Specifically, cunnilingus
December 1, 2013 2:12 PM Subscribe
Why is Hollywood so afraid of oral sex? Why is oral sex hard for Hollywood? Evan Rachel Wood slams MPAA for censoring sex scene in her new film.
This Film is Not Yet Rated examined this issue.
posted by mlis at 2:38 PM on December 1, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by mlis at 2:38 PM on December 1, 2013 [16 favorites]
"an industry dominated by men who still find women strange, even disgusting."
posted by dhartung at 2:38 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by dhartung at 2:38 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
*shrugs*
Hollywood isn't the only place to get your movie fill from. Plenty of European and Asian films explore the wider and deeper aspects of adult relationships and lovemaking, so there's no need to get your panties in a bunch or even wear any. Someobdy should head over to AskMe and beg for a list of these sort of films.
I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:38 PM on December 1, 2013
Hollywood isn't the only place to get your movie fill from. Plenty of European and Asian films explore the wider and deeper aspects of adult relationships and lovemaking, so there's no need to get your panties in a bunch or even wear any. Someobdy should head over to AskMe and beg for a list of these sort of films.
I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:38 PM on December 1, 2013
Interesting that Black Swan got an R rating. Oral sex on a woman is too much unless it's satisfying some het guy lesbian fantasy? I think the point made that its seen as an act in which only the woman is getting off - and God forbid! - is maybe getting to the truth, even though its an incorrect assumption.
posted by billiebee at 2:40 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 2:40 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
It's clearly a really stupid (and weird) double standard. But it's not at all clear to me that it's about shaming women for enjoying sex or any such thing...I mean, that's one thing it might be... But that seems like an unproven hypothesis at best. I know that in the world of literature and "film" you get to throw around interpretations without proof...but I'd really like to know what's up with this weirdness. I mean, men (and women) (some anyway) also enjoy going down on women...so maybe they're the ones being shamed here...or maybe both are. The point is just: it's not as obvious as it's being made out to be. It's clearly fucked-up...but it's not so obvious why it's fucked up. I mean, the contrast with violence doesn't really help much, since that doesn't really address the question of the (alleged) differential treatment of fellatio and cunnilingus. That's about the difference between the way violence (in general) and sex (in general) are treated. But we want to know why two apparently equivalent sex acts are being (allegedly) treated differentially. (I wonder, semi-incidentally, if there are numbers about scenes depicting fellatio vs. scenes depicting cunnilingus?)
Also: jeez, get a blog. Twitter was a dumb idea even when it was for getting out fragmentary thoughts. If you're going to try to actually say something, why on Earth would you do it in 140 character chunks?
posted by Fists O'Fury at 2:43 PM on December 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Also: jeez, get a blog. Twitter was a dumb idea even when it was for getting out fragmentary thoughts. If you're going to try to actually say something, why on Earth would you do it in 140 character chunks?
posted by Fists O'Fury at 2:43 PM on December 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Hollywood isn't the only place to get your movie fill from. Plenty of European and Asian films explore the wider and deeper aspects of adult relationships and lovemaking, so there's no need to get your panties in a bunch or even wear any.
Right, but Hollywood is the dominant film culture in the English speaking world and if it's censoring these kind of scenes, it's worth asking why and how it can be changed. Saying you can get your cunnilingus elsewhere is beside the point.
I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
One film from 20 years ago. I'm not sure that proves your point.
posted by crossoverman at 2:44 PM on December 1, 2013 [35 favorites]
Right, but Hollywood is the dominant film culture in the English speaking world and if it's censoring these kind of scenes, it's worth asking why and how it can be changed. Saying you can get your cunnilingus elsewhere is beside the point.
I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
One film from 20 years ago. I'm not sure that proves your point.
posted by crossoverman at 2:44 PM on December 1, 2013 [35 favorites]
Brandon, I don't see this so much as "I wanna see some oral sex, dammit, gimme" as "why do Hollywood films in particular place so much negative emphasis on oral sex scenes, and how can that be fixed?"
Snyder (Zack Snyder! of all people) "said he edited it down to the point where it looked like he was taking advantage of her. That's the only way he could get a PG-13" -- in other words, the MPAA ratings board thought that the woman receiving pleasure from the act made it worse than a depiction of borderline sexual assault. That's deeply weird.
posted by dhartung at 2:45 PM on December 1, 2013 [39 favorites]
Snyder (Zack Snyder! of all people) "said he edited it down to the point where it looked like he was taking advantage of her. That's the only way he could get a PG-13" -- in other words, the MPAA ratings board thought that the woman receiving pleasure from the act made it worse than a depiction of borderline sexual assault. That's deeply weird.
posted by dhartung at 2:45 PM on December 1, 2013 [39 favorites]
Interesting that Black Swan got an R rating. Oral sex on a woman is too much unless it's satisfying some het guy lesbian fantasy?
But that's to illicitly turn a counterexample into confirmation.
Of course it would be important if we we really could establish that only males doing down on females was verboten... That'd make the puzzle even weirder.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 2:46 PM on December 1, 2013
But that's to illicitly turn a counterexample into confirmation.
Of course it would be important if we we really could establish that only males doing down on females was verboten... That'd make the puzzle even weirder.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 2:46 PM on December 1, 2013
Also:
I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
Did you read the second link?
I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
Did you read the second link?
Compare it with films that use cunnilingus purely as a sex act: Basic Instinct, which cut its scene for censors, and Blue Valentine, which was subjected to an NC-17 rating for not doing so. The latter provoked a disgusted reaction from producer Harvey Weinstein, who compared it with the lower R-rating for Piranha 3D: "A penis got coughed up in the movie by a piranha!" An image of anti-female body horror and castration anxiety if ever there was one, if you like to read into your B-movies.posted by zombieflanders at 2:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I mean, the contrast with violence doesn't really help much, since that doesn't really address the question of the (alleged) differential treatment of fellatio and cunnilingus
I think the implication of showing sexual assault is okay but female pleasure is not is deeply troubling, but I also wonder about the depiction of fellatio - I can't think of a heap of examples of that in mainstream films. But I bet a film wouldn't be cut or censored for having that in there.
posted by crossoverman at 2:49 PM on December 1, 2013
I think the implication of showing sexual assault is okay but female pleasure is not is deeply troubling, but I also wonder about the depiction of fellatio - I can't think of a heap of examples of that in mainstream films. But I bet a film wouldn't be cut or censored for having that in there.
posted by crossoverman at 2:49 PM on December 1, 2013
One film that deals with cunnilingus in a sensitive, mature, and thoughtful way is Kingpin. Not.
posted by XMLicious at 2:52 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 2:52 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
My mom used to quip that American films shown in Sweden have the violent scenes censored, and Swedish films shown in the US have the nudity/sex scenes censored.
posted by rtha at 2:55 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by rtha at 2:55 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Just to show how deeply this reaches, I worked for years for a woman who was in charge of a bullpen of comedy writers. She routinely allowed, approved, and encouraged jokes about male appendages and blow jobs and whatnot, but was was actively appalled by similar references on the distaff side. She seemed to be otherwise unnotable in gender situations; an alpha female in a tough male world, in charge of what was officially funny and not at all given to bowing down to anyone's ideas on the matter; stable heterosexual relationship with what seemed to be a very nice normal guy. But extremely uncomfortable with casual references to female sexuality and quite the opposite re: men. Always struck me as very odd.
posted by umberto at 2:56 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by umberto at 2:56 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
umberto, it sounds like you worked for the mirror-universe Liz Lemon.
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:59 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:59 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
But extremely uncomfortable with casual references to female sexuality and quite the opposite re: men. Always struck me as very odd.
This is one way for women to get ahead (no pun intended) in a "man's world" - by being one of the guys. It's also been drummed into her - and all of us - that the word penis is funny but the word vagina... is rarely said on television.
posted by crossoverman at 2:59 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is one way for women to get ahead (no pun intended) in a "man's world" - by being one of the guys. It's also been drummed into her - and all of us - that the word penis is funny but the word vagina... is rarely said on television.
posted by crossoverman at 2:59 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yeah, at first I thought her take on this was because popularity, audience ratings, sales, she knew what the patriarchy wanted, etc. But it became pretty clear that she personally did not think that stuff was appropriate for an audience and would not be brooked. We had a couple of female staffers who would get pretty frustrated. I recall a discussion of whether or not you can accuse someone of sexually discriminating against their own gender: which I'm still curious about. But as with most writer talk it fizzled and we wrote more dick jokes.
posted by umberto at 3:05 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by umberto at 3:05 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
one reason i love "the good wife" is just how often they have women being the instigator and enjoy-er of sex. i remember a bit of a stir was caused when the main character received oral sex from her (separated) husband with, i believe, no reciprocation.
posted by nadawi at 3:06 PM on December 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 3:06 PM on December 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Yeah, The Good Wife is revolutionary, as far as I'm concerned. Turns out the people who make the show feel the same way.
posted by katemonster at 3:10 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by katemonster at 3:10 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I recall a discussion of whether or not you can accuse someone of sexually discriminating against their own gender: which I'm still curious about.
I think accusing them of it is tricky, but there's internalised misogyny everywhere.
posted by crossoverman at 3:14 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think accusing them of it is tricky, but there's internalised misogyny everywhere.
posted by crossoverman at 3:14 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
Coming Home has an oral sex scene....though the implication is that this is the only way Jon Voigt's paraplegic character can make love to Jane Fonda's.
posted by brujita at 3:15 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 3:15 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Was just about to mention Coming Home. For some reason I ended up seeing that with my mom and my sister in the theater when I was 14. Very uncomfortable.
posted by octothorpe at 3:22 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by octothorpe at 3:22 PM on December 1, 2013
Wondering if the "well it was the only way he could" thing is more palatable to censors
The censors were probably worried about a backlash from actual handicapped people.
posted by localroger at 3:27 PM on December 1, 2013
The censors were probably worried about a backlash from actual handicapped people.
posted by localroger at 3:27 PM on December 1, 2013
Or maybe Hollywood's just a shame and we should all accept that.
posted by carping demon at 3:30 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by carping demon at 3:30 PM on December 1, 2013
Viggo Mortensen orally pleasures Maria (very popular on the blue today) Bello in A History of Violence. No idea whether this impacted the film's rating.
posted by biffa at 3:37 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 3:37 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
> I'm not even sure it's a Hollywood problem, as Basic Instinct had scene of cunnilingus and that out a little over 20 years ago.
One act of cunnilingus twenty years ago? I guess some people are really easily satisfied.
posted by benito.strauss at 3:44 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
One act of cunnilingus twenty years ago? I guess some people are really easily satisfied.
posted by benito.strauss at 3:44 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Viggo Mortensen orally pleasures Maria (very popular on the blue today) Bello in A History of Violence. No idea whether this impacted the film's rating.
That film was discussed so much because of its brutal violence, people probably missed the cunnilingus.
posted by crossoverman at 3:49 PM on December 1, 2013
That film was discussed so much because of its brutal violence, people probably missed the cunnilingus.
posted by crossoverman at 3:49 PM on December 1, 2013
IIRC the scene in the Mexican brothel in BotFoJ was insinuated as being woman on top PIV.
posted by brujita at 3:50 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by brujita at 3:50 PM on December 1, 2013
A History of Violence was discussed in This film is not Yet Rated specifically because of the oral sex scene. If I remember correctly they had to fight the censor to keep the scene in the film.
posted by fullerine at 3:53 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by fullerine at 3:53 PM on December 1, 2013
There's also Shame and The Counselor recently, as mentioned in the article. (Edit: looks like Shame is NC-17, which isn't surprising.)
posted by naju at 3:54 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by naju at 3:54 PM on December 1, 2013
fullerine, that was The Cooler.
Censuring the Movie Censors
posted by mlis at 4:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Censuring the Movie Censors
posted by mlis at 4:03 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Key and Peele
It took The Simpsons at least 7 full seasons to get to the point where there was a Simpsons Quote For Everything. And even then it was usually somewhat out of context. But Key & Peele in 3 (incomplete) seasons have officially reached the point where there is a Key & Peele Sketch For Everything. Congratulate the boys, very few pieces of entertainment in history of reached this lofty state of being.
There's also Shame and The Counselor recently, as mentioned in the article.
And both with Michael Fassbender. And The Cooler had Maria Bello, who was also in A History Of Violence. Which means a grand total of nothing. But never the less is enough to make me wonder if Fassbender and Maria Bello advocate for cunninlingus scenes.
Unlike that bastard Michael Douglas, who blames it for cancer.
posted by mediocre at 4:04 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
It took The Simpsons at least 7 full seasons to get to the point where there was a Simpsons Quote For Everything. And even then it was usually somewhat out of context. But Key & Peele in 3 (incomplete) seasons have officially reached the point where there is a Key & Peele Sketch For Everything. Congratulate the boys, very few pieces of entertainment in history of reached this lofty state of being.
There's also Shame and The Counselor recently, as mentioned in the article.
And both with Michael Fassbender. And The Cooler had Maria Bello, who was also in A History Of Violence. Which means a grand total of nothing. But never the less is enough to make me wonder if Fassbender and Maria Bello advocate for cunninlingus scenes.
Unlike that bastard Michael Douglas, who blames it for cancer.
posted by mediocre at 4:04 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
IIRC the scene in the Mexican brothel in BotFoJ was insinuated as being woman on top PIV.
Nnnnno, I remember it as woman on top cunnilingus.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 PM on December 1, 2013
Nnnnno, I remember it as woman on top cunnilingus.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:08 PM on December 1, 2013
Is it possible that the scene was particularly graphic? More than similar scenes in the other movies mentioned here?
posted by amtho at 4:18 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by amtho at 4:18 PM on December 1, 2013
Another movie depicting cunnilingus, though "off screen": Pulp Fiction.
Bruce Willis's character, Butch, goes down on his girlfriend after coming home from killing the guy in the boxing ring. As the camera remains focused on the girl's upper body and/or face only during the scene, it is not clear what he is doing, however the dialogue is very clear in the line "will you give me oral pleasure?" followed by "will you kiss it?".
Of course, with all the other rather amazingly horribly violent things depicted in that movie, it's no wonder everyone forgets this scene. I mean, later we are witness to Ving Rhames being anally raped.
What's even stranger still is that the released version was actually cut down by Quentin Tarantino to achieve the R rating that it has. So there was definitely more/worse/other things in the film that were sacrificed to keep the scenes that are in the film.
posted by daq at 4:26 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Bruce Willis's character, Butch, goes down on his girlfriend after coming home from killing the guy in the boxing ring. As the camera remains focused on the girl's upper body and/or face only during the scene, it is not clear what he is doing, however the dialogue is very clear in the line "will you give me oral pleasure?" followed by "will you kiss it?".
Of course, with all the other rather amazingly horribly violent things depicted in that movie, it's no wonder everyone forgets this scene. I mean, later we are witness to Ving Rhames being anally raped.
What's even stranger still is that the released version was actually cut down by Quentin Tarantino to achieve the R rating that it has. So there was definitely more/worse/other things in the film that were sacrificed to keep the scenes that are in the film.
posted by daq at 4:26 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
What episode does the Simpsons quote about cunnilingus come from?
But I didn't say stop.
posted by mediocre at 4:33 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
But I didn't say stop.
posted by mediocre at 4:33 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
American culture is comfortable with being afraid & in pain because that's what we're used to.
posted by bleep at 4:35 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:35 PM on December 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
I hate crappy arguments.
If you are going to make the claim that cunnilingus is less permissible in American movies than fellatio, then talking about how cunnilingus has been treated by the censors is only part of the argument. You have to compare it to how the censors have treated fellatio and how this is different.
This is a terrible, terrible argument.
posted by flarbuse at 4:39 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you are going to make the claim that cunnilingus is less permissible in American movies than fellatio, then talking about how cunnilingus has been treated by the censors is only part of the argument. You have to compare it to how the censors have treated fellatio and how this is different.
This is a terrible, terrible argument.
posted by flarbuse at 4:39 PM on December 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Well fellatio usually shows up in movies as part of a joke, and visually is rarely represented by more then a head popping up from below frame. Cunnilingus on the other hand I'm unsure (short of Key & Peele and The Simpsons clips above) is rarely part of a joke, and dramatic depictions are even rarer. So treatment by the "censors" is hard to define. Though I am referring strictly to television.
Interesting, the earliest cunnilingus joke I can remember on television was from an episode of It's Garry Shandlings Show. But that was dog on woman, so I'm unsure if it counts.
posted by mediocre at 4:40 PM on December 1, 2013
Interesting, the earliest cunnilingus joke I can remember on television was from an episode of It's Garry Shandlings Show. But that was dog on woman, so I'm unsure if it counts.
posted by mediocre at 4:40 PM on December 1, 2013
one reason i love "the good wife" is just how often they have women being the instigator and enjoy-er of sex. i remember a bit of a stir was caused when the main character received oral sex from her (separated) husband with, i believe, no reciprocation.
That is one of the most deeply sexy, surprising scenes I've seen on American network television, and I remember being thrilled and very surprised by it. I'm pretty sure it's the only time I've seen a sex scene on American television be entirely about a woman's pleasure, and be so thoroughly focused on the woman and how desirable she is. And more than that, Alicia wasn't desirable to Peter in that moment only for her looks. Peter was turned on by seeing her be awesome at court. I'm frankly surprised it made it past the censors, even if it was fade to black.
posted by yasaman at 4:43 PM on December 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
That is one of the most deeply sexy, surprising scenes I've seen on American network television, and I remember being thrilled and very surprised by it. I'm pretty sure it's the only time I've seen a sex scene on American television be entirely about a woman's pleasure, and be so thoroughly focused on the woman and how desirable she is. And more than that, Alicia wasn't desirable to Peter in that moment only for her looks. Peter was turned on by seeing her be awesome at court. I'm frankly surprised it made it past the censors, even if it was fade to black.
posted by yasaman at 4:43 PM on December 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
The original American Werewolf in London has a great cunnilingus scene. But then again the whole movie is pretty awesome.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:56 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 4:56 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know there's a lot of pressure on Hollywood films to get a PG or PG-13 rating to get the widest possible audience and therefore the most $$$, but is opening with an NC-17 or R rating really such an automatic economic death sentence that it's a de facto decree for censorship?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:58 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:58 PM on December 1, 2013
Cunnilingus in Hollywood films? I've got two words for you: Monkey Shines.
posted by zakur at 4:59 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by zakur at 4:59 PM on December 1, 2013
there is a Key & Peele Sketch For Everything.
Monorail?
posted by nickmark at 5:05 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Monorail?
posted by nickmark at 5:05 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
You have to compare it to how the censors have treated fellatio and how this is different.
Find me an example of a film that was edited or censored to get a better rating because there was a depiction of fellatio in it.
I'm not saying there isn't one, I'd just be surprised.
I'm not saying the arguments in these articles are fully rigorous, but there are at least a couple of clear examples of cunnilingus scenes being edited or cut to achieve a better rating. I am yet to hear of the equivalent happening over a scene of fellatio.
posted by crossoverman at 5:17 PM on December 1, 2013
Find me an example of a film that was edited or censored to get a better rating because there was a depiction of fellatio in it.
I'm not saying there isn't one, I'd just be surprised.
I'm not saying the arguments in these articles are fully rigorous, but there are at least a couple of clear examples of cunnilingus scenes being edited or cut to achieve a better rating. I am yet to hear of the equivalent happening over a scene of fellatio.
posted by crossoverman at 5:17 PM on December 1, 2013
What episode does the Simpsons quote about cunnilingus come from?
But I didn't say stop.
Haha. Item shot down (desnarked?). But given that the Simpsons is now entering its 63rd season, it almost logically must have a joke for every subject.
posted by dgaicun at 5:19 PM on December 1, 2013
But I didn't say stop.
Haha. Item shot down (desnarked?). But given that the Simpsons is now entering its 63rd season, it almost logically must have a joke for every subject.
posted by dgaicun at 5:19 PM on December 1, 2013
Opening with an NC-17 rating is basically an economic death sentence, because nearly no movie theaters (that aren't specifically adult movie theaters) will show it.
It seems like there are a lot fewer high-profile R-rated movies than there used to be -- I read somewhere that with the proliferation of internet porn, there just isn't that much that's titillating about the nudity in an R-rated movie, but it doesn't seem like that could be the only explanation. Maybe it's more that studios (even more than previously) are going after the really big blockbusters, and it's hard to have a really big blockbuster that you can't sell to 12-year-olds.
At least according to Box Office Mojo, only 4 of this year's top 20 movies were rated R -- and none of the top 10.
posted by Jeanne at 5:22 PM on December 1, 2013
It seems like there are a lot fewer high-profile R-rated movies than there used to be -- I read somewhere that with the proliferation of internet porn, there just isn't that much that's titillating about the nudity in an R-rated movie, but it doesn't seem like that could be the only explanation. Maybe it's more that studios (even more than previously) are going after the really big blockbusters, and it's hard to have a really big blockbuster that you can't sell to 12-year-olds.
At least according to Box Office Mojo, only 4 of this year's top 20 movies were rated R -- and none of the top 10.
posted by Jeanne at 5:22 PM on December 1, 2013
That yt is one of the most deeply sexy, surprising scenes I've seen on American network television, and I remember being thrilled and very surprised by it.
I hadn't seen that before, and count me surprised as well. If this represents a new direction for TV, I'm all for it.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 PM on December 1, 2013
I thought SNL did a sketch on cunnilingus quite some time ago?
posted by Pastor of Muppets at 5:27 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Pastor of Muppets at 5:27 PM on December 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Australian Office of Film and Literature Classification initially refused Dead Man a classification due to a fellatio scene. But that was because of the implied sexual violence, due to the felatee holding a gun. The decision was reversed on appeal, and the film was released in Australia under an R 18+ classfiication.
posted by misfish at 5:30 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by misfish at 5:30 PM on December 1, 2013
Opening with an NC-17 rating is basically an economic death sentence, because nearly no movie theaters (that aren't specifically adult movie theaters) will show it.
Yes. This is a big deal. My understanding is it used to be in a lot of leases for shopping-mall cinemas (makes a kind of sense — nobody at the mall-management level wants potential legal liability for some young kid sneaking into a sexually explicit film), some of which are still in effect, and when the NC-17 was announced to "replace" the X rating, movie theaters by and large simply shifted their policies against showing X-rated movies to apply them to NC-17 films. It was news recently when Cinemark, which owns 300 theaters, announced that it would allow one screen to show Blue Is the Warmest Color.
Once upon a time, an even bigger deal was that most newspapers would refuse ads for NC-17 films, but with the decline of newspapers as a source for movie info, that's probably not as big a deal now.
But make no mistake — the MPAA's ratings board functions on behalf of the major studios. It's a proxy more than any kind of adversary. Martin Scorsese is contractually obligated to deliver The Wolf of Wall Street with an R rating. In order to do that, he has to tangle with the ratings board. His bosses at Paramount wrote the R rating into his "director's cut" contract specifically so they could wash their hands of the whole thing. It's very frustrating if you're a filmmaker.
posted by Mothlight at 5:35 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yes. This is a big deal. My understanding is it used to be in a lot of leases for shopping-mall cinemas (makes a kind of sense — nobody at the mall-management level wants potential legal liability for some young kid sneaking into a sexually explicit film), some of which are still in effect, and when the NC-17 was announced to "replace" the X rating, movie theaters by and large simply shifted their policies against showing X-rated movies to apply them to NC-17 films. It was news recently when Cinemark, which owns 300 theaters, announced that it would allow one screen to show Blue Is the Warmest Color.
Once upon a time, an even bigger deal was that most newspapers would refuse ads for NC-17 films, but with the decline of newspapers as a source for movie info, that's probably not as big a deal now.
But make no mistake — the MPAA's ratings board functions on behalf of the major studios. It's a proxy more than any kind of adversary. Martin Scorsese is contractually obligated to deliver The Wolf of Wall Street with an R rating. In order to do that, he has to tangle with the ratings board. His bosses at Paramount wrote the R rating into his "director's cut" contract specifically so they could wash their hands of the whole thing. It's very frustrating if you're a filmmaker.
posted by Mothlight at 5:35 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
So, something missing from this discussion is who is actually setting the MPAA ratings, and that's a rotating cast of parents from Southern California. Seriously, it's all people with kids between, like, seven and fourteen. From my perspective, that makes the synecdoche of "Hollywood" a bit of a mistake. America's parents apparently don't want to see cunnilingus, and think it's extra inappropriate for kids.
Why that is, who can say?
(As for the vs. blowjobs thing, there are tons of blowjob jokes/references/scenes in movies. Though unfortunately, googling for this, well, this is the least NSFW answer.)
posted by klangklangston at 5:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why that is, who can say?
(As for the vs. blowjobs thing, there are tons of blowjob jokes/references/scenes in movies. Though unfortunately, googling for this, well, this is the least NSFW answer.)
posted by klangklangston at 5:42 PM on December 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hollywood doesn't fear oral sex depictions. The American people do.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:46 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by Ironmouth at 5:46 PM on December 1, 2013
Some background conversation, for those who might be interested (I'm sure these must have been posted here before, somewhere or other):
2005 obituary for Susan Lydon, author of "The Politics of Orgasm" (1970)
"The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm" by Anne Koedt (1970)
Sara Davidson, "The Politically Incorrect Orgasm" (1997)
posted by sophieblue at 5:54 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
2005 obituary for Susan Lydon, author of "The Politics of Orgasm" (1970)
"The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm" by Anne Koedt (1970)
Sara Davidson, "The Politically Incorrect Orgasm" (1997)
posted by sophieblue at 5:54 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Why that is, who can say?
Not to be reductive, but because sexism, right? If blow jobs are good fun and cunnilingus is terra incognita, that's the obvious answer. It's OK for women to go down on men, but a man going down on a woman is somehow perverse or otherwise objectionable because of some weird culturally ingrained idea about how men and women are supposed to behave in bed.
posted by Mothlight at 6:00 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Not to be reductive, but because sexism, right? If blow jobs are good fun and cunnilingus is terra incognita, that's the obvious answer. It's OK for women to go down on men, but a man going down on a woman is somehow perverse or otherwise objectionable because of some weird culturally ingrained idea about how men and women are supposed to behave in bed.
posted by Mothlight at 6:00 PM on December 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I wonder if fellatio shows up more in Hollywood movies and television because traditionally the phallus has been an object of mirth.
Actors in ancient Greek comedies were often equipped with a long leather phallus, a trope used with even more comedic effect in Lysistrata.
Hollywood does seem to have a love affair with the penis, or phallic objects in general. A trip to the video store (if such a place still exists in your neighbourhood) is a great place to check out the placement of guns, bowling pins, swords, daggers, baseball bats, towers, fists... usually between the spread legs of a female character.
You can always tell foreign films (or films intended for women) by the lack of phallic objects on the box cover.
The solution, of course, is turn this dreck off. If the product (ie, pretty much 99.9% of Hollywood films) is idiotic in the first place I'm not sure if adding cunnilingus is going to improve things at all.
I suppose Hollywood movies have colonized cinema in the rest of the world, but I also suppose those people, if they want to see cunnilingus on film, can decide not to watch Hollywood movies on their own.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:06 PM on December 1, 2013
Actors in ancient Greek comedies were often equipped with a long leather phallus, a trope used with even more comedic effect in Lysistrata.
Hollywood does seem to have a love affair with the penis, or phallic objects in general. A trip to the video store (if such a place still exists in your neighbourhood) is a great place to check out the placement of guns, bowling pins, swords, daggers, baseball bats, towers, fists... usually between the spread legs of a female character.
You can always tell foreign films (or films intended for women) by the lack of phallic objects on the box cover.
The solution, of course, is turn this dreck off. If the product (ie, pretty much 99.9% of Hollywood films) is idiotic in the first place I'm not sure if adding cunnilingus is going to improve things at all.
I suppose Hollywood movies have colonized cinema in the rest of the world, but I also suppose those people, if they want to see cunnilingus on film, can decide not to watch Hollywood movies on their own.
posted by KokuRyu at 6:06 PM on December 1, 2013
I'm not sure if adding cunnilingus is going to improve things at all.
Cunnilingus improves everything.
posted by crossoverman at 6:15 PM on December 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Cunnilingus improves everything.
posted by crossoverman at 6:15 PM on December 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
I don't think the argument is that there's a double standard between men getting it vs women getting it, it's that it makes no sense that watching almost any level of violence is allowable, watching women getting sexually abused is allowable, but watching women enjoying sex is unwatchable. That's what Evan Rachel Wood is referring to anyway.
posted by bleep at 6:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:47 PM on December 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
>I'm not sure if adding cunnilingus is going to improve things at all.
>Cunnilingus improves everything.
This movie suffers from a terrible screenplay, and can use all the controversy they can muck up for it.
posted by Catblack at 7:54 PM on December 1, 2013
>Cunnilingus improves everything.
This movie suffers from a terrible screenplay, and can use all the controversy they can muck up for it.
posted by Catblack at 7:54 PM on December 1, 2013
Bound got an R rating and definitely had girl-on-girl oral sex in it. I mean, not that it's relevant to this argument, and also a long time ago, but as long as we're listing movies, y'know.
posted by gingerest at 7:58 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by gingerest at 7:58 PM on December 1, 2013
This movie suffers from a terrible screenplay, and can use all the controversy they can muck up for it.
I'm not sure which of these movies you're leveling that accusation against, but I'm pretty sure if you think they threw in cunnilingus just to generate publicity... you'd be mistaken.
posted by crossoverman at 8:18 PM on December 1, 2013
I'm not sure which of these movies you're leveling that accusation against, but I'm pretty sure if you think they threw in cunnilingus just to generate publicity... you'd be mistaken.
posted by crossoverman at 8:18 PM on December 1, 2013
Bound got an R rating and definitely had girl-on-girl oral sex in it.
I think it didn't, actually. I remember being extremely disappointed.
posted by elizardbits at 8:38 PM on December 1, 2013
I think it didn't, actually. I remember being extremely disappointed.
posted by elizardbits at 8:38 PM on December 1, 2013
I'm amazed no one has mentioned "Re-Animator."
posted by webmutant at 9:09 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by webmutant at 9:09 PM on December 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
one reason i love "the good wife" is just how often they have women being the instigator and enjoy-er of sex.
scandal is also really good at men and women (and two men) going down on each other now and again...
posted by fallacy of the beard at 9:23 PM on December 1, 2013
scandal is also really good at men and women (and two men) going down on each other now and again...
posted by fallacy of the beard at 9:23 PM on December 1, 2013
And Six Feet Under was good at it, too. I'm beginning to think television is the go-to place for cunnilingus.
posted by crossoverman at 9:48 PM on December 1, 2013
posted by crossoverman at 9:48 PM on December 1, 2013
I thought SNL did a sketch on cunnilingus quite some time ago?
Kinda lingers, Mel.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:23 AM on December 2, 2013
Kinda lingers, Mel.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:23 AM on December 2, 2013
Cunnilingus and psychiatry brought us to this.
posted by honey-barbara at 6:39 AM on December 2, 2013
posted by honey-barbara at 6:39 AM on December 2, 2013
Hollywood isn't the only place to get your movie fill from. Plenty of European and Asian films explore the wider and deeper aspects of adult relationships and lovemaking, so there's no need to get your panties in a bunch or even wear any.
Except that those films need to go through the MPAA rating process as well if they're going to get screenings outside of large urban markets, a one-night arthouse tour, and likely a North American video release as well. (But who am I kidding, it probably won't get screened anyway unless it has Peter Jackson's name on it or is co-produced with an American studio.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 8:58 AM on December 2, 2013
Except that those films need to go through the MPAA rating process as well if they're going to get screenings outside of large urban markets, a one-night arthouse tour, and likely a North American video release as well. (But who am I kidding, it probably won't get screened anyway unless it has Peter Jackson's name on it or is co-produced with an American studio.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 8:58 AM on December 2, 2013
Anyone besides me see The Waterdance?
It's a semi-autobiographical story, centering on the rehab experiences of Joel, a young writer who becomes paraplegic after a hiking accident.
The rehab hosts a presentation and Q-and-A session on paraplegic sexual function, in which men who've been paralyzed for a while field questions from the newly paraplegic. I particularly remember this exchange between an older paraplegic man who enjoys performing cunnilingus and a younger paraplegic who's aghast at the thought:
It's a semi-autobiographical story, centering on the rehab experiences of Joel, a young writer who becomes paraplegic after a hiking accident.
The rehab hosts a presentation and Q-and-A session on paraplegic sexual function, in which men who've been paralyzed for a while field questions from the newly paraplegic. I particularly remember this exchange between an older paraplegic man who enjoys performing cunnilingus and a younger paraplegic who's aghast at the thought:
Younger man: You mean you go down on a woman?posted by virago at 9:46 AM on December 2, 2013
Older man: Every chance I get.
But given that the Simpsons is now entering its 63rd season, it almost logically must have a joke for every subject.
It wasn't really what I meant when I said A Simpsons Quote For Every Occasion, that there would be a reference directly to cunnilingus. Just that there would be an applicable quote for the situation of cunnilingus conversation.
I was going to go with this one.
But the way the quote played out left it better used for other sexual conducts.
posted by mediocre at 10:09 AM on December 2, 2013
It wasn't really what I meant when I said A Simpsons Quote For Every Occasion, that there would be a reference directly to cunnilingus. Just that there would be an applicable quote for the situation of cunnilingus conversation.
I was going to go with this one.
But the way the quote played out left it better used for other sexual conducts.
posted by mediocre at 10:09 AM on December 2, 2013
But it's not at all clear to me that it's about shaming women for enjoying sex or any such thing...I mean, that's one thing it might be... But that seems like an unproven hypothesis at best.
As I recall, This Film is Not Yet Rated did a pretty good job of proving that hypothesis.
posted by homunculus at 3:29 PM on December 6, 2013
As I recall, This Film is Not Yet Rated did a pretty good job of proving that hypothesis.
posted by homunculus at 3:29 PM on December 6, 2013
Opening with an NC-17 rating is basically an economic death sentence, because nearly no movie theaters (that aren't specifically adult movie theaters) will show it.
That's generally true, though there may be exceptions: NC-17 Rating Wouldn’t Necessarily Spell Financial Doom For Nymphomaniac
posted by homunculus at 3:30 PM on December 6, 2013
That's generally true, though there may be exceptions: NC-17 Rating Wouldn’t Necessarily Spell Financial Doom For Nymphomaniac
posted by homunculus at 3:30 PM on December 6, 2013
That's generally true, though there may be exceptions: NC-17 Rating Wouldn’t Necessarily Spell Financial Doom For Nymphomaniac
Five and a half hours of Lars von Trier filming sex scenes sounds even less appealing than 9 Songs, a movie with explicit sex that wasn't remotely sex and concert footage that I remember as being only slightly better than guy-with-a-camera-on-youtube.
(I have few doubts that there will be moments of cinematic beauty punctuating the meticulous deconstruction of the character and audience into utter hopelessness.)
Similarly, I was amused lately by a vintage 80s British detective show where a major scandalous plot line involved figuring out exactly who saw whom at a screening of Last Tango in Paris.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:22 PM on December 6, 2013
Five and a half hours of Lars von Trier filming sex scenes sounds even less appealing than 9 Songs, a movie with explicit sex that wasn't remotely sex and concert footage that I remember as being only slightly better than guy-with-a-camera-on-youtube.
(I have few doubts that there will be moments of cinematic beauty punctuating the meticulous deconstruction of the character and audience into utter hopelessness.)
Similarly, I was amused lately by a vintage 80s British detective show where a major scandalous plot line involved figuring out exactly who saw whom at a screening of Last Tango in Paris.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 7:22 PM on December 6, 2013
Why Did “Wolf of Wall Street” Get a Pass From the MPAA, When Feminist Films Don’t? A Conversation With Jill Soloway
posted by homunculus at 8:32 PM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 8:32 PM on December 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Why Did “Wolf of Wall Street” Get a Pass From the MPAA, When Feminist Films Don’t?
Scorcese.
posted by crossoverman at 9:07 PM on December 19, 2013
Scorcese.
posted by crossoverman at 9:07 PM on December 19, 2013
Scorcese.
On first glance, I thought that said, "Sorceress."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:25 AM on December 20, 2013
On first glance, I thought that said, "Sorceress."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:25 AM on December 20, 2013
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