exploded kernel-shrapnel that gets stuck in your teeth
January 14, 2014 10:52 AM Subscribe
I do like the moniker "Clown-Goblin" quite a bit.
posted by Windopaene at 11:03 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 11:03 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
I won't hear it and I won't respond to it.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:04 AM on January 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 11:04 AM on January 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
I believe MetaFilter has 170k+ varieties.
posted by mazola at 11:09 AM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by mazola at 11:09 AM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
The true contrarian is the one who is writing a comment as a reaction to the assumptions of the backlash to the backlash to the forelash.
Also, he's a jerk.
And has whiplash.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:12 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, he's a jerk.
And has whiplash.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:12 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think MetaFilter most has "but what about this marginal point that the person didn't fully address in a 500 word article!" concern-trolls. Concern-trolling is both a huge part of Internet Contrarianism missed by this article and the favorite sport of well-meaning MeFi progressives.
posted by JoeBlubaugh at 11:12 AM on January 14, 2014 [30 favorites]
posted by JoeBlubaugh at 11:12 AM on January 14, 2014 [30 favorites]
"You are all individuals!"
"I'm not!"
posted by workerant at 11:13 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
"I'm not!"
posted by workerant at 11:13 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Lists turn us all troll.
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I guess I'm a freethinker with occasional reverse contrarian tendencies. (For instance, I have an irrational hatred of Breaking Bad despite never having watched it, because for several consecutive months of my life there were zero websites that didn't somehow praise it or mention it or reference it. Also I took considerable pride in never having heard or seen "Gangnam Style" (until I accidentally did) or "Friday" or "What Does the Fox Say".)
Related to the Arbitrary Contrarian is the Bitter Curmudgeon. Nothing is fun, nothing is funny, nobody is smart, every idea is a bad one, food is awful, movies suck, everything is a scam, and everything is bullshit -- except for cats, coffee, and one obscure Belgian board game that's been out of print for 32 years.
posted by Foosnark at 11:18 AM on January 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
Related to the Arbitrary Contrarian is the Bitter Curmudgeon. Nothing is fun, nothing is funny, nobody is smart, every idea is a bad one, food is awful, movies suck, everything is a scam, and everything is bullshit -- except for cats, coffee, and one obscure Belgian board game that's been out of print for 32 years.
posted by Foosnark at 11:18 AM on January 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
Lists turn us all troll.
At least this one had all 5 points on one page.....
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:19 AM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
At least this one had all 5 points on one page.....
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:19 AM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
This latest outburst makes sense in context because White is the contrarian's contrarian, and heckling during applause is the purest possible distillation of the contrarian instinct.
Wouldn't the contrarian's contrarian just be agreeable?
posted by justkevin at 11:24 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't the contrarian's contrarian just be agreeable?
posted by justkevin at 11:24 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Concern-trolling is both a huge part of Internet Contrarianism missed by this article and the favorite sport of well-meaning MeFi progressives.
Concern-trolling is, I believe, actually the most deadly and insidious form. It's also the form most likely to have the troll not actually aware of what the fuck they're doing.
posted by GuyZero at 11:24 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Concern-trolling is, I believe, actually the most deadly and insidious form. It's also the form most likely to have the troll not actually aware of what the fuck they're doing.
posted by GuyZero at 11:24 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Concern-trolling is both a huge part of Internet Contrarianism missed by this article and the favorite sport of well-meaning MeFi progressives.
I see what you're saying here, but I don't think addressing these people and their points so dismissively, or in such a cavalier way, is really conducive to a productive conversation.
posted by Shepherd at 11:26 AM on January 14, 2014 [50 favorites]
I see what you're saying here, but I don't think addressing these people and their points so dismissively, or in such a cavalier way, is really conducive to a productive conversation.
posted by Shepherd at 11:26 AM on January 14, 2014 [50 favorites]
"and one obscure Belgian board game that's been out of print for 32 years."
It may be out of print but you can still occasionally find 'Deux Dépanneuses Camions Se Battent' in thrift stores in Ghent if you take the time to really look. It's not that difficult to locate, the rule-set is still considered an exemplary model of game theory, and its overall elegant gameplay is heads and shoulders above that of modern board games. I don't know why you wouldn't want to play it, honestly.
posted by komara at 11:27 AM on January 14, 2014 [19 favorites]
It may be out of print but you can still occasionally find 'Deux Dépanneuses Camions Se Battent' in thrift stores in Ghent if you take the time to really look. It's not that difficult to locate, the rule-set is still considered an exemplary model of game theory, and its overall elegant gameplay is heads and shoulders above that of modern board games. I don't know why you wouldn't want to play it, honestly.
posted by komara at 11:27 AM on January 14, 2014 [19 favorites]
Reverse contrarians hate things specifically because everybody else likes them.
Wait...aren't those just regular contrarians?
posted by yoink at 11:29 AM on January 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
Wait...aren't those just regular contrarians?
posted by yoink at 11:29 AM on January 14, 2014 [11 favorites]
Fun think I learned from a podcast the other day - the person who did the writing for Portal 2 is also arguably the creator of the listicle.
posted by Artw at 11:29 AM on January 14, 2014
posted by Artw at 11:29 AM on January 14, 2014
People who have heckled 12 Years A Slave:
1. Madonna
2. Armond White
posted by Artw at 11:30 AM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
1. Madonna
2. Armond White
posted by Artw at 11:30 AM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
So I come up to the entrance to the thread, but there's a sign in the way. Says You Must Be At Least This Ironic to Enter. Just a normal sign, like you'd put in front of a hotel ballroom that's been reserved or something. Doesn't point out a height or a weight or a number or anything. So I dunno how ironic I gotta be. But I also don't know how ironic I am. I've seen some pretty tough shit in my day. I hung out in Something Awful back in my time, and not just General Bullshit. But like I said, I dunno how ironic I gotta be to get in.
So I'm just on the point of going somewhere else, doing something else with my time, when I see some random asshole go in like it's nothing. And I figure, well, if that guy can get in, no one's gonna stop me. So I walk in.
Anyhow, that's how I come to be wearing this This Place Sucks And I Hate It sign, and why I'm still here.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:38 AM on January 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
So I'm just on the point of going somewhere else, doing something else with my time, when I see some random asshole go in like it's nothing. And I figure, well, if that guy can get in, no one's gonna stop me. So I walk in.
Anyhow, that's how I come to be wearing this This Place Sucks And I Hate It sign, and why I'm still here.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 11:38 AM on January 14, 2014 [16 favorites]
This article doesn't really say very much, does it?
On the people who consider themselves "free thinkers," who the hell doesn't, really?
On playing devil's advocate, it's a useful tool to keep your own attitudes healthy and honest. Sure it can lead to excess, but what doesn't?
Reverse contrarians and arbitrary contrarians seems close enough to each other as to be nearly indistinguishable, which seems to me to be a sign of list padding. And "clown goblins," well, just call them TROLLS, we all already know what we think of them.
What this article offers is a bucket of labels to stick to people so you can discard their opinions without having to think about them, which is exactly the kind of thinking the article itself is attempting to decry.
(In fact, I'd wager it's a bad idea to categorize people by what they like and dislike at all. People aren't what they consume.)
posted by JHarris at 11:42 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
On the people who consider themselves "free thinkers," who the hell doesn't, really?
On playing devil's advocate, it's a useful tool to keep your own attitudes healthy and honest. Sure it can lead to excess, but what doesn't?
Reverse contrarians and arbitrary contrarians seems close enough to each other as to be nearly indistinguishable, which seems to me to be a sign of list padding. And "clown goblins," well, just call them TROLLS, we all already know what we think of them.
What this article offers is a bucket of labels to stick to people so you can discard their opinions without having to think about them, which is exactly the kind of thinking the article itself is attempting to decry.
(In fact, I'd wager it's a bad idea to categorize people by what they like and dislike at all. People aren't what they consume.)
posted by JHarris at 11:42 AM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
I've never seen a concern troll
I hope to never see one
But I can tell you, anyhow
We should be on the lookout for them, because they could ruin the whole site.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:42 AM on January 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
I hope to never see one
But I can tell you, anyhow
We should be on the lookout for them, because they could ruin the whole site.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:42 AM on January 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
It may be out of print but you can still occasionally find 'Deux Dépanneuses Camions Se Battent' in thrift stores in Ghent if you take the time to really look.
Weird that you'd find a game with a French name in the most Flemish city in Flanders, isn't it?
/OBNOXIOUS FACTCHECKING CONTRATIAN
posted by entropone at 11:43 AM on January 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
Weird that you'd find a game with a French name in the most Flemish city in Flanders, isn't it?
/OBNOXIOUS FACTCHECKING CONTRATIAN
posted by entropone at 11:43 AM on January 14, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm worried that entropone is about to Flem out.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:45 AM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:45 AM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Don't ask me why the thrift stores stock what they do.
posted by komara at 11:45 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by komara at 11:45 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Can we go with clown instead of clown-goblin? Clowns, to a person, seem to be either goofy (and dismiss-able) or nightmare fuel (and to be hated). Clown-goblin seems a bit awkward to use.
posted by Slackermagee at 11:46 AM on January 14, 2014
posted by Slackermagee at 11:46 AM on January 14, 2014
None of this matters because you're all missing the larger point.
Which is that the list leaves out my least favorite guy, the Binkley.
For those looking for a taste of Armond Whites style, The Better-Than List for 2013 is a pure distillation.
Please don't ever make me look at something like that again.
posted by yerfatma at 11:47 AM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
Which is that the list leaves out my least favorite guy, the Binkley.
For those looking for a taste of Armond Whites style, The Better-Than List for 2013 is a pure distillation.
Please don't ever make me look at something like that again.
posted by yerfatma at 11:47 AM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
That's the response I was looking for, because I am a terrible person.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on January 14, 2014
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on January 14, 2014
Please don't ever make me look at something like that again.
To be fair, it is scientifically impossible to distinguish between an Armond White review and satire of the same.
posted by griphus at 11:54 AM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
To be fair, it is scientifically impossible to distinguish between an Armond White review and satire of the same.
posted by griphus at 11:54 AM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
I agree with at least one of his assessments - will leave which one as an exercise for the curious.
posted by Artw at 11:57 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:57 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I very much fear I have been all of these persons at one time or another, and most likely on this site. Except perhaps for the clown goblin and the concern troll. But definitely including the binky.
Apologies, but no promises.
posted by Diablevert at 11:59 AM on January 14, 2014
Apologies, but no promises.
posted by Diablevert at 11:59 AM on January 14, 2014
I have to give White credit. Making a solid, years-long career and getting famous out of essentially writing LOOK AT MEEEEEEE over and over again isn't an easy thing to pull off.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:01 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by middleclasstool at 12:01 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Concern-trolling is both a huge part of Internet Contrarianism missed by this article and the favorite sport of well-meaning MeFi progressives.
Not to be contrary myself, but I was under the impression that "concern-trolling" specifically referred to people who pretended to represent the opposite of their own views on internet forums to undermine the discussion and sow uncertainty. Wiktionary seems to back me up on this.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:08 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Not to be contrary myself, but I was under the impression that "concern-trolling" specifically referred to people who pretended to represent the opposite of their own views on internet forums to undermine the discussion and sow uncertainty. Wiktionary seems to back me up on this.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:08 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Making a solid, years-long career and getting famous out of essentially writing LOOK AT MEEEEEEE over and over again isn't an easy thing to pull off
And yet 90% of the people on the internet continue to attempt it every single day
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:10 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
And yet 90% of the people on the internet continue to attempt it every single day
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:10 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, honestly, is it possible to comment in this thread without being a contrarian or a reverse contrarian? Maybe a reverse reverse double dog contrarian?
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:13 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:13 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Isn't the real story here about flavor tripping?
posted by valentinepig at 12:14 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by valentinepig at 12:14 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
Not to be contrary myself, but I was under the impression that "concern-trolling" specifically referred to people who pretended to represent the opposite of their own views on internet forums to undermine the discussion and sow uncertainty. Wiktionary seems to back me up on this.
I think you're right. What seemed to be referred to above (e.g. "WTF?! This mashup of Miley twerking and a cat being declawed doesn't discuss men's right's activism at all!") is more axe-grinding than anything.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:15 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think you're right. What seemed to be referred to above (e.g. "WTF?! This mashup of Miley twerking and a cat being declawed doesn't discuss men's right's activism at all!") is more axe-grinding than anything.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:15 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Not to be contrary myself, but I was under the impression that "concern-trolling" specifically referred to people who pretended to represent the opposite of their own views on internet forums to undermine the discussion and sow uncertainty.
Yeah, that's certainly how the term was originally used, but it seems to have taken on a really diffuse and, to me, inscrutable meaning for many people.
posted by yoink at 12:17 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that's certainly how the term was originally used, but it seems to have taken on a really diffuse and, to me, inscrutable meaning for many people.
posted by yoink at 12:17 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
And what is the author of that list? A Meta-Contrarian who merely disagrees with disagreement?
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 12:19 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 12:19 PM on January 14, 2014
Trolling: Hey guise ... maybe sacrificing virgins to the Flesh Gods of Cleveland, is actually bad.
Concern Trolling: Now, I know we are all on board with sacrificing virgins to the Flesh Gods of Cleveland - I was going to volunteer myself, but you know, one thing led to another and we disqualified each other - but anyway: Should we really be so loud about Cleveland Flesh God sacrifice. And could we give it maybe another name. We don't want to alienate people after all.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:21 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Concern Trolling: Now, I know we are all on board with sacrificing virgins to the Flesh Gods of Cleveland - I was going to volunteer myself, but you know, one thing led to another and we disqualified each other - but anyway: Should we really be so loud about Cleveland Flesh God sacrifice. And could we give it maybe another name. We don't want to alienate people after all.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 12:21 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Clown-goblin seems a bit awkward to use.
Troll still works for me, bu there's always cloblin.
posted by JHarris at 12:23 PM on January 14, 2014
Troll still works for me, bu there's always cloblin.
posted by JHarris at 12:23 PM on January 14, 2014
IT'S CLOBLIN TIME
posted by jason_steakums at 12:24 PM on January 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:24 PM on January 14, 2014 [10 favorites]
Yeah, honestly, is it possible to comment in this thread without being a contrarian or a reverse contrarian?
Not only is it possible, it is essential to not being a contrarian! Being aware of this thread and not commenting in it is the most contrarian act of all.
posted by griphus at 12:24 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Not only is it possible, it is essential to not being a contrarian! Being aware of this thread and not commenting in it is the most contrarian act of all.
posted by griphus at 12:24 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Isn't the real story here about flavor tripping?
Reading that article, then reading these comments is actually very much like flavor tripping. In the context of the article, my sincerity taste buds are all crazy.
posted by ignignokt at 12:25 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Reading that article, then reading these comments is actually very much like flavor tripping. In the context of the article, my sincerity taste buds are all crazy.
posted by ignignokt at 12:25 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
And what is the author of that list? A Meta-Contrarian who merely disagrees with disagreement?
He disagrees with arbitrary contrarianism and with the practice of disagreeing with something just to start an argument or in order to pose as some original or superior thinker. And I'm with him on that. I find the contrarian approach to be of very limited use at best and at worst, to be a huge waste of time. Argue from honest conviction or not at all, because it's pointless and obnoxious to be picking arguments over nothing.
posted by orange swan at 12:26 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
He disagrees with arbitrary contrarianism and with the practice of disagreeing with something just to start an argument or in order to pose as some original or superior thinker. And I'm with him on that. I find the contrarian approach to be of very limited use at best and at worst, to be a huge waste of time. Argue from honest conviction or not at all, because it's pointless and obnoxious to be picking arguments over nothing.
posted by orange swan at 12:26 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
All of these distinctions and condemnations are out the window if the trolling (whatever the stripe) is truly, gorgeously, nuclear-bomb well written and/or hilarious. I appreciate a good set of flaming theses left on the doorstep of common sense. But it has to be at least as good as Hunter S. You don't have to be a pen-king to be thoughtful or celebratory. You do if you want to scorch the earth. But those who pull it off remain pretty dang valuable.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:30 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:30 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
He disagrees with arbitrary contrarianism and with the practice of disagreeing with something just to start an argument
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.posted by yoink at 12:31 PM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
The worst troll crime is the crime of being a bore.
posted by Artw at 12:34 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:34 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wait what if being boring > being interesting. MY COLUMN:
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:35 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:35 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
I came into this thread to argue vehemently in defense of Armond White, but then I guess I'd be the devil's advocate defending the clown-goblin, or something. Anyway, sometimes sustained projects that attempt to dig past people's cognitive reflexes and foster critical reflection can be worthwhile.
posted by naju at 12:39 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 12:39 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
The "devil's advocate" was originally a person in the Catholic Church who was appointed to argue against a canonization. I think that there's room for literally that exact role in film criticism and Armond White does an okay job, except he also gives positive reviews to awful movies just to get attention.
posted by vogon_poet at 12:41 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by vogon_poet at 12:41 PM on January 14, 2014
Won't somebody think of the motherfuckers?
posted by Mister_A at 12:42 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 12:42 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
On further reflection, here's an idea: sometimes there are valuable things to say that aren't, like, earnest opinions, man.
posted by naju at 12:45 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by naju at 12:45 PM on January 14, 2014
Winnie the Pooh>Extremely Loud & Incredibly Close is hard for me to argue against, despite either never having learned of or completely ignored a 2011 Winnie the Pooh, which I assume is awful.
posted by Artw at 12:45 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by Artw at 12:45 PM on January 14, 2014
Weird that you'd find a game with a French name in the most Flemish city in Flanders, isn't it?
Clearly the original poster meant Oeps, Dat Is Mijn Sleutel!, which is a far superior game to begin with.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:53 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Clearly the original poster meant Oeps, Dat Is Mijn Sleutel!, which is a far superior game to begin with.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:53 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Reverse contrarians hate things specifically because everybody else likes them.
Wait...aren't those just regular contrarians?
I think it's repetition repetition for emphasis emphasis. To be technically correct they would need to substitute extremely or very for reverse.
posted by bukvich at 12:53 PM on January 14, 2014
Wait...aren't those just regular contrarians?
I think it's repetition repetition for emphasis emphasis. To be technically correct they would need to substitute extremely or very for reverse.
posted by bukvich at 12:53 PM on January 14, 2014
except he also gives positive reviews to awful movies just to get attention.
That's one take. The other take is that he's trying to get people to take "disposable" pop culture seriously, and to stop being such snobs unwilling to give stuff like Resident Evil a chance. He's trying to poke past reflexive critical elitism, which seems like it's ultimately a project worth pursuing. I'm reminded of this 33 1/3 book about Celine Dion that sort of blew a bunch of my conceptions about art wide open.
posted by naju at 12:54 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
That's one take. The other take is that he's trying to get people to take "disposable" pop culture seriously, and to stop being such snobs unwilling to give stuff like Resident Evil a chance. He's trying to poke past reflexive critical elitism, which seems like it's ultimately a project worth pursuing. I'm reminded of this 33 1/3 book about Celine Dion that sort of blew a bunch of my conceptions about art wide open.
posted by naju at 12:54 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
But what if he wasn't a dick about it
posted by jason_steakums at 12:56 PM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 12:56 PM on January 14, 2014 [7 favorites]
On the people who consider themselves "free thinkers," who the hell doesn't, really?
I'm going for High Church with a twist.
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:59 PM on January 14, 2014
I'm going for High Church with a twist.
posted by StickyCarpet at 12:59 PM on January 14, 2014
The only thing I'm flat-out contrarian about* is Titanic, which I never saw sheerly because the amount of media blitz and cheesy songs made me hate it out of hand (and also, I have never gotten the fascination with the Titanic.) And now I don't have to see it because "I'll never let go, Jack!" and "Draw me like your French girls, Jack!", and heated discussions about whether both of them could fit on the floating piece of wood have made it into enough jokes that I feel like I already have.
I think I mostly hold out because a friend of mine was aghast that I never saw it, and still needles me about it, and I'll be damned if I'll give him the satisfaction of sitting through it on purpose.
*well the only one I can remember at the moment. I'm sure there's others.
posted by emjaybee at 1:08 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think I mostly hold out because a friend of mine was aghast that I never saw it, and still needles me about it, and I'll be damned if I'll give him the satisfaction of sitting through it on purpose.
*well the only one I can remember at the moment. I'm sure there's others.
posted by emjaybee at 1:08 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
So now naju is making me reconsider Armond White shortly after I agreed with at least 4 of the items on Armond White's Better-Than List for 2013.
Such a win for contrarianism is probably not what the author of the original piece hoped to inspire.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:09 PM on January 14, 2014
Such a win for contrarianism is probably not what the author of the original piece hoped to inspire.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:09 PM on January 14, 2014
As we danced through in this poptimism thread, there's nothing wrong with championing critically undervalued values like fun and accessibility (poptivism?) but if you buttress your theories by being mindlessly rude to everyone who values the more standard critical metrics like catharsis and formal beauty then you are in fact merely destroying rather than expanding the cultural architecture (popynicism?).
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:12 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 1:12 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
That's one take. The other take is that he's trying to get people to take "disposable" pop culture seriously, and to stop being such snobs unwilling to give stuff like Resident Evil a chance. He's trying to poke past reflexive critical elitism, which seems like it's ultimately a project worth pursuing. I'm reminded of this 33 1/3 book about Celine Dion that sort of blew a bunch of my conceptions about art wide open.
I appreciate people who that, and would argue that what White does isn't that... Or is that done so badly that it's like a parody of that.
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
I appreciate people who that, and would argue that what White does isn't that... Or is that done so badly that it's like a parody of that.
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
The people who make these lists--were they the children who could not have the food groups on their plates touch?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:19 PM on January 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:19 PM on January 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
if you buttress your theories by being mindlessly rude to everyone
A lot of what comes across as really rude in discussions like this on the internet can be toned down considerably by couching it in "I think" and "in my opinion" and such instead of treating the caveats as read, which comes across like someone's treating their opinion as a matter of fact. I always have to catch myself and mentally insert caveats like that (and, er, fail at it quite a bit if I'm not careful) because the difference between "This band sucks" and "I think this band sucks" really does help cut down the sense of hostility. Um. In my opinion.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:21 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
A lot of what comes across as really rude in discussions like this on the internet can be toned down considerably by couching it in "I think" and "in my opinion" and such instead of treating the caveats as read, which comes across like someone's treating their opinion as a matter of fact. I always have to catch myself and mentally insert caveats like that (and, er, fail at it quite a bit if I'm not careful) because the difference between "This band sucks" and "I think this band sucks" really does help cut down the sense of hostility. Um. In my opinion.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:21 PM on January 14, 2014 [4 favorites]
That's one take. The other take is that he's trying to get people to take "disposable" pop culture seriously, and to stop being such snobs unwilling to give stuff like Resident Evil a chance. He's trying to poke past reflexive critical elitism, which seems like it's ultimately a project worth pursuing. I'm reminded of this 33 1/3 book about Celine Dion that sort of blew a bunch of my conceptions about art wide open.
I love movies of all kinds (Fast and Furious is one of my favorite franchises) but there has to be a line and championing "Grown Ups 2" or "Jack and Jill" zooms across that line at super sonic speeds.
posted by kmz at 1:24 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I love movies of all kinds (Fast and Furious is one of my favorite franchises) but there has to be a line and championing "Grown Ups 2" or "Jack and Jill" zooms across that line at super sonic speeds.
posted by kmz at 1:24 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have been all five of these at times.
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:25 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:25 PM on January 14, 2014
he's trying to get people to take "disposable" pop culture seriously, and to stop being such snobs unwilling to give stuff like Resident Evil a chance. He's trying to poke past reflexive critical elitism, which seems like it's ultimately a project worth pursuing.
Which it is, of course, but which ultimately requires argument about why, say, Resident Evil is worth devoting time to. Or why one piece of pop culture is more worth one's time than another. (Why you should spend an evening watching Resident Evil instead of, say, Arrow.) White's good at the poking, not so good at the argument that should follow.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:26 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Which it is, of course, but which ultimately requires argument about why, say, Resident Evil is worth devoting time to. Or why one piece of pop culture is more worth one's time than another. (Why you should spend an evening watching Resident Evil instead of, say, Arrow.) White's good at the poking, not so good at the argument that should follow.
"Michael Bay satirizes American ambition in imagery so bright and exhilarating it exposes the core of spiritual dislocation and rot that Scorsese turns into another self-pleased, overlong gangster epic."Or White can study his Christgau, learn the mystic arts of the epigram, and when he can write something like "Blondie: The Curse of Blondie [Sanctuary, 2004]: Believes in reincarnation, wishes the pope had a bigger dick ("Shakedown," "End to End") **," then, then he will be ready.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:26 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I love movies of all kinds (Fast and Furious is one of my favorite franchises) but there has to be a line and championing "Grown Ups 2" or "Jack and Jill" zooms across that line at super sonic speeds.
Why does there have to be a line? I dunno, I don't like Armond White, but I am totally on board with the sympathetic takes on what he might be trying to do, even if I think he's doing a shit job if that's the case.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:28 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Why does there have to be a line? I dunno, I don't like Armond White, but I am totally on board with the sympathetic takes on what he might be trying to do, even if I think he's doing a shit job if that's the case.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:28 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Or White can study his Christgau, learn the mystic arts of the epigram, and when he can write something like "Blondie: The Curse of Blondie [Sanctuary, 2004]: Believes in reincarnation, wishes the pope had a bigger dick ("Shakedown," "End to End") **," then, then he will be ready.
Heh. I've never really read much Christgau. But from what I can gather, that is a dude who has mastered contrarianism. Casually looking up old favorite albums on wikipedia, glancing over at the reviews section... 4 stars, 5 stars, 4.5 stars, BOMB
posted by jason_steakums at 1:32 PM on January 14, 2014
Heh. I've never really read much Christgau. But from what I can gather, that is a dude who has mastered contrarianism. Casually looking up old favorite albums on wikipedia, glancing over at the reviews section... 4 stars, 5 stars, 4.5 stars, BOMB
posted by jason_steakums at 1:32 PM on January 14, 2014
I mean, it's impossible for any of us to know what is truly in the heart of Armond White, but it's possible to do a Bayesian-type evaluation of the belief that he trolls for attention, and Plumbing Ethnicity: Sandler's Jack, Jill and Tyler Perry really drives up the probability.
posted by vogon_poet at 1:33 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by vogon_poet at 1:33 PM on January 14, 2014
I am a much better person when I avoid using the word "but" in sentences.
posted by oceanjesse at 1:35 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by oceanjesse at 1:35 PM on January 14, 2014
I'm not like any of these.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:40 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by Benny Andajetz at 1:40 PM on January 14, 2014
I mean, it's impossible for any of us to know what is truly in the heart of Armond White...
The Shadow (1994) starring Alec Baldwin knows.
posted by griphus at 1:48 PM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
The Shadow (1994) starring Alec Baldwin knows.
posted by griphus at 1:48 PM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
Well, I suppose it behooves me to speak up in defense of Devil's Advocates here.
These people have more than just tendencies. They live to stir the pot
We don't do it to stir the pot. Well, OK, not primarily to stir the pot.
with questions worth asking
Devil's Advocates only ask questions when they're being disingenuous and have an answer in mind. An honest Devil's Advocate will frankly assert the opposite of the view held by most people (either people in general, or in the particular community in which they are participating), or the opposite of the view held by the particular person they're responding to. It's "Casino is actually better than Goodfellas," not "Is Casino actually better than Goodfellas?"
We do it because the best way to test an idea is in the fire of debate: If a bunch of people believe Goodfellas is better than Casino, they're more likely to articulate good reasons—if such reasons exist—why they believe that if they're arguing against someone who asserts the opposite, than if they are just a bunch of people all in agreement with each other. Or we do it because we enjoy debate as an intellectual exercise, and it keeps one's rhetorical skills strong to try to defend an unpopular opinion.
The best Devil's Advocates will, if no one else is arguing on either side of a proposition, often end up arguing both sides against themselves.
questions worth asking ("Does Martin Scorsese still have it?") and some that are not ("Was Casino actually better than Goodfellas?")
He's got the value of those two questions backwards.
[No, it has not escaped me that I am playing Devil's Advocate against Berkowitz's definition of Devil's Advocates. Would you expect any less of me?]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:08 PM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
These people have more than just tendencies. They live to stir the pot
We don't do it to stir the pot. Well, OK, not primarily to stir the pot.
with questions worth asking
Devil's Advocates only ask questions when they're being disingenuous and have an answer in mind. An honest Devil's Advocate will frankly assert the opposite of the view held by most people (either people in general, or in the particular community in which they are participating), or the opposite of the view held by the particular person they're responding to. It's "Casino is actually better than Goodfellas," not "Is Casino actually better than Goodfellas?"
We do it because the best way to test an idea is in the fire of debate: If a bunch of people believe Goodfellas is better than Casino, they're more likely to articulate good reasons—if such reasons exist—why they believe that if they're arguing against someone who asserts the opposite, than if they are just a bunch of people all in agreement with each other. Or we do it because we enjoy debate as an intellectual exercise, and it keeps one's rhetorical skills strong to try to defend an unpopular opinion.
The best Devil's Advocates will, if no one else is arguing on either side of a proposition, often end up arguing both sides against themselves.
questions worth asking ("Does Martin Scorsese still have it?") and some that are not ("Was Casino actually better than Goodfellas?")
He's got the value of those two questions backwards.
[No, it has not escaped me that I am playing Devil's Advocate against Berkowitz's definition of Devil's Advocates. Would you expect any less of me?]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 2:08 PM on January 14, 2014 [5 favorites]
/wonders if White has reviewed The Devils Advocate. I bet he liked it.
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I mean, it's impossible for any of us to know what is truly in the heart of Armond White
"THE HUMAN HAS NOT SEEN NORBIT", PRONOUNCED THE JUDGE
THE JURY GASPED, FOR THERE IS NO MORE SERIOUS CRIME
IT IS A CRIME SO SERIOUS
THAT THE JUDGE WAS FORCED TO COMMIT RITUAL SUICIDE FOR EVEN HAVING BROACHED THE TOPIC
OF NOT HAVING SEEN NORBIT
THE JUDGE WAS CRUSHED BY A FATSUIT-BEARING EDDIE MURPHY
TO THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE
THE HUMAN THEN UNDERWENT A PROCEDURE
ITS EYES WERE CONVERTED INTO AN INWARD-FACING NORBIT-DELIVERY MECHANISM
ITS MIND BECAME A LABYRINTH OF NORBIT QUOTES
THE HUMAN NO LONGER HAS ANY FUNCTION BEYOND THE ABSORPTION OF NORBIT
THE HUMAN HAS ATTAINED PERFECTION
ONE DAY PERFECTION SHALL COME FOR US ALL
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:17 PM on January 14, 2014 [13 favorites]
"THE HUMAN HAS NOT SEEN NORBIT", PRONOUNCED THE JUDGE
THE JURY GASPED, FOR THERE IS NO MORE SERIOUS CRIME
IT IS A CRIME SO SERIOUS
THAT THE JUDGE WAS FORCED TO COMMIT RITUAL SUICIDE FOR EVEN HAVING BROACHED THE TOPIC
OF NOT HAVING SEEN NORBIT
THE JUDGE WAS CRUSHED BY A FATSUIT-BEARING EDDIE MURPHY
TO THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE
THE HUMAN THEN UNDERWENT A PROCEDURE
ITS EYES WERE CONVERTED INTO AN INWARD-FACING NORBIT-DELIVERY MECHANISM
ITS MIND BECAME A LABYRINTH OF NORBIT QUOTES
THE HUMAN NO LONGER HAS ANY FUNCTION BEYOND THE ABSORPTION OF NORBIT
THE HUMAN HAS ATTAINED PERFECTION
ONE DAY PERFECTION SHALL COME FOR US ALL
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:17 PM on January 14, 2014 [13 favorites]
Seriously, though, Armond White has grown on me. He can be ridiculous, but he's good at making me consider why I ought to consider things differently, and sometimes he really is just plain correct. I completely agree with his take on the Blair Witch Project, for example, as well as his ongoing defense of Brian De Palma.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:25 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:25 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one who found this article almost unreadable? Apart from a peculiarly idiosyncratic frame of reference (e.g. defining *everything* in terms of "Girls", a show many of us know almost nothing about apart from its existence), when it actually does try to describe its types it isn't succinct, witty or on-target. To the extent it was parseable at all, most of them were unrecognizable.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:43 PM on January 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:43 PM on January 14, 2014 [3 favorites]
For those looking for a taste of Armond Whites style, The Better-Than List for 2013 is a pure distillation.
Please don't ever make me look at something like that again.
It was worth it for this gem in the comments:
"Monopoly > Guess Who?
Parker Brothers original masterpiece reveals the joy in modern American business management, while Milton Bradley embarrasses himself with liberal identity politics"
I do the devil's advocate thing irl a lot, especially when drunk, to the point where I'll find myself passionately defending some point of view (nothing hateful, mind) as the voice in my head cries "shut up you don't even believe that you moron!"
posted by billiebee at 3:41 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
Please don't ever make me look at something like that again.
It was worth it for this gem in the comments:
"Monopoly > Guess Who?
Parker Brothers original masterpiece reveals the joy in modern American business management, while Milton Bradley embarrasses himself with liberal identity politics"
I do the devil's advocate thing irl a lot, especially when drunk, to the point where I'll find myself passionately defending some point of view (nothing hateful, mind) as the voice in my head cries "shut up you don't even believe that you moron!"
posted by billiebee at 3:41 PM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
(e.g. defining *everything* in terms of "Girls", a show many of us know almost nothing about apart from its existence)
To be fair, a lot of philosophers would agree that we know hardly anything about everything except that it exists. Some physicists would sign on, too.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:46 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
To be fair, a lot of philosophers would agree that we know hardly anything about everything except that it exists. Some physicists would sign on, too.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:46 PM on January 14, 2014 [2 favorites]
Weird that you'd find a game with a French name in the most Flemish city in Flanders, isn't it?
Not at all. Just contrary.
And for all of you Devil's Advocates, "satan" comes from a Hebrew word which roughly translates to "accuser" or "adversary". And what else is associated with adversaries? Lawyers! And what is another synonym for a lawyer? Advocate! So basically you're a lawyer's lawyer!
Which reminds me, I didn't see rules lawyer on that list. Or nerdy contrarian.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:18 PM on January 14, 2014
Not at all. Just contrary.
And for all of you Devil's Advocates, "satan" comes from a Hebrew word which roughly translates to "accuser" or "adversary". And what else is associated with adversaries? Lawyers! And what is another synonym for a lawyer? Advocate! So basically you're a lawyer's lawyer!
Which reminds me, I didn't see rules lawyer on that list. Or nerdy contrarian.
posted by Athanassiel at 6:18 PM on January 14, 2014
Genre Argents Guy.
Though he'd argue technically he's actually some other type of thing.
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on January 14, 2014
Though he'd argue technically he's actually some other type of thing.
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on January 14, 2014
I'll admit to being the first one on the list, to the point of being overly snarky about popular annoying things such as football.
posted by Canageek at 11:57 PM on January 14, 2014
posted by Canageek at 11:57 PM on January 14, 2014
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posted by Artw at 11:01 AM on January 14, 2014 [1 favorite]