Steve/Bucky
June 21, 2014 10:51 PM Subscribe
That was a really impressive vid, actually. Wow. I'm completely unfamiliar with the comics and I've only seen the first movie, but I had no trouble following along for the most part.
WELL PLAYED, SIR.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 12:04 AM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
WELL PLAYED, SIR.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 12:04 AM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Perfect.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:49 AM on June 22, 2014
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:49 AM on June 22, 2014
I spent, like, five minutes staring at this link wondering if I should click it and why. That was far better than it had any right to be.
(I realized afterwards that I recognized the vidder's name from this Torchwood fanvid, which is also very well put together and hilarious)
this failed to make me any less mad about the BuckyNat resolution in the comics
So originally Nathan Edmonson said that there'd be no exes in Black Widow's book, but over the last two issues, two of them have dropped in, and I've found it to be really satisfying but not overpowering (here's Hawkeye's cameo). So it's totally possible that Bucky will drop by just long enough for closure and then skedattle.
posted by dinty_moore at 4:26 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
(I realized afterwards that I recognized the vidder's name from this Torchwood fanvid, which is also very well put together and hilarious)
this failed to make me any less mad about the BuckyNat resolution in the comics
So originally Nathan Edmonson said that there'd be no exes in Black Widow's book, but over the last two issues, two of them have dropped in, and I've found it to be really satisfying but not overpowering (here's Hawkeye's cameo). So it's totally possible that Bucky will drop by just long enough for closure and then skedattle.
posted by dinty_moore at 4:26 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Okay, yeah. I just looked up the solicit for Black Widow 8 and yeah, that looks like some sort of interaction with the Winter Soldier might be in the cards. You know. Maybe.
posted by dinty_moore at 5:24 AM on June 22, 2014
posted by dinty_moore at 5:24 AM on June 22, 2014
Widow is defined by her past.
At least the Daredevil cameo was subtle and in context (er.. I think, it's not a book that is big on plot).
The book itself is average.
posted by Mezentian at 5:45 AM on June 22, 2014
At least the Daredevil cameo was subtle and in context (er.. I think, it's not a book that is big on plot).
The book itself is average.
posted by Mezentian at 5:45 AM on June 22, 2014
That was great, The Whelk. This Say Something…[Steve/Bucky] that came up in the sidebar suggestions got me too.
The MCU is what may make me finally buy a blu-ray player - I can't bring myself to buy the franchise on DVD knowing that there are better features on the BD, but I'm getting desperate to watch Cap 1 & 2 back to back, and it seems unlikely that they'll both be up on Netflix streaming at once with the way Marvel seems to have made exclusive deals on the TV rights of the various movies (does anyone but FX get to run Iron Man).
posted by oh yeah! at 6:02 AM on June 22, 2014
The MCU is what may make me finally buy a blu-ray player - I can't bring myself to buy the franchise on DVD knowing that there are better features on the BD, but I'm getting desperate to watch Cap 1 & 2 back to back, and it seems unlikely that they'll both be up on Netflix streaming at once with the way Marvel seems to have made exclusive deals on the TV rights of the various movies (does anyone but FX get to run Iron Man).
posted by oh yeah! at 6:02 AM on June 22, 2014
I don't just want interaction, I want her to reclaim the agency they took away from her.
This video summarized a lot really effectively though. I too was impressed. If not convinced of the ship.
posted by NoraReed at 7:00 AM on June 22, 2014
This video summarized a lot really effectively though. I too was impressed. If not convinced of the ship.
posted by NoraReed at 7:00 AM on June 22, 2014
Steve/Bucky - Icarus
Things We Lost in the Fire | Steve and Bucky
Steve/Bucky - {If I Told You What I'd Done}
Bucky Barnes || Losing Your Memory
kermit flail!!!!
Is there really no Steve/Bucky fanvid set to the Avett Brothers I and Love and You? I kept seeing Tumbler posts using the "Brooklyn, Brooklyn, take me in, are you aware the shape I'm in?" chorus lyrics paired with fan art, but I'm striking out.
posted by oh yeah! at 7:08 AM on June 22, 2014
Things We Lost in the Fire | Steve and Bucky
Steve/Bucky - {If I Told You What I'd Done}
Bucky Barnes || Losing Your Memory
kermit flail!!!!
Is there really no Steve/Bucky fanvid set to the Avett Brothers I and Love and You? I kept seeing Tumbler posts using the "Brooklyn, Brooklyn, take me in, are you aware the shape I'm in?" chorus lyrics paired with fan art, but I'm striking out.
posted by oh yeah! at 7:08 AM on June 22, 2014
Greensilver also has two MCU Cap Vids: Sorrow, and Glamorous.
Also by other people but fitting with the theme, The War Was in Color, which is just Steve-based, and my favorite improbable song choice for a good vid in the MCU: Wrecking Ball, which tells the true love story in Iron Man - the one between Tony Stark and the Suit.
Is there really no Steve/Bucky fanvid set to the Avett Brothers I and Love and You?
I haven't seen one either! My first reaction when listening to the song is that it'd be difficult to make something that'd be difficult to make something that would be visually compelling for that song (lots of long cuts, ex.), but I'm also a really shitty vidder, so.
The song I always thought should be a Steve Rogers in Cap 1 song was Hero by Family of the Year.
I don't just want interaction, I want her to reclaim the agency they took away from her.
The issue isn't out in two weeks, so I can't say for sure how it's going to go down. But Black Widow's book is very much Black Widow's book - there's little of anyone else at all in it. She's a solitary character, doing her own thing, loudly insisting that she needs to be doing her own thing. And the last two ex interactions have been very much about Black Widow as a character, with Daredevil and Hawkeye as cameos to reveal something about Natasha (mostly, that she's busy doing her own thing).
So I'm pretty sure that it'll be about Nat as a character first and Bucky as a character second. Whether it'll address how absolutely shittily The Winter Soldier comic treated Natasha, I don't know. If you want, memail me in a couple weeks after it's out and I'll let you know how it goes.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:56 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also by other people but fitting with the theme, The War Was in Color, which is just Steve-based, and my favorite improbable song choice for a good vid in the MCU: Wrecking Ball, which tells the true love story in Iron Man - the one between Tony Stark and the Suit.
Is there really no Steve/Bucky fanvid set to the Avett Brothers I and Love and You?
I haven't seen one either! My first reaction when listening to the song is that it'd be difficult to make something that'd be difficult to make something that would be visually compelling for that song (lots of long cuts, ex.), but I'm also a really shitty vidder, so.
The song I always thought should be a Steve Rogers in Cap 1 song was Hero by Family of the Year.
I don't just want interaction, I want her to reclaim the agency they took away from her.
The issue isn't out in two weeks, so I can't say for sure how it's going to go down. But Black Widow's book is very much Black Widow's book - there's little of anyone else at all in it. She's a solitary character, doing her own thing, loudly insisting that she needs to be doing her own thing. And the last two ex interactions have been very much about Black Widow as a character, with Daredevil and Hawkeye as cameos to reveal something about Natasha (mostly, that she's busy doing her own thing).
So I'm pretty sure that it'll be about Nat as a character first and Bucky as a character second. Whether it'll address how absolutely shittily The Winter Soldier comic treated Natasha, I don't know. If you want, memail me in a couple weeks after it's out and I'll let you know how it goes.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:56 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
We had brunch guests over yesterday and they brought me the newest issue of the Vaptain America skin-care tie in comic because I am very easy to shop for apparently.
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 AM on June 22, 2014
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 AM on June 22, 2014
Warning: 1:30-2:00 contains scenes of corseted cross-dressing and pup tents that will come back to you in the middle of a conference call tomorrow.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:54 AM on June 22, 2014
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 8:54 AM on June 22, 2014
An art form I did not know existed. Interesting.
posted by amtho at 8:56 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 8:56 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Steve/Bucky vid that's currently delighting me is Problem.
posted by nonasuch at 9:29 AM on June 22, 2014
posted by nonasuch at 9:29 AM on June 22, 2014
I gave this maybe a full minute before I felt like I was done, and so I turned it off.
I'm getting a little tired of seeing pretty much every single same-sex platonic relationship in all of fandom repackaged as something romantic. I will absolutely concede that it's great that our society is getting to a point where things like this can be proposed and suggested and the whole world doesn't just lose its mind, but... I've always felt it was more than obnoxious enough that every male-female relationship with a lot of tension was presumed to be fraught with sexual tension. But now it seems like everyone has to be presumed to be overwhelmed with closeted homosexual tension, too.
Dear Internet: It's really okay for people to just be good friends. It happens all the time.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:29 AM on June 22, 2014 [5 favorites]
I'm getting a little tired of seeing pretty much every single same-sex platonic relationship in all of fandom repackaged as something romantic. I will absolutely concede that it's great that our society is getting to a point where things like this can be proposed and suggested and the whole world doesn't just lose its mind, but... I've always felt it was more than obnoxious enough that every male-female relationship with a lot of tension was presumed to be fraught with sexual tension. But now it seems like everyone has to be presumed to be overwhelmed with closeted homosexual tension, too.
Dear Internet: It's really okay for people to just be good friends. It happens all the time.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:29 AM on June 22, 2014 [5 favorites]
I absolutely agree with you, scaryblackdeath.
I've got extremely liberals views about sex, but trying to sexualize absolutely every relationship is creepy as shit. The vast majority of human relationships are non-sexual, and that's just dandy.
But it's also creepy how devoted to such things some people are. I wish I'd never found out about the whole repulsively idiotic phenomenon of "shipping." I've got no problem with people being all "I think A and B are hawt and wish they would make out." That's cool. But jebus...when something like that becomes a major part of your life, and you develop a "headcanon" (also nauseatingly dumb) you need to reevaluate some things.
My guess though is that his is a fad, and when it stops seeming like, totally edgy(tm) it'll die away.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 10:18 AM on June 22, 2014
I've got extremely liberals views about sex, but trying to sexualize absolutely every relationship is creepy as shit. The vast majority of human relationships are non-sexual, and that's just dandy.
But it's also creepy how devoted to such things some people are. I wish I'd never found out about the whole repulsively idiotic phenomenon of "shipping." I've got no problem with people being all "I think A and B are hawt and wish they would make out." That's cool. But jebus...when something like that becomes a major part of your life, and you develop a "headcanon" (also nauseatingly dumb) you need to reevaluate some things.
My guess though is that his is a fad, and when it stops seeming like, totally edgy(tm) it'll die away.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 10:18 AM on June 22, 2014
Eh. It's no less vapid than arguing about who would beat who in a fight, and trust me - people devote a hell of a lot of internet space to that, too. And a hell of a lot more comic space, for that matter.
I'm not the biggest Steve/Bucky shipper, but it's not like any of the fanvids here have manipped them into making out with each other or anything. You can just read all of these as platonic love and be just fine.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:28 AM on June 22, 2014
I'm not the biggest Steve/Bucky shipper, but it's not like any of the fanvids here have manipped them into making out with each other or anything. You can just read all of these as platonic love and be just fine.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:28 AM on June 22, 2014
Well, not the torchwood mpreg fanvid. Someone is obviously boning someone else in that one.
Also, man. I have headcanons about a lot of things. Like, pretty much anything I watch and think about. It's called interacting with the text.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:32 AM on June 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, man. I have headcanons about a lot of things. Like, pretty much anything I watch and think about. It's called interacting with the text.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:32 AM on June 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
But it's also creepy how devoted to such things some people are.
I feel exactly the same way... about football.
posted by kythuen at 10:35 AM on June 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
I feel exactly the same way... about football.
posted by kythuen at 10:35 AM on June 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
People have been shipping characters for as long as there have been stories being told, it's not some new fad that internet-age fandom has discovered, and hoping for people to get tired of it is pretty laughable. Nobody's tired of Kirk/Spock yet.
but it's not like any of the fanvids here have manipped them into making out with each other or anything
Heh. Guess you didn't watch most of the vids posted in-thread. Thanks to Sebastian Stan's work in "Kings", there are absolutely make-out manips aplenty.
posted by oh yeah! at 10:36 AM on June 22, 2014
but it's not like any of the fanvids here have manipped them into making out with each other or anything
Heh. Guess you didn't watch most of the vids posted in-thread. Thanks to Sebastian Stan's work in "Kings", there are absolutely make-out manips aplenty.
posted by oh yeah! at 10:36 AM on June 22, 2014
My guess though is that his is a fad, and when it stops seeming like, totally edgy(tm) it'll die away.
Yes, any minute now I will realize the the community of fans that welcomed me over fifteen years ago, which traces its roots back decades further, is nothing but a flash in the pan dreamt up by desperate hipsters in search of the Next Cool Thing.
Since I definitely never spent a huge chunk of my life being embarrassed about my love of genre media, and secretive about the way that media sparked a desire for more stories set in beloved fictional worlds, now that the Muggles have learned of my 'nauseatingly dumb' hobby I will abandon it for something sensible, like fly fishing or memorizing baseball statistics.
Obviously, no sane person would see subtext in a piece of fiction they care deeply about, or wish to tell stories about that fiction that push boundaries, or explore possibilities the source text does not consider. Obviously that pastime could never be rewarding for people who have long wished for more queer characters and stories in mainstream media, and lacking that have created their own.
It is, quite evidently, 'creepy' to do so. Thank goodness I realize that now.
(seriously, coming into a thread about fannish creations to shit all over fandom: not, actually, the kindest or most considerate thing to do. If you don't connect to media the way that people in fandom do, that is perfectly fine, but calling us a bunch of desperate losers seems awfully unnecessary.)
posted by nonasuch at 10:57 AM on June 22, 2014 [25 favorites]
Yes, any minute now I will realize the the community of fans that welcomed me over fifteen years ago, which traces its roots back decades further, is nothing but a flash in the pan dreamt up by desperate hipsters in search of the Next Cool Thing.
Since I definitely never spent a huge chunk of my life being embarrassed about my love of genre media, and secretive about the way that media sparked a desire for more stories set in beloved fictional worlds, now that the Muggles have learned of my 'nauseatingly dumb' hobby I will abandon it for something sensible, like fly fishing or memorizing baseball statistics.
Obviously, no sane person would see subtext in a piece of fiction they care deeply about, or wish to tell stories about that fiction that push boundaries, or explore possibilities the source text does not consider. Obviously that pastime could never be rewarding for people who have long wished for more queer characters and stories in mainstream media, and lacking that have created their own.
It is, quite evidently, 'creepy' to do so. Thank goodness I realize that now.
(seriously, coming into a thread about fannish creations to shit all over fandom: not, actually, the kindest or most considerate thing to do. If you don't connect to media the way that people in fandom do, that is perfectly fine, but calling us a bunch of desperate losers seems awfully unnecessary.)
posted by nonasuch at 10:57 AM on June 22, 2014 [25 favorites]
Heh. Guess you didn't watch most of the vids posted in-thread. Thanks to Sebastian Stan's work in "Kings", there are absolutely make-out manips aplenty.
:D Technically I posted half of the vids in this thread, but yeah, I didn't get very far into 'If I told you what I've done'. Duly noted and corrected. 2010 gave me a pretty high bar for fanvids set to Florence and the Machine, you have to understand (there were so many. So. Many.).
Speaking of which, does anyone know what brought about the new fanvids set to Dessa fad? Like, I'm not complaining, because Dessa is awesome, but I always thought of her as a fairly local Minnesotan fad, and not the sort of female vocalist that tends to end up being the new fanvid flavor of the day. Or is this just confirmation bias on my part?
posted by dinty_moore at 11:06 AM on June 22, 2014
:D Technically I posted half of the vids in this thread, but yeah, I didn't get very far into 'If I told you what I've done'. Duly noted and corrected. 2010 gave me a pretty high bar for fanvids set to Florence and the Machine, you have to understand (there were so many. So. Many.).
Speaking of which, does anyone know what brought about the new fanvids set to Dessa fad? Like, I'm not complaining, because Dessa is awesome, but I always thought of her as a fairly local Minnesotan fad, and not the sort of female vocalist that tends to end up being the new fanvid flavor of the day. Or is this just confirmation bias on my part?
posted by dinty_moore at 11:06 AM on June 22, 2014
Dessa was the musical guest at the live Welcome to Night Vale show in NYC this month; considering how Night Vale fandom burst forth from nowhere, I can see how Dessa popularity could spread in the same way.
posted by oh yeah! at 11:23 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by oh yeah! at 11:23 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
I and Love and You does indeed seem like the perfect Steve/Bucky song, but I agree that it seems difficult to vid. Then again, I wouldn't have said Vienna Teng's Hymn of Acxiom was particularly viddable, but kaydeefalls did an agonizing and life-ruining Bucky vid to it, so.
Another life-ruining Bucky vid, which I strongly recommend: lim's Time, which is a deceptively simple but very creative concept vid.
posted by yasaman at 11:35 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Another life-ruining Bucky vid, which I strongly recommend: lim's Time, which is a deceptively simple but very creative concept vid.
posted by yasaman at 11:35 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
My guess though is that his is a fad, and when it stops seeming like, totally edgy(tm) it'll die away.
LOL. Plato was talking about the pure and true love of Achilles and Patroclus and who was fucking who. Shipping is not a fad.
posted by yasaman at 11:37 AM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
LOL. Plato was talking about the pure and true love of Achilles and Patroclus and who was fucking who. Shipping is not a fad.
posted by yasaman at 11:37 AM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Another life-ruining Bucky vid, which I strongly recommend: lim's Time, which is a deceptively simple but very creative concept vid.
Lim is ridiculously talented when it comes to adding complicated effects and typography to a vid and making it work and not feel gimmicky at all. I have no interest in Person of Interest at all, but have considered watching it because a) Amy Berg either writes or wrote for it, and B) an excuse to watch Lim's person of interest vids.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:53 AM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Lim is ridiculously talented when it comes to adding complicated effects and typography to a vid and making it work and not feel gimmicky at all. I have no interest in Person of Interest at all, but have considered watching it because a) Amy Berg either writes or wrote for it, and B) an excuse to watch Lim's person of interest vids.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:53 AM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
People have been shipping characters for as long as there have been stories being told, it's not some new fad that internet-age fandom has discovered, and hoping for people to get tired of it is pretty laughable. Nobody's tired of Kirk/Spock yet.
It goes back a lot farther than Kirk/Spock. People have been shipping Sherlock/John since the original stories were published, so this "fad" is at least 100+ years old.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:57 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
It goes back a lot farther than Kirk/Spock. People have been shipping Sherlock/John since the original stories were published, so this "fad" is at least 100+ years old.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:57 AM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
I love Dessa so much so I'm glad she has more fans. I found her when Doomtree was a weather segment on WTNV last year and I doubt I'm the only one.
posted by NoraReed at 12:10 PM on June 22, 2014
posted by NoraReed at 12:10 PM on June 22, 2014
Yeah, I didn't get my thought out clearly there - I meant that the same people who started their shipping with Kirk/Spock back when TOS was in its initial run are probably shipping them still all these decades later.
posted by oh yeah! at 12:11 PM on June 22, 2014
posted by oh yeah! at 12:11 PM on June 22, 2014
I love Dessa so much so I'm glad she has more fans. I found her when Doomtree was a weather segment on WTNV last year and I doubt I'm the only one.
I'm really glad, too! I mean, I saw Doomtree in concert last week and I'm about to see Dessa in concert today, but it's just kind of weird to see someone I always thought of as pretty local show up in a different context. Welcome to Night Vale would explain it though, thanks!
Also, as a note - the first fanvids were also Star Trek - I forget who it was, but she set up a slide projector and a cassette player and would have to manually move it to the next slide for scene changes. I forget if it was explicitly shippy, though.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:18 PM on June 22, 2014
I'm really glad, too! I mean, I saw Doomtree in concert last week and I'm about to see Dessa in concert today, but it's just kind of weird to see someone I always thought of as pretty local show up in a different context. Welcome to Night Vale would explain it though, thanks!
Also, as a note - the first fanvids were also Star Trek - I forget who it was, but she set up a slide projector and a cassette player and would have to manually move it to the next slide for scene changes. I forget if it was explicitly shippy, though.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:18 PM on June 22, 2014
Also, as a note - the first fanvids were also Star Trek - I forget who it was, but she set up a slide projector and a cassette player and would have to manually move it to the next slide for scene changes. I forget if it was explicitly shippy, though.
Looked it up myself - Kandy Fong. Both Sides Now as an example. IMO, it's approximately as shippy as the original series, which is still pretty homoerotic. I'd be surprised if fanvids didn't contain slash from the start.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:30 PM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Looked it up myself - Kandy Fong. Both Sides Now as an example. IMO, it's approximately as shippy as the original series, which is still pretty homoerotic. I'd be surprised if fanvids didn't contain slash from the start.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:30 PM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Another really good (and non-shippy, for those preferring such) Steve and Bucky vid is We go hard. (Also, man, it's nice to have reached a time when a mention of fandom and/or slash, in a mainstream venue like MeFi, results in only a few comments like scaryblackdeath's and Fists o'Fury's, rather than that being the overwhelming default Hurr hurr response.)
posted by Kat Allison at 2:00 PM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Kat Allison at 2:00 PM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wow, Fists O'Fury. Tell me what you really think.
That's interesting that you find the idea of investment in fictional relationships to be creepy, and the process of expanding on a text in one's own mind to be nauseatingly dumb. Do you think that all enthusiastic engagement with fiction is creepy and nauseatingly dumb? Are there ways to be enthusiastic that are more or less okay? Is the problem that people* are having conversations and creating fanwork that conflict with what you see as the authorial intent of the text? Is it the amount of time? The intensity of the discussion? The investment? Is devotion to a particular reading of a text more creepy than devotion to a band, or a sports team, or a hobby?
I mean, not that your opinion is going to keep me from doing what I damn well please with my free time, I'm just curious.
*mostly women and queer folks but of course that's not why you have a problem with it, right?
posted by Narrative Priorities at 4:05 PM on June 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
That's interesting that you find the idea of investment in fictional relationships to be creepy, and the process of expanding on a text in one's own mind to be nauseatingly dumb. Do you think that all enthusiastic engagement with fiction is creepy and nauseatingly dumb? Are there ways to be enthusiastic that are more or less okay? Is the problem that people* are having conversations and creating fanwork that conflict with what you see as the authorial intent of the text? Is it the amount of time? The intensity of the discussion? The investment? Is devotion to a particular reading of a text more creepy than devotion to a band, or a sports team, or a hobby?
I mean, not that your opinion is going to keep me from doing what I damn well please with my free time, I'm just curious.
*mostly women and queer folks but of course that's not why you have a problem with it, right?
posted by Narrative Priorities at 4:05 PM on June 22, 2014 [4 favorites]
MeFi is mainstream? lol
posted by Jacqueline at 4:29 PM on June 22, 2014
posted by Jacqueline at 4:29 PM on June 22, 2014
(Also, man, it's nice to have reached a time when a mention of fandom and/or slash, in a mainstream venue like MeFi, results in only a few comments like scaryblackdeath's and Fists o'Fury's, rather than that being the overwhelming default Hurr hurr response.)
While I fully accept that my mild distaste for this phenomenon (and willingness to voice it) means I am literally Hitler, I would like to point out that Fists o'Fury's response and mine don't exactly strike the same tone.
I'm not angry at anyone for doing it. I don't think it means people are dumb or lame or have too much time on their hands. I just... gah. I'm over it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:18 PM on June 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
While I fully accept that my mild distaste for this phenomenon (and willingness to voice it) means I am literally Hitler, I would like to point out that Fists o'Fury's response and mine don't exactly strike the same tone.
I'm not angry at anyone for doing it. I don't think it means people are dumb or lame or have too much time on their hands. I just... gah. I'm over it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:18 PM on June 22, 2014 [3 favorites]
The idea of sexualization of fictional characters in ways that are beyond the approved "canon" methods dictated by the (generally white) men who control those properties (in this case, Marvel/Disney) is pretty threatening to the sexual status quo. A lot of these spaces are pretty queer-normative and they are definitely woman-dominated, and the idea of a bunch of women creating enormous quantities of content, especially sexual content (which this, frankly, isn't, it's pretty much just romantic), that appeals to women on our own terms is something that will always have the kind of pushback Fists o'Fury is demonstrating here, because society has a lot invested in controlling women's sexuality, and the fact that women have basically created a massive community for creating and sharing content targeted mostly at each other without much of the consumeristic exploitation you get in mainstream pornography, is actually kind of revolutionary.
The fact that it's hand in hand with the explosion of people figuring out their identities on Tumblr and the like and that we're all using fiction to figure that shit out makes it even better. I was looking through AO3 for Eliot/Parker/Hardison fic the other day and there was a lot where the group was spending time working through personal and mental health issues in healthy ways and even some where some of the members identified as romantic but asexual and they dealt with that positively without being marginalizing and awful.
Frankly, the fact that Fists O'Fury reacts like that shows that fandom is working: no one would have bothered to attempt to marginalize fanworks as an art form if women taking art into our own hands and fixing all of the shit the original creators fucked up so that we can see ourselves in it properly (and occasionally get ourselves off with each other's help instead of with the help of men who're the products of an objectifying and generally sexually unpleasurable sexual and pornographic culture) didn't threaten mainstream sexual narratives.
The particular hatred of the word "headcanon" is especially ridiculous considering the millennia of religious and literary scholarship that has consisted of academic men arguing with each other over whose interpretations of various texts is correct. It's when its a bunch of women and girls forming ideas about how they want to imagine Teen Wolf that people start getting mad about it; generations of men arguing about and occasionally going to war for their Jesus headcanons is seen as perfectly normal.
posted by NoraReed at 6:51 PM on June 22, 2014 [16 favorites]
The fact that it's hand in hand with the explosion of people figuring out their identities on Tumblr and the like and that we're all using fiction to figure that shit out makes it even better. I was looking through AO3 for Eliot/Parker/Hardison fic the other day and there was a lot where the group was spending time working through personal and mental health issues in healthy ways and even some where some of the members identified as romantic but asexual and they dealt with that positively without being marginalizing and awful.
Frankly, the fact that Fists O'Fury reacts like that shows that fandom is working: no one would have bothered to attempt to marginalize fanworks as an art form if women taking art into our own hands and fixing all of the shit the original creators fucked up so that we can see ourselves in it properly (and occasionally get ourselves off with each other's help instead of with the help of men who're the products of an objectifying and generally sexually unpleasurable sexual and pornographic culture) didn't threaten mainstream sexual narratives.
The particular hatred of the word "headcanon" is especially ridiculous considering the millennia of religious and literary scholarship that has consisted of academic men arguing with each other over whose interpretations of various texts is correct. It's when its a bunch of women and girls forming ideas about how they want to imagine Teen Wolf that people start getting mad about it; generations of men arguing about and occasionally going to war for their Jesus headcanons is seen as perfectly normal.
posted by NoraReed at 6:51 PM on June 22, 2014 [16 favorites]
I think I discovered Dessa a year or two ago because of a Black Widow fanvid set to The Bullpen. It led me backwards into Doomtree as well. Predates her WTNW appearances by a bit, and I think it may have spread because it's such a great song for a lot of female characters. (There need to be some done to Poe's song Control, because, yeah.)
posted by PussKillian at 8:57 PM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by PussKillian at 8:57 PM on June 22, 2014 [1 favorite]
While I fully accept that my mild distaste for this phenomenon (and willingness to voice it) means I am literally Hitler, I would like to point out that Fists o'Fury's response and mine don't exactly strike the same tone.
Okay, yeah. So, here's thing: you seem to be assuming because one person is shipping one thing, they're shipping all the things all the time. There are plenty of people who aren't really into Steve/Bucky and value that relationship on a platonic level. Some of those people might also think that Steve is totally into Sam Wilson, or maybe that Bucky and Natasha should have angsty makeouts. There are multiple relationships out there that aren't getting sexualized that could still be presented as valid and important. It's just that there are a lot of different viewpoints out there, and the one sexualized relationship changes with each viewpoint.
Not to mention the idea that someone creating a fanwork isn't absolutely devoted to sexualizing that relationship all the time - they like toying with the idea of Bucky, Natasha, and Steve forming a triad in one circumstance, but in another, everyone is just really good friends. Both are equally valid. Everything's an alternate universe - why not play around?
Well, maybe your ideal relationship is already in the canon you prefer, so you don't feel the need to explore. Which also explains why there's fewer fanworks that are focused on Steve and Bucky's platonic relationship without another hook (such as needing to explore their reaction to eating a modern banana) - there's already a lot of canon out there that's fitting their needs.
Also, another piece of context you might be missing: Fanvids are a lot less ship-based than most other fannish mediums - so the complaints about everyone sexualizing everything make even less sense.
Look, I mostly read gen fic when I was in SPN fandom. I can totally understand being frustrated because it seems like all fandom activities revolve around who is boning who and in what way, and you couldn't care less about that part. But the vidding section of fandom (and vidding fandom in general) tends to not get quite so partisan. It's been years since I've thought about looking up a Supernatural fanvid, and I can think of three separate high-quality Supernatural fanvids focusing on female characters set to songs by Florence and the Machine off the top of my head.
Unless you're dealing with Sebastian Stan, who has made a career of aggressively making out with men (usually while being the tortured gay son of the ruling family, thank you Political Animals and Kings), it is kind of hard to delineate between something celebrating the in-canon relationship between two characters and reading the homoerotic context into that. Can people get around it? Yep. But it's not easy, and oftentimes it's the viewer's prerogative as to whether the relationship is sexual or not.
So really, trust me. You can find non-shippy fanvids for the stuff you love out there. Not everything is getting sexualized. Also, one person sexualizing that particular relationship doesn't mean that everyone is sexualizing all of the relationships, and that you can feel free to disagree and find (or create!) something better suited for your tastes instead.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:22 PM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Okay, yeah. So, here's thing: you seem to be assuming because one person is shipping one thing, they're shipping all the things all the time. There are plenty of people who aren't really into Steve/Bucky and value that relationship on a platonic level. Some of those people might also think that Steve is totally into Sam Wilson, or maybe that Bucky and Natasha should have angsty makeouts. There are multiple relationships out there that aren't getting sexualized that could still be presented as valid and important. It's just that there are a lot of different viewpoints out there, and the one sexualized relationship changes with each viewpoint.
Not to mention the idea that someone creating a fanwork isn't absolutely devoted to sexualizing that relationship all the time - they like toying with the idea of Bucky, Natasha, and Steve forming a triad in one circumstance, but in another, everyone is just really good friends. Both are equally valid. Everything's an alternate universe - why not play around?
Well, maybe your ideal relationship is already in the canon you prefer, so you don't feel the need to explore. Which also explains why there's fewer fanworks that are focused on Steve and Bucky's platonic relationship without another hook (such as needing to explore their reaction to eating a modern banana) - there's already a lot of canon out there that's fitting their needs.
Also, another piece of context you might be missing: Fanvids are a lot less ship-based than most other fannish mediums - so the complaints about everyone sexualizing everything make even less sense.
Look, I mostly read gen fic when I was in SPN fandom. I can totally understand being frustrated because it seems like all fandom activities revolve around who is boning who and in what way, and you couldn't care less about that part. But the vidding section of fandom (and vidding fandom in general) tends to not get quite so partisan. It's been years since I've thought about looking up a Supernatural fanvid, and I can think of three separate high-quality Supernatural fanvids focusing on female characters set to songs by Florence and the Machine off the top of my head.
Unless you're dealing with Sebastian Stan, who has made a career of aggressively making out with men (usually while being the tortured gay son of the ruling family, thank you Political Animals and Kings), it is kind of hard to delineate between something celebrating the in-canon relationship between two characters and reading the homoerotic context into that. Can people get around it? Yep. But it's not easy, and oftentimes it's the viewer's prerogative as to whether the relationship is sexual or not.
So really, trust me. You can find non-shippy fanvids for the stuff you love out there. Not everything is getting sexualized. Also, one person sexualizing that particular relationship doesn't mean that everyone is sexualizing all of the relationships, and that you can feel free to disagree and find (or create!) something better suited for your tastes instead.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:22 PM on June 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
I do find it odd for Captain America/Bucky to be shipped, the same characters that 70 years ago that had comics with highly offensive depictions of minorities like "Whitewash Jones". I somewhat understand that some fans have literally invested years in these characters and thus feel like these characters should reflect their values and/or identity.
But there's also a part of me that's like, "Why don't we have to fix this old xenophobic and racist power fantasy? Can't we just leave this character to the misogynists and jingoists and create our own characters free of all this baggage?"
Or at least with all new baggage for future fans to endlessly criticize about?
posted by FJT at 11:57 PM on June 22, 2014
But there's also a part of me that's like, "Why don't we have to fix this old xenophobic and racist power fantasy? Can't we just leave this character to the misogynists and jingoists and create our own characters free of all this baggage?"
Or at least with all new baggage for future fans to endlessly criticize about?
posted by FJT at 11:57 PM on June 22, 2014
and create our own characters free of all this baggage?"
Isn't that what has already happened? The MCU Captain America isn't a racist xenophobe - the movie Howling Commandos are a veritable WWII colors of Benetton ad. Same goes for movie-Cap & misogyny. And aside from the fan-vid that The Whelk kicked this thread off with, the Steve/Bucky that are being shipped are not the characters from 70 years ago, they're the characters from the movies. And then the people making fanvids & fanfic change them even more.
Personally, I've never read the Captain America comics. And everything I've learned about them was usually in context of how things in the comics compare with the movie depiction, so, I don't have a strong emotional connection to the comics characters, and anything egregious they've done can be shrugged of pretty easily.
posted by oh yeah! at 5:09 AM on June 23, 2014
Isn't that what has already happened? The MCU Captain America isn't a racist xenophobe - the movie Howling Commandos are a veritable WWII colors of Benetton ad. Same goes for movie-Cap & misogyny. And aside from the fan-vid that The Whelk kicked this thread off with, the Steve/Bucky that are being shipped are not the characters from 70 years ago, they're the characters from the movies. And then the people making fanvids & fanfic change them even more.
Personally, I've never read the Captain America comics. And everything I've learned about them was usually in context of how things in the comics compare with the movie depiction, so, I don't have a strong emotional connection to the comics characters, and anything egregious they've done can be shrugged of pretty easily.
posted by oh yeah! at 5:09 AM on June 23, 2014
I get the objections, because I feel the same way about certain other nerdy fan subcultures. Which I won't name, because it's pretty easy for me to see that this is MY hangup and the fact that I don't see value in playing X game or watching X thing doesn't mean that it doesn't make people happy. I don't go into those threads and say "why are you people happy? it's stupid to be happy about thing X!"
But really, I hope that everyone has something silly that they care about a lot. It could be setting your sights on collecting every Star Trek dinner plate or following Harry and the Potters on tour or routing for a sports team that has not won a championship in a century. None of these things are Important in the grand scheme of things, but if we couldn't occasionally care too much about something silly I think life would be a lot less fun.
posted by chaiminda at 5:49 AM on June 23, 2014
But really, I hope that everyone has something silly that they care about a lot. It could be setting your sights on collecting every Star Trek dinner plate or following Harry and the Potters on tour or routing for a sports team that has not won a championship in a century. None of these things are Important in the grand scheme of things, but if we couldn't occasionally care too much about something silly I think life would be a lot less fun.
posted by chaiminda at 5:49 AM on June 23, 2014
I do find it odd for Captain America/Bucky to be shipped, the same characters that 70 years ago that had comics with highly offensive depictions of minorities like "Whitewash Jones". I somewhat understand that some fans have literally invested years in these characters and thus feel like these characters should reflect their values and/or identity.
But there's also a part of me that's like, "Why don't we have to fix this old xenophobic and racist power fantasy? Can't we just leave this character to the misogynists and jingoists and create our own characters free of all this baggage?"
I'm...not sure why you're focusing on the Captain America of 70 years ago to make a point about the Captain America fandom today. As with all long-running comics, there are stretches of the canon that are outright embarrassing, nonsensical, or offensive. But there have been any number of retcons and reboots since Captain America's debut.
Also, calling Captain America a xenophobic and racist power fantasy is kind of missing the entire point of Captain America. Steven Attewell lays out why Captain America is an "explicitly progressive superhero" here. Attewell goes into why Cap is a progressive ideal some more in this article as well.
You can probably make a case for him being jingoistic, racist power fantasy (especially if you go by Ultimates Cap, but no one liked Millar's Ultimates Cap), but fandom today does not see him that way. Captain America is the moral center of the Marvel universe, the manifestation of the ideals of America at their best. There's not really anything you need to fix there, other than to roll your eyes at some of the egregiously offensive stuff from the older Cap comics, and literally all superhero comics have egregiously offensive stuff littered throughout their early days.
posted by yasaman at 10:43 AM on June 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
But there's also a part of me that's like, "Why don't we have to fix this old xenophobic and racist power fantasy? Can't we just leave this character to the misogynists and jingoists and create our own characters free of all this baggage?"
I'm...not sure why you're focusing on the Captain America of 70 years ago to make a point about the Captain America fandom today. As with all long-running comics, there are stretches of the canon that are outright embarrassing, nonsensical, or offensive. But there have been any number of retcons and reboots since Captain America's debut.
Also, calling Captain America a xenophobic and racist power fantasy is kind of missing the entire point of Captain America. Steven Attewell lays out why Captain America is an "explicitly progressive superhero" here. Attewell goes into why Cap is a progressive ideal some more in this article as well.
You can probably make a case for him being jingoistic, racist power fantasy (especially if you go by Ultimates Cap, but no one liked Millar's Ultimates Cap), but fandom today does not see him that way. Captain America is the moral center of the Marvel universe, the manifestation of the ideals of America at their best. There's not really anything you need to fix there, other than to roll your eyes at some of the egregiously offensive stuff from the older Cap comics, and literally all superhero comics have egregiously offensive stuff littered throughout their early days.
posted by yasaman at 10:43 AM on June 23, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think dinty_moore's point about how slash may be overwhelming from the outside, but doesn't actually ignore close friendships, is something that is both very true and also very difficult to see, sometimes even from inside fandom where presumably it might be more visible. I've definitely seen people post in secrets forums or on Tumblr to sort of sheepishly say that they don't ship a particular pairing that seems to dominate the fandom, or doing a sort of weird mock apology thing about not being part of the mainstream. But at the same time, fandom is incredibly inclusive for people who ship rare pairings. The fact that a scant handful of people feel the same way I do about ships hasn't stopped me from writing those stories, and it also doesn't stop me from thinking that Bilbo/Thorin is not what I want at all because that relationship makes the most sense to me as a deep friendship which doesn't have any sexual component to it.
There is a weird pressure sometimes because people in fandom can get really declarative about their likes and dislikes (This actress is my precious queen, this actor is gross and should GTFO) but when you dig into it, there's room for everything.
posted by PussKillian at 12:22 PM on June 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
There is a weird pressure sometimes because people in fandom can get really declarative about their likes and dislikes (This actress is my precious queen, this actor is gross and should GTFO) but when you dig into it, there's room for everything.
posted by PussKillian at 12:22 PM on June 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
But there have been any number of retcons and reboots since Captain America's debut .
I understand that there are various retcons and reboots of Captain America and many other fictional characters, but I don't think these retcons and reboots make the past iterations of the character irrelevant to the discussion about fandom using these existing characters to make them more relatable in the 21st century.
You can probably make a case for him being jingoistic, racist power fantasy (especially if you go by Ultimates Cap, but no one liked Millar's Ultimates Cap), but fandom today does not see him that way. Captain America is the moral center of the Marvel universe, the manifestation of the ideals of America at their best.
There is an inescapable jingoism to have someone dress up in a national flag and portrayed as a symbol of a country's inherent morality and goodness, though I don't think that's the only thing Captain America's about. But even with my ambivalent feelings, I do like Captain America, though you are free to judge if I'm a fan since I probably don't feel about him the exact same way as the fandom does.
There's not really anything you need to fix there, other than to roll your eyes at some of the egregiously offensive stuff from the older Cap comics, and literally all superhero comics have egregiously offensive stuff littered throughout their early days.
Having read this topic entirely, one of the takeaways I have is with a long running character like Captain America, is there's always something fix. For instance, there is obviously an offensive vein currently running through comics and just geek culture in general that has to be fixed. And even if we put that aside, characters themselves will naturally be fixed over time, simply because the times change, or a new writer comes on, or they just need to sell more tickets (which will probably be more important since Disney owns Cap, and overseas markets like China are growing). Even you yourself mentioned that there were numerous reboots of Captain America.
posted by FJT at 3:05 PM on June 23, 2014
I understand that there are various retcons and reboots of Captain America and many other fictional characters, but I don't think these retcons and reboots make the past iterations of the character irrelevant to the discussion about fandom using these existing characters to make them more relatable in the 21st century.
You can probably make a case for him being jingoistic, racist power fantasy (especially if you go by Ultimates Cap, but no one liked Millar's Ultimates Cap), but fandom today does not see him that way. Captain America is the moral center of the Marvel universe, the manifestation of the ideals of America at their best.
There is an inescapable jingoism to have someone dress up in a national flag and portrayed as a symbol of a country's inherent morality and goodness, though I don't think that's the only thing Captain America's about. But even with my ambivalent feelings, I do like Captain America, though you are free to judge if I'm a fan since I probably don't feel about him the exact same way as the fandom does.
There's not really anything you need to fix there, other than to roll your eyes at some of the egregiously offensive stuff from the older Cap comics, and literally all superhero comics have egregiously offensive stuff littered throughout their early days.
Having read this topic entirely, one of the takeaways I have is with a long running character like Captain America, is there's always something fix. For instance, there is obviously an offensive vein currently running through comics and just geek culture in general that has to be fixed. And even if we put that aside, characters themselves will naturally be fixed over time, simply because the times change, or a new writer comes on, or they just need to sell more tickets (which will probably be more important since Disney owns Cap, and overseas markets like China are growing). Even you yourself mentioned that there were numerous reboots of Captain America.
posted by FJT at 3:05 PM on June 23, 2014
I think I discovered Dessa a year or two ago because of a Black Widow fanvid set to The Bullpen
And a lot of people in fandom "discovered" Dessa when Heresluck, a really prominent fanvidder, started posting links to her stuff. Which is how I found Dessa, more than a year before the Black Widow vid was posted.
Heresluck is responsible for me finding a lot of good music by people I wouldn't otherwise have discovered... There's a great story about how she got feedback from Benefits of Being Paranoid because she did a Firefly/Serenity vid to "No Frontiers" and that resulted in some fans going to a show, where they talked to the band and mentioned the vid...
posted by suelac at 5:26 PM on June 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
And a lot of people in fandom "discovered" Dessa when Heresluck, a really prominent fanvidder, started posting links to her stuff. Which is how I found Dessa, more than a year before the Black Widow vid was posted.
Heresluck is responsible for me finding a lot of good music by people I wouldn't otherwise have discovered... There's a great story about how she got feedback from Benefits of Being Paranoid because she did a Firefly/Serenity vid to "No Frontiers" and that resulted in some fans going to a show, where they talked to the band and mentioned the vid...
posted by suelac at 5:26 PM on June 23, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by NoraReed at 11:00 PM on June 21, 2014