Born Suspect.
September 25, 2014 10:41 AM Subscribe
This afternoon, the NAACP released "Born Suspect: Stop and Frisk Abuses & the Continued Fight to End Racial Profiling in America." (pdf) The report comes on the same day that Ferguson, MO Police Chief Thomas Jackson released this video, apologizing to the family of Michael Brown for the death of their son, and the day after South Carolina Highway Patrol Trooper Sean Groubert was arrested for opening fire on an unarmed Black man, Levar Jones, whom he had pulled over for a seat belt violation.
The DOJ also said yesterday that they would begin an investigation into the death of John Crawford III, who was killed by police at a Walmart last month. The 22 year old man was, according to surveillance video, walking — talking on the phone — with an air soft rifle that he picked had up, un-boxed, from the Walmart shelves.
The DOJ also said yesterday that they would begin an investigation into the death of John Crawford III, who was killed by police at a Walmart last month. The 22 year old man was, according to surveillance video, walking — talking on the phone — with an air soft rifle that he picked had up, un-boxed, from the Walmart shelves.
The 22 year old man was, according to surveillance video, walking — talking on the phone — with an air soft rifle that he picked had up, un-boxed, from the Walmart shelves.
Kind of an understatement, actually: John Crawford didn't seem to aim toy gun at anyone before police shot at him
posted by zombieflanders at 10:47 AM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
Kind of an understatement, actually: John Crawford didn't seem to aim toy gun at anyone before police shot at him
[T]he footage shows definitively that Crawford wasn't brandishing the toy gun when he was shot — and that he dropped it, ran, and came back before he died.The rest of the article discusses how the police basically get to say they were threatened and therefore they can claim it's a justified killing, which...ugh.
The video, which tracks Crawford as he made his way throughout the store, first shows him walking around while talking on his cell phone and picking up the toy gun from the sporting goods aisle. The video then shows Crawford standing calmly at the end of an aisle, holding the toy gun — pointed at the floor — in his right hand. Occasionally, he swings the gun gently back and forth, but there's no point at which the gun's pointed at anything — let alone at any person.
About one minute and a half into the video, Crawford suddenly moves out of the aisle as police officers enter the store with their guns drawn and pointed. Crawford drops the pellet gun, then trip over it into the rear aisle of the store. The audio in the video, which is taken from a 911 call, suggests police fired almost immediately after they placed their sights on Crawford, but it's unconfirmed whether the audio is accurately synced to the video footage. (The prosecutor in the case said Crawford was shot before he dropped the gun.)
Crawford then moves back into the aisle toward them, then turns away again — at which point he drops to his knees as the cops continue to advance. He falls to his back and his legs splay out (the rest of his body is hidden from view).
The video doesn't show any of the behavior described in the 911 call that sent cops to the scene. The 911 call, placed by a man named Ronald Ritchie (who is white), said that Crawford was "pointing it at people" and "like loading [the gun] right now." The video shows Crawford wasn't doing anything like that when police shot him.
The mostly mute surveillance video doesn't make it clear whether police did, in fact, issue "verbal commands" to Crawford to drop the toy gun. But it indicates he never threatened anyone with the gun.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:47 AM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile in white America, you can get drunk, carry your rifle around on a busy street, and refuse police orders to put down your weapon. You'll get a ten-minute de-escalation and no charges.
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:47 AM on September 25, 2014 [28 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:47 AM on September 25, 2014 [28 favorites]
I have to say, I was more sad than upset about Michael Brown, but then again I'm not a black man. But John Crawford? Holy shit. They might as well just start saying that they shoot people for being black. There's like a million videos on YouTube of open-carry nutbars getting a polite chat from some police officer. This was all clearly video taped in the store. The double-standard is shocking. It's ridiculous. At what point will politicians start policing the police of America?
posted by GuyZero at 10:52 AM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 10:52 AM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]
Meanwhile in white America, you can get drunk, carry your rifle around on a busy street, and refuse police orders to put down your weapon. You'll get a ten-minute de-escalation and no charges.
THIS IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN A SANE WORLD. NOBODY SHOULD GET SHOT FIRST AND QUESTIONS ASKED LATER.
posted by Talez at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [18 favorites]
THIS IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN IN A SANE WORLD. NOBODY SHOULD GET SHOT FIRST AND QUESTIONS ASKED LATER.
posted by Talez at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [18 favorites]
South Carolina Highway Patrol Trooper Sean Groubert
Is a goddamned idiot. Way to control the scene, dude. Pants on head stupid.
The rest of the article discusses how the police basically get to say they were threatened and therefore they can claim it's a justified killing, which...ugh.
Given what the 911 call apparently told them, they weren't wholly unjustified in their actions. It would be better if they used their brains a bit more, I agree.
Mr. White Dude who faked the call needs to spend some time in the pokey and that he hasn't even been charged is the real outrage here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Is a goddamned idiot. Way to control the scene, dude. Pants on head stupid.
The rest of the article discusses how the police basically get to say they were threatened and therefore they can claim it's a justified killing, which...ugh.
Given what the 911 call apparently told them, they weren't wholly unjustified in their actions. It would be better if they used their brains a bit more, I agree.
Mr. White Dude who faked the call needs to spend some time in the pokey and that he hasn't even been charged is the real outrage here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
At what point will politicians start policing the police of America?
Just as soon as they stop calling them all "heroes".
posted by aramaic at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [14 favorites]
Just as soon as they stop calling them all "heroes".
posted by aramaic at 10:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [14 favorites]
Isn't there any way for the DOJ to stop just investigating piecemeal and issue broad guidance on not shooting people?
That's a great idea. Once we remove the "felt threatened" nonsense from the books, the even less legally-justifiable extensions of "stand your ground" could also be done away with.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:55 AM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
That's a great idea. Once we remove the "felt threatened" nonsense from the books, the even less legally-justifiable extensions of "stand your ground" could also be done away with.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:55 AM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
Given what the 911 call apparently told them, they weren't wholly unjustified in their actions. It would be better if they used their brains a bit more, I agree.
Everything that happened after he dropped the toy (which seems to be before the cops opened fire) was wholly unjustified.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:56 AM on September 25, 2014 [8 favorites]
Everything that happened after he dropped the toy (which seems to be before the cops opened fire) was wholly unjustified.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:56 AM on September 25, 2014 [8 favorites]
I couldn't even get through the video of the Ferguson police chief, because of course halfway in he's already busy minimizing things by claiming that the real problem is that while some protesters showed up to peacefully demonstrate, "Unfortunately, there were others who had a different agenda".
You're right, Tom, there were people whose agenda was counter to the notion of peaceful resolution of the situation. You may know them by the name "Ferguson Police Department", "St. Louis County Police Department", or, I suppose more broadly, "the police".
posted by tocts at 10:59 AM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]
You're right, Tom, there were people whose agenda was counter to the notion of peaceful resolution of the situation. You may know them by the name "Ferguson Police Department", "St. Louis County Police Department", or, I suppose more broadly, "the police".
posted by tocts at 10:59 AM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]
So apparently the key to not getting fired is to actually finish the job. Leave no witnesses...
posted by empath at 11:01 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by empath at 11:01 AM on September 25, 2014
Ohio is an open carry state. It was perfectly legal for John Crawford to be holding a real rifle, let alone a fake one. The fact that he was holding a gun (or gun-like object) when police came in the door is nearly immaterial -- other than the false evidence from the 911 call, there was no legal justification for shooting him.
There's very little difference between this and executing someone on the basis of hearsay.
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:01 AM on September 25, 2014 [35 favorites]
There's very little difference between this and executing someone on the basis of hearsay.
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:01 AM on September 25, 2014 [35 favorites]
empath, there were plenty of people who witnessed Michael Brown's shooting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:02 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:02 AM on September 25, 2014
Everything that happened after he dropped the toy (which seems to be before the cops opened fire) was wholly unjustified.
The call was that he was a shooter a la Aurora, and every one of them has multiple firearms. And I think he was shot after he came back into the aisle towards the toy.
I'm not super enthusiastic about the cops response, but it is understandable and in accordance with the law and policy.
The law and policy need to change. But really - Ronald Ritchie needs to be charged and jailed. He set all of that in motion. That he hasn't even been arrested is really problematic, here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:04 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
The call was that he was a shooter a la Aurora, and every one of them has multiple firearms. And I think he was shot after he came back into the aisle towards the toy.
I'm not super enthusiastic about the cops response, but it is understandable and in accordance with the law and policy.
The law and policy need to change. But really - Ronald Ritchie needs to be charged and jailed. He set all of that in motion. That he hasn't even been arrested is really problematic, here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:04 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I can't quite understand why I am apparantly in the minority in thinking that as soon as it is discovered that there was no real threat against the police, that policeman is fired and prosecuted as a civilian immediately. We have gotten to the point that the appearance of a crime/threat is to be taken as the crime/threat. The end of this logic is obviously that all things that 'appear out of sorts' is directly identical to a serious crime.
You can't run a language that way, what makes us think we can run a civil society that way.
Seems Baudrillard was way more prescient than anyone wanted to give him credit for.
posted by FenderBellyBodine at 11:05 AM on September 25, 2014 [9 favorites]
You can't run a language that way, what makes us think we can run a civil society that way.
Seems Baudrillard was way more prescient than anyone wanted to give him credit for.
posted by FenderBellyBodine at 11:05 AM on September 25, 2014 [9 favorites]
empath, there were plenty of people who witnessed Michael Brown's shooting.
Yes but the black witnesses were apparently only 3/5ths as trustworthy as a white one.
posted by Talez at 11:05 AM on September 25, 2014 [19 favorites]
Yes but the black witnesses were apparently only 3/5ths as trustworthy as a white one.
posted by Talez at 11:05 AM on September 25, 2014 [19 favorites]
shothotbot, from your link: Many who live and work in the neighborhoods say they see scant evidence of change, and some say the police are simply not reporting some or all of their stops. The police did not respond to requests for comment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:09 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:09 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
because of course halfway in he's already busy minimizing things by claiming that the real problem is that while some protesters showed up to peacefully demonstrate, "Unfortunately, there were others who had a different agenda".
He doesn't apologise for actually abusing their rights anyway, only that he is sorry that they felt he didn't do enough and were angry and upset.
posted by biffa at 11:09 AM on September 25, 2014
He doesn't apologise for actually abusing their rights anyway, only that he is sorry that they felt he didn't do enough and were angry and upset.
posted by biffa at 11:09 AM on September 25, 2014
And I think he was shot after he came back into the aisle towards the toy.
Vox has put up a correction - he was shot before he dropped it. :
Vox has put up a correction - he was shot before he dropped it. :
Correction: An earlier headline originally indicated John Crawford was shot after he dropped the toy gun, based on a video released with no sound. Full video footage and other media reports suggest he was shot prior to dropping the toy gun. This post was updated with a new headline, more details, and the full video footage to explain the correct chain of events.posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:11 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
roomthreeseventeen, I'm just reporting what they say in the paper. WIth the drop in stops as reported being ~90%, it seems unlikely that there is not a substantial drop, even if all stops are not documented. ACLU put the same numbers on their page without comment, for what its worth.
posted by shothotbot at 11:16 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by shothotbot at 11:16 AM on September 25, 2014
I just hope that, given Holder's resignation announcement today, Obama will be able to get someone confirmed who will carry the ball forward on the many civil rights investigations that are in progress or ought to be. Holder was seen as "controversial", and we know the GOP isn't going to have any interest in confirming anyone who's going to be any better on civil rights issues.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:25 AM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 11:25 AM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
tonycpsu, there is some chatter today of Kamala Harris taking over for AG Holder.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:30 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:30 AM on September 25, 2014
Stop and Frisk is almost gone from NYC
posted by shothotbot
holy cow, if only they had eliminated the stop-and-frisk policy slowly, one neighborhood at a time, and potentially randomly assigned officers to "stop" and "no stop" condition groups - we could get some real data!
posted by rebent at 11:38 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by shothotbot
holy cow, if only they had eliminated the stop-and-frisk policy slowly, one neighborhood at a time, and potentially randomly assigned officers to "stop" and "no stop" condition groups - we could get some real data!
posted by rebent at 11:38 AM on September 25, 2014
tonycpsu: "Holder was seen as "controversial""
He was "seen as 'controversial'" by the same people who wanted his hide for being controversial. Circular reasoning which, oddly enough, reminds me of the Ouroborous - only, the ass is swallowing the head.
posted by notsnot at 11:44 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
He was "seen as 'controversial'" by the same people who wanted his hide for being controversial. Circular reasoning which, oddly enough, reminds me of the Ouroborous - only, the ass is swallowing the head.
posted by notsnot at 11:44 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
roomthreeseventeen: tonycpsu, there is some chatter today of Kamala Harris taking over for AG Holder.
She'd be an outstanding choice, but I'm wondering if she can get confirmed. If I remember right, the filibuster isn't applicable to executive branch nominations anymore, but with so many vulnerable squishy Democrats up for re-election in the Senate, I can imagine getting to 50 might be a challenge.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:45 AM on September 25, 2014
She'd be an outstanding choice, but I'm wondering if she can get confirmed. If I remember right, the filibuster isn't applicable to executive branch nominations anymore, but with so many vulnerable squishy Democrats up for re-election in the Senate, I can imagine getting to 50 might be a challenge.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:45 AM on September 25, 2014
What's needed is a good solid choice that can just get work done.
Honestly, I think our process suffers deeply from the political spoils effect of the President being able to appoint leaders of agencies, rather than just promoting people from within.
posted by corb at 11:48 AM on September 25, 2014
Honestly, I think our process suffers deeply from the political spoils effect of the President being able to appoint leaders of agencies, rather than just promoting people from within.
posted by corb at 11:48 AM on September 25, 2014
corb: Honestly, I think our process suffers deeply from the political spoils effect of the President being able to appoint leaders of agencies, rather than just promoting people from within.
Who would do the promoting of a cabinet-level position?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:51 AM on September 25, 2014
Who would do the promoting of a cabinet-level position?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:51 AM on September 25, 2014
She'd be an outstanding choice, but I'm wondering if she can get confirmed. If I remember right, the filibuster isn't applicable to executive branch nominations, but with so many vulnerable squishy Democrats up for re-election in the Senate, I can imagine getting to 50 might be a challenge.
Yeah, it's definitely not happening before the election, if at all.
I cover the EPA for a living, and the office of water is now entering its fourth year without a confirmed head because of this nonsense. The "temporary" water director, who was just supposed to serve until the permanent replacement was confirmed, served for 40 months! And the kicker was that Republicans hated her. She came from the environmentalist groups and they loved to yell about how she was working hand-in-hand with her old allies to pass new environmental rules that will destroy American business etc. etc. And yet she stuck around for freaking ever because the Republicans also refused to give her (much more moderate, former Congress staffer) successor an up-or-down vote, which would have ejected her from office instantly, because screw the EPA, we're not voting for anybody there.
Holder's said he's staying until the successor is confirmed, so I assume he means he'll serve out at least the next three administrations.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]
Yeah, it's definitely not happening before the election, if at all.
I cover the EPA for a living, and the office of water is now entering its fourth year without a confirmed head because of this nonsense. The "temporary" water director, who was just supposed to serve until the permanent replacement was confirmed, served for 40 months! And the kicker was that Republicans hated her. She came from the environmentalist groups and they loved to yell about how she was working hand-in-hand with her old allies to pass new environmental rules that will destroy American business etc. etc. And yet she stuck around for freaking ever because the Republicans also refused to give her (much more moderate, former Congress staffer) successor an up-or-down vote, which would have ejected her from office instantly, because screw the EPA, we're not voting for anybody there.
Holder's said he's staying until the successor is confirmed, so I assume he means he'll serve out at least the next three administrations.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:54 AM on September 25, 2014 [16 favorites]
(I should note that even after the filibuster ended, the successor still hasn't even made it onto the schedule of future votes, because voting for anyone or anything associated with the EPA for any reason is seen as toxic to the vulnerable Dems)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:58 AM on September 25, 2014
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:58 AM on September 25, 2014
Honestly, I think our process suffers deeply from the political spoils effect of the President being able to appoint leaders of agencies, rather than just promoting people from within
Setting and executing policies are two different things, though one informs the other. You need the top of the agency to be political (in the best sense) so that bureaucracies don't totally set their own agenda. They are supposed to do what we tell them to.
posted by shothotbot at 12:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Setting and executing policies are two different things, though one informs the other. You need the top of the agency to be political (in the best sense) so that bureaucracies don't totally set their own agenda. They are supposed to do what we tell them to.
posted by shothotbot at 12:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I think our process suffers deeply from the political spoils effect of the President being able to appoint leaders of agencies, rather than just promoting people from within.
Inbreeding is rarely a good method.
posted by Etrigan at 12:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Inbreeding is rarely a good method.
posted by Etrigan at 12:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Who would do the promoting of a cabinet-level position?
High-level peer selection.
When I think of this stuff, I think of when Petreus became head of the CIA. Everyone there hated him. He ran roughshod over intelligence community principles. He was not even an intelligence officer, but an infantry one. He was possibly the worst choice that could be made for that position. But he was politically sound and likely to be confirmed.
posted by corb at 12:04 PM on September 25, 2014
High-level peer selection.
When I think of this stuff, I think of when Petreus became head of the CIA. Everyone there hated him. He ran roughshod over intelligence community principles. He was not even an intelligence officer, but an infantry one. He was possibly the worst choice that could be made for that position. But he was politically sound and likely to be confirmed.
posted by corb at 12:04 PM on September 25, 2014
Honestly, I think our process suffers deeply from the political spoils effect of the President being able to appoint leaders of agencies, rather than just promoting people from within.
FWIW, Holder went right from law school to the DOJ in 1976, where he worked his way up the ranks for 12 years, when he was appointed by Reagan to federal court for five years. After that, he accepted a position as DC AG for four years, then became Deputy US AG for Clinton's second term, and only after that did he go into private practice until he became US AG. We're talking about a man who has served (with a good deal of distinction) under both Democratic and Republican administrations, and has been involved in the prosecution of members of both political parties for various crimes. And let's not forget that, previous to his appointment, the DOJ had been revealed to be handing out promotions based not on talent or even ambition, but (in the words of those involved) instead "favored applicants with conservative political or ideological affiliations and disfavored applicants with civil rights or human rights experience whom [the head of the DOJ's Civil Rights Division] considered to be overly liberal," aided and abetted by the then-Attorney General.
Maybe the process suffers because of politicization, but Holder isn't exactly the poster boy for it.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:05 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
FWIW, Holder went right from law school to the DOJ in 1976, where he worked his way up the ranks for 12 years, when he was appointed by Reagan to federal court for five years. After that, he accepted a position as DC AG for four years, then became Deputy US AG for Clinton's second term, and only after that did he go into private practice until he became US AG. We're talking about a man who has served (with a good deal of distinction) under both Democratic and Republican administrations, and has been involved in the prosecution of members of both political parties for various crimes. And let's not forget that, previous to his appointment, the DOJ had been revealed to be handing out promotions based not on talent or even ambition, but (in the words of those involved) instead "favored applicants with conservative political or ideological affiliations and disfavored applicants with civil rights or human rights experience whom [the head of the DOJ's Civil Rights Division] considered to be overly liberal," aided and abetted by the then-Attorney General.
Maybe the process suffers because of politicization, but Holder isn't exactly the poster boy for it.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:05 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
corb: High-level peer selection.
So who puts the peers in place? Are you not aware of the bootstrapping problem here? Unless you take executive branch agencies outside of the control of the chief executive, your idea doesn't work.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:06 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
So who puts the peers in place? Are you not aware of the bootstrapping problem here? Unless you take executive branch agencies outside of the control of the chief executive, your idea doesn't work.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:06 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
So who puts the peers in place?
It's not as though this has never been done before. Take for example, the election of the Holy Roman Emperor* for some time. The prince-electors were the ones who chose the Emperor, who served for life - and once serving, could then choose peerages and consequences for his nobles.
It is possible I may have been playing too much CK2 recently. As always, I blame zombieflanders and RusticEtruscan.
posted by corb at 12:11 PM on September 25, 2014
It's not as though this has never been done before. Take for example, the election of the Holy Roman Emperor* for some time. The prince-electors were the ones who chose the Emperor, who served for life - and once serving, could then choose peerages and consequences for his nobles.
It is possible I may have been playing too much CK2 recently. As always, I blame zombieflanders and RusticEtruscan.
posted by corb at 12:11 PM on September 25, 2014
corb: The prince-electors were the ones who chose the Emperor
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by tonycpsu at 12:13 PM on September 25, 2014
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by tonycpsu at 12:13 PM on September 25, 2014
0xFCAF : Ohio is an open carry state. It was perfectly legal for John Crawford to be holding a real rifle, let alone a fake one.
On top of that, Walmart is a weapons friendly store, in many cases actually carrying both rifles and ammunition as well as accessories like slings, scopes, etc.
Deer season starts in Ohio in a month and a half; if a white man had walked in with a rifle, (not pointed at anyone obviously, just as Crawford didn't), I am willing to bet not one person would have even thought to dial 911, assuming that the man was there to have the gun accessorized. (Guns are supposed to be in cases or holstered when entering a store, but I know that is often a wish more than a requirement.)
I still feel that open carry is frequently used as a form of intimidation, so I'm not going to defend it here, but it's the law of the land in Ohio, and allowed in Walmart.
In the absence of any other reasonable explanation, and the huge number of examples of minorities being excessively policed (my depressing euphemism for the exceedingly rough treatment of blacks), I can only make the conjecture that this man was killed because he was a-black-man-doing-something-that-only-white-people-are-allowed-to-do.
posted by quin at 12:15 PM on September 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
On top of that, Walmart is a weapons friendly store, in many cases actually carrying both rifles and ammunition as well as accessories like slings, scopes, etc.
Deer season starts in Ohio in a month and a half; if a white man had walked in with a rifle, (not pointed at anyone obviously, just as Crawford didn't), I am willing to bet not one person would have even thought to dial 911, assuming that the man was there to have the gun accessorized. (Guns are supposed to be in cases or holstered when entering a store, but I know that is often a wish more than a requirement.)
I still feel that open carry is frequently used as a form of intimidation, so I'm not going to defend it here, but it's the law of the land in Ohio, and allowed in Walmart.
In the absence of any other reasonable explanation, and the huge number of examples of minorities being excessively policed (my depressing euphemism for the exceedingly rough treatment of blacks), I can only make the conjecture that this man was killed because he was a-black-man-doing-something-that-only-white-people-are-allowed-to-do.
posted by quin at 12:15 PM on September 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
When I think of this stuff, I think of when Petreus became head of the CIA. Everyone there hated him. He ran roughshod over intelligence community principles. He was not even an intelligence officer, but an infantry one.
Or you could think of when George C. Marshall, also a career infantry officer, became Secretary of State.
posted by Etrigan at 12:18 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Or you could think of when George C. Marshall, also a career infantry officer, became Secretary of State.
posted by Etrigan at 12:18 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Take for example, the election of the Holy Roman Emperor* for some time. The prince-electors were the ones who chose the Emperor, who served for life - and once serving, could then choose peerages and consequences for his nobles.
And the Holy Roman Empire was a model of political stability and perseverance!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:20 PM on September 25, 2014
And the Holy Roman Empire was a model of political stability and perseverance!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:20 PM on September 25, 2014
I think we really need the FBI or some similar organization to be responsible for investigating deaths at the hands of police. I don't think you could ever convince me of the impartiality of local or even state-level reviews. Letting police agencies investigate their own wrong-doing strikes me as of a kind with our current tendency to allow other industries to effectively self-regulate themselves. We need something like a Glass-Steagall Act for the police.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:24 PM on September 25, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:24 PM on September 25, 2014 [10 favorites]
awhile back in my native state of california, a white male CHP officer was videotaped straddling a black woman on a freeway shoulder and striking her with his fist at least nine times. the LA times reported today that the CHP just paid out 1.5 million dollars and allowed him to resign, but he hasn't been charged with anything yet.
posted by bruce at 12:27 PM on September 25, 2014
posted by bruce at 12:27 PM on September 25, 2014
Isn't there any way for the DOJ to stop just investigating piecemeal and issue broad guidance on not shooting people?
Isn't there any way for cops to not shoot unarmed people?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:36 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Isn't there any way for cops to not shoot unarmed people?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:36 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Chief Jackson did not apologize for the death of Brown. He said, "I am truly sorry for the loss of your son." He could have said the same if Brown were struck by lightning.
To be fair, Jackson did apologize for leaving Brown too long on the street - but then said it was necessary, to make sure the investigation into the random lightning strike was done correctly. "I’m also sorry that it took so long to remove Michael from the street. The time that it took involved very important work on the part of investigators who were trying to collect evidence and gain a true picture of what happened that day. But it was just too long, and I’m truly sorry for that."
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:36 PM on September 25, 2014
To be fair, Jackson did apologize for leaving Brown too long on the street - but then said it was necessary, to make sure the investigation into the random lightning strike was done correctly. "I’m also sorry that it took so long to remove Michael from the street. The time that it took involved very important work on the part of investigators who were trying to collect evidence and gain a true picture of what happened that day. But it was just too long, and I’m truly sorry for that."
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:36 PM on September 25, 2014
there is no sane justification for the shooting of crawford. even with the phone call, it's up to the officers to assess the situation before they execute someone. they killed him and then they got away with it because he was black, full stop.
posted by nadawi at 1:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:02 PM on September 25, 2014 [7 favorites]
Isn't there any way for the DOJ to stop just investigating piecemeal and issue broad guidance on not shooting people?
Sure, but then you would have to convince America that killing bad guys is still murder. We believe you should be able to kill when you feel it's justified.
I bet a majority of metafilter believes justifiable homicide is a moral good.
posted by ennui.bz at 1:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Sure, but then you would have to convince America that killing bad guys is still murder. We believe you should be able to kill when you feel it's justified.
I bet a majority of metafilter believes justifiable homicide is a moral good.
posted by ennui.bz at 1:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile in white America, you can get drunk, carry your rifle around on a busy street, and refuse police orders to put down your weapon.
that happened about 6 or 7 blocks from where i live - yeah, i feel a lot safer knowing that drunks can carry around rifles in my neighborhood
i know some black people who are convinced that he'd have been shot if he'd been black - certainly not going to argue with them on that
some of them even live in the neighborhood, so i'm not so sure you should call it "white america", ok?- milwood is pretty integrated
posted by pyramid termite at 1:07 PM on September 25, 2014
that happened about 6 or 7 blocks from where i live - yeah, i feel a lot safer knowing that drunks can carry around rifles in my neighborhood
i know some black people who are convinced that he'd have been shot if he'd been black - certainly not going to argue with them on that
some of them even live in the neighborhood, so i'm not so sure you should call it "white america", ok?- milwood is pretty integrated
posted by pyramid termite at 1:07 PM on September 25, 2014
i do not trust america or our racist, white supremacist police and justice system to adequately identify bad guys. i don't know what the answer is, but it seems clear that the whole fucking thing is rotten to the core.
posted by nadawi at 1:07 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:07 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Just another article on the murder of John Crawford III by police :
Ohio “Open Carry” Laws Could Spell Murder Charges for Cops who Shot Innocent Man
We should start universally referring to all "officer involved shootings" as "murder" btw.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:11 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Ohio “Open Carry” Laws Could Spell Murder Charges for Cops who Shot Innocent Man
We should start universally referring to all "officer involved shootings" as "murder" btw.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:11 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
I bet a majority of metafilter believes justifiable homicide is a moral good.
posted by Talez at 1:13 PM on September 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
To rule a justifiable homicide, one must objectively prove to a trier of fact, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the suspect intended to commit violence.If we could get to that standard I'd throw a god damned parade. At the moment the standard is "well I got the heebie jeebies about that guy so I fired".
posted by Talez at 1:13 PM on September 25, 2014 [11 favorites]
Anybody else receive an insincere, between-the-lines message because the Chief of Police delivered his taped apology out of uniform?
posted by Rash at 1:28 PM on September 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by Rash at 1:28 PM on September 25, 2014 [6 favorites]
oh, and if thomas jackson wants to be part of the conversation, he can shut and listen
if he wants to be part of the solution, he can resign
posted by pyramid termite at 1:29 PM on September 25, 2014
if he wants to be part of the solution, he can resign
posted by pyramid termite at 1:29 PM on September 25, 2014
good point, rash - man's dressed for a damned barbeque, not a formal police statement
posted by pyramid termite at 1:30 PM on September 25, 2014
posted by pyramid termite at 1:30 PM on September 25, 2014
It's not as though this has never been done before. Take for example, the election of the Holy Roman Emperor* for some time. The prince-electors were the ones who chose the Emperor, who served for life - and once serving, could then choose peerages and consequences for his nobles.
It is possible I may have been playing too much CK2 recently. As always, I blame zombieflanders and RusticEtruscan.
the Holy Roman Empire was, uh, not as stable and powerful, historically, as the portrayal of it and its mode of succession in a computer game might imply
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:36 PM on September 25, 2014
It is possible I may have been playing too much CK2 recently. As always, I blame zombieflanders and RusticEtruscan.
the Holy Roman Empire was, uh, not as stable and powerful, historically, as the portrayal of it and its mode of succession in a computer game might imply
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:36 PM on September 25, 2014
not many people realize this but milwood is the last surviving part of the holy roman empire
posted by pyramid termite at 1:40 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 1:40 PM on September 25, 2014 [4 favorites]
Anybody else receive an insincere, between-the-lines message because the Chief of Police delivered his taped apology out of uniform?
Thought it might be designed to seem more "human" and less official. Equally bad, IMHO.
And I want to reserve murder for people who have been convicted. "Alleged murderer" fits, though. For now.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Thought it might be designed to seem more "human" and less official. Equally bad, IMHO.
And I want to reserve murder for people who have been convicted. "Alleged murderer" fits, though. For now.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 2:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
he will never be convicted, i am not a court of law, i am totally fine with calling darren wilson a murderer.
posted by nadawi at 2:11 PM on September 25, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:11 PM on September 25, 2014 [9 favorites]
Video Shows South Carolina Cop Shooting Black Man Without Any Apparent Provocation
Notably, the cop has already been fired and is facing felony charges.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:30 PM on September 25, 2014
Notably, the cop has already been fired and is facing felony charges.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:30 PM on September 25, 2014
Notably, the cop has already been fired and is facing felony charges.
Well the cop is black so that's not really notable at all.
Oh wait I'm wrong, that was NOLA where that happened.
posted by Talez at 2:53 PM on September 25, 2014
Well the cop is black so that's not really notable at all.
Oh wait I'm wrong, that was NOLA where that happened.
posted by Talez at 2:53 PM on September 25, 2014
The one where the black cop was in an officer involved shooting was the 14 year old kid being shot in the back.
posted by Talez at 3:03 PM on September 25, 2014
posted by Talez at 3:03 PM on September 25, 2014
Yeah, he's white, and the race that matters is that of the victim, not of the cops. Black cops don't seem any more hesitant to shoot first, shoot second, and maybe ask questions when their magazine is empty than white cops.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by tonycpsu at 3:04 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Seems like it's time for the bloods and crips to unite back into the black panthers and start open carrying again. Oh yeah its FBI worthy instigation when black people open carry. Makes me want to listen to "Field Nigga Boogie" by Paris.
posted by aydeejones at 3:04 PM on September 25, 2014
posted by aydeejones at 3:04 PM on September 25, 2014
It makes me feel kind of sick that I'm struggling to keep up with all of the officer shootings of black people. There's 45 million black people in the US but Jesus Christ how quick do they need to keep gunning them down?!?
posted by Talez at 3:08 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Talez at 3:08 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I went ahead and re-listened to the Paris track I mentioned (the two YouTube videos don't represent the whole song as far as I can tell) and while it's really a revenge fantasy the tension is so palpable today, and it contains that "no justice, no peace" line that someone brought up during the Ferguson protests. Paris is a truther and an Alex Jones devotee, which is hard to process, but the words speak for themselves:
To protect and to serve is a myth to us
They protect they shit and serve sticks to us
Fuck a waterhose nigga, those days is thru
All a pig's gotta do nowadays is shoot
But who police the police when they
Beat brothers to the ground like - everyday
What I'm sayin', what if niggas start shootin' 'em back?
Spit caps outta gats 'till the beast collapse?
With an eye for an eye, ain't no time to play
With an eye for an eye - it's the Amerikkkan way
Do it big see the jig split wigs of foes
Bust shots at these pigs - nigga dig the flow and
Hear us all say "power to the people" combined
Hold court in the streets 'till these pigs comply
Niggas got no choice but to ride or die
Put this beast on it's back - genocide's the plight, we bring the raw shit.
posted by aydeejones at 3:42 PM on September 25, 2014
To protect and to serve is a myth to us
They protect they shit and serve sticks to us
Fuck a waterhose nigga, those days is thru
All a pig's gotta do nowadays is shoot
But who police the police when they
Beat brothers to the ground like - everyday
What I'm sayin', what if niggas start shootin' 'em back?
Spit caps outta gats 'till the beast collapse?
With an eye for an eye, ain't no time to play
With an eye for an eye - it's the Amerikkkan way
Do it big see the jig split wigs of foes
Bust shots at these pigs - nigga dig the flow and
Hear us all say "power to the people" combined
Hold court in the streets 'till these pigs comply
Niggas got no choice but to ride or die
Put this beast on it's back - genocide's the plight, we bring the raw shit.
posted by aydeejones at 3:42 PM on September 25, 2014
I watched this video three times and I'm absolutely sick in my stomach. Crawford was never threatening or dangerous with that gun - not for one moment! When he came into the store he was talking on his phone and bouncing along like young people do. He spotted the gun on a shelf, picked it up and walked through the store with it. Most of the time he was off camera so you couldn't tell if he was playing with it or just carrying it, but then he stops at the end of an aisle with no one in it and just stands there twirling the thing around and around - I'd bet $100 easy that he was preoccupied with his phone conversation and just dinking with the stupid gun at the same time. NOTE: I could see ANY teenage boy of any color now or anytime in the past 30 years doing exactly the same thing! Then the cops show up, sneak around clearing the area - not that there was anyone anywhere near Crawford in the first place - and then they just shot him! He never even looked at them - had no idea what hit him. They never told him to drop the gun, never made any kind of warning to him - they just flat-out shot and killed him. I'm absolutely sick to my stomach. Bastards.
I too am enraged, spitbull. The fact that the moron who called the police on Crawford is still running around loose is outrageous. If I could be more generous than I can, I'd say it's hard to blame the jackass because he's undoubtedly been fed and nourished on Tea Party crap via radio/TV so when he sees a black guy with a toy gun he thinks the Muslims have arrived who are supposed to be coming to kill all the white people. When you have a subnormal IQ to begin with and then you're trained like Pavlov's dogs to respond to certain triggers with specific reactionary behavior, you're a perfect setup for this kind of situation. I hope they lock this goon up and prosecute the heck out of the police, but do I think any of that will happen? Hah.
posted by aryma at 5:14 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
I too am enraged, spitbull. The fact that the moron who called the police on Crawford is still running around loose is outrageous. If I could be more generous than I can, I'd say it's hard to blame the jackass because he's undoubtedly been fed and nourished on Tea Party crap via radio/TV so when he sees a black guy with a toy gun he thinks the Muslims have arrived who are supposed to be coming to kill all the white people. When you have a subnormal IQ to begin with and then you're trained like Pavlov's dogs to respond to certain triggers with specific reactionary behavior, you're a perfect setup for this kind of situation. I hope they lock this goon up and prosecute the heck out of the police, but do I think any of that will happen? Hah.
posted by aryma at 5:14 PM on September 25, 2014 [5 favorites]
He was cornered too. In the very back corner of the store. With absolutely nobody around.
posted by Talez at 5:54 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Talez at 5:54 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
The bias fighters: Psychologists are testing ways to reduce unconscious racial prejudice--not just in the police, but in all of us.
posted by homunculus at 6:26 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 6:26 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't want psychologists doing anything to reduce material in my unconscious ever. This is one of those ideas that sounds grand in the beginning, but if history is any guide what they'd be reducing is prejudice against the police - we need to get these people who are getting loudly indignant about police brutality mellowed out, y'know.
Just leave my unconscious alone, thank you.
posted by aryma at 10:00 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just leave my unconscious alone, thank you.
posted by aryma at 10:00 PM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]
The video doesn't show any of the behavior described in the 911 call that sent cops to the scene. The 911 call, placed by a man named Ronald Ritchie (who is white), said that Crawford was "pointing it at people" and "like loading [the gun] right now." The video shows Crawford wasn't doing anything like that when police shot him.
So manslaughter charges for Ronald Ritchie?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:03 AM on September 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
So manslaughter charges for Ronald Ritchie?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:03 AM on September 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ohio police given 'pep talk' on shooting scenarios ahead of Walmart encounter
posted by tonycpsu at 7:42 AM on September 26, 2014 [4 favorites]
The police officer who shot dead a young black man in a Walmart store in Ohio as he held an unloaded BB rifle had less than two weeks earlier received what prosecutors called a "pep talk" on how to deal aggressively with suspected gunmen.Horrifying.
Sean Williams and his colleagues in Beavercreek, a suburb of Dayton, were shown a slideshow invoking their loved ones and the massacres at Sandy Hook, Columbine and Virginia Tech while being trained on 23-24 July on confronting "active shooter situations".
"If not you, then who?" officers were asked by the presentation, alongside a photograph of young students being led out of Sandy Hook elementary school in December 2012. A caption reminded the trainees that 20 children and five adults were killed before police arrived.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:42 AM on September 26, 2014 [4 favorites]
Just leave my unconscious alone, thank you.
I'm confused by this. Psychologists studying unconscious racial bias is bad because... conspiracy? This only makes sense to me if you believe the entire field of mental health is corrupt, and if I believed it I never would have sought help for my own issues, which wouldn't be good for anyone.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:48 PM on September 26, 2014
I'm confused by this. Psychologists studying unconscious racial bias is bad because... conspiracy? This only makes sense to me if you believe the entire field of mental health is corrupt, and if I believed it I never would have sought help for my own issues, which wouldn't be good for anyone.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:48 PM on September 26, 2014
I hear you, krinklyfig, and I understand - I'm on an antidepressant and it's made a tremendous improvement in my life. What I'm trying to get at is the idea of psychologists trying to change anything that lives in the UNconscious of a mass of people, a perfect example of which is what happened with the "pep talk" given to the police department just days before this shooting.
Consider just for a moment the possibility that there's too much griping and grumbling about the powers of the police and it's getting out of hand; how about showing a film to all the schoolkids about how important it is to trust the police and keep peace in the community - and the film hits the kids with what it would be like if something happened to their parents or themselves because Mom and Dad couldn't seem to be respectful and cooperative with the police.
A couple of days ago this would sound like a conspiracy theory. Considering the story from Ohio, does it still sound that way?
posted by aryma at 10:40 PM on September 26, 2014
Consider just for a moment the possibility that there's too much griping and grumbling about the powers of the police and it's getting out of hand; how about showing a film to all the schoolkids about how important it is to trust the police and keep peace in the community - and the film hits the kids with what it would be like if something happened to their parents or themselves because Mom and Dad couldn't seem to be respectful and cooperative with the police.
A couple of days ago this would sound like a conspiracy theory. Considering the story from Ohio, does it still sound that way?
posted by aryma at 10:40 PM on September 26, 2014
America’s summer of white supremacy: A postmortem. Michael Brown, Eric Garner, John Crawford: The past few months have seen tragedy after tragedy. When will it end?
posted by homunculus at 1:37 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 1:37 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
So manslaughter charges for Ronald Ritchie?
Well, he's certainly going to be the subject of a civil suit. And the story behind him (and his wife) gets worse the longer you look at it:
Well, he's certainly going to be the subject of a civil suit. And the story behind him (and his wife) gets worse the longer you look at it:
Ritchie had said of Crawford near the start of his 911 call: “He’s, like, pointing it at people.” He subsequently told the Guardian that “at no point did [Crawford] shoulder the rifle and point it at somebody”, stressing instead that he had been “waving it around” and that the muzzle moved in the direction of other shoppers.posted by zombieflanders at 4:46 PM on September 28, 2014
The surveillance footage released on Wednesday shows Crawford passing shoppers with the gun at his side. After arriving in a corner of the store, he is seen swinging the rifle at his side and holding it towards a store shelf containing pet products while standing alone and talking on his cellphone for five minutes.
The children who Ritchie appeared to claim were under threat from Crawford were in the store with their mother, Angela Williams. Williams, 37, died of a heart attack in the panic that ensued among customers following the police shooting. “I hope that he’s happy with himself,” her teenage son said of Ritchie in a Facebook post earlier this month.
Ritchie also told several reporters after the shooting that he was an “ex-marine”. The Guardian disclosed last month that he was thrown out after seven weeks in 2008, after being declared a “fraudulent enlistment”. He states that the problem was a mix-up in his paperwork.
In January 2012, Ritchie pleaded guilty in the Montgomery County municipal court to theft. All records of the incident have been expunged by the court and the Huber Heights police department. In 2010 he was fined $250 and given a year’s probation after being convicted by Miamisburg municipal court of possession of drug paraphernalia.
Ritchie and his wife, April, have not spoken publicly since his Guardian interview. Both have changed their names on social media. The day before he called 911 about Crawford, Ritchie posted a meme on his Facebook page featuring the comedian Gabriel Iglesias. “Me, racist? The only race I hate is the one you have to run,” it read. The post has since been removed.
One month later, Ritchie shared with his friends a story from the Tea Party News Network about a group of black men assaulting a white couple in Missouri. The story condemned President Barack Obama and Eric Holder, the attorney general, for ignoring the attack after speaking publicly about the killing of Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old, in Ferguson, Missouri, last month. It described them as “race hustlers”.
Cop Who Murdered James Boyd, Caught Plotting on Dashcam, “I’m Going to Shoot Him in the Penis”
posted by jeffburdges at 9:09 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 9:09 AM on September 29, 2014
I'm confused by this. Psychologists studying unconscious racial bias is bad because... conspiracy? This only makes sense to me if you believe the entire field of mental health is corrupt, and if I believed it I never would have sought help for my own issues, which wouldn't be good for anyone.
No. But the thing is, mental health as a field involves cooperation. You go to them for help with your problems, and they fix the problems you identify and need help with. It'd be a very different thing if you went to them and they fixed you for things they thought were wrong with you, without your consent.
It's kind of like how I'm freaked out right now by people studying how to remove the impact of war memories in order to combat PTSD. Yeah, it'd be great to have some relief for PTSD, a major killer of soldiers and veterans - but I'm not really comfortable with people working on how to relieve the impact of war memories, because it seems really easy to weaponize and I don't trust the government with it.
So it's not about "do you trust the scientists." The scientists that made the A-bomb possible were good people figuring out a problem to help with a good cause. But governments made nuclear proliferation happen. It's whether you trust governments to use the science for good or for evil.
posted by corb at 10:11 AM on September 29, 2014
No. But the thing is, mental health as a field involves cooperation. You go to them for help with your problems, and they fix the problems you identify and need help with. It'd be a very different thing if you went to them and they fixed you for things they thought were wrong with you, without your consent.
It's kind of like how I'm freaked out right now by people studying how to remove the impact of war memories in order to combat PTSD. Yeah, it'd be great to have some relief for PTSD, a major killer of soldiers and veterans - but I'm not really comfortable with people working on how to relieve the impact of war memories, because it seems really easy to weaponize and I don't trust the government with it.
So it's not about "do you trust the scientists." The scientists that made the A-bomb possible were good people figuring out a problem to help with a good cause. But governments made nuclear proliferation happen. It's whether you trust governments to use the science for good or for evil.
posted by corb at 10:11 AM on September 29, 2014
If You Were Gunned Down By Police, What Photo Would the MSM Use to Portray You
posted by jeffburdges at 12:39 AM on October 1, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 12:39 AM on October 1, 2014
Gun nuts' tragic confusion: Why "open carry" groups don't get police brutality
Black men are routinely shot down by police in the country, that's the bottom line. And while it's certainly admirable for open carry advocates to stick to their principles and defend John Crawford's right to carry a toy gun around Wal-Mart, it's failing to see the forest for the trees. John Crawford, Michael Brown, Kajieme Powell, Levar Jones were all unarmed black men killed by police in the last few months. It wouldn't have helped them to actually be carrying guns, real or otherwise.posted by tonycpsu at 7:46 AM on October 1, 2014
Surely these open carry people, however well intentioned, should realize that nice white men and women openly carrying firearms on the street aren't being gunned down on sight by police officers. The worst thing that happens to them is they are forced to show their ID. It's unarmed black men (and unarmed mentally ill people of all races) who are being gunned down on sight by police officers. Are they agitating for their right to shoot cops? I doubt it. Nor should they be.
The problem isn't that people don't have enough guns. The problem is that police are too often using the guns they have. That won't be solved by a bunch of average suburban white people wandering around public spaces with their rifles slung over their backs. Those aren't the people most likely to be shot by police -whether they're armed or not. They're missing the point entirely.
How does that apply to the Huey Newton Gun Club, tonycpsu?
posted by corb at 11:17 AM on October 1, 2014
posted by corb at 11:17 AM on October 1, 2014
I don't see what relevance that has, seeing as how their club specifically stated that they were engaging in working within their own community. The purpose of the open-carry groups and individuals has often been to invade spaces where they weren't welcome, engage in either brand hijacking or instigating shitfits for the lulz, and then start confrontational and aggressive PR campaigns against people who are rightfully upset (sometimes to the point of harassment). And if there's anything that the Crawford case has taught us, it's that even in states with permissive gun laws such as open-carry, the way you are viewed by your fellow citizens like Ronald Ritchie and law enforcement is wildly different based on your perceived ethnicity. At this point, it's abundantly clear that gun laws--and really, the 2nd Amendment in general--has different real-world implications based on race, much of which comes from people who claim to want to advance deregulation.
Come back to us when the Huey Newton Gun Club walks through majority-white neighborhoods chanting Black Power slogans and asking for justice for the latest victim of racially-motivated gun violence and isn't met with fear and loathing from the locals.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:42 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Come back to us when the Huey Newton Gun Club walks through majority-white neighborhoods chanting Black Power slogans and asking for justice for the latest victim of racially-motivated gun violence and isn't met with fear and loathing from the locals.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:42 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you think the purpose of open-carry groups is to be lulzy and invasive, then you're either not looking very deeply, or not looking with very much empathy.
The purpose of most open-carry groups, yes, even the ones who you despise, even the ones whose leaders are idiots or assholes, is to ensure that the law of open carry is protected and established not just in law, but socially, so that no one ever needs to suffer from police harassing law-abiding gun owners who happen to be carrying non concealed.
I share their views, though I don't open carry personally and have never attended an open carry march.
I also think a lot of open carry groups are spectacularly bad at tactics. I am friends with one of the leaders of an open carry group who is sometimes a motherfucking idiot about what he thinks is going to gain broad based support. But that doesn't mean that their idiotic failures are the point. It means they're bad at shit.
posted by corb at 11:54 AM on October 1, 2014
The purpose of most open-carry groups, yes, even the ones who you despise, even the ones whose leaders are idiots or assholes, is to ensure that the law of open carry is protected and established not just in law, but socially, so that no one ever needs to suffer from police harassing law-abiding gun owners who happen to be carrying non concealed.
I share their views, though I don't open carry personally and have never attended an open carry march.
I also think a lot of open carry groups are spectacularly bad at tactics. I am friends with one of the leaders of an open carry group who is sometimes a motherfucking idiot about what he thinks is going to gain broad based support. But that doesn't mean that their idiotic failures are the point. It means they're bad at shit.
posted by corb at 11:54 AM on October 1, 2014
Cops Taser Grieving Man as He Prayed Over His Stepson’s Body
posted by jeffburdges at 12:02 PM on October 1, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 12:02 PM on October 1, 2014
corb: How does that apply to the Huey Newton Gun Club, tonycpsu?
It doesn't, making that small group an exception that proves the rule. If people of color in the open carry movement were a "dog bites man" story then I could see your point, but a vast majority of these rallies and publicity stunts are dominated by a whole bunch of white dudes, with a few white ladies sprinkled in. It's not shocking that black open carry supporters exist, but they're not by any means proportionally represented in the movement.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:27 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
It doesn't, making that small group an exception that proves the rule. If people of color in the open carry movement were a "dog bites man" story then I could see your point, but a vast majority of these rallies and publicity stunts are dominated by a whole bunch of white dudes, with a few white ladies sprinkled in. It's not shocking that black open carry supporters exist, but they're not by any means proportionally represented in the movement.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:27 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Good Lord: Grand jury considering the Ferguson shooting being investigated for misconduct.
"An account of possible jury misconduct surfaced Wednesday morning on Twitter, when several users sent messages about one juror who may have discussed evidence in the case with a friend.
In one of those messages, a person tweeted that they are friends with a member of the jury who doesn’t believe there is enough evidence to warrant an arrest of the officer, Darren Wilson.
The same person who tweeted about being friends with a member of the jury has also tweeted messages of support for Wilson."
(For the love of any deity, principle or philosophy you hold dear, do not read the comments on that article.)
posted by lord_wolf at 8:29 AM on October 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
"An account of possible jury misconduct surfaced Wednesday morning on Twitter, when several users sent messages about one juror who may have discussed evidence in the case with a friend.
In one of those messages, a person tweeted that they are friends with a member of the jury who doesn’t believe there is enough evidence to warrant an arrest of the officer, Darren Wilson.
The same person who tweeted about being friends with a member of the jury has also tweeted messages of support for Wilson."
(For the love of any deity, principle or philosophy you hold dear, do not read the comments on that article.)
posted by lord_wolf at 8:29 AM on October 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Pro tip, Ferguson: maybe it would be easier to have your jurors keep quiet about the case if you didn't keep them on a grand jury for SIX MONTHS. #justsaying
posted by corb at 9:51 AM on October 2, 2014
posted by corb at 9:51 AM on October 2, 2014
The jury has been weighing evidence on the case since Aug. 20, within days of the Aug. 9 shooting. McCulloch told The Washington Post last week that both the FBI and county police’s investigations into the shooting are “pretty much done.” He also said that jurors should be done hearing all the evidence by later this month, but they could meet through mid-November.Emphases mine. Where did you get "six months" from?
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:22 PM on October 2, 2014
They didn't empanel a grand jury specifically to hear this case. It was added to the workload of a jury that was already meeting to consider other indictments. This site says Ohio grand jurors typically serve for two to four months, and if this body has had its term extended to deal with the Brown shooting that could easily reach six.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:46 PM on October 2, 2014
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:46 PM on October 2, 2014
Missed that. Thanks!
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:48 PM on October 2, 2014
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:48 PM on October 2, 2014
Entire Town’s Police Force Went on Strike, It Backfired. No One Wants Them Back
posted by jeffburdges at 7:34 PM on October 6, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 7:34 PM on October 6, 2014
A federal judge held that the Ferguson PD's "keep moving" rule is unconstitutional and has issued a court order specifically banning it in the future.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:13 AM on October 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:13 AM on October 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
Open Carry Protest Held at Walmart Where John Crawford Was Killed For Holding a Toy Gun
posted by jeffburdges at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 6:25 PM on October 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Protest in St. Louis City tonight after cop shoot and kill 18-year-old (also)
posted by jeffburdges at 10:47 PM on October 8, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 10:47 PM on October 8, 2014
from jeffburdges' link:
The officer was allegedly working a second job as a private security guard when he stopped Myers and three other pedestrians around 7:30 local time. Witnesses described the encounter as a “pedestrian check,” comparable to the “stop and frisk” policy employed by officers in New York City.
he wasn't even on the clock!
posted by rebent at 8:17 AM on October 9, 2014
The officer was allegedly working a second job as a private security guard when he stopped Myers and three other pedestrians around 7:30 local time. Witnesses described the encounter as a “pedestrian check,” comparable to the “stop and frisk” policy employed by officers in New York City.
he wasn't even on the clock!
posted by rebent at 8:17 AM on October 9, 2014
Plans For Martial Law in Missouri, Journalists & Activists Being Targeted Ahead of Unrest
posted by jeffburdges at 8:59 AM on October 9, 2014
posted by jeffburdges at 8:59 AM on October 9, 2014
Deadly Force, in Black and White
A ProPublica analysis of killings by police shows outsize risk for young black males.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:13 PM on October 10, 2014 [1 favorite]
A ProPublica analysis of killings by police shows outsize risk for young black males.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:13 PM on October 10, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by corb at 10:46 AM on September 25, 2014 [1 favorite]