“Deaths exist in all countries,”
October 4, 2014 4:03 PM Subscribe
Jean-Claude Duvalier, ‘Baby Doc’ of Haiti, Dies at 63: [New York Times]
"Jean-Claude Duvalier, a former president of Haiti known as Baby Doc who ruled the country with a bloody brutality and then shocked the country anew with a sudden return from a 25-year exile in 2011, died on Saturday."
Good for him.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:14 PM on October 4, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:14 PM on October 4, 2014 [8 favorites]
"bloody brutality and then shocked the country..."
"one of the most oppressive governments in the Western Hemisphere..."
Good things to be remembered for? The phrase "one should not speak ill of the dead" does not seem appropriate here.
posted by greenhornet at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
"one of the most oppressive governments in the Western Hemisphere..."
Good things to be remembered for? The phrase "one should not speak ill of the dead" does not seem appropriate here.
posted by greenhornet at 4:17 PM on October 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
Excellent news.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:18 PM on October 4, 2014
posted by DarlingBri at 4:18 PM on October 4, 2014
He died a free man, which is a good deal more than can be said for many of his victims.
He also seems to have died unrepentant and defending his actions to the end, as well as completely oblivious to the opportunity he squandered to improve the tragic circumstances of his country.
I am not inclined to rejoice in the death of anyone, but the world is very little diminished by this particular loss.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:25 PM on October 4, 2014 [18 favorites]
He also seems to have died unrepentant and defending his actions to the end, as well as completely oblivious to the opportunity he squandered to improve the tragic circumstances of his country.
I am not inclined to rejoice in the death of anyone, but the world is very little diminished by this particular loss.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:25 PM on October 4, 2014 [18 favorites]
May the drainage system at his burial site be unable to contain the piss...
posted by notsnot at 4:28 PM on October 4, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by notsnot at 4:28 PM on October 4, 2014 [10 favorites]
how to respond to these types of figures when they pass on
"Good riddance" generally works. It certainly applies here.
posted by graymouser at 4:33 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
"Good riddance" generally works. It certainly applies here.
posted by graymouser at 4:33 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
I never really know how to respond to these types of figures when they pass on.
How about, "He had to go, but I wish getting rid of him had solved all of Haiti's problems."
posted by Herodios at 4:37 PM on October 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
How about, "He had to go, but I wish getting rid of him had solved all of Haiti's problems."
posted by Herodios at 4:37 PM on October 4, 2014 [11 favorites]
Finally he did something for his country.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:46 PM on October 4, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:46 PM on October 4, 2014 [13 favorites]
When good people die, I personally find it most valuable to focus on the fact that my sorrow at their death is a reflection of my gratitude for their life.
When bad people die, I personally find it most valuable to focus on the fact that my gratitude for their death is a reflection of my sorrow at their life.
The end of a bad life is a relief, just as the end of a good life is a loss, but it seems to me best to focus on the fact that it's ultimately the life we're reacting to, not the death.
posted by howfar at 4:54 PM on October 4, 2014 [43 favorites]
When bad people die, I personally find it most valuable to focus on the fact that my gratitude for their death is a reflection of my sorrow at their life.
The end of a bad life is a relief, just as the end of a good life is a loss, but it seems to me best to focus on the fact that it's ultimately the life we're reacting to, not the death.
posted by howfar at 4:54 PM on October 4, 2014 [43 favorites]
Oh boy, this means we might be getting a Fuck Eulogy in the next Bugle!
posted by JHarris at 5:02 PM on October 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 5:02 PM on October 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
Wow, I didn't realize he was that young. He was younger than I am now when he was exiled. Sometimes I guess it's good to be a slacker.
posted by mollweide at 5:02 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 5:02 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
Instead of, "." do we put, "!" ?
posted by Chuffy at 5:04 PM on October 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 5:04 PM on October 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
!
posted by Chuffy at 5:05 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Chuffy at 5:05 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
The phrase "one should not speak ill of the dead" does not seem appropriate here.
I think Chomsky's comments about Ariel Sharon apply here as well:
I think Chomsky's comments about Ariel Sharon apply here as well:
There is a convention that you’re not supposed to speak ill of the recently dead, which unfortunately imposes a kind of vow of silence because ... there’s nothing good to say.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:12 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'd spit on his grave. I went to Port au Prince in the spring of 1975 while in the Navy. I was a sentimental and observant kid. The poverty broke my heart. Observing that fucked up little corner of the world forever changed my world view (for the better.)
posted by CincyBlues at 5:15 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by CincyBlues at 5:15 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Fuck him. Fuck his memory. Fuck his corpse. Fuck his grave. Fucker.
posted by localroger at 5:16 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by localroger at 5:16 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
*spits*
posted by leotrotsky at 5:23 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:23 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm just glad that he can't do anything horrible ever again.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:24 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:24 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
There are few people whose death I'll actively cheer. Duvalier is one of them. He was a tyrant not because he felt he needed to keep his country together or because he felt there was a greater external threat. No, he just did it because he wanted to.
Fuck him. Party hats all around.
(fourth Chrome autocomplete result for "baby doc duvalier" is "baby doc duvalier returns to hell")
posted by Etrigan at 5:26 PM on October 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
Fuck him. Party hats all around.
(fourth Chrome autocomplete result for "baby doc duvalier" is "baby doc duvalier returns to hell")
posted by Etrigan at 5:26 PM on October 4, 2014 [5 favorites]
He has gone on to his "eternal reward."
posted by harrietthespy at 5:38 PM on October 4, 2014
posted by harrietthespy at 5:38 PM on October 4, 2014
There is a convention that you’re not supposed to speak ill of the recently dead, which unfortunately imposes a kind of vow of silence because ... there’s nothing good to say.
Interestingly, at least in the Times obituary and a couple of other pieces I saw, there also appears to be a convention of largely eliding the complicated and problematic role the US played in Haiti's history of awful governance, especially with the two Duvaliers. They were bad people, but they didn't work alone.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2014 [17 favorites]
Interestingly, at least in the Times obituary and a couple of other pieces I saw, there also appears to be a convention of largely eliding the complicated and problematic role the US played in Haiti's history of awful governance, especially with the two Duvaliers. They were bad people, but they didn't work alone.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 PM on October 4, 2014 [17 favorites]
For those who know only a little about the Duvaliers (like me), the Wikipedia entries are detailed and surprisingly readable.
posted by WidgetAlley at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by WidgetAlley at 5:46 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
He had to go, but I wish getting rid of him had solved all of Haiti's problems.
Oh and one more thing. Baby Doc left power in 1986.
Not too long after that, I got to experience a fantastic Haitian band playing at a music festival. The joy for the present and optimism for the future that those cats expressed over the changes in their country was palpable.
I wish their optimism had been better founded. It's been and going to be a long road for Haiti, but it couldn't started until they freed themselves of this guy.
The departure of Duvalier from Haiti and that of Marcos from the Philippines were among the few positive headlines during the Reagan years.
posted by Herodios at 5:48 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh and one more thing. Baby Doc left power in 1986.
Not too long after that, I got to experience a fantastic Haitian band playing at a music festival. The joy for the present and optimism for the future that those cats expressed over the changes in their country was palpable.
I wish their optimism had been better founded. It's been and going to be a long road for Haiti, but it couldn't started until they freed themselves of this guy.
The departure of Duvalier from Haiti and that of Marcos from the Philippines were among the few positive headlines during the Reagan years.
posted by Herodios at 5:48 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Fuck him. Fuck his memory. Fuck his corpse. Fuck his grave. Fucker.
come on - there can't be anyone who you hate so much that you'd want them to fuck him, his memory, his corpse or his grave
even for money
posted by pyramid termite at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2014
come on - there can't be anyone who you hate so much that you'd want them to fuck him, his memory, his corpse or his grave
even for money
posted by pyramid termite at 5:49 PM on October 4, 2014
As the poet John Donne once said: 'Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind'. The truth is that I'm not feeling too diminished about this one....
posted by McMillan's Other Wife at 5:56 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by McMillan's Other Wife at 5:56 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
I always wondered how such a horrible person could merit the nickname Baby Doc. To the PEDE!
It turns out that his nickname is derived from his father's, François "Papa Doc" Duvalier. The father was actually a doctor, and was known for successfully fighting diseases. Nonetheless, he was responsible for more than 30,000 murders during his reign as President For Life. A possible contributing factor to his ruthlessness might be a massive heart attack he had in 1959 due to an insulin overdose. He was unconscious for nine hours, and associates think he may have suffered brain damage during the time, contributing to a sense of paranoia.
From the Wikipedia article on Papa Doc:
While recovering, Duvalier left power in the hands of Clément Barbot, leader of the Tonton Macoutes. Upon his return, Duvalier accused Barbot of trying to supplant him as president and had him imprisoned. In April 1963, Barbot was released and began plotting to remove Duvalier from office by kidnapping his children. The plot failed and Duvalier subsequently ordered a massive search for Barbot and his fellow conspirators. When during the search Duvalier was told that Barbot had transformed himself into a black dog, Duvalier ordered that all black dogs in Haiti be put to death.
Wonderful. One is left wondering if that kidnapping played a role in shaping the personality of young Jean-Claude. Or maybe just the whole business of having been brought up by a tyrant.
posted by JHarris at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
It turns out that his nickname is derived from his father's, François "Papa Doc" Duvalier. The father was actually a doctor, and was known for successfully fighting diseases. Nonetheless, he was responsible for more than 30,000 murders during his reign as President For Life. A possible contributing factor to his ruthlessness might be a massive heart attack he had in 1959 due to an insulin overdose. He was unconscious for nine hours, and associates think he may have suffered brain damage during the time, contributing to a sense of paranoia.
From the Wikipedia article on Papa Doc:
While recovering, Duvalier left power in the hands of Clément Barbot, leader of the Tonton Macoutes. Upon his return, Duvalier accused Barbot of trying to supplant him as president and had him imprisoned. In April 1963, Barbot was released and began plotting to remove Duvalier from office by kidnapping his children. The plot failed and Duvalier subsequently ordered a massive search for Barbot and his fellow conspirators. When during the search Duvalier was told that Barbot had transformed himself into a black dog, Duvalier ordered that all black dogs in Haiti be put to death.
Wonderful. One is left wondering if that kidnapping played a role in shaping the personality of young Jean-Claude. Or maybe just the whole business of having been brought up by a tyrant.
posted by JHarris at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
35 years too late.
posted by happyroach at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by happyroach at 6:20 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
watch your step to hell
posted by jonmc at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by jonmc at 7:04 PM on October 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I too am suprised he was that young and I remember Papa Doc.
I don't believe in the death penalty. Not because I'm moral but because I don't get to decide who gets killed and so often it's people without resources that are killed by the government, as was the case in Haiti during his reign. He was evil.
There are very few people I would kill if given the chance but Jean-Claude Duvalier would have been one.
posted by vapidave at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2014
I don't believe in the death penalty. Not because I'm moral but because I don't get to decide who gets killed and so often it's people without resources that are killed by the government, as was the case in Haiti during his reign. He was evil.
There are very few people I would kill if given the chance but Jean-Claude Duvalier would have been one.
posted by vapidave at 7:11 PM on October 4, 2014
From the Boston Haitian Reporter last year, in reaction to nostalgia among some older Haitians for the order under Duvalier: Nostalgia for Duvalier is misplaced: He destroyed the country.
posted by adamg at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2014
posted by adamg at 7:36 PM on October 4, 2014
Good riddance.
This got me to wondering what sort of protest music specifically aimed at him and his regime might've been produced in the years of his reign. A quick search turned this up: excerpts from A Day for the Hunter, a Day for the Prey: Popular Music and Power in Haiti.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2014
This got me to wondering what sort of protest music specifically aimed at him and his regime might've been produced in the years of his reign. A quick search turned this up: excerpts from A Day for the Hunter, a Day for the Prey: Popular Music and Power in Haiti.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:53 PM on October 4, 2014
Graham Greene's novel The Comedians is worth a read too for an outsider's perspective on life in Haiti under the Duvaliers. It left me with a strong sense of the surreal atmosphere and arbitrary violence of the regime.
posted by sobarel at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by sobarel at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2014 [6 favorites]
I declare myself 724A for Life.
posted by 724A at 10:17 PM on October 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by 724A at 10:17 PM on October 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
He was a tyrant not because he felt he needed to keep his country together or because he felt there was a greater external threat. No, he just did it because he wanted to.
I'd be surprised if you could produce a genuine example of the first kind: every oppressor ever has put on a show about the good of the country, but do we have one we can take seriously ?
posted by Dr Dracator at 10:59 PM on October 4, 2014
I'd be surprised if you could produce a genuine example of the first kind: every oppressor ever has put on a show about the good of the country, but do we have one we can take seriously ?
posted by Dr Dracator at 10:59 PM on October 4, 2014
The complication of cheering the death of a person like Duvalier is this: his death means that the trial that was planned for his crimes, which I'm reading would have been one of the most important reckonings in Haitian history, will now never take place. So, yeah, "good" that he's dead, whatever, but bad that his death means that he will never face justice.
posted by blucevalo at 11:20 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 11:20 PM on October 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Fuck him and his father. I hope they mark their graves well, because I need to know exactly where to piss if I ever travel there.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 11:39 PM on October 4, 2014
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 11:39 PM on October 4, 2014
I'd be surprised if you could produce a genuine example of the first kind: every oppressor ever has put on a show about the good of the country, but do we have one we can take seriously ?
Saddam Hussein comes to mind.
posted by clarknova at 2:41 AM on October 5, 2014
Saddam Hussein comes to mind.
posted by clarknova at 2:41 AM on October 5, 2014
"To the living we owe respect, but to the dead we owe only the truth."
-Voltaire
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:48 AM on October 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
-Voltaire
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:48 AM on October 5, 2014 [7 favorites]
Good riddance to him --- my only regret at his death is that he got to die peacefully in his sleep in his own home, something he denied to thousands.
His now-ex-wife Michelle, who (like Jean-Claude Duvalier's father, or for that matter his mother) was an active member of that dictatorship and should be held equally to account, as should her father and brother.
posted by easily confused at 5:55 AM on October 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
His now-ex-wife Michelle, who (like Jean-Claude Duvalier's father, or for that matter his mother) was an active member of that dictatorship and should be held equally to account, as should her father and brother.
posted by easily confused at 5:55 AM on October 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'd be surprised if you could produce a genuine example of the first kind: every oppressor ever has put on a show about the good of the country, but do we have one we can take seriously ?
Lincoln expanded the powers of the executive branch, and of the federal government in relation to the states. I think most of us would agree he was justified.
posted by idiopath at 6:55 AM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
Lincoln expanded the powers of the executive branch, and of the federal government in relation to the states. I think most of us would agree he was justified.
posted by idiopath at 6:55 AM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've often voiced the opinion that celebrating a death is in poor taste; I find I'm willing to concede the error of that point of view. I still think that pissing on a grave for its own sake is wrong, but I also think that one can be happy that time has finally brought a monster to their end, and that they will be causing no more suffering.
posted by Mooski at 6:56 AM on October 5, 2014
posted by Mooski at 6:56 AM on October 5, 2014
He was a tyrant not because he felt he needed to keep his country together or because he felt there was a greater external threat. No, he just did it because he wanted to.
I'd be surprised if you could produce a genuine example of the first kind: every oppressor ever has put on a show about the good of the country, but do we have one we can take seriously ?
I don't mean to say that they're ever really justified in thinking one of those two things, but those are the two major rationalizations that tyrants use, and Duvalier didn't even bother trying. He was just a straight-up kleptocrat without pretension.
posted by Etrigan at 7:01 AM on October 5, 2014
I'd be surprised if you could produce a genuine example of the first kind: every oppressor ever has put on a show about the good of the country, but do we have one we can take seriously ?
I don't mean to say that they're ever really justified in thinking one of those two things, but those are the two major rationalizations that tyrants use, and Duvalier didn't even bother trying. He was just a straight-up kleptocrat without pretension.
posted by Etrigan at 7:01 AM on October 5, 2014
Neither the NYT or the Wiki mentioned that his other nickname was Basket Head.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:19 AM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:19 AM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
That may be one nickname for him. I have better, choicer ones. This man won't be missed.
posted by arcticseal at 7:34 AM on October 5, 2014
posted by arcticseal at 7:34 AM on October 5, 2014
This whole notion that we must tread lightly around the death of an unsavory person out of respect never sits well with me. We all know we are going to die. We all know people are going to talk about us after we die. We all have the ability to influence that conversation while we are alive. If I don't feel free to call an undeniable fucker a fucker, it implies a forgiveness and whitewashing he doesn't deserve. I don't believe in vengeance, but for me, forgiveness is reserved for the penitent.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:49 AM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:49 AM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
This is, I think, the first time MeFI has universally celebrated a death.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:58 AM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by five fresh fish at 8:58 AM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
"I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction" --Clarence Darrow, The Story of My Life (1932)
posted by Canageek at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Canageek at 9:59 AM on October 5, 2014 [3 favorites]
This is, I think, the first time MeFI has universally celebrated a death.
I don't think anyone was particularly busted up about Idi Amin.
posted by nickmark at 10:47 AM on October 5, 2014
I don't think anyone was particularly busted up about Idi Amin.
posted by nickmark at 10:47 AM on October 5, 2014
Good riddance to him. It's a pity he didn't die in prison.
posted by rtha at 12:07 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by rtha at 12:07 PM on October 5, 2014
I stood up for Margaret Thatcher purely out of respect for the dead. I'm not going to say a word in defense of this man.
posted by double block and bleed at 3:08 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by double block and bleed at 3:08 PM on October 5, 2014
The phrase "one should not speak ill of the dead" does not seem appropriate here.
I have no problem speaking ill of the dead but don't feel comfortable actually taking pleasure in that death. I see why others would, but his death does nothing to negate all the sorrow he caused.
posted by brundlefly at 5:47 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
I have no problem speaking ill of the dead but don't feel comfortable actually taking pleasure in that death. I see why others would, but his death does nothing to negate all the sorrow he caused.
posted by brundlefly at 5:47 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
And, of course, I was not subjected to him. So who the hell cares about me?
posted by brundlefly at 5:47 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by brundlefly at 5:47 PM on October 5, 2014
His death finally erases the possibility that he will cause more sorrow. Even if someone worse is waiting in the wings we can at least rejoice that this asshole is on his way to Hell.
posted by localroger at 6:41 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by localroger at 6:41 PM on October 5, 2014
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
posted by MissySedai at 9:22 PM on October 5, 2014
posted by MissySedai at 9:22 PM on October 5, 2014
Even if someone worse is waiting in the wings we can at least rejoice that this asshole is on his way to Hell.
The real tragedy of Hell is it either doesn't exist or is filled with the undeserving.
posted by clarknova at 9:39 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
The real tragedy of Hell is it either doesn't exist or is filled with the undeserving.
posted by clarknova at 9:39 PM on October 5, 2014 [1 favorite]
five fresh fish: "This is, I think, the first time MeFI has universally celebrated a death."
Some things are worth celebrating. And if it's universal, maybe it's correct.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 3:14 AM on October 6, 2014
Some things are worth celebrating. And if it's universal, maybe it's correct.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 3:14 AM on October 6, 2014
for his victims.
Unfortunately I think the MeFi comment system limits you to 65535 dots. Probably not enough.
posted by localroger at 8:33 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately I think the MeFi comment system limits you to 65535 dots. Probably not enough.
posted by localroger at 8:33 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Can't get around it: He died unrepentant, without admitting to the awful consequences he generated during his miserable life, so I guess he won. More's the pity that, during his last days, he wasn't burdened with enlightenment.
posted by mule98J at 4:25 PM on October 6, 2014
posted by mule98J at 4:25 PM on October 6, 2014
The people at Microsoft must have enjoyed a sigh of relief.
posted by Meatafoecure at 8:56 PM on October 6, 2014
posted by Meatafoecure at 8:56 PM on October 6, 2014
Counterpunch:How the US Protected Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" Duvalier
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:57 AM on October 10, 2014
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:57 AM on October 10, 2014
« Older Of course, everyone knows about levers... | I cut my teeth on series rings... in the 80's Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
But then again I can say that because I'm lucky enough to have not experienced the horrors personally. I imagine for some people who have lived under tyranny and suffered, when a figure like this dies there is something to be joyful about.
posted by Fizz at 4:12 PM on October 4, 2014 [4 favorites]