Character and ideology and ethics and every day life are all intertwined
October 6, 2014 6:38 AM Subscribe
Ian Welsh on The Role of Character and Ideology in Prosperity and Why We Live In a Shitty Economy for Most People
I didn't really understand this:
You may have noticed; you probably have noticed, that countries are becoming basket cases faster and faster. Some are destroyed by war and revolution, others by forced austerity, but however it happens, the end of anything resembling a good economy in places like Greece, or Ukraine, or Italy, or Ireland or through war, in places like Lybia and Syria is sure. Understand this: what is done to those countries, is being done to yours if you live in the developed world, just at a slower pace. And one day, you too will be more valuable dead than alive.
None of the countries he lists here are similar in any meaningful way, in terms of economy, politics, or state of civil society, except for perhaps Syria and "Lybia."
posted by Nevin at 7:53 AM on October 6, 2014
You may have noticed; you probably have noticed, that countries are becoming basket cases faster and faster. Some are destroyed by war and revolution, others by forced austerity, but however it happens, the end of anything resembling a good economy in places like Greece, or Ukraine, or Italy, or Ireland or through war, in places like Lybia and Syria is sure. Understand this: what is done to those countries, is being done to yours if you live in the developed world, just at a slower pace. And one day, you too will be more valuable dead than alive.
None of the countries he lists here are similar in any meaningful way, in terms of economy, politics, or state of civil society, except for perhaps Syria and "Lybia."
posted by Nevin at 7:53 AM on October 6, 2014
None of the countries he lists here are similar in any meaningful way, in terms of economy, politics, or state of civil society, except for perhaps Syria and "Lybia."
Also, Ireland's economy is doing very well recently, so perhaps things aren't "sure" after all.
I guess using the vague term "good economy" gives him a way to weasel out since he can always move the goal posts for "good", but it seems bizarre to declare that economic recovery is now forever impossible in these vastly different places.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:06 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, Ireland's economy is doing very well recently, so perhaps things aren't "sure" after all.
I guess using the vague term "good economy" gives him a way to weasel out since he can always move the goal posts for "good", but it seems bizarre to declare that economic recovery is now forever impossible in these vastly different places.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:06 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I enjoy reading Ian Welsh, but he is a "glass is not only empty, but lying in shards on the floor, one of those shards having been jammed into your femoral artery" pessimist, so bear that in mind when reading any of his posts. He makes Chris Hedges look positively Pollyanna-ish.
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:33 AM on October 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 8:33 AM on October 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think Welsh gets the macro story right, however: The game is rigged, it's consciously being rigged by those who have the most and are designing things so they get even more, which ultimately results in you getting less.
posted by kgasmart at 8:37 AM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by kgasmart at 8:37 AM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
Those so called good economies are predicated on disastrous policies. The micro rises and falls is not meaningful in the long run, which is shaping up to be pretty grim.
Change the scale to decades, and inquire into how we measure our success then and now, and I'm pretty sure neo-positivism starts to look pretty ridiculous.
posted by clvrmnky at 9:33 AM on October 6, 2014
Change the scale to decades, and inquire into how we measure our success then and now, and I'm pretty sure neo-positivism starts to look pretty ridiculous.
posted by clvrmnky at 9:33 AM on October 6, 2014
But a rising tide lifts all boats, you see. I have a pithy metaphor, you only have facts. I'm sure you can see who the clear winner is, here.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:36 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:36 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
ideology? let me refer you all to this masterful article in The Onion: What the Middle Class Doesn't Understand About Rich People.
posted by ennui.bz at 10:04 AM on October 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by ennui.bz at 10:04 AM on October 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
he is a "glass is not only empty, but lying in shards on the floor, one of those shards having been jammed into your femoral artery" pessimist,
Really? He would fit in well here, then. Though he may be a bit too optimistic for our tastes.
posted by happyroach at 10:18 AM on October 6, 2014
Really? He would fit in well here, then. Though he may be a bit too optimistic for our tastes.
posted by happyroach at 10:18 AM on October 6, 2014
This is the truest thing I've found so far in these articles:
posted by clawsoon at 10:23 AM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
The suburban part of the GI Generation was willing to betray liberalism to keep suburbia, which was their version of the good life, for which everything else must be sacrificed. And sacrificed it was, and has been, because suburbia, as it is currently constituted, cannot survive high oil prices without draining the rest of society dry.The initial election of Reagan in California came from the suburbs; it spread to the rest of the US (and eventually to Canada) when suburban voters became a large enough voting bloc. Suburbia creates psychological distance (my home is my castle; we're not all in this together) as well as the aforementioned complete dependence on oil.
posted by clawsoon at 10:23 AM on October 6, 2014 [5 favorites]
I think Welsh gets the macro story right, however: The game is rigged
At the moment global energy prices seem to exist outside of the laws of supply and demand. Canada's housing market seems completely artificial.
posted by Nevin at 10:52 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
At the moment global energy prices seem to exist outside of the laws of supply and demand. Canada's housing market seems completely artificial.
posted by Nevin at 10:52 AM on October 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
ideology? let me refer you all to this masterful article in The Onion: What the Middle Class Doesn't Understand About Rich People.
Just wow.
I appreciated that the top rated comment on the "article" was:
"Do they burn any quicker than the rest of us?
If you pull off their arms will they grow back?
When you throw them off a cliff does it take any longer for them to hit the bottom?
I really think this needs more study."
posted by stenseng at 11:21 AM on October 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
Just wow.
I appreciated that the top rated comment on the "article" was:
"Do they burn any quicker than the rest of us?
If you pull off their arms will they grow back?
When you throw them off a cliff does it take any longer for them to hit the bottom?
I really think this needs more study."
posted by stenseng at 11:21 AM on October 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
Rich people can afford to stand up and fight oppression.
They just don't (mostly)!
That article is about 90% bullshit, but I actually agree with the "money is about freedom, not status" bit, even if they immediately spoil it by showing a picture of rich women showing off their (no doubt expensive) shoes. That part is brutally honest with the line, "It’s impossible to be truly free without wealth."
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:16 PM on October 6, 2014
They just don't (mostly)!
That article is about 90% bullshit, but I actually agree with the "money is about freedom, not status" bit, even if they immediately spoil it by showing a picture of rich women showing off their (no doubt expensive) shoes. That part is brutally honest with the line, "It’s impossible to be truly free without wealth."
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 12:16 PM on October 6, 2014
The suburban part of the GI Generation was willing to betray liberalism to keep suburbia, which was their version of the good life, for which everything else must be sacrificed.
..which dovetails into this much favorited comment from the "I Get Around" thread....
It's a distinctly American thing for someone to think "the poor can't afford cars; what should we do?" and then conclude "ahh, we must lend them cars through draconian schemes" instead of "we must remove the conditions that make car ownership compulsory."
...it's just one more "fix" duct-taped onto the grotesque Rube Goldberg machine that has unfolded from the tragic urban planning decisions we've made in the last century.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:40 PM on October 6, 2014
..which dovetails into this much favorited comment from the "I Get Around" thread....
It's a distinctly American thing for someone to think "the poor can't afford cars; what should we do?" and then conclude "ahh, we must lend them cars through draconian schemes" instead of "we must remove the conditions that make car ownership compulsory."
...it's just one more "fix" duct-taped onto the grotesque Rube Goldberg machine that has unfolded from the tragic urban planning decisions we've made in the last century.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:40 PM on October 6, 2014
People betrayed liberalism because they were more interested in racism than in an economy that worked for everyone. The self interest was hate.
posted by wuwei at 7:48 PM on October 6, 2014
posted by wuwei at 7:48 PM on October 6, 2014
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posted by robbyrobs at 6:51 AM on October 6, 2014