Artisanal Nut Milks.
December 1, 2014 12:17 PM Subscribe
"For science, I ordered a raw kale salad with radish, fennel, almonds, and a creamy avocado dressing, which requires the digestive powers of a ruminant to power through; the barely edible analogue to a graffiti blaster to the guts." Mike Sula of the Chicago Reader reviews Owen+Alchemy, a "sleek set piece from Portlandia" that offers cold-pressed juice and "artisanal nut milks on tap" in the heavily gentrified Logan Square neighborhood.
I feel sorry for those almonds.
posted by Foosnark at 12:24 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Foosnark at 12:24 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Burn it all down with a clensing fire. Wash the streets clean.
posted by Jimbob at 12:24 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Jimbob at 12:24 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think I'm as tickled by the comments as the review itself. But the most important news I've gleaned is that the Radler apparently has a smoked brisket reuben that I've missed and that needs to be rectified soon.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:29 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:29 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hipster Business Name Generator is great.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:30 PM on December 1, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:30 PM on December 1, 2014 [12 favorites]
I feel sorry for those almonds.
The amount of hippie environmentalists who drink this stuff in the bay area is amazing. Almond milk is responsible for 10% of California's water usage and we are in the worst drought on record. Ridiculous.
posted by bradbane at 12:31 PM on December 1, 2014 [15 favorites]
The amount of hippie environmentalists who drink this stuff in the bay area is amazing. Almond milk is responsible for 10% of California's water usage and we are in the worst drought on record. Ridiculous.
posted by bradbane at 12:31 PM on December 1, 2014 [15 favorites]
bradbane, almonds use 10% of California's water, but I am pretty sure that people do more things with almonds than make them into milk. 70% of those almonds are exported, so I think that placing all the blame on bay area hippies may be unfair.
posted by agentofselection at 12:38 PM on December 1, 2014 [44 favorites]
posted by agentofselection at 12:38 PM on December 1, 2014 [44 favorites]
At best I can roll my eyes at the diet woo.
And the idea of paying $10 for a single serving of juice. I mean, come on.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:41 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
And the idea of paying $10 for a single serving of juice. I mean, come on.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:41 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
The amount of hippie environmentalists who drink this stuff in the bay area is amazing. Almond milk is responsible for 10% of California's water usage and we are in the worst drought on record. Ridiculous.
And what's worse, it tastes awful. In contrast, soy milk and burgers are much less water-intensive than their cow-based counterparts (PDF), and soy milk tastes good (enough).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
And what's worse, it tastes awful. In contrast, soy milk and burgers are much less water-intensive than their cow-based counterparts (PDF), and soy milk tastes good (enough).
posted by filthy light thief at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Ten bucks is the new 2.99
posted by aydeejones at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [16 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [16 favorites]
"Artisan nut milks" sounds like a CAH card.
posted by raihan_ at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by raihan_ at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [20 favorites]
Does anyone know how these sorts of ventures get business loans? Is it just that the owners have enough collateral that it's not a hard decision or is there some other calculation at work here?
It's a mistake to think of gentrification as a cultural phenomena i.e "fucking hipsters" rather than a financial one.
posted by ennui.bz at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's a mistake to think of gentrification as a cultural phenomena i.e "fucking hipsters" rather than a financial one.
posted by ennui.bz at 12:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
I like rice milk the most. Nut milk on tap just sounds like an offensive T shirt slogan like "mustache rides for free"
posted by aydeejones at 12:43 PM on December 1, 2014 [35 favorites]
posted by aydeejones at 12:43 PM on December 1, 2014 [35 favorites]
I think I'm as tickled by the comments as the review itself. But the most important news I've gleaned is that the Radler apparently has a smoked brisket reuben that I've missed and that needs to be rectified soon.
I am very disappointment that, in this context, your spellchecker either did not suggest or you chose not go with: rectumfied.
Also note that Logan Square is not heavily gentrified. It's just big boned.
posted by srboisvert at 12:44 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I am very disappointment that, in this context, your spellchecker either did not suggest or you chose not go with: rectumfied.
Also note that Logan Square is not heavily gentrified. It's just big boned.
posted by srboisvert at 12:44 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ten bucks is the new 2.99
To put this in to context, these are 8 oz bottles, so this juice costs as much, ounce-for-ounce, as a bottle of nice bourbon (e.g. Buffalo Trace) at retail.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:46 PM on December 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
To put this in to context, these are 8 oz bottles, so this juice costs as much, ounce-for-ounce, as a bottle of nice bourbon (e.g. Buffalo Trace) at retail.
posted by Itaxpica at 12:46 PM on December 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
I was trying to figure out of the pull-quote was trying to make a H2G2 joke (pan-galactic gargle blaster, geeze, c'mon). But then google tells me that a graffiti blaster is a chicago invention..
posted by k5.user at 12:49 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by k5.user at 12:49 PM on December 1, 2014
I feel sorry for this guy's digestive tract. Sounds like he hasn't taken a decent crap in about a decade. I mean, really. I am not under the illusion that juice is super great for me but it's better than soda or god knows what else.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:51 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:51 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
From the comments: Oddly enough, the majority of their drinks are on the FODMAP (allergen and inflammatory foods) list, so they aren't really all that healthy
See now, I said to people, I said, back when this whole FODMAP thing started going around the internet: "People are going to believe that FODMAP foods are ipso facto unhealthy, just as they now believe that soy, dairy and gluten are, and the new metric for "am I being healthy enough even though I have no allergies or food sensitivities" will be avoiding wheat, soy, dairy, eggs and the whole long list of FODMAP foods". And people said no, that's silly, people aren't going to believe that everyone should stop eating apples and broccoli and mushrooms and apricots and virtually all beans and so on.
But apparently it's going to be the new healthy, and I will never cook anything for anyone besides myself ever again.
posted by Frowner at 12:52 PM on December 1, 2014 [54 favorites]
See now, I said to people, I said, back when this whole FODMAP thing started going around the internet: "People are going to believe that FODMAP foods are ipso facto unhealthy, just as they now believe that soy, dairy and gluten are, and the new metric for "am I being healthy enough even though I have no allergies or food sensitivities" will be avoiding wheat, soy, dairy, eggs and the whole long list of FODMAP foods". And people said no, that's silly, people aren't going to believe that everyone should stop eating apples and broccoli and mushrooms and apricots and virtually all beans and so on.
But apparently it's going to be the new healthy, and I will never cook anything for anyone besides myself ever again.
posted by Frowner at 12:52 PM on December 1, 2014 [54 favorites]
I had a salad like that at Rosemary's a while back. Huge, huge thing and I was determined to eat it all.
The following two days were definitely a ..... bathroom adventure.
posted by The Whelk at 12:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
The following two days were definitely a ..... bathroom adventure.
posted by The Whelk at 12:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Does anyone know how these sorts of ventures get business loans?
Usually it's small/multiple investors who'll pool their resources and then announce their presence with a poorly designed/maintained website. Much like most smaller retail opportunities, they seem to be investment vehicles for people with disposable income. Hipster food is to the teens what boutiques were to the '80s.
Matter of fact, I just heard from a source that Restaurant Investment Group was raising a fund targeting $1.6M+. That should be enough to spread the risk between a couple of outlets.
posted by jsavimbi at 12:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Usually it's small/multiple investors who'll pool their resources and then announce their presence with a poorly designed/maintained website. Much like most smaller retail opportunities, they seem to be investment vehicles for people with disposable income. Hipster food is to the teens what boutiques were to the '80s.
Matter of fact, I just heard from a source that Restaurant Investment Group was raising a fund targeting $1.6M+. That should be enough to spread the risk between a couple of outlets.
posted by jsavimbi at 12:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Almond milk was a traditional drink in Medieval europe, since there was no refrigeration and cows milk was mostly made into cheese and butter and other store-able forms, the whey used for fermenting vegetables or just as a fermented "small beer" kind of drink.
posted by stbalbach at 12:58 PM on December 1, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by stbalbach at 12:58 PM on December 1, 2014 [10 favorites]
I feel sorry for this guy's digestive tract.
It's interesting to try to pinpoint the place where this review tips over from what it first seems to be, LOLyuppiehipster mockery of nutraceutical health-fad silliness, into sheer childish backlash anti-vegetable food bigotry. For me it was "a graffiti blaster to the guts," which required a quick search to figure out what a "graffiti blaster" was (apparently it's a Chicago-specific name for power-washing walls to remove spray paint) before I understood that it's a euphemism for being unable to eat an uncooked green salad without getting the shits. This certainly helped me understand why he was upset with vegetables, but it also made me feel sadder for his problems than for the restaurant's.
posted by RogerB at 1:02 PM on December 1, 2014 [16 favorites]
It's interesting to try to pinpoint the place where this review tips over from what it first seems to be, LOLyuppiehipster mockery of nutraceutical health-fad silliness, into sheer childish backlash anti-vegetable food bigotry. For me it was "a graffiti blaster to the guts," which required a quick search to figure out what a "graffiti blaster" was (apparently it's a Chicago-specific name for power-washing walls to remove spray paint) before I understood that it's a euphemism for being unable to eat an uncooked green salad without getting the shits. This certainly helped me understand why he was upset with vegetables, but it also made me feel sadder for his problems than for the restaurant's.
posted by RogerB at 1:02 PM on December 1, 2014 [16 favorites]
What's with all the weird quote marks in the review?
> "... a mucilaginous almond 'butter' ..."
Almond "butter"? Does he also enjoy peanut "butter" and apple "butter" on a slice of wheat "bread"?
> "... eight different, uh, 'nut milks' ..."
After munching on his wheat "bread" perhaps he has some, uh, "coconut milk" or, uh, "soy milk".
What the heck? Is this like when kale got popular as a health food and a bunch of people started pretending kale was some weird and bizarre plant they had never heard of instead of an incredibly common vegetable?
posted by kyrademon at 1:04 PM on December 1, 2014 [29 favorites]
> "... a mucilaginous almond 'butter' ..."
Almond "butter"? Does he also enjoy peanut "butter" and apple "butter" on a slice of wheat "bread"?
> "... eight different, uh, 'nut milks' ..."
After munching on his wheat "bread" perhaps he has some, uh, "coconut milk" or, uh, "soy milk".
What the heck? Is this like when kale got popular as a health food and a bunch of people started pretending kale was some weird and bizarre plant they had never heard of instead of an incredibly common vegetable?
posted by kyrademon at 1:04 PM on December 1, 2014 [29 favorites]
See, I like almond milk, which makes me sad due to the water thing and due to the carting-the-bees-around-to-fertilize-the-almond-blossoms thing (I'm always surprised that people consider almond milk vegan). And I have so many friends who are avoiding soy now, and both coconut milk and rice milk have flavors that don't go with all dishes, and hemp milk is expensive. Maybe I will just give up cooking for others.
posted by Frowner at 1:04 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 1:04 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Omnivore reviewer wants you get off his lawn, you salad-eating, nut milk-drinking hippies. How dare you enjoy this place.
(That said, a little steep for this girl's tastes and that is totally where my tastes run.)
posted by Kitteh at 1:06 PM on December 1, 2014
(That said, a little steep for this girl's tastes and that is totally where my tastes run.)
posted by Kitteh at 1:06 PM on December 1, 2014
I am just going to throw this out there. I am so hipster that I lived in Logan Square from 2001-2004. That is, like, WAAAAAAY before it was cool. Ok, not really. It was still a pretty "cool" neighborhood even then.
posted by prozak at 1:06 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by prozak at 1:06 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Frowner: oat milk? I haven't tried it, but I've been considering it to get around the environmental issues of coconut/almond milk and the grossness of soy/rice milk.
posted by Juliet Banana at 1:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Juliet Banana at 1:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
a graffiti blaster to the guts
I prefer the more dignified phrase "nature's broom"
posted by exogenous at 1:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
I prefer the more dignified phrase "nature's broom"
posted by exogenous at 1:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
The broom of the system.
posted by The Whelk at 1:13 PM on December 1, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:13 PM on December 1, 2014 [8 favorites]
Frowner: oat milk? I haven't tried it, but I've been considering it to get around the environmental issues of coconut/almond milk and the grossness of soy/rice milk.
Oh, wait, I did try oat milk - I had forgotten. It had a strong flavor of oats that shone through in the dish. I mean, I think it would be nice to bake with, but not so much for sauces.
posted by Frowner at 1:13 PM on December 1, 2014
Oh, wait, I did try oat milk - I had forgotten. It had a strong flavor of oats that shone through in the dish. I mean, I think it would be nice to bake with, but not so much for sauces.
posted by Frowner at 1:13 PM on December 1, 2014
The Hipster Business Name Generator just gave me "Town & Goldfish".
I actually really like the sound of that, but I can't think of what sort of business it should be. Maybe some sort of bicycle shop/panini boutique. Or a bar with a bunch of old pachinko machines.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:13 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
I actually really like the sound of that, but I can't think of what sort of business it should be. Maybe some sort of bicycle shop/panini boutique. Or a bar with a bunch of old pachinko machines.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:13 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
The neurotic, fact-agnostic obsession with health and pollution is off-putting here rather than just risible because so much money is being made and so many people in America are genuinely hungry and/or malnourished.
I mean, for thousands of years various elites have been seeking dramatically-improved vitality (and often immortality) through the consumption of certain quasi-magical substances while vastly-greater numbers of poor or low-status people went hungry. We should be wondering why the wealthy are so preoccupied with imaginary toxins in their bodies but utterly indifferent to the hungry poor*. That socially-mediated epistemology of health, nutrition, purity and justice is a symptom of how fucked up America really is.
*that is, when they're not being mythologized as zombies or the like
posted by clockzero at 1:14 PM on December 1, 2014 [29 favorites]
I mean, for thousands of years various elites have been seeking dramatically-improved vitality (and often immortality) through the consumption of certain quasi-magical substances while vastly-greater numbers of poor or low-status people went hungry. We should be wondering why the wealthy are so preoccupied with imaginary toxins in their bodies but utterly indifferent to the hungry poor*. That socially-mediated epistemology of health, nutrition, purity and justice is a symptom of how fucked up America really is.
*that is, when they're not being mythologized as zombies or the like
posted by clockzero at 1:14 PM on December 1, 2014 [29 favorites]
"How could my life possibly be out of control? I avoid wheat!"
posted by The Whelk at 1:16 PM on December 1, 2014 [22 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:16 PM on December 1, 2014 [22 favorites]
nut and grain based milks are out
what's in? SKY MILK
collected in artisan buckets by a worker-owned collective
$18.99 per quart, memail me for purchasing info
psst...it's rainwater
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on December 1, 2014 [24 favorites]
what's in? SKY MILK
collected in artisan buckets by a worker-owned collective
$18.99 per quart, memail me for purchasing info
psst...it's rainwater
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:17 PM on December 1, 2014 [24 favorites]
What's with all the weird quote marks in the review?
Is it written by Bennett Brauer?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:17 PM on December 1, 2014
Is it written by Bennett Brauer?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:17 PM on December 1, 2014
The only acceptable milk left is human breast milk, sorry.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:19 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:19 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
The amount of hippie environmentalists who drink this stuff in the bay area is amazing. Almond milk is responsible for 10% of California's water usage and we are in the worst drought on record. Ridiculous.
Ah, but excitable finger-pointing hippie-punchers are forever loath to acknowledge the fact that the production of non-dairy milk requires only a fraction of the amount of water required to produce "real" milk and other dairy products.
Back on-topic, though: Fuck a bunch of "detoxifying" juice bars and their $12/cup grit-laden snake oil nonsense. Belonging to a community that all but universally accepts the notion that you need to alternate between fasting and ingesting certain foods while eschewing others because doing so will rid your body of *~TOXINS~* is my least favorite thing about being vegan (aside from encounters with haughty and self-righteous omnivores, of which the author of the first linked piece is most certainly one). And don't even get me started on the massive canyon of bullshit that is "alkalizing," nor the perpetually hushed and ominous tone reserved for when ostensibly health-oriented dieters talk about "processed" foods. Boo to all that.
That said, guy, kale salad is neither remotely unusual nor uniquely requiring of magical digestive powers. I love (read: very much do not love) how dudes like this so readily leap at the chance to cast aspersions on people who eat a lot of vegetables... because they (we!) eat a lot of vegetables. Someone smarter and funnier than me coined the term "bacon hipsters" for these sorts of folks, all of whom are given to whinging and moaning whenever, like, an asparagus-arugula salad arrives at their table without first being soaked in cow thymus glands or congealed pig fat or whatever it is that they've deemed more worthy of consumption than the veritable pile of Hitlers that is a bowl of leafy green vegetables.
Insofar as the ascension of Logan Square is concerned, I vividly remember when Lula opened because a few of my friends and acquaintances worked there from the get-go and I spent a lot of time asking them why anyone would want to open a restaurant in the middle of what used to be a decidedly sleepy residential area. Then I started hiking over there for breakfast all the time because they were one of the only places in town (aside from Chicago Diner, natch) where I could get a truly superlative tofu scramble. By the time the Empty Bottle folks introduced the Auditorium next door, the transition from decidedly sleepy residential area to hipster central was well underway, so as far as I'm concerned, "Logan Square is the new Wicker Park" managed to enter the collective consciousness circa ~2003.
posted by divined by radio at 1:20 PM on December 1, 2014 [41 favorites]
Ah, but excitable finger-pointing hippie-punchers are forever loath to acknowledge the fact that the production of non-dairy milk requires only a fraction of the amount of water required to produce "real" milk and other dairy products.
Back on-topic, though: Fuck a bunch of "detoxifying" juice bars and their $12/cup grit-laden snake oil nonsense. Belonging to a community that all but universally accepts the notion that you need to alternate between fasting and ingesting certain foods while eschewing others because doing so will rid your body of *~TOXINS~* is my least favorite thing about being vegan (aside from encounters with haughty and self-righteous omnivores, of which the author of the first linked piece is most certainly one). And don't even get me started on the massive canyon of bullshit that is "alkalizing," nor the perpetually hushed and ominous tone reserved for when ostensibly health-oriented dieters talk about "processed" foods. Boo to all that.
That said, guy, kale salad is neither remotely unusual nor uniquely requiring of magical digestive powers. I love (read: very much do not love) how dudes like this so readily leap at the chance to cast aspersions on people who eat a lot of vegetables... because they (we!) eat a lot of vegetables. Someone smarter and funnier than me coined the term "bacon hipsters" for these sorts of folks, all of whom are given to whinging and moaning whenever, like, an asparagus-arugula salad arrives at their table without first being soaked in cow thymus glands or congealed pig fat or whatever it is that they've deemed more worthy of consumption than the veritable pile of Hitlers that is a bowl of leafy green vegetables.
Insofar as the ascension of Logan Square is concerned, I vividly remember when Lula opened because a few of my friends and acquaintances worked there from the get-go and I spent a lot of time asking them why anyone would want to open a restaurant in the middle of what used to be a decidedly sleepy residential area. Then I started hiking over there for breakfast all the time because they were one of the only places in town (aside from Chicago Diner, natch) where I could get a truly superlative tofu scramble. By the time the Empty Bottle folks introduced the Auditorium next door, the transition from decidedly sleepy residential area to hipster central was well underway, so as far as I'm concerned, "Logan Square is the new Wicker Park" managed to enter the collective consciousness circa ~2003.
posted by divined by radio at 1:20 PM on December 1, 2014 [41 favorites]
Why it's almost like there's an ongoing cultural neurosis about the future and healthcare being expressed via increasingly restrictive diets in some vain, desperate attempt to have some agency over yourself and future in the face of unstoppable natural and societal forces or something.
posted by The Whelk at 1:22 PM on December 1, 2014 [38 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:22 PM on December 1, 2014 [38 favorites]
Damnit now I want an asparagus and arugula salad.
posted by The Whelk at 1:24 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 1:24 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
There are places like this in my neighbourhood. I once overheard the "aura" of one of them being praised by someone on the streetcar.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:25 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:25 PM on December 1, 2014
the production of non-dairy milk requires only a fraction of the amount of water required to produce "real" milk and other dairy products.
Yes, well. a very large fraction is a fraction, technically. But that's not the whole story, is it?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:32 PM on December 1, 2014
Yes, well. a very large fraction is a fraction, technically. But that's not the whole story, is it?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:32 PM on December 1, 2014
metafilter: placing all the blame on bay area hippies may be unfair.
posted by cjorgensen at 1:34 PM on December 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 1:34 PM on December 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
Oh my god, divined by radio, you are incredible.
And nope, entropicamericana, by linking that piece, you are exactly proving her point because that piece is being written by--to paraphrase dbr above--a haughty and self-righteous omnivore.
Basically this FPP is going to turn into a pile on between folks of different dietary bents, which will suck because that is some low-hanging fruit right there.
posted by Kitteh at 1:37 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
And nope, entropicamericana, by linking that piece, you are exactly proving her point because that piece is being written by--to paraphrase dbr above--a haughty and self-righteous omnivore.
Basically this FPP is going to turn into a pile on between folks of different dietary bents, which will suck because that is some low-hanging fruit right there.
posted by Kitteh at 1:37 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Does anyone know how these sorts of ventures get business loans?
Businesses like this are started by people who don't need to borrow money. Or to turn a profit for that matter. It's a lifestyle business in every sense of the word. It's about the lifestyle of its over-privileged owners was much as the customers'.
In this case a celebrity chef and a magazine publisher - both of which are also careers limited to people who don't actually need jobs to get by.
posted by Naberius at 1:37 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Businesses like this are started by people who don't need to borrow money. Or to turn a profit for that matter. It's a lifestyle business in every sense of the word. It's about the lifestyle of its over-privileged owners was much as the customers'.
In this case a celebrity chef and a magazine publisher - both of which are also careers limited to people who don't actually need jobs to get by.
posted by Naberius at 1:37 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
The name of this place is very odd to me, as it seems to (wrongly) imply a relationship with the excellent Owen & Engine gastropub, which is only a mile away.
posted by kickingtheground at 1:38 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by kickingtheground at 1:38 PM on December 1, 2014
some low-hanging fruit right there
I'll have you know I only eat fruit from the tallest part of the tree.
posted by The Whelk at 1:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [15 favorites]
I'll have you know I only eat fruit from the tallest part of the tree.
posted by The Whelk at 1:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [15 favorites]
Basically this FPP is going to turn into a pile on between folks of different dietary bents, which will suck because that is some low-hanging fruit right there.
do you know what kind of toxins they have to pump into those trees to make the fruit hang so low??
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:43 PM on December 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
do you know what kind of toxins they have to pump into those trees to make the fruit hang so low??
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:43 PM on December 1, 2014 [7 favorites]
And nope, entropicamericana, by linking that piece, you are exactly proving her point because that piece is being written by--to paraphrase dbr above--a haughty and self-righteous omnivore.
I think maybe you should read the links, Kitteh.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:46 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think maybe you should read the links, Kitteh.
posted by entropicamericana at 1:46 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Damnit now I want an asparagus and arugula salad.
Alternatively, I did a version of this White Bean & Prosciutto Salad (with arugula) recently and it was just about the best salad I've ever made.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:47 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Alternatively, I did a version of this White Bean & Prosciutto Salad (with arugula) recently and it was just about the best salad I've ever made.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:47 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I only eat low hanging grapes. The others are too sour.
posted by meinvt at 1:47 PM on December 1, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by meinvt at 1:47 PM on December 1, 2014 [9 favorites]
And what's worse, [almond milk] tastes awful.
And here I thought it tasted better than soy milk. I was just wrong, I see that now....
posted by lodurr at 1:50 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
And here I thought it tasted better than soy milk. I was just wrong, I see that now....
posted by lodurr at 1:50 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think maybe you should read the links, Kitteh.
I did and while it's not anywhere near as vitriolic as the review of the FPP, it's still unnecessary in that it frames the issue with almonds/almond milks as the fault of hipsters/hippies/vegans and not with the practice of growing almonds and the massive export of them to countries , as well as the fact that what you buy is more water than almonds. He mentions those things, sure, but the way it is written is more "hurr-durr hipsters had a shitfit ain't that something."His original piece was pretty much clickbait to get people who like almond milk riled up. I feel I should expect more from Mother Jones but alas, I do not.
posted by Kitteh at 1:52 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I did and while it's not anywhere near as vitriolic as the review of the FPP, it's still unnecessary in that it frames the issue with almonds/almond milks as the fault of hipsters/hippies/vegans and not with the practice of growing almonds and the massive export of them to countries , as well as the fact that what you buy is more water than almonds. He mentions those things, sure, but the way it is written is more "hurr-durr hipsters had a shitfit ain't that something."His original piece was pretty much clickbait to get people who like almond milk riled up. I feel I should expect more from Mother Jones but alas, I do not.
posted by Kitteh at 1:52 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
also, FWIW, nothing about that salad sounded particularly indigestible. I have never quite gotten the hate for leafy crucifers -- is it striange that I actually find a lot of those ornamental leaf-cabbages to be quite tasty? I used to like to roll up spoonfulls of tuna-mac salad in bits of ornamental cabbage garnish at this lunch counter I went to a lot for a couple of years.
Kale I'm relatively new to, but apart from the stems, I find it much easier on my gut than spinach. And I like it a lot for beans & greens. (That and beet greens are my faves for beans & greens, though red chard will do in a pinch. Gotta try some collard, next -- another leafy green I find much easier to eat than popular legend would have had me believe.)
posted by lodurr at 1:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Kale I'm relatively new to, but apart from the stems, I find it much easier on my gut than spinach. And I like it a lot for beans & greens. (That and beet greens are my faves for beans & greens, though red chard will do in a pinch. Gotta try some collard, next -- another leafy green I find much easier to eat than popular legend would have had me believe.)
posted by lodurr at 1:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Reminder that the push for environmentalism to be about individual responsibility and consumer choice was a tactic to avoid actual regulation and enforcement of pro-environmental policy.
posted by The Whelk at 2:00 PM on December 1, 2014 [29 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 2:00 PM on December 1, 2014 [29 favorites]
You know, according to some theories it's the invention of cooking that allowed our brains to expand and us to become the humans we are today. We have very small and inefficient digestive tracts - certainly compared to ruminants, but also compared to other apes. Our big brains require a lot of calories. But a million or two years ago, our ancestors figured out how to use their brains to compensate for their lack of guts - grind up this, strip the husk off of that, put those in a fire for a while, etc. This created enough of a caloric surplus to enable our brains to get bigger, giving us the capacity to find even more ways to externalize our digestion. Modern humans are made possible by the culinary arts.
To eat a big bowl of raw kale is to disrespect our ancestors' painstaking progress.
posted by echo target at 2:02 PM on December 1, 2014 [9 favorites]
To eat a big bowl of raw kale is to disrespect our ancestors' painstaking progress.
posted by echo target at 2:02 PM on December 1, 2014 [9 favorites]
(also, I apologize for getting so het up something so silly like a review. I am off to a holiday party now.)
posted by Kitteh at 2:02 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 2:02 PM on December 1, 2014
Based on the education I have received here in metafilter threads, I have learned that different people have different digestive systems, so perhaps this fellow really doesn't do well with kale. I myself have to consume things made with chickpea flour in moderation, which is very sad because chickpea flour is great. I would much rather blame him for digestive hippie-punching, but I know only too well that it's possible to have a surprising and unpleasant response to certain fibrous things even when you can digest others.
posted by Frowner at 2:03 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 2:03 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Frowner: Just for future reference you may cook for me any time, using any kind of milk whatsoever which you feel the dish demands.
poppin boffin: I originally read this as "The only acceptable milk is the left human breast milk," which also made perfect sense in context.
posted by seyirci at 2:07 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
poppin boffin: I originally read this as "The only acceptable milk is the left human breast milk," which also made perfect sense in context.
posted by seyirci at 2:07 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Eh, there are worse things than almond milk. I went through a phase of having it with cereal. I wouldn't voluntarily drink it, but then I don't drink milk either unless there are appropriate cookies or brownies involved.
I was actually referring to the quoted salad. Kale is vile, and the overall combination just sounds like it's trying too hard at California instead of trying to be tasty. And I like salad.
posted by Foosnark at 2:07 PM on December 1, 2014
I was actually referring to the quoted salad. Kale is vile, and the overall combination just sounds like it's trying too hard at California instead of trying to be tasty. And I like salad.
posted by Foosnark at 2:07 PM on December 1, 2014
The Whelk: I had a salad like that at Rosemary's a while back. Huge, huge thing and I was determined to eat it all.
The following two days were definitely a ..... bathroom adventure.
Reminds me of the old joke: What do you call a vegetarian with diarrhea?
A salad shooter!
posted by dr_dank at 2:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
The following two days were definitely a ..... bathroom adventure.
Reminds me of the old joke: What do you call a vegetarian with diarrhea?
A salad shooter!
posted by dr_dank at 2:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I went to a raw vegan restaurant just to check it out, and... even the salad, which is one of the few 'raw vegan' foods I regularly consume, tasted weird as fuck. It was so bizarre.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:16 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:16 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Kale is useful for decorating around cuts of meat in a butcher department.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 2:18 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 2:18 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I went to a raw vegan restaurant just to check it out, and... even the salad, which is one of the few 'raw vegan' foods I regularly consume, tasted weird as fuck. It was so bizarre.
I really want to like raw vegan restaurants but I always come away feeling like I spent too much money for something I could make at home (I am sure there are delightful exceptions but none seem to be in my price range).
posted by Kitteh at 2:21 PM on December 1, 2014
I really want to like raw vegan restaurants but I always come away feeling like I spent too much money for something I could make at home (I am sure there are delightful exceptions but none seem to be in my price range).
posted by Kitteh at 2:21 PM on December 1, 2014
Ugh, Frowner, I know what you mean about FODMAPs. Time to buy asafoetida futures, I guess.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:25 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 2:25 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I was actually referring to the quoted salad. Kale is vile, and the overall combination just sounds like it's trying too hard at California instead of trying to be tasty.
It doesn't sound that bad, but I agree with you on the "trying too hard" angle. The flavors sound more like they'd be muddy and confusing as opposed to being inedible glop. But saying that just makes me sound like a serious foodie poser with all that "flavor profile" crap, and I own that.
* shrug * I somehow never got the memo when I was a kid that vegetables were icky. My only problems with any vegetable have always been digestive rather than gustatory (broccoli and brussel sprouts give me MASSIVE indigestion, so I avoid those, but I feel all sad about it because I actually LIKED them both). Kale, I like.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:30 PM on December 1, 2014
It doesn't sound that bad, but I agree with you on the "trying too hard" angle. The flavors sound more like they'd be muddy and confusing as opposed to being inedible glop. But saying that just makes me sound like a serious foodie poser with all that "flavor profile" crap, and I own that.
* shrug * I somehow never got the memo when I was a kid that vegetables were icky. My only problems with any vegetable have always been digestive rather than gustatory (broccoli and brussel sprouts give me MASSIVE indigestion, so I avoid those, but I feel all sad about it because I actually LIKED them both). Kale, I like.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:30 PM on December 1, 2014
I'm somewhat boggled why a quite ordinary salad is being seen as crazy hipster. I'm not a huge raw kale fan myself, but it's no stranger than raw spinach salads (which I love) or broccoli crudites (which I don't but know plenty of people who do). Radishes, almonds, avocado? Sounds pretty standard to me.
posted by tavella at 2:33 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 2:33 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
The only thing wrong with that kale salad is the radish. But kale salad with a creamy avocado dressing sounds fabulous, especially after the last week of rich food.
posted by suelac at 2:41 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by suelac at 2:41 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
God I love sauerkraut.
God I hate what it does to my digestive system.
Shifting to a totally different topic now, Zagat just rated a vegan restaurant #1 overall in Philly. Can't wait to go sometime.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:06 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
God I hate what it does to my digestive system.
Shifting to a totally different topic now, Zagat just rated a vegan restaurant #1 overall in Philly. Can't wait to go sometime.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:06 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Interesting.. Giles Coren on his Million Dollar Review show didn't review Vedge that highly.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:10 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:10 PM on December 1, 2014
Vedge is where I want to for my 40th if I can't get there so sooner. Rich is a genius.
posted by Kitteh at 3:13 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 3:13 PM on December 1, 2014
Almond milk was a traditional drink in Medieval europe, since there was no refrigeration and cows milk was mostly made into cheese and butter and other store-able forms, the whey used for fermenting vegetables or just as a fermented "small beer" kind of drink.
Note that almond milk will go (horribly) foul very quickly without refrigeration. It wasn't used as a replacement for cow's milk because it keeps. It was used as a replacement because raw almonds keep, and almond milk can be made on demand, whereas cows will only produce significant amounts of milk for part of the year (normally). Another reason milk alternatives were used is that the consumption of milk was prohibited during Lent (a time of the year when the cows, goats, and sheep weren't producing much of it, anyway, it should be noted).
Finally, I'll note that almonds were an expensive product in medieval Europe just as they are now, especially far from where they are grown (e.g. importing almonds into England was quite pricey). While surviving medieval cookbooks are replete with recipes involving almond milk, we should bear in mind that those cookbooks were written by and for people who cooked for the very wealthy (e.g. people who could afford (literate) cooks and handwritten (!) books to teach them with).
posted by jedicus at 3:22 PM on December 1, 2014 [8 favorites]
Note that almond milk will go (horribly) foul very quickly without refrigeration. It wasn't used as a replacement for cow's milk because it keeps. It was used as a replacement because raw almonds keep, and almond milk can be made on demand, whereas cows will only produce significant amounts of milk for part of the year (normally). Another reason milk alternatives were used is that the consumption of milk was prohibited during Lent (a time of the year when the cows, goats, and sheep weren't producing much of it, anyway, it should be noted).
Finally, I'll note that almonds were an expensive product in medieval Europe just as they are now, especially far from where they are grown (e.g. importing almonds into England was quite pricey). While surviving medieval cookbooks are replete with recipes involving almond milk, we should bear in mind that those cookbooks were written by and for people who cooked for the very wealthy (e.g. people who could afford (literate) cooks and handwritten (!) books to teach them with).
posted by jedicus at 3:22 PM on December 1, 2014 [8 favorites]
divined by radio: "so as far as I'm concerned, "Logan Square is the new Wicker Park" managed to enter the collective consciousness circa ~2003."
So... you were into it before it was popular?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:50 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
So... you were into it before it was popular?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:50 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm not a huge raw kale fan myself, but it's no stranger than raw spinach salads
Ah, but kale falls into the cruciferous vegetables category (a brassica, like broccoli and brussel sprouts), while the seemingly closely related leafy green swiss chard (or silverbeet, in other places?) is in the spinach family. Learning this distinction has saved me much unhappiness, since I can eat spinachy things raw and be fine, but more than a few bites of anything in the brassica family that isn't cooked to floppy and I risk being doubled over in discomfort.
posted by deludingmyself at 3:54 PM on December 1, 2014
Ah, but kale falls into the cruciferous vegetables category (a brassica, like broccoli and brussel sprouts), while the seemingly closely related leafy green swiss chard (or silverbeet, in other places?) is in the spinach family. Learning this distinction has saved me much unhappiness, since I can eat spinachy things raw and be fine, but more than a few bites of anything in the brassica family that isn't cooked to floppy and I risk being doubled over in discomfort.
posted by deludingmyself at 3:54 PM on December 1, 2014
Zagat just rated a vegan restaurant #1 overall in Philly.
Philadelphia is a surprising hotspot for great food. I suspect that, living in the shadow of NYC, a lot of great chefs go there to cut their teeth and test out concepts, so there is a lot of tasty food to be found. It used to have a high-profile restaurant called Horizons that made (to the tastebuds of this omnivore) creative vegan food that you would expect in preparations found in fine dining. I think it went under a few years ago, sadly, but maybe its owners are doing something new now.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:56 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Philadelphia is a surprising hotspot for great food. I suspect that, living in the shadow of NYC, a lot of great chefs go there to cut their teeth and test out concepts, so there is a lot of tasty food to be found. It used to have a high-profile restaurant called Horizons that made (to the tastebuds of this omnivore) creative vegan food that you would expect in preparations found in fine dining. I think it went under a few years ago, sadly, but maybe its owners are doing something new now.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:56 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
ennui.bz: Does anyone know how these sorts of ventures get business loans? Is it just that the owners have enough collateral that it's not a hard decision or is there some other calculation at work here?
Riding a hobbyhorse here, i'll fully acknowledge. But at least 'round these parts they're almost all vanity businesses of insufferable assholes who made their money elsewhere, never grew up, and want to play pretend at being their "own boss".
The reason i'm bitter is that it's maybe a 1/10 chance that they wont treat their employees like shit, and play them off eachother like a grade school clique while totally underpaying them.
Loans usually aren't involved, from what i've seen. It's almost always people who just ~mysteriously~ have the fucktons of money to drop on opening a place like this full of expensive fixtures, staffed by experienced people, and stocked with expensive ingredients.
posted by emptythought at 3:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Riding a hobbyhorse here, i'll fully acknowledge. But at least 'round these parts they're almost all vanity businesses of insufferable assholes who made their money elsewhere, never grew up, and want to play pretend at being their "own boss".
The reason i'm bitter is that it's maybe a 1/10 chance that they wont treat their employees like shit, and play them off eachother like a grade school clique while totally underpaying them.
Loans usually aren't involved, from what i've seen. It's almost always people who just ~mysteriously~ have the fucktons of money to drop on opening a place like this full of expensive fixtures, staffed by experienced people, and stocked with expensive ingredients.
posted by emptythought at 3:57 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I got your "Nut Milk" right here.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 4:11 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 4:11 PM on December 1, 2014
Somebody had to say it.
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 4:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Trinity-Gehenna at 4:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hipster Business Name Generator is great.
It's pretty good, but it's not a great hipster business name unless you have both "&" and "the" in the name. E.g. as one random example, I just got "Laywer & Frog" which is pretty good, but "Lawyer & the Frog" would have been better.
posted by effbot at 4:13 PM on December 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
It's pretty good, but it's not a great hipster business name unless you have both "&" and "the" in the name. E.g. as one random example, I just got "Laywer & Frog" which is pretty good, but "Lawyer & the Frog" would have been better.
posted by effbot at 4:13 PM on December 1, 2014 [5 favorites]
Didn't the FPP establish it's "+" not "&" now?
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:23 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:23 PM on December 1, 2014
Maybe I am behind the times, but I thought omitting the articles made it more hipstery, like Bourbon & Branch or Pig & Pie or Hog & Rocks.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:38 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by en forme de poire at 4:38 PM on December 1, 2014
The Pig & Pie
Pig & Pie
Pig + Pie
Pig+Pie
Pig/Pie
Pig\Pie
P\P
P
okay I just hit the hipster gastropub name event horizon
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:43 PM on December 1, 2014 [12 favorites]
Pig & Pie
Pig + Pie
Pig+Pie
Pig/Pie
Pig\Pie
P\P
P
okay I just hit the hipster gastropub name event horizon
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:43 PM on December 1, 2014 [12 favorites]
I not only eat kale salads (with radish, yum!) I grow my own kale. Which is how I learned that "curly kale" is far better for salads than "dinosaur kale". The former is a prettier plant too, almost decorative, whereas the latter tends to turn into a gangly monstrosity.
posted by telstar at 4:53 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by telstar at 4:53 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
The company I work for does a catered lunch twice a week. There's a company culture of ecological awareness, and they try to find caterers who are organic and sustainable, and they make sure that there's always a vegan option.
I swear that 2/3 of the time, the vegan option includes a raw kale salad. Sometimes said salad is nothing more than a giant bowl of indifferently washed kale with a couple of slivered almonds tossed over it.
I like kale! I prefer it in soups to raw, but I will willingly eat it in well-made salad. I eat vegan part-time to help with my cholesterol, and I like well-prepared vegan meals.
But somewhere along the line, the giant haphazard bowl of kale became a shibboleth for vegetarian/vegan restaurants.
posted by murphy slaw at 4:53 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
I swear that 2/3 of the time, the vegan option includes a raw kale salad. Sometimes said salad is nothing more than a giant bowl of indifferently washed kale with a couple of slivered almonds tossed over it.
I like kale! I prefer it in soups to raw, but I will willingly eat it in well-made salad. I eat vegan part-time to help with my cholesterol, and I like well-prepared vegan meals.
But somewhere along the line, the giant haphazard bowl of kale became a shibboleth for vegetarian/vegan restaurants.
posted by murphy slaw at 4:53 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Pig & Pie
Pig & Pie
Pig + Pie
Pig+Pie
Pig/Pie
Pig\Pie
P\P
P
okay I just hit the hipster gastropub name event horizon
We're rebranding, and will now by known as a small jpeg of the 1969 Pier Paolo Pasolini film Porcile, which must be spelled out in all visual media, never showing the actual image, and is pronounced [insert sound of the raw jpeg data converted into a wav file]
posted by jason_steakums at 5:28 PM on December 1, 2014 [14 favorites]
Pig & Pie
Pig + Pie
Pig+Pie
Pig/Pie
Pig\Pie
P\P
P
okay I just hit the hipster gastropub name event horizon
We're rebranding, and will now by known as a small jpeg of the 1969 Pier Paolo Pasolini film Porcile, which must be spelled out in all visual media, never showing the actual image, and is pronounced [insert sound of the raw jpeg data converted into a wav file]
posted by jason_steakums at 5:28 PM on December 1, 2014 [14 favorites]
"Dreamwheel + The Child"
posted by The Whelk at 5:41 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 5:41 PM on December 1, 2014 [4 favorites]
Whats problematic is not that someone is selling fermented (sour cherry+black tea+raw honey) .... but that they are claiming that it works as digestion aid, immune support and detoxifying.
Hey, go crazy: use randomly chosen ingredients and blend everything together but have some scientific backing for your claims of detoxification and immune support.
Be a hipster all you like but please don't be pseudo-scientific ...
posted by TheLittlePrince at 5:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Hey, go crazy: use randomly chosen ingredients and blend everything together but have some scientific backing for your claims of detoxification and immune support.
Be a hipster all you like but please don't be pseudo-scientific ...
posted by TheLittlePrince at 5:42 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Whole Foods and Sweet Green here in DC have started selling these $10 juice drink things, because what you really need with your overpriced $13 single serve salad that you could make a week's worth at home for roughly the same cost is another $10 on top for 8oz of juice.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Shifting to a totally different topic now, Zagat just rated a vegan restaurant #1 overall in Philly. Can't wait to go sometime.
Last time I was in SF, my coworkers and I went to Millenium at the suggestion of our vegan boss. As an avowed meat eater I was deeply skeptical, but lo and behold that dinner was one of the best meals I've had in a long time (plus they had Pliny the Elder on the beer list, which as an east coaster was a pretty neat surprise).
posted by Itaxpica at 6:53 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
Last time I was in SF, my coworkers and I went to Millenium at the suggestion of our vegan boss. As an avowed meat eater I was deeply skeptical, but lo and behold that dinner was one of the best meals I've had in a long time (plus they had Pliny the Elder on the beer list, which as an east coaster was a pretty neat surprise).
posted by Itaxpica at 6:53 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
I liked this bit from the Chicago Reader link:
posted by foobaz at 7:17 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
People call you a hipster, but that's not true. These new people, they're the real hipsters, colonizing and commercializing everything that made the neighborhood so great, transforming it from bohemia to brohemia."Brohemia" is such a great word and I can't wait to use it in conversation.
posted by foobaz at 7:17 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Right- if you want real Bohemia in Chicago, you'll have to go down to Pilsen.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:31 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:31 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
As is the case in above comments, I would say that I may be inclined to try a juice like this if they did away with all those pseudo-scientific claims. Those sorts of assertions do nothing but spread the misunderstood notion of '~*TOXINS*~' and the apparent necessity of putting yourself through a 5-week lemon detox after being exposed to, dare I say, chemtrails.
posted by moon_space at 7:33 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by moon_space at 7:33 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I walked by here today and noticed it quite empty. My friends and I joked that at least it's next to a new distillery and wondered what percentage of patrons would stop at both. Despite the fact that I will never pay that much for juice, I do appreciate the beautiful window display. New tenants moved onto my quiet street this summer and proceeded to play bags on the sidewalk. Sadly, brohemia is already here in Logan Square.
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:57 PM on December 1, 2014
posted by Bunglegirl at 7:57 PM on December 1, 2014
Juice is good, raw foods are good, and stores like this can be an antidote to the vast majority of food places which emphasize meat and/or dairy. I think people get offended mainly because of the prices and the pretension.
That said, if an artisanal pork-only spot launched in the same place, perhaps an homage to some famous European place like El Museo de Jamon, with equally ridiculous pricing (per ounce), it would be lauded and marveled over. Even when the coverage would mock the obsession, the menu descriptions, the attention to detail, etc. , it would also fawn.
This despite the fact that the pork industry, even at its best, creates suffering, environmental destruction, and poor health.
posted by cell divide at 8:09 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
That said, if an artisanal pork-only spot launched in the same place, perhaps an homage to some famous European place like El Museo de Jamon, with equally ridiculous pricing (per ounce), it would be lauded and marveled over. Even when the coverage would mock the obsession, the menu descriptions, the attention to detail, etc. , it would also fawn.
This despite the fact that the pork industry, even at its best, creates suffering, environmental destruction, and poor health.
posted by cell divide at 8:09 PM on December 1, 2014 [3 favorites]
My ancestors were mutants, so I can digest cow's milk - whereas all things almond give me a terrible stomachache.
I miss the marzipan.
posted by jb at 8:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
I miss the marzipan.
posted by jb at 8:11 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
That said, if an artisanal pork-only spot launched in the same place, perhaps an homage to some famous European place like El Museo de Jamon, with equally ridiculous pricing (per ounce), it would be lauded and marveled over.
That said, the place probably wouldn't claim that their salami was good for immune support and detoxification.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:28 PM on December 1, 2014 [9 favorites]
That said, the place probably wouldn't claim that their salami was good for immune support and detoxification.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:28 PM on December 1, 2014 [9 favorites]
Oh, hey, I know almost nothing about Chicago, but I heard about Owen + Alchemy just last week via Medium recommending "In the Game of Chicago, you drink or you die," which was kind of fun. Apparently, Owen + Alchemy would be the hangout for the Maesters of the Citadel?
posted by Monsieur Caution at 8:44 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Monsieur Caution at 8:44 PM on December 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
Breakfast, sauteed garlic and onions, spinach, steamed, quartered brussels sprouts, 1/4 cup cubed tofu, soba noodles, home raised broth, with one egg poached on top. Washed down with black tea. The whole meal maybe five bucks tops. Kale is nasty, but nice to look at. (Someone had to say it.) I ran a vegetarian place in the early seventies. I grew tired of parents who were strict vegans witb their kids, but wh indulged in cheese themselves, and complained about mucous the day after. Eat yer sprouts Rainbow!
Oooh but waiting in my cupboard, for the right moment is a carton of Hazelnut Milk I ran across!
posted by Oyéah at 8:51 PM on December 1, 2014
Oooh but waiting in my cupboard, for the right moment is a carton of Hazelnut Milk I ran across!
posted by Oyéah at 8:51 PM on December 1, 2014
This sort of thing makes me think about the annoyance I feel when I'm trying to find recipes for things like sauerkraut/kimchi and all the recipes have some sort of crackpot magic powers attributed to fermented cabbage.
Look I just want to make a bunch of tasty cheap food, not read your mysticism over leafy vegetables and bacteria.
posted by Ferreous at 9:49 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Look I just want to make a bunch of tasty cheap food, not read your mysticism over leafy vegetables and bacteria.
posted by Ferreous at 9:49 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
It used to have a high-profile restaurant called Horizons that made (to the tastebuds of this omnivore) creative vegan food that you would expect in preparations found in fine dining. I think it went under a few years ago, sadly, but maybe its owners are doing something new now.
Amusingly, Vedge is what Horizons became. Horizons was fantastic: a meat-loving friend was amusingly opposed to it and then ended up scraping up the last of the sauce from my seitan. I'm not even vegan and I would welcome the chance to try out Vedge. Charlie was a sinner has been getting the latest vegan buzz in Philly though and I hear it's wonderful. Philly's vegan/vegetarian options are substantially better than those in many large cities. Though I don't think it's just the proximity to NYC (why is that always the answer for anything on the east coast), I think it's the low rents, increasing population of wealthier young folks, and the strong heritage of different local and immigrant cuisines coupled with great local produce (mushrooms!) and other locally made products (cheese! beer!).
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:35 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Amusingly, Vedge is what Horizons became. Horizons was fantastic: a meat-loving friend was amusingly opposed to it and then ended up scraping up the last of the sauce from my seitan. I'm not even vegan and I would welcome the chance to try out Vedge. Charlie was a sinner has been getting the latest vegan buzz in Philly though and I hear it's wonderful. Philly's vegan/vegetarian options are substantially better than those in many large cities. Though I don't think it's just the proximity to NYC (why is that always the answer for anything on the east coast), I think it's the low rents, increasing population of wealthier young folks, and the strong heritage of different local and immigrant cuisines coupled with great local produce (mushrooms!) and other locally made products (cheese! beer!).
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:35 PM on December 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Maybe I am behind the times
Or maybe ahead of times. That's the problem with hipster stuff, you never know if you're ahead or behind, and if you try to be more hipster than others, you end up doing the same thing as everyone else.
posted by effbot at 12:56 AM on December 2, 2014
Or maybe ahead of times. That's the problem with hipster stuff, you never know if you're ahead or behind, and if you try to be more hipster than others, you end up doing the same thing as everyone else.
posted by effbot at 12:56 AM on December 2, 2014
TheLittlePrince: Hey, go crazy: use randomly chosen ingredients and blend everything together but have some scientific backing for your claims of detoxification and immune support.
Be a hipster all you like but please don't be pseudo-scientific ...
moon_space: As is the case in above comments, I would say that I may be inclined to try a juice like this if they did away with all those pseudo-scientific claims. Those sorts of assertions do nothing but spread the misunderstood notion of '~*TOXINS*~' and the apparent necessity of putting yourself through a 5-week lemon detox after being exposed to, dare I say, chemtrails.
I've been watching with a sort of morbid fascination as the "foodie" or "hipster"*, or whatever you want to call it, scenes/groups seem to be just effortlessly absorbing HARDCORE woo.
Like, i grew up homeschooled among weird middle class crunchy granola hippies of the overpriced babywearing apparatus, rain barrel system, turn your yard into a vegetable garden socks with sandals variety. Then i moved in to an area completely packed with "hipsters" at the time. It was always interesting watching the people i knew growing up who went hard and fast down the crystal-energy-and-woo path, and watching a whole separate group of people fall into the portlandia black hole.
And now the two groups are like... converging... and i don't even know what to think. I mean, good for you on caring about what you're putting in to your body, but this is pretty far into the chemtrail zone. I bet if you let them talk a little longer they'd starting getting into how they don't own a microwave, and microwaves are like terrible for you because huge-list-of-super-wooey-reasons.
I keep doing doubletakes at what i see certain people posting on social media. Like, i know a bunch of people who i know will always be farting out links to stuff about like, various cleanses and planet alignment stuff and whatever... and then i see the seemingly hipster-y people posting stuff about things like these weird "healing" juices and i can't do anything but pop a spock eyebrow.
Apparently hipsters grow up to be antivaxers, is what i'm saying. I should have realized this was the case when portland rejected water fluoridation after a successful ultra-wooey campaign.
*two terms that are becoming more and more surreal and meaningless as time goes on at an exponential rate
posted by emptythought at 3:38 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
Be a hipster all you like but please don't be pseudo-scientific ...
moon_space: As is the case in above comments, I would say that I may be inclined to try a juice like this if they did away with all those pseudo-scientific claims. Those sorts of assertions do nothing but spread the misunderstood notion of '~*TOXINS*~' and the apparent necessity of putting yourself through a 5-week lemon detox after being exposed to, dare I say, chemtrails.
I've been watching with a sort of morbid fascination as the "foodie" or "hipster"*, or whatever you want to call it, scenes/groups seem to be just effortlessly absorbing HARDCORE woo.
Like, i grew up homeschooled among weird middle class crunchy granola hippies of the overpriced babywearing apparatus, rain barrel system, turn your yard into a vegetable garden socks with sandals variety. Then i moved in to an area completely packed with "hipsters" at the time. It was always interesting watching the people i knew growing up who went hard and fast down the crystal-energy-and-woo path, and watching a whole separate group of people fall into the portlandia black hole.
And now the two groups are like... converging... and i don't even know what to think. I mean, good for you on caring about what you're putting in to your body, but this is pretty far into the chemtrail zone. I bet if you let them talk a little longer they'd starting getting into how they don't own a microwave, and microwaves are like terrible for you because huge-list-of-super-wooey-reasons.
I keep doing doubletakes at what i see certain people posting on social media. Like, i know a bunch of people who i know will always be farting out links to stuff about like, various cleanses and planet alignment stuff and whatever... and then i see the seemingly hipster-y people posting stuff about things like these weird "healing" juices and i can't do anything but pop a spock eyebrow.
Apparently hipsters grow up to be antivaxers, is what i'm saying. I should have realized this was the case when portland rejected water fluoridation after a successful ultra-wooey campaign.
*two terms that are becoming more and more surreal and meaningless as time goes on at an exponential rate
posted by emptythought at 3:38 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
As is the case in above comments, I would say that I may be inclined to try a juice like this if they did away with all those pseudo-scientific claims.
Er, this may be a dumb question, but why can't you try a juice like this anyway, even if the people selling it to you think it aligns your chakras or whatever? Just smile and nod while the owners are telling you about the health benefits and think to yourself, "whatever, it just sounded tasty" and drink it for that.
I mean, I'm aware of the enivronmental/societal/economic/whatever claims people are making about the benefits of being a locavore, but none of those have anything to do with why I belong to a CSA - I signed up for a CSA because "whatever, carrots that they only picked yesterday taste way better. When you buy something from someone, their mindset doesn't automatically download itself into your brain. All they're getting is your money - you can get it for whatever reason you want.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Er, this may be a dumb question, but why can't you try a juice like this anyway, even if the people selling it to you think it aligns your chakras or whatever? Just smile and nod while the owners are telling you about the health benefits and think to yourself, "whatever, it just sounded tasty" and drink it for that.
I mean, I'm aware of the enivronmental/societal/economic/whatever claims people are making about the benefits of being a locavore, but none of those have anything to do with why I belong to a CSA - I signed up for a CSA because "whatever, carrots that they only picked yesterday taste way better. When you buy something from someone, their mindset doesn't automatically download itself into your brain. All they're getting is your money - you can get it for whatever reason you want.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
...this may be a dumb question, but why can't you try a juice like this anyway, even if the people selling it to you think it aligns your chakras or whatever?
Speaking for myself, having to put up with the woo just to try something novel is a major inhibiting factor.
There's also the fact that if the woo is still there, you're tacitly endorsing it by giving them money. Some of us don't like to do that.
posted by lodurr at 5:51 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Speaking for myself, having to put up with the woo just to try something novel is a major inhibiting factor.
There's also the fact that if the woo is still there, you're tacitly endorsing it by giving them money. Some of us don't like to do that.
posted by lodurr at 5:51 AM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
And 'endorsing the woo' is at least quantitatively* different w.r.t. a CSA and an ideologically front-and-center restaurant.
--
*and of course quantity has a quality all its own...I've given up trying to figure out who to cite on that, though.
posted by lodurr at 5:56 AM on December 2, 2014
--
*and of course quantity has a quality all its own...I've given up trying to figure out who to cite on that, though.
posted by lodurr at 5:56 AM on December 2, 2014
Er, this may be a dumb question, but why can't you try a juice like this anyway, even if the people selling it to you think it aligns your chakras or whatever?
Because people who think juice aligns your chakras are either idiots or scammers. The first group will only make good juice by accident, the second one only if it helps with their scam. Not that you can't try it out and find it to your liking, but I'd rather give my money to someone actually trying to make a good product.
posted by Dr Dracator at 6:08 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Because people who think juice aligns your chakras are either idiots or scammers. The first group will only make good juice by accident, the second one only if it helps with their scam. Not that you can't try it out and find it to your liking, but I'd rather give my money to someone actually trying to make a good product.
posted by Dr Dracator at 6:08 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Speaking for myself, having to put up with the woo just to try something novel is a major inhibiting factor. There's also the fact that if the woo is still there, you're tacitly endorsing it by giving them money. Some of us don't like to do that.
* shrug * Fair enough; I personally don't think my sole ten dollars represents enough of an endorsement so as to Permanently Enshrine The Science In The Pantheon, so if I were that curious about tasting juice I'd give it a whirl.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:12 AM on December 2, 2014
* shrug * Fair enough; I personally don't think my sole ten dollars represents enough of an endorsement so as to Permanently Enshrine The Science In The Pantheon, so if I were that curious about tasting juice I'd give it a whirl.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:12 AM on December 2, 2014
That's basically the 'my vote doesn't count' argument. Society as a realization of collective action only works if we all actually act according to what we want to happen.
posted by lodurr at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by lodurr at 7:29 AM on December 2, 2014
That's basically the 'my vote doesn't count' argument. Society as a realization of collective action only works if we all actually act according to what we want to happen.
...How do principles taste? Maybe not as good as carrot juice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
...How do principles taste? Maybe not as good as carrot juice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
but I guess you'll never know
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:13 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Pretty sure principles taste better than ten-dollar carrot juice sold in an atmosphere of superiority and food panic.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 8:17 AM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
Pretty sure principles taste better than ten-dollar carrot juice sold in an atmosphere of superiority and food panic.
I wouldn't know, I ignore all that and just get the juice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't know, I ignore all that and just get the juice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
EmpressCallipygos: " Maybe not as good as carrot juice."
dont be so sure ... given that they dont sell pure carrot juice ... they sell carrot juice seasoned with ginger and blended with anything else that is within arms reach.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2014
dont be so sure ... given that they dont sell pure carrot juice ... they sell carrot juice seasoned with ginger and blended with anything else that is within arms reach.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:53 AM on December 2, 2014
Actually, carrot and ginger is delicious. Hell, I'm having that very thing as a soup for lunch today!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
The thing that really sticks in my craw is that these spendy potion peddlers are positioning themselves as somehow significantly materially better than, like, the Jamba Juice down at the local strip mall. Smoothie shops aside, I can get a bottle of fresh-squeezed organic carrot juice at the grocery store for $3-5 all in, and if I'm feeling fancy, I can drop a dollop of minced ginger in there for maaaaybe another buck, et voila. But here these folks are charging $9 a cup [PDF] for freaking tomato juice. Ingredients: tomatoes, salt. For real.
Pro-tip: If an American restaurateur ever earnestly uses the term 'organic' to describe the salt they use, roll your eyes and bail. A) There is no such thing as USDA organic certification for salt because it's not an agricultural product, therefore B) the menu is only using the word 'organic' to try to extract a few more bucks from your wallet.
What I can't get at the grocery store is the sense of inherent moral superiority that tends to invigorate the kind of folks who are prone to buying into vague promises of 'detoxification,' 'cleansing,' and/or woo-woo energy alignment. That's what theseartisanal nut milk bars "plant apothecaries" are serving up for a dozen bucks a pop, that and the atmosphere are most of what you're paying for. Otherwise you could just go to Jamba Juice, where you'll pay half the price for the same damn thing without the claims that their products will align your chakras or otherwise legitimately cure what ails you. This is verbatim from a page on Owen + Alchemy's website, 'About Our Cleanses':
Like OK, sure, fresh fruit and vegetable juices taste good and are generally pretty good for you, that's basically a given in 2014. But couching "fresh fruit and vegetable juices taste good and are generally pretty good for you" in handwavey language designed to make you feel inadequate and dirty inside isn't just irresponsible, it's dangerous.
posted by divined by radio at 9:05 AM on December 2, 2014 [12 favorites]
Pro-tip: If an American restaurateur ever earnestly uses the term 'organic' to describe the salt they use, roll your eyes and bail. A) There is no such thing as USDA organic certification for salt because it's not an agricultural product, therefore B) the menu is only using the word 'organic' to try to extract a few more bucks from your wallet.
What I can't get at the grocery store is the sense of inherent moral superiority that tends to invigorate the kind of folks who are prone to buying into vague promises of 'detoxification,' 'cleansing,' and/or woo-woo energy alignment. That's what these
A juice cleanse enhances the natural absorption of nutrients in the body, helping to eliminate toxins from environmental pollutants, processed foods, and built-up stress. Once solid foods are eliminated from the system, the body is able to refocus its energy on the brain, skin, and liver, instead of primarily on the stomach. A cleanse is a restart, a natural remedy for when the mind and body have begun to drain.Look at how vague their wording is, so vague as to be utterly meaningless. Who isn't anxious, low-energy, or prone to struggling with insomnia at some point or another? Are we all poisoned by toxins? I feel all of those things and I've been eating an incredibly healthy, low-fat, low-sugar, high-vegetable vegan diet for over 10 years, nearly a third of my life. But using the O+A guidelines, well, it kind of seems like I might be due for a cleanse anyway! (Lucky for me, they offer subscription plans starting at only $90/month!) I'm a firm believer that businesses and individuals who traffic in this kind of nonsense are morally questionable at absolute best, and in my feistiest moments, I will unapologetically go to the mat defending my belief that "soy/wheat/gluten/dairy/toxin/FODMAP-free!" advertisements are supplanting and inculcating honest-to-god orthorexia.
Natural signs that indicate the body’s desire for restoration are a weakened immune system, increased allergies, low energy, anxiousness, skin irritation, or difficulty sleeping.
Like OK, sure, fresh fruit and vegetable juices taste good and are generally pretty good for you, that's basically a given in 2014. But couching "fresh fruit and vegetable juices taste good and are generally pretty good for you" in handwavey language designed to make you feel inadequate and dirty inside isn't just irresponsible, it's dangerous.
posted by divined by radio at 9:05 AM on December 2, 2014 [12 favorites]
I hate the woo as much as anyone, but I'll always make an exception for Source in San Francisco. That place is the bomb. Probably the best vegan food I've ever had. Not too expensive, either.
posted by archagon at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by archagon at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2014
"Cold-pressed" is a term of art for oil extraction. It has no meaning when applied to vegetable or fruit juices, which are never heated to improve yield.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 9:22 AM on December 2, 2014 [8 favorites]
Just like how rooibos "tea" and chamomile "tea" aren't actually teas, they're infusions.
For a pedant, you don't care much about balancing your tags.
posted by Dr Dracator at 9:25 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
For a pedant, you don't care much about balancing your tags.
posted by Dr Dracator at 9:25 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
EmpressCallipygos: but I guess you'll never know
Why wouldn't I, when I can just go buy some carrot juice and drink it?
Oh, you meant their carrot juice. Well, why would I need to know?
Seriously, can we drop all this excluded-middle "you're either a stuck-up principle obsessed prig or you're buying into the woo" stuff? If you don't mind buying the stuff, fine, go buy it. To me, it's a huge waste of money that feels super-icky in the bargain, so I see no point in doing it. I don't need to be judged for that, and I'm not judging anyone else for buying the juice.
posted by lodurr at 10:04 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Why wouldn't I, when I can just go buy some carrot juice and drink it?
Oh, you meant their carrot juice. Well, why would I need to know?
Seriously, can we drop all this excluded-middle "you're either a stuck-up principle obsessed prig or you're buying into the woo" stuff? If you don't mind buying the stuff, fine, go buy it. To me, it's a huge waste of money that feels super-icky in the bargain, so I see no point in doing it. I don't need to be judged for that, and I'm not judging anyone else for buying the juice.
posted by lodurr at 10:04 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, but is it cold-pressed like Owen + Alchemy's? Not that I can tell a difference, honestly, between cold-pressed and... not-cold-pressed.
I saw a bottle of cold press apple juice at the convenience store yesterday. I wouldn't have ever noticed it if it weren't for this thread. It's the kind of convenience store that sells macrobiotic vegan sesame noodle bowls for $9, just to clarify.
16 ounces of cold pressed juice - $3.99
posted by Juliet Banana at 10:06 AM on December 2, 2014
I saw a bottle of cold press apple juice at the convenience store yesterday. I wouldn't have ever noticed it if it weren't for this thread. It's the kind of convenience store that sells macrobiotic vegan sesame noodle bowls for $9, just to clarify.
16 ounces of cold pressed juice - $3.99
posted by Juliet Banana at 10:06 AM on December 2, 2014
I love juice, don't buy into any of the woo, but I do think that getting in those veggies keeps me healthier and feeling better. I like starting the day with those beet/lemon/ginger type of juices.
"Cold-pressed" is a term of art for oil extraction. It has no meaning when applied to vegetable or fruit juices, which are never heated to improve yield.
I think that your typical grocery store juices are made using Centrifugal Juicers rather than Masticating Juicers, which does produce additional heat, and also results in a less consistent end product.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 10:07 AM on December 2, 2014
"Cold-pressed" is a term of art for oil extraction. It has no meaning when applied to vegetable or fruit juices, which are never heated to improve yield.
I think that your typical grocery store juices are made using Centrifugal Juicers rather than Masticating Juicers, which does produce additional heat, and also results in a less consistent end product.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 10:07 AM on December 2, 2014
Centrifugal juicers make more heat than masticating juicers? that's the opposite of what I would have expected.
posted by lodurr at 10:08 AM on December 2, 2014
posted by lodurr at 10:08 AM on December 2, 2014
I suspect what they mean by "cold-pressed" is "unpasteurized", but that doesn't sell as well as invoking the golden purity of extra-virgin olive oil around your cider.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:15 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by murphy slaw at 10:15 AM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just like how rooibos "tea" and chamomile "tea" aren't actually teas, they're infusions.
Actually, qcubed, "tea" is almost universally understood to refer to the beverage resulting from the hot water infusion of a wide variety of herbs, leaves, and other plant matter, and has been so understood for literally hundreds of years.
From the Oxford English Dictionary entry on "tea"(nb: "The definitive record of the English language"):
5. Used as a general name for infusions made in the same way as tea (sense 2), usually from the leaves, blossoms, or other parts of plants; mostly used medicinally, sometimes as ordinary drinks. Commonly with defining words, as alehoof, balm, beef, camomile, camphor, coffee, cowslip, hartshorn, laurel, lemon, lemon-grass, poppy, rosemary, sage, saloop, sassafras, senna, tilleul, valerian, willow tea: see these words. So humorously limestone tea (quot. 1723).
posted by clockzero at 11:36 AM on December 2, 2014
Actually, qcubed, "tea" is almost universally understood to refer to the beverage resulting from the hot water infusion of a wide variety of herbs, leaves, and other plant matter, and has been so understood for literally hundreds of years.
From the Oxford English Dictionary entry on "tea"(nb: "The definitive record of the English language"):
5. Used as a general name for infusions made in the same way as tea (sense 2), usually from the leaves, blossoms, or other parts of plants; mostly used medicinally, sometimes as ordinary drinks. Commonly with defining words, as alehoof, balm, beef, camomile, camphor, coffee, cowslip, hartshorn, laurel, lemon, lemon-grass, poppy, rosemary, sage, saloop, sassafras, senna, tilleul, valerian, willow tea: see these words. So humorously limestone tea (quot. 1723).
posted by clockzero at 11:36 AM on December 2, 2014
For that matter,
"Butter: ...
2 ... b: a creamy food spread; especially: one made of ground roasted nuts".
posted by kyrademon at 11:39 AM on December 2, 2014
"Butter: ...
2 ... b: a creamy food spread; especially: one made of ground roasted nuts".
posted by kyrademon at 11:39 AM on December 2, 2014
Lodurr: I'll apologize for my tone, which you're right, wasn't fair.
But a point of order:
If you don't mind buying the stuff, fine, go buy it. To me, it's a huge waste of money that feels super-icky in the bargain, so I see no point in doing it.
I was responding more to when you said that you were curious about how it tasted, but the woo was what was keeping you from satisfying that curiosity. That was the bit that didn't make sense to me, because for me, a one-time purchase to satisfy that curiosity is a more than justifiable tradeoff.
I mean, I think the woo is ridiculous too, but if a set of flavors sound intriguing enough, I'd buy it the once so I could figure out how to hack it at home, even if the guy trying to sell it to me told me it could make me fly or something. It just sounded like you were really curious to explore it from an aesthetic standpoint and were all "gosh darn it, if only it weren't jerks who were selling it," and it just seemed unfortunate that curiosity was being squelched.
But you're right that I got snarky and that wasn't cool.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM on December 2, 2014
But a point of order:
If you don't mind buying the stuff, fine, go buy it. To me, it's a huge waste of money that feels super-icky in the bargain, so I see no point in doing it.
I was responding more to when you said that you were curious about how it tasted, but the woo was what was keeping you from satisfying that curiosity. That was the bit that didn't make sense to me, because for me, a one-time purchase to satisfy that curiosity is a more than justifiable tradeoff.
I mean, I think the woo is ridiculous too, but if a set of flavors sound intriguing enough, I'd buy it the once so I could figure out how to hack it at home, even if the guy trying to sell it to me told me it could make me fly or something. It just sounded like you were really curious to explore it from an aesthetic standpoint and were all "gosh darn it, if only it weren't jerks who were selling it," and it just seemed unfortunate that curiosity was being squelched.
But you're right that I got snarky and that wasn't cool.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM on December 2, 2014
I really like my vegetable juices, and my ambition is to eat vegetarian food five out of seven days (Sometimes it is not practical at work) BUT: maybe we are human because we cook. I often wonder why vegan and vegetarian food need to be so unappealing and indigestible. In most cultures, before industrialization of food, meat was expensive, and the main part of food was vegetables and grains. So we have tens of thousands of great vegetarian dishes, including raw salads if one is so inclined. And still, people suddenly find it a good idea to eat raw kale, which was never a good idea.
I have close friends and family who eat raw kale and drink really strange juices. I hope they enjoy it. But I suspect raw kale and other strange vegan/vegetarian concepts are part of a tradition of seeing food as a moral challenge. Back when most people where near-vegetarian out of necessity, there were no Kelloggs or Steiners. Now, there are dishes and recipes which all seem to be about denial and lament. Recently, some vegans complained that our local COOP didn't have "vegan products", something I found really strange, since the store is stacked to the rim with fresh produce, great biodynamic grains and legumes etc. I feel really lucky to have this store near me, since I hardly have to think in order to get good and fair-priced food for my family.
Well, the "vegan products" arrived, and they are faux beef, faux sausage, faux milk, faux just about everything. Why? because a lot of those vegans are meat eaters who are vegans out of some weird, quasi religious conviction, rather than just eating good food, that is also good for them. They are whipping themselvs, foodwise.
Why eat a "tofu-beef", when you can have a vegetarian cous-cous? Or a sandwich with "vegan sausage", when you can have a hummus sandwich, or a sandwich with tomato, grilled aubergine and lettuce? Why eat anything at all with quorn, when you can have a classic soup with pasta and legumes, or a dal, or a minestrone or thousands of other healthy, great-tasting vegetarian dishes.
My aunt and uncle lived a macrobiotic diet for a year, after my uncle contracted a liver-disease. It was a bit wooish, but it was food, cooked to taste as food. No ersatz and no raw kale. I liked eating at their house.
OK, I see this seems a little like kale-hating, but for me, the kale is an example of something larger, and even less sensible. I encourage everyone who really likes raw kale to just keep going (as if they'd ever listen to my advice).
posted by mumimor at 12:13 PM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
I have close friends and family who eat raw kale and drink really strange juices. I hope they enjoy it. But I suspect raw kale and other strange vegan/vegetarian concepts are part of a tradition of seeing food as a moral challenge. Back when most people where near-vegetarian out of necessity, there were no Kelloggs or Steiners. Now, there are dishes and recipes which all seem to be about denial and lament. Recently, some vegans complained that our local COOP didn't have "vegan products", something I found really strange, since the store is stacked to the rim with fresh produce, great biodynamic grains and legumes etc. I feel really lucky to have this store near me, since I hardly have to think in order to get good and fair-priced food for my family.
Well, the "vegan products" arrived, and they are faux beef, faux sausage, faux milk, faux just about everything. Why? because a lot of those vegans are meat eaters who are vegans out of some weird, quasi religious conviction, rather than just eating good food, that is also good for them. They are whipping themselvs, foodwise.
Why eat a "tofu-beef", when you can have a vegetarian cous-cous? Or a sandwich with "vegan sausage", when you can have a hummus sandwich, or a sandwich with tomato, grilled aubergine and lettuce? Why eat anything at all with quorn, when you can have a classic soup with pasta and legumes, or a dal, or a minestrone or thousands of other healthy, great-tasting vegetarian dishes.
My aunt and uncle lived a macrobiotic diet for a year, after my uncle contracted a liver-disease. It was a bit wooish, but it was food, cooked to taste as food. No ersatz and no raw kale. I liked eating at their house.
OK, I see this seems a little like kale-hating, but for me, the kale is an example of something larger, and even less sensible. I encourage everyone who really likes raw kale to just keep going (as if they'd ever listen to my advice).
posted by mumimor at 12:13 PM on December 2, 2014 [4 favorites]
Why eat a "tofu-beef", when you can have a vegetarian cous-cous? Or a sandwich with "vegan sausage", when you can have a hummus sandwich, or a sandwich with tomato, grilled aubergine and lettuce? Why eat anything at all with quorn, when you can have a classic soup with pasta and legumes, or a dal, or a minestrone or thousands of other healthy, great-tasting vegetarian dishes.
"Why eat anything with a high protein content relative to its starches" seems to be what you're asking. Gee, I dunno, why wouldn't I like a lunch that has almost no protein?
I am not entirely enthusiastic about the fake meat objections and the usual ensuing rush to assure the Big Other that we are Not That Type Of Vegan, we don't eat Field Roast or tofurky sausages pan fried and finished with a splash of white wine or anything, we never enjoy a grilled "cheese" sandwich, etc. You know what? Not only do I love tofu and tempeh, but I also really like that Field Roast celebration roast sliced thin on sandwiches, and I like veggie burgers of all stripes, and I love a fake grilled cheese. And those imported fake chicken things that are shaped sort of like a blob version of a half chicken, the ones imported from China? And I actually had some water chestnut based "fish" pieces for hot pot a while ago, and if you had marketed them as "water chestnut dumplings" you'd sell a gazillion of them to hipsters because they were delicious.
(A side note: just because you tried a Green Giant veggie burger at your family's picnic once and it was gross does not mean that all "fake meats" are gross.)
posted by Frowner at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2014 [9 favorites]
"Why eat anything with a high protein content relative to its starches" seems to be what you're asking. Gee, I dunno, why wouldn't I like a lunch that has almost no protein?
I am not entirely enthusiastic about the fake meat objections and the usual ensuing rush to assure the Big Other that we are Not That Type Of Vegan, we don't eat Field Roast or tofurky sausages pan fried and finished with a splash of white wine or anything, we never enjoy a grilled "cheese" sandwich, etc. You know what? Not only do I love tofu and tempeh, but I also really like that Field Roast celebration roast sliced thin on sandwiches, and I like veggie burgers of all stripes, and I love a fake grilled cheese. And those imported fake chicken things that are shaped sort of like a blob version of a half chicken, the ones imported from China? And I actually had some water chestnut based "fish" pieces for hot pot a while ago, and if you had marketed them as "water chestnut dumplings" you'd sell a gazillion of them to hipsters because they were delicious.
(A side note: just because you tried a Green Giant veggie burger at your family's picnic once and it was gross does not mean that all "fake meats" are gross.)
posted by Frowner at 12:56 PM on December 2, 2014 [9 favorites]
Well, the "vegan products" arrived, and they are faux beef, faux sausage, faux milk, faux just about everything.
And so many of these products are bad. I was fooled by reading some vegan discussion boards into trying out Daiya vegan cheese (board topic: New vegan cheeses that will make you never miss dairy cheese again!)
It was as if someone had tried to add the texture and melting properties of Velveeta to a used sweat sock.
Many of these products are more heavily processed than a goddamn Twinkie, and yet there is a market for them because people want to eat vegan without having to think about what makes a vegan diet different from how they used to eat.
I really appreciate the vegan cookbooks and websites that manage to deliver recipes that are not
a) attempting to sadly recreate some meat dish
b) peddling nonsense nutrition and toxophobia
um that sort of turned into a rant.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:58 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
And so many of these products are bad. I was fooled by reading some vegan discussion boards into trying out Daiya vegan cheese (board topic: New vegan cheeses that will make you never miss dairy cheese again!)
It was as if someone had tried to add the texture and melting properties of Velveeta to a used sweat sock.
Many of these products are more heavily processed than a goddamn Twinkie, and yet there is a market for them because people want to eat vegan without having to think about what makes a vegan diet different from how they used to eat.
I really appreciate the vegan cookbooks and websites that manage to deliver recipes that are not
a) attempting to sadly recreate some meat dish
b) peddling nonsense nutrition and toxophobia
um that sort of turned into a rant.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:58 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
And still, people suddenly find it a good idea to eat raw kale, which was never a good idea.
hmm, what makes you think that people haven't been eating raw kale forever? Is there a source for this?
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 1:35 PM on December 2, 2014
hmm, what makes you think that people haven't been eating raw kale forever? Is there a source for this?
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 1:35 PM on December 2, 2014
> "Why? because a lot of those vegans are meat eaters who are vegans out of some weird, quasi religious conviction ..."
I like the taste texture and protein content of seitan therefore I am a strange religious zealot.
What a pity I do not instead enjoy any of the "great vegetarian dishes" developed "before industrialization of food", like ... seitan.
Then I would not be such a weirdo.
posted by kyrademon at 1:59 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
I like the taste texture and protein content of seitan therefore I am a strange religious zealot.
What a pity I do not instead enjoy any of the "great vegetarian dishes" developed "before industrialization of food", like ... seitan.
Then I would not be such a weirdo.
posted by kyrademon at 1:59 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I saw the 'veg*ns who eat faux meat are bad and they should feel bad' bat signal in the sky and had to come back to dispel some common misconceptions. I really do love it when omnivores come into food-related discussions specifically to tell us dumb veg*ns what we should and shouldn't eat, because they're doing the exact same thing they're constantly accusing vegans and vegetarians of doing -- that is, making blanket dietary proclamations from on high based on dubious appeals to authority -- but they appear to be doing it totally unawares.
Like, I never much see omnivores fretting over the terrifying array of hormones and antibiotics that are pumped into the animals they eat with such great gusto every day, but damn, show up to a summertime grillout with a box of Boca burgers instead of a sad-assed salad and suddenly they're tripping all over themselves to tell me about how unhealthy and chemical-filled and not real my food is. This behavior is usually accompanied by some self-righteous crowing about how their cow burger has never contained anything except 100% pure beef and absolutely nothing else, which is a statement that is rarely ever true, and if I dare to mention, say, the prevalence of antibiotic use in factory farming, oops, I've just become that annoying vegan who just won't shut up about it!
So I'll tell you what, haughty omnivores who love to muse about how judgmental vegans are: Eat whatever you want, from Lean Cuisine to steak tartare and everything in between. Cook it or don't. Buy it in the frozen meals section at the supermarket or grow it in your backyard. Eat nothing but meat and dairy products or eat a rainbow of fruits and vegetables. Regardless of what you've chosen to believe, very few vegans give a tenth of a half of a damn what you're eating as long as you're not waving a KFC drumstick in our face while yammering about how God wouldn't have made animals out of meat if He didn't want us to eat them.
The bottom line is that you really don't have any kind of authority to tell vegans what "real food" is -- let alone that its definition specifically excludes raw kale, which is a plant I raise from seed and harvest to eat out of my own home garden, which makes it seem a heck of a lot like "real food" to me -- and you don't get to tell us what to eat for no other reason than because you've inexplicably decided that what you choose to put into your body is vastly superior to what we choose to put into ours. If you're really that concerned with chemicals and highly processed foods, apologies, but I've got a multi-trillion dollar meat and dairy industry to show you. Seriously, if you've ever mowed down a BK Bacon Cheeseburger Deluxe even once in your life, you've officially vacated the moral high ground required to tell me that my desire to tuck into a Gardein burger is born from some "weird, quasi religious conviction" rather than from a simple hominid craving for a grilled protein puck on a bun instead of a lentil salad or a mucky, wet portobello mushroom cap.
PS, after ten years, I'm really tired of being offered two slices of bread with some hummus slapped between them and maybe some cucumbers or bean sprouts sprinkled on top and having people tell me that it's dinner while everyone else noshes down on their appetizers, soups, entrees, and desserts. Vegans are not some weird alternative life form that can subsist entirely bean spread alone. We can eat all of the same foods you do except for meat, eggs, and dairy.
(board topic: New vegan cheeses that will make you never miss dairy cheese again!)
This is one of those things that omnivores are always bugging me about as the Token Vegan in, like, 99% of situations, so I feel very confident in declaring that the answer to your presumed question is sorry, man, there is simply no such thing. I know it must sound nuts to a fromage aficionado, but many vegans learn to live totally without cheese OR cheese analogues just like anyone else with a specific dietary restriction learns to live totally without whatever specific thing they're allergic or sensitive to.
You can replace some of the texture (creamy, not melty) and maybe get a marginally similar flavor, which is why fermented cashew cheese has been the new hotness for a while, but if you give it to an omnivore, they're probably going to spit it into a napkin and act like you've betrayed them. So if you really love dairy cheese and you just can't imagine never eating it again... well, you're in luck, because not everyone has to be vegan!
posted by divined by radio at 2:04 PM on December 2, 2014 [8 favorites]
Like, I never much see omnivores fretting over the terrifying array of hormones and antibiotics that are pumped into the animals they eat with such great gusto every day, but damn, show up to a summertime grillout with a box of Boca burgers instead of a sad-assed salad and suddenly they're tripping all over themselves to tell me about how unhealthy and chemical-filled and not real my food is. This behavior is usually accompanied by some self-righteous crowing about how their cow burger has never contained anything except 100% pure beef and absolutely nothing else, which is a statement that is rarely ever true, and if I dare to mention, say, the prevalence of antibiotic use in factory farming, oops, I've just become that annoying vegan who just won't shut up about it!
So I'll tell you what, haughty omnivores who love to muse about how judgmental vegans are: Eat whatever you want, from Lean Cuisine to steak tartare and everything in between. Cook it or don't. Buy it in the frozen meals section at the supermarket or grow it in your backyard. Eat nothing but meat and dairy products or eat a rainbow of fruits and vegetables. Regardless of what you've chosen to believe, very few vegans give a tenth of a half of a damn what you're eating as long as you're not waving a KFC drumstick in our face while yammering about how God wouldn't have made animals out of meat if He didn't want us to eat them.
The bottom line is that you really don't have any kind of authority to tell vegans what "real food" is -- let alone that its definition specifically excludes raw kale, which is a plant I raise from seed and harvest to eat out of my own home garden, which makes it seem a heck of a lot like "real food" to me -- and you don't get to tell us what to eat for no other reason than because you've inexplicably decided that what you choose to put into your body is vastly superior to what we choose to put into ours. If you're really that concerned with chemicals and highly processed foods, apologies, but I've got a multi-trillion dollar meat and dairy industry to show you. Seriously, if you've ever mowed down a BK Bacon Cheeseburger Deluxe even once in your life, you've officially vacated the moral high ground required to tell me that my desire to tuck into a Gardein burger is born from some "weird, quasi religious conviction" rather than from a simple hominid craving for a grilled protein puck on a bun instead of a lentil salad or a mucky, wet portobello mushroom cap.
PS, after ten years, I'm really tired of being offered two slices of bread with some hummus slapped between them and maybe some cucumbers or bean sprouts sprinkled on top and having people tell me that it's dinner while everyone else noshes down on their appetizers, soups, entrees, and desserts. Vegans are not some weird alternative life form that can subsist entirely bean spread alone. We can eat all of the same foods you do except for meat, eggs, and dairy.
(board topic: New vegan cheeses that will make you never miss dairy cheese again!)
This is one of those things that omnivores are always bugging me about as the Token Vegan in, like, 99% of situations, so I feel very confident in declaring that the answer to your presumed question is sorry, man, there is simply no such thing. I know it must sound nuts to a fromage aficionado, but many vegans learn to live totally without cheese OR cheese analogues just like anyone else with a specific dietary restriction learns to live totally without whatever specific thing they're allergic or sensitive to.
You can replace some of the texture (creamy, not melty) and maybe get a marginally similar flavor, which is why fermented cashew cheese has been the new hotness for a while, but if you give it to an omnivore, they're probably going to spit it into a napkin and act like you've betrayed them. So if you really love dairy cheese and you just can't imagine never eating it again... well, you're in luck, because not everyone has to be vegan!
posted by divined by radio at 2:04 PM on December 2, 2014 [8 favorites]
I was coming in to rebut that stupid anti-vegan comment but once again, divined by radio has fucking mic-dropped it.
Eating one shitty veggie burger does not make you the Veggie Burger Authority. Shit, I've eaten tons of bad veggie burgers--and oddly enough, they were not at vegan restaurants, which are more likely to make their own because they too know the sadness of getting a craptastic Boca Burger puck as that is often the only option we get when we want to dine out with our friends who are not vegan (but who, funnily enough, don't set out to make us feel like shit like total strangers seem to gleefully want to do)--but I also resent the idea that All Vegans Fit One Mold. I make tons of stuff by scratch at home for my diet, but goddamit, I am human and sometimes my sorry ass doesn't want to cook, so I too can eat crappy processed food like an omnivore does upon occasion.
I remember before I was vegan and some of my best friends were. I never once made fun of them. This was back in 2000 when there was not one-tenth of the awesome shit I can buy at a regular supermarket in 2014 and not a health food store. I am not a perfect vegan. I like Veganaise (especially the chipotle flavour). Sometimes I eat Oreos. I should not be expected to a perfect vegan by omnivores or my fellow vegans. The way people can go at us is something I would never fucking dream of doing to a human being. But if you are gonna be a jerk out loud with no cause, I will say something.
On preview: what divined by radio said.
posted by Kitteh at 2:19 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Eating one shitty veggie burger does not make you the Veggie Burger Authority. Shit, I've eaten tons of bad veggie burgers--and oddly enough, they were not at vegan restaurants, which are more likely to make their own because they too know the sadness of getting a craptastic Boca Burger puck as that is often the only option we get when we want to dine out with our friends who are not vegan (but who, funnily enough, don't set out to make us feel like shit like total strangers seem to gleefully want to do)--but I also resent the idea that All Vegans Fit One Mold. I make tons of stuff by scratch at home for my diet, but goddamit, I am human and sometimes my sorry ass doesn't want to cook, so I too can eat crappy processed food like an omnivore does upon occasion.
I remember before I was vegan and some of my best friends were. I never once made fun of them. This was back in 2000 when there was not one-tenth of the awesome shit I can buy at a regular supermarket in 2014 and not a health food store. I am not a perfect vegan. I like Veganaise (especially the chipotle flavour). Sometimes I eat Oreos. I should not be expected to a perfect vegan by omnivores or my fellow vegans. The way people can go at us is something I would never fucking dream of doing to a human being. But if you are gonna be a jerk out loud with no cause, I will say something.
On preview: what divined by radio said.
posted by Kitteh at 2:19 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, I am the fucking master of fermented cashew cheeses. My latest creation was made with lemon zest and peppercorns.
posted by Kitteh at 2:20 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 2:20 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Heh, well it's just piling on at this point but I eat Boca Original Vegan burgers and things like Tofurky Deli Slices a lot because:
1. I like them, they are very good substitutes for meat based sandwiches I have liked my entire life that derive most of their taste experience from the condiments anyway.
2. They are pretty low calorie and have a lot of protein.
3. Ease of preparation.
I eat beans and rice and stuff all the time too, but you end up with a lot more empty carb calories there and beans can be harder to digest.
The rejection of meat for a lot of people isn't quasi-religious, it's based on real ethical and environmental concerns. I am the last person on the planet who will self flagellate, if I was a character in Futurama it would be hedonism bot. (Well I guess he might self flagellate, but not out of guilt!) The faux meat products I consume I eat because I enjoy them. :P
posted by Drinky Die at 2:39 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
1. I like them, they are very good substitutes for meat based sandwiches I have liked my entire life that derive most of their taste experience from the condiments anyway.
2. They are pretty low calorie and have a lot of protein.
3. Ease of preparation.
I eat beans and rice and stuff all the time too, but you end up with a lot more empty carb calories there and beans can be harder to digest.
The rejection of meat for a lot of people isn't quasi-religious, it's based on real ethical and environmental concerns. I am the last person on the planet who will self flagellate, if I was a character in Futurama it would be hedonism bot. (Well I guess he might self flagellate, but not out of guilt!) The faux meat products I consume I eat because I enjoy them. :P
posted by Drinky Die at 2:39 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Question: What does raw kale taste like? Is it something that I am likely to want eat everyday? Or is it edible only if I am thinking of England?
I come from a country that is largely vegetarian and eating veggies has never been considered a chore or a sacrifice.... but then we hardly eat anything (apart from fruits) raw ... almost everything veggie that I ate back home was cooked in some way or other, often with several spices in the mix.
So, I am kinda curious here. From some of the posts, it seems that a lot of vegan products talked about are either tasteless or have a very unappetizing flavor. How true is that?
Do I have to sacrifice my taste buds if I want to be a vegan in US?
posted by TheLittlePrince at 2:53 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I come from a country that is largely vegetarian and eating veggies has never been considered a chore or a sacrifice.... but then we hardly eat anything (apart from fruits) raw ... almost everything veggie that I ate back home was cooked in some way or other, often with several spices in the mix.
So, I am kinda curious here. From some of the posts, it seems that a lot of vegan products talked about are either tasteless or have a very unappetizing flavor. How true is that?
Do I have to sacrifice my taste buds if I want to be a vegan in US?
posted by TheLittlePrince at 2:53 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Do I have to sacrifice my taste buds if I want to be a vegan in US?
No. I mean, it's America. We will get you fat on delicious food of any conceivable cuisine. Raw kale tastes kind of cabbagey I guess?
posted by Drinky Die at 2:56 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
No. I mean, it's America. We will get you fat on delicious food of any conceivable cuisine. Raw kale tastes kind of cabbagey I guess?
posted by Drinky Die at 2:56 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Oh please! I really am not anti-vegan and least of all anti-vegetarian. I like seitan, I love good tofu, and as I wrote, I understand that the fact that I dislike raw kale (while I love cooked kale) might be idiosyncratic.
I can easily cook a five course vegan dinner where no one even realizes it is vegan. And there will be not the slightest hint of a seitan-burger or almond - or soy milk.
"Why eat anything with a high protein content relative to its starches" seems to be what you're asking.
No. That is not what I am asking. I am comparing traditional dishes high in vegetable protein to processed, industrial products high in vegetable protein, and suggesting that if you are that much into food, you might want to cook your vegan high protein meals rather than buy processed food.
I will pay a lot for high quality products, but no way will I pay for processed food that pretends to be something it isn't.
posted by mumimor at 2:57 PM on December 2, 2014
I can easily cook a five course vegan dinner where no one even realizes it is vegan. And there will be not the slightest hint of a seitan-burger or almond - or soy milk.
"Why eat anything with a high protein content relative to its starches" seems to be what you're asking.
No. That is not what I am asking. I am comparing traditional dishes high in vegetable protein to processed, industrial products high in vegetable protein, and suggesting that if you are that much into food, you might want to cook your vegan high protein meals rather than buy processed food.
I will pay a lot for high quality products, but no way will I pay for processed food that pretends to be something it isn't.
posted by mumimor at 2:57 PM on December 2, 2014
"Why eat anything with a high protein content relative to its starches" seems to be what you're asking.
No. That is not what I am asking. I am comparing traditional dishes high in vegetable protein to processed, industrial products high in vegetable protein
Can of Goya black beans: 408 calories and 24 grams protein.
4 Boca Original Vegan Patties: 280 calories and 52 grams protein.
The answer is the processed product is much higher in protein per calorie.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:01 PM on December 2, 2014
No. That is not what I am asking. I am comparing traditional dishes high in vegetable protein to processed, industrial products high in vegetable protein
Can of Goya black beans: 408 calories and 24 grams protein.
4 Boca Original Vegan Patties: 280 calories and 52 grams protein.
The answer is the processed product is much higher in protein per calorie.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:01 PM on December 2, 2014
(And since the processed product is made of soy and wheat protein it is a more complete protein source than the unprocessed beans alone)
posted by Drinky Die at 3:02 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by Drinky Die at 3:02 PM on December 2, 2014
Hey if any Chicago mefites wanna pool their money and make some money off Logan Square, I've got a really boring idea that I think would be fairly profitable.
No bars, no restaurants, no condos, just a multilevel parking garage with a mix of local, public, and Zip car spaces, maybe with business space upstairs or ground level.
If you want to double down on my ideas not-being-stupid, I would say a learn/play/exercise space for Children. There's whirly ball, laser tag, and barcades aplenty for grown folk, but the only good indoor (for-profit) spaces for all the cool Moms and Dads to take their kids are the Diversey Rock'n'Bowl and the seriously rinky dink, dirty Chuck E. Cheese on Fullerton.
If I had my way, it would be a roller rink but, considering that all the roller rinks I grew up with shut down ages ago, maybe that's not the wisest investment. But the parking lot idea is SOLID. /derail
posted by elr at 3:06 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
No bars, no restaurants, no condos, just a multilevel parking garage with a mix of local, public, and Zip car spaces, maybe with business space upstairs or ground level.
If you want to double down on my ideas not-being-stupid, I would say a learn/play/exercise space for Children. There's whirly ball, laser tag, and barcades aplenty for grown folk, but the only good indoor (for-profit) spaces for all the cool Moms and Dads to take their kids are the Diversey Rock'n'Bowl and the seriously rinky dink, dirty Chuck E. Cheese on Fullerton.
If I had my way, it would be a roller rink but, considering that all the roller rinks I grew up with shut down ages ago, maybe that's not the wisest investment. But the parking lot idea is SOLID. /derail
posted by elr at 3:06 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
> "What does raw kale taste like?"
Those who like it, like it, those who don't, don't. It's kind of chewy/crunchy like raw cabbage, but it's not as thick and the flavor is a bit subtler.
> "From some of the posts, it seems that a lot of vegan products talked about are either tasteless or have a very unappetizing flavor. How true is that?"
They vary in quality from brand to brand, but there are many that are super-tasty. However, people who have a vested emotional interest in finding them not so (whether from an aversion to veganism in general, the concept of processed foods, the concept of vegetable-based foods that mimic the taste and texture of meats or cheeses, or other reasons) will often try a few versions, often at random and/or poorly prepared, and declare that all of them must be terrible.
(I will note, to forestall the likely response, that some people will say they tried a million varieties of vegan cheese and they were all terrible. Vegan cheese is tricky to make if you want it to taste/act like dairy cheese and not just be its own separate thing, and only recently have some brands started doing a better job of this, so such a thing can take longer to find. YMMV.)
> "Do I have to sacrifice my taste buds if I want to be a vegan in US?"
Not at all! In just about anything larger than a small town in the U.S., specialty stores offer so many varieties of prepared vegan food that very few people will like none of them. And for those that prefer more whole vegetables or making their own prepared foods from scratch, the variety of vegetables on offer is often dizzying compared to elsewhere in the world. I miss it a little now that I live in the UK, although it's not really a problem here either.
posted by kyrademon at 3:21 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Those who like it, like it, those who don't, don't. It's kind of chewy/crunchy like raw cabbage, but it's not as thick and the flavor is a bit subtler.
> "From some of the posts, it seems that a lot of vegan products talked about are either tasteless or have a very unappetizing flavor. How true is that?"
They vary in quality from brand to brand, but there are many that are super-tasty. However, people who have a vested emotional interest in finding them not so (whether from an aversion to veganism in general, the concept of processed foods, the concept of vegetable-based foods that mimic the taste and texture of meats or cheeses, or other reasons) will often try a few versions, often at random and/or poorly prepared, and declare that all of them must be terrible.
(I will note, to forestall the likely response, that some people will say they tried a million varieties of vegan cheese and they were all terrible. Vegan cheese is tricky to make if you want it to taste/act like dairy cheese and not just be its own separate thing, and only recently have some brands started doing a better job of this, so such a thing can take longer to find. YMMV.)
> "Do I have to sacrifice my taste buds if I want to be a vegan in US?"
Not at all! In just about anything larger than a small town in the U.S., specialty stores offer so many varieties of prepared vegan food that very few people will like none of them. And for those that prefer more whole vegetables or making their own prepared foods from scratch, the variety of vegetables on offer is often dizzying compared to elsewhere in the world. I miss it a little now that I live in the UK, although it's not really a problem here either.
posted by kyrademon at 3:21 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
An apology before I shut my fat mouth for the rest of this thread.
I don't think anyone is a "bad vegan", except maybe me because I can only manage it two meals a day.
The vegan cheese I had bummed me out, because its aim was merely imitative - it had nothing to offer besides "hey, this is sort of like that thing you miss, dairy addict" - and after I ate it I felt dumb for wanting it in the first place. To me, the best vegan "substitutes" aren't really substitutes at all - they are items worth eating on their own terms.
tl;dr I ate some bad cheez and it was my own fault.
posted by murphy slaw at 3:27 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think anyone is a "bad vegan", except maybe me because I can only manage it two meals a day.
The vegan cheese I had bummed me out, because its aim was merely imitative - it had nothing to offer besides "hey, this is sort of like that thing you miss, dairy addict" - and after I ate it I felt dumb for wanting it in the first place. To me, the best vegan "substitutes" aren't really substitutes at all - they are items worth eating on their own terms.
tl;dr I ate some bad cheez and it was my own fault.
posted by murphy slaw at 3:27 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
> "I really am not anti-vegan and least of all anti-vegetarian."
If you wish to avoid giving this impression, possibly in the future you might refrain from stating that anyone who who enjoys certain food products you do not care for could only possibly be doing so out of some "weird, quasi religious conviction" that amounts to "whipping themselv[e]s".
posted by kyrademon at 3:31 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you wish to avoid giving this impression, possibly in the future you might refrain from stating that anyone who who enjoys certain food products you do not care for could only possibly be doing so out of some "weird, quasi religious conviction" that amounts to "whipping themselv[e]s".
posted by kyrademon at 3:31 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
The only good vegan cheese experience I had was with the Tofurky brand frozen pizzas that used Daiya. When I tried to use Daiya for a vegan cheesesteak it was kind of awful. The problem was taste though, not texture. I feel like they have to be close.
posted by Drinky Die at 3:32 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Drinky Die at 3:32 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't eat raw kale like, by itself as a snack, but raw kale is honestly a pretty delicious ingredient in a salad (personally I'd add chickpeas, lemon juice, olive oil, salt, maybe a little red onion and/or nutritional yeast).
traditional dishes high in vegetable protein
The thing is that there aren't actually that many. Your examples of a "vegetarian cous-cous", a "hummus sandwich", a "sandwich with tomato, grilled aubergine and lettuce", and "pasta and legumes" all have a very high starch to protein ratio, especially relative to, say, something made out of TVP and wheat gluten.
(Also, I mean, unless you're making all your own bread and pasta from coarsely-ground whole grain wheat, those are also highly processed, industrialized products. Even the dread Tofurky slices seem to be mostly tofu and wheat gluten [i.e., the main ingredient in seitan], prepared with some other flours and spices. That really doesn't seem categorically different from commercial pasta or bread to me.)
posted by en forme de poire at 3:36 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
traditional dishes high in vegetable protein
The thing is that there aren't actually that many. Your examples of a "vegetarian cous-cous", a "hummus sandwich", a "sandwich with tomato, grilled aubergine and lettuce", and "pasta and legumes" all have a very high starch to protein ratio, especially relative to, say, something made out of TVP and wheat gluten.
(Also, I mean, unless you're making all your own bread and pasta from coarsely-ground whole grain wheat, those are also highly processed, industrialized products. Even the dread Tofurky slices seem to be mostly tofu and wheat gluten [i.e., the main ingredient in seitan], prepared with some other flours and spices. That really doesn't seem categorically different from commercial pasta or bread to me.)
posted by en forme de poire at 3:36 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
(kyrademon I think that was muminor and not murphy slaw)
posted by en forme de poire at 3:37 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by en forme de poire at 3:37 PM on December 2, 2014
Hey if any Chicago mefites wanna pool their money and make some money off Logan Square, I've got a really boring idea that I think would be fairly profitable.
No bars, no restaurants, no condos, just a multilevel parking garage with a mix of local, public, and Zip car spaces, maybe with business space upstairs or ground level.
If it means I can ride my bike down Milwaukee between Fullerton and California (Non-Chicagoans: this is where Owen+Alchemy is located, it's a dense strip of bars, gastropubs, coffeeshops, etc) without a giggling couple wandering out in front of me to jaywalk, or having a cab stop in the only lane of traffic to drop off passengers, or worry about getting doored by someone who's had a few drinks, sign me up as an investor.
Sometimes Logan Square feels more like the new Wrigleyville than the new Wicker Park.
posted by Juliet Banana at 3:38 PM on December 2, 2014
No bars, no restaurants, no condos, just a multilevel parking garage with a mix of local, public, and Zip car spaces, maybe with business space upstairs or ground level.
If it means I can ride my bike down Milwaukee between Fullerton and California (Non-Chicagoans: this is where Owen+Alchemy is located, it's a dense strip of bars, gastropubs, coffeeshops, etc) without a giggling couple wandering out in front of me to jaywalk, or having a cab stop in the only lane of traffic to drop off passengers, or worry about getting doored by someone who's had a few drinks, sign me up as an investor.
Sometimes Logan Square feels more like the new Wrigleyville than the new Wicker Park.
posted by Juliet Banana at 3:38 PM on December 2, 2014
> "(kyrademon I think that was muminor and not murphy slaw)"
Yes, I was replying to muminor. All quotes in my reply were from comments by muminor, not murphy slaw. I apologize if for some reason that was unclear.
posted by kyrademon at 3:41 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yes, I was replying to muminor. All quotes in my reply were from comments by muminor, not murphy slaw. I apologize if for some reason that was unclear.
posted by kyrademon at 3:41 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I haven't had the Tofurkey brand pizzas with the Daiya because holy shit, are those suckers expensive. I did try the Daiya brand frozen pizza once though (still expensive but the store was having a sale). It wasn't bad, but they also have a g/f crust which is totes fine but it was more like eating a pizza cracker than an actual crust. I should note that I ate it one Friday night at like 11 pm because I had many beers. I do not think it would stand up to sober daytime eating. No sir.
posted by Kitteh at 3:49 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 3:49 PM on December 2, 2014
I think maybe the U R BAD VEG thing comes from so many veg* people--maybe not the majority, I don't know, but very stridently vocal--who go on at length about 'natural' and 'organic' and 'whole' and all that stuff, then happily chow down on something as processed as a Twinkie. Like I said, they tend to be the most strident, and the most strident MEAT IS TEH MURDERZZ kind of people, so the hypocrisy is annoying and us omnivores overreact.
That said, I really don't get the whole notion of imitation food. Shoehorning something into being what it's not, and what it isn't very good at, seems self-defeating to me. Vegetables are delicious! There are entire cuisines based on being a vegetarian some or all of the time! So I don't eat imitation food. And I am puzzled by those who do when there are so many other much more delicious alternatives to choose from (and yes I am saying this as someone who has had some veggie burgers that are delicious).
Also I love raw kale.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:50 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
That said, I really don't get the whole notion of imitation food. Shoehorning something into being what it's not, and what it isn't very good at, seems self-defeating to me. Vegetables are delicious! There are entire cuisines based on being a vegetarian some or all of the time! So I don't eat imitation food. And I am puzzled by those who do when there are so many other much more delicious alternatives to choose from (and yes I am saying this as someone who has had some veggie burgers that are delicious).
Also I love raw kale.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:50 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Amusingly, the thing I'm making for dinner tonight will involve kale - cooked kale, mixed into mashed potato to make colcannon. And when I do it I put (dairy) cheddar cheese on top.
Call me a foodie snob, call me a hipster, call me a dirty omnivore - the only thing I'll be caring about is whether you can call me "full".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:05 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Call me a foodie snob, call me a hipster, call me a dirty omnivore - the only thing I'll be caring about is whether you can call me "full".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:05 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dinner at EC's house!
colcannon is the best
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:07 PM on December 2, 2014
colcannon is the best
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:07 PM on December 2, 2014
Meatloaf is just imitation bread. Why do people eat that?
posted by Drinky Die at 4:12 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by Drinky Die at 4:12 PM on December 2, 2014
Something horrible happened to them out in life
posted by The Whelk at 4:14 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 4:14 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
> "There are entire cuisines based on being a vegetarian some or all of the time!"
Indeed. And some of them include imitation meats. Wheat-based imitation meats date back to somewhere around the 7th century. Soy-based imitation meats probably date back much earlier than that, although there was a great flowering of variety in the form in 17th-century Japan with dishes such as Kiji-yaki (Roast Pheasant), Shigi-yaki (Roast Snipe), Ganmodoki (Mock Goose), etc.
Not that it really matters whether the idea came from 7th century Chinese monks or last night, but the idea that modern vegans are somehow *avoiding* delicious ancient cuisines by having a soy patty is quite silly.
posted by kyrademon at 4:20 PM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
Indeed. And some of them include imitation meats. Wheat-based imitation meats date back to somewhere around the 7th century. Soy-based imitation meats probably date back much earlier than that, although there was a great flowering of variety in the form in 17th-century Japan with dishes such as Kiji-yaki (Roast Pheasant), Shigi-yaki (Roast Snipe), Ganmodoki (Mock Goose), etc.
Not that it really matters whether the idea came from 7th century Chinese monks or last night, but the idea that modern vegans are somehow *avoiding* delicious ancient cuisines by having a soy patty is quite silly.
posted by kyrademon at 4:20 PM on December 2, 2014 [5 favorites]
Cmon over to my house for tofurkey sandwiches on meatloaf.
posted by murphy slaw at 4:22 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 4:22 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Vegetables are delicious!
Indeed, and the stir-fried broccoli with garlic sauce at Long Life Vegi House is even more delicious with the Buddhist faux-duck breast!
People who don't like faux meats shouldn't eat them. They should simultaneously shut up about how the rest of us who do like them shouldn't eat them either.
posted by Lexica at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Indeed, and the stir-fried broccoli with garlic sauce at Long Life Vegi House is even more delicious with the Buddhist faux-duck breast!
People who don't like faux meats shouldn't eat them. They should simultaneously shut up about how the rest of us who do like them shouldn't eat them either.
posted by Lexica at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
That is misdirected because I never said anyone else shouldn't. I said I am puzzled and that I do not eat them.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:31 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:31 PM on December 2, 2014
> "That is misdirected because I never said anyone else shouldn't. I said I am puzzled and that I do not eat them."
Well, you did also say that "so many" vegetarians were hypocrites for doing so.
posted by kyrademon at 4:52 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, you did also say that "so many" vegetarians were hypocrites for doing so.
posted by kyrademon at 4:52 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
Personally, I've always been perplexed by people who are perplexed at the concept of such things. From the vegan perspective, or at least my perspective, it sort of sounds like this:
"What is your reaction to the notion of grinding up a pig, spicing it heavily, sticking it in a tube, and calling it a 'pork sausage'?"
"Makes sense."
"OK. Now, what is your reaction to the notion of grinding up some vegetables, spicing them heavily, sticking them in a tube, and calling it a 'veggie sausage'?"
"That is weird and incomprehensible to me!"
posted by kyrademon at 5:41 PM on December 2, 2014 [8 favorites]
"What is your reaction to the notion of grinding up a pig, spicing it heavily, sticking it in a tube, and calling it a 'pork sausage'?"
"Makes sense."
"OK. Now, what is your reaction to the notion of grinding up some vegetables, spicing them heavily, sticking them in a tube, and calling it a 'veggie sausage'?"
"That is weird and incomprehensible to me!"
posted by kyrademon at 5:41 PM on December 2, 2014 [8 favorites]
Dinner at EC's house!
maybe not because i somehow managed to burn the potatoes which is really impressive considering that I was boiling them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:20 PM on December 2, 2014
maybe not because i somehow managed to burn the potatoes which is really impressive considering that I was boiling them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:20 PM on December 2, 2014
Guess what, unless you are eating entirely from your own garden and foraged foods you're going to be supporting something terrible by eating!
There's no escape, scream into a bag if it helps.
posted by Ferreous at 6:31 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
There's no escape, scream into a bag if it helps.
posted by Ferreous at 6:31 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm not much on raw kale, but loosely chop it, swirl it around in some olive oil, lightly salt and pepper it, and bake it until crispy, and I will eat the all of that before it gets cold. So will my kids.
posted by scrump at 6:46 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by scrump at 6:46 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
I just got back from trivia at a local pub that is part of a Ontario chain and bizarrely they had one of the best veggie burgers I've ever had in a bar (looking at The Righteous Room in Atlanta as the all time forever #1). I was really not expecting that from a menu that looks very Sisco-ish. Pleasantly surprised. I could do without the piling stuff so high I have to learn how to unhinge my jaw to eat it, but thumbs up.
posted by Kitteh at 7:31 PM on December 2, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 7:31 PM on December 2, 2014
That said, I really don't get the whole notion of imitation food. Shoehorning something into being what it's not, and what it isn't very good at, seems self-defeating to me.
I mean... isn't "shoehorning something into being what it's not" basically the definition of technology? Teosinte didn't start as a grain that could have realistically fed a lot of people, but selection by farmers ~10k years ago turned it into maize. I was actually just at a talk where the speaker made this interesting and somewhat provocative point that there's no reason why you couldn't eventually have fake meat that tastes better than mass market meat, just as technology has allowed us to replace horses with things that go much faster and don't poop in the streets. Obviously today's commercial products don't taste that much like meat, but (as a non-vegetarian) I feel like I've already had "fake" meat sandwiches that would not have been improved in any way by the addition of "real" meat (or grilled aubergines, for that matter). I've also had some amazing "fake" vegan chicken wings that were not quite identical to the real thing, but were in my estimation equally delicious. (I currently eat meat a few times a week, so it's not that I've forgotten what it tastes like, heh.)
Again, not trying to defend fake meat uber alles or anything - I actually eat it pretty rarely - but I just don't think that a kind of teleological argument against it (i.e., plants as individual ingredients don't taste like meat, so it's not in the order of things to make them taste like that) makes a lot of sense. With few exceptions today's meatier preparations of plants wouldn't "fool" a carnivore, but that doesn't mean they're inferior -- I can think of several instances in which I would really prefer a bean burger to a hamburger, for instance. That also doesn't mean they're always going to be as unlike animal-derived meat as they are now. And it definitely doesn't follow, for me, that it's misguided to want or to work towards a convincing plant-based meat substitute.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:45 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
I mean... isn't "shoehorning something into being what it's not" basically the definition of technology? Teosinte didn't start as a grain that could have realistically fed a lot of people, but selection by farmers ~10k years ago turned it into maize. I was actually just at a talk where the speaker made this interesting and somewhat provocative point that there's no reason why you couldn't eventually have fake meat that tastes better than mass market meat, just as technology has allowed us to replace horses with things that go much faster and don't poop in the streets. Obviously today's commercial products don't taste that much like meat, but (as a non-vegetarian) I feel like I've already had "fake" meat sandwiches that would not have been improved in any way by the addition of "real" meat (or grilled aubergines, for that matter). I've also had some amazing "fake" vegan chicken wings that were not quite identical to the real thing, but were in my estimation equally delicious. (I currently eat meat a few times a week, so it's not that I've forgotten what it tastes like, heh.)
Again, not trying to defend fake meat uber alles or anything - I actually eat it pretty rarely - but I just don't think that a kind of teleological argument against it (i.e., plants as individual ingredients don't taste like meat, so it's not in the order of things to make them taste like that) makes a lot of sense. With few exceptions today's meatier preparations of plants wouldn't "fool" a carnivore, but that doesn't mean they're inferior -- I can think of several instances in which I would really prefer a bean burger to a hamburger, for instance. That also doesn't mean they're always going to be as unlike animal-derived meat as they are now. And it definitely doesn't follow, for me, that it's misguided to want or to work towards a convincing plant-based meat substitute.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:45 PM on December 2, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well, you did also say that "so many" vegetarians were hypocrites for doing so.
That isn't what I said. I said that the vegetarians who harp on about all holistic natural food and then chow down on highly processed food are hypocrites. Please stop misrepresenting what I have said. Thank you.
"That is weird and incomprehensible to me!"
Is another unfair mischaracterization. Sausage is a mode of preparation. Beef, e.g., is a thing. Using a mode of preparation is one thing, I find fake duck/chicken/beef/octopus pretty odd. I did not judge anyone who likes them. I did not say people who like them shouldn't eat them. I said that I, personally, find it puzzling to go for imitations rather than go for what works really well.
And, just FYI, I am not a vegetarian.... but I am poor, which means that a lot of my diet at home is functionally vegetarian. I just don't see the point in imitations, that's all. You do, that's fine. In no way am I judging you for liking them or saying you shouldn't eat them or that you are a bad person.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:21 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
That isn't what I said. I said that the vegetarians who harp on about all holistic natural food and then chow down on highly processed food are hypocrites. Please stop misrepresenting what I have said. Thank you.
"That is weird and incomprehensible to me!"
Is another unfair mischaracterization. Sausage is a mode of preparation. Beef, e.g., is a thing. Using a mode of preparation is one thing, I find fake duck/chicken/beef/octopus pretty odd. I did not judge anyone who likes them. I did not say people who like them shouldn't eat them. I said that I, personally, find it puzzling to go for imitations rather than go for what works really well.
And, just FYI, I am not a vegetarian.... but I am poor, which means that a lot of my diet at home is functionally vegetarian. I just don't see the point in imitations, that's all. You do, that's fine. In no way am I judging you for liking them or saying you shouldn't eat them or that you are a bad person.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:21 PM on December 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
And, just FYI, I am not a vegetarian.... but I am poor, which means that a lot of my diet at home is functionally vegetarian. I just don't see the point in imitations, that's all.
That may be the disconnect. For those of us who deliberately choose not to eat meat, whether it's for health reasons or ethical reasons or whatever reasons, imitations can make a lot of sense. To quote Zen teacher Cheri Huber,
posted by Lexica at 9:11 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
That may be the disconnect. For those of us who deliberately choose not to eat meat, whether it's for health reasons or ethical reasons or whatever reasons, imitations can make a lot of sense. To quote Zen teacher Cheri Huber,
Of course I like to eat "meat." I have grown up in a society that eats "meat." …it's dinner. So of course I like it. Of course I want it. Of course I would miss eating it if I were to stop eating creatures.I feel physically better when I don't eat animal products. I feel wayyyy better emotionally and ethically, after this many years of Buddhist practice, when I don't eat animals. But the memory of meat is still appealing to me. It still smells good (mostly) when I smell it cooking. So it's a real benefit to me to be able to pick up a Celebration Roast or some veggie breakfast sausages and cook them up, or to go to Golden Lotus and have some caramelized un-chicken or tamarind faux-beef.
posted by Lexica at 9:11 PM on December 2, 2014 [3 favorites]
Actually, qcubed, "tea" is almost universally understood to refer to the beverage resulting from the hot water infusion of a wide variety of herbs, leaves, and other plant matter, and has been so understood for literally hundreds of years.
Thus leading to the existence of too many "tea" shops in North America which have almost no proper tea!
It's terrible - I can't get a cuppa without some flowers or adulteration or nastiness like aniseed added. I just want a high quality cup of an infusion of the tea plant.
Saddest thing? Some people working in cafes don't even know the difference between tea & herbal infusions, or between black, green & white teas.
posted by jb at 8:04 AM on December 3, 2014
Thus leading to the existence of too many "tea" shops in North America which have almost no proper tea!
It's terrible - I can't get a cuppa without some flowers or adulteration or nastiness like aniseed added. I just want a high quality cup of an infusion of the tea plant.
Saddest thing? Some people working in cafes don't even know the difference between tea & herbal infusions, or between black, green & white teas.
posted by jb at 8:04 AM on December 3, 2014
Man I worked in a big corporate coffee shop which only incidentally offered tea, and we had to do a whole training on the difference between tea and 'tea'. I can still rattle off the distinction between white/green/black and it was like five years ago and I don't even like tea.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:07 AM on December 3, 2014
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:07 AM on December 3, 2014
I mean... isn't "shoehorning something into being what it's not" basically the definition of technology? Teosinte didn't start as a grain that could have realistically fed a lot of people, but selection by farmers ~10k years ago turned it into maize.
You have a point, but I think there's a difference between "we are going to try to take this largely-inedible plant and see if we can figure out how to make it an edible one," and "we are going to try to take this already-edible plant foodstuff and see if we can figure out how to make it a stand-in for another completely different already-edible meat foodstuff". The former is a case of trying to create a foodstuff; the latter is a case of trying to substitute for a foodstuff.
Of course, there's also any number of reasons why you'd want to try to substitute for a given foodstuff - exhibit A is the quest for the perfect gluten-free flour. Which actually is a good counterpoint to the "why are people trying so hard to come up with veggie meat or anything like that" - there's a valid reason why someone may not be able to eat gluten, and may understand and accept that; and there are also lots of already-extant gluten-free dishes; but still, dammit, sometimes you just want a damn cookie. Similarly, I'm sure that there are vegetarians or vegans who've come to that diet as adults who have no problem with that diet on the whole, but may have moments when they sometimes just want a damn burger.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:12 AM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
You have a point, but I think there's a difference between "we are going to try to take this largely-inedible plant and see if we can figure out how to make it an edible one," and "we are going to try to take this already-edible plant foodstuff and see if we can figure out how to make it a stand-in for another completely different already-edible meat foodstuff". The former is a case of trying to create a foodstuff; the latter is a case of trying to substitute for a foodstuff.
Of course, there's also any number of reasons why you'd want to try to substitute for a given foodstuff - exhibit A is the quest for the perfect gluten-free flour. Which actually is a good counterpoint to the "why are people trying so hard to come up with veggie meat or anything like that" - there's a valid reason why someone may not be able to eat gluten, and may understand and accept that; and there are also lots of already-extant gluten-free dishes; but still, dammit, sometimes you just want a damn cookie. Similarly, I'm sure that there are vegetarians or vegans who've come to that diet as adults who have no problem with that diet on the whole, but may have moments when they sometimes just want a damn burger.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:12 AM on December 3, 2014 [3 favorites]
> It's terrible - I can't get a cuppa without some flowers or adulteration or nastiness like aniseed added. I just want a high quality cup of an infusion of the tea plant.
As far as I'm concerned, the milky swill that the Brits deign to call their national drink is as much of a "tea" as any lavender hibiscus flower power infusion. Drink it straight or go home!
Just rustling some jimmies, don't mind me...
posted by archagon at 10:16 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
As far as I'm concerned, the milky swill that the Brits deign to call their national drink is as much of a "tea" as any lavender hibiscus flower power infusion. Drink it straight or go home!
Just rustling some jimmies, don't mind me...
posted by archagon at 10:16 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Last comment ITT, I promise.
Similarly, I'm sure that there are vegetarians or vegans who've come to that diet as adults who have no problem with that diet on the whole, but may have moments when they sometimes just want a damn burger.
For sure, but I just want to clarify that there's nothing about being vegan that says you need to (or even that you should) cook all of your food from scratch, and when I want a damn [veggie] burger, it isn't because I'm having any kind of problem with my diet, it's just because I'm a person and people have food cravings.
I think maybe the U R BAD VEG thing comes from so many veg* people--maybe not the majority, I don't know, but very stridently vocal--who go on at length about 'natural' and 'organic' and 'whole' and all that stuff, then happily chow down on something as processed as a Twinkie.
You know there are millions of self-proclaimed environmentalist omnivores who do the same thing, though -- I'm just curious why they don't warrant the same accusations of hypocrisy. Why haven't they earned a stereotype? How many omnivores do you know who claim to eat only "happy" or "local" or "organic" animal products, and then quietly hit up the fast food drive-thru whenever they feel like it (spoiler alert: almost all of them)? How many omnivores do you know who hold forth on the myriad virtues of "eco-friendly living" or "clean eating" while continuing to unblinkingly support one of the most environmentally destructive practices humankind has ever introduced to the world? Not to mention the fact that nearly every omnivore I've ever met has been more stridently vocal about their diet -- "I could never go veg*n, I just love cheese/eggs/steak/foie gras!" "Bacon makes everything better!" "God made animals out of meat so we would eat them!" "'Vegetarian' is an old Native word for 'bad hunter,' hurr!" -- than any individual vegan or vegetarian I've ever met, even that one weird raw food guy who always walked around town with Mason jars of fermenting vegetables in his backpack. I see environmentally-minded omnivores prattling about the presumed superiority of their (notoriously environmentally destructive) diets out in the world and here on MeFi all the dang time, but I try hard not to march up and start accusing them of contemptible hypocrisy because I think that's kind of a bummer thing to do.
Regardless, there are massive lagoons of pig and chicken shit festering all over the world, rendering countless waterways and land tracts rank and unusable, and it's widely understood that going vegetarian is one of the best things you can do for the planet, but omnivores (especially liberal/progressive omnivores) love to sweep all that under the rug without comment and reserve their finger-pointing for vegans who tout the deliciousness of all-natural ingredients but sometimes enjoy a sammich piled high with Tofurky and Veganaise. Matthew 7:3-5 is where it's at when it comes to those folks, beam vs. mote-style: Factory farms 'produce' 74% of the world's poultry, 43% of beef, 50% of pork, and 68% of eggs, so it's an industry you really need to consciously and consistently go out of your way to avoid, and it isn't a commitment I've seen a single omnivore follow through with 100% of the time, even if they're the kind of omnivore who drives a Prius and buys fair trade coffee and only shops at co-ops and farmers' markets. They're still gonna snag something off of the dollar menu at Mickey D's if it's late and they're tired and hungry, you know? (I absolutely believe they have every right to do this, fwiw.) So where's their richly-deserved so many omnivores dictum, their accusations of duplicity? They're doing the same thing so many veg*ns are doing, and they're doing it even more blatantly.
...if you are that much into food, you might want to cook your vegan high protein meals rather than buy processed food.
You hear the same needlessly judgmental tone in threads about poor people: If we really want to [be a Good Vegan/save money], we mustn't eat any convenience food whatsoever, and must instead cook everything from scratch or just eat rice and beans and maybe a little salad every day. If we fail to do this, we are Bad Vegans or Bad Poors. There's no acknowledgment given to the fact that cooking literally all of your food from scratch takes an incredible investment of time and effort, and no acknowledgment given to the fact that there's absolutely no reason for vegans or vegetarians to be held to a higher standard when it comes to convenience food. The thing about veganism isn't that you've signed up for a lifetime of cooking everything from scratch (although there is a lot of that), it's that we don't eat or use products or ingredients derived from animals -- that's it, that's all it takes.
The best part about discussions that tangentially touch on vegan issues is that we just can't win: Either we're hippie-dippie cud chewers who subsist entirely on comestibles commonly reserved for ruminants (like, say, a raw kale salad with radish, fennel, and almonds *stomach grumbles*), or we're hypocritical flagellants for occasionally grabbing some faux meat stirfry takeout or popping a bag of Gardein tenders into the oven so we can get some effectively zero-prep protein into our gaping maws. How can we ever get it right? Is the privilege of obtaining and consuming chemical-laden, highly-processed convenience food intended to be reserved for people who eat animals? Because I can't find any fine print about it on my Insufferable Vegan card...
posted by divined by radio at 11:32 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
Similarly, I'm sure that there are vegetarians or vegans who've come to that diet as adults who have no problem with that diet on the whole, but may have moments when they sometimes just want a damn burger.
For sure, but I just want to clarify that there's nothing about being vegan that says you need to (or even that you should) cook all of your food from scratch, and when I want a damn [veggie] burger, it isn't because I'm having any kind of problem with my diet, it's just because I'm a person and people have food cravings.
I think maybe the U R BAD VEG thing comes from so many veg* people--maybe not the majority, I don't know, but very stridently vocal--who go on at length about 'natural' and 'organic' and 'whole' and all that stuff, then happily chow down on something as processed as a Twinkie.
You know there are millions of self-proclaimed environmentalist omnivores who do the same thing, though -- I'm just curious why they don't warrant the same accusations of hypocrisy. Why haven't they earned a stereotype? How many omnivores do you know who claim to eat only "happy" or "local" or "organic" animal products, and then quietly hit up the fast food drive-thru whenever they feel like it (spoiler alert: almost all of them)? How many omnivores do you know who hold forth on the myriad virtues of "eco-friendly living" or "clean eating" while continuing to unblinkingly support one of the most environmentally destructive practices humankind has ever introduced to the world? Not to mention the fact that nearly every omnivore I've ever met has been more stridently vocal about their diet -- "I could never go veg*n, I just love cheese/eggs/steak/foie gras!" "Bacon makes everything better!" "God made animals out of meat so we would eat them!" "'Vegetarian' is an old Native word for 'bad hunter,' hurr!" -- than any individual vegan or vegetarian I've ever met, even that one weird raw food guy who always walked around town with Mason jars of fermenting vegetables in his backpack. I see environmentally-minded omnivores prattling about the presumed superiority of their (notoriously environmentally destructive) diets out in the world and here on MeFi all the dang time, but I try hard not to march up and start accusing them of contemptible hypocrisy because I think that's kind of a bummer thing to do.
Regardless, there are massive lagoons of pig and chicken shit festering all over the world, rendering countless waterways and land tracts rank and unusable, and it's widely understood that going vegetarian is one of the best things you can do for the planet, but omnivores (especially liberal/progressive omnivores) love to sweep all that under the rug without comment and reserve their finger-pointing for vegans who tout the deliciousness of all-natural ingredients but sometimes enjoy a sammich piled high with Tofurky and Veganaise. Matthew 7:3-5 is where it's at when it comes to those folks, beam vs. mote-style: Factory farms 'produce' 74% of the world's poultry, 43% of beef, 50% of pork, and 68% of eggs, so it's an industry you really need to consciously and consistently go out of your way to avoid, and it isn't a commitment I've seen a single omnivore follow through with 100% of the time, even if they're the kind of omnivore who drives a Prius and buys fair trade coffee and only shops at co-ops and farmers' markets. They're still gonna snag something off of the dollar menu at Mickey D's if it's late and they're tired and hungry, you know? (I absolutely believe they have every right to do this, fwiw.) So where's their richly-deserved so many omnivores dictum, their accusations of duplicity? They're doing the same thing so many veg*ns are doing, and they're doing it even more blatantly.
...if you are that much into food, you might want to cook your vegan high protein meals rather than buy processed food.
You hear the same needlessly judgmental tone in threads about poor people: If we really want to [be a Good Vegan/save money], we mustn't eat any convenience food whatsoever, and must instead cook everything from scratch or just eat rice and beans and maybe a little salad every day. If we fail to do this, we are Bad Vegans or Bad Poors. There's no acknowledgment given to the fact that cooking literally all of your food from scratch takes an incredible investment of time and effort, and no acknowledgment given to the fact that there's absolutely no reason for vegans or vegetarians to be held to a higher standard when it comes to convenience food. The thing about veganism isn't that you've signed up for a lifetime of cooking everything from scratch (although there is a lot of that), it's that we don't eat or use products or ingredients derived from animals -- that's it, that's all it takes.
The best part about discussions that tangentially touch on vegan issues is that we just can't win: Either we're hippie-dippie cud chewers who subsist entirely on comestibles commonly reserved for ruminants (like, say, a raw kale salad with radish, fennel, and almonds *stomach grumbles*), or we're hypocritical flagellants for occasionally grabbing some faux meat stirfry takeout or popping a bag of Gardein tenders into the oven so we can get some effectively zero-prep protein into our gaping maws. How can we ever get it right? Is the privilege of obtaining and consuming chemical-laden, highly-processed convenience food intended to be reserved for people who eat animals? Because I can't find any fine print about it on my Insufferable Vegan card...
posted by divined by radio at 11:32 AM on December 3, 2014 [5 favorites]
For sure, but I just want to clarify that there's nothing about being vegan that says you need to (or even that you should) cook all of your food from scratch, and when I want a damn [veggie] burger, it isn't because I'm having any kind of problem with my diet, it's just because I'm a person and people have food cravings.
Yeah, that's actually pretty much exactly what I was saying.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:34 AM on December 3, 2014
Yeah, that's actually pretty much exactly what I was saying.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:34 AM on December 3, 2014
You know there are millions of self-proclaimed environmentalist omnivores who do the same thing, though -- I'm just curious why they don't warrant the same accusations of hypocrisy.
I never said they didn't.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:01 PM on December 3, 2014
I never said they didn't.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:01 PM on December 3, 2014
As far as I'm concerned, the milky swill that the Brits deign to call their national drink is as much of a "tea" as any lavender hibiscus flower power infusion. Drink it straight or go home!
I'll drink a fine green tea straight - the second and third pots are quite good. (And one green tea I even ate like a salad when done! Yum). But when I'm drinking my over brewed tanniny stew, I have to have my milk or it will dissolve the spoon.
posted by jb at 8:18 PM on December 3, 2014
I'll drink a fine green tea straight - the second and third pots are quite good. (And one green tea I even ate like a salad when done! Yum). But when I'm drinking my over brewed tanniny stew, I have to have my milk or it will dissolve the spoon.
posted by jb at 8:18 PM on December 3, 2014
Wow, this went REALLY far afield.
This turning in to some weird referendum on vegans is really bizarre. It's like taking the opportunity to slag on cyclists in general when a few people were poking fun at the ridiculousness of dudes who dress up like they're gents from the 1800s and ride penny farthings, or the people a few years back who ranted about how much more "pure" the fixed gear experience was when 99% of the time it was just a fashion statement.
And this is the same thing, it's fine, but just admit it.
The jambha juice comment was a bit off point, but more on point is the fact that you can get a similar to superior experience buying a cheap to average-home-gadget priced juicer or a blendtec or something and doing this at home. This isn't like espresso where there's really a lot of technique, quality equipment, and precision required to make a proper drink. If you knew the ratios of what(and possibly when) they were throwing stuff into their drinks you could make a perfect replica at home.
It's kinda like how my boss brought her old countertop convection oven in to the office, and now with a little bit of prep i can make recipe photo/pintrest shot almost pornographic toasted sandwiches with ease.
My issue at least, besides that i hate woo and twee bullshit, is that they're grossly overcharging for something. Yea, this isn't coffee where you put 10 cents of beans(*this is assuming the shop roasts their own stuff, the margins on that are INSANE) into a 7 cent cup with another dime of milk(or not) and charge $4 for it, i know the ingredients aren't super dirt cheap. But it's still kind of highway robbery. I could forgive that sin if it was really good and their tagline was just "hey, it's really fucking good". I eat at questionably priced hipster-y shops fairly often because even if they cost a bit more than they should, it's often "we make this one $FOODITEM, we do it really well, there's only 3 things on our menu, they're all good".
There's just something dishonest about the new-agey "back to the roots of raw food that heals your body!" sell.
If you want to sell me a cup of good juice, just sell me a fucking cup of good juice.
posted by emptythought at 3:02 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
This turning in to some weird referendum on vegans is really bizarre. It's like taking the opportunity to slag on cyclists in general when a few people were poking fun at the ridiculousness of dudes who dress up like they're gents from the 1800s and ride penny farthings, or the people a few years back who ranted about how much more "pure" the fixed gear experience was when 99% of the time it was just a fashion statement.
And this is the same thing, it's fine, but just admit it.
The jambha juice comment was a bit off point, but more on point is the fact that you can get a similar to superior experience buying a cheap to average-home-gadget priced juicer or a blendtec or something and doing this at home. This isn't like espresso where there's really a lot of technique, quality equipment, and precision required to make a proper drink. If you knew the ratios of what(and possibly when) they were throwing stuff into their drinks you could make a perfect replica at home.
It's kinda like how my boss brought her old countertop convection oven in to the office, and now with a little bit of prep i can make recipe photo/pintrest shot almost pornographic toasted sandwiches with ease.
My issue at least, besides that i hate woo and twee bullshit, is that they're grossly overcharging for something. Yea, this isn't coffee where you put 10 cents of beans(*this is assuming the shop roasts their own stuff, the margins on that are INSANE) into a 7 cent cup with another dime of milk(or not) and charge $4 for it, i know the ingredients aren't super dirt cheap. But it's still kind of highway robbery. I could forgive that sin if it was really good and their tagline was just "hey, it's really fucking good". I eat at questionably priced hipster-y shops fairly often because even if they cost a bit more than they should, it's often "we make this one $FOODITEM, we do it really well, there's only 3 things on our menu, they're all good".
There's just something dishonest about the new-agey "back to the roots of raw food that heals your body!" sell.
If you want to sell me a cup of good juice, just sell me a fucking cup of good juice.
posted by emptythought at 3:02 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
or the people a few years back who ranted about how much more "pure" the fixed gear experience was when 99% of the time it was just a fashion statement
Since we're already off the rails in this thread, I submit that >99% of people slogging on fixed gear bikes have never ridden one more than one mile (or more likely not at all), and therefore don't know what they're talking about.
posted by exogenous at 4:24 AM on December 4, 2014
Since we're already off the rails in this thread, I submit that >99% of people slogging on fixed gear bikes have never ridden one more than one mile (or more likely not at all), and therefore don't know what they're talking about.
posted by exogenous at 4:24 AM on December 4, 2014
for the record, i rode one all day every day for years just because(the biked weighed like 15lbs! you could climb almost any hill in town seated on a pretty tall gear ratio without blowing your knees out or straining! in seattle! hills!), and my roommate rode almost the same setup on the same italian frame as a delivery guy.
i still think i'm on point with the "yea, it's fun, but the people who make it out to be a spiritual experience are idiots" as i was with the food thing.
just like the juice thing, or other food items that get tweed out it's fun and can be good, but at the point they take it to it has nothing to do with the actual experience and more what they're telling you the experience is, and the image of that experience.
It's almost a veblen good, but the currency is image.
posted by emptythought at 4:38 AM on December 4, 2014
i still think i'm on point with the "yea, it's fun, but the people who make it out to be a spiritual experience are idiots" as i was with the food thing.
just like the juice thing, or other food items that get tweed out it's fun and can be good, but at the point they take it to it has nothing to do with the actual experience and more what they're telling you the experience is, and the image of that experience.
It's almost a veblen good, but the currency is image.
posted by emptythought at 4:38 AM on December 4, 2014
But when I'm drinking my over brewed tanniny stew, I have to have my milk or it will dissolve the spoon.
Maybe I'm a weirdo but I love strong black tea with no milk. The way the tannins make my mouth pucker makes it feel like I'm alive! (Also milk leaves a nasty taste in my mouth these days - I think my oral flora is just like "HOLY SHIT LACTOSE YOU GUYS" and 10 seconds later my mouth tastes like baby vomit. Plain black tea makes my mouth actually feel cleaner afterwards.) YMMV, obvi.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:59 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Maybe I'm a weirdo but I love strong black tea with no milk. The way the tannins make my mouth pucker makes it feel like I'm alive! (Also milk leaves a nasty taste in my mouth these days - I think my oral flora is just like "HOLY SHIT LACTOSE YOU GUYS" and 10 seconds later my mouth tastes like baby vomit. Plain black tea makes my mouth actually feel cleaner afterwards.) YMMV, obvi.
posted by en forme de poire at 12:59 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
This thread has been all overbrewing teas and overthinking Teeze.
posted by Juliet Banana at 8:44 AM on December 5, 2014
posted by Juliet Banana at 8:44 AM on December 5, 2014
Teese is not that bad! But I was always discomfited by the tube shape it is packaged in.
posted by Kitteh at 9:05 AM on December 5, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 9:05 AM on December 5, 2014
Teese is probably one of the few non-sausage products that come in a chub.
posted by Juliet Banana at 9:16 AM on December 6, 2014
posted by Juliet Banana at 9:16 AM on December 6, 2014
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