The Noise and How to Bring It
February 4, 2015 6:30 AM Subscribe
The Quietus interviews Hank Shocklee on hip-hop production team The Bomb Squad and Public Enemy's legendary sound
I've got a big jazz background and listening to a lot of jazz records I got an understanding of how you can be eclectic, in terms of your musical scales. You could create melodies and rhythms that were atonal. It didn't necessarily have any real tone but the tone would be determined by what you layered on top of it. So, for example, because Chuck has this kind of baritone voice, Chuck becomes the melody, and the track becomes the accompaniment. If you take a Billie Holiday record, and a Public Enemy record, in a way they are very similar. This is where it gets crazy. And Flav, well basically Flav is a tenor. I read a Clive Davis interview. And to me, Clive is one of the greatest producers of all time. And he said something that was cool, he said the artist always has to be the star, and sound like a star. And the beautiful thing about the Public Enemy records is, Chuck and Flavor provide the melody, on all the records.
Great article! I like reading about the thoughts of the people "behind the scenes" of great LPs. I also didn't know they were big in the UK before getting big at home.
posted by Renoroc at 7:19 AM on February 4, 2015
posted by Renoroc at 7:19 AM on February 4, 2015
It was never a hip hop group, so to speak. We thought of it like a rock and roll band. Just one that lived in the hip hop world.
Words I never thought I'd see...
Great interview! I do wish he'd talked more about Muse-Sick In Our Mess-Age. I think that's the most musically creative Public Enemy record, and therefore the most interesting hip-hop record of all time.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 7:30 AM on February 4, 2015
Words I never thought I'd see...
Great interview! I do wish he'd talked more about Muse-Sick In Our Mess-Age. I think that's the most musically creative Public Enemy record, and therefore the most interesting hip-hop record of all time.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 7:30 AM on February 4, 2015
Nation of Millions now queued; it's been far too long.
posted by Slothrup at 7:35 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Slothrup at 7:35 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cool interview.
One of the records I thought was really cool recently was the My Bloody Valentine record. Dope. It stayed true to what it was. And that shows you don't have to be on this commercial timeline of putting out a record every year.
Word.
posted by chillmost at 7:35 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the records I thought was really cool recently was the My Bloody Valentine record. Dope. It stayed true to what it was. And that shows you don't have to be on this commercial timeline of putting out a record every year.
Word.
posted by chillmost at 7:35 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was never a hip hop group, so to speak. We thought of it like a rock and roll band. Just one that lived in the hip hop world.
Words I never thought I'd see...
Don't forget that Reverend Run of Run DMC called himself the "King of Rock." Rappers used to brag about how they were as big and bad as rock 'n' roll. Now they brag about how they have replaced rock 'n' roll.
posted by jonp72 at 7:39 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Words I never thought I'd see...
Don't forget that Reverend Run of Run DMC called himself the "King of Rock." Rappers used to brag about how they were as big and bad as rock 'n' roll. Now they brag about how they have replaced rock 'n' roll.
posted by jonp72 at 7:39 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I didn't really appreciate his contribution to PE
Man he's what got me hooked immediately. I was like 10 years old, a Canadian suburban kid, and Nation of Millions just blew my mind. I loved Chuck and Flav's vocals too, but really, I had no idea what they were talking about. How would I? At that age and in that place, I was so far removed from what they were talking about. It was really all about the energy and that aggressive, chaotic, screeching, bumping funk behind them for me.
Incidentally, Chuck and Flav are a big part of why I never really appreciated Ultramagnetic back then. Ced Gee and Kool Keith just seemed like a discount Chuck and Flav, and their beats seemed comparatively old school (not a cool thing to be at the time). In retrospect they were doing something different from PE that 10-year-old me didn't pick up on, and Keith and Flav is not even close to a fair comparison, but I digress.
posted by Hoopo at 8:23 AM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Man he's what got me hooked immediately. I was like 10 years old, a Canadian suburban kid, and Nation of Millions just blew my mind. I loved Chuck and Flav's vocals too, but really, I had no idea what they were talking about. How would I? At that age and in that place, I was so far removed from what they were talking about. It was really all about the energy and that aggressive, chaotic, screeching, bumping funk behind them for me.
Incidentally, Chuck and Flav are a big part of why I never really appreciated Ultramagnetic back then. Ced Gee and Kool Keith just seemed like a discount Chuck and Flav, and their beats seemed comparatively old school (not a cool thing to be at the time). In retrospect they were doing something different from PE that 10-year-old me didn't pick up on, and Keith and Flav is not even close to a fair comparison, but I digress.
posted by Hoopo at 8:23 AM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
The 33 1/3 books are really hit-or-miss, but the one about Nation of Millions is (like this interview) pretty great. If you're in NYC, they have a pile of the 33 1/3 books at the Library for the Performing Arts.
We should do books on this stuff [laughs].
I would read those books!
posted by Drab_Parts at 8:38 AM on February 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
We should do books on this stuff [laughs].
I would read those books!
posted by Drab_Parts at 8:38 AM on February 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would read those books!
That was my thought, too. Write the books! Write the books! I did think the bit about uncleared samples was interesting — at this point, Shocklee wouldn't want to go through and dissect all of the samples that make up a given backing track because there's a chance he would alert some litigious artist who hadn't realized they were buried in the mix and would then come after him! So he'd presumably tread cautiously in a book-length deconstruction of the sound ...
I was like 10 years old, a Canadian suburban kid, and Nation of Millions just blew my mind.
Yeah, I was in college by the time this was happening, but it still sounded pretty alien to me, in the context of hip-hop as well as pretty much any other pop music ever. My friends at the time were into prog-rock and the Joy Division branch of the post-punk family tree and when I started listening to Public Enemy it turned out to be my portal into a lot of the adventurous-sounding and heavily sampled hip-hop music of the time. My buddies were just baffled that I would listen to that stuff so intently, let alone spend money on the CDs. I mean, I was buying albums by Peter Murphy, Depeche Mode, and The Cure, too. But I was also realizing that Public Enemy was more of a great rock and roll band than any of those guys.
posted by Mothlight at 9:08 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
That was my thought, too. Write the books! Write the books! I did think the bit about uncleared samples was interesting — at this point, Shocklee wouldn't want to go through and dissect all of the samples that make up a given backing track because there's a chance he would alert some litigious artist who hadn't realized they were buried in the mix and would then come after him! So he'd presumably tread cautiously in a book-length deconstruction of the sound ...
I was like 10 years old, a Canadian suburban kid, and Nation of Millions just blew my mind.
Yeah, I was in college by the time this was happening, but it still sounded pretty alien to me, in the context of hip-hop as well as pretty much any other pop music ever. My friends at the time were into prog-rock and the Joy Division branch of the post-punk family tree and when I started listening to Public Enemy it turned out to be my portal into a lot of the adventurous-sounding and heavily sampled hip-hop music of the time. My buddies were just baffled that I would listen to that stuff so intently, let alone spend money on the CDs. I mean, I was buying albums by Peter Murphy, Depeche Mode, and The Cure, too. But I was also realizing that Public Enemy was more of a great rock and roll band than any of those guys.
posted by Mothlight at 9:08 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wow, this is a great interview.
I saw PE live about a year ago and was completely knocked on my ass by their live show, which was a really pleasant surprise. I was worried they'd be old and coasting, and that was emphatically not the case. I was also really surprised to learn that Flav's a really ass-kicking drummer when he wants to be.
My only beef with latter-day Public Enemy: the S1Ws look kind of dumpy in modern fatigues. Should've stuck with the classics. Oh well.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 9:29 AM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I saw PE live about a year ago and was completely knocked on my ass by their live show, which was a really pleasant surprise. I was worried they'd be old and coasting, and that was emphatically not the case. I was also really surprised to learn that Flav's a really ass-kicking drummer when he wants to be.
My only beef with latter-day Public Enemy: the S1Ws look kind of dumpy in modern fatigues. Should've stuck with the classics. Oh well.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 9:29 AM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was also really surprised to learn that Flav's a really ass-kicking drummer when he wants to be.
Was that what they were talking about? I sort of assumed he was hitting pads or keys on a Korg or SP-12 or whatever they were using back then.
posted by Hoopo at 9:58 AM on February 4, 2015
Was that what they were talking about? I sort of assumed he was hitting pads or keys on a Korg or SP-12 or whatever they were using back then.
posted by Hoopo at 9:58 AM on February 4, 2015
I don't know if he's ever playing drums on recordings; my guess would be that he's not, unless it's just here or there in some corner of the discography. But for this live setup at least, they had a live drumset, bass, and guitar onstage splitting the backing with DJed / playback stuff. At a couple of points in the show Flav strolled from the front of the stage back to the set, gestured the drummer away, and sat down and just tore it up. Had no idea he had it in him.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:05 AM on February 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 10:05 AM on February 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was like 10 years old, a Canadian suburban kid, and Nation of Millions just blew my mind.
When Nation of Millions came out, most rap that suburban white kids had been exposed to was novelty rap a la "Parent's Just Don't Understand." When one of my classmates waved the cassette at me and said, "Jon, this ain't no happy rap," you knew you were in for the real deal.
posted by jonp72 at 10:58 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
When Nation of Millions came out, most rap that suburban white kids had been exposed to was novelty rap a la "Parent's Just Don't Understand." When one of my classmates waved the cassette at me and said, "Jon, this ain't no happy rap," you knew you were in for the real deal.
posted by jonp72 at 10:58 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
PE were, like in the UK, very big here in Holland. I personally still love their first album the best. The music and raps seem even more intense by the minimalism of it all. I know their signature sound is the full-on thing but although I liked it I also found it a bit too much for my tastes. I've always preferred a bit of space in my music but of course, it's a personal thing.
Saw them live in 88 or thereabouts in a big ice-hockey hall in the provinces. Acoustics were very bad, we all thought it was a shame they couldn't get programmed in a more suitable venue.
Good to hear more from Hank Shocklee (I also watched the BBC doc last week). The combi of him and Chuck was unsurpassed on a musical level and now I'm understanding a bit better why that is. Two of my personal heroes, that's for sure.
posted by Kosmob0t at 11:08 AM on February 4, 2015
Saw them live in 88 or thereabouts in a big ice-hockey hall in the provinces. Acoustics were very bad, we all thought it was a shame they couldn't get programmed in a more suitable venue.
Good to hear more from Hank Shocklee (I also watched the BBC doc last week). The combi of him and Chuck was unsurpassed on a musical level and now I'm understanding a bit better why that is. Two of my personal heroes, that's for sure.
posted by Kosmob0t at 11:08 AM on February 4, 2015
When Nation of Millions came out, most rap that suburban white kids had been exposed to was novelty rap a la "Parent's Just Don't Understand."
I think in Canada at least, a lot of it came to us at the same time via a MuchMusic show, RapCity (not the same as the MTV show), in 1989. Fresh Prince, Run DMC, BDP, Ice-T, Schooly D, Kool Moe D...it hit a lot of us at the same time. Also Maestro Fresh Wes. You Americans missed out on that guy, Symphony in Full Effect was a pretty great album of that era.
posted by Hoopo at 11:16 AM on February 4, 2015
I think in Canada at least, a lot of it came to us at the same time via a MuchMusic show, RapCity (not the same as the MTV show), in 1989. Fresh Prince, Run DMC, BDP, Ice-T, Schooly D, Kool Moe D...it hit a lot of us at the same time. Also Maestro Fresh Wes. You Americans missed out on that guy, Symphony in Full Effect was a pretty great album of that era.
posted by Hoopo at 11:16 AM on February 4, 2015
When Nation of Millions came out, most rap that suburban white kids had been exposed to was novelty rap
I'm not sure that's true for anyone who bought the album. I was 11 living in Rhode Island and we'd been listening to hip hop for 3 years with a fair bit of "real" artists in the mix. The opening track of this album is still my gold standard for having my mind blown by music. I'm always a little wistful when I listen to it now that the "BASS! How low can you go?" doesn't blow me out the door the way I remember it the first time.
Nothing will ever be that album again. But I'm glad I got the experience once.
posted by yerfatma at 12:00 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure that's true for anyone who bought the album. I was 11 living in Rhode Island and we'd been listening to hip hop for 3 years with a fair bit of "real" artists in the mix. The opening track of this album is still my gold standard for having my mind blown by music. I'm always a little wistful when I listen to it now that the "BASS! How low can you go?" doesn't blow me out the door the way I remember it the first time.
Nothing will ever be that album again. But I'm glad I got the experience once.
posted by yerfatma at 12:00 PM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I saw PE live about a year ago and was completely knocked on my ass by their live show, which was a really pleasant surprise.
Yeah, I had the same experience. I've seen PE twice, and Chuck D once, in the last four years, and I've been stunned at what a good live show it is. A lot of great hip-hop acts aren't much live, but PE has always really committed to the show.
Flav is underrated (even by Shocklee) as a musician. Chuck D is a great percussionist (that is, rapper), but even on the first album, Too Much Posse made clear that Flav was the real musician of the crew. No rappers before, and few since, have his knack for slipping and sliding around a beat, like a tightrope walker pretending to be drunk.
And what the hell, here's my personal favorite musical moment from the whole crew.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 12:08 PM on February 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I had the same experience. I've seen PE twice, and Chuck D once, in the last four years, and I've been stunned at what a good live show it is. A lot of great hip-hop acts aren't much live, but PE has always really committed to the show.
Flav is underrated (even by Shocklee) as a musician. Chuck D is a great percussionist (that is, rapper), but even on the first album, Too Much Posse made clear that Flav was the real musician of the crew. No rappers before, and few since, have his knack for slipping and sliding around a beat, like a tightrope walker pretending to be drunk.
And what the hell, here's my personal favorite musical moment from the whole crew.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 12:08 PM on February 4, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here is Mr Shocklee being interviewed at the Red Bull Music Academy.
posted by Grangousier at 12:56 PM on February 4, 2015
posted by Grangousier at 12:56 PM on February 4, 2015
Flavor Flav for all of his pan man clownishness and personal problems is a multi-instrumentalist in his own right and for sure deserving of the same credit for PE's staggering contributions as Chuck and Hank.
Public Enemy holds the same place in my heart as the Clash, political, musical, cultural talismans. The whole so much greater than the sum of the parts.
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:52 PM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Public Enemy holds the same place in my heart as the Clash, political, musical, cultural talismans. The whole so much greater than the sum of the parts.
posted by Divine_Wino at 4:52 PM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Man, I still pull out my PE/Megadeth EP now and then. Definitely a wall of noise tuned for the club. I used it once to prove to some asshole neighbours that, yes, we can hear your music.
posted by clvrmnky at 5:38 PM on February 4, 2015
posted by clvrmnky at 5:38 PM on February 4, 2015
wow, this is an especially good interview. I liked what shocklee said about the need to always be writing, so that aa record just becomes a selection.
posted by eustatic at 5:53 AM on February 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 5:53 AM on February 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Flavour Flav is actually a legit musical genius, like can play lots of instruments expertly. It may not be reflected in his hype man work, but don't be fooled.
posted by fido~depravo at 1:34 PM on February 5, 2015
posted by fido~depravo at 1:34 PM on February 5, 2015
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I didn't really appreciate his contribution to PE, but he was a sharp guy in the interview and I wanted to know more.
posted by C.A.S. at 7:17 AM on February 4, 2015 [1 favorite]