well-written instruction manual & large, folded color map 🌏
March 11, 2015 9:11 AM Subscribe
"Some games make an enormous impact on you when you play them, and time and technology do little to diminish that impact. I feel that way about quite a few games: Elite, Super Mario Bros, and The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time are three that immediately come to mind. Secret of Mana is without question a fourth."
A discussion of the pros and cons of Secret of Mana at Pixels or Death: RPG Club Plays Secret of Mana: It's Dangerous to Go Alone. Snippet: "Secret of Mana has… the nineties. In their most intense, cliched form. Which sounds appealing–I love the nineties!–until I remember I like the things that twisted the prevailing aesthetic, not the ones that used it whole-hog."
Previously: A grown-ass man replays Final Fantasy VII
A discussion of the pros and cons of Secret of Mana at Pixels or Death: RPG Club Plays Secret of Mana: It's Dangerous to Go Alone. Snippet: "Secret of Mana has… the nineties. In their most intense, cliched form. Which sounds appealing–I love the nineties!–until I remember I like the things that twisted the prevailing aesthetic, not the ones that used it whole-hog."
Previously: A grown-ass man replays Final Fantasy VII
(Remember when you had a solve a puzzle by looking for the room where your hair moved cause there was a breeze from a hidden door?)
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
The one nitpick I have with the piece is how they gloss over the initial connection between the Mana and Final Fantasy franchises - the original Mana game was presented as a FF gaiden game even in Japan, and had a lot of FF trappings (e.g. you would travel the world on a chocobo, and one of the more annoying status effects turned you into a defenseless moogle.) When they did the updated remake, Sword of Mana, they actually excised all those elements and replaced them with the Mana equivalents (which actually altered the gameplay quite a bit, as Cannon Travel isn't quite as convenient as riding chocoboback.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:25 AM on March 11, 2015
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:25 AM on March 11, 2015
Secret of Mana is the game that convinced me games would be worth paying attention to. Hiroki Kikuta's beautifully haunting music, Hiroo Isono's romantically intricate art style, the fact that it had a story with actual plots and characters (which, probably, haven't aged well) and an evocative atmosphere of mystery and wonder (which, probably...has aged well)... It's a lovely game. The series still has a big place in my heart.
Legend of Mana is my favorite, though; mostly for the reasons Tom gives here. It has a stronger atmosphere, it has a more coherent (but also more wildly creative) world, it really runs with the mystery and the exploration, the gameplay is actually a joy of relaxed, total freedom, the setting and characters are among the most unique in and out of games, the art direction is perfect, the writing is surprisingly very high quality... LoM is one of possibly two videogames I'd describe as "wise" without needing to laugh immediately after; a lot of Japanese games from the same period incorporate philosophy into their writing, and I have almost nothing but positive feelings for that style but LoM really set the bar a lot higher than anyone else has thought to look, even now.
I'm rambling. I love these games. Another thing to look at: Spectrum of Mana, a huge cover album. Nothing (except for a very small handful of covers) has ever really recaptured the sound of this game for me; I think it's one of those 16-bit games where the limited hardware is essential to the feeling it evokes. But the compositions themselves are still really good, and it's great to hear different interpretations.
Also I like Reid McCarter.
posted by byanyothername at 9:26 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Legend of Mana is my favorite, though; mostly for the reasons Tom gives here. It has a stronger atmosphere, it has a more coherent (but also more wildly creative) world, it really runs with the mystery and the exploration, the gameplay is actually a joy of relaxed, total freedom, the setting and characters are among the most unique in and out of games, the art direction is perfect, the writing is surprisingly very high quality... LoM is one of possibly two videogames I'd describe as "wise" without needing to laugh immediately after; a lot of Japanese games from the same period incorporate philosophy into their writing, and I have almost nothing but positive feelings for that style but LoM really set the bar a lot higher than anyone else has thought to look, even now.
I'm rambling. I love these games. Another thing to look at: Spectrum of Mana, a huge cover album. Nothing (except for a very small handful of covers) has ever really recaptured the sound of this game for me; I think it's one of those 16-bit games where the limited hardware is essential to the feeling it evokes. But the compositions themselves are still really good, and it's great to hear different interpretations.
Also I like Reid McCarter.
posted by byanyothername at 9:26 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Remember when you had a solve a puzzle by looking for the room where your hair moved cause there was a breeze from a hidden door?
That's Illusion of Gaia, which is another, very similar, 16-bit RPG I have Very Strong Feelings about.
posted by byanyothername at 9:29 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's Illusion of Gaia, which is another, very similar, 16-bit RPG I have Very Strong Feelings about.
posted by byanyothername at 9:29 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
Secret of Mana was the first game I ever played (or even saw played) on a SNES. It was so much more beautiful than any video game I had ever seen that it seemed like a transmission from the future.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
16-bit RPG I have Very Strong Feelings about.
Illusion of Gaia, Secret of Mana and Terranigma.
A holy trinity of RPGs from that time-period.
posted by Fizz at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Illusion of Gaia, Secret of Mana and Terranigma.
A holy trinity of RPGs from that time-period.
posted by Fizz at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ahhh yes. It's the similar hair sprites.
They all kind run together after a point.
posted by The Whelk at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015
They all kind run together after a point.
posted by The Whelk at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015
That's Illusion of Gaia, which is another, very similar, 16-bit RPG I have Very Strong Feelings about.
Shame we never got the third game in that series in the US, as it's the best and most complex.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015
Shame we never got the third game in that series in the US, as it's the best and most complex.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:31 AM on March 11, 2015
Illusion of Gaia, Secret of Mana and Terranigma.
Soul Blazer is much simpler than those, but it still has a ton of charm.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:32 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Soul Blazer is much simpler than those, but it still has a ton of charm.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:32 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was a teenager babysitting for a 7 year old, and watching him play Ocarina of Time. I had no idea what the game was about, or how to play, but I knew I had to have it.
posted by triage_lazarus at 9:34 AM on March 11, 2015
posted by triage_lazarus at 9:34 AM on March 11, 2015
I have a love hate relationship with this game.
It was the first long RPG I ever finished. I won the last fight by the skin of my teeth, putting the AI characters in barrels to save on having to heal them. It was immensely satisfying. Then I saw the Nintendo Power that had pictures of the sequel, which supposedly was even better and longer and prettier. And it was coming out soon in the US!
The people at Nintendo Power were a bunch of fucking liars.
Then I got to have several decades of disappointment as Square made everything but a god damn normal sequel to the game. Here's a dungeon crawler with wonky physics for the DS! Here's a crappy action RPG with tiny levels and wonky physics! Here's an RTS! Here's a F2P game for phones! About the only game that got even close to the original was Legend of Mana. And that had more arcane mechanics (golem creation, gardening, animal husbandry, weapon forging) that added very little.
posted by zabuni at 9:35 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was the first long RPG I ever finished. I won the last fight by the skin of my teeth, putting the AI characters in barrels to save on having to heal them. It was immensely satisfying. Then I saw the Nintendo Power that had pictures of the sequel, which supposedly was even better and longer and prettier. And it was coming out soon in the US!
The people at Nintendo Power were a bunch of fucking liars.
Then I got to have several decades of disappointment as Square made everything but a god damn normal sequel to the game. Here's a dungeon crawler with wonky physics for the DS! Here's a crappy action RPG with tiny levels and wonky physics! Here's an RTS! Here's a F2P game for phones! About the only game that got even close to the original was Legend of Mana. And that had more arcane mechanics (golem creation, gardening, animal husbandry, weapon forging) that added very little.
posted by zabuni at 9:35 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Semi-related RPG question. Did the NES game Star Tropics ever come with a map or instructions? The game ended up in my collection second-hand and didn't really come in a box or anything.
posted by Fizz at 9:37 AM on March 11, 2015
posted by Fizz at 9:37 AM on March 11, 2015
Soul Blazer is much simpler than those, but it still has a ton of charm.
Which shouldn't be surprising, as it's the first game of the Quintet Trilogy (Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma being the second and third games, respectively.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2015
Which shouldn't be surprising, as it's the first game of the Quintet Trilogy (Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma being the second and third games, respectively.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2015
zabuni : Translated ROMs of Seiken Densetsu 3 are available from the usual suspects. Not that I would know anything about that.
retrogaming is killing the home console industry
posted by murphy slaw at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2015
retrogaming is killing the home console industry
posted by murphy slaw at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2015
1. Seiken Densetsu / Final Fantasy Adventure was a beautiful, perfect little game in itself. A Game Boy game that combined Zelda with RPG-style leveling up and a solid storyline of its own.
2. Seiken Densetsu II / Secret of Mana was a brilliant game, but I never played it through solo; my mom actually had bought it because she loved the Zelda games so much and this was in the same vein. Unfortunately it was the game that was in my Super Nintendo when someone broke into our house and stole my video game systems.
3. I did wind up playing it, but in 3-player mode several years later with some friends. I controlled the girl, which was fine by me. I was always disappointed that other RPGs weren't cooperative like Secret of Mana.
4. Seiken Densetsu III was on an advanced cartridge, and glitched like living hell on emulators in the late '90s. Plus the fan translations at the time were rough, and controlling the game with a keyboard was difficult to impossible, so I never actually got to play through it.
5. I could never get into the later Legend of Mana games.
posted by graymouser at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
2. Seiken Densetsu II / Secret of Mana was a brilliant game, but I never played it through solo; my mom actually had bought it because she loved the Zelda games so much and this was in the same vein. Unfortunately it was the game that was in my Super Nintendo when someone broke into our house and stole my video game systems.
3. I did wind up playing it, but in 3-player mode several years later with some friends. I controlled the girl, which was fine by me. I was always disappointed that other RPGs weren't cooperative like Secret of Mana.
4. Seiken Densetsu III was on an advanced cartridge, and glitched like living hell on emulators in the late '90s. Plus the fan translations at the time were rough, and controlling the game with a keyboard was difficult to impossible, so I never actually got to play through it.
5. I could never get into the later Legend of Mana games.
posted by graymouser at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately it was the game that was in my Super Nintendo when someone broke into our house and stole my video game systems.
Ouch...I feel this pain.
posted by Fizz at 9:40 AM on March 11, 2015
Ouch...I feel this pain.
posted by Fizz at 9:40 AM on March 11, 2015
zabuni : Translated ROMs of Seiken Densetsu 3 are available from the usual suspects. Not that I would know anything about that.
Oh that was the first thing I downloaded after downloading Zsnes, trust me. I'm still pissed they never came out with the game on any legitimate platform.
posted by zabuni at 9:41 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh that was the first thing I downloaded after downloading Zsnes, trust me. I'm still pissed they never came out with the game on any legitimate platform.
posted by zabuni at 9:41 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Thank you all for reminding my inner fifteen-year-old that Seiken Densetsu 3 never got a US release. I think I'll go dig up one of my old flannel shirts and cry into it.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:41 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:41 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately it was the game that was in my Super Nintendo when someone broke into our house and stole my video game systems.
Argh. My copy of Zelda: Skyward Sword was in my Wii when it was stolen by burglars.
Along with my save game, which was right before the last boss fight.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:43 AM on March 11, 2015
Argh. My copy of Zelda: Skyward Sword was in my Wii when it was stolen by burglars.
Along with my save game, which was right before the last boss fight.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:43 AM on March 11, 2015
Maps maps maps. MMORPGs started out under the ship stuff in a box method, and when I started the second one (EQ) I was SOOOOOOOOOOOO upset that the map for Kelethin was wrong. I kept falling out of trees.
Plus, I hate the fact that some poor tech writer out there was shut out by the team, writing from spec on a six-week pre-ship deadline that resembled nothing that actually shipped (which also presumably had a four- to six-week pre-ship deadline.
Now all the games come with a CD and 80MegaQuads of downloads. "Hey kids, here's a new game!" "Yay, daddy! Pop it in tonight and we can play it when the download is done tomorrow!"
But now it's flipping back to "Accurate hard copy" but at a price for the games.
And my kids save up for good manuals and maps to go with this new trend - they've never known anything else. The last birthday party we went to, our gift was a hard-cover limited edition of a strategy and how to play the game manual that had special downloadable content for folks who bought this special manual. (I just realised we are such a Nintendo-flavored household that I don't even know if anyone else does this.)
posted by tilde at 9:43 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Plus, I hate the fact that some poor tech writer out there was shut out by the team, writing from spec on a six-week pre-ship deadline that resembled nothing that actually shipped (which also presumably had a four- to six-week pre-ship deadline.
Now all the games come with a CD and 80MegaQuads of downloads. "Hey kids, here's a new game!" "Yay, daddy! Pop it in tonight and we can play it when the download is done tomorrow!"
But now it's flipping back to "Accurate hard copy" but at a price for the games.
And my kids save up for good manuals and maps to go with this new trend - they've never known anything else. The last birthday party we went to, our gift was a hard-cover limited edition of a strategy and how to play the game manual that had special downloadable content for folks who bought this special manual. (I just realised we are such a Nintendo-flavored household that I don't even know if anyone else does this.)
posted by tilde at 9:43 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Semi-related RPG question. Did the NES game Star Tropics ever come with a map or instructions? The game ended up in my collection second-hand and didn't really come in a box or anything.
It came with one of the most awesome feelies ever - a letter from your character's uncle! Why was that awesome? Well, halfway through the game, you have to input the frequency of your uncle's tracking beacon to continue, and you get the cryptic hint to "put the letter in water". Which meant taking the physical letter and soaking it, revealing a secret message with the frequency! The Virtual Console version is a pale imitation of this.
(The frequency is 747 MHz, by the way.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:43 AM on March 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
It came with one of the most awesome feelies ever - a letter from your character's uncle! Why was that awesome? Well, halfway through the game, you have to input the frequency of your uncle's tracking beacon to continue, and you get the cryptic hint to "put the letter in water". Which meant taking the physical letter and soaking it, revealing a secret message with the frequency! The Virtual Console version is a pale imitation of this.
(The frequency is 747 MHz, by the way.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:43 AM on March 11, 2015 [10 favorites]
Never could get into Secret of Mana, but Final Fantasy Adventure is one of my all-time favorite Gameboy games. It drives me nuts that Square hasn't released it for the 3DS Virtual Console, since I sold my old Gameboys and carts years ago.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:44 AM on March 11, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:44 AM on March 11, 2015
You can totally skip anything that doesn't appeal to you in Legend; and how arcane the mechanics are really depends on what you want out of them. It's possible to tinker in golem building and gardening and have fun/happy outcomes without needing to go full on stats-obsessive. I hate mechanics that become pure numbers games and time sinks, and loved LoM for not being that unless you want that. Even standard RPG fare is more or less skippable in that game if it's not your thing.
I remember it being poorly received back in The Day, but I think it was a matter of being about a decade too early. It's a 2D watercolor Skyrim set in a whimsical fantasy world that's more Pratchett/Gaiman than Tolkien/Martin. No one knew what to do with that in 2000.
The post-Squaresoft games look...well, they look great, visually, but... Yeah. Skip City, for me; I think they'd only break my heart. Dawn does have a very beautiful song by Ryuichi Sakamoto which fits into the series proper very well. Dunno how it ended up there.
Secret of Evermore I've never played, but it seems really good for what it is. The strongest criticism I've ever seen is that it's not Seiken Densetsu 3, which isn't really fair.
posted by byanyothername at 9:45 AM on March 11, 2015
I remember it being poorly received back in The Day, but I think it was a matter of being about a decade too early. It's a 2D watercolor Skyrim set in a whimsical fantasy world that's more Pratchett/Gaiman than Tolkien/Martin. No one knew what to do with that in 2000.
The post-Squaresoft games look...well, they look great, visually, but... Yeah. Skip City, for me; I think they'd only break my heart. Dawn does have a very beautiful song by Ryuichi Sakamoto which fits into the series proper very well. Dunno how it ended up there.
Secret of Evermore I've never played, but it seems really good for what it is. The strongest criticism I've ever seen is that it's not Seiken Densetsu 3, which isn't really fair.
posted by byanyothername at 9:45 AM on March 11, 2015
When I was a kid I somehow saved up $120 so I could buy Secret of Mana. That probably makes it the most expensive game I've ever purchased. I'm sure it shouldn't have cost that much, but it was a crappy store in a small town mall and they only had one copy. Anyway, that beautiful world was worth every penny.
posted by oulipian at 9:45 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by oulipian at 9:45 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Never could get into Secret of Mana
*hits Pope Guilty with Midge Mallet*
posted by oulipian at 9:46 AM on March 11, 2015
*hits Pope Guilty with Midge Mallet*
posted by oulipian at 9:46 AM on March 11, 2015
Which meant taking the physical letter and soaking it, revealing a secret message with the frequency!
!!!
This thread is feel good. Keep sharing RPG & video-game stories. Please.
posted by Fizz at 9:47 AM on March 11, 2015
!!!
This thread is feel good. Keep sharing RPG & video-game stories. Please.
posted by Fizz at 9:47 AM on March 11, 2015
Re: Star Tropics. I also never had a manual or maps for ST...I think my son traded Fester'sQuest (horrible!) for it. For a clunkily-controlled, not particularly beautiful, linear (but in which direction?) game, he and I had a blast finally getting to the end of that thing. We watched a youtube playthrough at Christmas (we all have different bonding moments) and I don't think we missed one secret. Awesomeness of gamery.
posted by umberto at 9:49 AM on March 11, 2015
posted by umberto at 9:49 AM on March 11, 2015
...and, of course, the lesser-known DDR hybrid spinoff, Zelda: Macarena of Time.
posted by markkraft at 9:50 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by markkraft at 9:50 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and speaking of maps, War In Middle Earth came with this map of Middle-Earth. See the coordinate markers around the edge? That's the copy protection. Thing is, you'll note that the grid's only around the outer edge, and when the game stops you to ask for a given landmark's grid reference, you had to first figure out where the hell it was and then figure out what square the developers felt that that landmark fell in. And that's a huge map, probably three feet across. That's unwieldy as an adult; it was moreso when I was 9 and not really reliably able to draw a straight line from one edge of a map nearly as tall as I was to the other with my finger.
Sweet map that looked great on my bedroom wall for years, though, once I tired of the game itself.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:51 AM on March 11, 2015
Sweet map that looked great on my bedroom wall for years, though, once I tired of the game itself.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:51 AM on March 11, 2015
Ha! The frequency code! It was scrawled on the actual game cartridge or we would never have gotten past that! Man, old gaming rocks.
posted by umberto at 9:55 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by umberto at 9:55 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Secret of Evermore I've never played, but it seems really good for what it is. The strongest criticism I've ever seen is that it's not Seiken Densetsu 3, which isn't really fair.
I feel like the only person in the world who liked Secret of Evermore. It didn't have the same spirit as Mana and felt a bit unfinished, but it was enjoyable. I kinda want to give that game a hug and tell it "you tried, son."
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:02 AM on March 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
I feel like the only person in the world who liked Secret of Evermore. It didn't have the same spirit as Mana and felt a bit unfinished, but it was enjoyable. I kinda want to give that game a hug and tell it "you tried, son."
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:02 AM on March 11, 2015 [5 favorites]
The soundtrack to this thread.
I feel like the only person in the world who liked Secret of Evermore
Someone else likes SoE! When my family rented it I thought it was awesome but I didn't get very far before I had to return it. So even though I really liked what I saw I have nothing to add except the alchemy thing was cool.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:07 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like the only person in the world who liked Secret of Evermore
Someone else likes SoE! When my family rented it I thought it was awesome but I didn't get very far before I had to return it. So even though I really liked what I saw I have nothing to add except the alchemy thing was cool.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 10:07 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I feel like the only person in the world who liked Secret of Evermore. It didn't have the same spirit as Mana and felt a bit unfinished, but it was enjoyable. I kinda want to give that game a hug and tell it "you tried, son."
It was also Squeenix's first attempt at aiming at the Western market specifically, both in theme and in development. So it deserves credit for that alone.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:08 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was also Squeenix's first attempt at aiming at the Western market specifically, both in theme and in development. So it deserves credit for that alone.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:08 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ha! The frequency code! It was scrawled on the actual game cartridge or we would never have gotten past that! Man, old gaming rocks.
They printed the frequency in Nintendo Power because people were losing the letter.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:10 AM on March 11, 2015
They printed the frequency in Nintendo Power because people were losing the letter.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:10 AM on March 11, 2015
That's Numberwang and I were just talking about Legend of Mana the other day. Such an adorable title.
"I got potion!"
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:11 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I got potion!"
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:11 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I discovered both SD3 and Terranigma through the dark magic of emulation (neither game had a NA release) and they make up two out of three of my all time favorite SNES games. (The third being Chrono Trigger)
PC games used to come with great printed extras... I bought a game that came with a short story once, and a fair number of games had little world sourcebooks (particularly Origin games IIRC)
Which shouldn't be surprising, as it's the first game of the Quintet Trilogy
Hmmm... no, I'm afraid I can't allow these words to sit next to one another.
posted by selfnoise at 10:13 AM on March 11, 2015
PC games used to come with great printed extras... I bought a game that came with a short story once, and a fair number of games had little world sourcebooks (particularly Origin games IIRC)
Which shouldn't be surprising, as it's the first game of the Quintet Trilogy
Hmmm... no, I'm afraid I can't allow these words to sit next to one another.
posted by selfnoise at 10:13 AM on March 11, 2015
Evermore was the only game developed entirely by Squaresoft US, IIRC. Parasite Eve and Final Fantasy IX were partly-US, but Evermore was the big chance. It's a shame it was marketed as a Mana thing; that's probably all that worked against it.
I draw a big bold line between Squaresoft and Square-Enix.
And some see it as a Quintet tetralogy. If that helps. It probably doesn't.
I will shush now.
posted by byanyothername at 10:13 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I draw a big bold line between Squaresoft and Square-Enix.
And some see it as a Quintet tetralogy. If that helps. It probably doesn't.
I will shush now.
posted by byanyothername at 10:13 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I love Steam and digital downloads, but I do miss the days of full color illustrated 100 page physical manuals and fold-out world maps.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:13 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:13 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
You can totally skip anything that doesn't appeal to you in Legend; and how arcane the mechanics are really depends on what you want out of them. It's possible to tinker in golem building and gardening and have fun/happy outcomes without needing to go full on stats-obsessive. I hate mechanics that become pure numbers games and time sinks, and loved LoM for not being that unless you want that. Even standard RPG fare is more or less skippable in that game if it's not your thing.
It was there superfluousness matched with how arcane the mechanics are that got me. There is a 160K faq on tempering weapons alone, and yet you can complete the game on normal difficulty using the sword you start out the game with. They seemed very lovely systems that didn't really matter, as who cares if you overkill something by 100 or 1000 points?
The plotline(s) were great though. Just series of vignettes about the various parts of the world. I remember when it, Chrono Cross, and Threads of Fate came out in the US one right after the other. Just a bunch of weird games that had the polish and visuals of a major studio. You don't see those types of games these days.
posted by zabuni at 10:15 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
It was there superfluousness matched with how arcane the mechanics are that got me. There is a 160K faq on tempering weapons alone, and yet you can complete the game on normal difficulty using the sword you start out the game with. They seemed very lovely systems that didn't really matter, as who cares if you overkill something by 100 or 1000 points?
The plotline(s) were great though. Just series of vignettes about the various parts of the world. I remember when it, Chrono Cross, and Threads of Fate came out in the US one right after the other. Just a bunch of weird games that had the polish and visuals of a major studio. You don't see those types of games these days.
posted by zabuni at 10:15 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
As far as Secret of Mana, I'd also have to give a shout out to the strategy guide, which was written as the narrative of the story, making it fun to read back in the day.
posted by zabuni at 10:18 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by zabuni at 10:18 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
They seemed very lovely systems that didn't really matter, as who cares if you overkill something by 100 or 1000 points?
You really don't understand the principle of "there is no kill like overkill", then. There is a certain visceral...joy in pulping a boss in one blow.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:20 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
You really don't understand the principle of "there is no kill like overkill", then. There is a certain visceral...joy in pulping a boss in one blow.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:20 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Secret of Mana was my very first RPG as a kid and so will always hold a special place in my heart next to Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI.
Secret of Evermore was fun overall. The graphics were compelling, all the squishing and splatting sound effects were perfect for the age I was at, and the alchemy mechanics were fairly novel.
Illusion of Gaia was awesome as well. Though I remember never fully understanding the plot and hating the vampires with a passion.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:40 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Secret of Evermore was fun overall. The graphics were compelling, all the squishing and splatting sound effects were perfect for the age I was at, and the alchemy mechanics were fairly novel.
Illusion of Gaia was awesome as well. Though I remember never fully understanding the plot and hating the vampires with a passion.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:40 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Never could get into Secret of Mana, but Final Fantasy Adventure is one of my all-time favorite Gameboy games.
Same here - Adventure, Legend, Legend II, and Tactics Advance are my Top Gameboy Games. This thread twigged my nostalgia so I looked up Adventure's Wikipedia page. There, I saw that RPGamer gave it a 3/5 and I audibly said, "Fuck you!" to my computer screen so now I either have to fess up that I'm goofing off at work to my assistant or keep up the facade that I'm really mad at her.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:47 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Same here - Adventure, Legend, Legend II, and Tactics Advance are my Top Gameboy Games. This thread twigged my nostalgia so I looked up Adventure's Wikipedia page. There, I saw that RPGamer gave it a 3/5 and I audibly said, "Fuck you!" to my computer screen so now I either have to fess up that I'm goofing off at work to my assistant or keep up the facade that I'm really mad at her.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:47 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Every so often the StarTropics theme song will pop into my head. Great game.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:58 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:58 AM on March 11, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is anybody still making good top-down/isometric RPGs?
Tales of Game's and Zeboyd are, but their output is more homage/pastiche.
Pier Solar was released as a Genesis cartridge (!) in 2010(!!) but is now out for multiple platforms, including Steam.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:20 AM on March 11, 2015
Tales of Game's and Zeboyd are, but their output is more homage/pastiche.
Pier Solar was released as a Genesis cartridge (!) in 2010(!!) but is now out for multiple platforms, including Steam.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:20 AM on March 11, 2015
I missed out on the golden age of SNES RPGs. I've tried to go back and play Secret of Mana once or twice and just could never get into it. Same with Final Fantasy. Maybe it's the J part of the JRPG, I dunno, but I feel dumb for not getting these games.
The JPRG that I did take to was Chrono Trigger. It helped I played through with a group discussing the game, sharing the experience makes it so much more fun. Coincidentally today is Chrono Trigger's 20th birthday. Really is a masterful game.
posted by Nelson at 11:26 AM on March 11, 2015
The JPRG that I did take to was Chrono Trigger. It helped I played through with a group discussing the game, sharing the experience makes it so much more fun. Coincidentally today is Chrono Trigger's 20th birthday. Really is a masterful game.
posted by Nelson at 11:26 AM on March 11, 2015
Same here - Adventure, Legend, Legend II, and Tactics Advance are my Top Gameboy Games.
Loved Tactics Advance so much (but the Law system can burn in turd hell).
posted by murphy slaw at 11:26 AM on March 11, 2015
Loved Tactics Advance so much (but the Law system can burn in turd hell).
posted by murphy slaw at 11:26 AM on March 11, 2015
Coincidentally today is Chrono Trigger's 20th birthday. Really is a masterful game.
"Ready to feel old? Children born after Lavos destroyed the world in 1999 AD are now old enough to drive "
posted by murphy slaw at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Ready to feel old? Children born after Lavos destroyed the world in 1999 AD are now old enough to drive "
posted by murphy slaw at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Legend of Mana is my favorite of the Mana franchise as well. I always think of it as a MUD. Lots of random areas that connect to each other in weird ways, little quests and plotlines, lots of random battling. The systems are ENTIRELY too arcane, and though I've spent hundreds of hours playing it over years, I don't bother with the crazy tempering and whatnot.
And yeah, LOM came out at kind of an amazing time. That was Square's "Summer of Adventure" or something. LOM, Chrono Cross, Threads of Fate, Vagrant Story, Front Mission 3.
(if someone makes a post about VS it will just be 10000 comments of me, talking about how much I still like it)
posted by curious nu at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
And yeah, LOM came out at kind of an amazing time. That was Square's "Summer of Adventure" or something. LOM, Chrono Cross, Threads of Fate, Vagrant Story, Front Mission 3.
(if someone makes a post about VS it will just be 10000 comments of me, talking about how much I still like it)
posted by curious nu at 11:28 AM on March 11, 2015 [4 favorites]
There is a certain visceral...joy in pulping a boss in one blow.
For me this feeling was best expressed by the SmaaaAAAASSHH!!! graphic in Earthbound.
When I was 11, rented a game that I thought was Top Gear 2000, but someone had switched the sticker on the cart (badly) and what I actually had was Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. I had no idea what the hell I was playing at first; I just opened up the save game and found myself as a helpless pink bunny in some insane monster-filled world. We returned it to the store and I got something else. But that image stuck with me pretty hard and I ended up getting Zelda for Christmas a few months later.
When I was 12 I used to go to my friend's house and watch him play Phantasy Star IV and Shining Force on his Sega. Man, those games looked so crazy-cool to me. They kind of intimidated me, actually. I felt safer with my Zelda.
Then when I was 13 we moved...and that Summer I discovered Chrono Trigger. Borrowed it from the neighbor girl. It had been her brother's. He was away at college and she said he wouldn't mind if I borrowed it. I didn't leave the house for like a week straight. I actually restarted my game because of the trial scene. I hated the fact that I had stolen somebody's lunch and it was being used against me on the stand. I was blown away that the game would remember such a little detail, and totally determined to play with more care and deliberation from that point forward.
I loved Secret of Mana, especially the art and the music, but I never finished. Secret of Evermore was the same. That's a really great game, too. I just couldn't get into it.
I did, however, really get into Illusion of Gaia (aka Illusion of Time). That game still weirds me out. It has such a different aesthetic compared to most SNES RPGs of the time. Something about the way the characters are drawn, the use of color...like somehow it almost feels 2nd-rate except that everything is so consistent. It's not the work of lesser artists, it's just slightly askew from the de facto SNES RPG style book. It's really an enjoyable game.
Also, the "Dark Space" environments in the game were really unsettling to me. Trippy stuff, slipping into this unplace to save your progress. Even thinking about it now kind of makes my stomach feel funny.
posted by Doleful Creature at 11:35 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
For me this feeling was best expressed by the SmaaaAAAASSHH!!! graphic in Earthbound.
When I was 11, rented a game that I thought was Top Gear 2000, but someone had switched the sticker on the cart (badly) and what I actually had was Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. I had no idea what the hell I was playing at first; I just opened up the save game and found myself as a helpless pink bunny in some insane monster-filled world. We returned it to the store and I got something else. But that image stuck with me pretty hard and I ended up getting Zelda for Christmas a few months later.
When I was 12 I used to go to my friend's house and watch him play Phantasy Star IV and Shining Force on his Sega. Man, those games looked so crazy-cool to me. They kind of intimidated me, actually. I felt safer with my Zelda.
Then when I was 13 we moved...and that Summer I discovered Chrono Trigger. Borrowed it from the neighbor girl. It had been her brother's. He was away at college and she said he wouldn't mind if I borrowed it. I didn't leave the house for like a week straight. I actually restarted my game because of the trial scene. I hated the fact that I had stolen somebody's lunch and it was being used against me on the stand. I was blown away that the game would remember such a little detail, and totally determined to play with more care and deliberation from that point forward.
I loved Secret of Mana, especially the art and the music, but I never finished. Secret of Evermore was the same. That's a really great game, too. I just couldn't get into it.
I did, however, really get into Illusion of Gaia (aka Illusion of Time). That game still weirds me out. It has such a different aesthetic compared to most SNES RPGs of the time. Something about the way the characters are drawn, the use of color...like somehow it almost feels 2nd-rate except that everything is so consistent. It's not the work of lesser artists, it's just slightly askew from the de facto SNES RPG style book. It's really an enjoyable game.
Also, the "Dark Space" environments in the game were really unsettling to me. Trippy stuff, slipping into this unplace to save your progress. Even thinking about it now kind of makes my stomach feel funny.
posted by Doleful Creature at 11:35 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
God I love Secret of Mana, Terranigma, IoG, Star Tropics, THAT KIND OF VIDEO GAME.
I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned Alundra!
posted by beefetish at 11:39 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned Alundra!
posted by beefetish at 11:39 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Coincidentally today is Chrono Trigger's 20th birthday. Really is a masterful game.
And in a year, it will be...old enough...to drink.
...I think I might need one.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:40 AM on March 11, 2015
And in a year, it will be...old enough...to drink.
...I think I might need one.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:40 AM on March 11, 2015
And in a year, it will be...old enough...to drink.
You're talking about pop, right?
posted by curious nu at 11:47 AM on March 11, 2015
You're talking about pop, right?
posted by curious nu at 11:47 AM on March 11, 2015
For me this feeling was best expressed by the SmaaaAAAASSHH!!! graphic in Earthbound.
One of the best parts of that game was that if the level discrepancy became high enough in your favor, there would be no fight. Just a flash, and a "you won!" notification.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:48 PM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the best parts of that game was that if the level discrepancy became high enough in your favor, there would be no fight. Just a flash, and a "you won!" notification.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:48 PM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned Alundra!
I had somehow completely forgotten about Alundra! Such an amazing game!
posted by C'est la D.C. at 1:03 PM on March 11, 2015
I had somehow completely forgotten about Alundra! Such an amazing game!
posted by C'est la D.C. at 1:03 PM on March 11, 2015
Oh man, Front Mission 3. A game that included an entire virtual internet that was useful in resolving the plot. Even if the name "wanzer" is a pretty silly one to tack onto a giant robot.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:19 PM on March 11, 2015
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:19 PM on March 11, 2015
One of the best parts of that game was that if the level discrepancy became high enough in your favor, there would be no fight. Just a flash, and a "you won!" notification.
It got better! They would start to run away and avoid you! Wonderful way to use game design to show progress
posted by The Whelk at 2:30 PM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
It got better! They would start to run away and avoid you! Wonderful way to use game design to show progress
posted by The Whelk at 2:30 PM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Someone else likes SoE! When my family rented it I thought it was awesome but I didn't get very far before I had to return it. So even though I really liked what I saw I have nothing to add except the alchemy thing was cool.
I had a similar experience with it. A friend had it, and me and him played through it together trading off and excitedly watching. I never got to finish it though, because our parents hated each other :(
It was a really good game though, and one i hadn't thought about in a long ass time.
I've still been meaning to pick it back up and try and play through it again, maybe even on my phone... but old RPGs always just feel so dense now. Like i'm slogging through molasses to get where i'm going. I can't ever remember if this game felt like that at the time, but i do remember that i loved that sloggy shit when i was that age.
posted by emptythought at 2:48 PM on March 11, 2015
I had a similar experience with it. A friend had it, and me and him played through it together trading off and excitedly watching. I never got to finish it though, because our parents hated each other :(
It was a really good game though, and one i hadn't thought about in a long ass time.
I've still been meaning to pick it back up and try and play through it again, maybe even on my phone... but old RPGs always just feel so dense now. Like i'm slogging through molasses to get where i'm going. I can't ever remember if this game felt like that at the time, but i do remember that i loved that sloggy shit when i was that age.
posted by emptythought at 2:48 PM on March 11, 2015
I still remember my jaw dropping when I played Seiken Densetsu III. The sprites were amazing and the animation of the beastman character (Kevin iirc) was great.
This thread is feel good. Keep sharing RPG & video-game stories. Please.
I played Terranigma quite a few times when it first came out and a couple of times in emulation as comfort food even though I only beat it the last couple of times. The battle system had enough weight to to last through the length of the game and although the concept wasn't particularly deep, there was something nice about running around the world and helping it resurrect/guide it (the biblical overtones are obvious when describing it the plot though in a jrpg way, as a story - did I mention the protagonist's name is Ark?).
The game I wish I had at the time though is Romancing Saga III. Characters, music, battle system (combo strikes, stats and abilities improving by use, army battles) and a lovely aesthetic would have kept me playing for ages.
PS Secret of Mana had a couple of nice remixes on OCRemix too. And apropos of nothing.
posted by ersatz at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2015
This thread is feel good. Keep sharing RPG & video-game stories. Please.
I played Terranigma quite a few times when it first came out and a couple of times in emulation as comfort food even though I only beat it the last couple of times. The battle system had enough weight to to last through the length of the game and although the concept wasn't particularly deep, there was something nice about running around the world and helping it resurrect/guide it (the biblical overtones are obvious when describing it the plot though in a jrpg way, as a story - did I mention the protagonist's name is Ark?).
The game I wish I had at the time though is Romancing Saga III. Characters, music, battle system (combo strikes, stats and abilities improving by use, army battles) and a lovely aesthetic would have kept me playing for ages.
PS Secret of Mana had a couple of nice remixes on OCRemix too. And apropos of nothing.
posted by ersatz at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2015
> You're talking about pop, right?
posted by curious nu at 14:47 on March 11
Eponysterical.
posted by xbonesgt at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by curious nu at 14:47 on March 11
Eponysterical.
posted by xbonesgt at 3:41 PM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
OCRemix is totally where I cut my teet online. I actually was working on a Broadway Musical version of the Chrono Trigger courtroom scene (as I said, that part of the game really stuck with me), but I never finished it. I should try again. The music in that game is so fantastic.
Oh yeah and I loved it when enemies ran away from me in Earthbound. Made me feel like such a badass.
posted by Doleful Creature at 4:59 PM on March 11, 2015
Oh yeah and I loved it when enemies ran away from me in Earthbound. Made me feel like such a badass.
posted by Doleful Creature at 4:59 PM on March 11, 2015
Like everything I loved, I was terrified of videogames, and actually playing them by myself was unthinkable for the first five years of my involvement with them. I could only play co-op, and (usually) only as the 2nd player.
Secret of Mana changed all that. My friend and I played through most of the game together, until it was time to land in that remote wilderness for the final approach to the Mana tree... but he had to go home, and I was stuck sitting there by myself, and finally decided no, I'm going to do this myself. And I finished the game.
What a weird game, though. There's this critical mass of tiny villages and kingdoms on top of a single plateau, and then a handful of other cities scattered in the far reaches of the world. Santa Claus is real. There's a continent that sank beneath the ocean, but you can raise it, and it contains a (functioning) subway system. Did we ever find out what city was actually the Empire's capital, or where it originated? Every faction seemed to come out of nowhere. Consequences of the game's truncation, I guess.
I was always fond of Secret of Evermore. The quirks made it: rather than using MP, alchemical spells are powered by ingredients, most of which you get by letting your dog sniff them out in the environments you travel through. You get to live a perfect example of why barter is such an inefficient system in the second major region in an overwhelming marketplace. And, in the final hours of the game, you get to put away the melee weapons in favor of bazookas. I do seem to recall the game getting just stupidly difficult for the third quarter of the game's length, though.
posted by jsnlxndrlv at 8:22 PM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Secret of Mana changed all that. My friend and I played through most of the game together, until it was time to land in that remote wilderness for the final approach to the Mana tree... but he had to go home, and I was stuck sitting there by myself, and finally decided no, I'm going to do this myself. And I finished the game.
What a weird game, though. There's this critical mass of tiny villages and kingdoms on top of a single plateau, and then a handful of other cities scattered in the far reaches of the world. Santa Claus is real. There's a continent that sank beneath the ocean, but you can raise it, and it contains a (functioning) subway system. Did we ever find out what city was actually the Empire's capital, or where it originated? Every faction seemed to come out of nowhere. Consequences of the game's truncation, I guess.
I was always fond of Secret of Evermore. The quirks made it: rather than using MP, alchemical spells are powered by ingredients, most of which you get by letting your dog sniff them out in the environments you travel through. You get to live a perfect example of why barter is such an inefficient system in the second major region in an overwhelming marketplace. And, in the final hours of the game, you get to put away the melee weapons in favor of bazookas. I do seem to recall the game getting just stupidly difficult for the third quarter of the game's length, though.
posted by jsnlxndrlv at 8:22 PM on March 11, 2015 [3 favorites]
Steely-eyed Missile Man: Every so often the StarTropics theme song will pop into my head. Great game.
And every so often I'll look up and see the Southern Cross and then say out loud: "Don't despair, Mike! Under the Southern Cross, anything is possible!" and my partner will ask "... what?" and then I'll launch into a long and rambling story about how much I loved Star Tropics.
posted by barnacles at 10:35 PM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
And every so often I'll look up and see the Southern Cross and then say out loud: "Don't despair, Mike! Under the Southern Cross, anything is possible!" and my partner will ask "... what?" and then I'll launch into a long and rambling story about how much I loved Star Tropics.
posted by barnacles at 10:35 PM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, I'm really tempted to go back and finish that game now. But that also means a bit of grinding though.
A design flaw in that game allowed you to cast magic spells right on top of each other so it was really too easy to spam special/magic attacks against the bosses that in a turn based RPG I would never have beaten. So I reached the final boss with far less health than I should have had and unfortunately you pretty much have to survive a couple of hits from the final boss before you get to fight it and of course my characters all go down in the second attack.
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:47 AM on March 12, 2015
A design flaw in that game allowed you to cast magic spells right on top of each other so it was really too easy to spam special/magic attacks against the bosses that in a turn based RPG I would never have beaten. So I reached the final boss with far less health than I should have had and unfortunately you pretty much have to survive a couple of hits from the final boss before you get to fight it and of course my characters all go down in the second attack.
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:47 AM on March 12, 2015
The witch doctor from Star Tropics waves her hand at you while she saves your progress, and my friend and I couldn't exactly make it out, so we thought she was waving a carrot, or a hoagie, or something, and we spent a whole lot of time trying to figure that out.
I never got far in Star Tropics 2 because they added in the ability to move diagonally which just felt wrong.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:45 AM on March 12, 2015
I never got far in Star Tropics 2 because they added in the ability to move diagonally which just felt wrong.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:45 AM on March 12, 2015
Secret of Mana was the last Square game programmed by one dude. You may vaguely remember the PROGRAMMED BY NASIR text in early Square games, including this one. The game also started as a project for the Super Nintendo's planned CD attachment (which, you know, became the PlayStation). I think many of the game's flaws -- along with its ridiculously high retail cost -- are a result of that backstory.
But even my idealized dream version of Secret of Mana isn't as good as Final Fantasy Adventure, to me. I remember being shocked to beat a game and not have a happy ending. I have a sword! I killed the bad guy! Now the woman I tried to rescue is a tree and the end of the world is inevitable? What the hell?
posted by OnSecondThought at 12:13 PM on March 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
But even my idealized dream version of Secret of Mana isn't as good as Final Fantasy Adventure, to me. I remember being shocked to beat a game and not have a happy ending. I have a sword! I killed the bad guy! Now the woman I tried to rescue is a tree and the end of the world is inevitable? What the hell?
posted by OnSecondThought at 12:13 PM on March 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
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I finally played it years later, and loved it, but it bore no relation to the game I invented in my head pouring over that manual.
posted by The Whelk at 9:21 AM on March 11, 2015 [1 favorite]