"...hollow out a heel of french bread and stick a whole onion into it"
March 17, 2015 8:04 AM Subscribe
Irish-American Dining. A history of and guide to food that is expressly Irish-American, by Mefi's own Max Sparber. Irish Egg Rolls! Early onion-based pub food! The hidden history of the Shamrock Shake! [via mefi projects]
Oh, Lord, now I have to go through and frantically correct typos.
posted by maxsparber at 8:14 AM on March 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:14 AM on March 17, 2015 [10 favorites]
Ooh, maybe now I will finally find out what the shamrock shake tastes like!
posted by dinty_moore at 8:18 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by dinty_moore at 8:18 AM on March 17, 2015
Ironically, the Irish gastro-pub up the block from me has indeed tinkered with introducing a fusion egg roll to its bar menu - but rather than an Irish-inspired one, they went with cheeseburger egg rolls. ....If they used a sharper Irish cheddar instead of the milder cheese I'd probably scarf them down like peanuts.
But they introduced colcannon to their bar menu this week and their version includes Irish bacon and it's been a full 18 hours since I had a dish of the stuff and I am still in my happy place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
But they introduced colcannon to their bar menu this week and their version includes Irish bacon and it's been a full 18 hours since I had a dish of the stuff and I am still in my happy place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:18 AM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ooh, maybe now I will finally find out what the shamrock shake tastes like!
Ah, tragedy. It tastes like tragedy and creme de menthe. No wonder I could never get a good description before now.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:21 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ah, tragedy. It tastes like tragedy and creme de menthe. No wonder I could never get a good description before now.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:21 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's a whole essay about Dinty Moore, by the way. Or, properly, about corned beef, but, as you know, they're closely connected.
posted by maxsparber at 8:36 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 8:36 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Timely, I'm reminded it's time for my corned beef and cabbage tradition today... In the form of a Reuben sandwich.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:38 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:38 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Max, I'mma write you separately about the site itself. I have Sudden Thoughts.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:40 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:40 AM on March 17, 2015
Please do!
posted by maxsparber at 8:41 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by maxsparber at 8:41 AM on March 17, 2015
EmpressCallipygos: "introducing a fusion egg roll to its bar menu "
If it's like mine, they question they asked was "What if we put some fatty point brisket into an eggroll wrapper, fried it too long and too low and served it on a bar napkin resting on a styro plate?" but hopefully your place has a little more pride.
dinty_moore: "Ooh, maybe now I will finally find out what the shamrock shake tastes like!"
From the linked shamrock shake page:
posted by boo_radley at 8:41 AM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
If it's like mine, they question they asked was "What if we put some fatty point brisket into an eggroll wrapper, fried it too long and too low and served it on a bar napkin resting on a styro plate?" but hopefully your place has a little more pride.
dinty_moore: "Ooh, maybe now I will finally find out what the shamrock shake tastes like!"
From the linked shamrock shake page:
“The Shamrock Shake” consists of a well-iced blending of the following ingredients. Juice of one lemon, half pound of loaf sugar, three cups of Lipton tea (strong), one quart of Lipton scotch whisky, one quart of American champagne, one whisky glass of Maraschino, one of curacao, one of green chartreuse, one pint of brandy, one pint of sherry. Garnish with sliced banana, pineapple and orange, and served in small sherry glasses. Named in honor of Sir Thomas Lipton of yacht fame.Soooo yeah, probably not gonna super-size that order.
posted by boo_radley at 8:41 AM on March 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
I grew up in an intensely Irish-American household, so I'm really enjoying these. (To give you an idea, I have been called up from another room for the traditional hand-over-your-heart moment-of-silent-reflection to Danny Boy when staying at my gran's over St Patrick's. Imagine an entire gathering of people pausing and looking solemnly at a television screen while an older fellow warbles against fields or green.)
posted by sciatrix at 8:41 AM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 8:41 AM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Ok, who's going to call dibs on starting a fusion egg-roll food truck?
posted by fings at 8:51 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by fings at 8:51 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have been called up from another room for the traditional hand-over-your-heart moment-of-silent-reflection to Danny Boy when staying at my gran's over St Patrick's. Imagine an entire gathering of people pausing and looking solemnly at a television screen while an older fellow warbles against fields or green.
Have told this story before, am doing so again:
So one of my best friends is Irish - as in, she lives there. We started as pen pals when we were twelve. My very first visit was when we were both freshmen in college, so I also got to visit with her parents and five brothers and sisters.
At some point her father and brother Donal took me to Blarney Castle - Donal was 15 then, and a glorious wise-ass - and we were all browsing in the gift shop afterward. And the Muzak was this constant stream of chirpy, lilting choral versions of songs like "Danny Boy" and "When Irish Eyes are Smiling" and "How Are Things in Glocca Morra".
At some point, after having watched me roll my eyes to the music a few times, Donal came up to me with an intent look. "I just want ye to know," he said earnestly, "this is the sort of music that embarrasses us."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
Have told this story before, am doing so again:
So one of my best friends is Irish - as in, she lives there. We started as pen pals when we were twelve. My very first visit was when we were both freshmen in college, so I also got to visit with her parents and five brothers and sisters.
At some point her father and brother Donal took me to Blarney Castle - Donal was 15 then, and a glorious wise-ass - and we were all browsing in the gift shop afterward. And the Muzak was this constant stream of chirpy, lilting choral versions of songs like "Danny Boy" and "When Irish Eyes are Smiling" and "How Are Things in Glocca Morra".
At some point, after having watched me roll my eyes to the music a few times, Donal came up to me with an intent look. "I just want ye to know," he said earnestly, "this is the sort of music that embarrasses us."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:55 AM on March 17, 2015 [8 favorites]
Boy, that shamrock shake article sure started off on a downer. They are being promoted all over the place here at work (I work at a children's hospital with a Ronald McDonald House next door and a Mcdonalds in the lobby) and now they just don't seem so festive. The alcoholic version is pretty impressive, though.
posted by TedW at 9:03 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by TedW at 9:03 AM on March 17, 2015
I am invited out to dinner tonight ( in Ireland ) for a traditional St Patrick's Day meal--boiled bacon ( a type of ham to most in the US), cabbage and boiled potatoes. My understanding of corned beef and cabbage is that it was never a traditional Irish meal as corned beef was much to expensive--it was made and processed in Ireland ( particularly Cork) but used by the British to feed their naval troops--so the Irish had pork. When Irish immigrants arrived in the States--beef was much more available and affordable. Voila--corned beef and cabbage. Happy St. Patrick's Day--
posted by rmhsinc at 9:04 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 9:04 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
they introduced colcannon to their bar menu this week
I love colcannon. In a similar vein, do Irish-Americans eat champ? I can take or leave potatoes generally, but I'll bite your hand off for proper creamy champ. You boil scallions in milk then whisk it all into mashed potatoes and add butter and seasoning. To serve it you make a well in the centre and add more butter, so everyone gets a helping of melted butter with their spuds. Carbs and fat - it's the food of the gods.
posted by billiebee at 9:04 AM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
I love colcannon. In a similar vein, do Irish-Americans eat champ? I can take or leave potatoes generally, but I'll bite your hand off for proper creamy champ. You boil scallions in milk then whisk it all into mashed potatoes and add butter and seasoning. To serve it you make a well in the centre and add more butter, so everyone gets a helping of melted butter with their spuds. Carbs and fat - it's the food of the gods.
posted by billiebee at 9:04 AM on March 17, 2015 [5 favorites]
I love colcannon. In a similar vein, do Irish-Americans eat champ?
Kierans in Minneapolis used to serve some lovely champ; they don't anymore. I make it myself at home now.
posted by maxsparber at 9:07 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Kierans in Minneapolis used to serve some lovely champ; they don't anymore. I make it myself at home now.
posted by maxsparber at 9:07 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Although both my husband and I are at least part-Irish (his grandmother was 1st generation), we'd never had colcannon until last year when we decided to make it on a whim. Good lord. Potatoes and greens and just an ocean of butter floating on top. billiebee is correct. Absolutely the [comfort] food of the gods. And I'm eating it right now.
posted by specialagentwebb at 9:11 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by specialagentwebb at 9:11 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
specialagentwebb if you like that let me introduce you to apple bread. A large potato farl stuffed with sliced cooking apples, lots of sugar and (of course) butter. Divine.
posted by billiebee at 9:19 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by billiebee at 9:19 AM on March 17, 2015
The Shamrock Shake hasn't been the same since they went all "MacCafe" on it. Give me the old over-processed can't suck it with a straw shake back!
posted by charred husk at 9:19 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by charred husk at 9:19 AM on March 17, 2015
if you like that let me introduce you to apple bread
YES PLEASE
posted by specialagentwebb at 9:23 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
YES PLEASE
posted by specialagentwebb at 9:23 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Colcannon is the best. It is the best thing.
Man, I fucking miss working at an Irish restaurant. The soda bread, so many noms.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:24 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Man, I fucking miss working at an Irish restaurant. The soda bread, so many noms.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:24 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
In a similar vein, do Irish-Americans eat champ? I can take or leave potatoes generally, but I'll bite your hand off for proper creamy champ.
I think a lot of the Irish-American take on food - and on Irish-American-ness, in general - depends on a) when the initial Irish ancestor moved to Ireland, b) how much they assimilated, and c) whether any of their descendants had an "I must find my roots" obsession later on.
To wit: my own Irish ancestor was most likely a Famine emigrant, and there were five generations between him and me. So by the time I was born, James Hurley's descendants had intermarried with people of English and French-Canadian and Polish descent, and in my own family "St. Patrick's Day Dinner" consisted of visiting the local Knights of Columbus grange hall in my hometown for corned beef and cabbage while they played that damn Irish Rovers song about the unicorn while sitting under a tacky cardboard cutout of a shamrock.
The reason why "corned beef and cabbage" is still a pervasive thing is more out of a sense of "tradition" than anything else, I'd wager - coupled with non-Irish-descended people adopting that for "tradition's" sake. But more recent Irish emigrants, long-ago descendants who decided to do some research (I'm in that camp), and people who live near really good pubs will make the switch to colcannon and champ and such. Most "Irish pubs" will often feature Irish stew, shepherd's pie, bangers and mash, or some assortment thereof.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on March 17, 2015
I think a lot of the Irish-American take on food - and on Irish-American-ness, in general - depends on a) when the initial Irish ancestor moved to Ireland, b) how much they assimilated, and c) whether any of their descendants had an "I must find my roots" obsession later on.
To wit: my own Irish ancestor was most likely a Famine emigrant, and there were five generations between him and me. So by the time I was born, James Hurley's descendants had intermarried with people of English and French-Canadian and Polish descent, and in my own family "St. Patrick's Day Dinner" consisted of visiting the local Knights of Columbus grange hall in my hometown for corned beef and cabbage while they played that damn Irish Rovers song about the unicorn while sitting under a tacky cardboard cutout of a shamrock.
The reason why "corned beef and cabbage" is still a pervasive thing is more out of a sense of "tradition" than anything else, I'd wager - coupled with non-Irish-descended people adopting that for "tradition's" sake. But more recent Irish emigrants, long-ago descendants who decided to do some research (I'm in that camp), and people who live near really good pubs will make the switch to colcannon and champ and such. Most "Irish pubs" will often feature Irish stew, shepherd's pie, bangers and mash, or some assortment thereof.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on March 17, 2015
while they played that damn Irish Rovers song about the unicorn
Written by famous Irish-American Shel Silverstein!
posted by maxsparber at 9:32 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Written by famous Irish-American Shel Silverstein!
posted by maxsparber at 9:32 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Off to heat up my lunch. We had colcannon last night (I have chorus rehearsal on Tuesdays so we don't eat dinner together, and we ate our SPD dinner a day early) and I have leftovers today.
posted by dlugoczaj at 9:37 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by dlugoczaj at 9:37 AM on March 17, 2015
Written by famous Irish-American Shel Silverstein!
He must have been on the same boat as the guy who wrote "How Are Things In Glocca Morra".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on March 17, 2015
He must have been on the same boat as the guy who wrote "How Are Things In Glocca Morra".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on March 17, 2015
I was until this very moment unaware that 'leftovers' was a thing that could happen with colcannon. (Which, referencing yesterday's thread, is also delicious made with kale.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Working at McDs in the 1980s, all I remember about the Shamrock was that they shipped us these gallon jugs of insanely green colored mint flavoring, which we unceremoniously dumped into the Vanilla holding tank of the shake machine.
Usually the manager would bitch about getting less than our desired order, or we were running out too fast, so cut back on the syrup kids and let's make this last. So the really minty shakes (as McDs wanted) never really happened. You got this light green mmm maybe-it's-mint flavor.
And yeah, the new McCafe stuff isn't the same. Doesn't even taste close.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:46 AM on March 17, 2015
Usually the manager would bitch about getting less than our desired order, or we were running out too fast, so cut back on the syrup kids and let's make this last. So the really minty shakes (as McDs wanted) never really happened. You got this light green mmm maybe-it's-mint flavor.
And yeah, the new McCafe stuff isn't the same. Doesn't even taste close.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:46 AM on March 17, 2015
One of the interesting things about the Irish diaspora is how much people of Irish descent maintain an interest in and relationship with contemporary Ireland -- publications like Irish Echo and Irish Voice spend as much or more space discussing contemporary Ireland as they do discussing the Irish-American experience.
Now, there are a lot of woefully ignorant Irish-Americans out there -- I think you can combine the word "woefully ignorant" and "American" and you'll be telling the truth about a lot of subjects. But there are also a massive number of Irish-Americans with a genuine fascination for contemporary Ireland, and so you find that there is this interesting cultural bleed back and forth, where the diaspora discovers something about contemporary Ireland and adopts it and then Ireland borrows something from the Irish diaspora. So we'll take the Pogues and create a massive collection of Celtic punk bands, and, in the meanwhile, we're performing an updating of traditional music that is largely inspired by American popular song forms, on instruments largely derived from American instrument makers (the banjo, for instance, was probably introduced to Ireland by Irish-American minstrel Dan Emmett, as I recall.) It's a culture of endless collaboration, and many Irish-Americans still view Ireland as a sort of wellspring of authenticity.
It's been interesting working on this project, because a lot of expressions of Irish-American identity are seen as being somehow inauthentic, even though we have been in this country for 400 some-odd years, and have sort of Irished it up in this country the entire time, and that should be long enough for the unique culture of the Irish-American to be seen as being somehow legitimate.
It's something I bounce around in my head quite a lot, because I come from another diaspora identity, having been raised by a Jewish family, and Jewish-Americans have no trouble claiming their identity as authentic. Nobody points at bagels and cream cheese, insists nobody ever ate them in Europe (which is true; the combination is distinctly Jewish-American), and they therefore are not a legitimately Jewish food. When Jews in America do stuff, it's Jewish, and that, for the most part, is that.
But I think there's two things going on. Firstly, Irish is an ethnicity in America but primarily a nationality in Ireland, and so while the Irish constitution recognizes the importance of the Irish diaspora, it gets a little more complicated when you have Americans coming to the country and proudly declaring themselves Irish. And this is a country that doesn't have a lot of experience navigating the question of ethnicity and nationality -- at least, not like America, where we're largely a nation of immigrants, many of whom have maintained their ethnic identity. And so the idea of Irish-American is complicated by this.
And it's also complicated by the fact that Americans go to Ireland all the time, and we constantly interact with each other, as I mentioned. So Irish-Americans have tended to have this obsession with Ireland that sometimes precludes looking at the distinctiveness of the Irish-American experience. And Irish-Americans are great intermarriers, and so most of us are less than 100 percent Irish. My biological mother's side was so Irish that she had Irish citizenship, but my biological father was from England, apparently. And so the Irish-American experience also ends up being a hybrid experience in a way that is quite different than the Irish experience tends to be, and you wind up seeing these hybrid expressions of identity. In fact, I think my Happy Hooligan project is very much this -- it's a way of looking at the Irish-American experience that is largely informed by my experience in the Jewish diaspora. It's very much informed by the fact that I consider the Irish-American experience to be real, valid, unique, and worth exploring on its own terms.
And so I start with the question of how cultures express themselves, and one of the biggest ways they do so is through food.
Do you know I have never had corned beef and cabbage? I've been a vegetarian since I was 16. But in the last few years I have made the decision to have meat on rare occasions, when it seems important to do so. So I'm having my first corned beef and cabbage tonight, because it's St. Paddy's and I can't go my whole life without experiencing it. I'm very curious.
I'm kind of dreading black pudding, although I hear it's delicious. Probably won't try that unless I'm actually in Ireland. It's a vegetarian's nightmare.
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on March 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
Now, there are a lot of woefully ignorant Irish-Americans out there -- I think you can combine the word "woefully ignorant" and "American" and you'll be telling the truth about a lot of subjects. But there are also a massive number of Irish-Americans with a genuine fascination for contemporary Ireland, and so you find that there is this interesting cultural bleed back and forth, where the diaspora discovers something about contemporary Ireland and adopts it and then Ireland borrows something from the Irish diaspora. So we'll take the Pogues and create a massive collection of Celtic punk bands, and, in the meanwhile, we're performing an updating of traditional music that is largely inspired by American popular song forms, on instruments largely derived from American instrument makers (the banjo, for instance, was probably introduced to Ireland by Irish-American minstrel Dan Emmett, as I recall.) It's a culture of endless collaboration, and many Irish-Americans still view Ireland as a sort of wellspring of authenticity.
It's been interesting working on this project, because a lot of expressions of Irish-American identity are seen as being somehow inauthentic, even though we have been in this country for 400 some-odd years, and have sort of Irished it up in this country the entire time, and that should be long enough for the unique culture of the Irish-American to be seen as being somehow legitimate.
It's something I bounce around in my head quite a lot, because I come from another diaspora identity, having been raised by a Jewish family, and Jewish-Americans have no trouble claiming their identity as authentic. Nobody points at bagels and cream cheese, insists nobody ever ate them in Europe (which is true; the combination is distinctly Jewish-American), and they therefore are not a legitimately Jewish food. When Jews in America do stuff, it's Jewish, and that, for the most part, is that.
But I think there's two things going on. Firstly, Irish is an ethnicity in America but primarily a nationality in Ireland, and so while the Irish constitution recognizes the importance of the Irish diaspora, it gets a little more complicated when you have Americans coming to the country and proudly declaring themselves Irish. And this is a country that doesn't have a lot of experience navigating the question of ethnicity and nationality -- at least, not like America, where we're largely a nation of immigrants, many of whom have maintained their ethnic identity. And so the idea of Irish-American is complicated by this.
And it's also complicated by the fact that Americans go to Ireland all the time, and we constantly interact with each other, as I mentioned. So Irish-Americans have tended to have this obsession with Ireland that sometimes precludes looking at the distinctiveness of the Irish-American experience. And Irish-Americans are great intermarriers, and so most of us are less than 100 percent Irish. My biological mother's side was so Irish that she had Irish citizenship, but my biological father was from England, apparently. And so the Irish-American experience also ends up being a hybrid experience in a way that is quite different than the Irish experience tends to be, and you wind up seeing these hybrid expressions of identity. In fact, I think my Happy Hooligan project is very much this -- it's a way of looking at the Irish-American experience that is largely informed by my experience in the Jewish diaspora. It's very much informed by the fact that I consider the Irish-American experience to be real, valid, unique, and worth exploring on its own terms.
And so I start with the question of how cultures express themselves, and one of the biggest ways they do so is through food.
Do you know I have never had corned beef and cabbage? I've been a vegetarian since I was 16. But in the last few years I have made the decision to have meat on rare occasions, when it seems important to do so. So I'm having my first corned beef and cabbage tonight, because it's St. Paddy's and I can't go my whole life without experiencing it. I'm very curious.
I'm kind of dreading black pudding, although I hear it's delicious. Probably won't try that unless I'm actually in Ireland. It's a vegetarian's nightmare.
posted by maxsparber at 10:01 AM on March 17, 2015 [16 favorites]
Black pudding is fantastic. Fry it up in cast iron and deglaze with a bit of cider and you have all the noms. That's how I had it the first time, anyway, cooked over a bonfire.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:16 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:16 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
But it's just flat out blood.
I mean, yeah, I know it's great. But, still. It's blood.
posted by maxsparber at 10:19 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, yeah, I know it's great. But, still. It's blood.
posted by maxsparber at 10:19 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm kind of dreading black pudding, although I hear it's delicious.
Actually, you know what pudding reminded me of the first time I tried it? Stove Top Stuffing. And black pudding was sort of like Stove Top Stuffing with some kind of undefineable aftertaste (sort of olive-y? Vinegary? I dunno). But it is good. And there are sources in this country, actually.
It's been interesting working on this project, because a lot of expressions of Irish-American identity are seen as being somehow inauthentic, even though we have been in this country for 400 some-odd years, and have sort of Irished it up in this country the entire time, and that should be long enough for the unique culture of the Irish-American to be seen as being somehow legitimate.
My old boss had a really interesting theory about that, and especially about why there was suddenly this weird Craze for Irish things in the early-to-mid 90's - he had a theory that there was a sort of five-generation progression in immigrant families:
* The emigrants themselves, once they moved here, were too occupied with trying to figure out which end was up and how to just cope.
* The first- or second-generation American-born descendants often went uber-American in an effort to fit in (either because they wanted to, or because their kids were dragged there - but think of the scene in that show FRESH OFF THE BOAT where the little kid goes to his Taiwanese parents and demands that he get to bring "white people food" to school for lunch).
* By the third and fourth generation, the family's pretty much assimilated - maybe there's a traditional dish that gets dug out every so often, "grandma's whatever", but other than that you don't know much about the traditions of the country of origin.
* But then the fourth or fifth generation is where you start to get the people who wonder, "hmm, I know I'm Irish, but what does that mean exactly?" And they go and do the whole "roots" journey or read up on things and go out of their way to find the "authentic" food.
He then pointed out that if you counted about five generations down from all the Famine emigrants, that brought you to...right about the mid-90's, when suddenly there was a whole Irish Stuff Craze in the US.
He wasn't an ethnographer and this was a theory he was largely pulling out of his ass, but I'd buy it for a dollar.
It's something I bounce around in my head quite a lot, because I come from another diaspora identity, having been raised by a Jewish family, and Jewish-Americans have no trouble claiming their identity as authentic. Nobody points at bagels and cream cheese, insists nobody ever ate them in Europe (which is true; the combination is distinctly Jewish-American), and they therefore are not a legitimately Jewish food. When Jews in America do stuff, it's Jewish, and that, for the most part, is that.
There's something you may want to track down - in one of the reprintings of Trinity, Leon Uris included a preface which addressed the "how did a Jewish-American author end up writing a book about Irish nationalism" question which occasionally cropped up; he did a decent job of pointing out that the two groups had a lot in common. (My very first job out of college was serving as Lee's assistant during an attempted staging of Trinity, so I saw a LOOOOT of xeroxed copies of that preface, including one we sent to Liam Neeson in a bid to have him star in the show - but I cannot for the life of me find it online.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:20 AM on March 17, 2015
Actually, you know what pudding reminded me of the first time I tried it? Stove Top Stuffing. And black pudding was sort of like Stove Top Stuffing with some kind of undefineable aftertaste (sort of olive-y? Vinegary? I dunno). But it is good. And there are sources in this country, actually.
It's been interesting working on this project, because a lot of expressions of Irish-American identity are seen as being somehow inauthentic, even though we have been in this country for 400 some-odd years, and have sort of Irished it up in this country the entire time, and that should be long enough for the unique culture of the Irish-American to be seen as being somehow legitimate.
My old boss had a really interesting theory about that, and especially about why there was suddenly this weird Craze for Irish things in the early-to-mid 90's - he had a theory that there was a sort of five-generation progression in immigrant families:
* The emigrants themselves, once they moved here, were too occupied with trying to figure out which end was up and how to just cope.
* The first- or second-generation American-born descendants often went uber-American in an effort to fit in (either because they wanted to, or because their kids were dragged there - but think of the scene in that show FRESH OFF THE BOAT where the little kid goes to his Taiwanese parents and demands that he get to bring "white people food" to school for lunch).
* By the third and fourth generation, the family's pretty much assimilated - maybe there's a traditional dish that gets dug out every so often, "grandma's whatever", but other than that you don't know much about the traditions of the country of origin.
* But then the fourth or fifth generation is where you start to get the people who wonder, "hmm, I know I'm Irish, but what does that mean exactly?" And they go and do the whole "roots" journey or read up on things and go out of their way to find the "authentic" food.
He then pointed out that if you counted about five generations down from all the Famine emigrants, that brought you to...right about the mid-90's, when suddenly there was a whole Irish Stuff Craze in the US.
He wasn't an ethnographer and this was a theory he was largely pulling out of his ass, but I'd buy it for a dollar.
It's something I bounce around in my head quite a lot, because I come from another diaspora identity, having been raised by a Jewish family, and Jewish-Americans have no trouble claiming their identity as authentic. Nobody points at bagels and cream cheese, insists nobody ever ate them in Europe (which is true; the combination is distinctly Jewish-American), and they therefore are not a legitimately Jewish food. When Jews in America do stuff, it's Jewish, and that, for the most part, is that.
There's something you may want to track down - in one of the reprintings of Trinity, Leon Uris included a preface which addressed the "how did a Jewish-American author end up writing a book about Irish nationalism" question which occasionally cropped up; he did a decent job of pointing out that the two groups had a lot in common. (My very first job out of college was serving as Lee's assistant during an attempted staging of Trinity, so I saw a LOOOOT of xeroxed copies of that preface, including one we sent to Liam Neeson in a bid to have him star in the show - but I cannot for the life of me find it online.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:20 AM on March 17, 2015
I grew up eating corned beef and cabbage, partly for traditional reasons, and partly because my mother found it easy to cook. New England Boiled Dinner: cabbage, boiled potatoes, and corned beef or daisy roll (ham ends formed into a loaf). It put me off cabbage for decades, until I discovered that it could be braised with balsamic vinegar or sauteed with soy sauce and taste just fine.
maxsparber, I have subscribed to Happy Hooligan, it looks fascinating. Loved the article about George M. Cohan.
posted by suelac at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2015
maxsparber, I have subscribed to Happy Hooligan, it looks fascinating. Loved the article about George M. Cohan.
posted by suelac at 10:22 AM on March 17, 2015
But it's just flat out blood.
I mean, yeah, I know it's great. But, still. It's blood.
posted by maxsparber at 1:19 PM on March 17 [+] [!]
Once it's cooked it's sort of a crunchy sausage shape and texture that is the strongest meatest flavor you will ever out in your mouth. It just tastes like umami, and the actuality of the substance doesn't interfere with the experience of eating it. That said I've only eaten it I've never cooked it myself. So YMMV.
posted by edbles at 10:25 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, yeah, I know it's great. But, still. It's blood.
posted by maxsparber at 1:19 PM on March 17 [+] [!]
Once it's cooked it's sort of a crunchy sausage shape and texture that is the strongest meatest flavor you will ever out in your mouth. It just tastes like umami, and the actuality of the substance doesn't interfere with the experience of eating it. That said I've only eaten it I've never cooked it myself. So YMMV.
posted by edbles at 10:25 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
The blood in blood pudding is rounded out with things like oatmeal and suet. It's not just, like, congealed plasma and nothing else.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:35 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:35 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
You're just terrifying me further.
posted by maxsparber at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos: " It's not just, like, congealed plasma and nothing else."
I've eaten a Vietnamese dish like this. It was surprising in the most obvious way.
posted by boo_radley at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2015
I've eaten a Vietnamese dish like this. It was surprising in the most obvious way.
posted by boo_radley at 10:37 AM on March 17, 2015
It's fine, if you don't overthink it. Much like haggis.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on March 17, 2015
posted by Chrysostom at 10:52 AM on March 17, 2015
I've eaten a Vietnamese dish like this. It was surprising in the most obvious way.
I once tried a little congealed ducks' blood at a dim sum place in Manhattan's chinatown. Perhaps fittingly, this happened on the day that one of my Irish friend's brothers was in town with his wife and another couple, and I was showing them The Sights; Cililan was a bit more well-traveled, though, as he worked at The Hague and so he and his wife had been to Singapore and Japan as well as throughout Europe. I think Cillian and I were the only ones brave enough to try the duck's blood.
...amusingly, later on that day when we were looking for a late night snack and they saw a White Castle, they asked if we should give it a try - but I hesitated for a split-second, and they caught that hesitation and then all adamantly REFUSED to set foot in the place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:53 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
I once tried a little congealed ducks' blood at a dim sum place in Manhattan's chinatown. Perhaps fittingly, this happened on the day that one of my Irish friend's brothers was in town with his wife and another couple, and I was showing them The Sights; Cililan was a bit more well-traveled, though, as he worked at The Hague and so he and his wife had been to Singapore and Japan as well as throughout Europe. I think Cillian and I were the only ones brave enough to try the duck's blood.
...amusingly, later on that day when we were looking for a late night snack and they saw a White Castle, they asked if we should give it a try - but I hesitated for a split-second, and they caught that hesitation and then all adamantly REFUSED to set foot in the place.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:53 AM on March 17, 2015 [3 favorites]
Firstly, Irish is an ethnicity in America but primarily a nationality in Ireland, and so while the Irish constitution recognizes the importance of the Irish diaspora, it gets a little more complicated when you have Americans coming to the country and proudly declaring themselves Irish.
The first time I heard the difference expressed like that it was an eye-opener to me. When I was young, I used to get irritated when people saying "I'm Irish too!" turned out to be 2nd or 3rd generation Americans with a fairly tenuous connection to Ireland itself. Now I can just think "ethnicity! ethnicity!" and remember that they're coming from a different set of assumptions. I think North America is the only place where Irish is considered an ethnicity, though - certainly in the rest of Europe "I'm Irish" will be considered to mean "I have an Irish passport".
posted by Azara at 11:00 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
The first time I heard the difference expressed like that it was an eye-opener to me. When I was young, I used to get irritated when people saying "I'm Irish too!" turned out to be 2nd or 3rd generation Americans with a fairly tenuous connection to Ireland itself. Now I can just think "ethnicity! ethnicity!" and remember that they're coming from a different set of assumptions. I think North America is the only place where Irish is considered an ethnicity, though - certainly in the rest of Europe "I'm Irish" will be considered to mean "I have an Irish passport".
posted by Azara at 11:00 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think that in America, heritage-as-ethnicity has a much more prominent role in identity than it does in Europe, where nationality is much stronger.
I learned very quickly each time I was in Ireland to say "some of my family was from Ireland" and not "I'm Irish." Same thing for Germany, and Norway, and….
posted by wenestvedt at 11:07 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
I learned very quickly each time I was in Ireland to say "some of my family was from Ireland" and not "I'm Irish." Same thing for Germany, and Norway, and….
posted by wenestvedt at 11:07 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Has anyone ever heard of colcannon or champ made with seaweed? My buddy, who grew up in America, but is Irisher than Paddies Pig insists his culchie cousins were very particular about the type of seaweed they collected to make champ.
Black pudding is weird, but integrates well with the grease and calorie bomb of a full Irish breakfast with massive amounts of builders tea.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:13 AM on March 17, 2015
Black pudding is weird, but integrates well with the grease and calorie bomb of a full Irish breakfast with massive amounts of builders tea.
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:13 AM on March 17, 2015
I think North America is the only place where Irish is considered an ethnicity, though - certainly in the rest of Europe "I'm Irish" will be considered to mean "I have an Irish passport".
I've never been clear on this. Paul McCartney and John Lennon thought of themselves as Irish, as does Shane McGoawn, despite all having been born in England, and there is currently a big issue with ethnic Irish in Scotland -- although, to be fair, the issue seems to be that Scottish people don't consider them to be Irish.
There seems to be a pretty large number of Australians who consider themselves ethnically Irish as well. But in all these instances, I'm ill-educated, and am interested in learning more about Irish identities elsewhere in the diaspora.
posted by maxsparber at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2015
I've never been clear on this. Paul McCartney and John Lennon thought of themselves as Irish, as does Shane McGoawn, despite all having been born in England, and there is currently a big issue with ethnic Irish in Scotland -- although, to be fair, the issue seems to be that Scottish people don't consider them to be Irish.
There seems to be a pretty large number of Australians who consider themselves ethnically Irish as well. But in all these instances, I'm ill-educated, and am interested in learning more about Irish identities elsewhere in the diaspora.
posted by maxsparber at 11:14 AM on March 17, 2015
Irish is definitely an ethnicity in America, especially on the east coast, when I was a doorman I was an "Irish Guy" as opposed to a Puerto Rican guy (Dominicans were also Puerto Rican guys) or a Polish guy (also could be Russian).
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:16 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Divine_Wino at 11:16 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder if there's such a thing as corned beef and cabbage pierogi? I mean, there obviously should be because that shit would go great in a pierogi. But is there?
*looks*
Yup. Sorry for doubting you, America.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:44 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
*looks*
Yup. Sorry for doubting you, America.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:44 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
The weird thing is, in the United States, the Irish occupied this weird sort of pseudo-white status for a while in the 1800's - which sounds ridiculous if you define "white" by skin coloration. But for the bigots of the world, it's never been entirely about melanin when you talk about "race" (these same bigots weren't too keen on the Italians either, among others, back in the day). Check out how the Irish are depicted in some of Thomas Nast's cartoons of the period.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:47 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:47 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Divine_Wino - yep. In my family it's dulse. Harvested from the Bay of Fundy. My grandfather would eat bags of it straight. It's a dark reddish purple and ruffled.
Actually I have a bit of it now (bought in NS at the regular grocery store, store-brand) and should make champ.
posted by hydrobatidae at 11:48 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actually I have a bit of it now (bought in NS at the regular grocery store, store-brand) and should make champ.
posted by hydrobatidae at 11:48 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
Actually, for even clearer evidence of how the "ethnicities" may have gotten divided up back in the day, this cartoon appeared in Harpers' Weekly in the late 1800's and tried to use "scientific proof" that the Irish were of a different ethnicity than "Anglo-Americans".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM on March 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hydrobatidae beat me to it. Dulse is a seaweed that is eaten here, but usually dried and straight from the bag. Haven't heard of people using it in colcannon before but I don't see why not.
posted by billiebee at 11:53 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 11:53 AM on March 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of dreading black pudding
It's not a big problem, as long as you avoid the Engulf attack and the acid. Use slashing or piercing weapons to split it up, then Fireball the rest.
...what?
posted by happyroach at 12:28 PM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
It's not a big problem, as long as you avoid the Engulf attack and the acid. Use slashing or piercing weapons to split it up, then Fireball the rest.
...what?
posted by happyroach at 12:28 PM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I was often reminded as a kid of the long ago days and the "No Irish or dogs" signs that were a marker of How Far We [meaning Irish-Americans] Had Come in this country.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:27 PM on March 17, 2015
posted by wenestvedt at 1:27 PM on March 17, 2015
I was surprised to see my local newspaper cited in maxsparber's comment about Dinty Moore, but since the nation's second oldest St. Patrick's day celebration is just down the river from us I guess it makes sense. It's too late for this years celebration, but if you are going to have corned beef, try making your own! It takes a little planning; you may need to order some pink salt from Amazon and it has to sit for 5-7 days, but really takes very little active time. Not only does it taste far better than what you get ready made, but you can adjust the flavor to your taste and (my favorite part) you can use whatever cut of meat you like. I like eye of round; less fatty than brisket and slices into nice medallions well suited for sandwiches. Headed downstairs to the kitchen to check on mine now.
posted by TedW at 1:40 PM on March 17, 2015
posted by TedW at 1:40 PM on March 17, 2015
Since there are some references to pub food here, I'll point out that this establishment advertises itself as "Augusta, Georgia's only authentic Irish pub." Even though it has about as much in common with an actual Irish pub as Hooters does with the Audubon Society.
posted by TedW at 1:49 PM on March 17, 2015
posted by TedW at 1:49 PM on March 17, 2015
Ted: I really want to send Donal in there and get his take now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:32 PM on March 17, 2015
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:32 PM on March 17, 2015
It's not just, like, congealed plasma and nothing else.
You can get congealed blood cubes in Chinese hot pot, too! It doesn't taste like anything, but has an interesting texture -- when you chew on it, it sticks to your teeth a bit.
posted by tickingclock at 7:35 PM on March 17, 2015
You can get congealed blood cubes in Chinese hot pot, too! It doesn't taste like anything, but has an interesting texture -- when you chew on it, it sticks to your teeth a bit.
posted by tickingclock at 7:35 PM on March 17, 2015
The corned beef and cabbage was fucking delicious.
posted by maxsparber at 2:40 PM on March 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 2:40 PM on March 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
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SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:10 AM on March 17, 2015 [7 favorites]