Graeber on Gawker, on extractive democracy
March 21, 2015 9:47 AM Subscribe
"This is a profound transformation, and one we barely talk about. " Anarchist anthropologist David Graeber sees the FBI Ferguson report as a window into how American democracy is changing.
"Almost every institution in America—from our corporations to our schools, hospitals, and civic authorities—now seems to operate largely as an engine for extracting revenue, by imposing ever more complex sets of rules that are designed to be broken."
Previous Graeberfilter.
"Almost every institution in America—from our corporations to our schools, hospitals, and civic authorities—now seems to operate largely as an engine for extracting revenue, by imposing ever more complex sets of rules that are designed to be broken."
Previous Graeberfilter.
a bigger pull-quote (of the what the holy f*** variety):
The DOJ's report has made us all familiar with the details: the constant pressure on police to issue as many citations as possible for minor infractions (such as parking or seat-belt violations) and the equal pressure on the courts to make the fines as high as possible; the arcane court rules apparently designed to be almost impossible to follow (the court's own web page contained incorrect information); the way citizens who had never been found guilty—indeed, never even been accused—of an actual crime were rounded up, jailed, threatened with "indefinite" incarceration in fetid cells, risking disease and serious injury, until their destitute families could assemble hundreds if not thousands of dollars in fines, fees, and penalties to pay their jailers.
As a result of such practices, over three quarters of the population had warrants out for the arrest at any given time. The entire population was criminalized.
posted by philip-random at 9:55 AM on March 21, 2015 [54 favorites]
The DOJ's report has made us all familiar with the details: the constant pressure on police to issue as many citations as possible for minor infractions (such as parking or seat-belt violations) and the equal pressure on the courts to make the fines as high as possible; the arcane court rules apparently designed to be almost impossible to follow (the court's own web page contained incorrect information); the way citizens who had never been found guilty—indeed, never even been accused—of an actual crime were rounded up, jailed, threatened with "indefinite" incarceration in fetid cells, risking disease and serious injury, until their destitute families could assemble hundreds if not thousands of dollars in fines, fees, and penalties to pay their jailers.
As a result of such practices, over three quarters of the population had warrants out for the arrest at any given time. The entire population was criminalized.
posted by philip-random at 9:55 AM on March 21, 2015 [54 favorites]
If you see a policeman and you feel more safe, rather than less, then you can be pretty sure you're middle class.
It's interesting how rapidly this is changing, though. My husband and I were talking last night about the police officers who were fired/resigned in Ft. Lauderdale this week, in terms of hate speech issues, and I just thought how horrific it would be to be ANY Black person in that city, knowing that this is what your local policemen think of you, no matter what class.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:56 AM on March 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's interesting how rapidly this is changing, though. My husband and I were talking last night about the police officers who were fired/resigned in Ft. Lauderdale this week, in terms of hate speech issues, and I just thought how horrific it would be to be ANY Black person in that city, knowing that this is what your local policemen think of you, no matter what class.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:56 AM on March 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Almost every institution in America—from our corporations to our schools, hospitals, and civic authorities—now seems to operate largely as an engine for extracting revenue, by imposing ever more complex sets of rules that are designed to be broken."
Almost?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:00 AM on March 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
Almost?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:00 AM on March 21, 2015 [6 favorites]
If you see a policeman and you feel more safe, rather than less, then you can be pretty sure you're middle class.
It's interesting how rapidly this is changing, though.
The rest of that quote makes it a different point, though:
posted by Etrigan at 10:01 AM on March 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's interesting how rapidly this is changing, though.
The rest of that quote makes it a different point, though:
In a very real sense, the "middle class" is not an economic category, it's a social one. To be middle class is to feel that the fundamental institutional structures of society are, or should be, on your side. If you see a policeman and you feel more safe, rather than less, then you can be pretty sure you're middle class.Graeber is essentially saying that whiteness is a prerequisite for membership in the American middle class, which isn't a bad point, but his co-opting a common term doesn't work very well.
posted by Etrigan at 10:01 AM on March 21, 2015 [12 favorites]
Graeber is essentially saying that whiteness is a prerequisite for membership in the American middle class, which isn't a bad point, but his co-opting a common term doesn't work very well.
I understood what he was saying. My position, as a white, cisgender, woman, is that I often don't feel safe around police (NYPD) because I have seen how quickly they overreact and create deadly situations.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
I understood what he was saying. My position, as a white, cisgender, woman, is that I often don't feel safe around police (NYPD) because I have seen how quickly they overreact and create deadly situations.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Never mind the cops - I found this little tidbit shocking:
posted by Wretch729 at 10:10 AM on March 21, 2015 [39 favorites]
According to a 2012 report by the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, overdraft and insufficient funds fees made up sixty-one percent of bank profits from consumer checking accounts; and in 2009, J. P Morgan Chase, the biggest bank in America, reported 71% of its total profits derived from fees and penalties.That's scary. I'd be curious to see more info on the banking system generally and not just consumer checking accounts (it doesn't seem too surprising that they aren't very profitable, given how common free checking is). If the profitability of the banking system rests on penalizing customers just for using it, the implications are not good.
posted by Wretch729 at 10:10 AM on March 21, 2015 [39 favorites]
To think we fought the English for freedom and can't even drive on public roads without a icense plate or insurance. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
His point being in comparison to police involvement in an actual violent incident, to support the point that the police are "bureaucrats with guns", as was made perfectly clear in the rest of that paragraph. It's almost like you pulled that sentence out of context deliberately in order to have a good sneer rather than make a salient point.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:11 AM on March 21, 2015 [31 favorites]
His point being in comparison to police involvement in an actual violent incident, to support the point that the police are "bureaucrats with guns", as was made perfectly clear in the rest of that paragraph. It's almost like you pulled that sentence out of context deliberately in order to have a good sneer rather than make a salient point.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 10:11 AM on March 21, 2015 [31 favorites]
Brings to mind the practice of fining people who fail to tap their transit pass in precisely the right place and manner, even if they've paid for and have a pass on the card. I saw signs that said $125 in Seattle and $250 in LA. Strikes me as disproportionate and almost purely extractive.
posted by aerotive at 10:41 AM on March 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by aerotive at 10:41 AM on March 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
This article makes it impossible to see the Ferguson police forces as anything other than a state-sanctioned gang extracting money from the people by violence, torture and incarceration.
Tens of thousands of unjust jail sentences. And yet I'll bet you any money not one of the real criminals will serve even one day in jail.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:45 AM on March 21, 2015 [19 favorites]
Tens of thousands of unjust jail sentences. And yet I'll bet you any money not one of the real criminals will serve even one day in jail.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:45 AM on March 21, 2015 [19 favorites]
I know from experience in both SF and Seattle that if you look like tech industry money you don't even have to talk your way out of that fine; they just tell you to be more careful next time.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:45 AM on March 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:45 AM on March 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
To think we fought the English for freedom and can't even drive on public roads without a icense plate or insurance. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
Little known fact: Thomas Jefferson has no insurance because that is just how he rolls.
posted by srboisvert at 10:48 AM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Little known fact: Thomas Jefferson has no insurance because that is just how he rolls.
posted by srboisvert at 10:48 AM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Graeber is an anarchist. While anarchism and libertarianism might look at first glance like the same thing, they differ considerably on things like property rights and use of force.
posted by Strange_Robinson at 10:50 AM on March 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Strange_Robinson at 10:50 AM on March 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
> Graeber may be a secret libertarian
He's an anarchist, not a (US-style) libertarian, and he's not secret about it. Unlike libertarianism, anarchism isn't based on an interpretation of US constitutional law, and anarchists aren't opposed to groups of people acting on and defending their collective interests, as long as participation is voluntary. Their attitudes towards abuse of power and government are pretty similar though.
posted by nangar at 11:00 AM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
He's an anarchist, not a (US-style) libertarian, and he's not secret about it. Unlike libertarianism, anarchism isn't based on an interpretation of US constitutional law, and anarchists aren't opposed to groups of people acting on and defending their collective interests, as long as participation is voluntary. Their attitudes towards abuse of power and government are pretty similar though.
posted by nangar at 11:00 AM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
Their attitudes towards abuse of power and government are pretty similar though.
Yeah, they're in favour of the former when it's them doing it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:06 AM on March 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, they're in favour of the former when it's them doing it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:06 AM on March 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
If two people punch each other, or even draw a knife on each other, police are unlikely to get involved. Drive down the street in a car without license plates, on the other hand, and the authorities will show up instantly, threatening all sorts of dire consequences if you don't do exactly what they tell you.
A lot of cops have a similar perspective as con artists do ime -- you're either a threat, or a mark, or a waste of time. I don't understand the idea of feeling safer with police around. They're not there to help YOU.
I'm not particularly afraid of cops, because I'm a white woman who looks/acts like a "nice girl" and they're unlikely to shoot me, or even, in my experience, to act especially impolite to me. Privilege coming out my ears. But I learned the hard way as a child and know full well now that they're also never going to help me. That's not their job, they're not in the business of helping people. They're basically just prison guards for those of us who aren't in prison (yet).
Even though this is incredibly abstract, what tends to gall me the most is that we -- members of society -- are supposed to get protection from the state in return for letting the state exist. That's the social contract in a nutshell. If the state is falling down on its end of the social contract, its existence/authority is invalid. Not that there's anything to be done about that, necessarily -- it's just a theoretical concept and all. But this sort of ~theoretical concept~ is VERY LITERALLY why the thirteen colonies revolted and why the US exists in the first place. So imo this sort of de facto police state is *fundamentally* "un-American," and to be frank, that sticks in my craw so bad. Lapsed idealist that I am.
posted by rue72 at 11:18 AM on March 21, 2015 [69 favorites]
A lot of cops have a similar perspective as con artists do ime -- you're either a threat, or a mark, or a waste of time. I don't understand the idea of feeling safer with police around. They're not there to help YOU.
I'm not particularly afraid of cops, because I'm a white woman who looks/acts like a "nice girl" and they're unlikely to shoot me, or even, in my experience, to act especially impolite to me. Privilege coming out my ears. But I learned the hard way as a child and know full well now that they're also never going to help me. That's not their job, they're not in the business of helping people. They're basically just prison guards for those of us who aren't in prison (yet).
Even though this is incredibly abstract, what tends to gall me the most is that we -- members of society -- are supposed to get protection from the state in return for letting the state exist. That's the social contract in a nutshell. If the state is falling down on its end of the social contract, its existence/authority is invalid. Not that there's anything to be done about that, necessarily -- it's just a theoretical concept and all. But this sort of ~theoretical concept~ is VERY LITERALLY why the thirteen colonies revolted and why the US exists in the first place. So imo this sort of de facto police state is *fundamentally* "un-American," and to be frank, that sticks in my craw so bad. Lapsed idealist that I am.
posted by rue72 at 11:18 AM on March 21, 2015 [69 favorites]
A back-alley mugger:
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:29 AM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
- has a gun
- wants my money
- has a gun
- wants my money (in the form of a paycheck drawn on public funds)
- has the full power of the state behind him and the presumption of being in the right
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:29 AM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm especially pleased, if you can call it that, with how Graeber doesn't comparmentalize between the police and the banks. Whatever your feelings about capitalism, it is demonstrably enmeshed with the state. There are entire government institutions, from the local to the international level, tasked with maintaining its continued existence. What this brings with it is the reality that the rich are simply not as answerable to the law as the rest of us are, and when capitalism is in trouble (e.g. thw 2008 financial crisis) they're not the ones tasked with footing the bill; they're the bill collectors, and it's us who pay. So naturally, when the state is pressed for cash, they will head for the path of least resistance in raising revenue.
Banks and cops will always shake down the easiest to shake down not just because it's easier than leaning on the rich, and not just because it's the rich that they work for - pressing the poor with these feudal tactics is what keeps capitalism rolling along, on the backs of people trying to work for a living, so the people buying and selling that labor can keep making money.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:39 AM on March 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Banks and cops will always shake down the easiest to shake down not just because it's easier than leaning on the rich, and not just because it's the rich that they work for - pressing the poor with these feudal tactics is what keeps capitalism rolling along, on the backs of people trying to work for a living, so the people buying and selling that labor can keep making money.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 11:39 AM on March 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
We're basically on the way back to criminalizing being poor. Don't have a bank account? Cashing your paycheck will cost you. Can't afford furniture or a computer or a TV? We can sell one to you at double or triple the actual price, spread out over years. Want to eat food but can't get around very well? Here's some overpriced stuff that's not terribly good for you. Pick which bill you want to put off for a month so you can re-up the prescription or pay the copay for a sick kid. We've just expanded the walls of the debtor's prison a bit.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:47 AM on March 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 11:47 AM on March 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
Not quite.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:04 PM on March 21, 2015
Not quite.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:04 PM on March 21, 2015
They're basically just prison guards for those of us who aren't in prison (yet).
This is astute, and it's exactly what I took away from the Ferguson DoJ report too. The police treated every person in that community like a prisoner that they just hadn't bothered to put behind bars yet - it was just one big open-air prison to them.
posted by dialetheia at 12:17 PM on March 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
This is astute, and it's exactly what I took away from the Ferguson DoJ report too. The police treated every person in that community like a prisoner that they just hadn't bothered to put behind bars yet - it was just one big open-air prison to them.
posted by dialetheia at 12:17 PM on March 21, 2015 [14 favorites]
Post-industrial capitalism operates by a familiar logic of extraction, but instead of mining, say, iron to process and turn into various goods, capitalist interests are mining the state and the people themselves, extracting back (both through the confiscatory practices of the judiciary and law enforcement and through the more abstract disposession of pension raiding and similar) the wealth generated during previous eras while continuously colonizing the state, and especially its relationship with the governed.
posted by clockzero at 12:18 PM on March 21, 2015 [45 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 12:18 PM on March 21, 2015 [45 favorites]
it's interesting isn't it, that of all the amendments in the bill of rights, this one has never been found to apply to the states, although others have -
"In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law"
funny how that works
it's good that we call for our 1st amendment rights - and yes, our 2nd amendment rights (let's not argue about this, please) - and many of the other amendments' rights
when are we going to call for our 7th amendment rights and call out the weasel logic the courts have used to deprive us of them?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
"In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law"
funny how that works
it's good that we call for our 1st amendment rights - and yes, our 2nd amendment rights (let's not argue about this, please) - and many of the other amendments' rights
when are we going to call for our 7th amendment rights and call out the weasel logic the courts have used to deprive us of them?
posted by pyramid termite at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
We're basically on the way back to criminalizing being poor.
There's no "on the way" about it.
posted by blucevalo at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
There's no "on the way" about it.
posted by blucevalo at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
That's a great analysis, clockzero. And it can be extended to talk about something Graeber also discusses elsewhere: managerialism. We can see the dominance in practically every institution now, public or private, of an ever-expanding managerial clique that directs not only the institution's funds, but its very mission towards its own survival and replication. This is also a form of colonisation. Universities, as Graeber discusses elsewhere, are a prime example of this. Indeed, maybe it's not even worth seeing it in terms of economics and geopolitics but more in terms of medical metaphors. What we have here is a virus that invades hosts on the pretence of possessing managerial competence, then hollows them out and makes them engines for manufacturing more extractive managerialism. It's not just post industrial capitalism, it's almost a literal global governmental pandemic that will completely destroy our institutions and leave us with a Gulf States-style feudalism within the next decade or two.
posted by Sonny Jim at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 12:33 PM on March 21, 2015 [22 favorites]
I'm especially pleased, if you can call it that, with how Graeber doesn't comparmentalize between the police and the banks. Whatever your feelings about capitalism, it is demonstrably enmeshed with the state.
Longtime Mefites might know my past life in the compliance and litigation department of a debt buyer focused on unsecured US consumer debt. I'm reminded of the Mitchell and Webb skit "Nazis", where an SS officer, noticing the skull insignia asks "Hans, are we the baddies?" I had that moment when I realized we were regularly having people arrested for not paying their MasterCard bills.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:54 PM on March 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
Longtime Mefites might know my past life in the compliance and litigation department of a debt buyer focused on unsecured US consumer debt. I'm reminded of the Mitchell and Webb skit "Nazis", where an SS officer, noticing the skull insignia asks "Hans, are we the baddies?" I had that moment when I realized we were regularly having people arrested for not paying their MasterCard bills.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:54 PM on March 21, 2015 [21 favorites]
"Universities, as Graeber discusses elsewhere, are a prime example of this."
Related:
Related:
Even our higher education system now operates largely as an engine for trapping students in permanent debt, and much of the profits to be extracted from student debtors comes from penalizing them for missed payments, postponements and defaults.posted by doctornemo at 1:17 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
While anarchism and libertarianism might look at first glance like the same thing, they differ considerably on things like property rights and use of force.
Except, of course, for the anarcho-capitalists.
posted by corb at 1:21 PM on March 21, 2015
Except, of course, for the anarcho-capitalists.
posted by corb at 1:21 PM on March 21, 2015
From NPR, a story that's somewhat related to the idea of middle-class as social context: How Much (Or Little) The Middle Class Makes, In 30 U.S. Cities
posted by Going To Maine at 1:36 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 1:36 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Except, of course, for the anarcho-capitalists.
Anarcho-capitalism -- that philosophy which distills and extracts the absolute worst elements of two opposite extremes and combines them into one sociopathic dystopia.
posted by JackFlash at 3:03 PM on March 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
Anarcho-capitalism -- that philosophy which distills and extracts the absolute worst elements of two opposite extremes and combines them into one sociopathic dystopia.
posted by JackFlash at 3:03 PM on March 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
To think we fought the English for freedom and can't even drive on public roads without a license plate or insurance. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
I chose to live in an inner burb of Boston specifically so I would never need a license to leave my home to fetch milk.
This lifestyle choice is one the right wing mocks as statist.
posted by ocschwar at 4:09 PM on March 21, 2015 [5 favorites]
That everything is so fragile and rests so delicately on the knife edge is what scares me the most. Make one simple mistake or walk in the wrong direction or say the wrong thing....
posted by Fizz at 4:41 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 4:41 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
We can see the dominance in practically every institution now, public or private, of an ever-expanding managerial clique that directs not only the institution's funds, but its very mission towards its own survival and replication. This is also a form of colonisation. Universities, as Graeber discusses elsewhere, are a prime example of this.
Not just big universities either—the contentious de-accreditation of City College of San Francisco was (and is) entirely about managerialism as well. There are really only three legitimate reasons to de-accredit a higher ed institution:
1) The education is of poor quality;
2) The college won't be there in the future (i.e. financial issues);
3) The students are being scammed (i.e. that it is impossible to actually finish a degree, or more recently that student debt is too high).
The original probation for CCSF was related to its finances and its management. For the latter, the commission's issue was, essentially, that faculty had too much power over the institution. The City of San Francisco (with an annual budget of ~$1 billion) responded by backing CCSF's debt, taking the financial issues off the table—and the ACCJC attempted to revoke accreditation anyway.
Now, CCSF isn't great at getting students to 4-years or even to AAs, but those aren't the cause of the contest. And the ACCJC site committee didn't have the requisite teacher/faculty membership.
So let's the contextualize with Graeber's point: You have the accrediting commission taking away the legitimacy of an institution that serves 80,000 students, mostly lower-income and (iirc) mostly students of color, in order to force a specific type of management on City College. That means that they are willing to cut off those students from what they certify as a legitimate classroom education in order to perpetuate a specific form of bureaucracy.
And this is how public-serving institutions that fail to enrich the managerial class or capitalism directly are disciplined and, perhaps, eliminated.
posted by migrantology at 4:52 PM on March 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Not just big universities either—the contentious de-accreditation of City College of San Francisco was (and is) entirely about managerialism as well. There are really only three legitimate reasons to de-accredit a higher ed institution:
1) The education is of poor quality;
2) The college won't be there in the future (i.e. financial issues);
3) The students are being scammed (i.e. that it is impossible to actually finish a degree, or more recently that student debt is too high).
The original probation for CCSF was related to its finances and its management. For the latter, the commission's issue was, essentially, that faculty had too much power over the institution. The City of San Francisco (with an annual budget of ~$1 billion) responded by backing CCSF's debt, taking the financial issues off the table—and the ACCJC attempted to revoke accreditation anyway.
Now, CCSF isn't great at getting students to 4-years or even to AAs, but those aren't the cause of the contest. And the ACCJC site committee didn't have the requisite teacher/faculty membership.
So let's the contextualize with Graeber's point: You have the accrediting commission taking away the legitimacy of an institution that serves 80,000 students, mostly lower-income and (iirc) mostly students of color, in order to force a specific type of management on City College. That means that they are willing to cut off those students from what they certify as a legitimate classroom education in order to perpetuate a specific form of bureaucracy.
And this is how public-serving institutions that fail to enrich the managerial class or capitalism directly are disciplined and, perhaps, eliminated.
posted by migrantology at 4:52 PM on March 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
Ton Engelhardt, The New American Order - "Whatever this may add up to, it seems to be based, at least in part, on the increasing concentration of wealth and power in a new plutocratic class and in that ever-expanding national security state. Certainly, something out of the ordinary is underway, and yet its birth pangs, while widely reported, are generally categorized as aspects of an exceedingly familiar American system somewhat in disarray."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:00 PM on March 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:00 PM on March 21, 2015 [8 favorites]
I never thought I'd miss the prospect of nuclear war, but it's looking increasingly like a quick death in a nuclear fireball would have been preferable to my prospects in the country I'm almost certainly going to grow old and die in. Maybe the heavily armed rednecks like were on VICE this week have a point, but I'll be damned if I can make common cause with them. If for no other reason than the majority of them seem to have fallen for the lie that somehow it's poor people that are screwing them, rather than rapacious corporations and good-for-nothing rentiers.
I don't even know which of my stock phrases to use.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:06 AM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't even know which of my stock phrases to use.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:06 AM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Anarcho-capitalists are not anarchists, do not share anarchist analysis of just about anything, and waver kind of hilariously between calling anarchists communist scum and trying desperately to be accepted as anarchists.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:26 AM on March 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:26 AM on March 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Are the Anarcho-capitalists the ones who worship and are trying to fully (not far to go!) unshackle a paperclip AI focused on profit instead of little bits of metal?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:33 AM on March 22, 2015
posted by Slackermagee at 6:33 AM on March 22, 2015
Wait, I thought it just wanted to help me write documents...
posted by Drinky Die at 7:01 AM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Drinky Die at 7:01 AM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe this is a new manifestation of police work, but creating rules so you can extract from those who break the rules seems to go far back in capitalist governance
posted by eustatic at 8:19 AM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 8:19 AM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the worst things about all of this is how many citizens of Ferguson made explicit, personal claims of exploitation and corruption long before they were verified in the Department of Justice report. That these people and their claims were ignored or dismissed as "lacking evidence" or simply "not my problem" until their justice was tangentially addressed by one of these Departments of Anything But.
Per the post-industrial capitalist wealth mining operation metaphor, this is a machine whose collateral damage is easy to ignore as long as you aren't directly involved in the extraction process. But is anything even being produced or manufactured for the rest of society? What are the "various goods" mined from the wealth of others that are designed to keep the rest of us complacent in this day an age? Or is this just another selfish, heartless greed destined to eat itself in due time?
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 8:48 AM on March 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Per the post-industrial capitalist wealth mining operation metaphor, this is a machine whose collateral damage is easy to ignore as long as you aren't directly involved in the extraction process. But is anything even being produced or manufactured for the rest of society? What are the "various goods" mined from the wealth of others that are designed to keep the rest of us complacent in this day an age? Or is this just another selfish, heartless greed destined to eat itself in due time?
posted by Johann Georg Faust at 8:48 AM on March 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Are the Anarcho-capitalists the ones who worship and are trying to fully (not far to go!) unshackle a paperclip AI focused on profit instead of little bits of metal?
What a marvelous way of putting it. The most salient aspect of anarcho-capitalist thought seems to be the same as the most salient aspect of their more mainstream libertarian cousins: a near-total ignorance of history beyond maybe 150 years ago.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:06 AM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
What a marvelous way of putting it. The most salient aspect of anarcho-capitalist thought seems to be the same as the most salient aspect of their more mainstream libertarian cousins: a near-total ignorance of history beyond maybe 150 years ago.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 10:06 AM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
this dovetails well with an article a friend linked me yesterday, though it's a bit more proactively anti-capitalist: We Are All Very Anxious
posted by p3on at 1:31 PM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by p3on at 1:31 PM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Eh, starting to feel that the an-cap thing is a derail, as unfortunately often as "but don't forget the an-caps!" manages to wedge itself into any thread with the word "anarchism" in it.
I think the "mining the poor" metaphor is perfect. It's the next logical step in an expansionist economic model that already trades on the labor of others - why buy and sell production when you can blatantly grab the poor by their ankles and shake them?
I remember being taught in grade school that one of the things that separated America from the Redcoats is we don't do debtor's prison. How quickly we went from that to doing it figuratively, and then literally.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:41 PM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the "mining the poor" metaphor is perfect. It's the next logical step in an expansionist economic model that already trades on the labor of others - why buy and sell production when you can blatantly grab the poor by their ankles and shake them?
I remember being taught in grade school that one of the things that separated America from the Redcoats is we don't do debtor's prison. How quickly we went from that to doing it figuratively, and then literally.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:41 PM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ok, so now that we've established that most American institutions are part of a racist, coercive police-finance state whose main feature seems to be extracting rent from the most desperate in society in order to line the pockets of the rich...
... what are we going to do about it?
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:02 PM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
... what are we going to do about it?
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:02 PM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, for starters I think it would be a mistake to believe there is One Solution. Everyone has their individual circumstances, challenges and resources to contend with. But I also don't think this means everyone is completely on their own; it takes solidarity to make massive change work and last. Fortunately, we have examples from history to drawn from when it comes to how people extricate themselves from debt tyrrany, probably too numerous for me to peck out by phone. However, I can heartily recommend Naomi Klein's The Take as documenting a good example of what some people have done about it.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 4:29 PM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 4:29 PM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
re: managerialism (from the last graeber thread ;)
what are we going to do about it?
dismantle the banking system! [1,2,3]
posted by kliuless at 9:19 AM on March 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
what are we going to do about it?
dismantle the banking system! [1,2,3]
posted by kliuless at 9:19 AM on March 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
Florida Cop Literally Just Shot Unarmed African American With His Hands Up, Begging Not To Be Shot
posted by jeffburdges at 12:18 AM on April 6, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 12:18 AM on April 6, 2015
Ramsey Orta, the man imprisoned for filming the NYPD killing Eric Garner, is now refusing to eat after jailers attempted to feed him rat poison on Rikers Island.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:27 PM on April 6, 2015
posted by jeffburdges at 1:27 PM on April 6, 2015
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To think we fought the English for freedom and can't even drive on public roads without a license plate or insurance. Thomas Jefferson must be rolling in his grave.
posted by jpe at 9:55 AM on March 21, 2015