And the winner is...
July 31, 2015 6:39 PM Subscribe
Beijing has been voted as the host of the 2022 Winter Olympics, beating Almaty, Kazakhstan. It is the first city to host both the Summer and Winter games.
Oslo and Krakow were among cities that pulled themselves from the running, citing reasons including cost concerns and lack of public support.
Oslo and Krakow were among cities that pulled themselves from the running, citing reasons including cost concerns and lack of public support.
Beijing has been voted as won the auction for the host of the 2022 Winter Olympics
posted by chimaera at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2015 [60 favorites]
posted by chimaera at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2015 [60 favorites]
Who wants to host the Olympics? Beijing is the only place that is willing to do it!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Vancouver, Sochi, Pyeongchang, Beijing.
Hey, crazy thought: Maybe hold the Winter Olympics someplace that has a winter?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:57 PM on July 31, 2015 [16 favorites]
Hey, crazy thought: Maybe hold the Winter Olympics someplace that has a winter?
posted by Sys Rq at 6:57 PM on July 31, 2015 [16 favorites]
The Olympics has become the international version of the US stadium scam. It needs to be held in one place, that has the facilities already built, for eternity. And save the world the trouble of wasting a 100 billion dollars building 30 new stadiums in a different country every two years that will only get used to two weeks before being left to rot. If the world can't agree on where that should be, we're all better off letting the current incarnation die than throwing away so many resources.
It's telling that the only countries eager to bid on the Olympics are tinpot dictatorships like Kazakhstan and China. The developed world is starting to catch on that two weeks of spotlight is not worth nearly the price.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:03 PM on July 31, 2015 [43 favorites]
It's telling that the only countries eager to bid on the Olympics are tinpot dictatorships like Kazakhstan and China. The developed world is starting to catch on that two weeks of spotlight is not worth nearly the price.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:03 PM on July 31, 2015 [43 favorites]
iociscompletelydivorcedfromreality
Tag QFT.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:03 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
Tag QFT.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:03 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
Hey, crazy thought: Maybe hold the Winter Olympics someplace that has a winter?
Shh! Don't ruin a good thing. Maybe this is the start of Beijing hosting every Olympics, and no other city will ever have to deal with it ever again!
posted by FJT at 7:06 PM on July 31, 2015 [15 favorites]
Shh! Don't ruin a good thing. Maybe this is the start of Beijing hosting every Olympics, and no other city will ever have to deal with it ever again!
posted by FJT at 7:06 PM on July 31, 2015 [15 favorites]
I've posted this several places today but this piece from NYT's Juliet Macur is really worth reading for several reasons.
There are serious problems — again — to having Beijing play host. In 2008, those who projected that bringing the Games there might open up China saw nothing of the sort. Potential protesters were detained, some sentenced to “re-education through labor.” Websites were blocked. A day after the closing ceremony, thick, yellow pollution returned to the city’s sky. Seven years later, the only use for most of the dusty, unloved venues from 2008 was as a lure for another chance at the Games in 2022.posted by Ufez Jones at 7:08 PM on July 31, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yet back to Beijing the world will go — somehow, some way.
The I.O.C. didn’t demand that the Chinese fulfill their promises in 2008, and in the interim the country’s human rights record has gotten worse, not better. It’s hard to expect change this time around.
President Xi Jinping of China, in a video statement before Friday’s vote, said, “We will honor all the commitments.” And something made the I.O.C. actually believe that, even though it had heard that pitch before and been burned by it.
Now Beijing’s second Games will test Thomas Bach, the I.O.C. president, in a way he has not been tested before.
Last fall, he announced that he would include an anti-discrimination clause in future contracts with host cities. But will he stand by that rule, in the face of a Chinese government unwilling to bend to outside influence and the corporate sponsors who have begun to drool?
If Beijing does not follow through on its guarantees, what can Bach do? He could always ask another city to jump in.
How about Boston?
It shot down a chance to host the Summer Games this week, but it does have at least one advantage over Beijing: It snows there in winter.
If you define Bejing wide enough, you'll find winter.
Just like if you define Chicago wide enough, you'll find mountains.
posted by eriko at 7:09 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Just like if you define Chicago wide enough, you'll find mountains.
posted by eriko at 7:09 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Hey, we got FIFA, give the Justice Department a year or so.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
It needs to be held in one place, that has the facilities already built, for eternity.
I don't necessarily think that's required. I think a reasonable requirement is to only accept bids from cities that already meet facility and infrastructure requirements before they make the bid. A no-build requirement for an Olympics would help make them a thing that local groups in almost any city would much more likely be in support of.
And yeah, that means the winter Olympics will start going back to places like St. Moritz, or Innsbruck, or Sapporo, or (even) Oslo.
posted by chimaera at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2015 [7 favorites]
I don't necessarily think that's required. I think a reasonable requirement is to only accept bids from cities that already meet facility and infrastructure requirements before they make the bid. A no-build requirement for an Olympics would help make them a thing that local groups in almost any city would much more likely be in support of.
And yeah, that means the winter Olympics will start going back to places like St. Moritz, or Innsbruck, or Sapporo, or (even) Oslo.
posted by chimaera at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also, the official Kazhak promo piece for "Keeping it Real" was pretty damn well done. (Not that I would wish an Olympics on any city or country these days)
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:12 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:12 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thanks for the link to the Macur piece, Ufez. I like this quote and may have missed out on a better FPP title:
While the Almaty bid’s slogan was “Keeping It Real,” Beijing’s could have been, “Keeping It Impractical.”
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:14 PM on July 31, 2015
While the Almaty bid’s slogan was “Keeping It Real,” Beijing’s could have been, “Keeping It Impractical.”
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:14 PM on July 31, 2015
How about Boston?
Yes, we could do the downhill in Southie.
posted by mr vino at 7:17 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, we could do the downhill in Southie.
posted by mr vino at 7:17 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Thanks for the link to the Macur piece, Ufez. I like this quote and may have missed out on a better FPP title:
She knocked that whole damn piece out. It's easily one of the best sports op/eds I've read this year.
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:18 PM on July 31, 2015
She knocked that whole damn piece out. It's easily one of the best sports op/eds I've read this year.
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:18 PM on July 31, 2015
tinpot dictatorships like Kazakhstan and China
To be fair, China's more of a cast-iron one.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:35 PM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
To be fair, China's more of a cast-iron one.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:35 PM on July 31, 2015 [11 favorites]
Given all the economic evidence that sports does not bring any real value to any city that decides to accept it, when are we going to stop dealing with all this nonsense. Professional sports in the US is basically for profit corporations on tax payer supported welfare. It seems that the Olympics have just become venues for corporate marketing. If the Olympics went back to being just an event for amateur atheletes then maybe things would be better. But I doubt that it would ever return to that. Where's the money in that?
posted by njohnson23 at 7:49 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 7:49 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is the smog better or worse in the winter in Beijing? It was horrific for the summer games, and that after the government ordered everyone to stop driving their cars during the games.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:54 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:54 PM on July 31, 2015
I mean, I guess if Pyeongchang's average low in Jan-Feb isn't good enough at -12.6C/-10.5C, I guess it doesn't count as a winter?
Depends. Are they holding the games in the middle of the night, when the lows would be relevant?
The average highs in January and February are -2.5°C and -0.4°C, respectively. That's barely below freezing. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for slight unseasonable warmth.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:09 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Depends. Are they holding the games in the middle of the night, when the lows would be relevant?
The average highs in January and February are -2.5°C and -0.4°C, respectively. That's barely below freezing. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for slight unseasonable warmth.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:09 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have a soft spot for Alma Aty because a) great churches B) its name means Father of Apples and apples come from the wilds near there and c) it is a crazy city, though not half as crazy as Astana. But Beijing is probably substantially more able to actually host and Olympics and actually way less oppressive.
" And something made the I.O.C. actually believe that, even though it had heard that pitch before and been burned by it."
Burned by it? I think that all went as planned: the IOC demanded empty PR-speak assurances, got them, and everyone promptly ignored than as intended.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:18 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
" And something made the I.O.C. actually believe that, even though it had heard that pitch before and been burned by it."
Burned by it? I think that all went as planned: the IOC demanded empty PR-speak assurances, got them, and everyone promptly ignored than as intended.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:18 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Fuckit, the Pacific Islanders miss out again
posted by mattoxic at 8:40 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by mattoxic at 8:40 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Where the heck are they going to hold the skiing events? There's no proper mountains for olympic skiing anywhere even remotely close to Beijing.
posted by skewed at 8:45 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by skewed at 8:45 PM on July 31, 2015
The scary part comes when you think through the implications of needing so much artificial snowmaking to put on the Games. The Beijing area is already short on water. There's no way the water and energy required to make that kind of snow will be sustainable beyond a few month period for setup, the Olympics, and the Paralympics. Yet Beijing's bid contemplates turning the alpine center into a ski resort and maintaining the cross country, ski jumping, biathlon, and sliding centers for future use.
Because of the need for all the snowmaking, these venues will either have to close or will be utterly unsustainable. The Olympics are known for leaving white elephants behind, but this would be ridiculous. An entire world-class winter sports complex constructed from scratch that will be only useful for a few months. Legacy and sustainability my ass.
posted by zachlipton at 8:47 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Because of the need for all the snowmaking, these venues will either have to close or will be utterly unsustainable. The Olympics are known for leaving white elephants behind, but this would be ridiculous. An entire world-class winter sports complex constructed from scratch that will be only useful for a few months. Legacy and sustainability my ass.
posted by zachlipton at 8:47 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Speaking as a Masshole Pro Tem I say "And welcome Fahcking to it!"
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:47 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:47 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
The 2016 Olympics will be in Rio de Janeiro, where the water quality is stunningly dangerous. Beijing's air quality is notoriously 'poisonous.' We're sending the fittest athletes to incredibly unhealthy environments.
The rest of us ought to be grateful -- it'll do wonder for the survival of our kind since we'll be killing off the strongest!
posted by mudpuppie at 8:50 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
The rest of us ought to be grateful -- it'll do wonder for the survival of our kind since we'll be killing off the strongest!
posted by mudpuppie at 8:50 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Where the heck are they going to hold the skiing events? There's no proper mountains for olympic skiing anywhere even remotely close to Beijing.
Zhangjiakou, a three hour drive from Beijing.
posted by Talez at 8:51 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Zhangjiakou, a three hour drive from Beijing.
posted by Talez at 8:51 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's telling that the only countries eager to bid on the Olympics are tinpot dictatorships like Kazakhstan and China. The developed world is starting to catch on that two weeks of spotlight is not worth nearly the price.
Which part of that Line do you put London, England on?
posted by srboisvert at 8:58 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Which part of that Line do you put London, England on?
posted by srboisvert at 8:58 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
srboisvert: "Which part of that Line do you put London, England on?"
Yeah, I don't really consider Japan (which will be hosting the 2020 Olympics) to be a "tinpot dictatorship" either.
posted by Bugbread at 9:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I don't really consider Japan (which will be hosting the 2020 Olympics) to be a "tinpot dictatorship" either.
posted by Bugbread at 9:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hubris with Chinese characteristics
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'd be more concerned about the Chinese economy than the Chinese climate if I was the IOC. Better hope those bribes were cash upfront.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 PM on July 31, 2015
I had my Daily Double working for Qatar, so I'm kinda bummed out about this...
posted by Windopaene at 9:12 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 9:12 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be fair, China's more of a cast-iron one.
I'd suggest lead and melamine.
posted by Guy Smiley at 9:22 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'd suggest lead and melamine.
posted by Guy Smiley at 9:22 PM on July 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Lillehammer (1994): -6, -4
Nagano (1998): 3.5, 4.7
Salt Lake City (2002): 3, 6.2
Vancouver (2006): 6.9, 8.2
Torino (2010): 6.6, 9.1
Sochi (2014): 10.3, 10.4
Pyeongchang (2018): -2.5, -0.4
Beijing (2022): 1.8, 5.4
Temperature is a total red herring. Geography matters. Lillehammer, Nagano, SLC, Torino, Van--all surrounded by mountains. Beijing is decidedly not.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:25 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
Nagano (1998): 3.5, 4.7
Salt Lake City (2002): 3, 6.2
Vancouver (2006): 6.9, 8.2
Torino (2010): 6.6, 9.1
Sochi (2014): 10.3, 10.4
Pyeongchang (2018): -2.5, -0.4
Beijing (2022): 1.8, 5.4
Temperature is a total red herring. Geography matters. Lillehammer, Nagano, SLC, Torino, Van--all surrounded by mountains. Beijing is decidedly not.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:25 PM on July 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
qcubed: I think more a combination of desperation and not unreasonable desire for economic improvement.
The PRC, like any other government, requires at least a level of apathetic acceptance of the status quo from its population. In China that's partially maintained by promises of economic growth and an end to grubbing in the dirt peasantry, this requires massive growth and development.
Note that the PRC for quite some time was spending more of its GDP on new construction than any other nation on Earth, and it continues to spend a truly staggering amount on new construction. That's the only way to lift up the still very large population of peasant farmers into something resembling a middle class life.
As in any unfree country, the ruling oligarchy of the PRC, is constantly nervous about the possibility for revolution. China does, after all, have a very long history of governments being ousted after failing to do their jobs.
So fears of long term environmental damage take second place to fears of a revolution spurred in part by people angered that the government is no longer living the people out of abject poverty.
And, frankly, as a hard core environmentalist I find it hard to blame people. Telling someone that while you don't like the idea of them being kept in abject poverty but that it is necessary to do so in order to allow economic growth to be balanced with environmental worries is not going to either make them feel well done by, or you feel all that great.
So the people in the PRC accept horrifically bad air, pollution on a scale that even the USSR couldn't match, in order to have an economy that can pull the nation out of third world shithole status.
Of all the things the PRC government does, I honestly see the least malice and incompetence in their wretched environmental record. I wish I knew the solution.
posted by sotonohito at 9:26 PM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
The PRC, like any other government, requires at least a level of apathetic acceptance of the status quo from its population. In China that's partially maintained by promises of economic growth and an end to grubbing in the dirt peasantry, this requires massive growth and development.
Note that the PRC for quite some time was spending more of its GDP on new construction than any other nation on Earth, and it continues to spend a truly staggering amount on new construction. That's the only way to lift up the still very large population of peasant farmers into something resembling a middle class life.
As in any unfree country, the ruling oligarchy of the PRC, is constantly nervous about the possibility for revolution. China does, after all, have a very long history of governments being ousted after failing to do their jobs.
So fears of long term environmental damage take second place to fears of a revolution spurred in part by people angered that the government is no longer living the people out of abject poverty.
And, frankly, as a hard core environmentalist I find it hard to blame people. Telling someone that while you don't like the idea of them being kept in abject poverty but that it is necessary to do so in order to allow economic growth to be balanced with environmental worries is not going to either make them feel well done by, or you feel all that great.
So the people in the PRC accept horrifically bad air, pollution on a scale that even the USSR couldn't match, in order to have an economy that can pull the nation out of third world shithole status.
Of all the things the PRC government does, I honestly see the least malice and incompetence in their wretched environmental record. I wish I knew the solution.
posted by sotonohito at 9:26 PM on July 31, 2015 [8 favorites]
(I have no idea about Pyeongchang, and deliberately avoided watching anything to do with Sochi because of the whole "hey let's put sexual minorities in jail" thing.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:27 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:27 PM on July 31, 2015
As for the Olympics, the only sensible solution is a permanent Olympic city. That's blindingly obvious, and the only reason it doesn't happen is because the IOC really likes the bribes they get from suckers who want to host the Olympics.
If you thought FIFA was crooked you haven't looked at the IOC.
And that's a shame, because I really love the Olympics.
posted by sotonohito at 9:27 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you thought FIFA was crooked you haven't looked at the IOC.
And that's a shame, because I really love the Olympics.
posted by sotonohito at 9:27 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do it in Antarctica, obviously.
posted by brennen at 9:48 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by brennen at 9:48 PM on July 31, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is Canada not the obvious choice?
posted by Brocktoon at 10:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Brocktoon at 10:02 PM on July 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seriously, this is not rocket science. "We need a permanent Winter Olympics site which is mountainous, guaranteed to be snowy, and does not belong to any specific nation" == Antarctica for Winter Olympics from 2026 until the completion of construction of the permanent Martian North Pole Winter Olympic Village!!
posted by Bugbread at 10:37 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 10:37 PM on July 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Eh. Better Antarctica than us. But on the the hand, if we did host it in Silicon valley, couldn'twe just do a virtual Olympics? Say, on a dedicated Sims server?
posted by happyroach at 11:42 PM on July 31, 2015
posted by happyroach at 11:42 PM on July 31, 2015
As for the Olympics, the only sensible solution is a permanent Olympic city. That's blindingly obvious, and the only reason it doesn't happen is because the IOC really likes the bribes they get from suckers who want to host the Olympics.
I think there's less cynical reasons to move it around. It's meant to be an international competition. But if the same country hosts it each year, that dynamic totally changes. That country gets more financial benefit from the games. That country has a competitive advantage (being able to train on the actual facilities). That country has more administrative influence on every aspect of the games, which since they're also competing, might not be great. That country will spectate in person more, and other countries' participation would likely wane.
That said, I am willing to entertain the idea that what we really need is in fact for the Olympics to shrink down, and making most countries care less is one way to do that.
posted by aubilenon at 11:49 PM on July 31, 2015
I think there's less cynical reasons to move it around. It's meant to be an international competition. But if the same country hosts it each year, that dynamic totally changes. That country gets more financial benefit from the games. That country has a competitive advantage (being able to train on the actual facilities). That country has more administrative influence on every aspect of the games, which since they're also competing, might not be great. That country will spectate in person more, and other countries' participation would likely wane.
That said, I am willing to entertain the idea that what we really need is in fact for the Olympics to shrink down, and making most countries care less is one way to do that.
posted by aubilenon at 11:49 PM on July 31, 2015
Yeah, there are a lot of problems with having the Olympics in Beijing or Pyeongchang, but "there's no winter" is not one of them.
posted by Bugbread at 12:18 AM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 12:18 AM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can get a sense of what we've lost (alternatively, what the IOC has screwed up) by watching old films. I recommend Flame in the Snow, the official film of the 1960 Winter Olympics at Squaw Valley.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 2:43 AM on August 1, 2015
posted by LastOfHisKind at 2:43 AM on August 1, 2015
So is IOC like the minor leagues for promotion to FIFA, or is it the other way around?
posted by Justinian at 2:47 AM on August 1, 2015
posted by Justinian at 2:47 AM on August 1, 2015
Rename Greece Olympia and hold the summer games there permanently.
It's a two birds one stone thing.
posted by fullerine at 3:14 AM on August 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's a two birds one stone thing.
posted by fullerine at 3:14 AM on August 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think there's less cynical reasons to move it around. It's meant to be an international competition. But if the same country hosts it each year, that dynamic totally changes. That country gets more financial benefit from the games. That country has a competitive advantage (being able to train on the actual facilities). That country has more administrative influence on every aspect of the games, which since they're also competing, might not be great. That country will spectate in person more, and other countries' participation would likely wane.
Which is why I've suggested more than once that you designate a permanent physical location, and rotate 'hosting' duties between different countries.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:52 AM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which is why I've suggested more than once that you designate a permanent physical location, and rotate 'hosting' duties between different countries.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:52 AM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's going to be fun in the coal-smog, that's for sure. I know Kazakhstan is hardly prepared for a big event like this, but surely it's better than doing two Beijings so close together.
It could even benefit more from tourism than more conventional countries.
posted by Trifling at 4:43 AM on August 1, 2015
It could even benefit more from tourism than more conventional countries.
posted by Trifling at 4:43 AM on August 1, 2015
Is the smog better or worse in the winter in Beijing?
My experience is that it's worse in the winter, but that's based on having more visible and smellable ground-level pollution from coal smoke than in the summer. The actual chemical makeup might be more harmful in the summer; I don't know. The coal smoke I'm talking about takes forms like dense, impenetrable clouds on the road from the airport that cause horrific car accidents, and daytime visibility of less than 1/4 mile in the city. And you can smell it anytime you go outside or open a window.
I think the idea of a permanent venue has a lot of merit. I wouldn't put it in China or any other major-power country, though. They'd just nationalize the whole thing. My preference would be to have it in someplace that has both summer and winter, but is not contained by a large country. I don't have a specific nomination for that place. The Falkland Islands don't seem to be cold enough for winter sports, but otherwise, someplace like that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:55 AM on August 1, 2015
My experience is that it's worse in the winter, but that's based on having more visible and smellable ground-level pollution from coal smoke than in the summer. The actual chemical makeup might be more harmful in the summer; I don't know. The coal smoke I'm talking about takes forms like dense, impenetrable clouds on the road from the airport that cause horrific car accidents, and daytime visibility of less than 1/4 mile in the city. And you can smell it anytime you go outside or open a window.
I think the idea of a permanent venue has a lot of merit. I wouldn't put it in China or any other major-power country, though. They'd just nationalize the whole thing. My preference would be to have it in someplace that has both summer and winter, but is not contained by a large country. I don't have a specific nomination for that place. The Falkland Islands don't seem to be cold enough for winter sports, but otherwise, someplace like that.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:55 AM on August 1, 2015
Switzerland? It does have a literal alpine climate and a long history of political neutrality. Plus IOC crooks don't even have to leave the country to hide their illicit money.
posted by indubitable at 5:51 AM on August 1, 2015
posted by indubitable at 5:51 AM on August 1, 2015
Toronto just finished hosting the Pan Am Games and as long as news coverage like this exists [Toronto Star], there will always be a desire to host large-scale sporting/ceremonies of this style.
posted by Fizz at 6:00 AM on August 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
A new study suggests people -— particularly tourists — spent more money in downtown Toronto and near Pan Am venues during the Games compared with the same period last year. The study by the payment processing company Moneris is based on debit and credit card transactions between July 10 and 26. While the study doesn't include cash purchases, the company says it gives a general sense of spending during the international competition. It says people spent nearly eight per cent more in downtown Toronto. Spending on international cards, however, rose by close to 19 per cent. Entertainment was a big draw, with people spending just over 53 per cent more -- and international visitors spending about 260 per cent more.It's all about the money, status, & political points.
posted by Fizz at 6:00 AM on August 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
it is a crazy city, though not half as crazy as Astana.
January, February average high temp for Almaty and Astana:
Almaty .7, 2.2
Astana -9.9, -9.2
There's correlation causation and this. Astana is brutal in winter. The winter olympics is never going to be in Astana.
posted by bukvich at 6:01 AM on August 1, 2015
January, February average high temp for Almaty and Astana:
Almaty .7, 2.2
Astana -9.9, -9.2
There's correlation causation and this. Astana is brutal in winter. The winter olympics is never going to be in Astana.
posted by bukvich at 6:01 AM on August 1, 2015
I mean, I guess if Pyeongchang's average low in Jan-Feb isn't good enough at -12.6C/-10.5C, I guess it doesn't count as a winter?
Note that these stats are almost always complied at a spot near the center of a city, often at an airport. Most of the sports requiring snow are held up in mountains areas that are at a significantly higher elevation, which means at a significantly lower average temperature -- and we're talking often 10C lower, or even more.
Note that of all the cities listed, the two that had trouble with snow were Vancouver and Sochi, Vancouver being subject to an abnormally warm and dry spell and Sochi being, well Sochi. Both were able, however, to make snow and run the snow events in the mountains.
As to Pyeongchang? Unless the weather condition are particularly bizarre, and it could happen, I think they won't have a problem with lack of winter. Indeed, the risk is the other direction, that they would have a two-sigma too cold, or worse, too snowy winter and become cutoff. Note, by definition, two-sigma risks are small ones. But at least they can hold the game in one spot.
Beijing is holding the games in three. Beijing proper (Ceremonies, hockey, skating, curling, and the olympic village), Yanqing, 60 miles away (Alpine skiing, bobsled, luge, skelton) and Zhangjiakou, 140 miles away (Cross country skiing, Nordic combined skiing, ski jump, biathlon, snowboard, freestyle skiing.)
So, you know, if I could define Chicago as including things like Milwaukee and the Wisconsin Dells, sure, a Winter Olympics in Chicago could work, and the very thought is making me punchy again so I'll stop.
posted by eriko at 7:08 AM on August 1, 2015
Note that these stats are almost always complied at a spot near the center of a city, often at an airport. Most of the sports requiring snow are held up in mountains areas that are at a significantly higher elevation, which means at a significantly lower average temperature -- and we're talking often 10C lower, or even more.
Note that of all the cities listed, the two that had trouble with snow were Vancouver and Sochi, Vancouver being subject to an abnormally warm and dry spell and Sochi being, well Sochi. Both were able, however, to make snow and run the snow events in the mountains.
As to Pyeongchang? Unless the weather condition are particularly bizarre, and it could happen, I think they won't have a problem with lack of winter. Indeed, the risk is the other direction, that they would have a two-sigma too cold, or worse, too snowy winter and become cutoff. Note, by definition, two-sigma risks are small ones. But at least they can hold the game in one spot.
Beijing is holding the games in three. Beijing proper (Ceremonies, hockey, skating, curling, and the olympic village), Yanqing, 60 miles away (Alpine skiing, bobsled, luge, skelton) and Zhangjiakou, 140 miles away (Cross country skiing, Nordic combined skiing, ski jump, biathlon, snowboard, freestyle skiing.)
So, you know, if I could define Chicago as including things like Milwaukee and the Wisconsin Dells, sure, a Winter Olympics in Chicago could work, and the very thought is making me punchy again so I'll stop.
posted by eriko at 7:08 AM on August 1, 2015
Which is why I've suggested more than once that you designate a permanent physical location, and rotate 'hosting' duties between different countries.
What would those hosting duties entail? If the event was in Canada, no other country's hotels and restaurants could get more business because they're remotely "hosting" the games, their athletes couldn't know the terrain and conditions as well as the Canadians, nor could the athletes or spectators avoid long travel times, and they's have to negotiate with Canada for every single step of making it a successful event, immigration, traffic, construction, law enforcement, information services. And it still would be very very difficult to make it a genuine cultural event for any foreign host.
posted by aubilenon at 2:26 PM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
What would those hosting duties entail? If the event was in Canada, no other country's hotels and restaurants could get more business because they're remotely "hosting" the games, their athletes couldn't know the terrain and conditions as well as the Canadians, nor could the athletes or spectators avoid long travel times, and they's have to negotiate with Canada for every single step of making it a successful event, immigration, traffic, construction, law enforcement, information services. And it still would be very very difficult to make it a genuine cultural event for any foreign host.
posted by aubilenon at 2:26 PM on August 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Here's the 2022 Winter Olympics Venue, In The Middle of Winter
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:07 PM on August 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:07 PM on August 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
What would those hosting duties entail?
Opening/closing ceremonies, master control of broadcasts, look and feel of signage/all visual collateral. Design of medals. I babbled about this in the recent thread about Boston's withdrawal. Divide funding between all countries participating, perhaps on the basis of how many athletes from a given country participated in the last Games. (Or just have the 'host' take over funding for four years.)
In my dream world the easiest way to do this would be to designate an exclave like Vatican City or similar. Obviously difficulties around corruption would be rife. It's a pipe dream, not something that's ever going to happen.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:02 PM on August 1, 2015
Opening/closing ceremonies, master control of broadcasts, look and feel of signage/all visual collateral. Design of medals. I babbled about this in the recent thread about Boston's withdrawal. Divide funding between all countries participating, perhaps on the basis of how many athletes from a given country participated in the last Games. (Or just have the 'host' take over funding for four years.)
In my dream world the easiest way to do this would be to designate an exclave like Vatican City or similar. Obviously difficulties around corruption would be rife. It's a pipe dream, not something that's ever going to happen.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:02 PM on August 1, 2015
"The winter olympics is never going to be in Astana."
I'm not suggesting it should! Almaty is a real city, albeit a moderately crazy one due to Soviet and post-Soviet city planning of the weirder sort. Astana, the new capital, is a BAT SHIT INSANE city full of marble buildings and epic-scale architecture that goes totally unused and exists as a Potemkin Imperial City for the Greater Glory of the tin-pot russian-puppet dictator. There are LITERAL TOWERS OF GOLD and these huge-scale parks and plazas that are so big you can't traverse them on foot. They sized way, way up the Tulieries, for example, to the point that nobody could walk across it. Less than a million people live there, and its less dense than Houston, and there are basically no jobs at all. It's one of those weird ghost cities like in China, except all built on such a gargantuan, triumphalist scale that it appear intended for humans twice our size.
Astana has just so thoroughly stolen the mantle of "craziest place in Kazakhstan" that I didn't want anyone to think I was failing to appreciate Almaty's lesser, more traditional craziness, that is far less notable in the face of the, "Wow, we CAN built an entire city of monuments for giants using petrodollars, who knew?" insanity of Astana.
I mean, definitely don't host anything in Astana, there's nobody there, nothing to buy, and the public infrastructure works as well as you'd expect in a city built for TENS of millions with just 800,000 unemployed bureaucrats in it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:38 PM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm not suggesting it should! Almaty is a real city, albeit a moderately crazy one due to Soviet and post-Soviet city planning of the weirder sort. Astana, the new capital, is a BAT SHIT INSANE city full of marble buildings and epic-scale architecture that goes totally unused and exists as a Potemkin Imperial City for the Greater Glory of the tin-pot russian-puppet dictator. There are LITERAL TOWERS OF GOLD and these huge-scale parks and plazas that are so big you can't traverse them on foot. They sized way, way up the Tulieries, for example, to the point that nobody could walk across it. Less than a million people live there, and its less dense than Houston, and there are basically no jobs at all. It's one of those weird ghost cities like in China, except all built on such a gargantuan, triumphalist scale that it appear intended for humans twice our size.
Astana has just so thoroughly stolen the mantle of "craziest place in Kazakhstan" that I didn't want anyone to think I was failing to appreciate Almaty's lesser, more traditional craziness, that is far less notable in the face of the, "Wow, we CAN built an entire city of monuments for giants using petrodollars, who knew?" insanity of Astana.
I mean, definitely don't host anything in Astana, there's nobody there, nothing to buy, and the public infrastructure works as well as you'd expect in a city built for TENS of millions with just 800,000 unemployed bureaucrats in it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:38 PM on August 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here's the 2022 Winter Olympics Venue, In The Middle of Winter
To be even more clear, that photo comes from the IOC's own bid evaluation report. It's dated from the end of January 2015. They went out there, took that picture of a dirt covered mountain in the heart of winter, and said "yes, we agree this is a good place for the downhill skiing events."
posted by zachlipton at 12:00 AM on August 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
To be even more clear, that photo comes from the IOC's own bid evaluation report. It's dated from the end of January 2015. They went out there, took that picture of a dirt covered mountain in the heart of winter, and said "yes, we agree this is a good place for the downhill skiing events."
posted by zachlipton at 12:00 AM on August 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Now all I want to do is visit Astana.
Also, ugh, I wish famous athletes in popular sports would start boycotting the Olympics.
posted by Ragini at 1:11 AM on August 2, 2015
Also, ugh, I wish famous athletes in popular sports would start boycotting the Olympics.
posted by Ragini at 1:11 AM on August 2, 2015
As for the Olympics, the only sensible solution is a permanent Olympic city. That's blindingly obvious, and the only reason it doesn't happen is because the IOC really likes the bribes they get from suckers who want to host the Olympics.
Uh - I thought it was always the point that the Olympics (to some extent, the World Cups) are not permanent, and are economic-political devices masquerading as sports events.
Your country hosts the Olympics, and you have the world's biggest excuse for power and money expounded on new infrastructure projects that can pierce through any domestic politics. You have a guarantee of tourists and tourism spending, you have the potential to attract more tourism in the future as the social/business infrastructure to handle tourism becomes solidified, everyone is on their best behavior and you get good press, etc.
The Olympics themselves are kind secondary to the entire endeavor; making the Olympics permanent would benefit only the athletes, and the sports, and the viewers...
posted by suedehead at 2:12 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Uh - I thought it was always the point that the Olympics (to some extent, the World Cups) are not permanent, and are economic-political devices masquerading as sports events.
Your country hosts the Olympics, and you have the world's biggest excuse for power and money expounded on new infrastructure projects that can pierce through any domestic politics. You have a guarantee of tourists and tourism spending, you have the potential to attract more tourism in the future as the social/business infrastructure to handle tourism becomes solidified, everyone is on their best behavior and you get good press, etc.
The Olympics themselves are kind secondary to the entire endeavor; making the Olympics permanent would benefit only the athletes, and the sports, and the viewers...
posted by suedehead at 2:12 AM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
given that the town is barely 50k in population...
Which makes it, oh, basically twice the population of Lillehammer, Norway.
My only problem with Pyeongchang is that it's a darn funny looking name when rendered in English. I freely admit this is a problem with English.
IOW, I think Pyeongchang is a fine place to hold the darn thing, presuming they actually want to hold the darn thing.
Deadspin has a picture, in January no less, of our "in Beijing" Alpine Skiing Area. One will note A) the compete and utter lack of snow in the actual skiing area, B) the complete and utter lack of snow anywhere nearby and C) well, the completely and utter lack of, um, anything at all, really. Though to be fair, the scale of the picture is such that small roads and such would be hard to spot.
But yeah, this is a very cold aird desert. This isn't going to use snow machines to make sure there's a good snow pack if there's light snow fall. This has to make every single inch of snow, and it has to take that water from somewhere else.
That's how desperate the IOC was on this bid. It was either a very small third world country with almost no infrastructure, or Beijing trying to host the Winter Olympics without snow, and the other guys almost won.
posted by eriko at 9:35 AM on August 2, 2015
Which makes it, oh, basically twice the population of Lillehammer, Norway.
My only problem with Pyeongchang is that it's a darn funny looking name when rendered in English. I freely admit this is a problem with English.
IOW, I think Pyeongchang is a fine place to hold the darn thing, presuming they actually want to hold the darn thing.
Deadspin has a picture, in January no less, of our "in Beijing" Alpine Skiing Area. One will note A) the compete and utter lack of snow in the actual skiing area, B) the complete and utter lack of snow anywhere nearby and C) well, the completely and utter lack of, um, anything at all, really. Though to be fair, the scale of the picture is such that small roads and such would be hard to spot.
But yeah, this is a very cold aird desert. This isn't going to use snow machines to make sure there's a good snow pack if there's light snow fall. This has to make every single inch of snow, and it has to take that water from somewhere else.
That's how desperate the IOC was on this bid. It was either a very small third world country with almost no infrastructure, or Beijing trying to host the Winter Olympics without snow, and the other guys almost won.
posted by eriko at 9:35 AM on August 2, 2015
The international ski racing body, FIS, actually specifies quantifiable standards for how big a mountain has to be to host a top class ski race.
The elevation difference between the start and finish point on the course must be between 800m and 1050m. They allow a shorter course of 750m in some "exceptional cases".
This requirement is why a lot of places like New Zealand, Japan, and the east coast of North America will always have difficulty hosting a winter olympics. The mountains are just too small. In Nagano, even the biggest ski resort in Japan still had to install a whole new chairlift at the top of the resort, to create a ski run long enough for the downhill race.
South Korea does have mountains, and it's definitely cold enough, like Japan it gets prevailing wind straight off the Siberian interior in winter. While it doesn't have much natural snowfall, it has excellent conditions for artificial snowmaking. I think they'll pull it off.
The Beijing skiing venue, on the other hand, looks like fantasy.
posted by other barry at 8:39 PM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The elevation difference between the start and finish point on the course must be between 800m and 1050m. They allow a shorter course of 750m in some "exceptional cases".
This requirement is why a lot of places like New Zealand, Japan, and the east coast of North America will always have difficulty hosting a winter olympics. The mountains are just too small. In Nagano, even the biggest ski resort in Japan still had to install a whole new chairlift at the top of the resort, to create a ski run long enough for the downhill race.
South Korea does have mountains, and it's definitely cold enough, like Japan it gets prevailing wind straight off the Siberian interior in winter. While it doesn't have much natural snowfall, it has excellent conditions for artificial snowmaking. I think they'll pull it off.
The Beijing skiing venue, on the other hand, looks like fantasy.
posted by other barry at 8:39 PM on August 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
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