One monster tries to heal you with lava. Another is simply depressed.
September 26, 2015 12:42 PM Subscribe
Laura Hudson at Boing Boing has a thoughtful, in-depth review of Undertale, the new RPG by Toby “Radiation” Fox, the creator of the new RPG Undertale. (Kickstarter) The game was inspired by the Shin Megami Tensai franchise and Earthbound. All combat can be resolved through pacifist means, and the consequences of subsequent playthroughs stack and change the environment. In her review, Hudson compares playing the game to the classic spider-man piñata video –at least, if you want it to be.
Polygon has a playthrough video for the first ninety minutes. Ben Davis at Destructoid and Austin Walker at Giant Bomb have posted reviews as well.
Polygon has a playthrough video for the first ninety minutes. Ben Davis at Destructoid and Austin Walker at Giant Bomb have posted reviews as well.
Can you elaborate? Hussie wasn’t mentioned in the BoingBoing article, so I didn’t bring him up. I’m aware of Homestuck, but as yet have zero plans to read beyond the few acts that I read so am not aware of later developments.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:59 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 12:59 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
mint, a Twitter/Twitch personality whose stream I follow sometimes, played some of this a few day. It looked very interesting, but....
But one of those games where it's obvious, you should never choose fight? I mean, I always go the non-violent route in games when I can already. Is this another version of the Bioshock "choice" to harvest or rescue Little Sisters? Sure, you can destroy them, but unless you're the sort of person who kicks puppies, why would you?
posted by JHarris at 1:10 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
But one of those games where it's obvious, you should never choose fight? I mean, I always go the non-violent route in games when I can already. Is this another version of the Bioshock "choice" to harvest or rescue Little Sisters? Sure, you can destroy them, but unless you're the sort of person who kicks puppies, why would you?
posted by JHarris at 1:10 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
But one of those games where it's obvious, you should never choose fight? I mean, I always go the non-violent route in games when I can already. Is this another version of the Bioshock "choice" to harvest or rescue Little Sisters? Sure, you can destroy them, but unless you're the sort of person who kicks puppies, why would you?
The Destructoid article goes more into the specific mechanics of violence versus non-violence. I think that the Little Sisters example is a bad one- it’s a crap ethical system that essentially rewards you with good feelings for doing the right thing, and gets into the muddy waters of “why should I be considered a bad person if I rightfully consider this little to just be a bunch of 3D animations created to manipulate my feelings?”
The challenge is getting beyond that; something like Fire Emblem, which as I understand it forces you to fight a battle against another party that you controlled earlier in the game (and thus bonded with a little through actual experience), gets closer to actually doing something interesting with the mechanic. There are also plenty of people who play Mass Effect, KoToR, etc. for the hardcore evil runs. I don’t enjoy it, but some people like to watch the virtual world burn - or like to pretend that they like to watch the virtual world burn.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:28 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
The Destructoid article goes more into the specific mechanics of violence versus non-violence. I think that the Little Sisters example is a bad one- it’s a crap ethical system that essentially rewards you with good feelings for doing the right thing, and gets into the muddy waters of “why should I be considered a bad person if I rightfully consider this little to just be a bunch of 3D animations created to manipulate my feelings?”
The challenge is getting beyond that; something like Fire Emblem, which as I understand it forces you to fight a battle against another party that you controlled earlier in the game (and thus bonded with a little through actual experience), gets closer to actually doing something interesting with the mechanic. There are also plenty of people who play Mass Effect, KoToR, etc. for the hardcore evil runs. I don’t enjoy it, but some people like to watch the virtual world burn - or like to pretend that they like to watch the virtual world burn.
posted by Going To Maine at 1:28 PM on September 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's hard to talk about the game without spoilers, and it's my GOTY so I recommend just playing it, but the game is absolutely *about* the Bioshock-morality-choice in games, not just another instance of it.
posted by xiw at 1:36 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by xiw at 1:36 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
That might not have been the best way of phrasing it, there's not a really clear delineation between MSPA and the community around it, and this guy seems like a big deal member of that community in a way where the influence is probably reciprocal.
I guess I'm considering MSPA as a clear precedent in experimenting with ideas of meaningful complexity and empathy in video games, and it seems at first glance like this has inherited some of the tone and tropes and styles developed there.
posted by Nomiconic at 1:45 PM on September 26, 2015
I guess I'm considering MSPA as a clear precedent in experimenting with ideas of meaningful complexity and empathy in video games, and it seems at first glance like this has inherited some of the tone and tropes and styles developed there.
posted by Nomiconic at 1:45 PM on September 26, 2015
I bought it based on this review alone. This guy deserves my money even if I never get around to playing his game.
posted by hat_eater at 2:29 PM on September 26, 2015
posted by hat_eater at 2:29 PM on September 26, 2015
The challenge is getting beyond that; something like Fire Emblem, which as I understand it forces you to fight a battle against another party that you controlled earlier in the game (and thus bonded with a little through actual experience), gets closer to actually doing something interesting with the mechanic. There are also plenty of people who play Mass Effect, KoToR, etc. for the hardcore evil runs. I don’t enjoy it, but some people like to watch the virtual world burn - or like to pretend that they like to watch the virtual world burn.
The JRPg Lost Dimension is also interesting with regards to the ethics of gaming, in that it forces you to vote and kill off a single team member before you advance each level. It has a kind of Survivor-esque 'Tribe Council' where you can manipulate your other team members into voting for specific people. And some members of your team will trust you more than others based on how you play the game and choices you make.
posted by Fizz at 2:39 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The JRPg Lost Dimension is also interesting with regards to the ethics of gaming, in that it forces you to vote and kill off a single team member before you advance each level. It has a kind of Survivor-esque 'Tribe Council' where you can manipulate your other team members into voting for specific people. And some members of your team will trust you more than others based on how you play the game and choices you make.
posted by Fizz at 2:39 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was so waiting for an FPP for this (because I loved this game, but didn't think I would be able to frame an FPP well). To respond to a comment:
Can you elaborate? Hussie wasn’t mentioned in the BoingBoing article, so I didn’t bring him up. I’m aware of Homestuck, but as yet have zero plans to read beyond the few acts that I read so am not aware of later developments.
Toby Fox worked on a lot of the music in Homestuck. There are a few musical homages to it (as well as one song in particular that Toby puts in all of his works), some of the humor has a "similar" feel, and a few characters in Undertale are (debatably) similar to a few Homestuck characters. But you absolutely do not have to be familiar with or like Homestuck to like this.
- - -
Anyway, the one thing I like about this game is that it seems Toby really thought of *everything*. As others have mentioned, it's difficult to discuss too many specifics without spoiling, but the game takes the standard tropes about how gamers typically play games and makes several comments on it. I mean, there's a certain playstyle that I could not bear to play, but just to see what would happen, I watched a Youtube video of it...and a certain character in the game absolutely berates people who would rather watch than do it themselves. It was just so devastating, but also so clever. There are certain items that you can get and think nothing of (or use them/get rid of them very early on in the game), but if you keep them, they can come in handy later on...at the same time, Toby isn't necessarily punishing you for using or getting rid of these items -- the game never becomes "unwinnable". (Although there are some things that happen that I will not spoil that definitely push certain boundaries.)
posted by subversiveasset at 2:48 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can you elaborate? Hussie wasn’t mentioned in the BoingBoing article, so I didn’t bring him up. I’m aware of Homestuck, but as yet have zero plans to read beyond the few acts that I read so am not aware of later developments.
Toby Fox worked on a lot of the music in Homestuck. There are a few musical homages to it (as well as one song in particular that Toby puts in all of his works), some of the humor has a "similar" feel, and a few characters in Undertale are (debatably) similar to a few Homestuck characters. But you absolutely do not have to be familiar with or like Homestuck to like this.
- - -
Anyway, the one thing I like about this game is that it seems Toby really thought of *everything*. As others have mentioned, it's difficult to discuss too many specifics without spoiling, but the game takes the standard tropes about how gamers typically play games and makes several comments on it. I mean, there's a certain playstyle that I could not bear to play, but just to see what would happen, I watched a Youtube video of it...and a certain character in the game absolutely berates people who would rather watch than do it themselves. It was just so devastating, but also so clever. There are certain items that you can get and think nothing of (or use them/get rid of them very early on in the game), but if you keep them, they can come in handy later on...at the same time, Toby isn't necessarily punishing you for using or getting rid of these items -- the game never becomes "unwinnable". (Although there are some things that happen that I will not spoil that definitely push certain boundaries.)
posted by subversiveasset at 2:48 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Definitely my GOTY, potentially my favorite game of all time. I could return to Undertale's universe anytime, feeling as wide-eyed and fresh as when I first stepped into it.
Regarding the fighting/non-fighting issue, whatever choice you make is yours, but each path you can go down is SERIOUSLY fascinating, and reveals a different facet of the story and the characters. I don't think I have the heart to do a genocide run (or the skill, to be honest), but having watched a genocide playthrough, I can say I learned so much more about certain characters, who gained an incredible amount of depth when pushed into awful circumstances.
Also, Toby Fox treats queer characters like regular characters! And has a great self-deprecating sense of humor! And really likes dogs I mean dang the dude knows his dog humor.
I didn't mean for this comment to get this long. Basically, Undertale is great on every level, from in-game to in real life.
posted by brecc at 2:50 PM on September 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
Regarding the fighting/non-fighting issue, whatever choice you make is yours, but each path you can go down is SERIOUSLY fascinating, and reveals a different facet of the story and the characters. I don't think I have the heart to do a genocide run (or the skill, to be honest), but having watched a genocide playthrough, I can say I learned so much more about certain characters, who gained an incredible amount of depth when pushed into awful circumstances.
Also, Toby Fox treats queer characters like regular characters! And has a great self-deprecating sense of humor! And really likes dogs I mean dang the dude knows his dog humor.
I didn't mean for this comment to get this long. Basically, Undertale is great on every level, from in-game to in real life.
posted by brecc at 2:50 PM on September 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
brecc, long comments are fine!
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 2:58 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter: long comments are fine!
posted by Fizz at 3:03 PM on September 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 3:03 PM on September 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm unemployed and hate games, and even I'm considering spending $10 on this.
posted by clvrmnky at 4:04 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clvrmnky at 4:04 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
There’s a demo, so you could give it a spin. That’s my plan, until I cave.
posted by Going To Maine at 4:47 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 4:47 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
I like the non-violent option, and have been known to pursue it in games (pacifist Deus Ex: Human Revolution for the hard-fought for win) many times, but the review does make it sound like a rather dull morality play.
I think a lot of it comes from the way the review is written - as if the concept of, hey, think of your enemies in a game as actual people, comes across as mind-blowingly new. I got the impression that she thinks gamers would mindlessly kill anything they come across until someone holds up a copy of the game and softly says, "There's a better way..."
Not to mention that there's already a whole swathe of adventure games predicated on non-violent conflict resolution in the adventure game canon. From the way people describe it here there must be more to it - the review doesn't make clear whether you only get a minigame if you fight, for example - and I know if I were to play it I'd be very unlikely to kill anything if I could avoid it. But I've found there's a difference between a game being fun and just being an interesting thought experiment, and the review made it seem much more of the latter than the former.
posted by gadge emeritus at 5:44 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think a lot of it comes from the way the review is written - as if the concept of, hey, think of your enemies in a game as actual people, comes across as mind-blowingly new. I got the impression that she thinks gamers would mindlessly kill anything they come across until someone holds up a copy of the game and softly says, "There's a better way..."
Not to mention that there's already a whole swathe of adventure games predicated on non-violent conflict resolution in the adventure game canon. From the way people describe it here there must be more to it - the review doesn't make clear whether you only get a minigame if you fight, for example - and I know if I were to play it I'd be very unlikely to kill anything if I could avoid it. But I've found there's a difference between a game being fun and just being an interesting thought experiment, and the review made it seem much more of the latter than the former.
posted by gadge emeritus at 5:44 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a longterm gamer who's played a whole lot of games with nonlethal options, Undertale is doing something interesting and worth looking at, and it's left me thinking about it a whole lot over the last week. The problem is that you can't really talk about it without mad spoilers for things you really want to be surprised by if you're the kind of person who wants to think about it at length.
posted by xiw at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by xiw at 6:58 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
You're saying we need video games on Fanfare! It's a good idea.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 7:00 PM on September 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
The problem is that you can't really talk about it without mad spoilers for things you really want to be surprised by if you're the kind of person who wants to think about it at length.
That sounds like part of the issue - people love the game a lot, but want others to jump into it with as much discovery as possible, which means they have to be vague about it. And that vagueness can come off as appreciation only of the idea that you don't have to fight the monsters, rather than there really is more to the game than choosing to talk instead of fight.
I've played quite a few smaller, often in-browser, games that have tried something of this nature, so the concept alone isn't enough to hook me - and the initial review talking about it as if it was a revelatory choice to talk to the monsters, like the player had been raised in the in-game world of not even thinking about not killing a monster before, wasn't encouraging. But reading all the other opinions is making it sound less ... obvious, I guess. And much more interesting.
posted by gadge emeritus at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2015
That sounds like part of the issue - people love the game a lot, but want others to jump into it with as much discovery as possible, which means they have to be vague about it. And that vagueness can come off as appreciation only of the idea that you don't have to fight the monsters, rather than there really is more to the game than choosing to talk instead of fight.
I've played quite a few smaller, often in-browser, games that have tried something of this nature, so the concept alone isn't enough to hook me - and the initial review talking about it as if it was a revelatory choice to talk to the monsters, like the player had been raised in the in-game world of not even thinking about not killing a monster before, wasn't encouraging. But reading all the other opinions is making it sound less ... obvious, I guess. And much more interesting.
posted by gadge emeritus at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2015
I consider the 10/10s from The Jimquisition, Destructoid, and Giant Bomb as pretty good endorsements, but that’s me. Also, I like minigames, and combat / combat-avoidance seems to be centered on minigames.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:10 PM on September 26, 2015
posted by Going To Maine at 8:10 PM on September 26, 2015
Not to mention that there's already a whole swathe of adventure games predicated on non-violent conflict resolution in the adventure game canon. From the way people describe it here there must be more to it - the review doesn't make clear whether you only get a minigame if you fight, for example - and I know if I were to play it I'd be very unlikely to kill anything if I could avoid it.
You play the "bullet hell" minigame regardless of if you're fighting or peaceful, and you only get xp -- and therefore levels and therefore more hitpoints -- from killing. So going for the peaceful path is by no means a trivial choice.
posted by rifflesby at 9:23 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
You play the "bullet hell" minigame regardless of if you're fighting or peaceful, and you only get xp -- and therefore levels and therefore more hitpoints -- from killing. So going for the peaceful path is by no means a trivial choice.
posted by rifflesby at 9:23 PM on September 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to say I've never seen that Spider Man piñata video before; it is the sweetest thing ever.
posted by spacewaitress at 7:23 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by spacewaitress at 7:23 AM on September 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Does anybody know if there are any plans to release this game for Android? I really want to play it, but would especially like to play it on my tablet so I can bring it along with me places. Not sure if I should wait for that or not, and I can't find any useful info online ...
posted by DingoMutt at 10:39 AM on September 27, 2015
posted by DingoMutt at 10:39 AM on September 27, 2015
DingoMutt: It's made in GameMaker, so it's not impossible to port to Android, but the game does some funky stuff towards the endgame which may not translate well.
posted by brecc at 12:38 PM on September 27, 2015
posted by brecc at 12:38 PM on September 27, 2015
Ah, good to know - thanks, brecc. That doesn't sound super-promising so I think I'll go ahead and plunk down my $10 to Steam now!
posted by DingoMutt at 12:44 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by DingoMutt at 12:44 PM on September 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm about an hour into this game and really enjoying it so far. With the exception of the fact that I'm royally terrible at bullet hell, which I imagine will become more and more of an impediment as I progress.
posted by Gordafarin at 1:10 AM on September 28, 2015
posted by Gordafarin at 1:10 AM on September 28, 2015
I have considerable personal experience with GameMaker and can answer this one. GM maker YoYo offers an Android export package for an additional fee. (That package was available for $12 in the Humble Weekly Bundle just last week.) Whether it would run well in Android is up in the air, but what I've seen of Undertale so far suggests that it doesn't do much an Android device couldn't handle.
posted by JHarris at 1:33 AM on September 28, 2015
posted by JHarris at 1:33 AM on September 28, 2015
I started this game yesterday, and I immediately fell in love with it. It's on track for my game of the year even within the first couple hours.
posted by naju at 12:53 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 12:53 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I didn't expect to fall down a rabbit hole of Undertale rap mashups today, and yet here we are...
posted by sparkletone at 2:37 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 2:37 PM on September 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one who reads Papyrus' dialog in Skeletor's voice?
posted by ShawnStruck at 9:19 AM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ShawnStruck at 9:19 AM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well you aren't anymore...
posted by sparkletone at 3:23 PM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sparkletone at 3:23 PM on September 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Stupid tone deafness for in-game pianos!
posted by Going To Maine at 8:57 PM on September 29, 2015
posted by Going To Maine at 8:57 PM on September 29, 2015
Because I think somebody said Undertale rap mashups. (Plus whatever this is and whatever this is and this thing and oh jeez what and I'm not even trying to find all these and I think this one is smash mouth? and this game has been out for literally two weeks and what even is all of this)
posted by brecc at 9:22 PM on September 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by brecc at 9:22 PM on September 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
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posted by Nomiconic at 12:53 PM on September 26, 2015 [2 favorites]