what makes a good community?

October 14, 2015 4:40 AM

what makes a good community?

The thing is, reaching the goal of a diverse community is a step-by-step process. There are no shortcuts. Each step has to be complete before the next level of cultural change is effective. It’s also worth noting that each step along the way benefits all community members, not just diverse contributors.

Sarah Sharp writes about community building, shortly after her recent departure from linux kernel development.
posted by and they trembled before her fury (23 comments total)

(and, matthew garrett writes about his departure from linux kernel development, as well.)
posted by and they trembled before her fury at 4:45 AM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]

I have recently disengaged from an open source project because the leader felt that his need to be a jerk outweighed anything else. This set a tone for the entire project.

You know what? Repeating the same ad hominems and complaining about newbies the same damn way is bike-shedding of the highest order.

I'll use Linux even though it sucks sometimes, as does os x, but I'm no longer interested in being disappointed by so called communities anymore.

Even Arch Linux has a good code of conduct, and they pile on with the best of them. It's sad and disrespectful and doesn't actually mean Arch gets better.

And before we get all snobby here, from where I'm standing this whole industry sucks. The whole computer biz has solidified into young white male hero worship.
posted by clvrmnky at 6:12 AM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]

I believe Linux, BSD, GNU, etc. are now in the most precarious position they've ever faced. There are just so many better ideas about how to do things today :
- Rust is the only language since C that's actually designed for systems programing. And it blows the pants off all pre-existing languages.
- Capability based security is much better understood today. And the new mobile user-interfaces look amenable.
- We need good crypto built into many things from the ground up.
- Cap'n proto suggests a kind of maturity developing in data interchange formats.
And I'd imagine the micro-kernel folks have learned at least something since Linux owned them.

There is not one idea that says "Oh yes, we must replace Linux and/or GNU libc to achieve blah", but the shear number of far better ideas suggest a real technological threat to the existing software ecosystems coming in the next decade or something.

In other words, there is plenty of time to change things if you want to help, or give it all away to google-like "lock-in lite", VC boys, etc. if you prefer that.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:30 AM on October 14, 2015 [6 favorites]

My skills are rusty, but I used to write kernel- and driver-level code once upon a time, know my way around chip datasheets, debuggers and OS dynamics, and often feel the itch to go and do something actually useful in return for spending most of my recent working life using FOSS tools and systems.

But I don't, because my experiences with the developer communities have been horrible. Not uniformly, but often enough. And I'm as privileged and non-diverse as they come, and I can weaponize words with the worst of them.

The options are to suck it up (no, thanks), Prove Myself On The Field Of Combat until I've worked my way up to be just like them (no thanks, really), or just stay clear. It can't be fixed until it burns down. I could never encourage anyone to take part who has anything approaching normal interpersonal skills, let alone try and promote diversity.

Changng culture in corporates is hard, but you can do it - at least locally. It seems far worse in FOSSland. where if you're there, you're the Elect, and the Elect can do no wrong. Which is always, always, always a recipe for misery on a grand scale.
posted by Devonian at 8:07 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]

So the comments to Garrett's post - has 8chan taken over Linux development, or wtf is going on there?
posted by effbot at 8:09 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was really encouraged by /r/programming's take on her departure... for the first few hours. Eventually the "you need abuse to be rigorous" crowd showed up and took over the thread.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:15 AM on October 14, 2015

I doubt the mass of ugly comments Matthew Garrett gets are from [ex-]fellow kernel developers. He's supporting an obvious target, and has plenty of "form" to be targeted himself... He did once post a boycott of Intel for their response to GamerGate, but I wouldn't guess it's that specific. More a contagious overlap between the broader Linux-using and gamer communities.

I saw Sarah's post linked in the reddit for the Rust project. The Rust teams already do work on this sort of thing, and considered Sarah's points useful. Unfortunately the average commenter on that thread was not as positive. More than one comment sounds like "I'm not a GamerGater but". It looks civil by comparison, however given GG's tactics I'm not sure that counts for much anymore.
posted by sourcejedi at 10:00 AM on October 14, 2015

Though I should say 8chan/GG aren't special. Open source has its own established problems without needing to blame anyone else.
posted by sourcejedi at 10:12 AM on October 14, 2015

So the comments to Garrett's post - has 8chan taken over Linux development, or wtf is going on there?

The worst behavior that the leadership of a community is willing to walk past without comment very quickly becomes the norm.
posted by mhoye at 10:22 AM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]

I saw Sarah's post linked in the reddit for the Rust project. The Rust teams already do work on this sort of thing, and considered Sarah's points useful. Unfortunately the average commenter on that thread was not as positive

Graydon is a fucking saint.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 11:09 AM on October 14, 2015

So the comments to Garrett's post - has 8chan taken over Linux development, or wtf is going on there?

The culture of Linux devs being huge assholes (not necessarily the GG/explicitly sexist stuff) infamously goes all the way up to the guy it's fucking named after...
posted by atoxyl at 11:41 AM on October 14, 2015 [3 favorites]

As someone currently building a community of a couple thousand members (and growing) that has nothing to do with Linux (or programming at all, really, except in at most a metaphorical sense), this is relevant to my interests.
posted by chicobangs at 11:42 AM on October 14, 2015

I mean I don't even really have a problem with engineers being blunt about technical criticism, but Linus has long reveled in insulting people and it undoubtedly sets the tone for certain devs who fancy themselves hotshots.
posted by atoxyl at 11:47 AM on October 14, 2015

Building diversity in communities is so so hard.

I agree. Does the Metafilter community work to build diversity? This place can be pretty hostile to the not-so-like-minded.
posted by dashDashDot at 5:00 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]

Diversity isn't the same thing as "not-so-like-minded". It's more about diverse perspectives - things like different income levels, genders, races, cultures, etc. There's nothing wrong (and much right) with like-mindedness when it's about stuff like not calling people names, not promoting rape culture, calling out sexist/racist behaviour, etc etc. Similar to how a linux-oriented community wouldn't get much benefit out of attracting the "not-so-like-minded" people who think linux is awful and nobody should use it.
posted by randomnity at 5:44 PM on October 14, 2015

Diversity isn't the same thing as "not-so-like-minded". It's more about diverse perspectives - things like different income levels, genders, races, cultures, etc.

Diversity of perspectives is one type of diversity, I think there are other types of diversity relevant to a healthy community. There is value to diversity of opinions, for example, which is perhaps the most difficult type of diversity to foster because it often requires people with competing world views to co-exist.

Plenty of communities are good at supporting diverse perspectives, very few are good at tolerating diverse opinions.
posted by Maugrim at 6:15 PM on October 14, 2015 [1 favorite]

I agree. Does the Metafilter community work to build diversity? This place can be pretty hostile to the not-so-like-minded.

MetaFilter isn't at Level 0 yet, but is working on it. I would say one of the major points of failure is "When microaggressions are pointed out, community members stop, listen, and apologize" and "The whole community, including leadership and community managers actively enforce communication standards". Right now there's a significant portion who view the steps taken by MeFi Management toward Metafilter being at Level 0 to be "hostile to the not-so-like-minded" so I imagine it will be a while.

The areas where it has somewhat improved (women, trans people) were the result of hard work that continues to be insulted, undermined, and described as harmful to the community. This would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:03 PM on October 14, 2015 [2 favorites]

Well, the rules for a good community seem specifically tailored to those with a specific goal or measureable output, so levels 2-3 aren't really applicable to MetaFilter. I don't think any easily-joinable general purpose online forum will ever be able to deal with microaggressions at the same level as a restricted or real-life community can. But otherwise, MetaFilter is great at levels 0, 4, and 5. Still incredibly hard for newbies to get in, though.

(and uuuggghhhh the use of the term "professional victim" is spreading.)
posted by halifix at 7:04 AM on October 15, 2015

But otherwise, MetaFilter is great at levels 0, 4, and 5.

I really disagree with that. I would imagine people more marginalized than I am along more axes would have even stronger reactions, but I have definitely had times I've considered bailing on MetaFilter because of the cruelty to people marginalized along just one axis, not to mention more.

We're also missing large swaths of very active internet culture - especially racial diversity - which means Level 4 isn't in the cards. I've occasionally thought of inviting or linking to some of the stuff I run into as I try to de-racist myself, but then I worried about how MetaFilter would react, and given we haven't hit basic decency and there isn't large groups of people who speak up about racism on the regular to push back against it, there is no way in Hel I'll put people I admire through that.

Like she says, you have to have Level 0 in place before you even THINK about attracting newcomers and then try to encourage them to be active contributors (Levels 1 and 2). Ironically, like a lot of communities, we're doing Level 2 with the people here (just finished a big one in September), but it's still a pretty narrow set of demographics. I've been trying to keep my feelers more up and push back against other axes of marginalization, but I'm no where near as good at it since I'm having to continue to educate myself as well so I get things wrong.
posted by Deoridhe at 10:14 AM on October 15, 2015

I have definitely had times I've considered bailing on MetaFilter because of the cruelty to people marginalized along just one axis, not to mention more.

Are there places that work similarly to MeFi but are better in this regard? I ask (not rhetorically- actually curious) because I haven't found anything else on the web that is better, but of course if there is a better option that would be awesome.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 12:16 PM on October 15, 2015 [1 favorite]

Does the Metafilter community work to build diversity? This place can be pretty hostile to the not-so-like-minded.

A geographical community is different from an opinion sharing community in a private forum. The latter is often defaulted to a group-think because they are sharing themselves as a resource, under private ownership. This effort often requires allies, to make it more safe, comfortable and enjoyable. When a dozen people scold and ridicule someone, it's a bonding ritual that seeks to belong to those allies. It is rather harmless when the foil is a politician quoted in an article, but cruel when it happens to someone else.
posted by Brian B. at 4:14 PM on October 15, 2015

Are there places that work similarly to MeFi but are better in this regard?

Nope. The closest is The Toast but contributions aren't decentralized in the same way. Community wise there is also Mark Reads, but that's centered around an individual who sets the community requirements (which are Hella progressive) and doesn't include random discussions. I'd also point to the community which grew up around Captain Awkward, but again it's around a single individual and I might have blindspots on her because demographically we're very similar. I think similar things exist on Twitter and Tumblr - both have black versions which interact to a level I'd consider it a community, but both are decentralized in a way MetaFilter is not.
posted by Deoridhe at 4:14 PM on October 15, 2015 [2 favorites]

Plenty of communities are good at supporting diverse perspectives, very few are good at tolerating diverse opinions.

The Onion, as usual, captures this perfectly.
posted by theorique at 1:35 AM on October 16, 2015 [1 favorite]