Less hippie, more hip
October 23, 2015 1:57 PM Subscribe

Veganism has been edging into the mainstream for years now, coaxed along by superstar believers like Bill Clinton and Beyonce. But lately, as plant-eating has blossomed and gained followers, influential vegans are laboring to supplant its dowdy, spartan image with a new look: glamorous, prosperous, sexy, and epidermally beaming with health.
posted by Kitteh (201 comments total) 23 users marked this as a favorite

Kids constantly need to find new, expensive ways to display their politics and distinguish themselves from poor/uneducated people. I doubt veganism will catch on though - the personal cost is too high for it to be a cool personal thing outside the NYT/LenaDunham/TheToast room 101 of signalling.
posted by Another Fine Product From The Nonsense Factory at 2:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [14 favorites]

Mr. Roll and Ms. Piatt are vegans, and they’re on a mission to let people know that enlisting with their tribe doesn’t have to feel like being trapped in a fragrant tent with “the dreadlocked hippie who is kicking the hacky sack,” as Mr. Roll puts it.

And yet she chose to wear that shirt in the photo shoot.
posted by jacquilynne at 2:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

After just shy of 40 years of being out of shape & tubby, I seriously cut down my animal protein intake. At 47, Im leaner & stronger than when I was fighting full contact TKD in college.

I grew up as a carnivore. My palate responds to the smell & taste of bbq & carnitas.

But Im all behind rebranding veganism as healthy AND sexy.

Meat sweats? Not sexy.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 2:10 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Ms. Piatt, who also goes by her spiritual name, SriMati

Labor harder. I mean, isn't throwing that in there slightly antithetical to the point of the article? And I say that as someone who's making seitan from scratch and a batch of cashew-and-potato-cheese-sauced macaroni for the vegan cohort at his barbecue tomorrow.

Along those lines, it is a goddamn shame that Vedge (nee Horizons) and Rich Landau didn't get a shoutout. Maybe it's my Philly confirmation bias, but that's the vegan restaurant that I see making nationwide best restaurant lists, not just limited to veg[etari]an, or Philly for that matter. And it's one of the best places in the city, along with its more casual sibling, V Street. No trace of stereotypical judgement or hippieishness, just modern fine dining and incredible food-- plant-focused rather than meat-replacement-focused.
posted by supercres at 2:10 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]

I doubt veganism will catch on though - the personal cost is too high for it to be a cool personal thing outside the NYT/LenaDunham/TheToast room 101 of signalling.

Have you been to parts of California or Massachusetts or Oregon?
posted by Melismata at 2:12 PM on October 23, 2015 [17 favorites]

supercres, I would LOVE to go to Vedge. Rich Landau follows me on Twitter for some reason!
posted by Kitteh at 2:13 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I also feel like there's a thing happening now with people being part-time vegans (e.g., Mark Bittman's vegan-till-5 regime; J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's February Vegan Experience). For most omnivores, it's comforting to not have to take a hardline "no dairy ever again" stance, and considering the environmental benefits of giving up even some meat and dairy, I think it's a positive step.

One of the hard things about contemplating veganism, which I have done, but I'm not a vegan, is losing touch with cultural ties through food. The Thanksgiving turkey, your grandpa's meatballs, your Nana's fig pinwheel cookies, etc. Part-time veganism requires no such shedding of these cultural foodways, but allows you to eat delicious vegan food.
posted by purpleclover at 2:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [32 favorites]

I doubt veganism will catch on though - the personal cost is too high for it to be a cool personal thing outside the NYT/LenaDunham/TheToast room 101 of signalling.

It seems to have caught on in India although I guess maybe all those Jains* are just posturing about eggs and trying to signal their status or something.

* fine, they eat milk products so they're not REAL VEGANS.
posted by GuyZero at 2:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]

Along those lines, it is a goddamn shame that Vedge (nee Horizons) and Rich Landau didn't get a shoutout.

God, I love that restuarant so much. I love that restaurant so much.

It convinced Mr. Machine, a man who has never made a savory dish he didn't try to sneak some animal fat into, that not only vegetarian food, but vegan food could be delicious. I have dreams about the salt-roasted beets there.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:15 PM on October 23, 2015

"Believers" is a strange and rather loaded word to describe typical vegans - I don't eat cheese or meat. That doesn't require believing anything any more than someone who eats potatoes or doesn't eat woodlice.

It’s not uncommon to hear vegans mooning over “the glow,” an irresistible incandescence that starts to emanate from within after a few weeks or months of eating only plants.

I have never heard a vegan talk about this. We talk about the latest melty cheese or frozen pies, or ways to make meringues with the leftovers from chickpea cans, or big cakes. Not radiant glows.
posted by BinaryApe at 2:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [40 favorites]

> "I have never heard a vegan talk about this."

Yeah. WTF?
posted by kyrademon at 2:18 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

“the glow,” an irresistible incandescence that starts to emanate from within

Unless that's a euphemism for flatulence. Is it? Maybe I'm out of touch.
posted by BinaryApe at 2:18 PM on October 23, 2015 [54 favorites]

BinaryApe, IKR?? Vegans are some of the most food-talkingest people I know, but damned if I ever hear a convo about someone's "glow."
posted by Kitteh at 2:19 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

ways to make meringues with the leftovers from chickpea cans

wait, what?

Also, apparently, vegans seem to be borderline food chemists.
posted by GuyZero at 2:19 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Glad to know that none of you know any insufferable holier-than-thou vegans. They're not fun.
posted by Melismata at 2:20 PM on October 23, 2015 [19 favorites]

After just shy of 40 years of being out of shape & tubby, I seriously cut down my animal protein intake. At 47, Im leaner & stronger than when I was fighting full contact TKD in college.

Is cutting down your animal protein intake really the only change you made?

I guess maybe all those Jains* are just posturing about eggs and trying to signal their status or something.

As is your style, this is not even close to the same thing and just so far removed from good faith engagement.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 2:20 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

GuyZero - the leftover salty water can do some neat stuff - see aquafaba.
posted by BinaryApe at 2:22 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

As is your style, this is not even close to the same thing and just so far removed from good faith engagement.

The point is that lumping every single vegan under the umbrella of having no investment in how they eat beyond status signalling is ridiculous.

I'm not even sure if I know who "a cool personal thing outside the NYT/LenaDunham/TheToast room 101" is supposed to be.
posted by GuyZero at 2:22 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

wait, what?

Also, apparently, vegans seem to be borderline food chemists.

GuyZero, here you go!

BinaryApe: JINX!
posted by Kitteh at 2:22 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

You know how you only use 10% of your brain? Well, it's because the other 90% is filled up with curds and whey!

On preview: GREG YOU THIEF
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:26 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

FWIW, I really don't like the framing of this article, especially the first family profiled. I'm very much a non-hippie vegan, but I do like that mainstream vegan options are better than ever now as compared to even 5-7 years ago. I like that I can feel like less of a weirdo when I go out to eat or travel but I credit Isa Chandra Moskowitz with that more than that first couple. It's super weird she didn't get a mention.

Ah, but you see, Isa Chandra Moskowitz isn't a former entertainment lawyer. She isn't especially thin, and although she's certainly a pretty person, she isn't Hollywood pretty. Also she's punk rock. Also she has a complicated name that sounds kind of foreign. Also, most of her recipes rely on fairly accessible ingredients and techniques - even when they're kind of fiddly, they're no "seafood tower" made out of exotic mushrooms.

When I was really, actually vegan (as opposed to vegan with lapses when stressed) I did not notice any glow. I know a LOT of really hard-core vegans, too (the kind who are super strict about sugar, for instance) and they don't glow any more than I do.
posted by Frowner at 2:27 PM on October 23, 2015 [14 favorites]

and they don't glow any more than I do.

Can we please make "glow" a euphemism for gaseous emanations?

It's almost hilarious how much this article seems to undermine itself at every turn.
posted by supercres at 2:29 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

I glowed when I ate mostly vegan. But then, I did have a tomacco heavy diet.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:33 PM on October 23, 2015

Also, it's wealth that preserves youth - wealth, putting a lot of fashion effort into looking youthful, being lucky enough not to have had a major illness and having some good genetics. Ol' "I look like I could row crew for an Ivy" wouldn't look like that if the men in his family all balded at thirty. This has relatively little to do with being vegan.
posted by Frowner at 2:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [30 favorites]

I also glow, to be fair, but only because I produce coelenterazine in my photic organs as a defense against deep-sea predators. It has nothing to do with my diet.
posted by kyrademon at 2:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [70 favorites]

I'm a vegan, Megan
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Can we please make "glow" a euphemism for gaseous emanations?

Since is related to "mooning" I think the work there has already been done!
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:37 PM on October 23, 2015

I think the glow is due to carotene and is a sign you've eaten too many carrots.
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:38 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

ways to make meringues with the leftovers from chickpea cans

wait, what?

Chickpea juice from canned chickpeas is a substitute (actually the best one, according to Lifehacker) for eggs in baking. How do I know this? SO's daughter recently became vegan, and I cook all our meals, so I'm learning A LOT. We made vegan pecan pie the other day that used saltines as a binder, and it was really, really good.

And I have to say, even as a committed carnivore, I'm finding that I feel less bloated and gross after eating a Serious Eats black bean burger than after eating a big juicy beef burger. Not to say I'm not going to eat that juicy burger sometimes, but it's definitely broadened my perspective.

And there are some AMAZING vegan restaurants here in CA... I had a vegan shrimp dish the other day, and the 'shrimp' had the exact texture of real shrimp, it was amazing.

One last thing... at first cooking for two omnivores and a vegan was frustrating, but I found that cooking a vegan base (stir-fry or rice dish or whatever), then adding a protein to half and some tofu to the other half works really well, and you just dirty one more skillet.

Oh and yeah, the glowing thing I've never heard of. Maybe it's an East Coast/West Coast thing.
posted by Huck500 at 2:50 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

When vegetarianism in the developing world gets brought up, I always think of Earth by David Brin, wherein the author envisioned a 2038 from 1988 where vegetarianism is the standard, because meat production is incredibly environmentally taxing and unsustainable.

As for starvation, we surely have seen some appalling local episodes. Half the world’s cropland has been lost, and more is threatened. Still, the “great die-back” everyone talks about always seems to lie a decade or so in the future, perpetually deferred. Innovations like self-fertilizing rice and super-mantises help us scrape by each near-catastrophe just in the nick of time. Likewise, due to changing life-styles, few today can bear the thought of eating the flesh of a fellow mammal. Putting moral or health reasons aside, this shift in habits has freed millions of tons of grain, which once went into inefficient production of red meat.

I figure this will be the impetus to switching to vegan/vegetarian (or at least semi-vegetarian) diets in the future. Until we can mass produce synthesized lab meat.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Mr. Roll and Ms. Piatt are vegans, and they’re on a mission . . .

It's a cookbook!!

posted by Herodios at 2:56 PM on October 23, 2015

Besides, how could we trust people who've been beaming us pictures of Adolph Hitler from space? You know who else was a veg-%^^^nocarier

posted by Herodios at 2:59 PM on October 23, 2015

I inevitably end up cooking when I go to my parents' house to visit and they are amazed that what I make isn't what they expected. Again, I love that vegan recipes have come a crazy long way from the stereotype. I also love that I have super supportive family and friends who make me comfortable about my diet instead of being an asshole. I usually find that the assholes about how I eat are randos on the Internet and strangers IRL.
posted by Kitteh at 3:05 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

This piece annoys me. It's a mix of hippie-punching, false-consciousness class incitement, and a two-paragraph article from an airplane magazine's style section. I would be really hard-pressed if I had to write a few sentences to sum up what this piece is actually saying in a way that made sense.
posted by threeants at 3:07 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]

>Meat sweats? Not sexy.

Neither is sleeping in the wet spot, but it hasn't turned me off sex yet.
posted by Sunburnt at 3:07 PM on October 23, 2015 [10 favorites]

The chickpea water thing is amazing because one can's worth will make more meringue than you can use, as opposed to using up half a dozen eggs to do the same thing. Plus then you have to do something with the yolks (I end up making creme brulee, which is delicious, but making both meringue and creme brulee at the same time isn't great for the waistline).
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Hey, remember when veganism was about compassion, environmentalism, peace and sustainability? Gross, right!? Don't worry, it's another branch of globalized consumer capitalism now.
posted by overeducated_alligator at 3:11 PM on October 23, 2015 [47 favorites]

One of the things I love about vegan cooking and cuisine is just how cool it is to see what can be created with limited resources. Doing more with less is great, and while I'll never be vegan myself, having creative people pushing the edges of the craft helps everyone move forward and results in cool creations for all.
posted by Carillon at 3:12 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Hey, remember when veganism was about compassion, environmentalism, peace and sustainability?

It still is, but I find that if you talk about that, then you're a "insufferable holier-than-thou vegan."
posted by Kitteh at 3:14 PM on October 23, 2015 [26 favorites]

After just shy of 40 years of being out of shape & tubby, I seriously cut down my animal protein intake. At 47, Im leaner & stronger than when I was fighting full contact TKD in college.

Is cutting down your animal protein intake really the only change you made?

Pretty much.

Of all the things Ive done, all the workouts, gym memberships, exercise tools Ive tried, nothing was successful at reducing that unsexy truck-tire of jiggle around my waist as going plant-oriented re: food.

Strength was never a problem. Leaner was always the problem.

Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 3:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

"We've been so much happier and healthier since replacing the dairy in our diet with the tears and crushed dreams of the poor."
posted by mittens at 3:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

At this very moment I'm eating take out from a southern barbecue joint that makes all the sides vegan and hot smokes blocks of tofu in addition to their meat offerings.

Around here, at least, vegan is like so 10 years ago, though. All the new hip restaurants are all about the artisinal charcuterie and tons of offal. It's actually gotten more difficult to be a foodie veg here in recent years, not less.

I've been eating various meat-free diets for decades, but I am detecting no glow. Alas.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:27 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.

Shudderrrrrrrrrrr. I hear the gist of what you're saying, but that phrase is one my friend used to use when she was heading to the bathroom to barf up her dinner. Maybe it's just my corner of the internet, but that is a phrase bandied about frequently amongst Ana/Mia folks.
posted by Elly Vortex at 3:28 PM on October 23, 2015 [80 favorites]

Yeah, tbh, I have never been comfortable with the pitch that veganism makes you skinny. There is a real current of fat-shaming in the veg community that makes me embarrassed. Like, if you are a fat vegan then you're Doing It Wrong or a liar. I know some rad as shit fat vegans and they are so so tired of being told "hey, I thought all vegans were skinny!" from outside the community and being treated like crap within it.
posted by Kitteh at 3:32 PM on October 23, 2015 [34 favorites]

Oh man, I was vegan for about 6 months and I credit it with turning my health around...in that I finally got diagnosed with pernicious anaemia and got treatment for it properly instead of limping along on the small amount of b12 I managed to absorb as an omnivore.

I genuinely love vegan food, there was a vegan borscht recipe that I still make, and I whip out my vegan cookbooks to cook for friends, but the slow descent into fatigue, the endless embarrassing wind like my own personal Chicago and the way it subtly fed my latent eating disorder because restricting, plus praise for being 'healthy', was doing a number on my brain.

I mean, I could have continued after I was diagnosed and received treatment, but it was a relief to have an actual reason to stop and not pile on more guilt about my eating choices that come with being a fat woman.
posted by litereally at 3:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]

I had a sarcastic comment about alleged "insufferable holier-than-thou vegans" that I guess got deleted, but the non-sarcastic version of it is that yes, insufferable people exist; yes, some of them, much like the population at large, are vegans; and no, the point trying to be made is not a successful one.
posted by threeants at 3:35 PM on October 23, 2015

I guess I'm lucky to be surrounded by super low-key vegans who do not glow. (I mean, they're lovely people but they aren't ethereal.) Reasons range all across the spectrum, and it's been instructive for me to just plan to go vegan for potlucks and parties since that way everyone can eat stuff.

We have been upping the frequency of vegetarian and vegan meals we cook and eat, probably mostly motivated by living in California and knowing the water consumption that goes into livestock production here.

I have certainly known people for whom a vegan diet is just a very hip orthorexia. (And "nothing tastes as good as skinny feels" is really sizeist and also triggering for people with ED, it's better to avoid.) It's also a lot easier to be Beyonce or Bill Clinton and just instruct the people around you to provide you with only vegan options, including at other people's dinner parties and airplanes and on the road. Some of the healthiest vegan options are hardly the least expensive. Yes, you can survive on pasta and shortening cookies for a while, but you're not going to look like Beyonce.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

I have honestly never in my life come across a vegan or vegetarian that conformed to the holier than thou, don't worry they'll tell you stereotype, and I've known a lot of vegans and vegetarians.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 3:36 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

Kitteh: "It still is, but I find that if you talk about that, then you're a "insufferable holier-than-thou vegan.""

I'm an omnivore who's vegan-sympathetic (as in, I'd do that if I didn't like animal products so much and it didn't seem like such a huge pain in the ass), but I think vegans who talk about ethics and environmentalism (I don't know about "peace") to be way, way preferable to the ones who tie it into spiritualism, miracle diets, wild health claims, and other assorted bullshit. Those last ones are often just one step away from starting ranting about the evils of cooking your food, vaccines, and Monsanto.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:39 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

“the glow,” an irresistible incandescence that starts to emanate from within

Unless that's a euphemism for flatulence. Is it? Maybe I'm out of touch.

"Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter." *poot*
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:40 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

It's all okay, you guys. It's okay to be not-vegan, and it's okay to be vegan. There is, indeed, a novelty to trying to not hurt as much as you can not hurt. It's, for now, okay to hurt what you must, as long as those are just animals, I guess. It pains me to say it.

I didn't have the knowledge I needed to be vegan back when I tried to be (in college, to be cool and philosophically consistent), and I don't have it now. Still vegetarian. Still doing my best. Veganism ended with me in a place that was not at all equipped for veganism, being brought into the emergency room on Christmas Eve. Doesn't work in a lot of places. There just weren't the options where I lived then. But if there are places where that can work, you know, it seems all right.

Veganism never made me skinny and it definitely never made me cool, but as a Bentham-style utilitarian thing, veganism is probably okay. Prostheletizing is almost always worthless.
posted by lauranesson at 3:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Joakim Ziegler, one of my biggest biggest pet peeves is when veganism and homeopathy and New Age overlap. I absolutely detest it. Enough where I will willingly alienate people who start in with that shit at a veggie outing.
posted by Kitteh at 3:42 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]

I haven't really encountered many obnoxious vegans outside of high school, at least. (And the fact that I've run into any at all is because I worked in natural food grocers for years--they were not friends or acquaintances, they were whakadoo customers that no one liked.)

The most obnoxious people I've ever encountered regarding food are dudes of the "Eating anything green is for pussies! grrrrrarghhlbarg!" variety. Those people have been truly dicks to me in social situations.
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:43 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

ultraviolet catastrophe: "I have honestly never in my life come across a vegan or vegetarian that conformed to the holier than thou, don't worry they'll tell you stereotype, and I've known a lot of vegans and vegetarians."

Oh, they definitely exist, but I think they're at most a vocal minority. Most vegans and vegetarians I know are perfectly normal, lovely people. But then there are the people who put in their Tinder profiles that they won't date people whose "body is a graveyard", so... But honestly, I think those holier than thou vegans are not principally vegans, they're principally orthorexic assholes with a need to judge and a persecution complex, who've latched on to veganism as the latest in a long line of things they can be picky and judgmental about, and who could care less about the ethics or the sustainability. All the talk about how healthy it is and how skinny it makes you and how much you glow and whatnot is probably a good indicator of what this is really about, too.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:43 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Kitteh: "Joakim Ziegler, one of my biggest biggest pet peeves is when veganism and homeopathy and New Age overlap. I absolutely detest it. Enough where I will willingly alienate people who start in with that shit at a veggie outing."

On the other hand, I love vegans who are science-based and ethical and thoughtful and confront the woo bullshit. So, hey, good work.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:44 PM on October 23, 2015

Is this NYT Fashion page type posturing about health? Or wellness?

I'm not a vegan, although I can appreciate the reasoning behind it. But I'm always wary about people who flaunt their diets/nutrition/meditation/yoga/exercise habits, however, and that wellness post puts this into words much better than I can.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:44 PM on October 23, 2015

Seriously, there are members of our local vegan/vegetarian chapter who are convinced that Big Pharma is killing off homeopathic practitioners. They post about it regularly on Facebook.
posted by Kitteh at 3:46 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

It always strikes me as a real show of insecurity and emotional or intellectual dishonesty when people's worldviews don't make room for the admission that there might be morally positive things to do that they aren't doing. Personally, I am a vegetarian who appreciates vegans' effect on the environment and on animals' lives while not making that choice myself. I simultaneously recognize it as a more moral choice than the one I'm making, while also not beating myself up about it-- we all do what we can.

Not to sound overly cheesy, but there's a lot of work in this world to be done and we should be appreciative, not disdainful, of those who step in where we're too weak. Any given moral choice is only one of a million we make every day, so I don't think there should be existential shame in admitting weakness on some of them.
posted by threeants at 3:47 PM on October 23, 2015 [26 favorites]

Seriously, there are members of our local vegan/vegetarian chapter who are convinced that Big Pharma is killing off homeopathic practitioners. They post about it regularly on Facebook.

If they can figure out how Big Pharma is doing it, then all they need to do is get a drop or two of the poison and serial dilute a few dozen times, and they should be safe!
posted by Existential Dread at 3:48 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

I also think vegetarianism plus sustainable, ethical dairly and egg production probably gets you 98% of the way there, ethically (not sure about environmental issues, but not actually killing the animals you raise on a regular basis has to be more sustainable, at least), and is much less of a hassle. I've cut down on my meat consumption lately, and I'm kind of hoping that will continue until I end up as a very occasional meat eater (flexitarian, I guess?) It's not perfect, but it's probably a lot better.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

There is a lot of misinformation flying around this thread. You most definitely catch more flies with vinegar, and I have the data to prove it in my office kitchen.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 3:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

I'm not vegan, but for funsies I'm planning on making a vegan chili for a chili cookoff coming up. I've already gotten pushback from half the people I've told about it. Ew - vegan chili? I like MEAT in my chili!

OK, great, there's going to be twenty pots of meat chili there too. You'll get all the goddamn meat you can handle.

Jeebus. Do these people cut up bits of sirloin into their Cheerios in the morning?
posted by Cookiebastard at 3:52 PM on October 23, 2015 [23 favorites]

You most definitely catch more flies with vinegar

But you have to use Bragg's, so the flies get a taste of The Mother.
posted by mittens at 3:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

The funny thing is, if you just call it vegetarian chili, more people would be willing to try it.
posted by mochapickle at 3:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I was thinking about that - and still might - but I'm enjoying the challenge of coming up with nondairy shredded cheese and sour cream substitutes to go with it.
posted by Cookiebastard at 4:03 PM on October 23, 2015

Speaking of semi-vegetarianism, it seems like white meat isn't just better for you, it's better for the environment as well. Even pork, which can be considered red meat to some extent, is better than cattle or sheep. And given that red meat can lead to heart disease, which is still the leading killer of Americans, it's almost a no-brainer to switch to a less red meat diet on the way to outright veganism.
posted by Apocryphon at 4:03 PM on October 23, 2015

Veganism peaked too soon and got overexposed, and the hipsters got into artisanal carnivorism, getting into exotic meats and doing butchering courses in Brooklyn (apparently being able to butcher a carcass is the new playing drums in a hardcore punk band) and opening food trucks serving pulled pork everything. Perhaps because being vegan was too obviously alternative, too the point where it became lamer than the mainstream by virtue of trying too hard; a bit like the way boycotting Nike sweatshops gave way to collecting vintage Nikes and no hipster would be caught dead professing being into Joy Division or The Smiths (the store-bought Ramones T-shirt of professed favourite bands), but would rather give a nuanced appraisal of, say, Hall and Oates or Taylor Swift.
posted by acb at 4:07 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

So really (sorry, rambling on from my prior comment), I think the feeling of being "judged" is caused in many cases by a deficit in moral nuance. My belief that all things being equal vegetarianism is more morally right than omnivorism, and veganism than vegetarianism, is a judgment in the literal sense of the word, in that it is an assignation of value based on evidence and presuppositions, but is also not a "judgment", in that this fact does not necessarily imply any negative, disdainful, or unempathetic feelings towards the individuals behaving less morally along this one axis.

I think these are a lot of the same people who simply can't understand that something they say or do being called out as racist could be anything other than an existential threat; who basically seem to see individual morality as a giant house of cards whose validity hinges entirely on the unimpeachability of any single tiny piece.
posted by threeants at 4:07 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]

soren_lorensen: The most obnoxious people I've ever encountered regarding food are dudes of the "Eating anything green is for pussies! grrrrrarghhlbarg!" variety. Those people have been truly dicks to me in social situations.

Cookiebastard: I'm not vegan, but for funsies I'm planning on making a vegan chili for a chili cookoff coming up. I've already gotten pushback from half the people I've told about it. Ew - vegan chili? I like MEAT in my chili!

Thirding this. I have gotten way more obnoxious comments from meat-eaters in the years since I stopped eating meat than I ever heard from vegetarians or vegans beforehand. Typically it's somewhere in the "OMG BUT YOU HAVE TO STILL EAT BACON" spectrum, but sometimes it's more hostile.

My favorite(?) example was a lunch at a business meeting I was attending. This one had an assemble-your-own taco bar (which is so much better than the typical choice from a platter of ham, roast beef, or turkey sandwiches). I happily made a taco with beans, lettuce, tomatoes, and cheese and was grabbing a drink to go with it when someone from the other company looked at my plate, then straight in my eyes and said "I don't trust anyone who doesn't eat meat" before stalking off. Mind you, I hadn't said a word about the food beyond possibly "this looks great!".

In my experience, omnivores are far more likely to be hostile about my diet than the other way around. I'm not sure how what I eat threatens some people but it very visibly does.
posted by fader at 4:13 PM on October 23, 2015 [32 favorites]

As an Old, I remember the days when vegetarian food (let alone vegan) was mostly for hippies, and it was dreary and carby to boot. I'm so glad to see tasty, gourmet, creative, and non-white-carby vegan recipes so widely available. Vegan cuisine has come a long way. I'm not a vegan, but I like to experiment with meatless meals and vegetarian dishes as main courses rather than sides, so I can cut back on meat without loading up on white carbs (which I have to limit due to insulin resistance).

Yay for the dedicated vegan cooks who have brought vegan and vegetarian food far from Laurel's Kitchen (remember that hippie cookbook?).
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:15 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Came here to drop this in the Whole Foods aisle and ditch.

I'm a vegetarian, but I know it would be easier to lose weight if I ate lean meat and eggs. It always bewilders me a little whenever a vegan loses weight and claims not to feel deprived. But I have blood sugar issues I can't sort out. I tried developing an eating disorder in junior high, but I got too dizzy. One time recently in the subway I almost fainted because the granola bar I ate for breakfast wasn't enough. I just seem to have something wrong with my fuel intake.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

Also, I gotta say, of course my body is a graveyard. It's got a skeleton in it.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:24 PM on October 23, 2015 [57 favorites]

So these "meringues" you make - how do they taste in comparison to egg meringue? And can you bake them? Aren't they salty due to the salt in canning? I am intrigued by this idea and would like to astonish my friends with vegan meringue.

My wife made some after I told her about them and they weren't salty. Some of them had voids in the middle but that may just be a baking time/temperature thing. If you had one of these and one from eggs I doubt that you'd be able to tell which is which.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:26 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Some guys in college thought it was hi-larious to throw raw meat at me. I'm not squeamish about meat at all, though, so I was just like, wtf, who raised you?!

A good friend's ex husband used to tell me, as I was putting fork to lips, that tofu (what I was eating) is dog vomit. Like, that was his idea of dinner conversation with a vegetarian. That guy I literally never saw eat a meal that did not contain meat. He would pout and tantrum like a toddler if he was in a situation where getting, say, a pizza without sausage and pepperoni made the most sense with a group of people sharing.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:27 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Eh, I just try and make sure I have something super protein-y since I do high cardio workouts every morning except for Sundays. Actually the part where I fail hardest at being a vegan is making sure I eat leafy greens other than lettuce every day. I totally get on my own case where I see a lot of vegan blogs I like talk about how their diets are damn near perfect and I'm like why is it so hard for me to emulate that and then I realize I am being a complete weirdo and just do the best you can.
posted by Kitteh at 4:29 PM on October 23, 2015

The funny thing is, if you just call it vegetarian chilli, more people would be willing to try it

I have noticed that devout carnivores are always more than happy to try the vegetarian pizza, and indeed to eat it all first so as to save the meat pizza for later (they know the vegetarians will not eat that).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:29 PM on October 23, 2015 [13 favorites]

"I doubt veganism will catch on though - the personal cost is too high for it to be a cool personal thing outside the NYT/LenaDunham/TheToast room 101 of signalling."

About five years ago, I went to the hospital with with a very uncomfortable, rapid heartbeat. It turns out, I had atrial fibrillation... which is pretty much a crap diagnosis to get in your early 40s, as it often eventually leads to strokes, heart attacks, and death.

I had the problem before, all the way back in my 20s, but it had never sent me to the hospital, and the bouts of afib were pretty regular... about once every month or so.

So, after doing some research, I decided to take regular supplements, including Vitamin D-3, B-12, and magnesium pills. I also try to take the occasional epsom salt -- magnesium salts -- baths, as magnesium absorbs more easily through the skin. I also moved from very walk-unfriendly suburbs that left me completely unmotivated to go out, to San Francisco, a place with plenty to see and do within walking distance.

But the most important thing I did was research what kind of diets are best as far as longevity... and in the world, that would be the Okinawan traditional diet, which has very little red meat... and in the US, that would be the Seventh Day Adventists, who are primarily vegetarian or pesco-vegetarian. I also paid attention to studies on stopping and reversing heart disease, and found that although lots of people say you can help yourself with other diets, only two diets, that of Caldwell Esselstyn and that of Dean Ornish, show actual reversals in heart disease. The Esselstyn diet in particular is known for stopping arterial linings from getting weak and rupturing, which are the leading causes of heart attacks and strokes, which is important to me, as temporary rapid heartbeats are not all that deadly if you don't give them anything to damage.

Food has always been a tough thing for me. I have a very strong appetite, and have a hard time controlling myself with certain types of foods. But I gradually moved my diet towards everyday veganism, with the occasional bit of fish and very rare bit of meat or dairy on special occasions... it's a diet, not a religion for me. I also changed my lifestyle to that of a pedestrian, with regular long walks. As a result, I've had lost over 50 lbs. and kept it off for years, and have had only one very minor afib episode in the past four years that went away quickly enough, with aspirin, magnesium, and a bit of rest.

The personal cost is too high?! Well, if we are talking money... it costs far less than being a carnivore. I can do quite well on $25 a week for food... in San Francisco. My partner is considerably younger than I am, and I want a long, healthy, active life with them... I don't want to give them the worst third of my adult life, I want to give them the best half. And the way I go out, walk around town, and do my shopping for fresh foods at vegetable stands and markets, or cook healthy meals for myself and my partner? That's not a "personal cost"... that's a lifestyle improvement.

Staying on my diet strictly isn't always easy, but just being good enough is a lot better than not... and I know I am getting plenty of healthy foods. My life might be a lot simpler and more basic than it used to be, with fewer restaurants, but by any realistic standard, it's a helluva lot better than the alternative.
posted by markkraft at 4:31 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

soren_lorensen, I'm guessing that in some way he felt like his masculinity was threatened by meatless eating. I didn't check in on that "man food and woman food" thread, but I bet there's some deep territory there.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:31 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Countess Elena, it really bugs me how much of an omnivore diet is tied to masculinity. It's rare to meet vegan dudes who are public about it because they will often be called "sissies" or what not, despite the huge amount of vegan athletes who prove that stereotype wrong in this day and age.
posted by Kitteh at 4:34 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

The masculinity one gets from eating lots of meat is overrated.
posted by markkraft at 4:38 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

mochapickle: The funny thing is, if you just call it vegetarian chili, more people would be willing to try it.

That's true. For some people, "vegan" is a loaded term that evokes that unpleasant encounter with living stereotype of a smug self-satisfied vegetarian like that Jesse Grass Simpsons character brought to life.

For me, it was a guy in the college dining hall who argued that GardenBurgers weren't really vegan since they had honey, which came from bees and are considered animals. Witnessing that would make even Gandhi pick up a cheeseburger out of spite.

Most vegans are chill people, but the evangelism phase that some go through can leave that impression linked to the word.
posted by dr_dank at 4:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Ok, fully copping to infelicitous phrasing.

I try to maintain a focus on movement and athleticism. Gracefulness as controlled strength in motion. I play one-wall handball, and a higher muscle:fat ratio generally leads to better success on the court.

I try to be pro-athleticism & not fat-shaming because that's being a dick. I've seen "fat" folks tear up a dance floor & "skinny" folks who could barely carry their groceries from the car to rhe kitchen.

And working on drastically reducing my animal-protein intake has been the one thing that has resulted in my long-term getting leaner & stronger, which has in turn resulted in greater athletic achievement & increased sexual attention, as well as an increased sense of overall well-being (including being more aesthetically pleased with what I see in the mirror) as opposed to when i had a huge roll around the middle.

On those axes, getting leaner through giving up hamburgers & sausage resulted in greater success.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:51 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Re: masculinity & flesh-eating; The Sexual Politics of Meat
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 4:57 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

When I was a kid we grew up vegetarian, because my dad had been one for about 20 years before he had us, and then continued for about another 15.. but it was never really spoken of as like.. a lifestyle choice? I actually remember having kind of a weird moment when I realized that I was (mostly) a vegetarian, because it was never really made much of a big deal of, we just didn't eat meat at home. I would never be like "gasp! game meat!" like the small girl in the article. Also my grandpa used to buy us chicken mcnuggets all the time so there's that.

Eggs, butter and fancy cheese are the big ones I can't get over to veganism. I have been cutting down on meat (usually only 3 days a week), but I just can't get over the animal by-products. I mean... blue cheese or goat cheese MAKES that salad a meal.

sigh. I'm impressed when people can both stick to it and cook things that seem interesting and tasty while being vegan.

However, none of this in any part has ever made me skinnier. I do however look at how my husband eats, and if he switched to vegetarian or veganism, he would end up cutting down his processed food hugely just by necessity, and that would probably cause weight loss. I think that's sometimes where people get these amazing weight loss stories from. Also vegetables aren't very calorie dense, so if you're eating mostly green veggies based, as opposed to my sometimes pasta-potatoes-and-rice-based diet. (oh ps my husband is very thin, he just eats a lot of processed food.)
posted by euphoria066 at 4:57 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

"Meat sweats? Not sexy."

;__;
posted by mrbigmuscles at 4:59 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

There used to be a lot of annoying vegans/vegetarians-- at least when I was in college. But I note that most of those same college friends have now gone on to eating meat as part of paleo diets and now they lecture me about the errors of my flexitarian ways for different reasons. Now it's not the animal fat-- now it's the gluten and pasta which will kill me.

I've been mostly vegetarian my whole life-- but I eat chicken and shellfish occasionally.
posted by frumiousb at 5:02 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Vegan cooking involves a lot of technical problems which haven't been resolved satisfactorily. This makes it a particularly good theme to create aspiration consumption around because new techniques are obvious improvements over old (vegan) ones. New techniques lead to new products that can be sold for a premium.

The biggest change that I've noted lately is the introduction of better shortening. That enabled vegan baked goods to be a Thing. There are still a bunch of technical problems to solve, like an analog for cheese. Surely new technology will provide qualitative improvements in these areas as well and subsequently lead to commercial opportunities that will sustain technical progression.
posted by ethansr at 5:02 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Ah, but you see, Isa Chandra Moskowitz isn't a former entertainment lawyer. She isn't especially thin, and although she's certainly a pretty person, she isn't Hollywood pretty. Also she's punk rock. Also she has a complicated name that sounds kind of foreign. Also, most of her recipes rely on fairly accessible ingredients and techniques - even when they're kind of fiddly, they're no "seafood tower" made out of exotic mushrooms.

Also, she lives in Omaha. New York Times lifestyle stories cannot feature people in Omaha, as a matter of policy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:03 PM on October 23, 2015 [20 favorites]

Well, Isa Chandra is a born and bred New Yorker, but I guess if she doesn't live there anymore, it doesn't count!
posted by Kitteh at 5:04 PM on October 23, 2015

These days she lives in Omaha, where she owns a restaurant that serves "swanky vegan comfort food".
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Ted Danson, Woody Harrellson, and Sam Simon have all been ethical vegans for twenty plus years. I wonder if they started while working together on Cheers?

I'm on my second attempt of part- time veganism-- no meat or eggs at home since February and not much milk/cheese. Trader Joe's tempeh has been a staple.

As for taking a long time/costing a lot? Hummus and tempeh on bread with some raw spinach is fast cheap and filling.
posted by GregorWill at 5:08 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

The biggest change that I've noted lately is the introduction of better shortening. That enabled vegan baked goods to be a Thing.

Except now we're destroying orangutan habitats because of deforestation to grow oil palms. I honestly don't know whether I prefer transfats or palm oil. Both make butter seems pretty ethical really.

like an analog for cheese

Man, people are working hard on this one. There's Chao slices, there's nut cheeses, there's all kinds of stuff. I just eat cheese myself - I'm not a vegan, I just have to live with them. Some of those vegan cheeses are really pretty good even by the standards of actual cheese. (and it's not like every cheese in the world is some sort of gustatory masterpiece - most commercial cheese isn't much of anything really)
posted by GuyZero at 5:10 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

These days she lives in Omaha, where she owns a restaurant that serves "swanky vegan comfort food".

Yes, I know! She is opening a Modern Love location in Brooklyn in 2016! Frankly, her restaurant is why I would probably visit Omaha, tbh.
posted by Kitteh at 5:11 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

A good friend's ex husband used to tell me, as I was putting fork to lips, that tofu (what I was eating) is dog vomit. Like, that was his idea of dinner conversation with a vegetarian. That guy I literally never saw eat a meal that did not contain meat. He would pout and tantrum like a toddler if he was in a situation where getting, say, a pizza without sausage and pepperoni made the most sense with a group of people sharing.

I'm not a vegetarian these days, but I tried to be one for a good chunk of a childhood spent in rural Nebraska and Kansas. My younger sister stuck with it into adulthood.

As a generalization, people in the ag economy or with ties to it, especially people with family roots there, tend to understand not eating meat as something very like a deliberate assault on their livelihoods and cultural identities. My dad, to this day, if we cook a vegetarian meal at home during the holidays, will look at it and then make himself a hamburger to go with the smallest acceptable portion of whatever we cooked. For people who feel this way, it's like the absence of meat is felt as the presence of some sort of toxin.

I don't fully get it, but it sure does seem to run deep.
posted by brennen at 5:19 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Thing is, of your partner is all "The stink of protein on their sweat is so unsexy that I'd rather forego getting it on With them rather than deal with being so turned off", then Processing the wet spot doesnt even get queued up.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 5:28 PM on October 23, 2015

> I've been mostly vegetarian my whole life-- but I eat chicken and shellfish occasionally.

You might be a Mafist. Maybe just coincidentally.

/foxworthy
posted by Sunburnt at 5:29 PM on October 23, 2015

"nothing tastes as good as skinny feels"

I've been skinny and healthy, and I've been fat and healthy, and I've been skinny and unhealthy, and I've been fat and unhealthy, and I'm here to tell you that many, many things taste way better than skinny feels.

SO. MANY. THINGS. TASTE. WAY. BETTER.

Also, that's an immature, ignorant, shitty, narrow-minded, backwards, body-shaming thing to say.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to a neighbor's birthday dinner of New York strip steak with sweet potato fries, and buttercream-filled cupcakes for dessert.
posted by tzikeh at 5:30 PM on October 23, 2015 [15 favorites]

I honestly can't tell if that article means to make fun of its subjects or not. It's very odd.

Incidentally, I could have sworn that the New York Times did a sort of similar article a while ago featuring Isa Chandra Moskowitz and Ted Leo, so I googled and found this from 2007.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:30 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I don't know why we all can't just eat whatever we want to eat and not worry about what someone else is eating or not eating.
posted by freakazoid at 5:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

In re shortening:

I have to tell you, I have been baking vegan since 2008, and I don't think shortening changes have made a difference in that time. And I say this with vanity, but it is broadly true: many, many people - including casual acquaintances from benefits for which I've baked - compliment me loudly, often and without being prompted on my baking. I am a very good vegan baker, from a tastiness standpoint, even though I'm a klutz so my recipes tend to look robust and rustic rather than professional. (Although I made these pecan caramel bars last weekend that looked pretty goddamn good though I say so myself.)

To my mind, what separates most good vegan baking from most blah vegan baking* is not the shortening or the ingredients per se, it's eschewing wacky things and choosing recipes that work with your ingredients. Every time I have a demoralizing vegan baked good - something with a leaden crumb, a weird aftertaste, unsuitable gumminess, etc - I find out that it has a lot of tofu in it, or was made with half chickpea flour, or substituted applesauce for six eggs in one cake, etc. Also, good vegan baking tends to rely on regular techniques - just make your damn pastry the way others make pastry, don't use lentil flour and soy oil. I would even say that as much as I have learned from Vegan Brunch and Isa Chandra Moskowicz books, some of her recent recipes are too zany to be tasty, IMO.

*with some exceptions; some people are gifted experimenters. It's just that being a really good experimenter is rarer than being a competent standard baker.
posted by Frowner at 5:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

You might be a Mafist. Maybe just coincidentally.

Huh. I had no idea that was a thing. Learn something new every day. I was enjoying my shiny new "flexitarian" label the last few years. (I dropped red meat originally because I wanted to eat food in general which was less resource intensive, but then I felt much better without it, so now it's for both reasons.)
posted by frumiousb at 5:35 PM on October 23, 2015

"like an analog for cheese

Man, people are working hard on this one."

Soft, flavored cheese spreads like Allouette, etc. are easy to substitute, and very satisfying. Take firmer ingredients like garlic, shallots, leeks, rosemary, etc., chop well. Cook on low temperature with a bit of olive oil, salt, pepper... basically, break down and soften the flavors a bit.

Take firm, Chinese style tofu -- freshly made tofu is preferable to packaged, if available. Drain it... if it's very moist, you might want to put a small plate on it and give it some time to press out excess water. Stick it in a blender with the cooked garlic, onions, and olive oil... add other herbs like fresh dill, caroway seeds (presoak in hot water to soften), capers, green onions, oil-packed or rehydrated dried tomatoes, favorite dried seasonings, paprika, cayenne, etc... whatever flavors you like most in herbed cheeses. Add salt, a bit of lemon juice, and a bit of nutritional yeast, tahini, and possibly a little dijon mustard. Blend until texture is roughly ricotta-like. I never use a recipe for this... I do it all by taste.

Really, tofu and soft cheese are extremely similar, once you add salt, lemon, and your favorite flavors to the mix.
posted by markkraft at 5:37 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

My dad, to this day, if we cook a vegetarian meal at home during the holidays, will look at it and then make himself a hamburger to go with the smallest acceptable portion of whatever we cooked. For people who feel this way, it's like the absence of meat is felt as the presence of some sort of toxin.

I don't know how old your father is, but my father was much the same. For him, it had to do with a childhood of scarcity on the farm and his perception of red meat as a luxury. It was a real point of pride for him that he could put red meat on the table every night for his children, and he experienced it as a lack of appreciation when we preferred to eat vegetarian food. We fought about it all the time when I was a kid, but now I understand him more. Our ideas of "the best" are imprinted young.
posted by frumiousb at 5:39 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

I don't know why we all can't just eat whatever we want to eat and not worry about what someone else is eating or not eating.

4 words: environmental consequences of meat
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 5:41 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

I have never heard a vegan talk about this.

Agreed. I was a strict, full-time vegan for over 3 years. Never talked about, nor heard anyone else talk about, "the glow".
posted by theorique at 5:43 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I honestly can't tell if that article means to make fun of its subjects or not. It's very odd.

That ambiguity is where the New York Times style section lives and moves and has its being.
posted by officer_fred at 5:44 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

I'm a vegetarian, but I know it would be easier to lose weight if I ate lean meat and eggs. It always bewilders me a little whenever a vegan loses weight and claims not to feel deprived.

When I was a strict vegan, I dropped about 50 lbs. It was probably pretty good down to about -30 lbs but beyond that I noticed a loss of physical strength and stamina (as measured by a benchmark CrossFit style workout I was doing at the time). Looking back, it would have made more sense to add back eggs and meat, but keep dairy out.

Another thing that I noticed was that I was unable to eat most baked goods or desserts, which reduced my intake of junk food substantially.
posted by theorique at 5:52 PM on October 23, 2015

4 words: environmental consequences of meat

Whoah there pilgrim...big farming is much destroying faster, it is.
posted by Benway at 5:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

If you want vegan cheese alternatives that are good enough to serve (uncooked, unheated, not disguised by other ingredients) at wine-and-cheese kind of events, you want Miyoko's Creamery.
posted by Lexica at 5:55 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Whoah there pilgrim...big farming is much destroying faster, it is.

I mean, we feed lots of the plants we grow to animals so that we can eat them. Would be more efficient to just grow plants to eat those instead of cycling their nutritional value through animals.
posted by Gymnopedist at 5:57 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

4 words: environmental consequences of meat

I would also posit the ethical implications of factory farmed meat, especially chicken/eggs and pigs. At least cattle get to be on the range for six to eighteen months before heading to a CAFO, while chicken and pigs often can't turn around or spread their wings and never get outside.

Looking back, it would have made more sense to add back eggs and meat, but keep dairy out.

I've been having a lot of success adding lots of peanut butter and tempeh. And Vegan Bodybuilding is a thing!
posted by GregorWill at 5:58 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Also, I really have yet to meet these preachy judgmental vegans, and my job right now is literally talking to people about veganism. Even (especially) folks who do activism are really friendly, because obviously to convince people to make an intimidating change in their lives like going vegan, you're going to have to find common ground and relate to people. Like, a big part of what I do is just about having people meet an in the flesh vegan with whom they can relate, so they're like "wow, this reasonable nice person is vegan, and I'm a reasonable nice person, maybe veganism is a cool thing after all?"
posted by Gymnopedist at 6:03 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

Like the other poster's fathers, I am an old person with old values.
Yes, my family raises chickens, turkeys, ducks, pigs, and veal and when vegans or vegetarians rail on the evils of farming it's as if you are accusing our entire family, for many generations, of abusing our animals and land. We've lived on the same land for generations and the animals live a cushy life.
We raise them well to eat them. They aren't abused and we want the land to sustain us for many more generations.
I've had lots of vegans insult my family, my way of life and culture without having the first idea about animal husbandry. I don't talk to vegans anymore.
posted by littlewater at 6:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

littlewater: Don't look now, but I think you're talking to some in this thread!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:22 PM on October 23, 2015 [11 favorites]

Sorry some vegans have insulted you. There are ethical ways to raise meat, but most meat you can buy in the US isn't ethically raised. I've discovered that my body doesn't need meat to thrive, and therefore no longer want to pay extra for ethically sourced meat. I've worked on a farm with chicken and goats, and slaughtered and dressed chicken and turkeys and deer, and if I had enough money to have my own land and my own farm, I probably would have some chicken and goats. But I don't think the factory farmed meat most Americans eat is good for our nation or our planet.
posted by GregorWill at 6:29 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

I don't think anyone needs to stop eating meat, unless its killing them. I do think that if they increased their plant intake and lowered their meat, dairy, oil, and sugar intake, they would likely do themselves and the planet some good.

Really, the best start is probably to learn how to cook, if you haven't yet. It is constantly quite stunning to me to discover just how many people can't cook a thing.

If you are in this category, my advice is to learn how to cook healthy with minimal time and effort.

My advice: Get a rice cooker... and learn how to not just cook your favorite rice automatically, but also how to use it to make a wide variety of easy, healthy "set-and-forget" meals.

Get a Foreman Grill or something similar. They are ridiculously easy to use, and can create a wide variety of tasty foods. Grill vegetables with a bit of seasoning, stick them in bread, and grill that too, add a bit of lettuce, hummus, and/or avocado... done. Ridiculously easy and inexpensive.
posted by markkraft at 6:33 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

Couple of comments deleted. This is an issue people feel strongly about, but it can only work here if people are respectful of where the other people in the thread are coming from on all sides.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 6:38 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I really have yet to meet these preachy judgmental vegans

You have to be joking, right? There's no question they actually exist, it's just that they're used as strawmen to slander everyone who takes a moral stance on meat.

I mean, if we had a handy time-machine, I'd take you to visit the folks who were giving me lectures about honey and yeast (yeast!!!) back when I was a not-good-enough vegan.

Now, of course, the image is so strong that if I dare to tell anyone I'm vegetarian, they'll look down at their plate guiltily, awaiting the inevitable lecture (that I never actually give), or maybe pre-emptively declaring that they really have been trying to cut down on meat, or hardly eat it, or only chicken and fish. It's...pretty awkward. I'm glad I mostly eat at home.
posted by mittens at 6:49 PM on October 23, 2015 [5 favorites]

I really have yet to meet these preachy judgmental vegans

As a former vegan of 7 years, I can say that while I didn't preach much, I did feel judgmental of meat eaters (sometimes still do). I saw meat eaters much like I see people who bought slave-picked cotton 200 years ago. Specifically, what they are doing is atrocious, but it's completely understandable given the context in which they were raised, and screaming at them isn't likely to change their minds.

If you are vegan because you believe, as I do, that factory farming is one of the most evil things ever done, and it is therefore obligatory not to fund it, then it's hard not to feel judgmental of other people. It's something you can try to get over, but it's always there. Feeling that way about pretty much everyone else was one of the reasons I couldn't deal with being vegan, and stopped. It's not that I no longer agree with my former vegan self—I just got, I dunno, tired.
posted by andrewpcone at 6:56 PM on October 23, 2015 [8 favorites]

Yeast is silly but honey is a pretty reasonable debate. It's clearly an animal product that violates the vegan stance against using animal products even if there isn't any notable ethical concerns with beekeeping in particular. I'm surprised so many vegans do eat it. Personally, I hate bees though so I don't mind exploiting them to produce honey for me.

Anyway, along with the exaggeration of the preachy vegan stereotype is a huge amount of under-appreciation for how preachy many meat eaters are. Lisa the Vegetarian remains one of my favorite things ever because it really captured how both sides can be preachy or dismissive or mean and how we have to learn to live with each other anyway.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:59 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

If I never hear "People Eating Tasty Animals" again I can die happy. No, dude, I'm not going to swoon when you shove your burger in my face like it's Dr. Tongue's Evil House of Pancakes. I ain't give a damn.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:09 PM on October 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Cashews blended with lemon juice makes a pretty tasty approximation of sour cream.

Also, I've known precisely one preachy vegan in my life, and she was pretty obnoxious and preachy about everything in general. On the other hand, I've known dozens of "mock the vegans" omnivores (the sort to tell me that whatever non-meat-based product I'm eating is "disgusting" as they nom down on bacon proclaiming how delicious it is because it's MEAT). These folks are also, generally speaking, obnoxious human beings all around. It seems to me that being insufferable about one's diet has less to do with the actual contents of the diet than it does with one's general willingness to criticize and mock those around you.
posted by whistle pig at 7:39 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

“the glow,” an irresistible incandescence that starts to emanate from within

I think only the Avatar gets that, and yeah Aang was vegetarian but I'm pretty sure it wasn't related to his diet.
posted by A dead Quaker at 8:42 PM on October 23, 2015 [3 favorites]

If you are vegan because you believe, as I do, that factory farming is one of the most evil things ever done, and it is therefore obligatory not to fund it, then it's hard not to feel judgmental of other people. It's something you can try to get over, but it's always there. Feeling that way about pretty much everyone else was one of the reasons I couldn't deal with being vegan, and stopped. It's not that I no longer agree with my former vegan self—I just got, I dunno, tired.

I don't really feel judgmental of folks who eat animal products, largely because I ate them for the vast majority of my life. I mean, I had no idea, especially about dairy and eggs. I think there's a tendency for some vegans to think it's kind of cool to be jaded and misanthropic, though, maybe a side effect of Yourofsky's popularity.

Anyway, for me, it's not really about factory farming specifically (although that's probably the worst of our animal use, and it's a big part of what got me on board) -- it's just about not inflicting unnecessary suffering or death on other living, feeling creatures when it's possible for me to avoid it. I think most folks are really on board with that. I mean, ask people "hey, do you think animals matter morally? do you think it's bad to inflict suffering and death on them unnecessarily?" and they'll say "yeah, duh!"
posted by Gymnopedist at 9:01 PM on October 23, 2015 [9 favorites]

I like the third picture in the slideshow. I don't think she's eyeing those foods the way they want us to think she's eyeing them.
posted by kafziel at 10:13 PM on October 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Not a vegan (relapsed vegetarian as well as relapsed "traditional diet"/Weston A Price type diet actually), but one thing I find funny is how every specialized diet, from keto to GAPS to vegan to paleo, when discussed online, is the number one reason why my hair didn't turn grey or cured my acne or cleared my heart issues, reduced my blood pressure, cured my sciatica, reduced my farts and eased my ADD symptoms or whatever. And, I believe those claims, for the most part (not the cured my HIV and cancer claims), because I believe something like 80% of health is what you eat (I mean it literally in someway becomes you're body, right?)

What's cool to me is that humans can thrive on such radically different diets. I don't just mean that some people can only be carb-free while others can only not eat meat to be healthy (of course those type people exist too), but that the a person can probably get more or less the same improved health (maybe optimal health is a different topic, though) by following different diets, sometimes very different.

The one downside to all of this, that I've seen, is that, especially online, every group of diet followers, based on their more or less honest positive experiences with their diet, have some folks that are absolutely convinced they've found the one true path to dietary and nutritional righteousness (to say nothing of lifestyle or morals). Praise Jesus!

To the dietary purists whatever the stripe, I know I sound like a wishy washy "Everyone wins! Let's all get along!" idiot or whatever. Maybe that's an accurate assessment? I do know for ME a diet very low in carbs, very high in fat and with moderate protein (all of it as "real" as possible for maximum nutrition and preferably prepared in a more old school way utilizing the 1000s of years of food/nutritional knowledge under humanity's belt) is the absolute surest and quickest way to health. But I'm sure I'd also do reasonably well on similar diets like versions of so-called "paleo" and boring old-school Atkins. I think most people also have a similar range of diets that they'd do reasonably well on.

But right now I'll get back to finishing my Hot Pocket™ and Bugles (joking, but not by much)...
posted by the lake is above, the water below at 10:58 PM on October 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

Oh, I forgot to add that the slideshow photos, especially the one about meditative alcohol free lifestyle, make me wanna barf.

You know what ages most people? Back breaking work (poverty or the fear of it) and reading shit like this in the NYT on the way to scratching out a living.
posted by the lake is above, the water below at 11:17 PM on October 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Glad to know that none of you know any insufferable holier-than-thou vegans. They're not fun.

Nor are the insufferable holier-than-thou meat-eaters. I have met way more of those. The vegans I've met (and living in Cali, it's many) have been polite and gracious about food. Unlike many carnivores I've met who have seemed determined to make anyone wiith a dietary restriction out to be unreasonably picky and willfully difficult.
posted by greermahoney at 11:31 PM on October 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

The glow thing? I have never, ever, heard any vegan I know mention it. But 2 of my besties are vegan and glowy and gorgeous. But they both work out, and one's a professional athlete, so it's probably an eating/exercise combo.
posted by greermahoney at 11:38 PM on October 23, 2015

Gymnopedist: "Would be more efficient to just grow plants to eat those instead of cycling their nutritional value through animals."

It depends. A lot of the cattle (and sheep) here are raised on open range that isn't economically suitable for food crops.
posted by Mitheral at 12:10 AM on October 24, 2015 [6 favorites]

I like the irony of naming her kid "Trapper."

I've had amazing vegan food and terrible vegan food, with not much in the middle. With the increased popularity, my expectation is to shift the terrible toward the average middle, which is only for the better.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:59 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Dip Flash: "I've had amazing vegan food and terrible vegan food, with not much in the middle."

I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I figured out the key to fantastic vegetarian (not sure it's vegan) food a while back: Just go to a good Ethiopian restaurant.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:18 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I figured out the key to fantastic vegetarian (not sure it's vegan) food a while back: Just go to a good Ethiopian restaurant.

That is a perfect example of wonderful food, but I've had at least as much perfectly awful vegetarian/vegan nutloaf. It's the middle ground that didn't used to be common, and hopefully will become much more prevalent. There is a real utility to food that is reliable and ok, like pepperoni pizza -- you don't expect the moon, but it's never terrible either. As vegan food becomes more normalized, hopefully we will get some regular, everyday go-to vegan dishes that have mass appeal.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:34 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

It's weird omnivores start bombarding you with these weird gotcha questions to desperately and angrily find out when you will eat meat. Essentially, I have discovered that omnis spend a hell of a lot more time thinking about how I eat than I do.
posted by Kitteh at 4:06 AM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

"But, like, if you were stranded on a desert island, and it was just you and a veal calf...."
posted by mittens at 4:16 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

It is very strange we keep getting stranded on desert islands!
posted by Kitteh at 4:19 AM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

That's why Vegan Cruise Lines went bankrupt.
posted by dr_dank at 4:47 AM on October 24, 2015 [10 favorites]

Mitheral: It depends. A lot of the cattle (and sheep) here are raised on open range that isn't economically suitable for food crops.

But I don't think (I don't have the information right in front of me) that cattle/sheep raised on this type of land alone could begin to keep up with worldwide demand, is the thing. And a lot of times, land/forest/whatever that has intrinsic value of its own gets cleared off in order to raise cattle. This site is pretty cool and has some information about the overall environmental impact of animal agriculture.

re: desert islands, I always wonder what the hypothetical pig on the island is eating. Like, can I eat the plants he's eating, instead of killing what is apparently the only other sentient creature on the island? I'm gonna get real lonely if the pig has to die.
posted by Gymnopedist at 5:10 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Presumably the pig eats acorns, which we can't digest without a good bit of preparation and tannin removal? And the calf eats grass, which we can't digest without adding in a stomach or two?
posted by mittens at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think I saw Meat Sweats once. They're sort of post-hardcore math-rock electropunk, right?
posted by acb at 6:52 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

A lot of the cattle (and sheep) here are raised on open range that isn't economically suitable for food crops.

An underappreciated thing about cattle is that they are amazing machines for converting indigestible cellulose into nutritious protein and fat.
posted by chrchr at 8:04 AM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

In traditional agriculture, cows eat grass, pigs eat garbage, and chickens forage for bugs and worms, and all of this food that people can't eat is converted to meat, eggs, and milk.
posted by chrchr at 8:09 AM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

Is the pig fat enough to use as a life raft, bringing us both to safety?
posted by Gymnopedist at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

The thing I've run into more than any moral sanctimoniousness in vegans is people who really want to convince you that some weird food substitute is "just like this meat/dairy/egg, product, you'll never tell the difference/It's even better!"

I don't think I've ever had that one work out.
posted by Ferreous at 8:42 AM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]

The thing I've run into more than any moral sanctimoniousness in vegans is people who really want to convince you that some weird food substitute is "just like this meat/dairy/egg, product, you'll never tell the difference/It's even better!"

Yes.

I think sometimes that's a language problem, where people mean "this thing takes the place of a meat/egg/dairy thing really well, so you don't miss it"....like the various cashew spreads that people use as cheese spread substitutes. Honestly, a good cashew spread is way better than mediocre cheese spread, and they can have some of the same flavor profile, especially if you're talking about spicy spreads. But they're not the same and you're not going to confuse them.

I had some vegan brie recently. The first notes were really very like a grocery store brie. The texture was rubbery like a grocery store brie. But the finish! Not brie-like at all! Pretty weird! I ended up wondering why put all this effort into making something that was a 2/3 substitute for so-so brie. I mean, I like some vegan cheeses - I will eat all the grilled daiya sandwiches you care to make, and indeed I can't have daiya in the house because I will eat nothing else until it's all gone.

Maybe I'll make nut cutlets this weekend.
posted by Frowner at 9:16 AM on October 24, 2015

I wouldn't say I've run into sanctimoniousness among vegans, but I have run into that thing where they try to educate me out of my reasons for not being vegan. I don't think it's done in a spirit of sanctimoniousness. I think they seriously just believe that if they share their tips and recipes with me, I will understand that being vegan is super easy and will make the leap. It's annoying, but it's annoying in the way that people who want you to watch their favorite TV show are annoying, not in the way that people who want you to convert so you don't go to Hell are annoying.

I am sort of neutral on this topic. I have a lot of sympathy for the reasons that people are vegan, and in a perfect world I probably would be vegan or close to it. I don't think it would work for me right now because of a number of practical and health-related factors. I like cooking vegan food, and I could foresee a situation in the future where it would be feasible for me to become vegan-ish. (Full-on food purity things are never going to work for me, so I think there are always going to be limits.) But that's not going to happen right now, and there is truly nothing to be gained from trying to convince me to try it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:22 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

My favorite was when someone asked my husband, "Well, if you came across a cow that just collapsed and died, you'd eat it then, wouldn't you?" He was like, "Wait, can we talk about the 'just collapsed and died' part? Because that is weird and maybe you wouldn't want to eat that cow either."
posted by Kitteh at 9:23 AM on October 24, 2015 [14 favorites]

Gymnopedist: "But I don't think (I don't have the information right in front of me) that cattle/sheep raised on this type of land alone could begin to keep up with worldwide demand, is the thing. "

Oh, it's not even close. Only one percenters would be able to afford beef if that was our only source. It's just that in some places they are a way for people to create food off of land that won't support plants suitable for human harvest. In a similar way bees turn pollen into honey.
posted by Mitheral at 9:35 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

I have met way, way more smug, chortling "If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?" omnivores than I have sanctimonious vegans. I think the defensiveness that those of us who eat meat feel when we find out someone is vegetarian or vegan stems in large part from our awareness that industrial meat production is fucking fucked up, and that we're choosing to participate in it anyway.

A diet free of animal products is never going to be feasible for me or for my family due to metabolic issues (mine) and far-ranging dietary carbohydrate intolerances (my daughter's). But to my reading, many of the indictments vegans make about those practices are indictments not of eating animal products, but of the industrial ways those products are produced -- and those we try to opt out of as much as possible. I buy my beef from an ethical rancher, I buy my seafood from an ethical fishery, I buy my eggs from my next-door neighbor. If we get a second freezer (or a bigger one), we'll buy pork from the same guy we get our beef from. We still buy industrial chicken and milk, though, because there are only 24 hours in a day and I can't make the economics work out within our budget. But that doesn't erase the negative ramifications of those industries, nor my guilt for participating in them, any more than I can get out from underneath the karma involved in owning my iPhone or my $15 Costco jeans.
posted by KathrynT at 9:41 AM on October 24, 2015 [10 favorites]

KathrynT, I hear you. I was recently thinking that I should try to be a more ethical consumer not just in my diet but in my total life, especially knowing what goes into making my Old Navy jeans and what not. I started poking around for ethically made clothing and yeah, I really really cannot afford it. I could save up and buy a nice piece once or twice a year, but it would take an absurd amount of time to have an ethical wardrobe.
posted by Kitteh at 9:46 AM on October 24, 2015

especially knowing what goes into making my Old Navy jeans and what not. I started poking around for ethically made clothing and yeah, I really really cannot afford it. I could save up and buy a nice piece once or twice a year, but it would take an absurd amount of time to have an ethical wardrobe.

One advantage, I've heard, of being not-a-teenager is that the staff at Old Navy type stores are never, ever watching you. As a result, you can get away with boosting pretty much anything you want. I'm way too square/nervous to do it myself, but AFAICT it's the most ethical way to dress yourself without either 1) spending a billion dollars on ethically produced garments, 2) spending every day off combing thrift stores, or 3) supporting the people who make a killing off of hyperexploiting garment workers.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:56 AM on October 24, 2015

Thrift store purchases don't work if you don't have a "normal" body type. I don't have a car and I don't have time to go root through the many thrift stores in the hopes I can find something that a) fits, and b)is something I want to wear.

Anyway, that is a derail.
posted by Kitteh at 10:18 AM on October 24, 2015

Personal quirk:

I really like vegan food, but I won't usually eat American vegan. I prefer my vegan food to have originated in a culture of veganism.

Vegan food that's design to replicate meat just seems to me to carry some thin layer of hypocrisy/artificiality/trying-too-hard that just makes it unpalatable to me, personally. Burger flavor comes from scorched cow, and fake burgers, even if they didn't come from cow, still have profited from the past scorching of cow. I'm fully OK with my cow desiring, cow eating ways. So if I want burger flavor, I accept that a cow died to create that desire and eat cow. The same goes for baked goods, cheese, etc. I'll eat meat and pastries, and I'll eat vegan, but not both at the same time.

Honestly, I think a lot of it is my Wisconsin upbringing. I was more ok with fake breakfast sausage in the past, but when fake cheese came out, that hit me right in the dairy farmer family green and gold. A line had to be drawn, so I drew it.

This quirk makes it hard for me to eat in American vegan restaurants where most protein fake meat or fake cheese in it. But food that evolved in a vegan or vegitarian culture? Sure. I'll go to town on a lentil soup, vegetable curry, or black beans and rice (yummy!)

Of course not everybody has to be me. If you love your seitan bacon, you do your thing. I'm actually completely ok with other people wanting to have their bacon and not kill a pig for it. It's just not for me. I'm really just saying that if you're inviting me out for vegan, I'd appreciate it if you pick a place that has a couple bean dishes on the menu for me to choose from.

(The preceeding rant has been based on true past events of being taken to vegan places without non-replica options).
(apologies for typos, iPad post)
posted by yeolcoatl at 10:19 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I like that I just read a comment advocating theft (at Old Navy, even!) for ethical reasons on MetaFilter of all places.

Seriously! I don't know why, but it made me chuckle this morning. So thank you. But... if you're gonna shoplift, why not shoplift some place worth going to jail over?;)
posted by the lake is above, the water below at 10:26 AM on October 24, 2015 [8 favorites]

Clarification: For me it's totally about vegan meat and not about vegan adaptations of formerly meat bearing foods. I'm totally ok with vegan chili with chunks of tofu or whole cashews. I'm just not personally ok with vegan chili that tries to replicate ground beef or chunks of steak.
posted by yeolcoatl at 10:31 AM on October 24, 2015

For a lot of people who want to go meatless, those products are a good introductory phase because you are sure as heck not gonna get my dad to eat anything I've made vegan that doesn't simulate something that had to die.

Also, Field Roast is the bomb, y'all. So good.
posted by Kitteh at 10:34 AM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Something that occurred to me about the (in)famous "glow": I've heard people who go Paleo, Primal, or do a Whole 30 claiming that they glow, or at least that their skin and hair look so much better. I surmise there might be something to the phenomenon, albeit usually not rising to the level of a glow, but more of an all-round healthy look: It's not about going vegan or Paleo or whatever, it's about eating more whole foods and fewer refined, packaged ones. The relative merits of whatever specific diet can be argued forever, but it's pretty well-established that whole foods - especially fruits and vegetables - are better than refined carbs and packaged industrial ones. When people go vegan, they (usually) start to eat a lot more vegetables, fruits, and nuts, hence the "glow."
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:41 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

The largest peer-reviewed longitudinal study of human nutrition ever conducted is pretty emphatic about the link between animal-protein consumption and cancer, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, & the suite of chronic health conditions that plague developed nations, America n particular. They even made a movie if you don't fancy reading the book.

Doesn't mention any "glows". Death, disease, and disability it has a fair bit to say about wrt nutrition.

Science.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 11:07 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

I like the Food Empowerment Project for talking about ethical food choices not just in terms of animals but also in terms of farm workers.
posted by Gymnopedist at 11:20 AM on October 24, 2015

I am waiting for the right time in this thread to show the super cute picture of my former boss's two rescue pigs. Holy cow, are they rad.
posted by Kitteh at 11:26 AM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

Is there a wrong time for showing pictures of pigs?
posted by mittens at 11:30 AM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

(also, I am totally on board with replicating meat-like textures in vegetarian and vegan food. Given all the textures it is possible to make--the creaminess, the crispiness, the little pops and crunches--why leave off this one particular texture? It makes for some funny attempts--Beyond Meat, for example, which is a little like biting down into tasty styrofoam, right down to the way it squeaks against your incisors--but hell yes serve up the Field Roast and other meatesque dishes!)
posted by mittens at 11:41 AM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]

Souley Vegan Here in Oakland.
Some people say you can't do delicious vegan Soul Food. They are quite wrong
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:10 PM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]

This is Annabelle and Suzie; Suzie's the larger fiestier pig my friend Elizabeth has had since the beginning of 2015. Annabelle was rescued about a month ago.
posted by Kitteh at 12:35 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

You can get quite lean eating a huge amount of meat.
posted by tarvuz at 12:40 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm getting to this thread super late, but.

I have conflicting views on veganism. I wish everyone could do it and I wish we had the food infrastructure to make it accessible to everyone but, frankly, we don't. Part of this is education I'm sure; even with what food some people are limited to there could probably be generally healthier and meat-reducing options. But a lot of lower income people have trouble eating healthier at all (referring especially to food deserts here), let alone cutting out meat and dairy.

I guess my negative feelings haven't really come from veganism, but from vegans. I have unfortunately had a lot of unpleasant encounters with vegans ranging from aggressive proselytizing (not necessary--I already knew the things they had to tell me, this was like 10ish years ago though so maybe that kind of thing has calmed down a little) to explicit judgment of my moral character.

That said, I ate vegetarian for about two years, and maybe it's just due to a higher probability of being exposed to omnivores, but like someone said upthread, yeah. There was always a ridiculous amount of commentary. That said, meat eaters are irritating but I don't think a single one ever accused me of being a fundamentally bad person. Actually maybe there was, but not in a way that mattered to me? Sort of a 'not a real American' vibe that frankly I don't care if I meet that standard.

Anyway ironically enough the stint of eating vegetarian is probably what triggered more severe reactions to allergies I might've already had, including a long list of vegetables and fruits and including soy, which I might've been allergic to all along but just wrote off as stomach issues. So to be given crap about my diet from vegans (yes, it still happens, though primarily online) is even more frustrating.

It'd be nice to keep the 'brand' as it were about environmentalism, compassion, etc. etc. rather than whatever this article is pushing towards, because eating meat is comparatively devastating to the environment. And this is not to even get into the animal cruelty practices. I think it's important for those of us who are able and can afford it monetarily and mentally to cut down on meat and dairy as much as possible. What I don't think helps is shaming people, and unfortunately that's mostly what I've been exposed to ever since I went back to meat, and it'd be nice to try to get some kind of organized initiative together to discuss the most effective ways to approach non-vegans while minimizing shaming. The principles of veganism as a movement, again, I am totally behind. But I guess those conversations might already be happening in vegan circles and because I'm an outsider I'm just not seeing it. That's part of why I'd be interested in the convo though. I feel like I might have useful things to say.

Anyway. Mostly I'd just like people to leave me alone about my dietary choices. I will (and have) happily inquire about healthier and meat/dairy free options when I can, but in the meantime I'm more interested in just not feeling sick all of the time by sticking to a small list of foods and establishing that before I get creative with the rest of my diet.
posted by nogoodverybad at 12:52 PM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

Mostly I'd just like people to leave me alone about my dietary choices.

Same, which is why I get weary and angry at gotcha questions from omnivores about what circumstances I would eat animal products under, where I get my protein, don't I miss bacon because bacon is the lifeblood of all foods, what do my friends and family think of me being vegan, etc. I have been friends with vegans a lot longer than I ever been one and I cannot think of one of them who gave me the third degree when I wasn't. Maybe those kind of vegans are out there, but I think they are a dying breed. Mostly we just want to talk about all the good food we get to eat these days!
posted by Kitteh at 12:56 PM on October 24, 2015 [5 favorites]

The thing I've run into more than any moral sanctimoniousness in vegans is people who really want to convince you that some weird food substitute is "just like this meat/dairy/egg, product, you'll never tell the difference/It's even better!"

I don't think I've ever had that one work out.

I like Just Mayo better than mayo, otherwise yeah substitutes usually fall short. A lot hits the "good enough" level though and I appreciate that they often have some useful for me nutritional benefits as well.
posted by Drinky Die at 1:04 PM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Whenever I mentioned that I was a vegan, I noticed that reactions tended to polarize into a few characteristic responses. Sometimes I got a combination of those responses.

The "respect" response: "Wow, that's great, you must be really healthy."
The "I could never" response: "I love {bacon, steak, burgers, cheese} too much to ever do that."
The "Are you judging me?" response: "If I order a pastrami sandwich, should I face away from you when I'm eating."

I hardly ever got the third response because I usually made a joke about being vegan to assuage people's anxiety and fend off the inevitable questions: "I'm a vegan, but don't worry, I'm not one of those vegans". I've honestly never met very many of 'those' vegans - they are more often straw men - but people expected me to be one of them.

People's emotional reactions to veganism seem to be an example of a more common pattern - when a person does something "extreme" in their personal life, other people are often triggered by it, for various psychological reasons. The ultra marathoner may press the buttons of the person who knows they should start exercising 30 minutes a day, three times a week. An earlier thread (nobody likes to be reminded, even implicitly, of his own selfishness.) about the woman who structured her life to donate most of her income to charitable causes triggered people (me included) who wanted to justify not donating most of their income to charity.
posted by theorique at 1:11 PM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

When I was student I was what I called a "home" vegan. When at home it was always vegan - all Indian style vegetarian food, replacing the ghee with some sort of oil. Rarely even white sugar. When I was out I was full on omnivore. When someone was offering to pay for food or at someone's house where they made a spread I ate everything. Why? Poverty. So it always rubs me a little the wrong way when class gets mixed up with things people need to live. While I think we'd all benefit if the Western World ate more veg I'm not sure the article above helps us much in that direction.

Does anyone actually think of vegans as "spartan and dowdy"? Maybe its just my circle but the ones I know are definitely not that. Though I'd say a large portion are more carbovores rather than vegetarian or vegan.
posted by Ashwagandha at 1:46 PM on October 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Ashwagandha, I think you are absolutely right about a large portion being "carbovores" thing! I work at a natural foods co-op and the two heftiest people on staff are a vegan and a vegetarian (me) and we're eating a lot of large portions of carbs.

The vegan doesn't glow. I glow because I'm a SWIMMER!
posted by a humble nudibranch at 2:12 PM on October 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

> I've had lots of vegans insult my family, my way of life and culture without having the first idea about animal husbandry. I don't talk to vegans anymore.

I've had this conversation with a lot of people. What happens after that is something like this. "That must have been awful! Can you tell me about the last time that happened?" "What do you mean?" "Well, what did they say?" "Oh, they were rude." "I mean, what exactly did they say? How did it come up?" "Oh, I can't remember."

I'm not a vegan but I know a lot of them. I've rarely if ever seen vegans offer unsolicited comments to meat eaters, but I have many times seen vegans get testy and spit out some inconvenient facts after being grilled (hah!) about their lack of desire to eat meat.

I just went on a trip with two vegans and a large number of carnivores. The only people who brought it up were the carnivores, who brought it up repeatedly. I don't even think they realize they're being rude by repeatedly asking people to justify their lives.

But non-vegans are always disturbed by the very existence of vegans - even if they say nothing. If they are right, then you are wrong. It calls underlying axioms of your life into question - doubly so if you make your living from meat and dairy.

The argument that it's your "way of life and culture" is deeply suspect for me. If what you are doing is morally right, it is irrelevant whether you just started doing it or have been doing it for a thousand years. People use this same argument to justify awful things like female circumcision and slavery.

Farming meat and diary pollutes the planet far more than vegetable sources of food; it contributes massively to climate change; meat in quantity is not good for your health; and you are killing living creatures (and despite what you say, almost certainly causing them lots of unnecessary pain).

You might think that the pleasure of eating meat is worth this - it's worth discussing but you can't just get away with, "Once a vegan was rude to me, so I don't have to think through the moral consequences of what I do."
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 3:21 PM on October 24, 2015 [13 favorites]

I think you are absolutely right about a large portion being "carbovores" thing!

I tease my veg friends that I eat more vegetables as an omnivore than they do in a week as vegetarians!
posted by Ashwagandha at 4:09 PM on October 24, 2015

I've had this conversation with a lot of people. What happens after that is something like this. "That must have been awful! Can you tell me about the last time that happened?" "What do you mean?" "Well, what did they say?" "Oh, they were rude." "I mean, what exactly did they say? How did it come up?" "Oh, I can't remember."

Right, because how dare they not meticulously document times they were made extremely uncomfortable by someone's verbal assault in order to stand up to your cross-examination about the authenticity of their experience.
posted by kafziel at 8:21 PM on October 24, 2015 [3 favorites]

To get away from the hippy/New Age stereotypes, I have to point out that Soylent is vegan. So now the most efficient method of maximizing nutritional intake is vegetarian.

It doesn't even interfere with socialization. During holidays, one can take a full ten minute nutrient break with biorelatives and friends, and get back to coding. Which is really what's important.
posted by happyroach at 8:52 PM on October 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Right, because how dare they not meticulously document times they were made extremely uncomfortable by someone's verbal assault in order to stand up to your cross-examination about the authenticity of their experience.

Eh. People make shit up all the time. And when something they say doesnt quite ring true, ehy not question them? I mean if an assertion is brought up in a conversation, why not push back?
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 12:20 AM on October 25, 2015

Let's drop the "some people say that some other people say some things: liars or truthtellers?" tangent, please.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:57 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am affronted and upset by the fact that the guy's name is Rich Roll and not one single person here has made the utterly necessary Rick Roll joke.

Honestly, it's like you people don't even care about humans or something.
posted by ZaphodB at 2:26 AM on October 25, 2015

While in the pizza shoppe last night, waiting for my meat lovers, I came across this recipe for a Vegan Big Mac, so I figure I may as well share it.

Vegan cooking baffles me (I dabbled with a book called 'How It All Vegan', I think, and a few blogs looking at various meat substitutes - everything seemed to be water intensive and so much work), but I enjoy reading the recipes, but I am tempted to try things every so often. I always fail, but somewhere there's a magic formula.
posted by Mezentian at 5:50 AM on October 25, 2015

(how it all vegan also has a companion volume, the garden of vegan, that is also pretty easy to cook from!)
posted by mittens at 6:40 AM on October 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm making this enchilada casserole today, Mezentian, if you want a suggestion to try. It's pretty involved and pretty expensive, thanks to the cashews, but I've made it a couple of times and it's always come out well for me. I'm also making these roasted sweet potatoes and peppers, which are vegan if you substitute agave nectar for the honey.

The internet is full of yummy vegan recipe sites, if you want to try out vegan cooking. I'm not a vegan, but I'm trying to eat a less plant-based diet, and I find vegan recipe sites really helpful. Pinterest can also be a good source of vegan recipes.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:01 AM on October 25, 2015 [4 favorites]

Posting something like Nirvana Enchilada and then not posting something that rhymes with "a mosquito, my libido"... unless you are trying to tell me vegans eat bugs... is wrong.

It's pretty involved and pretty expensive, thanks to the cashews, but I've made it a couple of times and it's always come out well for me

I don't mind involved.
And, admittedly, I am trying to mix currencies, volumes, Imperial, and costs, but I doubt that is super expensive.
posted by Mezentian at 6:43 AM on October 26, 2015

World Health Organization report: Processed meats like ham, sausage, bacon, & hot dogs cause cancer. Red meat in general probably cause cancer.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:27 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]

I have met way, way more smug, chortling "If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?" omnivores than I have sanctimonious vegans. I think the defensiveness that those of us who eat meat feel when we find out someone is vegetarian or vegan stems in large part from our awareness that industrial meat production is fucking fucked up, and that we're choosing to participate in it anyway.

A million times this. Absolutely nothing in my life that people who are prone to mockery think is worthy of mockery--not the fact that I'm a woman, not the fact that I'm bisexual, not the fact that I'm a pacifist, not the fact that I'm not going to have children--has invited as much open derision as my dietary choices. It's really remarkable. I've lost count of the number of people who have taken my avoidance of animal products as a personal insult.

Just like I don't want anyone to tell me what I can and cannot eat, I am very careful not to harangue others for their food choices. My fiancé will eat anything put in front of him, and I have absolutely no problem with that because I respect him as a human and believe his choices are his to make without being judged.

What you eat is none of my business. What you eat is not a personal assault on me. Likewise, what I don't eat is none of your business, and is not a personal assault on you. Yet over and over again, it has been taken as such.
posted by jesourie at 2:58 PM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I just noticed this too.

It's pretty damn important... I expect most will never hear about it.

How serious is it? Well, eating 1/10th of a lb. of processed meats per day translates to about a 20% increased risk of certain cancers. That's about the amount of meat you get in a "healthy" Subway turkey sandwich. It's the equivalent of just one hot dog -- or maybe two slices of bacon -- per day.

... and if you eat more, which nearly everyone does?!
posted by markkraft at 10:22 PM on October 26, 2015

It's also a very good argument against processed vegetarian "meats", which are generally processed in similar ways, with similar substances. The jury is still out there, but it does seem that there is something about the processing that increases risks.
posted by markkraft at 10:25 PM on October 26, 2015

The USDA recommends in its 2010 Dietary Guidelines for America 3.3 ounces—or 0.21 pounds—of meat per day of red meat, pork and poultry for the average adult on a 2,000 calorie diet. The average adult who consumes meat eats more like 0.36 pounds of meat per day.

A LOT of that meat is processed, too. An average American with an average diet would consume a dangerous amount of meat, EVEN if they lowered their meat intake by over 50% to follow USDA recommendations.

Our current USDA recommendations would improve most people's health, if followed... but they also cause cancer.
posted by markkraft at 10:39 PM on October 26, 2015

a 20% increased risk of certain cancers.

Bringing the total risk of having those cancers up to what?
posted by Drinky Die at 10:40 PM on October 26, 2015

A level serious enough for the WHO to make a pretty stern announcement.

Smoke 'em if you've got em.
posted by markkraft at 10:42 PM on October 26, 2015

It's also a very good argument against processed vegetarian "meats", which are generally processed in similar ways, with similar substances.

If you've got more information about that, I'd love to read it. It's the same thing I was wondering about, especially just having eaten veggie sausage for breakfast. DID I JUST GIVE MYSELF CANCER?
posted by mittens at 5:11 AM on October 27, 2015

There has been a good deal of talk from doctors and nutritionists in the vegan community as to what makes a healthy vegan diet vs. an unhealthy one... and the general consensus is heavily processed foods, that strip out the natural fiber and water. and add salt, sugar, fats, and lots of chemicals.

Think about it a bit like a computer having problems, only to have a thousand crappy pieces of questionable software running in the background, most of which you don't know anything about. The obvious advice a technician would give is to start up with none of this stuff running, and then run a cleaner, to remove anything known to be bad... and then, if that didn't work, to limit things starting up to just those things they know are safe for your computer, without conflicts with other safe things, or unknown, largely untested code.

My personal guess/hope is that there is something / some things bad about meat when it comes to cancer, and that processing that meat makes it easier to readily absorb that something bad, as well as possibly adding on limited risks unique to processing. Which is to say, your processed veggie sausages might only have those rather limited risks.

However, just because there is something unique to meat that is bad for you -- which, if you pay attention to the China Project, seems to make sense... it doesn't follow that there aren't things unique to plants that can't be harmful too. Oils, for example. Or carbohydrates and sugars, stripped of the water and fiber which tends to safely flush things out of our system, without overloading the body.

So no, I'm not saying you should stop eating your veggie sausages. However, you should be aware of the potential risks, and might want to focus on how you can add more unrefined plants to your diet.
posted by markkraft at 8:07 AM on October 27, 2015

Another thing worth noting... how you eat a food -- even meat -- may be as important than the food itself, in some ways.

For instance, do you eat that processed meat sandwich with a piece of lettuce, lots of mayo, on white bread, with a side of fries, washed down with a soda... or do you eat it loaded with grilled vegetables and kale, on high-fiber whole grain bread, with a side of salad, and freshly made iced tea? To what extent does the interplay of a potentially dangerous food with other healthy foods negate its risk?

The same thing applies to vegetarian food. Is tofu good for you... or is it one of the earliest processed foods? If it is potentially bad for you, then how come generations of Asians have eaten it with no obvious health risks? Is it bad for you if you refine it further into veggie snacks, or artificial meat.. or does it just tend to take on some of the risks of processed meat, the more you make it like processed meat?

Well, it could be that tofu is quite healthy when eaten primarily with a lot of fresh vegetables, with all their natural fibers, on a bed of whole grain rice, prepared with no refined oils and minimal salt.

Tofu originated 2,000 years ago... but for most of that history, it was eaten with whole grain rice, and not white rice. The technology to strip the bran off the rice didn't even exist until 150 years ago, and took some time to come to China.

What things like the China Study show us is that traditional diets have health benefits that are a potential cure to the explosion of health problems we face today, but that technology and food oftentimes don't mix.

A soybean is not tofu is not a veggie patty. An ear of corn is not corn syrup. And when the corn industry says "It comes from corn and is all natural!" we should mock them incessantly.

You change the food, you change the risks.
posted by markkraft at 8:35 AM on October 27, 2015

This Wired article explains what the WHO report really says.

It's not nearly as scary as the headlines make it sound.

Eating two strips of bacon per day increases your chance of contracting GI cancer from 5% to 6%.

Meanwhile, smoking increases your chance of getting lung cancer by 2500%.
posted by chrchr at 10:26 PM on October 27, 2015 [2 favorites]

Wait... wait... how did I miss this.

Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey: Doesn't mention any "glows". Death, disease, and disability it has a fair bit to say about wrt nutrition.

Science.

So what you're saying is that you're quoting SCIENCE.

Well, that changes everything.
posted by tzikeh at 8:58 AM on October 28, 2015

Eating two strips of bacon per day increases your chance of contracting GI cancer from 5% to 6%.

That's a 20% increase! Sounds scary. But a 20% increase in a small number leads to another small number.
posted by theorique at 10:30 AM on October 28, 2015

And look, I love bacon, but my reading of the report is two strips per day, EVERY DAY. I wouldn't last a month. Bacon is a sometimes food.
posted by GuyZero at 10:31 AM on October 28, 2015

What is a meat sweat? I eat meat. I sometimes sweat. I think the latter has a much better correlation with walking uphill than dinner. Is this the sort of problem only Americans have?
posted by biffa at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2015

I agree that being vegan has lots of health and beauty benefits, but more importantly it's more ethical. It's all about using the right recipes and then it's not difficult whatsoever.
posted by PD5370 at 3:41 PM on October 31, 2015

Mmm. Ok. So first of all, thanks for that link, PD5370, because that looks like a great source of recipes. And second of all, that's kind of what I'm talking about with vegan evangelists. My issues with becoming vegan don't have anything to do with a lack of recipes. Pointing to recipes is great and helpful, because I do love vegan recipes, but it's not going to make me suddenly see the light. What's easy for you isn't necessarily equally easy for everyone else.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:11 PM on October 31, 2015 [1 favorite]

« Older Paint Stripper | The earlier French revolution Newer »

This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments

MetaFilter

Less hippie, more hip
October 23, 2015 1:57 PM Subscribe

Tags

Share

Less hippie, more hip October 23, 2015 1:57 PM Subscribe

Tags

Share

Less hippie, more hip
October 23, 2015 1:57 PM Subscribe