The Full English Brexit
June 27, 2016 8:13 AM Subscribe
Brexit: why Britain left the EU, explained with a simple cartoon [Vox] // UK appeals for calm as markets drop, EU leaders huddle [AP] // David Cameron resigns after UK votes to leave European Union [Guardian], Brexit: David Cameron rules out second EU referendum [Independent] // Brexit: Six key questions after Britain's vote to exit the EU [BBC] // Brexit loophole? MPs must still vote in order for Britain to leave the EU, top lawyers say [Independent] // Brexit: Germany rules out informal negotiations [BBC]
Brexit: Racist abuse in UK reported since vote to leave EU [CNN]
UK faces Brexit crisis after Europe’s leaders demand: ‘Get out now’ [Guardian]
Boris Johnson 'I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe – and always will be '[Telegraph] with commentary from Yves Smith: Boris “Just Kidding” Johnson Outlines His Rainbows and Unicorns Brexit Plan[NC]
WELCOME TO EUROPEAN UNION 'B' [Politico EU, and actually Poland]:
Thoughts on the sociology of Brexit
Brexit is being driven by English nationalism. And it will end in self-rule [Guardian]
The Whistle and The Dogs: When Being Racist Doesn't Matter
The reactions to Brexit show its true significance
Why Brexit happened and what it means
Live from the British Conservatives' Self-Made Gehenna: The Full English Brexit:
links to comments (mine) in prior longthread
previously 1
previously 2
previously 3
previously 4
SEE THE FUTURE, NOW:
Get a glimpse of Dalston’s apocalyptic, post-Brexit future
A Brexit State of Mind: The Vision Thing - "That’s just how it is when the old ideas have reached the limits of their powers, but new ideas have yet to prove themselves. There’s a lot of lurching about, grabbing on to anything that can be shaped into halfway sensible discourse. Yes, let a thousand flowers bloom. But nine hundred ninety-five of them will rot. Such is the way of the world."
previously: UK Goes To Polls In EU Referendum
Brexit: Racist abuse in UK reported since vote to leave EU [CNN]
UK faces Brexit crisis after Europe’s leaders demand: ‘Get out now’ [Guardian]
Boris Johnson 'I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe – and always will be '[Telegraph] with commentary from Yves Smith: Boris “Just Kidding” Johnson Outlines His Rainbows and Unicorns Brexit Plan[NC]
WELCOME TO EUROPEAN UNION 'B' [Politico EU, and actually Poland]:
Thoughts on the sociology of Brexit
Brexit was not fuelled by a vision of the futureMeet 10 Britons who voted to leave the EU [Guardian] - The Revolt Of The Losers Is Just Beginning[Washington Post] in the Land of Hope And Glory [NC]- " Despite my highest respect for Wren-Lewis, he left the most important figure out of his calculation: For the increasingly financially squeezed unemployed and receivers of benefits in Britain what does it matter if GDP shrinks after Brexit. Their plight can only become worse, come Brexit or not. "
One of the most insightful things I saw in the run-up to the referendum was this video produced by openDemocracy’s Adam Ramsey and Anthony Barnett discussing their visit to Doncaster, another Labour heartland. They chose Doncaster because it looked set to be a strong pro-Leave location, and wanted to understand what was at work in this. Crucially, they observed that – in strong contrast to the Scottish ‘Yes’ movement – Brexit was not fuelled by hope for a different future. On the contrary, many Leavers believed that withdrawing from the EU wouldn’t really change things one way or the other, but they still wanted to do it. I’ve long suspected that, on some unconscious level, things could be even stranger than this: the self-harm inflicted by Brexit could potentially be part of its appeal. It is now being reported that many Leave voters are aghast at what they’ve done, as if they never really intended for their actions to yield results.
Brexit is being driven by English nationalism. And it will end in self-rule [Guardian]
The Whistle and The Dogs: When Being Racist Doesn't Matter
A memory I also go to is the brother in law of an ex of mine who considered the word racist a curious badge of honour. He did not consider himself a racist or think racism itself was a good thing but the word was an alien insult profligately shouted by an alien cultural class who looked down on him and his. This is the small c conservative equivalent of a left winger being proud when he is called a "Trotskyite homo-Islamist" by the Daily Mail. Michael and his friends were from a small town in Lancashire and spoke as much about thieving bankers as they did about them "Asian cabbies whom don't mix". What struck me about about them in our chats was their lack of knowledge about their radical history, heritage or agency. They were abandoned by both liberals and conservatives alike, but at least conservative could still prey on their fears and talk in their language.LINK COMPILATIONS:
The reactions to Brexit show its true significance
Why Brexit happened and what it means
Live from the British Conservatives' Self-Made Gehenna: The Full English Brexit:
links to comments (mine) in prior longthread
previously 1
previously 2
previously 3
previously 4
SEE THE FUTURE, NOW:
Get a glimpse of Dalston’s apocalyptic, post-Brexit future
A Brexit State of Mind: The Vision Thing - "That’s just how it is when the old ideas have reached the limits of their powers, but new ideas have yet to prove themselves. There’s a lot of lurching about, grabbing on to anything that can be shaped into halfway sensible discourse. Yes, let a thousand flowers bloom. But nine hundred ninety-five of them will rot. Such is the way of the world."
previously: UK Goes To Polls In EU Referendum
Pre-leavening the seriousness: A UK minister who's now out :-)
posted by chavenet at 8:24 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 8:24 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I know it´s normally frowned upon but I will crosspost here from the end of the last mega thread
Geoffrey Robertson QC
How to stop Brexit: get your MP to vote it down.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Geoffrey Robertson QC
How to stop Brexit: get your MP to vote it down.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
You know, I know the Brexist isn't a good thing, but I do enjoy watching all those establishment politicians heads spinning, all asking "why don't people trust us anymore."
Or rather, I would enjoy it, if it weren't so damn frustrating and frightening.
Even Tony fucking Blair had the audacity to ask why people didn't trust the establishment. I mean, it's not like he dragged the country into a phony war and lied through his fucking teeth about it or anything.
Oh, wait.
Beyond the sarcasm, though, neoliberalism has brought us decades of the rug being pulled out from under the common man (and yes, the "common man" does include xenophobic fuckheads), and people wonder why uneducated xenophobic racists turn to blame their problems on foreigners when the news is telling them that their conservative government is doing the right thing, and that it must be this other bogeyman: terrorism.
Yes, Brexit definitely was about racism, but I think we'd all be remiss to not step back and look at how neoliberal economics has wrought the current situation, and without big changes, we're stepping headlong either into facism lead by fanatics who are finally tired of getting screwed but never really figured out who was screwing them, and so blame the wrong people (let's also not pretend that certain media outlets and decades of the WAR ON TER'RISM didn't help breed this deep seated racism.) or into a scary Big Brother future where the old elites try to keep control by using new technology instead of realizing they are huge fuck ups.
Acting like it all just came out of nowhere is missing the fucking picture.
---
To me, this is really no different than Bernie Sanders supporters saying they would rather vote for Trump than Clinton.
Those people don't care what kind of change they get, as long as it is genuinely change, something different from the status quo. They are just sick of shit as it stands and no current politicians actually make any real changes to help them.
I highly suspect there was a good deal of that attitude in the Leave vote as well.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [88 favorites]
Or rather, I would enjoy it, if it weren't so damn frustrating and frightening.
Even Tony fucking Blair had the audacity to ask why people didn't trust the establishment. I mean, it's not like he dragged the country into a phony war and lied through his fucking teeth about it or anything.
Oh, wait.
Beyond the sarcasm, though, neoliberalism has brought us decades of the rug being pulled out from under the common man (and yes, the "common man" does include xenophobic fuckheads), and people wonder why uneducated xenophobic racists turn to blame their problems on foreigners when the news is telling them that their conservative government is doing the right thing, and that it must be this other bogeyman: terrorism.
Yes, Brexit definitely was about racism, but I think we'd all be remiss to not step back and look at how neoliberal economics has wrought the current situation, and without big changes, we're stepping headlong either into facism lead by fanatics who are finally tired of getting screwed but never really figured out who was screwing them, and so blame the wrong people (let's also not pretend that certain media outlets and decades of the WAR ON TER'RISM didn't help breed this deep seated racism.) or into a scary Big Brother future where the old elites try to keep control by using new technology instead of realizing they are huge fuck ups.
Acting like it all just came out of nowhere is missing the fucking picture.
---
To me, this is really no different than Bernie Sanders supporters saying they would rather vote for Trump than Clinton.
Those people don't care what kind of change they get, as long as it is genuinely change, something different from the status quo. They are just sick of shit as it stands and no current politicians actually make any real changes to help them.
I highly suspect there was a good deal of that attitude in the Leave vote as well.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [88 favorites]
Yes, Brexit definitely was about racism, but I think we'd all be remiss to not step back and look at how neoliberal economics has wrought the current situation,
Wait, do you want integrated markets (like the EU fosters), or not?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait, do you want integrated markets (like the EU fosters), or not?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.
Well, then they're fucking dumb, because unaccountable bureaucrats in London are still going to be doing all of the heavy lifting. But I guess they'll be native-English-speaking unaccountable bureaucrats, so that's not really racism either.
posted by Etrigan at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [38 favorites]
Well, then they're fucking dumb, because unaccountable bureaucrats in London are still going to be doing all of the heavy lifting. But I guess they'll be native-English-speaking unaccountable bureaucrats, so that's not really racism either.
posted by Etrigan at 8:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [38 favorites]
Boris Johnson: "British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."
Well, sure, if Britain wants to pay a premium for it. Premium rates, no automaticity, and no say in the rules. In that sense, ol' Boris is right.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:39 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, sure, if Britain wants to pay a premium for it. Premium rates, no automaticity, and no say in the rules. In that sense, ol' Boris is right.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:39 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.
I think this is a really good argument for why we need better education about the political and legislative process, starting formally in schools and continuing via proper engagement with the mechanics of democracy throughout the lifetime of all our citizens, yes?
(this seems like a more constructive response than banging my head repeatedly off a table.)
posted by Catseye at 8:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
I think this is a really good argument for why we need better education about the political and legislative process, starting formally in schools and continuing via proper engagement with the mechanics of democracy throughout the lifetime of all our citizens, yes?
(this seems like a more constructive response than banging my head repeatedly off a table.)
posted by Catseye at 8:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments removed. Let's not start this off with the laziest possible "well here's my simple, unsourced explanation why X is correct and Y is not, QED" fight-starter. There's several thousand comments in the previous thread if you're just catching up with the conversation and want to temper your hot takes.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
Wait, do you want integrated markets (like the EU fosters), or not?
I do, but as we've seen in the first world with stagnating wages and crumbling social safety nets, most of the benefits of the worldwide capitalist market go to the people lowest on the scale, and the benefits to them are really marginal at best, in my opinion.
Yeah, great that someone in China is now making $2 in a factory instead of $1 a day in the fields.
The problem is that it is undermining any semblance of a decent life in first world countries, the same countries whose safety nets have been dismantled for decades.
Also, I just have fundamental issues with us valuing human labor differently based on the country someone was born in. To me, those people are human, and their labor should be valued as much as anybodies, not a fraction of the value of my labor, because they are in China.
Anyway, I guess my point is that a lot of people do not consider any major first-world governments to be capable of proposing worthwhile solutions. Solutions that benefit all, not just a few. Solutions that don't reduce our quality of life while improving the quality of life of others around the world.
A EU specific example would be how things were handled with Greece. Was forcing the Greek people to suffer over debt really the best solution? How can the EU even begin to feel unified after such a clusterfuck? The Greeks are mad that they've been made to suffer even more than other European countries, and what for, what great good came of it? How can anyone look at how all that went down and go "Oh yeah, it totally makes sense to make millions suffer over fucking government bureaucracy."
Maybe it's because of all the fucking austerity we've been made to suffer after decades of lies about terrorism in the middle east. Maybe we're tired of war propping up economies and tired of what little help we have cut out from under us when we're suffering.
Me, I have zero faith that current world leaders have any fucking clue what they are doing other than looting the coffers before the whole show falls apart.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:44 AM on June 27, 2016 [40 favorites]
I do, but as we've seen in the first world with stagnating wages and crumbling social safety nets, most of the benefits of the worldwide capitalist market go to the people lowest on the scale, and the benefits to them are really marginal at best, in my opinion.
Yeah, great that someone in China is now making $2 in a factory instead of $1 a day in the fields.
The problem is that it is undermining any semblance of a decent life in first world countries, the same countries whose safety nets have been dismantled for decades.
Also, I just have fundamental issues with us valuing human labor differently based on the country someone was born in. To me, those people are human, and their labor should be valued as much as anybodies, not a fraction of the value of my labor, because they are in China.
Anyway, I guess my point is that a lot of people do not consider any major first-world governments to be capable of proposing worthwhile solutions. Solutions that benefit all, not just a few. Solutions that don't reduce our quality of life while improving the quality of life of others around the world.
A EU specific example would be how things were handled with Greece. Was forcing the Greek people to suffer over debt really the best solution? How can the EU even begin to feel unified after such a clusterfuck? The Greeks are mad that they've been made to suffer even more than other European countries, and what for, what great good came of it? How can anyone look at how all that went down and go "Oh yeah, it totally makes sense to make millions suffer over fucking government bureaucracy."
Maybe it's because of all the fucking austerity we've been made to suffer after decades of lies about terrorism in the middle east. Maybe we're tired of war propping up economies and tired of what little help we have cut out from under us when we're suffering.
Me, I have zero faith that current world leaders have any fucking clue what they are doing other than looting the coffers before the whole show falls apart.
posted by deadaluspark at 8:44 AM on June 27, 2016 [40 favorites]
Watching Parliament it seems like Cameron wants and forsees Norway. Or at least he's desperately assuring everyone that's the best situation.
I realize the next PM can blatantly ignore the desires of Cameron but what the fuck was this all about if the UK is going to end up in the same boat but with no say?
posted by Talez at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I realize the next PM can blatantly ignore the desires of Cameron but what the fuck was this all about if the UK is going to end up in the same boat but with no say?
posted by Talez at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
It 100% wasn't "all about racism" or immigration.
Whilst I voted remain I do know a lot of people that voted leave. And none of them have ever given me cause to think them racist. Two of them are in marriages where one party is an immigrant. I'm sure a lot of people just didn't like all the foreign accents they kept hearing... but to say that was the start and end of it is to grossly miss the many other points. My wife is half-indian and was very conflicted about the vote. She wanted more movement of people and has desires to move to a hotter climate one day but felt the other issues were dragging her towards "Leave".
EVERYONE that I know who voted leave, and have shared their thinking, (so obvious bias's abound in my sample) had one of these two reasons in their list:
- They did not respect the EU as a law making body. They felt it was unaccountable, detached and not representative of their interests. They didn't trust it to stick to the new deal offered and expected everything to move towards more and bigger "EUness" in the future.
- If they were old enough to have voted in the last referendum they said they felt cheated. They voted to join a common market and got co-opted in to a political union over the following decades.
posted by samworm at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2016 [32 favorites]
Whilst I voted remain I do know a lot of people that voted leave. And none of them have ever given me cause to think them racist. Two of them are in marriages where one party is an immigrant. I'm sure a lot of people just didn't like all the foreign accents they kept hearing... but to say that was the start and end of it is to grossly miss the many other points. My wife is half-indian and was very conflicted about the vote. She wanted more movement of people and has desires to move to a hotter climate one day but felt the other issues were dragging her towards "Leave".
EVERYONE that I know who voted leave, and have shared their thinking, (so obvious bias's abound in my sample) had one of these two reasons in their list:
- They did not respect the EU as a law making body. They felt it was unaccountable, detached and not representative of their interests. They didn't trust it to stick to the new deal offered and expected everything to move towards more and bigger "EUness" in the future.
- If they were old enough to have voted in the last referendum they said they felt cheated. They voted to join a common market and got co-opted in to a political union over the following decades.
posted by samworm at 8:47 AM on June 27, 2016 [32 favorites]
but what the fuck was this all about
It was about (among other things) Boris using the referendum as a proxy vote of no confidence in Cameron so that he could become Prime Minister.
posted by kersplunk at 8:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
It was about (among other things) Boris using the referendum as a proxy vote of no confidence in Cameron so that he could become Prime Minister.
posted by kersplunk at 8:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
As a European who's lived in the UK for nearly a decade, this uncertainty is so so so stressful.
posted by toerinishuman at 8:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by toerinishuman at 8:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Calling everyone who voted to 'Leave' a racist seems just another way for progressives to dismiss the views of millions and millions of people - many of whom I am sure did not vote one way or the other solely out of hate.
posted by rosswald at 8:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by rosswald at 8:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
Can anyone point to prominent leftists or progressive saying things like, it was 100% about racism or that everyone who voted to Leave is a racist?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:53 AM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:53 AM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
but what the fuck was this all about
David Cameron trying to shut up the right wing of his party.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:53 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
David Cameron trying to shut up the right wing of his party.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:53 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Linked off The Hamptons isn't a defensible position video is Mark Blyth's Google talk on Austerity. I don't think for a second that the idiots daubing racist slogans on Polish shops were au fait with this possible argument for Leave but I know that if Farage and his racist goblins weren't on the Leave side it would certainly have been very persuasive for an accelerationist position.
posted by fullerine at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's quite enough crazy shit happening in the upper levels of government/industry/the EU to talk about, without re-hashing the racist/not-racist debate for another 3,000 comments.
Can we not?
posted by Happy Dave at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [36 favorites]
Can we not?
posted by Happy Dave at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [36 favorites]
A++ would title post “the full english brexit” again.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [87 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [87 favorites]
Claiming that racism = hate seems just another way to pretend that racism is something that only happens to bad people, rather than something that everyone has to guard against.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 8:55 AM on June 27, 2016 [28 favorites]
The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.
YOUR HEAD OF STATE IS A HEREDITARY MONARCH. YOU HAVE A HOUSE OF LORDS.
ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOU HAVE A MONARCH AND A HOUSE OF LORDS.
posted by mhoye at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [221 favorites]
YOUR HEAD OF STATE IS A HEREDITARY MONARCH. YOU HAVE A HOUSE OF LORDS.
ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOU HAVE A MONARCH AND A HOUSE OF LORDS.
posted by mhoye at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [221 favorites]
Crucially, they observed that – in strong contrast to the Scottish ‘Yes’ movement – Brexit was not fuelled by hope for a different future. On the contrary, many Leavers believed that withdrawing from the EU wouldn’t really change things one way or the other, but they still wanted to do it. I’ve long suspected that, on some unconscious level, things could be even stranger than this: the self-harm inflicted by Brexit could potentially be part of its appeal.
This reminds me of the bleak diagnosis that Mark Ames (The eXile) offered up a decade ago w/r/t right-wing populism here in the U.S.:
Rich, beautiful, coastal types are liberal precisely because their lives are so wonderful. They want to preserve their lives exactly as they are. If I were a rich movie star, I’d vote for peace and poverty relief. War and domestic insurrection are the greatest threats to their already-perfect lives–why mess with it? This rational fear of the peasantry is frequently misinterpreted as rich guilt, but that’s not the case. They just want to pay off all the have-nots to keep them from storming their manors and impaling them on stakes.
Republican elites don’t set off the spite glands in the same way, and it’s not only because of a sinister right-wing propaganda machine. Take a look at a photo of the late billionaire Sam Walton, a dessicated Calvinist in a baseball cap and business suit, and you’ll see why. If Republican billionaires enjoy their wealth, they sure as hell hide it well. As far as one can tell, Republican billionaires genuinely like working 18-hour days in offices, and attending dreary charity dinners. More importantly, it’s hard for us to imagine that these stuffy gray-haired plutocrats have interesting sex lives—nothing inspires murderous envy more than someone else’s great sex life, which is why a celebrity is so much more viscerally hateful than the richest, meanest plutocrat. These right-wing billionaires’ idea of having fun is a day on the golf green (a game as slow and frustrating as a day in the office) or attending conferences with other sleazy, cheerless Calvinist billionaires. If that’s what all their wealth got them, let ’em have it–so says the spite bloc. This explains why the Republican elite–the only true and all-powerful elite in America today–is not considered an “elitist” class in the spleens of the white male have-nots. Elitism as defined today is a synonym for “happy,” not “rich” or “powerful.” Happiness is the scarcest resource of all, not money. And the happy supply has been cornered by the beautiful, famous and wealthy coastal elite, the ones who never age, and who are just so damned concerned for the have-nots’ well-being. In that sense, you can see how the Republicans were able to successfully manipulate the meaning of “elitism” to suit their needs. They weren’t just selling dogshit to the credulous masses; they were selling pancreatic balm to the needy.
At the other end of the economic spectrum, non-millionaires who vote Republican know all-too-well that the country is not theirs. They are mere wage-slave fodder, so their only hope is to vote for someone who makes the very happiest people’s lives a little less happy. If I’m an obese 40-something white male living in Ohio or Nevada, locked into a permanent struggle with foreclosure, child support payments and diabetes, then I’m going to vote for the guy who delivers a big greasy portion of misery to the Sarandon-Robbins dining room table, then brags about it on FoxNews. Even if it means hurting myself in the process.
posted by non canadian guy at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [77 favorites]
This reminds me of the bleak diagnosis that Mark Ames (The eXile) offered up a decade ago w/r/t right-wing populism here in the U.S.:
Rich, beautiful, coastal types are liberal precisely because their lives are so wonderful. They want to preserve their lives exactly as they are. If I were a rich movie star, I’d vote for peace and poverty relief. War and domestic insurrection are the greatest threats to their already-perfect lives–why mess with it? This rational fear of the peasantry is frequently misinterpreted as rich guilt, but that’s not the case. They just want to pay off all the have-nots to keep them from storming their manors and impaling them on stakes.
Republican elites don’t set off the spite glands in the same way, and it’s not only because of a sinister right-wing propaganda machine. Take a look at a photo of the late billionaire Sam Walton, a dessicated Calvinist in a baseball cap and business suit, and you’ll see why. If Republican billionaires enjoy their wealth, they sure as hell hide it well. As far as one can tell, Republican billionaires genuinely like working 18-hour days in offices, and attending dreary charity dinners. More importantly, it’s hard for us to imagine that these stuffy gray-haired plutocrats have interesting sex lives—nothing inspires murderous envy more than someone else’s great sex life, which is why a celebrity is so much more viscerally hateful than the richest, meanest plutocrat. These right-wing billionaires’ idea of having fun is a day on the golf green (a game as slow and frustrating as a day in the office) or attending conferences with other sleazy, cheerless Calvinist billionaires. If that’s what all their wealth got them, let ’em have it–so says the spite bloc. This explains why the Republican elite–the only true and all-powerful elite in America today–is not considered an “elitist” class in the spleens of the white male have-nots. Elitism as defined today is a synonym for “happy,” not “rich” or “powerful.” Happiness is the scarcest resource of all, not money. And the happy supply has been cornered by the beautiful, famous and wealthy coastal elite, the ones who never age, and who are just so damned concerned for the have-nots’ well-being. In that sense, you can see how the Republicans were able to successfully manipulate the meaning of “elitism” to suit their needs. They weren’t just selling dogshit to the credulous masses; they were selling pancreatic balm to the needy.
At the other end of the economic spectrum, non-millionaires who vote Republican know all-too-well that the country is not theirs. They are mere wage-slave fodder, so their only hope is to vote for someone who makes the very happiest people’s lives a little less happy. If I’m an obese 40-something white male living in Ohio or Nevada, locked into a permanent struggle with foreclosure, child support payments and diabetes, then I’m going to vote for the guy who delivers a big greasy portion of misery to the Sarandon-Robbins dining room table, then brags about it on FoxNews. Even if it means hurting myself in the process.
posted by non canadian guy at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [77 favorites]
Brexit loophole? MPs must still vote in order for Britain to leave the EU, top lawyers say
I think I heard on NPR this morning that Scotland, which voted solidly to Remain, may try to throw a spanner in the works by refusing parliamentary consent.
posted by Gelatin at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think I heard on NPR this morning that Scotland, which voted solidly to Remain, may try to throw a spanner in the works by refusing parliamentary consent.
posted by Gelatin at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can anyone point to prominent leftists or progressive saying things like, it was 100% about racism or that everyone who voted to Leave is a racist?
Well, my entire Tumblr/Twitter feed is saying so, but they're mostly not (politically) prominent. And just to be clear, I disagree with that sentiment.
posted by aperturescientist at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016
Well, my entire Tumblr/Twitter feed is saying so, but they're mostly not (politically) prominent. And just to be clear, I disagree with that sentiment.
posted by aperturescientist at 8:58 AM on June 27, 2016
Brexit: Gibraltar in talks with Scotland to stay in EU
How did I not think of this before: Denmark is in the EU but the Faroes and Greenland aren't. All that needs to happen is England and Wales withdraw form the EU, while the UK as a whole stays in. You just have customs and tarrifs at ports and you also need to police the land border, so you make a 21st century version of Hadrian's wall, possibly out of ice, at the England/Scotland border. Simple!
posted by kersplunk at 9:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
How did I not think of this before: Denmark is in the EU but the Faroes and Greenland aren't. All that needs to happen is England and Wales withdraw form the EU, while the UK as a whole stays in. You just have customs and tarrifs at ports and you also need to police the land border, so you make a 21st century version of Hadrian's wall, possibly out of ice, at the England/Scotland border. Simple!
posted by kersplunk at 9:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know it´s normally frowned upon but I will crosspost here from the end of the last mega thread
Geoffrey Robertson QC
How to stop Brexit: get your MP to vote it down.
This is silly. I'm not in favour of referendums and I think this was an poor decision (although I do sympathise with some of the pro-leave arguments regarding sovereignty) but at this point the die is cast. Having asked the public, MPs cannot ignore the answer.
The only thing that could possibly make this acceptable if if there is a snap election, convincingly won by a party explicitly campaigning on the basis that the UK will not leave the EU. Even then it would not be ideal. Simply ignoring the will of the public, however uninformed is politically impossible.
posted by atrazine at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Geoffrey Robertson QC
How to stop Brexit: get your MP to vote it down.
This is silly. I'm not in favour of referendums and I think this was an poor decision (although I do sympathise with some of the pro-leave arguments regarding sovereignty) but at this point the die is cast. Having asked the public, MPs cannot ignore the answer.
The only thing that could possibly make this acceptable if if there is a snap election, convincingly won by a party explicitly campaigning on the basis that the UK will not leave the EU. Even then it would not be ideal. Simply ignoring the will of the public, however uninformed is politically impossible.
posted by atrazine at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.
Such as Nigel Farage, a European legislator since 1999? I wonder how many Leave voters voted in MEP elections?
posted by dhens at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Such as Nigel Farage, a European legislator since 1999? I wonder how many Leave voters voted in MEP elections?
posted by dhens at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Parliament's livestream is a circus featuring the masterful contortionist, David Cameron. Highly amusing.
posted by Talez at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Talez at 9:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
So the Full English Brexit does come with a plate of beans.
(I'll see myself out.)
posted by SansPoint at 9:04 AM on June 27, 2016 [101 favorites]
(I'll see myself out.)
posted by SansPoint at 9:04 AM on June 27, 2016 [101 favorites]
The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.
Laws made by the elected European Parliament?
posted by kersplunk at 9:05 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Laws made by the elected European Parliament?
posted by kersplunk at 9:05 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Most of these articles confirm the idea that the Leavers were completely unprepared for a win. It's like the dog that chases cars but has no idea what to do upon actually catching one.
posted by chavenet at 9:06 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 9:06 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016
The leavers wanted their laws made in London by elected representatives, not in Brussels by unaccountable bureaucrats.
>Laws made by the elected European Parliament?
Well I guess it makes sense when you realise most UK MEPs were UKIP and thus did fuck all at the European parliament except submit expenses claims.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
>Laws made by the elected European Parliament?
Well I guess it makes sense when you realise most UK MEPs were UKIP and thus did fuck all at the European parliament except submit expenses claims.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
I just saw this Twitter thread from an Irish person with a worry about Brexit that doesn't seem to have gotten much attention: it may cause new strife between Northern and Southern Ireland.
If you're not used to Twitter's terrible threading, just read Shocko's numbered posts and click the "show more" link whenever you see it.
posted by skymt at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you're not used to Twitter's terrible threading, just read Shocko's numbered posts and click the "show more" link whenever you see it.
posted by skymt at 9:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:09 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:09 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
There was the Middle Ages, although England owned chunks of France too, though that dwindled to just Calais (Bloody Mary lost it). I think at this point the French might be happy for us to have Calais.
posted by Grangousier at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
None of the Leave people seem to want to touch on the fact that making the EU more federal is a viable route to making it more accountable. Elected Commission members, fiscal union as well as monetary union.
posted by chimaera at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chimaera at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
Yes, but a more inclusive name might be an idea this time round
posted by kersplunk at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, but a more inclusive name might be an idea this time round
posted by kersplunk at 9:10 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:08 PM on June 27
Yeah, it was called "England." Wales was made a part of England for hundreds of years, unlike Scotland which retained an independent legal identity until the formation of Great Britain.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 12:08 PM on June 27
Yeah, it was called "England." Wales was made a part of England for hundreds of years, unlike Scotland which retained an independent legal identity until the formation of Great Britain.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is silly. I'm not in favour of referendums and I think this was an poor decision (although I do sympathise with some of the pro-leave arguments regarding sovereignty) but at this point the die is cast.
We past Silly several signposts ago on this bumpy road. Since the referendum is not legally binding, but merely advisory, Parliament is under no obligation to treat it as a formal vote, especially not if the outcome is as catastrophic as it's shaping up to be. A vote against will almost certainly trigger a collapse of the present government and a general election, plus years of political ugliness as a result (to put it mildly). That's looking like a small price to pay.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
We past Silly several signposts ago on this bumpy road. Since the referendum is not legally binding, but merely advisory, Parliament is under no obligation to treat it as a formal vote, especially not if the outcome is as catastrophic as it's shaping up to be. A vote against will almost certainly trigger a collapse of the present government and a general election, plus years of political ugliness as a result (to put it mildly). That's looking like a small price to pay.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Alternatively, didn't "Briton" used to only refer to the Celts? So let's have a New Briton and an Olde Britain.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:13 AM on June 27, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 9:13 AM on June 27, 2016
The SNP is absolutely hammering Cameron on Scotland wanting to stay in.
posted by Talez at 9:14 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Talez at 9:14 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
Yes, but a more inclusive name might be an idea this time round
Engales? Wangland?
...Wangland.
posted by a car full of lions at 9:16 AM on June 27, 2016 [89 favorites]
Yes, but a more inclusive name might be an idea this time round
Engales? Wangland?
...Wangland.
posted by a car full of lions at 9:16 AM on June 27, 2016 [89 favorites]
Given a Leave vote must be either racist or massively ignorant of actual economic and political facts, I'm not sure what's particularly ungenerous about assuming the former rather than the latter.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
We past Silly several signposts ago on this bumpy road. Since the referendum is not legally binding, but merely advisory, Parliament is under no obligation to treat it as a formal vote, especially not if the outcome is as catastrophic as it's shaping up to be.
Yeah, but 52% of referendum voters voted in favour of Leave. Parliament can ignore them, but they aren't going to go away — precisely why Cameron decided to hold this referendum in the first place.
Parliament can ignore or somehow "vote down" the result, but that just creates a massive opportunity for UKIP in the next election.
This political nightmare for the UK could have been avoided by raising the bar of "success" for the referendum (e.g., two-thirds majority needed to win etc).
posted by My Dad at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but 52% of referendum voters voted in favour of Leave. Parliament can ignore them, but they aren't going to go away — precisely why Cameron decided to hold this referendum in the first place.
Parliament can ignore or somehow "vote down" the result, but that just creates a massive opportunity for UKIP in the next election.
This political nightmare for the UK could have been avoided by raising the bar of "success" for the referendum (e.g., two-thirds majority needed to win etc).
posted by My Dad at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe we should just keep the name United Kingdom, but throw some scare quotes in there.
When talking about the "United" Kingdom or the "U"K you have to do airquotes at the appropriate points.
Also we can put that line about having Rebellious Scots to crush back in the anthem.
(I say we, like I'm not getting my Scottish passport just as soon as they're independent)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 9:17 AM on June 27, 2016
I found this to be a brilliant analysis of that political fun and ours:
Brexit is only the latest proof of the insularity and failure of western establishment institutions
And apologies if it's already somewhere up in the amazing list that started the thread...
posted by emmet at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Brexit is only the latest proof of the insularity and failure of western establishment institutions
And apologies if it's already somewhere up in the amazing list that started the thread...
posted by emmet at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Brussels rejects Boris Johnson 'pipe dream' over single market access
posted by My Dad at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by My Dad at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The european parliament has no legislative initiative, right?
posted by asra at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016
posted by asra at 9:18 AM on June 27, 2016
Whilst I personally think ignoring the result of the vote would be a disastrous precedent to set; if your fear is a war with the far-right then that is already coming. They are as emboldened as anyone has seen since the 70s and this will have to be fought whether we Brexit or not.
posted by fullerine at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
interfluidity: Attributions of causality - "Like a lot of people, I think, I’m a bit dazed by the fact that apparently, really, the British public has voted to leave the EU. I’d prefer we lived in a world that was coming together rather than fraying apart. Other than that I’ll refrain from comment and just wish everybody the best."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2016
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:19 AM on June 27, 2016
The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).
I've seen Poundland suggested.
posted by Artw at 9:20 AM on June 27, 2016 [41 favorites]
I've seen Poundland suggested.
posted by Artw at 9:20 AM on June 27, 2016 [41 favorites]
The responses and reactions after having gotten exactly what was claimed to be wanted have been ridiculous and surreal. Just pulling out the crisps and popcorn for the past couple of days watching it all play out.
Thanks for hte post, o mantot
posted by infini at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2016
Thanks for hte post, o mantot
posted by infini at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2016
EVERYONE that I know who voted leave, and have shared their thinking, (so obvious bias's abound in my sample) had one of these two reasons in their list:
Everyone is the hero is their own story. No one, anywhere, ever, admits that they're voting for something based largely on their own blind hatred of minorities. Every so often, though, we see the mask pulled off. In the UK, it's Brexit winning despite the fact that its backers apparently didn't even want it. In the US, it's Trump obliterating decades of conservative rhetoric insisting that it's all about the economy, and the systemic racism is just an unpleasant but necessary side effect. We'll see what happens in France over the next few months, but I'm sure it will be nicely dressed as economic concerns.
posted by Mayor West at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2016 [55 favorites]
Everyone is the hero is their own story. No one, anywhere, ever, admits that they're voting for something based largely on their own blind hatred of minorities. Every so often, though, we see the mask pulled off. In the UK, it's Brexit winning despite the fact that its backers apparently didn't even want it. In the US, it's Trump obliterating decades of conservative rhetoric insisting that it's all about the economy, and the systemic racism is just an unpleasant but necessary side effect. We'll see what happens in France over the next few months, but I'm sure it will be nicely dressed as economic concerns.
posted by Mayor West at 9:21 AM on June 27, 2016 [55 favorites]
Could UK be forced into quick EU exit?
TL,DR: Maybe, and probably if the remaining members have anything to say about it.
Article 50 says the remaining members must be 'notified' of an intention to leave, but makes no mention of how that notification is to occur. It has been assumed that it would be by a formal notice letter, however, simply discussing the Brexit vote with other members may be enough notification in their view.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2016
TL,DR: Maybe, and probably if the remaining members have anything to say about it.
Article 50 says the remaining members must be 'notified' of an intention to leave, but makes no mention of how that notification is to occur. It has been assumed that it would be by a formal notice letter, however, simply discussing the Brexit vote with other members may be enough notification in their view.
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2016
Was there ever a historical polity that consisted of only England and Wales? Maybe we can bring that back.
Sort of, due to a bloodthirsty conquest by Edward I of England. Who, incidentally, also took part in a bloody conquest of Scotland after that. Bloodthirsty guy. Incidentally, Edward I's conquest of Scotland only happened because he was initially invited to come and referee a complicated succession dispute, when nobody could agree on who the next Scottish monarch would be, a planned alliance with Norway didn't work out, and the power vacuum meant that somebody had to come and run the country in the meantime.
Not that I'm not suggesting Nicola Sturgeon gets together an army and marches down to London, obviously. Although with this week's news, would it even make the top headlines if she did?
posted by Catseye at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sort of, due to a bloodthirsty conquest by Edward I of England. Who, incidentally, also took part in a bloody conquest of Scotland after that. Bloodthirsty guy. Incidentally, Edward I's conquest of Scotland only happened because he was initially invited to come and referee a complicated succession dispute, when nobody could agree on who the next Scottish monarch would be, a planned alliance with Norway didn't work out, and the power vacuum meant that somebody had to come and run the country in the meantime.
Not that I'm not suggesting Nicola Sturgeon gets together an army and marches down to London, obviously. Although with this week's news, would it even make the top headlines if she did?
posted by Catseye at 9:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
massively ignorant of actual economic and political facts
They were seriously lied to by the media and the politicians.
posted by infini at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
They were seriously lied to by the media and the politicians.
posted by infini at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
would it even make the top headlines if she did?Well the BBC would run with Corbyn falling off his bike, but the rest of the media would probably cover it.
posted by fullerine at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Maybe we could just give strange women lying in ponds distributing swords another try."
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
Article 50 says the remaining members must be 'notified' of an intention to leave, but makes no mention of how that notification is to occur.
I should think the referendum itself would constitute "notification." I'm pretty sure they've all heard by now. It was all over the papers for a couple days there.
posted by Naberius at 9:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I should think the referendum itself would constitute "notification." I'm pretty sure they've all heard by now. It was all over the papers for a couple days there.
posted by Naberius at 9:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
The impact of Brexit on the EU
Academia aside, this conversation has everyone concerned. Was chatting with the guards at the recent midsummer concert and they were worried EU would fall apart as everyone thought they could leave.
posted by infini at 9:26 AM on June 27, 2016
Academia aside, this conversation has everyone concerned. Was chatting with the guards at the recent midsummer concert and they were worried EU would fall apart as everyone thought they could leave.
posted by infini at 9:26 AM on June 27, 2016
I didn't think I could get any more depressed about it after Friday, but the way that so many parties are using the whole shoddy outcome as a way of trying to drag Corbyn out of his role as opposition leader is heartbreaking. He is genuinely the only shred of hope I have left for the future of my home country and I will go to every rally for him that I need to in order to keep him going.
posted by greenish at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by greenish at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
This political nightmare for the UK could have been avoided by raising the bar of "success" for the referendum (e.g., two-thirds majority needed to win etc).
During the (successful) referendum on Montenegrin independence in 2006, the threshold was 55% of at least 50% eligible turnout.
posted by dhens at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
During the (successful) referendum on Montenegrin independence in 2006, the threshold was 55% of at least 50% eligible turnout.
posted by dhens at 9:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
None of the Leave people seem to want to touch on the fact that making the EU more federal is a viable route to making it more accountable.
Many won't have a proper understanding of federalism. If they think about it at all, they would probably see it as something that Americans, Australians and Germans do, i.e. not British and therefore unworkable. As opposed to the marvelous Westminster machine we see in all its glory today. (See also: written vs unwritten constitutions.)
Yeah, but 52% of referendum voters voted in favour of Leave. Parliament can ignore them, but they aren't going to go away
There have been reports that as many as a million Leave voters were expressing buyer's remorse within a day or two of the result. Give it a few weeks and months of chaos and it could be many more. Even a million votes going the other way would have had the result as 52-48 Remain. I'm sure these sorts of calculations are being considered by MPs desperate to backtrack.
posted by rory at 9:29 AM on June 27, 2016
Many won't have a proper understanding of federalism. If they think about it at all, they would probably see it as something that Americans, Australians and Germans do, i.e. not British and therefore unworkable. As opposed to the marvelous Westminster machine we see in all its glory today. (See also: written vs unwritten constitutions.)
Yeah, but 52% of referendum voters voted in favour of Leave. Parliament can ignore them, but they aren't going to go away
There have been reports that as many as a million Leave voters were expressing buyer's remorse within a day or two of the result. Give it a few weeks and months of chaos and it could be many more. Even a million votes going the other way would have had the result as 52-48 Remain. I'm sure these sorts of calculations are being considered by MPs desperate to backtrack.
posted by rory at 9:29 AM on June 27, 2016
The pound is currently sitting at a 30-year low
posted by infini at 9:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 9:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
→ simply discussing the Brexit vote with other members may be enough notification in their view
Jack of Kent (main site down, David Green's FB linked) noted that an EU spokesman said" "The notification of Article 50 is a formal act and has to be done by the British government to the European Council …"
Formal notice at this level would have to be written by someone authorized in the UK government, and acknowledged as received by the EU. "I heard you said ..." isn't enough.
posted by scruss at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Jack of Kent (main site down, David Green's FB linked) noted that an EU spokesman said" "The notification of Article 50 is a formal act and has to be done by the British government to the European Council …"
Formal notice at this level would have to be written by someone authorized in the UK government, and acknowledged as received by the EU. "I heard you said ..." isn't enough.
posted by scruss at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
The truly awful thing about Brexit is that it's the merest beginning.
The white majority's response to a relatively small number of migrants of color has torn Britain apart, yet when and if Global Warming really kicks in, that trickle will swell to a vast and overwhelming cataract because entire countries nearer the Equator are going to become uninhabitable or much less habitable, and millions upon millions of people living there will either die in place, in transit, or they will end up in currently mainly white countries of the higher latitudes -- countries which will have an indisputable moral obligation to let them in because those countries are primarily (and knowingly) responsible for Global Warming.
posted by jamjam at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [55 favorites]
The white majority's response to a relatively small number of migrants of color has torn Britain apart, yet when and if Global Warming really kicks in, that trickle will swell to a vast and overwhelming cataract because entire countries nearer the Equator are going to become uninhabitable or much less habitable, and millions upon millions of people living there will either die in place, in transit, or they will end up in currently mainly white countries of the higher latitudes -- countries which will have an indisputable moral obligation to let them in because those countries are primarily (and knowingly) responsible for Global Warming.
posted by jamjam at 9:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [55 favorites]
All that needs to happen is for the EU (Hollande and Merkel, Basically) to sit on their hands and completely refuse any pre-negotiation with the UK until article 50 is formally invoked. The uncertainty and anxiety that such a position will engender in the financial industry (the almighty City) will make relocation to the Eurozone pretty much the only option for the largest players. That in turn will mean that the stricter rules under which the Continental banks are governed will also be applied to newcomers.
Wikipedia: The financial services industry of the United Kingdom contributed a gross value of £86,145 million to the UK economy in 2004.[1] The industry employed around 1.2 million people in the third quarter of 2012 (around 4% of the British workforce).
The estimated amount of total taxes paid by the Financial Services Sector in the year to 31 March 2012 is £63bn, 11.6% of the total UK government tax receipts.
So, basically, a fair major portion of that 86 Billion is going away anyways, as are maybe 2-3% of Britain's jobs. And probably 10% of the UK's future tax revenue will now be in Paris' or Frankfurt's pocket instead.
And this is all likely to happen without the need for Article 50 being invoked.
posted by Chrischris at 9:39 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Wikipedia: The financial services industry of the United Kingdom contributed a gross value of £86,145 million to the UK economy in 2004.[1] The industry employed around 1.2 million people in the third quarter of 2012 (around 4% of the British workforce).
The estimated amount of total taxes paid by the Financial Services Sector in the year to 31 March 2012 is £63bn, 11.6% of the total UK government tax receipts.
So, basically, a fair major portion of that 86 Billion is going away anyways, as are maybe 2-3% of Britain's jobs. And probably 10% of the UK's future tax revenue will now be in Paris' or Frankfurt's pocket instead.
And this is all likely to happen without the need for Article 50 being invoked.
posted by Chrischris at 9:39 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Has Boris been playing cricket all weekend? He's missing from Parliament
posted by infini at 9:41 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 9:41 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The truly awful thing about Brexit is that it's the merest beginning.
The white majority's response to a relatively small number of migrants of color has torn Britain apart, yet when and if Global Warming really kicks in, that trickle will swell to a vast and overwhelming cataract because entire countries nearer the Equator are going to become uninhabitable or much less habitable, and millions upon millions of people living there will either die in place, in transit, or they will end up in currently mainly white countries of the higher latitudes -- countries which will have an indisputable moral obligation to let them in because those countries are primarily (and knowingly) responsible for Global Warming.
Quite.
Given that the most visible ethnic prejudice emerging from the UK has been against the Polish, I find this whistled comment egregious.
posted by infini at 9:42 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
John Oliver is in fine comic and satiric form on the Brexit fallout in last night's Last Week Tonight. Sorry, that's a bit of an understatement, he's on fire. (e.g. addressing his American audience: “You might think, ‘Well that is not going to happen to us in America. We’re not going to listen to some ridiculously haired buffoon, peddling lies and nativism in the hopes of riding a protest vote into power.’ Well let Britain tell you, it can happen, and when it does, there are no fucking do-overs.”)
Besides the obvious dire current situation, he might still be a bit cheesed off that his previous week's sketch going into vote - which hilariously demolished the Leave campaign's lies - was delayed from being broadcast in the UK by Sky-TV.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Besides the obvious dire current situation, he might still be a bit cheesed off that his previous week's sketch going into vote - which hilariously demolished the Leave campaign's lies - was delayed from being broadcast in the UK by Sky-TV.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
if your fear is a war with the far-right then that is already coming.
Just ask the family of Jo Cox about that war. Funny how the people defending Brexit are at pains to pretend she never existed, while railing about unaccountable bureaucrats.
That's why I think the Scottish MPs should be careful when moving either to veto the process or leave the UK. The "Make England Great Again" people have seen that they can engage in assassination with no repercussions; there's little to discourage them from doing it again.
posted by happyroach at 9:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Just ask the family of Jo Cox about that war. Funny how the people defending Brexit are at pains to pretend she never existed, while railing about unaccountable bureaucrats.
That's why I think the Scottish MPs should be careful when moving either to veto the process or leave the UK. The "Make England Great Again" people have seen that they can engage in assassination with no repercussions; there's little to discourage them from doing it again.
posted by happyroach at 9:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Politics of Backlash [NYT]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:49 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
All that needs to happen is for the EU (Hollande and Merkel, Basically) to sit on their hands and completely refuse any pre-negotiation with the UK until article 50 is formally invoked. The uncertainty and anxiety that such a position will engender in the financial industry (the almighty City) will make relocation to the Eurozone pretty much the only option for the largest players.
Its already happening.
FTSE 100 surrenders £85bn in two days
The EU Plans to Move Its Bank Regulator out of London After Brexit Vote
posted by infini at 9:51 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Its already happening.
FTSE 100 surrenders £85bn in two days
The EU Plans to Move Its Bank Regulator out of London After Brexit Vote
posted by infini at 9:51 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Has Boris been playing cricket all weekend? He's missing from Parliament
Everything about this dude's behavior since the vote seems like a guy whose wife just called to say she met his mistress and they had a lovely tea, the kids found out he spent their college savings on a bender in Atlantic City, and a couple of guys whose middle names are "The" keep looking for him so they can have a discussion about his debts and/or kneecaps.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [78 favorites]
Everything about this dude's behavior since the vote seems like a guy whose wife just called to say she met his mistress and they had a lovely tea, the kids found out he spent their college savings on a bender in Atlantic City, and a couple of guys whose middle names are "The" keep looking for him so they can have a discussion about his debts and/or kneecaps.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [78 favorites]
YOUR HEAD OF STATE IS A HEREDITARY MONARCH. YOU HAVE A HOUSE OF LORDS.
There's a bit more to it than that.
The lack of democracy and particularly accountability within the EU is not an accidental defect, it is a structural feature. Britain's parliament is not perfect, but we did recently experience enough national debate around it to force a reversal of the recent massive cuts that were due to be made to disabled persons' benefits. One day there was simply no alternative, the sums had been done, the cuts had to be made. Then they didn't. You never get this kind of thing happening with the EU's decision making over for example the recent refugee situation (which caused Medicin Sans Frontieres to refuse any further money from the EU).
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
There's a bit more to it than that.
The lack of democracy and particularly accountability within the EU is not an accidental defect, it is a structural feature. Britain's parliament is not perfect, but we did recently experience enough national debate around it to force a reversal of the recent massive cuts that were due to be made to disabled persons' benefits. One day there was simply no alternative, the sums had been done, the cuts had to be made. Then they didn't. You never get this kind of thing happening with the EU's decision making over for example the recent refugee situation (which caused Medicin Sans Frontieres to refuse any further money from the EU).
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've seen Poundland suggested.
(Note to non-UK readers: "Poundland" is a nationwide chain of discount variety stores, like the 99-cent shop or hyaku en shoppu.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:57 AM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
(Note to non-UK readers: "Poundland" is a nationwide chain of discount variety stores, like the 99-cent shop or hyaku en shoppu.)
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:57 AM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
There is absolutely no way the City will allow for a long period of uncertainty.
The City absolutely positively has to retain access to the EU markets. It's an absolute precondition to their continued dominance in world Finance. Get cut of the EU markets and now the City absolutely fucked.
This is why HSBC is already making threats to move to the continent. It is a requirement for their business model staying out of the EU markets would give BNP Paribas and Deutschebank and other continental banks the ability to eat their business for lunch.
Since the economy of the UK is extremely dependent on the economic activity of the City and the City is dependent on access to the EU there is absolutely no leverage. No amount of national pride will keep the UK banks from jumping ship if the UK goes protectionist.
So if we accept that access to the single market is mandatory for any future state then we have to accept that free movement is a precondition. There is absolutely no indication that the EU is willing to give the UK EFTA without a reciprocal treaty of some sort. Switzerland has it's own bilateral deals but the most likely alternative is EEA and guess what the EEA mandates? Yep free movement.
So all the racists who want to send all the Poles back to Eastern Europe aren't going to be able to get their deportation desires met. They are going to be mad as fuck at the demagogues that lied to them. You can already see evidence of this with some leave advocates pointing to Boris's back pedaling as evidence that he'll sell them down the river in a heartbeat which of course is completely accurate.
As for the euroskeptics on the left? I don't know what to tell you. I understand that you guys dislike neoliberal bureaucrats in Brussels calling the shots but it seems like you've traded that for even sketchier Tory Bureaucrats in Westminster who are dying to push through all sorts of crap that would be impossible under the EU.
I guess that's good for sovereignity I guess and I respect the desire to die free rather than live in bondage but I think that viewpoint is typically hidden behind a lot of pretty obfuscations.
posted by vuron at 9:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [49 favorites]
The City absolutely positively has to retain access to the EU markets. It's an absolute precondition to their continued dominance in world Finance. Get cut of the EU markets and now the City absolutely fucked.
This is why HSBC is already making threats to move to the continent. It is a requirement for their business model staying out of the EU markets would give BNP Paribas and Deutschebank and other continental banks the ability to eat their business for lunch.
Since the economy of the UK is extremely dependent on the economic activity of the City and the City is dependent on access to the EU there is absolutely no leverage. No amount of national pride will keep the UK banks from jumping ship if the UK goes protectionist.
So if we accept that access to the single market is mandatory for any future state then we have to accept that free movement is a precondition. There is absolutely no indication that the EU is willing to give the UK EFTA without a reciprocal treaty of some sort. Switzerland has it's own bilateral deals but the most likely alternative is EEA and guess what the EEA mandates? Yep free movement.
So all the racists who want to send all the Poles back to Eastern Europe aren't going to be able to get their deportation desires met. They are going to be mad as fuck at the demagogues that lied to them. You can already see evidence of this with some leave advocates pointing to Boris's back pedaling as evidence that he'll sell them down the river in a heartbeat which of course is completely accurate.
As for the euroskeptics on the left? I don't know what to tell you. I understand that you guys dislike neoliberal bureaucrats in Brussels calling the shots but it seems like you've traded that for even sketchier Tory Bureaucrats in Westminster who are dying to push through all sorts of crap that would be impossible under the EU.
I guess that's good for sovereignity I guess and I respect the desire to die free rather than live in bondage but I think that viewpoint is typically hidden behind a lot of pretty obfuscations.
posted by vuron at 9:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [49 favorites]
Maybe all the #Brexit voters who voted to get out from under unaccountable bloodless neoliberal bureaucrats in Brussels without realizing that it was the unaccountable bloodless neoliberal bureaucrats in Whitehall who fucked them over are all just The Lion In Winter fans.
"When the fall is all there is, it matters. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
"When the fall is all there is, it matters. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
The correct thing to do would be for Parliament to hold a debate on the results and pass a resolution saying that they have considered the advice of the people, but decided that the narrowness of the results require that the status quo be maintained.
posted by humanfont at 10:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 10:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
How much of that is structural and how much of that is cultural though? If that's a meaningful distinction. I mean, I'm kind of an uninformed American here, but it sounds like people do vote for these MEPs. So what makes the European so drastically different from the British parliament that it is undemocratic? Do they possess fewer powers? Or is there just not enough communication and shared citizen involvement between European countries for grassroots opposition to build against things that are more popular among the economic elite than the populace at large? Or is it a case where people only see the laws have downsides for them, and don't really notice the laws that have upsides for them and downsides for other people?
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Apparently the sure-fire way to make Prime Minister's Question Time less angry and adversarial is to have the Prime Minister promise to resign
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Brief notes on how the EU is structured undemocratically (so that technocratic decisions can be made more easily).
While there are plenty of democratically elected members in the European Union (ie. those listed above), none of the elected members have law making power. That law making power rests with the European Commission.
The European Commission fulfills what is known as an ‘Executive Role’. They propose and write the laws, implement decisions and laws, and run the European institutions. The commission employs roughly 30,000 people. No member of the European Commission is elected.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:05 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
While there are plenty of democratically elected members in the European Union (ie. those listed above), none of the elected members have law making power. That law making power rests with the European Commission.
The European Commission fulfills what is known as an ‘Executive Role’. They propose and write the laws, implement decisions and laws, and run the European institutions. The commission employs roughly 30,000 people. No member of the European Commission is elected.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:05 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
The only silver lining I can see about Brexit and Trump is the possibility that the hard right will be discredited in the electorates of the English-speaking world for a generation. However, the cost is far too high, and that outcome is far from guaranteed.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by murphy slaw at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
It seems like Cameron's answer to anything is "that would be a decision for the next Prime Minister."
It's a bit like that time the Bishops were coming and Father Ted had to get Father Jack to memorize a couple stock phrases that apply to every possible question.
posted by zachlipton at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
It's a bit like that time the Bishops were coming and Father Ted had to get Father Jack to memorize a couple stock phrases that apply to every possible question.
posted by zachlipton at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
They did not respect the EU as a law making body. They felt it was unaccountable, detached and not representative of their interests.
Were their interests worker rights and unions, climate change, decent environmental policy, human rights? Because by leaving the EU all these things are under threat.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
Were their interests worker rights and unions, climate change, decent environmental policy, human rights? Because by leaving the EU all these things are under threat.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
Vuron, I think the City is done, regardless of what happens in the future.
The entire structure of the UK banking establishment hinged on the ability for British banks to have access to the Eurozone WHILE not being not being subject to the stricter regulations that Eurozone banks operate under. That arrangement, whatever the political outcome, is dead. When Cameron pulled the trigger on the referendum, he put a bullet right through the City as well. Even if we get to a "just kidding, heh heh heh" state of affairs and the UK somehow, improbably, stays, you can rest assured that the French and German banks will absolutely not allow the status quo to remain in place. The referendum put paid to the underlying idea that, despite demands for special treatment, the British were fundamentally committed to the EU project. With that assumption of good faith and comity now gone, there remains absolutely no reason why the Eurozone financial sector should allow the City to enjoy its privileged status.
posted by Chrischris at 10:16 AM on June 27, 2016 [35 favorites]
The entire structure of the UK banking establishment hinged on the ability for British banks to have access to the Eurozone WHILE not being not being subject to the stricter regulations that Eurozone banks operate under. That arrangement, whatever the political outcome, is dead. When Cameron pulled the trigger on the referendum, he put a bullet right through the City as well. Even if we get to a "just kidding, heh heh heh" state of affairs and the UK somehow, improbably, stays, you can rest assured that the French and German banks will absolutely not allow the status quo to remain in place. The referendum put paid to the underlying idea that, despite demands for special treatment, the British were fundamentally committed to the EU project. With that assumption of good faith and comity now gone, there remains absolutely no reason why the Eurozone financial sector should allow the City to enjoy its privileged status.
posted by Chrischris at 10:16 AM on June 27, 2016 [35 favorites]
Or is there just not enough communication and shared citizen involvement between European countries for grassroots opposition to build against things that are more popular among the economic elite than the populace at large?
“The EU must now take a long, hard look at itself and consider a fundamental change of its policies in favour of social justice. If it seeks to continue as if nothing has happened, it will disintegrate.”
posted by infini at 10:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
“The EU must now take a long, hard look at itself and consider a fundamental change of its policies in favour of social justice. If it seeks to continue as if nothing has happened, it will disintegrate.”
posted by infini at 10:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm kind of an uninformed American here, but it sounds like people do vote for these MEPs.
The European Parliament isn't in charge, in the way, for example, that the Houses of Parliament have the final say in the UK.
Basically there are 4 main European institutions. The Commission is the civil service, but are pretty powerful as these things go, can suggest new legislation, amongst other things. Its them that are seen as having too much power. The Member States do each get a commissioner, who runs a dept at the EC, but this is appointed (albeit by elected governments) not elected. This is who is being got at when people moan about the whole shebang being technocratic and undemocratic.
The Parliament is elected, it can influence legislation in various ways but doesn't get the final say.
The European court rules on any disagreement, is where countries get taken to court for not meeting policy, not all that pertinent here. Not the same as the International Court it should be noted.
The body that does have the final say is the European Council. This is pretty democratic in that each MS national leader gets a seat (or sends a minister for less important stuff), they can veto stuff either individually or in blocs (but generally for it to require a bloc veto the MS have to have agreed in some prior legislation that an individual veto no longer applies). This is pretty democratic since all the MS are democratic and each MS has to have to have voluntarily agreed to buy into the system as a whole to be there but this is generally ignored.
This has been your very quick and dirty intro to European Union political structure.
posted by biffa at 10:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [62 favorites]
The European Parliament isn't in charge, in the way, for example, that the Houses of Parliament have the final say in the UK.
Basically there are 4 main European institutions. The Commission is the civil service, but are pretty powerful as these things go, can suggest new legislation, amongst other things. Its them that are seen as having too much power. The Member States do each get a commissioner, who runs a dept at the EC, but this is appointed (albeit by elected governments) not elected. This is who is being got at when people moan about the whole shebang being technocratic and undemocratic.
The Parliament is elected, it can influence legislation in various ways but doesn't get the final say.
The European court rules on any disagreement, is where countries get taken to court for not meeting policy, not all that pertinent here. Not the same as the International Court it should be noted.
The body that does have the final say is the European Council. This is pretty democratic in that each MS national leader gets a seat (or sends a minister for less important stuff), they can veto stuff either individually or in blocs (but generally for it to require a bloc veto the MS have to have agreed in some prior legislation that an individual veto no longer applies). This is pretty democratic since all the MS are democratic and each MS has to have to have voluntarily agreed to buy into the system as a whole to be there but this is generally ignored.
This has been your very quick and dirty intro to European Union political structure.
posted by biffa at 10:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [62 favorites]
ould be a disastrous precedent to set; if your fear is a war with the far-right then that is already coming. They are as emboldened as anyone has seen since the 70s and this will have to be fought whether we Brexit or not.
I'd be more worried about losing it than having to fight it. The consequences of leaving are bad. The consequences of ignoring the will of the people are also bad. It's a case of giving the far right what they wanted and having everyone come to see that it's terrible, or denying it to them and having them come to power and potentially taking it anyway.
Same with the bankers, really. Boris' choices are protect the bankers and the economy, keep the immigrants, and have half the population lose their minds, or fuck the bankers and the economy, fuck the immigrants, and keep his supporters on side. He's a craven careerist who only got where he is today by toadying up to the far right. Oh, to be an estate agent in Frankfurt, theirs will soon be the only smiling faces on the continent.
posted by Diablevert at 10:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'd be more worried about losing it than having to fight it. The consequences of leaving are bad. The consequences of ignoring the will of the people are also bad. It's a case of giving the far right what they wanted and having everyone come to see that it's terrible, or denying it to them and having them come to power and potentially taking it anyway.
Same with the bankers, really. Boris' choices are protect the bankers and the economy, keep the immigrants, and have half the population lose their minds, or fuck the bankers and the economy, fuck the immigrants, and keep his supporters on side. He's a craven careerist who only got where he is today by toadying up to the far right. Oh, to be an estate agent in Frankfurt, theirs will soon be the only smiling faces on the continent.
posted by Diablevert at 10:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
No member of the European Commission is elected.
The President of the Commission is elected by the European Parliament, the members of which are elected. The President then goes on to advise (the elected representatives of) member states on who they wish to select as commissioners. The Commission doesn't appear out of thin air.
The problem isn't that they're unelected, it's that they're mostly elected by people who aren't British. Just like how term limits are most popular for everyone else's representatives.
posted by Etrigan at 10:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [25 favorites]
The President of the Commission is elected by the European Parliament, the members of which are elected. The President then goes on to advise (the elected representatives of) member states on who they wish to select as commissioners. The Commission doesn't appear out of thin air.
The problem isn't that they're unelected, it's that they're mostly elected by people who aren't British. Just like how term limits are most popular for everyone else's representatives.
posted by Etrigan at 10:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [25 favorites]
Josh Marshall: "This then is the big picture: a period of great transformation in which a declining but very large segment of the population feels it is losing critically important things to which it is entitled and does not want to lose and, in response, is throwing up an escalating range of tactics and obstacles to bring the change to a halt."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:20 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:20 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
You know what.
The US has a federal system, I get to vote for a Representative and a couple of Senators and a President.
I don't get to select the bureaucrats that form the vast majority of the executive branch. We simply don't get to vote on them directly. There is some indirect role for advise and consent for the Secretaries in charge of the various agencies and some of their senior deputies but the vast majority of federal bureaucrats are not decided directly by the voters.
And the reality is that's a good thing. Otherwise you get stuff like the spoils system where all of the senior positions in an agency are more or less political cronies of the ruling party. We realized that this was a bad model during the progressive era and there has been roughly 90 or so years where bureaucracies have been more or less dominated by a professional class that implement the decisions of the elected officials.
In the modern federal state these types of bureaucrats are absolutely essential as they are the only ones that have the institutional knowledge necessary to keep the system running. This is reflected in all the un-elected bureaucrats that carry out the will of the MPs in Whitehall as well.
I'm just kind of surprised that there is so much concern about faceless EU bureaucrats when they are necessary to the smooth function of virtually every modern government. Can bureaucracies subvert the will of the electorate? Yep. Can they act in selfish, self perpetuating ways? Yep. Are they an absolutely requirement for the smooth function of a government? Yep.
So the solution to the problems of the EU bureaucracy are to enact reforms on the EU bureaucracies. However the UK seems content to send the worst sorts of crooks in the form of the UKIPs to the European Parliament. These are people that openly brag that they have no intention of actually being in session.
So you wonder why the interests of the UK aren't being met. Physician heal thyself.
posted by vuron at 10:22 AM on June 27, 2016 [44 favorites]
The US has a federal system, I get to vote for a Representative and a couple of Senators and a President.
I don't get to select the bureaucrats that form the vast majority of the executive branch. We simply don't get to vote on them directly. There is some indirect role for advise and consent for the Secretaries in charge of the various agencies and some of their senior deputies but the vast majority of federal bureaucrats are not decided directly by the voters.
And the reality is that's a good thing. Otherwise you get stuff like the spoils system where all of the senior positions in an agency are more or less political cronies of the ruling party. We realized that this was a bad model during the progressive era and there has been roughly 90 or so years where bureaucracies have been more or less dominated by a professional class that implement the decisions of the elected officials.
In the modern federal state these types of bureaucrats are absolutely essential as they are the only ones that have the institutional knowledge necessary to keep the system running. This is reflected in all the un-elected bureaucrats that carry out the will of the MPs in Whitehall as well.
I'm just kind of surprised that there is so much concern about faceless EU bureaucrats when they are necessary to the smooth function of virtually every modern government. Can bureaucracies subvert the will of the electorate? Yep. Can they act in selfish, self perpetuating ways? Yep. Are they an absolutely requirement for the smooth function of a government? Yep.
So the solution to the problems of the EU bureaucracy are to enact reforms on the EU bureaucracies. However the UK seems content to send the worst sorts of crooks in the form of the UKIPs to the European Parliament. These are people that openly brag that they have no intention of actually being in session.
So you wonder why the interests of the UK aren't being met. Physician heal thyself.
posted by vuron at 10:22 AM on June 27, 2016 [44 favorites]
I was relieved to read in the latest Paul Mason - The global order is dying. But it’s an illusion to think Britain can survive without the EU that:
The impact has been immediate. Almost unnoticed amid the post-Brexit hysteria, French president François Hollande announced his intention to veto TTIP, the free-trade treaty between the EU and the US. For clarity, that means it is dead.posted by Grangousier at 10:22 AM on June 27, 2016 [30 favorites]
The Commissioners are also approved by the Parliament (though as a group, not individually). It's not a system that's immediately responsive to the will of the voters, but calling it "undemocratic" is eliding some significant elements.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
You never get this kind of thing happening with the EU's decision making over for example the recent refugee situation
Picture time!
Here's a photo of from the council meeting that made that decision. You may recognize the guy to the left. His colleagues from other EU countries were there too.
Here's a graph over how many refugees per capita the different European countries took in last year, based on decisions by local politicians.
I'm not entirely sure these two pictures support the idea that EU is bad because it's run by unelected Brusselaars, or that your local UK parliament is good.
posted by effbot at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Picture time!
Here's a photo of from the council meeting that made that decision. You may recognize the guy to the left. His colleagues from other EU countries were there too.
Here's a graph over how many refugees per capita the different European countries took in last year, based on decisions by local politicians.
I'm not entirely sure these two pictures support the idea that EU is bad because it's run by unelected Brusselaars, or that your local UK parliament is good.
posted by effbot at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
All that needs to happen is for the EU (Hollande and Merkel, Basically) to sit on their hands and completely refuse any pre-negotiation with the UK until article 50 is formally invoke
It looks like that's the plan. While the UK government has done nothing (and the two most prominent government members who backed Leave did not even bother to turn up to debate today), there is now a drafted EU motion for a resolution about the referendum result. It's not pretty.
posted by AFII at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
It looks like that's the plan. While the UK government has done nothing (and the two most prominent government members who backed Leave did not even bother to turn up to debate today), there is now a drafted EU motion for a resolution about the referendum result. It's not pretty.
posted by AFII at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The people have spoken. Nobody is sure what they are saying. Including the people who voted.
posted by Postroad at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 10:26 AM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Indeed. The people have spoken. Or, at least, they've made mouth noises. Close enough.
posted by Grangousier at 10:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 10:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
How delicious would it be if Scotland somehow succeeds in retaining EU membership and London's financial institutions pack up and move to Edinburgh?
posted by rocket88 at 10:29 AM on June 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 10:29 AM on June 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
So when is the no-confidence vote coming in the Commons? Surely there's one coming, right?
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:29 AM on June 27, 2016
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:29 AM on June 27, 2016
Is a global recession on the horizon? It sure seems like it right now.
posted by tommasz at 10:31 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tommasz at 10:31 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh man, this Regrexiter takes the cake: Former Sun editor Kelvin Mackenzie reveals he regrets voting for Brexit.
posted by rory at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by rory at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
In Britain, the End of the Establishment in which Pankaj Mishra skewers Eton for old glory and empire.
posted by infini at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by infini at 10:33 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
so I'm thinking about the pre-vote conspiracy theories about MI5 erasing the ballots of leave voters in order to ensure the victory of remain (the #usepens nutters and so forth), and I'm realizing that the UK has tripped across a methodology for determining whether or not democratic elections have been completely subverted by the nation's elites. It goes something like this:
METHOD FOR TESTING THE EFFICACY OF DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS:
Congratulations, UK voters! You now know that your electoral system is relatively uncompromised!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [79 favorites]
METHOD FOR TESTING THE EFFICACY OF DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS:
- Come up with an idea that sounds reasonable to the relatively uninformed public, but that no oligarch/member of the elite would ever support. To catch both corrupt oligarchs who rule in their own interests and also honest insiders who simply want the best for the electorate as a whole, this idea would have to be something that corrupt elites wouldn't support because it would mortally damage their own positions, and also something that relatively honest elites would never support, because it would mortally damage the prospects of the entire country.
- Arrange for a referendum on that idea.
Congratulations, UK voters! You now know that your electoral system is relatively uncompromised!
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [79 favorites]
I'm not entirely sure these two pictures support the idea that EU is bad because it's run by unelected Brusselaars, or that your local UK parliament is good.
It's not binary, but the classic Tony Benn case against the EU is that the lack of accountability is built into its workings to a degree that makes it impossible to reform without its break up.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not binary, but the classic Tony Benn case against the EU is that the lack of accountability is built into its workings to a degree that makes it impossible to reform without its break up.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:35 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The theory that most of the (cosmopolitan, assuredly middle-class) left folks I know are clinging to at the moment goes a little like this. It's in two parts:
- The UK is currently the biggest brake on the EU's ability to pass stringent regulation in the financial sector, regarding labor rights, human rights, the environment, etc. An EU without a UK is much more likely to pass legislation with teeth...
- ...which the UK will nevertheless be compelled to accept as the price of access to the single market. [ETA:] There will be no bending on this principle from the EU side of the table, our encourager les autres.
For all that it sounds like wishful thinking, and it does, it is a plausible and consistent construction of the facts as they exist at this moment.
I apologize if someone's already articulated this theory here, either in this or the other megathread; I don't recall having seen it laid out explicitly.
posted by adamgreenfield at 10:37 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
- The UK is currently the biggest brake on the EU's ability to pass stringent regulation in the financial sector, regarding labor rights, human rights, the environment, etc. An EU without a UK is much more likely to pass legislation with teeth...
- ...which the UK will nevertheless be compelled to accept as the price of access to the single market. [ETA:] There will be no bending on this principle from the EU side of the table, our encourager les autres.
For all that it sounds like wishful thinking, and it does, it is a plausible and consistent construction of the facts as they exist at this moment.
I apologize if someone's already articulated this theory here, either in this or the other megathread; I don't recall having seen it laid out explicitly.
posted by adamgreenfield at 10:37 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
Honestly I would assume that most of the City will eventually move to NYC or Zurich in some form or another.
Like chrischris said the City depended a lot on being in this weird gray zone of having access to the EU while also being able to avoid financial regulations that BNP and DB have to deal with.
Those Banks that are more or less built around maintaining some level of secrecy yet also having access to the EU might look to take advantage of the Swiss relationship and those that are more geared towards global markets will probably jump into the snake pit that is Wall Street.
I doubt that an independent Scotland would be able to maintain the UK special financial rules and even then I doubt that Edinburgh has access to the global infrastructure necessary to become central to the Eurozone financial structure. Modern finance works on milisecond tolerances and being too far from the center of action basically eliminates your ability to compete.
posted by vuron at 10:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like chrischris said the City depended a lot on being in this weird gray zone of having access to the EU while also being able to avoid financial regulations that BNP and DB have to deal with.
Those Banks that are more or less built around maintaining some level of secrecy yet also having access to the EU might look to take advantage of the Swiss relationship and those that are more geared towards global markets will probably jump into the snake pit that is Wall Street.
I doubt that an independent Scotland would be able to maintain the UK special financial rules and even then I doubt that Edinburgh has access to the global infrastructure necessary to become central to the Eurozone financial structure. Modern finance works on milisecond tolerances and being too far from the center of action basically eliminates your ability to compete.
posted by vuron at 10:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Vote Leave campaign has scrubbed its homepage of links to its speeches and editorials "In the wake of the EU referendum, the Vote Leave campaign has wiped its homepage...... The only active links are to the campaign's Privacy Policy and contact details."
Why, it's almost as if they don't want people to realize their promises were, shall we say, misleading?
posted by pjsky at 10:41 AM on June 27, 2016 [62 favorites]
Why, it's almost as if they don't want people to realize their promises were, shall we say, misleading?
posted by pjsky at 10:41 AM on June 27, 2016 [62 favorites]
Did this comment from the Guardian comments section get posted before (link is to a WashPost article.)
It basically argues that Boris got punked by Cameron, and has been absent because he realizes he's in an impossible position. By resigning rather than triggering Article 50, Cameron is placing it on the shoulders of the next PM. In the mean time, people are thinking a lot more about what it really means, and the costs associated with it. So if the next PM is Boris, he's either got to do this unpopular thing that he says he supports, and suffer the substantial consequences, or not do it, and suffer the consequences of that. It's a persuasive argument about why he is so subdued.
posted by OmieWise at 10:44 AM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
It basically argues that Boris got punked by Cameron, and has been absent because he realizes he's in an impossible position. By resigning rather than triggering Article 50, Cameron is placing it on the shoulders of the next PM. In the mean time, people are thinking a lot more about what it really means, and the costs associated with it. So if the next PM is Boris, he's either got to do this unpopular thing that he says he supports, and suffer the substantial consequences, or not do it, and suffer the consequences of that. It's a persuasive argument about why he is so subdued.
posted by OmieWise at 10:44 AM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Thank you for this amazing post.
The very first link was really helpful to me! I feel like I have been reading the 201 about Brexit before understanding the 101. This really clarified.
posted by latkes at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The very first link was really helpful to me! I feel like I have been reading the 201 about Brexit before understanding the 101. This really clarified.
posted by latkes at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Honestly I would assume that most of the City will eventually move to NYC or Zurich in some form or another.
Well, NYC is no good because it's in the wrong time zone.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, NYC is no good because it's in the wrong time zone.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Per the Wired link above, the Leave Youtube channel. So far, the vids are still up.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The European Commission [...] propose and write the laws, implement decisions and laws, and run the European institutions. The commission employs roughly 30,000 people. No member of the European Commission is elected.
I guess the idiot who wrote that forgot to inform the commission, because they sure don't know they're running the show themselves.
And they're all elected -- the parliament elects the president, and the president and the council then nominates the rest of the members (one from each country, who suggests candidates). They are then approved by the parliament. This is not that different from how the UK government is put together.
posted by effbot at 10:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
I guess the idiot who wrote that forgot to inform the commission, because they sure don't know they're running the show themselves.
And they're all elected -- the parliament elects the president, and the president and the council then nominates the rest of the members (one from each country, who suggests candidates). They are then approved by the parliament. This is not that different from how the UK government is put together.
posted by effbot at 10:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Re the "simple cartoon" explanation I surmise that's what happens to simple cartoons when they're made compliant with EU regulations.
posted by zippy at 10:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zippy at 10:50 AM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Did this comment from the Guardian comments section get posted before (link is to a WashPost article.)
Yes, it's linked at least three times in the previous thread, and quoted in a few more comments :-)
posted by effbot at 10:51 AM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, it's linked at least three times in the previous thread, and quoted in a few more comments :-)
posted by effbot at 10:51 AM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
It must be the EU who edited "I'm not your friend, buddy!" out of the cartoon.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:51 AM on June 27, 2016
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:51 AM on June 27, 2016
Passing progressive reforms through the EU sans the UK does seem much more likely.
And assuming that EEA and EFTA access are mandatory for any future state agreement it seems like there are possibly some silver linings for the left.
1)Civil Rights advancements because EEA members are obligated to pass laws in agreement with the EU in areas of social policy
2)Environmental improvements because EEA are obligated to meet certain environmental policies
3)Corporate reform because of EEA obligation to adhere to EU consumer protection and corporate rules.
4)Maintainance of free movement provisions - hahaha UKIP assholes
All in return for having absolutely no say on what the EU wants to pass.
But I guess having complete control over agricultural and fishing policies is worthwhile because it's apparently still the 19th century for some Leavers.
Oh and you know the unfortunate side effects like nuking a large percentage of the wealth of people in the UK and the inevitable violence directed at immigrants.
But I guess that's a cool way of sticking it to those Brussels Bureaucrats. Why they seem to be trembling just waiting to surrender to British demands. Wait what they are already pushing for the UK to engage in a quick exit? I guess that worked out well.
posted by vuron at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
And assuming that EEA and EFTA access are mandatory for any future state agreement it seems like there are possibly some silver linings for the left.
1)Civil Rights advancements because EEA members are obligated to pass laws in agreement with the EU in areas of social policy
2)Environmental improvements because EEA are obligated to meet certain environmental policies
3)Corporate reform because of EEA obligation to adhere to EU consumer protection and corporate rules.
4)Maintainance of free movement provisions - hahaha UKIP assholes
All in return for having absolutely no say on what the EU wants to pass.
But I guess having complete control over agricultural and fishing policies is worthwhile because it's apparently still the 19th century for some Leavers.
Oh and you know the unfortunate side effects like nuking a large percentage of the wealth of people in the UK and the inevitable violence directed at immigrants.
But I guess that's a cool way of sticking it to those Brussels Bureaucrats. Why they seem to be trembling just waiting to surrender to British demands. Wait what they are already pushing for the UK to engage in a quick exit? I guess that worked out well.
posted by vuron at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
- The UK is currently the biggest brake on the EU's ability to pass stringent regulation in the financial sector, regarding labor rights, human rights, the environment, etc. An EU without a UK is much more likely to pass legislation with teeth...
- ...which the UK will nevertheless be compelled to accept as the price of access to the single market.
So this theory basically says:
- Elected UK leaders are the biggest brake on the EU's ability to accomplish certain things that would help people
- Instead of getting rid of those leaders and replacing them with better ones, let's get rid of the EU
- Let's not notice that the UK will still have the same leaders who still won't give a darn about workers, etc..., except now the EU won't be there to act as any kind of a brake on them
I can see why you find this strategy wishful thinking.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
- ...which the UK will nevertheless be compelled to accept as the price of access to the single market.
So this theory basically says:
- Elected UK leaders are the biggest brake on the EU's ability to accomplish certain things that would help people
- Instead of getting rid of those leaders and replacing them with better ones, let's get rid of the EU
- Let's not notice that the UK will still have the same leaders who still won't give a darn about workers, etc..., except now the EU won't be there to act as any kind of a brake on them
I can see why you find this strategy wishful thinking.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, NYC is no good because it's in the wrong time zone.
From a strictly British perspective, I suspect all alternatives are in the wrong time zone :-)
posted by effbot at 10:57 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
From a strictly British perspective, I suspect all alternatives are in the wrong time zone :-)
posted by effbot at 10:57 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, it's linked at least three times in the previous thread, and quoted in a few more comments :-)
I figured that was likely, but damned if I was going to wade through that behemoth to find out. ;)
posted by OmieWise at 10:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I figured that was likely, but damned if I was going to wade through that behemoth to find out. ;)
posted by OmieWise at 10:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Congratulations, UK voters! You now know that your electoral system is relatively uncompromised!
That is very likely to be the case. But even if the electoral system were heavily compromised, and the government had the ability to alter the outcome of the referendum through electoral fraud, two factors decreased the probability of its doing so. Firstly, the government believed that the likelihood of the voters electing to leave the EU was relatively small, based on evidence supplied by opinion polls and currency markets (which, admittedly, may have priced in the probability of the government altering the outcome of the referendum). Secondly, the government may have believed that even if the voters elected to leave the EU, such an outcome could nonetheless be averted (e.g., by holding a second referendum or calling a snap election in which pro-EU parties would emerge victorious). Since the risks of committing electoral fraud are quite high, these factors may have sufficed to dissuade the government from undertaking such action.
posted by Abelian Grape at 10:59 AM on June 27, 2016
That is very likely to be the case. But even if the electoral system were heavily compromised, and the government had the ability to alter the outcome of the referendum through electoral fraud, two factors decreased the probability of its doing so. Firstly, the government believed that the likelihood of the voters electing to leave the EU was relatively small, based on evidence supplied by opinion polls and currency markets (which, admittedly, may have priced in the probability of the government altering the outcome of the referendum). Secondly, the government may have believed that even if the voters elected to leave the EU, such an outcome could nonetheless be averted (e.g., by holding a second referendum or calling a snap election in which pro-EU parties would emerge victorious). Since the risks of committing electoral fraud are quite high, these factors may have sufficed to dissuade the government from undertaking such action.
posted by Abelian Grape at 10:59 AM on June 27, 2016
From a strictly British perspective, I suspect all alternatives are in the wrong time zone :-)
Oi! What latitude!?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:00 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oi! What latitude!?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:00 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
But I guess having complete control over agricultural and fishing policies is worthwhile because it's apparently still the 19th century for some Leavers.
Speaking of which the British beef industry is pretty fucked. They won't receive the Single Farm Payment which was basically the only thing keeping them on life support.
posted by Talez at 11:01 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Speaking of which the British beef industry is pretty fucked. They won't receive the Single Farm Payment which was basically the only thing keeping them on life support.
posted by Talez at 11:01 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can see why you find this strategy wishful thinking.
Ah, but I didn't say it was a strategy. I'd think of it, instead, as a desperate, rearguard attempt to wrest some kind of socially progressive outcome from the jaws of defeat.
Bear in mind that I have deep, deep sympathies with the left-exit position, but can't imagine acting on them under circumstances that would embolden the nativist right.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ah, but I didn't say it was a strategy. I'd think of it, instead, as a desperate, rearguard attempt to wrest some kind of socially progressive outcome from the jaws of defeat.
Bear in mind that I have deep, deep sympathies with the left-exit position, but can't imagine acting on them under circumstances that would embolden the nativist right.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:02 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Downloaded all the Vote Leave videos from YouTube - we can make sure they don't get disappeared too. MeMail if you want the archive.
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 11:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 11:03 AM on June 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
The Gruaniad's Business Live gets scarier by the moment
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:06 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:06 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Wow, all the way down to AA. That's a pretty stiff rebuke. That'll be felt.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:08 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
(And when I say "felt," I mean "experienced in ways that will even impact Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson in his Islington home.")
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:09 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:09 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Talez: I went from Cornwall to London and back last week and saw lots of Vote Leave posters on farmland bordering the rail track. My initial expectation was that this was pretty straightforward nationalist tory stuff but thinking about it I was pretty surprised. Getting out of the CAP? That's got to be pretty damn risky if you are a farmer, and there will be lots of other pots of cash that might also get cut off. I was at the European parliament a few months ago and some guy gave us a presentation about how agriculture represents something like 47% of the EU budget. Maybe some farmers may feel pretty confident that they will be in line ahead of the NHS for that 350M a week. Though I coming to think of it as the 350M loaves and fishes since apparently it will be enough to feed everyone.
posted by biffa at 11:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by biffa at 11:11 AM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
That two notch demolishing of the UK credit rating. Holy fucking shit.
posted by Talez at 11:12 AM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Talez at 11:12 AM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
The Gruaniad's Business Live gets scarier by the moment
In the immortal words of Sir Richard Mottram:
In the immortal words of Sir Richard Mottram:
"We're all fucked. I'm fucked. You're fucked. The whole department is fucked. It's the biggest cock-up ever. We're all completely fucked."posted by effbot at 11:13 AM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Moody's cut UK's credit outlook to 'negative'
The UK has lost its top AAA credit rating from ratings agency S&P following the country's vote to leave the EU.
posted by infini at 11:16 AM on June 27, 2016
The UK has lost its top AAA credit rating from ratings agency S&P following the country's vote to leave the EU.
posted by infini at 11:16 AM on June 27, 2016
On the point about racist abuse, I see people trying to claim that these are rare, isolated incidents that are just getting publicity now because of the Brexit vote.
I am a barrister based in Birmingham. I know, either as colleagues, or well enough to chat to if I see them at court or in the street, perhaps 200 other local lawyers. In the last 8 days, of those 200:
- one has had a very close friend murdered, said friend being Jo Cox MP, active Remain campaigner.
- one has had his father physically assaulted whilst campaigning for Remain.
- one, today, was assumed to be European whilst out shopping and told "we've voted for you to go home".
This is not rare. These are not isolated incidents. As someone has observed, whilst nowhere near 52% of the UK are anti-immigrant racists, the substantial minority who are have been emboldened to believe that 52% of the UK agrees with them, and are acting accordingly.
posted by Major Clanger at 11:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [104 favorites]
I am a barrister based in Birmingham. I know, either as colleagues, or well enough to chat to if I see them at court or in the street, perhaps 200 other local lawyers. In the last 8 days, of those 200:
- one has had a very close friend murdered, said friend being Jo Cox MP, active Remain campaigner.
- one has had his father physically assaulted whilst campaigning for Remain.
- one, today, was assumed to be European whilst out shopping and told "we've voted for you to go home".
This is not rare. These are not isolated incidents. As someone has observed, whilst nowhere near 52% of the UK are anti-immigrant racists, the substantial minority who are have been emboldened to believe that 52% of the UK agrees with them, and are acting accordingly.
posted by Major Clanger at 11:17 AM on June 27, 2016 [104 favorites]
Yes, talk about a rebuke - S&P was expected to downgrade the UK's credit rating from AAA, but to skip AA+ and lower it to AA, with a negative outlook on top of that, is brutal.
Behind the business-like tones of their press release is an unmistakable kiss-off: "In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, stable, and effective policy framework in the U.K. We have reassessed our view of the U.K.'s institutional assessment and now no longer consider it a strength in our assessment of the rating." And they go on: "The negative outlook reflects the risk to economic prospects, fiscal and external performance, and the role of sterling as a reserve currency, as well as risks to the constitutional and economic integrity of the U.K. if there is another referendum on Scottish independence."
They didn't even bother to wait until Friday to issue this, the way they did with the European debt crisis.
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Behind the business-like tones of their press release is an unmistakable kiss-off: "In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, stable, and effective policy framework in the U.K. We have reassessed our view of the U.K.'s institutional assessment and now no longer consider it a strength in our assessment of the rating." And they go on: "The negative outlook reflects the risk to economic prospects, fiscal and external performance, and the role of sterling as a reserve currency, as well as risks to the constitutional and economic integrity of the U.K. if there is another referendum on Scottish independence."
They didn't even bother to wait until Friday to issue this, the way they did with the European debt crisis.
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
It is a weird feature of our flaming crap-sack present that I now look to Dr. Chuck Tingle to make me laugh about horrible horrible situations. Luckily, between his new book Pounded by the Pound, the best review of it ever, and most importantly, J.K. Rowling tweeting about both approvingly(!!!), all true buckaroos can rejoice.
posted by sgranade at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by sgranade at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
The EU wants what's best for THE EU.
Quite a lot is packed into that phrase though.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016
Quite a lot is packed into that phrase though.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2016
I'm becoming increasingly concerned/convinced that there will be a history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.
posted by VTX at 11:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by VTX at 11:19 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
On the point about racist abuse, I see people trying to claim that these are rare, isolated incidents that are just getting publicity now because of the Brexit vote.
posted by infini at 11:21 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
A Facebook group set up to document the rise in racism in the UK following the Brexit vote says it is “already seeing a stark increase in racist harassment and aggression.”via
“It seems that the referendum has validated and vindicated racist views; racist behaviour is now shameless in its expression. This cannot go unchallenged,” the organizers wrote.
“We must not stand by and tolerate the normalisation and mainstreaming of racism. Just because we’ve voted to leave the European Union DOES NOT mean there is a democratic mandate for racist harassment, aggression, intimidation or hate speech.”
posted by infini at 11:21 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
For greater clarity, I have inserted [less] where applicable:
“In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, [less] stable, and [less] effective policy framework in the U.K. We have reassessed our view of the U.K.’s institutional assessment and now no longer consider it a strength in our assessment of the rating.”posted by Mister Bijou at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2016
My initial expectation was that this was pretty straightforward nationalist tory stuff but thinking about it I was pretty surprised. Getting out of the CAP? That's got to be pretty damn risky if you are a farmer, and there will be lots of other pots of cash that might also get cut off.
It's hard to know. 55% of the farming income in the UK comes from CAP. Any farmer who votes Leave should be damn sure they know what they're doing to try and keep receiving that level of money from Whitehall. Without it most small farms will probably go broke.
posted by Talez at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2016
It's hard to know. 55% of the farming income in the UK comes from CAP. Any farmer who votes Leave should be damn sure they know what they're doing to try and keep receiving that level of money from Whitehall. Without it most small farms will probably go broke.
posted by Talez at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2016
history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.
Funny, I was thinking just the opposite. If this isn't a wake up call, then we deserve it. As a planet.
posted by infini at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Funny, I was thinking just the opposite. If this isn't a wake up call, then we deserve it. As a planet.
posted by infini at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I saw a funny tweet the other day, gist was "That feeling you get when you realise the year you're living in is going to be the title of an awful lot of history books twenty years from now."
posted by Diablevert at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [46 favorites]
posted by Diablevert at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [46 favorites]
I'm becoming increasingly concerned/convinced that there will be a history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.
Wherein Britain loses, defeated by itself.
posted by No Robots at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wherein Britain loses, defeated by itself.
posted by No Robots at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm becoming increasingly concerned/convinced that there will be a history text book with a timeline of the causes and contributing events that start WW3 and Brexit will get it's own chapter in that book.
Russia hasn't even invaded anything yet.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016
Russia hasn't even invaded anything yet.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on June 27, 2016
Wherein Britain loses, defeated by itself.
Britain invades the EU to force the EU to trade with Britain.
World War 3: This time the Brits are the bad guys!
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2016
Britain invades the EU to force the EU to trade with Britain.
World War 3: This time the Brits are the bad guys!
posted by Talez at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2016
Russia hasn't even invaded anything yet.
*Crimea outside the window, jumping and waving its arms*
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [71 favorites]
*Crimea outside the window, jumping and waving its arms*
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 11:25 AM on June 27, 2016 [71 favorites]
Delay Brexit negotiations so people can go on holiday first, Vote Leave chief Matthew Elliot says
posted by maryr at 11:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by maryr at 11:27 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Delay Brexit negotiations so people can go on holiday first, Vote Leave chief Matthew Elliot says
Oh good lord. I do hope the EU just boots these folks while they are on holiday.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh good lord. I do hope the EU just boots these folks while they are on holiday.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
This may have been posted in the other thread (I didn't see it), but I found this to be a very good article on Brexit, why it happened, and how:
http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/
One part I found extra interesting:
http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/
One part I found extra interesting:
Amongst people who have utterly given up on the future, political movements don’t need to promise any desirable and realistic change. If anything, they are more comforting and trustworthy if predicated on the notion that the future is beyond rescue, for that chimes more closely with people’s private experiences.posted by cell divide at 11:28 AM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Wonka_yougetnothing_youlose.gif
posted by The Whelk at 11:31 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:31 AM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I saw a funny tweet the other day, gist was "That feeling you get when you realise the year you're living in is going to be the title of an awful lot of history books twenty years from now."
1974 Redux
posted by My Dad at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
1974 Redux
posted by My Dad at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh good lord. I do hope the EU just boots these folks while they are on holiday.
Well, this won't happen because people aren't going away, well annedotally, according to a friend on mine in France, lots of campsites are being left empty because people have cancelled their trips. She just lost 3 months work.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, this won't happen because people aren't going away, well annedotally, according to a friend on mine in France, lots of campsites are being left empty because people have cancelled their trips. She just lost 3 months work.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:36 AM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is there a way that you guys can lock the doors behind them when they go down to sunny Majorca for holidays?
I mean what are the chances they will carry their passports when they leave and can customs agents actually be sure that they are who they say they are.
They could actually be Poles with posh accents.
posted by vuron at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean what are the chances they will carry their passports when they leave and can customs agents actually be sure that they are who they say they are.
They could actually be Poles with posh accents.
posted by vuron at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the Centre for European Reform page linked somewhere upthread - How Leave outgunned Remain.
The BBC’s performance during the referendum campaign was lamentable. Of course it was right to give equal prominence and time to the two sides. But it failed to fulfil its legal obligation to inform and to educate. When senior journalists interviewed Leave campaigners, who said things that were untrue, the comments often went unchallenged. Why was this? Having spoken to many BBC journalists – some of whom acknowledge there was a serious problem – I conclude there were at least two reasons.
First, a lot of well-known BBC presenters and interviewers know very little about the EU. So when, for example, a Leaver said (as they often did) that the ‘five presidents’ report’ showed that a super-state was under construction, with a European army, and that Britain would have to join, the interviewer let it pass. Few BBC journalists knew that this infamous report only concerned the eurozone, did not mention an EU army, did not apply to Britain and had been effectively vetoed by Germany.
On June 21st the BBC broadcast a televised debate from Wembley Arena. Between each section of the debate, a voiceover sought to explain the factual background to the next subject for discussion. One of these voices stated that “EU leaders are discussing the creation of a European army”, which is completely untrue. When I set up the CER, 18 years ago, BBC journalists were much better briefed on EU matters than they are today. There are, of course, honourable exceptions who are well-informed, and many of them regret that the BBC made only half-hearted efforts to educate staff before the campaign began.
The second point is that some interviewers were quite well-informed, but still held back from correcting Leavers when they made untrue statements. As an institution, the BBC was terrified of being thought of as pro-EU – partly because of the sheer volume of complaints it receives from hard-line Outers. So the BBC bent over backwards not to behave in ways that could be construed as biased against Leave. One of the BBC’s most senior journalists confessed to me, a few days before the referendum: “If we give a Leaver a hard time, we know that the Mail or the Sun may pick on us and that that is bad for our careers. But if we are tough on Remainers it might upset the Guardian and that doesn’t matter at all. This affects the way some colleagues handle interviews.”
posted by adamvasco at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
The BBC’s performance during the referendum campaign was lamentable. Of course it was right to give equal prominence and time to the two sides. But it failed to fulfil its legal obligation to inform and to educate. When senior journalists interviewed Leave campaigners, who said things that were untrue, the comments often went unchallenged. Why was this? Having spoken to many BBC journalists – some of whom acknowledge there was a serious problem – I conclude there were at least two reasons.
First, a lot of well-known BBC presenters and interviewers know very little about the EU. So when, for example, a Leaver said (as they often did) that the ‘five presidents’ report’ showed that a super-state was under construction, with a European army, and that Britain would have to join, the interviewer let it pass. Few BBC journalists knew that this infamous report only concerned the eurozone, did not mention an EU army, did not apply to Britain and had been effectively vetoed by Germany.
On June 21st the BBC broadcast a televised debate from Wembley Arena. Between each section of the debate, a voiceover sought to explain the factual background to the next subject for discussion. One of these voices stated that “EU leaders are discussing the creation of a European army”, which is completely untrue. When I set up the CER, 18 years ago, BBC journalists were much better briefed on EU matters than they are today. There are, of course, honourable exceptions who are well-informed, and many of them regret that the BBC made only half-hearted efforts to educate staff before the campaign began.
The second point is that some interviewers were quite well-informed, but still held back from correcting Leavers when they made untrue statements. As an institution, the BBC was terrified of being thought of as pro-EU – partly because of the sheer volume of complaints it receives from hard-line Outers. So the BBC bent over backwards not to behave in ways that could be construed as biased against Leave. One of the BBC’s most senior journalists confessed to me, a few days before the referendum: “If we give a Leaver a hard time, we know that the Mail or the Sun may pick on us and that that is bad for our careers. But if we are tough on Remainers it might upset the Guardian and that doesn’t matter at all. This affects the way some colleagues handle interviews.”
posted by adamvasco at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
Sounds like Greenwald and I are on nearly exactly the same page.
“Most of the media … failed to see this coming. … The alienation of the people charged with documenting the national mood from the people who actually define it is one of the ruptures that has led to this moment.” Gary Younge similarly denounced “a section of the London-based commentariat [that] anthropologized the British working class as though they were a lesser evolved breed from distant parts, all too often portraying them as bigots who did not know what was good for them.” Ian Jack’s article was headlined “In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them,” and he described how “gradually the sight of empty towns and shuttered shops became normalized or forgotten.”
This is the big failure in the US as well. Our media has dropped the ball entirely.
Of course, this is nothing new. It recalls the Rodney King riots in LA in the 80's. The newscasters all white and bronzed, perfect coifs, expensive suits, not even being able to begin to parse what was going on on the ground because it was so outside of the world they lived in.
See Dunbar's Number. If you are massively rich and only ever meet or spend time with other rich people, you literally have no idea whatsoever what the other 99% live like. (Although to be fair, the same works in reverse.)
How can you ostensibly represent someone you don't even begin to understand?
As the Brexit vote proves, you can't.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
“Most of the media … failed to see this coming. … The alienation of the people charged with documenting the national mood from the people who actually define it is one of the ruptures that has led to this moment.” Gary Younge similarly denounced “a section of the London-based commentariat [that] anthropologized the British working class as though they were a lesser evolved breed from distant parts, all too often portraying them as bigots who did not know what was good for them.” Ian Jack’s article was headlined “In this Brexit vote, the poor turned on an elite who ignored them,” and he described how “gradually the sight of empty towns and shuttered shops became normalized or forgotten.”
This is the big failure in the US as well. Our media has dropped the ball entirely.
Of course, this is nothing new. It recalls the Rodney King riots in LA in the 80's. The newscasters all white and bronzed, perfect coifs, expensive suits, not even being able to begin to parse what was going on on the ground because it was so outside of the world they lived in.
See Dunbar's Number. If you are massively rich and only ever meet or spend time with other rich people, you literally have no idea whatsoever what the other 99% live like. (Although to be fair, the same works in reverse.)
How can you ostensibly represent someone you don't even begin to understand?
As the Brexit vote proves, you can't.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:40 AM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Delay Brexit negotiations so people can go on holiday first, Vote Leave chief Matthew Elliot says
Hahaha. Christ. I hear Aberdeen is lovely this time of year. You may even be able to negotiate some exclusive offers, unavailable to anybody else!
posted by Chrischris at 11:42 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hahaha. Christ. I hear Aberdeen is lovely this time of year. You may even be able to negotiate some exclusive offers, unavailable to anybody else!
posted by Chrischris at 11:42 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
As always Greenwald loves to shovel out blame to whatever bugaboos he's angry at. Basically he's scolding liberals for scolding the working class poor.
Nevermind that rage for the sake of rage is completely counterproductive. Never mind that Leave is enabling all sorts of racially motivated violence. Nevermind that Leave supporters explicitly denied the likely negative consequences. Nevermind that conditions for the working poor in the UK outside of the EU are likely to be much worse than conditions within.
Nope it's all the fault of the elites. Which interestingly enough mirrors the same rhetoric coming from the nationalistic populists on the right. I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander ehh?
Funny how he really doesn't offer any sort of tangible solutions to the current mess and how to improve the lives of average Britons. It's just backwards facing problem focused scolding rather than advocating for positive change.
posted by vuron at 11:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
Nevermind that rage for the sake of rage is completely counterproductive. Never mind that Leave is enabling all sorts of racially motivated violence. Nevermind that Leave supporters explicitly denied the likely negative consequences. Nevermind that conditions for the working poor in the UK outside of the EU are likely to be much worse than conditions within.
Nope it's all the fault of the elites. Which interestingly enough mirrors the same rhetoric coming from the nationalistic populists on the right. I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander ehh?
Funny how he really doesn't offer any sort of tangible solutions to the current mess and how to improve the lives of average Britons. It's just backwards facing problem focused scolding rather than advocating for positive change.
posted by vuron at 11:48 AM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
I'm starting to think the Queen should dissolve parliament and force a new general election. I am only semi-joking.
posted by crocomancer at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by crocomancer at 11:54 AM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm starting to think the Queen should dissolve parliament and force a new general election. I am only semi-joking.
Be careful what you ask for. Labour is utterly imploding as we speak.
posted by zachlipton at 11:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Be careful what you ask for. Labour is utterly imploding as we speak.
posted by zachlipton at 11:56 AM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Labour Party could not just fucking once sit back and capitalise and say "see where the Tories have got us all!" No, straight to the back-stabbing.
posted by billiebee at 11:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 11:58 AM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
That credit rating downgrade - I didn't fully appreciate the repercussions, but it's going to be a killer for British business:
A company can’t have a higher credit rating than its own country because sovereign states, and their central banks, are the lenders of last resort, in times of crisis.
So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
A company can’t have a higher credit rating than its own country because sovereign states, and their central banks, are the lenders of last resort, in times of crisis.
So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
Yeah, those oh so perfect elites that haven't done anything like blast media with fear-mongering about foreigners for decades, which certainly helps solidify that racist bullshit in the hearts of people who might just plain not know any better.
I mean, we couldn't step back and point the finger at well educated and intelligent people who are taking poor shmucks on a ride.
I mean, it's always the fault of the poor and uneducated when they get screwed by someone rich and educated, right? Right?
Give me a fucking break.
People don't feel like they can trust an increasingly insulated elite who will do damned everything to cover up their tracks about every little thing that might be slightly embarrassing. (I mean, these British fucks can't even root out fucking pedo MP's)
Does that mean the Brexit was the right solution? Hell no. Does it excuse any of the racist bullshit? Fuck no.
But understanding where that shit stems from is important to being able to create positive change.
The more the god damned elites hand wave things like income inequality away or a decades long war on terror that has done nothing but increase fear of foreigners, and act like everything is fine, just keep chugging along, we broke it but we can fix it, and the more we let them do that shit the further away we get from being able to make positive change.
People are angry, and the media has certainly helped them find a powerless scapegoat in immigrants.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I mean, we couldn't step back and point the finger at well educated and intelligent people who are taking poor shmucks on a ride.
I mean, it's always the fault of the poor and uneducated when they get screwed by someone rich and educated, right? Right?
Give me a fucking break.
People don't feel like they can trust an increasingly insulated elite who will do damned everything to cover up their tracks about every little thing that might be slightly embarrassing. (I mean, these British fucks can't even root out fucking pedo MP's)
Does that mean the Brexit was the right solution? Hell no. Does it excuse any of the racist bullshit? Fuck no.
But understanding where that shit stems from is important to being able to create positive change.
The more the god damned elites hand wave things like income inequality away or a decades long war on terror that has done nothing but increase fear of foreigners, and act like everything is fine, just keep chugging along, we broke it but we can fix it, and the more we let them do that shit the further away we get from being able to make positive change.
People are angry, and the media has certainly helped them find a powerless scapegoat in immigrants.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
"In our opinion, this outcome is a seminal event, and will lead to a less predictable, stable, and effective policy framework in the U.K.
The wording here reminds me of nothing so much as the bulletin issued by the NWS immediately prior to the landfall of Hurricane Katrina. I find this reassuring not in the slightest.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:00 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
The wording here reminds me of nothing so much as the bulletin issued by the NWS immediately prior to the landfall of Hurricane Katrina. I find this reassuring not in the slightest.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:00 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?
posted by dilaudid at 12:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dilaudid at 12:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
But there have been a ton of people that have been advocating passionately for Remain. That the EU has problems but it's easier to fix those problems from inside the system than outside the system. That if you genuinely care about fixing the problems of the working class Leave was the wrong choice.
But instead we have all sorts of pundits on the left crowing triumphantly about the triumph of democracy over the elites. As if there was some sort of moral good coming out of this mess. Yes the working class are probably going to get completely fucked from Exit but at least it shows the elites that we can't be messed with and are willing to do all sorts of irrational things against our own interest because we are hopping mad.
The triumph of democracy is that there is a democratic vote. It would've been just as much of a triumph of democracy for Britons to back away from the ledge and say "You know the EU sucks but maybe we can work to change it".
But that isn't the lesson being learned. What is being learned is that if the elites use race-baiting strategies they can divide the working class and get them to fuck each other over.
Solidarity is what the left should be looking for but the politics of division and othering are apparently good for page hits.
posted by vuron at 12:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
But instead we have all sorts of pundits on the left crowing triumphantly about the triumph of democracy over the elites. As if there was some sort of moral good coming out of this mess. Yes the working class are probably going to get completely fucked from Exit but at least it shows the elites that we can't be messed with and are willing to do all sorts of irrational things against our own interest because we are hopping mad.
The triumph of democracy is that there is a democratic vote. It would've been just as much of a triumph of democracy for Britons to back away from the ledge and say "You know the EU sucks but maybe we can work to change it".
But that isn't the lesson being learned. What is being learned is that if the elites use race-baiting strategies they can divide the working class and get them to fuck each other over.
Solidarity is what the left should be looking for but the politics of division and othering are apparently good for page hits.
posted by vuron at 12:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
In an exclusive interview with ITV Wales Political Editor Adrian Masters, Plaid Cymru Leader Leanne Wood has revealed that she's calling a special party conference to prioritise a campaign for Welsh independence
posted by infini at 12:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Look, I'm no political genius, but this from the first link:
The vote doesn’t necessarily bind Britain to leaving the EU, but it likely will, because defying the will of the people would be politically bad.
makes me want to start chanting BOATY McBOATFACE! over and over. You want to talk "defying the will of the people" THE PEOPLE SPOKE AND NO ONE LISTENED.
posted by janey47 at 12:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
The vote doesn’t necessarily bind Britain to leaving the EU, but it likely will, because defying the will of the people would be politically bad.
makes me want to start chanting BOATY McBOATFACE! over and over. You want to talk "defying the will of the people" THE PEOPLE SPOKE AND NO ONE LISTENED.
posted by janey47 at 12:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP
posted by infini at 12:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, now this stupid fuck decision by a bunch of overgrown privileged schoolboys comes home.
posted by infini at 12:16 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:16 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'll have to brush up my O Level French *halfsob laugh*
posted by infini at 12:17 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:17 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
vuron: But instead we have all sorts of pundits on the left crowing triumphantly about the triumph of democracy over the elites.
Are you able to provide some links? From what I've seen, this is the line taken by pseudo-populist Rightists.
posted by No Robots at 12:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are you able to provide some links? From what I've seen, this is the line taken by pseudo-populist Rightists.
posted by No Robots at 12:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Labour Party could not just fucking once sit back and capitalise and say "see where the Tories have got us all!" No, straight to the back-stabbing.
While that's true (although they stabbed him in the front), I also think Corbyn isn't up to the actual job, which is about management and the skills of leadership. A certain number of people who quit could see that, and realised it was even more dangerous to wait than to push him now.
I've been broadly supportive of him, but at this point I think his critics are right. He's not up to it, and if he continues, he'll fail. If they do deselect all the MPs who resigned or disagree with him, they'll look like little more than a cult. And although these are suddenly extreme times requiring extreme measures, an organisation that behaves like that would simply not be flexible enough to actually have responsibility.
The most depressing thing is that there is now literally no party in England capable of running the country.
posted by Grangousier at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
While that's true (although they stabbed him in the front), I also think Corbyn isn't up to the actual job, which is about management and the skills of leadership. A certain number of people who quit could see that, and realised it was even more dangerous to wait than to push him now.
I've been broadly supportive of him, but at this point I think his critics are right. He's not up to it, and if he continues, he'll fail. If they do deselect all the MPs who resigned or disagree with him, they'll look like little more than a cult. And although these are suddenly extreme times requiring extreme measures, an organisation that behaves like that would simply not be flexible enough to actually have responsibility.
The most depressing thing is that there is now literally no party in England capable of running the country.
posted by Grangousier at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.
Well if they weren't leaving before...
Fuck.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well if they weren't leaving before...
Fuck.
posted by Artw at 12:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
That Politico article is laughable. The dek:
No other EU country has English as their official language and so it could lose its status.
I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?
posted by fitnr at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
No other EU country has English as their official language and so it could lose its status.
I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?
posted by fitnr at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP
IIRC, Google Translate relies heavily on EU publications to train its neural networks - because they're professionally translated, legally mandated, and cover a lot of different topics, they're a fantastically useful corpus for that purpose. In fact, with a few exceptions*, every language pair quietly goes through English - i.e., when you translate French to Russian, behind the scenes Google Translate is going French -> English and then English -> Russian. If EU docs are no longer translated into English, that could really fuck up the best machine translation software that currently exists.
*mostly closely related languages like Russian <> Ukrainian
posted by theodolite at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
IIRC, Google Translate relies heavily on EU publications to train its neural networks - because they're professionally translated, legally mandated, and cover a lot of different topics, they're a fantastically useful corpus for that purpose. In fact, with a few exceptions*, every language pair quietly goes through English - i.e., when you translate French to Russian, behind the scenes Google Translate is going French -> English and then English -> Russian. If EU docs are no longer translated into English, that could really fuck up the best machine translation software that currently exists.
*mostly closely related languages like Russian <> Ukrainian
posted by theodolite at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP
If Scotland goes indy and stays in, then they could be the official sponsor, if they're willing to forgo recognition of Gaelic.
More realistically, the Powers That Be realize that getting rid of English would seriously undermine the opportunity to shift all of London's banking activity to continental cities.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
If Scotland goes indy and stays in, then they could be the official sponsor, if they're willing to forgo recognition of Gaelic.
More realistically, the Powers That Be realize that getting rid of English would seriously undermine the opportunity to shift all of London's banking activity to continental cities.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?
The official language of Ireland is Irish.
posted by billiebee at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
The official language of Ireland is Irish.
posted by billiebee at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?
Each member gets to sponsor one language, presumably Ireland sponsors Irish.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Each member gets to sponsor one language, presumably Ireland sponsors Irish.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
English will not be an official EU language after Brexit, says senior MEP
That sounds like real scaremongering to me. English was the official working language used by Ireland after it joined the EEC. Insisting on the addition of Irish as a "working language" was a particularly stupid gesture by a later Irish government, and has been pretty well ignored in practice. Anyway, they've two years to get it scrapped if need be.
posted by Azara at 12:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
That sounds like real scaremongering to me. English was the official working language used by Ireland after it joined the EEC. Insisting on the addition of Irish as a "working language" was a particularly stupid gesture by a later Irish government, and has been pretty well ignored in practice. Anyway, they've two years to get it scrapped if need be.
posted by Azara at 12:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'll have to brush up my O Level French
Qual damage! Zoo alarm!
Or something like that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Qual damage! Zoo alarm!
Or something like that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
There are a variety of links to left wing pundits in the old thread who are going with the "well serves you right for ignoring the problems of the chavs you posh twits" sort of narrative. I don't know that it is indicative of the majority of pundits on the left many of which seem to be aligning with centrist "elites" in going "Oh shit what have we done".
But it seems common enough to be annoying, like they are trying to provide moral cover for the Left Leavers and trying to refute the narrative that Leave was primarily motivated by xenophobic racism.
Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
posted by vuron at 12:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
But it seems common enough to be annoying, like they are trying to provide moral cover for the Left Leavers and trying to refute the narrative that Leave was primarily motivated by xenophobic racism.
Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
posted by vuron at 12:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
The official language of Ireland is Irish.I was about to say this, but I double-checked, and Irish and English are both official languages (per Article 8 of the Constitution), though Irish is the "first official language", whatever that means.
posted by dfan at 12:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Pounded by the Pound
It seems only natural that the capital of Poundland would be Poundtown.
posted by bonehead at 12:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
It seems only natural that the capital of Poundland would be Poundtown.
posted by bonehead at 12:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?
Saying something, perhaps. Doing something, no. Trying to reassert somekind of actual monarchical control of politics would just make this look like more of a desperate shambles.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Saying something, perhaps. Doing something, no. Trying to reassert somekind of actual monarchical control of politics would just make this look like more of a desperate shambles.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I really hate the word "chavs". I wish we could avoid using it, even just as a "elites dismiss the concerns of the working class" way. Low information voters cross the class boundaries (my mother and father in law f'rex) and there are plenty of poor/unemployed folks who are incredibly politically engaged. If it's not too much to ask can we try and avoid using the term please?
posted by longbaugh at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 12:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
I doubt that Edinburgh has access to the global infrastructure necessary to become central to the Eurozone financial structure. Modern finance works on milisecond tolerances and being too far from the center of action basically eliminates your ability to compete.
Where exactly is this center of action that would make London ideally located, New York or Zurich a viable alternative, and Edinburgh too far away?
posted by rocket88 at 12:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Where exactly is this center of action that would make London ideally located, New York or Zurich a viable alternative, and Edinburgh too far away?
posted by rocket88 at 12:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Do you really want Prince Philip in front of a TV camera right now?
posted by cmfletcher at 12:32 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by cmfletcher at 12:32 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pounded by the Pound
It seems only natural that the capital of Poundland would be Poundtown.
The way this week is starting, I can only see it ending with Boris Johnson, in a chainmail slip, standing up in parliament and screaming, "Who Runs Bartertown!".
posted by Chrischris at 12:33 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
It seems only natural that the capital of Poundland would be Poundtown.
The way this week is starting, I can only see it ending with Boris Johnson, in a chainmail slip, standing up in parliament and screaming, "Who Runs Bartertown!".
posted by Chrischris at 12:33 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
I like Edinburgh too much to want to inflict those people and that architecture on it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 12:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I mean, I can understand not knowing that English is an official language in Malta, but forgetting about Ireland?
As the article explains, member states can have as many official languages as they like internally, but they only get to pick one for EU purposes. The UK chose English, so Ireland and Malta chose Gaelic and Maltese. It might be possible for a country to pick more than one (the article discusses this), it might be possible for Ireland or Malta to switch their choice, or the EU might keep English as an official language out of inertia.
posted by jedicus at 12:36 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
As the article explains, member states can have as many official languages as they like internally, but they only get to pick one for EU purposes. The UK chose English, so Ireland and Malta chose Gaelic and Maltese. It might be possible for a country to pick more than one (the article discusses this), it might be possible for Ireland or Malta to switch their choice, or the EU might keep English as an official language out of inertia.
posted by jedicus at 12:36 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Where exactly is this center of action that would make London ideally located, New York or Zurich a viable alternative, and Edinburgh too far away?
I presume they're referring to where existing financial industry networking infrastructure already exists, when milliseconds can cost you millions. For example:
I presume they're referring to where existing financial industry networking infrastructure already exists, when milliseconds can cost you millions. For example:
- Three Expensive Milliseconds
- The Microsecond Market
- Too Fast to Fail: How High-Speed Trading Fuels Wall Street Disasters
- The $300m cable that will save traders milliseconds
That Politico article is rubbish, all right.
English is the normal working language of the Irish Ministers and civil service officials who attend meetings in Brussels, and has been since 1972. Irish only became an official EU language in 2007, and the process of requiring everything official to be translated into Irish is still underway. So English has always been the language used by the Irish in EU meetings.
posted by Azara at 12:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
When Ireland and Malta joined the EU, English was already an official language, which is why the two countries asked for Gaelic and Maltese to be added to the listIreland joined at the same time as the UK, not with Malta!
English is the normal working language of the Irish Ministers and civil service officials who attend meetings in Brussels, and has been since 1972. Irish only became an official EU language in 2007, and the process of requiring everything official to be translated into Irish is still underway. So English has always been the language used by the Irish in EU meetings.
posted by Azara at 12:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
ohpleaseohpleaseohplease, if Nicola Sturgeon does get to be the one to keep the Divided Queendom's EU status, pleeeeaaase let her choose Scots as the official language, just for teh lulz …
posted by scruss at 12:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by scruss at 12:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Inside, Corbyn was asked to resign by all wings of the party: lefty Chris Matheson told him he wasn’t a leader, Jess Phillips begged him to quit, Yvette Cooper was the biggest hitter to give a speech, telling Jez he wasn’t good enough. Ex-shadow Scotland secretary Ian Murray revealed to the room that his constituency office had been targeted by Momentum, telling Corbyn “you keep encouraging them”, leaving staff “terrified“. He pleaded with the leadership to “call off the dogs“. Outside in a protest at Parliament Square Momentum representatives chanted “f**k you” to the plotters. A spokesman for Corbyn said: “Demonstrations are part of our democracy.”
posted by My Dad at 12:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by My Dad at 12:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
nitpick/query:
so Ireland and Malta chose Gaelic
I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language ('Scots'), not Irish?
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:43 PM on June 27, 2016
so Ireland and Malta chose Gaelic
I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language ('Scots'), not Irish?
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:43 PM on June 27, 2016
I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language, not Irish?
Nope. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages, but they are closely related, and both named "Gaelic".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Nope. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages, but they are closely related, and both named "Gaelic".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
English is the widely spoken language in even the UK-less EU so it's very unlikely they'd drop it.
posted by theodolite at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by theodolite at 12:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, HFT drives the practical limits of certain trading resources within a pretty finite radius.
Assuming that the FTSE is still around there is a definite need for a lot of resources in fairly close proximity to that exchange. So while the Bank as a whole could go to Edinburgh or any other fairly decent city there is a need for a decent amount of the infrastructure regarding trading to be in fairly close proximity to London. Same with any of the other major financial markets.
So yeah I guess in theory the Banks could suddenly go off to join RBS in Edinburgh and that would be funny as hell given RBS's threats concerning the Scottish Yes vote. Bankers gonna bank though.
posted by vuron at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2016
Assuming that the FTSE is still around there is a definite need for a lot of resources in fairly close proximity to that exchange. So while the Bank as a whole could go to Edinburgh or any other fairly decent city there is a need for a decent amount of the infrastructure regarding trading to be in fairly close proximity to London. Same with any of the other major financial markets.
So yeah I guess in theory the Banks could suddenly go off to join RBS in Edinburgh and that would be funny as hell given RBS's threats concerning the Scottish Yes vote. Bankers gonna bank though.
posted by vuron at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2016
Nope. Irish and Scottish Gaelic are different languages, but they are closely related, and both named "Gaelic".
Except that everybody in Ireland uses "Irish".
posted by Azara at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Except that everybody in Ireland uses "Irish".
posted by Azara at 12:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
The way this week is starting, I can only see it ending with Boris Johnson, in a chainmail slip, standing up in parliament and screaming, "Who Runs Bartertown!".
Well, in that case, surely Puntertown.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:51 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, in that case, surely Puntertown.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:51 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."
Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting them, blaming them, or talking down to them.
posted by Beholder at 12:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting them, blaming them, or talking down to them.
posted by Beholder at 12:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I thought Gaelic referred specifically to Scotland's Celtic-derived language ('Scots'), not Irish?
Depends on where you're from and the context. Also, Scots is a very different language from Scottish Gaelic.
Ireland joined at the same time as the UK, not with Malta!
Yeah, some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?
posted by jedicus at 12:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Depends on where you're from and the context. Also, Scots is a very different language from Scottish Gaelic.
Ireland joined at the same time as the UK, not with Malta!
Yeah, some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?
posted by jedicus at 12:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
So no corporation based in the UK can have a AAA or AA+ credit rating any longer? Whoa.
No, the Guardian is mistaken: there is no (necessary) connection between the credit rating of the UK government and that of UK-based corporations. And in addition to having no effect on British businesses, the credit rating downgrade has not had any effect on the British government, which has actually seen its borrowing costs decrease in the aftermath of the referendum. (Of course, leaving the common market will have a detrimental effect upon many British businesses.)
posted by Abelian Grape at 12:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
No, the Guardian is mistaken: there is no (necessary) connection between the credit rating of the UK government and that of UK-based corporations. And in addition to having no effect on British businesses, the credit rating downgrade has not had any effect on the British government, which has actually seen its borrowing costs decrease in the aftermath of the referendum. (Of course, leaving the common market will have a detrimental effect upon many British businesses.)
posted by Abelian Grape at 12:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?
It would seem that way, yes, but a heavy emphasis on "could" and "theory." The EU wants more global influence out of this, not less. Letting the UK become the only official Anglophone gateway to Europe by means of its departure doesn't serve the EU's goals.
Of course Ireland could switch its designation, or they could just change the rules and let members specify a national language for recognition, and a secondary preferred trade language.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:55 PM on June 27, 2016
It would seem that way, yes, but a heavy emphasis on "could" and "theory." The EU wants more global influence out of this, not less. Letting the UK become the only official Anglophone gateway to Europe by means of its departure doesn't serve the EU's goals.
Of course Ireland could switch its designation, or they could just change the rules and let members specify a national language for recognition, and a secondary preferred trade language.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:55 PM on June 27, 2016
Scots isn't Celtic. It's descended from Middle English with some Norse and Gaelic influences. Basically, before the was such a thing as England, there was an Anglo-Saxon kingdom up North that got conquered by Vikings and then by Scots. The border went back and forth a bit during the Middle Ages but it now forms part of Scotland.
posted by Diablevert at 12:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Diablevert at 12:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Kingdom Of England (that name prob not gonna fly though).
I've seen Poundland suggested.
If a certain aquatic tart approves, I propose Llogres.
posted by ocschwar at 12:56 PM on June 27, 2016
Academia aside, this conversation has everyone concerned. Was chatting with the guards at the recent midsummer concert and they were worried EU would fall apart as everyone thought they could leave.
Here's how the EU could prevent this:
make it possible, nay, easy, to have temporary departures from the Eurozone. That's what they should have done with Greece 5 fucking years ago.
Let Greece, or any other nation that needs to, issue euro-denominated scrip to civil servants and contractors, and accept it at face value, in order to get some amount of activity going.
It's perfectly legal in the USA. Towns did this all over the country during the Depression. California came close to doing it in 2008. Puerto Rico may end up doing it this year.
If the USA, an actual nation state, allows smaller governments to depart from the dollar zone during crises, then the EU, a thing-that-would-be-nation-state, should damn well allow it too.
Instead, the EU is doubling down, telling the UK that if they change their minds they have to ditch the pound. Not good. Not good at all.
posted by ocschwar at 1:02 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Re banking moving to Edinburgh, a blogger in the Financial Times pointed out that if Scotland votes independence what currency they'd use becomes an open question. The RBS would among the hardest hit institutions --- if Scotland is forced to float its own currency it'd be weaker than the pound now, and whether the new money would be Scottish sterling or euro RBS's massive debts would be in pounds.
posted by Diablevert at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Diablevert at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting or blaming them.
The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument.
Beyond that, how about the workers rights EU regulations the Tories have been desperate to get out of? They may not be enough or may not cover everything they should, but you never see the folks ranting about burdensome EU regulations proposing anything that gives an equivalent or better level of protection to workers.
posted by zachlipton at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument.
Beyond that, how about the workers rights EU regulations the Tories have been desperate to get out of? They may not be enough or may not cover everything they should, but you never see the folks ranting about burdensome EU regulations proposing anything that gives an equivalent or better level of protection to workers.
posted by zachlipton at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
@vuron
But there have been a ton of people that have been advocating passionately for Remain. That the EU has problems but it's easier to fix those problems from inside the system than outside the system. That if you genuinely care about fixing the problems of the working class Leave was the wrong choice.
I don't disagree with this at all. I believe I said as much. I'm not trying to defend the Brexit vote, or the racism, or the choices, but rather I'm saying all those things didn't happen in a vacuum. The media does influence the electorate, and while I know UK media tends to be better than their American counterparts, a good example of the failure here in the US is the fucking non-stop Trump coverage. Same thing happened with Sarah Palin in 08. People couldn't stand this person, but because they couldn't stand them, they wanted to know what stupid shit they were up to. Because of that, the media focused on them, even though there were actually far more important things going on, both then and now. Now, it has become worse, because now Trump actually is the candidate.
You know, maybe, just maybe if Trump hadn't been plastered all over the media, we wouldn't be stuck with him, and maybe, just maybe, two decades of fear-mongering about Islamic terrorism has come home to roost due to immigration fears, which Trump has been expertly exploiting (and I suspect the Leave group was, too), which in turn normalizes othering, and thus makes racist undertones more common, and thus viewed as more "normal."
Part of understanding these people is to be able to communicate with them, explain to them why Remain matters. It feels like this was unable to be articulated very well (obviously, since Leave won), which leads me to believe, especially with a lot of the abject shaming of everyone who voted leave, that the problem lies, once again, in not actually understanding where these feelings of animosity, lack of democracy, and racism are really stemming from, instead of just writing people off as bigots automatically. If you walk into the conversation thinking "God this fucking bigot," you're not likely going to be able to communicate your position to this person effectively. The endless shaming (even in this thread) of the Leave voters as "petulant children" and the like is immediately deciding to not understand how any of this happened, historically, and thus is absolutely making a choice to ignore the historical lesson and try to make solutions as though this all happened in a vacuum.
Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Ignoring the factors leading up to this vote is fucking perilous. Ignoring that the political, business and media elite have set the stage for this situation over decades means you will never be able to understand where to begin with these people.
Solidarity is what the left should be looking for but the politics of division and othering are apparently good for page hits.
I agree, solidarity is where things need to be at, but if we can't learn to listen to and understand things that contributed to getting us where we are now, then how can we ever make solidarity with the people who voted for Leave?
Racists, while shit, are still humans, and being super dismissive of how they got that way or how to change their mind is just asking for more horseshit just like this. Because obviously what we have been doing is not working.
Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
You want solidarity, but you're really dismissive of these people. They are British citizens, no matter how dumb their fucking choice was. You're ranting about a minority of leftists ostensibly "aligning" with them (nevermind a vote as big as Brexit definitely leaves people room to have their own leftist reasons to vote for it, and they have a right to do that, and it doesn't mean they're "aligning" with anybody), but you don't seem like you actually want solidarity with the majority of people who voted Leave. You really want solidarity? Learn to fucking talk to the racists and shut down the bullshit before it comes to this. Understanding the history of how this happened and understanding these people is imperative to that, it isn't saying this is a triumph against elites.
Leave won the vote. Maybe you should be more concerned with them than complaining about the other leftists who are trying to point out that maybe you should pay attention to these people's concerns and find ways to educate them if you want shit like this not to happen. Because obviously nobody managed to that before the fucking vote.
---
Beholder says it more succinctly than I ever could:
Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."
Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting them, blaming them, or talking down to them.
And you wan't them to find solidarity with elites who keep telling them that they're asking too much, and they should be happy with all the protections that the EU provides them? I mean, I'm jealous of EU protections, as an American citizen, but business all over the world is doing the same thing, trying to cut costs to increase profits. You can't keep telling people who are obviously saying "well, it's not enough" that "but it is enough" because all it says to them is you're not actually listening.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
But there have been a ton of people that have been advocating passionately for Remain. That the EU has problems but it's easier to fix those problems from inside the system than outside the system. That if you genuinely care about fixing the problems of the working class Leave was the wrong choice.
I don't disagree with this at all. I believe I said as much. I'm not trying to defend the Brexit vote, or the racism, or the choices, but rather I'm saying all those things didn't happen in a vacuum. The media does influence the electorate, and while I know UK media tends to be better than their American counterparts, a good example of the failure here in the US is the fucking non-stop Trump coverage. Same thing happened with Sarah Palin in 08. People couldn't stand this person, but because they couldn't stand them, they wanted to know what stupid shit they were up to. Because of that, the media focused on them, even though there were actually far more important things going on, both then and now. Now, it has become worse, because now Trump actually is the candidate.
You know, maybe, just maybe if Trump hadn't been plastered all over the media, we wouldn't be stuck with him, and maybe, just maybe, two decades of fear-mongering about Islamic terrorism has come home to roost due to immigration fears, which Trump has been expertly exploiting (and I suspect the Leave group was, too), which in turn normalizes othering, and thus makes racist undertones more common, and thus viewed as more "normal."
Part of understanding these people is to be able to communicate with them, explain to them why Remain matters. It feels like this was unable to be articulated very well (obviously, since Leave won), which leads me to believe, especially with a lot of the abject shaming of everyone who voted leave, that the problem lies, once again, in not actually understanding where these feelings of animosity, lack of democracy, and racism are really stemming from, instead of just writing people off as bigots automatically. If you walk into the conversation thinking "God this fucking bigot," you're not likely going to be able to communicate your position to this person effectively. The endless shaming (even in this thread) of the Leave voters as "petulant children" and the like is immediately deciding to not understand how any of this happened, historically, and thus is absolutely making a choice to ignore the historical lesson and try to make solutions as though this all happened in a vacuum.
Nothing ever happens in a vacuum. Ignoring the factors leading up to this vote is fucking perilous. Ignoring that the political, business and media elite have set the stage for this situation over decades means you will never be able to understand where to begin with these people.
Solidarity is what the left should be looking for but the politics of division and othering are apparently good for page hits.
I agree, solidarity is where things need to be at, but if we can't learn to listen to and understand things that contributed to getting us where we are now, then how can we ever make solidarity with the people who voted for Leave?
Racists, while shit, are still humans, and being super dismissive of how they got that way or how to change their mind is just asking for more horseshit just like this. Because obviously what we have been doing is not working.
Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
You want solidarity, but you're really dismissive of these people. They are British citizens, no matter how dumb their fucking choice was. You're ranting about a minority of leftists ostensibly "aligning" with them (nevermind a vote as big as Brexit definitely leaves people room to have their own leftist reasons to vote for it, and they have a right to do that, and it doesn't mean they're "aligning" with anybody), but you don't seem like you actually want solidarity with the majority of people who voted Leave. You really want solidarity? Learn to fucking talk to the racists and shut down the bullshit before it comes to this. Understanding the history of how this happened and understanding these people is imperative to that, it isn't saying this is a triumph against elites.
Leave won the vote. Maybe you should be more concerned with them than complaining about the other leftists who are trying to point out that maybe you should pay attention to these people's concerns and find ways to educate them if you want shit like this not to happen. Because obviously nobody managed to that before the fucking vote.
---
Beholder says it more succinctly than I ever could:
Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."
Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting them, blaming them, or talking down to them.
And you wan't them to find solidarity with elites who keep telling them that they're asking too much, and they should be happy with all the protections that the EU provides them? I mean, I'm jealous of EU protections, as an American citizen, but business all over the world is doing the same thing, trying to cut costs to increase profits. You can't keep telling people who are obviously saying "well, it's not enough" that "but it is enough" because all it says to them is you're not actually listening.
posted by deadaluspark at 1:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument.
And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.
posted by ocschwar at 1:06 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.
What are you basing this conclusion on?
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
What are you basing this conclusion on?
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.
What are you basing this conclusion on?
1. Decades of peace prior to evert recent step in the formation of the "ever closer union."
2. EU leaders yammering about "ever closer union" all through that time, indicating they saw it as an end in itself.
posted by ocschwar at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
What are you basing this conclusion on?
1. Decades of peace prior to evert recent step in the formation of the "ever closer union."
2. EU leaders yammering about "ever closer union" all through that time, indicating they saw it as an end in itself.
posted by ocschwar at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
And a tenuous one. The European Common Market was integrated enough to ensure the peace decades ago. Every step towards further integration since then was not needed for that purpose and should not cite that purpose as its reason.
Free movement of labour was part of the original ECSC treaty, back in 1951: "The member States bind themselves to renounce any restriction based on nationality against the employment in the coal and steel industries of workers of proven qualifications for such industries who possess the nationality of one of the member States."
posted by effbot at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Free movement of labour was part of the original ECSC treaty, back in 1951: "The member States bind themselves to renounce any restriction based on nationality against the employment in the coal and steel industries of workers of proven qualifications for such industries who possess the nationality of one of the member States."
posted by effbot at 1:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Instead of calling this voter a racist, make them a convincing argument that globalism is good for their community in spite of the fact that every sign points to it being a capitalist scam, and bonus points if it can be done without insulting or blaming them.
The bosses don't love foreign workers, the bosses love desperate workers. The best thing to do for workers everywhere is to write and then enforce wage, working condition and benefit legislation such that it is no longer cheaper to hire foreign workers. Pushing legislation so that businesses on the economic periphery can't screw their workers would help a bit, too, since people wouldn't be desperate enough to come and live among the type of individual who beats Polish grandfathers unconscious in the street.
If people are desperate and miserable enough to migrate, the point is to stop them being desperate and miserable, not just kick them out with a big "well, I've got mine and I'm the authentic proletariat". If it's someone who doesn't know better saying that, then fine, but when it's someone on the left who should know a bit about international solidarity and the likelihood of socialism in one country, shame is what I say.
And didn't we have a bit in the last thread showing that the wage loss of uneducated workers due to foreign workers was something like 1% over eight years since the financial crisis in any case? And that wage loss due to various government policies and large world events far, far outstrips wage loss due to foreign workers?
posted by Frowner at 1:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [65 favorites]
The bosses don't love foreign workers, the bosses love desperate workers. The best thing to do for workers everywhere is to write and then enforce wage, working condition and benefit legislation such that it is no longer cheaper to hire foreign workers. Pushing legislation so that businesses on the economic periphery can't screw their workers would help a bit, too, since people wouldn't be desperate enough to come and live among the type of individual who beats Polish grandfathers unconscious in the street.
If people are desperate and miserable enough to migrate, the point is to stop them being desperate and miserable, not just kick them out with a big "well, I've got mine and I'm the authentic proletariat". If it's someone who doesn't know better saying that, then fine, but when it's someone on the left who should know a bit about international solidarity and the likelihood of socialism in one country, shame is what I say.
And didn't we have a bit in the last thread showing that the wage loss of uneducated workers due to foreign workers was something like 1% over eight years since the financial crisis in any case? And that wage loss due to various government policies and large world events far, far outstrips wage loss due to foreign workers?
posted by Frowner at 1:12 PM on June 27, 2016 [65 favorites]
Yeah, some of the details are a mess, but is the broader point incorrect, that English could in theory cease to be an official language of the EU?
The present arrangement of "official languages" is supposed to recognise the linguistic diversity of the EU, but it's extremely expensive since all official documents have to be translated into all 24 languages. When Ireland joined the EEC, English and Danish were added to the pre-existing Dutch, French, German and Italian to give 6 official languages, which was comparatively manageable. Irish officials worked away happily with that, but with more enlargements a small minority of over-enthusiastic Irish speakers here kept agitating to get Irish added, and the government finally went looking for this about ten years ago, and got Irish added in 2007. This was basically a sop to a few voters here, but was extremely unpopular in Brussels, since (as I said above) all official documents are supposed to be translated. So, for a serious expense, translators had to be found to translate endless documents which everyone here was perfectly capable of reading in English anyway. They had a derogation for a long time, since they had difficulty finding translators.
(Maybe the Parliament spokesperson was getting in a dig at the Irish for that mess a few years ago?)
Anyway, apart from the 24 official languages (for official documents), the Commission normally works in meetings in just three languages, French, English and German. One side effect of the Scandinavian and other countries joining was that the Francophones' noses were a bit out of joint as the newer entrants mostly preferred to use English. I can't see that changing now.
posted by Azara at 1:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The present arrangement of "official languages" is supposed to recognise the linguistic diversity of the EU, but it's extremely expensive since all official documents have to be translated into all 24 languages. When Ireland joined the EEC, English and Danish were added to the pre-existing Dutch, French, German and Italian to give 6 official languages, which was comparatively manageable. Irish officials worked away happily with that, but with more enlargements a small minority of over-enthusiastic Irish speakers here kept agitating to get Irish added, and the government finally went looking for this about ten years ago, and got Irish added in 2007. This was basically a sop to a few voters here, but was extremely unpopular in Brussels, since (as I said above) all official documents are supposed to be translated. So, for a serious expense, translators had to be found to translate endless documents which everyone here was perfectly capable of reading in English anyway. They had a derogation for a long time, since they had difficulty finding translators.
(Maybe the Parliament spokesperson was getting in a dig at the Irish for that mess a few years ago?)
Anyway, apart from the 24 official languages (for official documents), the Commission normally works in meetings in just three languages, French, English and German. One side effect of the Scandinavian and other countries joining was that the Francophones' noses were a bit out of joint as the newer entrants mostly preferred to use English. I can't see that changing now.
posted by Azara at 1:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
> Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?
They currently have Charles gagged in a wardrobe. I doubt that's uncommon.
posted by vbfg at 1:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
They currently have Charles gagged in a wardrobe. I doubt that's uncommon.
posted by vbfg at 1:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Should the monarchy be doing something? Or should they stay out of all politics even when their country is going to pieces around them?
First they should arrange for the Polish assault victims to finish their recovery and rehab in an apartment in Buckingham Palace.
posted by ocschwar at 1:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
First they should arrange for the Polish assault victims to finish their recovery and rehab in an apartment in Buckingham Palace.
posted by ocschwar at 1:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
If the UK government came out and said that they had no intention of triggering Article 50 at this time, then the EU would have no recourse and couldn't pull the UK opt-outs without UK consent? Even excluding the UK from summits before Article 50 is triggered seems dodgy to me as the UK is still an EU member, paying its dues and enacting EU directives until further notice.
Has Juncker's interview been quoted yet? The full thing is worth the read.
Here in Brussels, we did everything to accommodate David Cameron's concerns. My collaborators and I personally spent countless days and nights negotiating an agreement that was fair toward the United Kingdom and toward the other 27 Member States. I was then very surprised to see that this settlement played no role whatsoever in the campaign in the United Kingdom.
At the same time it is hardly surprising. If someone complains about Europe from Monday to Saturday then nobody is going to believe him on Sunday when he says he is a convinced European.
posted by infini at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Has Juncker's interview been quoted yet? The full thing is worth the read.
Here in Brussels, we did everything to accommodate David Cameron's concerns. My collaborators and I personally spent countless days and nights negotiating an agreement that was fair toward the United Kingdom and toward the other 27 Member States. I was then very surprised to see that this settlement played no role whatsoever in the campaign in the United Kingdom.
At the same time it is hardly surprising. If someone complains about Europe from Monday to Saturday then nobody is going to believe him on Sunday when he says he is a convinced European.
posted by infini at 1:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
While Persuasion seems fruitless (and some see an inevitable Decline and Fall while others have Great Expectations), only time will reveal The Way We Live Now. Have the Brexiters created a Frankenstein with a Heart of Darkness, or can Windsor Castle reignite The Light that Failed?
Either way, we're Through the Looking Glass.
posted by stolyarova at 1:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Either way, we're Through the Looking Glass.
posted by stolyarova at 1:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Daily Mirror 16 May
Nigel Farage the Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business.'
posted by adamvasco at 1:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nigel Farage the Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business.'
posted by adamvasco at 1:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fitch just followed S&P off the cliff and downgraded from AA+ to AA.
posted by Talez at 1:31 PM on June 27, 2016
posted by Talez at 1:31 PM on June 27, 2016
Excluding the UK from EU business at this point seems really iffy.
You are absolutely right. the UK will continue to be a legal member of the EU and have access to all the amenities as per the letter of the law until and unless Article 50 is invoked.
posted by infini at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2016
You are absolutely right. the UK will continue to be a legal member of the EU and have access to all the amenities as per the letter of the law until and unless Article 50 is invoked.
posted by infini at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2016
Was Boris really expecting Cameron to trigger Article 50? That he would walk in after it was done and then guide them to a Norway type solution?
If so... khaled_you_played_yourself.gif
posted by PenDevil at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
If so... khaled_you_played_yourself.gif
posted by PenDevil at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fitch just followed S&P off the cliff and downgraded from AA+ to AA.
Not sure they're going off a cliff so much as describing the action of two people struggling for the controls of a car as it crashes through the guardrail.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not sure they're going off a cliff so much as describing the action of two people struggling for the controls of a car as it crashes through the guardrail.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Abelian Grape: "No, the Guardian is mistaken: there is no (necessary) connection between the credit rating of the UK government and that of UK-based corporations."
I don't think a bank can have a credit rating that's higher than the sovereign.
posted by chavenet at 1:45 PM on June 27, 2016
I don't think a bank can have a credit rating that's higher than the sovereign.
posted by chavenet at 1:45 PM on June 27, 2016
Doing something, no. Trying to reassert somekind of actual monarchical control of politics would just make this look like more of a desperate shambles.
Well, since nobody else seems up for running the country, what's the harm in letting the Queen have a go at just governing by decree for a while? It's not like she can fuck things up any worse than Cameron did.
Or Nicola Sturgeon could be the PM, with a mandate to wind the whole Union thing down in an orderly way, given that she seems to be the only person in the country with an actual plan for how to manage things right now.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, since nobody else seems up for running the country, what's the harm in letting the Queen have a go at just governing by decree for a while? It's not like she can fuck things up any worse than Cameron did.
Or Nicola Sturgeon could be the PM, with a mandate to wind the whole Union thing down in an orderly way, given that she seems to be the only person in the country with an actual plan for how to manage things right now.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Given the economic shocks already felt, being a legal member and winning friends and influence are two different things entirely. Sort of like being legally married after the mistress has come home to show you her new diamond necklace bought with the second mortgage.
posted by infini at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Aaaaand Iceland just brexited England out of the Euro
posted by chavenet at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
Another Brexit: England v Iceland: 1 - 2 at full time.
British commentator almost crying, called it the most abject failure he'd ever experienced. Everything's relative, I guess.
(Ok, Wales is still in the tournament. As is Poland.)
posted by effbot at 1:54 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
British commentator almost crying, called it the most abject failure he'd ever experienced. Everything's relative, I guess.
(Ok, Wales is still in the tournament. As is Poland.)
posted by effbot at 1:54 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Game score isn't final until Iceland authorizes Article 50.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [46 favorites]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [46 favorites]
Just FYI the full Vote Leave campaign website has been preserved at The Internet Archive https://archive.org Hurray for archivists!
posted by melisande at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by melisande at 1:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
Aaaaand Iceland just brexited England out of the Euro
This comment had me thoroughly confused until I realised you don't mean the currency. No one calls it the Euro here, because that's what we call our currency.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2016
This comment had me thoroughly confused until I realised you don't mean the currency. No one calls it the Euro here, because that's what we call our currency.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2016
Pounded in the Goal by Iceland?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Now Iceland needs to join the EU just to rub it in
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Diamond-mining tycoon and major ‘Leave’ campaign donor Arron Banks has gone on a social media rampage against political journalists connecting incidents of racial abuse with the Brexit vote.
Banks, who is said to have donated up to £6.5 million (about US$8.5 million) to the Brexit campaign, is closely involved in the inner circle of the movement’s furthest right-wing and has been criticised for describing alleged increases in hate crime after the Brexit vote as "media hysteria"
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016
Banks, who is said to have donated up to £6.5 million (about US$8.5 million) to the Brexit campaign, is closely involved in the inner circle of the movement’s furthest right-wing and has been criticised for describing alleged increases in hate crime after the Brexit vote as "media hysteria"
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016
I don't think a bank can have a credit rating that's higher than the sovereign.
As far as I can tell, the credit rating of a bank is not constrained by the credit rating of the country in which it is based in theory, but, in practice, a bank is unlikely to be more creditworthy than the country in which it is based. According to this document issued by Standard and Poor's:
As far as I can tell, the credit rating of a bank is not constrained by the credit rating of the country in which it is based in theory, but, in practice, a bank is unlikely to be more creditworthy than the country in which it is based. According to this document issued by Standard and Poor's:
Standard & Poor's long ago rejected the notion of constraining all ratings at the level of the sovereign rating. Evidence from the past 20 years of sovereign crises and defaults supports two key notions that are reconfirmed in our criteria proposal: (1) A sovereign default does not imply that every entity in the country will default, and (2) The economic stress that historically accompanies a sovereign default would be considered severe and lead to a sharp increase in non-sovereign defaults.posted by Abelian Grape at 2:07 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would have been supporting Wales in the football now that Ireland (North and South) are out. But after Brexit I can't. And maybe that's the saddest outcome of all.
posted by billiebee at 2:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by billiebee at 2:08 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can we petition to have a do-over?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are a variety of links to left wing pundits in the old thread who are going with the "well serves you right for ignoring the problems of the chavs you posh twits" sort of narrative. I don't know that it is indicative of the majority of pundits on the left many of which seem to be aligning with centrist "elites" in going "Oh shit what have we done".
But it seems common enough to be annoying, like they are trying to provide moral cover for the Left Leavers and trying to refute the narrative that Leave was primarily motivated by xenophobic racism.
Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
The emboldening of racists was the most foreseeable outcome of a successful Brexit vote. Leave voters who aren't unapologetic racists, themselves, had no problem risking the happiness and safety of the immigrants and minorities in their community. They looked into the face of xenophobia and shrugged. Now, they tell us about their intentions and their anti-racist stances, like they matter. Meanwhile the emboldened racists are busily making life miserable for anyone with an accent or skin tone they don't like.
The lesson? Racism is a cancer, not a cold. You do not get better by waiting for it to go away on its own.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 2:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [51 favorites]
But it seems common enough to be annoying, like they are trying to provide moral cover for the Left Leavers and trying to refute the narrative that Leave was primarily motivated by xenophobic racism.
Aligning yourself with the aims of racists no matter how noble your ends is still aligning yourself with racists.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you
The emboldening of racists was the most foreseeable outcome of a successful Brexit vote. Leave voters who aren't unapologetic racists, themselves, had no problem risking the happiness and safety of the immigrants and minorities in their community. They looked into the face of xenophobia and shrugged. Now, they tell us about their intentions and their anti-racist stances, like they matter. Meanwhile the emboldened racists are busily making life miserable for anyone with an accent or skin tone they don't like.
The lesson? Racism is a cancer, not a cold. You do not get better by waiting for it to go away on its own.
posted by CatastropheWaitress at 2:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [51 favorites]
British commentator almost crying, called it the most abject failure he'd ever experienced.
He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron. One of them also blamed Iceland's second goal on Smalling not being used to long throw-ins and that Iceland's style of play was stuck in the 80s.
posted by biffa at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron. One of them also blamed Iceland's second goal on Smalling not being used to long throw-ins and that Iceland's style of play was stuck in the 80s.
posted by biffa at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
"In our exclusive poll, half (48%) of British adults say that they are happy with the result, with two in five (43%) saying they are unhappy with the outcome."
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hodgson resigns, leaving triggering Article 50 to the next manager.
posted by effbot at 2:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by effbot at 2:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates: ""In our exclusive poll, half (48%) of British adults say that they are happy with the result, with two in five (43%) saying they are unhappy with the outcome.""
They should take a poll on the football result!
posted by chavenet at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
They should take a poll on the football result!
posted by chavenet at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Merkel Hollande and Renzi stressed that there were "three areas on which collaboration was crucial: defense and security; the economy; and getting young people into jobs."
Looking at the reference point for defence and security, that an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence. Ireland and Austria's neutrality consigned to the history books.
posted by stonepharisee at 2:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Looking at the reference point for defence and security, that an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence. Ireland and Austria's neutrality consigned to the history books.
posted by stonepharisee at 2:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron.
Wait until the global markets respond tomorrow.
Maybe the UK banking industry could move to Iceland?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait until the global markets respond tomorrow.
Maybe the UK banking industry could move to Iceland?
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wow, I must be dense, but I totally missed this piece by Nick Clegg, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats:
What you will wake up to if we vote to Leave…
Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson can’t agree among themselves what life outside the EU looks like...
There simply aren’t enough trade negotiators in Whitehall, for instance, with the expertise to renegotiate 50 or so international trade accords...
Overseas investors take fright; money flows out of the country; our credit rating is slashed...
There’s that faintly queasy feeling you get when you see Donald Trump on the TV, visiting the UK on Friday, declaring his joy at the Brexit vote...
That was published on June 22nd, and wow, he *nailed* it.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
What you will wake up to if we vote to Leave…
Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson can’t agree among themselves what life outside the EU looks like...
There simply aren’t enough trade negotiators in Whitehall, for instance, with the expertise to renegotiate 50 or so international trade accords...
Overseas investors take fright; money flows out of the country; our credit rating is slashed...
There’s that faintly queasy feeling you get when you see Donald Trump on the TV, visiting the UK on Friday, declaring his joy at the Brexit vote...
That was published on June 22nd, and wow, he *nailed* it.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
"He also said it might overshadow the other events of the week, so let's assume he's a moron. "
He is an _English football commentator_ - do you need any additional evidence?
posted by MessageInABottle at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
He is an _English football commentator_ - do you need any additional evidence?
posted by MessageInABottle at 2:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe the UK banking industry to move to Iceland?
If only. Iceland puts bankers in jail.
posted by skybluepink at 2:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
If only. Iceland puts bankers in jail.
posted by skybluepink at 2:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
No one calls it the Euro here, because that's what we call our currency.
To be fair, I don't know anyone here in Poundland who calls it that, either. It's The Euros.
posted by ambrosen at 2:26 PM on June 27, 2016
To be fair, I don't know anyone here in Poundland who calls it that, either. It's The Euros.
posted by ambrosen at 2:26 PM on June 27, 2016
I totally missed this piece by Nick Clegg, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats
That just makes me more mad. If he hadn't shackled himself to Cameron back when the Lib Dems were briefly relevent they might have been the one definite Remain voice.
posted by billiebee at 2:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
That just makes me more mad. If he hadn't shackled himself to Cameron back when the Lib Dems were briefly relevent they might have been the one definite Remain voice.
posted by billiebee at 2:28 PM on June 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is the Lib Dem's fault for enabling the tory ascendancy ANYWAY.
posted by lalochezia at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
My fave football meme of the evening.
Mine.
posted by karayel at 2:38 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mine.
posted by karayel at 2:38 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Brexit: why Britain left the EU, explained with a simple cartoon
What the fuck. What the fuck was that.
That’s my reaction in a nutshell, but for other reasons - it’s their annoying dumbed-down style bordering on insulting with a ton of selective bias sneaked in under the guise of simplicity. Right from that grand statement of intent at the start that you don’t need to follow the "many twists and turns in British politics that have led to this particular moment" to understand everything about the situation since the creation of the EU, no less! Why the EU exists: explained with 2 pictures and 240 words! I could rant on and on but one more thing: that cartoon with the Italian about to jump on to Britain’s ship and saying "I’m coming to your country because there are no jobs left in mine!" - that’s one switch away from "they’re all coming here to our country to take our jobs!". That is how you explain "tensions about immigration"? By the end I was so annoyed I was imagining a touch of gloating in that final paragraph about how it’s a "big deal" and "could be the start of something bigger" like oh, "the disintegration of Europe". But that’s unfair - I guess that’s just their way of closing on a helpful, explanatory note.
No judgement on the post here and the other links, by all means. But it’s baffling to me that these types of Vox pieces should be considered as serious reference material on international matters at least.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:39 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
What the fuck. What the fuck was that.
That’s my reaction in a nutshell, but for other reasons - it’s their annoying dumbed-down style bordering on insulting with a ton of selective bias sneaked in under the guise of simplicity. Right from that grand statement of intent at the start that you don’t need to follow the "many twists and turns in British politics that have led to this particular moment" to understand everything about the situation since the creation of the EU, no less! Why the EU exists: explained with 2 pictures and 240 words! I could rant on and on but one more thing: that cartoon with the Italian about to jump on to Britain’s ship and saying "I’m coming to your country because there are no jobs left in mine!" - that’s one switch away from "they’re all coming here to our country to take our jobs!". That is how you explain "tensions about immigration"? By the end I was so annoyed I was imagining a touch of gloating in that final paragraph about how it’s a "big deal" and "could be the start of something bigger" like oh, "the disintegration of Europe". But that’s unfair - I guess that’s just their way of closing on a helpful, explanatory note.
No judgement on the post here and the other links, by all means. But it’s baffling to me that these types of Vox pieces should be considered as serious reference material on international matters at least.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:39 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
→ The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team
Yeah, but that referendum was non-binding too.
What we need is the Ghost of Robin Day to interview all of the suspects — Cameron, Johnson, Farage, “Pob” Gove — and harangue them with the single question: “Did you, in fact, ever have the slightest clue what you were doing?”
posted by scruss at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but that referendum was non-binding too.
What we need is the Ghost of Robin Day to interview all of the suspects — Cameron, Johnson, Farage, “Pob” Gove — and harangue them with the single question: “Did you, in fact, ever have the slightest clue what you were doing?”
posted by scruss at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
John Oliver went for understated in his reaction to the match.
posted by TwoStride at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, since nobody else seems up for running the country, what's the harm in letting the Queen have a go at just governing by decree for a while? It's not like she can fuck things up any worse than Cameron did.
First they should arrange for the Polish assault victims to finish their recovery and rehab in an apartment in Buckingham Palace.
There may be something there in terms of a role for the Royals. I don't think trying to meddle in the Article 50 stuff is a good idea but perhaps the Queen could come out and give a stern speech to the effect of "British subjects, especially those who voted to Leave because of concerns that British values were being undermined , are hereby reminded that foreign residents are under the direct protection of the Government and the Crown itself, and verbal or physical attacks on them are a disgrace to our country, and to Us," etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
First they should arrange for the Polish assault victims to finish their recovery and rehab in an apartment in Buckingham Palace.
There may be something there in terms of a role for the Royals. I don't think trying to meddle in the Article 50 stuff is a good idea but perhaps the Queen could come out and give a stern speech to the effect of "British subjects, especially those who voted to Leave because of concerns that British values were being undermined , are hereby reminded that foreign residents are under the direct protection of the Government and the Crown itself, and verbal or physical attacks on them are a disgrace to our country, and to Us," etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:43 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
At least they can't leave the Commonwealth, ironically the source of so many foreign looking Brits.
posted by infini at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The irony about Clegg shackling himself to the Tories back in 2010 was that of course we saw pretty much immediately in 2015 how much the Lib Dems had proven to be a moderating influence on Cameron's government. Of course it was one of those situations where it would've been far better had all the Tory cards on the table straight away.
posted by ambrosen at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Thousands of people have marched on Parliament Square to express support for Jeremy Corbyn.
posted by billiebee at 2:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 2:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence
There's a majority for that among EU voters, according to the Eurobarometer; 53% are in favour, 39% are opposed and 8% don't know.
(Twenty-one states are for, strongest in Belgium (73%), Lithuania (68%), the Netherlands (68%), Romania (68%), and Luxembourg (64%). Seven against, strongest in Sweden (64%), the United Kingdom (58%), Ireland (55%), Austria (53%) and Cyprus (53%). Of course, if UK leaves, the overall numbers will change a bit.)
Ireland and Austria's neutrality consigned to the history books.
Well, they kind of already gave up their neutrality by joining, as did Finland, Malta, and Sweden.
posted by effbot at 2:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a majority for that among EU voters, according to the Eurobarometer; 53% are in favour, 39% are opposed and 8% don't know.
(Twenty-one states are for, strongest in Belgium (73%), Lithuania (68%), the Netherlands (68%), Romania (68%), and Luxembourg (64%). Seven against, strongest in Sweden (64%), the United Kingdom (58%), Ireland (55%), Austria (53%) and Cyprus (53%). Of course, if UK leaves, the overall numbers will change a bit.)
Ireland and Austria's neutrality consigned to the history books.
Well, they kind of already gave up their neutrality by joining, as did Finland, Malta, and Sweden.
posted by effbot at 2:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have to say that spending the last three days reading A LOT about the British political system and party infighting has made me appreciate the American two party system in a way I thought was impossible.
posted by threeturtles at 2:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by threeturtles at 2:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
ROY. THE BREXIT VOTE WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU.
On a more serious note. Nick Clegg, solid and intelligent politician. Of course, absolute error to go into coalition with the Tories. Definitely didn't change the way they did anything - you can tell by the way they've kept doing exactly the same things as when they were in coalition. Not like they've nose dived the country into the ground for an internal feud or anything.
Might be a bit of a bitter Lib Dem.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:57 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
On a more serious note. Nick Clegg, solid and intelligent politician. Of course, absolute error to go into coalition with the Tories. Definitely didn't change the way they did anything - you can tell by the way they've kept doing exactly the same things as when they were in coalition. Not like they've nose dived the country into the ground for an internal feud or anything.
Might be a bit of a bitter Lib Dem.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:57 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Formal notice at this level would have to be written by someone authorized in the UK government, and acknowledged as received by the EU. 'I heard you said ...' isn't enough."
Not just an official authorized formal notice, but one that is legally valid. Here's the first line of Article 50, which is very clear:
Regardless of what anyone is saying, Article 50 hasn't been triggered merely by the referendum result, by public discussion of the referendum result, nor by Cameron discussing it at the upcoming meeting. It shouldn't even be triggered by a mere letter from the government, although in less extraordinary and contested times that probably would have sufficed. Now, it probably will not because any interested party could object that the "constitutional requirements" were not met -- in this context, in these conditions, someone assuredly will object. Not the least because UK legal experts have already argued that it requires an Act of Parliament.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:01 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not just an official authorized formal notice, but one that is legally valid. Here's the first line of Article 50, which is very clear:
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.Something like a formal intent to withdraw from the EU could not be merely within the purview of the PM. It must be explicitly voted by Parliament. It's hard to imagine many things that are of greater political magnitude, anything short of this would be and will be argued to be unlawful and the EU lawyers will certainly agree.
Regardless of what anyone is saying, Article 50 hasn't been triggered merely by the referendum result, by public discussion of the referendum result, nor by Cameron discussing it at the upcoming meeting. It shouldn't even be triggered by a mere letter from the government, although in less extraordinary and contested times that probably would have sufficed. Now, it probably will not because any interested party could object that the "constitutional requirements" were not met -- in this context, in these conditions, someone assuredly will object. Not the least because UK legal experts have already argued that it requires an Act of Parliament.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:01 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted; let's not have a fight about whether all people outside London think the same way, or about people's usernames.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:02 PM on June 27, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:02 PM on June 27, 2016
This map of results opened my eyes to the real challenge of the Brexit vote.
posted by infini at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Thousands of people have marched on Parliament Square to express support for Jeremy Corbyn."
This doesn't seem quite right to me. If you're Lexit, then you have the problem that supposedly Corbyn supported and voted opposite your preference and if Brexit is that important to you, you'd then be concerned about Corbyn's judgment. Alternately, if you are a leftist who prefers Remain, then you have the problem that you probably agree that the practical results of Brexit are damaging to Britain's least advantaged and therefore you ought to have concerns about Corbyn's judgment, given his tepid commitment to Remain.
I understand the desire to fight against the Blairites and, yeah, a change in leadership that moves Labour rightward would be worse, but then is the argument that there's no one viable on the left of the party? I guess that could be the case, which is a pity, and therefore sticking with Corbyn is the lesser of two evils.
Still, it seems to me that given the magnitude of the historic importance of this referendum, the high stakes involved, it's hard to understand why a party wouldn't sack a leader who failed to achieve a hugely important result that the majority of the party favored and which he supposedly (but perhaps not really) favored, (And that parenthetical case is even worse.)
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
This doesn't seem quite right to me. If you're Lexit, then you have the problem that supposedly Corbyn supported and voted opposite your preference and if Brexit is that important to you, you'd then be concerned about Corbyn's judgment. Alternately, if you are a leftist who prefers Remain, then you have the problem that you probably agree that the practical results of Brexit are damaging to Britain's least advantaged and therefore you ought to have concerns about Corbyn's judgment, given his tepid commitment to Remain.
I understand the desire to fight against the Blairites and, yeah, a change in leadership that moves Labour rightward would be worse, but then is the argument that there's no one viable on the left of the party? I guess that could be the case, which is a pity, and therefore sticking with Corbyn is the lesser of two evils.
Still, it seems to me that given the magnitude of the historic importance of this referendum, the high stakes involved, it's hard to understand why a party wouldn't sack a leader who failed to achieve a hugely important result that the majority of the party favored and which he supposedly (but perhaps not really) favored, (And that parenthetical case is even worse.)
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
an EU army will be a fairly rapid consequence
Count me out.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Count me out.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
i think the general message is that it needs to be a Blairite or they'll trash the party. Of course, the party will still be trashed if they get their way, but at least a Blairite will be on top of the trash heap.
posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Over the past few days, thousands have vented on social media. “I’m never giving up my seat on the train for an old person again,” read one tweet.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:20 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:20 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
general message is that it needs to be a Blairite
I think the general message is that it needs to be someone who can lead a credible opposition in a general election (which Corbyn probably can't); it's a bit of a stretch to call a lot of the MPs calling on Corbyn to resign and telling him his position is utenable "Blairite".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think the general message is that it needs to be someone who can lead a credible opposition in a general election (which Corbyn probably can't); it's a bit of a stretch to call a lot of the MPs calling on Corbyn to resign and telling him his position is utenable "Blairite".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I went from Cornwall to London and back last week and saw lots of Vote Leave posters on farmland bordering the rail track.
(digression: farmland voters are notoriously regressive, based upon the sea of solid blue Conservative lawn signs anywhere outside of city limits that I'd seen in the recent Canadian federal election.)
posted by ovvl at 3:24 PM on June 27, 2016
(digression: farmland voters are notoriously regressive, based upon the sea of solid blue Conservative lawn signs anywhere outside of city limits that I'd seen in the recent Canadian federal election.)
posted by ovvl at 3:24 PM on June 27, 2016
From the sidebar of one of the articles linked above
The Lib Dems have gained a new member every minute since Brexit vote
posted by infini at 3:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Lib Dems have gained a new member every minute since Brexit vote
posted by infini at 3:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
more via@edwardnh!
- England vs. Iceland.
- Wayne Rooney's highlights
- Joe Hart trying to stop Icleand from scoring
- It's over. England have exited Europe for the second time in 4 days.
- An Englishman, a Scotsman & an Irishman go to a bar. They all had to leave because the Englishman wanted to go.
- What's so great about memes is their versatility.
Article 50...requires an Act of Parliament
Which means it also needs passage by the House of Lords and royal assent from the Queen, right?
Not that either would realistically veto such a bill but they would still have to officially endorse it.
posted by rocket88 at 3:29 PM on June 27, 2016
Which means it also needs passage by the House of Lords and royal assent from the Queen, right?
Not that either would realistically veto such a bill but they would still have to officially endorse it.
posted by rocket88 at 3:29 PM on June 27, 2016
Stormont looks like it will be fun and games. First Minister Arlene Foster is leading a region which voted to stay, even though she and her party (DUP) were in the Leave camp. Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin) voted to Remain, but would benefit from the repercussions of Scotland voting for independence. The UUP are pointing at the DUP for "pressing the button" on events that could lead to the destabilisation of the Union. Foster and McGuinness will both be in negotiations around NI's future under Brexit and - as always - coming at it from opposite sides.
posted by billiebee at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 3:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Over the past few days, thousands have vented on social media. “I’m never giving up my seat on the train for an old person again,” read one tweet.
Given that only about 1 in 3 young people apparently bothered to vote I'm not sure I'd want their seat, I don't know that I'd trust them to wipe their own arses.
posted by biffa at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Given that only about 1 in 3 young people apparently bothered to vote I'm not sure I'd want their seat, I don't know that I'd trust them to wipe their own arses.
posted by biffa at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Could you make the argument Corbyn is trying to hijack the Labour Party? Most if not all of his support comes from Momentum and new signups, both groups which are affiliated with traditional Labour. Wouldn't the best thing for Corbyn to do is step down and then stand for re-election as the head of Labour in a leadership campaign? It's like the purpose is to root out the PLP entirely.
posted by My Dad at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2016
posted by My Dad at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2016
This doesn't seem quite right to me.
Well, plenty of folks on Twitter say the place was full of communists (Socialist Workers Party, Spartacists, Alliance for Workers' Liberty, etc.), and not many signs of Labour folks.
posted by effbot at 3:33 PM on June 27, 2016
Well, plenty of folks on Twitter say the place was full of communists (Socialist Workers Party, Spartacists, Alliance for Workers' Liberty, etc.), and not many signs of Labour folks.
posted by effbot at 3:33 PM on June 27, 2016
My Dad, I don't know how anyone could be said to hijack a party he/she/they is formally the head of.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
My Dad, have you ever heard of a thing called the British trade unions?
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ireland isn't the only non-UK EU state to have English as an official language. Malta does, alongside Maltese, and all Maltese are fluent, with the exception of some rural Gozitans. English is also the default business language of larger European companies, with many conducting all their senior management communications in it, so it's not going away.
But as most Mefites will be aware, English language does not equate to England.
As for the Royals - I'm just hoping the Queen doesn't kark it in the near future (Phil is much more likely, but he's the beloved comedy sidekick - a sad role for an intelligent, capable, rational and sci-tech engaged chap, but the benefits aren't bad).
I am, despite fifty years on this godforsaken rock, an incorrigible optimist. My best take on the long-term ramifications of this prize hoo-haw are that with the UK out of the picture and with the salutary lessons of not doing the social contract thing properly, the EU reforms and becomes a much more effective vehicle for its primary purposes - peace, justice, equality and progress. Some time later, following a devastating time in the wilderness, the UK comes back and our grandchildren get some of the benefits we have so blithely enjoyed.
Until then, though, it's going to be a bastard.
I have no words for Corbyn. I hoped he'd be a leader, but he isn't. Now, he could be the conscience of the party, but he won't be.
Things nobody's talking about: the BBC's charter renewal isn't done yet, so unless Top Gear really shapes up and they start popping out those Who eps sharpish, that too will be bloody. That mega-austerity budget may be on the light end of what's needed, as the country runs out of cash but good...
The whole 'can Article 50 be invoked without Parliamentary authorty' thing is a bit of a red herring. If Parliament said that it was not going to do it, then that's one thing - but at the moment, nobody's saying anything. If the EU27 decided to push the button by default, then perhaps - perhaps - a legal challenge might stop it, but a decent chunk of the UK pols would say 'Fair enough'.
At the level of national politics on which such things play out, then fiat is pretty much the way it goes.
posted by Devonian at 3:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
But as most Mefites will be aware, English language does not equate to England.
As for the Royals - I'm just hoping the Queen doesn't kark it in the near future (Phil is much more likely, but he's the beloved comedy sidekick - a sad role for an intelligent, capable, rational and sci-tech engaged chap, but the benefits aren't bad).
I am, despite fifty years on this godforsaken rock, an incorrigible optimist. My best take on the long-term ramifications of this prize hoo-haw are that with the UK out of the picture and with the salutary lessons of not doing the social contract thing properly, the EU reforms and becomes a much more effective vehicle for its primary purposes - peace, justice, equality and progress. Some time later, following a devastating time in the wilderness, the UK comes back and our grandchildren get some of the benefits we have so blithely enjoyed.
Until then, though, it's going to be a bastard.
I have no words for Corbyn. I hoped he'd be a leader, but he isn't. Now, he could be the conscience of the party, but he won't be.
Things nobody's talking about: the BBC's charter renewal isn't done yet, so unless Top Gear really shapes up and they start popping out those Who eps sharpish, that too will be bloody. That mega-austerity budget may be on the light end of what's needed, as the country runs out of cash but good...
The whole 'can Article 50 be invoked without Parliamentary authorty' thing is a bit of a red herring. If Parliament said that it was not going to do it, then that's one thing - but at the moment, nobody's saying anything. If the EU27 decided to push the button by default, then perhaps - perhaps - a legal challenge might stop it, but a decent chunk of the UK pols would say 'Fair enough'.
At the level of national politics on which such things play out, then fiat is pretty much the way it goes.
posted by Devonian at 3:35 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have no words for Corbyn. I hoped he'd be a leader, but he isn't. Now, he could be the conscience of the party, but he won't be.
He addressed a rally in Parliament Square earlier; not a word about the present crisis, referendum fallout, etc. Closest he got to mentioning it at all was referring to "recent instances of racist abuse" as "deplorable" (but not a word about the climate in which they occurred, and "referendum", "Brexit" unsaid). Not particularly impressive.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
He addressed a rally in Parliament Square earlier; not a word about the present crisis, referendum fallout, etc. Closest he got to mentioning it at all was referring to "recent instances of racist abuse" as "deplorable" (but not a word about the climate in which they occurred, and "referendum", "Brexit" unsaid). Not particularly impressive.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:42 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Asked today by Northern Ireland’s deputy first minister how she was,on the first day of a two-day royal visit, the Queen replied “well, I’m still alive anyway.” (video inside)
posted by zachlipton at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
"The fact that Europe hasn't been drawn into a massive worldwide conflict resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of people, most of whom would not be the elites of society. That's one argument."
We didn't have a war between 1950 and 1973 when we joined. There was no war between when the UK joined and Maastricht, when it was the old EEC. There was no war at any time even when large amounts of Europe were not part of the EEC.
I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?
Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."
"The bosses don't love foreign workers, the bosses love desperate workers. The best thing to do for workers everywhere is to write and then enforce wage, working condition and benefit legislation such that it is no longer cheaper to hire foreign workers."
This is not going to happen though. Have you worked anywhere in the UK with a mixed workforce? Here is what happens: during work, everyone works, but the Polish talk to one another in Polish, the Russians in Russian, the Czechs in Czech and so on. At break, the Polish sit together and talk in Polish the Russians in Russian, the British in English and so on. No-one is interested in joining together. Having a mixed workforce, especially one where some of the workers don't speak much or any English makes it much much harder to unionise and organise so we can do what you say. I worked somewhere, and at the induction the guy showed us the accident book and said "you can write in it in any language you like, I can get it translated." So they were aware that some staff (we were all agency) could not speak English and were fine with it. What I have just said, about organising and unionising is why.
"Merkel Hollande and Renzi stressed that there were "three areas on which collaboration was crucial: defense and security; the economy; and getting young people into jobs.""
Getting Young people into jobs? So what has all the co-operation achieved so far?
"After Empowering the 1% and Impoverishing Millions, IMF Admits Neoliberalism a Failure" (via this mefi thread which people should maybe revisit.)
FTA: "The fearless Argentine journalist Rodolfo Walsh, in a 1977 Open Letter to the Argentine Military Junta, denounced the oppression of that regime, a dictatorship which orchestrated the murder and disappearance of over 30,000 people.
“These events, which stir the conscience of the civilized world, are not, however, the greatest suffering inflicted on the Argentinean people, nor the worst violation for human rights which you have committed,” Walsh wrote of the torture and killing. “It is in the economic policy of this government where one discovers not only the explanation for the crimes, but a greater atrocity which punishes millions of human beings through planned misery. . . . You only have to walk around greater Buenos Aires for a few hours to check the speed with which such a policy transforms the city into a ‘shantytown’ of ten million people.”
This “planned misery,” as Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine vividly demonstrates, was the neoliberal agenda the IMF has pushed for decades.
And the IMF wants us to stay in the EU? Whose side do you think they are on? Where was it, Indonesia I think, where their policies caused unemployment to rise to 75%. So when they say "stay in the EU" do you really think they are saying that because they are concerned about the poor? Or are they on the side of the 1%? And how did the EU/ECB/IMF treat Greece and its people?
Re: Credit downgrade - Wow, such love for the credit agencies on here all of a sudden. Aren't these the same credit agencies that rated all that toxic CDO poison AAA and allowed it to be pushed through the banking systems of the world? And who benefitted from that? The poor of Europe who have seen services slashed, or the 1%? And now they are doing this? Hmmm, sorry if I seem a tad cynical here, but it seems to me that they do not give a shit about the poor and are all about empowering and enriching the rich.
Re: City of London - I am sure the city of London has special status, it is almost a tax haven in some ways. I am not an expert on this, but I am sure there are people on here who can explain exactly how it is. Are Paris and Berlin tax havens? Do they have special status like the city of London does?
"The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team"
When did this happen as they didn't even qualify for the Euros!
"ROY. THE BREXIT VOTE WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU."
That made me laugh on what has been a miserable night - England were fucking abysmal in the football, one of the worst performances I have ever seen.
posted by marienbad at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
We didn't have a war between 1950 and 1973 when we joined. There was no war between when the UK joined and Maastricht, when it was the old EEC. There was no war at any time even when large amounts of Europe were not part of the EEC.
I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?
Quote: "The bosses love foreign workers. They are non-union, cheap and pliable. The British people who used to do those jobs have not gone on to university, they have gone on the dole or worse. There is also an issue over the conditions that the foreign workers have to endure, and the housing situation in the UK is abysmal."
"The bosses don't love foreign workers, the bosses love desperate workers. The best thing to do for workers everywhere is to write and then enforce wage, working condition and benefit legislation such that it is no longer cheaper to hire foreign workers."
This is not going to happen though. Have you worked anywhere in the UK with a mixed workforce? Here is what happens: during work, everyone works, but the Polish talk to one another in Polish, the Russians in Russian, the Czechs in Czech and so on. At break, the Polish sit together and talk in Polish the Russians in Russian, the British in English and so on. No-one is interested in joining together. Having a mixed workforce, especially one where some of the workers don't speak much or any English makes it much much harder to unionise and organise so we can do what you say. I worked somewhere, and at the induction the guy showed us the accident book and said "you can write in it in any language you like, I can get it translated." So they were aware that some staff (we were all agency) could not speak English and were fine with it. What I have just said, about organising and unionising is why.
"Merkel Hollande and Renzi stressed that there were "three areas on which collaboration was crucial: defense and security; the economy; and getting young people into jobs.""
Getting Young people into jobs? So what has all the co-operation achieved so far?
"After Empowering the 1% and Impoverishing Millions, IMF Admits Neoliberalism a Failure" (via this mefi thread which people should maybe revisit.)
FTA: "The fearless Argentine journalist Rodolfo Walsh, in a 1977 Open Letter to the Argentine Military Junta, denounced the oppression of that regime, a dictatorship which orchestrated the murder and disappearance of over 30,000 people.
“These events, which stir the conscience of the civilized world, are not, however, the greatest suffering inflicted on the Argentinean people, nor the worst violation for human rights which you have committed,” Walsh wrote of the torture and killing. “It is in the economic policy of this government where one discovers not only the explanation for the crimes, but a greater atrocity which punishes millions of human beings through planned misery. . . . You only have to walk around greater Buenos Aires for a few hours to check the speed with which such a policy transforms the city into a ‘shantytown’ of ten million people.”
This “planned misery,” as Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine vividly demonstrates, was the neoliberal agenda the IMF has pushed for decades.
And the IMF wants us to stay in the EU? Whose side do you think they are on? Where was it, Indonesia I think, where their policies caused unemployment to rise to 75%. So when they say "stay in the EU" do you really think they are saying that because they are concerned about the poor? Or are they on the side of the 1%? And how did the EU/ECB/IMF treat Greece and its people?
Re: Credit downgrade - Wow, such love for the credit agencies on here all of a sudden. Aren't these the same credit agencies that rated all that toxic CDO poison AAA and allowed it to be pushed through the banking systems of the world? And who benefitted from that? The poor of Europe who have seen services slashed, or the 1%? And now they are doing this? Hmmm, sorry if I seem a tad cynical here, but it seems to me that they do not give a shit about the poor and are all about empowering and enriching the rich.
Re: City of London - I am sure the city of London has special status, it is almost a tax haven in some ways. I am not an expert on this, but I am sure there are people on here who can explain exactly how it is. Are Paris and Berlin tax havens? Do they have special status like the city of London does?
"The fact remains that Scotland voted overwhelmingly to have a non-rubbish football team"
When did this happen as they didn't even qualify for the Euros!
"ROY. THE BREXIT VOTE WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU."
That made me laugh on what has been a miserable night - England were fucking abysmal in the football, one of the worst performances I have ever seen.
posted by marienbad at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
He addressed a rally in Parliament Square earlier; not a word about the present crisis, referendum fallout, etc.
Interesting. The people I know who were in Parliament Square tonight found Corbyn inspiring, and they're more uncompromisingly left than I am. They were specifically pleased that he invoked "refugees, people living in poverty, housing, teachers, trade unions, mental health, gay people, homelessness and the environment."
I myself tend to believe that he is not an effective enough communicator, in the focus-group-driven way a contemporary politician is willy-nilly forced to be, to lead either his party or the nation. But on this night, at least, and for this crowd, he certainly seemed to give voice to some kind of collective aspiration.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Interesting. The people I know who were in Parliament Square tonight found Corbyn inspiring, and they're more uncompromisingly left than I am. They were specifically pleased that he invoked "refugees, people living in poverty, housing, teachers, trade unions, mental health, gay people, homelessness and the environment."
I myself tend to believe that he is not an effective enough communicator, in the focus-group-driven way a contemporary politician is willy-nilly forced to be, to lead either his party or the nation. But on this night, at least, and for this crowd, he certainly seemed to give voice to some kind of collective aspiration.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:47 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?
Corporations will make large amounts of money if there is a war and if there isn't a war. Do not count on corporations to save your ass.
posted by dilaudid at 3:49 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
Corporations will make large amounts of money if there is a war and if there isn't a war. Do not count on corporations to save your ass.
posted by dilaudid at 3:49 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
> This map of results opened my eyes to the real challenge of the Brexit vote.
Looks like it has been edited to remove the few Leave areas in Northern Ireland. Here's the BBC's map: EU Referendum Results - BBC News.
→ At the level of national politics on which such things play out, then fiat is pretty much the way it goes.
Shame it was a bloody Fiat 126, though ...
posted by scruss at 3:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Looks like it has been edited to remove the few Leave areas in Northern Ireland. Here's the BBC's map: EU Referendum Results - BBC News.
→ At the level of national politics on which such things play out, then fiat is pretty much the way it goes.
Shame it was a bloody Fiat 126, though ...
posted by scruss at 3:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The people I know who were in Parliament Square tonight found Corbyn inspiring, and they're more uncompromisingly left than I am.
Preaching to the choir doesn't win elections, sadly. (And failure to address the biggest political crisis since...I don't know, Lloyd George and the People's Budget, maybe? doesn't look good, either.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Preaching to the choir doesn't win elections, sadly. (And failure to address the biggest political crisis since...I don't know, Lloyd George and the People's Budget, maybe? doesn't look good, either.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Martin Sandbu: What should the EU do now? - "A leap into deeper integration would be the wrong response"
on the rise of transnational facism: "A West dominated by FN, Trumpists, AfD, UKIP, AN/MSI, etc -- would be a West that has thoroughly rejected the Enlightenment project and, along with Putin and the Eurasianists, thrown itself headlong into the arms of the Counter-Enlightenment -- at which point, the Lights really WILL start going out all over, not just Europe, but the world. And the setting of the 'evening lands' (Vesper/West) Spengler's < < Untergang des Abendlandes > > will finally have come to pass."
Democracy, media, and money: "Spengler admits that in his era money has already won, in the form of democracy. But in destroying the old elements of the Culture, it prepares the way for the rise of a new and overpowering figure: the Caesar. Before such a leader, money collapses, and in the Imperial Age the politics of money fades away..."
Leonid Bershidsky is entirely right about the need “to show the rest of the Europeans something the English failed to understand: that it’s really better together than apart. Europe’s voters need to see why they need the bureaucratic beehive in Brussels to keep buzzing.” The facts are that in the EU, elected politicians do have control and use it to make common decisions together; that free movement is economically beneficial. If British voters do not believe this, that’s in large part because British politicians (and media) have overwhelmingly propagated the illusion that unelected Eurocrats decide everything, and because they have not chosen to direct the windfall from EU immigration to those who have been left behind since the 1970s.also btw...
So the way forward is in a conceptual sense straightforward. It is a form of keeping calm and carrying on, but with more openness and more earnestness. It involves national politicians being more truthful about how decisions are made (much more transparency around council meetings would help) and more willing to make policy nationally that addresses the problems of the left-behind. But what is conceptually straightforward is politically awkward because it requires politicians — the elite, if you will — to own up to having been bad stewards of the control they have had throughout.
- snapshot of protest parties in Europe, and which are growing most
- Tony Benn on the 1975 referendum http://ow.ly/AvU8100cEVl understood even then the long-term goal was a United States of Europe
- Benn 1975: EU will eventually "make the United Kingdom into one province of a Western European state"
- [an irish economist's] thoughts on brexit: "Europe should resist the temptation of a 'fuite en avant', attempting to move full speed ahead towards a fiscal and political union that nobody wants."
- The Institutional Design of the Eurozone: "if the Eurozone is to be a good thing for Europe rather than a millstone around the neck of the continent, I think that utopian frenzy is needed."
- Good tweetstorm about the EU's deep institutional problems. It's a quasi-democratic pseudo-country.
- EU seemed a little similar to U.S. under Articles of Confederation. Articles of Confederation failed us; seems clear we need(ed?) a United States of Europe. Or else the inevitable occurs.
- Actually, I've thought the EU was doomed ever since the French and Dutch rejected the new constitution back in 2005:
- After Brexit it's clear: to save liberal democracy, politicians will have to reform capitalism. Yes, and globalization along with it.
on the rise of transnational facism: "A West dominated by FN, Trumpists, AfD, UKIP, AN/MSI, etc -- would be a West that has thoroughly rejected the Enlightenment project and, along with Putin and the Eurasianists, thrown itself headlong into the arms of the Counter-Enlightenment -- at which point, the Lights really WILL start going out all over, not just Europe, but the world. And the setting of the 'evening lands' (Vesper/West) Spengler's < < Untergang des Abendlandes > > will finally have come to pass."
Democracy, media, and money: "Spengler admits that in his era money has already won, in the form of democracy. But in destroying the old elements of the Culture, it prepares the way for the rise of a new and overpowering figure: the Caesar. Before such a leader, money collapses, and in the Imperial Age the politics of money fades away..."
Spengler notes that the greater the concentration of wealth in individuals, the more the fight for political power revolves around questions of money. One cannot even call this corruption or degeneracy, because this is in fact the necessary end of mature democratic systems.posted by kliuless at 3:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
On the subject of the press, Spengler is equally as contemptuous. Instead of conversations between men, the press and the "electrical news-service keep the waking-consciousness of whole people and continents under a deafening drum-fire of theses, catchwords, standpoints, scenes, feelings, day by day and year by year." Through the media, money is turned into force—the more spent, the more intense its influence... The only force which can counter money, in Spengler's estimation, is blood.
This whole thing has been heartbreaking to watch and listen. From my own fears, that sense of liberty and choice being removed to having my sister on the phone in tears for the opportunities she sees taken from her children.
It's been de-moralising, realising that my ideals and morals are not shared by a significant portion of my fellow citizens.
The news is frankly frightening, watching the political system and markets go into meltdown. The fact that things I bought from abroad are some £10 more expensive for me than they were on Thursday last week. The fact that in real terms racist abuse on our streets has increased with some places saying "85 reports between Thursday 23 and Sunday 26 June compared with 54 reports during the same period last month".
The only thing that has been remotely reassuring is that the british sense of humour in the remainers seems somewhat intact. Overall though clusterfuck of epic proportions does not even begin to describe the situation for me. I am ashamed of my country and scared for my future.
posted by diziet at 4:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's been de-moralising, realising that my ideals and morals are not shared by a significant portion of my fellow citizens.
The news is frankly frightening, watching the political system and markets go into meltdown. The fact that things I bought from abroad are some £10 more expensive for me than they were on Thursday last week. The fact that in real terms racist abuse on our streets has increased with some places saying "85 reports between Thursday 23 and Sunday 26 June compared with 54 reports during the same period last month".
The only thing that has been remotely reassuring is that the british sense of humour in the remainers seems somewhat intact. Overall though clusterfuck of epic proportions does not even begin to describe the situation for me. I am ashamed of my country and scared for my future.
posted by diziet at 4:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
marienbad: And so if the problem is "untempered neoliberalism is bad for working people," why exactly is the logical solution "put Boris Johnson in charge of everything?" How, in any way, does empowering an even more right wing coalition stop any of the privitazation you decry in your comment or do anything to help the situation?
So far, one of the main effects of the vote is that racists are calling foreign looking people names and kicking them in the head. Does that in any way contribute to the fight against the neoliberal agenda? Perhaps it could help big business if people are busy fighting about how quickly they can throw out people they don't like the looks of instead of talking about working conditions or bank regulation or benefit cuts or the state of the NHS or virtually anything else.
posted by zachlipton at 4:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
So far, one of the main effects of the vote is that racists are calling foreign looking people names and kicking them in the head. Does that in any way contribute to the fight against the neoliberal agenda? Perhaps it could help big business if people are busy fighting about how quickly they can throw out people they don't like the looks of instead of talking about working conditions or bank regulation or benefit cuts or the state of the NHS or virtually anything else.
posted by zachlipton at 4:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [27 favorites]
Where did I say to put Boris in charge of everything?
BBC Brexit: Gibraltar in talks with Scotland to stay in EU
BBC Was there a Brexit graduate gap?
BBC Merkel moves to rally Europe's leaders after Brexit vote
BBC No need to panic, says ex-Bank of England chief King
Express Remain has treated Leave like 'IDIOTS': Mervyn King says Brexit 'does NOT mean job cuts'
Guradian Mervyn King: Treasury's exaggerated Brexit claims backfired
posted by marienbad at 4:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
BBC Brexit: Gibraltar in talks with Scotland to stay in EU
BBC Was there a Brexit graduate gap?
BBC Merkel moves to rally Europe's leaders after Brexit vote
BBC No need to panic, says ex-Bank of England chief King
Express Remain has treated Leave like 'IDIOTS': Mervyn King says Brexit 'does NOT mean job cuts'
Guradian Mervyn King: Treasury's exaggerated Brexit claims backfired
posted by marienbad at 4:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Marienbad you keep on linking to a thread about employment which blames the EU but in fact is the fault of individual countries. This has been debunked dozens of times by people in this thread and the previous one.
This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
I'm sorry, but your statements about employment and neoliberalism as a function of EU membership are factually false - and they serve to enable racism and fascism.
When you and your family start getting billed by the NHS for evey little thing, when your jobs are even more tenuous, you will see this to be true. I'm sorry you and your friends have swallowed these lies. Please stop spreading them here.
posted by lalochezia at 4:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [78 favorites]
This has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
I'm sorry, but your statements about employment and neoliberalism as a function of EU membership are factually false - and they serve to enable racism and fascism.
When you and your family start getting billed by the NHS for evey little thing, when your jobs are even more tenuous, you will see this to be true. I'm sorry you and your friends have swallowed these lies. Please stop spreading them here.
posted by lalochezia at 4:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [78 favorites]
Have you worked anywhere in the UK with a mixed workforce? Here is what happens: during work, everyone works, but the Polish talk to one another in Polish, the Russians in Russian, the Czechs in Czech and so on. At break, the Polish sit together and talk in Polish the Russians in Russian, the British in English and so on. No-one is interested in joining together.
10 years later, they've all learned to talk to one another - 50 years later their grandchildren are getting married and you can't tell them apart from each other by accent and every easter we have paczkis for everybody
it's been done
posted by pyramid termite at 4:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [91 favorites]
10 years later, they've all learned to talk to one another - 50 years later their grandchildren are getting married and you can't tell them apart from each other by accent and every easter we have paczkis for everybody
it's been done
posted by pyramid termite at 4:15 PM on June 27, 2016 [91 favorites]
i mean mardi gras not easter - and with my catholic background, there's no excuse for that
posted by pyramid termite at 4:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 4:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
My Dad, I don't know how anyone could be said to hijack a party he/she/they is formally the head of.
Oh, that's easy. By constantly pushing it towards the dogmatic left, to the extent that he ends up drawing a lot of communists and left fringers to his meetings, while totally ignoring all pragmatic social democrats closer to the center (they're all evil blairists anyway).
posted by effbot at 4:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, that's easy. By constantly pushing it towards the dogmatic left, to the extent that he ends up drawing a lot of communists and left fringers to his meetings, while totally ignoring all pragmatic social democrats closer to the center (they're all evil blairists anyway).
posted by effbot at 4:18 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
That was published on June 22nd, and wow, he *nailed* it.
No kidding. That's almost eerie in its accuracy.
posted by gimonca at 4:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
No kidding. That's almost eerie in its accuracy.
posted by gimonca at 4:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?
That exact argument was extremely common from 1900-1914.
On the bright side, one thing Europe didn't have in 1914 or 1939 is NATO, which isn't in any obvious danger. The armies of Europe are allied, mutually coordinated, and small by historical standards. We should not be seriously concerned about the possibility of a European war. All we need to worry about is economic collapse and racist violence, which is surely enough to worry about.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:38 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
That exact argument was extremely common from 1900-1914.
On the bright side, one thing Europe didn't have in 1914 or 1939 is NATO, which isn't in any obvious danger. The armies of Europe are allied, mutually coordinated, and small by historical standards. We should not be seriously concerned about the possibility of a European war. All we need to worry about is economic collapse and racist violence, which is surely enough to worry about.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 4:38 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
The market isn't really agreeing that the EU will put the screws to the UK over this. It's more that they are going to all hurt each other. The DAX (benchmark German index) is down 12.5% since before the vote in US dollar terms, while the FTSE (benchmark UK index) is down 16.1%. Worse, but in the same order of magnitude.
Pretty clear that the mandate in Brussels is not supposed to be sticking it to the English regions for voting "Leave" but making sure that there's a strong, no-strings-attached free trade treaty between the UK and EU, even if it lets those self-same Englishmen have their cake and eat it too.
posted by MattD at 4:57 PM on June 27, 2016
Pretty clear that the mandate in Brussels is not supposed to be sticking it to the English regions for voting "Leave" but making sure that there's a strong, no-strings-attached free trade treaty between the UK and EU, even if it lets those self-same Englishmen have their cake and eat it too.
posted by MattD at 4:57 PM on June 27, 2016
I'm not being funny, but the corporations of Europe are making fucking humongous amounts of money selling stuff in Europe, war in Europe would be very bad for business, so do you really think they are going to let that happen?
That exact argument was extremely common from 1900-1914.
And they were right. There were a huge number of smaller conflicts between the Western European great powers that did not erupt into war, largely because peace was too profitable. When the war did start, it of course started in an area without much economic integration.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
That exact argument was extremely common from 1900-1914.
And they were right. There were a huge number of smaller conflicts between the Western European great powers that did not erupt into war, largely because peace was too profitable. When the war did start, it of course started in an area without much economic integration.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
even if it lets those self-same Englishmen have their cake and eat it too.
Nope. That's not going to happen.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nope. That's not going to happen.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:30 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's more that they are going to all hurt each other.
As noted in the other thread, the FTSE 100 is somewhat held up by exporting companies that has benefited from the collapsing GBP, so direct comparisons are a bit tricky. The more UK-centric FTSE 250 has fallen a lot more (13.4% instead of 5.6%).
...
In other news, it seems the UK has been rather un-British and jumped the queue, so Switzerland's negotiations (to sort out the mess after the 2014 referendum) has been put on hold until the UK situation gets sorted out. The Swiss aren't happy. Also, the Swiss national bank is intervening to keep the CHF down. We all have our problems.
posted by effbot at 5:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
As noted in the other thread, the FTSE 100 is somewhat held up by exporting companies that has benefited from the collapsing GBP, so direct comparisons are a bit tricky. The more UK-centric FTSE 250 has fallen a lot more (13.4% instead of 5.6%).
...
In other news, it seems the UK has been rather un-British and jumped the queue, so Switzerland's negotiations (to sort out the mess after the 2014 referendum) has been put on hold until the UK situation gets sorted out. The Swiss aren't happy. Also, the Swiss national bank is intervening to keep the CHF down. We all have our problems.
posted by effbot at 5:31 PM on June 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is no options for being a part of EFTA/EEA (the cake) and being able to close your borders to the rest of the EU (being able to eat it too).
EU markets are being punished primarily for the uncertainty and fears that the Brexit result will signal the end of the Eurozone experiment. But fundamentally even though the loss of the UK economy will hurt the Eurozone the underlying economics are pretty solid. Europe is undeniably stronger together rather than trying to negotiate trade alone.
Right now the residents of the UK have unrealistic expectations about negotiations based upon a total pack of lies coming out of BOGO and Farage. Buyer's remorse has already kicked in hard core and having a couple of months worth of economic uncertainty will no doubt increase unemployment as UK firms cease hiring and economic activity slows down.
The level of uncertainty in the markets will put enormous pressure on the UK parties to come up with a coherent transition plan but right now there seems to be a total lack of leadership from any of the parties including Labour and the Conservatives.
Good Times.
posted by vuron at 5:43 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
EU markets are being punished primarily for the uncertainty and fears that the Brexit result will signal the end of the Eurozone experiment. But fundamentally even though the loss of the UK economy will hurt the Eurozone the underlying economics are pretty solid. Europe is undeniably stronger together rather than trying to negotiate trade alone.
Right now the residents of the UK have unrealistic expectations about negotiations based upon a total pack of lies coming out of BOGO and Farage. Buyer's remorse has already kicked in hard core and having a couple of months worth of economic uncertainty will no doubt increase unemployment as UK firms cease hiring and economic activity slows down.
The level of uncertainty in the markets will put enormous pressure on the UK parties to come up with a coherent transition plan but right now there seems to be a total lack of leadership from any of the parties including Labour and the Conservatives.
Good Times.
posted by vuron at 5:43 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Observing from afar (from here in the US), I'm puzzled by one aspect of this whole thing. I think it's the case that the economic conditions in the UK -- specifically those affecting people at the short end of the stick -- are not that good at all and haven't been for some time. Furthermore, it seems to me that some Leave voters have reacted to these poor economic conditions by focusing some amount of their ire at "faceless bureaucrats in Brussels" as well as immigrants coming to the UK and "taking all the jobs". Fine. But the piece I'm missing is where is the anger towards Whitehall? The Tories were decisively re-elected in 2015 (although some of that may have been due to disorganization from their opposition? and maybe some of that predicated on the Brexit referendum?). From my remove, I've been under the impression that most of the blame for the UK's economic situation lay with its own government's fiscal decisions, especially since it controls and borrows in its own currency (unlike countries on the Euro). Was the austerity plan dictated by the EU? Or maybe the feeling is that the EU has a substantial influence on the UK's economy, rivaling even that of the UK government itself? Because even after you've booted Brussels out of the UK's affairs, don't you still have basically the same MPs in Parliament pursuing the same kinds of agendas?
posted by mhum at 5:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by mhum at 5:55 PM on June 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
The anger among the underclass of Britain has largely been directed at the immigrant groups based upon a perceived lack of assimilation (based upon language and culture) and a feeling like immigrants are stealing jobs.
Over and over people point to data that show that immigrants have had a negligible impact on wages in the UK so the later talking point is absolutely false.
So the other part of the equation mainly centers on the lack of assimilation of primarily Eastern European immigrants into the overall British culture. Additionally there is a lot of distrust towards immigrant groups who are often considered the locus of crime in many communities.
This closely mirrors the way the US has extremely poor race relations especially in regards to Latino immigrants. A perceived refusal to assimilate plus abundant and false rhetoric about immigrants stealing jobs. When you are part of a disadvantaged group of lower income white males with declining economic prospects it becomes very tempting to buy into racist narratives because scapegoating the other is a time honored strategy for getting the proles into fighting among themselves.
Interesting enough the locations where immigrant populations are most numerous (London, Birmingham, etc) tended to be more in favor of remaining in the EU. Maybe it's because having positive interactions with people from other cultures has allowed people to abandon the othering tendencies.
posted by vuron at 6:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Over and over people point to data that show that immigrants have had a negligible impact on wages in the UK so the later talking point is absolutely false.
So the other part of the equation mainly centers on the lack of assimilation of primarily Eastern European immigrants into the overall British culture. Additionally there is a lot of distrust towards immigrant groups who are often considered the locus of crime in many communities.
This closely mirrors the way the US has extremely poor race relations especially in regards to Latino immigrants. A perceived refusal to assimilate plus abundant and false rhetoric about immigrants stealing jobs. When you are part of a disadvantaged group of lower income white males with declining economic prospects it becomes very tempting to buy into racist narratives because scapegoating the other is a time honored strategy for getting the proles into fighting among themselves.
Interesting enough the locations where immigrant populations are most numerous (London, Birmingham, etc) tended to be more in favor of remaining in the EU. Maybe it's because having positive interactions with people from other cultures has allowed people to abandon the othering tendencies.
posted by vuron at 6:11 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Grauniad -- Brexit Survival Guide: freeze your cheese and holiday in Albania
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:26 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
The PM welcomes the new MP for Tooting, Rosena Allin-Khan.
(who by the way is of Polish Pakistani descent, re the discussion earlier.)
posted by effbot at 6:37 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
(who by the way is of Polish Pakistani descent, re the discussion earlier.)
posted by effbot at 6:37 PM on June 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
When you are part of a disadvantaged group of lower income white males with declining economic prospects it becomes very tempting to buy into racist narratives because scapegoating the other is a time honored strategy for getting the proles into fighting among themselves.
You may want to re-check the causal relations in this sentence.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:58 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
You may want to re-check the causal relations in this sentence.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:58 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.
I promise that we'll totally respect your sovereignity and not bully you at all. We probably would totally allow you to keep single payer and we might roll our eyes about your Soccer obsession even though obviously you guys aren't very good at the sport anymore.
Although part of me kind of wants to see Juncker do a rendition of You'll Be Back updated for the Brexit. After all apparently Farage and Boris seem to think that Brexit is the equivalent to the Boston Tea Party or something.
posted by vuron at 7:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I promise that we'll totally respect your sovereignity and not bully you at all. We probably would totally allow you to keep single payer and we might roll our eyes about your Soccer obsession even though obviously you guys aren't very good at the sport anymore.
Although part of me kind of wants to see Juncker do a rendition of You'll Be Back updated for the Brexit. After all apparently Farage and Boris seem to think that Brexit is the equivalent to the Boston Tea Party or something.
posted by vuron at 7:03 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.
I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.
posted by dhens at 7:22 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.
posted by dhens at 7:22 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I promise that we'll totally respect your sovereignty and not bully you at all. We probably would totally allow you to keep single payer
Okay, just because Boris and Nigel took advantage of the Brits by telling a shitload of bald-faced lies doesn't mean Americans should try it, too. C'mon, man.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Okay, just because Boris and Nigel took advantage of the Brits by telling a shitload of bald-faced lies doesn't mean Americans should try it, too. C'mon, man.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
vuron: "The anger among the underclass of Britain has largely been directed at the immigrant groups based upon a perceived lack of assimilation (based upon language and culture) and a feeling like immigrants are stealing jobs."
Yes, I get this. The members of an in-group trying to place blame on an out-group (whether Polish immigrants or Belgian bureaucrats) is among the least surprising human instincts. However, I was trying to steer my query towards the seeming lack of direct anger from Leavers at either Cameron or Osborne or the Conservative party in general since they've had their hands on the wheel for the past six years.
posted by mhum at 7:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I get this. The members of an in-group trying to place blame on an out-group (whether Polish immigrants or Belgian bureaucrats) is among the least surprising human instincts. However, I was trying to steer my query towards the seeming lack of direct anger from Leavers at either Cameron or Osborne or the Conservative party in general since they've had their hands on the wheel for the past six years.
posted by mhum at 7:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I saw this on the Guardian's match report for the England-Iceland game and have to re-post it here:
"I can't help but feel if Jeremy Corbyn had been a bit more openly positive about England's chances in the Euros the result tonight would have been entirely different."
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
"I can't help but feel if Jeremy Corbyn had been a bit more openly positive about England's chances in the Euros the result tonight would have been entirely different."
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 7:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
The members of an in-group trying to place blame on an out-group (whether Polish immigrants or Belgian bureaucrats) is among the least surprising human instincts.
What's blame got to do with it?
Some of them think they will be able to get jobs at Aldi/Tesco et cetera if they can successfully intimidate Poles into leaving and not competing for those jobs. Are they mistaken? Empirically speaking, they're right. Immoral, but right. You might not think too highly of them for thinking this way. But what material motive do they have for giving a rat's ass what you think?
People like that have always existed, in large numbers, and will always exist. Some times they sway elections. The US learned this with Andrew Jackson, so it's not a recent development.
posted by ocschwar at 7:52 PM on June 27, 2016
What's blame got to do with it?
Some of them think they will be able to get jobs at Aldi/Tesco et cetera if they can successfully intimidate Poles into leaving and not competing for those jobs. Are they mistaken? Empirically speaking, they're right. Immoral, but right. You might not think too highly of them for thinking this way. But what material motive do they have for giving a rat's ass what you think?
People like that have always existed, in large numbers, and will always exist. Some times they sway elections. The US learned this with Andrew Jackson, so it's not a recent development.
posted by ocschwar at 7:52 PM on June 27, 2016
I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.
Hmm.
DIdn't Oz threaten to go republican when Britain ENTERED the EU?
posted by ocschwar at 7:53 PM on June 27, 2016
Hmm.
DIdn't Oz threaten to go republican when Britain ENTERED the EU?
posted by ocschwar at 7:53 PM on June 27, 2016
As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there are legit reasons to dislike the EU. Its technocracy and undemocratic elements don't really benefit the lower classes. No grand neoliberal project does. It's also a convenient package for entities like the US to coerce/trade/manipulate. All the easier for a wolf to devour sheep in the corral.
The feeling I get is that these aren't the sort of reasons people want out. This is no revolution of the proles. Plenty of middle class, educated folk are equally excited about separating. Plenty of folks wanted out for the sake of a vague, inarticulate notion of nationalism and intra-european racism ("sub-human slavs" and bad attitudes towards Southern Europeans). I'll mention the extra-european flavour in a moment.
In my eyes this is a demonstration of the failure of the cultural angle of the EU project. Clearly in the case of Britain, it has failed to make a fair number of people feel connected to their subcontinental neighbours (Yes, I think for geographical purposes Europe is an Asian peninsula). Although I do believe it be a rather nefarious project on the whole, that bit was probably its most promising and sincerely beneficial element. I'm sad to see people reject such an attempt at cultivating harmony.
On the other hand, I also understand this as a miscarriage of democracy. I do recognise the impossibility of 99% voter turnout. However, as I heard on the radio today, the total number of eligible, voting UK'ers who voted to leave was only in the high-high thirties. 38% of eligible voters is the same repulsive mandate that made Canadians gag when Harper won last. Even when you break it down to fractions of the casted votes, such a narrow win cannot be touted as democracy. At the very least they should have set the bar at two thirds.
The rancor over non-European immigration frightens me. It's terrifying to see what is, in part, a strong rejection of cohabitation with PoC.
posted by constantinescharity at 7:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The feeling I get is that these aren't the sort of reasons people want out. This is no revolution of the proles. Plenty of middle class, educated folk are equally excited about separating. Plenty of folks wanted out for the sake of a vague, inarticulate notion of nationalism and intra-european racism ("sub-human slavs" and bad attitudes towards Southern Europeans). I'll mention the extra-european flavour in a moment.
In my eyes this is a demonstration of the failure of the cultural angle of the EU project. Clearly in the case of Britain, it has failed to make a fair number of people feel connected to their subcontinental neighbours (Yes, I think for geographical purposes Europe is an Asian peninsula). Although I do believe it be a rather nefarious project on the whole, that bit was probably its most promising and sincerely beneficial element. I'm sad to see people reject such an attempt at cultivating harmony.
On the other hand, I also understand this as a miscarriage of democracy. I do recognise the impossibility of 99% voter turnout. However, as I heard on the radio today, the total number of eligible, voting UK'ers who voted to leave was only in the high-high thirties. 38% of eligible voters is the same repulsive mandate that made Canadians gag when Harper won last. Even when you break it down to fractions of the casted votes, such a narrow win cannot be touted as democracy. At the very least they should have set the bar at two thirds.
The rancor over non-European immigration frightens me. It's terrifying to see what is, in part, a strong rejection of cohabitation with PoC.
posted by constantinescharity at 7:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't know about the US of A, but AUS is making some noises that don't sound very pro-British: one, two, three.
QE2 is 90 and I'll personally hand in my passport to the Minister of Foreign Affairs if that dickbag Charles ends up our king with Camilla as "King's Consort" or whatever dipshit title she's given to make it clear she'll never be considered Queen. Bring on the Australian Republic. Hell, bring on Australian membership to the EU. Stay out of the ERM, get free access to the EU freedom of movement, the EU free trading bloc, maybe we can stop gutting the CSIRO and I'll go back home and vote for it in a heartbeat.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
QE2 is 90 and I'll personally hand in my passport to the Minister of Foreign Affairs if that dickbag Charles ends up our king with Camilla as "King's Consort" or whatever dipshit title she's given to make it clear she'll never be considered Queen. Bring on the Australian Republic. Hell, bring on Australian membership to the EU. Stay out of the ERM, get free access to the EU freedom of movement, the EU free trading bloc, maybe we can stop gutting the CSIRO and I'll go back home and vote for it in a heartbeat.
posted by Talez at 7:59 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
What's Australia's reason for being in the EU once it leaves the Commonwealth? A large population of people descended from European colonists?
Can Indonesia apply too?
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:04 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can Indonesia apply too?
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:04 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Non binding. The Tories and Labor tear themselves to shreds over the stupidity of it all. Snap elections called. Lots of re-alignment, pro-leavers realize with horror they've been cozzening up to jack-booted literal Nazis, Borris gets stuck on the zip-line again, and his jack-boots fall off as he waves all about his little Union-Jacks.
Someone we've never heard of on this side of the Atlantic takes over Parliament, and calls for a Rule 50 vote!
Ruling party, opposition party, every other party besides UKIP and BNP - Howabout NOPE. Does NOPE. work for you? If not, vote in some MP's to do your foul bidding, creature.
"Boaty McBoatface." Really?
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 PM on June 27, 2016
Someone we've never heard of on this side of the Atlantic takes over Parliament, and calls for a Rule 50 vote!
Ruling party, opposition party, every other party besides UKIP and BNP - Howabout NOPE. Does NOPE. work for you? If not, vote in some MP's to do your foul bidding, creature.
"Boaty McBoatface." Really?
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:04 PM on June 27, 2016
Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.
I don't think we could really count on the English to assimilate to US culture — they probably wouldn't even bother to learn our language.
posted by stopgap at 8:05 PM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
I don't think we could really count on the English to assimilate to US culture — they probably wouldn't even bother to learn our language.
posted by stopgap at 8:05 PM on June 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
ocschwar: "Are they mistaken? Empirically speaking, they're right. Immoral, but right."
My understanding is that empirically speaking, the picture is more cloudy than this. The basic idea is that if all the immigrants left, there might be more job openings at the store... until the store notices that their sales had mysteriously decreased because there are fewer people buying stuff and now there aren't actually any more job openings. Maybe that second part never happens, but maybe it does. I believe this is one of the basic issues in empirical analyses of the economic effects of immigration.
But again, my overall question was not at all about this part of the equation but rather about Leavers' attitudes towards the UK government itself.
posted by mhum at 8:05 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
My understanding is that empirically speaking, the picture is more cloudy than this. The basic idea is that if all the immigrants left, there might be more job openings at the store... until the store notices that their sales had mysteriously decreased because there are fewer people buying stuff and now there aren't actually any more job openings. Maybe that second part never happens, but maybe it does. I believe this is one of the basic issues in empirical analyses of the economic effects of immigration.
But again, my overall question was not at all about this part of the equation but rather about Leavers' attitudes towards the UK government itself.
posted by mhum at 8:05 PM on June 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
No grand neoliberal project does. It's also a convenient package for entities like the US to coerce/trade/manipulate. All the easier for a wolf to devour sheep in the corral.
wrong. You just made one big sheep which regularly kicks the ass of corporations and defends workers rights, the environment, and human rights despite its (pre) neoliberal origins...MUCH more than any labor or conservative govt has done in the last 25 years.
posted by lalochezia at 8:09 PM on June 27, 2016 [39 favorites]
wrong. You just made one big sheep which regularly kicks the ass of corporations and defends workers rights, the environment, and human rights despite its (pre) neoliberal origins...MUCH more than any labor or conservative govt has done in the last 25 years.
posted by lalochezia at 8:09 PM on June 27, 2016 [39 favorites]
What's Australia's reason for being in the EU once it leaves the Commonwealth? A large population of people descended from European colonists?
Well the whole EU being our (Australia's) second largest trading partner behind China. Plus when it comes to trade deals with China we can negotiate with the rest of the EU behind us instead of the world's largest economy trying to steamroll the 12th biggest economy. A full quarter of our population is already born overseas and over 10% already have an EU passport. We have a stable, liberal democracy and economy so we won't automatically become economic migrants. We have compatible values, compatible aims, they love us in Eurovision, we love to study and backpack in the EU.
I mean why wouldn't you? Australia, Canada, and NZ are prime candidates to join the EU! I mean for god's sake they were going to let Turkey in at one point (and hopefully they will once they lose their little proto-dictator) and they're basically in Asia!
posted by Talez at 8:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well the whole EU being our (Australia's) second largest trading partner behind China. Plus when it comes to trade deals with China we can negotiate with the rest of the EU behind us instead of the world's largest economy trying to steamroll the 12th biggest economy. A full quarter of our population is already born overseas and over 10% already have an EU passport. We have a stable, liberal democracy and economy so we won't automatically become economic migrants. We have compatible values, compatible aims, they love us in Eurovision, we love to study and backpack in the EU.
I mean why wouldn't you? Australia, Canada, and NZ are prime candidates to join the EU! I mean for god's sake they were going to let Turkey in at one point (and hopefully they will once they lose their little proto-dictator) and they're basically in Asia!
posted by Talez at 8:14 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe now that you guys have tired of the Bullies from Brussels you'd like to join up with your former colonies in the west.
The Bahamas?
posted by Thorzdad at 8:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Bahamas?
posted by Thorzdad at 8:24 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm sure the EU is a major trading partner of lots of economies. Australia, NZ and Canada certainly stretch the idea of Europe a bit further than Turkey. I see Mexico isn't invited.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean why wouldn't you? Australia, Canada, and NZ are prime candidates to join the EU! I mean for god's sake they were going to let Turkey in at one point (and hopefully they will once they lose their little proto-dictator) and they're basically in Asia!
I sorta feel like Turkey is pushing it, but at least part of that country is in Europe. The EU previously refused a membership application from Morocco, as it wasn't in Europe. So I reckon we (Aus, Can, NZ) might not have much of a chance.
Unrelated: Someone upthread used BOGO for Boris/Gove. Add Farage and that gives you BOGOF(f)....
posted by Pink Frost at 8:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I sorta feel like Turkey is pushing it, but at least part of that country is in Europe. The EU previously refused a membership application from Morocco, as it wasn't in Europe. So I reckon we (Aus, Can, NZ) might not have much of a chance.
Unrelated: Someone upthread used BOGO for Boris/Gove. Add Farage and that gives you BOGOF(f)....
posted by Pink Frost at 8:29 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Australia, NZ and Canada certainly stretch the idea of Europe a bit further than Turkey.
Not sure if it has already been mentioned up-thread, but Canada has spent the last number of years negotiating a free trade deal with Europe called CETA. I've never heard of anyone seriously suggest Canada join the EU, although since President Obama essentially ignored NAFTA after 2008, during the Great Recession, forcing Canada to take the US to court to get the US to stand up to negotiated trade commitments, there was some talk about Canada instead developing deeper trade ties with Europe.
As for CETA, Canada has negotiated a number of free trade deals over the past decade or so, and none of them have really caught fire (notably, the FTA with South Korea has been a dud) mostly because the United States is our largest trading partner.
So it is really hard to believe that trade with the EU would increase if and when CETA is formally ratified and implemented.
posted by My Dad at 8:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not sure if it has already been mentioned up-thread, but Canada has spent the last number of years negotiating a free trade deal with Europe called CETA. I've never heard of anyone seriously suggest Canada join the EU, although since President Obama essentially ignored NAFTA after 2008, during the Great Recession, forcing Canada to take the US to court to get the US to stand up to negotiated trade commitments, there was some talk about Canada instead developing deeper trade ties with Europe.
As for CETA, Canada has negotiated a number of free trade deals over the past decade or so, and none of them have really caught fire (notably, the FTA with South Korea has been a dud) mostly because the United States is our largest trading partner.
So it is really hard to believe that trade with the EU would increase if and when CETA is formally ratified and implemented.
posted by My Dad at 8:48 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Australia trades more with ASEAN than Japan, the US, or the EU. And plus, y'know, the Jaegar program is in the Pacific.
posted by FJT at 9:06 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by FJT at 9:06 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
"EU seemed a little similar to U.S. under Articles of Confederation. Articles of Confederation failed us; seems clear we need(ed?) a United States of Europe. Or else the inevitable occurs."
Yeah, I feel like one consequence of Brexit's fallout is going to be that Hamilton's European tour is an absolute blockbuster. "Okay, so, explain again, if New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it? But could you have the Hamilton guy explain it with Greece and Germany in place of New York and Virginia? And slow it way down, I want to make sure I take good notes ..."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I feel like one consequence of Brexit's fallout is going to be that Hamilton's European tour is an absolute blockbuster. "Okay, so, explain again, if New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it? But could you have the Hamilton guy explain it with Greece and Germany in place of New York and Virginia? And slow it way down, I want to make sure I take good notes ..."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:13 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
On a more serious note, does it seem like the winds on the Continent are shifting towards containing the damage/negotiating a calm exit, or is it moving more towards punishing the UK/making an example of them? (The English-language news media panic is drowning out everything else so it's hard where I am to get a sense of the Continental European response, and Der Spiegel English language edition probably isn't the sum total of it ...)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Australia trades more with ASEAN than Japan, the US, or the EU. And plus, y'know, the Jaegar program is in the Pacific.
Except ASEAN members aren't exactly liberal democracies. Japan and South Korea certainly but they are ASEAN+3. I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU. Honestly that's all I'm looking for. Making it easier to settle wherever I feel like.
posted by Talez at 9:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Except ASEAN members aren't exactly liberal democracies. Japan and South Korea certainly but they are ASEAN+3. I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU. Honestly that's all I'm looking for. Making it easier to settle wherever I feel like.
posted by Talez at 9:23 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU.
Might it be for the best if we don't all lock ourselves into one single administrative system? Having at least a thin layer of bureaucratic insulation between (e.g.) the NAFTA bloc and the EU helps ensure that a regional crisis doesn't destabilize every single democratic country simultaneously.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Might it be for the best if we don't all lock ourselves into one single administrative system? Having at least a thin layer of bureaucratic insulation between (e.g.) the NAFTA bloc and the EU helps ensure that a regional crisis doesn't destabilize every single democratic country simultaneously.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:53 PM on June 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
The basic idea is that if all the immigrants left, there might be more job openings at the store... until the store notices that their sales had mysteriously decreased because there are fewer people buying stuff and now there aren't actually any more job openings.
Or the immigrants leave, wages for jobs do rise, which causes prices of everything to rise, which means low-income people have the same or worse buying power. For example, here in Texas the vast majority of construction jobs are worked by immigrants. For relatively low wages. Which means, ok, those jobs aren't available to citizens who in previous generations (cause this is not a recent thing and the economy has adjusted to it) may have worked them. But the cost of housing is SUPER CHEAP, so those low-income citizens find work in other fields where, say, communication skills are more necessary, and they can afford a house now. And there ARE jobs available because businesses move here like crazy because everything is so cheap to build. We have some of the best economies in the country and also the highest levels of immigrants.
I mean these things are complicated and all situations have positive and negatives, but that's the point. It's freaking complicated. The reality is that totally cutting off immigration, legal or illegal, is basically impossible.
posted by threeturtles at 9:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Or the immigrants leave, wages for jobs do rise, which causes prices of everything to rise, which means low-income people have the same or worse buying power. For example, here in Texas the vast majority of construction jobs are worked by immigrants. For relatively low wages. Which means, ok, those jobs aren't available to citizens who in previous generations (cause this is not a recent thing and the economy has adjusted to it) may have worked them. But the cost of housing is SUPER CHEAP, so those low-income citizens find work in other fields where, say, communication skills are more necessary, and they can afford a house now. And there ARE jobs available because businesses move here like crazy because everything is so cheap to build. We have some of the best economies in the country and also the highest levels of immigrants.
I mean these things are complicated and all situations have positive and negatives, but that's the point. It's freaking complicated. The reality is that totally cutting off immigration, legal or illegal, is basically impossible.
posted by threeturtles at 9:56 PM on June 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have a possibly stupid question about immigration. When I lived in the UK most immigrants I knew were from former common wealth countries. Wouldn't that be completely unaffected by leaving the EU?
As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there are legit reasons to dislike the EU.
It's possible all the leave voters once had to fill out an EU form
posted by fshgrl at 10:02 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there are legit reasons to dislike the EU.
It's possible all the leave voters once had to fill out an EU form
posted by fshgrl at 10:02 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Okay, so, explain again, if New York's in debt, why should Virginia bear it? But could you have the Hamilton guy explain it with Greece and Germany in place of New York and Virginia? And slow it way down, I want to make sure I take good notes ..."
Britain, that was a real nice referendum.
Welcome to the Continent, we enjoyed your little tantrum
Do you want to crawl back, or keep choking,
Toking whatever the hell it is Nigel Farage is smoking?
If you don't stay with us, the UK is fucked,
Falling stocks, the Sterling fading, a downgraded credit rating
How are you still hating? If you just put away your impudence
The EU gets a boost -- you'd rather kick out the immigrants
A civics lesson from an empire? Um, Sire,
Your population's diverse 'cause of centuries of gunfire
"We're not racist, we just want Britain for the British" yeah keep raving,
We see which way the Union Jack is waving
And another thing, Mister Direct Democracy,
Don't lecture us with your House Of Lords aristocracy
You don't like our decision-makers? Let me guess
Yours promised you $350 mil a week for the NHS
David Cameron always just hammerin' and stammerin'
Saccharin, never met a pig he didn't cram 'er in,
Boris, man, you dumb as the Donald so stop your clamorin'
Hope you're enjoying your own-goal Gotterdammerung
Sitting there, already regret this
Hey, turn around, bend over, stuff it in your own Brexit
posted by saturday_morning at 10:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [216 favorites]
Britain, that was a real nice referendum.
Welcome to the Continent, we enjoyed your little tantrum
Do you want to crawl back, or keep choking,
Toking whatever the hell it is Nigel Farage is smoking?
If you don't stay with us, the UK is fucked,
Falling stocks, the Sterling fading, a downgraded credit rating
How are you still hating? If you just put away your impudence
The EU gets a boost -- you'd rather kick out the immigrants
A civics lesson from an empire? Um, Sire,
Your population's diverse 'cause of centuries of gunfire
"We're not racist, we just want Britain for the British" yeah keep raving,
We see which way the Union Jack is waving
And another thing, Mister Direct Democracy,
Don't lecture us with your House Of Lords aristocracy
You don't like our decision-makers? Let me guess
Yours promised you $350 mil a week for the NHS
David Cameron always just hammerin' and stammerin'
Saccharin, never met a pig he didn't cram 'er in,
Boris, man, you dumb as the Donald so stop your clamorin'
Hope you're enjoying your own-goal Gotterdammerung
Sitting there, already regret this
Hey, turn around, bend over, stuff it in your own Brexit
posted by saturday_morning at 10:21 PM on June 27, 2016 [216 favorites]
*speechless*
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:25 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
*Bravo!*
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 PM on June 27, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 PM on June 27, 2016
#ham4cam
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I liked the part with the pig.
posted by Justinian at 10:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:41 PM on June 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
The English-language news media panic is drowning out everything else so it's hard where I am to get a sense of the Continental European response, and Der Spiegel English language edition probably isn't the sum total of it ...
Politico.eu has more pan-European news. Newspaper French isn't all that difficult to read, so you could always check out Figaro or Le Monde, too.
posted by My Dad at 10:43 PM on June 27, 2016
Politico.eu has more pan-European news. Newspaper French isn't all that difficult to read, so you could always check out Figaro or Le Monde, too.
posted by My Dad at 10:43 PM on June 27, 2016
what's great is that future generations will probably mix up the relatively tame "young David Cameron puts his dick in a roast pig's head" story with the plot of the Black Mirror episode where the PM has to actually fuck a living pig.
seriously the best thing about the historical record is how easy it is to distort it to make unlikable people seem completely disgusting. the best thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:51 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
seriously the best thing about the historical record is how easy it is to distort it to make unlikable people seem completely disgusting. the best thing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:51 PM on June 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
And the scary thing is Boris is actually quite intelligent
"He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it." - George Orwell
posted by lalochezia at 10:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
"He wears a mask, and his face grows to fit it." - George Orwell
posted by lalochezia at 10:52 PM on June 27, 2016 [26 favorites]
Britain, that was a real nice referendum.
Welcome to the Continent, we enjoyed your little tantrum
+100,000 Internets to anyone who can get Lin Manuel Miranda to perform this.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
Welcome to the Continent, we enjoyed your little tantrum
+100,000 Internets to anyone who can get Lin Manuel Miranda to perform this.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:34 PM on June 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
You Can't Tip a Buick - I had the exact same thought about MI5 meddling in the electoral process: the referendum result pretty much guarantees they didn't (and neither did any other elites, as you pointed out). Conspiracy theories aside your interference test is reasonably sound, but the cost of using it is fucking over the country, which I'd argue is a little high.
As for Australia joining the EU, that's an interesting thought Talez. If the defining quality of Europeanness is shared values, Australia is probably a good fit - the country has had small-l liberal tendencies since inception, and is a stable, healthy democracy. As an Aussie, freedom of movement within the EU is pretty attractive to me as well, mainly for culinary reasons, and I'd argue that Australian culinary culture could use an infusion of talent from countries with millenia of culinary history.
But set against personal attractions, there's an objective, massive benefit of independent financial and political systems, namely freedom from instability elsewhere and domino effects and whatnot, like justsomebody mentioned. Without diminishing the very real distress of people more affected by Brexity developments than I am, I'm very relieved to be somewhat insulated from the fallout of all this stupidity. I sorta value the reputation Aussie voters have for voting intelligently, and being subject to bad decisions made by a voting bloc as thick as 52% of the UK would be enough to make me start my own micronation somewhere. (I suspect many Aussies would feel similarly, especially considering Bonnie Malkin's Grauniad opinion piece, which is not written by an Aussie but I think is probably representative of the feelings of British expats here, whether they hold citizenship or not.)
Taking the idea of Australia-in-EU seriously for a little longer, I think at minimum Australia would need to observe how the EU handles systemic effects from the referendum result over the long term. A large chunk of the electorate here values our freedom from the type of economic woes the EU is associated with, and there would need to be ways to insulate our economy as well as perhaps the US can insulate theirs. I'm not sure that's possible while actually being an EU member - the best you could do is perhaps one level greater access than WTO status, maybe. Another issue is the Australian attitude toward authority - being subject to Brussels at all would be an enormously hard sell. Another another issue is that a decent chunk of the electorate supports strong border controls, myself included. EU-style freedom of movement nixes the entirety of the Liberals' policy there I suspect.
One final implication of Australia being in the EU - does Israel get to join too? (I'm personally fine with that idea but I suspect many mefites and many Australians would take issue.)
posted by iffthen at 11:40 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
As for Australia joining the EU, that's an interesting thought Talez. If the defining quality of Europeanness is shared values, Australia is probably a good fit - the country has had small-l liberal tendencies since inception, and is a stable, healthy democracy. As an Aussie, freedom of movement within the EU is pretty attractive to me as well, mainly for culinary reasons, and I'd argue that Australian culinary culture could use an infusion of talent from countries with millenia of culinary history.
But set against personal attractions, there's an objective, massive benefit of independent financial and political systems, namely freedom from instability elsewhere and domino effects and whatnot, like justsomebody mentioned. Without diminishing the very real distress of people more affected by Brexity developments than I am, I'm very relieved to be somewhat insulated from the fallout of all this stupidity. I sorta value the reputation Aussie voters have for voting intelligently, and being subject to bad decisions made by a voting bloc as thick as 52% of the UK would be enough to make me start my own micronation somewhere. (I suspect many Aussies would feel similarly, especially considering Bonnie Malkin's Grauniad opinion piece, which is not written by an Aussie but I think is probably representative of the feelings of British expats here, whether they hold citizenship or not.)
Taking the idea of Australia-in-EU seriously for a little longer, I think at minimum Australia would need to observe how the EU handles systemic effects from the referendum result over the long term. A large chunk of the electorate here values our freedom from the type of economic woes the EU is associated with, and there would need to be ways to insulate our economy as well as perhaps the US can insulate theirs. I'm not sure that's possible while actually being an EU member - the best you could do is perhaps one level greater access than WTO status, maybe. Another issue is the Australian attitude toward authority - being subject to Brussels at all would be an enormously hard sell. Another another issue is that a decent chunk of the electorate supports strong border controls, myself included. EU-style freedom of movement nixes the entirety of the Liberals' policy there I suspect.
One final implication of Australia being in the EU - does Israel get to join too? (I'm personally fine with that idea but I suspect many mefites and many Australians would take issue.)
posted by iffthen at 11:40 PM on June 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Australia is probably a good fit - the country has had small-l liberal tendencies since inception, and is a stable, healthy democracy.
Stable? We've had five prime ministers in five years. One of whom compulsively ate raw onions whenever one was put in front of him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Stable? We've had five prime ministers in five years. One of whom compulsively ate raw onions whenever one was put in front of him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:50 PM on June 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Which side of the Barassi Line do they typically come from? It's important (to me).
posted by vbfg at 11:53 PM on June 27, 2016
posted by vbfg at 11:53 PM on June 27, 2016
Which side of the Barassi Line do they typically come from? It's important (to me).
All of them except for Julia Gillard were on the rugby league side. Why?
Also, I had to look up what the Barassi Line was.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:57 PM on June 27, 2016
All of them except for Julia Gillard were on the rugby league side. Why?
Also, I had to look up what the Barassi Line was.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:57 PM on June 27, 2016
Would Brisbane's AFL team need to change its team song to avoid offending the French if it wanted to join the EU?
(AFL team songs are very much in my top 5 favorite Australian things list)
posted by zachlipton at 11:58 PM on June 27, 2016
(AFL team songs are very much in my top 5 favorite Australian things list)
posted by zachlipton at 11:58 PM on June 27, 2016
> All of them except for Julia Gillard were on the rugby league side. Why?
Then move over, I'm on my way.
posted by vbfg at 11:59 PM on June 27, 2016
Then move over, I'm on my way.
posted by vbfg at 11:59 PM on June 27, 2016
To those on the left: Again, now is the time for solidarity (we all know and love that word, right?) There is nothing wrong in supporting aspects of capitalism (FTSE etc) during a period of upheaval since those things are directly responsible for the continued existence and creation of jobs as well as important things like people's pensions funds.
You cannot flip a switch from neoliberalism to socialism overnight. The process is a gradual one and those on the left who supported Remain did so with the full knowledge of this being the case. We suspected that this disruption would be hardest on those at the bottom of our incredibly unbalanced and unfair society and so we erred on the side of caution - not for us but for those most at threat.
We theorised that BOGOF were selling people a bill of goods that they couldn't possibly deliver and since each of the parts of the BOGOF monstrosity are likely to gain in power during this period of disruption and uncertainty and each of them in turn is a hard-right neoliberal that makes the EU look like sunshine and lollipops that now was not the ideal time to exit.
These are moot points however. Unless we literally never hit the Art.50 button we're in the poop now and we need to solidify the left. If you are around working class folk or other Leavers, speak to them. Tell them what the effects are in terms of the ascendancy of neoliberalism and the right wing across Europe, explain to them the environmental impacts, the costs to working people. Explain that at best, we're going to probably be in the EEA and therefore beholden to all the same rules and regulations as before but this time without a seat at the table.
It does seem like an echo chamber amongst Corbyn supporters (I am one of them). The PLP seem to have timed this to cause maximum devastation, particularly with the Chilcot report coming soon. We need his honesty and his nuance but we also need to be able to fight on the same level of media awareness as UKIP or the Labour party will continue to bleed support.
I'm going along to the next UKIP meeting I see*, both to gauge the threat, see what they're selling (and this is what Labour *should* have been doing), and how can we show vacillating supporters that Labour is where the answers lie, and not with the crooked spiv Farage et al.
*I am so going to get beaten to fuck...
posted by longbaugh at 12:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
You cannot flip a switch from neoliberalism to socialism overnight. The process is a gradual one and those on the left who supported Remain did so with the full knowledge of this being the case. We suspected that this disruption would be hardest on those at the bottom of our incredibly unbalanced and unfair society and so we erred on the side of caution - not for us but for those most at threat.
We theorised that BOGOF were selling people a bill of goods that they couldn't possibly deliver and since each of the parts of the BOGOF monstrosity are likely to gain in power during this period of disruption and uncertainty and each of them in turn is a hard-right neoliberal that makes the EU look like sunshine and lollipops that now was not the ideal time to exit.
These are moot points however. Unless we literally never hit the Art.50 button we're in the poop now and we need to solidify the left. If you are around working class folk or other Leavers, speak to them. Tell them what the effects are in terms of the ascendancy of neoliberalism and the right wing across Europe, explain to them the environmental impacts, the costs to working people. Explain that at best, we're going to probably be in the EEA and therefore beholden to all the same rules and regulations as before but this time without a seat at the table.
It does seem like an echo chamber amongst Corbyn supporters (I am one of them). The PLP seem to have timed this to cause maximum devastation, particularly with the Chilcot report coming soon. We need his honesty and his nuance but we also need to be able to fight on the same level of media awareness as UKIP or the Labour party will continue to bleed support.
I'm going along to the next UKIP meeting I see*, both to gauge the threat, see what they're selling (and this is what Labour *should* have been doing), and how can we show vacillating supporters that Labour is where the answers lie, and not with the crooked spiv Farage et al.
*I am so going to get beaten to fuck...
posted by longbaugh at 12:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Then move over, I'm on my way.
Well, We Have Boundless Plains to Share.
Unless you're a refugee. Then we have extremely limited space on a hellish prison island to which we will condemn you to for an indefinite period.
I doubt the EU, for all its own flaws, would favourably on Australia's refugee policy
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, We Have Boundless Plains to Share.
Unless you're a refugee. Then we have extremely limited space on a hellish prison island to which we will condemn you to for an indefinite period.
I doubt the EU, for all its own flaws, would favourably on Australia's refugee policy
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have been a proud Englishman. The latter will be fine.
posted by vbfg at 12:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 12:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Sorry mates, but the Tony Abbott / onion thing is getting to be a derail, and we have miles to go before we sleep. Generally, let's all try to keep this a bit focused to avoid a catastrophic threadxit. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 12:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I've seen that too winterhill but I have also heard people in pubs and shops talking about politics (real power relations politics, not media soundbite rubbish like they do at election time) in a way that you get maybe once in a generation.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've seen that too winterhill but I have also heard people in pubs and shops talking about politics (real power relations politics, not media soundbite rubbish like they do at election time) in a way that you get maybe once in a generation.
This is true, the last time I can remember this level of political discourse across society was probably the run up to the Iraq war.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is true, the last time I can remember this level of political discourse across society was probably the run up to the Iraq war.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
EU Parliment Extraordinary session streaming now (English feed).
I presume the latest Guardian liveblog will have highlights.
posted by zachlipton at 1:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I presume the latest Guardian liveblog will have highlights.
posted by zachlipton at 1:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Corbyn's nearest man John McDonnell reminds the Corbyn fanclub to stop harrassing MP staff, and yeah, maybe join the party as well while you're at it. While the troopers are accusing MPs of being bought by zionist money. It's not just Farage that's unleashing strange forces, Corbyn seems to be pretty good at that shit too.
posted by effbot at 1:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by effbot at 1:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
The world's most appropriate mis-pronounciation and master of negotiation (as proved with the junior doctors), Jeremy Hunt, is considering a bid for the Tory leadership.
God help us if he does, as he seems to be delusional that the EU will allow us full common market access with restrictions on freedom of movement.
posted by MattWPBS at 1:17 AM on June 28, 2016
God help us if he does, as he seems to be delusional that the EU will allow us full common market access with restrictions on freedom of movement.
posted by MattWPBS at 1:17 AM on June 28, 2016
The thing is it's now perfectly clear that Corbyn is basically incompetent. Apart from anything else, he's incapable of doing the job he was elected to do.
I sort of hoped against hope that he wouldn't be, that there would be someone who could lead us back from the ruinous policies of the last forty years, but he is. I realise there are all the corporate and elite interests ranged against him, but so what? That's not going to go away, in fact, if anything it's going to intensify. If he can't hold it together now - and it's evident he can't - what's going to happen during a general election?
I mean, the simplest thing: the Parliamentary Labour Party. OK, so they're the evile Blairites, fine, they hate everything he stands for. People who fundamentally disagree with him. But building a working relationship with people who disagree with you is the foundation of basic managerial, leadership competence. If he can't manage a simple working relationship with less than 250 people, how would he deal with a nation of 60 million, many of whom are Tories or LibDem or SNP or, yes, Blairites? What's he going to do? Round them up and have them deselected?
If his response to people disagreeing with him, or even publically not liking him, is to gather his close friends round to form a Downfall re-enactment society, what's the fucking good of him?
I realise that this is as shallow as anything I decry, but what sealed it for me was my Facebook timeline spitting out a video of George Galloway doing his "We all need to gather round Jeremy Corbyn for the good of the movement" bit. George fucking Galloway. If a man is incapable of soberly accepting the fact of male pattern baldness, he isn't likely to be able to form realistic opinions on the enormous practical challenges a country faces.
"But we need someone who'll put forward left-wing policies" - OK. What are the policies? Where are the actual fucking policies, apart from something something tuition fees?
At this point our best bet is probably the SNP, but failing that (and I can see why people might object to a Scottish nationalist party running England, although they never seemed to complain when it was an English nationalist party running Scotland), it probably is the fucking Blairites, though I hate to say it. They might have betrayed the working classes and laid the foundations of our current ills but at least they could run a fucking whelk stall, without degenerating into...
... Solidarity. Soli-fucking-darity. There's a difference between solidarity - the recognition of basic common interests and the putting aside of personal and group interests in the service of a common aim - and people who have power demanding unquestioning obedience because they happen to be wearing the hat with "Leader" written on it. You don't demand solidarity - that's dictatorship - you build it, you show where the common interests lie, you identify a common aim. If you can't do that, you don't deserve it, and you probably don't deserve power.
I keep getting told that the People Have Spoken. But The People don't seem to have any idea what the fuck they're talking about. Democracy in this country is broken because people don't seem to understand simple causality - both the electorate and their representatives. "There are too many immigrants" (incidentally, if employers are shipping in labour from other places rather than employing locally, you don't have a migrant problem, you have an employer problem), or we want to "take back control", so they vote for political isolation, giving up any democratic representation in the political structures that will inevitably dominate their lives and kick-starting a self-inflicted recession. Whoop de doo! If Article 50 does come up for a vote in parliament, any self-respecting politician should vote against it, because it's not a political decision, it's an act of national self harm. The People Have Spoken. For fuck's sake.
posted by Grangousier at 1:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]
I sort of hoped against hope that he wouldn't be, that there would be someone who could lead us back from the ruinous policies of the last forty years, but he is. I realise there are all the corporate and elite interests ranged against him, but so what? That's not going to go away, in fact, if anything it's going to intensify. If he can't hold it together now - and it's evident he can't - what's going to happen during a general election?
I mean, the simplest thing: the Parliamentary Labour Party. OK, so they're the evile Blairites, fine, they hate everything he stands for. People who fundamentally disagree with him. But building a working relationship with people who disagree with you is the foundation of basic managerial, leadership competence. If he can't manage a simple working relationship with less than 250 people, how would he deal with a nation of 60 million, many of whom are Tories or LibDem or SNP or, yes, Blairites? What's he going to do? Round them up and have them deselected?
If his response to people disagreeing with him, or even publically not liking him, is to gather his close friends round to form a Downfall re-enactment society, what's the fucking good of him?
I realise that this is as shallow as anything I decry, but what sealed it for me was my Facebook timeline spitting out a video of George Galloway doing his "We all need to gather round Jeremy Corbyn for the good of the movement" bit. George fucking Galloway. If a man is incapable of soberly accepting the fact of male pattern baldness, he isn't likely to be able to form realistic opinions on the enormous practical challenges a country faces.
"But we need someone who'll put forward left-wing policies" - OK. What are the policies? Where are the actual fucking policies, apart from something something tuition fees?
At this point our best bet is probably the SNP, but failing that (and I can see why people might object to a Scottish nationalist party running England, although they never seemed to complain when it was an English nationalist party running Scotland), it probably is the fucking Blairites, though I hate to say it. They might have betrayed the working classes and laid the foundations of our current ills but at least they could run a fucking whelk stall, without degenerating into...
... Solidarity. Soli-fucking-darity. There's a difference between solidarity - the recognition of basic common interests and the putting aside of personal and group interests in the service of a common aim - and people who have power demanding unquestioning obedience because they happen to be wearing the hat with "Leader" written on it. You don't demand solidarity - that's dictatorship - you build it, you show where the common interests lie, you identify a common aim. If you can't do that, you don't deserve it, and you probably don't deserve power.
I keep getting told that the People Have Spoken. But The People don't seem to have any idea what the fuck they're talking about. Democracy in this country is broken because people don't seem to understand simple causality - both the electorate and their representatives. "There are too many immigrants" (incidentally, if employers are shipping in labour from other places rather than employing locally, you don't have a migrant problem, you have an employer problem), or we want to "take back control", so they vote for political isolation, giving up any democratic representation in the political structures that will inevitably dominate their lives and kick-starting a self-inflicted recession. Whoop de doo! If Article 50 does come up for a vote in parliament, any self-respecting politician should vote against it, because it's not a political decision, it's an act of national self harm. The People Have Spoken. For fuck's sake.
posted by Grangousier at 1:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]
So Juncker just said that the people voted and the EU must respect democracy. Farage started clapping and Juncker asked why he was clapping, saying "that's the last time you applaud here" and then ripping into Farage asking "why are you here."
Juncker also wants us to know (English translation) he's not a gray bureaucrat or technocrat. "I'm not a robot, I'm not a machine, I'm a European and I have the right to say I regret the result of the British vote."
posted by zachlipton at 1:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
Juncker also wants us to know (English translation) he's not a gray bureaucrat or technocrat. "I'm not a robot, I'm not a machine, I'm a European and I have the right to say I regret the result of the British vote."
posted by zachlipton at 1:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
They might have betrayed the working classes and laid the foundations of our current ills but at least they could run a fucking whelk stall
Which one of them could? Even Tom Watson seems pretty incapable of running a coup these days and that's basically his raison d'être.
I'm a Corbyn supporter but I'd happily switch to a genuine Prime Ministerial contender in the Labour party if one showed up. A lot of the reason for his overwhelming support last year amongst party members was the comparison between an honest and genuine man and the charisma and idea free figures up against him. Gordon Brown comes across as a giant of the party compared to the shower we have at the moment and he couldn't win an election.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Which one of them could? Even Tom Watson seems pretty incapable of running a coup these days and that's basically his raison d'être.
I'm a Corbyn supporter but I'd happily switch to a genuine Prime Ministerial contender in the Labour party if one showed up. A lot of the reason for his overwhelming support last year amongst party members was the comparison between an honest and genuine man and the charisma and idea free figures up against him. Gordon Brown comes across as a giant of the party compared to the shower we have at the moment and he couldn't win an election.
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Juncker also made a forceful case that there are to be no exit negotiations until Article 50 is invoked, which takes the sails out of Jeremy Hunt's plan to negotiate a deal first, put it to another damn referendum, and only then invoke article 50.
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 1:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
"There are too many immigrants" (incidentally, if employers are shipping in labour from other places rather than employing locally, you don't have a migrant problem, you have an employer problem),
All true, but it just doesn't unfold that way in people's lives. Take Uber for example - the problem is that to the ordinary person, there is no employer, it's an app. Suddenly guys who used to earn 60k gross driving a cab (enough to raise a family etc) are earning 35k because the Uber drivers from Bulgaria can do it for 20k. I agree with the structural reasons for the cut in their earnings that now makes it impossible for them to retire/send their kids to college, but genuine question, what do you say to them?
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
All true, but it just doesn't unfold that way in people's lives. Take Uber for example - the problem is that to the ordinary person, there is no employer, it's an app. Suddenly guys who used to earn 60k gross driving a cab (enough to raise a family etc) are earning 35k because the Uber drivers from Bulgaria can do it for 20k. I agree with the structural reasons for the cut in their earnings that now makes it impossible for them to retire/send their kids to college, but genuine question, what do you say to them?
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Farage really is determined to live his pub bore act 24/7 I see.
Juncker also made a forceful case that there are to be no exit negotiations until Article 50 is invoked
That’s just negotiation in action: Set out your stall, see if the other side takes your initial offer.
posted by pharm at 1:41 AM on June 28, 2016
Juncker also made a forceful case that there are to be no exit negotiations until Article 50 is invoked
That’s just negotiation in action: Set out your stall, see if the other side takes your initial offer.
posted by pharm at 1:41 AM on June 28, 2016
Suddenly guys who used to earn 60k gross driving a cab
Where the hell is this and can I migrate there?
posted by billiebee at 1:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Where the hell is this and can I migrate there?
posted by billiebee at 1:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
what do you say to them?
"An American company built software that runs on American or South-East Asian designed hardware, built in Asia, that makes it trivial for literally anyone to do your job. Your government, not the EU, decided to let them, despite having previously established your industry as a virtual monopoly.
Uber's rise in the UK has almost nothing to do with the EU, and many taxi industries across Europe have been disrupted by it. Voting Leave because you hate globalisation is pointless and will only screw you further; people in a recession spend less money on cabs, not more, and they're more likely to use Uber because it's cheaper."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:45 AM on June 28, 2016 [27 favorites]
"An American company built software that runs on American or South-East Asian designed hardware, built in Asia, that makes it trivial for literally anyone to do your job. Your government, not the EU, decided to let them, despite having previously established your industry as a virtual monopoly.
Uber's rise in the UK has almost nothing to do with the EU, and many taxi industries across Europe have been disrupted by it. Voting Leave because you hate globalisation is pointless and will only screw you further; people in a recession spend less money on cabs, not more, and they're more likely to use Uber because it's cheaper."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:45 AM on June 28, 2016 [27 favorites]
I agree with the structural reasons for the cut in their earnings that now makes it impossible for them to retire/send their kids to college, but genuine question, what do you say to them?
You tell Uber they can't operate in the UK/ or otherwise regulate them. I recognize that "isn't realistic" and "But that's competition/ capitalism" but sometimes capitalism has to take it in the neck, especially when it's working against and in fact exploiting the public (what, the 'Bulgarian' doesn't want to send his kids to college?)
posted by From Bklyn at 1:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
You tell Uber they can't operate in the UK/ or otherwise regulate them. I recognize that "isn't realistic" and "But that's competition/ capitalism" but sometimes capitalism has to take it in the neck, especially when it's working against and in fact exploiting the public (what, the 'Bulgarian' doesn't want to send his kids to college?)
posted by From Bklyn at 1:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
Leader of the European People's Party calling out Farage: "the worst liars can be found among UKIP." Demanding that he apologize for his statements during the campaign.
"At the side of Mr. Farage you have Mr. Putin, who is extremely pleased about this result, and that explains a great deal."
posted by zachlipton at 1:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
"At the side of Mr. Farage you have Mr. Putin, who is extremely pleased about this result, and that explains a great deal."
posted by zachlipton at 1:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
what, the 'Bulgarian' doesn't want to send his kids to college?)
The EU immigrant drivers tend to be younger, that's all. It's not a job they view as one for life, which opens a whole other set of issues about employment.
billiebee, it was generally claimed to be around 50-60k gross traditionally for a London cab driver who'd paid for the 2 years training upfront and who puts in the hours (and also has a fair amount of self-employment tax breaks, and the fact that it used to be all cash). The cab rent, fuel and other costs come out of that and you're left with enough to go on holidays, a job you can do for life, house in the suburbs etc. - stuff that of course a lot of people have no hope of getting any more as we've discussed before.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:51 AM on June 28, 2016
The EU immigrant drivers tend to be younger, that's all. It's not a job they view as one for life, which opens a whole other set of issues about employment.
billiebee, it was generally claimed to be around 50-60k gross traditionally for a London cab driver who'd paid for the 2 years training upfront and who puts in the hours (and also has a fair amount of self-employment tax breaks, and the fact that it used to be all cash). The cab rent, fuel and other costs come out of that and you're left with enough to go on holidays, a job you can do for life, house in the suburbs etc. - stuff that of course a lot of people have no hope of getting any more as we've discussed before.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:51 AM on June 28, 2016
So what do you tell them?
posted by Grangousier at 1:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 1:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just avoid those conversations, like most middle class people in a black cab I suspect.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The EU immigrant drivers tend to be younger, that's all. It's not a job they view as one for life, which opens a whole other set of issues about employment
My, so many sweeping generalisations. Have you ever actually spoken to a Bulgarian taxi driver and enquired of his or her family obligations or longterm employment ambitions?
posted by billiebee at 1:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
My, so many sweeping generalisations. Have you ever actually spoken to a Bulgarian taxi driver and enquired of his or her family obligations or longterm employment ambitions?
posted by billiebee at 1:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Genuine question- was there some kind of EU law that required the UK to adopt Uber that will now be rescinded?
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:56 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:56 AM on June 28, 2016
Those cabbies aren't going back to 60k/year if we throw out immigrants. You'll just get British people driving the Uber cars instead (which, I should add, seems to be at least as common right now as immigrant drivers). The solution here is to throw out Uber.
posted by Dysk at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
I just avoid those conversations, like most middle class people in a black cab I suspect.
Me too. I suspect that's why we're teetering on the brink of catastrophe.
Oh, no, come to think of it, the teetering is over. Down we go.
posted by Grangousier at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Me too. I suspect that's why we're teetering on the brink of catastrophe.
Oh, no, come to think of it, the teetering is over. Down we go.
posted by Grangousier at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just avoid those conversations, like most middle class people in a black cab I suspect.
So, how do you know what 'EU immigrant drivers' think about Uber or how they view their jobs?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
So, how do you know what 'EU immigrant drivers' think about Uber or how they view their jobs?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Juncker says he has imposed a Presidential Ban on all contact between EU officials and UK officials until Art 50
posted by infini at 1:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
(I ask because cab drivers out here - mostly immigrants - have been majorly screwed by the introduction of Uber. I think the problem might be Uber, not who is doing the driving)
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Uber is regulated in the UK: Their drivers have to go through the same regulations that every other cab firm does (unless I’m completely mistaken about this, which is possible!). Uber doesn’t get to play the same regulatory arbitrage games in the UK as they have elsewhere in the world.
Honestly? You tell the Black cab drivers in London that their USP (the knowledge) is no longer being relevant in a world where every driver has access to SatNav that comes with live traffic information & therefore that their particular monopoly (to pick up fares on the street) is no longer justifiable. The world changes, people move on.
posted by pharm at 2:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Honestly? You tell the Black cab drivers in London that their USP (the knowledge) is no longer being relevant in a world where every driver has access to SatNav that comes with live traffic information & therefore that their particular monopoly (to pick up fares on the street) is no longer justifiable. The world changes, people move on.
posted by pharm at 2:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Uber is regulated in the UK: Their drivers have to go through the same regulations that every other cab firm does
Uber as a cab company is regulated. Uber as an employer (sorry, "contracting entity" or whatever bullshit) is not.
Guess which bit affects employment conditions and wages.
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Uber as a cab company is regulated. Uber as an employer (sorry, "contracting entity" or whatever bullshit) is not.
Guess which bit affects employment conditions and wages.
posted by Dysk at 2:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Head of the European Liberal Party (Guy Verhofstadt) described Farage's posters as "like Nazi Propaganda." Calls his lies damaging for all "hard working ordinary decent people."
posted by zachlipton at 2:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 2:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Juncker says he has imposed a Presidential Ban on all contact between EU officials and UK officials until Art 50
Wow. He's not playing around. It does indeed look like they're going to smash the UK as hard as they can, to discourage any other EU members.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wow. He's not playing around. It does indeed look like they're going to smash the UK as hard as they can, to discourage any other EU members.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
He's certainly doing a good job of making Farage's case for him.
Arguably he's doing the exact opposite - trying to ensure that the democracy so many Leave supporters made a central case of their campaign is done with regard to Britain and the EU.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Arguably he's doing the exact opposite - trying to ensure that the democracy so many Leave supporters made a central case of their campaign is done with regard to Britain and the EU.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
His point is that the UK can't negotiate a secret sweetheart deal and only then push the big red button. They have to follow the process in an orderly fashion. To put it another way: if you're going to put a giant bomb in the middle of the chamber, get on with arming it promptly.
Full video of Juncker and Farage "hugging" before the session. It was weird.
posted by zachlipton at 2:21 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Full video of Juncker and Farage "hugging" before the session. It was weird.
posted by zachlipton at 2:21 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
So, how do you know what 'EU immigrant drivers' think about Uber or how they view their jobs?
I always have a chat with Uber drivers because they don't go into all the racist UKIP stuff, and they tell you exactly what they think of Uber etc.
Have you ever actually spoken to a Bulgarian taxi driver and enquired of his or her family obligations or longterm employment ambitions?
Of course. I only mentioned Bulgaria because that was the most recent guy, who told me about the medicine his mum needed for £50 a month, a very classic story of a qualified guy doing a low-status job abroad sending money home. Bulgaria is by far one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the EU, so he had a fair bit to say about that too.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I always have a chat with Uber drivers because they don't go into all the racist UKIP stuff, and they tell you exactly what they think of Uber etc.
Have you ever actually spoken to a Bulgarian taxi driver and enquired of his or her family obligations or longterm employment ambitions?
Of course. I only mentioned Bulgaria because that was the most recent guy, who told me about the medicine his mum needed for £50 a month, a very classic story of a qualified guy doing a low-status job abroad sending money home. Bulgaria is by far one of the poorest and most corrupt countries in the EU, so he had a fair bit to say about that too.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Buzzfeed: We Visited The Town Where 75.6% Of People Voted To Leave The EU.
posted by pharm at 2:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by pharm at 2:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
He's not playing around. It does indeed look like they're going to smash the UK as hard as they can, to discourage any other EU members.
This morning's news had the Finns squashing any noise of Fixit
posted by infini at 2:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
This morning's news had the Finns squashing any noise of Fixit
posted by infini at 2:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Farage gets up to speak and is shouted at by virtually everyone. Schulz tells the Parliament listening is part of democracy.
"Isn't it funny...You're not laughing now. You as a political project are in denial. You are in denial your currency is failing...You have by stealth and deception without ever telling the truth to the people of the UK and Europe imposed upon them a political union."
Now he's ranting about the "ordinary people" and "we want our country back." "We offer a beacon of hope to democrats across the rest of the continent."
Farage wants to invoke Article 50 promptly, calls for a grown-up attitude to negotiations, and was immediately shouted at. "I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives." At this point Schulz now tells the angry Parliament "you're acting like UKIP normally acts in this chamber, don't imitate them."
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Isn't it funny...You're not laughing now. You as a political project are in denial. You are in denial your currency is failing...You have by stealth and deception without ever telling the truth to the people of the UK and Europe imposed upon them a political union."
Now he's ranting about the "ordinary people" and "we want our country back." "We offer a beacon of hope to democrats across the rest of the continent."
Farage wants to invoke Article 50 promptly, calls for a grown-up attitude to negotiations, and was immediately shouted at. "I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives." At this point Schulz now tells the angry Parliament "you're acting like UKIP normally acts in this chamber, don't imitate them."
posted by zachlipton at 2:30 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
marienbad: " Where was it, Indonesia I think, where their policies caused unemployment to rise to 75%."
Zimbabwe, maybe? For Indonesia, I can only find information going back to 1982, and since then the highest unemployment rate was 11% in 2005, so I highly doubt you're thinking of Indonesia. Zimbabwe hit 80% in 2008, so it seems possible, but I don't think their policies really match up to anything in Europe, be it EU or UKIP or Tories or Quidnunc Party.
posted by Bugbread at 2:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Zimbabwe, maybe? For Indonesia, I can only find information going back to 1982, and since then the highest unemployment rate was 11% in 2005, so I highly doubt you're thinking of Indonesia. Zimbabwe hit 80% in 2008, so it seems possible, but I don't think their policies really match up to anything in Europe, be it EU or UKIP or Tories or Quidnunc Party.
posted by Bugbread at 2:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
From that Buzzfeed article:
“You’re trying to squeeze all these people into a small place. The doctors can’t cope with it. The hospitals can’t. Any surgery, housing, schools, it’s all the same. It’s like that bedroom tax – if the foreigners weren’t here that wouldn’t have been invented.”
Nothing to do with Tory policy, no siree. Foreigners are totally the people living one to a three bedroom house. And it's fit young Eastern Europeans filling up the GPs, not the aging population.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
“You’re trying to squeeze all these people into a small place. The doctors can’t cope with it. The hospitals can’t. Any surgery, housing, schools, it’s all the same. It’s like that bedroom tax – if the foreigners weren’t here that wouldn’t have been invented.”
Nothing to do with Tory policy, no siree. Foreigners are totally the people living one to a three bedroom house. And it's fit young Eastern Europeans filling up the GPs, not the aging population.
posted by threetwentytwo at 2:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. We've had a lot of threads about Uber, which is currently variously regulated by country as far as I know, and presumably not a direct reason for Brexit, so maybe we can skip a major derail about this.
posted by taz (staff) at 2:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 2:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I read the phrase "pour encourager les autres" one more time, I'll... I'll... briser mon ordinateur in impotent rage.
The only hope now is that Parliament votes immediately to reject the referendum result as having been secured under false pretenses and ban any PM from triggering Article 50, to take us back to the status quo ante-February. Yes, the UK would never be seen the same way in Europe again, which is true either way. Yes, the UK would have drastically weaker influence over the development of future EU regulations, as opposed to none if we're in the EEA. Yes, we would lose some businesses to Europe, which is already happening. None of that is worse than what we face if we stay on this path. We're three working days into this mess, and look at where we are already.
The biggest effect, of course, will be that many sitting MPs will lose their seats next election, to UKIP and worse. But Britain's latent racism has already been unleashed. At least we'll be fighting it out in the open.
posted by rory at 2:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
The only hope now is that Parliament votes immediately to reject the referendum result as having been secured under false pretenses and ban any PM from triggering Article 50, to take us back to the status quo ante-February. Yes, the UK would never be seen the same way in Europe again, which is true either way. Yes, the UK would have drastically weaker influence over the development of future EU regulations, as opposed to none if we're in the EEA. Yes, we would lose some businesses to Europe, which is already happening. None of that is worse than what we face if we stay on this path. We're three working days into this mess, and look at where we are already.
The biggest effect, of course, will be that many sitting MPs will lose their seats next election, to UKIP and worse. But Britain's latent racism has already been unleashed. At least we'll be fighting it out in the open.
posted by rory at 2:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
So wait, Farage is talking about a "you" with a failing currency and who's been lying to the British people? Has he switched sides?
posted by effbot at 2:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by effbot at 2:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
He was seemingly talking about the Euro and the EU, but the irony was in fact not lost on me.
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 AM on June 28, 2016
I honestly read that as him being dressed down by another MEP at first.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 2:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'd like to see more liberal democracies come together with freedom of movement and join a system like the EU. Honestly that's all I'm looking for. Making it easier to settle wherever I feel like.
I only have time for the merest approach to what is a much longer and more complicated set of thoughts, but part of the problem here is that liberal democracies do not reliably remain same, not even over a single human lifetime. Sometimes a democratic government is destabilized or outright overthrown owing in large part to foreign action — often, historically, at the behest of the US — and sometimes a liberal democracy decides of its own right to become...something else. The maintenance of democracy, like any other act of maintenance, is a constant struggle, and requires continuous investments of energy and effort.
What we are seeing in the UK now — what me, my partner, hundreds of friends we know personally and tens of millions of people beyond that are experiencing — is a failure of maintenance, not the triumph of democracy. We have failed to educate entire generations on how to think critically and evaluate the options before them with wisdom, and we have failed to design democratic processes that buffer us against impetuous choices when faced with perilously high-stakes decisions. And now, in this democracy, we will pay the price for that failure.
Blessed be the maintainers, always, everywhere.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [72 favorites]
I only have time for the merest approach to what is a much longer and more complicated set of thoughts, but part of the problem here is that liberal democracies do not reliably remain same, not even over a single human lifetime. Sometimes a democratic government is destabilized or outright overthrown owing in large part to foreign action — often, historically, at the behest of the US — and sometimes a liberal democracy decides of its own right to become...something else. The maintenance of democracy, like any other act of maintenance, is a constant struggle, and requires continuous investments of energy and effort.
What we are seeing in the UK now — what me, my partner, hundreds of friends we know personally and tens of millions of people beyond that are experiencing — is a failure of maintenance, not the triumph of democracy. We have failed to educate entire generations on how to think critically and evaluate the options before them with wisdom, and we have failed to design democratic processes that buffer us against impetuous choices when faced with perilously high-stakes decisions. And now, in this democracy, we will pay the price for that failure.
Blessed be the maintainers, always, everywhere.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [72 favorites]
What we are seeing in the UK now ... is a failure of maintenance, not the triumph of democracy
A-fucking-men.
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
A-fucking-men.
posted by Grangousier at 3:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, one more thing: This fact-checking by the BBC of claims made by Leave certainly would have been welcome before the polling started. Given the stakes, I would have required it to be broadcast at the top of every hour.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:05 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:05 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I was in my twenties in the mid-1990s, part of a liberal, multicultural, left-leaning, global-facing democracy, and watched in horror as the national political conversation was hijacked by a minor politician appealing to latent racism, who entered parliament alongside a new right-wing government. Over subsequent years that government pulled the country more and more to the right, with hardline policies against refugees and worse. That shift is one reason I was keen to move to another country for a few years, a few years which have now turned into fifteen.
Twenty years on from the 1996 election, the country's racism is taken as a given in the rest of the English-speaking world; I have to accept this, and make apologies for it when it comes up, and defend all the good things my country has achieved, and explain how the dominant narrative in no way represents what I believe or what most of my friends and family believe.
My Australian friends and family.
I will never again put up with smug British superiority about how racist Australians are. The mask has been ripped off, Britain, and the face underneath is exactly the same. You are us and we are you. And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat. There but for the grace of November 8 go you.
We have to fight this, all of us. Open racism is in large part a byproduct of economic conditions and media narratives which must be addressed, but first the very openness of it has to be challenged.
Don't get all English and polite on us now. Don't overhear someone saying something racist on public transport and tut under your breath, or shrink away in embarrassment, or say nothing for the sake of a quiet life. Shout at those fuckers. Swear at those fuckers. Get Australian at those fuckers. We can stamp this down, but it has to be now, and it has to be hard.
posted by rory at 3:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [54 favorites]
Twenty years on from the 1996 election, the country's racism is taken as a given in the rest of the English-speaking world; I have to accept this, and make apologies for it when it comes up, and defend all the good things my country has achieved, and explain how the dominant narrative in no way represents what I believe or what most of my friends and family believe.
My Australian friends and family.
I will never again put up with smug British superiority about how racist Australians are. The mask has been ripped off, Britain, and the face underneath is exactly the same. You are us and we are you. And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat. There but for the grace of November 8 go you.
We have to fight this, all of us. Open racism is in large part a byproduct of economic conditions and media narratives which must be addressed, but first the very openness of it has to be challenged.
Don't get all English and polite on us now. Don't overhear someone saying something racist on public transport and tut under your breath, or shrink away in embarrassment, or say nothing for the sake of a quiet life. Shout at those fuckers. Swear at those fuckers. Get Australian at those fuckers. We can stamp this down, but it has to be now, and it has to be hard.
posted by rory at 3:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [54 favorites]
The privilege of the elite fuelled the anger of the leave voters. - Tim Lott, Guardian.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Full English Brexit means fewer kippers for Ukippers? British fishermen warned Brexit will not mean greater catches
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Really? I thought there were quite a few among the "elite" who promoted Leave and whipped up a lot of the anger, like (referenced above) "Diamond-mining tycoon and major ‘Leave’ campaign donor Arron Banks" and, of course, the owners of all those Pro-Leave Media owners... is Rupert Murdock still running a few papers? I'll bet he's definitely Great Britain's most powerful Australian now.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
If people voted Leave to stick it to the elite it's strange that we're talking about stopping poor Bulgarian taxi drivers earning enough money to support their families. Is sticking it to working class immigrants as well just a happy bonus?
posted by billiebee at 3:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 3:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [30 favorites]
Europe has failed to fulfil the historic role allocated to it. Jobs, living standards and welfare states were all better protected in the heyday of nation states in the 1950s and 1960s than they have been in the age of globalisation.
"Brexit is a rejection of globalisation", Larry Elliott.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:48 AM on June 28, 2016
"Brexit is a rejection of globalisation", Larry Elliott.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:48 AM on June 28, 2016
The inevitable venerable meme trundles into view: Boris Johnson's HQ as the EU referendum result comes in.
posted by Grangousier at 3:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
What's Australia's reason for being in the EU once it leaves the Commonwealth?
Australian Republicanism has nothing to do with leaving the Commonwealth. It's about replacing the Queen as head of state, which at this point is a purely symbolic move. It's also separate from the issue of changing the flag, although that often goes hand-in-hand with it.
The Commonwealth has other countries with their own heads of state and Union-Jack-less flags, most prominently India.
posted by rory at 3:50 AM on June 28, 2016
Australian Republicanism has nothing to do with leaving the Commonwealth. It's about replacing the Queen as head of state, which at this point is a purely symbolic move. It's also separate from the issue of changing the flag, although that often goes hand-in-hand with it.
The Commonwealth has other countries with their own heads of state and Union-Jack-less flags, most prominently India.
posted by rory at 3:50 AM on June 28, 2016
Taking a quote from the article, I think his point's a lot better than the headline:
Yes, the world has changed massively, and university is no longer reserved for the privileged few. But nevertheless, according to all the statistics, social mobility has receded a long way from the high watermark it was at when I left school in the 1970s. This is one of the reasons the working class, in their inchoate rage, decided to leave the European Union. Because whatever the facts of the matter, they felt abandoned.
I'd agree with this. There's been a lack of engagement with people lower down the proverbial food chain, and I think that needs to change. It doesn't change that voting Leave is probably one of the most damaging things they could do to themselves, but it makes sense.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, the world has changed massively, and university is no longer reserved for the privileged few. But nevertheless, according to all the statistics, social mobility has receded a long way from the high watermark it was at when I left school in the 1970s. This is one of the reasons the working class, in their inchoate rage, decided to leave the European Union. Because whatever the facts of the matter, they felt abandoned.
I'd agree with this. There's been a lack of engagement with people lower down the proverbial food chain, and I think that needs to change. It doesn't change that voting Leave is probably one of the most damaging things they could do to themselves, but it makes sense.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:52 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
How do the right-wing free marketeers avoid the blame every time? Tories cut public services and give corporations enormous taxpayer handouts in exchange for the McJobs they provide. But somehow this is the EU's fault? or globalisation's fault?
I'm sure Turnbull here in Oz wishes he had such a convenient scapegoat.
posted by harriet vane at 3:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
I'm sure Turnbull here in Oz wishes he had such a convenient scapegoat.
posted by harriet vane at 3:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
we're talking about stopping poor Bulgarian taxi drivers earning enough money to support their families. Is sticking it to working class immigrants as well just a happy bonus?
There has been a fair bit of organised opposition to Uber by the incumbent cabbies (as opposed to only targeting the drivers), but the EU Commission backed Uber a few weeks ago.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:00 AM on June 28, 2016
There has been a fair bit of organised opposition to Uber by the incumbent cabbies (as opposed to only targeting the drivers), but the EU Commission backed Uber a few weeks ago.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:00 AM on June 28, 2016
The inevitable venerable meme trundles into view
Inevitable but very funny. "We can't leave the EU. That's mental!"
posted by billiebee at 4:01 AM on June 28, 2016
Inevitable but very funny. "We can't leave the EU. That's mental!"
posted by billiebee at 4:01 AM on June 28, 2016
"Or the immigrants leave, wages for jobs do rise, which causes prices of everything to rise, which means low-income people have the same or worse buying power. For example, here in Texas the vast majority of construction jobs are worked by immigrants. For relatively low wages. Which means, ok, those jobs aren't available to citizens who in previous generations (cause this is not a recent thing and the economy has adjusted to it) may have worked them. But the cost of housing is SUPER CHEAP, so those low-income citizens find work in other fields where, say, communication skills are more necessary, and they can afford a house now. And there ARE jobs available because businesses move here like crazy because everything is so cheap to build. We have some of the best economies in the country and also the highest levels of immigrants.
I mean these things are complicated and all situations have positive and negatives, but that's the point. It's freaking complicated. The reality is that totally cutting off immigration, legal or illegal, is basically impossible."
But this is not what has happened in the UK - there was a housing shortage and it was made worse, prices went up faster, rental availability went down, rental prices went up, it became a buyers market that was wonderful for landlords and property owners who have made a killing. Meanwhile, the poor can't get on the property ladder.
BBC Fact Check: "Vote Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith claimed that the UK would need to build 240 houses a day for 20 years to cope with increased demand. We've found this claim to be correct. And as we've outlined here, the recent increase in immigration has put additional pressure on school places. Overall it is equivalent to less than one pupil for each school in the UK, although it's important to point out that immigration is not evenly spread across Britain. "
240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?
And just remind me again how many bankers did these wonderful countries that make up the EU send to jail after the financial crash?
As for Juncker - he was head of Luxemboourg, a tax haven that runs (and has for a long time) schemes whereby (under EU law) corporations can set up shell companies and use them to avoid paying tax in (for e.g.) the UK. It must have cost the people of Europe hundreds of billions in lost tax revenue over the years, money we could have spent improving our countries, but no, we have to let the corporations get away with not paying their fucking tax.
And would you agree that the power structures such as the US political parties, the US houses, the UK government, the Regulators have been captured/subsumed./taken over by the rich and powerful, by the ruling elite? And you shomehow think it will be different with the EU over the long term?
Right I have to work now. I will leave you with a joke from teh football (via the guardian)
Patrick Kielty: “Boris - probably best if you secure those borders before this England team gets home.”
posted by marienbad at 4:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean these things are complicated and all situations have positive and negatives, but that's the point. It's freaking complicated. The reality is that totally cutting off immigration, legal or illegal, is basically impossible."
But this is not what has happened in the UK - there was a housing shortage and it was made worse, prices went up faster, rental availability went down, rental prices went up, it became a buyers market that was wonderful for landlords and property owners who have made a killing. Meanwhile, the poor can't get on the property ladder.
BBC Fact Check: "Vote Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith claimed that the UK would need to build 240 houses a day for 20 years to cope with increased demand. We've found this claim to be correct. And as we've outlined here, the recent increase in immigration has put additional pressure on school places. Overall it is equivalent to less than one pupil for each school in the UK, although it's important to point out that immigration is not evenly spread across Britain. "
240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?
And just remind me again how many bankers did these wonderful countries that make up the EU send to jail after the financial crash?
As for Juncker - he was head of Luxemboourg, a tax haven that runs (and has for a long time) schemes whereby (under EU law) corporations can set up shell companies and use them to avoid paying tax in (for e.g.) the UK. It must have cost the people of Europe hundreds of billions in lost tax revenue over the years, money we could have spent improving our countries, but no, we have to let the corporations get away with not paying their fucking tax.
And would you agree that the power structures such as the US political parties, the US houses, the UK government, the Regulators have been captured/subsumed./taken over by the rich and powerful, by the ruling elite? And you shomehow think it will be different with the EU over the long term?
Right I have to work now. I will leave you with a joke from teh football (via the guardian)
Patrick Kielty: “Boris - probably best if you secure those borders before this England team gets home.”
posted by marienbad at 4:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
we have to let the corporations get away with not paying their fucking tax
We have to? Oh no, the UK Government happily lets them away with it all by themselves.
posted by billiebee at 4:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
We have to? Oh no, the UK Government happily lets them away with it all by themselves.
posted by billiebee at 4:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
the EU Commission backed Uber a few weeks ago
And the UK allowed it years ago and judged it legal last year. I know you hate the EU but you're clutching at straws now.
posted by harriet vane at 4:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
And the UK allowed it years ago and judged it legal last year. I know you hate the EU but you're clutching at straws now.
posted by harriet vane at 4:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
If the UK govt backed it and so did the EU, then obviously the cabbies had nowhere else to go... apart from to the lies of Farage and Johnson.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:13 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:13 AM on June 28, 2016
marinebad - we hear you. You've made your position clear in this thread and the other. You know we're on the same side, right? You know that whilst we want the glorious revolution we also want it as bloodless as possible and with the minimum possible disruption to working people's lives? We get that you now believe us to be in a better position than last week. That's cool. What is your next step to take us to the promised land?
posted by longbaugh at 4:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 4:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
There are fine EU countries with higher population densities than the UK. You seem to be making a "the boat is full" argument while claiming not to be with the racists.
posted by patrick54 at 4:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by patrick54 at 4:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
If the UK govt backed it and so did the EU...
Off the top of my head I know France and Germany have put some regulations on Uber to make it operate more in line as a regular on-call cab company.
posted by PenDevil at 4:19 AM on June 28, 2016
Off the top of my head I know France and Germany have put some regulations on Uber to make it operate more in line as a regular on-call cab company.
posted by PenDevil at 4:19 AM on June 28, 2016
If the UK govt backed it and so did the EU, then obviously the cabbies had nowhere else to go... apart from to the lies of Farage and Johnson.
And yet leaving the EU doesn't get rid of the UK government. So what now?
posted by harriet vane at 4:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
And yet leaving the EU doesn't get rid of the UK government. So what now?
posted by harriet vane at 4:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
This perhaps doesn't reflect well on me, but today I've had to walk away from two conversations involving people who regret their vote.
Both were employees of the same provincial research oriented university with a high proportion of fee paying European students that I am. One where all employees are incredibly fearful for their futures anyway since the introduction of fees and the massive reorganisation of the institution this precipitated.
I am physically shaking with rage. These are good people I have been friends with for a long time.
In how many places is this scene being repeated up and down the country?
posted by vbfg at 4:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
Both were employees of the same provincial research oriented university with a high proportion of fee paying European students that I am. One where all employees are incredibly fearful for their futures anyway since the introduction of fees and the massive reorganisation of the institution this precipitated.
I am physically shaking with rage. These are good people I have been friends with for a long time.
In how many places is this scene being repeated up and down the country?
posted by vbfg at 4:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
The English-language news media panic is drowning out everything else so it's hard where I am to get a sense of the Continental European response, and Der Spiegel English language edition probably isn't the sum total of it ...
Yes Spiegel online international edition is rather good but of course it’s limited to a selection of English translations of their own Spiegel articles only. So that’s a very partial snapshot of the German media debate.
For a much wider snapshot of the press from more European countries I’d recommend Vox Europ - it publishes translations in English (and across all languages) from media all over Europe, even countries and languages typically ignored by English-language media. It also has a very active comment section and is updated very frequently.
There’s also Euractiv which is bigger and well-funded, it produces its own content in partnership with some European media, it’s much more focused on EU policies and affairs and closer to EU institutions; and EU Observer which apparently has more of a euroskeptic slant.
Politico.eu has more pan-European news.
Uh I don’t know I wouldn’t recommend Politico.eu as a good source on pan-European news, it’s often very clickbaity and focuses more on targeting a certain kind of American readers than on understanding and presenting European political debates from within. What I happened to read of their commentary on the Greek debt crisis last year was rather awful and distorted.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:25 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
Yes Spiegel online international edition is rather good but of course it’s limited to a selection of English translations of their own Spiegel articles only. So that’s a very partial snapshot of the German media debate.
For a much wider snapshot of the press from more European countries I’d recommend Vox Europ - it publishes translations in English (and across all languages) from media all over Europe, even countries and languages typically ignored by English-language media. It also has a very active comment section and is updated very frequently.
There’s also Euractiv which is bigger and well-funded, it produces its own content in partnership with some European media, it’s much more focused on EU policies and affairs and closer to EU institutions; and EU Observer which apparently has more of a euroskeptic slant.
Politico.eu has more pan-European news.
Uh I don’t know I wouldn’t recommend Politico.eu as a good source on pan-European news, it’s often very clickbaity and focuses more on targeting a certain kind of American readers than on understanding and presenting European political debates from within. What I happened to read of their commentary on the Greek debt crisis last year was rather awful and distorted.
posted by bitteschoen at 4:25 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
backed Uber
Backed doesn't mean a free for all.
"The commission’s paper said companies in the sharing economy should not be subject to sector-specific rules – such as regulations aimed at hotels and taxi firms – unless they own assets and set the price of the service. But Katainen also stressed that such businesses should not become a “parallel informal economy” operating free of regulation. He said: “It’s clear that the collaborative economy cannot be a way to abuse labour. Neither is it a way to avoid paying tax.” [...] Member states should also distinguish between individuals providing services on an occasional basis and providers acting in a professional capacity, by establishing thresholds based on the level of activity, the guidelines recommend."
Fwiw, Sweden deregulated the taxi business long before Uber arrived. The first thing that happened was that they started ripping off literally everyone, especially tourists ("why work a full day when I can charge a few tourists hundreds of dollars over the the usual price and go home" or my favourite from that article "nobody who knows what they're doing uses my shitty service, therefore I have to overcharge to survive"). It's a rotten business.
Still not sure how a Brexit thread came to be about a Silicon Valley "disruptor", though.
posted by effbot at 4:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Backed doesn't mean a free for all.
"The commission’s paper said companies in the sharing economy should not be subject to sector-specific rules – such as regulations aimed at hotels and taxi firms – unless they own assets and set the price of the service. But Katainen also stressed that such businesses should not become a “parallel informal economy” operating free of regulation. He said: “It’s clear that the collaborative economy cannot be a way to abuse labour. Neither is it a way to avoid paying tax.” [...] Member states should also distinguish between individuals providing services on an occasional basis and providers acting in a professional capacity, by establishing thresholds based on the level of activity, the guidelines recommend."
Fwiw, Sweden deregulated the taxi business long before Uber arrived. The first thing that happened was that they started ripping off literally everyone, especially tourists ("why work a full day when I can charge a few tourists hundreds of dollars over the the usual price and go home" or my favourite from that article "nobody who knows what they're doing uses my shitty service, therefore I have to overcharge to survive"). It's a rotten business.
Still not sure how a Brexit thread came to be about a Silicon Valley "disruptor", though.
posted by effbot at 4:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
From Grauniad Live update:
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Sajid Javid, the business secretary, has been holding talks with business leaders today, from groups like the CBI, to discuss the consequences of the Brexit vote. But trade unions were not invited. Frances O’Grady, the TUC general secretary, said:Same old, same old...
It is disappointing that the representatives of working people are not part of these talks. At a time when the government should be looking to heal the wounds of a divisive campaign, this is a backward step.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Still not sure how a Brexit thread came to be about a Silicon Valley "disruptor", though.
Really keen not to derail, but the Uber stuff is interesting because (dare I say) it's one of the few examples of a truly working class occupation that many of us commenting here have some direct unmediated access to (it certainly is for me in my metropolitan elite existence). Plus in London cabbies have been an indicator of social change in many ways, e.g many were Jewish immigrants from 1830 onwards.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:38 AM on June 28, 2016
Really keen not to derail, but the Uber stuff is interesting because (dare I say) it's one of the few examples of a truly working class occupation that many of us commenting here have some direct unmediated access to (it certainly is for me in my metropolitan elite existence). Plus in London cabbies have been an indicator of social change in many ways, e.g many were Jewish immigrants from 1830 onwards.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:38 AM on June 28, 2016
240 houses? Where are they going to be built?
We're a country clever enough to fit 15% of its population in a single city that occupies 0.6% of its land so I suspect we can figure it out. The housing crisis is at least in part due to the decline in social housing which is something which could be fixed with the correct political will. Of course its not aided by real estate in London turning into an investment opportunity where flats sit empty while accumulating value for millionaire owners.
And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?
These people will need to live somewhere and due to the global nature of global warming telling them to go somewhere else because we're worried about our trees isn't a solution. There are lots of challenges in accommodating humans to global warming, but environmentalist anti-migration arguments only really work if we forget that the environment we're protecting doesn't stop at national borders.
posted by nangua at 4:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
We're a country clever enough to fit 15% of its population in a single city that occupies 0.6% of its land so I suspect we can figure it out. The housing crisis is at least in part due to the decline in social housing which is something which could be fixed with the correct political will. Of course its not aided by real estate in London turning into an investment opportunity where flats sit empty while accumulating value for millionaire owners.
And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?
These people will need to live somewhere and due to the global nature of global warming telling them to go somewhere else because we're worried about our trees isn't a solution. There are lots of challenges in accommodating humans to global warming, but environmentalist anti-migration arguments only really work if we forget that the environment we're protecting doesn't stop at national borders.
posted by nangua at 4:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
If people voted Leave to stick it to the elite it's strange that we're talking about stopping poor Bulgarian taxi drivers earning enough money to support their families. Is sticking it to working class immigrants as well just a happy bonus?
No - the Tim Lott article spoke of the ire at the privilege of the elite. Anger that there were so very few "haves" and there were so many of us "have nots". The problem is that a lot of the "haves" were spinning the story as "the problem is that there are too many of you 'have-nots' and getting rid of some of them would help the rest of you have more", so that they woudn't catch wise to the fact that the real problem is that the "haves" just have way more than their fair share, and have been rigging the game so that they can get even more still.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
No - the Tim Lott article spoke of the ire at the privilege of the elite. Anger that there were so very few "haves" and there were so many of us "have nots". The problem is that a lot of the "haves" were spinning the story as "the problem is that there are too many of you 'have-nots' and getting rid of some of them would help the rest of you have more", so that they woudn't catch wise to the fact that the real problem is that the "haves" just have way more than their fair share, and have been rigging the game so that they can get even more still.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
To be fair, Silicon Valley disruptors are part of the bigger picture behind this result. Amazon and its ilk have had an enormous impact on the UK economy, putting many UK retail firms large and small out of business, and their reluctance to pay sufficient UK tax will have contributed to the austerity conditions in Britain of the past eight years.
If services that the British people had relied on for years had not been so badly weakened by governments insistent on budget cuts, the resentment over "pressure on services" would never have taken hold. That would have removed some of the cover for other sources of resentment in the Leave campaign.
posted by rory at 4:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
If services that the British people had relied on for years had not been so badly weakened by governments insistent on budget cuts, the resentment over "pressure on services" would never have taken hold. That would have removed some of the cover for other sources of resentment in the Leave campaign.
posted by rory at 4:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Vote Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith claimed that the UK would need to build 240 houses a day for 20 years to cope with increased demand.
>>>240 houses? Where are they going to be built?
According to this [PDF], 390,000 houses were built in 2015, that's 582/day. So... we are already building twice that?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
>>>240 houses? Where are they going to be built?
According to this [PDF], 390,000 houses were built in 2015, that's 582/day. So... we are already building twice that?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
Seems like another case of Leave quoting technically accurate but context-less numbers to scare people. Oh my what a surprise.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
The parliamentary party is at war with a membership which tragically deludes itself if it equates the Corbyn of that monstrously disengaged referendum campaign with anyone fit to lead a conga. Being a decent chap with values shared by young idealists and old lefties like me is not enough. It is not the beginning of enough. It isn’t the most lethargic sperm at the back of the queue swimming languidly toward the ovum of enough.
posted by Grangousier at 5:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
SNP MEP Alyn Smith gets standing ovation at European parliament.
posted by Gratishades at 5:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Gratishades at 5:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
"Scotland did not let you down, please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now!"
Alyn Smith, MEP gets a standing ovation from the European Parliament - less Farage.
posted by rongorongo at 5:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Alyn Smith, MEP gets a standing ovation from the European Parliament - less Farage.
posted by rongorongo at 5:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?
The UK Green party, who has probably spent more time thinking about the environment than whatever brexit forum you're getting your arguments from, is very much for an EU membership, partially because the EU's much stronger focus on environmental protection. From their manifesto:
Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia. Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.
The only thing you'll win by leaving is that nobody will notice how far behind the UK is on things like renewable energy, etc, since the UK will no longer show up in the comparisons.
posted by effbot at 5:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
The UK Green party, who has probably spent more time thinking about the environment than whatever brexit forum you're getting your arguments from, is very much for an EU membership, partially because the EU's much stronger focus on environmental protection. From their manifesto:
Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia. Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.
The only thing you'll win by leaving is that nobody will notice how far behind the UK is on things like renewable energy, etc, since the UK will no longer show up in the comparisons.
posted by effbot at 5:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [19 favorites]
Gratishades - we should work as a team! (the version I linked to gives you the full speech).
posted by rongorongo at 5:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 5:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Poor woman. I want to hug her.
Oh, yes, yes, yes... me too.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:14 AM on June 28, 2016
Oh, yes, yes, yes... me too.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:14 AM on June 28, 2016
The link that rongorongo and I posted there leading me to idle fantasies about the EU riding to the Scots rescue. The push-back would be huge from England though and it wouldn't be too hard to conceive of English nationalist tensions being stoked further. Fairly sure that the 21st Century wasn't supposed to be so interesting. Remember the "End of History" everyone?
(PS rongorongo's link is the full version.)
posted by Gratishades at 5:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
(PS rongorongo's link is the full version.)
posted by Gratishades at 5:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming?
Modern agriculture, especially livestock, is terrible for global warming actually.
posted by Dysk at 5:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Modern agriculture, especially livestock, is terrible for global warming actually.
posted by Dysk at 5:19 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's a video of Scottish MP Angus Roberston when he spoke at PMQ. (Sorry, its a FB video)
How come when I hear any Scottish MP speak I feel that this is how politicians should act?
posted by vacapinta at 5:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
How come when I hear any Scottish MP speak I feel that this is how politicians should act?
posted by vacapinta at 5:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I’ve seen a lot of people saying that the turnout among young people was only 36%, but I think it would be wise to take that figure with a large pinch of salt. We don’t actually know how turnout breaks down by age group for this referendum, the figures just aren’t available (an probably can’t be with a secret ballot). The figure that everyone is quoting is based on pre-referendum polling done by Sky Data . For a start, polling has been notoriously unreliable recently, but the methodology also makes me think that it’s unlikely to be an exact figure. They tweeted what this figure is based on:
“Based on 9+/10 certainty to vote, usually/always votes, voted/ineligible at GE2015”
This is a bit ambiguous. I’m not sure whether the 36% is all 18-24 year olds they asked who fit into one of the above categories, or whether they needed to be in all three to be counted. (That ‘ineligible to vote at GE2015’ is included makes me think it’s those who fit all categories, but I don’t know for certain.)
Given that the turnout for this referendum was 6 points higher that at GE2015 (at 72% to 66%), an estimate based on whether someone voted previously is likely to leave out a number of people who actually did end up voting this time. Especially given that the IPSOS-MORI estimate for turnout among 18-24 year olds at GE2015 was 43% (still low and still only an estimate, but higher than the Sky Data estimate). I personally think it’s unlikely that when overall turnout has gone up by 6 points, the turnout among the young would go down by 7. But really, we just don’t know what turnout among the young was.
The Sky Data figures are primarily useful as a relative measure of turnout, rather than absolute. That turnout among the young is lower than amongst the old is definitely borne out by the figures we do have from the referendum. The Financial Times has compared the median age of regions and the turnout, which does show a trend towards higher turnout in areas with higher median ages. There’s a definite case for saying that low turnout among the young had an effect on the result, but I don’t think the 36% figure should be uncritically repeated.
On a lighter note, the Corbyn Warnings twitter account is back in business.
posted by Law of Demeter at 5:26 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
“Based on 9+/10 certainty to vote, usually/always votes, voted/ineligible at GE2015”
This is a bit ambiguous. I’m not sure whether the 36% is all 18-24 year olds they asked who fit into one of the above categories, or whether they needed to be in all three to be counted. (That ‘ineligible to vote at GE2015’ is included makes me think it’s those who fit all categories, but I don’t know for certain.)
Given that the turnout for this referendum was 6 points higher that at GE2015 (at 72% to 66%), an estimate based on whether someone voted previously is likely to leave out a number of people who actually did end up voting this time. Especially given that the IPSOS-MORI estimate for turnout among 18-24 year olds at GE2015 was 43% (still low and still only an estimate, but higher than the Sky Data estimate). I personally think it’s unlikely that when overall turnout has gone up by 6 points, the turnout among the young would go down by 7. But really, we just don’t know what turnout among the young was.
The Sky Data figures are primarily useful as a relative measure of turnout, rather than absolute. That turnout among the young is lower than amongst the old is definitely borne out by the figures we do have from the referendum. The Financial Times has compared the median age of regions and the turnout, which does show a trend towards higher turnout in areas with higher median ages. There’s a definite case for saying that low turnout among the young had an effect on the result, but I don’t think the 36% figure should be uncritically repeated.
On a lighter note, the Corbyn Warnings twitter account is back in business.
posted by Law of Demeter at 5:26 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
You seem to be making a "the boat is full" argument while claiming not to be with the racists.
And the whole full argument is such a dogwhistle anyhow. Vol = vol (full = full) has been one of the rallying cries of the extreme right in the Netherlands for a very long time. See CD party.
I'm fascinated by all the Lexit arguments which, when the surface is scratched, seem to come back to immigration. I shouldn't have thought it would be so open. Again, the same thing happens in the Netherlands: "I'm not a racist, but it's actually true that..."
posted by frumiousb at 5:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [28 favorites]
And the whole full argument is such a dogwhistle anyhow. Vol = vol (full = full) has been one of the rallying cries of the extreme right in the Netherlands for a very long time. See CD party.
I'm fascinated by all the Lexit arguments which, when the surface is scratched, seem to come back to immigration. I shouldn't have thought it would be so open. Again, the same thing happens in the Netherlands: "I'm not a racist, but it's actually true that..."
posted by frumiousb at 5:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [28 favorites]
marienbad: "240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming? "
You do realize that even if immigrants don't come into the UK, they will still need places to live, right? Keeping immigrants out won't prevent housing from being built, it will just mean they're built somewhere else.
posted by Bugbread at 5:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
You do realize that even if immigrants don't come into the UK, they will still need places to live, right? Keeping immigrants out won't prevent housing from being built, it will just mean they're built somewhere else.
posted by Bugbread at 5:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
240 houses? Where are they going to be built?
You have one litre of water in a container. You pour 240 ml from that container to another container. The total volume of water is still the same.
Britain is leaving the European Union, not Planet Earth. (Though some Brexiters may hope).
posted by plep at 5:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
You have one litre of water in a container. You pour 240 ml from that container to another container. The total volume of water is still the same.
Britain is leaving the European Union, not Planet Earth. (Though some Brexiters may hope).
posted by plep at 5:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
"I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives."
Says a commodity trader who's been a politician for half his adult life. Ugh.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
Says a commodity trader who's been a politician for half his adult life. Ugh.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
Farage really is committed to his pub bore persona method acting isn’t he? You’d almost think it was the real him or something.
posted by pharm at 5:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by pharm at 5:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
If there is a Presidential Ban on any conversations between EU and UK officials, that's going to be particularly unfair on Scottish efforts to gain support for a pathway to continue in the EU come Indyref2. I have no doubt, however, that the good bureaucrats on all sides will be quite capable of ignoring any such ban in creative and useful ways.
Of course, Nicola could just deliver Art 50 notification herself - or, better, Alex Salmond, who is Troller-In-Chief. could do it. (Not serious, not serious.)
The only way to counter racism and exclusion is through political will from the top down, and that's been conspicuously lacking. A good friend of mine teaches English as a second language to Muslim women in inner-city London, for example, and you might think that's a good thing. It's much more than that, though: her lessons are often the only time these women are able to mix freely outside their families, to be without male consorts, and to be free to ask questions and discuss matters about British culture and life. It's where they can discuss how to cope with the problems and pressures of having children who are assimilating, about dealing with the state systems, about all the messy details of cultural and practical life. It's a sympathetic, supportive and extremely good thing my friend does - and she has had to spend SO MUCH of her time fighting not to lose all her funding, because why should immigrants get special treatment on the UK taxpayer's dime? Spongers.
The facfs are simple and echo throughout history: immigration, even of groups in large numbers who are culturally very different to the extant inhabitants, results in great things for everyone if you are prepared to deal with it fairly, sympathetically and practically. But it is very easy to traduce the process, which is why you need a strong, clear and continuing commitment to protect this process - which most certainly includes giving non-immigrants equivalent consideration in their lives - and once you get into the spiral of politicans seeking to get support by that traducing, it gets harder and harder and needs more and more strength of will from the political class to correct.
Thence to things like Brexit, and on to God knows where.
I don't know how to break that loop. Finding a narrative to engage young people in politics would be a good start - I don't blame the under 30s for not voting very much in the referendum, it was such a poisonous and unpleasant debate beforehand that for anyone with idealism and interest it was like gargling with someone else's vomit. Compare the Scottish independence referendum, where despite a lot of bluster and bollocks the level of civil discouse among the people was high, courteous and involving. Lots of young people were involved.
Not a lesson that Westminster seemed keen to learn from. Odd, that.
posted by Devonian at 5:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
Of course, Nicola could just deliver Art 50 notification herself - or, better, Alex Salmond, who is Troller-In-Chief. could do it. (Not serious, not serious.)
The only way to counter racism and exclusion is through political will from the top down, and that's been conspicuously lacking. A good friend of mine teaches English as a second language to Muslim women in inner-city London, for example, and you might think that's a good thing. It's much more than that, though: her lessons are often the only time these women are able to mix freely outside their families, to be without male consorts, and to be free to ask questions and discuss matters about British culture and life. It's where they can discuss how to cope with the problems and pressures of having children who are assimilating, about dealing with the state systems, about all the messy details of cultural and practical life. It's a sympathetic, supportive and extremely good thing my friend does - and she has had to spend SO MUCH of her time fighting not to lose all her funding, because why should immigrants get special treatment on the UK taxpayer's dime? Spongers.
The facfs are simple and echo throughout history: immigration, even of groups in large numbers who are culturally very different to the extant inhabitants, results in great things for everyone if you are prepared to deal with it fairly, sympathetically and practically. But it is very easy to traduce the process, which is why you need a strong, clear and continuing commitment to protect this process - which most certainly includes giving non-immigrants equivalent consideration in their lives - and once you get into the spiral of politicans seeking to get support by that traducing, it gets harder and harder and needs more and more strength of will from the political class to correct.
Thence to things like Brexit, and on to God knows where.
I don't know how to break that loop. Finding a narrative to engage young people in politics would be a good start - I don't blame the under 30s for not voting very much in the referendum, it was such a poisonous and unpleasant debate beforehand that for anyone with idealism and interest it was like gargling with someone else's vomit. Compare the Scottish independence referendum, where despite a lot of bluster and bollocks the level of civil discouse among the people was high, courteous and involving. Lots of young people were involved.
Not a lesson that Westminster seemed keen to learn from. Odd, that.
posted by Devonian at 5:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat.
We're in a different terrible racism boat. At least it isn't your cops beating up Poles.
waves sadly from the poop deck
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
We're in a different terrible racism boat. At least it isn't your cops beating up Poles.
waves sadly from the poop deck
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
"240 houses? Where are they going to be built? We only have so much land, much of it is farmland we need to feed the population. And as for concreting over the countryside... aren't trees and fields useful against global warming? "
There are estimated to be 1 million empty homes in the UK.
It's very easy to simply blame the housing shortage on the immigrants but it's a complicated subject with its roots in many poor decisions by successive UK governments.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
There are estimated to be 1 million empty homes in the UK.
It's very easy to simply blame the housing shortage on the immigrants but it's a complicated subject with its roots in many poor decisions by successive UK governments.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [25 favorites]
Very interesting perspectives and thoughts here, and very helpful sharing of information from a variety of sources. I'd like to thank the honourable members of MeFi for their contributions, which I've been reading over a number of days with great interest.
Particularly those whose input comes from a place of deep feeling on the issue - your efforts to share your perspectives are extremely appreciated, through which we can sense your great hearts, as well as hear your important words (and enjoy your wit, no less).
Thanks to all for your very, very valuable conversation.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [42 favorites]
Particularly those whose input comes from a place of deep feeling on the issue - your efforts to share your perspectives are extremely appreciated, through which we can sense your great hearts, as well as hear your important words (and enjoy your wit, no less).
Thanks to all for your very, very valuable conversation.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [42 favorites]
Scottish Parliament's first debate since Brexit streaming here.
posted by Devonian at 6:06 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 6:06 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
And America: be honest, you know you're in this same terrible boat.
Friend, it's a fucking armada over here.
posted by Chrischris at 6:14 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Friend, it's a fucking armada over here.
posted by Chrischris at 6:14 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Just got a work-related call from a vendor (small software company) in the U.K.; I am in Rhode Island, U.S.A.
Unsurprisingly the news came up, and the woman on the phone immediately switched from trying to set up a meeting for me with her boss, to talking about the vote. She was not pleased with the results, and seemed resigned to a lot of bad things to come. She warned that we in the U.S. would also have our own opportunity to vote this fall, with Trump seeming (to her) to be in the same ignorant mindset as the Leavers.
So it's not just Americans making this comparison -- we all know we got boats from the same lousy boatwright. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 6:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unsurprisingly the news came up, and the woman on the phone immediately switched from trying to set up a meeting for me with her boss, to talking about the vote. She was not pleased with the results, and seemed resigned to a lot of bad things to come. She warned that we in the U.S. would also have our own opportunity to vote this fall, with Trump seeming (to her) to be in the same ignorant mindset as the Leavers.
So it's not just Americans making this comparison -- we all know we got boats from the same lousy boatwright. :7(
posted by wenestvedt at 6:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's very easy to simply blame the housing shortage on the immigrants but it's a complicated subject with its roots in many poor decisions by successive UK governments.
It's Thatcher's bill, basically.
posted by Artw at 6:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
It's Thatcher's bill, basically.
posted by Artw at 6:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Given the legal status of devolution, I don’t think Nicola can (legally) deliver the notification. It has to come from Parliament, or it’s authorised representative.
It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.
posted by pharm at 6:26 AM on June 28, 2016
It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.
posted by pharm at 6:26 AM on June 28, 2016
More awfulness.
Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning
England fans in Europe, also Channel 4.
Both Facebook videos. No idea if you need an account, sorry.
I am officially through with the people who joined a coalition of racists pushing a nationalist agenda telling people they're not personally racist. From the bottom of my heart, fuck those people. Fuck them right into the ground.
Eye bleach: Romanians for Remainians
posted by vbfg at 6:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning
England fans in Europe, also Channel 4.
Both Facebook videos. No idea if you need an account, sorry.
I am officially through with the people who joined a coalition of racists pushing a nationalist agenda telling people they're not personally racist. From the bottom of my heart, fuck those people. Fuck them right into the ground.
Eye bleach: Romanians for Remainians
posted by vbfg at 6:28 AM on June 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
Excellent webcomic on the post-Brexit landscape and standing up to racism.
posted by rory at 6:29 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rory at 6:29 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.
Or, racists who cover for their racism by talking about being disenfranchised by elites.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Or, racists who cover for their racism by talking about being disenfranchised by elites.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Romainians for Remainians is sweet :) A little bit of warmth in a cold-hearted week.
posted by pharm at 6:32 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by pharm at 6:32 AM on June 28, 2016
Just really sticking it to the neoliberals in Brussels, that bloke.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'd make lazy comparisons to early 1930s Germany, but Weimar the debate?
posted by vbfg at 6:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 6:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US
There are definitely similarities, yes.
Broadly speaking, a bunch of politicians have spent years scapegoating minorities/immigrants/"others" to build up a base of single-issue (or near-single-issue) voters that would never dream of voting for anyone but them. Sometimes these politicians actually believed in the shit they were spewing, and sometimes it was just an opportunistic way to get a base of support that their opponents can't easily sway. Now, years later, they are all shocked, shocked that there's racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc rampant amongst their supporters to such a degree that their supporters are trying to burn it all down because they believe all the lies they've been fed will come true when they do.
posted by tocts at 6:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
There are definitely similarities, yes.
Broadly speaking, a bunch of politicians have spent years scapegoating minorities/immigrants/"others" to build up a base of single-issue (or near-single-issue) voters that would never dream of voting for anyone but them. Sometimes these politicians actually believed in the shit they were spewing, and sometimes it was just an opportunistic way to get a base of support that their opponents can't easily sway. Now, years later, they are all shocked, shocked that there's racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc rampant amongst their supporters to such a degree that their supporters are trying to burn it all down because they believe all the lies they've been fed will come true when they do.
posted by tocts at 6:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I love how there are people suggesting that the strong messaging coming out of Brussels is just pre-negotiation posturing and of course the EU will come to it's senses because they absolutely need the UK's economy to function.
Just dangle pushing the button on article 50 out there, make it seem like the UK is really serious and the EU will come rushing back to the table willing to give the Tories and UKIPs everything that they desire (no payments to the EU, Border Control, a Veto on EU regulations probably, etc, etc).
It's based upon a very delusional self regard for the UK's place in the current world order. Yes the UK is extremely useful in maintaining a link to the Anglophone world particularly in North America but Obama can call Hollande and Merkel just as easily as he can call Cameron. The UK is a convenient staging ground for the world of international finance to interact with the EU in a relative safe zone but it isn't critical.
But it seems like there is a refusal to accept that the sun has set on Empire or maybe there is an acceptance but a belief Empire can be resurrected under Farage and BOGO.
Already it seems like France and Germany and presumably Italy are preparing for creating a EU Defense Force of sorts. The UK wants to retreat into isolationism, the US always seems to be willing to engage in some sort of political calculus about interventionism, NATO might or might not be reliable in the long term.
With Putin signalling a desire to return to the previous borders of the Soviet Union even if it's slowly taking chunks out of the Ukraine and other Black Sea nation states and maybe gobbling up the Baltic states there is a degree of nervousness in the EU about having to stand alone vs a reemergent and expansionist Russia.
Regardless of the nationalist elements in Holland, the UK, Denmark, there seems to be a growing realization among European leaders that Western and Southern Europe cannot endlessly depend on the Aegis of US power to maintain western social democracies and that the development of a new axis of power less dependent on the whims of the US electorate and the geopolitical interests of the US is required to maintain the western european standards of Social Democracy.
As someone who genuinely believes that the development of a new pan-European federal state not just prevents European wars and promotes trade but can also promote freedom, civil rights and democracy in a way that sometimes the US fails at I definitely want the European experiment to succeed.
I grew up in a time of duality between international communism and western democracies. It kind of sucked. Later on it was replaced by American hegemony which we have come to realize has some bright spots and plenty of bad areas. Having a multi-polar world where there is a multiplicity of geopolitical players seems to be a possible improvement and having the EU and the US work together to promote international democracy seems ideal.
posted by vuron at 6:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
Just dangle pushing the button on article 50 out there, make it seem like the UK is really serious and the EU will come rushing back to the table willing to give the Tories and UKIPs everything that they desire (no payments to the EU, Border Control, a Veto on EU regulations probably, etc, etc).
It's based upon a very delusional self regard for the UK's place in the current world order. Yes the UK is extremely useful in maintaining a link to the Anglophone world particularly in North America but Obama can call Hollande and Merkel just as easily as he can call Cameron. The UK is a convenient staging ground for the world of international finance to interact with the EU in a relative safe zone but it isn't critical.
But it seems like there is a refusal to accept that the sun has set on Empire or maybe there is an acceptance but a belief Empire can be resurrected under Farage and BOGO.
Already it seems like France and Germany and presumably Italy are preparing for creating a EU Defense Force of sorts. The UK wants to retreat into isolationism, the US always seems to be willing to engage in some sort of political calculus about interventionism, NATO might or might not be reliable in the long term.
With Putin signalling a desire to return to the previous borders of the Soviet Union even if it's slowly taking chunks out of the Ukraine and other Black Sea nation states and maybe gobbling up the Baltic states there is a degree of nervousness in the EU about having to stand alone vs a reemergent and expansionist Russia.
Regardless of the nationalist elements in Holland, the UK, Denmark, there seems to be a growing realization among European leaders that Western and Southern Europe cannot endlessly depend on the Aegis of US power to maintain western social democracies and that the development of a new axis of power less dependent on the whims of the US electorate and the geopolitical interests of the US is required to maintain the western european standards of Social Democracy.
As someone who genuinely believes that the development of a new pan-European federal state not just prevents European wars and promotes trade but can also promote freedom, civil rights and democracy in a way that sometimes the US fails at I definitely want the European experiment to succeed.
I grew up in a time of duality between international communism and western democracies. It kind of sucked. Later on it was replaced by American hegemony which we have come to realize has some bright spots and plenty of bad areas. Having a multi-polar world where there is a multiplicity of geopolitical players seems to be a possible improvement and having the EU and the US work together to promote international democracy seems ideal.
posted by vuron at 6:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
Poor woman. I want to hug her.
An interesting thing from that interview is the host mentioning that Nigel Farage's wife is German.
The Dutch version of Nigel (Geert Wilders) also has a non-Dutch wife.
And one of the people in the Buzzfeed:We Visited The Town Where 75.6% Of People Voted To Leave The EU. article was a Turkish immigrant complaining about the Poles.
I went to Austria earlier this year and ran into a Dutch lady who'd been living there for a long time....she was complaining about the immigrantes.
It's just odd to see that.....I'm not really sure what to think of it.
(I'm an immigrant to Holland myself..hence the 2 dutch examples)
posted by Spumante at 6:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
An interesting thing from that interview is the host mentioning that Nigel Farage's wife is German.
The Dutch version of Nigel (Geert Wilders) also has a non-Dutch wife.
And one of the people in the Buzzfeed:We Visited The Town Where 75.6% Of People Voted To Leave The EU. article was a Turkish immigrant complaining about the Poles.
I went to Austria earlier this year and ran into a Dutch lady who'd been living there for a long time....she was complaining about the immigrantes.
It's just odd to see that.....I'm not really sure what to think of it.
(I'm an immigrant to Holland myself..hence the 2 dutch examples)
posted by Spumante at 6:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.
Again, it doesn't matter if you voted Leave and claim you're aren't racist. It's that you willingly sided with racists who are now feeling empowered by saying shit to POC and white people they've enthusiastically othered. Your moral high ground was done on the backs of people who are now being abused even more.
posted by Kitteh at 6:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Again, it doesn't matter if you voted Leave and claim you're aren't racist. It's that you willingly sided with racists who are now feeling empowered by saying shit to POC and white people they've enthusiastically othered. Your moral high ground was done on the backs of people who are now being abused even more.
posted by Kitteh at 6:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Re: Farage in the European Parliament today: He has one agenda now, which is to stand up in Brussels and be enough of an asshole to everyone to diminish our chances of repairing this.
At this point I'm clinging to the slender hope that Juncker's Presidential ban on informal negotiations, and the EP's vote for a swift move on Article 50, plus Kelvin MacKenzie's voicing of his doubts and fears in The Sun, will add up to the tabloids pushing a narrative that it would actually be more of a two-fingers-up to Europe to go "fuck you, we're staying in."
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
At this point I'm clinging to the slender hope that Juncker's Presidential ban on informal negotiations, and the EP's vote for a swift move on Article 50, plus Kelvin MacKenzie's voicing of his doubts and fears in The Sun, will add up to the tabloids pushing a narrative that it would actually be more of a two-fingers-up to Europe to go "fuck you, we're staying in."
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning
Awful. Kinda surprised by how long it took the crowd to react, tbh.
What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.
Yeah, that exactly. Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.
(Other crazy and scary stuff, sure, but not that.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Awful. Kinda surprised by how long it took the crowd to react, tbh.
What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.
Yeah, that exactly. Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.
(Other crazy and scary stuff, sure, but not that.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is some small hope here that our politicians won't be the shower of useless fuckwits they usually are and will vote against Brexit going through, given that they'd be acting on the mandate of the people they represent. On that point, I've heard a few people from West Belfast complain about the fact that their MPs are Sinn Fein and so don't take their seats in Parliament. Which maybe saves them the decision between gleefully pointing out that GB doesn't represent NI's interests, and letting it go ahead so that Scotland leaves and opens the door to the disintegration of the Union.
posted by billiebee at 6:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by billiebee at 6:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
A tiny request:
Since many of us (including me) are learning so much about Europe here... can all y'all do me a favo(u)r and call my country by its proper name? It's the Netherlands, not Holland.
Thanks, that'd be grand!
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
Since many of us (including me) are learning so much about Europe here... can all y'all do me a favo(u)r and call my country by its proper name? It's the Netherlands, not Holland.
Thanks, that'd be grand!
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.
I wonder how much of that comes down to more Americans considering themselves badasses (perhaps rightly so, I dunno). I know that I would probably never stand up to a racist guy or young person throwing epithets, because I would be scared that it would end up with me getting my teeth knocked out, bones broken, or worse. Its not that I wouldn't want to get involved or make a scene, but that I wouldn't want to get killed. When I see videos where people take on assholes in the US it always seems like the person taking them on is confident that if it came to blows they could totally hold their own.
posted by Bugbread at 6:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wonder how much of that comes down to more Americans considering themselves badasses (perhaps rightly so, I dunno). I know that I would probably never stand up to a racist guy or young person throwing epithets, because I would be scared that it would end up with me getting my teeth knocked out, bones broken, or worse. Its not that I wouldn't want to get involved or make a scene, but that I wouldn't want to get killed. When I see videos where people take on assholes in the US it always seems like the person taking them on is confident that if it came to blows they could totally hold their own.
posted by Bugbread at 6:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Channel 4 video from a tram in Manchester this morning
England fans in Europe, also Channel 4.
Both Facebook videos. No idea if you need an account, sorry.
I am officially through with the people who joined a coalition of racists pushing a nationalist agenda telling people they're not personally racist. From the bottom of my heart, fuck those people. Fuck them right into the ground.
Me too. Seeing this happening in my own city, knowing that many of my friends are scared to go into the city centre for fear of encountering little shitty thugs. Mates of mine who have been going out, engaging in British society, going to baby and toddler groups who are now worried that they will get abused in front of their kids.
This vote enabled that and you can ignore that reality as much as you like. If you look towards immigrants as the route of the problem with the NHS, housing, education, whatever, you are wilfully ignoring reality and you are enabling that shitty little thug.
posted by threetwentytwo at 6:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.
Yeah, that exactly. Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.
(Other crazy and scary stuff, sure, but not that.)
British culture has some good points. The extreme aversion to making or being involved in 'a scene' is not one of them. That and the tabloid-stoked fear that anyone wearing a hoodie or baseball cap is probably carrying a knife makes the perceived risks (physical and social) of speaking up or stepping in too high for many, many people.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that exactly. Say what you will of American race relations, but that shit would not fly on a train or bus in any major American city I've been in.
(Other crazy and scary stuff, sure, but not that.)
British culture has some good points. The extreme aversion to making or being involved in 'a scene' is not one of them. That and the tabloid-stoked fear that anyone wearing a hoodie or baseball cap is probably carrying a knife makes the perceived risks (physical and social) of speaking up or stepping in too high for many, many people.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Which is, needless to say, a shitty state of affairs and part of the enabling of racist attacks.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:55 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Happy Dave at 6:55 AM on June 28, 2016
More awfulness.
And in the darker corners of Corbynland, it's the Jews. Always the Jews.
I don't think I've seen a single tweet from a UK politician today that doesn't have people screaming about zionists in the replies :-/
posted by effbot at 6:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
And in the darker corners of Corbynland, it's the Jews. Always the Jews.
I don't think I've seen a single tweet from a UK politician today that doesn't have people screaming about zionists in the replies :-/
posted by effbot at 6:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Did you know if you needed David Tennant reading Scottish tweets about Trump in your life? If not, here's your chance to find out!
posted by zombieflanders at 6:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [14 favorites]
Romainians for Remainians - if anyone is in need of a Romanian mother, drop me a MeMail! You can drink, you can smoke, and we'll bitch about the world order until all hours.
All the Romanians I've ever spoken to have said how nice it is in Romania! ... I would have loved to explore Europe more, see what it's like in these far-flung places, but that's not going to happen anymore.
winterhill, you can still come! It's still a short, cheap flight away and will remain that way even if the UK soon faces visa complications. And, for now, it's still beautiful, though if our own fuckwits had their way it'll soon become a desert. Thank dog for EU env. regulations!
posted by miorita at 7:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
All the Romanians I've ever spoken to have said how nice it is in Romania! ... I would have loved to explore Europe more, see what it's like in these far-flung places, but that's not going to happen anymore.
winterhill, you can still come! It's still a short, cheap flight away and will remain that way even if the UK soon faces visa complications. And, for now, it's still beautiful, though if our own fuckwits had their way it'll soon become a desert. Thank dog for EU env. regulations!
posted by miorita at 7:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
When it comes to Scotland it depends on two people, Mariano Rajoy (or his successor) and Charles Michel.
If they say no any work Scotland undertakes will be for naught. Hopefully they can understand the difficult situation that Scotland is in and they don't break away as a separatist state but to remain as part of something bigger than themselves.
posted by Talez at 7:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
If they say no any work Scotland undertakes will be for naught. Hopefully they can understand the difficult situation that Scotland is in and they don't break away as a separatist state but to remain as part of something bigger than themselves.
posted by Talez at 7:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's likely also, partially, a lack of priming. If you're used to or can reasonably expect to witness awfulness like that, you imagine yourself in those situations, and you imagine how you would like to react. Studies have shown that priming actually increases the chances of living that out when it actually happens.
That, and an altercation like this in America, will--at its worst conclusion--involve guns not knives. And that makes it orders of magnitude more dangerous to bystanders. If its between having you and your kids caught in crossfire, or working together to make sure some drunken racist lout is neutralized, I know where most Americans (whose tolerance for casual violence is perhaps a bit more developed, but YMMV) would come down.
Also, do you not have transit police in the UK?
posted by Chrischris at 7:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
That, and an altercation like this in America, will--at its worst conclusion--involve guns not knives. And that makes it orders of magnitude more dangerous to bystanders. If its between having you and your kids caught in crossfire, or working together to make sure some drunken racist lout is neutralized, I know where most Americans (whose tolerance for casual violence is perhaps a bit more developed, but YMMV) would come down.
Also, do you not have transit police in the UK?
posted by Chrischris at 7:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
In re transit, racism and US-vs-UK:
1. People say and get away with shitty stuff on public transit in the US all the time. I've heard "speak English" and other stuff. It's one reason I bike so much. People say shitty stuff about Somalis on public transit here in MPLS. It does not generally rise to the level of that video, but I bet six months ago most British people didn't think things would rise to the level of that video.
2. In the US, most people who ride public transit are poorer, unless you're talking NY or San Francisco. There's less social distance, so you are much more likely to get pushback if you say shitty stuff. If you're just some random working class person, there's not as much social distance between you and some other random working class person who is an immigrant.
3. I cannot overstate the importance of scaffolding - every time I have successfully responded to a situation of injustice or social failure (which is, like, maybe 5% of the times I wish I had) it has been because I had imagined something like that happening and imagined what I would do. "What would I do if I saw someone passed out on the sidewalk?" "What would I do if I saw an older dude harassing a girl?" Etc.
This is just all so horrifying and sad and scary and very, very ominous. I have been so worried that if we end up with a bad election here we'll have racists rioting and seeking out people to beat up, and that seems indeed to be what they do. I am just so sorry this is happening.
(Also, yes, we have a lot of guns here in the US, but I have witnessed about umpteen gazillion bus altercations between stroppy, assholish people and they just don't pull out their guns and start blasting. I'm not saying it literally cannot happen, but "I am afraid to speak up against racism because the racist might blow me away" is not a realistic assessment of public transit in the US. )
posted by Frowner at 7:14 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
1. People say and get away with shitty stuff on public transit in the US all the time. I've heard "speak English" and other stuff. It's one reason I bike so much. People say shitty stuff about Somalis on public transit here in MPLS. It does not generally rise to the level of that video, but I bet six months ago most British people didn't think things would rise to the level of that video.
2. In the US, most people who ride public transit are poorer, unless you're talking NY or San Francisco. There's less social distance, so you are much more likely to get pushback if you say shitty stuff. If you're just some random working class person, there's not as much social distance between you and some other random working class person who is an immigrant.
3. I cannot overstate the importance of scaffolding - every time I have successfully responded to a situation of injustice or social failure (which is, like, maybe 5% of the times I wish I had) it has been because I had imagined something like that happening and imagined what I would do. "What would I do if I saw someone passed out on the sidewalk?" "What would I do if I saw an older dude harassing a girl?" Etc.
This is just all so horrifying and sad and scary and very, very ominous. I have been so worried that if we end up with a bad election here we'll have racists rioting and seeking out people to beat up, and that seems indeed to be what they do. I am just so sorry this is happening.
(Also, yes, we have a lot of guns here in the US, but I have witnessed about umpteen gazillion bus altercations between stroppy, assholish people and they just don't pull out their guns and start blasting. I'm not saying it literally cannot happen, but "I am afraid to speak up against racism because the racist might blow me away" is not a realistic assessment of public transit in the US. )
posted by Frowner at 7:14 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
Chrischris, yes we have transit police but you’re not going to find them on every tram in Manchester.
posted by pharm at 7:14 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by pharm at 7:14 AM on June 28, 2016
Did you know if you needed David Tennant reading Scottish tweets about Trump in your life?
I love you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I love you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's likely also, partially, a lack of priming.
an altercation like this in America is.... orders of magnitude more dangerous to bystanders...working together to make sure some drunken racist lout is neutralized
It's both. The culture is more confrontational, and there's more perceived hazard to everyone.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:16 AM on June 28, 2016
an altercation like this in America is.... orders of magnitude more dangerous to bystanders...working together to make sure some drunken racist lout is neutralized
It's both. The culture is more confrontational, and there's more perceived hazard to everyone.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:16 AM on June 28, 2016
Yes, we have British Transport Police. You can call them on 0800 40 50 40, or text them on 61016 if you want to report an incident without anyone noticing you doing so.
posted by Catseye at 7:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Catseye at 7:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
People say and get away with shitty stuff on public transit in the US all the time.
Absolutely true, I just don't hear much of this particular thing. And there is a crowd reaction to outright physical intimidation, typically.
In the US, most people who ride public transit are poorer, unless you're talking NY or San Francisco. There's less social distance, so you are much more likely to get pushback if you say shitty stuff.
I was just typing something to this effect, but you said it better. I agree, this has to be a big part of it.
"I am afraid to speak up against racism because the racist might blow me away"
It was meant the other way around -- the stakes are higher in being a bystander to some escalating confrontation in an enclosed space.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:20 AM on June 28, 2016
Absolutely true, I just don't hear much of this particular thing. And there is a crowd reaction to outright physical intimidation, typically.
In the US, most people who ride public transit are poorer, unless you're talking NY or San Francisco. There's less social distance, so you are much more likely to get pushback if you say shitty stuff.
I was just typing something to this effect, but you said it better. I agree, this has to be a big part of it.
"I am afraid to speak up against racism because the racist might blow me away"
It was meant the other way around -- the stakes are higher in being a bystander to some escalating confrontation in an enclosed space.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:20 AM on June 28, 2016
Matt Taibbi: The Reaction To Brexit Is The Reason Brexit Happened
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:20 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Manchester trams do not have conductors - because most of the tram lines are extensions of the original commuter rail network they didn’t need them to enforce ticket use as that could be done at the train stations (which were designed for that need when they were built).
posted by pharm at 7:25 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by pharm at 7:25 AM on June 28, 2016
240 houses? Where are they going to be built?
Classic "the boat is full" xenophobic misdirection.
In 2015, there were just over 390 housing starts per day in the UK. For those who may be struggling with the math, 240 is quite a bit smaller than 390.
So if the numbers aren't actually the problem, perhaps it's really something else.
I wonder what that could possibly be?
posted by dersins at 7:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
Classic "the boat is full" xenophobic misdirection.
In 2015, there were just over 390 housing starts per day in the UK. For those who may be struggling with the math, 240 is quite a bit smaller than 390.
So if the numbers aren't actually the problem, perhaps it's really something else.
I wonder what that could possibly be?
posted by dersins at 7:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
Matt Taibbi: The Reaction To Brexit Is The Reason Brexit Happened
"unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels"
Sigh.
posted by effbot at 7:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
"unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels"
Sigh.
posted by effbot at 7:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Good to see Taibbi join Greenwald in the list of scolds reminding us that no this isn't about xenophobic nativist tendencies in the UK which have been part and parcel of the British culture since fucking forever and are normally hidden behind a facade of polite genteel conversation but is in fact yet another reason why the elites should be marched to the gullotines.
More divisive BS that more or less argues the opposite side of the same coin as the UKIPs.
posted by vuron at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
More divisive BS that more or less argues the opposite side of the same coin as the UKIPs.
posted by vuron at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
It does seem that some of the same forces that have driven the Leave vote in the UK are also being felt in the US - a disenfranchised class kicking back against an elite who have taken their votes and/or apathy for granted is one element clearly.There are big parallels, but I also think there are some glaring differences. One of them is that Trump is a very gendered phenomenon: he appeals primarily to disenfranchised-feeling white men, and his overt misogyny is a turnoff to many comparable women. I don't think there was anything similar going on with the Brexit movement, which is closely tied to race/ ethnicity, region, and class but, as far as I can tell, not really to gender. The American electorate is also more racially diverse than the British electorate is, which limits the power of overt xenophobia in national elections. (It can still be very powerful in local and statewide elections.) Finally, the polling on Brexit suggested that Leave had a chance, and conventional wisdom was that the polling was wrong. This could all change by November, but Trump is way behind in the polls at the moment, and his numbers are dropping.
Like I said: I'm not denying the parallels. Populist nationalism seems to be having a moment in a lot of places right now, and it's really sad and scary. And I'm not complacent about Trump: I've already started knocking doors to register voters for the Clinton campaign. But I'm seeing some "Brexit means that the US is doomed" scare-mongering, and I don't think there's any reason to overstate that case.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Friend of mine no longer feels safe walking around on the streets of Manchester: 'what might happen alone at night'. No idea what to say to reassure him and never would have thought I would have to.
posted by litleozy at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by litleozy at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Do you think Greenwald and Taibbi have a chatroom where they formulate talking points?
posted by vuron at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by vuron at 7:38 AM on June 28, 2016
It's worth following the #ScotlandInEurope hashtag on Twitter right now. Things are changing rapidly as the Scottish Parliament is having a serious debate about the implications of Brexit.
posted by kariebookish at 7:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by kariebookish at 7:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do you think Greenwald and Taibbi have a chatroom where they formulate talking points?
https://theintercept.com/2014/10/30/inside-story-matt-taibbis-departure-first-look-media/
Not sure, but they've certainly been aligned in the past.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 AM on June 28, 2016
https://theintercept.com/2014/10/30/inside-story-matt-taibbis-departure-first-look-media/
Not sure, but they've certainly been aligned in the past.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 AM on June 28, 2016
You can also watch the Scottish Parliament's debate live, if you're so inclined: http://www.scottishparliament.tv/
posted by Catseye at 7:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 7:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Taibbi does at least understand why if the referendum was run again, the Leave vote would probably be even bigger.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
but is in fact yet another reason why the elites should be marched to the gullotines.
To be fair, a study of history shows that periodic pruning of the elites is useful for societal and economic development. Plus, the press is very eager to start using "Brexecutions" every chance they can get.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
To be fair, a study of history shows that periodic pruning of the elites is useful for societal and economic development. Plus, the press is very eager to start using "Brexecutions" every chance they can get.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wind of change... Siemens freezes new UK wind power investment following Brexit vote
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Great Betrayal: "A generation of failed leaders have sold out entire countries to the ultra rich. Betrayed, desperate, enraged people are turning to strongmen and thugs, demagogues and bullies. Who are legitimizing actual political assassination. A very great line is being crossed."
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
winterhill - if you need an accountability partner, memail me. Happy to review your CV and give you any help I can to identify the best websites for searching for vacancies etc.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Happy Dave at 7:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
winterhill - I'm also available for a chat as you know, although I'd be mainly able to assist with Glasgow queries.
posted by kariebookish at 7:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kariebookish at 7:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Boris Telegraph y'day column was 'written too quickly' and he's tired. Friends agree sloppy & sent mixed messages & will be vetted in future"
Guess they'll confiscate his password, or something.
posted by effbot at 8:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Guess they'll confiscate his password, or something.
posted by effbot at 8:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
I convinced that this whole Brexit vote is probably an elaborate publicity stunt to announce the release of a reboot of Terry Nations Survivor series from the 70s (yes I know there has already been a sort of reboot) but this time instead of a pandemic flu released by accident the story is a "satire" about how xenophobic nationalist MPs trigger a collapse of the world economic system in order to result in the rise of a fascist state but they are unprepared for the actual repercussions.
You know because then I could imagine that by the end of series 3 it's revealed to be an elaborate Milgram experiment.
posted by vuron at 8:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
You know because then I could imagine that by the end of series 3 it's revealed to be an elaborate Milgram experiment.
posted by vuron at 8:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Guess they'll confiscate his password, or something.
guppy1234
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
guppy1234
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:02 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
"A generation of failed leaders have sold out entire countries to the ultra rich"
Or, in the words of Frank Turner...
--
As as American kid, I grew up watching British TV and listening to music from the U.K. Later I traveled there as a teen-ager, spent half a year there in college, and my wife and I went on a vacation in the 90s. I have friends there still...and it breaks my damn heart to see a system and an economy and a whole country that was deliberately broken just so some people could make private gains.
Good luck, Scotland. Good luck, those of you in the U.K. who haven't given up to fear. Hang on!
posted by wenestvedt at 8:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Or, in the words of Frank Turner...
--
As as American kid, I grew up watching British TV and listening to music from the U.K. Later I traveled there as a teen-ager, spent half a year there in college, and my wife and I went on a vacation in the 90s. I have friends there still...and it breaks my damn heart to see a system and an economy and a whole country that was deliberately broken just so some people could make private gains.
Good luck, Scotland. Good luck, those of you in the U.K. who haven't given up to fear. Hang on!
posted by wenestvedt at 8:03 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Some clarity on legal options. David Allen Green has just confirmed that Article 50, that officially starts Brexit, can't be invoked with the PM conveying the message in interpretative dance, invoking Article 25 twice or shaking his/her head while mouthing yes.
Statistically though, Regrexit isn't a thing. British voters overwhelmingly want to leave the EU, with 75% of Leavers wanting to leave _immediately_. 42% of Leavers said immigration was an issue, while only 8% of Remainers thought so.
And oh, Murdoch thinks leaving the EU is a good thing.
posted by the cydonian at 8:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Statistically though, Regrexit isn't a thing. British voters overwhelmingly want to leave the EU, with 75% of Leavers wanting to leave _immediately_. 42% of Leavers said immigration was an issue, while only 8% of Remainers thought so.
And oh, Murdoch thinks leaving the EU is a good thing.
posted by the cydonian at 8:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
BBC: "Pressure has eased on UK financial markets after two days of turmoil in the wake of the Brexit vote, with the FTSE 100 share index opening higher.
In mid-afternoon trading, the index was up 2.75% at 6,146.69, while the FTSE 250 had gained 3.3%.
The FTSE 100 lost 5.6% in the previous two trading sessions, while the more UK-focused FTSE 250 had slumped 13.7%.
The pound also showed signs of recovery, rising 1.2% against the dollar to $1.3382."
(At the end of the article it says: "When asked if there would be tax rises and spending cuts, he [Osbourne] said: "Yes, absolutely." - Right. BBC, 9th November, 2015 - Spending review: George Osborne 'secures deals' on 30% cuts." This guys entire ideology is predicated on making cuts. And he still hasn't met his targets.)
posted by marienbad at 8:10 AM on June 28, 2016
In mid-afternoon trading, the index was up 2.75% at 6,146.69, while the FTSE 250 had gained 3.3%.
The FTSE 100 lost 5.6% in the previous two trading sessions, while the more UK-focused FTSE 250 had slumped 13.7%.
The pound also showed signs of recovery, rising 1.2% against the dollar to $1.3382."
(At the end of the article it says: "When asked if there would be tax rises and spending cuts, he [Osbourne] said: "Yes, absolutely." - Right. BBC, 9th November, 2015 - Spending review: George Osborne 'secures deals' on 30% cuts." This guys entire ideology is predicated on making cuts. And he still hasn't met his targets.)
posted by marienbad at 8:10 AM on June 28, 2016
Guess they'll confiscate his password, or something.
Surely, GurlzGurlzGurlz
posted by marienbad at 8:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surely, GurlzGurlzGurlz
posted by marienbad at 8:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
None of Juncker's bluster in Bild above changes the legal position of the UK as a member of the EU. He has a point, but his comments in a tabloid have no more legal standing than my posts on MetaFilter in terms of the situation here.
Sadly, it doesn’t matter if it’s Juncker or someone even more unlikeable saying it, it could be Lord Baelish saying it, what he’s saying in that particular quote from the interview linked by infini above is, unfortunately, a matter of fact. The settlement he’s talking about was negotiated by the European Council, not Juncker and his staff alone, it was "a legally binding and irreversible decision by all 28 leaders", and they did spend countless days and nights negotiating those concessions with the UK (and let’s remember, that was on top of all other opt-outs and special concessions the UK always enjoyed as a special status member) - and it was negotiated specifically because of the referendum, and yet that played no role whatsoever in the campaign, that’s a fact too.
The rest of that quote about complaining about Europe and then not convincing anyone that you’re for Remain is also under everyone’s eyes. The disappointment about all that has been expressed by many others in Europe, even in stronger terms.
Another quote from the interview, "the will of the British people must now be put into effect as quickly as possible", that’s almost verbatim from the joint statement by the EU leaders, so that too is not just Juncker’s own blustering opinion.
"For decades British governments have played a double game: getting all the benefits of EU membership while opting out of its burdens, in the meantime undermining and even blackmailing the club from within" - this is not from Juncker, but an opinion piece in in today’s Guardian. I’m not endorsing the conclusion in the headline, but I think it’s worth a read for a look into a less UK-centric insular perspective than the one currently dominating the debate. The comments below it are terrible, but here’s one worth a read too:
Sadly, it doesn’t matter if it’s Juncker or someone even more unlikeable saying it, it could be Lord Baelish saying it, what he’s saying in that particular quote from the interview linked by infini above is, unfortunately, a matter of fact. The settlement he’s talking about was negotiated by the European Council, not Juncker and his staff alone, it was "a legally binding and irreversible decision by all 28 leaders", and they did spend countless days and nights negotiating those concessions with the UK (and let’s remember, that was on top of all other opt-outs and special concessions the UK always enjoyed as a special status member) - and it was negotiated specifically because of the referendum, and yet that played no role whatsoever in the campaign, that’s a fact too.
The rest of that quote about complaining about Europe and then not convincing anyone that you’re for Remain is also under everyone’s eyes. The disappointment about all that has been expressed by many others in Europe, even in stronger terms.
Another quote from the interview, "the will of the British people must now be put into effect as quickly as possible", that’s almost verbatim from the joint statement by the EU leaders, so that too is not just Juncker’s own blustering opinion.
"For decades British governments have played a double game: getting all the benefits of EU membership while opting out of its burdens, in the meantime undermining and even blackmailing the club from within" - this is not from Juncker, but an opinion piece in in today’s Guardian. I’m not endorsing the conclusion in the headline, but I think it’s worth a read for a look into a less UK-centric insular perspective than the one currently dominating the debate. The comments below it are terrible, but here’s one worth a read too:
I am both Dutch and British - and like Joris Luyendijk I live in Britain. He formulates very well the huge frustration built up with British behaviour in the EU over the last decades. Britain, a country I deeply love despite its Euro-foibles, and where I have made my life, really does have an over-inflated sense of its own worth compared to the rest of the EU, and does need to come to accept a more realistic sense of its position in the world. Outside the EU this is more likely to happen than if it remains inside. The Brexit has also created a huge amount of anger towards Britain on the continent amongst both political leadership and ordinary people, something that will not die done quickly. This was a crisis no one on the continent wanted, and which none of them had a vote in, something hardly discussed during the Referendum. I canvassed for Remain, but was severely disappointed, like Luyendijk with many of its arguments. To people on the continent the EU is much more than a mere market. The likelihood of the EU falling apart is quite low in my estimation as a debate like the frankly delusional debate that occured here which mostly dealt in fantastical lies would be difficult to imagine ever occuring in another European country. We simply have received much stronger inoculations against delusions of national grandeur through our history. I heartily wish that Britain stays in the EU, but I do share the frustrations of many Europeans with Britain's constant obstructionism in the EU. If Britain does go for a Brexit, I hope that Scotland, Northern Ireland and even Wales manage to remain in (I predict that Wales will see a strong increase in nationalism over the next few years, rapidly catching up with Scotland in that regard, if Brexit really goes ahead). I am not sure whether Britain would still be welcome in the EU even if it managed to reverse democratically the outcome of this referendum, though I would be very happy if it was as it would spare millions of people unnecessary suffering.posted by bitteschoen at 8:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
Any thoughts on measures to strengthen financial E.U. regulations that were making progress but hindered by the U.K. because they'd be damaging to the City? We should lobby MEPs to support them now, mostly because they might get through while the U.K. cannot argue as strongly, but also because they might divide City's position on Brexit. :)
posted by jeffburdges at 8:26 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by jeffburdges at 8:26 AM on June 28, 2016
The likelihood of the EU falling apart is quite low in my estimation as a debate like the frankly delusional debate that occured here which mostly dealt in fantastical lies would be difficult to imagine ever occuring in another European country.
This does not square with my experience of Italian politics when living there...
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
This does not square with my experience of Italian politics when living there...
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:33 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
...and the next chapter begins: Labour MPs vote no confidence in Corbyn 172 to 40
posted by effbot at 8:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by effbot at 8:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
For those still labouring (ha) under the illusion that Leaving is somehow better for the working classes: Michael Ford QC’s legal opinion states: “All the social rights in employment currently required by EU law would be potentially vulnerable”. He lists those rights that he believes are most at risk post-Brexit from a government with a deregulatory agenda. They include rights to properly-paid holidays, protections for agency workers, health and safety protections, and protections from some forms of employer discrimination – such as compensation rates, and protections for pregnant workers and older workers.
posted by billiebee at 8:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 8:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
Shit a brick. That's quite a margin.
posted by Happy Dave at 8:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Happy Dave at 8:37 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Shit a brick. That's quite a margin.
It was mentioned on the news that 90 MPs were needed to form a full ministerial team.
posted by popcassady at 8:41 AM on June 28, 2016
It was mentioned on the news that 90 MPs were needed to form a full ministerial team.
posted by popcassady at 8:41 AM on June 28, 2016
For those still labouring (ha) under the illusion that Leaving is somehow better for the working classes: Michael Ford QC’s legal opinion states: “All the social rights in employment currently required by EU law would be potentially vulnerable”. He lists those rights that he believes are most at risk post-Brexit from a government with a deregulatory agenda. They include rights to properly-paid holidays, protections for agency workers, health and safety protections, and protections from some forms of employer discrimination – such as compensation rates, and protections for pregnant workers and older workers.
posted by billiebee at 8:37 AM on June 28 [+] [!]
Sounds distinctly like they want a US style employment marketplace.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 8:37 AM on June 28 [+] [!]
Sounds distinctly like they want a US style employment marketplace.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Good work on imploding, Labour.
OK. So we're all agreed, right? Scots run the UK from here on out?
I'll come to the UK, set up shop and vote for it to help.
posted by Talez at 8:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK. So we're all agreed, right? Scots run the UK from here on out?
I'll come to the UK, set up shop and vote for it to help.
posted by Talez at 8:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
That Luyendijk opinion piece is pretty good.
Basically the UK has been undermining the EU from the inside for various reasons (typically based upon a more free market ideology - most of the dominant EU countries are much more comfortable in more state intervention in the economy). Some might see that as the UK promoting Freedom but it also has arguably resulted in more pro-Corporate stances to be taken.
The corporations have already come to the proper conclusion that it's best to negotiate with the central authority of a federal state rather than the individual nations. A single body of regulations is easier to deal with than 27 even if the overall body of regulations imposes more controls on corporate power.
The article rightly recognizes that the balance of power regarding economic policy has already shifted to Brussels in large part. It's just the balance of power regarding political power still firmly resides within the individual nation states.
The conservatives in the UK rightly understand that the EU is slowly making shifts to strengthen to ties binding individual member states to the EU and the UK has been fighting those ties since the beginning because they were perceived to not coincide with British interests. In many ways this is correct, they conflict with the interests of the Tory elite who have a vested interest in reversing as many of the social democratic policies of the past as possible. Being tied to the EU is binding the UK to a regime of social democracy that frankly many in the UK are uncomfortable about.
Thus far the UK has been able to blackmail the EU into backing down or weakening most attempts to forge a pan-European federal state. I guess that has been a good thing for some values of good but it has also resulted in much slower advances on a host of civil rights issues.
The UK leaving could hurt the Single Market in the short term but the fundamentals are still pretty decent. On the political front however the UK leaving couldn't be better for those that want the EU to generate a more solid federal state. Less US Articles of Confederation and more US post Federalist Papers and Constitution.
The double bonus of course is that the UK will be forced by economic realities to accept membership in the EFTA and EEA so they'll still be subject to most EU regulations while also no longer being capable of gumming up the works.
The EU ministers are no doubt expressing shock and concern in public but behind closed doors they are probably expressing the opinion that this crisis if handled correctly could be the best thing that happened to the EU in a long time.
I guess too bad for the 67 million Britons though
posted by vuron at 8:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
Basically the UK has been undermining the EU from the inside for various reasons (typically based upon a more free market ideology - most of the dominant EU countries are much more comfortable in more state intervention in the economy). Some might see that as the UK promoting Freedom but it also has arguably resulted in more pro-Corporate stances to be taken.
The corporations have already come to the proper conclusion that it's best to negotiate with the central authority of a federal state rather than the individual nations. A single body of regulations is easier to deal with than 27 even if the overall body of regulations imposes more controls on corporate power.
The article rightly recognizes that the balance of power regarding economic policy has already shifted to Brussels in large part. It's just the balance of power regarding political power still firmly resides within the individual nation states.
The conservatives in the UK rightly understand that the EU is slowly making shifts to strengthen to ties binding individual member states to the EU and the UK has been fighting those ties since the beginning because they were perceived to not coincide with British interests. In many ways this is correct, they conflict with the interests of the Tory elite who have a vested interest in reversing as many of the social democratic policies of the past as possible. Being tied to the EU is binding the UK to a regime of social democracy that frankly many in the UK are uncomfortable about.
Thus far the UK has been able to blackmail the EU into backing down or weakening most attempts to forge a pan-European federal state. I guess that has been a good thing for some values of good but it has also resulted in much slower advances on a host of civil rights issues.
The UK leaving could hurt the Single Market in the short term but the fundamentals are still pretty decent. On the political front however the UK leaving couldn't be better for those that want the EU to generate a more solid federal state. Less US Articles of Confederation and more US post Federalist Papers and Constitution.
The double bonus of course is that the UK will be forced by economic realities to accept membership in the EFTA and EEA so they'll still be subject to most EU regulations while also no longer being capable of gumming up the works.
The EU ministers are no doubt expressing shock and concern in public but behind closed doors they are probably expressing the opinion that this crisis if handled correctly could be the best thing that happened to the EU in a long time.
I guess too bad for the 67 million Britons though
posted by vuron at 8:43 AM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
Yeah, I think the Labour MPs that were willing to give Corbyn a chance to show his quality & take the fight to the Tories have seen enough & decided that he isn’t fit to lead. It’s not his policies that are the problem - it’s him.
posted by pharm at 8:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by pharm at 8:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, Labour, whatever you do next better be fucking good.
posted by Artw at 8:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Unless they can change the voting rules, we will vote him back with a bigger majority. His views - actual beliefs - simply connect with so many people. He knows he has the numbers to prove it.
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:45 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 8:45 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, Labour, whatever you do next better be fucking good.
I don't know a lot about Labour, so this may sound dumb, but the sense that I'm getting is that "good" could here mean "not a circular firing squad". I admit this sense is somewhat informed by my history of watching the Democratic Party in action.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know a lot about Labour, so this may sound dumb, but the sense that I'm getting is that "good" could here mean "not a circular firing squad". I admit this sense is somewhat informed by my history of watching the Democratic Party in action.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess too bad for the 67 million Britons though
I don't understand this sentence in the context of what comes before.
Bad for the British government for sure, which no longer gets a seat at the table and loses power.
But if the UK is as you put it compelled by economic realities to stay within the EEA, that's good for the people themselves - they get to keep the same workplace etc. protections (by being within the EEA) and also get to retain rights of free movement!
In fact, more workplace rights because EU integration accelerates from hereon - in your scenario! The benefits flow back to EEA members, such as citizens of the UK.
posted by plep at 8:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Alright here's how I think it will shape up. Everyone keeps kicking Article 50 down the road for as long as possible. The new Tory PM tries frantically to secure some kind of Norway Plus deal - the main objectives are securing single market access and passporting rights to protect the City. So free movement will have to be part of the deal, partly disguised by some points-based racist sprinklings falling on non-EU immigrants. In order to sell and legitimise the vastly shrunken Leave offer, the Tory PM then calls a general election and offers the punters a choice between that and what he or she will be hoping to present as sour grapes undemocratic Remain arguments from the opposition, assuming there's a functioning opposition by then. Labour then soaks up the anger of the marginalised voters in the north who treated the referendum as a referendum on globalisation, leaving the Tories masters of all they survey for the foreseeable future.
That's how I think it will go down.
posted by Mocata at 8:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
That's how I think it will go down.
posted by Mocata at 8:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
So Juncker just said that the people voted and the EU must respect democracy. Farage started clapping and Juncker asked why he was clapping, saying "that's the last time you applaud here" and then ripping into Farage asking "why are you here."
The exchange was depressing because it underlines how unsophisticated, unsubtle and unimaginative Juncker is—his response to [edit] Farage was the antithesis of cool, urbane and witty.
posted by My Dad at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The exchange was depressing because it underlines how unsophisticated, unsubtle and unimaginative Juncker is—his response to [edit] Farage was the antithesis of cool, urbane and witty.
posted by My Dad at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
You mean complete indifference to the arsonists looking to burn down the UK connects with a majority of Labour voters?
Because from all appearances Corbyn abdicated any responsibility to lead or question the bullshit narrative being pushed by BOGO and Farage.
The Labour MPs have every reason to doubt his competency as the leader because to all appearances he's actually incompetent.
Having good beliefs simply is not enough to actually be a good leader. Labour needs both right now and frankly the bench looks a bit sparse.
posted by vuron at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Because from all appearances Corbyn abdicated any responsibility to lead or question the bullshit narrative being pushed by BOGO and Farage.
The Labour MPs have every reason to doubt his competency as the leader because to all appearances he's actually incompetent.
Having good beliefs simply is not enough to actually be a good leader. Labour needs both right now and frankly the bench looks a bit sparse.
posted by vuron at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
And oh, Murdoch thinks leaving the EU is a good thing.
Of course the old vulture still thinks it is. For him, the issue has only been about his power and influence.
Here's what Murdoch really thinks the difference between the UK and the EU is:
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [40 favorites]
Of course the old vulture still thinks it is. For him, the issue has only been about his power and influence.
Here's what Murdoch really thinks the difference between the UK and the EU is:
I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.”Spoken like a true oligarch.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [40 favorites]
David Allen Green offers a glimmer of hope. As he points out, oversight of Brexit has been handed to the Cabinet Office, and the Cabinet Office is where policies go to die.
From the Twitter buzz it sounds as if Tom Watson is about to be the next Labour leader. Mefi's own!
Of course, if there is a Brexit climbdown at this point, there's a serious risk that UKIP will end up as the next majority government in Westminster under the distorting effects of first-past-the-post. They just have to win the highest number of votes in any seat, remember, not a majority of votes overall, and if they steal enough support from the Tories and Labour over a "Brexit betrayal" that's entirely possible in too many places.
If the current Members of our venerable Parliament would very much like Britain not to slide into fascist dictatorship, they might think about passing a bill immediately to adopt proportional representation for all future General Elections and pledging never to go into coalition with UKIP. Reforming the House of Lords might also be a helpful.
posted by rory at 8:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
From the Twitter buzz it sounds as if Tom Watson is about to be the next Labour leader. Mefi's own!
Of course, if there is a Brexit climbdown at this point, there's a serious risk that UKIP will end up as the next majority government in Westminster under the distorting effects of first-past-the-post. They just have to win the highest number of votes in any seat, remember, not a majority of votes overall, and if they steal enough support from the Tories and Labour over a "Brexit betrayal" that's entirely possible in too many places.
If the current Members of our venerable Parliament would very much like Britain not to slide into fascist dictatorship, they might think about passing a bill immediately to adopt proportional representation for all future General Elections and pledging never to go into coalition with UKIP. Reforming the House of Lords might also be a helpful.
posted by rory at 8:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Who the hell gets to be the official opposition now? Corbyn has 40 supporters. There a 176 Labour MPs without a leader. SNP has 54 MPs. Could a 176+SNP coalition lead questions to the PM tomorrow?
posted by popcassady at 8:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by popcassady at 8:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Britain's meal ticket? Food and drink at heart of referendum debate
Special Edition: Brexit - what does it mean for the food industry?
Breaking Point - "It feels as though this referendum has unleashed the worst in us. It has poisoned the kinds of conversation we have, and expanded the space in which the subtle and often explicit racism of the right can take root. This morning I woke up feeling as though I was being asked a question that I don’t—that many of us, now—don’t want to answer."
Here’s how Brexit may cripple Britain’s financial sector — and the British economy
Looking behind the Brexit anger - "One of the most succinct explanations for the political changes of the last four decades came from American political scientist Professor Alan Wolfe: "The right won the economic war, the left won the cultural war."
This is the equality paradox I wrote about some years ago. "
Brexit Voters: NOT the Left Behind
How Brexit Threatens to Turn the UK Into “Borisland”
more, at OMNIVORE
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Special Edition: Brexit - what does it mean for the food industry?
Breaking Point - "It feels as though this referendum has unleashed the worst in us. It has poisoned the kinds of conversation we have, and expanded the space in which the subtle and often explicit racism of the right can take root. This morning I woke up feeling as though I was being asked a question that I don’t—that many of us, now—don’t want to answer."
Here’s how Brexit may cripple Britain’s financial sector — and the British economy
Looking behind the Brexit anger - "One of the most succinct explanations for the political changes of the last four decades came from American political scientist Professor Alan Wolfe: "The right won the economic war, the left won the cultural war."
This is the equality paradox I wrote about some years ago. "
Brexit Voters: NOT the Left Behind
How Brexit Threatens to Turn the UK Into “Borisland”
more, at OMNIVORE
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Belief doesn't mean a lot if you don't have the skills to win elections and turn those beliefs into reality. I posted elsewhere that when I look at Corbyn, I am reminded of Obama vs. Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean. All of them wanted to be transformational candidates. All of them faced an extremely hostile environment* in the press and elsewhere. All of them made mistakes. But Obama had the necessary skills as a politician and person to recover from things like the 'clinging to guns and religion' remark, and more importantly to bring a huge swath of people, including people who were formerly or naturally hostile, to his side. If you can't do that, all the nice principles in the world mean nothing. Dean and Sanders never expanded their appeal beyond their narrow initial demographic.
Corbyn may very well be favored by those willing to pay to vote in internal Labour elections, but if he can't convince the actual voters, i.e. the people that the Labour MPs were elected by and accountable to, then he's deadweight.
* Anyone who wants to claim Obama faced a less hostile environment: A black man. With a Muslim name. And a foreign father. Seriously, the guy is the equivalent of Harrison Bergeron: so fucking good you didn't even fully notice all the sandbags he was wearing.
posted by tavella at 8:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
Corbyn may very well be favored by those willing to pay to vote in internal Labour elections, but if he can't convince the actual voters, i.e. the people that the Labour MPs were elected by and accountable to, then he's deadweight.
* Anyone who wants to claim Obama faced a less hostile environment: A black man. With a Muslim name. And a foreign father. Seriously, the guy is the equivalent of Harrison Bergeron: so fucking good you didn't even fully notice all the sandbags he was wearing.
posted by tavella at 8:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
Yep Power and Access are the coin in which people like Murdoch deal in and Brussels makes trading in that coin difficult. Who does he put pressure to get deregulation favorable to his interests?
It seems like a lot of the elites backing leave are essentially those sorts of old school power brokers that don't know how to influence EU policy like they can UK policy.
No generations of Public school networks, no friendly phone calls to your local MP, etc. They just don't seem to know how to work the gears of state effectively or their influence is drowned out by the interests of dozens of other power brokers each with their own agenda.
posted by vuron at 8:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
It seems like a lot of the elites backing leave are essentially those sorts of old school power brokers that don't know how to influence EU policy like they can UK policy.
No generations of Public school networks, no friendly phone calls to your local MP, etc. They just don't seem to know how to work the gears of state effectively or their influence is drowned out by the interests of dozens of other power brokers each with their own agenda.
posted by vuron at 8:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Corbyn may very well be favored by those willing to pay to vote in internal Labour elections, but if he can't convince the actual voters, i.e. the people that the Labour MPs were elected by and accountable to, then he's deadweight.
Since he's been leader they've risen in the polls, just now overtaking the Tories, and have won key mayoral elections in Bristol and London.
posted by Abiezer at 9:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Since he's been leader they've risen in the polls, just now overtaking the Tories, and have won key mayoral elections in Bristol and London.
posted by Abiezer at 9:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Christ on a tricycle, what the fuck is happening?
posted by Happy Dave at 9:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Happy Dave at 9:04 AM on June 28, 2016 [22 favorites]
Unless they can change the voting rules, we will vote him back with a bigger majority. His views - actual beliefs - simply connect with so many people. He knows he has the numbers to prove it.
If they can't exclude him from the ballot he might well win it. But I'd be surprised if he won it by a bigger margin. We know from the last contest that he can attract Greens, SWP types and the like, young people who grew up with Blair as the chief baddie on the political stage, and disaffected older activists and voters outside the metropolis. But the referendum result suggests that he can't rely on the last group, and the third group will probably shrink thanks to young people being overwhelmingly for Remain. (Although social media embubblement might help him there.)
What if there was a soft left unity candidate on offer who kept the anti-austerity side of Corbynism but wasn't so shambolic and was able to work with the PLP? Would you go for that?
posted by Mocata at 9:04 AM on June 28, 2016
If they can't exclude him from the ballot he might well win it. But I'd be surprised if he won it by a bigger margin. We know from the last contest that he can attract Greens, SWP types and the like, young people who grew up with Blair as the chief baddie on the political stage, and disaffected older activists and voters outside the metropolis. But the referendum result suggests that he can't rely on the last group, and the third group will probably shrink thanks to young people being overwhelmingly for Remain. (Although social media embubblement might help him there.)
What if there was a soft left unity candidate on offer who kept the anti-austerity side of Corbynism but wasn't so shambolic and was able to work with the PLP? Would you go for that?
posted by Mocata at 9:04 AM on June 28, 2016
Ohh boy Corbyn gets to rule over a Rump Caucus.
I guess the 176 can join Sturgeon and presumably the Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrats in forming a new party.
posted by vuron at 9:08 AM on June 28, 2016
I guess the 176 can join Sturgeon and presumably the Plaid Cymru and Liberal Democrats in forming a new party.
posted by vuron at 9:08 AM on June 28, 2016
Further to my revelation that Jill Stein supported Brexit in this archived post, and then secretly replaced the post with one claiming that she never supported Brexit, she (or a staffer) was on Facebook telling people to clear their cache !!!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:09 AM on June 28, 2016 [45 favorites]
But the referendum result suggests that he can't rely on the last group, and the third group will probably shrink thanks to young people being overwhelmingly for Remain. (Although social media embubblement might help him there.)
If I read you right and by "last group" you mean voters outside the metropolis who went 'Leave' in the referendum I imagine his more nuanced approach where he didn't pretend the EU was all sweetness and light will do him no harm, more so with the pro-Remain youth activists you'd think (as you say).
posted by Abiezer at 9:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I read you right and by "last group" you mean voters outside the metropolis who went 'Leave' in the referendum I imagine his more nuanced approach where he didn't pretend the EU was all sweetness and light will do him no harm, more so with the pro-Remain youth activists you'd think (as you say).
posted by Abiezer at 9:10 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
If they split now is he de facto not the leader of the opposition, just the leader of the Labour party?
posted by vbfg at 9:12 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by vbfg at 9:12 AM on June 28, 2016
Let's not forget that for the past 25 years conservative tabloids in the UK have relentlessly attacked the EU by feeding the public a daily serving of lies, distorted truths and exaggerations about EU policies (known as Euromyths). Things like "EU wants to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze"
That comment has been bothering me, and I finally have time to reply. It's a strange example to choose, and the "a few bad EU policies" angle has been relatively under-represented and ignored here as a way of explaining what the hell voters were thinking. According to what appears to be the relevant item on the Euromyths site, they did actually raise the minimum level of excise tax on booze. Also, there was some discussion about how bad binge drinking and other health problems related to alcohol can be. These may be, as is claimed, separate if not entirely unrelated items in the European process, but the press might be forgiven for confusing the two even if it is the Sun. Why would they have any minimum tax on alcohol, if not out of concern for its health effects? No other rationale is given.
Browsing through some other mythology, it comes across to me as full of arguments such as "yes we have regulations regarding the curvature of that type of fruit, what's wrong with that?"; "yes we very well might ban that thing you like, but it won't happen for a few years yet so what's your problem with that?"; "we're only discussing that it hasn't actually happened yet", and so on. Of course there are a good number of outright lies for them to refute as well, but there do seem to be a significant number of items dismissed as "myths" that contain levels of truth sufficient to make them almost credible.
Then there are the two recent examples of dumb EU rule-making that are so profoundly stupid and highly publicized that the whole world seems to know about them. They are not in any way "myths". There's the "cookie law" thing, which may be reasonably close to trivial, but is utterly ridiculous and has been seen by everyone who uses the Internet. It's especially annoying to the few people who actually care about such things and clear out their cookies regularly. The EU has made itself the punchline of an everyday joke, there; that can't have helped. And then the vaping TPD, wherein the EU are going to pass some sort of law making it illegal to sell the best and most popular kinds of vape equipment. I don't know how many people vape in the UK, but my guess is more than the 2% it might have taken to change the referendum result. And you can bet they all know about this and feel very strongly about it.
Naturally these failures of the EU are also failures of your national government which participated in the process and failed to stand up and fight against bad legislation to the extent that it could have done in an ideal world. Your home government has also passed all manner of nonsensical idiocy into law all on its own, though I'll not cite any examples as everyone is sure to disagree on exactly what falls into this category. It's a fairly large category though, for most people. It's sort of inevitable, for modern governments.
Although it's a fairly stupid idea, if there was a referendum on whether to immediately abolish the British parliament, with no thought given as to what would replace it, that might also get a surprisingly large level of support.
posted by sfenders at 9:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
That comment has been bothering me, and I finally have time to reply. It's a strange example to choose, and the "a few bad EU policies" angle has been relatively under-represented and ignored here as a way of explaining what the hell voters were thinking. According to what appears to be the relevant item on the Euromyths site, they did actually raise the minimum level of excise tax on booze. Also, there was some discussion about how bad binge drinking and other health problems related to alcohol can be. These may be, as is claimed, separate if not entirely unrelated items in the European process, but the press might be forgiven for confusing the two even if it is the Sun. Why would they have any minimum tax on alcohol, if not out of concern for its health effects? No other rationale is given.
Browsing through some other mythology, it comes across to me as full of arguments such as "yes we have regulations regarding the curvature of that type of fruit, what's wrong with that?"; "yes we very well might ban that thing you like, but it won't happen for a few years yet so what's your problem with that?"; "we're only discussing that it hasn't actually happened yet", and so on. Of course there are a good number of outright lies for them to refute as well, but there do seem to be a significant number of items dismissed as "myths" that contain levels of truth sufficient to make them almost credible.
Then there are the two recent examples of dumb EU rule-making that are so profoundly stupid and highly publicized that the whole world seems to know about them. They are not in any way "myths". There's the "cookie law" thing, which may be reasonably close to trivial, but is utterly ridiculous and has been seen by everyone who uses the Internet. It's especially annoying to the few people who actually care about such things and clear out their cookies regularly. The EU has made itself the punchline of an everyday joke, there; that can't have helped. And then the vaping TPD, wherein the EU are going to pass some sort of law making it illegal to sell the best and most popular kinds of vape equipment. I don't know how many people vape in the UK, but my guess is more than the 2% it might have taken to change the referendum result. And you can bet they all know about this and feel very strongly about it.
Naturally these failures of the EU are also failures of your national government which participated in the process and failed to stand up and fight against bad legislation to the extent that it could have done in an ideal world. Your home government has also passed all manner of nonsensical idiocy into law all on its own, though I'll not cite any examples as everyone is sure to disagree on exactly what falls into this category. It's a fairly large category though, for most people. It's sort of inevitable, for modern governments.
Although it's a fairly stupid idea, if there was a referendum on whether to immediately abolish the British parliament, with no thought given as to what would replace it, that might also get a surprisingly large level of support.
posted by sfenders at 9:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
If they split now is he de facto not the leader of the opposition, just the leader of the Labour party?
Oh, that would be... exciting.
posted by Grangousier at 9:21 AM on June 28, 2016
Oh, that would be... exciting.
posted by Grangousier at 9:21 AM on June 28, 2016
Christ on a tricycle, what the fuck is happening?
Does this help?
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Does this help?
There is a now mismatch between what Corbyn and his supporters believe; what the majority of Labour MPs believe; and what the wider community of traditional Labour voters believe.More analysis here.
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
As a one of Europe's many long-time British residents, here's something I've been suspecting but not wanting to admit: it may be disastrous for the UK but Brexit is great news for the rest of the EU.
We need to clean the house, guys. No wonder the delegates are playing hardball.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
We need to clean the house, guys. No wonder the delegates are playing hardball.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I read you right and by "last group" you mean voters outside the metropolis who went 'Leave' in the referendum I imagine his more nuanced approach where he didn't pretend the EU was all sweetness and light will do him no harm, more so with the pro-Remain youth activists you'd think (as you say).
Yeah in some ways he was wise to maintain some ambiguity - like Theresa May. But then she wasn't the leader of her party. I dunno, I would guess that lots of those older immiserated voters went for Brexit for the same reason they went for Corbyn: to kick the bastards in Westminster in the teeth. That might play out differently for him in a general election in which he'd have to take an anti-Brexit stance or lose the cities and university towns. Also his hinting during the campaign that the only thing he likes about the EU is free movement of labour probably didn't play well with them.
posted by Mocata at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016
Yeah in some ways he was wise to maintain some ambiguity - like Theresa May. But then she wasn't the leader of her party. I dunno, I would guess that lots of those older immiserated voters went for Brexit for the same reason they went for Corbyn: to kick the bastards in Westminster in the teeth. That might play out differently for him in a general election in which he'd have to take an anti-Brexit stance or lose the cities and university towns. Also his hinting during the campaign that the only thing he likes about the EU is free movement of labour probably didn't play well with them.
posted by Mocata at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016
Oh, that would be... exciting.
I think you may mean interesting.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think you may mean interesting.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I live in central London. I think it could get exciting.
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on June 28, 2016
But, yes.
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 9:25 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Neo-nazi stickers have gone up all around the Clyde and Glasgow Green in the last few days. Edinburgh too. One reply to the first tweet warned to be careful when taking these down as they sometimes put razor blades under them. I was already thinking about whether to start walking around my neighbourhood with a spray-can to paint out any racist graffiti I spot; might add a window-scraper as well.
posted by rory at 9:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by rory at 9:27 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
why did anyone link to Guardian for Brexit Live I really don't even want to do anything else today now.
That left side ticker is SHOCKERS all the way down. Save for later? How can I?
posted by zutalors! at 9:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
That left side ticker is SHOCKERS all the way down. Save for later? How can I?
posted by zutalors! at 9:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
What if there was a soft left unity candidate on offer who kept the anti-austerity side of Corbynism but wasn't so shambolic and was able to work with the PLP? Would you go for that?
No. Paul Mason (who was Remain) said at the Corbyn rally last night:
"We need 100 potential new MPs from all these young people, all these women, all these members of ethnic minority groups, disabled people, gay people. Get some people in there who suffer the hardships of working class life."
Deselections needed.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:32 AM on June 28, 2016
No. Paul Mason (who was Remain) said at the Corbyn rally last night:
"We need 100 potential new MPs from all these young people, all these women, all these members of ethnic minority groups, disabled people, gay people. Get some people in there who suffer the hardships of working class life."
Deselections needed.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:32 AM on June 28, 2016
So get rid of democratically elected representatives and replace them with people who will do what you tell them?
Now, that's a coup.
posted by Grangousier at 9:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Now, that's a coup.
posted by Grangousier at 9:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
i reiterate the comment made by someone a few days ago
this is a shit episode of black mirror
posted by lalochezia at 9:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
this is a shit episode of black mirror
posted by lalochezia at 9:34 AM on June 28, 2016 [23 favorites]
Yeah, first the pig, then the Tetris movie, now this. Brooker, you fuck.
posted by Grangousier at 9:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:36 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
(although this isn't particularly a Brooker prediction, is it?)
posted by Grangousier at 9:37 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 9:37 AM on June 28, 2016
this is a shit episode of black mirror
I'm just looking forward to gouging out my ocular implant so I don't keep getting all these news updates, and then going to beat up the Farage clone I grew in the bath.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm just looking forward to gouging out my ocular implant so I don't keep getting all these news updates, and then going to beat up the Farage clone I grew in the bath.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:38 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Grangousier: Entryist Trotskyism in operation. The demonstrations outside the homes of anti-Corbyn MPs and their offices are part and parcel of the technique: All deniable of course & done at arms length from the official leadership.
The Labour party is going to split asunder at this rate. Jesus wept.
posted by pharm at 9:38 AM on June 28, 2016
The Labour party is going to split asunder at this rate. Jesus wept.
posted by pharm at 9:38 AM on June 28, 2016
Going into this referendum, everyone assumed it would be political suicide not to do everything to follow the will of the electorate. My hope, and in fact my expectation, is that after everyone has been forced to contemplate the consequences of Brexit, things have changed; a new Prime Minister will express their hope that the Scottish Parliament will give consent, they won't give consent, and the Prime Minister will claim their hands are tied and we can all forget about Brexit. After all, we don't want to undermine Scottish democracy!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
So get rid of democratically elected representatives and replace them with people who will do what you tell them?
Deselection is done by the constituency party members and in this case would be a response to the actual coup (and months of plotting) by the MP in question.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:40 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Deselection is done by the constituency party members and in this case would be a response to the actual coup (and months of plotting) by the MP in question.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:40 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Do people seriously believe that there are enough Trotskyists in the UK to have a serious effect on the Labour Party?
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
And if they don't want to do it, will parties of enthusiastic Corbyn supporters go along to encourage them?
posted by Grangousier at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016
We've had Britain First stickers around here for years. Is this a new thing there?
Well, I've lived in Edinburgh 15 years, and walked and cycled around it a lot, and I've never noticed anything like those National Action Scotland posters. Never seen any Britain First stickers, either.
posted by rory at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, I've lived in Edinburgh 15 years, and walked and cycled around it a lot, and I've never noticed anything like those National Action Scotland posters. Never seen any Britain First stickers, either.
posted by rory at 9:42 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just coming back to the thread now, after a few hours down on the more-or-less normal-seeming Oxford Street, and feel like I have to say something about that very upsetting video from the Manchester tram; apologies if conversation has well and truly moved on.
What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.
The reactionary science-fiction writer Jerry Pournelle was perennially fond of observing that "nowhere on Earth is ever more than three meals away from riots." He meant, I believe, to express the deep tenet of the conservative worldview that holds that we're all basically animals who will rape, split and savage one another given the slightest chance, animals that need the guidance of a firm hand to maintain order among us.
There are some who will interpret videos like this one as evidence for Pournelle's point of view. We haven't even missed any meals, here in the UK, but in the wake of the referendum result the lid has clearly come off of some very, very ugly feelings.
There are some who will see this and think, yes, maybe the time is right for the firm hand. There are no doubt even some who believe this was the point all along.
As it happens, I don't believe that, any of it. I think just the opposite: that when the shit hits the fan, we come together and we protect one another. I think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to support this notion, that in all cultures and in all times and places we more often have acted in solidarity, have defended and cared for the vulnerable, and have faced down oppression. I don't just think that, I know that, and I know it happens every day. I just wish I saw more of that happening here.
Please, please, my Britons, forgive me for soapboxing, but if you see this kind of thing happening around you, or even beginning to take shape, take whatever steps you can (that are consistent with your safety) to intervene, and to safeguard and protect the vulnerable. I know this is who you are. I know this is the strength that has gotten you safely through times far worse than these. We need that strength now. Thank you.
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
What breaks my heart in the video is just everyone else furiously pretending that this isn't happening and this is none of their business, despite a few folks towards the end.
The reactionary science-fiction writer Jerry Pournelle was perennially fond of observing that "nowhere on Earth is ever more than three meals away from riots." He meant, I believe, to express the deep tenet of the conservative worldview that holds that we're all basically animals who will rape, split and savage one another given the slightest chance, animals that need the guidance of a firm hand to maintain order among us.
There are some who will interpret videos like this one as evidence for Pournelle's point of view. We haven't even missed any meals, here in the UK, but in the wake of the referendum result the lid has clearly come off of some very, very ugly feelings.
There are some who will see this and think, yes, maybe the time is right for the firm hand. There are no doubt even some who believe this was the point all along.
As it happens, I don't believe that, any of it. I think just the opposite: that when the shit hits the fan, we come together and we protect one another. I think there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to support this notion, that in all cultures and in all times and places we more often have acted in solidarity, have defended and cared for the vulnerable, and have faced down oppression. I don't just think that, I know that, and I know it happens every day. I just wish I saw more of that happening here.
Please, please, my Britons, forgive me for soapboxing, but if you see this kind of thing happening around you, or even beginning to take shape, take whatever steps you can (that are consistent with your safety) to intervene, and to safeguard and protect the vulnerable. I know this is who you are. I know this is the strength that has gotten you safely through times far worse than these. We need that strength now. Thank you.
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:44 AM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
Dammit Iceland, the brackets may not have allowed for it - but an England vs. Germany UEFA final would have been delicious. Sigh.
posted by rosswald at 9:45 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by rosswald at 9:45 AM on June 28, 2016
Pope Guilty: There are enough of them to take advantage of inchoate popular movements in order to get what they want & that’s all that matters if you do it right.
posted by pharm at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by pharm at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2016
So get rid of democratically elected representatives and replace them with people who will do what you tell them?
Now, that's a coup.
This is ridiculous, it's a normal if rarely invoked process for a democratic party under our system. How many of these MPs do you think are there more on personal merit than as candidates for the Labour Party?
posted by Abiezer at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Now, that's a coup.
This is ridiculous, it's a normal if rarely invoked process for a democratic party under our system. How many of these MPs do you think are there more on personal merit than as candidates for the Labour Party?
posted by Abiezer at 9:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
an England vs. Germany UEFA final would have been delicious
Frankly I'm glad we are spared the awful tabloid headlines that would have generated.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Frankly I'm glad we are spared the awful tabloid headlines that would have generated.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:47 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dammit Iceland, the brackets may not have allowed for it - but an England vs. Germany UEFA final would have been delicious. Sigh.
Wouldn't have been possible. Germany and England were on the same side of the draw.
posted by popcassady at 9:48 AM on June 28, 2016
Wouldn't have been possible. Germany and England were on the same side of the draw.
posted by popcassady at 9:48 AM on June 28, 2016
And if they don't want to do it, will parties of enthusiastic Corbyn supporters go along to encourage them?
I don't know, but the possibility of some people behaving in antisocial ways is not enough to suspend the democratic processes available to party members.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016
I don't know, but the possibility of some people behaving in antisocial ways is not enough to suspend the democratic processes available to party members.
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016
Quote that makes Americans feel better about themselves: Yeah I voted for Brexit. What's EU?
posted by mule98J at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by mule98J at 9:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
"No... Deselections needed."
OK but what happens then? Corbyn returns as leader without enough PLP backing to form a Shadow Cabinet. Deselections start and he recruits a bunch of new MPs from Momentum. A general election is called and - because the voters love divided parties, and because experience counts for nothing in running a national campaign, and because there isn't a national crisis on or anything, and because the political geography totally favours Corbyn - he romps home?
posted by Mocata at 9:51 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
OK but what happens then? Corbyn returns as leader without enough PLP backing to form a Shadow Cabinet. Deselections start and he recruits a bunch of new MPs from Momentum. A general election is called and - because the voters love divided parties, and because experience counts for nothing in running a national campaign, and because there isn't a national crisis on or anything, and because the political geography totally favours Corbyn - he romps home?
posted by Mocata at 9:51 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is ridiculous, it's a normal if rarely invoked process for a democratic party under our system.
A party that’s had a sudden influx of well organised, apparently single issue members? This *is* classic Entryism: stir up a popular movement which you control by dint of being more organised than anyone else and willing to put the time in, use it as leverage to enter a political group that you can control from the inside by influencing the committees that actually make the crucial decisions at a time of crisis. In this case, the MP selection committees are ideal: if you can control the shortlists, you can control the MPs put before the people, even if the people would prefer a different candidate. If you win a general election, then congratulations! You’ve won a huge amount of power for a very small cadre of people. Of course, that latter bit has rather been the sticking point for this tactic in the UK historically - Militant didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory on that front.
So excuse me if I don’t see how this is a victory for democracy - quite the converse.
posted by pharm at 9:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
A party that’s had a sudden influx of well organised, apparently single issue members? This *is* classic Entryism: stir up a popular movement which you control by dint of being more organised than anyone else and willing to put the time in, use it as leverage to enter a political group that you can control from the inside by influencing the committees that actually make the crucial decisions at a time of crisis. In this case, the MP selection committees are ideal: if you can control the shortlists, you can control the MPs put before the people, even if the people would prefer a different candidate. If you win a general election, then congratulations! You’ve won a huge amount of power for a very small cadre of people. Of course, that latter bit has rather been the sticking point for this tactic in the UK historically - Militant didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory on that front.
So excuse me if I don’t see how this is a victory for democracy - quite the converse.
posted by pharm at 9:53 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
But that's the nature and express purpose of a mass membership party (and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing). It's certainly more democratic than sinecures for life for central office appointees.
posted by Abiezer at 9:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 9:54 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Farage's speech in the European Parliament was astounding. The most interesting part is towards the end, where he argues for free trade, acknowledges Europe probably won't give it to Britain, and then blames the Europeans in advance for "cutting off their nose to spite their face."
posted by My Dad at 9:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by My Dad at 9:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Are there any current Labour MPs that are not JCo and would vie for leadership who have a pro immigration stance, are anti-Brexit and anti-privatisation/pro re-nationalisation?
Anyone who jumps on the 'tough on immigration' bandwagon will only accelerate Britain's spiral into being a tax-haven neo-liberal basket case.
posted by asok at 9:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Anyone who jumps on the 'tough on immigration' bandwagon will only accelerate Britain's spiral into being a tax-haven neo-liberal basket case.
posted by asok at 9:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
A general election is called and - because the voters love divided parties, and because experience counts for nothing in running a national campaign, and because there isn't a national crisis on or anything, and because the political geography totally favours Corbyn - he romps home?
Yeah well, this is the magical thinking part of the agenda. Still, never let a good crisis go to waste! Maybe this time they can make sure things go so badly for the working class that they will all see the light and vote for them in droves. That’s guaranteed not to push them into the arms of the fascists after all.
(and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing)
Sure, and it was a dumb idea then & this is why.
posted by pharm at 9:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah well, this is the magical thinking part of the agenda. Still, never let a good crisis go to waste! Maybe this time they can make sure things go so badly for the working class that they will all see the light and vote for them in droves. That’s guaranteed not to push them into the arms of the fascists after all.
(and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing)
Sure, and it was a dumb idea then & this is why.
posted by pharm at 9:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
we'd all be fine if could have just had a time machine, and distracted that fuck farrage's parents with a wind-up-hitler doll at the key moment of conception
posted by lalochezia at 9:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 9:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Brooker did predict something like this.
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 9:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 9:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
and it was the Blairites who brought in the three quid thing
I thought it was Ed Miliband?
posted by Mocata at 9:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I thought it was Ed Miliband?
posted by Mocata at 9:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
To people on the continent the EU is much more than a mere market.
This.
I've lived in Finland since 2009, with a year away in NL. Now I'm back and settled with a properly registered business and all the paperwork. I'm working on the path to becoming a full citizen. I want to pay my taxes, as I mentioned to eMigri when I applied this time around, and I am choosing this over my then valid US green card, Singapore work permit, NL residence card, and third world passport. I don't want to see it break down due to unethical media and greedy politicians playing with the feelings of the "peasantry" for instant gratification.
posted by infini at 10:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
This.
I've lived in Finland since 2009, with a year away in NL. Now I'm back and settled with a properly registered business and all the paperwork. I'm working on the path to becoming a full citizen. I want to pay my taxes, as I mentioned to eMigri when I applied this time around, and I am choosing this over my then valid US green card, Singapore work permit, NL residence card, and third world passport. I don't want to see it break down due to unethical media and greedy politicians playing with the feelings of the "peasantry" for instant gratification.
posted by infini at 10:00 AM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
I thought it was Ed Miliband
Apparently there are only two types of Labour member. The True and Good and the Evil Blairites, who plot the downfall of the T & G in the shadows.
posted by Grangousier at 10:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Apparently there are only two types of Labour member. The True and Good and the Evil Blairites, who plot the downfall of the T & G in the shadows.
posted by Grangousier at 10:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm quite excited to learn there are 200,000 Trotskyists in the UK who all joined the Labour Party after Corbyn became leader.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
As countries go it's the Trotskyest
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Coda, are you being willfully obtuse.
No, there aren’t 200,000 Trotskyists. But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.
posted by pharm at 10:09 AM on June 28, 2016
No, there aren’t 200,000 Trotskyists. But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.
posted by pharm at 10:09 AM on June 28, 2016
The Trots are in the Tory party being crazy accelerationists and assuming historical materialism will play out in the correct way.
posted by vbfg at 10:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 10:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think most of Momentum is made up of far left entryists, I think they're mostly well meaning people who are rightly annoyed by the gulf between Westminster politics and people's experience, but don't have a well developed sense of what's doable, partly because loads of them are pretty young and formed their political identities during the Iraq adventure and so think of the right of the Labour Party as the ultimate baddies in a way that people who grew up with Thatcher and Major in charge don't.
posted by Mocata at 10:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 10:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.
Fair enough, but that's not the same as pre-endorsing the chorus of media noise that we will soon hear about 'intimidation' from these activists. Stella Creasy's Syria bombing intimidation, breathlessly reported by The Guardian et al, turned out to be a march to her constituency office that ended with post-it notes being stuck to the door, by a priest among others.
And I am old enough to remember pickets!
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:21 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Fair enough, but that's not the same as pre-endorsing the chorus of media noise that we will soon hear about 'intimidation' from these activists. Stella Creasy's Syria bombing intimidation, breathlessly reported by The Guardian et al, turned out to be a march to her constituency office that ended with post-it notes being stuck to the door, by a priest among others.
And I am old enough to remember pickets!
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:21 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, I suspect we're in this mess because of a kind of Tory entryism, but it's not Trotskyist, it's ... whatever ... neoliberal. Their Corbyn was Thatcher. A lot of the strategies are there, but in a more sedate way.
Have Trotskyist incursions ever actually achieved anything when they've got power? There was a lot of it about in the 80s, but did they get anything done? It only ever got reported when they fucked things up, but it's true that the media would do that. Was there ever anything else?
For anyone who doesn't remember the British left in the 80s, the Socialist Worker's Party are essentially a People's Front of Judea reenactment society.
posted by Grangousier at 10:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Have Trotskyist incursions ever actually achieved anything when they've got power? There was a lot of it about in the 80s, but did they get anything done? It only ever got reported when they fucked things up, but it's true that the media would do that. Was there ever anything else?
For anyone who doesn't remember the British left in the 80s, the Socialist Worker's Party are essentially a People's Front of Judea reenactment society.
posted by Grangousier at 10:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not sure if posted already but seemingly they got that little wank nozzle in Manchester pretty early on.
https://twitter.com/gmpolice/status/747813973475606528
(Actually before I got out of bed this morning, and posting this is the last thing I do before leaving the office).
I believe the description was "English kid in a baseball cap. Probably looks a bit of a twat".
posted by vbfg at 10:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
https://twitter.com/gmpolice/status/747813973475606528
(Actually before I got out of bed this morning, and posting this is the last thing I do before leaving the office).
I believe the description was "English kid in a baseball cap. Probably looks a bit of a twat".
posted by vbfg at 10:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think debating Trotskyism is really a derail, because Corbyn is a basic left social democrat in most of what he's proposing. That's how far to the right everything has gone in the last 30 years: he puts forward a programme no more left wing than the Labour Party did a few decades ago and yet is hailed as ultra-left universally.
He would not agree that 'there is no parliamentary road to socialism' but the fact that basically nobody commenting here would agree with that phrase also indicates how much further to the centre everything has shifted.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
He would not agree that 'there is no parliamentary road to socialism' but the fact that basically nobody commenting here would agree with that phrase also indicates how much further to the centre everything has shifted.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Qui Bono from this madness?
The 3-quid membership provides trivial open access influence with the Official Oppositon to her Majesty's government, to a party that has long been opposed by Very Serious and Powerful People.
You bet there are LINOs who are tory/other agents involved in this. cf. All of british history, security state, old boys club, press barons, etc etc.
You bet there are Blairites that are using this as an excuse to swing the labor party back in their direction.
Does that mean there aren't Entryists from the far left fringes? No. Of course there are.
Does that mean that most of momentum isn't "mostly well meaning people who are rightly annoyed by the gulf between Westminster politics and people's experience". No. Of course they are.
For all of Corbyn's ideological worth, he needed to be prepared for this. The history of the left demands you are prepared for wreckers from within and without.
Good leadership tries to take into account attempts to obfuscate, corrupt and befuddle; and sets up actions and structures and mechanisms that do this and keeps your team on-side. We need good leadership. I don't know where that comes from at the moment.
We're all fucked if it can't be sorted out soon.
posted by lalochezia at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
The 3-quid membership provides trivial open access influence with the Official Oppositon to her Majesty's government, to a party that has long been opposed by Very Serious and Powerful People.
You bet there are LINOs who are tory/other agents involved in this. cf. All of british history, security state, old boys club, press barons, etc etc.
You bet there are Blairites that are using this as an excuse to swing the labor party back in their direction.
Does that mean there aren't Entryists from the far left fringes? No. Of course there are.
Does that mean that most of momentum isn't "mostly well meaning people who are rightly annoyed by the gulf between Westminster politics and people's experience". No. Of course they are.
For all of Corbyn's ideological worth, he needed to be prepared for this. The history of the left demands you are prepared for wreckers from within and without.
Good leadership tries to take into account attempts to obfuscate, corrupt and befuddle; and sets up actions and structures and mechanisms that do this and keeps your team on-side. We need good leadership. I don't know where that comes from at the moment.
We're all fucked if it can't be sorted out soon.
posted by lalochezia at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
That video from the tram (warning: cursing, bigotry) is chilling, and firm evidence of behavior that a lot of right wing nationalists had been brushing off as unsubstantiated anecdote. Please, tell the citizen who was verbally assaulted on a train and made to feel unwelcome in his own country that this is all about giving Brussels the finger. Please, tell him that he shouldn't be angry at racists, and that he should work harder to band together with them. Please, tell him that the entire campaign for Leave wasn't predicated exactly on enabling and reifying exactly that type of abuse.
posted by codacorolla at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 10:35 AM on June 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
Yeah when you've grown up in the Blair-Cameron era and you never experienced Thatcherism at it's worst you really have no idea what sort of dark timeline you are risking in the current environment. To them Blairites are the enemy because they've never known fear under the dark lord of Mordor.
It's the sort of thinking that is evident among some of the millenials in the US that maybe Trump wouldn't be that bad and he'd alert people to the dangers of neoliberalism and even if it's bad it wouldn't be an eternal winter and there would be a glowing progressive spring at the end of it. Allowing Clinton in would just result in a slow decline because she's totally a neoliberal shill or something.
That seems to be the thinking of some of the Trotskyists among Labour in the UK. There is so much fear about the Blairites stabbing people in the back that there is more or less tunnel blindness as to the nature of the Tory-UKIP threat.
I guess if you have never seen fascists in charge you are willing to risk fascism but at least for some people risking a rise of fascism is never acceptable especially in a people that behind their polite exteriors seem perfectly willing to concede that maybe the Fuhrer had some good ideas.
posted by vuron at 10:40 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
It's the sort of thinking that is evident among some of the millenials in the US that maybe Trump wouldn't be that bad and he'd alert people to the dangers of neoliberalism and even if it's bad it wouldn't be an eternal winter and there would be a glowing progressive spring at the end of it. Allowing Clinton in would just result in a slow decline because she's totally a neoliberal shill or something.
That seems to be the thinking of some of the Trotskyists among Labour in the UK. There is so much fear about the Blairites stabbing people in the back that there is more or less tunnel blindness as to the nature of the Tory-UKIP threat.
I guess if you have never seen fascists in charge you are willing to risk fascism but at least for some people risking a rise of fascism is never acceptable especially in a people that behind their polite exteriors seem perfectly willing to concede that maybe the Fuhrer had some good ideas.
posted by vuron at 10:40 AM on June 28, 2016 [26 favorites]
No, there aren’t 200,000 Trotskyists. But there are a committed band of people who see a great opportunity when it’s put right in front of them: It doesn’t really matter whether Momentum was launched by them in the first place or just ripe to be taken over, what they represent to this bunch is leverage.
Left politics in Britain really is like that Life of Brian sketch.
posted by My Dad at 10:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Left politics in Britain really is like that Life of Brian sketch.
posted by My Dad at 10:41 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
As one of the many recent Labour members, I don't regret voting for Corbyn and I genuinely wish he could continue as leader - but, in my opinion, he can't. At this point, with his (actions and) inactions leading up to the referendum, his inability to work with the PLP, and the baggage he brings from Momentum's sometimes unpleasant tactics, I just don't believe that he can lead the party to a general election win.
Personally I'm hoping Tom Watson runs. I think he can bring the younger, idealistic New Corbynites and the union old guard together, and that's the only way I see us not falling apart as a party.
posted by A Robot Ninja at 10:45 AM on June 28, 2016
Personally I'm hoping Tom Watson runs. I think he can bring the younger, idealistic New Corbynites and the union old guard together, and that's the only way I see us not falling apart as a party.
posted by A Robot Ninja at 10:45 AM on June 28, 2016
I don't have a quarrel with the broad outline of what Corbyn would like to do in power. I just can't see how anyone can think he's ever had the slightest hope of getting hold of power. He's so obviously out of his depth that you start looking for alternative explanations of why people support him so passionately. I think that's why people go on about Trots and so on. Well, that and the SWP placards at his rally yesterday.
posted by Mocata at 10:46 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Mocata at 10:46 AM on June 28, 2016
And I am old enough to remember pickets!
and power cuts... currently reading this (v good) book and understanding / remembering those times better.
posted by andrewcooke at 10:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
and power cuts... currently reading this (v good) book and understanding / remembering those times better.
posted by andrewcooke at 10:48 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's more than ample justification for thinking that Corbyn stands a better chance against the Tory-UKIP threat than the serial failures from the centre/right of the party. His style plays pretty well with a lot of voters not just party members. The no confidence crowd have no magic candidate who would do better and they'll lose a lot of the membership support essential for door-knocking and leaflet-pushing if they impose one. I see one tip, Angela Eagle, has already had a dressing down from her CLP.
posted by Abiezer at 10:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 10:49 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
This video of Corbyn with his mic on saying "not sure this is a good idea" is exactly like a scene from The Thick of It
posted by pocketfullofrye at 10:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by pocketfullofrye at 10:55 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, Angela Eagle is one of the Wirral MPs. We're in the next seat over, and have the joy of being represented by the loathsome Frank Field, who stuck the knife in early, and to the surprise of absolutely nobody. She's going to get some stick for this, but Frankie may have saved his arse from the 'Kippers by backing Leave.
posted by skybluepink at 10:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by skybluepink at 10:56 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
So what's the justification? That he won the leadership ballot and didn’t lose as many council seats as expected?
posted by Mocata at 10:56 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Mocata at 10:56 AM on June 28, 2016
Left politics in Britain really is like that Life of Brian sketch.
It's a universal truth.
posted by biogeo at 10:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's a universal truth.
posted by biogeo at 10:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
He's so obviously out of his depth that you start looking for alternative explanations of why people support him so passionately.
It's ridiculously easy. He just talks and believes what he says. He can't be bothered with media bullshit. He walks the streets to campaign on behalf of marginalised people. He acts from a moral sense of justice where everyone else accepts that nothing else but the market can matter ever again.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's ridiculously easy. He just talks and believes what he says. He can't be bothered with media bullshit. He walks the streets to campaign on behalf of marginalised people. He acts from a moral sense of justice where everyone else accepts that nothing else but the market can matter ever again.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:57 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also voted Corbyn. I think what is happening to his leadership is wrong and driven by many wrong motives.
What is abundantly clear is that the fastest route to an effective opposition is that he goes away.
I am not sure I would be unhappy with David Cameron as leader of an effective opposition right now, because effective opposition in the face of what is about to happen is the single most important political requirement thus far of my middle aged lifetime.
("Thus far". I leave space for the resource wars of the future, which these events soundly demonstrate that the whole of mankind has already lost).
posted by vbfg at 10:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
What is abundantly clear is that the fastest route to an effective opposition is that he goes away.
I am not sure I would be unhappy with David Cameron as leader of an effective opposition right now, because effective opposition in the face of what is about to happen is the single most important political requirement thus far of my middle aged lifetime.
("Thus far". I leave space for the resource wars of the future, which these events soundly demonstrate that the whole of mankind has already lost).
posted by vbfg at 10:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Putting Corbyn in as leader is exactly the same as voting for Leave: a thoughtless drive to disaster.
posted by No Robots at 10:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by No Robots at 10:59 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
So what's the justification? That he won the leadership ballot and didn’t lose as many council seats as expected?
In a way, yep, in as much as despite the whole circus since his appointment turns out he isn't ballot box poison, and after a referendum where one interpretation of the leave vote in former Labour strongholds is a big fuck-off to Westminster bubble politics he's not seen as being part of it (even though he has been of course). Plus if he won it would make a lot more positive difference than if, say, Dan Jarvis did, so he gets some leeway there.
posted by Abiezer at 11:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
In a way, yep, in as much as despite the whole circus since his appointment turns out he isn't ballot box poison, and after a referendum where one interpretation of the leave vote in former Labour strongholds is a big fuck-off to Westminster bubble politics he's not seen as being part of it (even though he has been of course). Plus if he won it would make a lot more positive difference than if, say, Dan Jarvis did, so he gets some leeway there.
posted by Abiezer at 11:01 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know that the Labour party as personality cult is going to achieve anything, though. Even Thatcher tolerated people who disagreed with her.
posted by Grangousier at 11:05 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 11:05 AM on June 28, 2016
Coda: I don’t actually think Corbyn himself *is* Trotskyist. But a bunch of the people swarming around him are & they smell an opportunity.
Happy to drop it at this point though.
posted by pharm at 11:06 AM on June 28, 2016
Happy to drop it at this point though.
posted by pharm at 11:06 AM on June 28, 2016
He put them in his shadow cabinet (though to be fair he can't fill one with people who agree with him) and wanted to tolerate them. I'm not arguing this line because I think he's personally the be-all-and-end-all, I think it's for the long term good of the party if his membership-backed style wins out over the managerialist style of the bulk of the PLP.
posted by Abiezer at 11:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 11:08 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Right, but it's an insurmountably big if, because even if he did ok in the heartlands - which I don't think he would - he's still not going to play in the marginals and Scotland seems gone for the foreseeable future. A majority of people who voted Labour at the last election want him gone. If people with access to the internal numbers thought he had even a reasonable chance you wouldn't see the entire spectrum of the PLP trying desperately to turf him out.
posted by Mocata at 11:09 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Mocata at 11:09 AM on June 28, 2016
A friend heard Max Hastings speak yesterday and he, Hastings, was asked what he thought of Boris Johnson. Apparently he said something like "he's a great journalist but would be worse than Berlusconi as PM, and if he becomes PM we'll know it's the moment when the country's gone down the pan". He said something similar in 2012 - "I would not take Boris's word about whether it is Monday or Tuesday".
posted by paduasoy at 11:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by paduasoy at 11:11 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
For some reason there's this idea is that James Schneider of Momentum did poorly in an interview with SkyNews. I thought he did well.
posted by My Dad at 11:12 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by My Dad at 11:12 AM on June 28, 2016
If people with access to the internal numbers thought he had even a reasonable chance you wouldn't see the entire spectrum of the PLP trying desperately to turf him out.
I straight out don't think that's the case, I think it's a factional political fight and they'd rather lose under a right winger than win under him. But anyway, I've banged on enough so leave this to others for a bit.
posted by Abiezer at 11:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I straight out don't think that's the case, I think it's a factional political fight and they'd rather lose under a right winger than win under him. But anyway, I've banged on enough so leave this to others for a bit.
posted by Abiezer at 11:12 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
His views - actual beliefs - simply connect with so many people. He knows he has the numbers to prove it.
Jeremy Corbyn seems an eminently nice and principled person.
However : -
Everybody knows politics is a contact sport. (Barack Obama The New Yorker, May 31, 2004)
posted by adamvasco at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jeremy Corbyn seems an eminently nice and principled person.
However : -
Everybody knows politics is a contact sport. (Barack Obama The New Yorker, May 31, 2004)
posted by adamvasco at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't see how public infighting helps at a time like this. If there had really been a grassroots public outcry against Corbyn after the referendum, then perhaps. It just looks to me as though Labor is doomed no matter what for the foreseeable future.
posted by maggiemaggie at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by maggiemaggie at 11:16 AM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
So long as Scotland is locked up by the SNP is there actually a realistic possibility of a Labour government anyway?
posted by Rumple at 11:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Rumple at 11:17 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
He just talks and believes what he says.
Flipside: he's dogmatic and inflexible.
He can't be bothered with media bullshit.
Flipside: he's crap at presentation.
He walks the streets to campaign on behalf of marginalised people.
Flipside: he goes to meetings in support of West Papuan independence when he needs to be out there making the case for his future government.
He acts from a moral sense of justice where everyone else accepts that nothing else but the market can matter ever again.
Flipside: he speaks in a tone of sanctimonious petulance when things don't go his way, and his supporters imagine that not a single other person in the party isn't a market fundamentalist.
posted by Mocata at 11:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
Flipside: he's dogmatic and inflexible.
He can't be bothered with media bullshit.
Flipside: he's crap at presentation.
He walks the streets to campaign on behalf of marginalised people.
Flipside: he goes to meetings in support of West Papuan independence when he needs to be out there making the case for his future government.
He acts from a moral sense of justice where everyone else accepts that nothing else but the market can matter ever again.
Flipside: he speaks in a tone of sanctimonious petulance when things don't go his way, and his supporters imagine that not a single other person in the party isn't a market fundamentalist.
posted by Mocata at 11:18 AM on June 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
Only with the support of the SNP, formal or otherwise, unless they get an overwhelming majority in England.
posted by pharm at 11:19 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by pharm at 11:19 AM on June 28, 2016
There are times when it's appropriate to take a principled moral stand and accept the bruises no matter what comes.
However if that's what Corbyn is doing he is sure as hell doing a shoddy job of it.
He neither took a particularly compelling role in arguing for or against Brexit, it's like he was content and watch and see either way because nobody actually expected Leave to win. Even now when the reality has sunk in and Britons are going "Holy Shit! what are we going to do?" he doesn't seem capable of actually articulating a clear plan for the future.
I'm sure he's a wonderful guy with nice ideas about how to improve the long term outcomes for the country but in the short term the UK is in crisis and he looks clueless. Granted so does everyone else but apparently being completely clueless is popular with conservative voters.
posted by vuron at 11:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
However if that's what Corbyn is doing he is sure as hell doing a shoddy job of it.
He neither took a particularly compelling role in arguing for or against Brexit, it's like he was content and watch and see either way because nobody actually expected Leave to win. Even now when the reality has sunk in and Britons are going "Holy Shit! what are we going to do?" he doesn't seem capable of actually articulating a clear plan for the future.
I'm sure he's a wonderful guy with nice ideas about how to improve the long term outcomes for the country but in the short term the UK is in crisis and he looks clueless. Granted so does everyone else but apparently being completely clueless is popular with conservative voters.
posted by vuron at 11:22 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's a good sized crowd at a Pro-EU rally in Trafalgar Square despite rain and the organizers of the event calling for its cancellation due to the surge in last-minute interest with no plans for security and other logistics.
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 11:22 AM on June 28, 2016
I don't know that the Labour party as personality cult is going to achieve anything, though. Even Thatcher tolerated people who disagreed with her.
This is people disagreeing with Corbyn not tolerating him, not the other way round, and I'm struggling to understand the contortions necessary to portray it any other way.
posted by Dysk at 11:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is people disagreeing with Corbyn not tolerating him, not the other way round, and I'm struggling to understand the contortions necessary to portray it any other way.
posted by Dysk at 11:23 AM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah Abiezer I'll bow out too, I don't want to sound more snarky than I mean to be and it was nice having a civilised argument with you.
posted by Mocata at 11:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 11:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Everybody knows politics is a contact sport.
If Corbyn used that phrase people would link it to offensive Tweeting or shouty demonstrations by his supporters.
Flipside: he goes to meetings in support of West Papuan independence when he needs to be out there making the case for his future government.
That's exactly the kind of thing the media snarked when he campaigned for groups like Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, as far back as 1984.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
If Corbyn used that phrase people would link it to offensive Tweeting or shouty demonstrations by his supporters.
Flipside: he goes to meetings in support of West Papuan independence when he needs to be out there making the case for his future government.
That's exactly the kind of thing the media snarked when he campaigned for groups like Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, as far back as 1984.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:24 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The talk of the Good Friday Agreement becoming a dead letter makes my blood run cold. I suspect it's a sobering thought to the majority in Northern Ireland who voted Remain as well.
Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.
More likely for NI to remain in the UK and thus be yanked out of the EU. Have the last 16 years of peace and cooperation taken deep enough root?
posted by whuppy at 11:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.
More likely for NI to remain in the UK and thus be yanked out of the EU. Have the last 16 years of peace and cooperation taken deep enough root?
posted by whuppy at 11:31 AM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's exactly the kind of thing the media snarked when he campaigned for groups like Lesbians and Gays Support the Miners, as far back as 1984.
Hang on, you're not Abiezer... Well sure but, apart from gay rights being a more pressing domestic issue than West Papuan independence, he wasn't leader of the party then. Even my friend who does a lot of teaching and campaigning about it, and who was at the meeting, was like, "What the hell are you doing here? Go and do your job!" (Though not out loud because she's polite.) I'm not disputing that he's great at being a campaigning backbencher, just that he's any good as party leader.
posted by Mocata at 11:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Hang on, you're not Abiezer... Well sure but, apart from gay rights being a more pressing domestic issue than West Papuan independence, he wasn't leader of the party then. Even my friend who does a lot of teaching and campaigning about it, and who was at the meeting, was like, "What the hell are you doing here? Go and do your job!" (Though not out loud because she's polite.) I'm not disputing that he's great at being a campaigning backbencher, just that he's any good as party leader.
posted by Mocata at 11:32 AM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.Huh. That's actually a kind of intriguing possibility: an independent Northern Ireland, part of the Commonwealth and thus still officially under the British crown, but part of the EU and thus having an open border with the Republic. I don't think unionists would go for it, but it's a proposal.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:35 AM on June 28, 2016
I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.
If the political factions in NI could be replaced by something other than Sinn Fein and the DUPs then maybe people could get somewhere but identity politics seems to be the name of the game.
posted by vuron at 11:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the political factions in NI could be replaced by something other than Sinn Fein and the DUPs then maybe people could get somewhere but identity politics seems to be the name of the game.
posted by vuron at 11:39 AM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tom McTague, Alex Spence and Edward-Isaac Dovere at Politico.eu: “How David Cameron Blew It: The behind-the-scenes story of a failed campaign to keep Britain in the European Union.”
posted by Going To Maine at 11:44 AM on June 28, 2016
posted by Going To Maine at 11:44 AM on June 28, 2016
This is people disagreeing with Corbyn not tolerating him, not the other way round
I was referring to the calls for deselection, which I admit I wasn't clear about. When Michael Heseltine stormed out of Downing Street, they didn't try to get him bounced as MP for Henley.
The thing about the membership... what worries me is that I do think there's a fundamental incompetence there, which has been put into the spotlight by the Referendum and the Vice documentary, and I do think there's the projection of too much hope onto one person who might not explicitly betray them in an Obama sort of way, but who will fail them at some point. That's the problem - there's too much riding on a single individual with an increasingly evident lack of skills in many of the crucial areas of governance. And there's a huge groundswell of nominal support, but it's unclear how many of them are going to get involved with the running of the party, and whether they can communicate with the wider community.
posted by Grangousier at 11:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was referring to the calls for deselection, which I admit I wasn't clear about. When Michael Heseltine stormed out of Downing Street, they didn't try to get him bounced as MP for Henley.
The thing about the membership... what worries me is that I do think there's a fundamental incompetence there, which has been put into the spotlight by the Referendum and the Vice documentary, and I do think there's the projection of too much hope onto one person who might not explicitly betray them in an Obama sort of way, but who will fail them at some point. That's the problem - there's too much riding on a single individual with an increasingly evident lack of skills in many of the crucial areas of governance. And there's a huge groundswell of nominal support, but it's unclear how many of them are going to get involved with the running of the party, and whether they can communicate with the wider community.
posted by Grangousier at 11:46 AM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.I think the primary problem is that they had an accommodation that everyone could pretty much live with, and now a bunch of assholes in England and Wales have screwed it up. I don't think that a United Ireland is seriously on the table. But I also don't think anyone wants to go back to the days of checkpoints at the border.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:50 AM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
George Monbiot in The Guardian:
"Yes, the Brexit campaign was led by a political elite, funded by an economic elite and fuelled by a media elite. Yes, popular anger was channelled towards undeserving targets – migrants. But the vote was also a howl of rage against exclusion, alienation and remote authority. That is why the slogan “take back control” resonated. If the left can’t work with this, what are we for?"
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Yes, the Brexit campaign was led by a political elite, funded by an economic elite and fuelled by a media elite. Yes, popular anger was channelled towards undeserving targets – migrants. But the vote was also a howl of rage against exclusion, alienation and remote authority. That is why the slogan “take back control” resonated. If the left can’t work with this, what are we for?"
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:58 AM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Fair point, vuron. I deliberately skirted the issue of NI joining the Republic, figuring the idea of an independent Northern Ireland was already unrealistic enough.
So let me recast the question again: Can DUP/Protestant/Unionist identity politics be somehow separated from actually belonging to the UK?
posted by whuppy at 11:58 AM on June 28, 2016
So let me recast the question again: Can DUP/Protestant/Unionist identity politics be somehow separated from actually belonging to the UK?
posted by whuppy at 11:58 AM on June 28, 2016
Only with the support of the SNP, formal or otherwise, unless they get an overwhelming majority in England.
It's hard to imagine them winning in England based on the referendum results, unless they somehow square the circle of being Pro-Europe and Anti-Immigration, since 1/3 of their membership voted to leave, probably higher when discounting Scottish and NI Labour numbers..
Would people tolerate a coalition with a separatist party? Didn't happen despite serious motivation when Blocc Quebecois were sending a huge delegation of MPs to Ottawa.
posted by Rumple at 12:03 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's hard to imagine them winning in England based on the referendum results, unless they somehow square the circle of being Pro-Europe and Anti-Immigration, since 1/3 of their membership voted to leave, probably higher when discounting Scottish and NI Labour numbers..
Would people tolerate a coalition with a separatist party? Didn't happen despite serious motivation when Blocc Quebecois were sending a huge delegation of MPs to Ottawa.
posted by Rumple at 12:03 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
This video of Corbyn with his mic on saying "not sure this is a good idea" is exactly like a scene from The Thick of It
Transcript and background here. What an utter omnishambles.
He does not remotely give the appearance of a confident leader committed to navigating the fact that his party just walked en masse and looks more like he's a little kid who's climbed up to the top of the big slide and is afraid to go down.
posted by zachlipton at 12:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Transcript and background here. What an utter omnishambles.
He does not remotely give the appearance of a confident leader committed to navigating the fact that his party just walked en masse and looks more like he's a little kid who's climbed up to the top of the big slide and is afraid to go down.
posted by zachlipton at 12:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
For people concerned about what to do if witnessing racist incidents, this online pamphlet
WHO, IF NOT YOU?
How you can intervene when witnessing racist assaults
gives some advice that I think is useful.
posted by Azara at 12:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
WHO, IF NOT YOU?
How you can intervene when witnessing racist assaults
gives some advice that I think is useful.
posted by Azara at 12:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
The astonishing thing is not that Corbyn lost the no confidence vote. That was expected. The astonishing thing is that he has chosen to defy his own MPs by refusing to resign. That is extraordinary.
Walter Bagehot had it right in 1867 when he warned of the dangers of appealing to the wishes of the wider party membership over and above the wishes of the parliamentary party:
posted by verstegan at 12:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Walter Bagehot had it right in 1867 when he warned of the dangers of appealing to the wishes of the wider party membership over and above the wishes of the parliamentary party:
The feeling of a constituency is the feeling of a dominant party, and that feeling is elicited, stimulated, sometimes even manufactured by the local political agent. Such an opinion could not be moderate; could not be subject to effectual discussion; could not be in close contact with pressing facts; could not be framed under a chastening sense of near responsibility; could not be formed as those form their opinions who have to act upon them. Constituency government is the precise opposite of parliamentary government. It is the government of immoderate persons far from the scene of action, instead of the government of moderate persons close to the scene of action; it is the judgment of persons judging in the last resort and without a penalty, in lieu of persons judging in fear of a dissolution, and ever conscious that they are subject to an appeal.The Labour Party is now in uncharted waters. The only person to foresee this situation was Joe Haines, in an article from last January, The Micawber Syndrome, in which he urged Labour MPs to depose Corbyn while they had the chance:
Corbyn’s total vote was just over 251,000; in other words, approximately one in every 183 people on the electoral register (46 million) voted for him, or 0.5 per cent. In relation to the next general election, that is the only statistic that matters and it should be compared to the nearly 9.35 million who voted Labour last May. The strength of the party lies in the nine million-odd, not the 251,000, and that figure will be dissipated at our peril.I hope and pray that Corbyn will heed the calls to resign. 'Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!' But I suspect we may be on the verge of a major party realignment. Who knows, we might even end up with two Labour Parties, with Corbyn as a new Keir Hardie at the head of a reincarnated Independent Labour Party.
It is the Parliamentary Labour Party that represents the Labour vote in Britain, not the 423,000 people, including the ragbag of “registered supporters”, who voted in the leadership contest. And it is up to the PLP to do something about it. Theirs is the true legitimacy. The parliamentary party is the most powerful force in the labour movement.
posted by verstegan at 12:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
So let me recast the question again: Can DUP/Protestant/Unionist identity politics be somehow separated from actually belonging to the UK?
DUP and other Unionists, no: it's literally the point of their existence. For Protestants (not every one is the other) mostly no.
Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.
There are many of us now who feel more Northern Irish than British or Irish. I've had many conversations with people from polar opposite backgrounds in every way who say they would be ok with an independent NI. But there is little likelihood of that actually happening. If it was to be mooted then the EU membership might be as good a reason as any to suggest it. But it won't be. The DUP are the leading party and they voted Leave. They are right wing conservatives. You will prize the Union out of their cold dead hands.
On the other side, if Republicans call for a border poll on a United Ireland, which is allowed under the Good Friday Agreement, there has to be a clear change in opinion which indicates one is necessary and Villiers and Foster have already ruled it out. And some of us would be torn on how to vote. It's not necessarily a X number of Y religion will vote Z scenario anymore like it was in my parents' day. So there's no guarantee even all the Catholics/Nationalists would vote for Unification (Republicans would, obviously), but maybe some Protestants would vote for it if it was really a choice between EU membership and being British (but not many). So it really that's not on the cards. Anyway the Republic can't afford to absorb another 6 counties.
I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.
I know you're just writing pithy words on a screen but quite a lot of people died for our domestic bullshit, including family members, and there are a lot of shitty things which happen here still whether it's reported it not, and feel free to ask me how I know. There are fragile ties that bind and it's a real concern that all of this is going to begin an unraveling. So just bear in mind it's not abstract political philosophising for some of us right here in the room.
posted by billiebee at 12:22 PM on June 28, 2016 [54 favorites]
DUP and other Unionists, no: it's literally the point of their existence. For Protestants (not every one is the other) mostly no.
Could NI possibly split off from the UK? Is there any chance that pro-EU sentiment could ever outweigh the Unionists? I don't understand the facts on the ground well enough to tell if they'd ever accept becoming a successor state just to stay in the EU.
There are many of us now who feel more Northern Irish than British or Irish. I've had many conversations with people from polar opposite backgrounds in every way who say they would be ok with an independent NI. But there is little likelihood of that actually happening. If it was to be mooted then the EU membership might be as good a reason as any to suggest it. But it won't be. The DUP are the leading party and they voted Leave. They are right wing conservatives. You will prize the Union out of their cold dead hands.
On the other side, if Republicans call for a border poll on a United Ireland, which is allowed under the Good Friday Agreement, there has to be a clear change in opinion which indicates one is necessary and Villiers and Foster have already ruled it out. And some of us would be torn on how to vote. It's not necessarily a X number of Y religion will vote Z scenario anymore like it was in my parents' day. So there's no guarantee even all the Catholics/Nationalists would vote for Unification (Republicans would, obviously), but maybe some Protestants would vote for it if it was really a choice between EU membership and being British (but not many). So it really that's not on the cards. Anyway the Republic can't afford to absorb another 6 counties.
I think right now the primary problem for Northern Ireland is that the Republic doesn't really seem to want them and their domestic bullshit thank you very much.
I know you're just writing pithy words on a screen but quite a lot of people died for our domestic bullshit, including family members, and there are a lot of shitty things which happen here still whether it's reported it not, and feel free to ask me how I know. There are fragile ties that bind and it's a real concern that all of this is going to begin an unraveling. So just bear in mind it's not abstract political philosophising for some of us right here in the room.
posted by billiebee at 12:22 PM on June 28, 2016 [54 favorites]
Who knows, we might even end up with two Labour Parties, with Corbyn as a new Keir Hardie at the head of a reincarnated Independent Labour Party.
Is the question "What would cause a permanent Tory supermajority in England?", Alex?
posted by Talez at 12:24 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is the question "What would cause a permanent Tory supermajority in England?", Alex?
posted by Talez at 12:24 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Don’t. It’s bad enough as it is without people confirming my own forecasts of doom and gloom :(
posted by pharm at 12:28 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by pharm at 12:28 PM on June 28, 2016
'Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!'
I was thinking about Leo Amery the other day when someone on my social media wrote, re Sturgeon/Brexit: 'Come on Nicola, speak for England!'
posted by Mocata at 12:32 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was thinking about Leo Amery the other day when someone on my social media wrote, re Sturgeon/Brexit: 'Come on Nicola, speak for England!'
posted by Mocata at 12:32 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I understand your point, it's just that the continued failure to support a process of Truth and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland seems destined to keep partisanship between Unionists and Republicans at a high level.
Yes there isn't active fighting like there was during the Troubles but it seems like way too many of the players in Northern Ireland (and let's be honest Britain) are determined to keep much of the past hidden in a way that prevents people from moving on and building a united Northern Ireland whether it's in the Union or reunited with the Republic.
I just don't see there really being a way that NI can effectively put pressure on Whitehall to remain in the EU when there are such deep divisions within Northern Ireland and the dominant factions seem to be the most extreme.
Even if there was a consensus to depart from the UK which we all know there isn't it's not clear that NI could be a particularly viable economic state.
posted by vuron at 12:33 PM on June 28, 2016
Yes there isn't active fighting like there was during the Troubles but it seems like way too many of the players in Northern Ireland (and let's be honest Britain) are determined to keep much of the past hidden in a way that prevents people from moving on and building a united Northern Ireland whether it's in the Union or reunited with the Republic.
I just don't see there really being a way that NI can effectively put pressure on Whitehall to remain in the EU when there are such deep divisions within Northern Ireland and the dominant factions seem to be the most extreme.
Even if there was a consensus to depart from the UK which we all know there isn't it's not clear that NI could be a particularly viable economic state.
posted by vuron at 12:33 PM on June 28, 2016
Being pro-Europe won't benefit any political party now. That horse is out of the barn. The UK (whatever is left of it) will be out of the EU for the foreseeable future.
What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for, not the neoliberal one the Brexit leaders have in mind. The one that actually funds the NHS with the millions no longer going to the EU. The one that puts people before corporations. One that builds on and maintains whatever progressive policies the EU gave them but lets them do it themselves in Westminster instead of having them imposed by Brussels.
What about the racism and intolerance, you say? I believe that ugliness was and still is greatly amplified by Farage et al for political leverage. The people are angry, justifiably so, and the Brexit leaders gave them a convenient, but ultimately wrong, target for that anger: foreigners. If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry - especially if things are made better for them economically and they no longer feel so angry and ignored.
posted by rocket88 at 12:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for, not the neoliberal one the Brexit leaders have in mind. The one that actually funds the NHS with the millions no longer going to the EU. The one that puts people before corporations. One that builds on and maintains whatever progressive policies the EU gave them but lets them do it themselves in Westminster instead of having them imposed by Brussels.
What about the racism and intolerance, you say? I believe that ugliness was and still is greatly amplified by Farage et al for political leverage. The people are angry, justifiably so, and the Brexit leaders gave them a convenient, but ultimately wrong, target for that anger: foreigners. If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry - especially if things are made better for them economically and they no longer feel so angry and ignored.
posted by rocket88 at 12:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Thank you for this thread, its an education.
posted by infini at 12:40 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by infini at 12:40 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
The simple way you can show solidarity with immigrants. Effective, meaningful, and particularly pleasing for those of us with punk-rock roots.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Being pro-Europe won't benefit any political party now.
Except for the SNP, the LibDems, and possibly whatever party falls out from the other side of this current Labour dispute. 16.someodd million voters voting Remain makes for a rather stout political constituency if a party can organize them. The horse is out of the barn less because of Europe and more because the "official" Remain camp did a terrible job of saying "hey, this pack of lies you've been sold about the EU being a boogeyman that's the source of all of your problems isn't really all that solid of a foundation, here's what is actually going on." When John Oliver and Patrick Stewart can come up with a better message than actual politicians who run the place, well...
posted by fireoyster at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Except for the SNP, the LibDems, and possibly whatever party falls out from the other side of this current Labour dispute. 16.someodd million voters voting Remain makes for a rather stout political constituency if a party can organize them. The horse is out of the barn less because of Europe and more because the "official" Remain camp did a terrible job of saying "hey, this pack of lies you've been sold about the EU being a boogeyman that's the source of all of your problems isn't really all that solid of a foundation, here's what is actually going on." When John Oliver and Patrick Stewart can come up with a better message than actual politicians who run the place, well...
posted by fireoyster at 12:41 PM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's just struck me that if whoever is left can get them to settle for the Norway model, we'll have most of the things we had except the Tories won't be able to push the EU further to the right, and we won't have representatives in the EU parliament that no one bothered to vote for anyway, except Farage who, when he turned up at all, was a national humiliation. Straws and grasping, but it might be the first glimmers of acceptance.
posted by Grangousier at 12:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 12:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Most of that money that was promised to go to the NHS would still go to supporting the Single Market though. Yes they might not be formal payments to the EU for membership in the EU. Furthermore EEA members do not get funding from the EU from development funds.
At least one comment has indicated that being cut off from EU funding would absolutely devastate agriculture in the UK as subsidy payments form the majority of most farms income. I understand that UK has largely abandoned an agrarian lifestyle but it does seem like rural farmers in the UK do have fairly significant political power.
posted by vuron at 12:46 PM on June 28, 2016
At least one comment has indicated that being cut off from EU funding would absolutely devastate agriculture in the UK as subsidy payments form the majority of most farms income. I understand that UK has largely abandoned an agrarian lifestyle but it does seem like rural farmers in the UK do have fairly significant political power.
posted by vuron at 12:46 PM on June 28, 2016
> If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry - especially if things are made better for them economically and they no longer feel so angry and ignored.
This is going to sound sarcastic, but I really mean it with utmost sincerity: Good luck with that.
Given the examples of "the left" in action that I've seen so far, here in the US and in Labour's implosion so far (I mean, all they had to do was to sit back and point to the Leave promises being declared "no longer operative"), I'm really not hopeful. And yet, if that doesn't happen, we're staring at the rise of outright fascism.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:47 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is going to sound sarcastic, but I really mean it with utmost sincerity: Good luck with that.
Given the examples of "the left" in action that I've seen so far, here in the US and in Labour's implosion so far (I mean, all they had to do was to sit back and point to the Leave promises being declared "no longer operative"), I'm really not hopeful. And yet, if that doesn't happen, we're staring at the rise of outright fascism.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:47 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, well, back to depression again. Thanks, vuron.
posted by Grangousier at 12:48 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 12:48 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just mean that any talk of ignoring or reversing the referendum result now is both a waste of breath and political suicide. Accept that it's happening and make it happen in the best way possible instead of continuing to fight it and insulting anyone who voted for it.
posted by rocket88 at 12:49 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rocket88 at 12:49 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I understand your point
Not sure that you do.
Yes there isn't active fighting like there was during the Troubles
There's some.
it's just that the continued failure to support a process of Truth and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland seems destined to keep partisanship between Unionists and Republicans at a high level
This is a huge and thorny topic, and a derail to this thread. Welcome to Memail me.
it's not clear that NI could be a particularly viable economic state.
You don't say.
posted by billiebee at 12:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
Not sure that you do.
Yes there isn't active fighting like there was during the Troubles
There's some.
it's just that the continued failure to support a process of Truth and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland seems destined to keep partisanship between Unionists and Republicans at a high level
This is a huge and thorny topic, and a derail to this thread. Welcome to Memail me.
it's not clear that NI could be a particularly viable economic state.
You don't say.
posted by billiebee at 12:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for, not the neoliberal one the Brexit leaders have in mind... The one that puts people before corporations...
That's Jexit and serious discussion of it may be coming, so long as the stock market/pound continue to come back to normal. But Corbyn still hasn't come back to his original anti-EU Bennite principles, having gone through whatever contortions to support Remain.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:57 PM on June 28, 2016
That's Jexit and serious discussion of it may be coming, so long as the stock market/pound continue to come back to normal. But Corbyn still hasn't come back to his original anti-EU Bennite principles, having gone through whatever contortions to support Remain.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:57 PM on June 28, 2016
If Corbyn had had the gonads to come out for Leave in the first place & let his party campaign as they pleased then I’d have an awful lot more respect for him. As it is, he appears to have decided that his best course was to deliberately sabotage the Remain campaign from the inside which is, well, I just don’t have the words frankly. But lets start with completely dishonest, mendacious & conduct unbecoming of the leader of a national party and work up from there shall we?
posted by pharm at 1:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by pharm at 1:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Given the examples of "the left" in action that I've seen so far, here in the US and in Labour's implosion so far (I mean, all they had to do was to sit back and point to the Leave promises being declared "no longer operative"), I'm really not hopeful. And yet, if that doesn't happen, we're staring at the rise of outright fascism.
Not to make this about the US, but the angry Trump supporters and the angry Sanders supporters are angry for the same reasons. They're just listening to two very different politicians telling them who's to blame. I suspect the situation in England and Wales is similar.
Even if you can't make their anger go away, you can at least steer them in the right direction.
posted by rocket88 at 1:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not to make this about the US, but the angry Trump supporters and the angry Sanders supporters are angry for the same reasons. They're just listening to two very different politicians telling them who's to blame. I suspect the situation in England and Wales is similar.
Even if you can't make their anger go away, you can at least steer them in the right direction.
posted by rocket88 at 1:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
If Corbyn had had the gonads to come out for Leave in the first place & let his party campaign as they pleased
There's not much, really, to support the idea that he sabotaged the Remain campaigning. In fact his 'the EU is not all sweetness and light but stick with it for now' was an example of the non-hysterical politics that many of us educated types say we prefer. But I agree most definitely it's another facet of the tortuous mess and I'm by no means uncritical of the choices he's made recently (just not prepared to tolerate the coup plotters, who have been exposed by the press as having plotted it all two weeks ago regardless of the ref result).
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
There's not much, really, to support the idea that he sabotaged the Remain campaigning. In fact his 'the EU is not all sweetness and light but stick with it for now' was an example of the non-hysterical politics that many of us educated types say we prefer. But I agree most definitely it's another facet of the tortuous mess and I'm by no means uncritical of the choices he's made recently (just not prepared to tolerate the coup plotters, who have been exposed by the press as having plotted it all two weeks ago regardless of the ref result).
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
My daughter is a dual citizen and is quite upset about Britain "leaving the Wii U"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:17 PM on June 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:17 PM on June 28, 2016 [18 favorites]
Overlooking the effect of Brexit on Northern Ireland is dangerous for the whole UK
posted by infini at 1:18 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by infini at 1:18 PM on June 28, 2016
What, apart from refusing to show up to any of the meetings, half the public events & his flat refusal to share a platform with Cameron on this epochal decision because that offended his socialist instincts despite the clear polling that it would make a huge difference amongst wavering Labour supporters?
Yes, clearly he was very committed to the Remain campaign. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
posted by pharm at 1:19 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes, clearly he was very committed to the Remain campaign. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
posted by pharm at 1:19 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Fair enough, he wasn't that bothered about staying in the EU.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:29 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:29 PM on June 28, 2016
What Labour and any other party of the left needs to do now is sell the electorate the independent UK they thought they were voting for...
They thought they were voting for an independent UK?
Help me out here, my history is a bit rusty. Hasn't the UK been independent, like, forever? Isn't it usually other countries that declare independence from the UK? (Or at least try to, like Scotland.)
Or is this just another lie inflicted on unsuspecting subjects and half the country will wake up any minute now, discovering that the UK is, actually, an independent country already? Kind of like when they discovered that the Brexit will not keep them immigants out of the country and they will still need to pay the EU membership fee if they want to keep trading with the EU?
posted by sour cream at 1:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
They thought they were voting for an independent UK?
Help me out here, my history is a bit rusty. Hasn't the UK been independent, like, forever? Isn't it usually other countries that declare independence from the UK? (Or at least try to, like Scotland.)
Or is this just another lie inflicted on unsuspecting subjects and half the country will wake up any minute now, discovering that the UK is, actually, an independent country already? Kind of like when they discovered that the Brexit will not keep them immigants out of the country and they will still need to pay the EU membership fee if they want to keep trading with the EU?
posted by sour cream at 1:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
"The people are angry, justifiably so, and the Brexit leaders gave them a convenient, but ultimately wrong, target for that anger: foreigners. If the left can somehow re-channel that anger toward the real cause of people's suffering: the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires, they'll gradually let go of their bigotry"
If you haven't already noticed, the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires are already hated, yet bigotry seems to continue at pace.
It wasn't just the Brexit leaders— that's letting everyone off far too easily. I've been hearing variations of "coming over here, taking our jobs" for as long as I can remember, from both Labour and the Conservatives because they just have to mention the terrible asylum seekers or immigrants "flooding our country" to explain how they'll fix everything right after the next election.
They've build up this momentum of danger and hate for so long that now that it's truth in many peoples minds and they're still too afraid (apart from Scotland) to say we welcome immigrants with open arms to our country, they work hard, make us more productive and make the UK stronger.
If you're looking for someone to blame, forget the banks— that's piddly shit and look at the political parties instead.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:37 PM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
If you haven't already noticed, the banks, oligarchs and tax-evading billionaires are already hated, yet bigotry seems to continue at pace.
It wasn't just the Brexit leaders— that's letting everyone off far too easily. I've been hearing variations of "coming over here, taking our jobs" for as long as I can remember, from both Labour and the Conservatives because they just have to mention the terrible asylum seekers or immigrants "flooding our country" to explain how they'll fix everything right after the next election.
They've build up this momentum of danger and hate for so long that now that it's truth in many peoples minds and they're still too afraid (apart from Scotland) to say we welcome immigrants with open arms to our country, they work hard, make us more productive and make the UK stronger.
If you're looking for someone to blame, forget the banks— that's piddly shit and look at the political parties instead.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:37 PM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
the coup plotters, who have been exposed by the press as having plotted it all two weeks ago regardless of the ref result).
is there a cite for that? Thx.
posted by progosk at 1:44 PM on June 28, 2016
is there a cite for that? Thx.
posted by progosk at 1:44 PM on June 28, 2016
Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum (13th June).
Other sources report that there were several competing coup plots and that these idiots even ended up fighting each other in their haste to rescue the people. Angela Eagle, possibly now the Guardian's 'front runner', has been formally asked by her constituency to back Corbyn instead.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Other sources report that there were several competing coup plots and that these idiots even ended up fighting each other in their haste to rescue the people. Angela Eagle, possibly now the Guardian's 'front runner', has been formally asked by her constituency to back Corbyn instead.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
As an outsider looking in, I'm finding that the most disheartening thing about all this is the notion--shared by both Left (hopefully and fearfully) and Right (with the same delusional overconfidence that brought them here in the first place) --that somehow the EU views Brexit as an event requiring a mere reboot and restructuring of UK-EU relations that, once all the messy domestic business gets settled, will proceed apace in the same rational, diplomatic tenor that characterized previous negotiations.
It will not.
The UK (as a rational nation-state actor rather than a collection of citizens) has radically broken faith with Europe, in a manner that precludes ANY sort of rapprochement Britain seems to assume will naturally occur. And now, whatever small reservoir of goodwill among the MEP membership that might have helped smooth the transition was probably pissed away today by Mr. Farrage's utterly despicable behavior in Brussels. There is already a hardening of attitudes occurring (one need only look at the tone change in Chancellor Merkel's comments between Thursday and today to see it). This growing antipathy, reinforced by the utter shambles the British government has thrown itself into (who will negotiate? And, given the blithe manner in which the UK has thrown away so many previously hard-fought agreements, does anyone even have the legitimacy to do so?), signals-- to me at least--that the UK is in for much much more pain and dislocation than even the more pessimistic sectors of British society have wanted to heretofore admit.
posted by Chrischris at 2:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
It will not.
The UK (as a rational nation-state actor rather than a collection of citizens) has radically broken faith with Europe, in a manner that precludes ANY sort of rapprochement Britain seems to assume will naturally occur. And now, whatever small reservoir of goodwill among the MEP membership that might have helped smooth the transition was probably pissed away today by Mr. Farrage's utterly despicable behavior in Brussels. There is already a hardening of attitudes occurring (one need only look at the tone change in Chancellor Merkel's comments between Thursday and today to see it). This growing antipathy, reinforced by the utter shambles the British government has thrown itself into (who will negotiate? And, given the blithe manner in which the UK has thrown away so many previously hard-fought agreements, does anyone even have the legitimacy to do so?), signals-- to me at least--that the UK is in for much much more pain and dislocation than even the more pessimistic sectors of British society have wanted to heretofore admit.
posted by Chrischris at 2:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
When commentators try to calculate the negative impact that Brexit will have on Britain, they tend to talk mainly of exports and imports, financial markets and military muscle. People have so far talked little about the asset that most normal Europeans most admire most about Great Britain: the soft power that comes with cultural clout. Even those Germans who complain that Britain was never truly part of the European family anyway will concede that most of their compatriots don’t know who the French equivalent of James Bond is, or the Polish Mick Jagger. via
posted by infini at 2:16 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:16 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Has Article 50 Been Invoked?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:19 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:19 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
Cameron speaking at the EU live now.
The Sun has a question about immigration.
I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.
posted by Talez at 2:31 PM on June 28, 2016
The Sun has a question about immigration.
I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you.
posted by Talez at 2:31 PM on June 28, 2016
Cameron's now saying that Parliament shouldn't fail to invoke Article 50 and points out that Parliament voted overwhelmingly to hold the referendum. That language can't be a mistake; I wonder why he's so willing to root out and rip off any political cover the government might have for unwinding this. (I suppose one's answer to that question depends on how one views pressing on with exit or finding a way to not exit.)
posted by fireoyster at 2:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fireoyster at 2:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ian Welsh: Leave Won Because It Has a Better Story
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]
Leave’s story is as follows:It’s Still the Iraq War, Stupid. - "No rational person could blame Jeremy Corbyn for Brexit. So why are the Blairites moving against Corbyn now, with such precipitate haste? The answer is the Chilcot Report. "
1.Your life sucks and you do not have a job, or a good job.
2.There are a lot of immigrants. They have jobs and many of them have good jobs.
3.If there were less immigrants, you’d have those jobs.
Leave’s story is coherent. It has defined the problem and proposed a solution. The solution won’t work, but Leave says, “We got a problem, and we can fix it, and your life will be better.”
Remain’s story is this:
1.Your life is as good as it’s going to get.
2.Leaving won’t help, it will make your life even worse.
3.Your life will continue to get worse, regardless of whether you leave. “Remaining” will simply slow down the process of your life getting worse.
Now, Remain’s story is true. “Life is a shit sandwich, but you don’t want to eat a bigger shit sandwich sooner than is absolutely necessary.”
That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:36 PM on June 28, 2016 [31 favorites]
Knowing Cameron, in his mind, this is probably still all about sticking it to his enemies in his own party. We are ruled by petty shitbirds.
posted by skybluepink at 2:37 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 2:37 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Juncker and other EU leadership briefing now. He's quite clear that there will be no negotiation until there is notification under Article 50. Now even he's marveling that the leavers had no plan and hopes the British Government figures out what the hell it wants and triggers Article 50 as soon as possible because nobody wants to wait months.
posted by zachlipton at 2:43 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 2:43 PM on June 28, 2016
Dutch PM says first step is Article 50 then negotiations, ball is in UK court but EU can not sit still.
posted by PenDevil at 2:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by PenDevil at 2:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
>Now, Remain’s story is true. “Life is a shit sandwich, but you don’t want to eat a bigger shit sandwich sooner than is absolutely necessary.”
That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.
I guess it's too late now—Remain lost, and Labour's current implosion means there is no one left to pick up the pieces—but isn't a missing part of the argument that, "you're life's a shit sandwich, it's going to get worse... we have a plan for improving your life without exiting the EU?"
The first thing to promise is massive Keynesian reinvestment (the new federal government in Canada is more than willing to go down this road, whether Canada in fact needs it or not, and the whole world is watching) in public services, notably public housing, post-secondary education (make it free), childcare, transportation, all that stuff.
Is any party in Britain arguing for deficit spending?
posted by My Dad at 2:53 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.
I guess it's too late now—Remain lost, and Labour's current implosion means there is no one left to pick up the pieces—but isn't a missing part of the argument that, "you're life's a shit sandwich, it's going to get worse... we have a plan for improving your life without exiting the EU?"
The first thing to promise is massive Keynesian reinvestment (the new federal government in Canada is more than willing to go down this road, whether Canada in fact needs it or not, and the whole world is watching) in public services, notably public housing, post-secondary education (make it free), childcare, transportation, all that stuff.
Is any party in Britain arguing for deficit spending?
posted by My Dad at 2:53 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, things might not be so bad. The UK is out of the EU and might lose Scotland and N. Ireland, but they might get back Hong Kong!
posted by FJT at 2:53 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by FJT at 2:53 PM on June 28, 2016
That narrative is not going to win against a lie which says: “We can make your life not a shit sandwich”.
This is also a big part of my admittedly vague understanding of the 1980 Reagan campaign.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is also a big part of my admittedly vague understanding of the 1980 Reagan campaign.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is also a big part of my admittedly vague understanding of the 1980 Reagan campaign.
Reagan was more of a "Carter has made you a shit sandwich by increasing the prime rate to 20% and he's letting those Persian Ayatollahs walk all over him! I'll fix it all!" Then he gracefully rode the funds rate going down, surfing the increase in growth and economic output you naturally get by cutting a prime rate from 20 to 12%, and declared it a "New Morning in America".
posted by Talez at 3:06 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Reagan was more of a "Carter has made you a shit sandwich by increasing the prime rate to 20% and he's letting those Persian Ayatollahs walk all over him! I'll fix it all!" Then he gracefully rode the funds rate going down, surfing the increase in growth and economic output you naturally get by cutting a prime rate from 20 to 12%, and declared it a "New Morning in America".
posted by Talez at 3:06 PM on June 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ok but isn't this more like "the same Thatcherites who served you or your parents the shit sandwich in the first place now are lying to you that they'll make your life less shit by shutting down the sewage treatment plant?"
posted by zachlipton at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 3:14 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
The leave vote seemed to me to have a simpler message, which was "we will make everybody's life a shit sandwich, so at least you'll have to suffer too." If you're hurting and the people in power aren't helping, then sometimes your strongest instinct is to make them hurt as well.
posted by phooky at 3:18 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by phooky at 3:18 PM on June 28, 2016
No, that really wasn't there. I mean, maybe there are people who are happy about that in retrospect, but it wasn't a part of the propaganda. Any warnings of negative repercussions were dismissed as Doom and Gloom and scaremongering.
posted by Grangousier at 3:20 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 3:20 PM on June 28, 2016
The first thing to promise is massive Keynesian reinvestment (the new federal government in Canada is more than willing to go down this road, whether Canada in fact needs it or not, and the whole world is watching) in public services, notably public housing, post-secondary education (make it free), childcare, transportation, all that stuff
The trick is that you have to do this in a way that doesn't divide the have-nots from the have-slightly-more-than-nots. Otherwise the people who are barely doing okay on hard work and going to get resentful of the "lucky" poor getting all this free stuff they don't and you're back to square one.
posted by middleclasstool at 3:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The trick is that you have to do this in a way that doesn't divide the have-nots from the have-slightly-more-than-nots. Otherwise the people who are barely doing okay on hard work and going to get resentful of the "lucky" poor getting all this free stuff they don't and you're back to square one.
posted by middleclasstool at 3:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has urged Britain to prevent further incidents of xenophobic abuse in the wake of the vote to leave the European Union, and to prosecute perpetrators.
The British prime minster used his last Brussels summit to tell Angela Merkel, François Hollande and other European heads of government that anxieties about unrestricted freedom of movement were at the heart of the decision by Britons to reject the EU.
posted by infini at 3:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
The British prime minster used his last Brussels summit to tell Angela Merkel, François Hollande and other European heads of government that anxieties about unrestricted freedom of movement were at the heart of the decision by Britons to reject the EU.
posted by infini at 3:21 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Is any party in Britain arguing for deficit spending?
The Remain contingent were slightly hamstrung - they could hardly argue that people's economic woes were due to the seven years of pointless austerity budgets and kleptocratic selling off of the country's assets to David Cameron's rich mates, because it was the self-same people who responsible for all of that who were now running Remain.
Equally, while Corbyn could have come out and said "It's not the EU responsible for the destruction of the working class, it's these fuckers in the New Labour and the Tory party", that would have split the Remain faction and the resulting infighting would probably have been just as damaging to the campaign as a whole.
How do you spin "it's not immigrants' fault" when the answer to "whose fault is it then?" is "ours, and the people we're sharing a platform with"? You can't, and the shifty dissembling results have turned everyone off.
posted by tinkletown at 3:25 PM on June 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
The Remain contingent were slightly hamstrung - they could hardly argue that people's economic woes were due to the seven years of pointless austerity budgets and kleptocratic selling off of the country's assets to David Cameron's rich mates, because it was the self-same people who responsible for all of that who were now running Remain.
Equally, while Corbyn could have come out and said "It's not the EU responsible for the destruction of the working class, it's these fuckers in the New Labour and the Tory party", that would have split the Remain faction and the resulting infighting would probably have been just as damaging to the campaign as a whole.
How do you spin "it's not immigrants' fault" when the answer to "whose fault is it then?" is "ours, and the people we're sharing a platform with"? You can't, and the shifty dissembling results have turned everyone off.
posted by tinkletown at 3:25 PM on June 28, 2016 [32 favorites]
Ryanair will not deploy new aircraft on routes to and from the UK next year, following the Brexit vote, and will instead focus on the European Union.
The Irish low-cost airline, will "pivot all of our growth into the European Union," chief executive Michael O'Leary told the Wall Street Journal.
Ryanair carries more than 100 million passengers a year and UK routes account for 40 million of those travellers.
Ryanair has its largest hub at London's Stansted Airport.
The airline's shares have fallen more than 23% since the United Kingdom voted on Thursday to leave the European Union.
Mr O'Leary, one of the most vocal business leaders campaigning in favour of continued EU membership, had repeatedly warned he would cut investment in Britain if it voted to leave
posted by infini at 3:28 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Irish low-cost airline, will "pivot all of our growth into the European Union," chief executive Michael O'Leary told the Wall Street Journal.
Ryanair carries more than 100 million passengers a year and UK routes account for 40 million of those travellers.
Ryanair has its largest hub at London's Stansted Airport.
The airline's shares have fallen more than 23% since the United Kingdom voted on Thursday to leave the European Union.
Mr O'Leary, one of the most vocal business leaders campaigning in favour of continued EU membership, had repeatedly warned he would cut investment in Britain if it voted to leave
posted by infini at 3:28 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
“We did not discuss the possibility that the UK will not invoke article 50, and I consider this an impossibility.” - Merkel
posted by vbfg at 3:35 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by vbfg at 3:35 PM on June 28, 2016
It’s Still the Iraq War, Stupid. - "No rational person could blame Jeremy Corbyn for Brexit. So why are the Blairites moving against Corbyn now, with such precipitate haste? The answer is the Chilcot Report. "
That blog post claims that "supporters of Israel" who are "defined by their enthusiasm for bombing campaigns that kill Muslim children" and are "100% of those who have promoted accusations of anti-Semitism" are the ones opposing Corbyn. Not only are they bloodthirsty but they are using "manufactured" accusations of antisemitism for their own advantage: "100% of those accused of anti-Semitism were active opponents of the Iraq War." This argument actually comprises half the blog post - the remaining bit about Chilcot is half or less.
Modern antisemitism is essentially a conspiracy theory about malevolent power wielded by Jews. Craig Murray buys into that hook, line, and sinker. Like so many antisemites he's inoculated from reality: any Jewish concerns are merely promoting a
That whole blog post is a mess, and its author is a kook with what looks like a sad history. He and his racist conspiracy theories shouldn't get any attention, particularly here.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [30 favorites]
That blog post claims that "supporters of Israel" who are "defined by their enthusiasm for bombing campaigns that kill Muslim children" and are "100% of those who have promoted accusations of anti-Semitism" are the ones opposing Corbyn. Not only are they bloodthirsty but they are using "manufactured" accusations of antisemitism for their own advantage: "100% of those accused of anti-Semitism were active opponents of the Iraq War." This argument actually comprises half the blog post - the remaining bit about Chilcot is half or less.
Modern antisemitism is essentially a conspiracy theory about malevolent power wielded by Jews. Craig Murray buys into that hook, line, and sinker. Like so many antisemites he's inoculated from reality: any Jewish concerns are merely promoting a
manufactured row about. The quotation marks are his, implying that antisemitism isn't even a thing.anti-Semitism
That whole blog post is a mess, and its author is a kook with what looks like a sad history. He and his racist conspiracy theories shouldn't get any attention, particularly here.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:45 PM on June 28, 2016 [30 favorites]
tinkletown: "How do you spin "it's not immigrants' fault" when the answer to "whose fault is it then?" is "ours, and the people we're sharing a platform with"? "
This is precisely the crux of my questions from earlier up-thread. I still don't fully understand why the general public isn't more angry at the actual UK government itself? If things are so messed up, how did the Conservatives increase their lead and land a majority just a year ago? The usual theory is that if the people in a democracy are dissatisfied, they'll elect different people with different policies. But that doesn't seem to have happened. There seems to be plenty of anger to go around but it doesn't seem to me (again, as an outsider) that enough has been directed at the Conservatives who've been in charge for six years and pushed (imo) quite brutal austerity policies.
posted by mhum at 3:48 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is precisely the crux of my questions from earlier up-thread. I still don't fully understand why the general public isn't more angry at the actual UK government itself? If things are so messed up, how did the Conservatives increase their lead and land a majority just a year ago? The usual theory is that if the people in a democracy are dissatisfied, they'll elect different people with different policies. But that doesn't seem to have happened. There seems to be plenty of anger to go around but it doesn't seem to me (again, as an outsider) that enough has been directed at the Conservatives who've been in charge for six years and pushed (imo) quite brutal austerity policies.
posted by mhum at 3:48 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm prepared to believe (for the sake of argument if nothing else) that Corbyn is inadequate as a leader. But are any of his opponents within Labour in a position to offer a real alternative to the neoliberal, pro-austerity consensus? Because that's what's fuelling the rise of the racist right, and however much middle ground there is to be won from the Conservatives after the referendum, Labour isn't going to win the next election by offering yet another iteration of business as usual.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 3:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thank you Joe. Indeed, folks are already coming out of the woodwork to claim that the no confidence vote is a Zionist plot.
posted by zachlipton at 3:51 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 3:51 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
that'll teach me to vet my links better, thanks Joe.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:59 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
> This is precisely the crux of my questions from earlier up-thread. I still don't fully understand why the general public isn't more angry at the actual UK government itself?
1) Iraq
2) The crash
The narrative for both belong to Labour. Specifically, a particular wing of Labour that had steered it in a new direction. They were easily portrayed as a metropolitan elite at the time, but the Tories were so toxic, in large part because of their divisions over Europe, that they won landslides. That set of swing voters in the middle were okay and stuck with them.
Iraq was a knock right from the off, but with the crash too it was fatal. The middle had been hurt and rejoined the Tory tribe.
It gets stranger though, because recall that they were in coalition with the Lib Dems first time round. The Lib Dems were punished for Tory policy by being associated with it. People angry with the Lib Dems for Tory policy used strategic voting to punish Lib Dems in the last election, which meant that in a lot of seats they voted Tory. Meanwhile, UKIP was eating both natural Labour support and urging the Tories to the right on Europe.
So we went full Tory. And now, by the will of the people, they have nothing to be divided about.
posted by vbfg at 4:03 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
1) Iraq
2) The crash
The narrative for both belong to Labour. Specifically, a particular wing of Labour that had steered it in a new direction. They were easily portrayed as a metropolitan elite at the time, but the Tories were so toxic, in large part because of their divisions over Europe, that they won landslides. That set of swing voters in the middle were okay and stuck with them.
Iraq was a knock right from the off, but with the crash too it was fatal. The middle had been hurt and rejoined the Tory tribe.
It gets stranger though, because recall that they were in coalition with the Lib Dems first time round. The Lib Dems were punished for Tory policy by being associated with it. People angry with the Lib Dems for Tory policy used strategic voting to punish Lib Dems in the last election, which meant that in a lot of seats they voted Tory. Meanwhile, UKIP was eating both natural Labour support and urging the Tories to the right on Europe.
So we went full Tory. And now, by the will of the people, they have nothing to be divided about.
posted by vbfg at 4:03 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
That said, is there any merit in the argument that the Chilcot Report is relevant? Not because a cabal of Zionists are trying to force the issue by paying people off or whatever deeply harmful nonsense people are peddling today, but because it brings up a lot of bad memories and exposes an old divide between the Blairites and the "true left?" Or is this line of thinking stupid and it's all just brexit brexit brexit?
posted by zachlipton at 4:05 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 4:05 PM on June 28, 2016
Jesus, with the anti-Semitism. I wish it weren't such a predictable response to, well, anything.
posted by OmieWise at 4:05 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 4:05 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I choose to believe that 'a simple cartoon [Vox]' is simply the OP referring (accurately) to Vox.
posted by waxbanks at 4:07 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by waxbanks at 4:07 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Mhum, I don't know why they aren't angry. They haven't voted for anybody else because there hasn't been anybody different to vote for - prior to Corbyn, the Labour Party abstained on bills such as the Welfare Bill (instead of, you know, opposing it).
The options were Tories or ersatz-Tories. Look as Cleggmania - as soon as there was the merest whisper of an alternative, people leapt on board.
Or on preview, what vbfg said.
posted by tinkletown at 4:13 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
The options were Tories or ersatz-Tories. Look as Cleggmania - as soon as there was the merest whisper of an alternative, people leapt on board.
Or on preview, what vbfg said.
posted by tinkletown at 4:13 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jeremy Corbyn is preparing to call for Tony Blair to be investigated for war crimes in the wake of a damning Chilcot report into Britain's involvement in the Iraq War. So yes the Chilcot report is slightly relevent for those wondering about the coordination of the resignations in the Shadow Cabinet.
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on June 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
But are any of his opponents within Labour in a position to offer a real alternative to the neoliberal, pro-austerity consensus?
But that's what's so worrying - put all your money on one man like that and when he fails, he brings the whole project down with him. The worries about his competence are that the chances of failure are almost certain, and that will be it for left-wing social democracy for another generation. And his movement has become so insular that when they set Lynton Crosby loose on them, he'll have them for breakfast. He'll have them for a pre-breakfast aperitif.
I don't like the idea of always keeping one eye open to see what Lynton Crosby will do, but that beast is out there. There's no point in ignoring it.
I'm sorry, as a bit of a lefty I usually agree with my Twitter feed, but it's gone full-on Dave Spart.
posted by Grangousier at 4:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
But that's what's so worrying - put all your money on one man like that and when he fails, he brings the whole project down with him. The worries about his competence are that the chances of failure are almost certain, and that will be it for left-wing social democracy for another generation. And his movement has become so insular that when they set Lynton Crosby loose on them, he'll have them for breakfast. He'll have them for a pre-breakfast aperitif.
I don't like the idea of always keeping one eye open to see what Lynton Crosby will do, but that beast is out there. There's no point in ignoring it.
I'm sorry, as a bit of a lefty I usually agree with my Twitter feed, but it's gone full-on Dave Spart.
posted by Grangousier at 4:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Muslim Council of Britain (yesterday) reported 100 incidents of hate crimes following the referendum.
The scary question is how many of these incidents are really attributed to the referendum vs the kind of thing that has been happening all along and often gone unreported?
posted by zachlipton at 4:29 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
The scary question is how many of these incidents are really attributed to the referendum vs the kind of thing that has been happening all along and often gone unreported?
posted by zachlipton at 4:29 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
is there any merit in the argument that the Chilcot Report is relevant?
His argument is that even without the Brexit debacle, there would have been an anti-Corbyn revolt of such magnitude that the Speaker would have been justified in recognising someone else as Leader of the Labour Party in the House of Commons. Really? And that the point of this hypothetical revolt wouldn't be to silence Corbyn (which would be impossible) but to ensure that when Corbyn criticised the long-departed ex PM Blair, he did so as merely a private MP, albeit one recognised by the Labour Party itself as its leader in Parliament. This would be, he thinks, "as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin."
Yeah, well, the guy's a kook. Still, I'm trying to imagine what impact it would have had if this clownfest wasn't going on. It's very likely that both pre-Corbyn Labour and the Tories would have liked to have buried the report, but suppose Corbyn used all his personal gravitas and presence to deliver a ringing denunciation of those feckless leaders who brought the UK a war it neither needed nor wanted.
My mental image is a tweedy guy standing near the despatch boxes, bleating about a terrible tragedy. A few "hear hears" from behind him mostly outweigh the uncomfortable looks from many of his colleagues. A clip appears on the news ... a photo in The Guardian ... the rest is silence.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:33 PM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
His argument is that even without the Brexit debacle, there would have been an anti-Corbyn revolt of such magnitude that the Speaker would have been justified in recognising someone else as Leader of the Labour Party in the House of Commons. Really? And that the point of this hypothetical revolt wouldn't be to silence Corbyn (which would be impossible) but to ensure that when Corbyn criticised the long-departed ex PM Blair, he did so as merely a private MP, albeit one recognised by the Labour Party itself as its leader in Parliament. This would be, he thinks, "as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin."
Yeah, well, the guy's a kook. Still, I'm trying to imagine what impact it would have had if this clownfest wasn't going on. It's very likely that both pre-Corbyn Labour and the Tories would have liked to have buried the report, but suppose Corbyn used all his personal gravitas and presence to deliver a ringing denunciation of those feckless leaders who brought the UK a war it neither needed nor wanted.
My mental image is a tweedy guy standing near the despatch boxes, bleating about a terrible tragedy. A few "hear hears" from behind him mostly outweigh the uncomfortable looks from many of his colleagues. A clip appears on the news ... a photo in The Guardian ... the rest is silence.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:33 PM on June 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
Thanks, tinkletown and vbfg, for the background. I guess coming from a US and Canadian political context, I've become more used to the idea of political sentiment as a pendulum swinging between left and right. One side gets power, pushes a little bit too far in one direction, then the electorate tilts back to the other side. The exact endpoints of the pendulum may shift over time, but you're still presented with two, somewhat opposing views. If the mainstream political parties in the UK have become rather more uni-polar, that may leave the average voter fewer outlets for recourse. I guess I hadn't appreciated exactly how entrenched the (presumably) New Labour faction remained within the PLP (although maybe this shadow cabinet revolt is a manifestation of that?)
posted by mhum at 4:43 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mhum at 4:43 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Someone posted to Pornhub a video of Boris Johnson speaking after the referendum with the title "DUMB BRITISH BLONDE FUCKS 15 MILLION PEOPLE AT ONCE," to the seeming approval of Pornhub. No actual porn in either link.
posted by zachlipton at 5:07 PM on June 28, 2016 [57 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 5:07 PM on June 28, 2016 [57 favorites]
The depressing thing is that at the moment I think Jeremy Corbyn might be the most competent leader in either the Labour or the Conservative parties. (The two most competent leaders at present are of course Sturgeon and Farage). He was the most convincing leader in the election he stood in (the lowpoint being Liz Kendall staring at a computer screen while spouting platitudes pushing Andy Burnham having his parents say he was a good person into second).
The obvious candidate was Hillary Benn, of course, but either Corbyn knifed him skillfully (Tom Watson's plan?) or he really was caught leading the coup - either way he's in the wilderness.
Who can Labour offer right now who's better than Corbyn? If they can't they'll get Corbyn again.
For that matter who can the Tories? Both sides of their party have lost credibility.
posted by Francis at 5:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
The obvious candidate was Hillary Benn, of course, but either Corbyn knifed him skillfully (Tom Watson's plan?) or he really was caught leading the coup - either way he's in the wilderness.
Who can Labour offer right now who's better than Corbyn? If they can't they'll get Corbyn again.
For that matter who can the Tories? Both sides of their party have lost credibility.
posted by Francis at 5:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
From the Twitter buzz it sounds as if Tom Watson is about to be the next Labour leader. Mefi's own!
I know this conjecture was posted a while ago now, but it seems to have gone largely uncommented on that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is an (inactive) mefite, so I'll just highlight that here.
posted by zachlipton at 6:12 PM on June 28, 2016
I know this conjecture was posted a while ago now, but it seems to have gone largely uncommented on that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is an (inactive) mefite, so I'll just highlight that here.
posted by zachlipton at 6:12 PM on June 28, 2016
it seems to have gone largely uncommented on that the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party is an (inactive) mefite
His one FPP fulfills my expectations of an MP.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
His one FPP fulfills my expectations of an MP.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
What are the odds of David Miliband coming back?
He's my boss's boss's boss now PLEASE DON'T TAKE HIM
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
He's my boss's boss's boss now PLEASE DON'T TAKE HIM
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
So all Labour needs now is anyone reasonably non-incompetent and not anti-charismatic to replace Corbyn as leader in the next: "Sorry about all that bother, Let's Reunite EU!" election campaign?
Could that work?
posted by ovvl at 7:16 PM on June 28, 2016
Could that work?
posted by ovvl at 7:16 PM on June 28, 2016
So all Labour needs now is anyone reasonably non-incompetent and not anti-charismatic to replace Corbyn
Justin Trudeau, I guess?
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Justin Trudeau, I guess?
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
he's a Liberal, more's the pity.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:42 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:42 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Activity from baggymp:posted by notyou at 7:46 PM on June 28, 2016 [10 favorites]
How to win the Labour Party?
Shall I serve my constituents well and develop strong ties with influential interests via demonstration of competence and ability and mutual aid? Or shall I wait for a crisis brought on by opportunists and demagogues that threatens to fracture the whole of the UK -- possibly all of Europe -- and then carpe diem? Both? Other? [more inside]
The United Nations has confirmed that the UK's Austerity policies breach the UK’s international human rights obligations. Now, how many of you want to blame the EU? Aw, forget the EU, get out of the UN, now! Oh, wait...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:47 PM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:47 PM on June 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Even if there were an obvious leader on either side (any of the many sides, I guess) it wouldn't change the fact that the UK is now in a very weak position. Even if it could delay triggering Article 50 indefinitely, it's hardly likely to have any further power in EU deliberations. The UK is like a spouse who has moved out of the family home and rented a flat somewhere. Maybe s/he doesn't want to get a divorce, maybe s/he is having second thoughts. The situation has changed, though, and wishing won't restore the status quo.
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
he's a Liberal, more's the pity.
But also he has passable French, I think, which could be important for the next PM...
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
But also he has passable French, I think, which could be important for the next PM...
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Refusing to negotiate until article 50 is definitely the strong move for the EU negotiators.
At this point the referendum pretty much makes trying to ignore the result political suicide so let's be honest short of some arcane parliament procedure there really isn't a whole lot left to do other than push the button.
The power brokers in Brussels are in a win - win scenario.
England cannot afford to lose access to the financial passport, it's an absolutely critical element to the UK's status in financial markets. France and Germany have been trying to promote Paris and Frankfurt as alternatives to London but increased banking regulation limits the opportunities for growth. Furthermore the US firms have liked the ability to set up subsidiaries in London as a way of doing business throughout the EU.
Scenario 1-
UK accepts EEA because of pressure by financial firms
UK is forced to accept lots of EU regulations that they would've previously been able to block
Financial firms in the City are still strong but many of their competitive advantages vis-a-vis the continental banks disappear since they are forced to accept tighter banking regulations
Scenario 2-
UK goes full nativist
Banking interests abandon the City in droves most moving to establish increased presence in Paris and Frankfurt
Increased economic growth in the EU from capturing much of the UK's current economic growth engine
Crushing nationalist dissent against the EU
Never having to deal with Farage ever again
It's not really shocking that Junckers, Merkel, etc are taking a hard line stance. Taking a hard line plus the fall out from Brexit seems to have weakened the power of nationalist parties in many of the EU states because people that might've been willing to push a hardline against Brussels now see the consequences in the UK. At this point in time I don't even think that it's a negotiating tactic, this is the type of thing you do when you know that your opponent has basically exposed their position and has basically no strategy for recovering the initiative.
posted by vuron at 8:24 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
At this point the referendum pretty much makes trying to ignore the result political suicide so let's be honest short of some arcane parliament procedure there really isn't a whole lot left to do other than push the button.
The power brokers in Brussels are in a win - win scenario.
England cannot afford to lose access to the financial passport, it's an absolutely critical element to the UK's status in financial markets. France and Germany have been trying to promote Paris and Frankfurt as alternatives to London but increased banking regulation limits the opportunities for growth. Furthermore the US firms have liked the ability to set up subsidiaries in London as a way of doing business throughout the EU.
Scenario 1-
UK accepts EEA because of pressure by financial firms
UK is forced to accept lots of EU regulations that they would've previously been able to block
Financial firms in the City are still strong but many of their competitive advantages vis-a-vis the continental banks disappear since they are forced to accept tighter banking regulations
Scenario 2-
UK goes full nativist
Banking interests abandon the City in droves most moving to establish increased presence in Paris and Frankfurt
Increased economic growth in the EU from capturing much of the UK's current economic growth engine
Crushing nationalist dissent against the EU
Never having to deal with Farage ever again
It's not really shocking that Junckers, Merkel, etc are taking a hard line stance. Taking a hard line plus the fall out from Brexit seems to have weakened the power of nationalist parties in many of the EU states because people that might've been willing to push a hardline against Brussels now see the consequences in the UK. At this point in time I don't even think that it's a negotiating tactic, this is the type of thing you do when you know that your opponent has basically exposed their position and has basically no strategy for recovering the initiative.
posted by vuron at 8:24 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
I know that trading away the entire finance industry seems like a bit much but you don't understand, these are magic sovereignty beans.
posted by XMLicious at 8:46 PM on June 28, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 8:46 PM on June 28, 2016 [27 favorites]
At this point the referendum pretty much makes trying to ignore the result political suicide [...]
Step 1: Appoint a commission to study the problem, recommend strategies, identify bodies needed to implement changes.
Step 2: Wait for the result.
Step 3: Appoint people to the bodies identified in Step 1.
Step 4: Wait for these bodies to report.
Step 5: Get in a fight about the makeup of the bodies or their reports. Go back to Step 1.
Keep going until there's a good reason to say that the referendum has been overtaken by results - e.g., UKIP gets its arse kicked or something. Next election, run on a no-Leave platform. If you win, fine. If you lose, watch the other party run through the same delaying tactics while you snipe from the sidelines.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
Step 1: Appoint a commission to study the problem, recommend strategies, identify bodies needed to implement changes.
Step 2: Wait for the result.
Step 3: Appoint people to the bodies identified in Step 1.
Step 4: Wait for these bodies to report.
Step 5: Get in a fight about the makeup of the bodies or their reports. Go back to Step 1.
Keep going until there's a good reason to say that the referendum has been overtaken by results - e.g., UKIP gets its arse kicked or something. Next election, run on a no-Leave platform. If you win, fine. If you lose, watch the other party run through the same delaying tactics while you snipe from the sidelines.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:50 PM on June 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
as has been said elsewhere (upthread?), muddling through is pretty much the most british way to get by things.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ahh, maybe the EU is based upon admiralty law instead of common law so all that Parliament needs to do is submit some strange paperwork to the EU so they can redeem their strawman.
Basically instead of sending millions to Brussels suddenly the UK would be able to access secret bank accounts controlled by the Gnomes of Zurich giving all British citizens of Anglo-Saxon or Norman descent some astronomical sum of money.
After that the UK be free to send back any EU national they want as well as anyone of non-European heritage.
QE2 would even be free to reclaim her role as Empress of India.
posted by vuron at 9:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Basically instead of sending millions to Brussels suddenly the UK would be able to access secret bank accounts controlled by the Gnomes of Zurich giving all British citizens of Anglo-Saxon or Norman descent some astronomical sum of money.
After that the UK be free to send back any EU national they want as well as anyone of non-European heritage.
QE2 would even be free to reclaim her role as Empress of India.
posted by vuron at 9:01 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
QE2 would even be free to reclaim her role as Empress of India.
After the news that Ian Paisley is encouraging everyone who is eligible to get Irish passports, uh, I guess all bets are off.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:06 PM on June 28, 2016
After the news that Ian Paisley is encouraging everyone who is eligible to get Irish passports, uh, I guess all bets are off.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:06 PM on June 28, 2016
Keep going until there's a good reason to say that the referendum has been overtaken by results - e.g., UKIP gets its arse kicked or something. Next election, run on a no-Leave platform. If you win, fine. If you lose, watch the other party run through the same delaying tactics while you snipe from the sidelines.
As the EU, what, listens to Girl From Ipanema? How, how... I mean, what?
posted by haapsane at 9:15 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
As the EU, what, listens to Girl From Ipanema? How, how... I mean, what?
posted by haapsane at 9:15 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cambridge don (and national treasure) Mary Beard writes here:
When my college wants to make any change to its statutes, it demands that there is a two thirds majority of those present and voting. I am told that the same is true in some Trades Unions, and that a two thirds majority in both houses is required to change the US constitution (with similar rules in other legislatures). This might seem like a bit of built in conservatism, and may be it is. But it does something really important: that is, ensure that there is a real head of steam, and a real majority, behind big and often irrevocable changes.
As she goes on to say, and as I also said in the previous thread, somewhere, it is *very* odd that we are all making such a fuss about a 52% share of a ~70% national vote. That is not a mandate for major constitutional change. Other far smaller organisations do not consider that a mandate. Why on earth should the British government?
There are indications that it will not.
posted by motty at 9:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
When my college wants to make any change to its statutes, it demands that there is a two thirds majority of those present and voting. I am told that the same is true in some Trades Unions, and that a two thirds majority in both houses is required to change the US constitution (with similar rules in other legislatures). This might seem like a bit of built in conservatism, and may be it is. But it does something really important: that is, ensure that there is a real head of steam, and a real majority, behind big and often irrevocable changes.
As she goes on to say, and as I also said in the previous thread, somewhere, it is *very* odd that we are all making such a fuss about a 52% share of a ~70% national vote. That is not a mandate for major constitutional change. Other far smaller organisations do not consider that a mandate. Why on earth should the British government?
There are indications that it will not.
posted by motty at 9:20 PM on June 28, 2016 [20 favorites]
I note that David Allen Green/Jack of Kent has a simple but compelling solution:
The 2016 Abolition Act
The 2016 Abolition Act
1. Other than for the purpose of giving effect to this Act, all events in 2016 shall be deemed to not have happened.posted by valetta at 9:43 PM on June 28, 2016 [38 favorites]
2. The year 2016 is abolished.
What are the chances that one or both Labor/Tories collapse in the next few weeks?
posted by humanfont at 9:44 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by humanfont at 9:44 PM on June 28, 2016
What are the chances that one or both Labor/Tories collapse in the next few weeks?
Happening now. Regardless of the weird mutant hell child that is spawned from dual sunderings left and right, ain't nobody gonna float article 50. So it's gonna hang there, dangling in the wind on a thread until everyone forgets it's there, and prays nobody is dumb or crazy enough to make it fall in the meantime.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:56 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Happening now. Regardless of the weird mutant hell child that is spawned from dual sunderings left and right, ain't nobody gonna float article 50. So it's gonna hang there, dangling in the wind on a thread until everyone forgets it's there, and prays nobody is dumb or crazy enough to make it fall in the meantime.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:56 PM on June 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
oh shit, I just realized. This REALLY IS 20X6
posted by rifflesby at 9:56 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 9:56 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
oops, on the rise of transnational fascism... not that it's all about money (or class ;) but thinking about spengler, to the extent that money and commerce help loosen, if not dissolve, the 'bonds of blood' so to speak, here's what fascism seems to offer:
which brings me back to quiggen (and judt!) on tribalism trumps neoliberalism:*
The world's losers are revolting, and Brexit is only the beginning
maybe?
>We have failed to educate entire generations on how to think critically and evaluate the options before them with wisdom, and we have failed to design democratic processes that buffer us against impetuous choices when faced with perilously high-stakes decisions. And now, in this democracy, we will pay the price for that failure.
The Priority of Democracy: Dissent Is the Health of the Democratic State - "We live in big, complex societies, which means we are thoroughly interdependent on each other, and that we will naturally have different ideas about how our life in common should go, and will have divergent interests. This means that politics we shall always have with us. It also means that political problems are largely ones about designing and reforming the institutions which shape how we interact with each other..."
---
[1] like discussion on the vagaries of the phillips curve :P
[2] developing countries, namely china, have benefited as well but growing within (intra-) country inequality may be just as bad or worse
[3] yay! as someone who thinks of basic income and/or helicopter money (+the death of banks & the UK green party platform! among other things...) as practical (rather than utopian ;)
posted by kliuless at 10:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you...and some thoughtful tweets from noahpinion on how best to counteract growing fascism and whether racism-shaming as a tactic is counterproductive:
- 11/...there are tons of [nationality] with racist attitudes who will fight against racism IF they have something stronger to believe in.
- 12/Racism IS the enemy. It's at the core of fascism, which is the great evil we face. But "racists" are just humans, who can be persuaded...
- 23/The alternative, I believe, is to *persuade* [nationality] who have some racist attitudes by appealing to forces *stronger* than racism.
- 24/Those include a desire for a better future, a belief in the [country] as a nation, and the ideal of individual freedom.
which brings me back to quiggen (and judt!) on tribalism trumps neoliberalism:*
But just as the economic ideology of neoliberalism lumbers on in zombie form, so, until recently has the political system it supported. Insurgents of various kinds have gained support nearly everywhere, but the alternation between different versions of neoliberalism has continued.[1]so what's the 'better future' on offer? esp if/when...
In 2016, all of this has broken down. Hardly anyone now believes in the assurances of the policy elite that they know what is best. It is clear that things have gone substantially wrong in the global economy. What is less clear is why things have gone wrong and what can be done to fix it.
On the left, the answer to the first question is relatively straightforward: the excesses of financialised capitalism have finally come home to roost... the benefits of globalisation had gone overwhelmingly to the top 1 per cent, or even the top 0.1 per cent,[2] of the population. On the other hand, the process of developing a coherent alternative has barely begun.
By contrast, the tribalists have a clear answer to both questions. The problem is not (or at least not primarily) to be located at the top of the class structure, among bankers and CEOs, but at the bottom, among immigrants and racial minorities who benefit from state protection at the expense of ordinary ‘people like us’...
[I]n the absence of something better, tribalist sentiment is only likely to grow. The great tragedy of the period since the GFC has been the failure of the left, broadly defined, to articulate a coherent alternative to, or even a clear critique of, the zombie ideas of neoliberalism. There are, to be sure, some signs of such an alternative, from Syriza in Greece to the Sanders campaign in the US, but so far none of these have been more than modestly successful. Nevertheless, if we are to avoid the dead end of tribalism, there is no alternative.[3]
The world's losers are revolting, and Brexit is only the beginning
maybe?
- The Netherlands' Upcoming Money-for-Nothing Experiment - "Next year, 250 residents in Utrecht and a few surrounding cities are slated to participate in a government program testing out a universal basic income."
- The Case for Unions to Support a Universal Basic Income - "How Andy Stern, the former head of the 2-million-strong SEIU, came around to the idea of giving everyone, even non-workers, a monthly stipend."
- Does President Barack Obama support basic income? "The way I describe it is that, because of automation, because of globalization, we're going to have to examine the social compact, the same way we did early in the 19th century and then again during and after the Great Depression. The notion of a 40-hour workweek, a minimum wage, child labor laws, etc. - those will have to be updated for these new realities."
- Chris Arnade: "Provide a process, other than an education in an elite school, that gives people meaning, solidarity, and value."
>We have failed to educate entire generations on how to think critically and evaluate the options before them with wisdom, and we have failed to design democratic processes that buffer us against impetuous choices when faced with perilously high-stakes decisions. And now, in this democracy, we will pay the price for that failure.
The Priority of Democracy: Dissent Is the Health of the Democratic State - "We live in big, complex societies, which means we are thoroughly interdependent on each other, and that we will naturally have different ideas about how our life in common should go, and will have divergent interests. This means that politics we shall always have with us. It also means that political problems are largely ones about designing and reforming the institutions which shape how we interact with each other..."
---
[1] like discussion on the vagaries of the phillips curve :P
[2] developing countries, namely china, have benefited as well but growing within (intra-) country inequality may be just as bad or worse
[3] yay! as someone who thinks of basic income and/or helicopter money (+the death of banks & the UK green party platform! among other things...) as practical (rather than utopian ;)
posted by kliuless at 10:10 PM on June 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
As she goes on to say, and as I also said in the previous thread, somewhere, it is *very* odd that we are all making such a fuss about a 52% share of a ~70% national vote.
Canada has been through this before. It's relevant here because Canada's experience was informed and influenced by interpretations of international law and concepts of national sovereignty. After the Quebec referendum in 1995, there was an effort to prevent a "50 per cent + 1" formula from legitimizing any referendum to secede. The irony of Canada's 1999 Clarity Act (which I think might be referenced in upcoming Brexit negotiations, or any legal challenge to the British referendum), is that it makes the results of a sovereignty referendum more ambiguous; the decision is left up to "political actors."
My point is that while universities and colleges may have more rigorous and airtight governance, countries, being idiosyncratic in nature, do not.
posted by My Dad at 10:13 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Canada has been through this before. It's relevant here because Canada's experience was informed and influenced by interpretations of international law and concepts of national sovereignty. After the Quebec referendum in 1995, there was an effort to prevent a "50 per cent + 1" formula from legitimizing any referendum to secede. The irony of Canada's 1999 Clarity Act (which I think might be referenced in upcoming Brexit negotiations, or any legal challenge to the British referendum), is that it makes the results of a sovereignty referendum more ambiguous; the decision is left up to "political actors."
My point is that while universities and colleges may have more rigorous and airtight governance, countries, being idiosyncratic in nature, do not.
posted by My Dad at 10:13 PM on June 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Word on Radio 4 this morning is that Angela Eagle will be the unity candidate in the Labour Civil War and that the SNP may request that they are made the official Opposition today as they have the largest unified group of MPs.
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:42 PM on June 28, 2016
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:42 PM on June 28, 2016
Here's a superb essay outlining the many mistakes made in the process of organising this referendum: Brexit Was A Con.
posted by motty at 10:55 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by motty at 10:55 PM on June 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
I am told that the same is true in some Trades Unions, and that a two thirds majority in both houses is required to change the US constitution (with similar rules in other legislatures).
Not to make this about the US, but changing our Constitution is far more difficult than this. That's why things like membership in international bodies doesn't get put up to a Constitutional amendment. Americans don't make such choices directly; we elect people to do or not do such things on our behalf, without changing the Constitution.
Yeah, I linked to about.com. Every other site was unnecessarily verbose.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:58 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not to make this about the US, but changing our Constitution is far more difficult than this. That's why things like membership in international bodies doesn't get put up to a Constitutional amendment. Americans don't make such choices directly; we elect people to do or not do such things on our behalf, without changing the Constitution.
Yeah, I linked to about.com. Every other site was unnecessarily verbose.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:58 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Word on Radio 4 this morning is that Angela Eagle will be the unity candidate in the Labour Civil War [...]
I know nothing about her but from the name alone I recognise that she is going to turn out to be a mystical superhero.
Now tell me that her Tory counterpart will be called Derek Darsted and I will sit back with a bag of popcorn.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:02 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know nothing about her but from the name alone I recognise that she is going to turn out to be a mystical superhero.
Now tell me that her Tory counterpart will be called Derek Darsted and I will sit back with a bag of popcorn.
posted by Joe in Australia at 11:02 PM on June 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
make their anger go away, you can at least steer them in the right direction.
Help me, here, because I have heard this talking point a lot and I would sincerely like to believe it. Can anyone cite a case in history where racist/nationalist rage has been successfully channeled into progressive goals. I'm drawing a blank, but it could be I'm focusing too much on pre-WW 2 Europe.
posted by frumiousb at 11:14 PM on June 28, 2016
Help me, here, because I have heard this talking point a lot and I would sincerely like to believe it. Can anyone cite a case in history where racist/nationalist rage has been successfully channeled into progressive goals. I'm drawing a blank, but it could be I'm focusing too much on pre-WW 2 Europe.
posted by frumiousb at 11:14 PM on June 28, 2016
I know that trading away the entire finance industry seems like a bit much but you don't understand, these are magic sovereignty beans.
It's attitudes like this that explain why Leave won and why they'd win again with an even bigger vote if the referendum was run again.
To your snark, much of the population replies: "The 'entire finance industry' you mention has only one reason to exist, and that is to literally steal everything and put it in tax havens. We want them gone and to do their stealing off someone else, but you tell us that this will only make things worse. We don't care, because a) it's morally wrong that they steal everything, and b) we have already had eight years of austerity since we gave them 500 billion in 2008, since when we have had politicians telling us it is going to hurt practically every time they open their mouths. Now we still have to listen to snark telling us we're stupid for wanting to eject the parasitic banks, along with one of Britain's most hated companies run by a megalomaniac psycho-capitalist, Ryanair. We'll take our chances, thanks."
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's attitudes like this that explain why Leave won and why they'd win again with an even bigger vote if the referendum was run again.
To your snark, much of the population replies: "The 'entire finance industry' you mention has only one reason to exist, and that is to literally steal everything and put it in tax havens. We want them gone and to do their stealing off someone else, but you tell us that this will only make things worse. We don't care, because a) it's morally wrong that they steal everything, and b) we have already had eight years of austerity since we gave them 500 billion in 2008, since when we have had politicians telling us it is going to hurt practically every time they open their mouths. Now we still have to listen to snark telling us we're stupid for wanting to eject the parasitic banks, along with one of Britain's most hated companies run by a megalomaniac psycho-capitalist, Ryanair. We'll take our chances, thanks."
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:34 PM on June 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Word on Radio 4 this morning is that Angela Eagle will be the unity candidate in the Labour Civil War
Given that her constituency party officially supports Corbyn, it won't be too much of a problem for her to also ignore the result of the referendum.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:43 PM on June 28, 2016
Given that her constituency party officially supports Corbyn, it won't be too much of a problem for her to also ignore the result of the referendum.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:43 PM on June 28, 2016
we gave them 500 billion in 2008
And gave them 250 billion after the referendum, using the same unusual definition of "gave".
(or do folks in England always give back gifts after a while, or sign over enough assets to cover the gift's value before accepting them? that's a bit odd...)
posted by effbot at 11:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
And gave them 250 billion after the referendum, using the same unusual definition of "gave".
(or do folks in England always give back gifts after a while, or sign over enough assets to cover the gift's value before accepting them? that's a bit odd...)
posted by effbot at 11:54 PM on June 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a superb essay outlining the many mistakes made in the process of organising this referendum: Brexit Was A Con.
Interesting indeed. The author contrasts the lengthy and meticulous preparation of a 600 page white paper in the run up to the 2014 Scottish Indy-ref - with the lack of anything remotely similar prepared by either the in or the out campaigns (beyond pamphlets and soundbites sprayed onto busses) . One upshot of this is that Scotland still has this plan that they could put into action following an IndyRef2. It does need some dusting off first: the motion passed by the Scottish Parliament yesterday, will help update the section dealing with the EU - and the SNP would not choose to re-do the same mistake of proposing a currency plan that is, in any way, contingent on Westminster's consent.
I remain utterly amazed the the combined scrutiny of parliament, industry, business and the global media failed to uncover the missing plans - and to thus point out that the referendum was taking place too early.
posted by rongorongo at 11:57 PM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
Interesting indeed. The author contrasts the lengthy and meticulous preparation of a 600 page white paper in the run up to the 2014 Scottish Indy-ref - with the lack of anything remotely similar prepared by either the in or the out campaigns (beyond pamphlets and soundbites sprayed onto busses) . One upshot of this is that Scotland still has this plan that they could put into action following an IndyRef2. It does need some dusting off first: the motion passed by the Scottish Parliament yesterday, will help update the section dealing with the EU - and the SNP would not choose to re-do the same mistake of proposing a currency plan that is, in any way, contingent on Westminster's consent.
I remain utterly amazed the the combined scrutiny of parliament, industry, business and the global media failed to uncover the missing plans - and to thus point out that the referendum was taking place too early.
posted by rongorongo at 11:57 PM on June 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
Too big to fail!
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:03 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:03 AM on June 29, 2016
Coda Tronca—sorry, I live in the U.S. and am learning about all of this retrospectively, with much of my understanding coming from Deutsche Welle; there were definitely no Leave-voters who heard that from me before the referendum. If the London financial industry is actually the valueless beans, or worse is entirely parasitic, then I happily reverse my Jack and the Beanstalk analogy and you guys are the ones who got the cow, and Continental financial centers or wherever else it goes got the beans.
posted by XMLicious at 12:04 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by XMLicious at 12:04 AM on June 29, 2016
Coda Tronca: "Too big to fail!"
I would say 64 million people qualifies a country as "too big to fail," yes.
posted by Bugbread at 12:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would say 64 million people qualifies a country as "too big to fail," yes.
posted by Bugbread at 12:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
So there we have it - the same argument used to defend the bailouts now being used to defend the suspension of democracy. At least there are some mainstream pundits like Larry Elliott who still note that:
"There are those who argue that globalisation is now like the weather, something we can moan about but not alter. This is a false comparison. The global market economy was created by a set of political decisions in the past and it can be shaped by political decisions taken in the future."
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:23 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
"There are those who argue that globalisation is now like the weather, something we can moan about but not alter. This is a false comparison. The global market economy was created by a set of political decisions in the past and it can be shaped by political decisions taken in the future."
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:23 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I would say 64 million people qualifies a country as "too big to fail," yes.
Although one may have gotten that impression from that game against Iceland, I would say that the UK is far from failing, even if they complete the Brexit. They are not part of the Euro, so they can devalue their currency to their heart's delight.
Foreign-made goods (so pretty much everything) will be more expensive as will be overseas vacations and many people in the financial industry might be in for a career change, but that's still a far cry from "failing". Besides, taking back those jobs and relying more on nationally made products is one of the main points of the Brexit anyway, isn't it?
posted by sour cream at 12:27 AM on June 29, 2016
Although one may have gotten that impression from that game against Iceland, I would say that the UK is far from failing, even if they complete the Brexit. They are not part of the Euro, so they can devalue their currency to their heart's delight.
Foreign-made goods (so pretty much everything) will be more expensive as will be overseas vacations and many people in the financial industry might be in for a career change, but that's still a far cry from "failing". Besides, taking back those jobs and relying more on nationally made products is one of the main points of the Brexit anyway, isn't it?
posted by sour cream at 12:27 AM on June 29, 2016
Has anyone got a cite for this referendum even having a 50% threshold? I couldn't find it stated explicitly in the referendum Act.
posted by grahamparks at 12:28 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by grahamparks at 12:28 AM on June 29, 2016
Larry Elliott has always been the Guardian's Dr Doom. He's the one who predicted all sorts of terrible things would happen and things would never, ever get better right through the financial crisis.
For many Leave voters, they never did.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
For many Leave voters, they never did.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Might be worth noting the "Leave" bullet points:
Before the referendum, Cameron had no doubt that he could, if the vote was "Leave", pull the trigger on Article 50 as soon as the votes were tallied. He certainly could have. But, he having passed the decision to the next PM, is that now enough? Surely it should now be put to Parliament first? In a nonpartisan way, of course - a conscience vote - so that the fate of the government does not hang on the decision. This vote will certainly fail and the government's hands will be tied. Thwarted by the Perfidious Remainers! No, we can't call a snap election, because the government has not actually lost a confidence vote. More finger pointing and hand wringing. Debates. Legal opinions. Opinion polls showing that if the vote was held today, it would fail. Talking heads sadly shaking their heads and pointing to the fact that it's been a year and <major international incident> means the referendum result has been overtaken by events.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
A Vote to Leave takes back controlHow this goes down ...
We stop handing over £350 million a week to Brussels
We take back control of our borders and can kick out violent criminals
We take back the power to kick out the people who make our laws
We decide what we spend our own money on
We free our businesses from damaging EU laws and regulations
We take back the power to make our own trade deals
We have better relations with our European friends
We regain our influence in the wider world and become a truly global nation once again
Before the referendum, Cameron had no doubt that he could, if the vote was "Leave", pull the trigger on Article 50 as soon as the votes were tallied. He certainly could have. But, he having passed the decision to the next PM, is that now enough? Surely it should now be put to Parliament first? In a nonpartisan way, of course - a conscience vote - so that the fate of the government does not hang on the decision. This vote will certainly fail and the government's hands will be tied. Thwarted by the Perfidious Remainers! No, we can't call a snap election, because the government has not actually lost a confidence vote. More finger pointing and hand wringing. Debates. Legal opinions. Opinion polls showing that if the vote was held today, it would fail. Talking heads sadly shaking their heads and pointing to the fact that it's been a year and <major international incident> means the referendum result has been overtaken by events.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
For many Leave voters, they never did.
The point was that the things never happened. Do you ever read the comments you reply to?
posted by effbot at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
The point was that the things never happened. Do you ever read the comments you reply to?
posted by effbot at 12:31 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
predicted all sorts of terrible things would happen and things would never, ever get better right through the financial crisis.
Of course I read it - the second phrase 'and things would never, ever get better' reads to me like it refers to the aftermath of the bad things that did happen in 2008, rather than follows on from things that turned out not to happen in the first place. But I could be wrong!
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Of course I read it - the second phrase 'and things would never, ever get better' reads to me like it refers to the aftermath of the bad things that did happen in 2008, rather than follows on from things that turned out not to happen in the first place. But I could be wrong!
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surely it should now be put to Parliament first? In a nonpartisan way, of course - a conscience vote - so that the fate of the government does not hang on the decision.
Surely it shouldn't.
Letting the people decide was the whole point, wasn't it? What with "take back control", etc.
posted by sour cream at 12:38 AM on June 29, 2016
Surely it shouldn't.
Letting the people decide was the whole point, wasn't it? What with "take back control", etc.
posted by sour cream at 12:38 AM on June 29, 2016
Letting the people decide was the whole point, wasn't it?
Well, they can't help it if it's now mid-2017 and they have been prevented from implementing the Brexit by events beyond their control, can they? </rolleyes>
posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:44 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, they can't help it if it's now mid-2017 and they have been prevented from implementing the Brexit by events beyond their control, can they? </rolleyes>
posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:44 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does it really say that?
Copy-paste from page 15 of the PDF.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:54 AM on June 29, 2016
Copy-paste from page 15 of the PDF.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 12:54 AM on June 29, 2016
It's not a typo...? It refers to accountability.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:58 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:58 AM on June 29, 2016
>: ...they didn't even have a proofreader.
The phrase "to kick out the people who make our laws" means that the pro-Leave campaign objects to the "faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" (to quote their rhetoric) and that a Leave vote means that all of the UK's lawmaking apparatus comes under the electoral control of the people*.
House of Lords and Civil Service excepted, of course.
posted by fireoyster at 1:03 AM on June 29, 2016
The phrase "to kick out the people who make our laws" means that the pro-Leave campaign objects to the "faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" (to quote their rhetoric) and that a Leave vote means that all of the UK's lawmaking apparatus comes under the electoral control of the people*.
House of Lords and Civil Service excepted, of course.
posted by fireoyster at 1:03 AM on June 29, 2016
It's a reference to the Brussels bureaucrats who "make our laws". You know, the ones who draft them, and then make the European Parliament pass them, and then make Westminster enact them in the UK, by bribing them with Stella Artois and mussels or something.
posted by rory at 1:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by rory at 1:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
David Allen Green (otherwise known as the legal blogger Jack Of Kent) suspects that the establishment is going to kick Brexit into the long grass:
posted by pharm at 1:06 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
- By Article 50 notification not being sent immediately, it increasingly looks like Leave won a Referendum battle but will lose the Brexit war
- Juncker is blustering and has no force. Watch Tusk.
- Royal Commission examining all options for Brexit before eventually reporting would be perfectly British thing to do
- Chaired by Sir John Chilcot, of course, who will be looking for an exciting new project this summer.
- The "Establishment" can be wrong-footed in a crisis; the mistake is to believe that it remains wrong-footed for very long.
- The only way to drive fundamental change in the UK is by command of cabinet and parliament, not by referendums. See: Attlee, Thatcher.
- ...
- (Btw, am generally neutral on Brexit - my tweets are not intended to be pro-Remain. Just explaining how Leave is now being frustrated.)
- (Am instinctively a Eurosceptic and indeed was once a research assistant to Bill Cash MP, alongside @DanielJHannan!)
- (I just do not underestimate the will of Remain to prevail. The referendum is a setback for them, but actual Brexit is still to play for.)
I think the strategy of kicking something obnoxious into the long grass works best if the world was not watching when you produced it.
posted by rongorongo at 1:14 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 1:14 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's a reference to the Brussels bureaucrats who "make our laws".
Why are they "faceless"?
I thought the EU "laws" (or directives or whatever) are drawn up by the Commission. There's no secret on who's in the EU Commission. The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.
Here are their faces. Scroll down for responsibilities and bios.
posted by sour cream at 1:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Why are they "faceless"?
I thought the EU "laws" (or directives or whatever) are drawn up by the Commission. There's no secret on who's in the EU Commission. The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.
Here are their faces. Scroll down for responsibilities and bios.
posted by sour cream at 1:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Muddling through is the British Way! Or something. If the next Tory leader goes straight for Article 50 then you’re right. Otherwise, David probably has it.
This would all be amazing political theatre if it didn’t matter so much to me personally :(
Meanwhile, Janen Ganesh in the FT: “...on the morning after the referendum, (Boris and Gove) wore the haunted look of jokers at an auction whose playfully exorbitant bid for a vase had just been accepted with a chilling smash of the gavel. They must now govern as well as they campaigned.”
posted by pharm at 1:22 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This would all be amazing political theatre if it didn’t matter so much to me personally :(
Meanwhile, Janen Ganesh in the FT: “...on the morning after the referendum, (Boris and Gove) wore the haunted look of jokers at an auction whose playfully exorbitant bid for a vase had just been accepted with a chilling smash of the gavel. They must now govern as well as they campaigned.”
posted by pharm at 1:22 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.
That'd be many readers of The Sun and also the Daily Mail, right?
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
That'd be many readers of The Sun and also the Daily Mail, right?
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why are they "faceless"?
"We've never seen them on telly or in the papers" = "faceless". If your papers steadfastly refuse to cover the EU in any serious way, you'll never see their faces there, and it becomes self-fulfilling.
They're faceless in the same way that the latest Tory emerging as a leadership candidate would be to the entire rest of the world.
posted by rory at 1:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
"We've never seen them on telly or in the papers" = "faceless". If your papers steadfastly refuse to cover the EU in any serious way, you'll never see their faces there, and it becomes self-fulfilling.
They're faceless in the same way that the latest Tory emerging as a leadership candidate would be to the entire rest of the world.
posted by rory at 1:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
That'd be many readers of The Sun and also the Daily Mail, right?
From a quick search, most references to the commission on the mail's site seem to be in the form of a boring Reuters telegram, but I found at least one article that has a photo of the British guy: MEPs lash Cameron's bumbling new man in Brussels as 'charming' but useless, and it even mentions that he's chosen by the British PM and approved by the EU parliament.
posted by effbot at 1:46 AM on June 29, 2016
From a quick search, most references to the commission on the mail's site seem to be in the form of a boring Reuters telegram, but I found at least one article that has a photo of the British guy: MEPs lash Cameron's bumbling new man in Brussels as 'charming' but useless, and it even mentions that he's chosen by the British PM and approved by the EU parliament.
posted by effbot at 1:46 AM on June 29, 2016
The SNP may have shadow ministers in every department, but since their party can't have many more MPs than it already has (because it only stands in Scotland) it will never have a majority and will never assume office.
You don't need a majority to assume office; you can have a minority government as part of a coalition or whatever. It's unlikely that an SNP in that situation could be PM, but it's certainly not impossible.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:53 AM on June 29, 2016
You don't need a majority to assume office; you can have a minority government as part of a coalition or whatever. It's unlikely that an SNP in that situation could be PM, but it's certainly not impossible.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:53 AM on June 29, 2016
Even if it could delay triggering Article 50 indefinitely, it's hardly likely to have any further power in EU deliberations.
Given the UK's rightward pull in general, and propensity to finale exceptions to allow it to mistreat immigrants, I see this as a feature, not a bug.
posted by Dysk at 1:54 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Given the UK's rightward pull in general, and propensity to finale exceptions to allow it to mistreat immigrants, I see this as a feature, not a bug.
posted by Dysk at 1:54 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The commissioners are only faceless to those who have absolutely no interest in the inner workings of the EU and/or are too lazy to do a one-minute Google search.
I certainly know a lot more about Sion Simon, my hard working representative in the European Parliament who I directly voted for in an election based on proportional representation than I do any of my nominal representatives in the House of Lords...
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:55 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I certainly know a lot more about Sion Simon, my hard working representative in the European Parliament who I directly voted for in an election based on proportional representation than I do any of my nominal representatives in the House of Lords...
posted by brilliantmistake at 1:55 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Taibbi: My admittedly primitive understanding of democracy is that we're supposed to move toward it, not away from it, in a moment of crisis.
And this is an example of my country's proud march towards an ever more democratic future?
The UK has a system of parliamentary democracy. (And yes I am sure Matt Taibbi actually knows this, but I need to rant at someone and Imaginary Matt Taibbi in my head will just have to do for now.) We elect MPs, who form a Parliament, who propose, debate, and vote on major issues that affect us as a country. There's nothing to say that referendums can't play some kind of part in that, but they haven't played a major one up to this point and we are, very and increasingly obviously, uncertain on how to fit them into the system we have at the moment.
Should we require a higher bar than "above 50% of turnout" to pass something via referendum? We have in the past. We didn't this time. So the vote was "leave", but not enough that anyone can argue an overwhelming majority supported it. Is this going to work out okay? Cause huge fractures and divisions in the electorate? We don't know.
How does a vote like this work with devolution? We are not a single country with a single government; Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have their own governments and their own parliaments/assemblies, their own rights to decide their own laws, their own policies, and their own directions for their own people, within limits which vary per devolved government. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay, by a higher margin than the UK as a whole voted to leave. What's the plan for resolving that democratically? How do we deal with the inevitable tensions it's causing? (And that's not even mentioning the potential for the collapse of peace in Northern Ireland, which I can't even think about right now because I'll just start crying.) We don't know.
Who, in the case of a referendum on a major change to the country, is responsible for setting out a plan on what that change should look like and how it should be implemented? We don't know - and so we don't even seem to have one.
If we need to make legislative decisions on this, how do we reconcile that with the process of lawmaking? Not even dealing with the Lords - what about the Commons? If MP Joe Bloggs is asked to vote on some specific enacting legislation to withdraw us from the European Union. Joe Bloggs's party supported Remain; Joe Bloggs's constituency overwhelmingly voted Remain; Joe Bloggs is now getting a lot of letters from his constituents saying "please, don't pass that, this is a total mess and the result is going to be awful for us here." And yet, Joe Bloggs is as aware of the rest of us that the country as a whole voted Leave. So what's Joe Bloggs's democratic duty as an MP there? I hope Joe Bloggs knows, because I don't.
Right now, the Prime Minister has announced he will step down. We don't know who the next one will be - we don't even know who's standing, or what platforms they're standing on. And the Opposition, who we rely on to pay particular detailed scrutiny to the government's proposals and policies? They're in total turmoil. Who's the opposition now? The SNP? How's that going to work? I suppose we're going to find out, but right now... we don't know.
And now what? How do we respect the will of the people in this situation? It is increasingly clear that whatever Brexit deal is struck, a large section of the people who voted Leave won't get what they think they were voting for. What are they going to do? How are they going to feel? Is that really going to help people feel more included in the political process, rather than yet more distanced and disenfranchised and dismissed? We need to get people more involved and included in the system that governs them. We desperately need, as a democratic country, for people's voices to matter and for people to feel heard. How do we get there from here?
Democracy is a system and a process and an ideal. It's not just a one-off event. We are doing a disservice to it and to our whole country if we reduce it to "just rock up every few years and put an X on a piece of paper."
posted by Catseye at 2:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
And this is an example of my country's proud march towards an ever more democratic future?
The UK has a system of parliamentary democracy. (And yes I am sure Matt Taibbi actually knows this, but I need to rant at someone and Imaginary Matt Taibbi in my head will just have to do for now.) We elect MPs, who form a Parliament, who propose, debate, and vote on major issues that affect us as a country. There's nothing to say that referendums can't play some kind of part in that, but they haven't played a major one up to this point and we are, very and increasingly obviously, uncertain on how to fit them into the system we have at the moment.
Should we require a higher bar than "above 50% of turnout" to pass something via referendum? We have in the past. We didn't this time. So the vote was "leave", but not enough that anyone can argue an overwhelming majority supported it. Is this going to work out okay? Cause huge fractures and divisions in the electorate? We don't know.
How does a vote like this work with devolution? We are not a single country with a single government; Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have their own governments and their own parliaments/assemblies, their own rights to decide their own laws, their own policies, and their own directions for their own people, within limits which vary per devolved government. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to stay, by a higher margin than the UK as a whole voted to leave. What's the plan for resolving that democratically? How do we deal with the inevitable tensions it's causing? (And that's not even mentioning the potential for the collapse of peace in Northern Ireland, which I can't even think about right now because I'll just start crying.) We don't know.
Who, in the case of a referendum on a major change to the country, is responsible for setting out a plan on what that change should look like and how it should be implemented? We don't know - and so we don't even seem to have one.
If we need to make legislative decisions on this, how do we reconcile that with the process of lawmaking? Not even dealing with the Lords - what about the Commons? If MP Joe Bloggs is asked to vote on some specific enacting legislation to withdraw us from the European Union. Joe Bloggs's party supported Remain; Joe Bloggs's constituency overwhelmingly voted Remain; Joe Bloggs is now getting a lot of letters from his constituents saying "please, don't pass that, this is a total mess and the result is going to be awful for us here." And yet, Joe Bloggs is as aware of the rest of us that the country as a whole voted Leave. So what's Joe Bloggs's democratic duty as an MP there? I hope Joe Bloggs knows, because I don't.
Right now, the Prime Minister has announced he will step down. We don't know who the next one will be - we don't even know who's standing, or what platforms they're standing on. And the Opposition, who we rely on to pay particular detailed scrutiny to the government's proposals and policies? They're in total turmoil. Who's the opposition now? The SNP? How's that going to work? I suppose we're going to find out, but right now... we don't know.
And now what? How do we respect the will of the people in this situation? It is increasingly clear that whatever Brexit deal is struck, a large section of the people who voted Leave won't get what they think they were voting for. What are they going to do? How are they going to feel? Is that really going to help people feel more included in the political process, rather than yet more distanced and disenfranchised and dismissed? We need to get people more involved and included in the system that governs them. We desperately need, as a democratic country, for people's voices to matter and for people to feel heard. How do we get there from here?
Democracy is a system and a process and an ideal. It's not just a one-off event. We are doing a disservice to it and to our whole country if we reduce it to "just rock up every few years and put an X on a piece of paper."
posted by Catseye at 2:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
On the subject of the newspapers, while filling up with petrol this morning (which cost a little more than last week) I was confronted with this sorry display on the news-stand: the result of the vote was apparently the EU’s fault (not that of the people who voted for it or the politicians who campaigned for it); ‘BoJo storms ahead in race for leadership’ (presumably he has Mr. Murdoch’s backing already); ‘Le Pen looked at Farage and said “Look at how beautiful history is…”’ (‘…’ indeed!); and, on the very opposite of a slow news day, the Daily Mail leads with a story about statins.
posted by misteraitch at 2:07 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by misteraitch at 2:07 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Right now, the Prime Minister has announced he will step down. We don't know who the next one will be - we don't even know who's standing, or what platforms they're standing on.
We know that Boris is standing, on UKIP's platform. And on the opposition side, Corbyn, on SWP's platform :-)
posted by effbot at 2:11 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
We know that Boris is standing, on UKIP's platform. And on the opposition side, Corbyn, on SWP's platform :-)
posted by effbot at 2:11 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was surprised to learn the other day that Boris Johnson was born in New York City. Apparently that is not an obstacle to eligibility.
And speaking of lying liars with funny hair, do you know who else was born in New York City?
posted by sour cream at 2:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
And speaking of lying liars with funny hair, do you know who else was born in New York City?
posted by sour cream at 2:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was surprised to learn the other day that Boris Johnson was born in New York City. Apparently that is not an obstacle to eligibility.
Coming over here, stealing our top jobs, typical.
posted by brilliantmistake at 2:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
Coming over here, stealing our top jobs, typical.
posted by brilliantmistake at 2:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
sour_cream, they should call the exterminators, there's obviously a nest somewhere.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Four working days into life in Thethickofitstan, I can't shake off the fear that all parties need to proceed extremely cautiously or risk Britain becoming a quasi-fascist state; not the full Third Reich, perhaps, but potentially Pinochet's Chile. The fact that polls are suggesting that Regrexit is a statistical blip suggests that a large population in England and Wales would be perfectly happy if a strongman (or woman) emerged from the political chaos to enact Brexit in Full come hell or high water. And not any soft Brexit that keeps freedom of movement intact: something that closes the borders and sets the timer ticking on when EU citizens who are already here must leave.
When I moved to Britain many people here were still, to an unhealthy degree, clinging to the stereotypes of WW2, and 15 years later you still hear jokes about Germans and their authoritarian tendencies. Well, that's another thing that Brexit should put to bed, because nobody in Britain should now wonder how a civilised people could inadvertently hand power to racists and demagogues. I fear (and I hope it's only a fear, and nothing more) we're watching it in action.
I don't mean that the strongman/woman is necessarily one of the current MPs. They can't put off a General Election forever.
posted by rory at 2:47 AM on June 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
When I moved to Britain many people here were still, to an unhealthy degree, clinging to the stereotypes of WW2, and 15 years later you still hear jokes about Germans and their authoritarian tendencies. Well, that's another thing that Brexit should put to bed, because nobody in Britain should now wonder how a civilised people could inadvertently hand power to racists and demagogues. I fear (and I hope it's only a fear, and nothing more) we're watching it in action.
I don't mean that the strongman/woman is necessarily one of the current MPs. They can't put off a General Election forever.
posted by rory at 2:47 AM on June 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
I think it would be worthwhile for anyone with an interest in the Labour party's history and future to be very familiar with the actions of Portland Communications.
There's probably a lot of crazy out there with opinions on Portland, sure, but there is also a lot of provable evidence of very underhanded shenanigans going on. So before you judge Corbyn on what you see in the media, just think about how or why those stories got there.
None of this is to say anything about his actual competencies of course, but judge on the whole story, or as much of the whole story that you can discover.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's probably a lot of crazy out there with opinions on Portland, sure, but there is also a lot of provable evidence of very underhanded shenanigans going on. So before you judge Corbyn on what you see in the media, just think about how or why those stories got there.
None of this is to say anything about his actual competencies of course, but judge on the whole story, or as much of the whole story that you can discover.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also:
The SNP argues that it has support of more opposition MPs than Labour, so should be made the official Opposition.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:51 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The SNP argues that it has support of more opposition MPs than Labour, so should be made the official Opposition.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:51 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it would be worthwhile for anyone with an interest in the Labour party's history and future to be very familiar with the actions of Portland Communications.
More here
There's been definite orchestration of things like the timings of shadow cabinet resignations. I don't think the Corbyn side does itself any favours by criticising the Blairites for actually having an effective media strategy though.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
More here
There's been definite orchestration of things like the timings of shadow cabinet resignations. I don't think the Corbyn side does itself any favours by criticising the Blairites for actually having an effective media strategy though.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Portland Communications? More detailed account here
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:06 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:06 AM on June 29, 2016
Leader of the Opposition generally goes to the parliamentary leader of the party, not allied with the government, that can muster the most members. With Labour split, that looks like the SNP, at least until the Labour rump finds someone they can unite behind. The irony lightens the mood a little.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 3:07 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Autumn Leaf at 3:07 AM on June 29, 2016
FTSE 100 just hit 6,299, having closed before Brexit at 6,334.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:07 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:07 AM on June 29, 2016
I'm a bit dubious about the Canary as a reputable source. So I'd take some of their analysis with a pinch of salt.
But it's no secret that Progress (Blair's ginger group) were heavily invested in PR and spin.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:13 AM on June 29, 2016
But it's no secret that Progress (Blair's ginger group) were heavily invested in PR and spin.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:13 AM on June 29, 2016
Yes well, given that a big chunk of the FTSE has foreign earnings & the £ has slumped by about 10% that really isn’t that great a performance is it?
Meanwhile, in FTSE250 land, which has more UK-only companies, things aren’t looking so rosy, even in £ denominated terms.
posted by pharm at 3:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, in FTSE250 land, which has more UK-only companies, things aren’t looking so rosy, even in £ denominated terms.
posted by pharm at 3:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Getting very salty around here.
posted by Grangousier at 3:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
FTSE 100 just hit 6,299, having closed before Brexit at 6,334.
That's great! I mean I have no shares in anything and don't know how the markets will react when we actually Brexit and also I don't know what will happen to my mortgage payments if interest rates go up as even with two jobs I struggle as it is oh and one of my jobs' Board of Trustees is hoping that Brexit means the predicted minimum wage increases by 2020 won't happen and an anti-racism organisation I worked for for years that did brilliant work will now probably lose all EU funding and probably shut down...but still, the FTSE's only just a little bit down today huzzah!
posted by billiebee at 3:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
That's great! I mean I have no shares in anything and don't know how the markets will react when we actually Brexit and also I don't know what will happen to my mortgage payments if interest rates go up as even with two jobs I struggle as it is oh and one of my jobs' Board of Trustees is hoping that Brexit means the predicted minimum wage increases by 2020 won't happen and an anti-racism organisation I worked for for years that did brilliant work will now probably lose all EU funding and probably shut down...but still, the FTSE's only just a little bit down today huzzah!
posted by billiebee at 3:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [21 favorites]
Mod note: Comment deleted. Coda Tronca, please give this thread a breather. You have more comments than anyone and seem to be trolling for a fight now.
posted by taz (staff) at 3:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 3:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
infini. I think that’s just an error - they’ve switched the CHF and £ rates.
posted by pharm at 3:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pharm at 3:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Scottish Government's council on Europe has now been assembled. Quick work.
posted by rongorongo at 3:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 3:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This BBC article is talking about British tourism in general, not just more British people staying at home.
After Brexit will more of us take our holidays in the UK?
From one spokesman:
Would any continental visitor actually want to set foot in a B+B or pub whose owner is ranting against EU migrants? Or one who is polite to their faces but has UKIP stickers all over the place?
I imagine that VisitScotland is already gearing up a supplementary campaign to emphasize how much the Scots love the EU.
posted by Azara at 3:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
After Brexit will more of us take our holidays in the UK?
From one spokesman:
And his view that with sterling now worth less, UK tourism could be one of the clear winners from Brexit is echoed by others in the industry.The article goes on to say that nine million holidaymakers came to the UK from the EU last year. But tourism is an industry that is strongly affected by customers' perceptions, and I worry that all that anti-foreigner sentiment that's been airing on news clips and viral videos (and Nigel Farage's gloating in the European Parliament) will be seen as the new face of England in the rest of the EU. I'm one of those 9 million visitors myself, but I'd think twice about going back if I thought my accent would expose me to all the xenophobes.
Would any continental visitor actually want to set foot in a B+B or pub whose owner is ranting against EU migrants? Or one who is polite to their faces but has UKIP stickers all over the place?
I imagine that VisitScotland is already gearing up a supplementary campaign to emphasize how much the Scots love the EU.
posted by Azara at 3:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
> "The author contrasts the lengthy and meticulous preparation of a 600 page white paper in the run up to the 2014 Scottish Indy-ref with the lack of anything remotely similar prepared by either the in or the out campaigns ..."
God, yes. And at the time, much of my nervousness about the possibility of IndyRef1 winning was that I didn't think it had been sufficiently planned out. But in comparison to Leave, their plan looks like friggin' Keyser Söze level forethought.
posted by kyrademon at 3:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
God, yes. And at the time, much of my nervousness about the possibility of IndyRef1 winning was that I didn't think it had been sufficiently planned out. But in comparison to Leave, their plan looks like friggin' Keyser Söze level forethought.
posted by kyrademon at 3:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'm one of those 9 million visitors myself, but I'd think twice about going back if I thought my accent would expose me to all the xenophobes.
Yes. Its going to rather complicated over the next couple of years - I usually try to keep a valid long term UK visa but now I don't know how all of this will impact, both legally (EU residency) and personally (foreigner with accent)
posted by infini at 3:40 AM on June 29, 2016
Yes. Its going to rather complicated over the next couple of years - I usually try to keep a valid long term UK visa but now I don't know how all of this will impact, both legally (EU residency) and personally (foreigner with accent)
posted by infini at 3:40 AM on June 29, 2016
It's very interesting seeing the Scottish Parliament seizing control of its foreign policy, one of the reserved powers that have not been devolved, while politics is swirling into a black hole at Westminster.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:56 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:56 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
France cynicallly intends to offer Britain an EEA- that excludes passporting, but givs them a migration cap, and single market access.— Ben Judah (@b_judah) June 29, 2016Losing a massive chunk of the tax base in order to give Leavers what they want is probably not the kind of outcome Boris et al had in mind, but it’s what we might end up with.
posted by pharm at 3:59 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
WRT Scottish tourism campaigns, someone should have cstross get on this and find some people who haven't even heard how the U.K. Voted against outsiders: he needs to get off-worlders to visit!!
posted by wenestvedt at 4:08 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by wenestvedt at 4:08 AM on June 29, 2016
This is an interesting comment on Corbyn's position, repeated here since it seems that Guardian comments section is being more insightful than the opinion section these days.
"The constant mistake the media make is that they treat Corbyn as an individual. A personality (yes yes, no personality or charisma, hahaha). If you view everything he'd doing through a different lens, perhaps it would all make sense and you could actually report on this mess so people would leave with greater knowledge of the situation.
The 7 out of 10 remark perfectly defines Corbyn's mindset. All he's ever wanted to be is a mouthpiece for other people. He ran for the leadership, so that the left had a voice in the contest. Nothing ambitious, just that. When he won he said PMQs would be changed so the people could speak directly to the PM, and hey, he actually did that. He's stuck to his mandate, because, so far, the membership he's representing hasn't told him otherwise. He continues to say he's anti-trident because the members he represents are mostly against it. When it came to the election, he bloody nailed it. He tried to represent the whole labour, to express their conflict and to try and explain. He said he was 7 out of 10 for Remain....Labour? they voted 67% for remain...or about 6.7 out of 10....
So here we are. He can't resign because everyone he's trying to represent hasn't told him to. Attacks on him individually are seen as attacks on everyone who voted for him. The No Confidence vote is now viewed (because the undermining began within the hour - I'm looking at you Jamie Reed) as a No Confidence vote for the majority of the membership. I reckon if the Membership voted him out he'd just smile, thank them for being allowed to represent them, then toddle off to his allotment for the afternoon, 'appy as Larry.
So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative. Has always been. And until the Media start phrasing the argument this way, we're going to be stuck with this divisive tone of us vs them vs us...."
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:52 AM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
"The constant mistake the media make is that they treat Corbyn as an individual. A personality (yes yes, no personality or charisma, hahaha). If you view everything he'd doing through a different lens, perhaps it would all make sense and you could actually report on this mess so people would leave with greater knowledge of the situation.
The 7 out of 10 remark perfectly defines Corbyn's mindset. All he's ever wanted to be is a mouthpiece for other people. He ran for the leadership, so that the left had a voice in the contest. Nothing ambitious, just that. When he won he said PMQs would be changed so the people could speak directly to the PM, and hey, he actually did that. He's stuck to his mandate, because, so far, the membership he's representing hasn't told him otherwise. He continues to say he's anti-trident because the members he represents are mostly against it. When it came to the election, he bloody nailed it. He tried to represent the whole labour, to express their conflict and to try and explain. He said he was 7 out of 10 for Remain....Labour? they voted 67% for remain...or about 6.7 out of 10....
So here we are. He can't resign because everyone he's trying to represent hasn't told him to. Attacks on him individually are seen as attacks on everyone who voted for him. The No Confidence vote is now viewed (because the undermining began within the hour - I'm looking at you Jamie Reed) as a No Confidence vote for the majority of the membership. I reckon if the Membership voted him out he'd just smile, thank them for being allowed to represent them, then toddle off to his allotment for the afternoon, 'appy as Larry.
So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative. Has always been. And until the Media start phrasing the argument this way, we're going to be stuck with this divisive tone of us vs them vs us...."
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:52 AM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
So, a blog post that turned up on my feed pointed me towards two Owen Jones Medium posts: a new one about the crises, and one from last year about what it was necessary for the Corbyn leadership to do. Heartbreaking. Read that last post - this is why the people who are saying he's failed are saying it. He's done none of that, and no substantive alternative to any of it.
posted by Grangousier at 5:14 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 5:14 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
But we - by which I mean grass roots party members - already have representatives: Our CLPs. And that's how we decide policy: at conference, not directly from the leadership, which is why I've found Corbyn's attitude and lack of flexibility on a variety of issues (Brexit and Trident just two) somewhat frustrating.
I'm not happy with the PLP either, and I don't feel that many of them consulted their local party members enough before acting. That needs reforming urgently. But at this point JC has long passed the point of no return and he seems to be the only person who can't see it.
posted by A Robot Ninja at 5:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not happy with the PLP either, and I don't feel that many of them consulted their local party members enough before acting. That needs reforming urgently. But at this point JC has long passed the point of no return and he seems to be the only person who can't see it.
posted by A Robot Ninja at 5:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative. Has always been. And until the Media start phrasing the argument this way, we're going to be stuck with this divisive tone of us vs them vs us....
Whenever I've heard Corbyn speak I've liked the bloke, and there are only a few policy areas where I'd disagree with him, which is pretty good as things go, so consider me sympathetic from that side of things. And I can't fault him for being a mirror of the wider party he leads, as you so well elaborate. But he's up against the competing Burkean idea of representation, that a representative "is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament". Parliamentary party leaders, even more so. I can't see any way for him to make it work.
posted by rory at 5:22 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Whenever I've heard Corbyn speak I've liked the bloke, and there are only a few policy areas where I'd disagree with him, which is pretty good as things go, so consider me sympathetic from that side of things. And I can't fault him for being a mirror of the wider party he leads, as you so well elaborate. But he's up against the competing Burkean idea of representation, that a representative "is not member of Bristol, but he is a member of parliament". Parliamentary party leaders, even more so. I can't see any way for him to make it work.
posted by rory at 5:22 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
So no, he isn't a Leader. He's a representative.
Of course, his formal title is "Leader of the Labour Party" so maybe that should have told him that he was expected to do a bit of leading as well.
As for who he's really representing, 122,000 party members and 130,000 supporters voted for him (many of these supporters registered specifically for the election, and the other candidates barely got any votes from them). Corbyn has been very clear in how he's representing this group of people.
On the other hand, 9,347,000 people voted for the party in the 2015 elections, mostly voting for the MPs that are now labelled "vermin", "traitors and cowards", "oligarch and war supporters", "zionist plotters" etc by his online fanbase. Are you sure he knows he's supposed to represent these voters as well? I'm not convinced.
posted by effbot at 5:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Of course, his formal title is "Leader of the Labour Party" so maybe that should have told him that he was expected to do a bit of leading as well.
As for who he's really representing, 122,000 party members and 130,000 supporters voted for him (many of these supporters registered specifically for the election, and the other candidates barely got any votes from them). Corbyn has been very clear in how he's representing this group of people.
On the other hand, 9,347,000 people voted for the party in the 2015 elections, mostly voting for the MPs that are now labelled "vermin", "traitors and cowards", "oligarch and war supporters", "zionist plotters" etc by his online fanbase. Are you sure he knows he's supposed to represent these voters as well? I'm not convinced.
posted by effbot at 5:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, in FTSE250 land, which has more UK-only companies, things aren’t looking so rosy, even in £ denominated terms.
The Economist has some graphs here: Brexit: taking stock.
posted by effbot at 5:37 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Economist has some graphs here: Brexit: taking stock.
posted by effbot at 5:37 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't know enough about internal Labour politics to have any worthwhile thing to say about Corbyn.
However, listening to the accents in PMQ just now it certainly sounds as if the de facto Loyal Opposition is Scottish at the moment....
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
However, listening to the accents in PMQ just now it certainly sounds as if the de facto Loyal Opposition is Scottish at the moment....
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The MPs from Northern Ireland -- it's not the anger that gets me, it's hearing the raw pain at their sudden realization that England did not think of them at all when they voted last week.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:47 AM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:47 AM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Four working days into life in Thethickofitstan
+5 points; would also have accepted "Omnishamblvania."
posted by Catseye at 5:58 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
+5 points; would also have accepted "Omnishamblvania."
posted by Catseye at 5:58 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Pat Glass.
Appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Education on Monday.
Announces she will not stand at next election on Tuesday.
Resigns as Shadow Secretary of State for Education on Wednesday.
Don't read the replies on the last one. No details on why she's gone yet, but full on attacks. Including people calling for her to be deselected for the next election.
posted by MattWPBS at 6:00 AM on June 29, 2016
Appointed Shadow Secretary of State for Education on Monday.
Announces she will not stand at next election on Tuesday.
Resigns as Shadow Secretary of State for Education on Wednesday.
Don't read the replies on the last one. No details on why she's gone yet, but full on attacks. Including people calling for her to be deselected for the next election.
posted by MattWPBS at 6:00 AM on June 29, 2016
Honestly, if I were a Northern Irish unionist, I would be furious. Their entire political identity is built around loyalty to a nation whose other members literally don't give a damn that they exist. It's not that people in England and Wales voted leave, because some unionists also voted leave. It's that they just sort of forgot that NI was there.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Rajoy just came out and said Spain opposes any EU negotiations with Scotland after Brexit.
So say goodbye to that hope...
posted by JPD at 6:02 AM on June 29, 2016
So say goodbye to that hope...
posted by JPD at 6:02 AM on June 29, 2016
Including people calling for her to be deselected for the next election.
Is that despite the fact that she already said she won't be standing before she was appointed to the Shadow Cabinet?
FFS.
posted by Grangousier at 6:04 AM on June 29, 2016
Is that despite the fact that she already said she won't be standing before she was appointed to the Shadow Cabinet?
FFS.
posted by Grangousier at 6:04 AM on June 29, 2016
Forget about Scotland and Northern Ireland. There is no way the Labour Party can dislodge the SNP in Scotland at this point. It's time for Labour to work on strategic alliances, to pry loose the conservative grip on English electorates. But that is the measure of their failure. They are far more invested in internal politics than in the actual crisis laid out in front of them. So fuck'm.
Edited to add: but it's past 11pm here and I have had more to drink than I should. Time to sign off.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 6:05 AM on June 29, 2016
Edited to add: but it's past 11pm here and I have had more to drink than I should. Time to sign off.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 6:05 AM on June 29, 2016
But but but BLIARITE NEO-CON-FASCIST TRAITORS! SPLITTERS!
posted by Grangousier at 6:08 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 6:08 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Their entire political identity is built around loyalty to a nation whose other members literally don't give a damn that they exist.
One of the ironies of life here is that both sides swear loyalty to a country that doesn't give a shit about them.
posted by billiebee at 6:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
One of the ironies of life here is that both sides swear loyalty to a country that doesn't give a shit about them.
posted by billiebee at 6:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
So, a lot of people won't want to vote for the Tories, and definitely won't vote for UKIP. Who do you suppose their votes will go to if not Labour (and at this point I'd say probably not Labour)? I wondered this morning whether it was useful to the LibDems that they had their meltdown over a year ago. Collapse early and beat the rush
posted by Grangousier at 6:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 6:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Nobody thought of anything - or, rather, anyone saying that there were a thousand problems with Brexit and exactly what was the plan there was either ignored or shouted down as 'Project Fear'. People knew full well what the intractable issues over Northern Ireland were, but refused to address them. "We'll have to keep an eye on that", said Farage. And that was that.
The role of the right-wing press in this whole sorry pit of pus can't be overstated. Having demonised Europe for decades (a process led by a journalist called Boris Johnson, who discovered that filing fruity, fallacious stories from Brussels was eagerly accepted), it then happily took those well-fertilized fields and constructed an edifice of populist lies and deception which blamed the effects of austerity on an EU that bore little resemblance to the actual Union. And a very great number of readers clung to that, because it fitted their preconceptions and fulfilled the need to blame demons.
I am not a vindictive man. But long ago, I decided I could not rest until the offices of the Mail, the Express and News International had been razed to the ground, the occupants sold into slavery and their farms ploughed with salt. I now wish to rescind that, and say that slavery is far too good for them and I wish to hire George R R Martin to write the script for their actual demise.
posted by Devonian at 6:11 AM on June 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
The role of the right-wing press in this whole sorry pit of pus can't be overstated. Having demonised Europe for decades (a process led by a journalist called Boris Johnson, who discovered that filing fruity, fallacious stories from Brussels was eagerly accepted), it then happily took those well-fertilized fields and constructed an edifice of populist lies and deception which blamed the effects of austerity on an EU that bore little resemblance to the actual Union. And a very great number of readers clung to that, because it fitted their preconceptions and fulfilled the need to blame demons.
I am not a vindictive man. But long ago, I decided I could not rest until the offices of the Mail, the Express and News International had been razed to the ground, the occupants sold into slavery and their farms ploughed with salt. I now wish to rescind that, and say that slavery is far too good for them and I wish to hire George R R Martin to write the script for their actual demise.
posted by Devonian at 6:11 AM on June 29, 2016 [32 favorites]
Could we restrict the GRRMartining to the Lords and Nobles? Many of the peasentry and bannermen may be redeemable.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rajoy's position is tenuous at best, is it not? By the time Britain gets around to Brexit, anyone could be in charge in Spain.
PP actually added seats in the election this week, but they don't have a majority. But the PSOE refuses to form a government with the Catalan separatists as well - that's why they had to have another election.
If Podemos got control then maybe Scotland's got a chance - but they were the net biggest loser of the election.
posted by JPD at 6:17 AM on June 29, 2016
PP actually added seats in the election this week, but they don't have a majority. But the PSOE refuses to form a government with the Catalan separatists as well - that's why they had to have another election.
If Podemos got control then maybe Scotland's got a chance - but they were the net biggest loser of the election.
posted by JPD at 6:17 AM on June 29, 2016
Ed Miliband now calling on Corbyn to step down. 'I’m not a Blairite. I’ve never been called a Blairite,' the former Brownite whose leadership was sniped at constantly by Blair says, as people start denouncing him as a Blairite.
posted by Mocata at 6:18 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Mocata at 6:18 AM on June 29, 2016
Not really surprised to see Labour organizing circular firing squads now.
Of course on the other side it seems like the Tories and UKIPs are in a desperate race to resemble Chile post Allende.
When does Nick Houghton declare a coup and become Lord Protector? It seems like you guys wouldn't mind another Cromwell right about now...
posted by vuron at 6:19 AM on June 29, 2016
Of course on the other side it seems like the Tories and UKIPs are in a desperate race to resemble Chile post Allende.
When does Nick Houghton declare a coup and become Lord Protector? It seems like you guys wouldn't mind another Cromwell right about now...
posted by vuron at 6:19 AM on June 29, 2016
Oh, right. No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Cameron sort of riffed on Leo Amery quoting Cromwell in PMQs today. So maybe it's not too far off.
posted by Mocata at 6:21 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Mocata at 6:21 AM on June 29, 2016
Honestly, if I were a Northern Irish unionist, I would be furious. Their entire political identity is built around loyalty to a nation whose other members literally don't give a damn that they exist. It's not that people in England and Wales voted leave, because some unionists also voted leave. It's that they just sort of forgot that NI was there.
That was always the goal of the Good Friday Agreement: not peace, but the ability to go back to ignoring Northern Ireland's existence. So long as the mainland campaign is over, nothing else matters.
posted by Emma May Smith at 6:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
That was always the goal of the Good Friday Agreement: not peace, but the ability to go back to ignoring Northern Ireland's existence. So long as the mainland campaign is over, nothing else matters.
posted by Emma May Smith at 6:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...
Sounds like a hammer on a nailhead to me.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 6:23 AM on June 29, 2016
Sounds like a hammer on a nailhead to me.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 6:23 AM on June 29, 2016
I'm sure a suitable figleaf for Spain can be found if the UK (or Scotland) and the EU come to an arrangement. After all the situations of Scotland and Catalonia are hardly similar since Thursday last.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile, Vodafone, Visa and Easyjet are talking about moving their HQs out of the UK, and the German regulator is saying that the planned merger between the London and German stock exchanges can't happen because a major financial institution like that can't be outside the EU.
And called it freedom...
posted by Devonian at 6:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
And called it freedom...
posted by Devonian at 6:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
PMQs Verdict: The ghost of Jeremy Corbyn still haunts Labour's front bench
posted by Grangousier at 6:28 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 6:28 AM on June 29, 2016
Oh, right. No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...
Unidos Podemos has been for an independence referendum, but they relaxed their stance a bit just before election.
And lost a million votes.
posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2016
Unidos Podemos has been for an independence referendum, but they relaxed their stance a bit just before election.
And lost a million votes.
posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2016
So long as the mainland campaign is over, nothing else matters.
Thanks. But worth remembering "over" and "not currently troubling GB" are different, and that conflict here has a habit of making it across the water from time to time.
posted by billiebee at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2016
Thanks. But worth remembering "over" and "not currently troubling GB" are different, and that conflict here has a habit of making it across the water from time to time.
posted by billiebee at 6:30 AM on June 29, 2016
Oh, right. No one in Spain wants to negotiate with Scotland because it would legitimise Catalan and other separatists...
PP didn't win a majority though. And there's talk of a coalition among the Left parties to take control of Spain. If they do so, that will be in Scotland's favour.
posted by vacapinta at 6:31 AM on June 29, 2016
PP didn't win a majority though. And there's talk of a coalition among the Left parties to take control of Spain. If they do so, that will be in Scotland's favour.
posted by vacapinta at 6:31 AM on June 29, 2016
Lots of high-minded rhetoric from the Government side about "British values" and "no place for hate crimes."
Not hearing any acknowledgement that it was their stupid and foolish and shortsighted decision to have a referendum in the first place.
I mean, it sucks that Labour is having some internal difficulties but the last time the Tories had a potential split they ended up making a decision that, odds are, may lead to the breakup of the UK if not Europe. So there's that.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not hearing any acknowledgement that it was their stupid and foolish and shortsighted decision to have a referendum in the first place.
I mean, it sucks that Labour is having some internal difficulties but the last time the Tories had a potential split they ended up making a decision that, odds are, may lead to the breakup of the UK if not Europe. So there's that.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm sure a suitable figleaf for Spain can be found if the UK (or Scotland) and the EU come to an arrangement. After all the situations of Scotland and Catalonia are hardly similar since Thursday last.
What is a suitable figleaf for permitting regional separation?
Also Catalonia is much much much more important to Spain than Scotland is to the UK
PP didn't win a majority though. And there's talk of a coalition among the Left parties to take control of Spain. If they do so, that will be in Scotland's favour.
Not unless the PSOE changes their mind. This most recent election only happened because the PSOE was willing to enter into coalition with Podemos, but not with the Catalan Independence folks.
posted by JPD at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2016
What is a suitable figleaf for permitting regional separation?
Also Catalonia is much much much more important to Spain than Scotland is to the UK
PP didn't win a majority though. And there's talk of a coalition among the Left parties to take control of Spain. If they do so, that will be in Scotland's favour.
Not unless the PSOE changes their mind. This most recent election only happened because the PSOE was willing to enter into coalition with Podemos, but not with the Catalan Independence folks.
posted by JPD at 6:34 AM on June 29, 2016
Meanwhile, Vodafone, Visa and Easyjet are talking about moving their HQs out of the UK,
Vodafone used the EU to avoid billions of tax. They routed the purchase of another company through Luxembourg, taking advantage of laws brought in by Jean-Claude Juncker.
posted by Emma May Smith at 6:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Vodafone used the EU to avoid billions of tax. They routed the purchase of another company through Luxembourg, taking advantage of laws brought in by Jean-Claude Juncker.
posted by Emma May Smith at 6:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ed Miliband now calling on Corbyn to step down. 'I’m not a Blairite. I’ve never been called a Blairite,' the former Brownite whose leadership was sniped at constantly by Blair says, as people start denouncing him as a Blairite.
This all makes a lot more sense when you realise that most people using Blairite in this way use it to mean New Labour. From that perspective, there is little to distinguish Brownites from Blairites.
posted by Dysk at 6:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
This all makes a lot more sense when you realise that most people using Blairite in this way use it to mean New Labour. From that perspective, there is little to distinguish Brownites from Blairites.
posted by Dysk at 6:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Unidos Podemos and PSOE kind of seem screwed when it comes to providing any support to Catalan or Basque separatists.
Support referendums on separation and you lose support of a lot of the Spanish voters but gain support among Basque and Catalan (and I guess Andalusia). However if Catalans or Basques ever get independence your vote share will go way down (kind of like Labour always had to be cautious about Scottish Independence).
Long term I kind of hope that the federalism of the EU will nullify some of the nationalist tendencies in many of the European Nation States so that nationalism becomes more culturally focused (woo it's time for the Euros again!) and less about politics and economics. Yeah football can result in some violence but way way less on average than fights over sovereignty.
posted by vuron at 6:40 AM on June 29, 2016
Support referendums on separation and you lose support of a lot of the Spanish voters but gain support among Basque and Catalan (and I guess Andalusia). However if Catalans or Basques ever get independence your vote share will go way down (kind of like Labour always had to be cautious about Scottish Independence).
Long term I kind of hope that the federalism of the EU will nullify some of the nationalist tendencies in many of the European Nation States so that nationalism becomes more culturally focused (woo it's time for the Euros again!) and less about politics and economics. Yeah football can result in some violence but way way less on average than fights over sovereignty.
posted by vuron at 6:40 AM on June 29, 2016
Vodafone used the EU to avoid billions of tax. They routed the purchase of another company through Luxembourg, taking advantage of laws brought in by Jean-Claude Juncker.
I've already linked this but Vodafone was enabled by the UK.
"Vodafone says its US stake is owned by a holding company based in the Netherlands, and so will not be liable for tax in Britain. It will pay £3.2bn in tax in the United States.
Even if the US shareholding were held in the UK, the firm would not be liable to tax on its gains under rules on shares sell-offs introduced by the then Chancellor Gordon Brown in 2002 [...] The Treasury believes the 2002 change boosts Britain’s competitiveness and encourages multinationals to be based in the UK."
You don't need the EU to make things sweet for multinational corporations and if that's one of the reasons people voted for Leave they're in for a rude awakening.
posted by billiebee at 6:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
I've already linked this but Vodafone was enabled by the UK.
"Vodafone says its US stake is owned by a holding company based in the Netherlands, and so will not be liable for tax in Britain. It will pay £3.2bn in tax in the United States.
Even if the US shareholding were held in the UK, the firm would not be liable to tax on its gains under rules on shares sell-offs introduced by the then Chancellor Gordon Brown in 2002 [...] The Treasury believes the 2002 change boosts Britain’s competitiveness and encourages multinationals to be based in the UK."
You don't need the EU to make things sweet for multinational corporations and if that's one of the reasons people voted for Leave they're in for a rude awakening.
posted by billiebee at 6:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
I'm sure a figleaf would look something like 'if a state dissolves and portions of it leave the EU, then the other components can negotiate to remain'. which doesn't give the Catalans any help (not the first time that the UK has not been much bloody good for them) but does actually provide a useful precedent for the future nonetheless. The UK is unique in Europe with its quasi-federalist national structure, and I have no doubt that elements of that can be used to differentiate it from Spain's position.
There are practical problems to Scotland continuing alone within the EU, as any plausible agreement with the rump UK over assumption of proportions of the national debt put it outside the fiscal requirements for membership accession, but if it's not an accession but a continuation then I expect they can be fixed - after all, when all parties to a deal want it to happen, there's usually a way.
posted by Devonian at 6:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are practical problems to Scotland continuing alone within the EU, as any plausible agreement with the rump UK over assumption of proportions of the national debt put it outside the fiscal requirements for membership accession, but if it's not an accession but a continuation then I expect they can be fixed - after all, when all parties to a deal want it to happen, there's usually a way.
posted by Devonian at 6:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This all makes a lot more sense when you realise that most people using Blairite in this way use it to mean New Labour. From that perspective, there is little to distinguish Brownites from Blairites.
Yes but there's a further nuance that's not always easy to detect in an online forum: people who use 'Blairite' to mean New Labour or not down with Corbyn because they don't know much about Labour factional squabbles (fair enough); and people who know perfectly well that Ed Miliband or Lisa Nandy or whoever aren't Blairites but call them that anyway in a passive-aggressive way to indicate that they all look the same from the lofty perspective of True Socialism (annoying).
posted by Mocata at 6:49 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes but there's a further nuance that's not always easy to detect in an online forum: people who use 'Blairite' to mean New Labour or not down with Corbyn because they don't know much about Labour factional squabbles (fair enough); and people who know perfectly well that Ed Miliband or Lisa Nandy or whoever aren't Blairites but call them that anyway in a passive-aggressive way to indicate that they all look the same from the lofty perspective of True Socialism (annoying).
posted by Mocata at 6:49 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I now wish to rescind that, and say that slavery is far too good for them and I wish to hire George R R Martin to write the script for their actual demise.
I started binge-watching Game of Thrones from the beginning a few weeks before the referendum, and it's made for a mighty surreal month, I tell you what.
Rajoy just came out and said Spain opposes any EU negotiations with Scotland after Brexit.
Blocking separatist movements among EU members to discourage your own is one thing (not a good thing, but it's a thing, and concern about it was one reason many in Scotland voted No in 2014), but blocking countries that have recently separated from non-members - which may be the case if/when an indy Scotland applies to join the EU in its own right - makes no sense at all. If that were generally the case, the EU would have no Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.
posted by rory at 6:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I started binge-watching Game of Thrones from the beginning a few weeks before the referendum, and it's made for a mighty surreal month, I tell you what.
Rajoy just came out and said Spain opposes any EU negotiations with Scotland after Brexit.
Blocking separatist movements among EU members to discourage your own is one thing (not a good thing, but it's a thing, and concern about it was one reason many in Scotland voted No in 2014), but blocking countries that have recently separated from non-members - which may be the case if/when an indy Scotland applies to join the EU in its own right - makes no sense at all. If that were generally the case, the EU would have no Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.
posted by rory at 6:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've already linked this but Vodafone was enabled by the UK.
That's not the tax scam I was referring to. Although I'm aware that Vodafone avoids tax as much as it can.
You don't need the EU to make things sweet for multinational corporations and if that's one of the reasons people voted for Leave they're in for a rude awakening.
Of course you don't need the EU to enable companies to steal tax. My point is that Vodafone announcing they're looking at moving their HQ is nothing but self-serving. They love the EU because they love billions in tax that they've stolen. If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too.
posted by Emma May Smith at 6:51 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's not the tax scam I was referring to. Although I'm aware that Vodafone avoids tax as much as it can.
You don't need the EU to make things sweet for multinational corporations and if that's one of the reasons people voted for Leave they're in for a rude awakening.
Of course you don't need the EU to enable companies to steal tax. My point is that Vodafone announcing they're looking at moving their HQ is nothing but self-serving. They love the EU because they love billions in tax that they've stolen. If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too.
posted by Emma May Smith at 6:51 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
What is a suitable figleaf for permitting regional separation?
The fact that the larger polity to which the region belongs has suddenly and drastically decided to leave Europe.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:52 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The fact that the larger polity to which the region belongs has suddenly and drastically decided to leave Europe.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:52 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too.
Even if your general sentiment with regard to perceptions of the EU in the Remain camp contra reality were correct, none of them are likely to be in for a rude awakening. Have we already forgotten that this whole Brexit thing is happening?
posted by Dysk at 6:59 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Even if your general sentiment with regard to perceptions of the EU in the Remain camp contra reality were correct, none of them are likely to be in for a rude awakening. Have we already forgotten that this whole Brexit thing is happening?
posted by Dysk at 6:59 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
My point is that Vodafone announcing they're looking at moving their HQ is nothing but self-serving
Why else would they move the company?
posted by effbot at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Why else would they move the company?
posted by effbot at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Have we already forgotten that this whole Brexit thing is happening?
It's not happening.
posted by Emma May Smith at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016
It's not happening.
posted by Emma May Smith at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016
but blocking countries that have recently separated from non-members - which may be the case if/when an indy Scotland applies to join the EU in its own right - makes no sense at all. If that were generally the case, the EU would have no Slovenia, Croatia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.
all of those countries had chosen independence before entering the EU was seen an option. Not to mention Slovenia and especially Croatia fought a war to gain independence.
The issue is that absent the option of remaining in the EU, Catalan independence is a probably not an electoral winner.
I'm not saying its right, I'm saying the PSOE and PP have felt strongly that any separatist movements are to be rejected within the EU. Politically its a non-starter for them, and the economic benefit of Scotland in for them is de minimis. You should basically start writing checks to Podemos if you want Scotland in the EU.
posted by JPD at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016
all of those countries had chosen independence before entering the EU was seen an option. Not to mention Slovenia and especially Croatia fought a war to gain independence.
The issue is that absent the option of remaining in the EU, Catalan independence is a probably not an electoral winner.
I'm not saying its right, I'm saying the PSOE and PP have felt strongly that any separatist movements are to be rejected within the EU. Politically its a non-starter for them, and the economic benefit of Scotland in for them is de minimis. You should basically start writing checks to Podemos if you want Scotland in the EU.
posted by JPD at 7:03 AM on June 29, 2016
They love the EU because they love billions in tax that they've stolen.
And they loved the UK because of the billions they helped them steal. Is that part going to change under the New Order? Is the UK going to clamp down on tax evasion and head towards more regulation? Not that anyone has a clue what the New Order will look like. Let's hope Team Leave run the country better than they ran their Exit Strategy Committee, eh?
If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too
Apart from the fact that no one has said that I'm not sure where the rude awakening comes from when apparently we're escaping the nasty mean EU?
posted by billiebee at 7:07 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
And they loved the UK because of the billions they helped them steal. Is that part going to change under the New Order? Is the UK going to clamp down on tax evasion and head towards more regulation? Not that anyone has a clue what the New Order will look like. Let's hope Team Leave run the country better than they ran their Exit Strategy Committee, eh?
If Remainers think Vodafone and Juncker are simply nice internationalists, they've got a rude awakening coming too
Apart from the fact that no one has said that I'm not sure where the rude awakening comes from when apparently we're escaping the nasty mean EU?
posted by billiebee at 7:07 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Following on from the entryism dicussion earlier, Robert Peston on Twitter:
I am told 13,000 people joined Labour last week, with 60% giving the reason they are "supporting Corbyn"....
posted by MattWPBS at 7:08 AM on June 29, 2016
I am told 13,000 people joined Labour last week, with 60% giving the reason they are "supporting Corbyn"....
posted by MattWPBS at 7:08 AM on June 29, 2016
It's not happening.
Do you have any sort of source for that at all? Because it sure looks like it's happening, even if article 50 won't be invoked immediately. I don't see anyone actually in the political arena seriously arguing against ever invoking it, but maybe things have changed since I looked at the news?
Besides which, I seriously doubt anyone expects the EU to play nicely under the circumstances if we weren't to leave. Any and all political good will has been well and truly pissed away now, and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated. The population of Britain just screamed "fuck your friendship" in their face - nobody is expecting a hug in response.
posted by Dysk at 7:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Do you have any sort of source for that at all? Because it sure looks like it's happening, even if article 50 won't be invoked immediately. I don't see anyone actually in the political arena seriously arguing against ever invoking it, but maybe things have changed since I looked at the news?
Besides which, I seriously doubt anyone expects the EU to play nicely under the circumstances if we weren't to leave. Any and all political good will has been well and truly pissed away now, and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated. The population of Britain just screamed "fuck your friendship" in their face - nobody is expecting a hug in response.
posted by Dysk at 7:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
I am told 13,000 people joined Labour last week, with 60% giving the reason they are "supporting Corbyn"...
Yes, but it might be a good idea for them to hold the conference in Hackney this year, so they can be closer to the membership. One of the Twitter accounts I follow, that just went Spart, is retweeting all the people going "I joined to support Jeremy", and they're very much of a type.
They'll successfully take full control of the cockpit, banish the old flight crew but haven't considered that there's no one left on board with more than a provisional driving license.
"Goodness, Seamus! This is a lot more complicated than my Austin Allegro!"
posted by Grangousier at 7:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, but it might be a good idea for them to hold the conference in Hackney this year, so they can be closer to the membership. One of the Twitter accounts I follow, that just went Spart, is retweeting all the people going "I joined to support Jeremy", and they're very much of a type.
They'll successfully take full control of the cockpit, banish the old flight crew but haven't considered that there's no one left on board with more than a provisional driving license.
"Goodness, Seamus! This is a lot more complicated than my Austin Allegro!"
posted by Grangousier at 7:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
To be fair, it may not yet be happening for Vodafone since their stock is now trading in the UK as the same price as before the vote. I think so many people have had a bellyful of banks and companies threatening to leave for so long now that it just bounces off.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:15 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:15 AM on June 29, 2016
Any and all political good will has been well and truly pissed away now, and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated.
Sad to say, this captures how many of the continental Europeans feel.
posted by infini at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sad to say, this captures how many of the continental Europeans feel.
posted by infini at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
all of those countries had chosen independence before entering the EU was seen an option.
The EU absorbed its first Warsaw pact nation (though not as a separate member) in 1990, a few months after the Berlin Wall came down. I know that the four others mentioned weren't officially on EU-track until much later, but people were imagining the possibilities of the post-Cold War landscape more or less from the moment the Wall fell.
posted by rory at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016
The EU absorbed its first Warsaw pact nation (though not as a separate member) in 1990, a few months after the Berlin Wall came down. I know that the four others mentioned weren't officially on EU-track until much later, but people were imagining the possibilities of the post-Cold War landscape more or less from the moment the Wall fell.
posted by rory at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016
I think Hackney, at 78 percent, had the highest Remaon vote in the country!
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:27 AM on June 29, 2016
Beyond the Brexit debate
UK, EU Talk Past Each Other on Brexit Negotiations
In praise of can-kicking
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
UK, EU Talk Past Each Other on Brexit Negotiations
In praise of can-kicking
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
PSOE and PP have felt strongly that any separatist movements are to be rejected within the EU.
But Scotland won't be a separatist movement within the EU. Right now, England and Wales are the separatist movement within the EU (in effect, if not intent).
posted by rory at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
But Scotland won't be a separatist movement within the EU. Right now, England and Wales are the separatist movement within the EU (in effect, if not intent).
posted by rory at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
and there is no incentive for the EU to do anything but hold the UK in the contempt with which they are in turn treated.
Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that. They may need to put fig leaves and other trimmings on top of their associations [1], but at the end of the day the deals they make reflect economic and military power, not the pretty speeches made by politicians or noises made by their citizens [2].
[1] See the nature of the relationships Saudi Arabia has with other nations
[2] See how the Iraq war rolled out
posted by phearlez at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that. They may need to put fig leaves and other trimmings on top of their associations [1], but at the end of the day the deals they make reflect economic and military power, not the pretty speeches made by politicians or noises made by their citizens [2].
[1] See the nature of the relationships Saudi Arabia has with other nations
[2] See how the Iraq war rolled out
posted by phearlez at 7:34 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
But Scotland won't be a separatist movement within the EU. Right now, England and Wales are the separatist movement within the EU (in effect, if not intent).
That's not how the Spanish see it.
I completely fail to see what German reunification has to do with this conversation.
posted by JPD at 7:38 AM on June 29, 2016
That's not how the Spanish see it.
I completely fail to see what German reunification has to do with this conversation.
posted by JPD at 7:38 AM on June 29, 2016
Varoufakis summarizes Zizek's take on Brexit:
The real, actual choice is between (A) a vicious cycle between (1 [neo-liberalism]) & (2 [fascism]) above and (B) a pan-European democratic project addressing the actual challenges humanity faces (e.g. the deflationary moment in our history, the inexorable devaluation of human labour, TTIP like attacks on sovereignty, climate change etc.).
posted by notyou at 7:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The real, actual choice is between (A) a vicious cycle between (1 [neo-liberalism]) & (2 [fascism]) above and (B) a pan-European democratic project addressing the actual challenges humanity faces (e.g. the deflationary moment in our history, the inexorable devaluation of human labour, TTIP like attacks on sovereignty, climate change etc.).
posted by notyou at 7:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Opendemocracy article on Scotland and the EU post brexit. - including discussion of options with or without independence.
posted by rongorongo at 7:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 7:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that.
Okay, rephrased for bureaucratese: the EU no longer has a reason to be beholden to the UK with its tenuous membership of the EU not being something in need of consideration any longer. The power relationship has changed, and the EU organisationally is no longer bound to, and no longer has any incentives to, consider the UK's interests such as it did before.
All compounded by the UK no longer having meaningful representation in the organisation to press its interests internally going forward.
posted by Dysk at 7:45 AM on June 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Okay, rephrased for bureaucratese: the EU no longer has a reason to be beholden to the UK with its tenuous membership of the EU not being something in need of consideration any longer. The power relationship has changed, and the EU organisationally is no longer bound to, and no longer has any incentives to, consider the UK's interests such as it did before.
All compounded by the UK no longer having meaningful representation in the organisation to press its interests internally going forward.
posted by Dysk at 7:45 AM on June 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Blog entry about yesterday's European Parliament meeting by Vytenis Andriukaitis a.k.a Facepalm Man*
* Lithuanian former surgeon who was born in a Stalin-era labour camp who was being told he'd never had a job.
Garage is a national humiliation. He should be summoned to Buckingham Palace, where the Queen will watch him being kicked in the balls by representatives of all the national rugby teams of the UK for two hours. Every day.
posted by Grangousier at 8:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
* Lithuanian former surgeon who was born in a Stalin-era labour camp who was being told he'd never had a job.
Garage is a national humiliation. He should be summoned to Buckingham Palace, where the Queen will watch him being kicked in the balls by representatives of all the national rugby teams of the UK for two hours. Every day.
posted by Grangousier at 8:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [22 favorites]
"Okay, now we are amused."
posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
The 7 out of 10 remark perfectly defines Corbyn's mindset. All he's ever wanted to be is a mouthpiece for other people [etc]
This is a nice argument but leaves out that Corbyn actually exercises moral and practical judgment over the opinions he chooses to give voice to. He isn't self-divided on the death penalty, or the desirability of mass deportations, or of detaining suspected terrorists without trial, as he'd have to be if he really aimed to give voice to the views of all the Labour voters out there.
And if it's alright for him to do that, why isn't it alright for the PLP - speaking collectively for many millions more voters - to exercise its practical and moral judgment about the desirability of letting him bumble on with a wonderful programme that he'll never ever get a chance to implement, a programme he makes less likely to be implemented the longer he sticks around?
posted by Mocata at 8:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is a nice argument but leaves out that Corbyn actually exercises moral and practical judgment over the opinions he chooses to give voice to. He isn't self-divided on the death penalty, or the desirability of mass deportations, or of detaining suspected terrorists without trial, as he'd have to be if he really aimed to give voice to the views of all the Labour voters out there.
And if it's alright for him to do that, why isn't it alright for the PLP - speaking collectively for many millions more voters - to exercise its practical and moral judgment about the desirability of letting him bumble on with a wonderful programme that he'll never ever get a chance to implement, a programme he makes less likely to be implemented the longer he sticks around?
posted by Mocata at 8:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Garage is a national humiliation.
That said Farage when I typed it. Fucking autocorrect.
posted by Grangousier at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
That said Farage when I typed it. Fucking autocorrect.
posted by Grangousier at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Umm, ok, so Sky News journos say Corbyn is aiming to use the re-election to abandon representative democracy. The masses should run the party, rebellious right wing cronies MPs will be punished, etc. What's next, struggle sessions?
posted by effbot at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by effbot at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
John Craig Chief Political Correspondent, Sky News : Some Labour MPs believe Corbyn clinging on to respond to Chilcot next week, apologise on behalf of Lab & call for Blair war crimes trial.
Now that is something I would dearly like to hear.
posted by adamvasco at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Now that is something I would dearly like to hear.
posted by adamvasco at 8:13 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I completely fail to see what German reunification has to do with this conversation.
Just that people were thinking about a larger EU that embraced former Warsaw pact countries from the start of the post-Cold War era; it wasn't just something that occurred to them in the early 2000s, after Slovenia and Croatia became independent and Czechoslovakia separated. So the fact of separation in and of itself shouldn't be an obstacle to joining the EU. The specific circumstances of each country should be taken into account.
Part of Scotland's circumstances is that it held back from separating, in extremely recent memory, in part because of the effect that might have on its EU membership, knowing that Spain wouldn't want to reward a separatist movement elsewhere. Any separation now would be under totally different circumstances. Without those new circumstances, none of us would even be talking about it. (In 2016, anyway.)
We seem to have ended up in a situation where if England and Wales declared independence from the United Kingdom, leaving Scotland and Northern Ireland as a rump UK within the EU and them out of it, Spain would presumably be happy (because Scotland/NI won't be the ones doing the separating), but if Scotland and/or NI declare independence from a Brexiting UK specifically to remain in the EU, Spain won't be happy. Forget sending cheques to Podemos, Scotland should be sending them to... UKIP? Oh Christ.
I'm still holding out hope that a go-slow by the Cabinet Office will save us all.
posted by rory at 8:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just that people were thinking about a larger EU that embraced former Warsaw pact countries from the start of the post-Cold War era; it wasn't just something that occurred to them in the early 2000s, after Slovenia and Croatia became independent and Czechoslovakia separated. So the fact of separation in and of itself shouldn't be an obstacle to joining the EU. The specific circumstances of each country should be taken into account.
Part of Scotland's circumstances is that it held back from separating, in extremely recent memory, in part because of the effect that might have on its EU membership, knowing that Spain wouldn't want to reward a separatist movement elsewhere. Any separation now would be under totally different circumstances. Without those new circumstances, none of us would even be talking about it. (In 2016, anyway.)
We seem to have ended up in a situation where if England and Wales declared independence from the United Kingdom, leaving Scotland and Northern Ireland as a rump UK within the EU and them out of it, Spain would presumably be happy (because Scotland/NI won't be the ones doing the separating), but if Scotland and/or NI declare independence from a Brexiting UK specifically to remain in the EU, Spain won't be happy. Forget sending cheques to Podemos, Scotland should be sending them to... UKIP? Oh Christ.
I'm still holding out hope that a go-slow by the Cabinet Office will save us all.
posted by rory at 8:15 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Contempt is a human emotion experienced by biological beings, not governments, and the people who make deals know that.
Governments don't have an existence independent of the choices and actions of biological beings that compose them, and the people who make deals know that. Ask any diplomat.
An awful lot of people seem inclined to assign agency to abstract concepts like "neoliberalism" or "socialism," or to imagine that political leaders are speaking as the avatars of constructed entities like "the EU" or "the Leave campaign" as though these entities had some kind of independent existence and will. But there are only humans making human decisions based on human emotion with human abilities and limitations. The whole referendum fiasco really should lay that bare. None of the constructed political or corporate systems with power to hold the referendum benefited from doing so, and certainly not in the poorly-thought-out way it was done (50% threshold, seriously?). Rather human actors like David Cameron decided to do so, out of hubris, ambition, myopia, and other very human qualities.
Understanding complex constructed systems like governments, economies, and ideologies at the level of aggregate behavior is absolutely important. But at their core, these systems are just collections of humans with all the strengths and frailties that go along with being human. Contempt is absolutely a human emotion that could influence how the EU and UK are able to negotiate over the coming months/years.
posted by biogeo at 8:16 AM on June 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
Governments don't have an existence independent of the choices and actions of biological beings that compose them, and the people who make deals know that. Ask any diplomat.
An awful lot of people seem inclined to assign agency to abstract concepts like "neoliberalism" or "socialism," or to imagine that political leaders are speaking as the avatars of constructed entities like "the EU" or "the Leave campaign" as though these entities had some kind of independent existence and will. But there are only humans making human decisions based on human emotion with human abilities and limitations. The whole referendum fiasco really should lay that bare. None of the constructed political or corporate systems with power to hold the referendum benefited from doing so, and certainly not in the poorly-thought-out way it was done (50% threshold, seriously?). Rather human actors like David Cameron decided to do so, out of hubris, ambition, myopia, and other very human qualities.
Understanding complex constructed systems like governments, economies, and ideologies at the level of aggregate behavior is absolutely important. But at their core, these systems are just collections of humans with all the strengths and frailties that go along with being human. Contempt is absolutely a human emotion that could influence how the EU and UK are able to negotiate over the coming months/years.
posted by biogeo at 8:16 AM on June 29, 2016 [24 favorites]
> Garage is a national humiliation.
That said Farage when I typed it. Fucking autocorrect.
Here in the American South we call him Nigel Car Park.
posted by biogeo at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
That said Farage when I typed it. Fucking autocorrect.
Here in the American South we call him Nigel Car Park.
posted by biogeo at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Nigel Garage is a far better name for the man.
Boris was renamed Silvio Borisconi by a fellow Tory MP in Parliament today. That too is a marked improvement.
posted by Devonian at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Boris was renamed Silvio Borisconi by a fellow Tory MP in Parliament today. That too is a marked improvement.
posted by Devonian at 8:17 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Umm, ok, so Sky News journos say Corbyn is aiming to use the re-election to abandon representative democracy.
It's weird. We have a name for a system of political power whereby the adoration of the masses empowers a single leader who imposes uniformity and control from above, and they wouldn't like it to be applied to them. I can only assume they haven't thought it through.
posted by Grangousier at 8:18 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's weird. We have a name for a system of political power whereby the adoration of the masses empowers a single leader who imposes uniformity and control from above, and they wouldn't like it to be applied to them. I can only assume they haven't thought it through.
posted by Grangousier at 8:18 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nigel Garage is a far better name for the man.
When he appeared on Have I Got News For You (yes, another walking disaster they enabled early on) he said he didn't care who his name was pronounced as long as people were talking about him. I've called him Niggle Farrago ever since.
posted by Grangousier at 8:20 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
When he appeared on Have I Got News For You (yes, another walking disaster they enabled early on) he said he didn't care who his name was pronounced as long as people were talking about him. I've called him Niggle Farrago ever since.
posted by Grangousier at 8:20 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Christ, not this again. In what topsy-turvy world is deselection the abandonment of representative democracy? Almost to a woman and man they are MPs solely because of the Labour Party stamp not the other way round and if the membership of the party chooses someone else, that's democracy.
posted by Abiezer at 8:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 8:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Blog entry about yesterday's European Parliament meeting by Vytenis Andriukaitis a.k.a Facepalm Man*
I sort of wish I hadn't read that. I've been cycling through the grief stages and this has brought me to the next one.
Denial
Friday morning to Partner as soon as we woke up, "Check the results would you?"
Long pause.
Him: "UK votes to Leave".
Me: "Nooo! What? Nooo! Are you serious?! Noooo!" etc. All day.
Anger
"They didn't even think of us over here! We didn't even want this shit! Fuck them to hell and back if things go bad here again!" etc.
Bargaining
Wrote to my MP asking him to vote against any Parliamentary motion to Leave. Read many blogs and articles about Article 50. Crossed fingers, lit candles etc.
Depression
Read Vytenis Andriukaitis' blog which said "Jo Cox was killed because of people instigating hate, chauvinism and phobias." How do we fight that when the people who encouraged those feelings all through the campaign actually won? For the first time I wanted to cry.
Not sure when Acceptance comes.
posted by billiebee at 8:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
I sort of wish I hadn't read that. I've been cycling through the grief stages and this has brought me to the next one.
Denial
Friday morning to Partner as soon as we woke up, "Check the results would you?"
Long pause.
Him: "UK votes to Leave".
Me: "Nooo! What? Nooo! Are you serious?! Noooo!" etc. All day.
Anger
"They didn't even think of us over here! We didn't even want this shit! Fuck them to hell and back if things go bad here again!" etc.
Bargaining
Wrote to my MP asking him to vote against any Parliamentary motion to Leave. Read many blogs and articles about Article 50. Crossed fingers, lit candles etc.
Depression
Read Vytenis Andriukaitis' blog which said "Jo Cox was killed because of people instigating hate, chauvinism and phobias." How do we fight that when the people who encouraged those feelings all through the campaign actually won? For the first time I wanted to cry.
Not sure when Acceptance comes.
posted by billiebee at 8:27 AM on June 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Umm, ok, so Sky News journos say Corbyn is aiming to use the re-election to abandon representative democracy. The masses should run the party, rebellious right wing cronies MPs will be punished, etc. What's next, struggle sessions?
I really hope that's either not true, or missing a lot of detail.
Could do with looking at the Lib Dem model - constituency parties send elected representatives and policy suggestions to conference, conference elects people to the Federal Policy Committee (along with other areas of the party), Federal Policy Committee formulates policy, consituency parties discuss policy from the FPC, send elected representatives to conference to vote on them, etc, etc.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really hope that's either not true, or missing a lot of detail.
Could do with looking at the Lib Dem model - constituency parties send elected representatives and policy suggestions to conference, conference elects people to the Federal Policy Committee (along with other areas of the party), Federal Policy Committee formulates policy, consituency parties discuss policy from the FPC, send elected representatives to conference to vote on them, etc, etc.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rather human actors like David Cameron decided to do so, out of hubris, ambition, myopia, and other very human qualities.
Sure. So please, humans of the EU, when considering how to deal with the fate of the humans of the UK, remember that we collectively outnumber the handful of humans who led us to this point by millions to one. That's the problem with all these cartoons representing the UK as David Cameron with a Union Jack briefcase.
Yes, the man was a fool even to contemplate this. One of the many reasons I and most people in Britain didn't vote for him or his party.
posted by rory at 8:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sure. So please, humans of the EU, when considering how to deal with the fate of the humans of the UK, remember that we collectively outnumber the handful of humans who led us to this point by millions to one. That's the problem with all these cartoons representing the UK as David Cameron with a Union Jack briefcase.
Yes, the man was a fool even to contemplate this. One of the many reasons I and most people in Britain didn't vote for him or his party.
posted by rory at 8:32 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
There was widespread discontent in the Labour party during Blair years when shortlists for prospective candidates were provided to CLPs to choose from, and changes to the rules of conference / policy was implemented, leaving a lot of CLPs feeling like they had no say in Labour candidates or policies and why a lot of MPs are not getting much in the way of CLP support at the moment.
(I have to apologise for lack of detail here, It was before my time and I don't know the specifics so could be wildly incorrect. But this is the impression that I've got from talking to others).
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:34 AM on June 29, 2016
(I have to apologise for lack of detail here, It was before my time and I don't know the specifics so could be wildly incorrect. But this is the impression that I've got from talking to others).
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 8:34 AM on June 29, 2016
Christ, not this again. In what topsy-turvy world is deselection the abandonment of representative democracy? Almost to a woman and man they are MPs solely because of the Labour Party stamp not the other way round and if the membership of the party chooses someone else, that's democracy.
Yes I agree that this talk is overblown, like the Trot entryist talk. Disagree that it's a sensible course for Corbyn to pursue. Even if he pulled it off he'd just get wiped put in a general election. And then what? Stick around complaining he'd have won if not for the right wing wreckers so the loss doesn't count? If you like his programme your only hope is some kind of Corbynism without Corbyn, as Owen Jones and others can see. The fact that so many of his supporters won't see that makes me worry not only that they're badly informed about the realities of taking power in the actually existing political system, but that Corbyn and those around him are deluding themselves and their fans.
posted by Mocata at 8:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes I agree that this talk is overblown, like the Trot entryist talk. Disagree that it's a sensible course for Corbyn to pursue. Even if he pulled it off he'd just get wiped put in a general election. And then what? Stick around complaining he'd have won if not for the right wing wreckers so the loss doesn't count? If you like his programme your only hope is some kind of Corbynism without Corbyn, as Owen Jones and others can see. The fact that so many of his supporters won't see that makes me worry not only that they're badly informed about the realities of taking power in the actually existing political system, but that Corbyn and those around him are deluding themselves and their fans.
posted by Mocata at 8:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've got Corbyn-supporting friends on Facebook saying 1) Corbyn shouldn't be required to have the support of a small fraction of MPs in order to run in a leadership contest, because he's already the leader, and 2) The Tories want Corbyn to go because they're scared of how effective his opposition will be after he wins the leadership election. Even though he lost a confidence vote among his own MPs and his own Shadow Cabinet.
This is all real stuff that is actually happening
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:40 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is all real stuff that is actually happening
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:40 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Broadly agree as regards deselection Mocata, and further think there'd be more than a chance that a fair few would stand as independents splitting the vote.
But I do think he should stick it out now as I think he's looking to win this fight not for himself but precisely so you can have a leader chosen by the membership - if they go for someone else convinced he'd cheerfully hand on the baton (or put another way, it's not important he wins, it's important the managerialist bubble loses). See the four big unions have just backed him (and a leadership election), looks like he might still win this staring contest.
posted by Abiezer at 8:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I do think he should stick it out now as I think he's looking to win this fight not for himself but precisely so you can have a leader chosen by the membership - if they go for someone else convinced he'd cheerfully hand on the baton (or put another way, it's not important he wins, it's important the managerialist bubble loses). See the four big unions have just backed him (and a leadership election), looks like he might still win this staring contest.
posted by Abiezer at 8:41 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, my thumbnail sketch of the entryist route to power was *totally* overblown and alarmist wasn’t it? Except for the fact that I called exactly this move in advance of it happening.
posted by pharm at 8:41 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by pharm at 8:41 AM on June 29, 2016
The Tories want Corbyn to go because they're scared of how effective his opposition will be after he wins the leadership election. Even though he lost a confidence vote among his own MPs and his own Shadow Cabinet.
There is actually a Telegraph article from the initial election he won with a Tory frankly saying just that, not because he's effective but because his very existence and the questions he asks drags the Overton window to the left.
posted by Abiezer at 8:43 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
There is actually a Telegraph article from the initial election he won with a Tory frankly saying just that, not because he's effective but because his very existence and the questions he asks drags the Overton window to the left.
posted by Abiezer at 8:43 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
But a lot as changed since he initially became leader, as indicated by most of his Shadow Cabinet resigning. Surely the Tories would be delighted to have a continuing dysfunctional opposition? Every time Corbyn speaks they can remind him that he doesn't even have the support of his own MPs.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:45 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:45 AM on June 29, 2016
The Tories willingly brought this apocalyptic referendum upon the UK and it would seem like the perfect time for an opposition party to undermine and dominate them, but instead we have... whatever this is.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Talk on Twitter of Corbyn stepping down sometime in the next day or so?
posted by My Dad at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by My Dad at 8:48 AM on June 29, 2016
Is 2016 sufficiently demented that it could include a big Lib Dem comeback? (Probably not)
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:49 AM on June 29, 2016
But a lot as changed since he initially became leader, as indicated by most of his Shadow Cabinet resigning. Surely the Tories would be delighted to have a continuing dysfunctional opposition? Every time Corbyn speaks they can remind him that he doesn't even have the support of his own MPs.
It's predicated on the real contest being the slightly longer game of what sort of Labour Party contests the next election which is expected in short order I think. But clearly I'm no parliamentary strategist.
posted by Abiezer at 8:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's predicated on the real contest being the slightly longer game of what sort of Labour Party contests the next election which is expected in short order I think. But clearly I'm no parliamentary strategist.
posted by Abiezer at 8:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
We seem to have ended up in a situation where if England and Wales declared independence from the United Kingdom, leaving Scotland and Northern Ireland as a rump UK within the EU and them out of it, Spain would presumably be happy (because Scotland/NI won't be the ones doing the separating), but if Scotland and/or NI declare independence from a Brexiting UK specifically to remain in the EU, Spain won't be happy. Forget sending cheques to Podemos, Scotland should be sending them to... UKIP? Oh Christ.
I seem to remember - but I'm sure as hell not going to look it up - that UKIP's view on Scottish independence is that the Scottish parliament be dissolved and Scotland put back under complete control by Westminster. So put those chequebooks away, everyone.
It's very interesting to contemplate that if reverse-indy happened and Wangland left the UK, then the result would be identical to Scotland leaving and rejoining/remaining in the EU. One would be acceptable to (and in fact un-vetoable by) the Spanish; the other would be unacceptble and vetoed, despite them both leading to exactly the same outcome. Which leaves me more convinced that there will be a path through this, and a formula can be created, that threads this particular needle.
posted by Devonian at 8:51 AM on June 29, 2016
I seem to remember - but I'm sure as hell not going to look it up - that UKIP's view on Scottish independence is that the Scottish parliament be dissolved and Scotland put back under complete control by Westminster. So put those chequebooks away, everyone.
It's very interesting to contemplate that if reverse-indy happened and Wangland left the UK, then the result would be identical to Scotland leaving and rejoining/remaining in the EU. One would be acceptable to (and in fact un-vetoable by) the Spanish; the other would be unacceptble and vetoed, despite them both leading to exactly the same outcome. Which leaves me more convinced that there will be a path through this, and a formula can be created, that threads this particular needle.
posted by Devonian at 8:51 AM on June 29, 2016
Labour MP Jess Phillips has confronted Jeremy Corbyn’s chief strategist, shouting “This is f***ing personal” at him in Westminster yesterday.
The angry confrontation took place in one of the most public spots in parliament building as tensions in the Labour party are growing increasingly fractured and MPs attempt to topple Mr Corbyn.
The angry exchange between the MP and Strategy and Communications Chief Seumas Milne reportedly happened after a Corbyn supporter appeared to threaten online to ‘take a blow torch’ to Ms Phillips’ neck.
She later tweeted that the expression 'take a blow torch to her neck' may have been a slang term to imply she had a 'brass neck' rather than a threat to her safety.
>>>Apparently saying you could put a blow torch to my neck is a commonly used phrase for "brass neck" not ever heard before, so not a threat
posted by My Dad at 8:53 AM on June 29, 2016
The angry confrontation took place in one of the most public spots in parliament building as tensions in the Labour party are growing increasingly fractured and MPs attempt to topple Mr Corbyn.
The angry exchange between the MP and Strategy and Communications Chief Seumas Milne reportedly happened after a Corbyn supporter appeared to threaten online to ‘take a blow torch’ to Ms Phillips’ neck.
She later tweeted that the expression 'take a blow torch to her neck' may have been a slang term to imply she had a 'brass neck' rather than a threat to her safety.
>>>Apparently saying you could put a blow torch to my neck is a commonly used phrase for "brass neck" not ever heard before, so not a threat
posted by My Dad at 8:53 AM on June 29, 2016
Is 2016 sufficiently demented that it could include a big Lib Dem comeback? (Probably not)
They've come out clearly for keeping in the EU, and some reports suggest they've gained members because of it. If they offer a reforming message they could pick up a lot of disaffected voters. It would be great were it to happen.
posted by Emma May Smith at 8:54 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
They've come out clearly for keeping in the EU, and some reports suggest they've gained members because of it. If they offer a reforming message they could pick up a lot of disaffected voters. It would be great were it to happen.
posted by Emma May Smith at 8:54 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
OK I'm updating my predictions slightly in line with current events. Tory PM calls a general election contrasting a hugely shrunken Leave offer with the sour grapes Remainers on the other side. Tory shires grumble but there's enough there to make the sovereignty fiends suck it up in exchange for an end to Corbyno-Scot-Nat terror or whatever. Lib Dems soak up some angry Remainers in the cities. Farage and co gobble up more voters in Labour regions who thought they were getting an end to globalisation. Labour Party collapses for a generation or gets replaced by something else. Unless it's split by then which is now looking possible too. Or unless Corbyn holds on and campaigns on a Left Brexit platform, in which case Labour holds on to a bit more of its heartlands but loses the cities and university towns thanks to resurgent Lib Dems, with the same ultimate result.
posted by Mocata at 8:58 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Mocata at 8:58 AM on June 29, 2016
Strategy and Communications Chief Seumas Milne
Talking about Milne, here's from a ITV journo: Just been told Corbyn has said in the last day he wants out, he's had enough. But his Dir of Comms @SeumasMilne told him he should stay.
And on the other side of the plank, Gove's wife apparently just cc:d the wrong folks on a mail with instructions for her husband (not linking, it'll be everywhere soon anyway).
posted by effbot at 9:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Talking about Milne, here's from a ITV journo: Just been told Corbyn has said in the last day he wants out, he's had enough. But his Dir of Comms @SeumasMilne told him he should stay.
And on the other side of the plank, Gove's wife apparently just cc:d the wrong folks on a mail with instructions for her husband (not linking, it'll be everywhere soon anyway).
posted by effbot at 9:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is 2016 sufficiently demented that it could include a big Lib Dem comeback? (Probably not)
Membership is above 2010 levels, vote share in the 2016 local elections was up 4%, and we got 43 more councillors. I fully expect that vote share to be replicated in our number of MPs, leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.
Exciting times for the party, and also for experimental portable life support systems!
posted by MattWPBS at 9:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Membership is above 2010 levels, vote share in the 2016 local elections was up 4%, and we got 43 more councillors. I fully expect that vote share to be replicated in our number of MPs, leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.
Exciting times for the party, and also for experimental portable life support systems!
posted by MattWPBS at 9:01 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh. This is politics prosecuted as an exciting new form of comedy, it's just that being in the middle of it we can't see the joke.
posted by Grangousier at 9:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:05 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.
nicknamed Douglas Third
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:06 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
nicknamed Douglas Third
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:06 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
The Sarah Vine/Gove email reveals that politicians strike deals and bargain with one another before supporting one another's leadership bids. Incendiary stuff.
posted by Mocata at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mocata at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
leading to an 0.32 of an MP in the House of Commons.
Could timeshare with another party that needs 0.68 of an MP. Or do locum cover in the Shadow Cabinet.
posted by Grangousier at 9:20 AM on June 29, 2016
Could timeshare with another party that needs 0.68 of an MP. Or do locum cover in the Shadow Cabinet.
posted by Grangousier at 9:20 AM on June 29, 2016
Apparently the reason for the Jess Philips/Seamus Milne shouting match was him telling her "don’t take it personally" with regards to the blowtorch comment. This could be down to misunderstandings.
Jess Philips was a close friend of Jo Cox, and she thinks she's just had a threat of violence after her friend has been murdered. She thinks she's just been told by Seamus Milne not to take a threat of violence personally. She understandably blows her top at him.
Seamus Milne is familiar with "could put a blowtorch to your neck" being a colloquialism for "you've got a brass neck", and assumes Jess Philips is too. He thinks she's complaining about normal Twitter level politician bashing, and that he's telling her not to take that so personally.
I can't say I've ever heard it, but Google does show it can be used that way. Looks like mainly in Scotland, which would make sense given Seamus Milne's family is Scottish.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jess Philips was a close friend of Jo Cox, and she thinks she's just had a threat of violence after her friend has been murdered. She thinks she's just been told by Seamus Milne not to take a threat of violence personally. She understandably blows her top at him.
Seamus Milne is familiar with "could put a blowtorch to your neck" being a colloquialism for "you've got a brass neck", and assumes Jess Philips is too. He thinks she's complaining about normal Twitter level politician bashing, and that he's telling her not to take that so personally.
I can't say I've ever heard it, but Google does show it can be used that way. Looks like mainly in Scotland, which would make sense given Seamus Milne's family is Scottish.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
A London friend said "I guess I should throw my lot in with the LibDems. But they're not due to be forgiven for (checks watch) another ten years".
The major problem with centrist politics at the moment, well apart from all the fucking chaos, is that it's impossible for Unionist parties to play coalitions with the SNP in Westminster. The LibDems weren't traditionally Unionist in Scotland, but became so quite recently, and there are consistent rumours that the Scottish Labs are considering their position on this - the SNP's results show that non-Unionist parties do attract Unionist votes, and the point is seemingly increasingly moot given Labour's current prospects.
But at this time, nobody has a clue when the next election will be, what the parties will look like, what the political environment will be like or what the manifestos will be.
Most interesting aspect of the Gove email is the implication that it's really Dacre/Murdoch who want specific promises in return for backing Boris. I'm not quite sure exactly what those are - I assume it's for full nativism.
posted by Devonian at 9:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
The major problem with centrist politics at the moment, well apart from all the fucking chaos, is that it's impossible for Unionist parties to play coalitions with the SNP in Westminster. The LibDems weren't traditionally Unionist in Scotland, but became so quite recently, and there are consistent rumours that the Scottish Labs are considering their position on this - the SNP's results show that non-Unionist parties do attract Unionist votes, and the point is seemingly increasingly moot given Labour's current prospects.
But at this time, nobody has a clue when the next election will be, what the parties will look like, what the political environment will be like or what the manifestos will be.
Most interesting aspect of the Gove email is the implication that it's really Dacre/Murdoch who want specific promises in return for backing Boris. I'm not quite sure exactly what those are - I assume it's for full nativism.
posted by Devonian at 9:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
>Apparently the reason for the Jess Philips/Seamus Milne shouting match
Sorry, I had forgotten this, from last December:
Labour MP Jess Phillips will 'knife Corbyn in the front' if he damages party
But then there's this, from May 31:
Labour MP Jess Phillips receives more than 600 rape threats in one night
posted by My Dad at 9:30 AM on June 29, 2016
Sorry, I had forgotten this, from last December:
Labour MP Jess Phillips will 'knife Corbyn in the front' if he damages party
But then there's this, from May 31:
Labour MP Jess Phillips receives more than 600 rape threats in one night
posted by My Dad at 9:30 AM on June 29, 2016
I note that in Farage's speech to the European Parliament he says it would be better for the UK to leave the EU even without any trade deals at all, rather than maintain the status quo. A friend says "thus turning Britain into feudal Japan at the height of the Tokugawa Shogunate"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:33 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:33 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
The land of the setting sun.
posted by Grangousier at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
> Do you have any sort of source for that at all? Because it sure looks like it's happening, even if article 50 won't be invoked immediately. I don't see anyone actually in the political arena seriously arguing against ever invoking it, but maybe things have changed since I looked at the news?
At this point we know it's not getting invoked until October, unless something truly bizarre happens.
If Conservative MPs spurn Boris and nominate two remain-supporting leaders, it's not getting invoked at all.
If they nominate one leaver and one remainer, Tory party members will vote overwhelmingly for the leaver, but at that point they'll have to figure out once and for all whether the PM can invoke Article 50 unilaterally. If he needs Parliament, it isn't getting invoked any time soon. This Parliament will not vote for leaving unless their backs are against the wall.
The point isn't that it's certainly not going to happen; the point is that there's no reason whatsoever to invoke it right now until this big mess gets untangled, and I think there are only about three people in the UK who (a) have a shot at running the country and (b) would press that button knowing how high the stakes are. The poisoned chalice is a real thing.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
At this point we know it's not getting invoked until October, unless something truly bizarre happens.
If Conservative MPs spurn Boris and nominate two remain-supporting leaders, it's not getting invoked at all.
If they nominate one leaver and one remainer, Tory party members will vote overwhelmingly for the leaver, but at that point they'll have to figure out once and for all whether the PM can invoke Article 50 unilaterally. If he needs Parliament, it isn't getting invoked any time soon. This Parliament will not vote for leaving unless their backs are against the wall.
The point isn't that it's certainly not going to happen; the point is that there's no reason whatsoever to invoke it right now until this big mess gets untangled, and I think there are only about three people in the UK who (a) have a shot at running the country and (b) would press that button knowing how high the stakes are. The poisoned chalice is a real thing.
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
> "Which leaves me more convinced that there will be a path through this, and a formula can be created, that threads this particular needle."
While I do not expect it to happen, it would be super-interesting if the most sensible way forward turns out to be England declaring that it is seceding from Scotland.
posted by kyrademon at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016
While I do not expect it to happen, it would be super-interesting if the most sensible way forward turns out to be England declaring that it is seceding from Scotland.
posted by kyrademon at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016
Aye, I don't think anyone would take 'knife him in the front' as a serious physical threat. 'Knife in the back' is a pretty well known saying, and it's not much of a twist on that at all. It didn't lead to the same seeming misunderstanding as 'I could put a blowtorch to your neck'.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by MattWPBS at 9:35 AM on June 29, 2016
The sun never sets on the British Empire, if you include the Pitcairn Islands
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:36 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and one more thing:
Why was the question “Can the PM invoke Article 50 unilaterally” not somehow settled before this fucking referendum? Is there no process for figuring that out? I get that the government wasn't going to have any sort of a Brexit strategy, but surely the question of “who is allowed to make this decision” is simple enough to have been determined beforehand… right?
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Why was the question “Can the PM invoke Article 50 unilaterally” not somehow settled before this fucking referendum? Is there no process for figuring that out? I get that the government wasn't going to have any sort of a Brexit strategy, but surely the question of “who is allowed to make this decision” is simple enough to have been determined beforehand… right?
posted by savetheclocktower at 9:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Milne is not the police. He is not responsible for anyone's security arrangements so it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:38 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 9:38 AM on June 29, 2016
Maybe someone could write down how the government is supposed to work in the form of a constitution HAHA JK LOL
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:39 AM on June 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Why was the question “Can the PM invoke Article 50 unilaterally” not somehow settled before this fucking referendum?
Because the leave campaign was run by a bunch of ex-journalists turned politicians who don’t do detail.
posted by pharm at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Because the leave campaign was run by a bunch of ex-journalists turned politicians who don’t do detail.
posted by pharm at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Wait a second. Look at that date. I caused all of this, didn't I?
posted by Apocryphon at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 9:40 AM on June 29, 2016
it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'
It matters on a human being level if you get what you believe to be death threats and your colleague is all like "so?"
posted by billiebee at 9:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
It matters on a human being level if you get what you believe to be death threats and your colleague is all like "so?"
posted by billiebee at 9:42 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Aye, I don't think anyone would take 'knife him in the front' as a serious physical threat.
Especially given the context; she wasn't exactly yelling it to someone, she was telling Oven Jones in an interview that all that mattered to her was winning the next election, because if she didn't have that attitude she would just be a Tory enabler, followed by "If it’s making Jeremy better I’ll roll my sleeves up -- if that’s not going to happen, and I’ve said that to him and his staff to their faces, the day that it becomes that you are hurting us more than you are helping us, I will... I won’t knife you in the back, I’ll knife you in the front."
posted by effbot at 9:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Especially given the context; she wasn't exactly yelling it to someone, she was telling Oven Jones in an interview that all that mattered to her was winning the next election, because if she didn't have that attitude she would just be a Tory enabler, followed by "If it’s making Jeremy better I’ll roll my sleeves up -- if that’s not going to happen, and I’ve said that to him and his staff to their faces, the day that it becomes that you are hurting us more than you are helping us, I will... I won’t knife you in the back, I’ll knife you in the front."
posted by effbot at 9:50 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I didn't think there was any particular doubt about the PM's ability to deliver Article 50. He or she gets on the flight to Brussels - or just picks up the phone - and from that point on, nothing the UK can say or do will change anything. Parliament has no practical power in this matter, except to force a general election through a vote of no confidence by a suitable majority, and nobody wants that right now.
Barring major surprises - and god knows, who'll rule those out - there'll be a November election with clear manifesto promises on Article 50 delivery timing, and that'll be that. Unless there's no Parliamentary majority, in which case... oh, make the rest of it up yourselves.
posted by Devonian at 9:53 AM on June 29, 2016
Barring major surprises - and god knows, who'll rule those out - there'll be a November election with clear manifesto promises on Article 50 delivery timing, and that'll be that. Unless there's no Parliamentary majority, in which case... oh, make the rest of it up yourselves.
posted by Devonian at 9:53 AM on June 29, 2016
Another display of top-notch leadership by Corbyn.
posted by zachlipton at 10:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 10:03 AM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
> I didn't think there was any particular doubt about the PM's ability to deliver Article 50. He or she gets on the flight to Brussels - or just picks up the phone - and from that point on, nothing the UK can say or do will change anything.
Depends on whom you ask:
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:04 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Depends on whom you ask:
It is being said that the government can trigger Brexit under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, merely by sending a note to Brussels. This is wrong. Article 50 says: “Any member state may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.” The UK’s most fundamental constitutional requirement is that there must first be the approval of its parliament.That said, the EU seems so fed up that at this point I fear they'll claim it's been invoked as soon as anyone in leadership says the words "article " and "fifty" in the same sentence, regardless of context.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:04 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Labour preparing to split from Labour.
The Tories fuck the UK, nobody wants to lead it, and Labour decides right about now would be a good time to implode. Fuck the PLP.
posted by Talez at 10:08 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Tories fuck the UK, nobody wants to lead it, and Labour decides right about now would be a good time to implode. Fuck the PLP.
posted by Talez at 10:08 AM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Could it be like those glam rock bands, where different members have gone on tour with sets of ringers? So we could have Jeremy Corbyn's Labour and we could have Yvette Cooper's Labour and so forth.
posted by Grangousier at 10:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 10:09 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Rod Torfulson’s Labour featuring Herman Menderchuck
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:10 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Or one could be Labour and the other could Leybyr.
posted by Grangousier at 10:12 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 10:12 AM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Coda Tronca: Milne is not the police. He is not responsible for anyone's security arrangements so it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'
If it's a misunderstanding, you've got no point.
If it's not a misunderstanding, it matters a lot. He's the party's Executive Director of Strategy and Communications, you would at the least expect him to be a bit sensitive when dealing with a friend of an MP who's been murdered by a member of the public, has had hundreds of rape threats, and has just been threatened with physical violence. You know, just on the basis of being a decent human being, never mind holding a senior position in the party.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
If it's a misunderstanding, you've got no point.
If it's not a misunderstanding, it matters a lot. He's the party's Executive Director of Strategy and Communications, you would at the least expect him to be a bit sensitive when dealing with a friend of an MP who's been murdered by a member of the public, has had hundreds of rape threats, and has just been threatened with physical violence. You know, just on the basis of being a decent human being, never mind holding a senior position in the party.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:19 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
Karl Remarks: A plan to rescue western democracy from the ignorant masses
Universal suffrage is at the root of our problems. Some people are better than others at certain things like sports or cooking, why should it be any different in politics? We need to find a way of translating this into electoral mechanisms that retain the spirit of democracy without jeopardising us with its unpredictability. We can adopt a coefficient system where the value of your vote is multiplied by a coefficient that is proportional to your intelligence and understanding of politics. For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1. This will immediately level the playing field, ensuring favourable outcomes.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:19 AM on June 29, 2016
Universal suffrage is at the root of our problems. Some people are better than others at certain things like sports or cooking, why should it be any different in politics? We need to find a way of translating this into electoral mechanisms that retain the spirit of democracy without jeopardising us with its unpredictability. We can adopt a coefficient system where the value of your vote is multiplied by a coefficient that is proportional to your intelligence and understanding of politics. For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1. This will immediately level the playing field, ensuring favourable outcomes.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:19 AM on June 29, 2016
If it's Corbyn and Milne on bongos then it's Labour
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:21 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
If it's all the members and all the unions then it's Labour.
Do you remember when 184 Labour MPs refused to vote against the Tory benefit cuts that ruined lives and caused suicides? They did so on the grounds that their focus groups showed the public wanted benefit cuts, and so it would be wrong to oppose the Tory Welfare Reform and Work Bill.
Well, I can promise you that the 172 Labour MPs who voted to no-confidence Corbyn are exactly the same people who would not oppose welfare cuts.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:23 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Do you remember when 184 Labour MPs refused to vote against the Tory benefit cuts that ruined lives and caused suicides? They did so on the grounds that their focus groups showed the public wanted benefit cuts, and so it would be wrong to oppose the Tory Welfare Reform and Work Bill.
Well, I can promise you that the 172 Labour MPs who voted to no-confidence Corbyn are exactly the same people who would not oppose welfare cuts.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:23 AM on June 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Universal suffrage is at the root of our problems. Some people are better than others at certain things like sports or cooking, why should it be any different in politics? We need to find a way of translating this into electoral mechanisms that retain the spirit of democracy without jeopardising us with its unpredictability. We can adopt a coefficient system where the value of your vote is multiplied by a coefficient that is proportional to your intelligence and understanding of politics. For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1. This will immediately level the playing field, ensuring favourable outcomes.
I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
posted by Talez at 10:24 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
posted by Talez at 10:24 AM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
That Sara Vine email to husband Michael Gove.
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Macbeth:More here
If we should fail?
Lady Macbeth:
We fail?
But screw your courage to the sticking place,
And we'll not fail.
(Macbeth Act 1, scene 7, 59–61)
posted by Mister Bijou at 10:25 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Milne is not the police. He is not responsible for anyone's security arrangements so it doesn't matter if he says 'don't take it personally.'
In order to end violence against women and harassment against female public figures, men must be supportive. At the very least this means taking their concerns seriously.
posted by My Dad at 10:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
In order to end violence against women and harassment against female public figures, men must be supportive. At the very least this means taking their concerns seriously.
posted by My Dad at 10:29 AM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
> I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
Poe's Law applies, but I'm 99% sure this is satire.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Poe's Law applies, but I'm 99% sure this is satire.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:38 AM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm pissed at the racist xenophobes as much as any social democrat but this has got to be the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
Karl reMarks makes "occasional forays into satire", where "occasional" means "almost always", and writes with a middle-eastern angle (he's of Lebanese-Iraqi descent). Some examples (all great): How would we report the EU referendum if it were happening in the Middle East?, Unprecedented images of Western people looking just like you and me, Sound like an expert with these phrases about Middle East politics, and Interactive diagram of geopolitical relationships in the Middle East (note the instructions).
But on the not very good at politics theme, after reading too many Twitter comments today, I think a valid check would be to see if people think the reason Labour currently has 232 seats and UKIP only 1 is that Labour got 232 times as many votes and/or has 232 times as many members. If you say yes, you'll have to watch an information video and pass a simple test before being allowed to vote. Using your own pen is ok.
posted by effbot at 10:53 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Karl reMarks makes "occasional forays into satire", where "occasional" means "almost always", and writes with a middle-eastern angle (he's of Lebanese-Iraqi descent). Some examples (all great): How would we report the EU referendum if it were happening in the Middle East?, Unprecedented images of Western people looking just like you and me, Sound like an expert with these phrases about Middle East politics, and Interactive diagram of geopolitical relationships in the Middle East (note the instructions).
But on the not very good at politics theme, after reading too many Twitter comments today, I think a valid check would be to see if people think the reason Labour currently has 232 seats and UKIP only 1 is that Labour got 232 times as many votes and/or has 232 times as many members. If you say yes, you'll have to watch an information video and pass a simple test before being allowed to vote. Using your own pen is ok.
posted by effbot at 10:53 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, it certainly has a better ring to it than "Friedrich LetslookatitfromallEngels."
posted by zombieflanders at 10:53 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 10:53 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
For example, if you’re a smart, successful, liberal professional, your vote gets multiplied by 10. If you’re a poor, stupid, unemployed person, it gets multiplied by 0.1.
I don't know about the UK, but in the US it's the conservatives who call for banning certain people from voting.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't know about the UK, but in the US it's the conservatives who call for banning certain people from voting.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:57 AM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Guardian's report on Prime Minister’s Questions is worth a read:
Two dead men walking who would have rather been anywhere but in the House of Commons. One went down with some dignity. The other just went down. Not even the 40 members of the parliamentary Labour party who apparently do still have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn could be bothered to raise a cheer when he stood at the dispatch box for prime minister’s questions. He rose in almost total silence, his face twisted in anger: the dividing line between stubborn ambition and personal principle has become increasingly opaque.posted by zachlipton at 11:28 AM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Corbyn began by expressing concern about the fate of Siemens, Visa and Vodafone following last week’s referendum. David Cameron couldn’t quite believe what he was hearing. Since when had the Labour leader been the compassionate voice of big business? Slowly, Corbyn got to the point. With the UK’s credit rating having been downgraded and so so much uncertainty in the economy, jobs were being put at risk. “Yours and mine both,” quipped Dave. “But we’re not here for a share-up.”
Literally the only thing I'm enjoying about this whole situation is Cameron's I-no-longer-give-a-toss-about-politicking shtick producing occasional moments of incisive brilliance.
posted by Dysk at 11:48 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:48 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think David Cameron's glib chuckling and guffawing snideness has highlighted exactly how awful our ruling classes are in exactly the ways we always knew they were. And only served to heighten the suspicion there's going to be no repercussions in the slightest for any of them personally, and everything will carry on just as before in the Conservative party, forever, and ever and ever and ever and ever and
While we all suffocate down here in the mud they've churned up beneath their hooves.
posted by dng at 11:58 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
While we all suffocate down here in the mud they've churned up beneath their hooves.
posted by dng at 11:58 AM on June 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Guardian's report on Prime Minister’s Questions is worth a read:
It's not a report exactly, it's a regular column (The Politics Sketch) by John Crace that mixes reporting with ironic commentary.
posted by My Dad at 12:13 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not a report exactly, it's a regular column (The Politics Sketch) by John Crace that mixes reporting with ironic commentary.
posted by My Dad at 12:13 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Leave donor plans new party to replace Ukip – without Farage.
“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”
* Throws up*.
posted by adamvasco at 12:22 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”
* Throws up*.
posted by adamvasco at 12:22 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Parliamentary sketches are a very old UK newspaper tradition, and good sketch writers are highly prized.
It's also very difficult.
posted by Devonian at 12:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's also very difficult.
posted by Devonian at 12:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Literally the only thing I'm enjoying about this whole situation is Cameron's I-no-longer-give-a-toss-about-politicking shtick producing occasional moments of incisive brilliance.
Yep. It's like if he wasn't such a cunt about poor people he'd be such a witty and charming centrist that people could get behind. He appears to be so rational and sane but yet he willingly goes along with driving disabled and poor people to suicide.
posted by Talez at 12:37 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yep. It's like if he wasn't such a cunt about poor people he'd be such a witty and charming centrist that people could get behind. He appears to be so rational and sane but yet he willingly goes along with driving disabled and poor people to suicide.
posted by Talez at 12:37 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
He's actually the worst kind of person, as it turns out - he never even believed in what he was doing.
posted by Dysk at 12:45 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:45 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
This whole thing is David Cameron's fault. He might well be the most incompetent politician of this entire century, unless the rest of the century keeps going down on its inexorable way.
posted by dng at 12:46 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by dng at 12:46 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
I think David Cameron's glib chuckling and guffawing snideness has highlighted exactly how awful our ruling classes are in exactly the ways we always knew they were. And only served to heighten the suspicion there's going to be no repercussions in the slightest for any of them personally, and everything will carry on just as before in the Conservative party, forever, and ever and ever and ever and ever and
I got a similar sense watching the EU leaders press conferences too. The late-night one had an awful lot of laughter. They spent some time at one standing around joking about other countries doing as well as Luxembourg in international football tournaments. They should instead of considering whether the EU shares any responsibility for this debacle.
As the EU is rushing to take a hard line about negotiations with the UK, it is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that there is anything at all that could be wrong with the EU that could cause so many people to reject it or that it could in any way improve. Juncker specifically described what will happen as "implementation [of Brexit] not innovation." People seem to want some innovation out of the EU, and it's digging in its heels more than ever. At another point, Juncker refused to accept the premise that immigration was a primary concern for Leave voters and instead blamed Brussels-bashers.
When a reporter responds to that by asking basically "ok, but what do you plan to do about stuff like migration and the economy that people are so worried about?," Tusk was initially pretty much speechless, saying it would take two days to explain how the EU can tackle these issues. The President of the European Council ought to have a better answer at hand to a question that was fundamental to the Leave campaign.
posted by zachlipton at 12:51 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I got a similar sense watching the EU leaders press conferences too. The late-night one had an awful lot of laughter. They spent some time at one standing around joking about other countries doing as well as Luxembourg in international football tournaments. They should instead of considering whether the EU shares any responsibility for this debacle.
As the EU is rushing to take a hard line about negotiations with the UK, it is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that there is anything at all that could be wrong with the EU that could cause so many people to reject it or that it could in any way improve. Juncker specifically described what will happen as "implementation [of Brexit] not innovation." People seem to want some innovation out of the EU, and it's digging in its heels more than ever. At another point, Juncker refused to accept the premise that immigration was a primary concern for Leave voters and instead blamed Brussels-bashers.
When a reporter responds to that by asking basically "ok, but what do you plan to do about stuff like migration and the economy that people are so worried about?," Tusk was initially pretty much speechless, saying it would take two days to explain how the EU can tackle these issues. The President of the European Council ought to have a better answer at hand to a question that was fundamental to the Leave campaign.
posted by zachlipton at 12:51 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
The EU no longer have to concern themselves with whatever stuff people in the UK are worried about.
...and suddenly we're all accepting and taking it as read that of course immigration needs tackling? Have the racists of UKIP and the xenophobes of Leave really shifted the Overton window that m? Deal with the issues that cause people to blame immigration, don't accept the logic that immigration is cause for concern in itself.
posted by Dysk at 12:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
...and suddenly we're all accepting and taking it as read that of course immigration needs tackling? Have the racists of UKIP and the xenophobes of Leave really shifted the Overton window that m? Deal with the issues that cause people to blame immigration, don't accept the logic that immigration is cause for concern in itself.
posted by Dysk at 12:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [35 favorites]
what is right about the European project: just enough good manners to bring very different peoples together in a single space and make polite their passions.
posted by infini at 1:05 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:05 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh certainly, and I'm not arguing by any means that the EU should abandon free movement or cater to racists. But it's not just the UK; there are plenty of folks riled up in France and Holland now too. Just promising more of the same from the EU is not going to satisfy them, nor will it satisfy critics from the left. The EU needs an answer to existential threats to its existence, and it needs an answer to the people who see it as responsible for the problems in their lives. There are answers to that, ones the Remain campaign wasn't strong enough at selling.
When millions of people are loudly proclaiming that they see EU membership as a bad thing, yes, I think the EU should consider why and have a response to counter that.
posted by zachlipton at 1:10 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
When millions of people are loudly proclaiming that they see EU membership as a bad thing, yes, I think the EU should consider why and have a response to counter that.
posted by zachlipton at 1:10 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Shame" called in Lords as UKIP bench call for EU nationals to be used as hostages in discussions with Brussels
...and then the Government benches agree!
What exactly were you looking for from the EU leadership?
posted by infini at 1:17 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
...and then the Government benches agree!
What exactly were you looking for from the EU leadership?
posted by infini at 1:17 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ugh, Malcolm Pearson. Somehow, I had managed to forget he was in the Lords.
posted by skybluepink at 1:22 PM on June 29, 2016
posted by skybluepink at 1:22 PM on June 29, 2016
Yeah, the problem is that not enough economic growth is being captured and redistributed to the poorer deciles. And a lot of the Left has being saying that the solution is to shrink the economy (which ending free trade certainly will), or even worse, keep free trade but ending the free movement of labor within that free market. It just *boggles* me when the supposed internationalists want to lock labor into the tiny little boxes of one country. If the problem is downward pressure on wages, then increase the minimum wage. Hell, fight for minimum income.
And of course the biggest problem is that quite often it is the people who would benefit from these changes that hate them worst. Going by the election maps I looked at, a whole lot of the people that are screaming that Polish people are taking their jobs and voted Leave have been voting for years for the people who have been slowly destroying that redistribution. And a whole lot of them have been screaming about chavs or foreigners living on state money and demanding that benefits be reduced. Until you convince an actual voting majority of your country of the value of socialism, there just isn't going to be progress.
And sadly, a lot of the cause seems to be that people will hurt themselves, just as long as they can be sure the people that aren't of their tribe are hurt worse.
posted by tavella at 1:25 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
And of course the biggest problem is that quite often it is the people who would benefit from these changes that hate them worst. Going by the election maps I looked at, a whole lot of the people that are screaming that Polish people are taking their jobs and voted Leave have been voting for years for the people who have been slowly destroying that redistribution. And a whole lot of them have been screaming about chavs or foreigners living on state money and demanding that benefits be reduced. Until you convince an actual voting majority of your country of the value of socialism, there just isn't going to be progress.
And sadly, a lot of the cause seems to be that people will hurt themselves, just as long as they can be sure the people that aren't of their tribe are hurt worse.
posted by tavella at 1:25 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Is Globalization Really Fueling Populism?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:28 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:28 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sounds like they're going with Angela Eagle who voted for the Iraq war and against Chilcot. These are indeed the genius strategists who can lead Labour to victory!
posted by Abiezer at 1:49 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 1:49 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This whole thing is David Cameron's fault. He might well be the most incompetent politician of this entire century, unless the rest of the century keeps going down on its inexorable way.
After the vote, there was this bit making the rounds about how clever he really was, to stick it to Boris or whomever by resigning, and making them the ones to implement this mess that they supposedly wanted. And I thought that sounded reasonable. Maybe there was something to it.
But yesterday I read that when this was all being set up, Nicola Sturgeon had called on Call Me Dave to require the approval of all regions in order for the referendum to pass. And then I realized that Cameron truly was a dolt. He could have given the euroskeptics the referendum they wanted, and by putting Sturgeon's requirements in place, guaranteed his own success. Cameron would have made it impossible for the euroskeptics to win, and would have likely shut up that debate for years.
To me it was a no-brainer. Which Dave didn't have the brains to latch onto. Yikes.
Granted, there was likely more to it than just this, but still.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:53 PM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
After the vote, there was this bit making the rounds about how clever he really was, to stick it to Boris or whomever by resigning, and making them the ones to implement this mess that they supposedly wanted. And I thought that sounded reasonable. Maybe there was something to it.
But yesterday I read that when this was all being set up, Nicola Sturgeon had called on Call Me Dave to require the approval of all regions in order for the referendum to pass. And then I realized that Cameron truly was a dolt. He could have given the euroskeptics the referendum they wanted, and by putting Sturgeon's requirements in place, guaranteed his own success. Cameron would have made it impossible for the euroskeptics to win, and would have likely shut up that debate for years.
To me it was a no-brainer. Which Dave didn't have the brains to latch onto. Yikes.
Granted, there was likely more to it than just this, but still.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:53 PM on June 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
Pretty sure Eagle's the stalking horse, but God, I hope Wallasey deselects her anyway.
posted by skybluepink at 1:54 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 1:54 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
The conservatives in Parliament have been one hundred percent behind the message of "It's the will of the people, the next cabinet will carry out that will".
My hope is that they're doing so because they expect Boris in the next cabinet will have to go "Well on reflection, I feel that after, defining all the latin mumble steps, that are required latin mumble and having now, set a clear path, we need to agree, as a latin mumble country to press the button latin mumble."
In which case, the vote goes up again, remain wins and everyone can blame Boris for absolutely everything, saving Cameron some face and the board is generally reset.
I'm holding onto that hope so dearly that I fear I may crush it.
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:10 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
My hope is that they're doing so because they expect Boris in the next cabinet will have to go "Well on reflection, I feel that after, defining all the latin mumble steps, that are required latin mumble and having now, set a clear path, we need to agree, as a latin mumble country to press the button latin mumble."
In which case, the vote goes up again, remain wins and everyone can blame Boris for absolutely everything, saving Cameron some face and the board is generally reset.
I'm holding onto that hope so dearly that I fear I may crush it.
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:10 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
All sides of Remain should also be laying the rhetorical groundwork to undermine the legitimacy of a future PM invoking Article 50 without a confidence vote in Parliament.
If that happens, the UK (or Greater England or whatever) will effectively be an elective dictatorship as the PM will just have demonstrated that they can get away with making a major decision without, you know, getting a law passed.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:19 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
If that happens, the UK (or Greater England or whatever) will effectively be an elective dictatorship as the PM will just have demonstrated that they can get away with making a major decision without, you know, getting a law passed.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:19 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also kind of hope that someone is quietly looking into the reserve powers of the Crown. Just in case.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:23 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Turn it off and on again.
posted by vbfg at 2:26 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 2:26 PM on June 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't want to be stuck on this island with a load of people who think they're special
posted by vbfg at 2:31 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 2:31 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I also kind of hope that someone is quietly looking into the reserve powers of the Crown. Just in case.
Just in case what?
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:35 PM on June 29, 2016
Just in case what?
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:35 PM on June 29, 2016
Jamie Reid's letter.
Wow. Just wow.
If Labour politicos could be as articulate all the time as they are when they're telling Corbyn to fuck off I might die on a barricade for them.
posted by Grangousier at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wow. Just wow.
If Labour politicos could be as articulate all the time as they are when they're telling Corbyn to fuck off I might die on a barricade for them.
posted by Grangousier at 3:06 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Shame" called in Lords as UKIP bench call for EU nationals to be used as hostages in discussions with Brussels
Dear fucking god.
I literally have no words for this perambulatory ordure.
Using people as hostages?
Couldn't they even try to be human beings? Pretend to walk upright?
They wave the fucking flag in our faces, but don't understand the first thing about being British.
posted by Grangousier at 3:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Dear fucking god.
I literally have no words for this perambulatory ordure.
Using people as hostages?
Couldn't they even try to be human beings? Pretend to walk upright?
They wave the fucking flag in our faces, but don't understand the first thing about being British.
posted by Grangousier at 3:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just in case what?
Constitutionally that is for the Queen to decide. But if, say, it became clear that a good chunk of the Leave voters were misled, deceived or thought they were casting meaningless protest votes; and a far-right PM is attempting to make major decisions without the confidence of Parliament?
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:26 PM on June 29, 2016
Constitutionally that is for the Queen to decide. But if, say, it became clear that a good chunk of the Leave voters were misled, deceived or thought they were casting meaningless protest votes; and a far-right PM is attempting to make major decisions without the confidence of Parliament?
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:26 PM on June 29, 2016
Yeah no. The Queen can intervene in politics only if she agrees to have her head chopped off. That's what we agreed in the Glorious Revolution and that's how it goes. Sorry but even in the case of Brexit we can't compromise that important constitutional principle.
posted by Mocata at 3:33 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 3:33 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well, she'd obviously quickly abdicate so King Charles could partake in that particular ceremonial duty, as is traditional.
posted by dng at 3:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by dng at 3:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Crown, not the Queen. The Queen embodies the Crown, but can't impose her whim on it.
99% of the time it works, we're just living through the other 1%.
posted by Grangousier at 3:37 PM on June 29, 2016
99% of the time it works, we're just living through the other 1%.
posted by Grangousier at 3:37 PM on June 29, 2016
Charles would probably not be King Charles incidentally.
King Charles's have not been very successful, it's expected that he would use a different name when he becomes king.
Possibly his middle name. Arthur.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
King Charles's have not been very successful, it's expected that he would use a different name when he becomes king.
Possibly his middle name. Arthur.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Talking of Charles, cutting off heads, and monumentally stupid decisions, did you know there is still an Earl of Strafford?
posted by Emma May Smith at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Emma May Smith at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Let's face it, he can't get out of being Charles III now. We all expect it. It's a case of nomenclature is destiny.
posted by Grangousier at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 3:45 PM on June 29, 2016
It is like I'm playing poker and I'm out of the hand, but my best friend is still in. Everyone at the table can see he's got nothing, but he won't fold. That's how I feel.
posted by humanfont at 3:46 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 3:46 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
If he calls himself King Arthur after this there'll only be his fucking plants that don't laugh at him.
posted by vbfg at 3:48 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 3:48 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
They do anyway. Plant laughter is difficulty to detect. Amazingly ironic, plants.
posted by Grangousier at 3:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Woo, I'm a bargaining chip! Maybe someone will at least notice that I fucking exist now...
posted by Dysk at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:55 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pfft. Charles III is much cooler than George VII. FFS.
posted by Grangousier at 3:57 PM on June 29, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 3:57 PM on June 29, 2016
But VII is IV more than III. QED.
posted by chimaera at 3:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chimaera at 3:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Who wouldn't be a raffish Stuart rather than a tedious Hanover?
posted by Grangousier at 3:59 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:59 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Royalty is multidimensional. It's not just about numbers.
posted by Grangousier at 4:00 PM on June 29, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 4:00 PM on June 29, 2016
can't you call him chuck?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:08 PM on June 29, 2016
posted by pyramid termite at 4:08 PM on June 29, 2016
Charles reaches for the crown. The Archbishop looks unsure.-- Mike Bartlett, King Charles III
Glances at William. Then gives the crown to Charles.
A moment.
CHARLES.
It is much heavier than I thought
He looks at William
And from the side, bejeweled, it looks so rich
But turn it thus, and this is what you see
Nothing.
posted by zachlipton at 4:09 PM on June 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes. The whole thing is unravelling.
I quite like history. In its place. In books.
In my face, not so much.
posted by Grangousier at 4:11 PM on June 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
I quite like history. In its place. In books.
In my face, not so much.
posted by Grangousier at 4:11 PM on June 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
Royalty is multidimensional.
So Charles 3d then?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
So Charles 3d then?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:12 PM on June 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Prob. mentioned before, but: The UN declares the UK’s austerity policies in breach of international human rights obligations. Poss. Can't be mentioned too often. Fuckers.
posted by Grangousier at 4:15 PM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 4:15 PM on June 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
I like to think about the last of the Tudors, Elizabeth, as she lay dying and all around her the great crisis of succession was underway. After she died, her ring was taken from her finger and sent as fast as possible up to Scotland, to prove to James VI that he had succeeded. He hurried to London, and so saved England from chaos.
Don't know why I like this story quite so much at the moment, but there we go.
I moved to Scotland at Christmas, having lived in England - my England - for half a century.
It hit me this evening that I can never go back to the England I left, because it is no longer there.
posted by Devonian at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Don't know why I like this story quite so much at the moment, but there we go.
I moved to Scotland at Christmas, having lived in England - my England - for half a century.
It hit me this evening that I can never go back to the England I left, because it is no longer there.
posted by Devonian at 4:17 PM on June 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Kind of. Give it a few weeks. I think we need to work things out.
Months maybe.
We're much better at sorting shit out than our reputation would give the impression.
posted by Grangousier at 4:21 PM on June 29, 2016
Months maybe.
We're much better at sorting shit out than our reputation would give the impression.
posted by Grangousier at 4:21 PM on June 29, 2016
I like to think about the last of the Tudors, Elizabeth, as she lay dying and all around her the great crisis of succession was underway. After she died, her ring was taken from her finger and sent as fast as possible up to Scotland, to prove to James VI that he had succeeded. He hurried to London, and so saved England from chaos.
There wasn't really a crisis on the death of Elizabeth. Although the succession had been a difficult issue in earlier years, by the time Elizabeth died it was already settled. The Privy Council knew exactly what it would do and bore it through. There was no real challenger to James and he was well accepted in England. Indeed, he didn't even hurry, taking a whole month to reach London.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:34 PM on June 29, 2016
There wasn't really a crisis on the death of Elizabeth. Although the succession had been a difficult issue in earlier years, by the time Elizabeth died it was already settled. The Privy Council knew exactly what it would do and bore it through. There was no real challenger to James and he was well accepted in England. Indeed, he didn't even hurry, taking a whole month to reach London.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:34 PM on June 29, 2016
Emma May Smith: "Indeed, he didn't even hurry, taking a whole month to reach London."
Well, you know, National Rail.
posted by Bugbread at 4:39 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, you know, National Rail.
posted by Bugbread at 4:39 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah no. The Queen can intervene in politics only if she agrees to have her head chopped off. That's what we agreed in the Glorious Revolution and that's how it goes. Sorry but even in the case of Brexit we can't compromise that important constitutional principle.
Point taken, obviously it would be a last resort and she would be risking the monarchy itself. I don't think it's entirely the case however that the monarch has not been involved in politics since 1688. More like the early 19thC?
That wouldn't be the oldest precedent broken this month; by my count that hono(u)r goes to the idea of a united kingdom itself....
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Point taken, obviously it would be a last resort and she would be risking the monarchy itself. I don't think it's entirely the case however that the monarch has not been involved in politics since 1688. More like the early 19thC?
That wouldn't be the oldest precedent broken this month; by my count that hono(u)r goes to the idea of a united kingdom itself....
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
What Brexit Means For British Food
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh, foo. Bloody historians, ruining a perfectly good myth.
They do that, you know. Them and their fancy facts.
James most certainly did NOT go down by the East Coast train line, though. He'dve got as far as Peterborough and fled back north in horror.
posted by Devonian at 4:55 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
They do that, you know. Them and their fancy facts.
James most certainly did NOT go down by the East Coast train line, though. He'dve got as far as Peterborough and fled back north in horror.
posted by Devonian at 4:55 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh, foo. Bloody historians, ruining a perfectly good myth.
I think we've had enough of experts.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think we've had enough of experts.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
As I understand it the Queen can't intervene because doing so would make the rest of the world think that the British government and entire political landscape is a fucking shambles, and God forbid anyone gets that impression!
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 4:58 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
I don't think it's entirely the case however that the monarch has not been involved in politics since 1688. More like the early 19thC?
/r/AskHistorians: When was the last time a British monarch got involved in politics in a meaningful way?
posted by effbot at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
/r/AskHistorians: When was the last time a British monarch got involved in politics in a meaningful way?
posted by effbot at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Woo, I'm a bargaining chip! Maybe someone will at least notice that I fucking exist now...
There is no "us" and "them", unless you are talking about the narrow minority of elites that are trying to run the show.
posted by My Dad at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2016
There is no "us" and "them", unless you are talking about the narrow minority of elites that are trying to run the show.
posted by My Dad at 4:59 PM on June 29, 2016
Well, you know, National Rail.
I think what you're implying is that Rail travel in the Uk has or had a reputation of inefficiency, comically juxtaposing the travel speeds of 1603 with the poor performance (perceived or actual) of the British state owned rail system.
However that nationalised rail system was called British Rail, and was privatised badly in the mid 90's whereupon it became Railtrack plus a number of privately franchised train operating companies (TOCs) and rolling stock lease companies (ROSCOs). Railtrack as an entity was responsible for major lapses in maintenance causing significant loss of life and was subsequently re nationalised as Network Rail, a wholly government owned, not for dividend company selling rail access to the same train operators.
Those private franchised operators banded together to form ATOC the association of train operators, providing (primarily)rail revenue allocation and settlement services between Train Operating Companies. They trade under the brand National Rail and are in this way almost wholly unresponsible for actual operating railway performance.
So bearing all that in mind I think you need to clarify precisely how you believe an association body responsible for ticketing, marketing and revenue distribution might be responsible for the journey times of monarchs in the 17th century. Or do I need to take this to MeTa!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:04 PM on June 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think what you're implying is that Rail travel in the Uk has or had a reputation of inefficiency, comically juxtaposing the travel speeds of 1603 with the poor performance (perceived or actual) of the British state owned rail system.
However that nationalised rail system was called British Rail, and was privatised badly in the mid 90's whereupon it became Railtrack plus a number of privately franchised train operating companies (TOCs) and rolling stock lease companies (ROSCOs). Railtrack as an entity was responsible for major lapses in maintenance causing significant loss of life and was subsequently re nationalised as Network Rail, a wholly government owned, not for dividend company selling rail access to the same train operators.
Those private franchised operators banded together to form ATOC the association of train operators, providing (primarily)rail revenue allocation and settlement services between Train Operating Companies. They trade under the brand National Rail and are in this way almost wholly unresponsible for actual operating railway performance.
So bearing all that in mind I think you need to clarify precisely how you believe an association body responsible for ticketing, marketing and revenue distribution might be responsible for the journey times of monarchs in the 17th century. Or do I need to take this to MeTa!
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:04 PM on June 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
What Brexit Means For British Food
I don't think this is a very good article. The revolution in food and diet was happening long before the UK joined the EEC. Really it took place in the 1950s for the middle class, and slowly filtered down from there. The dependence on the EU for food is a consequence of CAP and associated tariffs, which might well change radically were the UK to leave the EU. Food could well become cheaper in the UK much like it did after the railways opened up the US west to export markets. Farming would naturally be hit, as it was then.
However, the UK's dependence on imported food is very real. As it has been for at least 150 years. In many ways the goal of self-sufficiency that the CAP seeks to fulfill is a nonsense in the UK. We're not and can't be.
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:22 PM on June 29, 2016
I don't think this is a very good article. The revolution in food and diet was happening long before the UK joined the EEC. Really it took place in the 1950s for the middle class, and slowly filtered down from there. The dependence on the EU for food is a consequence of CAP and associated tariffs, which might well change radically were the UK to leave the EU. Food could well become cheaper in the UK much like it did after the railways opened up the US west to export markets. Farming would naturally be hit, as it was then.
However, the UK's dependence on imported food is very real. As it has been for at least 150 years. In many ways the goal of self-sufficiency that the CAP seeks to fulfill is a nonsense in the UK. We're not and can't be.
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:22 PM on June 29, 2016
ESTRAGON: Well, shall we Leave?
VLADIMIR: Yes, let's Leave.
(They do not send the Article 50 Notification.)
-- David Allen Green
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
VLADIMIR: Yes, let's Leave.
(They do not send the Article 50 Notification.)
-- David Allen Green
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [25 favorites]
Repeal the Corn Laws, what!
posted by Devonian at 5:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Devonian at 5:42 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just this guy, y'know: "However that nationalised rail system was called British Rail."
Ah. I apologize for mislabeling the rail system that was operating in 1603.
...Hold on a minute.
Actually, my first draft used "British Rail", but I was worried someone would take offense at the anachronism. Confronted with this page, I just went with National Rail.
posted by Bugbread at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ah. I apologize for mislabeling the rail system that was operating in 1603.
...Hold on a minute.
Actually, my first draft used "British Rail", but I was worried someone would take offense at the anachronism. Confronted with this page, I just went with National Rail.
posted by Bugbread at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
To continue the derail, here's more on Britain's railway system from LRB (5 May 2016).
posted by MetalFingerz at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MetalFingerz at 5:47 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Repeal the Corn Laws, what!
Well, I mean, if you want to have a serious discussion about it, then maybe that's a good point. The Corn Laws aren't just some stuffy old bit of history but a very relevant lesson. Are EU tariffs like a modern Corn Law? I don't really know, but you could easily make a case that they benefit wealthier landowners over poorer consumers. And if we own that neither self-sufficiency, nor preservation of traditional practices and communities, nor even the conservation of nature, are reasonable goals of farming subsidy in the UK, then the justification for the CAP and its tariffs are...what?
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, I mean, if you want to have a serious discussion about it, then maybe that's a good point. The Corn Laws aren't just some stuffy old bit of history but a very relevant lesson. Are EU tariffs like a modern Corn Law? I don't really know, but you could easily make a case that they benefit wealthier landowners over poorer consumers. And if we own that neither self-sufficiency, nor preservation of traditional practices and communities, nor even the conservation of nature, are reasonable goals of farming subsidy in the UK, then the justification for the CAP and its tariffs are...what?
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:50 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can tell you when it's not the right time to hold your breath and pout like a toddler having a temper tantrum: when there's even the slimmest possibility of someone like Donald Fucking Trump being elected to be POTUS.
Also maybe not the best time to keep pointing at your CV and hoping the disaffected rally to it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on June 29, 2016
Also maybe not the best time to keep pointing at your CV and hoping the disaffected rally to it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on June 29, 2016
Is there a chance we can just put the people who run Old Friends Senior Dog Sanctuary in charge? Of everything, everywhere?
posted by maxwelton at 5:54 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 5:54 PM on June 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, I mean, if you want to have a serious discussion about it, then maybe that's a good point.
best bluff-calling ever
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:01 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
best bluff-calling ever
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:01 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Wow. Just wow.
The mix of congratulations and completely unhinged attacks by Corbynistas in his feed is quite something.
posted by effbot at 6:02 PM on June 29, 2016
The mix of congratulations and completely unhinged attacks by Corbynistas in his feed is quite something.
posted by effbot at 6:02 PM on June 29, 2016
(I shouldn't mention that the ticketing system is now so mucked up that I've had to make my last two Lon-Edi journeys without a ticket, convincing the inspector of my bona fides both times by showing him the booking email on my phone.
I further shouldn't mention that emails are very easy to fake.)
As for the Corn Laws - they really are an interesting and pertinent case study. And if we're looking at the geopolitics of food, we can also factor in the Irish Famine. I'm for free trade in a regulated system, but not like CAP (which I think is an over-regulated system which is free trade in name only), and I'm generally in favour of the way the EU uses regulations in trade to enforce standards outside its direct jurisdiction. I'm also against TTIP enforcing standards outside any direct jurisdiction - this stuff works if you have democratic accountability and an informed electorate, and here we run into the buffers.
Which is why, in the end, I am so pro-EU, because it is a working model of how to manage common aims across disparate cultures. Not all that well, often, and the cultures aren't that different, and the common aims aren't well communicated, but it is a model and it does work and really what are the alternatives?
posted by Devonian at 6:07 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I further shouldn't mention that emails are very easy to fake.)
As for the Corn Laws - they really are an interesting and pertinent case study. And if we're looking at the geopolitics of food, we can also factor in the Irish Famine. I'm for free trade in a regulated system, but not like CAP (which I think is an over-regulated system which is free trade in name only), and I'm generally in favour of the way the EU uses regulations in trade to enforce standards outside its direct jurisdiction. I'm also against TTIP enforcing standards outside any direct jurisdiction - this stuff works if you have democratic accountability and an informed electorate, and here we run into the buffers.
Which is why, in the end, I am so pro-EU, because it is a working model of how to manage common aims across disparate cultures. Not all that well, often, and the cultures aren't that different, and the common aims aren't well communicated, but it is a model and it does work and really what are the alternatives?
posted by Devonian at 6:07 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is no "us" and "them", unless you are talking about the narrow minority of elites that are trying to run the show.
Er, how on earth does this relate to what you were quoting? I was pointing out the the current situation is uniquely shit for immigrants (particularly EU immigrants) and everyone seems to not give a shit, while being super concerned about everyone else, including the people who put us in this mess.
posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Er, how on earth does this relate to what you were quoting? I was pointing out the the current situation is uniquely shit for immigrants (particularly EU immigrants) and everyone seems to not give a shit, while being super concerned about everyone else, including the people who put us in this mess.
posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on June 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Er, how on earth does this relate to what you were quoting?
I was agreeing with you... Sorry for the lack of context. I have noticed numerous times in this thread when folks, some of whom may not even live in the UK, speak of immigrants and the "other" when you are right here. But there is no difference between any of us at all. You could say that I am totally in favour of free movement, combined with a living wage.
Anyway, Ken Loach captured the sheer brutality of labour mobility in Britain's in the movie It's a Free World.
posted by My Dad at 6:31 PM on June 29, 2016
I was agreeing with you... Sorry for the lack of context. I have noticed numerous times in this thread when folks, some of whom may not even live in the UK, speak of immigrants and the "other" when you are right here. But there is no difference between any of us at all. You could say that I am totally in favour of free movement, combined with a living wage.
Anyway, Ken Loach captured the sheer brutality of labour mobility in Britain's in the movie It's a Free World.
posted by My Dad at 6:31 PM on June 29, 2016
Couldn't they even try to be human beings? Pretend to walk upright?
Judging from the transcript, I suspect they're some kind of space aliens, doing their best to appear human but with rather limited reference material.
posted by effbot at 6:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Judging from the transcript, I suspect they're some kind of space aliens, doing their best to appear human but with rather limited reference material.
posted by effbot at 6:35 PM on June 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Eagle to mount Labour challenge to Corbyn
Candidate shows strong leadership skills, ability to dismember foes with mighty talons and beak
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Candidate shows strong leadership skills, ability to dismember foes with mighty talons and beak
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
Reserve powers of the Crown -- careful, now.
Word is, according to the Queen's biographer Robert Lacey, is that she is a Brexiteer, asking dinner companions "Give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe."
Now, I have no idea how true that is, but it doesn't strike me as palpably untrue. YMMV.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:16 PM on June 29, 2016
Word is, according to the Queen's biographer Robert Lacey, is that she is a Brexiteer, asking dinner companions "Give me three good reasons why Britain should be part of Europe."
Now, I have no idea how true that is, but it doesn't strike me as palpably untrue. YMMV.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:16 PM on June 29, 2016
Scotland, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar. There ya go Ma'am
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:36 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:36 PM on June 29, 2016 [14 favorites]
Interesting Graun piece by Diane Abbott on the PLP vs Labour Party membership here.
On my first reading I mistakenly thought she'd said something like 'the PLP fear not that Corbyn will lose the General Election but that he will win it.'
Turns out on reread that she meant the leadership election, not the general.
Nevertheless, the idea has stuck with me. I genuinely now wonder whether significant elements in the PLP do actually do fear a potential Corbyn-led government, enough to shaft him.
Saying 'you can't win, you can't win' over and over again is all very well but right now the only reason I can see that he can't win is that his own colleagues keep saying so. By doing so they cause it to be the case but that doesn't get us any further in understanding.
Also - and this is a whole different thing - imagine an Abbott-led LP.
posted by motty at 9:02 PM on June 29, 2016
On my first reading I mistakenly thought she'd said something like 'the PLP fear not that Corbyn will lose the General Election but that he will win it.'
Turns out on reread that she meant the leadership election, not the general.
Nevertheless, the idea has stuck with me. I genuinely now wonder whether significant elements in the PLP do actually do fear a potential Corbyn-led government, enough to shaft him.
Saying 'you can't win, you can't win' over and over again is all very well but right now the only reason I can see that he can't win is that his own colleagues keep saying so. By doing so they cause it to be the case but that doesn't get us any further in understanding.
Also - and this is a whole different thing - imagine an Abbott-led LP.
posted by motty at 9:02 PM on June 29, 2016
motty, would an Abbott led LP be quite so terrible? I haven't seen much of her after appearances on This Week (don't live in the UK anymore) but she seems to have attracted a lot of negative publicity of late.
Arguably, she is no worse than many of the other likely candidates.
Not convinced if this is years of being conditioned by politicians shifting towards the centre or not, but I have a personal impression that many who consider Corbyn unelectable do so by virtue of his hard left history and stance on many issues.
posted by geminus at 9:25 PM on June 29, 2016
Arguably, she is no worse than many of the other likely candidates.
Not convinced if this is years of being conditioned by politicians shifting towards the centre or not, but I have a personal impression that many who consider Corbyn unelectable do so by virtue of his hard left history and stance on many issues.
posted by geminus at 9:25 PM on June 29, 2016
imagine an Abbott-led LP
We had one of those, fortunately the Libs turfed him.
Oh wait ...
posted by Autumn Leaf at 11:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
We had one of those, fortunately the Libs turfed him.
Oh wait ...
posted by Autumn Leaf at 11:16 PM on June 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sooo they’re still banging on about restricting migration from the EU only to those with a job, and only 70% of those with a job, and they hope they can get away with it as a valid "interpretation" of the principle of freedom of movement within the single market - Boris Johnson and Theresa May aim to cut migration and stay in single market - and by the way the article has a terrible way of explaining it because it uses language that legitimizes the idea and doesn’t even challenge the inconsistencies and for instance here where it says:
"One danger of adopting an Australian-style, points-based, immigration system is that if a work visa regime is imposed on EU countries they are likely to retaliate and impose their own visa regime on Britons wanting to live and work on the continent."
No what it should say instead of using loaded ugly aggressive words like "retaliate" is "reciprocate", there’s a principle of reciprocity in the single market, quite a big difference from "retaliation".
It also fails to clarify that this plan would be even more demanding of special treatment than what the UK was already granted in the February deal so it’s not that there is a "a danger of adopting" this model it’s that it is highly unlikely to be accepted, as once again everyone’s been reminded just yesterday - UK cannot have 'single market a la carte', say EU leaders - 'Leaders made it crystal clear that access to the single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms - including freedom of movement'. Who knows, that might all change, if everything is renegotiated from scratch who knows what that will lead to, but it’s baffling how that’s not even referenced in the Guardian article.
Some of the comments on Twitter linking to the article:
"One danger of adopting an Australian-style, points-based, immigration system is that if a work visa regime is imposed on EU countries they are likely to retaliate and impose their own visa regime on Britons wanting to live and work on the continent."
No what it should say instead of using loaded ugly aggressive words like "retaliate" is "reciprocate", there’s a principle of reciprocity in the single market, quite a big difference from "retaliation".
It also fails to clarify that this plan would be even more demanding of special treatment than what the UK was already granted in the February deal so it’s not that there is a "a danger of adopting" this model it’s that it is highly unlikely to be accepted, as once again everyone’s been reminded just yesterday - UK cannot have 'single market a la carte', say EU leaders - 'Leaders made it crystal clear that access to the single market requires acceptance of all four freedoms - including freedom of movement'. Who knows, that might all change, if everything is renegotiated from scratch who knows what that will lead to, but it’s baffling how that’s not even referenced in the Guardian article.
Some of the comments on Twitter linking to the article:
Apparently this is the "cake and eating it" scenario our potential new leaders think they can get...posted by bitteschoen at 12:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
So UK subjects would get full access to EU but not vice versa? May I laugh how delusional!
Boris Johnson and Theresa May aim to cut migration and stay in single market, defy gravity and breed unicorns
Boris Johnson in full having-cake-and-eating-it-too mode, reality need not apply
Good luck with that !!!
They will also ensure English success in the Euros, Eurovision and ensure a unicorn for every English child...
#Tories can't be more cynical: They now want access to single market without free movement of EU workers
Can anyone make sense out of this? Reciprocity would mean British pensioners barred from Spain, right?
How cynical
Really hope we don't lose free movement of people across Europe.
>: But I can see where it might have some benefits in terms of the EU being able to push forward more progressive directives without the UK whining.
What worries me, as a (dual) citizen of another EU country who someday wants to live in a different EU country, is that the EU may see this as a reproach of the "European Project" and, thus, dial back some of the more progressive goals. Looking at this from afar—I don't live in my other country of citizenship—I don't know how realistic this is. A lot of the news articles I've been reading, especially as of late, have seemed to dance around this point.
I feel like what the EU is doing is a good thing but the messaging has been lost. OTOH, it's really, really simple to do bumper sticker politics (The EU is coming for your high-watt tea kettle; VOTE UKIP!) and inversely difficult to explain, in long paragraphs, why no that's not what is really meant and here's how it benefits you. (Not to say that the EU are perfect beings. It is run by fallible humans, after all. But I also don't ascribe either malice or stupidity to their motives and I genuinely believe that most humans are good and are trying to do well.)
posted by fireoyster at 12:32 AM on June 30, 2016
What worries me, as a (dual) citizen of another EU country who someday wants to live in a different EU country, is that the EU may see this as a reproach of the "European Project" and, thus, dial back some of the more progressive goals. Looking at this from afar—I don't live in my other country of citizenship—I don't know how realistic this is. A lot of the news articles I've been reading, especially as of late, have seemed to dance around this point.
I feel like what the EU is doing is a good thing but the messaging has been lost. OTOH, it's really, really simple to do bumper sticker politics (The EU is coming for your high-watt tea kettle; VOTE UKIP!) and inversely difficult to explain, in long paragraphs, why no that's not what is really meant and here's how it benefits you. (Not to say that the EU are perfect beings. It is run by fallible humans, after all. But I also don't ascribe either malice or stupidity to their motives and I genuinely believe that most humans are good and are trying to do well.)
posted by fireoyster at 12:32 AM on June 30, 2016
Winterhill, that's the flicker of hope I'm clinging to. No idea how realistic it is, but it doesn't seem like anyone else has a better idea right now....
posted by Helga-woo at 12:35 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Helga-woo at 12:35 AM on June 30, 2016
You can't put the Queen in charge she'd stack the front benches with corgis what the hell am i saying? by all means put the queen in charge
posted by um at 12:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by um at 12:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Why giving notice of withdrawal from the EU requires act of parliament (warning: worked for me, but might be paywalled for some)
David Allen Green/Jack of Kent seems to regard Pannick quite highly
posted by geminus at 1:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
David Allen Green/Jack of Kent seems to regard Pannick quite highly
posted by geminus at 1:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a silly question from me. If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?
Not a silly question at all. Is there a "chance"? The truth is that nobody knows. So much depends on factors that may not even be known at this time that it's unpredictable. It's a giant, massive and possibly irreversible economic/political/social experiment. In the end, the UK may or may not have a chance to be better off than as a member of the EU. An entire country (OK, actually just half of it) made a huge gamble on its future, mostly based on lies and uncertainties and without a concrete plan.
But it'll be totally worth it!
Meanwhile the rest of Europe is gawking in anticipation to see whether it'll be the trainwreck in slow-motion predicted by the experts or something else.
posted by sour cream at 1:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not a silly question at all. Is there a "chance"? The truth is that nobody knows. So much depends on factors that may not even be known at this time that it's unpredictable. It's a giant, massive and possibly irreversible economic/political/social experiment. In the end, the UK may or may not have a chance to be better off than as a member of the EU. An entire country (OK, actually just half of it) made a huge gamble on its future, mostly based on lies and uncertainties and without a concrete plan.
But it'll be totally worth it!
Meanwhile the rest of Europe is gawking in anticipation to see whether it'll be the trainwreck in slow-motion predicted by the experts or something else.
posted by sour cream at 1:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Accuracy is snake oil for pussies":- on the charms of Dominic Cummings - vote leave's campaign director.
posted by rongorongo at 1:18 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 1:18 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why giving notice of withdrawal from the EU requires act of parliament (warning: worked for me, but might be paywalled for some)
Paywalled for me too but people are quoting various sections of it on Twitter. And yeah, I'm not anywhere near legally knowledgeable enough to weigh on the detail of this, but Lord Pannick QC's views carry some serious weight.
Oh, well. At least we as a country have a strong consensus on how we constitutionally reconcile the verdict of an 'advisory' referendum with legislative processes in the Houses of Parliament! And I'm sure there won't be any backlash at all if it gets voted down and fails. After all, the country is clearly educated in the processes of parliamentary democracy, and would never be building up to a frothing rage in newspaper comments sections already about how taking it to Parliament wouldn't be respecting democracy, would it?
Oh.
Well, at least we've got a stable and Government with a clear direction where everyone's at least broadly agreed on the direction we need to take with... oh.
Well, at least the Opposition is... oh.
Well, at least Leave had a well thought through and detailed plan to... oh.
Well, at least we won't end up with a huge backlash against the inevitable messy and tangled fallout from this, in which large chunks of the population feel that their voice wasn't heard, their vote wasn't respected, and the only way forward is to ditch the weak and pointless processes of government and march bravely on with a Strong Leader who doesn't get pointlessly hung up by listening to 'experts' and 'facts' and 'parliamentary processes', and who'll lead us in an authoritarian crusade against foreigners, the elite, the establishment, and all British people who aren't real and decent British people. That could never happen here.
posted by Catseye at 1:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [20 favorites]
Paywalled for me too but people are quoting various sections of it on Twitter. And yeah, I'm not anywhere near legally knowledgeable enough to weigh on the detail of this, but Lord Pannick QC's views carry some serious weight.
Oh, well. At least we as a country have a strong consensus on how we constitutionally reconcile the verdict of an 'advisory' referendum with legislative processes in the Houses of Parliament! And I'm sure there won't be any backlash at all if it gets voted down and fails. After all, the country is clearly educated in the processes of parliamentary democracy, and would never be building up to a frothing rage in newspaper comments sections already about how taking it to Parliament wouldn't be respecting democracy, would it?
Oh.
Well, at least we've got a stable and Government with a clear direction where everyone's at least broadly agreed on the direction we need to take with... oh.
Well, at least the Opposition is... oh.
Well, at least Leave had a well thought through and detailed plan to... oh.
Well, at least we won't end up with a huge backlash against the inevitable messy and tangled fallout from this, in which large chunks of the population feel that their voice wasn't heard, their vote wasn't respected, and the only way forward is to ditch the weak and pointless processes of government and march bravely on with a Strong Leader who doesn't get pointlessly hung up by listening to 'experts' and 'facts' and 'parliamentary processes', and who'll lead us in an authoritarian crusade against foreigners, the elite, the establishment, and all British people who aren't real and decent British people. That could never happen here.
posted by Catseye at 1:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [20 favorites]
So, the lawyers are mobilising to make the case that Article 50 cannot be invoked without an Act of Parliament & right now Parliament is in no shape to make any such determination as both major parties are in the middle of leadership challenges of one sort or another. The long grass awaits.
Oh, and Gove has just announced that he’s standing for the leadership. Team Boris are predictably outraged. The idea of either of them in the role of the PM fills me with horror frankly.
posted by pharm at 1:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, and Gove has just announced that he’s standing for the leadership. Team Boris are predictably outraged. The idea of either of them in the role of the PM fills me with horror frankly.
posted by pharm at 1:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
A lot of Macbeth references on the Twitters. It's suggested Gove is standing because his wife thinks it's a good idea.
posted by Grangousier at 2:06 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 2:06 AM on June 30, 2016
I suspect many political careers are really power partnerships, with one as the figurehead and the other making deals and playing the PR / diplomacy game behind the scenes.
posted by pharm at 2:10 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by pharm at 2:10 AM on June 30, 2016
Tweet from Tom Newton Dunn of The Sun: "A text arrives from a senior Team Boris figure: "Gove is a c*** who set this up form start". This is going to be bloody."
posted by Grangousier at 2:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 2:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh hey, the choices get worse: Theresa May's in, too!
posted by skybluepink at 2:12 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by skybluepink at 2:12 AM on June 30, 2016
If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?
Define "ordinary working people" - am I included in that as an EU migrant? As someone who is poor but not currently in work? Because if your definition does include people like me, it's a lot less likely. Theoretically possible, yes, but given that the UK is adamant about mistreating EU migrants (observe the rather stark difference in benefits eligibility at present, where EU membership in theory ought to mean them being the same) and there are incredibly murmurs about freedom of movement being on the table for discussions.
The whole Brexit campaign was fought on the basis of making life shittier for people like me. It's unlikely to somehow get better instead.
posted by Dysk at 2:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Define "ordinary working people" - am I included in that as an EU migrant? As someone who is poor but not currently in work? Because if your definition does include people like me, it's a lot less likely. Theoretically possible, yes, but given that the UK is adamant about mistreating EU migrants (observe the rather stark difference in benefits eligibility at present, where EU membership in theory ought to mean them being the same) and there are incredibly murmurs about freedom of movement being on the table for discussions.
The whole Brexit campaign was fought on the basis of making life shittier for people like me. It's unlikely to somehow get better instead.
posted by Dysk at 2:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
For all her political faults (from my POV), I’ll take May over Gove or Boris any day of the week. She has the distinct advantage of actually being competent, which appears to be in short supply with the rest of them. That’s probably the quality that the country is going to need in the next couple of years over all others.
(Oh, and she says she’s abandoned any attempt to pull out of the ECHR, because there’s no Parliamentary majority for it, which presumably means that a bunch of Tory MPs have told her that’s a red line for them. So that’s something.)
posted by pharm at 2:17 AM on June 30, 2016
(Oh, and she says she’s abandoned any attempt to pull out of the ECHR, because there’s no Parliamentary majority for it, which presumably means that a bunch of Tory MPs have told her that’s a red line for them. So that’s something.)
posted by pharm at 2:17 AM on June 30, 2016
(Oh, and she says she’s abandoned any attempt to pull out of the ECHR, because there’s no Parliamentary majority for it, which presumably means that a bunch of Tory MPs have told her that’s a red line for them. So that’s something.)
Or she is, as you say, competent, and isn't campaigning on a basis of "I'm going to fuck your remaining rights off" even if that is what she intends to do.
See also: snoopers' charter.
posted by Dysk at 2:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or she is, as you say, competent, and isn't campaigning on a basis of "I'm going to fuck your remaining rights off" even if that is what she intends to do.
See also: snoopers' charter.
posted by Dysk at 2:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hey, anyone want a depressing read? Here's the Economist Intelligence Unit assessment of the Brexit impact.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 2:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Regardless of what happens with Brexit, Scotland is already half-way out of the door.
What do you call a Scotsman who is half way out the door?
..."Hamish!"
(meet Hamish).
posted by rongorongo at 2:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
What do you call a Scotsman who is half way out the door?
..."Hamish!"
(meet Hamish).
posted by rongorongo at 2:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nobody wants Borisconi because of what he's done. The alternatives are Gove and May.
Good luck everyone.
posted by vbfg at 2:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Good luck everyone.
posted by vbfg at 2:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
By the way, I don't know if anyone else got it, but the regular YouGov questionnaire the other day included the question "If there were to be a national emergency, who would you prefer to take over? a) The Queen; b) The Police; c) The Army; d); Parliament".
(That's from memory, and I might be getting the list of nominees confused with Bands of the 70s, but it was definitely a very slightly veiled sounding of people's opinions on martial law.)
posted by Grangousier at 2:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
(That's from memory, and I might be getting the list of nominees confused with Bands of the 70s, but it was definitely a very slightly veiled sounding of people's opinions on martial law.)
posted by Grangousier at 2:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
And if we own that neither self-sufficiency, nor preservation of traditional practices and communities, nor even the conservation of nature, are reasonable goals of farming subsidy in the UK, then the justification for the CAP and its tariffs are...what?
From the treaty:
to increase productivity, by promoting technical progress and ensuring the optimum use of the factors of production, in particular labour;
to ensure a fair standard of living for the agricultural Community;
to stabilise markets;
to secure availability of supplies;
to provide consumers with food at reasonable prices.
UK self sufficiency isn't a goal of the CAP because it's a Common Agricultural Policy not a BAP. Same goes for any member state.
posted by ersatz at 2:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
From the treaty:
to increase productivity, by promoting technical progress and ensuring the optimum use of the factors of production, in particular labour;
to ensure a fair standard of living for the agricultural Community;
to stabilise markets;
to secure availability of supplies;
to provide consumers with food at reasonable prices.
UK self sufficiency isn't a goal of the CAP because it's a Common Agricultural Policy not a BAP. Same goes for any member state.
posted by ersatz at 2:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The EU kind of abandoned most of those goals decades ago though. Now it’s mostly the combination of a basic income for marginal smallholders and a covert wealth transfer to large landowners.
posted by pharm at 3:10 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by pharm at 3:10 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's a silly question from me. If the UK leaves the EU and joins the EEA, is there not a chance that this might be better for ordinary working people in the UK?
I agree with this by and large. It's bad for the UK government's leverage but as the UK tends to pull the EU in a regressive direction, may not be so bad for the people
Dysk -
Define "ordinary working people" - am I included in that as an EU migrant? As someone who is poor but not currently in work? Because if your definition does include people like me, it's a lot less likely.
My understanding of how the EEA works is that EEA migrants (Norwegians, Icelanders etc) have to be treated the same as EU migrants, with the same access to free movement, benefits and so on. For example, the directive on free movement for citizens and their families (non-EEA) applies as much to EEA but non-EU citizens as to EU citizens. Exhibit 2 : the Citizens Advice Bureau has a link to claiming housing benefit as an EEA citizen.
I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong but I see EEA citizens are being treated basically the same.
posted by plep at 3:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with this by and large. It's bad for the UK government's leverage but as the UK tends to pull the EU in a regressive direction, may not be so bad for the people
Dysk -
Define "ordinary working people" - am I included in that as an EU migrant? As someone who is poor but not currently in work? Because if your definition does include people like me, it's a lot less likely.
My understanding of how the EEA works is that EEA migrants (Norwegians, Icelanders etc) have to be treated the same as EU migrants, with the same access to free movement, benefits and so on. For example, the directive on free movement for citizens and their families (non-EEA) applies as much to EEA but non-EU citizens as to EU citizens. Exhibit 2 : the Citizens Advice Bureau has a link to claiming housing benefit as an EEA citizen.
I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong but I see EEA citizens are being treated basically the same.
posted by plep at 3:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking the same. I think it's probably the best outcome at this point.
Ignoring the Referendum or burying it under procedure probably won't work, but maybe this might be better.
The EU will insist on all rules being followed, and there is no way that not being in the single market will be tolerable. But Bear in mind that Farage was an MEP for 17 years and did nothing but try to destroy the EU.
Also, throughout, Britain constantly sat on the sidelines and sniped and complained.
I think we may end up with all the EEA rules (no more special exceptions) and no say in those rules (which is oddly a good thing I think, given our contribution so far)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:24 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ignoring the Referendum or burying it under procedure probably won't work, but maybe this might be better.
The EU will insist on all rules being followed, and there is no way that not being in the single market will be tolerable. But Bear in mind that Farage was an MEP for 17 years and did nothing but try to destroy the EU.
Also, throughout, Britain constantly sat on the sidelines and sniped and complained.
I think we may end up with all the EEA rules (no more special exceptions) and no say in those rules (which is oddly a good thing I think, given our contribution so far)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:24 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong but I see EEA citizens are being treated basically the same.
EU citizens are currently not treated the same in the UK. If a transition to the EEA only were to return some of the rights we've lost over the past decade, that'd be awesome, but again, that strikes me as unlikely given the talk of freedom of movement being "on the table" for negotiations.
Exhibit 2 : the Citizens Advice Bureau has a link to claiming housing benefit as an EEA citizen.
From that very link: "If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. After that you can claim for a total of 91 days, which can be split across several periods of jobseeking."
That is not the same rights to benefits as a British citizen. And since it's your ability to satisfy the requirements of the habitual residency test that's tied to being in work, that means you won't be eligible for housing benefit or council tax benefit or any benefits of any kind if you are unable to work for any reason (including illness or disability) as that means you aren't habitually resident in the UK for benefits purposes, regardless of your actual circumstances. Ask me how I know.
The only silver lining to this cloud is that similar exemptions for in-work benefits that Cameron negotiated are void and not coming into force as a result of the referendum.
posted by Dysk at 3:30 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
EU citizens are currently not treated the same in the UK. If a transition to the EEA only were to return some of the rights we've lost over the past decade, that'd be awesome, but again, that strikes me as unlikely given the talk of freedom of movement being "on the table" for negotiations.
Exhibit 2 : the Citizens Advice Bureau has a link to claiming housing benefit as an EEA citizen.
From that very link: "If you're an EEA national who has come to the UK as a jobseeker, you can’t claim income-based jobseeker's allowance during your first three months in the country. After that you can claim for a total of 91 days, which can be split across several periods of jobseeking."
That is not the same rights to benefits as a British citizen. And since it's your ability to satisfy the requirements of the habitual residency test that's tied to being in work, that means you won't be eligible for housing benefit or council tax benefit or any benefits of any kind if you are unable to work for any reason (including illness or disability) as that means you aren't habitually resident in the UK for benefits purposes, regardless of your actual circumstances. Ask me how I know.
The only silver lining to this cloud is that similar exemptions for in-work benefits that Cameron negotiated are void and not coming into force as a result of the referendum.
posted by Dysk at 3:30 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
All I know is that up is down now and down is up.
This is from Theresa May, who appears to be campaigning as a social reformer. Truly we are through the looking-glass.
Britain still needs a Government that is capable of delivering a programme of serious social reform and realising a vision of a country that truly works for everyone.
The evidence of this need has been known to us for a long time. If you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white. If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else to go to university. If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately. If you’re a woman, you still earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s too often not enough help to hand. If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home. These are all burning injustices, and - as I did with the misuse of stop and search and deaths in police custody and modern slavery - I am determined to fight against them.
posted by vacapinta at 3:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is from Theresa May, who appears to be campaigning as a social reformer. Truly we are through the looking-glass.
Britain still needs a Government that is capable of delivering a programme of serious social reform and realising a vision of a country that truly works for everyone.
The evidence of this need has been known to us for a long time. If you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white. If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else to go to university. If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately. If you’re a woman, you still earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s too often not enough help to hand. If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home. These are all burning injustices, and - as I did with the misuse of stop and search and deaths in police custody and modern slavery - I am determined to fight against them.
posted by vacapinta at 3:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
One link deeper on the CAB page: "From 1 March 2014, you may not be accepted as being a former worker or self-employed person if your gross earnings or your profits in the preceding three months of work or self-employment were less than a 'Minimun Earnings Threshold'"
Being accepted as a former worker here means passing the habitual residency test and qualifying for any benefits at all.
posted by Dysk at 3:52 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Being accepted as a former worker here means passing the habitual residency test and qualifying for any benefits at all.
posted by Dysk at 3:52 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Boris Johnson has just pulled out of the Tory leadership race.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 3:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Mallory Archer makes a pretty effective Theresa May stand in for Memes.
Also you can probably get away with just attributing Mallory Archer quotes to May...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:58 AM on June 30, 2016
Also you can probably get away with just attributing Mallory Archer quotes to May...
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:58 AM on June 30, 2016
From the Guardian feed:
14m ago: Boris Johnson launches his leadership bid
5m ago: Johnson pulls out of Tory leadership contest
3m ago: He is not taking questions.
posted by effbot at 3:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
14m ago: Boris Johnson launches his leadership bid
5m ago: Johnson pulls out of Tory leadership contest
3m ago: He is not taking questions.
posted by effbot at 3:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [15 favorites]
Impressive that he ended up even ending his own career. Oh, Boris, you irresponsible bastard. One MP dead, a country that is economically crippled, and the possible breakup of the UK.
I hope he is truly, deeply ashamed.
posted by jaduncan at 4:00 AM on June 30, 2016 [32 favorites]
I hope he is truly, deeply ashamed.
posted by jaduncan at 4:00 AM on June 30, 2016 [32 favorites]
The Guardian has an interesting article on the three Tory contenders:
Who is most liberal – May, Johnson or Gove?
What caught my eye (and which I didn't know before) was their description of Theresa May:
and
I think the UK urgently needs a good negotiator in charge, and she may be the best one on offer.
posted by Azara at 4:01 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Who is most liberal – May, Johnson or Gove?
What caught my eye (and which I didn't know before) was their description of Theresa May:
After 10 years she is now the most experienced interior minister in Europe and has proved highly influential in justice and home affairs policies
and
Although a professed Eurosceptic it was little surprise when she announced she was backing the remain in Europe campaign. In an earlier life she was a Brussels lobbyist for the Association of Clearing Banks for six years and is very much at home trying to secure what she wants in Europe.
I think the UK urgently needs a good negotiator in charge, and she may be the best one on offer.
posted by Azara at 4:01 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Proof-reading/input please. I want to start a petition on the Parliament site calling for a General Election prior to negotiations. I don't think it's correct for only Tory party members to make that decision. What do people think on this/would they be prepared to sign it?
Commitment to General Election before start of EU exit negotiations.
The British people have voted to leave the European Union. However, the Conservatives and other parties cannot claim an electoral mandate to negotiate the form our exit from the EU takes. We, the people, deserve to take back control of this and vote on policies for the negotiation.
This will be one of the largest constitutional changes in our history, no 2015 manifesto says how parties will act in this situation. How much do we want to remain in the Common Market? Do we want to retain freedom of movement? How vital is the City's financial access? How will EU based rights/regulations be re-written? etc. The referendum answered none of these. The only way to secure a mandate is through a General Election. We call on Parliament to commit to this before negotiations start.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Commitment to General Election before start of EU exit negotiations.
The British people have voted to leave the European Union. However, the Conservatives and other parties cannot claim an electoral mandate to negotiate the form our exit from the EU takes. We, the people, deserve to take back control of this and vote on policies for the negotiation.
This will be one of the largest constitutional changes in our history, no 2015 manifesto says how parties will act in this situation. How much do we want to remain in the Common Market? Do we want to retain freedom of movement? How vital is the City's financial access? How will EU based rights/regulations be re-written? etc. The referendum answered none of these. The only way to secure a mandate is through a General Election. We call on Parliament to commit to this before negotiations start.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
On Theresa May from the Guardian link above: "Her tough stance on immigration was sealed by the conflicts over the Home Office-run “Go Home” posters on vans"
Between this and her unequivocal and wholehearted opposition to the ECHR (not to mention her stance on whistleblowers and privacy), she would be disastrous for many, many people.
posted by Dysk at 4:09 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
Between this and her unequivocal and wholehearted opposition to the ECHR (not to mention her stance on whistleblowers and privacy), she would be disastrous for many, many people.
posted by Dysk at 4:09 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
Theresa May was the Home Secretary who introduced the £18,600 minimum income requirement for spouses and much more. She's been a very regressive Home Secretary and echoing Dysk, many people ought to be worried.
posted by plep at 4:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by plep at 4:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
(In other words, she is personally responsible for actually breaking up families).
posted by plep at 4:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by plep at 4:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
So this is why Boris was playing cricket over the weekend: he knew. From the moment he won, he had lost.
posted by Quagkapi at 4:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Quagkapi at 4:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE JEREMY.
Meanwhile, the embattled Labour leader Jeremy Corby has put the cat among the pigeons at the launch of a report into antisemitism within the party with a quote which appeared to liken Israel to Islamic State (Isis):
Corbyn: "Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than our Muslim friends are for the self-styled Islamic State"
YOU HAVE THE PERFECT BLOODY TIMING FROM BORIS TO BURY THE REPORT AND LET THE TORIES GET THE SHITTY PRESS FOR THE DAY, AND SOMEBODY LETS THAT INTO THE TEXT OF THE SPEECH?
posted by MattWPBS at 4:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Meanwhile, the embattled Labour leader Jeremy Corby has put the cat among the pigeons at the launch of a report into antisemitism within the party with a quote which appeared to liken Israel to Islamic State (Isis):
Corbyn: "Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than our Muslim friends are for the self-styled Islamic State"
YOU HAVE THE PERFECT BLOODY TIMING FROM BORIS TO BURY THE REPORT AND LET THE TORIES GET THE SHITTY PRESS FOR THE DAY, AND SOMEBODY LETS THAT INTO THE TEXT OF THE SPEECH?
posted by MattWPBS at 4:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Right. Boris out. Tories are getting their shit together, and I think we're not going to get a bloody fight for their leadership, alas. I would not be at all surprised to see Gove drop out, and the hideous May quickly be shown as the Anointed One. Meanwhile, Labour chaos continues. We are so screwed.
On the upside, Boris is done. Forever, I hope.
posted by skybluepink at 4:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
On the upside, Boris is done. Forever, I hope.
posted by skybluepink at 4:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
MattWPBS, not sure how to use a MeFi thread for proofreading, although it's a great idea. My one alteration is that the term of art is Single Market, not Common Market, I think.
posted by ambrosen at 4:16 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by ambrosen at 4:16 AM on June 30, 2016
and the hideous May quickly be shown as the Anointed One
Called it.
(well, my friends did, but close enough :-)
posted by effbot at 4:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Called it.
(well, my friends did, but close enough :-)
posted by effbot at 4:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah that recent thing that Corbyn said was politically stupid, but he didn't say Israel is like Isis.
He said that being of a religion does not make you responsible for the actions of other people of the same religion.
That's sound.
But of course he said it like an idiot and already there are thousands of tweets saying things like "OMG can't believe Corbyn said Israel was the same as ISIS"
So, yeah, he (and the whole media team) need to go. But not in a Progress led coup.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
He said that being of a religion does not make you responsible for the actions of other people of the same religion.
That's sound.
But of course he said it like an idiot and already there are thousands of tweets saying things like "OMG can't believe Corbyn said Israel was the same as ISIS"
So, yeah, he (and the whole media team) need to go. But not in a Progress led coup.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 4:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
So can political parties buy malpractice insurance for their leaders? Just wondering.
posted by maudlin at 4:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by maudlin at 4:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
So can political parties buy malpractice insurance for their leaders?
Not after this week...
posted by Catseye at 4:41 AM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Not after this week...
posted by Catseye at 4:41 AM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Yeah that recent thing that Corbyn said was politically stupid, but he didn't say Israel is like Isis.
Oh, please. The comparison, and anti-Semitism, is clear. Attempting to excuse it with childish recourse to ridiculous semantics is not a good look.
posted by OmieWise at 4:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh, please. The comparison, and anti-Semitism, is clear. Attempting to excuse it with childish recourse to ridiculous semantics is not a good look.
posted by OmieWise at 4:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I find it hard to believe BoJo's career is over. Every single thing he does is so very calculated I'm assuming him pulling out is another strategic move rather than a defeat, just because I don't trust a word out of his mouth. Any chance the plan is to let May (shudder) or Gove (heave) manage the fuckstorm of an exit and then he swoops in at a later date after their career is in tatters?
posted by billiebee at 4:57 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 4:57 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Then you may need to excuse me for not looking good, because I don't see that comparison happening either. (I guess I can't really judge whether there is anti-Semitism present, so I will refrain from trying.)
It was a really stupid thing to say, because people will read this as a comparison. That much, I can see.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was a really stupid thing to say, because people will read this as a comparison. That much, I can see.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
As my friend just emailed me of the Corbyn Isis/Israel quote, 'Seamus, I'm not sure this is such a good idea.'
Also I so wish he'd knock off the 'friends' shit, it sets my teeth on edge every time.
I joined the Labour Party this morning.
posted by Mocata at 4:59 AM on June 30, 2016
Also I so wish he'd knock off the 'friends' shit, it sets my teeth on edge every time.
I joined the Labour Party this morning.
posted by Mocata at 4:59 AM on June 30, 2016
He said that being of a religion does not make you responsible for the actions of other people of the same religion.
I dunno, he said:
"'Zio' is a vile epithet. Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than our Muslim friends are for the self-styled Islamic State"
which has "jewish friends" and "muslim friends" as one equivalence pair, and "Israel" and "Islamic State" as the second pair.
It would be a lot easier to read this as a mistake if it didn't come from a guy who e.g. recently refused to reply to a letter from Israeli labour and has always done this "but on the other hand" thing whenever commenting on anything that might challenge the dogma of one of the many activist groups he used to hang out with.
posted by effbot at 5:01 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I dunno, he said:
"'Zio' is a vile epithet. Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than our Muslim friends are for the self-styled Islamic State"
which has "jewish friends" and "muslim friends" as one equivalence pair, and "Israel" and "Islamic State" as the second pair.
It would be a lot easier to read this as a mistake if it didn't come from a guy who e.g. recently refused to reply to a letter from Israeli labour and has always done this "but on the other hand" thing whenever commenting on anything that might challenge the dogma of one of the many activist groups he used to hang out with.
posted by effbot at 5:01 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
To be honest, the Labour and Tory Party car crashes probably need threads of their own, but I don't feel up to putting them together.
posted by Grangousier at 5:04 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 5:04 AM on June 30, 2016
So, let me suggest an unconventional candidate for Labour Party leader: Mr Boris Johnson. Now, hear me out; he * [there is a screech as the author is violently carried away in Eagle's talons] *
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
And Corbyn's Momentum thugs attacked Jewish labour MPs during the press conference, accusing them to be right wing shills.
So one press conference ended with Boris MP backers in tears, the other with Jewish MPs in tears. Good job, UK politics.
posted by effbot at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
So one press conference ended with Boris MP backers in tears, the other with Jewish MPs in tears. Good job, UK politics.
posted by effbot at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Boris has a US passport and was born in the US. Perhaps he'll go run as Trump's VP.
posted by vacapinta at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]
Vacapinta, stop it right now!!
**shudder**
posted by Pendragon at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
**shudder**
posted by Pendragon at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Totally genius, but sadly for Boris and probably happily for us, he'd have to have lived in the US for the past 14 years.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Johnson actually renounced his US citizenship in order to avoid taxes. Seriously.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Boris has a US passport and was born in the US. Perhaps he'll go run as Trump's VP.
There's prior art for that.
posted by effbot at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016
There's prior art for that.
posted by effbot at 5:20 AM on June 30, 2016
US President Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:22 AM on June 30, 2016
Johnson actually renounced his US citizenship
Citation, please.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:23 AM on June 30, 2016
Citation, please.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:23 AM on June 30, 2016
It doesn't seem any less possible than many things that have actually happened over the last week.
posted by Grangousier at 5:25 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 5:25 AM on June 30, 2016
My apologies for a potential derail - I should know better. Let's handle the dismantling of one country at a time.
posted by vacapinta at 5:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 5:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
US President Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson?
You mean Trump would throw in the towel as soon as he's confronted with the all the things you actually have to do to be the president? Just like Boris just (preemptively) did? Who's the third one in the US succession line?
posted by effbot at 5:32 AM on June 30, 2016
You mean Trump would throw in the towel as soon as he's confronted with the all the things you actually have to do to be the president? Just like Boris just (preemptively) did? Who's the third one in the US succession line?
posted by effbot at 5:32 AM on June 30, 2016
Boris Johnson clears way to Number 10 by renouncing US passport
The Atlantic also
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:32 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Atlantic also
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:32 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
This quote is well-known, but I'll leave it here anyway.
Gove, in 2012: "I could not be Prime Minister, I'm not equipped to be Prime Minister, I don't want to be Prime Minister."
That's his expert opinion, presumably.
posted by Quagkapi at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Gove, in 2012: "I could not be Prime Minister, I'm not equipped to be Prime Minister, I don't want to be Prime Minister."
That's his expert opinion, presumably.
posted by Quagkapi at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Both say Johnson is intending to renounce his US citizenship.
I have yet to see a report he did.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have yet to see a report he did.
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are good reasons to believe the government’s decision to withdraw from the EU would not be legal, and that the UK is not going anywhere.
posted by rory at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rory at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The choice now is between, in Gove, a true Brexit believer and, in May, a candidate who today declared “Brexit means Brexit”. Those who had hoped that the next prime minister might look for a fudge, a way out of the 23 June verdict, need to lower their expectations – and accept that out might really mean out. - Guardian
I don't agree with any of this. Every politician knows that a reversal is unspeakable right now and means career death. But that doesn't preclude it as an option down the road.
posted by vacapinta at 5:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't agree with any of this. Every politician knows that a reversal is unspeakable right now and means career death. But that doesn't preclude it as an option down the road.
posted by vacapinta at 5:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Austerity and class divide likely factors behind Brexit vote, major survey suggests
Apologies if it was linked above. I'm increasingly convinced that the obscene Benefit Sanctions regime is a very important influence on people's voting - a Kafkaesque system deliberately designed to induce despair, in response to which it likely seemed a rational response - for example.
I accept that I'm a week late in that analysis.
posted by Grangousier at 5:41 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Apologies if it was linked above. I'm increasingly convinced that the obscene Benefit Sanctions regime is a very important influence on people's voting - a Kafkaesque system deliberately designed to induce despair, in response to which it likely seemed a rational response - for example.
I accept that I'm a week late in that analysis.
posted by Grangousier at 5:41 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Gove is an anti-intellectual protofascist slug that needs salting.
---
Theresa May is an actual fascist. Smart and competent, but the tendency to crush the little person is there if you look at all.
"May supported the detention of David Miranda, partner of Wikileaks journalist Glenn Greenwald under the Terrorism Act 2000, saying that critics of the Metropolitan Police action needed to "think about what they are condoning"
She wants to repeal the human rights act, and withdraw from the ECHR.
She's completely anti-privacy and pro state surveilance
posted by lalochezia at 5:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
---
Theresa May is an actual fascist. Smart and competent, but the tendency to crush the little person is there if you look at all.
"May supported the detention of David Miranda, partner of Wikileaks journalist Glenn Greenwald under the Terrorism Act 2000, saying that critics of the Metropolitan Police action needed to "think about what they are condoning"
She wants to repeal the human rights act, and withdraw from the ECHR.
She's completely anti-privacy and pro state surveilance
posted by lalochezia at 5:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [19 favorites]
Meanwhile, J. K. Rowling is on a roll. Only a matter of time before Corbyn's online fanbase starts a petition asking him to ban Harry Potter.
(Talking about kids, I just noticed this petition. Then I noticed this one.)
posted by effbot at 5:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Talking about kids, I just noticed this petition. Then I noticed this one.)
posted by effbot at 5:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Did you see she's also changed her masthead?
"I know what Dumbledore would do. Deal with it."
posted by like_neon at 5:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I know what Dumbledore would do. Deal with it."
posted by like_neon at 5:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Huh, actually introducing PPE as a subject in schools would be a really good idea I think.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I cannot believe I am doing this, but here goes: a defense of Corbyn.
Corbyn didn't actually compare Israel to ISIS. He was misquoted in early reports; he actually said
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]
Corbyn didn't actually compare Israel to ISIS. He was misquoted in early reports; he actually said
"Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu Government than our Muslim friends are for those various self-styled Islamic states or organisations."That's ... kind of patronising, but not unreasonable; there are literally dozens of Islamic states (Corbyn used to work for the media arm of one such state) and it would be wrong to blame "our Muslim friends" for the actions of any of them.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]
Who is more liberal, May Or Gove
spoiler: they both are not liberal
(also, the URL says May or Johnson....lol)
posted by lalochezia at 5:57 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
spoiler: they both are not liberal
(also, the URL says May or Johnson....lol)
posted by lalochezia at 5:57 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Gove is an anti-intellectual protofascist slug that needs salting.
Don't be so rude! Slugs have feelings too.
posted by billiebee at 5:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Don't be so rude! Slugs have feelings too.
posted by billiebee at 5:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
YOu can't spell Government unless it's led by Gove, right?
Shakesperian now the only word, that fits
This broiling swill of poison, cocks and shits
And we the people, before the game is done
Will have to plunge our hand, and hold on fast to one.
posted by Devonian at 6:03 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Shakesperian now the only word, that fits
This broiling swill of poison, cocks and shits
And we the people, before the game is done
Will have to plunge our hand, and hold on fast to one.
posted by Devonian at 6:03 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Found on J.K. Rowling's Twitter:
A letter to Jeremy Corbyn from ‘the poor’ you wear as a badge
Wow.
(I read the first Harry Potter book years ago, and watched half the first movie and hated it. And now I'm following J.K. Rowling on Twitter. Strange days indeed.)
posted by Grangousier at 6:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
A letter to Jeremy Corbyn from ‘the poor’ you wear as a badge
Wow.
(I read the first Harry Potter book years ago, and watched half the first movie and hated it. And now I'm following J.K. Rowling on Twitter. Strange days indeed.)
posted by Grangousier at 6:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Huh, actually introducing PPE as a subject in schools would be a really good idea I think.
Agreed. UK folks, go sign the petition :-)
posted by effbot at 6:05 AM on June 30, 2016
Agreed. UK folks, go sign the petition :-)
posted by effbot at 6:05 AM on June 30, 2016
Angela Eagle has reportedly delayed launching her leadership bid until Monday to give Corbyn more time to resign.
At this point I just want it all over. And by all I probably mean Britain.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:06 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
At this point I just want it all over. And by all I probably mean Britain.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:06 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking of Rowling:
@elizabethforma: Looking for a Defense Against the Dark Arts prof, @jk_rowling? Where do I apply? Trump, Death Eaters - I got this!posted by zombieflanders at 6:06 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Discussions on transitional arrangements for an independent Scotland to remain in the European Union (EU) after the UK leaves are taking place in Brussels, a former senior adviser to the European Commission (EC) has disclosed.
Background as to why this is so big to those less familiar, a huge debate point during the Scottish Independence Referendum in 2014 was this very question of Scotland's ability to be in the EU separate from the UK.
posted by like_neon at 6:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Background as to why this is so big to those less familiar, a huge debate point during the Scottish Independence Referendum in 2014 was this very question of Scotland's ability to be in the EU separate from the UK.
posted by like_neon at 6:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pretty sure Britain as a united entity will be over soon, when Scotland heads off happily into the sunset.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:08 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:08 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Grangousier - wow indeed. And Jo Rowling shared this? Good on her.
posted by Mocata at 6:15 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Mocata at 6:15 AM on June 30, 2016
Scotland would be heading into the sunrise.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well the Tories have turned into a giant clusterfuck. Gove would absolutely reject single market membership which would basically try to resurrect the Sterling bloc without the actual bloc to back it up.
Why the fuck would anyone willingly do that? What is the benefit here besides giving some Brussels straw man the middle finger?
posted by Talez at 6:19 AM on June 30, 2016
Why the fuck would anyone willingly do that? What is the benefit here besides giving some Brussels straw man the middle finger?
posted by Talez at 6:19 AM on June 30, 2016
Discussions on transitional arrangements for an independent Scotland to remain in the European Union (EU) after the UK leaves are taking place in Brussels...
I wouldn't put too much faith in that. Both Spain and France are taking a hard line on this, to make it harder for their own separatist movements. Scotland wouldn't be allowed to take the UK chair, so to speak, but have to apply as an already-independent country, which substantially changes both the terms of entry, and the reality on the ground. There may be talks happening now, but French and Spanish vetoes would be fairly likely, I think.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:22 AM on June 30, 2016
I wouldn't put too much faith in that. Both Spain and France are taking a hard line on this, to make it harder for their own separatist movements. Scotland wouldn't be allowed to take the UK chair, so to speak, but have to apply as an already-independent country, which substantially changes both the terms of entry, and the reality on the ground. There may be talks happening now, but French and Spanish vetoes would be fairly likely, I think.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:22 AM on June 30, 2016
Angela Eagle has reportedly delayed launching her leadership bid until Monday to give Corbyn more time to resign.
Bottled it because they've completely fucked this up, more like.
posted by Abiezer at 6:25 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bottled it because they've completely fucked this up, more like.
posted by Abiezer at 6:25 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
So just skimmed the inquiry. Is it just me, or are the only actual examples of abuse in there Boris Johnson's attack on Obama and a personal anecdote about how someone outside the party wasn't nice to her?
I also liked how the first thing she did as an independent chair was to join the party :-)
posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on June 30, 2016
I also liked how the first thing she did as an independent chair was to join the party :-)
posted by effbot at 6:30 AM on June 30, 2016
I can honestly see factional splits in the two main parties in the next year or so's worth of upheaval.
Time to read some Yeats.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
...
posted by MattWPBS at 6:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Time to read some Yeats.
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
...
posted by MattWPBS at 6:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
(I mean a veto of a Scotland-in-place-of-UK plan. My guess is that the talks going on now concern a second referendum, and EU recognition of the results.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:35 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:35 AM on June 30, 2016
As a Scottish person, it does feel like we're caught between the naked self interest of the English politicians on one side, and the Spanish politicians on the other.
The ship's on fire and nobody will promise to send a life boat if we jump. Which, I get. But it sucks. I'm personally in favour of jumping anyway.
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
The ship's on fire and nobody will promise to send a life boat if we jump. Which, I get. But it sucks. I'm personally in favour of jumping anyway.
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hearing noises that Scotland, NI, and Ireland may unify to give the members a larger say in international affairs and an expanded economic base. Was a joke at first, but as "Never Scotland" became a thing, it seems to be told a lot more often.
Ireland would be a part of a union that would more than double its population and GDP, and be the senior member, Scotland would retain EU membership through Ireland and the both of them together can better handle the economic and political impact of Irish reunification.
Wouldn't be the weirdest thing to come out of this.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Ireland would be a part of a union that would more than double its population and GDP, and be the senior member, Scotland would retain EU membership through Ireland and the both of them together can better handle the economic and political impact of Irish reunification.
Wouldn't be the weirdest thing to come out of this.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Time to read some Yeats.
Were it not for the fact that he was Irish, I'd suggest setting it to music as the new national anthem.
posted by Grangousier at 6:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Were it not for the fact that he was Irish, I'd suggest setting it to music as the new national anthem.
posted by Grangousier at 6:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The ship's on fire and nobody will promise to send a life boat if we jump.
Actually, I think you have a standing invitation from these folks (cannot find the link right now, though). I can assure you that a lot of people would love to have you there.
posted by effbot at 6:40 AM on June 30, 2016
Actually, I think you have a standing invitation from these folks (cannot find the link right now, though). I can assure you that a lot of people would love to have you there.
posted by effbot at 6:40 AM on June 30, 2016
Was a joke at first...
The Union of Craic? I saw that, too.
Given that Sturgeon is the only one who knows what she's doing, and is working an actual plan, she's going to take advantage of the confusion and haplessness of everyone else somehow. What that produces in the end, I have no idea, but I'm sure that if there is a winner in all this, it will be Scotland by Sturgeon's hand.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Union of Craic? I saw that, too.
Given that Sturgeon is the only one who knows what she's doing, and is working an actual plan, she's going to take advantage of the confusion and haplessness of everyone else somehow. What that produces in the end, I have no idea, but I'm sure that if there is a winner in all this, it will be Scotland by Sturgeon's hand.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Time to bring back Gordon Brown and admit the entire Cameron era was a terrible mistake.
posted by humanfont at 6:46 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 6:46 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Monday: "And I thought we were the ones that sucked at politics" -- Italian friends on Facebook
Wednesday: "What is this, I thought only Polish politicians are nuts these days" -- Polish friends on Facebook
Thursday: "Wow, suddenly our politicians look sane" -- Israeli friends on Facebook
Going to have to take tomorrow off if you guys keep this thing going.
posted by effbot at 6:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
Wednesday: "What is this, I thought only Polish politicians are nuts these days" -- Polish friends on Facebook
Thursday: "Wow, suddenly our politicians look sane" -- Israeli friends on Facebook
Going to have to take tomorrow off if you guys keep this thing going.
posted by effbot at 6:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
There's going to be no way to say what will and will not be possible for Scotland to do until England calms down and decides what it is it wants, and the EU responds to that. It's a problem with many variables, and few are known.
And Sturgeon doesn't have a plan either, although she's been typically adroit at letting people leap to that conclusion. What she's doing is scoping out the ground, recruiting advisers, keeping as many people on board so she can move when she needs to without fighting domestic fires, taking soundings in Europe and letting everyone there know that she is serious and able to work with them.
And she's been very clear that while she wants an independent Scotland and wants to be ready to be able to make it happen as quickly as possible, that is contingent on that path being the best one for the country. There are many reasons why it might not be, and they will be explored - it's not like Brexit, it's the polar opposite.
In other words, she's being a responsible, clear-headed and thoughtful leader in very difficult times. It's one of the few points of hope in this whole sorry story.
posted by Devonian at 6:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [36 favorites]
And Sturgeon doesn't have a plan either, although she's been typically adroit at letting people leap to that conclusion. What she's doing is scoping out the ground, recruiting advisers, keeping as many people on board so she can move when she needs to without fighting domestic fires, taking soundings in Europe and letting everyone there know that she is serious and able to work with them.
And she's been very clear that while she wants an independent Scotland and wants to be ready to be able to make it happen as quickly as possible, that is contingent on that path being the best one for the country. There are many reasons why it might not be, and they will be explored - it's not like Brexit, it's the polar opposite.
In other words, she's being a responsible, clear-headed and thoughtful leader in very difficult times. It's one of the few points of hope in this whole sorry story.
posted by Devonian at 6:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [36 favorites]
Hearing noises that Scotland, NI, and Ireland may unify to give the members a larger say in international affairs and an expanded economic base. Was a joke at first, but as "Never Scotland" became a thing, it seems to be told a lot more often.
The Union of Scotland and Ireland, USI, or the Union of Ireland and Scotland, UIS? The latter has a ring to it, given that somewhere around the middle would be the Uists. (Don't think of building a capital there, though. Boggy. Very boggy.)
In this "all bets are off" atmosphere, who knows where we'll end up.
U Ireland NI Scotland UINIS
U Eire Ulster Alba UEUA
U Scotland Ireland NI USINI
As the grandson of a Manxwoman, I think we really ought to get the Isle of Man in there too somehow. UMINIS. UMEAU.
And to think that this time a week ago we were busily encouraging each other to get to the polls and vote.
posted by rory at 6:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Union of Scotland and Ireland, USI, or the Union of Ireland and Scotland, UIS? The latter has a ring to it, given that somewhere around the middle would be the Uists. (Don't think of building a capital there, though. Boggy. Very boggy.)
In this "all bets are off" atmosphere, who knows where we'll end up.
U Ireland NI Scotland UINIS
U Eire Ulster Alba UEUA
U Scotland Ireland NI USINI
As the grandson of a Manxwoman, I think we really ought to get the Isle of Man in there too somehow. UMINIS. UMEAU.
And to think that this time a week ago we were busily encouraging each other to get to the polls and vote.
posted by rory at 6:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's ... kind of patronising, but not unreasonable; there are literally dozens of Islamic states (Corbyn used to work for the media arm of one such state) and it would be wrong to blame "our Muslim friends" for the actions of any of them.
Agree 100%.
posted by zarq at 7:05 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Agree 100%.
posted by zarq at 7:05 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gove was "only supposed to blow the bloody doors off"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:10 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:10 AM on June 30, 2016
I yield to your expertise and familiarity, Devonian. You know Sturgeon better than I.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:12 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:12 AM on June 30, 2016
The Union of Scotland and Ireland, USI, or the Union of Ireland and Scotland, UIS?
I guess it could be the Celtic Union? Maybe if they get Britanny to join as well...
posted by destrius at 7:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess it could be the Celtic Union? Maybe if they get Britanny to join as well...
posted by destrius at 7:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ruth Smeeth:
I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional antisemitic slurs to attack me for being part of a ‘media conspiracy’. It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms [Shami] Chakrabarti’s report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing. [...]
No-one from the Leader’s office has contacted me since the event, which is itself a catastrophic failure of leadership. I call on Jeremy Corbyn to resign immediately and make way for someone with the backbone to confront racism and antisemitism in our party and in the country.
In her Twitter feed, Corbyn's Momentum thugs are calling her "a disgrace to your office if you cannot support our democratically elected leader" and accusing her of being part of an Israel lobby that manufactures anti semite incidents.
posted by effbot at 7:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional antisemitic slurs to attack me for being part of a ‘media conspiracy’. It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms [Shami] Chakrabarti’s report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing. [...]
No-one from the Leader’s office has contacted me since the event, which is itself a catastrophic failure of leadership. I call on Jeremy Corbyn to resign immediately and make way for someone with the backbone to confront racism and antisemitism in our party and in the country.
In her Twitter feed, Corbyn's Momentum thugs are calling her "a disgrace to your office if you cannot support our democratically elected leader" and accusing her of being part of an Israel lobby that manufactures anti semite incidents.
posted by effbot at 7:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
there are literally dozens of Islamic states (Corbyn used to work for the media arm of one such state)
He used the term "self-styled Islamic State" which is a term used in British media to refer to ISIS, so he was definitely trying to include them in his analogy.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:16 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
He used the term "self-styled Islamic State" which is a term used in British media to refer to ISIS, so he was definitely trying to include them in his analogy.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:16 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Scotland and N.I. joining into a union with Ireland may be a way to keep the Good Friday accords in place. I fear it's too neat a solution to actually happen, though.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:22 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:22 AM on June 30, 2016
It's the mail on sunday, but "Corbyn source confirms "organisations" Corbyn was referring to in his speech included ISIS, along with Hamas and AQ."
posted by effbot at 7:23 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by effbot at 7:23 AM on June 30, 2016
I'm firmly supporting Liam Fox so we can have Fox vs Eagle
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:26 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:26 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
> "The Union of Scotland and Ireland, USI, or the Union of Ireland and Scotland, UIS?"
I think it would obviously have to be UISGE, the Union of Ireland and Scotland within Greater Europe.
(... or within the Community of Europe, if you live in Ireland.)
posted by kyrademon at 7:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think it would obviously have to be UISGE, the Union of Ireland and Scotland within Greater Europe.
(... or within the Community of Europe, if you live in Ireland.)
posted by kyrademon at 7:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
>> The Union of Scotland and Ireland, USI, or the Union of Ireland and Scotland, UIS?
> I guess it could be the Celtic Union? Maybe if they get Britanny to join as well...
The No Englands Club. The correct name for this nation is the No Englands Club.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]
> I guess it could be the Celtic Union? Maybe if they get Britanny to join as well...
The No Englands Club. The correct name for this nation is the No Englands Club.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [25 favorites]
Irish Scottish Independence League ?
posted by Pendragon at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Nope, I'm standing firm on this one. Join the UISGE Rebellion!
posted by kyrademon at 7:34 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 7:34 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Nope, I'm standing firm on this one. Join the UISGE Rebellion!
I can only applaud your tenacity, standing firm is not something I can usually manage when I throw my lot in with uisge beatha.
posted by Abiezer at 7:37 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can only applaud your tenacity, standing firm is not something I can usually manage when I throw my lot in with uisge beatha.
posted by Abiezer at 7:37 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's OK, it'll get smoother with age.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
But then we'd have to reach a consensus on how to spell whisk(e)y. No chance.
posted by Catseye at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 7:39 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just this guy, y'know: Mallory Archer makes a pretty effective Theresa May stand in for Memes. Also you can probably get away with just attributing Mallory Archer quotes to May...
It seems to check out.
posted by traveler_ at 7:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It seems to check out.
posted by traveler_ at 7:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Scotland" originally referred to Ireland, so they could just go with that.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:46 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:46 AM on June 30, 2016
I think it would obviously have to be UISGE, the Union of Ireland and Scotland within Greater Europe.
Don't forget Gibraltar. which could stand service for the G.
Unless we trade them for the Spanish veto, of course. Harsh business, politics.
posted by Devonian at 7:51 AM on June 30, 2016
Don't forget Gibraltar. which could stand service for the G.
Unless we trade them for the Spanish veto, of course. Harsh business, politics.
posted by Devonian at 7:51 AM on June 30, 2016
LOUIS - London, Overall United Ireland and Scotland.
posted by MattWPBS at 7:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 7:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
The correct name for this nation is the No Englands Club.
Guys, you need to widen your scope a bit. I already linked to the Nordic Council, and they already consider you (but not England) as friends; there's already collaborations going on under a "western nordics" umbrella:
The Nordic region’s neighbours in the west are defined as the North Atlantic neighbours: Canada, particularly the provinces on the Atlantic coast; the United States of America, particularly the states on the Atlantic coast; Ireland; and Scotland.
posted by effbot at 7:58 AM on June 30, 2016
Guys, you need to widen your scope a bit. I already linked to the Nordic Council, and they already consider you (but not England) as friends; there's already collaborations going on under a "western nordics" umbrella:
The Nordic region’s neighbours in the west are defined as the North Atlantic neighbours: Canada, particularly the provinces on the Atlantic coast; the United States of America, particularly the states on the Atlantic coast; Ireland; and Scotland.
posted by effbot at 7:58 AM on June 30, 2016
Nerdwriter muses on where Brexit came from.
posted by Devonian at 8:02 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Devonian at 8:02 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
LOUIS - London, Overall United Ireland and Scotland.
I would vote anyone named Rick for President, if only for the international conversations.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would vote anyone named Rick for President, if only for the international conversations.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would vote anyone named Rick for President, if only for the international conversations.
rick
rick
how does the end of the enlightenment feel rick
posted by lalochezia at 8:12 AM on June 30, 2016 [36 favorites]
East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94, I applaud your thinking but should inform you that in British English Dr Fox is always referred to as 'the disgraced former Defence Secretary Liam Fox'.
posted by Mocata at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 8:16 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
Of course, one of my favorite Roald Dahl books
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Constitutional expert declares referendum to be a draw
I don't see it playing, really, but it's another can of petrol to dump on the fire.
Everybody seen the Vine of Gove clapping?
posted by Grangousier at 8:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't see it playing, really, but it's another can of petrol to dump on the fire.
Everybody seen the Vine of Gove clapping?
posted by Grangousier at 8:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Given their uncompromising opposition to Corbyn, it is unsurprising that the Labour party elite and (to a lesser extent) the media would deliberately misconstrue his analogy. But the willful misinterpretation of the analogy displayed in this thread is utterly bizarre. Consider the following analogy, for example: Ann supports the Greens as much as Bob supports UKIP. No-one would suggest that the Greens are being compared to UKIP just because the words "Greens" and "UKIP" appear in the same sentence; the comparison is clearly between the degree of support shown by Ann and Bob towards their favored political party. And yet, when Corbyn claims that British Jews are no more responsible for the actions of Israel than British Muslims are for the actions of ISIS (i.e., not at all), the fact that the words "Israel" and "ISIS" appear in the same sentence leads to outrage and -- most puzzlingly -- accusations of anti-semitism. How on earth can claiming that British Jews are not responsible for the actions of Israel be anti-semitic? And how on earth can anyone -- with the exception of those who believe that British Jews are part of a global Jewish conspiracy -- disagree with his analogy?
posted by Abelian Grape at 8:47 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Abelian Grape at 8:47 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Cameron and now Boris are running away from the absolute clusterfuck caused by a referendum created not for the good of the country but something a lot more crass and mundane: party in-fighting.
I think Caitlin Moran is summing up my feelings nicely:
So glad a load of public schoolboys have played Spunky Biscuit with the future of the country. Thanks, guys.
posted by like_neon at 8:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think Caitlin Moran is summing up my feelings nicely:
So glad a load of public schoolboys have played Spunky Biscuit with the future of the country. Thanks, guys.
posted by like_neon at 8:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think the point is that if you know that what you say will be misinterpreted, you should probably be more careful than that about what you do say, particularly on such an occasion. A few bland platitudes would be enough. If the response to that is "well, that's not who Jeremy is", that's the whole point, because the entire party shouldn't be hostage to the personality quirks of one person who makes systematic, bloodyminded errors of judgement.
posted by Grangousier at 8:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 8:53 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ann supports the Greens as much as Bob supports UKIP.
Ok. So is your point that UKIP is a terrorist organization, or that ISIS is a democratic country? Because otherwise I have a bit of a problem matching your example with what Corbyn said.
posted by effbot at 8:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ok. So is your point that UKIP is a terrorist organization, or that ISIS is a democratic country? Because otherwise I have a bit of a problem matching your example with what Corbyn said.
posted by effbot at 8:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, the point is to say it anyway and watch the PLP crowd and backers discredit themselves still further in their unseemly scramble to seize on anything, oblivious as to this is a big part of why they're losing.
Saw an amusing comment that Corbyn should now say he's going to resign but wants time for quiet reflection then have a nice weekend off and come back Monday saying "No, I'll stay."
posted by Abiezer at 9:01 AM on June 30, 2016
Saw an amusing comment that Corbyn should now say he's going to resign but wants time for quiet reflection then have a nice weekend off and come back Monday saying "No, I'll stay."
posted by Abiezer at 9:01 AM on June 30, 2016
Yes now the Tories are out for the count he can take the fight to the real enemy, the PLP.
posted by Mocata at 9:08 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 9:08 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Perhaps the least of his sins, but Jeremy Corbyn has just released a statement. In which he spells his own name wrong.
Maybe he thinks people will like this Corybn chap better. Just put on a hat and fake mustache and people will think it's a new leader.
posted by zachlipton at 9:10 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe he thinks people will like this Corybn chap better. Just put on a hat and fake mustache and people will think it's a new leader.
posted by zachlipton at 9:10 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Remind me who chose this fight now. Desperate stuff.
posted by Abiezer at 9:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Abiezer at 9:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Whatever you call United Scotland and Ireland (and Gibraltar), Wales and England can't be Wangland. Florida is already Wangland, and we're batshit Floridian enough to fight you for it.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 9:19 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 9:19 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't think we're going to reach agreement about who started it because your view on that depends on your view of whether there was a reasonable political calculation behind his decision to stick around after the referendum result, and we take opposite views on that.
posted by Mocata at 9:20 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Mocata at 9:20 AM on June 30, 2016
BBC Newsnight staffer Mark Urban is tweeting some sobering stuff on the prospect of a Brexit Britain striking a trade deal with the EU:
@MalmstromEU tells me EU/UK trade talks won't start until Art50 exit complete then UK will trade on WTO terms until a deal is done
That's Cecilia Malmström, EU Commissioner in charge of trade policy.
Triggering Article 50 would start the two-year clock ticking on final Brexit, during which time the UK and EU would only sort out disentangling politically; once Brexit actually happens, then trade negotiations begin. It has to wait until then because "EU law forbids trade deals with [its] own members". None of this "spend years thrashing out trade deals before final exit, to avoid the WTO wilderness" bollocks - chalk that up as another Leave porkie.
Canada's deal with the EU has taken several years of talks so far, and isn't done yet. The UK's could easily take as long. In the meantime, the UK economy will be even more utterly screwed. Millions of jobs will go. MPs may be talking about having passed the point of no return on rolling back the result by legal or parliamentary means, but if they sign up to this it'll make a 10% overnight drop in the value of the pound look like nothing.
Yes, the UK will be a laughing stock, the equivalent of that classic George Constanza moment of turning up to a job you just quit - but it's not as if it isn't a laughing stock already. Years of eating humble pie within the EU is better than years of wishing you had something to eat outside it.
posted by rory at 9:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
@MalmstromEU tells me EU/UK trade talks won't start until Art50 exit complete then UK will trade on WTO terms until a deal is done
That's Cecilia Malmström, EU Commissioner in charge of trade policy.
Triggering Article 50 would start the two-year clock ticking on final Brexit, during which time the UK and EU would only sort out disentangling politically; once Brexit actually happens, then trade negotiations begin. It has to wait until then because "EU law forbids trade deals with [its] own members". None of this "spend years thrashing out trade deals before final exit, to avoid the WTO wilderness" bollocks - chalk that up as another Leave porkie.
Canada's deal with the EU has taken several years of talks so far, and isn't done yet. The UK's could easily take as long. In the meantime, the UK economy will be even more utterly screwed. Millions of jobs will go. MPs may be talking about having passed the point of no return on rolling back the result by legal or parliamentary means, but if they sign up to this it'll make a 10% overnight drop in the value of the pound look like nothing.
Yes, the UK will be a laughing stock, the equivalent of that classic George Constanza moment of turning up to a job you just quit - but it's not as if it isn't a laughing stock already. Years of eating humble pie within the EU is better than years of wishing you had something to eat outside it.
posted by rory at 9:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [27 favorites]
@Abiezer - still not following you.
Ann support the Greens as much as Bob supports UKIP - Ann and Bob are both people, the Greens and UKIP are both parties.
Muslims aren't responsible for the so called Islamic State, as Jews aren't responsible for Netanyahu's Israel - Muslims and Jews are both religious groups, the so called Islamic State and Netanyahu's Israel are both... what?
Fill in the blank for me here in some way that it isn't a Very Stupid Thing to say when launching a report on anti-Semitism. The problem's not him saying that British Jews aren't responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, the problem's that somebody let something through to the speech that can easily be misinterpreted as putting Israel into the same category as terrorist organisations.
If you think that's the case, fine, make the argument when talking about the Israeli government and their actions. Don't drop a completely un-related comparison into the launch of a report about anti-Semitism in your party. It's about picking the battlefield to have the fight on.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ann support the Greens as much as Bob supports UKIP - Ann and Bob are both people, the Greens and UKIP are both parties.
Muslims aren't responsible for the so called Islamic State, as Jews aren't responsible for Netanyahu's Israel - Muslims and Jews are both religious groups, the so called Islamic State and Netanyahu's Israel are both... what?
Fill in the blank for me here in some way that it isn't a Very Stupid Thing to say when launching a report on anti-Semitism. The problem's not him saying that British Jews aren't responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, the problem's that somebody let something through to the speech that can easily be misinterpreted as putting Israel into the same category as terrorist organisations.
If you think that's the case, fine, make the argument when talking about the Israeli government and their actions. Don't drop a completely un-related comparison into the launch of a report about anti-Semitism in your party. It's about picking the battlefield to have the fight on.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
EIU Brexit Take
1. Brexit has plunged the UK into political, economic and market turmoil. We expect this turmoil to be sustained
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
1. Brexit has plunged the UK into political, economic and market turmoil. We expect this turmoil to be sustained
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ok. So is your point that UKIP is a terrorist organization, or that ISIS is a democratic country? Because otherwise I have a bit of a problem matching your example with what Corbyn said.
Both my analogy and Corbyn's analogy are (roughly speaking) instantiations of the following schema: the relation R between a and x is as strong as the relation R between b and y.* This schema does not imply any (non-trivial) similarity between x and y. In the case of my analogy, the relation was supports, a was Ann, b was Bob, x was the Greens, and y was UKIP. In the case of Corbyn's analogy, the relation was is responsible for the actions of, a was British Jews, b was British Muslims, x was Israel, and y was ISIS.
* I assume that the strength of certain relations can compared in an obvious way. For example, the relation of liking which holds between me and yogurt is stronger than the relation of liking which holds between me and quinoa.
posted by Abelian Grape at 9:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Both my analogy and Corbyn's analogy are (roughly speaking) instantiations of the following schema: the relation R between a and x is as strong as the relation R between b and y.* This schema does not imply any (non-trivial) similarity between x and y. In the case of my analogy, the relation was supports, a was Ann, b was Bob, x was the Greens, and y was UKIP. In the case of Corbyn's analogy, the relation was is responsible for the actions of, a was British Jews, b was British Muslims, x was Israel, and y was ISIS.
* I assume that the strength of certain relations can compared in an obvious way. For example, the relation of liking which holds between me and yogurt is stronger than the relation of liking which holds between me and quinoa.
posted by Abelian Grape at 9:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
If Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland do form a new country, clearly the name should be The United Kingdom.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:25 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:25 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Untied Kingdom
posted by Grangousier at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
@Abiezer - still not following you.
I mean he's confident that reasonable people will be able to interpret for themselves what he meant and will also not be impressed by cheap attempts to claim he's doing something he's not. Which works out well for him on both sides.
posted by Abiezer at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean he's confident that reasonable people will be able to interpret for themselves what he meant and will also not be impressed by cheap attempts to claim he's doing something he's not. Which works out well for him on both sides.
posted by Abiezer at 9:26 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rory: BBC Newsnight staffer Mark Urban is tweeting some sobering stuff on the prospect of a Brexit Britain striking a trade deal with the EU:
@MalmstromEU tells me EU/UK trade talks won't start until Art50 exit complete then UK will trade on WTO terms until a deal is done
That's Cecilia Malmström, EU Commissioner in charge of trade policy.
Fuck me, that's terrifying, and terrifyingly realistic sounding.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
@MalmstromEU tells me EU/UK trade talks won't start until Art50 exit complete then UK will trade on WTO terms until a deal is done
That's Cecilia Malmström, EU Commissioner in charge of trade policy.
Fuck me, that's terrifying, and terrifyingly realistic sounding.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
If Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland do form a new country, clearly the name should be The United Kingdom.
Surely they'd be a republic? So an Unkingdom.
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surely they'd be a republic? So an Unkingdom.
posted by Artw at 9:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
This schema does not imply any (non-trivial) similarity between x and y.
The problem is that quite a few people would say it does (including reasonable ones), which is why it's an incredibly daft schema to use for something contentious even if you think it doesn't.
Stepping back from that just slightly, I'll just go back to there was no need for him to mention 'the so called Islamic State' at the launch of a report on anti-Semitism.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:34 AM on June 30, 2016
The problem is that quite a few people would say it does (including reasonable ones), which is why it's an incredibly daft schema to use for something contentious even if you think it doesn't.
Stepping back from that just slightly, I'll just go back to there was no need for him to mention 'the so called Islamic State' at the launch of a report on anti-Semitism.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:34 AM on June 30, 2016
This is the moment Jewish Labour MP Ruth Smeeth was accused of colluding with the right-wing press by Momentum activist and former Guardian writer Marc Wadsworth at this morning’s Corbyn anti-Semitism event.
posted by My Dad at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by My Dad at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
@MalmstromEU tells me EU/UK trade talks won't start until Art50 exit complete then UK will trade on WTO terms until a deal is done
It seems to me this would make the act of invoking Article 50 politically impossible, unless someone gets elected on the specific promise that they will immediately invoke Article 50. They will just have to keep kicking the can down the road until everyone forgets about it. So, this could be great news!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2016
It seems to me this would make the act of invoking Article 50 politically impossible, unless someone gets elected on the specific promise that they will immediately invoke Article 50. They will just have to keep kicking the can down the road until everyone forgets about it. So, this could be great news!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:35 AM on June 30, 2016
The thing about the minefield that is the far left position on Israel is that the anti-semitic elements seem emboldened and supported by the lack of unequivocal condemnation from those who consider Israel's actions in Palestine to be abhorrent.
Corbyn is right in what he is saying but even a neutral position looks strident when contrasted with the default establishment position of pro-Israel. From my experience this causes frustration to those on the left ("why can't we talk about the horrors inflicted on the Palestinians") who feel the narrative is too heavily weighted in favour of Israel. This then leads to them sharing a platform with some people who hold seriously vile views because they're the only ones willing to hear this side. The fact they are so obviously glomming on to a pro-Palestinian position for anti-semitic reasons is where the naivete of people like Corbyn can seem to be disingenuous. After a certain point it's irrelevant if it is disingenuous as you've lost the benefit of the doubt with most people.
The pro-Israel lobby is genuinely powerful and does drive the narrative but as frustrating as this is, if you are fighting for the cause of dead palestinian kids, you must be vigilant about those around you because, well, because sometimes they're fucking Nazis. Like a Lexit vote which ignores the shitelords on the far right, sometimes winning the argument is not worth associating with those who you are surrounded by.
This is why we can't havenice things I/P threads.
posted by fullerine at 9:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Corbyn is right in what he is saying but even a neutral position looks strident when contrasted with the default establishment position of pro-Israel. From my experience this causes frustration to those on the left ("why can't we talk about the horrors inflicted on the Palestinians") who feel the narrative is too heavily weighted in favour of Israel. This then leads to them sharing a platform with some people who hold seriously vile views because they're the only ones willing to hear this side. The fact they are so obviously glomming on to a pro-Palestinian position for anti-semitic reasons is where the naivete of people like Corbyn can seem to be disingenuous. After a certain point it's irrelevant if it is disingenuous as you've lost the benefit of the doubt with most people.
The pro-Israel lobby is genuinely powerful and does drive the narrative but as frustrating as this is, if you are fighting for the cause of dead palestinian kids, you must be vigilant about those around you because, well, because sometimes they're fucking Nazis. Like a Lexit vote which ignores the shitelords on the far right, sometimes winning the argument is not worth associating with those who you are surrounded by.
This is why we can't have
posted by fullerine at 9:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
United Queendom, technically, and accurate for a few more years one hopes.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:37 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:37 AM on June 30, 2016
@MalmstromEU tells me EU/UK trade talks won't start until Art50 exit complete then UK will trade on WTO terms until a deal is done
Urban's not clear whether the UK simply can't sign a trade deal while a member of the EU, or isn't lawfully allowed to negotiate one. I can understand why the former is the case but the latter makes no sense.
At this point, if a Prime Minister wished to carry out leaving the EU the best thing to do would be to refuse invoking Article 50 for as long as possible. Article 50 is the UK's hostage, more or less. Given that May (she'll be the next Prime Minister) could have until early 2020 to invoke the article, the EU will likely surrender before then. They are likely to face another populist crisis within four years and need the example of the UK to scare people with.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:38 AM on June 30, 2016
Urban's not clear whether the UK simply can't sign a trade deal while a member of the EU, or isn't lawfully allowed to negotiate one. I can understand why the former is the case but the latter makes no sense.
At this point, if a Prime Minister wished to carry out leaving the EU the best thing to do would be to refuse invoking Article 50 for as long as possible. Article 50 is the UK's hostage, more or less. Given that May (she'll be the next Prime Minister) could have until early 2020 to invoke the article, the EU will likely surrender before then. They are likely to face another populist crisis within four years and need the example of the UK to scare people with.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:38 AM on June 30, 2016
Fuck me, that's terrifying, and terrifyingly realistic sounding.
Yeah, I was a bit cautious in using the word "sobering". "Terrifying" is much more like it.
When I wrote "Yes, the UK will be a laughing stock" I should have inserted "if Parliament blocks the referendum result", which is what I desperately hope will happen. I'm just not convinced that there are enough clear heads in Parliament right now, given the evidence of the past week.
There would of course be terrible political fallout with Leavers who feel that their democratic will has been thwarted. So be it.
And to think that Cameron could have avoided all this had he taken Sturgeon's advice on requiring a majority in each region as well as a majority overall. Or set the bar at a majority of all those registered to vote, rather than a majority of voters on the day. Either would have been just as "democratic", and neither would have led us here.
Yep, worst PM since Chamberlain, against some pretty stiff competition.
posted by rory at 9:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I was a bit cautious in using the word "sobering". "Terrifying" is much more like it.
When I wrote "Yes, the UK will be a laughing stock" I should have inserted "if Parliament blocks the referendum result", which is what I desperately hope will happen. I'm just not convinced that there are enough clear heads in Parliament right now, given the evidence of the past week.
There would of course be terrible political fallout with Leavers who feel that their democratic will has been thwarted. So be it.
And to think that Cameron could have avoided all this had he taken Sturgeon's advice on requiring a majority in each region as well as a majority overall. Or set the bar at a majority of all those registered to vote, rather than a majority of voters on the day. Either would have been just as "democratic", and neither would have led us here.
Yep, worst PM since Chamberlain, against some pretty stiff competition.
posted by rory at 9:38 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Even worse than Chamberlain. Chamberlain didn't invent Hitler out of thin air.
posted by Grangousier at 9:40 AM on June 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:40 AM on June 30, 2016 [18 favorites]
What if the new PM says "The will of the people should be respected, but this is a complex process and my government will not be able to invoke Article 50 within the next 5 years because it would put Britain at a disadvantage". And just keeps saying that every year. Then the markets will get the message that Brexit isn't actually happening.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Tzipi Livni, an Israeli politician:
"Corbyn's words imply a serious lack of moral judgement. Just as all Muslims are not to blame for ISIS, not all Brits are to blame for Corbyn"
I do think there's a problem with equating the democratically elected government of Israel, much as I may disagree with it on many things, with ISIS. ISIS is something much of the world has committed to wipe off the map. Given the number of people in the world who want Israel (the actual state and its inhabitants, not Netanyahu's government or some of its policies) wiped off the map in the most violent of ways, that's pretty problematic.
And yes, putting Israel and ISIS together in that analogy does imply a certain degree of comparison. The metaphor works because "Jewish friends" and "Muslim friends" are like groups, so surely the other two parts of the metaphor have something to do with each other too, right?
I can certainly charitably understand what Corbyn was trying to say, but given the incredible sensitivity of this issue and the fact that Corbyn and the Labour party have not exactly earned the benefit of the doubt on this issue (after all, he wouldn't be announcing a report on antisemitism in the party he leads if he had earned the benefit of the doubt), it's just idiotic to say it this way. Why would any remotely intelligent person put the State of Israel and ISIS in the same sentence as part of a speech against antisemitism?
It's mind-boggling and simply invites trouble at a time when nobody possibly needs it. It's setting a big dumpster on fire for no reason, looking at the giant tire fire burning all around you, and saying "I'll just put this over here with the rest of the fire."
posted by zachlipton at 9:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
"Corbyn's words imply a serious lack of moral judgement. Just as all Muslims are not to blame for ISIS, not all Brits are to blame for Corbyn"
I do think there's a problem with equating the democratically elected government of Israel, much as I may disagree with it on many things, with ISIS. ISIS is something much of the world has committed to wipe off the map. Given the number of people in the world who want Israel (the actual state and its inhabitants, not Netanyahu's government or some of its policies) wiped off the map in the most violent of ways, that's pretty problematic.
And yes, putting Israel and ISIS together in that analogy does imply a certain degree of comparison. The metaphor works because "Jewish friends" and "Muslim friends" are like groups, so surely the other two parts of the metaphor have something to do with each other too, right?
I can certainly charitably understand what Corbyn was trying to say, but given the incredible sensitivity of this issue and the fact that Corbyn and the Labour party have not exactly earned the benefit of the doubt on this issue (after all, he wouldn't be announcing a report on antisemitism in the party he leads if he had earned the benefit of the doubt), it's just idiotic to say it this way. Why would any remotely intelligent person put the State of Israel and ISIS in the same sentence as part of a speech against antisemitism?
It's mind-boggling and simply invites trouble at a time when nobody possibly needs it. It's setting a big dumpster on fire for no reason, looking at the giant tire fire burning all around you, and saying "I'll just put this over here with the rest of the fire."
posted by zachlipton at 9:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Very much agree with that fullerine, really should be no room for even the impression of ambiguity about anti-Semitism.
That might seem at odds with what I've written before, but I think that in terms of how the wider public will view his remarks it'll go down broadly in his favour as I suggested earlier, in so far as it has much impact at all outside the more wonkish end of the spectrum.
posted by Abiezer at 9:45 AM on June 30, 2016
That might seem at odds with what I've written before, but I think that in terms of how the wider public will view his remarks it'll go down broadly in his favour as I suggested earlier, in so far as it has much impact at all outside the more wonkish end of the spectrum.
posted by Abiezer at 9:45 AM on June 30, 2016
I'd go further to be honest. Corbyn's exhibiting something I see in a lot of far left rhetoric which is a fetishisation of being correct which is dismissive of those who one is championing. Eventually they become mirror images of the ideologically pure on the other side.
Now, I'm not advocating joining the spineless, craven horrors that are the PLP, but sometimes as I said about Bernie, "You're not wrong Jeremy..."
posted by fullerine at 9:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Now, I'm not advocating joining the spineless, craven horrors that are the PLP, but sometimes as I said about Bernie, "You're not wrong Jeremy..."
posted by fullerine at 9:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Does the PLP actually think they can pick an alternate leader who has a chance of winning a general election? Especially after the huge mess their mass resignations have caused? How would anyone think that Labour is fit to run a country at this point. If they were worried about winning a general election and/or keeping their jobs then they would have done well to keep up a unified front, or at least just keep quiet for a couple of days, and let everyone's attention focus solely on the implosion of Tory leadership.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 10:04 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can certainly charitably understand what Corbyn was trying to say, but given the incredible sensitivity of this issue and the fact that Corbyn and the Labour party have not exactly earned the benefit of the doubt on this issue (after all, he wouldn't be announcing a report on antisemitism in the party he leads if he had earned the benefit of the doubt), it's just idiotic to say it this way.
Why be charitable here? Why try to preserve the benefit of the doubt about an anti-Semitic comment in the context of other known anti-Semitism? It's almost like the ability to criticize Israel however one wants to is more important than calling out anti-Semitism. God, am I ever sick of that position, and I'm by no means a supporter of many of the things the Israeli government does.
posted by OmieWise at 10:05 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Why be charitable here? Why try to preserve the benefit of the doubt about an anti-Semitic comment in the context of other known anti-Semitism? It's almost like the ability to criticize Israel however one wants to is more important than calling out anti-Semitism. God, am I ever sick of that position, and I'm by no means a supporter of many of the things the Israeli government does.
posted by OmieWise at 10:05 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
What if the new PM says "The will of the people should be respected, but this is a complex process and my government will not be able to invoke Article 50 within the next 5 years because it would put Britain at a disadvantage". And just keeps saying that every year. Then the markets will get the message that Brexit isn't actually happening.
Then UKIP will stand up every week at Prime Minister's question time and ask why the ruling party does not believe in democracy. And then UKIP will gain more and more seats as the leavers realize that UKIP is the ONLY party in the UK that actually represents them. As UKIP gains more seats, the Tories will splinter. And then you will have a UKIP majority parliament which will trigger article 50 and then also run the country.
You've gone and kicked over the hornets nest; standing around pretending they aren't swarming is not an option.
posted by Chrischris at 10:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Then UKIP will stand up every week at Prime Minister's question time and ask why the ruling party does not believe in democracy. And then UKIP will gain more and more seats as the leavers realize that UKIP is the ONLY party in the UK that actually represents them. As UKIP gains more seats, the Tories will splinter. And then you will have a UKIP majority parliament which will trigger article 50 and then also run the country.
You've gone and kicked over the hornets nest; standing around pretending they aren't swarming is not an option.
posted by Chrischris at 10:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
A far-right party just scored a frighteningly large victory in the UK. Prior to the vote, the proponents of this cause won support by stirring up anti-immigrant fervor, and assassinating a member of parliament who opposed them.
But, please. Let's turn the debate toward a shitty analogy that a Labour guy made one time in a hastily-written speech.
posted by schmod at 10:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
But, please. Let's turn the debate toward a shitty analogy that a Labour guy made one time in a hastily-written speech.
posted by schmod at 10:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
Look, if people want to defend the anti-Semitic analogy, people who care about such things should at least get to point out that it was anti-Semitic, which I guess is another word for shitty.
posted by OmieWise at 10:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 10:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Perhaps we can condemn anti-immigrant hate, the wave of incidents targeting visible minorities on the streets, assassinations, and anti-Semitism all at the same time? Being upset about one of those things doesn't mean we're ok with the others.
posted by zachlipton at 10:19 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 10:19 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
It is kinda relevant. Personally I want an effective opposition in parliament, where it matters. I want a leader that leads, not a representative of the membership who happens to make shitty analogies with regard to Jews in the aftermath of a "everyone on the left is anti-Semitic" poisoning of the waters initiative from those on the right whop want to dismiss him. If it's that easy to do he's no good to anyone during the most important 24 months in the nations modern history.
posted by vbfg at 10:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 10:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The PLP resignations are about Chilcot
They have a week to get rid of Corbyn or a Labour Leader is going to stand up in Parliament and accuse a predecessor of war crimes.
Then we're in full on 80s revival mode.
Starring...
Theresa May as Margaret Thatcher
Jeremy Corbyn as Michael Foot
Angela Eagle as Shirley Williams
Michael O'Leary as Freddie Laker
and introducing Rupert Murdoch as Rupert Murdoch.
It's not all bad though, at least Liverpool will win the Premier League.
posted by fullerine at 10:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
They have a week to get rid of Corbyn or a Labour Leader is going to stand up in Parliament and accuse a predecessor of war crimes.
Then we're in full on 80s revival mode.
Starring...
Theresa May as Margaret Thatcher
Jeremy Corbyn as Michael Foot
Angela Eagle as Shirley Williams
Michael O'Leary as Freddie Laker
and introducing Rupert Murdoch as Rupert Murdoch.
It's not all bad though, at least Liverpool will win the Premier League.
posted by fullerine at 10:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
I'd like to point out, for the Corbyn "the media and the powers that be have it in for him, that's the only reason for opposition" -- I'm outside the UK. I generally don't read your media. I'm occasionally linked to Guardian or BBC pieces, but I'm certainly not immersed in them. My view of Corbyn and the crisis has been through threads like these, and Twitter. In the past few days I've read or watched clear-headed statements and plans by SNP leaders, passionate defenses of Europe from SNP leaders, fierce condemnation of assaults and abuse of immigrants and anyone taken as 'non-English' from SNP, the Labour mayor of London, and others. From Corbyn, I've seen one limp statement against the attacks, and zero plan. And several entirely self-inflicted fuckups.
He and his people have just as much access to twitter and Youtube and Facebook as anyone, and certainly a devoted cadre to publicize such things. There's routes they have beyond the establishment, but they've used them, as far as I can see, primarily to viciously attack those they regard as traitors to personal allegiance to Corbyn. There seems to be absolutely no acknowledgement that maybe some of that 80 percent of Labour MPs are not secret 'Blairite' plotters and think he's been a shit leader in a moment of crisis and are desperate for someone better.
posted by tavella at 10:32 AM on June 30, 2016 [21 favorites]
He and his people have just as much access to twitter and Youtube and Facebook as anyone, and certainly a devoted cadre to publicize such things. There's routes they have beyond the establishment, but they've used them, as far as I can see, primarily to viciously attack those they regard as traitors to personal allegiance to Corbyn. There seems to be absolutely no acknowledgement that maybe some of that 80 percent of Labour MPs are not secret 'Blairite' plotters and think he's been a shit leader in a moment of crisis and are desperate for someone better.
posted by tavella at 10:32 AM on June 30, 2016 [21 favorites]
SATs:analogies::this thread:Corbyn's analogy
I.e., drop it
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I.e., drop it
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:33 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Christ on a cracker let's please not go full-on I/P Thread in here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:42 AM on June 30, 2016 [35 favorites]
UKIP will gain more and more seats as the leavers realize that UKIP is the ONLY party in the UK that actually represents them. As UKIP gains more seats, the Tories will splinter. And then you will have a UKIP majority parliament which will trigger article 50 and then also run the country.
Which is why Parliament has to do the other thing they would normally be extremely reluctant to do, and vote to adopt proportional representation ahead of the next election. Under FTFP, yes, we're facing a serious UKIP threat whatever happens around Britain's EU status. But PR will slow them down.
Some people might be thinking we'd need a referendum to do that, because we had one on AV, but that isn't true. The AV referendum was the Tories' way of killing the proposal and shafting their new coalition partners in the process - it wasn't actually necessary. They could have just passed an AV Act. Same for PR. (AV would keep UKIP at bay too, but having had that AV referendum recently it wouldn't be politically feasible.)
Still, file this under "Parliament in disarray, it'll never happen". We're doomed.
posted by rory at 10:44 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Which is why Parliament has to do the other thing they would normally be extremely reluctant to do, and vote to adopt proportional representation ahead of the next election. Under FTFP, yes, we're facing a serious UKIP threat whatever happens around Britain's EU status. But PR will slow them down.
Some people might be thinking we'd need a referendum to do that, because we had one on AV, but that isn't true. The AV referendum was the Tories' way of killing the proposal and shafting their new coalition partners in the process - it wasn't actually necessary. They could have just passed an AV Act. Same for PR. (AV would keep UKIP at bay too, but having had that AV referendum recently it wouldn't be politically feasible.)
Still, file this under "Parliament in disarray, it'll never happen". We're doomed.
posted by rory at 10:44 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The PLP resignations are about Chilcot
They have a week to get rid of Corbyn or a Labour Leader is going to stand up in Parliament and accuse a predecessor of war crimes.
It's not often I agree with Joe in Australia, but his assessment below appears spot on.
""My mental image is a tweedy guy standing near the despatch boxes, bleating about a terrible tragedy. A few "hear hears" from behind him mostly outweigh the uncomfortable looks from many of his colleagues. A clip appears on the news ... a photo in The Guardian ... the rest is silence.""
Do you really think the only reason that the PLP is committing suicide is so that the above event is prevented?
posted by lalochezia at 10:45 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
tavella - he's clearly reaching someone as membership is booming (faster than the Lib Dems pro-EU boost "one-a-minute" which was deemed worthy of a short news piece). They'll vote for him and it's not out of personal allegiance (I certainly have none) but because of the potential future for the Labour Party that he happens to currently represent. The alternative is business as usual and none of the main movers for that could even bring themselves to vote against the welfare bill last year.
posted by Abiezer at 10:45 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by Abiezer at 10:45 AM on June 30, 2016
The PLP resignations are about Chilcot
Yes it's their last chance to stop Lisa Nandy and Ed Miliband from being dragged off in chains to a war crimes tribunal.
posted by Mocata at 10:46 AM on June 30, 2016
Yes it's their last chance to stop Lisa Nandy and Ed Miliband from being dragged off in chains to a war crimes tribunal.
posted by Mocata at 10:46 AM on June 30, 2016
This is a silly question, but does anybody have any idea where the "£350m for the NHS" bus is right now? Because there's some serious potential for antics if they haven't painted that thing over by now.
posted by zachlipton at 10:46 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 10:46 AM on June 30, 2016
This is a silly question, but does anybody have any idea where the "£350m for the NHS" bus is right now? Because there's some serious potential for antics if they haven't painted that thing over by now
You're too late. Dominic Cummings ate it to conceal the evidence.
posted by Mocata at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
You're too late. Dominic Cummings ate it to conceal the evidence.
posted by Mocata at 10:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Is there any chance the Tories would trigger an early election? I suppose the answer is, probably not this week, all bets are off for next week...
posted by asok at 10:57 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by asok at 10:57 AM on June 30, 2016
This is going to end up with someone saying "Look, it doesn't say anywhere that a dog can't be Prime Minister!", isn't it.
posted by Etrigan at 11:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 11:07 AM on June 30, 2016 [16 favorites]
"Please come inside, sir, you're not an outside Prime Minister!"
posted by zombieflanders at 11:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 11:11 AM on June 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Watching Gove on BBC news saying how he had to run because Boris doesn't have what it takes made me throw up in my mouth a little. He's so very odious. May has it sewn up, gawd help us.
posted by billiebee at 11:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 11:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is going to end up with someone saying "Look, it doesn't say anywhere that a dog can't be Prime Minister!", isn't it.
A benefit of an unwritten Constitution.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
A benefit of an unwritten Constitution.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:23 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
You really have to be an MP to become PM. And MPs must be a British, Commonwealth, or Irish citizen over the age of 18. Very few animals have been granted citizenship of any country, and most animals are less than 18 years old. So, Malala Yousafzai yes, Buster the Pug no.
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:30 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:30 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Police report fivefold rise in race-hate complaints since Brexit result
Complaints filed to a police online hate-crime reporting site True Vision have increased fivefold since last Thursday, the National Police Chiefs Council said, with 331 hate crime incidents reported to the site compared with a weekly average of 63.
posted by dng at 11:34 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Complaints filed to a police online hate-crime reporting site True Vision have increased fivefold since last Thursday, the National Police Chiefs Council said, with 331 hate crime incidents reported to the site compared with a weekly average of 63.
posted by dng at 11:34 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Surely "dog years" count?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:34 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:34 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
and most animals are less than 18 years old.
Parrots, tortoises, elderly cats, there's a lot of options left on the table there
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Parrots, tortoises, elderly cats, there's a lot of options left on the table there
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Parrots, tortoises, elderly cats, there's a lot of options left on the table there
And many more attractive than the current options.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
And many more attractive than the current options.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
So, let me get this straight... the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they'd all done nothing to help them.
Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.
Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.
Clear?
(Its a copy and paste job).
posted by adamvasco at 11:47 AM on June 30, 2016 [51 favorites]
Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.
Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.
Clear?
(Its a copy and paste job).
posted by adamvasco at 11:47 AM on June 30, 2016 [51 favorites]
Surely they'd be a republic? So an Unkingdom.
The Unkingdom of Great Ireland and Northern Britain, I presume.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:50 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
The Unkingdom of Great Ireland and Northern Britain, I presume.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:50 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
A romping good tsle...
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:51 AM on June 30, 2016
Even the most sophisticated of wife-swapping parties can end in tears. The Conservative annual fundraiser at the Hurlingham Club had started so well. Car keys had been flung into a solid silver bowl and leavers and remainers were happily getting off with one another. “I know I called you a duplicitous, lying moron during the referendum campaign,” they cooed to one another, “but deep down, darling, you know I’ve always fancied you.” The champagne flowed, the beds bounced, the sheets squelched.John Crace
Then in walked Sarah Vine, Michael Gove’s wife...
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:51 AM on June 30, 2016
This just in from the Monster Raving Loony Party
In a hurried statement today ‘Nick the Flying Brick’ party Treasurer and Shadow Minister for the ‘Abolition of Gravity’ stated categorically that the ‘Official Monster Raving Loony Party’ have had no resignations and have no plans for a leadership contest.
Monster Raving Loony Party: The stability you need, the leadership you can count on.
posted by PenDevil at 11:51 AM on June 30, 2016 [24 favorites]
In a hurried statement today ‘Nick the Flying Brick’ party Treasurer and Shadow Minister for the ‘Abolition of Gravity’ stated categorically that the ‘Official Monster Raving Loony Party’ have had no resignations and have no plans for a leadership contest.
Monster Raving Loony Party: The stability you need, the leadership you can count on.
posted by PenDevil at 11:51 AM on June 30, 2016 [24 favorites]
So far I can only find Sir Nils Olav who would be eligible, despite being a non-human animal, to become Prime Minister. Sir Nils is clearly regarded as being a person--given his honours--was born in Scotland, and seems to be over 18. No word yet on his party affiliation, however, and he refuses to disclose his thoughts on Brexit.
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:55 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:55 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
As far as I know, a trade deal doesn't exist until it's signed, so negotiations can go on whenever you like - you just can't activate a deal until the member state isn't a member state.
But I don't know the letter of the EU law.
posted by Devonian at 11:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I don't know the letter of the EU law.
posted by Devonian at 11:58 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
No word yet on his party affiliation
Ukippers?
and he refuses to disclose his thoughts on Brexit
I would guess he's a fan of the Nordic option.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:00 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ukippers?
and he refuses to disclose his thoughts on Brexit
I would guess he's a fan of the Nordic option.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:00 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
The idea of Gove as PM is horrifying. This is the best cartoon about why.
posted by Len at 12:00 PM on June 30, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by Len at 12:00 PM on June 30, 2016 [24 favorites]
This morning’s meeting was one of the most extraordinarily appalling events in the history of the Labour Party. — Stephen Pollard.
posted by My Dad at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by My Dad at 12:04 PM on June 30, 2016
The idea of Gove as PM is horrifying. This is the best cartoon about why.
Somehow I had forgotten the resemblance to Pob.
posted by Emma May Smith at 12:06 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Somehow I had forgotten the resemblance to Pob.
posted by Emma May Smith at 12:06 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
"So, let me get this straight... the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they'd all done nothing to help them.
Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.
Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful. "
The Aristocrats!
posted by I-baLL at 12:16 PM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn't lose, did - but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who'd always thought he'd lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash - and he was, but it did, but he's not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can't become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.
Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party's view of this view is the opposite of the opposition's. And the opposition aren't yet opposing anything because the leader isn't listening to his party, who aren't listening to the country, who aren't listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there's not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful. "
The Aristocrats!
posted by I-baLL at 12:16 PM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
The Remain campaign ads that got nixed by Number 10.
posted by Devonian at 12:17 PM on June 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 12:17 PM on June 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
This morning’s meeting was one of the most extraordinarily appalling events in the history of the Labour Party. — Stephen Pollard.
Stephen Pollard, whose other article in the daily torygraph is entitled "The left's hatred of jews chills me to the bone" which leads with a picture of Auschwitz. Real balanced guy there.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/the-lefts-hatred-of-jews-chills-me-to-the-bone/
posted by lalochezia at 12:18 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
He may be thinking of what antisemitism and talk of "conspiracy" will ultimately lead to. It happened before, and it can happen again.
posted by My Dad at 12:22 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by My Dad at 12:22 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Abiezer: he's clearly reaching someone as membership is booming (faster than the Lib Dems pro-EU boost "one-a-minute" which was deemed worthy of a short news piece). They'll vote for him and it's not out of personal allegiance (I certainly have none) but because of the potential future for the Labour Party that he happens to currently represent. The alternative is business as usual and none of the main movers for that could even bring themselves to vote against the welfare bill last year.
"potential future for the Labour Party" - so there is not a single other Labour MP that advocates this future? If you think Corbyn is the only one who can do it, then I find that indistinguishable from personal loyalty/cult of personality. And again, where's the plan? This future, exactly how does he plan to get there post Brexit vote? Does Corbyn think the Article 50 trigger should be pulled or not? Does he plan to reject the referendum if he comes to power? Hold another? Is he going to push for a snap election so that people can vote on MPs who announce their Leave or Stay position?
How does the party plan to deal with the wave of hatred and attacks it has unleashed? The reason a whole lot of the MPs abstained appears to be that a lot of people, including their voters, were demanding benefit cuts. If Scotland leaves because of Brexit, those are a whole lot of the people Labour is going to have to appeal to to actually win. Not just people willing to pay 3 pounds to vote to protect Corbyn.
And again, the fact that it always seems to be a whole lot of pointing outward and blaming everyone else for Corbyn's failures, with absolutely no acknowledgement that he's maybe done a shit job. And if you can't acknowledge failures, you sure as hell aren't going to improve.
posted by tavella at 12:23 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
"potential future for the Labour Party" - so there is not a single other Labour MP that advocates this future? If you think Corbyn is the only one who can do it, then I find that indistinguishable from personal loyalty/cult of personality. And again, where's the plan? This future, exactly how does he plan to get there post Brexit vote? Does Corbyn think the Article 50 trigger should be pulled or not? Does he plan to reject the referendum if he comes to power? Hold another? Is he going to push for a snap election so that people can vote on MPs who announce their Leave or Stay position?
How does the party plan to deal with the wave of hatred and attacks it has unleashed? The reason a whole lot of the MPs abstained appears to be that a lot of people, including their voters, were demanding benefit cuts. If Scotland leaves because of Brexit, those are a whole lot of the people Labour is going to have to appeal to to actually win. Not just people willing to pay 3 pounds to vote to protect Corbyn.
And again, the fact that it always seems to be a whole lot of pointing outward and blaming everyone else for Corbyn's failures, with absolutely no acknowledgement that he's maybe done a shit job. And if you can't acknowledge failures, you sure as hell aren't going to improve.
posted by tavella at 12:23 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Does Corbyn think the Article 50 trigger should be pulled or not?
He said last Friday they should pull it immediately. Safe pair of hands, see.
posted by Mocata at 12:32 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
He said last Friday they should pull it immediately. Safe pair of hands, see.
posted by Mocata at 12:32 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
"potential future for the Labour Party" - so there is not a single other Labour MP that advocates this future? If you think Corbyn is the only one who can do it, then I find that indistinguishable from personal loyalty/cult of personality. And again, where's the plan? This future, exactly how does he plan to get there post Brexit vote? Does Corbyn think the Article 50 trigger should be pulled or not? Does he plan to reject the referendum if he comes to power? Hold another? Is he going to push for a snap election so that people can vote on MPs who announce their Leave or Stay position?
No there's about forty at the last count. The plan is to have a more democratic party that sets policies the membership and affiliated unions want.
Not sure why I should acknowledge he's done a shit job if I don't think he has. He delivered about the same percentage of his supporters' votes for remain as St Nicola Sturgeon of Scotland. He's of course a bit of a seventies throwback with all that entails but the mere fact that he has a bit of integrity and substance sets him apart from a wide swathe of the rest of the field - something the membership widely agree with me on.
You've admitted you're looking in from the outside and I couldn't give a toss if you want to frame it in terms of personalities, I never have. It's actually the coming to the surface of long-standing tensions within the party about its direction and purpose and he represents the side I'm on.
posted by Abiezer at 12:47 PM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
No there's about forty at the last count. The plan is to have a more democratic party that sets policies the membership and affiliated unions want.
Not sure why I should acknowledge he's done a shit job if I don't think he has. He delivered about the same percentage of his supporters' votes for remain as St Nicola Sturgeon of Scotland. He's of course a bit of a seventies throwback with all that entails but the mere fact that he has a bit of integrity and substance sets him apart from a wide swathe of the rest of the field - something the membership widely agree with me on.
You've admitted you're looking in from the outside and I couldn't give a toss if you want to frame it in terms of personalities, I never have. It's actually the coming to the surface of long-standing tensions within the party about its direction and purpose and he represents the side I'm on.
posted by Abiezer at 12:47 PM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can't see any hope in the Labour Party. I sort of prefer Corbyn on the basis of him winning the election and what I think is largely the illusion of offering an alternative but I cant see that any one in the party has proposed anything that makes sense in dealing with reuniting their disparate former core vote. Clearly one half of the party are prepared to fuck over anyone who actually might give a shit about not being as close to the centre of UK politics as possible, and they have the ear of part of the media. The rest of the media are committed to making the whole Labour Party look like dicks, and both halves seem to be compliant with that motive.
Frankly I can't see me ever returning to voting Labour after the latest fuckwittery. With the LibDem betrayal of the last government it basically leaves no one with anything to offer in the mainstream.
posted by biffa at 12:58 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Frankly I can't see me ever returning to voting Labour after the latest fuckwittery. With the LibDem betrayal of the last government it basically leaves no one with anything to offer in the mainstream.
posted by biffa at 12:58 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you think this week has been turbulent, the next six months are going to be a real page-turner. Two leadership elections in the coming months, probably another Parliamentary election… and if Theresa May becomes PM she says she won't invoke Article 50 until at least the end of this calendar year. And in between there'll be nothing to do except to analyze and commentate on every tiny development.
It'd be like if Trump won in November: not a one-time awful thing, but a renewable resource, each day lighting a new dumpster on fire.
As self-inflicted wounds go, this is less like shooting yourself in the foot and more like luring a pack of rabid wolves into your studio apartment.
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:02 PM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
It'd be like if Trump won in November: not a one-time awful thing, but a renewable resource, each day lighting a new dumpster on fire.
As self-inflicted wounds go, this is less like shooting yourself in the foot and more like luring a pack of rabid wolves into your studio apartment.
posted by savetheclocktower at 1:02 PM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Interesting editorial from a Catalan publication, pointing out that the only immutable laws are those of physics - everything else is negotiable... (Google Translate)
Because Europe, despite what it actually represents is full of grays. Cyprus is the case especially with the whole country by the Union but outside the northern EU law and therefore outside the freedoms of movement, to avoid precisely the problem or whether it is independent no. Greenland and the Faroe Islands does not belong, but are in Denmark, that do part. In the case of the vast Arctic island, it entitles European citizens and in the Faroe no. Aland islands, a very interesting case, part of Finland, but have a unique model of belonging to the Union, which allows the four freedoms are applied but also preserve privileges for its inhabitants incompatible with the common law EU agrees that the situation for political reasons. And there is nothing incompatible with European standards a Union territory where women can not access it? This is the case of monastic republic of Mount Athos, in Greece, and it respects this absurd particularity. We could continue to list. From Campione d'Italia, a city Lombard yes, a city that is never more than the Swiss franc as legal currency and is therefore excluded from taxation and customs union, to Ceuta and Melilla. Or more exotic cases, such as the Channel Islands, where the inhabitants have European citizenship and a British passport but no access to freedom of movement; or the case of Gibraltar, which Spain is struggling to rest outside the EU.
posted by Devonian at 1:03 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Because Europe, despite what it actually represents is full of grays. Cyprus is the case especially with the whole country by the Union but outside the northern EU law and therefore outside the freedoms of movement, to avoid precisely the problem or whether it is independent no. Greenland and the Faroe Islands does not belong, but are in Denmark, that do part. In the case of the vast Arctic island, it entitles European citizens and in the Faroe no. Aland islands, a very interesting case, part of Finland, but have a unique model of belonging to the Union, which allows the four freedoms are applied but also preserve privileges for its inhabitants incompatible with the common law EU agrees that the situation for political reasons. And there is nothing incompatible with European standards a Union territory where women can not access it? This is the case of monastic republic of Mount Athos, in Greece, and it respects this absurd particularity. We could continue to list. From Campione d'Italia, a city Lombard yes, a city that is never more than the Swiss franc as legal currency and is therefore excluded from taxation and customs union, to Ceuta and Melilla. Or more exotic cases, such as the Channel Islands, where the inhabitants have European citizenship and a British passport but no access to freedom of movement; or the case of Gibraltar, which Spain is struggling to rest outside the EU.
posted by Devonian at 1:03 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
so American markets have just about bounced back from Brexit in just about a week.
posted by zutalors! at 1:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by zutalors! at 1:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ladies and gentlemen, one of these people will be the next PM
posted by lalochezia at 1:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 1:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
lalochezia: Where outside the Tory party could you find 4 people who make Theresa May look like the same option?
posted by biffa at 1:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 1:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Somehow I had forgotten the resemblance to Pob.
Don't be so rude! Pobs have feelings too.
posted by billiebee at 1:20 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't be so rude! Pobs have feelings too.
posted by billiebee at 1:20 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thanks to Devonian's comment / link, I found this Wikipedia article on the EU's special territories and the exceptions carved out for them. Quite interesting and quite complicated.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:33 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by honestcoyote at 1:33 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I assume New York will pick up some business in financial services that formerly went through London.
posted by humanfont at 1:37 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by humanfont at 1:37 PM on June 30, 2016
Clearly one half of the party are prepared to fuck over anyone who actually might give a shit about not being as close to the centre of UK politics as possible
One half of the party has a bad memory of being out of power for *18* years because the left of the Labour party would not get a grip and agree to an election manifesto that the rest of the country (rightly or wrongly) didn’t regard as utterly bonkers.
It does not matter how right-on your policies are if the rest of the country doesn’t believe that they make any sense & if you treat anyone who disagrees with you as beyond the pale and to be scorned, well you get the election results you might expect.
Now, that half of the party could be wrong this time around! Maybe the country has moved to the left & is ready to elect Corbyn & his mates! All things are possible in this world after all. However, the fears of the centre / right wing of the Labour party that Corbyn will drag them into unelectable territory for a generation are not entirely groundless are they?
posted by pharm at 1:39 PM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
One half of the party has a bad memory of being out of power for *18* years because the left of the Labour party would not get a grip and agree to an election manifesto that the rest of the country (rightly or wrongly) didn’t regard as utterly bonkers.
It does not matter how right-on your policies are if the rest of the country doesn’t believe that they make any sense & if you treat anyone who disagrees with you as beyond the pale and to be scorned, well you get the election results you might expect.
Now, that half of the party could be wrong this time around! Maybe the country has moved to the left & is ready to elect Corbyn & his mates! All things are possible in this world after all. However, the fears of the centre / right wing of the Labour party that Corbyn will drag them into unelectable territory for a generation are not entirely groundless are they?
posted by pharm at 1:39 PM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
With the LibDem betrayal of the last government it basically leaves no one with anything to offer in the mainstream.
Really there should be a early election, but what the fuck is going to happen if they do that with all three parties non-viable and UKIP having shot it's wad? Complete takeover by far right populists even worse than UKIP? Nothing good, anyway.
posted by Artw at 1:45 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Really there should be a early election, but what the fuck is going to happen if they do that with all three parties non-viable and UKIP having shot it's wad? Complete takeover by far right populists even worse than UKIP? Nothing good, anyway.
posted by Artw at 1:45 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I assume New York will pick up some business in financial services that formerly went through London.
A reporter on Twitter is saying that it'll be Frankfurt, Paris, and Amsterdam (especially Paris) that benefit according to the deals that are already being floated by the EU. The rest of that Twitter thread is also pretty interesting.
posted by Copronymus at 1:54 PM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
A reporter on Twitter is saying that it'll be Frankfurt, Paris, and Amsterdam (especially Paris) that benefit according to the deals that are already being floated by the EU. The rest of that Twitter thread is also pretty interesting.
posted by Copronymus at 1:54 PM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
It´s a couple of years old now but I think this is worth a listen: Mathematics || Spoken Word by @holliepoetry.
posted by adamvasco at 2:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 2:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
>Ladies and gentlemen, one of these people will be the next PM
From L to R, that's:
Theresa May Have Your Human Rights Disappeared And/Or Shot
Dr Adam Right Werrity Hurts
A Man With The Misfortune To Have The Perfect Face And Perfect Opinions Of Michael Gove
David Blunkett's Beard Goes Rogue
Christine Hamilton
God help us all.
posted by comealongpole at 2:06 PM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
From L to R, that's:
Theresa May Have Your Human Rights Disappeared And/Or Shot
Dr Adam Right Werrity Hurts
A Man With The Misfortune To Have The Perfect Face And Perfect Opinions Of Michael Gove
David Blunkett's Beard Goes Rogue
Christine Hamilton
God help us all.
posted by comealongpole at 2:06 PM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
They could bring Farage on board and make him leader and it wouldn't be too much worse.
posted by Artw at 2:40 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by Artw at 2:40 PM on June 30, 2016
I can't imagine how pissed off the people of Scotland must be. How much worse off would an Scotland outside the UK as well as the EU be than a Scotland outside the EU and stuck with an England that just demonstrably threw them under the bus? And as much as Spain and France et al don't want to encourage seperatist movements, doesn't letting Scotland in count for something as sweet, sweet revenge against England?
posted by 3urypteris at 2:42 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by 3urypteris at 2:42 PM on June 30, 2016
Absolute genius Guardian comment from a week ago
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:57 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:57 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Are you involved in a plot to get that comment linked to a million times or something?
posted by Grangousier at 3:01 PM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:01 PM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Now, that half of the party could be wrong this time around! Maybe the country has moved to the left & is ready to elect Corbyn & his mates! All things are possible in this world after all. However, the fears of the centre / right wing of the Labour party that Corbyn will drag them into unelectable territory for a generation are not entirely groundless are they?
If the Tories and UKIP split votes in enough districts then Labour can come up the centre and win, or form some kind of loose pro-Remain consensus coalition with SNP and the Northern Ireland parties. Assuming that Scotland stays....
If one or the other of (Conservative / UKIP) consolidates the Leave coalition then Labour has no chance regardless of what side they lean to.
I think it's a race to see which side can consolidate first. The axis in the UK (and, I fear, across the West) has finally, dizzyingly rotated from liberal-conservative to isolationist-internationalist. Whoever can build a new coalition in that landscape before the government falls is the winner.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:03 PM on June 30, 2016
If the Tories and UKIP split votes in enough districts then Labour can come up the centre and win, or form some kind of loose pro-Remain consensus coalition with SNP and the Northern Ireland parties. Assuming that Scotland stays....
If one or the other of (Conservative / UKIP) consolidates the Leave coalition then Labour has no chance regardless of what side they lean to.
I think it's a race to see which side can consolidate first. The axis in the UK (and, I fear, across the West) has finally, dizzyingly rotated from liberal-conservative to isolationist-internationalist. Whoever can build a new coalition in that landscape before the government falls is the winner.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:03 PM on June 30, 2016
There is no question I will invoke the act of actually reading this thread in the coming months and years
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:03 PM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:03 PM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Brexit: a disaster decades in the making
Everything had changed – we had decided to end a more than 40-year relationship with our continental partners and the consequences were far-reaching. In Scotland independence was once again in play; in Westminster, resignations from the shadow cabinet came by the hour; in the City, billions were wiped off by the day. Indeed, one of the few things that didn’t budge was the very issue that had prompted it all: our membership of the European Union. The only thing we know for sure is that we don’t know how and when we will actually leave it. We are simultaneously in freefall and at a standstill, in a moment of intense and collective disorientation. We don’t know what is happening and it is happening very fast.posted by the man of twists and turns at 3:03 PM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
But the only thing worse than the result and its consequences is the poisonous atmosphere that made it possible. The standard of our political discourse has fallen more precipitously than the pound and cannot be revived as easily. This did not happen overnight, and the sorry conduct of the referendum campaign was only the latest indication of the decrepit state of our politics: dominated by shameless appeals to fear, as though hope were a currency barely worth trading in, the British public had no such thing as a better nature, and a brighter future held no appeal. Xenophobia – no longer closeted, parsed or packaged, but naked, bold and brazen – was given free rein. A week before the referendum, an MP was murdered in the street. When the man accused of killing her was asked his name in court he said: “Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.”
On the day after the referendum, many Britons woke up with the feeling – some for better, some for worse – that they were suddenly living in a different country. But it is not a different country: what brought us here has been brewing for a very long time.
I can't imagine how pissed off the people of Scotland must be
The Juno spacecraft was due to enter Jupiter orbit on July 4. NASA now reports that it will be delyaed by a day, due to the massive gravitational pull exerted by the zetatonnage mass of the Scottish Pissed-Offness. that has spontaneously appeared.
And my friends in Edinburgh, the married French-English couple with a small child, are now looking at the fact that, if the UK Government applies the same rules to them as they have to non-EU immigrants, they will have to emigrate to France. Unless, of course, France applies reciprocal rules, in which case they will have to separate and will only be able to visit each other. The EU citizen member of the pair, further, is now not expecting to be able to apply for any worthwhile jobs - because who's going to hire someone who, at some random point in the future, may well lose the right to reside? And of course, without a good job, you can't qualify for residency rules.
All that was May's work, btw. So, yeah, if you wish to keep back a few extra drops of venom in your venom sac, there's a suggestion for you.
Talking to friends in London, they point out that - ok, Brexit was a reaction to social disconnection and abandonment of whole swathes of people. Fixing those problems - which were absolutely known to everyone in power who supported Leave, and all of whom MUST have known it was a gigantic con-job - would have come with a far smaller bill and with infinitely better consequences. But when the economy tanks, they won't be fixable at all.
And we have no coherent opposition. In Scotland, where we have a sane government, we have no power.
I, Am. So. Angry.
posted by Devonian at 3:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [47 favorites]
The Juno spacecraft was due to enter Jupiter orbit on July 4. NASA now reports that it will be delyaed by a day, due to the massive gravitational pull exerted by the zetatonnage mass of the Scottish Pissed-Offness. that has spontaneously appeared.
And my friends in Edinburgh, the married French-English couple with a small child, are now looking at the fact that, if the UK Government applies the same rules to them as they have to non-EU immigrants, they will have to emigrate to France. Unless, of course, France applies reciprocal rules, in which case they will have to separate and will only be able to visit each other. The EU citizen member of the pair, further, is now not expecting to be able to apply for any worthwhile jobs - because who's going to hire someone who, at some random point in the future, may well lose the right to reside? And of course, without a good job, you can't qualify for residency rules.
All that was May's work, btw. So, yeah, if you wish to keep back a few extra drops of venom in your venom sac, there's a suggestion for you.
Talking to friends in London, they point out that - ok, Brexit was a reaction to social disconnection and abandonment of whole swathes of people. Fixing those problems - which were absolutely known to everyone in power who supported Leave, and all of whom MUST have known it was a gigantic con-job - would have come with a far smaller bill and with infinitely better consequences. But when the economy tanks, they won't be fixable at all.
And we have no coherent opposition. In Scotland, where we have a sane government, we have no power.
I, Am. So. Angry.
posted by Devonian at 3:04 PM on June 30, 2016 [47 favorites]
We must also be vigilant against subtler and invidious manifestations of this nasty ancient hatred and avoid slipping into its traps by accident or intent.
posted by My Dad at 3:14 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by My Dad at 3:14 PM on June 30, 2016
And my friends in Edinburgh, the married French-English couple with a small child, are now looking at the fact that, if the UK Government applies the same rules to them as they have to non-EU immigrants, they will have to emigrate to France.
I have friends, dual US/French citizens, who already decided over the weekend to come back to the US because Brexit uncertainty.
Self-inflicted brain drain.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:18 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have friends, dual US/French citizens, who already decided over the weekend to come back to the US because Brexit uncertainty.
Self-inflicted brain drain.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:18 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes. We're living in the time between when we drop the mug and the moment it smashes on the floor, not yet broken, but no longer really whole. There still seems to be a possibility that it might just float.
That comment was about the Labour party, but it seems to be applicable across the board.
When I do that, I make a point of replacing it with a nicer mug, but I don't think our political classes think that way.
posted by Grangousier at 3:19 PM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
That comment was about the Labour party, but it seems to be applicable across the board.
When I do that, I make a point of replacing it with a nicer mug, but I don't think our political classes think that way.
posted by Grangousier at 3:19 PM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Some advice I read on Facebook, posted by a friend.
Can we take this mess and turn it into the beginning of something useful?
Is it time for proportional representation?
posted by fizban at 3:27 PM on June 30, 2016
Can we take this mess and turn it into the beginning of something useful?
Is it time for proportional representation?
posted by fizban at 3:27 PM on June 30, 2016
Why did BoJo fold like a shitty poker hand when Gove entered the race? I mean he wasn't expecting to be the only candidate for Tory leader so why throw it in when Gove decided to give it a go?
posted by PenDevil at 3:29 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by PenDevil at 3:29 PM on June 30, 2016
Apparently Borisconi had lunch with Rebekah Wade on Friday, then the News UK building was in lockdown for the afternoon as the Digger was visiting for a strategy meeting. Maybe Johnson got the thumbs down?
It does mean that there is less chance of the UK being run by a Johnson, while the US big noise is a Trump, but what we have lost in comedy value we have gained in many others.
posted by asok at 3:31 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
It does mean that there is less chance of the UK being run by a Johnson, while the US big noise is a Trump, but what we have lost in comedy value we have gained in many others.
posted by asok at 3:31 PM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I assume the leaked (well, the "leaked") email from Michael Gove's wife that made it clear Rupert Murdoch and Paul Dacre weren't going to get behind him frightened him enough he had to run away.
Maybe they had proof he was a liar or something.
posted by dng at 3:33 PM on June 30, 2016
Maybe they had proof he was a liar or something.
posted by dng at 3:33 PM on June 30, 2016
dng, I think we all have proof he is a liar!
posted by kumonoi at 3:39 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kumonoi at 3:39 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
You know when you're reading about the literal fascist coup happening in your country, and you process all the details, but that it's twelve hours later until the actual literal shiver runs through you when you really realise for real what's going on.
This is pretty much my state of mind right now.
posted by vbfg at 3:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is pretty much my state of mind right now.
posted by vbfg at 3:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Shami Chakrabarti talks about her report and what happened at the launch with Ruth Smeeth
posted by catchingsignals at 3:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by catchingsignals at 3:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
So this is the third time he's fired for lying? This time he fired himself, even. Peak Boris.
posted by effbot at 3:44 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by effbot at 3:44 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
On a scale of "awkward comment" at 1 to "Howard Dean scream" at 10, as far as imploding your campaign goes, i don't really see how Corbyn could have toasted himself any harder without actual barnyard animal fornication.
Like, wow, this is going to get beat to death until he's gone.
posted by emptythought at 3:56 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like, wow, this is going to get beat to death until he's gone.
posted by emptythought at 3:56 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it time for proportional representation?
The time for that was 2011, in the previous indicident of Britain throwing itself under a red double decker via referendum.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:25 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
The time for that was 2011, in the previous indicident of Britain throwing itself under a red double decker via referendum.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 4:25 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like, wow, this is going to get beat to death until he's gone.
Nah, portions of his fanclub (*) have constructed various grammar flowcharts to show that he's just a really bad speaker, and Emily Thornberry has already apologized to the Israelis, so it's probably ok.
*) The rest is in Tzipi Livni's twitter feed ranting about how a zionist war criminal should shut up and not say bad things about glorious leader.
posted by effbot at 4:27 PM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nah, portions of his fanclub (*) have constructed various grammar flowcharts to show that he's just a really bad speaker, and Emily Thornberry has already apologized to the Israelis, so it's probably ok.
*) The rest is in Tzipi Livni's twitter feed ranting about how a zionist war criminal should shut up and not say bad things about glorious leader.
posted by effbot at 4:27 PM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pretty sure Corbyn and the MPs that shanked him are locked in a death embrace now, and neither are likely to recover, though the MPs may actually still think this was a good idea.
posted by Artw at 4:46 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by Artw at 4:46 PM on June 30, 2016
he's clearly reaching someone as membership is booming
If you think everyone that's signed up did that to vote for glorious leader, you might be in for a surprise.
If the counter revolutionaries are numerous enough to have impact remains to be seen, though.
As for his supporters, various groups seem to prefer different tactics to save leader; the SWP recommends laying on of hands, mobilising in workplaces and on the streets, and chanting his name; Momentum is more for petitions and buying t-shirts; the Communist Party sees an intensification of class struggle and says counter revolutionaries are acting now since they know leader will win next election, and party will defend glorious socialist leadership of the Labour Party at all costs; while Workers Liberty asks all communists to immediately flood into the Labour party. They have also found the enemy's evil lair.
posted by effbot at 4:51 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you think everyone that's signed up did that to vote for glorious leader, you might be in for a surprise.
If the counter revolutionaries are numerous enough to have impact remains to be seen, though.
As for his supporters, various groups seem to prefer different tactics to save leader; the SWP recommends laying on of hands, mobilising in workplaces and on the streets, and chanting his name; Momentum is more for petitions and buying t-shirts; the Communist Party sees an intensification of class struggle and says counter revolutionaries are acting now since they know leader will win next election, and party will defend glorious socialist leadership of the Labour Party at all costs; while Workers Liberty asks all communists to immediately flood into the Labour party. They have also found the enemy's evil lair.
posted by effbot at 4:51 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
So far I can only find Sir Nils Olav who would be eligible
Sadly, Lance Corporal William Windsor (retired, goat) is just a touch too young to qualify as he was born in 2000.
posted by figurant at 4:52 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sadly, Lance Corporal William Windsor (retired, goat) is just a touch too young to qualify as he was born in 2000.
posted by figurant at 4:52 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, open question, what effect will the Chilcot Report have on next week's doings? How will it play into the current dynamics?
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:53 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:53 PM on June 30, 2016
he's clearly reaching someone as membership is booming
New members may be signing up because they oppose Corbyn, citation.
posted by My Dad at 4:55 PM on June 30, 2016
New members may be signing up because they oppose Corbyn, citation.
posted by My Dad at 4:55 PM on June 30, 2016
As a final note for today, I was a bit optimistic earlier that the arrival of Zlatan would help the UK economy, but it seems the GBP actually dropped a little just after the announcement.
posted by effbot at 4:59 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by effbot at 4:59 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
On a lighter note, the Brexit explanation you've been waiting for from Foil, Arms and Hog.
posted by roolya_boolya at 5:05 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roolya_boolya at 5:05 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why did BoJo fold like a shitty poker hand when Gove entered the race?
>Mr Johnson, feeling “sad, disappointed and betrayed”, according to one source, decided he could not go on.
posted by My Dad at 5:07 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
>Mr Johnson, feeling “sad, disappointed and betrayed”, according to one source, decided he could not go on.
posted by My Dad at 5:07 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Within minutes of Boris standing down, his closest supporters were saying they would now be backing anyone but Gove. Unbelievably, the two men who had campaigned so hard and often so unpleasantly together during the referendum were now engaged in open warfare. Brexit had never been wholly about Brexit. It had been a disguise for a Tory party leadership contest. Thanks for nothing, boys. I hope it was worth it.
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
posted by rocket88 at 5:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
posted by rocket88 at 5:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well, one obvious reason for Johnson to back down once Gove threw his hat in was that with their support divided, both were likely to lose anyway.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:26 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:26 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, open question, what effect will the Chilcot Report have on next week's doings? How will it play into the current dynamics?
It will be a bit of a sideshow. Corbyn is a principled man. In a normal world it should be completely devastating for Blair to be accused of being a war criminal by the leader of his former party. Being teflon Tony it probably won´t stick. Blair has said that he will refuse to accept the findings of Chilcot which is apparantly extremely uncomplimentary and that is why many consider that his team is coordinating attacks on Corbyn.
As The Independent pointed out Imagine if we were going to the polls with Sir John Chilcot’s report fresh in our minds – if it had been published, say, on 6 June rather than 6 July.
Craig Murray: Corbyn had deferred to Blairite pressure not to apologise on behalf of the Labour Party for the Iraq War until Chilcot is published.
For the Labour Right, the moment when Corbyn as Labour leader stands up in parliament and condemns Blair over Iraq, is going to be as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin. It would also destroy Blair’s carefully planned post-Chilcot PR strategy. It is essential to the Blairites that when Chilcot is debated in parliament in two weeks time, Jeremy Corbyn is not in place as Labour leader to speak in the debate.
posted by adamvasco at 5:46 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
It will be a bit of a sideshow. Corbyn is a principled man. In a normal world it should be completely devastating for Blair to be accused of being a war criminal by the leader of his former party. Being teflon Tony it probably won´t stick. Blair has said that he will refuse to accept the findings of Chilcot which is apparantly extremely uncomplimentary and that is why many consider that his team is coordinating attacks on Corbyn.
As The Independent pointed out Imagine if we were going to the polls with Sir John Chilcot’s report fresh in our minds – if it had been published, say, on 6 June rather than 6 July.
Craig Murray: Corbyn had deferred to Blairite pressure not to apologise on behalf of the Labour Party for the Iraq War until Chilcot is published.
For the Labour Right, the moment when Corbyn as Labour leader stands up in parliament and condemns Blair over Iraq, is going to be as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin. It would also destroy Blair’s carefully planned post-Chilcot PR strategy. It is essential to the Blairites that when Chilcot is debated in parliament in two weeks time, Jeremy Corbyn is not in place as Labour leader to speak in the debate.
posted by adamvasco at 5:46 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
There was a Guardian comment I seem to remember seeing linked once or twice about Cameron snookering Boris by resigning without triggering Article 50. I think Boris has picked the one route out that might not destroy him.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:46 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MattWPBS at 5:46 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I'd guess Johnson is entertaining hopes of taking power after whoever takes the PM spot gets destroyed either by refusing to pull the Article 50 trigger (leading to gains by UKIP/its successor) or by the economic turmoil that comes from actual Brexit. He won't be particularly old in 2020.
Of course, in a rational world, his cowardly performance would end his career. And it still might, but after all the UK is apparently a post-factual society, or something.
posted by tavella at 6:05 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Of course, in a rational world, his cowardly performance would end his career. And it still might, but after all the UK is apparently a post-factual society, or something.
posted by tavella at 6:05 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
From outside the Labour party, this whole Chilcot thing seems like a storm in a teacup. A report will be published, it will be damning or not, people will make very impassioned speeches and Blair will look bad but fundamentally nothing of any consequence will happen. Why is this sideshow supposedly tearing the Labour party apart? Fundamentally, who cares if someone says something bad about your former party leader? Or if they don't? There is important, actual work to do, and things are going to hell in a handbasket over a purely symbolic act of political theatre.
Shameful.
posted by Dysk at 6:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Shameful.
posted by Dysk at 6:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
For the Labour Right, the moment when Corbyn as Labour leader stands up in parliament and condemns Blair over Iraq, is going to be as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin.
I'm sorry, this is loonytunes. Even if it weren't overshadowed by the whole Brexit thing and the implosion of the two major parties, Corbyn calling Blair a war criminal would be about as impressive as a bunch of Theatre Studies majors protesting militarism by staging a collective die-in. It would do nothing but reinforce the impression that he's a crazy leftie.
Hey, here's a thought - maybe Labour's Parliamentary Party revolt was actually orchestrated by Seamus Milne in order to bury Chakrabati's report on antisemitism in Labour? This way Corbyn is conveniently out of the picture while the report is an issue, then he can return, untouched, as soon as people forget about it.1 Wheels within wheels my friend, wheels within wheels.
1 I.e., about lunchtime.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:21 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry, this is loonytunes. Even if it weren't overshadowed by the whole Brexit thing and the implosion of the two major parties, Corbyn calling Blair a war criminal would be about as impressive as a bunch of Theatre Studies majors protesting militarism by staging a collective die-in. It would do nothing but reinforce the impression that he's a crazy leftie.
Hey, here's a thought - maybe Labour's Parliamentary Party revolt was actually orchestrated by Seamus Milne in order to bury Chakrabati's report on antisemitism in Labour? This way Corbyn is conveniently out of the picture while the report is an issue, then he can return, untouched, as soon as people forget about it.1 Wheels within wheels my friend, wheels within wheels.
1 I.e., about lunchtime.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:21 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey, here's a thought - maybe Labour's Parliamentary Party revolt was actually orchestrated by Seamus Milne in order to bury Chakrabati's report on antisemitism in Labour?
That attributes a level of canny and forward thinking to Milne that he has done nothing to indicate he possesses.
posted by Dysk at 6:29 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
That attributes a level of canny and forward thinking to Milne that he has done nothing to indicate he possesses.
posted by Dysk at 6:29 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Boris knows whoever does or does not push the Article 50 button is, what is the quaint English term? "Proper Fucked."
So he'll bow out, wounded and sad by his betrayal by Gove. This way, when the poor doomed fool who thinks they want leadership of the Tories now utterly fails at everything, well! Boris will then come in to pick up the pieces left of Great Britain, put them in a pile, and then roll around on them nude and slathered in baby-oil. As PM. According to schedule.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:41 PM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
So he'll bow out, wounded and sad by his betrayal by Gove. This way, when the poor doomed fool who thinks they want leadership of the Tories now utterly fails at everything, well! Boris will then come in to pick up the pieces left of Great Britain, put them in a pile, and then roll around on them nude and slathered in baby-oil. As PM. According to schedule.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:41 PM on June 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
Dammit, Slap*Happy, I was stuck in a car all day and was just waiting to post that! This will destroy Gove's career, and Boris will return as the leader in triumph.
posted by scruss at 7:45 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 7:45 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Guys I'm a little bit concerned that QEII went the full Cersei with her dress today.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:51 PM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:51 PM on June 30, 2016 [11 favorites]
Well, while this whole Brexit thing is certainly very terrible, but if "went the full Cersei" becomes a well-known English phrase we'll at least have wrested something from the wreckage.
Also, from way over here on the other side of the pond and with my head full of English history podcasts, does Corbyn remind anyone else of Thomas Beckett?
posted by Diablevert at 9:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, from way over here on the other side of the pond and with my head full of English history podcasts, does Corbyn remind anyone else of Thomas Beckett?
posted by Diablevert at 9:13 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, here's the opinion of Great Britain's most popular immigrant (from the farthest location, 4th incarnation) on Brexit. (punchline: 82-year-old actor who played a 500-year-old alien says some people are too old to be allowed to vote)
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
QEII went the full CerseiDoes it actually have to be a strong man?
posted by fullerine at 12:16 AM on July 1, 2016
Nicola Sturgeon declared Queen in the North
posted by Catseye at 12:20 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 12:20 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
schmod: But, please. Let's turn the debate toward a shitty analogy that a Labour guy made one time in a hastily-written speech.
Telling Metafilter's Jews how we should feel about antisemitism, though... by all means let's all get on board with that shit.
Corbyn gave the speech at an event unveiling the antisemitism report / investigation over actual, honest-to-G-d anti-Jewish statements and social media posts that were made by members of his party. Including Ken Livingstone's stunningly fucked-up claim that Hitler was a supporter of Zionism. Including MP Naz Shah's advocating that Israel (which she compared to Nazi Germany) be forcibly relocated while likening Zionism to al-Qaeda. Including Vicki Kirby's (Vice Chair of Labour’s Woking branch) tweets saying Jews have “big noses” and “slaughter the oppressed”.
But wait, there's more: between March 15 and May 4 of this year, ten Labour politicians and activists were suspended. Some only after a disgustingly lengthy uproar.
If Metafilter's Jews want to discuss whether Corbyn did something stupid, or if this is a non-issue, or if this is part of a larger, problematic pattern, then it would be nice if people here weren't dismissive about it, or imply that we should only bring it up when the time is more convenient.
posted by zarq at 12:43 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
Telling Metafilter's Jews how we should feel about antisemitism, though... by all means let's all get on board with that shit.
Corbyn gave the speech at an event unveiling the antisemitism report / investigation over actual, honest-to-G-d anti-Jewish statements and social media posts that were made by members of his party. Including Ken Livingstone's stunningly fucked-up claim that Hitler was a supporter of Zionism. Including MP Naz Shah's advocating that Israel (which she compared to Nazi Germany) be forcibly relocated while likening Zionism to al-Qaeda. Including Vicki Kirby's (Vice Chair of Labour’s Woking branch) tweets saying Jews have “big noses” and “slaughter the oppressed”.
But wait, there's more: between March 15 and May 4 of this year, ten Labour politicians and activists were suspended. Some only after a disgustingly lengthy uproar.
If Metafilter's Jews want to discuss whether Corbyn did something stupid, or if this is a non-issue, or if this is part of a larger, problematic pattern, then it would be nice if people here weren't dismissive about it, or imply that we should only bring it up when the time is more convenient.
posted by zarq at 12:43 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
But this thread is not related to that - it's about the UK's impending exit from the EU and the fallout from the vote.
The referendum result was, in part, a public expression of religious prejudice.
Part of the fallout from the vote (and one of its many ramifications that are currently being discussed here,) is that Labour may or may not become the majority party soon. There has already been a no-confidence motion vote regarding Corbyn's fitness as leader. An ongoing assessment of Corbyn's leadership of the party and whether he and it can govern effectively, is one aspect of this conversation.
posted by zarq at 1:05 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The referendum result was, in part, a public expression of religious prejudice.
Part of the fallout from the vote (and one of its many ramifications that are currently being discussed here,) is that Labour may or may not become the majority party soon. There has already been a no-confidence motion vote regarding Corbyn's fitness as leader. An ongoing assessment of Corbyn's leadership of the party and whether he and it can govern effectively, is one aspect of this conversation.
posted by zarq at 1:05 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyone want to place bets for today?
Labour MPs to split and battle about which part remains Labour?
Boris Johnson to back one of the outsiders with a promise to serve as their deputy?
David Cameron to announce he's bored of it all and notifying Article 50, finishing the announcement with "I did it 35 minutes ago"?
posted by MattWPBS at 1:10 AM on July 1, 2016
Labour MPs to split and battle about which part remains Labour?
Boris Johnson to back one of the outsiders with a promise to serve as their deputy?
David Cameron to announce he's bored of it all and notifying Article 50, finishing the announcement with "I did it 35 minutes ago"?
posted by MattWPBS at 1:10 AM on July 1, 2016
Bonus, Lib Dem resurgence in local council election. Huge swing, mainly from Tories and UKIP:
Leatherhead North (Mole Valley) result:
LDEM: 56.6% (+27.4)
CON: 22.3% (-11.7)
UKIP: 10.3% (-7.9)
LAB: 8.9% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.8% (-2.1)
posted by MattWPBS at 1:28 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Leatherhead North (Mole Valley) result:
LDEM: 56.6% (+27.4)
CON: 22.3% (-11.7)
UKIP: 10.3% (-7.9)
LAB: 8.9% (-5.7)
GRN: 1.8% (-2.1)
posted by MattWPBS at 1:28 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
May will win, Gove will be made to look like a child. Murdoch and Dacre will cry bitter tears that their pet won't be placed on the throne. Corbyn will hang on by his fingernails until the Chilcot report and will then cause a massive amount of damage to New Labour. The Labour leadership contest will be smashed by Corbynistas and the party irreparably damaged by people unable to understand that they are caught up with belief in just one man. LibDem will see a resurgence (but not by much), the Greens will continue to make gains but UKIP will drink up everyone's milkshake and if there is a snap election will make immense gains. Sturgeon will continue to be the only grown up in the room.
That's my prediction for the next few months at any rate.
posted by longbaugh at 1:30 AM on July 1, 2016 [18 favorites]
That's my prediction for the next few months at any rate.
posted by longbaugh at 1:30 AM on July 1, 2016 [18 favorites]
Talking at work today, what do people make of the situation if Angela Eagle doesn't declare today?
posted by MattWPBS at 1:30 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by MattWPBS at 1:30 AM on July 1, 2016
I think the anyone-but-Corbynites have until Monday to pull the trigger on a leadership contest. Otherwise it's stalemate.
posted by pharm at 1:35 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by pharm at 1:35 AM on July 1, 2016
She's no hope to win. 6% vs Corbyn's >60% in the last leadership contest iirc. I've no idea why anyone thinks it's a good idea to stand against Corbyn's vanguard. I can't think of anyone in the Labour party who has the politics to match Corbyn but the personality to actually take the fight to the Tory/UKIP alliance. It's rather depressing.
posted by longbaugh at 1:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 1:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think it's the end of Boris Johnson as a force in British politics. By using the word 'punchline' for the meat of his speech, and getting rolled so effortlessly by Gove, he had conceded that he really was just a big joke all along and not a Machiavellian political operator after all. I imagine Heseltine spoke for a lot of Tories, and not just them, when he used words like 'contempt' in his comments on Johnson yesterday. The first inside reporting from Johnson's camp said he was 'crushed and disconsolate' and that's a start I suppose. The Leo Amery 'Speak for England!' prize for the last week surely goes to the random woman who yelled 'Boris you twat!' at him as he scuttled into his car last Friday. That's how it's going to be for him for a long long time.
posted by Mocata at 1:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 1:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
True, winterhill. Turn-out was 30%, about 1500 people. The Lib Dem candidate in his pre-election spiel made the point that he is the only candidate living in Leatherhead North, which may have given him an advantage. The Labour candidate looks like he is to the left of the party.
posted by paduasoy at 2:17 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by paduasoy at 2:17 AM on July 1, 2016
Scotland? The place with plenty of deprivation yet vanishingly small amounts of UKIP, where the Leave campaign failed, where there's political stability?
The place with a moderate, popular, centrist social democratic party in charge under a non-FPTP electoral system?
Hint, England. Hint hint bloody hint.
posted by Devonian at 2:19 AM on July 1, 2016 [23 favorites]
The place with a moderate, popular, centrist social democratic party in charge under a non-FPTP electoral system?
Hint, England. Hint hint bloody hint.
posted by Devonian at 2:19 AM on July 1, 2016 [23 favorites]
A threaded comment on Twitter highlights another nightmarish aspect of the prospect of being left out in the WTO cold for several years post-Brexit. Not only would WTO tariffs on UK exports kill our markets within the EU (which take almost half of UK exports), but:
In order to enter the EU, goods must conform with EU regulations. As you'd expect. At the moment, this isn't a problem because the bodies which regulate conformity in this country are recognised by the EU. Upon ejection from the EU, this recognition would cease. Which means that UK goods entering the EU would be held up at every border point, while their conformity to regulations was tested. This would make selling to the EU virtually impossible unless our regulatory bodies could be certified by the EU. And they'll be in no hurry to do that.
At this point, I don't give a flying Farage who ends up leading the PLP. I'm aghast at the prospect of Theresa May as PM, who really could turn out to be the strongwoman none of us want, but even more aghast that the only realistic contender is Gove - but I don't give a damn about the Tories' internal bickering either. At this point, what Britain needs is no party leadership. It needs individual MPs to realize that the scenario awaiting Britain if Article 50 is triggered is now so unbelievably ghastly that it constitutes an unforeseeable circumstance that renders the referendum result unreliable. You MPs voted to hold this "advisory" referendum, so now show some backbone, consider that "advice" and reject it, definitively and for all the world to see. Then use the four years remaining on your fixed terms in Parliament to repair the damage and hope that the 2020 General Election won't be too ghastly. Otherwise, at some point before 2020, Britain will lose half of its trade overnight. Forget the Leavers complaining that "Britain is full" - Britain will be empty, left only to those who have no escape route.
I wouldn't worry about prospective EU migrants flooding here if we end up staying in, either. Many will have been more than put off by the events of the past week.
posted by rory at 2:26 AM on July 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
In order to enter the EU, goods must conform with EU regulations. As you'd expect. At the moment, this isn't a problem because the bodies which regulate conformity in this country are recognised by the EU. Upon ejection from the EU, this recognition would cease. Which means that UK goods entering the EU would be held up at every border point, while their conformity to regulations was tested. This would make selling to the EU virtually impossible unless our regulatory bodies could be certified by the EU. And they'll be in no hurry to do that.
At this point, I don't give a flying Farage who ends up leading the PLP. I'm aghast at the prospect of Theresa May as PM, who really could turn out to be the strongwoman none of us want, but even more aghast that the only realistic contender is Gove - but I don't give a damn about the Tories' internal bickering either. At this point, what Britain needs is no party leadership. It needs individual MPs to realize that the scenario awaiting Britain if Article 50 is triggered is now so unbelievably ghastly that it constitutes an unforeseeable circumstance that renders the referendum result unreliable. You MPs voted to hold this "advisory" referendum, so now show some backbone, consider that "advice" and reject it, definitively and for all the world to see. Then use the four years remaining on your fixed terms in Parliament to repair the damage and hope that the 2020 General Election won't be too ghastly. Otherwise, at some point before 2020, Britain will lose half of its trade overnight. Forget the Leavers complaining that "Britain is full" - Britain will be empty, left only to those who have no escape route.
I wouldn't worry about prospective EU migrants flooding here if we end up staying in, either. Many will have been more than put off by the events of the past week.
posted by rory at 2:26 AM on July 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
rolled so effortlessly by Gove
Gove didn't roll anyone, for no discernible reason other than his pliancy, Gove was the Murdoch anointed one. Borisconi knew this, as did Sarah Vine and then the rest of the world.
That Gove has little chance against May would seem obvious, so maybe that is also part of the strategy. Borisconi might have got in, but couldn't be relied on by Murdoch to do his bidding. So Gove is put up as a weak opponent against May, ensuring that she gets the role?
posted by asok at 2:34 AM on July 1, 2016
Gove didn't roll anyone, for no discernible reason other than his pliancy, Gove was the Murdoch anointed one. Borisconi knew this, as did Sarah Vine and then the rest of the world.
That Gove has little chance against May would seem obvious, so maybe that is also part of the strategy. Borisconi might have got in, but couldn't be relied on by Murdoch to do his bidding. So Gove is put up as a weak opponent against May, ensuring that she gets the role?
posted by asok at 2:34 AM on July 1, 2016
Talking about Momentum, there's a line here (Inside Momentum: ‘The idea that we’re all rulebook-thumping Trotskyites is silly’) which brings home the point to me with the current Labour party situation:
Walker has pointed views about Labour MPs who are out of step with the views of their constituency activists. “If you have a real disparity, I think that’s a major problem. How is it all right to have a local MP who time and again goes against the wishes of their constituents? How is that democratic?”
The impression I get is that Labour MPs in the PLP may be out of alignment with their constituency parties/activists, but think that they're more in line with their constituents. Comes down to who the MP should be representing in essence - their local party, or their local electorate? Does this differ according to the situation too - should they have a different take for a situation involving the leader of the party?
posted by MattWPBS at 3:08 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Walker has pointed views about Labour MPs who are out of step with the views of their constituency activists. “If you have a real disparity, I think that’s a major problem. How is it all right to have a local MP who time and again goes against the wishes of their constituents? How is that democratic?”
The impression I get is that Labour MPs in the PLP may be out of alignment with their constituency parties/activists, but think that they're more in line with their constituents. Comes down to who the MP should be representing in essence - their local party, or their local electorate? Does this differ according to the situation too - should they have a different take for a situation involving the leader of the party?
posted by MattWPBS at 3:08 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
So the Daily Mail's rather hastened "deselection" of Gove in favour of May - is that not the mortal blow to his Brutean ambitions?
posted by progosk at 3:11 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by progosk at 3:11 AM on July 1, 2016
Christ, as if things weren't bad enough… “Austrian constitutional court orders re-run of presidential election narrowly lost by far-right candidate”
posted by nfg at 3:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nfg at 3:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
But this thread is not related to that - it's about the UK's impending exit from the EU and the fallout from the vote.
Winterhill, is Corbyn's fitness to lead the Labour party relevant to this discussion? Because the question of whether Corbyn is vaguely anti-semitic, or just comes across that way because he is a bit of a clumsy public speaker, speaks very directly to his fitness.
Contrast Corbyn with Saddiq Khan. Take a look at this status update. In 31 words and a handful of images, Saddiq makes it clear that (1) he genuinely loves and supports the diversity of modern London, and (2) he has the 21st-century communications skill to make his feelings clear.
As far as messages of tolerance go, if Saddiq's post is a 10, and Trump's infamous taco bowl tweet is a zero, Corbyn's speech is maybe a 5. I've read his entire speech, and while he is eloquent and impassioned in condemning certain kinds of bigotry, his condemnation of anti-Semitism feels at best clumsy and half-hearted. The Israel/ISIL line has gotten the most attention, but I thought there was another passage that was equally revealing:
As a Jewish Londoner, if I am the victim of anti-Semitism, I am 100% confident that Mayor Khan will be on my side-- and that the actions he takes will improve the situation rather than make it worse. I have no such confidence in Corbyn.
Is Corbyn truly ambivalent about anti-Semitism? Or is he just a little too clumsy to convey his position, even to somebody who was actually willing to sit down and read his entire speech? Either way, I don't think he's the person to lead Labour through what looks to be an ugly period in British history.
posted by yankeefog at 3:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [17 favorites]
Winterhill, is Corbyn's fitness to lead the Labour party relevant to this discussion? Because the question of whether Corbyn is vaguely anti-semitic, or just comes across that way because he is a bit of a clumsy public speaker, speaks very directly to his fitness.
Contrast Corbyn with Saddiq Khan. Take a look at this status update. In 31 words and a handful of images, Saddiq makes it clear that (1) he genuinely loves and supports the diversity of modern London, and (2) he has the 21st-century communications skill to make his feelings clear.
As far as messages of tolerance go, if Saddiq's post is a 10, and Trump's infamous taco bowl tweet is a zero, Corbyn's speech is maybe a 5. I've read his entire speech, and while he is eloquent and impassioned in condemning certain kinds of bigotry, his condemnation of anti-Semitism feels at best clumsy and half-hearted. The Israel/ISIL line has gotten the most attention, but I thought there was another passage that was equally revealing:
No one should be expected either to condemn or defend the actions of foreign powers on account of their faith or race. At the same time, we should have the sensitivity to understand how upset many Labour party members and supporters are likely to feel about various human rights abuses around the world.He is telling people not to condemn Jews for the actions of Israel -- and in the same breath, he is telling Jews not to condemn anti-semites for being angry at them about the actions of Israel.
As a Jewish Londoner, if I am the victim of anti-Semitism, I am 100% confident that Mayor Khan will be on my side-- and that the actions he takes will improve the situation rather than make it worse. I have no such confidence in Corbyn.
Is Corbyn truly ambivalent about anti-Semitism? Or is he just a little too clumsy to convey his position, even to somebody who was actually willing to sit down and read his entire speech? Either way, I don't think he's the person to lead Labour through what looks to be an ugly period in British history.
posted by yankeefog at 3:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [17 favorites]
What will be happening now is that the civil service will be preparing (having not done so seriously until now, because nobody expected the Leave vote) briefing documents setting out all the issues properly. For, I imagine, the first time,. You know, thie sort of thing you should have done as part of the national debate BEFORE THE BLOODY VOTE (sorry, sorry, I'll either calm down or die of apoplexy soon. Promise.)
At the same time, the EU, which itself was unprepared for Brexit, will be generating its own briefing and policy docs for internal and public consumption. They'll probably correspond well with the UK findings, because the analysis will be done by much the same body of lawyers on exactly the same law, so any big differences in public stances on matters of fact will be for negotiation purposes, and that'll be interesting to watch.
But stuff the regulation, customs, type approvals, financial dealings, etc, is going to get tested properly for the first time over the next couple of months.
I have no idea what'll happen if (when) there are serious legal disagreements along the way, once Art 50 is triggered, nor if there's any way of testing these beforehand.
So whoever gets to unwrap the parcel of leadership when the music stops - yes, the ticking one with the strange slime oozing from underneath the pretty paper - will have to make the following decisions
1. When to trigger Art 50
2. What negotiating stance to take, which means choosing something on the spectrom from Please Mr EU Don't Hurt Me to Fuck Off, You Arrogant Foreigner Johnnies. This has good correlation with the economic outcome spectrum from Italy to North Korea, and the How Many Votes Will UKIP Get Next Time from live-with-it to we're-left-with-two-seats-in-Wiltshire.
3, Scotland, NI, Gib, etc
Nobody with any sanity is going to want to bind themselves to an early tug at 1 - it's the only control they'll have. But as the whole shitstorm has been fuelled by insanity, top to bottom, I got nothing here.
posted by Devonian at 3:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
At the same time, the EU, which itself was unprepared for Brexit, will be generating its own briefing and policy docs for internal and public consumption. They'll probably correspond well with the UK findings, because the analysis will be done by much the same body of lawyers on exactly the same law, so any big differences in public stances on matters of fact will be for negotiation purposes, and that'll be interesting to watch.
But stuff the regulation, customs, type approvals, financial dealings, etc, is going to get tested properly for the first time over the next couple of months.
I have no idea what'll happen if (when) there are serious legal disagreements along the way, once Art 50 is triggered, nor if there's any way of testing these beforehand.
So whoever gets to unwrap the parcel of leadership when the music stops - yes, the ticking one with the strange slime oozing from underneath the pretty paper - will have to make the following decisions
1. When to trigger Art 50
2. What negotiating stance to take, which means choosing something on the spectrom from Please Mr EU Don't Hurt Me to Fuck Off, You Arrogant Foreigner Johnnies. This has good correlation with the economic outcome spectrum from Italy to North Korea, and the How Many Votes Will UKIP Get Next Time from live-with-it to we're-left-with-two-seats-in-Wiltshire.
3, Scotland, NI, Gib, etc
Nobody with any sanity is going to want to bind themselves to an early tug at 1 - it's the only control they'll have. But as the whole shitstorm has been fuelled by insanity, top to bottom, I got nothing here.
posted by Devonian at 3:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [11 favorites]
So the Daily Mail's rather hastened "deselection" of Gove in favour of May - is that not the mortal blow to his Brutean ambitions?
The membership pick from the final two. He has to come in second, and hope that the membership won't pick May because she was a (very unenthusiastic) Remainer. That's why May is making all these 'Brexit means brexit' noises. It's almost certainly her against A Leaver. It might be Gove, it might (surprisingly) be Andrea Leadsom.
posted by jaduncan at 3:21 AM on July 1, 2016
The membership pick from the final two. He has to come in second, and hope that the membership won't pick May because she was a (very unenthusiastic) Remainer. That's why May is making all these 'Brexit means brexit' noises. It's almost certainly her against A Leaver. It might be Gove, it might (surprisingly) be Andrea Leadsom.
posted by jaduncan at 3:21 AM on July 1, 2016
jaduncan - my understanding is that May will potentially be a worse case scenario for Brexit as she will need to prove her credentials to Leave voters. Gove may be a zealot but weirdly he may not need to be as hardline as May because he campaigned for Leave.
posted by litleozy at 3:25 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by litleozy at 3:25 AM on July 1, 2016
I dunno, she seems more pervious to reality than Gove.
posted by Mocata at 3:28 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mocata at 3:28 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
IMO, the real battle is against the white racists sorry, walkers UKIP. Whoever wins will probably be weighing up economic damage versus what percentage of the vote they can give away and still have a Tory government after the next election.
posted by jaduncan at 3:30 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jaduncan at 3:30 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a very real possibility of Cons/UKIP as two main parties, Cons in power, UKIP as the 'opposition'. Which is mildly terrifying.
posted by litleozy at 3:32 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by litleozy at 3:32 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
UKIP is absolutely the power that can deliver votes right now across the UK. Any pol that doesn't address (and soundly *defeat*) the issues of the 'Kippers is on a hiding to nothing at the next GE. We may not have PR but they're going to make huge gains. Essentially at this point the big parties appear to have proven themselves almost totally unable to think outside of the Westminster circle and those looking for an alternative are going to split heavily towards UKIP, LibDem and the Greens.
My "plan" is to go along to some UKIP events and see what's being said - is it the economic downturn amongst the working class or is it just all 100% "fuck the wogs". If it's the latter it's a battle that needs to be fought publicly and loudly but if it's the former then maybe some education around basic economics could lure them away from the dangers of a populist uprising.
posted by longbaugh at 3:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
My "plan" is to go along to some UKIP events and see what's being said - is it the economic downturn amongst the working class or is it just all 100% "fuck the wogs". If it's the latter it's a battle that needs to be fought publicly and loudly but if it's the former then maybe some education around basic economics could lure them away from the dangers of a populist uprising.
posted by longbaugh at 3:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
There's a very real possibility of Cons/UKIP as two main parties, Cons in power, UKIP as the 'opposition'. Which is mildly terrifying.
I mostly agree. The difference in my view is that I'd say it's the extremely terrifying point at which I'd start to seriously look into emigration as a backup plan, and utter backing of Scottish independence as plan A.
posted by jaduncan at 3:37 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mostly agree. The difference in my view is that I'd say it's the extremely terrifying point at which I'd start to seriously look into emigration as a backup plan, and utter backing of Scottish independence as plan A.
posted by jaduncan at 3:37 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
So the Daily Mail's rather hastened "deselection" of Gove in favour of May - is that not the mortal blow to his Brutean ambitions?
At this point I think Gove's ambitions might only be Foreign Secretary/Chancellor in the May cabinet.
There's a very real possibility of Cons/UKIP as two main parties, Cons in power, UKIP as the 'opposition'. Which is mildly terrifying.
Indeed, this is the time for a progressive Labour/SDP/Lib Dem/Green unified front. If Labour wasn't a clown car on fire.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:40 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
At this point I think Gove's ambitions might only be Foreign Secretary/Chancellor in the May cabinet.
There's a very real possibility of Cons/UKIP as two main parties, Cons in power, UKIP as the 'opposition'. Which is mildly terrifying.
Indeed, this is the time for a progressive Labour/SDP/Lib Dem/Green unified front. If Labour wasn't a clown car on fire.
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:40 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Indeed, this is the time for a progressive Labour/SDP/Lib Dem/Green unified front. If Labour wasn't a clown car on fire.
I think David Owen's a bit old for this sort of thing...
posted by Devonian at 3:42 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think David Owen's a bit old for this sort of thing...
posted by Devonian at 3:42 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
If Labour wasn't a clown car on fire.
The thing that is most irritating about Corbyn (and there are quite a few, even as someone who likes his policies) is that he hasn't even united the Left.
posted by jaduncan at 3:43 AM on July 1, 2016
The thing that is most irritating about Corbyn (and there are quite a few, even as someone who likes his policies) is that he hasn't even united the Left.
posted by jaduncan at 3:43 AM on July 1, 2016
I think David Owen's a bit old for this sort of thing...
Ha! you can tell Labour splits have been on my mind...
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:45 AM on July 1, 2016
Ha! you can tell Labour splits have been on my mind...
posted by brilliantmistake at 3:45 AM on July 1, 2016
This is about 1000% more than I would ever actually advocate, but it was cathartic to write...
My Eyes Like Nothing in the Sun
A peaceful, gentle person, I
Don't often wish a man would die,
But one exception's this old turd.
Och, vengeful angels, strike down Murdoch,
Smite his red-tops and his bald top,
Overturn the stones he's crawled
Beneath, then kick him in the teeth.
Pick up a heavy bag of rocks,
And heap them onto Mister Fox.
Jump up and down upon the pile
And hear his bones crack. Pausing, smile
And think of all the lives he's wrecked,
The countries he's completely fecked,
Then walk away without a word.
Och, rid the earth of Rupert Murdoch.
posted by rory at 3:57 AM on July 1, 2016 [17 favorites]
My Eyes Like Nothing in the Sun
A peaceful, gentle person, I
Don't often wish a man would die,
But one exception's this old turd.
Och, vengeful angels, strike down Murdoch,
Smite his red-tops and his bald top,
Overturn the stones he's crawled
Beneath, then kick him in the teeth.
Pick up a heavy bag of rocks,
And heap them onto Mister Fox.
Jump up and down upon the pile
And hear his bones crack. Pausing, smile
And think of all the lives he's wrecked,
The countries he's completely fecked,
Then walk away without a word.
Och, rid the earth of Rupert Murdoch.
posted by rory at 3:57 AM on July 1, 2016 [17 favorites]
> My "plan" is to go along to some UKIP events and see what's being said
Thank you for putting this idea in my head. I am now obsessed with it.
It seems there is winnable council by-election coming up in Bradford. I cannot leaflet with them, because I need to not be anymore suicidal than I am, but I am on the local mailing lists now on the look out for events.
posted by vbfg at 3:59 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thank you for putting this idea in my head. I am now obsessed with it.
It seems there is winnable council by-election coming up in Bradford. I cannot leaflet with them, because I need to not be anymore suicidal than I am, but I am on the local mailing lists now on the look out for events.
posted by vbfg at 3:59 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Alastair Campbell's letter to Kelvin McKenzie, published in The Sun:
https://twitter.com/SunApology/status/748760018225229825
Alastair Campbell's statement on it:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/748778587747078144
posted by vbfg at 4:01 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
https://twitter.com/SunApology/status/748760018225229825
Alastair Campbell's statement on it:
https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/748778587747078144
posted by vbfg at 4:01 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
He is telling people not to condemn Jews for the actions of Israel -- and in the same breath, he is telling Jews not to condemn anti-semites for being angry at them about the actions of Israel.
That's a standard Corbyn pattern, of course. Assuring the supporter base that he hasn't abandoned them, and that he's only forced to say those other things to placate the elite.
posted by effbot at 4:12 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's a standard Corbyn pattern, of course. Assuring the supporter base that he hasn't abandoned them, and that he's only forced to say those other things to placate the elite.
posted by effbot at 4:12 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
In a way I kind of wish Thatcher had hung on for a couple more years to watch a Tory government destroy everything she stood for through sheer vanity and incompetence.
posted by Grangousier at 4:17 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 4:17 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Nah, Grangousier: they had to wait until Mummy was dead before they could sell the family plate. They're good Tory Boys, after all.
posted by scruss at 4:20 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 4:20 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The remain campaign billboards that never were.
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:25 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:25 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
This wasn't selling the family plate, though - they've been doing that since the early 80s, this was...
... What was this? What the fuck was this?
posted by Grangousier at 4:36 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
... What was this? What the fuck was this?
posted by Grangousier at 4:36 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
There has been a lot of criticism that the London rally, held the evening before, was dominated by the Socialist Workers party (SWP) and other leftwing groups. But I was there – and while there were members of the SWP and other veterans of decades of leftwing infighting, the rally was dominated by young activists brought into politics last year after the Conservative general election win and inspired by the Corbyn campaign. - Guardian reports from London and Liverpool.
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:41 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 4:41 AM on July 1, 2016
What was this? What the fuck was this?
Russian roulette?
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:43 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Russian roulette?
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:43 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
With a fucking cannon.
posted by Grangousier at 4:46 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 4:46 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Stand With Jeremy Corbyn: "The embattled Labour Party leader is hated by his opponents for all the right reasons"
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:49 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:49 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
All right then, UK folk: how are we all doing today?
Personally I can't stop reading the news at home, can't get away from it at work either, and am stressed and worried and disappointed with so very much on a grand and growing scale.
Currently taking a brief break from my (faceless unelected red-tape-loving bureaucrat!) job to sit in a quiet place and look out of the window and gather my thoughts so I can focus better this afternoon. I can see our castle from here if I lean a bit. It's been through a lot of turmoil and change and country dealing with damage and experimenting with incredibly bad ideas, right? It's still standing. I'm sure it will be after all of whatever this ends up being, too.
posted by Catseye at 4:50 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Personally I can't stop reading the news at home, can't get away from it at work either, and am stressed and worried and disappointed with so very much on a grand and growing scale.
Currently taking a brief break from my (faceless unelected red-tape-loving bureaucrat!) job to sit in a quiet place and look out of the window and gather my thoughts so I can focus better this afternoon. I can see our castle from here if I lean a bit. It's been through a lot of turmoil and change and country dealing with damage and experimenting with incredibly bad ideas, right? It's still standing. I'm sure it will be after all of whatever this ends up being, too.
posted by Catseye at 4:50 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Speaking of cannons... Water cannon bought by Boris Johnson to be sold off without being used
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:52 AM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:52 AM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
They could at least have used them on him.
posted by Grangousier at 4:53 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 4:53 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
brilliantmistake - 'sOK, I do it too. It's even more embarrassing to do it when talking in Scotland to Scottish friends. I think it's a combination of being there the first time and the onset of middle-age senility.
posted by Devonian at 4:55 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by Devonian at 4:55 AM on July 1, 2016
my understanding is that May will potentially be a worse case scenario for Brexit as she will need to prove her credentials to Leave voters. Gove may be a zealot but weirdly he may not need to be as hardline as May because he campaigned for Leave.
This is assuming he'd want to step Brexit back, though, right? From what I've been reading, it seems like he is the true believer in Leave, and Boris was only a rank opportunist. Would Gove even be interested in finding a way to avoid Article 50?
posted by taz at 5:04 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is assuming he'd want to step Brexit back, though, right? From what I've been reading, it seems like he is the true believer in Leave, and Boris was only a rank opportunist. Would Gove even be interested in finding a way to avoid Article 50?
posted by taz at 5:04 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
She's no hope to win. 6% vs Corbyn's >60% in the last leadership contest iirc.
YouGov: In a hypothetical head-to-head matchup between him and Angela Eagle, he currently holds a 10 point lead at 50% to 40%, with 5% saying they would not vote and 7% saying they don’t know.
posted by effbot at 5:05 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
YouGov: In a hypothetical head-to-head matchup between him and Angela Eagle, he currently holds a 10 point lead at 50% to 40%, with 5% saying they would not vote and 7% saying they don’t know.
posted by effbot at 5:05 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll put £20 on him to win by at least 10% if it comes down the the two of them.
posted by longbaugh at 5:15 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by longbaugh at 5:15 AM on July 1, 2016
Aaaaand they're talking about the Corn Laws on the radio. ("... Brexit is the continuation of one of the longest-running schisms in the Conservative Party").
Whiggery Resurgam!
posted by Devonian at 5:19 AM on July 1, 2016 [9 favorites]
Whiggery Resurgam!
posted by Devonian at 5:19 AM on July 1, 2016 [9 favorites]
All right then, UK folk: how are we all doing today?
Still this in the main.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:21 AM on July 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
Still this in the main.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:21 AM on July 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
And now they're talking up Gove as 'someone who can resonate with moderate Scots to convince them to stay in the UK'.
I think I've got a better chance to resonate with Putin to convince him to open a gay nightclub called Fabulovski in Leningrad.
posted by Devonian at 5:27 AM on July 1, 2016 [22 favorites]
I think I've got a better chance to resonate with Putin to convince him to open a gay nightclub called Fabulovski in Leningrad.
posted by Devonian at 5:27 AM on July 1, 2016 [22 favorites]
Brexit research suggests 2.3 million Leave voters regret their choice in reversal that would change result.
posted by rory at 5:33 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by rory at 5:33 AM on July 1, 2016
Gove?
Resonate?
Scotland?
Hahahahahahahaha.
Aye, mebbe he'd give us a few laughs as we shout 'Pob' at him. The man's a walking ventriloquist's puppet with all the political weight of a whoopee cushion.
posted by Happy Dave at 5:37 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Resonate?
Scotland?
Hahahahahahahaha.
Aye, mebbe he'd give us a few laughs as we shout 'Pob' at him. The man's a walking ventriloquist's puppet with all the political weight of a whoopee cushion.
posted by Happy Dave at 5:37 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Can Gove resonate with the Scottish electorate? I'm not sure on this, it depends what they're hitting him with, and how hard.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:39 AM on July 1, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 5:39 AM on July 1, 2016 [27 favorites]
now they're talking up Gove as 'someone who can resonate with moderate Scots to convince them to stay in the UK'.
For God's sake, and these people consider themselves politicians? As a profession it may be widely disdained, but it's at least supposed to suggest some degree of nous.
IndyRef2 will be swung by 2014-No voters who wanted to Remain. No way in hell are they going to be "resonated" by one of the key architects of Leave.
posted by rory at 5:40 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
For God's sake, and these people consider themselves politicians? As a profession it may be widely disdained, but it's at least supposed to suggest some degree of nous.
IndyRef2 will be swung by 2014-No voters who wanted to Remain. No way in hell are they going to be "resonated" by one of the key architects of Leave.
posted by rory at 5:40 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gove has basically just said he will look into revising Scottish funding, after new deal was (barely) struck in February. He wants to break the union, not win Scottish votes.
posted by litleozy at 5:44 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by litleozy at 5:44 AM on July 1, 2016
Intensely frustrating thought: Gove is Scottish by birth and upbringing, which under the 2014 independence plan (and presumably the next one) would entitle him to Scottish citizenship. Which means that if Scotland goes indy and stays in the EU, Michael Gove gets to keep his EU citizenship whatever happens to the rest of the UK.
posted by rory at 5:50 AM on July 1, 2016
posted by rory at 5:50 AM on July 1, 2016
Brexit research suggests 2.3 million Leave voters regret their choice in reversal that would change result.
Instant regret (note for pet lovers: the cat got out by herself and was fine)
posted by elgilito at 6:02 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Instant regret (note for pet lovers: the cat got out by herself and was fine)
posted by elgilito at 6:02 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
I wonder if there are any remain voters who regret of /feel confused by their vote?
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 6:28 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Interesting interview with SNP MSP Alyn Smith about the speech he made in the European Parliament that got him a standing ovation. He wasn't due to speak but got a last-minute slot and ad-libbed it, as he couldn't bear the thought of Farage being the voice of the UK.
I think that speech will prove to be of incalculable value.
Lots of good stuff - "if you face down things like immigration, they go away" - and this in particular:
This was categorically not about independence. There are lots of other options. We have opened doors with Europe and yes, there are lots of granular problems, but Brussels is good at finding solutions where there is good will and there is goodwill and we want to find the mutually best and effective solutions.
As Westminster has descended into chaos and farce we have opened channels to Brussels, we have opened channels to the City of London. Mayor Sadiq Khan is clear he wants London to be represented in the talks. There is going to be a coalition. There are channels with Dublin. We are not without friends. We need to have cool heads and warm hearts.
(Incidentally, while some forces south of the border are reporting threefold increases in hate crime reports, the Scottish Police are saying there's been no increase at all. Hell yeah. Fuck off with that nonsense.)
posted by Devonian at 6:31 AM on July 1, 2016 [18 favorites]
I think that speech will prove to be of incalculable value.
Lots of good stuff - "if you face down things like immigration, they go away" - and this in particular:
This was categorically not about independence. There are lots of other options. We have opened doors with Europe and yes, there are lots of granular problems, but Brussels is good at finding solutions where there is good will and there is goodwill and we want to find the mutually best and effective solutions.
As Westminster has descended into chaos and farce we have opened channels to Brussels, we have opened channels to the City of London. Mayor Sadiq Khan is clear he wants London to be represented in the talks. There is going to be a coalition. There are channels with Dublin. We are not without friends. We need to have cool heads and warm hearts.
(Incidentally, while some forces south of the border are reporting threefold increases in hate crime reports, the Scottish Police are saying there's been no increase at all. Hell yeah. Fuck off with that nonsense.)
posted by Devonian at 6:31 AM on July 1, 2016 [18 favorites]
Well, some Boris backers are obviously not at all upset by Gove.
@SamCoatesTimes - Game of Thrones fans - who has Michael Gove become?
@BWallaceMP - @SamCoatesTimes he is actually Theon Greyjoy or will be by the time I am finished with him
edit: for anyone who's not familiar with Theon Greyjoy and doesn't mind spoilers, wiki.
posted by MattWPBS at 6:33 AM on July 1, 2016
@SamCoatesTimes - Game of Thrones fans - who has Michael Gove become?
@BWallaceMP - @SamCoatesTimes he is actually Theon Greyjoy or will be by the time I am finished with him
edit: for anyone who's not familiar with Theon Greyjoy and doesn't mind spoilers, wiki.
posted by MattWPBS at 6:33 AM on July 1, 2016
This just in - the £350m battle bus has been located. Preliminary video reports from investigators here.
posted by Mocata at 6:39 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mocata at 6:39 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wonder if there are any remain voters who regret of /feel confused by their vote?
Unlikely, what with none of them having accidentally been part of tipping the country into a terrible decision. There's just no need to think that hard about it, to question your own motives. Like, even if you've decided you're a Leaver, what harm did voting.Remain do? Vice versa on the other hand...
posted by Dysk at 6:43 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unlikely, what with none of them having accidentally been part of tipping the country into a terrible decision. There's just no need to think that hard about it, to question your own motives. Like, even if you've decided you're a Leaver, what harm did voting.Remain do? Vice versa on the other hand...
posted by Dysk at 6:43 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was about to complain that today hasn't seen much entertainment, but someone at the Guardian has actually read Tingle's book. Here's his view of Britain in a few weeks from now:
In London the Houses of Parliament are ablaze, the River Thames is “bubbling like the lava of a molten volcano”, and strange creatures “dressed [as] the Queen’s guard but with leathery reptilian wings and extended knifelike teeth” patrol the sky. Quadruple-decker passenger buses, introduced in a cost-saving measure by a desperate post-referendum government, have proven impractical and lie on their sides in the streets.
They also interviewed the author, who strongly advises against building such buses: “DON’T DO THIS THEY WILL TIP OVER.”
posted by effbot at 6:54 AM on July 1, 2016 [17 favorites]
In London the Houses of Parliament are ablaze, the River Thames is “bubbling like the lava of a molten volcano”, and strange creatures “dressed [as] the Queen’s guard but with leathery reptilian wings and extended knifelike teeth” patrol the sky. Quadruple-decker passenger buses, introduced in a cost-saving measure by a desperate post-referendum government, have proven impractical and lie on their sides in the streets.
They also interviewed the author, who strongly advises against building such buses: “DON’T DO THIS THEY WILL TIP OVER.”
posted by effbot at 6:54 AM on July 1, 2016 [17 favorites]
That's probably the clearest, most believable vision of the future I've heard yet.
posted by Grangousier at 6:56 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 6:56 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wonder if Tingle is behind this account:
@Gove2018: Hello @Gove2016 I'm you from the future. Don't become PM! You won't be able to control the wasps. I have to go, the wasp queen summons me.posted by zombieflanders at 7:00 AM on July 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
I wonder if there are any remain voters who regret of /feel confused by their vote?
I regret that I only had the one to cast and not, let's say 1,269,502.
posted by longbaugh at 7:39 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I regret that I only had the one to cast and not, let's say 1,269,502.
posted by longbaugh at 7:39 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Interesting the comment on channels being open with Dublin, Nicola Sturgeon has been invited to address the senate here on Brexit this month.
posted by nfg at 7:44 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nfg at 7:44 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Interesting interview with SNP MSP Alyn Smith about the speech he made in the European Parliament that got him a standing ovation. He wasn't due to speak but got a last-minute slot and ad-libbed it, as he couldn't bear the thought of Farage being the voice of the UK.
Smith's speech did have that feeling of not being lengthily prepared (he started out by speaking for all those regions in the UK who had not voted out - but then rapidly pivoted to close on the specific case for Scotland). As an improvised piece it was pretty amazing.
His mention of the city of London as an ally of Scotland in an indyref2 campaign is worth noting too: there must be a very large number of London based people and businesses who would either wish Scotland well as a place backing the EU - or who would consider re-locating there. That is a contrast with the antipathy or indifference from London seen in 2014.
As a final aside: Smith joins a long list of openly gay politicians who have risen the prominence in Scotland recently: Ruth Davidson, Patrick Harvie, Kezia Dugdale, David Mundell...
posted by rongorongo at 7:49 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Smith's speech did have that feeling of not being lengthily prepared (he started out by speaking for all those regions in the UK who had not voted out - but then rapidly pivoted to close on the specific case for Scotland). As an improvised piece it was pretty amazing.
His mention of the city of London as an ally of Scotland in an indyref2 campaign is worth noting too: there must be a very large number of London based people and businesses who would either wish Scotland well as a place backing the EU - or who would consider re-locating there. That is a contrast with the antipathy or indifference from London seen in 2014.
As a final aside: Smith joins a long list of openly gay politicians who have risen the prominence in Scotland recently: Ruth Davidson, Patrick Harvie, Kezia Dugdale, David Mundell...
posted by rongorongo at 7:49 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I wonder if there are any remain voters who regret of /feel confused by their vote?Sort of.
Everytime I hear "Democracy is too important to leave to the proles"
Every "fuck the Northerners/Welsh/Chavs" sentiment.
Every time I read or watch Mark Blyth or Larry Elliot.
Every paen to globalisation or "how will my child spend their gap year" sob story.
makes me wonder if I'm on the right side..
Then I see that Frog-faced cock or some racist graffiti or Boris Piffle Johnson and I remember why Remain was the only choice I could have made and still slept.
But still, echo chambers sound terrible whichever side you're on.
posted by fullerine at 8:00 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
From The Economist: The politics of anger: The triumph of the Brexit campaign is a warning to the liberal international order.
Now that history has stormed back with a vengeance, liberalism needs to fight its ground all over again. Part of the task is to find the language to make a principled, enlightened case and to take on people like Ms Le Pen and Mr Trump. The flow of goods, ideas, capital and people is essential for prosperity. The power of a hectoring, bullying, discriminatory state is a threat to human happiness. The virtues of tolerance and compromise are conditions for people to realise their full potential.posted by MonkeyToes at 8:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Anita Sethi, on being brown skinned in a post EU referendum world
Continuing the racist, xenophobic, anti-immigration rhetoric of UKIP's Leave campaign, Nigel Farage at 4am declared the Brexit victory as a "victory for real people", dehumanising large swathes of the population. But my heart beating inside my brown-skinned body tells me that I, too, am a real person.
Dysk, our Mefi style gurus have seen fit to change how blockquotes look. Hence the small text. I apologise if it is difficult to read.
posted by asok at 8:26 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Continuing the racist, xenophobic, anti-immigration rhetoric of UKIP's Leave campaign, Nigel Farage at 4am declared the Brexit victory as a "victory for real people", dehumanising large swathes of the population. But my heart beating inside my brown-skinned body tells me that I, too, am a real person.
Dysk, our Mefi style gurus have seen fit to change how blockquotes look. Hence the small text. I apologise if it is difficult to read.
posted by asok at 8:26 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Then, this.
When she was 21, my mother was informed her parents were not her natural parents, but had adopted her.
It was when she was 21 she learned her real father had gone off to war in 1917 and was killed. It was when she was 21 she learned that soon after he left for France his true love discovered she was pregnant.
It was after she became 21 my mother made contact with her real mother; but my mother never did learn the name of her real father.
I was much past 21 when she told me her story.
And today I think of my long-dead grandfather with no name and the grandmother I met one time, and my mother now dead.
Knowing full well that if those events had unfolded any other way I would not be here.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:46 AM on July 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
When she was 21, my mother was informed her parents were not her natural parents, but had adopted her.
It was when she was 21 she learned her real father had gone off to war in 1917 and was killed. It was when she was 21 she learned that soon after he left for France his true love discovered she was pregnant.
It was after she became 21 my mother made contact with her real mother; but my mother never did learn the name of her real father.
I was much past 21 when she told me her story.
And today I think of my long-dead grandfather with no name and the grandmother I met one time, and my mother now dead.
Knowing full well that if those events had unfolded any other way I would not be here.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:46 AM on July 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
our Mefi style gurus have seen fit to change how blockquotes look. Hence the small text.
Maybe hit me up on the contact form if there's a specific question about this, but the blockquote tag just sets stuff out a bit from the margin with whitespace top and bottom. I'm not sure what that has to do with small text, which is indeed difficult for many people to read large swathes of and is best used only sparingly.
posted by cortex at 8:51 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe hit me up on the contact form if there's a specific question about this, but the blockquote tag just sets stuff out a bit from the margin with whitespace top and bottom. I'm not sure what that has to do with small text, which is indeed difficult for many people to read large swathes of and is best used only sparingly.
posted by cortex at 8:51 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
Much ignorance, so remote analysis.
This from WP's monkeycage compares Brexit to leaving the Commonwealth or the WTO...
posted by infini at 8:58 AM on July 1, 2016
This from WP's monkeycage compares Brexit to leaving the Commonwealth or the WTO...
posted by infini at 8:58 AM on July 1, 2016
@Alexis Taylor: “Surprise new #ToryLeadership contender promises a ‘kinder, gentler politics’ than his predecessors.”
posted by Going To Maine at 9:04 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:04 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
The magical thinking of America's pro-Brexit conservatives
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:15 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:15 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm seeing the argument in quite a few places that people need to respect the vote to Leave or else we're "anti-democratic". The trouble with this argument is it pits a version of democracy that Britain has (almost) never had against the one that Britain has taken centuries to develop and has exported around the world. We are not a direct democracy. If we actually were, our lives would be far more stressful and exhausting, because direct democracy only works - that is, it only returns reliable results - if the population is fully informed and engaged. Arguably, the only one of the three recent referenda in the UK that qualifies as reliable was the Scottish independence referendum in 2014. It dragged on forever, we argued endlessly over a manifesto hundreds of pages long to the point of utter exhaustion (if you think a few months of the EU debate was exhausting, imagine doing it for twenty), and we turned out in such high numbers that nobody could argue that the people of Scotland weren't fully engaged. In the end, the doubts won it for No, but at least we had a debate about the doubts. Even then, there were many on the Yes side who felt that No voters were deceived by last-minute promises by Westminster, and on the No side who felt the same about some Yes claims.
The 2011 AV referendum, by contrast, saw low engagement (under 50% turnout) and a fair amount of misinformation, while this EU referendum saw fairly high engagement that was subject to a lot of (now openly acknowledged) misinformation on the side that won. This was direct democracy, yes, but of a kind that political thinkers have warned us against since Ancient Greece.
Britain, and almost every other democratic country in the modern world, is a representative democracy. We have elections, vote in representatives, and give them the job of considering issues to the point of exhaustion while we get on with other things. It isn't perfect, but it leaves room for negotiation beyond the vote itself, for back-tracking if new evidence emerges, and for being as sure as we reasonably can be before committing to major changes. There are many ways for citizens to exercise influence under this system, but it isn't direct democracy; our representatives will sometimes make decisions that a majority of the electorate opposes.
This current crisis has emerged from a direct conflict between these two forms of democracy: one we've dabbled with precisely three times at UK level, and one we've developed over hundreds of years. When someone accuses people like me of being an "enemy of democracy" for wanting to know whether and how Parliament can overturn this result, I could just as easily accuse them of being an enemy of British democracy, because referenda just aren't British. Who are the conservatives now?
There's no doubt that representative democracy in large modern countries has problems: MPs are far too removed from their constituents, and most individuals have far too little opportunity to be heard. A referendum is a tempting shortcut to determining the "will of the people" in that environment, but we've seen where temptation can lead us. One of the most interesting pieces I've read this week proposed an entirely different approach: using a system of sortition akin to selecting a jury for a trial.
With sortition, you do not ask everyone to vote on an issue few people really understand, but you draft a random sample of the population and make sure they come to the grips with the subject matter in order to take a sensible decision. A cross-section of society that is informed can act more coherently than an entire society that is uninformed.
Even if such a system is unlikely to make much headway here, we can at least respond confidently when someone tells us that we need to "respect the results of the election", as I've seen in newspaper comments this week. It wasn't an election, and that's the problem.
posted by rory at 9:33 AM on July 1, 2016 [26 favorites]
The 2011 AV referendum, by contrast, saw low engagement (under 50% turnout) and a fair amount of misinformation, while this EU referendum saw fairly high engagement that was subject to a lot of (now openly acknowledged) misinformation on the side that won. This was direct democracy, yes, but of a kind that political thinkers have warned us against since Ancient Greece.
Britain, and almost every other democratic country in the modern world, is a representative democracy. We have elections, vote in representatives, and give them the job of considering issues to the point of exhaustion while we get on with other things. It isn't perfect, but it leaves room for negotiation beyond the vote itself, for back-tracking if new evidence emerges, and for being as sure as we reasonably can be before committing to major changes. There are many ways for citizens to exercise influence under this system, but it isn't direct democracy; our representatives will sometimes make decisions that a majority of the electorate opposes.
This current crisis has emerged from a direct conflict between these two forms of democracy: one we've dabbled with precisely three times at UK level, and one we've developed over hundreds of years. When someone accuses people like me of being an "enemy of democracy" for wanting to know whether and how Parliament can overturn this result, I could just as easily accuse them of being an enemy of British democracy, because referenda just aren't British. Who are the conservatives now?
There's no doubt that representative democracy in large modern countries has problems: MPs are far too removed from their constituents, and most individuals have far too little opportunity to be heard. A referendum is a tempting shortcut to determining the "will of the people" in that environment, but we've seen where temptation can lead us. One of the most interesting pieces I've read this week proposed an entirely different approach: using a system of sortition akin to selecting a jury for a trial.
With sortition, you do not ask everyone to vote on an issue few people really understand, but you draft a random sample of the population and make sure they come to the grips with the subject matter in order to take a sensible decision. A cross-section of society that is informed can act more coherently than an entire society that is uninformed.
Even if such a system is unlikely to make much headway here, we can at least respond confidently when someone tells us that we need to "respect the results of the election", as I've seen in newspaper comments this week. It wasn't an election, and that's the problem.
posted by rory at 9:33 AM on July 1, 2016 [26 favorites]
Margaret Thatcher didn’t cause Brexit – but Brexit will bring back Thatcherism
posted by Grangousier at 9:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 9:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
My heart tells me that if we are bold, then for Britain - and its people - our best days lie ahead. #Gove2016
It's like a delusional, sub-par Triumph of the Will.
Watching the UK's prep school "elite" in action over the past week really brings home why nearly 20,000 British troops were slaughtered on the very first day of the Battle of the Somme.
posted by My Dad at 9:38 AM on July 1, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's like a delusional, sub-par Triumph of the Will.
Watching the UK's prep school "elite" in action over the past week really brings home why nearly 20,000 British troops were slaughtered on the very first day of the Battle of the Somme.
posted by My Dad at 9:38 AM on July 1, 2016 [15 favorites]
My "plan" is to go along to some UKIP events and see what's being said - is it the economic downturn amongst the working class or is it just all 100% "fuck the wogs". If it's the latter it's a battle that needs to be fought publicly and loudly but if it's the former then maybe some education around basic economics could lure them away from the dangers of a populist uprising.
So if you find people are voting UKIP because they're poor you're going to 'educate' them? You need to stop hanging around with middle class people, you're better than that.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:43 AM on July 1, 2016
So if you find people are voting UKIP because they're poor you're going to 'educate' them? You need to stop hanging around with middle class people, you're better than that.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:43 AM on July 1, 2016
It's not education that's required, it's institutions visibly giving a shit and actually doing something. Without that fascism seeps in through the cracks no matter what.
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on July 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on July 1, 2016 [10 favorites]
At the risk of linking again to a cartoon posted further upthread, it looks as though Team Gove forgot to register their campaign domain name beforehand:
http://www.gove2016.co.uk
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:26 AM on July 1, 2016 [19 favorites]
http://www.gove2016.co.uk
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:26 AM on July 1, 2016 [19 favorites]
Doktor Zed: "http://www.gove2016.co.uk"
They could also put up that Vine video of Gove clapping (linked far upthread).
Incidentally, I initially didn't realize at all that that video was real and unedited. I thought it was a clever photoshop (AfterEffects?) like the Obama kicking the door video. I mean, his hands look so small, like puppet hands.
posted by mhum at 10:33 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
They could also put up that Vine video of Gove clapping (linked far upthread).
Incidentally, I initially didn't realize at all that that video was real and unedited. I thought it was a clever photoshop (AfterEffects?) like the Obama kicking the door video. I mean, his hands look so small, like puppet hands.
posted by mhum at 10:33 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
We're living in a time where it's actually conceivable, if hopefully unlikely, that by November the PM is Michael fucking Gove and the POTUS is Donald fucking Trump. Hold me.
posted by billiebee at 11:08 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 11:08 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is the 1414th comment of this thread. I think that means I have to be prime minister now.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:11 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:11 AM on July 1, 2016 [12 favorites]
I actually think May now. She was a cautious in, but it's not a black mark with that base because she's always been a natural out. That caution is going to play well atm. The membership seems to have wanted Boris for some insane reason, and she did not knife Boris. And the non-Murdoch Tory press seem to be with her. The Mail and Telegraph are at any rate.
So relax, it's only Theresa May. :)
posted by vbfg at 11:12 AM on July 1, 2016
So relax, it's only Theresa May. :)
posted by vbfg at 11:12 AM on July 1, 2016
Boris lies to children too, claiming in a newspaper for kids that "If any of you are worried, this does not mean that the United Kingdom will be in any way less united. It does not mean it will be any less European" as regions plot to break up the UK and people commit hate crimes against "foreign-looking" folks on the streets.
posted by zachlipton at 11:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by zachlipton at 11:18 AM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
So relax, it's only Theresa May. :)
Theresa May, actual fascist? Totally relaxed, thanks.
posted by Happy Dave at 11:25 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
Theresa May, actual fascist? Totally relaxed, thanks.
posted by Happy Dave at 11:25 AM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can't see it but apologies if it's already been linked: The Torygraph outline of The Betrayal. I'm glad Boris got shafted but I'm gutted that Osbourne might have had a hand in it all and be rewarded - the pic of him looking like an evil imp sums him up for me. Speaking of photos, check out the shadow in the one of "call me" Dave. I knew he was a snake!
posted by billiebee at 11:29 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 11:29 AM on July 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is the 1414th comment of this thread. I think that means I have to be prime minister now.
Have you joined and resigned from the Shadow Cabinet yet? Need to do your stint there first.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:30 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Have you joined and resigned from the Shadow Cabinet yet? Need to do your stint there first.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:30 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
So if you find people are voting UKIP because they're poor you're going to 'educate' them? You need to stop hanging around with middle class people, you're better than that.
That's an amazingly disingenuous reading of my comment but since we're on the same side I'll put it aside and say that I'd love to hear your ideas of how to address the surging UKIP ranks in traditionally Labour areas.
posted by longbaugh at 11:32 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's an amazingly disingenuous reading of my comment but since we're on the same side I'll put it aside and say that I'd love to hear your ideas of how to address the surging UKIP ranks in traditionally Labour areas.
posted by longbaugh at 11:32 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
people commit hate crimes against "foreign-looking" folks on the streets.
Or just foreign-sounding; apparently saying a few words in Swedish to your children when picking them up from daycare is now enough to trigger an attack by the "fuck off to your own country" crowd.
posted by effbot at 11:33 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Or just foreign-sounding; apparently saying a few words in Swedish to your children when picking them up from daycare is now enough to trigger an attack by the "fuck off to your own country" crowd.
posted by effbot at 11:33 AM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
I want to highlight the first rejected Remain campaign ad here from Saatchi & Saatchi, because while there was no way it could have ran, it is one of the most haunting pieces of advertising I have ever seen.
And why the heck was this ad not everywhere?
posted by zachlipton at 11:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
And why the heck was this ad not everywhere?
posted by zachlipton at 11:35 AM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'd love to hear your ideas of how to address the surging UKIP ranks in traditionally Labour areas.
Something like the following?
"We understand that quite a lot of people have valid concerns about issues like housing, GP surgery waiting times, school places....we'd like to make it clear that we're aware of these issues, and we sympathise with your concerns, but immigrants are not responsible for these issues; the Tory government and their austerity programme are. Cuts to funding for the NHS, for education, for housing, are entirely the fault of the government, and we in opposition have opposed them. If every immigrant in the UK went home tomorrow, the government would not spend more money on these issues and would in fact have less to spend because the majority of immigrants to this country are hard-working people who pay tax, and whose presence is in fact vital for the continued functioning of public services like the NHS. If you want to effect positive change, join us to vote in a Labour government that will address these issues."
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:44 AM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Something like the following?
"We understand that quite a lot of people have valid concerns about issues like housing, GP surgery waiting times, school places....we'd like to make it clear that we're aware of these issues, and we sympathise with your concerns, but immigrants are not responsible for these issues; the Tory government and their austerity programme are. Cuts to funding for the NHS, for education, for housing, are entirely the fault of the government, and we in opposition have opposed them. If every immigrant in the UK went home tomorrow, the government would not spend more money on these issues and would in fact have less to spend because the majority of immigrants to this country are hard-working people who pay tax, and whose presence is in fact vital for the continued functioning of public services like the NHS. If you want to effect positive change, join us to vote in a Labour government that will address these issues."
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:44 AM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Theresa May, actual fascist? Totally relaxed, thanks.
Yeah, that's the one. Curious to see where my world goes now, given that I work in the IT infrastructure team of a university with a large muslim student population and a lot of outsourced IT infrastructure.
I may have to give thought to how much of this I want to be party to. Assuming we even survive the ongoing restructuring from fees, and all the research money that is about to have to come from somewhere else.
posted by vbfg at 11:48 AM on July 1, 2016
Yeah, that's the one. Curious to see where my world goes now, given that I work in the IT infrastructure team of a university with a large muslim student population and a lot of outsourced IT infrastructure.
I may have to give thought to how much of this I want to be party to. Assuming we even survive the ongoing restructuring from fees, and all the research money that is about to have to come from somewhere else.
posted by vbfg at 11:48 AM on July 1, 2016
Who owns this paper? WTF is all this about?
posted by infini at 11:49 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 11:49 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
That would be Richard Desmond who is exactly the sort of dick you think he is.
posted by longbaugh at 11:52 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by longbaugh at 11:52 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Richard Desmond, the nation's favourite pornographer.
posted by vbfg at 11:54 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vbfg at 11:54 AM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Depending on the day's headline, I may actually detest the Express even more than the Mail. (I'm on Merseyside, so thankfully, I almost never have to catch so much as a glimpse of the Sun when I'm in a queue.)
posted by skybluepink at 12:00 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by skybluepink at 12:00 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Interesting. Crap like this never showed up in Google News (for me, and my geo edition) and now its all over the place spewing this kind of nonsense. Wasn't the referendum enough for these guys? Talk about idiots.
posted by infini at 12:02 PM on July 1, 2016
posted by infini at 12:02 PM on July 1, 2016
Bless you, no. Benefit cheats and the unemployed next.
posted by vbfg at 12:03 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 12:03 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Then Muslims, LGBT folk and finally socialists.
It's like "First They Came" was an instruction manual.
posted by longbaugh at 12:06 PM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's like "First They Came" was an instruction manual.
posted by longbaugh at 12:06 PM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
The leave campaign is a revolution, and like all revolutions, it will eat its own
posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Something like the following?
The following text sounds exactly like a Corbyn speech.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:12 PM on July 1, 2016
The following text sounds exactly like a Corbyn speech.
posted by Coda Tronca at 12:12 PM on July 1, 2016
It's like "First They Came" was an instruction manual.
Just put little boxes at the beginning of each line and check them off one by one.
posted by Grangousier at 12:12 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Just put little boxes at the beginning of each line and check them off one by one.
posted by Grangousier at 12:12 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
Something like the following?
You can't fight populism with logic. You can only fight populism with populism — emotion, pie-in-the-sky promises. It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to promise something better.
That's how Obama won in 2008, and how Justin Trudeau won in 2015. Full-on "happy warrior."
posted by My Dad at 12:15 PM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
You can't fight populism with logic. You can only fight populism with populism — emotion, pie-in-the-sky promises. It doesn't have to make sense, it just has to promise something better.
That's how Obama won in 2008, and how Justin Trudeau won in 2015. Full-on "happy warrior."
posted by My Dad at 12:15 PM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
But you could fight populism that lies with populism that tells the truth. The latter is harder to pull off but will have a much longer shelf life than the former.
posted by penduluum at 12:22 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 12:22 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
The following text sounds exactly like a Corbyn speech.
If it were a Corbyn speech, he would be accused of xenophobia for suggesting that if "every immigrant in the UK went home tomorrow, the government would not spend more money on these issues". How dare he suggest that immigrants do not consider the UK home? Does he sympathize with the racists in the Labour party who snarl "Go home!" to immigrants, despite their home being in London, or Newcastle, or Cheltenham? Perhaps Corbyn will defend himself by claiming that his words have been misconstrued, and that he meant to offer support to immigrants. But even if this were true, his public image would remain tarnished by suspicions of xenophobia. Anyway, the very fact that his remarks could be so horribly misconstrued proves that he lacks the 21st-century communication skills to make his feelings clear. He must therefore be replaced by a media-savvy Blairite -- for the greater good of the country, of course.
posted by Abelian Grape at 12:38 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
If it were a Corbyn speech, he would be accused of xenophobia for suggesting that if "every immigrant in the UK went home tomorrow, the government would not spend more money on these issues". How dare he suggest that immigrants do not consider the UK home? Does he sympathize with the racists in the Labour party who snarl "Go home!" to immigrants, despite their home being in London, or Newcastle, or Cheltenham? Perhaps Corbyn will defend himself by claiming that his words have been misconstrued, and that he meant to offer support to immigrants. But even if this were true, his public image would remain tarnished by suspicions of xenophobia. Anyway, the very fact that his remarks could be so horribly misconstrued proves that he lacks the 21st-century communication skills to make his feelings clear. He must therefore be replaced by a media-savvy Blairite -- for the greater good of the country, of course.
posted by Abelian Grape at 12:38 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
"We are all facepalm man" Buzzfeed's round up the week as told by social media.
posted by Helga-woo at 1:02 PM on July 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Helga-woo at 1:02 PM on July 1, 2016 [8 favorites]
"We are all facepalm man" Buzzfeed's round up the week as told by social media.
Did Lindsay Lohan just win an Internet today? (context)
posted by effbot at 1:18 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Did Lindsay Lohan just win an Internet today? (context)
posted by effbot at 1:18 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lindsay Lohan's clueless-but-sincere Brexit obsession is making me identify with Lindsay Lohan in completely unexpected ways.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:26 PM on July 1, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:26 PM on July 1, 2016 [9 favorites]
Wales just played an outstanding game to beat Belgium 3-1 in the quarter-finals of Euro 2016. At half-time Alan Shearer pointed out that the Welsh team came up exactly the same way as the English team. There's just something wrong with England. Everything is a fractal of metaphor these days.
posted by Grangousier at 1:52 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 1:52 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wales voted Leave.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:56 PM on July 1, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:56 PM on July 1, 2016
So what?
posted by Grangousier at 2:03 PM on July 1, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 2:03 PM on July 1, 2016
So whatever is wrong with England on fronts other than football is also wrong with Wales.
posted by Dysk at 2:05 PM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:05 PM on July 1, 2016 [5 favorites]
It looks like the Telegraph, the Daily Mail and perhaps the Times have decided to dump Gove by the wayside.
As a Canadian who has spent most of the past twenty years in Japan, it's pretty shocking how much influence the media has in British electoral politics.
posted by My Dad at 2:50 PM on July 1, 2016
As a Canadian who has spent most of the past twenty years in Japan, it's pretty shocking how much influence the media has in British electoral politics.
posted by My Dad at 2:50 PM on July 1, 2016
Sigh. Yes, sorry. The way I was thinking isn't explicit and is a bit convoluted and hasn't been expressed before, but:
The problem with England is that the whole country is treated as an extension of London, and that all the politicians really just spoke to London and the South East, even if they were physically somewhere else. Their cluelessness is unbounded, but they are particularly clueless regarding the conditions that exist in the areas that are politically or geographically distant from London. As well as the obscene fact that they didn't give Northern Ireland a single thought, the same is true for Yorkshire, the Midlands, East Anglia, Cornwall and the other English regions as well as Scotland and Wales. The sheer scale of their monstrous irresponsibility is breathtaking. I think that this is a reason that the country voted the way it did, and why both campaigns thought Remain would win anyway and were shocked when it lost.
Wales is considered a region of England, which is why it voted the way it did. It was communicating with London via the big red button the same way Yorkshire or the West Midlands did.
But Wales isn't just a bit of England, and has the potential to be different if it manages to consolidate itself. The signs are not as unambiguously hopeful as with Scotland, but Welsh devolution gives the potential of a particular Welsh identity. That's what the football victory symbolises for me.
I say all this as someone who identifies as a Londoner first, a European second, then British and English hardly at all. Which makes me a part of the problem, but I openly acknowledge that there is a problem.
Also that trying to explain geopolitics through the medium of association football is probably a mug's game.
posted by Grangousier at 3:00 PM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
The problem with England is that the whole country is treated as an extension of London, and that all the politicians really just spoke to London and the South East, even if they were physically somewhere else. Their cluelessness is unbounded, but they are particularly clueless regarding the conditions that exist in the areas that are politically or geographically distant from London. As well as the obscene fact that they didn't give Northern Ireland a single thought, the same is true for Yorkshire, the Midlands, East Anglia, Cornwall and the other English regions as well as Scotland and Wales. The sheer scale of their monstrous irresponsibility is breathtaking. I think that this is a reason that the country voted the way it did, and why both campaigns thought Remain would win anyway and were shocked when it lost.
Wales is considered a region of England, which is why it voted the way it did. It was communicating with London via the big red button the same way Yorkshire or the West Midlands did.
But Wales isn't just a bit of England, and has the potential to be different if it manages to consolidate itself. The signs are not as unambiguously hopeful as with Scotland, but Welsh devolution gives the potential of a particular Welsh identity. That's what the football victory symbolises for me.
I say all this as someone who identifies as a Londoner first, a European second, then British and English hardly at all. Which makes me a part of the problem, but I openly acknowledge that there is a problem.
Also that trying to explain geopolitics through the medium of association football is probably a mug's game.
posted by Grangousier at 3:00 PM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also that trying to explain geopolitics through the medium of association football is probably a mug's game.
It's just not cricket.
posted by Dysk at 3:13 PM on July 1, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's just not cricket.
posted by Dysk at 3:13 PM on July 1, 2016 [15 favorites]
Incidentally, the ideal for me is the principle of Subsidiarity, probably not a word most of us have heard since the 1990s, which is that (according to Wikipedia) "social and political issues should be dealt with at the most immediate (or local) level that is consistent with their resolution".
Essentially a lot of power should be devolved to the regions, and Westminster should primarily be concerned with the co-ordination of the local decisions. However, since Westminster is at the moment primarily concerned with the ambitions of members of parliament I hold out little hope.
posted by Grangousier at 3:21 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Essentially a lot of power should be devolved to the regions, and Westminster should primarily be concerned with the co-ordination of the local decisions. However, since Westminster is at the moment primarily concerned with the ambitions of members of parliament I hold out little hope.
posted by Grangousier at 3:21 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Given that the referendum, which itself was an act of parliament, was advisory and non-binding, how could it be constitutionally allowable for the PM to invoke Article 50 on his own accord? I could buy an argument in favour if the referendum was binding on the government, because that would be saying that the government is leaving the decision entirely to the voters. But that's not the case.
The referendum result is advisory. That can only mean advisory to parliament. Which would in turn mean that invoking Article 50 has to be done by act of parliament, with the referendum advising them in *their* decision. A free ( non-whipped) vote would seem the best option.
I really don't think* any PM has the constitutional authority to leave the EU based on a purely advisory referendum result and without the backing of his government.
* Based on rudimentary knowledge of Canadian parliamentary procedure, which may or may not have any bearing on the UK equivalent.
posted by rocket88 at 4:11 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
The referendum result is advisory. That can only mean advisory to parliament. Which would in turn mean that invoking Article 50 has to be done by act of parliament, with the referendum advising them in *their* decision. A free ( non-whipped) vote would seem the best option.
I really don't think* any PM has the constitutional authority to leave the EU based on a purely advisory referendum result and without the backing of his government.
* Based on rudimentary knowledge of Canadian parliamentary procedure, which may or may not have any bearing on the UK equivalent.
posted by rocket88 at 4:11 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also that trying to explain geopolitics through the medium of association football is probably a mug's game.
Can we get the referendum overturned violation of the offside rule?
posted by MattWPBS at 4:17 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can we get the referendum overturned violation of the offside rule?
posted by MattWPBS at 4:17 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
But Wales isn't just a bit of England, and has the potential to be different if it manages to consolidate itself. The signs are not as unambiguously hopeful as with Scotland, but Welsh devolution gives the potential of a particular Welsh identity. That's what the football victory symbolises for me.
I find Wales interesting in terms of national identity--or at least how I feel about it. Wales seems to share so much with England yet since medieval times has almost been defined as a 'not-England' by the English. Yet I feel as though the language difference is a more visible but less useful feature than those of culture and society.
Certainly were I to divide England and Wales in two, it would be not along the England-Wales border, but from the Severn to the Wash. If there's a cultural 'North' that includes Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, and so on, it also includes Wales. At least for me.
Naturally I bow to how Welsh people feel. But I can't deny that, while I would put Northern Ireland and Scotland in a category one step removed from me, I don't think of Wales in the same way.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:25 PM on July 1, 2016
I find Wales interesting in terms of national identity--or at least how I feel about it. Wales seems to share so much with England yet since medieval times has almost been defined as a 'not-England' by the English. Yet I feel as though the language difference is a more visible but less useful feature than those of culture and society.
Certainly were I to divide England and Wales in two, it would be not along the England-Wales border, but from the Severn to the Wash. If there's a cultural 'North' that includes Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, and so on, it also includes Wales. At least for me.
Naturally I bow to how Welsh people feel. But I can't deny that, while I would put Northern Ireland and Scotland in a category one step removed from me, I don't think of Wales in the same way.
posted by Emma May Smith at 4:25 PM on July 1, 2016
I really don't think any PM has the constitutional authority to leave the EU based on a purely advisory referendum result and without the backing of his government.
Counter-argument: Could Article 50 have been triggered already?
Counter-argument: Could Article 50 have been triggered already?
Some constitutional lawyers argue the referendum result itself has formally set Brexit in motion. [...]
When the supreme authority in a member state — in other words, the electorate — has already solemnly expressed its will via a referendum, the official results should stand for the [purposes of] notification.
It is true that the referendum is not binding. Nevertheless, the whole process that led to this referendum should be taken into account. That includes [a document titled] “the process for withdrawing from the European Union” published last February by the U.K; the negotiations with the European Union [at a summit in February] that resulted in an agreement that was favorable to the U.K.; and the public debate during this period. [...]
Therefore the notification already took place when the official results of the referendum were announced on June 24.posted by effbot at 4:30 PM on July 1, 2016
It appears that the position of the EU, at this time, is that Article 50 has not been automatically triggered and won't be until some kind of formal notification is delivered. Whether that notification is solely at the PM's discretion or should involve an act of Parliament doesn't seem like something the the EU needs to care too much about.
posted by zachlipton at 4:38 PM on July 1, 2016
posted by zachlipton at 4:38 PM on July 1, 2016
At the moment it seems like the Government promised the people a pony, and the people came back and said Yes, please, they'd like a unicorn, and then the Government realise they lived in a tiny apartment and had nowhere to keep a pony anyway, and unicorns don't exist.
posted by Grangousier at 4:44 PM on July 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 4:44 PM on July 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
So now everybody is competing with each other as to which colour unicorn they're going to give the people.
posted by Grangousier at 4:51 PM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 4:51 PM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
Emma May Smith - I can assure you, as a non-Welsh person who has lived in Wales, with family from and living there, that there is a very strong sense of Not-Englishness, and my sense is that it is coalescing into a new kind of Welshness, in the same way that a new kind of Scottishness has developed. Hopefully someone more qualified than me will give a fuller account, even if it's to tell me I'm talking nonsense.
posted by Grangousier at 4:58 PM on July 1, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 4:58 PM on July 1, 2016
The referendum result is advisory. That can only mean advisory to parliament. Which would in turn mean that invoking Article 50 has to be done by act of parliament, with the referendum advising them in *their* decision. A free ( non-whipped) vote would seem the best option.
This is why I'm finding the various EU official's lines like "I can see no way to reverse this decision" and “The decision has been taken; it cannot be delayed and it cannot be cancelled. Now [the British] have to face the consequences” sort of stuff surprising. Didn't they want Britain to stay in? Now I'm starting to think that as a group the EU is betting on the UK probably having to accept free movement in order to access the free market, but at the cost of losing any EU power, which in many ways is better for them, and certainly better than the special treatment they'd just signed off on in February.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:09 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is why I'm finding the various EU official's lines like "I can see no way to reverse this decision" and “The decision has been taken; it cannot be delayed and it cannot be cancelled. Now [the British] have to face the consequences” sort of stuff surprising. Didn't they want Britain to stay in? Now I'm starting to think that as a group the EU is betting on the UK probably having to accept free movement in order to access the free market, but at the cost of losing any EU power, which in many ways is better for them, and certainly better than the special treatment they'd just signed off on in February.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 5:09 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
> and unicorns don't exist.
I don't know what you can possibly mean by this; the Lib Dems promised me an IPU, and by gods they delivered.
posted by Quagkapi at 5:17 PM on July 1, 2016
I don't know what you can possibly mean by this; the Lib Dems promised me an IPU, and by gods they delivered.
posted by Quagkapi at 5:17 PM on July 1, 2016
Didn't they want Britain to stay in?
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:28 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
While we were in the EU, Europe was prepared to try and make it work, even though we were a severe irritant. Now that we’ve voted out, they just want us gone. The German chancellor, Angela Merkel, could not have been clearer. She’s not interested in Britain holding another referendum, and is not inclined to give it any special favours. There would be no “cherry-picking. There must be and there will be a palpable difference between those countries who want to be members of the European family and those who don’t.” In other words, we will now be treated like any other country – which is precisely what we assumed we weren’t.Gary Younge's Brexit: a disaster decades in the making
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:28 PM on July 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is why I'm finding the various EU official's lines like "I can see no way to reverse this decision" and “The decision has been taken; it cannot be delayed and it cannot be cancelled. Now [the British] have to face the consequences” sort of stuff surprising. Didn't they want Britain to stay in?
It's sort of like this: you live in a shared house and one of your roommates isn't that great and kind of whines that he has to live with you sometimes, but he pays his rent and helps keep track of all the bills andmakes the landing gears contributes to the potlucks sometimes and is reasonably ok to have around and sometimes even charming. Then one day he gets all upset and starts packing up all his stuff in a huff. The other roommates convince him to stay and tell him they'll try to be a little bit neater for him and he can even use the shower first if he'd like, but, you know, he doesn't get to be king of the house.
Everyone thinks that's sort of settled until he takes a dump in the middle of the living room and starts packing his stuff up again. At that point you don't start trying to come with ways to pretend it never happened: you call in the moving truck yourself.
posted by zachlipton at 5:29 PM on July 1, 2016 [36 favorites]
It's sort of like this: you live in a shared house and one of your roommates isn't that great and kind of whines that he has to live with you sometimes, but he pays his rent and helps keep track of all the bills and
Everyone thinks that's sort of settled until he takes a dump in the middle of the living room and starts packing his stuff up again. At that point you don't start trying to come with ways to pretend it never happened: you call in the moving truck yourself.
posted by zachlipton at 5:29 PM on July 1, 2016 [36 favorites]
It was well known and agreed up front that the referendum was not binding. Anyone who would argue that Article 50 was automatically triggered by the result is being deliberately obtuse.
By the same logic, would the PM have had the authority to personally implement Article 50 two weeks ago before the vote? Of course not, so a non-binding referendum shouldn't change that.
Either this requires an act of parliament, including House of Lords approval and royal assent, or else it sets a precedent that the PM has singular executive power to break any treaty he pleases whenever he pleases.
posted by rocket88 at 5:46 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
By the same logic, would the PM have had the authority to personally implement Article 50 two weeks ago before the vote? Of course not, so a non-binding referendum shouldn't change that.
Either this requires an act of parliament, including House of Lords approval and royal assent, or else it sets a precedent that the PM has singular executive power to break any treaty he pleases whenever he pleases.
posted by rocket88 at 5:46 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Didn't they want Britain to stay in?
They did, and they bent over backwards to encourage them to.
Either this requires an act of parliament, including House of Lords approval and royal assent, or else it sets a precedent that the PM has singular executive power to break any treaty he pleases whenever he pleases.
If by "whenever" you mean after a national referendum that Parliment initiated, sure. Doesn't seem particularly capricious.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:14 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
They did, and they bent over backwards to encourage them to.
Either this requires an act of parliament, including House of Lords approval and royal assent, or else it sets a precedent that the PM has singular executive power to break any treaty he pleases whenever he pleases.
If by "whenever" you mean after a national referendum that Parliment initiated, sure. Doesn't seem particularly capricious.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:14 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
*puts "Should I Stay Or Should I Go" on repeat for three months.*
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:29 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:29 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
If by "whenever" you mean after a national referendum that Parliment initiated, sure. Doesn't seem particularly capricious.
It does if you clearly state the result will be advisory and non-binding, and then act as if that's not the case.
posted by rocket88 at 6:45 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
It does if you clearly state the result will be advisory and non-binding, and then act as if that's not the case.
posted by rocket88 at 6:45 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not if literally everyone whose opinion counts acts as if that's the case.
I mean, we've gone through at least two people who resigned rather than make that argument.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on July 1, 2016
I mean, we've gone through at least two people who resigned rather than make that argument.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on July 1, 2016
and unicorns don't exist
They're on the coat of arms, don't be ridiculous.
Although, amusingly (and IIRC), the unicorn was supposed to represent Scotland, Jacobeanly.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:32 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
They're on the coat of arms, don't be ridiculous.
Although, amusingly (and IIRC), the unicorn was supposed to represent Scotland, Jacobeanly.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:32 PM on July 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
Theresa May has said that the status of EU citizens currently in the UK will be part of the negotiations, with no further qualifiers or reassurance.
This is my unimpressed but unsurprised face.
posted by Dysk at 8:17 PM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is my unimpressed but unsurprised face.
posted by Dysk at 8:17 PM on July 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
The French President has told the British that the Brexit vote can't be reversed. Genius. Now the Tories have to reverse Brexit or suffer the indignity of being bossed around by the French President.
posted by humanfont at 8:53 PM on July 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 8:53 PM on July 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
Theory: EU leaders believe that the optimal outcome is for a chastened UK to fully recognize that it can't leave without massive economic pain. The best way to do that is to create maximum uncertainty for a few months in order to fully smash the Leave side propaganda. EU then states that Article 50 will only be recognized as invoked by an act of Parliament; Parliament is unable to pass the invocation legislation; status quo ante referendum is restored.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:14 PM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:14 PM on July 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Parliament is unable to pass the invocation legislation; status quo ante referendum is restored.
UKIP make massive electoral gains, increased hostility to foreigners and non-white citizens, plot of 'V for Vendetta' occurs.
posted by PenDevil at 12:01 AM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
UKIP make massive electoral gains, increased hostility to foreigners and non-white citizens, plot of 'V for Vendetta' occurs.
posted by PenDevil at 12:01 AM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
Theresa May has said that the status of EU citizens currently in the UK will be part of the negotiations, with no further qualifiers or reassurance.
This is my unimpressed but unsurprised face.
It's the woman who wanted to withdraw from the ECHR explicitly so the security services could violate the old ECHR rights with impunity. She wants to be able to look at all communications because of terrorism and child porn. She ran a van around London telling people they would be deported; it was almost certainly for the positive press in the Mail et al, given that it didn't continue when the majority of the press blanched at it. She chose to introduce rules to prevent the poor from being able to live with their foreign spouse (minimum salary requirement). She's an authoritarian who, at the very least, is very willing indeed to dog whistle very hard to racists. At heart, it doesn't really matter if she's a racist herself. She makes the UK more racist, and empowers racist views. She is another part of the same problem.
posted by jaduncan at 12:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [28 favorites]
This is my unimpressed but unsurprised face.
It's the woman who wanted to withdraw from the ECHR explicitly so the security services could violate the old ECHR rights with impunity. She wants to be able to look at all communications because of terrorism and child porn. She ran a van around London telling people they would be deported; it was almost certainly for the positive press in the Mail et al, given that it didn't continue when the majority of the press blanched at it. She chose to introduce rules to prevent the poor from being able to live with their foreign spouse (minimum salary requirement). She's an authoritarian who, at the very least, is very willing indeed to dog whistle very hard to racists. At heart, it doesn't really matter if she's a racist herself. She makes the UK more racist, and empowers racist views. She is another part of the same problem.
posted by jaduncan at 12:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [28 favorites]
The EU probably thinks that if Britain doesn't actually go through with Brexit, then that increases the odds of other countries holding "non-bindng" exit referendums as a way to renegotiate their relationship with the EU.
posted by Gyan at 12:56 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Gyan at 12:56 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Theory: EU leaders believe that ... Parliament is unable to pass the invocation legislation; status quo ante referendum is restored.
I actually think the moment for this passed with Borisconi and the current options will take us out irrespective. Gove will. May was Remain, but a cautious one and a natural Leave. She will too.
But, if this situation does arise, and I haven't completely ruled it out yet, then I expect that there is no status quo to restore. Schengen and the Euro for us if we stay. (Which I am so completely okay with, if it were to happen, and might actually be my preferred scenario. But I don't want to get my hopes up because we're outer than out).
posted by vbfg at 1:04 AM on July 2, 2016
I actually think the moment for this passed with Borisconi and the current options will take us out irrespective. Gove will. May was Remain, but a cautious one and a natural Leave. She will too.
But, if this situation does arise, and I haven't completely ruled it out yet, then I expect that there is no status quo to restore. Schengen and the Euro for us if we stay. (Which I am so completely okay with, if it were to happen, and might actually be my preferred scenario. But I don't want to get my hopes up because we're outer than out).
posted by vbfg at 1:04 AM on July 2, 2016
Either this requires an act of parliament, including House of Lords approval and royal assent, or else it sets a precedent that the PM has singular executive power to break any treaty he pleases whenever he pleases.
This treaty comes with an exit plan. Following the procedure laid down in Article 50 isn't breaking the treaty; it's politely following it to the door.
I don't know whether I agree with the argument that the PM's official notification should be enough to trigger Article 50, but there is such a thing as executive privilege, and it's not an inherently unreasonable position.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:40 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
This treaty comes with an exit plan. Following the procedure laid down in Article 50 isn't breaking the treaty; it's politely following it to the door.
I don't know whether I agree with the argument that the PM's official notification should be enough to trigger Article 50, but there is such a thing as executive privilege, and it's not an inherently unreasonable position.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:40 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know whether I agree with the argument that the PM's official notification should be enough to trigger Article 50, but there is such a thing as executive privilege
The use of executive power in this way is likely to go even further than the obiter comments in R (Jackson) v Attorney General [2005] UKHL 56 suggested might result in the removal of *parliamentary sovereignty* as an absolute right. I very much doubt that the PM deciding to do it whilst not himself being sovereign is going to fly.
posted by jaduncan at 2:12 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
The use of executive power in this way is likely to go even further than the obiter comments in R (Jackson) v Attorney General [2005] UKHL 56 suggested might result in the removal of *parliamentary sovereignty* as an absolute right. I very much doubt that the PM deciding to do it whilst not himself being sovereign is going to fly.
posted by jaduncan at 2:12 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wondered if this might start to bubble up: Conservatives face existential challenge, warns deputy chairman. All political parties are coalitions, usually coalitions between two distinct parties. This is the pre-Thatcher One Nation version - what Thatcher called The Wets. John Major was one, but got power by letting Thatcher think he was a true believer.
(Much more interesting character than he seems, Major.)
Anyway, the One-Nationers have always been slapped down or corralled before (Cameron is a corralled One-Nation Tory), but these are strange times. It will be interesting to see how far this goes.
posted by Grangousier at 2:38 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
(Much more interesting character than he seems, Major.)
Anyway, the One-Nationers have always been slapped down or corralled before (Cameron is a corralled One-Nation Tory), but these are strange times. It will be interesting to see how far this goes.
posted by Grangousier at 2:38 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
So they are going to use my friends and their one year old child as hostages during negotiations.
All because of a fraudulent campaign run on the back of fifty-foot purple lies.
At what point do I get to invoke Article 1642?
posted by Devonian at 2:47 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
All because of a fraudulent campaign run on the back of fifty-foot purple lies.
At what point do I get to invoke Article 1642?
posted by Devonian at 2:47 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
We're relying on Jeremy for that. So it could take a while.
But, yes, fuck 'em. This is a lot of my friends, too.
posted by Grangousier at 2:50 AM on July 2, 2016
But, yes, fuck 'em. This is a lot of my friends, too.
posted by Grangousier at 2:50 AM on July 2, 2016
But, if this situation does arise, and I haven't completely ruled it out yet, then I expect that there is no status quo to restore. Schengen and the Euro for us if we stay. (Which I am so completely okay with, if it were to happen, and might actually be my preferred scenario. But I don't want to get my hopes up because we're outer than out).It would be insane to take the Euro.
Effectively tying the UK economy to Germany's would just be slow-motion suicide.
Actually, with London's financial sector moving en masse to Frankfurt it wouldn't even be that slow.
If Remain had included that as part of it's platform even Scotland would have voted Brexit.
posted by fullerine at 3:01 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
EU leaders believe that the optimal outcome is for a chastened UK to fully recognize that it can't leave without massive economic pain. The best way to do that is to create maximum uncertainty for a few months in order to fully smash the Leave side propaganda.
I don't see how the EU acting in the most vicious way imaginable to protect its vision is going to 'fully smash' the Leave vote's negative perception of it. It didn't in Greece. You describe a chilling antidemocratic dystopia.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:05 AM on July 2, 2016
I don't see how the EU acting in the most vicious way imaginable to protect its vision is going to 'fully smash' the Leave vote's negative perception of it. It didn't in Greece. You describe a chilling antidemocratic dystopia.
posted by Coda Tronca at 3:05 AM on July 2, 2016
A C Grayling put the case for Parliament choosing to stay beautifully.
I can't add more than just to say that it is extremely worth reading, and that I agree with almost every word.
posted by jaduncan at 3:18 AM on July 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
I can't add more than just to say that it is extremely worth reading, and that I agree with almost every word.
posted by jaduncan at 3:18 AM on July 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
fullerine: It would be insane to take the Euro. Effectively tying the UK economy to Germany's would just be slow-motion suicide. Actually, with London's financial sector moving en masse to Frankfurt it wouldn't even be that slow.
I'm not sure that last bit would happen if the Untied Kingdom stayed in the EU and joined the Euro. I think that would make London quite attractive to the financial world. Possibly more than before, even.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:34 AM on July 2, 2016
I'm not sure that last bit would happen if the Untied Kingdom stayed in the EU and joined the Euro. I think that would make London quite attractive to the financial world. Possibly more than before, even.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:34 AM on July 2, 2016
Are you sure? My vague understanding is that the financial world likes the additional wiggle room of being based in an EU-but-not-Euro country.
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:49 AM on July 2, 2016
posted by Dr Dracator at 3:49 AM on July 2, 2016
I'm a bargaining chip, and people are still pretending I don't exist.
Hey, remember when everyone backing Brexit assured us that there was no way this would happen? Including people shooting down and rubbishing the fears of myself and other mefites right here on metafilter? You can fucking bet I do.
posted by Dysk at 4:10 AM on July 2, 2016 [23 favorites]
Hey, remember when everyone backing Brexit assured us that there was no way this would happen? Including people shooting down and rubbishing the fears of myself and other mefites right here on metafilter? You can fucking bet I do.
posted by Dysk at 4:10 AM on July 2, 2016 [23 favorites]
Dr_Dracator, no, I'm very much not sure. My understanding is at least as vague as yours. Maybe someone who knows more will weigh in.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:16 AM on July 2, 2016
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:16 AM on July 2, 2016
Today's March for Europe in London and Elsewhere: Fromage not Farage
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
AC Grayling's case hinges on the dire consequences of the realized outcome i.e. Brexit, and the slim majority by which it was decided.
The problem with that is the referendum and its conditions were authorized by the UK parliament, consisting of MPs who "are not delegates sent by their constituents but agents tasked and empowered to investigate, debate and decide on behalf of their constituents". Clearly, those MPs did not investigate or debate the matter adequately. They disagreed or did not consider that "So great a change requires a significant degree of genuine consensus".
Morally, not going through with Brexit may be the right thing to do, but that letter does not present a beautiful case but rather a post-hoc consequentialist one. Which is a more dangerous way to conduct policy, as it makes democracy appear an illusion.
posted by Gyan at 4:41 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
The problem with that is the referendum and its conditions were authorized by the UK parliament, consisting of MPs who "are not delegates sent by their constituents but agents tasked and empowered to investigate, debate and decide on behalf of their constituents". Clearly, those MPs did not investigate or debate the matter adequately. They disagreed or did not consider that "So great a change requires a significant degree of genuine consensus".
Morally, not going through with Brexit may be the right thing to do, but that letter does not present a beautiful case but rather a post-hoc consequentialist one. Which is a more dangerous way to conduct policy, as it makes democracy appear an illusion.
posted by Gyan at 4:41 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Coda Tronca: I don't see how the EU acting in the most vicious way imaginable to protect its vision is going to 'fully smash' the Leave vote's negative perception of it. It didn't in Greece. You describe a chilling antidemocratic dystopia.
I don't think you get it. This isn't about smashing the Leave side's negative perception of the EU, it's about smashing the Leave side's lie that we can leave the EU and yet still have all the positives of being in the EU. Letting us have our cake and eat it wouldn't be in the democratic interests of every other member state of the EU, so I fail to see why not going along with it is a 'chilling antidemocratic dystopia'.
"I want all of you to give me more than you have."
"No."
"Facists!"
posted by MattWPBS at 4:42 AM on July 2, 2016 [24 favorites]
I don't think you get it. This isn't about smashing the Leave side's negative perception of the EU, it's about smashing the Leave side's lie that we can leave the EU and yet still have all the positives of being in the EU. Letting us have our cake and eat it wouldn't be in the democratic interests of every other member state of the EU, so I fail to see why not going along with it is a 'chilling antidemocratic dystopia'.
"I want all of you to give me more than you have."
"No."
"Facists!"
posted by MattWPBS at 4:42 AM on July 2, 2016 [24 favorites]
Schengen and the Euro for us if we stay.
There is no, repeat no, way we are joining the Euro. No way, no how is any British Chancellor going to tie themselves to that slow motion deflationary car crash of a currency.
posted by pharm at 4:50 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is no, repeat no, way we are joining the Euro. No way, no how is any British Chancellor going to tie themselves to that slow motion deflationary car crash of a currency.
posted by pharm at 4:50 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Gyan: I disagree, because I agree with the point that a 52/48 advisory referendum does not offer string enough advice to justify the action required. If the Tories wanted it to be binding, they could and should have made it binding. They didn't. If there's a second referendum, I suspect they'll lose it.
It's hard to call that overwhelmingly legitimate.
posted by jaduncan at 5:10 AM on July 2, 2016
It's hard to call that overwhelmingly legitimate.
posted by jaduncan at 5:10 AM on July 2, 2016
There is no, repeat no, way we are joining the Euro.
The euro is always voluntary in practice in any case, regardless of rhetoric. The criteria for joining include a history of membership in ERM II. ERM II is voluntary, and one can maintain a currency level outside it. Countries might theoretically be eventually joining the Euro, but joining (and staying in) ERM II is the real choice/tell for each member state's real intentions.
posted by jaduncan at 5:14 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
The euro is always voluntary in practice in any case, regardless of rhetoric. The criteria for joining include a history of membership in ERM II. ERM II is voluntary, and one can maintain a currency level outside it. Countries might theoretically be eventually joining the Euro, but joining (and staying in) ERM II is the real choice/tell for each member state's real intentions.
posted by jaduncan at 5:14 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was upto parliament to say that 60% is required to pass. They didn't. This is seller's remorse.
posted by Gyan at 5:14 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Gyan at 5:14 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
It was up to them to make it binding. They didn't.
posted by jaduncan at 5:15 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 5:15 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Indeed, it was explicitly advisory.
posted by jaduncan at 5:16 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jaduncan at 5:16 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
The key point is they were only willing to accept one answer. This "non-binding" and "slim majority" is being appealed to, because they got the wrong answer. The referendum shouldn't have been authorized in the first place.
posted by Gyan at 5:19 AM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Gyan at 5:19 AM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
It is non-binding. The campaigning was obviously and non-arguably fraudulent.
Those two factors alone are enough.
posted by Devonian at 5:23 AM on July 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Those two factors alone are enough.
posted by Devonian at 5:23 AM on July 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's no inverted commas on non-binding, that's what it was. You can't claim a massive mandate on a 52/48 split, and it's also notable that the campaign time was massively compressed compared to the Scots indyref, where, for the record, I think the wrong side won in my view but completely accept the result as democratically legitimate.
posted by jaduncan at 5:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 5:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
The referendum may have been non-binding, but once you cry "Fire!" in a crowded building, it doesn't matter what you say afterwards.
posted by scruss at 7:26 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 7:26 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well it kind of does. You can say "sorry false alarm" or "well since people think there's a fire anyway I may as well drop this lit match".
posted by billiebee at 7:37 AM on July 2, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by billiebee at 7:37 AM on July 2, 2016 [14 favorites]
Kazuo Ishiguro suggests a second referendum, not on the Brexit itself, but what kind of Brexit the UK wants.
Yes, I am aware that many Leave voters voted that way wanting to stop “uncontrolled immigration”. I realise that “taking the country back” and “sovereignty” were for many people just euphemisms for “kick out the migrants”. A proportion of these people have, and will always have, an unshakeable hatred of foreigners (including white European ones). They are racists. But many others, I believe, who voted to “control immigration” are decent people who have, over the years, become angry and anxious about their lives, and the prospects for their children’s lives, and have come to identify immigration as the root cause of their problems. It is this latter group that must now consider carefully the wider context of that assessment, and decide what next step they really want the country to take.
[...] we will soon be faced with this question: do we as a nation hate foreigners sufficiently to deny ourselves access to the single market? This might easily be rephrased as: is Britain too racist to be a leading nation in a modern globalised world? However one puts it, it’s a question that will soon need to be resolved because, as we stand, the future PM has no mandate on what sort of Brexit to negotiate.posted by effbot at 7:50 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
If only the original referendum had had three options - stay, EEA, WTO - with a trigger level of 50 percent. That would have forced an actual debate on the details of leaving, which by itself could and probably would have tipped it to stay, and of course split the Leave vote and thus deflected the shitstorm...
posted by Devonian at 8:05 AM on July 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 8:05 AM on July 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
If only the original referendum had had three options - stay, EEA, WTO - with a trigger level of 50 percent. That would have forced an actual debate on the details of leaving, which by itself could and probably would have tipped it to stay, and of course split the Leave vote and thus deflected the shitstorm...
Farage campaigns on dirty dealing on the referendum, starts to pick up actual seats in the Commons and then literal fascists need to be dealt with.
posted by Talez at 8:10 AM on July 2, 2016
Farage campaigns on dirty dealing on the referendum, starts to pick up actual seats in the Commons and then literal fascists need to be dealt with.
posted by Talez at 8:10 AM on July 2, 2016
20 minute long assessment of the current situation by EU Law expert Professor Michael Dougan here.
Heartily recommended.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:12 AM on July 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
Heartily recommended.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:12 AM on July 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yes, I am aware that many Leave voters voted that way wanting to stop “uncontrolled immigration”.
There's this term 'free movement of people'--taken to mean international and not intranational movement--and I'm not sure how it's suddenly such a political dividing line. It seems as though one side considers it a human right which to deny is unutterable racism. Yet while the ability to leave a country should be a right, the ability to enter any at will is not. It is exceptional, not normal, that countries allow this (at least in the modern age).
Those who do not wish to be members of the EU (or similar situation) because of freedom of movement are only asking the same for EU countries as applies for most of the rest. There is, for example, no comparable freedom of movement for citizens of the US, or Brazil, or Thailand, or so many other places. Maybe we've been wrong to call it 'uncontrolled immigration', but I wish there was more recognition from all sides that something really exceptional is being asked here, and an understanding that it's okay to say no.
posted by Emma May Smith at 8:27 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's this term 'free movement of people'--taken to mean international and not intranational movement--and I'm not sure how it's suddenly such a political dividing line. It seems as though one side considers it a human right which to deny is unutterable racism. Yet while the ability to leave a country should be a right, the ability to enter any at will is not. It is exceptional, not normal, that countries allow this (at least in the modern age).
Those who do not wish to be members of the EU (or similar situation) because of freedom of movement are only asking the same for EU countries as applies for most of the rest. There is, for example, no comparable freedom of movement for citizens of the US, or Brazil, or Thailand, or so many other places. Maybe we've been wrong to call it 'uncontrolled immigration', but I wish there was more recognition from all sides that something really exceptional is being asked here, and an understanding that it's okay to say no.
posted by Emma May Smith at 8:27 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a continental European who has benefited from the freedom of movement from one nation to another, to the point of it feeling normal, not exceptional (and in fact, the only actual exceptionailty, if compared to the freedom to change state within the U.S., being the different languages that this freedom spans within the E.U.), it seems thinkable that one might say no to such a freedom, but also that this comes with a price, and that such a choice is seen as a trait of one's Weltanschauung.
posted by progosk at 8:44 AM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by progosk at 8:44 AM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
It is non-binding. The campaigning was obviously and non-arguably fraudulent.
Those two factors alone are enough.
The first factor is enough to require that the triggering of Article 50 requires an act of parliament (as opposed to an exercise of Prime Ministerial prerogative).
The second factor is one that members of parliament must take into consideration when they make their decision.
posted by rocket88 at 9:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Those two factors alone are enough.
The first factor is enough to require that the triggering of Article 50 requires an act of parliament (as opposed to an exercise of Prime Ministerial prerogative).
The second factor is one that members of parliament must take into consideration when they make their decision.
posted by rocket88 at 9:30 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Those who do not wish to be members of the EU (or similar situation) because of freedom of movement are only asking the same for EU countries as applies for most of the rest.
The exact phrase used in the treaty is "discrimination based on nationality". If you're a member of the union, you cannot discriminate against workers from other member countries. Same rights for everyone. It's really a very simple concept.
You're ok with discrimination, and you're perfectly ok to tell me and my kids, fellow Europeans, that we cannot move to your country, despite us being welcome everywhere else in Europe. Of course it's a dividing political line. Why wouldn't it be?
posted by effbot at 9:31 AM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
The exact phrase used in the treaty is "discrimination based on nationality". If you're a member of the union, you cannot discriminate against workers from other member countries. Same rights for everyone. It's really a very simple concept.
You're ok with discrimination, and you're perfectly ok to tell me and my kids, fellow Europeans, that we cannot move to your country, despite us being welcome everywhere else in Europe. Of course it's a dividing political line. Why wouldn't it be?
posted by effbot at 9:31 AM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
The exact phrase used in the treaty is "discrimination based on nationality". If you're a member of the union, you cannot discriminate against workers from other member countries. Same rights for everyone. It's really a very simple concept.
You're ok with discrimination, and you're perfectly ok to tell me and my kids, fellow Europeans, that we cannot move to your country, despite us being welcome everywhere else in Europe. Of course it's a dividing political line. Why wouldn't it be?
Nobody is proposing to discriminate. I do not think we should sign a treaty swearing not to discriminate and then discriminate despite that. I'm saying that it's understandable to not want the treaty, in which case there will be no discrimination because there will be no treaty. Discrimination is bad, but 'no treaty' is just a policy decision. To say no to freedom of movement outside the EU (and associated organizations) is a perfectly normal and unexceptional policy--the majority of countries take this position.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:44 AM on July 2, 2016
You're ok with discrimination, and you're perfectly ok to tell me and my kids, fellow Europeans, that we cannot move to your country, despite us being welcome everywhere else in Europe. Of course it's a dividing political line. Why wouldn't it be?
Nobody is proposing to discriminate. I do not think we should sign a treaty swearing not to discriminate and then discriminate despite that. I'm saying that it's understandable to not want the treaty, in which case there will be no discrimination because there will be no treaty. Discrimination is bad, but 'no treaty' is just a policy decision. To say no to freedom of movement outside the EU (and associated organizations) is a perfectly normal and unexceptional policy--the majority of countries take this position.
posted by Emma May Smith at 9:44 AM on July 2, 2016
In Ishiguro's "decent people who have, over the years, become angry and anxious about their lives, and the prospects for their children’s lives, and have come to identify immigration as the root cause of their problems", isn't there at least an "ill-informed" missing, next to that "decent"?
posted by progosk at 9:53 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by progosk at 9:53 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ishiguro -"This second debate will have to be one that is openly, unambiguously about the trade-off between ending free EU immigration and continued access to the single market."
But 'continued access to the single market' means nothing to most ordinary people who've just done 8 years of austerity. So the establishment tells us that what it really means is prosperity, and that without it there will be economic chaos. Which is basically what Project Fear was, and that failed. We've now even seen that the stock market has not tanked at all after the Brexit vote - so a repeat of Project Fear would be even less effective.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:11 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
But 'continued access to the single market' means nothing to most ordinary people who've just done 8 years of austerity. So the establishment tells us that what it really means is prosperity, and that without it there will be economic chaos. Which is basically what Project Fear was, and that failed. We've now even seen that the stock market has not tanked at all after the Brexit vote - so a repeat of Project Fear would be even less effective.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:11 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure why there doesn't seem to be anyone challenging the notion that freedom of movement is somehow harming the UK's labour market. Seeing the reporting on Lincolnshire, for example, it seems like a lot of migrants are doing jobs such as farm labour that Britons don't want to do.
posted by My Dad at 10:25 AM on July 2, 2016
posted by My Dad at 10:25 AM on July 2, 2016
Freedom of movement is a requirement of EU and EEA access. If the UK wants the benefits of access to the single market they need to accept the partial loss of sovereignty in regards to Border controls.
As others have said as well immigration has a negligible impact on wages in the UK. If UK wants to eliminate wage impacts then set a minimum wage or income for all residents.
But based on the exit polls it seems the most vehemently Brexit voters were older voters that are not really impacted by economic issues of immigration but are more concerned about social impacts.
posted by vuron at 10:33 AM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
As others have said as well immigration has a negligible impact on wages in the UK. If UK wants to eliminate wage impacts then set a minimum wage or income for all residents.
But based on the exit polls it seems the most vehemently Brexit voters were older voters that are not really impacted by economic issues of immigration but are more concerned about social impacts.
posted by vuron at 10:33 AM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
Do you really think that the UK can afford to lose the jobs and growth associated with the City?
Lose firms to the continent and there isn't a lot to provide economic growth in the UK. It's not like the UK is a manufacturing power house anymore. The UK economy is heavily dependent on financial services.
Not to mention that UK agriculture would basically die overnight without subsidized payments.
posted by vuron at 10:38 AM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
Lose firms to the continent and there isn't a lot to provide economic growth in the UK. It's not like the UK is a manufacturing power house anymore. The UK economy is heavily dependent on financial services.
Not to mention that UK agriculture would basically die overnight without subsidized payments.
posted by vuron at 10:38 AM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
We've now even seen that the stock market has not tanked at all after the Brexit vote
Why do you keep repeating this when it's not true? FTSE100 companies make most of their money outside the UK, but FTSE250 is still down and the GBP is stuck at bottom levels. And you haven't actually left the union yet.
posted by effbot at 10:38 AM on July 2, 2016 [19 favorites]
Why do you keep repeating this when it's not true? FTSE100 companies make most of their money outside the UK, but FTSE250 is still down and the GBP is stuck at bottom levels. And you haven't actually left the union yet.
posted by effbot at 10:38 AM on July 2, 2016 [19 favorites]
Seeing the reporting on Lincolnshire, for example, it seems like a lot of migrants are doing jobs such as farm labour that Britons don't want to do.
That this has become the accepted narrative tells its own story, when it's terrible working conditions for crap pay that quite rightly anyone with much option at all gives a wide steer. But rather than that being the fault of our whole food supply chain and dubious employment practices it's that local labour is idle.
posted by Abiezer at 10:45 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
That this has become the accepted narrative tells its own story, when it's terrible working conditions for crap pay that quite rightly anyone with much option at all gives a wide steer. But rather than that being the fault of our whole food supply chain and dubious employment practices it's that local labour is idle.
posted by Abiezer at 10:45 AM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
We've now even seen that the stock market has not tanked at all after the Brexit vote
Why do you keep repeating this when it's not true?
When it was all going down, that was relevant. Now it's going up - including the 250 which has climbed steadily since Monday and almost back where it was a few months ago - it's still relevant. I just don't think you can say it's 'tanked' yet, and since nobody really seems to be able to predict these matters, the present state of markets is what we go on, that's all.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Why do you keep repeating this when it's not true?
When it was all going down, that was relevant. Now it's going up - including the 250 which has climbed steadily since Monday and almost back where it was a few months ago - it's still relevant. I just don't think you can say it's 'tanked' yet, and since nobody really seems to be able to predict these matters, the present state of markets is what we go on, that's all.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:54 AM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
From what I understand, the employers are paying the same for labour, but it's the middleman agencies that are taking a cut, leaving the laborers a lower cut. And laborers can live cheaply and communally (as immigrants have always done) to lower their costs.
Meanwhile, the Brexit vote, which in part seems to in part have been inspired by anti-immigration sentiment will likely mean fewer British jobs as companies reconsider investing in the UK.
posted by My Dad at 10:56 AM on July 2, 2016
Meanwhile, the Brexit vote, which in part seems to in part have been inspired by anti-immigration sentiment will likely mean fewer British jobs as companies reconsider investing in the UK.
posted by My Dad at 10:56 AM on July 2, 2016
I heard Farage a couple of years ago or so being interviewed on Radio 4. He was banging on about needing to control EU migration because we needed the jobs kept 'at home'. The interviewer pointed out that all studies showed that immigration was a net benefit for the economy and thus actually increased the number of jobs available for everybody (as can be shown by the UK having the highest employment numbers ever).
Farage blustered for a bit, but was pressed on the point In the end, he said - and this is as accurate a quote as I cam make it at this distance - 'Yes, I accept that restricting immigration will harm the economy. But we need to have more jobs for our children".
You cannot encompass those two statements in any logically consistent framework.
As it happened, I was in a position at the time to put this into a piece I was writing, which got published. A couple of days later, my editor passed me an official complaint from UKIP saying how dare we print such nonsense and we should withdraw it at once. Thanks to iPlayer I could go back and find the exact time and date when Farage said this, checked my quote, and advised my editor to send back this intelligence to the UKIP press office.
Of course, we heard no more about it.
As Alyn Smith said, if you confront immigration head-on, it disappears.
posted by Devonian at 10:58 AM on July 2, 2016 [26 favorites]
Farage blustered for a bit, but was pressed on the point In the end, he said - and this is as accurate a quote as I cam make it at this distance - 'Yes, I accept that restricting immigration will harm the economy. But we need to have more jobs for our children".
You cannot encompass those two statements in any logically consistent framework.
As it happened, I was in a position at the time to put this into a piece I was writing, which got published. A couple of days later, my editor passed me an official complaint from UKIP saying how dare we print such nonsense and we should withdraw it at once. Thanks to iPlayer I could go back and find the exact time and date when Farage said this, checked my quote, and advised my editor to send back this intelligence to the UKIP press office.
Of course, we heard no more about it.
As Alyn Smith said, if you confront immigration head-on, it disappears.
posted by Devonian at 10:58 AM on July 2, 2016 [26 favorites]
From my link above:
>Hitachi also has a train manufacturing plant in Newton Aycliffe, as well as its global rail HQ in London, said Brexit represented a "boulder on the line".
It's almost certain that low-paid Polish immigrants are not manufacturing trains in Newton Aycliffe.
The Brexit is going to result in some very high-paying jobs leaving the country. I guess people can work in the fields again?
posted by My Dad at 10:58 AM on July 2, 2016
>Hitachi also has a train manufacturing plant in Newton Aycliffe, as well as its global rail HQ in London, said Brexit represented a "boulder on the line".
It's almost certain that low-paid Polish immigrants are not manufacturing trains in Newton Aycliffe.
The Brexit is going to result in some very high-paying jobs leaving the country. I guess people can work in the fields again?
posted by My Dad at 10:58 AM on July 2, 2016
That this has become the accepted narrative tells its own story, when it's terrible working conditions for crap pay that quite rightly anyone with much option at all gives a wide steer. But rather than that being the fault of our whole food supply chain and dubious employment practices it's that local labour is idle.
There's also the seasonal nature of farm work. Rent ain't seasonal. You can't even be guaranteed of working any given day if it rains or there's no order to fill. With luck, you'll get 65 hours a week for three months, and walk away with a good wad of cash even if it's minimum wage. With better luck, you'll get to take that cash to a country with a low cost of living and double it overnight (this is about the difference between England and Poland).
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:10 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's also the seasonal nature of farm work. Rent ain't seasonal. You can't even be guaranteed of working any given day if it rains or there's no order to fill. With luck, you'll get 65 hours a week for three months, and walk away with a good wad of cash even if it's minimum wage. With better luck, you'll get to take that cash to a country with a low cost of living and double it overnight (this is about the difference between England and Poland).
posted by Emma May Smith at 11:10 AM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Brexit is going to result in some very high-paying jobs leaving the country. I guess people can work in the fields again?
Tory platform: In the interests of full employment the wealthy can sponsor poor people to do manual labor in the field and in return provide protection and justice.
posted by Talez at 11:10 AM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
Tory platform: In the interests of full employment the wealthy can sponsor poor people to do manual labor in the field and in return provide protection and justice.
posted by Talez at 11:10 AM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
"Yet while the ability to leave a country should be a right, the ability to enter any at will is not. It is exceptional, not normal, that countries allow this (at least in the modern age)."
The thing is that a free market requires free movement of not just goods and capital, but of labor as well. A market that allows free movement of goods and capital, but not labor, is a monstrously exploitative market that's bad for the producers and, in the end, bad for the consumers, as we've seen and experimented with globally over the past 30 years -- you end up with slave labor factories in poor places, and wealthy places gutting their own middle classes. (And labor's hella hard to move freely because individual humans have relocation costs even when they're allowed to move freely, but at least allowing them to move freely is a first step.) Asking for a UK that allows free movement of goods and capital with the EU, but not labor, is essentially asking to replicate what gutted the middle class in the first place.
But it's also something the EU is never going to be interested in allowing, because the EU's conception of a common market is one where all three components move freely, which puts labor -- and thereby the majority citizens -- at less of an economic disadvantage against capital.
There's been a lot of talk in this referendum that the UK can reject free movement of people without rejecting the common market, but no, they can't, and it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the EU's conception of its common market. It's not just a high-minded political position that people should be free and discrimination should be illegal; it's a practical economic necessity for a common market that labor be as free as capital to move itself around. Having one without the other was never, ever going to be an option.
(Now, whether the EU should be going full Hamiltonian hog and integrating its banking functions so nations are more like federal states to offset localized economic dislocations that occur in large free markets is a different question. But the EU is not ever going to be interested in granting free access to the capital-and-goods parts of its market without access for the labor parts as well.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:40 AM on July 2, 2016 [31 favorites]
The thing is that a free market requires free movement of not just goods and capital, but of labor as well. A market that allows free movement of goods and capital, but not labor, is a monstrously exploitative market that's bad for the producers and, in the end, bad for the consumers, as we've seen and experimented with globally over the past 30 years -- you end up with slave labor factories in poor places, and wealthy places gutting their own middle classes. (And labor's hella hard to move freely because individual humans have relocation costs even when they're allowed to move freely, but at least allowing them to move freely is a first step.) Asking for a UK that allows free movement of goods and capital with the EU, but not labor, is essentially asking to replicate what gutted the middle class in the first place.
But it's also something the EU is never going to be interested in allowing, because the EU's conception of a common market is one where all three components move freely, which puts labor -- and thereby the majority citizens -- at less of an economic disadvantage against capital.
There's been a lot of talk in this referendum that the UK can reject free movement of people without rejecting the common market, but no, they can't, and it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the EU's conception of its common market. It's not just a high-minded political position that people should be free and discrimination should be illegal; it's a practical economic necessity for a common market that labor be as free as capital to move itself around. Having one without the other was never, ever going to be an option.
(Now, whether the EU should be going full Hamiltonian hog and integrating its banking functions so nations are more like federal states to offset localized economic dislocations that occur in large free markets is a different question. But the EU is not ever going to be interested in granting free access to the capital-and-goods parts of its market without access for the labor parts as well.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:40 AM on July 2, 2016 [31 favorites]
The thing is that a free market requires free movement of not just goods and capital, but of labor as well. A market that allows free movement of goods and capital, but not labor, is a monstrously exploitative market that's bad for the producers and, in the end, bad for the consumers,
Actually the NAFTA deal, which restricts freedom of movement, has worked out will for both Canada and the US over the past 25 years.
You could argue that the NAFTA agreement, which was signed with Mexico in 1994, has hurt American workers, but American manufacturing jobs were already vanishing (and they were not being sent to Canada, which experienced a deep and bitter recession until 1997) during the Bush I administration.
posted by My Dad at 11:51 AM on July 2, 2016
Actually the NAFTA deal, which restricts freedom of movement, has worked out will for both Canada and the US over the past 25 years.
You could argue that the NAFTA agreement, which was signed with Mexico in 1994, has hurt American workers, but American manufacturing jobs were already vanishing (and they were not being sent to Canada, which experienced a deep and bitter recession until 1997) during the Bush I administration.
posted by My Dad at 11:51 AM on July 2, 2016
Yes and you will note that NAFTA is a free trade agreement, not a free market agreement. It was also largely concerned with tariffs as an impediment to free trade. Your comparison is barely relevant, and has nothing whatever to do with the EU's conception of its own free market and what terms it is therefore going to consider for a possible Brexit.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:03 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:03 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Worth noting that NAFTA has been a fucking disaster for the Mexican working class and arguably for the American working class as well. Food prices, food availability, dumped American corn, pollution, violence and worker exploitation in the maquiladora zones - don't hand wave that away as if NAFTA had nothing to do with Mexican lives.)
posted by Frowner at 12:05 PM on July 2, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 12:05 PM on July 2, 2016 [21 favorites]
Your comparison is barely relevant,
Actually it's relevant as the US gets around freedom of movement by essentially ignoring "illegal" (no one on this planet is illegal) migration from Mexico and other parts of Latin America.
You will also consider that you and I very likely agree about the consequences of the Brexit, hold the same values, and, despite differing national perspectives (I think the US viewpoint, while not representative of everyone, is still relevant!) are on the same side.
posted by My Dad at 12:11 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Actually it's relevant as the US gets around freedom of movement by essentially ignoring "illegal" (no one on this planet is illegal) migration from Mexico and other parts of Latin America.
You will also consider that you and I very likely agree about the consequences of the Brexit, hold the same values, and, despite differing national perspectives (I think the US viewpoint, while not representative of everyone, is still relevant!) are on the same side.
posted by My Dad at 12:11 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Video from Sheena Moore who was one of the 1984/85 "Wives Against Pit Closures " which was formed to support the Great Miners Strike
"Wy We Voted Leave: Voices from northern England"
posted by My Dad at 12:21 PM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Wy We Voted Leave: Voices from northern England"
posted by My Dad at 12:21 PM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
"illegal" (no one on this planet is illegal) migration
This is a bad road.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:22 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a bad road.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:22 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a bad road.
What do you mean? I'll shut up after this, but the past 500 hundred years of colonialism have created massive problems for massive amounts of people. We really should not pull up the drawbridge, and we really should not be declaring other human beings, just like you and me, as being "illegal."
posted by My Dad at 12:24 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
What do you mean? I'll shut up after this, but the past 500 hundred years of colonialism have created massive problems for massive amounts of people. We really should not pull up the drawbridge, and we really should not be declaring other human beings, just like you and me, as being "illegal."
posted by My Dad at 12:24 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
People might not be "illegal", but "illegal migration" is certainly a thing.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:29 PM on July 2, 2016
posted by Going To Maine at 12:29 PM on July 2, 2016
Nobody is proposing to discriminate. I do not think we should sign a treaty swearing not to discriminate and then discriminate despite that. I'm saying that it's understandable to not want the treaty, in which case there will be no discrimination because there will be no treaty. Discrimination is bad, but 'no treaty' is just a policy decision.
A policy decision to discriminate between UK nationals and EU nationals. Something which is not done currently. It would literally be a decision to introduce discrimination where there currently is none.
posted by Dysk at 12:39 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
A policy decision to discriminate between UK nationals and EU nationals. Something which is not done currently. It would literally be a decision to introduce discrimination where there currently is none.
posted by Dysk at 12:39 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
It seems to me that everyone sort of vaguely agrees that the situation of having for example low-wage, high-instability agricultural jobs worked primarily by immigrants is an unfortunate situation. But the problem is that putting a complex economic situation to a vote by the common citizen is a terrible way to solve the problem. "Stop immigrants" is not a solution. Assuming it was POSSIBLE (and hey, you're an island, maybe you can allocate the money to actually totally secure all your beaches), that doesn't solve the problem.
So now you have a bunch of low-wage shitty jobs that British folks have to do. But they want higher wages and better conditions. Which means farms are either going to go under or their costs will rise really steeply. Which means your goods are now way more expensive. And you can't export them and the terms for importing have gotten worse, so the cost of food for Britons has risen drastically.
And somehow this is supposed to be better? I suppose the alternative is to totally cut all social safety nets, forcing Brits to work ANY job no matter how shitty for any wage no matter how low. So they can support low prices for the more affluent. But then you just have a class of surfs.
I don't have the perfect answer, of course. But the function of immigration in a society seems to be to fill the lowest tier of jobs with people who are willing to do them, typically on a temporary basis, to economically benefit everyone else in the society.
posted by threeturtles at 12:43 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
So now you have a bunch of low-wage shitty jobs that British folks have to do. But they want higher wages and better conditions. Which means farms are either going to go under or their costs will rise really steeply. Which means your goods are now way more expensive. And you can't export them and the terms for importing have gotten worse, so the cost of food for Britons has risen drastically.
And somehow this is supposed to be better? I suppose the alternative is to totally cut all social safety nets, forcing Brits to work ANY job no matter how shitty for any wage no matter how low. So they can support low prices for the more affluent. But then you just have a class of surfs.
I don't have the perfect answer, of course. But the function of immigration in a society seems to be to fill the lowest tier of jobs with people who are willing to do them, typically on a temporary basis, to economically benefit everyone else in the society.
posted by threeturtles at 12:43 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
The reality is that markets transect national borders at this point and it's a fool's errand to try to reverse that.
Unfortunately the other reality is that labor has generally lagged behind capital in terms of mobility in this last half-century or so. So capital can exploit spatial mismatches related to excess workforce by moving to locations where the available workforce exceeds the number of available jobs. This allows for a reduction in the cost of production related to your labor expense.
As long as you have an available productive workforce and your other increased costs (shipping, tariffs, etc) don't exceed you cost savings relocating production to low cost markets is a smart idea that result in a better ROI.
In the cases where the means of production is less mobile (due to high levels of specialization or high start-up costs) there are substantial advantages to allowing freedom of movement because you can avoid the inflationary tendencies related to having a small but critical workforce.
In regards to low end service level jobs there is always going to be a market for low cost skilled and unskilled labor and migration patterns typically mirror that as people with the skills migrate either illegally or legally to find work. Illegal migration has the additional negative impact of severely impacting wages because undocumented workers typically cannot take advantage of labor protections due to their immigration status. So freedom of movement actually works to avoid the production of a vast permanent underclass.
posted by vuron at 12:43 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Unfortunately the other reality is that labor has generally lagged behind capital in terms of mobility in this last half-century or so. So capital can exploit spatial mismatches related to excess workforce by moving to locations where the available workforce exceeds the number of available jobs. This allows for a reduction in the cost of production related to your labor expense.
As long as you have an available productive workforce and your other increased costs (shipping, tariffs, etc) don't exceed you cost savings relocating production to low cost markets is a smart idea that result in a better ROI.
In the cases where the means of production is less mobile (due to high levels of specialization or high start-up costs) there are substantial advantages to allowing freedom of movement because you can avoid the inflationary tendencies related to having a small but critical workforce.
In regards to low end service level jobs there is always going to be a market for low cost skilled and unskilled labor and migration patterns typically mirror that as people with the skills migrate either illegally or legally to find work. Illegal migration has the additional negative impact of severely impacting wages because undocumented workers typically cannot take advantage of labor protections due to their immigration status. So freedom of movement actually works to avoid the production of a vast permanent underclass.
posted by vuron at 12:43 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Brexit is going to result in some very high-paying jobs leaving the countryI think the preferred term is outsourced.
posted by fullerine at 12:47 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't have the perfect answer, of course. But the function of immigration in a society seems to be to fill the lowest tier of jobs with people who are willing to do them, typically on a temporary basis, to economically benefit everyone else in the society.
What the hell? "Import foreigners to do shitty work." It's just unbelievable that anybody but the rich and most ardently neoliberal would believe anything like that. It's against everything I believe in and is wholly illiberal. It manages to be both racist and classist, playing two disadvantaged groups off against each other.
posted by Emma May Smith at 12:49 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
What the hell? "Import foreigners to do shitty work." It's just unbelievable that anybody but the rich and most ardently neoliberal would believe anything like that. It's against everything I believe in and is wholly illiberal. It manages to be both racist and classist, playing two disadvantaged groups off against each other.
posted by Emma May Smith at 12:49 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Import foreigners to do shitty work."
That quote... who said that? I've done a Ctrl-F and can't find it anywhere.
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:00 PM on July 2, 2016
That quote... who said that? I've done a Ctrl-F and can't find it anywhere.
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:00 PM on July 2, 2016
Ok, Emma May Smith, I am open to hearing your alternative proposal. Eliminating the industries with shitty jobs? Outsourcing them to China?
posted by threeturtles at 1:01 PM on July 2, 2016
posted by threeturtles at 1:01 PM on July 2, 2016
The reality is that immigration really isn't about importing people in order to exploit them. In fact closed borders actually work better from an exploitation stand point because then labor can't flow as easily as capital or the means of production.
Furthermore it's almost always preferable to be able to exploit people in locations where there are weak labor and environmental laws because you can avoid having to deal with pesky collective bargaining agreements and you can fire at will or even engage in old favorites like corporate script or slave labor. Plus weak environmental laws allow you to avoid the externalities of resource exploitation.
The reality is that the interests of socialist and nationalists are frequently in conflict with each other. Socialists shouldn't be focused on trade protectionism but rather that free markets are established with a minimum level of responsibilities required of all participants. So the EU single market should be built around concepts of free trade but also freedom of movement and maintaining an acceptable level of environmental and workplace regulation in order to access the market. That way you avoid the race to the bottom issues that occur when you have free trade but unequal access to the labor market.
posted by vuron at 1:01 PM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
Furthermore it's almost always preferable to be able to exploit people in locations where there are weak labor and environmental laws because you can avoid having to deal with pesky collective bargaining agreements and you can fire at will or even engage in old favorites like corporate script or slave labor. Plus weak environmental laws allow you to avoid the externalities of resource exploitation.
The reality is that the interests of socialist and nationalists are frequently in conflict with each other. Socialists shouldn't be focused on trade protectionism but rather that free markets are established with a minimum level of responsibilities required of all participants. So the EU single market should be built around concepts of free trade but also freedom of movement and maintaining an acceptable level of environmental and workplace regulation in order to access the market. That way you avoid the race to the bottom issues that occur when you have free trade but unequal access to the labor market.
posted by vuron at 1:01 PM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
It hadn't occerred to me before, but isn't Scotland stuck with a catch-22 regarding their currency and seceding from the UK/rejoining the EU?
With the status quo, um, pro (situation as-it-will-be-soon) they're outside the EU and inside the BoE Sterling zone. I agree that the Euro is an absolute nightmare and seriously doubt single market access is worth the risk of joining the Eurozone as a small nation trapped under German monetary policy. Especially if you're trying to join when the continent is likely to be in a greater level of depression than now and the Troika will be leeching the patient.
But, if Scotland secedes they'll be stuck inside another single-currency monetary-but-not-fiscal union with a vengeful former master, itself almost certainly in economic freefall, with a history of pushing austerity to "fix" the problems the last round of austerity caused.
"Currency union with the Traitor Nation" is not a good look for EU membership. "Setting up an independent currency ON TOP OF seceding from the Assigned National Unit" is a much, much, worse look. "Joining the Eurozone at the worst possible time," I mean holy shit look at Greece.
The only option left is for Scotland to go it alone, which, fuck it, at least comes with a side of spite.
posted by 3urypteris at 1:07 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
With the status quo, um, pro (situation as-it-will-be-soon) they're outside the EU and inside the BoE Sterling zone. I agree that the Euro is an absolute nightmare and seriously doubt single market access is worth the risk of joining the Eurozone as a small nation trapped under German monetary policy. Especially if you're trying to join when the continent is likely to be in a greater level of depression than now and the Troika will be leeching the patient.
But, if Scotland secedes they'll be stuck inside another single-currency monetary-but-not-fiscal union with a vengeful former master, itself almost certainly in economic freefall, with a history of pushing austerity to "fix" the problems the last round of austerity caused.
"Currency union with the Traitor Nation" is not a good look for EU membership. "Setting up an independent currency ON TOP OF seceding from the Assigned National Unit" is a much, much, worse look. "Joining the Eurozone at the worst possible time," I mean holy shit look at Greece.
The only option left is for Scotland to go it alone, which, fuck it, at least comes with a side of spite.
posted by 3urypteris at 1:07 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ok, Emma May Smith, I am open to hearing your alternative proposal. Eliminating the industries with shitty jobs? Outsourcing them to China?
Pay them more? Improve the conditions? Use technology and new processes to lower the need for labour?
That quote... who said that? I've done a Ctrl-F and can't find it anywhere.
It's called a paraphrase.
posted by Emma May Smith at 1:07 PM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pay them more? Improve the conditions? Use technology and new processes to lower the need for labour?
That quote... who said that? I've done a Ctrl-F and can't find it anywhere.
It's called a paraphrase.
posted by Emma May Smith at 1:07 PM on July 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Huge swathes of the left on Britain have moved from a position of solidarity to a minor variation of 'fuck you, got mine' over the last several decades - 'fuck you, getting mine'.
posted by Dysk at 1:11 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:11 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Pay them more? Improve the conditions? Use technology and new processes to lower the need for labour?
hmm, if only the Tories, the party the people have entrusted to guide the UK through this mess, weren't the ones who fight vehemently against EU worker protection rules. I'm sure everybody can trust them to suddenly implement laws mandating even better working conditions when they don't have any pressure from the EU, right? I don't see how trusting them to make things better for workers could possibly go well.
And businesses already have plenty of economic incentive to use technology to lower labor costs and will do that all on their own if it makes financial sense. That, of course, leads to more unemployment.
At the end of the day, if you're going to have a farm, you need people to work on that farm. Those people should be adequately paid and well-treated, which is why you have a minimum wage and laws to protect workers. But why is it inherently wrong for people to come from Eastern Europe to do those jobs, which in turn allows them to support their own families?
posted by zachlipton at 1:24 PM on July 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
hmm, if only the Tories, the party the people have entrusted to guide the UK through this mess, weren't the ones who fight vehemently against EU worker protection rules. I'm sure everybody can trust them to suddenly implement laws mandating even better working conditions when they don't have any pressure from the EU, right? I don't see how trusting them to make things better for workers could possibly go well.
And businesses already have plenty of economic incentive to use technology to lower labor costs and will do that all on their own if it makes financial sense. That, of course, leads to more unemployment.
At the end of the day, if you're going to have a farm, you need people to work on that farm. Those people should be adequately paid and well-treated, which is why you have a minimum wage and laws to protect workers. But why is it inherently wrong for people to come from Eastern Europe to do those jobs, which in turn allows them to support their own families?
posted by zachlipton at 1:24 PM on July 2, 2016 [11 favorites]
The reality is that markets transect national borders at this point ... ... So freedom of movement actually works to avoid the production of a vast permanent underclass.
The reality is that immigration really isn't about importing people in order to exploit them...
The reality is that the interests of socialist and nationalists are frequently in conflict with each other...
The reality is that the real world is what it is and economic theories are abstractions fallibly trying to explain and predict it. If you happen to percieve yourself as being trapped in a vast permanent underclass, the arguments of people saying that you don't exist won't really hold water for you.
The reality is that I just caught myself seriously, earnestly pondering the potential upsides of some sort of combination of "Nationalist" and "Socialist" policies would be and holy shit this is how bad things happen, isnt' it?
posted by 3urypteris at 1:27 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
The reality is that immigration really isn't about importing people in order to exploit them...
The reality is that the interests of socialist and nationalists are frequently in conflict with each other...
The reality is that the real world is what it is and economic theories are abstractions fallibly trying to explain and predict it. If you happen to percieve yourself as being trapped in a vast permanent underclass, the arguments of people saying that you don't exist won't really hold water for you.
The reality is that I just caught myself seriously, earnestly pondering the potential upsides of some sort of combination of "Nationalist" and "Socialist" policies would be and holy shit this is how bad things happen, isnt' it?
posted by 3urypteris at 1:27 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, that's why UKIP has been making gains against Labour. Fascism always comes with an empty hand, though.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is deeply troubling to me that the first large-scale trans-national union that puts people—actual, carbon-based life forms—on the same footing as units of currency and molded bits of plastic is being derided as such a catastrophic mess for everyone involved. Freedom of movement for iPhones? Sure, that's grand. Free movement of Won? By all means. $nationality people working farms in $country? Last straw, burn the bridges.
Why do we value such abstract concepts as money and things higher than we value ourselves? (For what it's worth, nothing in the EU treaties prevents Britain from setting higher minimum working standards for labor in its country, regardless of the front of the passport held by the laborer. Why can't we have that, instead?)
posted by fireoyster at 1:31 PM on July 2, 2016 [21 favorites]
Why do we value such abstract concepts as money and things higher than we value ourselves? (For what it's worth, nothing in the EU treaties prevents Britain from setting higher minimum working standards for labor in its country, regardless of the front of the passport held by the laborer. Why can't we have that, instead?)
posted by fireoyster at 1:31 PM on July 2, 2016 [21 favorites]
My point was that, barring the total destruction of capitalism, it seems the EU has the best possible situation. Free movement of labor, so workers can move to where they can get the best jobs, in the best conditions. In a legal way with all people subject to labor laws and regulations to prevent the worst abuses.
I live in a place of rampant illegal immigration where immigrants are taken advantage of at every turn specifically because they are working illegally and have no legal status. It's not better this way.
posted by threeturtles at 1:34 PM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
I live in a place of rampant illegal immigration where immigrants are taken advantage of at every turn specifically because they are working illegally and have no legal status. It's not better this way.
posted by threeturtles at 1:34 PM on July 2, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well, that's why UKIP has been making gains against Labour. Fascism always comes with an empty hand, though.
I realize Fascism is emphatically not a solution to anything. To be clearer, I was confessing to momentarily seeing/feeling how that swindle ends up being appealing to people.
A very poor friend of mine once told me why he bought lottery tickets: "I know I'm not going to win, but for a second you feel like there's a tiny chance and you get to dream about cars and mansions. That's what they're actually selling."
posted by 3urypteris at 1:42 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
I realize Fascism is emphatically not a solution to anything. To be clearer, I was confessing to momentarily seeing/feeling how that swindle ends up being appealing to people.
A very poor friend of mine once told me why he bought lottery tickets: "I know I'm not going to win, but for a second you feel like there's a tiny chance and you get to dream about cars and mansions. That's what they're actually selling."
posted by 3urypteris at 1:42 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yup, that's a pretty apt comparison.
posted by Artw at 1:47 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:47 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yet while the ability to leave a country should be a right, the ability to enter any at will is not. It is exceptional, not normal, that countries allow this (at least in the modern age).
For the 420 million people in the Schengen Area, Europe has become a big place where they can freely move around for work, leisure and to see friends and family. Really, the absence of borders in Europe is one of those things that feels absolutely normal and unexceptional once it becomes reality, and leaves you wondering why it was not done sooner.
posted by elgilito at 2:46 PM on July 2, 2016 [20 favorites]
For the 420 million people in the Schengen Area, Europe has become a big place where they can freely move around for work, leisure and to see friends and family. Really, the absence of borders in Europe is one of those things that feels absolutely normal and unexceptional once it becomes reality, and leaves you wondering why it was not done sooner.
posted by elgilito at 2:46 PM on July 2, 2016 [20 favorites]
My children have never experienced the time before Schengen. To them, border control within Europe is absurd, the UK a strange anomaly.
My eldest read The World of Yesterday, and became very worried, because so many things were similar to what is going on today - not least the (re-)establishment of border controls.
posted by mumimor at 3:12 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
My eldest read The World of Yesterday, and became very worried, because so many things were similar to what is going on today - not least the (re-)establishment of border controls.
posted by mumimor at 3:12 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
So the EU single market should be built around concepts of free trade but also freedom of movement and maintaining an acceptable level of environmental and workplace regulation in order to access the market
Amoral capitlaism's gonna amoral, so vast tariffs for anyone producing goods and selling them ANYWHERE outside the norms of these regulations, otherwise capital goes elsewhere and we have bangladesh, vietnam, maquiladoras, sweatshops, etc. etc. etc.
But then you'd need a competent international inspection force for this, and world gubmint terror would be whipped up. You think the press came strong against Corbyn? Wait till someone actually proposes this kind of stuff.
posted by lalochezia at 3:17 PM on July 2, 2016
Amoral capitlaism's gonna amoral, so vast tariffs for anyone producing goods and selling them ANYWHERE outside the norms of these regulations, otherwise capital goes elsewhere and we have bangladesh, vietnam, maquiladoras, sweatshops, etc. etc. etc.
But then you'd need a competent international inspection force for this, and world gubmint terror would be whipped up. You think the press came strong against Corbyn? Wait till someone actually proposes this kind of stuff.
posted by lalochezia at 3:17 PM on July 2, 2016
Yep, once you realize that the EU is a supernational federation the idea of freedom of movement seems obvious.
The USA is a federal state and you very rarely hear complaints of migration patterns inside of the US which allow labor to move wherever jobs are available.
Yes there are some negatives about the US national economy because having 50 different regulatory approaches can be challenging but while we have issues where the lack of labor protections in the south has resulted in a shift in industrialization towards the south there are also situations where environmental regulations in California force the rest of the US into buying greener automobiles.
If Labour wants to lead focusing on supernational labor issues would be ideal.
posted by vuron at 3:44 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
The USA is a federal state and you very rarely hear complaints of migration patterns inside of the US which allow labor to move wherever jobs are available.
Yes there are some negatives about the US national economy because having 50 different regulatory approaches can be challenging but while we have issues where the lack of labor protections in the south has resulted in a shift in industrialization towards the south there are also situations where environmental regulations in California force the rest of the US into buying greener automobiles.
If Labour wants to lead focusing on supernational labor issues would be ideal.
posted by vuron at 3:44 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's this term 'free movement of people'--taken to mean international and not intranational movement--and I'm not sure how it's suddenly such a political dividing line. It seems as though one side considers it a human right which to deny is unutterable racism.
Because it's been economically beneficial to allow it within the EU. Given that it generates more money to be spent on government services, it's hard to find a justification other than racism/xenophobia for stopping it.
PS: The massive emphasis in the tabloid press and Mail (in as much as they can be separated) on demonising immigrants cannot easily be separated out from the general belief that we lose money when people immigrate, and the inexplicable belief that working age people don't generate enough money to pay for the public services to support them. If only there had been a recent demonstration that racists aren't prepared to believe in and/or don't care about such economic analysis. Maybe they could even go around telling people to leave the country, causing a five fold increase in hate crimes. I can't imagine that world, obviously, because in that world the presence of racism in this political debate would be so completely obvious that to ignore it would seem like quite impressive levels of intellectually pointless denial.
posted by jaduncan at 3:49 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Because it's been economically beneficial to allow it within the EU. Given that it generates more money to be spent on government services, it's hard to find a justification other than racism/xenophobia for stopping it.
PS: The massive emphasis in the tabloid press and Mail (in as much as they can be separated) on demonising immigrants cannot easily be separated out from the general belief that we lose money when people immigrate, and the inexplicable belief that working age people don't generate enough money to pay for the public services to support them. If only there had been a recent demonstration that racists aren't prepared to believe in and/or don't care about such economic analysis. Maybe they could even go around telling people to leave the country, causing a five fold increase in hate crimes. I can't imagine that world, obviously, because in that world the presence of racism in this political debate would be so completely obvious that to ignore it would seem like quite impressive levels of intellectually pointless denial.
posted by jaduncan at 3:49 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Those who do not wish to be members of the EU (or similar situation) because of freedom of movement are only asking the same for EU countries as applies for most of the rest.
The time to "ask" for this was a quarter century ago when the UK entered the EEA, not now when a generation of Europeans have intertwined their economic and social life.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:56 PM on July 2, 2016 [12 favorites]
The time to "ask" for this was a quarter century ago when the UK entered the EEA, not now when a generation of Europeans have intertwined their economic and social life.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:56 PM on July 2, 2016 [12 favorites]
Fot as long as I cam remember, I've hated the very idea of borders. Who gave anyone the right to make them? Why are they at this point on the map and not there? What are they doing? I can walk from A to B, why not C?
Some of that was the cold war indoctrination about being part of a free world in contrast to the Communist blocs. Some of that was the tail end of British imperialism, which had the implicit understanding that within the Empire, borders were administrative conveniences no more significant than parish or county boundaries. You couldn't look at the Berlin Wall and not know that it was wrong, and I don't remember thinking of my Indian, Hong Kong Chinese, Slovakian and Latvian friends at school that they were anything other than school friends in the normal run of things (minor public school, diplomat and defector kids, I didn't realise...)
And this was late 70s, early 80s - when the European Project was gathering steam,before the EU had even met the challenges of the fall of communism. (I mean - that worked quite well, right?) It seemed so natural that what is now called in computer security terms deperimeterisation was the natural and obvious and unstoppable process that led away from the terrors of the past and towards a workable, preferable and really rather wonderful future.
It's through that filter that I see the EU, Since then I've learned a lot about testing what seems natural and obvious and good against reality. The thing is, I still can't find it wrong. It's much harder than I thought, and - like being in love - needs much more work to keep it going than you would ever credit when you kick off. Nothing comes from nothing. But when you look at the evidence of what path leads to the best outcome, and what paths lead to the worst, the problems generated by knocking down borders are fewer than those from the opposite, and the upsides are greater. Partition rarely works (which gives me pause about #indyref2, but I choose to see that as a temporary measure until sanity seeps back in; 'we're both in the EU, what's the problem?' worked quite well in NI...). You don't need to close down freedom of movement for local governance to work, as every damn country in the world demonstrates.
You, whoever you are, stand on the same earth as I do, and breath the same air, and are warmed by the same sun. Who am I to draw a line and say - no further? We have enough challenges to meet. Let's meet them together.
I. Am. So. Angry. (Sorry, apoplexy still hasn't claimed me...)
posted by Devonian at 4:01 PM on July 2, 2016 [39 favorites]
Some of that was the cold war indoctrination about being part of a free world in contrast to the Communist blocs. Some of that was the tail end of British imperialism, which had the implicit understanding that within the Empire, borders were administrative conveniences no more significant than parish or county boundaries. You couldn't look at the Berlin Wall and not know that it was wrong, and I don't remember thinking of my Indian, Hong Kong Chinese, Slovakian and Latvian friends at school that they were anything other than school friends in the normal run of things (minor public school, diplomat and defector kids, I didn't realise...)
And this was late 70s, early 80s - when the European Project was gathering steam,before the EU had even met the challenges of the fall of communism. (I mean - that worked quite well, right?) It seemed so natural that what is now called in computer security terms deperimeterisation was the natural and obvious and unstoppable process that led away from the terrors of the past and towards a workable, preferable and really rather wonderful future.
It's through that filter that I see the EU, Since then I've learned a lot about testing what seems natural and obvious and good against reality. The thing is, I still can't find it wrong. It's much harder than I thought, and - like being in love - needs much more work to keep it going than you would ever credit when you kick off. Nothing comes from nothing. But when you look at the evidence of what path leads to the best outcome, and what paths lead to the worst, the problems generated by knocking down borders are fewer than those from the opposite, and the upsides are greater. Partition rarely works (which gives me pause about #indyref2, but I choose to see that as a temporary measure until sanity seeps back in; 'we're both in the EU, what's the problem?' worked quite well in NI...). You don't need to close down freedom of movement for local governance to work, as every damn country in the world demonstrates.
You, whoever you are, stand on the same earth as I do, and breath the same air, and are warmed by the same sun. Who am I to draw a line and say - no further? We have enough challenges to meet. Let's meet them together.
I. Am. So. Angry. (Sorry, apoplexy still hasn't claimed me...)
posted by Devonian at 4:01 PM on July 2, 2016 [39 favorites]
You, whoever you are, stand on the same earth as I do, and breath the same air, and are warmed by the same sun. Who am I to draw a line and say - no further? We have enough challenges to meet. Let's meet them together.
I was at a Dianne Reeves concert today. She had a 'one people, one world, one love' speech. It made me realise that's what most upset me about the vote. I don't want my country to be some parochial backwater that shuts itself away for fear of the world, I want to be part of a community of states and peoples that help protect each other and that don't draw divisions amongst people just because of which side of an arbitrary internal border they sit on. I have respect for that ideal, and I have respect for those who hold that within their hearts.
I guess, however awkwardly, I'm saying thank you. There's anger for both of us, but I also remember that there is us, and many people who feel like us, and I choose to hope that people can let go of their fears that our neighbours are somehow fundamentally different and suspicious people. I really needed to remember that, and especially today.
posted by jaduncan at 4:11 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
I was at a Dianne Reeves concert today. She had a 'one people, one world, one love' speech. It made me realise that's what most upset me about the vote. I don't want my country to be some parochial backwater that shuts itself away for fear of the world, I want to be part of a community of states and peoples that help protect each other and that don't draw divisions amongst people just because of which side of an arbitrary internal border they sit on. I have respect for that ideal, and I have respect for those who hold that within their hearts.
I guess, however awkwardly, I'm saying thank you. There's anger for both of us, but I also remember that there is us, and many people who feel like us, and I choose to hope that people can let go of their fears that our neighbours are somehow fundamentally different and suspicious people. I really needed to remember that, and especially today.
posted by jaduncan at 4:11 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Something I was thinking about with the mobility of people versus the mobility of capital: while if capital is free to move, people should be too (the whole point of NAFTA is to fuck people over by moving the money and restricting the people), people aren't money. Money doesn't care about living in the same neighborhood long enough to make friends, or staying close to family, or the difficulty of packing up a household, or what happens when you have a bunch of shit jobs and no social network to help you out. People can't move at the speed of money.
I suspect that the experience of moving-like-money is really different across classes, and that might be in play here. If you have a skilled professional job, you get recruited, you get paid well, you can afford a decent place (unless you're a low-level hire in Silicon Valley) even if it's small, you can get what you like to eat, you can get rid of your furniture in Boston and replace it in Seattle, etc. Moving has some glamor.
If you're poor, that's not how it works - moving for work is a last-ditch thing, it's super-expensive, it means giving up pets and furniture and family support. You move for work because there's a boom somewhere and they're hiring waiters or casino staff or oil workers, and if it's well-paid you're living in a barracks or on a boat, and if it's ill-paid you're in a shitty apartment. Or maybe you just move because you hope there's a job in another city, and you stay on someone's couch for a couple of months while you try to find something.
In the US at least (and I bet in the UK) people born here semi-consciously assume that everyone coming here is all excited because they are getting a "better life", lucky duckies, when actually a lot of people are coming here because their other choices are fairly shitty. One of the saddest things I've ever seen was when the mother from the family downstairs (in my old cockroach-filled place) was sitting on the porch of the building crying and crying and saying "I want to go back to Somalia".
So I wonder - perhaps at least some of the Leavers don't see mobility for jobs as glamorous (maybe kind of a pain to move, but lots of upside) but as something awful that takes you away from your family for a job that isn't really, on balance, very good.
I like labor mobility, but the solution to the problems of capitalism isn't only letting people move around to keep up with the money.
posted by Frowner at 4:37 PM on July 2, 2016 [23 favorites]
I suspect that the experience of moving-like-money is really different across classes, and that might be in play here. If you have a skilled professional job, you get recruited, you get paid well, you can afford a decent place (unless you're a low-level hire in Silicon Valley) even if it's small, you can get what you like to eat, you can get rid of your furniture in Boston and replace it in Seattle, etc. Moving has some glamor.
If you're poor, that's not how it works - moving for work is a last-ditch thing, it's super-expensive, it means giving up pets and furniture and family support. You move for work because there's a boom somewhere and they're hiring waiters or casino staff or oil workers, and if it's well-paid you're living in a barracks or on a boat, and if it's ill-paid you're in a shitty apartment. Or maybe you just move because you hope there's a job in another city, and you stay on someone's couch for a couple of months while you try to find something.
In the US at least (and I bet in the UK) people born here semi-consciously assume that everyone coming here is all excited because they are getting a "better life", lucky duckies, when actually a lot of people are coming here because their other choices are fairly shitty. One of the saddest things I've ever seen was when the mother from the family downstairs (in my old cockroach-filled place) was sitting on the porch of the building crying and crying and saying "I want to go back to Somalia".
So I wonder - perhaps at least some of the Leavers don't see mobility for jobs as glamorous (maybe kind of a pain to move, but lots of upside) but as something awful that takes you away from your family for a job that isn't really, on balance, very good.
I like labor mobility, but the solution to the problems of capitalism isn't only letting people move around to keep up with the money.
posted by Frowner at 4:37 PM on July 2, 2016 [23 favorites]
Frowner: I think one of the different things here between the EU and US is the language issue; for a lot of English people that didn't bother with languages at school, it's pretty hard to impossible to imagine moving successfully to any western European country other than Ireland for work.
The same is emphatically not true for continental Europeans, who tend to learn English early and keep up via conversation and watching US/UK media.
posted by jaduncan at 4:42 PM on July 2, 2016
The same is emphatically not true for continental Europeans, who tend to learn English early and keep up via conversation and watching US/UK media.
posted by jaduncan at 4:42 PM on July 2, 2016
British people still move to other EU countries just as much as (almost) everyone else in the EU, though.
There were an estimated 1.2 million UK-born people living in other EU countries in 2015. Those 1.2 million people place the UK fifth among EU countries for the size of their expat population in other EU member countries.
posted by dng at 5:15 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
There were an estimated 1.2 million UK-born people living in other EU countries in 2015. Those 1.2 million people place the UK fifth among EU countries for the size of their expat population in other EU member countries.
posted by dng at 5:15 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes. I'm just not sure that would apply so much to leave voters, who are presumably disproportionately likely not to be interested in doing so.
posted by jaduncan at 5:17 PM on July 2, 2016
posted by jaduncan at 5:17 PM on July 2, 2016
Do the English still retire in Spain to make their retirement pensions go longer and get mad at everyone for speaking Spanish or was that just something that happened in the 70s and 80s?
posted by vuron at 5:32 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by vuron at 5:32 PM on July 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
There was a public radio segment recently about UK expats in Spain, so they're still a thing. One opined that there were too many immigrants back home, which was odd.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:23 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:23 PM on July 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Definitely a lot of British expats in Spain. There was a good article in the Guardian a month or so ago. Not sure if they get mad at the locals for speaking Spanish, but the impression I got was that they don't really integrate or tend to learn the local language. Unsurprisingly they were mostly in favour of Remain, as they were worried they'd have to leave Spain in the event of Brexit.
posted by Pink Frost at 6:35 PM on July 2, 2016
posted by Pink Frost at 6:35 PM on July 2, 2016
Yeah, looking into I see that a large number of Brits still retire to communities along the Costa del Sol in Spain. Apparently retirement villages are fairly common where you don't even have to integrate with Spainards outside of consuming services.
Sounds pretty similar to some US retirement communities.
Of course a bit of me finds humor in the apparent likelihood that British expats living in Spain will be forced to return to the UK post Brexit.
posted by vuron at 6:36 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sounds pretty similar to some US retirement communities.
Of course a bit of me finds humor in the apparent likelihood that British expats living in Spain will be forced to return to the UK post Brexit.
posted by vuron at 6:36 PM on July 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Damn immigrants.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:42 PM on July 2, 2016
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:42 PM on July 2, 2016
Pay them more? Improve the conditions? Use technology and new processes to lower the need for labour?
But how? When agriculture tries to modernise using technology, they need a certain scale to do it in a cost effective way. Voila, agribusiness, with all the associated ugliness which comes along with it. Including the elimination of jobs.
Pay more? That will work, to a point, particularly if there is no safety net. In many countries which provide a social safety net (health care, schooling, food on the table, housing) you would be hard pressed to pay enough for some people to do some jobs. Tulip bulb production in the Netherlands is a particularly good example. So is domestic labor-- house cleaning, child care, and elderly care. At a certain moment, you end up paying so much for the labor that the service goes out of the reach for the many. So then what? Raise taxes and subsidise? For elderly care, maybe. For tulip bulbs? No. So a domestic industry which has lasted for hundreds of years is lost--- probably to another country.
You're talking about class solidarity with immigrants, and I completely agree with you. But unrestricted migration (at least within a reasonable swing of conditions and income) is one of the only ways I can think of to really be fair to everyone. What I think is *appalling* is controlled migration which essentially traps the migrants into a permanent underclass-- domestic workers here in Hong Kong, seasonal workers in the US. If you depend on the labor, then you must let them settle and depend on the same opportunities as your nationals have.
This discussion is part of the whole problem. Labor and capital movement is complex-- and expressing that complexity is really challenging. And often feels counter-intuitive to the people who are living in the day to day reality of poverty. The real screwing by the government is the steady erosion of the safety net.
I realise it is easier to believe the government is screwing you with unrestrained globalisation (expressed primarily through immigration)-- the immigrant can be hung with the sins of the city and driven into the desert. But when that doesn't work? When the scapegoat fails and the government is still screwing you? Who gets the blame at that point?
posted by frumiousb at 6:42 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
But how? When agriculture tries to modernise using technology, they need a certain scale to do it in a cost effective way. Voila, agribusiness, with all the associated ugliness which comes along with it. Including the elimination of jobs.
Pay more? That will work, to a point, particularly if there is no safety net. In many countries which provide a social safety net (health care, schooling, food on the table, housing) you would be hard pressed to pay enough for some people to do some jobs. Tulip bulb production in the Netherlands is a particularly good example. So is domestic labor-- house cleaning, child care, and elderly care. At a certain moment, you end up paying so much for the labor that the service goes out of the reach for the many. So then what? Raise taxes and subsidise? For elderly care, maybe. For tulip bulbs? No. So a domestic industry which has lasted for hundreds of years is lost--- probably to another country.
You're talking about class solidarity with immigrants, and I completely agree with you. But unrestricted migration (at least within a reasonable swing of conditions and income) is one of the only ways I can think of to really be fair to everyone. What I think is *appalling* is controlled migration which essentially traps the migrants into a permanent underclass-- domestic workers here in Hong Kong, seasonal workers in the US. If you depend on the labor, then you must let them settle and depend on the same opportunities as your nationals have.
This discussion is part of the whole problem. Labor and capital movement is complex-- and expressing that complexity is really challenging. And often feels counter-intuitive to the people who are living in the day to day reality of poverty. The real screwing by the government is the steady erosion of the safety net.
I realise it is easier to believe the government is screwing you with unrestrained globalisation (expressed primarily through immigration)-- the immigrant can be hung with the sins of the city and driven into the desert. But when that doesn't work? When the scapegoat fails and the government is still screwing you? Who gets the blame at that point?
posted by frumiousb at 6:42 PM on July 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Brexit, a one-act:
UK: Good morning, Claude, we need to tell you we’re breaking the lease.
EU: David, this is unfortunate. We put in that private entrance that you asked for, you have your own pool, and we gave you a rebate on your rent. We thought you’d be happy.
UK: Yes, well, we were thinking that we’d like to stay here if we don’t have to pay rent.
EU: …qu’est-ce que t’as dit? What?
UK: Well, we were thinking that there are people who live here
EU: ..who pay rent…
UK: …and there are people who don’t pay rent…
EU: …who don’t live here…
UK: …so, we were thinking that we could both live here AND not pay rent. Is there a problem?
EU: David, you can ask for anything you want, but you have to give formal notice first. Otherwise everyone will be asking us for everything and it will be pandemonium. But I can tell you now the answer’s no. Is there anyone else there we can talk to?
UK: Er. Well, my sister-in-law is peeling my wife’s fingers off the balcony railing, and my brothers are fighting over something in the cutlery drawer. Oh yes, my daughter definitely wants to stay here.
(SCOTLAND: Ye fookin lied to me, dah! He’s a fookin wanker, my dah is!)
EU: David, you’re looking quite unwell. Mon dieu, is that a knife sticking out of your chest?
UK: Yes, well, we’ll look into that notice thingy around Christmas after we get a bit sorted then. Cheers!
[Brexit, pursued by a bear]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:55 PM on July 2, 2016 [50 favorites]
UK: Good morning, Claude, we need to tell you we’re breaking the lease.
EU: David, this is unfortunate. We put in that private entrance that you asked for, you have your own pool, and we gave you a rebate on your rent. We thought you’d be happy.
UK: Yes, well, we were thinking that we’d like to stay here if we don’t have to pay rent.
EU: …qu’est-ce que t’as dit? What?
UK: Well, we were thinking that there are people who live here
EU: ..who pay rent…
UK: …and there are people who don’t pay rent…
EU: …who don’t live here…
UK: …so, we were thinking that we could both live here AND not pay rent. Is there a problem?
EU: David, you can ask for anything you want, but you have to give formal notice first. Otherwise everyone will be asking us for everything and it will be pandemonium. But I can tell you now the answer’s no. Is there anyone else there we can talk to?
UK: Er. Well, my sister-in-law is peeling my wife’s fingers off the balcony railing, and my brothers are fighting over something in the cutlery drawer. Oh yes, my daughter definitely wants to stay here.
(SCOTLAND: Ye fookin lied to me, dah! He’s a fookin wanker, my dah is!)
EU: David, you’re looking quite unwell. Mon dieu, is that a knife sticking out of your chest?
UK: Yes, well, we’ll look into that notice thingy around Christmas after we get a bit sorted then. Cheers!
[Brexit, pursued by a bear]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:55 PM on July 2, 2016 [50 favorites]
So I know that the Ministry of Magic tends to stay out of muggle business but is there any chance Hermoine (who I assume is the Minister of Magic in 2016 because duh) could call Cameron (or Gove or May or Bojo) and tell them to put aside the Brexit vote because exiting the EU would increase tension with the magical communities on the continent especially at a time when the US is threatening to be overrun with a dark lord that seems as dangerous (if not as competent) as Voldemort.
posted by vuron at 7:17 PM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by vuron at 7:17 PM on July 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
With Gove's bid struggling, it looks like it'll be a contest between Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
posted by billiebee at 3:42 AM on July 3, 2016
posted by billiebee at 3:42 AM on July 3, 2016
Because it's been economically beneficial to allow it within the EU. Given that it generates more money to be spent on government services, it's hard to find a justification other than racism/xenophobia for stopping it.So if it hadn't been economically beneficial would that be justification for opposing free-movement of people?
posted by fullerine at 3:48 AM on July 3, 2016
Denmark is in the EU but the Faroes and Greenland aren't. All that needs to happen is England and Wales withdraw form the EU, while the UK as a whole stays in.
England and Wales could become crown dependencies, like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, leaving the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland (and Gibraltar) in the EU.
posted by klausness at 4:23 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
England and Wales could become crown dependencies, like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, leaving the United Kingdom of Scotland and Northern Ireland (and Gibraltar) in the EU.
posted by klausness at 4:23 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
UK: Oh and Claude...
EU: Yes, David?
UK: When my brother Boris said that you are literally Hitler, he was obviously wrong.
EU: Obviously.
UK: Yes. Only Hitler is "literally" Hitler. Obviously. But you are very much like Hitler. Here. I have proof. See that picture of you here? My brother Boris gave it to me. Doesn't that look like Hitler?
EU: That's because it has a Hitler mustache painted on my face!
UK: Oh that is just to underline the resemblance. And here's another one of your half-sister Angela. She looks even more like Hitler. Everyone in my family said so. Boris loves it. After showing it to me, he couldn't stop goose-stepping around our house.
EU: That explains the strange noises we've been hearing all night.
UK: Anyway, you need to stop being like Hitler, or we're forced to leave and move to a different neighborhood.
EU: On reflection, maybe that isn't such a bad idea after all. We should talk about that first thing this afternoon. Do you need any help with calling the movers?
UK: You're doing it again! You can't tell us what to do! Stop being like Hitler, Claude!
EU: ...
posted by sour cream at 4:42 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
EU: Yes, David?
UK: When my brother Boris said that you are literally Hitler, he was obviously wrong.
EU: Obviously.
UK: Yes. Only Hitler is "literally" Hitler. Obviously. But you are very much like Hitler. Here. I have proof. See that picture of you here? My brother Boris gave it to me. Doesn't that look like Hitler?
EU: That's because it has a Hitler mustache painted on my face!
UK: Oh that is just to underline the resemblance. And here's another one of your half-sister Angela. She looks even more like Hitler. Everyone in my family said so. Boris loves it. After showing it to me, he couldn't stop goose-stepping around our house.
EU: That explains the strange noises we've been hearing all night.
UK: Anyway, you need to stop being like Hitler, or we're forced to leave and move to a different neighborhood.
EU: On reflection, maybe that isn't such a bad idea after all. We should talk about that first thing this afternoon. Do you need any help with calling the movers?
UK: You're doing it again! You can't tell us what to do! Stop being like Hitler, Claude!
EU: ...
posted by sour cream at 4:42 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Queen was up in Holyrood yesterday. I didn't check whether she'd brought more than an overnight bag...
posted by Devonian at 5:03 AM on July 3, 2016
posted by Devonian at 5:03 AM on July 3, 2016
I'm assuming the reason this thread has so drastically slowed down in the last 48 hours is that the entire UK has been drinking quite heavily all weekend...
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:13 AM on July 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:13 AM on July 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Nothing much has been happening, really, apart from the big anti-Brexit demo yesterday (which might have been a good idea a couple of weeks ago). Otherwise it's a cross party attempt to ignore the fact that, as far as I can tell, no one seems to have a clue what they're doing, but they're doing an indifferent job of imitating people who can pretend they do.
If the current era is the end of Zabriskie Point (and why not?), then we're into the bit that's loads of random objects flying through the air in slow motion. The next real news will be when they start falling to earth. The most depressing thing about that analogy is that it means I've missed the desert orgy.
Perhaps Careful With That Axe, Eugene should the national anthem.
posted by Grangousier at 5:29 AM on July 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
If the current era is the end of Zabriskie Point (and why not?), then we're into the bit that's loads of random objects flying through the air in slow motion. The next real news will be when they start falling to earth. The most depressing thing about that analogy is that it means I've missed the desert orgy.
Perhaps Careful With That Axe, Eugene should the national anthem.
posted by Grangousier at 5:29 AM on July 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
So if it hadn't been economically beneficial would that be justification for opposing free-movement of people?
posted by fullerine An hour ago [+] [!]
For me, no. I think it's an important civil liberty and freedom, and that being able to choose between EU governments with different systems but shared base rights is an almost uniquely amazing thing in the world. But it would at least be an argument that could be based around the ability to do other things with the money rather than disliking people who aren't originally from one's neck of the woods, or who are but have the temerity to have the skin colour to look like they have ancestors that weren't.
posted by jaduncan at 5:32 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fullerine An hour ago [+] [!]
For me, no. I think it's an important civil liberty and freedom, and that being able to choose between EU governments with different systems but shared base rights is an almost uniquely amazing thing in the world. But it would at least be an argument that could be based around the ability to do other things with the money rather than disliking people who aren't originally from one's neck of the woods, or who are but have the temerity to have the skin colour to look like they have ancestors that weren't.
posted by jaduncan at 5:32 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
To put in in economic terms, I think the price for me would have to be pretty high before I sold that liberty, or was prepared to deny it to others. I also think that diversity is a benefit rather than a cost.
posted by jaduncan at 5:34 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 5:34 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nothing much is happening, and what there is, is bad.
Next week, the Chilcot Report on the Iraq War comes out, and that may exorcise some of Labour's spectres and could be the catalyst for that party to stop tearing itself apart at the very moment we need a strong non-Tory voice in England, That's all I've got left in Pandora's box right now.
posted by Devonian at 6:19 AM on July 3, 2016
Next week, the Chilcot Report on the Iraq War comes out, and that may exorcise some of Labour's spectres and could be the catalyst for that party to stop tearing itself apart at the very moment we need a strong non-Tory voice in England, That's all I've got left in Pandora's box right now.
posted by Devonian at 6:19 AM on July 3, 2016
that may exorcise some of Labour's spectres
Or, possibly, exercise.
posted by Grangousier at 6:29 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or, possibly, exercise.
posted by Grangousier at 6:29 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am not sure that Corbyn standing at the dispatch box and apologising for a Labour government having been war criminals is likely to do that, especially given that some of the people involved are still just about on the political scene.
posted by jaduncan at 6:42 AM on July 3, 2016
posted by jaduncan at 6:42 AM on July 3, 2016
I don't think he plans to apologise for anything. I suspect what he wants is to call for Tony Blair to go on trial for war crimes. That might actually be feeding his resolve.
Or am I allowing myself to be drawn into the growing web of conspiracy theories?
posted by Grangousier at 6:44 AM on July 3, 2016
Or am I allowing myself to be drawn into the growing web of conspiracy theories?
posted by Grangousier at 6:44 AM on July 3, 2016
From the London Review of Books: Where are we now? Responses to the Referendum.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:46 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:46 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there really any chance that Blair will be charged with war crimes? And furthermore wouldn't that be the responsibility of the Hague to prosecute?
posted by vuron at 7:04 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vuron at 7:04 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, it's published in GQ, but: Tony Blair Conspiracy Theorists Are The Worst
The Tony Blair conspiracy narrative has been whipped into a frenzy over the last few years, so I suspect anything less than unmasking him as a combination of Adolf Hitler and the Mekon is likely to be dismissed as a whitewash.
Or, to paraphrase a tweet I just read, it's odd the way that people who fervently tell you to disbelieve the Main Stream Media will believe almost anything else, no matter how insane.
posted by Grangousier at 7:10 AM on July 3, 2016
The Tony Blair conspiracy narrative has been whipped into a frenzy over the last few years, so I suspect anything less than unmasking him as a combination of Adolf Hitler and the Mekon is likely to be dismissed as a whitewash.
Or, to paraphrase a tweet I just read, it's odd the way that people who fervently tell you to disbelieve the Main Stream Media will believe almost anything else, no matter how insane.
posted by Grangousier at 7:10 AM on July 3, 2016
The ICC won't prosecute Blair, but I suspect that the Common's Motion of Impeachment will be over those hideous non-apologies he gave last week.
In other new, May says she'll negotiate before invoking Article 50. Umm, okay ...
posted by scruss at 7:13 AM on July 3, 2016
In other new, May says she'll negotiate before invoking Article 50. Umm, okay ...
posted by scruss at 7:13 AM on July 3, 2016
Is there really any doubt that if there was a Tory government in charge in 2003 that they wouldn't have been falling all over themselves to join Bush?
John Major always seemed like he had Jello for a spine and Cameron isn't much better.
It seems like there are two major factions at work in regards to Blair.
Conservatives that resent the success of Blair and want to damage Labour and place all the responsibility for the Iraq debacle in his hands (which is fair to a certain degree) even though in his position they would've made the exact same mistakes.
Labour who wants to purge the remaining Blairites from the leadership structure even though the neo-liberal center-left coalition is probably the only reasonable way that Labour can ever expect to form a ruling coalition. It seems like to some purists it's better to be in opposition and be ideologically pure than be in the majority and be ideologically tainted.
From my perspective across the pond it seems like being in charge even if it allows neo-liberals to pursue free market ideas is preferable to the race to the bottom tendencies of the conservatives.
posted by vuron at 7:28 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
John Major always seemed like he had Jello for a spine and Cameron isn't much better.
It seems like there are two major factions at work in regards to Blair.
Conservatives that resent the success of Blair and want to damage Labour and place all the responsibility for the Iraq debacle in his hands (which is fair to a certain degree) even though in his position they would've made the exact same mistakes.
Labour who wants to purge the remaining Blairites from the leadership structure even though the neo-liberal center-left coalition is probably the only reasonable way that Labour can ever expect to form a ruling coalition. It seems like to some purists it's better to be in opposition and be ideologically pure than be in the majority and be ideologically tainted.
From my perspective across the pond it seems like being in charge even if it allows neo-liberals to pursue free market ideas is preferable to the race to the bottom tendencies of the conservatives.
posted by vuron at 7:28 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Tony Blair conspiracy narrative has been whipped into a frenzy over the last few years, so I suspect anything less than unmasking him as a combination of Adolf Hitler and the Mekon is likely to be dismissed as a whitewash.
It's about whether he lied to parliament or not.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:47 AM on July 3, 2016
It's about whether he lied to parliament or not.
posted by Coda Tronca at 7:47 AM on July 3, 2016
Rupert Myers who wrote the article grangousier linked to above is self serving little conservative shit `` posh boy´´ who is Deputy Chair of Bermondsey and Old Southwark Conservative. He has a right to his opinions. We have a right to completely ignore him.
posted by adamvasco at 8:34 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 8:34 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, very probably. It's him, is it? Recognise the Twitter avatar, now. Huh. Just dropping it in as a viewpoint you don't see very often, though now you come to mention it there might be good reasons for that.
I do stand by the point that the vilification of Tony Blair has reached such levels that Chilcot might not be able to satisfy people's expectations. But we'll see.
posted by Grangousier at 8:55 AM on July 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do stand by the point that the vilification of Tony Blair has reached such levels that Chilcot might not be able to satisfy people's expectations. But we'll see.
posted by Grangousier at 8:55 AM on July 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
- Brexit Aftershocks: An Inside Look at the EU's Raging Power Struggle
- Here’s Why A Pro-EU Party Could Be Screwed At The Next General Election
- Huge spanner in works for negotiation
Is there really any doubt that if there was a Tory government in charge in 2003 that they wouldn't have been falling all over themselves to join Bush?
Hmm, I dunno vuron. Hey, let's check the ol' wiki machine:
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:42 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hmm, I dunno vuron. Hey, let's check the ol' wiki machine:
At 10 pm, the motion without the amendment was passed by 412 to 149 votes, authorising the invasion. The British military campaign against Iraq, Operation Telic, began one day later.HUH.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:42 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perhaps Careful With That Axe, Eugene should the national anthem.
Surely One of these Days (I'm Going to Chop You into Little Pieces) more accurately captures the zeitgeist?
posted by Meatbomb at 10:06 AM on July 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Surely One of these Days (I'm Going to Chop You into Little Pieces) more accurately captures the zeitgeist?
posted by Meatbomb at 10:06 AM on July 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yep, it's convenient for people to forget it now but Parliament approving the authorization of force definitely was a result of both Labour and Conservative MPs supporting the resolution.
I would be interested in seeing who the 149 No votes were but let's not pretend that Blair didn't have broad support for British intervention in Iraq. Yes the justification for that intervention was deeply flawed and quite likely completely fictional in nature but I'm not sure that it would've been possible to reveal the false Anglo-American intelligence narrative even if Blair wanted to. Blair definitely shares a lot of shared responsibility for the Iraq debacle but let's not pretend he manufactured the case for war by his lonesome. It was a joint effort by the US and UK governments in conjunction with a highly complicit intelligence community that seemed willing to conform to political pressures to shake off the gross intelligence failure of 9/11.
Congress and Parliament definitely failed their constituencies prior to Iraq and unfortunately it seems like the current strategy is to just blame the guy in charge rather than make the necessary reforms so that intelligence cannot be used for such blatantly political goals in the future.
posted by vuron at 10:09 AM on July 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would be interested in seeing who the 149 No votes were but let's not pretend that Blair didn't have broad support for British intervention in Iraq. Yes the justification for that intervention was deeply flawed and quite likely completely fictional in nature but I'm not sure that it would've been possible to reveal the false Anglo-American intelligence narrative even if Blair wanted to. Blair definitely shares a lot of shared responsibility for the Iraq debacle but let's not pretend he manufactured the case for war by his lonesome. It was a joint effort by the US and UK governments in conjunction with a highly complicit intelligence community that seemed willing to conform to political pressures to shake off the gross intelligence failure of 9/11.
Congress and Parliament definitely failed their constituencies prior to Iraq and unfortunately it seems like the current strategy is to just blame the guy in charge rather than make the necessary reforms so that intelligence cannot be used for such blatantly political goals in the future.
posted by vuron at 10:09 AM on July 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
" Congress and Parliament definitely failed their constituencies " and the 100k plus iraqis!
"shared responsibility" is a tad mild for >10^5 deaths, hmmm?
complicity in a crime - even if planned significantly by others - is still a crime. see all of common law in the west.
this is why we call people "leaders". they get the accolades when things go well, and are accountable when not.
laws don't appear to apply to leaders any more though.
posted by lalochezia at 10:55 AM on July 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
"shared responsibility" is a tad mild for >10^5 deaths, hmmm?
complicity in a crime - even if planned significantly by others - is still a crime. see all of common law in the west.
this is why we call people "leaders". they get the accolades when things go well, and are accountable when not.
laws don't appear to apply to leaders any more though.
posted by lalochezia at 10:55 AM on July 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would be interested in seeing who the 149 No votes were but let's not pretend that Blair didn't have broad support for British intervention in Iraq.
According to this page, it was 84 Labour dissenters, all of the 52 LibDems, and a couple of stragglers from other parties. 146 Conservatives voted in favour, with only two of them voting against.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:59 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
According to this page, it was 84 Labour dissenters, all of the 52 LibDems, and a couple of stragglers from other parties. 146 Conservatives voted in favour, with only two of them voting against.
posted by tobascodagama at 10:59 AM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hmm, I dunno vuron. Hey, let's check the ol' wiki machine:
At 10 pm, the motion without the amendment was passed by 412 to 149 votes, authorising the invasion. The British military campaign against Iraq, Operation Telic, began one day later.
The Parliament can claim the fig leaf of the '45 minute attack', a claim made by Blair's Government (i.e. potentially dropping him in it if Chilcot says he made it up) and the degree of Parliamentary culpability depends on when you take the claim to have been rubbished from earlier in March than the vote or in late May. (The vote was on March 18th.)
posted by biffa at 11:00 AM on July 3, 2016
At 10 pm, the motion without the amendment was passed by 412 to 149 votes, authorising the invasion. The British military campaign against Iraq, Operation Telic, began one day later.
The Parliament can claim the fig leaf of the '45 minute attack', a claim made by Blair's Government (i.e. potentially dropping him in it if Chilcot says he made it up) and the degree of Parliamentary culpability depends on when you take the claim to have been rubbished from earlier in March than the vote or in late May. (The vote was on March 18th.)
posted by biffa at 11:00 AM on July 3, 2016
The fudge is beginning.
German politicians propose offering young Britons dual citizenship.
A joint letter published in the Sunday Telegraph, signed by politicians of all parties and from across the leave and remain divide, as well as business, NGO and academic voices, calls on the government and politicians of all parties and on both sides of the referendum debate “to make a clear and unequivocal statement that EU migrants currently living in the UK are welcome here and that post-referendum changes would apply only to new migrants.
posted by adamvasco at 11:11 AM on July 3, 2016
German politicians propose offering young Britons dual citizenship.
A joint letter published in the Sunday Telegraph, signed by politicians of all parties and from across the leave and remain divide, as well as business, NGO and academic voices, calls on the government and politicians of all parties and on both sides of the referendum debate “to make a clear and unequivocal statement that EU migrants currently living in the UK are welcome here and that post-referendum changes would apply only to new migrants.
posted by adamvasco at 11:11 AM on July 3, 2016
"I'm at a garden party. Hope I'm not sitting next to Voldemort or Fromage. I might be sick"
Yes, Rupert Murdoch, Nigel Farage... and others including Evgeny Lebedev, Liam Fox.
Lily Allen on Twitter + entertaining comments
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:28 AM on July 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, Rupert Murdoch, Nigel Farage... and others including Evgeny Lebedev, Liam Fox.
Lily Allen on Twitter + entertaining comments
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:28 AM on July 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
unfortunately it seems like the current strategy is to just blame the guy in charge
Well it should be really, because 'the guy in charge' was kind of the guy in charge.
However: Chilcot report: International Criminal Court says it will not investigate Tony Blair – but might prosecute soldiers
That's more like it.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:38 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Well it should be really, because 'the guy in charge' was kind of the guy in charge.
However: Chilcot report: International Criminal Court says it will not investigate Tony Blair – but might prosecute soldiers
That's more like it.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:38 AM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
...despite a political assassination in broad daylight, Britain voted to exit the EU. (Umir Haque, from the link posted by MonkeyToes)
I think this is a point worth noting. After Jo Cox's murder (which was clearly politically motivated), I really think the referendum should have been posptoned at the least. And if that wasn't possible, the Brexit campaigners should have encouraged everyone to vote Remain in order to show that political assassination was simply unacceptable. Instead, they whinged about how Remain supporters were politicizing Cox's murder if anyone even dared to suggest that the toxic rhetoric being thrown about might have had something to do with it.
posted by klausness at 11:42 AM on July 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think this is a point worth noting. After Jo Cox's murder (which was clearly politically motivated), I really think the referendum should have been posptoned at the least. And if that wasn't possible, the Brexit campaigners should have encouraged everyone to vote Remain in order to show that political assassination was simply unacceptable. Instead, they whinged about how Remain supporters were politicizing Cox's murder if anyone even dared to suggest that the toxic rhetoric being thrown about might have had something to do with it.
posted by klausness at 11:42 AM on July 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
The spanner link above is really interesting - basically saying that there's no actual way to leave the EU and have any trade deals in place, or even in a state of negotiation. The only option - as in, it's not an option at all, it's the default and single path available - is to become a free trade area for the many years it takes to negotiate new trade deals, which only works if you have no industry and a purely a Macau or Hong Kong, so that can't happen either.
Would love a reasoned argument why that's incorrect.
In other words, activating Brexit is suicidal. To the point that the food runs out and the lights go off. (Of course, that can't happpen in an economy like the UKs. It's written in the rulebook. Anyone got a copy? Mislaid mine.)
Over to you, Tezza,
posted by Devonian at 11:56 AM on July 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
Would love a reasoned argument why that's incorrect.
In other words, activating Brexit is suicidal. To the point that the food runs out and the lights go off. (Of course, that can't happpen in an economy like the UKs. It's written in the rulebook. Anyone got a copy? Mislaid mine.)
Over to you, Tezza,
posted by Devonian at 11:56 AM on July 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
(Of course, that can't happpen in an economy like the UKs. It's written in the rulebook. Anyone got a copy? Mislaid mine.)
The rulebook? To paraphrase Denis Leary, two words, nuclear fucking weapons.
posted by Talez at 12:05 PM on July 3, 2016
The rulebook? To paraphrase Denis Leary, two words, nuclear fucking weapons.
posted by Talez at 12:05 PM on July 3, 2016
In which case, when it comes before parliament how can they do anything other than say "sorry, this is insane"?
It struck me this morning that when John Profumo was exposed as having sex with a woman who not only wasn't his wife but was also having sex with a Russian spy, he resigned not only as a cabinet minister but also an M.P. and spend the rest of his life doing charitable works. Odd to think, considering he gave his name to the archetypal scandal, that there's not a single member of the Government with any of the decency of John Profumo. I mean, given that they've deliberately fucked the entire country.
posted by Grangousier at 12:07 PM on July 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
It struck me this morning that when John Profumo was exposed as having sex with a woman who not only wasn't his wife but was also having sex with a Russian spy, he resigned not only as a cabinet minister but also an M.P. and spend the rest of his life doing charitable works. Odd to think, considering he gave his name to the archetypal scandal, that there's not a single member of the Government with any of the decency of John Profumo. I mean, given that they've deliberately fucked the entire country.
posted by Grangousier at 12:07 PM on July 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
International Criminal Court says it will not investigate Tony Blair – but might prosecute soldiers
They cannot investigate Tony Blair, because it's a fundamental principle in all civilized countries that you cannot be charged under laws that don't exist. Does that mean that UK soldiers should be free to behave any way they want in a war zone, including violating laws that do exist?
posted by effbot at 12:14 PM on July 3, 2016
They cannot investigate Tony Blair, because it's a fundamental principle in all civilized countries that you cannot be charged under laws that don't exist. Does that mean that UK soldiers should be free to behave any way they want in a war zone, including violating laws that do exist?
posted by effbot at 12:14 PM on July 3, 2016
Yes, unless there is credible evidence that Blair personally authorized military actions in direct violations to international treaties that the UK are signatory to it seems unlikely that a retrospective prosecution would be likely or even possible.
On the other hand soldiers that violated international treaties should definitely be subject to prosecution. Nuremberg trials clearly established that the defense of just following orders was not an acceptable excuse for committing war crimes.
Yes that probably means that lower level functionaries are going to be subject to prosecution while the "masterminds" go free but that is partially to be expected and honestly should be a reason why there are increased calls for more extensive treaties regarding war crimes so that world leaders should be justifiably afraid to engage in offensive warfare for all but the most clear cut reasons.
posted by vuron at 12:24 PM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
On the other hand soldiers that violated international treaties should definitely be subject to prosecution. Nuremberg trials clearly established that the defense of just following orders was not an acceptable excuse for committing war crimes.
Yes that probably means that lower level functionaries are going to be subject to prosecution while the "masterminds" go free but that is partially to be expected and honestly should be a reason why there are increased calls for more extensive treaties regarding war crimes so that world leaders should be justifiably afraid to engage in offensive warfare for all but the most clear cut reasons.
posted by vuron at 12:24 PM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are MPs ready to try to impeach the lying bastard.
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:01 PM on July 3, 2016
posted by Coda Tronca at 1:01 PM on July 3, 2016
Law firm Mishcon de Reya has announced a legal challenge on Article 50.
The firm's press release on the case is here. They are bringing the case on behalf of an undisclosed group of clients. Mishcon de Reya has retained Barron David Pannick and Tom Hickman as counsel. Pannick has already written about the need for an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50. Hickman has also written on the same topic.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:04 PM on July 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
The firm's press release on the case is here. They are bringing the case on behalf of an undisclosed group of clients. Mishcon de Reya has retained Barron David Pannick and Tom Hickman as counsel. Pannick has already written about the need for an Act of Parliament to trigger Article 50. Hickman has also written on the same topic.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:04 PM on July 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
A 'Second-Class' European in a Post-Brexit World
The West, we sensed, was a better place: polished, rich, and free. My friends even had a slang word for cool: If something was top-notch awesome, it was “British.” [...] Britain has the culture my compatriots and I, in the absence of our own regional idols and contemporary cultural giants, look up to. English is the second language we now most comfortably speak. As a result, for those who wanted to try their luck abroad, many Czechs, Slovaks, Poles, and other neighbors felt the United Kingdom or Ireland made most sense as destinations. [...]
And so it is difficult for me not to take personally the U.K.’s rejection of staying open to Europe. Polls show that the decision was largely driven by backlash against immigration, and that some of the districts with the highest support for Brexit were those that had high concentrations of Poles, Romanians, and other Eastern and Central Europeans. Laminated cards reading, “No more Polish vermin” and “Go home Polish scum” were found in Cambridgeshire after the vote, and the U.K.’s Daily Mirror just ran the alarmist headline, “Brexit to cause immigration surge as 500,000 East Europeans 'will rush in before borders close.'”
It now appears that second-class Europeans—Europeans who grew up with smuggled vinyls and dreams of owning real jeans, while hiding from informers and censors, or whose parents did—are not so welcome in the Europe we thought we’d come to share. It does not need to be printed out in capital letters to be obvious.posted by effbot at 2:18 PM on July 3, 2016 [15 favorites]
Tomorrow's Telegraph front page headline: 'Boris demands post-Brexit plan', with the subtitle of 'In his first Telegraph column since quitting the Tory leadership race, Johnson blames Government for creating "Diana-style hysteria"'. Also seems to contain some sideswipe at Michael Gove being a 'security risk'.
Welcome to another week in UK politics, everybody!
posted by Catseye at 2:30 PM on July 3, 2016
Welcome to another week in UK politics, everybody!
posted by Catseye at 2:30 PM on July 3, 2016
I just finished reading that. It's a typically lazy, glib Johnson column. There's another piece from his buddy Ben Wallace, calling Gove a gossipy, backstabbing drunk. Such lovely people, those Tories.
posted by skybluepink at 2:38 PM on July 3, 2016
posted by skybluepink at 2:38 PM on July 3, 2016
Please join my shoegazer band, The Glib Johnson Column.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:33 PM on July 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:33 PM on July 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
Fintan O’Toole: Brexit and the politics of the fake orgasm
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:20 PM on July 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:20 PM on July 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
From effbot's link:
It's been a long time since the UK had full-on war strife. (I hasten to add that I do not discount The Troubles that were—and continue to somewhat be—experienced in Ireland; I'm referring to large-scale wars and dominion by a large foreign power, like Eastern Europe.) Because of this, the problems of "those people" from Eastern Europe are not seen as worthy of British interest. Western Europe, sure, because the UK bombed large swaths of that area and even its newer citizens grew up knowing that it had. But the Eastern side? That's Russia's area and it is distantly removed from Britain.
The Eastern Europe and Baltic countries know that if the EU falters, they will almost assuredly become client states of Russia...the smaller, less influential ones will be given the Crimea treatment in short order. Finland and Estonia will just have creeping, subtle political changes that tilt their governments towards Putin's liking.
And if Western Europe (including my Germany) has learned anything at all from history, it will continue to push to prevent that.
posted by fireoyster at 4:52 PM on July 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
An inward-looking, destabilized European Union is not good for anyone except for Russia, which has never stopped seeing our region as an area to claim, and whose military and agents have been pushing closer. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, and even Poland, are all worried about their long-term security. Given that for a country like mine, the last two and a half decades were the longest period of freedom in modern history, we don’t take not being invaded for granted. It is truly disheartening that it was we, and other immigrants, who U.K. voters seem to perceive as the threat to stability.This strikes me as the heart of the matter. David Weber, author of the Honor Harrington series of books that I greatly enjoy, even if I occasionally disagree with some of his politics in them, wrote a bit in his second book, The Honor of the Queen that stuck with me: "[M]ost of the [people] were from more developed nations. Extremists tend to grow more extreme, not less, as problems get closer to solutions..."
It's been a long time since the UK had full-on war strife. (I hasten to add that I do not discount The Troubles that were—and continue to somewhat be—experienced in Ireland; I'm referring to large-scale wars and dominion by a large foreign power, like Eastern Europe.) Because of this, the problems of "those people" from Eastern Europe are not seen as worthy of British interest. Western Europe, sure, because the UK bombed large swaths of that area and even its newer citizens grew up knowing that it had. But the Eastern side? That's Russia's area and it is distantly removed from Britain.
The Eastern Europe and Baltic countries know that if the EU falters, they will almost assuredly become client states of Russia...the smaller, less influential ones will be given the Crimea treatment in short order. Finland and Estonia will just have creeping, subtle political changes that tilt their governments towards Putin's liking.
And if Western Europe (including my Germany) has learned anything at all from history, it will continue to push to prevent that.
posted by fireoyster at 4:52 PM on July 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Eastern Europe and Baltic countries know that if the EU falters, they will almost assuredly become client states of Russia...the smaller, less influential ones will be given the Crimea treatment in short order. Finland and Estonia will just have creeping, subtle political changes that tilt their governments towards Putin's liking.
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner, folks! The Baltics voting very enthusiastically to join the EU (91% in favor of Lithuania!) knew it was definitely the only way to stop Russia from invading under the pretext of protecting Russian speaking citizens. They took one look at South Ossetia and knew they would be next if they weren't in the EU and NATO. Lo and behold, Ukraine next was up on the chopping block.
posted by Talez at 8:06 PM on July 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
Ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner, folks! The Baltics voting very enthusiastically to join the EU (91% in favor of Lithuania!) knew it was definitely the only way to stop Russia from invading under the pretext of protecting Russian speaking citizens. They took one look at South Ossetia and knew they would be next if they weren't in the EU and NATO. Lo and behold, Ukraine next was up on the chopping block.
posted by Talez at 8:06 PM on July 3, 2016 [9 favorites]
The same is emphatically not true for continental Europeans, who tend to learn English early and keep up via conversation and watching US/UK media.
The same is mostly true for non continental Europeans though, to be fair.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:24 PM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The same is mostly true for non continental Europeans though, to be fair.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:24 PM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Baltic Republics know that without a strong NATO and/or EU presence they would get crushed by Russia in under a day. Considering there is some doubts about the actual willingness of NATO to defend the Baltics I can definitely see why the Baltic Republics would be extremely enthusiastic about increased EU military might. They really don't want to become the next set of Russian satellite states like Belarus and increasingly the Ukraine.
Putin has shown no qualms about re-establishing the old Russian Empire by force or guile so having a strong Germany and France as being willing to hold a firm line against Russia is much more reassuring than depending on the US.
Long term I wouldn't be shocked if the continued sabre rattling by Putin encourages the EU to finally accept Turkish membership. While there are concerns about how religious Turkey is it seems like having a strong state to the south of Russia will limit their territorial ambitions in the Caucuses.
Considering the Azeri oil fields would be extremely valuable to Putin I can see a desire to discourage him from looking too far south.
posted by vuron at 10:27 PM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Putin has shown no qualms about re-establishing the old Russian Empire by force or guile so having a strong Germany and France as being willing to hold a firm line against Russia is much more reassuring than depending on the US.
Long term I wouldn't be shocked if the continued sabre rattling by Putin encourages the EU to finally accept Turkish membership. While there are concerns about how religious Turkey is it seems like having a strong state to the south of Russia will limit their territorial ambitions in the Caucuses.
Considering the Azeri oil fields would be extremely valuable to Putin I can see a desire to discourage him from looking too far south.
posted by vuron at 10:27 PM on July 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
After Jo Cox's murder (which was clearly politically motivated), I really think the referendum should have been posptoned at the least. And if that wasn't possible, the Brexit campaigners should have encouraged everyone to vote Remain in order to show that political assassination was simply unacceptable.
Uhhh, I don’t think the full implications of either of those scenarios are being taken into account there... Maybe Remain would have won but the price would be that you’d all be thanking a murderer for it! And that’s not a price you pay just once...
Instead of making it clear that political assassination is unacceptable, it would have practically made it into a very effective way to directly alter the course of major political decisions of a nation, of the political process itself. NOT a good thing, regardless of what the vote was about.
Now I do think it was politically irresponsible and dangerous to call a referendum on such a major decision in the first place, but a referendum is still a legitimate act, not a crime, and it’s far more politically irresponsible and dangerous to give a murderer the power to stop a legitimate act in its course.
Think of the terror attacks in Madrid in 2004 just before elections. Imagine if Spain had called off the vote.
posted by bitteschoen at 11:56 PM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Uhhh, I don’t think the full implications of either of those scenarios are being taken into account there... Maybe Remain would have won but the price would be that you’d all be thanking a murderer for it! And that’s not a price you pay just once...
Instead of making it clear that political assassination is unacceptable, it would have practically made it into a very effective way to directly alter the course of major political decisions of a nation, of the political process itself. NOT a good thing, regardless of what the vote was about.
Now I do think it was politically irresponsible and dangerous to call a referendum on such a major decision in the first place, but a referendum is still a legitimate act, not a crime, and it’s far more politically irresponsible and dangerous to give a murderer the power to stop a legitimate act in its course.
Think of the terror attacks in Madrid in 2004 just before elections. Imagine if Spain had called off the vote.
posted by bitteschoen at 11:56 PM on July 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
The spanner link above is really interesting - basically saying that there's no actual way to leave the EU and have any trade deals in place, or even in a state of negotiation. The only option - as in, it's not an option at all, it's the default and single path available - is to become a free trade area for the many years it takes to negotiate new trade deals, which only works if you have no industry and a purely a Macau or Hong Kong, so that can't happen either.
Oh yes, definitely recommended reading.
Basically, the original/current Brexit "plan" to play for time in order to get a headstart in the trade negotiations with the EU in the two years after triggering Art. 50 won't work, because the EU isn't allowed to negotiate trade agreements with its own members. So that means exit first and then trade under ordinary WTO rules like any other country until an agreement has been hammered out.
But wait, there's more!
WTO rules are not the automatic default. Turns out that the UK cannot simply retain its current status in the WTO, because all agreement were made between WTO and the EU, not WTO and UK. So those agreements need to be renegotiated first. Which may leave the UK in economic limbo for years.
Now the surprising thing is that nobody in the Brexit camp saw this coming. You would think that the first thing they did is retain a law firm that knows its way around EU law to hammer out a roadmap. Which would then have told them "you know there's this Article in the Treaty on the EU that prevents you from negotiating trade before the Brexit? You should come up with a plan for that first."
Oh, right. I forgot. We're sick and tired of listening to experts, aren't we?
Of course, there is also the even more horrifying possibility that they did see it coming but cynically chose to ignore it, because the master plan was to lose in order to stay on the sidelines and keep bitching about the EU and Cameron.
Shooting yourself in the foot does not seem to be the appropriate metaphor here. It's more like Johnson and Cameron put a gun into the UK's mouth and dared the population to pull the trigger. Which they did, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev style.
I suppose there may be ways to work around this. Maybe the "no trade talks before exit" rule can be somehow ignored. But this will require the cooperation of the EU. So right from the start, the UK will be in an extremely poor negotiating position, because they will need to ask them to pretty please bend the rules.
The alternative scenario is to ignore the referendum and play for time. But what does that mean for the economy? No company in its right mind will make any major investments there if it is uncertain whether they can export their goods produced there from the island. And who knows whether there won't be some lunatic PM in the future who will simply give notice under Art. 50, and calling that legitimized by the referendum? Meanwhile, France is looking into loosening financial regulations in order to lure banks to Paris and Germany has cleverly proposed double citizenship for Brits - it's a war for talent and economic uncertainty always leads to a brain drain.
Perhaps the best case scenario for Britain is to stay in the EU, but stripped of all concessions and special treatment and having to eat humble pie for the next 20 years. Maybe not the worst outcome for the rest of the EU.
posted by sour cream at 12:47 AM on July 4, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh yes, definitely recommended reading.
Basically, the original/current Brexit "plan" to play for time in order to get a headstart in the trade negotiations with the EU in the two years after triggering Art. 50 won't work, because the EU isn't allowed to negotiate trade agreements with its own members. So that means exit first and then trade under ordinary WTO rules like any other country until an agreement has been hammered out.
But wait, there's more!
WTO rules are not the automatic default. Turns out that the UK cannot simply retain its current status in the WTO, because all agreement were made between WTO and the EU, not WTO and UK. So those agreements need to be renegotiated first. Which may leave the UK in economic limbo for years.
Now the surprising thing is that nobody in the Brexit camp saw this coming. You would think that the first thing they did is retain a law firm that knows its way around EU law to hammer out a roadmap. Which would then have told them "you know there's this Article in the Treaty on the EU that prevents you from negotiating trade before the Brexit? You should come up with a plan for that first."
Oh, right. I forgot. We're sick and tired of listening to experts, aren't we?
Of course, there is also the even more horrifying possibility that they did see it coming but cynically chose to ignore it, because the master plan was to lose in order to stay on the sidelines and keep bitching about the EU and Cameron.
Shooting yourself in the foot does not seem to be the appropriate metaphor here. It's more like Johnson and Cameron put a gun into the UK's mouth and dared the population to pull the trigger. Which they did, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev style.
I suppose there may be ways to work around this. Maybe the "no trade talks before exit" rule can be somehow ignored. But this will require the cooperation of the EU. So right from the start, the UK will be in an extremely poor negotiating position, because they will need to ask them to pretty please bend the rules.
The alternative scenario is to ignore the referendum and play for time. But what does that mean for the economy? No company in its right mind will make any major investments there if it is uncertain whether they can export their goods produced there from the island. And who knows whether there won't be some lunatic PM in the future who will simply give notice under Art. 50, and calling that legitimized by the referendum? Meanwhile, France is looking into loosening financial regulations in order to lure banks to Paris and Germany has cleverly proposed double citizenship for Brits - it's a war for talent and economic uncertainty always leads to a brain drain.
Perhaps the best case scenario for Britain is to stay in the EU, but stripped of all concessions and special treatment and having to eat humble pie for the next 20 years. Maybe not the worst outcome for the rest of the EU.
posted by sour cream at 12:47 AM on July 4, 2016 [12 favorites]
Let's be clear:
The moment Article 50 is invoked, the UK has no negotiating position left. The EU could (but wouldn't) simply stonewall for two years and the UK would leave the EU on the worst possible terms. This would be so unequivocally bad for the UK that no sane UK politician wants to go there.
While Article 50 is not invoked, the UK has both options and a negotiating position. Great damage has already been caused, but it is far from a worst case as yet.
The UK cannot be forced to invoke Article 50.
David Cameron having abdicated the choice, the next PM will lack a mandate to do so. It will require an act of Pariament.
Therefore, Article 50 will not be invoked.
All else is noise and fury, signifying nothing, but serving to allow time for people to move the goalposts.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 1:22 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
The moment Article 50 is invoked, the UK has no negotiating position left. The EU could (but wouldn't) simply stonewall for two years and the UK would leave the EU on the worst possible terms. This would be so unequivocally bad for the UK that no sane UK politician wants to go there.
While Article 50 is not invoked, the UK has both options and a negotiating position. Great damage has already been caused, but it is far from a worst case as yet.
The UK cannot be forced to invoke Article 50.
David Cameron having abdicated the choice, the next PM will lack a mandate to do so. It will require an act of Pariament.
Therefore, Article 50 will not be invoked.
All else is noise and fury, signifying nothing, but serving to allow time for people to move the goalposts.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 1:22 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
winterhill: What we need now, of course, is a PM who has the balls to say "we have taken the advice from the public in the advisory referendum, considered it, and come to the conclusion that it would be a cock up of gargantuan proportions so we will not be leaving the EU and not triggering Article 50." That would end this whole economic crisis.
That would be a step in the right direction.
Except, the next PM then might say: "What the previous PM said was bollocks and undemocratic. We have a clear mandate from the people. Here's our notification under Article 50."
Autumn Leaf: This would be so unequivocally bad for the UK that no sane UK politician wants to go there.
On the other hand, if the whole disaster has shown one thing, it is that there is no shortage of insane politicians in the UK.
posted by sour cream at 1:30 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
That would be a step in the right direction.
Except, the next PM then might say: "What the previous PM said was bollocks and undemocratic. We have a clear mandate from the people. Here's our notification under Article 50."
Autumn Leaf: This would be so unequivocally bad for the UK that no sane UK politician wants to go there.
On the other hand, if the whole disaster has shown one thing, it is that there is no shortage of insane politicians in the UK.
posted by sour cream at 1:30 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
An election will do it.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 1:52 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by Autumn Leaf at 1:52 AM on July 4, 2016
An election will do it.
What if the leavers win again?
posted by sour cream at 1:56 AM on July 4, 2016
What if the leavers win again?
posted by sour cream at 1:56 AM on July 4, 2016
No matter how the voting goes, an election will allow the results of the Brexit referendum to be disregarded without blatantly ignoring the will of the people, and starts a new cycle. If the vote still favours Leave, that's too bad, but it's a new bad. If the vote favours Remain, it's the vital first step back from the brink.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 2:18 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by Autumn Leaf at 2:18 AM on July 4, 2016
At this stage, it feels like we're at an interval between acts. Will article 50 get approved? Is there route to which it even could be approved? If the UK Government backed off from Brexit then would the EU ever trust them again? What about the the Scots and Northern Irish? Can anybody draw up a coherent plan?
But meanwhile, bizarrely: the summer break has arrived. So get some ice creams and let's catch up in September!
posted by rongorongo at 2:20 AM on July 4, 2016
But meanwhile, bizarrely: the summer break has arrived. So get some ice creams and let's catch up in September!
posted by rongorongo at 2:20 AM on July 4, 2016
In today's bizarro world update, Nigel Farage has resigned as leader of UKIP.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:21 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by MattWPBS at 2:21 AM on July 4, 2016
Nigel Farage just announced his resignation from his post as UKIP leader.
posted by cendawanita at 2:21 AM on July 4, 2016
posted by cendawanita at 2:21 AM on July 4, 2016
OK, I just read Pounded by the Pound, since it's the first book out about Brexit. It wasn't bad. I mean, it wasn't great, but there were some clever, funny parts.
posted by ryanrs at 2:23 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanrs at 2:23 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sweet jesus, now here's a terrifying thought:
Q: What role do you want Ukip to play in the withdrawal negotiation?
Farage says he wants this to a cross-party effort. And he says Ukip has expertise that it can offer.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016
Q: What role do you want Ukip to play in the withdrawal negotiation?
Farage says he wants this to a cross-party effort. And he says Ukip has expertise that it can offer.
posted by MattWPBS at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016
if the hypothetical PM who says "we're not triggering Article 50" puts it to a vote in Parliament and wins, meaning that the act of Parliament that would trigger Article 50 is voted down, does that then put it to bed forever? Or would the new lunatic PM who wants to trigger Art.50 after all be able to just introduce new legislation?
Lunatic PM would need to get that new legislation past Parliament, which would be tough without significant changes to it (and/or significant changes to the makeup of Parliament, which I suppose would not be out of the question if Lunatic PM comes in after a general election campaigning on invoking Article 50 straight away? But you'd still have to get it past the Lords...)
Alternative is that Lunatic PM says "I don't care what Parliament says, Parliament is ineffective and useless and I am invoking Article 50 anyway," which I think is a bit too Mussolini for anyone even in the current political climate (let's hope?), but also raises the very likely possibility that the EU would not accept the legitimacy of the Article 50 notification on the grounds that it was done unconstitutionally.
posted by Catseye at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lunatic PM would need to get that new legislation past Parliament, which would be tough without significant changes to it (and/or significant changes to the makeup of Parliament, which I suppose would not be out of the question if Lunatic PM comes in after a general election campaigning on invoking Article 50 straight away? But you'd still have to get it past the Lords...)
Alternative is that Lunatic PM says "I don't care what Parliament says, Parliament is ineffective and useless and I am invoking Article 50 anyway," which I think is a bit too Mussolini for anyone even in the current political climate (let's hope?), but also raises the very likely possibility that the EU would not accept the legitimacy of the Article 50 notification on the grounds that it was done unconstitutionally.
posted by Catseye at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
would the new lunatic PM who wants to trigger Art.50 after all be able to just introduce new legislation?
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me the answer has to be yes, assuming that the PM can get the support of Parliament. Article 50 is always going to be open to any EU member that wants to exit the Union - any member state can withdraw "in accordance with its own constitutional requirements". One hopes that the electorate would severely punish any PM who tried to do so without popular support, but given (on preview) that we're well into bizarro world, who knows?
posted by Pink Frost at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me the answer has to be yes, assuming that the PM can get the support of Parliament. Article 50 is always going to be open to any EU member that wants to exit the Union - any member state can withdraw "in accordance with its own constitutional requirements". One hopes that the electorate would severely punish any PM who tried to do so without popular support, but given (on preview) that we're well into bizarro world, who knows?
posted by Pink Frost at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
oof, beaten by seconds. But anyway, with this news and all that, you'd think the Brexit campaign lost, or something...
posted by cendawanita at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 2:24 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
My immediate thought is that Andrea Leadsmen (that's what autocorrect has insisted on and I can't be arsed to wrestle with it) has been In Talks, as long as he switches to the Tory party.
Leadsom (oh it let me type it this time) strikes me as a Daily Mail subscriber on Stars In Their Eyes - "Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be Margaret Thatcher" - and as long as she remains in the ascendant it can't end well.
Terrifying that the entire political class across the board seems to have no relationship to reality at all.
posted by Grangousier at 2:26 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Leadsom (oh it let me type it this time) strikes me as a Daily Mail subscriber on Stars In Their Eyes - "Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to be Margaret Thatcher" - and as long as she remains in the ascendant it can't end well.
Terrifying that the entire political class across the board seems to have no relationship to reality at all.
posted by Grangousier at 2:26 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
wow, bad timing
thanks Farage for fucking up my gay erotica derail, you fucker
posted by ryanrs at 2:26 AM on July 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
thanks Farage for fucking up my gay erotica derail, you fucker
posted by ryanrs at 2:26 AM on July 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
He came into this because he wants his country back. He has got it back.
What a nob.
posted by like_neon at 2:38 AM on July 4, 2016
What a nob.
posted by like_neon at 2:38 AM on July 4, 2016
I think 'Angela Loathsome' is sticking...
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:44 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:44 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
oof, beaten by seconds. But anyway, with this news and all that, you'd think the Brexit campaign lost, or something...
On the contrary. Read the statement.
Mr. Farage has achieved his political ambition.
So with mission accomplished, what point is there in staying?
Now's the time to step aside. Also, stepping aside means he's free to bicker from the sidelines again. What a despicable fucker.
posted by sour cream at 2:49 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the contrary. Read the statement.
Mr. Farage has achieved his political ambition.
So with mission accomplished, what point is there in staying?
Now's the time to step aside. Also, stepping aside means he's free to bicker from the sidelines again. What a despicable fucker.
posted by sour cream at 2:49 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Heh. Angela Lansbury for PM!
Actually, no.
Angela Lansbury for heading up the inevitable public enquiry into this mess in five years' time! ("£350m for the NHS? That's odd...") And if we can't get her, then John Chilcot will be free after Wednesday, right...?
posted by Catseye at 2:49 AM on July 4, 2016
Actually, no.
Angela Lansbury for heading up the inevitable public enquiry into this mess in five years' time! ("£350m for the NHS? That's odd...") And if we can't get her, then John Chilcot will be free after Wednesday, right...?
posted by Catseye at 2:49 AM on July 4, 2016
Well, Chilcot has proven he can delay things almost indefinitely...
posted by skybluepink at 3:06 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by skybluepink at 3:06 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yep, this is a genuine concern for me. If UKIP pick someone with the right charisma then it's game over for Labour around here (Bradford), as I imagine it will be elsewhere too.
Sigh. I remember well the hustings for Bradford West when there was Naz Shah, George Galloway, an upper class former army officer plus a guy who's primary concern was the promotion of biocultures. The UKIP candidate was the one everyone laughed at. And fair enough, this was at the university, but it was also true in the few at local community centres I went to as well.
And whilst he specifically was a laughable figure for whom the chair deferred the questions more than once while he got his shit together (he was two questions behind everyone else at one point), in a General Election people vote for parties and official policies rather than individual candidates.
posted by vbfg at 3:37 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sigh. I remember well the hustings for Bradford West when there was Naz Shah, George Galloway, an upper class former army officer plus a guy who's primary concern was the promotion of biocultures. The UKIP candidate was the one everyone laughed at. And fair enough, this was at the university, but it was also true in the few at local community centres I went to as well.
And whilst he specifically was a laughable figure for whom the chair deferred the questions more than once while he got his shit together (he was two questions behind everyone else at one point), in a General Election people vote for parties and official policies rather than individual candidates.
posted by vbfg at 3:37 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Brave Sir Nigel ran away! When reality reared its ugly head, Sir Nigel turned his tail and fled, brave brave brave Sir NIgel.
posted by Devonian at 3:45 AM on July 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 3:45 AM on July 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
Going and speaking with your neighbours and colleagues is the best thing I can suggest. Always listen, don't lecture. Take each concern and talk through it. Identify areas where UKIP's position isn't the best solution and what alternatives exist. You're likely to have successes and failures but don't quit. The hardcore anti-immigrants aren't likely to be swayed with logic but it's the only hope we've got to counter UKIP gains whilst Labour is attempting to consume itself from the inside. I'm holding out for a "coalition of the sane" SNP-Labour-LibDem-Green coming together in a rainbow to stand against stupidity and racism but I'll do whatever I can to influence the results (within the law obvs).
posted by longbaugh at 3:49 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 3:49 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also - whilst we're at it - I'm going to post an IRL North(ish) of England meetup. We can trade strategy/commiserations and otherwise get together and put names to faces and all that jazz.
posted by longbaugh at 3:53 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 3:53 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Very sad to hear about Nigel Farage. Nothing's happened to him, I'm just sad to hear about him." - Moose Allain.
posted by rongorongo at 4:07 AM on July 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 4:07 AM on July 4, 2016 [25 favorites]
Northern Wangland Meetup (sorry mods, I appreciate the thread is yuuuuge at this point)
posted by longbaugh at 4:14 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 4:14 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seconding this!
Anyway, I just want to pause for a second to say thank you to everyone here. This is a momentous time in politics in this country and I can't think of a better bunch of intelligent, thoughtful people to discuss it with than you lot on MeFi. Imagine being stuck talking about this with the mob on the Guardian comments blog, or Reddit, or Digital Spy or wherever else people talk politics in this country. So thank you for making this period even more interesting than it would otherwise be, with your great comments and thoughts. :)
I am party to some super sekrit and not so secret FB groups where there is occasionally some intelligent discourse, but this place is what is keeping me sane at the moment!
Also, sub-threading kills conversation, don't do it kids!
posted by asok at 6:19 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Anyway, I just want to pause for a second to say thank you to everyone here. This is a momentous time in politics in this country and I can't think of a better bunch of intelligent, thoughtful people to discuss it with than you lot on MeFi. Imagine being stuck talking about this with the mob on the Guardian comments blog, or Reddit, or Digital Spy or wherever else people talk politics in this country. So thank you for making this period even more interesting than it would otherwise be, with your great comments and thoughts. :)
I am party to some super sekrit and not so secret FB groups where there is occasionally some intelligent discourse, but this place is what is keeping me sane at the moment!
Also, sub-threading kills conversation, don't do it kids!
posted by asok at 6:19 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why have I never noticed that Nigel Farage's initials are NF before?
posted by vbfg at 6:36 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by vbfg at 6:36 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's so hard to tell when a description of Farage is genuine and when it is sarcasm . Marina Hyde in the Guardian says:
posted by Azara at 6:41 AM on July 4, 2016 [17 favorites]
Of Britain’s lack of qualified trade negotiators to handle Brexit, Nigel observed: “I’m told we haven’t got the skills. So let’s headhunt them. Let’s get them from Singapore, from Asia …”I'm speechless.
posted by Azara at 6:41 AM on July 4, 2016 [17 favorites]
Some potentially important info - if you're an EU national (actually, an EEA citizen) and been resident in the UK for five straight years or more, you probably automatically qualify for permanent residence status. I didn't realise this, and neither did my EU friend who's been so worried about how her family's future.
The official form is here, and this is what it says about qualifying.
Eligibility
You must normally have lived in the UK for a continuous period of five years as:
• an EEA national ‘qualified person’ (worker, self-employed, self-sufficient, student or
jobseeker),
• a family member or extended family member* of an EEA national qualified person or
permanent resident,
• a former family member of an EEA national if you’ve retained your right of residence after
the EEA national died or left the UK, or your/their marriage or civil partnership ended in
divorce, annulment or dissolution, or
• a family member of a British citizen who worked or was self-employed in another EEA state
before returning to the UK (‘Surinder Singh’ cases).
You can also qualify if you are:
• an EEA national former worker or self-employed person who has ceased activity in the UK
because you have retired, are permanently incapacitated, or you’re now working or selfemployed
in another EEA state but still retain your residence in the UK,
• the family member or extended family member* of an EEA national who has ceased
activity, or
• the family member or extended family member* of an EEA national former worker or selfemployed
person who has died.
Please pass this on to anyone you know to whom it may matter, and obviously it's a good idea to do it sooner rather than later. No guarantee that future political bastardry won't come along and muck things up, but having a permanent residence status is going to take quite a lot of that to dislodge.
posted by Devonian at 6:43 AM on July 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
The official form is here, and this is what it says about qualifying.
Eligibility
You must normally have lived in the UK for a continuous period of five years as:
• an EEA national ‘qualified person’ (worker, self-employed, self-sufficient, student or
jobseeker),
• a family member or extended family member* of an EEA national qualified person or
permanent resident,
• a former family member of an EEA national if you’ve retained your right of residence after
the EEA national died or left the UK, or your/their marriage or civil partnership ended in
divorce, annulment or dissolution, or
• a family member of a British citizen who worked or was self-employed in another EEA state
before returning to the UK (‘Surinder Singh’ cases).
You can also qualify if you are:
• an EEA national former worker or self-employed person who has ceased activity in the UK
because you have retired, are permanently incapacitated, or you’re now working or selfemployed
in another EEA state but still retain your residence in the UK,
• the family member or extended family member* of an EEA national who has ceased
activity, or
• the family member or extended family member* of an EEA national former worker or selfemployed
person who has died.
Please pass this on to anyone you know to whom it may matter, and obviously it's a good idea to do it sooner rather than later. No guarantee that future political bastardry won't come along and muck things up, but having a permanent residence status is going to take quite a lot of that to dislodge.
posted by Devonian at 6:43 AM on July 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
Charlotte Church: Voice of an angel, mouth of a sailor
posted by PenDevil at 6:50 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 6:50 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
American politicians have much to learn from the UK's culture of political resignation. Lose a critical vote? Resign, have fun with that. Win the same vote and ostensibly get what you want? What, I was supposed to have a plan for implementing it too?, Resign. The other party won/lost a vote you didn't take a clear position on? Better get to resigning or your own party will vote you out anyway.
Who's job is it to actually run the government? Not any of ours, that's for damn sure.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:55 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
Who's job is it to actually run the government? Not any of ours, that's for damn sure.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:55 AM on July 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
@ Devonian. There's also ILR on the basis of long residence. Which may help some more people.
Definitely wise to get some protection here.
posted by plep at 6:55 AM on July 4, 2016
Definitely wise to get some protection here.
posted by plep at 6:55 AM on July 4, 2016
With little more than £20 million between them, international migrants Samantha and David desperately seek refuge from the chaos of their homeland, in the safe haven of Scotland.
posted by rongorongo at 7:14 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 7:14 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Potential costs to employers of EU nationals in order to sponsor their EU employees if Britain were to leave.
Advice for EU nationals in the UK from Migrant Rights Network, and a briefing from Migration Yorkshire.
posted by asok at 7:15 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Advice for EU nationals in the UK from Migrant Rights Network, and a briefing from Migration Yorkshire.
posted by asok at 7:15 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Farage resigns about once every six months, doesn't he?
posted by Artw at 7:29 AM on July 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:29 AM on July 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
About as often as Gove says he doesn't want to lead the Tories.
posted by MattWPBS at 7:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 7:34 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Farage dubbed 'the unflushable turd' by some wag on FB.
posted by asok at 7:35 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by asok at 7:35 AM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Floater Farage.
posted by Grangousier at 7:37 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 7:37 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
After Jo Cox's murder (which was clearly politically motivated), I really think the referendum should have been posptoned at the least. [...]Instead of making it clear that political assassination is unacceptable, it would have practically made it into a very effective way to directly alter the course of major political decisions of a nation, of the political process itself. NOT a good thing, regardless of what the vote was about.
This is why I suggested postponing, not cancelling. After an investigation, it would hopefully be clear in what direction the murderer was trying to push the vote (since it could be some sort of false flag operation). The vote would then proceed once a replacement MP was chosen and it was clear that the side supported by the murderer had gained no advantage. If the other side had gained an advantage, then that would hopefully serve to make future such actions less likely. The important thing would be to make it clear that any attempts to influence an election by violence would, if anything, have the opposite of the intended effect.
Think of the terror attacks in Madrid in 2004 just before elections. Imagine if Spain had called off the vote.
I think that's different because it was a general election. Regular general elections are a cornerstone of democracy, and one of the first acts of a would-be dictator is usually to postpone (and then eventually cancel) elections. So postponing a general election would set a dangerous precedent. But for a referendum, I don't see that as a problem.
posted by klausness at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Chris Evans has now resigned as leader of Top Gear.
posted by MattWPBS at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
In ten minutes at 4:00, Jeremy Corbyn is going to appear on Parliament.tv* as a witness regarding The Rise of Antisemitism, if anyone has the time and the popcorn.
He's probably grateful Seumas has let him out of the cupboard.
*Link of only short-term usefulness.
posted by Grangousier at 7:52 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
He's probably grateful Seumas has let him out of the cupboard.
*Link of only short-term usefulness.
posted by Grangousier at 7:52 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Some potentially important info - if you're an EU national (actually, an EEA citizen) and been resident in the UK for five straight years or more, you probably automatically qualify for permanent residence status.
You cannot have spent any of that period in unemployment. IF you wish to claim jobseeker status you must have been actually registered as a jobseeker.
@ Devonian. There's also ILR on the basis of long residence. Which may help some more people.
And it costs £1800. A lot of money, however you slice it.
posted by vacapinta at 7:57 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
You cannot have spent any of that period in unemployment. IF you wish to claim jobseeker status you must have been actually registered as a jobseeker.
@ Devonian. There's also ILR on the basis of long residence. Which may help some more people.
And it costs £1800. A lot of money, however you slice it.
posted by vacapinta at 7:57 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
And it costs £1800. A lot of money, however you slice it.
As well as ancillary costs (e.g. the Life in the UK test). It seems a lot but compared to the 1000s you can easily spend on the spouse (or any kind of family) visa process, it's a bit of a bargain. :) (£5000 or so before lawyers and before the next set of rises).
Migration to the UK has become a lot more expensive over the last few years. This has tended to fall on non-EU/EEA people (such as spouses) in recent years, but no doubt this is going to fall on EU people now.
posted by plep at 8:03 AM on July 4, 2016
As well as ancillary costs (e.g. the Life in the UK test). It seems a lot but compared to the 1000s you can easily spend on the spouse (or any kind of family) visa process, it's a bit of a bargain. :) (£5000 or so before lawyers and before the next set of rises).
Migration to the UK has become a lot more expensive over the last few years. This has tended to fall on non-EU/EEA people (such as spouses) in recent years, but no doubt this is going to fall on EU people now.
posted by plep at 8:03 AM on July 4, 2016
Any thoughts on whether UKIP will do better with or without Nigel? Media coverage mostly focused on him, so I wonder if losing that spotlight might help. Supposing he stays resigned for more than a fortnight of course.
posted by ersatz at 8:37 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ersatz at 8:37 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
A (UK citizen) friend of mine emigrated to Ireland at Christmas, in exasperation at the expense and Brownian goalposts of trying to get his Russian wife residency in the UK, and he wanted to give their kids a chance of a stable family life during their education. Said friend is a freakishly polyglot son of a diplomat and a true world citizen in every possible way, and that people such as him cannot live in their homeland is just another bubble of disgrace in the fomenting cowdung of current UK migration policy.
posted by Devonian at 8:41 AM on July 4, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 8:41 AM on July 4, 2016 [20 favorites]
You cannot have spent any of that period in unemployment. IF you wish to claim jobseeker status you must have been actually registered as a jobseeker.
Which, as an EU national, you can only do for a short period of time.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which, as an EU national, you can only do for a short period of time.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 AM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just want to pause for a second to say thank you to everyone here. This is a momentous time in politics in this country and I can't think of a better bunch of intelligent, thoughtful people to discuss it with than you lot on MeFi.
Having read nearly this entire thread so far, but having nothing to offer to the conversation, I also want to repeat this sentiment and express my tremendous gratitude--especially to our UK MeFites--for a fascinating, educational, and enlightening thread. My heart is with you in this struggle, and I am grateful to learn so much from you.
It's fascinating to me that, as I learn so much more information and greater detail about political situations in other countries and regions of the world through informed, thoughtful online conversation (as a U.S. resident), I find that we're not the only country with way too many low (or no) information voters who vote with their emotions and seem impenetrable to reason and facts, yielding an utterly clueless political class. While that should make me really worried and upset that almost nobody running anything really knows what they're doing, and that we collectively are not understanding the actual problems we face, it has actually given me a peculiar kind of hope: if we can continue to talk to each other, even poorly, we will continue to realize how many of our problems are in common, and have similar (or shared) sources and causes. Even much of the less-than-exemplary discourse that happens in most places online is growth in this regard, because we're all talking directly with each other more than we ever have, or have been able to, and imperfect communication is still communication, and that holds so much more potential than our former world, where information mostly had to flow through a power structure of some kind.
If we can continue to talk to one another, otherization becomes impossible to sustain and we will gradually better understand that common solutions benefit us all, that a rising tide truly lifts all boats. So while in the short-term I'm kind of AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, this thread, others like it, and all of you make me mostly think we'll be alright. We are learning, however slowly.
Lastly, my only on-topic contribution: as an outsider, I simply do not see how exit is practically feasible or desirable. The extraordinary political turmoil following the successful Leave vote underscores this to me. No matter how it shakes out, exit will not happen because the reality is that it would be so very bad for everyone, and however long the span between now and then--full of various goalpost moving, political upheavals (more to come, no doubt), legal bickering and maneuvering, market reaction--it will end with Stay. Too many powerful influences are invested in that for any other outcome.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:08 AM on July 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
Having read nearly this entire thread so far, but having nothing to offer to the conversation, I also want to repeat this sentiment and express my tremendous gratitude--especially to our UK MeFites--for a fascinating, educational, and enlightening thread. My heart is with you in this struggle, and I am grateful to learn so much from you.
It's fascinating to me that, as I learn so much more information and greater detail about political situations in other countries and regions of the world through informed, thoughtful online conversation (as a U.S. resident), I find that we're not the only country with way too many low (or no) information voters who vote with their emotions and seem impenetrable to reason and facts, yielding an utterly clueless political class. While that should make me really worried and upset that almost nobody running anything really knows what they're doing, and that we collectively are not understanding the actual problems we face, it has actually given me a peculiar kind of hope: if we can continue to talk to each other, even poorly, we will continue to realize how many of our problems are in common, and have similar (or shared) sources and causes. Even much of the less-than-exemplary discourse that happens in most places online is growth in this regard, because we're all talking directly with each other more than we ever have, or have been able to, and imperfect communication is still communication, and that holds so much more potential than our former world, where information mostly had to flow through a power structure of some kind.
If we can continue to talk to one another, otherization becomes impossible to sustain and we will gradually better understand that common solutions benefit us all, that a rising tide truly lifts all boats. So while in the short-term I'm kind of AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, this thread, others like it, and all of you make me mostly think we'll be alright. We are learning, however slowly.
Lastly, my only on-topic contribution: as an outsider, I simply do not see how exit is practically feasible or desirable. The extraordinary political turmoil following the successful Leave vote underscores this to me. No matter how it shakes out, exit will not happen because the reality is that it would be so very bad for everyone, and however long the span between now and then--full of various goalpost moving, political upheavals (more to come, no doubt), legal bickering and maneuvering, market reaction--it will end with Stay. Too many powerful influences are invested in that for any other outcome.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:08 AM on July 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
So, my World Of Politics Predictions for the next few months:
- Farage blasts through every talkshow in this country, enjoys a brief celebrity stint in the US in which he gets a reputation for almost-but-not-quite praising whatever awful thing Trump's done recently, eventually crosses some sort of line and quietly shuffles back to the UK, with a blistering indignant yet hilarious rant by John Oliver ringing in his ears;
- Boris Johnson relaunches political career by telling the country he was lied to and tricked by his former friends in the Leave campaign, actually thinks we should have stayed in the EU to reform it from within in the first place because gosh this is all an awful mess now, isn't it, and wants to help lead the country back to glory. Or coherence. Or, well, something;
- Andrea Leadsom loses leadership bid, denounces Teresa May's failure to invoke Article 50 at any time in foreseeable future, forms pro-Brexit splitter party with a chunk of the Conservatives and the revamped UKIP; Nigel Farage, her 'close friend and advisor', parachuted in to a by-election for a seat in Northern Wangland;
- a clip of Nicola Sturgeon slowly shaking her head becomes the most retweeted thing in the history of Twitter;
- King Arthur reappears as prophesied in the time of England's greatest need, reads a newspaper to catch up on current events, says "bugger this, you're on your own" and marches off to the hills to go drinking with Owain Glyndwr.
posted by Catseye at 11:14 AM on July 4, 2016 [27 favorites]
- Farage blasts through every talkshow in this country, enjoys a brief celebrity stint in the US in which he gets a reputation for almost-but-not-quite praising whatever awful thing Trump's done recently, eventually crosses some sort of line and quietly shuffles back to the UK, with a blistering indignant yet hilarious rant by John Oliver ringing in his ears;
- Boris Johnson relaunches political career by telling the country he was lied to and tricked by his former friends in the Leave campaign, actually thinks we should have stayed in the EU to reform it from within in the first place because gosh this is all an awful mess now, isn't it, and wants to help lead the country back to glory. Or coherence. Or, well, something;
- Andrea Leadsom loses leadership bid, denounces Teresa May's failure to invoke Article 50 at any time in foreseeable future, forms pro-Brexit splitter party with a chunk of the Conservatives and the revamped UKIP; Nigel Farage, her 'close friend and advisor', parachuted in to a by-election for a seat in Northern Wangland;
- a clip of Nicola Sturgeon slowly shaking her head becomes the most retweeted thing in the history of Twitter;
- King Arthur reappears as prophesied in the time of England's greatest need, reads a newspaper to catch up on current events, says "bugger this, you're on your own" and marches off to the hills to go drinking with Owain Glyndwr.
posted by Catseye at 11:14 AM on July 4, 2016 [27 favorites]
Social Policy bod Paul Spicker is starting a petition to the EU, with the aim of British nationals being able to apply to retain their European citizenship.
Personally, I'm seriously thinking that moving from England to Scotland is being more likely to achieve that objective in the long term. I don't think I'm the only one.
posted by wilko at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
Personally, I'm seriously thinking that moving from England to Scotland is being more likely to achieve that objective in the long term. I don't think I'm the only one.
posted by wilko at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
“Brexit versus Grexit: Why you might call a referendum and then reject its outcome,” Lubos Pastor, CEPR's Vox EU, 04 July 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 1:39 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 1:39 PM on July 4, 2016
UKIP has massively won this, right?
Farage stays on as UKIP's hype man, his "not leader but friend" status will allow him to keep his dog-whistle blowing and attracting those who find that tune so delightful. He also seems to enjoy pissing people off, so I don't quite picture him retiring to a quiet life.
If the Brexit starts to be derailed in Parliament in favour of staying, they can scream that they're the only ones that would fight for the democracy and the will of the people hurting in our society. That they've only got on MP actually works in their favour for that.
If Article 50 gets signed, UKIP can then just lob missiles, disagreeing with outcome of absolutely every agreement, saying that it's a raw deal for the working class and only the wealthy will survive. I suspect Boris will do the same, muttering that if he had party support he would have gotten a deal that included unicorns and free candy with himself as PM.
So, by the time the next election rolls by, assuming UKIP finds a leader that can string a few paragraphs together and doesn't have such a magnificently punchable face— I'd be really quite worried.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:58 PM on July 4, 2016
Farage stays on as UKIP's hype man, his "not leader but friend" status will allow him to keep his dog-whistle blowing and attracting those who find that tune so delightful. He also seems to enjoy pissing people off, so I don't quite picture him retiring to a quiet life.
If the Brexit starts to be derailed in Parliament in favour of staying, they can scream that they're the only ones that would fight for the democracy and the will of the people hurting in our society. That they've only got on MP actually works in their favour for that.
If Article 50 gets signed, UKIP can then just lob missiles, disagreeing with outcome of absolutely every agreement, saying that it's a raw deal for the working class and only the wealthy will survive. I suspect Boris will do the same, muttering that if he had party support he would have gotten a deal that included unicorns and free candy with himself as PM.
So, by the time the next election rolls by, assuming UKIP finds a leader that can string a few paragraphs together and doesn't have such a magnificently punchable face— I'd be really quite worried.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:58 PM on July 4, 2016
ConservativeHome places Leadsom as the party faithful's favourite compared to lukewarm support amongst the parliamentary party
Could she clinch it as a kind of bizarro mirror Corbyn?
Boris endorses Leadsom
posted by brilliantmistake at 2:11 PM on July 4, 2016
Could she clinch it as a kind of bizarro mirror Corbyn?
Boris endorses Leadsom
posted by brilliantmistake at 2:11 PM on July 4, 2016
Andrea Leadsom In ‘Car Crash’ Performance At First Hustings
"Another Tory said when Leadsom started taking about frontal lobes of babies, “she lost the room.”"
posted by Grangousier at 2:15 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Another Tory said when Leadsom started taking about frontal lobes of babies, “she lost the room.”"
posted by Grangousier at 2:15 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
That, out of all the possible candidates for our next prime minister, Theresa May sounds like the least zealous and insane is possibly the most terrifying thing that has yet happened in my life time.
posted by dng at 2:18 PM on July 4, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by dng at 2:18 PM on July 4, 2016 [17 favorites]
Like a week and a half ago we got out of bed and there was burning shit everywhere and now we can't move for burning shit.
And it doesn't seem to get any less shitty. Or burny.
posted by Grangousier at 2:21 PM on July 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
And it doesn't seem to get any less shitty. Or burny.
posted by Grangousier at 2:21 PM on July 4, 2016 [7 favorites]
That, out of all the possible candidates for our next prime minister, Theresa May sounds like the least zealous and insane is possibly the most terrifying thing that has yet happened in my life time.
Which, considering everything that's happened in the last two weeks, is saying something.
I've started to read the comments at Guido Fawkes blog. To try and understand the mindset better, to get outside my bubble. I know they're as representative of anyone as any comments section is. It's not pleasant, there's a lot of glee about defeating the remainers, there's no recognition that they're in their own bubble. There's unchallenged racism, xenophobia and disableism. They are operating on the assumption that anyone who voted leave will only vote for candidates who support leave from now on. I don't know, I'm too far in my bubble to know, how much that is true. And they are very firmly behind Angela Leadsom. Theresa May is seen as a Trojan horse for remain.
posted by Helga-woo at 2:38 PM on July 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
Which, considering everything that's happened in the last two weeks, is saying something.
I've started to read the comments at Guido Fawkes blog. To try and understand the mindset better, to get outside my bubble. I know they're as representative of anyone as any comments section is. It's not pleasant, there's a lot of glee about defeating the remainers, there's no recognition that they're in their own bubble. There's unchallenged racism, xenophobia and disableism. They are operating on the assumption that anyone who voted leave will only vote for candidates who support leave from now on. I don't know, I'm too far in my bubble to know, how much that is true. And they are very firmly behind Angela Leadsom. Theresa May is seen as a Trojan horse for remain.
posted by Helga-woo at 2:38 PM on July 4, 2016 [10 favorites]
Well done Helga-woo! That is a brave bit of emotional work to do for us. I owe you a drink of your choice
posted by asok at 2:43 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by asok at 2:43 PM on July 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
Theresa May is seen as a Trojan horse for remain.
Elites desperately need someone to ease Remain back into the frame, she'll do.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:46 PM on July 4, 2016
Elites desperately need someone to ease Remain back into the frame, she'll do.
posted by Coda Tronca at 2:46 PM on July 4, 2016
Yes, yes, the shadowy elites, always plotting, always scheming (except for the actual vote, of course -- they should have schemed and plotted a bit better on that one).
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:26 PM on July 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:26 PM on July 4, 2016 [14 favorites]
How are we defining 'elite' these days, anyway? I think I lost track when privately-educated commodity broker Nigel Farage got rebranded as A Man Of The People.
posted by Catseye at 3:31 PM on July 4, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 3:31 PM on July 4, 2016 [22 favorites]
If you drink craft beer, you're one of the elite. If you own Wetherspoons, you're a common man.
posted by dng at 3:35 PM on July 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by dng at 3:35 PM on July 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
Isn't it the secretive Fabian Society, operating through the evil Portland Communications? That's what I understand from the Twitters.
Them shadowy elites. All up in your stuff.
(Yes, I know about the Fabian Society, it's all right.)
posted by Grangousier at 3:44 PM on July 4, 2016
Them shadowy elites. All up in your stuff.
(Yes, I know about the Fabian Society, it's all right.)
posted by Grangousier at 3:44 PM on July 4, 2016
There's ordinary people like me, and then there's everyone else.
posted by vbfg at 3:44 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vbfg at 3:44 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good work Helga-woo. I tried that for a bit, but it was too far outside the bubble.
Would anyone be interested in a crone island style slack for UK politics? There was one for the 2010 election which was fun. But a regular one might be good for when this thread closed and we go back to us politics on mefi
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:03 PM on July 4, 2016
Would anyone be interested in a crone island style slack for UK politics? There was one for the 2010 election which was fun. But a regular one might be good for when this thread closed and we go back to us politics on mefi
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 5:03 PM on July 4, 2016
Theresa May seems to be trying for the 'adult' vote. Basically the idea that yeah the UK might want to leave but sometimes you have to do the unpopular thing and defy the wishes of the electorate.
Block exit, take your lumps in the elections which hopefully you can block until tempers settle down.
If you get forced into the opposition then push all sorts of odious positions as compromise.
Retire to a well paid lobbying position
posted by vuron at 5:46 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Block exit, take your lumps in the elections which hopefully you can block until tempers settle down.
If you get forced into the opposition then push all sorts of odious positions as compromise.
Retire to a well paid lobbying position
posted by vuron at 5:46 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Retire to a well paid lobbying position
posted by vuron at 7:46 PM on July 4
Funny how frequently that opinion takes hold of pols in both the US and UK. They sure do deeply care about the interests of us struggling voters, don't they? Pathetic slobs, the lot of them on both sides of the pond.
(I'm not trying to make this thread about the US, but the similarity in behavior is undeniable. Now back to full on Brexit.)
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 6:59 PM on July 4, 2016
posted by vuron at 7:46 PM on July 4
Funny how frequently that opinion takes hold of pols in both the US and UK. They sure do deeply care about the interests of us struggling voters, don't they? Pathetic slobs, the lot of them on both sides of the pond.
(I'm not trying to make this thread about the US, but the similarity in behavior is undeniable. Now back to full on Brexit.)
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 6:59 PM on July 4, 2016
American Cartoonist does "Doctor Who vs. The Brexit" (which, if that's supposed to be Farage next to Bojo, is already outdated)
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:50 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:50 PM on July 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Even the Doctor's intellect will be severely taxed against the machinations of the dastardly BOGONs*!"
(BOris Johnson, Michael GOve, and Nigel Farage, natch.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 10:05 PM on July 4, 2016
(BOris Johnson, Michael GOve, and Nigel Farage, natch.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 10:05 PM on July 4, 2016
Guardian long read: How remain failed: the inside story of a doomed campaign.
posted by ltl at 12:12 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ltl at 12:12 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
UKIP has massively won this, right?I remain not entirely convinced.
The one thing about the triumphant racist braying which followed the vote is that it removed the plausible deniability of a non-racist UKIP vote. There's a good reason for dog-whistling after all. Whether that impacts on the election is down to whether there's an alternative.
If the Tories move someway to the centre and Labour becomes a genuine anti-austerity party there are non-racist options for a vote for the boomers and the policed.
Unfortunately, you can see that "if" from Juno.
posted by fullerine at 1:01 AM on July 5, 2016
Guardian long read: How remain failed: the inside story of a doomed campaign.
Trigger warning: likely to induce depression, sadness, anger, rage.
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:01 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Trigger warning: likely to induce depression, sadness, anger, rage.
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:01 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, I tried to read it, but too many words. Too much sad.
posted by Grangousier at 2:10 AM on July 5, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 2:10 AM on July 5, 2016
Curious to see Farage say he is disgusted by May's take on those EU citizens currently here.
Apropos of nothing, here is a letter from Farage's school expressing concern over his singing of fascist songs around the time of the high water mark of the National Front. (Let me once again reiterate how strange it is that I've only just realised what his initials are).
It contains the fantastic quote, "a fascist, but that was no reason why he would not make a good prefect".
posted by vbfg at 2:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Apropos of nothing, here is a letter from Farage's school expressing concern over his singing of fascist songs around the time of the high water mark of the National Front. (Let me once again reiterate how strange it is that I've only just realised what his initials are).
It contains the fantastic quote, "a fascist, but that was no reason why he would not make a good prefect".
posted by vbfg at 2:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Curious to see Farage say he is disgusted by May's take on those EU citizens currently here.
Well, his wife is German. As much of an idiot as he is, it's unlikely he'd be campaigning for his wife to be deported.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:27 AM on July 5, 2016
Well, his wife is German. As much of an idiot as he is, it's unlikely he'd be campaigning for his wife to be deported.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:27 AM on July 5, 2016
"How far will one man go to get a no-fault divorce? Join us after the break, as we meet Nigel."
posted by MattWPBS at 4:04 AM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 4:04 AM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
First round of Tory leadership voting apparently:
Latest on MPs from @SkyNews in Tory leadership contest
MAY:122
CRABB:25
GOVE:27
FOX:8
LEADSOM:40
posted by MattWPBS at 4:22 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Latest on MPs from @SkyNews in Tory leadership contest
MAY:122
CRABB:25
GOVE:27
FOX:8
LEADSOM:40
posted by MattWPBS at 4:22 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Michael Dougan the European Law expert has been at the Treasury Committee today. Bullet point highlights via Patrick Wintour.
EFTA countries can be taken to EFTA court by EFTA surveillance authority. Judgements are binding in international law.
EU through a withdrawal agreement cannot give UK anything that is incompatible with EU law
main worry is it is a job that cannot be done by parliament alone, requires enormous delegation of power to executive
The day of the constitutional lawyer has come
French legal service has told French govt is that it would be possible for UK to trigger Art 50, and then revoke.
To secure an EEA agreement, UK must avoid a veto by Swiss, 3 EFTA countries, 27 EU countries and European Parliament. 32 vetoes.
national elections in France and Germany mean no sense in triggering Art 50 until late 2017
claim that Section 112 of EEA would allow UK to exempt itself from free movt. is "an armchair lawyer argument".
posted by MattWPBS at 4:30 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by MattWPBS at 4:30 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Link to Treasury Committee if you want to watch people telling MPs how bad it actually it is.
Subject: The UK’s future economic relationship with the European Union
Witnesses: Professor Michael Dougan, Professor of European Law, University of Liverpool, Dr Robin Niblett CMG, Director, Chatham House, Sir Emyr Jones Parry, former UK Permanent Representative to the United Nations, and Raoul Ruparel, Co-Director, Open Europe.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:35 AM on July 5, 2016
Subject: The UK’s future economic relationship with the European Union
Witnesses: Professor Michael Dougan, Professor of European Law, University of Liverpool, Dr Robin Niblett CMG, Director, Chatham House, Sir Emyr Jones Parry, former UK Permanent Representative to the United Nations, and Raoul Ruparel, Co-Director, Open Europe.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:35 AM on July 5, 2016
Link to Treasury Committee
"The proceeding has ended"
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:02 AM on July 5, 2016
"The proceeding has ended"
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:02 AM on July 5, 2016
If you click at the beginning of the bar at the bottom you can play it from the start.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:07 AM on July 5, 2016
posted by MattWPBS at 5:07 AM on July 5, 2016
A-ha! Thanks!
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:11 AM on July 5, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:11 AM on July 5, 2016
The day of the constitutional lawyer has come
But people have had enough of experts! We should send Simon Cowell, Alan Sugar and Adele. They won't take no BS from no lawyers.
posted by Devonian at 5:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
But people have had enough of experts! We should send Simon Cowell, Alan Sugar and Adele. They won't take no BS from no lawyers.
posted by Devonian at 5:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Guardian long read: How remain failed: the inside story of a doomed campaign.
Reading this, I was thinking about how truth was so hidden from voters during the campaign. This should have been the secret weapon of the remain side: a huge pile or reports - from people who actually knew what they were talking about - who had looked into the economic, regulatory and cultural aspects of Brexit and concluded that it was strongly not in the UK's interest. Yet, despite their own protestations, the remain campaign seems to have been more similar to "Better Together" from the 2014 Scottish Referendum - a bunch of political enemies forced to try to work as a team while hampered by the arrogant assumption they were on the winning side. Better Together were on the winning side, of course, but their "project fear" campaign saw support for independence leap by about 20 percentage points.
The truth didn't fare well at the hands of the media either - but most outlets seemed to be either too partisan to trust (see most of the tabloids) or too bound by the requirement of equal coverage to be able to separate light from heat (see the BBC notably).
One lesson apparently ignored, was that of "The Wee Blue Book". This was written by blogger Stuart Campbell, who wanted to produce something that summarized arguments for independence in a partisan but concise manner than included citations: something that could be thrust into the hand of undecided relatives or colleagues of Yes supporters. In the end about 300,000 copies of the WBB were printed and over half a million downloaded; it described as the "secret weapon" of the Yes side - and the approach was copied this year by the Scottish MEP Alyn Smith (he of the speech linked to above) in the form of "The Wee Bleu Book". Both of these documents were political tracts that would fall into the same pile of mostly dubious pre-election flyers - ironically a realm where there appears to be no regulatory expectation of any truth at all - but they stood out by their quality of research.
posted by rongorongo at 5:16 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Reading this, I was thinking about how truth was so hidden from voters during the campaign. This should have been the secret weapon of the remain side: a huge pile or reports - from people who actually knew what they were talking about - who had looked into the economic, regulatory and cultural aspects of Brexit and concluded that it was strongly not in the UK's interest. Yet, despite their own protestations, the remain campaign seems to have been more similar to "Better Together" from the 2014 Scottish Referendum - a bunch of political enemies forced to try to work as a team while hampered by the arrogant assumption they were on the winning side. Better Together were on the winning side, of course, but their "project fear" campaign saw support for independence leap by about 20 percentage points.
The truth didn't fare well at the hands of the media either - but most outlets seemed to be either too partisan to trust (see most of the tabloids) or too bound by the requirement of equal coverage to be able to separate light from heat (see the BBC notably).
One lesson apparently ignored, was that of "The Wee Blue Book". This was written by blogger Stuart Campbell, who wanted to produce something that summarized arguments for independence in a partisan but concise manner than included citations: something that could be thrust into the hand of undecided relatives or colleagues of Yes supporters. In the end about 300,000 copies of the WBB were printed and over half a million downloaded; it described as the "secret weapon" of the Yes side - and the approach was copied this year by the Scottish MEP Alyn Smith (he of the speech linked to above) in the form of "The Wee Bleu Book". Both of these documents were political tracts that would fall into the same pile of mostly dubious pre-election flyers - ironically a realm where there appears to be no regulatory expectation of any truth at all - but they stood out by their quality of research.
posted by rongorongo at 5:16 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
John Gray: The strange death of liberal politics:
The vote for Brexit demonstrates that the rules of politics have changed irreversibly. The stabilisation that seemed to have been achieved following the financial crisis was a sham. The lopsided type of capitalism that exists today is inherently unstable and cannot be democratically legitimated. The error of progressive thinkers in all the main parties was to imagine that the discontent of large sections of the population could be appeased by offering them what was at bottom a continuation of the status quo...posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:34 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Free movement of labour between countries with vastly different wage levels, working conditions and welfare benefits is a systemic threat to the job opportunities and living standards of Labour’s core supporters. Labour cannot admit this, because that would mean the EU is structured to make social democracy impossible. This used to be understood, not only on Labour’s Bennite left but also by Keynesian centrists such as Peter Shore and, more recently, Austin Mitchell. Today the fact goes almost unnoticed, except by those who have to suffer the consequences.
Love this... Frankie Boyle"s The Tory leadership election is a sort of X Factor for choosing the antichrist
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Speaking of Alyn Smith, he has a great piece in The National today on Farage, UKIP and their pals shifting the political centre ground further to the right:
It is far, far easier to pander to prejudice rather than face it down and inform it out of existence.posted by Catseye at 5:36 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe it would have helped to have a 'wee EU book', but the whole thing was such a shoddy rush job there was little time for intelligent discourse. Billboards might have helped, lamp post mounted posters might have helped, badges, t-shirts or any other visible method of promoting the message might have helped.
Can low information voters be reached with facts? Upthread the argument is suggested that popularism can only be countered by more popularism. Are people like Vince from Hull reachable?
Here is some 'interesting' analysis regarding the Leave campaign having a possible connection with NLP practitioner Paul McKenna.
posted by asok at 5:37 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can low information voters be reached with facts? Upthread the argument is suggested that popularism can only be countered by more popularism. Are people like Vince from Hull reachable?
Here is some 'interesting' analysis regarding the Leave campaign having a possible connection with NLP practitioner Paul McKenna.
posted by asok at 5:37 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Free movement of labour between countries with vastly different wage levels, working conditions and welfare benefits is a systemic threat to the job opportunities and living standards of Labour’s core supporters. Labour cannot admit this, because that would mean the EU is structured to make social democracy impossible. This used to be understood, not only on Labour’s Bennite left but also by Keynesian centrists such as Peter Shore and, more recently, Austin Mitchell. Today the fact goes almost unnoticed, except by those who have to suffer the consequences.
Okay, here is something I don't get. People keep saying that falling living standards are the fault of migration - either they say this from a left standpoint (we need revolution) or a right standpoint (we need border controls). But in the last big Brexit thread, someone pointed to a very helpful link showing that actually there was very, very little effect - even for low wage unskilled workers - on wages and employment due to migration. This is the closest thing I can find. The difference with the other link was that it showed that the small negative effect on unskilled workers was dwarfed by the negative effects of other government policies and other global trade issues - the effect of migration on unskilled workers was about a 1% wage loss in some sectors over eight years.
This new link suggests that actually the people worst hurt by new migration are other migrants, because they are the ones most likely to be working in the unskilled bottom-of-the-barrel sectors.
This new link is also interesting on unemployment - read the whole thing, the summary at the top is misleading. It suggests that migration "may" lead to less employment of UK citizens during downturns but that it.....actually really doesn't, much?
It makes one wonder if, in fact, the very very minor negative effects of migration could be entirely erased by more labor standards enforcement and a better minimum wage.
From the outside, it just seems like migration is being used as a proxy by people who are not working class and do not give a good goddamn about the working class. And I would include, frankly, certain leftists from elite backgrounds in that statement - people whose work I admire in general but who are from very wealthy backgrounds and who have virtually guaranteed lifetime employment in academia, publishing, etc, have said some really dodgy things in the interest of revolution if you ask me. Revolution is no skin off their noses!
Obviously massive inequality is unstable, obviously the situation is bad right now. But if that analysis about wages is correct, the instability of the EU has very, very little to do with migration.
posted by Frowner at 6:29 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
Okay, here is something I don't get. People keep saying that falling living standards are the fault of migration - either they say this from a left standpoint (we need revolution) or a right standpoint (we need border controls). But in the last big Brexit thread, someone pointed to a very helpful link showing that actually there was very, very little effect - even for low wage unskilled workers - on wages and employment due to migration. This is the closest thing I can find. The difference with the other link was that it showed that the small negative effect on unskilled workers was dwarfed by the negative effects of other government policies and other global trade issues - the effect of migration on unskilled workers was about a 1% wage loss in some sectors over eight years.
This new link suggests that actually the people worst hurt by new migration are other migrants, because they are the ones most likely to be working in the unskilled bottom-of-the-barrel sectors.
This new link is also interesting on unemployment - read the whole thing, the summary at the top is misleading. It suggests that migration "may" lead to less employment of UK citizens during downturns but that it.....actually really doesn't, much?
It makes one wonder if, in fact, the very very minor negative effects of migration could be entirely erased by more labor standards enforcement and a better minimum wage.
From the outside, it just seems like migration is being used as a proxy by people who are not working class and do not give a good goddamn about the working class. And I would include, frankly, certain leftists from elite backgrounds in that statement - people whose work I admire in general but who are from very wealthy backgrounds and who have virtually guaranteed lifetime employment in academia, publishing, etc, have said some really dodgy things in the interest of revolution if you ask me. Revolution is no skin off their noses!
Obviously massive inequality is unstable, obviously the situation is bad right now. But if that analysis about wages is correct, the instability of the EU has very, very little to do with migration.
posted by Frowner at 6:29 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
> "Free movement of labour between countries with vastly different wage levels, working conditions and welfare benefits is a systemic threat to the job opportunities and living standards of Labour’s core supporters."
This statement bears little if any relation to the real world. It's like saying living standards in Massachusetts are under threat because of the existence of Maine.
posted by kyrademon at 6:37 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
This statement bears little if any relation to the real world. It's like saying living standards in Massachusetts are under threat because of the existence of Maine.
posted by kyrademon at 6:37 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
Malcolm Rifkind and Ken Clarke caught having a few unguarded comments about the Tory leadership race when they thought the cameras weren't rolling.
Personal favourite on Andrea Leadsome:
Mr Clarke: "She is not one of the tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market.
"So long as she understands that she's not to deliver on some of the extremely stupid things she's been saying."
posted by MattWPBS at 6:41 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Personal favourite on Andrea Leadsome:
Mr Clarke: "She is not one of the tiny band of lunatics who think we can have a sort of glorious economic future outside the single market.
"So long as she understands that she's not to deliver on some of the extremely stupid things she's been saying."
posted by MattWPBS at 6:41 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
That quote from John Gray is full of such completely unsupported bullshit but the killer is this,
"Free movement of labour between countries with vastly different wage levels, working conditions and welfare benefits is a systemic threat to the job opportunities and living standards of Labour’s core supporters."
Is not only a false and easily discounted statement but it actually suggests that the workers in the UK would benefit from eliminating freedom of movement across the EU, which is completely delusional.
The reality is that no nation-state or super-national federation of nation states can create a situation where full employment is achievable (even if it is theoretically desirable). The reality is that economic realities transcend artificial natural borders and having firm border control between nation states is a relatively new geopolitical development and one that doesn't actually serve the interests of workers anywhere.
It is in the interest of workers everywhere to be able to migrate to locations where economic growth in the form of new jobs is happening. That means that if there are new jobs at a factory in Northern England there should be people applying for those jobs from outside of the UK and if there are new factories opening in Berlin or Milan people from the UK should be applicants.
Yes there are disruptions because labor isn't as mobile as capital and many (if not most) people tend to prefer looking for local opportunities due to the opportunity costs associated with relocating across half of a continent. However people in the US particularly those in very demanding careers often relocate for the sake of their careers to the opposite side of the US and that is intensely disruptive to informal support structures. In the short term these migrations can be disruptive but often tend to be necessary to a degree (the rapid urbanization of the 19th and 20th century was a form of internal migration as excess labor in the rural areas was transformed into industrial labor in the cities) but eventually an equilibrium is reached that tends to benefit both the local economy and the immigrant. Unfortunately so much of the discourse is built around the idea of referring to immigrant populations as subhuman and villifying them.
This is complicated by the EU being composed of various nation states that aren't always cooperating with each other (the UK in particular seems to view the EU as a zero-sum game rather than a system where growth for everyone can be accomplished) and the various tribal divisions related to religion, language, ethnicity, sports, etc that have generally been packaged in some sort of 19th century concept of nationalism.
So the reality is that embracing the EU doesn't really hurt Labour or it's constituents it hurts the idea of a British nationality as eventually the success or failure of the EU will largely depend on replacing provincial and national interests with a pan-European identity.
posted by vuron at 6:44 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Free movement of labour between countries with vastly different wage levels, working conditions and welfare benefits is a systemic threat to the job opportunities and living standards of Labour’s core supporters."
Is not only a false and easily discounted statement but it actually suggests that the workers in the UK would benefit from eliminating freedom of movement across the EU, which is completely delusional.
The reality is that no nation-state or super-national federation of nation states can create a situation where full employment is achievable (even if it is theoretically desirable). The reality is that economic realities transcend artificial natural borders and having firm border control between nation states is a relatively new geopolitical development and one that doesn't actually serve the interests of workers anywhere.
It is in the interest of workers everywhere to be able to migrate to locations where economic growth in the form of new jobs is happening. That means that if there are new jobs at a factory in Northern England there should be people applying for those jobs from outside of the UK and if there are new factories opening in Berlin or Milan people from the UK should be applicants.
Yes there are disruptions because labor isn't as mobile as capital and many (if not most) people tend to prefer looking for local opportunities due to the opportunity costs associated with relocating across half of a continent. However people in the US particularly those in very demanding careers often relocate for the sake of their careers to the opposite side of the US and that is intensely disruptive to informal support structures. In the short term these migrations can be disruptive but often tend to be necessary to a degree (the rapid urbanization of the 19th and 20th century was a form of internal migration as excess labor in the rural areas was transformed into industrial labor in the cities) but eventually an equilibrium is reached that tends to benefit both the local economy and the immigrant. Unfortunately so much of the discourse is built around the idea of referring to immigrant populations as subhuman and villifying them.
This is complicated by the EU being composed of various nation states that aren't always cooperating with each other (the UK in particular seems to view the EU as a zero-sum game rather than a system where growth for everyone can be accomplished) and the various tribal divisions related to religion, language, ethnicity, sports, etc that have generally been packaged in some sort of 19th century concept of nationalism.
So the reality is that embracing the EU doesn't really hurt Labour or it's constituents it hurts the idea of a British nationality as eventually the success or failure of the EU will largely depend on replacing provincial and national interests with a pan-European identity.
posted by vuron at 6:44 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
>> "Free movement of labour between countries with vastly different wage levels, working conditions and welfare benefits is a systemic threat to the job opportunities and living standards of Labour’s core supporters."
> This statement bears little if any relation to the real world. It's like saying living standards in Massachusetts are under threat because of the existence of Maine.
Yeah, but if we had free movement across the Mason-Dixon line, Massachusetts would have been swamped by the flood of refugees from Louisiana after the Katrina disaster, right? {/}
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
> This statement bears little if any relation to the real world. It's like saying living standards in Massachusetts are under threat because of the existence of Maine.
Yeah, but if we had free movement across the Mason-Dixon line, Massachusetts would have been swamped by the flood of refugees from Louisiana after the Katrina disaster, right? {/}
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
> Malcolm Rifkind and Ken Clarke caught
Yuck. Sky is truly in the gutter. I fully understand how brilliant this is to watch, and whomever caught it must be crying with glee, but these are clearly off the record comments and it's awful that someone thought they should be broadcast.
posted by Quagkapi at 7:09 AM on July 5, 2016
Yuck. Sky is truly in the gutter. I fully understand how brilliant this is to watch, and whomever caught it must be crying with glee, but these are clearly off the record comments and it's awful that someone thought they should be broadcast.
posted by Quagkapi at 7:09 AM on July 5, 2016
Yuck. Sky is truly in the gutter. I fully understand how brilliant this is to watch, and whomever caught it must be crying with glee, but these are clearly off the record comments and it's awful that someone thought they should be broadcast.
Couldn't disagree more. 'Message' politics is what's killing democracy. If more politicians said what they actually meant, we wouldn't be anywhere near this rather desperate pass.
But the lesson learned from this won't be 'maybe we should stop being such duplicitous arseholes', it will be 'every MP needs a live mic-spotting PR lackey on their shoulder every time they leave the house', y'know, just in case they say something honest and direct.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:21 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Couldn't disagree more. 'Message' politics is what's killing democracy. If more politicians said what they actually meant, we wouldn't be anywhere near this rather desperate pass.
But the lesson learned from this won't be 'maybe we should stop being such duplicitous arseholes', it will be 'every MP needs a live mic-spotting PR lackey on their shoulder every time they leave the house', y'know, just in case they say something honest and direct.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:21 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ken and Malky were in a news studio, if they thought they had privacy there then it says a lot about the cosy relationship between journalists and MPs
posted by fullerine at 7:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 7:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is this the link about wage suppression that you were looking for, Frowner? I didn't have time to read it previously.
posted by asok at 7:47 AM on July 5, 2016
posted by asok at 7:47 AM on July 5, 2016
Is not only a false and easily discounted statement but it actually suggests that the workers in the UK would benefit from eliminating freedom of movement across the EU, which is completely delusional.
Just wait until they reach the ultimate conclusion that it's actually against the interest of workers to allow free movement of labor from depressed areas of England to say, London, where higher wages are offered. "Internal papers, please!"
posted by happyroach at 8:05 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just wait until they reach the ultimate conclusion that it's actually against the interest of workers to allow free movement of labor from depressed areas of England to say, London, where higher wages are offered. "Internal papers, please!"
posted by happyroach at 8:05 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Ken Clarke stuff is leading the headlines at the moment - as well it should. If you're in a place with microphones - ASSUME THEY'RE ON. (more difficult in these days of smartphones, but really - you're in a news studio. What do you think happens in news studios?)
So Sky got itself a corker, and is running with it. Quite bloody right.
It's so shocking because Ken and Malc are saying exactly what everyone knows to be true, in a situation where nobody official is saying anything we know to be true - quite the opposite. You have to put a spin on things and keep other things quiet when you're a politician; that's part of the business, because you rely on sentiment just as much as anything else to make things turn out as you think they should. But there has to be a balance between that and admitting the raw facts, otherwise you end up where we are now . The boat has to float, but it has to have a rudder, and it's all float and no rudder at the moment.
I say all float, I mean sinking like a stone with lead boots on.
posted by Devonian at 8:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
So Sky got itself a corker, and is running with it. Quite bloody right.
It's so shocking because Ken and Malc are saying exactly what everyone knows to be true, in a situation where nobody official is saying anything we know to be true - quite the opposite. You have to put a spin on things and keep other things quiet when you're a politician; that's part of the business, because you rely on sentiment just as much as anything else to make things turn out as you think they should. But there has to be a balance between that and admitting the raw facts, otherwise you end up where we are now . The boat has to float, but it has to have a rudder, and it's all float and no rudder at the moment.
I say all float, I mean sinking like a stone with lead boots on.
posted by Devonian at 8:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Clarke: "There's no point denying it, they are my views."
Rifkind: "My comments speak for themselves, and they appear to be shared by quite a high proportion of the human race."
Rifkind on Sky: "It all adds to the sum of human life. It was a bit naughty of them."
posted by effbot at 8:26 AM on July 5, 2016
Rifkind: "My comments speak for themselves, and they appear to be shared by quite a high proportion of the human race."
Rifkind on Sky: "It all adds to the sum of human life. It was a bit naughty of them."
posted by effbot at 8:26 AM on July 5, 2016
This is complicated by the EU being composed of various nation states that aren't always cooperating with each other (the UK in particular seems to view the EU as a zero-sum game rather than a system where growth for everyone can be accomplished) and the various tribal divisions related to religion, language, ethnicity, sports, etc that have generally been packaged in some sort of 19th century concept of nationalism.
From 2014
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:28 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
From 2014
Within minutes of my arrival in Wisbech, "insecurity" ceases to be any kind of abstract concept. Neither does it feel like something that can be captured solely in terms of wages and employment conditions. It is a deep condition that blurs over into relationships, families, and mental health – as well as the delicate stuff of identity and belonging. Sometimes, it manifests itself in anger and hatred that bubbles away on social media and occasionally flares into ugly life in the real world; you can also sense it in a meek, heads-down sensibility among many of those who have recently come here.The Grauniad's John Harris
In its own way, Wisbech is a fascinating place: a once-wealthy river port whose most ambitious architecture suggests a relocated slice of Holland, where traditional English shops now sit among an expanding share owned by people from abroad, as well as the standard signs – value outlets, mainly – of lives lived in precarious circumstances. Since the EU expanded in 2004, the town's population has hugely increased and of its 30,000 people, about a third are now reckoned to be from eastern Europe – Poland and Lithuania, mainly, with a rising share from Latvia (there is also a less visible Portuguese community, more spread out across East Anglia).
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:28 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, we're cantering towards a fortnight after the Brexit vote and absolutely nothing is any clearer now than it was on Friday morning. You'd think that by now there'd at least be some options to choose from but I've read so many legal arguments that say so many contradictory things about what can happen next, that it's impossible to begin to decide what should.
Which is in itself a major crisis - the pound is doing the dying elephant, property portfolio finance firms are suspending trading, the corporate contingency plans for fleeing the UK are firming up, None of that momentum will slow down, let alone stabilise or reverse, until there are options on the table.
And if you're still suffering from any residual optimism, have a look for 'brexit contagion' on the newsfeeds.
Would invoking Article 50 tomorrow lance the boil? I don't think so. Annulling the referendum result may be the only thing to do as a practical measure to slam the brakes on, but we are being told that it's politically impossible (anyone citing 'morally' at me in this case will have headphones superglued onto their head and Boris saying "£350 million" played on endless loop). But, General Turgidson, I am becoming less and less interested in your estimates of what is possible and impossible.
posted by Devonian at 8:42 AM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Which is in itself a major crisis - the pound is doing the dying elephant, property portfolio finance firms are suspending trading, the corporate contingency plans for fleeing the UK are firming up, None of that momentum will slow down, let alone stabilise or reverse, until there are options on the table.
And if you're still suffering from any residual optimism, have a look for 'brexit contagion' on the newsfeeds.
Would invoking Article 50 tomorrow lance the boil? I don't think so. Annulling the referendum result may be the only thing to do as a practical measure to slam the brakes on, but we are being told that it's politically impossible (anyone citing 'morally' at me in this case will have headphones superglued onto their head and Boris saying "£350 million" played on endless loop). But, General Turgidson, I am becoming less and less interested in your estimates of what is possible and impossible.
posted by Devonian at 8:42 AM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Internal barriers to trade would indeed be a great way to increase revenues. Just think every bridge over a river being controlled by a local "tax collector" that charges a shilling a head to cross the bridge and 2 shillings per car/truck/lorry. Would be a right jolly old time.
Just think you could give all the unemployed lads in the council estates the license to tax local merchants accordingly. Good for the lads and good for the local business because now there are less "accidental" fires torching the place.
And let's be honest good Anglo-Saxons should require those filthy Normans to return to France because they've been taking all the highly paid jobs. Not to mention the filthy Danes getting drunk and brawling all the time. They are a major source of crime and violence you see.
posted by vuron at 9:00 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just think you could give all the unemployed lads in the council estates the license to tax local merchants accordingly. Good for the lads and good for the local business because now there are less "accidental" fires torching the place.
And let's be honest good Anglo-Saxons should require those filthy Normans to return to France because they've been taking all the highly paid jobs. Not to mention the filthy Danes getting drunk and brawling all the time. They are a major source of crime and violence you see.
posted by vuron at 9:00 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Patience, Devonian.
Some of the biggest rats have left the sinking ship, but there are a few big ones left.
After the self-destruction of the political parties is over, we can then turn our attention to the self-distruction of the UK itself.
posted by sour cream at 9:04 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Some of the biggest rats have left the sinking ship, but there are a few big ones left.
After the self-destruction of the political parties is over, we can then turn our attention to the self-distruction of the UK itself.
posted by sour cream at 9:04 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
To be honest I thought the "candid" thing about the Clarke/Rifkind tape was just a veneer of plausible deniability. I expect they're as frustrated at the uselessness of the current lot as we are, but didn't want to go the full Heseltine.
posted by Grangousier at 9:10 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:10 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
have a look for 'brexit contagion' on the newsfeeds.
As a counter-point, some EU foreign ministers and presidents held a round table as part of the Almedalen Week today and judging from news summaries, the consensus there was that the UK chaos would rather push countries (if not populist parties) in the opposite direction in the short term. And in the longer term it would all depend on EU itself anyway, not where UK ends up.
There were also comments along the lines of a post-brexit UK being mostly irrelevant; if you want to talk to Europe now, you call Merkel.
posted by effbot at 9:13 AM on July 5, 2016
As a counter-point, some EU foreign ministers and presidents held a round table as part of the Almedalen Week today and judging from news summaries, the consensus there was that the UK chaos would rather push countries (if not populist parties) in the opposite direction in the short term. And in the longer term it would all depend on EU itself anyway, not where UK ends up.
There were also comments along the lines of a post-brexit UK being mostly irrelevant; if you want to talk to Europe now, you call Merkel.
posted by effbot at 9:13 AM on July 5, 2016
52% of 72% vote to leave the EU: "The people have spoken! We must leave!"
58% of 67% vote to reject the new junior doctors' contract: "It's only 40%..."
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 9:18 AM on July 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
58% of 67% vote to reject the new junior doctors' contract: "It's only 40%..."
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 9:18 AM on July 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
Yeah. I mean, we still have nukes (and whoever wins the Tory leadership will get the button, so that's a cheery thought) but other than that and the permanent seat in the UN, we can speak for the Falklands and the Pitcairn Islands and, er, um...
It's a shame, I suppose, to collapse back from being the ranking world power to where we were at the end of the 17th century, but nobody can say we didn't leave our mark on the world.
Our history, bookended between the deaths of the Queens Elizabeth.
posted by Devonian at 9:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's a shame, I suppose, to collapse back from being the ranking world power to where we were at the end of the 17th century, but nobody can say we didn't leave our mark on the world.
Our history, bookended between the deaths of the Queens Elizabeth.
posted by Devonian at 9:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
The first time ever that I'm fearful of what would happen if she drops dead.
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
The first time ever that I'm fearful of what would happen if she drops dead.
A rapid series of Republican votes among the remaining countries that have the British monarch as the head of state.
posted by Talez at 9:57 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
A rapid series of Republican votes among the remaining countries that have the British monarch as the head of state.
posted by Talez at 9:57 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sigh. One of my long term reasons for being pro-European was getting the Queen off the money before Australia did, just for the giggles.
They'll have a cane toad or something cool and we'll have fucking King Arthur.
posted by vbfg at 10:02 AM on July 5, 2016
They'll have a cane toad or something cool and we'll have fucking King Arthur.
posted by vbfg at 10:02 AM on July 5, 2016
Erm.... Aren't cane toads a hideously damaging invasive species that wipes out Australian species that were already there? Admittedly, good replacement for the British monarch taking history into account, but they might go for something from the country.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:07 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MattWPBS at 10:07 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't a hypothetical UK Euro coin have the Queen on it?
Well, there would be money without the Queen. There are local designs of currency and the British version would very likely have Betty on, yes. I would buy my fags with that money and use the non-Queen money for more formal occasions.
(Shamefully every Australian I could think of when I posted is / was a Rugby League player, and that'd probably be more divisive than the Queen. So I went with cane toads. Sorry.)
posted by vbfg at 10:13 AM on July 5, 2016
Well, there would be money without the Queen. There are local designs of currency and the British version would very likely have Betty on, yes. I would buy my fags with that money and use the non-Queen money for more formal occasions.
(Shamefully every Australian I could think of when I posted is / was a Rugby League player, and that'd probably be more divisive than the Queen. So I went with cane toads. Sorry.)
posted by vbfg at 10:13 AM on July 5, 2016
(Shamefully every Australian I could think of when I posted is / was a Rugby League player, and that'd probably be more divisive than the Queen. So I went with cane toads. Sorry.)
QE2 is only on one side of the $5 note and the coins.
posted by Talez at 10:19 AM on July 5, 2016
QE2 is only on one side of the $5 note and the coins.
posted by Talez at 10:19 AM on July 5, 2016
> "I simply can't see Scots voting for independence when the currency will be one of the above."
If I had a vote where I live the first time (which I didn't), I would have voted for Scotland to stay in. However, if the UK actually exits the EU and the EEA, if I had a vote for the next independence referendum (which I won't), I would vote for independence even if I am told the new currency will be Flanian Pobble Beads.
I'm reasonably sure there are a number of locals who actually have a vote who feel the same way, and it would only take one in ten of those who were opposed the last time flipping.
posted by kyrademon at 10:31 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
If I had a vote where I live the first time (which I didn't), I would have voted for Scotland to stay in. However, if the UK actually exits the EU and the EEA, if I had a vote for the next independence referendum (which I won't), I would vote for independence even if I am told the new currency will be Flanian Pobble Beads.
I'm reasonably sure there are a number of locals who actually have a vote who feel the same way, and it would only take one in ten of those who were opposed the last time flipping.
posted by kyrademon at 10:31 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well, there would be money without the Queen.
At this point, I think the face on the pound may as well be Guy Fawkes. Above the Latin for "We blowed it up good!"
posted by happyroach at 10:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
At this point, I think the face on the pound may as well be Guy Fawkes. Above the Latin for "We blowed it up good!"
posted by happyroach at 10:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
the Latin for "We blowed it up good!"
Brexivimus, I think?
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:46 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Brexivimus, I think?
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:46 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Tory round one:
Here are the results. Theresa May has won the backing of 50% of Tory MPs.posted by Mister Bijou at 10:48 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Liam Fox drops out.
Theresa May - 165
Andrea Leadsom - 66
Michael Gove - 48
Stephen Crabb - 34
Liam Fox - 16
I simply can't see Scots voting for independence when the currency will be one of the above.
It'll be one of the above whatever we do, though - there wouldn't be any more "vote No, and retain this nice strong stable currency!" option.
posted by Catseye at 10:54 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
It'll be one of the above whatever we do, though - there wouldn't be any more "vote No, and retain this nice strong stable currency!" option.
posted by Catseye at 10:54 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am neither a European nor an economist so I am probably getting this all wrong, but I thought the main problem with the Euro is that it's well-calibrated to the post-industrial economies of northern and western Europe (particularly Germany) but that its strength handicaps the weaker economies of eastern and southern Europe.
Surely eurozone-Scotland's economy would be closer to that of Germany, France and Benelux than to Spain or Greece?
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:03 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Surely eurozone-Scotland's economy would be closer to that of Germany, France and Benelux than to Spain or Greece?
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:03 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Scotland's economy is somewhat dependent upon resource extraction, specifically oil. And it suffered the same destruction of manufacturing under Thatcher that north and central England did, I believe. I don't think it's as bad off as much of Southern Europe, but it's not Germany or France.
posted by tavella at 11:06 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tavella at 11:06 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tech industry gangs up on European Commission, calls for cookie law to be scrapped
While I'm not a big fan of the ad industry joining together to argue in favor of abandoning a big chunk of privacy law, I do wonder whether the cookie directive was at all relevant here. It turned browsing the web in Europe into a near constant stream of messages saying basically "the EU has done something utterly stupid and now requires that we tell you about web technologies that have been around for decades as if you want to read about that instead of getting on with looking at whatever you came here for." If that was my main interaction with the EU in everyday life, I'd be ticked off too.
Nor did it do anything to actually contribute to privacy because sites all set cookies anyway and then displayed a banner letting you know they did so, instead of asking permission first.
posted by zachlipton at 11:13 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
While I'm not a big fan of the ad industry joining together to argue in favor of abandoning a big chunk of privacy law, I do wonder whether the cookie directive was at all relevant here. It turned browsing the web in Europe into a near constant stream of messages saying basically "the EU has done something utterly stupid and now requires that we tell you about web technologies that have been around for decades as if you want to read about that instead of getting on with looking at whatever you came here for." If that was my main interaction with the EU in everyday life, I'd be ticked off too.
Nor did it do anything to actually contribute to privacy because sites all set cookies anyway and then displayed a banner letting you know they did so, instead of asking permission first.
posted by zachlipton at 11:13 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
winterhill: "Leave was about sending a message to an oblivious government in London about your shit life… [M]ost people didn't actually want to leave the EU and just wanted to give Cameron and Gideon a slap. "
If this is what most of the Leave voters are thinking—why did they just vote in a Tory majority? Isn't kicking the bums out the traditional way of sending a message to the government?
In other countries, we've seen votes go to socialists, greens, fascists as people get more frustrated with the economic crisis. Why in the UK do most of the populace seem perfectly happy with their government, but take our their pain on the EU?
posted by vasi at 11:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
If this is what most of the Leave voters are thinking—why did they just vote in a Tory majority? Isn't kicking the bums out the traditional way of sending a message to the government?
In other countries, we've seen votes go to socialists, greens, fascists as people get more frustrated with the economic crisis. Why in the UK do most of the populace seem perfectly happy with their government, but take our their pain on the EU?
posted by vasi at 11:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Because the political and media class in the UK have spent the last 20 years blaming the EU for everything bad that happens. They said a thing for years and years and then were shocked shocked shocked when a lot of people said 'ok let's do something about it then'.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Scotland wouldn't be the only small economy in Northern Europe.
It's instructive to consider Sweden's currency. The country joined the EU in 2005 and nominally is committed by Maastricht to adopt the Euro, but has kept the its own currency by not taking the necessary steps for the Eurozone inclusion. Plenty of wriggle room.
On the other hand, Ireland has shown promise lately (after a bloody patch) and is in the Euro. So it's not the kiss of death for small countries either.
Iceland was flirting a while back with abandoning its krona for the Canadian dollar. Don't know what's happened to that.
In short, small countries can work inside or without currency unions. If anyone cares to predict the state of the Scottish, the English, the EU and the world economies at the point a putative independent Scotland comes into being, then the least worst option should be derivable. But it's not a show-stopper.
posted by Devonian at 11:38 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's instructive to consider Sweden's currency. The country joined the EU in 2005 and nominally is committed by Maastricht to adopt the Euro, but has kept the its own currency by not taking the necessary steps for the Eurozone inclusion. Plenty of wriggle room.
On the other hand, Ireland has shown promise lately (after a bloody patch) and is in the Euro. So it's not the kiss of death for small countries either.
Iceland was flirting a while back with abandoning its krona for the Canadian dollar. Don't know what's happened to that.
In short, small countries can work inside or without currency unions. If anyone cares to predict the state of the Scottish, the English, the EU and the world economies at the point a putative independent Scotland comes into being, then the least worst option should be derivable. But it's not a show-stopper.
posted by Devonian at 11:38 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's all one big balancing act. When things go up shit creek in a small economy you need to look at what your goals and priorities are. In a lot of situations where you have your own currency the market is probably going to do much of it for you but without regard for the living standards of your people.
The difference between an Iceland and a Greek/Spain is that with Iceland you can point blame at the markets and the bankers when living standards go to hell because the currency has been massively devalued, inflation has driven up, interest rates are up and real wages are in the toilet.
Meanwhile, Spain/Greece can't just with the wave of a hand institute a 20% real wage devaluation on the country to remain competitive like what would effectively happen with your currency shitting a brick. It would be political fucking suicide. And this is what people mean when they say it fucks smaller countries. It doesn't really fuck small countries any worse. The eventual effect on living standards will be the same no matter whether you're on the euro or on your own currency. The difference is the plausible deniability it gives the ruling government as to how fucked things are, who caused it, and how to fix it.
At least when the shit hit the fan the Greeks and Spaniards didn't lose their savings overnight by having the currency become effectively worthless.
posted by Talez at 11:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
The difference between an Iceland and a Greek/Spain is that with Iceland you can point blame at the markets and the bankers when living standards go to hell because the currency has been massively devalued, inflation has driven up, interest rates are up and real wages are in the toilet.
Meanwhile, Spain/Greece can't just with the wave of a hand institute a 20% real wage devaluation on the country to remain competitive like what would effectively happen with your currency shitting a brick. It would be political fucking suicide. And this is what people mean when they say it fucks smaller countries. It doesn't really fuck small countries any worse. The eventual effect on living standards will be the same no matter whether you're on the euro or on your own currency. The difference is the plausible deniability it gives the ruling government as to how fucked things are, who caused it, and how to fix it.
At least when the shit hit the fan the Greeks and Spaniards didn't lose their savings overnight by having the currency become effectively worthless.
posted by Talez at 11:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
So the good news tonight is that Theresa May is likely to be the next Prime Minister.
...
Someone hold me.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
...
Someone hold me.
posted by MattWPBS at 11:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well on the bright side the next Prime Minister will basically be a sacrificial lamb. Either they will tell Brexiters to fuck off and then get pounded by the polls (apologies to Chuck Tingle) or they'll push the button on article 50, destroy the economy and then get pounded by the polls.
Based upon her weak support of Remain thus far I would assume that she'll try to bluff everyone into thinking she'll push the button (for some sort of weakening of the EU position on the EU court system in the name of national sovereignty) and then put off actually pushing the button for 2 years until she feels like clearer heads have triumphed.
That way she gets seen as the savior of Britain and then gets to nuke the British safety net from the inside.
The big question mark is whether the markets and corporations are willing to tolerate the political class stretching out the drama for 2 years. That's ages in the business world and I can't imagine many companies being willing to be in limbo that long because the markets are going to punish the hell out of them
posted by vuron at 12:07 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Based upon her weak support of Remain thus far I would assume that she'll try to bluff everyone into thinking she'll push the button (for some sort of weakening of the EU position on the EU court system in the name of national sovereignty) and then put off actually pushing the button for 2 years until she feels like clearer heads have triumphed.
That way she gets seen as the savior of Britain and then gets to nuke the British safety net from the inside.
The big question mark is whether the markets and corporations are willing to tolerate the political class stretching out the drama for 2 years. That's ages in the business world and I can't imagine many companies being willing to be in limbo that long because the markets are going to punish the hell out of them
posted by vuron at 12:07 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Iceland was flirting a while back with abandoning its krona for the Canadian dollar. Don't know what's happened to that.
They kicked the tires, but eventually figured it would be a safer bet to keep their options open: Sigfusson told the Wall Street Journal that he is an “admirer” of Canada, but his government will continue to pursue EU accession talks, and will decide at a later time whether to adopt the euro or keep the krona. It's not been raised since. I don't know if this was ever more than just a stalking horse for an eventual discussion of adopting the euro at some future date. Talks which failed in 2015 anyway.
posted by bonehead at 12:16 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
They kicked the tires, but eventually figured it would be a safer bet to keep their options open: Sigfusson told the Wall Street Journal that he is an “admirer” of Canada, but his government will continue to pursue EU accession talks, and will decide at a later time whether to adopt the euro or keep the krona. It's not been raised since. I don't know if this was ever more than just a stalking horse for an eventual discussion of adopting the euro at some future date. Talks which failed in 2015 anyway.
posted by bonehead at 12:16 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
...put off actually pushing the button for 2 years until she feels like clearer heads have triumphed.
How long can she really stall, though? How long could anyone? Business simply isn't going to wait that long. A migration will happen to the Continent regardless, as that's where the economic certainty is.
Either they will tell Brexiters to fuck off and then get pounded by the polls...
I still think that the Big Vote will be backtracked/ignored. It's a matter of who gets assigned the blame. With the right amount of spin, however, maybe that doesn't even happen. "Upon examining the situation, and taking all opinions into account, including that expressed in the Referendum, I have concluded that it is in the interest of national unity to retain the current arrangements, blah blah blah, leadership in time of crisis, firm hand on the tiller, do my utmost to protect the concerns expressed by those disappointed by my decision, etc., etc., etc." Who knows -- maybe there is such national relief that they can get away with it.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:29 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
How long can she really stall, though? How long could anyone? Business simply isn't going to wait that long. A migration will happen to the Continent regardless, as that's where the economic certainty is.
Either they will tell Brexiters to fuck off and then get pounded by the polls...
I still think that the Big Vote will be backtracked/ignored. It's a matter of who gets assigned the blame. With the right amount of spin, however, maybe that doesn't even happen. "Upon examining the situation, and taking all opinions into account, including that expressed in the Referendum, I have concluded that it is in the interest of national unity to retain the current arrangements, blah blah blah, leadership in time of crisis, firm hand on the tiller, do my utmost to protect the concerns expressed by those disappointed by my decision, etc., etc., etc." Who knows -- maybe there is such national relief that they can get away with it.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:29 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe we can make the referendum an annual thing, like the Eurovision song contest or the FA Cup final, but with less interesting costumes than the former and less coherent post-result interviews than the latter.
posted by dng at 12:48 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by dng at 12:48 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the only way to walk it back at this point would be via giving the Leave campaign and/or Cameron's government a kicking for letting the country down - not thinking it through, not having any plans, not having the best interests of the country at heart in the first place, not having a coherent vision of what Brexit even is. So "Brexit means Brexit" and we will of course take the voice of the public very seriously etc etc etc consider another referendum before 2020 once we've done the groundwork, meanwhile we're still in the EU and Juncker can't stop us so there.
posted by Catseye at 12:50 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Catseye at 12:50 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
> I still think that the Big Vote will be backtracked/ignored.
But that incurs many of the penalties of Brexit (economic turmoil, companies relocating as a hedge against uncertainty, the European financial center of gravity shifting to the south and east, continued decline in British influence within the Euro zone) with none of the claimed benefits - not even "we really stuck it to those Europeans".
So yeah, that seems right, I guess?
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:50 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
But that incurs many of the penalties of Brexit (economic turmoil, companies relocating as a hedge against uncertainty, the European financial center of gravity shifting to the south and east, continued decline in British influence within the Euro zone) with none of the claimed benefits - not even "we really stuck it to those Europeans".
So yeah, that seems right, I guess?
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:50 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Clarke: "There's no point denying it, they are my views."This reminds me of Lindsey Graham's post Trump comments.
Rifkind: "My comments speak for themselves, and they appear to be shared by quite a high proportion of the human race."
There are a lot of politicians who are looking at the current state of politics and wondering whether being on message is worth it.
posted by fullerine at 12:51 PM on July 5, 2016
I think it's going to happen. I think the idea that it won't happen is wishful thinking.
I think things are Just That Stupid right now.
posted by kyrademon at 1:14 PM on July 5, 2016
I think things are Just That Stupid right now.
posted by kyrademon at 1:14 PM on July 5, 2016
I think it's going to happen, too - but I think the idea that it will happen with terms that are acceptable to Leave voters is also wishful thinking. This Venn Diagram pretty neatly sums up how untenable any of the currently forseeable Brexit scenarios are.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just saw someone on Facebook blaming Nicola Sturgeon, personally, for the fall of the pound. We are so far through the looking glass that even the Mad Hatter thinks we've lost it.
Right now the only thing cheering me up is the thought that 150 years in the future, this whole situation will just be some teenager's reeeeeeally booooooring homework assignment.
posted by Catseye at 1:28 PM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Right now the only thing cheering me up is the thought that 150 years in the future, this whole situation will just be some teenager's reeeeeeally booooooring homework assignment.
posted by Catseye at 1:28 PM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Mere Orthodoxy: Brexit and the Moral Vision of Nationhood, Alastair Roberts
This referendum represented a great deal more than a vote on Britain’s future in the EU. It came to stand for the differences between profoundly polarized visions of what our country means, and what it means to be British or a member of one of the UK nations. It exposed people’s deepest political values, sharply contrasting understandings of the character of the political subject, and visions for Britain’s future identity.posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:32 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
The opposing parties variously characterized themselves and each other—nativist xenophobes versus welcoming liberals; ordinary, real, and decent people versus persons betraying or taking advantage of Britain; enlightened and reasonable people versus uneducated bigots; commonsensical people versus untrustworthy experts. The sacred political values of each side were clearly on display. Both sides have seemed to struggle to understand how the other could support the positions they did without being hateful, evil, stupid, treacherous, misled, or uneducated.
The purely political choices:
1) Fuck the vaunted middle, because the immediate effects of pushing the button are on them. Good luck with that.
2) Renege on promises, and have dark forces attack from both left and right. Good luck with that.
posted by vbfg at 1:38 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
1) Fuck the vaunted middle, because the immediate effects of pushing the button are on them. Good luck with that.
2) Renege on promises, and have dark forces attack from both left and right. Good luck with that.
posted by vbfg at 1:38 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's my problem. I mean, it does seem like what England (or Wangland) fundamentally wants; they've never really been happy in the EU, despite all the special concessions. There's just a bone-deep Little England xenophobia, where people are convinced that the reason for NHS waiting times is young healthy Eastern European immigrants, not an aging population and constant underfunding and that if only they kick immigrants out they'll get seen promptly. And if they really want to turn inward, well, sad for their kids but I'm not going to say they can't.
But the thing is, they clearly voted on a fantasy, with no realistic judgement on what the costs would be. Sure, in the end people will do trade agreements with rump-UK; it's still a big economy, and even if it drops more places in the world chart it'll still be worth making deals with. But it's not going to happen immediately and there is going to be a big economic price in the meantime. And some of what they lose will likely never be restored; post Brexit London will simply not be as attractive for finance as it is now. And while maybe it'd be better for that bubble to pop, those people support a whole lot of working class jobs: selling food, repairing cars, building houses, all that.
So there's a terrible cleft stick; if the voters don't get Brexit, the fantasy will continue and support for the UKIP will only grow. Yet if they do get Brexit, the consequent economic depression will only feed the desire for fascism.
posted by tavella at 1:41 PM on July 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
But the thing is, they clearly voted on a fantasy, with no realistic judgement on what the costs would be. Sure, in the end people will do trade agreements with rump-UK; it's still a big economy, and even if it drops more places in the world chart it'll still be worth making deals with. But it's not going to happen immediately and there is going to be a big economic price in the meantime. And some of what they lose will likely never be restored; post Brexit London will simply not be as attractive for finance as it is now. And while maybe it'd be better for that bubble to pop, those people support a whole lot of working class jobs: selling food, repairing cars, building houses, all that.
So there's a terrible cleft stick; if the voters don't get Brexit, the fantasy will continue and support for the UKIP will only grow. Yet if they do get Brexit, the consequent economic depression will only feed the desire for fascism.
posted by tavella at 1:41 PM on July 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
Just saw someone on Facebook blaming Nicola Sturgeon, personally, for the fall of the pound.
It's quite odd. Mark Carney is getting trashed online as well for "talking down the pound." He's the only adult left in the room (Nicola Sturgeon occupies a different room).
posted by My Dad at 1:56 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's quite odd. Mark Carney is getting trashed online as well for "talking down the pound." He's the only adult left in the room (Nicola Sturgeon occupies a different room).
posted by My Dad at 1:56 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Once again it seems like the difference between the Left and the Right is that the Right is ultimately able to focus and think strategically:
The Conservatives did not spend money on the EU referendum because the party was officially neutral. Labour, however, spent close to its legal limit of £5m as a major participant in the contest for the remain side.
posted by My Dad at 2:02 PM on July 5, 2016
The Conservatives did not spend money on the EU referendum because the party was officially neutral. Labour, however, spent close to its legal limit of £5m as a major participant in the contest for the remain side.
posted by My Dad at 2:02 PM on July 5, 2016
Well, Mark Carney is both An Immigrant and An Expert, what could he possibly know about keeping the economy going in times of financial crisis...
*weeps softly*
posted by Catseye at 2:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
*weeps softly*
posted by Catseye at 2:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
I think not going through on Brexit is the only option.
I didn't say that I thought it would be taken.
posted by Devonian at 2:31 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
I didn't say that I thought it would be taken.
posted by Devonian at 2:31 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's quite odd. Mark Carney is getting trashed online as well for "talking down the pound."
When you've spent ages ignoring repeated warnings about what will happen if you continue on your path, when those consequences finally happen you can either admit that you were wrong to ignore the warnings and express deep sorrow and contrition for what you've done and try somehow to help resolve the situation, or you can forgo the apology and the contrition and the attempts at rectification and instead claim that the originator of those warnings is the one to blame for their predictions coming true, either through them forcing it to happen out of spite or other, perhaps more diabolical, means, and exact upon them the necessary revenge.
And also we've already got this pyre built we might as well use it
posted by dng at 2:44 PM on July 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
When you've spent ages ignoring repeated warnings about what will happen if you continue on your path, when those consequences finally happen you can either admit that you were wrong to ignore the warnings and express deep sorrow and contrition for what you've done and try somehow to help resolve the situation, or you can forgo the apology and the contrition and the attempts at rectification and instead claim that the originator of those warnings is the one to blame for their predictions coming true, either through them forcing it to happen out of spite or other, perhaps more diabolical, means, and exact upon them the necessary revenge.
And also we've already got this pyre built we might as well use it
posted by dng at 2:44 PM on July 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
we've already got this pyre built we might as well use it
This is my new favourite tagline for every political train wreck ever.
posted by chapps at 3:04 PM on July 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is my new favourite tagline for every political train wreck ever.
posted by chapps at 3:04 PM on July 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm coming to the conclusion that the only plausible option is regular EEA membership (Norway-style, complete with freedom of movement). There's no way that the EU would agree to EEA membership without freedom of movement. But being outside the common market would be economically distastrous, so the only economically viable options are EEA membership or EU membership. Backing out of the referendum would be politically disastrous for any MPs that voted for it (at least for any MPs outside Scotland and London), so staying in the EU is very unlikely. But leaving the EU and joining the EEA would give voters what they asked for. It wouldn't give most of them what they thought they had asked for, of course. But since the referendum had no details about what the exit from the EU would look like, it would in no way be going against the results of the referendum. The government would say that this was the only way to respect the will of the people while safeguarding the economy, people would whinge about it, and then they'd go back to leading their usual lives (complete with now-justified complaints about unelected people in Brussels making decisions for them).
posted by klausness at 4:30 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by klausness at 4:30 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
> "... complete with now-justified complaints about unelected people in Brussels making decisions for them"
NO TAXATION WITHOUT NO REPRESENTATION!
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
NO TAXATION WITHOUT NO REPRESENTATION!
posted by kyrademon at 5:31 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
But the UK does have representation in the EU parliament. It's just that the UK decided to send utter asshats who never attend meetings.
It's like sending the douchebro from marketing to represent your department at a board meeting. You only have yourself to blame
posted by vuron at 6:09 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's like sending the douchebro from marketing to represent your department at a board meeting. You only have yourself to blame
posted by vuron at 6:09 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
> "But the UK does have representation in the EU parliament."
A situation that was apparently intolerable.
posted by kyrademon at 6:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
A situation that was apparently intolerable.
posted by kyrademon at 6:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Farage is one of them, so more "intolerant", but either way...
posted by Etrigan at 6:49 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 6:49 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's Farage, he can be both.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:08 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:08 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
But the UK does have representation in the EU parliament. It's just that the UK decided to send utter asshats who never attend meetings.
It's the EU parliament Catch-22 really: nobody takes it seriously because it has little real power and people vote in lots of asshats and idiots, and then people vote in lots of asshats and idiots and give it little real power because nobody takes it seriously.
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:19 PM on July 5, 2016
It's the EU parliament Catch-22 really: nobody takes it seriously because it has little real power and people vote in lots of asshats and idiots, and then people vote in lots of asshats and idiots and give it little real power because nobody takes it seriously.
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:19 PM on July 5, 2016
Question: So is the reason that Google news is showing Andrea Leadsom among "top stories" today, but Theresa May doesn't show up on the list at all down to Murdoch press all pushing Leadsom?
Observation: Amazon UK's "Prime Deals of the Day" today include seven kinds of vodka and a very sharp long knife. Coincidence?
posted by taz at 2:02 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
Observation: Amazon UK's "Prime Deals of the Day" today include seven kinds of vodka and a very sharp long knife. Coincidence?
posted by taz at 2:02 AM on July 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
I made a new thread for discussion of the Chilcot Enquiry.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 2:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Remain’s leaders would have kept us straitjacketed into the EU’s current death-by-a-thousand-cuts version of corporate neoliberalism. At least now, shed of that distraction, we have our governmental elites much more clearly in our sights. How smaller, shabbier and curiously more vulnerable they look, without that EU cloak they avowed to detest draped around their shoulders. And this is as it should be, as they’ve basically put everything into play.Irvine Welsh - The Beauty Beneath Brexit.
posted by rongorongo at 3:48 AM on July 6, 2016
Irvine Welsh - The Beauty Beneath Brexit.
I just read this. Seems like accelerationist BS, frankly.
posted by dhens at 4:46 AM on July 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
I just read this. Seems like accelerationist BS, frankly.
posted by dhens at 4:46 AM on July 6, 2016 [13 favorites]
Agree with dhens. The article basically says "we've failed to hold politicians to account for a lifetime, and despite the EU not really being relevant to that fact, this is the moment that means we're about to start!"
posted by Dysk at 5:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 5:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yep, it's going to get awful and of course the Tories are worse than the EU would ever be in terms of being corporatist and neoliberal but this time they aren't going to have cover for their perfidy so Labour will some how come out of this okay, I guess.
posted by vuron at 6:02 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by vuron at 6:02 AM on July 6, 2016
Accelerationists are full-on underpant gnomes, as are most ot the Lexiters. The Reg's pet contrarian Andrew Orlowski wrote a piece saying leaving was a good idea because the EU sometimes passes bad laws influenced by lobbyists and besides we could really help Africa.
Both these things are true. Yet the first won't stop happening and the second won't start happening through Brexit; the reality will be more bad laws and more exploitation.
Of course, add he great socialist reawakening and we're off to the races. But, uh, you could have that first, perhaps, so the whole Brexit -For-Positive-Social-Change would then make sense?
posted by Devonian at 6:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
Both these things are true. Yet the first won't stop happening and the second won't start happening through Brexit; the reality will be more bad laws and more exploitation.
Of course, add he great socialist reawakening and we're off to the races. But, uh, you could have that first, perhaps, so the whole Brexit -For-Positive-Social-Change would then make sense?
posted by Devonian at 6:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [10 favorites]
“After the EU Referendum: What Next for Britain and Europe?” [1:31:11] —Simon Hix, London School of Economics and Political Science, 29 June 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 7:06 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 7:06 AM on July 6, 2016
Let's not forget the right-accelerationist take on Brexit either: a chance to create a Britain that stands outside the EU and the EEA. A country that, now free from EU regulations covering labour law and human rights, can set itself up as a Western European Dubai. One that can leverage its new "freedom" from EU oversight to become a giant tax haven: a Cayman Islands with 54 million people; a giant financial pirate ship lurking off the western flank of France. There are seriously people advocating this.
posted by Sonny Jim at 7:17 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 7:17 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Western European Dubai
Wow. That's something to regret.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:22 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wow. That's something to regret.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:22 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't understand why Theresa May hasn't won the Tory leadership outright after securing 165 out of 329 votes in the first round, or 50.15%. Surely that's a clear mandate and they're all Maysketeers now.
They must want to leave room for people to change their minds before making a final decision. Can we have Round Two of our EU Referendum, then, please?
posted by rory at 8:16 AM on July 6, 2016
They must want to leave room for people to change their minds before making a final decision. Can we have Round Two of our EU Referendum, then, please?
posted by rory at 8:16 AM on July 6, 2016
I can't understand why Theresa May hasn't won the Tory leadership outright after securing 165 out of 329 votes in the first round, or 50.15%. Surely that's a clear mandate and they're all Maysketeers now.
The process isn't to find a leader. It's to find the top two parliamentary prospects to send to the Tory rank and file membership for the real leadership ballot.
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on July 6, 2016
The process isn't to find a leader. It's to find the top two parliamentary prospects to send to the Tory rank and file membership for the real leadership ballot.
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on July 6, 2016
That's because the Tory leadership rules say the MPs must create a shortlist of two, on whom the membership then votes. It doesn't matter if the first name has 328 MP votes and the second just their own - it's up to the membership to decide. If there's only one nomination, then they win by default without the membership vote, but that's not going to happen in this case.
So good luck with that, everyone. The future of the country absolutely now depends on the whims of Daily Mail readers.
posted by Devonian at 8:45 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
So good luck with that, everyone. The future of the country absolutely now depends on the whims of Daily Mail readers.
posted by Devonian at 8:45 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
The future of the country absolutely now depends on the whims of Daily Mail readers.
What about The Sun readers who are just going to vote for the biggest pair of tits?
posted by Talez at 8:51 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
What about The Sun readers who are just going to vote for the biggest pair of tits?
posted by Talez at 8:51 AM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
What about The Sun readers who are just going to vote for the biggest pair of tits?
Well then somebody should tell them that Johnson and Farage have removed themselves from consideration.
posted by one_bean at 8:54 AM on July 6, 2016 [36 favorites]
Well then somebody should tell them that Johnson and Farage have removed themselves from consideration.
posted by one_bean at 8:54 AM on July 6, 2016 [36 favorites]
So May has secured her place on that final ballot now, and they're just waiting to see whether Fox's and Crabb's supporters fall in behind Gove or Leadsom. Then a faceless group of 150,000 people gets to choose which one becomes the next PM for up to four years, and gets the power to trigger Article 50, or not. Gotcha.
One could almost say that most British voters will have no say in choosing who will determine the direction of future UK law. Democracy!
posted by rory at 8:55 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
One could almost say that most British voters will have no say in choosing who will determine the direction of future UK law. Democracy!
posted by rory at 8:55 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Fox and Crabb have gone with the May team, if this mornings BBC news was accurate.
Does anyone have any links to the experiences or ideas for a way forward from BAME people, other than the Kazuo Ishiguro piece in the FT.
I see a number of pundits stating that racist attacks should simply be dealt with by the police, but given that this hasn't worked in the past due to the police being institutionally racist, what other ways are there for dealing with the rise in right wing terrorism?
posted by asok at 8:58 AM on July 6, 2016
Does anyone have any links to the experiences or ideas for a way forward from BAME people, other than the Kazuo Ishiguro piece in the FT.
I see a number of pundits stating that racist attacks should simply be dealt with by the police, but given that this hasn't worked in the past due to the police being institutionally racist, what other ways are there for dealing with the rise in right wing terrorism?
posted by asok at 8:58 AM on July 6, 2016
Fox, Crabbe, Eagle, Salmond, Sturgeon... we're living in an Aesopian fable, aren't we? And I thought it was a Grmm Brothers fairytale.
posted by Devonian at 9:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 9:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [17 favorites]
My gift from the Open Rights Group for supporting their campaign against the Snoopers' Charter is taking on even more ominous overtones lately.
posted by rory at 9:05 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rory at 9:05 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Quick round up on the day's Brexit news:
Sterling is at a 30 year low against the dollar ($1.29 as I write this).
Paris is bidding for London's banks.
More property funds have stopped any withdrawals.
Our Trade Minister is apparently delusinal and expects a Second Elizebethan Golden Age.
Jeremy Corbyn has apologised on behalf of the Labour Party for the Iraq War, so we might see movement in their leadership challenge/coup.
We are all still doomed.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:09 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sterling is at a 30 year low against the dollar ($1.29 as I write this).
Paris is bidding for London's banks.
More property funds have stopped any withdrawals.
Our Trade Minister is apparently delusinal and expects a Second Elizebethan Golden Age.
Jeremy Corbyn has apologised on behalf of the Labour Party for the Iraq War, so we might see movement in their leadership challenge/coup.
We are all still doomed.
posted by MattWPBS at 10:09 AM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Our Trade Minister is apparently delusinal and expects a Second Elizebethan Golden Age.
Pirates. They really are talking about pirates, aren't they? What are we going to do, declare war on Saudi Arabia and seize the oil tankers under letters of marque?
Perhaps we should run some audio streaming from Buckland Abbey and hear what's going on with Drake's Drum.
posted by Devonian at 10:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Pirates. They really are talking about pirates, aren't they? What are we going to do, declare war on Saudi Arabia and seize the oil tankers under letters of marque?
Perhaps we should run some audio streaming from Buckland Abbey and hear what's going on with Drake's Drum.
posted by Devonian at 10:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
Second Elizebethan Golden Age
Presumably this means Shakespeare? Because I don't think a neo-Tudor foreign policy is going to go super well.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Presumably this means Shakespeare? Because I don't think a neo-Tudor foreign policy is going to go super well.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:34 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
oh no definitely you are right it is probably Make England Great Again With Pirates
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:35 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:35 AM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Apropos of the last comment, I have to describe one of my greatest joys on this past July 4th as telling anyone within earshot that when one of my twins was crying it was because he or she wanted to "make America great again." It was just an Independence Day joy!
posted by OmieWise at 10:50 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 10:50 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Pirates. They really are talking about pirates, aren't they? What are we going to do, declare war on Saudi Arabia and seize the oil tankers under letters of marque?
Mate, if Britain does go down the path of no EEA I'm pretty sure you'll see Gibraltan pirates on the strait pillaging what they can.
posted by Talez at 10:57 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mate, if Britain does go down the path of no EEA I'm pretty sure you'll see Gibraltan pirates on the strait pillaging what they can.
posted by Talez at 10:57 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
asok, Media Diversified has been writing about Brexit and also lots from them on Twitter.
posted by Helga-woo at 11:17 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Helga-woo at 11:17 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Gove's team have apparently been 'begging' for tactical votes to stop Andrea Leadsome getting on the ballot.
posted by MattWPBS at 12:24 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by MattWPBS at 12:24 PM on July 6, 2016
I was prepared to be for it if Gove is aginn it, but then they name dropped IDS and I ran for the fucking hills.
posted by vbfg at 12:36 PM on July 6, 2016
posted by vbfg at 12:36 PM on July 6, 2016
I'm coming to the conclusion that the only plausible option is regular EEA membership (Norway-style, complete with freedom of movement).
But when?
The EU cannot negotiate with the UK on any trade agreement before the Brexit is finished.
So we're looking at 2+ years before the Brexit is concluded and another 2+ years negotiations (best case scenario) on EEA membership. So we're looking at another five years (best case).
posted by sour cream at 1:03 PM on July 6, 2016
But when?
The EU cannot negotiate with the UK on any trade agreement before the Brexit is finished.
So we're looking at 2+ years before the Brexit is concluded and another 2+ years negotiations (best case scenario) on EEA membership. So we're looking at another five years (best case).
posted by sour cream at 1:03 PM on July 6, 2016
The New Statesman: "Think Jeremy Corbyn's not a leader? You don't understand what leadership is"
Corbyn, [...] has not taken union membership support for granted, and has shown himself able to reach out and demonstrate that he would open spaces in politics for the disenfranchised and ensure they had a voice. As a result, he has re-engaged hundreds of thousands of young people.
[...] On the other hand, as the Brexit result demonstrates there are distinct problems to be addressed amongst the white working class with strong feelings of abandonment and powerlessness leading, with the aid of Boris porkies, to a scapegoating of immigrants and of the EU. Again, I'd argue that the current Labour leadership, with their commitment to fight austerity, are well placed to reach out to those whose lives and communities have been all but being destroyed by cuts, low pay (and no pay), privatisation and casualisation of Tory and Labour governments of recent years and before that the decimation of industry by the Thatcher government.
Corbyn can commit himself to putting money where his mouth is when he says that immigration is not the cause of people's social and economic desperation.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Corbyn, [...] has not taken union membership support for granted, and has shown himself able to reach out and demonstrate that he would open spaces in politics for the disenfranchised and ensure they had a voice. As a result, he has re-engaged hundreds of thousands of young people.
[...] On the other hand, as the Brexit result demonstrates there are distinct problems to be addressed amongst the white working class with strong feelings of abandonment and powerlessness leading, with the aid of Boris porkies, to a scapegoating of immigrants and of the EU. Again, I'd argue that the current Labour leadership, with their commitment to fight austerity, are well placed to reach out to those whose lives and communities have been all but being destroyed by cuts, low pay (and no pay), privatisation and casualisation of Tory and Labour governments of recent years and before that the decimation of industry by the Thatcher government.
Corbyn can commit himself to putting money where his mouth is when he says that immigration is not the cause of people's social and economic desperation.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:24 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
From the Gove link - "Boles said Gove would not mind “spending two months taking a good thrashing from Theresa ... ""
See. Now you can't get the images out of your head either.
posted by Devonian at 1:28 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
See. Now you can't get the images out of your head either.
posted by Devonian at 1:28 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Leavers voted to leave primarily for immigration issues, so if the only plausible option is the EEA one, then why bother at all? They'll feel ripped off and ignored. Remainers would also feel ripped off and ignored, so literally everyone would lose.
So, yes, absolutely do the leg work of all the committee meetings to find out the possible options for our future, I listened to the rather somber treasury one yesterday, but there are hundreds that need to happen to get a full picture of the actual paths we can walk.
When we have all that, assuming the time spent hasn't already irrevocably hurt our economy, there needs to be a sober conversation in Parliament about which of those options would meet the expectations of the people who voted for the Leave campaign.
With that, we could definitively describe the actual path we're about to walk down as a country, then Parliament should pretend to be adults for once and vote based on what's best for each of their constituencies and say "After talking with my constituents and understanding their reasons for leaving and the realities of the path we have in front of us, I say [YAY/NAY] to signing article 50".
While I'd be sick and horrified if the tally of that vote would be enough to sign Article 50, at least I'd know we made the decision based on tangible knowledge and not just walking into the bleak unknown.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:49 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
So, yes, absolutely do the leg work of all the committee meetings to find out the possible options for our future, I listened to the rather somber treasury one yesterday, but there are hundreds that need to happen to get a full picture of the actual paths we can walk.
When we have all that, assuming the time spent hasn't already irrevocably hurt our economy, there needs to be a sober conversation in Parliament about which of those options would meet the expectations of the people who voted for the Leave campaign.
With that, we could definitively describe the actual path we're about to walk down as a country, then Parliament should pretend to be adults for once and vote based on what's best for each of their constituencies and say "After talking with my constituents and understanding their reasons for leaving and the realities of the path we have in front of us, I say [YAY/NAY] to signing article 50".
While I'd be sick and horrified if the tally of that vote would be enough to sign Article 50, at least I'd know we made the decision based on tangible knowledge and not just walking into the bleak unknown.
posted by Static Vagabond at 1:49 PM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
England engaging in open piracy on the high seas is not admissible under the terms of Article 50. For that, the UK would have to invoke Arrrrticle 50, which is a different process altogether.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:13 PM on July 6, 2016 [38 favorites]
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 2:13 PM on July 6, 2016 [38 favorites]
England engaging in open piracy on the high seas is not admissible under the terms of Article 50. For that, the UK would have to invoke Arrrrticle 50, which is a different process altogether.
You should be proud of yourself for coming up with that.
posted by zutalors! at 2:19 PM on July 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Trade and Investment Minister Mark Price:
Oh, and 2016's Shakespeare? He can't afford university and is working in a call centre in the West Midlands. He also doesn't have a hope of getting anywhere near the BBC or Channel 4 because he's not the right class. Sorry.
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:02 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
I’m optimistic about the future: particularly in helping create a second Elizabethan Golden Age. The first Golden Age was based on peace, prosperity, new trading markets and a flourishing of the arts.I'm sorry. WHAT? The Elizabethan Age was characterised by "peace" and "prosperity"? Yeah, that sounds like a totally legit version of sixteenth-century history that no A-Level history student would have a problem with. No decades of economic stagnation; nothing going on in Ireland or with Spain. Just good times skipping around the maypole with old Queen Bess and her loveable bard, Will. Jesus Christ.
Oh, and 2016's Shakespeare? He can't afford university and is working in a call centre in the West Midlands. He also doesn't have a hope of getting anywhere near the BBC or Channel 4 because he's not the right class. Sorry.
posted by Sonny Jim at 3:02 PM on July 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Actually the 21st century Shakespeare is Akala and he's fucking awesome.
posted by longbaugh at 3:30 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by longbaugh at 3:30 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
The inside of the new issue of Private Eye magazine begins with an assessment of Osborne's tenure as chancellor and its effects:
posted by stop....hammertime at 3:31 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
"GENIUS GEORGE"
"As George Osborne burns the fiscal furniture to keep warm, cutting corporation tax to tax haven levels, whatever happened to his 'long term economic plan'?"
"In 2010 Osborne set out to be the chancellor who reversed the deficit, shrank the state and moved to No 10. Promising to eliminate annual budget shortfalls by 2015, he imposed austerity and cut infrastructure investment. Though he repeatedly deferred the date for returning to the black - first to 2018, then to 2020 - he could at least claim he had cut the deficit and the 'long term economic plan' was working."
"In 2015, the electorate fell for it. A Tory victory then emboldened Osborne to write his fanciful plans for a surplus into law - but fatefully also secured the EU referendum that would destroy them."
"What growth there had been by 23 June 2016 came thanks to increased household borrowing and cheap foreign labour. With investment starved, despite historically low borrowing costs, living standards flat-lined. Public services were stretched, then cut, while immigration had to rise to keep the economy afloat. When voting day came, disaffected working class voters gave those they blamed for administering this medicine a kicking."
"Amid universal predictions of economic gloom, Osborne has now scrapped deficit targets and conceded that more borrowing is needed (all the greater given the corporation tax cuts). Politically driven deficit reduction has ended in abject failure and dumped Britain out of the EU. With EU trading partners intent on revenge pour encourager les autres - and likely unimpressed with Britain now positioning itself as Europe's largest tax haven - 'bleak' - would be an optimistic word to describe the country's economic future and history's verdict on Osborne's chancellorship."I would also like to thank everyone contributing to this and the other referendum thread - reading all your comments has proven fascinating and soothing in equal measure.
posted by stop....hammertime at 3:31 PM on July 6, 2016 [8 favorites]
Leavers voted to leave primarily for immigration issues, so if the only plausible option is the EEA one, then why bother at all? They'll feel ripped off and ignored. Remainers would also feel ripped off and ignored, so literally everyone would lose.
But we'd have Taken Back Control! Which means... uh... erm...
Agreed, anyway, and God only knows how we're going to get out of this one without that feeling of resentment exploding into something really nasty on a widespread level. Already there's a weird kind of doubling down going on in a lot of discussions about Brexit: rise in hate crimes? No, that's not really happening! Pound falling? It's just a minor blip, it doesn't even matter! Investors pulling out of the UK? Ah, they all talk like that when they've been shaken up, they won't go, it'll all settle down. Prospect of coming out of whatever negotiations we have with the EU in a much worse position than we are now? No, no, we're strong and powerful, the EU needs us far more than we need them, they'll fold, I'm sure that 'free movement of people' thing is optional. Less money in development funds for your area? No, not a problem, we'll have all this cash left over from our EU payment, we'll be rolling in it! And we weren't lied to because we never even believed that £350m-for-the-NHS claim in the place, and we weren't let down because we didn't even want a plan anyway, and all the the other EU countries will be following us before you know it, and it'll all be fine very soon now, just you wait and see, we'll be rich again, we'll be powerful again...
I am not ruling out that they all know something I don't? But, honestly, it feels like that point where Wile E. Coyote is running over the edge of a cliff and his legs keep going in thin air. At some point we will realise where we are, and we will plummet and crash.
What's that even going to look like?
posted by Catseye at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
But we'd have Taken Back Control! Which means... uh... erm...
Agreed, anyway, and God only knows how we're going to get out of this one without that feeling of resentment exploding into something really nasty on a widespread level. Already there's a weird kind of doubling down going on in a lot of discussions about Brexit: rise in hate crimes? No, that's not really happening! Pound falling? It's just a minor blip, it doesn't even matter! Investors pulling out of the UK? Ah, they all talk like that when they've been shaken up, they won't go, it'll all settle down. Prospect of coming out of whatever negotiations we have with the EU in a much worse position than we are now? No, no, we're strong and powerful, the EU needs us far more than we need them, they'll fold, I'm sure that 'free movement of people' thing is optional. Less money in development funds for your area? No, not a problem, we'll have all this cash left over from our EU payment, we'll be rolling in it! And we weren't lied to because we never even believed that £350m-for-the-NHS claim in the place, and we weren't let down because we didn't even want a plan anyway, and all the the other EU countries will be following us before you know it, and it'll all be fine very soon now, just you wait and see, we'll be rich again, we'll be powerful again...
I am not ruling out that they all know something I don't? But, honestly, it feels like that point where Wile E. Coyote is running over the edge of a cliff and his legs keep going in thin air. At some point we will realise where we are, and we will plummet and crash.
What's that even going to look like?
posted by Catseye at 3:37 PM on July 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
Feminism Around the World: Women Respond to “Brexit”
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:06 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:06 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Leavers voted to leave primarily for immigration issues, so if the only plausible option is the EEA one, then why bother at all? They'll feel ripped off and ignored. Remainers would also feel ripped off and ignored, so literally everyone would lose.
Is there any alternative that doesn't result in UKIP/actual fascists gaining real political power? If the UK does pull the lever, but only to EEA and all the immigrants stay...UKIP wins on the backs of "we voted all you lot out, why are you still here?". If they don't...UKIP still wins after the leave vote is ignored. No one has yet articulated any other scenario, least of all Labour. Other than the breakup of the UK, I guess, which actually seems like the most likely scenario right now from afar.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:29 PM on July 6, 2016
Is there any alternative that doesn't result in UKIP/actual fascists gaining real political power? If the UK does pull the lever, but only to EEA and all the immigrants stay...UKIP wins on the backs of "we voted all you lot out, why are you still here?". If they don't...UKIP still wins after the leave vote is ignored. No one has yet articulated any other scenario, least of all Labour. Other than the breakup of the UK, I guess, which actually seems like the most likely scenario right now from afar.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:29 PM on July 6, 2016
If the UK does pull the lever
Well, back it all up! that's the immediate question.
Who gets to... pull the lever? The PM? Parliament? Has it already been pulled as a result of the Brexit referendum vote? Does there need to be a general election?
On the Europe side, who accepts the legitimacy of the lever-pulling? And is able to begin the process of recalibrating the European project based on this new situation?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 PM on July 6, 2016
Well, back it all up! that's the immediate question.
Who gets to... pull the lever? The PM? Parliament? Has it already been pulled as a result of the Brexit referendum vote? Does there need to be a general election?
On the Europe side, who accepts the legitimacy of the lever-pulling? And is able to begin the process of recalibrating the European project based on this new situation?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:51 PM on July 6, 2016
Who gets to... pull the lever? The PM? Parliament? Has it already been pulled as a result of the Brexit referendum vote? Does there need to be a general election?
On the Europe side, who accepts the legitimacy of the lever-pulling? And is able to begin the process of recalibrating the European project based on this new situation?
Nobody really put any thought into it because everyone assumed that the people of a country wouldn't be so fucking stupid.
But here we are. So now we have to wing it a bit, run it by constitutional lawyers and judges to make sure we're following the law in lieu of any written procedure.
posted by Talez at 8:54 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the Europe side, who accepts the legitimacy of the lever-pulling? And is able to begin the process of recalibrating the European project based on this new situation?
Nobody really put any thought into it because everyone assumed that the people of a country wouldn't be so fucking stupid.
But here we are. So now we have to wing it a bit, run it by constitutional lawyers and judges to make sure we're following the law in lieu of any written procedure.
posted by Talez at 8:54 PM on July 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah. Obviously there is an important elite/popular split here. But I think there is also a philosophical legalist civil/common law split here that everyone did not think would be a problem when the EU was being set up.
It's a problem.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:01 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a problem.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:01 PM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
"But I think there is also a philosophical legalist civil/common law split here that everyone did not think would be a problem when the EU was being set up."
I was actually a student studying the EU (while abroad in the UK) shortly after the Maastricht Treaty morphed it into the EU and then during the creation of the Euro, and this was one of the commonest English-language scholar/lawyer/expert discussions (the compatibility or lack thereof of civil and common law systems and their views on rights, bureaucracy, and executive power particularly) and was quite frequently highlighted as potentially problematic or even a failure point for the EU. (In fact the debate helped spur my long term interest in philosophical differences between European comon and civil law countries and their colonial offspring, an interest I've followed through American law, theology grad school, casual ongoing reading, and so on.)
Anyway a lot of very smart people highlighted this 30 years ago and it has always made me (as a mere outside observer and student whose opinion counts for exactly nil) rather nervous, especially when nobody talks about it. (I also think, though, that the ship kinda sailed with the creation of the Euro and even though the UK didn't join, that was really the last realistic chance to say "hang on, our systems are just too incompatible" without utter catastrophe. Staying in then has always seemed like an implicit agreement to learn to live with the civil law regime, at least to me. Once the Euro existed, everything became way too intertwined for anyone to leave at all gracefully.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:20 PM on July 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
I was actually a student studying the EU (while abroad in the UK) shortly after the Maastricht Treaty morphed it into the EU and then during the creation of the Euro, and this was one of the commonest English-language scholar/lawyer/expert discussions (the compatibility or lack thereof of civil and common law systems and their views on rights, bureaucracy, and executive power particularly) and was quite frequently highlighted as potentially problematic or even a failure point for the EU. (In fact the debate helped spur my long term interest in philosophical differences between European comon and civil law countries and their colonial offspring, an interest I've followed through American law, theology grad school, casual ongoing reading, and so on.)
Anyway a lot of very smart people highlighted this 30 years ago and it has always made me (as a mere outside observer and student whose opinion counts for exactly nil) rather nervous, especially when nobody talks about it. (I also think, though, that the ship kinda sailed with the creation of the Euro and even though the UK didn't join, that was really the last realistic chance to say "hang on, our systems are just too incompatible" without utter catastrophe. Staying in then has always seemed like an implicit agreement to learn to live with the civil law regime, at least to me. Once the Euro existed, everything became way too intertwined for anyone to leave at all gracefully.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:20 PM on July 6, 2016 [14 favorites]
Huu... huh. Yeah. That's my feeling too.
There has been this longing, an important and deeply known longing that Europe be bound in bonds of peace that cannot break.
On the other side of the Atlantic we Americans are contemplating the same question: whether this experiment will long endure.
we'll see.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:56 PM on July 6, 2016
There has been this longing, an important and deeply known longing that Europe be bound in bonds of peace that cannot break.
On the other side of the Atlantic we Americans are contemplating the same question: whether this experiment will long endure.
we'll see.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:56 PM on July 6, 2016
"I’m afraid there is no plan. I’m afraid there is Oliver Letwin."
Looks like you might be even worse off than you thought.
posted by effbot at 3:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Looks like you might be even worse off than you thought.
posted by effbot at 3:33 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Continuing the driving of traffic to Parliamentary videos, who wants to see Oliver Letwin (head of the Brexit Unit at the Cabinet Office) give evidence to the Foreign Affairs select committee?
Just so long as you're not looking for reassurance.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just so long as you're not looking for reassurance.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:38 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Things that might conceivably save us now:
- The Peasants' Revolt of 1381.
- King James IV of Scotland winning the Battle of Flodden.
- A new Sisters of Mercy Album.
@Eyebrows McGee
Would you by any chance know a good place to read up on this "the compatibility or lack thereof of civil and common law systems and their views on rights, bureaucracy, and executive power particularly"? (Ideally from a Layman's perspective.)
It sounds very interesting, but I don't think I'm understanding the significance of it.
posted by stop....hammertime at 5:22 AM on July 7, 2016
Would you by any chance know a good place to read up on this "the compatibility or lack thereof of civil and common law systems and their views on rights, bureaucracy, and executive power particularly"? (Ideally from a Layman's perspective.)
It sounds very interesting, but I don't think I'm understanding the significance of it.
posted by stop....hammertime at 5:22 AM on July 7, 2016
I kept expecting Letwin to describe something as “Difficult difficult, lemon difficult” in that Foreign Affairs select committee video. Youse are so fucked with him in charge.
posted by scruss at 5:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by scruss at 5:57 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I wish the politicians and media would stop referring to the 17m who voted Leave, what about those (ahem) 1-2m Bregretters? They don't want to be held responsible for this mess.
Also, they should be referring to the referendum as the advisory referendum, or the non-binding referendum.
And I'd like a pony
posted by asok at 6:20 AM on July 7, 2016
Also, they should be referring to the referendum as the advisory referendum, or the non-binding referendum.
And I'd like a pony
posted by asok at 6:20 AM on July 7, 2016
I think it would be interesting times to have Female leaders across almost every party.
Natalie Bennet (probably becoming Lucas+Bartley),
Nicola Sturgeon,
Angela Eagle (although I'd prefer to stick with their current one),
Theresa May or Angela Leadsom,
Leanne Wood
The Lib Dems don't have any female MPs though, so, I guess they have to stick with Farron.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:30 AM on July 7, 2016
Natalie Bennet (probably becoming Lucas+Bartley),
Nicola Sturgeon,
Angela Eagle (although I'd prefer to stick with their current one),
Theresa May or Angela Leadsom,
Leanne Wood
The Lib Dems don't have any female MPs though, so, I guess they have to stick with Farron.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:30 AM on July 7, 2016
Yes, a pony! Didn't the Brexiters promise that everyone would get a pony if Leave won?
posted by klausness at 6:53 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by klausness at 6:53 AM on July 7, 2016
"The first Golden Age was based on peace, prosperity, new trading markets and a flourishing of the arts."
Ah yes, the 'new trading markets' of the Elizabethan era. Also known as slave-based sugar plantations in the Caribbean and the colonization of India and Bangladesh.
posted by jedicus at 7:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Ah yes, the 'new trading markets' of the Elizabethan era. Also known as slave-based sugar plantations in the Caribbean and the colonization of India and Bangladesh.
posted by jedicus at 7:03 AM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Our new trade agreements will be mostly triangular.
posted by Devonian at 7:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 7:06 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Andrea Leadsom is truly nuts.
Q: You said in your speech this morning you want tariff-free trade with the EU. That means being in the single market, doesn’t it?
No, says Leadsom. She does not accept that.
posted by MattWPBS at 7:31 AM on July 7, 2016
Q: You said in your speech this morning you want tariff-free trade with the EU. That means being in the single market, doesn’t it?
No, says Leadsom. She does not accept that.
posted by MattWPBS at 7:31 AM on July 7, 2016
Didn't the Brexiters promise that everyone would get a pony if Leave won?
I believe the exact phrase is "peace, prosperity, ponies and pirates for all the people"
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I believe the exact phrase is "peace, prosperity, ponies and pirates for all the people"
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:35 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Didn't the Brexiters promise that everyone would get a pony if Leave won?
Be patient, this might be the job pb was promoted to.
posted by Rumple at 7:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Be patient, this might be the job pb was promoted to.
posted by Rumple at 7:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
So you're saying that it stood for Pony Brexit all along?
posted by Etrigan at 7:58 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:58 AM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
It sounds very interesting, but I don't think I'm understanding the significance of it.
I am, Iike you, merely an interested layperson; but I think the crux of the problem here is that common law legal culture sees legitimacy as primarily resting on the accumulated judgements of judges, legal scholars and, well, that which is the common reasoning of the ordinary person. The basic mindset is "when a specific problem comes up we will decide what the right remedy is, and if it turns out that decision has unintended consequences we will deal with them as they arise." Whereas civil law legal culture going back to Justinian (the historical figure, not the Mefite -- I THINK?) tries to anticipate most of the potential problems through positive legislation, which is seen as the primary source of legitimacy.
Obviously these are extreme poles and, for instance, the US has a strong civil law tendency with its revered written Constitution but its criminal law system is mostly rooted in common law.
Where this tension comes to bear on the immediate international crisis that is Brexit is, in my mind, that the EU has, in good Continental Civil Law order, established procedures for leaving which include a decision being made in accordance with the leaving member state's constitutional requirements.
But the UK has no written Constitution or basic law! There is nothing that you can open up and look at in terms of this. The Book just doesn't exist because the common-law sentiment is that things will be dealt with on an ad-hoc basis.
And this is why the referendum was such a horrible idea. David Cameron idiotically established a second and coequally legitimate source of constitutional legitimacy beside the traditional supremacy of Parliament and the legal conventions of the common law -- that of the Voice of the People expressed through one vote on one particular day.
The people who are running things are now not sure what the legitimate (in a strict sense, and also in the more nebulous sense of democratic legitimacy) course of action is. That's why no one with any sense wants to drink from the poisoned chalice which is currently sitting on a table in 10 Downing Street.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
I am, Iike you, merely an interested layperson; but I think the crux of the problem here is that common law legal culture sees legitimacy as primarily resting on the accumulated judgements of judges, legal scholars and, well, that which is the common reasoning of the ordinary person. The basic mindset is "when a specific problem comes up we will decide what the right remedy is, and if it turns out that decision has unintended consequences we will deal with them as they arise." Whereas civil law legal culture going back to Justinian (the historical figure, not the Mefite -- I THINK?) tries to anticipate most of the potential problems through positive legislation, which is seen as the primary source of legitimacy.
Obviously these are extreme poles and, for instance, the US has a strong civil law tendency with its revered written Constitution but its criminal law system is mostly rooted in common law.
Where this tension comes to bear on the immediate international crisis that is Brexit is, in my mind, that the EU has, in good Continental Civil Law order, established procedures for leaving which include a decision being made in accordance with the leaving member state's constitutional requirements.
But the UK has no written Constitution or basic law! There is nothing that you can open up and look at in terms of this. The Book just doesn't exist because the common-law sentiment is that things will be dealt with on an ad-hoc basis.
And this is why the referendum was such a horrible idea. David Cameron idiotically established a second and coequally legitimate source of constitutional legitimacy beside the traditional supremacy of Parliament and the legal conventions of the common law -- that of the Voice of the People expressed through one vote on one particular day.
The people who are running things are now not sure what the legitimate (in a strict sense, and also in the more nebulous sense of democratic legitimacy) course of action is. That's why no one with any sense wants to drink from the poisoned chalice which is currently sitting on a table in 10 Downing Street.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:13 AM on July 7, 2016 [19 favorites]
Liz Truss has been telling people that she wants to protect the 74 food names for UK produce currently protected by the EU. Who's going to police that? How big a budget will the pasty police have to roam the world threatening non-sanctioned pasty producers?
If the food names are not protected in the EU what is to stop anyone anywhere from making a pasty and selling it in the EU? No wonder the Cornish Pasty Association want to stay in the EU!
How much does the food industry matter to the economy?
'Worth £80bn a year and employing 400,000 people, it is our largest manufacturing sector and a big exporter and importer.'
From the 'Britain's meal ticket' link upthread.
posted by asok at 8:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
If the food names are not protected in the EU what is to stop anyone anywhere from making a pasty and selling it in the EU? No wonder the Cornish Pasty Association want to stay in the EU!
How much does the food industry matter to the economy?
'Worth £80bn a year and employing 400,000 people, it is our largest manufacturing sector and a big exporter and importer.'
From the 'Britain's meal ticket' link upthread.
posted by asok at 8:19 AM on July 7, 2016 [8 favorites]
Can I make the point that it now seems we have to hope that Theresa May and Michael Gove win the most votes in this round of the Tory party leadership race.
That's the least bad option now.
Theresa May and Michael Gove.
Let that sink in.
Theresa May. Michael Gove.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's the least bad option now.
Theresa May and Michael Gove.
Let that sink in.
Theresa May. Michael Gove.
posted by MattWPBS at 8:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
The insistence by public officials that they will press on with leaving rather than accept reality continues to leave me gob smacked, Today it seems that the UK's predictions of budget surplus by 2020 are in shambles, meaning that more austerity will be required. On top of that your national humiliation continues with France overtaking the UK to claim the spot at 5th largest economy. All this over a crisis that could be fixed quickly with a simple vote in the House of Commons.
posted by humanfont at 8:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 8:26 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Gove is knocked out of the leadership ballot:
The result of the MPs vote was:
Michael Gove - 46
Andrea Leadsom - 84
Theresa May - 199
Hope you all enjoyed the internet while we had access to it!
posted by asok at 8:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
The result of the MPs vote was:
Michael Gove - 46
Andrea Leadsom - 84
Theresa May - 199
Hope you all enjoyed the internet while we had access to it!
posted by asok at 8:28 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, interesting tivalasvegas! Word, humanfront. What is the problem with simply listing all the incredibly negative things that leaving the EU would mean and saying, that's a shit idea, let's not.
We are not up shit creek without a paddle, but those with paddles are almost all ignoring them and doing anything other than working together to get upstream. It's not even a fast flowing creek!
posted by asok at 8:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
We are not up shit creek without a paddle, but those with paddles are almost all ignoring them and doing anything other than working together to get upstream. It's not even a fast flowing creek!
posted by asok at 8:34 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Theresa May. Michael Gove.
You know, as an American I think we usually look across the pond and think "hey our British cousins mostly have their act together, they're relatively sensible and urbane, etc. compared to our idiot politicians
But then sometimes I actually wikipedia some of the names of your supposed leaders and I'm like "what the hell, they said what? they did what? that would not even fly here and we have a pretty low bar."
In conclusion, facepalm headdesk shrug emoticon bewilderment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
You know, as an American I think we usually look across the pond and think "hey our British cousins mostly have their act together, they're relatively sensible and urbane, etc. compared to our idiot politicians
But then sometimes I actually wikipedia some of the names of your supposed leaders and I'm like "what the hell, they said what? they did what? that would not even fly here and we have a pretty low bar."
In conclusion, facepalm headdesk shrug emoticon bewilderment.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:39 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Today it seems that the UK's predictions of budget surplus by 2020 are in shambles, meaning that more austerity will be required.
That was Monday's crisis I think? Today is Gibraltar Piracy & Cornish Pasty Labeling Crisis Day.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:41 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
That was Monday's crisis I think? Today is Gibraltar Piracy & Cornish Pasty Labeling Crisis Day.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:41 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hope you all enjoyed the internet while we had access to it!
It ain't over yet.
The tory grassroots get to decide who will be the next PM.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:45 AM on July 7, 2016
It ain't over yet.
The tory grassroots get to decide who will be the next PM.
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:45 AM on July 7, 2016
You know, as an American I think we usually look across the pond and think "hey our British cousins mostly have their act together, they're relatively sensible and urbane, etc. compared to our idiot politicians
Yes, a lot of my fellow Americans are having their last remaining illusions about the UK shattered.
It is paradoxical since much of the Leave vote was I think based on the idea of making GB great again. The exact opposite has occurred and people in Europe and in the US have been busy rapidly revising their estimation of the country and its politics.
posted by vacapinta at 8:46 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, a lot of my fellow Americans are having their last remaining illusions about the UK shattered.
It is paradoxical since much of the Leave vote was I think based on the idea of making GB great again. The exact opposite has occurred and people in Europe and in the US have been busy rapidly revising their estimation of the country and its politics.
posted by vacapinta at 8:46 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
You know, as an American I think we usually look across the pond and think "hey our British cousins mostly have their act together, they're relatively sensible and urbane, etc. compared to our idiot politicians
On the other hand, they've still got a lock on the best villains.
posted by Etrigan at 8:50 AM on July 7, 2016
On the other hand, they've still got a lock on the best villains.
posted by Etrigan at 8:50 AM on July 7, 2016
"hey our British cousins mostly have their act together, they're relatively sensible and urbane, etc. compared to our idiot politicians"
Better constitution. You do very well given the bad system you've been lumbered with by your revolutionary forebears, I must say: better than we would.
Anyway, it's all gone to shit because we've suddenly started having referendums, which are a nasty foreign Bonapartist import. The Fixed Term Parliament Bollocks doesn't help either. So chaos follows.
posted by alasdair at 8:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Better constitution. You do very well given the bad system you've been lumbered with by your revolutionary forebears, I must say: better than we would.
Anyway, it's all gone to shit because we've suddenly started having referendums, which are a nasty foreign Bonapartist import. The Fixed Term Parliament Bollocks doesn't help either. So chaos follows.
posted by alasdair at 8:52 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have often dreamed of the UK getting its shit together and being a light among the nations, to give others an example to heed and to help direct them. As patriotic ambitions go, I think it's defensible.
I didn't realise we could have the same effect by blowing our shit apart.
I hope you're taking notes.
Be careful what you wish for.
posted by Devonian at 8:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I didn't realise we could have the same effect by blowing our shit apart.
I hope you're taking notes.
Be careful what you wish for.
posted by Devonian at 8:53 AM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
I keep feeling like we're in the first few minutes of Shaun of the Dead. You know, when they're sitting around bitching about chores or whatever and quietly in the background there is a newscast showing weird people shambling around somewhere but the pieces aren't put together yet.
My intuition is that this -- and the Trump / neofascist crisis here in the US, and the ongoing trash fire that is the Eastern Mediterranean and southwestern Asia, and the re-eruption of nationalisms that were supposed to be over with the end of history --
That much of the problem is at root that technology and the infrastructure that enables global communication and mass migration has run ahead of the legal international infrastructure. To put it more bluntly, people are talking to each other and doing business together and sending money here and there and moving all around the world but there isn't a body of law (or agreed custom) that can manage all that movement. So we are ending up with all these unique and yet interrelated crises.
How do we fix it?
I think it either ends up being a UN-with-teeth or a neoliberal global elite class with a few billion peons. Or, you know, it could be both.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
My intuition is that this -- and the Trump / neofascist crisis here in the US, and the ongoing trash fire that is the Eastern Mediterranean and southwestern Asia, and the re-eruption of nationalisms that were supposed to be over with the end of history --
That much of the problem is at root that technology and the infrastructure that enables global communication and mass migration has run ahead of the legal international infrastructure. To put it more bluntly, people are talking to each other and doing business together and sending money here and there and moving all around the world but there isn't a body of law (or agreed custom) that can manage all that movement. So we are ending up with all these unique and yet interrelated crises.
How do we fix it?
I think it either ends up being a UN-with-teeth or a neoliberal global elite class with a few billion peons. Or, you know, it could be both.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Computers and chocolate set to get pricier after Brexit vote
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2016
Anyway, it's all gone to shit because we've suddenly started having referendums, which are a nasty foreign Bonapartist import. The Fixed Term Parliament Bollocks doesn't help either. So chaos follows.Gerrymandering, five-year fixed-term parliaments, Tories and Liberal Democrats living together. Mass hysteria.
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Loathsome could be the Conservatives' Corbyn. FTFT:
posted by Quagkapi at 9:00 AM on July 7, 2016
Ideological purity has become the most important asset in leftwing British politics... The Conservative party could be about to make the same mistake.ConservativeHome put her just ahead of May in a recent members' poll.
posted by Quagkapi at 9:00 AM on July 7, 2016
The only silver lining is seeing the Gove/Vine ticket go down in flames.
How is it that I am already viewing the raddled prefect Cameron with nostalgia?
posted by Rumple at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
How is it that I am already viewing the raddled prefect Cameron with nostalgia?
posted by Rumple at 9:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
That much of the problem is at root that technology and the infrastructure that enables global communication and mass migration has run ahead of the legal international infrastructure. To put it more bluntly, people are talking to each other and doing business together and sending money here and there and moving all around the world but there isn't a body of law (or agreed custom) that can manage all that movement. So we are ending up with all these unique and yet interrelated crises.This is such a great point. And the parallels with the first era of globalization, which came to a crashing halt in the global catastrophe of August 1914, are so chilling. That was another period in which capital market integration, the free movement of people from one state to another, and global interconnectedness ran well ahead of, as you put it, the international political and "legal infrastructure." And let's not even mention the parallels between the global arms race leading up to 1914 and ... well, our own quietly building military rivalries, shall we?
posted by Sonny Jim at 9:11 AM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Better constitution. You do very well given the bad system you've been lumbered with by your revolutionary forebears, I must say: better than we would.
Our constitution is basically a written-down, frozen-in-time version of your constitution circa about 1780, with an elected president in place of the monarch of course.
It has been riddled with workarounds for the last 80 years or so and is seriously due for an upgrade. Unfortunately I am not entirely convinced that any upgrade will end up being better due to the absolute lunacy of a good chunk of American voters. So mostly we are just lumbering along and being furious about the fact that for example our rules apparently mean that people are allowed to walk around with fucking assault weapons and nothing can be done about it even though thousands of us are shot dead every year.
But sorry, this is the Brexit thread and I'm derailing it. Please return to your regularly scheduled UK-flavoured crisis.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:49 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Our constitution is basically a written-down, frozen-in-time version of your constitution circa about 1780, with an elected president in place of the monarch of course.
It has been riddled with workarounds for the last 80 years or so and is seriously due for an upgrade. Unfortunately I am not entirely convinced that any upgrade will end up being better due to the absolute lunacy of a good chunk of American voters. So mostly we are just lumbering along and being furious about the fact that for example our rules apparently mean that people are allowed to walk around with fucking assault weapons and nothing can be done about it even though thousands of us are shot dead every year.
But sorry, this is the Brexit thread and I'm derailing it. Please return to your regularly scheduled UK-flavoured crisis.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:49 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Technically it's uncodified rather than unwritten. Plenty of it is written down, just not in any one central agreed-upon document.
And I now have an excuse to share my favourite story on this subject, so:
And I now have an excuse to share my favourite story on this subject, so:
A declaration of war against Argentina was considered over what one might call the “Falklands weekend” in the first days of April 1982 and the 1939 file on how to do it was sent for. It could not be found. A search was mounted in what was then called the Public Record Office. Still no file was found. It turned up 12 years later in 1994. It was just two sides of paper, drawn up for the Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, by the Foreign Office’s legal adviser, Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice, on the day of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, 23 August 1939. On 12 September 1939, it had been consigned to the FO’s registry in a collection known as “General and Miscellaneous” and therefore lost for 55 years.posted by Catseye at 10:02 AM on July 7, 2016 [24 favorites]
"Would you by any chance know a good place to read up on this "the compatibility or lack thereof of civil and common law systems and their views on rights, bureaucracy, and executive power particularly"? (Ideally from a Layman's perspective.) It sounds very interesting, but I don't think I'm understanding the significance of it."
Unfortunately I don't because my interests went haring off into the differential development of theologies of truth within Christianity on the continent and the island, but in addition to what tivalasvegas said, for example, freedom of speech and religion in the UK (and therefore the US) rests on a theoretical basis that free thought -- even wrong thought -- is necessary to discover truth and necessary to avoid compelling the consciences of others. In Civil Law systems, free religion and speech comes largely out of national governments saying, "Okay we really fucking need all you Catholic and Protestants to stop killing each other over this, free speech and religion is necessary to the security and peace of the state and its citizens." So rights in common law countries are often understood as inherent in the individual and rising up from them; in civil law countries they're more often understood as granted by the state. Now, in general, the outcomes are the same, but they can vary on the margins -- for example, continental European laws that forbid Holocaust denial because that form of free speech is harmful to the state. Whereas US/UK law views suppression of even bad speech as harmful to the body politic, so this is a very hard sort of decision to justify in common law thought.
Civil law systems in general are more deferential to experts -- judges, expert witnesses, scientific witnesses -- than common law systems, which place a premium on being allowed to challenge experts. So just temperamentally, people who've grown up in civil law countries are more likely to think of the state executive and the state bureaucracy as trustworthy experts who understand complex things better than the average person; common law country folks are more likely to see them as impediments to the full exercise of freedom and to be suspicious of "expert" or "technocratic" rulings that amount to the elite telling the common folk what to do. (And this is one of the very curious things about Americans to many Europeans, is that they will follow any damn fuckin' stupid law in the world as long as they feel they have had adequate chance to complain about it. As long as the process includes the part where regular people get to complain bitterly about how the experts are dumb, Americans will submit to even terrible laws/rulings/judgments as well-formed. The complaining itself, rather than the outcome of a different law, is often the point of the exercise, which may be why it's tough to get Americans to engage in street protests, and Americans don't typically expect street protests or strikes to lead to actual change.)
Anyway, that leads to some pretty fundamental differences in attitudes towards state power and rights. Even if the outcomes are the same most of the time, both sides feel pretty uneasy about the other side's process of getting to that outcome. And there's a lot of research that suggests our attitudes towards the legitimacy of the process strongly influence whether we feel our governments are "fair."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:12 AM on July 7, 2016 [29 favorites]
Unfortunately I don't because my interests went haring off into the differential development of theologies of truth within Christianity on the continent and the island, but in addition to what tivalasvegas said, for example, freedom of speech and religion in the UK (and therefore the US) rests on a theoretical basis that free thought -- even wrong thought -- is necessary to discover truth and necessary to avoid compelling the consciences of others. In Civil Law systems, free religion and speech comes largely out of national governments saying, "Okay we really fucking need all you Catholic and Protestants to stop killing each other over this, free speech and religion is necessary to the security and peace of the state and its citizens." So rights in common law countries are often understood as inherent in the individual and rising up from them; in civil law countries they're more often understood as granted by the state. Now, in general, the outcomes are the same, but they can vary on the margins -- for example, continental European laws that forbid Holocaust denial because that form of free speech is harmful to the state. Whereas US/UK law views suppression of even bad speech as harmful to the body politic, so this is a very hard sort of decision to justify in common law thought.
Civil law systems in general are more deferential to experts -- judges, expert witnesses, scientific witnesses -- than common law systems, which place a premium on being allowed to challenge experts. So just temperamentally, people who've grown up in civil law countries are more likely to think of the state executive and the state bureaucracy as trustworthy experts who understand complex things better than the average person; common law country folks are more likely to see them as impediments to the full exercise of freedom and to be suspicious of "expert" or "technocratic" rulings that amount to the elite telling the common folk what to do. (And this is one of the very curious things about Americans to many Europeans, is that they will follow any damn fuckin' stupid law in the world as long as they feel they have had adequate chance to complain about it. As long as the process includes the part where regular people get to complain bitterly about how the experts are dumb, Americans will submit to even terrible laws/rulings/judgments as well-formed. The complaining itself, rather than the outcome of a different law, is often the point of the exercise, which may be why it's tough to get Americans to engage in street protests, and Americans don't typically expect street protests or strikes to lead to actual change.)
Anyway, that leads to some pretty fundamental differences in attitudes towards state power and rights. Even if the outcomes are the same most of the time, both sides feel pretty uneasy about the other side's process of getting to that outcome. And there's a lot of research that suggests our attitudes towards the legitimacy of the process strongly influence whether we feel our governments are "fair."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:12 AM on July 7, 2016 [29 favorites]
my interests went haring off into the differential development of theologies of truth within Christianity on the continent and the island
Eyebrows are you secretly me? You're secretly me, aren't you.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Eyebrows are you secretly me? You're secretly me, aren't you.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:21 AM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
That was Monday's crisis I think? Today is Gibraltar Piracy & Cornish Pasty Labeling Crisis Day.
What is the word for a successive series of daily omnishambleses? Is there an omnishambles calendar we can consult somewhere?
I like "rolling newsmageddon" (from this Guardian column), but perhaps we can do better?
posted by zachlipton at 10:29 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
What is the word for a successive series of daily omnishambleses? Is there an omnishambles calendar we can consult somewhere?
I like "rolling newsmageddon" (from this Guardian column), but perhaps we can do better?
posted by zachlipton at 10:29 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The routine chaos of global post-truthism, I'd call it.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:56 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I like "rolling newsmageddon" (from this Guardian column), but perhaps we can do better?
Chris Morris, your country has never needed you more.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:09 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Chris Morris, your country has never needed you more.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:09 AM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
What is the word for a successive series of daily omnishambleses?
Infinishambles?
posted by Catseye at 12:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Infinishambles?
posted by Catseye at 12:10 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
Chronic shandybumbles.
posted by comealongpole at 12:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by comealongpole at 12:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Omnidict Shamblesnatch
posted by zombieflanders at 12:42 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 12:42 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Eddie Redmayne
posted by Sonny Jim at 12:45 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Sonny Jim at 12:45 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
I like these new words. I would like to offer that at my office, when a new stage of infinishambles occurs, we wish each other "Schmozzletov!".
posted by chapps at 12:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by chapps at 12:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
ouroboroshambles
posted by scruss at 12:50 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by scruss at 12:50 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Five stories buried by Brexit
1. Austerity policies breach the UK’s human rights obligations.
2. Child poverty has spiked.
3. Delayed state pension for hundreds of thousands of women.
4. Children with mental health problems are being denied treatment.
5. The DWP is delaying the release of benefit death reports (again).
posted by adamvasco at 1:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
1. Austerity policies breach the UK’s human rights obligations.
2. Child poverty has spiked.
3. Delayed state pension for hundreds of thousands of women.
4. Children with mental health problems are being denied treatment.
5. The DWP is delaying the release of benefit death reports (again).
posted by adamvasco at 1:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
And I now have an excuse to share my favourite story on this subject, so
In case anyone else was curious about the content of those two sides of paper, here they are.
posted by jedicus at 1:45 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
In case anyone else was curious about the content of those two sides of paper, here they are.
posted by jedicus at 1:45 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
So rights in common law countries are often understood as inherent in the individual and rising up from them; in civil law countries they're more often understood as granted by the state.
My background in law in inexistant, but as a citizen of a civil law country I disagree with the second part of that statement. In democratic civil law countries laws are voted by the parliament and thus represent the will of the people. It's the society, through the mechanism of representation, that grants or revoke rights for its members. Hate speech is a good example, because it was always my understanding that introducing that notion was a decision of my society. For Americans (and possibly for the Brits), it's always the Citizen vs the Government, which is confusing to me.
posted by elgilito at 2:46 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
My background in law in inexistant, but as a citizen of a civil law country I disagree with the second part of that statement. In democratic civil law countries laws are voted by the parliament and thus represent the will of the people. It's the society, through the mechanism of representation, that grants or revoke rights for its members. Hate speech is a good example, because it was always my understanding that introducing that notion was a decision of my society. For Americans (and possibly for the Brits), it's always the Citizen vs the Government, which is confusing to me.
posted by elgilito at 2:46 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
"In democratic civil law countries laws are voted by the parliament and thus represent the will of the people. It's the society, through the mechanism of representation, that grants or revoke rights for its members"
I would agree with that as a statement of today (and I should always say "the state and its citizens" when talking about civil law societies, it's very hard not to use inherently loaded language when it's something so fundamental to how you think, and I didn't do as good a job as I wanted to in that comment!), but as a historical development under mostly still very strong monarchies, they were initially understood as granted by the state (state-as-monarch-as-guardian-of-his-people, if you like) rather than arising out of the will of the people. Self-understanding today is definitely that the state is expressing the will of the citizenry, but the cultural temperament (if we can be so vague) encompasses both current ideas and past history and development ... like, our ideas about ourselves and our governments are relatively path-dependent, I guess. (And definitely you are correct that we common law folks whose political theory is specifically founded on the idea of government of/by/for the people weirdly consider ourselves in a constant adversarial relationship to the government of/by/for us! It's a super-weird thing!)
But also I'm interested in, like, 16th century attitudes towards free religious practice and in 12th century developments in trials-by-jury so possibly I overemphasize the historical attitudes. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would agree with that as a statement of today (and I should always say "the state and its citizens" when talking about civil law societies, it's very hard not to use inherently loaded language when it's something so fundamental to how you think, and I didn't do as good a job as I wanted to in that comment!), but as a historical development under mostly still very strong monarchies, they were initially understood as granted by the state (state-as-monarch-as-guardian-of-his-people, if you like) rather than arising out of the will of the people. Self-understanding today is definitely that the state is expressing the will of the citizenry, but the cultural temperament (if we can be so vague) encompasses both current ideas and past history and development ... like, our ideas about ourselves and our governments are relatively path-dependent, I guess. (And definitely you are correct that we common law folks whose political theory is specifically founded on the idea of government of/by/for the people weirdly consider ourselves in a constant adversarial relationship to the government of/by/for us! It's a super-weird thing!)
But also I'm interested in, like, 16th century attitudes towards free religious practice and in 12th century developments in trials-by-jury so possibly I overemphasize the historical attitudes. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:21 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's the society, through the mechanism of representation, that grants or revoke rights for its members. Hate speech is a good example, because it was always my understanding that introducing that notion was a decision of my society. For Americans (and possibly for the Brits), it's always the Citizen vs the Government, which is confusing to me.
Yeah, that's not how ordinary people in common law jurisdictions conceive of rights at all. Rights are not -- cannot be -- granted by society or by government. They're natural, inalienable, existing before and above law. Sure government can grant you entitlements but that's just program eligibility, not Rights with a capital R.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's not how ordinary people in common law jurisdictions conceive of rights at all. Rights are not -- cannot be -- granted by society or by government. They're natural, inalienable, existing before and above law. Sure government can grant you entitlements but that's just program eligibility, not Rights with a capital R.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thanks for that winterhill.
just take a trip to any of hundreds of towns outside the London and South East bubble.
And therein lies one of the problems with the mainstream media. They don´t go outside their bubble and as you also remark, us tourists (Yes I know I was born a Brit but I left 40 plus years ago seldom to return) don´t often get past the sights and the twee flower beds or have to fight the social service or housing system or take on London´s astronomical rents and thus see how the majority of the UK actually lives.
posted by adamvasco at 4:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
just take a trip to any of hundreds of towns outside the London and South East bubble.
And therein lies one of the problems with the mainstream media. They don´t go outside their bubble and as you also remark, us tourists (Yes I know I was born a Brit but I left 40 plus years ago seldom to return) don´t often get past the sights and the twee flower beds or have to fight the social service or housing system or take on London´s astronomical rents and thus see how the majority of the UK actually lives.
posted by adamvasco at 4:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's my understanding that in Civil Law jurisdictions there is no law outside of the State – except perhaps International Law. That is, if you dissolved the EU and Germany's governmental system collapsed, there would be no legal system in Germany.
In contrast, in Common Law jurisdictions the Common Law is held to exist independently of the government. Statute law (the law made by Parliament/Congress/the Knesset/whatever) overrides Common Law, but if Australia (for instance) revoked the Marriage Act then Common Law marriage would spring back into existence. If there were no government at all then our justice system would still exist, but it would consist of village councils imposing common-law penalties for breaches of the common law.
So there's a very real sense in which statutory law is opposed to the Common Law, and since the Common Law is (conceptually) the pre-existing law that comes from people's comprehension of justice and civil society, you can see how people may think of themselves as being law-abiding but still very opposed to government regulation.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
In contrast, in Common Law jurisdictions the Common Law is held to exist independently of the government. Statute law (the law made by Parliament/Congress/the Knesset/whatever) overrides Common Law, but if Australia (for instance) revoked the Marriage Act then Common Law marriage would spring back into existence. If there were no government at all then our justice system would still exist, but it would consist of village councils imposing common-law penalties for breaches of the common law.
So there's a very real sense in which statutory law is opposed to the Common Law, and since the Common Law is (conceptually) the pre-existing law that comes from people's comprehension of justice and civil society, you can see how people may think of themselves as being law-abiding but still very opposed to government regulation.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:49 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have to say I'm loving the direction this is taking. Let's do Hobbes and Locke!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hobbes, war of all against all. Not even a derail from Brexit really.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
referendums, which are a nasty foreign Bonapartist import.
Could it have gone better if you had taken up the Australian practice of compulsory voting?
posted by Apocryphon at 7:08 PM on July 7, 2016
Could it have gone better if you had taken up the Australian practice of compulsory voting?
posted by Apocryphon at 7:08 PM on July 7, 2016
Well, if compulsory voting had resulted in a Remain victory then yes insofar as this whole discussion would have been moot.
But I think that referendums on major constitutional issues simply do not work in a society that doesn't have awritten codified Constitution at the very least. And even sometimes then -- witness the various fails in California over the years because of their culture of constant referendums. It's just too blunt a tool to use in the tradition-minded, incrementalist political culture of the UK.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
But I think that referendums on major constitutional issues simply do not work in a society that doesn't have a
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
If there were no government at all then our justice system would still exist, but it would consist of village councils imposing common-law penalties for breaches of the common law.
I hate to say it, but that's VERY theoretical. In actual effect, if there were no government at all, there would be no justice system outside the "justice" meted out by mobs and the most powerful gangs in the local area. Think Somalia rather than St. Mary Mead.
Which of course isn't going to stop people from thinking "Well we'll be fine if we didn't have the government."
posted by happyroach at 8:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hate to say it, but that's VERY theoretical. In actual effect, if there were no government at all, there would be no justice system outside the "justice" meted out by mobs and the most powerful gangs in the local area. Think Somalia rather than St. Mary Mead.
Which of course isn't going to stop people from thinking "Well we'll be fine if we didn't have the government."
posted by happyroach at 8:48 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Last time I looked in this was a thread to discuss the situation in Britain, but I'll drop this here anyway: A report from a local Labour party meeting, in the current climate.
posted by Grangousier at 12:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 12:29 AM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
What Grangousier's link describes is both terrible and far too easy to believe at the moment. There's a lot of anger about, and it isn't always expressed in pretty or productive ways.
That being said, I couldn't help but laugh at the monumental lack of self-awareness in:
"He called me a traitor and a conspirator, without even bothering to find out anything about me. If he had, he would know that I voted for Corbyn last year, but have had my reservations and now feel that he’s not the right leader for our party."
So... likely right on the money in his assumptions, then? (Though obviously not in the degree of hyperbole he expressed them with.)
posted by Dysk at 1:00 AM on July 8, 2016
That being said, I couldn't help but laugh at the monumental lack of self-awareness in:
"He called me a traitor and a conspirator, without even bothering to find out anything about me. If he had, he would know that I voted for Corbyn last year, but have had my reservations and now feel that he’s not the right leader for our party."
So... likely right on the money in his assumptions, then? (Though obviously not in the degree of hyperbole he expressed them with.)
posted by Dysk at 1:00 AM on July 8, 2016
I think I'd forgive her the lack of self-awareness, on account of the emotional stress. And she's neither a traitor nor a conspirator, but someone who disagrees with him.
Besides, I think what's meant is that Momentum (who are basically Militant in a new hat) aren't interested in disagreement, but seizing control. Or something like that - they don't really do anything with power when they've got it other than make a lot of noise, and fuck things up for people.
So it's the traditional far left model - an apparently benign old man surrounded by a phalanx of boot boys, sugar coated with cuddly celebs (interestingly many of whom are young women this time - I wonder if they'll find out what happens to them if they disagree with The Leader?)
The Militant factor was one of the main things that kept Kinnock out of office - the Murdoch press could always point to the councils where Militant were in the ascendant and quite justifiably identify chaos and mess and corruption, which they could amplify even further. People don't usually vote for the obviously chaotic (although, sadly, they're more than happy to vote for the chaotic in a smart suit with a posh accent. Which is just a fact of life, and a terrible shame).
The boosted HUGE MEMBERSHIP is much less than the membership before it collapsed in 2010, and a fraction of what it was before 1979, for all sorts of reasons. What's happening at the moment is the same phenomenon as a really strange single getting to #1 during a period of low record sales. The reason the PLP got nervous now is that they actually go out and knock on people's doors and ask them what they think, and it's obvious that Corbyn doesn't play, as it were, in Peoria. At the moment the Corbynites are blaming the PLP for the downturn in Labours poll fortunes, but that's the usual denial. At some point, Labour's numbers are going to drop off a cliff, and it will be interesting to see what happens then.
Actually, what would be really interesting would be if they went through with their threat to expel the 172 from the party altogether, as I don't think it's widely understood that the electorate vote for the MP, not the party.
(The party nominates the candidate, who is elected by the constituency. So the MP represents the constituency, not the local party membership. This is why an MP can cross the floor to another party and take their mandate with them. Any expelled MP would be released from the Labour whip, but would still be the sitting MP until the next election, which might be in a few months or might be in 2020, and could form whatever coalition in Parliament. I get the impression that there are a lot of people who think that they can replace the "Blairite" MP just like that. Democracy works differently from the way people who would lecture you loudly about democracy think it works.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Besides, I think what's meant is that Momentum (who are basically Militant in a new hat) aren't interested in disagreement, but seizing control. Or something like that - they don't really do anything with power when they've got it other than make a lot of noise, and fuck things up for people.
So it's the traditional far left model - an apparently benign old man surrounded by a phalanx of boot boys, sugar coated with cuddly celebs (interestingly many of whom are young women this time - I wonder if they'll find out what happens to them if they disagree with The Leader?)
The Militant factor was one of the main things that kept Kinnock out of office - the Murdoch press could always point to the councils where Militant were in the ascendant and quite justifiably identify chaos and mess and corruption, which they could amplify even further. People don't usually vote for the obviously chaotic (although, sadly, they're more than happy to vote for the chaotic in a smart suit with a posh accent. Which is just a fact of life, and a terrible shame).
The boosted HUGE MEMBERSHIP is much less than the membership before it collapsed in 2010, and a fraction of what it was before 1979, for all sorts of reasons. What's happening at the moment is the same phenomenon as a really strange single getting to #1 during a period of low record sales. The reason the PLP got nervous now is that they actually go out and knock on people's doors and ask them what they think, and it's obvious that Corbyn doesn't play, as it were, in Peoria. At the moment the Corbynites are blaming the PLP for the downturn in Labours poll fortunes, but that's the usual denial. At some point, Labour's numbers are going to drop off a cliff, and it will be interesting to see what happens then.
Actually, what would be really interesting would be if they went through with their threat to expel the 172 from the party altogether, as I don't think it's widely understood that the electorate vote for the MP, not the party.
(The party nominates the candidate, who is elected by the constituency. So the MP represents the constituency, not the local party membership. This is why an MP can cross the floor to another party and take their mandate with them. Any expelled MP would be released from the Labour whip, but would still be the sitting MP until the next election, which might be in a few months or might be in 2020, and could form whatever coalition in Parliament. I get the impression that there are a lot of people who think that they can replace the "Blairite" MP just like that. Democracy works differently from the way people who would lecture you loudly about democracy think it works.)
posted by Grangousier at 1:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
And she's neither a traitor nor a conspirator, but someone who disagrees with him.
Absolutely agree, though in this instance, the (again, rather hyperbolic) use of 'traitor' here is probably in the sense of 'voted for Corbyn, now wants him gone'.
In case this and my previous comments do not make it clear, I do not in any way condone Momentum or its actions, nor those of other demagogues. I'm ambivalent about Corbyn - I just want Labour to get their shit together one way or another and be a credible opposition to the Tories.
posted by Dysk at 1:41 AM on July 8, 2016
Absolutely agree, though in this instance, the (again, rather hyperbolic) use of 'traitor' here is probably in the sense of 'voted for Corbyn, now wants him gone'.
In case this and my previous comments do not make it clear, I do not in any way condone Momentum or its actions, nor those of other demagogues. I'm ambivalent about Corbyn - I just want Labour to get their shit together one way or another and be a credible opposition to the Tories.
posted by Dysk at 1:41 AM on July 8, 2016
Oh, absolutely! I agree with you 100%. I remember the boot boys from last time, though, so I have a bad feeling about this. And no matter how nice JC seems to be, if he's a shibboleth for the agents of chaos then that's an even more pressing reason for him to stand down other than what is perceived as general ineffectiveness.
posted by Grangousier at 1:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 1:51 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Actually, here's someone on Medium putting it much better than I could.
posted by Grangousier at 2:05 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 2:05 AM on July 8, 2016
So Corbyn writes about EU today, and just before he starts talking about what a great leader he is, there's this bit:
posted by effbot at 2:16 AM on July 8, 2016
During the referendum campaign, we argued for an end to EU-enforced liberalisation and privatisation of public services – and for freedom for public enterprise and public investment, now restricted by EU treaties.Does anyone know what exactly this refers to?
posted by effbot at 2:16 AM on July 8, 2016
While it makes some good points, there are some issues with the assumptions underlying the Medium article as well. For example:
"Voters instead rejected Labour because they perceived the Party as anti-austerity lite. 58% agree that, ‘we must live within our means so cutting the deficit is the top priority’. Just 16% disagree. Almost all Tories and a majority of Lib Dems and Ukip voters agreed."
This polling doesn't necessarily represent some immutable right wing essence in the electorate so much as it represents a failure to effectively challenge the political narratives underlying support for austerity (viewing country scale economies as competely analogous to household budgets, no challenge to the underlying assumptions about how austerity would affect growth, etc).
Politics shouldn't be entirely about winning votes for its own sake. What is the point of a Labour party as dedicated to hardline austerity as the Tories? What choice is that?
posted by Dysk at 2:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
"Voters instead rejected Labour because they perceived the Party as anti-austerity lite. 58% agree that, ‘we must live within our means so cutting the deficit is the top priority’. Just 16% disagree. Almost all Tories and a majority of Lib Dems and Ukip voters agreed."
This polling doesn't necessarily represent some immutable right wing essence in the electorate so much as it represents a failure to effectively challenge the political narratives underlying support for austerity (viewing country scale economies as competely analogous to household budgets, no challenge to the underlying assumptions about how austerity would affect growth, etc).
Politics shouldn't be entirely about winning votes for its own sake. What is the point of a Labour party as dedicated to hardline austerity as the Tories? What choice is that?
posted by Dysk at 2:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Back to basics?
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:27 AM on July 8, 2016
It seems to me what the Left needs to do is build up its own, socialist hegemony. We need to build up our own hegemony rooted in people’s everyday experiences and articulated with a ‘socialist common sense’. What does this mean in practice? To me, it means building up a set of solid material institutions which provide a base from which to wage struggles against Capital and the State and simultaneously form the basis of a new society. An infrastructure that can provide shelter and respite from the vagaries of the market and reproduce individuals as ‘socialists’.Plan C
These should include unions and anti-fascist organisations, but also social centres, football clubs, ‘red gyms’, cultural events, and a weatherspoons of the Left; a people’s palace fit for the 21st Century. Places where people can go to act politically but also enjoy themselves, places where people are reproduced as socialists, where the primary logic of the space is not competition and accumulation but solidarity and friendship. For this project to be truly hegemonic, it needs to be expansive and outward looking, always trying to draw people in and never becoming insular and cliquish, as much of the left often does. If basic bonds of solidarity are rebuilt, if communism becomes part of everyday life, we can then start to build up consent and the ability to force through a communist class project.
posted by Mister Bijou at 2:27 AM on July 8, 2016
Politics shouldn't be entirely about winning votes for its own sake.
I absolutely agree with this - I think exactly this is why we're in the current mess: the referendum was all about winning the game, and nothing to do with any coherent policy aim.
On the other hand, what people are expressing is that general opinion is a challenge to our assumptions. An anti-immigration, pro-austerity atmosphere is a symptom of the effects that government policies have had on society: the Mail/Express strategy is to bundle up people's fear and sense of powerlessness and label it Europe or Immigrants or whatever.
However, the underlying problem that it's a symptom of is different from the surface expression - broadly speaking, it's the failure on the right to recognise that the social-democratic institutions (social security, NHS, etc) are not lefty self-indulgences but the framework on which British civil society is built, and by eating away at them what they've done is weaken the load-bearing walls of the social edifice. The challenge is to reframe the debate to address the causes rather than the symptoms. Simply ignoring the symptoms won't make them go away.
My suspicion is that the first step is to gather data that can be used to build a model of what it actually happening, rather than trying to impose one's chosen narrative on what one sees. It seems that there are some people trying to do this, but they don't have much political influence at the moment.
However, I'm not the kind of person who has any solution to anything. The scary thing is neither does anyone else seem to be.
posted by Grangousier at 2:42 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
I absolutely agree with this - I think exactly this is why we're in the current mess: the referendum was all about winning the game, and nothing to do with any coherent policy aim.
On the other hand, what people are expressing is that general opinion is a challenge to our assumptions. An anti-immigration, pro-austerity atmosphere is a symptom of the effects that government policies have had on society: the Mail/Express strategy is to bundle up people's fear and sense of powerlessness and label it Europe or Immigrants or whatever.
However, the underlying problem that it's a symptom of is different from the surface expression - broadly speaking, it's the failure on the right to recognise that the social-democratic institutions (social security, NHS, etc) are not lefty self-indulgences but the framework on which British civil society is built, and by eating away at them what they've done is weaken the load-bearing walls of the social edifice. The challenge is to reframe the debate to address the causes rather than the symptoms. Simply ignoring the symptoms won't make them go away.
My suspicion is that the first step is to gather data that can be used to build a model of what it actually happening, rather than trying to impose one's chosen narrative on what one sees. It seems that there are some people trying to do this, but they don't have much political influence at the moment.
However, I'm not the kind of person who has any solution to anything. The scary thing is neither does anyone else seem to be.
posted by Grangousier at 2:42 AM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Whether it's failings in the NHS, poor health education, or just poverty leading people to be unable to make good health choices it feels like health outcomes are just not happening. Good health is the cornerstone of a productive and positive society and for some reason we're just not doing that.
I have many thoughts on this!
Poverty is bad for people's health, in a huge huge spectrum of ways. And not just poverty directly but all the social/political factors underneath it. Poorer education leads to poorer health. Poorer housing leads to poorer health. Bad life experiences in early childhood lead knock-on effects of worse health over a lifetime. (And obviously, correlations apply to populations rather than people, it's not like individuals will always follow that pattern, but there it is anyway.) And this applies on a broader level, too. So living in damp, overcrowded housing is bad for your health - okay, that's why we had slum clearances. But living near derelict land that's been slum-cleared, that is also bad for your health. Having weaker ties to your local community, and lacking a sense of belonging, those things are bad for your health too.
There is good evidence that how you feel about your life situation affects how likely you are to be healthy. If you feel like you lack control of your life, you lack the ability to predict what will happen next, and you lack a sense of meaning and purpose in your life, you are likely to be more stressed and you are likely to be less resilient to all the negative-health-causing things around you. So, worse health.
So linked to this, we have the bigger-picture issue that being politically engaged (whatever that means to us) as a population is relevant to health. Partly because it means we have a say about the direct factors affecting our lives (less shit housing), and partly because just speaking and getting heard makes a difference to how we feel about our lives. I have this population health publication on my desk at the moment (that I've still not read because it's like 300 pages long but what I have read is fascinating), and this is discussing the idea of 'democratic deficit' and its relevance to health:
So yeah, I think health is very relevant indeed to the current discussion.
Sadly, another aspect of this is that we know what works to reduce these massive inequalities in health between rich and poor areas. But there is much less of a political appetite to do them, because they are all resource-heavy Big Government things: taxation, legislation, finding more equitable ways to distribute power and wealth in society, big structural changes to services and to physical environments. There is much more of an appetite to do things that tackle individual behaviours (leaflets, posters, campaigns that require people to opt-in rather than -out), partly because it's cheaper but partly because it doesn't require such a level of investment at looking and tackling just why things are so unequal health-wise in the first place. Sorry about your shit life, Mr Smith, but here's a leaflet telling you to eat five fruit and veg a day!
posted by Catseye at 3:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have many thoughts on this!
Poverty is bad for people's health, in a huge huge spectrum of ways. And not just poverty directly but all the social/political factors underneath it. Poorer education leads to poorer health. Poorer housing leads to poorer health. Bad life experiences in early childhood lead knock-on effects of worse health over a lifetime. (And obviously, correlations apply to populations rather than people, it's not like individuals will always follow that pattern, but there it is anyway.) And this applies on a broader level, too. So living in damp, overcrowded housing is bad for your health - okay, that's why we had slum clearances. But living near derelict land that's been slum-cleared, that is also bad for your health. Having weaker ties to your local community, and lacking a sense of belonging, those things are bad for your health too.
There is good evidence that how you feel about your life situation affects how likely you are to be healthy. If you feel like you lack control of your life, you lack the ability to predict what will happen next, and you lack a sense of meaning and purpose in your life, you are likely to be more stressed and you are likely to be less resilient to all the negative-health-causing things around you. So, worse health.
So linked to this, we have the bigger-picture issue that being politically engaged (whatever that means to us) as a population is relevant to health. Partly because it means we have a say about the direct factors affecting our lives (less shit housing), and partly because just speaking and getting heard makes a difference to how we feel about our lives. I have this population health publication on my desk at the moment (that I've still not read because it's like 300 pages long but what I have read is fascinating), and this is discussing the idea of 'democratic deficit' and its relevance to health:
[A]n aspect of the heightened vulnerability of Glasgow (and Scotland) to the effects of the UK government economic policies of the 1980s to mid-1990s was the fact that those policies were implemented by governments that were being ever more emphatically rejected in Westminster elections by the Scottish electorate (including, in particular, constituencies in [West Central Scotland] and Glasgow). This perceived imposition of ‘alien’ policies on Scotland by a distant UK government led to feelings of despondency, disempowerment, and lack of sense of control – the latter being recognised ‘psychosocial’ risk factors with known links to adverse health outcomes.Compare this to Liverpool, a city with about as much deprivation as Glasgow:
In Liverpool, following years of (principally) Liberal control, local politics in the 1980s was characterised by the emergence of a Labour-controlled authority – but in particular characterised by the rise of the so-called ‘Militant’ group within that ruling Labour Party, and its (and by association, the city’s) subsequent highly overt confrontation with the UK Conservative government of the time. Described in great detail by various commentators,, the relevance of this to this synthesis is that the city council’s actions, in challenging key aspects of the UK government’s ‘political attack’ and its implications in terms of great hardship for many in the city, and in committing itself to its own large-scale programme of council house building and regeneration focused on the provision of public amenities, conferred protective effects on the city’s population. Importantly, it entailed considerable mobilisation and political participation among Liverpool’s residents – an opportunity to experience collective action, political voice and, with that, feelings of community power and efficacy.And Liverpool is a healthier city than Glasgow, by some considerable way.
So yeah, I think health is very relevant indeed to the current discussion.
Sadly, another aspect of this is that we know what works to reduce these massive inequalities in health between rich and poor areas. But there is much less of a political appetite to do them, because they are all resource-heavy Big Government things: taxation, legislation, finding more equitable ways to distribute power and wealth in society, big structural changes to services and to physical environments. There is much more of an appetite to do things that tackle individual behaviours (leaflets, posters, campaigns that require people to opt-in rather than -out), partly because it's cheaper but partly because it doesn't require such a level of investment at looking and tackling just why things are so unequal health-wise in the first place. Sorry about your shit life, Mr Smith, but here's a leaflet telling you to eat five fruit and veg a day!
posted by Catseye at 3:17 AM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
However, the underlying problem that it's a symptom of is different from the surface expression - broadly speaking, it's the failure on the right to recognise that the social-democratic institutions (social security, NHS, etc) are not lefty self-indulgences but the framework on which British civil society is built, and by eating away at them what they've done is weaken the load-bearing walls of the social edifice. The challenge is to reframe the debate to address the causes rather than the symptoms. Simply ignoring the symptoms won't make them go away.Very much so. And the problem with the Left in Britain since Blair is that it's forgotten what it's like to speak in those terms. If the task of a prospective New Labour government is to appeal to Tories in marginal electorates, while throwing the odd bone to keep metropolitan liberals happy, then those traditional social democratic institutions simply aren't going to get a look in. They're unfashionable; outside the frame. Perhaps it's even worse than that. As the PLP becomes ever more dominated by the same narrow set of Oxbridge-educated upper-middle-class and hereditary politicians as populate the Tory and Lib Dem caucuses, we have a group of parliamentary representatives who simply don't value those institutions as they never really have need to use them.
What's really frightening, though, is that the far right does know the value of those institutions and talks about it constantly, only in ethno-nationalist terms: we could, they say, "save" the NHS and the benefits system if only we could prevent foreign others from using them. As in continental Europe in general, it could well be argued that the political groupings emerging on the far right (other than UKIP) are actually moderately social democratic in outlook, as both their leadership and membership is drawn from the classes of people who still rely on those institutions—council housing, the NHS, the benefits system—to get by, while the parliamentary representatives of the traditional parties live in a world of privilege and private provision.
I'd like to see a Labour Party that draws its prospective MPs much more systematically from its grass roots and local offices. No more parachuted-in SPADs with Oxford degrees and no discernible connection to the regions they're supposedly representing. Local MPs for local people. OK, maybe that's a bit Royston Vesey and unrealistic, but it's the only way in which this yawning gulf between the local membership and the PLP is going to get bridged.
posted by Sonny Jim at 4:43 AM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
The countries that invented points-based immigration systems have concluded they do not work.
Groups that monitor hate crimes say it is too simplistic to blame the spike in reported incidents purely on the referendum vote.
posted by rory at 5:10 AM on July 8, 2016
Groups that monitor hate crimes say it is too simplistic to blame the spike in reported incidents purely on the referendum vote.
posted by rory at 5:10 AM on July 8, 2016
Elsewhere: Twelve people die in traffic jam in Indonesia at junction called 'Brexit'
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:32 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 5:32 AM on July 8, 2016
During the referendum campaign, we argued for an end to EU-enforced liberalisation and privatisation of public services – and for freedom for public enterprise and public investment, now restricted by EU treaties.
Does anyone know what exactly this refers to?
One specific thing is the re-nationalisation of the rail service in the UK which is currently not allowed due to EU laws. A massive cross-party percentage of the UK public supports this but we are not able to implement this change in our current system.
posted by longbaugh at 7:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does anyone know what exactly this refers to?
One specific thing is the re-nationalisation of the rail service in the UK which is currently not allowed due to EU laws. A massive cross-party percentage of the UK public supports this but we are not able to implement this change in our current system.
posted by longbaugh at 7:00 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Philip Hammond - "We will have informal talks about citizens with other EU member states on 17th July."
German government - "No you won't."
posted by MattWPBS at 7:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
German government - "No you won't."
posted by MattWPBS at 7:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Re-nationalisation is somewhat curious. London's transport is run by a public body, TfL, and it's been quite aggressively taking over more and more lines from private operators. It does get subsidies from central government, but those are due to be phased out by 2020, after which it will be autonomously funded. EU law doesn't prohibit this, as long as the franchises it takes over are competitively tendered. And TfL franchises the buses out to private companies, imposing a uniform, integrated ticketing, fare and integrated timetabling scheme, so it is quite possible to have a nationalised system with strong control and EU compliance.
posted by Devonian at 7:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 7:36 AM on July 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've looked into the nationalisation issue, and I think it's not true.
There are a number of directives that talk about how railways (and markets) must be run, but crucially others which talk about how none of the treaties can restrict rules on property ownership.
Most of the specifically railway directives are geared towards integrating rail services across europe and having environments where that is allowed.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:56 AM on July 8, 2016
There are a number of directives that talk about how railways (and markets) must be run, but crucially others which talk about how none of the treaties can restrict rules on property ownership.
Most of the specifically railway directives are geared towards integrating rail services across europe and having environments where that is allowed.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:56 AM on July 8, 2016
Besides which, many of the rail franchises are owned or part-owned by the national rail companies of other countries. Same thing is true of energy providers.
posted by Grangousier at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Grangousier at 8:09 AM on July 8, 2016
The argument often made is that EU competition law acts in one direction, i.e that you can privatise (because it increases market liberalization {article 176, I think?} ) but once privatized you cannot then nationalise, because that would reduce market liberalization.
There's also the first railway directive, which would imply that you can't, but most rail services are explicitly excluded, so it's really talking about track access agreements primarily aimed at international services.
Then, on top of that is the one that says that EU treaties cannot prejudice models of ownership, (which I'm gonna say for argument is article 347?) which to me pretty much says that you can set up ownership of stuff how you want.
I'm not a rail (or eu) law specialist though, just a general purpose rail analyst.
Certainly quite a lot of Train Operating Companies are owned by foreign governments. (Mainly Germany(Arriva), Netherlands (Abellio) and France(Keolis))
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 9:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's also the first railway directive, which would imply that you can't, but most rail services are explicitly excluded, so it's really talking about track access agreements primarily aimed at international services.
Then, on top of that is the one that says that EU treaties cannot prejudice models of ownership, (which I'm gonna say for argument is article 347?) which to me pretty much says that you can set up ownership of stuff how you want.
I'm not a rail (or eu) law specialist though, just a general purpose rail analyst.
Certainly quite a lot of Train Operating Companies are owned by foreign governments. (Mainly Germany(Arriva), Netherlands (Abellio) and France(Keolis))
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 9:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Basically if it isn't a local monopoly, then it can't be in the hands of the state.
So you don't need to privatize your railways, however if you were to separate the train operating companies from the infrastructure, and allow competition on routes the state would need to sell the train operating companies.
This is in theory at least. Basically if you haven't privatized you can fight off the EU (Like EdF for example) but if you already have you probably can't go back.
posted by JPD at 9:05 AM on July 8, 2016
So you don't need to privatize your railways, however if you were to separate the train operating companies from the infrastructure, and allow competition on routes the state would need to sell the train operating companies.
This is in theory at least. Basically if you haven't privatized you can fight off the EU (Like EdF for example) but if you already have you probably can't go back.
posted by JPD at 9:05 AM on July 8, 2016
There's an approved petition for an early General Election on the Parliament site here (not mine, they must have submitted before me).
Hopefully it's okay as a self link, here's my reasoning as to why to vote for it.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hopefully it's okay as a self link, here's my reasoning as to why to vote for it.
posted by MattWPBS at 9:06 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
MattWPS: And the German government is going to prevent the UK government having backroom discussions with other member states how exactly?
IOW, there will be talks, they just wont be "talk" talks.
posted by pharm at 9:11 AM on July 8, 2016
IOW, there will be talks, they just wont be "talk" talks.
posted by pharm at 9:11 AM on July 8, 2016
And the German government is going to prevent the UK government having backroom discussions with other member states how exactly?
Well, for one thing, this time oddly enough it doesn’t really sound like it’s the German government saying "no you won’t" as some kind of unilateral arbitrary position... from that same link posted by MattWPS, a very relevant bit that should have featured more prominently in the article:
Since the status of EU citizens in UK + status of UK citizens in the EU is governed by EU treaties, not by individual UK agreements with each country... how could it even be re-negotiated at individual level by each of those 27 countries today, before it’s even clear if and when and how the UK actually leaves the EU?
Perhaps I’m too confused at this point by everything but really I cannot see how that’s even technically feasible, nevermind the political enormity of the issue itself?
posted by bitteschoen at 11:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, for one thing, this time oddly enough it doesn’t really sound like it’s the German government saying "no you won’t" as some kind of unilateral arbitrary position... from that same link posted by MattWPS, a very relevant bit that should have featured more prominently in the article:
The negotiating line, however, is not unique to the EU’s institutions. It is shared by its 27 member states. A spokesperson for the European Council, which represents the EU heads of state and government, said the line of the remaining 27 was very clear: “no negotiations of any kind before Article 50 notification”.And does it even make sense at this stage for the UK to be suggesting talks with individual EU countries about future options for a key issue that is entirely tied up with EU membership?
Since the status of EU citizens in UK + status of UK citizens in the EU is governed by EU treaties, not by individual UK agreements with each country... how could it even be re-negotiated at individual level by each of those 27 countries today, before it’s even clear if and when and how the UK actually leaves the EU?
Perhaps I’m too confused at this point by everything but really I cannot see how that’s even technically feasible, nevermind the political enormity of the issue itself?
posted by bitteschoen at 11:25 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The post-EU UK will have to negotiate with the EU as a whole, not with individual states. But what the EU decides to do in those negotiations depends on what the individual states agree, so it makes a lot of sense to find out what those individual states have as expectations or requirements, even if the actual negotiations won't be with them directly.
So - lots of phone calls ,very few minuted meetings.
posted by Devonian at 12:01 PM on July 8, 2016
So - lots of phone calls ,very few minuted meetings.
posted by Devonian at 12:01 PM on July 8, 2016
Incidentally, the woman who wrote the account of the CLP meeting I posted up there has been dealing with threats, abuse and demands that she proves she's not part of a Blaire/Fascist conspiracy working for Portland Communications all day.
Basically the Labour Party has turned into Gamergate.
posted by Grangousier at 1:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
Basically the Labour Party has turned into Gamergate.
posted by Grangousier at 1:16 PM on July 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
IOW, there will be talks, they just wont be "talk" talks.
It doesn't seem likely that the member-states will be interested in local talks with the UK: almost all have their own anti-union parties and no-one wants those to get ideas — at all.
The first priority is to prevent further damage in the form of more populist anti-EU referendums.
And the idea that the UK is too big to be ignored can be and has already been turned on its head. If the UK has no access to the EU market, it has no leverage at all. France and Germany are so ready to take over the financial markets and whatever motor/weapons-industry is left in the UK. And there was never a big demand for Marmite outside the Commonwealth, anyway.
Farage can probably chat with his fellow populists in the EP and all the manufacturers and farmers who sell stuff in the UK will lobby for good deals, but at the level of government, I'd be surprised if anyone wants to talk with the UK government about anything before the art. 50 button is pushed, and even then, it will follow procedure.
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on July 8, 2016
It doesn't seem likely that the member-states will be interested in local talks with the UK: almost all have their own anti-union parties and no-one wants those to get ideas — at all.
The first priority is to prevent further damage in the form of more populist anti-EU referendums.
And the idea that the UK is too big to be ignored can be and has already been turned on its head. If the UK has no access to the EU market, it has no leverage at all. France and Germany are so ready to take over the financial markets and whatever motor/weapons-industry is left in the UK. And there was never a big demand for Marmite outside the Commonwealth, anyway.
Farage can probably chat with his fellow populists in the EP and all the manufacturers and farmers who sell stuff in the UK will lobby for good deals, but at the level of government, I'd be surprised if anyone wants to talk with the UK government about anything before the art. 50 button is pushed, and even then, it will follow procedure.
posted by mumimor at 1:46 PM on July 8, 2016
Basically the Labour Party has turned into Gamergate.
It's about ethics in being a completely ineffectual opposition party.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's about ethics in being a completely ineffectual opposition party.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:47 PM on July 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile in Scotland - the indy polls have settled down to around 53 percent yes and steady, which is very new - that hasn't happened before. And the chap who was permanent secretary to the Treasury and who was charged with making the case agains indy the last time has written an opinion piece in the FT (paywalled, but you get four free a month for registering) saying the case is much stronger now and with work could be achievable and beneficial.
(The luck I've had in my life has so far, and most inexplicably, outweighed my own stupidity: I think moving to Edinburgh from London six months ago may be the best example yet. I could yet escape the mammoth stupid.)
posted by Devonian at 2:07 PM on July 8, 2016
(The luck I've had in my life has so far, and most inexplicably, outweighed my own stupidity: I think moving to Edinburgh from London six months ago may be the best example yet. I could yet escape the mammoth stupid.)
posted by Devonian at 2:07 PM on July 8, 2016
what the EU decides to do in those negotiations depends on what the individual states agree, so it makes a lot of sense to find out what those individual states have as expectations or requirements, even if the actual negotiations won't be with them directly
Devonian, I understand that reasoning but it sounds like a very generous abstraction of the current reality to me.
This is not really a question of what any individual country expects, it’s a question of how the UK government first and foremost will decide to handle a decision it did not even intend to take, and is now not rushing to put into effect. And above all, how it will handle the anti-immigration sentiment boosted by the vote.
What could a Foreign Minister of any EU country tell the UK Foreign Minister in two weeks time? Of their own initiative? Let’s imagine these phone calls or informal talks over dinner, what different sort of positions and expectations and requirements does the UK Foreign Minister expect to hear? other than the usual stuff about keeping strong and friendly relations in the reciprocal interest etc. They won’t be able to say more than that, will they?
Forgive me for looking at this with some frustration from the other side of the channel, but what Hammond suggested about informal talks over reciprocal migration aka freedom of movement at this stage sounds more like political posturing, to appease the Leave camp, to shift the responsibility elsewhere, to pretend there’s still any chance of informal pre-negotiating, to pretend that anything can actually move forward while still buying more time.
And then in a few months or years (IF it ever comes to that) when the UK government has to accept a deal that will piss off the anti-immigration voters, they can blame it on Brussels or even better Germany once again...
Forgive me for being cynical, I do genuinely hope things will go differently, but I don’t see much room for a more generous interpretation of Hammond’s idea of "informal talks" at this point.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:34 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Devonian, I understand that reasoning but it sounds like a very generous abstraction of the current reality to me.
This is not really a question of what any individual country expects, it’s a question of how the UK government first and foremost will decide to handle a decision it did not even intend to take, and is now not rushing to put into effect. And above all, how it will handle the anti-immigration sentiment boosted by the vote.
What could a Foreign Minister of any EU country tell the UK Foreign Minister in two weeks time? Of their own initiative? Let’s imagine these phone calls or informal talks over dinner, what different sort of positions and expectations and requirements does the UK Foreign Minister expect to hear? other than the usual stuff about keeping strong and friendly relations in the reciprocal interest etc. They won’t be able to say more than that, will they?
Forgive me for looking at this with some frustration from the other side of the channel, but what Hammond suggested about informal talks over reciprocal migration aka freedom of movement at this stage sounds more like political posturing, to appease the Leave camp, to shift the responsibility elsewhere, to pretend there’s still any chance of informal pre-negotiating, to pretend that anything can actually move forward while still buying more time.
And then in a few months or years (IF it ever comes to that) when the UK government has to accept a deal that will piss off the anti-immigration voters, they can blame it on Brussels or even better Germany once again...
Forgive me for being cynical, I do genuinely hope things will go differently, but I don’t see much room for a more generous interpretation of Hammond’s idea of "informal talks" at this point.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:34 PM on July 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Bitteschoen, 'looking at this with some frustration' is understating the case as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't disagree with a word you say. I'm hoping that the people on both sides of the Brexit chasm, who until a fortnight ago were on the same side, are still talking and trying, mutually, to work out how to minimise the harm of what this extraordinary exercise in stupidity promises to visit upon us.
I am hoping that pragmatism overrides legalism, just for now. Because fishing the turd out of the punchbowl is of primary importance.
posted by Devonian at 3:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am hoping that pragmatism overrides legalism, just for now. Because fishing the turd out of the punchbowl is of primary importance.
posted by Devonian at 3:24 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's about ethics in being a completely ineffectual opposition party.
Seems Arron Banks has promised to fund a conservative version of Momentum, so your next election may be purely about ethics...
posted by effbot at 3:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seems Arron Banks has promised to fund a conservative version of Momentum, so your next election may be purely about ethics...
posted by effbot at 3:42 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Arron Banks, Nigel Farage and Nick Griffin's favoured candidate highlights this morning:
posted by Quagkapi at 1:27 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
RS: During the debates you repeatedly said as a mum. Do you feel like a mum in politics?Loathsome says the above is "the exact opposite of what I said" - but the BBC has the audio.
Andrea Leadsom: Yes. I am sure Theresa will be really sad she doesn't have children so l don't want this to be 'Andrea has children, Theresa hasn't' because I think that would be really horrible but genuinely l feel that being a mum means you have a very real stake in the future of our country, a tangible stake. She possibly has nieces, nephews, lots of people, but I have children who are going to have children who will directly be a part of what happens next.
RS: So it really keeps you focussed on what are you really saying?
AL: It means you don't want a downturn but never mind ten years hence it will all be fine, my children will be starting their lives in that next ten years so have a real stake in the next year, the next two.
posted by Quagkapi at 1:27 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Marina Hyde's column in the Guardian this morning on Andrea Leadsom is utterly, scorchingly brilliant:
posted by Sonny Jim at 1:29 AM on July 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
“I want to speak to the markets,” Leadsom smiled, with the air of someone who imagines you can negotiate with gravity. There was absolutely nothing to fear, she went on, smiling that smile again. Andrea Leadsom’s smile is terrifying. It is the smile of the school careers adviser telling you flatly that the school is looking for a night caretaker. It is a smile that is powered by the extinguishing of your future. You can’t escape Andrea’s smile. And it’ll certainly come for you if you try.Marina Hyde, Andrea Leadsom is the leader of an am-dram peasants’ revolt, The Guardian (9 July 2016).
...
... it’s hard to imagine where we were before Andrea was deemed a breakout star of the referendum campaign. Yet we still know so tantalisingly little about her. After all, as a junior minister in Her Majesty’s government, Andrea enjoyed the sort of anonymity you’d hope for in one of the better witness protection programmes.
...
Which leaves us with Theresa May. Has it really come to this? Yes. Yes, I’m afraid it has. There are few neater indicators of quite how far we’ve travelled over the past 14 days than to find so many people, particularly non-Tory voters, now actively yearning for it to be Theresa May. “Christ,” muttered one friend with wry despair, “I now want this more than I did Obama.” Yup, we’re all realpolitikos now. Stick a fork in my dreams. They’re done.
posted by Sonny Jim at 1:29 AM on July 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
fair enough, but the current situation is truly miserable, and glossing over it would be lying to the public.
(There's a nice story about Isabella Rossellini today, though)
posted by mumimor at 2:36 AM on July 9, 2016
(There's a nice story about Isabella Rossellini today, though)
posted by mumimor at 2:36 AM on July 9, 2016
Depressing news - a Romanian shop in Norwich was firebombed.
Reassuring news - the reaction.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:07 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
Reassuring news - the reaction.
posted by MattWPBS at 3:07 AM on July 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's actively harmful to everyone's mental health.
Maybe you have been blessed with "acceptance", while others are still wresting with "denial" and/or "anger" and/or "bargaining" and/or "depression"?
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:20 AM on July 9, 2016
Maybe you have been blessed with "acceptance", while others are still wresting with "denial" and/or "anger" and/or "bargaining" and/or "depression"?
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:20 AM on July 9, 2016
Where are the plans?
Oh, there's been a lot of plans, even if not all of them worked that well. Your local Trump has some strange ones, for example, and a few that she's just playing with, even if she seems mostly outraged that media quoted her. And on the other side, glorious leader also has plans, even if I cannot quite tell what locking people up in gyms is good for. I suspect that if you want actual plans for the country, you may have to talk to Sturgeon.
posted by effbot at 3:36 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, there's been a lot of plans, even if not all of them worked that well. Your local Trump has some strange ones, for example, and a few that she's just playing with, even if she seems mostly outraged that media quoted her. And on the other side, glorious leader also has plans, even if I cannot quite tell what locking people up in gyms is good for. I suspect that if you want actual plans for the country, you may have to talk to Sturgeon.
posted by effbot at 3:36 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I see they've rejected the petition and it is all systems go. Strange how Cameron has decided to step down but the Foreign Office is acting like the trigger has been pulled already and Brexit is a done deal. Surely it was supposed to be left up to the next P.M.?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 AM on July 9, 2016
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 AM on July 9, 2016
It's on. Tom Watson:
So presumably the "compromise" the PLP wanted was for Corbyn to step down voluntarily: i.e. accede unilaterally to their shabby little coup. Now we have the unedifying sight of Eagle (voted for the Iraq War; abstained on benefit cuts) blazing the "path to socialism" on behalf of all the Oxfordians in the PLP who are, of course, suffering so much. Won't someone respect their authority? They're from the political classes! How awful that Jeremy doesn't respect their God-given right to rule!
posted by Sonny Jim at 5:12 AM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
“The Labour party was founded with the explicit aim of pursuing the parliamentary path to socialism. Every Labour leader needs to command the support of their MPs in the parliamentary Labour party, as well as party members, in order to achieve that. It is clear to all that Jeremy has lost the support of the PLP with little prospect of regaining it.”Jeremy Corbyn set for leadership challenge after peace talks fail, Guardian (9 July 2016).
So presumably the "compromise" the PLP wanted was for Corbyn to step down voluntarily: i.e. accede unilaterally to their shabby little coup. Now we have the unedifying sight of Eagle (voted for the Iraq War; abstained on benefit cuts) blazing the "path to socialism" on behalf of all the Oxfordians in the PLP who are, of course, suffering so much. Won't someone respect their authority? They're from the political classes! How awful that Jeremy doesn't respect their God-given right to rule!
posted by Sonny Jim at 5:12 AM on July 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
A thought: could someone create a new post for the Corbyn situation?
From a distance, Brexit is an important issue with consequences for the whole EU, even the world.
The drama within Labour is definitely part of this, but as is, Labour will have no influence on developments the first couple of years.
posted by mumimor at 5:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
From a distance, Brexit is an important issue with consequences for the whole EU, even the world.
The drama within Labour is definitely part of this, but as is, Labour will have no influence on developments the first couple of years.
posted by mumimor at 5:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
The rejection doesn't explicitly rule out a debate, though. The petition has received over 10x the number of signatures as the next-largest. It would be awful if that dismissal is the peak of official recognition.
Regardless of a second Brexit referendum, any future referendum with such dire consequences should have thresholds like 75% turnout, 66% majority to pass at the very least debated beforehand.
Edit: correction: not 10x. My mistake. Next-largest is 800,000.
posted by Quagkapi at 5:24 AM on July 9, 2016
Regardless of a second Brexit referendum, any future referendum with such dire consequences should have thresholds like 75% turnout, 66% majority to pass at the very least debated beforehand.
Edit: correction: not 10x. My mistake. Next-largest is 800,000.
posted by Quagkapi at 5:24 AM on July 9, 2016
the Foreign Office is acting like the trigger has been pulled already
Sherpas doing what sherpas do, while team members figure out who will be team leader?
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:55 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sherpas doing what sherpas do, while team members figure out who will be team leader?
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:55 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Leadsom "Mum" thing is a disgusting Murdoch stitch-up at the expense of her and May both. It still works at undermining her because she saw it, but wasn't savvy enough to avoid it. Fuck The Times for contriving that and well done for forcing their preferred choice on us. But mostly fuck them.
I just caught Corbyn giving it some at a Durham Miners Do whilst I was trying to check news headlines during the Wimbledon Ladies Final. Not seen much of him unfiltered. He really comes across as good, sincere and very aware, articulating things that should be largely uncontroversial. A bare side-shuffle from the fuckwit Cameron, disputable on means of delivery rather than necessity to implement. E.g. free education for all enriches us all, as a society and financially. Gah, so maddening! I hope Corbyn stands up saying what needs to be said until the end of his days, but I hope harder that May is somehow forced into an early election and the UK's second female Prime Minister Angela Eagle actually gets a significant amount of the change he talks about implemented.
You'll thank me when you share my politics
posted by comealongpole at 7:26 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just caught Corbyn giving it some at a Durham Miners Do whilst I was trying to check news headlines during the Wimbledon Ladies Final. Not seen much of him unfiltered. He really comes across as good, sincere and very aware, articulating things that should be largely uncontroversial. A bare side-shuffle from the fuckwit Cameron, disputable on means of delivery rather than necessity to implement. E.g. free education for all enriches us all, as a society and financially. Gah, so maddening! I hope Corbyn stands up saying what needs to be said until the end of his days, but I hope harder that May is somehow forced into an early election and the UK's second female Prime Minister Angela Eagle actually gets a significant amount of the change he talks about implemented.
You'll thank me when you share my politics
posted by comealongpole at 7:26 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh God, maths! Errr, yes, fair point!
posted by comealongpole at 7:42 AM on July 9, 2016
posted by comealongpole at 7:42 AM on July 9, 2016
The Leadsom "Mum" thing is a disgusting Murdoch stitch-up at the expense of her and May both. It still works at undermining her because she saw it, but wasn't savvy enough to avoid it. Fuck The Times for contriving that and well done for forcing their preferred choice on us. But mostly fuck them
Don't look to me to defend Murdoch, but that was just journalism. Interviews are supposed to give you something of the flavour of the interviewee, and I have no doubt that this one has done just that. She hasn't got the wit to avoid saying those sorts of things on the record, she hasn't got the humanity to realise how bad those sorts of things are, and she hasn't got the common sense to deal with the fallout without making it worse.
She appears at the moment to be a poisonous fantasist with the brains of a cactus. I don't think reporting this is bad journalism.
posted by Devonian at 8:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
Don't look to me to defend Murdoch, but that was just journalism. Interviews are supposed to give you something of the flavour of the interviewee, and I have no doubt that this one has done just that. She hasn't got the wit to avoid saying those sorts of things on the record, she hasn't got the humanity to realise how bad those sorts of things are, and she hasn't got the common sense to deal with the fallout without making it worse.
She appears at the moment to be a poisonous fantasist with the brains of a cactus. I don't think reporting this is bad journalism.
posted by Devonian at 8:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
am now pondering the interior life of cacti. it is strangely calming.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:39 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:39 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Honest question --- are there any Young Turks in the Labor Party? From the outside, it almost seems like Corbyn et al had been working for months to finally scrub the Blairites once and for all, and they're treating the arrival of a genuine national crisis as an unwlecome distraction from that. The hardcore bits of the party membership seem rabidly unwilling to work with the PLP, even though as far as I can tell ideologically the PLP seems closer to the median voter. I guess I'm just wondering if there's anybody out there, sort of Justin Trudeau-ish, young enough not to have been around for the Iraq war vote but respected enough to bring the party together? The current generation of leadership seems so wrapped up in fighting the last war they are completely unable to confront the problems facing them in 2016. Again, from the position of an ignorant outsider, right now it looks just as likely that there won't be a Labor Party in a few years as that they will be able to lead the country.
posted by Diablevert at 8:41 AM on July 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Diablevert at 8:41 AM on July 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
And on the other side, glorious leader also has plans, even if I cannot quite tell what locking people up in gyms is good for.
I follow many people on Twitter. They all seem to be honest, trustworthy people, doing good things. But on Corbyn, most of them seem to live in two completely separate realities: one where Corbyn is pitiful and beyond contempt; and one where Corbyn is our best hope.
The media lies. I've known this for a long time, but have never known it quite to the extent that I have since Corbyn came onto the scene. Even the Times article on what Andrea Leadsom said is a distortion -- which is completely unnecessary, as what she actually said was terrible enough. But that is minor compared to everything surrounding Corbyn.
I see things like this and this. I see reporting of Corbyn standing by doing nothing while a Labour MP gets antisemitic abuse; it gets posted here too; I dig, find explanation from Shami Chakrabarti herself, someone I assume most of us respect; nobody cares. I see people repeatedly bring up Twitter comments from Corbyn supporters, as if they say something about Corbyn, even though he has explicitly condemned them.
I see this from Krishnan Guru-Murthy, someone I mostly trust and respect. I click through, to see how Momentum is "winding them up about the conduct of MPs", and the only thing I see that fits his description in any way is this part: "The actions of some MPs have destabilised Labour and sought to subvert democracy".
The first part of that sentence should be relatively uncontroversial. The second, if you take "democracy" to be referring to the country's democracy, then it would be "winding them up"; but if you take it to refer to democracy in the Labour Party -- which makes so much more sense within that context -- it is not unreasonable or surprising from Momentum's perspective, and is not "winding them up" any more than any complaint about the PLP's behaviour would be. Meanwhile, the rest of the message in Momentum's statement -- "we must redouble our efforts to treat each other with respect", "members must understand the vital role MPs and their staff play, especially in their constituencies" -- becomes "Momentum asks members to behave". As if they are children.
So I see how he interpreted it; and yet looking at the same thing, I see something completely different.
Yes, it is a tweet, with the character limit. But it's all like this. I find outrage, disdain and contempt; I dig deeper, and it's rarely, if ever undistorted, and more often than not completely made up. Nothing about Corbyn can be relied on to be true, without double- and triple-checking multiple sources.
Is this?
There is no acknowledgement that making Corbyn go would mean handing the Labour Party back to the MPs who staggered their resignations to fill up the news cycle and move the spotlight away from the Tories, from Boris and Gove and Farage, from their lies and betrayal of the country. No acknowledgement that it would be handing the party back to the people who abstained on the Welfare Bill. No acknowledgement that Corbyn actually stands for anything real that matters, things that are life and death for people, things that have needed to change in the Labour Party for a long time.
I am an immigrant; unless I scrape my face off, I will always look like an immigrant. Everyone is all Oh how horrible, all the racist attacks and abuse. But there is no acknowledgement that Corbyn going might mean handing the party back to the people behind Labour's anti-immigrant mugs. As an immigrant, outside the Green Party and Corbyn, I have no one else. No one else I can trust is standing.
You say Corbyn is incompetent. Which of the recent moves against Corbyn from the PLP would you describe as competent?
You might say, what good is it if Labour can't get into power? And I agree. That is why I am undecided. I don't want to do the Lexit-equivalent with the Labour Party. I understand that if the Labour Party splits (or even if it doesn't), Corbyn staying might mean Tory rule for the much longer-term. I am entirely open to someone else other than Corbyn, if they are someone I can trust to be against austerity, and not pander to the racists.
What I most don't understand about the torrent of bullshit against Corbyn is that he has plenty of undeniable flaws. The Little Red Book suggests that there is something to how insular and inside their own bubble Corbyn and the people surrounding him must have been. His ego is evident even in his own speeches and writing; he is understandably defensive, but I just want to tell him, Stop talking about yourself Jeremy, it is not about you, and people don't want to hear about you. It's clear that while he is inspirational with many people who already agree with him, he has not yet shown ability to persuade people with different views (even if I do not see any evidence that convinces me he is "unelectable"). And many more. But it's like all those things are not enough. Instead of taking into account what is clearly good about him and why he is important for so many people, together with all the ways he falls short, it's this endless torrent of petty bullshit and contempt.
That is why I think you see so much anger surrounding him. We can all see it.
Another thing about Corbyn: if we end up keeping free movement, where do the people unconvinced about free movement go, other than to the Tories, UKIP, or worse? I believe, going by their record and by what they have said on free movement since Brexit, that Corbyn and McDonnell, while being Eurosceptics, would never blame immigrants, would never say that the racists have "valid concerns". While they understand where the anti-immigration feelings come from --
But that is just one of the concerns. And this is not in support of Corbyn. This is just a plea: please stop adding more noise, and more contempt. Our country really is on the line, and I would really like us to have better information, so we can make better decisions, and make the least worst of a terrible situation.
posted by catchingsignals at 8:44 AM on July 9, 2016 [22 favorites]
The email to the House of Commons sergeant-at-arms did not order the cancellation of the passes but merely informed the parliamentary authorities that the list of advisers were no longer employed by the Labour party.This relentless torrent of shit -- I am just so angry and tired of it. All of it.
I follow many people on Twitter. They all seem to be honest, trustworthy people, doing good things. But on Corbyn, most of them seem to live in two completely separate realities: one where Corbyn is pitiful and beyond contempt; and one where Corbyn is our best hope.
The media lies. I've known this for a long time, but have never known it quite to the extent that I have since Corbyn came onto the scene. Even the Times article on what Andrea Leadsom said is a distortion -- which is completely unnecessary, as what she actually said was terrible enough. But that is minor compared to everything surrounding Corbyn.
I see things like this and this. I see reporting of Corbyn standing by doing nothing while a Labour MP gets antisemitic abuse; it gets posted here too; I dig, find explanation from Shami Chakrabarti herself, someone I assume most of us respect; nobody cares. I see people repeatedly bring up Twitter comments from Corbyn supporters, as if they say something about Corbyn, even though he has explicitly condemned them.
I see this from Krishnan Guru-Murthy, someone I mostly trust and respect. I click through, to see how Momentum is "winding them up about the conduct of MPs", and the only thing I see that fits his description in any way is this part: "The actions of some MPs have destabilised Labour and sought to subvert democracy".
The first part of that sentence should be relatively uncontroversial. The second, if you take "democracy" to be referring to the country's democracy, then it would be "winding them up"; but if you take it to refer to democracy in the Labour Party -- which makes so much more sense within that context -- it is not unreasonable or surprising from Momentum's perspective, and is not "winding them up" any more than any complaint about the PLP's behaviour would be. Meanwhile, the rest of the message in Momentum's statement -- "we must redouble our efforts to treat each other with respect", "members must understand the vital role MPs and their staff play, especially in their constituencies" -- becomes "Momentum asks members to behave". As if they are children.
So I see how he interpreted it; and yet looking at the same thing, I see something completely different.
Yes, it is a tweet, with the character limit. But it's all like this. I find outrage, disdain and contempt; I dig deeper, and it's rarely, if ever undistorted, and more often than not completely made up. Nothing about Corbyn can be relied on to be true, without double- and triple-checking multiple sources.
The leadership of Jeremy Corbyn has been subject to the most savage campaign of falsehood and misrepresentation in some of our most popular media outlets. He has, at different times, been derided, ignored, vilified and condemned. Few journalists attempted to fathom the reason for his overwhelming victory in the Labour leadership contest in 2015 and few have sought systematically and impartially to explore the policies he has promoted as leader. We do not expect journalists to give any elected leader an easy ride but Corbyn has been treated from the start as a problem to be solved rather than as a politician to be taken seriously. The reason is that he has never been part of the Westminster village or the media bubble and that he has never hidden his commitment to socialist politics. At a time when austerity, insecurity and racism remain real threats to the lives of many people in the UK, we believe that Jeremy Corbyn can help to provide a way out of the mess we are in. We condemn the unwarranted attacks on his leadership by an unelected media and call on those who want to see meaningful and progressive social change to stand behind Jeremy Corbyn.Letter in the Guardian yesterday, from many academics (including, apparently, Noam Chomsky) and others. Are they all SWP, Momentum, or Corbynites, people who don't know How The Real World Works?
Is this?
My disabled friends are desperately trying to stop their lives being destroyed. Some can't leave their houses any more or afford heating or enough food because of benefit cuts. These cuts are killing people and disability hate crime is soaring. They don't need any old Labour govt - they need an anti-austerity one. It's about life and death.That's the thing I see with the relentless contempt towards anyone who might support Corbyn: there is not even the slightest acknowledgement that there are real reasons why people might need Corbyn to stay, because they don't have anyone better. The voting records are there for all to see.
This is a human rights abuse on a massive scale. We have to fight it and that's one of the many reasons that I'm backing Corbyn. (He and McDonnell were the only Labour MPs who turned up week in and week out to tiny demos to stand beside disabled people who were fighting to cling on to their basic rights. That says it all and that's why I'm fighting for them.)
There is no acknowledgement that making Corbyn go would mean handing the Labour Party back to the MPs who staggered their resignations to fill up the news cycle and move the spotlight away from the Tories, from Boris and Gove and Farage, from their lies and betrayal of the country. No acknowledgement that it would be handing the party back to the people who abstained on the Welfare Bill. No acknowledgement that Corbyn actually stands for anything real that matters, things that are life and death for people, things that have needed to change in the Labour Party for a long time.
I am an immigrant; unless I scrape my face off, I will always look like an immigrant. Everyone is all Oh how horrible, all the racist attacks and abuse. But there is no acknowledgement that Corbyn going might mean handing the party back to the people behind Labour's anti-immigrant mugs. As an immigrant, outside the Green Party and Corbyn, I have no one else. No one else I can trust is standing.
You say Corbyn is incompetent. Which of the recent moves against Corbyn from the PLP would you describe as competent?
You might say, what good is it if Labour can't get into power? And I agree. That is why I am undecided. I don't want to do the Lexit-equivalent with the Labour Party. I understand that if the Labour Party splits (or even if it doesn't), Corbyn staying might mean Tory rule for the much longer-term. I am entirely open to someone else other than Corbyn, if they are someone I can trust to be against austerity, and not pander to the racists.
What I most don't understand about the torrent of bullshit against Corbyn is that he has plenty of undeniable flaws. The Little Red Book suggests that there is something to how insular and inside their own bubble Corbyn and the people surrounding him must have been. His ego is evident even in his own speeches and writing; he is understandably defensive, but I just want to tell him, Stop talking about yourself Jeremy, it is not about you, and people don't want to hear about you. It's clear that while he is inspirational with many people who already agree with him, he has not yet shown ability to persuade people with different views (even if I do not see any evidence that convinces me he is "unelectable"). And many more. But it's like all those things are not enough. Instead of taking into account what is clearly good about him and why he is important for so many people, together with all the ways he falls short, it's this endless torrent of petty bullshit and contempt.
That is why I think you see so much anger surrounding him. We can all see it.
Another thing about Corbyn: if we end up keeping free movement, where do the people unconvinced about free movement go, other than to the Tories, UKIP, or worse? I believe, going by their record and by what they have said on free movement since Brexit, that Corbyn and McDonnell, while being Eurosceptics, would never blame immigrants, would never say that the racists have "valid concerns". While they understand where the anti-immigration feelings come from --
But deprivation by itself did not explain the Leave vote, as the results in London show. It was where those socio-economic characteristics occurred in places with a predominantly white British population, that the Leave vote was strongest. So where migrants were not present, it appears they were held partly to blame for the all-too-real, but much deeper-seated, economic difficulties experienced by locals.-- they would not validate them. They are pro-free movement in the long run, but understand that people have not been persuaded; and they intend to do the work of raising people's living standards, while bringing people to the understanding that we are all in this together. So, I would much rather have a eurosceptic Corbyn/McDonnell for people to go to, rather than UKIP. If Angela Eagle wins, and we get a Labour Party that tries to turn back the clock... where would they go?
But that is just one of the concerns. And this is not in support of Corbyn. This is just a plea: please stop adding more noise, and more contempt. Our country really is on the line, and I would really like us to have better information, so we can make better decisions, and make the least worst of a terrible situation.
posted by catchingsignals at 8:44 AM on July 9, 2016 [22 favorites]
Honest question --- are there any Young Turks in the Labor Party?
Ahem, you missed a 'u'.
As another American though, I have been following Owen Jones since just before Brexit, actually he first came to my attention when he stormed out of a Sky News interview after Orlando in probably the best moment in live TV this whole horrible year. He seems to have his head screwed on pretty tight. Not an MP of course but he appears to be fairly involved in the Labour backrooms. I'd be curious to hear what answers actual UK residents have for this question....
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:09 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ahem, you missed a 'u'.
As another American though, I have been following Owen Jones since just before Brexit, actually he first came to my attention when he stormed out of a Sky News interview after Orlando in probably the best moment in live TV this whole horrible year. He seems to have his head screwed on pretty tight. Not an MP of course but he appears to be fairly involved in the Labour backrooms. I'd be curious to hear what answers actual UK residents have for this question....
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:09 AM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which Foot Do You Kick With?
On Friday, we woke up to a United Kingdom that had voted to leave the European Union. Even though Northern Ireland voted by 56 percent to remain in the EU, it may be dragged out by voters who live in England and Wales.posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:35 AM on July 9, 2016 [19 favorites]
To say that there is anxiety in Northern Ireland over the Brexit would be an understatement. The tendency in English (as opposed to British) politics that finds itself invigorated by the Brexit vote either ignores Northern Ireland completely, or is hostile to the foundations of the society built there after the end of the Troubles.
Michael Gove, who while losing the Tory leadership contest is set to wield considerable influence in the next government, wrote in 2000 that the Good Friday Agreement was a “Trojan horse” for the “vision of human rights which privileges contending minorities at the expense of the democratic majority.” Gove felt the peace agreement “demeans traditional expressions of British national identity. And it privileges those who wish to refashion or deconstruct that identity.”
the man of twists and turns, I favorited your post but it is expressive of my worst fears
posted by mumimor at 9:52 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 9:52 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Holy hell. I hereby retract in part my statement upthread that England "did not think of [Northern Ireland] at all".
Not only did Gove think of them as far back as 2000, but he is on record as opposing the peace itself.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:33 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not only did Gove think of them as far back as 2000, but he is on record as opposing the peace itself.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:33 AM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not only did Gove think of them as far back as 2000, but he is on record as opposing the peace itself.
Here's the report he's quoting from, The Price of Peace (from a conservative think tank). Plenty of ranting about what a horrible person Tony Blair is, this time for wanting peace.
posted by effbot at 11:51 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's the report he's quoting from, The Price of Peace (from a conservative think tank). Plenty of ranting about what a horrible person Tony Blair is, this time for wanting peace.
posted by effbot at 11:51 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Price of Peace
If I was scared before, I can't describe the state I'm in now
posted by mumimor at 12:17 PM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I was scared before, I can't describe the state I'm in now
posted by mumimor at 12:17 PM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wow that document is just a cavalcade of completely wrong predictions.
I think I found something new for that Chilcot fellow to do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:22 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think I found something new for that Chilcot fellow to do.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:22 PM on July 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mentioned this on another thread: when I was young, I sincerely trusted the adults knew what they were doing. I did. Now, as I am an adult, and I know the other adults, I am scared witless.
I'm moving left in my opinions, contrary to popular wisdom. But the ignorance and irresponsible ideas on the left scare me as well as the rightwing populism. I'm reduced to a little old lady bundled up in fear - and where did that noise come from anyway?
posted by mumimor at 12:46 PM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm moving left in my opinions, contrary to popular wisdom. But the ignorance and irresponsible ideas on the left scare me as well as the rightwing populism. I'm reduced to a little old lady bundled up in fear - and where did that noise come from anyway?
posted by mumimor at 12:46 PM on July 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm reduced to a little old lady bundled up in fear - and where did that noise come from anyway?
I tell myself that I've got as much agency in this mess as anyone, so find what to do and go do it. It's not much, but it's a start - and, thank god, I'm in Scotland where there are people with a scooby who may yet prevail.
There'll be others you know who feel the same way. Get together. Start conspiring.
posted by Devonian at 12:59 PM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I tell myself that I've got as much agency in this mess as anyone, so find what to do and go do it. It's not much, but it's a start - and, thank god, I'm in Scotland where there are people with a scooby who may yet prevail.
There'll be others you know who feel the same way. Get together. Start conspiring.
posted by Devonian at 12:59 PM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
New data from the LSE shows that the turnout of young people was much higher than assumed, in the mid-60 percents. And that, while it's impossible to say for sure, had the poll been open to 16 and 17 year olds (as it was for the Scottish independence referendum) the result could well have been different.
Also, 90 percent of the 65+ contingent voted.
posted by Devonian at 1:25 PM on July 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
Also, 90 percent of the 65+ contingent voted.
posted by Devonian at 1:25 PM on July 9, 2016 [9 favorites]
More loathsome by the day...
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:18 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
A controversial rightwing American lobbying group that denies climate change science and promotes gun ownership paid for the Tory prime ministerial hopeful Andrea Leadsom to fly to the United States to attend its conferences.Neocons linked to Tea Party paid for Andrea Leadsom’s flights to US
The American Legislative Exchange Council – Alec – is a neoconservative organisation with close links to members of the Tea Party movement. Championed by supporters of the free market, it has been attacked by critics for exerting a “powerful and undemocratic” influence on US politics.
It is part funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, David and Charles, whose empire spans mining, chemicals and finance. Leadsom’s links to the council will be scrutinised closely by those trying to gauge her political leanings.
---
A spokesman for Leadsom declined to comment
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:18 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, that's terrifying.
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:27 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:27 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Let's not forget that the Leave campaign was bankrolled to a significant extent by libertarian accelerationists of the "we don't need no EEA; let's turn London into Dubai!" variety. So the Koch/TP connection makes a terrifying kind of sense.
This is a coup.
posted by Sonny Jim at 1:58 AM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is a coup.
posted by Sonny Jim at 1:58 AM on July 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Arron Banks given a soft-ball platform on Andrew Marr this morning (about 23 mins in).
posted by Quagkapi at 3:02 AM on July 10, 2016
AB: "But what I do fear is Theresa May, which I think ... would be the death of Brexit by a thousand cuts."So, Arron Banks wants to end representative democracy. The populist right and far-right would do well.
Marr: "You think she would betray the referrendum?"
AB: "Oh absolutely, yes."
...
AB: "I think that if Theresa May wins, UKIP will be back with a vengeance; I think if Andrea Leadsom wins, it will be a slightly different scenario."
Marr: "Are we talking about a new party, here?"
AB: "I think we potentially could be talking about a new party."
...
AB: "And perhaps more direct democracy. The elite have hated the referrendum, because it took the power away from them, and actually I think that this has been a wonderful thing. So actually, the idea of more referendum [sic] and going down the Swiss kind of model I think would be fantastic."
posted by Quagkapi at 3:02 AM on July 10, 2016
This is a coup.
No, not really. Just one more instance of some strands of the ruling class elites pushing their libertarian neo-con agenda.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:10 AM on July 10, 2016
No, not really. Just one more instance of some strands of the ruling class elites pushing their libertarian neo-con agenda.
posted by Mister Bijou at 3:10 AM on July 10, 2016
I get such a Squealer-from-Animal-Farm vibe when I hear people like Aaron Banks talk about populism.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:24 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:24 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
And now the chair of Momentum tweets this
No. Labour is about obtaining *power* so that it can implement it’s vision for the people. It says it right there in the constitution, Clause IV, Para 5 “On the basis of these principles, Labour seeks the trust of the people to govern.” G O V E R N. Pissing about being self righteous on the opposition benches in a state of socialist purity is not the goal. Governing is the goal.
I despair, I really do.
posted by pharm at 5:19 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
@johnmcternan Democracy gives power to people, “Winning” is the small bit that matters to political elites who want to keep power themselves— Jon Lansman (@jonlansman) July 10, 2016Seriously? WTF?
No. Labour is about obtaining *power* so that it can implement it’s vision for the people. It says it right there in the constitution, Clause IV, Para 5 “On the basis of these principles, Labour seeks the trust of the people to govern.” G O V E R N. Pissing about being self righteous on the opposition benches in a state of socialist purity is not the goal. Governing is the goal.
I despair, I really do.
posted by pharm at 5:19 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
So, Arron Banks wants to end representative democracy.
He's also on record as seeing Leave.eu as 'a rightwing Momentum' post-referendum, and, in the same breath, warning that 'we are not above causing trouble'.
I doubt the fucker has even heard of Cable Street, but that's the direction he's marching in.
posted by jack_mo at 5:19 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
He's also on record as seeing Leave.eu as 'a rightwing Momentum' post-referendum, and, in the same breath, warning that 'we are not above causing trouble'.
I doubt the fucker has even heard of Cable Street, but that's the direction he's marching in.
posted by jack_mo at 5:19 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
An update and more nuanced:
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:20 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I want Labour to win power to democratise it. Focusing on "winning" alone hoards power, ignores real needs & ultimately leads to defeat@jonlansman
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:20 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Historian Linda Colley on the current mess: It is easy to despair of our leaders, but Brexit has exposed Britain’s rotten core, covering among other things the english identity, the need for a revamped federation, and the cult of personality.
Like many other polities gripped by a sense of extreme flux and/or decline, the UK in recent decades has succumbed more obviously to a cult of strong or at least charismatic leadership. It has been striking how much of the language surrounding the current Tory leadership contest has harped on the need for a new Margaret Thatcher. By the same token, while Jeremy Corbyn is hardly a conventionally charismatic politician, many of those at grassroots level who are still passionately devoted to him seem to believe, quite as much as do old and new Thatcherites on the other side, that all that is needed is to get the right kind of individual at the top.posted by effbot at 7:27 AM on July 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you don’t focus on winning, you don’t *get* power.
Yes. But no more promises set in stone, please.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:30 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes. But no more promises set in stone, please.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:30 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh god, the Edstone.
The debate about whether 16 and 17 year olds should have the vote is arse about face. It should be whether anyone over the age of 17 should be allowed to vote -or, indeed, stand for office. I think replacing the entire House of Commons with the contents of a Gorbals primary school could only be an improvement.
posted by Devonian at 9:21 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
The debate about whether 16 and 17 year olds should have the vote is arse about face. It should be whether anyone over the age of 17 should be allowed to vote -or, indeed, stand for office. I think replacing the entire House of Commons with the contents of a Gorbals primary school could only be an improvement.
posted by Devonian at 9:21 AM on July 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you don’t focus on winning, you don’t get power.
What if you don't care about power, and you're happy to run the party as your personal "banner-wagging social protest movement" that allows you to stay at the top of your local hill forever? I mean, you've always been on the right side of history, haven't you, even if you sometimes got there late and with really strange travelling companions, so why change now?
posted by effbot at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
What if you don't care about power, and you're happy to run the party as your personal "banner-wagging social protest movement" that allows you to stay at the top of your local hill forever? I mean, you've always been on the right side of history, haven't you, even if you sometimes got there late and with really strange travelling companions, so why change now?
posted by effbot at 10:59 AM on July 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Why we voted leave: voices from northern England
BMJ editorial:
BMJ editorial:
The outcome of the EU referendum has been unfairly blamed on the working class in the north of England, and even on obesity. However, because of differential turnout and the size of the denominator population, most people who voted Leave lived in the south of England. Furthermore, of all those who voted for Leave, 59% were in the middle classes (A, B, or C1). The proportion of Leave voters in the lowest two social classes (D and E) was just 24%. The Leave voters among the middle class were crucial to the final result because the middle class constituted two thirds of all those who voted.posted by catchingsignals at 3:12 PM on July 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Italy may be the next European power to climb out of the pool if Merkel doesn't tone it back and let them deal with the banking issue the way they need to. What a wild year.
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:44 PM on July 10, 2016
posted by Slap*Happy at 3:44 PM on July 10, 2016
And now the chair of Momentum tweets this
@johnmcternan Democracy gives power to people, “Winning” is the small bit that matters to political elites who want to keep power themselves— Jon Lansman (@jonlansman) July 10, 2016
Seriously? WTF?
His tweets either side of that one:
Yeah, I despair too.
No. Labour is about obtaining *power* so that it can implement it’s vision for the people. It says it right there in the constitution, Clause IV, Para 5 “On the basis of these principles, Labour seeks the trust of the people to govern.” G O V E R N. Pissing about being self righteous on the opposition benches in a state of socialist purity is not the goal. Governing is the goal.
Seeks the trust of the people. The part that comes before govern.
posted by catchingsignals at 4:19 PM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
@johnmcternan Democracy gives power to people, “Winning” is the small bit that matters to political elites who want to keep power themselves— Jon Lansman (@jonlansman) July 10, 2016
Seriously? WTF?
His tweets either side of that one:
.@johnmcternan Democracy never mattered to Blair or those around him - not in the party, the PLP, the Cabinet, in Parliament nor the country
@johnmcternan But being concerned only with “winning” is how you drove working class voters away from @UKLabour to UKIP and the SNPAnd, as Mister Bijou quoted,
I want Labour to win power to democratise it. Focusing on "winning" alone hoards power, ignores real needs & ultimately leads to defeatMany people who voted Brexit feel alienated, disenfranchised and ignored; he suggests giving power to the people is more important than winning (man does he not know how to appeal to voters!); everyone freaks out like he's a toddler who needs to be taught that you need to win elections.
Yeah, I despair too.
No. Labour is about obtaining *power* so that it can implement it’s vision for the people. It says it right there in the constitution, Clause IV, Para 5 “On the basis of these principles, Labour seeks the trust of the people to govern.” G O V E R N. Pissing about being self righteous on the opposition benches in a state of socialist purity is not the goal. Governing is the goal.
Seeks the trust of the people. The part that comes before govern.
posted by catchingsignals at 4:19 PM on July 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you are trying to get any nuanced message across, Twitter makes it shitter!
The only way to avoid that is to post a photo of a wall of text or a video, which seems to be becoming more common on the Twitter.
Are politicians supposed to be our friends, or do they simply do our bidding without engaging their own morality? Are they only in it for their careers?
My thought for the day: if you had a friend who was depressed and talking about suicide and maybe killing their family too, would you help out or would you stage an intervention? Bearing in mind in this analogy you are the only one who can get them the cyanide they require.
Is it really political suicide to go against the slim majority that the Leave vote had? I would prefer a political suicide to the economic suicide that the country would suffer from leaving the EU, to be honest.
posted by asok at 1:16 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The only way to avoid that is to post a photo of a wall of text or a video, which seems to be becoming more common on the Twitter.
Are politicians supposed to be our friends, or do they simply do our bidding without engaging their own morality? Are they only in it for their careers?
My thought for the day: if you had a friend who was depressed and talking about suicide and maybe killing their family too, would you help out or would you stage an intervention? Bearing in mind in this analogy you are the only one who can get them the cyanide they require.
Is it really political suicide to go against the slim majority that the Leave vote had? I would prefer a political suicide to the economic suicide that the country would suffer from leaving the EU, to be honest.
posted by asok at 1:16 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Something that often seems to get missed: The UK (or at least the House of Commons) is a representative democracy.
The local party nominates candidates. They also coordinate campaigning and provide a local support structure for elected MPs.
The candidate who gains the most votes in a particular constituency represents that constituency in parliament - everybody in the constituency whether or not they voted for the candidate.
The MP has a mandate, which is conferred by the electorate. In Parliament the MP is part of a coalition (the party) and the party with the largest coalition gains the right to form policy (the government) and the next largest heads the opposition. Having a party structure streamlines the process (for example, it's possible to see how the different coalitions are shaping up as the votes come in), but also obscures the fact that the mandate of the constituency is embodied in the MP, who acts according to conscience.
It's possible for an MP to resign the whip of one party and either join another party or act as an independent. An MP can vote against the party, while still nominally accepting the whip (as Jeremy Corbyn has spent most of his career doing).
The right of the leaders of all the parties in Parliament to form policy exists in proportion to the mandate conferred by the electorate, embodied in the MPs that they elect. If the leader does not command the confidence of the MPs, for whatever reason, they do not have the authority to lead the party in Parliament. How popular they are with the party membership is neither here nor there, as the party membership do not confer power to the MPs, but the general electorate do. The rest is shenanigans. The coherence of the party coalition is maintained by the whips' office, but the leader cannot expect obedience from their MPs by right, and popularity with the party faithful (and to be honest I still need to be convinced of the depth of their faithfulness) does not give them the mandate to demand it.
If Corbyn was as principled as his supporters would have us believe, he would have resigned after the vote of no confidence, if not before. But he isn't so he didn't. To be honest it seems more and more like narcissism. It's a shame that there isn't anyone with star quality to put against him, but that doesn't mitigate his failure as leader of the opposition.
The odd thing that's come out of this for me is renewed and increased respect for parliamentary democracy and a growing unease with direct democracy.
posted by Grangousier at 1:55 AM on July 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
The local party nominates candidates. They also coordinate campaigning and provide a local support structure for elected MPs.
The candidate who gains the most votes in a particular constituency represents that constituency in parliament - everybody in the constituency whether or not they voted for the candidate.
The MP has a mandate, which is conferred by the electorate. In Parliament the MP is part of a coalition (the party) and the party with the largest coalition gains the right to form policy (the government) and the next largest heads the opposition. Having a party structure streamlines the process (for example, it's possible to see how the different coalitions are shaping up as the votes come in), but also obscures the fact that the mandate of the constituency is embodied in the MP, who acts according to conscience.
It's possible for an MP to resign the whip of one party and either join another party or act as an independent. An MP can vote against the party, while still nominally accepting the whip (as Jeremy Corbyn has spent most of his career doing).
The right of the leaders of all the parties in Parliament to form policy exists in proportion to the mandate conferred by the electorate, embodied in the MPs that they elect. If the leader does not command the confidence of the MPs, for whatever reason, they do not have the authority to lead the party in Parliament. How popular they are with the party membership is neither here nor there, as the party membership do not confer power to the MPs, but the general electorate do. The rest is shenanigans. The coherence of the party coalition is maintained by the whips' office, but the leader cannot expect obedience from their MPs by right, and popularity with the party faithful (and to be honest I still need to be convinced of the depth of their faithfulness) does not give them the mandate to demand it.
If Corbyn was as principled as his supporters would have us believe, he would have resigned after the vote of no confidence, if not before. But he isn't so he didn't. To be honest it seems more and more like narcissism. It's a shame that there isn't anyone with star quality to put against him, but that doesn't mitigate his failure as leader of the opposition.
The odd thing that's come out of this for me is renewed and increased respect for parliamentary democracy and a growing unease with direct democracy.
posted by Grangousier at 1:55 AM on July 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes, I had read those surrounding tweets. They don’t make it any better frankly.
“Seeks the trust of the people”: *all* the people. Not just a small corner of them. Blair did that & the left of the Labour party has never forgiven him for it.
posted by pharm at 2:26 AM on July 11, 2016
“Seeks the trust of the people”: *all* the people. Not just a small corner of them. Blair did that & the left of the Labour party has never forgiven him for it.
posted by pharm at 2:26 AM on July 11, 2016
I can't see Corbyn's endgame. What is the point in nominally being the leader when almost no Labour MP respects you? And supposing that there's an early election, what would his strategy be - preselect 170 new MPs? Labour would deservedly be left with nothing but a rump in the new Parliament, and even that would mostly consist of inexperienced MPs. What does he imagine can happen?
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:33 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:33 AM on July 11, 2016
Grangousier: That's certainly one theory of how a hypothetical representative democracy might work.
But in the one we have, most voters vote on party lines. A particularly popular or unpopular MP might shift the vote by a few percent. In all but tight marginals, anyone capable of pinning a rosette on their lapel gets the seat if they're the candidate of the right party. Even in tight marginals, it's usually a battle of two parties, apart from the odd George Galloway.
Moreover, democracy isn't just a choice between options. The way democracy works is that if you want a particular option to start being included, you do that largely by working within a political party. Parties are the mechanism by which the people control the government.
If a group of MPs decide they are no longer part of the mass movement that is a political party, they've abandoned the primary reason that the voters put their X in the box. People on Merseyside didn't vote for Angela Eagle (Conservative) and almost certainly wouldn't have done.
Peter Mair's book Ruling the Void is essential reading for anyone who really wants to understand modern democracy. Political parties have had shrinking membership across Europe for decades, and that's created an increasing disconnect between voters and a new class of professional politicians. Jeremy Corbyn is a rare example of a politician who's managed to partly reverse that trend.
The Labour Right seem to be close to deciding that they don't want or need a mass movement anymore. They've got phonebooks full of journalists, PR agencies and donors: maybe they can just do without the inconvenient activists to push leaflets through letterboxes. But if they do, I think they've lost any semblance of democratic legitimacy. Voters haven't actually voted for them because they're trusted and loved as individuals. If they're not representatives of a mass movement either, they're nothing at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:22 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
But in the one we have, most voters vote on party lines. A particularly popular or unpopular MP might shift the vote by a few percent. In all but tight marginals, anyone capable of pinning a rosette on their lapel gets the seat if they're the candidate of the right party. Even in tight marginals, it's usually a battle of two parties, apart from the odd George Galloway.
Moreover, democracy isn't just a choice between options. The way democracy works is that if you want a particular option to start being included, you do that largely by working within a political party. Parties are the mechanism by which the people control the government.
If a group of MPs decide they are no longer part of the mass movement that is a political party, they've abandoned the primary reason that the voters put their X in the box. People on Merseyside didn't vote for Angela Eagle (Conservative) and almost certainly wouldn't have done.
Peter Mair's book Ruling the Void is essential reading for anyone who really wants to understand modern democracy. Political parties have had shrinking membership across Europe for decades, and that's created an increasing disconnect between voters and a new class of professional politicians. Jeremy Corbyn is a rare example of a politician who's managed to partly reverse that trend.
The Labour Right seem to be close to deciding that they don't want or need a mass movement anymore. They've got phonebooks full of journalists, PR agencies and donors: maybe they can just do without the inconvenient activists to push leaflets through letterboxes. But if they do, I think they've lost any semblance of democratic legitimacy. Voters haven't actually voted for them because they're trusted and loved as individuals. If they're not representatives of a mass movement either, they're nothing at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:22 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Rumour mill is churning with news that Leadsom is going to pull out of the Tory leadership race today.
posted by pharm at 3:46 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by pharm at 3:46 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Grangousier: If the leader does not command the confidence of the MPs, for whatever reason, they do not have the authority to lead the party in Parliament.
All that means is that the party leader cannot be the head of the parliamentary party. If the PLP want to ensure that only acceptable candidates can run to become the overall party leader, then they need to adopt a Tory-style selection process.
To build upon what TheophileEscargot said, the party members who get to stand for elections and thus (potentially) become MPs are selected by the party apparatus and thus indirectly, the party leadership, who are elected by the party membership, not the general electorate.
What's happened here is the current lot of Labour MPs are those selected by the old leadership i.e. Ed Miliband, but his performance was absymal and so a new leader was elected. Now, there's a disconnect in that the party apparatus that supported the current MPs and enabled them to become MPs is no longer the same.
posted by Gyan at 3:47 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
All that means is that the party leader cannot be the head of the parliamentary party. If the PLP want to ensure that only acceptable candidates can run to become the overall party leader, then they need to adopt a Tory-style selection process.
To build upon what TheophileEscargot said, the party members who get to stand for elections and thus (potentially) become MPs are selected by the party apparatus and thus indirectly, the party leadership, who are elected by the party membership, not the general electorate.
What's happened here is the current lot of Labour MPs are those selected by the old leadership i.e. Ed Miliband, but his performance was absymal and so a new leader was elected. Now, there's a disconnect in that the party apparatus that supported the current MPs and enabled them to become MPs is no longer the same.
posted by Gyan at 3:47 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
And Leadsom has pulled out.
Carruthers, are we quite out of WTF yet?
posted by Devonian at 3:58 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Carruthers, are we quite out of WTF yet?
posted by Devonian at 3:58 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
If Leadsom quits, then that’s pretty much the entire Brexit leadership that have collective pissed themselves and quit, leaving the grown ups to sort out the mess they’ve made†. Unbelievable.
†Unless Gove manages to insert himself back into the Tory leadership race.
posted by pharm at 3:58 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
†Unless Gove manages to insert himself back into the Tory leadership race.
posted by pharm at 3:58 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think that increases the chance of a general election tbh. I think we have a bit more WTF left in us.
posted by vbfg at 3:59 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by vbfg at 3:59 AM on July 11, 2016
She hasn't confirmed it yet, the press conference starts in 10 minutes iiuc. Have people already forgotten Johnson's press conference? :-)
posted by effbot at 4:05 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by effbot at 4:05 AM on July 11, 2016
“Be assured young friend, that there is a great deal of WTF in a nation.” — Adam Smith, kinda.
posted by pharm at 4:06 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by pharm at 4:06 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Unbelievable indeed. Prescott was right (if a couple of days out). Leadsom didn't even weather the first journalist of the race to give her an interview. Her own words brought her down in a couple of sentences. Who on Earth thought she was PM material?
The race wasn't even long enough to give May a semi-pretend semblance of legitimacy. As good as a coronation. I agree this sounds like a snap GE could happen.
posted by Quagkapi at 4:14 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The race wasn't even long enough to give May a semi-pretend semblance of legitimacy. As good as a coronation. I agree this sounds like a snap GE could happen.
posted by Quagkapi at 4:14 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Leadsom reading out her letter right now - Theresa May "clearly placed to implement Brexit on the best possible terms for the British people, and she has promised she will do so". (Might have missed a word in that second clause.)
posted by rory at 4:14 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by rory at 4:14 AM on July 11, 2016
Yup. It’s happening: May is the anointed Tory leader. Looks like a whole bunch of back-room negotiating has been going on to me — I suspect that a bunch of people decided that putting everything on hold for 3 month election campaign was a very bad idea right now, so deals have been done & May is leader. 1922 cttee chair is going to speak at 12.30, probably to confirm that they won’t open up the contest.
The Tory party are the most machiavellian bunch of individuals in the country, oft described as the most sophisticated electorate there is. I really do wonder if this whole charade was a ruse to keep Gove out of power once Boris had fallen on his sword. It really wouldn’t surprise me if the MPs had worked out that May had overwhelming support amongst their number, pushed Gove out of the running, leaving Leadson to take the full force of press attention. If she survived that, great!, if not, well they were happy to elect May in the first place & now they don’t have to deal with a tiresome election campaign.
posted by pharm at 4:20 AM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Tory party are the most machiavellian bunch of individuals in the country, oft described as the most sophisticated electorate there is. I really do wonder if this whole charade was a ruse to keep Gove out of power once Boris had fallen on his sword. It really wouldn’t surprise me if the MPs had worked out that May had overwhelming support amongst their number, pushed Gove out of the running, leaving Leadson to take the full force of press attention. If she survived that, great!, if not, well they were happy to elect May in the first place & now they don’t have to deal with a tiresome election campaign.
posted by pharm at 4:20 AM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Reportedly, if Leadsom has quit then the 1922 Committee (suspiciously Bolshy name IMO) has the duty of finding another deckchair candidate. Or maybe not! It looks as though nobody imagined what would happen if you start with more than one candidate but only one candidate is left standing when it's time to vote.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:20 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:20 AM on July 11, 2016
ffs
also this is because the conservatives know that too much democracy will bugger them up. we wouldn't want the swivel eyed loons (ie.. rank and file membership) voting for leader now would we? better to keep it in the old boys club.
posted by lalochezia at 4:21 AM on July 11, 2016
also this is because the conservatives know that too much democracy will bugger them up. we wouldn't want the swivel eyed loons (ie.. rank and file membership) voting for leader now would we? better to keep it in the old boys club.
posted by lalochezia at 4:21 AM on July 11, 2016
the irony of "let the country decide" re brexit vs choosing the current pm not lost on me or others
although I am sympathetic to some good old fashioned tyranny after seeing the labour party implode
one vote, one issue , one time
posted by lalochezia at 4:23 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
although I am sympathetic to some good old fashioned tyranny after seeing the labour party implode
one vote, one issue , one time
posted by lalochezia at 4:23 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The Tory party are the most machiavellian bunch of individuals in the country, oft described as the most sophisticated electorate there is. I really do wonder if this whole charade was a ruse to keep Gove out of power once Boris had fallen on his sword.
Is that the faint whiff of George (still unresigned) Osborne I can smell.
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:25 AM on July 11, 2016
Is that the faint whiff of George (still unresigned) Osborne I can smell.
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:25 AM on July 11, 2016
Very disappointed that Prescott's Twitter banner isn't the photo of him punching that guy who threw that egg at him so many years ago.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:28 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:28 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yep, May it is. 1922 committee has bunged the shiny metal hat on.
posted by Devonian at 4:32 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Devonian at 4:32 AM on July 11, 2016
Meanwhile, Angela Eagle has formally announced her leadership bid.
posted by rory at 4:32 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by rory at 4:32 AM on July 11, 2016
Leadsom says she has the support of less than 25% of the parliamentary party. That is not enough to run a strong, stable government, she says.
Well, there goes the theories that she was supposed to be the figurehead for a right-wing Momentum...
posted by effbot at 4:34 AM on July 11, 2016
Well, there goes the theories that she was supposed to be the figurehead for a right-wing Momentum...
posted by effbot at 4:34 AM on July 11, 2016
I repost here what I wrote earlier, and what the UK is in for:
Theresa May is an actual fascist. Smart and competent, but the tendency to crush the little person is there if you look at all.
"May supported the detention of David Miranda, partner of Wikileaks journalist Glenn Greenwald under the Terrorism Act 2000, saying that critics of the Metropolitan Police action needed to "think about what they are condoning"
She wants to repeal the human rights act, and withdraw from the ECHR.
She's completely pro state surveilance.
posted by lalochezia at 4:34 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Theresa May is an actual fascist. Smart and competent, but the tendency to crush the little person is there if you look at all.
"May supported the detention of David Miranda, partner of Wikileaks journalist Glenn Greenwald under the Terrorism Act 2000, saying that critics of the Metropolitan Police action needed to "think about what they are condoning"
She wants to repeal the human rights act, and withdraw from the ECHR.
She's completely pro state surveilance.
posted by lalochezia at 4:34 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
god these fuckers are efficient. ranks closed, shields set, spears forward, everyone set for demolition of what few rights we have left.
posted by lalochezia at 4:37 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by lalochezia at 4:37 AM on July 11, 2016
Yup. The Tory machine in full steam is a sight to behold.
posted by pharm at 4:38 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by pharm at 4:38 AM on July 11, 2016
the 1922 Committee (suspiciously Bolshy name IMO)
Or imperialistic -- 1922 was when the British Empire was at its peak size :-)
posted by effbot at 4:39 AM on July 11, 2016
Or imperialistic -- 1922 was when the British Empire was at its peak size :-)
posted by effbot at 4:39 AM on July 11, 2016
Michael Gove and John Redwood now closing ranks and issuing statements of support.
I wish the Labour party was half as organised as these backstabbing, unprincipled bastards.
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:43 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wish the Labour party was half as organised as these backstabbing, unprincipled bastards.
posted by brilliantmistake at 4:43 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Theresa May is the new Gordon Brown, PM by internal machinations.
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:44 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Mister Bijou at 4:44 AM on July 11, 2016
Theresa May is an actual fascist. Smart and competent, but the tendency to crush the little person is there if you look at all.
And she was still the one we had to hope won as the more liberal option. Truly through the looking glass.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:49 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
And she was still the one we had to hope won as the more liberal option. Truly through the looking glass.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:49 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Friend posted this on Facebook:
Andrea Leadsom pulling out of the race for PM has made the £ bounce and set the FTSE 100 off on what's expected to be a bull run because the only candidate left Theresa May (who campaigned to remain) offers a marshmallow soft version of brexit where we all keep freedom of trade and movement.
So basically, nothing much may have changed over the past month other than loads of racist attacks, the pound shitting the bed and loads of Tory and Labour MPs committing career suicide. Smashing. Oh, and we may quit human rights conventions and bring back hanging, but at least we can afford to holiday abroad again now.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:50 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Andrea Leadsom pulling out of the race for PM has made the £ bounce and set the FTSE 100 off on what's expected to be a bull run because the only candidate left Theresa May (who campaigned to remain) offers a marshmallow soft version of brexit where we all keep freedom of trade and movement.
So basically, nothing much may have changed over the past month other than loads of racist attacks, the pound shitting the bed and loads of Tory and Labour MPs committing career suicide. Smashing. Oh, and we may quit human rights conventions and bring back hanging, but at least we can afford to holiday abroad again now.
posted by MattWPBS at 4:50 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure if this is a universal thing or just a weird habit that arose amongst my teenage friends, but when we were trying to figure out who had to perform an unpleasant task, one of us would discretely put his finger on top of his nose. As soon as you noticed somebody had done that, you had to put your own finger on your nose. And the last person to notice this was going on and touch their own nose would get stuck with whatever the unpleasant task was.
As far as I can tell, this is pretty much how the Tories have chosen our next Prime Minister.
posted by yankeefog at 4:52 AM on July 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
As far as I can tell, this is pretty much how the Tories have chosen our next Prime Minister.
posted by yankeefog at 4:52 AM on July 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
If someone lit a fire under Labour's arses (like May this week calling for an autumn GE), any estimates on how long Labour would take to get its shit together -- assuming Eagle's bid is successful?
posted by Quagkapi at 4:55 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Quagkapi at 4:55 AM on July 11, 2016
Let's not forget that May also oversaw the changes to immigration rules that have seen non-EU citizens kicked out for earning less than £35K, which is about £8K more than the median wage; and even British citizens forced to live elsewhere if they don't earn £18,600+ and want to stay with their partner (or £22,400+ if they want to stay with their partner and child - more if they have more kids).
And she says she's committed to implementing Brexit as PM, so the legal and parliamentary paths to remaining are likely to remain the roads not taken.
There's really no upside, is there?
posted by rory at 5:00 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
And she says she's committed to implementing Brexit as PM, so the legal and parliamentary paths to remaining are likely to remain the roads not taken.
There's really no upside, is there?
posted by rory at 5:00 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
If someone lit a fire under Labour's arses (like May this week calling for an autumn GE), any estimates on how long Labour would take to get its shit together -- assuming Eagle's bid is successful?
Given their performance during the Con/Dem government, "more than five years" would be a fair call.
posted by rory at 5:02 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Given their performance during the Con/Dem government, "more than five years" would be a fair call.
posted by rory at 5:02 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
any estimates on how long Labour would take to get its shit together
Somebody stole some of their shit?
From May's speech this morning in Birmingham (pre-Leadsom news)
May stresses her desire to address inequality.
Somebody stole some of their shit?
From May's speech this morning in Birmingham (pre-Leadsom news)
May stresses her desire to address inequality.
Right now, if you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white. If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else to go to university. If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately. If you’re a woman, you still earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s too often not enough help to hand. If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home.May says she wants workers represented on company boards.
So if I’m prime minister, we’re going to change that system [of corporate governance] - and we’re going to have not just consumers represented on company boards, but workers as well.posted by Mister Bijou at 5:13 AM on July 11, 2016
If someone lit a fire under Labour's arses (like May this week calling for an autumn GE), any estimates on how long Labour would take to get its shit together -- assuming Eagle's bid is successful?
At this point I think a snap election might be the only thing that will keep the Labour party intact. I mean they wouldn't win but it might focus minds a little bit.
Of course to do it May would have to get Labour MPs to agree to repeal the Fixed Parliaments Act (unless she passes a no confidence vote in herself).
posted by brilliantmistake at 5:21 AM on July 11, 2016
At this point I think a snap election might be the only thing that will keep the Labour party intact. I mean they wouldn't win but it might focus minds a little bit.
Of course to do it May would have to get Labour MPs to agree to repeal the Fixed Parliaments Act (unless she passes a no confidence vote in herself).
posted by brilliantmistake at 5:21 AM on July 11, 2016
The Tory party is perfectly capable of doing that if that’s what it takes.
posted by pharm at 5:24 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by pharm at 5:24 AM on July 11, 2016
From May's speech this morning in Birmingham
Also:
posted by effbot at 5:29 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also:
May says workers and communities have a stake in big companies. Two years ago AstraZeneca was almost sold to Pfizer. She says she wants to the UK to have an industrial strategy that would stop takeovers like this happening.Temporarily forgetting that Astra was a large Swedish company before being "taken over" by a UK company, who promptly shut down parts of the Swedish unit (including shutting down all R&D in 2012).
posted by effbot at 5:29 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
May stresses her desire to address inequality.
Right now, if you’re born poor, you will die on average nine years earlier than others. If you’re black, you’re treated more harshly by the criminal justice system than if you’re white. If you’re a white, working-class boy, you’re less likely than anybody else to go to university. If you’re at a state school, you’re less likely to reach the top professions than if you’re educated privately. If you’re a woman, you still earn less than a man. If you suffer from mental health problems, there’s too often not enough help to hand. If you’re young, you’ll find it harder than ever before to own your own home.
cough austerity cough unrelenting support of state violence cough NHS backdoor privatization cough straight-up privatization cough cough colonialism cough tories at root of much of this cough
posted by lalochezia at 5:32 AM on July 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Of course to do it May would have to get Labour MPs to agree to repeal the Fixed Parliaments Act (unless she passes a no confidence vote in herself).
Nope, doesn't need repealing, it needs a two thirds majority in the house to call an early election though. You know, Lib Dem policy, means you sensibly need a super-majority for exceptional decisions.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:34 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nope, doesn't need repealing, it needs a two thirds majority in the house to call an early election though. You know, Lib Dem policy, means you sensibly need a super-majority for exceptional decisions.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:34 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Fixed term parliament act aside (I'm sure it could be worked around) I could imagine May actually wanting an election while Labour are weak to give herself legitimacy. My guess is that as a Remain supporter who has to implement Brexit, she would prefer something like EEA membership and might therefore pitch that to the voters. She has to alienate someone, so it might as well be the extreme Brexit wing, who either have to fall in line with it or be tarred with the racism and xenophobia of UKIP.
posted by crocomancer at 5:36 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by crocomancer at 5:36 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Arron Banks' last three shudder-worthy tweets:
posted by Quagkapi at 5:38 AM on July 11, 2016
- - -I'm not one to cheerlead the Tories, but I hope he's as wrong as a person can be. Sleep badly, Arron Banks, and lose, lose, lose everything.
1 hr ago#Brexit won, so let's have a remain campaigning authoritarian in No. 10.It's the death of the Tory party today ...good
- - -
RT
@Arron_banks @andywigmore @UKIP #GameOn The people's army / movement for democracy & freedom just got a booster injection.
- - -
2 hrs agoPay attention @Arron_banks said it will now be @UKIP on steroids - here we goWell at least we know where we are , game on...
- - -
posted by Quagkapi at 5:38 AM on July 11, 2016
You mean like leaving the EU?
Yeah - think a simple 50%+1 would have got through with the Lib Dems still about?
Remember all those Labour supporters/MPs saying that we'd had no influence on the Tories in the coalition, and we'd just implemented whatever they asked for? I think that a compare and contrast of the start of the coalition compared to this government pretty much kills that myth now.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:55 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah - think a simple 50%+1 would have got through with the Lib Dems still about?
Remember all those Labour supporters/MPs saying that we'd had no influence on the Tories in the coalition, and we'd just implemented whatever they asked for? I think that a compare and contrast of the start of the coalition compared to this government pretty much kills that myth now.
posted by MattWPBS at 5:55 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
@Arron_banks @andywigmore @UKIP #GameOn The people's army / movement for democracy & freedom just got a booster injection.
I'm glad we've all learned the lessons on rhetoric from the death of Jo Cox, eh?
posted by jaduncan at 5:56 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm glad we've all learned the lessons on rhetoric from the death of Jo Cox, eh?
posted by jaduncan at 5:56 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So I am assuming that Murdoch/Wade has given May the thumbs up. I don't have time to read everything so I don't know the tenor of the reporting.
Laura Kuenssberg was on the radio this morning almost suppressing her glee that there would be a Labour leadership battle that Corbyn might not be able contend. Dianne Abbott managed to chuck in her 'Empire Strikes Back' comment, which is headline friendly. The whole thing reminded me once again that the establishment includes the fourth estate and they don't like the Corbyn effect at all. It also reminded me to read this Jacobin piece.
'Around 70 percent of Britain’s newspapers are owned by just three companies: Rupert Murdoch’s News UK, the Daily Mail’s General Trust, and Trinity Mirror. In broadcast media over 80 percent of the national audience share goes to Murdoch or to the BBC. This concentration of media ownership allows for a tiny clique in Britain to effectively control the flow of information to 65 million people. Their power to do so is not held to any meaningful account, and their willingness to use their position to subvert the democratic will should not be doubted.'
Meanwhile the NEC have to decide tomorrow whether Corbyn needs to get the backing of 51 MPs in order to run in the leadership contest.
posted by asok at 6:08 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Laura Kuenssberg was on the radio this morning almost suppressing her glee that there would be a Labour leadership battle that Corbyn might not be able contend. Dianne Abbott managed to chuck in her 'Empire Strikes Back' comment, which is headline friendly. The whole thing reminded me once again that the establishment includes the fourth estate and they don't like the Corbyn effect at all. It also reminded me to read this Jacobin piece.
'Around 70 percent of Britain’s newspapers are owned by just three companies: Rupert Murdoch’s News UK, the Daily Mail’s General Trust, and Trinity Mirror. In broadcast media over 80 percent of the national audience share goes to Murdoch or to the BBC. This concentration of media ownership allows for a tiny clique in Britain to effectively control the flow of information to 65 million people. Their power to do so is not held to any meaningful account, and their willingness to use their position to subvert the democratic will should not be doubted.'
Meanwhile the NEC have to decide tomorrow whether Corbyn needs to get the backing of 51 MPs in order to run in the leadership contest.
posted by asok at 6:08 AM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't believe anyone is even considering not letting Corbyn on the ballot, rules or not.
How can a new leader possibly gain confidence of the membership if they pull what will look like legal fidgy widginess to unseat Corbyn.
They desperately need to run a consensus building "let's all band together and win" campaign, because winning the leadership challenge vote isn't winning the leadership. You need the members and the MPs behind you.
Pushing Corbyn off through the courts won't achieve that.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:16 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
How can a new leader possibly gain confidence of the membership if they pull what will look like legal fidgy widginess to unseat Corbyn.
They desperately need to run a consensus building "let's all band together and win" campaign, because winning the leadership challenge vote isn't winning the leadership. You need the members and the MPs behind you.
Pushing Corbyn off through the courts won't achieve that.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:16 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
So I am assuming that Murdoch/Wade has given May the thumbs up.
THE SUN SAYS Leadsom’s lost her head: Tory leadership candidate has shown shes lacking in vital qualities that make a Prime Minister.
posted by rory at 6:25 AM on July 11, 2016
THE SUN SAYS Leadsom’s lost her head: Tory leadership candidate has shown shes lacking in vital qualities that make a Prime Minister.
posted by rory at 6:25 AM on July 11, 2016
I can't believe anyone is even considering not letting Corbyn on the ballot, rules or not.
From up-thread:
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:26 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
From up-thread:
There is a now mismatch between what Corbyn and his supporters believe; what the majority of Labour MPs believe; and what the wider community of traditional Labour voters believe.From a couple of weeks ago, but still worth a look: Why Jeremy Corbyn is not the Labour party's real problem
posted by Mister Bijou at 6:26 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't believe anyone is even considering not letting Corbyn on the ballot, rules or not.
How can a new leader possibly gain confidence of the membership if they pull what will look like legal fidgy widginess to unseat Corbyn.
That's why Andrea Eagle is the chosen one and not Chuka Umunna or Keir Starmer, the Eagle leadership will take all the flak from the members, the party will shed the undesirables and then, after a drubbing at the polls, we all head back to a Blairite centre ground.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:27 AM on July 11, 2016
How can a new leader possibly gain confidence of the membership if they pull what will look like legal fidgy widginess to unseat Corbyn.
That's why Andrea Eagle is the chosen one and not Chuka Umunna or Keir Starmer, the Eagle leadership will take all the flak from the members, the party will shed the undesirables and then, after a drubbing at the polls, we all head back to a Blairite centre ground.
posted by brilliantmistake at 6:27 AM on July 11, 2016
Honestly, the only hope Labour has of getting back on track is if Corbyn voluntarily removes himself from contention. There's no sign that he's willing to contemplate that, so I think Labour is thoroughly screwed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:30 AM on July 11, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:30 AM on July 11, 2016
If the Labour party drops Corbyn there's going to be a *lot* of new Green signups. If the PLP genuinely thinks they've an electoral hope in hell without a base of supporters they are totally delusional. We (and by "we" I mean left-wing identifying Labour supporters) don't want to bring about a Marxist revolution overnight. Just a simple tap on the brakes and a slow down of the inexorable destruction of the working class would be nice.
posted by longbaugh at 6:31 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by longbaugh at 6:31 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm so glad I watched the Ian Richardson House of Cards to prepare me for all this, insofar as one can be prepared.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:39 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:39 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
"the only hope Labour has of getting back on track is If Corbyn voluntarily removes himself from contention"...
AND nominates a successor (who is acceptable to both branches)
I'm not sure there is such a person though.
And quite possibly even then some of his more "enthusiastic" supporters might be claiming it was a conspiracy or some such.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:53 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
AND nominates a successor (who is acceptable to both branches)
I'm not sure there is such a person though.
And quite possibly even then some of his more "enthusiastic" supporters might be claiming it was a conspiracy or some such.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 6:53 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Read this well written shit and weep
Particularly
"From Robert Peel to Lady Thatcher, from Joseph Chamberlain to Winston Churchill, throughout history it has been the Conservative Party’s role to rise to the occasion and to take on the vested interests before us, to break up power when it is concentrated among the few, to lead on behalf of the people. It has been our strength as a Party that at moments of great national change, we have understood what needed to be done. And believe me, nobody should doubt that this is another of those moments of great national change."
BARFS
posted by lalochezia at 7:01 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Particularly
"From Robert Peel to Lady Thatcher, from Joseph Chamberlain to Winston Churchill, throughout history it has been the Conservative Party’s role to rise to the occasion and to take on the vested interests before us, to break up power when it is concentrated among the few, to lead on behalf of the people. It has been our strength as a Party that at moments of great national change, we have understood what needed to be done. And believe me, nobody should doubt that this is another of those moments of great national change."
BARFS
posted by lalochezia at 7:01 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Read this well written shit and weep
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:13 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
...Because we don’t just believe in markets, but in communities. We don’t just believe in individualism, but in society. We don’t hate the state, we value the role that only the state can play. We believe everybody – not just the privileged few – has a right to take ownership of what matters in their lives. We believe that each generation – of politicians, of business leaders, of us all – are custodians with a responsibility to pass on something better to the next generation...Get off my lawn.
posted by Mister Bijou at 7:13 AM on July 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Marienbad has posted a new thread on Cameron-May-Corbyn-Eagle.
posted by rory at 7:47 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by rory at 7:47 AM on July 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Believe in society? What, after Thatcher killed it?
posted by scruss at 7:53 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by scruss at 7:53 AM on July 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Having digested today's appetising political package as well as one can, I think the Leadsom decision was due to her being told that if she won, she'd be Corbynised by the MPs, and I wouldn't dismiss her being told some home truths bout her fitness to do the job anyway. Although there are some spectacularly stupid Tory MPs, there are also some very sharp ones and from the little I saw of Leadsom (which, pleasantly, will now probably be all I see of her) she didn't have the backbone to resist being told bluntly to go by some of the bigger guns.
Next up, I guess, we'll have a joint podium by Cameron/May, absolutely dripping with party unity, a couple of days of transition and then we'll finally find out exactly what she means by Brexit is Brexit. I'd like to think she's going to do something unexpected, like perhaps create a cabinet Brexit position maybe even with an SNP deputy - or at least offer, which could wrong-foot them a bit. We'll need a new Home Secretary too, and the Exchequer's going to be a fun one to fill. Will Gideon cling on? Will he want to (of course)? WIll anyone stomach that?
May will have a bit of a honeymoon period, even as a Remainer, so she may set things up quickly in ways that don't really appeal to the Leavers, but they'll know that if this falls apart then UKIP will piddle in their kedgeree.
As for Labour - I've made it a personal goal to ignore them until they show any signs of mattering. It's actually quite a relief to walk past that particular monkey cage without bothering to look in. Got enough angst to be getting on with.
posted by Devonian at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Next up, I guess, we'll have a joint podium by Cameron/May, absolutely dripping with party unity, a couple of days of transition and then we'll finally find out exactly what she means by Brexit is Brexit. I'd like to think she's going to do something unexpected, like perhaps create a cabinet Brexit position maybe even with an SNP deputy - or at least offer, which could wrong-foot them a bit. We'll need a new Home Secretary too, and the Exchequer's going to be a fun one to fill. Will Gideon cling on? Will he want to (of course)? WIll anyone stomach that?
May will have a bit of a honeymoon period, even as a Remainer, so she may set things up quickly in ways that don't really appeal to the Leavers, but they'll know that if this falls apart then UKIP will piddle in their kedgeree.
As for Labour - I've made it a personal goal to ignore them until they show any signs of mattering. It's actually quite a relief to walk past that particular monkey cage without bothering to look in. Got enough angst to be getting on with.
posted by Devonian at 8:19 AM on July 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
How can a new leader possibly gain confidence of the membership if they pull what will look like legal fidgy widginess to unseat Corbyn.
I guess you could ask Corbyn, he supposedly had no problems with the rules back when he was one of the MPs trying to get rid of Kinnock :-)
posted by effbot at 2:01 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I guess you could ask Corbyn, he supposedly had no problems with the rules back when he was one of the MPs trying to get rid of Kinnock :-)
posted by effbot at 2:01 PM on July 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
"The summer of 2016 will be remembered as a zeitgeist moment in British political and social history. Every Friday for four weeks a brand new weekly newspaper will play its part in this time of critical discussions. That paper is The New European."
posted by effbot at 3:25 AM on July 12, 2016
posted by effbot at 3:25 AM on July 12, 2016
A summary contrasting the line widely taken by the UK press on Nicola Sturgeon's overtures to the EU (summary: 'she get the cold shoulder') with the evidence on the ground from the people she talked with.
posted by rongorongo at 6:28 AM on July 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 6:28 AM on July 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Scottish press, even, right? The summary may be reaching a bit in how it reads things into the important actors being polite and diplomatic, and quotes somewhat arbitrarily chosen people elsewhere, but those headlines are really bizarre so I guess it averages out :-)
posted by effbot at 6:40 AM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by effbot at 6:40 AM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Boris is in charge of diplomacy and development? WTF is that a joke?
posted by infini at 12:33 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 12:33 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Guardian quotes Professor Tim Bale on Twitter saying
"Now let me think, what high-profile cabinet job can someone cock up in but ruin only their own career, not their party's electoral chances?"
If there's a Secretary of State for Brexit co-ordinating all the real negotiations, Boris can happily go around making smart-alecky comments to his counterparts, and scupper his career for good.
posted by Azara at 12:45 PM on July 13, 2016
"Now let me think, what high-profile cabinet job can someone cock up in but ruin only their own career, not their party's electoral chances?"
If there's a Secretary of State for Brexit co-ordinating all the real negotiations, Boris can happily go around making smart-alecky comments to his counterparts, and scupper his career for good.
posted by Azara at 12:45 PM on July 13, 2016
The new Brexit Minister wrote up the Brexit strategy only a couple days ago.
He sounds hopelessly naive. I can't help but think that May knows he will fail and since he is a Leaver, she cannot be accused of having acted in bad faith.
posted by vacapinta at 1:22 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
He sounds hopelessly naive. I can't help but think that May knows he will fail and since he is a Leaver, she cannot be accused of having acted in bad faith.
posted by vacapinta at 1:22 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Looks like they've found that "send them back" guy. "Mr Bowman added that he doesn’t regret buying the T-shirt but he does regret the offence caused. [...] He adds his daughter has asked the shop to stop making him T-shirts."
They forgot to ask him about the haircut.
posted by effbot at 8:46 AM on July 15, 2016
They forgot to ask him about the haircut.
posted by effbot at 8:46 AM on July 15, 2016
I suspect he's best described as a "local character". His whole life will be a struggle between his desire to attract people's attention and their desire to ignore him.
posted by Grangousier at 9:14 AM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 9:14 AM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
"May has said Article 50 will only be triggered when there was a UK-wide approach."
posted by zarq at 10:22 AM on July 15, 2016
posted by zarq at 10:22 AM on July 15, 2016
This article explains why Article 50 will never get triggered.
Scotland is actually helpful for May in that it provides her with an excuse.
posted by vacapinta at 10:59 AM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Scotland is actually helpful for May in that it provides her with an excuse.
posted by vacapinta at 10:59 AM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
Scotland is actually helpful for May in that it provides her with an excuse.
Are we sure Boris is in on this plan? I mean, what if he accidentally triggers the article?
posted by effbot at 3:27 PM on July 15, 2016
Are we sure Boris is in on this plan? I mean, what if he accidentally triggers the article?
posted by effbot at 3:27 PM on July 15, 2016
While there is some debate about the requirements for triggering Article 50, I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that a random MP could do so, it's a question of whether the PM can do it alone or needs the official support of Parliament.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:14 PM on July 15, 2016
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:14 PM on July 15, 2016
The Foreign Secretary is hardly a random MP. They are absolutely an appointed representative of the British government. The only question would be where you need the 'authorised' to come in. If it merely requires that it be an authorised representative, Boris could totally do it on his own. If it requires that it be a representative authorised to invoke article 50, that's different.
posted by Dysk at 2:37 AM on July 16, 2016
posted by Dysk at 2:37 AM on July 16, 2016
Yeah, that was a joke -- while he's trusted to fully represent the UK in the EU Foreign Affairs Council, that's "foreign" as in "outside the EU" so hopefully people will ignore any other comments from him :-)
(the council's next meeting is on Monday, btw, rumours are they've already cancelled a pre-meeting dinner tomorrow since nobody wanted to dine with a British brexit buffoon so soon after Nice)
posted by effbot at 7:01 AM on July 16, 2016
(the council's next meeting is on Monday, btw, rumours are they've already cancelled a pre-meeting dinner tomorrow since nobody wanted to dine with a British brexit buffoon so soon after Nice)
posted by effbot at 7:01 AM on July 16, 2016
"Our analysis suggests that individual demographics had a huge effect, but it also points out that concerns about immigration and long-run decline in manufacturing and related sectors played an important role in deciding the outcome. And the fact that Scotland stands out as being radically different from England and Wales, suggests that perhaps the political dimension was important as well."
LSE: Who voted Leave?
posted by Helga-woo at 3:12 PM on July 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
LSE: Who voted Leave?
posted by Helga-woo at 3:12 PM on July 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
EU Said to Eye ‘Nuclear Option’ to Force May’s Hand on Exit
meanwhile...
An independent Scotland inside the EU would be an economic powerhouse
posted by rongorongo at 4:05 AM on July 19, 2016
meanwhile...
An independent Scotland inside the EU would be an economic powerhouse
posted by rongorongo at 4:05 AM on July 19, 2016
At least seven private actions arguing that only parliament, and not the prime minister, has the authority to invoke article 50 have been identified to the court.
posted by vacapinta at 4:28 AM on July 19, 2016
posted by vacapinta at 4:28 AM on July 19, 2016
Remain's day in court
JPMorgan’s Malcolm Barr meanwhile argues that whatever Nicola Sturgeon may believe Scotland does not have a veto, something that will be shown by the correct interpretation of the so-called Sewel Convention, which dictates that Westminster does not legislate in areas that encroach on devolved powers unless there is an explicit consent from the regional Parliament to do so.Does Scotland have a veto?
According to Barr, the convention has not been in place long enough to be seen as an absolute barrier to an Article 50 submission. “Breaking the Sewel Convention will provide a vivid demonstration of where power in the UK really lies. But the majority of politicians are unequivocal about the idea that the referendum result constitutes an instruction from the British people which must be implemented,” says Barr. The interests of a regional parliament which represents no more than 11 per cent of the population are consequently unlikely to be allowed to inhibit the beliefs of the majority.
On Sunday, [Sturgeon] said there may be a way for Scotland to remain inside the EU and the UK, even if England and Wales sever their ties with Europe.posted by kliuless at 6:32 AM on July 19, 2016
It is hard to see how such a compromise can be achieved. True, there are some states that have part of their territory inside the EU and part outside. Denmark is a member of the EU while Greenland, part of the Danish realm, is not.
However, applying such a situation in the UK’s case — what has come to be called a “reverse Greenland” — would be far more complicated. Here, it would mean that the majority of the UK population was outside the EU while only a minority stayed within the union. It would create huge problems for the management of the Scotland-England land border, with different work visa arrangements and tariff controls. And other parts of the UK — London, for example — could end up asking for the same arrangement as the Scots.
What is not in doubt is that Scotland has a strong opportunity to influence the Brexit talks — and perhaps even to push back the moment when Article 50 is triggered.
Dear Boris Johnson: here's my 10-step guide to being Foreign Secretary - William Hague
posted by infini at 6:41 AM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 6:41 AM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
For polling and stats nerds, UK Polling Report has a long post on the referendum polling:
Telephone and online polls told very different stories – if one paid more attention to telephone polls then Remain appeared to have a robust lead (and many in the media did, having bought into a “phone polls are more accurate” narrative that turned out to be wholly wrong). If one had paid more attention to online polls the race would have appeared consistently neck-and-neck. If one made the – perfectly reasonable – assumption that the actual result would be somewhere in between phone and online, one would still have ended up expecting a Remain victory...posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:32 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
In fact the final result was not somewhere in between telephone and online at all. Online was closer to the final result, and far from being in between the actual result was more Leave than all of them...
Putting aside the growing importance of sampling mobile phones, landline surveys and face-to-face surveys do both depend on the interviewee being at home at a civilised time and willing to take part. It’s more questionable why it should be a suitable proxy for the sort of person willing to join an online panel and take part in online surveys that can be done on any internet device at any old time...
In summary, it looks as though attempts to improve turnout modelling since the general election have not improved matters – if anything the opposite was the case. The risk of basing turnout models on past voting behaviour at elections or the demographic patterns of turnout at past elections has always been what would happen if patterns of turnout changed...
During the campaign Steve Fisher and Alan Renwick wrote an interesting piece about how most referendum polls in the past have underestimated support for the status quo, presumably because of late swing or don’t knows breaking for remain. Pollsters were conscious of this and rather than just ignore don’t knows in their final polls, the majority of pollsters attempted to model how don’t knows would vote... In every case these adjustments helped remain, and in every case this made things less accurate...
Everyone keeps talking about Greenland, but it is part of the Kingdom of Denmark like Man is part the British Isles, not like Scotland is part of the UK.
posted by Dysk at 1:41 AM on July 20, 2016
posted by Dysk at 1:41 AM on July 20, 2016
cross-posting from the Nice attack and Turkish coup attempt threads: The World is Stuck in an Endless Death Spiral.
So much stuff keeps on happening – wars and coups and the sheer constant idiocy of the elections on both sides of the Atlantic – that no horror can remain horrifying for long. Almost without anyone noticing, it's gone from being a vicious tear in the fabric of life into just another miserable part of that fabric.
History, Marx said, progresses by its bad side. But Marx, still full of his Hegelian optimism, lived in a world where history had its good side, too. Now, the procedure is different, a dialectic of suffocating evil. The worst always happens, but when it does it's always in response to itself. [...] Every turn in the cycle justifies itself by the one that came before, but it's a single movement, one vast lurch towards collapse.
And once you notice the pattern, you start seeing it everywhere. [...] In Britain, the right-wing enforces the impression that every indignity in life is caused by migration, and when people start believing it our pragmatic liberals decide that this is such a reasonable concern that the only way to defeat the right is to start pandering to racism. [...] No hope, no respite. The bad side is always fighting itself, and it always wins.
posted by progosk at 2:37 PM on July 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
So much stuff keeps on happening – wars and coups and the sheer constant idiocy of the elections on both sides of the Atlantic – that no horror can remain horrifying for long. Almost without anyone noticing, it's gone from being a vicious tear in the fabric of life into just another miserable part of that fabric.
History, Marx said, progresses by its bad side. But Marx, still full of his Hegelian optimism, lived in a world where history had its good side, too. Now, the procedure is different, a dialectic of suffocating evil. The worst always happens, but when it does it's always in response to itself. [...] Every turn in the cycle justifies itself by the one that came before, but it's a single movement, one vast lurch towards collapse.
And once you notice the pattern, you start seeing it everywhere. [...] In Britain, the right-wing enforces the impression that every indignity in life is caused by migration, and when people start believing it our pragmatic liberals decide that this is such a reasonable concern that the only way to defeat the right is to start pandering to racism. [...] No hope, no respite. The bad side is always fighting itself, and it always wins.
posted by progosk at 2:37 PM on July 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've noticed that there's been notably fewer pieces/news on Brexit this last week on the Guardian (UK version). That's the only UK source I regularly read (and, again, the UK not the international version).
Nothing I've seen since the vote has changed what I think are the most essential facts of the situation. I don't think that anyone in the UK was actually prepared for a Leave result, even many of the Leave partisans are unsure how it will actually work or if it would improve any of the things they wanted to improve, what the Leave partisans want the EU has repeatedly and angrily made clear is absolutely not possible (open market without free movement), it really will end up being political poison for every UK politician involved in actually doing it, and -- a point much neglected -- while most of the EU is really, really annoyed with the UK about this, they also (even if they are trying to spin this the other way) are very nervous about the precedent. Also, the issue of Scotland puts attention on exactly the sorts of things the EU wants to keep contained, not to mention that the EU will not fail to be involved in having to manage problems associated with a destabilized NI. Finally, the referendum was not legally binding, Article 50 has to be invoked "constitutionally", and there are serious problems with the idea that the PM could just send a letter to the EU and begin an irrevocable two-year process that ends with the UK leaving the EU, completely independent of Parliament.
All of which is to say that I see vast swathes of vested interest to find a way to back out of Brexit. I also see that there is a huge amount of vested interest by many of the same parties to not be seen to be trying to find a way out of Brexit at this early juncture. That's true for the EU, too -- I think they don't actually want the UK to leave (on balance), but they sure as hell don't want to reward this behavior. The more pressure they bring to bear now without actually forcing Brexit, the better for them. So talking about how they might invoke Article 7, but that many don't want to or don't think it would be justifiable, sends the right message -- hard-line, but not so hard-line that May decides that she actually needs to pull the trigger now.
I know I'm just saying something that is conventional wisdom in some quarters -- though I've been saying this since the third day after the vote -- but just about everyone's interests are best served by kicking the can down the road for as long as possible and then deciding what to do after everyone has had a good, long think. And I keep reading that this is a very British solution to this sort of problem. So how can it fail to be what actually transpires?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:28 AM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nothing I've seen since the vote has changed what I think are the most essential facts of the situation. I don't think that anyone in the UK was actually prepared for a Leave result, even many of the Leave partisans are unsure how it will actually work or if it would improve any of the things they wanted to improve, what the Leave partisans want the EU has repeatedly and angrily made clear is absolutely not possible (open market without free movement), it really will end up being political poison for every UK politician involved in actually doing it, and -- a point much neglected -- while most of the EU is really, really annoyed with the UK about this, they also (even if they are trying to spin this the other way) are very nervous about the precedent. Also, the issue of Scotland puts attention on exactly the sorts of things the EU wants to keep contained, not to mention that the EU will not fail to be involved in having to manage problems associated with a destabilized NI. Finally, the referendum was not legally binding, Article 50 has to be invoked "constitutionally", and there are serious problems with the idea that the PM could just send a letter to the EU and begin an irrevocable two-year process that ends with the UK leaving the EU, completely independent of Parliament.
All of which is to say that I see vast swathes of vested interest to find a way to back out of Brexit. I also see that there is a huge amount of vested interest by many of the same parties to not be seen to be trying to find a way out of Brexit at this early juncture. That's true for the EU, too -- I think they don't actually want the UK to leave (on balance), but they sure as hell don't want to reward this behavior. The more pressure they bring to bear now without actually forcing Brexit, the better for them. So talking about how they might invoke Article 7, but that many don't want to or don't think it would be justifiable, sends the right message -- hard-line, but not so hard-line that May decides that she actually needs to pull the trigger now.
I know I'm just saying something that is conventional wisdom in some quarters -- though I've been saying this since the third day after the vote -- but just about everyone's interests are best served by kicking the can down the road for as long as possible and then deciding what to do after everyone has had a good, long think. And I keep reading that this is a very British solution to this sort of problem. So how can it fail to be what actually transpires?
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:28 AM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I keep reading that this is a very British solution to this sort of problem.
There are some interesting parallels with the UK's adoption of the metric system. Over here we fill up our car with litres of petrol - but measure their economy in miles per gallon. Distances are in miles - unless we are hiking when they are in kilometres. We weigh our groceries in kilos - but ourselves in lbs (well.. stones). And all this fannying about with the adoption of foreign measurement systems extends all the way back to the Magna Carta - we have a habit of getting half way through the implementation before getting cold feet.
But Brexit is has a much higher impact than metrication. For employers, investors, expat Brits, EU citizens in the UK, Scotland, etc - it is a sword of Damocles. So kicking the can is not a safe solution for the government in this case: they need to provide certainty as soon as possible (not easy) and then get people to trust them on their re-assurance of certainty (still harder).
posted by rongorongo at 2:07 AM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are some interesting parallels with the UK's adoption of the metric system. Over here we fill up our car with litres of petrol - but measure their economy in miles per gallon. Distances are in miles - unless we are hiking when they are in kilometres. We weigh our groceries in kilos - but ourselves in lbs (well.. stones). And all this fannying about with the adoption of foreign measurement systems extends all the way back to the Magna Carta - we have a habit of getting half way through the implementation before getting cold feet.
But Brexit is has a much higher impact than metrication. For employers, investors, expat Brits, EU citizens in the UK, Scotland, etc - it is a sword of Damocles. So kicking the can is not a safe solution for the government in this case: they need to provide certainty as soon as possible (not easy) and then get people to trust them on their re-assurance of certainty (still harder).
posted by rongorongo at 2:07 AM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yesterday morning Radio 4's Today Programme featured some vox pops from what they called "Brexit Street", some southern English town that voted 65%-ish to leave, and people were still saying immigration, immigration, immigration, that this will be better for the economy, will mean more jobs for our kids/grandkids, and all the other pre-referendum Leave arguments. One of the vox-pop leavers still went on about Turkey's accession to the EU being imminent, even though they must have been recorded after the failed coup and the start of Erdogan's crackdown, which mean there's approximately zero chance of Turkish accession to the EU for another generation at least.
Another vox pop thing on TV showed a leave voter saying that it might take ten years for the economy to recover, but then Britain would be better off. I can't fathom that position; it's like saying "yes, I'll spend the next ten years on the dole, but then I'll get a good job so it's all right". What about all the people who'll suffer during the next ten years? This blithe assumption that it somehow won't affect them personally... and these are ordinary working Brits, not wealthy types who are in a better position to ride it out. You only get four or five decades in a working lifetime, and the last one has been pretty hard for a lot of people in Britain as it is, so why you would actively volunteer for another...
And for one of the speakers, at least, it sounded as if it was because they hated the idea of asylum seekers getting any sort of support from the state, as if they're getting some sort of free ride. No thought that an asylum seeker given a chance to find their feet would repay that modest initial support many times over in taxes and other contributions to the UK. No understanding of what being a refugee actually means.
posted by rory at 2:59 AM on July 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
Another vox pop thing on TV showed a leave voter saying that it might take ten years for the economy to recover, but then Britain would be better off. I can't fathom that position; it's like saying "yes, I'll spend the next ten years on the dole, but then I'll get a good job so it's all right". What about all the people who'll suffer during the next ten years? This blithe assumption that it somehow won't affect them personally... and these are ordinary working Brits, not wealthy types who are in a better position to ride it out. You only get four or five decades in a working lifetime, and the last one has been pretty hard for a lot of people in Britain as it is, so why you would actively volunteer for another...
And for one of the speakers, at least, it sounded as if it was because they hated the idea of asylum seekers getting any sort of support from the state, as if they're getting some sort of free ride. No thought that an asylum seeker given a chance to find their feet would repay that modest initial support many times over in taxes and other contributions to the UK. No understanding of what being a refugee actually means.
posted by rory at 2:59 AM on July 21, 2016 [6 favorites]
There are some interesting parallels with the UK's adoption of the metric system.
I don't know if it has anything to do with the Magna Carta but you also drive automobiles on the left side of the road, but climb stairs and walk through hallways on the right. I felt somehow vindicated when I noticed this, that the wear patterns on the staircases are the same as in the US.
posted by XMLicious at 3:22 AM on July 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it has anything to do with the Magna Carta but you also drive automobiles on the left side of the road, but climb stairs and walk through hallways on the right.
Driving and walking on opposite sides is sensible (but not universal here - see TfL's "stand on the right" nonsense) as you want to be walking towards and thus facing traffic on your side of the road, in order to react sensibly to it. You want the giant chunks of metal hurtling down the road from behind you to be the ones on the other side of the road to you. It's also far from a British thing (even if the Brits have got it the wrong way round) - the Danish highway code has you drive on the right but walk on the left.
posted by Dysk at 4:50 AM on July 21, 2016
Driving and walking on opposite sides is sensible (but not universal here - see TfL's "stand on the right" nonsense) as you want to be walking towards and thus facing traffic on your side of the road, in order to react sensibly to it. You want the giant chunks of metal hurtling down the road from behind you to be the ones on the other side of the road to you. It's also far from a British thing (even if the Brits have got it the wrong way round) - the Danish highway code has you drive on the right but walk on the left.
posted by Dysk at 4:50 AM on July 21, 2016
If you encounter a car that's driving down a staircase it's a good idea to be on the opposite side too.
posted by XMLicious at 4:59 AM on July 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 4:59 AM on July 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
You develop god habits by applying them everywhere. Condition people to walk on the [opposite side to what cars drive on] on the stairs, they're more likely to do it by default in contexts where it matters. Besides, given that we're enforcing a walk on one side system for the stairs and so on anyway, why not make it consistent with similar rules in other contexts?
posted by Dysk at 5:55 AM on July 21, 2016
posted by Dysk at 5:55 AM on July 21, 2016
Proceeding on the right doesn't require conditioning because it's integral within the fundamental nature and proper order of the universe. Speaking of God habits, the Almighty drives his Celestial Jalopy on the right upon the Streets of Heaven, and as humans are made in His image it is our wont to do as well; except for those who are corrupted. The Mark of Cain is in fact the twisted and unholy desire to drive on the left, and to indulge other abhorrent and misbegotten appetites such as eating Turkish Delight and Morris dancing.
Also dusting popcorn with sugar instead of salt is a bit weird, but God probably doesn't really mind that one so much.
posted by XMLicious at 6:38 AM on July 21, 2016
Also dusting popcorn with sugar instead of salt is a bit weird, but God probably doesn't really mind that one so much.
posted by XMLicious at 6:38 AM on July 21, 2016
Curse you bilingual swipe keyboard!
posted by Dysk at 6:43 AM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 6:43 AM on July 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
UK economy shrinking at fastest rate since 2009 after Brexit vote.
posted by rory at 2:29 AM on July 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rory at 2:29 AM on July 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
UK economy shrinking at fastest rate since 2009 after Brexit vote.
Which will make the leavers happy, I guess, since a crap economy may cause immigration to fall with as much as 58% percent.
posted by effbot at 4:22 AM on July 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which will make the leavers happy, I guess, since a crap economy may cause immigration to fall with as much as 58% percent.
posted by effbot at 4:22 AM on July 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it has anything to do with the Magna Carta but you also drive automobiles on the left side of the road, but climb stairs and walk through hallways on the right. I felt somehow vindicated when I noticed this, that the wear patterns on the staircases are the same as in the US.
It's mostly to do with the genetic makeup of people in the UK - most of whom are right-handed - and, bizarrely, jousting.
The traditional jousting arena from days of yore had opponents charging at each other from the left because it was more comfortable to use your dominant hand to to wield the joust to topple your opponent while reining your steed with your left. This cultural behaviour just happened to carry down to how we manage our vehicles.
Brits stand on the right on escalators because they use their right, dominant, hand to steady themselves when returning from a football match or the pub. Sometimes even the theatre.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:41 AM on July 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's mostly to do with the genetic makeup of people in the UK - most of whom are right-handed - and, bizarrely, jousting.
The traditional jousting arena from days of yore had opponents charging at each other from the left because it was more comfortable to use your dominant hand to to wield the joust to topple your opponent while reining your steed with your left. This cultural behaviour just happened to carry down to how we manage our vehicles.
Brits stand on the right on escalators because they use their right, dominant, hand to steady themselves when returning from a football match or the pub. Sometimes even the theatre.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 4:41 AM on July 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
and, bizarrely, jousting
Jousting is back – and nine other reasons to love Brexit Britain
English Heritage 'deadly serious' about bid to get jousting into Olympics
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:31 PM on July 22, 2016
Jousting is back – and nine other reasons to love Brexit Britain
English Heritage 'deadly serious' about bid to get jousting into Olympics
posted by Mister Bijou at 11:31 PM on July 22, 2016
Not even informal pre-negotiation talks for Britain, EU Commission VP says
posted by infini at 11:59 PM on July 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 11:59 PM on July 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
English Heritage 'deadly serious' about bid to get jousting into Olympics
Ok that's beautiful - don't know where to start. Either the owl perched on the knight's head, or gems like this:
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:33 AM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ok that's beautiful - don't know where to start. Either the owl perched on the knight's head, or gems like this:
“Horses being prey animals, they are naturally designed to run away from things, so to persuade it to run towards another large clanging thing at speed takes time,” Sewell said.Because if scaring the crap out of an animal isn't sportsmanship, then what is?
posted by Dr Dracator at 12:33 AM on July 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Because if scaring the crap out of an animal isn't sportsmanship, then what is?
I've spent a decade doing theatrical jousting, and the trick is that you don't use horses that are easily scared. That's not very difficult.
But the article is pretty funny. I'm not sure the journalist has ever been close to a full-size horse, otherwise they wouldn't describe an extra 20kg and galloping up to 30mph as requiring "enormous amounts of equestrian training". And women not allowed to compete until this year? WTF, England? What century do you live in?
posted by effbot at 7:25 AM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've spent a decade doing theatrical jousting, and the trick is that you don't use horses that are easily scared. That's not very difficult.
But the article is pretty funny. I'm not sure the journalist has ever been close to a full-size horse, otherwise they wouldn't describe an extra 20kg and galloping up to 30mph as requiring "enormous amounts of equestrian training". And women not allowed to compete until this year? WTF, England? What century do you live in?
posted by effbot at 7:25 AM on July 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
And women not allowed to compete until this year? WTF, England? What century do you live in?
You realize you're asking that in reference to jousting, right?
posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
You realize you're asking that in reference to jousting, right?
posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on July 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Stop blaming the old and the ignorant for Brexit:
The research behind the pretty charts is not misreported. It's just not being fully reported...posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:56 AM on July 27, 2016
It is the second table that gets the headline: "Those with no formal education are twice as likely to vote leave at those with university degree/in education". What proportion of Leave voters fall within this group? Just one per cent!
...Taking the extremes of age, 73 per cent of 18-24 years voted Remain, while 60 per cent of those aged over 65 voted Leave. Hence the narrative that the pro-EU youth of our society have had their futures ruined by OAPs who don't have to live with the consequences. What proportion of Leave and Remain voters are aged 18-24? Three per cent and eight per cent respectively. What proportion are aged over 65? Twenty-eight per cent and 20 per cent.
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Martin Kettle at the Guardian: What Boris Johnson said about Brexit – and what he really meant.
posted by rory at 8:22 AM on June 27, 2016