The Economics of Genius
June 30, 2016 4:40 AM Subscribe
Only two? Huh. Interesting.
posted by nevercalm at 5:02 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by nevercalm at 5:02 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
17-year-old Picassos
Picasso was technically accomplished from a young age but his early work, unsurprisingly, lacks personality. I mean is 20 years old (his blue period) considered too old now?
Rah rah Rimbaud
posted by ersatz at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Picasso was technically accomplished from a young age but his early work, unsurprisingly, lacks personality. I mean is 20 years old (his blue period) considered too old now?
Rah rah Rimbaud
posted by ersatz at 5:13 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm reminded of the Fantasies of Control conversation just a day or two ago. There is something awe inspiring about the disruption of genre, but when we are confronted with the lifetimes-spanning challenges of actual human social fabric, I am loathe to entrust the whole of our conceptual leaps to the ones who do their best before they've had time to figure the world out.
I know a lot about dance but I must have received an inadequate visual art education because I wasn't familiar with the Picasso he mentioned. When I looked it up I sighed audibly; of course the most famous painting is of a group of nude women. Who better to define what great art about women is than a young horny man, let alone who's never been married for decades to anyone.
Innovative concept bucking is miraculous and must not be the only way we move things forward because most problems most people have are best solved in other ways.
posted by an animate objects at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know a lot about dance but I must have received an inadequate visual art education because I wasn't familiar with the Picasso he mentioned. When I looked it up I sighed audibly; of course the most famous painting is of a group of nude women. Who better to define what great art about women is than a young horny man, let alone who's never been married for decades to anyone.
Innovative concept bucking is miraculous and must not be the only way we move things forward because most problems most people have are best solved in other ways.
posted by an animate objects at 5:36 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Only two? Huh. Interesting
There are 10 types of genius in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
posted by TedW at 5:39 AM on June 30, 2016 [30 favorites]
There are 10 types of genius in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
posted by TedW at 5:39 AM on June 30, 2016 [30 favorites]
I am a genius of the third kind.
posted by parki at 5:51 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by parki at 5:51 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Came in to question the 2 and discovered myriads of genii had already done so.
posted by infini at 6:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 6:14 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cool. But not really the economics of genius, more like applying the tools of an economist to art.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on June 30, 2016
Picasso figured out a young age that the secret to making people think you are a genius is shameless self-promotion.
posted by ovvl at 6:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 6:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [13 favorites]
Geniuses like Auguste Rodin, Mark Twain, and Alfred Hitchcock proceed by a lifetime of trial and error and thus do their important work much later in their careers.
You hear that ma, I still got time left, now let me get off the phone, so I can gobinge watch Game of Thrones from the beginning work!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
You hear that ma, I still got time left, now let me get off the phone, so I can go
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:15 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
GOD I DISLIKE THAT WIRED PAYWALLS PEOPLE WHO USE ADBLOCKERS
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:18 AM on June 30, 2016 [9 favorites]
GOD I DISLIKE THAT WIRED PAYWALLS PEOPLE WHO USE ADBLOCKERS
I couldn't submit to Wired's whims enough to finish reading the article, so if anyone can post a brief summary that would be nice.
posted by ovvl at 6:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
I couldn't submit to Wired's whims enough to finish reading the article, so if anyone can post a brief summary that would be nice.
posted by ovvl at 6:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
Whether you like economic theory and the methods used or not it - it does a pretty good job of providing some insights into to all manner of life - in this case art.
There is a fair amount of good that this has done for me personally. By putting the value of my own art and notariaty into his equations, I have calculated that my best works will be produced when I am 237.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is a fair amount of good that this has done for me personally. By putting the value of my own art and notariaty into his equations, I have calculated that my best works will be produced when I am 237.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:29 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think almost all of us are better off identifying with the mass - most of us are pretty ordinary and that's okay.
But seriously - "genius" is so class-linked.
First off, when I was reading the article I was thinking "huh, it makes me feel better to think that even a professional intellectual with a stable, interesting career in the field of his choice feels like he's not good enough", because as a secretary I constantly wish that I could have pursued the academic career that I wanted from childhood and I constantly feel inferior and stupid because I have not made anything of myself in that way. So now I can console myself that even if I'd parlayed my awesome GREs, etc, into a PhD, I'd probably still feel like I wasn't that smart.
Second, though, I know a number of really brilliant people who have led very ordinary lives. There are brilliant working class people who go through life being brilliant and poor. There are brilliant working class people who gut out some modest art or writing success but never really make it. There are brilliant working class people who flame out or drop out because all the scholarships in the world can't make them accepted by elite institutions.
And this all goes double for anyone with any other marginalization - plenty of mute inglorious Miltons who were too female or too not-white, etc, to even be seen as intelligent by the people around them.
"Genius" is incredibly contingent and situational and the ways we recognize it are biased hugely in favor of wealthy, white men.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 AM on June 30, 2016 [61 favorites]
But seriously - "genius" is so class-linked.
First off, when I was reading the article I was thinking "huh, it makes me feel better to think that even a professional intellectual with a stable, interesting career in the field of his choice feels like he's not good enough", because as a secretary I constantly wish that I could have pursued the academic career that I wanted from childhood and I constantly feel inferior and stupid because I have not made anything of myself in that way. So now I can console myself that even if I'd parlayed my awesome GREs, etc, into a PhD, I'd probably still feel like I wasn't that smart.
Second, though, I know a number of really brilliant people who have led very ordinary lives. There are brilliant working class people who go through life being brilliant and poor. There are brilliant working class people who gut out some modest art or writing success but never really make it. There are brilliant working class people who flame out or drop out because all the scholarships in the world can't make them accepted by elite institutions.
And this all goes double for anyone with any other marginalization - plenty of mute inglorious Miltons who were too female or too not-white, etc, to even be seen as intelligent by the people around them.
"Genius" is incredibly contingent and situational and the ways we recognize it are biased hugely in favor of wealthy, white men.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 AM on June 30, 2016 [61 favorites]
Some genius needs to figure out how many types of non-genius there are.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:43 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
This paragraph pretty much sums it up:
"What he has found is that genius – whether in art or architecture or even business – is not the sole province of 17-year-old Picassos and 22-year-old Andreessens. Instead, it comes in two very different forms, embodied by two very different types of people. “Conceptual innovators,” as Galenson calls them, make bold, dramatic leaps in their disciplines. They do their breakthrough work when they are young. Think Edvard Munch, Herman Melville, and Orson Welles. They make the rest of us feel like also-rans. Then there’s a second character type, someone who’s just as significant but trudging by comparison. Galenson calls this group “experimental innovators.” Geniuses like Auguste Rodin, Mark Twain, and Alfred Hitchcock proceed by a lifetime of trial and error and thus do their important work much later in their careers. Galenson maintains that this duality – conceptualists are from Mars, experimentalists are from Venus – is the core of the creative process. And it applies to virtually every field of intellectual endeavor, from painters and poets to economists."
Anyway...still waiting for my so-called genius to kick in already.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
"What he has found is that genius – whether in art or architecture or even business – is not the sole province of 17-year-old Picassos and 22-year-old Andreessens. Instead, it comes in two very different forms, embodied by two very different types of people. “Conceptual innovators,” as Galenson calls them, make bold, dramatic leaps in their disciplines. They do their breakthrough work when they are young. Think Edvard Munch, Herman Melville, and Orson Welles. They make the rest of us feel like also-rans. Then there’s a second character type, someone who’s just as significant but trudging by comparison. Galenson calls this group “experimental innovators.” Geniuses like Auguste Rodin, Mark Twain, and Alfred Hitchcock proceed by a lifetime of trial and error and thus do their important work much later in their careers. Galenson maintains that this duality – conceptualists are from Mars, experimentalists are from Venus – is the core of the creative process. And it applies to virtually every field of intellectual endeavor, from painters and poets to economists."
Anyway...still waiting for my so-called genius to kick in already.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:49 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
"everything comes in just two types" sets off Gladwellian just-so-story alarms for me
posted by thelonius at 6:51 AM on June 30, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 6:51 AM on June 30, 2016 [22 favorites]
except its clearly a model, not a description of the world. Should be read as: most things can be described as two types. This is a intentionally parsimonious and incomplete description of the world.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
GOD I DISLIKE THAT WIRED PAYWALLS PEOPLE WHO USE ADBLOCKERS
uBlock Origin for Chrome got past it.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
uBlock Origin for Chrome got past it.
posted by Fleebnork at 6:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
But seriously - "genius" is so class-linked.
Yes, and it depends on the parents you get in more ways than one. Mozart and Michael Jackson were both geniuses, with tyrant fathers that put them on the path as soon as they could stand. Both of their fathers had just enough money to fund a musical education, although it was a brutal homeschooling. Without those fathers, would they merely have been very good? Entertainers for friends and family at weddings? Who can say?
This is an interesting hypothesis, but I can't get behind it unless it's been controlled for gender. Here he only mentioned one woman, Maya Lin. And Mozart had a sister, very good herself. Was she his equal? We'll never know. Her father made her stop touring when she was a teenager, and she vanished into marriage, not even with the husband she had wanted.
Also, I'm not sure how genius is defined. Was Agatha Christie one? She set a standard not with any single book but a genre-defining body of work.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:09 AM on June 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
Yes, and it depends on the parents you get in more ways than one. Mozart and Michael Jackson were both geniuses, with tyrant fathers that put them on the path as soon as they could stand. Both of their fathers had just enough money to fund a musical education, although it was a brutal homeschooling. Without those fathers, would they merely have been very good? Entertainers for friends and family at weddings? Who can say?
This is an interesting hypothesis, but I can't get behind it unless it's been controlled for gender. Here he only mentioned one woman, Maya Lin. And Mozart had a sister, very good herself. Was she his equal? We'll never know. Her father made her stop touring when she was a teenager, and she vanished into marriage, not even with the husband she had wanted.
Also, I'm not sure how genius is defined. Was Agatha Christie one? She set a standard not with any single book but a genre-defining body of work.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:09 AM on June 30, 2016 [17 favorites]
GOD I DISLIKE THAT WIRED PAYWALLS PEOPLE WHO USE ADBLOCKERS
It blocks me even if I turn off my adblockers, so I almost instictively respons to wired articles from here with a quick Ctrl+A, Ctrl C. and then I can pop the text into notepad and read at my leisure.
The difference between the two types of genius seems to mirror the whole Popper vs Kuhn thing, arguing between big jumps in advancement in the state of the art vs incremental progress.
I've not seen it applied to art before.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:28 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
It blocks me even if I turn off my adblockers, so I almost instictively respons to wired articles from here with a quick Ctrl+A, Ctrl C. and then I can pop the text into notepad and read at my leisure.
The difference between the two types of genius seems to mirror the whole Popper vs Kuhn thing, arguing between big jumps in advancement in the state of the art vs incremental progress.
I've not seen it applied to art before.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 7:28 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
On some level I'm convinced that this theory is essentially meaningless chatter intended to assuage the gnawing fear of mortality that people get as they age, that oh God my life is nearly over and what have I done to change the world, as I so powerfully believed I would in my youth?
On the other hand I'm 35 now, so YES I BELIEVE YOUR GREAT THEORY
posted by penduluum at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
On the other hand I'm 35 now, so YES I BELIEVE YOUR GREAT THEORY
posted by penduluum at 7:31 AM on June 30, 2016 [7 favorites]
except its clearly a model, not a description of the world
makes no difference to me, it still sets off Gladwell alarm
posted by thelonius at 7:47 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
makes no difference to me, it still sets off Gladwell alarm
posted by thelonius at 7:47 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
It blocks me even if I turn off my adblockers
uMatrix is good in this case. A lot of adblock blockers will twig to you using a HOSTS file as well (because it checks whether the page has loaded certain items).
If you block first-party javascript on these sites, they can't even detect that you're not loading a bunch of things in the DOM. Almost all adblock-blockers are client-side javascript detectors (for now), so a more curated uMatrix type of blocking works wonders.
posted by chimaera at 7:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
uMatrix is good in this case. A lot of adblock blockers will twig to you using a HOSTS file as well (because it checks whether the page has loaded certain items).
If you block first-party javascript on these sites, they can't even detect that you're not loading a bunch of things in the DOM. Almost all adblock-blockers are client-side javascript detectors (for now), so a more curated uMatrix type of blocking works wonders.
posted by chimaera at 7:56 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Genius" is incredibly contingent and situational
Reminds me of that study about hiring bias against women and how it differs between fields; one of the patterns they found was that women are less likely to be offered a position that people perceive requires "genius" or exceptional intelligence (e.g. math) than one where people perceived hard work was more important (e.g. psychology).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Reminds me of that study about hiring bias against women and how it differs between fields; one of the patterns they found was that women are less likely to be offered a position that people perceive requires "genius" or exceptional intelligence (e.g. math) than one where people perceived hard work was more important (e.g. psychology).
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:59 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Genius" is incredibly contingent and situational and the ways we recognize it are biased hugely in favor of wealthy, white men.
True, but I don't think that necessarily colours the theory, more the medium in which genius is recognised. For instance, music in the 20th century was more or less redefined by African Americans, many of whom were immediately acknowledged as such. Charlie Parker and Jimi Hendrix come to mind.
I agree with you that our culture has a much larger problem recognising female genius. It took a very long time for anyone to acknowledge the impact Jane Austen had on the modern novel, a form that everyone has conveniently forgotten was most likely invented by a woman in the first place. He does mention Silvia Plath and Virginia Woolf, although George Eliot, Mary Shelley and the Brontes could have been name checked for their influence alone.
My first thought on reading this article was how does it apply to Kate Bush? Love her or hate her, she looms as large over contemporary music as Bowie and Lennon, and more consistent in the standard of her output than either of them. Is her genius the pioneering conceptualist of her early career, or the rigorous experimentalist in later years? Seems she had to be both before they let her into the boy's club.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 8:05 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
True, but I don't think that necessarily colours the theory, more the medium in which genius is recognised. For instance, music in the 20th century was more or less redefined by African Americans, many of whom were immediately acknowledged as such. Charlie Parker and Jimi Hendrix come to mind.
I agree with you that our culture has a much larger problem recognising female genius. It took a very long time for anyone to acknowledge the impact Jane Austen had on the modern novel, a form that everyone has conveniently forgotten was most likely invented by a woman in the first place. He does mention Silvia Plath and Virginia Woolf, although George Eliot, Mary Shelley and the Brontes could have been name checked for their influence alone.
My first thought on reading this article was how does it apply to Kate Bush? Love her or hate her, she looms as large over contemporary music as Bowie and Lennon, and more consistent in the standard of her output than either of them. Is her genius the pioneering conceptualist of her early career, or the rigorous experimentalist in later years? Seems she had to be both before they let her into the boy's club.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 8:05 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
as a secretary I constantly wish that I could have pursued the academic career that I wanted from childhood and I constantly feel inferior and stupid because I have not made anything of myself in that way.
Secretarial work is one of those jobs that seems like anybody can do it, but all you have to do is a) be one for awhile, or b) be in a position where the efficient and competent work of a secretary impacts your own work, to realize what bullshit that is. I have done both in my time, and have tremendous respect for people who do this work and do it well.
If you ever need an uplifting, "Ode to a Competent Office Staff" written to you, let me know.
posted by not that girl at 8:06 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
Secretarial work is one of those jobs that seems like anybody can do it, but all you have to do is a) be one for awhile, or b) be in a position where the efficient and competent work of a secretary impacts your own work, to realize what bullshit that is. I have done both in my time, and have tremendous respect for people who do this work and do it well.
If you ever need an uplifting, "Ode to a Competent Office Staff" written to you, let me know.
posted by not that girl at 8:06 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
GOD I DISLIKE THAT WIRED PAYWALLS PEOPLE WHO USE ADBLOCKERS
I have a stock email I send to sites that do this. It's pointless, and they don't care, and nobody has ever--EVER--responded. However, it irrationally makes me feel better, so I do it anyway:
I have a stock email I send to sites that do this. It's pointless, and they don't care, and nobody has ever--EVER--responded. However, it irrationally makes me feel better, so I do it anyway:
Dear [WEBSITE]:posted by dersins at 8:08 AM on June 30, 2016 [6 favorites]
I will disable my ad blocker when you and the rest of the ad-supported internet stop trying to cram down my throat an insane and unpredictable cocktail of audio, video, animation and random windows--a practice that inevitably crashes my browser whenever I am so presumptuous as to dare keep more than three or four tabs open simultaneously.
Let me know when you are able to serve me advertising that will behave in a way that is reasonably predictable, relatively noninvasive, and, preferably, that is confined to static media unless and until I choose to enable sound / video /motion.
For the time being, I suppose I'll just have to find a way to muddle through life without your content. Similarly, I imagine you will find a way to manage without my eyeballs and clicks-through.
Warmest regards,
[MY ACTUAL NAME]
"Genius" is... okay, so you know how in constitutional monarchies, there's a head of state that is formally invested with decisive power but who in practice is just a figurehead, with all the real work done by, and all the real power residing in, the government? Genius is the head of state. Genius a story we tell that allows us to understand cultural artifacts and their influence on the world in relatively simple individual and personal terms, even though really they're made through messy, complex institutions.
Wired markets itself as the magazine of the future, but all I could think while reading this was how retro it seems to be earnestly discussing the nature of genius. I guess this seems especially glaring because so much of the piece is given over to discussing abstract American modern art produced at exactly the moment where that particular artistic subculture was receiving a massive signal boost from the CIA — if it weren't for Cold War concerns, the shape of mid-20th-century art, and with it the types of art and artist from the period that get the "genius" label, would have been very different.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
Wired markets itself as the magazine of the future, but all I could think while reading this was how retro it seems to be earnestly discussing the nature of genius. I guess this seems especially glaring because so much of the piece is given over to discussing abstract American modern art produced at exactly the moment where that particular artistic subculture was receiving a massive signal boost from the CIA — if it weren't for Cold War concerns, the shape of mid-20th-century art, and with it the types of art and artist from the period that get the "genius" label, would have been very different.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:20 AM on June 30, 2016 [12 favorites]
I wish some genius would realize that the point of efficiency and automation is to reduce the workweek and bring on something like a Basic Personal Income, so that more people could nurture and develop their latent genius.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 8:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
> I wish some genius would realize that the point of efficiency and automation is to reduce the workweek and bring on something like a Basic Personal Income, so that more people could nurture and develop their latent genius.
You have a deep misconception about the point of efficiency and automation. You are describing the hypothetical point of efficiency and automation in a hypothetical alternate society. In the real world the point of efficiency and automation is to drive down the costs of production and thereby drive up the rate of profit for capital-holders.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
You have a deep misconception about the point of efficiency and automation. You are describing the hypothetical point of efficiency and automation in a hypothetical alternate society. In the real world the point of efficiency and automation is to drive down the costs of production and thereby drive up the rate of profit for capital-holders.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:27 AM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Contrast Said's idea of "late style". Some very unusual geniuses, like Shakespeare and BoB Dylan, do great work early on, tail off a bit, and then develop a completely new style late in life.
posted by Major Tom at 8:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Major Tom at 8:35 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I was totally distracted by "sliced and diced the numbers with his econometric ginsu knife".
Clumsy usage, and/but I ended up learning that Ginsu is still around, and Consumer Reports apparently think that they're a good deal.
Funny old world.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Clumsy usage, and/but I ended up learning that Ginsu is still around, and Consumer Reports apparently think that they're a good deal.
Funny old world.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 8:48 AM on June 30, 2016 [3 favorites]
Everybody has genius. The hard part is finding your aptitude and the opportunity to revel in it.
posted by touchstone033 at 9:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by touchstone033 at 9:17 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find it funny that Beethoven is listed as an example of a late-blooming type genius, seeing as he was paraded as a 7 year old piano prodigy.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:19 AM on June 30, 2016
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:19 AM on June 30, 2016
There are 10 types of genius in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
and those who know metafilter pages are utf-8.
posted by srboisvert at 9:57 AM on June 30, 2016
and those who know metafilter pages are utf-8.
posted by srboisvert at 9:57 AM on June 30, 2016
If you have problems with the definition of "genius" then just drop it. It's still a good model for when different people seem to hit their creative peak no matter how high that peak ends up being.
He looked at a bunch of people that pretty much everyone in the field agrees is important, that probably leaves out a lot of lesser known geniuses (and maybe that's a problem with his method) but at least by that definition of genius, there is a very clear pattern. Clear enough that I'm convinced it could be broadly applied to most people.
You just need to keep the usual caveats in mind with economic models. It's a model so it's wrong, that doesn't mean it's not useful. You're not really putting people into a box, you're describing one of the types of boxes that that person carries. Their personality is made up of a bunch of boxes and while the box might give you clues about what's in it, you don't really know until you open the box.
posted by VTX at 10:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
He looked at a bunch of people that pretty much everyone in the field agrees is important, that probably leaves out a lot of lesser known geniuses (and maybe that's a problem with his method) but at least by that definition of genius, there is a very clear pattern. Clear enough that I'm convinced it could be broadly applied to most people.
You just need to keep the usual caveats in mind with economic models. It's a model so it's wrong, that doesn't mean it's not useful. You're not really putting people into a box, you're describing one of the types of boxes that that person carries. Their personality is made up of a bunch of boxes and while the box might give you clues about what's in it, you don't really know until you open the box.
posted by VTX at 10:21 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I wish some genius would realize that the point of efficiency and automation is to reduce the workweek and bring on something like a Basic Personal Income, so that more people could nurture and develop their latent genius.
You mean John Maynard Keynes?
But geniuses don't make policy.
posted by politikitty at 10:44 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
You mean John Maynard Keynes?
But geniuses don't make policy.
posted by politikitty at 10:44 AM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Honestly? It's not so much that I quibble with the definition of "genius" so much as I think that "genius" as a concept is unimportant and uninteresting. The world is brimming with people with unique knacks and the potential to have extraordinarily clever ideas. The rare, interesting thing is access to the means of cultivating those knacks/realizing those ideas, and to the means of bringing those knacks/ideas to public attention. Access to these things is disjoint from genius.
With regard to the idea of modeling: the tactic of developing simplified models to explain or predict the behavior of systems involving humans is not always helpful. The human brain is very good at recognizing patterns; when we're exposed to very noisy data the patterns we pull out are often spurious, even when we make painstaking efforts to account for this in the design of research methodologies. Quantitative research in fields related to human behavior, and especially in fields related to aesthetics, tends to seem more authoritative than it is. Doubly so by the time it's reached the popular press. There are a lot of crucial questions raised by the conceptualist/experimentalist model that are left uninterrogated in this article, and apparently uninterrogated in the underlying research. Most pressingly, there's the question of whether this is a model for individual behavior ("there are two types of genius, one behaves this way and produces works at this age, the other behaves that way and produces works at that age") or a model for social behavior ("the artwork that tends to get promoted as genius in Europe and North America tends to be produced either by brash young boys with big concepts or thoughtful older boys with diligent work habits")? Are we talking about brains here, or are we talking about cultures?
The failure to engage with this sort of question feels very, very early-90s to me.
yeah okay I've got a chip on my shoulder about Wired, and about the whole great weird boy Silicon Valley scene it's embedded in; all that stuff just feels so old fashioned here in the 21st century...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
With regard to the idea of modeling: the tactic of developing simplified models to explain or predict the behavior of systems involving humans is not always helpful. The human brain is very good at recognizing patterns; when we're exposed to very noisy data the patterns we pull out are often spurious, even when we make painstaking efforts to account for this in the design of research methodologies. Quantitative research in fields related to human behavior, and especially in fields related to aesthetics, tends to seem more authoritative than it is. Doubly so by the time it's reached the popular press. There are a lot of crucial questions raised by the conceptualist/experimentalist model that are left uninterrogated in this article, and apparently uninterrogated in the underlying research. Most pressingly, there's the question of whether this is a model for individual behavior ("there are two types of genius, one behaves this way and produces works at this age, the other behaves that way and produces works at that age") or a model for social behavior ("the artwork that tends to get promoted as genius in Europe and North America tends to be produced either by brash young boys with big concepts or thoughtful older boys with diligent work habits")? Are we talking about brains here, or are we talking about cultures?
The failure to engage with this sort of question feels very, very early-90s to me.
yeah okay I've got a chip on my shoulder about Wired, and about the whole great weird boy Silicon Valley scene it's embedded in; all that stuff just feels so old fashioned here in the 21st century...
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:22 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
But seriously - "genius" is so class-linked.This. Who we rate as "geniuses" is one of the cornerstones of marginalisation, historically. The overwhelming majority of examples in this article are middle to upper class white males. Think of any of the fields most associated commonly with "genius", e.g. subatomic physicists, mathematicians, classical composers ... chess players. And there you will find some of the fields with the most enduring diversity problems, still, in modern universities, schools and organisations. Any analysis of "types of genius", or what it takes to create geniuses, is severely lacking if it does not take this legacy into account.
[...]
And this all goes double for anyone with any other marginalization - plenty of mute inglorious Miltons who were too female or too not-white, etc, to even be seen as intelligent by the people around them.
posted by iotic at 11:54 AM on June 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't really get the critiques--they are more or less criticizing this work for not asking a different question. This guy is asking: conditional on someone being considered a genius, can we more or less fit those people into a small number of groups that explain most of the variation? He seems to be able to do that pretty well. Generalizing to all forms of 'genius'--whatever that is, based on a sample tainted by a selection effect would be problematic, but the inquiry itself isn't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm the type of genius who didn't read the article and doesn't bother finishing thi
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:57 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:57 PM on June 30, 2016
Picasso is a genius. Frida Kahlo is a good worker and wife to another artist who was obviously so much more important than her.
Renoir is a genius. Mary Cassatt is a good worker.
Watson and Crick are geniuses. Barbara McClintock and Lynn Margulis are flaky girls with a good idea once in a while.
Charles Babbage is a genius. Ada Lovelace is a good worker (nevermind that she had a better idea of what a programmable computer would be capable of doing).
Otto Hahn is a genius. Lise Meitner is a good lab assistant. Ida Noddack had some ideas.
Isaac Newton is a genius. Émilie du Châtelet just translated the Principia to the vernacular.
Albert Einstein is a genius. Emmy Noether is... who?
To be a genius you have to be a man, basically.
posted by sukeban at 1:14 PM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
Renoir is a genius. Mary Cassatt is a good worker.
Watson and Crick are geniuses. Barbara McClintock and Lynn Margulis are flaky girls with a good idea once in a while.
Charles Babbage is a genius. Ada Lovelace is a good worker (nevermind that she had a better idea of what a programmable computer would be capable of doing).
Otto Hahn is a genius. Lise Meitner is a good lab assistant. Ida Noddack had some ideas.
Isaac Newton is a genius. Émilie du Châtelet just translated the Principia to the vernacular.
Albert Einstein is a genius. Emmy Noether is... who?
To be a genius you have to be a man, basically.
posted by sukeban at 1:14 PM on June 30, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm not a genius and not convinced that's even really a thing that exists other than as a social construct (which do exist, though not in the same way as certain other kinds of things), but there have been times when people have accused me of being smart and have even thrown the word "genius" my way (mainly to appeal to my perceived vanity and to rationalize piling difficult technical work I probably wasn't really qualified to do on my desk ;) ) and speaking for myself, I'd say it's one of the worst things you can accuse a person of because it engenders a lot of resentment, and for some reason, even if you're the humblest person on earth by temperament, people immediately start mistrusting you and assuming you must be really full of yourself. Had a guy who barely knows me in real life accuse me of being the even more pitiable species known as the "broken genius" and I was scared to leave my house for days, for fear of encountering mobs with pitchforks. Please don't throw this term around casually or mistake it for anything more than a way of grouping people and things according to various arbitrary criteria. In practice, that's all it is. Also maybe it's just time to retire the concept?
posted by saulgoodman at 1:20 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 1:20 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
And it should be pretty easy to apply to different groups too. You could take the 100 most influential blues songs so you get a sample of mostly black men. I supposed one would have to be careful to check for bias in who created the list(s). Then just chart the song against how old the artist was when they recorded it and see if you find the same pattern.
Or look for the same pattern using only women artists that other women agree are "geniuses" or produced works commonly regarded as "genius" (or substitute whatever measure you deem appropriate).
And maybe the guy that came up with the theory did so at some point across the 25 published papers and two books and the author of the article neglected to mention it because they have biases of their own.
posted by VTX at 1:22 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or look for the same pattern using only women artists that other women agree are "geniuses" or produced works commonly regarded as "genius" (or substitute whatever measure you deem appropriate).
And maybe the guy that came up with the theory did so at some point across the 25 published papers and two books and the author of the article neglected to mention it because they have biases of their own.
posted by VTX at 1:22 PM on June 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
So now I can console myself that even if I'd parlayed my awesome GREs, etc, into a PhD, I'd probably still feel like I wasn't that smart.
This is true. I used to be a secretary.
You work in academia, don't you? Your institution should be giving you free classes, the shnurers.
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on June 30, 2016
This is true. I used to be a secretary.
You work in academia, don't you? Your institution should be giving you free classes, the shnurers.
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on June 30, 2016
I'm with MisanthropicPainforest. The critiques are not really on point, since the study is inherently about the value society places on individual contribution. When you study the economic evidence of our values, you're going to find a lot of baked in sexism and racism and classism.
If this study didn't find that, I wouldn't find it trustworthy.
The fact that this studies 'genius' in that privileged bubble is what makes it so fascinating to me. It undercuts a major mythos in our society that genius is evident early, which has far reaching consequences. It shows that continual investment in human capital is worthwhile, because some contributions take decades of experience to reach their peak. And it also probably indicates there are policy goals that would identify why conceptual 'geniuses' hit a peak early. (As an ex-honors kid with ADD, I am projecting myself on that group hard.)
It would be useful to see if this model works for other people. But if we started with average people, we'd shrug and decide that some people are just burnouts or late bloomers. Here we are saying "Society has agreed this person is amazeballs. Yet they were considered garbage until they hit their 50s. Shouldn't we be looking at all the 40 year olds we've written off to find the next Pollack? We have concrete evidence they exist."
posted by politikitty at 3:49 PM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
If this study didn't find that, I wouldn't find it trustworthy.
The fact that this studies 'genius' in that privileged bubble is what makes it so fascinating to me. It undercuts a major mythos in our society that genius is evident early, which has far reaching consequences. It shows that continual investment in human capital is worthwhile, because some contributions take decades of experience to reach their peak. And it also probably indicates there are policy goals that would identify why conceptual 'geniuses' hit a peak early. (As an ex-honors kid with ADD, I am projecting myself on that group hard.)
It would be useful to see if this model works for other people. But if we started with average people, we'd shrug and decide that some people are just burnouts or late bloomers. Here we are saying "Society has agreed this person is amazeballs. Yet they were considered garbage until they hit their 50s. Shouldn't we be looking at all the 40 year olds we've written off to find the next Pollack? We have concrete evidence they exist."
posted by politikitty at 3:49 PM on June 30, 2016 [5 favorites]
Stupid for two reasons:
1) It's more about the narratives we like than the reality. When an artist creates work of "genius" early in her career, the narrative has already reached its climax and can only go down.
2) Almost every individual example has holes in it. So Pound's later work isn't widely anthologized--so what? That's because he turned to the Cantos, which how the fuck do you anthologize that?
There are two types of geniuses: me and not me.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:09 PM on June 30, 2016
1) It's more about the narratives we like than the reality. When an artist creates work of "genius" early in her career, the narrative has already reached its climax and can only go down.
2) Almost every individual example has holes in it. So Pound's later work isn't widely anthologized--so what? That's because he turned to the Cantos, which how the fuck do you anthologize that?
There are two types of geniuses: me and not me.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 4:09 PM on June 30, 2016
So there is measurement error. Big deal. Measurement error only biases findings toward zero, so if he found patterns, and there is measurement error, then you just strengthened his argument!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:15 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:15 PM on June 30, 2016
This thread seems like a pretty decent demonstration of the idea you can undermine any argument without really even engaging it by deconstructing the language the argument is constructed in. Important not to mistake that kind of sophistry with serious criticism, unless there's a solid justification for it.
posted by saulgoodman at 4:41 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 4:41 PM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
for those complaining about wired's antiadblock: i present to you the next escalation in the adblock wars, israblock, the anti-anti-adblock (also in chrome)
posted by p3on at 6:42 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by p3on at 6:42 PM on June 30, 2016
For the record, I was able to load the Wired article with AdBlock engaged. (Win 10, Firefox) I did quickly disable it for Wired.com, and will leave it off til they bog me down or serve up something really annoying.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:56 PM on June 30, 2016
posted by Artful Codger at 7:56 PM on June 30, 2016
This thread seems like a pretty decent demonstration of the idea you can undermine any argument without really even engaging it by deconstructing the language the argument is constructed in. Important not to mistake that kind of sophistry with serious criticism, unless there's a solid justification for it.
Well we had a post about a University of Chicago ECONOMIST and no one brought up Pinochet or how people aren't really rational duh so I guess this is progress?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:12 AM on July 1, 2016
Well we had a post about a University of Chicago ECONOMIST and no one brought up Pinochet or how people aren't really rational duh so I guess this is progress?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:12 AM on July 1, 2016
It's relevant because here's an article looking at age distribution amongst people we call geniuses, and wants to use that as a binary model for "types of genius". But if you did that with gender, race or class you'd have to conclude, following similar reasoning, that there's mostly only one "type of genius" in each case: there's a male kind of genius, there's a white kind of genius. Perhaps for class you could allow that there are two types: middle and upper. You could even build this into a theory describing the personal differences between upper class and middle class geniuses. But concentrating on such differences as relating to some intrinsic personal quality, rather than the preferences of society, is very short sighted. What might the existence of both old and young "geniuses" in a certain time and place tell us about that culture's attitudes to age? The article misses a societal analysis of the definition of the (really, very loaded) term "genius", and that really is a shortcoming.
posted by iotic at 6:33 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by iotic at 6:33 PM on July 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
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At first I thought I'd stumbled upon some kind of reality glitch. Then I thought to check the date. I was all about this theory in high school.
Genius is a frustratingly arbitrary term, but yes, it's nice to know that the young wunderkinds are wunderkindish in a very particular way only, and that some people are interesting and smart even when they're old. Who knew!
posted by rorgy at 4:45 AM on June 30, 2016 [2 favorites]