You're openly campaigning? Sure!
September 5, 2016 2:20 PM Subscribe

As the polls (slightly) tightened, Donald Trump surprised everyone by visiting the President of Mexico. While this appeared to signal a long-awaited pivot, Trump pivoted right back with a scathing immigration speech hours later. Trump's surrogates have followed suit, tweeting cartoons of Hillary in blackface and warning of taco trucks on every corner. Later in the week, Trump appealed to to the black community by visiting an African-American church.

Hillary Clinton had a quieter schedule, speaking to the American Legion (something Trump also did.) Her email controversy continues with the State department releasing 30 more emails referencing Benghazi. The press continued its quest to find something wrong with the Clinton Foundation, while Trump's payments to state AGs that were investigating Trump University found little traction.

Looking ahead, the first Commander in Chief Forum will be held Wednesday. Further downstream, the 2016 debate moderators have been announced, while Hillary looks to field an Obama surprise.

lampshade's voter resource roundup:
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U.S. Election Assistance Commission: Resources for Voters (eac.gov)
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Can I Vote? National Association of Secretaries of State (canivote.org)
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Student Voting Guide - Brennan Center for Justice (brennancenter.org)
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Campus Vote Project (campusvoteproject.org)
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Voting and Elections - Find answers to common questions about voting in the US. (usa.gov)
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Early Voting Calendar (vote.org)
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Absentee and Early Voting - National Conference of State Legislatures (ncsl.org)
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Federal Voting Assistance Program (fvap.gov)
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Vote From Abroad Dot Org (votefromabroad.org)
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How to Vote in Every State (YouTube Channel | URL links on right side of page)

posted by ChurchHatesTucker (3263 comments total) 99 users marked this as a favorite

This election: honestly, it's kind of draining.
posted by lunasol at 2:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [97 favorites]

WaPo: Trump, dismissing allegations of impropriety, says donation to Fla. AG came with no strings

“I never spoke to her, first of all; she’s a fine person beyond reproach. I never even spoke to her about it at all. She’s a fine person. Never spoken to her about it. Never,” Trump said Monday while speaking to reporters in Ohio. “Many of the attorney generals turned that case down because I’ll win that case in court. Many turned that down. I never spoke to her.”[...]

Asked by reporters what he expected to receive in return for his donation, Trump said that he and Bondi have known each other for years.

“I have a lot of respect for her. Never spoke to her about that at all. I just have a lot of respect for her and she’s very popular,” he said.

Trump's assertion contradicts statements made to the Associated Press by Marc Reichelderfer — who worked as a consultant on Bondi's reelection effort — that suggested Bondi spoke with Trump and solicited the donation directly. Reichelderfer told the AP at the time that Bondi had not been aware of the complaints against Trump University when she solicited the contribution.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:24 PM on September 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

Speaking with my friends Saturday night, we were all excited with the prospect of a taco truck on our corners. Finally, some fresh pico in this town!
posted by Thorzdad at 2:24 PM on September 5, 2016 [28 favorites]

Re: Obama surprise -- I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what a President with a fair amount of net-positive popular opinion in his last few months of office can do on the campaign trail for his successor-candidate. We haven't seen anything like this in what, 80 years? A century?
posted by tclark at 2:24 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

He just lies, reflexively, even when he doesn't have to. I know people like that. I try to stay away from them. I hope I can continue that.
posted by Etrigan at 2:26 PM on September 5, 2016 [42 favorites]

New talking point from the right, regarding Hillary's health - apparently she had a coughing fit at the beginning of her Labor Day speech in Cleveland today. There's a video but I don't want to link to the Daily Mail or similar.
posted by stolyarova at 2:27 PM on September 5, 2016

Not using Bill Clinton more (for fear of getting jizz on the priggy churchy parts of the Gore/Lieberman campaign, I think) was a huge error in 2000.
posted by thelonius at 2:28 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

Speaking of surprises, I've been thinking lately about an October Surprise, which is something people always start worrying about this time of year, but I kind of wonder if that's even a thing anymore (if it ever was), what with early voting, and with there being such a small number of true undecideds these days.
posted by lunasol at 2:29 PM on September 5, 2016

Kevin Cirilli: CLEVELAND -- TRUMP on Clinton: "Does she look presidential, fellas? Give me a break."

"fellas" Yeah let me translate that for you: "Hey guys we don't want no stinky girls in our sekrit club house, right?"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:31 PM on September 5, 2016 [44 favorites]

Canada will gladly take any and all excess taco trucks!
posted by ssg at 2:32 PM on September 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

AV Club has an article about Trump's youth outreach with #millennialsforTrump. I don't know much about his sons, but those are two incredibly punchable faces that radiate smugness (Ivanka, however, looks perfectly pleasant).
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 2:32 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

TPM: Amazing Find About Trump's Thinking on AG Payoffs
posted by homunculus at 2:33 PM on September 5, 2016 [22 favorites]

There's a video but I don't want to link to the Daily Mail or similar.

Here it is.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:36 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I still kinda think this thread shoulda been titled "You Have Invented A New Kind Of Stupid"
posted by Itaxpica at 2:37 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

And also Bondi's spokesperson said she personally asked Trump for the donation back when this first broke. - TPM
posted by chris24 at 2:37 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

The conspiracy theories that continue to swirl around Hillary's emails and the Clinton Foundation really lay bare how partisan these conversation are. Not only did the story about Trump's habit of giving large campaign donations to state AG's who stopped investigating Trump U (again, why is this even an elected position?) not get any traction, but the fact that Trump's daughter took an Eastern European vacation with Putin's girlfriend is literally the kind of thing that the /conspiracy crowd is convinced happens all the time. Yet, crickets.
posted by thecjm at 2:38 PM on September 5, 2016 [68 favorites]

I'm incredibly disappointed at the lack of coverage of the Trump AG payoffs. I think it deserves more scrutiny than the Clinton foundation, but I'd settle for equal time.
posted by humanfont at 2:39 PM on September 5, 2016 [21 favorites]

"You Have Invented A New Kind Of Stupid"

Dems: I'm With Her

Reps: I'm With Stupid
posted by adept256 at 2:39 PM on September 5, 2016 [40 favorites]

homunculus, that's hilarious! It's brand new, though - this is part of it, the only video I could find that wasn't from Right Side Broadcasting or some other horrible alt-right source.
posted by stolyarova at 2:41 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The conspiracy theories that continue to swirl around Hillary's emails and the Clinton Foundation really lay bare how partisan these conversation are.

Yeah, I have to admit to being genuinely appaled at how hard all the media have been on Clinton, and pretty-much kid-gloves with Trump. I mean, the guy was in high-bucks real estate in NY and NJ. Tell me with a straight face there aren't warehouses full of skeletons just sitting there, waiting to be opened. And, yet...nada.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:43 PM on September 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

Sopan Deb: Trump on what could stop him from debating: "Hurricanes, natural disaster. No, I expect to do all three."

He said he looks forward to the debates, "I think you have an obligation to do the debates."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:45 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, honestly, for some of us, the Clinton email stuff is actually a pretty big deal. In any other year, I'd be urging people to fight her pretty hard. But at this point, I'd rather the person who disingenuously claims that she had no idea "C" was a classification than the person who will literally set fire to America to watch it burn.
posted by corb at 2:45 PM on September 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

Not using Bill Clinton more (for fear of getting jizz on the priggy churchy parts of the Gore/Lieberman campaign, I think) was a huge error in 2000.

Lieberman was the first "Democrat" to shit on Clinton. I don't think it was quite an error but a state of mutual disdain.
posted by Talez at 2:47 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Hurricanes, natural disaster. No, I expect to do all three."

What was that third one you'd do again?
posted by adept256 at 2:48 PM on September 5, 2016 [27 favorites]

Trump appealed to to the black community by visiting an African-American church.

which I would guess was basically an insult given that church is one of those tele-evangelist shops selling Prosperity Gospel BS.

The Fraud is strong with this one.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:48 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hmmm....this native Angelena would prefer tamale trucks.

FWIW, there already is a wall.
posted by brujita at 2:49 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

the Clinton email stuff is actually a pretty big deal

not to me. totally a shruggola thing.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/01/22/infiltration_of_files_seen_as_extensive/
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:50 PM on September 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, I have to admit to being genuinely appaled at how hard all the media have been on Clinton, and pretty-much kid-gloves with Trump. I mean, the guy was in high-bucks real estate in NY and NJ. Tell me with a straight face there aren't warehouses full of skeletons just sitting there, waiting to be opened. And, yet...nada.

The argument that most editors have is that saying "Trump is corrupt and here's the proof" is basically a "dog bites man" story.

To a point they're right. Everyone who cares already isn't voting for him and those who think he's the savior of ~~Western~~ white civilization don't give a shit and think the end firmly justifies the means.
posted by Talez at 2:50 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Hurricanes, natural disaster. No, I expect to do all three."

What was that third one you'd do again?

There are three scheduled debates.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:53 PM on September 5, 2016

Plus if I were running a media enterprise I would pray for a Trump Presidency with all my heart.

No news is bad news if you're running a news organization. This is what CNN learned from the first Gulf War. 1990-91, people love watching dramatic TV.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:54 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kevin Cirilli: CLEVELAND -- TRUMP on Clinton: "Does she look presidential, fellas? Give me a break."

Yes. Yes she does.

Next question?
posted by dersins at 2:54 PM on September 5, 2016 [22 favorites]

Bike riding out in rural Oregon this weekend, I came across a gigantic hand-made sign that said:
HILLARY: Too Big to Jail?

And saw my first ever trump-pence lawn sign. Kinda out in the middle of nowhere, and will make no difference at all...
posted by kaibutsu at 2:55 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

the Clinton email stuff is actually a pretty big deal

Yeah, not to me at all either. I'd say most reasonable evaluations of the full FBI release conclude it pretty much exonerates her. If you want to be pissed at someone from it. Powell looks worse in it.
posted by chris24 at 2:55 PM on September 5, 2016 [67 favorites]

Yay! *makes New Thread Angel*

the person who disingenuously claims that she had no idea "C" was a classification

I admit to skipping a lot of those bigly articles, is there a readily-available cite for that?
posted by petebest at 2:56 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

is there a readily-available cite for that?

no because it's not true
posted by stolyarova at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [30 favorites]

There are three scheduled debates.

The joke is that adept256 deliberately misunderstood hurricanes and natural disasters to be the first two items in a three-item list representing Trump's general rhetorical presence as a catastrophe.
posted by cortex at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [56 favorites]

This still pisses me off:

Fox's Chris Wallace, moderator for the October 19th debate in Las Vegas, won't bother with whether or not candidates are making shit up:
“What do you do if they make assertions that you know to be untrue?”

“That’s not my job,” Wallace replied, without skipping a beat. “It’s not my job to be a truth squad.”

posted by cashman at 4:19 PM on September 5

The Politifact scorecard for Trump is
True/Mostly True: 15%
Half True: 15%
Mostly False/False/Pants on Fire: 70%

Clinton is (respectively)
50%
22%
27%
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

I just posted a link to the Washington Post article on Trump and the Florida AG in the comments on a post to the NEW YORK TIMES Facebook page, with the note that "perhaps your reporters would like a reminder of what proper journalism looks like."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [64 favorites]

WaPo Unpacking Donald Trump’s history with this fall’s debate moderators

But [Martha] Raddatz absolutely grilled Trump last summer in his first interview after saying Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) is "not a war hero." She also confronted Trump about his rhetoric, in general.

"There seems to be a pattern, Mr. Trump," Raddatz said. "When you're criticized or attacked, you often respond with name-calling, using terms like 'dummy,' 'loser,' 'total losers' on Twitter and elsewhere. You even demean some people's physical appearance. Is that something you would continue doing if you were president? Isn't that language beneath the office of the president?"

Funny how they don't have to unpack Clinton's history with the moderators. Oh yeah. That's because she doesn't pick fights or hold grudges.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:59 PM on September 5, 2016 [25 favorites]

Thorzdad: Speaking with my friends Saturday night, we were all excited with the prospect of a taco truck on our corners.

After talking about taco trucks on every corner with other folks, I realized I need a plan on this. See, we have some funky road layouts here, where one house can be on two corners, with a normal suburban size lot (1/8th of an acre, probably), plus there are some weird loop streets. On the other end, you have Phoenix, where the blocks are a frickin' mile long on some sides, long enough that you can get a sunburn on half of your face by walking the entire length of a block (I speak from experience).

Do we get a taco truck on every corner, or is it really more like one every quarter or half mile? I'd like to see the candidate's plans implementing this.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:01 PM on September 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

Given the vast number of emails Hillary has sent me, it's not that surprising anymore that she may have overlooked one or two that should've been more classified than they were.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 3:01 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

So have we all made our bets on which one Trunp will think is the skippable one?
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Joy Reid's panel is eviscerating Chris Wallace rn
posted by schadenfrau at 3:04 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was pretty immersed in covering corporate network security at the time the whole Clinton email system was in operation - going to conferences, reviewing products and practices, writing up developments and what have you. I don't see what she did as being in any way significantly different than standard practice then; in fact, I think she probably took a more responsible path in the advice she took and the way she set things up than many CEOs at the time, even taking into account that she had more responsibility because of the classified aspects of her job and her communications.

Not perfect, no, and with more resources and willingness from her three-letter IT guys it could have been done better. But what she did and what happened as a result in no way justifies the intensity and negativeness of the spin put on it by the GOP and the media.

It just doesn't.
posted by Devonian at 3:04 PM on September 5, 2016 [65 favorites]

I would like to share with everyone that Dinild Trimp has followed me on Twitter, and is following me around and tweeting things like this at me when appropriate (yes, those are my cats). I don't know if I love him or am terrified by him or both.

MAKE AGAIN make
posted by stolyarova at 3:04 PM on September 5, 2016 [30 favorites]

I'll pick apart the report from computer later today. My basic read on the Clinton email stuff is:

Clinton displays a lot of ignorance around basic classification security protocols that I, as someone at a much, much lower rank and level of responsibility, could have reasonably expected my junior soldiers to do better than. She has always struck me as an extremely competent person; I am having to re-evaluate that, in light of the disclosures. Either she was competently aware of the rules and chose to ignore them because she thought they were petty (strikes me as probable) or she was unaware of shit that even the most junior guys would be told before entering a SCIF, thus her competency is in question (strikes me as improbable, she seems a smart lady).

It also seems that people on her team did not feel comfortable checking the SecState, and so she didn't often get challenged on her abysmal security procedures. But that's no excuse for someone on her level not knowing them.
posted by corb at 3:05 PM on September 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

But what she did and what happened as a result in no way justifies the intensity and negativeness of the spin put on it by the GOP and the media.

It just doesn't.

But she's a woman. She needs to be beyond reproach and unimpeachable to hold elected office. The man can have multiple wives, sex scandals, bankruptcies, and cheated people, but a woman? WHO HAS CLINTON MURDERED ON HER WAY TO THE TOP?
posted by Talez at 3:06 PM on September 5, 2016 [28 favorites]

As far as the Clinton Foundation thing goes, I think it's fairly obvious that there was a pay for access deal in place, perhaps not directly with Clinton demanding it, but her staffers certainly routed people who had donated to the Clinton foundation her way.

This is nothing new of course. Politicians often directly solicit campaign contributions on the promise of access, soliciting donations to a charity is, if anything, somewhat better than the normal political routine of auctioning off their time to the person who gives the most to their reelection fund.

I don't like it, even though the Clinton Foundation does good things. Payment for access means that the only viewpoints the politician hears are the viewpoints of those rich enough to pay for access, and that's going to unavoidably distort and shape the politician's positions.

But it's universal in American politics, and in that context I suppose I'd rather see some rich fucker give a billion to a charity in order to bend Clinton's ear for an hour than see them make a smaller campaign contribution bribe for the same privilege.

I'm not happy with it, and I do think it's a legitimate problem. But it isn't as if, literally, every single other politician in the USA doesn't do the same thing only without any charitable benefit. And 86% of Clinton Foundation money goes to real charity, which is pretty good for a charity.

Still don't really like it. Rich people playing rich people games does not endear me to Clinton. But I can't see it as some huge awful major scandal.

Heywood Mogroot III which I would guess was basically an insult given that church is one of those tele-evangelist shops selling Prosperity Gospel BS.

I think that Trump feels most comfortable around other blatant con artists. He seems to have the opinion that everyone is a fraud, everyone is running a con, so I suppose when he's in the company of people who aren't he feels nervous because he can't figure out what the con is. While with the prosperity gospel types the con is obvious enough that even Trump can figure it out right away.
posted by sotonohito at 3:07 PM on September 5, 2016 [20 favorites]

Report from Republican leaning family members who are hesitantly on Team Hillary: she looks like she as a terrible memory, regarding an interview with (the FBI? I'm not sure), where she says she doesn't recall what she did a number of times. To them, it sounds like she has a terrible memory.

From this vague (non)story, it sounds like she's a busy person who doesn't recall everything she did or didn't do at work.

I still don't think they'll vote for Donny.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:08 PM on September 5, 2016

So have we all made our bets on which one Trunp will think is the skippable one?

Town hall meeting format. Though the questioners are going to be drawn from the narrow and brackish pool that is Independent Swing Undecided Voters (or people who say they're undecided) it's the one where he has more limited capacity to bully the moderator, even if it gives more room to act like a snake oil peddler to Doris from Wapakoneta.
posted by holgate at 3:10 PM on September 5, 2016

Either she was competently aware of the rules and chose to ignore them because she thought they were petty

I just think she wanted a private, secure channel to communicate with her minions.

And couldn't really get that from the existing government resources, given how the government is wired, literally and figuratively.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:11 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

Still don't really like it. Rich people playing rich people games does not endear me to Clinton. But I can't see it as some huge awful major scandal.

And yet you have spoken over 250 words about this non-scandal, and barely 50 about Trump - none of which about any even worse scandals on his part. Does that not strike you as profoundly odd?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:11 PM on September 5, 2016 [56 favorites]

We talk about Clinton because we have reason to expect better of her. We have no reason to expect anything better than being a flaming fascist of Trump.
posted by corb at 3:13 PM on September 5, 2016 [22 favorites]

I think it's fairly obvious that there was a pay for access deal in place

Funny, because all the newspapers digging haven't been able to find anything. But I'm sure people's feelings are a better indication.
posted by chris24 at 3:15 PM on September 5, 2016 [90 favorites]

We talk about Clinton because we have reason to expect better of her. We have no reason to expect anything better than being a flaming fascist of Trump.

The less attention there is put upon Trump's genuine scandals, the greater the danger of enough people remaining uninformed of them and voting for him because "I dunno, there's all this talk about Hillary and emails and stuff, at least Trump's honest."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:16 PM on September 5, 2016 [102 favorites]

corb My position on Clinton's email and "classified" information has always been that a) it was the same exact thing Colin Powell did so therefore people throwing a fit about Clinton doing it when they didn't care that Powell did it have a motive other than security, and b) I don't really care in the slightest anyway.

The USA has the most incredibly foolish, pointless, woefully overused secrecy mechanism I can imagine a supposedly free nation having. The US government has apparently adopted the position that, by default, anything it does should be kept secret, and that a case must be made for something to be public. This goes 100% against my position that by default everything the government does should be assumed public and that a special case must be made for making something (very briefly) secret.

The Snowden leaks showed the sort of petty bullshit the US government was considering to be top secret.

Given that, I really don't care if Clinton violated the secrecy rules. I'd rather she had challenged their blatant and obvious foolishness and abuse, but simply ignoring the rules when they got in the way of doing her job was, to me, tolerable simply because the rules are so bad.

I'm absolutely certain she knew perfectly well what all the rules were, she's smart and she's a wonk and she's lying about being confused. Seems to be a fairly normative and inconsequential political lie to me.
posted by sotonohito at 3:16 PM on September 5, 2016 [22 favorites]

Plus if I were running a media enterprise I would pray for a Trump Presidency with all my heart.

No news is bad news if you're running a news organization. This is what CNN learned from the first Gulf War. 1990-91, people love watching dramatic TV.

I mean, sure, but aren't we already guaranteed endless hearings (at least in the House) and "scandals" if Clinton's elected?
posted by HumuloneRanger at 3:17 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Taco Truck Meme has made this election almost fun for me. It's so silly and so telling. Really, Hillary should just repaint the campaign bus. If she came back to Maine, which she won't, I'd totally hire a taco truck.
posted by theora55 at 3:17 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Clinton displays a lot of ignorance around basic classification security protocols

Should confidential information have ended up on a private server? No.

And the State Department should have done a much better job of managing their information. But while something marked (C) is controlled information, yes, it isn't some vital ultra top secret that would destroy America if it got out. Confidential is literally at the level of how many cans of beans a ship took on.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:19 PM on September 5, 2016 [16 favorites]

I mean, sure, but aren't we already guaranteed endless hearings (at least in the House) and "scandals" if Clinton's elected?

WW3 is likely to be more photogenic than congressional hearings.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:19 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

I still can't believe Trump is in the running. I keep expecting to sober up. I really think 2016 is the year where the writers went on strike, and the network brought on a bunch of stoned college kids to do the last few episodes.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 3:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

I think at this point, everyone typing the word "email" in this thread should be required to attest that they have already read the following:

1. 14 Excerpts From the FBI's Report on Hillary Clinton's Email
2. A Quick Follow-up on Hillary Clinton's Email

and that they have something further to say that isn't already covered by:

"If that's your case against Hillary—one trivial email over four years that shouldn't have been sent—then go to town with it. The rest of us will spend our time on stuff that matters."
posted by RedOrGreen at 3:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [132 favorites]

The less attention there is put upon Trump's genuine scandals, the greater the danger of enough people remaining uninformed of them and voting for him because "I dunno, there's all this talk about Hillary and emails and stuff, at least Trump's honest."

That's a perfectly fair criticism of the media. But to me, at least, it doesn't seem like a fair criticism of people in this comment thread.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 3:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

And yet you have spoken over 250 words about this non-scandal, and barely 50 about Trump - none of which about any even worse scandals on his part. Does that not strike you as profoundly odd?

No, it's not odd, because as Clinton is the only actual serious candidate in the race, it seriously makes sense to give her serious critique. Why the fuck would I waste my breath on the fucking trainwreck that is Donald Trump?

The less attention there is put upon Trump's genuine scandals, the greater the danger of enough people remaining uninformed of them and voting for him because "I dunno, there's all this talk about Hillary and emails and stuff, at least Trump's honest."

I hate to break it to you, but the kind of people who can be taken in by a con-man like Trump generally can't be reasoned with. You can really try if you want, but ignoring the things that they have issue with when it comes to Clinton isn't going to suddenly make them trust her.

I don't think me or others being willing to take Clinton to task because we actually want to hold our politicians feet to the fire to get the kind of politics we want, not what her biggest donors want, is unreasonable, especially when it's taking place in such a pro-Clinton echo-chamber such as Metafilter. (No offense fellow MeFites, but it distresses me how much legitimate criticism is just brushed away here because "Trump is worse!" We all know he is, so why does it mean we can't discuss Clinton's faults?)
posted by deadaluspark at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

"Plus if I were running a media enterprise [and had no concern for the future of humanity, just my immediate revenue stream] I would pray for a Trump Presidency with all my heart."

I envy your ignorance of Fox News.
posted by adept256 at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

EmpressCallipygos Not especially. My position on Trump is that he's the very definition of the worst possible type of human being, a vile person in all respects, manifestly unsuited to be President, and dangerous in both his randomly shifting wild pulled out of his ass positions and his naked racism, xenophobia, homophobia, and misogyny. He's your bog standard Republican, except that he says the soft parts loud and he's dumber, has thinner skin, and is a more frat boy asshole than the average.

There's not much to say except "ZOMG I hate him so much and the latest examples of his assholery reaffirm my position."

With Clinton there's more to talk about because there's more there. She's a real candidate with real positions and with whom I have some real disagreements. Trump is someone I disagree with very close to 100%, and I personally loathe. I can only say "I really hate that motherfucking Trump asshole" so many times before it gets boring, you know?

Clinton I agree with about 80% of the time, and that remaining 20% is crunchy and interesting to me because of my larger area of agreement with her.
posted by sotonohito at 3:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [19 favorites]

oh god if clinton ate a live baby during the debates i would still vote for her

who the fuck cares about her emails
posted by poffin boffin at 3:24 PM on September 5, 2016 [126 favorites]

so what we have here is not Hillary Clinton “(telling) the FBI ‘I do not recall’ 39 times,” but rather, 39 examples of an FBI agent saying Hillary could not recall something.

That seems like a minute distinction, until you actually look at the examples being cited. “Did not recall” is FBI-speak that doesn’t actually mean someone can’t remember something that they should be able to remember, as evidenced by the 15 times Hillary Clinton is said to “not recall” things that she would have no reason to recall because there’s no evidence they happened. For example, “Clinton did not recall receiving any emails she thought should not be on an unclassified system” because she, in fact, did not receive any emails she thought should not be on an unclassified system. She couldn’t recall using a flip-phone while she was at State because as far as anyone knows, she didn’t use a flip-phone while she was at State.

On the other hand...

In Trump U. Lawsuit Deposition, Trump Can't Remember 'World's Greatest Memory' Boast

Donald Trump claims to have a world-class memory, but it certainly wasn't on display during his deposition for a lawsuit over Trump University.

"I don't remember," Trump told lawyers 35 times during his December testimony, which was released on Wednesday.

His inability to recall covered a wide range of subjects — including whether he had told NBC News' Katy Tur just a month earlier that he had the "world's Greatest memory."

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:25 PM on September 5, 2016 [132 favorites]

That's a perfectly fair criticism of the media. But to me, at least, it doesn't seem like a fair criticism of people in this comment thread.

You don't think that the perceived interests of the public are what is driving the media these days?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:26 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

waste my breath on the fucking trainwreck that is Donald Trump?

'cause he beat out a dozen or so legitimate viable candidate when everyone was discounting a laughing?

Oh and Hil's numbers dropped recently.
posted by sammyo at 3:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

What poffin boffin said. I'd vote for a yellow dog, as the saying goes, this election as long as it was a Democrat. I'm voting for her, I'm giving her money, an I'm volunteering for her. She's my candidate, and even if it was Cruz or Rubio instead of Trump she'd be my candidate because while I've got my disagreements with the Democrats they're the closer party to my ideals.

So saying "oh how I hate and loathe Trump" is just redundant to me.
posted by sotonohito at 3:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I really think 2016 is the year where the writers went on strike, and the network brought on a bunch of stoned college kids to do the last few episodes

You make it sound like the series finale. 😱
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

You don't think that the perceived interests of the public are what is driving the media these days?

Has it ever?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:28 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh and Hil's numbers dropped recently.

So maybe she needs to take some legit fucking criticism and learn from it before they drop anymore compared to a fucking orange buffoon who would be LOSING BY A LANDSLIDE to pretty much ANYONE else?
posted by deadaluspark at 3:28 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

It matters what the media talks about precisely because a lot of folks aren't going to be reasoned into (or out of) a position and instead focus on signals: what people talk about, how often, who talks about it, etc. The reason Clinton is perceived as more dishonest is because the media talks about it a lot, and has for decades. If the media talked about Trump's failures more -- actually held him to the standard they hold Clinton to -- then folks would hear about it. Yes, of course, lots of folks aren't going to change their vote because of it. But they didn't decide they didn't want to vote against Clinton for any less reason than the media (all of it) talks about how much everyone dislikes her so much.
posted by R343L at 3:29 PM on September 5, 2016 [56 favorites]

You make it sound like the series finale. 😱

It is. Earth wasn't renewed.
posted by Talez at 3:30 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

8,491 pages raise more flags about Bondi's Trump money
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:31 PM on September 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

You don't think that the perceived interests of the public are what is driving the media these days?

I don't think the fact that someone on Metafilter spends 250 words on Clinton and only 50 on Trump in one comment drives the media. And I think it's wrong to criticize someone here for posting such a comment.

I also don't think that our spending time here talking about what we do or do not perceive as problems with Clinton or her campaign is driving the media either. Do you really think what we say here has that much influence on media coverage of national politics? If so, why?
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 3:35 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

So since I see some C for Classified mumbling here, I'll link to this facebook post.

"C is a paragraph marking for confidential.
Confidential is the lowest level of controlled or classified information. Confidential is not Secret (S) or Top Secret (TS). Confidential material is typically not classified in and of itself, but is controlled because if combined with other specific information may give away schedules, capabilities, operations, or intentions. . .

What Americans seem to be missing here is this: this situation would never have existed in the first goddamned place if Congress and the various agencies tasked with supporting Cabinet Secretaries had done their jobs by providing regulation, funding, and the proper communications support and security. They didn't. In fact when asked to provide that support by the White House for Secretary Clinton, they refused."

posted by threeturtles at 3:36 PM on September 5, 2016 [97 favorites]

Fear and Loathing Across Party Lines: The Polarization of American Politics (someone's been watching you).
posted by andrewcooke at 3:37 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lovely bike ride, andrewcooke, but somehow I don't think that's what you meant to link to?
posted by stolyarova at 3:39 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

thanks - fixed the link, i hope.
posted by andrewcooke at 3:40 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I work for the government, so I have opinions on emails. I have to get constant training on how to email (OK, once-a-year training), so I know exactly what I can or can't do with email and what will get me fired or reprimanded. Therefore I get irritated at high-level government workers who clearly do not have to take this training or follow the rules. On the other hand, government IT is a joke, and all my personal information has been stolen. So my feelings are mixed about Clinton. I strongly suspect her emails were more secure than mine.
posted by acrasis at 3:43 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

If the media talked about Trump's failures more -- actually held him to the standard they hold Clinton to -- then folks would hear about it.

..and his common public image today would be as a Con Man and a Crook. But the New York Times in particular decided they'd rather promote him as a "Local New York Character", probably at the behest of the Classifieds department who saw all those buildings with names on them as sources of lots of rental listings.

And then there's NBC, which openly promoted him as a Model Businessman. Which is obviously why The Apprentice didn't air on ABC, who lost big bucks when Donald took over and destroyed the USFL.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:44 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy, thanks for those details on the FBI report on Hillary (and the comparison to Donny).
posted by filthy light thief at 3:45 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

"oh god if clinton ate a live baby during the debates i would still vote for her"

Wait, that was the voting day theme at Terminus.
posted by clavdivs at 3:46 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

acrasis: I work for the government, so I have opinions on emails.

I think you have to be more clear about which branch of the government, and where. I work for a branch of my state's government, which isn't really a bastion of good email etiquette, so it's not surprising we've never had any training on email management. Then again, we're not generally working with classified materials, but there are details of internal discussions that shouldn't go out to public entities, but do because they're included in a long email chain someone doesn't review before forwarding.
posted by filthy light thief at 3:47 PM on September 5, 2016

compared to a fucking orange buffoon who would be LOSING BY A LANDSLIDE to pretty much ANYONE else?

[citation needed]

There are not many landslides in national elections any more, and that's not just in the US. At least, not for the moment. For some reason -- perhaps including the media's desire to keep its thumb on the scale to ensure a grand finale, not a foregone conclusion -- we're doomed to squeakers.
posted by holgate at 3:49 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

I love the people on Twitter saying that Bernie would be winning in a landslide. I love them like brothers (they are all dudes) but they are being extremely goofy. Bernie couldn't even win Brooklyn in a landslide vs HRC, I doubt his organization would be able to get it together to crush anything other than the college vote.

Not that it matters because he (we) lost. It's time to admit that trump has a very hard floor of support. Not in spite of his insane facist tendencies but because of them.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:53 PM on September 5, 2016 [43 favorites]

So maybe she needs to take some legit fucking criticism and learn from it...

When you're accused of stuff you didn't do, I'm not sure what the lesson is supposed to be. People are idiots, maybe?
posted by um at 3:54 PM on September 5, 2016 [82 favorites]

Filthy Light Thief, I'm USDA scientist, so I have no access to classified information, but I have to take the same training as folks who have access to SS#s and other sensitive information. Even during the various govt. shut-downs, I was not allowed to do official business on non-work email addresses, and I certainly can't do non-work stuff on my official email. I take Clinton's email stuff a lot more seriously than almost everyone I know, and give her some serious side-eye. But there's no way I'm not voting for her.
posted by acrasis at 3:56 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

/ I doubt his organization would be able to get it together to crush anything other than the college vote.

Meant to add, and for every college kid anarchist he gained he'd lose a middle class suburb dad who would stay home instead.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:56 PM on September 5, 2016

I don't think Bernie would be winning in a landslide against Trump. I can't help but think that if 2008 Obama was running against Trump, Trump would get crushed, though.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:57 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

This election is a choice between two futures. Let's not forget that.
posted by heatherlogan at 3:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [19 favorites]

This election: honestly, it's kind of draining.

For anyone else who is feeling overwhelmed by this election, I have a few helpful guidelines. They may not help everyone, but it never hurts to try.

1. Install Trump Filter
2. Play Dark Souls III instead.
3. Choose to not post in threads like this one. Aside from this comment, I've mostly stayed out of the other election oriented threads.
4. I am Canadian, so it's probably easier for me than it is for you to choose to ignore this election.
5. Google image search "happy dog gifs".
6. You're welcome.
posted by Fizz at 3:59 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Hey Hillary, you suck! For these reasons!"
"Literally all that stuff is made up."
"Yeah? Well I... Christ woman can't you take fucking criticism?"
posted by um at 4:00 PM on September 5, 2016 [197 favorites]

When you're accused of stuff you didn't do, I'm not sure what the lesson is supposed to be. People are idiots, maybe?

Well, let's be real. Clinton lies about weird shit. Like the story about being under sniper fire in Bosnia (which totally WAS NOT MADE UP despite all the BULLSHIT comments saying EVERYTHING people point out about her is made up. Take a fucking hike with that shit, people.). I mean, really, maybe it isn't that people are idiots, but her difficulty in somehow being straightforwardly truthful doesn't help her at all. She never admits wrongdoing, never attempts to make amends, and says ridiculous shit like "I'm the most transparent politician in US history that I'm aware of." It doesn't make me think "Oh wow, she's so trustworthy." It rather makes me think she has a shaky truce with the truth, like most people in D.C., and like many people this kind of stuff rubs me the wrong way. Does it mean she is evil incarnate and going to ruin shit? No, but seriously, can't anybody fucking step back and say "Hey Hillary, you really need to change how you handle this kind of shit, because all you are doing is pushing away people who might actually agree with you?"
posted by deadaluspark at 4:06 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

I feel frustrated because I also want to wag my finger at Clinton over her private email server, but what is the point when she is running against Literal Hitler?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:06 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

She never admits wrongdoing,

off the top of my head she admitted wrongdoing in:

-- Nancy Reagan comments about AIDS
-- email server
posted by zutalors! at 4:09 PM on September 5, 2016 [52 favorites]

KMOX St. Louis News ‏@kmoxnews 8m8 minutes ago
#BREAKING: Longtime conservative icon Phyllis Schlafly has died, per KMOX sources. We'll bring you more information as it becomes available.

She just turned 92 in the middle of August. She was a particular thorn in my side as a young woman-- much as Ann Couter is today, I suppose, although maybe not as vulgar nor as trollish.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:09 PM on September 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

compared to a fucking orange buffoon who would be LOSING BY A LANDSLIDE to pretty much ANYONE else?

She's up 4 points more than Obama was at this time. But I guess women just never do it well enough.
posted by chris24 at 4:10 PM on September 5, 2016 [100 favorites]

She never admits wrongdoing,

off the top of my head she admitted wrongdoing in:

-- Nancy Reagan comments about AIDS
-- email server

Iraq. Crime Bill. Super predators.
posted by chris24 at 4:11 PM on September 5, 2016 [52 favorites]

She never admits wrongdoing

Let me google that for you.
posted by Somn at 4:12 PM on September 5, 2016 [19 favorites]

This coughing thing is so petty and obvious. I saw a video compilation on Twitter (#HackingHillary is even trending) of times Hillary has coughed over the last decade. HOW DARE A WOMAN COUGH!

I'm sure if someone made a video of every time I coughed it could be manipulated to make it appear that I had a terminal illness.
posted by guiseroom at 4:12 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

In bizarro news, not only did Schlafly die today, she also started a PAC today called Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle PAC.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:13 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

One comment deleted. Once you're telling people to "shove it", you're at the point where you should take a break from the thread for a while.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 4:15 PM on September 5, 2016 [25 favorites]

> We talk about Clinton because we have reason to expect better of her. We have no reason to expect anything better than being a flaming fascist of Trump.

The less attention there is put upon Trump's genuine scandals, the greater the danger of enough people remaining uninformed of them and voting for him because "I dunno, there's all this talk about Hillary and emails and stuff, at least Trump's honest."

Paul Krugman: Hillary Clinton Gets Gored

True, there aren’t many efforts to pretend that Donald Trump is a paragon of honesty. But it’s hard to escape the impression that he’s being graded on a curve. If he manages to read from a TelePrompter without going off script, he’s being presidential. If he seems to suggest that he wouldn’t round up all 11 million undocumented immigrants right away, he’s moving into the mainstream. And many of his multiple scandals, like what appear to be clear payoffs to state attorneys general to back off investigating Trump University, get remarkably little attention.

Meanwhile, we have the presumption that anything Hillary Clinton does must be corrupt, most spectacularly illustrated by the increasingly bizarre coverage of the Clinton Foundation.

Paul Krugman Dismantles the Dangerously Lopsided Coverage of Trump and Clinton
posted by homunculus at 4:15 PM on September 5, 2016 [73 favorites]

Wow. I'm from St. Louis and I had no idea Schlafly meant anything other than good beer.
posted by saul wright at 4:16 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

So maybe she needs to take some legit fucking criticism and learn from it

If I were Clinton, what I would have learned from A QUARTER FUCKING CENTURY OF CRITICISM is "Fuck all of y'all."

Because Clinton is a far, far better person than I, what she has learned is to respond to bullshit criticism with grace and patience.
posted by dersins at 4:17 PM on September 5, 2016 [111 favorites]

Donald Trump, being graded on a curve? You don't say.

John Gruber pointed out, rather astutely, that you should just try to imagine the political hay-making that would go on if Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama had five children by three different partners.
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:19 PM on September 5, 2016 [66 favorites]

Hillary Clinton Blames Coughing Fit on Being 'Allergic' to Donald Trump

Hillary Clinton blamed a bad coughing fit on opponent Donald Trump during a Labor Day rally in Cleveland, triggering a sharp response from the Trump campaign and a trending hashtag on social media.

“Every time I think of Trump, I get allergic,” Clinton croaked in between coughs, after drinking some water and patting her chest. “Boy, we have 63 days to go.” [...]

Trump’s campaign manager, Kellyanne Conway, was quick on the rebound with a jab about Clinton’s lack of face time with the press.

“Must be allergic to media. Finally spent a minute [with] them,” Conway posted on Twitter.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:19 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

the Clinton email stuff is actually a pretty big deal

how about rove erasing 22 million white house (bush) emails (pdf, yo) while there was a warrant being acquired by doj? that a big deal?
posted by j_curiouser at 4:24 PM on September 5, 2016 [107 favorites]

"Hey Hillary, you suck! For these reasons!"
"Literally all that stuff is made up."
"Yeah? Well I... Christ woman can't you take fucking criticism?"

Thank you.

The problem is not that Clinton maybe could have had better email security habits. The problem is that she did just as well as everyone else in her role, arguably BETTER than Colin Powell, and yet is still the only one getting her feet held to the fire. Endlessly.

The problem is that the 24 hour news cycle has become 24 hours a day of "Clinton emails" and "Clinton foundation" -- while Trump is given a near-total pass by the vast majority of the media for well-documented, actually illegal activities. Well-documented, actually illegal activities that somehow don't warrant the same level of relentless scrutiny as the non-crimes for which Clinton has been completely exonerated after exhaustive investigation.

It's true that what we say here probably makes zero difference to the outcome of the election. But seeing that pattern play out here as well as in the news is incredibly frustrating, since it means whatever the hell the networks are playing at these days -- it's clearly working.
posted by kythuen at 4:24 PM on September 5, 2016 [118 favorites]

So Trump's taking the Mean Girls approach to messaging now. Classy.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:25 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

how about rove erasing 22 million white house (bush) emails

If you need me to say Karl Rove is objectively terrible, I'm happy to do it, but I'm not sure this comes as news to anyone.
posted by corb at 4:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Media approach to Clinton: "Well, where there's smoke, there must be fire!"

Media approach to Trump: "NOTHING TO SEE HERE, PEOPLE! JUST A BUNCH OF FIRE! TOTALLY NORMAL FIRE!"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [97 favorites]

One of the better writers at one of the better papers, Karen Tumulty at the Washington Post just wrote "How Hillary Clinton helped create what she later called the ‘vast right-wing conspiracy’". (Must be noted: writers don't write their own headline and the URL shows the much more accurate wording "hillary-clinton-was-right-about-the-vast-right-wing-conspiracy-heres-why-it-exists") But, with some minor quibbles, it shows how Hillary's "impulses toward secrecy" (what I would call more of a "control freak" tendency) helped enemies of the Clintons build negative perceptions about them. (It is also interesting that after several good Trump-focused articles in a row in mid-August, Tumulty took two weeks on this Hillary article. Editors, sigh.)
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Phyllis Schlafly also has a new book out (Warning, link goes to a Pat Buchanan editorial

At 92, the founder of Eagle Forum has a new book out, published by Regnery. “The Conservative Case for Trump,” co-authored by Ed Martin of Eagle Forum and Brett Decker, argues that the Donald is an authentic conservative around whom every conservative should rally.

Note that her co-author, Ed Martin, is also the treasurer and Custodian of Records of the brand spanking new Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle PAC. Ed Martin is also President of the Eagle Forum which was torn apart by Schlafly's endorsement of Trump. Most Eagle Forum members were Cruz supporters.

Since the Eagle Forum PAC already existed I'm guessing that this new PAC will be to raise funds for Trump. I'm wondering how much money and attention the new PAC will get without Schlafly alive to promote it. I don't think the Ed Martin Eagle PAC has as much appeal.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:37 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

she's smart and she's a wonk and she's lying about being confused.

Perhaps you would like to elaborate? Confused about what? Lying about what?
posted by JackFlash at 4:39 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

5. Google image search "happy dog gifs".

r/rarepuppers not r/rarepepes!
posted by um at 4:44 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump Surrogate Admits To Joy Reid: Trump Did 'Pay-For-Play'

In what can only be described as an epic failure, a Trump spokesman first admits that Trump participates in "Pay for Play" deals, but then tries to justify it because he is a private citizen and *everyone* does it.

Clearly, Steve Cortes has no idea that donating money (paying off) officials to get favors or special access is patently illegal, for any citizen. His spin comes so fast and so hard, you can see his eyeballs nearly roll back in his head as he tries to say that Trump plans to end it. Yes, you have to hear it for yourself:

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:45 PM on September 5, 2016 [97 favorites]

Since the Eagle Forum PAC already existed I'm guessing that this new PAC will be to raise funds for Trump. I'm wondering how much money and attention the new PAC will get without Schlafly alive to promote it.

You're not going to believe this, but:

Phyllis Schlafly, whose grass-roots campaigns against Communism, abortion and the Equal Rights Amendment galvanized conservatives for almost two generations and helped reshape American politics, died on Monday. She was 92.
posted by holborne at 4:46 PM on September 5, 2016

Corb: "Either she was competently aware of the rules and chose to ignore them because she thought they were petty (strikes me as probable) or she was unaware of shit that even the most junior guys would be told before entering a SCIF, thus her competency is in question (strikes me as improbable, she seems a smart lady)."

That all sounds suspiciously vague. What are you precise complaints? What rules did she ignore. What rules was she unaware of?
posted by JackFlash at 4:46 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

In what can only be described as an epic failure, a Trump spokesman first admits that Trump participates in "Pay for Play" deals, but then tries to justify it because he is a private citizen and *everyone* does it.

Front page news! Or you know, a paragraph in the back pages. Or not at all.
posted by Artw at 4:48 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Even if you're "smart and a wonk", you won't know everything about everything, especially things you really don't want to bother with... they're called "blind spots" and sometimes "I can't recall" means "I had better things to think about".
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:49 PM on September 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

As far as the Clinton Foundation thing goes, I think it's fairly obvious that there was a pay for access deal in place, perhaps not directly with Clinton demanding it, but her staffers certainly routed people who had donated to the Clinton foundation her way.

I'm absolutely certain she knew perfectly well what all the rules were, she's smart and she's a wonk and she's lying about being confused.

Hello, I noticed there are a number of comments with statements like these peppered in. Given the stakes of this election, I think it is quite dangerous to make assertions without proper evidence. So would you mind citing the evidence that prove these to be true?
posted by Anonymous at 4:49 PM on September 5, 2016

yea I would love to hear about this obvious pay for play on the part of the Clinton foundation, especially wrt to the "pay" part. Like there are actual checks written in the Bondi situation on the Trump side.
posted by zutalors! at 4:51 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

Haven't you heard, rumors of smoke are enough to burn a place down this year.
posted by chris24 at 4:52 PM on September 5, 2016 [16 favorites]

Payment for access means that the only viewpoints the politician hears are the viewpoints of those rich enough to pay for access, and that's going to unavoidably distort and shape the politician's positions.

Getting back to the pay-for-access thing... the AP "investigation" showed about half Clinton's meetings were with donors, which means about half her meetings were with non-donors. So she was hearing the viewpoints of non-paying people. Since it was also shown that donors weren't exactly getting their way (were ANY of the pay-for-access meetings shown to result in pay-for-action?), it appears she was making her own decisions regardless of donations.

Business interests are always trying to meet with politicians, and they do have legitimate reasons to meet. If they think paying a donation will improve their standing, that's fine. But if it's shown that 1) you don't have to make a donation to have a meeting, and 2) making a donation doesn't result in you automatically getting your way (both of which Clinton followed), there really shouldn't be a problem.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 4:52 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Re Phyllis Schlafly: you're not going to believe this, but:

Yeah, no, that is why I started linking to all of the Schlafly stuff.

Philip Rucker: Clinton took questions with reporters aboard her campaign plane

So you think the Press will stop reporting, "It has been X number of days since Hillary Clinton held a press conference"?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:53 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Somehow I have a cable package that has HBO yet doesn't include MSNBC.

#FirstWorldProblems
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:57 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

So if we take the trump sphere of invulnerability as a given, shouldn't the guys he's paying off get investigated over this?
posted by Artw at 4:59 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

the AP "investigation" showed about half Clinton's meetings were with donors, which means about half her meetings were with non-donors

No that's not what they found at all. They found that half of the people the AP classified as "outside the government" were donors, not half of all her meetings. They did misstate that distinction in their tweet reporting the story and refuse to retract it. And they won't release the list they generated. And the people they're talking about include (Nobel Laureate) Elie Wiesel and (Nobel Laureate) Muhammad Yunus, two people I'm guessing could have gotten meetings with Clinton regardless.
posted by one_bean at 5:00 PM on September 5, 2016 [46 favorites]

the AP "investigation" showed about half Clinton's meetings were with donors

No, although they tried to spin it that way. It was half of the meetings that weren't with various government officials, which was a small fraction of her schedule.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:00 PM on September 5, 2016 [17 favorites]

> oh god if clinton ate a live baby during the debates i would still vote for her

Can we shape crescent dough into a baby shape and stuff it with taco fixings, like a taco ring shaped like a baby pinata? She can nosh on it during the debate with her hot sauce.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 5:02 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh good, a new thread so all the people who didnt read the last 1000 comments of the last one can argue over emails again.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:04 PM on September 5, 2016 [102 favorites]

Wow. I'm from St. Louis and I had no idea Schlafly meant anything other than good beer.

She recently lost a trademark dispute with the brewery owner (who I just learned is her nephew by marriage).
posted by HumuloneRanger at 5:05 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

"I think it is quite dangerous to make assertions without proper evidence. So would you mind citing the evidence that prove these to be true?"

I agree. So what's in a name?

"I don't know if I particularly want to be remembered for anything. I personally do not think I'm a great gift to the world. I've been very fortunate."

-Sir Edmund Hiliary.
posted by clavdivs at 5:06 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Absent significant new evidence, I pledge never to mention those darned emails again. I was sick of them last month, I'm twice as sick of them now. Because, like the Clinton Foundation, there's no there there.
posted by Devonian at 5:08 PM on September 5, 2016 [21 favorites]

Refresh my memory y'all, is there currently a "beer and cookies" appreciation fund for the mods?
posted by duffell at 5:32 PM on September 5

That would be the Fund MetaFilter options, I think. Maybe not officially, but I for one support the mods maintaining their mental health on a few of our dimes.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:09 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh good, a new thread so all the people who didnt read the last 1000 comments of the last one can argue over emails again.

Yeah I love the beginning of each thread when the people who only ever read a couple hundred comments in each thread show up and try to relitigate a bunch of stuff. *sigh*
posted by threeturtles at 5:10 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh good, a new thread so all the people who didnt read the last 1000 comments of the last one can argue over emails again.

Oh, I read it, but I am getting sick of the drive-by "hey guys did you know Clinton did this terrible thing byeeeeeeeee" comments that drop their "knowledge" and fail to cite any reliable evidence whatsoever. It perpetuates the exact culture of innuendo that Krugman talks about during a time where the opponent has a long list of things he has said and done that objectively disqualify him for any elected position, much less president. It's false equivalency, it's intellectually lazy, and it wastes everyone's time.
posted by Anonymous at 5:12 PM on September 5, 2016

This is forever. This is what we do now. This is who we are. *creepy smile*
posted by um at 5:13 PM on September 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

My apologies, Secret Life of Gravy -- totally missed it. No disrespect intended.
posted by holborne at 5:14 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Richmond Times-Dispatch (wikipedia claims it is the most important newspaper in the state of VA) has endorsed Gary Johnson.
posted by bukvich at 5:15 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I totally understand that people are criticizing Clinton and not Trump because they take for granted that Trump is terrible, but it might be worth considering that that's not how it plays to a lot of voters. They're hearing so very much about how Clinton is terrible, and they already know that Trump is terrible. So the takeaway is that everyone is terrible, and they might as well stay home. I think there's a good chance that Trump will win my state because of this dynamic. I don't think he'll win, but I do think he may win my particular state because a lot of people are listening to the steady drum-beat of anti-Clinton stuff and deciding that they just won't vote.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:16 PM on September 5, 2016 [32 favorites]

I have never voted for either Clinton and I don't care at all about the emails. If you do you either have an incredibly naive approach to politics or are simply being deluded into thinking this minor mistake has some bearing on her actions as a president. My misgivings have always been about her policies AS STATED. Any other speculation is just conspiracy theory nonsense.

If you don't want to vote for Clinton, don't. If you plan to and are trying to help then stop engaging with any talk about the emails. Don't even defend her. Just ignore it and talk about things you like about her instead. If you can't do that, make fun of her opponent. Every micro-unit of energy spent publicly worrying about this helps Trump.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:19 PM on September 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

And someone should do a FPP on Schlafly, because she was genuinely an interesting character, even if she's not someone for whom I've ever had even the slightest bit of sympathy.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh good, a new thread so all the people who didnt read the last 1000 comments of the last one can argue over emails again.

Unfortunately, some people continue to restate previous false accusations. You have to push back tirelessly because that is the way the "Crooked Hillary" narrative gets established. A perfect example is the "Gore is a big fat liar because he claimed he invented the internet". False and uncorrected narratives helped put George Bush in the White House.
posted by JackFlash at 5:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [48 favorites]

A bit of advice to people who are resigned to voting for the "lesser of two evils" (especially when the "greater of the two evils" is the WORST. EVIL. EVER.): Focus your mindspace on the qualities of the person you reluctantly support. It also prepares you better for when you get reluctantly drawn into political discussions (heaven forbid), in real life and in internet places like HERE.

On preview, what Potomac Avenue said (without the "never voted for either Clinton" part)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:22 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Doris from Wapakoneta

Do-RIS! Repasent! Whoot! Whoot!

But srsly, the article CHT linked to above on Pam Bondi's 8,491 pages is fantastic. NYT, eat a bag of clicks. Go . . . Orlando Sentinel!

Among the tl;dr, Scott Maxwell points out that
1) Its acknowledged that Pam asked Trump for cash
2) well hell that ain't right right there
3) Among the reasons Bondi gives for extortion being okie dokie: They thoroughly investigated the complaints and it was all totes kewl.
4) 8,491 pages show they investigated NOTHING.
5) Calls for a special prosecutor, and rightly so

Hey NYT, didja hear about those wacky taco trucks?! Yeah. I know, they don't serve emails. Yeah. Yeah.
posted by petebest at 5:22 PM on September 5, 2016 [27 favorites]

so very much about how Clinton is terrible, and they already know that Trump is terrible.

Or they don't know he's terrible. Or just how terrible. A lot of people really don't pay attention to politics. Which is why people letting him skate is even worse. It takes a drumbeat to get through.
posted by chris24 at 5:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hey whatup party people in the thread house, I've been busy with work and houseguests how are our chances?
posted by vrakatar at 5:25 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

And someone should do a FPP on Schlafly, because she was genuinely an interesting character, even if she's not someone for whom I've ever had even the slightest bit of sympathy.

Phyllis Schlafly: Still wrong (and mean) after all these years. [nb: article from 2014]
posted by dersins at 5:25 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

The only reason people give a shit about the emails is that the GOP Congress spent millions of dollars of taxpayer money to say that where there's smoke, there's fire. (Well, that and two decades of a cottage industry of hating the Clintons. It's very profitable!) Even though there isn't smoke, it's a bit of chalk dust that only a fool would think would be smoke.

But if anything, this election has proven the W administration was right: they can make their own reality and enough people will believe it in the face of all contrary evidence. Have a rapist on staff? No story. Violate a bunch of laws paying off an attorney general so that your criminal "university" doesn't get investigated? Not really a story. Hillary coughs? OMG GET A DOCTOR ON THE LINE WE'RE GOING LIVE
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 5:26 PM on September 5, 2016 [25 favorites]

Yes I am aware that I broke my own rules to combat that here is another statement:

My daughter is very down with Hillary. She is 2. She yells GO HILAREE! whenever her name comes up in conversation. She has no idea that they are both women, she just thinks she's cool. It used to annoy me because my wife programmed it into her. Now I think it's amazing. I read the country bunny tonight, a kids book written in the 30s where a housewife bunny becomes the Easter bunny because (not despite) her being the mom of 21 baby bunnies. It made me cry, not least because my kid doesn't see it as weird at all, just totally and completely normal for a lady bunny to be president. So I can't say any of the cheesy official slogans, but I'm happy to yell GO! HELARY!!! whenever possible.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [31 favorites]

As for Schlafly, this tweet says it better than I can.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 5:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [23 favorites]

The Richmond Times-Dispatch (wikipedia claims it is the most important newspaper in the state of VA) has endorsed Gary Johnson.

For those curious, previous endorsements: Reagan, Reagan, Bush, Bush, Dole, Bush, Bush, McCain, Romney.
posted by one_bean at 5:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

I know the thread has probably moved on, but just wanted to say that I sympathize with acrasis's comments up thread. I also work as a Fed (in the foreign affairs field to boot) and have to admit that I have mixed feelings about the whole email thing. On one hand, I did roll my eyes a bit when the news first broke. On the other hand, I don't blame her - I've dealt a lot with State Dept IT, and like most government IT systems, it's not the greatest. And it's not like she's the only senior official to use her own system (Powell, Cheney, etc). At least she's not this guy.

Also, as an aside I'd like to say that as Secretary, she was quite popular with employees and had a number of successful initiatives (such as expanding benefits to same-sex couples). Too bad no one seems to be interested in talking about that.
posted by photo guy at 5:28 PM on September 5, 2016 [17 favorites]

This election is a choice between two futures.

Let me guess: Blade Runner or The Road.
posted by Lyme Drop at 5:31 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

Chris Wallace registered "D" to avoid disappointing his great journalist father Mike Wallace TOO much. Also, he gets a small bonus at Fox News for having the title "token Dem".
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:31 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Both are Battlestar Galactica but when Trump wins it ends during the pilot.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:32 PM on September 5, 2016 [11 favorites]

Why this coverage matters: my husband and I in the past week have had two encounters with totally different random people (not Bernie bros just regular working class low info voter folk) who have stated that both Trump and Clinton are equally "scary". Neither were able to actually express why Clinton is "scary" when pressed. They just know that they're both equally bad for.... reasons.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:33 PM on September 5, 2016 [33 favorites]

I know the thread has probably moved on...and have to admit that I have mixed feelings about the whole email thing.

It may move on but it'll be back. The thread has mixed feelings about the email.
posted by kingless at 5:34 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

No that's not what they found at all.

and

No, although they tried to spin it that way.

To be clear, that's why I put "investigation" in quotes, because even if you believed the spin it still only shows half the meetings were with donors. If the most biased portrayal still has her meet half the time with non-donors, it's impossible to say that you have to buy your way into a meeting with Clinton.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 5:34 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Chris Wallace is the duck and cover turtle.

I don't care about the e mails either but they keep coming back even if it's multiple bi-partisan requests for they to be dropped as subject matter, here.
posted by clavdivs at 5:35 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

In passing...I can't believe nobody's used this yet: "Head-first into a political abyss"
posted by GrammarMoses at 5:36 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

my husband and I in the past week have had two encountered with totally different random people (not Bernie bros just regular working class low info voter folk) who have stated that both Trump and Clinton are equally "scary".

Yeah, I have been volunteering for the Clinton campaign and we're doing voter registration. In one hour I encountered three different people who said they weren't going to vote because "they're all liars" and "both are the same".

Trump and Clinton are not the same, by any measure, and tolerance of news coverage and political commentary that treats them as such will land us a President Trump. If you have factual criticism of Clinton, then by all mean, drop it on us, but don't talk about how it's "clear" that Clinton did this or that when it is not clear and you have nothing to back up your claims. Because that leads to real, live people either not voting or voting Trump.
posted by Anonymous at 5:38 PM on September 5, 2016

I am inordinately pleased that Phyllis Schafly lived to see same-sex marriage become the law of the land. I am profoundly disappointed that she died before she could get to see the first female American president.
posted by Brie Fantasy at 5:47 PM on September 5, 2016 [63 favorites]

This election is a choice between two futures.

Hillary is either "Star Trek" (if she gets a friendly congress) or "Mad Max: Fury Road" (with a hostile congress)

Trump is TOTALLY "Idiocracy" with elements of "Blade Runner" AND "The Road" AND "Elisium" AND "The Handmaid's Tale" (from VP Pence) AND "Planet of the Apes" (emphasis on Heston yelling "you blew it all up!"), with a little "Death Race", "The Running Man" and "Hunger Games" tossed in for some Reality TV Entertainment.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:49 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

Trump is TOTALLY "Idiocracy"

Why 'Idiocracy' Would Actually Be A Utopia

Which is somehow more depressing.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump agrees to participate in all three presidential debates

Donald Trump said Monday that he will participate in all three presidential debates, ending lingering questions about whether the GOP presidential nominee would escalate complaints about the debate schedule or moderators.

“I expect to do all three. I look forward to the debates. I think it is an important element of what we’re doing. I think you have an obligation to do the debates,” Trump said Monday to reporters in Ohio. “I did them with the other [primary candidates] — I guess 11 debates. I look forward to the debates.”

Three weeks, y'all.

I would love to believe that the debate organizers will do everything in their power to produce the events that Americans deserve: enforcing turn-taking and time limits, pushing back against blatant lies, ignoring bullshit "many people are saying" non-scandals, etc.

I don't believe that, though. I'm fully expecting that the debates will get away from the moderators, that Trump will dominate the time simply by being the loudest and most audacious person in the room, and that most of his lies, misogyny, self-contradiction, and nonsense will go effectively unchallenged.

(Trump alludes to the size of his penis = finish your drink)

Sigh. This fuckin' year, man. I'll breathe a big sigh of relief when Trump loses in 63 days (two months! auggh!), but I still dread what comes after.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:55 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm seriously thinking Donald's popularity would rise if he took part in the debate with an eyepatch and cutlass.
posted by clavdivs at 5:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I would totally prefer Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho as president over Trump. Camacho was genuinely warm and charismatic. He cared about his nation. He recognized his limitations. And he didn't hesitate in changing his mind when presented with evidence he was wrong.
posted by um at 6:00 PM on September 5, 2016 [44 favorites]

that most of his lies, MISOGYNY, self-contradiction, and nonsense

While I agree that the moderators will probably do a shitty job of reining in most of this, the misogyny I think is what will do him in. He can't help it or hide it. And it just doesn't play well on TV. The moment with Carly Fiorina in the debate made him look bad. And Lazio trying to play dominance politics with the pledge in Clinton's 2000 senate debate didn't go well for him.
posted by chris24 at 6:00 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Washington Post: Trump's History of Corruption

...is mind-boggling. So why is Clinton supposedly the corrupt one?
posted by kingless at 6:02 PM on September 5, 2016 [44 favorites]

A decent WaPo piece on how Pence is essentially running his own campaign independent of Trump Tower, which involves spending as much time courting and placating the GOP establishment in the places he visits as he does on a campaign stage:

There is virtually no micromanaging of Pence by Trump or his top aides, in part because the Trump campaign is often preoccupied putting out its own fires. Pence is effectively running his own campaign, traveling where he sees fit and delivering a stump speech he crafted with his longtime advisers.

The Veep debate is going to be (dare I say it) interesting in its own right.
posted by holgate at 6:02 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

Buzzfeed News: Former “Apprentice” Contestants Say Donald Trump Has Never Cared About People Of Color

“The idea that you can establish some measure of credibility with three months before the presidential election? … Anyone who has had any interaction with people of color would know better.”

posted by ZeusHumms at 6:04 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's fucking ridiculous that one of the two main candidates running for president agreeing to participate in the presidential debates is headline news, but here we are.
posted by tzikeh at 6:05 PM on September 5, 2016 [64 favorites]

Even Glenn Greenwald can't take the hack journalism reporting on HRC these days
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:09 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

The one thing those who are saying Trump may win have never been able to satisfyingly explain is the demographic issue. Clinton has poor overall favorability but 68% favorability among Hispanics, higher among African Americans. And then there's women. And college educated whites.

What do people think is going to happen to those voters? Unprecedented voter suppression? Russian meddling?

To be honest, to me it just seems to be a way to downplay minority votes and voices. The narrative this entire election has been what white people think and what white people want. But that doesn't match national demographics.

Trump would have to win 40% of the Hispanic vote to win. How can that happen?

I eagerly await the oncoming encrushening of Trump so that we can finally give proper respect to changing demographics in this country and how this will affect elections.
posted by zutalors! at 6:14 PM on September 5, 2016 [43 favorites]

One part of Trump's case that I find puzzlingly amusing: "I know the system is pay for play, because I participated in it!"
What in that would encourage me to trust you?

"I know police corruption is a problem, because I was bribing them to ignore my speeding through stoplights!"

"You should support my push to become part of head management. I'm well aware of the issues with nepotism in our department, and I'll deal with them! Hell, I was fuckin' the boss' son. How do you think I became a supervisor?"

I actually have the ability to vote, for the first time, in an American election. I'm worried it'll be tough doing it overseas, though. Does Florida have voter ID laws or something else to get in the way?
posted by constantinescharity at 6:18 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

the misogyny I think is what will do him in. He can't help it or hide it. And it just doesn't play well on TV.

I honestly can't believe he is still here after the things he said to Megyn Kelly.
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:18 PM on September 5, 2016 [17 favorites]

The narrative this entire election has been what white people think and what white people want.

So much this. I meet with working class people every day and nearly all of them who have expressed political views to me are horrified by and afraid of Donald Trump.

Oh but they're mainly not straight white men so they don't get the Working Class Halo of Authenticity
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:20 PM on September 5, 2016 [22 favorites]

Despite What Trump Tweets, FiveThirtyEight Isn’t A Pollster
posted by Smart Dalek at 6:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

the misogyny I think is what will do him in. He can't help it or hide it. And it just doesn't play well on TV.

I honestly can't believe he is still here after the things he said to Megyn Kelly.

And that's exactly why I don't believe it will do him in. It hasn't yet, and there have been lots of opportunities.
posted by tzikeh at 6:21 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

election stressing you out? trump-anxiety getting you down? well, let madamjujujive soothe your tortured soul with the daily donald.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [20 favorites]

What do people think is going to happen to those voters? Unprecedented voter suppression? Russian meddling?

Yes. I don't know about the Russian meddling, but I guarantee at least one Trump supporter will show up at a polling place with a gun to scare off undesirables.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:25 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

after the things he said to Megyn Kelly

Ahh, I forgot that example. Well, Republican primary vs general helped him -- and he is way down with women compared to Romney so it and other misogyny hurt -- and she was part of the press, not the other candidate. Doing something similar thing to Clinton in front of a huge general election audience would have a much bigger impact. At least in the minds of moderates, persuadables. The 40% Trumpsters I don't really care about because they're beyond logic, reason and hope.
posted by chris24 at 6:25 PM on September 5, 2016

What do people think is going to happen to those voters? Unprecedented voter suppression? Russian meddling?

Yes. I don't know about the Russian meddling, but I guarantee at least one Trump supporter will show up at a polling place with a gun to scare off undesirables.

Sorry, that's not a theory. That's not enough. Minority voters will not back down from this election.
posted by zutalors! at 6:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Homunculus, you beat me to posting that Paul Krugman column. It is a must-read. I've been having ugly flashbacks to 2000 election coverage for a while now.
posted by SisterHavana at 6:28 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sorry, that's not a theory. That's not enough. Minority voters will not back down from this election.

You must be one of those people who does not expect the worst possible outcome literally all the time.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:30 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

You must be one of those people who does not expect the worst possible outcome literally all the time.

No, I want to hear a real theory that does not condescend to minority voters.
posted by zutalors! at 6:32 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

And not just voters, but in particular minority community organizers, lawyers, etc, who have been working for generations against suppression, to drive turnout, and to make voices heard.
posted by zutalors! at 6:33 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

A bit of advice to people who are resigned to voting for the "lesser of two evils"

I have another; learn something about the situation. Anyone who thinks this is a lesser of two evils situation is either covering for laziness and ignorance, or so deluded they can't think straight.

A friend of a friend, not an urban myth, had problems in the last election because of "Ben Ghazi". He wasn't sure what Ben did, but it sounded bad. He was called an idiot. People who believe the campaign of lies about Clinton are his peers, brainwashed.
posted by bongo_x at 6:34 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

NJ GOP candidate threatens ‘Daily Beast’ reporter: ‘I hope somebody rapes you today’

It really is just the party of Chan-nazis and trolls now. I fear for the world if any significant number of them are left in positions of power post November.
posted by Artw at 6:36 PM on September 5, 2016 [38 favorites]

I don't usually bother to read into pictures of world leaders together, but look at this picture of Obama and Putin and tell me it shouldn't be captioned I know and you know that I know
posted by Countess Elena at 6:37 PM on September 5, 2016 [55 favorites]

Man does Obama make Putin look small
posted by zutalors! at 6:41 PM on September 5, 2016 [36 favorites]

In happier news, Sanders did a better job surrogating today in NH than his Clinton Foundation bullshit on MTP yesterday. He said Clinton was the superior candidate in every way, called Trump a pathological liar, and said "the essence of his campaign is bigotry."
posted by chris24 at 6:42 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

escape from the potato planet: "I think you have an obligation to do the debates,” Trump said Monday to reporters in Ohio

tzikeh: It's fucking ridiculous that one of the two main candidates running for president agreeing to participate in the presidential debates is headline news, but here we are.

But it sounds like Donny agreed only because someone reminded him "there's only three, and you kind of have to." Only attending 11 out of 12 isn't so bad, but 2 out of three is terrible.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:47 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

but 2 out of three is terrible.

Unless you're Meat Loaf.
posted by bongo_x at 6:51 PM on September 5, 2016 [42 favorites]

NJ GOP candidate threatens ‘Daily Beast’ reporter: ‘I hope somebody rapes you today’

That page serves me an ad for dating Russian women. -_-
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:52 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Man does Obama make Putin look small

He has that effect on pretty much everyone, in pretty much every way.
posted by multics at 6:56 PM on September 5, 2016 [18 favorites]

That page serves me an ad for dating Russian women. -_-

I got Jesse Ventura pointing at me and yelling something.
posted by cashman at 6:58 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Note that her co-author, Ed Martin, is also the treasurer and Custodian of Records...

Ed Martin is also the chief of staff (of the former governor of Missouri) who deleted a ton of emails that were under subpoena.

Beyond that, he's a guy with tons of his own political stickers on his own vehicle, and who, when exiting his vehicle on a residential street, will stand in the street so you can't drive past him, just to display his power.
posted by notsnot at 7:00 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Media approach to Trump: "NOTHING TO SEE HERE, PEOPLE! JUST A BUNCH OF FIRE! TOTALLY NORMAL FIRE!"

A visible thermal excursion.
in a dumpster
posted by ctmf at 7:06 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

This election is taking such a toll on me that I just ordered Domino's.
posted by guiseroom at 7:07 PM on September 5, 2016 [14 favorites]

Oh and Hil's numbers dropped recently.

Says who? Not the polls, all of them. Two weeks ago (August 22) Clinton was at 47.4% and he was at 40.6%. Now she's at 47.0% and he's at 41.6%. So her "drop" over two weeks is 0.4% and he's one point higher. More importantly, the spread's been pretty stable since about August 28. He's currently plateaued below his pre-convention ceiling of 42.1% and she's above her pre-convention floor of 44.3%.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:10 PM on September 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

I got Jesse Ventura pointing at me and yelling something.

he thinks you're dating his russian.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:13 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

Washington Post: Trump's History of Corruption
The WaPo is solidly standing out in this sea of Trump-tolerant news media. Can we rip the title of "Paper of Record" out of the NYeT and put it where it belongs?

And the "bad week" for Hillary is looking much better... glad the 'final releases' about the Emails have come out more than 2 months before the election, so it can be "old news"and not an "October Surprise".
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:18 PM on September 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

This election is taking such a toll on me that I just ordered Domino's.

Jokes aside, this has happened to me multiple times. Junk Food and Joy Reid have been my go to things when I absolutely cannot take yet another false equivalence, ignored story on Trump, obvious lie, pushing the unicorns (hey, we found a young biracial black and hispanic woman who thinks Stein is incredible and she just can't trust the others, lets talk to her for 45 minutes instead of doing a Bondi story), and other nonsense.

For somebody who grew up really respecting journalism and idolizing the reporters on shows like 60 minutes, watching a lot of what is happening lately is crazy-making. And I'm pretty sure I've put on a good 5 pounds.

Stay healthy, yall. Go for walks while the weather is still somewhat nice. Stand up and walk around when you can. Try not to strangle anybody.
posted by cashman at 7:19 PM on September 5, 2016 [25 favorites]

Says who? Not the polls, all of them.

HuffPosts methodology is weird. Nobody else has Clinton's numbers that high; I think they are tossing out any polls which include Johnson and Stein.

The RealClearPolitics average is, I think, better. It shows in a 4 way race Clinton dropping from a ceiling of 44% to a current 41.3%, and Trump climbing from 36.3% to 37.9%. So that's a tightening from a near-8 point race to a 3.5 point race. So roughly cut in half.
posted by Justinian at 7:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thanks, cashman. I would have ordered Pizza Hut but the last time I did they forgot to put cheese on the pizza. After calling to alert them of their egregious oversight, they called me a liar and insisted there was cheese on the pizza and that I just wasn't seeing it. They brought me a replacement pizza regardless, which ALSO DIDN'T HAVE CHEESE ON IT. After calling the restaurant a second time they told me that if I don't specifically ask for cheese on the pizza there's a chance they won't put cheese on the pizza.

They're dead now.
posted by guiseroom at 7:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [42 favorites]

Additionally, HuffPost doesn't include the LA Times polls which consistently are the most favorable to Trump. Because reasons.
posted by Justinian at 7:25 PM on September 5, 2016

Here you go, cashman. A CNN reporter actually taking somebody to task for lying about his credentials. It may not be old school 60 Minutes, but it was the most reporting I've seen on American news in ages.
posted by sardonyx at 7:26 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've never been much of a fan of Mark Cuban but have been enjoying following @mcuban on Twitter. He's been aggressively tearing into the Donald - it's about all he's been tweeting about lately and he takes on his critics. This recent tweet has a rare video clip from The Trump Network that's worth seeing.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:34 PM on September 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

I've put on 20 pounds in the last year, most in the last six months. I'm not saying the election is the only reason, but it's definitely been a contributing factor.*

Thank god I'm not dating right now or I'd have to buy a whole new wardrobe.

*See, E.g., the infamous Convention Guacamole
posted by Superplin at 7:37 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

> Thank god I'm not dating right now or I'd have to buy a whole new wardrobe.

I've switched to muumuus.
posted by guiseroom at 7:39 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've found that harem pants with a stretch waist are forgiving. My local pizza place is not stingy with the cheese, alas.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:42 PM on September 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Additionally, HuffPost doesn't include the LA Times polls which consistently are the most favorable to Trump. Because reasons.

What are those reasons and why do you disagree with them?
posted by one_bean at 7:43 PM on September 5, 2016

guiseroom: I've switched to muumuus.

I've actually been eyeing some.

Not least because apparently there's a hashtag movement suggesting punishment for "disloyal" GOP members, like my (not currently running for re-election and thus momentarily bulletproof) senator Jeff Flake.
posted by Superplin at 7:43 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Additionally, HuffPost doesn't include the LA Times polls which consistently are the most favorable to Trump. Because reasons.

Big reasons, though. 538 doesn't even assign that poll a grade (as opposed to the UPI/CVoter tracker which gets a C+) because the methodology is so different from the other polls it feeds into its maw. It's not good or bad, it's just stuck with an iffy initial assumption and the T+3.5ish bias seems consistent, which means that Trump will probably be waving it around in November.

I think it's about a 47ish-43ish race right now versus a 49-40 after the DNC, which in EV terms is actually relatively static.
posted by holgate at 7:47 PM on September 5, 2016

Clinton didn't commit a crime with her email server. This was the finding of the FBI and the Department of Justice after a year long investigation. I don't understand why anyone is still arguing about this?
posted by humanfont at 8:03 PM on September 5, 2016 [20 favorites]

The lack of enthusiasm for Clinton in where I live -- the epitome of a Democratic suburban stronghold -- is striking. No bumper stickers. No lawn signs. Everyone sighs and grimaces when her name comes up -- unlike Obama about ehom everyone was all smiles, big ones from liberals, tolerant ones from conservatives of the sort that live around here.

As for Trump, guys aren't scared to mention they like him in mixed company, the way they were a couple of months ago, and their wives do an attentive nod not a dismissive shrug. One well known guy jogging in "Hillary for Prison" t-shirts. I think there'll be some some non-ironic MAGA stuff soon.

Maybe Clinton can rely upon yellow dog Democrats to drag her into the endzone, or for Trump to commit some unrecoverable foul (at this point not sure what that would be) but if she wants to be sure of a victory she's got to do something to close the sale. The media can't do it -- it has blown its wad against Trump. You can't run 3-4 anti-Trump stories a day weeks on end and leave anyone carrying any more.
posted by MattD at 8:03 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maybe Clinton can rely upon yellow dog Democrats to drag her into the endzone

No, just as with Obama, it will be people of color who win this election for Clinton.
posted by one_bean at 8:10 PM on September 5, 2016 [29 favorites]

...and the unrecoverable foul for Trump was being a racist piece of shit
posted by one_bean at 8:13 PM on September 5, 2016 [16 favorites]

That Trump Network promo madamjujujive cited above is hilarious, those testimonials brimming with portent. "Get on board. Don't think about it." A snake-oil slogan for the ages.
posted by valetta at 8:17 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

You can't run 3-4 anti-Trump stories a day weeks on end and leave anyone [caring] any more.

And yet you can apparently reheat nothingburger time and time again against Clinton and people will swallow it? Well, maybe you can, and more's the fucking pity.

I mean, we MeFi oldies know where you stand here -- which is fine enough -- but you seem not to have noticed that Trump is the kind of candidate who attracts supporters who'd react to a bumper sticker or a lawn sign by rear-ending you or poisoning your dog.

(And anyway, bumper stickers and lawn signs are a shitty index. The Obama campaign hated distributing lawn signs. Lawn signs are for state commissioner of widgets.)
posted by holgate at 8:18 PM on September 5, 2016 [24 favorites]

I still think the factor that will turn this from a 'squeaker' to a 'blowout' is Gary Johnson picking up support from Republicans who were "hold your nose and vote Trump" and the news that the Richmond VA Times-Dispatch, a dependable Republican endorser since Reagan, giving the Libertarian its endorsement is a good first sign. There are many "highly respected" Rs out there who are still "Never Trump" but know that they can't make Johnson into a true contender, just a "sure spoiler". We are just now moving from "not yet" time to "maybe now" time... it depends on whether they want to give Johnson enough of a boost to put him in the third podium on the debates (if not, they'll keep waiting until they feel they 'have to', so if Hillary remains semi-solid they may never come out for a Not Trump). And an "acceptable conservative alternative" will allow Hillary to have an 'easy' victory with even less than 47% (remember, with Ross Perot in the thick of things, Bill Clinton won his first Presidential election with 43%).
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:22 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

A snake-oil slogan for the ages.

Cuban's one of those actual billionaires -- let's just state for the record that he's a billionaire mostly because he lucked out with the timing on web-prehistory streaming media -- who recognises that Trump's shitty barrel-scraping infomercial business ventures are not anything an actual billionaire does. What's also hilarious here is that Cuban, who is no model of gentility, clearly treats Trump as déclassé.
posted by holgate at 8:25 PM on September 5, 2016 [29 favorites]

> And an "acceptable conservative alternative" will allow Hillary to have an 'easy' victory with even less than 47%

Added bonus for Senator Turtle: She won't be elected by a true "majority" - no Supreme Court nominations for her!

(This is a no good, very bad, absolutely terrible outcome for everyone, including especially the American people and Ruth Bader Ginsburg.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:26 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton didn't commit a crime with her email server. This was the finding of the FBI and the Department of Justice after a year long investigation.

Not quite. They found that she didn't intentionally break the law, but that she was "extremely careless." And the crime doesn't require intentionally breaking the law; it requires "mishandl[ing] classified information either intentionally or in a grossly negligent way." (Source: that link to fbi.gov.) And I'm not sure how it's possible to be "extremely careless" without being "grossly negligent."
posted by John Cohen at 8:27 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

On the Goring of Hillary and Narrativeitis by Craig Mazin (Storify, fast read).
posted by maudlin at 8:30 PM on September 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Since May 2015, HuffPo has had 233 national polls showing Clinton over Trump and 25 with Trump over Clinton. And white folks wander around wondering to themselves where all those enthusiastic Clinton voters are. And people obsess over every little twitch in their favored poll tracker. Twenty years from now, the story of this election is going to be so obvious it'll be stupid: white people cannot elect a president on their own in 2016, and Republicans nominated a white nationalist for president. That's it. The rest has been the most fascinating, terrifying reality show the news media could produce.
posted by one_bean at 8:31 PM on September 5, 2016 [45 favorites]

RedorGreen, Ruth will never retire, she'll probably outlive us all. And even if Hillary doesn't get a 'real' mandate, she may get a friendly Senate - Trump's anti-coattails could still win the Ds the 3 seats they need. So maybe not so bad.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:32 PM on September 5, 2016

Not quite. They found that she didn't intentionally break the law, but that she was "extremely careless." And the crime doesn't require intentionally breaking the law; it requires "mishandl[ing] classified information either intentionally or in a grossly negligent way." (Source: that link to fbi.gov.) And I'm not sure how it's possible to be "extremely careless" without being "grossly negligent."

Now that the full report has been published, it's become clear Comey held his press conference so that he could exaggerate his agency's findings against Clinton, not downplay them as first assumed.
posted by one_bean at 8:32 PM on September 5, 2016 [75 favorites]

"extremely careless" is not the legal standard, and it was "extremely irregular" for the FBI director to hold a political press conference about an investigation that resulted in no recommended charges, while insinuating unspecified wrong doing that did not rise to a criminal level. Oh, and then the FBI released all their investigation materials to House Republicans, "extremely irregularly".

But we've only been over this 519 times, maybe the next thread we can start with SMOKE and SHADOWS around EMAILS, that should start the discussion off on a productive note.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:43 PM on September 5, 2016 [65 favorites]

They found that she didn't intentionally break the law, but that she was "extremely careless."

Just who is "they"? As it turns out, that is the personal (political) opinion of James Comey. That personal opinion is not supported by the evidence and reports of the actual FBI agents conductioning the investigation, which is why the recent release of actual FBI agent reports is so important. There is no indication that Clinton ever mailed even one single piece of classified information. And regarding the people emailing to her, they told the FBI that they were extremely careful, contrary to Comey's opinion. "Authors of the e-mails stated that they used their best judgment in drafting the messages and that it was common practice at State to carefully word e-mails on UNCLASSIFIED networks so as to avoid sensitive details or "talk around" REDACTED classified information.

The FBI agent reports indicate that no only didn't she break the law, she did nothing wrong at all. A big nothing.
posted by JackFlash at 8:52 PM on September 5, 2016 [75 favorites]

But, JackFlash, it sure is nice to see the progression in action from "didn't break the law" to "didn't intentionally break the law" through "extremely careless" on to "grossly negligent" and out at "committed a crime", all in one short comment!
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:56 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

I'm not sure how it's possible to be "extremely careless" without being "grossly negligent."

Honestly, it's down to the fact that she was Secretary of State, which meant that her job was sui generis and involved doing shit that regularly got her out of range of the fucking creaky government networks that Obama inherited in 2009. It would have been nice if there had been flexible and agile systems and processes in place to accommodate that during a period of rapidly advancing technology, but it turns out that Colin and Condi were winging it as well, just in Colin's time it was an AOL account.

Of course a fucking desk jockey like Jim Comey is going to think that's careless because he's never had to be strapped into a fucking C-17 to do his fucking job.
posted by holgate at 9:11 PM on September 5, 2016 [24 favorites]

The most newsworthy thing—and a genuinely astonishing finding—is that the moderator of the third scheduled presidential debate has already ‘thrown’ the questions for a televised debate at least once at the insistence of Rupert Murdoch, conveyed by Ailes, specifically in order to politically harm Murdoch’s least preferred candidate, Donald Trump.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:16 PM on September 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

people, we could have four to eight YEARS of holding Clinton's feet to the fire and showing how much we haven't drunk the kool-aid in the echo chamber by asking the hard questions and pointing out how her email handling totally wouldn't fly in our IT departments. Let's just elect her and send the white supremacist candidate back into the dustbin of history first, k? Then there will be so much fun times to be had talking about Clinton's "optics," I promise
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:20 PM on September 5, 2016 [49 favorites]

I took a break from these threads for the long weekend, finally get home from the airport tonight and you folks are still having the exact same damn arguments about the fucking emails that you were last week. Jesus, give a break.
posted by octothorpe at 9:23 PM on September 5, 2016 [41 favorites]

also when all this is over I want prez Clinton to sign an executive order granting Joy Reid a prime time show and a life size working replica of the starship Enterprise
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:26 PM on September 5, 2016 [26 favorites]

Here's the relevant article from Tonycpsu's link, above:

The Revenge of Roger’s Angels

[…] Murdoch was not a fan of Trump’s and especially did not like his stance on immigration. (The antipathy was mutual: “Murdoch’s been very bad to me,” Trump told me in March.) A few days before the first GOP debate on Fox in August 2015, Murdoch called Ailes at home. “This has gone on long enough,” Murdoch said, according to a person briefed on the conversation. Murdoch told Ailes he wanted Fox’s debate moderators — Kelly, Bret Baier, and Chris Wallace — to hammer Trump on a variety of issues.[…]

On the night of August 6, in front of 24 million people, the Fox moderators peppered Trump with harder-hitting questions. But it was Kelly’s question regarding Trump’s history of crude comments about women that created a media sensation. He seemed personally wounded by her suggestion that this spoke to a temperament that might not be suited for the presidency. “I’ve been very nice to you, though I could probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me,” he said pointedly.

After the debate, Trump called Ailes and screamed about Kelly. “How could you do this?” he said, according to a person briefed on the call. Ailes was caught between his friend Trump, his boss Murdoch, and his star Kelly. “Roger lost control of Megyn and Trump,” a Fox anchor said.

The parties only became more entrenched when Trump launched a series of attacks against Kelly, including suggesting that her menstrual cycle had influenced her debate question. […]

posted by Joe in Australia at 9:36 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I love these election posts, but this is yet another week where it's 1 am Monday morning (ok, Tuesday this week because of the holiday.) I've finally caught up with the comments, but now I have to go to sleep. By the time I return from work 17-18 hours hence, there will be another 500+ comments. Thus the near-Sisyphean task of reading election comments begins anew.

When I get back, can we please, please, please have the email stuff settled for once and for all? Please?
posted by double block and bleed at 10:03 PM on September 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

So apparently Ann Coulter was silly enough to go on the Rob Lowe roast on Comedy Central.

I'm only sorta following the reactions on Twitter, but predictably nobody seems to be holding back.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:08 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm absolutely certain she knew perfectly well what all the rules were, she's smart and she's a wonk and she's lying about being confused. Seems to be a fairly normative and inconsequential political lie to me.

OK, I just have to say that I have worked with a LOT of smart wonks. And let me tell you, there is no one more baffled by anything to do with computers and with IT policies than your standard boomer wonk.
posted by lunasol at 10:14 PM on September 5, 2016 [15 favorites]

I mean, oh god, you should have heard the wailing and unhappiness when we switched to google mail/apps (from Outlook) at my last job.
posted by lunasol at 10:15 PM on September 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am a total wonk on multiple subjects, and this morning I WAS BAFFLED that I got a Google Update notice, but I couldn't connect to anything. ANYTHING. Was it a virus? Was my computer no longer compatible with Google? I checked the router, asked my wife if I could use her phone-
*just waking up* "Did you pay Comcast for this month?"
"....Oh."

Being a wonk doesn't help. At all.
posted by happyroach at 10:42 PM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

I seriously hope that Clinton wasn't intimately involved and understood the workings of her email server, I'd like to think the Secretary of State has more important things to do. I'm pretty sure she told someone "make it work" and they did. Or do we think she should compile her own OS too? Maybe that's how she relaxes at night.

This whole thing is ridiculous.
posted by bongo_x at 11:03 PM on September 5, 2016 [35 favorites]

Seriously tired of the "Clinton should have known better" about email. In 2009, she asked everyone involved if it was OK. Including a Colin Powell, a previous Secretary of State. Everyone said it was ok.

So how could she have intuitively known that eight years later, that becomes the focus of the opposition against her? Because honestly, she has lived in a world where she just has to get shit done, and everyone is going to find some reason to sue her for something anyway.

If you want to be frustrated, be frustrated at the terrible state of IT practices of the GSA and the Government security community that leads to shadow IT like operations. And this one was with a blessing, and it is not that big of a deal.

Compared to the missing emails on the server run by Cheney during his time as Vice President that probably included his direct responsibility for the Valeria Plame security leak, Hillary is definitely someone I trust to do this the right way. And would probably force a few GSA leads to read "The Phoenix Project" to get their head out of the 1990s world of IT management as well.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:08 PM on September 5, 2016 [31 favorites]

How far ahead do you think Clinton should be?
Let's see, Mitt Romney lost the 2012 election but he got just over 60 million votes. The largest audience Trump's "Apprentice" show ever got was almost 29 million in the season finale of the first season... recent seasons have averaged less than 10 million. And many of those TV watchers are not eligible to vote. On Prime Time TV when there were only three networks, a "30 share" was considered a hit; today most channels are delighted to get a "10 share". Of course, a baseball player is a success with a .300 batting average and only The Super Bowl gets close to a "50 share" anymore (And that's with almost as many viewers as there were voters for both candidates combined in 2012... and remember, a lot of people watching TV aren't voters)

So what was I saying? Compared to his "TV popularity", he shouldn't be polling over 20%. Maybe if he were running against Tyrion Lannister or Rick Grimes...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:54 PM on September 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

If people are going to be criticizing Hillary Clinton for her time at State, they should actually look into her actual policies and actions there, and judge her based on that. The email situation is just a distraction, lacking substance.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:55 PM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

Boy, if those taco trucks have Wi-Fi, we should be able to arrive at a consensus on the relative cosmic importance of Hillary's emails sometime in Chelsea's second term.
posted by y2karl at 12:00 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Donald Trump Is the Anti–Labor Day Candidate: Running Against Fair Wages, Worker Rights, and Unions. And the party’s platform is a litany of foolish dreams and ugly thoughts.
posted by homunculus at 12:07 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hillary Clinton: The China hawk - "For some US officials, including a few angling for senior positions in a future Clinton administration, the Hanoi meeting is evidence that she would be prepared to adopt a tougher approach to China. In Beijing, the meeting reinforced the impression that she was the principal China hawk within the Obama administration."

These tensions set the stage for what will be one of the central challenges facing the next president. The new, more confrontational US approach, first signalled by Mrs Clinton in Hanoi, has not persuaded the Chinese to abandon its plans for the South China Sea. As a result, the new administration will face a choice between doubling down on the same strategy or trying to find some way to accommodate Chinese demands...

Over the past few years, the US has expanded security co-operation with Vietnam and the Philippines, both of which are involved in territorial disputes with China, and backed a court case brought by the Philippines. An international tribunal ruled in July that many of China’s claims in the South China Sea were unlawful...

Along with the Hanoi meeting, the stand-off over Mr Chen was another piece of evidence for those in Beijing who believe Mrs Clinton to be a relatively hardline voice about China, both on security issues and human rights. Indeed, Chinese suspicions about Mrs Clinton date back to the 1995 World Conference on Women in Beijing, when she insisted that “women’s rights are human rights and human rights are women’s rights” — remarks that were not broadcast in China.

As a result, many analysts in China would expect a prospective Clinton administration to be more willing to confront Beijing. “She has always been hard on China since her first visit in 1995,” says Chu Shulong, an international relations expert at Tsinghua University. “That’s her style.”

Shi Yinhong, another international relations expert at Renmin University, agrees: “Hillary will be tougher on China than Obama...”

However the pivot has not been without its critics. Hugh White, a former Australian defence official and an influential observer on Asia, believes that the US is not prepared for the huge risks and costs that would be required to actually shift China’s strategy...

So how would President Clinton act in Asia? ... Should Mrs Clinton win the election, the ideal situation for her would be for Congress to approve the [TPP] trade deal before her inauguration. But if that does not happen, she would face the difficult choice of whether to reopen an agreement which she has described as central to American influence in the region, but which she now believes to be flawed in practice. At the Asean summit in Laos this week, Mr Obama will try to reassure Washington’s regional partners that the trade agreement still remains on track.

posted by kliuless at 12:12 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Clinton wins either Georgia or Arizona, states that haven't gone blue since well before we started using the terms red and blue, the press will definitely call it a landslide. It doesn't take a huge margin in the popular vote to win a lot of states, and there are enough never-Trumpers out there to make some normally red states winnable.
posted by nangar at 12:12 AM on September 6, 2016

Phyllis Schlafly was quite a piece of work -- a woman campaigning against the idea of women working, so she created and ran a very successful and large national organization.

I think, in her honor, that we should re-launch the Equal Rights Amendment. Who would oppose it today?
posted by msalt at 12:16 AM on September 6, 2016 [33 favorites]

mrzarquon, all of the things you're saying there—that everyone is going to find some reason to sue her and that preceding administrations avoided getting held responsible for things because the evidence wasn't in the public record—are the sort of things that make me certain she knew exactly what she was doing. This is the equivalent of a government official keeping paper records at their house, in filing cabinets with trapdoors under them to drop them into an industrial shredder-pulverizer in the basement at the push of a button.

It's just absurd to suggest that this high-ranking government official who is a lawyer and somehow had the presence of mind to have all the emails checked by a team of lawyers before handing them over, as she was taking up the office of SoS really simply missed the significance of having those records under her and her team's complete control, rather than in the hands of a neutral government archivist and available to any elected official with sufficient authority. (Or unelected official, for that matter.)

But, as sotonohito said in the passage quoted by lunasol, in a world where none of those elected officials are going to be held to the same standard this is "a fairly normative and inconsequential political lie": I mean, one way Congressional Republicans could have been sure to take her down with this (not to mention prevent things like this from happening in the future, as if they even care about that) would have been to immediately pass legislation holding themselves and all other members of Congress to the same standards. It would've been the equivalent of that comedy trope where everyone in line takes a step backwards, so that the one person left looks like they volunteered/stuck their neck out on purpose. But there's no way that would have happened.
posted by XMLicious at 12:20 AM on September 6, 2016

How far ahead do you think Clinton should be?

I'd settle for about 7-8%. That's enough to give a nice cushion. Right now one October Surprise puts Trump in the lead.
posted by Justinian at 12:24 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

The problems I have with Clinton are the problems I have with politicians in general, and the US system in particular.

The problems I have with Trump are so much bigger and more colorful than that. You'd think he'd actually benefit from not being a practiced politician in that regard, but adding the impossibility of one person coming in and completely changing the system with the impossibility of him, specifically, being that person...

My ideal candidate doesn't exist and wouldn't win anyway. Clinton being good at politics is a plus, rather than a minus, even if I don't like the politics she has to be good at.
posted by gadge emeritus at 12:38 AM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm still waiting for a taco truck, period. We got burritos (Mexican! woooooo!) and empanadas (Colombian, so delicious) and plantain chips and there's even a Venezuelan food truck, BUT NO TACOS.

This is making me hungry and it's not lunch yet. I hope the Colombian or Mexican food truck is around today. dammit... only on Friday... empanadas!!

(already registered to vote, no worries)
posted by fraula at 1:13 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is the equivalent of a government official keeping paper records at their house, in filing cabinets with trapdoors under them to drop them into an industrial shredder-pulverizer in the basement at the push of a button.

It's just absurd to suggest that this high-ranking government official who is a lawyer and somehow had the presence of mind to have all the emails checked by a team of lawyers before handing them over

No, just no. As the full FBI release shows, she disregarded Powell's advice to try to skirt/break the law and instead set up a system that retained all records required by the law. And you think it's some dastardly proof that she had lawyers doing the personal/business division? You think she should have personally gone through 50,000+ emails? And if she had done it herself, I'm sure people would be saying she should've let a third party do it. Hell, even Comey who was clearly trying to bring her down a notch or completely said there were no issues or nefariousness with the separation.
posted by chris24 at 2:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [34 favorites]

I'm pretty sure she told someone "make it work" and they did. Or do we think she should compile her own OS too? Maybe that's how she relaxes at night.

Folks. Folks, I couldn't believe it when I read it in the paper today. I know! I know. We're all shocked that I can still be shocked by Crooked Hillary. That's how short-circuited she is; she's literally shocking you with electricity.

But look. We all knew that Crooked Hillary lied about Benghazi. We all know she lied about the emails in her computer. But did you know she lied about her operating system too?

When I heard that she compiles her own OS for the Clinton Foundation pay-for-play email server, I needed to know what that meant. I wanted to know how to make the best operating system. I wanted an operating system that's going beat China's computers like a dog. So I asked the best experts.

"Donald," they said, "you have to optimize it."

And I said, "How? Tell me how."

"With flags," they said. Can you believe it? "You have to compile it with flags."

Crooked Hillary said she was a patriot. Crooked Hillary said that she loves my country. But did she compile her operating system with American flags? No, my friends. She did not. This is going to make you sick. So sick, I almost don't want to tell you. But you deserve to know. She used the -O3 flag. At first I didn't get it. It sounds like gobbledygook. But if you put it in a mirror and read it backwards, you all know what that stands for. EO. "Europe Okay."

And do you know what else? You invoke it with the taco emoji. I tell you, my head was spinning.

[Fake]
posted by compartment at 2:31 AM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

Funny how they don't have to unpack Clinton's history with the moderators. Oh yeah. That's because she doesn't pick fights or hold grudges.

No, that's obviously because she doesn't hold press conferences.
Also, journalists don't want make her mad by telling the truth about her, because they are afraid of being killed or mysteriously vanishing.

It's really not so hard to think like a Republican, if you really try.
posted by sour cream at 2:32 AM on September 6, 2016

It's really not so hard to think like a Republican, if you really try.
It's called Fantasizing.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fellas, fellas:

Donald asks: "Does she look presidential, fellas? Give me a break."

Plus, I just learned on liberal MSNBC that yesterday Hillary coughed for almost 2 minutes. How presidential is that, fellas?

Tim Kaine's got your back, Hillary.
posted by madamjujujive at 3:01 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Here's my prediction," Kaine said. "At the end of the second term of Hillary Clinton Donald Trump will still be saying that very same thing as he's hawking bottled water somewhere and we've forgotten he'd ever run for president of the United States."

Tim Kaine flavored shade is delicious.
posted by like_neon at 3:06 AM on September 6, 2016 [66 favorites]

I continue to hold out hope that Donald Trump spends at least part of Hillary's term as President sharing a jail cell with Bernie Madoff and we get to see the TRUMPs removed from 'his' buildings and replaced with something representing honest business.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hooooooly smokes Dad with the sharp darts
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:18 AM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump tops Clinton 45% to 43% in new CNN survey of likely voters.

Hopefully an outlier, but let's keep fighting about bullshit email stuff.
posted by chris24 at 3:30 AM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

"likely voters" = white people.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:36 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton 45% to 43% in new CNN survey

Full results here. (PDF)
posted by lampshade at 3:40 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary Clinton's Personal Emails Are the Key to Understanding Emailgate

"3. That said, Clinton was well aware that her department emails were official records and had to be retained. The evidence makes it very clear she knew this. What's more, while her use of a private server may not have been known widely, there were plenty of people who did know. It's hard to believe that she did this with FOIA in mind, since a non-government email account would have been a spectacularly stupid and ineffective way to try to avoid FOIA requests.

4. Clinton did in fact retain all of her emails on her private server. When the State Department asked for them, she turned everything over to them promptly, with no hedging or negotiation.

5. There's been lots of feverish speculation that Clinton may have deleted some official emails before turning them over to State, but there's no evidence that this ever happened."

Another good analysis from Kevin Drum.
posted by chris24 at 3:49 AM on September 6, 2016 [28 favorites]

Oh, and for the "she's smart and a wonk and is just playing dumb but really knows/should know all the technical stuff" crowd:

"There's abundant evidence that Clinton was almost completely technically illiterate. She had virtually no experience even using a computer, and frequently discarded new BlackBerries after a few days because she was frustrated that they worked differently than her old one. She had no computer on her desk. She was famously confused by her iPad. Like a lot of people, she basically treated email like magic: you type some words, press a button, and your words end up somewhere else. All the intricacies of protocols and servers and intermediate storage and backups were like so much Greek to her."
posted by chris24 at 3:51 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

"likely voters" = white people.

Even in RVs her lead dropped 5 points from the last CNN poll.
posted by chris24 at 3:56 AM on September 6, 2016

So America's voters are rewarding Trump for (by his own declaration) NEVER using email. Well, we get everything we need from Twitter, right? Yeah, even if we survive the Assault of the Donald, America is doomed.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:00 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

What's the Justinian index currently?
posted by Yowser at 4:04 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, thankfully NBC's just released poll shows Clinton leading 48-42 (2 way) and 41-37 (4 way) among registered voters, same as last week. So maybe Twitter America isn't doomed yet.
posted by chris24 at 4:05 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

The NBC poll can't make up for the TEN POINT swing in the CNN poll. Clinton's honest and trustworthy number is 35% in the CNN poll... vs 50% for Trump. Yes, 50% of the population thinks that a guy shown by every fact checking body in the country to be the biggest liar of any current politician (and rivaled only by human garbage machine Michelle Bachmann for the recent past) is honest and trustworthy.

JCPL: moderate-high. If it wasn't for the NBC poll it would have spiked all the way to HIGH.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

oneswellfoop, even Republican pollsters are sharing your concern on CNN's poll.

"Would love to see explanation of their "likely" voter model, which drops sample by 100, more than half HRC voters."
posted by chris24 at 4:15 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Calm down people, she still has an extremely likely path to winning that does not even including winning Florida OR Ohio, both of which she's leading in the polling average by 2-3 points.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:20 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Calm down people

Clearly you've never met me.
posted by Justinian at 4:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [36 favorites]

The only bright sign in that 50% "honest and trustworthy" rating for Trump is that now is the best time in America's history to go into business selling snake oil, Florida off-shore real estate and shares in a Broadway musical about Hitler. No, wait, that last one would probably become a real hit...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:22 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I do technical support at a large R1 university. Believe me when I tell you that there are actualfax geniuses who don't know what a web browser is. I have had to explain over the phone what a cursor is. I frequently have to provide the most basic of "click there to upload a document" sort to a state supreme court justice who teaches a class as an adjunct from time to time (and he's a good two decades younger than Hillary).
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

Clinton up by 1 in Texas in new Washington Post Poll. :)
posted by colt45 at 4:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

I agree that she's going to win TD Strange. I have faith in America - well, black, brown, female and LGBT America - but I don't want to just win, I want to nuke him from orbit to be sure. I want to burn his movement to the ground and salt the earth so it never rises again.
posted by chris24 at 4:33 AM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

@tbogg
NBC: Hillary coughed
Drudge: Hillary is dying!
538: Odds Hillary has black lung
Vox: What is coughing?
CNN: Flight 370 still missing

posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:41 AM on September 6, 2016 [38 favorites]

Abc News:
"Latest on immigration: Trump says "could be" that some undocumented immigrants stay"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:43 AM on September 6, 2016

NBC: Hillary coughed

That is soooo one-sided reporting! Fact of the matter is, both sides cough.
posted by sour cream at 4:45 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

That Abc headline is kinda misleading actually. Trump is still saying all undocumented immigrants have to be deported, but maybe some of them can come back. It's the same vague bullshit.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:45 AM on September 6, 2016

I agree that she's going to win TD Strange...

And not implying you don't want the same thing. Just commenting on why I don't like even tightening of polls.
posted by chris24 at 4:46 AM on September 6, 2016

Trump adviser argues the Civil War was about free speech
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:53 AM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

BREAKING NEWS: Autocorrect picks "I'M WITH STUPID" for running mate.
posted by y2karl at 4:55 AM on September 6, 2016

Love that he'll be in charge of agriculture in the Trump administration. I wonder what cool innovations he might have in mind for our nations farms. 🙃
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:55 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kaine Hits Trump For Saying Clinton "Doesn't Look Presidential"

[real, but misleading]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:12 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

sometimes you get the oligarchs you deserve...

Inside Bill Clinton’s nearly $18 million job as ‘honorary chancellor’ of a for-profit college
posted by ennui.bz at 5:34 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I love how for the past couple of months everybody, especially the press, has been insinuating really bad things about Clinton for not having a press conference for XXX days and then yesterday she has one and it barely makes the news. And by 'I love' I actually mean wtf.
posted by localhuman at 5:35 AM on September 6, 2016 [44 favorites]

There is no evidence that Laureate received special favors from the State Department in direct exchange for hiring Bill Clinton, but we're going to insinuate that's what happened anyway. Thanks for the additional helping of muck, WaPo!
posted by yhbc at 5:41 AM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]

I think the very concept of press conferences is highly overratted, especially with the modern lapdog model of the press. Why bother with a presser when there's so many other, better, ways of getting the message out? The press never presses (heh) anyone on the tough issues or problems, they're just stenographers taking down the words of the mighty, so who needs the big flashbubs and gazillion microphones presser of yore?

Go on various talking head shows, have townhalls, do basically what Clinton has been doing, and you get your message out just fine, and sometimes even face tougher and more persistent questions than the once mighty fourth estate ever bothers asking.

I agree it's pathetic that the long line of evil Clinton not doing pressers for this many days bit ended without anyone really acknowledging that she did a presser, but ultimately I think her approach to things is better than having a weekly event where reporters talk over each other.
posted by sotonohito at 5:49 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I love how for the past couple of months everybody, especially the press, has been insinuating really bad things about Clinton for not having a press conference for XXX days and then yesterday she has one and it barely makes the news.

Oh, it was front and center on NPR this morning. Not the actual answers she gave to the questions, mind you (which were proclaimed standard and not of consequence), but the fact that she did it. The press conference angst is 100% journalist inside baseball and I really wish they would just admit that instead of insinuating that something is rotten in the state of Denmark because Clinton is happy to do all manner of press other than standing in front of a room full of 50 journalists all shouting random questions at her and trying to get themselves in front of the business end of a camera in order to increase their own professional prestige.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:49 AM on September 6, 2016 [35 favorites]

Get ready for a whole new round of articles talking about Clinton only holding one press conference in 280+ days and counting.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:06 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now that the fourth, fifth, and nth walls are well and truly broken with #trumpcantswim trending on Twitter, I have to conclude that we're living in some sort of CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN where things you write actually come true.

So maybe we should cool it a little, OK?
posted by whuppy at 6:06 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

ABC tied the press conference to the introduction of Hillary's new campaign plane, which is the first time she's shared a plane with the press corps.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:09 AM on September 6, 2016

Or do we think she should compile her own OS too? Maybe that's how she relaxes at night.

I'm now imagining Hillary and Bill sitting together in bed. Bill's reading a book, with a highlighter tucked behind the cover. Hillary's quixotically staring at a battered circa-2005 Dell Laptop sitting on the bed.

She swears.

"Hey Bill. Can I borrow your iPad? I'm in menuconfig, the Wi-Fi drivers for this thing don't work, and can't remember if this laptop had an ATI or NVidia GPU"

Bill silently hands her his iPad.

"Oh, and that tar command I always forget?"

Bill grins, looks at a post-it carefully hidden on the side of his nightstand. "Was it -czvf?"

"Duh. Thanks." Hillary, now laser-focused, finds the answer she's looking for on Stack Overflow, types some more, finally types make and leans back while Kernel 4.7.2 compiles on the ancient laptop.

"Hey hun?" Bill asks. "I've got to fly out to New Hampshire at the crack of dawn. Do you think you can postpone setting up sendmail until tomorrow?"

"Of course. Learned my lesson on that one. I think I'm more of a postfix person these days..."

Bill goes back to his book, and mumbles something about "buy a router like normal people." Hillary picks up an inexplicably-leatherbound copy of O'Reilly's "DNS and BIND (5th Edition)" from her nightstand, and begins flipping through it while her code compiles.
posted by schmod at 6:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [90 favorites]

Has Trump hit his ceiling?

In poll after poll, Trump isn't even close to winning a majority of the vote. While he’s narrowed the gap between his campaign and Hillary Clinton in recent weeks, in the past 21 national polls conducted using conventional phone or internet methodologies over the last five weeks, Trump’s high-water mark in a head-to-head matchup with Clinton is 44 percent.

posted by kirkaracha at 6:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

over the last five weeks, Trump’s high-water mark in a head-to-head matchup with Clinton is 44 percent.

Trump has never been above 44% the entire election according to Huffpost Pollster and only once (45%) very briefly at Real Clear Politics.
posted by chris24 at 6:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have to conclude that we're living in some sort of CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN where things you write actually come true.

This was tentatively established a few threads back; the dominant hypothesis was that there may exist a reality-making typewriter which is being passed around Metafilter but no one knows they had it until afterward
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:22 AM on September 6, 2016 [36 favorites]

Future headline: 2016 Electoral College votes are finalized. Trump comes in second, Clinton next-to-last.
posted by DanSachs at 6:23 AM on September 6, 2016 [37 favorites]

Oh, it was front and center on NPR this morning.
I know full well that hanging out here has, uh, affected my views on how this election is being covered, but NPR had me swearing back at them, this morning. Literally calling this a "horse race;" "[Trump] has had a problem with what political professionals would call message discipline;" "Clinton's answers didn't make news." Asking insipid rhetoricals like 'I wonder why people think that Donald Trump is a viable candidate?'
Piss-poor, weak excuse for actual journalism. Infuriating.
posted by rp at 6:25 AM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

This was tentatively established a few threads back; the dominant hypothesis was that there may exist a reality-making typewriter which is being passed around Metafilter but no one knows they had it until afterward

The apocalypse will be brought about by writers too twee to use a damn word processor
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:26 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Inside Bill Clinton’s nearly $18 million job as ‘honorary chancellor’ of a for-profit college

Clinton’s contract with Laureate was approved by the State Department’s ethics office, in keeping with an Obama administration agreement with Hillary Clinton that gave the agency the right to review her husband’s outside work during her tenure. An ethics official wrote that he saw “no conflict of interest with Laureate or any of their partners,” according to a letter recently released by the conservative group Citizens United, which received it through a public-records request.
. . .
The company says its campuses have received about $1.4 million total over the years in grants from the State Department and its international aid arm, USAID. Of that amount, only $15,000 came while Clinton was secretary of state — student scholarships funded by USAID, Laureate said.

Publicly available grant records are not detailed enough to corroborate Laureate’s exact numbers. But the records do show that neither Laureate nor any of its campuses has received any individual grants larger than $25,000 from the State Department or USAID.
. . .
Unlike Trump University, Laureate’s campuses are fully accredited and offer graduating students valid diplomas. Compared with other universities, including its for-profit competitors, Laureate has a relatively low percentage of students who default on their loans, seen as an indicator of student financial success after graduation. A 2012 Senate report on for-profit colleges said that Laureate’s flagship U.S. school, Walden University, was the best of 30 campuses studied and that students there generally “fared well.”

TRUMP & CLINTON ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AMIRITE
posted by Anonymous at 6:29 AM on September 6, 2016

Piss-poor, weak excuse for actual journalism. Infuriating.

Yeah, I've spent a lot of time over the years defending NPR as middle-of-the-road-but-inoffensive and the home of at least some excellent journalism to my husband, who has a subscription to Jacobin so, you know. But I'm over that. I still listen to it in my car because the alternative is listening to my four-year-old talking about whether every crosswalk we see beeps or talks, but otherwise I'm all in on podcasts. I don't know what they're doing at NPR these days but it's not political journalism.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:30 AM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

The only bright sign in that 50% "honest and trustworthy" rating for Trump is that now is the best time in America's history to go into business selling snake oil, Florida off-shore real estate and shares in a Broadway musical about Hitler. No, wait, that last one would probably become a real hit...

"♫ Springtime for Donald and Ivanka ♬"
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I still listen to it in my car because the alternative is listening to my four-year-old talking about whether every crosswalk we see beeps or talks

I am insanely jealous that you have a toddler who thinks that a parent listening to something else is a reason to hold their tongue. Mine just repeats his observation till I acknowledge it.
posted by phearlez at 6:34 AM on September 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

A mid-'40s ceiling for Trump might not be enough to win but it's still a depressing indictment of American society.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:37 AM on September 6, 2016 [35 favorites]

Oh, they don't yell at you to shut off the radio so they can be heard?
posted by Artw at 6:37 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

the alternative is listening to my four-year-old talking about whether every crosswalk we see beeps or talks

You're just gonna leave us in suspense like that?

THE PEOPLE DEMAND TO KNOW.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

In other news, the Hamilton Thing in these political threads just got super relevant.
posted by dis_integration at 6:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

He tells me he "doesn't like the talking radio" but I tell him that the driver gets to pick what's on the radio so he's got about 12 more years before his opinion on this matters.

He talks incessantly at all other times but for whatever reason riding in the car gives him enough other stimulation that he can shut his mouth for 10 minutes at a time. Except that he is a pretty terrible back seat driver and has very strong opinions about driving routes like a London cabbie studying for the Knowledge. (As a Pittsburgher born and bread, he's already got "you can't get there from here, so turn right at the thing that used to be there 30 years ago but is no longer there" down pat.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

And I just noticed my 'nuke from orbit' link is completely wrong and from another comment. This is the right link. /Aliens
posted by chris24 at 6:49 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Piss-poor, weak excuse for actual journalism. Infuriating.

. . . is what I said about them in 2004. Sad to hear its the same.

For those infrequent thread visitors who wonder why we can't commiserate critically over Clinton's steadfast refusal to be perfect in politics and in life, I would ask that they please remain seated and calm for just over two months, and then we can get back to it. We are expecting a patch of turbulence from your-neighbors-are-literally-voting-for-a-fascist.

Thank you and we hope you enjoy the election. *biing*
posted by petebest at 6:49 AM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

A mid-'40s ceiling for Trump might not be enough to win but it's still a depressing indictment of American society.

What's worse is that this incompetent dumpster fire of a shitshow has no ground game, is barely spending money and he's still competitive in the horse race.
posted by Talez at 6:54 AM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

He's white, he's male and he's been on TV a lot. That's apparently all it takes.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:56 AM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

What's worse is that this incompetent dumpster fire of a shitshow has no ground game, is barely spending money and he's still competitive in the horse race.

Though a lot of people are expecting him to underperform the polls 2-3% because of this.
posted by chris24 at 6:59 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fox News Settles Gretchen Carlson's Harassment Suit For $20M

"The network is settling on Ailes' behalf, and the company is expected to offer an unprecedented public apology as part of the settlement."

"Two anonymous sources familiar with the discussions said settlement agreements have also been reached with two other women."

How Trump having a sexual predator as a key advisor is not bigger news is... well, I guess expected of our shitty press corps.
posted by chris24 at 7:03 AM on September 6, 2016 [32 favorites]

My almost five year old will cover her ears and shriek in agony when I play anything in the car besides "girl" songs (eg, Neko Case, Taylor Swift, CRJ, Loretta Lynn, Grimes, etc). She will tolerate instrumental music but cannot comprehend why I willingly listen to other people talk when you could instead be listening to sweet, sweet tunes.

The point, I guess, is that cars are for music and I've gained a little bit of sanity by escaping the election madness by shutting out the talking and just zoning out to the aforementioned tunes.
posted by Tevin at 7:04 AM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

And Trump also does not spend frugally because he uses RNC money to pay for his events months ago at his own properties. Easy mode in indeed. Can you imagine the wall to wall coverage if the Clintons did anything remotely similar to this? (Probably as similar as a fifth cousin in some swing state being paid for cupcakes for an event.)
posted by R343L at 7:04 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

TRUMP & CLINTON ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AMIRITE

as we've seen time and time again in MeFi threads, the for-profit college business is about extracting money from students through federal college loans.

whether it specifically violated state department ethics rules is immaterial compared to the fact that it's a grossly unethical business to take 18 mil from, especially for a former president. as the article indicates, one of the things Laureate was buying was the respectability of having Clinton on board, the respectability which is crucial to continue the stream of federal money.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:09 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Talk of changes afoot, of splits and mergers, coming out of Des Moines.
posted by Wordshore at 7:10 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's a Republican. There are a lot of people this election who're still just voting for Their Party over The Other Guys and who I think either aren't paying attention or are just so convinced The Other Guys are actually evil that the details of the current election don't even matter. Throw in the people who legit aren't smart enough to have any idea what goes into being president and who're just swayed by all this talk about America being great? The number of people who're actually really thinking about the issues and still deciding to vote for Trump doesn't need to be very high for Trump to be polling where he is. Racism, fearmongering, and poor analytical skills are things that have to be solved outside the campaign process. I think the media's portrayal of her is having a negative impact, but it's having an impact of a few percentage points either way. Even a completely accurate picture of Clinton versus Trump would be struggling to hit "landslide" numbers.
posted by Sequence at 7:11 AM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

Artw: Oh, they don't yell at you to shut off the radio so they can be heard?

soren_lorensen: He tells me he "doesn't like the talking radio" but I tell him that the driver gets to pick what's on the radio so he's got about 12 more years before his opinion on this matters.

Our backseat rider is more like Artw's. We try "driver's pick," but he's vocal and he'll request specific songs (we're spoiled with cars that read CD-Roms or USB drives with MP3s), or more often, demand we play the game he made up. I wonder if I can get him to sing along with Soft Cell's Entertain Me, because it would be so wonderfully fitting. And entertaining for me.

His younger brother doesn't say much, but is emphatic with "No," and strongly prefers music, specifically upbeat music, over news radio. Maybe they'd both like Soft Cell (with parental filtering for such hits as Sex Dwarf).
/parent filter
posted by filthy light thief at 7:31 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

as we've seen time and time again in MeFi threads, the for-profit college business is about extracting money from students through federal college loans.

I'm not happy about that involvement--but from the evidence cited Laureate is no FastTrain or Trump University.

You don't like for-profit colleges? I'm with you. But that article is clearly written in such a way as to imply shady going-ons and the leveraging Hillary Clinton's SoS position for money, and no evidence is given of that. There is no evidence of anything illegal, unlike Trump University or, say, Jane Sanders committing loan fraud and subsequently torpedoing Burlington College.

It's innuendo and bullshit.
posted by Anonymous at 7:32 AM on September 6, 2016

soren_lorensen: I don't know what they're doing at NPR these days but it's not political journalism.

At least they 1) have a diversity of voices, and 2) aren't non-stop [bad] political news, with more news and stories from other parts of the world than I see or hear elsewhere (in part because I don't actively seek out more diverse newsfeeds). For those two reasons, I'll keep (vocally, thought not monetarily) supporting NPR.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:33 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's innuendo and bullshit.

And it sells!
posted by filthy light thief at 7:34 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump is still saying all undocumented immigrants have to be deported, but maybe some of them can come back. It's the same vague bullshit.

Actually, some of it's not so much vague, as a strictly defined area of doubt and uncertainty: as befits the role of Stephen Miller in the Trump policy team, it's close to the Sessions policy of "enforce all the laws first and then we can talk about reform" which is really saying "let's kick the can on reform way down the road because we can always find more enforcing to be done."

To the group of people who have an ear for this -- which I'm sure includes most Hispanic Americans, along with anyone who has close experience of the immigration system -- this is not new stuff, other than the idea that enforcement may be put in the hands of the kind of local cops who make money from speed traps, and that the kind of bureaucratic screwups that often show up during the process might suddenly turn into a deportation nightmare.

The press conference angst is 100% journalist inside baseball

Process stories are lazy bullshit. American political journalists too often come across as experts in the rarified field of American political journalism and nothing else.
posted by holgate at 7:36 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

All this talk of toddler back seat driving is great prep for what the eventual Trump presidency would be like.
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]

Trump also wants to stop legal immigration. And with his references to Operation Wetback, presumably wants to get rid of American citizens with certain skin colors too.
posted by zutalors! at 7:38 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

David Cay Johnston gives an interesting talk promoting his new book, The Making of Donald Trump, on Slate's Live at Politics & Prose podcast the other day. He's followed Trump since his early casino days, and supposedly has done more investigative research on him than anybody. Makes me almost suspect this Trump fellow may not, in fact, be the ideal of all things Presidential we perceive him to be.
posted by Rykey at 7:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Current PEC numbers: Clinton 336, Trump 202 EV, Clinton Nov. win probability: random drift 88%, Bayesian 93%
posted by cashman at 7:48 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Guys I've mostly checked out of the political threads but I wanted to stop by and say I fully support the taco trucks and when do we get them?
posted by Fleebnork at 8:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

All this talk of toddler back seat driving is great prep for what the eventual Trump presidency would be like.

You wish. It'll be more like Duarte's vulgar posturing.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:16 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

A Trump Who's Been Normalized by The Media Could Still Win This Race
posted by tonycpsu at 8:17 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

So America's voters are rewarding Trump for (by his own declaration) NEVER using email. Well, we get everything we need from Twitter, right?

Trump has never had a thought in his head more complex than 140 characters.
posted by JackFlash at 8:17 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

as we've seen time and time again in MeFi threads, the for-profit college business is about extracting money from students through federal college loans.

It's more accurate to say the for-profit college business is rife with corruption, but there's a range here and it's actually not too hard to filter out the total scams. It's just that corrupt congress critters have refused to do so. If we actually graded schools on retention rates and graduation rates we'd cut off huge swathes of the scammers and better protect students.

Aside from that actually-measuring thing rather than just tarring everyone with the same brush, Laureate gets over 80% of its revenue from out of the US ventures, so clearly federal student loans aren't actually what they're about.
posted by phearlez at 8:17 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump has never had a thought in his head more complex than 140 characters.

There's only one character in Donald Trump's thoughts: Donald Trump.
posted by dersins at 8:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

In for-profit college news: ITT Technical Institute is shutting down, like, as we speak.
posted by box at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

I don't know what they're doing at NPR these days but it's not political journalism.

I think the media as a whole are refusing to go deeper, but NPR stand out as failures because this feels like it is squarely in their wheelhouse but for some reason they won't touch it... Clinton is a woman seeking power, so she started out guilty and is being required to disprove every negative they can throw at her. Meanwhile Trump is every shitty boss's son who gets the job you're more qualified for because he thinks he deserves it, and fuck you for asking why. That's the media dynamic here. Original sin vs prodigal son. We want to make examples of women but want to offer men forgiveness. The Republican vs. Democrat stuff exists on the surface, but sinner vs grinner is the animus, what makes criticizing Clinton compelling but calling out Trump on his lies boring. That feels like total NPR-bait. Meta-analysis. Have they gone there yet?
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:27 AM on September 6, 2016 [42 favorites]

And Greenwald has crawled up his own ass again regarding the pushback on media reporting on the Clinton Foundation.

No, people aren't trying to delegitimize all negative reporting on her. They would just like the media to be more honest.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:31 AM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

That prominent journalists are overwhelmingly opposed to Donald Trump is barely debatable; their collective contempt for him is essentially out in the open

Is that where it is? Because it's not in the papers or on screen.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:39 AM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

There are a lot of people this election who're still just voting for Their Party over The Other Guys and who I think either aren't paying attention or are just so convinced The Other Guys are actually evil that the details of the current election don't even matter.

Oh god, this. I had an incredibly "fun" conversation over labor day with older relatives who agreed during the primary that Trump is a total dumpster fire of a human being, but now that it's Trump versus a dreaded CLINTON they've totally backpedaled -- because THE CLINTONS are just so corrupt and THEY'VE KILLED PEOPLE and [insert breathless description with incredible levels of detail of every crackpot right-wing conspiracy theory about the Clintons for the last 25 years] and OMG MONICA and OMG THAT AP STORY and also Trump is really reaching out to minority communities now and you can't fault him for not being a politician and he's totally growing and changing and and and and ... .

Literally the only thing keeping me from disowning them was that we live in Massachusetts, which is never going to go Trump anyways.
posted by tocts at 8:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

That prominent journalists are overwhelmingly opposed to Donald Trump is barely debatable; their collective contempt for him is essentially out in the open

Sure, in the sense of "Step right up, folks! Come see the terrible man! Tune in at six to hear the terrible things he said today".
But they still want the race to be close because that draws the crowds in the first place.
posted by rocket88 at 8:47 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's just absurd to suggest that this high-ranking government official who is a lawyer and somehow had the presence of mind to have all the emails checked by a team of lawyers before handing them over, as she was taking up the office of SoS really simply missed the significance of having those records under her and her team's complete control, rather than in the hands of a neutral government archivist and available to any elected official with sufficient authority.

The FOIA has never worked the way you imagine since its beginning 1966. Working documents are not kept in the hands of a "neutral government archivist available to anyone elected official with sufficient authority." Every individual working in the government is responsible for preserving their own records. There is no policeman watching what people do. The system depends on the honesty of its workers to preserve the required records. That is the way it has always worked and that is the way it is now. You may prefer a different system but that would require new legislation.

The FOIA started before there were electronic records. Each person had lots of paper passing over their desk each day. They were required to submit xerox copies of work-related documents to the archives and trash or shred the non-work related ones. It is done by each individual on their own initiative. There is no big brother looking over their shoulder because that wouldn't even be practical with millions of documents each year. People take (unclassified) documents home with them in their briefcases. They may do work in their home offices on weekends. The only requirement is that they eventually make copies of work-related documents and send them to be archived.

The same rules were later applied to electronic records and email. You can take your documents home. You can use your personal email for work. The only requirement is that you eventually turn over copies of your work-related emails to the archives. From the beginning of email in government, people have commonly used personal email accounts for work. This is approved by the rules. Maybe you would like different rules, but that isn't the case now.

Clinton complied with all of the rules as they now exist, so what is your complaint? That there should be different rules? That isn't Clinton's problem. That's your problem.
posted by JackFlash at 8:50 AM on September 6, 2016 [68 favorites]

Chris Wallace has already thrown one debate, and it should disqualify him from moderating any future debates.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:56 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy cow you guys are still on the emails?

If we can't be done with it when we've exhausted more facts about it than most people know about the entire election, how can we expect the media to? Can everyone just stop? It adds nothing to the threads at this point except length and noise.
posted by chonus at 9:04 AM on September 6, 2016 [30 favorites]

A reminder that Trump is not that far outside others in the Republican party: Arizona GOP Releases ‘Wanted’ Poster With Bullet Holes Around Democratic Candidate’s Face. Also Ann Kirkpatrick is polling equal with McCain, in case you missed it.
posted by R343L at 9:07 AM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]

I took a bit of a break from political news over the weekend, and oi, it's really hitting me just how mentally exhausting the last 14 months of (often irresponsible) election coverage have been.

Rather sick-making that somewhere between 1/3rd and 2/5ths of the population want to be ruled by a walking hate machine. Our solution this year will be of the 14th, 15th, and 19th amendment variety.

<3 to everyone.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:14 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Dallas Morning News declines to endorse GOP nominee for first time since 1964
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:18 AM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

Our solution this year will be of the 14th, 15th, and 19th amendment variety

you forgot the 21st amendment
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:19 AM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

So, because I'm a sick, sick human being, I've been going back and listening to old episodes of Keepin It 1600 (I only just started listening to it a few weeks ago and in my defense I'm a completeist). Today I listened to the very first one, from months ago and oh my god, they completely predicted everything that is happening right now. Like, uncannily. The only whiff was that Trump's single-word nickname for Hillary would be blatantly misogynist (he seems to save the misogynist epithets for Mika, apparently). Everything else about how the media is dealing with this? Scarily correct.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:20 AM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

That prominent journalists are overwhelmingly opposed to Donald Trump is barely debatable; their collective contempt for him is essentially out in the open
Is that where it is? Because it's not in the papers or on screen.

I can see this and being part of the issue. It's an overcompensation factor, in that yes they do despise him but their jobs say they should be 'objective' so in trying to do that they lose perspective. I can also see the fact that there is just SO much horrible with Trump that it's an almost 'where do you start?" and how do you prioritize what 'bad' you spend time on? I can also see an issue in the the timing of just how fast his crap comes out. Something happens, you say hey I'm going to do some more in depth work on that and by the time you get something solid Trump is already onto 'piece of crap 3x forward'. It's hard to keep up with.
posted by Jalliah at 9:20 AM on September 6, 2016

I've been wondering why FBI Director James Comey would go out to say she was "Extremely careless". (*cue Wikipedia music*)

[emphasis added]
In 1996, Comey acted as deputy special counsel to the Senate Whitewater Committee.[10]
. . . his confirmation {by Gee Dubz} as Deputy Attorney General on December 11, 2003.[12] Among his first tasks was to take over the investigation into President Bill Clinton's controversial pardon of Marc Rich.[10]

. . In February 2003, Comey led the prosecution of Martha Stewart who was considered for the charges of securities fraud, obstruction of justice, and lying to an FBI agent

. . In early January 2006, . . Comey, who was Acting Attorney General during the March 2004 hospitalization of John Ashcroft, refused to certify the legality of central aspects of the NSA program. . .

{In 2005} Senior Vice President for Lockheed Martin, the U.S. Department of Defense's largest defense contractor.[28]

. . He was also appointed to the board of directors of the London-based financial institution HSBC Holdings,[32]

"Dubz" Bush put him on the short list to replace Souter. He signed an amicus brief to support same-sex marriage.

. . . Comey keeps on his desk a copy of the FBI request to wiretap Martin Luther King, Jr., "as a reminder of the bureau's capacity to do wrong."[62]

Hm. Land of contrasts?
posted by petebest at 9:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

The only whiff was that Trump's single-word nickname for Hillary would be blatantly misogynist (he seems to save the misogynist epithets for Mika, apparently).

We haven't had a debate yet. I can easily see him debuting an ugly nickname or two then, when he's on a nationwide stage.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:23 AM on September 6, 2016

That all sounds suspiciously vague. What are you precise complaints? What rules did she ignore. What rules was she unaware of?

Alright, so now that I'm at a computer, the blow-by-blow (with cites)

First: (top of page 2) appears to contradict the frequent claims that "nothing was classified at the time, it was all classified after the fact." 81 email chains is not, in my eyes, a nothingburger.

US Intelligence Community (USIC) agencies determined that 81 email chains, which FBI investigation determined were transmitted and stored on Clinton's UNCLASSIFIED personal server systems, contained classified information ranging from the CONFIDENTIAL to TOP SECRET/SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM levels at the time they were sent between 2009-2013. USIC determined that 68 of these e-mail chains remain classified.

Page 8 goes into the fact that Clinton used personal email for official business (which we all know but just citing anyway)- that's a huge deal for me, because it's an unsecured email being used for work that should go through secure channels.

Page 9 talks about the destruction of devices - contrary to popular belief, smashing devices with a hammer is not an approved method of destruction for devices that may have contained even information designated for official use only, and also, it goes counter to FOIA. What about BBMs? What about other non-email records? If she's using the devices for State work, then the whole thing becomes protected.

Page 10 - Clinton breaks the rules of her organization, the rules that as head of the organization, she is supposed to be at the very least familiar with, and moreover, exemplify. (There's also a bit about how one of her subordinates discouraged staffers from raising complaints about her use of personal email, but I didn't include it because it could have been self-initiated)

A May 25, 2016 report issued by the State Office of Inspector General (OIG) stated that, during Clinton's tenure as Secretary of State, the State Foreign Affairs Manual (FAM) required day-to-day operations at State be conducted using an authorized information system. The OIG stated it found "no evidence" that Clinton sought approval to conduct State business via her personal email account or private servers, despite her obligation to do so.

Further on Page 10 - Clinton says that "it was common knowledge at State that she had a private e-mail address because it was displayed to anyone with whom she exchanged emails" However, FBI indicates that the majority of State employees were unaware this was private, unsecured email, and that the email system was not set up to display actual email addresses (which is, admittedly, its own issue)
posted by corb at 9:23 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

FiveThirtyEight: An Assessment, from electoral-vote.com. Scathing.
posted by OmieWise at 9:24 AM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

EMAILS
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:26 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's an overcompensation factor, in that yes they do despise him but their jobs say they should be 'objective' so in trying to do that they lose perspective.

I think honestly it's not that different from the dialogue we get from people here: "Oh yeah sure, Trump is awful, but there's no point in regurgitating that again. You know what's REALLY interesting? LET'S TALK AGAIN ABOUT EMAILS AND CORRUPTION AND CLINTON FOUNDATION."

You know there's more than one way to do voter supression, and one of them is a constant drumbeat of "Corruption Corruption Corruption." I'm sure the same refrain of "I'm a Clinton supporter site, but let's talk about her lies and corruption" is going on in pretty much every other social media site. I sure noticed it in ontd-political.
posted by happyroach at 9:29 AM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

We've got to call a moratorium on email-related comments, or every one of these threads for the next two months is going to be unreadable.

Well, more unreadable.
posted by yhbc at 9:30 AM on September 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

As WaPo's Greg Sargent notes, CNN tells us in advance that the bar will be dropped to floor for Drumpf during debates:

Great.
posted by holborne at 9:34 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

"...contained classified information ranging from the CONFIDENTIAL to TOP SECRET/SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAM levels at the time they were sent ..."

But does that mean they were marked as classified? Or that they were not marked but it was later determined that they contained classified information? The sentence construction doesn't make that clear.

If she's using the devices for State work, then the whole thing becomes protected.

Is that right? If so I'm surprised that wasn't raised by the report. I'd be interested to see the regulation on that.
posted by schoolgirl report at 9:34 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Artw: All this talk of toddler back seat driving is great prep for what the eventual Trump presidency would be like.

Except we'll be the toddlers, trying to be heard from the back while some madman takes us wherever he wants, with no regard for how much we ask, plead, beg and demand ~~ice cream~~ that he not do whatever terrible thing he's currently doing.

schadenfrau: Chris Wallace has already thrown one debate, and it should disqualify him from moderating any future debates.

But that's the beauty of having 3 debates - balance of journalistic powers, right? Right?
posted by filthy light thief at 9:35 AM on September 6, 2016

We've got to call a moratorium on email-related comments, or every one of these threads for the next two months is going to be unreadable.

Start an email list for people who want to talk about it.
posted by pracowity at 9:40 AM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

The thing that's been getting me about the email story lately is that it's the perfect encapsulation of the generic Hillary Clinton narrative. It deals with second guessing means and methods rather than outcomes. It's literary criticism which focuses on the author's handwriting rather than the actual story of the book. It's taken the at least somewhat objective question of whether she's done actual good and substituted it for the entirely subjective matter of a moral judgment on a complex technical matter full of convenient rhetorical rabbit holes. In the sense of all of this artifice and false construction it's an ideal 21st century American political story, it's the product of a twisted form of natural selection whose generations are represented by memes whose ancestry traces back to Thomas Nast.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:46 AM on September 6, 2016 [33 favorites]

People are making a lot of Page 11, where it notes that Clinton responded to Powell that she knew her personal devices were still subject to FOIA - but failing to tie that to her devices getting smashed?

Page 12 - she kept her phone inside the SCIF - this is enormously crazy to me, you're supposed to leave it well outside for MANY reasons. Abedin says she left the SCIF to check the emails, but there's serious reasons for not bringing an outside mobile device inside a SCIF and it's not just "because you might check it."

Page 13 - State installed secure computers in the SCIF in Clinton's home, her aides say personal computers were brought there as well (aaaagh), Clinton says there were no computers there - which is bizarre! Such an easily checkable lie! Also, the SCIF door wasn't always locked and (presumably uncleared) personal aides had access.

Page 14 - One of her aides, whose name is redacted, had a clearance, but it was deactivated when he left the Reserves, and he continued to receive classified information from State staff asking him to print things for Clinton.

FBI investigation determined that hundreds of emails classified CONFIDENTIAL during the State FOIA process were sent or received by Clinton while she was OCONUS (p15)

This is kind of a big deal, it's one of the reasons you're supposed to do business within SCIFs or hold off on it while OCONUS - because unsecured devices can be compromised.

OH GOD THIS WHOLE REPORT GIVES ME THE SCREAMING CRAZIES. Page 16 - Samuelson, in determining which emails of Clinton's were work related, just looked at the to, from, and subject header, rather than the body of the email.

I have to pause this or I will go stark raving insane, but it seems pretty clear - 1/4 of the way into the report - that neither Clinton or any of her aides took the security of classified and other information seriously. This may be because they weren't trained in a security culture, and nobody wanted to tell the boss she needed to get INFOSEC training. But any number of these would have been a Very Big Deal if a low-grade intelligence professional were caught with them.
posted by corb at 9:47 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Vox: What a liberal sociologist learned from spending five years in Trump’s America
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:50 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

holborne: CNN tells us in advance that the bar will be dropped to floor for Drumpf during debates

Donald Trump is aiming to pull off one of the greatest political comebacks in history.

The Republican nominee is rebounding from a summer of repeated stumbles that threatened to undermine his candidacy, underscoring his ability to claw his way back and stay competitive despite controversies that would sink any other politician.

Ooh, political fan-fiction, I love this shit!

Trump and Hillary Clinton enter the critical post-Labor Day phase of the campaign in a dead heat. A CNN/ORC national poll released Tuesday finds Trump ahead of Clinton by two points -- 45% to 43% -- among likely voters. The race is also tight among registered voters, where Clinton has a three point advantage. Both findings are within the margin of error.
The narrowing of the race is a remarkable feat for Trump, who was down 10 points a month ago in CNN's Poll of Polls.

So, you're comparing one poll versus a collection of polls? Yeah, that's how you build a solid fictional foundation. Let's look at the CNN election page: Poll of Polls currently reads 42% to 37%, in favor of Hillary. CNN/ORC is ... 45% to 37%? Wait, where did Donnie's 43% come from? Oh, fiction? OK, let's read on.

But if Trump can spend the next 63 days shining a relentless and unforgiving spotlight on Clinton's vulnerabilities and avoid more self-inflicted wounds, there could be a path -- however narrow -- for him to reach the White House.

"Can he fundamentally alter the focus of this election right now — which is on him?" asked Bill Lacy, a GOP veteran who ran presidential campaigns for Bob Dole and Fred Thompson. "He needs to make this election about Secretary Clinton."

Oh, we're safe!

For his part, Trump needs to do more than simply disqualify Clinton. He must show he's ready to lead the nation.

To mount an authentic comeback, Trump must finally forge an emotional connection with voters outside his natural base, who have yet to embrace his vision of a nation under siege from terror and crime.

Yeah, everything's clear. Thanks!

I really look forward to part 2, where they outline how Hillary can win. They already said in this piece that "Trump has fewer routes than Clinton to the 270 electoral votes needed to win the presidency," and cited a source in the Clinton campaign:

"He would have to do things in the last eight weeks that he appears to have been incapable of doing in the last 16 months," said Clinton's chief strategist Joel Benenson, citing Trump's need to build a ground game, court swing voters and improve his appeal to suburban women.

A lot of bluster, very little content that indicates if Donnie could actually change and maintain that change more than 4 hours. "Hey, he looked presidential in Mexico! He kept his pants on! How adult of him! Oh, but then he shat on the Mexican flag on stage in Phoenix, and his fan base went nuts, winning over no new supporters." [Not quite real, but a crass summary of reality]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:51 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yea I'm going to have to step away from this thread too, where every request to dial back the repetitive and pointless email discussion only brings out more granular page by page commentary of the FBI report that's been discussed here at length.

Process over outcomes indeed.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:51 AM on September 6, 2016 [38 favorites]

Follow-up: CNN tells us in advance that the bar will be dropped to floor for Drumpf during debates is a misleading summary of that article. The article is titled How Donald Trump could win, and will be followed up by an article on how Hillary could win. [True]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:52 AM on September 6, 2016

I have to pause this or I will go stark raving insane

Please do. The email discussion is going nowhere, and has been for weeks.
posted by chonus at 9:53 AM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Hokay, so by popular demand, I'm gonna ask that we set the email discussion aside for now. Who knows, maybe future events will yield new stuff to discuss on this, but at this point we've spent a whole whole lot of time on it, and it seems like it's just annoying nearly everybody.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:53 AM on September 6, 2016 [94 favorites]

Back to phone banking after being on vacation. I can't believe how nice people are- the worst thing that's happened so far is hang-ups. Come on, universe, is that all you got?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:53 AM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

> FiveThirtyEight: An Assessment, from electoral-vote.com. Scathing.

I haven't really followed many of the non-political 538 pieces but have mostly enjoyed their election coverage this season. I enjoy their podcasts, too.

All that to say I am a fan and regular reader but this article seems quite accurate. Hopefully Silver takes notice.
posted by Tevin at 9:54 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I agree with everything, except his dismissal of the "tweener" articles. Those are just the right size and it's still so nice to data in political commentary. But the wunderkind stuff is spot on.
posted by corb at 9:59 AM on September 6, 2016

Back to phone banking after being on vacation. I can't believe how nice people are- the worst thing that's happened so far is hang-ups. Come on, universe, is that all you got?

You could even just assume that the hang-ups are awkward people like me who may very well support the heck out of your candidate but don't feel like talking about it/donating again right now/know that the faster I get off the phone with you, the faster you can get on to your next contact. The longest I've stayed on the phone with someone this entire election season was a Pat Toomey (R) push-poll which was a) hilarious and b) the longer I kept the caller on the phone, the fewer people they'd be able to contact during their shift with that baloney.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:05 AM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Immigration By The Numbers | Morning Joe | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:05 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do you count it as a hang-up if someone says something first? I'm not going to stop responding to unsolicited calls with "no thank you, please put me onyourdonotcalllistthanks*CLICK*" but I do wonder how it's perceived.

Please feel free not to point out to me that politicalls don't have to follow do not call requests, I'm well aware (though I disagree with the distinction) but it's just my muscle memory at this point.
posted by phearlez at 10:18 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ooh, tomorrow night's phone banking event I signed up for was billed as having a "special guest": I just got the text announcing that it's Anne Holton (Tim Kaine's wife). I am excite!
posted by Superplin at 10:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

Politico: Five reasons Hillary could be blowing it

Or, why Clinton fans might want to invest in mattress pads.

The URL for the story contains the phrase "is Hillary Clinton Losing". [clickbait, opinion]
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

>Do you count it as a hang-up if someone says something first?

In my experience the calls I have made for Hillary have been for the sake of gathering data, especially since this first phase has been harvesting volunteers. So if we get someone who hangs up it's marked as "refused" and they're able to calibrate that data point away from "potential volunteer." Hope that answers the question.
posted by Tevin at 10:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I actually kind of prefer the hang-ups to having to continue to interact with someone.
posted by XMLicious at 10:22 AM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

What's worse is that this incompetent dumpster fire of a shitshow has no ground game, is barely spending money and he's still competitive in the horse race.

Media interests (TV, print, Internet) have a lot vested in keeping the presidential election as close as possible for as long as possible. It's not going to be close.

We're talking 1980. Or worse.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:24 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

> "I agree with everything, except his dismissal of the 'tweener' articles."

Yeah, that was annoying. It read very, "these articles don't appeal to the particular tastes of certain specific groups of people, therefore they are bad."
posted by kyrademon at 10:26 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

TPM: Trump Dings Clinton For Not Having ‘A Presidential Look’
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:30 AM on September 6, 2016

TPM: Dallas Morning News Rips Trump: He 'Does Not Deserve Your Vote'
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Can someone explain the CNN/ORC poll for me? They polled 886 registered voters, 32% R and 28% D, who broke 44% for Clinton and 41% for Trump, and party identification was about 90% reliable in predicting voter intentions.

But in 2012 voter registration was 35% D and 28% R. So if you were adjusting the respondents to more closely match overall voter registration, that should increase Clinton's lead. In order to skew the results enough to give Trump the lead in this poll, you'd have to define "likely voter" to heavily favour Republicans, and I'd think by a significant amount.

Is a reasonable likely voter adjustment able to account for that big a difference?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:35 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

That prominent journalists are overwhelmingly opposed to Donald Trump is barely debatable; their collective contempt for him is essentially out in the open

Even if this were true (which it's not, as others have pointed out), being opposed to a demagogue with fundamentally un-American values is hardly a failure of journalism.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:37 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Something that should be discussed more -- what kind of personnel would Donald Trump fill the government with?

Presidents need to install at least, what, 10,000 managers in real positions of power. Maybe 100,000. For most presidents this is not a problem, because there are Republican and Democratic networks that hang around Washington waiting their turn. But huge chunks of the Republican crew refuse to work for the Donald. And his vindictiveness will rule out another large chunk that he feels has slighted him.

Already, we've seen complete amateur hour breakdowns from his (skeleton crew) campaign staff and surrogates like his officially designated African American and Latino representatives. What kind of dregs is he going to scrape up if he needs thousands and thousands of people to put in key positions?

Ronald Reagan was enough of an outsider than even he had this problem -- remember people like James Watt (who thought Jesus was returning soon, so we were morally wrong NOT to use up the resources), Rita Lavelle (EPA, convicted of perjury) and Anne Gorsuch Burford (avoided indictment, but first agency head ever convicted of contempt of congress, and had to resign)?
posted by msalt at 10:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [30 favorites]

Something that should be discussed more -- what kind of personnel would Donald Trump fill the government with?

The best personnel. You wouldn't believe the personnel he's going to choose. They're going to be tremendous.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:46 AM on September 6, 2016 [17 favorites]

I still think this video of Maddow explaining some facets of Trump's rise, is informative. I added some information about the content, since it's a 16-minute video. It aired late at night shortly after Trump gave his immigration speech in Arizona, and then they reaired it the next night as Steve Kornaki sat in for Rachel. It's worth watching.

Donald Trump Nativist Speech Follows Dark US Pattern | Rachel Maddow

0:00 Talks about Lincoln. What party was he, before he became a republican?
1:45 Talks about which other presidents belonged to that party, and served as presidents under that party.
2:00 That party falls apart.
2:30 If you have 2 parties and one party falls apart, it affects the 2-party system.
3:00 What was left over turned nasty, and somewhat violent. Secret societies sprang up.
3:30 The common theme was that these parties were anti-Catholics, anti-immigrant.
4:00 As that movement spread nation-wide, it morphed, and also became anti-Chinese.
5:00 Nativism. Hating immigrants, blaming immigrants. The movement became known as the Know-Nothings.
5:30 When asked about their party, they would say "I know nothing".
6:00 The growth of the Know-Nothings was in the vacuum of a second political party.
6:45 The Know-Nothings collapse.
8:00 We know from history, in times of stress, this strain of anti-immigrant scapegoating arises
8:45-12:35 [Donald Trump Arizona immigration speech excerpts]
12:40 Contrasting the inscription on the Statue of Liberty with those excerpts.
13:30 Addressing Trump's "this is the ONLY conversation (immigration) we should be having at this time".
14:15 Revisiting what happens when the 2-party system breaks from time to time.
15:30 Trump has emerged as the latest face of anti-immigration sentiment, because the Republican party is weak.
posted by cashman at 10:48 AM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

Justinian, this may cheer you: Texas now a tossup as Trump loses support there.

A new poll by The Washington Post and online polling site SurveyMonkey suggests there may be another battleground for the already embattled Republican presidential nominee: Texas.

The poll, which sampled voters in all 50 states, showed opponent Hillary Clinton at 46 percent and Trump at 45 percent in the Lone Star State, suggesting Texas’ rapidly shifting demographics might tilt the historically red state more purple in the upcoming election.

I didn't expect this.
posted by stolyarova at 10:49 AM on September 6, 2016 [24 favorites]

Clinton giving a press conference that they whined for, and CNN doesn't even carry it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:51 AM on September 6, 2016 [39 favorites]

oneswellfoop: "Focus your mindspace on the qualities of the person you reluctantly support. It also prepares you better for when you get reluctantly drawn into political discussions (heaven forbid), in real life and in internet places like HERE."

As these threads have gone on, people have gotten more and more resistant to any criticism of Clinton. I'm not a member of Clinton's campaign. I have no obligation to stay on message.

Reasons I'm not looking forward to a Clinton presidency that have nothing to do with her emails:
- She voted for the war.
- Super predators. (Yes, she apologized for the word. That she thinks it was only about the word and not about the racist mass incarceration policy that it represented is, indeed, part of the problem.)
- Her vocal support for encryption backdoors.
- She's a war hawk. (To people who respond to every criticism of Clinton asking for "evidence," what evidence could you possibly need? The entirety of the primary debates?)

I want people to be talking about these things right now, because they matter. And at the same time, I also want her to win by a historically unprecedented landslide. It's okay to want both of those things.
posted by roll truck roll at 10:54 AM on September 6, 2016 [15 favorites]

Was curious why this appeared in my YouTube suggestions. The first one appears to answer it.

5 American Words That Are Rude In Britain
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:54 AM on September 6, 2016

Clinton giving a press conference that they whined for, and CNN doesn't even carry it.

And MSNBC showed it after the fact (there wasn't anything occurring that should have pre-empted it), then cut it off before it ended.
posted by cashman at 10:54 AM on September 6, 2016

PAY ATTENTION TO US!

Note "even the liberal" Ari Melber of MSNBC trying to litigate whether this counted as a "press conference."

At this point, she's going to have to wear a flight suit and land on an aircraft carrier full of journalists.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:56 AM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

Preferably on top of them.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:56 AM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

So if you were adjusting the respondents to more closely match overall voter registration

They may well have been just not doing that. That's fine. It's totally normal and respectable, especially with a phone-based survey that gets closer to simple random sampling out of the population of phone numbers, to just call a random bunch of registered voters* and let the partisan demographics fall where they may. On average, you'll end up with a partisan mix that's close to the actual partisan mix in the population, but not necessarily in every individual poll. That's fine, and is consistent with the way sampling works and with how people should think about poll results.

This is part of why:

Don't stress too much over any individual poll. Follow the poll averages and aggregators, and especially the poll aggregators mostly using state-poll data.

*Or just call a random bunch of phone numbers and ask them whether they're registered voters, possibly validating this after the interview.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:58 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

where can one even find a journalist in this day and age
posted by entropicamericana at 10:58 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

roll truck roll: I want people to be talking about these things right now, because they matter. And at the same time, I also want her to win by a historically unprecedented landslide. It's okay to want both of those things.

Yes, you can want them both, but the National Ignorance Threat (NIT) level is at red, so I think you kind of have to decide which you want more, and drop the other one until after the election.

(Yes, it sucks. It is also, unfortunately, The Way We Live Now.)
posted by chonus at 10:59 AM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]

Ugh. The worst thing of that WaPo article is that they linked to Brietbart and InfoWars.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:02 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Vox: What a liberal sociologist learned from spending five years in Trump’s America

I think that Oliver Willis' response illustrates why the argument isn't really that compelling:

in other words they feel like black, latino, asian and other minorities have felt FOREVER. boo fucking hoo.

I get that these groups are victims as well. But they've also been on the other side of the equation. And what people are telling them is that it doesn't matter that it's been how they are for generations - the other groups aren't going to tolerate bigotry anymore.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:03 AM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

The problem with all the "valid complaints" about her is that they appear to come from a world of pure black and white thinking. There's no room for nuance in a worldview that labels Hillary Clinton a warhawk without considering any of the facts of the world we currently live in. It's disappointing to see otherwise intelligent people braying that shit all over the place.
posted by palomar at 11:11 AM on September 6, 2016 [60 favorites]

Oh, and this part of that sociologist's article drives me nuts:

I came to realize that there is a whole sector of society in which the privilege of whiteness and maleness didn’t really trickle down. And I think we have grown highly insensitive to that fact.

No, we have not "grown highly insensitive" to that "fact", because it's not a fact. The reality was that all those individuals did benefit from their race and gender - it's just that it happens in such a quiet way that they don't realize it.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:16 AM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

mrgrimm: Media interests (TV, print, Internet) have a lot vested in keeping the presidential election as close as possible for as long as possible. It's not going to be close.

That link is from Democratic strategist Doug Sosnik, and is dated March 22, 2016. He has good points:

the primary factors that have shaped the outcome of presidential election in eight of the last nine presidential elections: the state of the economy, the incumbent president’s job approval and how and when the nomination fight is settled. Right now, none of these factors is working in the Republicans’ favor.

But at that point, Donny wasn't even the official GOP candidate.

Regardless of how you do the math, the current environment paints a picture of a Republican Party at the verge of implosion during the most critical period in the presidential campaign. Assuming little changes, years from now people will look back at the decisive nine-day period in mid-October last fall when the stage was set for the 2016 elections.

Emphasis mine - the thing that changed was how the media portrayed the race, and stacked the deck against Hillary in terms of coverage. Donny dropped the bar so low for himself, with the outstanding help from the media despite the fact that he as had his supporters chanting "lock them up," that it's painted as a close race now.

A lot has changed, and the positive changes for Hillary were by her and her campaign's doing. Her convention bump has helped her and it has largely lasted, while Donny had a little bump that he squandered.

I think the debates will help Hillary. She's been grilled, pressured, and called any terrible thing you can think of, but she persists and survives. Donnie flips out at a slight and berates whoever he sees as an attacker in the most basic, crass way possible. He can rile up his base, but as was said at the coverage of the Phoenix debacle where he flipped from "we didn't talk about the wall" to "Mexico will pay for it, 100%" in a matter of hours, that's primary period rabble rousing, not general election base-building.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:16 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I came to realize that there is a whole sector of society in which the privilege of whiteness and maleness didn’t really trickle down.

Yeah, that's because they confuse "privilege" with "wealth and power," and they're not the same things.
posted by chonus at 11:20 AM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

palomar: It's disappointing to see otherwise intelligent people braying that shit all over the place.

And worse, no thought of what kind of "warhawk" Donnie is. You're not comparing Hillary to some ideal person in an ideal world, you're comparing her to the Orange Fuhrer. But that's easy to focus on Hillary, because Donny has no coherent plan on military spending, at least as of Aug 5, 2016 (Politico article).

You can't focus on smoke and mirrors, and that's by design.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [27 favorites]

The reality was that all those individuals did benefit from their race and gender - it's just that it happens in such a quiet way that they don't realize it.

Exactly. The problem with the phrase "XXX privilege" is that people equate it with something huge. They see it as being akin to getting a winning lottery ticket or becoming a major movie star, rather than as a banal (but incredibly powerful) exclusion from suffering from structural racism or sexism. It's basically the same argument nerdy white boys make in a different register about not being privileged.
posted by OmieWise at 11:21 AM on September 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

Epistemic closure is bad for Democrats just like it's bad for Republicans. You can't adapt to changing circumstances if you react to everything that happens with the same prefabricated slogans (sexism, Clinton Rules, etc), or if you refuse to discuss issues you find uncomfortable or displeasing (emails, the Foundation, the wars, etc). I've read every word of these threads and the refusal to take seriously the idea that Clinton and her campaign have some serious credibility problems is pretty worrying, both in terms of actually getting the left coalition over the finish line this November as well as in terms of what things are going to be like once she's president.
posted by gerryblog at 11:22 AM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Do we need to call him "Donnie" "Donny" etc? No one calls him that and I find the constant nicknaming distracting and irritating.
posted by zutalors! at 11:22 AM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

I think the debates will help Hillary.

I'm not so sure. I think God and Sonny Jesus could come and put their arms around Hillary at the first debate, and the people who don't intend to vote for her today will be no more likely to do so the next morning.

I just want to see how the percentages play out, 'cause I believe that will be the United States' new asshole quotient.
posted by Mooski at 11:24 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

if you refuse to discuss

You mean, refuse to continue to rehash, over and over and over and over and over and over.
posted by cashman at 11:27 AM on September 6, 2016 [43 favorites]

I want people to be talking about these things right now, because they matter.

A lot of the things you listed have been discussed at length throughout the previous threads stretching all the way back to the conventions. Try going back and rereading some of those threads because I promise there won't be any novel argument put forth now and we will only drive the mods nuts if we rehash every possible issue every single time someone decides they want to regrind a particular axe.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:29 AM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]

palomar: "The problem with all the "valid complaints" about her is that they appear to come from a world of pure black and white thinking.

I think people being afraid of talking about them is a sign of black-and-white thinking.

There's no room for nuance in a worldview that labels Hillary Clinton a warhawk without considering any of the facts of the world we currently live in.

I'm really not sure how to respond to that. I made it pretty obvious I'm voting for her. If I had no capacity for nuance, I'd be writing in Lessig or something.

In the past 15 years, the people who use "the facts of the world we currently live in" to justify war have had a pretty bad track record.
posted by roll truck roll at 11:29 AM on September 6, 2016

Seriously, what is the point of discussing something when we've gone over and over and over and over and over and over and over it, and the other side of the discussion basically amounts to BUT EMAILS!!!! or BUT COLLUSION!!!! and has no actual substance?
posted by palomar at 11:30 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I think we have a responsibility to take questions about Hillary Clinton's credibility seriously... But part of taking a question seriously is acknowledging when it has been answered. Clinton has been investigated in unprecedented depth by both the government and thr press corps, and had written multiple books explaining her actions and her thinking. I believe the questions regarding her credibility have been answered.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:31 AM on September 6, 2016 [37 favorites]

Somebody should come up with a list of what topics of discussion are permissible and which topics lead to Objectively-Pro-~~Terrorist~~-Trump crimethink

y'know, until it's safe to talk again
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:31 AM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Individual national polls will occasionally show Trump with a narrow lead as long as the election remains in the 7-8 point Hillary lead. Probably best not to freak out unless there is a clear trend where the election is closer. Also remember the national popular vote doesn't really matter; what matters is the stability of Clinton's lead in the electoral college where her lead remains strong..
posted by humanfont at 11:31 AM on September 6, 2016

C'est la D.C.: "Try going back and rereading some of those threads"

I have been following them, mostly quietly, and mostly enjoying them. But it's easy to see the change in tone in response to anyone saying anything bad about Clinton. It's mostly just characterized as "EMAILS!"
posted by roll truck roll at 11:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

What some people see as fear of discussion is actually exhaustion at the tedium of having the exact same discussion over and over with no change. I've stopped trying to have the discussions you seem to want, roll truck roll, because I can no longer deal with people refusing to actually listen in favor of bleating out their favored talking points to prove how much smarter they are for not being sheeple.
posted by palomar at 11:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [45 favorites]

I've read every word of these threads and the refusal to take seriously the idea that Clinton and her campaign have some serious credibility problems is pretty worrying, both in terms of actually getting the left coalition over the finish line this November as well as in terms of what things are going to be like once she's president.

Bring me evidence, and I'll take the idea seriously.

Bring me innuendo, and I'll laugh in your face.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:32 AM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

I believe the questions regarding her credibility have been answered.

I agree, but acknowledging that means unpacking why they can't let it go.
posted by Mooski at 11:33 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

gerryblog: I've read every word of these threads and the refusal to take seriously the idea that Clinton and her campaign have some serious credibility problems is pretty worrying, both in terms of actually getting the left coalition over the finish line this November as well as in terms of what things are going to be like once she's president.

I don't think there are any blind Clinton voters here (maybe one or two, but nowhere near even a percent that counts). We are aware. It's just that we're in an vastly unprecedented situation where it is IMPERATIVE that the Republican candidate does not take office. It may seem like that gets said every election year (c.f. George W. Bush, but also c.f. how we were kinda TOTALLY RIGHT about that), but Holy Jesus if you (general you) can't see the forest for the trees on this one, I don't know what to tell you. Clinton has Issues. She has Subscriptions, even. But she is not going to leave the country a flaming wreckage, and Trump will. His election brings global carnage the likes of which most of us currently living have never seen. This is a binary election. It's 1 or 0. Choose.
posted by chonus at 11:34 AM on September 6, 2016 [45 favorites]

issues you find uncomfortable or displeasing

I'm just going to lay right out here on the table that I am not uncomfortable or displeased, I am COMPLETELY FUCKING TERRIFIED TO MY VERY CORE. Like, actually losing-sleep-at-night, I-have-gained-5-pounds-from-stress-eating, sick-feeling-in-the-pit-of-my-stomach screaming fantods. There's a time for beard-stroking and digging up old issues of Foreign Policy to debate the finer points of multilateral intervention in Syria, but I literally cannot do that at this time. I am operating straight from my brain stem. I fully admit to not being rational here because I truly believe we're looking at an existential threat to our nation, if not an actual nuclear war in our future.

So yeah, uncomfortable and displeased doesn't really cover it.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:35 AM on September 6, 2016 [54 favorites]

Fred Clark - A red traffic light: This election is about one idea:

The point here, though, is that not every question is equally important. Some carry more weight than others. Priority means more than percentages. Some questions can be tallied among the general mass of questions that produce a final score. But other questions are fundamentally important and the wrong answer on those questions should be, all by themselves, disqualifying.

This is a problem with our politics, and with the way we talk about and think about our politics. We see this in those little online quizzes that attempt to tell you which candidate for office is “best” for you. They go by percentages, but have no way of accounting for priorities. Thus, for example, it may ask for your opinions about 50 different topics and then tell you, based on your responses, that the candidate for the Hey Everybody, Let’s Nuke Canada Party is your ideal match — agreeing with you on 98 percent of all topics, everything except his signature plan to nuke Canada.

That result is misleading or, at best, meaningless, because it doesn’t account for the fact that this guy is the nothing-matters-except-nuking-Canada guy. If you agree with him about everything else, but disagree with him about that, then you don’t really agree with him at all.

posted by palindromic at 11:36 AM on September 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

I'm really not sure how to respond to that. I made it pretty obvious I'm voting for her.

The argument isn't "are you voting for her", it's "is she a warhawk?" And frankly, I don't think the evidence is there to make that assertion. Yes, she's more ready to use force, but I think that's due to the conflation of a few factors. More to the point, I don't see her looking to pursue the use of force directly, but to use it as part of the "velvet fist".
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:38 AM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

We were at the point of exhaustion with these arguments by, like, March. Trust me, people who want to keep having the "warhawk or MEGA-warhawk?" arguments, you are not bringing the light of critical inquiry to closed minds at this late date. btdt
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:43 AM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

Please stop pretending that hawkishness is a single-spectrum thing where "We should take over countries to steal their oil" (Trump) is the same thing as "We should use military force, as a last resort, to stop humanitarian disasters" (Clinton)
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:45 AM on September 6, 2016 [60 favorites]

It's been a slow news cycle, obviously. These threads have been entertaining when there have been speeches to deconstruct, the trip to mexico, the coughing fit (i jest) and more newsworthy events.
I'm glad the mods have put the brakes on the email re-hash, but we're still basically just chatting while we wait for the next big thing.
It's a long way til november folks.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:45 AM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

zutalors!: Do we need to call him "Donnie" "Donny" etc? No one calls him that and I find the constant nicknaming distracting and irritating.

It's my personal, somewhat childish jab at a childish man.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:46 AM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

These threads have been entertaining when there have been speeches to deconstruct, the trip to mexico, the coughing fit (i jest) and more newsworthy events.

MORE NEWSWORTHY EVENTS LIKE PILLOWGHAZI AMIRITE
posted by dersins at 11:47 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

You're not comparing Hillary to some ideal person in an ideal world, you're comparing her to the Orange Fuhrer

QFT. I'm answering all criticism (valid and invalid, both exist) now with, "And that's worse than Trump how?" Because that's what it is, folks. This or that. Choose.
posted by ctmf at 11:47 AM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

oneswellfoop: So what was I saying? Compared to his "TV popularity", he shouldn't be polling over 20%. Maybe if he were running against Tyrion Lannister or Rick Grimes...

The Apprentice ran for 14 seasons. That's 7 seasons of The Apprentice and 7 of Celebrity Apprentice. The show spawned three spinoffs, including a UK version, an Apprentice show run by Martha Stewart and a dating game show hosted by Donald Trump called The Ultimate Merger. It was an unqualified success by anyone's standards.

Trump himself, his family, his properties and retail businesses have been the beneficiary of a relentlessly positive 12-year promotional campaign on national television. His brand and everything it touches has benefited. His family has benefited. People who went on the show often did too.

The show made Trump a household name, established his businessman bona fides, and was an hour-long, 185 episodes-over-15-years video advertisement for Everything Trump™. Every single episode, Trump would talk about how successful he was. The show constantly went on location at Trump properties, promoting a lavish lifestyle and associating it with him. Every single Trump venture, from Trump University to Trump Water to Trump Steaks got extensive airtime on a major network in primetime. As you mentioned earlier, NBC promoted the show by making Trump out to be a genius business dealmaker. In fact, NBC helped create the Donald Trump we know today.

"TV popularity" translates to real world popularity, especially for reality tv stars, because those heavily-edited shows are designed to make people think a fake narrative is real life. People who barely pay attention to the campaigns but know him from the TV show will remember a lot of things they liked. He doesn't take shit from people, he seems uber competent and he's attacking all the things they loathe, like the government, politicians, Congress, the media, immigrants, minorities and poor people.

His poll numbers are high for a lot of reasons. But the show is a big reason many people think of him as successful. And possibly even Presidential.
posted by zarq at 11:48 AM on September 6, 2016 [38 favorites]

Do we need to call him "Donnie" "Donny" etc?

My SO offers, The Frito Bandito.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:50 AM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

The problem is when new information comes in, discussing it is sometimes treated as a "rehash", when it's new data on an old subject.
posted by corb at 11:51 AM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm answering all criticism

To be clear, non-mefi criticism, though I'm tiring of "same old" here as well.
posted by ctmf at 11:52 AM on September 6, 2016

The problem is when new information comes in, discussing it is sometimes treated as a "rehash", when it's new data on an old subject.

To borrow from ctmf: even if it is new data, that old subject makes her worse than Trump how?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:53 AM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

How seriously do people believe this?

Kayfabe level, for the most part. Hoping to persuade the persuadable and/or distract others.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:55 AM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

The thing about the issues with Clinton's credibility: Clinton has been pilloried for over 20 years, with people basically dedicating their lives to investigating and derailing hers. Much of what she's been accused of has been tissue-thin conspiracy based stuff for which there is no evidence AT ALL. These false and baseless attacks are then used as the "evidence" for further attacks. Afterall, there must be something going on, there have been all of these investigations. Add to that the obvious sexism inherent in the attacks, as well as people using facts that mean one thing in true context as if they were in another context (e.g., when things fall on a timeline, like B. Clinton's job), and it's a perfect recipe for not every being able to respond adequately. Indeed, that's the point. There is no proving a negative, and there is no possibility that anyone will take no for an answer. See the recent (re)discussion of an issue that had literally already been investigated and dismissed by the FBI.

Clinton has developed a secrecy problem, probably as a result of this. That problem may be worse than the disease it seeks to cure, in that it results in questionable decisions and the exercise of poor judgement, where secrecy is prized more than ethics. Both Clinton and her husband have sought to enrich themselves based on their political work. This is both very common, and very odious. But it is common, is pretty understandable given their circumstances (both their origins and their access to the superrich now that Bill has been President and Clinton a Senator), and, in this race, so much less than the literal scam that is Donald Trump, that harping on it seems strange.

As I've said before, there are real issue's with Clinton and her campaign. I say that as a wholehearted Clinton supporter. There are credibility issues that should be discussed. This is true not because Clinton has a particularly bad record (I would argue that she does not) but because she is a major party candidate for President of the United States. Politics at that level is a dirty business. That doesn't obviate the issues, but it's really important to put them in context. Why do you think so many first term Senators are starting to run for President? Because there is less to dig up on them, and less time for them to have had to decide how they needed to vote on a particular issue if they were going to preserve their Presidential ambitions. But given what we know to be the very real double, triple, quadruple standard applied to Clinton, I think discussions of her short comings and problems have to be carefully framed to have prima facie validity. Especially in the case where the arguments and inuendos are virtually indistinguishable, save for the absence of words like b* and c* in the descriptions, from those from the Right Wing.
posted by OmieWise at 11:55 AM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

Vox: This study shows American federalism is a total joke:

Wisconsin, Florida, Ohio, and Michigan have all voted Democratic in the past two presidential elections. But Republicans have complete control over their state legislatures and governorships, paving the way for them to enact far-reaching conservative policy agendas.

A new study takes a closer look at why. Professor Steven Rogers of Saint Louis University found that voters don’t make decisions about whether to reelect their state lawmakers because of their specific policies, campaign promises, voting records, or any of the other things you’d normally expect to be relevant to their position as local lawmakers.

That’s because the politics of statehouses turn out not to be local at all. Instead, Rogers finds there’s one major factor in deciding who controls the statehouse: the popularity of the American president.

This article touches on the lack of local political coverage in local news, a major source of irritation for me. My proposed solution is to have high school newspapers become online only, and have student reporters assigned to attend school board meetings, city council meetings, interview local political candidates, etc. This has the dual benefit of informing the community and educating students as to how political sausage is made, especially if it's the same student-reporter attending, for example, school board meetings all year.

Note: My school paper was garbage that I did not improve by submitting only sardonic leftist short fiction and reviews for arthouse movies and indie rock albums.
posted by palindromic at 11:58 AM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

Oops. A correction to my last comment... The Apprentice premiered in 2004. Trump's involvement with the show was terminated last year. So it ran for 11 years, not 15.
posted by zarq at 12:00 PM on September 6, 2016

But the show is a big reason many people think of him as successful. And possibly even Presidential.

I wonder if there is a way to counter this image among low information voters. Could you for example start an email chain letter with a clickbaity subject line and alarming but easily digestible talking points?
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 12:00 PM on September 6, 2016

It IS imperative that Trump not win this thing. I don't care if he's immediately strapped to a chair with a muzzle by his handlers and a puppet makes all his appearances. His mere candidacy has caused strife, an uptick in violence and world-wide bemusement, if not outright fear. If he is elected, the credibility (such as it currently is) of the US is utterly gone and we can add "tin-pot dictatorship" to our image along with naive, brash "ugly American" stereotypes we already enjoy. I see it as the WORLD against Trump; voters must save the ignorant or racist or "party-line" or what-have-you Trump voters from themselves.
posted by thebrokedown at 12:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

The conclusion that Hillary is a war hawk is only reached through examining a cherry picked set of facts and ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

Meanwhile Trump has stated that he wants to carpet bomb civilian areas where terrorists might live, resume water boarding and "way more severe interrogations" and murder the relatives of terrorists. Trump has gone around saying he was opposed to the Iraq war, but his interview transcripts say otherwise. Trump demands our NATO allies and Japan pay tribute or else. He wants to undo our deal with Iran. Just today he was boasting about rebuilding our military and getting tough. These are the words of a reckless war monger and hawk.

The fact that you want to raise and argue the issue of Clinton's alleged status as a war monger / hawk makes me wonder how you could reach this conclusion and what your motivations are.
posted by humanfont at 12:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [49 favorites]

"With flags," they said. Can you believe it? "You have to compile it with flags."

gcc -O3 -Wgold-fringe email.c -o email
posted by schmod at 12:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

I'm hoping this type of statement will help alienate from Trump some of the older white women who ordinarily vote Republican. TPM: Trump Remembers Anti-Feminist Activist Schlafly As ‘Champion For Women’
posted by palindromic at 12:13 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ugh. The worst thing of that WaPo article is that they linked to Brietbart and InfoWars.

I apologize for the time I gave them grief for quoting me without linking back (and for only identifying me as "a writer at a local blog" just to add insult to poor internet manners).
posted by phearlez at 12:13 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Both Clinton and her husband have sought to enrich themselves based on their political work. This is both very common, and very odious.

Except that they really haven't, besides banking on their name for honoraria. And if you're going to argue that is somehow odious, I'd daresay you've lost the plot.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:18 PM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm hoping this type of statement will help alienate from Trump some of the older white women who ordinarily vote Republican. TPM: Trump Remembers Anti-Feminist Activist Schlafly As ‘Champion For Women’

Older white women who ordinarily vote Republican prolly share the sentiment.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:25 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ray Walston, Luck Dragon: if you think it's possible that -- stay with me here -- talking about things is the first step to building a consensus to move candidates in a more progressive direction, candidates like Clinton (when has that ever happened, amirite), then that sort of discussion might be important.

Talking about these things to/with the candidate and her representatives, sure. Talking about them on an message board, not so much.

candidates like Clinton (when has that ever happened, amirite)

Worked okay with Obama and gay marriage. After the election, even!
posted by chonus at 12:27 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

One comment deleted. Some people want to talk Clinton criticism, some don't, that is okay. These threads will go a lot better if people don't get into drawing conclusions/making personal accusations about who's a bad person, who's a sheeple, who's secretly really trying to help evil, etc. Don't make me turn this thread around.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:28 PM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

she frequently talks about establishing safe zones in Syria,

Wait hang on, is this why people call her a war hawk?

Man, one thing these threads have clued me into is how apparently I am not the progressive I always thought I was back when I was marching in Pride parades and protesting the death penalty in the early 90s. Have... have I been kicked out of the secret leftist club when I wasn't looking? I think I probably have. I'm over 40 and the ideological bar you have to clear these days is too high for these old knees to make the jump.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:28 PM on September 6, 2016 [56 favorites]

If you think the Clintons are in politics to enrich themselves, you must think them to be incredibly stupid. Like, stupider than could be reasonably believed of two humans who can speak in complete sentences. For starters, they both left behind what would be been incredibly lucrative careers in high-powered law firms.

Today, Bill and Hillary Clinton can both command six-figure speaking fees for as many speeches as is practical for them to fly to. They can command seven-figure salaries at board positions. They could easily pull in tens of millions of dollars a year without stressing themselves too hard. Instead, one of them is running for president. Why? So she can cash in after 8 years in office in the hardest job in the world, for the sake of really raking in the corruption dollars with the last decade of her life? Does that make any sense at all?

These are two people who could have been partners at white-shoe law firms before they were 35. These are two people who have repeatedly turned down the opportunity to retire into a life of total luxury funded by being fawned on by rooms full of people paying them tens of thousands of dollars just to be near the hems of their garments. Instead, they're out on the campaign trail, again, getting raked over the coals for made-up nothingburger psuedoscandals. Enriching themselves, give me a break.
posted by 0xFCAF at 12:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [159 favorites]

It's true, I am the devil
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Tom Levenson at Balloon Juice on the Laureate University story:

Most important: it had nothing at all to do with Hillary Clinton and her State Department. Not one bit. It’s just a “look, Bill Clinton’s making too much money” story.

And this is what I find both telling (badly) in current campaign coverage, and revealing of the genuine and honest differences between reporters and their audiences in what each thinks of as excellent journalism.

I’ll say again: this is a J-school teachable example of meticulous reporting. With the one exception noted above — inadequately IDing Judicial Watch and their strongly partisan and long-standing campaign against the Clintons — this is exactly as one would wish, a detailed story in which the reporters make clear their evidence, enough so that the careful reader can in this case feel confident of the claims being presented as facts. I can see why reporters would recognize and value that professional accomplishment.

But as a reader, the story is so much of what I’ve hated this campaign season. It’s lede is innuendo: Big Dawg got a pile of money, and so there must be something wrong. Then we get 2,604 words that add up to…no scandal at all; really, nothing there….and a piece that ends, in what reads to me like classic DC pearl-clutching, “it does seem unseemly.”

IOW To me, this story really was a one liner: “There is no evidence….” Everything before and after that is a mass of suggestion and ultimately innocuous incidents presented as indicators of impropriety.

posted by palindromic at 12:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

Both Clinton and her husband have sought to enrich themselves based on their political work. This is both very common, and very odious.

My language was imprecise. That should read: "Both Clinton and her husband have used the fame and access (to rich people and companies) developed during their political careers as a means to enrich themselves. This is very common, many Generals, for instance, go on to highly paid jobs at defense contractors, and many politicians go on to jobs as lobbyists."

I don't think they've done anything illegal at all, I think they have done what the Power Elite (Mills) do. I don't like it when Generals do it, and I don't much like it when Clinton's do it, but that is a matter of personal politics, not law.
posted by OmieWise at 12:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

From the Vox article on social psychology of Trump supporters:

Then there were others that I felt who swallowed unpleasant news in a kind of quieter stoicism. It was almost like they were renouncing their right to a clean environment. One respondent told me: Pollution is the price we pay for capitalism. Sometimes people accepted loss as part of God’s plan.

Sadly, very sadly, this checks out.
posted by petebest at 12:33 PM on September 6, 2016

I dunno, safe zones in Syria sound like concentration camps no matter who says it.
posted by zutalors! at 12:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you think the Clintons are in politics to enrich themselves, you must think them to be incredibly stupid. Like, stupider than could be reasonably believed of two humans who can speak in complete sentences. For starters, they both left behind what would be been incredibly lucrative careers in high-powered law firms.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me, because I said no such thing and think it would be a weird representation from someone who in these threads has repeatedly said that he's a very strong Clinton supporter.

I said that having left politics, or in the interstices, they have sought to enrich themselves with their access and reputations.
posted by OmieWise at 12:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, one reason people might think Clinton is a hawk is because she frequently talks about establishing safe zones in Syria, something that would require US military assets to achieve, including operating those assets in close proximity with Russian/Assad-loyal forces. [...] talking about things is the first step to building a consensus to move candidates in a more progressive direction [...] Otherwise this thread is just "Ain't Hillary totes adorbs

So I think that is indeed an important and meaningful issue. But I don't think saying "Hillary is a war hawk" really furthers the discussion of the question whether we should establish safe zones in Syria or not. Instead of evaluating Hillary Clinton as a person on, like, a scale from 1 - 10, can we actually talk about those issues? Because there's very little point in evaluating her on some kind of absolute scale right now when we know the alternative is worse. The relative evaluation is the only one that matters to the decisions we individually and collectively face right now.

But I think there's a lot to be gained from talking about issues, like what if anything we should do about the situation in Syria, because these are knotty problems and the more people thinking and talking about them, the better the consensus we come to as a society about what should be done.

It is not at all obvious to me that only a war hawk would want to do something to stop the civil war in Syria, or that there are effective non-military ways to do that.

But I am pretty sympathetic to the position that military intervention often if not usually causes more harm than it prevents, so I would likely be sympathetic to a specific argument as to why we shouldn't intervene (or moral grounds or pragmatic ones? In the interests of Syrians or Americans?) or how we might intervene in non-military ways (economic sanctions? Economic aid? Military aid/arms supplies? Diplomatic sanctions? Espionage? Secret special ops missions? What specific non-military interventions could we consider if we believe that the Syrian civil war is a travesty which is killing and maiming children and endangering world peace, but don't want to send in troops?

That is a discussion that's a lot more substantive that either "Hillary is a war hawk" or "Hillary is totes adorbs" which I would very much welcome.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [17 favorites]

I heard some pretty persuasive reporting the other day that suggests that the various factors in the Syrian Civil War, when compared to other similar conflicts and their durations, add up to something that could go on for at least another decade if not longer. I'm all ears for any and all workable solutions, even military ones at this point.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Rehashing my old posts;

We're having dinner. The choice is chicken or steak, there are no other choices. Oh, but the chicken is contaminated and people are getting sick all around. You want to talk about whether the beef is grass fed, and will not stop talking about it. There are no other choices.

I honestly do not find your conversation as enlightening as you imagine. I will not have dinner with you any more.
posted by bongo_x at 12:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [96 favorites]

The Frito Bandito.

Frito Benito, obvs.
posted by stolyarova at 12:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

Metafilter: there is a Yoko Ono component that I did not care to explore
posted by DiscountDeity at 12:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

zutalors!: I dunno, safe zones in Syria sound like concentration camps no matter who says it.

That's a mind-bogglingly far leap to make, IMO.
posted by chonus at 12:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]

No, wait. Cheeto Benito.
posted by stolyarova at 12:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]

Frito Benito, obvs.

CHEETO Benito. He's much more Cheeto-colored than Frito-colored.

(Though one could argue for Dorito...)
posted by chonus at 12:43 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Jinx, Stoly!
posted by chonus at 12:43 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's a mind-bogglingly far leap to make, IMO.

how so? i feel like we've said that often in these threads when Trump says "safe zones." The way they would be organized and policed would put them in that category for sure.
posted by zutalors! at 12:44 PM on September 6, 2016

how so? i feel like we've said that often in these threads when Trump says "safe zones."

Consider each source. Context matters.
posted by chonus at 12:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

i think the practical effect would be the same, honestly, whether it's a Trump or Clinton safe zone.
posted by zutalors! at 12:48 PM on September 6, 2016

> Older white women who ordinarily vote Republican prolly share the sentiment.

The Republican-voting white women I know do so for a whole lot of reasons not related to female submission politics. I know at least two Republican women who are not voting for Trump (one is for Clinton, the other for Johnson), whose husbands definitely assume they are still aboard the Trump train. The Trump campaign's treatment of women is the first reason both of those women gave for not voting straight-ticket this November. Obviously anecdotes are only so informative, and they are not particularly unusual as female Republican voters in most respects - they're white, suburban, 50-something, mothers and grandmothers, voted for McCain and Romney - but talking up Schlafly as a champion for women cannot really be all that helpful to Trump's women voter outreach.

Heck, even women who advocate for the politics of female submission aren't Trump supporters, From the TPM article:

Some of Schlafly’s own children told the press that they disagreed with her support for Trump, and Eagle Forum’s president of 23 years, Cathie Adams, said that the group had “no respect for that man.”

posted by palindromic at 12:49 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

I dunno, safe zones in Syria sound like concentration camps no matter who says it. [...] i think the practical effect would be the same, honestly, whether it's a Trump or Clinton safe zone.

This argument needs some support. It's not at all self evident.

For one thing Nazi concentration camps were definitely not actually "safe"... right? They actively killed people in concentration camps? Are you suggesting that's what Hillary Clinton wants to do? Or are you thinking of "concentration camps" in a more generic sense that might include, say, the camps in which Japanese Americans were interned during WWII?

For another thing, Syrians are currently NOT safe in their homes, so it's very plausible to imagine that they will be SAFER elsewhere. Hence the overwhelming number of Syrian refugees flooding in neighboring countries and spilling over into Europe. Whereas German Jews (and American Japanese people) were relatively safe in their homes, and there was no reason to believe they would be safer in camps. They were not fleeing their homes. They wanted to stay in them.

For a third thing, has Clinton or anyone suggested transporting anyone involuntarily into these safe zones? Because I have yet to hear of a concentration camp occupied by people who voluntarily came and voluntarily stay. In fact, I would say that seems to be a defining feature of concentration camps -- people are brought there against their will.

Basically I've very confused. In what sense are the proposed "safe zones" at all similar to "concentration camps"?
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:55 PM on September 6, 2016 [22 favorites]

We're having dinner. The choice is chicken or steak, there are no other choices. Oh, but the chicken is contaminated and people are getting sick all around. You want to talk about whether the beef is grass fed, and will not stop talking about it. There are no other choices.

For me, it's kind of like I'm having dinner. There's perfectly acceptable chicken, but it's from a megafarm and although they follow all applicable laws, you think their farming and labor practices are ethically problematic. You think maybe it should be considered unethical to farm the way they farm, and that it's bad for farming as a whole, but that's how everyone else does it, so what are you gonna do? Then there's an overcooked steak hard as a rock that, paradoxically, is also contaminated with listeria, which gives it an orange hue. It got to market by bribing and intimidating food regulators, and you're not sure, it might actually be horse meat. It says Grown in the USA but when you peel that sticker off you see some Cyrillic.

There are no other choices. A lot of people say the chicken is pretty good and I should just go ahead and eat it. But they're pretty sure the steak will kill me. Some people think the chicken is the poison, even as they vomit up the steak and run a high fever. They're clearly insane.

I'd eat the chicken, but I'm a vegetarian.

There are no other choices.

I eat the chicken.
posted by dis_integration at 12:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

I have in the past said things like "Clinton is somewhat more hawkish than I would like," as a shorthand for "she has in the past advocated or accepted the use of military force in instances where I would prefer pacifism." I'm no longer using that kind of phrasing, as "hawkish" implies a sort of eagerness for war that I don't believe is reflected in Clinton's record. This doesn't mean I agree with her decisions now, nor will it stop me from criticizing similar decisions of hers in the future. But I believe her record shows that she's a political pragmatist who believes that the threat of, or less frequently the use of, military force can be a tool for protecting imperiled people throughout the world. Considering some of the worst humanitarian crises from the 90s (notably the Rwandan genocide and the civil war in Kosovo), her perspective is understandable.

Clinton isn't a war hawk. Neither is she a dove. The real world is complex, and effective leaders make hard decisions based on the realities on the ground, rather than ideologically pure worldviews. They don't always get it right, but it is still better than refusing to act, or refusing to recognize the messy facts of the world.

On the flip side, Trump's decision-making seems to be based neither or reality or ideological purity, but whatever kayfabe lets him keep playing the character of the Successful Powerful Man.
posted by biogeo at 12:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [43 favorites]

They actively killed people in concentration camps? Are you suggesting that's what Hillary Clinton wants to do?

FFS. Of course not.

Here is a good article about why safe zones are a bad idea.

If you think concentration camps only means Nazis I don't know what to say to that. But "safe zones" does imply internment, concentration, restriction of a serious kind.
posted by zutalors! at 1:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you think concentration camps only means Nazis I don't know what to say to that.

OnceUponATime was not the only person who made that connection. It's a term that many, many people associate primarily with the Nazi death camps of World War II.
posted by Etrigan at 1:03 PM on September 6, 2016 [22 favorites]

Perhaps for the sake of quickly and easily replying to rehashed issues related to the election, we can devise a system of standardized numbered replies. That way instead of lengthy repeats of rebuttals, we can all simply type things like:

In regards to emails, 2, 17 and 34.

It still save time and energy.

And then the newbie, frustrated at the confusing system, posted a number she knew would be unassigned: "38172!" And every Mefite in the thread favorited her comment. They'd never heard that point before!
posted by biogeo at 1:03 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

For one thing Nazi concentration camps were definitely not actually "safe"... right? They actively killed people in concentration camps? Are you suggesting that's what Hillary Clinton wants to do? Or are you thinking of "concentration camps" in a more generic sense that might include, say, the camps in which Japanese Americans were incarcerated during WWII?

The Nazi "concentration camps" you're talking about were extermination or death camps, which they are mostly called to avoid the confusion you identify. I don't know anyone who refers to Auschwitz, for instance, as anything other than a death camp or an extermination camp.

From Wikipedia: "Holocaust scholars draw a distinction between concentration camps (described in this article) and extermination camps, which were established by Nazi Germany for the industrial-scale mass murder of Jews in the ghettos and concentration camp populations."
posted by OmieWise at 1:04 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

OnceUponATime was not the only person who made that connection. It's a term that many, many people associate primarily with the Nazi death camps of World War II.

I also used it to refer to Trump's internment camps for illegal immigrants. Basically these safe zones, restriction/detainment areas that are proposed are potential human rights disasters, distaste for the word "concentration" even considered.
posted by zutalors! at 1:10 PM on September 6, 2016

OnceUponATime was not the only person who made that connection. It's a term that many, many people associate primarily with the Nazi death camps of World War II.

Yes, that's what I asked for clarification, because I figured that's how a lot of people would read it! But then I specifically asked if you, Zulators!, meant something like the Japanese internment camps instead, because I was genuinely trying to understand what you meant by "concentration camps." Can you give a historical example to illuminate the comparison you're trying to make?

Also, you didn't answer any of my other questions... and neither did the short article you linked. That article says that safe zones are not an effective solution to the refugee crisis (probably not, and I am in favor of the US accepting a lot more Syrian refugees). But it doesn't say in what way, if any, safe zones are like concentration camps! If they are actually safer than the rest of the country, and if people enter and remain in them voluntarily, then I can't see how they are like anything which has historically been called a concentration camp.

And there are reasons for wanting to establish them besides stemming the tide of refugees. That link talks about some of the possible ways a "safe zones" plan could go terribly wrong, but also suggests an entirely different set of motivations for them:

It would not have to focus on immediate regime change, but rather on mitigating the spiraling death toll, providing a safe space for moderate opposition to form governing structures and rebuild civil society, and allow for the introduction of humanitarian assistance. If properly enforced, refugees could resettle in these protected areas and begin the process of building an alternative to Mr. Assad, which can be leveraged in future negotiations to end the conflict.

posted by OnceUponATime at 1:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know anyone who refers to Auschwitz, for instance, as anything other than a death camp or an extermination camp.

Really? You don't know a single person who calls the Nazi death camps "concentration camps?"

Because, rightly or wrongly, like 90% of everybody[*] calls them concentration camps, and like 90% of everybody [**] thinks "Holocaust" when they hear "concentration camps."

[*] Note: Statistic made up but I mean come on.

[**] ibid.
posted by dersins at 1:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [45 favorites]

The Turkish military invaded Syria this last week and has started setting up a safe zone. The presidential level problem of the moment in Syria is how will the US keep Turkey and our SDF allies from going to war with each other. Who do you want working on this problem Trump or Clinton?
posted by humanfont at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

whether it's a Trump or Clinton safe zone.

The difference is the Clinton zone is keeping them safe while the Trump zone is keeping us safe from them.
posted by chris24 at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

OnceUponATime was not the only person who made that connection. It's a term that many, many people associate primarily with the Nazi death camps of World War II.

Yes, but that's obviously not the only definition, and it would be helpful if we don't all automatically jump to the worst historical example and assume that zutalors! is referring to extermination camps used for genocide. The US ran concentration camps where Japanese Americans, Italian Americans and German Americans were interred during WWII. Guantanamo prison can also be defined as a concentration camp. In recent years, concentration camps in Myanmar were used to mistreat Muslims through starvation and lack of medical treatment.
posted by zarq at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Silencing Dissent: Donald Trump Just Threw An Elderly Version Of Himself Out Of His Rally For Shouting ‘Beware Hubris!’ [fake]
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't know anyone who refers to Auschwitz, for instance, as anything other than a death camp or an extermination camp.

When I was going through school and discussing this period of history, we used "concentration camp" as a blanket term, including Auschwitz. The distinction between concentration camps and extermination camps is useful, but I never encountered it until I was an adult. Maybe this is something that varies depending on where you grow up.
posted by biogeo at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

I don't know anyone who refers to Auschwitz, for instance, as anything other than a death camp or an extermination camp.

From Wikipedia:

The title of that article is "Nazi concentration camps" and includes, as one of the subcategories, "Extermination camps", and specifically cites Auschwitz as a combined concentration and extermination camp.

There are plenty of people -- perhaps not Holocaust scholars -- who read "concentration camp" and think of Auschwitz and Dachau and Treblinka, and people who want to use the phrase should keep in mind that those people may read it that way and not act as though something is wrong with anyone who makes that conncetion.
posted by Etrigan at 1:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Clinton's not a hawk - she's an interventionist; a group that often makes common cause with hawks. Her quote on Gadaffi was, in so many words, "We came. We saw. He died." She believes in diplomatic intervention, with military intervention as one tool in that locker (all part of making the world a better place) and having been in the White House for both the Rwandan Genocide and the breakup of the Former Yugoslavia I have every sympathy with her approach.

She is also one of the very few people whose rationale for supporting the enabling motion for the Iraq War I actually believe. The motion she voted for wasn't a motion to go to war. It was a motion to empower the President for muscular sabre rattling and to go to war if diplomatic means failed. Hillary supported that because Hussein was a piece of work and diplomacy looking for a win-win but backed by a stout stick is her preference for foreign policy. She just assumed that the argument was being offered in good faith because it was what she would have done.

And on a hopefully unrelated subject I'd refer to the Nazi death camps as concentration camps.
posted by Francis at 1:13 PM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

The difference is the Clinton zone is keeping them safe while the Trump zone is keeping us safe from them.

I disagree, as the article I linked pointed out, i don't think we would have much luck keeping them safe.
posted by zutalors! at 1:13 PM on September 6, 2016

Yes, but that's obviously not the only definition, and it would be helpful if we don't all automatically jump to the worst historical example and assume that zutalors! is referring to extermination camps used for genocide. The US ran concentration camps where Japanese Americans, Italian Americans and German Americans were interred during WWII. Guantanamo prison can also be defined as a concentration camp. In recent years, concentration camps in Myanmar were used to mistreat Muslims through starvation and lack of medical treatment.

Thanks zarq.
posted by zutalors! at 1:14 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Every pro-Trump person I've talked with thinks the solution in Syria is to get out and not worry or care about what happens afterwards.
posted by charred husk at 1:14 PM on September 6, 2016

Really? You don't know a single person who calls the Nazi death camps "concentration camps?"

Sure. 100% of the people I talk about the Holocaust* with, and there are quite a few, know the difference. This isn't some weird boast, it's just a matter of who is in my family and social circle. I'm aware that people conflate the two, it just doesn't happen much among the people I know.

* Most call it the Shoah as well.
posted by OmieWise at 1:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

The US ran concentration camps where Japanese Americans, Italian Americans and German Americans were interred during WWII.

I think you mean "interned," unless this chapter of American history is considerably darker than I realized.
posted by biogeo at 1:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

Zulators, I usually agree with your comments here, which is what makes it more frustrating that you won't engage with my actual questions about the comparison you made.

it would be helpful if we don't all automatically jump to the worst historical example and assume that zutalors! is referring to extermination camps used for genocide.

I didn't assume. I asked, so that Zulators! could clarify and avoid this very derail. Oh well.

The US ran concentration camps where Japanese Americans, Italian Americans and German Americans were interned during WWII

Yes, I mentioned those in my comment and asked if perhaps that was the kind of thing which was meant instead.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:16 PM on September 6, 2016

>Do you count it as a hang-up if someone says something first?

If someone politely says they can't talk/don't want to talk/whatever, I mark them as "refused" and move along. If someone just hangs up without saying anything, I mark them as "not home" or maybe even "call back" because MWAH HAH HAH HAH THE POWER THE POWER.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

100% of the people I talk about networks with properly distinguish a "router" from a "modem", but that doesn't mean I assume that normal people saying they "have WiFi" mean that as having an 802.11x network as a separate question from whether or not that network can access the internet.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

>And Greenwald has crawled up his own ass again regarding the pushback on media reporting on the Clinton Foundation.

Scott Lemieux at Lawyers, Guns & Money - Did Democrats Unfairly “Demonize” Republicans Like John McCain and Mitt Romney? (SPOILER: No.):

[S]ince the views Glenn [Greenwald] expressed in the interview that Beth found objectionable aren’t particularly unusual, it’s worth explaining the two key problems with what he was arguing. Let’s go to the relevant quote:
I mean, the tactic of the Democratic Party in the last 25 years—they know that ever since they became the party of sort of corporatism and Wall Street, they don’t inspire anybody, so their tactic is to say the Republican Party is the epitome of evil.
Let’s stop here for a second, since this kind of ahistorical assertion — the Democratic Party used to be good but it’s now the party of evil neoliberalism — is a very common move. It is also a rather absurd fiction. Whatever its faults and limitations the Democratic Party of Obama/Pelosi/Reid is one of the most progressive iterations of the party’s nearly 190 year history. The overall trajectory of the party for the past decade is clearly to the left, not to the right. And this nostalgia for the mythical Golden Age of the Democratic Party is particularly strange coming from someone with Glenn’s priorities. What Democratic Party of the past are we supposed to be pining for — when LBJ and JFK were going to Vietnam and wiretapping Martin Luther King? When FDR was sending people of Japanese descent to concentration camps? When Truman was loading the Supreme Court with First Amendment-eviscerating poker buddies? When Jackson was cleansing Georgia of Native Americans? Help me out here. It’s true that the party has changed — in the New Deal era, the conservative Democrats that worked with Republicans to control Congress between 1938-1964 were more likely to be southern segregationists than Wall-Street influenced northerners. This was…not better.

As I’ve observed before, there is a reason for this imaginary history of the Democratic Party — namely, it allows people to avoid confrontation with the massive structural barriers that stand in the way of even left-liberal national coalitions: numerous veto points in a political system awash with money, electoral systems that privilege conservative rural areas, the preponderance of low-turnout midterm elections, etc. etc. The vast majority of major liberal federal legislation was passed in three brief periods under FDR, LBJ and Obama, and even in those cases it wasn’t so much that liberals controlled Congress as that there were political contexts that compelled moderate and conservative Democrats (and, in the case of LBJ, moderate and liberal Republicans) to go along with an unusually influential liberal minority. At some point, you have to consider the possibility that the Democratic Party isn’t suppressing a natural social democratic and staunchly civil libertarian governing majority.

posted by palindromic at 1:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [28 favorites]

And if a man answers and says "she's not interested" when I call to speak to a woman, I double mark it "Not Home."
posted by Tevin at 1:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [19 favorites]

I honestly don't understand your analogy.
posted by OmieWise at 1:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe let's allow the exact semantics of "concentration camp" to rest at this point.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [18 favorites]

Zulators, I usually agree with your comments here, which is what makes it more frustrating that you won't engage with my actual questions about the comparison you made.

I'm having a hard time engaging with them when they're like "wait are you saying you think Hillary Clinton wants to murder?"

I think zarq made my point pretty well. I didn't misspeak, I meant concentration camp. I think saying "oh internment is a better word" is a slippery slope. I think "safe zones" is a euphemism for a dangerous thing. I think it's scary when Trump mentions them, I can't pretend that's not true if Clinton does the same.
posted by zutalors! at 1:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think you mean "interned," unless this chapter of American history is considerably darker than I realized.

Ugh. I can't even blame autocorrect for that one. Yes, definitely "interned," not "interred."
posted by zarq at 1:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Individual national polls will occasionally show Trump with a narrow lead as long as the election remains in the 7-8 point Hillary lead.

While true, you have to go back 28 polls in the 4way matchup (and like 15 in the 2way) to find one giving Clinton an 8 point lead so I'm not sure what the basis for believing her lead might be that big could be. RCP has it at 2.4 in the 4way matchup, 3.3 in the 2way. CNN's poll of polls has it around 5 (they don't break it down further). Huffpost has it between 4 and 5 in both types of matchups.

It's clear that the race is somewhere in the 4 point range based on polling averages. And 4 points is still a lead. But the trendlines are clearly and obviously for Trump in the last two weeks.
posted by Justinian at 1:22 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

The difference is the Clinton zone is keeping them safe while the Trump zone is keeping us safe from them.

In practice this distinction might be hard to discern. Once you get people into a safe-zone, you have to provide them with meaningful on the groud security, which does not now exist among the US-friendly forces there. You also have to provide them with food, water, medical care, education for their children, and many other things.

I don't know what the solutions is. My foreign policy goals regarding Syria, so far as some D-bag on the internet can have foreign policy goals is to have less blown-up/drowned/shell-shocked Syrian kids. I don't think further US intervention in Syria is going to make it less of a hell hole.

If I were somebody, I guess first I'd be trying to figure out what carrot would make Putin cut Assad loose.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:22 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm glad OpinonWorks polled Maryland instead of, you know, North Carolina or Florida or Virginia or something. Had to make sure that 30 point lead was safe.
posted by Justinian at 1:25 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm having a hard time engaging with them when they're like "wait are you saying you think Hillary Clinton wants to murder?

Okay, so you answered that one, "No, that's not what I'm saying." Great! I didn't really think you did mean that, as I tried to make clear by suggesting some alternative interpretations. But that is the way it originally read to me!

But the questions I want you to engage with are these:

If they are actually safer than the rest of the country, and if people enter and remain in them voluntarily, then how are they like anything which has historically been called a concentration camp?
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:25 PM on September 6, 2016

I dunno, safe zones in Syria sound like concentration camps no matter who says it.

I think you are confusing "safe zones" with "refugee camps" which actually still are a far cry from concentration camps (speaking as someone who WORKS for a damn NGO with a Syrian program so I KNOW stuff).

"Safe Zones", as Hilary is most likely referring to them, probably mean "places in the country where there is not actual war going on 24/7", and if you think that sounds like a concentration camp, then... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [46 favorites]

Perhaps for the sake of quickly and easily replying to rehashed issues related to the election, we can devise a system of standardized numbered replies.

I don't want to get all metatalk here, but you know that nobody's gonna send you to a safe zone if you just don't respond when someone barfs up some crusty old rehash, right? Do your best Ray Walston voice and snarkily say asked and answered, councilor! to your screen and move on to the next comment. The people on the bus eventually stop scooting farther away as they get used to it and you don't clutter up the thread with what looks like bingo calls.
posted by phearlez at 1:27 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ugh. I can't even blame autocorrect for that one. Yes, definitely "interned," not "interred."

On the plus side, you gave me several minutes of interesting reflection on the various dimensions of semantic and moral distance indicated by such a small linguistic difference, so thanks.
posted by biogeo at 1:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

yeah, I'm not interested in 'takin all comers on this topic.

I'll just repeat what I said: I think "safe zones" is a euphemism for a dangerous thing. I think it's scary when Trump mentions them, I can't pretend that's not true if Clinton does the same.

I also think the human rights disasters mentioned in the Hill article I linked answer my concern.
posted by zutalors! at 1:31 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't want to get all metatalk here, but you know that nobody's gonna send you to a safe zone if you just don't respond when someone barfs up some crusty old rehash, right?

Coincidentally, this very quote would be coded "1" in my proposed system.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Argh! You sunk my battleship!
posted by biogeo at 1:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm curious though, are there any examples of a sort of 'safe haven' policy actually working at a national-civil-war level? I can't think of any but I can't actually think of any examples where it has actually been tried (as opposed to being a figleaf for outright internment / "neutralizing" of perceivedly-hostile local populations, cf. the Boer War, Japanese-American internment camps, etc).

I suppose refugee camps are this, in a way -- but I think the idea of 'safe zones' involves actually entering active war zones / contested territory to carve out demilitarized safe spaces that will be defended and policed by forces not party to the actual conflict.

The closest I can think of offhand is the no-fly zone in Iraqi Kurdistan, which I don't think has particularly been a failure, especially if measured against all the other stupid things the US has done in the region over the last 20+ years.

I think it could work? But it would have to be palatable to the Russians and there would have to be buy-in from the UN, Europe and the Arab world as well.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't know what the solutions is. My foreign policy goals regarding Syria, so far as some D-bag on the internet can have foreign policy goals is to have less blown-up/drowned/shell-shocked Syrian kids

See, to me, that's a cop out. Because I really see no reason to doubt that this is Hillary Clinton's goal as well. But she can't just shrug and say "I'm just some D-bag on the internet." She is in a position where she bears responsibility for the consequencies of inaction as well. If America could have stopped mounting total of blown-up/drowned/shell-shocked Syrian kids and didn't, if she personally could have stopped those numbers from continuing to rise, and didn't, she has to live with that.

So there is no point in saying "But Hillary Clinton's proposed solution is bad" without proposing some less bad option. Maybe this is a no win situation and all solutions (including inaction) are bad. Probably so. But "none of the above" isn't one of the choices. We as a country have to pick the least-bad option we can find. Pointing out the badness of all of them is just noise which doesn't help us make anything better.
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [34 favorites]

I'm glad OpinonWorks polled Maryland instead of, you know, North Carolina or Florida or Virginia or something. Had to make sure that 30 point lead was safe.

Hey, we elected Hogan. It was a valid concern.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:39 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm curious though, are there any examples of a sort of 'safe haven' policy actually working at a national-civil-war level?

What about when the U.N. went to guard Kosovo?
posted by wenestvedt at 1:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Farai Chideya at 538: This Election Is Testing The Republican Loyalties Of Military Voters:

Hale, now a philosophy major at the Miami University of Ohio, is one of 22 million veterans living in the United States, a powerful demographic group that trends Republican. There are also 1.3 million active-duty military members, 1.8 million dependents and nearly 741,000 U.S. civilian direct hires. Active-duty military service members are not allowed to speak on the record to the press about their political affiliations, but a July survey by Military Times (described as unscientific, since respondents opt in) found that they preferred Trump to Clinton 2 to 1, though the majority dislike both candidates (61 percent in Trump’s case and 82 percent in Clinton’s).

An NBC News/Survey Monkey poll in mid-August found that Trump was leading Clinton by 10 points — 51 to 41 percent — in military households, even after he angered many veterans groups by feuding with a Gold Star Muslim family that had lost a son in Iraq. (Blacks and Latinos in military households chose Clinton over Trump, though by lower margins than among the general population.) A Fox News poll in early August found Trump ahead of Clinton by 14 points in early August among veterans. But that lead is smaller than those of previous Republican candidates, possibly because of Trump’s remarks about the Gold Star family and his criticism of military interventions. At this point in the cycle, John McCain had a 22-point lead among veterans in 2008, and Mitt Romney was up 24 points in 2012.

The article looks at the military vote by age, state, which war (if any) a given voter was/is serving during, veterans v. active duty, etc.
posted by palindromic at 1:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Here's excerpts from HRC's last two gaggles (which is apparently what we're calling a presser on a plane.)

Hillary Clinton Suggests Russia Working To Elect Donald Trump | MSNBC
Hillary Clinton: Donald Trump 'Has Something To Hide' In Finances | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:55 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

What about when the U.N. went to guard Kosovo?

Wasn't that primarily NATO rather than the UN? NATO, of course, being the organization Donald Trump thinks we should charge for military protection. Highlighting another vast gulf between the points of difference under discussion here about the appropriate use of American military power to protect civilians, versus the Trumpian view of the U.S. military as a mercenary service which should be used to make a profit.
posted by biogeo at 1:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hah, in that first video, she quotes a bit of country wisdom, re: Trump and Russia: "you find a turtle on fencepost it didn't get there by accident". I'm charmed.
posted by dis_integration at 2:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

The article looks at the military vote by age, state, which war (if any) a given voter was/is serving during, veterans v. active duty, etc.

You'll also note that the dude that they profile has a Three Percenter flag hanging in his living room. So... maybe not exactly representative. I hope?
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

So there is no point in saying "But Hillary Clinton's proposed solution is bad" without proposing some less bad option.

I think any solution that doesn't involve fighter planes blowing shit up and the Marine Expeditionary Force herding refugees into some kind of mega-Domiz Camp is a less bad option
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm so far beyond my evens budget with this whole gaggle / press conference game the press is playing.

Trump is literally blacklisting media outlets who aren't demonstrating enough subservience to him, and their response is to... demand subservience from Hillary by dictating the terms of what constitutes an acceptable press conference? These cowards have no pride whatsoever in their professional integrity. It used to be said that one should never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel, but now, I guess you can just use your ability to get TV ratings to work the refs to the point where they're afraid to do their job.
posted by tonycpsu at 2:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [55 favorites]

I think any solution that doesn't involve fighter planes blowing shit up and the Marine Expeditionary Force herding refugees into some kind of mega-Domiz Camp is a less bad option

That really doesn't answer the question. "Don't blow shit up" is not a plan.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 2:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Or it got there like this.
posted by biogeo at 2:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

Or it thought a higher vantage point would let it spot the pyramids full of grain.

I like to loop things back to the earlier times in the election cycle...
posted by phearlez at 2:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Greg Nog: It's because of ray walston that I am now 100% pro-Trump. I'm wearing the shitty red hat and jacking off to a picture of Tsar Bomba

This is why we can't have nice things.
posted by fader at 2:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Safe havens already are going up in Syria. There are three. One under Assad/Russia in the west. Another under the FSA/Turkish military newly established west of the Euphrates river along the northern border with Turkey. Finally there is the Rojova regions in the Northwest and Northeast under the control of the the Kurds/SDF with support from US special forces and US air power. There are also refugee camps in Greece, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey.

Why are you arguing about hypothetical consequences of year old policy positions that are no longer relevant to the facts on the ground?

We saw Hillary Clinton's foreign policy work during her time as Secretary of State. She will build multi-lateral coalitions using the United Nations and NATO. She will likely seek to employ military force with the broad backing of the international community and after other options are exhausted.
posted by humanfont at 2:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]

My concern is using the safe zones as a campaign tactic against allowing increased immigration from the region.
posted by zutalors! at 2:23 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think any solution that doesn't involve fighter planes blowing shit up and the Marine Expeditionary Force herding refugees into some kind of mega-Domiz Camp is a less bad option

So whose jets are we talking about here? Just US jets? Is it OK for Russian jets to blow shit up and kill civilians en masse? How about Syrian jets? Is it OK for them to do the mass slaughter? If not, then what do you propose to do about it?

And if we're not herding civilians anywhere, them what should happen to them? Should they stay where they are and be targets? Should they starve to death in their besieged cities? No? Then what should happen to them?

Seriously, if you're going to criticize policy, don't give vague bullshit generalizations and loaded terms. Say exactly what you think policy should be, and be willing to have it critiqued.
posted by happyroach at 2:24 PM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

To paraphrase Leroy Carr...

Baby's in the cradle, brother's on the town
Sister's in the parlour, trying on a gown
Mama's in the kitchen, messing all around
And Turtle's on the fencepost, he won't come down
posted by y2karl at 2:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

[Trump and Clinton versions of safe zones would be hard to tell apart]

Once you get people into a safe-zone, you have to provide them with meaningful on the groud security

No, you don't. I mean, it might be your moral responsibility, but just ignoring your moral responsibilities is easy enough to do. One could just herd people into large "safe zones" and then let local bandits rape and murder at will, maintaining only enough security yourself to keep the refugees from leaving. I expect Trump's version would look more or less like that.

You also have to provide them with food, water, medical care, education for their children, and many other things.

Or, you could just not do those things and oh well some people die. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I expect Trump's version wouldn't make more than a token effort in those areas, would result in near-term mass starvation and death from infectious disease, and would boil down to "Hey, why don't y'all die somewhere unobserved?"
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

My concern is the Syrian refugees getting options that work for them. If that is emigration, then we should welcome them as asylum-seekers. If it is temporary relocation within Syria to safe zones, then we should do what we can to make sure those zones are truly safe. I can imagine many reasons why some refugees would prefer to remain in Syria if they can be guaranteed safety: moving across the world to a country where you don't speak the language, the culture is very different, and a vocal minority of people hate you for your race and religion is a pretty intimidating prospect. Better than being killed at home, but still not great. They might prefer to be able to establish protected communities within their home country, if possible. I don't know, and the only way to know is to ask the refugees what they want. Then we can craft a policy that attempts to achieve that while working within the political realities of nativism and anti-Muslim sentiment within the U.S. and Europe. "Safe zones" within Syria that refugees can escape to may be part of that solution, and I think equating it with forced relocation and concentration camps is unhelpful poisoning of the well.
posted by biogeo at 2:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

These threads have stopped being fun. I'm very disappointed in all of you.
posted by Scoop at 2:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

Or, you could just not do those things and oh well some people die. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I expect Trump's version wouldn't make more than a token effort in those areas, would result in near-term mass starvation and death from infectious disease, and would boil down to "Hey, why don't y'all die somewhere unobserved?"

Could we maybe possibly think of this as a ... wait for it... danger zone?
posted by dis_integration at 2:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

I expect Trump's version wouldn't make more than a token effort in those areas...

Exactly. Assuming that the intent of the camps wouldn't have an impact on the likelihood and severity of issues seems unrealistic.
posted by chris24 at 2:39 PM on September 6, 2016

Is Trump's rhetorical style an experiment in machine learning/predictive text gone horribly wrong? I mean, can anyone follow the throught process when he went off script at a town hall meeting this afternoon?

"You know, cyber is becoming so big today. It's becoming something that a number of years ago, a short number of years ago, wasn't even a word. Now the cyber is so big. You know you look at what they're doing with the Internet, how they're taking, recruiting people through the Internet. And part of it is the psychology because so many people think they're winning. And you know there's a whole big thing. Even today's psychology, where CNN came out with a big poll, their big poll came out today that Trump is winning. It's good psychology. It's good psychology."

It makes Ted "Series of Tubes" Stevens sound like William S. Gibson.
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:41 PM on September 6, 2016 [60 favorites]

Now The Cyber Is So Big, and Other Poems
posted by palomar at 2:42 PM on September 6, 2016 [50 favorites]

As the media continues to try to normalize Donald Trump, Donald Trump continues to normalize behavior like this:

Daily Beast reporter Olivia Nuzzi published a powerful piece Tuesday in which she mused on the current state of political conversation and media engagement in America, pegged to some online harassment she’s recently had to endure.Mike Krawitz, a Republican township committee candidate for West Deptford, New Jersey, drew major attention Monday after he posted a series of alarming comments towards Nuzzi on Facebook. Not the least significant of these remarks was “I. Hope. Somebody. Rapes. You. Today.” [...]

Nuzzi observed that the current social climate has made it so that “bullying has been rebranded as telling it like it is,” and that America has entered a “post-shame era” where political debates have been replaced by flame wars:
“Using obscene or threatening language is a point of pride, proof that you’re beholden to nothing but the truth. And anyone who can’t handle that? Well, they’re just a politically correct loser.

When a former reality TV star can become the Republican nominee while offending and belittling entire genders, races and religions, why wouldn’t a man seeking local office think that encouraging the rape of a woman he hates is OK?”

posted by tonycpsu at 2:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [72 favorites]

Those would make good song lyrics for a Vampire Weekend parody band
posted by dis_integration at 2:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thanks for the links, churchHatesTucker. They were kind of indicative of the campaign so far - clip #1 had 15 seconds of Hillary followed by 4 minutes of a trump talking head speaking nonsense, and clip #2 had Hillary talking convincingly but with the wonkiness level turned up to 10.

But it was great to see Hillary talk rather than T***p and I admit I'm not so jaded that I didn't feel a little surge of pride thinking "this woman is going to be our president".
posted by ianhattwick at 2:49 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

These threads have stopped being fun.

I had fun suggesting that Gamera uses his rocket limbs to get up onto fence posts.
posted by biogeo at 2:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

Dave Weigel blames voters for him not doing his job.

Your press corps, folks.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

That really doesn't answer the question. "Don't blow shit up" is not a plan.

How much shit do we have to blow up in order to have a plan

Let's blow up precisely that amount of shit and no more

That's my policy proposal

I'll have my staff fax you my White Paper
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

"You know, cyber is becoming so big today. It's becoming something that a number of years ago, a short number of years ago, wasn't even a word."

"Cybernetics" was coined in 1948.
posted by chonus at 2:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

68 is a short number if you write it really small like 68.
posted by biogeo at 2:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

This thread gets boring in the daytime when the takers make takes. Now it is dark, where the shakers make [fake]s.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:58 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

"You know, cyber is becoming so big today. It's becoming something that a number of years ago, a short number of years ago, wasn't even a word."

"Cybernetics" was coined in 1948.

if you read it carefully you'll see that cyber is becoming something that wasn't a word. What that something is he doesn't say. He has the best words and you don't just give away the best for free.
posted by dis_integration at 3:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Andrew Kaczynski: Ben Carson thinks Trump should apologize for being a birther [with video]

I've noticed that Ben Carson spends a lot of time saying Trump should apologize or Trump should have a softer approach. I don't think Ben is awake enough to understand who Trump actually is-- I believe he is campaigning for "Dream Trump."

I would love for Trump to get hammered on the Birther nonsense. It is a complete cop-out for him to tell the press now that he will not talk about it when a few years ago he wouldn't shut up about the topic. Own it, Trump. Show off your birther credentials!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

USA Freedom Girls Sue Trump Campaign for Stiffing Them

After nine months of haggling with Trump staffers, the group sued the campaign in a Sarasota County, Florida for as much as $15,000 in damages.

“This is not an opportunistic thing where we’re suing Donald Trump,” Popick said. “We’re not suing for emotional distress and all that other stuff that people do when the trump up—no pun intended—when they trump up a lawsuit. That’s not what this is. This is tangible dollars I spent under false pretenses.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]

Or it got there like this.

From that angle, does Gamera look like a pie tin to anyone else?

Bottom + Sides = pie tin.
Shell above = pie crust.

You know, with teeth, claws and rocket legs.
posted by zarq at 3:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm not going to click that i just want to bask in my imagination of what USA Freedom Girls is.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Special and better than all the other people who Trump has ripped off, apparently.
posted by Artw at 3:13 PM on September 6, 2016

Wow, I knew he was a racist, a con-man, and a creep, but I until now, I never doubted his commitment to Sparkle Motion.
posted by condour75 at 3:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [43 favorites]

Anyone still worried, in any way, about the emails should go watch Comey's testimony about them. He could not be more clear that he thinks there is nothing there. He could not be more clear that he wishes to God he had been able to recommend prosecution. He did as much damage to Clinton as he could, but even he thought there was no prosecuting.

That she didn't do anything wrong doesn't matter anymore. That's the simple, horrifying beauty of it. By this point it's no more than word association. EMAILS = BAD. Clinton? Emails? Clinton? Emails? Clinton? Emails? CLINTON = BAD. Same with BENGHAZI. All you have to do is mention it. And mention it. And mention it. And mention it.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 3:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [35 favorites]

Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine "wrote a book" (like hell they did, she's insanely busy and how long has he even been on the ticket? and I'm the sucker who just bought it on Amazon! Woot woot!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you had just told us from the beginning you were more interested in trolling than engaging in good-faith discussion

I don't think criticizing a plan or a policy requires a bullet-point counterproposal. In my experiences with online forums, insisting it does is more of an attempt to shut down discussion than to foster it.

Saying that an interventionist or violence-based Syrian policy is wrong-headed doesn't automatically mean my preferred policy would be nothing. That's a fine straw man. I greatly appreciate what John Kerry is doing now, in trying to forge multilateral solutions. My personal belief is that ending the violence in Syria isn't compatible with the stated goal of regime change by the United States government; some soft-landing for Assad has to be found, preferably with Russian cooperation. That's my point of view. But saying that making Syria more violent to create refugee camps isn't a solution (and it isn't) does not constitute apathy or pacifism. And the suggestion that it does warrants the response I provided.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I was just invited to win a signed copy by my good friends at HFA, tps.
posted by yhbc at 3:19 PM on September 6, 2016

WaPo: McCain portrays immigration record differently in English and Spanish

In English, McCain touts his work to reform the U.S. Border Patrol and to pass laws that “would address the crisis of unaccompanied children coming across Arizona’s border with Mexico.” But in Spanish, there’s no reference to border security or dealing with unaccompanied minors.

Instead, the Spanish site touts McCain as “the central figure who has brought together at the negotiating table Republicans and Democrats to work on immigration reform that is humane and sensible to the needs of the immigrant community. More recently, McCain led the efforts of the Group of Eight, which resulted in passage in the Senate of an historic immigration reform project. John McCain has always said that one of the most important parts of any legislative package of the broken immigration system should be to provide a pathway to citizenship for those who were brought as children by their parents, with no say in the matter.”

But in English, there’s no reference to McCain’s work on the Gang of Eight or his support for a pathway to citizenship for “dreamers,” the children of undocumented immigrants.

I'm not going to click that i just want to bask in my imagination of what USA Freedom Girls is.

You should really read the article. They are pre-teens who perform in sequined flag dresses who got dicked around by the badly-run Trump campaign. The low point was when they were invited to perform in Iowa so they flew there from Florida on their own dime but when they arrived they were told they would not be performing and -by the way- sit where we tell you to sit and don't talk to the press.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm not going to click that i just want to bask in my imagination of what USA Freedom Girls is.

Honestly, it's worse than anything you could imagine.
posted by zachlipton at 3:23 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm not going to click that i just want to bask in my imagination of what USA Freedom Girls is.

Then you're not going to learn to deal from strength

you'll get crushed every time
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ella Dawson, who wrote a wonderful article about a week ago (Hillary Clinton, The Alt-Right, And Me), just got the sweetest letter from Secretary Clinton herself. <3
posted by stolyarova at 3:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [43 favorites]

Oh FFS. Shane Goldmacher:

Update: Gingrich himself just starting coughing! Hannity offers water. Says doesn't compare to Clinton cough fit.

"Her coughs are much deeper than his, and last much longer," Gingrich says, comparing Hillary and Bill's coughing

"This coughing stuff, I hope she's all right," Newt Gingrich weighs in, adding, "it's a little disturbing."

It's not the coughing that is "a little disturbing." It's that the alt/right conspiracy shit about Hillary Clinton's coughing is now being trumpeted everywhere including the MSM. I swear that in 4 years we are going to look back and be shaking our heads over the deep analysis that went into Clinton's cough. Nice little show of faux sympathy though, Gingrich.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I totally shared the Freedom Girls thing to my people on Facebook. Donald Trump will financially screw over any- and everyone, even little kids who want to come out to support him.
posted by Sublimity at 3:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Great. Now I'm worried about her coughing during the debates. I doubt that it is anything more than a seasonal allergy but god forbid she show any weakness because the headlines will be about her coughing. I can see it now, CNN will have Wolf Blitzer interviewing a doctor after the debate and they will play and replay any coughing so they can analyze it and what it might "say" about the state of her general health.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

At this point, I really want the Clinton campaign to do a bait and switch. Set up a situation that looks mildly suspicious, let the media go after it like ravenous wolves and then after some breathless coverage, surprise! Just a feel good story that the media would have to report on. The person behind the monster mask was Tim Kaine holding a puppy.

10 people have probably already said it because my phone and eyeballs are vastly underperforming the thread, but nah... They'd just report on the suspicious part with the happy ending being a footnote until next summer.
posted by emptythought at 3:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

alt-right jackasses: "have you noticed Clinton keeps blinking? it means her eyes are falling out."

*Clinton blinks, as every human being does*

some of the news media: Do Clinton's Blink-Fits Mean Her Eyes Are Falling Out?
posted by defenestration at 3:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

Do we need to call him "Donnie" "Donny" etc?

My SO offers, The Frito Bandito.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker

HAHAHA!
You and your SO have a hilarious joke with the punchline "Frito Bandito."
HAHAHA! HILARIOUS.

For those of you young enough not to get the reference, the Frito Bandito, was a cartoon mascot for corn chips based on a "Mexican Bandit." A caricature of a criminal (obviously) with a big sombrero who spoke broken English in a heavy accent. It was so hilarious that due to pressure from Mexican-American groups the character was "retired" in the progressive and overly politically correct year of 1971.

So hilarious that people are still making lazy, stereotyping, racist jokes 45 years later. Don't worry your SO isn't the only one, I also found a link to someone on Stormfront who agrees with you guys.

HAHAHA!

tldr; That thing you said? It sounded racist.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:37 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think I've discovered Dinild Trimp's secret identity.
posted by stolyarova at 3:38 PM on September 6, 2016

I can't believe they're worrying about HRC's health when Trump hasn't even released the results of his Voight-Kampff Test.
posted by mmoncur at 3:39 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Daily Beast reporter Olivia Nuzzi published a powerful piece Tuesday in which she mused on the current state of political conversation and media engagement in America, pegged to some online harassment she’s recently had to endure. Mike Krawitz, a Republican township committee candidate for West Deptford, New Jersey, drew major attention Monday after he posted a series of alarming comments towards Nuzzi on Facebook. Not the least significant of these remarks was “I. Hope. Somebody. Rapes. You. Today.” [...]

Thankfully, this: New Jersey GOPer Quits Race After He Told Female Reporter He Hopes She Gets 'Raped'
posted by Mister Fabulous at 3:39 PM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

I can do the plays too:
Liberal: the media is writing nonsense stories!
Media: (writes a story about nonsense)
Liberal: arghhh!!! (Clicks on it 2000 times & posts it on Facebook with a mad sticker)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

"we're here with dr. sanjay gupta to get the scoop on hillary clinton's respiratory condition..."
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Press corps rolls orange to Clinton with a question inked on it: dinner with Trump or Putin? She circled Putin. [real]
posted by stolyarova at 3:45 PM on September 6, 2016 [15 favorites]

Go with the organ-grinder, not the monkey.
posted by Artw at 3:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

What, the orange-rolling thing is real? I'm going to have to re-evaluate the last couple of seasons of The West Wing.
posted by mmoncur at 3:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Given that the medium makes the message and an orange is arguably the most pro-Trump fruit possible, the question was heavily weighted in Trump's favor and she STILL chose Putin (as, of course, she should - he's a person of actual real-world import while DJT is still, as yet, a pretender).
posted by stolyarova at 3:49 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jennifer Epstein has deleted her orange tweet. Why? WHAT IS HILLARY HIDING INSIDE THAT ORANGE?
posted by stolyarova at 3:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

Press corps rolls orange to Clinton with a question inked on it: dinner with Trump or Putin? She circled Putin. [real]

Sorry that page does not exist
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thankfully, this: New Jersey GOPer Quits Race After He Told Female Reporter He Hopes She Gets 'Raped'

I'm honestly surprised, I assumed he would double right on down on his violent woman-hating, seeing as that seems to be the thing to do in the Year Of Our Lord 2016.

Looks like there are one or two violent woman-hating Republicans who have retained a shred of ability to feel shame. That's nice, I guess.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

‏@jeneps: Some misunderstanding. Clinton didn't actually answer the orange question. A staffer circled Putin. We're still waiting for her response.

@jeneps: Clinton has, though, answered about 45 mins of questions from traveling press over past 2 days. Orange roll is a campaign plane tradition.
posted by zarq at 3:54 PM on September 6, 2016 [17 favorites]

Press corps rolls orange to Clinton with a question inked on it: dinner with Trump or Putin? She circled Putin.

Seems legit, I mean if I have to have dinner with an evil right-wing nationalist prick I figure Putin has some ability to make conversation about something beside his own greatness, whereas the jury's still out on whether Trump is actually able to focus on a not-him topic for more than about three minutes.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

plus maybe Putin would have cool KGB stories
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:56 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

> David Cay Johnston gives an interesting talk promoting his new book, The Making of Donald Trump, on Slate's Live at Politics & Prose podcast the other day.

Just listened to this. Excellent work. Have downloaded an excerpt from the book. Johnston makes a case that Trump could release tax returns that are too old to even be audited, but says he won't because of fraud in one or two of them (one year in the 1980s & I think maybe one in the 70s).

D. C. Johnston on The Daily Beast. One article he pushes in the P & P talk The Tax Speech That Could Elect President Donald J. Trump (tl;dr -- Trump paid little to no income tax, all the rich folks, including Hilary, do it (Romney didn't work for Bain, he *owned* it with great tax benefits) and it's got to stop, so Trump pledges to pay his fair share from now on)
posted by morganw at 3:57 PM on September 6, 2016

The "I SURVIVED THE METAFILTER ELECTION THREADS OF 2016" memorabilia is gonna have to be pretty goddamned sweet for my having endured round five billion and three of the godforsaken emails. If we start relitigating the primaries yet again, the only drinks I'm buying any of you will be Malort.

Anyway, thanks for a whole new set of things to worry about at the debates, what if Hillary coughs and our pathetic excuse for a functioning and responsible media publishes a week's worth of HOT TAKES about how Hillary is at death's door and how coughing is unpresidential and remember that time Nixon looked real sweaty on tv ahahaha kill me now
posted by yasaman at 3:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

Sean Spicer has won the coin toss and Trump will go second in the Commander in Chief Forum tomorrow night. Does that mean he gets to watch Clinton and poach her answers?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:58 PM on September 6, 2016

Putin is a (horrible) world leader. This is a no brainer orange.
posted by bearwife at 3:58 PM on September 6, 2016

Looks like there are one or two violent woman-hating Republicans who have retained a shred of ability to feel shame.

that's a leap. someone probably cut his purse strings.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:58 PM on September 6, 2016 [10 favorites]

someone should make one of those punch trump in the face websites.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

WHAT IS HILLARY HIDING INSIDE THAT ORANGE?

EMAILS

obviously
posted by stolyarova at 4:00 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

In an hour, you should turn on Joy Reid on MSNBC. She covers the things we talk about in here. She stays on top of so much of the same things we do, and she's filling in for Chris Hayes again tonight.

If you have complaints about shitty journalism, throw some good ratings her way, please. She's doing it right. 8:00pm Eastern, on MSNBC.

Joy Reid:

TV plans tonight: filling in one more 'gain for @chrislhayes on @allinwithchris -talking media, double standards and "pay to play." Tune in!

posted by cashman at 4:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

(also, she said one mo gain. She's freaking awesome.)
posted by cashman at 4:02 PM on September 6, 2016

1980: Nancy Reagan bowls oranges down the plane aisle during her husband's campaign.

2008: Clinton bowls oranges

2012: Orange bowling on the Romney / Ryan planes
posted by zarq at 4:03 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

How Donald Trump shattered his own movement

While global trends may eventually push the Republican Party away from the business class and towards nationalists on immigration restriction, the rest of Trumpism seems bound to go into abeyance.

Trump brags about bringing millions of new voters into the party. And surely, he's inspired some new voters. But the more salient fact of the Trump campaign to Republican officeholders and apparatchiks is the poverty it is bringing the party. Trump doesn't seem like an improvement to them at all. He isn't making the party more popular; he's running well behind Mitt Romney. And this is true despite the fact that Hillary Clinton is a much weaker and less popular opponent than an incumbent Barack Obama.

Further, the party's fundraising base is appalled. The wallets are closed. The party's expert class is demoralized; Trump can't even field a normal slate of advisers.</blockquote

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:04 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Jennifer Epstein has deleted her orange tweet. Why? WHAT IS HILLARY HIDING INSIDE THAT ORANGE?

somebody wrote (C) on the orange so they had to redact it
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:04 PM on September 6, 2016 [24 favorites]

Mrs. Clinton was under the impression the (C) was shorthand for the type of vitamin contained therein.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:08 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Greta Van Susteren is leaving FOX News after 14 years.

A courier arrived at Van Susteren's Washington, D.C. home at 9 a.m. Tuesday, hand-delivering two letters that said that Van Susteren "was being taken off the air" immediately, according to her husband, John Coale, who is a high-profile Washington lawyer.

Van Susteren was already planning to leave, but she thought she would be hosting her 7 p.m. program "On the Record" for a few more weeks.

Yanking her off the air without a chance to say goodbye was "a bit immature," Coale remarked.

It was also a message from Rupert Murdoch.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

the republican party AND fox news crumbling into dust? who said 2016 sucks?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:13 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

dis_integration: Could we maybe possibly think of this as a ... wait for it... danger zone?

I am in favor of the election threads becoming largely Archer/Hamilton mashups.

On that note:
NoxAeternum: Dave Weigel blames voters for him not doing his job. Your press corps, folks.

The media turned around so they could have deniability.
posted by Superplin at 4:18 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

who said 2016 sucks?

I still stand by the sentiment that 2016 sucks.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [29 favorites]

Yeah...

Especially when FOX News losing power and influence may lead to:

The Trumpbart News Network: Where The Alt-Right is All Right
posted by defenestration at 4:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Geez. Definitely out of evens now. Trump welcomes endorsement from 88 military leaders.
posted by vac2003 at 4:23 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Will give consideration to this point of view when said crumbling has actually occurred and when it is successfully stores in a safe location where nobody can, say, drip blood on to it causing it to reconstitute into its terrifying vampiric form.
posted by Artw at 4:24 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Geez. Definitely out of evens now. Trump welcomes endorsement from 88 military leaders.

exactly 88 huh what a cowinkydink
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [62 favorites]

Donald Trump Live in Greenville, NC

David Mack on twitter has pictures and a few choice quotes:

Rudy now accusing Clinton of sawing her phones in half and tossing them in a river

"We're going to build beautiful safe zones in Syria and other people are going to pay for it," Trump says.

Big cheers for Trump's unnamed friends who supposedly don't holiday in France yearly now but instead are coming to North Carolina.

Trump highlights 88 general supporting him. "These are the fighters, the Warriors, not the political hacks that supported Hillary."

Trump says his generals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:27 PM on September 6, 2016

David Mack: College bro shouts "Hillary killed Harambe"
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump says his generals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

Or what?
posted by tzikeh at 4:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Or they're fired?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

exactly 88 huh what a cowinkydink

How many dogwhistles, anti-semitic 4Chan memes and white supremacist references can one campaign use in a single election?
posted by zarq at 4:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [30 favorites]

all of them
posted by dersins at 4:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [30 favorites]

Apparently.
posted by zarq at 4:37 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Generals, Admirals To Endorse Donald Trump | Andrea Mitchell | MSNBC

"Let's put it into perspective.."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:39 PM on September 6, 2016

I look forward to late-campaign Trump ranting about "normies"
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump says his generals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

This is the military version of the guy who knows nothing about climatology but is convinced he's thought up twenty objections to global warming that anybody sufficiently conversant with the science to have an opinion would know were all answered or debunked decades ago.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:41 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

>plus maybe Putin would have cool KGB stories

Yeah, but don't drink the tea.
posted by pompomtom at 4:41 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

How many dogwhistles, anti-semitic 4Chan memes and white supremacist references can one campaign use in a single election?

TotenkopfHatChallengeAccepted.jpg
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:41 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Any of the good Generals or Admirals?
posted by drezdn at 4:42 PM on September 6, 2016

> the republican party AND fox news crumbling into dust?

I don't know about Fox News, but...the GOP has a candidate that its traditional power base and vast swathes of the electorate hate, who can't or won't hire competent employees, who has caused traditional donors to close their wallets, who can't or won't go more than a few days without insulting and/or threatening anyone from individuals to entire racial or religious groups, who has proven himself unable or unwilling to establish the campaign infrastructure one traditionally requires in order to credibly run for president, etc., etc., etc...and yet he's still polling within striking distance of Clinton. How do you think a traditional Republican who knows how and when to say the loud parts quiet would be doing against Hillary? My guess is very well indeed.

> Trump says his generals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

Not that it matters, but...I thought he already had a foolproof plan? And now he's going to wait for these generals to come up with one? Sad!
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Not that it matters, but...I thought he already had a foolproof plan?

Not only did he invent a secret plan to fight an invasion, but now he won't support it.
posted by zarq at 4:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

I had fun suggesting that Gamera uses his rocket limbs to get up onto fence posts.

To be sure, Gamera *is* really neat.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

White supremacist alphanumeric codes are just so...fuckin' stupid. Like, wow, racism with an extra helping of a subtly different type of intellectual sloth as your public traits? Gross.

I find myself upset on multiple axes when I see such codes.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 5:03 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Libby Anne at Love, Joy, Feminism: The Party of Family Values, My Foot!:

I’ve long since realized that much of what I was taught, as a homeschooled evangelical conservative Republican girl, was highly selective, very biased, and even flat-out false. But that’s not why I’m angry today. Oh no, I’m angry for a completely different reason. I’m angry because even on their own terms, Republicans’ claim to be the party of “family values” is spurious and hollow. I’m angry because the GOP holds double standards to beat all other double standards. I’m angry at the deception.

You can’t get much more “family man” than Barack Obama. He’s a loving husband and a dedicated father. His relationship with his wife, Michelle, and with their daughters, Malia and Sasha, is wonderful to behold. He has never been accused of infidelity. He has never been on the cover of Playboy. He has never left a wife for another woman. He speaks of Michelle with respect, honor, and admiration. Pictures of him with his daughters are a sight to behold. And yet, evangelicals accused this family man of being the antichrist, and worse. They have spent the past eight years vilifying him up and down. The hatred has been palpable.

posted by palindromic at 5:04 PM on September 6, 2016 [90 favorites]

*really tries to resist making a Crazy 88 joke*

*fails*
posted by threeturtles at 5:05 PM on September 6, 2016

the republican party AND fox news crumbling into dust? who said 2016 sucks?

I'd be a lot happier if the dust wasn't winning 45% of the popular vote.
posted by mmoncur at 5:08 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

I swear that in 4 years we are going to look back and be shaking our heads over the deep analysis that went into Clinton's cough.

I don't know about that. In the 90s, Congressman Dan Burten held hearings to prove that Hillary executed Vincent Foster, including shooting watermelons with his pistol in his backyard. This was all covered by the press. He continued to serve for in Congress for another 15 years. I don't think the press has any head-shaking shame.

By the way, the suicide of Vincent Foster, Hillary's friend and colleague, is attributed to the incessant hounding he received from the press, followed by the press trying to hang a murder on Hillary. But no reason for Hillary to hold a grudge, eh?

Here is his suicide note:

I made mistakes from ignorance, inexperience and overwork

I did not knowingly violate any law or standard of conduct

No one in The White House, to my knowledge, violated any law or standard of conduct, including any action in the travel office. There was no intent to benefit any individual or specific group

The FBI lied in their report to the AG

The press is covering up the illegal benefits they received from the travel staff

The GOP has lied and misrepresented its knowledge and role and covered up a prior investigation

The Ushers Office plotted to have excessive costs incurred, taking advantage of Kaki and HRC

The public will never believe the innocence of the Clintons and their loyal staff

The WSJ editors lie without consequence

I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport.

Sounds depressingly familiar.
posted by JackFlash at 5:08 PM on September 6, 2016 [69 favorites]

Also, I really (feel the) need to chime in about the bit up in the thread about Secretary Clinton 'never' apologizing for mistakes. She has. When Clinton displayed unawareness of how HIV/AIDS activists had led the charge for the government to take notice, I wrote to her campaign. I had a relative die of AIDS in the late 80s, and I expressed my upset feelings about those comments. The campaign responded with the text of her apology.

I felt heard and validated, when I received that mail. If hearing and responding to the voices of LGBTQ+ people is what Democrats need to do to win elections, I have to think that is a good thing for the country.

Has Clinton been the best ally in the past? Maybe not; however, her campaign reached out to me and gave people like me a voice at her convention at center stage in front of the whole country. It seems like she is acting on her words.

Hillary Clinton has apologized at least once in political life.

QED.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 5:14 PM on September 6, 2016 [37 favorites]

I must be low on sleep because I read a line above as

Trump says his genitals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

and because of the kind of campaign this has been it took me like two full minutes of ruminating on it before I went hey waitaminute and scrolled back up to double-check.
posted by Mothlight at 5:17 PM on September 6, 2016 [23 favorites]

Trump says his genitals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

seems too short

he may need a small hand with that
posted by Emmy Noether at 5:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

exactly 88 huh what a cowinkydink

For people not in the know, 88 is a white supremacist numerical code for "Heil Hitler."
posted by peeedro at 5:22 PM on September 6, 2016 [12 favorites]

"You know, it really doesn't matter what they write as long as you've got a young and beautiful piece of ISIS."

[fake]
posted by box at 5:23 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

For people not in the know, 88 is a white supremacist numerical code for "Heil Hitler."

Well, as one of the organizers of the letter was this man, I think we can be 100% sure that is a coincidence.
posted by kickingtheground at 5:25 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

And since it relates to a discussion we were having in the last thread: Today I learned that a close friend of mine has been denied disability benefits (same as I was.) She was born with multiple birth defects including missing organs, undersized and misshapen organs. Her medical history is extensive and well-documented. As she approaches 40, it's all catching up to her and she's had several life-threatening hospitalizations in recent years. She has a heart condition that requires frequent ER visits if she physically strains herself (and cannot be corrected by surgery due to her birth defects). Her disability is visible and she has a really hard time getting hired as a result of discrimination. She's someone who really was handed a raw deal at birth. And yet, she still is not "disabled enough."

So I'm just putting that out there as an anecdotal point to counter all the "my cousin gets disability for allergies/a hangnail/whatever."
posted by threeturtles at 5:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [28 favorites]

Current Johnson/Weld ad that YouTube is spamming me with.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:41 PM on September 6, 2016

I'd be interested to see who these (alleged) 88 retired generals and admirals are. Something tells me these won't be the respected thinkers or the real movers and shakers of the upper brass. Plus this is retired officers (active duty have no business giving out endorsements), so this list could reach way back to some serious "womenfolk belong in the kitchen" culture.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

On a lighter note, the shirt that I ordered during the convention finally arrived today!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:54 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Joy Reid reporting on the "Clinton Rules" right now.
posted by zutalors! at 5:54 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

as the good Lord is my witness, i clicked on this link and the comment number was 666, i swear its the truth
posted by beemerboxer at 5:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

posted by ChurchHatesTucker (666 comments total) [remove from activity] [add to favorites] 94 users marked this as a favorite [!]

Checks out.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, well I think we should just leave off the nickname thing, including the "Donnie", which just sounds like a term of endearment to me. He's also not a child, he's a full grown horrible man.
posted by zutalors! at 6:06 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'd be interested to see who these (alleged) 88 retired generals and admirals are.

Link to the pdf with names listed. Some weirdness there, like the phrase "Islamic supremacist adversaries" and this sentence: "As retired senior leaders of America’s military, we believe that such a change can only be made by someone who has not been deeply involved with, and substantially responsible for, the hollowing out of our military and the burgeoning threats facing our country around the world."

So in their words, Hillary Clinton is deeply involved with and substantially responsible for the threats facing our country. She was the MVP for ISIS after all.
posted by peeedro at 6:12 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Threeturtles, I was a mental health counselor years ago, and I had multiple incidents that were maddeningly similar to that (though not AS maddening). I saw a gentleman who lost his arm to the shoulder--on the job--who was battling for disability. He had an 8th grade education and had been doing manual labor his entire life. YEARS of battling, with the judges saying things like, "He could do data entry." I posit if we gave EVERYONE who applied for disability (other than the egregious fakers) the benefits the first go around, we'd probably save money by putting these soulless nay-saying drones out of work. It's a travesty.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:14 PM on September 6, 2016 [17 favorites]

dont mean to interrupt, but ive been here dwelling for 6-7 yrs, finally coughed up the big bucks to join. love this site
posted by beemerboxer at 6:23 PM on September 6, 2016 [105 favorites]

Welcome, Beemerboxer!
posted by Superplin at 6:30 PM on September 6, 2016

Welcome, boxer!
posted by vrakatar at 6:30 PM on September 6, 2016

Good to have you here, bb!
posted by OmieWise at 6:33 PM on September 6, 2016

yay welcome!
posted by zutalors! at 6:35 PM on September 6, 2016

Delete Your Account! Jk
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Does your blood instantly run cold with a massive infusion of snark upon putting down the $5, or does it build up over a few weeks? I can't remember

also, welcome.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [28 favorites]

Does your blood instantly run cold with a massive infusion of snark upon putting down the $5, or does it build up over a few weeks? I can't remember

A shifty man in a trench-coat delivered mine
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:41 PM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

A shifty man in a trench-coat delivered mine

That was probably just cortex.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [26 favorites]

I got really depressed today reading the NYT article about the trial that is starting today (or this week) over Bridgegate. It's just so horrible. People are so horrible. The stakes were nothing, and those political flacks, and Christie, thought nothing of really fucking up the daily lives of countless people. And it's kind of clear that it's just politics as normal. What a shitty world we live in. And we're (Americans) the lucky ones.
posted by OmieWise at 6:45 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

finally coughed up the big bucks to join. love this site

great, more coughing
posted by um at 6:46 PM on September 6, 2016 [46 favorites]

Generals Indorse Trump

Also, we didn't win the butt. :/
posted by petebest at 6:47 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is "indorse" different than "endorse"???
Maybe it means even less than nothing!
posted by Golem XIV at 6:48 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

In some parts of the country it's still too hot to campaign outdorse.
posted by Superplin at 6:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [30 favorites]

Is an indorsement like an endorsement but with gold fringe
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:52 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

I went to look at the indorsement and got distracted by this:

Butts will be available for pickup on Friday 09/02 after 12:30PM at Vidalia Communications and must be picked up by 4:00PM.

posted by pxe2000 at 6:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

There are some real winners among the 88 retired military leaders who signed letter endorsing Trump.
posted by palomar at 7:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

Seems legit, I mean if I have to have dinner with an evil right-wing nationalist prick I figure Putin has some ability to make conversation about something beside his own greatness, whereas the jury's still out on whether Trump is actually able to focus on a not-him topic for more than about three minutes.

Didn't someone dig up that Clinton's number 5 reason for appearing on Letterman was to get out of dinner with Donald Trump?
posted by Francis at 7:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Subhead in The Atlantic: "His campaign announced endorsements from 88 retired generals and admirals. That’s nice, but 500 backed Mitt Romney in 2012."
posted by Sys Rq at 7:02 PM on September 6, 2016 [31 favorites]

Is an indorsement like an endorsement but with gold fringe

Yes and also there are admirals.
posted by dersins at 7:02 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

In some parts of the country it's still too hot to campaign outdorse.

Inside of a dorse, it's too dark to campaign!
posted by lefty lucky cat at 7:03 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]

"His campaign announced endorsements from 88 retired generals and admirals. That’s nice, but 500 backed Mitt Romney in 2012."

Jesus fuck how many fucking generals are there?
posted by dersins at 7:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Indorse is apparently a legit variant of endorse.

THE MORE YOU KNOW (*stars*)
posted by dis_integration at 7:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

If you need a thread break Comedy Central has posted the Rob Lowe Roast on their mobile app and for streaming. Numerous Ann Coulter jokes.
posted by humanfont at 7:05 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh good. House oversight chair asks for new investigation of deleted Clinton emails

House Oversight Committee Chairman Jason Chaffetz on Tuesday requested yet another Justice Department investigation of Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton — this one focused on emails that a tech company staffer deleted in spite of a congressional committee’s request that they be preserved.

In the letter . . . the Utah Republican asks for an investigation to determine whether “Secretary Clinton or her employees and contractors violated statutes that prohibit destruction of records, obstruction of congressional inquiries, and concealment or cover up of evidence material to a congressional investigation.”

DELETED! [/Strongbad]
posted by petebest at 7:08 PM on September 6, 2016

Acceptable indorsements.

(1) A check is properly indorsed when:

(i) The check is indorsed by the payee in a form recognized by general principles of law and commercial usage for negotiation, transfer or collection of negotiable instruments.
posted by clavdivs at 7:08 PM on September 6, 2016

Jesus fuck how many fucking generals are there?

Over 3500 living flag grade officers (i.e. generals and admirals). Having the backing of 88 is nothing to crow about, so it reads as either a blatant dog-whistle for neo-Nazis or yet another indicator that Trump has no clue about reality and is being led around by the more nefarious elements on his campaign staff.
posted by palomar at 7:09 PM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

Iraq. Crime Bill. Super predators.

Her apology for her contribution to Iraq's situation contains some interesting language. She claimed in her book Hard Choices to have acted — in her words — on the best information she had at the time, which was a classified NIE document about WMDs (weaponry that ended up never existing) that it became clear in a 2008 interview on Meet the Press she had not read. Inconsistencies between that same document and an unclassified version convinced prominent Dem. Senators to vote against the war. If she had bothered to read the original classified document, would she have voted differently? Why would she not be up-front about making a decision on the basis of information she chose not to read, about a serious issue with deadly consequences for millions of lives?

It immediately raises obvious questions about her judgement when it comes to matters of using the military for foreign policy. And whether or not her orange-headed opponent is a racist idiot should be completely irrelevant to the importance of asking those kinds of questions of anyone who wants to lead our country.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:09 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you think the Clintons are in politics to enrich themselves, you must think them to be incredibly stupid. ... Enriching themselves, give me a break.

These "rich, you don't even know rich" arguments are infuriating. Like, I'm sorry I thought of them as rich, and enriching themselves from their political work, because they only made $38 million in 2014 and 2015.

WaPo: "Bill Clinton was paid more than $100 million for speeches between 2001 and 2013." Not efficient? It doesn't get more efficient than that outside of pure rentier income.

This perverse argument about how much richer they could be, or more easily by different methods, just adds to the list of reasons I'd never vote for a standard-mould politician again. I mean, go ahead and quote that stuff in your Clinton volunteer work, I'm sure it will grab converts left and right.

From way outside the beltway, this is sylvanshine, who describes himself as "both Canadian and on the wrong site".
posted by sylvanshine at 7:09 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Here's hoping that Hillary Clinton is going to make a few phonecalls and fire back with a couple of hundred retired admirals and generals...
posted by Francis at 7:09 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did the 88 endorse him with a certain number of words, perhaps? Jesus, they're not even trying to be subtle about the racist codes anymore.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Huh, one of the generals is a holocaust survivor.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on September 6, 2016

Lawrence O'Donnell has that idiot Boris Trump supporter on.
posted by zutalors! at 7:13 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

rob lowe: people ask why is ann coulter here tonite? because the right-to-lifers wanted everyone to see what an abortion looks like up close. and you know ann, after seeing your set tonight, i think we've all just witnessed the first bombing you can't blame on a muslim.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:13 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think this veterans' forum NBC is doing tomorrow is gimmicky and irresponsible by the way, and i feel bad that the whole MSNBC lineup has to sell it.
posted by zutalors! at 7:14 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

Frm palomar's link above:
retired Lt. Gen. William G. “Jerry” Boykin, a hard-core Christian nationalist who said the Christian god is bigger than Allah.

He is so far along the right-wing spectrum that even President George W. Bush had to reprimand him for his statements—made while in uniform—that the U.S. is and should be engaged in a holy war against Islam, that there should be no mosques in America, that Islam is not really a religion, that Muslims should not be protected by the First Amendment, that President Obama is a “secret Muslim” who “cavort[s] with the enemy” and that Jesus is a real “man’s man” who will return to earth carrying an AR-15.

Where at least I know I'm freeeeeee
posted by petebest at 7:18 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]

this election is making GWB look really good
posted by zutalors! at 7:19 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

Man this sekrit mooslim thing will never die, will it. I'll be 79 and reminiscing about my salad days and how good we had it in the Obama years, all things considered, and somebody will be like "but the MADRASSAS" and I'll probably smack their face because all fucks will have run out by then and also it will be waterworld. (in this vision, I'm jeanne tripplehorne don't judge)
posted by dis_integration at 7:23 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

This perverse argument about how much richer they could be, or more easily by different methods, just adds to the list of reasons I'd never vote for a standard-mould politician again. I mean, go ahead and quote that stuff in your Clinton volunteer work, I'm sure it will grab converts left and right.

And their income makes them worse than Trump how?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:27 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

From that list of 88:

Major General John Miller, US Air Force, Retired

2016 SEASON WRITERS, TRY HARDER
posted by stolyarova at 7:27 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

I mean, go ahead and quote that stuff in your Clinton volunteer work, I'm sure it will grab converts left and right.

That's not how Clinton volunteer work works, sorry.
posted by zutalors! at 7:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

And their income makes them worse than Trump how?

Literally noone in these threads has ever suggested that the Clintons are worse than Trump. I think maybe we saw one centipede in here like 4 political threads ago, so an eternity.
posted by dis_integration at 7:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Literally noone in these threads has ever suggested that the Clintons are worse than Trump.

for your contextual pleasure
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I mean, go ahead and quote that stuff in your Clinton volunteer work, I'm sure it will grab converts left and right.

That's not how Clinton volunteer work works

That's not how any of this works!
posted by bongo_x at 7:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Clinton voted for a resolution that authorized Bush to take the United States to war in Iraq if diplomacy and sanctions failed to get UN weapons inspectors back into Iraq and restrain Iraq's alleged WMD programs. She said at the time that it was not a blank check for war and she also supported several amendments to further restrain Bush. Those amendments were blocked by Republicans.
It was not a vote for immediate war. The resolution was effective at getting UN inspectors back in Iraq.

Unfortunately Bush decided to go to war before the inspectors had finished anything; while diplomatic options were still available. He used fake intelligence to claim he had met the provisions of the Congressional resolution.
posted by humanfont at 7:40 PM on September 6, 2016 [35 favorites]

this comedy central roast is pretty great

at Ann Coulter... "how do I roast someone from hell"
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:46 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

2016 SEASON WRITERS, TRY HARDER

please dont provoke them
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:49 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

this election is making GWB look really good

It's really not, let's not forget who's power vacuum actually was "the founder" of ISIS. Or maybe you mean he didn't overtly call for the deportation of all Muslims, if so I guess that's one in his column over Trump. Maybe the only one, given that he did fuel the "you're with us or against us" attacks on all Democrats as traitors to America. Seems like it all balanced out to the worst president in American history by a good bit. At least unless Trump wins.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

New news on Bondi/Trump. Trump held a fundraiser for Bondi a few months after he donated 25k to her.

WASHINGTON ― In March 2014, Donald Trump opened his 126-room Palm Beach resort, Mar-a-Lago, for a $3,000-per-person fundraiser for Pam Bondi, the Florida attorney general who had recently decided not to investigate Trump University and was facing a tough re-election campaign.

Trump, whose personal foundation had given $25,000 to a pro-Bondi group the previous fall, did not write a check to the attorney general that night. But by hosting her at Mar-a-Lago and bringing in some of his own high-profile Florida contacts, he provided her campaign with a nice financial boost.

Bondi got an execution rescheduled so she could kick off her campaign with that fundraiser.

More on the fundraiser, including additional amounts the Trumps gave, and an image of the invite, at the link. Lawrence O'Donnell just mentioned it on his show.
posted by cashman at 7:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [28 favorites]

Is "indorse" different than "endorse"???

It's the Spanish for "to stab oneself in the back"
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:55 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

this election is making GWB look really good

It's really not, let's not forget who's power vacuum actually was "the founder" of ISIS. Or maybe you mean he didn't overtly call for the deportation of all Muslims, if so I guess that's one in his column over Trump.

I'm well aware, "really good" was a joke. But yeah, i would prefer that over the open racism the Trump campaign is inspiring, being a brown person and all.
posted by zutalors! at 7:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

That Rob Lowe roast - damn!

"Ann Coulter is one of the most repugnant, hateful bitches alive — but it's not too late to change, Ann. You could kill yourself." — Jimmy Carr

I mean, that's not even a joke. Not that I disagree with the sentiment exactly, but it's just one more example of how we've all apparently decided to go full id this year.
posted by bibliowench at 7:58 PM on September 6, 2016 [14 favorites]

That invite is pretty tacky looking. Meredith can do better.

Also, maybe don't reschedule executions, you cold-blooded lizard Lawyer.
posted by Yowser at 8:03 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bondi got an execution rescheduled so she could kick off her campaign with that fundraiser.

Gross as fuck.
posted by Artw at 8:06 PM on September 6, 2016 [21 favorites]

A bit of contextual information I haven't seen and I'm curious about: Does Donald Trump make routine donations to state attorneys general, or only to the ones he hopes will quash investigations?
posted by Emmy Noether at 8:08 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

3 Truths of This Campaign as We Head Into the Home Stretch.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

The sub header on that article is
"We have 62 days left." I don't think Esquire knows the meaning of the phrase 'Home Stretch'.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:20 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Into the Home Stretch"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
posted by tzikeh at 8:22 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

3 Truths of This Campaign as We Head Into the Home Stretch.
More than anything else, and more than any other election in my lifetime, this election will go one way or the other based on how well-informed the electorate is that ultimately turns out.
fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu
posted by dersins at 8:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

more like the seventh-inning stretch amirite?

(am I? I don't actually know that many sports metaphors)
posted by nonasuch at 8:26 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey, I hear some people don't like Hillary Clinton, why is it she never gets any criticism? There must be a reason no one, including the press, wants to confront her for the last couple of decades. Is everyone afraid? I'll dig down and bring the truth to everyone, that's the kind of braveheart I am.

(tagged: so fucking sarcastic I'm getting little specks of spittle on your face.)

I'm not a historian, but odds are we've literally never had someone so qualified and vetted for the job of President, running against someone who's got to be the least qualified and dangerous major candidate in our history, and people want to "well, but" debate and truth-tell it all into the ground.

Stop with the "wake up sheeple" bullshit. If you're spreading the propaganda about Clinton you're the sheeple. All of this wishy washy support for someone who's obviously the best available candidate is just making my commitment stronger.

I can't have 20, 30 at the outside, more years on this earth and I'd like to spend them in the US, mainly because I'm lazy. Just try to keep it together that long and then the rest of y'all can form the world's biggest circular firing squad and do whatever the fuck you want. At least give me 8 if that's all you can do so I can make plans.
posted by bongo_x at 8:27 PM on September 6, 2016 [83 favorites]

bongo_x what is that in response to?
posted by zutalors! at 8:29 PM on September 6, 2016

"We have 62 days left." I don't think Esquire knows the meaning of the phrase 'Home Stretch'.

The first Republican debate was 6 August 2015, which was almost 400 days ago.

62 days is the home stretch.
posted by dersins at 8:29 PM on September 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Here's what I dug up: 13 donations to state AGs (mostly NY) prior to the donations to Abbott (TX, $35k) and Bondi (FL, $25k). Previous largest donation was $28k to Dennis Vacco of NY in 1998. I wonder what Donald got from him?

There's no way the Abbott and Bondi donations weren't bribes.
posted by Emmy Noether at 8:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [16 favorites]

The first Republican debate was 6 August 2015, which was almost 400 days ago.

And Sherlock still hasn't returned for another series.
posted by tzikeh at 8:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

I made a Trump supporter cry in frustration tonight. Long story short, they really wanted to talk/lecture me about how great Trump is and I wanted nothing to do with it. Being up here in Canada meeting one face to face caught me off guard and I really just wanted them to shut it. I tried the 'I really don't care/don't want to talk about it' strategy and it didn't work. This person really wanted/needed? to talk. I dunno. I finally had enough and said that look it's simple I don't subscribe to bigoted, facist, ignorant and just plain ole stupid ways of looking at the world and other people and there is absolutely nothing you can say that I haven't heard a bajillion times before that will convince me otherwise. So please just can it. I don't give a shit about what you think."

Person said 'So your calling me a bigot etc etc etc.?'

Me with a shrug 'I guess so.'

Person literally teared up, they were so upset and worked up about the whole thing. It was surreal.

I literally left where I was early because I started getting all upset an emotional because now I felt like crap. I cried in the car on the way home. I STILL feel like crap because part of me feels awful that I upset the person so much and part of me feels 'good riddance, you deserve it."

And this isn't even our election! I've never experienced anything like this and I spent several years in actual politics. I've been yelled at on the street, I been called actual horrible names over political differences before. But for some reason that I'm still sitting here trying to parse and figure out this is one of the worst 'political' conversation incidents I have ever experienced.

This election is just so, so bad.
posted by Jalliah at 8:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [94 favorites]

I just did some arithmetic and I think this election has already gone on for 3.4 percent OF MY LIFE. (Counting from the first GOP debate as noted above.)

My birthday is 4/9/85, please tell me I fucked that calculation up.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Nah Jalliah you did the right thing. Why should you shoulder the burden of making bigots feel ok?
posted by um at 8:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [48 favorites]

Its amazing how the people who have all these insanely bigoted/racist views somehow still see being called a racist/bigot as some horrible thing. The most public example right now is LePage.

They want to have the positions without any stigma or repercussions. I don't feel sorry for them at all. Even the white nationalist types seem to dislike the term now. But it doesn't change their behavior or beliefs, they just don't want to be (accurately) described as racist.
posted by thefoxgod at 8:44 PM on September 6, 2016 [34 favorites]

Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV) “says Democrats should move to curtail the filibuster if they win the White House and Senate in November only to run up against persistent use of the tactic by Republicans,” the New York Times reports.

Said Reid: “Unless after this election there is a dramatic change to go back to the way it used to be, the Senate will have to evolve as it has in the past. But it will evolve with a majority vote determining stuff. It is going to happen.”
posted by Chrysostom at 8:50 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Its amazing how the people who have all these insanely bigoted/racist views somehow still see being called a racist/bigot as some horrible thing.

I feel like I need some white people to explain this to me.
posted by zutalors! at 8:55 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

My birthday is 4/9/85, please tell me I fucked that calculation up.

So let's say your life is 31 years. Trump declared his candidacy in June 2015. So 1 year and 2 months ago, or 1.16 years ago. 1.16/31 * 100 = 3.74% of your life.

Pay up.
posted by dis_integration at 8:55 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

please tell me I fucked that calculation up.

The problem is defining when the primaries "started". The first debate? When Trump declared? Jeb was fundraising for a year before that. 3.4 percent is probably the minimum reasonable number. Hope that helps.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 PM on September 6, 2016

Nah Jalliah you did the right thing. Why should you shoulder the burden of making bigots feel ok?

Definitely shouldn't and normally it doesn't. I know this. In the past during protests I've been face to face with white nationalists. I said strong things to them. I sang obnoxiously at them. I don't regret anything I said and don't feel bad about that at all. For some reason this really hit me and is different somehow. I'm trying to figure out why.
I dunno maybe it's frustrated emotion on my end as well, it's all very frustrating on so many levels.
posted by Jalliah at 8:59 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe it's that you were witnessing someone experiencing pain and confusion over their own cognitive dissonance, rather that what you have normally experienced: people who are hide-bound and who don't care at all what you think, you pinko, you. This person CARED what you think, and saw themselves, no matter how dimly, through your eyes. It's possible you saw the beginning of some enlightenment. Some people can't reach that without pain. And it's hard to watch another in pain--no matter how abhorrent their views are--if you are a caring person, as you seem to be.
posted by thebrokedown at 9:10 PM on September 6, 2016 [34 favorites]

I feel like I need some white people to explain this to me.

One person explained it to me like this, summarized: You can't call me racist or a bigot because what I am saying is not racist or bigoted. It's rational and logical if you would just listen to my arguments. It's based on true facts. You're calling me that to make me look bad which makes you a liar. ..... plus what you say doesn't matter anyway because you are a traitor to the white race and that makes you the bigot and the racist. (neener neener)

At one time I was involved in a conflict regarding FNs and white nationalists got involved mostly to try to start a fight/war. It was as awful as you can probably imagine but in hindsight at least I got a pretty straight up view on how the types think and what sort of evil crap they try to pull in order to purposely cause trouble.
posted by Jalliah at 9:11 PM on September 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

> I just did some arithmetic and I think this election has already gone on for 3.4 percent OF MY LIFE. (Counting from the first GOP debate as noted above.) My birthday is 4/9/85, please tell me I fucked that calculation up.

Stand back, I'm a professional!

I converted the following dates to Modified Julian Days (basically counting days from an arbitrary starting point:
1985 04 09 is MJD 46164.5 (Start of your life)
2015 08 06 is MJD 57240.5 (First Republican debate - we'll count the kickoff from here?)
2016 09 07 is MJD 57638.5 (Today, close enough)

(57638.5 - 57240.5)/(57638.5 - 46164.5) * 100 = 3.4687 %

Let's round that to 3.5%, and since the election campaign started before the first debate by any reasonable measure, that's a lower limit.

Now I feel terrible.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:14 PM on September 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

thebrokedown, thanks that insight is helpful in figuring it out.
posted by Jalliah at 9:14 PM on September 6, 2016

I feel like I need some white people to explain this to me.

White man reporting in. I have three theories.

1. "Racist" is recognized as an insult like "asshole" but not recognized as a descriptor of behavior. They know is a bad thing to be but don't think it describes them. "I'm not a racist, but..."

2. "Racist" specifically refers to rednecks who aren't refined like the person being accused of racism. In this construct, racist is a synonym for poor white trash, typically southern. "We might not like those people, but we're not racists like those back woods yokels."

3. "Racist" refers to people who actively commit physical violence. "I hate blah people, but I'm not racist. I'd never hurt anyone." #Santorum

Anyhow the point is racists are always somebody else, not you. You just are concerned about your culture or recognizing facts or defending your country.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:16 PM on September 6, 2016 [36 favorites]

Jalliah's theory is excellent and also rings true.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:18 PM on September 6, 2016

Oh, and guess who showed up to the party after all?

NYT: Donald Trump’s Donation Is His Latest Brush With Campaign Fund Rules

Donald J. Trump, who has repeatedly denounced pay-to-play politics during his insurgent campaign, is now defending himself against claims that he donated $25,000 to a group supporting the Florida attorney general, Pam Bondi, to sway her office’s review of fraud allegations at Trump University.

[...] Mr. Trump made the donation from his charitable foundation, in violation of tax regulations, and paid the penalty, as first reported by The Washington Post last week.

Shame on you, NYT.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:18 PM on September 6, 2016 [25 favorites]

Thanks for the explanation, white people. One of the things I love about this site is that you can toss out a request like that and get thoughtful answers.

The thing I don't get though is the visceral anger some white people get when confronted with their own racism. I've seen it from like Paul Lepage down to liberalish friends.

I have lots of privilege and have definitely felt resistance when challenged on or. But nothing like the red faced rage of so many white people.
posted by zutalors! at 9:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Haha. You can track Tehund's progress via favorites. Tehund's in the depths of Khansville, atm, which is about midway through the 100 days out thread from early August.
posted by notyou at 9:30 PM on September 6, 2016 [13 favorites]

I just got a Tehund favorite, which made me inordinately proud.
posted by yhbc at 9:31 PM on September 6, 2016 [19 favorites]

I still don't like Donald Trump and I think he would be bad for America.
posted by mazola at 9:32 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

I got a favorite from Tehhund, too! I was thrilled, but it was impossible to explain my "Oh!" exclamation to my husband without feeling exhausted by the prospect.
posted by thebrokedown at 9:33 PM on September 6, 2016 [29 favorites]

The NY Times headline for Trump's bribe:

Donald Trump’s Donation Is His Latest Brush With Campaign Fund Rules

Fuck them. The Fourth Estate is dead.
posted by Talez at 9:35 PM on September 6, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oh wow my browser is acting weird, I swear that RedOrGreen comment wasn't there when I looked.
posted by Talez at 9:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

I remember my first Tehund favorite.
posted by chris24 at 9:36 PM on September 6, 2016 [7 favorites]

Jaliah, if it makes you feel any better I was getting into an argument today over the football player who isn't standing for the national anthem, and actually told a guy who said "We should have respect for the anthem" that he sounded like a teenage Bieber fan who was upset Daddy turned off the radio in the middle of "Baby".

Racist white people: "Black people shouldn't take to the streets to protest *latest extrajudicial killing*, and instead should protest _peacefully_".
Black person *remains seated during national anthem*
Racist white people: "Not like that either!"
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:38 PM on September 6, 2016 [106 favorites]

Merch update: I received my HRC shot glasses and a bunch of buttons on Friday, causing me to post about politics on Facebook for the first time this election season. Now I have to figure out how I will make use of these items when my handbag is leather and the first debate is on a Monday. I put the smallest button on one of my zipper pulls. Dunno about the shot glasses... beer shots?

I also ordered the Vagenda of Manocide pens. Dammit. At least I'll have no problem using those.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:41 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Racist white people: "Not like that either!"

I totally stole that for my Facebook page, sebastienbailard.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:49 PM on September 6, 2016

My birthday is 4/9/85, please tell me I fucked that calculation up.

Well, I would also point out that you are 11,474 days old, just one hundred days short of the magic moment when you hit one billion seconds.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

this election is making GWB look really good

Miss me yet?
posted by mazola at 9:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

Another thought on the white people racism thing.

Racism, to those unaware of and/or refusing to acknowledge their privilege and the effects of structural racism in US society (i.e. most white folks), is defined as a personal violent hatred, stuff like skinheads and the KKK. To them, racism isn't an action or a statement, it's a state of being basically an irredeemable horrible human being. These folks believe you basically have to self-identify as racist to be racist, and of course they do not self identify as racist so they can't be, regardless of what they say.

You can really only sustain this belief if you believe that racism is pretty much over in America, that slavery and Jim Crow are far, far behind us and irrelevant to modern society. Once you see the structural aspects of modern racism, you realize that everybody is, at the very least, complicit in it. That's a pretty hard realization, and one that some people run away from and refuse to acknowledge rather than dealing with it.
posted by zug at 9:53 PM on September 6, 2016 [20 favorites]

So it seems Russian hackers have now released further DCCC emails, this time directly to the Observer. If you're keeping score at home, that means the foreign government asked by the Republican nominee to hack his opponent has done so and released the info to the paper owned by said nominee's son-in-law, who has published a story smearing said opponent.

The emails - alas for the Trump/Russian conspirators - seem a nothing burger.
posted by chris24 at 9:54 PM on September 6, 2016 [57 favorites]

I totally stole that for my Facebook page, sebastienbailard.

I swiped it from a vaguely remembered imgur post.
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:57 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

You can really only sustain this belief if you believe that racism is pretty much over in America, that slavery and Jim Crow are far, far behind us and irrelevant to modern society.

And, you can really only believe that if you never, ever have to listen to people of color or consider their needs or lives or basic humanity. Which has been relatively easy to sustain for white people over the past, I dunno, fifty years or so, and now suddenly it's not. They are starting to have to listen to our definition of racism, instead of their own stupid made-up shifting-goalposts burning-crosses one, and it's not pretty.
posted by sunset in snow country at 10:01 PM on September 6, 2016 [30 favorites]

What is Trump going to do next? Say the 14 words verbatim? Talk about this great Protocols book that explains everything? Steal an elementary school kid's lunch money? Fly to France and kick their prime minister in the balls?

Who knows? It's so exciting! Just like reality TV!
posted by double block and bleed at 10:21 PM on September 6, 2016 [6 favorites]

The emails - alas for the Trump/Russian conspirators - seem a nothing burger.

Was this supposed to be Assange's October surprise?
posted by sebastienbailard at 10:22 PM on September 6, 2016

Person said 'So your calling me a bigot etc etc etc.?'

Me with a shrug 'I guess so.'

Person literally teared up, they were so upset and worked up about the whole thing. It was surreal.

The public school year starts up tomorrow here in Seattle. I teach as a substitute -- less these years, now that I'm mostly a stay-at-home writer, but I still keep my status active. I still work for teachers and classrooms I like. My credential fields are social studies and language arts, but as a sub you can wind up anywhere. All I care about is sticking to the high schools.

This is a very liberal town. 10+ years of teaching in this area says the kids are overwhelmingly left-leaning (like holy shit wow). They all know racism is bad, though like adults they often don't see their own racial biases. And for all this town's liberal attitudes, there will be Trump supporters. Quiet, probably, but they'll be there.

Inevitably, kids will ask me how I'm voting. The ones who know me know I'm not afraid to speak my mind. They really like that I speak plainly and honestly and don't put on a "teacher voice" or water things down for them. They know my approach to political bias is to make mine plain and let them filter as they will.

I can tell them I'm voting for Clinton, sure, and that I think she's the most qualified. But if the conversation goes beyond that? I don't see how I can say anything other than, "You don't have to be a bigot to support Trump, but you have to be okay with bigotry and that's basically the same thing. The same goes for torture, and misogyny, and the list goes on."

I don't know how that's gonna fly with parents or administrators. But thank god teaching is no longer my primary income.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:27 PM on September 6, 2016 [43 favorites]

I remember my first Tehund favorite.

I remember my first Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks favorite.
posted by y2karl at 10:51 PM on September 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

My niece won her class presidential election last week. Her opponent was a loudmouth who did double duty as the class clown & bully. She told me she hadn't planned on going negative, but he attacked her first. In addition, he was making too many promises, too many jokes, and really didn't seem to have a good grasp on what the class president does. Despite not being particularly popular, my niece won. She thinks it was mostly on the basis of her mocking his frequent mistakes in grammar. If any Clinton staffer is reading this, I hope you'll encourage this tactic in the debate. Really can't lose with it.

So, I bought her a "Madame President" leather-ish notebook from the campaign store in the hope this class election is a good omen for both Clinton and my niece's political futures.

On a side note, she tells me that probably half the class supports Clinton. The other half dislikes both candidates. Most supported Sanders in the primary. Only one student is stridently pro-Trump and another one is quietly so. This is in a small Kansas town which generally goes 75-25 for the R in presidential years.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:55 PM on September 6, 2016 [37 favorites]

During the 2008 campaign, remember when McCain wanted to meet with Obama at the Whote House I forget why but when things started getting weird, Bush turned to Pelosi and said: "you guys are going to miss me". Pelosi had to contain her laugh.

The October suprise is going to be Obama.
Shovel ready and gearing to go. And if all goes well, he can do the Howard Taft thing.
posted by clavdivs at 11:34 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wouldn't worry too much that all the generals get the 88 thing. I'd never heard of it before I married a guy who did antifa and he started pointing out street tattoos.
posted by corb at 11:54 PM on September 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

So it seems Russian hackers have now released further DCCC emails, this time directly to the Observer.

Owned by Trump's son-in-law. What a coincidence.
posted by PenDevil at 12:02 AM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump Living Large on Donors' Dime

HuffPost follows the money through "a pattern of needless spending" since the Trump campaign gained access to RNC donor funds, in which the main beneficiaries are Trump businesses (and whoever supplies the jet fuel for that 757).

Trump’s preference for expensive venues that he happens to own has also extended to his campaign airplane: his 25-year-old 757 jetliner that, thanks to its older, less efficient engines, burns some $10,000 in fuel every hour.
...

Both anti-Trump Republicans and RNC members supporting Trump said most GOP donors probably don’t know the details about how Trump’s campaign is spending their money. “I think they’re only vaguely aware,” said Florida strategist Rick Wilson. “It’s Putinesque.”

posted by valetta at 12:22 AM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

They want to have the positions without any stigma or repercussions.

They love that "Alt-Right" rebranding, too. It makes them feel all new and progressive even when they're talking exactly like their bigoted ol' granddaddies used to talk. I'm waiting for them to try "k³" or something on us.
posted by pracowity at 1:31 AM on September 7, 2016 [27 favorites]

HuffPost follows the money through "a pattern of needless spending" since the Trump campaign gained access to RNC donor funds, in which the main beneficiaries are Trump businesses (and whoever supplies the jet fuel for that 757).

Why are no Republicans shouting about this? Does the GOP really not see that they've been played for suckers?
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Why are no Republicans shouting about this? Does the GOP really not see that they've been played for suckers?

Because, to put it mildly, the party is probably well aware that a) it's happening and b) that it's pissing away the last hopes of victory to call their own candidate a grifter.
posted by jaduncan at 2:12 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why are no Republicans shouting about this? Does the GOP really not see that they've been played for suckers?

Many of the PACs and organisations that target the GOP electorate are little more than mail fraud, including allegedly Ben Carson's entire presidential campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if some want to get in on the action at some point.
posted by PenDevil at 2:17 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

Why are no Republicans shouting about this? Does the GOP really not see that they've been played for suckers?

I imagine there are some lively conversations going on behind closed doors. Sadly, we might have to wait for the post-election blood-letting for them to be made public.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 2:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

How to Talk to a Trump Voter Who Is Wearing Headphones [satire, obvs]
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

we might have to wait for the post-election blood-letting for them to be made public…

That’d assuming Trump loses, of course, although the polls are doing my head in at the moment. I have a certain morbid curiosity: is there any polling situation which would flush out, say, John McCain? It’s bad enough to endorse Trump through gritted teeth when you don’t think he’s going to win. But if, god forbid, Trump was two points ahead with three weeks to go… would any of these people be willing to publicly reverse their positions? Or having debased themselves by endorsing him in the first place, do they feel they have to follow it through to the bitter end?
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 2:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

That’d assuming Trump loses, of course, although the polls are doing my head in at the moment. I have a certain morbid curiosity: is there any polling situation which would flush out, say, John McCain? It’s bad enough to endorse Trump through gritted teeth when you don’t think he’s going to win. But if, god forbid, Trump was two points ahead with three weeks to go… would any of these people be willing to publicly reverse their positions? Or having debased themselves by endorsing him in the first place, do they feel they have to follow it through to the bitter end?

Unofficial rule: nobody retracts if the candidate looks like a winner. It's much more likely to happen when nobody will blame the people retracting for the candidate's loss.
posted by jaduncan at 3:52 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I’m assuming that this isn’t a typical election, and that there are a lot of Republicans who really don’t want Trump to be president, perhaps even to the point where it would outweigh all the normal calculations. Or maybe that’s giving them too much credit.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 4:25 AM on September 7, 2016

I think the rule largely holds this year even in the face of Trump. Example: Marco Rubio promptly rescinding almost all of his criticism of Trump and endorsing voting for him. In other unrelated news news, Rubio is running to get a seat again.

Really this cycle has killed any remaining respect I had for the Republican party as an organisation. "Not racist, but #1 with racists."
posted by jaduncan at 4:33 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oh yes, college. Where morality is learned. 🙄
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:36 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Well, hopefully where history and basic science facts and critical thinking are learned.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Those who have it good/okay and are saying WE MUST HAVE CHANGE?

I suspect that a lot of the motivation is the belief that (as discussed above) those who should be below them shouldn't be anywhere near them in opportunities or resources. The potential loss is being the unquestioned masters of the universe as earned by their naturally better hard work and virtue - of course it's unfair that those that haven't suffered or worked as much get the reward. So, you know, let's stop helping them and start punishing them.

Personal note: The one time I've ever had a glimpse into that world view was when the rules changed one academic year later in a way that would have saved me over $8000 the previous year. Did I have a moment of irritation and jealousy of the next year's students? Yeah, embarrassingly I did. Would I want other people to have a hard time as a result? No, and that's where I think that I (and, from the sound of it, we) differ from that crowd. I'm unwilling to endorse a polity based on malice based on my own occasional regrets and opportunities I didn't have. I hope that other people have more instead, and I'm happier with myself and the world with that generosity of spirit. Really, I'd hope that the core of left wing belief is sharing opportunity and the promotion of equality.
posted by jaduncan at 4:50 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump losing Texas and winning Ohio and/or Wisconsin makes sense to me. The people most scared of immigration aren't anywhere near the border. Let's hear what Carl Diggler thinks.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:50 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, hopefully where history and basic science facts and critical thinking are learned

Or where you meet people who didn't grow up like you grew up and you get a hint that there might be actual people living actual lives outside of your tiny bubble of awareness.
posted by phunniemee at 4:51 AM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

Or, to add to that, the masters of the universe that they doubtlessly would be if other/Other people hadn't been given unfair advantages. Believe me folks, they get it all whilst laughing at real Americans like you. [etc., ad nauseam]
posted by jaduncan at 4:52 AM on September 7, 2016

Well, hopefully where history and basic science facts and critical thinking are learned.

To be more sincere, going to college doesn't make you a good person. That comment was snobby bullshit.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:53 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

To be more sincere, going to college doesn't make you a good person.

Hang on, I don't think the "college people wouldn't vote for Trump" was a judgement of good/bad, but rather a question of educated/uneducated.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:57 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

The Dallas Morning News yesterday not only didn't endorse and railed against the Republican nominee for the first time since '64 and Goldwater, today they endorsed Clinton, the first time they've endorsed a Democrat in over 75 years.
posted by chris24 at 4:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [73 favorites]

As someone who teaches at the college level, and, at least attempts to teach critical thinking when I'm teaching Statistics, let me point out that critical thinking is easy to do on subjects you care nothing about. But critical thinking in areas that define you and are close to your soul - students tend to resist that.
posted by wittgenstein at 5:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

rather a question of educated/uneducated.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:57 AM on 9/7

Yah but that isn't why people vote for things. Don't think angrycat meant to be a snob but that's what was said. Voting for Trump is morally wrong and plenty of educated people will do it because education doesn't make you not racist.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:02 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

To be more sincere, going to college doesn't make you a good person.

One would hope it improved critical thinking skills at the bare minimum. You aren't magically better just because you can see through bullshit, you're just less likely to fall for bullshit and terrible quality arguments. I would argue that this is likely to lead to disliking Trump.
posted by jaduncan at 5:02 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yah but that isn't why people vote for things. Don't think angrycat meant to be a snob but that's what was said. Voting for Trump is morally wrong and plenty of educated people will do it because education doesn't make you not racist.

Depends on your definition of plenty. The polling data is not exactly supporting your claim that it doesn't change things. As of Aug. 23:

In 2012 Mitt Romney beat Barack Obama by 14 points among college-educated whites, according to exit polls. The average of top national surveys shows Mr. Trump trailing Hillary Clinton among these voters by nine points, and the latest Pew Research Center survey gives Mrs. Clinton a 14-point edge.

The base of Trump's support isn't college educated even amongst the white, since Clinton is leading there (and that's not even shooting fish in a barrel by looking at the numbers with PoC college grads). Does that mean other voters are morally bad? No, maybe just informed by different information, research skills and life experience. It does however mean that not voting Trump is significantly predicted by education level, and given the relatively vacuous bullshit that he comes out with that doesn't surprise me.
posted by jaduncan at 5:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Those 30 "new" Benghazi emails supposedly found last week? Only 1 was new, and it was a flattering email from a diplomat on her Senate testimony. #nothingburger
posted by chris24 at 5:24 AM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

Those 30 "new" Benghazi emails supposedly found last week? Only 1 was new, and it was a flattering email from a diplomat on her Senate testimony. #nothingburger

Sigh. And yet yesterday, Fox News (in the breakroom at work) had a piece running along the lines of "New Clinton emails show Benghazi investigation may have been tampered with"

Is this over yet.
posted by Twain Device at 5:29 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

New AZ poll out this morning from the Arizona Republic: Clinton 35.1% vs Trump 33.6% in a 4 way race.

When pressed for who the undecideds are leaning, it's Clinton 40% vs. Trump 37%.

So Clinton up 1.5 - 3% in a typically red state.
posted by chris24 at 5:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

Miss me yet?

Not even for a nanosecond. Your unmitigated disaster of two presidential terms sill reeks with the stench of malcompetence, chaos, greed, and cruelty. May your demise go a long way towards justice for those you've wronged.

Ass.
posted by petebest at 5:39 AM on September 7, 2016 [36 favorites]

House GOP leader vows punishment coming for Democrats over gun sit-in

"There are numerous rules that were broken. That's not the way a democracy works and I think you will see appropriate measure taken in the very near future," McCarthy told reporters in the Capitol, adding, "Are you going to let the House stand with that behavior going forward? I think it would create real damage to the reputation of the House in the long term."

House Republican leaders are discussing several options as potential penalties, including voting on a resolution that condemns the sit-in or leveling fines for rule violations, according to a senior GOP leadership aide familiar with the discussions.

LOL at the " real damage to the reputation of the House."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:39 AM on September 7, 2016 [30 favorites]

education doesn't make you not racist.

It does, but only if education=learning and not rote memorization of test answers. STEM subjects may not apply. For more information, consult your local library.
posted by petebest at 5:43 AM on September 7, 2016

Voting for Trump is morally wrong and plenty of educated people will do it because education doesn't make you not racist.

There seems to be a difference in underlying assumptions here... If you assume the only reason someone would vote for Trump is because they are morally bad, then yeah it sounds like an insult to say people without a college education can be expected to be more likely to vote for Trump.

But I don't assume that. I think most people who are voting for Trump are decent, probably kind and generous to their family and friends, including people of different races and immigrants they know personally, but have a fundamentally incorrect understanding of the world. They think people who have historically had more success in our society have had it because they deserve it and worked hard for it.

I would hope that college would help correct that misunderstanding of American history. And also give you enough quantitative reasoning skills to understand that the "wall" is completely impractical and that global warming is a real threat, and immigrant murderers are not, etc.

I think it is very possible for Good People to do terrible things because they (or we) just don't understand the causes of the problems in the world or the effects of the actions they/we want to take in response. Terrible people are not required to cause atrocities. Just terrible ideas.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

A little late to the party, but I wanted to share this helpful instructional video on the topic of calling a white person racist.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

One would hope it [college] improved critical thinking skills at the bare minimum.

In some categories, studies show the college-educated more likely to be victims of fraud than others, if we're talking about the sort of critical thinking skills that would help avoid getting scammed; whereas some times it just matches the population. For example:

Investment fraud victims (p=.000) and business opportunity fraud victims (p=.000) were significantly more likely to have a college education than the general population. Lottery fraud victims (p=.000) and prescription drug/identity theft fraud victims (p=.000) were significantly less likely to have a college education than the general population. Advance fee loan fraud victims (p=.380) were similar to the general population.

Correlation, causation, etc.

The WSJ article is paywalled for me but a 14-point lead should still mean that around 43% of those surveyed supported Trump. The two most ardent and active Trump supporters I know are both college educated women, one with a Masters' degree.
posted by XMLicious at 5:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

New book reveals Bill Clinton’s rogue diplomacy against the Iraq War (WaPost)

This article I think highlights how much we make assumptions when we look at the votes of someone like Hillary Clinton and assume that we know what they mean. In this case, people cite her vote for the Iraq war as evidence of either her hawkishness or her bad judgement (i.e., her inability to figure out what was really going on). But I have always considered her vote to be a political calculation based on her presidential ambitions. I think she knew she was going to run for President and made a political decision that voting for the war was going to be important for that. She chose wrong.

Of course, in some ways that makes the vote worse rather than better. Making political calculations with people's lives is not a good thing to do, although it is something that politicians at that level are required to do. But it does suggest that the narrative of Clinton being unable to figure things out, or being hawkish and cavalier about US military involvement is likely wrong.
posted by OmieWise at 5:57 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

A little late to the party, but I wanted to share this helpful instructional video

Never too late for five minutes that great.
posted by kingless at 5:59 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Uh, how does it suggest that Clinton is not cavalier about US military involvement if starting a decade-long war that killed a quarter of a million people and both created ISIS and turned over a chunk of the Middle East to Iranian control, was an acceptable risk to safeguard her future personal political career... the scenario you're positing definitely sounds like it falls under the category of making her look worse.
posted by XMLicious at 6:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

But I have always considered her vote to be a political calculation based on her presidential ambitions.

Where is there any evidence for this? Why is it SO IMPOSSIBLE to believe her own explanation for why she did it?
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [43 favorites]

chris24: New AZ poll out this morning from the Arizona Republic: Clinton 35.1% vs Trump 33.6% in a 4 way race. When pressed for who the undecideds are leaning, it's Clinton 40% vs. Trump 37%.

Best news to wake up to!
I'm going to try not to get weepy on the phones tonight.
posted by Superplin at 6:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Best news to wake up to!
I'm going to try not to get weepy on the phones tonight.

Hey, good luck on the phones! Gotta be nice working on a realistic chance of turning AZ blue.
posted by chris24 at 6:12 AM on September 7, 2016

With General Boykin coming out in support of Trump, I can bring back my theory of recent history: It's all Boykin.

General William G. Boykin advised on the Waco raid.
He was in charge of troops at the Black Hawk Down incident.
He participated in the failed raid in 1980 to rescue the American hostages in Iran.
He helped lead the disastrous raid on Panama in 1989.
He advised on how to make Abu Ghraib more like Guantanamo.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:13 AM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

It's all Boykin.

He's the Bill Kristol of the Army?
posted by chris24 at 6:15 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

A little late to the party, but I wanted to share this helpful instructional video yt on the topic of calling a white person racist.
posted by soren

I went to BERKELEY!!!! (Lol)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:17 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Why are no Republicans shouting about this? Does the GOP really not see that they've been played for suckers?

Filter effect. It's alllllll over my Republican Twitter.
posted by corb at 6:17 AM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

All politicians calculate their decisions wrt future ambitions.

Must be awesome to see into the hearts and souls of, like, thousands and thousands of individual humans. Does this power only extend to politicians or can you also discern the motivations of people in other careers? Bus drivers? Can you tell me why the school bus driver in front of me stopped dead in the middle of an intersection for no reason for like 3 minutes this morning?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:19 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Brendan James at the Daily Dot: Anti-Trump Conservatives Keep Getting Trapped in Elevators
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:20 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Circling back to an issue I've mentioned before, one thing I don't get about Trump's support among educated and well-informed whites (including the luminaries of his own party) is the issue of competence. If the job of the President was just appointing Supreme Court Justices and vetoing legislation, then, sure, go nuts with finding yourself a partisan toady. But there's kind of a lot more to the job than that; at the end of the day, they're the first word in implementation of American policy and the primary voice for America in the international sphere. That requires someone mentally agile, seasoned by experience in government, and well-informed. Donald Trump is none of these and is stubbornly incurious about the last. This stuff is apparent to anybody paying attention.

So I get that different people have different points of view. I can even get that some people have points of view I find wholly alien and repugnant. What I don't get is that these people have decided that having a representative who shares these points of view is more important than actually being able to do the job in a way which keeps America from falling apart.

I have no love for the likes of Senators Flake and Sasse, but I have to respect the fact that they've consistently articulated a nonpartisan objection to their party's standard-bearer: that he is incapable of discharging the job and would do immeasurable damage to America's abilities both domestically and internationally.
posted by jackbishop at 6:25 AM on September 7, 2016 [28 favorites]

The Republicans have spent so much time convincing themselves that the government is intrinsically useless that it's impossible for them to care as a group about whether their candidates are competent or not. What does it matter, when you believe that what the President should be doing is nothing at all?
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:27 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Meanwhile in the Green Party...

Russian Greens slam Stein for cozying up to Putin: Your silence on his crimes ‘silences our struggle’:

“By silencing Putin’s crimes you are silencing our struggle. By shaking his hand and failing to criticize his regime you are becoming his accomplice. By forgetting what international solidarity means you are insulting the Russian environmental movement,” they concluded, before asking for Stein to address their situation, saying they hoped, “our questions will not go unanswered,” by the Green Party presidential nominee.

According to the Green Party, the plea has been forwarded to Stein, with spokesperson Scott McLarty saying, “I think the letter exaggerates Dr. Stein’s alleged deference to President Putin.”

posted by palindromic at 6:28 AM on September 7, 2016 [22 favorites]

Why is it SO IMPOSSIBLE to believe her own explanation for why she did it?

That's a great article, and enlightening. Thank you. If the political world wasn't focusing on silly shit half the time in this election season, we could be having an adult conversation that included unpacking articles like this and coming up with a coherent version of history.
posted by cashman at 6:28 AM on September 7, 2016 [20 favorites]

Regarding Trump's competence: I'm seeing a fair number of conservatives talk about the presidency like it's just a pen and a teleprompter, with all the real work happening in congress. Like this conversation I overheard at the airport:

Waffling Trump Supporter: I like him, but I don't know how he'll do running the government
True Believer: What is there to run? Congress does everything. Look at Obama, he didn't get anything done because Congress was against him.
Waffling Supporter: Yeah, I guess you're right

That argument is bullshit, obviously. But if you're looking to justify voting for Trump, it's a way to avoid having to worry about his competence.
posted by Banknote of the year at 6:34 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Clinton camp fires back: We have 95 retired general, admiral endorsements
Including the prized endorsement of Retired Air Force Gen. Lloyd "Fig" Newton.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:36 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

don't go Santorum on me

Phrasing!
posted by Strange Interlude at 6:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]

thanks to its older, less efficient engines, burns some $10,000 in fuel every hour.

The funny thing is that the old, unscripted Trump already covered this in one of his extended riffs that connected Obama bombing ISIS to Donald's hairspray. That the king of projection took the effort to criticize air force one, it make me think that his plane must be a gas guzzler.

No, this is serious. Now think of it. He talks about the carbon footprint and yet he will fly a very old Air Force one, an old Boeing 747, with the old engines and you know, spewing stuff.

So, he’s got a problem with the carbon footprint. You can’t use hair spray because hair spray is going to affect the ozone. I’m trying to figure out. Let’s see, I’m in my room in New York City and I want to put a little spray so that I can — (laughter and applause) — right? Right?

Anyhow, searching for that quote led me to this bit of perfection: “Buying a 25-year-old 757 is like buying a bag of Cheetos. It’s a lot of food for a low price,”
posted by peeedro at 6:48 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

In retrospect, of course, these final words seem the height of naïveté. Bush did take the resolution as “a vote to rush to war.” And, of course, it turned out that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction or even an active WMD program—though it’s worth recalling that almost everyone, including many opponents of the war, believed he did. (Vice President Dick Cheney and his allies in the Pentagon cherry-picked the intelligence that seemingly supported that conclusion, but it’s clear in retrospect that even they believed Iraq had WMDs, even if the CIA, which they distrusted, was having a hard time locating them.)

[citation needed]
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:49 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Orlando Sentinel's Scott Maxwell follows the previously posted 8,491 pages raise more flags about Bondi's Trump money with New records show Bondi needs probing in Trump mess:

If Floridians want action, they should speak up. But it may be up to the U.S. Justice Department.

I understand that the media fascination with this case involves the Trump side of the equation. Especially since Trump has bragged about being able to buy politicians.

But you can like Trump and still know it's wildly inappropriate for a prosecutor to take money from someone she's been asked to probe.

Besides, the Trump media circus will soon move on to the next outrage, gaffe or accusation du jour.

Floridians, meanwhile, will still be stuck with an attorney general who thinks it's OK to take fat campaign checks from would-be subjects of her office’s investigations.

posted by palindromic at 6:49 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

So this so-called "commander in chief" forum is tonight. If you're Hillary, going first, what do you do? And by that, I mean knowing that Trump is going to be able to hear what you say, then come behind you after you're done and probably say some ridiculous things.
posted by cashman at 6:53 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Some Trump apologist on MSNBC was gas lighting and the fucking host did nothing. She's useless! Just let him get away with bullshit unchallenged!
posted by Talez at 6:54 AM on September 7, 2016

Clinton camp fires back: We have 95 retired general, admiral endorsements

What is 95 code for?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:57 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

The 747s (747-200B derived) that currently are Air Force One are due for replacement. I shudder to think how a Trump administration could affect that process.
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:57 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some Trump apologist on MSNBC was gas lighting

Ah, I see you've met Boris Epshteyn.
posted by cashman at 6:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

> You can’t use hair spray because hair spray is going to affect the ozone. I’m trying to figure out. Let’s see, I’m in my room in New York City and I want to put a little spray so that I can — (laughter and applause) — right? Right?

It's weird that Trump is unaware that hair spray still exists.

Or that he thinks his audience is unaware that hair spray still exists.

Or that he knows it exists but says it doesn't, despite his audience knowing full well that it does, because he and they are still mad about a U.S. CFC ban that happened in 19fucking78.

we're going to be hearing about incandescent lights for the next fifty years, aren't we? fuck.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

For those of you concerned that you haven't been hearing more Republican denunciations of Trump, I give you a Jonah Goldberg on the Trumpen Proletariat.

Every principle used to defend Trump is subjective, graded on a curve. Trump is like a cat trained to piss in a human toilet. It’s amazing! It’s remarkable! Yes, yes, it is: for a cat. But we don’t judge humans by the same standard.

posted by corb at 6:59 AM on September 7, 2016 [47 favorites]

Ugh, sorry guys - it's old, and I forgot to check the year, just the date. I'll find some more stuff once I've gotten the kidlet off to school.
posted by corb at 7:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The 747s (747-200B derived) that currently are Air Force One are due for replacement. I shudder to think how a Trump administration could affect that process.

Gold plating, gold plated everything.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some Trump apologist on MSNBC was gas lighting and the fucking host did nothing. She's useless! Just let him get away with bullshit unchallenged!

That host opened her segment by being like "it's nasty jabs back and forth! Is ANYONE winning this thing?"
posted by zutalors! at 7:02 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel like they wrote those "jab" talking points as soon as Trump became the nominee.
posted by zutalors! at 7:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

less than 3% difference in the national polls according to 538. maybe the tactics of demonizing and dismissing half the country aren't working so well?
posted by andrewcooke at 7:08 AM on September 7, 2016

Julia Azari at 538: Trump May Bring A Republican Recalibration, Not A Realignment:

Conventional accounts of party systems argue that issues of governing philosophy and the country’s relationship with England informed the first party system. The second was driven by different visions of executive power, the proper role of the federal government in “internal improvements” (building and regulating roads and other infrastructure), and central banking. The transition from second to third party system is especially notable in this regard: The Jacksonian Democrats and Whigs were both competitive throughout the North and South, and both parties carried a range of viewpoints about slavery. In the third party system, the two parties became much more clearly sorted by geography (though this was not the only flashpoint). The fourth party system saw new issues emerge in response to industrialization, with Democratic platforms revised around populism and currency. The fifth, “New Deal” system built up a new Democratic majority around a new, more active approach to governing the economy. The civil rights era brought about a permanent change in the parties’ coalitions around race issues.

If this sounds too neat to you, you’re not alone. Sean Trende of RealClearPolitics has written, “it’s like looking for Jesus in your grilled cheese sandwich. If you stare long enough and hard enough, you will eventually find what you are looking for.” Distinguished political scientist David Mayhew1 found little evidence for most of the central claims of the realignment literature. Mayhew concludes that long-term electoral change of the kind that realignment theory describes is quite uncommon. Cyclical theories of party politics also neglect the importance of what scholars like to call “contingent events” (I think normal people just call them “events”) — scandals, economic fluctuations, wars — that drive the issue agenda and shape politics in the long and short term. But despite these critiques, the idea of realignment remains powerful.

So why do people think it’s going to happen this year? First and foremost: Trump.

posted by palindromic at 7:09 AM on September 7, 2016

less than 3% difference in the national polls according to 538. maybe the tactics of demonizing and dismissing half the country aren't working so well?

Wait, I thought the problem was that Hillary was being too nice to Republicans and not trying to tie them to Trump.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 7:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Interesting bit from an old keepin it 1600 that I listened to this morning. They were talking with Chuck Todd and they, the hosts and Todd, all agreed that for substance and voter information Forums were far above Debates because there is no pointless jabbing and posturing. There will be soundbites but for the most part by keeping the two nominees separate you get a better sense of who they are and what they stand for.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:14 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

don't go Santorum on me
let me get you a towel.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:18 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fox & Friends has their pulse on the important stories the rest of the media won't cover
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:30 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

let me get you a towel.

If your bare skin comes in contact with santorum, please wash thoroughly.
posted by jaduncan at 7:30 AM on September 7, 2016

> "less than 3% difference in the national polls according to 538. maybe the tactics of demonizing and dismissing half the country aren't working so well?"

If there's less than 3% difference in the national polls, it sounds like the tactics of demonizing and dismissing half the country are working quite well indeed.
posted by kyrademon at 7:31 AM on September 7, 2016 [23 favorites]

Oh yay! Assange wants his fifteen minutes of fame to continue. So he's released a collection of properly authored classified information with headers, footers, and partition marks on every paragraph and is claiming that because Clinton didn't recognise an out of context (C) on an unclassified document as being a partition mark she must be lying.
posted by Francis at 7:39 AM on September 7, 2016

I remember my first Tehund favorite.

Maybe the reason Tehund is taking so long to get caught up is that they will only go until they run out of favorites each day? So the more worth reading the thread is, the longer it will take them. Kind of like a Zeno's paradox for Metafilter.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:40 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

For those of you concerned that you haven't been hearing more Republican denunciations of Trump, I give you a Jonah Goldberg on the Trumpen Proletariat.

Ah, yes, Jonah Goldberg, who once wrote a book complaining that it's liberals who are the real fascists. Good times.

(I note with sadness that I used to have trouble spelling "fascists" and now, thanks to today's Republican Party, have no difficulty.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:41 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

House Republican leaders are discussing several options as potential penalties, including voting on a resolution that condemns the sit-in or leveling fines for rule violations, according to a senior GOP leadership aide familiar with the discussions.

media: Oh no there are some white conservatives and they're coming at you they might CENSURE you are you so worried?!?!?

John Lewis (D, Georgia): i think i'll be ok
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:41 AM on September 7, 2016 [31 favorites]

Since it's still a slow news day (he says while glancing nervously at the other browser tabs), let me just put this out there as an example of how Trump is playing out in our local neighborhood, an oasis of liberal blue in a sea of rural red:

N.Y. College Republicans Rally Behind Cornell Chapter, Say Revocation Violated Federation’s Constitution

A string of college Republican chapters across New York State has issued statements denouncing the state federation’s decision to revoke its recognition of the Cornell Republicans on Sunday.

The decision to revoke Cornell’s chapter came in the wake of the group’s endorsement of Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson — an action the New York Federation of College Republicans called “unacceptable.” The federation said that while the group would have been within its rights to refuse to endorse nominee Donald Trump, it could not endorse another party’s candidate, The Sun previously reported.
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:43 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Donald Trump contradicts Mexican president on not paying for wall: ‘He didn’t say that’:

In a new interview with ABC News, Donald Trump's recollection appears to differ with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto’s account of their meeting last week when it comes to a key subject: Whether Peña Nieto actually said that Mexico wouldn’t pay for Trump’s proposed border wall.

Annotated interview
posted by kirkaracha at 7:43 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

House Republican leaders are discussing several options as potential penalties, including voting on a resolution that condemns the sit-in or leveling fines for rule violations, according to a senior GOP leadership aide familiar with the discussions.

Do the Republicans really want to refresh the public's memory about how embarrassing this incident was for them?
posted by Gelatin at 7:44 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Tacos have a +36 net favorability with 47% of voters seeing them positively to 11% with a negative view.“
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:58 AM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

For those of you concerned that you haven't been hearing more Republican denunciations of Trump, I give you a Jonah Goldberg on the Trumpen Proletariat.

Dear Reader (if there are any of you left),

lmao

BEHOLD THE TRUMPEN PROLETARIAT

is the heading of a section which gives the impression that the Trumpen Proletariat is just the Breitbart commentator John Nolte, whose display name is currently "CNN is Hitler."

If I sound dismayed, it’s only because I am. Conservatives have spent more than 60 years arguing that ideas and character matter.

The ideas of Richard Nixon, the character of Augusto Pinochet ... a movement we can be proud of ...

I agree that presidents don’t need to be experts on everything. But they do need to do their homework. This is a standard I’ve held for years:

"Like when I wrote a book arguing that the French Revolution was the first fascist revolution."

Karl Marx coined the term lumpenproletariat to describe working-class people who could never relinquish their class consciousness and embrace the idea of a classless socialist society. Hence, they were useless to the revolutionary cause.

lum·pen·pro·le·tar·i·at - n. - (especially in Marxist terminology) the unorganized and unpolitical lower orders of society who are not interested in revolutionary advancement.

lol at this whole article
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 8:01 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Or that he knows it exists but says it doesn't, despite his audience knowing full well that it does, because he and they are still mad about a U.S. CFC ban that happened in 19fucking78.

I'm not much surprised that people held onto that so long; I remember commenting to someone in the 90s that my shaving cream can had a proud CFC-FREE label on it and why was I supposed to care that they were still complying with a decades-old requirement? I'm too lazy to walk upstairs but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still on the label. A quick google reveals that it was still on some hairsprays in 2009.
posted by phearlez at 8:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm betting that the 11% with a negative view of tacos have only known the hard-shelled bullshit.
posted by rp at 8:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who the fuck are the 43% of voters who lack strong opinions on tacos
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:05 AM on September 7, 2016 [23 favorites]

hard-shell tacos are just tostadas that can't get their shit together
posted by murphy slaw at 8:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]

The ABC News interview is a joint interview with Trump and Pence sitting next to each other. During the interview Pence refers to Trump as "Donald Trump" at least 20 times by my count. "Donald Trump is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life." fake
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 8:08 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm betting that the 11% with a negative view of tacos have only known the hard-shelled bullshit.

I'd like to see the age and birth-region demographic breakdowns. For a lot of midwesterners over 70 or so, mexican and chinese food are both the same thing to them: a bunch of rice and strange smells.
posted by dis_integration at 8:08 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who the fuck are the 43% of voters who lack strong opinions on tacos

In some parts of the country, it can be very hard to acquire tacos, or the ones you acquire are...not good. Even in 2016! It's sad, really. It's possibly the only reason I stayed in Texas.
posted by emjaybee at 8:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Who the fuck are the 43% of voters who lack strong opinions on tacos

They are the people who keep Old El Paso in business.
posted by dersins at 8:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

> The whole interview is like that.

You should have put on a [Real] label, because this is a literally unbelievable transcript. I had to click through, and yeah, it's really what he said.

HOW???
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:19 AM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

TPM: Trump Has 'No Idea' If His Birtherism Hurt Him With Black Voters
posted by palindromic at 8:20 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump contradicts Mexican president on not paying for wall: ‘He didn’t say that’:

To be fair Peña Nieto didn't actually say "Mexico will not pay for the wall".

He said "México no pagará por la pared."
posted by mazola at 8:22 AM on September 7, 2016 [19 favorites]

You should have put on a [Real] label, because this is a literally unbelievable transcript. I had to click through, and yeah, it's really what he said.

HOW???

The most unbelievable thing was that he mentioned he was ahead in FL and OH and I was like "that can't be!" but then I looked and Reuters/Ipsos has him at 48% to 43% in Ohio now and I died a little. Not just inside. All over.
posted by dis_integration at 8:24 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

To be more sincere, going to college doesn't make you a good person. That comment was snobby bullshit.

Well, in some philosophy, one is born bad.
Learned that at university.
posted by clavdivs at 8:25 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

This Jacobin profile of Gary Johnson presents a candidate unworthy of leftie protest votes:

Former colleagues remember Johnson as an ideologue, sincerely committed to his project of dismantling government. “He made it very clear to me that by the time he graduated from third grade, he knew all there was to know about government,” said Raymond Sanchez, who was speaker of New Mexico’s House of Representatives for six years of Johnson’s tenure. “He tried to privatize everything he could think of — everything that was in reach.” By 2003, he had set the state record for vetoes, rejecting 739 bills passed by the Democratic legislature.

But he’s best remembered for the prisons. Johnson originally ran on a platform of privatizing every jail in the state — “that way,” he reasoned, “we’ll always have the latest and greatest and best.” His first budget proposal included $91 million for a new privately run state prison.

As Joseph T. Hallinan reports in his book on the US prison system, Going Up the River, Johnson accepted at least $9,000 in campaign donations from a prison company that ultimately won a state contract. By the time he left office, New Mexico led the country in for-profit prisons, housing 44 percent of its inmates in private facilities. Only Alaska, with 31 percent, came close.

posted by palindromic at 8:28 AM on September 7, 2016 [20 favorites]

I don't see where that comment was "snobby" or being about morality or being a "good person."
posted by zutalors! at 8:28 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The most unbelievable thing was that he mentioned he was ahead in FL and OH and I was like 'that can't be!' but then I looked and Reuters/Ipsos has him at 48% to 43% in Ohio now and I died a little.

Remain calm. Stop freaking out about individual polls.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:37 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

This Jacobin profile of Gary Johnson presents a candidate unworthy of leftie protest votes:

There is no way around this: if you are thinking of switching your vote from the Democrats to a Libertarian, you are an idiot. Either you are an idiot for ever voting Democrat or thinking of doing that, because you are so deeply opposed to things that are basic Democratic policies, or you are an idiot for switching to a Libertarian who is opposed to basic Democratic positions you agree with.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:38 AM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

More nonsense from that Trump transcript, to add to his long line of bonkers statements about technology:

I mean, she had her emails -- 33,000 emails -- acid washed. The most sophisticated person never heard about acid washing. Acid washing is a very expensive process and that’s to really get rid of them.

See, it's important to acid wash your emails so they get that nice, mid-80s denim look!

Incidentally, bleachbit is free and open source. It involves no acid. Trump, on the other hand, might need to ask his acid supplier if the latest batch was a bummer.
posted by dis_integration at 8:43 AM on September 7, 2016 [27 favorites]

Trump to Ask Generals, Who Know Less Than Trump, for Plan to Defeat ISIS:

So, first Trump claimed to have a secret plan to defeat ISIS. Then he said the generals knew less than he does. Now he will ask the people who know less about ISIS than Trump does to come up with the plan that has already existed for more than a year. If this sounds confusing to you, imagine how confused the enemy must be. It means Trump’s strategy is working.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

The whole interview is like that. Every one of his interviews is like that. I know that Trump's lack of competence isn't news, exactly, but it continues to astound me. Leaving aside whatever views he holds, he's simply not competent to be President.

He may not be competent to be president but he sure as hell can win the election with this strategy.

Trump has the virtue, mostly due to the media's hubris about the whole incredulousness of the American people actually electing a human cheeto for president, of being judged on the Trump curve. Mexico he literally sat there, said the lines, and didn't drool on himself and people said he looked presidential. Every dumb and hateful thing he's ever done is wiped clean every time he appears in public as a human being and the polls respond to that. Half the American electorate literally has the memory and attention span of a goldfish.

These interviews aren't to convince liberals to vote for him. They're a lost cause. This is giving people he may have turned off in the primary a license to vote for him again. He basically walks up to every group and says "I know what I said but I'll look after you, *wink*". He's intentionally vague so they can believe what they want to believe but also so nobody can hold him to it. Just keep bullshitting. Nobody can call you on all of it and all you need is one victory to hold it all together.

See Trump doesn't sell people on policy. He sells people on the man. He sells people on the action. He sells people on the decision in the moment when it really matters. He sells people on results. If he ever fucks it all up he can point to where he said what he wanted to do and it's all about intention rather than what actually happened and if anyone ever accuses him of incompetence he doesn't focus on the failure of execution and turns it immediately back to the original promise of the vision. Like he hasn't failed just temporarily stalled with a flat tyre on the way to point B.

This is a classic businessman thing. Your CEO doesn't have very much vision. Vision is hard. Vision leaves you open to fucking everything up. Vision leads to risks. CEOs let the middle managers and bean crunchers come up with a feasible plan with a high chance of success and will make everyone squillionaires. If someone complains about the company shitting the bed a CEO they have scapegoats and they make sure they get paid before the trustee comes in.

HRC is literally the exact opposite. She's a public servant. She's a wonk. She has detailed policies for everything for anything anyone has ever been mildly annoyed about. She's Leslie fucking Knope personified. But detailed plans are complicated. They require comprehension. But it looks the same as DJT's "plan" on his website and if his isn't a real plan neither is hers. People will go along with the illusion and Trump is ready to go along with it and tout a rally speech as a "plan" while the allied press happily grade Trump on the curve and call it a masterpiece of vision.

So yeah, this interview looks clumsy and inept but it's not for us. It's for all the people who need to consider Trump a lesser evil than Clinton.
posted by Talez at 8:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

Hey! Trump campaign is lifting his blacklist on media outlets tomorrow.

The so-called "blacklist" took hold last year, when the campaign denied press credential requests from The Huffington Post and the Des Moines Register.

The Daily Beast, BuzzFeed and Politico's credential requests were also rejected by the campaign. At various points Univision has also been blocked.

I'll bet they are all just weeping in relief.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

More nonsense from that Trump transcript, to add to his long line of bonkers statements about technology:

I mean, she had her emails -- 33,000 emails -- acid washed. The most sophisticated person never heard about acid washing. Acid washing is a very expensive process and that’s to really get rid of them.

I was trying to explain the insanity of the "bleaching" thing, which I first heard him say at the AZ rally, to my partner last night, after yesterday's "the cyber" comments. I just don't think I could even explain the utter, rabid nonsensicality to someone who hasn't heard any of it for herself. Thankfully for her, I listen so she doesn't have to.
posted by rp at 8:47 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

He may not be competent to be president but he sure as hell can win the election with this strategy.

How, given his demographic challenges?
posted by zutalors! at 8:49 AM on September 7, 2016

Trump still thinks they put Clinton's old phones in acid
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

How, given his demographic challenges?

If he can pull significant white male turnout in Ohio, PA and FL and WI, to win those states, and then not lose some other GOP strongholds, he could pull it off. Like this map, where I gave him FL, GA, AZ, OH, PA and WI, and 3 of Nebraska's split EVs, gets him to 271.
posted by dis_integration at 8:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump hasn't practiced a mock debate. He's still got shy of 3 weeks, I guess.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:56 AM on September 7, 2016

How, given his demographic challenges?

Honestly I don't know but Trump has lead in the aggregated polls at various points throughout the season so the fundamentals for making it happen are certainly there.

I didn't say he would only that he could.
posted by Talez at 8:59 AM on September 7, 2016

It's not impossible but it's kind of beyond any strategy at this point. it would be a sort of whimsical unprecendented one day mobilization of a certain voter demographic.
posted by zutalors! at 8:59 AM on September 7, 2016

The whole interview is like that. Every one of his interviews is like that. I know that Trump's lack of competence isn't news, exactly, but it continues to astound me. Leaving aside whatever views he holds, he's simply not competent to be President.

....Honestly, GW Bush's interviews in 2000 sounded that way to me.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump has lead in the aggregated polls at various points throughout the season

whenever those leads are tabbed through they have an overrepresentation of white voters.
posted by zutalors! at 9:01 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

GWB definitely knew he was in over his head though and listened to the people advising him. That was the flat out evil Cheney of course, but there was a strategy, unlike in Trump's case.
posted by zutalors! at 9:02 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

whimsical ... mobilization

Is that when you stick daisies in the gun barrels?
posted by achrise at 9:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think you're being too optimistic. Clinton's lead is down to like 2 points and the trendlines haven't stabilized. Trump doesn't have to solve his demographic challenges if 44% is a winning number because of third party voting.

whenever those leads are tabbed through they have an overrepresentation of white voters.

Romney hung his hat on this sort of thing and it didn't work out so well.
posted by Justinian at 9:03 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was considering placing a bet on Clinton winning. It has occurred to me that merely holding US dollars means that the bet is already on.
posted by jaduncan at 9:05 AM on September 7, 2016 [53 favorites]

It's not optimism, it's honestly realism. I think there is a real effort to minimize minority support and turnout, intentional or not.
posted by zutalors! at 9:05 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

whenever those leads are tabbed through they have an overrepresentation of white voters.

Overrepresentation according to what ground truth, though? We don't know who's going to show up on Election Day. We have likely voter models, but they're notoriously poor at predicting actual turnout
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

whenever those leads are tabbed through they have an overrepresentation of white voters.

I'm talking about the RCP aggregated polls not like the CNN bullshit poll with overrepresentation of the Republican electorate.
posted by Talez at 9:06 AM on September 7, 2016

Overrepresentation according to what ground truth, though?

Matched to previous turnout.
posted by zutalors! at 9:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

If he can pull significant white male turnout in Ohio, PA and FL and WI, to win those states, and then not lose some other GOP strongholds, he could pull it off. Like this map, where I gave him FL, GA, AZ, OH, PA and WI, and 3 of Nebraska's split EVs, gets him to 271.

See? All he has to do is win Wisconsin - where in 21 polls over the last year he's never led Clinton - and Pennsylvania, where in 29 polls over the last year he's led Clinton twice (October 2015 and the day after the RNC).

Romney hung his hat on this sort of thing and it didn't work out so well.

Romney hung his hat on the fact that, despite being behind Obama literally every day of the campaign, there were some unknown white voters that would pull it out for him. No, that hasn't worked out so well.
posted by one_bean at 9:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

I didn't see it posted earlier but has anyone listened to the New Yorker podcast interview with Johnson? I hadn't really heard his voice before, only read interviews with him. I think he comes off as a pompous ass. Maybe it's the anti self made successful businessman/libertarian bias that I do heartily admit to.
posted by readery at 9:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Miss me yet?

I don't care how bad goddamn Donald Trump gets, I will never miss the aging, disingenuous, ultimate-product-of-goodolboy-nepotism douchebro whose cynical administration actively set the stage for the current shitpile we're stuck with.
posted by aught at 9:09 AM on September 7, 2016 [31 favorites]

If he can pull significant white male turnout in Ohio, PA and FL and WI, to win those states, and then not lose some other GOP strongholds, he could pull it off. Like this map, where I gave him FL, GA, AZ, OH, PA and WI, and 3 of Nebraska's split EVs, gets him to 271.

You have Missouri going blue in this map? That's extremely unlikely.

I think this map is by far Trump's best path to victory. As you can see, he needs either Wisconsin or Pennsylvania in it, not both. Missouri is going red and I don't think there's much doubt about that. Nevada and Iowa are shaky at best though we can hope for high Latino turnout in Nevada.
posted by Justinian at 9:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

whenever those leads are tabbed through they have an overrepresentation of white voters

"Overrepresentation of white voters" is essentially his plan.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Overrepresentation of white voters + drive down Clinton's numbers with relentless ~~negative attacks~~ blatant lies. If enough young people vote third party it could tip the balance.
posted by Justinian at 9:12 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

BTW I don't think it's been mentioned, but by virtue of a coin toss, Clinton will go first in MSNBC's CinC Forum (8pm tonight, EDT)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:15 AM on September 7, 2016

It just doesn't make sense to say that I'm too "optimistic" or "head in the sand" or other jabs while trotting out really outlier possibilities in what the turnout might bring and ignoring historical models as "welp whatever might happen". If what I'm saying is somehow not grounded in reality than neither is what you are.
posted by zutalors! at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

If enough young people vote third party it could tip the balance.

Or enough old people.
posted by dersins at 9:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Except vice versa
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:17 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, sure, dersins. But third party candidates are polling at between 15 and 20% among 18-34 year olds and mid single digits among old people. Plus old people overwhelmingly support Trump so old folks going third party tends to help Clinton.
posted by Justinian at 9:18 AM on September 7, 2016

In order to get Federal Matching Funds for a campaign a party has to receive 5% of the vote in the previous election. Gary Johnson should play the long-game for his party, announcing that he will caucus with the Republicans if elected to try to siphon off Trump votes.
It's a win for the Libertarian party and best of all, it is a second front against Trump.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:18 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

You have Missouri going blue in this map? That's extremely unlikely.

Yeah I didn't notice that. 270towin puts MO blue when you first load it. I assume they do that based on some polling data, leaving toss-up states grey. Swap MO and WI there and you've still got a winning map for Trump.
posted by dis_integration at 9:19 AM on September 7, 2016

> Donald Trump hasn't practiced a mock debate.
That's absolutely true because he said so!

(ETA Trump's Razor, yeah, but still)
posted by farlukar at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2016

Trump has lead in the aggregated polls at various points throughout the season

Trump has never been in the lead according to Huffpost Pollster. Closest is a little over 2 points behind. Now he's 5% behind.

He has led once briefly by 1 point according to RealClearPolitics. He's currently 3% behind.
posted by chris24 at 9:26 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump speaking now, calls for ending the defense sequester, but reduction in the federal "bureaucracy" through "smart attrition". So basically the Ryan budget, military spending is always good, but anything else the government does should be ended, full stop. The 2011 debt ceiling deal that gave us the sequester was the best thing the Republicans achieved in the Obama era, and he walked right into it. The military cutbacks were always going to be temporary, but the rest of the federal budget will never, ever, recover to the pre-sequester trend line.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:29 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Smart attrition" is where the smarter employees with better resumes and more marketable skills get the fuck out before their workload goes up because of everyone leaving.

As someone who works on government projects and counts on smart, hard-working government employees to be able to get my own job done, this... does not sound appealing.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2016 [36 favorites]

A less-smart government is much easier to drown in a bathtub.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:35 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

That theory to be working in Congress lately.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:37 AM on September 7, 2016

So basically the Ryan budget, military spending is always good, but anything else the government does should be ended, full stop.

Already "military spending" goes to some things (a lot of scientific research, for instance) that aren't weapons or salaries for service members.

I can imagine a situation where pretty much all spending eventually gets justified as "military spending" and funneled through the DoD. My farmer grandfather once told me that farm subsidies are a national security issue. (If your country imports most of your food you're going to be in a world of hurt during war time if your supply lines are cut off, so you have to keep farming capacity even when farming becomes an unprofitable activity in the US...) So maybe farm subsidies can become "military spending." And the highway system was originally justified as a means for moving troops around within the US should the need arise... ROTC/GI Bill programs could pay for a lot more college educations if we wanted... And jobs programs for immigrants could cut down on the ability of terrorists to recruit within those populations...

Basically anything can be justified as "military spending" if you try hard enough, is my point. I wonder if Paul Ryan knows this, and is actually totally okay with that approach? I sort of feel like a lot of Republican voters would be, like they just need that "national security" figleaf to justify supporting policies which actually benefit them directly anyway...
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:42 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

I can imagine a situation where pretty much all spending eventually gets justified as "military spending" and funneled through the DoD

And that's how you get this much closer to a military dictatorship.
posted by dis_integration at 9:45 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

So in this speech Trump called for:
- increased military spending and ending the defense sequester
- more money for the VA
- no cuts to "entitlement programs"
- infrastructure spending
- even more "infrastructure spending" on his Taj Ma Wall and increase in ~~immigration officers~~ deportation squads

But remember, the Tea Party started because of research showing that government debt in excess of 90% of GDP would lead to an economic collapse, and austerity measures were *required* for the last 8 years of a Democratic president, even during the worst recession in 70 years. It's about a commitment to small government, doncha know.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [23 favorites]

Clinton camp fires back: We have 95 retired general, admiral endorsements

Presidential Candidates in Definitely-Not-Precarious Democracy Vie for Backing of Military
posted by indubitable at 9:48 AM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

And that's how you get this much closer to a military dictatorship.

I wonder if Paul Ryan knows this, and is actually totally okay with that approach?

(I'm not usually that cynical, but...)
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:48 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I feel like this is a good time to drop in this link to the Wikipedia article about herrenvolk democracy.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:49 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

More admirals than the Galactic Empire
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:50 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Imagine Hilary gave a speech with all of those policies (minus the wall) on the first day after taking office, what are the odds that the TeabaggerRyan Congress would obstruct every one of them? 100 percent?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:52 AM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Really the inciting incident of the Tea Party was Rick Santilli pitching a temper tantrum on national television about the idea of a tiny fraction of the money used to bail out the banks possibly being used to bail out the people the banks defrauded.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:53 AM on September 7, 2016 [23 favorites]

Clinton will go first in MSNBC's CinC Forum (8pm tonight, EDT)

Aw, that's when my fantasy football draft is. HOW CAN I DIVIDE MY HEART
posted by palindromic at 9:54 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Incidentally, bleachbit is free and open source. It involves no acid. Trump, on the other hand, might need to ask his acid supplier if the latest batch was a bummer.

When your demographic is obsessed with whiteness you badmouth acid, not bleach.
posted by phearlez at 9:54 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

So in this speech Trump called for:
[...]
- more money for the VA
- no cuts to "entitlement programs"
- infrastructure spending

Cool, OK, this is definitely different from what the current President has advocated [fake] and clearly a list of priorities that Congress will be in favor of funding [fake].
posted by psoas at 10:00 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just think the economic arguments were largely fig leaf covers for deep racist anger.

Oh absolutely, race was in it even with the bailouts, as the banks deliberately targeted black people for subprime mortgages, even when they more than qualified for much, much better loans.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:04 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

"@billclinton mocks Trump, says, "my charity helps people, his is used to pay off your attorney general"

And let the campaign begin!
posted by chris24 at 10:07 AM on September 7, 2016 [50 favorites]

Yes, "begin." (*sobwhimper*)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump’s Miami campaign office is actually just a prank from a Democrat’s New Year’s Eve party:

For more than eight months, the "Donald Trump for President Dade County Office" Facebook page has drawn comments from eager fans looking for a way to help the Republican presidential nominee.

There's the woman who hoped Trump would secure the GOP nomination even if he didn't win 1,237 party delegates. There's the Cuban immigrant who wrote he's "never been so proud to be an American now that I can vote for a true leader that really wants to make America great again." There's the would-be volunteer who tried unsuccessfully to book someone from Trump's local operation on Fox News.

All the support might come as a shock to Trump: His campaign has no Miami office.

The Facebook page? It's a gag, created by 39-year-old Democrat Mark Bernstein to amuse guests at a Trump-themed New Year's Eve party he threw last December.

"I didn't think it would ever last this long," he told the Miami Herald. "But in the void left by him not actually having any infrastructure, it's been listed on Google Maps!"

posted by palindromic at 10:13 AM on September 7, 2016 [72 favorites]

Trump’s Miami campaign office is actually just a prank from a Democrat’s New Year’s Eve party

Bravo! I'm standing up and applauding at my desk. All he needed to do was to ask for some money from the national campaign too, and it would be perfect.

And this - this - disorganized mess is polling at 44%?
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:16 AM on September 7, 2016 [35 favorites]

> Trump’s Miami campaign office is actually just a prank from a Democrat’s New Year’s Eve party

I have come here to can't even and post snark... and I'm all out of evens.
posted by farlukar at 10:17 AM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

farlukar: I have come here to can't even and post snark... and I'm all out of evens.

Could you maybe make a crude "fuck" out of your username and give that for a while?
posted by wenestvedt at 10:21 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

And this - this - disorganized mess is polling at 44%?

Most of what campaigns do is what the political consultants tell them they need to do, which is probably more oriented to getting the consultants a new deck on their Alexandria mansion or a new paintjob for their yacht. Certainly Hillary got burned by Mark Penn's really bad ideas in 2008. So maybe you don't need campaign offices? Maybe you don't need GOTV efforts? Maybe canvassing is ineffective? Maybe all you need is wall-to-wall media coverage and dank memes. Maybe the rare pepes will win this on their own. We'll find out soon enough. Well, not soon enough. But soon.
posted by dis_integration at 10:22 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

My YouTube recommendations are now breathless cable news clips about the election interspersed with "3 hours of waves on a beach--zen!!!"

Sounds about right.

Edit because I totally posted this to the wrong FPP but it kind of works for both.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:23 AM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

We'll find out soon enough. Well, not soon enough. But soon.

Well, we'll find out.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:24 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

WaPo: Donald Trump says only he can fix a corrupt system. Now we’ve learned that’s another pipe dream.

Not only is Trump corrupt, he sucks at being corrupt. And this tidbit about the Bondi issue:

"Not only did Trump give Bondi that donation, a few months later he hosted a $3,000-a-person fundraiser for her reelection at his Mar-a-Lago resort. And he gave her what he might call a fantastic deal: While this year he has charged his campaign $140,000 every time it uses the mansion for an event, the Republican Party of Florida paid Mar-a-Lago less than $5,000 for Bondi’s fundraiser."
posted by chris24 at 10:26 AM on September 7, 2016 [38 favorites]

Some of us think it started because there was a black guy in charge all of a sudden.

That, and the 27% of hardcore Republicans who still believed George W. Bush did a good job as President needed rebranding once the miserable failure was no longer in office.
posted by Gelatin at 10:27 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

On college/non-college: think about who gets scammed and by what scams. Think about who gets scammed by get-rich-quick schemes and infomercial shit. Think about who gets scammed by affinity fraud. Think about how the GOP's direct mail operations are closely tied to fundraising scams aimed particularly at the elderly.

Then think what happens when you have a candidate who is a scam artist.

You know I joked about this above but it seems to me that the Clinton campaign could do much with stoking fear of a market crash if Trump is elected.

This is why Hillary's in Charlotte tomorrow, and why it's going to get as many visits as many places in Ohio and Florida.
posted by holgate at 10:27 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gawd, the BBC just reported the whole 'Clinton missing open goals... string of scandals... candidates tied..." narrative practically without variation. It did add a 'why do so many women not get excited by Clinton?' extra, though, which was answered by an interview with a female voter that 'women are much harder on women than they are on men'.

Gah.
posted by Devonian at 10:31 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton leads Trump 58-35 among women so I dispute that framing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:32 AM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

Women are QUIET about liking Clinton. Because people like to hate on us for it.
posted by agregoli at 10:33 AM on September 7, 2016 [86 favorites]

Local flavor: Trump rental properties in Norfolk were part of 1970s federal discrimination suit

[Trump was just in town yesterday, btw]
posted by indubitable at 10:36 AM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Santillis's rant was the mythological initiation event but it had little to do with the actual politics of the Tea Party as a populist movement, and more resembled the establishment cooptation of that populist rage.

Further, the Santilli rant was pure astroturf shilling. The groundwork had already been laid for introduction and popularization of a "Tea Party" months ahead of Obama's election by Koch-funded organizations like FreedomWorks and Americans For Prosperity. They didn't just harness the white conservative outrage, they helped manufacture it.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:38 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Some of us think it started because there was a black guy in charge all of a sudden.

Crispus Attucks was a victim of the Boston Massacre. The Tea Party came three years later.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:38 AM on September 7, 2016

Breaking: DJT announces that, if elected, he will force Apple to put back the headphone jack, and Tim Cook will personally pay for it. [fake?]
posted by The Bellman at 10:39 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Charges planned against Green Party candidate Jill Stein
(The charges are trespassing and vandalism; Stein spray-painted "I approve this message" on a bulldozer at a Dakota Access Pipeline protest.)

Whoops: Independent candidate appears to have accidentally picked a running mate
(Evan McMullin campaign used name "Nathan Johnson" as a placeholder name until they could decide on a running mate for him, and the deadline to have it changed has passed in eight of those nine states: LA, IA, MN, AR, ID, UT, VA, and SC. He has two days left to change it in Colorado. Apparently they didn't even have a specific Nathan Johnson in mind, if I'm reading it correctly.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:39 AM on September 7, 2016 [30 favorites]

Stein spray-painted "I approve this message" on a bulldozer at a Dakota Access Pipeline protest.

"Run Jill-ian!"
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:41 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can fault Stein for a lot of things, but participating in the Dakota protest is not one of them.
posted by anastasiav at 10:42 AM on September 7, 2016 [45 favorites]

Merchandise update: The bumper stickers I ordered on August 9th (and complained about here) arrived today.
posted by DanSachs at 10:43 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can fault Stein for a lot of things, but participating in the Dakota protest is not one of them.

I agree, but spraypainting something that wasn't about her would've been maybe better?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:46 AM on September 7, 2016 [41 favorites]

I can't fault Stein for participating in the protest, but spray-painting a bulldozer further indicates that she's not a serious Presidential candidate and has no intention of acting like one.
posted by zachlipton at 10:48 AM on September 7, 2016 [35 favorites]

What with Jason Chaffetz announcing more frivolous investigations today, I contacted the House Oversight and Reform Committee by phone (202-225-5074) since there was not a good email contact form.

Here is the rather simple script I used as a cue sheet during the call:

I am contacting to address you in order to address the House Oversight Committee. Recently Chairman Chaffetz has suggested that you will open yet another investigation into Secretary Hillary Clinton's emails. The House Republican caucus has already conducted numerous investigations into the Secretary's response to the tragedy of Benghazi and her email server. However, none of these investigations have led to charges, much less convictions. Thus, I see this as a huge waste of our citizens' money and legislative resources.

Instead of investigating Secretary Clinton, I suggest you investigate the Republican candidate, Donald J. Trump on charges of attempted bribery of public officials.

On August 6th, 2015 during the first Republican primary debate, Trump admitted to making charitable contributions to politicians in the hope that donations could be exchange for favors. This is actual pay-to-play.

It has also come to light that Trump made campaign contributions to Greg Abbot and Pam Bondi. Shortly after Trump's organizations made the payments, in each case, Abbot and Bondi dropped investigations into the likely fraudulent "Trump University". Trump also hosted a fund raiser for AG Bondi after she had dropped her investigation.

In conclusion, the combination of Trump's admission of making payments with the intent of influencing politicians and the dropping of investigations into one of his enterprises by two attorneys general suggest that a hot fire of bribery exists in the Trump camp. I must, therefore, demand an investigation into the political spending habits of the Republican Presidential nominee. It is in the public interest for Congress to oversee an investigation into these very serious accusations leveled at Donald J. Trump.

The blockquoted text is hereby released into the public domain for the public good. Please feel free to use or modify this piece to serve your needs.

As a note, I called Rep. Chaffetz's office, and a very nice young man directed me to the Oversight Committee, even though I'm not from UT. The woman who took my call for Oversight Committee was also very polite and attentive. I have generally had very positive interactions with the congressional staffers of both parties.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:50 AM on September 7, 2016 [65 favorites]

Apparently they didn't even have a specific Nathan Johnson in mind

Maybe this guy from this year's RNC?
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:54 AM on September 7, 2016

I wish he'd picked Navin Johnson. That would have ruled so hard.
posted by palomar at 10:55 AM on September 7, 2016 [19 favorites]

(Jill Stein video. It's like she's never even vandalized anything before.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:56 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

See if I were McMullin's staff I would have used "H. Ash Brown" as my fictional placeholder running mate.

If elected, he will not serve, after 10:30 AM.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2016 [61 favorites]

Stein doesn't have to be a "serious" candidate to draw a critical 1-2% of Bernie Bros in Ohio or Florida.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:00 AM on September 7, 2016

Apparently they didn't even have a specific Nathan Johnson in mind, if I'm reading it correctly.

This has sit-com written all over it
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:10 AM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

Nathan Fielder please legally change your last name and get in there ASAP.
posted by Tevin at 11:12 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Or Nathan Lane.

Hey, the new Trump Network might want some non-newstalk programming.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:14 AM on September 7, 2016

MCMULLINFACE MCMULLINFACE MCMULLINFACE

NATHAN JOHNSPLOOOOSION
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:15 AM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

The one or two percent Stein draws never would have voted Hillary anyway. Stein is purely targeting the lunatic demographic. She seems boundlessly devoted to proving she has no credibility. As abhorrent as she is, if anything she's done Hillary a real favor by making the Green Party represent unadulterated craziness in an election year where many Democrats resent and distrust the party's candidate. A less idiotic candidate probably could have siphoned off many more of Bernie's supporters.
posted by vathek at 11:15 AM on September 7, 2016 [21 favorites]

Spraypainting that bulldozer looks to me like painting "Fury" on your tank, violent nose art on your airplane, or writing a message on a bomb. Kind of the opposite of what she intended.
posted by achrise at 11:19 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

This has sit-com written all over it

I was thinking shitty Adam Sandler movie with Rob Schneider as the chief of staff.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:21 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was considering placing a bet on Clinton winning. It has occurred to me that merely holding US dollars means that the bet is already on.

At this point, I inform any Trump supporter that I have $100 right here says Trump Loses.

And none of them seem to step up and put their $100 on the line.
posted by mikelieman at 11:22 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

[VEEP writer] Screams and throws away another script draft.
posted by chris24 at 11:23 AM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

From the Elections Have Consequences Files:

Vox: For the first time ever, America’s uninsured rate has fallen below 9 percent:

States that opted to expand Medicaid coverage to include lower-income individuals have managed to cut their uninsured rate from 18.4 percent in 2013 to 9.2 percent in the first three months of 2016.

But for the 19 states that have opted not to expand Medicaid, the decrease in the uninsured rate has not been as substantial, falling from 22.7 percent in 2013 to 16.7 percent in 2016.

Appropriately snarky commentary from Scott Lemieux at LGM:

I hope you will not unfairly demonize kindly, moderate Republicans like John McCain and Mitt Romney and Sam Alito merely because their actions would have caused the number of uninsured to head back towards 20% — what’s tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths and untold unnecessary bankruptcies between friends, really?

posted by palindromic at 11:27 AM on September 7, 2016 [35 favorites]

I know this is just one set of polls from a single pollster (Emerson College) and could easily be an outlier but it's disconcerting to think that the race could possibly be this close in New Jersey (Clinton +4) and Rhode Island (Clinton +3). Her lead should be in the double-digits.
posted by guiseroom at 11:31 AM on September 7, 2016

So is McMuffin even allowed to find a Nathan Johnson to be his running mate? If he is, it weirdly implies that the names on the ballot don't refer to specific people. If Trump gets bored, could he recruit another Mike Pence, for instance? Is there a law that guarantees that when you vote "Hillary Clinton" it refers to a particular Hillary Clinton?

On the plus side, Nathan Johnsons have a deep bench.
posted by vathek at 11:32 AM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

So is McMuffin even allowed to find a Nathan Johnson to be his running mate?

I think it's first come first serve. If my name was Nate Johnson, I'd be running to CNN to assert my rights.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:36 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

TPM - Get Real, People

For the Trump isn't the warmonger Clinton is crowd:

"He's proposing getting all the toys and kicking all the ass that the hardest core warmongers want. He's just taking 'democracy' off the list of reasons for doing it and promising everything will go great. That's not policy. That's bullshit. Aggressive foreign policy, for aspirational motives or dark ones involves foreign entanglements, involves things going wrong. Why this isn't obvious to more people I do not know."
posted by chris24 at 11:39 AM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

But I don't need her to be a hero and I don't think ses running as one, which is making those of us who gasped at the brilliance of Obama's campaign machine are nervously looking at this one and wondering where the energy is.

As a woman I feel like she is definitely running as a hero for women's rights.
posted by zutalors! at 11:41 AM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

On the plus side, Nathan Johnsons have a deep bench.

Nathans Johnson.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:41 AM on September 7, 2016 [40 favorites]

Nathan Johnsi
posted by drezdn at 11:48 AM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nathan's Johnson - Running Mate.

Make it so.
posted by spinifex23 at 11:49 AM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

> If Trump gets bored, could he recruit another Mike Pence, for instance?

Well, now that you raise the possibility, I'll be disappointed if Trump doesn't replace Mike Pence with a different Mike Pence. And it's not like it'd be out of character, given how many other people he's shuffled through his campaign already, and the reports that he wasn't thrilled about Pence to begin with.

(The dream scenario, obviously, would be for Trump to find a Steven Michael "Mike" Pence.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:51 AM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

I know this is just one set of polls from a single pollster (Emerson College)

Landlines only, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Their earlier polls have had similar leans. 538 says B-grade, R+1.3.
posted by holgate at 11:54 AM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just read Donald's policy talk from, what, yesterday, the Iran/Iraq war.
Set him up/ fighting/ they use the gas/ wait/ another bottle of beer on the wall...yeah.

So, Mr Trump, tell us who emerged victorious in the war of the roses.
"I'll take place settings and plate for 1000£, Alex. Kay, there was two kings, one french, rose lover, I think, they fought, built fortifications, did the jousting thing, very brave. And then ah, the king won"
posted by clavdivs at 12:11 PM on September 7, 2016

Folks, I think I might have just discovered the ingenious loophole the Never Trumpers have been looking for. If the Cheeto ekes it out, a whole crew of Donalds Trump can show up to the inauguration demanding to take the oath of office. It'll be pandemonium. No one will be able to tell which one is entitled to be president, because the case of the McMuffin man shows we elect names and not people. The Trumps can then duke it out in court for the entire term, none of them able to exercise the powers of the office due to the uncertainty about who the American people voted for. Or perhaps the country could be ruled by a committee of Donalds Trump. Surely the rest of them can't be as bad. #neverspecifictrump
posted by vathek at 12:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why this isn't obvious to more people I do not know.

I find myself saying that a lot lately.
posted by diogenes at 12:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Apparently they didn't even have a specific Nathan Johnson in mind, if I'm reading it correctly.

This has sit-com written all over it

It actually had 1979 Steve Martin movie written all over it, but the name was messed up by audio disruptions and echoes. It is a common error, substituting "Nathan" for "Navin."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 12:20 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

there's nothing in the rule book that SAYS a dog can't be nathan johnson

Yes but a dog can't be president until it turns 35 and good luck with that. You'd need to find out if dog years are constitutional.
posted by Talez at 12:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's nothing in the rule book that SAYS dog years aren't constitutional.
posted by vathek at 12:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

You'd need to find out if dog years are constitutional.

Good luck doing that with an eight-member court.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:30 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Folks, I think I might have just discovered the ingenious loophole the Never Trumpers have been looking for. If the Cheeto ekes it out, a whole crew of Donalds Trump can show up to the inauguration demanding to take the oath of office.

"I am Trumpacus!"

"No, *I* am Trumpacus!"...
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

There's nothing in the rule book that SAYS dog years aren't constitutional.

Does it have a long form birth certificate? What if its father was a Rhodesian Ridgeback? Is it still a naturally born US dog?
posted by Talez at 12:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Some people want politicians to be saviors and heroes and pure of heart. They are perpetually disappointed by nature and usually don't know what to do when their candidates win and actually have to get down in the mud of governance.

Absolutely. And never mind how people feel after someone is elected. They are disappointed from the start. Look at the widespread disaffection for responsible, forward-thinking candidates qua candidates in the first place. Look at the disturbing trend of backing "dismantlists" and unabashed saboteurs.

This nation feeds at media and educational troughs full of fairy tales and myths. We latch onto the narrative of the hero so easily, fail to distinguish between savior and leader, and consequently never even begin to grasp the massive, underlying, persistent, long-term movements that produce the landscapes within which these icons even make sense. And in conflating hero with leader, we also fail to make the connection that accepting someone's leadership implies assuming some personal responsibility to act as well, and to do so in concert with others. To add one's own energy to the movement.

those of us who gasped at the brilliance of Obama's campaign machine are nervously looking at this one and wondering where the energy is

In 2008 I was flat-out agitated that Obama wasn't going for the jugular. But thanks to a fantastic ground game, no drama Obama won handily.

I'm not worried about a fumble at the campaign level this time around. If Clinton's trudge up the Hill doesn't result in victory, it's because we are collectively just too addled as a nation to make a sensible decision.
posted by perspicio at 12:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

My local paper published this today: "The travails of a Black Lives Matter sign," by Nettie Harrington Pangallo. She lives in Shutesbury, Mass., and had her Black Lives Matter sign defaced by a neighbor:

I greeted my neighbor, and asked him what he was doing. “Making adjustments” he said with a chuckle. “That’s my property,” I said while smiling, “and it’s not for you to adjust.”

He continued to tape his sign on mine, and with a condescending tone told me that “all lives matter.” [...]

Five days later, on Aug. 20, my husband heard a truck coming down the road and come to a stop in front of the sign. As he casually looked out the window, he saw a young man picking up the sign and putting it in his truck.

“What are you doing?” my husband asked. The young man explained that he was “just talking about this and was about to show it to a friend.”

My husband told him to put it back, and he did. The truck drove around a bit and then parked – you guessed it – at that same neighbor’s house. My husband took a picture of his license plate and left a note to the driver reading that freedom of speech is one of the things that makes our country great and that stealing in response to a disagreement is not acceptable.

Then the sign was stolen:

When we asked our neighbor if he’d seen anything, he and his wife said that they noticed it was missing and contacted their friend at the police department for us. They followed this with many reassurances that they did not take it and that they were “holding people back” and telling people in the neighborhood not to steal it, but that they were surprised it took until now for the sign to disappear.

“It’s offensive, it incites terrorism, and it’s anti-cop,” they said. They also expressed their frustration that I had vandalized their sign – the one they used to cover mine – by taking it off.

That’s right. I vandalized their vandalism of my property. They said that they assumed we would be upset, but didn’t really care. They ended the conversation by letting us know that if a new sign went up, it would probably be stolen as well.

That mentality—if you try to stop me vandalizing your sign, you're vandalizing me—is so insane I can't believe it would be verbalized if it weren't for the general lowering of standards of discourse produced by this wretched election season.

Anyway, I'm pleased enough the Gazette published the piece that I'll forgive a portion of their maddeningly frequent typos.
posted by languagehat at 12:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [123 favorites]

Nervous about polls?

Fuggedaboudid. Clinton wins 89% (random drift) / 93% (Bayesian). Think down-ticket.

The second answer is: the House of Representatives. Republicans are highly likely to lose seats. But will they retain their majority? If they do, there is preliminary talk on the right of impeaching President Clinton in advance. Such a remarkable act of polarization would probably slow down legislative progress, to put it mildly.
posted by petebest at 12:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

T.D. Strange: It's about a commitment to small government, doncha know.

Liberal government drone rant: "smaller government" generally doesn't mean less government, it means more outsourcing, which means less transparency, and in many cases, less efficiency. See, for a contractor to do a job, they have to have government oversight, reviewing deliverables and materials by a government project manager. Sure, the contracting team can be big, with one government person overseeing the contract, but contracts take time to develop, get passed through legal, sent out for RFP, selected and put into place. That's months, if not years for big projects, all that time and nothing is done. Then reviewing the products and deliverables - what if they're not up to spec? Rejected, requesting new products or deliverables. How often is billing done? Monthly? OK, that's at least a month behind schedule, if it was on schedule in the first place. And then there's the total cost, which is never compared to the cost of simply hiring enough government staff to do the job in-house and do it right, and in the end keep all the experience and skills learned from the job. Yup, a contracting team completes a job and can provide some end-of-project report to pass the gained knowledge along, but they also leave with another project on their collective resume, looking all the more impressive for the next bid.

Don't get me wrong, there are examples of times and places it makes sense to have contractors and consultants working on something, like unusual projects or plans that are developed every few years. But the day-to-day stuff, the ongoing work that is always the job of government in one form or another? Let's keep it to government workers, with capable managers, and a salary that gets sufficiently skilled people in the position. Because managing contracts is dull, time consuming, and full of excesses. But this story doesn't make for exciting news, or get people to the polls to vote for Smarter Government instead of Smaller Government. /rant
posted by filthy light thief at 12:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [37 favorites]

McConnell Confirms Plan For Stopgap Funding Until December. Between this and hinting at Garland hearings, maybe they're planning for a Hilary win. It would help Speaker Ryan a lot to pass a 2017 budget he can then blame on the lame duck Congress, thus punting on a shutdown fight until at least next year.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

chris24: "Not only did Trump give Bondi that donation, a few months later he hosted a $3,000-a-person fundraiser for her reelection at his Mar-a-Lago resort. And he gave her what he might call a fantastic deal: While this year he has charged his campaign $140,000 every time it uses the mansion for an event, the Republican Party of Florida paid Mar-a-Lago less than $5,000 for Bondi’s fundraiser."

See, Mar-a-Lago just got that much better. So much better. Totally worth $140,000 per use.

(Really, was the facility used in the same way? Are we comparing apples of the same size, or little apples versus hoooge apples? Because some of that price inflation might be reasonable. Maybe.)
posted by filthy light thief at 12:46 PM on September 7, 2016

Liberal government drone rant: "smaller government" generally doesn't mean less government, it means more outsourcing, which means less transparency, and in many cases, less efficiency.

Don't forget the profits for the contractors. "Smaller government" just means that more taxpayer money goes to politicians' friends.
posted by rp at 12:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Mexican cabinet minister who invited Trump is now unemployed

The Mexican president — who had praised many of Trump’s broad policy goals hours earlier — was forced to assure his Twitter followers that they would not be funding Trump’s wall. His electorate was not amused
posted by petebest at 12:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Pence breaks with Trump, says Obama born in Hawaii

SAN DIEGO -- Mike Pence on Wednesday declined to say whether Donald Trump should apologize for suggesting Barack Obama was born outside the U.S., but he did say Trump's stance wouldn’t hurt him with minority voters.

“I honestly think that Donald Trump, in his candor and in his vision, is expanding the Republican Party even as we speak,” Pence added, when asked if the comments would limit Trump’s ability to expand the Republican base. “I think it’s very clear that Republicans, Independents and Democrats are responding to this call to make America great again. And I’m very confident that as we continue to make it clear that that vision for America is for every American regardless of race or creed or color, that we’re going to continue to see that only grow. The polls are encouraging.”

Trump's "candor and vision" Gah! Candor is when you tell a woman that she would be so pretty if only she wasn't fat. And visions can be nightmarescapes.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Absolutely. And never mind how people feel after someone is elected. They are disappointed from the start.

My pure, unabashed and highly personalized anecdata on the impossible-to-please looking-for-a-hero set is that if you drill down far enough you do have a good chance of hitting a seam of laziness. Having impossibly high standards, and knowing from the get-go that they are impossibly high and that no one in the history of ever could really meet them, provides a pretty good cover for not having to expend any physical or emotional energy doing the hard work of democracy. It'd never work anyway, the system is completely corrupt all the way down, both sides are equally bad, there's no possible way to fix any of this to my standards and oh hey just by coincidence that means I never have to door knock, contribute money or write a letter to anyone!
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [25 favorites]

see, this here is the problem with thinking you've seen it all.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:55 PM on September 7, 2016

A Nate Johnson learns he's running for Vice President
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Huh, zutalors, I see a lot of projection of that narrative on to her, and she's certainly appealed to it a few times (in the convention especially, with references to Beijing and intergenerational mother/daughter framing). But I haven't heard her thematize women's rights as a major premise of her candidacy.

I hear this projection argument a lot, and I'm not sure where it's coming from. Either women are silently for Clinton, or too hard on Clinton, or projecting, or something. Whatever women are seeing, that can't be correct. It must be a misunderstanding or mistake, or we'd all see it.

I heard all of her post-primary speeches and she mentioned women's rights in all of them. I have never heard level of consistency and focus from any other Presidential candidate in my entire life.

Whether that warrants "hero" or whatever doesn't really matter to me, i was specifically responding to the idea that she's a total pragmatist without an inspiring message.

Honestly, hearing that consistent focus on women's rights really got me excited about her campaign.
posted by zutalors! at 1:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [61 favorites]

Right on, zulators! I'm getting extremely tired of being told women aren't seeing what's REALLY the deal with HRC.
posted by agregoli at 1:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

Donald Trump accidentally declares himself ineligible for the presidency [real, Washington Post]
posted by morganw at 1:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

And yeah, she mentions women's rights as a focus of her campaign quite a bit so...not getting it.
posted by agregoli at 1:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

I'm *seriously* concerned that Donnie Trump is suffering from the same Early Onset Dementia that killed his father, Fred.

Donald Trump - Obama Birth Certificate - Greatest Scam

posted by mikelieman at 1:16 PM on September 7, 2016

Trump still thinks they put Clinton's old phones in acid

Putting things in acid is very presidential.
posted by jackbishop at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

> "Donald Trump accidentally declares himself ineligible for the presidency [real, Washington Post]"

From that article: "One interesting little detail from that deposition: Trump didn't remember Trump University having a blog -- which it did. The blog has been a source of some embarrassing reversals, such as when it said that Hillary Clinton would be 'a great president or vice-president.' In the deposition, Trump said he did remember who wrote the blog posts: Meredith McIver, the woman who was blamed for Melania Trump's plagiarized Republican convention speech."

MEREDITH!
posted by kyrademon at 1:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [75 favorites]

I can't believe one presidential candidate has an actual professional scape goat on staff
posted by schadenfrau at 1:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [37 favorites]

You wonder how Trump will spend more on military without increasing the debt and how he will magically transport two million illegal aliens across the border in the first hours of his presidency? His secret weapon: Samantha Stephens.
STEPHENS! (looking this up, I was disappointed by the ph)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

This comment serves as both a Recent Activity bookmark and a waypost for when these threads became un-fun slogs for me.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

I can't believe one presidential candidate has an actual professional scape goat on staff

please. they all do. Meredith is a Sin-Eater, which requires accreditation
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [22 favorites]

Man, Meredith is getting an incredible resume out of this. From lying to the Feds to writing blog posts, she does it all!
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's time they fire Meredith and bring in that talented, charismatic, super good looking, large handed John Barron guy I've been hearing so much about.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

I can't believe one presidential candidate has an actual professional scape goat on staff

I can't believe that all political operatives don't have professional scapegoats on staff. They seem incredibly handy for embarrassing situations.
posted by Talez at 1:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, I think they all will now.

and that's how Meredith went from name to professional title
posted by schadenfrau at 1:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [30 favorites]

They could have schools for it. Put them next to the butlering schools
posted by schadenfrau at 1:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

alternate theory: that deposition clearly shows that Trump's memory for names and faces is shit, so maybe every female factotum under his direct command is "Meredith McIver"
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

I can't believe that all political operatives don't have professional scapegoats on staff. They seem incredibly handy for embarrassing situations.

Who needs a scapegoat when you've got Anthony Wiener on your bench?
posted by mikelieman at 1:46 PM on September 7, 2016

Meredith McIver also co-wrote a lot of Trump's "How to Get Rich by Giving Me Your Money" books.

If I were a newsman, I'd seriously think about hiring some underlings to scour those books for some hilarious fuckups, if only to push Donnie to the point of admitting he had nothing to do with the writing of his own books.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:54 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

They could have schools for it. Put them next to the butlering schools

Let's face it. Everyone would just want a Harvey Fierstein voiced Karl.
posted by Talez at 1:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like we need to help make an escape plan for the Merediths on election night
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like we need to help make an escape plan for the Merediths on election night
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:00 PM on September 7 [+] [!]

Are there any remaining Spider Steves left
posted by schadenfrau at 2:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The one or two percent Stein draws never would have voted Hillary anyway.

Maybe, but there's definitely something strange going on with Secretary Clinton's support. She's polling at 46.9% nationally per 538, which is a few points lower than you'd expect from the candidate leading the race.
posted by chrchr at 2:08 PM on September 7, 2016

T.D. Strange: McConnell Confirms Plan For Stopgap Funding Until December. Between this and hinting at Garland hearings, maybe they're planning for a Hilary win.

I'd say stopgap funding indicates a maybe, because an obstructionist GOP House is one the Dems can (rightfully) blame for government shutdowns in November. But Garland hearings would be a very strong indicator that they see Hillary as the next POTUS, otherwise why stall this long if they can get someone more conservative with Trump?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:08 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Confirming Garland could potentially help some endangered republican senators keep their seats. It would be a smart long term move before the election. Don't expect them to do it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

You wonder how Trump will spend more on military without increasing the debt and how he will magically transport two million illegal aliens across the border in the first hours of his presidency? His secret weapon: Samantha Stephens.

Oh please. Endora would gut him like a fish before he finished the oath. Then they'd have to replace him with Dick Sargent.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

I came to realize that there is a whole sector of society in which the privilege of whiteness and maleness didn’t really trickle down.

I know there's a lot of road under the tires, but this one is just flat out not true. I've argued with lots of poor white dudes about this.

The one that always works is... How many times have you been to jail? Why aren't you in jail right now?

Almost every dumb teenage white boy with no money and nothing better to do has smoked weed, vandalized shit, done stupid shit like fucking around in playgrounds at night during "curfew", drank in public, shoplifted, gotten in fights, etc. almost none of them did more than spend a few nights in jail even if they were caught with a big sack of weed.

Now go talk to a group of brown kids about how many of their friends went to jail. Or whether they have a record that's more than like, misdeameanor levels of drug/alcoholic possession or shoplifting or like a plea'd out assault charge they served no time on.

There's your white privilege. You don't need money or power. It's the cop telling you to pour out that beer son or letting you leave the bonfire/park/etc instead of cuffing you or giving you an MIP.

All my poor-to-precariously-middle-class white friends did SO MUCH of that shit and walked. And I only heard wilder stuff from small towns. This is just not true in nonwhite communities, especially in cities or small towns where the cops fuck with minorities consistently.
posted by emptythought at 2:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [154 favorites]

Now Jeannie, on the other hand, has experience working with the US military.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Charles Pierce: It's Time for Hillary Clinton to Play Offense on Obamacare:

Now, though, with this remarkable statistic in her arsenal, it's time for HRC to bring the stepping-stone argument to the fore with a vengeance. It is not disrespectful or disloyal to the current president to campaign on improving a law that already has made the lives of millions of people a little easier, not when the opposition's entire healthcare alternative is to blow up the law and immiserate those same people all over again.

To her credit, she has made this argument consistently throughout the campaign, in the face of the ACA's continuing demonization by her political opponents, and the sabotage of the ACA occurring out in the states, and the endless finagling of the insurance industry. Looking at the fact that less than 10 percent of the population of this country is lacking health insurance is to look at an undeniable triumph, but not the only one, and certainly not the last one.

posted by palindromic at 2:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

morganw: Donald Trump accidentally declares himself ineligible for the presidency [real, Washington Post]

"Hillary and her top aides told the FBI and others related in the lawsuits that they couldn’t recall or remember -- can't remember anything!" Trump said. "By the way, if she really can't remember, she can't be president! She doesn't remember anything! She doesn't even remember whether or not she was instructed on how to use emails. 'Were you instructed on how to use?' 'I can't remember.'"

Why's that tricky? Because asserting that Clinton can't be president if she doesn't remember details in an interview would mean that Trump, too, is ineligible for the nation's highest office. Big league.

As part of The Post's research for our biography of the Republican nominee, we compiled hundreds of documents from Trump's past. Among those were a number of depositions from a tiny portion of the thousands of lawsuits to which Trump has been a party over the years. And in those depositions? Constant assertions by Trump that he couldn't recall or didn't know the answers to questions offered him.

Sys Rq: If I were a newsman, I'd seriously think about hiring some underlings to scour those books for some hilarious fuckups, if only to push Donnie to the point of admitting he had nothing to do with the writing of his own books.

Yeah, you don't have to dig into his books to find out how he had nothing to do with his own brands and business ventures, at least when there's legal questions before him.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

@MittRomney

I hope voters get to see former GOP Governors Gary Johnson and Bill Weld on the debate stages this fall. [REAL!]

Not quite an endorsement (yet) but maybe a test balloon?
posted by stolyarova at 2:25 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

chrchr: there's definitely something strange going on with Secretary Clinton's support. She's polling at 46.9% nationally per 538, which is a few points lower than you'd expect from the candidate leading the race.

Perhaps because popular vote can be so far off of electoral votes? In the current 538 polls-plus forecast, Hillary has 296.4 electoral votes with 47.1% of the pop. vote. Donald has 241.3 electoral votes, with 44.3% of the pop. vote. It's no landslide, but it's a win. And for comparison, PEC has Clinton 346, Trump 192 EV.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:28 PM on September 7, 2016

Charles Pierce: It's Time for Hillary Clinton to Play Offense on Obamacare:

[itsatrap.jpg]

There's too many edge case anecdotes that any wilfully intellectually dishonest person can gish gallop on. The only people who Obamacare have helped are undeserving poor people, it's going to start slamming state budgets next year (disaster in the making we tried to stop!), and they lied about keeping your (unbelievable shitty it was deemed too bad a deal to keep selling) plan.

Obamacare is radioactive to anyone but people who can understand a semblance of nuance and have a shred of empathy (i.e. liberals).
posted by Talez at 2:33 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

prize bull octorok: alternate theory: that deposition clearly shows that Trump's memory for names and faces is shit, so maybe every female factotum under his direct command is "Meredith McIver"

Modified alternate theory: Donald doesn't really see women as individual people, so he just names all women Meredith McIver because that was the girl who pushed him down when he was 10. But similarly, he has a soft spot for Steves, as seen with his Economic Steve Team.

So maybe it's more like Dubya's long list of nicknames (Wikipedia list!!), except it's a lot of Merediths and Steves. Like Egg McMuffin's Nathan Johnson.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:33 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

In other news, Josh Marshall destroys the notion that Trump might be non-interventionist or less "warhawky" than Hillary. Demolishes it.
posted by msalt at 2:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Charges planned against Green Party candidate Jill Stein

But of course no charges against the pipeline planners who destroyed newly discovered burial sites before they could be studied, or the thugs who loosed attack dogs on the protesters. Business as usual.

There's a lot more on the protests against the Dakota Access pipeline in this thread, btw: They say it's the biggest gathering of Native Americans in 100 years.
posted by homunculus at 2:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

> I can't fault Stein for participating in the protest, but spray-painting a bulldozer further indicates that she's not a serious Presidential candidate and has no intention of acting like one.

True. In previous elections Stein seemed to go out of her way to get arrested. It's part of her campaign strategy. I hope she doesn't do more harm than good with this stunt, because what's happening at Standing Rock is seriously fucked up.

OTOH, so far all that the serious Presidential candidate has contributed is silence. It's past time Clinton said something.

A Test of U.S. Climate Leadership Will Be How We Treat the Standing Rock Sioux: Can we trust Clinton-Kaine promises of an energy future “where no one is left out or left behind”?

As Dakota Access Pipeline Fight Grows, Where Are Obama and Clinton?

Hillary Clinton must stand with Native Americans
posted by homunculus at 2:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Now Jeannie, on the other hand, has experience working with the US military.

Doctor Bombay totally seems like someone Donnie Trump would have on *his* bench, tho..
posted by mikelieman at 2:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm no Clinton fan, but if she got involved in a protest, I imagine it'd be far more substantial than spray painting a bulldozer with jokes about her presidential run. It's not about what protest Stein was at, it's about the gimmicky flashy BS and making it about her. It may work with the Bernie Bro holdouts, but it's a shit tactic otherwise.
posted by corb at 2:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

Donald Trump accidentally declares himself ineligible for the presidency [real, Washington Post]

The PDF has a transcript of The Donald under oath responding to list of people: does he recall them and did they have any involvement with Trump University? We join the transcript already in progress, at page 11 of 129.

Q: James Webb?

A: I don't remember the names -- don't remember the name.

Q: Kerry Martin?

A: Some of the names, by the way, sound familiar, but too many years to know.

Q: Paul Lucas?

A: Same answer.

Q: Kerry Lucas?

A: Same answer.

Q: Mike Peterson?

A: Same answer.

Q: Troy Peterson?

A: Same answer.

Q: Chris Gillem?

A: Same answer.

Q: Steve Gilpin?

A: Same answer.

Q: Scott Miller?

A: Same answer.

Q: Steve Miller?

A: Are you going to do this all day?

Q: Same answer?

A: Same answer.

Come on, Mr. Trump, you must recall him: he taught the "Take The Money and Run" curriculum.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [30 favorites]

You'd think he'd perk up when the Steves were mentioned.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:54 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Jared Yates Sexton ‏@JYSexton
CNN graphic says SECRET PLAN FOR ISIS while Trump video plays. They have notes on his speech, which has no secret plan. This is the problem.

Jared Yates Sexton being one of the few sane people left writing about this campaign.
posted by Talez at 3:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Hillary at Standing Rock. Yes. I would love to see her kick some @$% there. For me, not the Undecideds.
posted by petebest at 3:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm attending a non-political community town hall event tonight. I will not be able to watch the forum until tomorrow and I will not be able to sneak a peek at MeFi during the meeting. I haz many sadz about this. I am counting on all of you to provide thorough and clear synthesis and knife-edged snark for me to peruse in bed tonight so that I am ready for tomorrow's thread.

Continue with your analysis and TIA.
posted by Sophie1 at 3:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Lindsey Graham on CNN literally saying Obama/Clinton fucked up by not engaging in imperialism after the Libyans deposed Gaddafi.

Jesus Christ please make it stop.
posted by Talez at 3:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

> TPM: Trump Dings Clinton For Not Having ‘A Presidential Look’

Here's the Thing About Donald Trump's 'Presidential Look'
posted by homunculus at 3:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Q: Steve Miller?

A: *clap clap clap clap* He headed down to Ol' El Paso. [fake]

It's an old bit of news but I don't think it was covered here, but The Atlantic reported that the Trump University sales pitch leaned heavily on the song "For the Love of Money" by The O'Jays. In their words:

As soon as attendees entered the registration area, the song “For the Love of Money” by the O’Jays greeted them. The tune had been used as the theme to Trump’s reality television shows “The Apprentice” and “The Celebrity Apprentice,” presumably because of the song’s incessant chant of “Money, money, money, money...money!” But if seminar attendees had listened more closely to the song’s lyrics, they’d have realized that the tune is actually an indictment of Trump-esque money glorification:

For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know
Who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money

posted by peeedro at 3:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

One argument I've been making lately to people leaning Trump is..."Ok, so Trump is going to deal with illegal immigration by spending $60 billion to deport them. I thought the whole problem was we want the government to spend LESS of our tax money on illegal immigrants? Instead you want to take money away from citizens and use it on immigrants?

I have yet to find anyone who can make any real response to that.
posted by threeturtles at 3:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [21 favorites]

That's weird because if anyone is a cosmopolitan, Gary Johnson is. Was he pro-Federation?
posted by stolyarova at 3:32 PM on September 7, 2016

(Star Trek Federation, I mean, not Federalist vs Anti-Federalist)
posted by stolyarova at 3:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Star Trek Federation, I mean, not Federalist vs Anti-Federalist)

We will look back on this as the comment that launched a thousand Hamilton/DS9 mashups.
(Why not TOS? Because DS9 has a tailor who is also a spy).
posted by knuckle tattoos at 3:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [33 favorites]

he was like, "all the governments...will come together as one" and i guess I'm a bad teacher because I was like bwhahaha

Well, maybe he'll learn not to say silly things to people.
posted by rifflesby at 3:54 PM on September 7, 2016

Toronto Star: 11 reasons Hillary Clinton isn’t crushing Donald Trump

10) Desensitization to attacks: Clinton’s main argument — echoed by much of the media — is that Trump is an unprecedentedly unfit candidate, erratic and extreme. But trust in media gatekeepers has eroded, and this kind of rhetoric can sound the same old song to people bombarded with attack ads for years. “Negative campaigns have acclimated many voters to charges of extremism,” Varoga said, “so that when a truly dangerous candidate is slouching toward the White House, the warnings can seem like just another wild accusation in the middle of an ‘anything goes’ campaign.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Here, learn some more fun facts about Warren G. Harding:

Harding was born November 2, 1865, in Blooming Grove, Ohio. Nicknamed "Winnie" as a small child, Harding was the eldest of eight children born to George Tryon Harding, Sr. (1843–1928; usually known as Tryon) and Phoebe Elizabeth (Dickerson) Harding (1843–1910).

Warren Gamaliel "Winnie" Harding, son of Doctor George Tryon Harding, brother of Doctor George George Tryon Harding. (Further googling suggests there was also a Doctor Tryon Harding III, and perhaps beyond.)

Interestingly, though Winnie had no (legitimate) children of his own, he did have a nephew named Winnie the 2 (well, Warren G. Harding II, anyhow), one of Tryon II's kids.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

#12 she is
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

so that when a truly dangerous candidate is slouching toward the White House, the warnings can seem like just another wild accusation in the middle of an ‘anything goes’ campaign.”

Argh except you don't need to trust any media gatekeepers when the candidate himself says things that are literally crazy all the time and in multiple venues! Mistrust WaPo all you want, just head on over to twitter.com/realdonaldtrump and spend like 3 minutes taking a look for yourself!
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Warren Gamaliel Harding, First of his Name, Son of Tryon of the Blooming Grove, Brother of George II Tryon II, Leader of the Land of the Shining Sea!
posted by stolyarova at 4:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Thank you for signing up for Warren G. Harding facts! You will now receive daily texts with facts about Warren G. Harding!
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:08 PM on September 7, 2016 [43 favorites]

Peter Daou
‏@peterdaou

Really, @nytimes, really? "Joyless, unappealing slog." Another male reporter sneers at #Hillary's supporters.

Ross Douthat! Christ, what an asshole.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Huffington Post has a very interesting long read on Ivanka-- her childhood and the influence she seems to have over her father. I highly recommend it. Is Ivanka for Real?

Earlier this summer, a friend of Jared and Ivanka's made an interesting point about the dates of some of Donald’s worst tweets of the campaign. Notice how they came while the couple was off the grid observing the Sabbath or another Jewish holiday, he told me.

On the day of the Orlando nightclub massacre, while Ivanka would be celebrating Shavuot, the anniversary of the day Jews received the Torah from God, her father badly undermined his argument that he would be a responsible leader during a crisis by tweeting, “Appreciate the congrats for being right on Islamic terrorism.” A few weeks later, on the morning of Saturday, July 2, he tweeted the now-famous six-pointed star atop an image that also included Hilary Clinton, a pile of cash and the words “most corrupt candidate ever.” Several Sabbaths after that, Trump retweeted another meme (tangentially related to a character named Pepe the Frog) that tickled the white supremacists who support his campaign. And a few more Sabbaths after that, he used the horrific gun death of Dwyane Wade’s cousin to boast that black Americans will “VOTE TRUMP!”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

They were just about to take off when Ivanka spotted a distressed Marla rushing toward the plane. Ivanka tapped Donald to alert him to the figure on the tarmac below. Maybe, she thought, he could tell the pilot to cut the engines. But Donald merely raised his hands. Pretty soon his wife was just a speck on the ground.

“Come on, Dad,” Ivanka said, once they were airborne. “She’s just five minutes late.”

“No, Ivanka,” he replied. “You have to be on time.”

While there has been no shortage of evidence that Donald Trump is an asshole, once in a while I still read something about him that makes me go Jesus Christ what a fucking asshole.
posted by stolyarova at 4:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [60 favorites]

While Ivanka has made her own bed and seems no better than she should be, it's hard not to feel a twinge of pity for someone who was raised to be in the daughtering business. She's been a parentified child all her life.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

More assholeness: Trump’s Alias “John Baron” Threatened An Author Writing A Book On Him In The 1980s

“It was chilling,” Tuccille told BuzzFeed News. “It was chilling because I assumed that John Baron was a higher-up in his organization and that he was threatening me.”

“I think it was so-called John Baron who said I wouldn’t have a pair of socks left to my name if I went ahead with the book,” Tuccille said.

He continued, “I was spooked enough to go home and put all my assets in my wife’s name at the time, praying that she wouldn’t want to divorce me. I figured it was safer in her hands with Trump’s lawyers coming at me.”

Wait that's [real]?

Yes. It's from the HuffPo article about Ivanka.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

why is it so mysterious that Ivanka is just as big an asshole as the rest of them?
posted by zutalors! at 4:20 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

That mentality—if you try to stop me vandalizing your sign, you're vandalizing me—is so insane I can't believe it would be verbalized if it weren't for the general lowering of standards of discourse produced by this wretched election season.

Insane it may be, but it's lurking just under the surface for a lot of white men. I know a little posse of young, conservative/libertarian, tell-it-like-it-is, anti-PC white dudes who post endless memes on Facebook and periodically get into chuckle contests over who can be the edgiest edgelord. They get a good laugh out of baiting people they see as politically correct, daring them to get angry. Sometimes they post memes about Donald Trump from a page called "The God Emperor Trump." I find that page darkly fascinating, because its content skirts the line between ironic jingoism and genuine adulation so fluidly that I don't think its members can tell which one they're actually engaging in.

Anyway, the one thing that these guys cannot fucking abide is when someone anonymously reports one of their posts and Facebook deletes it. They are deeply angered and hurt by this censorship, by the fact that Facebook reserves the right to moderate what they say, and ESPECIALLY by the fact that someone on their friends list can report their bullshit anonymously. They consider it cowardly and childish. "Fuck you, Mark Zuckerberg" has become a refrain, and the #FreeMilo hashtag made the rounds when Twitter permabanned him.

In short, white men are accustomed to forcing the people around them to put up with their shit silently and passively. These particular white men really love it when someone confronts them angrily on the internet, presumably because it's a demonstration of their unflappable power without the stress of a face-to-face altercation. But my God, you should hear them yelp when they encounter limits or consequences to what they say.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 4:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [45 favorites]

And Ivanka may also have adopted some of her father’s borderline business practices. The Trump Organization and its offshoots have a long history of paying its contractors late, insufficiently or not at all. Over the last 30 years, according to an analysis done by USA Today, Donald has been involved in around 3,500 lawsuits, many of which concern his tendency not to pay people for the work they’ve done. When asked about this record this June, both Donald and Ivanka “shrugged off the lawsuits and others claims of non-payment,” according to USA Today. The newspaper summed up their response like so: “If a company or worker [Donald] hires isn’t paid fully … it’s because the Trump Organization was unhappy with the work.”

Ivanka seems to have made use of this approach with one of her own brands, Ivanka Trump Fine Jewelry. [snip] According to a lawsuit filed in the New York Supreme Court, a company her brand partnered with, Madison Avenue Diamonds, currently owes a jewelry manufacturer named KGK $2.4 million, plus interest.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

During the Republican National Convention, NBC’s Savannah Guthrie asked Ivanka about the behavior of certain delegates on the floor—particularly those who were hurling crass language at Hillary Clinton. “Sometimes you hear chants like ‘lock her up’ or ‘guilty,’” Guthrie noted. “Are you comfortable with all that?”
Ivanka smiled widely at Guthrie and replied, “It is certainly exciting. And it is a major production.”

Like? This is disgusting.
posted by zutalors! at 4:27 PM on September 7, 2016 [25 favorites]

The GOP had a great pie chart up on their twitter account. They deleted it but thankfully Steve Koczela grabbed a screen cap.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]

I've been listening to some Keepin' It 1600 episodes today, and they have mentioned numerous times that certain elements of the press are desperately "afraid of being labeled as biased". This bit is nothing new.

What is striking, though, is that when they bring up this fear, it's almost always been about fear of being accused of unfairly labeling Trump's behavior as racist. However, I never seem hear--anywhere--about the press being afraid of being labeled as "sexist" when reporting on Clinton.

I wonder why that is. /s
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [21 favorites]

Fox News’ War on Women Jeet Heer for New Republic

The fact that these incidents of harassment were so common may have contributed to why no one at Fox came forward or filed a lawsuit until now. Ailes’s attitudes about women permeated the very air of the network, from the exclusive hiring of attractive women to the strictly enforced skirts-and-heels dress code to the “leg cam” that lingers on female panelists’ crossed legs on air. It was hard to complain about something that was so normalized. Other senior executives harassed women, too. “Anyone who claimed there was a hostile work environment was seen as a complainer,” says a former Fox employee who says Ailes harassed her. “Or that they can’t take a joke.”

Sherman’s point about Fox’s hiring practices could be extended not just to how women were displayed on screen, but how they were discussed in general. In “70 awful displays of sexism on Fox News,” a supercut video by watchdog group Media Matters, one can hear such gems as Erick Erickson saying men should be “dominant” over wives, Lou Dobbs bemoaning the fact “women have become the breadwinners in this country and a lot of other concerning and troubling statistics,” Brit Hume lamenting “this sort of feminized atmosphere where we exist today,” and Rush Limbaugh chortling, “I love the women’s movement, especially walking behind it.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump says his genitals will have 30 days to figure out a plan to defeat ISIS

Donald Trump: I Will Build the Most Unnecessary Military in the World
posted by homunculus at 4:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jared Yates Sexton ‏@JYSexton
If Trump mounts the jet in the background of the Commander-In-Chief Forum and rides it like a mechanical bull...is that a pivot?

Only an hour and twenty until we find out.
posted by Talez at 4:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Pointless pre - forum Star Spangled Banner rendition on the Intrepid.

Like seriously that was the most pointless thing I've ever seen.
posted by zutalors! at 4:43 PM on September 7, 2016

The JCPL has inexplicably fallen to moderate today, I think my cortisol receptors are burnt out?

I don't understand the WaPo/SurveyMonkey poll. Is this thing for real? It's all over the place. You can't be up 21 in Alabama and only 2 in Mississippi. That don't make no sense at all. And Clinton +1 in Texas but only +2 in Michigan and Wisconsin? Seems like a Magic Eight Ball kinda poll.
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Where are you watching that doesn't have idiotic talking heads?
posted by Talez at 4:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

SurveyMonkey

SurveyMonkey

Hmm
posted by Yowser at 4:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Where are you watching that doesn't have idiotic talking heads?

MSNBC cut to the anthem.
posted by zutalors! at 4:47 PM on September 7, 2016

You(plural), not you(singular), I want to stress in case that was unclear.
posted by corb at 4:51 PM on September 7, 2016

70 Awful Displays Of Sexism On Fox News (Mentioned above)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:51 PM on September 7, 2016

Ivanka smiled widely at Guthrie and replied, “It is certainly exciting. And it is a major production.”

I wonder what it's like to be Chelsea Clinton. Ivanka's her friend, supposedly. Could you be friends with someone who smiled widely and talked about how exciting it is to hear people scream for your mother's head on a stick? Because I'd tear a strip off that "friend" as soon as look at them, were it me...
posted by palomar at 4:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [32 favorites]

Be careful what content you pretend to share.
posted by defenestration at 4:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

For people not in the know, 88 is a white supremacist numerical code for "Heil Hitler."

Well, as one of the organizers of the letter was this man, I think we can be 100% sure that is a coincidence.

I'm not sure who the clerk of the chancellery of neo-Nazi dog whistles is in the Trump organization, but it's not like they'd need to be a mathematical genius or get General Shachnow's buy in on having exactly 88 generals sign the letter as some kind of dog whistle masterstroke. All kinds of "Oh, we didn't get your e-mail in time." games could be played.

Is it probably a coincidence? Yeah, probably. Is there is enough "Holy shit, did they really just say that on TV!?!?!" stuff that's gone down the pike already that I'd be willing to bet more than the price of lunch on it? Tell you what, your choice, 5 Guys or Qdoba.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 4:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh man, that God Emperor Trump stuff is just intolerable. Some of my veteran friends have taken up with that shit and it is in actually enraging. They say things like "I dedicate this achievement to God Emperor Trump" and act like they're just trying to "troll liberals" but I think aren't actually kidding anymore and they may actually vote.

Trump's entire candidacy from start to finish is trolling liberals. It's like a whole heap of spiteful right wingers got together in a room and said "how can we make liberals shit their fucking pants while we laugh our asses off?".
posted by Talez at 4:53 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

They say things like "I dedicate this achievement to God Emperor Trump" and act like they're just trying to "troll liberals" but I think aren't actually kidding anymore and they may actually vote.

If the rise of the alt-right out of chan culture has showed us anything, it's that people who are ironically pretending to be Nazis are, 9 times out of 10, actually just Nazis. Either they were all along and were to cowardly to do it in earnest or they pretended so hard they forgot they were just pretending, but either way the result is the same: Nazis.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:54 PM on September 7, 2016 [49 favorites]

I assume there's something wrong with this idea, but it isn't obvious to me, so:

What would be the result if people who felt that the MSM was unfairly biased in Trump's favor a) directly complained about this to the media in question, loudly and often, and/or b) stopped consuming said media and publicly explained why? Has this been tried?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:54 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

"What is your goal as moderator?"

Let's not beat around the bush. He needs to call people on bullshit.
posted by Talez at 4:56 PM on September 7, 2016

Has there ever been a "commander in chief forum" before? how did this come about???
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:56 PM on September 7, 2016

Has there ever been a "commander in chief forum" before? how did this come about???

Nope. It was the work of a (new?) veterans group.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:59 PM on September 7, 2016

Look, regardless of what you feel about the anthem, this is the one place it is totally, 100% appropriate. The forum is taking place on the Intrepid, a ship that helped defeat the Axis, and the audience is entirely military members, veterans, and military families.

It has nothing to do with how I feel about the anthem. This whole "Commander in Chief forum" is a pretty silly farce. Are we going to have the anthem before every debate? It's silly.

I know what the Intrepid is.
posted by zutalors! at 4:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

So how do I get to the direct stream with Matt Lauer instead of all this bullshit?
posted by Talez at 4:59 PM on September 7, 2016

Has there ever been a "commander in chief forum" before?

Seriously. I've been wondering where this came from too. I thought I'd been paying pretty close attention to the last several elections, and I definitely don't remember this.
posted by diogenes at 5:00 PM on September 7, 2016

I mean we also didn't have an "Hour with the Speaker" before either, but Paul Ryan got one. This whole cycle is cable news trying to pick up pieces from Fox.
posted by zutalors! at 5:02 PM on September 7, 2016

good lord those chairs look uncomfortable
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:04 PM on September 7, 2016

Over/under on how long after Lauer's admonition to avoid attacking the other candidate Trump begins attacking Clinton: 41 seconds.
posted by Justinian at 5:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

The sponsoring group is the IAVA
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are there pillows?
posted by danapiper at 5:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Here's the press release from the group hosting the forum. It seems this is the first such event in a presidential election.
posted by diogenes at 5:05 PM on September 7, 2016

HRC looking composed. My wife just said: PLEASE DON'T COUGH and that is my big worry here too. Fucking breitbart.
posted by dis_integration at 5:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fucking email again
posted by Countess Elena at 5:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Straight to emails. Straight to the fucking emails.
posted by Talez at 5:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Forum stream fired up. LET'S DO THIS COMRADES.
posted by rp at 5:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm telling myself I'm not going to watch the Trump one.
posted by zutalors! at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2016

i can't believe emails is the #2 question. fucking bullshit. he better put trump over the fire too.
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1Sk1g52GFs

seems to work
posted by Golem XIV at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2016

I switched over from the Paralympics, which I watched thinking, boy, it sure is great that I don't have to listen to that idiot Matt Lauer
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fucking email again

At the risk of reopening the can of worms Keeping it 1600 had a good discussion of this on yesterday's episode.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:08 PM on September 7, 2016

Jesus Christ this is a fucking joke.

HRC has the patience of a saint.
posted by Talez at 5:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

i can't believe emails is the #2 question. fucking bullshit. he better put trump over the fire too.

Hahaha it's Matt Lauer.
posted by zutalors! at 5:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

So basically, veterans groups have been more and more frustrated over the last fifteen years of war that questions about them have been few in the debates. Paul Reichoff, the ED of IAVA, which is the biggest org for post 9/11 vets, has been doing a lot of work and negotiations behind the scenes, and since both candidates live in the same city IAVA has its headquarters, they managed to make it happen. It's very exciting and a HUGE deal for vets.
posted by corb at 5:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

And they're going to hammer her on this all night.
posted by Talez at 5:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

All I can say is Lauer better go after Trump with both barrels if this is how they're going to handle the email thing.
posted by Justinian at 5:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

fuck this. #3, emails. just fuck this.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Questions are chosen or influenced by IAVA members, I believe - we were polled on what we wanted asked.
posted by corb at 5:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's very exciting and a HUGE deal for vets

boy are they squandering this with going on about the emails
posted by zutalors! at 5:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

The email thing is bullshit but if they go as hard at Trump on his weak points it might be worth it; I don't think he has ever faced a sustained and consistent grilling on his weakspots in a forum where he could not escape and had to take it.
posted by Justinian at 5:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now with the hawk shit.
posted by rp at 5:15 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here's the bashing from the left!
posted by Talez at 5:15 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel like we need to help make an escape plan for the Merediths on election night
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:00 PM on September 7 [+] [!]

*raises hand* I'm going to need some directions to that boat, please.

(And I'm gonna need that boat to be well stocked with booze.)
posted by kythuen at 5:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

What? An Iran nuclear deal question? What is this? Shouldn't we talk about, like, Benghazi or something?
posted by Justinian at 5:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

They're not going to go hard after Trump. The only benefit here is for Hillary to go on record in front of vets about Iraq and emails so that when Trump tries to hit her on the debates on it she'll have had a bit of practice and precedent speaking to it in front of those who matter the most in terms of decisions about war.
posted by zutalors! at 5:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm going to need some directions to that boat, please.

Merediths and Steves first!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

where's the vince foster and whitewater questions? fuck this.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Shut him down, Hillary. Give me a fucking break.
posted by rp at 5:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We don't have time for your detailed answer... but let me follow up by repeating my gotcha question."
posted by zennie at 5:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

The stacking of the deck here is appalling. Mr. Trump has no record of consequence on which to stand, he's never had to make complex decisions about difficult situations with lives on the line. There's simply no way that the two candidates will receive treatment that's in any way equitable. I'm a little surprised that Secretary Clinton agreed to walk into such a clearly biased forum.
posted by wintermind at 5:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

Yeah this seems unnecessarily adversarial. I'd have tough questions for her but they wouldn't be any of these bullshit questions.
posted by dis_integration at 5:19 PM on September 7, 2016

Corb, you're the closest to the target audience here I think. How's it going?
posted by Francis at 5:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

An undecided voter! They found themselves a unicorn.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:20 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

If this is direction IAVA or whatever is going, I can't imagine another Democratic candidate wasting their time being subjected to the inquisition. Great way to get veteran's issues to the forefront. This is why Democrats rightly think that the military is a lost demographic. Why would she ever agree to another of these?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

More descriptions of the action and what y'all are reacting to please some of us are on bedtime duty again
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm so curious how Trump is going to handle this format. He can't speak coherently for extended periods. Is Lauer going to let him just rant and ramble?
posted by diogenes at 5:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

She appears to be knowledgable and well-briefed.
posted by wintermind at 5:22 PM on September 7, 2016

They might go after Trump, actually. It might not seem like it yet, but IAVA leadership is pretty all in for Clinton. And she got thrown a great question just now and is taking it very well. She's had a lot of personal meetings with IAVA before this forum. Relax, she'll do great.
posted by corb at 5:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

Is Lauer going to let him just rant and ramble?

Probably.
posted by drezdn at 5:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now about military suicides.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:23 PM on September 7, 2016

What petty bullshit besides emails? I'm imagining like Lauer going "Emails, nu?" And waggling his eyebrows for 5 minutes
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:23 PM on September 7, 2016

I'm so curious how Trump is going to handle this format. He can't speak coherently for extended periods. Is Lauer going to let him just rant and ramble?

"Well suicide is bad, we're going to get them therapists, the best therapists and they'll be fine once we get them those therapists".
posted by Talez at 5:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

They might go after Trump, actually.

Exactly. This is way harsher than I thought it would be (though this latest question was pretty straight down the middle. Maybe they want to finish with some softballs) but until we see how Trump is treated I'm suspending judgment.

If Trump gets hammered he could fall apart live on TV.
posted by Justinian at 5:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Defeat of ISIS is HC's top anti-terrorism goal. Will support Iraq and Syria, but no ground troops.
posted by wintermind at 5:24 PM on September 7, 2016

Now about willingness to deploy troops.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:25 PM on September 7, 2016

Syria is a Kobayashi Maru. There's no winning move. Only a least bad move. Until people realize that they're not going to be happy about how anyone handles Syria.
posted by Talez at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

Any hoarseness yet? She got a bottle of water or anything 😅
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2016

Jesus fuck, asking whether she cares about attacks in the US.
DELETE UR ACCOUNT
posted by rp at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now about terror attacks on our soil.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2016

Ramadi, Fallujah, Mosul... do you think the vulgar talking yam knows any of those?
posted by jammer at 5:26 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Trump gets hammered he could fall apart live on TV.

Just like a Clinton Blackberry.
posted by zutalors! at 5:27 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Terror attacks on US soil - are they a fact of life, can HC guarantee Americans will be safer after her first term?

Need to be smarter, disrupt online radicalization. Need to pass law banning terrorist watch list members from purchasing firearms. We cannot turn on Muslims.
posted by wintermind at 5:27 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Need to pass law banning terrorist watch list members from purchasing firearms.

ugh disagree so hard.
posted by zutalors! at 5:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ramadi, Fallujah, Mosul... do you think the vulgar talking yam knows any of those?

"I will bomb the shit out of those Iranians!"
posted by Talez at 5:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Matt Lauer tried to shame her with the "we tried not to talk about the other guy" stuff. Asshole.
posted by zutalors! at 5:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

replaying the email shit on the stream
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:28 PM on September 7, 2016

And Scene!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

She brought up Trump what, one time? Let's see how Trump does with bringing up Clinton.
posted by Justinian at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2016

Halftime hitpieces.
posted by rp at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2016

I'm not going to relitigate that, just trying to describe the goings-on.
posted by wintermind at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2016

A half hour for "who will be the best Commander in Chief"? Seriously? Fail.
posted by zutalors! at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pleez, pleez ask Trump a question about cyberwarfare.
posted by puddledork at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

I see the Trump Family marching in
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:30 PM on September 7, 2016

"Distrust, but verify" wasn't for me, but it was a nice touch.
posted by box at 5:30 PM on September 7, 2016

this stream Is pro Trump but not obnoxious. Currently muting commercials.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2016

Clinton's answers were good, detailed, solid. Trump's are going to be crap.

Tomorrow, Trump's going to be bragging about how many more questions he answered than Hillary.
posted by zennie at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't a question about the Khans be appropriate for Trump? Since this is about veterans?
posted by zutalors! at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I was seeing a Trump ad in Vermont. Is that national, or did they just decide to piss away a few ten thousand?
posted by Countess Elena at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The crowd appeared to all clap for Hillary but not Trump? Did I see that wrong?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2016

He does look nervous, and older than I noticed.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:32 PM on September 7, 2016

Need to pass law banning terrorist watch list members from purchasing firearms.

man i am about as pro gun control as you can get and really wish the democrats hadn't chosen this for their wedge on the issue. no evidence the terror watch list is useful for any purpose, let alone arbitrarily restricting a constitutional right. just make it harder for EVERYONE to casually purchase firearms already.
posted by murphy slaw at 5:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

WTF was that music when Trump came out?
posted by guiseroom at 5:32 PM on September 7, 2016

Nope. He's not popular with veterans, much less NYC veterans.
posted by corb at 5:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Lauer couldn't even get Trump to agree to not attack Hillary
posted by zutalors! at 5:32 PM on September 7, 2016

Here it comes.

He looks so presidential.
posted by rp at 5:32 PM on September 7, 2016

Are you fucking kidding me? First question softball over the plate?

ASK HIM ABOUT STDS BEING HIS PERSONAL VIETNAM YOU FUCKER!
posted by Talez at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well were off to a good start, Trump asks if he should answer a declarative statement.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump agrees to keep attacks to a minimum. Appears to think its a question.

What's happened in his life to prepare him to be CinC?

Built a great company , traveled the world, knows how to deal with China and Russia, has great judgment, was against the Iraq war.
posted by wintermind at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2016

First question is a softball.
posted by diogenes at 5:33 PM on September 7, 2016

the lies are pouring out. balls in your court lauer - oops, lauer just watches the ball go by.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

Didn't say "oh we had an agreement" to Trump about not attacking Clinton.
posted by zutalors! at 5:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Against the war in Iraq, Lauer lets it go.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

went to mexico, lied, got a diplomat fired. Did great! it was great.
posted by dis_integration at 5:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

That...does not look like the crowd I'd expect of the IAVA. It looks more like your standard pre-9/11 aging veterans crowd.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:35 PM on September 7, 2016

I am doing my best to watch this, but it's hard to hear Trump over the high-pitched shrieking noise I am making.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:35 PM on September 7, 2016 [32 favorites]

Does Trump have temperament to be President when he says intemperate things?

He beat 16 people to be there, wishes he had done it more nicely. We can afford to take risk with him, look at how he did in Mexico last week. Takes credit for political shake ups in Mexico. He knows more about ISIS than generals because of Obama's poor leadership.
posted by wintermind at 5:35 PM on September 7, 2016

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS? IT'S GOING TO BE THE SAME GENERALS YOU FUCKING CHEETO!
posted by Talez at 5:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

lauer pressing in a little harder now on bullshit things trump has said.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:36 PM on September 7, 2016

We need change b/c Clinton has been "there" for 30 years.
posted by wintermind at 5:36 PM on September 7, 2016

"The people in Mexico who arranged the trip have been forced out of government. That's how well we did."
posted by box at 5:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Nonstop references to Clinton and Obama. Nothing answers, nonstop.
posted by rp at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's insulting the military. wtf
posted by chaoticgood at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Knows more than generals." How will that play with this crowd?
posted by thebrokedown at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016

Next question: "Mr Trump, your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train. Why are you so popular?"

[fake, so far]
posted by Talez at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Talez, he'll probably fire the people there now. All of them.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016

oh god i don't have enough wine for this in the house.
posted by dis_integration at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

trump literally just mansplained that iraq has oil
posted by dis_integration at 5:38 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm glad I checked this thread before I go downstairs for food. I share a house with my parents and they'll be watching this right now. At this point I can't handle hearing him speak. Makes me feel ill. Reading and reading summaries about it are fine. Even in the car when a news story comes out and they play a quote I have to turn down the volume until he's done.

I will read and keep checking while looking forward to popcorn and ice cream when he's done.
posted by Jalliah at 5:38 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't understand how anyone can vote for this bloated, overstuffed cheeto.
posted by Justinian at 5:38 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

If we defeat ISIS, what next? How do you prevent next ISIS?

Word salad about how Iraq pullout was a disaster. If we'd taken their oil, ISIS wouldn't have formed. People don't know that Iraq has lots of oil. Used to be, to the victor go the spoils.
posted by wintermind at 5:38 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

"To the victor, belong the spoils" "Take the oil" would have stymied ISIS.
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Take the oil."
[REAL]

"People don't know this about Iraq, they have all the oil."

[REAL]
posted by rp at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

People don't know Iraq has oil? what?
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

TAKE THE OIL
posted by yellowbinder at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Planning to take provinces in Nobunaga's Ambition required more forethought than he just gave about taking a nation's oil
posted by Countess Elena at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

He sounds like a blithering idiot.
posted by chaoticgood at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump: "She's been there for thirty years." [real]

Thirty years ago, Hillary Clinton was First Lady of Arkansas. I wasn't aware that was an office that had such a big influence on the U.S. military command.
posted by mbrubeck at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

You have to admit "Has the plan you've been hiding this whole time been to ask someone else for their plan?" was a good line.
posted by Justinian at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [36 favorites]

This is complete word salad. There's not a single coherent thought here yet.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

OMG this answer is a disaster...
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lauer is actually doing a decent job. Kind of shocked.
posted by melissasaurus at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh man, this is the best thing ever. We love our generals. He basically called several icons incompetent. I am cackling over here. I want to send flowers to Reichoff.
posted by corb at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [36 favorites]

Is Trump's plan to delegate making a plan to others?

If he likes the generals' plan, he may use it, but he won't tell for sure, secrecy is important. He'd have different generals than the current ones. We've had dumb foreign policy.
posted by wintermind at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016

Just chanting MAGA like he's one of his own fans
posted by Countess Elena at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016

Wait if he wants to take the oil why was he opposed to the Iraq war??? lol
posted by acidic at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

does he know that most of the oil is still underground
posted by murphy slaw at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

trump has a secret plan...is this playing with anyone???
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016

I must be behind, comments are showing up here before my stream gets to him sputtering.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2016

"It used to be, to the victor goes the spoils." I can't even tell how this is playing, but to me, what a disaster.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Matt: Is your plan to ask someone else if they have a plan [real]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hmm it's sounds like I should be really worried about how he's going to do in the debates....
posted by Jalliah at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

LAUER YOU JUST OPEN THE FUCKING DOOR FOR THAT?!?

What the fuck, man?
posted by Talez at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is complete word salad. There's not a single coherent thought here yet.

Uppers, then.
posted by holgate at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

You have far more faith in humanity then me, Corb.
posted by Yowser at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

y'all are giving me strength, just fyi
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Should... should Trump really be talking about the intelligence briefings like this? It's reminding me of nothing so much of the Head Bug Guy Senator talking about the secret intelligence briefing they received about Syria on Braindead. This is not a good comparison for Trump.
posted by Justinian at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Did you learn anything surprising in your security briefings?

Yes, claims the current administration did not follow expert recommendations. He can tell they [briefers] were unhappy b/c he's good with body language.
posted by wintermind at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

STDS PERSONAL VIETNAM

MCCAIN ISN'T A HERO

FOUR DEFERMENTS

I WAS AGAINST IRAQ

TAKE YOUR FUCKING PICK LAUER. TAKE YOUR FUCKING PICK.
posted by Talez at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [35 favorites]

Does he think he's getting new generals?
posted by diogenes at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

lolll did Lauer just try to bait Trump into revealing classified information?
posted by acidic at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

I will take comfort that the people in that room are not fucking fooled by this.
posted by wallabear at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh man, this is the best thing ever. We love our generals. He basically called several icons incompetent. I am cackling over here. I want to send flowers to Reichoff.

I was actually going to ask how y'all felt when Trump slags the generals and leadership. But the thread is moving too fast. So that doesn't play well at all? That was my guess but I'm never sure about these things.
posted by Justinian at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2016

He's pretty good with the body language. Okay, then.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2016

Do undocumented people who plan to serve in the military deserve to say in the US?

Yes, but we have to be careful w/screening.
posted by wintermind at 5:43 PM on September 7, 2016

I think the [real] tag is going to catch fire and burn my browser down.
posted by Surely This at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

He's probably referring to the retired generals that grovel to him rather than the actual generals who run the armed forces.
posted by vathek at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think he would have a very good relationship with many foreign leaders too, just not good for the rest of us
posted by Countess Elena at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Does he think he's getting new generals?

All the best generals. General Mills, General Electric, General Absurdity.
posted by holgate at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [45 favorites]

the storied history of air force one. wtf?
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016

Does he think he's getting new generals?

He probably thinks that generals are like the cabinet: the President gets to appoint all new ones.
posted by dersins at 5:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

All the best generals. General Mills, General Electric, General Absurdity.

Sadly he'll be missing General Knowledge.
posted by Talez at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [37 favorites]

Trump: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a relationship with Russia?"
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

How would you de-escalate tensions and bring Russians to the table?

He'd have good relations with Russia and Putin, Stairgate. Russia wants to defeat ISIS badly, too, we could have a beautiful partnership.
posted by wintermind at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2016

Stairs, SAD!
posted by rp at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yassss Lauer crushing him on Putin.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

General Disarray
posted by drezdn at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Please tell me someone has a transcript of that Putin answer because I broke my brain listening to it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

All the best generals. General Mills, General Electric, General Absurdity.

General Disorder. General Ignorance.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

I was actually going to ask how y'all felt when Trump slags the generals and leadership.

Like any big org, the military has some great leaders and some truly awful shitheads at the top. It's a huge organization. Some people get to the top by virtue of talent and hard work. Others actually get promoted out of one person's hair and into someone else's, i.e., "You fuck up, you move up."

Really it all depends on your personal experience in the military. I reflexively roll my eyes when I hear officers (in general) described as great leaders. Funny enough, so do some officers.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

WE'RE GONNA TAKE BACK OUR COUNTRY!
posted by wintermind at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Literally all Trump is doing is criticizing Obama.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

"we're losing our jobs like a bunch of babies"

Do babies lose jobs when they're fired like a dog?
posted by dis_integration at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [20 favorites]

"We're a bunch of babies."
Said to said babies.
[REAL]
posted by rp at 5:46 PM on September 7, 2016

Losing our jobs like a bunch of babies. How did the babies get jobs in the first place?
posted by vathek at 5:47 PM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

Pretty amazing that he won't say anything negative about Putin.
posted by diogenes at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Omg he's praising dictatorship (kid finally went to sleep). He's literally praising Putins "control" over his country. HES PROMISING TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [53 favorites]

Babies do not have jobs.
posted by box at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

digging himself a grave commending Putin on his ability to hold russia under his thumb
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016

I didn't even know this was happening until the thread pivoted...wish you folks would throw out a shout out that these debates are happening! (I know this is my responsibility to know about it too but damn I thought I was on the cutting edge of knowledge following this thread!)
posted by agregoli at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016

BABIES: JOB LOSING LOSERS. SAD!!!!
posted by dersins at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Wow, full on fawning over how great Putin is!
posted by diogenes at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Do you think [Putin] is going to change his mind about all these things?"

"Possibly."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016

Maybe the Gerber baby?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016

oh cool the idea of Trump replacing the military leadership isn't insanely terrifying at all...
posted by jason_steakums at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

What is your actual plan to support veterans?

He has a very powerful plan on his website. Clinton makes up half of what she says about him. People are dying while waiting for care. Just proposed single-payer for veterans.
posted by wintermind at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016

He's so obsessed with himself and the polls.
posted by chaoticgood at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

people are dying online waiting to see a doctor
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Babies do not have jobs.

Not yet, at least.
posted by drezdn at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's promising to bring back child labor and then fire the children for being babies. [Mostly False}
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

I have tequila. But also work in the morning.

*trumpty trumping*

Tequila, then.
posted by zennie at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

He would not privatize VA because of respect for veterans. I may have had a small stroke trying to parse that.
posted by wintermind at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

It is kind of funny that he waits for his applause, like on the "wouldn't it be great if we got along with Russia" line and isn't getting it
posted by zutalors! at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump is going to be Putin on the ritz.
posted by guiseroom at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

is clinton managing to keep the well-earned eye rolling to a minimum
posted by murphy slaw at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016

Vets are waiting five or six days to see a doctor!

Nice of him to remind us that he has no idea what it's like to be a normal human.
posted by Etrigan at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [40 favorites]

Literally all Trump is doing is criticizing Obama.

Well, that's his pitch -- everything is terrible, and it's Obama's fault, and Clinton is promising more of the same.

Boy howdy, I thought I could get through this, but dang.

It's more tolerable with this window open and audio only, but still not actually tolerable.
posted by notyou at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016

OMG his proposed plan is a thing that actually exists already in the VA.
posted by corb at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [20 favorites]

Point for Trump, he IDed the main complaint about the VA, Clinton didn't.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016

Did he really just WELL ACTUALLY a lady veteran asking about suicide?
posted by zennie at 5:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [36 favorites]

Corrects the woman who lost two friends to suicide on her vet suicide statistics.
posted by zutalors! at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

Oh, of course he corrects the female vet and then says the same number.
posted by Etrigan at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [42 favorites]

He gets really fucking enthusiastic thinking about how Putin runs Russia, doesn't he?
posted by holgate at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've got to tell you, I would like to kick Trump to death, but he's sounding pretty good.
posted by OmieWise at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016

He's willing to send patients outside the VA, but not privatize the VA? hmmmmmmmmmm....
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016

this group had no questions about the Khans?
posted by zutalors! at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016

What do the different color vet hats mean? bRanch?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016

Sexual assault question!!! I wish Clinton got to answer it though. :(
posted by melissasaurus at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016

Not only did he correct her - she said 20, he said 22 - but then immediately after he said "20 to 22 veterans kill themselves each day."
posted by vathek at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

is clinton managing to keep the well-earned eye rolling to a minimum

For her own sake she's no longer in the room.

Also he's really fucking up this rape question.
posted by dis_integration at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sexual assault in the military.
Question from a father whose daughter is considering military.
Lauer calling Trump on tweet.
posted by rp at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016

Nice of him to remind us that he has no idea what it's like to be a normal human.

Or have a normal doctor.
posted by holgate at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Did he just slag off the whole military justice system
posted by Countess Elena at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

he's sounding pretty good

How's that grading on a curve going?
posted by zutalors! at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Says VA is corrupt, the shady pro-Trump YT feed I'm watching immediately dies.
posted by box at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

What will Trump specifically do to support victims of sexual assault in the military?

We need to setup a new court system within the military. Many people think that mixing men and women is the cause of the problem, nobody's doing anything about it.
posted by wintermind at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Set up a court system in the military? What a great idea! Why didn't someone think of that before?
posted by Etrigan at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [45 favorites]

Just let him skate by on that sexism with a shit eating grin.
posted by Talez at 5:53 PM on September 7, 2016

Matt Lauer just read a horrific sexist tweet right to Trumps face about women being raped in the military. It was a kick right in the dick and trump didn't recover at all. I'm screaming.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:53 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

He's complaining about how hard he's working on his big campaign.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:53 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

wait, back up here.

Trump knows facts? Like actually figures on things he hast just pulled out of his arse?

That's a bit of a change. Someomes been puttog him through the paces on prep.
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

He reads admirals and generals each morning, apparently.
posted by vathek at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

NBC just killed my feed :(
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2016

What homework us Trump doing now to prepare for being President?

He meets often with 88 generals and admirals, running a campaign, running a business, constantly meeting and learning. He has a common-sense approach to issues.
posted by wintermind at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2016

Didn't do the homework.
posted by rp at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2016

He's wearing a lot of hats right now...
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:54 PM on September 7, 2016

I'm trying to be generally accurate, but this is going quickly.
posted by wintermind at 5:55 PM on September 7, 2016

That's a bit of a change. Someomes been puttog him through the paces on prep.

oh yeah. stats on assault, so many stats, you can't imagine the stats. Wow has he been working hard.
posted by zutalors! at 5:55 PM on September 7, 2016

WE'RE TALKING DEATH ALL OVER
posted by dis_integration at 5:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

How many hats will he keep wearing as President, Matt?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016

Someone sat him down and told him how to talk about nuclear war. Be very sad and serious, they said
posted by Countess Elena at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

that wasn't the question cheeto mcshitgibbon. answer the question. make him answer the question lauer.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

"they" were asking him questions about Iraq 14 yrs ago...who's they? and what were those questions....?
posted by OHenryPacey at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump would be very cautious about committing American lives, Clinton has a happy (?) trigger finger. Our military is depleted, but the people are great.
posted by wintermind at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016

Lauer did not stop Trump from bashing Clinton even one time. Not one time.
posted by zutalors! at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

She has a happy trigger

You know who else had a happy trigger?
posted by perspicio at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

My theme is "make America great again." And it's also "make America strong again."
posted by rp at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016

Did he just say she has a happy trigger? I don't think Hillary will be selling those in the store anytime soon.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:57 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Are you guys looking at the faces in the audience? These are influencers for every major veteran org, and they kind of want to hit him right now.
posted by corb at 5:57 PM on September 7, 2016 [44 favorites]

My impression is that Mr. Trump did a poor job on the questions, and will be crowned the "winner" because he didn't actually fling feces at anyone.
posted by wintermind at 5:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

Are you guys looking at the faces in the audience? These are influencers for every major veteran org, and they kind of want to hit him right now.

You make me slightly happier about this whole affair. What do you think pissed them off the most?
posted by Talez at 5:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

He will also be declared the winner because he didn't say anything about the content of his briefings
posted by zutalors! at 5:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lauer did not stop Trump from bashing Clinton even one time. Not one time.

It would be like trying to stop the waves from bashing the beach.
posted by dersins at 5:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

So C- for Trump. Didn't totally blow it but lots of questions were unanswered body blows with him stuttering in the aftermath. I'm sure CNN is reporting how presidential his fucking tie is but if this is a preview of the debates she's going to squish him.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have a feeling that some wise guy in a Pentagon basement is gonna name something Operation Happy Trigger within the week.
posted by Etrigan at 5:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

These are influencers for every major veteran org, and they kind of want to hit him right now.

I had no idea this was happening until this thread exploded and I caught like the last 30 seconds of Trump and then the crowd shot and that was a group of people that looked like their applause was happening under duress. So I have no idea what was said, who the audience even is, but my quick vibe was that they did not like the Cheeto.
posted by nubs at 6:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

So, press corps[e], are you going to ask Trump which generals are going to get the "you're fired" treatment? Chuck Todd said it "will become an issue", but only if the will is there to make it one.
posted by holgate at 6:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are you guys looking at the faces in the audience? These are influencers for every major veteran org, and they kind of want to hit him right now.

I have reservations about a group that was more interested in the emails than the treatment of the Khan family.
posted by zutalors! at 6:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [48 favorites]

He will also be declared the winner because he didn't say anything about the content of his briefings

Didn't he go on, at length, about the content of his briefs during one of the Republican debat - oh, briefings.

Never mind.
posted by nubs at 6:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ivanka looked a little pale tbh. The Trump camp in the audience was not relaxed, confident.
posted by Mothlight at 6:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

He was just so vague, even on the accusations. Sure, he was able to sprinkle in a few stats, but it was more in the style of the debater who knows a few Plato quotes and just says whatever to bridge them. He's still just word salad. It's hard to judge how this will play in the large to the media, but it seems to me like another performance where Trump said enough to make the true believers think he won but didn't say enough to broaden his appeal any.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Didn't know Maddow would be following up. Still glued.
posted by rp at 6:02 PM on September 7, 2016

MSNBC follows up with Maddow. I'm pleasantly surprised.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:02 PM on September 7, 2016

I hope corb is right and those vetaran's orgs write their memberships. Because I don't trust the media to not grade him on a curve, as we've been saying.
posted by R343L at 6:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't think bashing the generals is going to test well.

And I can't imagine anyone buying his answer about having a secret plan for ISIS but also he will ask the generals for a plan. (Apparently the generals will be getting smarter in his first 30 days of office).
posted by diogenes at 6:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey Matt Lauer, here's the question, "You said you'd always tell the truth, so how come Politifact say that you're full of shit three quarters of the time?"
posted by Talez at 6:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

This feed Is still up, BTW.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:04 PM on September 7, 2016

I was watching YouTube chat on a few of the streams, and I know what to expect but still it was horrifying. I guess I'm finally old because I'm worrying about our youth growing up as part of that jeering throng.
posted by yellowbinder at 6:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

C'est la DC: Did he just say she has a happy trigger? I don't think Hillary will be selling those in the store anytime soon.

She could totally sell them - something with a "VOTE" theme...
posted by Surely This at 6:04 PM on September 7, 2016

"The generals have been reduced to rubble." "I'm gonna consult with the generals." "They'll probably be different generals."
posted by wallabear at 6:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

this is weird and gross.

corb, i really value your comments here!!

also, i started out thinking lauer was being too hard on hillary, but he set us up for this glory.
posted by waitangi at 6:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

IAVA seems to be trying very hard to make Trump look human and legitimate on Twitter.

A couple years ago, when I started making decent money as a writer, I decided to devote a chunk of profits to a veteran's charity. I pay bills with made-up war stories, so I wanted to do something for people who've dealt with the real thing. After some research, I chose the IAVA.

This is starting to make me wish I'd chosen someone else. :/
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

So, I'm wondering how well - if at all - this forum was actually publicized in general? The only reason I knew about is because "Jess" (from HRC camp) texted me to ask if I'd be watching. (Disclaimer, I don't have cable/TV and basically get my news from y'all, so who dropped the ball is really what I'm asking...why'd I have to hear about this from Jess?)
posted by danapiper at 6:05 PM on September 7, 2016

Maddow getting super duper hot takes from the crowd now?
posted by jammer at 6:06 PM on September 7, 2016

MSNBC follows up with Maddow. I'm pleasantly surprised

This is her timeslot.
posted by zutalors! at 6:06 PM on September 7, 2016

Oh, Maddow has some of the same audience there.

This is her timeslot.

Not a guarantee by any means.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was constitutionally unsuited* to watching Trump speak live, but I did watch Rachel's replay of Lauer going after him on "do you have a plan" -- and that was awesome. Trump looked like a complete idiot.

* read as: not drunk enough
posted by kythuen at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

So, I'm wondering how well - if at all - this forum was actually publicized in general?

IAVA made a big deal about it on Twitter, but if you're not following them I'm not sure how else you would find out about it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:08 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is her timeslot.

Not a guarantee by any means.

Eh, this is pretty weak praise for MSNBC. It's her timeslot, and this whole thing is a gratuitous attention grab for NBC/MSNBC, including Maddow.
posted by zutalors! at 6:09 PM on September 7, 2016

Secret payments to Iran, this audience is extremely well versed in alt-right messaging.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

lauer had his hands around shitgibbon's throat a dozen times and let go. every. single. time. the cheetoid needs to be interrupted, repeatedly, with each irrelevance tossed back in his face, each stupid thing called out as stupid, and faced with a refusal to move forward one iota until the question is answered. a couple minutes of that and he would ignite. in front of the whole planet. and lauer could have been the man who exposed that. but he wimped.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [34 favorites]

Marine Cpl (ret): Wishes either candidate would have talked about vet homelessness. "We just shipped secretly a couple billion dollars over to Iran". Sigh.
posted by jammer at 6:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump was like a kid stumbling through a book report without having read the book.

Lauer: What is your plan for ISIS.
Trump (paraphrasing here): I have a really good plan, but it's a secret. I would also ask the generals for a plan. And then I would compare the plans, and I would use the best parts of both of them.

Come on! How does that fly!
posted by diogenes at 6:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

So, I'm wondering how well - if at all - this forum was actually publicized in general?

MS/NBC promoted it. The candidates at least mentioned it.

It's her timeslot, and this whole thing is a gratuitous attention grab for NBC/MSNBC, including Maddow.

SOP is to dump into a panel roundup.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm so pissed off by this bullshit. Forget grading on the curve. They gave Clinton the AP exam and Trump got the remedial pop quiz.
posted by Talez at 6:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [34 favorites]

SOP is to dump into a panel roundup.

what's your point, that Maddow is going to be the liberal voice standing up here? She hasn't done that very much this cycle.
posted by zutalors! at 6:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Y'know what's really driving me nuts about how Trump gets graded on a curve and gets so much softball treatment from news anchors?

It's that somewhere in the offices of NBC, the NYT, NPR and the rest, there are editors (I'll assume white dudes) who honestly think this is obviously what you should do. They probably think that's the way to be fair. They've probably convinced themselves that this is what they're supposed to do.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

On rewatch, HRC had no entry music, and DJT had that terrible WTF entry noise (at his request maybe? No, no one would do that to themselves, right?).

Also, I didn't count but the number of times HRC was interrupted by Lauer versus number of time DJT was seems a bit... unbalanced. Granted the word salad tended to be briefer than the answers of substance but I still find it annoying. As a woman who gets interrupted a lot.
posted by danapiper at 6:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

If you put the ISIS answers side by side, it's so obvious that Clinton knows what she's talking about and Trump doesn't know anything. He literally doesn't have any actual thoughts on the subject of fighting ISIS.
posted by diogenes at 6:15 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you watched on a feed, the entry music is often dubbed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

The blog for MAD Magazine (MAD has a blog? EVERYBODY has a blog.) has been doing some quality ridicule of Dismal Donald recently, including this one following the statement from his"88 Military Supporters". Some funny stuff and related to his Generals statements (still, I doubt that he'd be supported by "Captain Obvious"). But will he replace current Generals with Colonel Mustard and Captain Underpants? Maybe.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:16 PM on September 7, 2016

If it comforts you guys, a lot of the vets present are now exploding on Facebook about what an offensive idiot Trump is.
posted by corb at 6:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [99 favorites]

OK, this bit seems like its mostly a chance for the guy from IAVA to say that this was great but they need more time to go into details.

(Please, do.)
posted by jammer at 6:17 PM on September 7, 2016

I don't know who this IAVA guy is, but he's a pro
posted by Yowser at 6:18 PM on September 7, 2016

If it comforts you guys, a lot of the vets present are now exploding on Facebook about what an offensive idiot Trump is.

If these are public posts, links might make us feel better. I could use more sensible veteran voices than just Jim Wright at Stonekettle.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

what's your point, that Maddow is going to be the liberal voice standing up here?

I was expecting a panel with the usual suspects, so I guess?

If it comforts you guys, a lot of the vets present are now exploding on Facebook about what an offensive idiot Trump is.

It does.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Did not watch, but wouldn't have this been more effective if they were both asked the exact same questions?
posted by anastasiav at 6:20 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Corb, is it pretty universal dislike, or are people also praising Trump's answers?
posted by diogenes at 6:20 PM on September 7, 2016

Wow Trump was against the war in '04. What a forward thinker.
posted by Yowser at 6:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

wouldn't have this been more effective if they were both asked the exact same questions?

About her emails?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

If these are public posts, links might make us feel better.

Yes, I'd like to see these posts.
posted by cashman at 6:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

what's your point, that Maddow is going to be the liberal voice standing up here?

I was expecting a panel with the usual suspects, so I guess?

oh don't worry, there will be lots of softball questions to the Trump supporters by Maddow.
posted by zutalors! at 6:22 PM on September 7, 2016

If it comforts you guys, a lot of the vets present are now exploding on Facebook about what an offensive idiot Trump is.

Similar results here. Currently fighting the urge so bad to say "where the fuck have you BEEN?". Won't do it, though. This is one of those things you can't tell someone, they have to have it be their own idea or they dig in against you.
posted by ctmf at 6:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Matt Lauer totally blew it on Trump’s blatant lying about Iraq and Libya
posted by zutalors! at 6:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does Trump think that the President appoints generals? I am genuinely confused.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

As always, corb, the insight and perspective you provide is much appreciated.
posted by defenestration at 6:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

Does Trump think that the President appoints generals?

The President does appoint generals.
posted by dis_integration at 6:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Did not watch, but wouldn't have this been more effective if they were both asked the exact same questions?

I don't think the exact same quetions would have been necessary, but I wouldn't have minded at least Lauer and an audience member taking up half of Trump's time with "Hey, what was up with that Khan family thing?" over and over again.
posted by Etrigan at 6:25 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Does Trump think that the President appoints generals?

I'd wager a pint that a not-insubstantial portion of the public think so, too.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:25 PM on September 7, 2016

corb: If it comforts you guys, a lot of the vets present are now exploding on Facebook about what an offensive idiot Trump is.

Clinton never really got a chance to address her vote on the AUMF. I hope that she'll use the anniversary (Sept 18) as an opportunity to address the veterans of the Gulf War II about specifically how she not only regrets what happened, but feels that there was deception involved in the selling of the Joint Resolution.
posted by Surely This at 6:25 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Surely this...
posted by rp at 6:27 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just so we're clear, the president does appoint generals. here is the relevant us code. Who else would appoint them?
posted by dis_integration at 6:27 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clinton didn't even get a question on military sexual assault, did she? Like, at all?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Does Trump think that the President appoints generals? I am genuinely confused.

The President can put a general into a job if he really wants him there (viz. Clinton and Wesley Clark). The President can't pull Patton II out of thin fuckin' air, but he or she will have a huge amount of influence over who would be leading the fight against ISIS etc.
posted by Etrigan at 6:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clinton never really got a chance to address her vote on the AUMF.

She really did. She totally Knoped it, though.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:29 PM on September 7, 2016

And now it's turned into a weird enlisted vs officer proxy war.

I'm out
posted by Yowser at 6:30 PM on September 7, 2016

but he or she will have a huge amount of influence over who would be leading the fight against ISIS

In the first 30 days?
posted by diogenes at 6:31 PM on September 7, 2016

I'm not sure who the clerk of the chancellery of neo-Nazi dog whistles is in the Trump organization, but it's not like they'd need to be a mathematical genius or get General Shachnow's buy in on having exactly 88 generals sign the letter as some kind of dog whistle masterstroke. All kinds of "Oh, we didn't get your e-mail in time." games could be played.

Yeah, pretty much my point. In the video posted here, Gen. Flynn basically says that they have more support rolling in every day but they decided that 88 was a pretty good number to cut it off and go to press with.
posted by peeedro at 6:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Clinton didn't even get a question on military sexual assault, did she? Like, at all?

No, they sang the national anthem and got all these people out on the Intrepid just to ask Hillary Clinton about her email server.
posted by zutalors! at 6:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

The 88 Generals... I'm sure somebody in the Trump team said "get us 100 Generals" and that was all they could get before they ran out of time. Then Hillary's team got 95 in 24 hours... expect that number to grow after tonight.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:35 PM on September 7, 2016

Can anyone explaini how Generals work... Seriously? I legitimately want to know how the process of making some one a general goes.
posted by drezdn at 6:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The 88 Generals... I'm sure somebody in the Trump team said "get us 100 Generals" and that was all they could get before they ran out of time.
Well, it sure is a convenient number.

Quick personal anecdote: my partner's sister was, for a while a couple years ago, dating a dude who played real well with her then 7-year old son. His shirt was unbuttoned enough when they were visiting that I saw the Iron Cross tattoo on his chest. I mentioned how fucking scary that was, and it was kind of brushed off. The dude later went racist apeshit.

But I'm sure it's coincidental.
posted by rp at 6:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

Just so we're clear, the president does appoint generals. here is the relevant us code. Who else would appoint them?

Thanks for that. But he's proposing to...I don't know, fire all the current generals and appoint a fresh batch? Can the President do that?

Senate confirmation of hundred of generals might pose a problem though.

Whatevs, I'm clearly out of my depth on this issue.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:38 PM on September 7, 2016

Trump is just making a subtle nod of support to his pianist friends.
posted by drezdn at 6:38 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

And it's official - there's an arrest warrant out for Stein.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:40 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can anyone explaini how Generals work... Seriously? I legitimately want to know how the process of making some one a general goes.

Up or out, and there's a statutory number of 3 and 4 stars. So every very successful career army officer finishes as a "general", and if they don't curry the favor of the president, that's the end of their career. There's a constant cycle of generals getting promoted and retiring, there's a shitload of former generals to choose from, so an endorsement from a few is worth basically dick-all.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

(In ham radio "88" is code for hugs and kisses)
posted by drezdn at 6:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Whatevs, I'm clearly out of my depth on this issue.

You and Trump both. I'm ok with one of those...
posted by diogenes at 6:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Can anyone explaini how Generals work... Seriously? I legitimately want to know how the process of making some one a general goes.

US Code section 601

(a) The President may designate positions of importance and responsibility to carry the grade of general or admiral or lieutenant general or vice admiral. The President may assign to any such position an officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps who is serving on active duty in any grade above colonel or, in the case of an officer of the Navy, any grade above captain. An officer assigned to any such position has the grade specified for that position if he is appointed to that grade by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. Except as provided in subsection (b), the appointment of an officer to a grade under this section for service in a position of importance and responsibility ends on the date of the termination of the assignment of the officer to that position

[some filler]

(d)
(1) When an officer is recommended to the President for an initial appointment to the grade of lieutenant general or vice admiral, or for an initial appointment to the grade of general or admiral, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff shall submit to the Secretary of Defense the Chairman’s evaluation of the performance of that officer as a member of the Joint Staff and in other joint duty assignments. The Secretary of Defense shall submit the Chairman’s evaluation to the President at the same time the recommendation for the appointment is submitted to the President.

Short story: Someone suggests an officer for appointment to general. The president chats with the Secretary of Defense about it. He recommends them for appointment. The senate gives their consent.
posted by dis_integration at 6:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think, as Josh Barro says, this should point to HRC's debate strategy: push back, push back, press for real answers, don't let bullshit stand, encourage the word salad and provoke the worst of his awfulness. I honestly think there's room for her to say "come on, that's BS" on the stage, because how he reacts to that (consider how he left Marla Maples at the airport) will be telling.

How that comes across (because 'from a woman', ugh) depends a lot on the media attitude, but she may be watching re-runs of Megyn Kelly as part of her prep.
posted by holgate at 6:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I hope the lady he "well actually'd" goes on Twitter and instigates another Khan shit show for him.
posted by ctmf at 6:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

Reince complains that Hillary didn't smile. I frankly believe she did and I saw her do so. I don't remember whether Trump did - maybe so, that awful gurn of his - but I know it wouldn't matter a damn bit either way.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hillary had a great response to Reince.
posted by drezdn at 6:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

It drives me nuts that I spend more time thinking about what Trump is actually saying than Trump does. He doesn't know or care how generals are appointed. And it doesn't matter. Because everything he said on the subject is made up bullshit with no relationship to reality. And yet here we are trying to parse it.
posted by diogenes at 6:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [22 favorites]

Have we done "Talk less, smile more" as a thread title yet?
posted by drezdn at 6:47 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

Anderson Cooper has a bunch of general types on all going WTF about Trumps crazy evil oil stealing policy. Cooper keeps calling it "stealing" and they've all been cracking up. It's lit.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [24 favorites]

Anderson Cooper has a bunch of general types on all going WTF about Trumps crazy evil oil stealing policy. Cooper keeps calling it "stealing" and they've all been cracking up. It's lit.

A lot of people don't know this, but Iraq has lots of oil.

This is my new "please clap"
posted by dis_integration at 6:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, some of the other stuff he said was so bonkers that it's overshadowing the bonkersness of that answer.
posted by diogenes at 6:50 PM on September 7, 2016

Lady from the First Female West Point Class for President! She just described the answer she got from Trump as "mushy"
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is complete word salad. There's not a single coherent thought here yet.

Uppers, then.

Called it!
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:52 PM on September 7, 2016

Suicide question vet gets followed up with on Maddow, she was not buying Trump's bullshit, not one bit.
posted by prize bull octorok at 6:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

@TimMinchin: What a tosspot. What a ridiculous, ill-educated, incurious, arrogant, insecure, artless, petty, pompous, witless, delusional cockfossil.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [44 favorites]

The more I think about it, the more I don't understand how he can continue to praise Putin without paying a political price. I was under the impression that the American right didn't like Russia.
posted by diogenes at 6:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

this guy is calling out what a bullshit forum this was, FINALLY.
posted by zutalors! at 6:57 PM on September 7, 2016

but corb said this group voted on these questions? So they wanted to hear about the emails.
posted by zutalors! at 6:57 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can anyone explain how Generals work... Seriously? I legitimately want to know how the process of making some one a general goes.

US Code section 601

US Code 601 is the applicable law but it's further governed by regulation in each of the services. I don't know the specifics of how the other services do it but at the O7/O8 level (1 and 2 stars) in the Navy, they're selected by promotion boards that work the same way all promotion boards work. Senior officers make up the board, eligible records are briefed (eligibility is based on time in grade at the lower rank) and they do a secret vote on each record. Then there are a bunch of administrative reviews (i.e. JAG makes sure there's nothing pending, personnel makes sure they haven't requested retirement, etc) and then SECNAV sends it to SECDEF who sends it to the president who sends it to congress. Notionally, I suppose the president could say "Strike Joe Smith and put in Mike Jones" but that kind of interference would be unprecedented in modern times. Once you get to the three and four star levels, it's more political and less administrative but even there the process starts with SECNAV/SECDEF, not the president.
posted by macfly at 6:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Everybody, in my very limited experience, talks about the emails.

jesus christ y'all I'm not fast enough
posted by rp at 6:59 PM on September 7, 2016

I was under the impression that the American right didn't like Russia.

Putin is against Obama, so they're pro-Putin.
posted by Etrigan at 6:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Anderson Cooper has a bunch of general types on all going WTF about Trumps crazy evil oil stealing policy. Cooper keeps calling it "stealing" and they've all been cracking up. It's lit.

And now we've got Kayleigh Mcenany bringing it back to emails as a response to Trump's sexist tweet. The Clinton surrogate basically said, "nobody should ever expect to be raped".

Like Jesus Christ. Why do these brainless twits keep getting back on TV?
posted by Talez at 6:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

So they wanted to hear about the emails.

I don't have a problem with having an email question. But having the first question after Lauer's grilling on the subject be essentially "but really, about those emails" was lame.
posted by diogenes at 7:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am about to head to the gym but zutalors, we submitted but did not vote on questions. Some suggestions were of stuff that's way harsher than got raised.
posted by corb at 7:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

we've got Kayleigh Mcenany

She's why I stopped watching CNN. Although MSNBC has the Boris idiot.
posted by zutalors! at 7:01 PM on September 7, 2016

why is it so mysterious that Ivanka is just as big an asshole as the rest of them?

Because internalized misogyny. Just as racism sometimes manifests with positive-sounding statements - good at school, athletically talented, whatever - misogyny convinces people that a woman can't be the same sort of hateful shitbird as her dad. Clinton doesn't get the benefit since she's actively seeking power, but Ivanka is secondary enough to be in support role. So she gets a benefit of the doubt as probably being, deep down, that empathetic nurturer. It's a kind of gross denial of her own autonomy IMNSHO.
posted by phearlez at 7:02 PM on September 7, 2016 [30 favorites]

Does the Esquire article that Trump mentioned really give him an out for his support of the war in Iraq?

(It seems like this is something Lauer could have addressed in real time.)
posted by diogenes at 7:04 PM on September 7, 2016

About her emails?

Well, no, because that was a question that never should have been asked in the forum. The fucking emails do not fucking matter.

Look, in a job interview, you bring the candidates in one at a time and ask them basically the same questions. So you can compare them. Maybe you follow up with more personalized questions based on their answers. Seems insane to me that same format isn't used in something like this.
posted by anastasiav at 7:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

Does the Esquire article that Trump mentioned really give him an out for his support of the war in Iraq?

Esquire certainly doesn't think so.
posted by dis_integration at 7:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

The more I think about it, the more I don't understand how he can continue to praise Putin without paying a political price. I was under the impression that the American right didn't like Russia.

I think this election has exposed that a portion of the American right is into "strongman" and authoritarian politics, which is why there is no political price for Trump on this.
posted by nubs at 7:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

So, with that "we need military courts" answer, did he lose all those seventy-somethings who have made all those CBS military police dramas the most popular shows on television for the last two decades?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:08 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

I don't think its even a portion, the mainstream position on the right is they're perfectly fine with absolute dictatorship, as long its their guy and he sticks it to their mortal enemy, the Democrats and all racial minorities that dare vote Democrat. Hence, Putin is the man of the year.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

It is a little concerning though how we all decided to not even bother paying lip service to fundamental democratic ideals
posted by theodolite at 7:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Esquire certainly doesn't think so.

Ugh. Is it unreasonable to expect Lauer to be familiar with that article and to press Trump on the timeline?
posted by diogenes at 7:10 PM on September 7, 2016

@TimMinchin: What a tosspot. What a ridiculous, ill-educated, incurious, arrogant, insecure, artless, petty, pompous, witless, delusional cockfossil.

And those are his good qualities!
posted by SisterHavana at 7:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

So, with that "we need military courts" answer, did he lose all those seventy-somethings who have made all those CBS military police dramas the most popular shows on television for the last two decades?

What a JAGoff.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [22 favorites]

My dad served in JAG and I coulda swore I saw him working in a military courtroom one year he Took His Daughter To Work, but oops guess I am misremembering
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

So how long until Trump's retaliatory tweet storm starts?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Seriously, if you worry about being sent off to fight a frivolous war and you aren't afraid of the hothead know-nothing braggart tough guy with no experience of any aspect of military power or policy, you're a fool.

Re this comment above: dude was an Iraq vet.
posted by rp at 7:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think its even a portion, the mainstream position on the right is they're perfectly fine with absolute dictatorship, as long its their guy and he sticks it to their mortal enemy, the Democrats and all racial minorities that dare vote Democrat.

Maybe HRC needs to run an ad about all the journalists who have been killed in Russia, just as a fucking hint to people like Lauer and Todd and overpromoted lackwits like Dylan Byers?
posted by holgate at 7:15 PM on September 7, 2016 [28 favorites]

So how long until Trump's retaliatory tweet storm starts?

That's why I was so hoping someone would slag the shit out of him in the wrap-up on air. He wouldn't be able to resist. Although maybe the Androids are all in the time-locked safe.
posted by ctmf at 7:16 PM on September 7, 2016

Well the guy who played the goofball chauvinist on NCIS is now a psychologist on some other non-military courtroom show so obviously we've taken a step backward as a country.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The President may assign to any such position an officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps who is serving on active duty in any grade above colonel...

Uh, you know what you call someone who outranks a colonel?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ma'am?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [30 favorites]

So I wasn't able to watch the Great American Commander-in-Chief Off, so thanks for the running commentary and snark. For historical purposes I did memorialize Trump's big Veterans Affairs speech on July 11 here. It was maybe the third or forth speech he delivered from the teleprompter, it's pretty much the definition of weak sauce policy, with a promise at the end to divert vets into private care if the VA can't do the job.
posted by peeedro at 7:29 PM on September 7, 2016

His "policies" often amount to "throw money at the problem."

And it's worth noting repeatedly, the whole problem allegedly for the last 8 years has been spending and deficits, but also tax raises are LITERALLY THE SPAWN OF SATAN. But now that Trump has an (R) after his name, ::mumblemumblemumblemumble::
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

His "policies" often amount to "throw someone else's money at the problem."

FYT
posted by holgate at 7:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

He probably has no concept of scheduling a doctor's appointment.
posted by Yowser at 7:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

I did not know our generals were stone golems
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Last time my husband wanted to see a dermatologist for a weird mole he had to wait a month and a half. State employee. Good insurance.
posted by stolyarova at 7:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

The President may assign to any such position an officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps who is serving on active duty in any grade above colonel...

Uh, you know what you call someone who outranks a colonel?

A brigadier general. But those are appointed by the Pres + consent of Senate too. But what macfly said above clarifies things better.

It would be really weird for Trump bypass the normal military bureaucracy to fire a bunch of generals and appoint rando sycophants to fight a new war. It would almost certainly be a catastrophe on all levels, and I hope the Senate, even a republican senate, would oppose him. But he could do it.
posted by dis_integration at 7:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

all those CBS military police dramas the most popular shows on television for the last two decades?

ZOMG. Do not come after Jethro Gibbs. We will have words. (He would vote for Clinton, btw.)
posted by kythuen at 7:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

He probably has no concept of scheduling a doctor's appointment.

Or that people living in rural areas often travel long distances for specialised VA care, which is why you'll often find inexpensive hotels close by the big VA hospitals. What's terrifying about Trump is that he reveals new ignorance every day.
posted by holgate at 7:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I didn't watch the forum and haven't followed any post-mortems, but I'm guessing it was "EMAILS EMAILS EMAILS" for Hillary, and trump giving embarrassing non-answers but not actively shitting his pants on stage, so therefore more or less a draw with the coinflip to trump?
posted by codacorolla at 7:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Tony would probably vote for Clinton but refuse to admit it in public. McGee, Abby and Ziva would OBVIOUSLY vote for Clinton.
posted by stolyarova at 7:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Emails and Iraq war vote for Hillary, open floor for Trump to say what he wanted.
posted by zutalors! at 7:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump campaign couldn't get any military supporters to go up against Wesley Clark on Lawrence O'Donnell.
posted by zutalors! at 7:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

The "six days to see a doctor" thing has to be one of the worst (he's said it before too). Does he truly think the problem with the VA is that sometimes appointments are scheduled a week in advance? That's what the big fuss is all about?

More like six weeks, but he at least touched on the major VA complaint while Hillary never got around to it. I think he sunk himself elsewhere, but if I was on Team Hill, I'd be screaming about her time management there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Baby steps to a post-polarization America? Florida Republican threatens to free 100 mosquitoes on House floor after GOPers block Zika funding:

Republicans in Congress have refused to pass funding to combat the Zika virus so Rep. David Jolly (R-FL) tried to make the threat real for his colleagues on Wednesday by showing up on the House floor with 100 mosquitoes from Florida.

“This is the reason for the urgency, this is the reason for the fear,” Jolly said, holding up a jar of mosquitoes capable of carrying the Zika virus.

“Mr. Speaker, it is time to act,” the Florida Republican insisted. “The politics of Zika have gone on far too long. The politics of Zika are wrong.”

posted by palindromic at 8:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [71 favorites]

If that wields, maybe Representative Jolly can next pump three inches of Florida ocean water into the house floor to make a point about how global warming is threatening Florida too. No sarcasm.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:08 PM on September 7, 2016 [23 favorites]

Florida Republican threatens to free 100 mosquitoes on House floor after GOPers block Zika funding:

Alternate Headline: Florida Man Uses Florida Powers for Good
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [69 favorites]

I'm still really baffled about Trump's "take the oil" message tonight. He claimed we should have taken the oil from Iraq so it wouldn't be there for ISIS to sell. Does he not understand that the oil is pumped from underground and wasn't just sitting in a big box suitable for loading onto an airplane as US troops moved out? Does he think someone can just snap their fingers and, poof, that's all of Iraq's oil reserves, packed up and ready to go?

I mean, there are enormous issues with his "to the victor go the spoils" philosophy, not to mention the stupidity of trying to rebuild a country while taking its primary natural resource for yourself, but ignoring all that, how is his plan supposed to work on a practical level?
posted by zachlipton at 8:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump needs to talk to Ben Carson some more. You can't simply take the oil with you. First you need to build pyramids to store it in.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [42 favorites]

I couldn't imagine how he could say "take the oil" in a room full of military people. They are, um, the people who would be doing the taking.
posted by zutalors! at 8:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Carson probably thinks you can just check the oil with your luggage.
posted by zutalors! at 8:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Powell told Clinton how to bypass State security measures

Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), the ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, released the email exchange in full on Wednesday night. In it, Powell says that he used a private phone line to keep his communications out of the State Department servers.

“What I did do was have a personal computer that was hooked up to a private phone line (sounds ancient.),” Powell wrote. “So I could communicate with a wide range of friends directly without it going through the State Department servers."

"I even used it to do business with some foreign leaders and some of the senior folks in the Department on their personal email accounts. I did the same thing on the road in hotels," he said.

posted by zachlipton at 8:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [36 favorites]

So, @AP_Headlines became American Headlines @A_Headlines "after threat", is now Donald Asshole Trump @AmericasAsshole. Joke's over, folks.
posted by wallabear at 8:20 PM on September 7, 2016

Powell told Clinton how to bypass State security measures

Oh snap. Want he just the other day trying to claim he said no such thing?
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

Baby steps to a post-polarization America?

I hope you're right. But it's probably more of the same Republican selfishness. Disaster affecting your state? We can't waste taxpayer money on it. Let the free market clean it up. Disaster affecting my state? Why the hell haven't you voted for relief & research funds yet?!? What's wrong with you people?

It's the same game over and over again.
posted by honestcoyote at 8:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

I mean I don't care though, as long as Florida gets funding for Zika.
posted by zutalors! at 8:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm waiting for Trump (or his surrogates) to say of course he knows the military has its own court system, but what he's trying to say is that there should be a separate process for sexual assault.

And then we get to watch the GOP tie itself in knots over their positions on removing sexual assault cases from the current chain of command oversight that allows so many perpetrators to go unpunished.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:30 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Powell is claiming it doesn't count since he told her this stuff in 2009. The even worse part is farther down though:

Powell also told Clinton that he would frequently take his cell phone into Sensitive Compartmented Information Facilities (SCIF) — secure rooms where classified information was processed and mobile devices were prohibited. Powell said that he was not satisfied with the rationale for prohibiting such devices.

“When I asked why not they gave me all kinds of nonsense about how they gave out signals and could be read by spies, etc.,” he said. “Same reason they tried to keep mobile phones out of the suite. I had numerous meetings with them. We even opened one up for them to try to explain to me why it was more dangerous than say, a remote control for one of the many tvs in the suite. Or something embedded in my shoe heel.”

Powell said that he was not satisfied with the rationale for prohibiting such devices.

“So, we just went about our business and stopped asking,” he wrote. “I had an ancient version of a PDA and used it. In general, the suite was so sealed that it is hard to get signals in or out wirelessly.”

So Clinton is attacked for alluding to a drone program in unclassified emails that everybody knew existed, but Powell gets away with giving advice on how to ignore security guidelines and bring cell phones into areas where classified material is handled.
posted by zachlipton at 8:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [68 favorites]

Florida AG asked Trump for donation before nixing fraud case

WASHINGTON (AP) — Florida's attorney general personally solicited a political contribution from Donald Trump around the same time her office deliberated joining an investigation of alleged fraud at Trump University and its affiliates

The new disclosure from Attorney General Pam Bondi's spokesman to The Associated Press on Monday provides additional details around the unusual circumstances of Trump's $25,000 donation to Bondi

posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I take that comment back. It was from June, I thought it was new.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 8:37 PM on September 7, 2016

Powell said that he was not satisfied with the rationale for prohibiting such devices.

In 2009: Because it's a microphone with a radio attached, and its operating system has not been proven to be secure.

In 2016: Because it's a microphone with a radio and an accelerometer attached, and its operating system has been proven to be insecure. And this is not your area of expertise, which is why security experts have been assigned to advise you.
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [29 favorites]

if I was on Team Hill, I'd be screaming about her time management there.

Half her time was spent on emails

And in the wrap up, here's Hugh Hewitt to talk about emails

Also all the clips of her that MSNBC showed were about emails

If I were Team Hill I would be screaming about a lot of other things honestly
posted by zutalors! at 8:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

Let's take a short recess to cleanse our buttery brains with something not quite as insane as this election.
posted by guiseroom at 8:41 PM on September 7, 2016

RE: Cell phones in SCIFs.

Also, it's a camera, which you aren't allowed to bring with you either.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

Total shocker, folks: the New York Times story on the forum makes no mention at all of Trump's talk about Putin or his comments on military sexual assault. None.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:43 PM on September 7, 2016 [28 favorites]

Total shocker, folks: it was written by Patrick Healy.
posted by mazola at 8:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

Total shocker, folks: the New York Times story on the forum makes no mention at all of Trump's talk about Putin or his comments on military sexual assault. None.

I guess it's time for me to hang it up. The 'paper of record,' so long excoriated as the bedrock of the liberal media, runs this.

Fucking this.
posted by rp at 8:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

How do you know they'll print it?

http://youtu.be/1XKFQVJlmZY
posted by Yowser at 8:55 PM on September 7, 2016

Well, you know what they say...if you don't like the content of a New York Times article, wait five minutes.
posted by kythuen at 8:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [42 favorites]

So he wrote it yesterday, is what you're saying.
posted by petebest at 8:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

My husband, who is not a veteran, reminds me to point out that due to military bearing, our WTF faces are all muted. As he puts it, "The brows furrow and your eyes go all blank". So when vets on live TV are shaking their heads with slight "no" gestures, it's a bigger deal than it may appear.
posted by corb at 8:57 PM on September 7, 2016 [73 favorites]

Total shocker, folks: it was written by Patrick Healy.

Well, let's see what the diff looks like tomorrow when the "additional reporting was provided by" people have to clean up his shit. What a lazy fucking rebadged drama critic he is.
posted by holgate at 9:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [25 favorites]

Tonight's episode of You're The Worst did more for veterans' issues (PTSD, homelessness) than that whole Intrepid farce.
posted by zutalors! at 9:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Feeling on FARK is that she got a grilling, held up well, and then Donnie got to look presidential and collected while teeing off on softballs... And then he still said outrageously stupid and alarming things. The fear was that the gibbering evil would be lost in the noise of a hatchet job at work and behind the poise of a tv star playing a president on TV.

A perusal of recent /r/politics posts, which moves a little quicker and are less partisan D shows that the real news will be Matt Lauer Sucks, and that Trump said a bunch of things that were stupid, ignorant and divorced from decency or realty, and his staffers will be explaining away a looooooot of stuff over the next few days.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Matt O'Brien (@ObsoleteDogma): WTF. The NY Times seems to have deleted an accurate story on the forum & replaced it with one that’s not

Comparing: Candidates Flex Debate Muscles During TV Forum
posted by guiseroom at 9:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Patrick Healy will be remembered as this decade's Judith Miller.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:10 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

How tonight should have gone:

[LAUER] So, Secretary Clinton. you know your shit?

[CLINTON] Obviously.

(halftime)

[LAUER] So, Mr. Trump. You know your shit?

[TRUMP] Stairs. Russian planes circling. Obama. No respect. Make America great again, is my slogan. Also make America strong again.

In conclusion: very strong. Very presidential.
posted by rp at 9:12 PM on September 7, 2016 [10 favorites]

@joshbarro: "they had a totally different writeup which they pulled."

Jesus Christ what in the everloving shit is going on at the NYT? Once is laziness, twice is a fucking pattern of willful disinformation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [47 favorites]

I can't dig up any nice links at the moment but I thought I'd mention that if you're wondering why the process of appointing generals and admirals is so cumbersome and heavily regulated, it's because historically these positions have served as proxies for the overall sizes of their respective services and their numbers are specifically laid out in the US code. I think over time the center of gravity is shifting away from the officers per se and more towards their particular assigned commands, and now we have a lot of convoluted legislation which starts to treats commands and bases as proxies for size, but even today the numbers are still set out in statute.

The upshot of this is that regulations about hiring procedures notwithstanding, you can't just go hire a bunch of new generals on a whim unless you're filling empty slots.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

And this is not your area of expertise, which is why security experts have been assigned to advise you.

So this gets tricky at the highest levels.

When the captain of the ship asked me to do something I knew was against the rules, it was my obligation to (politely) point that out. Usually that worked. Occasionally though, the captain said, "I understand your objection, and I'm ordering you to do it anyway." If I was satisfied that the captain did in fact understand my objection, I did what he said. (If it wasn't breaking a LAW-type law, of course.)

They told Powell the rules, he understood them, and chose not to follow them. He may, as an officer of the Commander in Chief, have the authority to do that. What instruction says you can't have a PDA in a SCIF? I've made plenty of exceptions (to other rules) for the convenience of VIPs. It's kind of a dick move to put everyone in that position of just knowingly breaking the rules without the courtesy of making sure it's ok first, but really, what are you going to do? Refuse entry to the Secretary of State? Complain to his boss?
posted by ctmf at 9:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Our media is so fucking broken. They're going to make sure this asshole has a chance on election night.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

So this gets tricky at the highest levels.

Yeah but this story reminds me of telling senior college admins that it's a bad idea to put their passwords on sticky notes on their desks. That it put us at risk of FERPA violations and was negligent. And no, Mr. College President, your password cannot be your wife's name. I don't care that you stopped your electronics education at the mimeograph. It puts our data at risk.
posted by dis_integration at 9:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Alex Burns's Twitter shows his perspective on the forum and Lauer's questioning. It was Burns's piece that got replaced by Healy's. The emphasis on superficial stuff like body language -- yeah, he's a drama critic covering it as recreational spectacle, and way out of his depth. Maybe he was at the forum and Burns was watching on TV and the editors decided that Burns would write a fast placeholder article and Healy got to file afterwards, even if Healy's reads more like a placeholder?

(Healy's Twitter has no updates from tonight.)
posted by holgate at 9:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Occasionally though, the captain said, "I understand your objection, and I'm ordering you to do it anyway.

I think your captain is my current boss.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

My friend who made the Make America Mexico Again hats is now making Taco Trucks on Every Corner Hats. Get 'em while you can.
All proceeds to Mijente.
posted by gingerbeer at 9:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think your captain is my current boss.

To be fair, it makes more sense in the military "I don't care about tagging out the power properly, if I don't get my thing fixed like yesterday we're risking a collision. Just guard the breaker" context.
posted by ctmf at 9:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

To be fair, it makes more sense in the military "I don't care about tagging out the power properly, if I don't get my thing fixed like yesterday we're risking a collision. Just guard the breaker" context.

Yes.

Unfortunately, I'm a lawyer in a financial services outfit, and it usually makes no sense.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

And here's the diff showing how the NYT had to put references to Putin and sexual assault back into Healy's piece (and edit some weak prose).
posted by holgate at 9:33 PM on September 7, 2016 [31 favorites]

That NewsDiffs site is fascinating!
posted by mazola at 9:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

OK kids. Thanks so much for the synopsis and snark. I'm sure we'll have 8,000 hot takes in the morning, but it seems like Clinton handled things as well as can be expected in light of the total double standard and Trump shat himself. Also, Lauer sucks balls.

Thanks all. Meet you back here in the morning.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait did they actually run with the green one? What the fuck were you even watching, NYT?
posted by corb at 9:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sept. 7, 2016
Jesus Christ What Did I Just Watch
By ALEXANDER BURNS

Everything Is Fine. It's Fine
By PATRICK HEALY
posted by theodolite at 9:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [87 favorites]

They told Powell the rules, he understood them, and chose not to follow them. He may, as an officer of the Commander in Chief, have the authority to do that.

Sure, but in context he's boasting about his smarts in ignoring the advice – and we now know that that advice was good, that PDA's are highly vulnerable. He was wrong to ignore the advice he received, and he was wrong to advise Hillary to do the same.
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh Jesus fucking Christ people. One of my friends, a veteran who was at the forum, tweeted about shaking his head at Trump. They are photoshopping yellow Stars of David on his pictures and much worse. @KrisGoldsmith85 for those of you on Twitter or who wanted to see public response.
posted by corb at 9:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [28 favorites]

Make America Smart For Once

...if not again
posted by y2karl at 9:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Powell told Clinton how to bypass State security measures

Oh snap. Want he just the other day trying to claim he said no such thing?

It's worse than that. The date on the email from Powell is two days before Clinton took office. Powell's story all along is that he didn't talk to her until a year later.

But the biggest issue is that he specifically stated in writing that he intentionally used personal email in order to illegally avoid having his information captured for the Freedom of Information Act. I think this explains his going-nuclear, unhinged response when Clinton casually mentioned Powell in a fairly innocuous way. "She's trying to pin this on me!" Everyone was what the hell was that all about. Why the extreme response? I'm guessing that he was realizing the possible exposure of his illegal explicit intentions to evade the law. This is now clear since the full email has been released.

Clinton, ignored that advice about evasion and voluntarily provided all of her work-related email to the State Department archives as required by law.
posted by JackFlash at 10:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [38 favorites]

Something about Trump's "well actually it's 22" is so appalling and demeaning. I honestly cannot wrap my head around it.
posted by defenestration at 10:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [38 favorites]

divert vets into private care if the VA can't do the job.

FYI this is already a thing that exists, provided you make the case the care needed is urgent enough. But I will tell you that trying to get someone admitted to a VA hospital for inpatient mental health treatment is basically impossible in my experience. I never managed to make it happen in several years of working with psychiatric crisis. I did get a couple vets admitted to private psych hospitals on the VA's dime, though. Of course, like most things, the solution is lots, lots more money needed in the system, particularly for mental health care.

And the complaint about VA or public health systems being "you have to wait for an appointment" always cracks me up. In my local small city medical specialists are so overscheduled I typically have to wait 3 months for an appointment, including with my gynecologist. (Regardless of quality of insurance.) (And after waiting 3 months I showed up for my annual only to be told they don't take my ACA plan, even though the website says they do. Oh, she only takes that at the OTHER clinic for low-income pregnant women. Not at the nice clinic for women with a range of issues.)
posted by threeturtles at 10:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

He was wrong to ignore the advice he received, and he was wrong to advise Hillary to do the same.

And at the same time we should be mindful that the first time following protocol to the letter causes a job-limiting situation for someone at the top tier, the letter of the protocol will be flushed down the shitter and the spirit of the protocol will be followed henceforth.

So I can understand why corb and people in similar positions (including those submitting questions) are aggrieved by the double-standard, but there's always going to be messiness at the top.

I don't think Powell will be signing off many more emails to HRC with "Love".

(Oh, and here's Healy writing about his theatre vacay in London last December, with such gems as "Judi Dench could teach Hillary Clinton a thing or two about backbone" and "candidates are just bad actors with flag pins." FFS.)
posted by holgate at 10:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also, the attacks against Hillary for coughing are killing me too. Conspiracy theory mixed with trying to back her into a corner for being human. Like, she is literally functioning like all human beings do. What happens if she gets the hiccups? That this coughing BS gains any traction whatsoever is ridiculous. In previous presidential election cycles, nothingburgers were spun into campaign-killing gaffes — think the Dean scream, etc. But this is an election where Trump proudly spouts the most abhorrent, awful shit, and speaks in total word salad, and there's no fucking affect. But god forbid Clinton coughs.

What can even be done with that?
posted by defenestration at 10:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

What can even be done with that?

Let that 'Tussin get in there.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

What can even be done with that?

I have an idea, but it involves throwing reporters out of windows, and I'm not sure you will be okay with that.
posted by yhbc at 10:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

I'd buy copies of Pratchett's The Truth and send it to the editors/decision makers of the NYT, plus this Healy person (Really!? Again!? Really??!) but something tells me that they either would not read them, or would not understand the point, or most likely, would not dare understand it because they obviously think they're going to be starving on the streets if they start doing actual journalism.

Either that or they are complicit. Which is the less charitable explanation, by a narrow margin.
posted by seyirci at 10:13 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

But this is an election where Trump proudly spouts the most abhorrent, awful shit, and speaks in total word salad, and there's no fucking affect.

Can we start a rumour that Trump is suffering from aphasia as a result of a head injury that he's been keeping under wraps? He probably incurred it by ramming his head up Putin's ass too forcefully.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:14 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's tempting, but would probably backfire on people with aphasia, who have enough problems already.
posted by um at 10:17 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Chait: Matt Lauer’s Pathetic Interview of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump Is the Scariest Thing I’ve Seen in This Campaign

I had not taken seriously the possibility that Donald Trump could win the presidency until I saw Matt Lauer host an hour-long interview with the two major party candidates. Lauer’s performance was not merely a failure, it was horrifying and shocking. The shock, for me, was the realization that most Americans inhabit a very different news environment than professional journalists. I not only consume a lot of news, since it’s my job, I also tend to focus on elite print news sources. Most voters, and all the more so undecided voters, subsist on a news diet supplied by the likes of Matt Lauer. And the reality transmitted to them from Lauer matches the reality of the polls, which is a world in which Clinton and Trump are equivalently flawed.

posted by tonycpsu at 10:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [59 favorites]

This election should be laughable.

Why isn't it laughable?
posted by mazola at 10:21 PM on September 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yeah, Chait can go get fucked, seeing as he was one of the first and loudest voices braying over the "impropriety" of the Clinton Foundation, demanding that it be shut down.

Hey, Jon - this fucking shitpile that we're in right now? You helped make it happen.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [17 favorites]

"I understand your objection, and I'm ordering you to do it anyway.

Yeah, I had a boss like this (longest 8 months EVER). And we were being ordered to commit fraud, since we were state-funded and she would order us to violate the state's rules for using their money. So that was when we would document everything "Per direct order from Administrative Director Her Name, I did the thing." I practically needed a stamp that said that. She got all upset about it too, and called us passive aggressive and accused us of plotting a "conspiracy to get her fired" but you know, lady, I'm not going to jail for you.
posted by threeturtles at 10:25 PM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

Also, the attacks against Hillary for coughing are killing me too. Conspiracy theory mixed with trying to back her into a corner for being human.

The anti-Semitic asshole who commented of Kris Goldsmith Of course it's a Jew is all over the photos showing a close up of... HRC's hearing aid with a crazy conspiracy that she was coached by radio.

Crazy assholes gonna crazy, I guess...
posted by mikelieman at 10:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can we start a rumour that Trump is suffering from aphasia as a result of a head injury that he's been keeping under wraps?

There's no rumour about Donnie Trump's father dying from early onset dementia, and I think given his ability to remember things from May to September, that him being afflicted with the same tragic illness is a real possibility.
posted by mikelieman at 10:33 PM on September 7, 2016

How do you complain directly to the NYT?
posted by bongo_x at 10:33 PM on September 7, 2016

The thing that gets me about the Powell email is how proud he is about not knowing how cell phone signals might be more interesting to spies than signals from an infrared TV remote control. If that doesn't sum up the Bush administration right there...
posted by dirigibleman at 10:41 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

I won't go full Godwin on Trump. But he is an unhinged, unprincipled, dangerous, self-serving, wannabe strongman who has been openly bigoted and has plainly advocated for restricting the rights of and tracking or rounding up targeted groups of people — among other atrocious things. Then you have to factor in that he's done so as a pure demagogue, with the subtlety of a carnival barker, while employing the words and imagery of an ever-bolder anti-Semitic group of white nationalist followers who are more than glad to openly espouse their hate and support.

And we've seen how the majority of our news media has handled it, hackily forcing everything into a horserace narrative, fearing that they'll appear biased, thus failing to describe things as they are. We should be ashamed, honestly. I do think Trump will lose. But I also cannot help but wonder what the tenor of the fourth estate would be if fucking Hitler himself were in Trump's place right now.
posted by defenestration at 10:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [16 favorites]

How do you complain directly to the NYT?

If only the New York Times had a link that said "Contact Us" on the front page of their website.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

> How do you complain directly to the NYT?

Take out a classified in the Sunday edition?
posted by guiseroom at 10:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm having a super tough time figuring out why the military poll is so pro-Trump. This is a person who has called for the murder of the family members of terrorists as part of an anti-terror campaign, called for the looting of a sovereign nation of one of the few resources it has to support its society, attacked a Gold Star family, and claimed on Twitter that rape is an inevitable consequence of the mixing of men and women together. I can't imagine wanting a Commander-in-Chief that has zero respect for the commanders of our armed forces and who would gleefully instruct the troops to commit war crimes.

Also, I just finished reading an entire book about the Presidential Daily Brief that covered both the history and typical contents of said brief. There are no policy recommendations in briefs. These briefs are more like sekrut newspapers just for important policy makers. Anyone interested in what such a brief article might look like should read CNN's transcript of the famous Bin Ladin[sic] determined to strike in US brief. So Trump just sat in front of a bunch of military folks and lied about an intelligence briefing. I'm sure a reasonable percentage of the participants were aware that he was full of shit, but I have no doubt that few people were planning on changing their votes after his performance. It was just more of the same shit he always peddles--word salad connected by personal attacks on his opponent and the current CiC.
posted by xyzzy at 10:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

How do you complain directly to the NYT?

Via the Washington Post.
posted by mazola at 10:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [44 favorites]

I believe there's an ombudsman or public editor at the NYT. Not that any reader's complaints will have any effect...
posted by suelac at 10:46 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Take out a classified in the Sunday edition?
DON'T give them the revenue. Also don't give their website clicks OR links.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:54 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

The slides for the daily brief used to be (and may still be, I don't have a need for access anymore) available on the SIPRNet. They were a lot less exciting than it sounds like. The narration that went with them is probably where all the good stuff was. And then the discussion after the presenter left the room, of course.

SIPRNET was a weird place. People seemed to be encouraged to have no-shit blogs about their area of expertise on there for a while. Anyone (i.e., me) could browse them. That just always sounded like a bad idea to me. Need-to-know principle, anyone?
posted by ctmf at 10:58 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kris Goldsmith, who I forgot to mention is also a policy director at Vietnam Veterans of America, also reported back that the Trump clan took seats originally reserved for the veterans in the color guard.

With apologies to Barron, everything about that family screams petty two-bit villain from an Adam Sandler movie. Not cunning or calculating enough to rise to the level of a Disney villain, yet totally devoid of personality that could nudge them toward the "relatable Coen Brothers bad guy" end of the spectrum. An entire family of Shooter McGavins, minus the nice hair.
posted by strange chain at 11:07 PM on September 7, 2016 [19 favorites]

If only the New York Times had a link that said "Contact Us" on the front page of their website.

Yeah, when I did that before I got a page full of people.
posted by bongo_x at 11:15 PM on September 7, 2016

I thought maybe people had done this before and knew the best route for feedback.
posted by bongo_x at 11:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I thought maybe people had done this before and knew the best route for feedback.

If the NYT didn't learn after Judith Miller, they're incapable of learning. Don't waste your time.
posted by mikelieman at 11:53 PM on September 7, 2016

BBC Today prog leading on Trump's Putin praise and dissing on the generals, then Clinton gets the e-word and Iraq.
posted by Devonian at 12:09 AM on September 8, 2016

A theater acquaintance works at the TIMES, I think, and I just sent him a Facebook message asking "dude, WTF is happening over there?" (Okay, I was a bit more polite....) will report back unless he speaks in confidence (and if he knows himself, he may just be the guy who gets coffee, I dunno).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, Chait can go get fucked, seeing as he was one of the first and loudest voices braying over the "impropriety" of the Clinton Foundation, demanding that it be shut down.

Hey, Jon - this fucking shitpile that were in right now? You helped make it happen.

My nightly list of people I think are stupid, in descending order:

Donald Trump
Matt Lauer
Patrick Healy

This has been my nightly list of people I think are stupid.
posted by localhuman at 12:30 AM on September 8, 2016 [38 favorites]

Well, that's nothing new. I remember Dubya being accused of wearing some sort of large radio receiver to give him cues during a debate - I think the final conclusion, although it was never confirmed, was the odd boxy shape under his jacket (oh, the poring over screen shots) was body armour.
posted by Devonian at 1:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

I wish we really did have a liberal mainstream media.

The Atlantic's take on the Lauer forum:

Hillary Fails to Offer a Foreign-Policy Vision - The best thing you can say about Hillary Clinton’s performance at Wednesday night’s Commander in Chief Forum is this: Matt Lauer was worse.

The double standard acrobatics in this story are mind boggling. I can only hope this is some sort of tactic to scare the Clinton campaign into upping their game even further for the first debate, but still there is no real excuse for this level of imbalance.
posted by p3t3 at 1:16 AM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

CNN's take: "The Policy Free Election: Personal attacks dominate, discussion of issues left out".

You just know if Trump wins and everything goes to shit the media will take absolutely no responsibility for any of it.
posted by Justinian at 3:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

I think a lot of people in the media would be besides themselves with glee if there were an *actual* policy-free election.
posted by kewb at 3:35 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

And that's why I would hope President Trump makes good on his threat to go after the media first. Let me have a little schadenfreude before I start my life in one of his tie-making work camps.
posted by asteria at 3:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Regardless of how terrible one candidate is, it's not a reason to stay silent about flaws of the other one. Chait is not pretending that Trump is even a serious candidate, let alone "equally flawed" as Clinton. You can blame people who do that for helping to get Trump where he is now, but not just anyone who said negative things about Clinton. (And the Foundation is at least an actual issue worthy of discussion, unlike the Nth round of "emails" or this "coughing" BS.)

Calling for the Clinton Foundation to be shut down when no actual evidence exists of impropriety except in the fevered dreams of Republican operatives desperate to tank her Presidential aspirations is not "stay[ing] silent" about Clinton's supposed flaws. It's him making up a bullshit story.
posted by zarq at 4:22 AM on September 8, 2016 [37 favorites]

The NEW YORK TIMES finally has a critical article on the forum...about how Matt Lauer mishandled the event.

I left a message on the facebook feed about how their own coverage of the event didn't help either.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 AM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

Well, it worked on ACORN, so maybe magical thinking can work on the Clinton Foundation too? How much glitter has Trump put on his Vision Board?

All of it.
All the glitter.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

LOL, literally—Gary Johnson being interviewed on MSNBC just now was asked "What do you think we should do about Aleppo?"

And Johnson replied, "And what is Aleppo?"

Everyone was silent for about five seconds trying to figure out if he was kidding, then the interviewer continued "You're kidding." "No..." "...Aleppo... is in Syria, it's basically the epicenter of the refugee crisis, it's..." and Johnson was like "Oh, Syria..." and went on to say the problem in Syria was attempting regime change, not realizing of course that asking specifically about Aleppo is basically specifically asking about how to respond to the most terrible actions of the regime.
posted by XMLicious at 4:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [65 favorites]

The conservatives on Morning Joe are so, so depressed. LoL.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:02 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's the best.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:04 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

As long as we're complaining about journalistic nonsense, this analysis from Politifact (published August 16 but on their front page until last night - complaining about it today because it was my election-reading breaking point yesterday) about whether we are in a post-truth election is appalling. The article asserts that both candidates this year are less honest than the candidates in 2008. Then you look at the bar graph at the bottom and see that if you include "mostly true" statements, Hillary has the best record of any candidate during the time period, and she's basically tied with 2008 Obama for fewest "pants on fire" statements.

But really that's irrelevant, since the real problem is that treating Politifact as an index of candidate truth-telling is inherently stupid because they don't actually check every assertion that candidates make, just an often arbitrary selection of them. It's a bizarrely inflated claim for a website whose beat is fact-based analysis to make about themselves. Politifact's analysis of individual claims is usually helpful, but they can't tell you much about someone's record as a whole because they don't look at people's record on the whole. I'm going to rate their assessment of what we can conclude from their claims Pants on Fire.

But at least they're not Patrick Healy, I guess.
posted by vathek at 5:08 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

but I also cannot help but wonder what the tenor of the fourth estate would be if fucking Hitler himself were in Trump's place right now.

Look Who's Back is chillingly similar to our current script.
posted by srboisvert at 5:11 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

At this point I would have even accepted "Aleppo is a very versatile pepper." as an answer. Jesus.

And if Mika is publicly supporting Clinton, why on earth is she telling the (former?) Johnson supporter she is now "stuck" with Hillary instead of explaining why Hillary is the only good choice?
posted by Room 641-A at 5:13 AM on September 8, 2016

Governor Johnson, what do you think we should do about updog?
posted by palindromic at 5:34 AM on September 8, 2016 [51 favorites]

Q. What is a "Leppo?"

The second-least funny Marx Brother, after Gummo.
posted by Strange Interlude at 5:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

On Twitter, I'm seeing the Aleppo thing being spun as a positive: at least he's humble and honest enough to admit when he doesn't know anything, unlike some other bossy know-it-alls that we know. This election sucks. The media sucks. Everything sucks.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:40 AM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

The View from Trump Tower
posted by Thorzdad at 5:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Maybe a shade of Palin, but Palin or Trump would be defensively scornful that there's anything wrong with ignorance. In the post-interview bit, Johnson at least had enough gravitas to react with stammering shame to what he openly acceded was a severe gaffe.

(So I would consider that "positive" in the sense of "at least not as much of a proudly ignorant worthless piece of crap as Palin or Trump.")
posted by XMLicious at 5:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Johnson flap reminds me of the embarrassing dikfor scandal when I was 11
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

The conservatives on Morning Joe are so, so depressed. LoL.

Why?
posted by tzikeh at 5:49 AM on September 8, 2016

Re Morning Joe, they've covered Take the Oil, emails, suicided vets and now What's Aleppo? but I haven't heard them mention the CIA briefers body language disapproval. Andrea Mitchell thought there'd be blowback on that but later on (last night), a couple talking heads thought there would not be any comment from the CIA. Maybe it's too early still?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 5:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

For those who ordered from the Clinton store, did you actually get a tracking number by email as promised when it shipped? I made a t-shirt order on 8/1 and haven't heard anything, but also I think I forgot to enter my apartment number - so if it didn't ship, I'd actually be ok with that!

It's disappointing to see the super-long lag time through. If you're worried that Clinton supporters aren't out-and-proud enough...maybe help them get the tools to do so? Sometime before the election?
posted by R a c h e l at 6:02 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh Mika thinks Hillary is a no good doody head email criminal. 'Supporting" might be strong.

Oh, my misunderstanding. Makes more sense, though.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:03 AM on September 8, 2016

Hillary is about to have a press conference. They've got a podium set up on the tarmac with her Stronger Together jet as the backdrop.
posted by cashman at 6:07 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

In conclusion:
@jesseltaylor

Maybe our military should be a men-only cadre of oil pirates solely loyal to a powerful leader, that doesn't seem like an awful idea at all

posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [31 favorites]

Sorry I'm late to this comment, but:

What would be the result if people who felt that the MSM was unfairly biased in Trump's favor a) directly complained about this to the media in question, loudly and often

The media would smirk that if they get flack from both sides -- conservative complaints about the chimerical "liberal media" being a given -- they must be doing it right.

We know that, because that's what they did during eight long years of incompetence of covering the miserable failure that was George W. Bush, including and perhaps most importantly, the runup to his invasion of Iraq.
posted by Gelatin at 6:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

RNC Chairman Reince Priebus Told Hillary Clinton to Smile:

Meanwhile, Donald Trump speaks at a near-constant shouting level and rarely wipes that arrogant scowl off his face—but naturally, only women are expected to be friendly, calm, kind, and warm. Luckily, Hillary's campaign had a pretty stellar response:

Hillary Clinton ‏@HillaryClinton
Actually, that’s just what taking the office of President seriously looks like.

posted by palindromic at 6:13 AM on September 8, 2016 [56 favorites]

Live streaming of HRC presser on Huffpo right now.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:15 AM on September 8, 2016

You know, Hillary could have tossed in an occasional giggle and a tee-hee.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:15 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

But I also cannot help but wonder what the tenor of the fourth estate would be if fucking Hitler himself were in Trump's place right now.

"Chancellor, KPD Trade Barbs About Reichstag Fire."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:16 AM on September 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

...starring Obvious Anagram Reince Priebus as "That Guy Who Asked You to Take Off Your Headphones on the Way to the Gym So He Could Remind You to Smile."
posted by tonycpsu at 6:17 AM on September 8, 2016 [46 favorites]

"Why Ernst Röhm Is Really to Blame for The Night of the Long Knives" -Slate
posted by leotrotsky at 6:19 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hitler insists: "Jews are the real anti-Semites."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:21 AM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

You know, Hillary could have tossed in an occasional giggle and a tee-hee.

She didn't bat her eyelashes at me not even once
posted by dis_integration at 6:24 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

> The Johnson flap reminds me of the embarrassing dikfor scandal when I was 11

I guess I'm not familiar with that. What is or was a "scandal?"
posted by Spathe Cadet at 6:26 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Chancellor On Anschluss: "We're not going to go into Austria."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:26 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Berlin Residents Complain of Flat Tires, Ruined Shoes Due to Glass in Streets: Party Promises Swift Cleanup."

NSDAP on Jewish voter outreach: "What do you have to lose?"
posted by leotrotsky at 6:27 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump's “rape in the military” tweet that he defended last night is this:

“26,000 unreported sexual assults in the military-only 238 convictions. What did these geniuses expect when they put men & women together?”

So, you know, it will be interesting to see how female veterans feel about him standing by that position.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:28 AM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

I really cannot believe how much time Matt Lauer dedicated to the emails when the subject has already been pounded into the ground numerous times and there's so much more that needs to be discussed - but obviously the GOP at this point has mastered the art of convincing media outlets that trivial things like Hillary coughing in public are major news stories, and ended investigations should be reopened again and again. Without someone outside feeding them those pitches and press releases, they basically have nothing of substance to talk about. I guess?

It makes me uncomfortable that NBC is allowed to handle these major media events with the candidates when Trump has been their darling for years before this presidential campaign with The Apprentice. I could easily see them not being willing to drill Trump on things because they don't want to ruin their business relationship while being harsh on Clinton. Will Lester Holt act the same way at the first debate?
posted by wondermouse at 6:31 AM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump praised Putin, doubled-down idea that sexes serving together precipitates rape, and basically said he's too busy to prepare for office
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:32 AM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

"Exercising on 'Smoke Alert' Days" -Münchner Merkur Style Section
posted by leotrotsky at 6:33 AM on September 8, 2016

Chamberlain, September 1938: My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. [/real]
posted by PenDevil at 6:35 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

they don't want to ruin their business relationship

They fired him. That's not the issue here. It's not a conspiracy they are just trying to get ratings. Email scandal = ratings. Competent policy = Snoozefest. That's it.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:36 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Christina Cauterucci at Slate: Donald Trump Is Pitting a Ton of Spouses Against Each Other:

The poll surveyed 1,249 adults who’d been with their partners since at least 2012. Of all people supporting either Clinton or Trump, male Trump voters were least confident that their spouses shared their views. In other words, Trump is dislikable enough that men aren’t comfortable just assuming that their wives will vote for him. Lake told the Guardian that, in focus groups, she’s hearing from married women that their husbands have been pressuring them to vote Trump; she says that’s a typical dynamic as Election Day approaches, but it’s been happening earlier in this cycle than previous ones.

Politically mixed straight marriages often hew to a particular gendered mold—the wife votes Democratic, the husband votes Republican—and the Trump-Clinton match-up is no different. But the gender gap between supporters of the would-be first female president and the most unabashedly misogynist candidate in modern U.S. history is so wide, the Guardian poll suggests that more marriages than usual are breaking along gender lines. Of poll-takers who said their spouses are voting for a different candidate this year, just about half said the same was true for the 2012 election. More Republican women are supporting Clinton than voted for the Democratic candidate in either of the last three presidential elections, meaning Trump is lagging behind the last three Republican candidates in that demographic by an average of almost 20 points.

posted by palindromic at 6:36 AM on September 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

WaPo has some fun giving Hillary Clinton advice on achieving that presidential look.
posted by chaoticgood at 6:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [39 favorites]

Metafilter: Older Andrew Jackson

DON’T GET THIS LOOK! THIS LOOK IS NO GOOD!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

(The press chatter on the Huffpo live feed is pretty great) ("Andrea! Can you crouch down? Or no? No? Ok don't.")
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:40 AM on September 8, 2016

Hillary's press conference has started.
posted by cashman at 6:42 AM on September 8, 2016

Guys, guys, can we please stop saying "Johnson flap"? It sounds like a rather gross anatomical deformity, probably something tragic that can happen to one's dikfor.

Johsnon flap, Hottentot apron?
posted by jammer at 6:42 AM on September 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

Is it OK to wonder out loud if Donald Trump can grow a beard or mustache?
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:44 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

They fired him. That's not the issue here. It's not a conspiracy they are just trying to get ratings. Email scandal = ratings. Competent policy = Snoozefest. That's it.

I'm not talking about conspiracies. Sure they fired him, but The Apprentice is a show strongly associated (in the public's mind) with both Trump and NBC, and it's still going to be on the air. Even without Trump hosting, he casts a long shadow.

Hopefully this press conference will be better somehow, although this background noise is pretty awful.
posted by wondermouse at 6:44 AM on September 8, 2016

Did they set up the press conference right next to the plane's engines while those engines are on? The sound is terrible.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 6:45 AM on September 8, 2016

HRC speaking a bit before taking questions: She's convening more generals, going to start on plan to get the head of ISIS like she did OBL. Now she's recapping Trumps performance last night.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:45 AM on September 8, 2016

Hillary is about to have a press conference.

And Chuck Todd already spun it on the Twitters as "new sound" to distract from last night.

Seriously, fuck these people. They are unfit.
posted by holgate at 6:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Clinton: "What would Ronald Reagan say" about Trump praising Putin and denigrating the military...
posted by Devonian at 6:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

1st question - you're up in the polls by a point. Shouldn't you be running away with it?
posted by cashman at 6:48 AM on September 8, 2016

David Bossie, Trump’s new deputy campaign manager, wrote a book in 2004 that alleged Clinton caused the 9/11 attacks because he secretly loathed the military and made them work with homosexuals. [real]
posted by zombieflanders at 6:48 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

"And what is 'Aleppo'?" reaches the "I Like Ike" level of gaffe poetics.

In an election where the two front-runners are purportedly so widely disliked, it's kind of astonishing how unserious the second-tier/third-party candidates are. This is your best chance, yo.
posted by psoas at 6:48 AM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm not sure how to feel about Johnson not knowing Aleppo, I'm still back at when he had to ask who Harriet Tubman was.
posted by fleacircus at 6:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

Maybe our military should be a men-only cadre of oil pirates solely loyal to a powerful leader, that doesn't seem like an awful idea at all

I never thought cosplayer Immortan Don would be prescient, but there it is.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

2nd question: You said last night you would not put troops into Iraq ever again. Isn't that a) ignoring that some troops are already on the ground there, and also painting yourself into a corner for the future.
posted by cashman at 6:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

So first thing this morning on GMA, they have John Karl (ugh) giving his opinion on last night's forum. He says that if HRC had been having press conferences the email questions "would have already been asked and maybe Matt Lauer would have felt less of a need to hammer over and over." And that "they both have a lot of prep work to do" because both of their performances were sub par. According to him, she came across as irritated and defensive. Gee, don't you get irritated and defensive when your toddlers follow you around the house shrieking "why? why? WHY?"

I mean...I just....just how much hubris and chutzpah do you have to have in order to say that press conferences are better practice for debates than literal YEARS of hostile congressional hearings? I know, I know it's John Karl (ugh) but this is just maddening.
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

mqybe they can get as far as the questions only being 50/50 emails sometime.
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Her answer: Let's not give Isis what they want outside of targeting (their leader). She didn't address A. :(
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:50 AM on September 8, 2016

Is it OK to wonder out loud if Donald Trump can grow a beard or mustache?

He could! It would be hoooouge! The classiest facial hair!
posted by drezdn at 6:51 AM on September 8, 2016

FFS. Now they're asking why she didn't smile enough last night.
posted by rp at 6:51 AM on September 8, 2016

Question 3: You've been criticized by the RNC for your demeanor. Also, you've said there's a double-standard - is there one, running as a woman?

(Hillary basically said you're the media, do your jobs, then began talking about how she conveyed the seriousness of the issues last night)
posted by cashman at 6:51 AM on September 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

I know the thread has moved on (funny how fast it goes when there's a bit of news) but here's a brief follow-up re: complaining to the NYT about their coverage.

The NYT has a Public Editor position:

Liz Spayd is the sixth public editor appointed by The New York Times. The public editor works outside of the reporting and editing structure of the newspaper and receives and answers questions or comments from readers and the public, principally about news and other coverage in The Times. Her opinions and conclusions are her own.

Follow the public editor on Twitter [At]spaydl and reach her by email at public[At]nytimes.com.

So she would be the person to push "our" (the readers') point of view that we're being poorly served by the NYT coverage.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also she used the phrase "political happytalk" <3
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Question 4: Last night Trump suggested that the CIA wasn't pleased with decisions that have been made so far - comment on that.

(Hillary said she thought that was inappropriate)
posted by cashman at 6:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

She just made fun of a reporters hat. #HATGATE
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:53 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Question 5: If there's a double standard, how does that affect you going into the debates?
posted by cashman at 6:53 AM on September 8, 2016

A few thousand posts back someone mentioned the Bush administration email controversy of 2007, which I had almost forgotten entirely, and was googling to refresh my memory.

For other forgetful types, and/or millennials, the basic story was that several US attorneys were dismissed for seemingly partisan reasons, congress investigates, discovers tons of emails missing from the records, and if eventually turns out that half of Bush’s staff, including Karl Rove, were doing business on a private email server (a mail server at gwb43.com managed by the RNC). So after congress tried to get hold of those emails, the staff promptly delete between 5-22 million emails.

All that is preface for what really got my attention just now in this media matters article from last year:

The White House email story broke on a Wednesday. Yet on that Sunday's Meet The Press, Face The Nation, and Fox News Sunday, the topic of millions of missing White House emails did not come up. At all. (The story did get covered on ABC's This Week.)

By comparison, not only did every network Sunday news show this week cover the story about former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton emails, but they were drowning in commentary. Between Meet the Press, Face The Nation, This Week, and Fox News Sunday, Clinton's "email" or "emails" were referenced more than 100 times on the programs, according to Nexis transcripts. Talk about saturation coverage.
posted by p3t3 at 6:53 AM on September 8, 2016 [66 favorites]

As I said in the first few minutes of the event it was a hit job setup on Hillary, who rose above it and handled herself well. There was nothing fair about it, even leaving aside the unprincipled exclusion of Johnson and even Stein.

You and I watched very, very different events, is all I can say. If anything, to me it looked like a setup on Trump - ask some tough questions of Clinton, let Trump think it's a friendly crowd, and then he gets fucking raked over the coals by veterans. This read so, so differently over here in military town.

Clinton, as the Senator for New York, has worked closely with IAVA and most of the people in that room. She has made time to meet with SWAN and Columbia MilVets and all of the veterans organizations headquartered there. The questions she was asked were questions she knows the answers to. Even if people disagree with her answers, these are questions, fundamentally, that she has been asked before.

And look at her demeanor today. She knows that she fucking nailed it. She's relaxed and honestly, looks a bit happy - which she looked, to my eye, yesterday night as well. The RNC is accusing her of not being warm, but she looked warm enough to me - serious, but very approachable.
posted by corb at 6:53 AM on September 8, 2016 [60 favorites]

I'm mostly posting the questions because these are the all-important questions that the media fucking clamored for and put up day-counts about not being able to ask all at once together about. Maybe these are just the warm-up questions, but it certainly seems like all that press conference stuff was garbage.
posted by cashman at 6:54 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Is there a stream with usable audio somewhere?
posted by zachlipton at 6:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

"If I were not the nominee, I would still be out here doing everything I could to stop Trump from getting anywhere near the White House."
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

>WaPo has some fun giving Hillary Clinton advice on achieving that presidential look.

This is making me all nostalgic for The Toast, and also I just got my spearmaiden tote, so that too.

James Madison

To Get This Look: Forget to sleep for four days. Dress up, halfheartedly, as a vampire. When asked to pose, think about people who annoy you and children who have done some nonsense.

[...]

Martin Van Buren

To Get This Look: Ask your stylist, “What if I were a bowling pin, but with hair?”

“Do you want your ears to be visible at all?”

“Absolutely not.”

posted by palindromic at 6:57 AM on September 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

I was starting to get upset about her "Republicans are in a terrible dilemma, I have no sympathy for them" but she seems to be making it clear that she is referring to Republican politicans who endorsed Trump and are attacking her.
posted by corb at 6:57 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is there a stream with usable audio somewhere?

I'm on abcnews.go.com, solid stream, they're just wrapping up
posted by rp at 6:57 AM on September 8, 2016

If there's a double standard, how does that affect you going into the debates?

Fuck me, more navel-gazing. They really are only qualified to engage with one topic, and that's The Campaign as a self-contained thing.
posted by holgate at 6:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I couldn't get the question but she's now talking about this Time article about why Isis supports Trump.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:58 AM on September 8, 2016

Corb, do you have any idea why the topic of Kizer Khan never came up last night? It really seems like that would be the very first question from a room full of vets.
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maybe these are just the warm-up questions, but it certainly seems like all that press conference stuff was garbage.

Odds are that the NYT and AP will either ignore this press conference or focus on some idiotic detail.
posted by happyroach at 6:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm on abcnews.go.com, solid stream

Just ended though.
posted by cashman at 6:59 AM on September 8, 2016

The 'no press conference' stuff was just nothing anyway - didn't we do the whole 'nothing kicks off until September' thing? It was never going to last as a talking point, and it's already fading into the noise. Just something to fill the airwaves, column inches and pixelage.
posted by Devonian at 6:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

She did great, of course. Total breeze. Maybe the press was trying to do her a favor by insisting she do more pcs?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh Jesus this tweet about this NYT article from 2000:

June 6 -- Boosting his friend George W. Bush to reporters, Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico recalls a conversation they had at a conference on state government. ''George turns to me and says, 'What are they talking about?' I said, 'I don't know.' He said, 'You don't know a thing, do you?' And I said, 'Not one thing.' He said, 'Neither do I.' And we kind of high-fived.''

posted by fleacircus at 7:01 AM on September 8, 2016 [57 favorites]

Did they "kind of" high five, because they first did a line of blow off a mirror and then high five?
posted by dis_integration at 7:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

@danagould

Jan. 2017. TV news has wall-to-wall coverage of Trump wandering shirtless around a golf course. "In other news, Clinton was sworn in today."

posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:06 AM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm thinking GWB pulled a "gee you're slow" on GJ and GJ still doesn't know what happened.
posted by fleacircus at 7:07 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Corb, do you have any idea why the topic of Kizer Khan never came up last night? It really seems like that would be the very first question from a room full of vets.

My honest guess is that everybody already knows about his disgusting remarks on the Khan family, but everybody doesn't know how shitty he is on MST or his comment on generals or the fact that he's ignorant of the military justice system. What he said about Khan was offensive as fuck, but it's not a burning veteran question, really. Like I don't even care what the fuck he could possibly have to say for it, there's no answer he could give that would make me not want to punch him.
posted by corb at 7:10 AM on September 8, 2016 [44 favorites]

But honestly, I'm getting pissed at all this coverage, and it's making me feel like there is a huge disconnect between the military/veteran camp and the media. How the hell are they reporting on this without reporting Trump's major gaffes? How do they get to report on this without understanding what they're talking about?

MSNBC is now running "Clinton: Trump offered no plan to take on ISIS". But they should be running "Trump offers no plan to take on ISIS", not prefaced with a "Clinton says."
posted by corb at 7:13 AM on September 8, 2016 [50 favorites]

Donald Trump: Hey! You idiots want to hear my plan or not? Alright. So. Suggestions?
Matt Lauer: About what?
Donald Trump: What are we talking about? Stopping ISIS.
Matt Lauer: You said you had a plan.
Donald Trump: My plan is to crowdsource a plan.
posted by Talez at 7:14 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump’s not going to lose the debates. He’s going to win the debates. You just got a taste of how. It will be entirely about things Clinton has done (or allegedly done): Emails, pay-for-play, Benghazi, etc., as compared to things that Donald has said. He’ll answer with denials of having said those things, or lies, or thin “regrets.” And there will be no follow-up questioning.

He’ll win the first debate outright. He’ll skip the second town hall one. And he’ll return to the Fox/Chris Wallace safe harbor for the third. This election is going to be much much closer than it should be. Close enough that it may well allow Trump to credibly run again in 2020.
posted by Scoop at 7:15 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Not to mention that when Clinton was asked about her plan for ISIS, it was prefaced with Matt Lauer asking her to answer as quickly as possible, because clearly that's a throwaway question at a national security forum which doesn't deserve more than a brief answer.
posted by zachlipton at 7:16 AM on September 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

Jesse Berney: Paul Ryan's Zika Antics Prove He Deserves Trump

It is solely Paul Ryan and the Republicans in Congress who are responsible for blocking the funding for ZIka and putting the lives of children — children! — at grave risk. They've turned a critical emergency funding request into an ugly tool for political gain. They're trying to shut down a health care provider that the nation's most vulnerable women rely on for everything from abortion to screening for cancer to preventing sexually transmitted infections — including Zika.

This is as awful as any of the horrible things we've seen Donald Trump do over the course of this campaign. It's ugly politics at its ugliest, dressed up in fancy suits and procedural votes. Children are being born with debilitating birth defects, and Paul Ryan believes that's an opportunity to score some political points or maybe even shut down some health clinics.

Ryan has a carefully crafted image. His initial reluctance to endorse Trump was an attempt to draw a line between "serious" Republicans like him and a clown like Trump. Don't let his antics fool you. There's a reason the party of Paul Ryan nominated Donald Trump: They're peas in the same morally corrupt pod. Anyone who would risk the health of women and children the way Ryan is doing deserves a nominee like Trump.

I'm actually kind of bummed that this article didn't point out the other reasons the Congressional GOP is blocking Zika funding, because on top of cutting women's reproductive health services in the name of an STI that affects fetuses, they're also trying to gut the EPA's ability to regulate pesticides. But the most petty and yet IMO most horrifying reason is that they really really love honoring long-dead slave-owning traitors, enough so that they're willing to let women and their children living right now suffer and die. Naturally, the press rewards them by blaming Democrats for not letting all of this slip through.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:16 AM on September 8, 2016 [50 favorites]

Whenever someone says that they have some sort of secret plan that they can't share because of our enemies the proper follow up question is "Do you think we are stupid or something?"
posted by Alison at 7:19 AM on September 8, 2016 [29 favorites]

But honestly, I'm getting pissed at all this coverage, and it's making me feel like there is a huge disconnect between the military/veteran camp and the media. How the hell are they reporting on this without reporting Trump's major gaffes? How do they get to report on this without understanding what they're talking about?

You're getting a glimpse of why most liberals scoff incredulously at the idea of a "liberal" media. A liberal media would be going after Trump for this.

The corporate-run garbage media that we have is all false-equivalencies and misogyny, unfortunately. And Matt Lauer will keep getting paid to be objectively garbage at his job.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 7:19 AM on September 8, 2016 [46 favorites]

Trump’s not going to lose the debates. He’s going to win the debates. You just got a taste of how.

No, Trumps' going to lose the debates, but the media won't acknowledge it, so only the people who actually watched the debates will know while everyone else will think he won them.
posted by corb at 7:20 AM on September 8, 2016 [52 favorites]

How do you complain directly to the NYT?

I unsubscribed last weekend after seeing a particularly ugly piece. I called up, cited political coverage, and was escalated to a manager, who listened and took notes, which she said would be forwarded to the corporate office. It felt good.

Politics aside I love/cherish the NYT and can't wait to resume my subscription, which I will probably do once my billing period ends and/or political coverage improves.
posted by acidic at 7:21 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

It will be entirely about things Clinton has done (or allegedly done): Emails, pay-for-play, Benghazi, etc.

This is something Obama could help with, if he's serious about campaigning for Clinton. As President, the buck stops with him - if he comes out and dismisses the email server and meeting donors as irrelevant to her performance as Sec. State, and he'd hire her back in a heartbeat if the position was open and here's why, it would all pretty much go away, save for dark little pockets in the right wing echo chamber.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

No, Trumps' going to lose the debates, but the media won't acknowledge it, so only the people who actually watched the debates will know while everyone else will think he won them.

‘It was a draw’: Morning Joe says Trump tied at forum because Clinton’s answers were too ‘detailed’:

“It seems to me and I think you drew the same conclusion that many of us have around the table,” host Joe Scarborough told MSNBC’s Chuck Todd. “Last night, really nobody was a winner. It was more of a draw.”

“You’ve got to have the head coaches on both teams going, ‘My God, we better show up more than we did last night,'” he added.

“There’s no doubt,” Todd agreed. “They both need better debate prep. Hers, though, is not informational. Right? Hers is stylistic, hers is also figuring out how to give an email answer that is credible and at the same time short. She gets bogged down in detail.”

posted by palindromic at 7:27 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

My biggest concern right now is Trump taking enough flak from this forum to decide to prepare for the debates. He shows up having memorized something coherent about Syria and hops over the floor level expectations.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:28 AM on September 8, 2016

"This forum" meaning the CinC, not here.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:29 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Todd's critique about her answers is correct there, though unfair as shit of course. She can be pithy, and she will get there. Calling it a draw is absurd of course, Trump was extravagantly bad, even stylistically.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:30 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Politically mixed straight marriages often hew to a particular gendered mold—the wife votes Democratic, the husband votes Republican—and the Trump-Clinton match-up is no different. But the gender gap between supporters of the would-be first female president and the most unabashedly misogynist candidate in modern U.S. history is so wide, the Guardian poll suggests that more marriages than usual are breaking along gender lines.

I am seriously worried that men are going to insist on going to the polls with their wives and watching them vote, or making them do write-in ballots.
posted by winna at 7:31 AM on September 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

My biggest concern right now is Trump taking enough flak from this forum to decide to prepare for the debates.

My optimistic take, given everything that's been written about his attention span, is that he can "decide" to prepare all he wants, but at the end of the day it's beyond his capacity to prepare for an hour+ of unscripted remarks.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:32 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

> My biggest concern right now is Trump taking enough flak from this forum to decide to prepare for the debates.

I understand the sentiment and would totally agree under normal circumstances, but I don't see where any of his actions over the last year have shown this to be the case. When something doesn't go his way he ratchets the blame and complaints but never actually works on improving anything.

Also, I doubt anyone he listens to is telling him he did anything other than crush it.
posted by Tevin at 7:32 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trymp changing is never a concern, it is something he is incapable of.
posted by Artw at 7:34 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

My biggest concern right now is Trump taking enough flak from this forum to decide to prepare for the debates.

Considering he's tweeted 5 times about how well he did, I don't think we need to worry about self-awareness.
posted by chris24 at 7:36 AM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

But we even had people in this thread saying he "sounded good" and had been "put through his paces." I don't even know what they were seeing. He had an out of date statistic about military suicides that he used to well actually a real veteran with PTSD who knew the facts and has lost friends? That's him being "put through his paces"?

White guys are on easy mode for sure.
posted by zutalors! at 7:36 AM on September 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

Trump was extravagantly bad, even stylistically.

Stylistically bad, by traditional political standards, but by contemporary TV standards, a breath of fresh, audience attracting, air. (And that includes "hate watching" which elevates most of current 'most popular' shows)
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:36 AM on September 8, 2016

Politically mixed straight marriages often hew to a particular gendered mold—the wife votes Democratic, the husband votes Republican—and the Trump-Clinton match-up is no different. But the gender gap between supporters of the would-be first female president and the most unabashedly misogynist candidate in modern U.S. history is so wide, the Guardian poll suggests that more marriages than usual are breaking along gender lines.

Except married women are breaking for Trump. Single women are firmly in favor of Clinton.
posted by Talez at 7:37 AM on September 8, 2016

Now this NYT headline seems a bit more accurate:

Lauer, as Moderator, Presses Clinton but Surrenders to Trump
posted by msalt at 7:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [36 favorites]

This is something Obama could help with, if he's serious about campaigning for Clinton. As President, the buck stops with him - if he comes out and dismisses the email server and meeting donors as irrelevant to her performance as Sec. State, and he'd hire her back in a heartbeat if the position was open and here's why, it would all pretty much go away, save for dark little pockets in the right wing echo chamber.

You sweet summer child.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:42 AM on September 8, 2016 [43 favorites]

White guys are on easy mode for sure.

This election season has been a huge display of white male privilege. Trump's a huckster on top of it, so it's even worse.
posted by cashman at 7:42 AM on September 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

This election season has been a huge display of white male privilege.

Just like the Obama campaigns and presidency exposed the ugly truths about racism in America, this campaign is doing the same for misogyny.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [41 favorites]

Now this NYT headline seems a bit more accurate:
Lauer, as Moderator, Presses Clinton but Surrenders to Trump

That headline has already changed to :
Matt Lauer Fields Storm of Criticism Over Clinton-Trump Forum
posted by leotrotsky at 7:44 AM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

NYT's strategy seems Trump-esque -- just put out six different versions of the story and hope people listen to whatever one makes them happy.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:44 AM on September 8, 2016 [29 favorites]

Now this NYT headline seems a bit more accurate:
Lauer, as Moderator, Presses Clinton but Surrenders to Trump

That headline has already changed to :
Matt Lauer Fields Storm of Criticism Over Clinton-Trump Forum'

Seriously WTF
posted by zutalors! at 7:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Maybe it's time to build a parody version of NYT that periodically frobnicates story content every 5-10 minutes. Good luck with that, fact-checkers!
posted by tonycpsu at 7:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seriously WTF

On the front page, it's still "Presses Clinton but Surrenders to Trump", but when you go to the analysis itself, it's the other headline. Anybody know what they went to print with?
posted by dis_integration at 7:49 AM on September 8, 2016

Anybody know what they went to print with?
Are you asking us, or them?
posted by rp at 7:51 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Saeed Jones on Twitter:

Matt Lauer managed to get played by Ryan Lochte; I don't know why y'all thought he'd actually challenge Donald Trump.

posted by palindromic at 7:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [40 favorites]

I've been wondering, what are the chances that a lot of the current media shitshow is not pure incompetence, but to drag out the race on as long as possible? So that as we get into October, they try to then act as gatekeepers and start more appropriately hammering Trump?
posted by C'est la D.C. at 7:55 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Behind Closed Doors, Donald Trump’s Adviser Explains His Real Economic Plan
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:57 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was of the opinion that the media was taking it easy on Trump during the primaries, with the intent of hammering him in the general, so I don't hold any hopes that they'll start coming to their senses any time soon.
posted by palindromic at 7:57 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

On the front page, it's still "Presses Clinton but Surrenders to Trump", but when you go to the analysis itself, it's the other headline. Anybody know what they went to print with?

I just flipped through my library's copy of today's NYT and I can't seem to find any articles by Grynbaum in it.

There is that yuge 88 Generals Agree Trump ad, tho.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Say what you will about Matt Lauer, but he's got consistency.

He always sucks, like literally at whatever he does.

I'm still surprised that on his Red Nose Day bike ride he managed to avoid killing any clowns.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

what are the chances that a lot of the current media shitshow is not pure incompetence, but to drag out the race on as long as possible? So that as we get into October, they try to then act as gatekeepers and start more appropriately hammering Trump?

Absolutely 0%. Is it possible to say negative zero? Zero percent kelvin. The only logic conclusion possible is they want Trump to win. The NYT is actively spreading disinformation to paint him as a competent and credible president. To only a slightly lesser degree, CNN and the rest of the media with the lone exception of the WaPo are following their lead. For what purpose remains unclear, but that is absolutely what they are doing.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:00 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

#NextPost "Talk less, smile more"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:02 AM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Behind Closed Doors, Donald Trump’s Adviser Explains His Real Economic Plan

"Trump’s senior economic adviser, Stephen Moore, said the candidate planned to pay for his costly proposals by eliminating the departments of Commerce, Energy and Education; lifting all restrictions on mining, drilling and fracking; ending Temporary Assistance for Needy Families programs..."
posted by cashman at 8:02 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

NYT: "You furnish the debates, we'll furnish the close race."
posted by corb at 8:03 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Eliminating the DOE, huh?

Anyone tell them that that's where the National Nuclear Security Administration is?

Or is eliminating that part of his Russian and Chinese handler's plans?
posted by mikelieman at 8:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

> #NextPost "Talk less, smile more"

Too on the nose, too literally true. There's not even a context shift - it's literal.

Talk less! [Burr!]
Smile more! [Burr!]
Don’t let ‘em know what you’re against or what you’re for!
Shake hands with him!
Charm her!
It’s eighteen hundred, ladies,
tell your husbands: vote for Burr!

posted by RedOrGreen at 8:07 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

“I mean, my God, why do we need an Energy Department?” Moore asked, semi-exasperated. “All the Energy Department has done in the last 25 years is make energy prices more expensive!”

lol and why doesn't that freakin FAA make the planes out of the black box material??
posted by theodolite at 8:08 AM on September 8, 2016 [31 favorites]

Behind Closed Doors, Donald Trump’s Adviser Explains His Real Economic Plan

I don't get it. I mean they eliminate the DoE because they hate the FERC. What do they do with the NNSA? Do they dismantle nuclear weapons? Switch subs and aircraft carriers back to diesel? Or do they shove all that stuff over to the navy? Is the navy in charge of non-proliferation now? Are we just going to have a free for all? Throw ARPA under the DoD?

Scrapping the DoC? Do you scrap the patent office? Throw it under the Treasury? Scrap the NIST? Seriously? That'll be moved. NOAA? Well they just parrot global warming so scrap that entirely, right? We don't need any weather forecasting or anything and I'm sure Accuweather has their own private sources of data for forecasts, right?
posted by Talez at 8:08 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Matt Lauer is a miserable human being who should have been fired immediately after the Ann Curry fiasco. There are no words to express my contempt for that man.
posted by valkane at 8:09 AM on September 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

The problem isn't so much the mainstream media as it is Bro-Stream Media. Matt Lauer, Chris Matthews, Chuck Todd are prime examples.
posted by humanfont at 8:14 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

lifting all restrictions on mining, drilling and fracking

What does this even mean? Like, literally no restrictions? Mining anarchy?
posted by zakur at 8:16 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I wonder if NBC News' response to all this withering criticism is to have Lester Holt come down like a sack of hammers during the actual debate.

Here's hoping.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:16 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Or Al Roker.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:17 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Today:
Hillary at Jack S. Brayboy Gymnasium at JCSU, NC, Noon EDT
Trump at Cleveland Arts and Social Sciences Academy, OH, 3:00 EDT
Hillary at National Baptist Convention at Kansas City Convention Center (KCCC), MO, 7:00 EDT
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:17 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Behind Closed Doors, Donald Trump’s Adviser Explains His Real Economic Plan

Now THAT is terrifyingly good reporting.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

lifting all restrictions on mining, drilling and fracking
What does this even mean? Like, literally no restrictions? Mining anarchy?

Exactly. Operation Plowshare, your time has come!
posted by leotrotsky at 8:19 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Whatever the Times is doing, it's getting their website LOTS of clicks. Mission Accomplished. But the NYT has been in Trump's pocket for decades in service for his contributions to real estate advertising.

And NBC "fired" Trump? Seriously, as soon as this election is over, they'll be throwing money at him - maybe even a deal for 50/50 ownership of The Trump Network, because this MSNBC thing is not nearly profitable enough. Of course, what Parent Company Comcast wants is a friendly FCC (or NO FCC) letting them own America's communications infrastructure. Then again, there's no reason why they can't help him make The Trump Network while he's President.

In the 'Real Economic Plan', I laughed at the quote "As for Commerce, I call it the department of corporate welfare, and I know Trump has been specific about ending the crony corporate welfare systems,” because Dishonest Donald is all about cronyism, but then I realized that without the Commerce Department, all cronyism could be channeled directly through the Oval Office. Cha Ching!!!
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:20 AM on September 8, 2016

What does this even mean? Like, literally no restrictions? Mining anarchy?

I'm imagining a return to child labor, myself. Gather round, kids! It's the best job you'll be able to get once we get rid of the Department of Education!
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 8:21 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

well, probably just minority child labor.
posted by zutalors! at 8:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Company scrip for everyone!
posted by corb at 8:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

My feelings on Matt Lauer can be summed up thusly.
posted by palomar at 8:25 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

I phone banked last night. My first time as previously they've had data for me to enter. I find cold calling anyone for any reason very stressful. It's the anticipation partially but I spent a couple hours last night twitching and feeling like I was on adrenaline the entire time (also: self talk is so helpful.) Ovbiously the vast majority of numbers dialed were disconnected, no answer or wrong number. One older gentleman seemed like he wanted me off the phone but then asked what I was calling about. When I said we were calling to ask about support for Democrats running for office he said to go ahead. I started with Clinton and he said no I'm not voting for her. I started to try wrapping it up to move on when I heard his (I assume) wife call that she was! Turns out he is a democrat and I ended up getting out of him that he supports the rest of the ticket (with the wife vigorously agreeing on the background). I found the conversation oddly cheering.
posted by R343L at 8:25 AM on September 8, 2016 [53 favorites]

"The media" doesn't want anything. Most are democrats, but often of the cynical, suspicious variety. Some actively support HRC. A few are way to the left, a few are establishment GOP types. I'd be surprised if just about any employees of the MSM personally want Trump to win.

What they are is incentivized to want a narrative that fluctuates between two opposed sides winning or losing. It can be "Hillary stomps Trump" as long as there is constant motion for them to focus on and broadcast. Being fair has nothing to do with it. Whoever has more motion gets more attention. An outlet thinks its doing a good job when it gets hate mail from both sides. It's a sick system in a lot of ways, but there's never been a golden age of journalism where this wasn't the case.

The press is like a pack of hungry rabid badgers digging up your vegetable garden at night. They will kill your cats as easy as moles, but if you shot them all the snakes would take over and that is way worse.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:26 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy: The GOP had a great pie chart up on their twitter account. They deleted it but thankfully Steve Koczela grabbed a screen cap.

And now that's also saved on Internet Archive (work blocks Twitter, but doesn't block IA, so I bypass the work block by loading tweets through IA, often being the first to request those tweets and thus saving them for others :))
posted by filthy light thief at 8:27 AM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yes, but are they rabid snakes? If they're just regular snakes, then maybe we can talk about this badger problem.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:29 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

after the Ann Curry fiasco

can someone summarize? i only remember the vaguest outline
posted by murphy slaw at 8:30 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

These "eliminate cabinet department" plans are always hilarious. Like, ok, you want to get rid of the Department of Education? Even if you end all student loan programs tomorrow, and you can't do that, there's well over a trillion dollars of debt out there overseen by that agency. Somebody should probably stick around to keep an eye on that. And even if you convert federal education aid to block grants with no oversight or criteria, all you save is the cost of the program staff who used to oversee the disbursal of the funds, not the billions that actually go to states and districts. Commerce (which Obama has tried for years to consolidate with some other independent agencies to save a few billion and reduce duplication) has the Patent and Trademark office, which isn't going away, the Census, which is Constitutionally required, and the folks who deal with export controls for munitions and such, not to mention the people who produce all the economic data, like those statistics about how much trade we do with China and Mexico Trump likes to shout about. And Energy deals with nuclear weapons and proliferation.

Talk about reorganizing agencies or reducing spending, sure, but don't pretend that we can eliminate every single function these agencies perform.
posted by zachlipton at 8:31 AM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

Matt Lauer basically got Ann Curry fired -- he didn't like her, and the network needed to keep him.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/04/how-why-nbc-kicked-ann-curry-off-today.html
posted by palomar at 8:31 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fear of a Female President

Over the past few years, political scientists have suggested that, counterintuitively, Barack Obama’s election may have led to greater acceptance by whites of racist rhetoric. Something similar is now happening with gender. Hillary Clinton’s candidacy is sparking the kind of sexist backlash that decades of research would predict. If she becomes president, that backlash could convulse American politics for years to come.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:34 AM on September 8, 2016 [34 favorites]

Does anybody watch those insipid morning shows anyway? I'm honestly baffled that Matt Lauer occupies such a place of prominence in our national discourse.
posted by rocketman at 8:35 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

thanks, palomar

what does it say about me that my strongest urge upon seeing matt lauer is to FINISH SHAVING HIS DAMN HEAD

other than that he's genuinely charmless, unappealing, a bad interviewer and i have no idea why he's considered top talent at NBC
posted by murphy slaw at 8:35 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

"The media" is two groups, the reporters/editors/workers and the Owners, and there is a long, proud tradition of Owners telling the "media people" what to do... we got away from it for a while, but the Second Era of Yellow Journalism is NOW. Of course, some Owners are pro-Clinton (the WaPo for an obvious example) but the Pure Businessmen know that Trump as President would be so good for their business, less for providing free, unedited content, but much more for just deregulating everything.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:36 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Over the past few years, political scientists have suggested that, counterintuitively, Barack Obama’s election may have led to greater acceptance by whites of racist rhetoric. Something similar is now happening with gender. Hillary Clinton’s candidacy is sparking the kind of sexist backlash that decades of research would predict. If she becomes president, that backlash could convulse American politics for years to come.

THANKS HILLARY!
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

On the bright side, #LaueringTheBar is trending.
posted by zachlipton at 8:37 AM on September 8, 2016 [39 favorites]

Fear of a Female President
Thank YOU, Captain Obvious.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

What does this even mean? Like, literally no restrictions? Mining anarchy?

Bring it on. I'll start a Kickstarter to buy the mineral rights for the land under Trump Tower.
posted by Talez at 8:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Matt Lauer basically got Ann Curry fired -- he didn't like her, and the network needed to keep him.

Which is understandable, as Ann Curry is an actual journalist, and that no doubt intimidated him.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

threeturtles: One argument I've been making lately to people leaning Trump is..."Ok, so Trump is going to deal with illegal immigration by spending $60 billion to deport them. I thought the whole problem was we want the government to spend LESS of our tax money on illegal immigrants? Instead you want to take money away from citizens and use it on immigrants?

I have yet to find anyone who can make any real response to that.

You can't expect Trump supporters to base their support on any logic or reality, because the things Trump says aren't based on logic or reality. Here's a fun exchange with retired Rear Admiral Philip Anselmo, one of the Trump 88, from NPR yesterday morning:

INSKEEP: You do wonder, though, Admiral, if he would follow smart advisers because he's specifically said he doesn't take very much advice. And a Clinton ad even runs a Trump quote - an actual Trump quote - I know more about ISIS than the generals, believe me. Do you believe him?

ANSELMO: Well, I think, like anything else, there's a lot of things that are said off-handedly by both campaigns, and I don't put a lot of stock in that. For some of the things he has said, he's openly apologized if it offended anyone. But I think that's just a matter of course. He's a very frank and straightforward person, and that's - that's a very commanding presence.

INSKEEP: I don't know that he has apologized that often, but let's leave that there for the - for the moment.
...
INSKEEP: Admiral, I just want to ask one other question in the time we have here. Donald Trump has said, in spite of studies to the contrary, that, quote, "torture works," that waterboarding is its minor - minor form, and we should go much stronger than waterboarding. Those are his words. Now, the U.S. military opposes torture as a matter of policy. The FBI opposes it. I'd like to know, as a retired officer, if you believe the United States needs to be in the torture business.

ANSELMO: No, I don't think anyone believes that. But I do believe that things like potentially waterboarding or other efforts that are along those lines are necessary when you're in combat to save critical lives.

INSKEEP: Meaning you don't define waterboarding as torture yourself. But setting that aside, what if U.S. enemies use a President-Trump policy on torture - or whatever you want to call it - to torture Americans, to justify torturing Americans? Just a few seconds here.

ANSELMO: Well, you can't do that under the Geneva Convention. And if they do that, they're in violation...

INSKEEP: Wouldn't we be?

ANSELMO: ...As we would be.

Summary: "He's a very frank and straightforward person, and that's - that's a very commanding presence," but you shouldn't believe everything he says, because "a lot of things that are said off-handedly by both campaigns, and I don't put a lot of stock in that."

Trump hands his followers their own out: trust him, just don't hold him to his word. Usually it's politicians doing the sidestep, but Trump twists that and has his supporters doing it for him.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Mark Halperin chased down Gary Johnson in the Rockefeller Center lobby after the Morning Joe taping to basically ask "what was the deal with your Aleppo thing?" and Johnson utterly ate it (scroll to the bottom), like worse than the original gaffe.
posted by zachlipton at 8:42 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Does anybody watch those insipid morning shows anyway

Today / Good Morning America / CBS This Morning average around 4 million viewers each. Roughly 2/3 of those viewers are over 55.
posted by dersins at 8:42 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I worked at the Tufts Daily for a couple of semesters in 1991, doing second shift layout while Pat Healy was a writer. I think he was an editor after I transferred schools, too. (ObDisc: I haven't spoken to him since I left Tufts, so like mid-December of 2001.) Anyway, he's a pretty good guy, and I am beginning to think that we are shooting the messenger to some extent.

Now, my understanding is that obituaries are drafted while the subject is still alive. When the person dies, final details are added and it is published. Isn't it a similar situation if you were tasked with writing an article about a public event, and you had a copy of the speaker's prepared remarks ahead of time? I would certainly throw something together before it starts, and then use that as a framework for what actually happens and actually is said at the event, after it ends.

Now, the fact that the NYT editors posted Pat's first draft of the story like five hours before the event ended makes me disappointed in their bad judgement and/or crummy workflow. The series of updates -- probably snatched out of his hands as Pat sat there revising the story -- that were posted without explanation make me start to get angry, as though they thought we wouldn't notice.

Anyway, the NYT editor who let this whole mess happen is just as much to blame as the writer tasked with covering the event. Is this a consequence of a shrunken newsroom? Probably. Does that exonerate him? Not entirely. Does it make the NYT look shabby? Yes, yes it does.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

President Obama: I think the most important thing for the public and the press is to just listen what he says and follow up, and ask questions about what appear to be either contradictory or uninformed or outright bad ideas. There is this process that seems to take place over the course of the election season, where somehow, behavior, that in normal times we would consider completely unacceptable and outrageous, becomes normalized. People start thinking that we should be grading on a curve.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:44 AM on September 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

TV 'journalists' are there to be TeeVee Stars. They are empty vessels that need adulation of the masses to fill their emptiness. There is no there there. Chuck Todd, Matt Lauer, Katie Couric are no more than talking heads.

I don't know what's up with the NYTimes but I still have a Sunday only subcription that I've been thinking about dropping, which I think will happen in conjunction with a letter to the Public Editor. Thanks to these threads I have ample ammo.
posted by readery at 8:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon: fuck this. #3, emails. just fuck this.

I take a small comfort from the ceaseless "emails" attacks on HRC: That's all anyone has on her. Seriously - if everyone attacks her on one front, even if they diversify the "lessons learned" from "she's not trustworthy with sensitive materials" [not true] to "she can't remember what was done however many years ago" like anyone else could remember those details without going back through notes, no one has anything else to critique. Policy? Nope. "Attacks" on Trump? Light-weight nonsense. So the only thing that "sticks" is a non-issue that has been enlarged to the point that there might be something, somewhere.

I'm looking forward to the debates, because you can't debate about emails for three whole nights. Right? Right?
posted by filthy light thief at 8:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

retired Rear Admiral Philip Anselmo

RE...SPECT! WALK!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

"Trump’s senior economic adviser, Stephen Moore, said the candidate planned to pay for his costly proposals by eliminating the departments of Commerce, Energy and Education; lifting all restrictions on mining, drilling and fracking; ending Temporary Assistance for Needy Families programs..."

This sounds like kids playing at government. Trump is Summer Wheatley made flesh:

"Well, I never thought I would make it here today. I would be a great class president because I promise to put two new pop machines in the cafeteria, and I'm also gonna get a glitter Bonnebell dispenser for all the girls' bathrooms. Oh, we're gonna get new cheerleading uniforms. Anyway, I think I'd be a great class president, so, uh... who wants to eat "chimini-changas" next year? Not me. See, with me, it will be summer all year long. Vote for Summer!"
posted by zakur at 8:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mother Jones: Clinton Cites Terrorism Expert Who Says ISIS Is Rooting for Trump. At a press conference, she ponders the media's "disparate treatment" of her and Trump:

Asked whether she believed that she has been on the short side of biased media coverage during the campaign, Clinton referred to "disparate treatment" and noted she found it "frustrating." She declined to cite sexism as the reason, but she noted that political scientists and journalists will have plenty of material to study for years to come. Clinton remarked that the political press "may not know how to respond to [Trump's] behavior." She dismissed an arguably sexist tweet issued by GOP chairman Reince Priebus that criticized her for not smiling enough during the forum, explaining that she was discussing serious matters. "I am not asking for any special treatment," she added. "I know the road I've been on. I've been on it for 25 years."

During the press conference, Clinton displayed policy know-how and showed flashes of personality. She adeptly used most queries to raise pointed questions about Trump. The event raised an obvious question of its own: Why did she wait so long to start doing this?

That final question seems thoroughly answered by its preceding paragraph, but that's just me.
posted by palindromic at 8:50 AM on September 8, 2016 [56 favorites]

I think the most important thing for the public and the press is to just listen what he says and follow up, and ask questions about what appear to be either contradictory or uninformed or outright bad ideas.

Um. Isn't that like one of the basic functions of the press in a free society? To listen to people in power and then to follow-up and ask questions about what appear to be contradictory or uninformed or outright bad ideas? And, like, not just in an election cycle? Are we seriously at a point when somebody has to make this point like it's a new direction to take?

Can I ask anymore questions?
posted by nubs at 8:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Isn't it a similar situation if you were tasked with writing an article about a public event, and you had a copy of the speaker's prepared remarks ahead of time?

1) Yes, but you make sure it's updated before you publish it.
2) For the CinC, there were no prepared remarks, and it went the other way entirely: the competent story was pulled for the fluff.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:54 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

More from Moore:
“We’re going to borrow a really good idea from John Kasich,” Moore said, referring to transforming the federal social safety net into a system of block grants for individual states. “All these programs, job training, health care, medical services, da da da, we’ll just pass all that stuff back to the states.”

Long a favorite among conservative deficit hawks, block grant programs have been shown in recent studies to be very vulnerable to budget cuts at the state level, which ultimately means fewer services for needy families.

“We’re also going to do some welfare reform,” Moore continued. “We’ve built an incredible entitlement state, and this kind of victimization, and that’s got to end. We’re going to go after those programs.

“All you have to do is require employable adults who don’t have disabilities to work for their benefits, and you’re going to see big changes in the welfare system,” Moore said. What he failed to mention was that the majority of people receiving federal anti-poverty benefits are already working, so his plan wouldn’t apply to them.

posted by T.D. Strange at 8:55 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's called writing the lede on the way to the ballpark.
posted by valkane at 8:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Countess Elena: Just chanting MAGA like he's one of his own fans

I think starting a chant is like starting a wave: you need 20-35 people. Less than that, it usually doesn't work. And it definitely won't work if you call the audience idiots.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Long a favorite among conservative deficit hawks, block grant programs have been shown in recent studies to be very vulnerable to budget cuts at the state level, which ultimately means fewer services for needy families.

Unless I'm thinking about a different kind of grant, the best part about these grants, to the minds of conservatives, is that they generally don't come with any requirements vis a vis how to use them and so they can be spent on whatever the governor and state legislature feel like spending them on. This allows them to hurt poor people and get free money from the feds, a double victory.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:03 AM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

Does anybody watch those insipid morning shows anyway?

My mother has always had Today playing in the background while she gets ready in morning - minimum of 30 years of daily exposure for her. It is an oddly disjointed show. The attempts to deliver news jarring against the cooking demos and crowdwork segments. The stories they report on avoid political implication and inference, and the lessons of history, which disconnects their reporting from itself. The lack of narrativization and context-framing that makes each story discrete also makes each story not particularly memorable, more like a fact-a-day calendar for current events than a genuine news show.

It's not all that different from what Lauer brought to the stage last night.
posted by palindromic at 9:03 AM on September 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

Long a favorite among conservative deficit hawks, block grant programs have been shown in recent studies to be very vulnerable to budget cuts at the state level, which ultimately means fewer services for needy families.

The biggest problem with block grants to states for welfare is that, when you cede federal control, the money doesn't get used for welfare. Instead it goes to private contractors for programs like abstinence training and marriage promotion. Only 25% of block grant welfare funding from the federal government actually goes to welfare payments to poor families. The rest is used as a slush fund in the states and awards to private companies.
posted by JackFlash at 9:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

@anniekarni
Clinton is reading the Neopolitan Novels by Elena Ferrante, per her podcast. Blurb: "just hypnotic." - HRC [sic]

This makes me unspeakably happy. I hope she's boning up on how to completely eviscerate him in the debates <3
posted by acidic at 9:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

Trump is Summer Wheatley made flesh

In this analysis, then, Hillary is Pedro.

And Tim Kaine is Napoleon doing the AWESOME dance sequence.
posted by yhbc at 9:07 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump’s senior economic adviser, Stephen Moore

Of course it's that fucking Steve.

block grant programs have been shown in recent studies to be very vulnerable to budget cuts at the state level, which ultimately means fewer services for needy families.

Also, they're vulnerable to repurposing by state legislatures, which is why TANF in places like Georgia is miserly at providing cash assistance to individuals.

And that's the big point: the GOP (specifically, the ALEC wing) owns lots of state legislatures, has more confidence in its ability to keep owning them, and would love the chance to do even more damage to the safety net on the state level.
posted by holgate at 9:08 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

For those wondering how Matt Lauer's conscience lets him sleep at night:
Just on the heels of purchasing Richard Gere’s sprawling Hamptons estate for $36.5 million, Today show anchor Matt Lauer put his own Hamptons home on the market for $17.995 million.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:09 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

feloniousmonk: He was just so vague, even on the accusations. Sure, he was able to sprinkle in a few stats, but it was more in the style of the debater who knows a few Plato quotes and just says whatever to bridge them.

Or like a kid in class who offers an answer they know early on to avoid getting singled out by the teacher later.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:09 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

In an election where the two front-runners are purportedly so widely disliked, it's kind of astonishing how unserious the second-tier/third-party candidates are. This is your best chance, yo.

In Johnson and Stein's defense, neither of them need a serious strategy for governing because it's impossible for them to win. The third parties can talk about fantasize about policy, but in the end they're ideological parties, not governmental ones, so their people have little incentive to do their homework. Who seriously gives a shit what Gary Johnson thinks about Aleppo? Everybody knows already that he'll never have a say in the matter. The bread and butter of third party candidates is the claim that they're being unfairly shut out of the presidential race, but the truth is that they already receive far too much attention given that they are cosplay presidential candidates running purely symbolic campaigns. The joke is compounded by the fact that there's room for politicians with Green and Libertarian views in the primary parties, because those parties are coalitions and not (or not exclusively, anyway) ideological echo chambers. The third parties are literally tyrannical parties that think compromise and coalition-building is a sign of weakness and not a necessary part of living in a diverse society and their campaigns are media spectacles where they can promise anything without ever having to seriously consider how they could fulfill those promises. It's no wonder that anyone seriously interested in governance would stay far, far away from the third parties.

The media's willingness to pay attention to third-party campaigns in the name of some deluded standard of fairness provided the playbook that Trump is working from. It's no wonder that Stein and Trump share so much rhetoric about Hillary - they are both stylistically third-party candidates. Of course, the Tea Party and its aftermath have pushed the Republicans in a more third-party direction where they're no longer able to build an internal coalition based on shared policy goals and now are a coalition defined by what they oppose. It would probably be too much to blame the media's treatment of third-party candidates for laying the foundation for the tumors on the Republican party (Trump, the Freedom Caucus, Cruz, etc.), but the connection is real. All it took is for third-party types to pull their heads out of their asses for long enough to look around and realize that it's much more sensible to run a third-party type campaign from within one of the major parties than it is to intentionally exile themselves to the fringe by attaching themselves to loser parties. The only remaining incentive for running for President in one of the third parties is that you receive undeserved media attention, so of course the only candidates they can find are people whose sole concern is preening and hearing themselves speak and who can't be bothered with real engagement with the world.
posted by vathek at 9:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [30 favorites]

For those wondering how Matt Lauer's conscience lets him sleep at night:

So cushioned on a giant pile of money?
posted by Talez at 9:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

>> For those wondering how Matt Lauer's conscience lets him sleep at night:
> So cushioned on a giant pile of money?
And warmed by the crackling of hundred dollar bills in the fireplace, apparently.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:15 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

@ColonialWilliamsburg: "You should smile more." #colonialkitties
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:15 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

But honestly, I'm getting pissed at all this coverage, and it's making me feel like there is a huge disconnect between the military/veteran camp and the media. How the hell are they reporting on this without reporting Trump's major gaffes? How do they get to report on this without understanding what they're talking about?

You're one to talk, soldier! You got THE RANKS WRONG! They were GENERAL gaffes! Start running, we'll tell you when to stop. /s
posted by phearlez at 9:17 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

> For those wondering how Matt Lauer's conscience lets him sleep at night:

Ambien. This is known.
posted by valkane at 9:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

2) For the CinC, there were no prepared remarks, and it went the other way entirely: the competent story was pulled for the fluff.

OK, that I did not know. But I still lay a lot of this at the feet of the editors, not just the writer.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:19 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

This makes me unspeakably happy. I hope she's boning up on how to completely eviscerate him in the debates

Me, too, though at this point I despair that anyone would notice who wasn't already planning to vote for her.

I got 500 on the word 'shrewish' popping up on one of the major media outlets the day after the first debate.
posted by Mooski at 9:20 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or like a kid in class who offers an answer they know early on to avoid getting singled out by the teacher later.

Suddenly feeling very self-conscious about my tendency to post early in threads.

palindromic, your description of the Today show (which I've seen a lot of) and its problems is outstanding and a great example of why I keep reading the comments way down here in these horrible, wonderful threads in this horrible, wonderful year.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:22 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Clinton is reading the Neopolitan Novels

* Beatles fan newsreel scream *
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 9:28 AM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

nubs: I think this election has exposed that a portion of the American right is into "strongman" and authoritarian politics, which is why there is no political price for Trump on this.

This made me think of some lines from Sage Francis' "Makeshift Patriot"

There is a new price on freedom, so buy into it while supplies last
Changes need to be made: No more curbside baggage
7PM curfew
Racial profiling will continue with less bitching
We’ve unified over who to kill, so until I find more relevant scripture to quote, remember; our God is bigger, stronger, smarter and much wealthier
So wave those flags with pride, especially the white part

Our [racism/ sexism/ fascism/ nationalism/ extremism] is OK because it's ours, not theirs.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:29 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

WATCH LIVE: Clinton Holds Rally In North Carolina at 12 PM ET: Currently just a shot of the podium with "Stronger Together" background music.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:29 AM on September 8, 2016

Josh Marshall, My Take on the Nat Sec Forum:

... we should dispense with the idea that Clinton will mop the floor with Trump in the debate. [... But ...] People know from a young age when someone is trying to bullshit their way out of question. Trump has no idea what he's going to do about ISIS. It was just nonsense and word salad. I think that was clear in a way that would transcend ideology.

... you couldn't watch [Clinton's] segment and not realize she knows basically all the relevant issues inside and out. She's prepared. Whether you support her or like her is another matter. But she's prepared. I think Trump came off as cocky and ignorant ... people who are wary of Trump but open to supporting him will not be reassured by that performance.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:30 AM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

T.D. Strange: And it's worth noting repeatedly, the whole problem allegedly for the last 8 years has been spending and deficits, but also tax raises are LITERALLY THE SPAWN OF SATAN. But now that Trump has an (R) after his name

Smaller government and lower spending on the things we don't support. Just like GOP supports the protection the individual liberties, unless you have a uterus. No hypocrisy or conflicting messages there, no siree.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:35 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

The GOP believes in reckless spending on things that benefit rich people and slashing taxes on rich people while giving either small tax breaks or actual tax hikes to everybody else.

I mean, obviously that's what they believe, because that's what they do literally every time they get fiscal power. What they market themselves and tell themselves they believe in is 100% irrelevant.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

People know from a young age when someone is trying to bullshit their way out of question. Trump has no idea what he's going to do about ISIS. It was just nonsense and word salad. I think that was clear in a way that would transcend ideology.

Yeah, but Trump sounds like that about everything, and it hasn't made a whit of difference with his supporters.

You'd think that Josh Marshall would be familiar with P.T. Barnum by now.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

We are learning this year that "Barnumism" is a major ideology.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:44 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

My NYT contact works in the Sunday book supplement section, he says, and when it comes to the editors actions, "yeah, I dunno either." He did quietly endorse readers commenting on Twitter and Facebook to demand explanations, though.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:45 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

wenestvedt: "Now, the fact that the NYT editors posted Pat's first draft of the story like five hours before the event ended makes me disappointed in their bad judgement and/or crummy workflow. The series of updates -- probably snatched out of his hands as Pat sat there revising the story -- that were posted without explanation make me start to get angry, as though they thought we wouldn't notice."

I'm pretty sure this is referring to Healy's story about Trump's trip to Mexico and subsequent immigration speech in Arizona. However, the more recent round of criticism related to a NYT story by Healy is related to a set of articles/updates related to last night's forum where an article by Alexander Burns which was much harsher on Trump was pretty much swapped out for a Patrick Healy article which was much more lenient (e.g.: "And Mr. Trump, pressed to defend his inconsistent policy views and lack of conventional training for the presidency, was repeatedly evasive." vs. "Mr. Trump was withering in his attacks on her record while defensive about his own shifting stands on the Iraq war over the years, and insisted that he believed he was ready to become commander in chief on the first day in office.")
posted by mhum at 9:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

He did quietly endorse readers commenting on Twitter and Facebook to demand explanations, though.

People using social media to express outrage? It'll be a tough sell, but it's worth a shot.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Charles Pierce: This Is the Biggest Test Political Journalists Have Ever Faced:

Donald Trump was appalling last night. He was exposed, again, as someone from whom you wouldn't buy an apple, let alone a foreign policy. He didn't know that we already have military courts. He didn't know that you can't just go "get the oil." (Someone should ask the Kurds what they think about this.) He lied, again, about his previous positions regarding the military operations in Iraq and Libya. He defended an old tweet of his about how, if we're going to have women and men in the military, then the occasional sexual assault is part of the price we should be expected to pay. He pronounced himself impressed by Vladimir Putin's poll numbers in Russia.

And I guarantee you—I guaran-damn-tee you—he went back to the boatload of whackadoo Scottie Nells currently swimming in his wake and bragged about how he'd nailed that thing. (I am now more convinced than ever that at least a couple of the debates are not going to come off.) He was the whole show. There's no question about it. He is putting the entire American democracy to the hardest electoral test it's known since 1860. He is putting American political journalism to the sternest test it's ever known.

(And, alas, The New York Times flunked, again.)

One of the major party candidates is a boastful ignoramus. This is now beyond dispute. This is the one immutable fact of the matter from now until November. This is now the challenge for our political system, including the journalists tasked to cover it. There no longer is any reason to give him the benefit of the doubt on any question. He will not pivot. He will not moderate. He will not learn. He knows everything he needs to know. Just ask him. He doesn't know what he doesn't know and he's proud that he doesn't know it.

posted by palindromic at 9:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [77 favorites]

So is Gary Johnson Ralph Wiggum all growed up?
posted by guiseroom at 9:53 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hillary is taking the stage now.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton rally live now.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Lauer’s forum treated a normal candidate as an abnormal one and an abnormal candidate as a normal one. He abdicated the press’s role to ask the most important questions even when they aren’t the most controversial ones, and to challenge candidates when they lie to the American people or offer policy proposals that would put the country in terrible danger.

Lauer didn’t do this because he is biased, or because he is inattentive — he did it because he is used to reporting on elections from a place of rough equivalence, and he is flummoxed by this election, which offers no such safe harbor for journalists uncomfortable with the very real differences between the two parties’ nominees.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:57 AM on September 8, 2016 [36 favorites]

Matt Lauer’s Gift to Donald Trump by Frank Rich: Is Lauer a Trump supporter? I doubt it. But his incompetence and double standard have handed Trump a big post–Labor Day gift just as the polls are tightening.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:59 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

If anyone has amazing video editing skills hit me up I have a tight meme idea where we edit Democratic speech intros so that it looks like they are coming out to Just Blaze Beats.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:00 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

The cynical part of me is trying to decipher the motives of Glenn Beck in his op-ed in the NY Times calling for emapthy and understanding with Black Lives Matter and other social movements.

I haven't followed his writings at all recently but perhaps he has actually turned a point in his life where he recognizes the need to listen to others including the marginalized and for empathy of them, as basic of a human characteristic that is.
posted by fizzix at 10:00 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

So back in the day, the Today Show ran a cheesy segment called Where in The World is Matt Lauer? (come for the version of the Carmen Sandiego theme song, stay for Matt's ridiculous shorts) where they would send him various landmarks so he could basically go "look where I am now." I so wish that series could be revived now so Matt could be shipped off to a variety of increasingly awful places for our amusement.
posted by zachlipton at 10:01 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yeah, but I don't want to see any on-location segments filmed from deep within Trump's ass.
posted by palomar at 10:02 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Glenn Beck is Alex Jones style cuckoo, so he has no shits to give about taking a position as long as its not centrist.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:02 AM on September 8, 2016

mhum, thank you for the explanation: I was out running errands last night and didn't see the event nor the follow-up coverage.

The example you provide shows Healy being a lot easier on Trump than the original; piece, so... I think I am coming around to your point of view.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:03 AM on September 8, 2016

Hillary going off on Voter Suppression in NC to a very receptive crowd. She's dropping Gs on them bammas! Campaign time y'all.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:03 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Tom Scocca: The New York Times Doesn't Know What Aleppo Is, Either:

Everyone agrees that Gary Johnson, who is pretending to be an actual candidate for the presidency under the banner of the Libertarian Party, humiliated himself this morning by not knowing what “Aleppo” was. The New York Times immediately read his embarrassing gaffe into the record. It wrote:
“What is Aleppo?” Mr. Johnson said when asked on MSNBC how, as president, he would address the refugee crisis in the Syrian city that is the de facto capital of the Islamic State.

The Syrian city of Aleppo is not the de facto capital of the Islamic State. When the New York Times was apprised of this, it quickly rewrote the piece:
“What is Aleppo?” Mr. Johnson said when asked on MSNBC how, as president, he would address the refugee crisis in the Syrian city that is a stronghold of the Islamic State.

Aleppo is also not a stronghold of the Islamic State. Here is a concise account of the state of the politics of the fighting in Aleppo:
In Aleppo, the forces fighting the government range from groups with American backing to factions that until recently were officially affiliated with Al Qaeda. The Islamic State is not a player in the city.

That is from a story on the Times’ website today, written by Anne Barnard, who has been steadily covering the horrors of Aleppo for the newspaper.

posted by palindromic at 10:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [46 favorites]

The cynical part of me is trying to decipher the motives of Glenn Beck in his op-ed in the NY Times calling for emapthy and understanding with Black Lives Matter and other social movements.

Glenn Beck is crazy, but not disingenuous. See his condemnation of Trump, for example. He torched his prime Fox News show just to get the word out on what he saw as a conspiracy.

I don't doubt he's genuine.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

NC Speech: She's hawking her book lol. Good idea: Now she can always point to it as her real plans vs Trumps handwavy bullshit.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:06 AM on September 8, 2016

Glenn Beck is a shill and a huckster. His base abandoned him, so now he's trying the other side. Don't give him the time of day.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:07 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm really glad I'm watching this, she's killing it. Very smooth, very conversational, especially on Equal Pay for Equal work.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:08 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

NC Speech: She's hawking her book lol. Good idea: Now she can always point to it as her real plans vs Trumps handwavy bullshit.

Hold on a minute...Trump has a piece of paper in his pocket...he'll show it to you if you want...
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:09 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump can always counter with his own books, the ones written by Tony Schwartz, who now loathes him.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:10 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unless I'm thinking about a different kind of grant, the best part about these grants, to the minds of conservatives, is that they generally don't come with any requirements vis a vis how to use them and so they can be spent on whatever the governor and state legislature feel like spending them on. This allows them to hurt poor people and get free money from the feds, a double victory.

And these same conservatives decry a lot of foreign aid because "warlords will just take it before it gets to the people". Projection, yet again.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:11 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Meredith write me a book!"

"OK boss ur the best hee hee"

"Put an Isis plan in it!"

"U bet hee hee hee"

[Secret Service agent outside bathroom: Who is he talking to in there?]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

She's really getting good at this. I like her conversational, anecdotal style. her voice sounds a bit fatigued when she ramps it up, but that stands to reason.
I get all hopeful listening to her rally speeches.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:14 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Glenn Beck is a shill and a huckster.

Isn't he also a wannabe media mogul? Maybe his opposition to Trump is simply a preemptive attempt to take down the competition?
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:15 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Talk about reorganizing agencies or reducing spending, sure, but don't pretend that we can eliminate every single function these agencies perform.

Sure you can! Cancel all existing student loans but make it up in the long run by never ever loaning money in the future to students. The census? Just hire the best people to make the best estimate. After all, we're already 'not really' counting actual people and doing statistics anyway. Shit, Hypothetical President Trump could pull a Chinese student out of Trump U, threaten them to deport them, and make them do it for free! If you eliminate the departments that actually produce pesky things like economic data and so called "statistics", we'll just go back to good 'ole gut feeling to base decisions on and have no more of this ivory-tower academic eliteism nonsense.
posted by fragmede at 10:17 AM on September 8, 2016

I know I normally do Hamilton here, but I think the "Where in The World is Matt Lauer?" song needs a rewrite:

Well he bungles up an interview with Trump and H. R. Clinton
He's a big equivocator from emails down to Putin
He'll let Trump spout nonsense 'bout the war in Iraq
Tell me what in the world is wrong with Matt Lauer?

Spend half her time on emails, ask what's wrong with your judgement
But when it's time for ISIS, he'll be rushing her along
Then he makes her guarantee ya that she'll stop every bad guy
Tell me what in the world is wrong with Matt Lauer?

He go from Emails to Emails, Emails to Emails,
Emails to Emails and back!

Well then he'll nod his head at whatever Trump is selling
Then he'll shrug his solders, I guess Don's got a plan
He'll list off problems with Putin, and then he drops the subject
Tell me what in the world is wrong with Matt Lauer?
posted by zachlipton at 10:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

She's dropping Gs on them bammas!

what
posted by zutalors! at 10:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

ending Temporary Assistance for Needy Families programs

I work at a food pantry that feeds seven thousand people a month, mostly through the TEFAP program. Killing that assistance would be devastating, for us and for the people we serve.
posted by EarBucket at 10:21 AM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

I know I normally do Hamilton here, but I think the "Where in The World is Matt Lauer?" song needs a rewrite:

When you don't try at all and you don't succeed.
You can't always get what you want and not what you need.
When you feel so dirty that you can't sleep.
Stuck in Trump's universe.
posted by Talez at 10:21 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I know I normally do Hamilton here, but I think the "Where in The World is Matt Lauer?" song needs a rewrite:

DO IT ROCKAPELLA!
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:22 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

If you eliminate the departments that actually produce pesky things like economic data and so called "statistics", we'll just go back to good 'ole gut feeling to base decisions on and have no more of this ivory-tower academic eliteism nonsense.

Probably the best summary of the Republican/Trump platform ever written.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:22 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

defenestration: Also, the attacks against Hillary for coughing are killing me too.

Trump's “rape in the military” tweet that he defended last night is this:

“26,000 unreported sexual assults in the military-only 238 convictions. What did these geniuses expect when they put men & women together?”

So, he's going beyond "boys will be boys" to "boys will be unstoppable rapists, keep the womenfolk away"?

zombieflanders: Paul Ryan's Zika Antics Prove He Deserves Trump

Except this isn't "Paul Ryan picks a new BFF" where we get to laugh and point and say "look what you did to yourself" when Trump tells Ryan "hey dummy, your shoelace is untied" and when Ryan looks down, Trump punches him in the ear, it's the election where the people of the United States vote for their leader for the next four years.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Do you remember being the responsible kid at school (or at home) and catching hell while some slack-jawed boy looked out of the window behind you? And then the adult in charge would catch the look in your eye and say defensively, "Well, I expect better from YOU"?

This seems to be the thought process behind major media figures' treatment of Hillary. It may be directly tied to fear for some of them, as Sarah Kendzior suggests, but I also think that a number of them are simply bubble-dwellers who don't understand the harm they are capable of doing in this election.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [41 favorites]

Instead of me they select Mattie
Make him moderator man
I'm a journalist, whee!
yeah, all the real news-men deplore him
He shits the bed at the C.I.C. forum
posted by cmfletcher at 10:27 AM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

I don't understand anything about this election. It's a collective madness.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:29 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

What Really Happened at Donald Trump's Intelligence Briefing

As U.S. officials cast doubt on Donald Trump's claim he read the "body language" of intelligence officials at a recent briefing, NBC News has learned exclusive details of what unfolded in the room — one of Trump's advisers repeatedly interrupted the briefers until Chris Christie intervened, sources said.
. . .
Two sources said Christie, the New Jersey governor and Trump adviser, verbally restrained Flynn -- one saying Christie said, "Shut up," the other reporting he said, "Calm down." Two other sources said Christie touched Flynn's arm in an effort get him to calm down and let the officials continue. Requests for comment from Flynn and Christie were not immediately returned.

posted by Atom Eyes at 10:30 AM on September 8, 2016 [65 favorites]

Real???
posted by Artw at 10:32 AM on September 8, 2016

I'm so used to the Owen Ellickson fictional dispatches from the Trump campaign that my first reaction was, "Christie? Oh, you mean Hole?"
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:33 AM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

[Real, somefuckinghow]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:36 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

HRC x Humans of NY (worth a read, very moving)
posted by acidic at 10:37 AM on September 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

I've nicknamed him Reek, m'self.
posted by Mooski at 10:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Two sources said Christie, the New Jersey governor and Trump adviser, verbally restrained Flynn -- one saying Christie said, "Shut up," the other reporting he said, "Calm down." Two other sources said Christie touched Flynn's arm in an effort get him to calm down and let the officials continue.

Oh my loving God. I cannot wait for the HBO movie of this. Maybe with Paul Giamatti as Chris Christie. Of course, that will assume that Hillary wins, because on top of everything else I don't think it would be safe to make an unflattering Trump movie under a Trump administration. It was all very well to make arty movies about assassination under GWB's administration, but I think it would honestly be physically unsafe to do so if Trump were President.

Someone on Twitter was complaining about how people are constantly compelled to compare this election to fiction with many a hot take about Game of Thrones, etc. Then she answered herself by saying that our sense of narrative has come so undone that we're just reaching for whatever seems safest. I'm afraid that may be true of me.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

HIT DO IT ROCKAPELLA!
posted by leotrotsky at 10:38 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

I can only assume they were mean about Putin in front of his lackey.
posted by Artw at 10:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's unusual that I'd warn you not to read the HONY comments, but don't read the HONY comments.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:42 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm so old I can remember when "Listen to the Generals" was GOP dogma. Now they're expected to just show up for photo ops and keep their mouths shut.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Behind scenes, NBC execs concede Matt Lauer forum performance was "disaster"

"One executive, speaking anonymously, was blunt about it: "Disaster."

The morning after Lauer's back-to-back interviews of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, several high ranking sources at the network said they hear the criticism and agree with at least some of it."

Yeah, I mean who could've possibly foreseen Matt Lauer not being up to the job?
posted by chris24 at 10:45 AM on September 8, 2016 [36 favorites]

I'm so used to the Owen Ellickson fictional dispatches from the Trump campaign that my first reaction was, "Christie? Oh, you mean Hole?"

I definitely immediately pictured that incident occurring in a Sbarro.
posted by yasaman at 10:45 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump gets his intelligence from reading body language? Isn't this the way Bush and Cheney got the U.S. into the Iraq war -- by hearing what they wanted to hear rather than what the intelligence briefers actually said?
posted by JackFlash at 10:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

What Really Happened at Donald Trump's Intelligence Briefing

that whole thing is worth a read, though I'm confused that it's on NBC News the day after they had "Tea With Donald"
posted by zutalors! at 10:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

They should have just had Martin Sheen do it. He'd have been better than Lauer, right? And the ratings would have been higher?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

that whole thing is worth a read, though I'm confused that it's on NBC News the day after they had "Tea With Donald"

I don't think they mean to have Tea With Donald, it's just that their way of working ensures that Tea With Donald will happen.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Did nobody at NBC even notice that a couple weeks ago Lauer got bad reviews for his work on the Olympics? If you can't handle the Rio Opening Ceremonies, how can you be expected to do real news?
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:49 AM on September 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

They should have just had Martin Sheen do it. He'd have been better than Lauer, right?

I wish they'd put Lawrence O'Donnell in there.
posted by zutalors! at 10:50 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Heads Up. Josh Marshall is doing an AMA in like 5 minutes over on /r/politics if anyone wants to get some questions in.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:51 AM on September 8, 2016

You know the funny thing is, if Trump was actually tied into working class veterans, this would have been the easiest thing in the world. "I don't know much about this, but unlike my opponent, I admit it! That's why I've hired General James "Mad Dog" Mattis, who will be handling my military and veteran affairs! Also, your first beer is free on Trump Properties!"
posted by corb at 10:51 AM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

I mean, what was Joy Reid doing last night? Or Melissa Harris-Perry?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:51 AM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

> But Lauer's interviewing skills are second to none. He has hosted thousands of episodes of the "Today" show.

The only time I see the Today show is when I visit my parents and it's on in the background while we make breakfast or whatever, but aren't the toughest questions he has to ask there along the lines of "Tell me about this fabulous movie you have premiering this weekend!" or "This is delicious! Where can I get the recipe?"
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:54 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I mean, what was Joy Reid doing last night? Or Melissa Harris-Perry?

Unless I missed something, the latter is no longer with MSNBC.

Reid would have been amazing, but of course we know that's precisely why she wouldn't be considered for that job.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:54 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, what was Joy Reid doing last night? Or Melissa Harris-Perry?

Being black women? Matt Lauer didn't get where his is today by being a black woman.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:55 AM on September 8, 2016 [98 favorites]

Unless I missed something, the latter is no longer with MSNBC.

I don't even care though. They should have brought her back to destroy Trump.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think you kind of have to read "Lauer's interviewing skills are second to none" as "Lauer's not-fucking-up-a-live-broadcast skills are second to none" which while still debatable at least more accurately reflects what they really seem to care about.
posted by feloniousmonk at 10:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

One of the differences between chess and go is how the game ends. In go, there's no equivalent of a checkmate - no point where the one player makes a finishing move and the game is unambiguously over. Instead, you play until you decide you can no longer take any more territory or capture any more enemy stones, and then pass. If your opponent feels the same way, she also passes, and then you count up all the territory and prisoners to find out who won. In most cases it's pretty clear when all available territory is claimed and everything on the board is unkillable, but you'll occasionally see someone grab a hard-to-see point after their opponent passes, or (usually in low-level games) go for a last minute hail mary attack. But if someone is very new to the game, or is just being a perverse dick, they can prolong a lost game almost indefinitely by just playing junk moves every time their opponent passes. There's no rule to prevent this - go is basically broken if the players don't share a basic respect for the game and each other. Anyway, this fucking election
posted by theodolite at 10:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [85 favorites]

That's why I think Lawrence O'Donnell would have been perfect. He gives off "easy goin' white guy" really well, but he's pretty progressive by cable news host standards. Also his calmness would give a good backdrop for Trump's craziness - if you've seen the Weiner documentary there's a pretty great bit where Weiner buries himself needlessly on O'Donnell's show. It was pretty brilliant, and I don't even dislike Anthony Weiner.
posted by zutalors! at 10:57 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Those poor intelligence briefers must have gone through some serious torture resistance training in order to be able to maintain a straight face when going from the competent Clinton briefing to the Trump clown show briefing.

Eh, they're used to arguments in the room. Any decent briefer can snap into his or her happy place when the big dogs start barking.
posted by Etrigan at 10:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd like to see Today show alum Soledad O'Brien take him on. She clearly has no problem calling out the media on Trump.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

If there's one thing positive about this election, it's that it has re-kindled my appreciation for Stephen King:
Instead of holding Trump's feet to the fire, Matt Lauer seemed to warm his hands at The Donald's celebrity glow. A poor showing.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:58 AM on September 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

WaPo has some fun giving Hillary Clinton advice on achieving that presidential look.

Ulysses S. Grant
Start buttoning your vest, then stop. What’s the point? What's the point of anything?
posted by numaner at 11:00 AM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

But if someone is very new to the game, or is just being a perverse dick, they can prolong a lost game almost indefinitely by just playing junk moves every time their opponent passes. There's no rule to prevent this - go is basically broken if the players don't share a basic respect for the game and each other.

Uh, eventually you run out of places to put stones, and you've still lost. Agreeing that the game is over just saves everyone time. It's not like you can convert a loss to a win.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:00 AM on September 8, 2016

(Zutalors: she was dropping her Gs in words like workin' but very naturally imo. Bammas is a DC slang term meaning "rustic folks" which I was teasing the NC crowd with. I'm having a 3 beer lunch so probably contributes to my giddiness.)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'd like to see Today show alum Soledad O'Brien take him on. She clearly has no problem calling out the media on Trump.

Or actual reporter Ann Curry. Or Georgetown Law grad Savannah Guthrie. Or even Katie f-ing Couric. Remember her Palin interview?

Or literally anyone else on that show, including Al Roker, who it least wasn't buffaloed by Ryan Lochte.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:05 AM on September 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

Uh, eventually you run out of places to put stones, and you've still lost.

You're right, but it goes on for ages and at the end the board looks like shit.
posted by theodolite at 11:06 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

How the hell does the Trump campaign leak so much? The NBC report says "there were fewer than 10 people in the room at Trump's briefing," and NBC News has "four people with knowledge of the matter?" Certainly, people can have "knowledge of the matter" who weren't in the room where it happened, but that's an alarming number of people all lining up to attack Flynn at once.
posted by zachlipton at 11:07 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

SO WHAT?!

So he backs out, throws a hissy fit, and either MSNBC replaces her or the forum never happens. He's not Constitutionally-obligated to show up, and he knows he has the upper hand. MSNBC needed Trump on their network more than Trump needed to be there.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:08 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

For me, I'm not rooting for journalists, or whatever the hell someone like Matt Lauer is, to be openly partisan when doing their jobs. I just expect competence and a fair handling of the topics or candidates. If that occurs, then there is no necessity for "going after Trump" Trump is more than capable of digging his own grave. Report the whole stories, stop chasing ratings and "Brand identity" in political coverage and confront vagueness and lies when they are presented. Do that with the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign in equal measure and the information, or lack thereof, will present itself plainly.

That this isn't likely to happen is of little surprise since the great interest nowadays is more closely aligned with narrative than meaning, both for the candidates and parties and for those doing the "reporting" and those at home observing it all. I'm sure some of this has always been present, but the level of it seems ever increasing.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:09 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Tbh I don't think Matt Lauer did THAT bad a job really. He should have pushed Trump more and interrupted Hillary much much less. But by letting Trump talk we got some gold like him shooting his mouth off about the intelligence briefing. I dunno. Also! This sets expectations for the debate differently so if Trump does short circuit and start babbling in #1 Lester Holt can be praised for hammering him.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:10 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

You're right, but it goes on for ages and at the end the board looks like shit.

I'll solve. What are Trump's speeches and appearance, respectively?
posted by leotrotsky at 11:12 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

that's an alarming number of people all lining up to attack Flynn at once.

The Trump campaign staff (such as it is) has been strategically leaking all along, for a few reasons, all rooted in them not really believing that he's going to win. By being good sources, they get to tell their version of the story. There's also presumably some component of internal fighting (and Flynn is somewhat known in the military and intelligence communities as being... let's say unpopular with his peers and subordinates).
posted by Etrigan at 11:13 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Or even Katie f-ing Couric. Remember her Palin interview?

Have you rewatched that famous magazine stumper lately? Palin's campaign-sinking response would barely merit a sarcastic tweet in 2016.
posted by theodolite at 11:14 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bammas is a DC slang term meaning "rustic folks"

That's not my impression of what it means - but that can go in the existing MeTa on language usage.
posted by zutalors! at 11:15 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

So he backs out, throws a hissy fit, and either MSNBC replaces her or the forum never happens.

Then he demonstrates once again that he is a coward, running scared from a woman (as he did in the Megyn Kelly situation). Fox News didn't fall for Trump's bullshit, and neither should NBC.
posted by zakur at 11:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Reid would have been amazing, but of course we know that's precisely why she wouldn't be considered for that job.

Maddow would have been a decent choice -- she wrote a book about secret warfare, privatised warfare, the surrender of Congressional war-making powers, and the normalisation of state-of-war while distancing its consequences from most civilians -- and I suspect pretty tough on Clinton, but no way would Team Trump have agreed.
posted by holgate at 11:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Meanwhile, a Siberian river has turned to blood
posted by theodolite at 11:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

How the hell does the Trump campaign leak so much?

I get the feeling there's a lot of civil war and back stabbing going on in the Trump camp. Everyone wants to be the one pulling the puppet's strings.
posted by dis_integration at 11:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Tbh I don't think Matt Lauer did THAT bad a job really.

Josh Marshall just posted on a similar theme and I don't entirely disagree. He did have some hardhitting moments. But, and here's the rub for me, Lauer was pretty terrible during Clinton's interview. He spent a third of the time on emails and was constantly interrupting her, cutting off almost all her answers and proding her to discuss complex national security topics more quickly. The bit where he demanded a quick answer to "how will you defeat ISIS" before she even opened her mouth was a real low. Basically every question, Lauer was trying to cut her off.

It would have been one thing for him to try to intervene if Clinton was giving long answers to filibuster, but that's not what was happening. There's an argument that it would have been better political strategy to give shorter less wonkish answers, but that's not who she is, and it's not really Lauer's job as an interviewer to force one of the foremost experts in world affairs to have ten word answers on military strategy and foreign policy.
posted by zachlipton at 11:19 AM on September 8, 2016 [41 favorites]

Then he demonstrates once again that he is a coward, running scared from a woman (as he did in the Megyn Kelly situation). Fox News didn't fall for Trump's bullshit, and neither should NBC.

If you think he'd suffer any negative consequences from backing out of a forum on MSNBC of all places, you're watching a different election than I am. Until today, I guess, he had an actual blacklist of media he simply won't talk to because they're not demonstrating enough subservience to him. I do not think it would have played out like the Kelly thing at all.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:22 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

WATCH: Conway utters the dread syllable דָם while spilling the ceremonial wine
posted by theodolite at 11:22 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

But, and here's the rub for me, Lauer was pretty terrible during Clinton's interview. He spent a third of the time on emails

I didn't see it live, and it sounds like I'd agree. But that's also not what he's being criticized on. People are saying he went easy on Trump, and outside of pressing him on the Iraq war lie, i don't know if I agree that he missed a chance to press him on something that would be useful for viewers to hear from a moderator on.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:26 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I didn't see it live, and it sounds like I'd agree. But that's also not what he's being criticized on. People are saying he went easy on Trump, and outside of pressing him on the Iraq war lie, i don't know if I agree that he missed a chance to press him on something that would be useful for viewers to hear from a moderator on.

"Do you really compare avoiding STDs to soldiers dying in Vietnam?"

"How are those bone spurs?"

"Do you really think PoWs aren't heros?"

"Do you regret shitting on Gold Star families? Would you go about the situation differently today?"

"Why have you still not lived up to your promises with the money you've pledged to help veterans?"

Any of the above maybe?

And bonus question for Trump to hang himself on: "Do you see a place for the military in enforcing your immigration policies?"
posted by Talez at 11:32 AM on September 8, 2016 [45 favorites]

> And Greenwald has crawled up his own ass again regarding the pushback on media reporting on the Clinton Foundation.

No, people aren't trying to delegitimize all negative reporting on her. They would just like the media to be more honest.

We're Just Asking for The New York Times' Political Coverage to Make Sense
posted by homunculus at 11:32 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

WATCH: Conway utters the dread syllable דָם while spilling the ceremonial wine

I have been getting scorched with the sun recently.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:34 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

And bonus question for Trump to hang himself on: "Do you see a place for the military in enforcing your immigration policies?"

A vet did ask him that.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:37 AM on September 8, 2016

If you think he'd suffer any negative consequences from backing out of a forum on MSNBC of all places, you're watching a different election than I am.

A first-of-its-kind "Commander in Chief" forum, co-sponsored by a leading Veterans organization. He would have taken a hit.
posted by zakur at 11:37 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bammas is a DC slang term meaning "rustic folks"

Also not a very widely used one, since I have never heard it.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:37 AM on September 8, 2016

Bama shows up in a Beyonce lyric, y'all. It's not new.

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/02/10/466178725/in-beyonc-s-formation-a-song-for-the-bama

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bama
posted by palomar at 11:39 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Do you see a place for the military in enforcing your immigration policies?

Violating the Posse Comitatus Act probably doesn't even make the top ten list of criminal acts proposed by Trump.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:41 AM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

A first-of-its-kind "Commander in Chief" forum, co-sponsored by a leading Veterans organization. He would have taken a hit.

He takes worse hits daily, self-inflicted and otherwise, sometimes many per day. It would bounce off like so many others have. He doesn't care, and he's rewarded for that by voters and the media.
posted by tonycpsu at 11:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

A vet did ask him that.

No. She asked if illegals who serve should be treated differently not baiting him into saying he'd violate Posse Comitatus.
posted by Talez at 11:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, this is not bad:

NYT: Hillary Clinton excoriated Donald J. Trump on Thursday for asserting that the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin, was a better leader than President Obama, saying Mr. Trump’s praise for the authoritarian leader of an adversarial power “is not just unpatriotic and insulting to the people of our country, as well as to our commander in chief, it is scary.” [...] “It suggests he will let Putin do whatever Putin wants to do, and then make excuses for him,” Mrs. Clinton [said], ratcheting up her oratory as polls indicate the race has tightened — and as Mr. Trump continues to say things rarely heard before from a major party presidential nominee.

It plays right into the "he said, she said", "we report, you decide" dynamic.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Others within NBC were considered as potential moderators. A source said Chuck Todd, Andrea Mitchell and Rachel Maddow all came up during the process. Lack went with Lauer, and both campaigns supported the choice. (The Trump campaign almost certainly would have objected to Maddow as moderator.)

zakur: SO WHAT?! I fucking hate that everyone treats this idiot with kid gloves. If the media are so afraid of doing anything objectionable to Trump, how can we expect anything meaningful from them?

The worst part is Trump doesn't have much leverage: it's not like he's some recluse who only comes out of hiding to give a rare interview, so if he says "no, she'll be mean to me and make me answer tough questions with real answers" and he doesn't show up, who loses besides Trump for looking like the coward he is? The station because he wasn't there to boost ratings. That's it, right? You're not being biased if a candidate for POTUS backs down from a public debate, unless you're offering them a one-on-one fight with a lion, while you serve their opponent tea.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:46 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Meet the little-known statistician behind the Democratic nominee's most important strategic decisions (Politico)
Probably especially interesting for those volunteering, as it talks a bit about how they target outreach.
posted by une_heure_pleine at 11:47 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ooh I see my bad Talez. Yeah that would have been a good one. Literally moderators should just ask him stuff like "Would you ever consider letting the military quarter in private homes just for fun or what?"
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:51 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

cmfletcher: Violating the Posse Comitatus Act probably doesn't even make the top ten list of criminal acts proposed by Trump.

While I'd love to see a list of Illegal Things Proposed By Trump If He Were President, I can't see that doing anything but riling up both sides for opposing reasons: opponents get to nod along and say "yeah, he's a terrible man," while supporters could say "he never really mean those things" and/or "he'd just change the laws, they're so old that they don't matter any more."

As tonycpsu wrote, He takes worse hits daily, self-inflicted and otherwise, sometimes many per day. It would bounce off like so many others have. He doesn't care, and he's rewarded for that by voters and the media.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:51 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bama shows up in a Beyonce lyric, y'all. It's not new.

It's my understanding that it's not to be used outside black culture, is all.
posted by zutalors! at 11:52 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

In the past month he's advocated use of nuclear weapons, targeting families, wars of aggression to "get the oil", and torture amounting to "doing the unthinkable". The top ten may not even need to include a single domestic law.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

WaPo: Liar. Narcissist. Racist. These suburban women really, really don’t like Trump.

"What was particularly striking was how deeply negative views of Trump’s character and temperament had taken hold. Several described him as a narcissist or an egotist, with one claiming “his entire campaign is just about his ego.” One described his statements as “racist.” One said he had “tapped into” a “climate of hatred.” One described him flatly as a “joke.” One referenced his “reality TV” candidacy. When concerns were raised about his temperament, there was broad agreement around the table. Some even seemed uncertain about his business acumen, with one mentioning his bankruptcies.

“These ought to be voters that a Republican candidate is making headway with,” Greenberg tells me. “He’s a business oriented candidate who is thinking anew about the Republican Party. But these voters are closed off to him. I’ve never seen ticket-splitters as locked in on the presidential level. They aren’t partisans. They aren’t ideological. These voters, you would expect to erode. But they are so firm in their determination to vote against Trump or for Hillary.”"
posted by chris24 at 12:13 PM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Liar. Narcissist. Racist. These suburban women really, really don’t like Trump.

And I don't think mansplaining rape stats helped him on this front.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:14 PM on September 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

It's my theory that just about every woman has had to deal much too closely with an assclown like Trump in her work or personal life. We recognize him.
posted by Miko at 12:15 PM on September 8, 2016 [74 favorites]

It's my understanding that it's not to be used outside black culture, is all.

Says who?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

DC-area folk here. I don't hear it much but I haven't heard anyone talk about it as if it were a reclaimed slur or at all out of the ordinary. Seems to be basically the same as saying go-go - you may not hear it far from here much at all, but nobody talks about it like it's hands-off. Now, it might come to be problematic based on misunderstanding, a la niggardly, but in a similar way: folks who don't know its history are the ones more likely to be uncomfortable.
posted by phearlez at 12:16 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think a lot of women--especially but not exclusively highly educated women--recognize a lot about what is going on in this election. Not just that Trump is just like that atrocious, harassing boss they once had, but allll the stuff about how smart, competent women get treated vs. any rando dude who bothers to show up. The double-standards, the numerous ways in which you just. cannot, win. The way people talk about Hillary's appearance, just all of it. It's like watching our lives writ large. Appalling, but far from surprising for a lot of professional women.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [81 favorites]

I mean the NPR link pretty specifically uses the word bama to connect to blackness, so "Says that black author" I guess.
posted by zutalors! at 12:21 PM on September 8, 2016

So if Trump is driving away every demographic EXCEPT white males, what kind of ridiculously high percentage of white males are supporting him to keep him in this race? How many tens or hundreds of thousands of white males who voted for Obama in 2012 have switched over to the Cheeto Bandito? Is there THAT MUCH white male insecurity over the size of their... hands?
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:24 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

"After his speech, Johnson wandered around the convention greeting voters and conducted a round of interviews. One reporter asked him about the lack of diversity in the Libertarian Party, which, as some people remember from college dorm-room discussions, tends to attract a disproportionate number of young white males. Johnson said that there was no diversity problem, and that the Party would do better in nonwhite communities as he became better known. A few minutes later, an aide directed him to a room in the convention center that was named for Harriet Tubman. “Who’s Harriet Tubman?” Johnson asked. (After the aide reminded him who Tubman was, Johnson recalled that she will appear on a new twenty-dollar bill.)"

The New Yorker : The Libertarians’ Secret Weapon by Ryan Lizza

With apologies if this has been shared before, but in light of his Aleppo gaffe, this seemed relevant again.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:25 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Is there THAT MUCH white male insecurity over the size of their... hands?

This is another one of those things that a whole lot of women already know the answer to just by dint of existing as a woman. Short answer: yeah, kind of a lot.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:30 PM on September 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

what kind of ridiculously high percentage of white males

That depends on how many people from every other demographic you can keep from voting.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

> "Meredith write me a book!"

"OK boss ur the best hee hee"

Hmm... Meredith McIver : John Barron :: Valerie Flame : Derrick Childrens? [fake (probably)]
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:34 PM on September 8, 2016

So if Trump is driving away every demographic EXCEPT white males, what kind of ridiculously high percentage of white males are supporting him to keep him in this race?

I've been saying this repeatedly but, not enough.
posted by zutalors! at 12:34 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump: "I know more about ISIS than the generals, believe me."

Remember back in the primaries when he said "I have more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military" because he spent some time as a teenager at boarding school marching around the quad with a toy wooden rifle.

Why do veterans respect this guy who so disrespects them?
posted by JackFlash at 12:34 PM on September 8, 2016 [38 favorites]

I think it's easy to overgeneralize from these demographic analyses. Yes, Trump is losing among women, and is only really strongly supported among whites, particularly white males. But even in the white-male demographic, he's only got around 70-75% support. And that's not drastically higher than Romney, who I think had around 60-65%.

Anyway, #notallwhitemen...
posted by skewed at 12:36 PM on September 8, 2016

> Not just that Trump is just like that atrocious, harassing boss they once had, but allll the stuff about how smart, competent women get treated vs. any rando dude who bothers to show up.

Somebody with more Photoshop skill than I have should make one of those HOPE posters with a picture of Trump and the words "RICH," "WHITE," or "MALE."
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:36 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

> How do you complain directly to the NYT?

email the Public Editor [public@nytimes.com]. WNYC's On the Media from a few weeks ago about the late and scant national coverage of Louisiana flooding: "The New York Times published its first story by a staff reporter on the evening of Aug. 14. Last week, the public editor of The Times published an apology for the newspaper's lack of timely coverage."

Recent article on the NYT's coverage of Cheeto's Mexico trip & AZ speech: The News From Trump Changed. The Main Story Was Slow to Catch Up.
posted by morganw at 12:37 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why do veterans respect this guy who so disrespects them?

Republicanism runs deep in the military. So does not liking Hillary (or Bill) Clinton. If it were pretty much any other Democrat (especially if it were one who'd been in the military), Trump would probably be straight-up losing the military vote.
posted by Etrigan at 12:38 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Basically, the (stupid) Trump election strategy is that he's going to get white nonvoters to the polls. Fortunately, he's just not as motivating as he thinks he is.
posted by corb at 12:39 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

There are about 22 million veterans in the US. Over half of them are over 65.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:41 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clinton's statement to Humans of NY is powerful:

“I was taking a law school admissions test in a big classroom at Harvard. My friend and I were some of the only women in the room. I was feeling nervous. I was a senior in college. I wasn’t sure how well I’d do. And while we’re waiting for the exam to start, a group of men began to yell things like: ‘You don’t need to be here.’ And ‘There’s plenty else you can do.’ It turned into a real ‘pile on.’ One of them even said: ‘If you take my spot, I’ll get drafted, and I’ll go to Vietnam, and I'll die.’ And they weren’t kidding around. It was intense. It got very personal. But I couldn’t respond. I couldn’t afford to get distracted because I didn’t want to mess up the test. So I just kept looking down, hoping that the proctor would walk in the room. I know that I can be perceived as aloof or cold or unemotional. But I had to learn as a young woman to control my emotions. And that’s a hard path to walk. Because you need to protect yourself, you need to keep steady, but at the same time you don’t want to seem ‘walled off.’ And sometimes I think I come across more in the ‘walled off’ arena. And if I create that perception, then I take responsibility. I don’t view myself as cold or unemotional. And neither do my friends. And neither does my family. But if that sometimes is the perception I create, then I can’t blame people for thinking that.”
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:42 PM on September 8, 2016 [139 favorites]

> Trump gets his intelligence from reading body language?

All along, I've been equating Trump with A.I.M.'s M.O.D.A.K., but maybe Trump's actually the new version of Swarm? :
* Reads body language ✓
* Nazi ✓
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 12:43 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Over half of them are over 65.

Sorry, over 60. My point is, it's a shrinking population who is more likely to vote R anyway. The fact that HRC is winning 40-50% of them already is proof of what a stunning failure Trump is with that demographic.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:44 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

But even in the white-male demographic, he's only got around 70-75% support. And that's not drastically higher than Romney, who I think had around 60-65%.

I'm morbidly curious to see what those percentages would be if you subtract out gay white men, Jewish white men, and other groups of men lumped under the umbrella of white that Trump's supporters would want to do away with.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 12:47 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

So who are the voters that keep him only 5 points or less behind?
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:50 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

So who are the voters that keep him only 5 points or less behind?

'Journalists.'
posted by Mooski at 12:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [47 favorites]

We recognize him.

I'm kind of surprised people don't also recognize him as the clueless boss archetype.
posted by drezdn at 12:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

So who are the voters that keep him only 5 points or less behind?

'Journalists.'

Also, "fascists," "racists," and "sexists."
posted by entropicamericana at 12:53 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm kind of surprised people don't also recognize him as the clueless boss archetype.

Oh, they do. The problem is that most of his supporters will take clueless white male boss over competent female boss (or competent black male boss) any day of the week.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:58 PM on September 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

it's great having an incompetent white male boss if you're a white guy, cause you look at him and think, hey! he's white, I'm white! we're both guys! I am also incompetent! that could be ME someday! female boss who knows her shit? well now I'm faced with the realities of my own inadequacies and limitations and fuck that noise
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2016 [79 favorites]

From a Hillary fundraising letter i just received entitled, Matt Lauer.

Last night, during the Commander-in-Chief Forum on live national television, Donald Trump kicked off his evening by lying to the American people about his position on the Iraq War -- and no one stopped to call him on it.

Not only did the moderator, Matt Lauer, fail to fact-check Trump -- he then kept the conversation moving...
posted by Sophie1 at 1:04 PM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

So if Trump is driving away every demographic EXCEPT white males, what kind of ridiculously high percentage of white males are supporting him to keep him in this race?

Those who look at Obama and now Hillary, and fear that holy crap, there might never be another white man elected president ever again.
We hear HRC and have hope for the future, they hear her and see the end of the world as they know it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:08 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unskewing the polls is a dangerous pastime.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

What unknown demographic is driving Trump's results?

Imaginary Friends, Straw Men, and Ida Know.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Those who look at Obama and now Hillary, and fear that holy crap, there might never be another white man elected president ever again.

What about the ones who look at Trump and come to the same conclusion?
posted by Sys Rq at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

WaPo: Inside the collapse of Trump’s D.C. policy shop

Although they signed non-disclosure agreements, several of them told me on background that the Trump policy effort has been a mess from start to finish.

“It’s a complete disaster,” one disgruntled former adviser told me. “They use and abuse people. The policy office fell apart in August when the promised checks weren’t delivered.”

Three former members, all of whom quit in August, told me that as early as April they were promised financial compensation but were later told that they would have to work as volunteers. They say the leaders of the shop, Rick Dearborn and John Mashburn, told many staffers that money was on the way but then were unable to deliver. [...]

The last straw for some came in early August, when the Washington policy shop held two marathon work sessions designed to plan out how to get Trump ready for the policy portions of the upcoming presidential debates. The Washington policy team came up with detailed plans about who would brief Trump on specific policy topics over the course of several weeks.

But after Dearborn worked his staff overtime to get the recommendations, the campaign leadership decided to go in a different direction. “The New York office realized that their candidate would not be receptive to that level of intense preparation,” one former adviser said.

I keep waiting for people to realize that you never, never work for a Trump unless you get paid up front.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:15 PM on September 8, 2016 [71 favorites]

OHenryPacey: "We hear HRC and have hope for the future, they hear her and see the end of the world as they know it."

Why can't we want both?
posted by scrump at 1:16 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Three former members, all of whom quit in August, told me that as early as April they were promised financial compensation but were later told that they would have to work as volunteers.

Create policy for the exposure.
posted by drezdn at 1:18 PM on September 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

"The policy office fell apart in August when the promised checks weren’t delivered."

Cash. Up. Front.
posted by holgate at 1:18 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Presumably the potential hires who asked for cash up front ended up doing something fun on their summer vacation instead
posted by theodolite at 1:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

I'm wondering if we have to add "pollsters" to the list of voters keeping Trump only five points or less behind. The pollsters put out the demographic data which, taken altogether, would suggest at least an eight to ten percentage point lead for Secretary Clinton,

I was trying to say earlier that we don't actually know this, the demographic splits aren't really as big as we think. We constantly hear how weak Trump is with women. Yeah, but he's still getting like 35%. In terms of electoral politics, that is an unbelievable gender gap. But in absolute terms, it's not that big, there are tens and millions of women who support Trump. It may be hard to believe, but even among women, Trump support is not rare at all, it's more common than having blue eyes.

Trump doesn't need 99% of the white male vote, he just needs something like 70-75% (or to get them to come out in dramatically larger numbers). The polls are probably about right, Clinton is ahead, less than she was a few weeks ago, but still significantly ahead (3-6% instead of maybe 6-9%). Presidential races have generally been tight the last few decades, if Clinton wins with 5%, that will be considered something close to a landslide, even though it may be that in a room full of 1000 people, you'd barely be able to tell that there are more Clinton supporters than Trump supporters.
posted by skewed at 1:24 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

This cartoon spoke to me about Trump's practice of (not) paying people and how it would be continued by President Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:24 PM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Will work on contingency? No, money down.
posted by drezdn at 1:24 PM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

"The polls are probably about right . . . ."
posted by skewed at 4:24 PM on September 8 [+] [!]

You may be right, but it's still eponysterical.
posted by kelborel at 1:29 PM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

Even if a person/company got payment upfront for doing a job for a Trump company/campaign, I suspect that entity would be sued after the job ended for non- compliance in some way. Paraphrasing Ivanka, you don't pay for results you don't like. That's a nice, big umbrella for the Trumps.

I, too, have been wondering how this family/campaign can get anyone at all to bid on building jobs, consulting jobs or anything else.
posted by Silverstone at 1:29 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Vox: Understanding how Hillary Clinton would govern
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:30 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

And now people on Twitter and reddit are accusing Clinton of wearing an earpiece for coaching on answers. Their evidence is a zoomed in screengrab of the lights shining off the oily skin of the cavum conchae. [real]

Front page link on drudgereport right now is a straight up link to infowars.com with a wacky theory that HRC had an earpiece in last night.

We're over the mountain and through the woods.
posted by dis_integration at 1:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

All along, I've been equating Trump with A.I.M.'s M.O.D.A.K.

You're not the only one.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

lights shining off the oily skin of the cavum conchae

I would look this up on google but I'm not sure it's safe for work.
posted by JackFlash at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

I, too, have been wondering how this family/campaign can get anyone at all to bid on building jobs, consulting jobs or anything else

Sucker born every minute.

Creates all kind of incentives either to do shitty work in the knowledge that you're going to be stiffed anyway, or just to stiff someone further down the line.

There's a plausible argument that as long as sanity prevails in November, Trump will use the election of Clinton as a way to postpone a reckoning (one he can already see coming) that would wipe out the entire family "business".
posted by holgate at 1:41 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I was trying to say earlier that we don't actually know this, the demographic splits aren't really as big as we think. We constantly hear how weak Trump is with women. Yeah, but he's still getting like 35%. In terms of electoral politics, that is an unbelievable gender gap. But in absolute terms, it's not that big, there are tens and millions of women who support Trump. It may be hard to believe, but even among women, Trump support is not rare at all, it's more common than having blue eyes.

He needs 40% of the Hispanic vote, which is higher than Republicans have had in decades.
posted by zutalors! at 1:41 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

From the same people who brought you the long form birth certificate argument, we will now have discussions of the relative reflectivity of skin versus various plastics and metals.
posted by Mooski at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Conspiracy buffs are the most gullible people.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:46 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

lights shining off the oily skin of the cavum conchae

"All these moments will be lost in time, like tears...in...rain."
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

We hear HRC and have hope for the future, they hear her and see the end of the world as they know it.

We don't need no water...
posted by mikelieman at 1:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Those slick Clintons with their oily ear skin always up to something!
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:53 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh no, Trump is coming to Asheville on Monday. Anybody want to meet up downtown and protest outside? I don't think I could stomach going in.
posted by rikschell at 1:56 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh no, Trump is coming to Asheville on Monday.

Asheville? Who is he coming for?
posted by leotrotsky at 1:58 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

What the hell if she does have an earpiece, or even a hearing aid? There is absolutely no way to prove any such thing was not perfectly neutral. It's beyond useless as a point.

Besides, have they thought through what it would be like to give a live, polished answer with someone speaking it into your ear? If there's one thing people consistently hate about Hillary, it's that she's polished and lawyerly, not repeating something half-comprehended from a source off-camera, unlike certain other candidates.

Drudge has hit bottom. The other day he was trying to stir shit by showing a picture of Hillary next to a burly bodyguard, captioned WHO IS HE? He's a man doing his job, you human fedora.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:59 PM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

Another good analysis from Kevin Drum.

The normally phlegmatic Drum decided after Trump's surreally awful performance on last night's forum to give his readers a peek into what's really going on in his mind when he writes about the Circus Peanut that Walks Like a Man:

Sure, I can churn out blog posts about Trump that are alternatively snarky, shocked, analytical, etc. And God knows, millions of words have been spilled trying to explain the guy. But on the occasions when I stop to really think about this election, my mind goes sort of fugue-like. My mental state is something like this:
What the fuck is going on? Donald Trump! Donald fucking Trump! He's a jackass reality TV star. He's goddamn clueless. For fuck's sake, this can't be happening. Can it? Fucking fuck. Why isn't anyone calling it out? It's like Alice in fucking Wonderland. How can we be doing this? Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
{...} I obviously haven't been a fan of any of the GOP's recent presidential candidates, but I've never felt this way before. We are well and truly down the rabbit hole.
And now Trump's saying that if he'd been president earlier he " would’ve been tougher on terrorism. Bin Laden would’ve been caught a long time ago, before he was ultimately caught, prior to the downing of the World Trade Center." For fuck's sake, this can't be happening. Can it? Fucking fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

posted by Doktor Zed at 2:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

Asheville? Who is he coming for?

County teabaggers, Florida halfbacks, Hendersonville nearly-deads? I-26W is going to be packed with erratically-driven Buicks and Town Cars on Monday lunchtime.
posted by holgate at 2:14 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

> "What the fuck is going on? Donald Trump! Donald fucking Trump! He's a jackass reality TV star. He's goddamn clueless. For fuck's sake, this can't be happening. Can it? Fucking fuck."

I'm right there, too. Somehow, one of the joke candidates is within a few percentage points of becoming president.

It wasn't even a very funny joke.
posted by kyrademon at 2:18 PM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

The other day he was trying to stir shit by showing a picture of Hillary next to a burly bodyguard, captioned WHO IS HE?

This is hilarious to me for some reason.
posted by zutalors! at 2:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm right there, too. Somehow, one of the joke candidates is within a few percentage points of becoming president.

Can I please emigrate to the Deez Nuts timeline
posted by rifflesby at 2:24 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

The other day he was trying to stir shit by showing a picture of Hillary next to a burly bodyguard, captioned WHO IS HE?

The tinfoil theory is that that guy is not actually secret service, but her personal physician, always at the ready to deliver emergency brain surgery and provide cough drops.
posted by dis_integration at 2:26 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Also he probably carries a pillow around.
posted by dis_integration at 2:26 PM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

The Atlantic: Tough Debate Moderation Won't Stop Trump
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:27 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Seriously, Trump in Asheville is potentially going to be messy, and possibly designed to be so by the county GOP.

I'm sure there'll be a ceremonial purification around the civic center afterwards. And I'm also sure that a lot of the downtown restaurants and stores will shut up shop.
posted by holgate at 2:31 PM on September 8, 2016

“The lack of any real effort by Trump to build a political infrastructure is going to hurt all of our candidates in close races,” said Wilson.

Let's damn well hope so.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:31 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Although they signed non-disclosure agreements, several of them told me on background that the Trump policy effort has been a mess from start to finish.

[...]

Three former members, all of whom quit in August, told me that as early as April they were promised financial compensation but were later told that they would have to work as volunteers. They say the leaders of the shop, Rick Dearborn and John Mashburn, told many staffers that money was on the way but then were unable to deliver.

If they didn't get paid, how is the NDA enforceable?
posted by Mister Fabulous at 2:31 PM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

An NDA does not require compensation. NDA's are commonly required to get information required to make a bid on a project. You are still subject to the NDA even if you don't win the bid.
posted by JackFlash at 2:36 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Some additional anecdata about how terrible the media is at all levels: I'm at my parents house in Southern Virginia watching the local news. They're talking about the recent overturning of the conviction for former governor Bob McDonnell. For this segment, they brought on a conservative pundit who was allowed to talk unchallenged for 15 min about how great Bob is and he totally didn't do anything wrong so justice has been served. Followed by a commercial for Trump. I hate everything.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 2:37 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've signed a lot of NDAs for job interviews, too. Unless it was somehow tied directly to their compensation, which I doubt, it's probably a separate issue.
posted by thefoxgod at 2:38 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Is he now saying that he was for the war before he was against it?

This is literally - literally "literally" - what he is saying. Do you think it'll get the non-stop media exposure John Kerry's statement got?
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:46 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

CBS is reporting that additional states had voting hacks. No details yet.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:49 PM on September 8, 2016

Do you think it'll get the non-stop media exposure John Kerry's statement got?

Depends if they can pull a sound bite from his word salad.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:51 PM on September 8, 2016

> "It's unclear, in the absence of a transcript, if he actually, you know, cited any actual statements ..."

Astonishingly, he did not.
posted by kyrademon at 2:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

File under better late than never, I guess: AP deletes tweet
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:56 PM on September 8, 2016

Trump also claimed he gave statements “much closer” to the invasion of Iraq saying he was against the war.

[citation needed]

It really is a DDOS on truth. And it requires use of the word "bullshit" in forums where that is considered naughty.
posted by holgate at 2:57 PM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

File under better late than never, I guess: AP deletes tweet

The reports of the death of journalism have been very slightly exaggerated.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:07 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

File under better late than never, I guess: AP deletes tweet

Better never.

It now will be replaced by a tweet that says:

AP review: Many of the discretionary meetings Clinton had at State were with people who gave to Clinton Foundation. http://apne.ws/2csSI4s

Just keep that ratfucking front and center, AP.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:07 PM on September 8, 2016 [22 favorites]

Also he probably carries a pillow around.

Of course he carries a pillow around. I mean, obviously he carries a pillow. The presence of the pillow that he carries, which lots of people have mentioned, is not the issue.

The question is, the pillow he must be carrying... is that a proppin' pillow? Or is that a smotherin' pillow. Because you just gotta know that Killary is such an OG hardcore killer that she has put a hit out on herself in the event that she ever starts disobeying... herself...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:11 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

This is literally - literally "literally" - what he is saying.

The triple literally! So rare, it means that a statement pretty much means what it says, at least in a figurative sense.
posted by skewed at 3:14 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

NPR's double-standard, gendered expectations article of the day: Clinton Says She 'Can't Blame People' For Viewing Her As Cold Or Unemotional.

TLDR: 60% of people dislike Hillary and she admits it's her fault !! Bad female, bad!

This is what passes for news. GRARRRRR.
posted by Dashy at 3:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

AP review: ~~Many of the discretionary~~ A miniscule minority of meetings Clinton had at State were with people who gave to Clinton Foundation. http://apne.ws/2csSI4s&lt

Dear AP, I see what you didn't want to do there and helped you out, anyway. Please re-re-publish.
posted by Dashy at 3:27 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Be patient, Dashy! These things don't happen instantaneously. Give 'em one fortnight, at least.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

What the heck is a "discretionary meeting" anyway? Surely pretty much any meeting the Secretary of State has is at her discretion (which might be of the form "meet with this person or start a major international incident" whether she actually wants to talk to them or not), short of the President requesting her presence, no?
posted by zachlipton at 3:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

An NDA does not require compensation. NDA's are commonly required to get information required to make a bid on a project. You are still subject to the NDA even if you don't win the bid.
posted by JackFlash at 5:36 PM on September 8

This topic came up last week when we found out that Trump volunteers had to sign a vast NDA in which they promised never to talk disparagingly about Trump, Trump family, or Trump products for the rest of their lives. We did not have a lawyer weigh in on the matter but we thought that since the volunteers were not compensated in any way the NDA could not be enforced. Are you telling me that is wrong? That no compensation is required? Wow that is just amazing. Somebody signs an agreement and for the rest of their life they must obey the NDA guidelines.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:34 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump campaign tricked workers and store owners into appearing in ad — and now they’re furious:

Anderson, a construction worker who is actually planing to vote for Democrat Hillary Clinton in November, said he was approached by a photographer outside his work site in July.

“We thought it had something to do with the building,” he recalled. “Before you know it he said, ‘Sign these waivers.’ I’m like, ‘Waivers for what?’ And it had nothing on there about Trump.”

[...]

Likewise, Grethe Kiley said she was unaware that the film crew that set up outside John’s Friendly Market — her family’s business in nearby Haddon Heights, New Jersey — would be showing the store as part of the ad, with an unidentified model playing the part of a small business owner.

Since the ad debuted in Pennsylvania, Kiley said, longtime customers have threatened to stop shopping at John’s out of anger that it would be associated with the Republican presidential nominee.

posted by palindromic at 3:35 PM on September 8, 2016 [35 favorites]

TLDR: 60% of people dislike Hillary and she admits it's her fault !! Bad female, bad!

For what it's worth, I saw this earlier and found Clinton's explanation of the sexism she faced and the necessary reactions she's had to it really eloquent and touching, and it made me really empathize with her and feel impressed by what she's done. I think the headline is kind of a bait-and-switch.
posted by skewed at 3:36 PM on September 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

Yes. That's the real irony of it. She opened up, and still NPR turned it into cold, dislike, her fault.
posted by Dashy at 3:38 PM on September 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

There are only really two subjects where Trump comes across as deeply sincere and incapable of bullshit: his admiration for Putin and his regret at not being able to date Ivanka.

On the Putin thing more broadly: you can't get away with separating Putin's "strong leadership" from how Russia is run, even though Trump (and now Pence) seem to think they can. That's probably something to keep for the debates: is it the bellicosity and annexation or the gas pipeline extortion or the censorship or the tacit support for homophobic gang violence? Or something else, perhaps?
posted by holgate at 3:39 PM on September 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

From zachlipton's link

"This sort of an agreement would not be enforceable," says employment lawyer Davida Perry.

"There can't be a contract without consideration," she told NBC, "his campaign isn't giving the volunteer anything in exchange for their agreement to not speak about what they see or hear."

The basic notion of a campaign drafting contracts so it could sue volunteers for discussing the campaign, Perry added, was "outrageous" and "highly unusual for the political process."

An NDA for volunteers would be hard to enforce because they aren't getting anything "in return" from the campaign, says professor Samuel Estreicher, who directs the labor program at NYU Law School. Trump would also struggle to prove a legal injury caused by volunteers talking, he noted.

So they seem to be saying that if you are working for free, the NDA is not enforceable. That would also hold true for the people who were stiffed by the campaign.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:43 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

The Clinton campaign has started giving me the hard sell: "According to our records, it looks like you logged in recently to make some more calls, but didn’t complete them [...] You’re one of our best callers, so we need you to pick up the phone and make a few calls now"
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:45 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's some question as to whether the Trump NDA would be enforceable against volunteers without consideration, but if you find yourself in court paying lawyers to make that argument, you've already lost.

In general I agree but I suspect rather strongly that one would be able to find quite a good pro bono lawyer for such a case.
posted by Justinian at 3:47 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

zachlipton: "There's some question as to whether the Trump NDA would be enforceable against volunteers without consideration, but if you find yourself in court paying lawyers to make that argument, you've already lost.

Yeah, seriously. Although, I can imagine a scenario where ol' Donald believes that the sheer privilege of working for him is its own reward. Heck, maybe these volunteers should be paying him for the opportunity.
posted by mhum at 3:48 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fox News defends Clinton.

Apparently I woke up in Bizzaro World this morning. I checked Hell and it was still a balmy 64F/18C.
posted by Talez at 3:49 PM on September 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

So they seem to be saying that if you are working for free, the NDA is not enforceable. That would also hold true for the people who were stiffed by the campaign.

Not exactly--the working for free part just means there's no legally binding agreement in place, so Trump wouldn't have a basis on which to sue. If Trump hires someone for pay and gets an NDA, they have an agreement which is backed up by consideration and is therefore enforceable. Even if he stiffs them, the NDA would be potentially enforceable. The employee's recourse would be suing for wages, not getting to violate the NDA.
posted by skewed at 3:50 PM on September 8, 2016

Volunteering for Trump is the New Trump University!
posted by valkane at 3:50 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Pence: Putin ‘Stronger Leader’ for Russia Than Obama Is for U.S.

"I think it’s inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country."

So the whole ticket is fully in the Putin fan club. It is truly amazing the effect a black man can have on patriotism.
posted by chris24 at 3:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [42 favorites]

Bammas is a DC slang term meaning "rustic folks" which I was teasing the NC crowd with.

I grew up around DC and I can understand how you got that impression... but whatever "bama" means in your circle, it is also a word used by black people to mean, basically, a black version of a redneck. I'm neither black nor from Alabama, so I wouldn't use it except in extraordinarily specific circumstances. Beyoncé didn't use it in a "Formation" lyric because it was neutral. What I am saying is it totally looked to me like you were randomly slurring black North Carolinians. So, FYI.
posted by zennie at 3:54 PM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

538: The Swing States Are Tightening Too.

The "don't worry about the national polls tightening, the swing states are in the bag" thing never made much sense to me. If the national polls are tightening then the swing states would usually also be tightening since candidates tend not to pick up or lose a ton of support among narrow slices of the electorate to move national numbers.

Clinton's best hope to put Trump away is in the first debate. Lester Holt is kind of milquetoast but at least I don't think he'll be actively undermining Clinton like Lauer did. And Anderson Cooper may be a good moderator but I don't think the second debate will have nearly the impact of the first.

Kaine will, of course, demolish Pence who somehow manages to be both the embodiment of a banal empty suit and simultaneously homophobic and misogynistic bigotry. But VP debates don't usually move the needle much.

So two and a half weeks is the big day. I don't know what Clinton needs to do. If she's policy oriented the media will claim her style is wrong. If she's flashy they'll claim she wasn't substantive. If she smiles they'll claim she wasn't Presidential. If she doesn't smile they'll call her cold.

Meanwhile as long as Trump doesn't scream racial epithets they'll say he did okay.
posted by Justinian at 3:55 PM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Hillary Clinton Is a Flawed But Normal Politician. Why Can’t America See That?

One cause of Clinton’s reputation is the Democratic primary, which subjected her to an extended character indictment. Bernie Sanders has spent a career lacerating mainstream politics as grotesquely tilted toward the interests of the rich and powerful. To him, Clinton served primarily as a useful stand-in for the failings and compromises of a system he regards as rotten. But many voters who lack a deep familiarity with the assumptions and terminology Sanders uses may not have understand his criticism in this context. When he used terms like “corrupt” and “rigged” and “bought and paid for,” they understood these in a much sharper way. Younger voters, who did not form clear views of Clinton in the 1990s, were introduced to her as a literally criminal figure. Clinton is actually viewed less favorably by voters under 30 than the population as a whole — an astonishing data point in a country where young voters skew far more Democratic than their elders.

The article starts out with the emails and also brings up misogyny and the press doing a piss poor job of even-handedness.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:55 PM on September 8, 2016 [39 favorites]

Normally you would assume a big, burly man in a suit rushing to protect a presidential candidate was a Secret Service anger, but this guy is black.
posted by EarBucket at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

zennie, did you miss the article linked in the thread about the etymology and usage of bama? Per that article, it's not a slur and it's okay for white people to say.
posted by palomar at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Great. Pence is now saying "Inarguable that Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader" than Barack Obama."

I was going to say inarguable, my ass, but then I'm not completely sure how he defines "stronger leader." If you mean a killer who has no problem murdering his own countrymen in order to retain power-- then yes, Putin is stronger. But stronger in the way a loathsome, noxious odor is stronger.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

Right? Hot garbage juice has a stronger flavor than, say, bearnaise sauce. That doesn't make it better.
posted by stolyarova at 4:03 PM on September 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

I can't wait to see FOX and Friends talking about how great Putin is! What a terrific guy and so dreamy.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:05 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

You know who else was a stronger leader?

It's been a while, old friend. Welcome back.
.
posted by Devonian at 4:05 PM on September 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

I keep reading 'Pence' as 'Penance' and not feeling the difference.
posted by Mooski at 4:08 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, but they'll have to admit Putin isn't the strongest leader Russia has had. Stalin and Ivan the Terrible set examples he is struggling to come anywhere near...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hillary Clinton Is a Flawed But Normal Politician. Why Can’t America See That?

Because of people like you, Jon. One would have thought you might have gotten the message when Coates schooled you over The New Republic, but I guess not.

So sit the fuck down. This is your shit sandwich, and you're going to take a big bite with their rest of us.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

Per that article, it's not a slur and it's okay for white people to say.

I'm white, and pretty good with letting that term die a fast death with no further questions asked.
posted by Dashy at 4:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Garry Kasparov, chairman of the Human Rights Foundation (@kasparov63):

"Governor Pence, Vladimir Putin is a strong leader in the same way arsenic is a strong drink. Your country should be ashamed of you." [link]

"No sophistry. Calling a strongman like Putin "strong" is redundant, and so it is praise not for the individual but for dictatorship itself." [link]
posted by melissasaurus at 4:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [45 favorites]

So two and a half weeks is the big day. I don't know what Clinton needs to do. If she's policy oriented the media will claim her style is wrong. If she's flashy they'll claim she wasn't substantive. If she smiles they'll claim she wasn't Presidential. If she doesn't smile they'll call her cold.

There is no way for a woman in her position to win by media standards. None. Zero. Nada. This is a truth most women know: there is no acceptable, proper way for us to be. There is always something wrong with us. Always.

So some of us learn to just go, fuck it. I do what I want. I mean, it doesn't matter anyway, right? Someone's still going to find a way to shit on it, someone's still going to tell us we're not good enough. So we might as well do what we want so we're happy with ourselves.

When I contemplate the shit Hillary Clinton deals with, how often and how loudly people tell her she's wrong and not good enough, it makes me want to scream and cry in frustration. But I don't, because I see her enduring it with strength and dignity and still getting shit done. So what the fuck ever. We do the work. Someone's got to.
posted by yasaman at 4:12 PM on September 8, 2016 [114 favorites]

David Fahrenthold: This is the 5th time a charity told me they didn't get $ that @realDonaldTrump's Fdn told the IRS it had given them.

If you haven't been following along Fahrenthold works for the Washington Post.

Searching for evidence of Trump’s personal giving

The Washington Post has contacted more than 250 charities with some ties to the GOP nominee in an effort to find proof of the millions he has said he donated to them. We’ve mostly been unsuccessful.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:12 PM on September 8, 2016 [38 favorites]

Giuliani on Chris Matthews just confused Donald Trump with Ronald Reagan
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:12 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Shep Smith (w/video): Donald Trump said he was for the Iraq War, It is "insanity, and career suicide" to pretend otherwise.

I like when Shep lets out some of the outrage that must boil inside every day working at Fox.
posted by chris24 at 4:13 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well, as long as he's not a Communist, Conservative pundits and politicos terms to admire dictators and strongmen, and lament the weakness or democracy brings. Leftists tend to make excuses for authoritarians, Rightists swoon over them.
posted by happyroach at 4:14 PM on September 8, 2016

Chris Matthews is destroying Giuliani.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:17 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Matt Taibbi: The Unconquerable Trump: Seemingly imploding on the trail, Trump gains in a national poll. WTF, America?
posted by homunculus at 4:18 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Wow he cut the mic.
posted by Talez at 4:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

please share the manner in which Giuliani was destroyed
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:20 PM on September 8, 2016 [41 favorites]

If the national polls are tightening then the swing states would usually also be tightening since candidates tend not to pick up or lose a ton of support among narrow slices of the electorate to move national numbers.

True, but some of the field work on those most recent polls (esp. state polls) goes back to late August and early September, during the height of email/foundation bullshit. I'm going to wait to see polls where the field work began after Labor Day.
posted by holgate at 4:20 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's an example of why I will continue to maintain that Chris Matthews, while very imperfect, is on the side of the angels. He's an insider and a bit too cozy with other insiders. But his heart is in the right place.
posted by Justinian at 4:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm wondering how much money I could make selling t-shirts, hats, bumper stickers and signs saying "TRUMP/PUTIN" in the same format as the "TRUMP/PENCE" logo, maybe even with a "Make America & Russia Great" at the bottom... and how many would be sold to genuine Putin pals and how many to Donald's supporters who don't know Vlad ISN'T his running mate...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:25 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Leave out the "America &", I reckon.
posted by pompomtom at 4:27 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Chris Matthews is destroying Giuliani.

Is he destroy destroying him or merely internet destroying him?

(Please tell me it's the former!)
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:27 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wow he cut the mic.

Please proceed...
posted by Devonian at 4:30 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

MAKE AMERICA ALSO, AND RUSSIA GREAT
posted by Artw at 4:31 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Please please give more context when talking about things like Giuliani getting destroyed. A lot of us aren't able to watch, so the more details you are able to give the better.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 4:35 PM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

maybe even with a "Make America & Russia Great" at the bottom...

* -- not necessarily in that order
posted by Etrigan at 4:36 PM on September 8, 2016

Fox News defends Clinton.

Ailes has left the building.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:37 PM on September 8, 2016 [19 favorites]

He's an insider and a bit too cozy with other insiders. But his heart is in the right place.

Among northeastern Irish Catholic Boomers who got into politics, Matthews is in a more right place than Bill O'Reilly: yes, he's an insider, and can be clumsy when talking about women and minorities, but he retains the sense of politics as public service, the idealism and barrier-breaking associated with a photo of JFK going up on the family mantle in 1960. I'm sure this incarnation of Giuliani (which really isn't much different from pre-9/11 Giuliani) feels like a betrayal.
posted by holgate at 4:45 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

For a Northeastern Irish Catholic boomer who got into politics and doesn't give you that icky feeling, I submit Lawrence O'Donnell in the 10 PM MSNBC slot.
posted by zutalors! at 4:49 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

"mankind has always yearned to destroy the giuliani" - monty burns
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:49 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Imagine Trump's America | The Briefing
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:52 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

So Trump decided today was a good time to be interviewed by Larry King on Putin's propaganda network RT.

"The Republican candidate shrugged off speculation by that Russia may be trying to influence the 2016 US election.

“It’s probably unlikely,” he told King. “Maybe the Democrats are putting that out, who knows?”
posted by chris24 at 4:55 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Please please give more context when talking about things like Giuliani getting destroyed.

Didn't see the spot, but from Twitter it seems Matthews questioned Giuliani on Trump's birtherism and SickGhazi (or whatever we're calling it), and didn't just smile and nod at Giuliani's obvious lies. E.g., Giuliani said Trump now accepts that Pres. Obama was born in HI; Matthews said "You're wrong on that fact Mr. Mayor."

Haven't found examples of any further exchanges or video yet. But Sopan Deb is usually quick to post or retweet transcripts from the Trumposphere.
posted by melissasaurus at 4:59 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

For a Northeastern Irish Catholic boomer who got into politics and doesn't give you that icky feeling, I submit Lawrence O'Donnell in the 10 PM MSNBC slot.

I did not know he was nearly 65.

In other RT news, gurning shitweasel Nigel 'Flange' Farage is apparently in talks to be a roving correspondent for the election. That'll require a visa interview, which will be interesting.
posted by holgate at 4:59 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think MSNBC will be replaying Giuliani all night tbh.
posted by zutalors! at 5:00 PM on September 8, 2016

Josh Marshall: So This Is Actually Happening:

Nigel Farage, leader of the Brexit movement in the UK and formerly head of the far-right UK Independence Party (he retired after the Brexit win), is in talks with the Russian government owned RT news network to a be roving reporter covering Donald Trump's presidential campaign this fall.

posted by palindromic at 5:00 PM on September 8, 2016 [34 favorites]

I'm looking on twitter for the Matthews/Guiliani smackdown.

Philip Rucker: Fiery Chris Matthews & Rudy Giuliani exchange on birtherism. Giuliani claimed, without evidence, that Trump accepts Obama's Hawaii birth.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:01 PM on September 8, 2016

Globalization is awesome.
posted by valkane at 5:03 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fox News Defends Clinton

I like the article, don't get me wrong, and I double- and triple-checked the web address to be sure it wasn't some fake site. Still, I am a bit skeptical about this location for this piece. Without some prep work, Fox isn't all of a sudden going to turn over a mainstream media leaf and be believed. I would like to know if the author is an employee of Fox News (his little bio on the page seems to argue that he isn't). I would like to know if Fox News requested the article or if it was submitted to them. I would like to know if this is possibly an experiment of some kind by Fox News--perhaps they want to know what happens if a piece demanding fair treatment for both major candidates is published on their site.

It is a welcome thing, to be sure, even if it's the only fair thing that site ever publishes. It would be amusing if they were hacked to place the article and then all could return to normal in the media world. I would applaud if a real change of this nature happened as a result of Ailes leaving, but I would need to see more evidence of it.

Still, thanks for the comment, Talez. Kind of a really welcome piece for me.
posted by Silverstone at 5:06 PM on September 8, 2016

Wherein Wikileaks tweets evidence that Huma is in charge of Clinton's secret earpiece.

...Except the "proof" is an email from a state.goy address, not gov.
posted by chris24 at 5:07 PM on September 8, 2016 [25 favorites]

Matt Taibbi seems to have been watching Trump instead of the media coverage of the election. The media does one negative story on Trump and 40 on Clinton.
posted by humanfont at 5:09 PM on September 8, 2016

...Except the "proof" is an email from a state.goy address, not gov.

That's not the only thing wrong with the email address either...
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

That's not the only thing wrong with the email address either...

Yeah, I couldn't figure out quickly how to type the copyright sign.
posted by chris24 at 5:11 PM on September 8, 2016

IN PUTIN RUSSIA, NIGEL MAKE PLANS FOR TRUMP!

This is your moment, Yakov!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:11 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'd accept those as OCR errors, but more significantly, Clinton was at the UN that day, where earpieces are used to hear translations.
posted by zachlipton at 5:14 PM on September 8, 2016 [27 favorites]

Keith Boag, political reporter for CBC, just did a longform on piece on Trump and his supporters. He's kept in contact with one supporter for over a year, so there's a fair bit of insight into that mindset. It's mostly familiar ground, but an interesting read.

Make America White Again
posted by GhostintheMachine at 5:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Nigel Farage, leader of the Brexit movement in the UK and formerly head of the far-right UK Independence Party (he retired after the Brexit win), is in talks with the Russian government owned RT news network to a be roving reporter covering Donald Trump's presidential campaign this fall.

So, it looks like Russia's only been...

(sunglasses)

making plans for Nigel.

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
posted by nubs at 5:23 PM on September 8, 2016 [42 favorites]

That'll require a visa interview, which will be interesting.

Unless they've changed the I visa process since I was involved in getting myself and others onto that good ship via the London Embassy, it' really won't. The 'interview' was a five minute chat across a counter - in exchange for which you got what was basically a multi-year permission-to-stay-multiple-entry and work in the US on the proviso you didn't get paid by a US company or do non-jouro things. There was no 'single event' version: it was all or nothing, even if you were popping over to cover a two-hour launch as a freelance. But you had to have one for that - you couldn't do it on a waiver, and you couldn't do it on standard business.

The amount of bona fides you had to display was minimal, a standard form and some proof you were going to commit journalism. I wrote a covering letter for one freelance who was going over to spend three days in Palm Springs for a Lotus dev fest; it was practically his first journalistic assignment, and he wafted in and out of Grosvenor Square in a couple of hours.

I've seen colleagues turned back at the border for trying to cover a press event on a waiver: I never heard of anyone being denied an I visa - although some people who thought they wouldn't get one (minor stuff like a caution for a snifter of grass) didn't bother trying.

The I visa, once you grok it, is a wondrous thing.
posted by Devonian at 5:23 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Katy Tur has part of the transcript from Hardball. where Rudy is trying to claim that Trump accepted that Birtherism was nonsense "three, four, five years ago."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Devonian: I know you've been keeping that warm for me, and I am genuinely informed by it. I'd heard different things about the process, though most of it dated back to the mid-00s when journos without one were getting detained, and tech bloggers whose income came from ad revenue were having trouble establishing bona fides.
posted by holgate at 5:37 PM on September 8, 2016

Sopan Deb: Trump says that "the candidates should police themselves" re: debate fact checking to Larry King:

"I can tell you Chris Wallace is a professional. He's very, very good at what he does. And you know, I can understand him saying that, but yeah- I think, I think that the candidates should police themselves."

I'm sure that Trump would love to police himself in every aspect of his life: taxes, building regulations, visa requirements, banking regulations.

And from the same Russia Today interview we get more of this nonsense: Trump: "[Clinton] just doesn't feel presidential to me...She doesn't have what it takes."

I don't know, maybe she just isn't orange enough.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:42 PM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

I know how we feel about Joy, but I'm glad to see Chris Hayes back in his chair. He's getting in some good digs at anti-Clinton press -

"We all remember what a big story Colin Powell's emails were"

"Of course, what matters is the type of furniture Secretary Clinton speaks from" when defining press conference v gaggle.
posted by zutalors! at 5:56 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

And there's a nuclear test from North Korea, so let's see how the candidates respond to that.
posted by holgate at 5:59 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mark today as the day when I gained actual empathy for Clinton. Honestly, that story of her trying to get in to law school, and its aftermath, it really sounds like myself and some other women when we were in the military in earlier years and there weren't as many as now. We also had to be hard and uncompassionate during the course of our war. And I suppose Hillary's war has never been over.
posted by corb at 6:04 PM on September 8, 2016 [144 favorites]

And I suppose Hillary's war has never been over.

And it has been going on for about three decades. This is why millennials assume she's an all-but-convicted criminal.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:08 PM on September 8, 2016 [44 favorites]

I recently started rewatching The West Wing in order to get a little morality and idealism back into my life after being inundated by this tsunami of RealPolitik intermingled with grotesqueries. I recommend it as being rather soothing. Better still, I discovered a Podcast which is covering every episode on a weekly basis. They just finished episode 22 from the first season.

I'm also rewatching The West Wing, for the same reasons! I just started Season 7, so it's not as reassuring as it was early on.
And I love The West Wing Weekly! I actually started my rewatch after I began listening to it... and quickly got ahead of them. But Joshua Malina is always a delight.
posted by Superplin at 6:08 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

corb: there's now a second part to HRC's bit for 'Humans of New York' that talks about communication and perceptions of women, ending with this:

I’ve learned that I can’t be quite so passionate in my presentation. I love to wave my arms, but apparently that’s a little bit scary to people. And I can’t yell too much. It comes across as ‘too loud’ or ‘too shrill’ or ‘too this’ or ‘too that.’ Which is funny, because I’m always convinced that the people in the front row are loving it.

posted by holgate at 6:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [64 favorites]

I was so touched by the idea of HRC not wanting to mess up her LSAT test in that HONY anecdote. Partially because that moment was so hateful and emotional, and partially because I think she just has always had that ability to just power through the bullshit for what she believes is important.

And just the powerful nerdery of a young woman not wanting to "mess up her test"
posted by zutalors! at 6:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [37 favorites]

Glad you finally got there, corb.
posted by palomar at 6:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

I've been watching House of Cards lately and even that feels like a Nostalgic Remember Back When
posted by theodolite at 6:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

I just started reading The Innocent Have Nothing To Fear, a novel by Romney strategist Steve Stuart, and it is creepy as hell how on the nose it is about the GOP in this election. Extremely tight primary, brokered convention...
posted by palomar at 6:13 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've been for Hillary since before the convention, but the HONY segments are really freaking powerful. When Obama was the candidate, I thought to myself that it takes a black person running for President to make me realize how racist our society is. Now that there's a female candidate, I realize how misogynistic our society is. This is basically the definition of privilege, and I'm not exactly proud of myself for realizing this under the circumstances, because I thought I had a clue before.
posted by mollweide at 6:13 PM on September 8, 2016 [40 favorites]

That HONY post is huge. I've seen formerly reluctant Clinton supporters (mostly Sanders diehards, but not busters) share it. In this age of Facebook that was a great move. And it came across as completely authentic.
posted by defenestration at 6:15 PM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

Fucking Steve
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:16 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mark today as the day when I gained actual empathy for Clinton

I won't say me too, because there was recently a rather good drama on Radio 4 which portrayed some of what she'd been through (first ep has fallen off iPlayer, ep 2 is up for a couple more days, ep 3 is up for about a week) and that, combined with some of the deep history I've learned from these threads, has made me realise what she's been doing all these years and how fantastically hard it was.

And how easy it would have been to just walk away. She hasn't. And on reading some of the many leaked emails and other detritus from her life, things she said when she was just doing her job, I realised I knew that voice, I know that person, because I've met people like her from time to time IRL.

There may be better people than her for the job, but there won't be many.

I would work for her like a shot, not because she's Superwoman but because she knows the breaks and she really is the person she says she is.

The other guy - well, there may be worse people than him for the job, but there won't be many. He knows nothing, he is absolutely not the person he says he is, and I would rather starve in the gutter than have any dealings with him whatsoever - except, perhaps, in some law enforcement role.
posted by Devonian at 6:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

sigh. I meant Stuart Stevens. Did I say Steve Stuart? I blame the Coalition of Steves.
posted by palomar at 6:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

And there's a nuclear test from North Korea, so let's see how the candidates respond to that.

[FAKE]

TRUMP: "North Korea has a great leader, Kim Jong-Un, he leads better than Obama, I've met him before and he loves me. He loves Nuclear, I know all about, about Nuclear, I love Nuclear, they call me Mr. Nuclear, it's a powerful thing, like my campaign, everybody calls me powerful, I have strong, powerful hands, everybody says so, Hillary just doesn't have power, and this is why immigration is so important, I think we have to have a clear policy on immigration, I don't like birds, why do they just let birds fly everywhere? I think they, they have germs, there oughta be a, what, there are no jobs, we need to bring back the jobs. This building has steel-reinforced beams, did you see that? She's not presidential, am I right? BUILD THAT WALL! BUILD THAT WALL! What was the question again?"

CLINTON: "North Korea's latest irresponsible actions make it clear that the US needs to continue President Obama's strong stance on dangerous Nuclear developments from rogue nations and support UN actions. My website has a 16-page plan written by a team of Nuclear experts and foreign policy experts that I feel is the best way to make progress in controlling this danger."

MEDIA: "Clinton, Trump criticized for not having plan to deal with North Korea nuclear tests"

[/FAKE]
posted by mmoncur at 6:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I have still not caught up on these threads, but as your friendly neighborhood full-time volunteer, I thought maybe I should report back on some of the details of the on the ground experience. Especially considering that I share a certain amount of social anxiety with a lot of Mefites.

For instance, phones! Not as scary as I thought they would be. Ask me how bad I choked on the first couple of calls I made. It was bad. I almost cried. After that, it was a lot easier. This job has probably completely killed my phone anxiety. There will be people around who will hold your hand and reassure you. Doing voter registration? If you've ever worked a customer service job, you can do voter registration. Canvassing just started back up in my area, and going door to door is always an adventure. I've met incredible people and heard incredible stories doing this stuff, and you will too. And if these things are that far outside your comfort zone, we do need more data entry folks than you'd immediately think, and they are incredibly useful.

If you truly don't have the time, and if all of this is really that far outside of your comfort zone, I understand. I myself have done things over the last month that have been terrifying, on a social anxiety level. Large crowds are not my favorite thing, and I've dealt with that a couple of times.

If you can't volunteer, bring us stuff! My office in particular goes through an obscene amount of coffee, and I say that as a lifelong barista. And half and half. So much half and half. A local gourmet cupcake business brought us cupcakes one day and it made the entire week. Bottles of water, paper towels, snacks, cookies-- all stuff we love, and go through at a rapid clip. Check with your local office, see what they need.

My experience may not be typical. I happen to be in the best office in the country, which is totally completely objective scientific fact. [fake]

Seriously, though. I am so lucky, and so incredibly happy to be here. I am floored to come in to work every day, and in awe that I get to hang out with these people. My organizer? I would follow that dude into actual battle, and I'm pretty sure I'd walk through literal fire for any of my coworkers. I am so proud to be here, in this place, at this time. [real]

Go support your local office. You'll be glad you did. [also real]
posted by dogheart at 6:26 PM on September 8, 2016 [84 favorites]

[FAKE]
TRUMP: "North Korea has a great leader, Kim Jong-Un, he leads better than Obama

[REAL]

“You’ve got to give him credit," Mr Trump said. "How many young guys — he was like 26 or 25 when his father died — take over these tough generals, and all of a sudden — you know, it’s pretty amazing when you think of it. How does he do that?

"Even though it is a culture, and it’s a cultural thing, he goes in, he takes over, he’s the boss. It’s incredible.

"He wiped out the uncle, he wiped out this one, that one. This guy doesn’t play games and we can’t play games with him. Because he really does have missiles and he really does have nukes."

...

In August, he suggested Mr Kim might be a "genius" and called on South Korea to pay the US in exchange for the ongoing protection of its military allegiance.

posted by OnceUponATime at 6:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [21 favorites]

It would be an interesting tactic to question Trump as if he made a mistake, but it's cool!

Interviewer: So, man, that Khan thing, though, whooo! Tough! How would you handle that differently now?

We've all seen how much flack, you, DONALD TRUMP! get when you say some of the "less politically correct" things am I right? Hahahah! What do have to say to people who think you can get your point across better without that sort of thing?

I'm dreaming. Or drunk. This election has done me in.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:45 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

How does he do that?

It's called political terror and murder. Please don't try it, Mr Trump. Please.
posted by dis_integration at 6:47 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

That HONY post is huge.

I think so too. It was unexpected and candid and... reconfiguring, in a way, because it's very much a HONY story that happens to be about Hillary. I don't really do Facebook, but for people who spend a lot of time on it, HONY seems to have a big presence.

(I'd actually like HONY to do Trump as well, though that's not likely; I'd like to see what he'd say.)
posted by holgate at 6:48 PM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

In August, he suggested Mr Kim might be a "genius" and called on South Korea to pay the US in exchange for the ongoing protection of its military allegiance.

Maybe he could contract that to the Genovese crime family, too.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:48 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Excellent burn Sys Rq
posted by zutalors! at 6:51 PM on September 8, 2016

Debating Made E-Z for Hillary -- Just Do the Moderator's Job as Well as Your Own!

I'll leave it to you whether Matt Lauer's questioning of Trump qualifies as "aggressive." But please note: Clinton, according to Barro, should breeze through the debates if she challenges him (yes, her job) and corrects him (some responsibility for which should fall on the moderator). Piece of cake! [...]

Barro does introduce a note of caution:
When I tweeted that Wednesday's forum showed Clinton should be as aggressive as possible when debating Trump, my MSNBC colleague Irin Carmon responded that this is a risky strategy for a female candidate.
But then he throws caution to the winds, as men are wont to do in such discussions:
Ordinarily, I would say that's true. But Trump's response to Clinton's aggression is likely to be be so overaggressive and undirected as to make her focused aggression seem measured and presidential. Plus, aggression from Clinton will help to combat Trump's charges that she lacks the "strength and stamina" to be president.

No it won't. If Hillary Clinton reaches 3 or 4 on an aggression scale of 1 to 10, she'll be called shrill, hectoring, castrating, a witch, a bitch, a cu... well, I'm not going to go any further. By contrast, even if Trump gets to 9 or 10, whatever he says is just going to be called "tough talk" or "blistering rebuttals." And aggression on Clinton's part won't put the health questions to rest -- Trump and his surrogates will just start questioning her mental health ("Crooked Hillary seemed really unhinged last night"). Fox and Matt Drudge and Breitbart and Reince Priebus will be an amen chorus for that line of attack.

posted by tonycpsu at 7:04 PM on September 8, 2016 [26 favorites]

Yeah but we'd get to see her kick his ass properly, and they'll lie about it one way or another anyway.
posted by petebest at 7:08 PM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Data point: it's the first game of the NFL season tonight and Trump ads are running in Virginia every single commercial break. Zero Hilary ads. Maybe pulling out of Virginia was a little premature.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Inagine how Tom Daschle would stategize it, and do the opposite.
posted by petebest at 7:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Who will win Virginia 538 polls-only has HRC at 82%
posted by petebest at 7:13 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

why is david frum on msnbc rn? what is this world
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:13 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

“It’s probably unlikely,”

I am irrationally annoyed at this phrasing. I know, I know, word salad &tc., but it's

a) Probably untrue
b) Unlikely

Pick one! "Probably unlikely" is just a weasel way of saying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:18 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

(I'd actually like HONY to do Trump as well, though that's not likely; I'd like to see what he'd say.)

NYT: Humans of New York Founder Takes On Donald Trump

Spoiler: he hates Trump
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:18 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Data point: it's the first game of the NFL season tonight and Trump ads are running in Virginia every single commercial break. Zero Hilary ads. Maybe pulling out of Virginia was a little premature.

Michigan (Detroit media market): zero campaign ads, not even that one schmuck who's been running ads for his Congressional race since I shit you not January.
posted by Etrigan at 7:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't watch a whole lot of OTA TV but here in Pittsburgh I have managed to see several Hillary ads despite how little I have a TV on. Trump ads? 0. Nada. Zilch. Niente.

I have seen equal McGinty and Toomey ads. He's a complete shitbird, but he's not dumb and he knows how to run a campaign. (Both my husband and myself have gotten Toomey push polls recently.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:23 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

No it won't. If Hillary Clinton reaches 3 or 4 on an aggression scale of 1 to 10, she'll be called shrill, hectoring, castrating, a witch, a bitch, a cu... well, I'm not going to go any further.

If Hillary Clinton says "that's BS, Donald. You know it, I know it. Answer the question." then the chance of Trump calling Clinton an f-ing c-word on the debate stage rises rapidly. If she doesn't think she can say BS, then she can Biden it and say "malarky".

I honestly think that's necessary. The only way to deal with a bullshitter -- as Fareed Zakaria accurately noted -- is to say "that's bullshit."
posted by holgate at 7:27 PM on September 8, 2016 [34 favorites]

Data point: it's the first game of the NFL season tonight and Trump ads are running in Virginia every single commercial break.

Virginia or DC? There's a big VA ad spend this week, but the DC market is expensive, doesn't cover large areas of VA, and puts Trump on screen in Maryland where it's wasted cash. It might get into the heads of the DC press corpse, but that's different from saying that it'll make a difference in the state.
posted by holgate at 7:32 PM on September 8, 2016

The Clinton team also has internal polling. They're not constantly refreshing the Now Cast.
posted by zutalors! at 7:34 PM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Malarkey's taken. Bullshit is off limits. Baloney? Hooey?

"That's bologna, Donald. You know it, I know it, and most importantly, the voters know it."
posted by notyou at 7:36 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bullshit is off limits

If anyone in the Clinton camp is listening, bullshit should not be off limits. I think she could score a huge win by just saying on live tv at the first debate: "Donald, that is just bullshit. You know it and I know it."
posted by dis_integration at 7:38 PM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

The tone she'd have to use to throw an adequate amount of shade to get Trump to freak out while avoiding triggering the "hectoring, nagging harpy" reflex in all the male viewers would have to be calibrated down to the micron. There is no wiggle room there. Just like there's very little space for Obama to express anger adequate to get his point across without scaring all the white people away.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:40 PM on September 8, 2016 [41 favorites]

Good point. I'm writing in Gus Hall, as is tradition, but I'd reconsider if she went with "horseshit."
posted by notyou at 7:41 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Bullshit is off limits.

See, that's my quandary. Trump's is a transgressive campaign in so many ways, and while I like to think that Clinton's non-transgressive campaign is going to deliver the goods, the idiocy of mass political media has me worried that it's insufficient. So I think HRC needs to signal in some way that Trump's conducting a bullshit campaign made of bullshit, even if it means sending Chuckles the Toddler to the fainting couch.

"Bullsh--oh, I'm not meant to say that."
posted by holgate at 7:41 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think there's about a 95% chance he tells her to shut up, be quiet or shushes her. I think it's 50% he uses the word bitch, though probably as a verb for deniability. I think it's 100% his misogyny overwhelms any supposed shrillness on her part, at least for anyone who wasn't going to vote Trump regardless.
posted by chris24 at 7:47 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

She'll be called a bitch if she attacks him, and weak if she doesn't. There's no middle ground, no spot she can aim at for a win where she doesn't get called names, so she just has to pick one, and my hope is that she'll go for the attack.
posted by rifflesby at 7:48 PM on September 8, 2016 [15 favorites]

Virginia or DC?

NBC-4 Washington, maybe it is just for the insider beltway class.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:48 PM on September 8, 2016

She'll be called a bitch if she attacks him

She was never going to get the votes of these people.
posted by chris24 at 7:51 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

"Clinton looks weak next to Trump" is the headline Trump wants, the headline the Republicans want, and the headline the lazy media has already put on top of the first draft of the First Debate article they've already written.

So, yeah, she needs to call him out and be aggressive even though we all know the media will call her something vaguely equivalent to "unladylike" (and Trump fans will call her much worse things) afterward. It's better than the alternative.
posted by mmoncur at 7:52 PM on September 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

She was never going to get the votes of these people.

Exactly.
posted by rifflesby at 7:52 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I really don't think she's going to do anything out of character. She's been a pretty consistent figure on the international scene for almost 30 years. This is the biggest challenge of her life. She's not going to call him "Donny pants" just because everyone else is insane this cycle.
posted by zutalors! at 7:53 PM on September 8, 2016 [20 favorites]

Trump attacks U.S. foreign policy, political press corps on state-owned Russian television network
posted by Artw at 7:56 PM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think something along the lines of "I had a very similar discussion with my 6-year-old granddaughter yesterday. She just kept repeating the same thing, even though she didn't know what it really meant." might do well.

Also, could someone hurry and ask Donald Trump what he thinks about "Aleppo" before people forget that meme?
posted by mmoncur at 7:57 PM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

maybe it is just for the insider beltway class.

Clinton's blank in VA this week, Trump's going big (on NBC/NFL where the rates are high, I assume). But that chart doesn't say how much of that is DC (expensive market, poss. more wastage) vs wider. Maybe he still thinks he can sway voters from the factories and coal mines of Loudon County.
posted by holgate at 7:57 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

In my personal experience, there exist a certain number of macho types who respond positively to a "tough woman." Like, they probably won't ask you out (oh darn) but they might give you a beer (or buy you a shot of tequila if you tell them you don't need no wussy salt and lime with it.) It probably also depends on what the topic she calls him on is.

But whether the good ol' cowboys who appreciate straight shooting outweigh the out-and-out nazis, I have no idea.
posted by threeturtles at 7:59 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

We already know Trump is in Russia's pocket, it's actually Larry King I'm suprised by. A sniff of money and no spine will do it I guess.
posted by Artw at 8:01 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

Malarkey's taken. Bullshit is off limits. Baloney? Hooey?

A load of crap

"That's a load of crap, Donald"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:03 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Larry King was a highly paid milquetoast interviewer forever, and still appears on really sketchy TV ads. And works for Putin's Russia.

He's Trump's man.
posted by Yowser at 8:05 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Malarkey's taken. Bullshit is off limits. Baloney? Hooey?

Poor. "That's poor, Donald." Maybe it'll get under his skin.
posted by AndrewInDC at 8:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Or, "that might work on reality TV, but not in reality."
posted by Miko at 8:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [17 favorites]

T.D. Strange: "Data point: it's the first game of the NFL season tonight and Trump ads are running in Virginia every single commercial break. Zero Hilary ads. Maybe pulling out of Virginia was a little premature."

If you're concerned about the Clinton campaign's media strategy, you can maybe take a look at this Politico article (linked previously waaay upthread) about Clinton's chief data guy to soothe your worries. The anecdotes they cite are from the primaries but I think they're an instructive glimpse into the sophistication of their operation:

First, the campaign ranked every congressional district by the probability that campaigning there could “flip” a delegate into Clinton’s column. Because every district has a different number of delegates allocated proportionally (in Ohio, for instance, 12 districts had 4 delegates each while one had 17), this involved polling and modeling Clinton’s expected support level, gauging the persuadability of voters in a particular area and then seeing how close Clinton was to a threshold that would tip another delegate in her direction. (At the most basic level, for instance, districts with an even number of delegates, say 4, are far less favorable terrain, as she and Bernie Sanders were likely split them 2-2 unless one of them achieved 75 percent of the vote.)

[...]

The breakdown of the buy in Texas, powered by Kriegel’s modeling, shows how Clinton’s TV ads budget hunted for delegates, not votes. Texas is the rare state that used state legislative districts to award delegates, and Clinton spent $1.2 million on broadcast and cable ads even as she won the state by 32 percentage points. Sanders spent $0. She spent more on ads in tiny Brownsville ($127,000) and Waco ($142,000), ranked as the 86th and 87th largest media markets in the country, as she did in Houston ($105,000), the 10th largest, according to ad data provided by a media tracker.

It paid off: In Texas alone, Clinton netted 72 delegates more than Sanders — a margin that more than offset all the Sanders’ primary and caucus wins through March 1.

Remember how the scuttlebutt in 2008 was that Mark Penn, one of Clinton's main strategists, completely fucked up their primary campaign because he didn't understand that the Democratic primaries allocated delegates proportionally and not as winner-take-all? Yeah, she wasn't going to make that mistake twice. And yes, the general is different than the primaries but if this article is to be believed, I'm guessing that the fact that the Clinton campaign is skipping media buys in Virginia this week was the outcome of some pretty serious analysis. Of course, the analysis itself could be flawed but I also doubt if Trump's media buys were guided by anything much more than gut instincts.

Anyways, I find it kind of bonkers: a) how far the use of data analysis techniques in political campaign organizing has come in such a seemingly short time, and b) that basically all of these advancements have been on the Democratic side. I seem to recall that the Romney 2012 campaign made some initial forays into this area but I don't think they were that great. But, now with Donald's well-known disdain for data and anything analytical, I can't help but wonder if the Republican side is going to be at a disadvantage on the analytics front for the foreseeable future.
posted by mhum at 8:11 PM on September 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

Or, "that might work on reality TV, but not in reality."

She loves that kind of play on words.

"The man of hope and the man from Hope, Arkansas!"

"I want people to Pokemon GO to the polls!"
posted by zutalors! at 8:12 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

A load of crap

"That's a load of crap, Donald"\

If she did this I would find it very hard for me to not have her fall into 'I worship you now status'.

But that's just me being utterly biased because 'crap' is my go to word that I have been know to use in situations that need some blunt and somewhat crass speak to jar people out of whatever bubble they they think they're in. It can work quite well in my experience.

Plus there have been so many times that I've wanted to use it with some idiot (usually male) boss type or someone that it's just a better strategy to stay calm and civil.
posted by Jalliah at 8:12 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

"That really didn't sound very presidential, Donald."

Third-grade teacher voice for maximum effect.

Gesture typing suggested "Dimwit" instead of "Donald," I guess based on how I swiped the name, and I was so so tempted to let it stay
posted by seyirci at 8:14 PM on September 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

Probably the worst thing Hillary could do is lose her cool, play into her opponent's hand, and say something stupidly aggressive to him in front of a mainstream media eager for a moment of stupid, camera-friendly aggression. Obama's ice-cold "please proceed, governor" moment suggests a better way to deal with someone like Trump.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:16 PM on September 8, 2016 [24 favorites]

b) that basically all of these advancements have been on the Democratic side.

The big data investments and advancements on the GOP side have been in gerrymandering: Project REDMAP, aka politically-weaponised GIS, aka "target a few key state legislative districts in a census year and use the majority it grants you to redraw the map afterwards."
posted by holgate at 8:21 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

Brendan James at the Daily Dot: Anti-Trump Conservatives Keep Getting Trapped in Elevators

Follow-up: the newfound attention to the tweets in this story caused Amtrak to notice that Amanda Carpenter was stuck in an elevator back in February and to ask her, seven months later, if she was still in there. Apparently they noticed a retweet and failed to see the original date. It turns out that Cruz supporter and Never Trumper Amanda Carpenter has not, repeat not, been stuck in an Amtrak elevator for the past seven months.

As @OriginalYoni put it, "This may be the worst customer service response time ever."
posted by zachlipton at 8:25 PM on September 8, 2016 [40 favorites]

NBC-4 Washington, maybe it is just for the insider beltway class.

Nope. Trump is all in on ads in the Tidewater area too. The exact same commercial at every single commercial break. It is exhausting. Like being forced to watch Hulu with commercials again.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 8:34 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

NBC-4 Washington

Well, that sounds like good news, because I'm pretty sure NoVA's a waste of money. Partially because the eyeballs in DC and MD won't help him at all, and partially because it's seriously hard to believe the (establishment) Republican minority in the Beltway-area counties is swayable. They're most of them either complete party-line loyalists who were already going to vote for Trump because he has the (R) next to his name, or economic/big-business/military rather than culture-war Republicans who don't trust or like him at all and aren't about to start liking him no matter how much he's on TV.

Out of the DC 'burbs, there's more social conservatism and a precariat that can be drafted into being part of the culture war he's bearing a standard for, but in DC Metro, there's no votes to be picked up.
posted by jackbishop at 8:35 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Data point: it's the first game of the NFL season tonight and Trump ads are running in Virginia every single commercial break.

The Post has a brief about how the Republican-aligned super PACs aren't running any ads for him in Va, while they spent gobs of money on ads for Romney (remember all those Crossroads GPS ads?). It goes to show that Va is not in play and Trump's ad buy is either a foolish use of cash or desperation, plus how little support Trump is getting from the rest of the Republican establishment.
posted by peeedro at 8:43 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

And now, for no reason other than the obvious, we bring you a mid-thread musical break with R.E.M.'s Shiny Happy People.

Legend holds that the Orange Trumpies run at the sound of happy music. I can independently confirm this.

And Kate Pierson's harmonies and outro-Onos are a few of my favorite things
posted by petebest at 8:45 PM on September 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

And now, for no reason other than the obvious, we bring you a mid-thread musical break with R.E.M.'s Shiny Happy People.

Featuring Bill Berry's unibrow of impending doom? I think not, good sir.
posted by Talez at 8:51 PM on September 8, 2016

Malarkey's taken. Bullshit is off limits. Baloney? Hooey?

I vote for a combination eye roll/jerk off gesture whenever he's talking.
posted by bibliowench at 9:01 PM on September 8, 2016 [18 favorites]

I vote for a combination eye roll/jerk off gesture whenever he's talking.

How about the jerking off the imaginary cock on the forehead so not only is he a wanker but a dickhead too.
posted by Talez at 9:03 PM on September 8, 2016

Protip: don't put "jerking off imaginary cock on the forehead" into Google to try and find out what Urban Dictionary says it's named.
posted by Talez at 9:04 PM on September 8, 2016 [8 favorites]

What's the one Trump ad? Is it still just that cheapy bland one that looks like it was originally for an incumbent state senator?
posted by theodolite at 9:04 PM on September 8, 2016

Obama's ice-cold "please proceed, governor" moment suggests a better way to deal with someone like Trump.

Oh, no, she should walk over to his podium, gently tug at his hairpiece and sweetly ask ''So, what kind of gas are you huffing tonight, big fella ? Is that real hair or the ambassador from Proxima Centauri ? Well, here's a concept: start making sense, hmm ?'' And then throw a fierce haka staredown at the ambassador until it turns the color of bleached coral and slithers down his collar.
posted by y2karl at 9:06 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Oh Donald, you've failed to grasp the situation with those precious little hands of yours. "
posted by strange chain at 9:10 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

...when election threads veer into Hillary debate fanfic...
posted by Golem XIV at 9:14 PM on September 8, 2016 [32 favorites]

...when election threads veer into Hillary debate fanfic...

"Your coping mechanism for dealing with the fact that Donald Trump has a nonzero chance of becoming President is not my coping mechanism for dealing with the fact that Donald Trump has a nonzero chance of becoming President, but your coping mechanism for dealing with the fact that Donald Trump has a nonzero chance of becoming President is OK."
posted by tonycpsu at 9:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [43 favorites]

I really hope the overarching narrative of this election turns out to be 'the system works'.
posted by mazola at 9:19 PM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Protip: don't put "jerking off imaginary cock on the forehead" into Google to try and find out what Urban Dictionary says it's named.

Well?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:27 PM on September 8, 2016

$20M may not be Koch-level money, but it's hardly chump change: Moskovitz and Tuna donating to Hillary and Dem organizations
posted by strange chain at 9:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Knobhead is what you're looking for.

The review of the week should be that Trump's bullshit engine has moved up a gear as the campaign (im)proper begins. I have no idea that gear existed, and I have no idea where it'll be in a week.
posted by holgate at 9:35 PM on September 8, 2016

Commenting to say that I purchased HRC campaign buttons at the very beginning of August and they've arrived in the mail today!! Election 2016? Oh, it's on now... (☄ฺ◣д◢)☄ฺ
posted by one teak forest at 9:38 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

you can't get away with separating Putin's "strong leadership" from how Russia is run, even though Trump (and now Pence) seem to think they can. That's probably something to keep for the debates: is it the bellicosity and annexation or the gas pipeline extortion or the censorship or the tacit support for homophobic gang violence? Or something else, perhaps?

Putin is everything Trump dreams of being. The power. The control. The prepubescent machismo. The ability to silence anyone who speaks truth to power. The abandonment of term limits. The thrill of bullying and baiting entire countries. The satisfaction of taking what you want by force. The repleteness of existing on the inside and on top, of having all eyes on you, and all faces full of fear and love. Look at these two men plainly, and ask yourself if it's any surprise that Trump idolizes Putin.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:02 PM on September 8, 2016 [49 favorites]

What's bizarre also is how quickly Fox News embraced "traitor" Assange once he started leaking stuff about HRC.
posted by corb at 10:08 PM on September 8, 2016 [23 favorites]

Not terribly bizarre... at least, I'm not in the least bit surprised by this. Fox News is made up of opportunists who are largely devoid of any moral fibre.
posted by palomar at 10:11 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump attacks U.S. foreign policy, political press corps on state-owned Russian television network [real]
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:15 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

We've been getting the one Trump ad (Hillary is going to destroy the middle class, let terrorists in, and be totes the worst) constantly on Charlottesville TV all week (Central Virginia; a little liberal enclave in the midst of more rural, traditionally conservative counties and towns). Its a commercial so desultorily put together that I leap to mute it on the basis of its poor quality even faster than I leap to mute the insufferable Ting ads.

Oh, and Trump calls the house phone twice a day every day for 3 weeks now talking about how "Hillary is going to let all the violent --" (this is where I hang up, so I assume the rest of the sentence is "anteaters into your knitting shops, eating up the good yarn and tonguing the needles.")

Since we're only getting calls 2x a day, I assume he got his mailing list from the Tea Party (The State GOP will call once, the Tea Party calls twice with the same recording, AFP calls us 3 times with the same recording. You can not get them to stop calling, or at least only call you once not 3 times. The state Dems took us off their mailing list after 1 call and were really polite when we asked.)

The weird thing is that the number of praying-on-seniors scam phone calls has gone way the heck down since the Trump calls started.
posted by julen at 10:27 PM on September 8, 2016 [49 favorites]

(this is where I hang up, so I assume the rest of the sentence is "anteaters into your knitting shops, eating up the good yarn and tonguing the needles.")

and this is where I lost it and cackled so hard I actually became a cartoon witch. hag variety, not cute wiggly-nose variety. bless you.
posted by palomar at 10:32 PM on September 8, 2016 [28 favorites]

I think Clinton is better off doing an end-run around both Trump and the moderators during the debates and taking her case directly to the audience.

There's a scene in I Heart Huckabees in which Caterine Vauban provokes Albert's mother into a vulgar tirade, but instead of responding to it turns to Albert and says "Listen. Listen! This is your mother!"

"Listen. Listen! This man wants to be President!"
posted by um at 10:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

What's bizarre also is how quickly Fox News embraced "traitor" Assange once he started leaking stuff about HRC.

People stopped embracing him once their politics diverged. And vice versa. Same old story.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:35 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been addicted to these election threads and election news in general. I'm not sure what it is exactly. It might be how much is at stake. It might also be how much I like Hillary.

I've been discussing the election extensively with my mom, whom I visit every couple weeks and call occasionally. She's a strong-ass woman. She moved, with my aunt and grandparents, from hella-antisemitic Poland to New York in '63 when she was 17. She learned English, then started in college eventually finishing up with a PhD in Chemistry as the only woman in her class. She has always worked hard and is one of the smartest women I know.

It has been my observation that people who leave communist countries tend to lean Republican, and my mom fits that pattern. She voted for Bush, twice I think. She did not like Obama and still throws a lot of shade his way.

Yet it is incredibly frustrating that she is seriously on the fence thinking about voting for Trump. A lot of this can be explained by her media diet, which consists of our crappy local paper and a lot of cable news, especially Fox. Her attitude is thus: Clinton is a liar, is incredibly corrupt, and doesn't think the rules apply to her. Trump is a wildcard, and has said some good things. Maybe with him we'll get lucky.

I have been bombarding her with facts. She was unaware of the efforts at voter disenfranchisement going on in some states. She hadn't heard about Trump's Florida pay-for play, or how he seems to be making money off the campaign. She had no idea how poorly Trump is running his campaign. And -- this is a big one -- she didn't know about the level of antisemitism percolating through Trump's campaign. I email her many of the articles I discover in these threads. Then when I talk to her I refer to them. These links, especially when you guys post a few choice quotes, have been very helpful. She reads them. She listens to me. Sometimes she responds with her own articles.

The funny thing is, as much as she hates Hillary, Hillary really reminds me of my mom. Besides the hard work and intelligence, my mom is someone whose good intentions often come out the wrong way, usually as over-bearing. And maybe it was the years it took me to understand this in my mom that has allowed me to see through much of the cloud of media bullshit surrounding Hills and to just see her as the strong, intelligent, imperfect woman she is. My mom is really torn by the choice she has to make this election. I am very comfortable with mine.
posted by cman at 10:42 PM on September 8, 2016 [51 favorites]

What's bizarre also is how quickly Fox News embraced "traitor" Assange once he started leaking stuff about HRC.

My hypothesis is that his deal with Trump involves his being pardoned after Trump wins the presidency, and then being transported in some way to the US, with a Fox commentator position waiting for him.
posted by happyroach at 11:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

how can trump pardon assange? he's not an american citizen and the sexual assualt case he's hiding from in the embassy is in a Swedish court…
posted by murphy slaw at 12:00 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

how can trump pardon assange? he's not an american citizen and the sexual assualt case he's hiding from in the embassy is in a Swedish court…

You really think that would stop him?
posted by figurant at 12:02 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Assange has reportedly been secretly charged, although as I recall the US government refused to confirm or deny this. He could receive a pardon for those alleged crimes, and I suspect that the sexual assault case would then disappear pretty quickly.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:08 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, forgot to file my thread field report. I took a fairly significant drive through two counties in my area yesterday and was surprised to see Hillary yard signs. FOUR OF THEM. And zero Trump signs. In rural Texas, y'all.

(Ok, the Hillary signs were in an area pretty heavily African-American, but still. In other areas I saw other political signs, local stuff, but no Trump anywhere.)
posted by threeturtles at 3:39 AM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

On last night's Rachel Maddow show (alt links: show, story) she pointed out that although Trump keeps claiming that Putin considers him to be "brilliant": If he calls me "brilliant" I'll take the compliment at the CinC forum, for example.

Putin used the word "яркий" ("yarkii") which literally means "bright" or "shiny" but would mean something more along the lines of him being what we might call a "colorful character". The synonym that would evidently be used to convey that someone has a scintillating intellect is "блестящий" ("blestyashchii").

Maybe languagehat or someone else who speaks Russian fluently can comment in more detail.
posted by XMLicious at 3:55 AM on September 9, 2016 [44 favorites]

With that interpretation I'm imagining Putin calling Trump "brilliant" the way my Scottish husband uses the word. For example, if he were to see a dog take a shit and then wrap it's leash around their owner while the owner was trying to pick up the shit, my husband would respond, "Heh heh, brilliant". (although pronounced brill-yunt)
posted by like_neon at 4:08 AM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Here's another video discussing the translation issue from a YT account called Newsy^, which is evidently Scripps? Shows that by April Trump's version of this when addressing Fox News had become He called me a genius.

Evidently this is the original quote in Russian, from Interfax^ on December 17th 2015:

"Он яркий очень человек, талантливый, без всяких сомнений. Не наше дело определять его достоинства, это дело избирателей США, но он абсолютный лидер президентской гонки", - сказал Путин.

So if I'm getting it right in addition to яркий Putin did at least call him "талантливый" ("talantlivii", talented.) (Though the Newsy clip appears to dispute this.)
posted by XMLicious at 4:49 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that colourful is also a synonym.
posted by Yowser at 4:58 AM on September 9, 2016

Who was he supporting before? Bernie?
Did he explain why he was supporting her now?
posted by like_neon at 5:13 AM on September 9, 2016

I'm going out on a limb and guessing that colourful is also a synonym.

I was actually pursuing that hypothesis because I noticed that Wiktionary lists све́тлый ‎(svetlii) as a synonym for яркий, and I vaguely remembered that цвет (tsvet) is the word for color, but all of the Wiktionary entries beginning with свет... currently are only listing some variation of "bright" as a translation, so I wasn't quite confident enough.

Though, a second definition given for све́тлый is "jolly".
posted by XMLicious at 5:16 AM on September 9, 2016

So a friend of mine says that he's supporting Jill Stein now. He called me to tell me this last night and I was too tired to come up with a good argument for Clinton and I'm a terrible debater in general. Can you guys give me some good ammunition for talking him out of this?

A good argument for supporting Clinton? (And has he seen the HONY piece)? Or a good argument against Trump? Or a good one against Stein and her general incompetence, anti-science leanings, and inability to even have fun vandalising things? (Seriously, that video of her spraypainting is pathetic).
posted by Francis at 5:19 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is fun. Google image search for "яркий."

Ahaha - this is what this election feels like, a Google Deep Dream mix of normality with the technicolor grinning skull of Donnie.
posted by Devonian at 5:24 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Who calls someone up to tell them who they're voting for? Americans are weird.
posted by um at 5:27 AM on September 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

You: "Just to be clear, you're ok if we wind up with a racist, misogynist, and narcissist holding the nuclear codes?"

You forgot "cartoonishly incompetent". Some people might be okay with a terrible person if they were at least able to perform the job. Trump manifestly is not. See also: Richard Nixon.
posted by Justinian at 5:28 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald and vlad together the way Donald dreams about it... (fake)
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 5:33 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Heh.

@fmkaplan: Anyone who can be tricked by Larry King has no business being President.
posted by Artw at 5:44 AM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Who calls someone up to tell them who they're voting for? ~~Americans~~Educated white guys who think their opinions are super important are weird.

ftfy
(Sorry to impugn your friend thus, octothorpe but honestly, this is such a thing and I'm so over it.)

I'm glad that I a) don't have that many friends and b) the ones I do have (+family) don't have any electoral hot takes they feel the need to share with me because I am pretty sure I would end friendships over this nonsense.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:45 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Can you guys give me some good ammunition for talking him out of this?

"Congratulations on your white penis" and then ignore them.

I mean, who cares? Even if you're concerned about the race in PA, he's still just one stereotypically-dumbass white boy and even if you talk him down from this particular ledge he's just going to climb back out on it again when he decides he needs more attention. Fuck it. Even if you're worried about the race, you could take the time you would have spent talking down one dumbass white boy helping make sure 10 actually reliable non-dumbass people get to the polls or just donate a half-hour of work's worth of money to the campaign so they can put the effort where it's predicted to do the most good. Which ain't gonna be individually talking down dumbass white boys who've gone all squishy for Stein.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:58 AM on September 9, 2016 [36 favorites]

CNN:
Link "Trump defends military assault tweet" goes to "Trump praises Putin, pans US generals as Clinton pivots from email."

I get that Mr. Editor man thinks the alliteration is clever, but tagging "pivot" to Clinton brings us full circle on the false equivalency and CNN continues to destroy language and America from within.

Well, they're not helping, certainly.

"Trump gets sexist assist from Matt Lauer" is up there too, but that has its own problems. #LaueringtheBar
posted by petebest at 6:12 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

A small point in support of some white male Jill Stein fans, and then a counterpoint -

One of my dearest friends, one whom I trust more than any human on the planet and genuinely love like a brother, is probably voting for Jill Stein; not because he was a Bernie-or-Buster, however. But because he is an extreme Green Party guy, and has been in the entire 15-year span of our friendship. He is well aware of his privilege as a white man, he is the only guy I've ever spoken to about street harassment who actually empathized with me on the topic, he...gets it on every level. But he is very, very solidly Green Party, and always has been, and is going to vote for Jill Stein 'cos that's just how he's wired. So some of Jill Stein's constituency are indeed uber-hard-core Green Party faithful, and it may not always follow to draw any conclusions about their socio-political opinions on other topics based on their choice in this election.

My counterpoint, however - I have learned, from experience, that when he and I discuss politics, it really, really doesn't go well, as I am much more moderate and flexible than he, and he just plain isn't going to be argued out of his party loyalty. So when he does things like post "boo the two-party system" or "yay Jill" posts on Facebook I avoid them like a god-damn plague.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:15 AM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Re: the editorial on Fox News website way up thread.
If memory serves, website Fox is run by different people than TV Fox.
Ailes hasn't left the building until TV Fox says something nice about Clinton.

Re: Glenn Beck editorial way up thread.
It is difficult to give Beck any benefit of the doubt for that editorial when his byline is " author of How Progressives Are Destroying The Universe" (not actual title but very close.)
posted by wittgenstein at 6:38 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Sorry to impugn your friend thus, octothorpe but honestly, this is such a thing and I'm so over it.)

No problem. He's a good friend but drives me crazy at times.
posted by octothorpe at 6:40 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Josh MarshallVerified account
‏@joshtpm
Trump camp now says Larry King tricked them into appearing on Russian state own RT cable news network. Great job, guys.
posted by arm426 at 6:41 AM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Star Tribune: Minnesota DFL [Democratic-Farmer-Labor] asks state Supreme Court to order Trump, Pence removed from ballot

The party's petition asks that the secretary of state be forced to remove Trump and Pence from the ballot, saying the process that put them on it broke the law.

Also, previously (8/25), Republicans, Trump campaign try to tamp down Minnesota ballot panic, when it was discovered that Trump had been left off the ballot in the first place.

[fact]
posted by ZeusHumms at 6:41 AM on September 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

Piers Morgan must be pissed as hell that all this money is flying around for fawning interviews and he's not a part of it.
posted by Artw at 6:47 AM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I think there's a lot of value in discussing politics with people who disagree with you, as long as you don't expect to actually convince them. You don't have to be dismissive or insulting, you don't have to be some master of persuasion and feel like a failure if you don't convince them, and you don't have to carefully tiptoe around the subject of politics like it's too disgusting to bring up in polite company.

You can simply state your own opinions clearly and confidently, and respectfully disagree if they say something you think is untrue. You can walk away still friends, agreeing to disagree.

The truth is that no one conversation will ever change someone's position. People have too much pride for that, pretty much all of us. But the only thing that ever changes anyone's position is a steady drip drip of information eroding what they thought they knew, and then only if that information is coming from someone they know and trust.

Also, we are all influenced by our peers and friends, so just knowing he has a friend who is a Hillary supporter will exert a subtle pull on him in that direction, and will keep him from stereotyping all Hillary supporters as sell outs.

If you need some help coming up with the right words to say, to describe why you personally support Hillary (but he doesn't have to) here is a list of 112 reasons why Hillary Clinton should be our next president from the campaign. Maybe pick the two or three that speak to you the most and cite those.

And, of course, you could remind him that Donald Trump is the guy who said "You have to take our their families!" and defends the use of torture and just last night said "Take the oil!" And he is currently behind by only 2.8% in the Real Clear Politics polling average.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:47 AM on September 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

I would point out he doesn't just defend the use of torture. He's thrilled by it.
posted by argybarg at 6:49 AM on September 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

I am much more moderate and flexible than he

He may understand many aspects of privilege much more than your average guy, but an unwillingness to compromise and be flexible is absolutely an aspect of male privilege and kind of a hallmark of American masculinity. You don't need to be flexible when everything is going to go your way regardless. Women and people of color, on the other hand, have had to spend our entire lives compromising, trying to eke out the least bad outcome out of a menu of passable-to-terrible possibilities. Compromise is much less of a bad word when it's the thing keeping you alive.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:53 AM on September 9, 2016 [55 favorites]

Compromise is much less of a bad word when it's the thing keeping you alive.

It's also so, so much more difficult than simply deciding on a hard-line stance and declining to work with anyone who doesn't match whatever you decided. More often than not, compromise is how things get done.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:00 AM on September 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

@paulconstant: President Trump Claims He Was Tricked By Paul Manafort Into Selling Alaska to Russia
posted by Artw at 7:03 AM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

and this is where I lost it and cackled so hard I actually became a cartoon witch. hag variety, not cute wiggly-nose variety. bless you.

Palomar - in your honor.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:03 AM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

You forgot "cartoonishly incompetent". Some people might be okay with a terrible person if they were at least able to perform the job. Trump manifestly is not. See also: Richard Nixon.

That was basically Ted Cruz's argument this cycle: "Evil, but not Stupid."
posted by leotrotsky at 7:04 AM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sophie1, that is everything I didn't know I needed today. SO GOOD.
posted by palomar at 7:06 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

argybarg: "I would point out he doesn't just defend the use of torture. He's thrilled by it."

Oh, he hates Trump. He's just not convinced that voting for Stein is really a vote for Trump.
posted by octothorpe at 7:10 AM on September 9, 2016

Stupid typo. The line I was trying to quote is "You have to take out their families."

It was my "Surely this" moment, and it was December of last year, and I can't understand why it doesn't tower over every other "gaffe" he's made, honestly. All the stupid stuff and all the other horrible stuff... Why the whole campaign isn't about that one line. When I heard that line I thought "This guy is President Snow from the Hunger Games. This guy is evil."

So I don't know, maybe it doesn't give other people the chills as much as it does me, but that line would make me personally vote for ANYBODY ELSE to ensure Trump doesn't get into office. I really like Hillary Clinton, so there's no nose holding required for me to vote for her. But that quote was the reason I thought it was worth crossing party lines to vote for Marco Rubio in the primaries, and that involves a whole lot of nose holding. Because I didn't want Trump to get this close to the White House. Because he said "You've got to take out their families." He said we should aim missiles AT CHILDREN.

So to me that's the ultimate reason to vote for Clinton, whatever your reasons for disliking her, however much you have to hold your nose to do it. Even if she is too interventionist for you, which I can totally see, she does not say things like "Torture works. [...] But we should go much stronger than waterboarding," and "Take the oil" and for fuck's sake "You have to take out their families."

(shudder)

I feel like that argument ought to work on everyone, but apparently not..?
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:12 AM on September 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

Another veteran's perspective on Trump's Commander in Chief forum performance: Trump is a Goddamned Moron and Has No Honor:

He reminds me of that troop who somehow always talks the biggest shit, but is never around for the work details that make up most of a Soldier’s day, or keeps coming up on sick call at SP time. I wouldn’t trust him on shit-burning detail. He’d steal the JP-8 and the TP. He’s the guy who never does anything productive, whose gear is parade field clean, but lobbies for a combat award when an RPG hits the perimeter wall 600 meters away from him while he was in the line at Burger King. And you just know he’ll be telling stories about how terrible it was “in the shit” to the newbies. And he’ll strut around the mall on leave wearing those stupid T-shirts with skulls and M-4s and “MESS WITH THE BEST, DIE LIKE THE REST” on them.

Every Vet reading this knows the guy, or guys I’m talking about, and every Vet who watched that last night saw the same thing I did. I don’t know how much, if any, it changed anything, but if it did, it didn’t go Trump’s way. Another thing that I know struck people the wrong way was his sticky man-crush on Vladimir Putin.

posted by palindromic at 7:20 AM on September 9, 2016 [96 favorites]

Oh, he hates Trump. He's just not convinced that voting for Stein is really a vote for Trump.

Does he live here? Because, um.... I get that sometimes living in Pittsburgh you could get the impression that Democrat is default but drive a half hour in any direction and you'll see why PA is a battleground.

Anyway, speaking of Trump being evil and relishing torture.... How far away from being Robert Durst has Trump been at various points in his life? Over/under on literal skeletons in his closet?
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:23 AM on September 9, 2016

Oh my god, that article is SPOT FUCKING ON and HILARIOUS and I will be sharing it EVERYWHERE.
posted by corb at 7:23 AM on September 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

Hm, I'm not sure if the MN DFL's tactics are the wisest here. I understand their motivation -- and I'm sure they remember how Norm Coleman and the state GOP dragged out the election recount against Franken until the middle of 2009 -- but when Trump is running a ( projected) "Dems will steal the election!" line, it doesn't come across well.
posted by holgate at 7:25 AM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

I feel like that argument ought to work on everyone, but apparently not..?

I think it hasn't worked for the same reason there isn't more outrage over Trump's idea that the U.S. should just loot Iraq's oil. There's a significant amount of people that thinks you should take out their families and that the U.S. should be able to just take Iraq's oil to pay for the war.
posted by drezdn at 7:27 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Like the Brexit referendum in the UK it's basically become a poll on whether or not Americans are horrible people. It's going to be uncomfortably close.
posted by Artw at 7:30 AM on September 9, 2016 [39 favorites]

he...gets it on every level

I don't think he does get it, though. Or, let me take this out of the specific, because I don't know you or your friend. Maybe there are circumstances.

But in general, I think that any man who claims to care wildly about women and be conscious of his white male privilege -- yet chooses to cast a meaningless vanity vote instead of casting a vote that could make a difference against the woman-hating, Putin-loving, racist trash heap at the top of the Republican ticket -- does not actually give a fuck about women, and enjoys the hell out of his white male privilege.

Compassion is easy. Letting your ego take one for the team is hard. A vote for Stein or Johnson at this point says to me: "I'd rather let the world burn than work within the system to put out the fires."

That's not a worldview I can understand, let alone empathize with. Beating Trump has to be the first priority right now. The man is worse than just evil and stupid; it's clear, if you listen to the words he says, that as president he would be an existential threat. I agree that the environment is vitally important and we're not doing enough to heal the planet from the damage we've done; I just doubt very seriously that anyone will care once Trump nukes us all to cinders.

(That's also why all this email talk frustrates the hell out of me, btw. It's like standing on the lawn while your house is burning down, arguing about the color of the water buckets.)
posted by kythuen at 7:32 AM on September 9, 2016 [55 favorites]

"cartoonishly incompetent"

I'm really debating taking the day off work Monday and showing up at the Trump rally Monday dressed like a clown. At least now I have a slogan for my sign.
posted by achrise at 7:34 AM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

How far away from being Robert Durst has Trump been at various points in his life? Over/under on literal skeletons in his closet?

Naw, I don't think so at all. It's a different pathology. He's perfectly comfortable telling his supporters to beat up protestors or ordering his hypothetical armies to target families, of course, but it's delegation. Killing people is messy, and Trump hates a mess. I heard on Twitter that he put a handkerchief on the bannister when he used the stairs in a visit to a public school.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:35 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

At least now I have a slogan for my sign.

AMERICAN CLOWNS TELL TRUMP: QUIT STEALING MY ACT
posted by murphy slaw at 7:35 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Today:
Bill Clinton at Homewood Coliseum, PA, 11:45 EDT
Sen. Warren at University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology, 2:00 EDT
Tim Kaine at Old Dominion University, VA, 3:30 EDT
Trump at Omni Shoreham Hotel, DC, 3:30 EDT
Trump at Pensacola Bay Center, FL, 7:00 EDT
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:36 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah people voting Johnson or Stein are not getting it on most levels.
posted by zutalors! at 7:38 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

TBH going from domestic abuser and spousal rapist and managing to kind-of-sort of cover it up to murder and covering it up is a pretty big leap - bluster, intimidation and buying people off isn't going to work so well when there's an actual body.
posted by Artw at 7:38 AM on September 9, 2016

The Media Is Giving Hillary Clinton A Free Pass [not technically parody, but Reason]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:41 AM on September 9, 2016

I always find it kind of ironic that Reason is so... well, unreasonable.
posted by palomar at 7:46 AM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

There's a significant amount of people that thinks you should take out their families and that the U.S. should be able to just take Iraq's oil to pay for the war.

I feel like those people, if you pressed them, would say "Of course we shouldn't target children with missiles," and "Of course we're not marauders who invade other countries and steal their wealth." So there's some disconnect in their heads. I just wish I knew how to connect up those wires. How to make that light go on like "Oh, this is bad in the abstract, so maybe it is also bad in this specific case."

But so many people think that we're the Good Guys, and therefore whatever we do must be Good, by definition. It's like a flaw in our moral reasoning software, a bug, an infinite loop... "What is a good guy? Somone who does good things. What is a good thing? Something a good guy does. What is a good guy? ...."

I still don't think people who support Trump are necessarily evil (though I think he is.) I just think they're stuck in a while loop that makes them unable to recognize evil when it's coming from within their own tribe, "The Good Guys." We're all susceptible to that sometimes. Humans are just buggy that way.

I guess. That's the excuse I make for them, anyway. But I wish, I really wish I knew how to force them to exit that loop and see how evil the things Trump has said actually are. To see them the way they would if someone from outside the Republican party said them.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:46 AM on September 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

@RubenBolling

TRUE: On March 2, 2003, Donald Trump entered a cave in New Mexico and whispered "I'm against invading Iraq" to his dreamcatcher.

[Not true]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:49 AM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Leave the dumb Stein voters alone, no profit can come from wasting energy on them.
posted by Artw at 7:54 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Leave the dumb Stein voters alone

...but you repeat yourself.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:57 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well I think your time is way better spent getting 1 human being that you know personally to vote for HRC than posting 30k angry tweets to Matt Lauer but that's just me.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:57 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

But, oy, why not both?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:59 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Good god why is Trump speaking in DC? We only have 3 electoral votes and they are Clinton's most sure thing. I don't think any of the polls even bother with us.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:59 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Good god why is Trump speaking in DC?

He has a property there.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:00 AM on September 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

The NYT has the latest in the recurring series of "let's go to Kentucky and talk to Trump voters mad about coal and Obama".

At some point I'd like one of those pieces to do interviews with the young people who've moved away -- the ones who are gay, the ones who decided that good grades and going to college (in spite of loan burdens) offered more of a future than digging up coal, the ones who signed up for the military, the ones who just got on a fucking Greyhound and now wait tables in a slightly bigger city -- because that's the real unreported story here.
posted by holgate at 8:02 AM on September 9, 2016 [62 favorites]

Yes, I know, but he's not speaking at his property (I looked it up and it's a "values voters" summit, not a regular rally as I was thinking).
posted by everybody had matching towels at 8:04 AM on September 9, 2016

At some point I'd like one of those pieces to do interviews with the young people who've moved away -- the ones who are gay, the ones who decided that good grades and going to college (in spite of loan burdens) offered more of a future than digging up coal, the ones who signed up for the military, the ones who just got on a fucking Greyhound and now wait tables in a slightly bigger city -- because that's the real unreported story here.

But they're not 'working-class,' you see. Neither are the latino farm workers, the black city employees, and the native ranch hands.

No one is more parochial and myopic than a reporter from New York.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:04 AM on September 9, 2016 [40 favorites]

He has a property there.

At what point do you think the RNC will step in on the Trump campaign paying Trump for ballroom rentals?
posted by cmfletcher at 8:05 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

At what point do you think the RNC will step in on the Trump campaign paying Trump for ballroom rentals?

On the Tuesday after never.
posted by rp at 8:06 AM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Good god why is Trump speaking in DC?

"Value Voters Summit", so all the moralising evangelical hucksters who've gone all-in on Trump.
posted by holgate at 8:07 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

And then he's down to Mar-a-Lago for Friday night and some of the weekend, so that's going on the bill.
posted by holgate at 8:09 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Good god why is Trump speaking in DC?

It's the Values Voters Summit, here's there to pander to white evangelicals.
posted by peeedro at 8:11 AM on September 9, 2016

I'm sure the whole staff is staying at his DC property at top rates. He's got empty rooms to fill.
posted by readery at 8:11 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

His property at DC's Old Post Office Pavilion is not open yet.
posted by peeedro at 8:13 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

No one is more parochial and myopic than a reporter from New York.

I cringe every time I read a Times article about my city. They seem to regard anything west of the Hudson river as a mythical and mysterious land that only the most intrepid reporters will venture to.
posted by octothorpe at 8:13 AM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump pretending to give a shit about God and evangelicals pretending to believe him is at least good comedy.
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, like - honestly, Hillary Clinton being terrifyingly competent is not great for people like your Green friend or me. In my eyes, defeating Trump is paramount, but it's not like Clinton isn't going to use some of that terrifying competence to erode or destroy the things we love, so it's a really hard time. And she will, there's just no way around it.

But fate of the free world and all, so y'know, not electing Orange HitlerLite is kind of important.
posted by corb at 8:19 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who wore it better
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:26 AM on September 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

Well I think your time is way better spent getting 1 human being that you know personally to vote for HRC than posting 30k angry tweets to Matt Lauer but that's just me.

For those of us not in America? But are terrified you'll make an even worse choice than we did with Brexit? (I'm doing my campaigning on Quora at the moment - excellent for sharpening arguments).
posted by Francis at 8:28 AM on September 9, 2016

Who wore it better

Obama Koala: hey what's up guys how cool is it that I get to hang out with this obama dude

Putin Koala: OH GOD GET ME OUT OF HERE SOMEONE PLEASE HELP
posted by dersins at 8:30 AM on September 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

I cringe every time I read a Times article about my city. They seem to regard anything west of the Hudson river as a mythical and mysterious land that only the most intrepid reporters will venture to.

Then they'll write a story about how they found all the most Brooklyn-like pockets of whatever farflung locale they've ventured to. Look, everyone! We found hand-lettered signage in Pittsburgh, of all places! Phew, I guess that means it might be safe to go there.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:31 AM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Can you guys give me some good ammunition for talking him out of this?

Some great thoughts on this question already, but I wanted to add this: don't try to talk him out of this. The only person who will talk him out of this is himself. The most effective thing you can do is to simply ask questions until his reasoning, arguments, or comprehension runs out, hits a wall, gets tangled in a contradiction, or etc.

This is the only way to both avoid triggering any defensive reactions (indeed, any emotional reactions at all) and to preserve your own sanity. Consider yourself an anthropologist, assume your best Attenborough-tone internally: what a curious species, the nihilist-voter. What strange fancies motivate their words and actions? How have they convinced themselves that 'watch the world burn' is an acceptable course of action?

Before long, your friend will realize that he doesn't really have a clear, informed train of thought here, that he's reacting and speaking emotionally. I expect. Maybe this works well for me because I'm a teacher and I get a lot of practice. But I do know, at least in my experience, that it's far more effective to draw someone out until they see the flaws in their arguments, than to meet them in the arena of discourse as a challenger to their worldview or values or whatever.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:32 AM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

Then they'll write a story about how they found all the most Brooklyn-like pockets of whatever farflung locale they've ventured to.

When they come to Detroit, they always manage to interview the like three people who made the move from Brooklyn. Now that's Sunday Style section-worthy!

Style reporters and their ilk are why Midtown, Woodbridge and New Center rents have tripled in the past decade. God help us when they discover Hamtramck.
posted by palindromic at 8:37 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

I cringe every time I read a Times article about my city. They seem to regard anything west of the Hudson river as a mythical and mysterious land that only the most intrepid reporters will venture to

I've said it before, but the NYT has a bad habit of framing these kinds of stories as anthropology while pieces on obscure bits of NYC life (the wonder of apartments with washing machines!) are sociology: there are people, and then there are human animals.
posted by holgate at 8:37 AM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Leave the dumb Stein voters alone, no profit can come from wasting energy on them.

The Deeze Nutz voters on the other hand...well at least they're willing to share their nuts.
posted by happyroach at 8:38 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm very very tired of the armchair quarterbacking regarding Clinton's debate strategy.

The only way for her to "win" is for Trump to call her a bitch, to her face, in front of a national audience in which case the juicy juicy story for the media will finally be Trump's misogyny. Other than that? Nope. Too smart, too friendly, too aggressive, too passive, too frivolous, too serious, too emaily, too foundationy, too avoidant, too female. Pick one.

It makes me want to cry and scream but there it is. There is no magical strategy she can employ to win. It's all going to hinge on the media deciding Trump losing is the sexier story and that can only happen if he loses in some spectacular fashion.

So leave her be. She's prepared. It'll come down to a forced or unforced error on Trump's part. Hopefully he sets his own ass on fire and rids us of his malignant idiocy for good.
posted by lydhre at 8:40 AM on September 9, 2016 [54 favorites]

but it's not like Clinton isn't going to use some of that terrifying competence to erode or destroy the things we love

Can we please not do the vague fearmongering thing, please please please. PLEASE. If you have something to say about what you think she's going to do, BE SPECIFIC. You are NOT HELPING when you do this stuff.
posted by palomar at 8:45 AM on September 9, 2016 [44 favorites]

Garry Kasparov on Twitter:

Governor Pence, Vladimir Putin is a strong leader in the same way arsenic is a strong drink. Your country should be ashamed of you.

No sophistry. Calling a strongman like Putin "strong" is redundant, and so it is praise not for the individual but for dictatorship itself.

posted by palindromic at 8:51 AM on September 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

I vote for a combination eye roll/jerk off gesture whenever he's talking.

Which will instantly be called a medically disqualifying seizure by the completely-in-denial masturbatory press.
posted by srboisvert at 8:53 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Jennifer Rubin (!) in the the WaPo: Hillary Clinton is another Colin Powell victim

You now understand how Clinton could have understood that, generally speaking, Powell did what she did. “Not using systems that captured the data” could very well have sounded to a layperson like “not using a server that captured the data on the State Department’s system.” She, like Powell, used insecure systems in hotels. Nevertheless, Clinton was painted as a liar, and Powell even indignantly claimed at one point that the Clinton team was always trying to “pin” the email problem on him. ...

And James Comey, frankly, is partially to blame for making Clinton seem like an abject liar. He surely knew about the Powell-Clinton exchange, which is much more favorable to her than his sterile account and conclusion that Powell did not, in fact, do what she did. (He had no home server.) You also get a much better idea why she was not prosecuted; it was pretty darn close to what Powell did and, in any case, she relied in good faith on his advice.

posted by maudlin at 8:54 AM on September 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Couple comments removed; let's seriously not pivot over to another long go-around of examining corb's politics, from either direction.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:57 AM on September 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

On that Kentucky piece: the 1940 and 1944 electoral maps offer a useful comparison here. The bulk of states that turned against the New Deal and voted against FDR? Great Plains farm states. Dust Bowl states. People who stayed put, by choice or necessity. People who opposed federal resettlement schemes that sought to move farmers from depleted land to new planned communities.

As one of those linked articles says: "Plains residents may have been sympathetic that their lands had too many people to sustain current forms of agriculture, but they weren’t about to leave town to prove the theory."
posted by holgate at 8:59 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sam Wang: Find a competitive House race near you!:

Even if the House does not change control, a closer seat margin increases the ability of the minority to get legislation passed by peeling off votes from the majority. Under a Hillary Clinton Presidency, this will affect legislative priorities that cut across party lines, such as an increase in the minimum wage.

If you want to make a difference for your side, you can volunteer for a campaign in a contested district. In response to my wish, PEC reader Sharon Machlis has developed the Competitive Congressional District Finder, a cool application in which you type in your address or ZIP code, and get back a map showing competitive races near you, as identified by the Cook Political Report. Whether you support Democrats or Republicans, these are the races that matter. Give the app a try – and get out there!

posted by palindromic at 9:00 AM on September 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

Apparently there's no competitive house races within 100 miles of me.
posted by octothorpe at 9:04 AM on September 9, 2016

My very own district, NY 23, is listed as Lean Republican (R +3), with the execrable Tom Reed (incumbent R, one of the earliest Trump endorsers) being challenged by John Plumb.

Not much of a presence in town so far (but the town is solid blue anyway), and I'm really not sure what to do about it... The last Reed challenger broke my heart, too.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:06 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you have something to say about what you think she's going to do, BE SPECIFIC.

I try to speak in vague generalities about this stuff in part because of what's referenced in cortex's note above: as one of the few Republican-ish (even if the party has left me behind) people on Metafilter, talking about the specifics that are important to me runs the risk of derailing the entire conversation as people talk about those specifics. But if anyone is genuinely curious, I do always welcome memail - though sometimes I don't respond immediately, especially if I'm on mobile, I will always eventually get there.
posted by corb at 9:06 AM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

Apparently there's no competitive house races within 100 miles of me.

I went allll the way out to a 250 mile radius from my address. Nothing. No competitive House races in my state at all. Which seems... wrong.
posted by palomar at 9:08 AM on September 9, 2016

Jared Yates Sexton:
Something tells me if we gave Trump his own Cheers/Jeers column in TV Guide he'd just slink off into the sunset.

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Jeff Zucker failed @NBC and he is now failing @CNN.

posted by Atom Eyes at 9:10 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Actually, not even just my state. The 250 mile radius takes me as far south as Eugene, OR, and as far east as Coeur d'Alene, ID. Man. Nothing competitive at all? I guess we're all super entrenched in our bubbles out here?
posted by palomar at 9:13 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

My district race is competitive! Vote Josh Gottheimer for Congress in NJ's 5th district. I've been phone-banking at the local office once a week; I don't know if it's possible for people to phone bank remotely, but I can check in and report back.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:15 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I expanded the search radius to the max. Two districts in Michigan, one in Pennsylvania, and one in Virginia. Not a single competitive district in Ohio.
posted by Surely This at 9:17 AM on September 9, 2016

There are two competitive ones near me, one in New Jersey and one on Long Island. Very interesting.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:19 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been volunteering for LuAnn Bennett in Va's 10th, which is on the map as a competitive district. Phone banking tonight, voter registration Sunday.
posted by peeedro at 9:19 AM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Thanks for that link palindrome, I just donated some money to the competitive race in Virginia (other end of the state from me, but still). I know a House majority is out of reach for now but I'm cautiously optimistic for the Senate.
posted by DanSachs at 9:28 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Th

anks for volunteering!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:30 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Good god why is Trump speaking in DC?

He has a property there.

Yes, the Trump Hotel (featuring the Ivanka Spa) that's going to open in the DC Old Post Office, which hurts to type because that's a fine old building and deserves better.

Last week I had to drive through that intersection (12th and Pennsylvania) and was stopped at the red light right next to the construction-area fences covered with banners mentioning the word TRUMP prominently.

And I had a dystopic vision, sitting there in my car four scant blocks away from the White House. A vision wherein Trump wins, and he's the President, living in the White House.

And four blocks down the street, there's this luxurious commercial hotel that he owns privately and presumably profits from. Private commercial property bearing the President's name.

I found that I literally could not imagine "Obama Tower" or "Bush Tower" existing in that manner.

Is there a word that means "a complete, utter, and total lack of decorum and of respect for the dignity of the office?"
posted by seyirci at 9:31 AM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

Look on the bright side, once he loses, his luxury brand is in the toilet. Who wants to stay at the hotel of a loser? ::throws back head, evil laugh::
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:33 AM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Take the oil!
Kill their families!
Make America Grate!"

Its got a rhythm to it.
posted by petebest at 9:34 AM on September 9, 2016

Re: Jill Stein. If your friend is himself a Green, this article is pretty good:

Russian Greens slam Stein for cozying up to Putin: Your silence on his crimes ‘silences our struggle’
posted by msalt at 9:38 AM on September 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

“Jew lies matter”

ಠ_ಠ
posted by farlukar at 9:40 AM on September 9, 2016

"Take the oil!
Kill their families!
Make America Grate!"

Its got a rhythm to it.

I mean I read it in Zach De La Rocha's voice before you even got to the rhythm thing.
posted by cashman at 9:40 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

A reporter covering the “Values Voters Summit” where Trump is going to speak says it is pretty grim in there, and these are just the warmup acts:

“For real, @replouiegohmert said that as Christians, it's not right to mock people with special needs -- but Hillary Clinton has them. #VVS16

And this crowd of so-called Christians LAUGHED. LAUGHED. #VVS16

I refuse to quote @replouiegohmert further and be complicit in spreading his vitriol. #VVS16”

Then Kirk Cameron got up and talked about murdered babies. These are Trump's people.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:44 AM on September 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

"Take the oil!
Kill their families!
Make America Grate!"

Its got a rhythm to it.

It's like the Dead Kennedys all over again.
posted by davros42 at 9:45 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

RE: Stein voters... if they voted Green in 2012 and 2008 then there's not really any reason to be mad or argue with them. Plenty of logical, ethical explanations for why someone could never vote Democrat (radical pacifism, for one). But if they voted for Obama, and now are choosing to go further left, that is unconscionable, and almost certainly sexism.

My friend has been voting Straight Green On Everything since 2000. The worst argument we ever had came the day after Election Day 2008 when he was being a Debbie Downer about there not being much difference between Obama and McCain and my response was basically "CAN'T YOU GIVE IT A REST FOR EVEN JUST 24 HOURS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD". He is just super, super, super left and is not ever going to not vote Green, and there is no talking him out of it and that's just that. (I also am a bit puzzled how "sexism" would enter into it when we're talking about people who are voting for one woman instead of another one.)

It's sometimes been frustrating, but it's also probably less of a problem than the Jill Stein voters who are more dilletantes about it; the hard-core, stubborn-as-fuck, this-is-the-hill-I-die-on voters are actually the minority, I'd wager. Those of us who move around more are probably the majority, and it's us who make or break any election.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:46 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Look on the bright side, once he loses, his luxury brand is in the toilet.

Like I said upthread, I'm not quite so sure. (And it's barely a luxury brand.) I truly suspect that TrumpOrg could come down like a Jenga stack if one brick is tugged away -- and Trump knows it -- and that losing will paradoxically keep it afloat because it'll be harder to bring down the legal hammer without it seeming like partisan retribution.
posted by holgate at 9:47 AM on September 9, 2016

That Forvitz article. JFC. This is what I mean. The anti-Semites have, at least as long as I've been alive, crouching in their little hidey holes. They all do the salute when among friends in the woods, but they haven't been bold enough to come out on the streets and say it to our faces. This guy just came out of his hidey hole. He's still in PNW, but that certainly means there are more to follow. It also means more pepepeople and their ilk finding comfort in the community get to level up to participation IRL.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:50 AM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

“Jew lies matter”

I'm somewhat amused that he's trying to tie it into 'blue lives matter' and manages to reverse the 'thin blue line' colors.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:51 AM on September 9, 2016

I don't know that Trump will need any outside help for his empire to crumble. It's total anecdata but there is a Trump National Golf Course facility in Palos Verdes, CA and as part of the permit, they were required to provide public access to the beach. Of course, they did this in the most half-hearted, "oh, here's a parking lot, good luck finding it" way they could get away with, but they did it. The end result is that it's fairly easy to visit on a weekend and find yourself wandering back through the course to get down the cliffs and to the beach, only to see the place totally dead. A golf course in one of the most beautiful places in North America that should be packed, with exclusive hard to get tee times, and the parking lot is half-full and no one is milling around outside on a gorgeous southern California Saturday afternoon.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:52 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

This election is incredible to the constant sucking up to frankly incompetent strong-man leaders of other nations. Putin's governance has been for crap, and their economy is in the toilet, but I guess it doesn't matter because he, what, imprisons his political rivals? Murders journalists and poisons his enemies with polonium?

WTF america
posted by Existential Dread at 9:54 AM on September 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

Just to officially put this in the thread, even though there was a referenced tweet alluding to it, Episode 3 of Hillary's podcast recently came out.

Episode 3: “Let’s do that again”

Max catches up with Hillary post-rally in a band practice room to talk about the book she can’t put down, how she handles criticism, and the importance of friends on the campaign trail.

It's a nice 14 minutes. I love how she sounds on it. I love what she says about facing a bully, and specifically, Trump. I love what she says about her being able to take the barbs and jabs but she doesn't like it when he picks on others.

Or, you can just listen so you can hear her say "Okey-Dokey Artichokey!" and laugh.
posted by cashman at 10:01 AM on September 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Jesus, this election.
posted by Artw at 10:02 AM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

[Bill] Clinton: "Hey folks, I'm a white southerner, I know exactly what [Trump] means" when he pledges to make America great again.
posted by octothorpe at 10:02 AM on September 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

> I always find it kind of ironic that Reason is so... well, unreasonable.

The title is aspirational, like Men's Fitness.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:14 AM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

It's like the Dead Kennedys all over again.

Jello Biafra recently joined Napalm Death onstage to perform an updated version of "Nazi Punks, Fuck Off":

Biafra, who has performed the track with NAPALM DEATH several times in the past, explained to the audience that the song’s message has taken on a new meaning during the 2016 presidential election cycle.

He said: “Nowadays this song is about the Tea Party, modern kinds of white supremacists who leave the white hood in the top drawer and think a four-hundred-fifty-grand-a-year combover will paper over the fact that a fucking racist is still a fucking racist fucking asshole. So nowadays… And the only way to stop this guy… If you know anybody that says, ‘Yeah, I kind of like Trump,’ talk to ’em. Don’t argue — communicate as to why… It’s Trump as much as Trump-ism and making racism cool again that’s the problem. Right when black lives matter, this super-rich egomaniac says that brown lives don’t matter? I’m sorry. Nazi Trump, fuck off!”

posted by Atom Eyes at 10:15 AM on September 9, 2016 [46 favorites]

This guy just came out of his hidey hole. He's still in PNW, but that certainly means there are more to follow.

Nazis like the PNW, for some reason, and seem to be spreading out of Idaho and Eastern Washington and Oregon. We were driving back from Sequim a little while back and got passed around Silverdale by a pickup filled with angry-looking 20-somethings, flying a 10' Confederate flag from the bed. Probably just kids acting tough, but I have been seeing more (white) right-wing stickers on cars and trucks in and around the area. Perhaps there is some bitter benefit from right-wing Americans being more overt about their true goals, making it harder for the rest of us to look away.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:17 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fuck yeah, Napalm Death and Jello!
posted by Existential Dread at 10:18 AM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Webcast of "Values" Voter Summit for people that go want to watch these vile ghouls. Warning: First speaker is extolling the virtues of ~~lying to women with Christian propaganda~~ crisis pregnancy centers.
posted by Talez at 10:20 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Max catches up with Hillary post-rally in a band practice room to talk about the book she can’t put down, how she handles criticism, and the importance of friends on the campaign trail.

Spoiler alert (because I saw a tweet about it yesterday): she's reading Elena Ferrante's Neapolitan Novels and I'm DYING to know what she thinks of Nino.
posted by palomar at 10:22 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nazis like the PNW, for some reason, and seem to be spreading out of Idaho and Eastern Washington and Oregon.

This region is incredibly white. I grew up in Phoenix and LA, then moved to Seattle 12 years ago (age 29) and I still find it jarring how white this city is. Portland is whiter. And those are the major cities. The rural eastern sides of these states are whiter still.

Many of the people I know who've grown up here call eastern WA and Idaho "The land of pointy white hats." I don't find it odd that Nazis like it up here at all.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:23 AM on September 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Joy Ann Reid:

I imagine the old time American Communist Party is spinning in its collective grave with envy at what Trump is accomplishing.

Even Jill Stein, who's taken the socialist Green Party full Putinite, and the Putin-tilting Snowdenistas haven't been nearly as successful.

That said, for most Americans it's shocking to see an American presidential candidate openly touting authoritarian, communist Russia...

... and in the party of Reagan, no less. Just stunning.

Russia hasn't been communist since 1991 lol
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 10:24 AM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Nazis like the PNW, for some reason

Well, the state of Oregon was settled as a racist utopia. The state constitution specifically forbade the prescence of blacks.
posted by palomar at 10:25 AM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

"A true believer does what Jesus did".

So nobody at the conference would mind if I drove down to DC there with whips, flipped all the tables and drove all these fuckers out of the venue? This is such a warped vision of Christianity. So fucking warped.
posted by Talez at 10:25 AM on September 9, 2016 [34 favorites]

If a true believer does what Jesus did, then... the people attending that summit are not true believers. Everything they do goes against the teachings of their prophet.
posted by palomar at 10:27 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Last week I had to drive through that intersection (12th and Pennsylvania) and was stopped at the red light right next to the construction-area fences covered with banners mentioning the word TRUMP prominently.

I walk past that construction site every damn day and you never get used to it. Though the placement is sort of hilarious: right between the EPA and the IRS.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:27 AM on September 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

It all comes down to whether you think the socialism was the problem or the being-awful-murderers was the problem.
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Nazis like the PNW, for some reason

The reason
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:28 AM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Well, the state of Oregon was settled as a racist utopia. The state constitution specifically forbade the prescence of blacks.

The Black Laws of Oregon, 1844-1857

Beginning with the Exclusion Law of 1844 enacted by the provisional government of the region, Oregon passed a series of measures designed to ban African American settlement in the territory...

The first exclusion law was passed in 1844 by the Provisional Government of Oregon, the temporary governing political structure set up by the first American settlers to reach the region over the Oregon Trail. This first law included a ban on slavery and a requirement that slaveowners free their slaves. African Americans who remained in Oregon after their freedom was granted, however, would be whip-lashed and expelled. If they were caught again in the Territory within six months, the punishment would be repeated.

posted by Atom Eyes at 10:29 AM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

So nobody at the conference would mind if I drove down to DC there with whips, flipped all the tables and drove all these fuckers out of the venue?

Meet up?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:30 AM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

Why does MSNBC need to be live at this Values Voter thing? Hello media you are the problem.
posted by zutalors! at 10:40 AM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

the state of Oregon was settled as a racist utopia. The state constitution specifically forbade the presence of blacks.

As I've said before, one of the ironies of the PNW is that a relatively transparent and forward-thinking civic culture and approach to elections (compared to the old Confederacy) happens when white political leaders don't feel threatened by black votes.
posted by holgate at 10:41 AM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

Why does MSNBC need to be live at this Values Voter thing? Hello media you are the problem.

Pence and Trump are both speaking. Until they are thrown into the media blackout oubliette where they belong, the cameras are going to follow them around.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:44 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Pence and Trump are both speaking

Yes, I understand that, I wasn't literally unsure about the media overkill wrt Trump campaign.

At this point it seems like they want him to win. Why I don't know.
posted by zutalors! at 10:48 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Aaand now I've spent half an hour wondering how to organize a whip-toting venue-cleansing phalanx (pocket snakes in front and bullwhips in back?)

This election...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:58 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Presumably they feel like it's the job of a news network to cover one of the two major candidates for president?

Haha, zing! They always seem to be live on scene, hours ahead for any Trump event, with several talking heads, but they have a camera at a Clinton thing. And they talk to a bunch of Trump surrogates about how he could improve his campaign.

But you know, I'm probably just not understanding how media should work.
posted by zutalors! at 11:00 AM on September 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

We've hit a new milestone in the tale of Trump's thin skin:

Do we really want a President who can't handle criticism to the point he blocked a cat on Twitter? --@Bitchesthecat
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:01 AM on September 9, 2016 [36 favorites]

I say we try the oubliette thing. Just see how it goes for ten weeks, then re-evaluate.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 11:01 AM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

From the Air Force One on 9/11 post up now, Andy Card: "When you pick a president, you want to pick a president who can handle the unexpected."

Trump can't handle the unexpected.
posted by notsnot at 11:06 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I say we try the oubliette thing. Just see how it goes for ten weeks, then re-evaluate.

I thought the point of an oubliette (at least from an etymological standpoint) was that you didn't have to go back to check on people you put in there, strictly speaking.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:11 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Aaand now I've spent half an hour wondering how to organize a whip-toting venue-cleansing phalanx (pocket snakes in front and bullwhips in back?)

Particle beam on the wrist watch; snake holder on the leg.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:12 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Atlantic: The Right's Putin Derangement Syndrome
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:15 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Do we really want a President who can't handle criticism to the point he blocked a cat on Twitter?

"donald trump looks like the villain in a movie where the hero is a ~~dog~~ cat"
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:15 AM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

> the placement is sort of hilarious: right between the EPA and the IRS.

Given that Trump has been caught bribing judges and would surely engage in pay-for-play, in combination with his other troubles as as real-estate developer and tax problems as a millionaire, I don't find that placement funny at all.
posted by fragmede at 11:18 AM on September 9, 2016

I thought the point of an oubliette (at least from an etymological standpoint) was that you didn't have to go back to check on people you put in there, strictly speaking.

Shhhhh.
posted by Artw at 11:18 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

For your election year pleasure, please enjoy this astonishingly unfortunate photo of Donald Trump and Bill Clinton
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:38 AM on September 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Oh fuck you Bachman. That money was stolen from Iran, by your buddies. Giving it back is the only decent thing to do.
posted by Yowser at 11:43 AM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

unfortunate photo of Donald Trump and Bill Clinton

This changes everything.
posted by monospace at 11:44 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

That hat.

I'll never trust anyone in a red hat again.
posted by Yowser at 11:47 AM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

His property at DC's Old Post Office Pavilion is not open yet.

That's a matter of hours now, actually. There's an event in there next week that I am aware of, though I think that's happening - because of a rescheduling - a few days before the first guests are going to be staying in it. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's already space set up for Trump when he wants to stay there.

So I would wager $1 that he'll stay there while in town for the summit and that he'll effectively be the first paying guest. With RNC money, of course.
posted by phearlez at 11:47 AM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

he hates Trump. He's just not convinced that voting for Stein is really a vote for Trump.
posted by octothorpe at 7:10 AM on September 9 [+] [!]

A bit late to the party, but one avenue of getting through to your friend is pointing out to him the mathematical reasons why third parties are unviable in the US political system. People like to point out that Europe has lots of parties, why can't we? Well the reason is that all the systems with many political parties are parlimentary systems, which allow for multiple parties, but in the US system they can only function as spoilers because of structural constraints. These same constraints mean that voting for a third party as opposed to the major-party candidate who most matches your views is, in effect, giving a vote to the major party candidate who least represents your views.
posted by zug at 11:49 AM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I walk past that construction site every damn day and you never get used to it. Though the placement is sort of hilarious: right between the EPA and the IRS

Fun fact: the current EPA building used to be a Post Office building. You can still find busts of old post master generals inside.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 11:51 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump is the Witchmaster General?
posted by Yowser at 11:53 AM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's taking advantage of English adjective/noun placement to appear more important. The converse is "Special Agent" which really means "Limited Agent" but sounds better.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:56 AM on September 9, 2016

So I would wager $1 that he'll stay there while in town for the summit and that he'll effectively be the first paying guest.

You would lose $1 since he's holding a rally in Pensacola Fl tonight.

I knew the Trump hotel was close to opening, so I had to look it up. The funny thing is that articles from 2012 were saying opening late 2016. Then there was an article from a few months ago with a quote from Trump saying "Opening soon, two years ahead of schedule, isn't that great?!" It's mendacity all the way down.
posted by peeedro at 11:56 AM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

15 Years of Donald Trump’s 9/11 Lies, Insults, and Slights

The New Yorker has a huge history of indifference and contempt for the darkest day in his city’s history.

Six months after Donald Trump claimed to have lost “hundreds of friends” in the 9/11 attacks, his campaign continues to ignore a request from The Daily Beast that he name even one.[...]

“If he has hundreds of friends, he should be able to tell us about them,” remarked a Port Authority police officer who has felt a duty to learn as much as he can about as many of the victims as possible. “If he can tell us about the hundreds of friends he lost, who they were, what kind of (people) they were, I might have some respect for him.”

The only time anybody can remember Trump being down at the September 11 Memorial and Museum was this April, when he made what seemed more like a campaign stop. Those who escorted him noted that he did not seem to pay particular attention to any of the names around the memorial pools or pictures of the victims displayed in the museum. His own math would say that at least a tenth of these people were his friends.

He did give the museum a $100,000 donation but it was from the Trump foundation which he no longer contributes to, so not his personal money.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:58 AM on September 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump Charity Gave $100,000 to David Bossie’s Citizens United that Helped Fund Lawsuit Against Mogul’s Foe

What a coincidence - it's just been revealed that the year after NY Attorney General Eric Schneiderman brought a suit against Trump University, the tax-exempt Donald J. Trump Foundation gave its biggest-ever donation to Citizens United, which was filing lawsuit against Schneiderman over his efforts to require nonprofit groups to reveal their donors' identities. Whether or not this was political payback or at least misuse of a charitable organization, the lawsuit was dismissed last month.

The attorney general's spokesman didn't hold back when this story broke: "Funding a meritless lawsuit against this office would be nothing new for someone like Donald Trump, who has filed baseless ethics complaints, planted bogus stories, and tweeted a steady stream of incoherent insults just to make himself feel better for being exposed as the fraud he clearly is."
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:00 PM on September 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Bill Weld (Gary Johnson's running mate) being interviewed on MSNBC a few minutes ago talked about how it's "really difficult for politicians" when genocide is happening somewhere in the world because they're made to feel like they might be responsible for doing something to stop it.

Thought experiment: Imagine how the Great Depression and/or/especially WWII would have gone with Johnson/Weld in charge.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:02 PM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

You'd think Values voters would be above voting for someone as morally bankrupt as Trump. Gary Johnson is polling well, vote for him.
posted by Yowser at 12:03 PM on September 9, 2016

[Fake]
Hillary’s First 100 Days
By David Mandel, with and assist from the "Veep" writing staff

Hillary Clinton took the oath of office as the 45th president of the United States on Friday, Jan. 20, 2017, after defeating the thousandaire Donald J. Trump in the previous November’s election. Since F.D.R., the first 100 days have come to be seen as the defining moment of each presidency and are used to measure each new president’s accomplishments. Below are the highlights of President Clinton’s first 100 days as recorded near the end of her second term, in 2024, by her official biographer, and recovered from a deleted email in 2025.

Equal-opportunity snark.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sopan Deb: Conway says to CNN that Trump believes Obama was born in the U.S., even though Trump himself has never said so.

Conway is the second or third Trump surrogate to claim this. So he is using his surrogates to put that about but he himself will never say it. I guess because he doesn't want to admit he was wrong all this time.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:04 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thought experiment: Imagine how the Great Depression and/or/especially WWII would have gone with Johnson/Weld in charge.

</The Man in the High Castle pun>
posted by XMLicious at 12:08 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Six months after Donald Trump claimed to have lost “hundreds of friends” in the 9/11 attacks

He meant dollars from depressed economic outcomes. Trump doesn't have friends other than money. [And make your own joke thusly about having fewer friends than he claims]
posted by phearlez at 12:09 PM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Aug 2016 Vanity Fair: Donald Trump Was Reportedly Desperate to Attend Chelsea Clinton’s Wedding. Wedding was in 2010. Didn't get invited, couldn't barge in, couldn't trick his way in.

Wondering if it would be a small factor in whatever motivates him.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:12 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Don't bring our Guiliani
posted by Yowser at 12:13 PM on September 9, 2016

There are probably enough Trump lies, falsehoods, fabrications and dishonesties on the record and on the Internet to fill a medium-sized book, one sentence per. Hell, those 3500 court cases at twenty words each is a 70,000 word slim novel. Make a great present for all the family!

Wish I'd thought of that six months ago.
posted by Devonian at 12:13 PM on September 9, 2016

You did it, you bastards. You really did it.
posted by Yowser at 12:14 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I guess because he doesn't want to admit he was wrong all this time.

I don't think it's want. I honestly don't think he has the capacity. I'm sure there's a sequence in a film or sitcom -- not 'Argument Clinic', I'm thinking of something else -- where someone is incapable of admitting he's been caught a bare-faced lie but is quite happy to say he's done and believes terrible things instead.
posted by holgate at 12:15 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

You did it, you bastards. You really did it.

If this fool Trump actually gets elected, I will probably end up reenacting that scene in my living room.
posted by cashman at 12:15 PM on September 9, 2016

It's come to the point that whenever I see the name"Mar-a-lago", my brain mentally replaces it with Snake Oil Island.
posted by Servo5678 at 12:16 PM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

WaPo: Trump’s nonstop lies are only getting more brazen. Here’s why it works for him.

All of this has stirred a new set of concerns about whether the press is even institutionally capable of dealing with the depth, breadth and audacity of the Trump campaign’s lying, and whether this institutional failure could end up allowing Trump to win the presidency in spite of it. For instance, Paul Krugman suggests that holding Trump accountable is especially challenging because “journalists are overwhelmed by the sheer volume of outrageous material.”

I’d go further: Trump and his campaign mostly don’t even deign to engage with the basic institutional role that the news media is supposed to play in our democracy. It isn’t just that Trump lies far more often and more audaciously than Clinton does, though that is the case. It’s also that Clinton’s team regularly responds to fact-checking inquiries, while Trump’s team rarely if ever does the same, even as Trump just goes on repeating the same debunked lies with ever more resolve. In other words, the Clinton campaign mostly recognizes, however grudgingly, that it should at least try to back up her claims amid a dialog of sorts with the news media. Trump’s does not. Clinton’s relationship with the media is deeply flawed: She is overly paranoid about their intentions; she refused to hold pressers for far too long; and yes, she lies, as most politicians do. But Clinton recognizes that the press has a legitimate institutional role to play, while Trump has a fundamental level of contempt for that role. Conway’s above refusal to even engage with the basic facts — something she is very good at, to be sure — neatly captures this.

This is what makes the Trump campaign by turns horrifying and fascinating-- he breaks all the rules. He doesn't bother having any policies. He doesn't bother too much with raising money or running ads. He doesn't have a ground game. He lies constantly while claiming everyone else is a liar. He doesn't memorize facts or bother with learning basic history. He doesn't even seem to bother learning what the being POTUS entails. He makes little attempt to reach out to non-Trump fans. He hardly bothers to campaign in battleground states. He never apologizes, never explains. He says whatever he feels like saying. He makes no attempt to be pleasant or palatable. If he wins, politics will never be the same.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:25 PM on September 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

Equal-opportunity snark.

It would be funny to see Republicans run out of special prosecutors.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:29 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bill Weld (Gary Johnson's running mate) being interviewed on MSNBC a few minutes ago talked about how it's "really difficult for politicians" when genocide is happening somewhere in the world because they're made to feel like they might be responsible for doing something to stop it.

He should take a page from Johnson and just forget that the rest of the world exists. No more genocide, at least outside our borders. What happens in Aleppo stays in Aleppo. What's Aleppo, anyway?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:32 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

and yes, she lies, as most politicians do.

She's the most truthful pol in the race, but the truth is still getting its boots on.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:33 PM on September 9, 2016 [30 favorites]

lol you can't just not perfunctorily acknowledge that Hillary Clinton is a lying lie-liar who lies, people might think you like her
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:35 PM on September 9, 2016 [34 favorites]

Ali Vitali: So...Trump's gonna be on Dr. Oz on Thursday.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:41 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, she does lie sometimes; every politician is going to be less honest than you'd prefer from, say, your own significant other. But compared to other politicians, especially other presidential candidates, she's as honest as a.....very....honest person? (Who's a synonym for honesty in popular culture that's not a president? Because I feel like that would be a bad simile in this context.)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:44 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cool, two shysters in one hour of television!
posted by palomar at 12:44 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

So...Trump's gonna be on Dr. Oz on Thursday.

The 'waiting your turn in the dentists' office' demographic.

FFS, he's going to talk about Sick Crooked Hillary and how green tea supplements keep his dictator strong.
posted by holgate at 12:48 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Daniel Dale: Hello from the Values Voter Summit, where Reince Priebus just called Trump a "champion for traditional values."

Traditional Values like adultery, lying, stealing, cheating, and stomping on the faces of the poor. Those are the cherished traditional values of white men in power in this country, right?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:49 PM on September 9, 2016 [38 favorites]

Great, Trump's going to say "Do I look OK to you?" and Dr. Oz is going to say "Yes" and this will be what Trump responds with the next 100 times anyone asks for his medical records.
posted by mmoncur at 12:49 PM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

I've been pretty good about focusing on reality and the present, but a fantastic (as in fantasy) idea just occurred to me. What we really need is someone at the IRS with nothing to lose, say, terminal cancer, for instance, to release his tax records for the world to see. I think it it his one greatest Achilles heel.
posted by Sophie1 at 12:51 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

(I also am a bit puzzled how "sexism" would enter into it when we're talking about people who are voting for one woman instead of another one.)

The gender of the candidates is irrelevant. A choice doesn't have to be "man instead of woman" to be a sexist choice.

Hillary Clinton could be Bob Smith, and I'd still look side-eyed at anyone who told me "I'm ultra-concerned about women's issues, but I'm going to vote for Stein this year because of whateverthehell."

Trump has said, and then publicly confirmed his belief, that women who work around a lot of men should just generally expect to get raped. This, in addition to all the vicious, gendered name-calling and abuse he has hurled at any female journalist who dares to question him. You know how we don't read the comments on articles about women in the public arena? Guys like Donald Trump are the reason we don't read the comments.

So - say it's a given that women and women's rights would suffer under a President Trump. That means somebody not Trump needs to win. That leaves us with one candidate who has no chance of beating Trump, another candidate who has a fair chance at beating Trump... and then Trump himself. Personally, if a hypothetical voter is willing to support the candidate with no chance in hell of beating Trump, I can't put much stock in his/her concern about women.

In this country, voting for a third party candidate isn't about getting that candidate into office. There is no chance the Jill Steins or Gary Johnsons of the world will ever sit in the Oval Office. It's mathematically impossible. A vote for a third party candidate is about saying "This person's views on X align with mine, and even though there is no chance she can win, I wish her views were better represented in mainstream politics."

And that is fine, for most elections. It's fine for elections where the two major party candidates differ on things like economics or policy or methodology. It is NOT fine for elections where the two major party candidates differ on whether vast swaths of the country's citizenship deserve basic human rights.

When there's an actual bad guy in the race, a guy who brags about what a bad guy he is, a guy who supports actualfax villainy? A vote for that third party candidate is a vote that says "I don't care if the bad guy wins." And the hypothetical voter who doesn't care if Trump wins is not a voter who prioritizes women* having a safe and sane country to live in after January 2017.

* or people who aren't straight, white and Christian. You can say the same about any of the groups Trump has publicly stated he wants to disenfranchise and/or deport.
posted by kythuen at 12:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [53 favorites]

She's the most truthful pol in the race, but the truth is still getting its boots on.

OPEN LETTER TO THE TRUTH

Dear The Truth,

Please lace up the damn things already and get out here. We need you.

Signed,

Everyone

PS. No, it's really seriously bad. Please help
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:54 PM on September 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

More from the Values Voters Summit:

Donald Trump: "I'm quite sophisticated."

Donald Trump: "Our faith in God" is what will bring the divided country back together.

Donald Trump gets a partial standing O for vowing to protect "Christian heritage" "like you've never seen before."

Donald Trump: "Politicians have abandoned" traditional Christians.

Donald Trump: I think Christianity isn't exploding "like a rocket ship," like my poll numbers, because the law muzzles churches.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump currently talking to Evangelical (?) Christian group. Says will repeal Johnson Amendment, to allow churches support/denounce politicians from the pulpit while keeping tax exemption.
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 12:55 PM on September 9, 2016

(sry & thx, SLG. Hurried to post with only a cursory review of the recent thread posts, missing yours)
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 12:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

How is his envisioned future different from what the Taliban wanted?

He's white.
posted by melissasaurus at 12:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Always be on guard for that creeping Maria law.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:58 PM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Fuck right off Donald, you lying shitfaced hypocrite. You don't give a fuck about my religion. I would much prefer that you mock us rather than pretend to be one of us and get your shit all over what is already a rather fucked up institution.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:00 PM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

Here's the thing about fact-checking Trump: you don't have to correct everything he says, because half the time he says something in the worst way possible to get more publicity, and the other half of the time his stance and statements will change, so it's hard to say what he really believes or intends to do.

But if you do want to fact-check him, and you should, I suggest starting by time-and-date-stamping all his comments, then string a few together to call out his internal conflicts. Then shoot down some really ugly lies and a few questionable truths, to show how much he lies, in scales both big and small. And allocate 1/10th of the fact-checking time you spend on Donald to Hillary, so you're not giving her a free pass.

Then remember that people are so willing to brush off is lies as simply wild statements, meant to get attention, that fact-checkers aren't really appreciated or sought out by many news consumers.

Trump hasn't changed the political landscape, he's just a narcissistic whose playing the major media/political game to the fullest, consequences be damned. Not everyone can do that, in part because if they lose, they'll actually face consequences, like not getting a decent job later.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:02 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump: "Our faith in God" is what will bring the divided country back together.

One nation, under that shiny, white Christian god. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others need not apply.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

That's OK, filthy. We won't pass the Ideological Certification process.
posted by Devonian at 1:05 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

>How is his envisioned future different from what the Taliban wanted?

He's white.

Ironically, so are the Taliban (Burton passed as Afghan when he did the Hajj). They're actually more inclusive than Trump.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:05 PM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

(I also am a bit puzzled how "sexism" would enter into it when we're talking about people who are voting for one woman instead of another one.)

I'll add that voting for a woman who does not have a single solitary prayer of winning is qualitatively different from voting for a woman who could, you know, be President. A woman who has been under subtly and not so subtly misogynist attack for decades in a way that has pervaded the culture to such a high degree that even guys who think they aren't sexist will say without a shred of self-awareness that she sounds "shrill" and they just don't like how bad she wants to be President. Misogyny isn't a binary where you only have, on the one hand, MRAs and on the other totally 100% Platonic ideal nonsexist dudes. You can be completely okay with a theoretical woman President but somehow mysteriously not quite okay with the woman who could actually be President.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:11 PM on September 9, 2016 [54 favorites]

(sry & thx, SLG. Hurried to post with only a cursory review of the recent thread posts, missing yours)

No problem at all-- I did the same thing myself yesterday. Read 350 comments and then posted before previewing the last 3 comments. It happens in long ass threads. Now I am off to the gym and then to phone bank. Catch up later doods!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:18 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Did he just say Clinton bleached the emails into an unheard of salad?
posted by Yowser at 1:19 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I also am a bit puzzled how "sexism" would enter into it when we're talking about people who are voting for one woman instead of another one.

People who don't trust Clinton but love Joe Biden are, without even knowing it, showing their sexism. The fact that they would vote for Jill Stein as a protest vote against Clinton because of said dislike does not erase the fact that their central dislike of Clinton is unlikely to have much to do with her actual record.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:21 PM on September 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

Can someone please explain the Trump and Larry King kerfuffle? I have read this, which I thought explained it, but I don't understand the connection to RT. Like, is the PoliticKING a show that's on the network, Morning Joe or whatever?
posted by Tevin at 1:34 PM on September 9, 2016

Tangential politics update: House "Freedom Caucus" member Rep. John Fleming plans to force a vote [autoplay vid warning] next week to impeach IRS commissioner Koskinen (file resolution Tues, vote on Thurs). They allege he destroyed evidence tied to the IRS's supposed targeting of conservative 501(c)(4) orgs. Note that Koskinen was not the commissioner when the "scandal" happened. Trump supporter Paul Ryan wanted to delay the vote until House Republicans could meet next week to discuss, but Fleming isn't having any of that. Senate unlikely to take any action. Some rumors that the Freedom Caucus may try to force a gov't shutdown over it. [extensive coverage of the "scandal" from Tax Prof Blog]

I hope the media spins this as the partisan BS that it is (and with Trump's returns under audit, it's such an easy spin to do!), but I'm sure Chuck Todd is gonna Chuck Todd.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:37 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

One nation, under that shiny, white Christian god. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and others need not apply.

Sorry, the preferred term is miscellaneous.
posted by phunniemee at 1:39 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have read this, which I thought explained it, but I don't understand the connection to RT. Like, is the PoliticKING a show that's on the network, Morning Joe or whatever?

the upshot is that King's production company makes clear that Trump was always booked for “PoliticKING with Larry King", the video show that appears on RT (the Russian state owned news channel formerly known as Russia Today.)

Emphasis added.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:39 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

How long do audits take, anyway?
posted by waitingtoderail at 1:39 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

For your election year pleasure, please enjoy this astonishingly unfortunate photo of Donald Trump and Bill Clinton

fap fap fap
clever bit of cropping, that
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:42 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

OK then so Larry King has a show that runs on a foreign propaganda network and this is the first I've heard of it, and, Trump expects anyone to believe that nobody would notice or point this out even if it was on a podcast?

Why am I surprised by anything?
posted by Tevin at 1:42 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why am I surprised by anything?

It's Trump's Razors all the way down.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:46 PM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

I mean, she does lie sometimes; every politician is going to be less honest than you'd prefer from, say, your own significant other.

Everyone lies. A friend of mine who is a behavioral economist turned me onto the work of Dan Ariely, a professor of psychology and behavioral economics who studies the phenomenon. After looking at his work and watching the documentary about it, I came away realizing that it was ridiculous for me to demand superhuman levels of honesty from politicians. All I can do is measure the frequency and relative damage of the lies and determine how meaningful it is to my evaluation of a candidate. Trump's lying is especially irritating because many of his lies are easily disproven with video and audio evidence and he refuses to accept reality. I find that much more dangerous than running a private e-mail server.
posted by xyzzy at 1:48 PM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Everyone lies.

Trump vexes me.
posted by zachlipton at 1:52 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't know if anyone is still watching this Voters Values thing, but my jaw is on the floor. These are not ethical people.
posted by Yowser at 1:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

which in a roundabout way explains their love for Trump, I guess.
posted by Yowser at 1:58 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Begun this clown war has: early voting started today in North Carolina.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:59 PM on September 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

> It's Trump's Razors all the way down.

Sweeney Trump? (Bonus: We already know Depp can pull off Trump for the film adaptation.)
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 1:59 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

OK then so Larry King has a show that runs on a foreign propaganda network and this is the first I've heard of it, and, Trump expects anyone to believe that nobody would notice or point this out even if it was on a podcast?

The know-it-all got tricked by Larry King?

I'm not sure that's the better option here.
posted by Talez at 2:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I came away realizing that it was ridiculous for me to demand superhuman levels of honesty from politicians.

I've kind of independently come to this conclusion. I work an internal-customer-facing role and, yo, I lie. I lie because honestly no one actually wants to know how this sausage is made, I lie because people higher up the food chain have made it clear that our customers need to be satisfied and sometimes that satisfaction is greased by some gentle fibbing. My lies are inconsequential for the most part, and a lot of them are of omission rather than commission, and are sometimes of the very common "yes of course we're very concerned about this issue [no actually you're just being a pain in the ass and no one cares about this really]" sort. People who say they never lie? Are lying. Occasionally you get someone like my husband who can be honest to a fault, to the extent where he causes himself real anxiety over the little lies that happen every day, but he still lies. He just feels super bad about and I have to pat him on the head and tell him that seriously, it's not a big deal. Because damn, people lie. The best we can hope is that the lies are mostly social lubricant and done with good intentions to make good things happen or keep bad things from happening.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:04 PM on September 9, 2016 [28 favorites]

Trump's lying is especially irritating because many of his lies are easily disproven with video and audio evidence and he refuses to accept reality.

Yes. It's his blatant disregard for reality that's (part of) what makes him so horrible more than the bare lying -- he just doesn't give a fuck about the basic shared framework for understanding reality that we actually need to have to survive as a species.

At some fundamental level Trump is an egoist in the philosophical sense of the word. He doesn't believe that anyone or anything outside of himself has existence. He is God -- he speaks, and it is so.

And I guess this is part of my horror as a religious person at his disgusting co-option of Christianity. Not just the surface idiocy of rejecting our tradition's core principle that the love of God is at work, healing the world, and that we are invited to participate in that holy work: but that theologically, we are committed to believing that we are not the center of the universe. From an orthodox perspective, Trumpism is damnable idolatry in multiple ways. And yet, most white American Christians are going to dutifully pull the lever for him in fifty-nine days.

It's all too much.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:06 PM on September 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

People who don't trust Clinton but love Joe Biden are, without even knowing it, showing their sexism. The fact that they would vote for Jill Stein as a protest vote against Clinton because of said dislike does not erase the fact that their central dislike of Clinton is unlikely to have much to do with her actual record.

And my point is that there are people who are voting for Jill Stein because they sincerely and truly prefer Jill Stein.

I mean, I think they're a little nuts, but at least it's not the misogynist pig-dog kind of nuts is all.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:12 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Slate now has a handy poll aggregator aggregator that is now calling it as 77% for Clinton.
posted by octothorpe at 2:17 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Random observations from around and about New Mexico:

I haven't seen any political signs, but I haven't strayed too far from a rather limited path.
* But if I head down I-25 before the election (or after), I'll see if the proud teabagger who doesn't understand the role of government (freedom or collectivism is not the choice) has a new sign up
* In Santa Fe, a sticker on a car that reads "IN GOD WE TRUST | our national motto," which is apparently part of the one million window campaign

"Are you ok with being told you can’t talk about God? There’s no need to be quiet any longer. “In God We Trust” is more than just our national motto – it’s our country’s foundation and part of our identity as Americans." To which I want to shout YOU HAVE NO SENSE OF HISTORY (reminder: the motto was adopted in 1956, when we elevated it from a slogan on our coins because we wanted to show everyone we were different from those dirty, atheist reds)

* a young African American girl with a "Future President" t-shirt, who I wanted to give a high-five and say "yes, yes you are," but I didn't know her, so I went about my day
posted by filthy light thief at 2:19 PM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

HRC speaking now after a security briefing. her demeanor is calm, sober, confident. she referred to trump as "the republican nominee" as she blaseted his reckless approach to foreign affairs.
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:22 PM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

tivalasvegas: At some fundamental level Trump is an egoist in the philosophical sense of the word. He doesn't believe that anyone or anything outside of himself has existence. He is God -- he speaks, and it is so.

It's worse than that - it's a very time-specific belief. Anything he said now is real, while the past is a myth, of which we tell stories. You have a recording of him saying he supported something he now rejects? So what, that was the past, and that's not really real. The man before you says this thing, and this thing is his truth.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:22 PM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

OHenryPacey: HRC speaking now after a security briefing. her demeanor is calm, sober, confident. she referred to trump as "the republican nominee" as she blaseted his reckless approach to foreign affairs.

Maybe if we all refer to him as "the republican nominee," the GOP can do a person swap thing, and we will all pretend we can't tell the difference. Heck, toss in that Cruz fellow. "Yeah, the republican nominee isn't very consistent, is he? Remember when he was all about building some wall, but he hasn't mentioned it for a few weeks? I still don't like his stance on reproductive rights, but at least he has dropped that ugly white-nationalism."
posted by filthy light thief at 2:28 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

a new set of concerns about whether the press is even institutionally capable of dealing with the depth, breadth and audacity of the Trump campaign’s lying

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnooope.

I guess the good news is they're going down with us.

Seriously, start the engine.
posted by petebest at 2:32 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

For all those folks that think Stein voters are a lost cause here's an update on me and octothorpe's friend. He and I had a chat. I told him that if he voted for the flaky magic pixy dream girl over the hard-working earnest, brilliant nerd girl he would be breaking my I-can-only-aspire-to-be-half-the-nerd-she-is nerd-girl heart. Plus, our kid and his kid, who are about the same age, would lose their health insurance. And if my Dad, in California, who usually writes in Bloomberg for presidential elections, can vote for Hillary in CA even though he actively loathed her when he was in the military when her husband was in office then, he (our friend) can vote for her in PA where it actually matters even if she is "boring"! He said "yes of course, Hillary is the only logical choice" and I think I've talked him into to volunteering for the campaign with me. So....who knows.. maybe he was just having a bad night or something. I'm guessing octothorpe's logic got to him, and he just needed me to give him the excuse to change his mind. So basically don't write off your Stein voting friends but find someone who can will help you gang up on them, I guess, is the take away. He's totally the type that if we had tried to "logic" him out of his vote, he would have just dug in, if we hadn't given him the personal "out". I think it really only works if you know someone well enough to put the choice into terms that are personally meaningful to them or to someone they care about.
posted by DarthDuckie at 2:32 PM on September 9, 2016 [51 favorites]

Trump's lying is especially irritating because... he refuses to accept reality.

I blame MeFi's Own Mythbuster for popularizing "I reject your reality and substitute my own." [just kidding]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:35 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Given that Trump has been caught bribing judges and would surely engage in pay-for-play, in combination with his other troubles as as real-estate developer and tax problems as a millionaire, I don't find that placement funny at all.

While bribing judges is in keeping with his character, he's only on the record as bribing two attorney generals and slandering a judge on the basis of his ethnic heritage.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:38 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I half expect her to slump over and collapse any second now. if she were doing a parody of "low energy" Jeb!, it couldn't be more spot-on.

I wouldn't worry about it. As the head of E-Corp, he was always for Trump; he's just extra cranky about being squeezed by Whiterose and the impending government takeover of the Washington Township Plant. [/fake (probably)]
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 2:38 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like Trump's positions on things need to be reduced to some simple kind of time-series plot where we can see how erratic they are at a glance. Like the graphical equivalent of a soundbite.

Hillary's positions on $CONTENTIOUS_ISSUE: [straight line]
Trump's positions: [line drawn by a sharpie attached to a squirrel on meth]
posted by strange chain at 2:40 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

[line drawn by a sharpie attached to a squirrel on meth]

too soon :(

see you at the crossroads Todd
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:42 PM on September 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

balls
posted by strange chain at 2:44 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm probably just not understanding how media should work.

...yes?
posted by Greg Nog at 11:35 AM on September 9 [+] [!]

I actually think I'm not the first person who has felt that media coverage of this election seems to be wall to wall Trump. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm way off base here but I don't really want to be part of someone's snark portfolio.
posted by zutalors! at 2:45 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Take their oil, kill their families. What's non-Christian about that?

We're going to come through the other side soon, right?
posted by petebest at 2:47 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm at work today, pricing new inventory, and just discovered this.
posted by nonasuch at 2:47 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Take their oil, kill their families. What's non-Christian about that?

That's how we 'won' The Crusades, right?
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:49 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

We're going to come through the other side soon, right?

Yes, but what will blow your mind is that the other side is just the same except somehow more absurd.
posted by nubs at 2:50 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: someone's snark portfolio
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:51 PM on September 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump's lying is especially irritating because... he refuses to accept reality.

It wouldn't be so much of a problem if the press wasn't covering the emperor's new clothes like it was fashion week.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

House "Freedom Caucus" member Rep. John Fleming plans to force a vote [autoplay vid warning] next week to impeach IRS commissioner Koskinen ... Some rumors that the Freedom Caucus may try to force a gov't shutdown over it.

They're going to try to force a shutdown over something, that's all they're capable of doing now. Their entire philosophy is to govern by extracting a pound of flesh at every opportunity until the emaciated federal budget will finally fit in that bathtub once and for all. And it's the first budget related deadline that Ryan has to manage without having Boehner around to throw under the bus, so he's about to feel the full force of his idiot party for the first time. That should go swell. If it wasn't the IRS crap, it would be emails, or Benghazi, or just name a poision pill at random and they'd pick that. There's no real relationship between the excuse that they settle on and the shutdown, because it's the goal, not the tactic.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Literally cannot win with these people.

Ah, the Mail, literally a paper that cheered on fascists in the 1930s.
posted by holgate at 3:05 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh hay guise i am at the Pensacola Trump rally nd my phone is dying lol cu l8er
posted by Cookiebastard at 3:24 PM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

It's worse than that - it's a very time-specific belief. Anything he said now is real, while the past is a myth, of which we tell stories. You have a recording of him saying he supported something he now rejects? So what, that was the past, and that's not really real. The man before you says this thing, and this thing is his truth.

So basically he views space as if he were a god, and time as if he were a dog.

Seems about right.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:27 PM on September 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

I actually think I'm not the first person who has felt that media coverage of this election seems to be wall to wall Trump.

You are absolutely correct. I wish the media had some way of, say, counting the number of articles per candidate. It might, just might, reveal some type of, I don't know, bias.
posted by Dashy at 3:29 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

So basically he views ... and time as if he were a dog.

Something something fired like a dog joke here.
posted by tclark at 3:32 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

>

Take their oil, kill their families. What's non-Christian about that?

That's how we 'won' The Crusades, right?

And by win, you mean the only empire the European Christians actually destroyed in their crusades against the Muslims was... uh, the Roman Empire.

oops

not loving the implications of this analogy
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:35 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The media (notice it's no longer 'the newspapers' or even 'the TV networks'?) goes for Entertainment Value. And Hillary is so boring, she's making The Daily Mail's US correspondent cry. That's why, if Trump wins, the only Democrat who can challenge him in 2020 is Kanye West.

Is it the law in Florida...
Dave Barry has a new book out all about Florida. (Because that's all he has left, sadly) I'll check out the texting laws there.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:39 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Forget the "won," part. Who's "we?"

I'll own it. I mean, not all of it. But surely Christians and Europeans bear some moral responsibility for actions committed by other Christians and other Europeans in the past. It diffuses, of course, with the passage of time; but ultimately we (humans) are all in debt to one another, no?
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:39 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I actually think I'm not the first person who has felt that media coverage of this election seems to be wall to wall Trump.

You are absolutely correct. I wish the media had some way of, say, counting the number of articles per candidate. It might, just might, reveal some type of, I don't know, bias.

I know that there were some graphs of coverage in the past. Clinton coverage definitely outpaced Bernie Sanders, partially because she was the frontrunner. Trump coverage outpaced everyone else in the primary, primarily because he was the front runner.

Right nowI feel like having anchors live at the Values Summit, which doesn't seem to be a main event, because Trump is there, while also halfheartedly covering Warren speaking, isn't...bias, but it's amping up the Trump circus. I know Trump/Pence doesn't equal Warren, but there has just been a lot of attention to any time Trump speaks in public, and when Clinton speaks it's more "roll the tape." Maybe partially because Trump is speaking more in primetime.

I felt like that was a pretty clear example, and didn't think that was just my "ignorant of the media" opinion. I definitely feel like Trump coverage overkill has been discussed here.
posted by zutalors! at 3:43 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump events are much more of a spectacle, too. you never know what's going to happen with Trump.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:47 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump events are much more of a spectacle, too. you never know what's going to happen with Trump.

Who wants to hear about policy when Trump says another dumb thing/tell it like it is!
posted by Talez at 3:49 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

The thing is, Clinton is boring. She's an ordinary politician, bit of a wonk / nerd, says ordinary politician things with fairly standard center-left* policy proposals and gives ordinary, sometimes heartwarming, sometimes overly patriotic, sometimes boring stump speeches.

Trump is news. He says ridiculous things that people are ecstatic about / horrified by and the media love it.

They do. They love it. They're fucking high on the drama, and they don't care that it's hurting people.

It's the racist, misogynist bullshit of the family members / friends of some raging asshole who are always running behind said asshole being like "ooh, sorry, yeah, we'll talk to him about it..." and covering for him and never actually stopping him from hurting people because they get off a little bit on being the shocked, SHOCKED onlooker that won't lift a finger and actually do something.

Partial exemption from my wrath is granted to the WaPo.

*insert whichever adjective that will not cause the opening of cans of worms
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Donald Trump: Friend of "The Gays"
posted by Talez at 3:55 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Trump events are much more of a spectacle, too. you never know what's going to happen with Trump.

Le Cirque du ~~Soleil~~ Merde
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 3:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'll own it.

Ahhhhhh HA!! I knew you'd screw up sooner or later you Western-European-type-person you!

Fetch! The Comfy Chair!
posted by petebest at 3:58 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Rep. Louie Gohmert: "I’d like to elect a godly man, but we don’t have that choice" [real]
posted by zachlipton at 3:59 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

The thing is, Clinton is boring.

I suppose may be true for those who find reality and substance boring.
posted by perspicio at 4:00 PM on September 9, 2016 [38 favorites]

We're talking about the US news media and their perceptions of their viewership here, so...
posted by Artw at 4:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

The thing is, Clinton is boring.

I suppose may be true for those who find reality and substance boring.

Oh, come on, you know there are never any car chases and nothing blows up. She doesn't even swear.
posted by dilettante at 4:05 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Remember that time HRC was on that wrestling show?
posted by petebest at 4:07 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Chris Matthews will not get off this guy on his show for saying that Clinton starting the birther movement. "Do you have proof? Go in your briefcase and get it! This is a live show, we have an hour."
posted by zutalors! at 4:08 PM on September 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

ooh now Chris Matthews cut that guy off and cut to Joy Reid raining down anti truther truth
posted by zutalors! at 4:10 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

this is awesome
posted by zutalors! at 4:12 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whaaat? Is this legal? Has some mad scientist conducted some kind of spine-graft?
posted by Artw at 4:13 PM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

They do. They love it. They're fucking high on the drama, and they don't care that it's hurting people.

Trump to the cablenewsers is the exact equivalent of a high speed car chase that happens around 3pm Eastern with the feed taken live from KBFE, where occasionally it ends with a big deadly crash or someone getting shot and then they're terribly sorry until next time.

Now, the daytime audience of cable news is not that large. But it includes every damn political journalist.
posted by holgate at 4:14 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whaaat? Is this legal? Has some mad scientist conducted some kind of spine-graft?

ok, never mind.
posted by zutalors! at 4:14 PM on September 9, 2016

Katy Tur is doing some sort of Gish Gallop with actual facts.
posted by Talez at 4:15 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I suppose may be true for those who find reality and substance boring.

Top rated TV: Fantasy/violence/rape/royalty/dragons, Zombie apocalypse, NCIS, WWE, America's Got Talent
Top grossing movies: Superheroes and animated talking animals
Best selling books: Harry Potter, Bill O'Reilly's WW2 and Oprah's Book Club
Reality and substance ARE boring, and Americans hate being bored.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:18 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Remember that time HRC was on that wrestling show?

man, you joke, but friend-of-Trump Vince McMahon has been happily using the election in storylines -- except both of the dudes involved are Trump.

One pairs Darren Young (who, by bizarre coincidence is the only openly gay man on the WWE roster [not that it ever ever comes up in storylines]) with 67-year-old former champion Bob Backlund in a campaign to "Make Darren Young Great Again"

The other has cheerful jobber Bo Dallas waving "BO-lieve in Bo" signs closely modeled off the Trump/Pence lawn sign.

I'd say it's the strangest damn thing, but it doesn't even make the shortlist of strange things in this thread alone.

apologies if you're already hip to this from watching raw and smackdown. also, why in god's name are you watching raw and smackdown?
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 4:18 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hillary may seem boring, but at least she is sane. Watched this last night, Rachel Maddow talks about America's chief conspiracy monger and his affect on the election.
Rachel Maddow: “The Top Of The Republican Ticket” Is Reading And Circulating “The Kook Fringe”
Maddow: Alex Jones Is Now "With The Upper Echelons Of The Republican Presidential Campaign"
This year in 2016 with Donald Trump at the top of the ticket for the Republican Party, Alex Jones is no longer just broadcasting to your fillings and your molars. He is apparently what the upper echelons of the Republican presidential campaign is reading and citing and circulating, even at this late date in the campaign. And matters because it's not just the kook fringe, it's just not the sort of remunerative conspiracy theory world of that part of the conservative media machine. It's not even just whacky people who have made their way into Republican politics at a surprising height. This is now the top of the Republican ticket. And it's after Labor Day, and this is a presidential year.
Seems that Truth Is Out of Style.
posted by dougzilla at 4:41 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

From zachlipton's link “Hillary is definitely not our candidate, we know exactly what she is going to do,” said Susana Pando-Taupier, who writes “pro-life” children books.

How? Wut? pro-life children's books?! I thought I had heard it all. I could not concieve (heh) of a book you would want to read to your child that would explain about abortion so I went to Amazon.. Turns out she is an illustrator. One of the books she illustrated is Pat the Gnat and the Broken Chrysalis which is about how Pat the Gnat discovers a broken chrysalis which becomes a butterfly with a damaged wing. As one reviewer explains, "Later on he meets the damaged butterfly after it is born from its cocoon, they become friends, and Pat the Gnat learns that God values all life, and so should we. The positive messages and spiritual truths are perfectly blended with a cute tale of insect friendship!"

So good luck killing any spiders or mosquitoes in front of your child because "God values all life." Anyway, back to the Values Summit.

Sopan Deb: Trump says here that pastors cannot talk about Christianity or preach...from the pulpit. (?) re: Johnson Amendment.

The Johnson Amendment has blocked our pastors and ministers and others from speaking their minds from their own pulpits.If they want to talk about Christianity, if they want to preach, if they want to talk about politics, they are unable to do so. If they want to do it, they take a tremendous risk, that they lose their tax-exempt status. All religious leaders should freely be able to express their thoughts and feelings on religious matters

So once again he shows his complete ignorance on a topic but really I'm laughing at the idea that preachers cannot talk about Christianity from their pulpit. That's amazing. What does he think they talk about every Sunday morning? What they had for breakfast?

There is so much to unpack here I could write for hours, but first and foremost is this idea that they "take a tremendous risk." Right? Poor persecuted Christians. Do you know how difficult it is to lose your tax exempt status if you are a church? You have to be brazenly politicking and you practically have to broadcast it on TV to the nation in order for the IRS to take a notice. I don't know, maybe what the Religious Right wants is the ability to air campaign ads for their favored candidate or for the Preacher to check everyone's ballot personally and advise the wayward soul they are going to Hell if they vote for Clinton. I have no doubt that they hint at that already.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:44 PM on September 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

Alex Burns: Words not mentioned so far by Trump at Values Voter Summit: life, marriage, abortion, unborn, Israel

On the other hand he did promise them that under "A Trump administration, our Christian Heritage will be cherished, protected, defended, like you've never seen before."

Unless it interferes with his round of golf Sunday morning or his desire to divorce his wife or his latest scam to bilk money out of unfortunates. Then any Pastor or Minister who attempts to speak to him about his behavior will learn how much Trump "cherishes" his Christian heritage.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:51 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

On the other hand he did promise them that under "A Trump administration, our Christian Heritage will be cherished, protected, defended, like you've never seen before."

"So I have this brilliant idea to reduce the deficit! We can institute a tax on non-Christians and it'll be great! The tax can go to maintaining the country even though they don't believe what we believe and they'll be able to worship whatever funny god they believe in and we'll just leave them alone!"

[fake]
posted by Talez at 4:56 PM on September 9, 2016

"Christian heritage" just makes my fucking skin crawl.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

Someone ask them which branch of Christianity. Like should we make it Catholicism?
posted by Talez at 4:58 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Papists? Don't be absurd. None of these Anglicans either. If your soul hasn't been slain than nothing can save you in Trumpistan.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:01 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Instead of releasing his health records, Trump to reveal 'personal health regimen' to Dr. Oz [real]
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:15 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Great, so we have a fake businessman telling a fake doctor how he remains healthy.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:18 PM on September 9, 2016 [32 favorites]

Oh, good, they're dragging Ivanka in to keep Daddy in line for the Dr. Oz appearance.

Hey, when's the next Jewish holiday? When Ivanka's too busy to watch him because she's tied up with faith-related responsibilities, that's when he gets up to trouble.
posted by palomar at 5:21 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

palomar, Rosh Hashana is the first week of October.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:22 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Finally, the October Surprise!
posted by Yowser at 5:23 PM on September 9, 2016 [23 favorites]

Holy shit the Rudy Ghouliani impression of Hillary's long answer 48 minutes in. I want to turn that into a Vine.

Also, Ghouliani saying we're going to intimidate China. Because, you know, 670,000 soldiers is totally a match for 610,000,000 people ready to serve.
posted by Talez at 5:24 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rachel Maddow: “The Top Of The Republican Ticket”

... or TORT,
posted by ctmf at 5:28 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Chris Hayes has a really moving account of Clinton on 9/11 on his show. I mean he tried to talk about Trump but said the guy wasn't around.
posted by zutalors! at 5:29 PM on September 9, 2016

Someone ask them which branch of Christianity. Like should we make it Catholicism?

Let's go with Arianism, just to mess with their heads.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:30 PM on September 9, 2016

This fucking rally is der führer. Holy fucking shit.

"Best jobs making president that god ever created"

"No safer place than a Trump rally"
posted by Talez at 5:34 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

What's fucking next? "We're gonna take back the Philippines"?
posted by Talez at 5:37 PM on September 9, 2016

The economy is going to be so good that companies are going to be competing for you! Wages are going up up up! Der Führer guarantees it! Believe me!
posted by Talez at 5:40 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The economy is going to be so good that companies are going to be competing for you! Wages are going up up up!

Uh oh, careful there Donald. Headline "Trump: companies need to pay higher wages" isn't going to win any new rich friends.
posted by ctmf at 5:46 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Star Wars is back people. Missile defense now.
posted by Talez at 5:46 PM on September 9, 2016

Sopan Deb: !!! Trump just said Clinton could walk into this arena of 20,000, shoot somebody and not get prosecuted.

And is that better or worse than Trump standing in the middle of 5th Avenue, shooting someone, and not losing a single vote?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:48 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Hey, when's the next Jewish holiday? When Ivanka's too busy to watch him because she's tied up with faith-related responsibilities, that's when he gets up to trouble.

Could we stop it with this already? This is based on nothing more than conspiratorial speculation from an article quoted earlier upthread that offered no real evidence to suggest that Ivanka has any meaningful influence on Donald -- everything it said pointed the opposite way, in fact -- and it has a really gross antisemitic vibe to it. Those Jews control everything, amirite?

(& that source article also went on to say "It could be a big problem if the people who make our president not crazy aren’t available one day a week," as if taking days off on a weekly basis were a uniquely Jewish thing.)
posted by Westringia F. at 5:49 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wait, what? No! No! Oh, God, it's all true. Oh, Todd...
posted by Don Pepino at 5:50 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

i think Trump is all projection, so he probably really wants to shoot somebody.
posted by zutalors! at 5:50 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Maybe we should let him maybe he'll quit if we just let him
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump can shoot me if he quits the race but not before.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Jennifer Jacobs: Trump says if Iranian sailors make gestures toward our ships they're not allowed to make, they will be "shot out of the water."

I'm pretty sure that Hillary "war hawk" Clinton would show some restraint and not start a war over gestures.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

Star Wars is back people. Missile defense now.

He mentioned Star Wars in the CiC forum I'm pretty sure, but it was lost in the torrent of other insane shit he said during that 30 mins. They're just openly cribbing from Reagan now like the 6th time DC Comics rebooted Batman, it's just rehashing the same things the base voters instictually recognize as "Republican policies". Star Wars! More ships! Increase military spending! Walls! Deportation! Something about nukes! They have no concept of any of the details or implications of what he's saying, and neither does Trump himself, he's literally just reading from the prompter to keep on script and not say anything even more insane/unhinged/racist/openly dictatorial for 59 more days.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

i think Trump is all projection, so he probably really wants to shoot somebody
I'd start wearing a bulletproof vest if I were Christie. I mean, I'd do a lot of things differently if I were Christie, but that's one of them.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 5:56 PM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Y'know how one of the major parties was always defunding schools and keeping teacher salaries really low? So then they ran a candidate so godawful that only victims of said schooling would even be expected to support him? And a lot of them did?

The good news is that spiritual institutions ensured that peaceful intention and kindness were- *stops to listen to earpiece*

I'm sorry, I'm being told we're fscked.
posted by petebest at 6:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [21 favorites]

The Democrat in my local competitive Congressional race, NJ's 5th, will be doing some remote phone banking in the near future. When that time comes, I'll be seeking all of you!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:03 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

it's just rehashing the same things the base voters instictually recognize as "Republican policies". Star Wars! More ships! Increase military spending! Walls! Deportation! Something about nukes! They have no concept of any of the details or implications of what he's saying,

Yeah I keep waiting for the shoe to drop in re: money. Every speech he promises massive spending: big tax cuts for the wealthy, increasing the size of the military, infrastructure, Giant Wall, fabulous schools, more cops, more border patrol and INS, ObamaCare switched out for something better. He loves to make these promises-- presents for everyone and drinks on the house-- but he never mentions where the money is coming from. I know there were the ideas put forward by Steven Miller about how they will cut TANF and Dept. of Ed and Dept. of Commerce and Dept. of Energy but all the functions of those Departments will have to met somehow so I don't think there will be much savings.

My point is that he never tells people at his rallies how he will pay for all of his grandiose ideas. You would think they would start to notice that he is a big talker without an actual budget-- even a fake budget would be a start. I know it is because he doesn't want to give Clinton any fodder but it has gone past ridiculous, all this pie in the sky nonsense.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:06 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

My point is that he never tells people at his rallies how he will pay for all of his grandiose ideas.

Well yeah, that's Sales. You're thinking of Tech Support, maybe?
posted by petebest at 6:10 PM on September 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

My point is that he never tells people at his rallies how he will pay for all of his grandiose ideas. You would think they would start to notice that he is a big talker without an actual budget-- even a fake budget would be a start

Republicans don't have to pay for shit. The deficit only matters for Democratic Presidents and Democratic priorities.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 PM on September 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

Trump's a "businessman"; he doesn't do "budgets"... he'll probably just do an IPO for the Federal Government.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:11 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

To me it's like you are dating the manager of a small grocery store and he starts talking about buying you diamond bracelets and a trip to China and a vacation home in the Hamptons and the newest Mercedes "S" Class and a closet full of Jimmy Choos. Most sane people would wonder, how can this guy afford all this? I guess there are some people who just say "Cool. Let's go" and never give it a second thought until they are arrested by the FBI for aiding and abetting.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:20 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Folks, "I think that thing you said is [racist/sexist/whatever]" is in fact the reasonable way to broach the topic, and if you really need to discuss it further, you can take it either private or to MetaTalk. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:21 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

he'll probably just do an IPO for the Federal Government.

Way too convoluted. He's planning to stiff foreign T-bill holders, and has no sense of the consequences of even whispering such a thing if the polls tighten further.
posted by holgate at 6:25 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

My point is that he never tells people at his rallies how he will pay for all of his grandiose ideas

Yesterday, he seems to have said he'd find the money for his cockamamie ideas by "eliminating waste" and "clamping down on fraud." As transparently empty as those statements are, I think it's going to be good enough for his base, who already feel the government is wasteful and fraudulent, so there must be plenty of money there once you clean it up, right?
posted by Miko at 6:25 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe, since he's so rich, he plans to serve his country without accepting the Presidential paycheck.
posted by Sublimity at 6:32 PM on September 9, 2016

Right, I was going to say, it's pointless to ask. He has an answer: cut all of the "dumb" stuff from government.
posted by ctmf at 6:34 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

He'd just do the same thing W did, not pay for it at all. Print money, issue bonds, put it on the national charge card, whatever you want to call it.

Which is actually not a bad idea considering real borrowing costs for the government are still close to negative. There's absolutely no justification for running austerity budgets right now. The budget deficit does not matter, at all, and we've been shooting ourselves in the collective heads for 8 years giving up literally trillions in opportunity costs on the alter of teabagger ideology. All that will of course go right back out the window the moment there's a ~~white~~ Republican president back in charge, they're happy to spend on bombs, oil and deportation, just not healthcare, financial regulation, or anything at all that improves the lives of the 99% one iota.

But just because we should be spending more on investments doesn't make Trump's "investment" ideas good.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:34 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

NYT: Reliably Red Ohio County Finds Both Trump and Clinton Hard to Stomach

DELAWARE, Ohio — Donald J. Trump is not popular in this prospering county north of Columbus. The Republican nominee’s dystopian language does not resonate here. . .

But many residents of this reliably Republican county, which last voted for a Democratic president in 1916, simply cannot imagine voting for Mr. Trump’s Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton. And that goes a long way toward explaining why she has struggled to separate herself from Mr. Trump in this bellwether state.

I . . I don't think it does? And I think you're being incredibly dishonest in that framing. Does someone have a Twitface thing to yap at the Public Editor

I'll just be over here refreshing the NewsDiff
posted by petebest at 6:40 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Techdirt: If You're A Journalist Who Thinks That Pointing Out Lies Shows Bias, You're Not A Journalist
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:46 PM on September 9, 2016 [37 favorites]

Techdirt: If You're A Journalist Who Thinks That Pointing Out Lies Shows Bias, You're Not A Journalist

Political talk-show host Chris Matthews, for example, said after the event that if Lauer had called Trump out for lying, that would be equivalent to expressing an opinion, and moderators are supposed to be neutral

Of course he said that, Matthews and Lauer are on the same network.
posted by zutalors! at 6:51 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hey Delaware is in the county directly north of mine!

And I can tell you from personal experience what explains it: racism and misogyny, the evil twin moppets of this election.

It isn't a mystery. Say it with me reporters: racism and misogyny.
posted by Tevin at 6:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Both the Washington Post and the New York Times editorial boards published "enough with the equivalence" editorials in response to the Commander-in-Chief forum.

NY Times: A Debate Disaster Waiting to Happen

There was not much of a contest in Wednesday night’s forum with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. Mrs. Clinton answered the questions of the moderator, Matt Lauer, in coherent sentences, often with specific details. Mr. Trump alternated between rambling statements and grandiose boasts when he wasn’t lying.

Washington Post: The Hillary Clinton email story is out of control

Imagine how history would judge today’s Americans if, looking back at this election, the record showed that voters empowered a dangerous man because of . . . a minor email scandal. There is no equivalence between Ms. Clinton’s wrongs and Mr. Trump’s manifest unfitness for office.

It's nice but I have no illusion this will change the stories their news desks will be publishing.
posted by peeedro at 6:54 PM on September 9, 2016 [41 favorites]

My point is that he never tells people at his rallies how he will pay for all of his grandiose ideas

I've seen Trump supporters claim that he can pay for everything with the money we save from not paying welfare to illegal aliens. It's hard to count the ways that this idea is idiotic but I've seen that in various forms many times.
posted by octothorpe at 6:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I actually think that NYT piece is decent for showing off the spoilt-bastard snowflakery of the American swing-state voter:

Mrs. Clinton has not won the support of Ms. Shelton, who has not registered to vote and does not plan to do so. “They don’t care about us,” Ms. Shelton said of Mr. Trump and Mrs. Clinton. A few minutes later, she opened the door at least a crack: “I’ll tell you what — if she shows up here, she would have my vote.”

But if she showed up on your door, you'd say "well, did you bring a lollipop?" And if she had a lollipop, you'd say "is it raspberry?" The right to vote is wasted on you.
posted by holgate at 7:01 PM on September 9, 2016 [40 favorites]

I honestly cannot read that comment as an attack on Ivanka's religion so much as a reference to the at best half-baked theory that some of Trump's most ridiculous tweets have come on days when Ivanka and Jared would have been busy celebrating religious holidays. It's a somewhat stupid theory, and I'd be perfectly happy if we stopped discussing it at this point, but I don't see how it's really slamming her because of her religion.
posted by zachlipton at 7:01 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Mrs. Clinton

Not Ms.? Does the style guide not apply to the editorials?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:03 PM on September 9, 2016

And the best argument for the national popular vote for the presidency is that it would end a 20-year business for Ohio Special Snowflakes who possibly maybe might vote for someone if they show up at their doorstep with a helium balloon saying "Best Voter Ever!"
posted by holgate at 7:10 PM on September 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

From August:

The TV host Larry King accepted $225,000 (£173,000) to interview Ukraine’s pro-Russian prime minister, according to a politician investigating a “black ledger” detailing alleged secret payments to the US from Ukraine’s former ruling party.

The same "black ledger" that listed payments to Manafort.

All roads lead to Putin.
posted by zennie at 7:11 PM on September 9, 2016 [39 favorites]

Clinton: Trump is "Dangerously Unfunky"

What, it's perfect. Run it!
posted by petebest at 7:16 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Is that Hillary Clinton or George Clinton?
posted by mmoncur at 7:20 PM on September 9, 2016 [22 favorites]

I should just say that if you do see that comment as attacking Ivanka's religion, all the power to you. I'm not trying to say that you're wrong or shouldn't feel that way, just that it didn't come off that way to me on first reading.
posted by zachlipton at 7:25 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

racism and misogyny, the evil twin moppets of this election.

The important thing is which one is Kevin and which one is Tim Tom, because I could see it going either way.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:29 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Clinton: Kim Jong-Un is "Atomic Dog"
posted by Sys Rq at 7:34 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

ROU did we just become best friends? Because I have been thinking the same thing. I'm leaning towards Kevin as racism in a surprise twist.
posted by Tevin at 7:35 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yesterday, he seems to have said he'd find the money for his cockamamie ideas by "eliminating waste" and "clamping down on fraud." As transparently empty as those statements are, I think it's going to be good enough for his base, who already feel the government is wasteful and fraudulent, so there must be plenty of money there once you clean it up, right?

Ah, that ancient cry: "Waste, Fraud and Abuse".

Let's never forget that this slogan is rooted in a belief that poor people are actually evil. But I repeat myself:

There is an underlying assumption in the "waste, fraud and abuse" discourse that pervades the conversation about welfare reform (and related public benefits, particularly SSI and TANF or other cash benefits).

It is that people with low incomes, and particularly people caught in generational poverty, see their children as cash cows.

Actually, people of all socioeconomic status love their children and will do what they feel is necessary to care for their children as best they can. Since the welfare "reforms" of the 1990s, there are fewer and fewer ways for people to get the help they need to pay for housing, food and medical care; to find and retain employment; and to care for their families. As a result, people do what they need to do to survive.

Ultimately, people in a variety of difficult or even desperate situations are often forced to make very difficult ethical decisions. It's immoral to blame the victims, rather than to blame a kafkaesque welfare system and the conservative policy makers who designed and continue to break it.

Donald Trump is the true wasteful, fraudulent abuser here.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:40 PM on September 9, 2016 [16 favorites]

The important thing is which one is Kevin and which one is Tim Tom, because I could see it going either way.

It just became clear to me that 24 and 21 are Bert and Ernie.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:42 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Shit, I'd prefer Dr. Girlfriend to be president before I'd consider Trump. And she's a literal member of the Guild of Calamitous Intent.

And a literal cartoon.
posted by Mister Fabulous at 7:46 PM on September 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yeah, but she's also competence personified.

and whenever she's onscreen I get Mark Sandman crooning, "Sheila, Sheila!" in my ear
posted by Existential Dread at 7:48 PM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

As big of a fan of Mrs. Clinton that I have become, I am not thrilled that she called Trump supporters in a "basket of deplorables" tonight.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:59 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Less a basket than a sack, really.

Anyway, I'm kind of curious to see how that bullshit Dr. Oz appearance turns out.

On the one hand, both Trump and Oz are moneygrubbing charlatans who will endorse absolutely anything for a quick buck, and Oz is apparently a registered Republican.

On the other hand, Dr. Oz is a Muslim son of Turkish immigrants. It may not be the fluff job one expects. Especially if he cottons to the notion that controversy is ratings gold.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:05 PM on September 9, 2016

Republicans don't have to pay for shit

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=725z

Blue is federal debt to GDP; I added consumer debt / wages (red) just to show why GWB's debt take-on seemed flat -- the economy was being artificially juiced by a $6T ($1.2T/yr) mortgage fraud debt bubble/bomb.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:08 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Eh, seems to me that racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and Islamaphobia are pretty deplorable.

And she did say it was only half of them. That seems charitable.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:08 PM on September 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

I think it's great that Hillary is calling out the alt-right/deplorable part of Trump's base and declaring she wants no part of it. Spade is spade. And if you're not one of those people (and no one thinks they are), she wasn't talking about you. Although I imagine some Trump supporters will find a way to be offended.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:09 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I mean, those things are deplorable. I wish she would appeal to better angels, though.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:10 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wish she had the political leeway to give the kind of shit she was alluding to the blistering, full-throated denouncement it deserves.
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:14 PM on September 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

Rep. Louie Gohmert: "I’d like to elect a godly man, but we don’t have that choice" [real]

We Know Plenty About Clinton’s Religion(factcheck.org)

...
"Time, June 27, 2014: Clinton grew up attending First United Methodist Church of Park Ridge in Chicago, where she was confirmed in sixth grade. Her mother taught Sunday school, and Clinton was active in youth group, Bible studies and altar guild. On Saturdays during Illinois’s harvest season, she and others from her youth group would babysit children of nearby migrant workers."
...
CNN noted that in May 2015, Clinton impressed a voter in a bakery after she cited and discussed Corinthians 13 on the spot.

In an interview with the New York Times in 2014, Clinton cited the Bible as “the biggest influence” on her thinking. “I was raised reading it, memorizing passages from it and being guided by it,” she said. “I still find it a source of wisdom, comfort and encouragement.”

As a senator, she participated in weekly Senate prayer breakfasts. The New York Times noted that she was also once a Sunday school teacher.

That article goes on to say: “In a brief quiz about her theological views, Mrs. Clinton said she believed in the resurrection of Jesus, though she described herself as less sure of the doctrine that being a Christian is the only way to salvation. As for how literally to interpret the Bible, she takes a characteristically centrist view.”
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:15 PM on September 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

Ugh, that was an unforced error and she's going to get crucified for it, over the next few news cycles at least. She'll probably have to apologize. And she could've avoided it by saying "a small number" or "a lunatic fringe" but she had to say half. (Doesn't matter that she's right)

I hope I'm wrong.
posted by condour75 at 8:15 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

On the other hand, Dr. Oz is a Muslim son of Turkish immigrants. It may not be the fluff job one expects. Especially if he cottons to the notion that controversy is ratings gold.

I give this a 0% chance of happening.

And oh god Dr. Oz. This election really is just about celebrity vs. competence. My husband always complains about Dr. Oz because he's (we're both) vegetarians and people at his office are constantly coming up to him with "Dr. Oz says I should eat more [kale/quinoa/snake oil]. Can you tell me how to kale/quinoa/snake oil?" Because people apparently really do believe every single damn thing they see on TV.

Meanwhile, in my ivory tower, today at a training workshop, I was trying to fix some misbehaving hardware real quick before it started and one of the faculty attendees was like, let's just get Trump in here, apparently he knows how to fix everything, ~~believe me! lololol!
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:21 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

Not Ms.? Does the style guide not apply to the editorials?

This question has been asked and answered and the short version is that the Times allows female subjects to choose their preference and "Mrs." is Hillary Clinton's preference.
posted by Miko at 8:21 PM on September 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

I get the fear that it will cause a brouhaha, but honestly I appreciate the candidness. I'm sure Clinton will get flak, but I'm also sure she'll handle it just fine.
posted by defenestration at 8:21 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

And if confronting fascism and bigotry costs her the election, is what's left of the country even worth saving?
posted by tonycpsu at 8:24 PM on September 9, 2016 [46 favorites]

We are really reaching for the next Clinton non-scandal. Did she not smile enough today too?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:26 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thought: after the success of the "realness" of the HONY post, perhaps the basket comments are a trial bubble for further dabbling in candid "authenticity."
posted by defenestration at 8:26 PM on September 9, 2016

Chris Geidner is ranting about it now on the Twitter.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:29 PM on September 9, 2016

i haven't made my way through all of these epic posts, so apologies if i'm repeating a thought or am grossly out of context, but i want to share something that has been occurring to me for the last few days.

i spent much of the summer feverishly pouring over metafilter election threads, but lately i've stayed away. the reason finally dawned on me, reading over this last post (which is a perfectly fine post, Church HatesTucker). It reads like it belongs on fanfare. And then it dawned on me - someone who hasn't watch a minute of reality television in my life - that Donald Trump has turned this election in to reality television. that's why it is tough to campaign against him - he isn't playing the same game as HRC. It also explains why the media loves him so much, and why he is so great for ratings. he's playing a character. he's not campaigning in good faith. he's playing to his strengths - like anyone would, trying to accomplish something very very difficult.

he is, of course, a patently racist person, dangerously incurious, manifestly unqualified and undeserving of the job. it's not clear to me that he wants it so much as he wants to win.

anyway, obsessing over these posts - which brought me a tremendous amount of entertainment and comfort, in all honesty - ultimately left me feeling bloated in the way that i imagine watching the apprentice or survivor would. of course the utterly terrifying thing is that the stakes are so dangerously high and that even if Donald Trump loses he has nonetheless left his fecal-scented mark all over our society.

but for me it is important to not normalize him or give him more credit than he deserves by kicking around high-falutin' words like "trumpism" or invoking a movement. he's a reality tv guy trying to sneak in by making us believe in the reality he is presenting. not gonna buy it, pal. we're better than that.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 8:31 PM on September 9, 2016 [26 favorites]

And if confronting fascism and bigotry costs her the election, is what's left of the country even worth saving?

This pretty much.

If a large swath of Americans will gladly let der führer come to power then we're pretty much beyond saving as a republic. The First American Empire will be YUUUUUUUUUUUUGE believe me.
posted by Talez at 8:34 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I am not thrilled that she called Trump supporters in a "basket of deplorables" tonight.

Half of them. The full quote made it clear that she thought that the other half were people who had good reasons to feel left behind by America and were looking for any kind of hope from someone making promises to them that they don't really expect him to keep, but at least he's making them.

(And to be fair, 20% of the electorate being irredeemable bigoted shitheads seems like an underestimate to me, given the 27% crazification factor.)

It would be nice to be able to treat it cleverly: so, you're offended? You're not one of the ones towards whom Hillary is genuinely sympathetic? You're just a proud bigot?

But of course, that's not possible: the snippet is round the world and back before the full quote got out of bed, etc. And the usually suspect will be making the comparison to Romney's 47% line soon enough. So, yeah. Fundraisers, gah.
posted by holgate at 8:41 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

And if confronting fascism and bigotry costs her the election, is what's left of the country even worth saving?

This pretty much.

I agree. Even in these threads people give Trump huge credit for throwing a stat around here and there, and get more out of "witty" snark at people who are trying to engage sincerely.

It's just so much grading on a curve and getting nasty, exactly like the campaign season itself.
posted by zutalors! at 8:42 PM on September 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

FWIW, I was not offended. I think she's right. I just worry about the election, like the rest of everyone.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:43 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

holgate: "(And to be fair, 20% of the electorate being irredeemable bigoted shitheads seems like an underestimate to me, given the 27% crazification factor.)"

Part of what makes Obama a great politician is that even at the height of his frustration, you never thought that he thought that about anyone besides Republican congressmen.

Deleted a reference to the 47%. I'll let someone else take up that thread.
posted by roll truck roll at 8:46 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let's just nip any concern about the "basket of deplorables" comment in the bud, with a bit of context:

“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the 'basket of deplorables'. Right?” Clinton said to applause and laughter from the crowd of supporters at an LGBT for Hillary fundraiser where Barbra Streisand performed. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it.”

“And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up,” she added.

I think that by stating up front that she was being grossly generalistic, she made it perfectly clear that one can safely (and must) look past the proportion of A vs B being offered to discern the actual point.
posted by perspicio at 8:50 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Part of what makes Obama a great politician is that even at the height of his frustration, you never thought that he thought that about anyone besides Republican congressmen.

Hm.

"So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

There are bitter clingers who are still bitter about that, which is why Trump will break 65% in West Virginia.

I think it's substantively different from the 47% comment: whether you pay federal income tax is not the same as whether you're a bigot. if you're a bigot, Hillary doesn't want your vote, and that's what she'll have to say very forcefully when the press trundle along on it.
posted by holgate at 8:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

If there is any possible 'bright side' to President Trump, it is his gross incompetence. I can't see even a slight possibility of him building a "First American Empire"; he will instead either do to America what he did to Atlantic City or make us a subservient client-state to Putin's Russian Empire. Not that he won't hurt the millions of people he has promised to in his hate campaign, but he will also seriously hurt the people who support him and are "relying on him", destroying their jobs and their savings while making America just another failed Trump enterprise. And if you think him losing will result in a violent response, it's nothing compared to their response to him "letting us down".

If Hillary's frankness about the "basket of deplorables" doesn't help her campaign, both getting more people who fear the Trumpists out to vote and making his non-deplorable supporters think twice, then maybe America is indeed no longer worth saving. Yes, the Media response is sure to be awful, but we need to be much better than Our Media, the Media that essentially created the monster that is Trump. And Obama "never thinking that about anyone" to me suggests a level of naivete approaching gullibility.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:54 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

oneswellfoop: "And Obama "never thinking that about anyone" to me suggests a level of naivete approaching gullibility."

That was his whole narrative, that he was fighting for everyone, even the people who hated him. That goes all the way back to his first DNC speech. Again, that's what made him a great politician. Doesn't matter if it wasn't "true."
posted by roll truck roll at 9:01 PM on September 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

She doesn't get to use the "I'm just saying what everyone's thinking" response, and have everyone fawn all over her for being a "straight talker"? Huh.
posted by ctmf at 9:06 PM on September 9, 2016 [61 favorites]

There's an outside chance, of course, that this will give the big news orgs cover to do some "actually, it's true, they're racists" stories. You know, for balance.
posted by condour75 at 9:08 PM on September 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Doesn't matter if it wasn't "true."
Not saying it isn't true, just not sure if it made him a great, or even a smart politician.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:09 PM on September 9, 2016

heh.....somebody already scooped up basketofdeplorables.com and it re-directs to brietbart.
posted by lampshade at 9:09 PM on September 9, 2016 [24 favorites]

I think "basket of deplorables" was definitely a deliberate trial balloon. I mean, look at the language. She could have said "Half of Trump's supporters are raving racist lunatics who consider women and minorities at best half-human" like we're all thinking.

Instead, we get "basket of deplorables", a nice grandmotherly way of saying it. "Oh, Dearie, don't you worry about them, they're just a basket of deplorables."

And yeah, there will be a backlash, but then we'll get republican talking heads saying "How dare she call them deplorable" and the journalists* will come back at them with "Who? The racists? The xenophobes? Which ones are you defending?"

* Do we still have journalists? I remember them being useful.
posted by mmoncur at 9:10 PM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

You only get to be a straight talker if you tell people in Kentucky and WV that you're going to make coal uuuuuuuge again, and refrain from talking to the people who currently have jobs fracking natural gas or working the Dakota tar sands. Trump is probably going to straight-talk the Maine fishermen that he can negotiate with the Atlantic to bring back all the cod.
posted by holgate at 9:10 PM on September 9, 2016 [7 favorites]

Next Week: BASKET OF DEPLORABLES vs. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE in the ultimate battle!
posted by mmoncur at 9:11 PM on September 9, 2016 [39 favorites]

Oh, I think I misunderstood you, onefellswoop. Sorry.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:13 PM on September 9, 2016

Half of his supporters are a basket of deplorables and the other half are tacitly supporting the deplorables. If the shoe fits...

I don't know how it will play politically though.
posted by Justinian at 9:13 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

You only get to be considered a straight talker if you tell reassuring lies to an adequately gullible portion of the audience. Trump's "inconsistency" is just him telling a variety of reassuring lies to different groups of gullible audiences. A few, like his "outreach to Blacks", aren't working, because they're not privileged enough to afford to be that gullible.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:26 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump Charity Gave $100,000 to David Bossie’s Citizens United that Helped Fund Lawsuit Against Mogul’s Foe

This a bit misleading. The Trump Foundation gave to Citizens United Foundation. Citizens United like many organizations such as the ACLU and the Sierra Club have two (supposedly) separate organizations, one of which is a 501(c)(4) social welfare organization that can involve itself in political lobbying and another that is a 501(c)(3) public charity. The ACLU is separate from the ACLU Foundation. The Sierra Club is separate from the Sierra Club Foundation. Citizens United is separate from Citizens United Foundation.

The donations to the 501(c)(4) lobbying organization are not tax-deductible and permit political activities. Donations to the 501(c)(3) public charity are tax-deductible but prohibit political activity.

So the donation from the Trump Foundation to the Citizens United Foundation is legal since both are 501(c)(3) organizations, supposedly independent of political activity.

The interesting thing is the subject of the lawsuit filed by the Citizens United Foundation against the New York Attorney General. Federal law allows public charities to keep the names of donors anonymous. But New York has a state law that requires charities that solicit donations in the state to disclose the names of the donors. Citizens United was suing to prevent the disclosure of donor names to the state of New York because they want to keep their donors secret.

So you have the Clinton Foundation that voluntarily discloses the names of all of its donors, even though not required by federal law and then you have the Citizens United Foundation fighting in court to keep its donors secret.

Guess which Foundation is targeted by the press as a scandal based on the names of its donors.
posted by JackFlash at 9:52 PM on September 9, 2016 [53 favorites]

Pilate, very strong leader. Different system from ours, but very strong. #trumpgospel
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:16 PM on September 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I should also point out that the Trump Foundation is a slightly different type of charity called a private foundation, which is different from a public charity. A private foundation like Trump's must always disclose its donors by federal law. So Trump has no personal interest in whether New York law requires it or not. He simply sees an opportunity to harass the New York Attorney General by contributing to the Citizens United Foundation case.
posted by JackFlash at 10:23 PM on September 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

But surely Christians and Europeans bear some moral responsibility for actions committed by other Christians and other Europeans in the past

Sorry, coming at this way way late (and tipsy) because of Friday night happy hour at work, but no. Chrisians and Europeans do not bear moral responsibility for those actions any more than any "sins of the fathers" bullshit. What we (by which I mean people who have the good fortune to be born white male protestants in a WASP society) have is a moral obligation to examine the world around us and try to use our advantage to make it a better place.

It doesn't fucking MATTER who our parents oppressed or murdered or subjugated, we have no innate responsibility to the victims of our parents crimes. What we do have is an obligation to be decent fucking human beings, realize our privelege, and use some of it to raise others if we can.

It's a fine distinction, but one that really matters to me. One view is that of an obligation outside of yourself, which can easily be shirked and explained away. The other is just being a good god damned human being and trying to help drag all of us off this rock any way we can.
posted by jammer at 10:32 PM on September 9, 2016 [11 favorites]

Basket of deplorables didn't go over well in this household. I was all for it; I think she should go with "horseshit" every chance she gets, but my wife thought it was deplorable and beneath her and betrayed a nasty classism. Which, if you roll with that, is definitely in play. ASCII shrug.
posted by notyou at 10:54 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cripes, Jack Flash, your takes are valuable, but how much deeper in the tank can you be?
posted by notyou at 10:57 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It doesn't fucking MATTER who our parents oppressed or murdered or subjugated, we have no innate responsibility to the victims of our parents crimes.

So the day the 14th Amendment passes, you wash you hands and the past is forgotten? Slaves are on their own.
posted by JackFlash at 10:58 PM on September 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Given the whole KFC thing, maybe bucket of deplorables would have been more appropriate.
posted by mazola at 10:59 PM on September 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

how much deeper in the tank can you be?

I have literally no idea what that means.
posted by JackFlash at 11:04 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

and betrayed a nasty classism.

I think it's nasty classism to imply that bigotry is a defining characteristic of the lower classes. The bigots on parade this election -- the high shitlords of the alt-right, but also shameless bandwagoneering asshats like those at the VVS today -- do not have any fucking class-based excuse.
posted by holgate at 11:05 PM on September 9, 2016 [35 favorites]

So the day the 14th Amendment passes, you wash you hands and the past is forgotten?

Uh, no. Not remotely what I said.

Coming at it from a perspective of "I have to compensate for my parents crimes", sure, 14th amendment, you guys are golden now, go for it.

Which I object to, because it is a total abrogation of personal moral responsibility. Your need to "do good" should not be driven by having to compensate for what your ancestors have done -- because, by that measurement, as soon as you have "compensated" sufficiently, you are done.

Your need to do good should be because it is a moral imperative for all of us, regardless of what our ancestors did or did not do. My own ancestors were mostly eastern European immigrants fleeing extermination in the early part of the 20th century, so they had very little to do with anything related to the 14th amendment. It's still my responsibility to do what I can to help make sure the guy next to me has every right and opportunity that I do, even if my own ancestors never even came close to being "lucky" enough to own slaves.
posted by jammer at 11:08 PM on September 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seriously, do we have to pretend like Trump isn't riling up white supremacist elements to support him? He is, and it is deplorable, and yeah, if we/Clinton are too cowardly to call it what it is because of the motherfucking "optics" then yeah, we are screwed. Acting like that kind of racism is normal or tolerable or something we can ignore is what got us to this goddamn sorry state of affairs.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:13 PM on September 9, 2016 [31 favorites]

From the WaPo article shared by Secret Life of Gravy: Clinton’s relationship with the media is deeply flawed: She is overly paranoid about their intentions;

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you, as so many people in the media demonstrably are out to get Clinton. This is evident in the sheer tonnage of bullshit stories and investigations of already-debunked-nonsense that drown out whatever legitimate concerns there may be.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:16 PM on September 9, 2016 [44 favorites]

From a woman who graduated with the first coed class from West Point: What Trump Doesn't Understand About the Military.

She seems to confirm a lot of corb's reactions here, although she identifies as a Democrat.
posted by Superplin at 11:34 PM on September 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

My own ancestors were mostly eastern European immigrants fleeing extermination in the early part of the 20th century, so they had very little to do with anything related to the 14th amendment. It's still my responsibility to do what I can to help make sure the guy next to me has every right and opportunity that I do, even if my own ancestors never even came close to being "lucky" enough to own slaves.

But you still benefit (assuming you live in the U.S.) from a country plundered from its original inhabitants and built by slaves. We can do both, acknowledge and remedy the crimes of the past while also behaving as those predecessors should have in the first place.
posted by XMLicious at 11:44 PM on September 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you
Repeated for absolute truth.

What Trump Doesn't Understand About the Military.
What is "everything", Alex?

I never reached the Upper Middle Class level my father did (he was maybe top 25%, I made it to the Median), but he was one of the worst bigots I ever knew (and at least one of the other worst was a lot wealthier than he ever was). But I am so glad he did NOT live to see the Trump campaign and cheer it on. Bigot, racist and sexist are not class-based terms. The deplorables in the basket come from all over the economic spectrum. It's Trump who made his bigoted appeal a matter of class to appeal to the "we are the REAL victims" mindset.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:53 PM on September 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

But you still benefit (assuming you live in the U.S.) from a country plundered from its original inhabitants and built by slaves. We can do both, acknowledge and remedy the crimes of the past while also behaving as those predecessors should have in the first place.

Absolutely. Perhaps my prose failed me earlier, but all I meant was that the reason we fight for social justice of all sorts shouldn't be because our parents did wrong so now WE have to pay for it.

The reason we fight for social justice of all sorts -- including rectifying crimes of the past -- is because it is simply the right thing to do. Saying that you have an obligation to do it because of what your parents did lessens that.

(And here you can mentally insert the long diatribe I wrote on the degredation that quasi-karmic compulsions of any sort give to our simple humanism. It got way too off-topic)
posted by jammer at 12:06 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, the state of Oregon was settled as a racist utopia.

Snopes would rate this flat-out FALSE. Oregon was settled as the only farmland not requiring irrigation west of the Rockies (along with Western Washington). Hence the Oregon Trail, with snakebites etc. Someone put out a pamphlet at one point touting Oregon as a white paradise, which does not mean that's why settlers came.

Atom Eyes: The first exclusion law was passed in 1844 by the Provisional Government of Oregon, the temporary governing political structure set up by the first American settlers to reach the region over the Oregon Trail. This first law included a ban on slavery and a requirement that slaveowners free their slaves. African Americans who remained in Oregon after their freedom was granted, however, would be whip-lashed and expelled. If they were caught again in the Territory within six months, the punishment would be repeated.

Why did you leave out the very next line of your source?

This law was amended to substitute hard labor for whiplashing, and was repealed in 1845, before it could take effect.

posted by msalt at 12:14 AM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

I think it's nasty classism to imply that bigotry is a defining characteristic of the lower classes.

Hey now! I said it was upper class bigotry on display, not lower class! If yer gonna strawman this rodeo at least get it straight!
posted by notyou at 12:16 AM on September 10, 2016

Conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton, you say?
posted by Apocryphon at 12:21 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

One time during my impressionable years as a supple young altar boy, I made a salacious joke about the "second coming" of Jesus in CCD class. It got huge laughs. Just terrific. Our Catechism teacher and her rather large face mole were not amused by my blasphemous outburst or the ballyhoo of Adoration I received from my fellow chaste initiates. She pounced on the opportunity to turn our fleeting amusement into a real buzzkill of a teachable moment with a sermon on Temptation. What could be more Catholic than that?

After an hour of verbal tedium from the land of homily, we were dismissed. On my way out the door, Ms. Killjoy reminded me to reflect on what I had done over Easter weekend. She said, quite ominously, that if I didn't God might have to even things out. Whatever, I didn't give it one thought.

When Easter Sunday morning came around, I went to see what sweet treats awaited me in that wicker basket frame covered in fake plastic neon grass. Instead of candy and diabetes the Easter Bunny left me a basket of deplorables.

God works in mysterious ways. Or the Easter Bunny. Or my mother.
posted by guiseroom at 12:23 AM on September 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

I took the day off from the thread to play Skyrim....so I don't know if we're still laughing at our third-party supporting friends, but this has continued to make me chuckle. A friend of mine who is a die-hard Johnson voter and committed Libertarian posted an article with the headline "Clinton didn't know C stood for "Classified"" or whatever, so I commented to clarify, actually it doesn't, it stands for Confidential, which may or may not be classified and pointed out the text of the article actually contradicted the headline by admitting this. And she said, "Oh, actually I don't care, I was just upset about some stuff people were posting." And I've realized what happened. She went looking for something dumb Clinton had said (the article was several days old) because she was so upset people were making fun of Johnson's Aleppo comments.

So sorry, actual quotes by your candidate that make him sound like an idiot aren't negated by really biased and misleading headlines from 4th rate websites.

(I'm a Texan and I know WAY too many Libertarians. Yes, they're all white, straight, and well-off, why do you ask? It's essentially what I've seen happen to my friends when they age and would probably demographically be Republicans but can't tolerate the bigotry and religious mania of Republicans. Mostly I just nod and smile and let them have their protest votes.)
posted by threeturtles at 12:36 AM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Why did you leave out the very next line of your source?

Even beyond that sentence it mentions the following section of the Oregon Constitution:

No free negro, or mulatto, not residing in this State at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall come, reside, or be within this State, or hold any real estate, or make any contracts, or maintain any suit therein; and the Legislative Assembly shall provide by penal laws, for the removal, by public officers, of all such negroes, and mulattoes, and for their effectual exclusion from the State, and for the punishment of persons who shall bring them into the state, or employ, or harbor them.

Which Atom Eyes's link mentions remained in force through multiple efforts to remove it, all the way until 1926.

Also until 1970 the same section of the Constitution specified,

White foreigners who are, or may hereafter become residents of this State shall enjoy the same rights in respect to the possession, enjoyment, and descent of property as native born citizens. And the Legislative Assembly shall have power to restrain, and regulate the immigration to this State of persons not qualified to become citizens of the United States.

I don't know much about this issue besides what's I've heard mentioned here on MeFi, so I guess I'm open to arguments countering it, but in conjunction with these Constitutional provisions it will take one hell of a counter-argument to convince me that Oregon wasn't founded as a haven where white people would suffer a much lower likelihood of ever having to encounter black people compared to elsewhere in the country.
posted by XMLicious at 12:48 AM on September 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

Oregon is kinda bumming me out now, yeah, but the historical motives behind the clamor for the state of Jefferson make a bit more sense.
posted by notyou at 1:05 AM on September 10, 2016

Pat the Gnat discovers a broken chrysalis which becomes a butterfly with a damaged wing.

So...the broken chrysalis would be the mother, then? Sounds about right. "Oh that damaged husk? Yeah, just throw that away, no one needs it anymore."
posted by threeturtles at 1:46 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

In an election season where a deplorable person had said deplorable things about half a dozen or more groups of people in the hopes of courting deplorable voters and in doing so has hired a bushel of deplorable operatives, I really don't have an issue with future president Clinton calling them exactly what they are.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:28 AM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Anyone outraged by the deplorables comment wasn't going to vote Clinton anyway. Because of that, I personally like the comment because we'll spend 48 hours talking about just how racist and awful Trump, his campaign and his supporters are. Great, keep highlighting the things that turn off women and moderates.
posted by chris24 at 2:59 AM on September 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

I have to disagree. I really think that could have been phrased in a way that didn't dramatically reinforce the "liberal elitism" stereotype and thus harmonize with all of the propaganda designed to get people to stop thinking the moment they get a whiff of caricaturized left-of-centerness.

I have had success in getting my older conservative relatives to at least pause and think by putting it that accepting those ideas present as they are in Trumpismo and similar developments in European politics is "the end of the fight against fascism"—that their parents' generation laid down their lives to stop this kind of thing and many of the specific visions Trump has articulated for America, and you are betraying them and everyone who fought against fascism during the 20th century to support him. At the convention they did such a great job of showing that the kind of soaring patriotic rhetoric conservatives usually try to exploit doesn't have to mean what they want it to mean.

Instead, with this line, I think this has probably provided the sorts of people who would insist they aren't racist immediately before saying ridiculously racist things, and believe it, and everyone who's the same way with those other -isms, a new moniker to embrace that doesn't directly mention any of those kinds of bigotry. I think it will be really great branding for anything "not politically correct" and people will proudly call themselves a "deplorable" with the sense that it's like being referred to as a member of The Dirty Dozen or something.

I guess this sort of thing is inevitable with the context switching back and forth between speaking to the general public and speaking to the base, but it seems especially unfortunate to me. I hope that rather than doubling down on Clinton's particular articulation, her surrogates and everyone else will say "the things she was calling out are what we're all opposed to, and here's how a conservative would say it..."
posted by XMLicious at 4:35 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

It must have been turned over many times by her speechwriter(s), because it's fascinating that they went with "basket". I doubt Trump's "take their oil! Kill their families!" anti-Semitic turd brigade ever have cause to use the word basket unless it's immediately followed by "ball" (and I'll go out on a limb and suggest Trumpshirts aren't big bball fans.)

In Real Life the only time baskets come up are: laundry, fruit, muffin, wicker/craft, and maybe no-you-pick-it-up trash basket. Decidedly NotTrump words.

So if Bright Bart picks up the word and rolls it around as a grand insult, they're essentially dragging a loaded basket of NotTrump back to their nests to think on. Moderates and anyone who my appreciate laundry or fruit or muffins can see them circling the basket and muttering angrily.

Kind of genius.
posted by petebest at 4:56 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

petebest: It must have been turned over many times by her speechwriter(s), because it's fascinating that they went with "basket".

For me as a non-native speaker of English, it immediately made me think of the most commonly used means of transportation if one is traveling to hell.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:59 AM on September 10, 2016 [24 favorites]

Ah, yes. Most often that would be "bucket" which has a stonger TrumpAroma (tm).
posted by petebest at 5:02 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

jinx, Too-Ticky
"Where are we going Mr. Trump? And where did you get this handbasket?"
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:02 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

> Anyone outraged by the deplorables comment wasn't going to vote Clinton anyway.

That's precisely the problem with the comment. Some never-Trumpers are probably going to take this comment (especially as repeated by the media) as 'we don't want your votes', and that's not a message we want to send. We do want Republicans who reject Trump's racism and/or recognize it would be disaster for the country if he became president to vote for Clinton.

Whether the media will make this into a big deal or not, I don't know. If they do, it could hurt her. (That said, we're not going to get through a campaign without a candidate saying something dumb occasionally, and Clinton's mostly pretty gaffe-free.)
posted by nangar at 5:05 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I cannot believe that, with all the appalling things that Trump says on basically a daily basis, this is the thing we're fixating on. I mean, I can believe that, because the world sucks in appallingly predictable ways, but it sure is sad.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:10 AM on September 10, 2016 [40 favorites]

The idea was, I suspect, to remove cover for potential Trump voters who are on the fence. It leaves them the choice of associating with bigots and being called out as such, or choosing to stand apart from bigotry by either voting for someone else or not voting at all. I see nothing wrong with that since it is indeed ignorance and bigotry which is providing the main base of Trump support. Saying that plainly is to let it be known that it isn't acceptable, it isn't normal, and it shouldn't be ignored.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:13 AM on September 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

It is "basket" because the deplorables in question--especially the alt-right-- are "basket cases." As is Trump.
posted by carmicha at 5:17 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

CNN's 20-minute old story on the baskets:

Clinton's comments amount to startlingly blunt talk for a candidate that is usually measured in her assessment of the Republican nominee.

Yes, baskets are "startlingly blunt". *eyeroll/facepalm* (faceroll?)

I guess if the media don't have the guts to do their job, Hillary can do that for them too. Sad!
posted by petebest at 5:17 AM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

In Real Life the only time baskets come up are: laundry, fruit, muffin, wicker/craft, and maybe no-you-pick-it-up trash basket. Decidedly NotTrump words.

He'll also sound 'not Trump' when he says it. Think of him actually saying it over and over. Think of him saying the word deplorable. It's not in his regular vocabulary.

I think her saying this is very calculated. They're attempting to play the same game that Trump and the right does with associating a specific work in people's mind with a person or idea just through sheer repetition.

I also think it was put there with full knowledge of what the potential media stories will be but with the idea that it will open the conversation about whether it's true or not? Why would she say this? etc etc. Meanwhile Trump gets associated with 'deplorable' over and over and over. Then she gets to talk about it.

And there is also a good chance that Trump will latch onto it and do his ranting and railing thing. 'She says you're a basket of deplorable. Sad. I'm deplorable? Deplorable. She's deplorable!!' And he also has a good chance at using it wrong, saying something stupid and sounding dumb when he uses it.' Plus if he does latch he will be associating the word with himself over and over.
posted by Jalliah at 5:19 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Deplorable Donald. Alliteration for the win.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:22 AM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

It is "basket" because the deplorables in question--especially the alt-right-- are "basket cases."

possible, but I disagree that was the seekrit message. That would have been part of the discussion for using that phrase, but ultimately it doesn't work - and is too tone-deaf for her writers.
posted by petebest at 5:22 AM on September 10, 2016

In Real Life the only time baskets come up are: laundry, fruit, muffin, wicker/craft, and maybe no-you-pick-it-up trash basket. Decidedly NotTrump words.

You forgot puppies and kittens.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:24 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

> I cannot believe that, with all the appalling things that Trump says on basically a daily basis, this is the thing we're fixating on.

Because she's our candidate and we want her to win. Saying something that can easily be misinterpreted and might cost her some cross-over votes in swing states is not a good thing.
posted by nangar at 5:25 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe we can use a little "Silence of the Lambs" reference: Deplorable Donald tells you to "put the lotion in the basket"... or just "Putin the basket".

/having too much fun
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:28 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

puppies and kittens

I left them out because they're mostly rhetorical. I think the goal was to tie in to the "actual" baskets of daily life.
posted by petebest at 5:29 AM on September 10, 2016

Also, tiskets and taskets.
posted by Sublimity at 5:32 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Don't get Trump started on the tiskets. Not good. Not good folks, not good. When I'm president, tiskets will be gone! I'll fix . . them? Magically, per usual.
posted by petebest at 5:38 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think it will be really great branding for anything "not politically correct" and people will proudly call themselves a "deplorable" with the sense that it's like being referred to as a member of The Dirty Dozen or something.

Again, who of the people who proudly and loudly trot out their political incorrectness are voting for Clinton? Sure, there may be some, but not more than the moderates, women, etc. who will be more turned off by those people and that becoming an even more identified, more obnoxious part of the Trump campaign. Or who, when pushed by Clinton to decide which side do they stand on, choose right.

She got criticized by some for giving the Republican Party on out in the alt-right speech and not tying them all to Trump. She's still giving an out, but tightening the knot on the anchor. And she should be. This election is about rejecting this shit and it should be named and called out.
posted by chris24 at 5:46 AM on September 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

There will never not be a good moment to criticize Hillary Clinton. In the darkest timeline two dying men will be gnawing on the remains of one more fortunate than they in the irradiated wasteland that resulted from the Trump presidency. One of the men will say to the other "I'm just saying the optics of that email stuff looked bad, you know?"
posted by um at 5:52 AM on September 10, 2016 [104 favorites]

obviously something they would never have said

Which is why 'baskets' is a great choice. It links to manual labor which Trump's base wouldn't do but which is required to have the lives they live. Hits 'em right in the hamper.
posted by petebest at 5:53 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not much happening buzzwise, yet. CNN has the story, HuffPo re-ran that one, but nothing on NYT, WaPo, Politico, Msnbc . . It's on Bloomberg and the Sydney Mornng Herald, for some reason.
posted by petebest at 6:02 AM on September 10, 2016

Is there proof anyone outside out Metafilter gives a rip about this basket of deplorables thing? I'm only reading about it here.

Besides, it's a latinate word. No one cares. If she's said "a bunch of dcks" there would be a scandal.
posted by argybarg at 6:08 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Is there proof anyone outside out Metafilter gives a rip about this basket of deplorables thing?

Not yet. It's a potential gaffe that the media could pick up and take out of context. I hope they don't.
posted by nangar at 6:13 AM on September 10, 2016

This is silly.
posted by argybarg at 6:14 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

But silly is something MetaFilter DOES do well.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:19 AM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Is there proof anyone outside out Metafilter gives a rip about this basket of deplorables thing? I'm only reading about it here.

It's a potential gaffe that the media could pick up and take out of context. I hope they don't.

Politico has Trump demanding an apology already, which is hilarious. So it's out there. Twitter seems to be trying to ramp it up too. It's Saturday, they may take a little while to get the faux-outrage engine spun up.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:20 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

You will never find a more wretched h̶i̶v̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶s̶c̶u̶m̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶v̶i̶l̶l̶a̶i̶n̶y̶ basket of deplorables.
posted by chris24 at 6:22 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm sort of hoping she doubles down on that line of attack and starts calling Trump supporters out for the cowards they are. All those "phobes" she listed are a fear response, just as the desire to carry a gun everywhere is. It is, in effect, saying I'm afraid of my neighbors, of the people I see everyday. Coming from such allegedly tough guy types, showing they're really acting more like scared little boys could set up some nice cognitive dissonance, or if not that, then at least remove some further shine from their alleged patriotism.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:25 AM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Whatever then. If it's not this thing then the press will insist on some other. It's a true statement, and helpful and important and relatively kind compared to what she could say. So she should say it.
posted by argybarg at 6:30 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's hovering around the top of Google News right now, fwiw.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:31 AM on September 10, 2016

I guess I wish there were a better way to say, "these things that Trump says are deplorable, and if you believe them, you are hurting your fellow Americans."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:32 AM on September 10, 2016

A pretty good tweet storm on this from Liam Donovan starts here:

"I get the sense both sides are more than happy to litigate this flap, no matter how contrived the outrage."

It also has a tweet that includes video of her saying almost the exact thing in an interview, so this is a planned talking point.
posted by chris24 at 6:36 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's no "nattering nabobs of negativism", but it'll do.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:38 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

basket as in assortment.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 6:39 AM on September 10, 2016

What are we going to put our kittens in now?
posted by Artw at 6:40 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think it's a turn of phrase that Tim Kaine could've totally pulled off.
posted by klarck at 6:41 AM on September 10, 2016

Today:
Pence at Value Voters Summit, DC, 11:35 EDT
Kaine at HRC National Dinner, DC, (presumably around dinnertime)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:47 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

It also has a tweet that includes video of her saying almost the exact thing in an interview, so this is a planned talking point.

Ah, so it's really that she's saying you can put his supporters into two baskets, and one basket is for the deplorables (sexist/racist/xenophobic/homophobic/islamaphobic), but instead of saying "two" this time, she said half.

So I think that's completely fine, and like the first way she said it. Because then it doesn't assume a number or a percentage, just offers a couple of buckets.

Like saying "There are two baskets these crackers fall in. One basket has the Saltines, and one has the Ritz. Now you could have 17 Saltines in one basket and 2 Ritz in the other. That's different than saying "Half the crackers are Saltines". I like the first way she said it.
posted by cashman at 6:56 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

But I do agree that in follow-ups, this has us and presumably her, recounting all the deplorable things Trump supporters have said and done, often encouraged by Trump himself. Like, hey media, I did a speech where I laid out all the Alt-Right stuff and you guys did some he-said, she-said reporting, so lets go over this again.

I'd love it if they asked her about that, and she took a good 45 minutes to go down a littany of actions and things that have been said by Trump and his supporters, that are deplorable. Like actually 45 minutes.
posted by cashman at 6:59 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

What's bad about "basket of deplorables," I think, is the second- and third-order question about what it signals about the state of race as Clinton sees it, and how the idea of "Clinton panicking/flailing/desperate" planted in reporters' heads will impact already terrible press coverage. On the merits it seems hard to argue, and having said it I hope her surrogates have the good sense to litigate at length whether Republicans think the KKK is "deplorable" or not rather than back down.
posted by gerryblog at 7:01 AM on September 10, 2016

There Will Be Blood

The first time I heard someone yell “Hang that bitch!” was during a speech by Trump policy advisor Stephen Miller. I heard “hang that bitch” at least twice more during Trump’s speech, remarks that led to the crowd’s calls for Comey to be fired. Trump alleged that former President Bill Clinton had tampered with the FBI’s investigation, and that Hillary had used her position as secretary of state to line her pockets and singlehandedly destabilize the Middle East.

While Trump made the latter case, a man stood up and yelled, “Hang Hillary!”

“Yeah!” another shouted.

A smattering of applause.

What? "Lock Her Up" is evolving!

Congratulations! Your "Lock Her Up" evolved into "Hang That Bitch!"

That's a Pokemon reference I'm not being flippant
posted by Talez at 7:03 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Couple of comments deleted. Go ahead and repost with edit, and quonsar please don't press on obvious sore points.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:03 AM on September 10, 2016

AM Joy just started, and the show is reporting on Trump & Bondi.

I'm guessing it'll be mere seconds, if there's a Trump supporter involved, before they bring up 'deplorables' to try to get away from actual illegal activity.
posted by cashman at 7:03 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jesus, do lefties have to do endless involuted semiotic analysis over everything? She said a true thing, move along.
posted by argybarg at 7:05 AM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

"I got your basket, right here"

-Danton

Welcome to the Romney campaign, Hilliary.
What a desperate and vile person Clinton is. Lies, cheats.

She'll make a good president.
posted by clavdivs at 7:05 AM on September 10, 2016

Jesus, do lefties have to do endless involuted semiotic analysis over everything?

What do you mean by that?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:07 AM on September 10, 2016 [37 favorites]

Pence released 10 years of his taxes yesterday. I think we all knew that but it hadn't been formally put into the thread.

So Hillary has released decades of tax returns. Tim Kaine released his tax returns. Mike Pence released a decade of tax returns.

Donald Trump, the clock is still ticking.
posted by cashman at 7:12 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, she did say a untrue thing. It's way more than half.
- 81 percent say discrimination against whites is as big a problem as discrimination against minorities.
- 77 percent say it bothers them to come into contact with people who speak little or no English.
- 77 percent say discrimination against Christians in the U.S. is a major problem.
- 83 percent say the values of Islam are at odds with America’s values and way of life.
- 80 percent say immigrants constitute a burden on American society.
- 68% support a ban on Muslims.
- 60% think Obama is a Muslim.
- 20% think the slaves should not have been freed.
posted by chris24 at 7:12 AM on September 10, 2016 [122 favorites]

The New York Times is a Trump Paper.

On the front page right now there are three Trump stories. There are no Clinton stories.

On the NYT font page Trump is mentioned eight times. Clinton is mentioned three times.

On the Fox front page Trump is mentioned seven times. Clinton is mentioned six times.

Fox is reporting more on Hilary than the NYT is.

Trump is receiving billions of dollars of free advertising from the media.

That's why he will win. Billions of dollars of subsidy from his friends in the media.

Hold me. I'm scared.
posted by Combat Wombat at 7:38 AM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

> Politico has Trump demanding an apology already, which is hilarious. So it's out there. Twitter seems to be trying to ramp it up too.

Trump's demanded an apology, huh? That makes me think the remark was cleverer than I thought. That totally sets Clinton up to say something like 'I absolutely do not apologize! I think the racists and antisemites who are following Trump are deplorable, and I encourage all Republicans reject Trump's racism and realize he would be a disaster for this country to vote for me!' and make sure that response gets a lot attention.

(I've officially switched sides in the MeFi debate. It looks like she successfully baited him, and his response plays right into her hands. I don't think this was a gaffe anymore.)
posted by nangar at 7:40 AM on September 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

Seth Meyers cold reading Trump is pretty great. A Closer Look: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton Focus on National Security
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:43 AM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Behind the Lens: From Lake Tahoe to Laos

Pete Souza, Chief Official White House Photographer, linked a photo gallery of President Obama's trip. It's reminiscent of mefi's own Alan Taylor's work, and has some fantastic pictures of the president.

I think this is my new "but that's none of my business", Al Roker drink-stirring picture.
posted by cashman at 7:47 AM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

"The New York Times is a Trump Paper."

Sarah Kendzior's latest alleges as much. She's been fairly measured and was pretty much spot on with the AP debacle, making this more wild-eyed piece pretty frightening.
posted by klarck at 7:50 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump may have bought the Fourth Estate
Bought? He didn't put up a cent of his own money, but in the case of the New York Times specifically, I think years of the Trump Organization's real estate advertising has been a factor.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:00 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Daily Show - Matt Lauer Botches the Commander-In-Chief Forum
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:04 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

klarck's link above is a great article.

Initial over-promotion of Mr. Trump was likely based on a lust for ratings. Since roughly 2001, the U.S. media economy has been in free fall. He brought much-needed clicks and cash to a dying industry

One form of journalism is in its final throes. Coincidentally it's the one we watch, mostly.

From the article, Trump TV is Plan B, confirms Trump insider
posted by petebest at 8:12 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Seth Meyers cold reading Trump is pretty great. A Closer Look: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton Focus on National Security

Seth Meyers had been doing yeoman's work in these Closer Looks
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:13 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

> What are we going to put our kittens in now?

Canisters.

> So Hillary has released decades of tax returns. Tim Kaine released his tax returns. Mike Pence released a decade of tax returns.

Donald Trump, the clock is still ticking.

Perhaps Donald Trump will October Surprise himself by waiting until the most damaging possible moment to release his tax returns? (It's probably more likely that if we see them at all, it will be because someone leaked them, but I like the idea of Trump being so incompetent that he hands Hillary the thing she needs to finish him off. Trump deciding that October would be the perfect moment to release his tax returns is also Trump's-Razor-compatible.)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 8:15 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Late Show: Did Donald Trump Bribe the Florida Attorney General?

(That's not the worst part.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:15 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Nobody puts Baby in the canister!
posted by cashman at 8:19 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The New York Times is a Trump Paper.

Times hate has been one of the fascinating offshoots of this cycle. I'm looking at the front page now.

On the front page right now there are three Trump stories. There are no Clinton stories.

Let's look at the "stories" (a more precise word for journalism genre is useful here):
One is a critical op-ed on Trump's exploitation of consumer/market thinking.
Another is a critical op-ed about Trump's sexism.
The third is a news article about Giuliani and how his support of Trump is negatively influencing his own reputation.

Today's web front page coverage of Trump is 100% critical.

For comparison, the print front page plays Syria and North Korea much larger and the center-page story is the Ohio one about both Trump and Clinton's challenges there that I think has already been linked here. The negative Giuliani story also makes the print front page. Trump and Giuliani have a history of strong local relevance to the NYC audience, especially the print readership. Deep coverage of them doesn't surprise me that much given the NYT's regional saturation and its role as the Northeast's most important paper. Clinton's stint in the Senate is important, but her ties to NYC are not as complex and deep as either Trump's or Giuliani's.

This isn't all a quantification game (that's exactly the kind of thinking that gives rise to faux 'balance'). Content matters. Point of view matters. Trump is getting nothing but negative coverage in the Times. And to be fair, Clinton spent the week lying fairly low, except for the basket. Coming up, she's got debates, a TV appearance, and both Obamas are speaking on her behalf. I suspect a review of the entire post-nominations cycle will produce more numerical balance, but numbers aren't everything.
posted by Miko at 8:22 AM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

CNN, meanwhile, has hired Mr. Trump’s former campaign manager Corey Lewandowski as a paid commentator while he is still being paid by the Trump campaign. CNN is headed by Jeff Zucker, former CEO of NBC, which produced Mr. Trump’s reality-TV series The Apprentice. Today Mr. Zucker keeps a framed Trump tweet in his office.

The tweet in question compliments CNN. Morning Joe Hole says Zucker calls Trump personally to book him.

ZUCKER: DJ! It's Zuck! . . Hahaha, no, Zuck you! Hahaha. . . But really, I'm calling to get you in the Joe Hole on Tuesday? Yeah? Great, hey you got any more of that wonderful hatespeech for us? Something about the hajeebees or something? . . Wow. Fantastic! You're the king Donnie! . . Alright, love ya babe lets lunch.
posted by petebest at 8:24 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Okay so Joe's on MSNBC but it didn't work with AC 360)
posted by petebest at 8:26 AM on September 10, 2016

What are we going to put our kittens in now?

So that's how they got in those scanners.
posted by EarBucket at 8:26 AM on September 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

"The New York Times is a Trump Paper."

Basically everything the NYT prints about Trump is negative. All of their opinion pages are anti-Trump. They ran with Manafort's Russia ties, with the Khan flap, with every Trump flameout. Their editorial choices about Clinton pieces are questionable, yes, but really the obviously egegrious thing they've done as far as I can tell is not cover the Bondi-Trump scandal. That makes them a Trump mouthpiece?
posted by dis_integration at 8:27 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Today Mr. Zucker keeps a framed Trump tweet in his office.

A framed. Trump. Tweet.

How do I get back to dimension C-137?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:30 AM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

My first thought was that it's a terribly obscure dogwhistle for Narnia fans among Trump supporters (which there may be some of, given the movies a few years ago.) Is she hinting that if he takes office, Trump will speak the Deplorable Word?
posted by McCoy Pauley at 8:31 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Basically everything the NYT prints about Trump is negative.

To what extent does that matter?
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:32 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Basically everything the NYT prints about Trump is negative.

Check back in an hour.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:38 AM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Their editorial choices about Clinton pieces are questionable, yes, but really the obviously egegrious thing they've done as far as I can tell is not cover the Bondi-Trump scandal.

But they did. Instead of just running the same story as everyone else that day, they assigned reporters to do original reporting to add to the story the next day. They came up with a slew of times that Trump has run afoul of campaign finance laws. Their reporting shows two things, that Trump has no problem with pay for play, and that he's particularly bad at it. If he'd just hire a lobbyist and a PR firm he's probably save a whole lot of of money and trouble, but he's too much of a big man in the world to operate that way.
posted by peeedro at 8:40 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

To what extent does that matter?

The idea that all publicity is good is obviously wrong. But if it wasn't then why would we be upset about constant coverage of the emails? And then wouldn't it be a good thing not to run with the Bondi-Trump donation scandal?

They can't be in Trump's pocket if they only have bad things to say about him. Not even their usually abhorrent conservative columnists like him.

That Kendzior piece is like a mirror image of countless LIBERAL MEDIA BIAS stories pushed by the reactionary right. It has no evidence, only insinuation, and the implication that Trump is blackmailing media outlets. We're supposed to be better than that.

If Trump wins the voters who saw him in endless coverage of his digusting self and still voted for him are to blame, not the newspapers that keep printing big warning signs in all caps saying: THIS MAN IS UNFIT FOR OFFICE.
posted by dis_integration at 8:41 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

That (what peedro said re: Bondi) is true. i think people had a lot of trouble understanding what the difference is between breaking a story (was it the Tampa Bay Times that broke it initially? They have been killing it lately), re-reporting it with another paper as the source, and originally reporting it with new information.
posted by Miko at 8:42 AM on September 10, 2016

I took a quick peek at the #basketofdeplorables tag on Twitter (not recommended pre-coffee). Trump supporters are embracing it in a shroud of justification about being mothers, soldiers, never having asked for handouts - as if that negates being a racist/sexist/phobic. They're proud to be in that basket. It's surreal.

There's also talk of 'no candidate has ever insulted millions of Americans'. Interesting. I guess when Trump insults millions of Americans, it doesn't count because they aren't white guys.

Folks on the left are supporting her words and hoping she doesn't issue an apology. I hope she doesn't, either. The alt-right is dangerous. And someone needs to do the media's job. Here are 5 Twitter responses from Hillary supporters.
posted by erisfree at 8:46 AM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Orlando Sentinel.
posted by petebest at 8:46 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's also talk of 'no candidate has ever insulted millions of Americans'. Interesting. I guess when Trump insults millions of Americans, it doesn't count because they aren't white guys.

Mitt Romney called 47% of Americans moochers.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:48 AM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Washington post headline on Twitter asked if this was her 47% gaffe. The responses are 90% of some form of 'No. She's right'
posted by TwoWordReview at 8:53 AM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

The idea that all publicity is good is obviously wrong. But if it wasn't then why would we be upset about constant coverage of the emails? And then wouldn't it be a good thing not to run with the Bondi-Trump donation scandal?

It's not that all publicity is good, but that bad publicity doesn't harm Trump the way it harms Hillary. That doesn't mean that it's not worth trying to see if the media will finally overcome their bias toward a close race and their propensity to want to grade Trump on a curve by noting the obvious and well-documented pay-to-play bribery in the case of Bondi, but it does mean that there's sort of a "surely this..." sense of futility that develops when they seem to prefer nothingburgers involving the Clinton Foundation over stories of a major party Presidential candidate bribing a high-level state official.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:55 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

bad publicity doesn't harm Trump the way it harms Hillary

It really seems to have harmed him pretty grievously among the GOP supporters he has lost, mostly over his incendiary statements, as they were reported. This ran as a full-page graphic in the print edition last week. I do think the negative reporting has had a strong impact among those who would normally fall in line, and have every time in the past.
posted by Miko at 8:58 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here's a detailed/illuminating/scary article about the state of political campaigning today: How political consulting works—or doesn’t.

My takeaway: don't give money that'll be spent on TV ads, volunteer to help Get Out The Vote.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:59 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

You know, if there was ever one single instance of the "I'm sorry you were offended" faux-apology being appropriate...
posted by seyirci at 8:59 AM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Again, who of the people who proudly and loudly trot out their political incorrectness are voting for Clinton?

Thanks in part to one guy who had an entire show about it, it's a pretty widely-seeded notion that defying "political correctness" is an iconoclastic and daring marching-to-the-beat-of-your-own-drum pose to strike.

It's a repeatedly-highlighted phenomenon for example how hypersensitive white people can be to getting called racist, in some cases at least because they've got a ridiculously narrow view of what racism is: rather than seeing it as pervasive, omnipresent background radiation in a society that subsisted off of slavery and had state political parties with "White Supremacy" on their logo within living memory, a racist to them is an extremist character, a Klansman or Nazi.

I've had arguments about race with other white people where I'll ask, "What if black people are always denied mortgages or farm loans by a bank? At least that's unambiguously racism, right?" and get the sputtering response "Well... well, there should be a different word than 'racism'!" They're cognizant that this is completely unjust discrimination, but almost unbelievably simply have never thought about it much in relation to the definition of the term "racism".

Unfortunately I think there is a very large number of people like this, all of whom will also have been frequently propagandized to by conservatives and adherents of explicitly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and Islamophobic ideologies, who just aren't equipped to consistently articulate objections or receive and think about messages regarding related issues that are expressed in conventional 21st-century terminology. (Like the way questions are asked on a survey, for example.)

So I think that dismissing everyone who would respond negatively to this particular formulation is a mistake, and that there should be some speaking-the-language-of-your-interlocutor massaging and variation in the way the "basket of deplorables" message is communicated, going forward. (I definitely don't think she should issue any sort of apology.)

(And in general, there is no need to tolerate someone being hypersensitive about any contact with the word "racism", which is why I straight up say "that's racist" or "you sound racist when you say that" and go through the laborious process of proving in exactly what sense it's racist... but persuading people en masse to not accept Trump's thin disguise is a different context, and I don't think the numbers are small enough to justify leaving those voters on the table, when everyone in the world is counting on the American electorate to not hand the U.S. military, intelligence services, and other apparatus of government to fascists.)
posted by XMLicious at 9:00 AM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

What are we going to put our kittens in now?

If the kitten that I just got two weeks ago is anything to go by, they cannot actually be contained. Patience and a warm lap or pillow for it to nap on are your best bet for kitten wrangling. Once on said pillow/lap, they are an excellent salve for internet election rage.

Also they do the tiniest boops.
posted by strange chain at 9:03 AM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

because they've got a ridiculously narrow view of what racism is:

Man, I think our elementary school education on the topic must have consisted of a lot of repetition of "racism is bad" and no explanation of what racism IS.

It seems like people who aren't in the very top 1% of most extreme racists, people who aren't going straight into the racism hall of fame on the first ballot, those people insist that they aren't racists because, look, other people are way more racist than they are.
posted by puddledork at 9:04 AM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Here's why I'm worried about the "baskets." It's one thing for Hillary to directly and uncompromisingly call out her opponent's hate speech, or his incompetence, or his dishonesty, take your pick. It's quite another to dis American voters—if, of course, you are a Democrat—or even to be perceived as having dissed them, like Obama's "clinging to guns and religion" comment.

I fully expect the media to manufacture this into the New Clinton Thing. Doesn't matter whether it's the truth or not. Doesn't matter how many Americans agree with every word of what she said. Doesn't even matter whether she meant "a portion of Trump voters" or "half of Trump voters" or "most Trump voters" or whatever.

This will be an endlessly repeated soundbite. Like, really endlessly. And that, I fear, could impact even an election with seemingly-unmovable battle lines like this one. Survey Americans about whether or not Al Gore claimed to have invented the internet. I doubt the results would be encouraging.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:06 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

It really seems to have harmed him pretty grievously among the GOP supporters he has lost, mostly over his incendiary statements, as they were reported.

That's 110 Republicans, a handful of whom are household names or are currently serving in any official capacity. The rest are people with "former" in their titles with a sprinkling of governors and back-bench members of Congress. I'm not saying the list is insignificant, but that tiny minority of prominent Republicans is not at all consistent with the scale and scope of the problem, and says very little about how much it will harm him in November. Perhaps a handful of voters care about John McCain's feelings (and I'd bet even money he'll publicly switch back to Team Trump at the last minute) but does anyone really care about what Charlie Dent or Larry D. Thompson think?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:08 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Flippant brevity aside: She could start with that, and elaborate. And make it clear that she's speaking to those who implicitly support those snugly ensconced in said basket.

Haven't we despaired long enough about no one calling these things what they are? Aren't we still wowed, in this year of 2016, when a leading politician comes right out to explicitly say something like "I believe in science, climate change is real?" Haven't we had enough of living in a world in a time of deceit where telling the truth is, as George Orwell is supposed to have put it, a revolutionary act?)
posted by seyirci at 9:09 AM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm tired and almost out of coffee

Well, there's your problem. Grading papers with mere coffee?
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:13 AM on September 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Look, I'm sympathetic to the idea Clinton isn't getting the proper coverage, with so much space devoted to the email thing, but the reporting on Trump seems to essentially fit the demand for information, as might even be judged by the sheer volume of posts here on Metafilter talking about Trump and his supporters versus those about Clinton and her's. What's the ratio post DNC about 5 to 1? More?

Basically reportage stories have to be "he said, she said" pieces, giving the audience the facts of whatever event or, god help us all, tweet might have said. We see them all in these threads 'cause we're nutty about being up to date on every goddamn thing the buffoon is saying, but newspapers have to assume people aren't getting their information in big month long binges, so they have to annoyingly detail everything Trump is saying that's "new", and since everything Trump says is pretty much new, since he can't say the same thing three times in a row, they are going to report each change as something of interest. Now, they should be noting changes in what he says, the provable lies and any other factual deviance that might be present, but even doing that advantages Trump since facts have no bearing on what he says or his support. Clinton, in contrast, doesn't change her pitch all that much, so there isn't a lot "new" to report unless Trump says something about her.

Analysis pieces and editorials, of course, should be digging into Trump's campaign and person as deeply as they can and call out any issues they find, which is a considerable amount. Those pieces are being written, I've seen dozens and dozens of them myself, but they have seemingly little effect on his support and can barely keep up with the constant stream of garbage he spews. That in itself is so noteworthy that it too demands more attention than usual for a candidate because Trump is nothing like any other major candidate we've seen in recent memory. People want to read about Trump simply because of how frickin' bizarre this all is. Journalists can't ignore this just because it gives Trump more coverage.

Clinton, by running a more traditional and sane campaign is essentially ceding coverage to Trump as there isn't that much new to report from day to day as the campaign stays on its expected track. You can't keep running platform statements as news when they've already been covered. None of that is to say there can't and shouldn't be improvements, but that this election is so different than previous ones that journalists are put into something of a no win spot. People want coverage of all the oddness, just like they did with Palin, but most of them also want Trump to be put in his place. These things may be at odds with each other and I'm not sure there's a good way to get around that save by Clinton becoming more like Trump in her methods, which is far from ideal itself.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:14 AM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Basically reportage stories have to be "he said, she said" pieces, giving the audience the facts of whatever event or, god help us all, tweet might have said.

No! They have to report facts -- full stop. Those facts can include what the campaigns are saying, but when those things are obvious bald-faced lies, or contradictory, that is in and of itself a fact that should be reported. Instead, this whole "fact checker" role has evolved, where reporters are essentially doing what you say they're supposed to on page A1 ("he said, she said"), and then on page A23 we see that half of the things said on A1 are bullshit. How is that serving the public in any meaningful way?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:24 AM on September 10, 2016 [38 favorites]

I thought the collective term for a group of deplorables was "a Brexit". Did she misspeak?
posted by interrobang at 9:33 AM on September 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

I think her words were, if anything, not strong enough, and if it had only been something more eloquent than "basket of deplorables" it would be considered bold truth-telling, a stand and not a possible gaffe. Hopefully she stands behind her statement. The important thing to remember is, whatever Obama said about guns and religion, he won.

Ugh, following this election is driving me mad. I dreamed last night that I joined a Trump organization as a volunteer to monkeywrench by not doing any work, only to find that almost everyone else there was obviously doing the same thing; yet the world was no better for anything we did. I better step back.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:35 AM on September 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Top of my Google News feed: "Clinton's 'Deplorables' Comment Shows Disdain for Working People, Trump Camp Says"

I know what she means, but it's a vague term easily taken out of context and a voter's first impression is "is she talking about me?" I'm no speechwriter, but I would have seen red flags a mile away. C'mon, Hil, get yourself some writers that have spent the night south of M Street.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:35 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

it's a pretty widely-seeded notion that defying "political correctness" is an iconoclastic and daring marching-to-the-beat-of-your-own-drum pose to strike.

I also think there's a pretty clear difference between iconoclasts and people upset that they can't say ni**er anymore. And I think most people can see that. The fact the racists see themselves as the cool version doesn't really change how the rest of us see them.
posted by chris24 at 9:37 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think her words were, if anything, not strong enough, and if it had only been something more eloquent than "basket of deplorables" it would be considered bold truth-telling, a stand and not a possible gaffe.

Well, if it's the correct usage we're looking for, would you call it a "Confederacy of racists?" A "Wehrmacht of Nationalists?" She called a duck a duck, for chrissakes. It's only 'cause they think they're eagles that there's a problem here.
posted by Mooski at 9:39 AM on September 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

Calling white people out on their racism and/or privilege seems to be the real third rail in American politics. That said, this bucket thing seems to be a bit of a misstep; I would have just gone with something like "Trump may not be racist, but he sure does say a lot of racist things and people who are racists really seem to love him. Isn't that strange?"
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:42 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I know what she means, but it's a vague term easily taken out of context and a voter's first impression is "is she talking about me?" I'm no speechwriter, but I would have seen red flags a mile away.

cashman observed that "half" may have been inadvertently introduced on top of the way the point was originally written.
posted by XMLicious at 9:42 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The rest of the paragraph from Clinton gives pretty much anyone not looking to be offended not only an out, but a welcoming hand, just like she did on the alt-right speech.

"Now, some of those folks — they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."
posted by chris24 at 9:42 AM on September 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

* Also interesting that she namechecks Georgia and South Carolina and Texas. Expanding the battlefield.
posted by chris24 at 9:45 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

She needs to make a clarification emphasizing that she specifically separates the 'deplorables' from the working class... it's Trump who lumps them all together.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

cashman observed that "half" may have been inadvertently introduced on top of the way the point was originally written.

Inadvertent or not, 'half' is probably understating it. I do not see Trump signs and/or stickers where I do not also see confederate battle flags, blue line stickers or other clues that a person feels their privilege being threatened.
posted by Mooski at 9:47 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

some writers that have spent the night south of M Street.

K Street?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:52 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump and his pals are deplorable. This shouldn't be controversial.
posted by humanfont at 9:53 AM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's also talk of 'no candidate has ever insulted millions of Americans'. Interesting. I guess when Trump insults millions of Americans, it doesn't count because they aren't white guys.

Mitt Romney called 47% of Americans moochers

And the odd thing is that four years ago, that video still hadn't broken yet. This election; everything happens.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:55 AM on September 10, 2016

Meanwhile Andrew Kaczynski is pulling a 1999 Trump quote where he essentially claims that poor people shouldn't rise to higher office because they're probably morons and alludes to a genetic factor in their intelligence.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:58 AM on September 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Eric Trump Tweets Out Fake Photo Of Rally

Eric Trump's tweet with picture reads: Look at the #basketofdeplorables in Pensacola, Florida last night What a horrible statement! #Crooked Hillary

The picture he used is an overhead shot from a much more impressive rally in Dallas from a year ago. The Pensacola rally had only a fraction of people attending.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:58 AM on September 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

The fact that she's said it twice, once on TV, means, unlike the 47% comment, this is intentional. She's trying to use the Trump media strategy in her favor. Now every TV show has to have a debate about exactly how deplorable Trump and his supporters are.
posted by one_bean at 10:00 AM on September 10, 2016 [46 favorites]

Can you fucking imagine what it must be like to be Hillary Clinton in this election? You have spent practically your entire adult life working in politics. You have risen through the ranks to the point where you almost won the Democratic presidential nomination eight years ago, served as Secretary of State for four years and now you have finally won the chance to act as your party's standard bearer, the first woman to do so.

And now the only person that stands between you and the Presidency is proudly ignorant, racist, lazy, narcissistic buffoon who just kind of coasted into the Republican nomination by opening his fat mouth and spewing forth a bunch of hateful shit that caters to every known lowest denominator. He is not even remotely qualified to be the manager of an Arby's, much less President of the United States. But...BUT...this person is a famous, rich (-ish, or whatever) white man, and as such you are playing the game at the Grandmaster Chess setting, while Trump's difficulty levels are set at Snakes & Ladders. At the moment you are ahead, but just barely, and everything you say and do (or don't say or do) is examined under a microscope while Trump just skates around doing and saying whatever the fuck he feels like while people either cheer him on or give him the ol' "aw, boys will be boys" shrug. Many of the worst of his words and actions are tossed down the memory hole after less than a week while the media and your political opponents continue to pour over things you (allegedly in many cases) said or did over two decades ago.

It must be exhausting.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:01 AM on September 10, 2016 [164 favorites]

It was definitely intentional. Meetings were had. Suggestions were made. Strategizing occurred. Baskets of deplorable emerged. We'll see how it plays out.
posted by dis_integration at 10:01 AM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Someone dug up a Donald Trump tweet from two years ago, Sept. 26, 2014: I wonder if I run for PRESIDENT, will the haters and losers vote for me knowing that I will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN? I say they will!

It's alright to call them haters and losers, just don't call them deplorable.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:02 AM on September 10, 2016 [28 favorites]

It might be worth HRC going in front of the cameras to read out the paragraph chris24 quoted -- verbatim -- just to show that it's not something reserved for private fundraisers.
posted by holgate at 10:03 AM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

TPM: This Is Critical: Hillary Can't Back Down

"If there's nothing else we've learned from this cycle we should have learned the centrality of 'dominance' politics. Campaigns are performative displays of strength, resolve. To back down, apologize or cower would not only play into Trump's dominance politics routine, it would make Clinton look weak. It would deepen suspicions that she has no beliefs or will change them out of convenience. Far more importantly though, backing down would demoralize her supporters since it would amount to apologizing for or backing down from and delegitimizing what is in fact a central truth of the election."
posted by chris24 at 10:05 AM on September 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

Governor Mike Huckabee: Hillary shows contempt for people in her "basket". I think she blew a gasket. Her campaign headed for a casket.

I know he is irrelevant but lord that did make me laugh. Maybe he is angling for Poet Laureate?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:06 AM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump Slogs Through Another Pitch To The Religious Right

In a 2014 interview at his Mar-a-Lago estate, I asked him if he considered himself a religious person.

“I do,” he replied. “I’m Presbyterian.” Then he began talking about the chamber music that would be performed that evening in the ballroom. “You should go down and listen. It’s beautiful. Very talented people. I’ll walk down with you. It’s nice, they are very much into it. It’s very elegant.” He went on like this for a while until he’d finally exhausted the topic.

There was a beat of silence.

“And so…” Trump said, tentatively. “Here we sit.” He had forgotten my question.

“You were saying you are Presbyterian…” I tried.

“Right, yes,” Trump responded. “I’m Presbyterian.” And thus concluded Trump’s theological musings.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:12 AM on September 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

Yeah, a lot of people on Twitter are pointing out that if you look at the polling on Trump's supporters' racial attitude, Clinton is actually understating the percentage who belong in the "deplorable" basket. But yeah, if you read the quote in context, the point is that not all of Trump's supporters are hateful, and we need to work with the people who are supporting him because they feel like they're not being served by the status quo, not because they're bigots. That's not how it's being reported on social media, but maybe the Hillary folks will find a way to get the point across beyond the out-of-context phrase "basket of deplorables."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:13 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Card Cheat: I wish I could favorite this comment multiple times. I've been thinking the same thing off and on. Of course it's inevitable that the first woman would have to be twice as everything and face the harshest criticism to get there while her opponent skates by on everything. But how frustrating it must be. Relatedly of course is how this plays out in our individual lives where even when we succeed it can be exhausting because we see men around is succeeding with far less effort (or just more support.)
posted by R343L at 10:14 AM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

A-tisket, a-tasket,
A deplorably racist basket,
I wrote love letters to Putin
and on the way I dropped one.
I dropped one, I dropped one,
And on the way I dropped one.
And Hillary she picked it up
And put it in her pocket.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:16 AM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

> “I have to tell you,” he said in his speech Friday. “All across the nation, a lot of people said, ‘I wonder if Donald will get the evangelicals?’” He paused before delivering the punchline. “I got the evangelicals!” The crowd roared.

I don't even believe in God and I'm more of a Christian than a lot of these assholes.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:17 AM on September 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

WaPo: Pence fumbles attack on Clinton’s ‘deplorables’ gaffe

Pence spent about two minutes of his speech to the Values Voter Summit struggling to craft the right response.

"Hillary Clinton, in remarks that were made in New York City just last night, bear repeating," said Pence, rifling through a sheaf of notes. "And … let me see where someone put them here."As the audience of hundreds laughed gently in support, Pence made a joke at his own expense: "Take your time." Then he looked up and appeared to proceed without the quote in hand.

"Hillary Clinton said last night, at a big fundraiser in New York City, that, uh, the American people, the millions of Americans that are supporting my running mate, were described in the most deplorable of terms. It's extraordinary to think of it. She referred to those people as irredeemable."

He went on to talk about "the hard working folk" blah blah blah "they are not a basket of anything."

You could argue that they are a basket of voters or a basket of humans or a basket of molecular material. It's weird that he chose to focus on the "basket" part.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:23 AM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Kaine at HRC National Dinner, DC, (presumably around dinnertime)

Stage program starts at 630 so presumably later than that. I let my wife dragoon me into going with some friends who had extra tickets despite my continued ambivalence about the HRC and their shenanigans and trans-failings. I am looking forward to seeing Kaine, less so the arm-twisting to give money. We shall see if I can resist saying "ohhhhh sorry, I already gave that money to Tammy Duckworth instead. But say hi to Mark Kirk for me!"
posted by phearlez at 10:28 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

As Yoda once said, "Begun the Basketghazi has."
posted by peeedro at 10:30 AM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

WaPo: Spare me the phony outrage over Clinton’s ‘basket of deplorables’ remark

But if there is one group of people who should take their outrage about Clinton’s comments and stuff it in a very dark place, it’s Trump and his paid apologists, who unloaded in a series of tweets this morning. Trump’s campaign even put out a statement claiming that Clinton “revealed her true contempt for everyday Americans.”

Oh, please. Two things can be true at the same time: First, Clinton overgeneralized about what’s in the hearts and minds of Trump supporters. Second, her underlying characterization of the general nature of many of Trump’s campaign appeals — and her related observation that they really are successfully playing on the baser instincts of an untold number of Trump’s supporters — are 100 percent accurate.[...]

Clinton should not have overgeneralized about the other “half” of Trump’s supporters, and she may apologize for it or further clarify it at some point. She shouldn’t have called all these voters “deplorables.” But the underlying argument here — that Trump is running a bigoted campaign that tries to prey on legitimate grievances and bigotry alike by scapegoating minority groups — is inarguable, and the reality it identifies is far worse than Clinton’s broad-brush overreach was. If anything, “deplorable” is too mild a word for it.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:30 AM on September 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

That was kind of mixed messagey.
posted by petebest at 10:45 AM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Trump and his paid apologists, who unloaded in a series of tweets this morning.

What are the odds that their paychecks either never show up, or bounce?
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:50 AM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

That was kind of mixed messages.

Yup. Look, either you've been listening to Trump and you support him 'cause you believe what he does, or you haven't been listening to Trump and you support him 'cause he's not Hillary.

Racist and homophobic or intentionally ignorant. Them's your choices. Both could be called 'deplorable.'
posted by Mooski at 10:50 AM on September 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

[sorry for getting the quote wrong; autocorrect 'fixed' it and I didn't notice until the edit window passed.]
posted by Mooski at 10:57 AM on September 10, 2016

WaPo: Who will Hillary Clinton’s ‘basket of deplorables’ comment actually alienate?
posted by chris24 at 10:59 AM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

WaPo: Who will Hillary Clinton’s ‘basket of deplorables’ comment actually alienate?

Chuck Todd, Joe Scarborough and the NYT, who will make it into the story for the next infinity days until she apologizes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:04 AM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

They'd just be talking about mails otherwise.
posted by Artw at 11:09 AM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Kaine: Clinton's 'deplorables' characterization doesn’t merit an apology.
posted by chris24 at 11:10 AM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Remember kids: Clinton is trigger happy, unlike Trump who is the master of self-control. Trump will blow those small Iranian boats out of the water, unlike Clinton who would handle that sort of situation diplomatically.

George Orwell would be proud.
posted by Talez at 11:10 AM on September 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

Statement from Clinton: I regret the "half" but not the deplorable.
posted by Talez at 11:18 AM on September 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

angrycat, you could take the time to write your own response piece, then demand a response to the response in writing. Discuss all 3 pieces in class afterwards. It would be a valuable learning experience about making your arguments in writing. Might make the student think a little more deeply about the subject and realize they've been using lazy wishful thinking.

Yeah, it's impractical to do for every idiot, but once in a while it hits the whole big-picture point of critical thinking right on the money in an unforgettable way.
posted by ctmf at 11:24 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

And AP at it again:

BREAKING: Hillary Clinton says she regrets calling Trump supporters 'basket of deplorables'; says many are hard-working Americans.

Uh no. She didn't call all Trump supporters basket of deplorables and she said she regretted the half, not the deplorable.
posted by chris24 at 11:35 AM on September 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

@allanbrauer: When Clinton said #BasketOfDeplorables, every egg in that basket took to Twitter to prove her right.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 11:35 AM on September 10, 2016 [47 favorites]

Trump fan: I love Trump! Tells it like it fucking is! No more political correctness!

Clinton: Racists are bad.

Trump fan: Whhhaaaa? I'm overcome by the vapors! *faints onto couch*
posted by 0xFCAF at 11:39 AM on September 10, 2016 [68 favorites]

Given her apology, it was clearly an own goal, and an absolutely stupid one to take when your poll numbers are dropping. If she wants to win, she needs to be smarter than saying that shit at a Streisand fundraiser, ffs. It's like she said, "Please media, help Trump's campaign recontextualize my words as much as humanly possible."
posted by a lungful of dragon at 11:40 AM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's not clear at all from the apology but keep kissing that goose.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:43 AM on September 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

I was pissed about the apology, but now I realize that it's forcing the media to report that she said that only some of Trump's supporters were deplorables, which is not something they were talking about previously. So previously, it was "Hillary says that Trumps supporters are deplorable", and now it's "Hillary regrets giving a percentage but stands by the statement that some of Trump's supporters are deplorable," which is a more accurate description of what she said.

The whole thing is stupid, though. It is entirely clear that many of Trump's supporters are out and out bigots. We should be shouting that from the rooftops, because it is true, and it is horrifying.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:47 AM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

So I guess it's true what they say about bullies; they can dish it out, but they can't take it.
posted by valkane at 11:49 AM on September 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

I guess we want Clinton to be honest and authentic but not honest and authentic like that.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:55 AM on September 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

Trump supporters: Hillary is a brain-damaged, lying, bitch!
Hillary: Some Trump supporters are deplorable
Trump supporters: HOW DARE YOU!
posted by PenDevil at 11:56 AM on September 10, 2016 [55 favorites]

I guess we want Clinton to be honest and authentic but not honest and authentic like that.

It's too soon to know if this is a Romney-esque 47% moment, but it seems like a bad idea to give Trump's campaign any room to breathe.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:02 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Noooo. I go for a walk and she's half-apologized, not doubled down. How about: I regret saying "half'. It's more like 80%.
posted by dis_integration at 12:03 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Regret" is not a synonym for "apologize." Clinton very deliberately used the former, not latter. Incorrect to call this an apology.
posted by chris24 at 12:03 PM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

The problem with the "half" version is that with the huge number of people it applied to, it tells the rare non-deplorable Trump voter and some large number of Trump-leaners and undecideds that Hillary Clinton thinks that (at least) half the people they're related to and/or keep the company of are irredeemable deplorables.

Clinton's statement is great, but regardless of how the press treats this it seems to me that the biggest danger here is if some aspect of Clinton supporters responding to the issue furnishes Trump with a Swiss-Army-knife metaphor, a generic Trump supporter who Clinton and her supporters are believed to regard as morally inferior in every way, who Trump will cast as Everyman and become the voice of.

Then, getting anybody to identify with one small characteristic of the Everyman will be a gateway to identifying with the whole. (So I think I'm saying, the danger I'm worried about here is accidentally cohering and focusing the already-endemic tendency toward tribalism. Though maybe this is all obvious, it's already happened, and I'm just slow on the uptake.)
posted by XMLicious at 12:07 PM on September 10, 2016

"Regret" is not a synonym for "apologize." Clinton very deliberately used the former, not latter. Incorrect to call this an apology.

I think most people are able to make that distinction, but not interested in doing so. It's more fun to be a lying piece of shit if being so gives you an excuse to play the aggrieved without actually being aggrieved, so guess what the gameplan is?
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:07 PM on September 10, 2016

She should regret using basket is all, she should have said "stroller"
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:08 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Given her apology, it was clearly an own goal

Geez, I disagree. It wasn't an apology first of all, she regrets saying half but she doesn't apologize for anything. She's owned it because this is the conversation she wants the media to have, how Trump's rise to the top of the Republican party has been on a wave of filth unprecedented in our lifetimes. She has managed to bait the GOP message machine into amplifying her attack so now the media can talk about something other than the emails.
posted by peeedro at 12:09 PM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

"Basket of Deplorables" can be sung to the tune of "Alexander Hamilton". If you have a mind for some parody.
posted by Biblio at 12:09 PM on September 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

I think the comparison to Obama's 'cling' comment is apt. I remember panicking at the time that it was too confrontational and that it could coalesce enough cling-y voters to sink him.

Newly nervous Democrats should keep this in mind: it didn't.
posted by ipe at 12:10 PM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

half is an overstatement. it's likely closer to 30%. the rest are just good people who are drunk at their own pity party.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 12:13 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh look, it's the stupidest weekend ever. Good thing I've got like 4 more episodes of The Get Down to watch and I just got my sea moth in Subnautica so I can spend several hours exploring new biomes. I'll be back when we're done pretending Donald Trump doesn't blatantly pander to racists and xenophobes.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:16 PM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

This is all a nothing-seed to crystallize all the floating primordial clinton-nothing-criticism around for a while. Previously 'emails' was serving that purpose. I'm ok with the switch; I was tired of emails.
posted by ctmf at 12:19 PM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Basket of deplorables" is such odd phrasing that I picture HRC practicing diligently until it just comes out naturally whenever she wants to say "bunch of assholes." Like training yourself to substitute "fudge" for "fuck" when you're around children.

Clinton has a reputation for a potty mouth behind closed doors (one of the more charming things about her) so I hope that her first draft of this was "bag of dicks"
posted by dis_integration at 12:19 PM on September 10, 2016 [73 favorites]

Clinton has a reputation for a potty mouth behind closed doors

I did not know this. I like her even more now.
posted by chris24 at 12:24 PM on September 10, 2016 [30 favorites]

Seconding that! Do you have a source on the potty-mouth thing? I want to believe.
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:25 PM on September 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

half is an overstatement. it's likely closer to 30%.

Lets hope she gets to quantify the exact proportion of Nazis in the Trump campaign a lot.
posted by Artw at 12:26 PM on September 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Given that she's put this kind of idea out there a couple of times now: notice that there's been a *little* bit of recognition this week that HRC is held to a much, much higher standard than Trump. I say, let this single, fairly mildly worded statement start to generate some light and heat--and then use this issue to double down on that double standard critique, by really comparing it to Trump's many, specific, far reaching offensive comments. Hoist that bastard by his own petard.
posted by Sublimity at 12:26 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

In response to Trump tweeting this:

While Hillary said horrible things about my supporters, and while many of her supporters will never vote for me, I still respect them all!

Clinton tweeted:

Except for African Americans, Muslims, Latinos, immigrants, women, veterans—and any so-called "losers" or "dummies."

Fuck yeah! (I'm a potty mouth too.)
posted by chris24 at 12:29 PM on September 10, 2016 [88 favorites]

Trump just said Clinton could walk into this arena of 20,000, shoot somebody and not get prosecuted. And is that better or worse than Trump standing in the middle of 5th Avenue, shooting someone, and not losing a single vote?

Both? He didn't say what it would do for her chances as the next POTUS, like he didn't say anything about him getting locked up for life.

ChurchHatesTucker: Seth Meyers cold reading Trump is pretty great. A Closer Look: Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton Focus on National Security

I think all Trump quotes should be read by robotic voices, with the text of the quote on the screen. We're still quoting you, but pointing out that you are saying nothing.

Also, Seth's segment caught that Donald said "if Putin says something nice about me, I'll say something nice about him." To which Seth replied, "So all ISIS has to do is to compliment you?"
posted by filthy light thief at 12:29 PM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Tentative source

While President Bill Clinton and first lady Hillary Clinton were not known to have cursed publicly, numerous accounts from White House insiders over the years tell a different story -- that both often using the f-word in conversations and arguments inside and outside the White House.

I can't find anything better than that at the moment. It's something I'd heard, but most searches for it turn up right-wing fanfic about her cursing at innocent underlings, or ball breaking Bill or Obama. But I like to think that she's as dirty-mouthed as Selina Meyer.
posted by dis_integration at 12:30 PM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Lookups for 'deplorable' spike following comments at a New York fund-raiser
posted by miorita at 12:42 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Governor Mike Huckabee: Hillary shows contempt for people in her "basket". I think she blew a gasket. Her campaign headed for a casket.

I know he is irrelevant but lord that did make me laugh. Maybe he is angling for Poet Laureate?

Nah, he's reppin' his new mixtape: Mix Master Mike Sting-like-a-Bee's Ill Rhymes: "I'm a poet, and I didn't know it, yo."

[fake]
posted by filthy light thief at 1:01 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is the Clinton potty mouth story I'd heard, which I love:

But there was a problem with the thirtieth. Someone mentioned that Saturday, April 30, was the night of the annual White House Correspondents' Association dinner - where the president was expected to speak. How would it look, they asked, if the president was at a black-tie dinner joking around with a bunch of reporters in the beautiful Hilton Hotel ballroom in Washington, D.C., while a group of Americans were dying on a failed mission in Pakistan? Secretary of State Hillary Clinton shot down that concern with a well-placed response. "Fuck the White House Correspondents' dinner," she said. "Heaven help us if we ever make an important operational decision like this based on some political event."

From The Great War of Our Time: The CIA's Against Terrorism From Al Qaeda to ISIS, per dailykos
posted by marshmallow peep at 1:09 PM on September 10, 2016 [53 favorites]

Nah, he's reppin' his new mixtape: Mix Master Mike Sting-like-a-Bee's Ill Rhymes: "I'm a poet, and I didn't know it, yo."

he's such a huccboi
posted by jason_steakums at 1:18 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Clinton has a reputation for a potty mouth behind closed doors (one of the more charming things about her) so I hope that her first draft of this was "bag of dicks"
posted by dis_integration at 12:19 PM on September 10 [19 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

Instant head cannon
posted by schadenfrau at 1:36 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

That not-apology was great. This really is looking like a deliberate, weaponized "gaffe"
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:37 PM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

I have a clear memory of Bill Clinton's inauguration day or some day soon after. The Clintons were doing a receiving line at the White House, and it was overwhelmed. There was an enormous line. At some point, someone cut off the line, and Hillary said - on the mic - "we just screwed all those people out there." It was reported on the news, and I recall my parents thinking it was great. People like them, Boomers, who talked like them and cared about the people on the line, were in the White House. At the time it was quite a flap, but then, "suck" was a bad word too.

Unbelieveably, I actually found mention of this in a 1993 article, Mrs Wonk Goes to Washington:

From her first moments in the White House, Clinton's words and deeds made clear that she would be radically different from the First Ladies who had preceded her. On the day after the inauguration, Bill Clinton invited the public to come to the White House to shake hands. Standing by her husband in the receiving line, Hillary noticed that hundreds of ticket-holders were never going to make it through the gates. Keeping her smile, she turned to the President. "We just screwed all those people," she said under her breath to him--and, inadvertently, to a nearby microphone--before ordering an aide to work on the problem.

That expression alone, so distinctly un-First Ladylike, would have been enough to mark Clinton as different.

posted by Miko at 1:40 PM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

An interesting tweetstorm by New Yorker writer James Surowiecki starts here.

Some highlights:

9. The crucial thing to recognize is that racism is a political view, just like calling for lower taxes or a smaller welfare state is.

10. Keeping the U.S. a white, male dominated country matters as much to many Trump supporters as cutting taxes does to traditional GOPers.
posted by chris24 at 1:46 PM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

The New York Times is sick of you peons emailing in to tell them that Trump is a fucking loon and to stop devoting massive amounts of column inches to emails and wild goose chases.

This, of course, is not a typical election. Trump is so erratic and his comments so inflammatory that many in his own party have rejected him. But it is also true that these are two presidential candidates with the lowest approval ratings in history. Neither is very trusted or liked. Which means if ever there was a time to shine light in all directions, this is it.

If Trump is unequivocally more flawed than his opponent, that should be plenty evident to the voting public come November. But it should be evident from the kinds of facts that bold and dogged reporting unearths, not from journalists being encouraged to impose their own values to tip the scale.

Yo dawg I heard you like false equivalency so we put false equivalency in an essay about false equivalency so you can falsely equivalate while you read about false equivalency!
posted by Talez at 1:51 PM on September 10, 2016 [83 favorites]

White supremacist organizing is at a minimum conspiracy to deprive people of their constitutional rights. It should no more be protected by the First Amendment than organizing a drug-smuggling ring is.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:55 PM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Shorter NYT: Don't ask us to stop pissing in the pool -- the huge amount of urine in there clearly indicates it's actually a latrine.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:56 PM on September 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

Neither is very trusted or liked. Which means if ever there was a time to shine light in all directions, this is it.

'We've printed bullshit about her to erode trust in her so we can justify more bullshit about her.'
posted by chris24 at 1:57 PM on September 10, 2016 [25 favorites]

Remember where she made the "deplorable" statement; at an LGBT for Hillary fundraiser where the emphasis was in rallying her troops. And no doubt it succeeded. With the necessary emphasis on energizing supporters to actually, you know, vote for her, it matters none if the "deplorables" are butt-hurt, because they're going to vote deplorably no matter what she says. (Part of me wishes she'd used the word "despicable" with its cartoony connotations of Minions and Daffy Duck)

And I might put Trump voters into three baskets, the Deplorables, the "Pity Partiers" (as quonsar eloquently put it), and the "Totally Gullible", a demographic group Deplorable Donald has always appealed to (and profited from). That last group is the only one that can be reached and potentially shamed adequately to get out of their basket.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:58 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

one_bean: The fact that she's said it twice, once on TV, means, unlike the 47% comment, this is intentional.

Let's look back at Romney's 47%, "best quote of the year"

There are 47% of the people who will vote for the president no matter what ... who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims. ... These are people who pay no income tax. ... and so my job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives...

Why Mitt Romney’s “47 percent” comment was so bad (WaPo, 2013)

... it played directly into the stereotype of Romney as an out-of-touch rich guy that President Obama and his campaign were playing up. And, that's true.

But, there's more there when it comes to why the comments were so incredibly damaging. The truly terrible thing for Romney was that the remarks not only came directly out of Romney's mouth but were also documented on video.

In an age in which average people assume all political ads are mostly (or totally) false, there are very few things that cut through the clutter. A candidate saying something as controversial as 47 percent of the country is dependent on the government is the sort of thing that makes even almost anyone turn and look at the TV. And that's the whole ballgame for a political campaign.

And more than that, it was a candid video from an expensive fund-raising dinner, further cementing the fact that Romney was a two-faced richy-rich when it came to being a politician for the people. If not for an unauthorized recording, the public would have never heard these words that Romney said to his big-ticket supporters. In other words, this was a really honest Romney, or at least one who was courting major supporters, who he thought would buy into this message.

And then there's the message: almost half the country will never support me, and that's because they get paid by the government to do nothing.

In comparison, Hillary was talking in public, and talked about people's beliefs, not their actions:

“You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump’s supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. Right?” Clinton said. “The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic—you name it. And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up.”

She said the other half of Trump’s supporters “feel that the government has let them down” and are “desperate for change.”

So Romney said that 47% of voters are leeches on the American taxpayers, who only vote to keep their way of life (I'm not going off on the tangent of major companies that do exactly this, including paying no taxes), while Clinton called out people fearful hate-mongers, but didn't say "it's not my job to care about them." Instead, she said there are also people who are desperate for change and frustrated with the current system, and she supports them.

Talez: Statement from Clinton: I regret the "half" but not the deplorable.

Here's the statement in text form, which shifts the focus onto Trump himself, and re-focused the deplorable people to a smaller group:

It’s deplorable that Trump has built his campaign largely on prejudice and paranoia and given a national platform to hateful views and voices, including by retweeting fringe bigots with a few dozen followers and spreading their message to 11 million people.

Then she pivots to pomposity and empathy:

I also meant what I said last night about empathy, and the very real challenges we face as a country where so many people have been left out and left behind. As I said, many of Trump’s supporters are hard-working Americans who just don’t feel like the economy or our political system are working for them.

Yeah, this is no 47% line, said in secret to select rich folks. This is calling out the fear-mongering part of Trump's campaign, and offering a hand to people who want something different what they are getting currently.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:59 PM on September 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

On balance I am glad she is hitting on this point; we should keep calling out the racism and xenophobia of the Trump campaign. But the "half" party was a mistake as it gives opponents something to hang their hat on. Stick with "there is a core of support for Donald Trump comprised of..." which doesn't provide nearly as much of a stick to hit her with.

I'm sure the media will move on from this tomorrow as they do with the dozens of statements they've harped on from Trump. Right? Right?

The first debate can't come soon enough.
posted by Justinian at 2:04 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I bet ten bucks this basket deal is completely forgotten in some other insane shit by the middle of the week.

I think it's what the kids call, I believe, "Nothing on a burger"
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:07 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I bet ten bucks this basket deal is completely forgotten in some other insane shit by the middle of the week.

I'll take that bet. There are only so many hooks for them to hang their hats on; they're not going to let one go to waste.
posted by Mooski at 2:11 PM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Gee, I wonder how big an overlap there is between the "basket of deplorables" and Romney's 47%. (That may have been Romney's biggest mistake in his statement; there are plenty among the 'dependent class' whose xenophobia make them natural Republicans... the "keep Government out of my Social Security" crowd)
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:14 PM on September 10, 2016

Oh man, that nytimes thing..."journalists being encouraged to impose their own values"...

"Well, I kind of *like* humanity and tend to root for the future of the planet, but best to avoid any bias here..."
posted by uosuaq at 2:22 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sean Spicer, RNC communications director: .@realDonaldTrump Statement on @HillaryClinton calling 40+ million Americans "deportables" http://bit.ly/2cu4M7o

Er...Freudian slip?

And we have another mislabeled picture. This one purportedly showing Clinton and her very tiny rally. Andrew Kaczynski:This is a picture of Michigan Sen. Debbie Stabenow, not Clinton

And Paul Ryan-- who has been noticeably absent for 3 weeks while Trump said all sorts of crazy shit-- was finally around to tweet: Hillary Clinton should be ashamed of her comments.

Funny how he never seems to find the time to admonish Trump
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:24 PM on September 10, 2016 [24 favorites]

Here's a candidate for next week's story:

This is the 5th time a charity told me they didn't get $ that @realDonaldTrump's Fdn told the IRS it had given them.

Kinds sounds like straight-up tax fraud. Fahrenthold is an Energizer bunny!
posted by Dashy at 2:27 PM on September 10, 2016 [28 favorites]

Meanwhile, Trump was pictured at Phyllis Schlafly's funeral with a grin and a big thumb's up. I'm sure Phyllis would have wanted him to get a good photo-op in on the campaign trail.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:30 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do you think Trump even knew who Schlafly was before a handler told him 3 days ago?
posted by PenDevil at 2:34 PM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Do you think Trump even knew who Schlafly was before a handler told him 3 days ago?

Of course he did. If not for Schlafly he might have had to bribe Pam Bondi $35K instead of $25K to keep parity with bribing Greg Abbott.
posted by Talez at 2:36 PM on September 10, 2016 [34 favorites]

I was thinking the same thing, PenDevil.
posted by Yowser at 2:36 PM on September 10, 2016

Schlafly was a horrible person, so she probably would have been down with her funeral being a Trump campaign event
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:39 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Journalist and 2014 Harvard University Nieman fellow Isaac Bailey: Clinton was right: Trump HAS lifted up the deplorable. Excerpt:

"It is deplorable to undermine the credibility of a federal judge based on his Mexican heritage.
It is deplorable to demean a Gold Star family and propose to ban all Muslims from entering the United States.
It is deplorable for a candidate for president of a major party to kick off his campaign by labeling most Mexicans as rapists and murderers.
It is deplorable when the Justice Department feels it has to sue you a second time for racial discrimination because you didn't get the hint the first time. [...]

It is deplorable that the list of deplorable things done and said by the Republican nominee for president is so long it's hard and exhausting to try to remember them all.
It is deplorable that a sizable percentage of his supporters love him because of those awful things -- deplorable that they now feel it is OK to express those views in public. That is not excusable -- no matter how much economic pain they've contended with these past few decades.

But what's most deplorable is the knee-jerk pushback against anyone who dares point out this reality, as though exposing the deplorable is worse than the deplorable things themselves. Maybe the best way to avoid being labeled deplorable is to stop doing and saying and standing for deplorable things?"

And he just goes on, and on. It's good.
posted by cashman at 2:42 PM on September 10, 2016 [67 favorites]

I'm sure that, if the roles were reversed, Schlafly would've done the same.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:43 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wish I could appeal to the better angels of my nature and hold out some hope for some of the "deplorables" in Trump's basket of supporters, but I really can't. Just the other night I watched a NOVA doc on radicalization and they interviewed a guy who was de-radicalized by an imam who pointed out that he was misreading the jihad portions of the Quran. This guy is now an expert in de-radicalization and he said that it's extremely risky to try to persuade a radical out of his or her views--any misstep will result in what might be a lifetime of digging in deeper. I think of extreme racism, xenophobia, homophobia, anti-semitism as a kind of radicalization. Evidence means nothing to these folks, and the cauldrons they boil their resentments in seem to never run out of fuel.
posted by xyzzy at 2:43 PM on September 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

Yeah I'm pretty sure he didn't. Schlafly was old school-- she didn't go out of her way to entertain so she didn't get booked for TV shows like Ann Coulter. She was just a mover and shaker behind the scenes and once in awhile we would hear some statement like "Sex education classes are like in-home sales parties for abortions." or "Men should stop treating feminists like ladies, and instead treat them like the men they say they want to be."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:43 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

deplorable that they now feel it is OK to express those views in public

Emirjeta Xhelili, 32, hurled Islamophobic insults as she pounced on the two victims near her Bath Beach home about 1:30 p.m. Thursday, authorities said.

“Get the f--k out of here,” Xhelili, 32, allegedly yelled at the pair, according to prosecutors. “Get the f--k out of America, b-----s.”

As she punched the 23-year-old women in the face and kicked them in their legs, she tried to rip the traditional Muslim veils off their heads at Bay 20th St. and Cropsey Aves., police sources said.

“This is America — you shouldn’t be different from us,” she yelled, prosecutors said.

...

Xhelili has no previous arrests and works at Noi Due, a kosher Italian restaurant on the Upper West Side, her lawyer said. Her vile social media musings include several bizarre tweets cheering the candidacy of Donald Trump.

No deplorables here, no sir. She's not racist just enthusiastic about the Trump campaign!

Welcome to Trump's America.
posted by Talez at 2:49 PM on September 10, 2016 [47 favorites]

I suspect Trump would've heard of Schlafley when she endorsed him in the primaries and then her political org went apeshit in revolt
posted by dis_integration at 2:50 PM on September 10, 2016

I suspect Trump would've heard of Schlafley when she endorsed him in the primaries...

She wouldn't be the only piece of shit to endorse him that he (claims to have) never heard of and refuses to disavow.
posted by Etrigan at 2:55 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

That not-apology was great. This really is looking like a deliberate, weaponized "gaffe"

Tweren't no gaffe. That was some straight-up-the-middle smashmouth there. Good on yer HFA!
posted by petebest at 2:58 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Somebody needs to remind the NYT Public Editor of Deplorable Donald's plans to change the Libel laws, and consider him a direct threat to their 'journalism'. But then, as long as they keep getting real estate ads for the Trump Buildings, it's cool, yeah?
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:00 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

JFC, that NYT article.

What’s needed most is forceful, honest reporting — as The Times has produced about conflicts circling the foundation; and as The Washington Post did this past week in surfacing Trump’s violation of tax laws when he made a $25,000 political contribution to a campaign group connected to Florida’s attorney general as her office was investigating Trump University.

The only "conflict" surrounding the Clinton Foundation is the press failing to find anything wrong with the Clinton Foundation. And the counter example is a story by another paper.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:18 PM on September 10, 2016 [33 favorites]

Meanwhile, Trump was pictured at Phyllis Schlafly's funeral with a grin and a big thumb's up.

I predict that one of his 9/11 tweets tomorrow will be a picture of him giving thumbs ups (just like his Olympics tweet) because nothing speaks to our shared patriotism and sacrifice like The Donald standing in front of a flag.
posted by peeedro at 3:19 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Roger Stone has tweeted a picture entitled "I'm so proud to be one of the Deplorables" which is a poster from the movie The Expendables. The heads have been replaced with Trump, Carson, Christie, Guiliani, oh...and yes...Pepe

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:57 PM on September 10 [1 favorite +] [!]

This is exactly it. This is why "deplorables" is such brilliant bait. It's grandmotherly enough that it doesn't sound like a real insult, but it's enough to get the opposition to double down by loudly embracing their deplorableness.

Like Hillary was rude, but these guys are proud of being racist and mean. She's betting the remaining 10% shake their heads at the former (but whatever, they already know they don't like her) while they are *horrified by the latter. It's a pawn sacrifice.

Let's see if it works.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:31 PM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Is it beyond creepy that he was smiling in the funeral picture and NOT in the Olympics picture? It still boggles my mind that ANYBODY can consider him "charismatic".
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:32 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Me: Why did you leave out the very next line of your source?

XmLicious: Even beyond that sentence it mentions the following section of the Oregon Constitution:
"No free negro, or mulatto, not residing in this State at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall come, reside, or be within this State,"
Which Atom Eyes's link mentions remained in force through multiple efforts to remove it, all the way until 1926.

Again with the cherry picking. The same source notes that this constitutional provision was never implemented and quickly ruled unconstitutional. In fact, your source notes that the "efforts to remove it" were led by the Black residents of Oregon, who obviously were able to move into and live in the state.

Here is the complete history, per Atom Eye's link:
1) First exclusion law passed in 1844, amended, repealed in 1845 before taking effect.
2) 1849, 2nd law "allowed black residents already in Oregon to remain, but banned further African American in-migration. ... This law was in effect until 1854, when, in a general housekeeping act, it was repealed." (perhaps accidentally)
3) "In 1857, when a constitution was written in anticipation of statehood, a third exclusion clause was inserted, prohibiting new in-migration of African Americans, as well as making illegal their ownership of real estate and entering into contracts. They were also denied the right to sue in court. ... Although enabling legislation was never passed and the clause was voided by the 14th and 15th Amendments passed after the Civil War, the ban remained a part of Oregon’s constitution until it was finally repealed in 1927."

I don't know much about this issue besides what's I've heard mentioned here on MeFi, so I guess I'm open to arguments countering it, but in conjunction with these Constitutional provisions it will take one hell of a counter-argument to convince me that Oregon wasn't founded as a haven where white people would suffer a much lower likelihood of ever having to encounter black people compared to elsewhere in the country.

Oregon's laws were set up immediately before the Civil War, with a mix of motives including racism, staying out of the impending war, avoiding racial conflict, and response to economic turmoil. (California passed various laws excluding the Chinese during this same era.)

It's certainly nothing to be proud of, but there is a huge leap from the reality described (on a site called BlackPast.org) to your claim it was "founded as a haven for white people." Do you have any evidence for such a leap in logic?
posted by msalt at 3:32 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Oregon thing feels a little like a derail about splitting hairs.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:37 PM on September 10, 2016 [24 favorites]

There's more on the Oregon thing here; better not to drive this thread totally off the rails in that direction.
posted by LobsterMitten at 3:37 PM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Governor Mike Huckabee: Hillary shows contempt for people in her "basket". I think she blew a gasket. Her campaign headed for a casket.

I know he is irrelevant but lord that did make me laugh. Maybe he is angling for Poet Laureate?

That's some Southern Baptist clean hiphoprap relatin' to the youth ministry.
posted by maggieb at 3:39 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tom Ridge, former PA gov and Bush homeland security chief, just told @smerconish that PA isn't in play for Trump.

Not that it wasn't polling this way, but interesting to see a R say so. And if so, game over.
posted by chris24 at 3:40 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

TA-NEHISI COATES - Hillary Clinton Was Politically Incorrect, but She Wasn't Wrong About Trump's Supporters

"Clinton said half of Donald Trump’s supporters were prejudiced. If anything, her numbers are too low."
posted by chris24 at 3:42 PM on September 10, 2016 [30 favorites]

AM Joy Presses Trump Advisor on Putin Relationship | MSNBC

Joy is crushing it. I'm still mystified that I don't have MSNBC. My cable company owns them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:44 PM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Your HRC gala dispatch: I am enjoying the merch table. https://imgur.com/a/q5ZL6

I am less enjoying all the Wells Fargo logos, as they are big sponsors. Though I do appreciate the dichotomy of that and Tim "Countrywide" Kaine speaking.
posted by phearlez at 3:45 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

WaPo: How Donald Trump retooled his charity to spend other people’s money

The Donald J. Trump Foundation is not like other charities. An investigation of the foundation — including examinations of 17 years of tax filings and interviews with more than 200 individuals or groups listed as donors or beneficiaries — found that it collects and spends money in a very unusual manner.

For one thing, nearly all of its money comes from people other than Trump. In tax records, the last gift from Trump was in 2008. Since then, all of the donations have been other people’s money — an arrangement that experts say is almost unheard of for a family foundation.

Trump then takes that money and generally does with it as he pleases. In many cases, he passes it on to other charities, which often are under the impression that it is Trump’s own money.

In two cases, he has used money from his charity to buy himself a gift. In one of those cases — not previously reported — Trump spent $20,000 of money earmarked for charitable purposes to buy a six-foot-tall painting of himself.

posted by tonycpsu at 3:45 PM on September 10, 2016 [60 favorites]

I don't think it was posted here yet, Lindsey Graham's response to Trump's praise of Putin was lovely:

“Other than destroying every instrument of democracy in his own country, having opposition people killed, dismembering neighbors through military force and being the benefactor of the butcher of Damascus, he’s a good guy,” quipped Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) of Putin.

Graham, a former presidential candidate, has often sparred with Trump and is one of his most vocal critics. “This calculation by Trump unnerves me to my core.”

posted by peeedro at 3:49 PM on September 10, 2016 [37 favorites]

A six-foot-tall painting of himself.
I mean.
We know this guy loves dictators, but this whole story is getting a little too cartoonishly on the nose. We need to send it back for rewrites; no one will believe this version.
posted by Superplin at 3:49 PM on September 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

From That Fine Article:: False balance, sometimes called “false equivalency,” refers disparagingly to the practice of journalists who, in their zeal to be fair, present each side of a debate as equally credible, even when the factual evidence is stacked heavily on one side.

First off, "False balance"? Okay this isn't going to go well is it.

Secondly, "zeal to be fair" is painful to read, but intentionally misreporting factual evidence is not fair. *deep breath*. Proceed, governor.

The problem with false balance doctrine is that it masquerades as rational thinking. What the critics really want is for journalists to apply their own moral and ideological judgments to the candidates..

No, the latter is masquerading as rational thinking. What critics want is for journalists to report the factual evidence stacked so heavily to one side. G-ddamn what is wrong with you.

There are plenty of times when the media does a sloppy job of making coverage decisions. It overplays stories, reaches unfounded conclusions and publishes pieces that ought to be killed. But these calls should be based on the individual merits of the stories, not a guiding philosophy that encourages value judgments.

You . . I don't . . You lost me there.

I asked Amy Chozick, the lead Clinton reporter and author of several foundation stories, for her view on false balance in The Times’s political coverage.

Do tell. Whatever will she say? (Spoiler alert: She thinks everything's super.). Hey is 'lead Clinton reporter' like 'lead guitar'?

If Trump is unequivocally more flawed than his opponent, that should be plenty evident to the voting public come November.

This is the most damning thing in the whole article. This should - are you drunk? Seriously, how is Trumps towering juggernaut of flaws being "unequivocally more" a question?!? He's been spurting hateful rhetoric and an unstoppable river of narcissistic crap for almost a year and it's a question to you. Okay.

But it should be evident from the kinds of facts that bold and dogged reporting unearths, not from journalists being encouraged to impose their own values to tip the scale.

First, journalists' values don't enter in to it, the criticism is about reporting factual evidence. You switched them in the fourth paragraph and didn't look back. Secondly, you don't need to scour the city for these facts - he tells them to you directly!

I'm sorry, but this is an F. I expected better from a Public Editor. And now I don't know why.
posted by petebest at 3:57 PM on September 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

That Washington Post article really just is Trump in a nutshell, isn't it? He uses other people's money and hard work to make himself look like a generous, successful person, all the while he's really just using it for his personal benefit and ego stroking. Lying about charity, how pathetic can you get?

The mind reels at the disparity between the facts of the candidates' foundations and the coverage they're getting.
posted by marshmallow peep at 4:00 PM on September 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

A six-foot-tall painting of himself.

Any chance someone took a picture of Trump standing in front of this painting? Because this cries out to be a widely-shared meme picture.
posted by mmoncur at 4:10 PM on September 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Connecting with people like Coates is why this was a great statement by Clinton. She walked it back a bit which is unfortunate, but a lot of hardcore lefties I follow who hate her were applauding last night. Attack don't defend. Good strategy but also a moral imperative when so much of Trumps rhetoric and policy is literally fascism.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:11 PM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Any chance someone took a picture of Trump standing in front of this painting? Because this cries out to be a widely-shared meme picture.

Trump the Carpathian jumps immediately to mind.
posted by Mooski at 4:18 PM on September 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

George Takei‏ tweets

So let me get this straight: Trump supporters are butt hurt because someone overgeneralized them and called them a mean name? Oh, the irony

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:22 PM on September 10, 2016 [67 favorites]

> "Basket of deplorables" is such odd phrasing that I picture HRC practicing diligently until it just comes out naturally whenever she wants to say "bunch of assholes." Like training yourself to substitute "fudge" for "fuck" when you're around children.

Hmmm... Cork-soakers. Farging. Somanumbatching. Fargin iceholes. Yeah, Clinton as a Johnny Dangerously fan seems entirely plausible.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:24 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

It really is an odd turn of phrase, though.
posted by valkane at 4:35 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wish someone would pony up the dough to pay George Takei to dramatically read tweets all day, his own especially.
posted by peeedro at 4:36 PM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

Everything TrumpOrg learned from turning the Foundation into a vehicle that spends other people's money for personal self-aggrandisement and commercial benefit has been applied to the use of campaign money. Every single thing. I bet if you dig through the donors and recipients you'll find they had to sign NDAs with a non-disparagement clause.
posted by holgate at 4:38 PM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

George Takei‏ tweets

So let me get this straight: Trump supporters are butt hurt because someone overgeneralized them and called them a mean name? Oh, the irony

They need to get thicker skin, no?
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:44 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

They need to get thicker skin, no?

They should just ignore them. They must have done something to attract people into harassing them. They should just take some time off the Internet.
posted by Talez at 4:52 PM on September 10, 2016 [37 favorites]

In 2000 Donald Trump told Fortune magazine, “It’s very possible that I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it." (Betteridge's Law does NOT apply to the headline)

I'm honestly less worried about Deplorable Donald getting access to "the nuclear button" than I am about him getting the key to the U.S. Treasury. After all, "the button" is more complicated than just a red button, so he probably wouldn't be able to figure it out, but if he gets a stack of checks he can write...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:57 PM on September 10, 2016

Well good news there, it's empty and he already knows the Chinese banks really well.
posted by petebest at 4:59 PM on September 10, 2016

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I think that Clinton's 'half' is actually a work of subtle genius. It's the sort of thing that the Republicans can throw a hissy fit over - and if they do they extend the life of the accusation.
posted by Francis at 5:02 PM on September 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

So it just hit me after reading that WaPo article (thank you Tonycpsu), that Trump payed off Bondi with other people's money. This fucking guy used other people's charity donations to pay off Florida's Attorney General so there would be no investigation into his fraudulent university.
posted by cashman at 5:04 PM on September 10, 2016 [38 favorites]

It's HRC's ".22 caliber mind in a .357 magnum world" moment. An odd turn of phrase for the candidate to choose but one that just bores deeper the longer it's in the news.
posted by BundleOfHers at 5:10 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

This fucking guy used other people's charity donations to pay off Florida's Attorney General so there would be no investigation into his fraudulent university.

But the real question is whether Hillary shook down people to fund the fight against AIDS.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:12 PM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

"it's empty"? That's just what the Republicans in Congress claim when they want to eliminate good programs, and you know THEY never tell the truth. But one of his first acts will be to have the Bank of China move his multiple-hundred-million dollar debt to the U.S. Government account. Along with starting construction of his Wall, with a shell corporation run by his kids as the General Contractor. And Trump TV is still going to happen and his FCC will make it mandatory on every cable system. And this.

I just hope Hillary keeps a list of Trump Foundation Fraud Facts for every time she's asked about the Clinton Foundation from now on.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:14 PM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump then takes that money and generally does with it as he pleases. In many cases, he passes it on to other charities, which often are under the impression that it is Trump’s own money.

One of the regular bits on the Celebrity Apprentice was Trump promising to donate to the celebrity's favorite charity "from my own wallet" -- at least 21 times totaling $464,000, according to Fahrenthold.

It turns out that NBC actually provided the money which went into Trump's foundation from which the donations were made. Not a penny in the televised promises ever came from Trump's pocket. He simply lied for his own glory.

Since 2008, Trump has not contributed a dime to his Trump Foundation. Meanwhile the Clintons, although wealthy but certainly not the billionaire that Trump claims, have contributed more than $15 million to their own family foundation.
posted by JackFlash at 5:31 PM on September 10, 2016 [32 favorites]

NYT decides to finally call a spade a spade.

But Trump is another animal. There is no true equivalency between Trump and Clinton, or between Trump and any other politician, for that matter. Only 4 percent of Trump’s statements that PolitiFact checked were rated as completely “true” and only another 11 percent were even rated as “mostly true.” Seventy percent of Trump’s statements that the site checked were rated as “mostly false,” “false” or “pants on fire,” the site’s worse rating.

Only took them a year.
posted by Talez at 5:40 PM on September 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Talez, that's on Op-Ed piece, not the Times' official opinion, and two days before the Official Public Editor's awful "false balance" piece.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:44 PM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

They've been publishing op-eds saying similar things for months.
posted by Miko at 5:45 PM on September 10, 2016

Krugman has just taken the next semantic step from talking about Trump's lies to labeling Trump as a liar.
posted by peeedro at 5:48 PM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

*gasps*
posted by Artw at 5:50 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Blow has been calling out Trump for a while now.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:51 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Krugman kind of sideways called him liar in August too
posted by Miko at 5:53 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

And here's Kristof
posted by Miko at 5:53 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Proposed title for next FPP:

"Trump, you disgust me." "Ah, so you've discussed me. "
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:54 PM on September 10, 2016 [29 favorites]

Timothy Egan in June: Lord of the Lies
posted by Miko at 5:54 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

*gasps*

Yeah, I know. But think of it as the Starbucks effect. It takes a lot of effort to convince people in Columbus, Oh to spend $4 per day on coffee. But once Starbucks plows the way, there will be a whole bunch of indy coffee shops selling $4 lattes. Once Krugman trades his notoriety for the right to call a liar a "liar," it opens the door for a whole lot more people with more tenuous reputations to say the same.
posted by peeedro at 6:01 PM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think the "wait, no, answer the question" trend is catching on with at least the TV media. Keep rewarding them for that.
posted by ctmf at 6:02 PM on September 10, 2016 [20 favorites]

WaPo: How Donald Trump retooled his charity to spend other people’s money

That story is three hours old and has been hardly been picked up by any other outlet. The only other paper I see is the Chicago Tribute which is printing the WaPo article verbatim. I thought HuffPo had an article earlier but now I see they're just linking to WaPo.

I know it's Saturday, probably CNN/NBC/et al gave their gigantic army of fact-checkers the night off.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:11 PM on September 10, 2016

The foundation has no paid staffers. It has an unpaid board consisting of four Trumps — Donald, Ivanka, Eric and Donald Jr. — and one Trump Organization employee.

Meredith?
posted by snofoam at 6:28 PM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Meredith?

I'm guessing Steve. The odds are better.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:33 PM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

HRC's Facebook feed just posted:

“Trump spent $20,000 of money earmarked for charitable purposes to buy a six-foot-tall painting of himself.”

Reminder: If he becomes president, Donald Trump would have the entire U.S. economy in his hands.

posted by mmoncur at 6:34 PM on September 10, 2016 [40 favorites]

Proposed title for next FPP:

I don't expect that I'll be fast enough to author it myself, but in a just world the election day thread will ditch all the Hamilton stuff (I assume that was more Hamilton anyway) in favor of the clean simplicity Conan offers us.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:36 PM on September 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

TPM: Did They Forget to Mention Something?

"As far as I can tell, none of the Trump campaign pushback to Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comments have said anything about the people Clinton was talking about not being racist, not being misogynist or by whatever definition not being 'haters.' It's not referenced once."

Even they can't deny the obvious.
posted by chris24 at 6:37 PM on September 10, 2016 [34 favorites]

"What is best in life?" That's grim.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:38 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Potent Critiques of NBC Forum Raise Stakes for Moderators

Ostensibly about the remaining moderators' fear of criticism, it included these bits I would characterize as "choice":

The notion of a moderator as a fact-checker “is too simplistic,” said the Rev. John I. Jenkins, the president of the University of Notre Dame and a board member of the Commission on Presidential Debates, the nonpartisan group that oversees the events. . .
He said he did not watch the NBC forum.

Frock in the wash? You're on the board to pick debate moderators for Presidential elections and you didn't watch the biggest one in four years. Sure. Why not.

Real-time fact-checking is an increasingly visible tool of the modern political press, particularly in a so-called post-truth campaign where candidates frequently bend facts and audiences often rely on partisan news outlets to interpret them.

Wait, what? Who's calling it "post-truth"? (Is it journalists? I mean, it literally is, afaik, but - cite?)

There is also the presence of Mr. Trump, a candidate who freely dissembles in a manner rarely seen in a presidential campaign.

Oh ffs. What, are you unable to fact-check a year's worth of totally-making-shit-up LIES? Can't call a liar a liar? Well that's excellent work there Mr. Reporter man. Kudos.

While the Democratic nominee did not consider Mr. Lauer’s questions out of bounds, she did relish the subsequent coverage of the event that suggested Mr. Trump had gotten off easy, said a person familiar with her thinking.

A person. FAMILIAR. WITH. HER THINKING. Wow. Are you angry with your boss? Or something? You can't call Trump a liar, or a serial liar, but you'll cite someone familiar with HRC's thinking. As a real, honest-to-God, read-it-in-the-Times source. Well that's just f^*#ing great.

Was it Cheney? I mean, I understand the NYT sometimes can't tell when he's bs'ing you
posted by petebest at 6:48 PM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

And Jill Stein attacks Clinton over her "basket of deplorables" comment.

Stein needs to just go away.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:55 PM on September 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

Real-time fact-checking is an increasingly visible tool of the modern political press, particularly in a so-called post-truth campaign where candidates frequently bend facts and audiences often rely on partisan news outlets to interpret them.

The NYT has a hard enough time with non-realtime fact checking.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:58 PM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

The foundation has no paid staffers. It has an unpaid board consisting of four Trumps — Donald, Ivanka, Eric and Donald Jr. — and one Trump Organization employee.

Meredith?

No, it is Allen Weisselberg, who is also CFO of the Trump Organization, which is the holding company for Trump's businesses. According to Form 990-PF he serves as treasurer of the Trump Foundation.
posted by JackFlash at 6:58 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump’s Praise Of Putin Has GOP On Edge | Hardball | MSNBC

A refreshing panel with no "false balance."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:03 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Governor Mike Huckabee: Hillary shows contempt for people in her "basket". I think she blew a gasket. Her campaign headed for a casket.

I know he is irrelevant but lord that did make me laugh. Maybe he is angling for Poet Laureate?

I think he might accept the position if offered but lord knows he didn't ask it.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:06 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Politico has a video on Trump, literally ON 9/11, going on WWOR in New York and talking about how his building was now the tallest one in downtown New York.
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:11 PM on September 10, 2016 [40 favorites]

chris24: TPM: Did They Forget to Mention Something?

"As far as I can tell, none of the Trump campaign pushback to Clinton's "basket of deplorables" comments have said anything about the people Clinton was talking about not being racist, not being misogynist or by whatever definition not being 'haters.' It's not referenced once."

Even they can't deny the obvious.

So the only way for the GOP and staunch supporters to deal with "Basket of deplorables" is to omit the details, the fact that Hillary was referring to those who are openly, proudly racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic, you name it.

That way, they can say "Yeah, we're not bound by your up-tight PC rules, and we speak our mind," and some folks might say "hey, that's me, too! I'm one of the so-called deplorables!"

So we need to keep reminding others that "deplorables" were defined as those who are racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, and Islamaphobic. There is no place for pride in such views, only empathy and support for those individuals, that they might see the world from the eyes of someone else, and realize that their views on these topics are wrong.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:13 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

A six-foot-tall painting of himself.

Trump is apparently six-foot-two. Am I wrong to hope the painting is life-sized and cuts him off at the eyebrows?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:26 PM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

EXCLUSIVE: Donald Trump’s claim he got $150G in post-9/11 state funds for small businesses because he helped people in need is unfounded, docs show

When confronted with questions about why he took $150,000 in government money meant to help small businesses recover from 9/11, Donald Trump has repeatedly suggested he got that money for helping others out after the tragedy.

But documents obtained by the Daily News show that Trump’s account was just a huge lie.[...]

Those documents, exclusively obtained by The News from the Empire State Development Corporation which administered the recovery program, show Trump’s company asked for those funds for “rent loss,” “cleanup” and “repair” — not to recuperate money lost in helping people.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:29 PM on September 10, 2016 [35 favorites]

Damn, now that it's about a tall privileged white man, those hands are really kinda tiny.
posted by porpoise at 7:33 PM on September 10, 2016

William Gibson (@GreatDismal) tweeted at 7:08 PM on Sep 10:

She says basket of deplorables. I say bag of dicks. She's more presidential
posted by salix at 7:34 PM on September 10, 2016 [41 favorites]

Politico has a video on Trump, literally ON 9/11, going on WWOR in New York and talking about how his building was now the tallest one in downtown New York.

I listened to the first 5 or 6 minutes, and there's nothing there. He noted it, it's not like he bragged about it or said it in any kind of problematic way.
posted by cashman at 7:37 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I was not expecting Donny to have 9/11 baggage. In retrospect, I'm not sure why.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:37 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

What if William Gibson is jacked into our cyber threads?!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:39 PM on September 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well, the Cyber is a big thing today, apparently.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 7:43 PM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Politico has a video on Trump, literally ON 9/11, going on WWOR in New York and talking about how his building was now the tallest one in downtown New York.

~~Thousands of~~ A single ~~muslims~~ vulgar, petty, small handed human cheeto celebrated 9/11 ~~in Jersey~~ in Manhattan.
posted by Talez at 7:45 PM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

He noted it

I don't know, that seems kind of incredibly self-centered and narcissistic, doesn't it?
posted by waitingtoderail at 7:49 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, it's kind of like if they interviewed the #2 runner or race car driver or quarterback on the occasion of the #1 person being murdered, and he said "Yeah, I used to be number 2 but I'm number one now."

Such a person would be absolutely EVISCERATED by the press. But this is just "Trump being Trump"
posted by mmoncur at 7:52 PM on September 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

I hate this dude with the power of 10,000 suns but I just listened to the whole interview and it's a reach to say that part of it is an outrage or something most people should rightfully get angry over. I mean the guy is doing actual messed up shit every other day and saying horrible things that should earn him disdain. He didn't say anything problematic here. You want to try and run with it, go for it.
posted by cashman at 7:59 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The spelling errors don't even rate.

@DrDavidDuke #BasketOfDeplorabels

I'm glad someone's amused.
posted by Sophie1 at 8:03 PM on September 10, 2016

I listened to it and have the same impression as cashman. I think Trump is a racist demagogue and have no interest in defending him, but it's up to those of us for whom the stakes are high to be better, to be truthful and to not shape a story that isn't there, just because we don't like the person.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:05 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

"They only became great upon their demise" came a week later.

It's just "by the way" everyday narcissism that extends to his shitty buildings.
posted by holgate at 8:06 PM on September 10, 2016

Run with what? It's just another example of his, as holgate puts it, "everyday narcissism."
posted by waitingtoderail at 8:08 PM on September 10, 2016

I have to agree with Cashman. The newscasters basically put that remark in front of him over and over until he tripped over it. I clicked expecting more evidence of soulless self-aggrandizement, but even I couldn't get riled by it. And I get riled just seeing his name in print these days.
posted by kythuen at 8:08 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

So, this may be old hat since it was written in June, but I just came across it via my Facebook feed and I bet there are quite a few readers on this thread who'd appreciate it. Still relevant: The most thorough, profound and moving defense of Hillary Clinton I have ever seen.
posted by Sublimity at 8:19 PM on September 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

Sean Hannity is having some kind of breakdown on twitter vs most of the staff of the National Review
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:45 PM on September 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

is it about cheese steaks
posted by Sys Rq at 8:47 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

On the subject of the defense of Hillary, someone posted a link @ 40,000 comments ago that was a counter-argument for each of the conspiracy theories related to her. But I can't seem to find it. Does anyone remember?
posted by monkeystronghold at 8:47 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sean, quit trying to make #ownit happen. It doesn't sound tough, it sounds like you're issuing running commentary while combing lice eggs out of your hair.
posted by palomar at 8:51 PM on September 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Funniest thing is Hannity is having his breakdown at a Rascal Flats concert. Every 8 or so unhinged rants there's a concert update interlude.
posted by chris24 at 8:54 PM on September 10, 2016 [19 favorites]

Maybe they're not lice eggs, but eggs from that thing on Trump's head, and now they're hatching, burrowing into Hannity's brain...
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:57 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The HRC prez had my favorite quip of the night at the gala when he referred to "Trump's campaign chief technical officer, Vladimir Putin."
posted by phearlez at 9:03 PM on September 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Since it's been a stressful day, here's some good news to help you sleep. Clinton up 5, 46-41 in a 4 way, and 8, 51-43 head to head in new ABC/Post poll of likely voters.

And nice to see her over 50.
posted by chris24 at 9:04 PM on September 10, 2016 [24 favorites]

I believe Mr. Hannity might be involved in a tweet war with Rich Lowry of the National Review. He seems at a disadvantage, what with his concert commentary going on at the same time, but he's gamely giving multitasking a shot. Or he might be drunk. Opinions vary.
posted by Silverstone at 9:08 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Other good news for Clinton in the ABC poll: Obama's approval rating is up to 58%, highest since July 2009.
posted by chris24 at 9:16 PM on September 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

Fieldwork for that ABC/Post poll began on Labor Day: first one of what I'd call a "high quality poll". They asked the "path to citizenship?" question, and got a 79% yes, which is consistent with other polling but shows that 20% of voters will support Trump and disagree with the main plank of his core immigration policy. Which, to me, says that the half-vs-half for Trump supporters is on the money.

46% thinking voter fraud happens often is pretty miserable, though.
posted by holgate at 9:19 PM on September 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Statement from Clinton: I regret the 'half' but not the deplorable.

It's a head-fake towards contrition.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:20 PM on September 10, 2016

John Podesta confirms she's not backing down. Fight she wants to have.

His statement which is a screenshot attached to the tweet, does not mess around.
posted by chris24 at 9:27 PM on September 10, 2016 [23 favorites]

"America is better than Donald Trump. "

Give him hell, Hillary.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:36 PM on September 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

Question: should we now be referring to the RSHX community as the RSHXI community?

I would have thought Islamophobia was covered under the "X", but wouldn't want to be uninclusive.
posted by shenderson at 9:46 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Holy shit, a Heer Jeet tweet just reminded everyone that Trump retweeted an image of himself as Pepe the Frog last October.
posted by chris24 at 9:47 PM on September 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

And Trump Jr just retweeted tonight a neo-Nazi meme with Pepe as well.
posted by chris24 at 9:53 PM on September 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

And nice to see her over 50.

She's been over 50 for 18 years no-- oh I see what you mean.
posted by Brie Fantasy at 10:02 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Since it's been a stressful day, here's some good news to help you sleep. Clinton up 5, 46-41 in a 4 way, and 8, 51-43 head to head in new ABC/Post poll of likely voters.

The JCPL thanks you.
posted by Justinian at 10:10 PM on September 10, 2016 [42 favorites]

palomar: Sean, quit trying to make #ownit happen.

Or, be more explicit about what you're owning. "Yeah, we're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic — you name it. #ownit"

Or if that's too long to type out while at the Rascal Flats concert, "yes, we fear and hate anyone different from us. #ownit"
posted by filthy light thief at 10:22 PM on September 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

It looks, preliminarily, like the race has fallen back to the pre-convention equilibrium. Which is at once a bit reassuring (since Clinton had a 3-4 point lead and a swing state advantage) and absolutely terrifying. Because how could the two party conventions plus that two week span where Trump essentially tore off his human mask and revealed himself to be a dumber and more incompetent George Wallace not have affected the long-term state of the race in any way.

How? The race is exactly where it was before Trump insulted a Gold Star family. Before he was revealed to be a Russian Useful Idiot. Before... I can't even bring myself to type it out. You all know the terrible weeks he had where he was doing more than one thing every day that would have ended any other campaign.

And nobody's vote changed.
posted by Justinian at 10:23 PM on September 10, 2016 [17 favorites]

I don't have data or even good theory but I kinda expect that the level of support we see for Trump isn't jyst his actual level of support but also includes a fair number of people who are willing to vote for him IFF he loses, so it increases until it doesn't feel safe enough to voice your support for him.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:44 PM on September 10, 2016

It's that he's a Republican. Republicans are going to vote Republican; thay'll figure out a way to justify it to themselves.
posted by argybarg at 10:53 PM on September 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Re, Pepe, memes, and proof that I'm officially one of the old's, my 13 year old came in and showed me a video making the rounds of the junior high set, wherein an actress portraying Sec. Clinton, enacts various "dank memes". Which...I thought seriously about dissecting for him, but just left it at gleeful amusement that consensus with the snapchat crowd is that Hillary is way cooler and weirder than Her Opponent.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 11:01 PM on September 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

William Gibson (@GreatDismal) tweeted at 7:08 PM on Sep 10:

She says basket of deplorables. I say bag of dicks. She's more presidential

I don't care what anyone says abut how easy it was to come up with that snarky line, William Gibson cribbed from my comment in a tweet and this is the peak of my existence.
posted by dis_integration at 11:10 PM on September 10, 2016 [55 favorites]

So how long do we think it will be before one of Trump's evangelical surrogates tries to spin the "deplorables" comment as prejudice against Christians?
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:12 PM on September 10, 2016

And nobody's vote changed.

collectively, on a good day, the electorate has an IQ approaching 100.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 11:20 PM on September 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

a fair number of people who are willing to vote for him IFF he loses

The Brexit voter strategy. Feels clever until you accidentally get what you asked for, and then it's too late.
posted by ctmf at 11:26 PM on September 10, 2016 [31 favorites]

Day after election top Google: what is a fascist?
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:02 AM on September 11, 2016 [40 favorites]

There is an almost astonishing predictability to how quickly the loudest opponents of "political correctness" fall upon their fainting couches and demand an apology as soon as anything remotely non-laudatory is said about them.
posted by kyrademon at 1:32 AM on September 11, 2016 [75 favorites]

"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?" -- Samuel Johnson
posted by kirkaracha at 5:32 AM on September 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

It's as much role play as reality I'd say, where they are more interested in profiting from the dynamic of political discourse than they are honestly offended. I suspect they'd say as easily as "we're" offended, we don't shy away from trying to give offense. Or something to that effect but nastier.

This is all just another part of the disdain for politics so many feel, where everyone believes they really know the true nature of the politicians and their parties, but such belief will never be acknowledged, accurate or no. It's this sort of thing that allows for the death of truth as the perception is campaigns are all one big charade anyway and politicians will do what they want once elected. Cynicism is the best arbiter in that way as it allows you to doubt everything. That makes it easy just root for your team to win no matter what was done to make that to happen. Although it also renders you blind to any genuine commitment that may in fact be present. Better, I guess, to not be fooled by a common scoundrel than to risk trust in a seemingly rare exception.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:40 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?" -- Samuel Johnson

Steve Silberman @stevesilberman
Breaking: Same Trumpites who call my autistic friends "retards," and call me a "filthy jew faggot," demand apology from Clinton.

Yep. The deplorables are the ones asking for the apology.
posted by Talez at 5:44 AM on September 11, 2016 [31 favorites]

Paul Ryan thinks Hillary should be ashamed.
posted by ian1977 at 5:49 AM on September 11, 2016

If Paul Ryan wasn't such a fucking douchebag he could have been the memeiest Republican alive.
posted by Talez at 5:51 AM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

If Paul Ryan had any spine he could *own* 2020. What a miserable cowardly fool.
posted by ian1977 at 5:54 AM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

The self-proclaimed "tough guys" usually aren't. I remember this same thing playing out over and over again during the Bush years. All those White House officials and pro-Bush bloggers, who would rhapsodize about their wars and compare Bush & themselves to Churchill, would melt into incoherence at the slightest verbal provocation from their opponents. Their "steely reserve" wasn't much.

Thinking this is because of their obsession with black / white worldviews, a sense of divine duty and fate, and thinking solely in terms of violence. They actually might be resolute in the face of physical attacks from their enemies. War is, after all, what they always want. But dialogue & insults are something they've never anticipated nor prepared for.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:54 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

To me it's similar to fighting back against a shitty alcoholic psychotic step parent who terrorized the household for years... One day you fight back with words and they are surprised and angry in a way that would be pitiable if they weren't such a douchenugget.
posted by ian1977 at 5:58 AM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

A good tweetstorm and deep dive on the new ABC/Post poll by Dem pollster Nick Gourevitch starts with:

1: Some observations from new Post/ABC poll. Looking back vs. same poll in 2012:
9/9/12: Obama +6 RV; +1 LV
9/8/16: Clinton +10 RV; +5 LV

Hopefully the +4 to Obama at this time further helps the JCPL.
posted by chris24 at 6:33 AM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh, and not mentioned in the above tweetstorm, 57% of voters says Trump is biased against women and minorities. 46% say strongly biased.

You would hope that would put a low 40s ceiling on his support. (And in fact he has yet to exceed 43% on the Huffpost Pollster in this election.)
posted by chris24 at 6:42 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Question: should we now be referring to the RSHX community as the RSHXI community?

You forgot the A.

Or you could just call them DICKBAGS.
posted by Artw at 6:43 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

46% say trump is biased against women and minorities and think that's a feature not a bug.
posted by ian1977 at 6:45 AM on September 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

I would just like to offer that NOT ONE TRUMP SUPPORTER, I offer to wager $100 on Hillary Clinton beating Donald Trump has voted with their wallet.

Polls may say differently, but when it matters, and people are given the choice to vote with their wallet?

NOT ONE actually steps up and puts their money were their mouth is.

Hillary Clinton, by +27 points. Free Market FTW!
posted by mikelieman at 6:46 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

(And in fact he has yet to exceed 43% on the Huffpost Pollster in this election.)

But that's enough to win if Johnson and Stein draw a significant percentage between them...
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:52 AM on September 11, 2016

But that's enough to win if Johnson and Stein draw a significant percentage between them...

Clinton has never been below 44.6%.
posted by chris24 at 6:54 AM on September 11, 2016

chris24: in fact he has yet to exceed 43% on the Huffpost Pollster in this election.

I see 44.1% on January 7, am I doing this wrong?
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:57 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I see 44.1% on January 7, am I doing this wrong?

Sorry, I had mine set for 6 months history to go back to when he basically became the de facto nominee. Yes, on January 7, he was above.
posted by chris24 at 7:01 AM on September 11, 2016

Ah, that makes sense.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:06 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm something like 120 comments late for this, but about that lovely, lovely public editor screed from the NYT:

1. Oh good! They at least have noticed thousands of people getting increasingly irate at them for some reason!
2. Can someone mail them links to the "This is fine." and the "This is not fine." strips please?
posted by seyirci at 7:13 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would just like to offer that NOT ONE TRUMP SUPPORTER, I offer to wager $100 on Hillary Clinton beating Donald Trump has voted with their wallet.

Consider yourself lucky, a Trump supporter would never actually pay out if he lost anyway. They'd complain that Hillary's win didn't count because she cheated somehow.
posted by octothorpe at 7:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

Governor Mike Huckabee: Hillary shows contempt for people in her "basket". I think she blew a gasket. Her campaign headed for a casket.

I know he is irrelevant but lord that did make me laugh. Maybe he is angling for Poet Laureate?

Sounds more like he's angling for Nipsey Russell's spot on Match Game.
posted by PlusDistance at 7:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

To me it's similar to fighting back against a shitty alcoholic psychotic step parent

Agreed, I really think this is a huge part of the election. Not at just one simplistic HRC=good / Trump=bad level but many levels. Mostly around Trump and his base. There's a tangible dynamic w/r/t alcoholism and abuse. See Fred Christ Trump, Steve Bannon, southern-swastika-waving moonshiners, etc.

In addition to defeating a very real specter of fascist ruin, there's an opportunity to heal some stuff. Somehow.
posted by petebest at 7:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

GIULIANI to ABC: "Of course" taking Iraq's oil would have been legal: "Until the war is over, anything is legal."
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:17 AM on September 11, 2016

Sounds more like he's angling for Nipsey Russell's spot on Match Game.

How dare you.

Related: Match Game is back hosted by Alec Baldwin. Sadly, no Nipsey :(
posted by petebest at 7:21 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

GIULIANI to ABC: "Of course" taking Iraq's oil would have been legal: "Until the war is over, anything is legal."

So the Iraqis engaging in an insurgency against an imperial force would have been legal? Ghouliani you fucking twit.
posted by Talez at 7:25 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

GIULIANI to ABC: "Of course" taking Iraq's oil would have been legal: "Until the war is over, anything is legal."

I am going to be sooooo happy to watch this intellectual fireball fade back into obscurity.
posted by Mooski at 7:26 AM on September 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I mean technically under the Annex to the Hague Convention of 1907 on the Laws and Customs of War and the 1949 Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War it would be illegal to pillage Iraq and take its oil but when you have a standing force able to defeat the next seven largest armies combined who really is going to enforce it?
posted by Talez at 7:28 AM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Everything is legal in New Jersey.
posted by rikschell at 7:29 AM on September 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

Ghouliani you fucking twit.

It occurred to me as I read this that I would pay folding money on a monthly basis to watch a news channel where the journalists were permitted - nay, encouraged - to say things like this when greeted with the kind of abject stupidity that Trump's supporters seem to spout like a Bellagio fountain.
posted by Mooski at 7:32 AM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

It occurred to me as I read this that I would pay folding money on a monthly basis to watch a news channel where the journalists were permitted - nay, encouraged - to say things like this when greeted with the kind of abject stupidity that Trump's supporters seem to spout like a Bellagio fountain.

I wonder what would have happened if Stephanopoulos had said "with all due respect Mr Mayor, are you high right now?"
posted by Talez at 7:34 AM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yep. The deplorables are the ones asking for the apology.

But, here's the rub. They aren't really asking for an apology, they want to take Hillary down a notch all while being insulted ironically. If they were ever asked if they were actually insulted, the lulz would erupt like a cherry bomb in the boys bathroom.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:35 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ghouliani you fucking twit.

Somebody call Bill Murray.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:35 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Somebody call Bill Murray.

"It's true. This man has no ~~dick~~ soul."
posted by Talez at 7:36 AM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

I like that she used basket cuz it's not 'cool' to be in a basket but deplorables does have a certain 'bad boy' ring to it. So the deplorables can own it if they choose. She should have said 'basket of man babies'
posted by ian1977 at 7:37 AM on September 11, 2016

But, here's the rub. They aren't really asking for an apology, they want to take Hillary down a notch all while being insulted ironically. If they were ever asked if they were actually insulted, the lulz would erupt like a cherry bomb in the boys bathroom.

Republicans never argue anything in good faith, except tax cuts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:38 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

GIULIANI to ABC: "Of course" taking Iraq's oil would have been legal: "Until the war is over, anything is legal."

I am going to be sooooo happy to watch this intellectual fireball fade back into obscurity.

Was Giuliani this stupid when he was mayor? I know policy wise he did things that I find 'ugh worthy' when I read about them but was he this level of stupid.
Or is what we are seeing with Trump et. a' great gathering of people that provide example after example of the 'Peter Principle' in action. (Observation that in an hierarchy people tend to rise to their level of incompetence. )

It's like Peter and Dunning Kruger have thrown a party and as they watch from the sideline are all 'See here look everyone THIS is what we're talking about."
posted by Jalliah at 7:45 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The deplorables are out in force this morning braying about Hillary having a "medical episode" at the memorial. Can't find any news sources, just Fox and Twitchy, so if someone sees an actual news report on this pls post.
posted by palomar at 7:46 AM on September 11, 2016

palomar, I think the thing got started because Hillary's press pool was told they could not stay with her for the 9/11 remembrance.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:49 AM on September 11, 2016

New CBS battleground state polls:

FL
Clinton 44 - Trump 42

OH
Clinton 46 - Trump 39
posted by chris24 at 7:50 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's also 80 degrees here now, and it looks like Sec. Clinton was wearing a full suit. I would have fainted, too, and I'm 36.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:53 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I was thinking it's likely total bullshit since only Fox and Twitchy are running with it. At least so far. I guess this is the right wing press's way of hitting back for the deplorables remark, as well as a continuance of the bullshit health rumors...
posted by palomar at 7:54 AM on September 11, 2016

She left a little earlier than expected and now people are speculating.
posted by colt45 at 7:58 AM on September 11, 2016

Who said she fainted?
posted by asteria at 8:00 AM on September 11, 2016

asteria, the New York Post, which is often crap but sometimes real.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:01 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Political Wire has it, but the source is this tweet without anything further and I don't know much about that site. Now some cops are saying she fainted.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:04 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

No names of sources, of course. Excellent "reporting"!
posted by palomar at 8:06 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'll believe it when I see the video.
posted by asteria at 8:06 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"May have"
posted by petebest at 8:07 AM on September 11, 2016

Stmt from Clinton spox @NickMerrill: Clinton felt "overheated" and left 9/11 memorial for Chelsea's apt.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:09 AM on September 11, 2016

I "may have" grown a tail overnight. A big bushy golden retriever tail. Sources say so.
posted by palomar at 8:10 AM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Post cites Fox as the source at the end of their article, unless they're just trying to say Fox had it first.

It's also 80 degrees here now, and it looks like Sec. Clinton was wearing a full suit. I would have fainted, too, and I'm 36.

This is what I'm thinking. It has been seriously hot on the east coast, and was supposed to be very muggy/humid this morning. It's funny to read she was "rushed" from the area, when they had video of her walking away with sunglasses on.
posted by cashman at 8:10 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's also 80 degrees here now, and it looks like Sec. Clinton was wearing a full suit

It's definitely above 80 down here, and the NYPD & NYFD in dress uniform I've seen have all unbuttoned their jackets and collars to beat the heat.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:13 AM on September 11, 2016

@aseitzwald @jbarro @NickMerrill this doesn't make much sense. Why don't they just tell the truth?

Yeah, feeling overheated on a hot day makes no fucking sense at all. These people just…*shakes head sadly*
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's also 80 degrees here now, and it looks like Sec. Clinton was wearing a full suit

And body armor I'm assuming.
posted by chris24 at 8:15 AM on September 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

Someone dug up a Donald Trump tweet from two years ago, Sept. 26, 2014: I wonder if I run for PRESIDENT, will the haters and losers vote for me knowing that I will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN? I say they will!

And today that joins the short list of @realDonaldTrump tweets that have been deleted.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 8:15 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

For instance: 3 days ago, a model (Some nudity at the philly.com link) in Kanye's fashion show in New York, 10 minutes from the memorial, fainted from the heat.
posted by cashman at 8:15 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fox News:

"Secretary Clinton attended the September 11th Commemoration Ceremony for just an hour and thirty minutes this morning to pay her respects and greet some of the families of the fallen," Clinton spokesperson Nick Merrill said in a statement. "During the ceremony, she felt overheated so departed to go to her daughter's apartment, and is feeling much better."

But a witness told Fox News that Clinton stumbled off the curb, her "knees buckled" and she lost a shoe as she was helped into a van during her "unexpected early departure."

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:16 AM on September 11, 2016

On a positive note, "basket of deplorables" lasted about 24 hours, and now we're back to fake health scares. Improvement?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:17 AM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Because I'm a masochist I decided to head over to the_Donald to see what the reaction to the Basket of Deplorables comment. Here are just some of the dank memes I found. It's an interesting mix of "how dare she call us deplorable" and "damn right, I'm deplorable"

A play on Little Red Riding Hood
Image of bloodied Trump supporter in a hospital w text
MS Paint style drawing of Pepe in a basket
"TRUMP JR SHITPOSTING WITH OUR MEMES ON FACEBOOKMADMAN" play on 'Expendables' poster
Picture of Julian Assange with some text on it
Pic of homeless person wearing MAGA cap "Hillary says this person is deplorable."
#BasketOfDeplorables!? More like Basket of #ADORABLES! We love our pistol-packin' mamas!
Edit of Les Misérables poster
Pepe/Prince of Egypt (?) mashup
Another Pepe in a basket drawing
"Deplorable Me" minion meme
Pic of some kids who support Trump "According to $hillary this is the face of deplorable scum."
Silence of the Lambs "It puts the deplorables in the basket"
Jaws pic: "We're gonna need a bigger basket"
Trump/Pepe Google trends
Another basket photoshop (with Putin parachuting in in a bear suit)
Remix of old "Centipedes in my vagina" meme
Harambe in a basket with Pepe
Another Pepe in a basket
Hillary's Guide to America - Basket Edition
Kermit/Tea meme
posted by metaphorever at 8:21 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Hillary Clinton unexpectedly left a 9/11 event in New York City on Sunday because she didn't feel well, her campaign said."

Simple case of not feeling well. It happens on 9/11 alot. The 80 degree heat, basketgate, poll number in flux.
I hope she feels better.
posted by clavdivs at 8:24 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wondered if the phone banks would be open today- they aren't. (oops, this is ThePinkSuperhero)
posted by Stynxno at 8:34 AM on September 11, 2016

Magicians for Trump [humor]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:42 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump’s Shortest Attribute Isn’t His Fingers:

[Trump’s attention span] has become a subject of more widespread concern as voters consider how Trump’s habits and personality might translate to the presidency—a job that demands uncommon focus, with life in the West Wing often feeling like a control panel of perpetually blinking emergency lights.
...
"The day I realized it can be smart to be shallow was, for me, a deep experience."

posted by kirkaracha at 8:43 AM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

...William Gibson cribbed from my comment in a tweet and this is the peak of my existence.

Link it so we can re-tweet it and drive your peak higher!
posted by VTX at 8:43 AM on September 11, 2016

Awkward. The online call tool is disabled for Sept 11 but we still have a phone bank event scheduled.
posted by R343L at 8:43 AM on September 11, 2016

Maybe if you fascist fuckers weren't shouting "hang hillary" every 5 seconds she could wear weather-appropriate clothing instead of what is probably 15 pounds of body armor under a full winter outfit.
posted by maxwelton at 8:44 AM on September 11, 2016 [58 favorites]

Ugh. Tonight the Great Ghouliani will rise out of the bullshit patch. His video image flies through the air and brings spittle-flecked fear and hatred to all the deplorable children of the world. Meanwhile, Chuck Todd hopes this year his bullshit will be chosen as the most sincere.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:52 AM on September 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

NBC news Special Report just now because Hillary left her daughter's apartment and got into an SUV
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:55 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

JFC our media is such an embarrassment
posted by palomar at 8:55 AM on September 11, 2016 [33 favorites]

I am signed up for my first HFA volunteer gig of the season today. Canvassing in Tarrant county, Texas. Will report back. I am determined to be brave and knock on those doors!
posted by tingting at 8:58 AM on September 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

Clinton leaving Chelsea's apartment smiling and waving.
posted by chris24 at 8:59 AM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Tarrant County is Fort Worth, right? If you're knocking on urban or suburban doors you might get a more positive response than you expect.
posted by Nice Guy Mike at 8:59 AM on September 11, 2016

I hope she got to spend some time with her adorable grandchildren. Probably a welcome detour.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:01 AM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yes, Tarrant County is Ft. Worth.
posted by chris24 at 9:01 AM on September 11, 2016

Tarrant county is Fort Worth but also Arlington and a few other cities/citylets (though I am pretty sure they will keep me in Fort Worth.)
posted by tingting at 9:01 AM on September 11, 2016

I'm terrified about this. Everyone in the world has been close to fainting on a hot day, but thanks to our shit media it could put Trump in the White House.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:02 AM on September 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

Hillary Clinton leaving the ceremony.
posted by gladly at 9:02 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hillary Clinton leaving the ceremony.

Ugh that does not look good.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

The video of her stopping to take a picture with that little girl is very sweet.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:07 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Everyone in the world has been close to fainting on a hot day, but thanks to our shit media it could put Trump in the White House.

Absolutely this.
posted by gladly at 9:09 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

This will make him so gleeful he'll be salivating. I can't bear it.

This fucking election.
posted by readery at 9:12 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can we take a moment to remember the time the first George Bush threw up on the Japanese prime minister and then passed out? Thanks.

Surely the President isn't supposed to be bionic. They'll get ill or uncomfortable or otherwise influenced by stuff incidental to the job, and they'll power through as best they can but occasionally need to step back from the work and breathe. The fact that Hillary Clinton actually feels normal human conditions hardly seems noteworthy to me.
posted by jackbishop at 9:13 AM on September 11, 2016 [32 favorites]

Yes, *we* get that. The other side and the fucking media do not.
posted by palomar at 9:14 AM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yes our press sucks and Trump is horrible, but gloating and conspiracy theorizing about her health could easily be as damaging among the moderates and women he needs to get as helpful. Sure it fires up the base, but he already has those votes. And the prospect of a Kaine presidency would for many people possibly help Ds.
posted by chris24 at 9:16 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh, the other side gets it, too -- when it's one of their people.
Remember, It's OK If You're A Republican.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:16 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Getting overheated on a balls hot day is not even a health problem.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:23 AM on September 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

When is the Dr Oz appearance happening, anyway?
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, that seems like something pretty adjacent to a campaign killer.
posted by codacorolla at 9:26 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can we take a moment to remember the time the first George Bush threw up on the Japanese prime minister and then passed out? Thanks.

Here's the video of Bush passing out I don't think I ever even knew that happened.
posted by cashman at 9:30 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Bet she can still eat a pretzel without choking, though.
posted by Devonian at 9:30 AM on September 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Well, that seems like something pretty adjacent to a campaign killer.

Comments like that will help make it so.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:33 AM on September 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

Does the health bullshit even mean anything? I mean, of course it's not true, but are there really non-hypothetical people out there going "well, dang I wanted to vote Hillary, but now I don't know..."

Like the apology thing, it's a bunch of people ironically "playing politics" disingenuously playing with words making anything about their guy sound good and anything about us seem bad. It's like a soccer player taking a dive. Ow ow, my shin. And the media eats it up.
posted by ctmf at 9:35 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was unaware of my comments majestic power, but unfortunately the edit window has closed so it's impossible for me to change it to "somehow, actually, this is good."
posted by codacorolla at 9:36 AM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

In an election where there was some intersection between candidates, which could make for easy cross over voting, the state of health of one candidate might make some significant difference in the election. In a race where the candidates are wholly dissimilar, such as this one, I don't think a fainting spell is going to do much to reassure anyone that Trump is somehow more presidential all of a sudden. At worst it might keep a small group of iffy Trump supporters from switching to Clinton, but it sure ain't gonna cause any Clinton supporters to switch to Trump.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:36 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

It looks like she tripped on the curb?
posted by schadenfrau at 9:37 AM on September 11, 2016

Welp, that's stupid enough for a months worth of media.
posted by Artw at 9:40 AM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Phew! Hello, all of you! I pulled a mini–tehhund this last week and let myself get a thread and a half behind before catching up across yesterday and today. God but these things are tedious when you let yourself slip behind.

I keep finding myself much more interested in the dynamics of this race than in the individual goings–on (except for the bit about Trump’s Miami office being a Clinton person’s idea of a prank—that was GOLD). The cycle of discussion here, minus the awful cockshit of people asking about the emails at the thread’s start for the umpteenth time, follows such predictable patterns. Trump says a thing, it’s awful. A media outlet does something poorly, that’s awful too. Hillary says something wonderful, of course she does. The polls move up or down, and when they go up people “take a breath”, and then they go back down—resetting to the very–high status quo that would win Clinton the election even if her ground game wasn’t phenomenally better than Trump’s—people freak out again, even though this has all happened a maybe–literal hundred times by now.

So what’s interesting here is not what’s going on. It’s not the fact that Trump has supporters. Honestly, if you think his supporters think about the world in sophisticated enough ways for their thoughts to be classified as “racist” or “sexist”, you’re grossly overestimating how much effort they’ve put into this. (I don’t want to be mean to Trump supporters. This election cycle has shown us how many people on the left are exactly the same sort of mushy nonsense thinkers. The fact that their mushy nonsense is less harmful doesn’t make it less mush or less nonsense, and it’s the mushy nonsensiness that really interests me here.)

I want to leave aside the question of ideals, both in terms of how they shape our society and how we form them. Because, again, the problem isn’t that a bunch of people put careful, considered effort into deciding they liked fascist strongmen—even the jagoffs who read Mencius Moldbug or Nick Land aren’t actually interested in political theory, and they’re a gross minority anyway. The National Review can write about how disgusting Trump is and still think that the fifty years leading up to Trump were okay. The problem here isn’t with idealism, or with whether idealism or pragmatism is preferable in the political sphere (and that’s a false duality anyway). The problem here is with how we acquire and parse information, and it’s a cultural problem above anything, with a heavy ladling of technology to boot.

It’s interesting to me that Trump is so frequently referred to as a “Twitter candidate”. He’s absolutely a bombastic tweeter, though Hillary’s done an increasingly great job of countering him these last two months. It’s also interesting to me how much discussion here revolves around Facebook friends—what they’re saying, how we’ve argued with them, who PMed what to whom. The “news” of the world as we see it encompasses these micro–exchanges. The same thing that feeds us the latest controversy about what godawful thing Trump said feeds us everything our friends think are fit to speak out loud. Trump, of course, takes advantage of this model, and uses it to get himself talked about 24/7.

Our media institutions—CNN, The New York Times, MetaFilter itself—operate according to the same models. Sometimes more obvious, sometimes less so. Events that ought to be substantiative, like that Matt Lauer shitshow, instead become parceled down into dozens of micro–stories, different bundles of which are packaged and sold to different audiences. What do the Trump fans take away? The Clinton fans? The military? Then we get the translations of those events, the convenient (and highly misleading) summaries, the opinions. We get the people who speak reason to us, for whichever definition of reason we prefer. This is what we take in and interpret as “what’s happened”. This is the horserace of our day–to–day lives, and it extends far beyond the political sphere.

I love Charlie Pierce, gosh do I, but if you read five Charlie Pierce posts you leave with maybe one flash of insight across the lot of them, along with a lot of clever quips and soothing sanity. You don’t come away knowing more about politicians’ records, or about the complexities of the issues politicians struggle with. If anything, you come away with slightly more knowledge about if a thing happened—and I don’t know if “keeping up with current events” really requires the nuance of knowing all fifty dozen things that happen every day. The bar for “current” keeps raising.

This reflects across every facet of our culture. The ever–evolving memes, the subcultures that appear and burst and bleed into one another. The evolution from Facebook and Twitter to Instagram and Snapchat—more granularity, more ephemerality.* Casual gaming as a market. Aggregation sites like Reddit (for millennials) and Hacker News (for millennials who want to be Peter Thiel). Music culture, both in the “indie” scene of releases which simultaneously receive droves of critical and popular attention, and in the mainstream ongoing soap opera of Taylor Swift, Kanye West, and whomever else.

This extends also to the rise of television as our go–to artistic medium. Whether you’re looking for “high art” like, I dunno, The Americans and Mad Men, or you’re simply keeping up with the Kardashians, the medium of film has been turned into something that you’re expected to tune into every week, and discuss in the days leading up to that, and speculate about endlessly during the nine months while you wait for the next season to come on. (Movies, and their explosive sequelitis, have come to reflect that trend as well.) This comment, left less than two days ago by fingers_of_fire—years ago, in contemporary terms—touched upon that pretty darn well:

i spent much of the summer feverishly pouring over metafilter election threads, but lately i've stayed away. the reason finally dawned on me, reading over this last post (which is a perfectly fine post, Church HatesTucker). It reads like it belongs on fanfare. And then it dawned on me - someone who hasn't watch a minute of reality television in my life - that Donald Trump has turned this election in to reality television. that's why it is tough to campaign against him - he isn't playing the same game as HRC. It also explains why the media loves him so much, and why he is so great for ratings. he's playing a character. he's not campaigning in good faith. he's playing to his strengths - like anyone would, trying to accomplish something very very difficult.

[…]

anyway, obsessing over these posts - which brought me a tremendous amount of entertainment and comfort, in all honesty - ultimately left me feeling bloated in the way that i imagine watching the apprentice or survivor would. of course the utterly terrifying thing is that the stakes are so dangerously high and that even if Donald Trump loses he has nonetheless left his fecal-scented mark all over our society.

We talk about Trump being the reality show candidate, but do we consider the extent to which he is a reflection of our culture rather than its cause? I’m not just talking about “journalists” who want to catch some news. I’m talking about the people with three minutes to kill on the subway who’re looking for a thing to read to pass the time. The people who let themselves get wrapped up in stories involving a single individual person—sometimes who they’ve never met—being shitty or having a wrong opinion or whatever else. We often have the tendency to extrapolate one occurrence, or a small series of occurrences, into a declarative statement about the rest of the world. The more “occurrences” we’re bombarded with, the more we feel the desperate need to grab onto them, to assemble them into the jigsaw puzzle that explains our world, to make sure we aren’t missing out on something important. It will never be enough. We’ll never be able to track all the billions of people who might fit in with the granularity we want.

I think that in some ways this is indistinguishable from insanity. If madness is seeing rules, seeing logic, seeing patterns, that either don’t exist or don’t matter, then it’s eerily similar to the way in which we’ve all been taught to tell ourselves that all these things are important. There are a few things you can do that are significant in this election: donate, volunteer, or learn something new. That’s about it. The rest is noise.

I’m struck by the way that John Oliver, in his show, dedicates only a couple of minutes to summarize the most recent global stories of interest, and twenty–five minutes to examining a single issue in–depth. He could spend thirty minutes covering an even broader range of stories, but that’s the kind of thing that those terrible morning news shows do, and they go nowhere. Might as well set a little bit of time aside, plunge into the details of a story, and come away from it knowing how to respond to the next “breaking news” about that subject a little more sanely and calmly. That gives you more time to focus on the next thing in turn.

(And even then, I don’t watch the guy’s show every week. I genuinely think there’s something problematic with television as a delivery medium. There are a few shows—not at once, not airing every year—that I care enough to get into, but even those few are fairly lightweight as far as television goes. And I find that watching TV sucks me into the rabbithole of responses to TV, discussions about TV, and, invariably, recommendations of what other TV is vital watching if you’d like to stay current. Again, that strikes me as a pattern of our culture as a whole.)

The myth of current news, I think, is that it matters because we all see it. We’re all in the loop. But we’re clearly not! I see justinian say things like

How? The race is exactly where it was before Trump insulted a Gold Star family. Before he was revealed to be a Russian Useful Idiot. Before... I can't even bring myself to type it out. You all know the terrible weeks he had where he was doing more than one thing every day that would have ended any other campaign.

And nobody's vote changed.

…and I think: of course it hasn’t! We haven’t collectively decided, as a nation, how we’re going to assign significance to different stories. Of course there’s one set of stories that’s a lot saner and less awful than the other set of stories—I’m not assuming a false equivalence between sets of “news” here—but I think that, on our end, keeping up–to–date on things that’ll lead to us being frustrated with how other Americans aren’t keeping up with us is maybe not the best way to move forward.

Again: donate. Volunteer. Do research and share what you’ve learned. The rest is bunkum.

I think that Trump will lose, for political and demographic reasons. Reality still exists, regardless of what bullshit you feed yourself. That’s true of the people we don’t like as much as it’s true of us. A white nationalist party isn’t going to win the presidency this year. It would win even less if we all paid attention to the news, the same news, the correct news, but we don’t, and it’s gonna get more votes than I’d like on its way to losing.

I don’t think Trump will win in 2020 either, for what it’s worth.

But I do think that we have a responsibility, to ourselves and others, to take the responsibility of how we, as consumers of news, respond to these elections. I think that Trump has exposed a lot of truths about how we’ve been taught to receive the news. That’s not entirely Matt Lauer’s fault. I think Lauer is a shithead, but why do I know enough about Lauer to have formed that opinion? Because y’all watched Lauer do his contrived, stupid thing, and then I watched y’all do yours. (I say this with love.)

At some point, I guess, keeping abreast of all the newspapers and magazines and TV stations was the way to stay cultured. These days, that’s a faulty proposition. We have more news than ever, and more proof than ever that even the institutions we want to respect the most—the NYT and NPR both come to mind—are seriously problematic and perhaps not where we should be getting our news from. We are also publishers and curators in our own right, and commentators, and responsible for the news that other people see. Calling ourselves blameless here is giving ourselves an out that I don’t think we deserve.

Not that I think anybody here is worse or more responsible for awfulness than Matt Lauer, mind. But I think that we can choose which parts of our culture we feed and engage with, and that institutions generally don’t magically transform overnight. They respond to the people who give them a reason for being. I think we have more power over that than we let ourselves think—first in terms of micro, individual cultures, and ultimately in terms of macro.

I like this site for reading news more than I like reading any other, but, God, taking a step back and then plunging in definitely felt like an eye–opener. We need something better. But we won’t get anything better until we look away long enough to have a chance to think about what better looks like, and what it requires of us.
posted by rorgy at 9:41 AM on September 11, 2016 [58 favorites]

Let's at least not try to spin it. It looks like she swayed, then physically collapsed.

Heat exhaustion can do that. Plain old exhaustion can do that.

Suppose her health is more fragile than Trump's. So what? He is malevolent.
posted by perspicio at 9:41 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Let's at least not try to spin it. It looks like she swayed, then physically collapsed.

Heat exhaustion can do that. Plain old exhaustion can do that.

Pretty much. That same person has a picture (not sure how he kept being this close to her) from when she was walking to the car. And it seems like it was a long walk, and there she is walking. So it really does just seem like heat exhaustion. Wearing layers of clothes, and then the walk probably made it worse.

2016 just won't quit.
posted by cashman at 9:47 AM on September 11, 2016

Trump claims he helped "a little bit" to clear rubble/look for survivors on September 11, 2001
posted by anastasiav at 9:49 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

There are still 57 days until the election; my estimate is that about 200 things of equivalent or greater importance will happen between now and then. A substantial percentage of those will be Trump own-goals.

I'm not going to argue that this is a good thing; I just don't think anyone will care about it by Halloween.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:50 AM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh, good, let's definitely trot out the crackpot conspiracy theories. Allow me to sever some muscles real quick so I can roll my eyes all the way around.
posted by palomar at 9:55 AM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

The polls are all over the place today. The ABC national poll posted earlier is great. But then you've got a crazy mishmash out of NBC/WSJ/Marist. They have Trump only up by 2 in GEORGIA. They have Trump only up by 2 in Arizona! But then they have Clinton only up by 2 in New Hampshire (!?!?) and losing by a point in Nevada. Stop trying to ruin the day, New Hampshire. Get your shit together.

CBS has Clinton up by 2 in Florida but 7 in Ohio! Reverse those two results and I might believe them more. But up by 7 in Ohio? Nuh-uh you can't fool me, it's just a trick to freak me out when your next poll shows Trump up by 1 in Ohio. I know. I know.
posted by Justinian at 9:55 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

A few comments deleted; let's way not have a fight about ironic mocking of FDR.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:56 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Nuh-uh you can't fool me, it's just a trick to freak me out when your next poll shows Trump up by 1 in Ohio. I know. I know.

reporting < (ratings/pageviews/subscriptions)

I wish to hell it were possible to find a billionaire willing to lose money in the service of their society and fund a truly independent news organization.
posted by Mooski at 10:00 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

A few more... Also let's not throw around random accusations about whether other people in the thread are volunteering enough.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:00 AM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

AFAIK it wasn't all that hot in NYC this morning but I bet it was humid as all hell.
posted by Justinian at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2016

'The Last Last Summer of Atlantic City,' (Joshua Cohen for n+1)
posted by box at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Rorgy, I love your posts so damn much. I knew it was you like a paragraph in.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:06 AM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Kids in marching band get wobbly and get heat exhaustion. So do soldiers in formation. They don't even need body armor to pull it off.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:06 AM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

So I've been perusing the links you lovely folks have posted over the last 36 hours or so. It just boggles the mind that this fucker is still the standard-bearer for anything, much less has a nonzero chance of becoming President. I mean, come on.

Words fail me.
posted by wallabear at 10:09 AM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

AFAIK it wasn't all that hot in NYC this morning but I bet it was humid as all hell.

I live 2 blocks from NYSE in FiDi. Walking the dogs this morning both my wife and I thought it was hot and humid. And I was in shorts and tee, not a suit and body armor.
posted by chris24 at 10:16 AM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

I've worn body armor in high heat & humidity. It's heavy. It's suffocating. You feel like you're going to pass out.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:17 AM on September 11, 2016 [32 favorites]

On rorgy's fantastic post: I definitely think that just as the mechanisms and mindset of trolling have bled into the mainstream (they were already there, just not quite articulated within that definition) the practices of fandom and media-blogging have. "Everything's a recap, everything's recapitulation" is a consequence of enthusiasm, yes, but also too many outlets seeking too few ad views, whether for a run-down of a TV show or a cribbed version of a story via a story via a story phrased in terms the SEO tools demand.

This is the Election Campaign Universe, not dissimilar from the Marvel Comic Universe, and there are fandoms operating like fandoms operate. That white nationalism adapts more easily to 2010s-online-fandom is a bit terrifying.

And so I'm going to step away from the internets for a bit while the HumidityTruthers show up elsewhere.
posted by holgate at 10:21 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Libertarian VP candidate William Weld passing out while getting an honorary degree at Bentley College commencement 20 years ago. It happens.
posted by chris24 at 10:25 AM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I agree it happens and doesn't mean Clinton's health is compromised but it sure couldn't have happened at a worse time. The optics are a problem. We can say it shouldn't matter all we want but it's gonna.
posted by Justinian at 10:27 AM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

We can say it shouldn't matter all we want but it's gonna.

Everything she says or does will matter; next to nothing he says or does will. It's infuriating.
posted by Mooski at 10:32 AM on September 11, 2016 [29 favorites]

Even I see the right is jugging this up, personally I don't like it nor do I like opposition deflecting or overly defending a candidate at any cost, even lies. Both sides attacking at this point makes the days when Bernie was in look sane. I'm oft reminded about the center in politics, some may sit the French Revoultion as the for running modern model. I laugh because I have to remind folks there was not a "center" throughout the whole damn thing.
A modern example would be European/ american politics 1919-1939. Twenty short years and the center is again the rotation of ideaology meeting to agree on similar interests.
Ask the Girondans or the old followers of Huey Long.
posted by clavdivs at 10:33 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump could be burning a cross and y'all would be like "hmm, it appears this may be racially-tinged but he could also be gathering firewood"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:34 AM on September 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

Sit/cite
posted by clavdivs at 10:34 AM on September 11, 2016

Great, it's starting:Hillary Clinton's Health Just Became a Real Issue from WaPo's The Fix.
posted by Justinian at 10:34 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

The optics are a problem.

I agree. But I'm a big believer in info and examples to refute BS. I know it doesn't work with many, but I have hope for the middle and moderates.
posted by chris24 at 10:35 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Gathering firewood"
It's the semantic fools who endanger real discourse in politivs. And a danger on the environment, encouraging people to perhaps cut trees.
posted by clavdivs at 10:40 AM on September 11, 2016

I mean, maybe they were on Survivor.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:41 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, seriously, I passed out at marching band practice in the heat and I was a healthy young lady of fifteen at the time. It happened to a bunch of kids. Are there really so many people in the US who've never lived in a hot place, put who've never had to be out in it for more than a few minutes? This is insane.
posted by the marble index at 10:41 AM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

In March, UVa coach Tony Bennett passed out courtside during the NCAA Tournament. He was 46 and in an air-conditioned arena.
posted by chris24 at 10:50 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was chatting with my dad about this earlier. Granted, he hates Trump, but he's always been conservative and leaned Fox News-y neocon after 9/11. He is so fed up with how the media is treating Clinton, how no one's asking any real questions, how she cannot catch a break from them. He dreads the media going all in on a person feeling faint in the heat instead of any actual issues facing the country. Hopefully there are a lot more people viewing this like my dad.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:51 AM on September 11, 2016 [40 favorites]

I cannot fucking wait to hoist the word "optics" on a pike and leave it for the flies and carrion birds
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:53 AM on September 11, 2016 [60 favorites]

"optics"

Shit we can make a big deal of with a woman/Dem but don't give a crap about with a man/Rep.
posted by chris24 at 10:57 AM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

AFAIK it wasn't all that hot in NYC this morning but I bet it was humid as all hell.

I cut my walk short this morning (in NC) because the sun was unpleasantly broiling at about 9 AM. The air was humid and breeze-less.
posted by thelonius at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Again, Hillary's Opponent and the GOP have NOTHING on her, so here we have another "health scare." She's been doing this for 25 years, living in the spotlight, surviving scrutiny. That alone makes me all the more confident in her and proud to support her.

Every bullshit nothingburger scandal and scare people try to stick on Hillary makes me realize how ready she is for this job. Do you think there's really some terrible October Surprise they're holding back, if they jump on a mis-step and taking care of herself on a hot day?

He is so fed up with how the media is treating Clinton, how no one's asking any real questions, how she cannot catch a break from them.

Because if they did, they'd hear real answers, which would make Donny look terrible. Let's go back and enjoy Seth Meyers cold-read Trump's actual words. And in comparison, here's a transcript of the entire event, so you can read what Hillary said.

Hillary knows what she's doing, and what she is going to do. She won't have any "What is Aleppo?" moments, or anything close to it. She won't fumble her way through a response. Side by side, Hillary will make Donald look like a chump.

That's why the media doesn't ask her any real questions, and that's why she is likely to come away looking like a champ at the debates. Unless there's a "beginners" and "masters" set of questions for the candidates at the debates, Hillary and her opponent will be compared more fairly than they have before, and she will fucking shine.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:04 AM on September 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

Not holding out hope on that front, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:10 AM on September 11, 2016

She may as well just tie it in with the 'deplorables' non-retraction. "I got hot. I wish I didn't have to wear 20 lbs of body armor everywhere, but... [montage of Trump rallies]"
posted by ctmf at 11:11 AM on September 11, 2016 [30 favorites]

Is it a matter of public discussion in the mainstream that she has to wear body armor? Is that something they can say, or would it be against security protocol ("commenting on operational matters" or similar) so they just never acknowledge it?
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:13 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is it a matter of public discussion in the mainstream that she has to wear body armor?

Not that I have heard, and I thought I was following fairly closely. That said, to hear it spoken of matter of factly doesn't surprise me.
posted by Mooski at 11:20 AM on September 11, 2016

Rorgy, I love your posts so damn much. I knew it was you like a paragraph in.

I knew it was rorgy when the byline was scrolled off the bottom of the screen so I couldn't see it was rorgy.
posted by phearlez at 11:25 AM on September 11, 2016 [25 favorites]

Clinton could have six months to live and I'd vote for her before Trump or the other two clowns. Better a few months of Clinton than even one moment wirh Trump.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:30 AM on September 11, 2016 [41 favorites]

Here's your Ativan: 'Tsunami Of Lies': The Week In Donald Trump | Morning Joe | MSNBC
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:32 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Because if they did, they'd hear real answers, which would make Donny look terrible. Let's go back and enjoy Seth Meyers cold-read Trump's actual words. And in comparison, here's a transcript of the entire event, so you can read what Hillary said.

lol yeah I know, I wasn't asking why, just expressing that conservatives like my dad are getting fed up with her treatment.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 11:32 AM on September 11, 2016

This seems like a good situation to talk about what succession might actually look like between them. What Trump wants people to believe is that it's his personal, er, "virtues", that will be the instrument through which America will be Made Great Again: he'll be out there personally negotiating trade deals, he knows how to fight ISIS better than the generals, and like he's done in business he'll be the one creating crises to take advantage of, brilliantly carrying out withdraw-military-support-from-NATO-members brinkmanship to squeeze money from allies and handing out nuclear weapons, and directing the military to invade places to seize oil and overseeing a Deportation Force while they're gathering and transporting millions of people, keeping his hand on their shoulder so that they don't get out of control while they're busting down doors and conducting raids to round up "the illegals" all over the country.

He'll personally be the keystone of all government activity and he never writes anything down, doesn't even talk to his top-ranking people enough for them to know what's going on. But he'll delegate feudally and (supposedly) remain loyal to his vassals no matter how often the Corey Lewandowskis judo-chop reporters, making his patronage and good favor necessary for those vassals to retain their own power. Continuity-of-government-wise, he basically wants to be Hugo Chavez, and if he were to die or become incapacitated everything would fall apart just like Venezuela did and countless other regimes when the strong man isn't there any more.

Pence would be like Truman, coming into office not even knowing about the dozens of lowest-bid new Manhattan Projects Trump had his tiny fingers in.

Conversely, a Clinton administration would be a machine made of policy and contingency plans, set up so that she's making fine adjustments to the controls in between more makin' history. Anything happens to her and it'll be like one of Elon Musk's Powerwall systems kicking in instantaneously, without even having to spin up a generator.

She would basically leave an autopilot with a detailed instruction manual behind for her successor, not just a letter. Whereas with Trump all the envelope will contain is a folded photocopy of his butt.
posted by XMLicious at 11:33 AM on September 11, 2016 [28 favorites]

Holy fuck, on a day where a Trump mouthpiece defended the idea of taking Iraqi oil as spoils of war as being an ok, perfectly legal thing to do , this is going to be what dominates the news cycle?

Jesus fuck, media, wake up. Yes, this is a story. The story is this: Hillary Clinton became overheated at a 9/11 memorial event today, and took a short rest to recuperate. Much more than that verges into the "raises questions" and "casts doubt" level of reporting that is baseless speculation and is being done more to make you feel important than anything that involves real facts. Remember those? I do. In fact, every time you give me a story that involves the "raises questions" phrase, it "casts doubt" on your ability to report without uninformed speculation on what has happened.

Sorry if that hurts your precious fee-fees, mainstream press, but those are the facts that I see. I guess if you disagree, we can write a headline like "Internet comment casts doubt on ability, accuracy of press; media disagrees" and call it a day, right?
posted by nubs at 11:35 AM on September 11, 2016 [29 favorites]

FYI, the dew point at 9:00am was 72. Oppressive.
posted by chris24 at 11:40 AM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yeah, I damn near swooned at a church rummage sale yesterday morning, it was so hot and humid. I didn't have to stand in the sun wearing body armor, either.

This never gets less infuriating.
posted by nonasuch at 11:43 AM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I bet chuck todd has such a boner right now
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:47 AM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Holy fuck, on a day where a Trump mouthpiece defended the idea of taking Iraqi oil as spoils of war as being an ok, perfectly legal thing to do , this is going to be what dominates the news cycle?

Why would that be a big deal? This was a mainstream, uncontroversial talking point among neoconservatives during the run up to the invasion of Iraq. As far as I can remember, the most common rebuttal was that it wouldn't work very well to reimburse our costs, not that it would be blatantly illegal.
posted by indubitable at 11:51 AM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

It doesn't do any good to call Trump and company (Giuliani, Pierson, etc.) liars. Everyone knows they are already. Non-Trump voters already know it. Trump voters know it. To use the soccer dive analogy again, the Trump voters are sitting there watching, going "hell yeah, baby, work it. See what you can get away with." They're on Twitter helping him with the FUD smokescreen.

There's nobody saying, hmmm wait a minute now. If he's that wiling to lie for every little tiny bit of advantage, maybe the reasons I think I like him in the first place... are also lies???? [extreme face zoom]
posted by ctmf at 11:56 AM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

It doesn't do any good to call Trump and company (Giuliani, Pierson, etc.) liars. Everyone knows they are already. Non-Trump voters already know it. Trump voters know it.

I strongly disagree. Trump voters don't care, but who cares about them. They're beyond reason and help but fortunately only make up about 40% of the electorate. He needs another 10% and that 10% does seem to care, hence his shitty numbers with moderates, college educated and women. It's frustrating and hard work pushing back but the constant calling out of lies is needed to break through to people who don't pay as close of attention as we do, to preserve our institutions, and to provide a check on the press.
posted by chris24 at 12:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Whereas with Trump all the envelope will contain is a folded photocopy of his butt.

Giving Make America Great Again a whole meaning.
posted by y2karl at 12:05 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

It doesn't do any good to worry about but I have to say, just once, on the infinitesimal chance that someone who is reading this can do something about it:
IF IF IF there is any chance there is anything wrong with HRCs overall health, then I really really hope the campaign either A. Finds a really simple and positive way to reveal it IMMEDIATELY with a lot of medical allies giving evidence about why it's not a big deal etc. OR starts doing a IMMACULATE job covering it up.

There probably isn't anything wrong with her other thAn age and workin too hard in the heat but if there is, even something non-life-threatening like Diabetes covering it up and being caught in oh early October would be NOT GREAT. NOT GREAT NO.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 12:08 PM on September 11, 2016

I just want her to flatly say "I almost fainted because I have to wear body armor. You know why I have to wear body armor? Because my opponent is fomenting such hatred and violence that the Secret Service is actually afraid for my life when I'm in public and the media is too busy scratching their collective balls to report on it. Fuck all y'all."

But I digress.
posted by lydhre at 12:09 PM on September 11, 2016 [73 favorites]

It's frustrating and hard work pushing back but the constant calling out of lies is needed to break through to people who don't pay as close of attention as we do, to preserve our institutions, and to provide a check on the press.

Yup yup - that gives me an idea, actually: a Twitter account that simply posts the word 'Bullshit' and a link to the contradictory data every time he opens his yap.

He'd lose his mind inside a week.
posted by Mooski at 12:09 PM on September 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

@TUSK81
Hillary Clinton has finally made Republicans care about a woman's health, and she's not even President yet.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:17 PM on September 11, 2016 [79 favorites]

Dr. Jen Gunter: Hillary Clinton almost fainted. I’m a doctor. It’s really o.k.

More than you ever wanted to know about fainting and Clinton's released medical records.
posted by chris24 at 12:28 PM on September 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

New York weather systems are typically about12-24 hours behind us here and it was awful here yesterday. A cold front moved on over night and its much much better today, so relief is on its way New Yorkers, sit tight.

I'm the queen of giving myself heat stroke, because I'm fair skinned and in my younger years red headed and I'm also pretty bad at taking care of myself in the heat. I've never passed out because I've never passed out for any reason, not even that one time I gave myself a concussion, but I've definitely needed to leave the scene and sit in air conditioning right the fuck now. Because I'm a human being and sometimes my body punks out.

This is even dumber than basketghazi.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:36 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

SCENE: A prominent late night talk show

HOST: "Secretary Clinton, a lot of folks are concerned about your health after your dizzy spell at the 9/11 memorial. It wasn't even that hot out. What happened?"

[Clinton stands, tears open pantsuit Superman-style to reveal a BADASS KEVLAR VEST with a steel Hillary logo over her heart. Drops it on the studio floor like a sack of potatoes.]

CLINTON: "A lot of people want to kill me, Jimmy."
posted by Rhaomi at 12:36 PM on September 11, 2016 [61 favorites]

CHT, thanks for the "Tsunami of Lies" link.
posted by wallabear at 12:37 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

[Clinton stands, tears open pantsuit Superman-style to reveal a BADASS KEVLAR VEST with a steel Hillary logo over her heart.]

Host: What's the logo stand for?
Clinton: On my world it means "hope." {cue Hans Zimmer score}
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 1:00 PM on September 11, 2016 [34 favorites]

CLINTON: "A lot of people want to kill me, Jimmy."

Jimmy: "like a conspiracy?"

Clinton: "your fired"

Jimmy: (laughs)
posted by clavdivs at 1:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just a reminder Trump skipped a debate because he was scared to take questions from Megyn Kelly, but whatevs Clinton can't handle the pressure.
posted by PenDevil at 1:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Maybe "It's normal to faint from heat" is not the best way to rationalize the situation. "Because of heat exhaustion" nevertheless feeds the opposition's narrative, since it allows the interpretation "This president couldn't manage her schedule properly and ended up overextending herself; that's irresponsible behavior; further, look at how non-transparently she continues to treat this issue".

And stepping back, this is the subtlety in what people see in a presidential candidate; on the one hand, some can access/relate to their experiences (such as the body armor bringing in a lot of explanatory context), but on the other, people are also looking for the candidate that is is "better"—"healthier" being a simplistic sub-criterion of that. Anyone who saw the video saw how she was physically maneuvered into the vehicle and how limp her body was in that state. It's a fine line to not downplay the valid concerns about a situation, without allowing others to exaggerate the issue. Part of this is keeping in mind there's stuff we don't know, and as citizens and journalists we have the responsbility of finding out and exercising our skills in asking good questions.

For example, I think that most people can accept that the heavy body armor can overwhelm a person's circulatory system in this way. But most people do not have this context. It has to be related somehow; in my case I connect this to how Patrick Stewart and Jeri Ryan had mobility/breathing issues with their costumes on Star Trek. Explaining the context and providing more information helps others understand better.
posted by polymodus at 1:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

The real question is not stupid comparisons to sports stars that pass out, but who else "felt ill" at the ceremony.
She won't escape this one.
Maybe she can re-schedule events closer to home.
posted by clavdivs at 1:10 PM on September 11, 2016

The real question is not stupid comparisons to sports stars that pass out

He was the coach. And regular, younger, even male people passing out in situations more favorable than outdoors in humidity and with body armor is informative when people are commenting on age and sex.
posted by chris24 at 1:14 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Clintons live in NY so NYC is already close to home.
posted by asteria at 1:16 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

CNN, while doing its best to avoid dispelling a fake controversy it will get tons of easy airtime out of, is pointing out that because she's dealing with people trying to make up conspiracy theories related to coughing, she might have upped her dose of antihistamines for moderating allergies, which could lead to dehydration.
posted by XMLicious at 1:17 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

she might have upped her dose of antihistamines

Interesting. God knows cold/allergy medicine makes me sketchy.
posted by chris24 at 1:20 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump also left before the ceremony was over.
posted by palomar at 1:21 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

You know that soldiers - some of the fittest young men on the planet - are trained in how to fall over with decorum if they feel themselves fainting on parade?

Because they do faint on parade, in hot humid weather and otherwise.
posted by Devonian at 1:22 PM on September 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

My only issue with her phrase basket of deplorable is that it wasn't basket of despicables.

As to her health, why isn't the press obsessing over the Donald's tsunami of dementia symptoms ? JFHC, he can't make a logically coherent sentence let alone finish one -- he makes a gibberish of gibberish.
posted by y2karl at 1:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

palomar: Trump also left before the ceremony was over.

And? What was his excuse?
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:25 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

"What kind of response is that? "Half your supporters are racist!" "Yeah, but they're hard-working!""
posted by lazugod at 1:26 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

No excuse that I know of, because aside from one throwaway mention at the end of an article the media hasn't said a damn thing about it.
posted by palomar at 1:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Again I wonder which of the debates he'll be ducking out of due to "tiredness".
posted by Artw at 1:38 PM on September 11, 2016

Trump also left before the ceremony was over.

Trump was THERE? After the valor-stealing bullshit he tried?
posted by mikelieman at 1:42 PM on September 11, 2016

We've had a president who had polio-related paralysis. There is nothing about the position that could not be done even today by someone with much more significant health issues than Clinton has. The ableism on display with this kind of criticism is really sickening. I have more respect for a conspiracy theorist who thinks she's secretly dying than the much more frequent idea that she's just "not healthy enough" to be president. I care if she has cancer or something seriously disruptive. I don't care if she's fit enough to put on martial arts demonstrations. I'm voting for a president, not someone who needs to personally be fit enough to wrestle bears or whatever it is Putin's off doing right now. Physical fitness is not a job-related qualification here; it's a distraction from actual qualifications.
posted by Sequence at 1:43 PM on September 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

In hindsight, maybe we shouldn't have gone with "honestly, it's kind of draining" for the thread this week.
posted by zachlipton at 1:45 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

With 8 more weeks, we can still use it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:47 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Physical fitness is not a job-related qualification here; it's a distraction from actual qualifications.

Arguably, given the breadth and depth of FDR's service, from the New Deal to kicking Fascist Ass in WWII, being in a wheelchair makes you a better President.
posted by mikelieman at 1:49 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Projection has been such a staple of the Trump campaign that this stuff just makes me assume he's probably actually been dead since about mid-July.
posted by kyrademon at 1:51 PM on September 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

This "Hillary swoons" story is just going to have to play itself out. All our "this is bullshit" (and yes, it *is* bullshit) comments here aren't going to do a thing about that. It's now made her health officially (as in, our world-class media outlets are calling it) a "legitimate issue", and we get to watch from the sidelines as the bullshit goes down. It's terrible timing, but there's still a couple months left for it to die down.
posted by uosuaq at 1:52 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think the 'Clinton almost faints in New York' story will be a big deal at all, despite whatever media tries to make of it. Almost everybody in America has been dealing with summer for last several months because it's summer in the Northern Hemisphere. People are smarter than most MeFites are willing to admit . Almost everyone who spends any amount of time outside or works outside realizes how easy it is to get dizzy in this kind of whether if you don't stay properly hydrated. Most people can recognize obvious bullshit as bullshit, and this is really obvious. I don't think this will get any traction at all with the general public, except for already committed Trump fanatics.
posted by nangar at 1:53 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I would *love* for one of the debates to devolve into Trump style birtherism, "Prove the concussion didn't leave brain damage", whereby Hillary Clinton brings up the early onset dementia that killed his father Fred, and starts reading his inconsistent, word-salad statements as evidence that perhaps Trump is suffering from the same thing.

Ok, so the campaign in my head is more entertaining than what I'm going to get, but I can hope...

_{i can hope...}
posted by mikelieman at 1:55 PM on September 11, 2016

why isn't the press obsessing over the Donald's tsunami of dementia symptoms ?

Exhibit #2,379: Thanks to the heroes of 7-11

But then again, it may not be dementia - many are saying #TrumpHasRabies
posted by madamjujujive at 1:55 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Fascinating little clip from earlier, during the ceremony. Shows Clinton there with Bloomberg, Cuomo, De Blasio, Trump and Christie. To be honest I'm really just posting this because I never really realized just how damn tall Bill De Blasio is. He's really tall! Easily the tallest person there.
posted by dis_integration at 1:56 PM on September 11, 2016

Projection has been such a staple of the Trump campaign that this stuff just makes me assume he's probably actually been dead since about mid-July.

Donald Trump: now with new and improved UBIK!
posted by y2karl at 1:59 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Projection has been such a staple of the Trump campaign that this stuff just makes me assume he's probably actually been dead since about mid-July.

It does look like he has to sleep in a coffin of his native earth or something, the way he has to go back to his own properties every night.
posted by dilettante at 1:59 PM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I don't think Clinton nearly fainting will break the campaign, but it's going to be a grating trope for, like, forever. "Can't take the heat" blah blah. It'll be the thing your racist uncle brings up on Thanksgiving that makes you go "oh yeah, almost forgot about that one."
posted by teponaztli at 1:59 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I care if she has cancer or something seriously disruptive.

I don't care if she has pancreatic cancer, if she can make it to the inauguration. Tim Kaine is a perfectly capable Vice President I'd be happy to have on call, he's not fucking Sarah Palin. Even hypothetically-on-death's-door-Hilary is a far better choice than Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [45 favorites]

Didn't America win the War of Independence so that people didn't have to stand out in the hot sun like Mad Dogs and Englishmen?
posted by srboisvert at 2:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

It does look like he has to sleep in a coffin of his native earth or something, the way he has to go back every night.

The "hair" must be fed with the blood of virgins freshly sacrificed on an Aztec altar in a secret vestibule off the parking garage.
posted by y2karl at 2:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

In hindsight, maybe we shouldn't have gone with "honestly, it's kind of draining" for the thread this week.

#NextPost
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:08 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Physical fitness per se is not the concern. The concern is twofold--are the personal, physical issues impacting cognitive resources needed for a particular role, and second, to the extent that others are affected, how will they manage moving forward in terms of disclosure, transparency, framing, and so on?

Reducing to ableism risks ignoring these issues. Asserting an issue is "purely physical therefore not relevant" is problematic from many directions including the psychological. Try to tell a modern psychologist that physical issues have no bearing whatsoever on a person's decision-making and other higher cognitive resources.
posted by polymodus at 2:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

GIULIANI to ABC: "Of course" taking Iraq's oil would have been legal: "Until the war is over, anything is legal."

I just want to marvel once again at the fact that this man was, for various periods of time during his career, a successful federal prosecutor, United States Associate Attorney General, and U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

General Petraeus Passing Out During Senate Armed Services Committee meeting in 2010. (at 2:15)
posted by chris24 at 2:11 PM on September 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

I just want to marvel once again at the fact that this man was, for various periods of time during his career, a successful federal prosecutor, United States Associate Attorney General, and U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.

"9/11 changed everything"
posted by mikelieman at 2:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Didn't America win the War of Independence so that people didn't have to stand out in the hot sun like Mad Dogs and Englishmen?"

Yes but Englishmen give use that great Segway between Sun King and Mean Mr Mustard for comportment.

And the grace for Her Majesty.
posted by clavdivs at 2:15 PM on September 11, 2016

Climate change, amirite ppl? It's hot! It's too damn hot!

Plus campaigning has to be like roadying for Foghat but without the sex, drugs, and rooftop pool diving. Tiring.

Despicable Donny doesn't even stay on the road AND he charges us for not doing it. Friggin' loser.
posted by petebest at 2:20 PM on September 11, 2016

Sometimes I like to play Fantasy Campaign Operative, and here's how I'd have Hillary spin it:

"I felt a bit dizzy during the heat the other day, and a lot of people started asking questions about Presidential fitness. Well, I can assure you I'm in great conition, and the documents are on my website if you want to know more. But I'm really glad people are raising the issue of 'fitness,' because it really is possible to be 'fit' or 'unfit' for the Presidency, in ways that are not just or even mostly physical, but in ways that touch on judgment, character, teperament, experience, and proven record. Some people really are fit to hold the highest office in the nation, and some clearly unfit. And I think we've all noticed that my opponent is greivously unfit." [followed by a litany of examples]. Just take "fit" and turn it on them - rediret, don't defend. We've all been saying Trumps "unfit" anyway.

Also, get her out there playing tennis or Frisbee or something the next couple days. I recently heard that when rumors started flying about FDR's campaign, he went on a sailing trip with his son. He would stop at ports around the Northeast, stand at the wheel and shout to people on the dock "gotta get going! We'll miss the tide!" The overall impression was one of ruddy health, but he didn't have to move around a lot. I would like to substantiate this with a link because I only second-hand-heard it, but I'm off for a run. Maybe someone can find something.
posted by Miko at 2:21 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

People are smarter than most MeFites are willing to admit

What is your evidence for this? Clinton currently has a 3 polling lead. That doesn't strike me as particularly smart of the American people.
posted by Justinian at 2:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Clinton's doctor has released a statement:

"Secretary Clinton has been experiencing a cough related to allergies. On Friday, during follow up evaluation of her prolonged cough, she was diagnosed with pneumonia. She was put on antibiotics and advised to rest and modify her schedule. While at this morning's event, she became overheated and dehydrated. I have just examined her and she is now re-hydrated and recovering nicely."

i've had pneumonia. And at a much younger age. She's a stronger person than I being out in a suit and body armor in this heat with it.
posted by chris24 at 2:25 PM on September 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

Oh, any word on those tax returns, DJ? Any of them will do. 2007, whatever you got. Just - yeah I know, I know, audit - yeah look Don it's kind of an imperative here. Like a "do not pass go" thing.

Lyin', Cheatin', Criminal F**kup. Dig the barest thread of honor out of that g-damned wig and at least make an effort not to be such a sleaze ok? Do it for George Washington, man!
posted by petebest at 2:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd have her shooting some ball with Barry. Perhaps croquet.
posted by clavdivs at 2:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Secretary Clinton ha been experiencing a cough related to allergies. On Friday, during follow up evaluation of her prolonged cough, she was diagnosed with pneumonia.

FWIW, pneumonia is a very seriously illness in someone who is 70 years old.
posted by Justinian at 2:29 PM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

No. After Obamas getting laughed out of Asia on the heels of the UN gangs political firecracker...chuck Todd no general Kelly no.
Madeline Alsobright, perfect.
posted by clavdivs at 2:31 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

True but her health insurance is really good. Plus her old boss could make some calls, get a specialist on it.
posted by petebest at 2:31 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

That's super unfortunate about the pneumonia.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:31 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think they meant that she's pneumatic, because she's a glass-ceiling-breaking machine.
posted by XMLicious at 2:34 PM on September 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

I project record high Justiniain indexes
posted by Yowser at 2:35 PM on September 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

guys didn't St. Ronnie personally kick the asses of the entire Red Army while he was in the early stages of Alzheimer's?
posted by indubitable at 2:36 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, I had viral pneumonia as a kid and it sucks just the same I want a phelgm sample analyzed by an independent source and WTF was that not diagnosed before today, the symptoms were there, she didn't get it last night.
More lies, more cover up.
posted by clavdivs at 2:36 PM on September 11, 2016

Are you kidding, clavdivs
posted by Yowser at 2:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

clavdivs, it was diagnosed on Friday.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

It was diagnosed Friday, it was announced today.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

WTF was that not diagnosed before today

The statement specifically says she was diagnosed with it Friday during a followup on something that would have some similar symptoms.
posted by chris24 at 2:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope she feels better, and wish that people hadn't been making such a big deal out of rumors with her health before, so she could have simply said "hey I'm sick, going to take some medicine and rest up and I'll see you in a couple days" like any normal human being instead of having to power through pretending nothing was wrong until this happened.
posted by zachlipton at 2:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [29 favorites]

Eh? It's not a lie to not volunteer your candidate has pneumonia unless the topic comes up? Like it kind of did today.

Sending Clinton out to stand around for a couple hours while she's got walking pneumonia strikes me as a suboptimal decision. I understand that "the candidate is remembering 9/11 privately" would raise some eyebrows but not as many eyebrows as "the candidate passes out and is dragged into a waiting SUV and driven away".
posted by Justinian at 2:39 PM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm peeved they didn't disclose this on Friday. This does not help with the "she's hiding something about her health" baloney.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:40 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

My guess is that they wanted to avoid her not showing up on 9/11.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:43 PM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Sending Clinton out to stand around for a couple hours while she's got walking pneumonia strikes me as a suboptimal decision.

She strikes me as the kind of person who works through a fever. I mean, she'd say: I feel ok, and I can't not be there. I'm gonna do this. Honestly, the fainting spell is about 90% less bad than it would've been if she didn't show up on America's Day of Honoring our Fallen Mythopoetic Heroes. You don't skip a 9/11 memorial ceremony 60 days out from an election for any reason and still win the Presidency of the US.
posted by dis_integration at 2:43 PM on September 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

Guys. Guys there's still a fascist out there. I think he's getting oranger.
posted by petebest at 2:44 PM on September 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

There's got to be a way Kaine can work his bad Donald impression "believe me!" into this somehow. "So here we've provided evidence that she's fine. If it were the other candidate, all we'd get is a 'believe me!' I'm not a tax criminal, 'believe me!'. I don't steal money from charities, 'believe me!'."
posted by ctmf at 2:46 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton needs to do a Willy Wonka entrance at the first debate.
posted by dfan at 2:47 PM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yeah, this sucks like an electrolux with all the attachments. I understand trying to keep it under wraps 'cause it would play into Trump's hands, but the flip side is if it comes out, you got serious damage control to deal with.

Dammit Dammit Dammit.
posted by Mooski at 2:48 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Guys. Guys there's still a fascist out there. I think he's getting oranger.

I don't think anybody here is gonna vote for Trumpster because Clinton has pneumonia. (Except maybe clavdivs? you ok man?) But it's now a real story and is probably going to hurt her chances. Because the electorate is shallow and "Clinton is sick" is a lot punchier than "let me tell you all the reasons that Donald Trump is a racist, misogynistic, blowha..." (populace tunes out and goes back to watching Duck Dynasty).
posted by Justinian at 2:51 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Personally I'm relieved that it's something that's generally curable, and well known to the public, not something chronic or mysterious. But that may just be me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:52 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

My grandmother (87) had pneumonia last winter that went undiagnosed for a few weeks because her only symptom was a cough. I've had coworkers in their thirties and forties have the same thing happen -- walk around for several weeks feeling a bit run-down with a little cough, get a check-up, and hey presto, pneumonia. It's so common. Hopefully people with any ability to think for themselves will see the media freak-out for what it is.
posted by palomar at 2:53 PM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

I don't think the narrative will be "Oh, Clinton had pneumonia and will be just fine in a few days." It will be "CLINTON DRAGGED INTO SUV WITH PNEUMONIA, WHAT ELSE ABOUT HER HEALTH IS SHE HIDING".
posted by Justinian at 2:54 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

JCPL: HIGH
posted by Justinian at 2:54 PM on September 11, 2016 [25 favorites]

"Like so many women in America do when they aren't feeling well, she still showed up and DID HER JOB!"
posted by mikelieman at 2:55 PM on September 11, 2016 [52 favorites]

With apologies to the JCPL...

Zachlipton Current Frustration Level: looking for things to hit
posted by zachlipton at 2:55 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

At least it wasn't the boogie-woogie flu.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:55 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Deep breaths everyone. This'll be won on ground game and demographics, neither of which have changed. Heads up, eyes forward, defeat the fascists.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:56 PM on September 11, 2016 [38 favorites]

MSNBC: Trump Adviser, Son Post Image of Trump's 'Deplorables' Featuring White Nationalist Symbol:

Pepe the Frog, a cartoon amphibian, was popularized on the website 4chan, and became associated with the neo-Nazi movement.

Hm. Still HRC's not out free-climbing in Monument Valley so it's hard to pick.
posted by petebest at 2:56 PM on September 11, 2016 [18 favorites]

At least it wasn't the boogie-woogie flu.

I remember more than one Dead Tour where in a few cases the Boogie-Woogie Flu turned into the Rockin' Pneumonia.
posted by mikelieman at 3:00 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Hillary's health is a concern for actual voters. I'm not hearing about it when I knock doors, for instance. I think this may be something that campaign obsessives are talking about and that isn't really registering with the general electorate.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:02 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Diagnosed Friday and when did we find this out.
I'm I kidding, no. She has every right to attend a memorial while Ill and against doctors advice on the tax payer dime...unless attending a 9/11 memorial is something one considers "rest, take it easy". I can understand her bucking that advice but not laurels for super health/have some empathy routine.
I'm angry because I remember the veil that the media shrouded over Reagan which was fucking scary.
posted by clavdivs at 3:02 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pneumonia is not Alzheimer's. FFS.
posted by palomar at 3:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [40 favorites]

Diagnosed Friday and when did we find this out.

Uh, Sunday? Is two days that bad
posted by Justinian at 3:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

She couldn't announce that she had pneumonia because her health insurance company's parking garage records are being audited. Someone who left and got a job next door might be parking for free, so y'know, can't release any medical info. It's the law, people.
posted by XMLicious at 3:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I don't think that's a fair comparison, clavdivs. It's particularly unfair given the disparity in transparency of medical records between the two candidates.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:08 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

clavdivs, does she also need to tell you how often she goes to the loo, and what she does there?
How is this any of our business? And yes, it's the weekend. Give her a break, why don't you.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:08 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Hillary's health is a concern for actual voters. I'm not hearing about it when I knock doors, for instance. I think this may be something that campaign obsessives are talking about and that isn't really registering with the general electorate.

obviously they're not spending enough time hyperventilating in a locked room with cable news on
posted by indubitable at 3:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I hope Secretary Clinton uses a proper American bathroom, thank you.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:11 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

If she'd released a statement prior to today, she'd have been dragged by the press for trying to distract from her deplorables comment.
posted by palomar at 3:11 PM on September 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

I think it's likely that, had no incident occurred, the diagnosis would not have been made public. I'm totally cool with that, especially since her health has been a source of constant speculation and conspiracy theorizing. I don't think it's important to know every time the president gets a cold.
posted by dis_integration at 3:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

I doubt they would have released the diagnosis at all if she had not taken ill this morning.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 3:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

And her campaign was meant to be dark today so as not to distract from 9/11 memorials. She couldn't bail on showing up for any reason without being pilloried. Come on. Try to be intellectually honest here.
posted by palomar at 3:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I've had pneumonia several times, the first when I was fifteen, and my overall health is quite good. It's not a degenerative disease, people. It's basically bronchitis in the lungs. Clinton has good medical care, she'll be fine.

I seriously don't get the fear mongering, or the suggestion there was some massive coverup because it was diagnosed on Friday but announced on Sunday. Both are some serious craziness.
posted by Superplin at 3:13 PM on September 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

It's the Trump family history of early-onset dementia that's especially troubling given his inconsistent statements and episodes of rambling word-salad.
posted by mikelieman at 3:13 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

they're not spending enough time hyperventilating in a locked room with cable news

To be fair, we don't know what Justinian does when the JCPL is high.
posted by chris24 at 3:14 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I had pneumonia in my early fifties and wound up having to sleep in a chair because I couldn't breathe comfortably lying down; lack of sleep plus coughing made it even more exhausting. My doctor described my lungs as "sounding like Rice Crispies" and several times I caught my cat sitting on my chair arm with his ear against my chest, listening; even I could hear it. Anyway, if I had had to stand in the sun and humidity for 90 minutes, while keeping my face composed and my body language solemn, there's no way I would have gotten through it. Hillary's a badass.
posted by carmicha at 3:15 PM on September 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

(when the JCPL is high, perhaps also getting high is the answer? it's working for me, but I'm pretty anxious about the lack of cheez-its in my home now...)
posted by palomar at 3:16 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I hyperventilate in a locked room with cable news on.
posted by Justinian at 3:16 PM on September 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Well CNN is covering this exactly how you would predict
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:17 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I'm stuck in a room with cable news, I make sure to check for possible escape routes.
posted by Yowser at 3:17 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

i hope you at least keep a bucket in the corner
posted by indubitable at 3:17 PM on September 11, 2016

Still milking the first Iraq War, huh Blitzer?
posted by Yowser at 3:19 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is an example of the sort of absolutist/denialist/optimism-bias thinking that some of us are warning about up-thread. You can't allow yourself to be goaded by your enemies into a maximalist position where there's no room to maneuver if circumstances change. It turns out the coughing *was* a concern. The Bad Guys laid down a marker on her health and Our Side played into it. Next time we should respond differently...
posted by gerryblog at 3:20 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some hard-hitting journalism from Wolf Blitzer right there, in that I now want to hit Wolf Blitzer very hard.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

Wolf Blitzer is normally on weekdays, right? Did they call him in special or something? Someone actually thought "you know, this day would be better if it had more Wolf Blitzer in it" and then acted on that feeling?
posted by zachlipton at 3:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sure it was a concern in that "she should take it easy this week and maybe cancel a couple appearances" not "she's clearly unfit for office".
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

think I'll re-read rorgy's comment upthread

MSNBC has locked onto this like it's the story of the century. I fucking give up.
posted by wallabear at 3:26 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

srsly I was entertaining a fantasy earlier about watching 1960's MTP on grandma's tiny B&W TV, while coffee cake was in the oven and bad-ass double-dose Folger's was on the stove. She'd give me a hug & some cake and I'd listen to her grunt and chuckle about "news".

I'm fucking weary and I want to go home, now.
posted by wallabear at 3:31 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

I expect (and hope) Clinton will take some time to recover fully. She needs to bet at her best for the first debate and it is in barely two weeks. Now that the pneumonia thing is public they're taking the hit so there isn't the downside that there might have been if it wasn't public.

But she has to be 100% at that debate.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Keep working to GOTV, everyone. This is not the end. We have to fight this until the last vote is counted.

Or at least until Florida is called.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:34 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I haven't seen a lot of evidence that Hillary's health is a concern for actual voters. I'm not hearing about it when I knock doors, for instance. I think this may be something that campaign obsessives are talking about and that isn't really registering with the general electorate.

I have an ex-coworker who has posted on Facebook about how her concern for Clinton's health as one reason she isn't sure she wants to vote for her. It is a thing.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:38 PM on September 11, 2016

Some hard-hitting journalism from Wolf Blitzer right there, in that I now want to hit Wolf Blitzer very hard.

He's been doing hard-hitting journalism for years.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think anybody here is gonna vote for Trumpster because Clinton has pneumonia. (Except maybe clavdivs...)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:45 PM on September 11, 2016

Has anyone seen my shit? I seem to have lost it.
posted by humanfont at 3:48 PM on September 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

I have pneumonia right now, or am just getting over it I guess. I have spent 95% of my life on my couch for, like, weeks. (I'm all caught up on the election thread! Turns out it's not impossible. You just have to have pneumonia.)

For reference I am forty and healthy and nearly passed out in my climate controlled home multiple times. I seriously can't imagine keeping up a campaign schedule.

For .... further reference, I was not much of a Clinton fan at the start of this interminable campaign season, and despite the conventional wisdom that she's utterly un-charming, she has charmed me utterly. My brain went pretty quickly from campaign panic to really, really wishing that I could bring her some soup.
posted by gerstle at 3:49 PM on September 11, 2016 [53 favorites]

> As to her health, why isn't the press obsessing over the Donald's tsunami of dementia symptoms ? JFHC, he can't make a logically coherent sentence let alone finish one -- he makes a gibberish of gibberish.

> It's the Trump family history of early-onset dementia that's especially troubling given his inconsistent statements and episodes of rambling word-salad.

Seriously.

I'm less and less convinced that Trump's torrent of false statements can simply be explained by his being a bullshit artist who doesn't care about the truth. I think that's part of it, in that he would be unconcerned if he's got something right or not, but I also suspect that a lot of the time he's expressing what he really thinks he remembers: his brain concocts false memories to fill in the gaps when he doesn't remember something accurately, and he just runs with it. That possibility should be a much greater concern than Clinton getting fucking pneumonia. You can't cure dementia with antibiotics, FFS.
posted by homunculus at 3:49 PM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Metafilter: hyperventilating in a locked room with cable news on
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 3:51 PM on September 11, 2016 [25 favorites]

Prediction markets for a Clinton win fell to their lowest since the GOP convention on predictit.org today. So naturally I bought more shares. People say you should buy Trump shares so that if Clinton loses at least you get a payout, and if she wins, you lost a bet but at least the apocalypse was averted. But I'm gonna eat my cake and have it too, by waking up on Nov 9 with a Clinton presidency and a wad of cash.
posted by dis_integration at 3:51 PM on September 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

I have a WaPo subscription on my kindle, and they push updates. Largest update, headline: Clinton has pneumonia, + 4 other stories about her health and how today impacts the race.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:55 PM on September 11, 2016

For .... further reference, I was not much of a Clinton fan at the start of this interminable campaign season, and despite the conventional wisdom that she's utterly un-charming, she has charmed me utterly. My brain went pretty quickly from campaign panic to really, really wishing that I could bring her some soup.

This is an accurate description of my trajectory, also.
The fact that I have no avocados on hand is making me very twitchy. I haven't needed guacamole this badly since the conventions.
posted by Superplin at 3:56 PM on September 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

But she has to be 100% at that debate.

Fonzi will be there, don't worry guys
posted by petebest at 3:56 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey anybody else remember pictures of Reagan's prostate on the evening news?
Good times, good times.
posted by petebest at 3:58 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Damn, now I want guacamole too.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:04 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Okay just watched the clip. Pffft. Whatevs haters.

#ClintonRules
posted by petebest at 4:05 PM on September 11, 2016

Hey anybody else remember pictures of Reagan's prostate on the evening news?

You know, for my money you can never get too much of that sort of thing!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 4:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Superplin is solely responsible for unexplained runs on avocadoes at stores nationwide.
posted by wallabear at 4:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I haven't needed guacamole this badly since the conventions.

I will now be wearing my Guacamole, Fuck Yeah t-shirt for the debates.
posted by chris24 at 4:13 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Someone assure me this isn't the story that gives Trump the presidency, because I feel like I'm going to throw up.
posted by tzikeh at 4:19 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Someone assure me this isn't the story that gives Trump the presidency, because I feel like I'm going to throw up.

If this happened Nov 7 I'd be worried that it would all be over. There's still the debates.
posted by dis_integration at 4:25 PM on September 11, 2016

Ok I'm gonna try to be another voice of non-panic --

1. Prediction markets, although they're the lowest they've been since the GOP convention, are at 73/74. That's only a point drop since before the "basket of deplorables" statement came out.

2. The health conspiracies were always for the dyed-in-the-wool trump supporters. For most middle of the road folks, this isn't really a concern about her competence or "stamina".

3. Attacking on "stamina" when there's an established diagnosis will come off bad, and sexist (and it is). Oh they'll do it, because they're awful people, but it will turn off most people.

4. Someone once said on twitter that the Clintons' superpower is being just secretive enough to bait their opponents into making asses of themselves. I can't think of a better story to do that.

5. Say there was something seriously wrong with her, god forbid -- what then? Are they concern trolling? If she were to drop out due to illness or have a short term, her running mate has very high favorables, and would probably easily beat Trump.

The biggest political downsides to this story are the fact that the illness wasn't disclosed, the fact that there was a conspiracy theory beforehand that's now (kind of) legitimatized, and the fact that focus was taken away from the dumpster fire of bad news from the trump camp.

In fact, if there wasn't already a health conspiracy theory, I bet there'd be theories she faked her illness to change the subject from the deplorables story.
posted by condour75 at 4:25 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wikileaks just took down its "does Hillary have brain cancer" poll, presumably not to look too much like the utter garbage they are.
posted by Artw at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

While I am morbidly enjoying all the new arm-chair physicians birthed fully formed from the head of Trump I feel confident saying they have as much medical acumen as Trump's bearded roadie-for-Foghat doctor which is to say - absolutely none at all. I'm also astounded that upright citizens of the internet are diagnosing a public figure whom they see for a few minutes each day during a heavily edited tv segment with any number of health problems. The doctors I work with will be no doubt thrilled by the news that this is now possible, and I anticipate that we will rapidly move from seeing a GP with our complaints to merely snapchatting a few seconds of ourselves to anyone on the internet since this is apparently the level of medical training now required to provide medical diagnosis and treatment modalities. Truly we are living in the land of the future.

Sarcasm aside I would like to give y'all a tool I use for dealing with people who presume to inform you about their health related knowledge but who are clearly talking out of their ass. And that is to ask them to explain some basic concept of what they are babbling about to you. Because to me, if someone can't even give me a dictionary definition of what they're talking about then I probably don't, for example, want cancer advice from them.

In this specific instance when, inevitably, some incoherent douchenugget starts grandstanding about HRC I will probably say, "Ok but just before we go any further, can you tell me what pneumonia is?" That simple. What is pneumonia? It might seem condescending but when people start going on and on about toxins or magnets or juice cleanses or any other form of crackpottery just stopping them and gently asking a basic question often makes them so flustered that they are unable to continue. And then you can use this valuable time to do something life affirming like petting a cat or eating a cookie, or barring that to throw and smoke bomb and melt into the shadows.
posted by supercrayon at 4:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Honestly? It's a fucking boring Sunday story. It's ridiculous. The news outlets just wish it was accompanied by foaming at the mouth, which they are happy to provide until the next stupid whatever.
posted by wallabear at 4:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Pharma Bro heckles Hillary Clinton outside Chelsea's apartment.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Taaa daaaa!
posted by wallabear at 4:29 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Absolutely she could not bail. This is prime election season and two weeks off could be damaging to the campaign but I was swimming on week two of my bout, so, she'll be fine.

It's like both campaigns resurrected Murray Choitner, paid him in souls and sent him to work.
A paraphrase from a chapter 11, Huey Generis
'Do not defend yourself, and let the public know where you stand. Attack your opponents, and let the public know where they stand, while revealing as little about yourself as possible. Once attention is focused on what voters resent in your opponents, they will be on the defensive. Voters are as likely to decide against candadites and issues as they for them.'

Good day and good luck
posted by clavdivs at 4:32 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Pharma Bro heckles Hillary Clinton outside Chelsea's apartment.

Shkreli will be a perfect fit as Secretary of Health and Human Services in the Trump administration.
posted by homunculus at 4:36 PM on September 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

Pharma Bro heckles Hillary Clinton outside Chelsea's apartment.

What a deplorable piece of absolute shit.

I don't know how to jiujitsu this on a political level but there has got to be some strategy for getting people to spite vote against greasy little turds like this asshole.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:40 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

He lives near by?
posted by clavdivs at 4:45 PM on September 11, 2016

Pharma Bro heckles Hillary Clinton outside Chelsea's apartment.

Okay, that's it. I've got Bill Murray on the phone and Operation Wu Tang Reclamation is a go.
posted by uosuaq at 4:53 PM on September 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

He lives near by?

8 million people live nearby.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:54 PM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Shkreli is part of the alt-right, so Clinton's on it.
posted by Yowser at 4:58 PM on September 11, 2016

It's so weird to unplug from the election shitshow for a couple of weeks and then pop in to hear something like, "Clinton has a health issue at public event," because my reaction basically begins and ends at, "I'm sorry to hear that, I hope she gets well."

Then when I check in on what the media is covering they're all "WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN???" and people are having weird little disconnected thoughts like, "maybe I won't vote for Hillary if she has health issues" without considering how they arrived there or what consequences would come out of a president with health issues or really why they even bother voting.

It's not actually that complicated. They just have to fill in quiet space with their prattle to make money. I was aware of this in an abstract kind of way already, but today feels like a concrete demonstration.
posted by indubitable at 5:02 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Clinton clearly has one foot in the grave. If we don't see her playing Ultimate in full body armor in the next 24 hours this campaign is over, baby.
posted by um at 5:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

The JCPL nearly redlined today and there are two months to go! Perhaps a 48 hour mental health retreat is in order. I have to try to catch up on my ~~drinking~~ reading.
posted by Justinian at 5:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

He lives near by?

Some dude from Vice visits Shkreli's apartment. [old]
posted by porpoise at 5:04 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are there any other good threads for me to read? Maybe something about bed bugs or global warming or a new virulent cancer that's going around? I need something more relaxing than this thread.
posted by Justinian at 5:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

I don't feel at all guilty about hoping Trump just straight up falls off a stage soon. I mean, I was hoping that already anyway.
posted by uosuaq at 5:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

this whole story is Wolf crying wolf. Das Trümpenboöger will tweet something about Mexican robots eating his pants and we'll be back to watching Arizona.
posted by petebest at 5:14 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump in Maryland tomorrow at 1pm, NC at 6pm. (NY at 9pm, obvs)

How does one top a string of incredible fart-lighting stump speeches? More unbelievability? Screech more? Maybe the Nazi-wink-wink is too subtle, amp it up some? Only time will tell! Tune in tomorrow for another thrilling, hair-pulling episode!
posted by petebest at 5:33 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

this whole story is Wolf crying wolf.

I don't know; when it's got Daniel Dale making retweets like this, I think the media is going to dig in. Poor Daniel's fee-fees seem to be hurt that people have been criticizing the media coverage today.
posted by nubs at 5:35 PM on September 11, 2016

Newly released audio reveals Hillary Clinton's reaction to the 9/11 attacks cnn.it/2corQ6U
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:35 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the media is going to dig in.

The NYT public editors story linked above showed they were already on the defensive. No one questions the narrative, especially not bloggers.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:43 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump and 9/11: the lies, exaggerations and eye-popping claims via NYT*

Trump has also claimed to have lost “hundreds of friends” in the attacks, though his campaign has declined to identify any victim whom he knew. On the 12th anniversary of 9/11, he wrote no memorial to the 2,996 people who died, nor to their families.

Instead, he tweeted: “I would like to extend my best wishes to all, even the haters and losers, on this special date, September 11th.”

Wow that's . . . very . . big-handed of you DJ. You write that yourself? Kinda Christmassy tho, innit?

*Aaahhhh just kiddin, no, its from The Guardian. UK press apparently able to link two facts to a logical conclusion.
posted by petebest at 5:45 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Potomac Avenue: "Newly released audio reveals Hillary Clinton's reaction to the 9/11 attacks cnn.it/2corQ6U"

MEANWHILE:

Trump interview on 9/11: "[My building] was the 2nd-tallest in Manhattan... And now it’s the tallest."

posted by Rhaomi at 5:46 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Not sure if this has been shared. A Wonder Woman comic panel from 1948.
posted by wallabear at 5:53 PM on September 11, 2016 [20 favorites]

Newly released audio reveals Hillary Clinton's reaction to the 9/11 attacks cnn.it/2corQ6U

They claim she's "vastly different" today. How?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:54 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Their styles are different, surely, between Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump, but I think both men are truth tellers," Pence said. . .
He added that comparison applies to one of his favorite adjectives to describe Reagan: "Humble."
. . questioned how that word could describe a man with his name on so many buildings, Pence said Trump reveals his "humility" in private.

I'll bet he does Pencey. I'll bet he does.

Trump {announced at the CiC forum} that his plan to combat ISIS would include ordering military generals to put together a plan to defeat the terrorist group in his first 30 days.

That has stood in contrast with statements Trump made last year that he had a "foolproof" plan to defeat ISIS already.

Pence refused to answer whether Trump has shared his secret strategy with his running mate: "I'll keep our private conversations private," he said.

Of course. There's the NDA which Trump's lawyers weirdly insisted he sign in blood.
posted by petebest at 6:01 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump in Maryland tomorrow at 1pm, NC at 6pm.

Baltimore will be faux outreach to African-Americans and their bombed-out urban hellscapes to an audience of white people, Asheville will be... well, who the fuck knows. One protest group wants locals to drive in early and fill up all the downtown lots -- I'm 99% certain the big lot at the venue will be shut for security -- so that all the people coming in from wherever have nowhere to park other than private lots that will probably charge either $5 or $20 per, depending on the owners' political leanings. The tow trucks may be celebrating Christmas early.
posted by holgate at 6:01 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

That 9/11 reaction video is a really good spin tactic from her campaign. It makes her look strong and presidential.

Aside from that, why would the campaign mention her pneumonia? Why couldn't they have said she was overheated and dehydrated and left it at that? These types of gaffes are making me nervous. For Hillary, this should be a run out the clock situation.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 6:04 PM on September 11, 2016

Baltimore will be faux outreach to African-Americans and their bombed-out urban hellscapes to an audience of white peopl

Nope. He's addressing the National Guard Assoc.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:05 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

wallabear: is solely responsible for unexplained runs on avocadoes at stores nationwide.

Er, you know those skyrocketing avocado prices that have been in the news?
...sorry.
posted by Superplin at 6:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Aside from that, why would the campaign mention her pneumonia? Why couldn't they have said she was overheated and dehydrated and left it at that? These types of gaffes are making me nervous. For Hillary, this should be a run out the clock situation.

I refuse to see truth-telling as a gaffe.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [39 favorites]

why would the campaign mention her pneumonia?

Why didn't they Friday? The reaction this morning would've been very different.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:06 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't think that revealing that she had pneumonia was a gaffe. I think it was a decision that transparency would be better than hiding something and having it come out. And it probably would have come out, especially since she's probably going to have to take it easy for at least a couple of days.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

That 9/11 reaction video is a really good spin tactic from her campaign.

Wait, what?
posted by cashman at 6:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

And just to be straightforward - that video was already going around before all this happened. I started watching it.
posted by cashman at 6:09 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Regarding ye olde basket 'o deplorables, unsurprisingly Kellyanne Conway, Trump's manager, said some Trump supporters were "skeeze" & "downright nasty" on the radio earlier this year. Back when she worked for Cruz.
posted by cashman at 6:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

I refuse to see truth-telling as a gaffe.

It's a political campaign that will keep a fascist from being president, transparency can absolutely be a gaffe.

Also, did some more digging, apparently that 9/11 reaction soundbite existed before the fainting. Sorry, I thought it was leaked from the campaign as implicit damage control.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 6:10 PM on September 11, 2016

> Trump family history of early-onset dementia

Just in case this does become a discussion point (I know it has come up before): from my understanding, Trump's father had regular, late-onset Alzheimer's, common to some 95% of cases. Late-onset just means it arises after the age of 65. Early-onset risk is significantly heightened by genes and, hence, family history. It also progresses significantly faster. Around 1/700 people get early-onset Alz. After you hit 65, your odds are 1/14 (yeah). After age 80, it's 1/6. Dementia does not fuck around.

Late-onset doesn't refer to the *stage* of Alzheimer's, which begins at mild memory impairment and progresses from there.

The genetic risk factors are not fully understood, but from my armchair, I'd say Trump's age plays as big a risk factor as anything.
posted by Quagkapi at 6:12 PM on September 11, 2016

Pence said Trump reveals his "humility" in private.

It am Bizarro-humility. Fit in very badly with Bizarro-campaign.
posted by Etrigan at 6:13 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Nobody's more humble than me, folks. Nobody's more humble. I'm the most humble, OK? I'm also really, really rich. I could buy and sell the lot of you - and I wouldn't lose any votes!

We need to be more loving, as a nation. Believe me.
posted by petebest at 6:18 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I suppose that public humility might alienate his base...
posted by Golem XIV at 6:20 PM on September 11, 2016

"Oh, Lord it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way."
posted by holgate at 6:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pence said Trump reveals his "humility" in private.

I gather a lot of guys give them names, but that's a strange choice.
posted by uosuaq at 6:24 PM on September 11, 2016 [47 favorites]

Are there any other good threads for me to read? Maybe something about bed bugs or global warming or a new virulent cancer that's going around? I need something more relaxing than this thread.

A previous election thread had this reassuring post as its neighbor, at the Newer link:
Jellyfish are going to kill us all
No need to worry. The jellies will bring us peace.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 6:28 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

McMuffin (former spook): Trump may have been 'blackmailed' by Putin
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:41 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

McMuffin (former spook): Trump may have been 'blackmailed' by Putin

Huh. Never considered blackmail as a possible reasons for Trump's Putin crush.
Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it ended up being true.
posted by Jalliah at 6:52 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Election Update: just watched A league of Their Own for the 1st time. 7/5 bags of popcorn.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

My sense of incredulity has burned out. I fear this election has done it permanent damage.
posted by procrastination at 7:04 PM on September 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Well, following dis_integration's recent comment, I decided to sign up for PredictIt for the first time. Looks like you can't currently buy shares in Clinton winning because they "have reached the maximum number of traders for this contract." I wish I'd realized that before I deposited money into the service. However, there is still an opening to bet that the Democratic Party wins the 2016 U.S. Presidential Election, and that's at a relative low currently as well. So I got on that train with a pretty small amount of money, just for fun. I guess now I can be even more stressed about the election! But I expect it'll probably pay off.
posted by One Second Before Awakening at 7:09 PM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Save that for whatever boards they have please. People's lives are at stake.
posted by cashman at 7:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

My sense of incredulity has burned out. I fear this election has done it permanent damage.

Wait till the next asshole shows up who actually knows how to harness the demagoguery.
posted by Talez at 7:16 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wait till the next asshole shows up who actually knows how to harness the demagoguery.
posted by Talez at 9:16 PM on September 11

Now you're scaring me. (But I know what you mean. It doesn't seems like things are going to get better in the future even if we win this one.)
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 7:20 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

A slightly better behaved, less conspicuously shallow demagogue could really win this thing next time around. Just a bright shiny shell over the same supremacist engine could go far, I fear.
posted by puddledork at 7:21 PM on September 11, 2016

Pretty sure this was a damned-if-we-do-and-damned-if-we-don't situation for Hillary with regards to announcing the pneumonia diagnosis. She was probably hoping she could make it through today of all days. Unfortunately, the weather this morning was ass. It's hard to breathe as it is in weather that hot and humid. I couldn't stand it either, and I'm half her age, and I don't have pneumonia, and I wasn't standing outside in a suit with whatever protection underneath it.

With Trump's backers' headline-creators focusing so much on Hillary's presumptive health recently, I can't imagine Hillary's team thinking it's a great idea in that atmosphere to just come out and say "Hey, Hillary has pneumonia and will be resting up for a few days" unless they absolutely had to. This is an unfortunate occurrence obviously.
posted by wondermouse at 7:23 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

McMuffin (former spook): Trump may have been 'blackmailed' by Putin

If it were true, the NSA would be able to play the hero and justify all the illegal wiretapping it does, by releasing all the communications he has had with Putin or other members of the Russian mafia. Uncovering an attempted attack on American soil of that kind would be a big win for the intelligence community.

Especially after 9/11, of all days.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 7:24 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Anecdata report from my facebook feed: 2 posts about what a badass Clinton is for campaigning while having pneumonia, one post from a hardcore Bernie bro about how overblown and sexist focussing on Clinton's health is, one get well wish.

I suspect the best spin on this is how strong Clinton must be to have had pneumonia and to still have continued campaigning as hard as she was.

(god that's bloody awkward phrasing)
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:26 PM on September 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

lazugod: "What kind of response is that? "Half your supporters are racist!" "Yeah, but they're hard-working!""

One more pull quote from Adam Cadre's post:

here's his running mate, Mike Pence:

The truth of the matter is that the men and women who support Donald Trump's campaign are hard-working Americans, farmers, coal miners, teachers, veterans, members of our law enforcement community, members of every class of this country who know that we can make America great again.

Let's pause and look at this: Donald Trump's Campaign - does Pence take any ownership, or get any piece, of this campaign? Is he distancing himself from the Trump Train while supposedly being the second in command? Or is he kept a step back, like anyone else who is not Donald himself?

Either way, I really feel what XMLicious wrote on succession planning: She would basically leave an autopilot with a detailed instruction manual behind for her successor, not just a letter. Whereas with Trump all the envelope will contain is a folded photocopy of his butt.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:27 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

A slightly better behaved, less conspicuously shallow demagogue could really win this thing next time around. Just a bright shiny shell over the same supremacist engine could go far, I fear.

This is certainly worrying but the good news is that the demographic hurdles get worse for them with every year that goes by. I think the Trump campaign (and to a lesser extent the way the McCain and Romney campaigns both also had to get in the gutter, albeit to a much lesser degree) will retrospectively look like an extinction burst once the GOP has gotten its act together and figured out how to craft winning presidential-election coalitions again.
posted by gerryblog at 7:28 PM on September 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

If it were true, the NSA would be able to play the hero and justify all the illegal wiretapping it does, by releasing all the communications he has had with Putin or other members of the Russian mafia. Uncovering an attempted attack on American soil of that kind would be a big win for the intelligence community.

Unless they used iMessage or Telegram.
posted by Talez at 7:28 PM on September 11, 2016

"Let's pause and look at this: Donald Trump's Campaign - does Pence take any ownership, or get any piece, of this campaign? Is he distancing himself from the Trump Train while supposedly being the second in command? "

Pence was going to suffer a hugely embarrassing loss in the governor's race in decisively red Indiana (where he has been a comprehensive and embarrassing asshole antagonizing the business community and destroying infrastructure BUT I DIGRESS). Pence joined the Trump campaign solely because it gets him out of a humiliating repudiation of his suckiness by the entire state of Indiana. When Trump loses, it'll be Trump's fault, not Pence's, allowing Pence to save some face and maybe -- maybe -- continue his political life in some form.

Pence is doing whatever Pence can do to distance himself from Trump and lose semi-gracefully so he can shrug and say, "Look man, I tried to make him be normal!" and become a talking head or a lobbyist or some shit like that. Instead of being "Mike Pence, radically failed governor of Indiana."
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:35 PM on September 11, 2016 [31 favorites]

He talked in Detroit, and now he's going to be in Baltimore!?

Hahahahahahahahaha-----

(Yeah I know he addressed/is addressing specific audiences in both cities, but when I saw "he's at MD tomorrow" that above was my reaction before I read anything else.)

(And completely ignoring the pneumonia thing. Had the equivalent of High JCPL for about five seconds until I read a comment from a friend to the effect of "...and that makes Trump a better candidate how?" In other words, hope she feels better, and changes next to nothing about the talking points we have.)
posted by seyirci at 7:39 PM on September 11, 2016

Or is he kept a step back, like anyone else who is not Donald himself?

I'd joke and say that it's stipulated in the contract, but I think it's more in keeping with my comment way upthread: that Pence is presenting a parallel "Donald Trump campaign" in the places he visits that isn't quite as much ~~dog~~train-whistle and mob-fuelling -- I expect that the "hang her" brigade doesn't show up in anything like the same numbers for him -- that provides some plausible deniability for himself. Which makes him complicit, of course.

(The banner image on Trump's Twitter account is still an obvious composite of the two men, if you want to draw anything from that.)
posted by holgate at 7:41 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

(Yeah I know he addressed/is addressing specific audiences in both cities, but when I saw "he's at MD tomorrow" that above was my reaction before I read anything else.)

Doesn't anyone come up to him and say "Uhhhh... Why are we bothering with D+10 Maryland when we're getting our asses handed to us in Virginia and Pennsylvania?"
posted by Talez at 7:54 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't fucking get it. Literally 80 miles north or south, Trump could be doing far more good for his campaign.
posted by Talez at 7:57 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not sure if this has been shared. A Wonder Woman comic panel from 1948.

I really like the enthusiastic little bald dude in the right hand corner
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He goes where people invite him because they do the work in setting it up and probably paying for it. So he walks into the National Guard Association annual conference and doesn't have to do any work but show up, doesn't have to pay for anything, and gets a rally with news coverage out of it. When you're running a concert tour rather than a campaign, why not spend a day talking to fans at a record store, I mean conference. Much less time and effort. The media sure doesn't care. They'll cover anything.
posted by chris24 at 8:07 PM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Clinton has a tough schedule, has been and continues to campaign hard. She had a bad morning, felt crappy, went home early. George Bush the elder puked on the Japanese Prime Minister. George Bush the younger choked on a pretzel and passed out. Stuff happens.
posted by theora55 at 8:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm convinced that nobody in the Trump camp knows about the electoral college. Like, not even that it exists. Never mind optimising it.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Well yeah but be fair that's because they're all Russians.
posted by um at 8:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

Literally 80 miles north or south, Trump could be doing far more good for his campaign.

So it's equidistant between "important battlegrounds", and Local News in every market within 100 miles will treat it as "almost local". Not to mention the fact that every Trump Event is covered by National News, making it a National Event. Locations that fit a Campaign Theme are what counts, plus the people inside his events are already all his while those in the surrounding neighborhoods may consider the 'nuisance' factor against him. I hate to admit that anything Trump and His Deplorables do have method to their madness, but this might.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:16 PM on September 11, 2016

I went to a school that had a cadet program, and in my naïveté thought that the Passing Out Parade was called that because of the inexplicably large number of fit young men soundlessly folding up where they stood, or staggering a short way out of ranks before collapsing on their faces, or buckling slightly and having to be held upright by the guys on either side. Standing still for a prolonged period in warm weather does this to young and old, sick and healthy alike. Not sure how the Queen manages it, as it's basically her job.
posted by um at 8:24 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Couple of beers theory: the MSM is in two codependent relationships. They can't quit Trump, and Hillary can't quit them.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:25 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think it matters where Trump campaigns as long as he has a good audience for TV. He is doing a different kind of campaign based on national celebrity. If he gets coverage in the national news, he doesn't care where he makes his speech. If he makes it in Baltimore, he can be sure they hear about it in Virginia, and Ohio and Florida. It is not based on traditional local politics.

Clinton is doing the more traditional local politicking. This is because she is depending on firing up local volunteers and rubbing shoulders with the local political machines for get out the vote campaigns. Trump is not doing that kind of campaign. People are making a big mistake if they think Trump doesn't know what he is doing. He is bypassing local politics and going straight to the voters nationwide.

It certainly is different and it isn't necessarily wrong. Trump is writing a new book on how to campaign for President. Time will tell how it all works out.
posted by JackFlash at 8:30 PM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Now you're scaring me. (But I know what you mean. It doesn't seems like things are going to get better in the future even if we win this one.)

To me, the most disturbing possibility is: (and I think this has been mentioned above at some point, or on the news somewhere) what if Trump isn't playing to win in the conventional sense, but is doing something more like ST:TNG's Lieutenant Commander Data playing a game against an alien strategic genius and pursuing a draw for the sake of a moral victory?

This wacky campaign schedule he's had, stumping in states that appear to be a poor use of resources, the prophecy of a rigged outcome, just might be evidence of an effort to re-create 2000, so that Clinton wins the electoral college while Trump wins the popular vote. In which case he's basically contriving for our democracy to play a game of Russian roulette.

(Or, the successor fascist candidates Talez is talking about might try to do the same thing.)

The ability of conservatives to ignore the parts of the Constitution they don't like—one I know says that the 14th Amendment's birthright citizenship, affirmed in 1898 when the same court probably wouldn't have permitted women to vote, the majority opinion joined by a justice who in 1905 would publish a book entitled The United States: A Christian Nation, yet my friend asserts that birthright citizenship is "just political correctness"—that ability to disregard the Constitution when it's not to their taste seems like exactly the sort of thing Trump or another would harness to get himself treated as the One True President in disregard of the election results, and then we have ourselves a Pope/Antipope situation.
posted by XMLicious at 8:31 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm convinced that nobody in the Trump camp knows about the electoral college. Like, not even that it exists. Never mind optimising it.

They probably have vague plans that they intend to buy the Electoral College's student list and spam them with offers for usurious loans & credit cards, survival rations, and "collector" "gold" coins.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 8:32 PM on September 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Oh, this is great: Magician Destroys Trump With a Deck of Cards
posted by Joe in Australia at 8:34 PM on September 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I hate to admit that anything Trump and His Deplorables do have method to their madness, but this might.

Yeah. Not that different from what the Clinton campaign has done, especially with Kaine's assignments. It's Early Trump, so assume a Conway teleprompter script in front of a backdrop of military flags, then Asheville gets Late Trump in front of people who've travelled long distances for the full frothing Bannon treatment.
posted by holgate at 8:40 PM on September 11, 2016

I've noticed, both here on metafilter and amongst my peer group, that everyone (including me) assumes Clinton is wearing at least a bulletproof vest under her pantsuits. Is there actually anything to back that up, other than the fact that it seems reasonable?
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 9:38 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The AP has deleted a tweet of video of Hillary Clinton after the 9/11 memorial ceremony as we no longer have distribution rights.
posted by salix at 9:43 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trvmps going to Asheville to see Chauncy Gardner and Presidential hopeful, Anderson Cooper.
posted by clavdivs at 10:02 PM on September 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hillary on 9/11/01

I'm proud she stood by her president.
Oh, Michael Moore has some anger about this illness concealing.

I see no evidence of body armor, with her condition, it may be hindering, like the bubble top or phones.
posted by clavdivs at 10:18 PM on September 11, 2016

Hillary Clinton cancels California trip after pneumonia forces 9/11 ceremony departure
posted by Joe in Australia at 10:19 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is fine.
posted by Yowser at 10:36 PM on September 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

What worries me the most is that I haven't seen any response from the Trump campaign about Clinton's health today.

A sensible adviser would have told Trump to stay quiet about it, since the story about Clinton being weak writes itself, and jumping in will seem cruel, misogynistic, or disrespectful to do on 9/11.

Which leads me to believe that Trump might be listening to a sensible adviser... And if so we're in deep trouble.
posted by mmoncur at 10:51 PM on September 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Probably just in his blood transfusion coma.
posted by Artw at 10:56 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Your theory requires that Trump has a sensible advisor, and is capable of listening to them.
posted by um at 10:57 PM on September 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

The campaigns agreed to go dark for 9/11. I'm expecting a barrage of tweets from Trump by the time I start work tomorrow morning.
posted by palomar at 11:00 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Poll: Unconscious Clinton more fit to be president than Conscious Trump

[fake, but not wrong]
posted by fomhar at 11:03 PM on September 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Your theory requires that Trump has a sensible advisor, and is capable of listening to them.

Trumpe-l'œil...
posted by y2karl at 11:10 PM on September 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I have an ex-coworker who has posted on Facebook about how her concern for Clinton's health as one reason she isn't sure she wants to vote for her. It is a thing.

I don't believe them. No one is voting for Trump because he's healthier. No one.
posted by bongo_x at 11:12 PM on September 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

Well how would we even know Trump is healthier? Everyone seems all omg Clinton wasn't honest or transparent about illness, how dare she! But Trump I guess doesn't need to be either
posted by R343L at 11:16 PM on September 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"All my memories,

gather
round her

Miner's lady,
stranger
to
blue water

Dark and dusty, painted
on the sky
Misty taste of moonshine,
teardrops
in my eye"

-Christopher Walken sings john Denver
posted by clavdivs at 11:21 PM on September 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think people are more worried about Clinton's health because they're thinking "what if she's elected and then she dies."

With Trump the fear is more like "what if he gets elected and he lives. "
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:31 PM on September 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

The campaigns agreed to go dark for 9/11

Yes, and then Trump actually did what he agreed to do.

Even more evidence that he may have a secret Sensible Advisor...
posted by mmoncur at 11:47 PM on September 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have to admit, well before this story I had a niggling worry about Hillary’s age. 68 doesn’t seem particularly old to be president, but give her two terms and she’s up to 76. And we’ve seen how much the job ages people.

Obviously the same applies to Trump, but the list of ‘things about Donald Trump that worry me’ is so crowded with stuff, much of it written in 72pt flashing red letters, that his age barely registers.

The fact that Trump is older than her (and is such a terrible candidate in every other way) probably nullifies it as an issue, but against a different candidate I could see it being a real problem.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's just a campaign freak out. There are two months of stuff left. I don't think this will have much more of an impact than the basket of deplorables thing. Remember how many people were eulogizing Obama after his lackluster first debate in 2012. That was worse than this, and it was also just a campaign freak out.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:20 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

hey, is anybody else really fucking terrified right now?

It's an election where the floor for Trump appears to be hard at above 40. There's a trail being blazed for someone else to put together the same coalition (maybe with Trump's blessing) and then do enough to grab enough of the undecided voters by just not explicitly demonising entire groups. The worrying thing about Trump is that I feel he'd be a lot closer if he had just stuck to racism against African Americans rather then almost every non-white group. He's blazing a trail, and is not that far away from having won whilst being Trump and having run a famously massive dumpster fire of a campaign.

So for now? I still think he'll lose because he's fundamentally alienated major groups, but the real question is what happens in 2020 to the Trump wing of the party.
posted by jaduncan at 1:27 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

So remember Paul Manafort went to work in Ukraine in 2004 for Viktor Yanukovych? That was the campaign where his opponent, Viktor Yushchenko, became suddenly ill and was discovered to be poisoned by dioxin.

You don't think that could have any significance to all the recent health scare talk and the pneumonia issue, right? No, of course. Me neither.

But that it even crossed my mind is probably a sign that I need a break from these threads.
posted by p3t3 at 1:53 AM on September 12, 2016 [29 favorites]

jaduncan: "It's an election where the floor for Trump appears to be hard at above 40. There's a trail being blazed for someone else to put together the same coalition (maybe with Trump's blessing) and then do enough to grab enough of the undecided voters by just not explicitly demonising entire groups."

On the other hand, how much of Trump's support is due to Clinton's sky-high negatives? He's holding on to a lot of grudging Republicans who despise her, and both candidates are well short of 50% due to the unusually high undecided and third-party vote, most of which leans markedly Democratic. Her low favorability is largely due to latent misogyny and/or the decades-long GOP smear campaign against her, but I can't help but feel a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now.
posted by Rhaomi at 2:02 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh dear god, I've never been as sick as I was when I had viral pneumonia. Even after two weeks when I thought I'd gotten over it, doing something as strenuous as shopping made me realize how intensely physically weak I still was. It took me six weeks to truly feel myself again.

And I was a healthy 30-something. My husband then got it and he has an autoimmune disorder and he totally lost the ability to walk within 4 days. And then he was admitted to the ICU.

I feel so incredibly bad for Hillary and I hope this doesn't totally derail the campaign. Talk about worst timing.
posted by threeturtles at 2:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

I can't help but feel a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now.

Couldashouldawoulda. Who knows what this fictitious candidate might be doing? Possibly making a lot more mistakes than HRC. Possibly having more real skeletons in the closet. There is no other candidate. When people say stuff like this it seems very irrational.

Also Trump winning the primary seems intimately connected to HRC being the presumptive D Candidate for the last 2 years.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 2:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]

This election will be a singular test of the character of the electorate, unlike any other.

We're not faced with two qualified candidates with differing philosophies. We're faced instead with a difference in kind of human being.

One candidate proudly flouts every meaningful measure of integrity.

The other has a life-long record of achievement in public service.

All else is detail.

In a normal election, the devil may be in the details. In this one, it's right out front, leering.

Having been subjected to a steady dose of the poison for decades that is now being openly peddled to the public as a panacea, the mainstream media have become numb and paralytic, and have all but failed to respond in any meaningful way to the fact that this difference in kind is the signature fact to be addressed.

Nevertheless, the truth is readily evident, the evidence incontrovertible.

So the question we will be answering in November is, individually and collectively, which kind are we?

Keep faith in your humanity, and let it guide you to action. If each person does that, no matter what kind they are, the result will be just.
posted by perspicio at 3:08 AM on September 12, 2016 [46 favorites]

I think the best framing for this pneumonia incident is:

Clinton the badass shows up and does her job, even with pneumonia, while Trump the germophobe won't even shake hands with people.

Which one is tougher?

Would love to see her people turn this around on Trump the Delicate Flower.
posted by GrammarMoses at 3:37 AM on September 12, 2016 [36 favorites]

Wikileaks deletes Twitter poll asking followers to diagnose Hillary Clinton.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can't help but feel a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now

If it were Sanders, it seems obvious at this point that he'd be running his campaign almost as badly as Trump is, since he seems almost incapable of doing without Weaver's terrible advice, and we'd be sick of hearing about him palling around with Castro (so what that it didn't actually happen) instead of about emails and maybe panicking about low black enthusiasm. If it were O'Malley or Webb or Chaffee... *laughs* Beyond that, you're talking about people where there's basically no information about how they'd deal with a national electorate or run a campaign that large.

*shrug* If we're going to wish for something that can't happen, I'd rather just wish that fewer Americans were gullible idiots with terrible values.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [39 favorites]

@techcrunch The xenophobia on display in this election could hurt U.S. startups
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:54 AM on September 12, 2016

(Lol)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:54 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't help but feel a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now

But who would that be? Sanders? O'Malley? Biden? I don't see it.
posted by octothorpe at 5:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump is not doing that kind of campaign. People are making a big mistake if they think Trump doesn't know what he is doing.

With all due respect to my colleague from the great state of Flash, I disagree. Trump is appearing to run a different kind of campaign - an "Internet strategy" as some apologist, after-the-fact, rushed to describe it. This is not true.

Trump has one source of knowledge he abides by: himself. He knows TV. These two building blocks make up 90% of the campaign strategy, with the remaining 10% comprising GOTV, GOP tie-ins, fundraising, baby-kissing, yelling at Meredith, etc.

W/r/t a campaign for POTUS, the narcissistic reality tv star who has burned through three different campaign management teams has no idea what he's doing. Any impression that he does is through the sheer volume of available information and the intrepid function of the brain to make sense of random events.

Yes, a competent, intelligent evildoer could conceivably leverage those tools, but (a) they haven't and (b) even then it's still a Windows 3.1 tool for a 150-year-old machine.

Trump will not win, what we want is a landslide and a positive resolution to newly-emboldened white supremacists.
posted by petebest at 5:38 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

> I can't help but feel a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now

Candidates Who Fit that Description:

1) Elizabeth Warren
2) Howard Dean circa 1999
3) John Stewart's Hermit Beard
4) Corey Booker
5) Giga-Roosevelt
posted by Tevin at 5:39 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

It's not even 9 am and Trump has:
- said the Fed isn't independent
- called Elizabeth Warren a slur
- complained about debate moderators
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:41 AM on September 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oh go to hell cokie Roberts. You too npr. Calling people out for being bigoted xenophobes is not 'extreme rhetoric'
posted by ian1977 at 5:42 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]

Trump will not win, what we want is a landslide and a positive resolution to newly-emboldened white supremacists.

This. While it's clearly scary facing down a fascist when there's uncertainty, things that aren't uncertain are Ds' huge demographic, electoral, and organizational advantages. Keep positive, keep working, and let's get the biggest win we can, get the Senate, get the Supreme Court for a generation.
posted by chris24 at 5:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

Calling people out for being bigoted xenophobes is not 'extreme rhetoric'

I mean, that would only be considered 'extreme rhetoric' in a nation where bigoted xenophobia were the norm, right?
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [18 favorites]

Neeeeeeewwww threaddddd pleeeeeaseee
posted by agregoli at 5:44 AM on September 12, 2016 [6 favorites]

Giga-Roosevelt

Mecha-Nader
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'd settle for Insta-Ike at this point.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:46 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is anyone working on a new thread? This one has gotten so ornery that it it slowed to a crawl right before it blinked on and off and then told me to eat a bag of dicks.
posted by Tevin at 5:47 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

On second thought, no, I wouldn't. I'm kind of done with conservative white guys being in charge of everything even if they are purportedly likable.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:48 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mecha-Nader

Zombie Eugene Debs
posted by entropicamericana at 5:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mecha-Nader

Donald Trump is UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED! Even standing still!

*knocks down Trump Tower*
posted by XMLicious at 5:50 AM on September 12, 2016 [11 favorites]

>Trump claims he helped "a little bit" to clear rubble/look for survivors on September 11, 2001

He probably rescued some boxes of play-doh.
posted by farlukar at 5:52 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

*knocks down Trump Tower*

*Eats all nukes*
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:01 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

CIA Director Pushes Back On Trump Claims About Intelligence Briefings

"I know the briefers that have been briefing the candidates. They are the quintessential professional intelligence officers. They do their work very well. And they know, as professionals, that they are to deliver substance," Brennan said on CBS' "Face the Nation" when asked about Trump's comments.

"We don’t comment on policy. We don’t give policy recommendations," Brennan added. "So I am fully confident that they comported themselves with the utmost professionalism and demonstrated their real breadth and depth of intelligence capabilities."
posted by chris24 at 6:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

@amandahess

shoutout to 2008 when the New Republic ran a cover calling Hillary Clinton crazy
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:03 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'll work on a new thread, give me a few minutes.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:09 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Dont overexert yrself tho we need you healthy for election night.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [12 favorites]

Got a new thread about ready to go.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:11 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I suppose I should be grateful that the blisteringly stupid health story seems to have distracted the media from the blisteringly stupid "deplorables" nontroversy, but come on -- did Trump's campaign really have the stones to complain that Clinton wasn't being politically correct?!
posted by Gelatin at 6:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump’s ‘outreach’ isn’t working. And he’s rapidly running out of time.

"When asked if they think Trump “is or is not biased against women and minorities,” 60 percent of Americans say he is — the same number as in the August Post-ABC poll and up four percent from the July poll."

"The demographic breakdown on that question looks even worse for Trump. 66 percent of women think he is biased. So do 75 percent of Hispanics and 77 percent of African Americans; 59 percent of independents answer in the affirmative, including 69 percent of female independents. Even 37 percent of self-described conservatives see him as biased — a strikingly high number in such a polarized electorate."

"And in the Post-ABC poll, college-educated whites are not buying what Trump is selling. Fifty-seven percent of college-educated whites say the GOP nominee is prejudiced, including 61 percent of college-educated white women. At this point, the only group of voters that doesn’t think Trump is biased is white men without a college degree (and even 38 percent of them say he is). "
posted by chris24 at 6:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Her low favorability is largely due to latent misogyny and/or the decades-long GOP smear campaign against her, but I can't help but feel a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now.

It feels very odd how much push-back this statement is getting in this thread. It was made specifically relating to the question: what happens in a future election when some GOP candidate taps into the same white supremacist / misogynist feelings as Trump, but does it slightly less obviously and with slightly more skill? I don't think it's irrational, nor do I think it warrants the knee-jerk "oh yeah, well who else could we have other than Hillary, huh?!" reactions.

You don't have to agree with the treatment of Hillary Clinton by the press and the right-wing to nonetheless be aware that she occupies a very unique position of hate within the GOP, and a very unique position as a target of a lot of media obsession with taking her down. Trump has done a lot to alienate even the GOP base at times, and I have seen firsthand that for many die-hard GOPers, the one thing preventing them from feeling like they can vote against Trump is that the other choice is the one candidate they've been treating like the literal devil for about 30 years. That's an advantage that a post-Trump candidate trying to follow in his footsteps won't have.
posted by tocts at 6:12 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

538 Polls-only: HRC 70%. Nowcast: 74%
posted by petebest at 6:13 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

tocts, you're talking about 2020 and beyond, but the comment that is eliciting reactions says "a candidate with less baggage would be wiping the floor with Trump right now." Talking about future elections and fascist candidates vs. hypothetical Ds is fine, but this comment was very clearly referring to Clinton v Trump 2016.
posted by chris24 at 6:16 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

The pushback is because she is (as far as we know) wiping the floor with Trump already.

Let's hear these smart pronouncements in November, if she loses, or even barely wins, we can hear about why she's a bad candidate like every wannabe pundit tries to say. If she crushes and Ds take back the Senate though, hopefully we will hear some apologies from people who were talkin out their necks for 2 years.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

It's not even 9 am and Trump has:
- said the Fed isn't independent
- called Elizabeth Warren a slur
- complained about debate moderators

So, it's Monday is what you're saying.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

Random end-of-thread thought:

Why is it that the people who think government is useless, corrupt and usually engaged in frivolous, wasteful pursuits are the same people who totally believe that Congress has ever had a good reason to investigate the Clintons beyond grudges?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:23 AM on September 12, 2016 [26 favorites]

In high school JROTC, we stood inspections in those lovely Army green wool uniforms: formal blouse and trousers, plus a hat (lined in plastic to better capture body heat), and even gloves. Outside was OK, but Minnesota winters meant that most of the year it was in the gymnasium.

Plenty of healthy high school athletes keeled over. No one was allowed to budge to move them -- much less try to catch them -- unless an instructor ordered them to do so. A giant of a boy in my class named Sean Devine -- well over six feet tall, and a fine pitcher on a very good baseball team -- once collapsed and his body nearly reached the people in the line behind him; his head bounced twice and it sounded like that hollow wood block you got to play in third grade music class.

One instructor, a cylindrical man named SGT Stock, use to stand up in the bleachers of the gymnasium to watch people collapse. "MAN DOWN" he would blare -- which everyone already knew from the unpleasant, golfbag-down-a-flight-of-stairs noise that a big kid wearing a bunch of medals makes when they hit the parquet.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:30 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've got a FPP ready to go, unless tivalasvegas wants to do it.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:30 AM on September 12, 2016

Your last piece of cognitive dissonance for the thread.

Kyle Griffin ‏@kylegriffin1
On @Morning_Joe, Kellyanne Conway says Clinton is not transparent, minutes later dodges question on Trump's taxes.

posted by Talez at 6:31 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

First Post Past The Post Passes!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:34 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

First Post Past The Post Passes!

This is why we need Instant Posting Posts.
posted by Talez at 6:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

lol

#NextPost
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:36 AM on September 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

oh good, i was just about to crack wise about nobody blaming Russia for Clinton's health scare yet, but I see that reality has once again outpaced comedy
posted by indubitable at 6:42 AM on September 12, 2016

Oh bloody hell.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:57 AM on September 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Dont overexert yrself tho we need you healthy for election night.

I got a fortune cookie the other day that didn't have a fortune in it, and when I asked facebook what that meant my friends all said I am probably already dead

so, not to worry, I'll be there.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:00 AM on September 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

I wonder how Giga-Roosevelt fares at the ball sucking
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:06 AM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: Just a bright shiny shell over the same supremacist engine.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2016

waitingtoderail: Wikileaks deletes Twitter poll asking followers to diagnose Hillary Clinton.

Is it just me or does Wikileaks running Twitter polls make the site feel more like a random forum site than anything else? "Who r u voting for? 1- Hillary 2- Donald 3- Gary 4- Jill 5- Harambe 6- DeezNuts 7- YrMom 8- YrGrannie 9-RoboReagan 10- Hitler Clone" "Lol, wherez moot?" (Previous poll: "whatz r most l33t l34k?" winner: YrMom)
posted by filthy light thief at 7:33 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

From Michael Arnovitz, the author of 'The Most Thorough, Profound, and Moving Defense of Hillary Clinton' that was linked above:

OK here’s my first and hopefully last take on this whole “Basket of Deplorables” fuss (FB post):

1) I don’t know whether Clinton or one of her speechwriters came up with this name, but it’s weird and incredible. It kind of sounds like a movie made by Sergio Leone and Will Ferrell.

2) No, this is not Hillary’s “47% moment”, although many on the right will try to spin it that way. Trump in particular is trying to spin it that way. Which is a bit ironic, since at the time Romney made the statement Donald Trump was absolutely insistent that Romney should not apologize.

3) Romney made his comments at a fundraiser that was closed to the press. Clinton made her comments at a fundraiser open to the press. Unlike Romney, she was not hiding anything. In fact she has made numerous public comments, and at least one major speech, addressing the racism and bigotry inherent in Trump’s campaign and among many of his supporters. Her views on this are well known.

4) Romney denigrated working-class, blue-collar people whose vote he was trying to win. Clinton knows she will not get the votes of the people she insulted, and is not even attempting to get their support.

with 5 additional points at the link.
posted by palindromic at 7:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

I got a fortune the other day that said "Don't let the past and useless details choke your existence." #emails
posted by knuckle tattoos at 8:45 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

New thread! Honestly, it's kind of draining.
posted by leahwrenn at 9:19 AM on September 12, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh goody. A friend appears to have a FB friend who is a legit Trump "Clinton-belongs-in-Guantanamo-Bay" supporter and is SUPER pissed about the basket of deplorables comments. This should be fun. *wades in*
posted by threeturtles at 11:18 AM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

New thread! Honestly, it's kind of draining.

I should make one some day, so I can legit say that "New thread! Honestly, it's kind of Dwayneing."

:D

Yeah, I'll see myself out.
posted by spinifex23 at 12:53 PM on September 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just canceled my NYTimes subscription - that's another $7.50 a month (never cancelled the student rate plan, sorry not sorry) for Hillary! Or for the WaPo. Haven't decided yet.

(whoops, thead refresh fail)
posted by R a c h e l at 4:49 PM on September 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I made it to the bottom of this thread!

'Basket of Deplorables' is an incredible piece of rhetoric.

Who puts themselves in the deplorables basket? Clinton didn't put anyone in that basket. She just pointed out that there's two baskets: One for sane R's that she's reaching out towards and one for deplorables. The deplorables are self-selecting (which is sick and a surprise-upon-consideration-actually-not-surprising) and by doing so actually help everyone else confirm their placement in the other basket. People who want to stand up and howl about being called deplorable are the first to have made the connection between themselves and the categorization. There's bound to be—there's just got to be—a few of them for whom the cognitive dissonance will prompt some introspection and maybe even change, and that's dandy. But in the meantime we've got a bunch of deplorable people showing everyone how they stand apart.
posted by carsonb at 8:39 AM on September 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton's even set herself up to take Trump out of the deplorables basket.

Maybe in her acceptance speech? "When I'm President of the United States, Donald, I will be your president too." [Wishful thinking.]
posted by carsonb at 9:39 AM on September 13, 2016

Who puts themselves in the deplorables basket?

Anyone who doesn't want TO GET THE HOSE AGAIN.
posted by phearlez at 12:16 PM on September 13, 2016

I've been watching House of Cards lately and even that feels like a Nostalgic Remember Back When

I never thought I would get to say this, but in a few short years explaining to someone who never watched it until then what watching house of cards was like before this election... Is going to sound like when someone talks about how signicant Star Trek felt in the 60s, or something.

I'm actually sort of scared of what "woah did they just really?!?" political tv drama is going to have to do so that it can even feel remotely edge of your seat after this.
posted by emptythought at 3:56 PM on September 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Congratulations on your white penis" and then ignore them.

Can we not with this? I mean, do we collectively care about sikkk burns or not do we care about not being shitty. It's a pithy quip, but it's also super cissexist and honestly makes me really uncomfortable seeing it tossed around so much on here when I have friends who are consistently hurt by cheap penis = man jokes, which are pretty often from ~progressives~

There's plenty of funny ways to say congrats on being a white dude without being up genitals. And I was actually kinda sad when I heard john oliver pop that one off because I knew It had meme power.
posted by emptythought at 9:25 AM on September 14, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's plenty of funny ways to say congrats on being a white dude without being up genitals.

That's the point of it, though. It's saying "You are a Caucasian-presenting cis-male-presenting person who is utterly ignorant of the privilege accrued to that status and the trials faced by people who do not have that status."
posted by Etrigan at 9:40 AM on September 14, 2016 [5 favorites]

Have we gotten to the Kim Jong Un bromance yet or is that next week ?
posted by y2karl at 10:52 AM on September 14, 2016

I have no issue with um taking issue with people using penis = dude. But the "congrats on your white penis" saying is explicitly about cishet white male privilege. Trans folks almost certainly wouldn't have the same privilege and sure wouldn't be unaware of the nature of privilege.
posted by phearlez at 12:23 PM on September 14, 2016 [7 favorites]

There's plenty of funny ways to say congrats on being a white dude without being up genitals.
posted by beefetish at 11:34 AM on September 22, 2016 [1 favorite]

jesus christ, why do i even bother
posted by beefetish at 9:23 AM on September 23, 2016 [1 favorite]

For the amusement value?
posted by happyroach at 9:46 AM on September 23, 2016

This might be a good thread to dig up a brief discussion on debate reform (starts at about 28:15) that was part of a recent episode of the Freakonomics podcast.
posted by Rykey at 8:59 PM on September 26, 2016

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