The Cleveland Team
October 17, 2016 9:06 AM Subscribe
At the risk of both seeming to troll and / or derail - what about the Edmonton Eskimos? When my family had the privilege of living in Canada I continued to refer to Inuit as eskimos but my grade 3 son told me that the latter term was offensive.
I am totally down on changing the Washington NFL team name and any other similar name including those of Chicago's NHL and Cleveland's MLB sports franchises.
posted by Charles_Swan at 9:15 AM on October 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
I am totally down on changing the Washington NFL team name and any other similar name including those of Chicago's NHL and Cleveland's MLB sports franchises.
posted by Charles_Swan at 9:15 AM on October 17, 2016 [12 favorites]
Next: the Chicago Blackhawks
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:17 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:17 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
At the risk of both seeming to troll and / or derail - what about the Edmonton Eskimos?
Also being protested.
posted by Etrigan at 9:22 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also being protested.
posted by Etrigan at 9:22 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Nope, Charles_Swan, there is also a protest against the Eskimos name.
Maybe it's because they are beyond the scope of Ontario legislation, which is 2/3 of the courts and tribunals he is appealing to.
Although I have a friend who is from the US and considers herself Eskimo and strongly argued when studying in Canada that Inuit is distinct and different from her background. She said she got into quite a few debates about this in Canada. Not sure I am doing her justice, but this blog backs her up.
posted by chapps at 9:22 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's because they are beyond the scope of Ontario legislation, which is 2/3 of the courts and tribunals he is appealing to.
Although I have a friend who is from the US and considers herself Eskimo and strongly argued when studying in Canada that Inuit is distinct and different from her background. She said she got into quite a few debates about this in Canada. Not sure I am doing her justice, but this blog backs her up.
posted by chapps at 9:22 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I find the name that Cleveland has chosen to represent their baseball team to be abhorrent. I hate that this team (along with Washington, Chicago, etc.) continue to employ an outdated and obviously racist caricature as a symbol. But I worry about how this might be manipulated to challenge other representations/symbols in the future for other individuals or businesses.
Maybe I'm being overly cautious and this concern is unwarranted. Maybe there's no chance of this ever really impacting the general public or a rational thinking human being who understands how offensive these mascots truly are. But, I've seen how the legal system will often manipulate a legal precedent so that it can be abusive towards another party at a future date.
I know that the article mentions this would not impact individuals who choose to wear the team clothing.
posted by Fizz at 9:23 AM on October 17, 2016
Maybe I'm being overly cautious and this concern is unwarranted. Maybe there's no chance of this ever really impacting the general public or a rational thinking human being who understands how offensive these mascots truly are. But, I've seen how the legal system will often manipulate a legal precedent so that it can be abusive towards another party at a future date.
I know that the article mentions this would not impact individuals who choose to wear the team clothing.
“Aaron Lazarus, a spokesperson for Rogers Communications, said in a statement that broadcasting the game without displaying the team name or logo “on the field, in the stands and in the stadium” would be “virtually impossible,” although Fuller said the application to the courts doesn’t include barring fans from carrying paraphenlia with the logo or team name.”Would love someone with more legal knowledge of free speech/expression laws (especially in relation to businesses) in Canada to chime in.
posted by Fizz at 9:23 AM on October 17, 2016
Thank you!! Very helpful, and I hope to make clear that I realize that Edmonton and Toronto are different jurisdictions, I was more curious about the scope of potential and actual protests.
posted by Charles_Swan at 9:24 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Charles_Swan at 9:24 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
A recent success story along these lines in Ontario is the renaming of the Nepean Redskins to the Nepean Eagles after a campaign started by Ian Campeau (a founding member of indigenous DJ crew A Tribe Called Red). Campeau filed a human rights complaint on behalf of his 5 year old daughter who, if she wanted to play youth football in their area, would have been playing for the "Redskins".
"People are definitely awakening to to the idea of how wrong it is. Slowly but surely the tide seem to have turned within the last three years," Campeau said, admitting he had to have his own awakening, too. "I grew up wearing all of it, Cleveland Indians stuff and Redskin stuff. I latched onto it because it was the only thing within pop culture that represented me. I latched onto it because I never really had much positive role models that represent my demographic."posted by Secret Sparrow at 9:57 AM on October 17, 2016 [18 favorites]
But as a grown-up with his own child, he came to see how dehumanizing it can be. "It's being applied and normalized within society," he said.
"All these missing and murdered women, and these fires that are killing people all over the place, we're not seen as human beings right away. We're seen as cartoon characters. So until we're taken seriously and seen as human beings and not these ancient relics or ridiculous stereotypes, we won't be taken seriously for these quote-unquote more important issues. But to me this is of the most utmost importance.
"Suicide rates within indigenous communities are the highest in the world," he adds, "so perpetuating this idea of being less worthy is killing our kids."
I get such a visceral feeling of shame and embarrassment every time I walk past someone in a "Chief Wahoo" t-shirt (and, since I'm in central Ohio, that happens pretty often). I don't understand how something as blatantly, patently, unquestionably, irredeemably racist can be the agreed upon and celebrated mascot of a professional sports team. Leaving aside the question of Native Americans as mascots, it's a red face caricature. I hope that they get this injunction and it helps spur the Indians to stop using the "mascot," if not change the team name.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:02 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 10:02 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Next: Chicago Blackhawks
I have neither the personal connection nor the inclination to claim zero potential problems with the Blackhawks or their logo, but there's no way they are comparable to an organization whose name is an active racial slur and performs the gross war chants and "tomahawk" motion thing.
The team is named for the founder's Army division, which was in turn named for a real person, Black Hawk, who was a Sauk and Fox war chief and led Native American forces against the US in the War of 1812, the Black Hawk War and various other skirmishes up to the 1830s. The Black Hawk war was important both because it was where Lincoln saw military action, and because it set the terrible precedent for how the US would continue to pressure Indians off of their land.
He was also the first Chief to publish an autobiography.
All of this did indeed happen in no small part in Illinois, and involving Lincoln no less, so I've viewed it in one way as a reference to an interesting and important piece of local/national history that even to some extent calls attention to both a relatively little-known badass, the anti-colonial interests he fought for, and even subverts the narrative of the Great Emancipator. In the 1920s no less.
That said, the logo appears to have little or no relation to any of the portraits we actually have of Black Hawk. I'd be happy for the logo to change either to something specifically representing Black Hawk, or to something like this logo that appeared to get some traction a while ago. Either way, from my relatively myopic viewpoint, I haven't seen very much Native pushback against the Blackhawks for whatever reason.
posted by cmoj at 10:05 AM on October 17, 2016 [23 favorites]
I have neither the personal connection nor the inclination to claim zero potential problems with the Blackhawks or their logo, but there's no way they are comparable to an organization whose name is an active racial slur and performs the gross war chants and "tomahawk" motion thing.
The team is named for the founder's Army division, which was in turn named for a real person, Black Hawk, who was a Sauk and Fox war chief and led Native American forces against the US in the War of 1812, the Black Hawk War and various other skirmishes up to the 1830s. The Black Hawk war was important both because it was where Lincoln saw military action, and because it set the terrible precedent for how the US would continue to pressure Indians off of their land.
He was also the first Chief to publish an autobiography.
All of this did indeed happen in no small part in Illinois, and involving Lincoln no less, so I've viewed it in one way as a reference to an interesting and important piece of local/national history that even to some extent calls attention to both a relatively little-known badass, the anti-colonial interests he fought for, and even subverts the narrative of the Great Emancipator. In the 1920s no less.
That said, the logo appears to have little or no relation to any of the portraits we actually have of Black Hawk. I'd be happy for the logo to change either to something specifically representing Black Hawk, or to something like this logo that appeared to get some traction a while ago. Either way, from my relatively myopic viewpoint, I haven't seen very much Native pushback against the Blackhawks for whatever reason.
posted by cmoj at 10:05 AM on October 17, 2016 [23 favorites]
I went to an Atlanta Braves game in August and I can't believe that people still do the tomahawk chop. It's soooooo racist.
And Chief Wahoo is appalling too. Say what you will about the football team from Washington DC, but at least their logo isn't a blatant example of racist caricature. I know that the baseball team from Cleveland is trying to phase out CW to a certain extent, but when you have an image like that on your hats and uniforms, it really isn't right, especially when they use alternative designs that aren't offensive (a simple "C" on their caps, for instance).
posted by Fister Roboto at 10:11 AM on October 17, 2016
And Chief Wahoo is appalling too. Say what you will about the football team from Washington DC, but at least their logo isn't a blatant example of racist caricature. I know that the baseball team from Cleveland is trying to phase out CW to a certain extent, but when you have an image like that on your hats and uniforms, it really isn't right, especially when they use alternative designs that aren't offensive (a simple "C" on their caps, for instance).
posted by Fister Roboto at 10:11 AM on October 17, 2016
Don't see mention of it in this article but The Star ran a brief piece last week about Blue Jays' announcer Jerry Howarth's longstanding refusal to say the team's name on the air (along with the Braves and other stock racist terms of the time like "powwow on the mound" etc) since receiving a letter after the 1992 series.
posted by Lorin at 10:12 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Lorin at 10:12 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
"something like this logo that appeared to get some traction a while ago."
Looks like he sold the rights to another hockey team already...
posted by howling fantods at 10:13 AM on October 17, 2016
Looks like he sold the rights to another hockey team already...
posted by howling fantods at 10:13 AM on October 17, 2016
Both the name and logo for the Blackhawks always seemed pretty classy from an uninformed non-US viewpoint back when I still followed NHL. The Redskins' logo doesn't appear actively offensive either, but their name really has to go. In both cases, I will naturally defer to Native Americans to be the judges of whether they are appropriate and respectful or not ("Redskins" obviously isn't). But this is the first time I'm seeing that Indians logo and holy effing shit WHAT? That is still a thing in 2016?
posted by jklaiho at 10:16 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by jklaiho at 10:16 AM on October 17, 2016
"Blue Jays' announcer Jerry Howarth's longstanding refusal to say the team's name on the air."
Do a lot of people actually listen to the radio broadcast of the games? If you're in Toronto and watching on TV you get TBS's shitty broadcast instead.*
* at least for the post-season games
posted by howling fantods at 10:16 AM on October 17, 2016
Do a lot of people actually listen to the radio broadcast of the games? If you're in Toronto and watching on TV you get TBS's shitty broadcast instead.*
* at least for the post-season games
posted by howling fantods at 10:16 AM on October 17, 2016
Do a lot of people actually listen to the radio broadcast of the games? If you're in Toronto and watching on TV you get TBS's shitty broadcast instead.
I'm not sure if he still does, but growing up my dad always watched baseball on mute with a radio sitting next to him playing the radio broadcast. Apparently the announcers are way better.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:18 AM on October 17, 2016 [19 favorites]
I'm not sure if he still does, but growing up my dad always watched baseball on mute with a radio sitting next to him playing the radio broadcast. Apparently the announcers are way better.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:18 AM on October 17, 2016 [19 favorites]
There are ways to do this correctly. Florida State, Central Michigan, both use the name of a Native American tribe for their sports teams - Seminoles and Chippewas, respectively - but unlike most collegiate and professional sports organizations that have used Native imagery, both of these universities do so with the approval of the specific tribes referenced. I don't know if there is an authoritative list of teams with names approved by tribal leaders, these are the only two that sprang to mind. There are a lot more that have changed the names based on feedback - despite alumni grumbling and etc., it's really not that hard to change to a non-offensive mascot. I remember when Miami University Ohio changed from their old racially-charged name to the "RedHawks" in 1997, based in large part on feedback from the Miami Tribe, and aside from the logo change, there was zero negative impact on anyone. Our team still played against their team, the world didn't end, and good will was generated. It's far better to choose to do the right thing, instead of being forced to do it. Like Cleveland and Washington will eventually be forced to do.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:24 AM on October 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 10:24 AM on October 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
My husband prefers to listen to his baseball on the radio rather than watching it on TV. He grew up on a farm and listened to the games while he did his chores. He says he sees the whole game very clearly in his head. Jerry Howarth is an excellent announcer for radio baseball.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:28 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 10:28 AM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think I'd be happier with just not having human mascots, even in situations like the Seminoles where they nominally have approval.
Also, I do the same thing Pope Guilty's dad did/does for Cubs games, especially national broadcasts. The national broadcasters are morons, and their commentary is always aimed at the LCD of fans. Which is understandable, but I don't want to listen to Joe Buck's boring, mediocre call and with the radio guys, I don't have to.
posted by protocoach at 10:35 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, I do the same thing Pope Guilty's dad did/does for Cubs games, especially national broadcasts. The national broadcasters are morons, and their commentary is always aimed at the LCD of fans. Which is understandable, but I don't want to listen to Joe Buck's boring, mediocre call and with the radio guys, I don't have to.
posted by protocoach at 10:35 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Would you also be against the Minnesota Vikings? Or Buccaneers, Raiders, Pirates, Patriots? I think the idea is that we're against human mascots that specifically caricature and defame traditionally persecuted minorities. Though one wonders where the Fighting Irish fit in.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2016
...but I don't want to listen to Joe Buck's boring, mediocre call...
Those are probably the kindest words I've ever read leveled at Joe Buck's on-air talent.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
Those are probably the kindest words I've ever read leveled at Joe Buck's on-air talent.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2016 [9 favorites]
I get such a visceral feeling of shame and embarrassment every time I walk past someone in a "Chief Wahoo" t-shirt (and, since I'm in central Ohio, that happens pretty often). I don't understand how something as blatantly, patently, unquestionably, irredeemably racist can be the agreed upon and celebrated mascot of a professional sports team. Leaving aside the question of Native Americans as mascots, it's a red face caricature. I hope that they get this injunction and it helps spur the Indians to stop using the "mascot," if not change the team name.
To be fair, the Cleveland Indians have taken steps to phase out Chief Wahoo. It's just the red block-C for Cleveland on the hats now, for example.
Of course, Chief Wahoo is also amazingly racist, making the Redskins logo look downright dignified by comparison.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:46 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
To be fair, the Cleveland Indians have taken steps to phase out Chief Wahoo. It's just the red block-C for Cleveland on the hats now, for example.
Of course, Chief Wahoo is also amazingly racist, making the Redskins logo look downright dignified by comparison.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:46 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Would you also be against the Minnesota Vikings? Or Buccaneers, Raiders, Pirates, Patriots? I think the idea is that we're against human mascots that specifically caricature and defame traditionally persecuted minorities. Though one wonders where the Fighting Irish fit in.
To be honest, this isn't a fully fleshed out view; I am a Notre Dame fan and my family originated in Ireland and I don't find it offensive and I'm not sure we should get rid of that mascot. But I do think human mascots open up issues that animals don't create.
Those are probably the kindest words I've ever read leveled at Joe Buck's on-air talent.
Oh, have no fear, I have a far more accurate opinion, but I tend to reserve expressing that for when I'm actually listening to him.
posted by protocoach at 10:50 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
To be honest, this isn't a fully fleshed out view; I am a Notre Dame fan and my family originated in Ireland and I don't find it offensive and I'm not sure we should get rid of that mascot. But I do think human mascots open up issues that animals don't create.
Those are probably the kindest words I've ever read leveled at Joe Buck's on-air talent.
Oh, have no fear, I have a far more accurate opinion, but I tend to reserve expressing that for when I'm actually listening to him.
posted by protocoach at 10:50 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's one take from The Gazette: "Why ‘Braves' are racist and ‘Vikings' are not"
posted by Apocryphon at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Lazarus also said that the company understands “the Cleveland name and logo is a concern for a number of Canadians,” but added, “the playoff series between the Jays and Cleveland is also significantly important to millions of passionate baseball fans across Canada. Punishing these fans by blocking the broadcast of the games doesn’t seem like the right solution.”Wow! Just; Wow! IE: People performing in Blackface is a concern for a number of Canadians; but lots of people want t want it so punishing the fans by not broadcasting this blackface play doesn't seem like the right solution. /hamburger
I think Douglas Cardinal would like Rogers to not perpetuate the offensiveness and would be mostly happy at this point if the announcers didn't use the team name; and the offensive logos and names were not part of the official team presence. An offensive jersey in the background behind home plate isn't ideal but it also isn't the focus of the complaint.
Also with all the tech out there today are broadcasters really not able to blur logos in real time?
Charles_Swan: "When my family had the privilege of living in Canada I continued to refer to Inuit as eskimos but my grade 3 son told me that the latter term was offensive. "
Calling Inuit Eskimos is offensive; calling Eskimos Eskimos isn't. The team name is problematic mostly for other reasons though.
Apocryphon: "Would you also be against the [...] Buccaneers, Raiders, Pirates"
Hey, if you want to name your team after no fooling criminals more power to you.
posted by Mitheral at 10:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Redskins can keep the name, just change the mascot to a peanut or a potato.
posted by jetsetsc at 10:56 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by jetsetsc at 10:56 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
Sadly, there's a lot of hostility among Clevelanders to changing the name / logo. As an example: the reddit home of Cleveland baseball is r/WahoosTipi. When it was brought up that that's a horrible name, and that r/indians already redirected there, reddit responded as reddit often does. GV Art, who makes a number of Cleveland-centric shirts, sells a Keep the Chief shirt, that's sadly common at Cleveland games.
Tomahawk chops / headdresses & redface at games isn't common, and I think that's partially due to the team trying to quietly drop the mascot, but it still happens.
posted by miguelcervantes at 10:59 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Tomahawk chops / headdresses & redface at games isn't common, and I think that's partially due to the team trying to quietly drop the mascot, but it still happens.
posted by miguelcervantes at 10:59 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've seen a lot of people in Chief Wahoo apparel wandering around Columbus during the postseason.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:59 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by ChuraChura at 10:59 AM on October 17, 2016
Yeah, I've been rooting for Toronto because their name isn't offensive; otherwise I don't really have a dog in the ALCS fight.
posted by jeffamaphone at 11:03 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffamaphone at 11:03 AM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of surprised this hasn't trickled-down into triple-A ball any more than it has. Indy's team has been the Indians since the earth cooled. Of course, the idea that the state's name "Indiana" means "Land of the Indians" might give them an out. And, thus, "Indianapolis" is "City of the land of the Indians." Tenuous, to be sure, but...
posted by Thorzdad at 11:08 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by Thorzdad at 11:08 AM on October 17, 2016
There are ways to do this correctly. Florida State, Central Michigan, both use the name of a Native American tribe for their sports teams - Seminoles and Chippewas, respectively - but unlike most collegiate and professional sports organizations that have used Native imagery, both of these universities do so with the approval of the specific tribes referenced.
A Native American activist I heard preach on the matter didn't agree with the Florida State imagery or how that endorsement was obtained. But his primary focus was on Washington, Cleveland, and Atlanta, and that's about all I feel qualified to type on the matter.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:09 AM on October 17, 2016
A Native American activist I heard preach on the matter didn't agree with the Florida State imagery or how that endorsement was obtained. But his primary focus was on Washington, Cleveland, and Atlanta, and that's about all I feel qualified to type on the matter.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:09 AM on October 17, 2016
Excellent news. Even if the suit doesn't go anywhere, the more stink that attaches to the name, the better.
I went to a high school whose teams were known as the 'Redmen'. It was pretty clearly racist to me back then already, but I was in the minority on that. After I left, the name continued, but the war chief logo disappeared, and there were these standard explanations of how 'Redmen' wasn't a racist thing referring to First Nations peoples, how it was a tradition and as such was important to keep, how if you think it's racist you really don't understand, blah blah blah.
They finally made a move to change the name this year. The collective freakout on facebook was thoroughly depressing, as was the school's explanation of the move, which did everything it could to avoid saying 'This Is A Totally Racist Thing And We Should Stop Doing It'.
I think the defensive freakout was driven (I hope) by people not wanting to be seen as racist or having performed racist behaviour, and that's understandable. But I would also think that those of us who want the symbol or name gone aren't interested in assigning blame so much as just wanting the damn thing gone.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:09 AM on October 17, 2016
I went to a high school whose teams were known as the 'Redmen'. It was pretty clearly racist to me back then already, but I was in the minority on that. After I left, the name continued, but the war chief logo disappeared, and there were these standard explanations of how 'Redmen' wasn't a racist thing referring to First Nations peoples, how it was a tradition and as such was important to keep, how if you think it's racist you really don't understand, blah blah blah.
They finally made a move to change the name this year. The collective freakout on facebook was thoroughly depressing, as was the school's explanation of the move, which did everything it could to avoid saying 'This Is A Totally Racist Thing And We Should Stop Doing It'.
I think the defensive freakout was driven (I hope) by people not wanting to be seen as racist or having performed racist behaviour, and that's understandable. But I would also think that those of us who want the symbol or name gone aren't interested in assigning blame so much as just wanting the damn thing gone.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:09 AM on October 17, 2016
There are ways to do this correctly. Florida State, Central Michigan, both use the name of a Native American tribe for their sports teams - Seminoles and Chippewas, respectively - but unlike most collegiate and professional sports organizations that have used Native imagery, both of these universities do so with the approval of the specific tribes referenced.
this is definitely one way to do things better but it shouldn't necessarily be held as an ideal standard, as there should be no default expectation that all tribes would be willing to agree to this. FSU is a good example as the seminole nation of oklahoma has disagreed with this particular usage of native names and imagery.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:11 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
this is definitely one way to do things better but it shouldn't necessarily be held as an ideal standard, as there should be no default expectation that all tribes would be willing to agree to this. FSU is a good example as the seminole nation of oklahoma has disagreed with this particular usage of native names and imagery.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:11 AM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Chief Wahoo is pretty bad, even to an Indians fan for forty some years like myself. It's basically the equivalent of Sambo for African Americans. So let's get rid of all the racially insensitive nicknames in one clean sweep, all at once, okay? Indians, gone; Redskins, gone; Braves, Seminoles, all consigned to the dustbin of history, right? Yeah, that'll definitely happen in somebody's lifetime, certainly not mine.
posted by e1c at 11:13 AM on October 17, 2016
posted by e1c at 11:13 AM on October 17, 2016
I'm glad that the Indians are in the playoffs again and bringing these embarrassing issues to an international audience. Cleveland is a small city these days and the problem of the nickname and the logo tend to fly under the radar most of the time, and pressure from the outside world is something that can advance the timeline for change.
I'm a lifelong Cleveland sports fan, and I've refused to wear gear with the racist logo on it since I've been old enough to know the difference. That's definitely a minority opinion among Cleveland baseball fans, but it's a growing minority that's been quietly enabled by the franchise.
Chief Wahoo is so bad and I'd like to see efforts like this focus on kicking his racist ass to the curb, because unfortunately I think there is almost no constituency at all among Cleveland fans for renaming the team at this point. The history of professional baseball in Cleveland has some great nicknames that they could return to: the Lake Shores, the Blues, the Spiders...but from the conversations that I've had, fans of the team are nowhere close to supporting that kind of move.
posted by Kwine at 11:18 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm a lifelong Cleveland sports fan, and I've refused to wear gear with the racist logo on it since I've been old enough to know the difference. That's definitely a minority opinion among Cleveland baseball fans, but it's a growing minority that's been quietly enabled by the franchise.
Chief Wahoo is so bad and I'd like to see efforts like this focus on kicking his racist ass to the curb, because unfortunately I think there is almost no constituency at all among Cleveland fans for renaming the team at this point. The history of professional baseball in Cleveland has some great nicknames that they could return to: the Lake Shores, the Blues, the Spiders...but from the conversations that I've had, fans of the team are nowhere close to supporting that kind of move.
posted by Kwine at 11:18 AM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
The fact that people aren't willing to ditch the racist bullshit name and logo for the Spiders, which would immediately be one of the coolest nicknames in sports and which opens up so many fantastic logo options is genuinely disappointing.
posted by protocoach at 11:21 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by protocoach at 11:21 AM on October 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
While the Spiders would be a cool name it also has the worst one year win-loss record in major league baseball (20 and 134) attached to it so it is going to be a hard sell.
posted by Mitheral at 11:28 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 11:28 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
The last time I was at Progressive Field (a couple years back) I went off in search of a t-shirt. There was a clubhouse store with just women's apparel and accessories--granted, not the full size of a typical store, but way bigger than just a kiosk. I was unable to find a single shirt that didn't have the Chief Wahoo logo somewhere on it.
I ended up getting a men's shirt that just has a big block C on the front. It's... kind of a really stupid shirt, and no one outside of Cleveland can identify it, and I probably shouldn't have bought it because if anything it sends the message that people who don't want to brandish an appallingly racist logo are appeased as long as there's an alternative for sale.
I should probably have spent the money on a Caucasians shirt instead.
posted by mama casserole at 11:46 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I ended up getting a men's shirt that just has a big block C on the front. It's... kind of a really stupid shirt, and no one outside of Cleveland can identify it, and I probably shouldn't have bought it because if anything it sends the message that people who don't want to brandish an appallingly racist logo are appeased as long as there's an alternative for sale.
I should probably have spent the money on a Caucasians shirt instead.
posted by mama casserole at 11:46 AM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Though one wonders where the Fighting Irish fit in.
Notre Dame as a Catholic school historically was a good place for Irish students who were kept out of many other universities by the WASP elite. Students were heavily Irish and Catholic as was the fanbase of the football team.
Similarly I wouldn't question if a mostly indigenous community had a high school with an eyebrow-raising mascot, as indeed seems to happen some places.
I can imagine a ridiculous situation where, like, Dartmouth had picked their mascot as the Fighting Irish in 1900, and frat boys would traditionally spray their hair red and sing drinking songs about the famine. That would be pretty offensive and need to change, I think, even if today there is very little anti-Irish discrimination.
posted by vogon_poet at 11:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Notre Dame as a Catholic school historically was a good place for Irish students who were kept out of many other universities by the WASP elite. Students were heavily Irish and Catholic as was the fanbase of the football team.
Similarly I wouldn't question if a mostly indigenous community had a high school with an eyebrow-raising mascot, as indeed seems to happen some places.
I can imagine a ridiculous situation where, like, Dartmouth had picked their mascot as the Fighting Irish in 1900, and frat boys would traditionally spray their hair red and sing drinking songs about the famine. That would be pretty offensive and need to change, I think, even if today there is very little anti-Irish discrimination.
posted by vogon_poet at 11:53 AM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Hey, how about the Cleveland Quarrymen? They already have a theme song, too.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:04 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by GhostintheMachine at 12:04 PM on October 17, 2016
Many modern Native Americans and Indigenous peoples in North America are survivors of genocide, both literal and cultural. The word "redskin" appears in historic bounty notices offering rewards for scalps delivered. Compared to that anger and grief, my mild annoyance at Irish-American kitsch doesn't really compare.
(Also somewhat relevant with Halloween coming up.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:13 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Also somewhat relevant with Halloween coming up.)
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:13 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, how about the Cleveland Quarrymen?
Or the Cleveland Rocks?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:19 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or the Cleveland Rocks?
posted by Sys Rq at 12:19 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
my (proudly Jewish) SO actually wants one of the (probably non-existant) "New York Jews" caps featured in one campaign against Cleveland's name and logo (link), but also figures he'd never dare wear it outside.
posted by jb at 12:24 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 12:24 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
>> Hey, how about the Cleveland Quarrymen?
> Or the Cleveland Rocks?
If we keep this up long enough, the Cleveland Team will start to stick and that'll become their new name by default. Maybe?
Here's the story of how the name did and did not come to be.
posted by howling fantods at 12:30 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
> Or the Cleveland Rocks?
If we keep this up long enough, the Cleveland Team will start to stick and that'll become their new name by default. Maybe?
Here's the story of how the name did and did not come to be.
posted by howling fantods at 12:30 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Don't see mention of it in this article but The Star ran a brief piece last week about Blue Jays' announcer Jerry Howarth's longstanding refusal to say the team's name on the air
Huh, you know I remember noticing that some announcer wasn't saying the name and wondering if that was why (I can't remember if it was radio or TV, though). Anyway, I kind of decided that couldn't be why, though, because sometimes they said "Cleveland team" and sometimes they said "The Tribe." I know Americans still use the word Tribe, but as a Canadian I'm kind of embarrassed for people when I hear them use that. It's kind of like "negro" in the us...it's not necessarily inherently racist, but if someone says it, the probability rises dramatically that the next thing they say will be racist.
Also, kids at a school are requesting that they acknowledge in the announcements before the game that the game is being held on the traditional lands of the Mississauga Nation. They did at this at the Olympics in Vancouver and Panam games in Toronto. It's not a bad idea for playoff games, either I guess. Apparently Toronto public schools now acknolwedge in the announcements each morning which first nation's land they are built on.
jb's husband wants every hat he's ever seen because he basically has a hat fetish, so her comment really doesn't mean much.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:36 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Huh, you know I remember noticing that some announcer wasn't saying the name and wondering if that was why (I can't remember if it was radio or TV, though). Anyway, I kind of decided that couldn't be why, though, because sometimes they said "Cleveland team" and sometimes they said "The Tribe." I know Americans still use the word Tribe, but as a Canadian I'm kind of embarrassed for people when I hear them use that. It's kind of like "negro" in the us...it's not necessarily inherently racist, but if someone says it, the probability rises dramatically that the next thing they say will be racist.
Also, kids at a school are requesting that they acknowledge in the announcements before the game that the game is being held on the traditional lands of the Mississauga Nation. They did at this at the Olympics in Vancouver and Panam games in Toronto. It's not a bad idea for playoff games, either I guess. Apparently Toronto public schools now acknolwedge in the announcements each morning which first nation's land they are built on.
jb's husband wants every hat he's ever seen because he basically has a hat fetish, so her comment really doesn't mean much.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:36 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's just the red block-C for Cleveland on the hats now, for example.
That was not the case for the first two games of this series.
If Cleveland isn't permitted to take the field, I wouldn't be surprised if the Blue Jays end up forfeiting the game(s). Not that that will necessarily make a difference as to who's playing in the World Series.
posted by the road and the damned at 12:44 PM on October 17, 2016
That was not the case for the first two games of this series.
If Cleveland isn't permitted to take the field, I wouldn't be surprised if the Blue Jays end up forfeiting the game(s). Not that that will necessarily make a difference as to who's playing in the World Series.
posted by the road and the damned at 12:44 PM on October 17, 2016
Vikings? Or Buccaneers, Raiders, Pirates, Patriots
Aren't Buccanneers, Raiders, Pirates, and Patriots things people choose to be? They're not ethnic groups. The first three are more like occupations, the last a political viewpoint (assuming it's referring to patriots as opposed to loyalists, not just anyone who loves their country). Vikings were an ethnic group, I guess, but basically no longer exist. Another team in this category would be the celtics. I guess those don't bother me much. No more than I would be bothered by the Gladiators (admittedly, also an occupation, but an occupation from a particular ethnic group). The difference is A) They're not being parodied really in anything close to the same way and B) they don't exist anymore so it's not like you're defaming anyone.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:46 PM on October 17, 2016
Aren't Buccanneers, Raiders, Pirates, and Patriots things people choose to be? They're not ethnic groups. The first three are more like occupations, the last a political viewpoint (assuming it's referring to patriots as opposed to loyalists, not just anyone who loves their country). Vikings were an ethnic group, I guess, but basically no longer exist. Another team in this category would be the celtics. I guess those don't bother me much. No more than I would be bothered by the Gladiators (admittedly, also an occupation, but an occupation from a particular ethnic group). The difference is A) They're not being parodied really in anything close to the same way and B) they don't exist anymore so it's not like you're defaming anyone.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:46 PM on October 17, 2016
The first professional baseball team in Cleveland was named Forest City, after the early nickname for the city. Obviously that name would probably be too cumbersome to use today, but I've always thought that something that riffed off that woodsy theme would be nice, especially since it would be unique in MLB.
posted by AndrewInDC at 12:56 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by AndrewInDC at 12:56 PM on October 17, 2016
actually ... the word "Viking" properly applies only to sea-born raiders, not the early medieval Norse people as a whole. So it's also a profession - or maybe calling?
posted by jb at 12:57 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jb at 12:57 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's no possibility that Cleveland "won't be permitted to take the field." They can take the field even if the complaint is successful, they just can't wear that name and logo. Well good news, their away uniforms don't include the name or logo.
Given that they HAVE uniforms that don't have the name and logo and could thus easily comply with a ruling, I think refusing to comply with the law in the place where they will be playing would be THEM forfeiting the game.
Speaking of the law in the place where they will be playing, how was Matt Bush allowed to enter Canada to pitch. I thought conviction of a serious criminal offense was grounds for being denied entry into the country. Do we suspend the law for professional athletes now?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:59 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Given that they HAVE uniforms that don't have the name and logo and could thus easily comply with a ruling, I think refusing to comply with the law in the place where they will be playing would be THEM forfeiting the game.
Speaking of the law in the place where they will be playing, how was Matt Bush allowed to enter Canada to pitch. I thought conviction of a serious criminal offense was grounds for being denied entry into the country. Do we suspend the law for professional athletes now?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:59 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
Isn't the logo on the arm in that image? I suspect they can afford a rush uniform order if needed.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:03 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 1:03 PM on October 17, 2016
Every time this sports mascot question comes up, somebody says "Well what about the Vikings? What about the Fighting Irish?" And I think that's a natural reaction for a curious person to have.
And the response about cultural appropriation of the oppressed by their oppressors always come up, and that's a good answer.
There are a couple of other points that I don't often see made, though, so let me try.
Suppose my friend and I are both Irish. I'm livid over the Notre Dame mascot, but my friend doesn't care. Is my concern trumped by my friend's different attitude?
No. The fact that my friend doesn't care is not an argument. The fact that an offense isn't universally acknowledged is not an argument. It is as best a lazy emotional justification for ignoring the situation. That doesn't make my friend a bad person for attending a Notre Dame game. But there is no logic in this thought process: "Many people of Irish descent don't care about this, therefore the issue is utterly silly."
The other point, which is even more unthinkable to most people, is that maybe "The Fighting Irish" and "The Vikings" are also kind of lazy, shitty, and problematic. Just because they're not as obviously horrible as Chief Wahoo doesn't mean they're totally OK now and forever, either. Offensiveness and insensitivity are not binary values, and standards change over time. Those are good things.
posted by Western Infidels at 1:06 PM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
And the response about cultural appropriation of the oppressed by their oppressors always come up, and that's a good answer.
There are a couple of other points that I don't often see made, though, so let me try.
Suppose my friend and I are both Irish. I'm livid over the Notre Dame mascot, but my friend doesn't care. Is my concern trumped by my friend's different attitude?
No. The fact that my friend doesn't care is not an argument. The fact that an offense isn't universally acknowledged is not an argument. It is as best a lazy emotional justification for ignoring the situation. That doesn't make my friend a bad person for attending a Notre Dame game. But there is no logic in this thought process: "Many people of Irish descent don't care about this, therefore the issue is utterly silly."
The other point, which is even more unthinkable to most people, is that maybe "The Fighting Irish" and "The Vikings" are also kind of lazy, shitty, and problematic. Just because they're not as obviously horrible as Chief Wahoo doesn't mean they're totally OK now and forever, either. Offensiveness and insensitivity are not binary values, and standards change over time. Those are good things.
posted by Western Infidels at 1:06 PM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
hmm....yes...the question is are they ironed on or sewed on. I would imagine sewed, in which case the solution is simple, obvious, and cheap.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:09 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:09 PM on October 17, 2016
I have a friend who is a fan of DC's football team. I call them the "Washington Racist Slurs." I am more than willing to extend this name to the teams from Cobb County (when they move back to Atlanta, I will say they are from Atlanta) and Cleveland.
Maybe we can celebrate wiping a disease from the planet and at the same time acknowledging the racist nature of the team name and the genocide that preceded the white settlement of the continent. Presenting your Cleveland Smallpox. I'm thinking a design kind of like this one.
posted by Hactar at 2:02 PM on October 17, 2016
Maybe we can celebrate wiping a disease from the planet and at the same time acknowledging the racist nature of the team name and the genocide that preceded the white settlement of the continent. Presenting your Cleveland Smallpox. I'm thinking a design kind of like this one.
posted by Hactar at 2:02 PM on October 17, 2016
I haven't seen very much Native pushback against the Blackhawks for whatever reason.
Because the natives got the boot from Illinois.
posted by srboisvert at 2:19 PM on October 17, 2016
Because the natives got the boot from Illinois.
posted by srboisvert at 2:19 PM on October 17, 2016
actually ... the word "Viking" properly applies only to sea-born raiders, not the early medieval Norse people as a whole.
This is not the dominant understanding of the term in Scandinavia...
posted by Dysk at 2:22 PM on October 17, 2016
This is not the dominant understanding of the term in Scandinavia...
posted by Dysk at 2:22 PM on October 17, 2016
It's worth a few eye-rolls to note that the Cleveland Indians play their home games at Progressive Field.
posted by rokusan at 2:25 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rokusan at 2:25 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
The last time I was at Progressive Field ... I was unable to find a single shirt that didn't have the Chief Wahoo logo somewhere on it.
This would seem to be...not so progressive?
"What about the Fighting Irish" is the "all lives matter" of sports. Or, as often said in such topics: you can be offended by that too, but right now we're offended by Cleveland.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 2:26 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
This would seem to be...not so progressive?
"What about the Fighting Irish" is the "all lives matter" of sports. Or, as often said in such topics: you can be offended by that too, but right now we're offended by Cleveland.
posted by Ogre Lawless at 2:26 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
there's already a punishment for fighting irish fans - it's traffic in south bend
posted by pyramid termite at 2:27 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by pyramid termite at 2:27 PM on October 17, 2016
Mother Jones had a tidy timeline on these names a few years ago, though it barely scrapes the surface of the several hundred current examples in the Wikipedia Sports team names and mascots derived from indigenous peoples page.
Spoiler: Eskimos are well-covered.
posted by rokusan at 2:30 PM on October 17, 2016
Spoiler: Eskimos are well-covered.
posted by rokusan at 2:30 PM on October 17, 2016
Looks like the ban won't go ahead.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:32 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:32 PM on October 17, 2016
As a life-long Clevelander and baseball fan, my friends and I have always thought the name should be changed back to The Blues. Not only is this great in dealing with our arch-rivals The Reds, but you can also then use a saxophone or guitar as the logo.
You'd be surprised (if you're not a Clevelander) just how many people here vehemently oppose changing the name or dropping the Chief. It's really sad, and indicates something about this area of the country I try really hard to ignore most days. I honestly think the team management would love to get rid of it, but the popular backlash would be immense. People really, really like that logo for some reason, and go absolutely bananas when any suggestion that it should be removed is brought up locally.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 3:01 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
You'd be surprised (if you're not a Clevelander) just how many people here vehemently oppose changing the name or dropping the Chief. It's really sad, and indicates something about this area of the country I try really hard to ignore most days. I honestly think the team management would love to get rid of it, but the popular backlash would be immense. People really, really like that logo for some reason, and go absolutely bananas when any suggestion that it should be removed is brought up locally.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 3:01 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It will be interesting to see the reasons once the judge makes them public. I'm on the fence about government censorship in cases like these, it would be really nice if we could just come to a respectful consensus that the team name should be changed, but that seems far off.
Part of the thing that is happening, of course, is people up here loving to revel in a feeling that we're just a little more enlightened that our American neighbours, ignoring that we have a team in Canada that uses an even more unacceptable term for an indigenous group here. The two situations aren't exactly comparable because Jays playoff baseball is WAY more high profile than CFL football, but still I almost think a lot of this discussion is "permitted" perhaps because we're much more comfortable talking about another nation's racism than our own.
posted by beau jackson at 3:06 PM on October 17, 2016
Part of the thing that is happening, of course, is people up here loving to revel in a feeling that we're just a little more enlightened that our American neighbours, ignoring that we have a team in Canada that uses an even more unacceptable term for an indigenous group here. The two situations aren't exactly comparable because Jays playoff baseball is WAY more high profile than CFL football, but still I almost think a lot of this discussion is "permitted" perhaps because we're much more comfortable talking about another nation's racism than our own.
posted by beau jackson at 3:06 PM on October 17, 2016
how many people here vehemently oppose changing the name or dropping the Chief.
I'd be surprised if many people care about Wahoo, but any change to the name or nickname (Indians and tribe, respectively) would be very difficult.
posted by jpe at 3:29 PM on October 17, 2016
I'd be surprised if many people care about Wahoo, but any change to the name or nickname (Indians and tribe, respectively) would be very difficult.
posted by jpe at 3:29 PM on October 17, 2016
The Redskins can keep the name, just change the mascot to a peanut or a potato.
Same for the Indians. Just change the logo to a picture of Tagore, Mother Theresa, and Gandhi (and add a moon for good measure).
posted by sockpup at 3:35 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Same for the Indians. Just change the logo to a picture of Tagore, Mother Theresa, and Gandhi (and add a moon for good measure).
posted by sockpup at 3:35 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Cleveland is a majority African-American city, with an African-American mayor. It's one of the poorest big cities in America. The football team is called the Browns, named after former coach Paul Brown, but which in most Cleveland's subconscious has merged with the name of Jim Brown, the African-American fullback who remains the city's greatest living icon. Cuyahoga County, where Cleveland is located, is one of the most deeply Democratic counties in the nation, election after election delivering decisive votes to progressive politicians and Presidential candidates. (At one point, early in this recent Presidential election cycle, Hillary's campaign manager defined his campaign strategy in two words: "Cuyahoga County".) Rep. Marcia Fudge of Cuyahoga County leads the Congressional Black Caucus. The fact that Chief Wahoo has the strong support of so many people of all races and classes in this highly race and class-conscious environment, should give one pause before making simplistic accusations.
posted by Modest House at 4:30 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Modest House at 4:30 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm a huge Cleveland baseball fan. YOOGE. Wahoo has to be gone, like 10 years ago. It's a disgrace and an embarrassment. As far as the name goes, there are a number acceptable options, assuming "Fighting Whities" is off the table. Consulting with Native American groups would be great should they want to keep that theme, but the historic names are pretty good, especially the Spiders. Come on. That's fucking cool as shit.
posted by mondo dentro at 4:40 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by mondo dentro at 4:40 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
A large Black population in Cleveland doesn't make a redface caricature of a mascot not racist.
posted by ChuraChura at 4:49 PM on October 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 4:49 PM on October 17, 2016 [10 favorites]
My friend and I were riffing on new names for the team and came up with a few:
- Cleveland Lakefires
- Cleveland Industrials (Indies for short)
- Cleveland Heights (after the neighborhood [would probly be controversial[)
my favorite
- Cleveland Stevedores, Stevies for short.
I don't know how you could not cheer for the Stevies, they just sound like the underdogs you want to win. Maybe they're not the world champs but goshdarn if they don't give it their all. Probably one of the Stevies has a lovable nickname like Hotdog Jones? And he doesn't eat hot dogs at all, but he's a real slick shooter, and you can bet he learns some lessons about teamwork, or America.
It began as a naming exercise but ended up as baseball fanfic because it's 2016 and nature must run its course.
posted by Tevin at 5:03 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
- Cleveland Lakefires
- Cleveland Industrials (Indies for short)
- Cleveland Heights (after the neighborhood [would probly be controversial[)
my favorite
- Cleveland Stevedores, Stevies for short.
I don't know how you could not cheer for the Stevies, they just sound like the underdogs you want to win. Maybe they're not the world champs but goshdarn if they don't give it their all. Probably one of the Stevies has a lovable nickname like Hotdog Jones? And he doesn't eat hot dogs at all, but he's a real slick shooter, and you can bet he learns some lessons about teamwork, or America.
It began as a naming exercise but ended up as baseball fanfic because it's 2016 and nature must run its course.
posted by Tevin at 5:03 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
The fact that Chief Wahoo has the strong support of so many people of all races and classes in this highly race and class-conscious environment, should give one pause before making simplistic accusations.
Literally all this indicates is that being a member of a racial minority somewhere doesn't magically protect you from espousing or supporting racism against other groups, which should be completely unsurprising. White Americans don't have any kind of monopoly on racism.
posted by protocoach at 5:09 PM on October 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
Literally all this indicates is that being a member of a racial minority somewhere doesn't magically protect you from espousing or supporting racism against other groups, which should be completely unsurprising. White Americans don't have any kind of monopoly on racism.
posted by protocoach at 5:09 PM on October 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
It'd decay into Steves for sure, eventually. And I like that.
posted by rokusan at 5:13 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rokusan at 5:13 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
It'd decay into Steves for sure, eventually.
Can we save that for the election thread?
posted by miguelcervantes at 5:18 PM on October 17, 2016
Can we save that for the election thread?
posted by miguelcervantes at 5:18 PM on October 17, 2016
- Cleveland Stevedores, Stevies for short
I think "Steamers" might prove a more likely nickname.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:44 PM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think "Steamers" might prove a more likely nickname.
posted by Sys Rq at 5:44 PM on October 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
A large Black population in Cleveland doesn't make a redface caricature of a mascot not racist.
Hardly what is being implied. What I'm saying is that a considered view of a popular symbol like Chief Wahoo deserves some context, not the formulaic "slap a 'racist' stamp on it, cock a snook, and move on" approach to be found on this thread. Many Clevelanders interpret attacks on Chief Wahoo as the condescension of elites -- or as fancy people from cities with mind-boggling real estate values (like Toronto, or USA's coastal cities) punching down at a poor, African American city where symbols of local pride replace high income as an anchor of self-esteem.
posted by Modest House at 5:49 PM on October 17, 2016
Hardly what is being implied. What I'm saying is that a considered view of a popular symbol like Chief Wahoo deserves some context, not the formulaic "slap a 'racist' stamp on it, cock a snook, and move on" approach to be found on this thread. Many Clevelanders interpret attacks on Chief Wahoo as the condescension of elites -- or as fancy people from cities with mind-boggling real estate values (like Toronto, or USA's coastal cities) punching down at a poor, African American city where symbols of local pride replace high income as an anchor of self-esteem.
posted by Modest House at 5:49 PM on October 17, 2016
What I'm saying is that a considered view of a popular symbol like Chief Wahoo deserves some context, not the formulaic "slap a 'racist' stamp on it, cock a snook, and move on" approach to be found on this thread.
And what we're saying is no, it doesn't, it's a racist caricature of a group that this country committed genocide against and there's no context that justifies it. "Black people in Cleveland don't mind/like Chief Wahoo" is no more viable a justification than "black people in Washington DC don't mind/like the name Redskins". Doesn't matter; still racist.
Also, guess what: there are black people in Cleveland who think it's racist bullshit:
Cleveland Councilman Zack Reed, who is black, has campaigned to change Wahoo for years and recently pushed legislation that makes it more difficult for the team to display the logo on public light poles.
"Take the old black Sambo and Chief Wahoo and put them up together," Reed said. "They're identical."
People in Cleveland and outside of Cleveland take issue with it, because it's racist bullshit. This isn't "outside agitators coming in and making fun of the locals." This is people like Philip Yenyo, who is Native American and from Cleveland, and Zack Reed telling everyone that Wahoo is a hurtful racist image and you pretending that the disapproval of the racist symbol is coastal elitism, rather than a fairly widespread consensus that racist mascots are a bad thing.
posted by protocoach at 6:03 PM on October 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
And what we're saying is no, it doesn't, it's a racist caricature of a group that this country committed genocide against and there's no context that justifies it. "Black people in Cleveland don't mind/like Chief Wahoo" is no more viable a justification than "black people in Washington DC don't mind/like the name Redskins". Doesn't matter; still racist.
Also, guess what: there are black people in Cleveland who think it's racist bullshit:
Cleveland Councilman Zack Reed, who is black, has campaigned to change Wahoo for years and recently pushed legislation that makes it more difficult for the team to display the logo on public light poles.
"Take the old black Sambo and Chief Wahoo and put them up together," Reed said. "They're identical."
People in Cleveland and outside of Cleveland take issue with it, because it's racist bullshit. This isn't "outside agitators coming in and making fun of the locals." This is people like Philip Yenyo, who is Native American and from Cleveland, and Zack Reed telling everyone that Wahoo is a hurtful racist image and you pretending that the disapproval of the racist symbol is coastal elitism, rather than a fairly widespread consensus that racist mascots are a bad thing.
posted by protocoach at 6:03 PM on October 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
the formulaic "slap a 'racist' stamp on it, cock a snook, and move on" approach
On the plus side, this is the most lyrical version of "Nuh UH!" I've heard in a while.
posted by Etrigan at 6:10 PM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
On the plus side, this is the most lyrical version of "Nuh UH!" I've heard in a while.
posted by Etrigan at 6:10 PM on October 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Every time I start thinking about team names I think of cave paintings, how humans wanted to have the attributes of cave bears, tigers, wild horses or bison. It was magical thinking then and it's magical thinking now with the "Bears", "Tigers", and "Broncos". I don't even want to contemplate the psychology of using other human beings as magical vessels. Why not change the names of teams every decade or so, just to dislodge some detritus? We'd certainly remember a world series pitting the "Grumpy Cats" against the "Walking Dead" or the "Spidermen" against the "Dark Knights". And when the names changed again we'd sigh with relief.
posted by acrasis at 6:35 PM on October 17, 2016
posted by acrasis at 6:35 PM on October 17, 2016
Many Clevelanders interpret attacks on Chief Wahoo as the condescension of elites -- or as fancy people from cities with mind-boggling real estate values (like Toronto, or USA's coastal cities) punching down at a poor, African American city where symbols of local pride replace high income as an anchor of self-esteem.
There may be some element of this going on. But the most important stakeholders here are activists from communities burdened with some of the most extreme poverty in North America on the one hand, and billion-dollar entertainment business on the other.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:41 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
There may be some element of this going on. But the most important stakeholders here are activists from communities burdened with some of the most extreme poverty in North America on the one hand, and billion-dollar entertainment business on the other.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 6:41 PM on October 17, 2016 [2 favorites]
actually ... the word "Viking" properly applies only to sea-born raiders, not the early medieval Norse people as a whole.
This is not the dominant understanding of the term in Scandinavia...
posted by Dysk
this is what I was told by a Scandinavian historian (both a historian of early medieval Scandinavia and a historian who happened to be Scandinavian).
posted by jb at 6:54 PM on October 17, 2016
This is not the dominant understanding of the term in Scandinavia...
posted by Dysk
this is what I was told by a Scandinavian historian (both a historian of early medieval Scandinavia and a historian who happened to be Scandinavian).
posted by jb at 6:54 PM on October 17, 2016
If only I had a penguin...: "I thought conviction of a serious criminal offense was grounds for being denied entry into the country. Do we suspend the law for professional athletes now? "
There are a few ways you can gain admission. Likely he applied for and received a temporary residency permit. The duration of which could be as little as one day.
If only I had a penguin...: "hmm....yes...the question is are they ironed on or sewed on. I would imagine sewed, in which case the solution is simple, obvious, and cheap."
Or they could simply roll the sleeve up.
posted by Mitheral at 7:10 PM on October 17, 2016
There are a few ways you can gain admission. Likely he applied for and received a temporary residency permit. The duration of which could be as little as one day.
If only I had a penguin...: "hmm....yes...the question is are they ironed on or sewed on. I would imagine sewed, in which case the solution is simple, obvious, and cheap."
Or they could simply roll the sleeve up.
posted by Mitheral at 7:10 PM on October 17, 2016
The fact that Chief Wahoo has the strong support of so many people of all races
As an actual Cleveland resident, this feels like a "citation needed" kind of moment.
The people I've seen getting worked up about "losing" Wahoo, either in real life or on the news, are, without exception, white.
I have seen no small number of black guys wearing the "Caucasians" t-shirt.
I mean, you got anecdata, I got anecdata . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 7:13 PM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
As an actual Cleveland resident, this feels like a "citation needed" kind of moment.
The people I've seen getting worked up about "losing" Wahoo, either in real life or on the news, are, without exception, white.
I have seen no small number of black guys wearing the "Caucasians" t-shirt.
I mean, you got anecdata, I got anecdata . . . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 7:13 PM on October 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I very occasionally go to a MLB game in Cleveland, and the Wahoo shit blows my mind every time. I empathize with the "can't we just have this one thing?" attitude I hear -- as though losing the grotesquely racist brand would be a final indignity. And then I see a Chief Wahoo yarmulke and my mind is, again, blown. People who would be revolted in other contexts somehow just...aren't.
The minor league Lake County Captains profit from my reluctance to support the MLB team.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:30 PM on October 17, 2016
The minor league Lake County Captains profit from my reluctance to support the MLB team.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 7:30 PM on October 17, 2016
Many Clevelanders interpret attacks on Chief Wahoo as the condescension of elites -- or as fancy people from cities with mind-boggling real estate values (like Toronto, or USA's coastal cities) punching down at a poor, African American city where symbols of local pride replace high income as an anchor of self-esteem.
Also, many Clevelanders interpret support for Chief Wahoo as fancy people who white-flighted to the suburbs and exurbs with mind-boggling real estate values (or their parents did) punching down at a poor African-American city that they're too scared to live in and only visit for nice safe events like major-league baseball games when the cops are everywhere.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:39 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, many Clevelanders interpret support for Chief Wahoo as fancy people who white-flighted to the suburbs and exurbs with mind-boggling real estate values (or their parents did) punching down at a poor African-American city that they're too scared to live in and only visit for nice safe events like major-league baseball games when the cops are everywhere.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:39 PM on October 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Viking" was a verb.
That's how it was used, not how it is used. It's been a thousand years, and language is far from static.
posted by Dysk at 8:29 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's how it was used, not how it is used. It's been a thousand years, and language is far from static.
posted by Dysk at 8:29 PM on October 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
My cousin just came up with the best replacement name for the team:
The Cleveland That Guys
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:37 PM on October 17, 2016
The Cleveland That Guys
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:37 PM on October 17, 2016
I don't even want to contemplate the psychology of using other human beings as magical vessels.
One of the few things I've kept from my time at the University of North Dakota is a photocopy of a 1929 pamphlet advocating changing the mascot from the Flickertails (colloquial name for a type of ground squirrel and part of the state motto) to the Fighting Sioux. The argument was distilled down to three key points: 1) it's easy to rhyme 2) Sioux are warlike and our athletes are warriors and 3) "Sioux are a fine exterminating agent for the Bison," referrring to North Dakota State who sensibly chose and kept an animal as a mascot.
Those same arguments were being used 70 years later when the actual Sioux tribal governments, native students and their allies were pushing to retire the name. After 70 years the mascot was "tradition" and "honoring native Americans."
It's hard to claim honor when Greek orgs were holding "squaw and bucks" kegars and selling t-shirts of a caricatured Indian sodomizing other mascots.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:52 PM on October 17, 2016
One of the few things I've kept from my time at the University of North Dakota is a photocopy of a 1929 pamphlet advocating changing the mascot from the Flickertails (colloquial name for a type of ground squirrel and part of the state motto) to the Fighting Sioux. The argument was distilled down to three key points: 1) it's easy to rhyme 2) Sioux are warlike and our athletes are warriors and 3) "Sioux are a fine exterminating agent for the Bison," referrring to North Dakota State who sensibly chose and kept an animal as a mascot.
Those same arguments were being used 70 years later when the actual Sioux tribal governments, native students and their allies were pushing to retire the name. After 70 years the mascot was "tradition" and "honoring native Americans."
It's hard to claim honor when Greek orgs were holding "squaw and bucks" kegars and selling t-shirts of a caricatured Indian sodomizing other mascots.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:52 PM on October 17, 2016
It's hard to claim honor when Greek orgs were holding "squaw and bucks" kegars and selling t-shirts of a caricatured Indian sodomizing other mascots.
ah god
college football, I want to like you but between this and the Ann Arbor Is A Whore t-shirts Michigan Staters like to parade around in you make it so damned hard
posted by Existential Dread at 9:10 PM on October 17, 2016
ah god
college football, I want to like you but between this and the Ann Arbor Is A Whore t-shirts Michigan Staters like to parade around in you make it so damned hard
posted by Existential Dread at 9:10 PM on October 17, 2016
I'm a native Clevelander here and Wahoo lover who owns a necklace charm and earrings with the logo that I'm wearing tomorrow to work. People criticizing it feels like an attack on the city and just makes me and the rest of the town want to double down and wear it more just to be that way.
This controversy comes up a few times a year, usually at opening day. Like it or hate it, the Chief is one of the most identifiable logos in American sports. If the organization wants to stop officially using it, they'll have to come to come up with something more interesting than lame-o C cop-out logo. Block C sucks, that could mean Columbus, Cincinnati, Chicago, whatever.
Perhaps they could instead use something Indian-related like a feather, arrowhead, maybe a headdress? Perhaps a tribe like the Senecas of western New York could be involved so it's PC and everyone gets props.
Fans will still wear Wahoo stuff regardless, the organization and Major League Baseball won't stop selling stuff with it as it's very profitable. Here's a pic of one of the original Wahoos from the 40's, which was designed by a 17-year-old boy at the time who wasn't thinking about cultural awareness. They did tone it down some for recent times. I wasn't the only person to notice that the Tribe was wearing both the Wahoo hat and large Wahoo on the sleeve for the first Toronto game, was that a FU? Now that the Tribe are one game away from the pennant, I can't see them backing down from using it now. Baseball folks are a superstitious bunch.
posted by greatalleycat at 10:40 PM on October 17, 2016
This controversy comes up a few times a year, usually at opening day. Like it or hate it, the Chief is one of the most identifiable logos in American sports. If the organization wants to stop officially using it, they'll have to come to come up with something more interesting than lame-o C cop-out logo. Block C sucks, that could mean Columbus, Cincinnati, Chicago, whatever.
Perhaps they could instead use something Indian-related like a feather, arrowhead, maybe a headdress? Perhaps a tribe like the Senecas of western New York could be involved so it's PC and everyone gets props.
Fans will still wear Wahoo stuff regardless, the organization and Major League Baseball won't stop selling stuff with it as it's very profitable. Here's a pic of one of the original Wahoos from the 40's, which was designed by a 17-year-old boy at the time who wasn't thinking about cultural awareness. They did tone it down some for recent times. I wasn't the only person to notice that the Tribe was wearing both the Wahoo hat and large Wahoo on the sleeve for the first Toronto game, was that a FU? Now that the Tribe are one game away from the pennant, I can't see them backing down from using it now. Baseball folks are a superstitious bunch.
posted by greatalleycat at 10:40 PM on October 17, 2016
My uncle verify team is the Vikings and I know of one international student from Iceland that haaaaaaaaated the use of those plastic helmets wit horns and the humanoid giant stuffed mascot with the big blond beard.
"Inaccurate" was the best explanation I got.
posted by chapps at 11:25 PM on October 17, 2016
"Inaccurate" was the best explanation I got.
posted by chapps at 11:25 PM on October 17, 2016
It's like any stereotyping, really. I don't think a lot of people realise how strongly a lot of people (though far from all) identify with their Viking heritage. There's no history of oppression here (certainly not of the Norse peoples being oppressed anyway) but it will come across as disrespectful and lazy ethnic stereotyping to some.
posted by Dysk at 2:32 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by Dysk at 2:32 AM on October 18, 2016
I was introduced to the Fighting Irish logo via a previous iteration of this discussion on Metafilter and I found it genuinely shocking. But you know, I’m British, so I have a different relationship to ideas of Ireland and Irish identity than I would do if I was living in Indiana. Still, chalk me up as one person who was genuinely sincerely shocked by it in a very similar way that I was genuinely shocked when I saw the Chief Wahoo logo for the first time (which was probably in the same thread). I would be interested to know what people from Ireland think of it.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:49 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 3:49 AM on October 18, 2016
The Cleveland That Guys
The Cleveland Drifters
posted by the road and the damned at 5:03 AM on October 18, 2016
The Cleveland Drifters
posted by the road and the damned at 5:03 AM on October 18, 2016
What's really irksome is seeing how the NBA was able to handle giving Donald Sterling the boot, but MLB and the NFL can't or won't deal with the racist bullshit in their leagues.
I can understand why some PoC in Cleveland and DC might resent the idea of white folks coming in and telling them what's racist, but it's condemning the messenger if they then claim elitism since the offense is towards indigenous communities, who's virtual invisibility keeps their claims from getting noticed. Standing up for the Cleveland and DC teams in the face of this is the very definition of punching down since they have almost no voice in our culture.
I'd also love to see the idea of "tradition" as a meaningful argument against reform disappear. The US does have a long tradition of racism and racist caricature, that is both recognized and part of the point of the complaints. Needless to say I don't think "identifiable" works much better, blackface mascots would also be plenty identifiable, but that is hardly a point in their favor.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:28 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can understand why some PoC in Cleveland and DC might resent the idea of white folks coming in and telling them what's racist, but it's condemning the messenger if they then claim elitism since the offense is towards indigenous communities, who's virtual invisibility keeps their claims from getting noticed. Standing up for the Cleveland and DC teams in the face of this is the very definition of punching down since they have almost no voice in our culture.
I'd also love to see the idea of "tradition" as a meaningful argument against reform disappear. The US does have a long tradition of racism and racist caricature, that is both recognized and part of the point of the complaints. Needless to say I don't think "identifiable" works much better, blackface mascots would also be plenty identifiable, but that is hardly a point in their favor.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:28 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
(ugh... "university" not "uncle verify")...
Never post while sleepy and under the influence of autocorrect!
posted by chapps at 5:39 AM on October 18, 2016
Never post while sleepy and under the influence of autocorrect!
posted by chapps at 5:39 AM on October 18, 2016
People criticizing it feels like an attack on the city and just makes me and the rest of the town want to double down and wear it more just to be that way.
Ahh, the old, "people pointing out that I might have been unintentionally racist and offensive has made me want to now be intentionally racist and offensive to spite them" gambit. It never gets old, does it?
posted by tocts at 5:55 AM on October 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
Ahh, the old, "people pointing out that I might have been unintentionally racist and offensive has made me want to now be intentionally racist and offensive to spite them" gambit. It never gets old, does it?
posted by tocts at 5:55 AM on October 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
People criticizing it feels like an attack on the city
Yes, as part of that totally unprovoked, coordinated attack on Cleveland, Washington DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Kansas City, Edmonton, Milwaukee, Ypsilanti, Grand Forks...
posted by Etrigan at 6:11 AM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yes, as part of that totally unprovoked, coordinated attack on Cleveland, Washington DC, Chicago, Atlanta, Kansas City, Edmonton, Milwaukee, Ypsilanti, Grand Forks...
posted by Etrigan at 6:11 AM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
People criticizing it feels like an attack on the city
Man, those assholes from faraway places who are coming in to try and take something away from the original people of Cleveland. Who do they think they are, just up and kicking them out so they can replace it with their foreign culture? What a bunch of imperialist dicks, amirite?
and just makes me and the rest of the town want to double down and wear it more just to be that way
Doubling down on racism is still racism. Being defensive about it makes things worse.
This controversy comes up a few times a year, usually at opening day. Like it or hate it, the Chief is one of the most identifiable logos in American sports[...] Here's a pic of one of the original Wahoos from the 40's, which was designed by a 17-year-old boy at the time who wasn't thinking about cultural awareness.
Little Black Sambos and buck-toothed Asians are pretty identifiable, too, so I don't see how that that qualifies as a valid defense. Neither is the logo being designed by a 17yo white kid before it was "PC."
posted by zombieflanders at 6:38 AM on October 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
Man, those assholes from faraway places who are coming in to try and take something away from the original people of Cleveland. Who do they think they are, just up and kicking them out so they can replace it with their foreign culture? What a bunch of imperialist dicks, amirite?
and just makes me and the rest of the town want to double down and wear it more just to be that way
Doubling down on racism is still racism. Being defensive about it makes things worse.
This controversy comes up a few times a year, usually at opening day. Like it or hate it, the Chief is one of the most identifiable logos in American sports[...] Here's a pic of one of the original Wahoos from the 40's, which was designed by a 17-year-old boy at the time who wasn't thinking about cultural awareness.
Little Black Sambos and buck-toothed Asians are pretty identifiable, too, so I don't see how that that qualifies as a valid defense. Neither is the logo being designed by a 17yo white kid before it was "PC."
posted by zombieflanders at 6:38 AM on October 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
The thing that kind of irks me (in a sort of cynical Machiavellian way) about the Indians thing is . . . . . look, let's be honest - White America tends to be not-so-great with subtlety and fine distinctions when it comes to racism (among other things.) Like, people will claim in utter seriousness that since we've had a black President and we don't turn the firehoses on black people who want to eat in the same diners, hey, racism is solved, we're a "post-racial" society.
So the team ownership is kinda-sorta quietly phasing Chief Wahoo out - which is a giant missed opportunity. If they would just openly eliminate and apologize for the Chief Wahoo logo, it would buy them like a decade-plus of slack on the name of the team. Dump the openly blatantly racist symbol, and a whole bunch of people are going to figure you did the right thing AND that the "racism" problem is solved. The longer they stall on Wahoo, the more people are going to think "Wahoo=Cleveland Indians=yeah that name sucks too."
posted by soundguy99 at 12:10 PM on October 18, 2016
So the team ownership is kinda-sorta quietly phasing Chief Wahoo out - which is a giant missed opportunity. If they would just openly eliminate and apologize for the Chief Wahoo logo, it would buy them like a decade-plus of slack on the name of the team. Dump the openly blatantly racist symbol, and a whole bunch of people are going to figure you did the right thing AND that the "racism" problem is solved. The longer they stall on Wahoo, the more people are going to think "Wahoo=Cleveland Indians=yeah that name sucks too."
posted by soundguy99 at 12:10 PM on October 18, 2016
If they would just openly eliminate and apologize for the Chief Wahoo logo, it would buy them like a decade-plus of slack on the name of the team. Dump the openly blatantly racist symbol, and a whole bunch of people are going to figure you did the right thing AND that the "racism" problem is solved.
I disagree. Anyone on the side of Change The Name isn't going to be mollified by one step. And anyone on the other side has already decided that it's not really racism anyway, or at least it's acceptable racism.
If they ever apologize for any of it, what a lot of people are going to hear is "This is racist, and you are a racist for supporting it, and your dad was a racist when he brought you to games 30 years ago, and his dad was a racist, etc. etc."
posted by Etrigan at 12:25 PM on October 18, 2016
I disagree. Anyone on the side of Change The Name isn't going to be mollified by one step. And anyone on the other side has already decided that it's not really racism anyway, or at least it's acceptable racism.
If they ever apologize for any of it, what a lot of people are going to hear is "This is racist, and you are a racist for supporting it, and your dad was a racist when he brought you to games 30 years ago, and his dad was a racist, etc. etc."
posted by Etrigan at 12:25 PM on October 18, 2016
This is why they have to secretly bank roll someone to take them to court and then just.not.fight.the.change. That way the team can say the courts "forced" them to change. And they get to sell all new uniforms. And the naming rights; how much do you suppose that would be worth?
posted by Mitheral at 1:18 PM on October 18, 2016
posted by Mitheral at 1:18 PM on October 18, 2016
If they ever apologize for any of it, what a lot of people are going to hear is "This is racist, and you are a racist for supporting it, and your dad was a racist when he brought you to games 30 years ago, and his dad was a racist, etc. etc."
Good. They should. 'Cause, see, the thing is, it is, they are, he was, and so was he, all the way down. Are you saying they aren't? They are. They're all giving their OK to racism every time they support the team no matter how they do it. Perhaps they have never considered it since it's always been around. Perhaps they are in denial. But when everyone is screaming at them from all angles, HEY RACIST, WHAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING IS RACIST, and they still feel those excuses are valid, that looks a whole lot like just plain not giving a shit that they're racist. You know, like a racist would do. Because they are racist. As fuck.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:24 PM on October 18, 2016
Good. They should. 'Cause, see, the thing is, it is, they are, he was, and so was he, all the way down. Are you saying they aren't? They are. They're all giving their OK to racism every time they support the team no matter how they do it. Perhaps they have never considered it since it's always been around. Perhaps they are in denial. But when everyone is screaming at them from all angles, HEY RACIST, WHAT YOU ARE SUPPORTING IS RACIST, and they still feel those excuses are valid, that looks a whole lot like just plain not giving a shit that they're racist. You know, like a racist would do. Because they are racist. As fuck.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:24 PM on October 18, 2016
Existential Dread: "college football, I want to like you but between this and the Ann Arbor Is A Whore t-shirts Michigan Staters like to parade around in you make it so damned hard"
...is this a thing? I've not seen one of those in the wild. (2nd generation Spartan... I've seen offensive stuff both directions but not that particular shirt, which makes me feel it's either a new thing or not as common as you think it is)
posted by caution live frogs at 1:33 PM on October 18, 2016
...is this a thing? I've not seen one of those in the wild. (2nd generation Spartan... I've seen offensive stuff both directions but not that particular shirt, which makes me feel it's either a new thing or not as common as you think it is)
posted by caution live frogs at 1:33 PM on October 18, 2016
On a meta-level above this particular issue and story, the way I see it is how in the last decade or two or however long that we've turned racism into a boogeyman, instead of a tendency. Bigotry comes in all forms, and everyone is guilty of it to some extent. There is no hard or fast rules that define racism, and once you express it or have, it isn't some sort of mark of Cain that should make you a pariah. Rather, it should be a thing that can be cured, that can be overcome. The fact that we've turned racism into something that dismisses, that reduces people, helps fuels the counter-dismissal of "reverse racism" and other canards. People should accept when they've behaved racistly in the past, and repent accordingly. It's not so different from rudeness.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:12 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 2:12 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure if he still does, but growing up my dad always watched baseball on mute with a radio sitting next to him playing the radio broadcast. Apparently the announcers are way better.
That's how my grandfather would watch both Reds and Pacers games.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:29 PM on October 18, 2016
That's how my grandfather would watch both Reds and Pacers games.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:29 PM on October 18, 2016
They're all giving their OK to racism every time they support the team no matter how they do it.
And that's why the charge of racism has lost its sting.
posted by jpe at 3:58 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
And that's why the charge of racism has lost its sting.
posted by jpe at 3:58 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
By November 2nd, we should be able to rename them the Cleveland Champions.
Go Tribe!
posted by BurntHombre at 5:14 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Go Tribe!
posted by BurntHombre at 5:14 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
There is no hard or fast rules that define racism, and once you express it or have, it isn't some sort of mark of Cain that should make you a pariah. Rather, it should be a thing that can be cured, that can be overcome.
It is the latter, always has been, always will be. All it takes to get the stink off is 1. admitting it, and 2. rejecting it. Two steps. Two very, very easy steps. "I was wrong. I will try." That's it. Really.
Which is what makes shit like this so frustrating. Fixing the problem would be incredibly easy. But the people who can do it won't. Why not? Laziness? Stubbornness? Cowardice? Indifference? Doesn't matter. It's racist, and they're racist as long as they support it.
And that's why the charge of racism has lost its sting.
It's not a charge, and it's not a sting. It's a description. It is accurate.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:01 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is the latter, always has been, always will be. All it takes to get the stink off is 1. admitting it, and 2. rejecting it. Two steps. Two very, very easy steps. "I was wrong. I will try." That's it. Really.
Which is what makes shit like this so frustrating. Fixing the problem would be incredibly easy. But the people who can do it won't. Why not? Laziness? Stubbornness? Cowardice? Indifference? Doesn't matter. It's racist, and they're racist as long as they support it.
And that's why the charge of racism has lost its sting.
It's not a charge, and it's not a sting. It's a description. It is accurate.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:01 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
From back in March: Indigenous critic Jesse Wente on CBC's Metro Morning : "We are NOT your mascots. We are human beings." Transcript here, but watch the video. It's worth it.
posted by emeiji at 7:43 PM on October 18, 2016
posted by emeiji at 7:43 PM on October 18, 2016
But the people who can do it won't. Why not? Laziness? Stubbornness? Cowardice? Indifference? Doesn't matter. It's racist, and they're racist as long as they support it.
I think part of it is that some people have become inured to accusations of racism, that they have warped views of it such as people crying racist thing they are reducible and unredeemable, see the safe-to-bash stereotypes of the ignorant hillbilly or racist redneck, and so what we're seeing throughout America right now is the knee-jerk response to either ignore accusations of racism, or even darker, to embrace it and wear it proudly.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:36 AM on October 19, 2016
I think part of it is that some people have become inured to accusations of racism, that they have warped views of it such as people crying racist thing they are reducible and unredeemable, see the safe-to-bash stereotypes of the ignorant hillbilly or racist redneck, and so what we're seeing throughout America right now is the knee-jerk response to either ignore accusations of racism, or even darker, to embrace it and wear it proudly.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:36 AM on October 19, 2016
The tribe won in the court and in the ballpark.
posted by jpe at 3:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jpe at 3:52 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
they have warped views of it such as people crying racist thing they are reducible and unredeemable saying that supporting the Cleveland franchise is racist
Which we've seen in this thread. And if racism is going to include things that aren't problematic, people stop caring if others call them racist.
posted by jpe at 3:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Which we've seen in this thread. And if racism is going to include things that aren't problematic, people stop caring if others call them racist.
posted by jpe at 3:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
The tribe company won in the court and in the ballpark.
No shit. The series is over already. The Cleveland Racists won. Hooray.
things that aren't problematic
Which things would those be? Supporting the Cleveland Racists? Giving support to racism is racist. Turning a blind eye to racism is racist. How hard is that to understand?
posted by Sys Rq at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2016
No shit. The series is over already. The Cleveland Racists won. Hooray.
things that aren't problematic
Which things would those be? Supporting the Cleveland Racists? Giving support to racism is racist. Turning a blind eye to racism is racist. How hard is that to understand?
posted by Sys Rq at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2016
The Curse of Chief Wahoo: Are we paying the price for embracing America's last acceptable racist symbol?
To many if not most Clevelanders, Chief Wahoo has never represented a race of people at all, but a benevolent symbol of the magic of those first trips to the ballpark: a smiling, slugging alien angel of joy. Given these positive associations, many find it especially easy to ignore that Wahoo was created in an era when popular attitudes toward minorities were quite different than they are today.Redface has another big day at the ballpark in Cleveland
...
When the Cleveland baseball club was renamed the Indians from the Naps in 1915, the Civil Rights Act was still 49 years from reality. Women could not vote, and racism against all minorities raged across America. It hadn't yet been three full decades since Custer's Last Stand, and the bloody Indian Wars continued in the American West into the 1920s.
At one point during the conversation I showed Rodriguez a copy of Aaron Sechrist’s artwork from the 2012 Scene cover story on the logo depicting a Chief Wahoo bobblehead next to a blackfaced lawn jockey drawn in the same style. I asked him if he’d ever show up at a baseball game in blackface, to which he replied that he wouldn’t. I then asked him why redface was any more excusable and he struggled to come up with an answer.posted by Western Infidels at 8:23 PM on October 22, 2016
There's something weird and occasionally deeply destructive about the cult of sports. Tying a team to a particular place or university was a stroke of genius. It gives fans of a team a sense of greater cultural identity, of banding together and us against them. And of course it means that any legitimate criticism of a team or the company that owns it is a de facto attack on our people, dammit! So people get their backs up and double down on whatever it is that others are criticizing. You can see it with the Washington DC football team, with the Cleveland baseball team, and at its absolute worst, with Penn State and their blind lionizing of a coach who enabled decades of child rape, simply because he won a lot of games.
This kind of willful blindness is pretty fucked. It's a goddamn sports team, a for profit corporation, not a reason for living. They'd change the damned logo tomorrow if it made them some extra bucks, but they're resisting because they worry it'll cost them money. Nothing more.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:39 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
This kind of willful blindness is pretty fucked. It's a goddamn sports team, a for profit corporation, not a reason for living. They'd change the damned logo tomorrow if it made them some extra bucks, but they're resisting because they worry it'll cost them money. Nothing more.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:39 PM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, there are a number of really disquieting aspects to sports culture that go beyond any team name issues, and most of them are tied to this weird notion of extended identity via rooting for a sports team, and usually some corporate or quasi-corporate entity behind it.
Due to that, the entire business of sports often has this really unhealthy attitude surrounding how people are treated, even among the athletes themselves, where the business mentality that makes athletes in team sports commodities to be shipped around from team to team when there is some perceived advantage to be gained is a dehumanizing way to look at people. The fan is expected to largely tie themselves to the team identity and treat the athletes themselves as simply assets to be used for advantage. You root for a guy while he's on your team, root for him to be traded if you can get a better asset in return, and ignore any character issues as long as the athlete can stay on the field and is contributing to winning games.
With an attitude that sees people as fungible pieces of corporate property to be used in whatever way most benefits the corporation, it can't be too surprising that attitudes about whole groups of people follow much the same pattern. It's all about me and my need for validation through a team that has nothing at all to really do with me other than being given space to run their business near where I live or grew up. Because that set of values is shared by many others in the community, it gains a sense of being natural even as a few moments reflection should give many people pause if that same attitude to be applied to their own lives.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:45 PM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Due to that, the entire business of sports often has this really unhealthy attitude surrounding how people are treated, even among the athletes themselves, where the business mentality that makes athletes in team sports commodities to be shipped around from team to team when there is some perceived advantage to be gained is a dehumanizing way to look at people. The fan is expected to largely tie themselves to the team identity and treat the athletes themselves as simply assets to be used for advantage. You root for a guy while he's on your team, root for him to be traded if you can get a better asset in return, and ignore any character issues as long as the athlete can stay on the field and is contributing to winning games.
With an attitude that sees people as fungible pieces of corporate property to be used in whatever way most benefits the corporation, it can't be too surprising that attitudes about whole groups of people follow much the same pattern. It's all about me and my need for validation through a team that has nothing at all to really do with me other than being given space to run their business near where I live or grew up. Because that set of values is shared by many others in the community, it gains a sense of being natural even as a few moments reflection should give many people pause if that same attitude to be applied to their own lives.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:45 PM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which we've seen in this thread. And if racism is going to include things that aren't problematic, people stop caring if others call them racist.
I feel the need to point out again, that the groups protesting Native American mascots are the survivors of a literal and cultural genocide, who today are one of the most impoverished groups in the United States and Canada, with protests about treaty obligations and land sovereignty resulting in the arrests of 83 protesters over the weekend in police actions reminiscent of Selma, a murder spree against Indigenous women in Canada with over 1,000 cases (according to police) and possibly as many as 4,000 (according to advocates), and a suicide epidemic. Native American activists don't just object to appropriation, caricature, and stereotype as white people stealing their stuff (although that's a part of it), they object because that's part of a broader system of oppression where Native American people end up dead.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:18 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
I feel the need to point out again, that the groups protesting Native American mascots are the survivors of a literal and cultural genocide, who today are one of the most impoverished groups in the United States and Canada, with protests about treaty obligations and land sovereignty resulting in the arrests of 83 protesters over the weekend in police actions reminiscent of Selma, a murder spree against Indigenous women in Canada with over 1,000 cases (according to police) and possibly as many as 4,000 (according to advocates), and a suicide epidemic. Native American activists don't just object to appropriation, caricature, and stereotype as white people stealing their stuff (although that's a part of it), they object because that's part of a broader system of oppression where Native American people end up dead.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:18 AM on October 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
MLB has confirmed its leadership will meet with Larry Dolan in the off-season to discuss the logo.
posted by mama casserole at 12:03 PM on October 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by mama casserole at 12:03 PM on October 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've been enjoying watch the series a ton (GO CUBS!), but I'm so sick of looking at the Cleveland logo and hearing the "war cries" in the background crowd noise. It's so gross.
posted by rtha at 9:53 AM on November 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by rtha at 9:53 AM on November 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
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posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:07 AM on October 17, 2016 [35 favorites]