A LARP where everyone forgot their character sheets
October 18, 2016 9:44 AM Subscribe
On FanFare: the original Westworld movie, the sequel Futureworld, and the new series. Not (yet) posted: Beyond Futureworld, which from viewing the first episode, is another few hours of viewing you can probably skip.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 9:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm kind of looking forwards to HBO getting around to Romeworld.
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on October 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:52 AM on October 18, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm enjoying the series because it gives me what I get from shows like Game of Thrones and Mr. Robot in that I have no fucking idea what is going on until I read a few on-line recaps and watch the entire series again three or four times.
posted by bondcliff at 9:54 AM on October 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by bondcliff at 9:54 AM on October 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm actually enjoying the cognition/identity theme playing out in the series. It's well acted and well shot, but I think the script is trying to roll a ball bearing down the edge of a razor blade and succeeding...for now. I'm holding my breath.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:54 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:54 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I was surprised that in the original film, Romanworld is sort of winkingly dismissed as where a fella's middle-aged wife goes to have sexy time with gladiators while he plays cowboy. Seems like in 2016 you could certainly do more and better with that park.
Though I do like how the creators of the new show have sort of zeroed in on the one park idea, rather than leaving things spread out and partially undeveloped.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on October 18, 2016
Though I do like how the creators of the new show have sort of zeroed in on the one park idea, rather than leaving things spread out and partially undeveloped.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:56 AM on October 18, 2016
I think the script is trying to roll a ball bearing down the edge of a razor blade and succeeding...for now. I'm holding my breath.
Ed Brubaker is involved, so that's some reassurance that they might know what they are doing and not just be winging it. Waiting to see if the bizarre logistics of the park are actually a plot point rather than something we are supposed to handwave and ignore, and if they are then if it will be an interesting plot point or some dumb Lost shit.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Ed Brubaker is involved, so that's some reassurance that they might know what they are doing and not just be winging it. Waiting to see if the bizarre logistics of the park are actually a plot point rather than something we are supposed to handwave and ignore, and if they are then if it will be an interesting plot point or some dumb Lost shit.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's (as usual) a bunch of ARG/promotional material. In particular some of the language in the waiver that the guests are supposed to sign could be read to imply that Delos Destinations runs other parks.
Since they want this to be a show running for about 5 seasons, it strikes me as definitely possible that they branch out into Romeworld. They might still have some of the props lying around.
posted by vogon_poet at 10:00 AM on October 18, 2016
Since they want this to be a show running for about 5 seasons, it strikes me as definitely possible that they branch out into Romeworld. They might still have some of the props lying around.
posted by vogon_poet at 10:00 AM on October 18, 2016
Did you see Person of Interest? Jonathan Nolan absolutely knows what he is doing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:00 AM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:00 AM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
I welcome any excuse to talk about Westworld, but that Verge article is kinda dumb. It seems to assume that three episodes in, we've seen the whole game. And it even ignores stuff we did see.
But yeah, this seems like it's going to be a great show.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:01 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
But yeah, this seems like it's going to be a great show.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:01 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I dunno, the game as shown very much has the flaws outlined - it doesn't really work as a game. I'm not sure there is really any requirement that it does work for the show to work as fiction, but whether or not it is intentionally a broken game has become a matter of fascination to me.
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
yes, same. i HAVE questions, so many questions, but wow are they doing a good job with distracting me from really worrying about them.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:15 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:15 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
They keep opening loops. So far there's:
1. Dolores' rising sentience. (her name means 'Sorrows' btw, that can't be an accident)
2. The other hosts' recurring memories and malfunctions
3. The Man in Black, the maze, and the 'game within a game'
4. Ford's new story line, and his tiny clone boy
5. Arnold and his legacy code (tied to 1 & 2, but distinct)
6. The 'real' purpose of Westworld to the corporation
7. Lowe's fascination with 1, tied to his lost son.
I'm really hoping they can close them satisfactorily. I'm optimist that there's a plan, but it's so hard to tell early on.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:21 AM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
1. Dolores' rising sentience. (her name means 'Sorrows' btw, that can't be an accident)
2. The other hosts' recurring memories and malfunctions
3. The Man in Black, the maze, and the 'game within a game'
4. Ford's new story line, and his tiny clone boy
5. Arnold and his legacy code (tied to 1 & 2, but distinct)
6. The 'real' purpose of Westworld to the corporation
7. Lowe's fascination with 1, tied to his lost son.
I'm really hoping they can close them satisfactorily. I'm optimist that there's a plan, but it's so hard to tell early on.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:21 AM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
With a few exceptions (like the aforementioned rescue), visitors end up tagging along with a sheriff or gunslinger who comes off as the real star of the show.
Those all seemed like intro quests. Black Hat & White Hat are on "JV Bullshit" quest and they're already out on their own.
Westworld seems totally solipsistic, and we've yet to encounter anyone who seems legitimately interested in role-playing.
White Hat is playing. There are families with kids going on safe adventures. The lady with the lever-action seemed to be earnestly playing until they actually met Wyatt's crew ("OH my FUCKING GOD!").
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:23 AM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Those all seemed like intro quests. Black Hat & White Hat are on "JV Bullshit" quest and they're already out on their own.
Westworld seems totally solipsistic, and we've yet to encounter anyone who seems legitimately interested in role-playing.
White Hat is playing. There are families with kids going on safe adventures. The lady with the lever-action seemed to be earnestly playing until they actually met Wyatt's crew ("OH my FUCKING GOD!").
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:23 AM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
The 'real' purpose of Westworld to the corporation
Mainly just assuming this is the plot to "Futureworld" and ignoring it for now.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on October 18, 2016
Mainly just assuming this is the plot to "Futureworld" and ignoring it for now.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on October 18, 2016
The 'real' purpose of Westworld to the corporation
Mainly just assuming this is the plot to "Futureworld" and ignoring it for now.
I seriously doubt that. You've got functioning independent autonomous agents with some degree of self-awareness edging towards consciousness and you use them for a theme park?
Most folks don't know how to interact with hosts, so they're clearly not common outside the park. The corporation has the capacity to replace pretty much all of human labor, but nobody has realized it yet.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:29 AM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Mainly just assuming this is the plot to "Futureworld" and ignoring it for now.
I seriously doubt that. You've got functioning independent autonomous agents with some degree of self-awareness edging towards consciousness and you use them for a theme park?
Most folks don't know how to interact with hosts, so they're clearly not common outside the park. The corporation has the capacity to replace pretty much all of human labor, but nobody has realized it yet.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:29 AM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
How much sexual violence is in the new Westworld?
posted by My Dad at 10:32 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by My Dad at 10:32 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I disagree with the idea Westworld is a "bad videogame" because at least it seems the creators (of the park, not the show) seemed to take into account some of the people will act like homicidal douchecanoes, while plenty of "good" videogames at least until the previous generation had no scripting to make the reactions from the NPCs match the players' actions.
I mean, I still read a lot about the "great story" in Red Dead Redemption (particularly today, now that RDR2 was announced). But this "great story" had Marston playing the retired outlaw trying to atone his sins and get on with this life, but the moment the player takes control, he can go to the nearest saloon, shoot the whole place up and everyone he encounters just because, until the next plot cutscene requires him to be the wholesome character again. Total disconnect.
Or, you know, this.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:32 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, I still read a lot about the "great story" in Red Dead Redemption (particularly today, now that RDR2 was announced). But this "great story" had Marston playing the retired outlaw trying to atone his sins and get on with this life, but the moment the player takes control, he can go to the nearest saloon, shoot the whole place up and everyone he encounters just because, until the next plot cutscene requires him to be the wholesome character again. Total disconnect.
Or, you know, this.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:32 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Futureworld is more of a *SPOILERS* villain plot from 60s Casino Royale / villain plot from Spy Kids type deal. Also pretty boring IIRC.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on October 18, 2016
1. Dolores' rising sentience. (her name means 'Sorrows' btw, that can't be an accident)
The corp's name is also Delos and she was the first bot, which is probably why I keep misspelling it Delores.
posted by phunniemee at 10:38 AM on October 18, 2016
The corp's name is also Delos and she was the first bot, which is probably why I keep misspelling it Delores.
posted by phunniemee at 10:38 AM on October 18, 2016
So many articles on Westworld are just pissing me off (although I appreciate this post) because people just can't wait to explain how badly this show is going to disappoint us. I admit, I got nervous when I found out that J.J. "Lost" Abrams was a producer, but I'd like to hold my complaints until after the show lets me down. Which it very well might. But so far, I'm intrigued by the storylines the writers are building.
As for the Verge article, I think the writer's complaints come from wanting Westworld to be a different show.
"Westworld seems totally solipsistic, and we've yet to encounter anyone who seems legitimately interested in role-playing."
We haven't seen much of the story from the guests' perspective yet, with the exception of William and his horny friend. I'm here for the story about robots gaining self-awareness and kicking some ass. I don't really care about the logistics of the part itself because it's not the story this particular show is telling. Give me enough details to set the story in motion, and I'm good.
I find it exhausting when people spend so much time quibbling over the logistics of a science-fiction/fantasy story, especially if they're TV shows or films, which have much less room for exposition. Most speculative stories aimed at a general audience will depend heavily on metaphor and suggestion, with enough world-building to establish context and a way for the audience to identify with the characters; I would hate to see Dorlores' story curtailed so we can get more details about park logistics.
"There are many people who perform gleeful cruelty against innocents in games at some point, but very few people buy games for this sole purpose, much less games that cost $40,000 a day to play."
I don't think we know what people would spend $40,000 on, if that was an option. Also, I don't know why we assume that violence would be the sole purpose. If it was, why bother with the wild west scenery? Just let people shoot robots for fun.
"Violent games rarely encourage us to be indiscriminately cruel, they just tell us that any cruelty is justified if it's against the right people."
and
"For all the flak games (often rightly) get about sexism, the industry is already far ahead of HBO's imagined future."
I'm not sure I would agree with these sentiments, even if recent events hadn't ruined my faith in inevitable social progress. Emily Nussbaum (who I usually agree with) has an article in this week's New Yorker where she criticizes the show for catering to male fantasies. I'm all for more feminism in entertainment, but I also think that if the show is using your standard AAA game as a model for the park, random violence and the straight male gaze would make up at least 75% of the action.* Yes, things are getting better, but even more narrative-focused games have the primary objective being "Go from A to B and kill everyone who gets in your way. And here are some female prostitutes if you get bored." And I say that as someone who enjoys mowing down hoards of orcs/guards/faceless impediments because it's satisfying to me. What that says about my own morality, and the line that separates what I enjoy doing in games versus what I would never condone in real life, is a question that draws me to the show.
And I'm hoping that by focusing on Dolores, the character who exists to be violated, the show might explore the misogyny that is so prevalent in popular entertainment. Or it might be an excuse to show us a bunch of rape scenes. It's not like I haven't been let down before.
*Unless it's a Bioware park, whose primary goal is to make you cry.
posted by bibliowench at 10:38 AM on October 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
As for the Verge article, I think the writer's complaints come from wanting Westworld to be a different show.
"Westworld seems totally solipsistic, and we've yet to encounter anyone who seems legitimately interested in role-playing."
We haven't seen much of the story from the guests' perspective yet, with the exception of William and his horny friend. I'm here for the story about robots gaining self-awareness and kicking some ass. I don't really care about the logistics of the part itself because it's not the story this particular show is telling. Give me enough details to set the story in motion, and I'm good.
I find it exhausting when people spend so much time quibbling over the logistics of a science-fiction/fantasy story, especially if they're TV shows or films, which have much less room for exposition. Most speculative stories aimed at a general audience will depend heavily on metaphor and suggestion, with enough world-building to establish context and a way for the audience to identify with the characters; I would hate to see Dorlores' story curtailed so we can get more details about park logistics.
"There are many people who perform gleeful cruelty against innocents in games at some point, but very few people buy games for this sole purpose, much less games that cost $40,000 a day to play."
I don't think we know what people would spend $40,000 on, if that was an option. Also, I don't know why we assume that violence would be the sole purpose. If it was, why bother with the wild west scenery? Just let people shoot robots for fun.
"Violent games rarely encourage us to be indiscriminately cruel, they just tell us that any cruelty is justified if it's against the right people."
and
"For all the flak games (often rightly) get about sexism, the industry is already far ahead of HBO's imagined future."
I'm not sure I would agree with these sentiments, even if recent events hadn't ruined my faith in inevitable social progress. Emily Nussbaum (who I usually agree with) has an article in this week's New Yorker where she criticizes the show for catering to male fantasies. I'm all for more feminism in entertainment, but I also think that if the show is using your standard AAA game as a model for the park, random violence and the straight male gaze would make up at least 75% of the action.* Yes, things are getting better, but even more narrative-focused games have the primary objective being "Go from A to B and kill everyone who gets in your way. And here are some female prostitutes if you get bored." And I say that as someone who enjoys mowing down hoards of orcs/guards/faceless impediments because it's satisfying to me. What that says about my own morality, and the line that separates what I enjoy doing in games versus what I would never condone in real life, is a question that draws me to the show.
And I'm hoping that by focusing on Dolores, the character who exists to be violated, the show might explore the misogyny that is so prevalent in popular entertainment. Or it might be an excuse to show us a bunch of rape scenes. It's not like I haven't been let down before.
*Unless it's a Bioware park, whose primary goal is to make you cry.
posted by bibliowench at 10:38 AM on October 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm enjoying it so far but I do hope that the creators/writers have more a plan for the show than their counterparts at Lost or Galactica.
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 10:42 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Most folks don't know how to interact with hosts, so they're clearly not common outside the park. The corporation has the capacity to replace pretty much all of human labor, but nobody has realized it yet.
You don't need a host to achieve the replace human labor bit, you need one of these. This may well be a future in which robots capable of completing a loop's worth of tasks are indeed commonplace in the world, and the park's killer app is in making such bots look and feel like humans.
The Verge piece reads like it was written after watching only the pilot. It's interesting also, he suggest the show conceives of gamers as sadists, but when he mows down pedestrians in GTA he's not being sadistic because he's not doing it out of a desire to inflict pain, since pedestrians in GTA can't feel pain. Well, from the perspective of the guests at Westworld, neither can the hosts. As far as the guests are concerned, it's no more sadistic to murder a cowboy in Westworld than to gun down a terrorist in Call of Duty. It's only from the host's perspective that the guests appear sadistic. I'll grant that the show seems to be pushing hard to make sure the viewer shares the hosts' PoV on the matter.
posted by Diablevert at 10:44 AM on October 18, 2016
You don't need a host to achieve the replace human labor bit, you need one of these. This may well be a future in which robots capable of completing a loop's worth of tasks are indeed commonplace in the world, and the park's killer app is in making such bots look and feel like humans.
The Verge piece reads like it was written after watching only the pilot. It's interesting also, he suggest the show conceives of gamers as sadists, but when he mows down pedestrians in GTA he's not being sadistic because he's not doing it out of a desire to inflict pain, since pedestrians in GTA can't feel pain. Well, from the perspective of the guests at Westworld, neither can the hosts. As far as the guests are concerned, it's no more sadistic to murder a cowboy in Westworld than to gun down a terrorist in Call of Duty. It's only from the host's perspective that the guests appear sadistic. I'll grant that the show seems to be pushing hard to make sure the viewer shares the hosts' PoV on the matter.
posted by Diablevert at 10:44 AM on October 18, 2016
I'm finding the shooting locations so familiar as to be distracting.
Hey, there's Castle Valley! Now they're in the Fiery Furnace. Wait, Monument Valley?
posted by gottabefunky at 10:48 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hey, there's Castle Valley! Now they're in the Fiery Furnace. Wait, Monument Valley?
posted by gottabefunky at 10:48 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
So many articles on Westworld are just pissing me off (although I appreciate this post) because people just can't wait to explain how badly this show is going to disappoint us. I admit, I got nervous when I found out that J.J. "Lost" Abrams was a producer, but I'd like to hold my complaints until after the show lets me down. Which it very well might. But so far, I'm intrigued by the storylines the writers are building.
Seriously: the reason Westworld threads are full of people like myself constantly saying, "Yes, but Person of Interest!" is because the team behind the new Westworld has a great deal of overlap with the team that made Person of Interest (Nolan, Abrams). And while I understand that PoI was a low-rated show that never carved a big niche in the cultural landscape (mostly because it snuck onto tv by pretending to be a procedural, only unraveling its central AI storyline gradually), it's really useful as a test case for Westworld.
Because if you find yourself asking, "Can this team successfully execute an intelligent, carefully put together, cerebral take on artificial intelligence?" you really need to know it's not a hypothetical. THEY CAN. We know this, because they've already done it once.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
Seriously: the reason Westworld threads are full of people like myself constantly saying, "Yes, but Person of Interest!" is because the team behind the new Westworld has a great deal of overlap with the team that made Person of Interest (Nolan, Abrams). And while I understand that PoI was a low-rated show that never carved a big niche in the cultural landscape (mostly because it snuck onto tv by pretending to be a procedural, only unraveling its central AI storyline gradually), it's really useful as a test case for Westworld.
Because if you find yourself asking, "Can this team successfully execute an intelligent, carefully put together, cerebral take on artificial intelligence?" you really need to know it's not a hypothetical. THEY CAN. We know this, because they've already done it once.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm still waiting for it to kick in. So far it's been a little mediocre in my opinion. I like the "deeper level of the game" plot line and I think it's got a lot of potential.
And I think the dialogue writing and delivery is often outstandingly bad. Especially the cursing it's so contrived and unrealistic, it has no impact other than distraction. It's like they tried to pack in the word "fuck" as much as possible just because it's on HBO. "You can be whoever the FUCK you wanna be" ...Lame!
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I think the dialogue writing and delivery is often outstandingly bad. Especially the cursing it's so contrived and unrealistic, it has no impact other than distraction. It's like they tried to pack in the word "fuck" as much as possible just because it's on HBO. "You can be whoever the FUCK you wanna be" ...Lame!
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
How much sexual violence is in the new Westworld?
enough to make me hesitant about watching it initially, but it's not as egregious or graphic as game of thrones. so far it's been implied, threatened, off-camera'd/faded to black, etc. idk if i can describe it better without being spoilery?
posted by poffin boffin at 10:52 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
enough to make me hesitant about watching it initially, but it's not as egregious or graphic as game of thrones. so far it's been implied, threatened, off-camera'd/faded to black, etc. idk if i can describe it better without being spoilery?
posted by poffin boffin at 10:52 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
My Dad: How much sexual violence is in the new Westworld?
So far (at a mere 3 episodes), a LOT less than Game of Thrones, the other major HBO "signature series" or whatever they call their big budget shows. In fact, even the casual female nudity has dropped off from the first episode, where there were a number of naked female "hosts" (cyborgs/ robots). In fact, I think all the sexual violence is off-screen and suggested, so might not actually be what it seems to be.
In short: far more physically violent than sexually violent (if it has been), so far. But keep in mind that this is supposed to be the "lawless west," where dudes can do what they want, might makes right, etc.
There are also more, notable female characters as the season has progressed.
leotrotsky: The 'real' purpose of Westworld to the corporation
Artw: Mainly just assuming this is the plot to "Futureworld" and ignoring it for now.
leotrotsky: I seriously doubt that. You've got functioning independent autonomous agents with some degree of self-awareness edging towards consciousness and you use them for a theme park?
Beyond Westworld touches on the ridiculousness of making amazing, life-like robots to be play toys, but it also feels like a crude spin-off of the original movie, which was the most interesting of the original world(s).
Artw: Futureworld is more of a *SPOILERS* villain plot from 60s Casino Royale / villain plot from Spy Kids type deal. Also pretty boring IIRC.
Yeah, that's a decent summary of how the movie actually goes. Futureworld is about the dream for world peace through robots, roughly speaking. It isn't as thrilling as it tries to be, having seen it recently. Interesting idea, poor execution, in my opinion.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:55 AM on October 18, 2016
So far (at a mere 3 episodes), a LOT less than Game of Thrones, the other major HBO "signature series" or whatever they call their big budget shows. In fact, even the casual female nudity has dropped off from the first episode, where there were a number of naked female "hosts" (cyborgs/ robots). In fact, I think all the sexual violence is off-screen and suggested, so might not actually be what it seems to be.
In short: far more physically violent than sexually violent (if it has been), so far. But keep in mind that this is supposed to be the "lawless west," where dudes can do what they want, might makes right, etc.
There are also more, notable female characters as the season has progressed.
leotrotsky: The 'real' purpose of Westworld to the corporation
Artw: Mainly just assuming this is the plot to "Futureworld" and ignoring it for now.
leotrotsky: I seriously doubt that. You've got functioning independent autonomous agents with some degree of self-awareness edging towards consciousness and you use them for a theme park?
Beyond Westworld touches on the ridiculousness of making amazing, life-like robots to be play toys, but it also feels like a crude spin-off of the original movie, which was the most interesting of the original world(s).
Artw: Futureworld is more of a *SPOILERS* villain plot from 60s Casino Royale / villain plot from Spy Kids type deal. Also pretty boring IIRC.
Yeah, that's a decent summary of how the movie actually goes. Futureworld is about the dream for world peace through robots, roughly speaking. It isn't as thrilling as it tries to be, having seen it recently. Interesting idea, poor execution, in my opinion.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:55 AM on October 18, 2016
How much sexual violence is in the new Westworld?
enough to make me hesitant about watching it initially, but it's not as egregious or graphic as game of thrones. so far it's been implied, threatened, off-camera'd/faded to black, etc. idk if i can describe it better without being spoilery?
They certainly frontloaded in that regard, which was a little eye-rolling.
posted by Artw at 10:55 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
enough to make me hesitant about watching it initially, but it's not as egregious or graphic as game of thrones. so far it's been implied, threatened, off-camera'd/faded to black, etc. idk if i can describe it better without being spoilery?
They certainly frontloaded in that regard, which was a little eye-rolling.
posted by Artw at 10:55 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's also pretty clear the creators of the show have pretty damning opinions about the park and its guests and their part in this sexual violence. These chickens seem due to come home to roost at some point.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:56 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:56 AM on October 18, 2016
And I think the dialogue writing and delivery is often outstandingly bad.
My impression is that a lot of the Old West-y dialogue is meant to sound kind of corny, no?
posted by gottabefunky at 10:58 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
My impression is that a lot of the Old West-y dialogue is meant to sound kind of corny, no?
posted by gottabefunky at 10:58 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it a bit Hunger Games? My 14 year old daughter is going to go bananas for it, if it's that with swearing and sex.
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:59 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 10:59 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
And I think the dialogue writing and delivery is often outstandingly bad.
My impression is that a lot of the Old West-y dialogue is meant to sound kind of corny, no?
Actually I mean the dialogue by everyone other than the robots...the scientists and tourists. It feels stale and unrealistic Especially the tourists being such cliche assholes that we're just counting the minutes until the robots revolt and destroy them.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:04 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
My impression is that a lot of the Old West-y dialogue is meant to sound kind of corny, no?
Actually I mean the dialogue by everyone other than the robots...the scientists and tourists. It feels stale and unrealistic Especially the tourists being such cliche assholes that we're just counting the minutes until the robots revolt and destroy them.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:04 AM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it a bit Hunger Games? My 14 year old daughter is going to go bananas for it, if it's that with swearing and sex.
I wouldn't say it's anything like Hunger Games. More like Jurassic Park meets Blade Runner... but not nearly as cool as I'm making it sound.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:08 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't say it's anything like Hunger Games. More like Jurassic Park meets Blade Runner... but not nearly as cool as I'm making it sound.
posted by Liquidwolf at 11:08 AM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Actually I mean the dialogue by everyone other than the robots...the scientists and tourists. It feels stale and unrealistic Especially the tourists being such cliche assholes that we're just counting the minutes until the robots revolt and destroy them.
What I don't get is why is this not a miniseries! If any story has a clear beginning, middle, and end, it's Westworld.
Have a season, let it end, move on to another story.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:22 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
What I don't get is why is this not a miniseries! If any story has a clear beginning, middle, and end, it's Westworld.
Have a season, let it end, move on to another story.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:22 AM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have, of course, naturally assumed the buzzare logistics of the park and it not being a very good video game is cause it was never intended to be a vacationland LARP but rather a way to stress test robot bodies and androids to one day be used to for like, transhumanist immortal robot bodies but they accidentally made the test subjects self aware along the way.
posted by The Whelk at 11:34 AM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:34 AM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
Well I hope the bodies get thoroughly cleanesd before that.
posted by Artw at 11:39 AM on October 18, 2016
posted by Artw at 11:39 AM on October 18, 2016
"yet to encounter anyone who seems legitimately interested in role-playing"
Yeah was this written with just the pilot? Cause William is totally trying for immersion (and failing cause his friend/future brother in law keeps being a jerk and or hitting on him) and Lady Bounty Hunter is loving the HELL out of being a renegade Shepard there.
posted by The Whelk at 11:41 AM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah was this written with just the pilot? Cause William is totally trying for immersion (and failing cause his friend/future brother in law keeps being a jerk and or hitting on him) and Lady Bounty Hunter is loving the HELL out of being a renegade Shepard there.
posted by The Whelk at 11:41 AM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Lady Bounty Hunter is best character.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on October 18, 2016 [11 favorites]
She really is. And I think she complicates the assumption that all guests are amoral assholes if they play along with the Wild West storyline.
"Hey, I just shot that bad guy!"
"Hey, this lady wants to have sex with me!"
"OH MY FUCKING GOD!"
I can identify with her reactions, and I hope we see her again.
posted by bibliowench at 12:01 PM on October 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
"Hey, I just shot that bad guy!"
"Hey, this lady wants to have sex with me!"
"OH MY FUCKING GOD!"
I can identify with her reactions, and I hope we see her again.
posted by bibliowench at 12:01 PM on October 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
And I think the dialogue writing and delivery is often outstandingly bad. Especially the cursing it's so contrived and unrealistic, it has no impact other than distraction. It's like they tried to pack in the word "fuck" as much as possible just because it's on HBO.
Never watch The Leftovers, then. (An otherwise great show ((crossed fingers they don't blow it in the final season)) but the excessive casual use of profanity by every single character reeks of dialogue written by a college freshman having his first go at writing an "edgy" screenplay.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:12 PM on October 18, 2016
Never watch The Leftovers, then. (An otherwise great show ((crossed fingers they don't blow it in the final season)) but the excessive casual use of profanity by every single character reeks of dialogue written by a college freshman having his first go at writing an "edgy" screenplay.)
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:12 PM on October 18, 2016
What I don't get is why is this not a miniseries! If any story has a clear beginning, middle, and end, it's Westworld.
Have a season, let it end, move on to another story.
While HBO has done single season miniseries, a big part of their business model relies on must-watch shows that run for multiple seasons. With Game of Thrones ending in a dozen episodes, they're looking for a replacement.
posted by justkevin at 12:19 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Have a season, let it end, move on to another story.
While HBO has done single season miniseries, a big part of their business model relies on must-watch shows that run for multiple seasons. With Game of Thrones ending in a dozen episodes, they're looking for a replacement.
posted by justkevin at 12:19 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Reportedly a large part of why the series was so delayed was to take time to expand it to a five season plan rather than a limited run one off
posted by The Whelk at 12:30 PM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 12:30 PM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm pretty interested in what the show reveals of the outside world. It so far seems like some kind of dystopia with massive amounts of income inequality and sexism. So like now...but with better technology. Of course such awful people would be interested in an awful exploitative "game." The same way bored awful rich people now are interested in big game hunting (which if it were a video game, would be a bad one).
posted by melissam at 12:31 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by melissam at 12:31 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
And I think the dialogue writing and delivery is often outstandingly bad. Especially the cursing it's so contrived and unrealistic, it has no impact other than distraction. It's like they tried to pack in the word "fuck" as much as possible just because it's on HBO.
Never watch The Leftovers, then. (An otherwise great show ((crossed fingers they don't blow it in the final season)) but the excessive casual use of profanity by every single character reeks of dialogue written by a college freshman having his first go at writing an "edgy" screenplay.)
I've haven't seen The Leftovers. But yeah that's exactly what I mean. There's are ways to use profanity effectively and ways to squander it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:31 PM on October 18, 2016
Never watch The Leftovers, then. (An otherwise great show ((crossed fingers they don't blow it in the final season)) but the excessive casual use of profanity by every single character reeks of dialogue written by a college freshman having his first go at writing an "edgy" screenplay.)
I've haven't seen The Leftovers. But yeah that's exactly what I mean. There's are ways to use profanity effectively and ways to squander it.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:31 PM on October 18, 2016
i haven't seen the show yet but when people first started talking about it i was genuinely confused as to why suddenly everyone was getting hyped on the old movie all at the same time.
anyway i'm very skeptical since there's no yul brynner involved
posted by burgerrr at 12:45 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
anyway i'm very skeptical since there's no yul brynner involved
posted by burgerrr at 12:45 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Have only seen the old Yul Brynner movie and feel similarly. But I take it from this Verge article that the game within the show is as bad as Hit By a Car and Art God from "ExistenZ."
posted by johngoren at 12:47 PM on October 18, 2016
posted by johngoren at 12:47 PM on October 18, 2016
Actually I mean the dialogue by everyone other than the robots...the scientists and tourists. It feels stale and unrealistic
Just wait until their programming starts to glitch.
posted by happyroach at 12:49 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just wait until their programming starts to glitch.
posted by happyroach at 12:49 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
anyway i'm very skeptical since there's no yul brynner involved
It seemed like Ed Harris might be the Yul Bruner, but no, he's worse.
There's Escaton, basically the end game boss whose role seems to be to charmingly murder half the town when he shows up, but he's not really turned out to be all that much.
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on October 18, 2016
It seemed like Ed Harris might be the Yul Bruner, but no, he's worse.
There's Escaton, basically the end game boss whose role seems to be to charmingly murder half the town when he shows up, but he's not really turned out to be all that much.
posted by Artw at 1:17 PM on October 18, 2016
There's Escaton, basically the end game boss whose role seems to be to charmingly murder half the town when he shows up, but he's not really turned out to be all that much.
There's only been three episodes, dude. Seems a bit early to write him off as a character.
I want to like this so much but the dialogue and acting are just killing me.
I thought the actress playing the woman from corporate was a little stiff. But the acting of the bulk of the main cast has been very impressive, to me, anyway --- Wright, Hopkins, Woods and Newton were all excellent. And the guy who played the dad in the pilot, his scene with Hopkins was what got me into the show. So I am genuinely confused by this comment.
posted by Diablevert at 1:30 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's only been three episodes, dude. Seems a bit early to write him off as a character.
I want to like this so much but the dialogue and acting are just killing me.
I thought the actress playing the woman from corporate was a little stiff. But the acting of the bulk of the main cast has been very impressive, to me, anyway --- Wright, Hopkins, Woods and Newton were all excellent. And the guy who played the dad in the pilot, his scene with Hopkins was what got me into the show. So I am genuinely confused by this comment.
posted by Diablevert at 1:30 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's Escaton, basically the end game boss whose role seems to be to charmingly murder half the town when he shows up
Man, I really wish I weren't so bad at learning characters' names. (It usually takes me at least a season worth of episodes to remember anyone other than the lead.) I had no idea that dude's name was Escaton. Eschaton is the biblical word for the state of the world juuuuust before the apocalypse.
SYMBOLISM
posted by phunniemee at 1:31 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
Man, I really wish I weren't so bad at learning characters' names. (It usually takes me at least a season worth of episodes to remember anyone other than the lead.) I had no idea that dude's name was Escaton. Eschaton is the biblical word for the state of the world juuuuust before the apocalypse.
SYMBOLISM
posted by phunniemee at 1:31 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
we've yet to encounter anyone who seems legitimately interested in role-playing
The dude who went with the posse (with his wife who made him come back when the robots started glitching) and then shot the bandit (is that Escaton)?
posted by mrgrimm at 1:34 PM on October 18, 2016
The dude who went with the posse (with his wife who made him come back when the robots started glitching) and then shot the bandit (is that Escaton)?
posted by mrgrimm at 1:34 PM on October 18, 2016
But really, everything leans very heavily towards HUMANS ARE THE REAL RELENTLESS KILLER COWBOYS NOW.
posted by Artw at 1:38 PM on October 18, 2016
posted by Artw at 1:38 PM on October 18, 2016
I'm tentatively watching it with my roommate but we finish the episode and then he doesn't want to talk about it which is kind of a bummer.
The less they focus on how awful male guests are to the robot women the happier I'll be. I don't have a really high tolerance for sexual sadism and I'm really glad that the show decided to really tone it down after that first episode. I found myself enjoying the third episode quite a bit more. I'm interested to see how it all turns out.
I don't think the writing is great but it seems to fit the feel that they're going for and I like that Westworld talks one way and the Science team talks another way. I can't wait to see what else they do with Thandie Newton, she's absolutely tremendous. It's also kind of weird seeing Rickety Cricket from IASIP, but I'm kind of liking him as well.
posted by Neronomius at 1:55 PM on October 18, 2016
The less they focus on how awful male guests are to the robot women the happier I'll be. I don't have a really high tolerance for sexual sadism and I'm really glad that the show decided to really tone it down after that first episode. I found myself enjoying the third episode quite a bit more. I'm interested to see how it all turns out.
I don't think the writing is great but it seems to fit the feel that they're going for and I like that Westworld talks one way and the Science team talks another way. I can't wait to see what else they do with Thandie Newton, she's absolutely tremendous. It's also kind of weird seeing Rickety Cricket from IASIP, but I'm kind of liking him as well.
posted by Neronomius at 1:55 PM on October 18, 2016
itym McPoyle, but if there was a random scene in some future episode where a horse runs by dragging Rickety Cricket behind him and that was never explained or referred to again, I'd be delighted
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:58 PM on October 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:58 PM on October 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have faith in this show after watching Person of Interest. Jonathan Nolan knows what he is doing.
posted by Pendragon at 2:13 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 2:13 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I stopped watching after the first dragging-into-the-barn scene, but may pick it back up if they do tone it down. Don't need yet another series with normalized sexual violence every other minute.
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:37 PM on October 18, 2016
posted by Celsius1414 at 2:37 PM on October 18, 2016
->prize bull octorok
Yeah, definitely meant McPoyle. I swear that I've seen David Hornsby in something recently and that must have gotten my wires all crossed. I wouldn't mind seeing him getting dragged by a horse, or maybe trying on a preacher's uniform.
posted by Neronomius at 2:37 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, definitely meant McPoyle. I swear that I've seen David Hornsby in something recently and that must have gotten my wires all crossed. I wouldn't mind seeing him getting dragged by a horse, or maybe trying on a preacher's uniform.
posted by Neronomius at 2:37 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, I still read a lot about the "great story" in Red Dead Redemption...
Well, it was standard going straight stuff, with some standard revenge stuff at the end, but for videogames it was pretty good. On top of that, great stories require some level of compliance from the "reader". Videogame stories are pretty easy to disconnect from the actual mechanics of gameplay, however. In fact I'd consider them superior to traditional storytelling because you get the story, and you also get to be involved however you see fit, without one thing affecting the other.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:35 PM on October 18, 2016
Well, it was standard going straight stuff, with some standard revenge stuff at the end, but for videogames it was pretty good. On top of that, great stories require some level of compliance from the "reader". Videogame stories are pretty easy to disconnect from the actual mechanics of gameplay, however. In fact I'd consider them superior to traditional storytelling because you get the story, and you also get to be involved however you see fit, without one thing affecting the other.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:35 PM on October 18, 2016
I stopped watching after the first dragging-into-the-barn scene, but may pick it back up if they do tone it down. Don't need yet another series with normalized sexual violence every other minute.
I agree. But I think we learned last night that that may not have been what it appeared to be. They did a flashback where they showed a little more. Still not pleasant but possibly not what we thought happened in the first episode.
posted by Liquidwolf at 3:36 PM on October 18, 2016
Regarding Westworld being a crap game, the feeling I got from the Ford flashback last episode (and I am probably massively projecting) was that the developers were so entranced with what they had created in the hosts that they expected that the park goers would be similarly entranced. Simple interaction and observation would be more than enough, like a barely interactive visual novel.
Instead that's boring, so the first guest who arrives immediately goes "right, I'm going to fuck that one and torture that other one to death" and the developers respond with "right, okay. If you want to suck we'll give you suck".
I must have the dirtiest mouth on the planet because the swearing on the show has not even registered with me.
posted by arha at 3:37 PM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Instead that's boring, so the first guest who arrives immediately goes "right, I'm going to fuck that one and torture that other one to death" and the developers respond with "right, okay. If you want to suck we'll give you suck".
I must have the dirtiest mouth on the planet because the swearing on the show has not even registered with me.
posted by arha at 3:37 PM on October 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
David Perry writing for Pacific Standard: Can ‘Westworld’ Give Us New Ways of Talking About Slavery? In its first four episodes, HBO’s latest Sunday-night extravaganza takes its postcolonialism seriously.
Daniel Pollack-Pelzner for Slate: Westworld Is Full Of Shakespeare Quotations, But It’s Using Them All Wrong
posted by Lexica at 3:41 PM on October 18, 2016
Daniel Pollack-Pelzner for Slate: Westworld Is Full Of Shakespeare Quotations, But It’s Using Them All Wrong
posted by Lexica at 3:41 PM on October 18, 2016
I caught a random episode last weekend at a hotel (I don't have HBO at home) and it was more interesting than I expected. The programmers in the story are trying to create the perfect Turing Test pass, and the problems that arise when they get closer to this goal made it psychologically complex. More interesting than just: "there's a bug in the program, the robots are revolting".
posted by ovvl at 5:01 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 5:01 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Really a perfect turing test pass would actually be a fail for them, as they want the simulation of intelligence but not an actual intelligence in the mix making things ethically messy. Of course, if that's what they end up with by accident there's there's now a huge disincentive to admitting it.
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 5:53 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
My wife, superior to me in all media-seventies things, is enjoying the show very much and she is INSISTENT that Ed is Yul.
My current operating hypotheses:
a) hosts are not emergent intelligences, they are successful caps of biological entities' brain states transferred to a nonbio host (thus the term). This is pure speculation uninformed by even a cursory examination of intarwebz fora.
b) "Westworld", and presumable postcursors such as "Futureworld" or "Romeworld" or "Wevvsworld" are not physical spaces maintained anywhere but the datasphere. Every guest we've followed to date falls asleep and then awakens on the train. The hosts are successfully harvested mindstates. The show itself is designed to take advantage of current silly valley interest in the "simulation hypothesis."
This is unlikely to ever be revealed in show, but the show *should*, If I am correct, leave this interpretation open throughout its run. No Turner Show reveal or McCoy touching the sky.
posted by mwhybark at 6:24 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
My current operating hypotheses:
a) hosts are not emergent intelligences, they are successful caps of biological entities' brain states transferred to a nonbio host (thus the term). This is pure speculation uninformed by even a cursory examination of intarwebz fora.
b) "Westworld", and presumable postcursors such as "Futureworld" or "Romeworld" or "Wevvsworld" are not physical spaces maintained anywhere but the datasphere. Every guest we've followed to date falls asleep and then awakens on the train. The hosts are successfully harvested mindstates. The show itself is designed to take advantage of current silly valley interest in the "simulation hypothesis."
This is unlikely to ever be revealed in show, but the show *should*, If I am correct, leave this interpretation open throughout its run. No Turner Show reveal or McCoy touching the sky.
posted by mwhybark at 6:24 PM on October 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
The comments on the stiffness of the cast playing the staff made me realize this show probably reads totally differently to people who don't work in the games industry.
My fiancee and I (both gamedevs) thought the performances were literally perfection, particularly the disaffected programmers and doubly so Sidse Knudsen's ball-busting ops manager - she is the perfect distillation of every hardcore female producer/project lead I have either worked with or married next week. I know and have worked with all of these people over the course of my career.
The only person who actually feels "off" is Luke Hemsworth's security lead - nobody is that much of a dickhead, even in higher-security studios when there's been a torrent of threats made against the staff you don't see that flavor of gung-ho assholery.
As a former cognitive science student I can't take any of the Turing stuff seriously - I groaned and facepalmed when they said the word "bicameral", even just to claim they were debunking - but it's been enormous fun and it's hilarious to see little nods to Bioshock throughout.
posted by Ryvar at 6:26 PM on October 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
My fiancee and I (both gamedevs) thought the performances were literally perfection, particularly the disaffected programmers and doubly so Sidse Knudsen's ball-busting ops manager - she is the perfect distillation of every hardcore female producer/project lead I have either worked with or married next week. I know and have worked with all of these people over the course of my career.
The only person who actually feels "off" is Luke Hemsworth's security lead - nobody is that much of a dickhead, even in higher-security studios when there's been a torrent of threats made against the staff you don't see that flavor of gung-ho assholery.
As a former cognitive science student I can't take any of the Turing stuff seriously - I groaned and facepalmed when they said the word "bicameral", even just to claim they were debunking - but it's been enormous fun and it's hilarious to see little nods to Bioshock throughout.
posted by Ryvar at 6:26 PM on October 18, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm kind of looking forwards to HBO getting around to Romeworld.
Given the last episode, I'm curious how this would play out. Bots need special permissions to even use a wood axe in WW, much less to engage in melee bladed combat. How would a pre-modern sim without gunpowder weapons even work?
RE: The article, in its last section: So it's entirely possible — even plausible — that Westworld is an intentionally dull, ill-designed place that self-selects for rich sociopaths with low standards.
Uhhh, yeah, ding ding ding ding.
Leaving aside subjective opinions on good game design, it's very hard to actually have several elements of canonically "good" game design in Westworld. Players can't die, and with the amount of money guests are paying, they can't ever feel disappointed in the slightest. This takes away a HUGE amount of your toolkit. Imagine playing Mario with constant super star powers, and a Latiku that lifts you out of every pit you fall in. I know a guy who used to play an MLB game where he would set it on super easy, pick the All Star team that had every hall of famer ever on the roster, and square off against the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. His final score was something like 60 to 2 on a regular basis. He had a hard job, and he didn't want any more challenge when he got home - he just wanted to watch his baseball men clobber the brains out of the other guys. I think that this is, somewhat, the point. I think it also accounts for the malaise that Bernard and Ford seem to be experiencing, and the depiction of the cocky scenario writer character who makes these eyerollingly cliched and bad grand storylines out of nothing but tired power fantasies while pretending that they're high art (are there high art sims somewhere, by the way? a David Lynch World, or something?).
In that light West World is more like an amusement park as we understand it in the modern sense. We get on roller coasters for a reliable, safe, and measured thrill. We can go on the one with three inverted loops, but we're in no more danger than if we were on the teacup ride. It's really just what sort of vertigo the guest can stomach.
The downside to that is that I feel like this is another Walking Dead scenario, where you're making a point about humanity that is sort of one sided and pessimistic. The show's thesis is that given ultimate freedom and a dehumanized other, most people would rape, murder, and steal with impunity. Basically a Hot Topic t-shirt that says "humans = shit". I'm sort of getting tired of shows that are so grindingly anti-human. West World is at least an interesting take on that story, though.
I must have the dirtiest mouth on the planet because the swearing on the show has not even registered with me.
Same here. It struck me as typical "prestige TV" levels of language, but nothing notably extreme.
posted by codacorolla at 6:55 PM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
Given the last episode, I'm curious how this would play out. Bots need special permissions to even use a wood axe in WW, much less to engage in melee bladed combat. How would a pre-modern sim without gunpowder weapons even work?
RE: The article, in its last section: So it's entirely possible — even plausible — that Westworld is an intentionally dull, ill-designed place that self-selects for rich sociopaths with low standards.
Uhhh, yeah, ding ding ding ding.
Leaving aside subjective opinions on good game design, it's very hard to actually have several elements of canonically "good" game design in Westworld. Players can't die, and with the amount of money guests are paying, they can't ever feel disappointed in the slightest. This takes away a HUGE amount of your toolkit. Imagine playing Mario with constant super star powers, and a Latiku that lifts you out of every pit you fall in. I know a guy who used to play an MLB game where he would set it on super easy, pick the All Star team that had every hall of famer ever on the roster, and square off against the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. His final score was something like 60 to 2 on a regular basis. He had a hard job, and he didn't want any more challenge when he got home - he just wanted to watch his baseball men clobber the brains out of the other guys. I think that this is, somewhat, the point. I think it also accounts for the malaise that Bernard and Ford seem to be experiencing, and the depiction of the cocky scenario writer character who makes these eyerollingly cliched and bad grand storylines out of nothing but tired power fantasies while pretending that they're high art (are there high art sims somewhere, by the way? a David Lynch World, or something?).
In that light West World is more like an amusement park as we understand it in the modern sense. We get on roller coasters for a reliable, safe, and measured thrill. We can go on the one with three inverted loops, but we're in no more danger than if we were on the teacup ride. It's really just what sort of vertigo the guest can stomach.
The downside to that is that I feel like this is another Walking Dead scenario, where you're making a point about humanity that is sort of one sided and pessimistic. The show's thesis is that given ultimate freedom and a dehumanized other, most people would rape, murder, and steal with impunity. Basically a Hot Topic t-shirt that says "humans = shit". I'm sort of getting tired of shows that are so grindingly anti-human. West World is at least an interesting take on that story, though.
I must have the dirtiest mouth on the planet because the swearing on the show has not even registered with me.
Same here. It struck me as typical "prestige TV" levels of language, but nothing notably extreme.
posted by codacorolla at 6:55 PM on October 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
I bet McPoyle would be interested to hang out with that gang with the milk fetish.
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:25 PM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:25 PM on October 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Ed Brubaker is involved, so that's some reassurance that they might know what they are doing and not just be winging it. Waiting to see if the bizarre logistics of the park are actually a plot point rather than something we are supposed to handwave and ignore, and if they are then if it will be an interesting plot point or some dumb Lost shit.
I know this has already been responded to upthread, but I just want to nth that I'm very confident that this won't be an issue given Jonathan Nolan's involvement. Seriously, Person of Interest was like the anti-Lost, in that the series very gradually expanded the scope of the various plots and "mysteries" and mythology and all that, and did a phenomenal job of tying everything together. It had some faults, but this was absolutely not one of them.
And I say this as someone who also watched every single episode of Lost. Actually, i started PoI because of my love for Michael Emerson, even though I was nervous about JJ Abram's involvement. But Nolan, et al. did such a great job with PoI that his involvement in Westworld is the primary reason I decided to watch this series, and I'm glad I did, because I already love it.
Further proof of Nolan's genius is that he managed to get a broadcast network (CBS) to air 5 seasons of a show that was at its heart very much a genre (specifically sci fi) show by selling it as a crime of the week thing. But it was so much more than that.
I get that it might not be to everyone's liking, but Nolan has proven his ability to do a thoughtful, original show dealing with AI, including the ethics and logistics of artificial intelligence. So I have a lot of faith in his ability to work similar magic with Westworld.
tl;dr: Watch Westworld if you haven't seen it yet, come join us over on fanfare, and then check out PoI if you want to more of Nolan's fabulous work in the scifi genre.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:14 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know this has already been responded to upthread, but I just want to nth that I'm very confident that this won't be an issue given Jonathan Nolan's involvement. Seriously, Person of Interest was like the anti-Lost, in that the series very gradually expanded the scope of the various plots and "mysteries" and mythology and all that, and did a phenomenal job of tying everything together. It had some faults, but this was absolutely not one of them.
And I say this as someone who also watched every single episode of Lost. Actually, i started PoI because of my love for Michael Emerson, even though I was nervous about JJ Abram's involvement. But Nolan, et al. did such a great job with PoI that his involvement in Westworld is the primary reason I decided to watch this series, and I'm glad I did, because I already love it.
Further proof of Nolan's genius is that he managed to get a broadcast network (CBS) to air 5 seasons of a show that was at its heart very much a genre (specifically sci fi) show by selling it as a crime of the week thing. But it was so much more than that.
I get that it might not be to everyone's liking, but Nolan has proven his ability to do a thoughtful, original show dealing with AI, including the ethics and logistics of artificial intelligence. So I have a lot of faith in his ability to work similar magic with Westworld.
tl;dr: Watch Westworld if you haven't seen it yet, come join us over on fanfare, and then check out PoI if you want to more of Nolan's fabulous work in the scifi genre.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:14 PM on October 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
she is INSISTENT that Ed is Yul
How does that make sense? (I haven't seen 0103 yet ...). He can't be shot. And the glasses guy says he's a special guest who gets whatever he wants ...
posted by mrgrimm at 9:53 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
How does that make sense? (I haven't seen 0103 yet ...). He can't be shot. And the glasses guy says he's a special guest who gets whatever he wants ...
posted by mrgrimm at 9:53 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
He is the catalyst for change. He is the Man in Black. He is a "special guest", which means he has abilities and access beyond the hosts and the guests. Taking him at face value as a guest is surely what the script intends.
honestly, I have learned it's in my best interests to listen to my wife.
posted by mwhybark at 10:23 PM on October 18, 2016
honestly, I have learned it's in my best interests to listen to my wife.
posted by mwhybark at 10:23 PM on October 18, 2016
I think that with the level of deceit, sabotage, and general bad business ethics we've seen from every member of Delos, it's not hard to imagine that the MIB might be a bot that's had special privileges faked into the system. The writing for his plot-line has been great so far - very effectively parceling out leads that might go in any number of directions.
posted by codacorolla at 10:31 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 10:31 PM on October 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Question; how does the mechanic work, where hosts can't shoot guests, but guests can shoot hosts?
Do the guns not fire real bullets? Probably not, right? Otherwise, guests could shoot each other, and that would be bad.
So the guns fire blanks, but the host bodies react to them. Real damage is inflicted. They bleed. There are actual physical holes in their bodies. So does that mean the hosts' bodies are all peppered with squibs that detect when they've been shot, and then explode? And therefore, the guests, lacking squibs, can't be shot at all?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:16 PM on October 18, 2016
Do the guns not fire real bullets? Probably not, right? Otherwise, guests could shoot each other, and that would be bad.
So the guns fire blanks, but the host bodies react to them. Real damage is inflicted. They bleed. There are actual physical holes in their bodies. So does that mean the hosts' bodies are all peppered with squibs that detect when they've been shot, and then explode? And therefore, the guests, lacking squibs, can't be shot at all?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:16 PM on October 18, 2016
b) "Westworld", and presumable postcursors such as "Futureworld" or "Romeworld" or "Wevvsworld" are not physical spaces maintained anywhere but the datasphere.
Don't we see the construction of the physical bodies of the hosts? Like, with tendons, circuitry etc...? And storage of the malfunctioning hosts, by armed men? If they were just software this wouldn't be necessary.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:18 PM on October 18, 2016
Don't we see the construction of the physical bodies of the hosts? Like, with tendons, circuitry etc...? And storage of the malfunctioning hosts, by armed men? If they were just software this wouldn't be necessary.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 11:18 PM on October 18, 2016
In that light West World is more like an amusement park as we understand it in the modern sense.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dream Park yet, since it sounds like the main inspiration.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:45 AM on October 19, 2016
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dream Park yet, since it sounds like the main inspiration.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 12:45 AM on October 19, 2016
Do the guns not fire real bullets? Probably not, right? Otherwise, guests could shoot each other, and that would be bad.
...
Don't we see the construction of the physical bodies of the hosts? Like, with tendons, circuitry etc...? And storage of the malfunctioning hosts, by armed men? If they were just software this wouldn't be necessary.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts 2 ½ hours ago [+] [!]
Well indeed, not necessary. But in the simulation hypothesis, the rabbit hole is infinite, innit? Is the credit sequence to be taken literally, galloping skeletal horse and all? We certainly see a great deal of in-world metaphorical references to programming and code.
I think you are answering you own questions here. I realize this isn't a JJ-verse per se, but a certain amount of absurd plot-expansion seems like the sort of thing one might expect. So presumably the park staff is jacked in and simming too. Somehow this requires holocall centers or whatever when they need to talk to Firefly ex-crew instead of skyping or FB face messenging on their Note 7s or whatever.
Mind, this viewpoint is certainly not intended as a primary reading by the show at this point (or maybe ever). But having it in mind, paredolia is my true companion.
posted by mwhybark at 2:15 AM on October 19, 2016
...
Don't we see the construction of the physical bodies of the hosts? Like, with tendons, circuitry etc...? And storage of the malfunctioning hosts, by armed men? If they were just software this wouldn't be necessary.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts 2 ½ hours ago [+] [!]
Well indeed, not necessary. But in the simulation hypothesis, the rabbit hole is infinite, innit? Is the credit sequence to be taken literally, galloping skeletal horse and all? We certainly see a great deal of in-world metaphorical references to programming and code.
I think you are answering you own questions here. I realize this isn't a JJ-verse per se, but a certain amount of absurd plot-expansion seems like the sort of thing one might expect. So presumably the park staff is jacked in and simming too. Somehow this requires holocall centers or whatever when they need to talk to Firefly ex-crew instead of skyping or FB face messenging on their Note 7s or whatever.
Mind, this viewpoint is certainly not intended as a primary reading by the show at this point (or maybe ever). But having it in mind, paredolia is my true companion.
posted by mwhybark at 2:15 AM on October 19, 2016
Also, hell, McCoy touching the sky, McCoy getting killed and resurrected! Shore Leave is the OG Westworld! Except now I think it's actually some sort of superholodeck. Possibly Quark's holosuites have emergently networked themselves and we should expect a cameo from Alexander Siddiq and or Colm Meany in addition to the McPoyles.
posted by mwhybark at 2:19 AM on October 19, 2016
posted by mwhybark at 2:19 AM on October 19, 2016
Question; how does the mechanic work, where hosts can't shoot guests, but guests can shoot hosts?
Do the guns not fire real bullets? Probably not, right? Otherwise, guests could shoot each other, and that would be bad.
So the guns fire blanks, but the host bodies react to them
This is covered in the ARG, apparently (I have not seen it but some terrible buzzfeed-style site covered it): each bullet contains a tiny self-destruct charge and a skin sensor.
This is why, in the most recent episode, it actually hurt William to get shot (the bullet detonates just late enough that it stings, probably pretty close to paintball, actually), but the hosts always take damage. If I were to speculate beyond the given material it would make sense to detonate what was left of the bullet just as the host's exit-wound is being made, so that you don't accidentally shoot a guest standing behind a host.
FWIW (gun-nerdery) no bullet under 20mm in caliber can carry a tactically useful amount of explosives, but if the projectile were low-velocity (on the order of .45ACP's naturally sub-sonic rounds), composed primarily of something like the G11's caseless ammunition(scroll down), and the front edge was a thin metallic plate to direct the force of the charge backwards via the Misznay-Schardin effect, you *might* be able to pull off something functionally similar. I feel like the sensor package would still penetrate the skin absent technology on the order of Iain Banks' Culture series, though.
Also looking it up now some of the cowboy revolver pistols really did get up to just shy of 20mm caliber. Jesus Christ.
posted by Ryvar at 6:10 AM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Do the guns not fire real bullets? Probably not, right? Otherwise, guests could shoot each other, and that would be bad.
So the guns fire blanks, but the host bodies react to them
This is covered in the ARG, apparently (I have not seen it but some terrible buzzfeed-style site covered it): each bullet contains a tiny self-destruct charge and a skin sensor.
This is why, in the most recent episode, it actually hurt William to get shot (the bullet detonates just late enough that it stings, probably pretty close to paintball, actually), but the hosts always take damage. If I were to speculate beyond the given material it would make sense to detonate what was left of the bullet just as the host's exit-wound is being made, so that you don't accidentally shoot a guest standing behind a host.
FWIW (gun-nerdery) no bullet under 20mm in caliber can carry a tactically useful amount of explosives, but if the projectile were low-velocity (on the order of .45ACP's naturally sub-sonic rounds), composed primarily of something like the G11's caseless ammunition(scroll down), and the front edge was a thin metallic plate to direct the force of the charge backwards via the Misznay-Schardin effect, you *might* be able to pull off something functionally similar. I feel like the sensor package would still penetrate the skin absent technology on the order of Iain Banks' Culture series, though.
Also looking it up now some of the cowboy revolver pistols really did get up to just shy of 20mm caliber. Jesus Christ.
posted by Ryvar at 6:10 AM on October 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm wondering how shotguns* work in that case, but may be overthinking it.
* Or the central chamber on Ed's LeMat, but that seems to be some kind of wall-piercing slug?
posted by Artw at 6:15 AM on October 19, 2016
* Or the central chamber on Ed's LeMat, but that seems to be some kind of wall-piercing slug?
posted by Artw at 6:15 AM on October 19, 2016
Also, if magic bullet tech is perfected, how hard should it be to make a magically nerfing ax or bowie knife. (But maybe you still couldn't really program every rock an treebranch to magically nerf itself.)
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:20 AM on October 19, 2016
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:20 AM on October 19, 2016
If the shotguns are actually firing a solid slug that just makes the problem easier, if they're attempting to simulate actual buckshot then you're back to waving a magic wand called "really advanced nanoscopic materials science!" since double-aught's pellets are just over 8mm in diameter.
The wall-piercing thing would appear to be impossible with any kind of science we'll see in the next century.
They make a point in the third episode that weapons privileges for edged weapons like axes are a heavily restricted thing, which is why the cookout scene in particular gets caught in a loop - the one that goes mad is the only one that can chop wood.
posted by Ryvar at 6:24 AM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
The wall-piercing thing would appear to be impossible with any kind of science we'll see in the next century.
They make a point in the third episode that weapons privileges for edged weapons like axes are a heavily restricted thing, which is why the cookout scene in particular gets caught in a loop - the one that goes mad is the only one that can chop wood.
posted by Ryvar at 6:24 AM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Videogame stories are pretty easy to disconnect from the actual mechanics of gameplay, however. In fact I'd consider them superior to traditional storytelling because you get the story, and you also get to be involved however you see fit, without one thing affecting the other.
I don't disagree, but I think there's a point where the disconnect between scripted story and actions permitted by the gameplay is too jarring to ignore. I'm not saying it should be Way of the Samurai (that kinda feels like Fareastworld - the players are thrown in a world with several narratives, and it's up to them to choose which ones to follow, or just act like an asshole and kill everyone until the magistrates do them in), but it should be written in a way the player can't contradict the story seconds after a cutscene.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:00 AM on October 19, 2016
I don't disagree, but I think there's a point where the disconnect between scripted story and actions permitted by the gameplay is too jarring to ignore. I'm not saying it should be Way of the Samurai (that kinda feels like Fareastworld - the players are thrown in a world with several narratives, and it's up to them to choose which ones to follow, or just act like an asshole and kill everyone until the magistrates do them in), but it should be written in a way the player can't contradict the story seconds after a cutscene.
posted by lmfsilva at 7:00 AM on October 19, 2016
I'm loving the show as well, and while I am intrigued and fascinated by the logistics and gameplay elements of the park, I am perfectly happy to have them largely handwaved or ignored. I'd much rather hear about how the theory of the bicameral mind has infuenced the hosts' programming or the relationship between Ford and Arnold than I would hear about how they transport the "dead" hosts back to the repair area and how much a daily pass costs.
I think some of that comes from being narratively engaged in videogames my whole life. I understand that sometimes the NPC who gives you the fetch quest is going to get hung up in a bad pathfinding loop and get stuck in a ravine and you have to just suspend disbelief a little harder while you shoot him to make him chase you and then fast travel away and back so he loses aggression and will actually talk to you. I assume things like that happen in Westworld too, to some extent. I think that is supported by the scene where the one host got all glitchy - the guests acted more inconvenienced and disappointed than freaked out, as if it was something they had come to expect.
In short, I am Someone Who Was Fine With How Lost Ended, AMA.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:39 AM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think some of that comes from being narratively engaged in videogames my whole life. I understand that sometimes the NPC who gives you the fetch quest is going to get hung up in a bad pathfinding loop and get stuck in a ravine and you have to just suspend disbelief a little harder while you shoot him to make him chase you and then fast travel away and back so he loses aggression and will actually talk to you. I assume things like that happen in Westworld too, to some extent. I think that is supported by the scene where the one host got all glitchy - the guests acted more inconvenienced and disappointed than freaked out, as if it was something they had come to expect.
In short, I am Someone Who Was Fine With How Lost Ended, AMA.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:39 AM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think some of that comes from being narratively engaged in videogames my whole life. I understand that sometimes the NPC who gives you the fetch quest is going to get hung up in a bad pathfinding loop and get stuck in a ravine and you have to just suspend disbelief a little harder while you shoot him to make him chase you and then fast travel away and back so he loses aggression and will actually talk to you. I assume things like that happen in Westworld too, to some extent.
TIMELINE: In the year 2035, Todd Howard's research into lifelike human robots finally bears fruit. He scraps all of his plans, shutters Bethesda Softworks, and converts its entire workforce into a new company: Delos.
posted by codacorolla at 9:37 AM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
TIMELINE: In the year 2035, Todd Howard's research into lifelike human robots finally bears fruit. He scraps all of his plans, shutters Bethesda Softworks, and converts its entire workforce into a new company: Delos.
posted by codacorolla at 9:37 AM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
The one bit of technical jiggery-pokery I do think the series needs to dive a little deeper into is the bullets. We have seen that when hosts get shot, they act like real bullets, but there seem to be two options when guests get shot - the solid-but-non-lethal whack that William took when defending the prostitute and the Superman-esque non-reaction from the Man In Black when Teddy tried to shoot him. Then there is the Wyatt gang, who reacted like the MIB. It may be just a matter of experienced guests being ready for the impact and knowing what to expect, but I suspect there is more there.
TIMELINE: In the year 2035, Todd Howard's research into lifelike human robots finally bears fruit. He scraps all of his plans, shutters Bethesda Softworks, and converts its entire workforce into a new company: Delos.
Waiting for the playthrough where a random dragon kills Teddy after he picks up the condensed milk but before he gives it to Dolores so she just stands in the street all day.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:50 AM on October 19, 2016
TIMELINE: In the year 2035, Todd Howard's research into lifelike human robots finally bears fruit. He scraps all of his plans, shutters Bethesda Softworks, and converts its entire workforce into a new company: Delos.
Waiting for the playthrough where a random dragon kills Teddy after he picks up the condensed milk but before he gives it to Dolores so she just stands in the street all day.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:50 AM on October 19, 2016
The guns all are AIs, too. They recognize what they're aiming at and fire a different type of bullet accordingly.
posted by RobotHero at 10:33 AM on October 19, 2016
posted by RobotHero at 10:33 AM on October 19, 2016
saw the original movie and haven't seen the show but I'm curious as to whether the theory of our world being a highly advanced simulation is where this show is headed. if not, that musk discussed probability would make for an interesting series...
posted by judson at 11:05 AM on October 19, 2016
posted by judson at 11:05 AM on October 19, 2016
In the Fanfare pilot thread, codacollora found a good article where the creators answered some questions:
“It’s not the guns,” Nolan said. “It’s the bullets. We thought a lot about this. In the original film, the guns won’t operate guest on guest, but we felt like the guests would want to have a more visceral experience here. So when they’re shot it has sort of the impact. They’re called simunitions. The U.S. military trains with rounds like the ones we’re talking about. But there’s a bit of an impact, a bit of a sting. So it’s not entirely consequence-free for the guests.”posted by gladly at 11:10 AM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
The guns all are AIs, too. They recognize what they're aiming at and fire a different type of bullet accordingly.
Nonsense. What if you aim right between a guest and host?
“It’s not the guns,” Nolan said. “It’s the bullets."
Good to know. I mean there has to be a way for the hosts to start shooting guests, right?
The guns thing is a sticky wicket. You can program hosts not to fire (like Dolores) but what about the hosts who shoot? A tussle ensues, and a host gets a guest's gun, etc. ...
posted by mrgrimm at 11:24 AM on October 19, 2016
Nonsense. What if you aim right between a guest and host?
“It’s not the guns,” Nolan said. “It’s the bullets."
Good to know. I mean there has to be a way for the hosts to start shooting guests, right?
The guns thing is a sticky wicket. You can program hosts not to fire (like Dolores) but what about the hosts who shoot? A tussle ensues, and a host gets a guest's gun, etc. ...
posted by mrgrimm at 11:24 AM on October 19, 2016
Love the show - also love Hopkins' very polite and mature way of saying how he phones in his role: “I have a delete button in my brain,” Hopkins said. “I don’t remember the past very well. We started [Westworld] two years ago, and I was just watching it now." He's not overthinkin' it.
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:43 AM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Coda Tronca at 11:43 AM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good to know. I mean there has to be a way for the hosts to start shooting guests, right?
In the first episode, as they go down to cold storage, there's a lingering shot of the security team's weaponry from Bernard's POV. I feel like that's going to come back into play.
posted by codacorolla at 11:54 AM on October 19, 2016
In the first episode, as they go down to cold storage, there's a lingering shot of the security team's weaponry from Bernard's POV. I feel like that's going to come back into play.
posted by codacorolla at 11:54 AM on October 19, 2016
The guns thing is a sticky wicket. You can program hosts not to fire (like Dolores) but what about the hosts who shoot? A tussle ensues, and a host gets a guest's gun, etc. ...
Maybe everyone has the same bullets, and the difference is the hosts bodies are rigged with something like explosive blood packs except everywhere?
Because, what's preventing a guest from shooting another by accident? You get one playing on a sheriff quest, other with the renegade quest, they start shooting at each other, and because there isn't a quick way to tell between guests from hosts, you surely don't want two hosts shooting 45 caliber rounds at each other thinking it's just a game. And even if the quests are played so that no guests can be in opposite sites, what happens if two guests get in a western-style main street duel thinking the other is a host?
So, I guess it makes more sense the hosts' bodies are designed to treat the impact of a fake bullet like it would be a real round than to have real bullets for the guests in the mix. Very much like I think it's an insurance hell if any production decides to have live rounds on set after Brandon Lee.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:03 PM on October 19, 2016
Maybe everyone has the same bullets, and the difference is the hosts bodies are rigged with something like explosive blood packs except everywhere?
Because, what's preventing a guest from shooting another by accident? You get one playing on a sheriff quest, other with the renegade quest, they start shooting at each other, and because there isn't a quick way to tell between guests from hosts, you surely don't want two hosts shooting 45 caliber rounds at each other thinking it's just a game. And even if the quests are played so that no guests can be in opposite sites, what happens if two guests get in a western-style main street duel thinking the other is a host?
So, I guess it makes more sense the hosts' bodies are designed to treat the impact of a fake bullet like it would be a real round than to have real bullets for the guests in the mix. Very much like I think it's an insurance hell if any production decides to have live rounds on set after Brandon Lee.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:03 PM on October 19, 2016
bullet lodged from an improperly made dummy bullet used on a front shot of the gun (as in, supposed to be cartridge and bullet but no primer or gunpowder, but left the primer, and after shooting it was enough to get the bullet stuck in the barrel), same revolver later fired at Lee with blanks which had enough force to fire the stuck bullet at almost the same speed.
I believe after that, insurance companies forced production companies to never make these kind of mixes - no guns capable of firing actual bullets can be on set at the same time as prop guns, or something like that.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I believe after that, insurance companies forced production companies to never make these kind of mixes - no guns capable of firing actual bullets can be on set at the same time as prop guns, or something like that.
posted by lmfsilva at 12:30 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's why you need the AI gun. It will pay close attention to what kind of thing you're pointing at and how close you are, and whether everything that was loaded into it came out the same way, and adjust its behaviour accordingly. So nothing could possiblie go wrong. I mean possibly.
posted by RobotHero at 2:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotHero at 2:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
So far, I am enjoying the show. However, the thing that really bothers me is the admin can watch the hosts doing anything at anytime, pretty much. Yet, the guests seem comfortable being cruel, fucking, and killing these hosts, all while the admin watch them. There is a reason why a lot of people need God to keep them in line because the idea of a being watching them and judging them prevents them from doing bad things. Just the knowledge that several people in an operations booth could be watching me torture a host would be enough to prevent me from doing it.
posted by Foam Pants at 2:50 PM on October 19, 2016
posted by Foam Pants at 2:50 PM on October 19, 2016
Sure, the bullets are "smart" ("scifi magic" might be a better term) but I gotta wonder about knives and other physical weapons. In episode two one guest stabbed a questgiver host right through the hand for being annoying - what if he hadn't been a host, but a roleplaying guest? I imagine there must be quite a few guest-on-guest accidents, especially since there's nothing that visually distinguishes guests from hosts.
posted by ymgve at 4:47 PM on October 19, 2016
posted by ymgve at 4:47 PM on October 19, 2016
(NB: I haven't seen the third episode yet.)
This article kinda lost me with its discussion of the opening scene. It just seems like there's a failure to imagine how it would work as a game just fine, like a reduction of the idea of sandbox games to nothing but GTA free roam violence. I guess it's because I've played a ton of Hitman recently, and in that game it's very important that NPCs do what they're supposed to do even when you're not around. In Hitman it's actually very fun to discover the things NPCs do, appreciate the big puzzle box, and find ways to weave yourself into it as you go from an overwhelmed clumsy noob at first following the easy paths, to like a skilled exploiter of the whole system, sorta like Ed Harris's character but more dry sense of humor and fewer puppies kicked.
(My working theory on Ed Harris is that he's actually a robot simulation of a player used to test and deepen the game. He's a Nexus 6, but the big secret is that Anthony Hopkins has also built a Nexus 7 to be the DM, to replace himself because no human successor is worthy. Okay I know it's cheesy and leads to characters shouting things like, "I created the Devil to keep God honest!!" just before the big explosion, but if you start taking white and black hats seriously, you're already on the train to this.)
And as a practicality quibble, there's a whole bunch of reasons why Dolores and Teddy's scene couldn't be "loaded from memory", including the one that was on the screen: a guest might interfere at any time. The idea of trying to sim your sim in fast forward—then sync it up with the live version when a guest approaches, making sure the actors move to the right position to pick up the script at the right place—made the programmer part of me claw its face and stumble out of the imagined room.
Just the knowledge that several people in an operations booth could be watching me torture a host would be enough to prevent me from doing it.
I assume you also wouldn't do it if you weren't being watched! On the other hand, it seems like it would be even more horrifyingly normalizing once you violated your morals. Lets say in a moment of weakness or foolishness you did something bad to a host. Then... nothing happens, everyone is cool with you, everyone is still kissing your ass to high heaven. It's not because no one saw, it's worse: they saw and didn't care. That is pretty horrifying and sounds too much like how sickness feedback loops form in real life, people pushing each others' boundaries little by little with increasing callousness and dehumanizing of real people.
Of course, the host literally are not human (it seems), and maybe not even alive to some people. The guests don't have our perspective. They might, in honest good faith, not see them as living things. It would be nice if they could break free from the idea that someone who treats the guests like objects is also going to have a flashing arrow pointing at them saying BAD PERSON. Make it more about cycles of shock and reassurance.
I feel like we could have got a more interesting pair of characters than the Wimpy Good Guy with a Crush, and Level 69 Douchebro to explore the ethical angle, too. Instead, maybe a fairly young couple where one of them is experienced, very jaded and 100% used to thinking of the hosts as machines, likable and gung-ho about the game; the other is up for it all at first and enjoys it, but starts having misgivings because it's too real... and what if the hosts are alive, or near enough to make no difference? They have arguments about clockwork ducks quacking (at electric breadcrumbs in a Chinese room I guess).
Also it'd be nice if we had Delos employee or two who are NOT OKAY with how the park normalizes violence (even if they don't think the hosts are alive) and they are working up to doing something about it. It would be a welcome change from all the scenes of: two unlikable, selfish, boring Delos employees fail to give a shit yet again about the clear inadequacies of their processes w/r/t the nascent robot uprising.
posted by fleacircus at 4:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This article kinda lost me with its discussion of the opening scene. It just seems like there's a failure to imagine how it would work as a game just fine, like a reduction of the idea of sandbox games to nothing but GTA free roam violence. I guess it's because I've played a ton of Hitman recently, and in that game it's very important that NPCs do what they're supposed to do even when you're not around. In Hitman it's actually very fun to discover the things NPCs do, appreciate the big puzzle box, and find ways to weave yourself into it as you go from an overwhelmed clumsy noob at first following the easy paths, to like a skilled exploiter of the whole system, sorta like Ed Harris's character but more dry sense of humor and fewer puppies kicked.
(My working theory on Ed Harris is that he's actually a robot simulation of a player used to test and deepen the game. He's a Nexus 6, but the big secret is that Anthony Hopkins has also built a Nexus 7 to be the DM, to replace himself because no human successor is worthy. Okay I know it's cheesy and leads to characters shouting things like, "I created the Devil to keep God honest!!" just before the big explosion, but if you start taking white and black hats seriously, you're already on the train to this.)
And as a practicality quibble, there's a whole bunch of reasons why Dolores and Teddy's scene couldn't be "loaded from memory", including the one that was on the screen: a guest might interfere at any time. The idea of trying to sim your sim in fast forward—then sync it up with the live version when a guest approaches, making sure the actors move to the right position to pick up the script at the right place—made the programmer part of me claw its face and stumble out of the imagined room.
Just the knowledge that several people in an operations booth could be watching me torture a host would be enough to prevent me from doing it.
I assume you also wouldn't do it if you weren't being watched! On the other hand, it seems like it would be even more horrifyingly normalizing once you violated your morals. Lets say in a moment of weakness or foolishness you did something bad to a host. Then... nothing happens, everyone is cool with you, everyone is still kissing your ass to high heaven. It's not because no one saw, it's worse: they saw and didn't care. That is pretty horrifying and sounds too much like how sickness feedback loops form in real life, people pushing each others' boundaries little by little with increasing callousness and dehumanizing of real people.
Of course, the host literally are not human (it seems), and maybe not even alive to some people. The guests don't have our perspective. They might, in honest good faith, not see them as living things. It would be nice if they could break free from the idea that someone who treats the guests like objects is also going to have a flashing arrow pointing at them saying BAD PERSON. Make it more about cycles of shock and reassurance.
I feel like we could have got a more interesting pair of characters than the Wimpy Good Guy with a Crush, and Level 69 Douchebro to explore the ethical angle, too. Instead, maybe a fairly young couple where one of them is experienced, very jaded and 100% used to thinking of the hosts as machines, likable and gung-ho about the game; the other is up for it all at first and enjoys it, but starts having misgivings because it's too real... and what if the hosts are alive, or near enough to make no difference? They have arguments about clockwork ducks quacking (at electric breadcrumbs in a Chinese room I guess).
Also it'd be nice if we had Delos employee or two who are NOT OKAY with how the park normalizes violence (even if they don't think the hosts are alive) and they are working up to doing something about it. It would be a welcome change from all the scenes of: two unlikable, selfish, boring Delos employees fail to give a shit yet again about the clear inadequacies of their processes w/r/t the nascent robot uprising.
posted by fleacircus at 4:47 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also it'd be nice if we had Delos employee or two who are NOT OKAY with how the park normalizes violence (even if they don't think the hosts are alive) and they are working up to doing something about it.
I mean, how many Quakers you think work at Rockstar? If you're not down with coding a game that uses violence as its core mechanic, why would you ever work at Delos, or pretty much any AAA game company in our world?
It would be a welcome change from all the scenes of: two unlikable, selfish, boring Delos employees fail to give a shit yet again about the clear inadequacies of their processes w/r/t the nascent robot uprising.
Maybe I'm too biased in favor of Shannon Woodward, but so far the Elsie character seems to be troubled enough by the glitches that she's been investigating them on her own time, and Bernard has to warn her off. Stubbs is nervous enough around the robots that he's carrying unathorized weapons in the field, and the suit from corporate doesn't seem terribly reassured by Bernard either. Hell, even Bernard seems to have doubts about his little sessions with Dolores. Don't get me wrong, I think they're showing the corporation as fairly shady and corner-cutting, ripe for errors to cascade into crisis. But it also seems clear that a lot of the employees have some misgivings, they're just worried about being canned for speaking out.
posted by Diablevert at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016
I mean, how many Quakers you think work at Rockstar? If you're not down with coding a game that uses violence as its core mechanic, why would you ever work at Delos, or pretty much any AAA game company in our world?
It would be a welcome change from all the scenes of: two unlikable, selfish, boring Delos employees fail to give a shit yet again about the clear inadequacies of their processes w/r/t the nascent robot uprising.
Maybe I'm too biased in favor of Shannon Woodward, but so far the Elsie character seems to be troubled enough by the glitches that she's been investigating them on her own time, and Bernard has to warn her off. Stubbs is nervous enough around the robots that he's carrying unathorized weapons in the field, and the suit from corporate doesn't seem terribly reassured by Bernard either. Hell, even Bernard seems to have doubts about his little sessions with Dolores. Don't get me wrong, I think they're showing the corporation as fairly shady and corner-cutting, ripe for errors to cascade into crisis. But it also seems clear that a lot of the employees have some misgivings, they're just worried about being canned for speaking out.
posted by Diablevert at 6:12 PM on October 19, 2016
I'm enjoying the tech-speak of the Westworld staff. Hosts, deployments, rollbacks; the exasperation of having put a bug into production... totally spot-on. I love it when sci-fi writers get this stuff right. What other show has had debugging tools as a major plot point? Maybe in the next episode somebody will go on a rant about high-density seating.
And I'm also loving the Groundhog Day aspect, with dawning glimpses of self-awareness amid the endlessly repeating scripted scenarios. Come to think of it, maybe Groundhog Day itself took place in one of these robot theme parks (Punxsutawney World?), and Phil Connors was the robot that breaks its programming and develops sentience.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
And I'm also loving the Groundhog Day aspect, with dawning glimpses of self-awareness amid the endlessly repeating scripted scenarios. Come to think of it, maybe Groundhog Day itself took place in one of these robot theme parks (Punxsutawney World?), and Phil Connors was the robot that breaks its programming and develops sentience.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:48 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
but I gotta wonder about knives and other physical weapons
This seems to be becoming a thing, the bladed weapons held by the cult , bounty hunter tripping on razor wire , the host coded for axe use getting stuck cause he heard the call - I predict a lot of mass stabbings in the future.
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 PM on October 19, 2016
This seems to be becoming a thing, the bladed weapons held by the cult , bounty hunter tripping on razor wire , the host coded for axe use getting stuck cause he heard the call - I predict a lot of mass stabbings in the future.
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 PM on October 19, 2016
Yet, the guests seem comfortable being cruel, fucking, and killing these hosts, all while the admin watch them. There is a reason why a lot of people need God to keep them in line because the idea of a being watching them and judging them prevents them from doing bad things. Just the knowledge that several people in an operations booth could be watching me torture a host would be enough to prevent me from doing it.
As someone who performed what amounts to the admin role for one of the early precursors to MMORPGs (though I think they're still around) I can assure you that the possibility of being watched/overheard never stopped anyone from getting into all kinds of really freaky shit.
posted by Justinian at 12:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
As someone who performed what amounts to the admin role for one of the early precursors to MMORPGs (though I think they're still around) I can assure you that the possibility of being watched/overheard never stopped anyone from getting into all kinds of really freaky shit.
posted by Justinian at 12:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm with the folks who are sold on the acting with the caveat that I found whassername the security chief woman kind of stiff in the first episode. By the third episode that is no longer the case. Don't know what folks who aren't impressed by Wood or Hopkins or Newton or (etc) are watching.
I have high hopes for the series and so far it has met them. HBO hopes Westworld is the next Game of Thrones; I don't know if it will ever get that size of an audience simply because I think GoT is lightning in a bottle but if anything can do it its this show.
As to Person of Interest... I really fucking hate procedurals so I stopped watching it after maybe 4 episodes. Now y'all are tempting me to watch it again. But I really, really, hate procedurals.
posted by Justinian at 12:19 AM on October 20, 2016
I have high hopes for the series and so far it has met them. HBO hopes Westworld is the next Game of Thrones; I don't know if it will ever get that size of an audience simply because I think GoT is lightning in a bottle but if anything can do it its this show.
As to Person of Interest... I really fucking hate procedurals so I stopped watching it after maybe 4 episodes. Now y'all are tempting me to watch it again. But I really, really, hate procedurals.
posted by Justinian at 12:19 AM on October 20, 2016
I'm apparently one of the few people who likes the security chief. Her scene in the first episode with the head writer where she verbally backhands him as he attempts to make a powerplay with her made me love her immediately.
Also, Bernard is a host.
posted by papercake at 7:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, Bernard is a host.
posted by papercake at 7:27 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bernard being a host seems like it would take some of the air out of the plot line that they're working with Dolores, where it's about her slowly gaining agency and self awareness. A host that already has self-awareness (after all, Bernard isn't stuck in a loop and he is seemingly making his own decisions) would rob Dolores' storyline of some of its momentum. Then again, I could also see those two things complimenting each other, with Bernard and Dolores perhaps joining forces together when they realize their true natures. Bernard's sessions with Dolores would also mirror Dolores' sessions with Teddy: a more aware bot trying to prod a less aware bot into true selfhood.
As point in favor of Bernard being a bot, he is the character that we've seen the most host-like backstory from: i.e. his dead son motivating plot. It would be interesting if Bernard was Ford's creation, and maybe the MIB was Arnold's creation. That sort of manichean duality would make sense thematically.
posted by codacorolla at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
As point in favor of Bernard being a bot, he is the character that we've seen the most host-like backstory from: i.e. his dead son motivating plot. It would be interesting if Bernard was Ford's creation, and maybe the MIB was Arnold's creation. That sort of manichean duality would make sense thematically.
posted by codacorolla at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
As to Person of Interest... I really fucking hate procedurals so I stopped watching it after maybe 4 episodes. Now y'all are tempting me to watch it again. But I really, really, hate procedurals.
This is the exact situation I find myself in w/r/t Person of Interest.
In short, I am Someone Who Was Fine With How Lost Ended, AMA.
I was right with you up until this sentence. But since I don't want to relitigate the Lost ending I'm just gonna look at you oddly instead of arguing.
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:53 AM on October 20, 2016
This is the exact situation I find myself in w/r/t Person of Interest.
In short, I am Someone Who Was Fine With How Lost Ended, AMA.
I was right with you up until this sentence. But since I don't want to relitigate the Lost ending I'm just gonna look at you oddly instead of arguing.
posted by Gaz Errant at 9:53 AM on October 20, 2016
The Next Picture Show's most recent two podcasts have been on the original Westworld and the new one. If you were a fan of The Dissolve and you aren't listening to TNPS, you probably should be.
posted by octothorpe at 2:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 2:24 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
SOLD.
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
My comments about gun AI were goofs, but it has kicked me off thinking about how often visual science fiction marries advanced AI with human appearance, even though from a practical standpoint, those are two different areas of research. Obviously, there are questions of audience-identification that favour humanoid AIs, so it's much less likely they're going to have a show about the robot guns gaining sentience.
Of course, the original Westworld, given the theme park setting, was presumably inspired by animatronics. Which are about imitating the appearance of humans, not about their intelligence. (As an aside, in the Stepford Wives, one of the husbands was a former Disney World animatronics developer.)
posted by RobotHero at 7:35 AM on October 21, 2016
Of course, the original Westworld, given the theme park setting, was presumably inspired by animatronics. Which are about imitating the appearance of humans, not about their intelligence. (As an aside, in the Stepford Wives, one of the husbands was a former Disney World animatronics developer.)
posted by RobotHero at 7:35 AM on October 21, 2016
I mean, how many Quakers you think work at Rockstar. If you're not down with coding a game that uses violence as its core mechanic, why would you ever work at Delos, or pretty much any AAA game company in our world?
I don't think it's the case that everyone from top to bottom in a company and all their subcontractors is A-OK with core ideas when they join and their opinions never change. There aren't a lot of Snowdens in the world but there's more than zero.
Anyway, it seems like Westworld is more groundbreaking and unique, not really like R* churning out another AAA game. They might have a lot of visionaries on board, and it may not have been clear how things would turn out when they were hiring, etc.
But it also seems clear that a lot of the employees have some misgivings, they're just worried about being canned for speaking out.
I'm impressed that you remember their names.
Having seen the third episode now, I kinda like where they're going with Bernard. 'ES GOT A DEAD KID as the expansion of his interest in Dolores is eh by itself, but I like it in light of the reveal that host's personalities are wrapped around the lil nugget of core identity; here is Bernard's nugget of core identity. Bernard's skype call with Zoë seemed very much like a Black Mirror episode from her POV, and and Hopkins did seem able to manipulate Bernard's too readily. It's "makes u think" stuff I guess, but at least it's a reason to pay attention when Bernard is on screen.
But also, for example, every bit of $programmer_gal and $security_asshole 's dialogue was like Dilbert minus jokes. Then to top it all off, the security asshole who just told us how he super doesn't trust the programmers to protect him and is suspicious of the robutts gets down in a crevice with a malfunctioning one and turns his back on it for like an hour. Maybe he shoulda brought some zip ties.
It's not just those two, it's also the corporate lady and the shitty creative guy. I just get bored when they're on screen. I can't even judge the actors because their characters are written so dull. For the first couple episodes I felt like I was trying to watch Babylon 5 again in terms of bouncing off a wall of blandness, when it came to the Delos side of things at least.
posted by fleacircus at 5:29 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's the case that everyone from top to bottom in a company and all their subcontractors is A-OK with core ideas when they join and their opinions never change. There aren't a lot of Snowdens in the world but there's more than zero.
Anyway, it seems like Westworld is more groundbreaking and unique, not really like R* churning out another AAA game. They might have a lot of visionaries on board, and it may not have been clear how things would turn out when they were hiring, etc.
But it also seems clear that a lot of the employees have some misgivings, they're just worried about being canned for speaking out.
I'm impressed that you remember their names.
Having seen the third episode now, I kinda like where they're going with Bernard. 'ES GOT A DEAD KID as the expansion of his interest in Dolores is eh by itself, but I like it in light of the reveal that host's personalities are wrapped around the lil nugget of core identity; here is Bernard's nugget of core identity. Bernard's skype call with Zoë seemed very much like a Black Mirror episode from her POV, and and Hopkins did seem able to manipulate Bernard's too readily. It's "makes u think" stuff I guess, but at least it's a reason to pay attention when Bernard is on screen.
But also, for example, every bit of $programmer_gal and $security_asshole 's dialogue was like Dilbert minus jokes. Then to top it all off, the security asshole who just told us how he super doesn't trust the programmers to protect him and is suspicious of the robutts gets down in a crevice with a malfunctioning one and turns his back on it for like an hour. Maybe he shoulda brought some zip ties.
It's not just those two, it's also the corporate lady and the shitty creative guy. I just get bored when they're on screen. I can't even judge the actors because their characters are written so dull. For the first couple episodes I felt like I was trying to watch Babylon 5 again in terms of bouncing off a wall of blandness, when it came to the Delos side of things at least.
posted by fleacircus at 5:29 PM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
This Westworld and Captain America Writer Just Wrote Your New Favorite Graphic Novel
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on October 25, 2016
posted by Artw at 2:41 PM on October 25, 2016
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