Not A Parking Spot
January 24, 2017 8:13 AM Subscribe
A South Philly photographer has setup instagram and twitter accounts documenting illegal parking in the city. Philadelphians are handling this in their usually polite manner. (via Atrios)
I have relatives in San Francisco who budget a significant sum each month for parking tickets, and treat it as a cost of living and traveling by car in their city. I'm not saying that's a solution, but rather recognizes that their time is worth more than finding appropriate parking. (FWIW, they're very well-to-do, so they're not the norm.)
In other words, isn't this a general big city issue? (But anyone parking in a bike lane is still a dick.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:18 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
In other words, isn't this a general big city issue? (But anyone parking in a bike lane is still a dick.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:18 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
(Meanwhile, in rural areas, parking lots can be casually expanded by driving beyond the paved area, if there's even a paved parking lot to start.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:19 AM on January 24, 2017
posted by filthy light thief at 8:19 AM on January 24, 2017
(FWIW, they're very well-to-do, so they're not the norm.)
They're not being fined enough. Link fines to income.
posted by pracowity at 8:24 AM on January 24, 2017 [33 favorites]
They're not being fined enough. Link fines to income.
posted by pracowity at 8:24 AM on January 24, 2017 [33 favorites]
That's the Souf Fillufya I know and love.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 8:32 AM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 8:32 AM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
The photographer describes herself as a pedestrian, which immediately, in the eyes of people who park illegally, makes her opinion irrelevant.
The comments didn't seem to be unique to Philly. The same people could live in my town, where there are continual complaints (many of them gendered; our mayor is a woman) about eliminating on-street parking. Even though there is free parking, with enhanced security, in the city's parking garages. Most people don't even know where the garages are.
I live with my family in a neighborhood on the edge of the downtown core, and I walk a lot. It's more convenient than driving. And I have had a lot of close calls with motorists. Killing pedestrians is literally an acceptable risk of moving goods and services.
Advocating for pedestrian rights feels a bit silly, like Ned Flanders and his "Leftorium". But motorists are vocal. So are the bike folks. Pedestrians? What? You walk everywhere? The roads are for cars, dumbass.
posted by My Dad at 8:36 AM on January 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
The comments didn't seem to be unique to Philly. The same people could live in my town, where there are continual complaints (many of them gendered; our mayor is a woman) about eliminating on-street parking. Even though there is free parking, with enhanced security, in the city's parking garages. Most people don't even know where the garages are.
I live with my family in a neighborhood on the edge of the downtown core, and I walk a lot. It's more convenient than driving. And I have had a lot of close calls with motorists. Killing pedestrians is literally an acceptable risk of moving goods and services.
Advocating for pedestrian rights feels a bit silly, like Ned Flanders and his "Leftorium". But motorists are vocal. So are the bike folks. Pedestrians? What? You walk everywhere? The roads are for cars, dumbass.
posted by My Dad at 8:36 AM on January 24, 2017 [7 favorites]
I don't see any pictures of the 200 cars parked on the Broad Street median, even though it's always been illegal. If the city tried to enforce that, I think South Philly would wind up in flames.
posted by gladly at 8:41 AM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by gladly at 8:41 AM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Hell hath no fury like a South Philadelphian who was just told they can’t park illegally.
Oh, sweetie. Spoken like someone who's never taken someone's parking space in South Boston after 1/2 inch of snow falls.
posted by Mayor West at 8:46 AM on January 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
Oh, sweetie. Spoken like someone who's never taken someone's parking space in South Boston after 1/2 inch of snow falls.
posted by Mayor West at 8:46 AM on January 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
I haven't lived in Philly for a long time, but when i did it I couldn't help notice what a horizontal place it is w/r/t parking. There were not, and for all i know still are not, high rise or underground parking garages, just flat lots in inconvenient places.
For natives of the city, parking unconventionally (and from the instagram photos i saw, some of which were delivery vehicles using the spaces for short term) is simply a practical work-around for a density problem the city won't face.
My own view is that the advent of self-driving cars will help mitigate this (as well as many other) problem(s).
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
For natives of the city, parking unconventionally (and from the instagram photos i saw, some of which were delivery vehicles using the spaces for short term) is simply a practical work-around for a density problem the city won't face.
My own view is that the advent of self-driving cars will help mitigate this (as well as many other) problem(s).
posted by OHenryPacey at 8:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Boston: once you dig out that space at the first good snow, put your parking spot chair in it, and it's yours all winter.
posted by zippy at 8:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by zippy at 8:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
I've long called the blinking hazard lights on double parked cars "the Philly parking permit."
posted by carter at 8:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by carter at 8:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
I've noticed that there's a lot less of that going on in Boston this year. They must have cracked down on the practice!
posted by explosion at 9:00 AM on January 24, 2017
posted by explosion at 9:00 AM on January 24, 2017
I've noticed that there's a lot less of that going on in Boston this year. They must have cracked down on the practice!
It helps that this winter isn't so apocalyptic that it's spawning its own subgenre of fan-fiction.
posted by Mayor West at 9:06 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
It helps that this winter isn't so apocalyptic that it's spawning its own subgenre of fan-fiction.
posted by Mayor West at 9:06 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Though parking in crosswalks is not common here (I'm pretty sure you'd be towed by the time you picked up your take-out), I still wish we had this in Toronto. Also an account with video of people going through red and yellow lights (maybe a whole separate account of streetcars and buses doing this).
I did see parking in crosswalks when I lived in Boston. Occasionally I'd yell at drivers who thought it was ok because they were just going to pick up their take-out. What they didn't realize was that they take 2 minutes to do this, and 3 minutes later someone else comes along and takes 2 minutes to pick up their take-out etc. etc. and that crosswalk was always blocked.
Anyway, while I lived there, a 9 year old girl died in a house fire because the fire truck couldn't turn onto her street because of cars parked too close to the intersection. I can't seem to find the articles about it now. Anyway, a few days later, her grandfather was interviewed in the paper and said there shouldn't be a crackdown on illegal parking. Apprently even he has drunk the "drivers cannot be inconvenienced" kool-aid.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:09 AM on January 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
I did see parking in crosswalks when I lived in Boston. Occasionally I'd yell at drivers who thought it was ok because they were just going to pick up their take-out. What they didn't realize was that they take 2 minutes to do this, and 3 minutes later someone else comes along and takes 2 minutes to pick up their take-out etc. etc. and that crosswalk was always blocked.
Anyway, while I lived there, a 9 year old girl died in a house fire because the fire truck couldn't turn onto her street because of cars parked too close to the intersection. I can't seem to find the articles about it now. Anyway, a few days later, her grandfather was interviewed in the paper and said there shouldn't be a crackdown on illegal parking. Apprently even he has drunk the "drivers cannot be inconvenienced" kool-aid.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 9:09 AM on January 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
What's mass transit like in South Philly? This is also a problem in Baltimore, largely because mass transit is so completely awful in most neighborhoods. Many places require you to have a car to live there, and with shared housing you're often looking at 2 to 3 cars per house. Once you throw in the bar scene, you basically cannot park on busy weekends or holidays.
posted by codacorolla at 9:16 AM on January 24, 2017
posted by codacorolla at 9:16 AM on January 24, 2017
This kind of thing makes me very uncomfortable. I don't love people parking illegally but internet vigilantism makes me more and more nervous as time goes on. It can get ugly quick and it feels like inappropriate punishment to be hated on the internet for all time for one infraction. I can see the plate numbers in some of those pics and I'm sure it wouldn't be that much work to find out the owners.
posted by FireFountain at 9:20 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by FireFountain at 9:20 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
In Boston lately I've noticed it's been the Uber/Lyft drivers who are most commonly parking in bike lanes and crosswalks. Regular taxis just stop right in the lane.
Spoken like someone who's never taken someone's parking space in South Boston after 1/2 inch of snow falls.
I feel like the police really need to investigate those "I will find you and I will KILL YOU!" notes people leave on space-takers' cars as death threats.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:21 AM on January 24, 2017
Spoken like someone who's never taken someone's parking space in South Boston after 1/2 inch of snow falls.
I feel like the police really need to investigate those "I will find you and I will KILL YOU!" notes people leave on space-takers' cars as death threats.
posted by backseatpilot at 9:21 AM on January 24, 2017
>>> I still wish we had this in Toronto.
The thing is, issues related to traffic safety (parking, running red lights) are important: 2016 the deadliest year for pedestrians in Toronto in over a decade
posted by My Dad at 9:26 AM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
The thing is, issues related to traffic safety (parking, running red lights) are important: 2016 the deadliest year for pedestrians in Toronto in over a decade
posted by My Dad at 9:26 AM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Ehhh...living in Philly for 7 years, the parking habits of South Philadelphians is definitely a cultural trend and frankly it hasn't bothered that many people. It's actually expected because Philadelphia is a very old city (by Americans standards) and wasn't designed to accommodate lots of vehicles. The SEPTA public transit services, including buses, the El, trolleys, etc are quite good, but keep in mind Philly is a massive city with a population of 1.5 million. The streets were designed for horse-drawn carriages, and the blue collar sprawl which is South Philly was sort of an afterthought in city planning. I don't know, obviously there are lots of problems, but it does seem unfair to force Philadelphians, many of whom live on or just above the poverty line, to pay tickets on their 1997 Lincoln Continentals. It's one of those, the solution would generate as many problems as it's trying to fix, while impacting the poor and locals disproportionately. These people don't pay for parking garages and so forth simply because most of them just can't. Obviously the parking meter maids have turned a blind eye to a degree of this bad parking behavior for a reason. I'm sure it's been discussed among the politicians before. South Philadelphians are notoriously rough around the edges, and while the threats must not be tolerated, their anger is in some capacities, legitimate.
Lots of people ride bikes, take public, and walk. Philly's just not designed to even hold as many people as it does. Devilishly advocating, here.
posted by erattacorrige at 9:27 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lots of people ride bikes, take public, and walk. Philly's just not designed to even hold as many people as it does. Devilishly advocating, here.
posted by erattacorrige at 9:27 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
There are more cars in Philadelphia than places to put them. That is especially true in South Philly. Cars are kind of a necessity if you want to go grocery shopping since Philly supermarkets are sparsely distributed. It sucks for drivers, it sucks for pedestrians (especially disabled pedestrians) and it needs to be fixed. We have ZipCar, which if you don't commute to work is actually a much better cost/benefit than car ownership, but the cars are poorly maintained and are often just missing.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on January 24, 2017
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on January 24, 2017
My dad lives in South Philly and I have long marveled at the feral and lawless parking habits of his neighbors. The Broad Street median being the most obvious example, but also the way people living along the smaller one-way streets will double-park on one side of the street (so that you have one line of parked cars on, say, the north side of the street, and on the south side of the street, two lines of parked cars).
My neighborhood here in LA is tough to park in, and people resort to some similar strategies but the LA Parking Enforcement is ruthless and omniscient.
posted by Aubergine at 9:29 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
My neighborhood here in LA is tough to park in, and people resort to some similar strategies but the LA Parking Enforcement is ruthless and omniscient.
posted by Aubergine at 9:29 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
A lot of these "not a spots" are fairly conservative for South Philly - even the ones where cars are on sidewalks. If she goes a little bit further south she'd find parking in the center turning lane of a two-way road; parking on center medians; I've seen doubleparking on short streets that are only 2 cars long - since both cars can get out if they're doubleparked in, I guess it's seen as kosher - but it's strange to see 8 cars parked in 4 lanes in a two-car-long street and leave only one lane left for travel.
posted by entropone at 9:32 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by entropone at 9:32 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
“The right to have access to every building in the city by private motorcar, in an age when everyone possesses such a vehicle, is actually the right to destroy the city.” –Lewis Mumford
posted by entropicamericana at 9:37 AM on January 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 9:37 AM on January 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
Reminds me of Stop A Douchebag.
Its funny to me how many motorists can't understand that its their personal responsibility to find appropriate parking for their own car.
posted by 13twelve at 9:39 AM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Its funny to me how many motorists can't understand that its their personal responsibility to find appropriate parking for their own car.
posted by 13twelve at 9:39 AM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Life finds a way.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:44 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 9:44 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am... just stunned that people park in the median/suicide lane. !!!
The rest of it (blocking crosswalks, hydrants, bike lanes, etc) is pretty typical to cities.
It's a difficult problem - we've designed American life to basically require a car for many people, but cities don't have the room for them. And culturally, car owners have come to expect that public streets are an appropriate place for them to store their private vehicle. It's kind of crazy when you think about it. A couple years ago someone dumped their boat (on a trailer) on my street. Just parked it and left it there. And it drove me NUTS for some reason - but how is that any different from a car? It's not, really.
The cyclist/pedestrian in me wishes the externalities of car ownership were more fairly distributed to the car owners. But the class/poverty conscious part of me knows that while the people driving this car probably can't claim poverty, many people can. If you have to live far from work or in a food desert it makes it more likely that you have to own a car, yet less likely that you can afford to pay for the true cost of parking. Transit oriented developments, at least here in Chicago, are often luxury apartments/condos and don't help with affordability.
posted by misskaz at 9:49 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
The rest of it (blocking crosswalks, hydrants, bike lanes, etc) is pretty typical to cities.
It's a difficult problem - we've designed American life to basically require a car for many people, but cities don't have the room for them. And culturally, car owners have come to expect that public streets are an appropriate place for them to store their private vehicle. It's kind of crazy when you think about it. A couple years ago someone dumped their boat (on a trailer) on my street. Just parked it and left it there. And it drove me NUTS for some reason - but how is that any different from a car? It's not, really.
The cyclist/pedestrian in me wishes the externalities of car ownership were more fairly distributed to the car owners. But the class/poverty conscious part of me knows that while the people driving this car probably can't claim poverty, many people can. If you have to live far from work or in a food desert it makes it more likely that you have to own a car, yet less likely that you can afford to pay for the true cost of parking. Transit oriented developments, at least here in Chicago, are often luxury apartments/condos and don't help with affordability.
posted by misskaz at 9:49 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is so wonderfully, predictably Philadelphian.
-The minute anyone, ever complains about parking here they get slapped with the accusation of "you must not have lived here long" often with bonus snide comments about bikes.
-While I did see one POC among those shaming comments, I find that they're often made by white people, about neighborhood's that are historically white. What they don't mention is that Kensington, up north abutting Fishtown, has equally narrow, windy impossible for parking streets. Same with some other areas of North Philly. But I don't see a ton of people going to bat for parking in those neighborhoods, which also have many people who've lived in Philly for generations.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:51 AM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
-The minute anyone, ever complains about parking here they get slapped with the accusation of "you must not have lived here long" often with bonus snide comments about bikes.
-While I did see one POC among those shaming comments, I find that they're often made by white people, about neighborhood's that are historically white. What they don't mention is that Kensington, up north abutting Fishtown, has equally narrow, windy impossible for parking streets. Same with some other areas of North Philly. But I don't see a ton of people going to bat for parking in those neighborhoods, which also have many people who've lived in Philly for generations.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:51 AM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I just tried looking up a comprehensive bus map for Philadelphia. It does not exist. There is one for center city but a system-wide map is nowhere to be found. This is typical of Philadelphia, though - even Wissahickon Valley Park is un-mapped, though you can buy one from a group of dedicated park enthusiasts.
We don't have a car and don't really want one unless we have dedicated parking, but the way things are set up here make it difficult.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:53 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
We don't have a car and don't really want one unless we have dedicated parking, but the way things are set up here make it difficult.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:53 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hit post before I could finish my thoughts:
-More broadly, as evidenced by this post, the whole concept of transit oriented development and smart city planning has something of an image problem. The US has been so car-centric for so long that anyone advocating for something different is automatically a bougie gentrifier, out of touch. Frankly, it doesn't help that the field tends to skew young and white, and long-term city residents have seen waves of young white people move in, have kids, and then immediately move to the suburbs for a long time now. (Because so many people are delaying having children now, I suspect that a lot of my cohort is also delaying the move to the suburbs that often accompanies kids, breathless thinkpieces about millennials wanting city life be damned. Give it a few years and then recheck those numbers about more people of my generation living in cities.)
I should ask my friend who's involved in the young planner scene here what they're doing to work with POC communities and attract POC members, I'm genuinely curious now.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:57 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
-More broadly, as evidenced by this post, the whole concept of transit oriented development and smart city planning has something of an image problem. The US has been so car-centric for so long that anyone advocating for something different is automatically a bougie gentrifier, out of touch. Frankly, it doesn't help that the field tends to skew young and white, and long-term city residents have seen waves of young white people move in, have kids, and then immediately move to the suburbs for a long time now. (Because so many people are delaying having children now, I suspect that a lot of my cohort is also delaying the move to the suburbs that often accompanies kids, breathless thinkpieces about millennials wanting city life be damned. Give it a few years and then recheck those numbers about more people of my generation living in cities.)
I should ask my friend who's involved in the young planner scene here what they're doing to work with POC communities and attract POC members, I'm genuinely curious now.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:57 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Also, if Philadelphians think bicyclists here are rude, they've clearly never lived in Brooklyn. I'm amazed at how polite the vast majority of the cyclists have been. Instead of remembering the angry bikers who almost mowed me down in a crossswalk while running a red light, I now remember the kind cyclists that have stopped at stop signs and let me cross.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:00 AM on January 24, 2017
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:00 AM on January 24, 2017
Good for her. I hope she makes this more explicitly about disability/access, and not just about illegality. There's a great point to be made about accessibility, I don't think it'll come through if her project seems couched in rules lawyering.
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:01 AM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:01 AM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
I love this. Trust me, she's getting far enough south. Median parking got completely internet-litigated during the DNC and I'm quite sure she doesn't want to touch it. Definitely best when the emphasis is on accessibility.
I don't see this as internet vigilantism. From what I've observed, the practical message is, "Hey, PPA/PPD, take a look at this." No one's keying the cars (not because of this, anyway), but they might get a ticket. Is that still vigilantism?
posted by supercres at 10:27 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
I don't see this as internet vigilantism. From what I've observed, the practical message is, "Hey, PPA/PPD, take a look at this." No one's keying the cars (not because of this, anyway), but they might get a ticket. Is that still vigilantism?
posted by supercres at 10:27 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
This kind of thing makes me very uncomfortable. I don't love people parking illegally but internet vigilantism makes me more and more nervous as time goes on. It can get ugly quick and it feels like inappropriate punishment to be hated on the internet for all time for one infraction.
Even though I'm the person saying I would like this in Toronto, I hear this. In fact, this is the reason I don't post videos of people (mostly drivers) doing all sorts of potentially deadly things. (If I weren't worried about this, I would have a twitter where I take videos of people in their cars using their phones, from my streetcar perch*). In my case, what worries me isn't that they will be hated on the internet, but that some nutjob will literally kill somebody. I realize that's a very unlikely happening, but you never know what an unbalanced person will do, and I worry that if I put a target on someone's head for the purpose of attracting shame, it might attract more than that.
I actually hadn't seen the license plates in the pics I saw. i assumed that was on purpose. While
* I have a dream that one day you'll have to put a sticker with your license plate number on the front car windows. Then there can be an app that automatically sends video with geotag to traffic enforcement. See cell phone user. Send video. They get a ticket in the mail. [Yeah, I know there are many people opposed to red light cameras and such, but I'm on the don't run red lights/don't use your phone in the car side of this debate]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:29 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Even though I'm the person saying I would like this in Toronto, I hear this. In fact, this is the reason I don't post videos of people (mostly drivers) doing all sorts of potentially deadly things. (If I weren't worried about this, I would have a twitter where I take videos of people in their cars using their phones, from my streetcar perch*). In my case, what worries me isn't that they will be hated on the internet, but that some nutjob will literally kill somebody. I realize that's a very unlikely happening, but you never know what an unbalanced person will do, and I worry that if I put a target on someone's head for the purpose of attracting shame, it might attract more than that.
I actually hadn't seen the license plates in the pics I saw. i assumed that was on purpose. While
* I have a dream that one day you'll have to put a sticker with your license plate number on the front car windows. Then there can be an app that automatically sends video with geotag to traffic enforcement. See cell phone user. Send video. They get a ticket in the mail. [Yeah, I know there are many people opposed to red light cameras and such, but I'm on the don't run red lights/don't use your phone in the car side of this debate]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 10:29 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
> I don't see any pictures of the 200 cars parked on the Broad Street median, even though it's always been illegal.
It's not actually illegal.
posted by desuetude at 10:40 AM on January 24, 2017
It's not actually illegal.
posted by desuetude at 10:40 AM on January 24, 2017
> There is one for center city but a system-wide map is nowhere to be found.
Here: http://septa.org/maps/region/pdf/phila.pdf
posted by desuetude at 10:43 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Here: http://septa.org/maps/region/pdf/phila.pdf
posted by desuetude at 10:43 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's not actually illegal.
It's not enforced, but parking on the median is illegal. I'm sure you can guess why South Philly gets that special policy exemption from the PPA.
posted by gladly at 10:54 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
It's not enforced, but parking on the median is illegal. I'm sure you can guess why South Philly gets that special policy exemption from the PPA.
posted by gladly at 10:54 AM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is this not a universal thing, that someone builds an account around the idiotic driving/parking examples of their city/town?
Here's an example from Halifax Can't Park's feed, one of at least three I know of for Halifax (pop. 390,000).
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:57 AM on January 24, 2017
Here's an example from Halifax Can't Park's feed, one of at least three I know of for Halifax (pop. 390,000).
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:57 AM on January 24, 2017
It's not actually illegal.
No, it's definitely illegal to park on the median of Broad Street. It's just not enforced, except for the worst cases (like blocking crosswalks).
On preview, what gladly said.
posted by sixpack at 10:57 AM on January 24, 2017
No, it's definitely illegal to park on the median of Broad Street. It's just not enforced, except for the worst cases (like blocking crosswalks).
On preview, what gladly said.
posted by sixpack at 10:57 AM on January 24, 2017
I post pictures of cars blocking bike lanes on social media now and then. I don't worry about internet vigilanteism for a number of reasons:
1. When I try to politely ask drivers to not block the bike lane, more often than not I get cussed at, argued with, or ignored.
2. I only have a few hundred followers on Twitter and I don't have the clout to spur any kind of mob justice.
3. Honestly, really? No one cares enough about a car blocking the bike lane to dig up a person's license plate and find out who they are and track them down and do something to them. Seriously, NO ONE.
4. I'm more likely to get screamed at on the internet by angry car drivers for daring to suggest they not make my commute more dangerous than anything else. Even though everyone is a pedestrian at some point unless they are teleporting from their car to their front door, in terms of people who vocally choose "sides" in the debate, drivers far outnumber pedestrians or cyclists.
5. There are plenty of op-eds in the Tribune and comments on any article about cyclists and police "enforcement events" that target the so-called scourge of scofflaw cyclists, but the only enforcement events on drivers are the occasional DUI checkpoint.
Recently at the behest of an alderman, cops gave out tickets to cyclists who were crossing with a pedestrian walk signal (not in the crosswalk, just alongside it) at a 6-way intersection. This allows them to get halfway across the intersection, and then proceed across the other street when the light is green. I personally don't do that myself as a cyclist, but those who do say they feel safer being able to get ahead of the cars and established in their lane before the cars get through the intersection. That this is apparently an issue worth spending several officers time on vs all the violations by drivers in charge of 2-ton machines means yeah, I'm not gonna feel bad about posting the picture of a car blocking a crosswalk or bike lane.
I'm not really sure why I post pictures of drivers behaving illegally sometimes. It's not about the specific driver; as mentioned above, I don't expect any effect. It's more about just raising awareness to the general public about how frequently drivers break the law in a way that makes things more dangerous for other road users.
posted by misskaz at 10:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
1. When I try to politely ask drivers to not block the bike lane, more often than not I get cussed at, argued with, or ignored.
2. I only have a few hundred followers on Twitter and I don't have the clout to spur any kind of mob justice.
3. Honestly, really? No one cares enough about a car blocking the bike lane to dig up a person's license plate and find out who they are and track them down and do something to them. Seriously, NO ONE.
4. I'm more likely to get screamed at on the internet by angry car drivers for daring to suggest they not make my commute more dangerous than anything else. Even though everyone is a pedestrian at some point unless they are teleporting from their car to their front door, in terms of people who vocally choose "sides" in the debate, drivers far outnumber pedestrians or cyclists.
5. There are plenty of op-eds in the Tribune and comments on any article about cyclists and police "enforcement events" that target the so-called scourge of scofflaw cyclists, but the only enforcement events on drivers are the occasional DUI checkpoint.
Recently at the behest of an alderman, cops gave out tickets to cyclists who were crossing with a pedestrian walk signal (not in the crosswalk, just alongside it) at a 6-way intersection. This allows them to get halfway across the intersection, and then proceed across the other street when the light is green. I personally don't do that myself as a cyclist, but those who do say they feel safer being able to get ahead of the cars and established in their lane before the cars get through the intersection. That this is apparently an issue worth spending several officers time on vs all the violations by drivers in charge of 2-ton machines means yeah, I'm not gonna feel bad about posting the picture of a car blocking a crosswalk or bike lane.
I'm not really sure why I post pictures of drivers behaving illegally sometimes. It's not about the specific driver; as mentioned above, I don't expect any effect. It's more about just raising awareness to the general public about how frequently drivers break the law in a way that makes things more dangerous for other road users.
posted by misskaz at 10:59 AM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
desuetude: How did you get to that link?
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:19 AM on January 24, 2017
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:19 AM on January 24, 2017
I live in South Philly. I have a car. (I take public transit to work everyday, and while our system is no NYC or Paris or London, it's pretty extensive. It's FAR more extensive than Baltimore, for instance.)
Personally, I really, really despise people who park in crosswalks because it makes it impossible to safely navigate stop signs to see the intersection while driving. I am 100% behind shaming of that. I am less concerned with cars parking with wheels on the curb if it's their own street and/or the neighbors are okay with it, but you don't park on someone else's sidewalk for no good reason. It's rare to see anyone parked in front of a hydrant because that shit will almost always get you a ticket, no matter who you are.
I'm not originally from Philadelphia, and this makes me an interloper to some old-timers, but I'll be living in this house for the rest of my life, love my neighborhood, and respect my neighbors. Myself, I've lived in Philly for almost 20 years and I am increasingly frustrated by some of the brand-new homebuyers who get very shouty at meetings but are unfamiliar with urban living in general and unwilling to consider interacting with other humans. There is some neighborhood cultural context that makes defense of the parking, um, traditions make more sense, and a lot of it is rooted in a) knowing your neighbors and b) people feeling anxious because they no longer know their neighbors.
As for the median parking in South Broad, people who complain about cars being in the median for no other reason than it "looks trashy" -- ugh. As if there's such an enormous difference between a row of cars parked on the side of the street and a row of cars in the middle that you just can't stand to look at it? This parking isn't used in lieu of public transit, it's used by people who live and work in the neighborhoods, and believe me, it's never a first-choice parking spot. It's basically overflow parking for locals.
posted by desuetude at 11:24 AM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Personally, I really, really despise people who park in crosswalks because it makes it impossible to safely navigate stop signs to see the intersection while driving. I am 100% behind shaming of that. I am less concerned with cars parking with wheels on the curb if it's their own street and/or the neighbors are okay with it, but you don't park on someone else's sidewalk for no good reason. It's rare to see anyone parked in front of a hydrant because that shit will almost always get you a ticket, no matter who you are.
I'm not originally from Philadelphia, and this makes me an interloper to some old-timers, but I'll be living in this house for the rest of my life, love my neighborhood, and respect my neighbors. Myself, I've lived in Philly for almost 20 years and I am increasingly frustrated by some of the brand-new homebuyers who get very shouty at meetings but are unfamiliar with urban living in general and unwilling to consider interacting with other humans. There is some neighborhood cultural context that makes defense of the parking, um, traditions make more sense, and a lot of it is rooted in a) knowing your neighbors and b) people feeling anxious because they no longer know their neighbors.
As for the median parking in South Broad, people who complain about cars being in the median for no other reason than it "looks trashy" -- ugh. As if there's such an enormous difference between a row of cars parked on the side of the street and a row of cars in the middle that you just can't stand to look at it? This parking isn't used in lieu of public transit, it's used by people who live and work in the neighborhoods, and believe me, it's never a first-choice parking spot. It's basically overflow parking for locals.
posted by desuetude at 11:24 AM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
> desuetude: How did you get to that link?
SEPTA site, maps page. Fifth link from the bottom, "Philadelphia Street and Transit."
posted by desuetude at 11:25 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
SEPTA site, maps page. Fifth link from the bottom, "Philadelphia Street and Transit."
posted by desuetude at 11:25 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
One of these is across the street from my house. It's been framed to hide the sidewalk closed barrier that renders that crosswalk useless. It's not legal but I'm not freaking out at any of my neighbors who use that spot.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:27 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by cmfletcher at 11:27 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, this is my favorite (unofficial) integrated SEPTA map. For everything else, Google Maps or Transit app.
posted by supercres at 11:36 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by supercres at 11:36 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am less concerned with cars parking with wheels on the curb if it's their own street and/or the neighbors are okay with it, but you don't park on someone else's sidewalk for no good reason.
It's not their sidewalk. A person in a wheelchair who's forced into the street because somebody has parked blocking the sidewalk really doesn't give a damn whether the illegal parker is on the sidewalk in front of their own house or somewhere else. They're blocking the sidewalk. That's the problem.
posted by Lexica at 11:43 AM on January 24, 2017 [17 favorites]
It's not their sidewalk. A person in a wheelchair who's forced into the street because somebody has parked blocking the sidewalk really doesn't give a damn whether the illegal parker is on the sidewalk in front of their own house or somewhere else. They're blocking the sidewalk. That's the problem.
posted by Lexica at 11:43 AM on January 24, 2017 [17 favorites]
As for the median parking in South Broad, people who complain about cars being in the median for no other reason than it "looks trashy" -- ugh.
I don't think it looks trashy at all; it's been that way my whole life. I do think it's dangerous. When you've got drivers exiting their car and stepping out from the middle of Broad St. and you're not expecting them there at all, it's quite an adrenaline rush. Then there are cars trying to enter traffic from those parking spots. I also think it makes seeing your way through a turn harder.
posted by gladly at 11:46 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't think it looks trashy at all; it's been that way my whole life. I do think it's dangerous. When you've got drivers exiting their car and stepping out from the middle of Broad St. and you're not expecting them there at all, it's quite an adrenaline rush. Then there are cars trying to enter traffic from those parking spots. I also think it makes seeing your way through a turn harder.
posted by gladly at 11:46 AM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Anyway, while I lived there, a 9 year old girl died in a house fire because the fire truck couldn't turn onto her street because of cars parked too close to the intersection
We live (in London) in a street that's too narrow for trucks when cars are parked on both sides, but the authorities would ticket or tow you if you parked with wheels on the sidewalk. It was a pretty common occurrence when someone was moving house to see the removal truck at the top of the street at 8am, and about 100m further down by 9am, trying to get cars moved so they could get by.
I'd often wondered what would happen if there was a fire, and then one day there was.
The fire engine (=truck) turned into the street, gunned his engine, and went for it. Wing mirrors went flying, doors had huge scratches on them and the odd fender got taken off. A little later firemen walked down the street leaving insurance claim forms on windscreens.
A week or so after that, we had permission from the local council to park wheels-up on the sidewalk. Funny that.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 11:52 AM on January 24, 2017 [11 favorites]
We live (in London) in a street that's too narrow for trucks when cars are parked on both sides, but the authorities would ticket or tow you if you parked with wheels on the sidewalk. It was a pretty common occurrence when someone was moving house to see the removal truck at the top of the street at 8am, and about 100m further down by 9am, trying to get cars moved so they could get by.
I'd often wondered what would happen if there was a fire, and then one day there was.
The fire engine (=truck) turned into the street, gunned his engine, and went for it. Wing mirrors went flying, doors had huge scratches on them and the odd fender got taken off. A little later firemen walked down the street leaving insurance claim forms on windscreens.
A week or so after that, we had permission from the local council to park wheels-up on the sidewalk. Funny that.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 11:52 AM on January 24, 2017 [11 favorites]
As for the median parking in South Broad, people who complain about cars being in the median for no other reason than it "looks trashy" -- ugh. As if there's such an enormous difference between a row of cars parked on the side of the street and a row of cars in the middle that you just can't stand to look at it?
I haven't heard complaints that it looks trashy, but I'm sure they are out there.
My concern comes from the default acceptance of public space as place to store private vehicles. Not every household in Philly has a car, but most do and there are already too many cars.
Obviously there's not the space in this old city for everybody to be able to own a car and leave it on the street. So what's to be done? It's a difficult situation to fix overnight, but there do need to be fewer cars, more and better alternatives to car use so that more people don't need cars. Some people always will, but lots of other cities figure it out. Usually through a combination of good urban planning, good transit options, and pricing parking.
And usually, when that's done, it's a better situation for walkers, cyclists, transit users - AND drivers.
posted by entropone at 11:53 AM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I haven't heard complaints that it looks trashy, but I'm sure they are out there.
My concern comes from the default acceptance of public space as place to store private vehicles. Not every household in Philly has a car, but most do and there are already too many cars.
Obviously there's not the space in this old city for everybody to be able to own a car and leave it on the street. So what's to be done? It's a difficult situation to fix overnight, but there do need to be fewer cars, more and better alternatives to car use so that more people don't need cars. Some people always will, but lots of other cities figure it out. Usually through a combination of good urban planning, good transit options, and pricing parking.
And usually, when that's done, it's a better situation for walkers, cyclists, transit users - AND drivers.
posted by entropone at 11:53 AM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's not their sidewalk. A person in a wheelchair who's forced into the street because somebody has parked blocking the sidewalk really doesn't give a damn whether the illegal parker is on the sidewalk in front of their own house or somewhere else. They're blocking the sidewalk. That's the problem.
Besides being an urban dweller and avid walker, I also sit on the board of a non-profit agency that coordinates volunteer services for the elderly. I live in the oldest (in terms of demographics) city in Canada, and my neighborhood of 15,000 people has the highest percentage of elderly residents in in the city as well.
And yet these folks are often ignored (they don't get out much) or mocked for being slow etc etc etc.
Anyway, as I mentioned upthread, our city is removing on-street parking, which is pissing motorists off. But in the core there are plenty of multilevel parkades (I think the American colloquialism is "parking garage"); it's just that the parkades are located a block or two away from where people would usually want to park.
The on-street parking is being removed by a building boom, where level parking lots are being developed into towers, and also in favor of bike lanes. There is a lot of hatred for bike lanes here, but that's more-or-less evened out by a strong bike lobby, and current momentum towards creating bike lanes (Victoria, BC, where I live, is the most bike-friendly city in Canada, far more bike-friendly than Vancouver).
Still, as a pedestrian, and as someone who works with seniors, I frequently voice my opposition to bike lanes, especially in my neighborhood of 15,000, and in "urban villages."
Seniors need cars to get to doctor appointments, to go shopping, go to the hairdresser... just to get around. Depriving them of on-street parking is a real problem.
But we need to remember that not everyone can somehow navigate around a car parked up on the sidewalk.
And what does that mean for that person if we inconvenience them, while conveniencing ourselves?
posted by My Dad at 11:58 AM on January 24, 2017
Besides being an urban dweller and avid walker, I also sit on the board of a non-profit agency that coordinates volunteer services for the elderly. I live in the oldest (in terms of demographics) city in Canada, and my neighborhood of 15,000 people has the highest percentage of elderly residents in in the city as well.
And yet these folks are often ignored (they don't get out much) or mocked for being slow etc etc etc.
Anyway, as I mentioned upthread, our city is removing on-street parking, which is pissing motorists off. But in the core there are plenty of multilevel parkades (I think the American colloquialism is "parking garage"); it's just that the parkades are located a block or two away from where people would usually want to park.
The on-street parking is being removed by a building boom, where level parking lots are being developed into towers, and also in favor of bike lanes. There is a lot of hatred for bike lanes here, but that's more-or-less evened out by a strong bike lobby, and current momentum towards creating bike lanes (Victoria, BC, where I live, is the most bike-friendly city in Canada, far more bike-friendly than Vancouver).
Still, as a pedestrian, and as someone who works with seniors, I frequently voice my opposition to bike lanes, especially in my neighborhood of 15,000, and in "urban villages."
Seniors need cars to get to doctor appointments, to go shopping, go to the hairdresser... just to get around. Depriving them of on-street parking is a real problem.
But we need to remember that not everyone can somehow navigate around a car parked up on the sidewalk.
And what does that mean for that person if we inconvenience them, while conveniencing ourselves?
posted by My Dad at 11:58 AM on January 24, 2017
Cars really bring out the worst in people.
posted by ghharr at 12:00 PM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by ghharr at 12:00 PM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Oh man... I used to live in Philly. I can't imagine this shit going down on my block circa 2001... you'd get stabbed. (See also, fucking with another person's lawnchairs marking a snow cleared parking spot.)
posted by ph00dz at 12:26 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ph00dz at 12:26 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
The police have been working to stop the lawn chair method in recent years.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:34 PM on January 24, 2017
posted by cmfletcher at 12:34 PM on January 24, 2017
Cars really bring out the worst in people
especially in a urban culture that's evidently proud of its truculent halfwittery
posted by thelonius at 12:40 PM on January 24, 2017
especially in a urban culture that's evidently proud of its truculent halfwittery
posted by thelonius at 12:40 PM on January 24, 2017
Damn. Some of the tweets in response compel me to share this gem from @nihilist_arbys:
Q: How is our new Fire Roasted Philly sandwich like the city of Philadelphia?
A: Both are comprised mostly of assholes
Enjoy Arbys
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:41 PM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Q: How is our new Fire Roasted Philly sandwich like the city of Philadelphia?
A: Both are comprised mostly of assholes
Enjoy Arbys
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:41 PM on January 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
The official response to @nihilist_arbys
warning: use headphones
posted by cmfletcher at 12:45 PM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
warning: use headphones
posted by cmfletcher at 12:45 PM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Huh. cmfletcher, I'm not sure that the official response does anything except reinforce the @nihilist_arbys message.
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:51 PM on January 24, 2017
posted by ensign_ricky at 12:51 PM on January 24, 2017
A week or so after that, we had permission from the local council to park wheels-up on the sidewalk. Funny that.
Wouldn't it have been safer for all concerned (residents who might die in fires and pedestrians who need to use the sidewalk) to not allow parking on a street that obviously isn't wide enough to park on?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:55 PM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
Wouldn't it have been safer for all concerned (residents who might die in fires and pedestrians who need to use the sidewalk) to not allow parking on a street that obviously isn't wide enough to park on?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 12:55 PM on January 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
> It's not their sidewalk. A person in a wheelchair who's forced into the street because somebody has parked blocking the sidewalk really doesn't give a damn whether the illegal parker is on the sidewalk in front of their own house or somewhere else. They're blocking the sidewalk. That's the problem.
Sorry, I should have been more clear about which behavior I meant. Blocking the sidewalk, yeah no, that's always wrong. I had a neighbor for awhile who would pull his entire car up onto the sidewalk in front of his house and it drove me bananas. I was talking about putting wheels up on the edge of the curb to parallel park on the more narrow side streets where there is enough room to park, but it's TIGHT.
posted by desuetude at 12:57 PM on January 24, 2017
Sorry, I should have been more clear about which behavior I meant. Blocking the sidewalk, yeah no, that's always wrong. I had a neighbor for awhile who would pull his entire car up onto the sidewalk in front of his house and it drove me bananas. I was talking about putting wheels up on the edge of the curb to parallel park on the more narrow side streets where there is enough room to park, but it's TIGHT.
posted by desuetude at 12:57 PM on January 24, 2017
Let people who report parking violations get half of the fine. Take a picture/video, send it in, wait for reward.
posted by pracowity at 1:22 PM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 1:22 PM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Other thought: all these people are paying taxes to maintain and use these streets. I don't think it makes sense to make people pay for parking when they already pay for parking via taxes. The local government needs to deal with this, but Philly is such a shitshow (a lovable shitshow) that it's the last thing on their minds.
posted by erattacorrige at 1:34 PM on January 24, 2017
posted by erattacorrige at 1:34 PM on January 24, 2017
Other thought: all these people are paying taxes to maintain and use these streets. I don't think it makes sense to make people pay for parking when they already pay for parking via taxes.
what about all the people who pay taxes and don't own a car? or the people that pay taxes and would prefer to walk or bike?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:40 PM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
what about all the people who pay taxes and don't own a car? or the people that pay taxes and would prefer to walk or bike?
posted by entropicamericana at 1:40 PM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
or the people that pay taxes and would prefer to walk or bike?
Well obviously, if you're walking on the sidewalks you're using the sidewalks which your tax money paid for. Ditto for bikers. I was a staunch biker in Philly (didn't have a car) and I fully appreciated my right to use the streets as well as any vehicle.
posted by erattacorrige at 1:44 PM on January 24, 2017
Well obviously, if you're walking on the sidewalks you're using the sidewalks which your tax money paid for. Ditto for bikers. I was a staunch biker in Philly (didn't have a car) and I fully appreciated my right to use the streets as well as any vehicle.
posted by erattacorrige at 1:44 PM on January 24, 2017
Parking Wars was one of my favorite reality TV shows because there was so much Souf Philly realness on display.
posted by nikoniko at 1:52 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 1:52 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Other thought: all these people are paying taxes to maintain and use these streets. I don't think it makes sense to make people pay for parking when they already pay for parking via taxes.
Paying taxes is not something that buys your rights. There is no such thing as taxpapers' rights. Paying taxes is a duty of citizenship (usually in the broad sense, not just legal get-a-passport citizenship). There are rights that go with citizenship (sometimes in the broad sense, sometimes in the passport sense). These are not particularly connected to another. If you don't pay your taxes or don't vote, or don't any other duty of citizenship, you don't suddenly lose habeus corpus. If you agree to not exercise your right to free assembly, that doesn't get you out of jury duty. Please do not conflate these things. There are no taxpayers rights. You are not buying anything when you pay your taxes. You are not paying for parking. You are not paying for sidewalks. You are paying to keep your civilization running and existing. As long as your civilization runs and exists, you are getting what you paid for whether you drove on the road, or sent your kids to public school, or called 911 or not.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:08 PM on January 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
Paying taxes is not something that buys your rights. There is no such thing as taxpapers' rights. Paying taxes is a duty of citizenship (usually in the broad sense, not just legal get-a-passport citizenship). There are rights that go with citizenship (sometimes in the broad sense, sometimes in the passport sense). These are not particularly connected to another. If you don't pay your taxes or don't vote, or don't any other duty of citizenship, you don't suddenly lose habeus corpus. If you agree to not exercise your right to free assembly, that doesn't get you out of jury duty. Please do not conflate these things. There are no taxpayers rights. You are not buying anything when you pay your taxes. You are not paying for parking. You are not paying for sidewalks. You are paying to keep your civilization running and existing. As long as your civilization runs and exists, you are getting what you paid for whether you drove on the road, or sent your kids to public school, or called 911 or not.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 2:08 PM on January 24, 2017 [12 favorites]
As long as your civilization runs and exists, you are getting what you paid for whether you drove on the road, or sent your kids to public school, or called 911 or not.
Yes, I understand. I see what you're saying, @ifonlyIhad..... I understand there is no correlation between the taxes you pay and XYZ service, whether it's utilized or not. But the streets are for all people to use, the sidewalks are for all people to use. Perhaps I'm just interpreting the social contract differently.
posted by erattacorrige at 3:02 PM on January 24, 2017
Yes, I understand. I see what you're saying, @ifonlyIhad..... I understand there is no correlation between the taxes you pay and XYZ service, whether it's utilized or not. But the streets are for all people to use, the sidewalks are for all people to use. Perhaps I'm just interpreting the social contract differently.
posted by erattacorrige at 3:02 PM on January 24, 2017
Other thought: all these people are paying taxes to maintain and use these streets. I don't think it makes sense to make people pay for parking when they already pay for parking via taxes.
My taxes pay for road maintenance etc. So does this mean if don't using on-street parking, I should get a tax rebate? Ain't going to happen, so I have to suck it up. Same as for motorists.
posted by My Dad at 3:07 PM on January 24, 2017
My taxes pay for road maintenance etc. So does this mean if don't using on-street parking, I should get a tax rebate? Ain't going to happen, so I have to suck it up. Same as for motorists.
posted by My Dad at 3:07 PM on January 24, 2017
So does this mean if don't using on-street parking, I should get a tax rebate? Ain't going to happen, so I have to suck it up. Same as for motorists.
No way. Do you use the roads to drive on? Do you use other public services? Sure you do. It's not like there's X amount of individual dollars going to Y parking space to maintain it. This comment is just silly.
posted by erattacorrige at 3:09 PM on January 24, 2017
No way. Do you use the roads to drive on? Do you use other public services? Sure you do. It's not like there's X amount of individual dollars going to Y parking space to maintain it. This comment is just silly.
posted by erattacorrige at 3:09 PM on January 24, 2017
Speaking of public services, this is the rationale/excuse for not providing municipal street cleaning in Philadelphia. So frankly some people's taxes are going to maintain other people's free parking instead of clean streets in their own neighborhoods.
posted by sputzie at 3:40 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sputzie at 3:40 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yes, I understand. I see what you're saying, @ifonlyIhad..... I understand there is no correlation between the taxes you pay and XYZ service, whether it's utilized or not. But the streets are for all people to use, the sidewalks are for all people to use. Perhaps I'm just interpreting the social contract differently.
Right. All the people. Not the taxpayers. If somehow you managed to go through your life without paying a penny of tax to anyone, the streets would be for you as much as for anyone. But that doesn't mean "to use whenever and wherever and however, with no limits and no costs." So what you have as a human being (not as a taxpayer) is the right to use the streets for whatever general purposes are granted for free (like walking or driving on them if those things are free). HUmans are not general automatically granted to right to clog up the streets in some places by dumping their giant heaps of private property on them. And in some of those places, you can pay for this right within certain limits. So to recap: the reason you should have to pay for parking even though you already paid into a fund that paid for the road, is that paying into that fund doesn't give you the right to dump your property on that road, but the people who administer the road on behalf of all the human beings -- taxpayer and not -- who own it, have decided that you may pay for that right.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:40 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Right. All the people. Not the taxpayers. If somehow you managed to go through your life without paying a penny of tax to anyone, the streets would be for you as much as for anyone. But that doesn't mean "to use whenever and wherever and however, with no limits and no costs." So what you have as a human being (not as a taxpayer) is the right to use the streets for whatever general purposes are granted for free (like walking or driving on them if those things are free). HUmans are not general automatically granted to right to clog up the streets in some places by dumping their giant heaps of private property on them. And in some of those places, you can pay for this right within certain limits. So to recap: the reason you should have to pay for parking even though you already paid into a fund that paid for the road, is that paying into that fund doesn't give you the right to dump your property on that road, but the people who administer the road on behalf of all the human beings -- taxpayer and not -- who own it, have decided that you may pay for that right.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:40 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Private car use is HEAVILY subsidized by the government - and by the rest of the population. Gas taxes cover less than half of the cost of maintaining roadways. Everyone else gets to pay for the rest. "This subsidizing of car ownership costs the typical household about $1,100 per year—over and above the costs of gas taxes, tolls, and other user fees." [Source]
posted by entropone at 3:46 PM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by entropone at 3:46 PM on January 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
Other thought: all these people are paying taxes to maintain and use these streets. I don't think it makes sense to make people pay for parking when they already pay for parking via taxes.
What is the true cost of free parking?
Why free parking is bad for everyone
The High Cost of Free Parking
posted by Lexica at 4:17 PM on January 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
What is the true cost of free parking?
Why free parking is bad for everyone
The High Cost of Free Parking
posted by Lexica at 4:17 PM on January 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
> I don't see any pictures of the 200 cars parked on the Broad Street median, even though it's always been illegal. If the city tried to enforce that, I think South Philly would wind up in flames
Whaaaaa? I've lived in Manhattan, I've lived in Boston, I've lived in Queens, and I've never seen that.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:45 PM on January 24, 2017
Whaaaaa? I've lived in Manhattan, I've lived in Boston, I've lived in Queens, and I've never seen that.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:45 PM on January 24, 2017
>>So does this mean if don't using on-street parking, I should get a tax rebate? Ain't going to happen, so I have to suck it up. Same as for motorists.
No way. Do you use the roads to drive on? Do you use other public services? Sure you do. It's not like there's X amount of individual dollars going to Y parking space to maintain it. This comment is just silly.
Easy, tiger, you and I are in total agreement (read my other comments in this thread to get a sense of where I'm coming from).
Anyway, we all pay for the roads, regardless of whether or not we use them. In fact, motorists are subsidized by other taxpayers, so paying for on-street parking is completely reasonable.
posted by My Dad at 5:53 PM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
No way. Do you use the roads to drive on? Do you use other public services? Sure you do. It's not like there's X amount of individual dollars going to Y parking space to maintain it. This comment is just silly.
Easy, tiger, you and I are in total agreement (read my other comments in this thread to get a sense of where I'm coming from).
Anyway, we all pay for the roads, regardless of whether or not we use them. In fact, motorists are subsidized by other taxpayers, so paying for on-street parking is completely reasonable.
posted by My Dad at 5:53 PM on January 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
In fact, motorists are subsidized by other taxpayers, so paying for on-street parking is completely reasonable.
Subsidized by other people, not just taxpayers. The public purse belongs to the public, not just to the taxpayers.
Also, I don't own a car, but I benefit from the existence of the roads: If I take a cab it drives on the roads. My streetcar goes on the roads. I used to use zipcar, and I would always drive the zipcar on the road. When I order pizza or a package from amazon or eat at a restaurant or buy candy at the convenience store, that stuff all got to where it was using roads. So I don't necessarily feel like I'm paying (by virtue of being a person, not by virtue of being a taxpayer) for roads that I don't use, even though I don't own a car.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:06 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Subsidized by other people, not just taxpayers. The public purse belongs to the public, not just to the taxpayers.
Also, I don't own a car, but I benefit from the existence of the roads: If I take a cab it drives on the roads. My streetcar goes on the roads. I used to use zipcar, and I would always drive the zipcar on the road. When I order pizza or a package from amazon or eat at a restaurant or buy candy at the convenience store, that stuff all got to where it was using roads. So I don't necessarily feel like I'm paying (by virtue of being a person, not by virtue of being a taxpayer) for roads that I don't use, even though I don't own a car.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:06 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yes citizens are taxpayers and vice versa; you don't need to have to pay taxes to be a citizen and so on. Of course everyone benefits from roads. My original comment was aimed at pointing out the absurdity of the notion that it's somehow unfair for motorists to pay for parking. It's not how civil society works.
posted by My Dad at 7:02 PM on January 24, 2017
posted by My Dad at 7:02 PM on January 24, 2017
Huh. cmfletcher, I'm not sure that the official response does anything except reinforce the @nihilist_arbys message.
In the Northeast the phrase "Go fuck yourself" has more sentiment and concern than "bless your heart" does in the south. Sometimes things are lost in translation.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:07 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
In the Northeast the phrase "Go fuck yourself" has more sentiment and concern than "bless your heart" does in the south. Sometimes things are lost in translation.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:07 PM on January 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Whaaaaa? I've lived in Manhattan, I've lived in Boston, I've lived in Queens, and I've never seen that.
Yeah no, it's a special Philly thing. It's for-reals totally normal here.
posted by desuetude at 6:54 AM on January 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yeah no, it's a special Philly thing. It's for-reals totally normal here.
posted by desuetude at 6:54 AM on January 25, 2017 [4 favorites]
I lived in the phila suburbs most of my life and moved to the city 6 years ago. As much as I tried, I couldn't go carless due to the pretty severe limitations it set on job searching and the immense time increase it puts on doing things like errands.
That said, I always knew street parking in phila is a nightmare, so when I bought my house, one of my necessities was off street parking. I bought a house with an alley in the back and a garage in the basement. It was just like living in the suburbs until my boyfriend moved in, took over my garage with his work crap, and insisted that he needed a huge ass SUV so that both vehicles have to really wiggle to fit in the alley driveway. I started parking on the street in front of my house, and there's a major blowup at least once a month if I come home and there's no spots. Parkingis the biggest thing we fight about, it's serious business.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:05 AM on January 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
That said, I always knew street parking in phila is a nightmare, so when I bought my house, one of my necessities was off street parking. I bought a house with an alley in the back and a garage in the basement. It was just like living in the suburbs until my boyfriend moved in, took over my garage with his work crap, and insisted that he needed a huge ass SUV so that both vehicles have to really wiggle to fit in the alley driveway. I started parking on the street in front of my house, and there's a major blowup at least once a month if I come home and there's no spots. Parkingis the biggest thing we fight about, it's serious business.
posted by WeekendJen at 8:05 AM on January 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Born & raised (Germantown Hospital represent!) left in the 90's and never looked back. I had a car for a while in S. Philly, and lived next to one of the few free parking lots in town (a block from the Italian market & Carpenter St. ) it was always a fight to get a spot there so any time you didn't need to drive, you didn't. Going anywhere in town meant parking illegally, honestly there's just no parking. I racked up an impressive amount of parking tickets and lost my license due to failure to pay (I was a self righteous prick). 10 or so years after leaving for the greener pastures of Denver, I finally got over myself and paid those fines. By the time I sent in my money, the statute of limitations had passed and they sent my checks back and cleared my record. I was finally able to drive again. Well, you know, legally. Anyway, parking in Philly sucks.
posted by evilDoug at 11:30 AM on January 25, 2017
posted by evilDoug at 11:30 AM on January 25, 2017
@Lexica thanks for those links; really helpful! I feel as though I've learned from this discussion.
posted by erattacorrige at 4:26 PM on January 25, 2017
posted by erattacorrige at 4:26 PM on January 25, 2017
> 'I've long called the blinking hazard lights on double parked cars "the Philly parking permit."'
In Pittsburgh, we (ok, maybe it's just me) have long called those "park-anywhere lights"....
posted by FlyingMonkey at 1:44 PM on February 1, 2017
In Pittsburgh, we (ok, maybe it's just me) have long called those "park-anywhere lights"....
posted by FlyingMonkey at 1:44 PM on February 1, 2017
« Older Doomsday Prep for the Super Rich | Monsieur le Pepe Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by enn at 8:16 AM on January 24, 2017 [6 favorites]