The Dish
July 19, 2017 10:57 AM Subscribe
Japanese Cheesecake. Chicken Gyros. Deep Dish Pizza. Giant Cookies and Vegan Cinnamon Buns. Every week, Megan Ogilvie of The Toronto Star writes The Dish, where she takes popular local eats to food scientists and dietitians to determine how good (or bad) they are for you. Readers provide suggestions and are often surprised by how many calories they're getting from their favourite food. And in the case of one popular 1.5 lbs roti, the people of Trinidad & Tabago were not amused by the recommendation that Ali's roti is meal for two.
Everyone I know here in town kind of hates this column because it almost always targets delicious guilty pleasures that you know are bad for you, but not that they're an-entire-days-worth-of-calories-and-two-days-worth-of-fat-and-sodium bad for you.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:10 AM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:10 AM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
I always figure that I'd rather eat ZOMG!calories pizza, etc, once every couple of months and eat as much as I want than eat, like, a tiny slice of ZOMG!calories pizza every week.
posted by Frowner at 11:10 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 11:10 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Oh Jesus, why would anyone look up the nutritional value of a deep dish pizza?
posted by dinty_moore at 11:11 AM on July 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by dinty_moore at 11:11 AM on July 19, 2017 [9 favorites]
If you haven't noticed already, the Canadianness of this series really stands out in their comparisons. Deserts get compared to Tim Horton's, dinners to Swiss Chalet.
posted by thecjm at 11:18 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 11:18 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's exceedingly rare that I eat anywhere large enough to post calorie counts, but I always appreciate it, and I wish getting nutritional information for regular menu items were more affordable for smaller restaurants.
Yeah, sometimes I'd still eat too much, but at least I'd know how-much-too-much.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, sometimes I'd still eat too much, but at least I'd know how-much-too-much.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
The people in Trinidad & Tobago in many cases seem to be reacting to something the writer didn't say. She's not saying "don't eat Roti", she's saying "maybe don't eat 1.5lbs of Roti in one sitting."
posted by jacquilynne at 11:27 AM on July 19, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 11:27 AM on July 19, 2017 [12 favorites]
"maybe don't eat 1.5lbs of Roti in one sitting."
heresy
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2017 [24 favorites]
heresy
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:32 AM on July 19, 2017 [24 favorites]
Swanson's "Hungry Man" line of frozen meals used to have this honest, simple tag line: "I know what I like. And I like a lot of it."
Yes.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:34 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Yes.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:34 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
The people in Trinidad & Tobago in many cases seem to be reacting to something the writer didn't say. She's not saying "don't eat Roti", she's saying "maybe don't eat 1.5lbs of Roti in one sitting."
The vibe I got was that saying the roti was too big was somehow arguing against their culture. And yeah when you're working for a living getting a lot of calories from a giant roti for cheap is a good thing.
posted by thecjm at 11:35 AM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
The vibe I got was that saying the roti was too big was somehow arguing against their culture. And yeah when you're working for a living getting a lot of calories from a giant roti for cheap is a good thing.
posted by thecjm at 11:35 AM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm impressed that most people seem to get pretty close in their estimates of the calorie content. The cheesecake submitter actually guessed high and the pizza person was almost spot-on.
posted by mama casserole at 11:36 AM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mama casserole at 11:36 AM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's a whole lot of outrage to hurl at an objective fact.
posted by CaseyB at 11:37 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by CaseyB at 11:37 AM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
getting a lot of calories from a giant roti for cheap is a good thing
Absolutely. But getting an entire day's worth of salt, maybe not so much -- as the owner of the Roti place somewhat sheepishly admits.
posted by The Bellman at 11:38 AM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Absolutely. But getting an entire day's worth of salt, maybe not so much -- as the owner of the Roti place somewhat sheepishly admits.
posted by The Bellman at 11:38 AM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ali's Rotis are also bigger than most of the other ones you get here in Toronto-- as the article itself notes -- so suggesting maybe a bigger than usual Roti is a little too big is hardly an attack on Rotis themselves.
All of this said, now I really want a Buss Up Shot with goat. I wonder if Ali is on UberEats?
posted by jacquilynne at 11:45 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
All of this said, now I really want a Buss Up Shot with goat. I wonder if Ali is on UberEats?
posted by jacquilynne at 11:45 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I do enjoy seeing people get shocked that vegan =/= healthy, especially when the best way to get vegan baked goods to be tasty is to crank the sugar up to 11.
posted by thecjm at 11:46 AM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 11:46 AM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
This is a really nice column. The formula is: description of delicious thing, estimate of calories, discussion of the tested calories, discussion of nutritional impact, suggestion for mitigating impact, suggestion that it's a sometimes food, discussion of results, reminder that the delicious thing has many pros and cons. It's a balanced approach to nutrition that is no real shame-y and still spotlights delicious things in the world. That's really all I want in a review of a takeaway item!
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:51 AM on July 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 11:51 AM on July 19, 2017 [13 favorites]
Overall, love the idea behind these.
As for the roti article specifically, now I reallllly want some roti. My cousin married into a Trinidadian family and makes roti at home, often with Stew(ed) Chicken and it is fantaaaaastic.
posted by rachaelfaith at 11:55 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
As for the roti article specifically, now I reallllly want some roti. My cousin married into a Trinidadian family and makes roti at home, often with Stew(ed) Chicken and it is fantaaaaastic.
posted by rachaelfaith at 11:55 AM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
We've gotten into this habit of thinking that calories = bad. But it should be more like: It's good to have an accurate picture of how many there are in this thing. Maybe you only want to eat half of the thing. Or maybe you're only going to have the thing on special occasions. Or maybe this thing is actually a good pick because of the calories because you need the calories because of athletics or doing very physically taxing work and you're legit one of the people who really needs a good way to get 3000 calories today. There should never be a point where you see a calorie count and think, "I can never have this again." That's the kind of thing that spawns eating disorders.
In the cinnamon bun one, I thought in particular it was handled well: The dietician "doesn't often" indulge but is described as liking cinnamon buns. She doesn't want them to never again sell this thing; she would like a mini version to be available because then it'd be possible to get them more often. I like the idea of talking about this stuff in the context of "how can we make the delicious things a part of our lives in a healthy way".
posted by Sequence at 12:07 PM on July 19, 2017 [26 favorites]
In the cinnamon bun one, I thought in particular it was handled well: The dietician "doesn't often" indulge but is described as liking cinnamon buns. She doesn't want them to never again sell this thing; she would like a mini version to be available because then it'd be possible to get them more often. I like the idea of talking about this stuff in the context of "how can we make the delicious things a part of our lives in a healthy way".
posted by Sequence at 12:07 PM on July 19, 2017 [26 favorites]
I'm amazed that the submitter of the deep dish pizza expected it would be healthier than a normal one. The profile view tells you all you need to know, it's like 50% cheese.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:08 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 12:08 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
There should never be a point where you see a calorie count and think, "I can never have this again." That's the kind of thing that spawns eating disorders.
In fact, this point comes up explicitly in regard to the cheesecake:
“When it comes to dessert, if you are coveting something, it’s always a good idea to give in to the temptation — in reasonable-size amounts,” says registered dietitian Zannat Reza. “Deprivation can, down the road, lead to overeating.”
Anecdotally, this meshes with my own experience. When I've been successful at cutting weight, it's been from reducing portion size more than depriving myself entirely of specific things. (Even at my healthiest weight, I would still occasionally eat a whole pint of ice cream in a sitting. Just not, like, often.)
posted by tobascodagama at 12:11 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
In fact, this point comes up explicitly in regard to the cheesecake:
“When it comes to dessert, if you are coveting something, it’s always a good idea to give in to the temptation — in reasonable-size amounts,” says registered dietitian Zannat Reza. “Deprivation can, down the road, lead to overeating.”
Anecdotally, this meshes with my own experience. When I've been successful at cutting weight, it's been from reducing portion size more than depriving myself entirely of specific things. (Even at my healthiest weight, I would still occasionally eat a whole pint of ice cream in a sitting. Just not, like, often.)
posted by tobascodagama at 12:11 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Right, what matters is 90% of what you eat. If your food is reasonable 90% of the time, you can have a cinnamon bun the size of your head as part of the 10%. And tomorrow is always another day.
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:30 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by blnkfrnk at 12:30 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
We've gotten into this habit of thinking that calories = bad. But it should be more like: It's good to have an accurate picture of how many there are in this thing.
Yep. I'm diabetic, so this is my actual life: I need to know what's in whatever I'm eating. Everybody else should pay attention to that too, and use it to make informed decisions for themselves about when and how they want to have luxuries. Not like 'ohgod I can't ever have pizza look at that score,' more like 'how often should I have deep dish pizza?'
Anecdotally, this meshes with my own experience. When I've been successful at cutting weight, it's been from reducing portion size more than depriving myself entirely of specific things.
Likewise. The single most important purchase I made for my health was just a food scale. Being able to say 'I can have this much ice cream' worked a whole lot better than 'I'm going to try to never eat ice cream again.'
posted by mordax at 12:36 PM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
Yep. I'm diabetic, so this is my actual life: I need to know what's in whatever I'm eating. Everybody else should pay attention to that too, and use it to make informed decisions for themselves about when and how they want to have luxuries. Not like 'ohgod I can't ever have pizza look at that score,' more like 'how often should I have deep dish pizza?'
Anecdotally, this meshes with my own experience. When I've been successful at cutting weight, it's been from reducing portion size more than depriving myself entirely of specific things.
Likewise. The single most important purchase I made for my health was just a food scale. Being able to say 'I can have this much ice cream' worked a whole lot better than 'I'm going to try to never eat ice cream again.'
posted by mordax at 12:36 PM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
I went through and read the one about the vegan sweet potato date muffin that is about 1000 calories, which surprised both the writer and the consumer. It seems likely to me, as someone who bakes vegan things a lot, that the muffin contains lots and lots of dates - and dates are incredibly calorie-dense. Also, vegan baked goods tend, themselves, to be rather dense - a softball-sized muffin which would contain more air if baked with eggs and better leavening is all flour/sugar/dates/etc if vegan. And a lot of vegan baked goods use oil/vinegar for binding and leavening, further raising the calories. I myself make a very tasty vegan sweet potato muffin - smaller, without the dates and using granulated sugar rather than a syrup, so a bit lower-calorie.
Again, it just seems like the solution for most people is to cook more at home, or to eat more assemble-at-home meals like salads and stir fries, and to have richer restaurant meals a couple of times a month rather than a couple of times a week.
posted by Frowner at 12:37 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Again, it just seems like the solution for most people is to cook more at home, or to eat more assemble-at-home meals like salads and stir fries, and to have richer restaurant meals a couple of times a month rather than a couple of times a week.
posted by Frowner at 12:37 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
(I mean, most people who are buying gourmet muffins regularly are, I assume, not under the same financial pressures as someone who is buying the $1 McDonald's menu regularly. These seem far more like "I'm having treats very often" than "I am pressed for time and money so I grab fast food".)
posted by Frowner at 12:50 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 12:50 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
There's something disrespectful about comparing a delicious, complex, lovingly handcrafted roti to 28 chicken mcnuggets. Especially when you can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word.
posted by sea change at 12:55 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by sea change at 12:55 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
The point is to compare them to well-known dishes that most people have tried or at least have a sense of the nutritional data for. Comparing one lovingly handcrafted fast food dish to another lovingly handcrafted fast food dish that they don't know much about doesn't really help people learn to assess nutritional impact.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:03 PM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:03 PM on July 19, 2017 [6 favorites]
I do enjoy seeing people get shocked that vegan =/= healthy, especially when the best way to get vegan baked goods to be tasty is to crank the sugar up to 11.
Dammit, there went my best diet plan ever.
posted by corb at 1:03 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Dammit, there went my best diet plan ever.
posted by corb at 1:03 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
What people are losing sight of here is that Ali's goat roti is a boneless abomination, and Roti Lady moved to Scarborough, so that's not an option.
Glory of India has a good goat roti that's not on the menu. Also, Ali's duck roti is amazing.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Glory of India has a good goat roti that's not on the menu. Also, Ali's duck roti is amazing.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
> If you haven't noticed already, the Canadianness of this series really stands out in their comparisons. Deserts get compared to Tim Horton's, dinners to Swiss Chalet.
My wife commented that one of the other commonly-used units of measurement in this column is Big Macs, which has the perverse effect of making Big Macs seem healthy by comparison.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:16 PM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
My wife commented that one of the other commonly-used units of measurement in this column is Big Macs, which has the perverse effect of making Big Macs seem healthy by comparison.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:16 PM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's something disrespectful about comparing a delicious, complex, lovingly handcrafted roti to 28 chicken mcnuggets. Especially when you can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word.
I guess that is what bothers me most about the whole 'backlash': What is possibly disrespectful in saying that a popular dish has 1600 calories in it, and maybe should be cut in half?
I guess I can see
"Who are you to judge how many calories I eat in a single sitting? You don't know me!" as a valid response.....but how in the world is it disrespectful to anyone to give a calorie count?
How does a 'handcrafted' dish's calories differ from a chicken nugget's calories? I mean, we can certainly talk about hydrogenated oiils, freshness, processing, etc and the help benefits of each..
But if someone jsut wants to know how much fat, carbs, protein, sugar and overall calories are in something....how does a 'loving preparation' change those numbers? And how is presenting them 'disrespectful'?
posted by das_2099 at 1:16 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I guess that is what bothers me most about the whole 'backlash': What is possibly disrespectful in saying that a popular dish has 1600 calories in it, and maybe should be cut in half?
I guess I can see
"Who are you to judge how many calories I eat in a single sitting? You don't know me!" as a valid response.....but how in the world is it disrespectful to anyone to give a calorie count?
How does a 'handcrafted' dish's calories differ from a chicken nugget's calories? I mean, we can certainly talk about hydrogenated oiils, freshness, processing, etc and the help benefits of each..
But if someone jsut wants to know how much fat, carbs, protein, sugar and overall calories are in something....how does a 'loving preparation' change those numbers? And how is presenting them 'disrespectful'?
posted by das_2099 at 1:16 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
> Especially when you can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word.
There is zero difference between the pronunciation of roti and roadie in the speech of the vast majority of North American English speakers; both are effectively /rodi/. If you think you say (for example) leader differently from liter, you are probably fooling yourself. And in any case, "can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word" is a dangerous weapon to wield, because I am absolutely sure you (like everyone else) pronounce all sorts of borrowed words "wrong" (in the sense of "not how those to whom it is native pronounce it"), and if you wouldn't want someone sneering at you about it, you shouldn't sneer at others on those grounds.
Also, roti is goddam delicious.
posted by languagehat at 1:22 PM on July 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
There is zero difference between the pronunciation of roti and roadie in the speech of the vast majority of North American English speakers; both are effectively /rodi/. If you think you say (for example) leader differently from liter, you are probably fooling yourself. And in any case, "can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word" is a dangerous weapon to wield, because I am absolutely sure you (like everyone else) pronounce all sorts of borrowed words "wrong" (in the sense of "not how those to whom it is native pronounce it"), and if you wouldn't want someone sneering at you about it, you shouldn't sneer at others on those grounds.
Also, roti is goddam delicious.
posted by languagehat at 1:22 PM on July 19, 2017 [21 favorites]
Roti is an exception to that rule. It is pronounced "RO TEE", always, regardless of how you pronounce leader or litre or what have you. There is a difference between white north american nativists complaining about mispronunciation of English and French words and people of colour who would like their language respected.
posted by sea change at 1:26 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by sea change at 1:26 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Personally I do see a difference between something that provides flavour and nutrition and has a cultural heritage vs something that has none of the above. They could have chosen any chicken based dish in the city and they chose the absolutely most revolting one. Why not choose something to compare it to that isn't actual hot garbage? It's insulting.
posted by sea change at 1:32 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sea change at 1:32 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Roti is an exception to that rule.
No, I'm sorry, that is not an invented "book rule" like "never end a sentence with a preposition," it is an actual fact about English pronunciation. When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation. Again, you might restrain your indignation by considering that there are doubtless words originally used by people of colo(u)r that you yourself "mispronounce." Language is not a branch of morality.
posted by languagehat at 1:34 PM on July 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
No, I'm sorry, that is not an invented "book rule" like "never end a sentence with a preposition," it is an actual fact about English pronunciation. When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation. Again, you might restrain your indignation by considering that there are doubtless words originally used by people of colo(u)r that you yourself "mispronounce." Language is not a branch of morality.
posted by languagehat at 1:34 PM on July 19, 2017 [16 favorites]
Cool, I'll go tell every Caribbean person in the city who's ever me as well as all the non-Caribbean people who have ever walked into a roti shop that they're lying about their pronunciation of "roti" and that they secretly pronounce it "roadie" when they're not in my presence.
...Most people manage to get it right. Roti.
posted by sea change at 1:38 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
...Most people manage to get it right. Roti.
posted by sea change at 1:38 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
I would say maybe half to two thirds of the people I know in Toronto pronounce Roti as a foreign word, respecting pronunciation and the rest pronounce it as an English word, where frankly, in this town, you're lucky if anyone pronounces a non-initial T at all.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:42 PM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 1:42 PM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Here is the chicken McNugget comparison in full. It compares the Roti to 3 different chicken based dishes that would be familiar to the readers. It also clearly states that they are only comparing the calories and not the taste.
How does it stack up (calorie-wise, not necessarily taste-wise) to other chicken meals? The roti is the calorie-equivalent of eating 3-1/2 Harvey’s grilled chicken sandwiches garnished with lettuce, tomato and mayonnaise. It’s also the same as eating 28 Chicken McNuggets from McDonald’s.
For a whole meal comparison, consider that Swiss Chalet’s quarter chicken dinner (the white meat option) served with a multi-grain roll and a loaded baked potato has 780 calories, 25 grams of fat and 880 milligrams of sodium — that’s 400 fewer calories than what’s found in the roti.
I get that you might not like McDonalds but tons of people in the city do and 28 chicken McNuggets is a pretty good way to describe how many calories are in the roti.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:42 PM on July 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
How does it stack up (calorie-wise, not necessarily taste-wise) to other chicken meals? The roti is the calorie-equivalent of eating 3-1/2 Harvey’s grilled chicken sandwiches garnished with lettuce, tomato and mayonnaise. It’s also the same as eating 28 Chicken McNuggets from McDonald’s.
For a whole meal comparison, consider that Swiss Chalet’s quarter chicken dinner (the white meat option) served with a multi-grain roll and a loaded baked potato has 780 calories, 25 grams of fat and 880 milligrams of sodium — that’s 400 fewer calories than what’s found in the roti.
I get that you might not like McDonalds but tons of people in the city do and 28 chicken McNuggets is a pretty good way to describe how many calories are in the roti.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:42 PM on July 19, 2017 [8 favorites]
In T'ronoh most people pronounce it roh-tea.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:02 PM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by [expletive deleted] at 2:02 PM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
is it 28 regular mcnuggets or 28 of the boot-shaped ones, or are we assuming an even distribution of shapes
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:33 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:33 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Proving it's an incredibly small world, the baker of the vegan date muffin is a good friend of mine. Unfairly, his husband remains thin as a rake. It's probably a good thing that I only get to eat his food occasionally.
posted by ilana at 2:36 PM on July 19, 2017
posted by ilana at 2:36 PM on July 19, 2017
sea change
They could have chosen any chicken based dish in the city and they chose the absolutely most revolting one. Why not choose something to compare it to that isn't actual hot garbage? It's insulting.
Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Are you angry at the selection of Roti as a dish? Can you explain the insulting, hot garbage point? I was trying to follow your conversation with languagehat, but lost your meaning at this point.
Thanks.
posted by Telf at 4:29 PM on July 19, 2017
They could have chosen any chicken based dish in the city and they chose the absolutely most revolting one. Why not choose something to compare it to that isn't actual hot garbage? It's insulting.
Sorry, I don't understand your point here. Are you angry at the selection of Roti as a dish? Can you explain the insulting, hot garbage point? I was trying to follow your conversation with languagehat, but lost your meaning at this point.
Thanks.
posted by Telf at 4:29 PM on July 19, 2017
There is a difference between white north american nativists complaining about mispronunciation of English and French words and people of colour who would like their language respected.
I'd suggest that while their ability to enforce and normalize their preference is different, the fundamental origin of the impulse is the same.
(Also I'm willing to skip breakfast and keep lunch light in order to justify putting that entire roti thing in my face at one sitting. Anything with that typical West Indian flavor palette is straight comfort food for me.)
posted by bracems at 4:51 PM on July 19, 2017
I'd suggest that while their ability to enforce and normalize their preference is different, the fundamental origin of the impulse is the same.
(Also I'm willing to skip breakfast and keep lunch light in order to justify putting that entire roti thing in my face at one sitting. Anything with that typical West Indian flavor palette is straight comfort food for me.)
posted by bracems at 4:51 PM on July 19, 2017
Again, you might restrain your indignation by considering that there are doubtless words originally used by people of colo(u)r that you yourself "mispronounce." Language is not a branch of morality.
Except language is often used as such, isn't it - in terms of pronunciation, vocabulary, accents? And often used by white people to discriminate, judge and classify PoC - whether subtly or overtly, officially or informally.
You know what? People of color mispronouncing English (including words of non-English origin that have been integrated into English) unintentionally is NOT the same as white people mangling people of color's languages. Same way cultural appropriation works - you don't get to say a PoC is "appropriating" your white culture when you are higher up on the socio-racial hierarchy, and when your culture/race has had a history of appropriating their culture for its own benefit and profit.
I can understand if white people mispronounce "roti" as "roadie" unintentionally. But to insist, in this thread, that you are deliberately going to keep on pronouncing it in the white americanized way, despite knowing that so many PoC (in the article, and in this thread) protest? Wow.
If I knew that I was mispronouncing a word belonging to a PoC's language, I'd try to actually learn and use the correct pronunciation - the way it's pronounced in the PoC's language. It's pretty ugly to see sea change, a PoC, being told to "restrain [her] indignation" because she is probably unintentionally mispronouncing words herself.
posted by aielen at 4:52 PM on July 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
Except language is often used as such, isn't it - in terms of pronunciation, vocabulary, accents? And often used by white people to discriminate, judge and classify PoC - whether subtly or overtly, officially or informally.
You know what? People of color mispronouncing English (including words of non-English origin that have been integrated into English) unintentionally is NOT the same as white people mangling people of color's languages. Same way cultural appropriation works - you don't get to say a PoC is "appropriating" your white culture when you are higher up on the socio-racial hierarchy, and when your culture/race has had a history of appropriating their culture for its own benefit and profit.
I can understand if white people mispronounce "roti" as "roadie" unintentionally. But to insist, in this thread, that you are deliberately going to keep on pronouncing it in the white americanized way, despite knowing that so many PoC (in the article, and in this thread) protest? Wow.
If I knew that I was mispronouncing a word belonging to a PoC's language, I'd try to actually learn and use the correct pronunciation - the way it's pronounced in the PoC's language. It's pretty ugly to see sea change, a PoC, being told to "restrain [her] indignation" because she is probably unintentionally mispronouncing words herself.
posted by aielen at 4:52 PM on July 19, 2017 [7 favorites]
On the pronunciation thing: what I took languagehat to be saying in his first comment was more "because of the way you have grown up pronouncing and hearing phonemes, you will be giving it your best shot and still pronouncing it 'roadie' while thinking you're saying it 'roti'". For instance, I was trying to say 'leader' and 'liter' and I noticed that if I pay very careful attention and over-enunciate, I can say them differently, but most of the time I think I'm saying them differently but am not. (I mostly paid attention to where my tongue was hitting on the roof of my mouth.) Or like the class tells that Paul Fussell describes - saying "luxury" as "luck-zhury" versus saying "lugzhury". It's hard to switch from one to the other.
So I mean, there's careless mispronunciation that people should obviously strive to correct, but there's also probably some limits on how good a job you can do correcting the fine mouth movements that you learned in childhood, and it seems like to a certain degree "using the correct word, not making obvious pronunciation mistakes and being polite" might be all one could ask.
Also, if you don't use a word a lot, you may find it really hard to get right! For instance, I know how to say "guerilla", but I told someone some anecdote about US imperialism and "girlilla" warfare the other week, because I don't speak Spanish and read that word far more than I say it, and it came out the way I read it to myself. I would hate it - and actually find it sort of unfair - if someone heard me mispronounce a word and assumed that I was doing it out of racial hostility.
There's also a little bit of class marker in this - if you're working class, you may well have a larger reading vocabulary than pronouncing vocabulary, because you're not routinely around people who talk of obelisks and guerillas and Michael Foucault. There are plenty of times when I want to order a food in a restaurant and I stumble over pronouncing it, not because I want to be hostile to people, but just because I say that word a few times a year and rarely hear it spoken.
The other thing is, at least where I grew up it was not really appropriate to try to pronounce words the way a native speaker would say them, because that was...sort of setting yourself up as their linguistic equal? Like if I started talking about how I, a white person with no tradition of tamale-making in my immediate family or community, make these great authentic tamales, it would seems really arrogant and culturally appropriative, and the way I grew up, it would also have seemed weird and culturally appropriative to make a big production out of how Anglo you pronounce all these things "authentically", as if you were showing off a form of mastery.
I'm not trying to say "don't bother to try to say things correctly", more that there's a lot more to how people pronounce things than perhaps it first appears.
posted by Frowner at 5:27 PM on July 19, 2017 [18 favorites]
So I mean, there's careless mispronunciation that people should obviously strive to correct, but there's also probably some limits on how good a job you can do correcting the fine mouth movements that you learned in childhood, and it seems like to a certain degree "using the correct word, not making obvious pronunciation mistakes and being polite" might be all one could ask.
Also, if you don't use a word a lot, you may find it really hard to get right! For instance, I know how to say "guerilla", but I told someone some anecdote about US imperialism and "girlilla" warfare the other week, because I don't speak Spanish and read that word far more than I say it, and it came out the way I read it to myself. I would hate it - and actually find it sort of unfair - if someone heard me mispronounce a word and assumed that I was doing it out of racial hostility.
There's also a little bit of class marker in this - if you're working class, you may well have a larger reading vocabulary than pronouncing vocabulary, because you're not routinely around people who talk of obelisks and guerillas and Michael Foucault. There are plenty of times when I want to order a food in a restaurant and I stumble over pronouncing it, not because I want to be hostile to people, but just because I say that word a few times a year and rarely hear it spoken.
The other thing is, at least where I grew up it was not really appropriate to try to pronounce words the way a native speaker would say them, because that was...sort of setting yourself up as their linguistic equal? Like if I started talking about how I, a white person with no tradition of tamale-making in my immediate family or community, make these great authentic tamales, it would seems really arrogant and culturally appropriative, and the way I grew up, it would also have seemed weird and culturally appropriative to make a big production out of how Anglo you pronounce all these things "authentically", as if you were showing off a form of mastery.
I'm not trying to say "don't bother to try to say things correctly", more that there's a lot more to how people pronounce things than perhaps it first appears.
posted by Frowner at 5:27 PM on July 19, 2017 [18 favorites]
Saying "guerilla" like "gorilla" is perfectly cromulent standard American English. I suppose saying it as "gehrilla" might be a higher status marker? If you'd said it as "blah blah gaire-eeh-yah warfare" you'd have just looked a little foolish, just like if you'd pronounced "vagina" as wah-ghee-nah.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:52 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:52 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Frowner, I understand what you're trying to say - and as I mentioned in my comment, I can understand if people mispronounce words unintentionally. What I find troubling is the content of languagehat's second follow-up comment, which I quoted and referred to in my earlier comment:
> Roti is an exception to that rule.
>>No, I'm sorry, that is not an invented "book rule" like "never end a sentence with a preposition," it is an actual fact about English pronunciation. When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation. Again, you might restrain your indignation by considering that there are doubtless words originally used by people of colo(u)r that you yourself "mispronounce." Language is not a branch of morality.
Of course people will unintentionally pronounce words! And like you suggested, and as I also agree, people should not be judged for unintentional mispronunciations. We all unintentionally mispronounce words, even when we are consciously trying not to. But this is very different from a non-PoC talking about pronunciation rules and insisting to a PoC (and PoC community) that their pronunciation is merely how they "think" it should be pronounced.
The other thing is, at least where I grew up it was not really appropriate to try to pronounce words the way a native speaker would say them, because that was...sort of setting yourself up as their linguistic equal?
I get this - but at the same time, in the article and in this thread, there are PoC saying that they would prefer the genuine pronunciation instead of the white americanized pronunciation. Given this immediate information, it seems reasonable and respectful to acquiesce in some way in this thread at least (or at least not tell them "When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation").
Like I said, I understand we all unintentionally mispronounce words, all the time. But that's not the issue - I think intent, tone and attitude is more the issue here. It's jarring to see a white male MeFite address a PoC woman here in this thread lecturing her on what he does (and doesn't) define as language rules for a PoC word.
posted by aielen at 5:56 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Roti is an exception to that rule.
>>No, I'm sorry, that is not an invented "book rule" like "never end a sentence with a preposition," it is an actual fact about English pronunciation. When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation. Again, you might restrain your indignation by considering that there are doubtless words originally used by people of colo(u)r that you yourself "mispronounce." Language is not a branch of morality.
Of course people will unintentionally pronounce words! And like you suggested, and as I also agree, people should not be judged for unintentional mispronunciations. We all unintentionally mispronounce words, even when we are consciously trying not to. But this is very different from a non-PoC talking about pronunciation rules and insisting to a PoC (and PoC community) that their pronunciation is merely how they "think" it should be pronounced.
The other thing is, at least where I grew up it was not really appropriate to try to pronounce words the way a native speaker would say them, because that was...sort of setting yourself up as their linguistic equal?
I get this - but at the same time, in the article and in this thread, there are PoC saying that they would prefer the genuine pronunciation instead of the white americanized pronunciation. Given this immediate information, it seems reasonable and respectful to acquiesce in some way in this thread at least (or at least not tell them "When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation").
Like I said, I understand we all unintentionally mispronounce words, all the time. But that's not the issue - I think intent, tone and attitude is more the issue here. It's jarring to see a white male MeFite address a PoC woman here in this thread lecturing her on what he does (and doesn't) define as language rules for a PoC word.
posted by aielen at 5:56 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Languagehat is just saying that in Canadian English, "roti" is pronounced however anglophone Canadians say "roti," even if that's different than how Trinidadians pronounce it.
At the same time, anglophone Canadians' casual disregard for how Trinidadians pronounce it isn't just some boring, neutral fact that nobody should care about.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:35 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
At the same time, anglophone Canadians' casual disregard for how Trinidadians pronounce it isn't just some boring, neutral fact that nobody should care about.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:35 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think what I'm trying to convey is, "is it a 'mispronunciation' if I have a strong Midwestern accent and say all my a's weird, including when I say 'ratatouille' or something"?
I took several years of mandarin and lived in coastal China for a couple of years, and not only do I have an American accent but there are several tonal things I just have terrible trouble doing right. And I end up most of the time with this weird mid-Atlantic accent where I've lost the US pronunciation but don't say it right in Chinese. Like, I'll mess up really pretty simple words sometimes. My point is that there is, like, a literal limit to how well I'm going to pronounce Chinese words, and that has to do more with accent and speech patterns than anything I can consciously control, even with study and practice. So what I'm wondering is, what is a reasonable expectation for how we pronounce words that contain stresses or phonemes we didn't grow up with? And when does a mispronunciation slip over into a regionalism? Like, saying "Peking" for "Beijing" is a kind of mispronunciation and using the wrong word, combined, and no one should do it. But what about saying "Shaaaaanghai" like native English speakers usually do versus "SHANG-hai" with the correct tones like it is in Mandarin, or sort of a "S[h]ang-hai" like Shanghai people say it? Is Shaaaaaanghai a mispronunciation, and if so, is it a mispronunciation for SHANG-hai or for S[h]ang-hai?
posted by Frowner at 6:38 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
I took several years of mandarin and lived in coastal China for a couple of years, and not only do I have an American accent but there are several tonal things I just have terrible trouble doing right. And I end up most of the time with this weird mid-Atlantic accent where I've lost the US pronunciation but don't say it right in Chinese. Like, I'll mess up really pretty simple words sometimes. My point is that there is, like, a literal limit to how well I'm going to pronounce Chinese words, and that has to do more with accent and speech patterns than anything I can consciously control, even with study and practice. So what I'm wondering is, what is a reasonable expectation for how we pronounce words that contain stresses or phonemes we didn't grow up with? And when does a mispronunciation slip over into a regionalism? Like, saying "Peking" for "Beijing" is a kind of mispronunciation and using the wrong word, combined, and no one should do it. But what about saying "Shaaaaanghai" like native English speakers usually do versus "SHANG-hai" with the correct tones like it is in Mandarin, or sort of a "S[h]ang-hai" like Shanghai people say it? Is Shaaaaaanghai a mispronunciation, and if so, is it a mispronunciation for SHANG-hai or for S[h]ang-hai?
posted by Frowner at 6:38 PM on July 19, 2017 [2 favorites]
Here is a documentary film about your quandary...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:50 PM on July 19, 2017
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:50 PM on July 19, 2017
So what I'm wondering is, what is a reasonable expectation for how we pronounce words that contain stresses or phonemes we didn't grow up with? And when does a mispronunciation slip over into a regionalism?
Personally I think the margin for error for a "reasonable expectation" should be very wide - some people just aren't able to pick up sounds/languages well. But this is kind of sidetracking and ignoring the original issue that I pointed out.
And when does a mispronunciation slip over into a regionalism?
The article notes that Canadian-Trinidadians objected to the "roadie" pronunciation. If Canadian-Trinidadians are pronouncing roti as roti, I think there's less case to call it a regionalism.
Regarding the "Shanghai" example...
Put it this way - I think many more Chinese people would see a microaggression in a white person telling a Chinese person that the "SHANG-hai" (Mandarin-style) pronunciation is merely how they "think" it should be pronounced.
Threads like these remind me why Metafilter really, really needs a PoC mod. And why more PoC and international Mefites have been leaving, and why there is very little incentive for PoC/internationals to sign up for an account. Racial microaggressions and racist behavior aren't usually overt like how you imagine. The ones that sting, and accumulate, are much subtler and cut much deeper as they pile up. They may not be immediately recognizable (and I feel that having a PoC mod would help in identifying and moderating this stuff), especially to those who are not immediately affected/targeted. But if PoC are speaking up, and saying that something bothers them, I hope that Mefites can at least listen, learn and treat these voices with the consideration they deserve.
posted by aielen at 7:20 PM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
Personally I think the margin for error for a "reasonable expectation" should be very wide - some people just aren't able to pick up sounds/languages well. But this is kind of sidetracking and ignoring the original issue that I pointed out.
And when does a mispronunciation slip over into a regionalism?
The article notes that Canadian-Trinidadians objected to the "roadie" pronunciation. If Canadian-Trinidadians are pronouncing roti as roti, I think there's less case to call it a regionalism.
Regarding the "Shanghai" example...
Put it this way - I think many more Chinese people would see a microaggression in a white person telling a Chinese person that the "SHANG-hai" (Mandarin-style) pronunciation is merely how they "think" it should be pronounced.
Threads like these remind me why Metafilter really, really needs a PoC mod. And why more PoC and international Mefites have been leaving, and why there is very little incentive for PoC/internationals to sign up for an account. Racial microaggressions and racist behavior aren't usually overt like how you imagine. The ones that sting, and accumulate, are much subtler and cut much deeper as they pile up. They may not be immediately recognizable (and I feel that having a PoC mod would help in identifying and moderating this stuff), especially to those who are not immediately affected/targeted. But if PoC are speaking up, and saying that something bothers them, I hope that Mefites can at least listen, learn and treat these voices with the consideration they deserve.
posted by aielen at 7:20 PM on July 19, 2017 [5 favorites]
→ Roti Lady moved to Scarborough
Five minutes' walk from my house now. It is very, very good.
posted by scruss at 7:27 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Five minutes' walk from my house now. It is very, very good.
posted by scruss at 7:27 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Look, can we stop arguing about the correct pronunciation of "roti" in Toronto, and get back to what's really important?
Dhal puri, or the other kind?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:10 PM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Dhal puri, or the other kind?
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:10 PM on July 19, 2017 [3 favorites]
Vegan Cinnamon Bun = 16 teaspoons of sugar??? 41 g of fat?? WTF.
Calling this "vegan" is like calling a grenade user-friendly. It may be true, but it's not the most important thing you need to know.
posted by storybored at 9:02 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Calling this "vegan" is like calling a grenade user-friendly. It may be true, but it's not the most important thing you need to know.
posted by storybored at 9:02 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
non-vegan cinnamon buns probably have the same amount of sugar and fat and if you're very sensitive to dairy or you don't eat eggs then yeah, the vegan bit is kind of important. I know that people try to associate veganism with healthiness but vegan baked goods are just like any other baked good, not all that healthy for you.
Also:
Especially when you can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word.
Where did this even come from in this thread? Are there actual Torontonians who don't know how to pronounce "roti"...
oh. ok, I never watch the videos. OK. I see. That's awkward. I have a reflex to defend Ogilvie but in her gyro review she actually Greeks up her pronunciation of "gyro" which makes her off-the-mark "roti" worse than it might otherwise be. Hopefully someone sets her straight.
At any rate I was a Ghandi's customer and their rotis seemed at least as big as that one if not bigger. It is a heck of a meal.
posted by GuyZero at 11:00 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also:
Especially when you can't even be bothered to learn how to pronounce the word.
Where did this even come from in this thread? Are there actual Torontonians who don't know how to pronounce "roti"...
oh. ok, I never watch the videos. OK. I see. That's awkward. I have a reflex to defend Ogilvie but in her gyro review she actually Greeks up her pronunciation of "gyro" which makes her off-the-mark "roti" worse than it might otherwise be. Hopefully someone sets her straight.
At any rate I was a Ghandi's customer and their rotis seemed at least as big as that one if not bigger. It is a heck of a meal.
posted by GuyZero at 11:00 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
And to add to that...
There is zero difference between the pronunciation of roti and roadie in the speech of the vast majority of North American English speakers; both are effectively /rodi/.
languagehat, I am really loathe to contradict you as I have a lot of respect for all your contributions over the years here but no. As an anglo Canadian, Ogilvie is straight up pronouncing the word wrong. And believe me, I know anglo Canadians. I know lots of them. I have eaten roti with plenty of them. (and fwiw anglo in this context doesn't mean exclusively white) And I've never heard one pronounce the word like she does.
posted by GuyZero at 11:06 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is zero difference between the pronunciation of roti and roadie in the speech of the vast majority of North American English speakers; both are effectively /rodi/.
languagehat, I am really loathe to contradict you as I have a lot of respect for all your contributions over the years here but no. As an anglo Canadian, Ogilvie is straight up pronouncing the word wrong. And believe me, I know anglo Canadians. I know lots of them. I have eaten roti with plenty of them. (and fwiw anglo in this context doesn't mean exclusively white) And I've never heard one pronounce the word like she does.
posted by GuyZero at 11:06 PM on July 19, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am a Trinidadian who hates social media. Thank god for this thread. Finally I understand why, for a while there, anytime I brought roti home, the Youth I live with would gasp, "Excuse me? I think you mean roadie?" "Mmm," I always replied, feigning wisdom. I only hope Metafilter can continue to explain wtf is going on in my house/country to me.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 11:24 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 11:24 PM on July 19, 2017 [4 favorites]
Language is not a branch of morality.
No, but that hardly makes language--and, especially, pronunciation and accent--politically neutral. In Canada, as elsewhere, discrimination based on a failure to conform to majority norms of pronunciation is a thing. You can fail to get a job because you say "roadie" like an Iranian or an Indian, instead of with a Canadian accent. In that wider cultural context, if you are then told that you are making up your native pronunciation of roti and real Canadians neither can nor should follow you, even on that one word, it can feel a bit exasperating. How far do you have to bend to fit in? Is the majority culture not supposed to bend even a little?
One of my distant relatives who came to the UK in the 1960s was told to change her name to something easier to pronounce, as a condition of employment. Her name is Sarojam; she spent a couple of decades introducing herself to people as Sheila. I think that her employer's decision was a political act, to do with power and disparities of power, not a pure linguistic accommodation. It's true that it's unlikely that an English person would ever have been able to say "Sarojam" like an Indian. But the calm refusal to even try is the issue, especially given how asymmetric the relationship is (of course my relative had to work hard to pronounce English words differently, more like the English, to get ahead in her job.) I think that is what the other PoC in this thread are getting at. There's a history behind accent suppression and modification and there's something infuriating about being told, when you come out of that history, that it's actually impossible to change how you pronounce one word and no one should have to try.
posted by Aravis76 at 12:45 AM on July 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
No, but that hardly makes language--and, especially, pronunciation and accent--politically neutral. In Canada, as elsewhere, discrimination based on a failure to conform to majority norms of pronunciation is a thing. You can fail to get a job because you say "roadie" like an Iranian or an Indian, instead of with a Canadian accent. In that wider cultural context, if you are then told that you are making up your native pronunciation of roti and real Canadians neither can nor should follow you, even on that one word, it can feel a bit exasperating. How far do you have to bend to fit in? Is the majority culture not supposed to bend even a little?
One of my distant relatives who came to the UK in the 1960s was told to change her name to something easier to pronounce, as a condition of employment. Her name is Sarojam; she spent a couple of decades introducing herself to people as Sheila. I think that her employer's decision was a political act, to do with power and disparities of power, not a pure linguistic accommodation. It's true that it's unlikely that an English person would ever have been able to say "Sarojam" like an Indian. But the calm refusal to even try is the issue, especially given how asymmetric the relationship is (of course my relative had to work hard to pronounce English words differently, more like the English, to get ahead in her job.) I think that is what the other PoC in this thread are getting at. There's a history behind accent suppression and modification and there's something infuriating about being told, when you come out of that history, that it's actually impossible to change how you pronounce one word and no one should have to try.
posted by Aravis76 at 12:45 AM on July 20, 2017 [9 favorites]
→ Dhal puri, or the other kind?
I used to be 100% Team Paratha, but now have realized that dhal puri works really well with more dry fillings. So if I can get paratha with a wet, gravy-style curry, I'm happy.
Both, of course, are no match to the Chettinad parotta, which contains more ghee than is frankly good for anyone, and so is consequently the best.
posted by scruss at 7:32 AM on July 20, 2017
I used to be 100% Team Paratha, but now have realized that dhal puri works really well with more dry fillings. So if I can get paratha with a wet, gravy-style curry, I'm happy.
Both, of course, are no match to the Chettinad parotta, which contains more ghee than is frankly good for anyone, and so is consequently the best.
posted by scruss at 7:32 AM on July 20, 2017
> languagehat, I am really loathe to contradict you as I have a lot of respect for all your contributions over the years here but no. As an anglo Canadian, Ogilvie is straight up pronouncing the word wrong. And believe me, I know anglo Canadians. I know lots of them. I have eaten roti with plenty of them. (and fwiw anglo in this context doesn't mean exclusively white) And I've never heard one pronounce the word like she does.
All I can suggest is that you presumably move in circles where people try and pronounce words according to the patterns of the people from whose dialect/language they came. Which is fine! I have no problem with that whatever... as long as it doesn't turn into slagging people who pronounce it in the way that is natural to them as speakers of English. I listened to the clip and the way she says "roti" is exactly the way I say it and the way I always heard it in New York, except from people who did not speak standard English. There is nothing wrong with either way of saying it.
> In Canada, as elsewhere, discrimination based on a failure to conform to majority norms of pronunciation is a thing. You can fail to get a job because you say "roadie" like an Iranian or an Indian, instead of with a Canadian accent.
That is, of course, terrible, and I sure hope it changes. You should not be discriminated against for saying words in the way that is natural to you. And you should also not be mocked or yelled at for saying words in the way that is natural to you. Again, there is nothing wrong with either way of saying it.
> There's a history behind accent suppression and modification and there's something infuriating about being told, when you come out of that history, that it's actually impossible to change how you pronounce one word and no one should have to try.
But it is not "one word." Do you think "roti" is the only word for which this is an issue? Every bit of language taken from another source is going to have this kind of problem (when people make it a problem); that's why there was a thing back in the '80s where progressive people made a point of saying "Nee-cah-RRRAH-guah" when speaking English, often with hilariously bad approximations of actual Spanish pronunciation. If I had the time and wanted to take the trouble to go through the MeFi archives, I could provide you with a daunting number of examples of people complaining that other people aren't saying or using borrowed words right, or aren't using the words that other people think are the best words. It is, if you give it a moment's thought, absurd and impossible to insist that everyone use everyone else's words in the exact way that will be acceptable to everyone. I'll bet you don't say Khrushchev in a way that would be acceptable to a Russian, and (in case you're going to pull the "oh, Russians are white and not discriminated against so it doesn't count" card) I'm even more sure that you don't say Ngugi wa Thiong'o in a way that would be acceptable to a Kenyan (unless, of course, you yourself are Kenyan, in which case I've got a whole sackful of other examples I can toss at you).
Trying to force everyone else to conform to some imagined ideal of perfect pronunciation or usage is a mug's game and a waste of time; it's part of what I call "performative progressivism," and it's one of the things that tires me out when I read MetaFilter. Can't we all just concentrate on defeating the bad guys rather than policing each other's pronunciation?
posted by languagehat at 8:22 AM on July 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
All I can suggest is that you presumably move in circles where people try and pronounce words according to the patterns of the people from whose dialect/language they came. Which is fine! I have no problem with that whatever... as long as it doesn't turn into slagging people who pronounce it in the way that is natural to them as speakers of English. I listened to the clip and the way she says "roti" is exactly the way I say it and the way I always heard it in New York, except from people who did not speak standard English. There is nothing wrong with either way of saying it.
> In Canada, as elsewhere, discrimination based on a failure to conform to majority norms of pronunciation is a thing. You can fail to get a job because you say "roadie" like an Iranian or an Indian, instead of with a Canadian accent.
That is, of course, terrible, and I sure hope it changes. You should not be discriminated against for saying words in the way that is natural to you. And you should also not be mocked or yelled at for saying words in the way that is natural to you. Again, there is nothing wrong with either way of saying it.
> There's a history behind accent suppression and modification and there's something infuriating about being told, when you come out of that history, that it's actually impossible to change how you pronounce one word and no one should have to try.
But it is not "one word." Do you think "roti" is the only word for which this is an issue? Every bit of language taken from another source is going to have this kind of problem (when people make it a problem); that's why there was a thing back in the '80s where progressive people made a point of saying "Nee-cah-RRRAH-guah" when speaking English, often with hilariously bad approximations of actual Spanish pronunciation. If I had the time and wanted to take the trouble to go through the MeFi archives, I could provide you with a daunting number of examples of people complaining that other people aren't saying or using borrowed words right, or aren't using the words that other people think are the best words. It is, if you give it a moment's thought, absurd and impossible to insist that everyone use everyone else's words in the exact way that will be acceptable to everyone. I'll bet you don't say Khrushchev in a way that would be acceptable to a Russian, and (in case you're going to pull the "oh, Russians are white and not discriminated against so it doesn't count" card) I'm even more sure that you don't say Ngugi wa Thiong'o in a way that would be acceptable to a Kenyan (unless, of course, you yourself are Kenyan, in which case I've got a whole sackful of other examples I can toss at you).
Trying to force everyone else to conform to some imagined ideal of perfect pronunciation or usage is a mug's game and a waste of time; it's part of what I call "performative progressivism," and it's one of the things that tires me out when I read MetaFilter. Can't we all just concentrate on defeating the bad guys rather than policing each other's pronunciation?
posted by languagehat at 8:22 AM on July 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
(Waits for someone to say "Actually, it's Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o—how dare you leave off the authentic diacritics??")
posted by languagehat at 8:25 AM on July 20, 2017
posted by languagehat at 8:25 AM on July 20, 2017
languagehat: there's nothing wrong in trying your best to pronounce a PoC word while acknowledging you're pronouncing the PoC word the wrong way. Most of us are in agreement that people should not be judged for their pronounciation. However, there is something very problematic when a white/american person insists that their own white, americanized, incorrect pronunciation of a PoC word is in fact valid, and that the PoC's pronunciation is just their own subjective opinion.
The problem is not in the incorrect pronunciation - it's in the arrogance of insisting that your white culture and white pronunciation gets to assume equal validity alongside PoC pronunciation to which the word belongs, despite the PoC community protesting this isn't the case. It's in the arrogance of negating and denying PoC their own claim on their own language. Nothing wrong with mispronouncing a word - everyone does this frequently. But to insist your wrong pronunciation is equally valid to a marginalized community to which that language belongs - that reeks of arrogance and privilege.
posted by aielen at 8:52 AM on July 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
The problem is not in the incorrect pronunciation - it's in the arrogance of insisting that your white culture and white pronunciation gets to assume equal validity alongside PoC pronunciation to which the word belongs, despite the PoC community protesting this isn't the case. It's in the arrogance of negating and denying PoC their own claim on their own language. Nothing wrong with mispronouncing a word - everyone does this frequently. But to insist your wrong pronunciation is equally valid to a marginalized community to which that language belongs - that reeks of arrogance and privilege.
posted by aielen at 8:52 AM on July 20, 2017 [6 favorites]
I certainly cannot pronounce the name of every student I have, from a variety of cultures, but I do my best to approximate the pronunciation that they ask for; I think good faith effort counts for something, and a total lack of good faith effort has a lot of importance as well (and, as I've already said, such lack of effort from the majority to the minority has a history). I am not performing anything when I say that I like white people who ask me how to pronounce my name and then do their best to do so, and am far less keen on the company of white people who are not at all interested in getting my name right and think, in fact, that I'm the one who's pronouncing it wrong. You can call that performance of progressive politics, if you like. I call it expecting a minimal standard of respect.
posted by Aravis76 at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2017
posted by Aravis76 at 9:01 AM on July 20, 2017
Okay, upon mature reflection, I am convinced in re roti/roadie, pronunciation and microaggressions. It occurs to me that while there are limits on how well you're going to pronounce sounds that you didn't learn as a kid, culture is what determines how hard you try, and that if people are trying, you would expect that there would be a roti-ward drift in the way the native English speaking community pronounces it.
So for instance, here in MPLS we've got a general drift toward pronouncing Somali names and East African nouns generally more correctly because there are more Somali (and East African generally) Minneapolitans than there were twenty years ago by a good amount. In 1997, a native English speaker might say "what is this thing, injera? Is it pronounced INJ-era? In-hera? In-HERA? I-Nyera?" and that would be pretty culturally insignificant, because the average native English speaker here would not have heard the word pronounced out loud, would not regularly hear East African Minneapolitans talking, would probably not have eaten injera, etc. Even today, if someone is like "hm, I have never encountered this word before, I don't know how to say it", that wouldn't mean much. But what you'd expect - and what we do see - is a drift toward familiarity and correct pronunciation on average.
Like, what you might expect with "roti" would be that there would be a drift from "roadie" to a sort of hit-and-miss "roti" halfway point that was determined by how people had grown up pronouncing d/t in the middle of words.
I guess a difference between names and nouns, though, would be that if I work with, say, Ingeborg, I will be saying her name regularly and hearing it spoken; if I don't eat roti very often, I might not say it or hear it spoken more than once every few months. Calling Ingeborg "Ingie" or always saying "Inger-borg" would be a lot ruder, because it would mean going against the current of the common pronunciation around me. I would have to decide "I don't need to bother to try very hard", whereas if I didn't hear a word very often, I could easily think "I am trying very hard but I just can't make it stick".
I should, however, totally get some roti. The last time I had any was years and years ago, and it was too spicy for me. But now many years of eating differently has changed what I like, so I should give it another try.
posted by Frowner at 9:18 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
So for instance, here in MPLS we've got a general drift toward pronouncing Somali names and East African nouns generally more correctly because there are more Somali (and East African generally) Minneapolitans than there were twenty years ago by a good amount. In 1997, a native English speaker might say "what is this thing, injera? Is it pronounced INJ-era? In-hera? In-HERA? I-Nyera?" and that would be pretty culturally insignificant, because the average native English speaker here would not have heard the word pronounced out loud, would not regularly hear East African Minneapolitans talking, would probably not have eaten injera, etc. Even today, if someone is like "hm, I have never encountered this word before, I don't know how to say it", that wouldn't mean much. But what you'd expect - and what we do see - is a drift toward familiarity and correct pronunciation on average.
Like, what you might expect with "roti" would be that there would be a drift from "roadie" to a sort of hit-and-miss "roti" halfway point that was determined by how people had grown up pronouncing d/t in the middle of words.
I guess a difference between names and nouns, though, would be that if I work with, say, Ingeborg, I will be saying her name regularly and hearing it spoken; if I don't eat roti very often, I might not say it or hear it spoken more than once every few months. Calling Ingeborg "Ingie" or always saying "Inger-borg" would be a lot ruder, because it would mean going against the current of the common pronunciation around me. I would have to decide "I don't need to bother to try very hard", whereas if I didn't hear a word very often, I could easily think "I am trying very hard but I just can't make it stick".
I should, however, totally get some roti. The last time I had any was years and years ago, and it was too spicy for me. But now many years of eating differently has changed what I like, so I should give it another try.
posted by Frowner at 9:18 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
> However, there is something very problematic when a white/american person insists that their own white, americanized, incorrect pronunciation of a PoC word is in fact valid, and that the PoC's pronunciation is just their own subjective opinion.
I agree! Is anybody here saying that?
> But what you'd expect - and what we do see - is a drift toward familiarity and correct pronunciation on average.
Right, exactly! And trying to shame people who don't say it the way a progressive person wants them to say it doesn't speed up the process, it just adds to the general grar.
posted by languagehat at 9:27 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree! Is anybody here saying that?
> But what you'd expect - and what we do see - is a drift toward familiarity and correct pronunciation on average.
Right, exactly! And trying to shame people who don't say it the way a progressive person wants them to say it doesn't speed up the process, it just adds to the general grar.
posted by languagehat at 9:27 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
I listened to the clip and the way she says "roti" is exactly the way I say it and the way I always heard it in New York, except from people who did not speak standard English.
?
I'm sure you know this, but lots of Trinidadians live in New York and speak standard English. We just don't have the alveolar flap. Also, if you think Trinidadian roti-eaters were outraged at the idea of there being such a thing as too much roti, you should see Trinidadian linguists react to the words "standard English". I get the shivers just thinking about it.
In Trinidad, I think almost no one would take offence at the "roadie" pronunciation of "roti". Some people would laugh at you, some would correct you, some would encourage you to say it in the way that is most natural, and many would do two or three of those things at once. I have the impression that my American brother-in-law has been through some kind of gruelling pronunciation boot camp for Trinidadian words -- but then when you marry us, we're bound to expect more. Obviously in other countries, the politics of these things are going to be different.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:28 AM on July 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
?
I'm sure you know this, but lots of Trinidadians live in New York and speak standard English. We just don't have the alveolar flap. Also, if you think Trinidadian roti-eaters were outraged at the idea of there being such a thing as too much roti, you should see Trinidadian linguists react to the words "standard English". I get the shivers just thinking about it.
In Trinidad, I think almost no one would take offence at the "roadie" pronunciation of "roti". Some people would laugh at you, some would correct you, some would encourage you to say it in the way that is most natural, and many would do two or three of those things at once. I have the impression that my American brother-in-law has been through some kind of gruelling pronunciation boot camp for Trinidadian words -- but then when you marry us, we're bound to expect more. Obviously in other countries, the politics of these things are going to be different.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:28 AM on July 20, 2017 [3 favorites]
> However, there is something very problematic when a white/american person insists that their own white, americanized, incorrect pronunciation of a PoC word is in fact valid, and that the PoC's pronunciation is just their own subjective opinion.
I agree! Is anybody here saying that?
If that's not what you meant when you said this, what did you mean?
When you say "It is pronounced," what you mean is "I think it should be pronounced," but that's a fact about you, not about English pronunciation.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:29 AM on July 20, 2017
TORONTO STAR: ALVEOLAR FLAP CAUSES FLAP
posted by Kabanos at 10:39 AM on July 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Kabanos at 10:39 AM on July 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
Looks like The Toronto Star roti controversy made the news in Trinidad and Tobago.
Trinidad and Tobago Newsday: Half or Whole?
Her pronunciation issue is mentioned in passing, but most of the article reports the reaction of a nutritionist and a dietician. Both seem to agree more or less with Ogilvie strictly on the issue of calorie counts, but suggest there was a nutritional bigger picture that was ignored or misrepresented in comparing roti to chicken nuggets.
posted by Kabanos at 10:50 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Trinidad and Tobago Newsday: Half or Whole?
Her pronunciation issue is mentioned in passing, but most of the article reports the reaction of a nutritionist and a dietician. Both seem to agree more or less with Ogilvie strictly on the issue of calorie counts, but suggest there was a nutritional bigger picture that was ignored or misrepresented in comparing roti to chicken nuggets.
posted by Kabanos at 10:50 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just as an anecdotal data point, I'll add that I have never heard someone in Toronto say "roadie". But Ogilvie apparently lives in Paris, Ontario, so I'll just display my snobbery and say that maybe her pronunciation is based on her being from that part of Canada that is Not Toronto?
posted by Kabanos at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Kabanos at 10:56 AM on July 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
In the piece that noted her residency in Paris, there are a couple of examples of the hate mail Ogilvie received for her vegan muffin article. Both readers seem to have interpreted her McDonald comparisons as endorsements of the fast-food option over the vegan option. So maybe any comparisons to McDonalds in her columns are just confusing and a bad idea? But as mentioned above, it is most effective if she can compare to foods/meals that are familiar to most of the readership. Plus, she included a lot of qualifying language:
The roti/mcnugget comparison was more ambiguously worded, so I'm not surprised it spurred a strong response.
In conclusion, roti is delicious, and writing about nutrition for mass media is a minefield.
posted by Kabanos at 11:29 AM on July 20, 2017
"Though not a direct comparison, especially for vegans, it’s interesting to note that a double chocolate muffin with Oreo crumble from McDonalds has 450 calories and 15 grams of fat. No diner would mistake it for health food, yet it has half the calories and fat of the sweet potato date muffin." (Emphasis mine)Not really a stirring endorsement.
The roti/mcnugget comparison was more ambiguously worded, so I'm not surprised it spurred a strong response.
In conclusion, roti is delicious, and writing about nutrition for mass media is a minefield.
posted by Kabanos at 11:29 AM on July 20, 2017
and why there is very little incentive for PoC/internationals to sign up for an account
Generalisations don't really help.
That said, now I have an inkling of the content of the gyros I'm about to eat ;)
posted by ersatz at 9:30 AM on July 21, 2017
Generalisations don't really help.
That said, now I have an inkling of the content of the gyros I'm about to eat ;)
posted by ersatz at 9:30 AM on July 21, 2017
>and why there is very little incentive for PoC/internationals to sign up for an account
>>Generalisations don't really help.
Generalisations that aren't without merit and precedence - this has been discussed repeatedly on MeTa over the past 2 years at least:
Refer to here, here and here for instance.
posted by aielen at 11:41 AM on July 21, 2017
>>Generalisations don't really help.
Generalisations that aren't without merit and precedence - this has been discussed repeatedly on MeTa over the past 2 years at least:
Refer to here, here and here for instance.
posted by aielen at 11:41 AM on July 21, 2017
According to the infographics linked there have been consistently more posts about international topics than US-related ones since the early 2000s and social justice posts are up too.
posted by ersatz at 12:35 PM on July 23, 2017
posted by ersatz at 12:35 PM on July 23, 2017
> Trying to force everyone else to conform to some imagined ideal of perfect pronunciation or usage is a mug's game and a waste of time; it's part of what I call "performative progressivism,"
Man, I'd have done way better at my French exams if I'd known I could just tell my teacher to quit virtue signalling.
posted by lucidium at 4:59 PM on July 23, 2017
Man, I'd have done way better at my French exams if I'd known I could just tell my teacher to quit virtue signalling.
posted by lucidium at 4:59 PM on July 23, 2017
It is amazing how people respond to perceived judgment about their eating habits. Like maybe there's more cultural signalling going on here than I understand, but it really does seem from the outside like the article just says "this thing has a lot of calories," and people interpreted that to mean "you are bad and your food (and therefore culture) is bad."
Re the pronunciation thing:
I'm absolutely positive the prescriptivist vs. descriptivist debate doesn't need to happen again, for the sake of the mods' sanity if nothing else.
But
A. Swinging dismissive descriptivist essentialism (or whatever that was) around in a conversation about ethnicity and pronunciation surrounding food (as though the signals and stakes are the same as "how do you say roof") is not a super-great thing;
B. "Roadie" is an absolutely asinine way to pronounce that word if you've ever heard it spoken aloud. Like, I get that people have trouble rolling their Rs, but "row" and "tee" are both sounds that already exist in North American English.
North American Anglo mispronunciations often seem to spring from the same atavistic well of inherited English cultural chauvinism and willful ignorance that leads the English to intentionally mispronounce French words (well, and vice-versa TBF).
posted by aspersioncast at 2:03 PM on July 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Re the pronunciation thing:
I'm absolutely positive the prescriptivist vs. descriptivist debate doesn't need to happen again, for the sake of the mods' sanity if nothing else.
But
A. Swinging dismissive descriptivist essentialism (or whatever that was) around in a conversation about ethnicity and pronunciation surrounding food (as though the signals and stakes are the same as "how do you say roof") is not a super-great thing;
B. "Roadie" is an absolutely asinine way to pronounce that word if you've ever heard it spoken aloud. Like, I get that people have trouble rolling their Rs, but "row" and "tee" are both sounds that already exist in North American English.
North American Anglo mispronunciations often seem to spring from the same atavistic well of inherited English cultural chauvinism and willful ignorance that leads the English to intentionally mispronounce French words (well, and vice-versa TBF).
posted by aspersioncast at 2:03 PM on July 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
B. "Roadie" is an absolutely asinine way to pronounce that word if you've ever heard it spoken aloud. Like, I get that people have trouble rolling their Rs, but "row" and "tee" are both sounds that already exist in North American English.
Speaking as a native of the Grader Tronno Area, around here, any white person deliberately pronouncing a T rather than an alveolar flap or glottal stop or (in the case of the city's name) nothing at all is usually purposefully marking themselves as a member of the upper-upper-upper class. I would be profoundly embarrassed to enunciate the T in roti, as it would feel like a deliberately performative putting on of airs (either "look at my private education" or "look how worldly I am" --again, a class marker of a class I do not remotely belong to), and/or culturally appropriative, othering, and borderline mocking. I.e. pretentious as fuck and racist as fuck. I know this sounds whiny and terrible, but that really is how it feels, and I am absolutely, positively not going to do it. I'd feel like I was in blackface, and I'd really prefer not to. Accents are a thing, and I have one, and maybe deal with your own prejudices regarding my "asinine" one rather than insisting I imitate POC, as if that's suddenly now a sign of cultural sensitivity when for the last 500 years it's been completely racist as fuck. I fully acknowledge that I've been pronouncing roti unspectacularly. Obviously my pronunciation is not as valid as an Indian-Trinidadian-Canadian's. I understand that I'm butchering it, and that's got to be annoying as hell, but that's how it's gonna stay. Sorry. Besides, the T's really supposed to be kinda halfway between a T and a D anyway, so a hard T would be just as wrong as a D, wouldn't it?
Anyway, if you think that's bad, you should hear how my mother pronounces "avocado."
posted by Sys Rq at 8:02 AM on July 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a native of the Grader Tronno Area, around here, any white person deliberately pronouncing a T rather than an alveolar flap or glottal stop or (in the case of the city's name) nothing at all is usually purposefully marking themselves as a member of the upper-upper-upper class. I would be profoundly embarrassed to enunciate the T in roti, as it would feel like a deliberately performative putting on of airs (either "look at my private education" or "look how worldly I am" --again, a class marker of a class I do not remotely belong to), and/or culturally appropriative, othering, and borderline mocking. I.e. pretentious as fuck and racist as fuck. I know this sounds whiny and terrible, but that really is how it feels, and I am absolutely, positively not going to do it. I'd feel like I was in blackface, and I'd really prefer not to. Accents are a thing, and I have one, and maybe deal with your own prejudices regarding my "asinine" one rather than insisting I imitate POC, as if that's suddenly now a sign of cultural sensitivity when for the last 500 years it's been completely racist as fuck. I fully acknowledge that I've been pronouncing roti unspectacularly. Obviously my pronunciation is not as valid as an Indian-Trinidadian-Canadian's. I understand that I'm butchering it, and that's got to be annoying as hell, but that's how it's gonna stay. Sorry. Besides, the T's really supposed to be kinda halfway between a T and a D anyway, so a hard T would be just as wrong as a D, wouldn't it?
Anyway, if you think that's bad, you should hear how my mother pronounces "avocado."
posted by Sys Rq at 8:02 AM on July 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yes! I was trying to figure out why pronouncing roti with a hard t in America would be odd to me when I regularly order them in SE Asia with a hard t sound.
For people of a certain geographical area, pronouncing things with a hard t over what I guess is called an alveolar flap would be considered pretentious and actually subtly rude. It's like that old skit from SNL when people are ordering food from a Mexican restaurant with exaggerated accents. It's the same way people might react to conflating the American university Notre Dame with the French cathedral. If I started ordering water with a hard t people would think I was trying to sound posh.
It's interesting how there are two separate societal pressures working against each other.
Sorry for not busting out my IPA chart when describing sounds.
posted by Telf at 11:51 PM on July 28, 2017
For people of a certain geographical area, pronouncing things with a hard t over what I guess is called an alveolar flap would be considered pretentious and actually subtly rude. It's like that old skit from SNL when people are ordering food from a Mexican restaurant with exaggerated accents. It's the same way people might react to conflating the American university Notre Dame with the French cathedral. If I started ordering water with a hard t people would think I was trying to sound posh.
It's interesting how there are two separate societal pressures working against each other.
Sorry for not busting out my IPA chart when describing sounds.
posted by Telf at 11:51 PM on July 28, 2017
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