"wait this is the start of wonder woman"
August 31, 2017 9:56 AM Subscribe
Warner Brothers is planning a film version of Lord of the Flies that is--are you ready for this high concept? Are you? No, you only think you are--going to be all girls. And, stop me if you've heard this before, it's going to be written and directed by dudes.
Reaction to the announcement has been, shall we say, not kind.
Reaction to the announcement has been, shall we say, not kind.
Crone Island Begins
posted by Emmy Rae at 10:04 AM on August 31, 2017 [79 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 10:04 AM on August 31, 2017 [79 favorites]
It seems a little lazy to knee-jerk that "Lord of the Flies couldn't happen with little girls." At the very least, little girls have seen toxic masculinity performed and might believe (as Golding seemed to) that a "proper" recreation of society also requires recreating some sort of "patriarchy". So you might see little girls struggling with the demands of leadership as they know it that involves exerting cruel power or whatever. Or, frankly, some girls would just be sociopaths (at a lesser incidence than men) and could push the society into a different sort of unthinkingly cruel dystopia.
At the end of the day, I'm perfectly willing to believe that a feral society of little girls would turn into monsters just as readily as a feral society of little boys--building a society is hard and no children are capable of it.
posted by TypographicalError at 10:06 AM on August 31, 2017 [20 favorites]
At the end of the day, I'm perfectly willing to believe that a feral society of little girls would turn into monsters just as readily as a feral society of little boys--building a society is hard and no children are capable of it.
posted by TypographicalError at 10:06 AM on August 31, 2017 [20 favorites]
On Wednesdays, we break Piggy's glasses.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:06 AM on August 31, 2017 [54 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 10:06 AM on August 31, 2017 [54 favorites]
I love talking about really dumb things.
This is not dumb, it's awful.
posted by Caxton1476 at 10:08 AM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
This is not dumb, it's awful.
posted by Caxton1476 at 10:08 AM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
But we already have this movie, and it's Mean Girls and Heather. Plus, I'll be blunt, I do not trust men to make anything good out of this idea.
posted by palomar at 10:10 AM on August 31, 2017 [73 favorites]
posted by palomar at 10:10 AM on August 31, 2017 [73 favorites]
Sure, we can talk about what an all-female Lord of the Flies would look like - whether it would be different, how it would be different. I'll give the concept the benefit of a doubt...
...when it's written and directed by women.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:11 AM on August 31, 2017 [146 favorites]
...when it's written and directed by women.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:11 AM on August 31, 2017 [146 favorites]
It seems a little lazy to knee-jerk that "Lord of the Flies couldn't happen with little girls."
Seconded. People are saying that the original was all about "toxic masculinity" - but that's not how I remember it. I remember it being about the inherant savagery of people, not of boys. It is just as sexist to say that girls somehow lack the baser parts of human nature.
Lord Of The Flies was about what happened to a group of students - who happened to be from an all-boys school - when the veneer of civilization had been stripped away and their baser natures took over. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that girls don't have this baser nature - the civilizing elements may be different, but since women (and girls) also happen to be people, that means they can be just as cruel, paranoid, petty, violent, and antagonistic as boys, and to suggest otherwise is just a few short steps away from the "sugar and spice and everything nice" crap.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on August 31, 2017 [38 favorites]
Seconded. People are saying that the original was all about "toxic masculinity" - but that's not how I remember it. I remember it being about the inherant savagery of people, not of boys. It is just as sexist to say that girls somehow lack the baser parts of human nature.
Lord Of The Flies was about what happened to a group of students - who happened to be from an all-boys school - when the veneer of civilization had been stripped away and their baser natures took over. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that girls don't have this baser nature - the civilizing elements may be different, but since women (and girls) also happen to be people, that means they can be just as cruel, paranoid, petty, violent, and antagonistic as boys, and to suggest otherwise is just a few short steps away from the "sugar and spice and everything nice" crap.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:12 AM on August 31, 2017 [38 favorites]
Anyone who has ever been a junior high school girl knows that an all female version could make the original look like a 6 month old's play date where nothing interesting happens and everyone naps.
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 10:13 AM on August 31, 2017 [86 favorites]
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 10:13 AM on August 31, 2017 [86 favorites]
^this
posted by French Fry at 10:14 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by French Fry at 10:14 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean, Piggy's spirit would have been broken long before the plane crash, for one.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:16 AM on August 31, 2017 [30 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 10:16 AM on August 31, 2017 [30 favorites]
I mean, I joke, hahaha. But the very idea that a couple of dudes have the gall to think they're the ones to write this, and that people with money agreed...
I mean fuck everything. It's already an exploitive piece of trash, and they haven't written a word.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:18 AM on August 31, 2017 [38 favorites]
I mean fuck everything. It's already an exploitive piece of trash, and they haven't written a word.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:18 AM on August 31, 2017 [38 favorites]
This is, just so tone deaf and awful. I kinda can't handle it. The book isn't even about gender it's juxtaposition of society vs chaos and the worst instincts of humanity. Children as innocent or ideal humans is the Sledgehammer made of Ham that is used to push that point home. It's not subtle.
Other works of all boys prep school YA fiction, like literally anything creepy old Robert Cromier wrote, might actually be interesting to look at their alternately gendered counterparts.
But this, by these bros? Is it possible to explode with vomit? #Barfsplosion
posted by French Fry at 10:21 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Other works of all boys prep school YA fiction, like literally anything creepy old Robert Cromier wrote, might actually be interesting to look at their alternately gendered counterparts.
But this, by these bros? Is it possible to explode with vomit? #Barfsplosion
posted by French Fry at 10:21 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Why don't they just do it with animals and call it Animal Farm? Now that's high concept.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:22 AM on August 31, 2017 [20 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 10:22 AM on August 31, 2017 [20 favorites]
As someone who went to an all girls school, I have a lot of opinions about an all female Lord of the Flies
It's not as simple as 'feminist utopia' or 'passive aggressive savagery', and in a different world, I'd even find it interesting, but I just don't trust that dudes would even get it.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:22 AM on August 31, 2017 [46 favorites]
It's not as simple as 'feminist utopia' or 'passive aggressive savagery', and in a different world, I'd even find it interesting, but I just don't trust that dudes would even get it.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:22 AM on August 31, 2017 [46 favorites]
Anyone who has ever been a junior high school girl knows that an all female version could make the original look like a 6 month old's play date where nothing interesting happens and everyone naps.
I wasn't a junior high school girl and even I know that. In a female lord of the flies the unpopular girl would be dead in a ditch before the credits were done rolling.
I'm sure the inevitable lesbian romance is entirely justified by the text.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:23 AM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
I wasn't a junior high school girl and even I know that. In a female lord of the flies the unpopular girl would be dead in a ditch before the credits were done rolling.
I'm sure the inevitable lesbian romance is entirely justified by the text.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:23 AM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
Eh... ok, I can maybe understand it feeling gimmicky, but when I was reading this way back when, I was wondering why the premise "civilization scaled down metaphorically to school children" had to be all boys. You know, because we see men as the default "face" of society. And I thought about how, if you changed the genders of the characters, what was once a compelling metaphor for civilization and humanity would be perceived by the public as a representation of women instead of a representation of all people. Not that I could articulate my thoughts very well in middle school, but regardless I had these thoughts at the time.
Granted it's been a long time since I read it but the toxic masculinity aspect wasn't really apparent to me. I could totally imagine (being a girl on the butt-end of immense bullying and beat-downs from other girls and boys at school) an all-girls class having the same kind of characters--a lawful authoritarian, a sociopath, an intellectual, the tribalism that arises between groups, etc. And, the idea that women are somehow either perfect little angels, or the way our anger and violence gets shrugged off as "petty cat-fights" and whatnot is honestly more bothersome and sexist to me than the premise of all-girls LotF.
posted by picklenickle at 10:24 AM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
Granted it's been a long time since I read it but the toxic masculinity aspect wasn't really apparent to me. I could totally imagine (being a girl on the butt-end of immense bullying and beat-downs from other girls and boys at school) an all-girls class having the same kind of characters--a lawful authoritarian, a sociopath, an intellectual, the tribalism that arises between groups, etc. And, the idea that women are somehow either perfect little angels, or the way our anger and violence gets shrugged off as "petty cat-fights" and whatnot is honestly more bothersome and sexist to me than the premise of all-girls LotF.
posted by picklenickle at 10:24 AM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
You know, this COULD be really interesting. How would girls react in such a situation--specifically elementary and middle school girls as in the novel? It sure wouldn't be harmony, but it also wouldn't be an exact recreation of the book. While Golding intended to condemn society, not toxic masculinity, the former is inherently a critique of the latter as it is shaped by the latter. Girls feel pressures on account of toxic masculinity--but not necessarily to emulate it.
Executing this well would require a great deal of thought and consideration and could go sideways very easily. So given how Hollywood is, I expect what could be a brilliant social commentary on patriarchy, sexism, and society as a whole will end up being Catfights Forever.
posted by Anonymous at 10:26 AM on August 31, 2017
Executing this well would require a great deal of thought and consideration and could go sideways very easily. So given how Hollywood is, I expect what could be a brilliant social commentary on patriarchy, sexism, and society as a whole will end up being Catfights Forever.
posted by Anonymous at 10:26 AM on August 31, 2017
Miss Piggy?
Doing it with muppets?
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:26 AM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
Doing it with muppets?
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:26 AM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
The funny part is that William Golding, the writer of the book, actually commented specifically on why the book is all-boys and his explanation for why it wouldn't work is pretty similar to all the tweets:
Girls say to me, very reasonably, ‘why isn’t it a bunch of girls? Why did you write this about a bunch of boys?’... Don’t ask me why, and this is a terrible thing to say because I’m going to be chased from hell to breakfast by all the women who talk about equality — this is nothing to do with equality at all. I think women are foolish to pretend they are equal to men, they are far superior and always have been. But one thing you can’t do with them is take a bunch of them and boil them down, so to speak, into a set of little girls who would then become a kind of image of civilisation, of society.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:27 AM on August 31, 2017 [17 favorites]
Girls say to me, very reasonably, ‘why isn’t it a bunch of girls? Why did you write this about a bunch of boys?’... Don’t ask me why, and this is a terrible thing to say because I’m going to be chased from hell to breakfast by all the women who talk about equality — this is nothing to do with equality at all. I think women are foolish to pretend they are equal to men, they are far superior and always have been. But one thing you can’t do with them is take a bunch of them and boil them down, so to speak, into a set of little girls who would then become a kind of image of civilisation, of society.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:27 AM on August 31, 2017 [17 favorites]
Hey, guess what? Autostraddle has informed me that there is also going to be a Heathers reboot. But guess what? The people who persecute the white straight boy and girl are...queer people of color! Now that's inclusivity!
posted by Frowner at 10:27 AM on August 31, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:27 AM on August 31, 2017 [25 favorites]
what are the odds that the writers decide that filming that story with young middle school girls stranded on an island and battling it out would be too disturbing for viewers, and opt to bump up the age of the characters to oh say a more nubile and physically mature-looking 16-18. i guess you'd probably want to make sure they were played by 19-22 yr olds, just in case during a fight between girls there was, i don't know, exposed flesh involved which, i can't even imagine, but what if a camera lingered over that kind of thing a lot. for realism, of course. i really wonder what those odds are you guys
posted by Ornate Rocksnail at 10:28 AM on August 31, 2017 [80 favorites]
posted by Ornate Rocksnail at 10:28 AM on August 31, 2017 [80 favorites]
Also reducing this to "junior high school girls are so mean and will tear each other apart hur hur" completely ignores the fact that the way girls (and women) treat one another is strongly shaped by the pressures they feel in a patriarchy that judges their importance by how appealing they are to men. This doesn't mean that an all-girl community suddenly becomes a utopia, but it does mean you can't expect them to exactly replicate the behaviors they adopt in a mixed-gender social setting.
posted by Anonymous at 10:29 AM on August 31, 2017
posted by Anonymous at 10:29 AM on August 31, 2017
who happened to be from an all-boys school
I went to a day school in England. It was definitely about the savagery of little British boys. If you want the general savagery of humans, Golding wrote The Inheritors, about Homo Sapiens committing genocide against Neanderthals.
posted by maxsparber at 10:31 AM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
I went to a day school in England. It was definitely about the savagery of little British boys. If you want the general savagery of humans, Golding wrote The Inheritors, about Homo Sapiens committing genocide against Neanderthals.
posted by maxsparber at 10:31 AM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
Anyone who has ever been a junior high school girl knows that an all female version could make the original look like a 6 month old's play date where nothing interesting happens and everyone naps.
I always hear people say things like this but I think the idea that women are much crueler to each other than men are is a cliche that comes from believing that women are inherently catty and vindictive and in competition for male attention. I have been a junior high school girl and sure, girls are mean to each other but I've seen no evidence that female bullying is worse than male bullying. And I've also seen no evidence that all-male schools are much kinder places than all-female schools.
There is, of course, plenty of evidence that men commit much, much more violence than women do, both against women and against other men.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2017 [59 favorites]
I always hear people say things like this but I think the idea that women are much crueler to each other than men are is a cliche that comes from believing that women are inherently catty and vindictive and in competition for male attention. I have been a junior high school girl and sure, girls are mean to each other but I've seen no evidence that female bullying is worse than male bullying. And I've also seen no evidence that all-male schools are much kinder places than all-female schools.
There is, of course, plenty of evidence that men commit much, much more violence than women do, both against women and against other men.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2017 [59 favorites]
"Sucks to your ass-mar, Peggy!"
posted by Barack Spinoza at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Barack Spinoza at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
We also already have an all-female Lord of the Flies: Marianne Wiggins' novel John Dollar (1989). Perhaps somebody could just adapt it instead?
(Spoiler: all-girl LotF is no nicer than all-boy LotF.)
posted by thomas j wise at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
(Spoiler: all-girl LotF is no nicer than all-boy LotF.)
posted by thomas j wise at 10:32 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Hey, guess what? Autostraddle has informed me that there is also going to be a Heathers reboot. But guess what? The people who persecute the white straight boy and girl are...queer people of color! Now that's inclusivity!
Do we know if Veronica and JD are actually still white and straight? Like, this is obviously going to be fucking awful if they are ("Horrible SJWs And Their Horrible Bullying Of White People"), but it doesn't have to be if they aren't.
posted by Anonymous at 10:34 AM on August 31, 2017
Do we know if Veronica and JD are actually still white and straight? Like, this is obviously going to be fucking awful if they are ("Horrible SJWs And Their Horrible Bullying Of White People"), but it doesn't have to be if they aren't.
posted by Anonymous at 10:34 AM on August 31, 2017
Homo Sapiens committing genocide against Neanderthals
we ate them, right? doesn't current science think we ate them?
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
we ate them, right? doesn't current science think we ate them?
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
cronch
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on August 31, 2017 [15 favorites]
It wasn't really credited as such, but the remake of The Wicker Man was sort of the same thing, a mostly-female reboot with women left to their own devices on an island reverting to pagan savagery. Lord of the Bees, if you will.
It was written and directed by a man and was fucking awful.
posted by maxsparber at 10:36 AM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
It was written and directed by a man and was fucking awful.
posted by maxsparber at 10:36 AM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
we ate them, right? doesn't current science think we ate them?
I'm almost 4 percent Neanderthal, and I assume that's how that happened.
posted by maxsparber at 10:37 AM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
I'm almost 4 percent Neanderthal, and I assume that's how that happened.
posted by maxsparber at 10:37 AM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
I can't even sort out if I want this movie to go direct to video or be a shocking work of magnificence.
Like there should be more films with female casts. Especially young girls not in position of being saved by Dads or Boyfriends. But female casting being a "twist!!" feels like the 3 steps forward, 3 steps back, into a wall.
posted by French Fry at 10:37 AM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Like there should be more films with female casts. Especially young girls not in position of being saved by Dads or Boyfriends. But female casting being a "twist!!" feels like the 3 steps forward, 3 steps back, into a wall.
posted by French Fry at 10:37 AM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
This post is so thin that I don't even know what the outrage is about. Random tweet heads are barely coherent voices so maybe we can wait for more details or maybe even for the movie to be released before decided this is going to ruin everything?
But bullshit on the idea that none of the plot points wouldn't have happened if the characters were girls. Have these people not interacted with teen girls before? They think that girls can't bully and straight up beat the shit out of each other? Especially in the context of British boarding schools?
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:38 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
But bullshit on the idea that none of the plot points wouldn't have happened if the characters were girls. Have these people not interacted with teen girls before? They think that girls can't bully and straight up beat the shit out of each other? Especially in the context of British boarding schools?
posted by Foci for Analysis at 10:38 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Studio exec: "BUT ISN'T THIS WHAT YOU FEMINAZIS WANTED OH GOD I JUST CAN'T ANYMORE..." He jumps out of the window, only to land on a large inflatable cushion with the letters MGTOW. As he is led away by his new friends, he weeps tears of joy and liberation.
posted by Behemoth at 10:40 AM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by Behemoth at 10:40 AM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
can wait for more details or maybe even for the movie to be released before decided this is going to ruin everything?
No.
posted by maxsparber at 10:41 AM on August 31, 2017 [23 favorites]
No.
posted by maxsparber at 10:41 AM on August 31, 2017 [23 favorites]
Foci, I think the main problem here is that this is a movie where all the characters are girls, but written and directed my men. Do you think Hollywood has a particularly good track record, when it comes to men portraying women in film? It also creates this icky dynamic where all the people being told what to do (the actors) are girls, while all the people making the decisions (the writers and director) are men. Does that sound OK to you? Is there any reason you can think of why it wouldn't have made more sense to have women at the helm of a movie like this? Does the fact that the studio apparently didn't realize or care about how bad this looks suggest anything to you regarding the nuance, sensitivity, and realism with which the all-female cast is likely to be portrayed?
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:45 AM on August 31, 2017 [45 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 10:45 AM on August 31, 2017 [45 favorites]
having been a 10 year old girl in the presence of other 10 year old girls, at times exclusively (summer camp, girl scouts, etc), I can say most definitively that we were 100% capable of murderous horrors, held only in check by the promise or denial of chocolate pudding
posted by poffin boffin at 10:47 AM on August 31, 2017 [26 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:47 AM on August 31, 2017 [26 favorites]
> This post is so thin that I don't even know what the outrage is about. Random tweet heads are barely coherent voices
You do realize the first two links are actual articles, don't you? You can skip the tweets if you don't like tweets. And you can skip the whole discussion if you don't think there's anything interesting about an all-girl remake (or "remake") of Lord of the Flies made by men. Me, I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread, and I'm glad it was posted.
posted by languagehat at 10:48 AM on August 31, 2017 [33 favorites]
You do realize the first two links are actual articles, don't you? You can skip the tweets if you don't like tweets. And you can skip the whole discussion if you don't think there's anything interesting about an all-girl remake (or "remake") of Lord of the Flies made by men. Me, I think there's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread, and I'm glad it was posted.
posted by languagehat at 10:48 AM on August 31, 2017 [33 favorites]
I always hear people say things like this but I think the idea that women are much crueler to each other than men are is a cliche that comes from believing that women are inherently catty and vindictive and in competition for male attention.
Yeah speaking as a person that spent a year at Women's Colllege, you take the dudes and the dude-focus out and a lot of the most intense arguments are going to be "Sarah McLachlan: Yay or Nay" or "Are you propping up the patriarchal hegemony by fretting about your leg hair even though there is obviously no one here that cares?"
posted by thivaia at 10:49 AM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
Yeah speaking as a person that spent a year at Women's Colllege, you take the dudes and the dude-focus out and a lot of the most intense arguments are going to be "Sarah McLachlan: Yay or Nay" or "Are you propping up the patriarchal hegemony by fretting about your leg hair even though there is obviously no one here that cares?"
posted by thivaia at 10:49 AM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
Random tweet heads are barely coherent voices so maybe we can wait for more details or maybe even for the movie to be released before decided this is going to ruin everything?You know, I really don't understand this critique. Sometimes the premise of a piece of narrative art is a bad idea, and you really don't have to wait for it to be made to know that it's a bad idea.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:49 AM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
> I always hear people say things like this but I think the idea that women are much crueler to each other than men are is a cliche that comes from believing that women are inherently catty and vindictive and in competition for male attention.
Yeah, not to be all #notallmiddleschoolgirls, but I was a girl in middle school, and it was mostly fine. My worst experience was in a K-6 school when I entered the 6th grade as The New Kid, and got picked on by pretty much everyone; then I changed schools (and states) in 7th grade and was basically instantly befriended by my entire homeroom. I can't be the only woman who really never experienced the mean-girls thing in school, can I?
posted by rtha at 10:50 AM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
Yeah, not to be all #notallmiddleschoolgirls, but I was a girl in middle school, and it was mostly fine. My worst experience was in a K-6 school when I entered the 6th grade as The New Kid, and got picked on by pretty much everyone; then I changed schools (and states) in 7th grade and was basically instantly befriended by my entire homeroom. I can't be the only woman who really never experienced the mean-girls thing in school, can I?
posted by rtha at 10:50 AM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
... maybe we can wait for more details or maybe even for the movie to be released ...
Studio execs? If you're out there, get in touch! I've got this great idea about a gender-reversed Gilligan's Island!
posted by octobersurprise at 10:51 AM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Studio execs? If you're out there, get in touch! I've got this great idea about a gender-reversed Gilligan's Island!
posted by octobersurprise at 10:51 AM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think this movie will obviously be trash but I'm going to go one step farther and say I think the whole concept of LOTF is trash.
I don't believe that humans of any gender are naturally cruel, violent and sociopathic and would all soon devolve into brutalizing and abusing each other without the constraints of society. I think the idea that they are is an idea put forth by a small minority of humans who actually are cruel, violent and sociopathic and choose to believe that this is the norm and everyone is like that, and want to convince the rest of us also. I also don't believe that human children are born naturally terrible and slowly get less awful as the adults beat it out of them.
I do think that a society that believes that everyone is terrible in the absence of constant punishing abuse may in fact produce cruel, violent and sociopathic children, and I have no doubt that a WWII-era boarding school would be a good place to find this principle in action, but I absolutely reject the idea that this says anything about human nature.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:53 AM on August 31, 2017 [52 favorites]
I don't believe that humans of any gender are naturally cruel, violent and sociopathic and would all soon devolve into brutalizing and abusing each other without the constraints of society. I think the idea that they are is an idea put forth by a small minority of humans who actually are cruel, violent and sociopathic and choose to believe that this is the norm and everyone is like that, and want to convince the rest of us also. I also don't believe that human children are born naturally terrible and slowly get less awful as the adults beat it out of them.
I do think that a society that believes that everyone is terrible in the absence of constant punishing abuse may in fact produce cruel, violent and sociopathic children, and I have no doubt that a WWII-era boarding school would be a good place to find this principle in action, but I absolutely reject the idea that this says anything about human nature.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:53 AM on August 31, 2017 [52 favorites]
I've got this great idea about a gender-reversed Gilligan's Island!
As long as we can call it Gillian's Island and cast Gillian Anderson it's probably okay.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:54 AM on August 31, 2017 [56 favorites]
As long as we can call it Gillian's Island and cast Gillian Anderson it's probably okay.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:54 AM on August 31, 2017 [56 favorites]
The point of the novel isn't that children are mean. It's that children can represent a microcosm of the adult world, and, left to their own devices, can recreate the abuses of the adult world. What we think of as the savagery of the novel is all children mimicking the behavior of adults. The final image is of a soldier wondering about how these children became so violent and then turning to look at his own warship, and the book is set in the aftermath of an unspecified war.
Golding specifically chose boys because he felt they better represented a microcosm of society. And that was influenced by things like fagging, a schoolboy tradition in which younger boys at school must act as servants to older boys, who are often wildly abusive, but its a system that borrows from the relationship of a squire and knight in the Middle Ages.
So it's not about children being mean. It's about children reflecting the pervasive illness of the world, and that's a world constructed by men. The way girls act is a response to patriarchy, not a duplication of it, because they are not allowed, by definition, to participate in or benefit from patriarchy.
It becomes so radically a different film when you swap girls out for boys as to cease to reflect the themes of the book, and so probably should just be its own thing.
posted by maxsparber at 11:00 AM on August 31, 2017 [58 favorites]
Golding specifically chose boys because he felt they better represented a microcosm of society. And that was influenced by things like fagging, a schoolboy tradition in which younger boys at school must act as servants to older boys, who are often wildly abusive, but its a system that borrows from the relationship of a squire and knight in the Middle Ages.
So it's not about children being mean. It's about children reflecting the pervasive illness of the world, and that's a world constructed by men. The way girls act is a response to patriarchy, not a duplication of it, because they are not allowed, by definition, to participate in or benefit from patriarchy.
It becomes so radically a different film when you swap girls out for boys as to cease to reflect the themes of the book, and so probably should just be its own thing.
posted by maxsparber at 11:00 AM on August 31, 2017 [58 favorites]
Another book that has done girls-stranded-on-an-Island but in a hilarious manner is Libba Bray's Beauty Queens, can't we just make a movie of that?
posted by leesh at 11:04 AM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by leesh at 11:04 AM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
They should call this Lord of the Fly Girls, starring Jennifer Lopez and Rosie Perez. The Fly Girl all get trapped on the set of In Living Color for the weekend after a late practice session. They end up eating the night watchman, played by Jim Carrey, because he was being kind of a dick.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:04 AM on August 31, 2017 [60 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:04 AM on August 31, 2017 [60 favorites]
So you might see little girls struggling with the demands of leadership as they know it that involves exerting cruel power or whatever. Or, frankly, some girls would just be sociopaths (at a lesser incidence than men) and could push the society into a different sort of unthinkingly cruel dystopia.
It's certainly possible that it will/would be an interesting, legitimately thought-provoking take about how innate and enculturated differences between boys and girls might affect a story like Lord of the Flies. At the level of: this would not be physically impossible.
It's more likely, given that it would be a Hollywood movie made by two dudes, that it'll have pretty, notionally-teenaged girls making out with each other when they're not fighting in ways that make their tits bounce.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:08 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
It's certainly possible that it will/would be an interesting, legitimately thought-provoking take about how innate and enculturated differences between boys and girls might affect a story like Lord of the Flies. At the level of: this would not be physically impossible.
It's more likely, given that it would be a Hollywood movie made by two dudes, that it'll have pretty, notionally-teenaged girls making out with each other when they're not fighting in ways that make their tits bounce.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:08 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
Hey, guess what? Autostraddle has informed me that there is also going to be a Heathers reboot. But guess what? The people who persecute the white straight boy and girl are...queer people of color! Now that's inclusivity!
Oh, that idea can just fuck right off!
*smashes lamp*
GOD DAMMIT!
I liked that lamp
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:08 AM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
Oh, that idea can just fuck right off!
*smashes lamp*
GOD DAMMIT!
I liked that lamp
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:08 AM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
David Siegel hasn't produced anything that gives me confidence in his ability to handle this in a non-cringe-worthy way. His best recent work is the Lego Movie - fun film, but almost no female characters and those that do exist are basic tropes. Scott McGehee hasn't directed anything I've seen. One of his works got reviews that suggest he may not fuck this up. But it's funny that there are no female directors who are known for directing exciting dramas about women struggling with the flaws of humanity, except for Kathryn Bigelow, Ava DuVernay, Patty Jenkins, dozens of women who have never been given a shot because why hire them when there are mediocre white men available...
posted by Emily's Fist at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2017 [23 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2017 [23 favorites]
Is Joss Whedon signed up for rewrites?
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:16 AM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 11:16 AM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
Remember when movies were either good or bad and that was pretty much it? Good times.
posted by tommasz at 11:17 AM on August 31, 2017
posted by tommasz at 11:17 AM on August 31, 2017
I don't understand, how can you even tell if the flies are boys or girls? It's not like girl flies wear little bows or anything.
posted by ejs at 11:18 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by ejs at 11:18 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
Well, we finally have something to being MGotW's and SJW's together - everyone thinks this is a terrible idea.
posted by Karmakaze at 11:21 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Karmakaze at 11:21 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
ejs, It's the Lord who has a gender. This will be called Lady of the Flies.
posted by Emmy Rae at 11:23 AM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 11:23 AM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can't help but thinking that Jack Donaghy is somehow behind this. God knows he tried with this concept before.
posted by Ber at 11:23 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Ber at 11:23 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
They should call this Lord of the Fly Girls, starring Jennifer Lopez and Rosie Perez.
Certified funky fresh.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:24 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
Certified funky fresh.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:24 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
People are saying that the original was all about "toxic masculinity" - but that's not how I remember it. I remember it being about the inherant savagery of people, not of boys.
I mean you can say that all you want but that's not what the literal author thought.
spoiler alert he wrote it specifically about (in particular) economically privileged boys steeped in toxic masculinity and said outright it wouldn't work with little girls but, you know
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:25 AM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
I mean you can say that all you want but that's not what the literal author thought.
spoiler alert he wrote it specifically about (in particular) economically privileged boys steeped in toxic masculinity and said outright it wouldn't work with little girls but, you know
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:25 AM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
I agree that the premise of Lord of the Flies is flawed, just like the stupid Walking Dead is. People aren't perpetual fonts of malice and evil just waiting to be uncorked. While it's true that groups thrive in the presence of an external enemy, there's not better external enemy than the harsh external world. There's a reason why people get more cooperative in hostile environments (and even a beautiful tropical island, outside of the comforts of civilization, counts as that), it's just common sense. Work together or we all go down together. It's in the comfort of relative wealth and plenty that people have a little too much time on their hands and start getting stupid.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:26 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 11:26 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
ah I didn't read far enough. beat to the punch by multiple people, my apologies
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:27 AM on August 31, 2017
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 11:27 AM on August 31, 2017
I don't know the directors and I don't know how well they will handle this. I'm adopting a "generally shit unless proved otherwise" position, but that's generally for all Hollywood movies. My big concerns are:
1.) Will this actually be about elementary and middle school girls? Or will you be aging them up and showing them surviving in this tropical jungle in minimal clothing? (Echoing Ornate Rocksnail here)
2.) What era will this happen in? I'm thinking it will be set in the present with a psuedo diverse cast but starting all white girls. I think the original is tied to its time period in terms of how the boys react and how shocked everyone is to see what happened afterwards. I don't know exactly what the changes would have to be, but beyond adjusting for gender, you'd need to adjust for time period.
Speaking of periods, I remember the original book had boys of age 6-12. If there are 12 year old girls in this, some of them will be getting their periods for the first time. That is something that will have to be dealt with. Although I cannot imagine a Hollywood movie that shows a 12 year old girl running around with a blood stain on the crotch of her pants. Hell, periods for adult women don't get discussed in films.
posted by Hactar at 11:27 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
1.) Will this actually be about elementary and middle school girls? Or will you be aging them up and showing them surviving in this tropical jungle in minimal clothing? (Echoing Ornate Rocksnail here)
2.) What era will this happen in? I'm thinking it will be set in the present with a psuedo diverse cast but starting all white girls. I think the original is tied to its time period in terms of how the boys react and how shocked everyone is to see what happened afterwards. I don't know exactly what the changes would have to be, but beyond adjusting for gender, you'd need to adjust for time period.
Speaking of periods, I remember the original book had boys of age 6-12. If there are 12 year old girls in this, some of them will be getting their periods for the first time. That is something that will have to be dealt with. Although I cannot imagine a Hollywood movie that shows a 12 year old girl running around with a blood stain on the crotch of her pants. Hell, periods for adult women don't get discussed in films.
posted by Hactar at 11:27 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
See, for me, the book wasn't just about reverting to a feral condition, but also about authoritarianism and militarism and all the things British boys' schools of the time set out to encourage and inculcate.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:28 AM on August 31, 2017 [34 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:28 AM on August 31, 2017 [34 favorites]
spoiler alert he wrote it specifically about (in particular) economically privileged boys steeped in toxic masculinity and said outright it wouldn't work with little girls but, you know
I read that when it got posted above, thanks, and the basis of his argument for why it wouldn't work was that "women are obviously superior", which suggests that he is prey to the whole "girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice" perception about women just being inherently dainty and frail and sweet, and we're NOT, we are just as prone to human foibles as men.
I know that's what the author said about why he chose to make it all boys, but the premise upon which the author was working was fucked up.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
I read that when it got posted above, thanks, and the basis of his argument for why it wouldn't work was that "women are obviously superior", which suggests that he is prey to the whole "girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice" perception about women just being inherently dainty and frail and sweet, and we're NOT, we are just as prone to human foibles as men.
I know that's what the author said about why he chose to make it all boys, but the premise upon which the author was working was fucked up.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
I agree that the premise of Lord of the Flies is flawed,
It's no more flawed than the premise that talking pigs would eventually take over a farm. It's a parable.
posted by maxsparber at 11:34 AM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
It's no more flawed than the premise that talking pigs would eventually take over a farm. It's a parable.
posted by maxsparber at 11:34 AM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
Remember when movies were either good or bad and that was pretty much it? Good times.
…no? I mean, really, no. Art and theater criticism predates film by centuries, so people have been picking apart movies for pretty much as long as there have been movies.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:34 AM on August 31, 2017 [26 favorites]
…no? I mean, really, no. Art and theater criticism predates film by centuries, so people have been picking apart movies for pretty much as long as there have been movies.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:34 AM on August 31, 2017 [26 favorites]
> we ate them, right? doesn't current science think we ate them?Partially. Extinction of an entire human-like species solely through cannibalistic genocide is extremely unlikely, especially over the time period that Neanderthals and modern humans overlapped (about 5,000 years). More probably it was a combination of tribal warfare, interbreeding (as mentioned, modern West Europeans are still 4% Neanderthal), disease, being out-competed for resources, and inability to adapt to climate change.
</digression>
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 11:36 AM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
…no? I mean, really, no
I presumed that meant "remember when I only had access to really shitty criticism that mostly functioned as a consumer guide?"
A lot of these sort of statements should be framed as "do you remember my experiences when I was younger?"
posted by maxsparber at 11:38 AM on August 31, 2017 [17 favorites]
I presumed that meant "remember when I only had access to really shitty criticism that mostly functioned as a consumer guide?"
A lot of these sort of statements should be framed as "do you remember my experiences when I was younger?"
posted by maxsparber at 11:38 AM on August 31, 2017 [17 favorites]
Well… but even pre-Internet, there was a huge community of folks who were into film criticism, at every level from stoned teenagers sitting in their parents' basement to professors (who may or may not also have been stoners) publishing papers in the academic press. I mean, just because you weren't tuned into a particular phenomenon doesn't mean it didn't exist.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:45 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:45 AM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
people have been criticizing media ever since cave person A saw cave person B's painted horses which were much smaller and less impressive irl than they'd been misleadingly drawn
posted by poffin boffin at 11:49 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:49 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
That's literally how The Inheritors starts!
posted by maxsparber at 11:51 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 11:51 AM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
People aren't perpetual fonts of malice and evil just waiting to be uncorked.
lemme show you this website called the Twitter
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:51 AM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
lemme show you this website called the Twitter
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:51 AM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
I was going to recommend Four Frightened People as a sort of precursor to John Dollar, but just found out that it's already a movie -- Cecil B. DeMille directing Claudette Colbert! Jeez, I can't keep up.
posted by clew at 11:51 AM on August 31, 2017
posted by clew at 11:51 AM on August 31, 2017
People aren't perpetual fonts of malice and evil just waiting to be uncorked.
Speak for yourself.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:53 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
Speak for yourself.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:53 AM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think the idea that they are is an idea put forth by a small minority of humans who actually are cruel, violent and sociopathic and choose to believe that this is the norm and everyone is like that, and want to convince the rest of us also.Golding was a World War II veteran who was obviously influenced by the millions of civilians evacuated from Nazi bombing campaigns when writing a decade later. It's easy to see how someone might be cynical after invading Normandy, isn't it? It's surely not always the case that a majority of a group of humans might be swayed by a charismatic sociopath into joining in on murderous savagery, but the world had just watched it happen.
On the other hand, you may be 100% right in his case, so I can't exactly argue too strongly. I still feel like there must have been people who fought Nazis and became cynics without being attempted rapists beforehand or running creepy psychological experiments on children afterwards, but I seem to be 0-for-1 on that hypothesis, so there we are.
posted by roystgnr at 11:53 AM on August 31, 2017 [7 favorites]
I agree that the premise of Lord of the Flies is flawed, just like the stupid Walking Dead is.
I may be a bit biased as a huge fan of The Walking Dead, but in no way is that the premise of the show.
posted by agregoli at 11:57 AM on August 31, 2017
I may be a bit biased as a huge fan of The Walking Dead, but in no way is that the premise of the show.
posted by agregoli at 11:57 AM on August 31, 2017
I really do wonder what the final six words of the novel(isation of the film) will be.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 12:00 PM on August 31, 2017
posted by the quidnunc kid at 12:00 PM on August 31, 2017
A counterexample to Lord of the Flies might actually be the reality show Kid Nation, which dumped a bunch of kids of various ages and genders in a fake "Ghost Town" in the middle of the desert in New Mexico (Actually it dumped them miles away and made them walk all their gear into town. Six-year-olds were crying before things even really got started. It only ran one season and the producers got sued.) and forced them to build their own society.
Despite the producers' incessant attempts at stirring the pot and pitting the kids against each other in various insidious ways, the kids kept almost getting their shit together and creating a functioning society. Every time it looked like they were settling down the producers would add some new variable calculated to make them all become resentful and hypercompetitive again, but I swear if they'd been left alone they would've done alright. Well, aside from that one girl who got burned with hot oil in a cooking accident.
It was really a terrible idea for a show and went about as well as you'd expect, but the problem definitely wasn't evil kids. Even the bullies started to get their shit together by the end, bad leaders were ousted and replaced with better ones, people who weren't pulling their weight got shamed or shunned into doing chores, etc. An interesting show, though I feel like a worse person for having seen it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:01 PM on August 31, 2017 [33 favorites]
Despite the producers' incessant attempts at stirring the pot and pitting the kids against each other in various insidious ways, the kids kept almost getting their shit together and creating a functioning society. Every time it looked like they were settling down the producers would add some new variable calculated to make them all become resentful and hypercompetitive again, but I swear if they'd been left alone they would've done alright. Well, aside from that one girl who got burned with hot oil in a cooking accident.
It was really a terrible idea for a show and went about as well as you'd expect, but the problem definitely wasn't evil kids. Even the bullies started to get their shit together by the end, bad leaders were ousted and replaced with better ones, people who weren't pulling their weight got shamed or shunned into doing chores, etc. An interesting show, though I feel like a worse person for having seen it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:01 PM on August 31, 2017 [33 favorites]
Maybe instead of re-making Lord of the Flies with all women they should make a Lord of the Rings with more than three.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:03 PM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:03 PM on August 31, 2017 [18 favorites]
Another book that has done girls-stranded-on-an-Island but in a hilarious manner is Libba Bray's Beauty Queens, can't we just make a movie of that?
SECONDED
posted by redsparkler at 12:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
SECONDED
posted by redsparkler at 12:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
People aren't perpetual fonts of malice and evil just waiting to be uncorked.
People in general, no. The products of the British public school system*, yes.
* Confusingly, "public school" refers to a group of expensive, selective, private boarding schools - this is the 'public school' system, not the public 'school system'. British people will insist that this makes perfect sense, despite the fact that it plainly doesn't.
posted by Dysk at 12:30 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
People in general, no. The products of the British public school system*, yes.
* Confusingly, "public school" refers to a group of expensive, selective, private boarding schools - this is the 'public school' system, not the public 'school system'. British people will insist that this makes perfect sense, despite the fact that it plainly doesn't.
posted by Dysk at 12:30 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
#notallmiddleschoolgirls
Just to throw in on this. I plainly remember the social games and snubs among my girl peers growing up. A lot of the power games revolve around friendship given and friendship taken away which can feel very, very hurtful. As I grew older, a lot of the worst shit was in relation to boys and their attention and the status seeking that revolved around boys. I can think of three particularly nasty incidents which when I realized were exactly this, I noped out. I can only hope my daughter has the smarts and fortitude to do the same. But when I think back on the long arc of childhood, the most frightening bullying and threats of violence and harm came from other boys in my peer group. Boys absolutely play the same game and for the ones that were good at it, they were excellent at spinning up the girls, spreading rumors and creating an ostracizing environment. Luckily, I had many great boy friends in school as well as girl friends. Charismatic, rotten folks can really spoil the room.
posted by amanda at 12:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Just to throw in on this. I plainly remember the social games and snubs among my girl peers growing up. A lot of the power games revolve around friendship given and friendship taken away which can feel very, very hurtful. As I grew older, a lot of the worst shit was in relation to boys and their attention and the status seeking that revolved around boys. I can think of three particularly nasty incidents which when I realized were exactly this, I noped out. I can only hope my daughter has the smarts and fortitude to do the same. But when I think back on the long arc of childhood, the most frightening bullying and threats of violence and harm came from other boys in my peer group. Boys absolutely play the same game and for the ones that were good at it, they were excellent at spinning up the girls, spreading rumors and creating an ostracizing environment. Luckily, I had many great boy friends in school as well as girl friends. Charismatic, rotten folks can really spoil the room.
posted by amanda at 12:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
'public' in the English school context means 'nondenominational', as in not Catholic/Anglican/otherwise parochial and limited to students of that religious background, is my understanding.
People aren't perpetual fonts of malice and evil just waiting to be uncorked.
I used to believe this, but after 10+ years of reading incident reports and going to trials, my view of humanity is solidly Hobbesian.
posted by Flannery Culp at 12:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
People aren't perpetual fonts of malice and evil just waiting to be uncorked.
I used to believe this, but after 10+ years of reading incident reports and going to trials, my view of humanity is solidly Hobbesian.
posted by Flannery Culp at 12:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I really do wonder what the final six words of the novel(isation of the film) will be.
Quotes from the novel(isation of the film):
Quotes from the novel(isation of the film):
"Maybe there is a Slender Man.... maybe it's only us."posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:52 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
"Give the Slender Man a makeover! Feed him carbs! Paint features on his face!"
"Which is better — to have laws and agree, or to shop and text?"
Ramona wept for the end of innocence, the darkness of woman's heart, and the unfriending of the true, once friend called Pygmalion.
The camp councilor, surrounded by these noises, was moved and a little embarrassed. She turned away to give them time to pull themselves together; and waited, allowing her eyes to rest on her iPhone.
We also already have an all-female Lord of the Flies: Marianne Wiggins' novel John Dollar (1989).
I was just coming over to say exactly this.
The book posits a very different type of reaction among the shipwrecked girls, and I'll leave it at that-- except that it deals much more honestly with the racism inherent in the idea of "reverting to savagery".
And I don't believe that bullying amongst girls is any worse than bullying amongst boys, just different.
posted by jokeefe at 12:54 PM on August 31, 2017
I was just coming over to say exactly this.
The book posits a very different type of reaction among the shipwrecked girls, and I'll leave it at that-- except that it deals much more honestly with the racism inherent in the idea of "reverting to savagery".
And I don't believe that bullying amongst girls is any worse than bullying amongst boys, just different.
posted by jokeefe at 12:54 PM on August 31, 2017
People are saying that the original was all about "toxic masculinity" - but that's not how I remember it. I remember it being about the inherant savagery of people, not of boys. It is just as sexist to say that girls somehow lack the baser parts of human nature.
From my perspective, the problem here is twofold. On the one side they could have an abandoned group of young girls act totally unlike the boys in Lord of the Flies and try to make some claim that is difficult to analogize for the reasons mentioned above about human nature, but also for the reasons mentioned by Golding that a women led society has no true analog in our reality. Society's been led by men to whatever grand places you might point to in our history. So it would be more fantasy than analogy which sort of misses the point of the story.
On the other, more likely and more troubling side, is the girls do behave more or less like the boys, but perhaps with some gender coded girlstuff added in, which could quite possibly be troubling for the coding itself, but even more for the reasons why such a film would be felt to be needed at this given moment. Women aren't currently running society, so would be the point exactly of showing they'd behave terribly to each other?
Without any men or boys on the island, the girls can't confront male behavior directly, so there isn't much chance for a challenge to the social order as it is, so it would just be girls behaving badly to each other. At best that shows girls are no different than boys, people are people after all, but it also is likely to reinforce ideas of the existing social order since if there is no difference there is no need to change anything. Of course the added, um, bonus, is that anyone not really familiar with the book will see the girls being shits without any connection to boys, so the girls will actually come off as bad for being girls to those viewers.
There is, of course, some chance they find either a third way I haven't accounted for, or they refine their ideas in some fashion that provides necessary balance or nuance. McGehee and Seigel have made well regarded films with women in central roles, but I'm more than a little dubious of their chances for success here at this point.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:58 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
From my perspective, the problem here is twofold. On the one side they could have an abandoned group of young girls act totally unlike the boys in Lord of the Flies and try to make some claim that is difficult to analogize for the reasons mentioned above about human nature, but also for the reasons mentioned by Golding that a women led society has no true analog in our reality. Society's been led by men to whatever grand places you might point to in our history. So it would be more fantasy than analogy which sort of misses the point of the story.
On the other, more likely and more troubling side, is the girls do behave more or less like the boys, but perhaps with some gender coded girlstuff added in, which could quite possibly be troubling for the coding itself, but even more for the reasons why such a film would be felt to be needed at this given moment. Women aren't currently running society, so would be the point exactly of showing they'd behave terribly to each other?
Without any men or boys on the island, the girls can't confront male behavior directly, so there isn't much chance for a challenge to the social order as it is, so it would just be girls behaving badly to each other. At best that shows girls are no different than boys, people are people after all, but it also is likely to reinforce ideas of the existing social order since if there is no difference there is no need to change anything. Of course the added, um, bonus, is that anyone not really familiar with the book will see the girls being shits without any connection to boys, so the girls will actually come off as bad for being girls to those viewers.
There is, of course, some chance they find either a third way I haven't accounted for, or they refine their ideas in some fashion that provides necessary balance or nuance. McGehee and Seigel have made well regarded films with women in central roles, but I'm more than a little dubious of their chances for success here at this point.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:58 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
If they want to be edgy, let's have a version of Lord of the Flies from the flies' perspective.
posted by me3dia at 1:03 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by me3dia at 1:03 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
As I recall there's a clash of two schools among the survivors. Jack's is a Jesuit school, I think? Anyhow the school is shown to strongly militaristic and authoritarian, and hierarchical. The boys are marching about and drilling as soon as they've landed on the island and it's clear that the prefects are used to being obeyed and used to enforcing. And I think the other school is a grammar school - it's a while since I read it - and poor old Piggy is double doomed not just by being short-sighted and plump (and asthmatic?) but also by being a scholarship boy, so lower class than the others and so they see him as a natural inferior.
To me LOTF is specifically about late British Empire and how boys were educated into being the bosses of it, and how savage that actually is. The locked-room situation reveals the savagery as what it is, since the boys are actually all peers, whereas with Empire the inferiors are defined as 'other' and disciplining them is explained away as being in the service of some sort of 'natural authority' (see Kipling, 'lesser breeds without the law.') So LOTf as an analogy does sterling work in showing how power is generated, sustained and deployed.
About that education. Girls did not get it. The analogy breaks down entirely with regard to girls because they were not trained for authority and had no military training either. But boys were explicitly trained to it, with additional disciplinary/militaristic systems such as cadets, where they drilled and learned how to use weapons. It's interesting to read Robert Graves' autobiography from a generation earlier, and realise how it was perfectly natural for private school teen boys to spend their time doing quasi-military training as a matter of course during holidays. Graves of course went straight from school to a position of second lieutenant at the beginning of WW1 in 1914: this was more or less the purpose of the particular type of education he received. He was 19 years old.
posted by glasseyes at 1:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [38 favorites]
To me LOTF is specifically about late British Empire and how boys were educated into being the bosses of it, and how savage that actually is. The locked-room situation reveals the savagery as what it is, since the boys are actually all peers, whereas with Empire the inferiors are defined as 'other' and disciplining them is explained away as being in the service of some sort of 'natural authority' (see Kipling, 'lesser breeds without the law.') So LOTf as an analogy does sterling work in showing how power is generated, sustained and deployed.
About that education. Girls did not get it. The analogy breaks down entirely with regard to girls because they were not trained for authority and had no military training either. But boys were explicitly trained to it, with additional disciplinary/militaristic systems such as cadets, where they drilled and learned how to use weapons. It's interesting to read Robert Graves' autobiography from a generation earlier, and realise how it was perfectly natural for private school teen boys to spend their time doing quasi-military training as a matter of course during holidays. Graves of course went straight from school to a position of second lieutenant at the beginning of WW1 in 1914: this was more or less the purpose of the particular type of education he received. He was 19 years old.
posted by glasseyes at 1:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [38 favorites]
When I was a teen the books that I loved were Julie of the Wolves and Island of the Blue Dolphins, not LotF. I'd rather see them adapted instead.
posted by sukeban at 1:07 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by sukeban at 1:07 PM on August 31, 2017 [14 favorites]
You know, so it's like a swan song for empire, among other things.
But I think that the point is not so much that boys are naturally unpleasant, as that authority as inculcated into male persons at that particular moment in time, is pretty bloody savage. Ironically, since said authority makes claims to being an ultimate manifestation of civilisation.
posted by glasseyes at 1:09 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
But I think that the point is not so much that boys are naturally unpleasant, as that authority as inculcated into male persons at that particular moment in time, is pretty bloody savage. Ironically, since said authority makes claims to being an ultimate manifestation of civilisation.
posted by glasseyes at 1:09 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Dammit, I'm code switching. I said 'private school' and couldn't work out why that felt off somehow - of course I meant Public School
posted by glasseyes at 1:12 PM on August 31, 2017
posted by glasseyes at 1:12 PM on August 31, 2017
Despite the producers' incessant attempts at stirring the pot and pitting the kids against each other in various insidious ways, the kids kept almost getting their shit together and creating a functioning society. Every time it looked like they were settling down the producers would add some new variable calculated to make them all become resentful and hypercompetitive again, but I swear if they'd been left alone they would've done alright.
Strip Search, the Penny Arcade/Loading Ready Run game show ended up being kind of like this. 12 artists, only one of which had even an ounce of "I didn't come here to make friends," and she softened up, too.
It turns out that in many environments, people are pretty altruistic and cooperative.
posted by explosion at 1:15 PM on August 31, 2017
Strip Search, the Penny Arcade/Loading Ready Run game show ended up being kind of like this. 12 artists, only one of which had even an ounce of "I didn't come here to make friends," and she softened up, too.
It turns out that in many environments, people are pretty altruistic and cooperative.
posted by explosion at 1:15 PM on August 31, 2017
'public' in the English school context means 'nondenominational', as in not Catholic/Anglican/otherwise parochial and limited to students of that religious background, is my understanding.
No, it means a very expensive and probably old fee-paying school whose old-boy network will likely have significant political and financial influence.
posted by glasseyes at 1:16 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
No, it means a very expensive and probably old fee-paying school whose old-boy network will likely have significant political and financial influence.
posted by glasseyes at 1:16 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
I mean, without patriarchy around to fuck them up entirely, and without patriarchal enforcement of dominance as the greatest fucking virtue, I feel like a bunch of middle school girls would just cooperate and listen to each other and thereby reinvent civilization entirely within a few months.
But that makes for a shitty story. So. That's not what we're going to get.
We're going to get garbage.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:17 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
But that makes for a shitty story. So. That's not what we're going to get.
We're going to get garbage.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:17 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
But I think that the point is not so much that boys are naturally unpleasant, as that authority as inculcated into male persons at that particular moment in time, is pretty bloody savage. Ironically, since said authority makes claims to being an ultimate manifestation of civilisation.
Right, for the film to have any chance of decent merit, they'll have to take pains to show a distinctly different system of modeling behavior for the girls, which would require some real attention to detail and expression of values. It isn't impossible to do that, but to do it and still maintain anything like expected drama becomes difficult. They'd likely have to show one form of more authoritarian "rule" taking hold only to be overthrown by a more benevolent method or something along those lines.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:19 PM on August 31, 2017
Right, for the film to have any chance of decent merit, they'll have to take pains to show a distinctly different system of modeling behavior for the girls, which would require some real attention to detail and expression of values. It isn't impossible to do that, but to do it and still maintain anything like expected drama becomes difficult. They'd likely have to show one form of more authoritarian "rule" taking hold only to be overthrown by a more benevolent method or something along those lines.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:19 PM on August 31, 2017
This crap is written and directed by dudes? There better not be a make-out scene.
I mean it.
posted by ananci at 1:20 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean it.
posted by ananci at 1:20 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
gusottertrout, the situation just doesn't transpose across gender without a completely different outcome! - because the context and history would be so different. Now it could be interesting to explore that outcome but sounds like noone has any confidence in the filmmakers to do that.
Incidentally there's a strong inference in LOTF that things wouldn't have turned out that way without Jack and his cohort. If they'd all been grammmar school boys, no clash and competition and domination and murder and so forth.
posted by glasseyes at 1:27 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Incidentally there's a strong inference in LOTF that things wouldn't have turned out that way without Jack and his cohort. If they'd all been grammmar school boys, no clash and competition and domination and murder and so forth.
posted by glasseyes at 1:27 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's also helpful to keep in mind that Golding is reacting against a very specific tradition in children's literature, the Robinsonade, and within that tradition, a very specific novel, R. M. Ballantyne's The Coral Island (1858), something that Wikipedia notes as an aside. (Ballantyne's heroes are [in descending order of age and authority] Jack, Ralph, and Peterkin; in case readers have missed the shout-out, the officer who rescues the kids at the end of LotF name-checks The Coral Island.) The Coral Island is a good example of how boy's adventure fiction linked up with pro-imperialist rhetoric, here of what historians call the "benevolent" (Christian, paternalist) variety. Golding sets out to torpedo TCI's assumptions about English and Christian superiority right sharpish (starting with the presumption that English "pluck" will keep everything running tip-top), but he does so by having the boys turn, in effect, into TCI's stereotypical representations of unconverted indigenous peoples from the South Pacific (hence jokeefe's point). Wiggins' John Dollar actually pays much more attention to the imperialist underpinnings of The Coral Island than LotF does, not least because it's a historical novel set in 1917.
posted by thomas j wise at 1:27 PM on August 31, 2017 [37 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 1:27 PM on August 31, 2017 [37 favorites]
This crap is written and directed by dudes? There better not be a make-out scene.
I mean it.
The climactic pillow fight scene will be sick.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:30 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
I mean it.
The climactic pillow fight scene will be sick.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:30 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
*But we already have this movie, and it's Mean Girls and Heather*.....and the locker room scene in Carrie.
posted by brujita at 1:42 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by brujita at 1:42 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Is there any reason you can think of why it wouldn't have made more sense to have women at the helm of a movie like this? Does the fact that the studio apparently didn't realize or care about how bad this looks suggest anything to you regarding the nuance, sensitivity, and realism with which the all-female cast is likely to be portrayed?
I agree with your doubts that this will be great, and I agree that the optics suck too, but I really think your point misrepresents how movies actually get made. They get made because an individual or small group is willing to commit and then fight to get them made, often over several years. These people need inspiration and commitment as well as the rights to underlying IP. It's only a certain type of blockbuster studio property where the studios themselves are the driving force that can hire or fire directors at will.
Anyway, this particular project is being driven by a male writing/directing team. There is no easy mechanism to take it away from them and 'give it' to a female team. Nor is that type of approach likely to work.
Anyway, I agree that this project has some hurdles and raises some interesting issues, and I also agree that Hollywood has a terrible track record with intrinsic sexism in staffing and storytelling. I do not agree that men are unable to write female characters or perspectives, just as I disagree with the opposite assumption.
I guess I'm advocating giving this team the benefit of the doubt, at least until the film is made.
posted by hamandcheese at 1:44 PM on August 31, 2017
I agree with your doubts that this will be great, and I agree that the optics suck too, but I really think your point misrepresents how movies actually get made. They get made because an individual or small group is willing to commit and then fight to get them made, often over several years. These people need inspiration and commitment as well as the rights to underlying IP. It's only a certain type of blockbuster studio property where the studios themselves are the driving force that can hire or fire directors at will.
Anyway, this particular project is being driven by a male writing/directing team. There is no easy mechanism to take it away from them and 'give it' to a female team. Nor is that type of approach likely to work.
Anyway, I agree that this project has some hurdles and raises some interesting issues, and I also agree that Hollywood has a terrible track record with intrinsic sexism in staffing and storytelling. I do not agree that men are unable to write female characters or perspectives, just as I disagree with the opposite assumption.
I guess I'm advocating giving this team the benefit of the doubt, at least until the film is made.
posted by hamandcheese at 1:44 PM on August 31, 2017
This crap is written and directed by dudes? There better not be a make-out scene.
the characters are children, like can we not
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 1:48 PM on August 31, 2017
the characters are children, like can we not
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 1:48 PM on August 31, 2017
The characters are kids, and hollywood has a history of casting older than age actors. In this instance, fears of changing the story to have more past puberty girls has already been expressed here. Yes, hopefully THEY will not, but why are you upset people are blecch about that and expressing it here?
posted by agregoli at 1:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 1:51 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
No, it means a very expensive and probably old fee-paying school whose old-boy network will likely have significant political and financial influence.
Well, right, but I thought that was the original reason why British and American schools use the same term for different things - tuition-charging school with enrollment not limited to a certain religion vs. school operated at public cost and open to all residents of an area. I may be wrong.
/education terminology derail
posted by Flannery Culp at 1:51 PM on August 31, 2017
Well, right, but I thought that was the original reason why British and American schools use the same term for different things - tuition-charging school with enrollment not limited to a certain religion vs. school operated at public cost and open to all residents of an area. I may be wrong.
/education terminology derail
posted by Flannery Culp at 1:51 PM on August 31, 2017
I do not agree that men are unable to write female characters or perspectives, just as I disagree with the opposite assumption.
Maybe not unable, but historically they are pretty bad at it.
One reason that this isn't a perfect comparison is that women are exposed to men's stories and viewpoints all the time, but the reverse is not true. Women are basically forced to have a much deeper understanding of men than they do of us because they control so much media and literature. Just following the news will introduce you to many more men than it will women. So a woman writing a male character can draw on years of hearing those voices clearly because they are prioritized.
I would similarly argue that a black person could write a white character much more effectively than I as a white person could write a black character - the stories of whiteness are pervasive in our culture, but the stories of blackness are not.
posted by Emmy Rae at 1:53 PM on August 31, 2017 [34 favorites]
Maybe not unable, but historically they are pretty bad at it.
One reason that this isn't a perfect comparison is that women are exposed to men's stories and viewpoints all the time, but the reverse is not true. Women are basically forced to have a much deeper understanding of men than they do of us because they control so much media and literature. Just following the news will introduce you to many more men than it will women. So a woman writing a male character can draw on years of hearing those voices clearly because they are prioritized.
I would similarly argue that a black person could write a white character much more effectively than I as a white person could write a black character - the stories of whiteness are pervasive in our culture, but the stories of blackness are not.
posted by Emmy Rae at 1:53 PM on August 31, 2017 [34 favorites]
Speaking of blasphemous travesties that should not exist: Bromans, ITV's new show about Bros who pretend to be ancient Romans. Which, unless it's going to try to recapture the feeling of an old Steve Reeves flick, needs a thumbs down before it hits the sand.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 1:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I have been a junior high school girl and sure, girls are mean to each other but I've seen no evidence that female bullying is worse than male bullying.
Female bullying is worse than male bullying because young men do not bother learning empathy for a very long time, and thus don't have feels to weaponize. Young women are better both at kindness and at malice because they have the skills for both.
posted by corb at 1:59 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Female bullying is worse than male bullying because young men do not bother learning empathy for a very long time, and thus don't have feels to weaponize. Young women are better both at kindness and at malice because they have the skills for both.
posted by corb at 1:59 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
Disagree, corb. Men start out just as empathetic as women, but have that aspect of themselves systematically crippled and stunted early on as they learn what masculinity is supposed to mean in our society. Big boys don't cry, after all. Since being a masculine-presenting male is one of the big keys to success in our culture, there is relatively little incentive to reject this and deprogram oneself—a process made even more difficult by the fact that the emotional skills men are deprived of are the very ones needed to do that deprogramming. This stuff gets internalized on a very deep, unconscious level—but I believe that it's more a matter of systematic deprivation and indoctrination than of men simply not bothering. It's an educational problem, essentially.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:12 PM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 2:12 PM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
The characters are kids, and hollywood has a history of casting older than age actors. In this instance, fears of changing the story to have more past puberty girls has already been expressed here. Yes, hopefully THEY will not, but why are you upset people are blecch about that and expressing it here?
1) I saw nothing in the linked articles about this concern.
2) in a 100+ comment thread, upon review I have seen one comment (other than yours) talking about the sexualization of children. I missed it on the first go-thru. like, sorry
3) yes this deserves to be talked about but
4) to me there is a big difference between someone saying "man I really hope they don't sexualize children via aging up and male-gazing ways" and then "the kids better not make out". your comment sounded flippant to me and it was the first one I saw in the thread that got into sexualizing children and it did it in a way that seemed to me, frankly, pre-emptively doing exactly that in a way that was completely unnecessary to get the point across. in addition your initial comment had 0 inclusion of the context of the producers aging the characters up to have actual of age actors play them (STILL BAD!) which sounds COMPLETELY different from just saying it might have kids in a sexual situation.
4) I have no issue with people worrying about this I took issue with the way you expressed it. sorry for agreeing on the issue with you in a slightly different way? why are you so upset? I kind of just didn't want to read specific examples of children characters in sexual scenarios and thought it was a poor way to handle that particular issue?
I wasn't upset I was basically at mildly annoyed cringe levels at your specific comment which is why i quoted it but hey choose your own adventure
anyway, I'm out.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 2:17 PM on August 31, 2017
1) I saw nothing in the linked articles about this concern.
2) in a 100+ comment thread, upon review I have seen one comment (other than yours) talking about the sexualization of children. I missed it on the first go-thru. like, sorry
3) yes this deserves to be talked about but
4) to me there is a big difference between someone saying "man I really hope they don't sexualize children via aging up and male-gazing ways" and then "the kids better not make out". your comment sounded flippant to me and it was the first one I saw in the thread that got into sexualizing children and it did it in a way that seemed to me, frankly, pre-emptively doing exactly that in a way that was completely unnecessary to get the point across. in addition your initial comment had 0 inclusion of the context of the producers aging the characters up to have actual of age actors play them (STILL BAD!) which sounds COMPLETELY different from just saying it might have kids in a sexual situation.
4) I have no issue with people worrying about this I took issue with the way you expressed it. sorry for agreeing on the issue with you in a slightly different way? why are you so upset? I kind of just didn't want to read specific examples of children characters in sexual scenarios and thought it was a poor way to handle that particular issue?
I wasn't upset I was basically at mildly annoyed cringe levels at your specific comment which is why i quoted it but hey choose your own adventure
anyway, I'm out.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 2:17 PM on August 31, 2017
I may be wrong
Just a bit.
There are and have been Catholic public schools but the British elite has been mostly Protestant since, oh, Henry viii or at least Elizabeth i so religion not very relevant to the definition. Also one of the schools in lotf is religious.
I suppose Stoneyhurst College is an independent rather than a public school but it has all the qualities of the latter in it's age, structure, traditions and costs, so if you called it a public school in the British context most people would correctly understand quite a lot about it.
yes, will end derail now.
posted by glasseyes at 2:18 PM on August 31, 2017
Just a bit.
There are and have been Catholic public schools but the British elite has been mostly Protestant since, oh, Henry viii or at least Elizabeth i so religion not very relevant to the definition. Also one of the schools in lotf is religious.
I suppose Stoneyhurst College is an independent rather than a public school but it has all the qualities of the latter in it's age, structure, traditions and costs, so if you called it a public school in the British context most people would correctly understand quite a lot about it.
yes, will end derail now.
posted by glasseyes at 2:18 PM on August 31, 2017
young men do not bother learning empathy for a very long time
corb, this is really really wrong.
But I have seen mothers mourning the very striking cut off point that can happen when young men start developing their 'shell.'
posted by glasseyes at 2:22 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
corb, this is really really wrong.
But I have seen mothers mourning the very striking cut off point that can happen when young men start developing their 'shell.'
posted by glasseyes at 2:22 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
Hey suddenly and without warning? You are reaponding to two different people and don't seem to realize that. Looks like you need to read more carefully in general here.
posted by agregoli at 2:24 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 2:24 PM on August 31, 2017 [6 favorites]
glasseyes: thanks for the correction! I have apparently been thinking about this all wrong for years. /end derail, for reals
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:29 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Flannery Culp at 2:29 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Lord of the Flies couldn't happen with little girls
Princess of the Flies.
posted by Segundus at 2:33 PM on August 31, 2017
Princess of the Flies.
posted by Segundus at 2:33 PM on August 31, 2017
[Long comment explaining reasoning point by point]
anyway, I'm out.
posted by suddenly, and without warning
Stop trying to make uneponysterical a thing!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:39 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
anyway, I'm out.
posted by suddenly, and without warning
Stop trying to make uneponysterical a thing!
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:39 PM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
it's going to be written and directed by dudes.
shitlords of the flies
Sometimes the premise of a piece of narrative art is a bad idea, and you really don't have to wait for it to be made to know that it's a bad idea.
Another recent example: Confederate.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:43 PM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
shitlords of the flies
Sometimes the premise of a piece of narrative art is a bad idea, and you really don't have to wait for it to be made to know that it's a bad idea.
Another recent example: Confederate.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:43 PM on August 31, 2017 [9 favorites]
I think it's silly to try to draw conclusions about how stranded kids would act based on real life behavior of girls- or boys for that matter. The novel is too far separated from anything resembling reality. To start with, the kids would be too busy starving to death to get up to all the nonsense in the novel.
I just can't see Lots of the Flies as anything but a calculated and cynical exercise in torture and brutality. And that's just to the high-school kids forced to read it in class.
posted by happyroach at 2:56 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I just can't see Lots of the Flies as anything but a calculated and cynical exercise in torture and brutality. And that's just to the high-school kids forced to read it in class.
posted by happyroach at 2:56 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I just can't see the novel as anything but a calculated and cynical exercise in torture and brutality. And that's just to the high-school kids forced to read it in class.
I think you're looking for the Nathaniel Hawthorne thread.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:59 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think you're looking for the Nathaniel Hawthorne thread.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:59 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Alright, let's work on the lazy details.
Somebody tell me: what will Piggy's hair look like?
Because if your first instincts on reading that sentence aren't, 'oh fuck... they'll giver her pigtails and glasses so it is clear they should ostracize her' closely followed or tied with 'wtf, of course a guy on the internet bring up their appearance... and crap, this is totally not going to go anywhere good with whatever the directors decides...'
Because, this will be a deliberate choice by the director. This character will be a specific hatred for the girls, someone that can and must be mocked by most but, pittied and protected by the female equivalent of Ralph... And right now, I can't think of a lazy or non-lazy choice that moves the concept of an all female cast of Lord of the Flies forward.
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
Somebody tell me: what will Piggy's hair look like?
Because if your first instincts on reading that sentence aren't, 'oh fuck... they'll giver her pigtails and glasses so it is clear they should ostracize her' closely followed or tied with 'wtf, of course a guy on the internet bring up their appearance... and crap, this is totally not going to go anywhere good with whatever the directors decides...'
Because, this will be a deliberate choice by the director. This character will be a specific hatred for the girls, someone that can and must be mocked by most but, pittied and protected by the female equivalent of Ralph... And right now, I can't think of a lazy or non-lazy choice that moves the concept of an all female cast of Lord of the Flies forward.
posted by Nanukthedog at 3:04 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
I think you're looking for the Nathaniel Hawthorne thread.
Seriously, Lord of the Flies is a book carefully selected and vetted by school boards, in order to destroy any love for reading in teenagers. I have a tutoring client who's currently been assigned LotF, and I have to restrain myself from sayng "Oh you poor dear. Is it particularly painful? "
I mean, it's not the worst- I once saw a high school student with dyslexia get assigned "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", which should be a felony, Bot LotF is right up there.
posted by happyroach at 3:13 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Seriously, Lord of the Flies is a book carefully selected and vetted by school boards, in order to destroy any love for reading in teenagers. I have a tutoring client who's currently been assigned LotF, and I have to restrain myself from sayng "Oh you poor dear. Is it particularly painful? "
I mean, it's not the worst- I once saw a high school student with dyslexia get assigned "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", which should be a felony, Bot LotF is right up there.
posted by happyroach at 3:13 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yes, but Nathaniel Hawthorne takes three pages to describe a chair. If I was stranded on an Island with a bunch of authors, I'd take out Hawthorne before we ever got to the Island. Like - we'd be on that Island because I scuttled the ship just to kill Hawthorne.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:18 PM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:18 PM on August 31, 2017 [16 favorites]
Yes, but Nathaniel Hawthorne takes three pages to describe a chair.
This is exactly how I felt about Faulkner in high school, if said chair description had three nested digressions in one run-on sentence. Frankly, I feel like high school reading assignments are the absolute best way to discourage anyone from reading for enjoyment. I was a kid who loved reading (genre fiction, of course) and by the end of high school that was all but throttled out of me.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:25 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is exactly how I felt about Faulkner in high school, if said chair description had three nested digressions in one run-on sentence. Frankly, I feel like high school reading assignments are the absolute best way to discourage anyone from reading for enjoyment. I was a kid who loved reading (genre fiction, of course) and by the end of high school that was all but throttled out of me.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:25 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Speaking of blasphemous travesties that should not exist: Bromans, ITV's new show about Bros who pretend to be ancient Romans.
I think you have a stray "not" in there.
posted by uncleozzy at 3:35 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think you have a stray "not" in there.
posted by uncleozzy at 3:35 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Friends, Bromans, countrymen, lend me your beers.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:37 PM on August 31, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:37 PM on August 31, 2017 [12 favorites]
There are just so many ways this can be a horrific clusterfuck.
1) They age up the girls, because they want 14-18 year olds in skimpy "survival" clothing. There is probably at least one make-out scene, which might turn out to be a dream.
2) They don't age up the girls - and a pack of male directors and crew spend several months ordering a bunch of preteen girls to be cruel to each other.
3) Either age range - One girl gets her period for the first time on the island. Of course, she's the one with "deeply religious" parents who have told her nothing about it and she thinks she's dying. It's played for laughs.
4) Every shred of infomation about how young girls usually cooperate is ignored, and they try to just rewrite the male dialogue with female pronouns, with bonus comments about makeup and first dates.
5) One girl is a lesbian. (This is separate from the "probably will include a make-out session" issue.) The other girls call her a boy, or a wannabe-boy, but they all rely on her because she has amazing survival skills, "just like a boy."
... I would love to hear someone's outline of how this could go well. Because I can think of "girls marooned on an island" plots that turn out great (and not even, "because they all love each other and work together to survive!") but I can't think of anything inspired by LotF that won't be terrible.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
1) They age up the girls, because they want 14-18 year olds in skimpy "survival" clothing. There is probably at least one make-out scene, which might turn out to be a dream.
2) They don't age up the girls - and a pack of male directors and crew spend several months ordering a bunch of preteen girls to be cruel to each other.
3) Either age range - One girl gets her period for the first time on the island. Of course, she's the one with "deeply religious" parents who have told her nothing about it and she thinks she's dying. It's played for laughs.
4) Every shred of infomation about how young girls usually cooperate is ignored, and they try to just rewrite the male dialogue with female pronouns, with bonus comments about makeup and first dates.
5) One girl is a lesbian. (This is separate from the "probably will include a make-out session" issue.) The other girls call her a boy, or a wannabe-boy, but they all rely on her because she has amazing survival skills, "just like a boy."
... I would love to hear someone's outline of how this could go well. Because I can think of "girls marooned on an island" plots that turn out great (and not even, "because they all love each other and work together to survive!") but I can't think of anything inspired by LotF that won't be terrible.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:57 PM on August 31, 2017 [10 favorites]
Men start out just as empathetic as women, but have that aspect of themselves systematically crippled and stunted early on as they learn what masculinity is supposed to mean in our society. Big boys don't cry, after all.
Just in case anyone missed it, there's an excellent documentary on this very subject called The Mask You Live In (I'm mobile and having trouble linking).
(And maybe the good folks at The Representation Project should weigh in on this remake. I'm sure they'd have a thing or two to say about it. )
posted by vignettist at 4:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just in case anyone missed it, there's an excellent documentary on this very subject called The Mask You Live In (I'm mobile and having trouble linking).
(And maybe the good folks at The Representation Project should weigh in on this remake. I'm sure they'd have a thing or two to say about it. )
posted by vignettist at 4:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Speaking of blasphemous travesties that should not exist: Bromans, ITV's new show about Bros who pretend to be ancient Romans.
Oh good! The men will be gladiators? ...they'll all be slaves then? Will they be whored out to the society women on the show? Sent to a country estate as field hands to be worked to early death through exhaustion? Will we get to see them fight to the death in the arena? Slaughter some innocent animal like an elephant? I sure hope so! How about religion? How many heifers can we expect to be sacrificed to Jupiter? Which of the women will be Vestal Virgins? Will we get to see the underground immurement if breaks her vows? Will they be bleaching their clothes with urine? Can we expect a plague outbreak this season? How many can we expect to lose through robbery and murder via street violence?
So many exciting questions!
posted by leotrotsky at 4:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh good! The men will be gladiators? ...they'll all be slaves then? Will they be whored out to the society women on the show? Sent to a country estate as field hands to be worked to early death through exhaustion? Will we get to see them fight to the death in the arena? Slaughter some innocent animal like an elephant? I sure hope so! How about religion? How many heifers can we expect to be sacrificed to Jupiter? Which of the women will be Vestal Virgins? Will we get to see the underground immurement if breaks her vows? Will they be bleaching their clothes with urine? Can we expect a plague outbreak this season? How many can we expect to lose through robbery and murder via street violence?
So many exciting questions!
posted by leotrotsky at 4:11 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm going to recycle my comment from the Ingrid Goes West FanFare thread and say that men should stop writing and directing movies about how awful women are.
Not because women and girls are never awful, but because male filmmakers don't seem to be able to represent awful women with any kind of depth or empathy.
posted by misfish at 4:13 PM on August 31, 2017 [25 favorites]
Not because women and girls are never awful, but because male filmmakers don't seem to be able to represent awful women with any kind of depth or empathy.
posted by misfish at 4:13 PM on August 31, 2017 [25 favorites]
The only way I would watch this is if it was written, directed, and performed by former cast members of RuPaul's Drag Race.
posted by Hypatia at 4:34 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Hypatia at 4:34 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
... I would love to hear someone's outline of how this could go well.
Okay, I'll bite.
1) Have some women write it. Not just one, but several. So that different perspectives are baked into the narrative. And it can't be a comedy.
2) Has to be cast and directed by women.
3) They have to spend a shitload of money and film on location. The location must be fierce and beautiful. Make it a character.
4) The basics still have to be there - the story must still be ultimately about how a struggle for survival by young people mirrors the problems of society, and how they ultimately lead to dangerous conflict. BUT - they should change up the modern day issues. One I can think of that would be an easy transition would be how scarce resources are managed, especially if the girls come from different class types. Perhaps some of the girls are the children of privilege and some are the children of their servants? That's pretty hackneyed, but it only took 5 minutes to think of it, and done well, it could be powerful. Maybe less obvious than that, but still coming from very different backgrounds. They'd need to be careful to avoid racial stereotypes while they're at it, but that's true anyway. Some girls want to plan and build well and not deplete their resources, while others want instant gratification. The story becomes about long term survival, ecology, cooperation, socialism, entitlement, aggression, anti-intellectualism, inhibitions, and the tyranny of the majority.
5) Good writing. Good Acting. Good direction.
6)...Profit!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:36 PM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
Okay, I'll bite.
1) Have some women write it. Not just one, but several. So that different perspectives are baked into the narrative. And it can't be a comedy.
2) Has to be cast and directed by women.
3) They have to spend a shitload of money and film on location. The location must be fierce and beautiful. Make it a character.
4) The basics still have to be there - the story must still be ultimately about how a struggle for survival by young people mirrors the problems of society, and how they ultimately lead to dangerous conflict. BUT - they should change up the modern day issues. One I can think of that would be an easy transition would be how scarce resources are managed, especially if the girls come from different class types. Perhaps some of the girls are the children of privilege and some are the children of their servants? That's pretty hackneyed, but it only took 5 minutes to think of it, and done well, it could be powerful. Maybe less obvious than that, but still coming from very different backgrounds. They'd need to be careful to avoid racial stereotypes while they're at it, but that's true anyway. Some girls want to plan and build well and not deplete their resources, while others want instant gratification. The story becomes about long term survival, ecology, cooperation, socialism, entitlement, aggression, anti-intellectualism, inhibitions, and the tyranny of the majority.
5) Good writing. Good Acting. Good direction.
6)...Profit!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:36 PM on August 31, 2017 [11 favorites]
I think you have a stray "not" in there.
I did say "unless it's like an old Steve Reeves movie."
Will they be whored out to the society women on the show?
I certainly hope so!
posted by octobersurprise at 5:09 PM on August 31, 2017
I did say "unless it's like an old Steve Reeves movie."
Will they be whored out to the society women on the show?
I certainly hope so!
posted by octobersurprise at 5:09 PM on August 31, 2017
I went to an all girls boarding school, run by Catholic nuns. There was some cruelty, yes, and bullying. But in the nearby all boys Catholic boarding school they generally advanced to the stealing every meal from first years level of savagery and far, far beyond.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 5:41 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 5:41 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
According to IMDB and Wikipedia David Siegel was not involved in either of the Lego movies. Siegel and McGehee have made a handful of mature, thoughtful, films over the past 25 years. Almost all of them have been pretty low budget affairs. I've only seen their first two, Suture and The Deep End, both of which were interesting and intense. There is nothing in those movies to indicate that their take on Lord of the Flies would be exploitative dreck.
posted by plastic_animals at 5:55 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by plastic_animals at 5:55 PM on August 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
"The only all-female reboot I need
is the one of this presidency."
@mariskreizman
^THIS
posted by pjsky at 6:09 PM on August 31, 2017 [24 favorites]
is the one of this presidency."
@mariskreizman
^THIS
posted by pjsky at 6:09 PM on August 31, 2017 [24 favorites]
Way back in 2004, the great, lamented all-women San Francisco Bay area theater company Woman's Will did Lord of the Flies to good local reviews - East Bay Express review of Woman's Will's production, Berkeley Daily Planet review. So there are women with existing expertise with this material.
posted by kristi at 6:48 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by kristi at 6:48 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think it's absolutely possible for a male writer to write good young female characters. However, modern Hollywood has a really poor track record of giving movie deals to those particular writers. I've seen my share of movies that pass the Bechdel Test in the same way that Jim Kirk passed the Kobayashi Maru.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:42 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:42 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Just adding my two cents. I went to an all-girls school for seven years and it was remarkably pleasant, with much less bullying than the co-ed public school I attended before. (Where I was bullied by both girls and boys...) Not to say there weren't epic cliques, fallings out, name-calling, especially in middle school. But for the entire seven years I was there, there wasn't one incidence of violence that I was ever aware of, at any level. I mean sometimes someone made someone cry by being mean...but yanno.
On the other hand our "brother school" an all-boys school very similar in make-up and ideology to ourselves, apparently had a LOT of violence and violent bullying, from some of my friends' stories.
posted by threeturtles at 7:43 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
On the other hand our "brother school" an all-boys school very similar in make-up and ideology to ourselves, apparently had a LOT of violence and violent bullying, from some of my friends' stories.
posted by threeturtles at 7:43 PM on August 31, 2017 [8 favorites]
Popping back in to follow up on linking The Mask You Live In (Trailer on Youtube; the full movie is available on Netflix) , and also The Representation Project.
posted by vignettist at 7:55 PM on August 31, 2017
posted by vignettist at 7:55 PM on August 31, 2017
The first time I was tasked to read this book I was twelve and during that summer vacation was required to give my interpretation of it to my uncle, a high-school English teacher who disagreed with my opinion that it was boring and who told me, in detail, how stupid and wrong I was. The second time I was tasked to read this book, a year later, my book report consisted of everything my uncle had told me about its interpretation. The third time this shit was assigned to me I dropped out, graduated high school via California's Equivalency exam, and went straight to college. Where they assigned different shit, like "Time of her time" by Norman Mailer.
Think I'll miss this movie, even when it's super hot and the theater up the street showing it is the only place to find air conditioning.
posted by goofyfoot at 9:32 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Think I'll miss this movie, even when it's super hot and the theater up the street showing it is the only place to find air conditioning.
posted by goofyfoot at 9:32 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is exactly how I felt about Faulkner in high school, if said chair description had three nested digressions in one run-on sentence. Frankly, I feel like high school reading assignments are the absolute best way to discourage anyone from reading for enjoyment.
Faulkner was just about my favorite thing I read in high school--I ended up doing a a senior project on him and read four of his novels over the course of senior year--but I actually liked most of the novels/plays/epic poems we read in high school (even Hawthorne!). "Lord of the Flies" was one of my least favorite assignments (along with "1984," which soured me on Orwell for years until I went back and read some of his non-fiction). I had a few really marvelous English teachers in HS and it seemed like everything we read led me to something else which led to something else and eventually I ended up in college in the Lit Department.
Or to put another way: high school students and assigned novels--land of contrasts.
posted by thivaia at 9:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
Faulkner was just about my favorite thing I read in high school--I ended up doing a a senior project on him and read four of his novels over the course of senior year--but I actually liked most of the novels/plays/epic poems we read in high school (even Hawthorne!). "Lord of the Flies" was one of my least favorite assignments (along with "1984," which soured me on Orwell for years until I went back and read some of his non-fiction). I had a few really marvelous English teachers in HS and it seemed like everything we read led me to something else which led to something else and eventually I ended up in college in the Lit Department.
Or to put another way: high school students and assigned novels--land of contrasts.
posted by thivaia at 9:45 PM on August 31, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Hey guys, I know it's hard to get these boars up close, but if we gathered some feathers, sticks, and flint, maybe we could—"
"Stop trying to make fletching happen. It's not going to happen."
Sorry.
posted by condour75 at 10:00 PM on August 31, 2017 [12 favorites]
"Stop trying to make fletching happen. It's not going to happen."
Sorry.
posted by condour75 at 10:00 PM on August 31, 2017 [12 favorites]
Just a reminder, with so much energy focused on anger at concepts that aren't what people hope for in better representation in movies, there are movies actually being released by women and minority filmmakers.
August alone saw the release of Columbus, starring Haley Lu Richardson and John Cho which was directed by Kogonada, a Korean filmmaker whose video essays have been linked to on the blue before.
Detroit, Kathryn Bigelow's film about the Detroit riots of 1967. This is what she chose to parlay her success from Zero Dark Thirty and The Hurt Locker into, so it's a personal project for her. One, of course, that might also have some controversial aspects being by a white director about racism.
Amanda Lipitz's documentary Step about a girl's high school step dance team.
Kidnap starring Halle Berry and directed by Luis Prieto a Spanish born director.
Fun Mom Dinner directed by Australian Alethea Jones
Gook the debut feature by Korean American filmmaker and actor Justin Chon
Beach Rats directed by Eliza Hittman
Polina directed by Valérie Müller & Angelin Preljocaj which is being released by Oscilloscope Laboratories
To just criticize without making equal efforts towards supporting women and minority filmmakers, change becomes difficult as it simply builds negativity without positive outlet. If we want more than just white men making movies and decisions about them, we need to provide an alternative choice that will be more beneficial.
Many of the movies I listed are, or were, in limited release, so look for them online or at your video stores and maybe generate some positive buzz to match the disapproval and help make changes that lead to profits and further the cycle. Even if those movies aren't around, keep an eye out for others perhaps outside your usual zone of familiarity. There are plenty of good filmmakers out there who just need support to get their shot at the big markets.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:36 AM on September 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
August alone saw the release of Columbus, starring Haley Lu Richardson and John Cho which was directed by Kogonada, a Korean filmmaker whose video essays have been linked to on the blue before.
Detroit, Kathryn Bigelow's film about the Detroit riots of 1967. This is what she chose to parlay her success from Zero Dark Thirty and The Hurt Locker into, so it's a personal project for her. One, of course, that might also have some controversial aspects being by a white director about racism.
Amanda Lipitz's documentary Step about a girl's high school step dance team.
Kidnap starring Halle Berry and directed by Luis Prieto a Spanish born director.
Fun Mom Dinner directed by Australian Alethea Jones
Gook the debut feature by Korean American filmmaker and actor Justin Chon
Beach Rats directed by Eliza Hittman
Polina directed by Valérie Müller & Angelin Preljocaj which is being released by Oscilloscope Laboratories
To just criticize without making equal efforts towards supporting women and minority filmmakers, change becomes difficult as it simply builds negativity without positive outlet. If we want more than just white men making movies and decisions about them, we need to provide an alternative choice that will be more beneficial.
Many of the movies I listed are, or were, in limited release, so look for them online or at your video stores and maybe generate some positive buzz to match the disapproval and help make changes that lead to profits and further the cycle. Even if those movies aren't around, keep an eye out for others perhaps outside your usual zone of familiarity. There are plenty of good filmmakers out there who just need support to get their shot at the big markets.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:36 AM on September 1, 2017 [17 favorites]
I'm grateful for mefites who like this book explaining what it means and its significance, because like goofyfoot I hated being assigned this and found it cynical and pointless. But as an American teen I had zero knowledge of English public schools or any other relevant context. And I'm fairly sure none was provided. Of course having learned more about the original I too am doubtful you can genderswap it and have it make sense or be good. Aside from context the story is just "people are real shitbags amirite" which isn't much of a story.
posted by emjaybee at 5:54 AM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 5:54 AM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
...the Sledgehammer made of Ham...
Hamhammer?
Possibly the best thing in this thread.
posted by Foosnark at 6:02 AM on September 1, 2017
Hamhammer?
Possibly the best thing in this thread.
posted by Foosnark at 6:02 AM on September 1, 2017
Way back in 2004, the great, lamented all-women San Francisco Bay area theatre company Woman's Will did Lord of the Flies to good local reviews - East Bay Express review of Woman's Will's production, Berkeley Daily Planet review.
Thank you!!! :-)
And so for this "all female" theatrical photoplay, perhaps talented actor Maisie Williams, say, might be cast in the role of ... Ralph?
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:22 AM on September 1, 2017
Thank you!!! :-)
And so for this "all female" theatrical photoplay, perhaps talented actor Maisie Williams, say, might be cast in the role of ... Ralph?
posted by the quidnunc kid at 6:22 AM on September 1, 2017
1. There's this very strong mid-century Anglophone tendency toward both "children are Naturally Evil, that's where evil comes from" and "let's write about children as a metaphor for human evil". I surmise that this is both a response to post-war upheaval and an anti-communist gesture. Off the top of my head, I can think of Lord of the Flies, "All Summer In A Day", "The Destructors" and various movies like Children of the Corn. There's a certain amount of "women are naturally evil, that's where evil comes from" writing too, but it operates a bit differently, and is counterbalanced by more "women are irrational but magically good and maternal!!!"
It's an inherently conservative gesture, and very much "human evil doesn't come from material causes that can be addressed but rather from intrinsic horribleness, therefore social change is useless". You can see this by the uses to which Animal Farm was put - when I was growing up, we were never told that Orwell was a socialist and that it was not a polemic against socialism but a polemic against Stalinism.
I think Lord of the Flies fits very well with this basically conservative, pessimistic trajectory - a trajectory which appeals the most strongly to people who are already doing very nicely, or people who may be broke but come from class and money, since if everyone becomes equal, it won't really matter that much that they have a good accent, etc.
I'd say that The Cheese Stands Alone and all the other Cormier books are a late form of this tendency - still conservative but willing to locate more of the critique as a political critique of authority. But even there, the message is "authority will crush you, most of your peers are group thinkers who will hurt you and you do basically stand alone". Decency is always individual, never collective or rooted in solidarity, and there is very little history. What history there is shows only bad things - there's no mention of better times or ways.
2. These were the "best" and most popular books to recommend to kids and include in gifted programs when I was growing up. I read umpteen gazillion of them, and they were not good for me. They're strongly ideological in a way that is particularly pointless for children - why reiterate to schoolchildren that the truth of the world is that children are evil and cruel and that this cannot change? As I've mentioned elsewhere here, I was bullied a lot as a kid - but I also wonder whether I might have reacted differently to my experiences if I hadn't been told so often that kids are horrible and cruel, that they unite to hurt the outsiders, that having glasses or being physically non-standard in some way does not just create a potential for bullying but pretty much guarantees that you'll be hurt or killed. And of course, my peers also got repeated messages that bullying was natural and inevitable, etc.
3. I don't think that bullying is more natural or inevitable than other negative human behaviors - that is, people have the potential to be kind of shitty, just like they have the potential to be kind of great, and it's the social structures around them which bring out their behavior. For instance, I took it as absolutely standard 100% universally true that if you were fat and poor, you would have no friends, you'd be a universal outcast and certainly never date, because this was what I saw around me. And yet, one of my friends from college, who was also fat and poor and who was bullied as well, had a vast high school social circle, lots of boyfriends and a totally different experience than I'd had, because her social milieu was different. And some of my extended family, who went to hippie, city and/or Montessori schools and who were also fat and poor didn't even really get bullied. They experienced normal kid conflict which was sometimes mean, but none of the stereotypical American stuff.
Because I don't think that cruelty is more hard-wired than kindness, I think that writing books about how terrible people are is an ideological choice - you might as well write a utopia.
3. I think adults like to believe that kids are inherently shitty because it lets adults off the hook. It's not the adults' fault for letting kids go hungry and ill-housed, or for providing extremely marginal schools and few teachers, or for modeling in their own lives greed and cruelty - it's just human nature! And of course, intervention won't do much and will just keep kids from learning about the "real world".
To return to Orwell for a moment - deeply flawed man though he was, he was no fool about socialism, and he famously said that the point was not to make society perfect, but to make it better. Intervening to help children and refusing these poison narratives about intrinsic human cruelty won't make everything sunshine and roses but it will certainly be better than the whole "the Piggys and Simons of the world will inevitably be hated and killed because Kids".
(I read "The Destructors" as a fourth grader in a gifted books program. If you've not read it, it's a story by Graham Greene (I really don't like Graham Greene, actually) about a group of kids in post-war London. The merely proletarian kids are petty vandals and criminals, but a fallen member of the bourgeoisie, who is really malign, leads them to destroy a historic house owned by a not-actually-that-bad grumpy old guy. I mean, they destroy it - they gut the inside and weaken the structure so that it falls apart while they keep the old man a prisoner. And they do it for vague reasons of hatred and evil - the owner isn't rich or terrible, just grumpy and weird. They do it without understanding how they're destroying the guy's life - except for the evil kid. The story ends with the now-homeless old guy looking at the rubble and a working class man laughing at him. It's obviously about, like, England and class and Post-War Youth (and I think it's about hatred of the rising welfare state, as a subtext). But when I was nine, it scared the hell out of me, because it made me afraid that my classmates would do that to my house because they hated me - a hatred to which they'd been primed, of course, and which I assumed to be permanent and total instead of fluctuating. What I took from that story as a child was that people could come in and destroy your life and no one would do anything, and others would laugh. It's a dumb story, actually, in a particular "classy midcentury Anglophone writing" way.
As I say, I sometimes wonder whether, if I'd thought of being bullied as something that some kids did sometimes rather than as the verdict of all my peers on me forever, whether I might have been able to break out of the cycle. In retrospect, I don't think that everyone around me hated me and bullied me - but the narrative that I heard over and over again was "among children, a few kids will always be total outcasts that everyone hates, and there's nothing you can do about it".
posted by Frowner at 7:49 AM on September 1, 2017 [18 favorites]
It's an inherently conservative gesture, and very much "human evil doesn't come from material causes that can be addressed but rather from intrinsic horribleness, therefore social change is useless". You can see this by the uses to which Animal Farm was put - when I was growing up, we were never told that Orwell was a socialist and that it was not a polemic against socialism but a polemic against Stalinism.
I think Lord of the Flies fits very well with this basically conservative, pessimistic trajectory - a trajectory which appeals the most strongly to people who are already doing very nicely, or people who may be broke but come from class and money, since if everyone becomes equal, it won't really matter that much that they have a good accent, etc.
I'd say that The Cheese Stands Alone and all the other Cormier books are a late form of this tendency - still conservative but willing to locate more of the critique as a political critique of authority. But even there, the message is "authority will crush you, most of your peers are group thinkers who will hurt you and you do basically stand alone". Decency is always individual, never collective or rooted in solidarity, and there is very little history. What history there is shows only bad things - there's no mention of better times or ways.
2. These were the "best" and most popular books to recommend to kids and include in gifted programs when I was growing up. I read umpteen gazillion of them, and they were not good for me. They're strongly ideological in a way that is particularly pointless for children - why reiterate to schoolchildren that the truth of the world is that children are evil and cruel and that this cannot change? As I've mentioned elsewhere here, I was bullied a lot as a kid - but I also wonder whether I might have reacted differently to my experiences if I hadn't been told so often that kids are horrible and cruel, that they unite to hurt the outsiders, that having glasses or being physically non-standard in some way does not just create a potential for bullying but pretty much guarantees that you'll be hurt or killed. And of course, my peers also got repeated messages that bullying was natural and inevitable, etc.
3. I don't think that bullying is more natural or inevitable than other negative human behaviors - that is, people have the potential to be kind of shitty, just like they have the potential to be kind of great, and it's the social structures around them which bring out their behavior. For instance, I took it as absolutely standard 100% universally true that if you were fat and poor, you would have no friends, you'd be a universal outcast and certainly never date, because this was what I saw around me. And yet, one of my friends from college, who was also fat and poor and who was bullied as well, had a vast high school social circle, lots of boyfriends and a totally different experience than I'd had, because her social milieu was different. And some of my extended family, who went to hippie, city and/or Montessori schools and who were also fat and poor didn't even really get bullied. They experienced normal kid conflict which was sometimes mean, but none of the stereotypical American stuff.
Because I don't think that cruelty is more hard-wired than kindness, I think that writing books about how terrible people are is an ideological choice - you might as well write a utopia.
3. I think adults like to believe that kids are inherently shitty because it lets adults off the hook. It's not the adults' fault for letting kids go hungry and ill-housed, or for providing extremely marginal schools and few teachers, or for modeling in their own lives greed and cruelty - it's just human nature! And of course, intervention won't do much and will just keep kids from learning about the "real world".
To return to Orwell for a moment - deeply flawed man though he was, he was no fool about socialism, and he famously said that the point was not to make society perfect, but to make it better. Intervening to help children and refusing these poison narratives about intrinsic human cruelty won't make everything sunshine and roses but it will certainly be better than the whole "the Piggys and Simons of the world will inevitably be hated and killed because Kids".
(I read "The Destructors" as a fourth grader in a gifted books program. If you've not read it, it's a story by Graham Greene (I really don't like Graham Greene, actually) about a group of kids in post-war London. The merely proletarian kids are petty vandals and criminals, but a fallen member of the bourgeoisie, who is really malign, leads them to destroy a historic house owned by a not-actually-that-bad grumpy old guy. I mean, they destroy it - they gut the inside and weaken the structure so that it falls apart while they keep the old man a prisoner. And they do it for vague reasons of hatred and evil - the owner isn't rich or terrible, just grumpy and weird. They do it without understanding how they're destroying the guy's life - except for the evil kid. The story ends with the now-homeless old guy looking at the rubble and a working class man laughing at him. It's obviously about, like, England and class and Post-War Youth (and I think it's about hatred of the rising welfare state, as a subtext). But when I was nine, it scared the hell out of me, because it made me afraid that my classmates would do that to my house because they hated me - a hatred to which they'd been primed, of course, and which I assumed to be permanent and total instead of fluctuating. What I took from that story as a child was that people could come in and destroy your life and no one would do anything, and others would laugh. It's a dumb story, actually, in a particular "classy midcentury Anglophone writing" way.
As I say, I sometimes wonder whether, if I'd thought of being bullied as something that some kids did sometimes rather than as the verdict of all my peers on me forever, whether I might have been able to break out of the cycle. In retrospect, I don't think that everyone around me hated me and bullied me - but the narrative that I heard over and over again was "among children, a few kids will always be total outcasts that everyone hates, and there's nothing you can do about it".
posted by Frowner at 7:49 AM on September 1, 2017 [18 favorites]
Frowner, that is really interesting to me in contrast with my experience. In our "gifted" program we read a number of dystopia novels (I think we just watched a film version of Lord of the Flies, and like others, I found it grotesque and awful and not at all enlightening). But my teachers really emphasized "this is author X's viewpoint" so rather than presenting it as an insight into human nature, it was "in their time and place, this author saw a bunch of stuff and it informed their writing, producing this book". We were free and encouraged to disagree with them.
We also read a lot of books by authors who were not white Englishmen so the view was much more broad and made it seem like the world could move in a hundred different ways depending on your time and place. The effect on me (combined with youthful idealism) was that I was like yes! I am totally going to stand up for marginalized people! So I was as inclusive and accepting as possible of less accepted kids (in a very imperfect way, of course) and I stood up to bullies. I think at least some of that came from this exposure to all sorts of stories - I definitely had a view that the world is made and doesn't just exist without our input. So I wanted to be a force for good.
I think adults like to believe that kids are inherently shitty because it lets adults off the hook. Excellent point.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:13 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
We also read a lot of books by authors who were not white Englishmen so the view was much more broad and made it seem like the world could move in a hundred different ways depending on your time and place. The effect on me (combined with youthful idealism) was that I was like yes! I am totally going to stand up for marginalized people! So I was as inclusive and accepting as possible of less accepted kids (in a very imperfect way, of course) and I stood up to bullies. I think at least some of that came from this exposure to all sorts of stories - I definitely had a view that the world is made and doesn't just exist without our input. So I wanted to be a force for good.
I think adults like to believe that kids are inherently shitty because it lets adults off the hook. Excellent point.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:13 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
In my experience guest teaching in middle schools bully is almost always a verb not a person.
Allision says something shitty, but maybe accidental to Tim, Allison is just trying to be funny, Tim's friend Jayden says something worse in retaliation to Allison and all her friends, one of those friends Madison really goes hard and slurs Tim and Jayden's group but in a way that compares them negatively to Aiden and Kyle who up to this point were quiet bystanders . Kyle, a defender of the introverted Aiden, says something out and out threatening and demeaning to the lot of them. Olivia (of clan Allison) feeling very hurt and defensive calls Kyle a homophobic slur because of his protectiveness of Aiden... and Scene!
All these kids go home, all feeling bullied, all feeling small and bitter and outcast. None feeling like they did any bullying themselves but all feeling the victim. But there is no Nelsen Muntz in the room, no budding sociopath, just a bunch of kids struggling to be cruel and struggling to be kind.
Lord of the Flies is an "I'm making a point!" book largely a refutation of "The Coral Island" in which 3 similarly named boys are heroes and their Britishness, Christenness, and Pluckiness redeem or defeat the savage wilderness and people they encounter. It's a love letter to benevolent imperialism. LotF is basically just yelling "NO" back at that immensely popular book. I don't think it's a predictive or sociologically accurate work.
posted by French Fry at 8:36 AM on September 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
Allision says something shitty, but maybe accidental to Tim, Allison is just trying to be funny, Tim's friend Jayden says something worse in retaliation to Allison and all her friends, one of those friends Madison really goes hard and slurs Tim and Jayden's group but in a way that compares them negatively to Aiden and Kyle who up to this point were quiet bystanders . Kyle, a defender of the introverted Aiden, says something out and out threatening and demeaning to the lot of them. Olivia (of clan Allison) feeling very hurt and defensive calls Kyle a homophobic slur because of his protectiveness of Aiden... and Scene!
All these kids go home, all feeling bullied, all feeling small and bitter and outcast. None feeling like they did any bullying themselves but all feeling the victim. But there is no Nelsen Muntz in the room, no budding sociopath, just a bunch of kids struggling to be cruel and struggling to be kind.
Lord of the Flies is an "I'm making a point!" book largely a refutation of "The Coral Island" in which 3 similarly named boys are heroes and their Britishness, Christenness, and Pluckiness redeem or defeat the savage wilderness and people they encounter. It's a love letter to benevolent imperialism. LotF is basically just yelling "NO" back at that immensely popular book. I don't think it's a predictive or sociologically accurate work.
posted by French Fry at 8:36 AM on September 1, 2017 [6 favorites]
I've been thinking about this and I feel the main reason something like this wouldn't work is the group is too big for a female Jack, to really take power. Men's relationships with each other, even as children, seem to be more hierarchical. This can make them more stable but it also allows for a Jack to rise to power.
Women, on the other hand, are raised to see each other as competition and even girls pick up on this. This has many downsides but it also means relationship lack the strict hierarchy that men's relationships can have and would make it tough for a Jacqueline to hold power as the group gets bigger and those who are unhappy with the status quo find others to join them. There's a reason those Hollywood mean girl cliques never get much bigger than three or four girls.
In a girls Lord of the Flies there'd be three or four different camps and their alliances with each other would be changing regularly. They'd still be assholes but it would be more Survivor and less actually killing each other. And I think Jacqueline would have as much chance of being a target as time went on as Piggy.
posted by asteria at 9:20 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Women, on the other hand, are raised to see each other as competition and even girls pick up on this. This has many downsides but it also means relationship lack the strict hierarchy that men's relationships can have and would make it tough for a Jacqueline to hold power as the group gets bigger and those who are unhappy with the status quo find others to join them. There's a reason those Hollywood mean girl cliques never get much bigger than three or four girls.
In a girls Lord of the Flies there'd be three or four different camps and their alliances with each other would be changing regularly. They'd still be assholes but it would be more Survivor and less actually killing each other. And I think Jacqueline would have as much chance of being a target as time went on as Piggy.
posted by asteria at 9:20 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Frowner: I'd say that The Cheese Stands Alone and all the other Cormier books are a late form of this tendency - still conservative but willing to locate more of the critique as a political critique of authority. But even there, the message is "authority will crush you, most of your peers are group thinkers who will hurt you and you do basically stand alone". Decency is always individual, never collective or rooted in solidarity, and there is very little history. What history there is shows only bad things - there's no mention of better times or ways.
I'm guessing that you really meant The Chocolate War (there is a Cormier book titled I Am the Cheese, which got its title from "The Farmer in the Dell", but that's not pertinent to peer bullying as The Chocolate War is). One thing that makes that book different from LotF is that alpha-bully Archie and his creepy secret society the Vigil are sustained in part by Brother Leon, the vice-principal who is driving the chocolate fundraiser and intends to be the new headmaster. As a kid, I used to wonder why (and be grateful for the fact that) there was no organization like the Vigil at my school, and it wasn't until this discussion that I realized why: it's really not possible without the implicit and active support of the adults who have way more power than any kid.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:32 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm guessing that you really meant The Chocolate War (there is a Cormier book titled I Am the Cheese, which got its title from "The Farmer in the Dell", but that's not pertinent to peer bullying as The Chocolate War is). One thing that makes that book different from LotF is that alpha-bully Archie and his creepy secret society the Vigil are sustained in part by Brother Leon, the vice-principal who is driving the chocolate fundraiser and intends to be the new headmaster. As a kid, I used to wonder why (and be grateful for the fact that) there was no organization like the Vigil at my school, and it wasn't until this discussion that I realized why: it's really not possible without the implicit and active support of the adults who have way more power than any kid.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:32 AM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry but I think some people might be leaning a bit too hard on the inspiration as interpretation model for the effect or possible meanings of the book. It isn't at all to deny the validity of what's being suggested, as Coral Island, the British school system and attitudes of the era specifically were certainly the inspiration, but that model carried beyond the specific circumstance and found further parallels to the workings of violence and resistance more widely.
Such effects don't just come from a certain small group of English public schools, but find analog throughout the world anyplace when some few make use of their narcissism and strength to threaten or abuse the weak or to attempt to seize power for themselves. It isn't that most people are "bad" but neither are they necessarily willing to put themselves at risk to oppose abuse happening to others, instead they go with the flow, aligning themselves either with whoever promises to make their lives easier or, out of insecurity, to prevent their lives becoming harder by antagonism. The effect is largely the same whether its target is homely boys, minorities, women, immigrants, or anyone "other" than the majority. That the book made have had some specific references in mind doesn't remove the greater implications of its mini-society, which is why the book found such resonance even in areas far removed far the British school system.
At the same time, that's also why switching genders is such an iffy thing, it isn't that girls may not behave as badly as boys under the wrong set of circumstances, but that it misses connection to the more apt analogy so widely that it threatens to support actual bullies under the guise of a cautionary tale warning against them. In this instance, the parallel would be between those already more likely to be abused and those who actually commit the abuses, which is, to say the least, a difficult parallel to make. In a time where Jacks and Rogers already have so much control, making a movie that points to young girls and hints that they are possibly just as bad would be feckless at best.
(None of that is to suggest that anyone was supporting a switch in that manner, as I know they weren't, I was merely expanding on the larger notion of the book's potential relevance beyond its inspiration and the reasonable concern over this movie.)
posted by gusottertrout at 9:34 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Such effects don't just come from a certain small group of English public schools, but find analog throughout the world anyplace when some few make use of their narcissism and strength to threaten or abuse the weak or to attempt to seize power for themselves. It isn't that most people are "bad" but neither are they necessarily willing to put themselves at risk to oppose abuse happening to others, instead they go with the flow, aligning themselves either with whoever promises to make their lives easier or, out of insecurity, to prevent their lives becoming harder by antagonism. The effect is largely the same whether its target is homely boys, minorities, women, immigrants, or anyone "other" than the majority. That the book made have had some specific references in mind doesn't remove the greater implications of its mini-society, which is why the book found such resonance even in areas far removed far the British school system.
At the same time, that's also why switching genders is such an iffy thing, it isn't that girls may not behave as badly as boys under the wrong set of circumstances, but that it misses connection to the more apt analogy so widely that it threatens to support actual bullies under the guise of a cautionary tale warning against them. In this instance, the parallel would be between those already more likely to be abused and those who actually commit the abuses, which is, to say the least, a difficult parallel to make. In a time where Jacks and Rogers already have so much control, making a movie that points to young girls and hints that they are possibly just as bad would be feckless at best.
(None of that is to suggest that anyone was supporting a switch in that manner, as I know they weren't, I was merely expanding on the larger notion of the book's potential relevance beyond its inspiration and the reasonable concern over this movie.)
posted by gusottertrout at 9:34 AM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
2. These were the "best" and most popular books to recommend to kids and include in gifted programs when I was growing up.
There was indeed a bizarre amount of dystopic fiction in gifted programs when I was growing up, but I'm not sure how much of that was more down to "the 80s" than anything else. But you're totally right - it was fiction that at least conditioned you to tolerate nihilism, because if everything is going to be bad forever, why try? I think they hoped that it would inspire people to fight destruction, which in some cases maybe it did, but I'm not sure that was as unalloyed as they felt it was.
posted by corb at 10:11 AM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
There was indeed a bizarre amount of dystopic fiction in gifted programs when I was growing up, but I'm not sure how much of that was more down to "the 80s" than anything else. But you're totally right - it was fiction that at least conditioned you to tolerate nihilism, because if everything is going to be bad forever, why try? I think they hoped that it would inspire people to fight destruction, which in some cases maybe it did, but I'm not sure that was as unalloyed as they felt it was.
posted by corb at 10:11 AM on September 1, 2017 [3 favorites]
Plenty of ham-handed dystopic fiction in 90s classrooms too. Lord of the Flies, The Scarlet Letter, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, The Jungle, Farenheit 451, Of Mice and Men, The Giver… all of those are books I was made to read at one point or another. Bleh to all of them. Even as a high schooler I found them insultingly unsubtle and preachy. Not a believable character to be found in any of them, except maybe Of Mice and Men. (I still have a soft spot for George and Lenny.) They all just came across as the author taking 200 pages to make a (frequently pretty dubious) point that could have been dealt with in a five-paragraph essay.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:45 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 12:45 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: Lord of the Lady Flies
Oh dear, they are at it again. There is going to be an all-female reboot of “Lord of the Flies,” written by two men. I am not optimistic. What follows are some scenes that I assume will inevitably be included.posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:11 PM on September 1, 2017 [8 favorites]
Within seconds of landing on the island, everyone is in a bikini and covered in mud. Somehow, it accentuates their cheekbones.
Piggy finds a conch. They use it … to decorate.
Everyone is still stunned when Piggy’s glasses break: stunned that behind them, Piggy was really beautiful all this time. Piggy is played by Anne Hathaway.
“Ladies,” Jackie says, seizing the conch, “I have an important announcement. I think we should hunt. All we need to do is pretend the pigs on this island are BARGAINS!” Everyone cheers, even Ralpha. She loves to shop.
Roger uses the charred remnants of the plane to tweeze her eyebrows.
No one is chief because a woman can’t be chief, duh.
Libba Bray (who wrote Beauty Queens, which is mentioned upthread) has a great response to this announcement, specifically detailing issues that she's run into with potential adaptations of her work.
All of it is worth reading, but here's a strong pull quote:
All of it is worth reading, but here's a strong pull quote:
That’s what I long for: movies and TV shows with complicated women who have rich inner lives, flaws, strengths, surprises, and frustrations. Women with doubts, fears, longings, petty moments, and philosophical and existential struggles just like those Romanticized Smoking French Dudes™ and Bukowski Wannabes™ are allowed to have. Women who get their periods in the grocery store and have to go into the sketchy back bathroom/mop closet so they can shove a wad of purse-Kleenex into their panties. Women who don’t always know what to say to their spouses or kids because they fear if they let it out, there’ll be no stopping the vomitous flow they hold back most of the time. Women who fantasize about sex with strangers on the bus because they’re bored and it’s a way to pass 10 minutes. Women advised to “try shopping at Chico’s!” who respond, “Why? Did my vagina die in the night?” Women trying to get taken seriously at a professional party full of dick. Women who have to mirror-pep talk themselves into doing what feels scary. Women who drop everything and race for a cab when a friend texts, “It’s cancer.” Women like all of the women I personally know.posted by JustKeepSwimming at 5:12 PM on September 1, 2017 [10 favorites]
Jesus, is that so hard? No, really. I am seriously, seriously asking here. Why. Is. That. So. Hard?
1. There's this very strong mid-century Anglophone tendency toward both "children are Naturally Evil, that's where evil comes from" and "let's write about children as a metaphor for human evil". I surmise that this is both a response to post-war upheaval and an anti-communist gesture.
Interesting (and a terrific comment). I tend to think of LotF as a thought experiment about Locke vs. Hobbes' assumptions about human nature. After all, both of them rest all of their reasoning on premises about human nature, and so much other political and social theory sits on similar foundations. The problem, of course, is that we know fuck-all about human nature (including whether it even really exists). In fact, if we're honest, we know like three things about our inherent psychology: we're hard-wired for language (Chomsky/Pinker), math (Dehane), and a rudimentary kernel of morality (Wynn).
As an educator, I like to teach LotF as a "training-wheels" introduction to lens analyses--it's great for "my first Freudian read" and the sort of Locke/Hobbes thing I did above (actually, that's a lie. I don't like to teach it at all, and haven't for years). Seen through the latter lens, of course, Golding comes down on the side of Hobbes (until external authority arrives in the form of the soldiers, the castaways' lives are indeed nasty, brutish, and short, and their inchoate attempt at civilization quickly descend into bellum omnium contra omnes.
But it's fucking idiotic to take any real lessons about human nature from the book; it's a fucking thought experiment, after all, and takes place entirely inside the head of William Golding. It supports/proves/suggests nothing. It's a fucking novel.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:26 PM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Interesting (and a terrific comment). I tend to think of LotF as a thought experiment about Locke vs. Hobbes' assumptions about human nature. After all, both of them rest all of their reasoning on premises about human nature, and so much other political and social theory sits on similar foundations. The problem, of course, is that we know fuck-all about human nature (including whether it even really exists). In fact, if we're honest, we know like three things about our inherent psychology: we're hard-wired for language (Chomsky/Pinker), math (Dehane), and a rudimentary kernel of morality (Wynn).
As an educator, I like to teach LotF as a "training-wheels" introduction to lens analyses--it's great for "my first Freudian read" and the sort of Locke/Hobbes thing I did above (actually, that's a lie. I don't like to teach it at all, and haven't for years). Seen through the latter lens, of course, Golding comes down on the side of Hobbes (until external authority arrives in the form of the soldiers, the castaways' lives are indeed nasty, brutish, and short, and their inchoate attempt at civilization quickly descend into bellum omnium contra omnes.
But it's fucking idiotic to take any real lessons about human nature from the book; it's a fucking thought experiment, after all, and takes place entirely inside the head of William Golding. It supports/proves/suggests nothing. It's a fucking novel.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 5:26 PM on September 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
The Atlantic excerpts were wonderful
posted by Cozybee at 11:57 AM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Cozybee at 11:57 AM on September 7, 2017 [6 favorites]
Cozybee, I think that Riane Konc is my new favorite humorist. From her "The Ed Hardy Boys":
Aunt Gertrude sighed. “I’m telling you I can hear you, and you’re being too loud.”posted by Halloween Jack at 8:33 AM on September 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
“Prove it!” Edward screamed.
“Yeah—links, please!” Ed bellowed.
Aunt Gertrude sighed and went outside. The front door slammed.
The brothers were silent for a minute.
“I’m afraid of women,” Ed whispered.
“Me, too,” said Edward.
They sat in silence for a long time.
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posted by barchan at 9:59 AM on August 31, 2017 [88 favorites]