From E. E. “Doc” Smith to Yoon Ha Lee
March 27, 2018 9:40 AM Subscribe
Hey, they mentioned On A Red Station, Drifting, by Aliette de Bodard, which is one of my favorites! (Partly because it riffs a little on The Story of the Stone/Dream of the Red Chamber, which is one of the major classical Chinese novels and (in translation) another favorite of mine).
posted by Frowner at 9:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:49 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Old Man’s War, by John Scalzi
Humanity reaches the stars but finds them a battlefield over scarce resources. Earth’s Colonial Defense Force recruits experienced individuals over 65, gives them new, better bodies, and throws them into battle.
Great News! You're Essential John!
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:54 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Humanity reaches the stars but finds them a battlefield over scarce resources. Earth’s Colonial Defense Force recruits experienced individuals over 65, gives them new, better bodies, and throws them into battle.
Great News! You're Essential John!
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:54 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
There are a couple of truly execrable choices in that list (Donaldson's sadistic, poorly-written Gap Cycle being one of them).
posted by pipeski at 9:55 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by pipeski at 9:55 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
That's a pretty solid line-up of space operas. I like a bunch of the ones I've read and I think I've got some things to add to my 'read this eventually' list. (I read some of Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" books, so I think I'll pass on his space opera. And while I'm nitpicking: The cover art included for "Take Back Plenty" is ... questionable in its anatomical design.)
posted by rmd1023 at 9:59 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by rmd1023 at 9:59 AM on March 27, 2018
Needs more Banks.
I'll stand by Ninefox Gamble and The Stars Are Legion as choices, both awesome, very distinctive books. The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet is of course a joy.
Err... is Three Body Problem really Space Opera? I have to admit, I got bored and bailed on it, but it seemed to be some VR conspiracy business in the parts I got up to.
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'll stand by Ninefox Gamble and The Stars Are Legion as choices, both awesome, very distinctive books. The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet is of course a joy.
Err... is Three Body Problem really Space Opera? I have to admit, I got bored and bailed on it, but it seemed to be some VR conspiracy business in the parts I got up to.
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Err... is Three Body Problem really Space Opera?
yes
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:02 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
yes
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:02 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
....I totally forgot about The Snow Queen, which I read at about eleven (I had outread all the recommendations that our local town librarian usually made to kids and she gave up and let me fend for myself). I remember only that there was "a lot" of sex, which I vaguely thought maybe I shouldn't be reading. But that double-planet, season-shift plot with clones and hunting mermen? Nope, I didn't remember it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Andre Norton's Witch World books were favorites of mine, many years ago.
They are not even remotely Space Opera.
posted by librosegretti at 10:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
They are not even remotely Space Opera.
posted by librosegretti at 10:05 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Any list of books someone should read that includes a title by Lois McMaster Bujold, especially the sub-Twilight nonsense that is Shards of Honor, is automatically somewhat suspect.
But then these things always are like that. Some good books on there. Some terrible ones.
posted by auntie-matter at 10:08 AM on March 27, 2018
But then these things always are like that. Some good books on there. Some terrible ones.
posted by auntie-matter at 10:08 AM on March 27, 2018
That list is full of terrible typos.
Any list of books someone should read that includes a title by Lois McMaster Bujold, especially the sub-Twilight nonsense that is Shards of Honor
... the first volume of the multi-award-winning Vorkosigan series?
I get that not everyone loves Bujold, but claiming that Bujold cannot meet the literary standard of Stephanie Meyer? Citation frelling needed.
posted by suelac at 10:11 AM on March 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
Any list of books someone should read that includes a title by Lois McMaster Bujold, especially the sub-Twilight nonsense that is Shards of Honor
... the first volume of the multi-award-winning Vorkosigan series?
I get that not everyone loves Bujold, but claiming that Bujold cannot meet the literary standard of Stephanie Meyer? Citation frelling needed.
posted by suelac at 10:11 AM on March 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
Err... is Three Body Problem really Space Opera?
yes
Possibly I got less far than I thought and it seemed to be building up to a contact story but should it have spaceships and stuff?
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on March 27, 2018
yes
Possibly I got less far than I thought and it seemed to be building up to a contact story but should it have spaceships and stuff?
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on March 27, 2018
Perhaps you could debate the space operaticness of The Three Body Problem itself but the sequels are certainly well within the zone.
posted by AndrewStephens at 10:16 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by AndrewStephens at 10:16 AM on March 27, 2018
Possibly I got less far than I thought and it seemed to be building up to a contact story but should it have spaceships and stuff?
I suppose it depends on how you define space opera... it's not Star Wars for instance but I'd say it counts. Just say that - avoiding spoilers - it's starts as one kind of book then... takes a bit of swerve.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:17 AM on March 27, 2018
I suppose it depends on how you define space opera... it's not Star Wars for instance but I'd say it counts. Just say that - avoiding spoilers - it's starts as one kind of book then... takes a bit of swerve.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:17 AM on March 27, 2018
Speaking of the Three Body Problem, Amazon may pay a lot of money to adapt it.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:18 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by rmd1023 at 10:18 AM on March 27, 2018
Man, I have read two upcoming space operas that are so freaking good that I am annoyed I can't make you all read them yet. But in service of the latter, I can heartily recommend the underloved and super-weird Jacob's Ladder trilogy, which is a generation-ship story spliced with Arthurian romance, except not the way you're thinking of. (I vastly prefer the original titles, available in the UK only, and think that the American titles, which cut out the nuanced wordplay, are a perfect symbol of why they didn't do terribly well. The publisher wanted something way simpler and more straightforward, and that's... that's not these books.)
posted by restless_nomad at 10:19 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:19 AM on March 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; dismissing something as too woman-y has some (pretty obvious) baggage, take some care with that kind of thing?
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:28 AM on March 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:28 AM on March 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
The desert planet Dune is the sole source of the spice melange that is the basis for interstellar travel. Paul Atreides, the young son of a Duke, is caught up in the battle for the control of that planet and its spice. When Paul becomes the leader of Dune’s Fremen, he threatens the empire and alters the course of human history. A few more books followed.
Emphasis mine. Only Dune deserves such shade being thrown.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:32 AM on March 27, 2018 [17 favorites]
Emphasis mine. Only Dune deserves such shade being thrown.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:32 AM on March 27, 2018 [17 favorites]
Judging by the books included on the list that I have read, I probably better read more essential space operas. Three Body Problem, Ninefox Gambit, and the Ancillary Series are all excellent.
posted by graventy at 10:32 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by graventy at 10:32 AM on March 27, 2018
I loved Ninefox Gambit (and the sequel, Revenant Gun) so much, and offer you this tweet from the author as an indication of whether this is something that you, too, might enjoy.
[Link goes to a tweet from Yoon Ha Lee's account, text reads: "That moment when you're writing a secondary sci-fantasy world (hexarchate) and you need to say "non-Euclidean" but they didn't have *Euclid* :3"]
posted by quaking fajita at 10:35 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
[Link goes to a tweet from Yoon Ha Lee's account, text reads: "That moment when you're writing a secondary sci-fantasy world (hexarchate) and you need to say "non-Euclidean" but they didn't have *Euclid* :3"]
posted by quaking fajita at 10:35 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
LobsterMitten, I don't think I made my comment clear enough, apologies.
My intent was to comment on the overtly sexist and cliche nature of the text as it was written, not dismissing it as being "too woman-y for my tastes" (I'm assuming that's what you thought I was saying).
posted by auntie-matter at 10:41 AM on March 27, 2018
My intent was to comment on the overtly sexist and cliche nature of the text as it was written, not dismissing it as being "too woman-y for my tastes" (I'm assuming that's what you thought I was saying).
posted by auntie-matter at 10:41 AM on March 27, 2018
The list mentioned a few that look interesting to me. Any Mefi takes on the following? I tend to lean towards older sci-fi as it seems a bit more... essential, if that word fits at all. Perhaps simplistic, with all it's faults that I've started to notice in the last 10 years of having actual hindsight, is a better word. Anyway, my takeaways that I'd like your opinions on:
Witch World
Cities in Flight
The Stars my Destination - I know, I know, I don't think I've ever read this but if I have I'll know after picking it up and perusing through the first chapter.
The Big Jump
First Lensman
Anywho, thanks for the post. As far as lists go it's spurred some interest from me anyway.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:41 AM on March 27, 2018
Witch World
Cities in Flight
The Stars my Destination - I know, I know, I don't think I've ever read this but if I have I'll know after picking it up and perusing through the first chapter.
The Big Jump
First Lensman
Anywho, thanks for the post. As far as lists go it's spurred some interest from me anyway.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:41 AM on March 27, 2018
I'm wading into this thread to ask for a good place to start.
I've not read space opera. I do read big epic fantasy novels, but these days I'm mostly reading historical mysteries, smaller non-epic fantasy novels, Seanan McGuire (wherever we place her in the genre bucket), and some historical romances (more on the Courtney Milan end of the spectrum).
However, I tend to love space opera on screen. I adore Battlestar Galactica reboot and my biggest fictional crush is Laura Roslin. I'm really digging the new installments of Star Wars.
I need my characters to be well-drawn and female characters need to come in shades other than pink or black. Where I've stopped in science fiction before is when the fiction becomes more about the technology or the science instead of the people. I like non-fiction for my science reading. I've also stopped things because I was frustrated about gender issues. And the more frustrated I get with gender issues the more I want to retreat into other genres.
I do want to branch out -- is there a good place to start?
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 10:41 AM on March 27, 2018
I've not read space opera. I do read big epic fantasy novels, but these days I'm mostly reading historical mysteries, smaller non-epic fantasy novels, Seanan McGuire (wherever we place her in the genre bucket), and some historical romances (more on the Courtney Milan end of the spectrum).
However, I tend to love space opera on screen. I adore Battlestar Galactica reboot and my biggest fictional crush is Laura Roslin. I'm really digging the new installments of Star Wars.
I need my characters to be well-drawn and female characters need to come in shades other than pink or black. Where I've stopped in science fiction before is when the fiction becomes more about the technology or the science instead of the people. I like non-fiction for my science reading. I've also stopped things because I was frustrated about gender issues. And the more frustrated I get with gender issues the more I want to retreat into other genres.
I do want to branch out -- is there a good place to start?
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 10:41 AM on March 27, 2018
I love The Stars My Destination by Alfred Bester but it's so short. More of a Space Operetta?
posted by Catblack at 10:42 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Catblack at 10:42 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Deeply amusing that a scifi post is contentious enough for deleted comments, anyway: Team Lensman
although not enough for a re-read, can't bear the probable disappointment
posted by sammyo at 10:43 AM on March 27, 2018
although not enough for a re-read, can't bear the probable disappointment
posted by sammyo at 10:43 AM on March 27, 2018
14 women. I'm honestly rather impressed, even if it trends a bit to recent writers. I was seriously expecting maybe 50 men and Ursula K LeGuin, as is traditional.
That said, Ursula K LeGuin should be on the list for her space opera novels.
HM Hoover: often neglected for being a YA author, had an incredible talent for depicting alien planets as ecosystems.
Catherine Aasaro: a rarity: a hard SF space opera author, including the Skolian Empire series.
Tanya Huff: her Valor Confederation series alone would qualify her.
Vonda McIntyre An under-remembered great from the 80s. Her Starfarers series, plus her stand alone works are good space opera.
Kristine Katherine Rusch her Diving Universe is excellent, and her stand alone work as well.
As for men :
H Beam Piper: Little Fuzzy alone should put him on the list. Also Space Vikings and Empire.
Poul Anderson: I don't even like him, and his Trader to the Stars stories should qualify him.
James Schmitz: his Telazney series and Hub series are excellent space opera.
Jack Vance: Again, very influential. His Planet of Adventure series, while problematic, is fun reading.
In order to make room for these guys, you can delete the Gap series and the incredibly Overrated Foundation mess.
posted by happyroach at 10:46 AM on March 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
That said, Ursula K LeGuin should be on the list for her space opera novels.
HM Hoover: often neglected for being a YA author, had an incredible talent for depicting alien planets as ecosystems.
Catherine Aasaro: a rarity: a hard SF space opera author, including the Skolian Empire series.
Tanya Huff: her Valor Confederation series alone would qualify her.
Vonda McIntyre An under-remembered great from the 80s. Her Starfarers series, plus her stand alone works are good space opera.
Kristine Katherine Rusch her Diving Universe is excellent, and her stand alone work as well.
As for men :
H Beam Piper: Little Fuzzy alone should put him on the list. Also Space Vikings and Empire.
Poul Anderson: I don't even like him, and his Trader to the Stars stories should qualify him.
James Schmitz: his Telazney series and Hub series are excellent space opera.
Jack Vance: Again, very influential. His Planet of Adventure series, while problematic, is fun reading.
In order to make room for these guys, you can delete the Gap series and the incredibly Overrated Foundation mess.
posted by happyroach at 10:46 AM on March 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
@JustKeepSwimming: While I wouldn't have thought to call Becky Chambers' Wayfarer books space opera, due to my personal -- and possibly not shared by anyone else -- imagining of "space opera" as the SF equivalent of *epic* fantasy (but In Space), that might be a good starting point for you, considering the other stuff you mention liking. She's got two books out in it so far and I think there's been talk of a third upcoming; the first I think is a little more Trek-y, but I liked the second better.
posted by inconstant at 10:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by inconstant at 10:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
The second is absolutely the better book but the first is very good.
posted by Artw at 10:50 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:50 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
JustKeepSwimming, start with Long Way to a Small Angry Planet (it's all character), Tanya Huff if you want fun, queer milSF (that's probably why she's not on the list, actually - it's *very* military scifi, not really space opera as such), Ancillary Justice if you want some interesting gender stuff. Generally stick to women writing in the last five years or so - that's when gender-thoughtful space opera started to get some traction, in large part due to the success of Ancillary Justice.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:51 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:51 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Judging by the books included on the list that I have read, I probably better read more essential space operas.
I think the list in TFA is a bit scattershot in terms of quality; I would recommend checking James Davis Nicoll's occasional series of core lists, including 20 Core Space Operas. (Frustratingly, he doesn't tag these lists in any way, so I was reduced to Googling "James Nicoll" core space opera.)
posted by suelac at 10:54 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think the list in TFA is a bit scattershot in terms of quality; I would recommend checking James Davis Nicoll's occasional series of core lists, including 20 Core Space Operas. (Frustratingly, he doesn't tag these lists in any way, so I was reduced to Googling "James Nicoll" core space opera.)
posted by suelac at 10:54 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
As an aside, I had no idea who this Honor Harrington was, and how popular the series was, until I went to the Shore Leave convention and saw that the series has its own fan club and people dress up in costumes and uniforms.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:55 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:55 AM on March 27, 2018
Oh, I’m just wrapping up my nth read of the Lensmen series. God I love me some classic space opera.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:56 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:56 AM on March 27, 2018
Any list of books someone should read that includes a title by Lois McMaster Bujold, especially the sub-Twilight nonsense that is Shards of Honor, is automatically somewhat suspect.
As someone who has read (and occasionally enjoyed) many terrible books, I can authoritatively state that any comment that rates Bujold below Meyer is similarly suspect.
posted by "mad dan" eccles at 10:56 AM on March 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
As someone who has read (and occasionally enjoyed) many terrible books, I can authoritatively state that any comment that rates Bujold below Meyer is similarly suspect.
posted by "mad dan" eccles at 10:56 AM on March 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
Ender's Game but no Cecelia Holland? C'mon.
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by The Bridge on the River Kai Ryssdal at 11:01 AM on March 27, 2018
Ender's Game but no Cecelia Holland? C'mon.
"Essential" is a very different criteria than "good".
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Essential" is a very different criteria than "good".
posted by GuyZero at 11:07 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I mean, man, EE Smith books are just not that good along pretty much every dimension of analysis. I'd still rate his work as essential because of it's place in the space opera timeline.
posted by GuyZero at 11:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by GuyZero at 11:08 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wait, the sequel is Raven Strategem. Revenant Gun isn't out yet. I haven't read it. Sadly.
posted by quaking fajita at 11:10 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by quaking fajita at 11:10 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I just found out space opera was a thing when I went looking for books similar to Vatta's War...I've read a few others on this list, I just didn't know it was a thing. This is excellent, I'm starting with the ones recommended as favorites on this thread!
posted by lemonade at 11:14 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by lemonade at 11:14 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
A quick ego-surf reveals that they couldn't even get the title of Singularity Sky right (there's no leading definite article).
posted by cstross at 11:20 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by cstross at 11:20 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Which of LeGuin's novels are considered space opera?
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 11:23 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by ALeaflikeStructure at 11:23 AM on March 27, 2018
Not every book set on a spaceship(s) is a "space opera". Ursula K LeGuin is unequivocally one of the very best but perhaps not in that category, or perhaps just a degree of literary quality a good ways above "<type> opera".
posted by sammyo at 11:26 AM on March 27, 2018
posted by sammyo at 11:26 AM on March 27, 2018
The past 5 or 6 scifi/fantasy series I've read have been good, but all seem to have the "evil empire and lone hero set out to overcome it" archetype. Several are on this list.
(I know series are par for the course, but I like one-off, even if they are longer, for some snobby reason)
Sadly, local library has maybe 1 out of 3 on this list, I was trying to pick the ones that weren't a series and not having much luck.
posted by k5.user at 11:30 AM on March 27, 2018
(I know series are par for the course, but I like one-off, even if they are longer, for some snobby reason)
Sadly, local library has maybe 1 out of 3 on this list, I was trying to pick the ones that weren't a series and not having much luck.
posted by k5.user at 11:30 AM on March 27, 2018
Team Lensman
Absolutely, but recommending First Lensman to new readers borders on malpractice. The original series started with Galactic Patrol, which introduces the main character of the series and starts the exponential expansion in scale that made the series famous. First Lensman was a prequel *spit* written years later, and it's not even the nominal "first book in the series" after its revision—that's Triplanetary.
posted by The Tensor at 11:30 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Absolutely, but recommending First Lensman to new readers borders on malpractice. The original series started with Galactic Patrol, which introduces the main character of the series and starts the exponential expansion in scale that made the series famous. First Lensman was a prequel *spit* written years later, and it's not even the nominal "first book in the series" after its revision—that's Triplanetary.
posted by The Tensor at 11:30 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Which of LeGuin's novels are considered space opera?
A lot of her earlier stuff was straight up space opera. The main example being the Hainish books.
posted by Naberius at 11:36 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
A lot of her earlier stuff was straight up space opera. The main example being the Hainish books.
posted by Naberius at 11:36 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Cherryh's Chanur series seems a lot more space-operatic to me than Cyteen does. Also more fun. Also an early entry in gender re-analysis.
posted by clew at 11:39 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 11:39 AM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Alas, no love for John Clute's Appleseed.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:42 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 11:42 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I just got done reading LeGuin's _City of Illusion_. That book feels by far the most space opera-y of any of her books that I've read, even compared to its predecessors in the Hainish books.
posted by billjings at 11:45 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by billjings at 11:45 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
If one were looking for truly fun space opera, one could do worse than Debra Doyle and James McDonald's Mageworlds series, which are fun and very Star Wars-ey. Epic scope, space battles, blasters, politics, and magic. Good stuff.
Somewhat more dense is Sherwood Smith and Dave Trowbridge's Exordium series, starting with Phoenix in Flight, which has politics and intrigue, space battles, scapegrace younger sons, plenty of alien species, and so forth. These were fairly recently rewritten from their first editions and have held up well.
Much of Elizabeth Moon's work would qualify as space opera, if you want space ships, multiple planets, complicated politics, and frequent space battles. I would say that the more recent series tend to overlap with mil-SF.
posted by suelac at 11:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Somewhat more dense is Sherwood Smith and Dave Trowbridge's Exordium series, starting with Phoenix in Flight, which has politics and intrigue, space battles, scapegrace younger sons, plenty of alien species, and so forth. These were fairly recently rewritten from their first editions and have held up well.
Much of Elizabeth Moon's work would qualify as space opera, if you want space ships, multiple planets, complicated politics, and frequent space battles. I would say that the more recent series tend to overlap with mil-SF.
posted by suelac at 11:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
A lot of her earlier stuff was straight up space opera. The main example being the Hainish books.
If "The Left Hand of Darkness" counts as space opera then I don't think the term has any meaning.
I think of space opera as "big" science fiction that is short on characterization beyond the broadly drawn archetypes and long on aliens, spaceships, enormous space lasers, action, and adventure, on a big scale. If it takes place on one planet, it's not space opera. One solar system probably isn't. One galaxy is more like it. Multiple galaxies? Oooooooh, now you are talking. THE ENTIRETY OF SPACE AND TIME YEAH BABY BRING IT ON!
If the term "thought provoking" is used to describe the book, it's not space opera.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
If "The Left Hand of Darkness" counts as space opera then I don't think the term has any meaning.
I think of space opera as "big" science fiction that is short on characterization beyond the broadly drawn archetypes and long on aliens, spaceships, enormous space lasers, action, and adventure, on a big scale. If it takes place on one planet, it's not space opera. One solar system probably isn't. One galaxy is more like it. Multiple galaxies? Oooooooh, now you are talking. THE ENTIRETY OF SPACE AND TIME YEAH BABY BRING IT ON!
If the term "thought provoking" is used to describe the book, it's not space opera.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 11:48 AM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I read Long Way to a Small Angry Planet and while I enjoy character-driven books, it just didn't scratch my itch. Then again, I'm a Banks fan and it pretty much is the inverse of Banks. I also had problems with The Stars are Legion. Very well written but just so weird and with such little science. I read the first Honor Harrington book and I recall the author, in the middle of the final chase, go off on a tangent explaining how his toy weapon worked in deep space and I about threw it across the room. I guess I'm just a little fussy.
Keep the recs coming. I've already ordered Ninefox Gambit.
posted by Ber at 11:55 AM on March 27, 2018
Keep the recs coming. I've already ordered Ninefox Gambit.
posted by Ber at 11:55 AM on March 27, 2018
Glad to see both notable "MeFi'sOwn" on the list (jscalzi and cstross), and I've always thought the premise to "Old Man's War" (senior soldiers) was a pretty direct response to "Ender's Game" (child soldiers). Still, I had a WHOLE lotta 'splaining to do when my 85-year-old WWII veteran father caught me reading "Old Man's War".
IMO, there is one famous example of 'space opera' absent from the list (and PLEASE don't kill me for this) ... "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:56 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
IMO, there is one famous example of 'space opera' absent from the list (and PLEASE don't kill me for this) ... "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:56 AM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
If the term "thought provoking" is used to describe the book, it's not space opera.
Ehhhh... I'm not a fan of genre definitions that diminish works within them. But "Space Opera" does imply an interplanatary adventure element with a lot of big action than I'm not sure I'd think of Left Hand (or my fave, The Dispossesed) as having.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on March 27, 2018
Ehhhh... I'm not a fan of genre definitions that diminish works within them. But "Space Opera" does imply an interplanatary adventure element with a lot of big action than I'm not sure I'd think of Left Hand (or my fave, The Dispossesed) as having.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on March 27, 2018
The list mentioned a few that look interesting to me. Any Mefi takes on the following?
First Lensman
First Lensman can stand on its own but it’s actually the second book of a series that starts with Triplanetary.
As far as I’m concerned the Lensmen series is the archetypal space opera. There have been many variations and quite a few improvements, but the source they all spring from is there.
The writing is passable and you get the rhythm of which paragraphs detailing the new Hyper Phaseloop Dura Cannon technology you can safely skip, but push come to shove it’s just a really good yarn.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:59 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
First Lensman
First Lensman can stand on its own but it’s actually the second book of a series that starts with Triplanetary.
As far as I’m concerned the Lensmen series is the archetypal space opera. There have been many variations and quite a few improvements, but the source they all spring from is there.
The writing is passable and you get the rhythm of which paragraphs detailing the new Hyper Phaseloop Dura Cannon technology you can safely skip, but push come to shove it’s just a really good yarn.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:59 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I never understood what the fuck Space Opera was supposed to be, but any list without Jack Vance may KINDLY DEPART.
(This list does the usual thing of seemingly pretending that women started writing SF 15 years ago or so. Try Phyllis Gotlieb if you're looking for something a bit different).
posted by selfnoise at 11:59 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
(This list does the usual thing of seemingly pretending that women started writing SF 15 years ago or so. Try Phyllis Gotlieb if you're looking for something a bit different).
posted by selfnoise at 11:59 AM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
City of Illusions was totally a covert reboot of Nowlan's Armageddon 2419 A.D.
posted by The Tensor at 12:00 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by The Tensor at 12:00 PM on March 27, 2018
You won't be getting much science in Ninefox Gambit if that's what you're going for, Ber. It's more "unexplained ritual cultivated from arcane mathematics". YHL does the plunge-right-in, not-all-is-for-explanation style of worldbuilding, not so much "sit and explain".
posted by inconstant at 12:01 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by inconstant at 12:01 PM on March 27, 2018
(This list does the usual thing of seemingly pretending that women started writing SF 15 years ago or so. Try Phyllis Gotlieb if you're looking for something a bit different).
To correct myself: the list has more women on it than I credited.
posted by selfnoise at 12:05 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
To correct myself: the list has more women on it than I credited.
posted by selfnoise at 12:05 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think of space opera as "big" science fiction that is short on characterization beyond the broadly drawn archetypes and long on aliens, spaceships, enormous space lasers, action, and adventure, on a big scale. If it takes place on one planet, it's not space opera. One solar system probably isn't. One galaxy is more like it. Multiple galaxies? Oooooooh, now you are talking. THE ENTIRETY OF SPACE AND TIME YEAH BABY BRING IT ON!
Go read _City of Illusion_! It's mostly on one planet, but there are:
* lightspeed travel ships,
* an implacable evil foe
* a mysterious hero who leaves home to find where he came from
* a journey filled with peril
* lightly characterized weirdos along the way
Sadly, it *IS* thought-provoking, and it *is* on one planet. But wasn't Dune when I first read it? And wasn't Dune mostly on one planet? QED, I'm right.
posted by billjings at 12:05 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Go read _City of Illusion_! It's mostly on one planet, but there are:
* lightspeed travel ships,
* an implacable evil foe
* a mysterious hero who leaves home to find where he came from
* a journey filled with peril
* lightly characterized weirdos along the way
Sadly, it *IS* thought-provoking, and it *is* on one planet. But wasn't Dune when I first read it? And wasn't Dune mostly on one planet? QED, I'm right.
posted by billjings at 12:05 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I never understood what the fuck Space Opera was supposed to be
This version of Wrath Of Khan sums it up surprisingly well.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:06 PM on March 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
This version of Wrath Of Khan sums it up surprisingly well.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:06 PM on March 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
This version of Wrath Of Khan sums it up surprisingly well.
Magnificent.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:10 PM on March 27, 2018
Magnificent.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:10 PM on March 27, 2018
Anyway, my takeaways that I'd like your opinions on: First Lensman
Nthing the others who suggest to just start with Galactic Patrol. First Lensman is an explicit prequel, and IIRC Triplanetary is some other thing that Smith retconned and fixupped into the Lensman universe.
The Lensmen books... well, they're very enthusiastic. I found them more interesting as a historical artifact than enjoyable. I did not know going into it that the Lensmen were basically the unaccountable DEA of the galaxy.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:30 PM on March 27, 2018
Nthing the others who suggest to just start with Galactic Patrol. First Lensman is an explicit prequel, and IIRC Triplanetary is some other thing that Smith retconned and fixupped into the Lensman universe.
The Lensmen books... well, they're very enthusiastic. I found them more interesting as a historical artifact than enjoyable. I did not know going into it that the Lensmen were basically the unaccountable DEA of the galaxy.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:30 PM on March 27, 2018
For me most of that list doesn't qualify as space opera. Space opera needs a grand scale in everything - entire cultures clashing across half a galaxy over generations. The Lensman books are space opera, the Skylark books less so.
Yes to the Foundation series, The Forever War, Startide Rising, the Polity books, the Culture and Fire Upon the Deep from the list. No to The Stars My Destination, Witch World, Cyteen, Snow Queen, maybe on TLWtaSAP, Starship Troopers - the stories are too personal or stuck in too small a setting (or just plain aren't from the right genre). Some odd choices in there as well - the Chanur books or Downbelow Station seem better choices for Cherryh.
Needs some Legends of the Galactic Heroes.
posted by N-stoff at 12:33 PM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yes to the Foundation series, The Forever War, Startide Rising, the Polity books, the Culture and Fire Upon the Deep from the list. No to The Stars My Destination, Witch World, Cyteen, Snow Queen, maybe on TLWtaSAP, Starship Troopers - the stories are too personal or stuck in too small a setting (or just plain aren't from the right genre). Some odd choices in there as well - the Chanur books or Downbelow Station seem better choices for Cherryh.
Needs some Legends of the Galactic Heroes.
posted by N-stoff at 12:33 PM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I would recommend checking James Davis Nicoll's occasional series of core lists, including 20 Core Space Operas. (Frustratingly, he doesn't tag these lists in any way, so I was reduced to Googling "James Nicoll" core space opera.)
They're tagged on Dreamwidth, and I remember them being tagged on his main blog - but Wordpress changed their system and the tags no longer show up.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:54 PM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
They're tagged on Dreamwidth, and I remember them being tagged on his main blog - but Wordpress changed their system and the tags no longer show up.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:54 PM on March 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
I did not know going into it that the Lensmen were basically the unaccountable DEA of the galaxy.
But they’re certified incorruptible! And they only destroy home planets when every member of the race is really really evil!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
But they’re certified incorruptible! And they only destroy home planets when every member of the race is really really evil!
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is a weird list but a good discussion. I'd say Cherryh's epic Chanur books are better examples of space opera - Cyteen is popular but it's entirely lacking in blood and thunder, it's mainly tense people sitting in rooms.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:06 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Sebmojo at 2:06 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd say Cherryh's epic Chanur books are better examples of space opera - Cyteen is popular but it's entirely lacking in blood and thunder, it's mainly tense people sitting in rooms.
Yeah, Cyteen is intrigue, but it's not thrilling, and it doesn't have any space battles. (Actually, does Chanur have space battles? ISTR only battles on station docksides.)
posted by suelac at 2:25 PM on March 27, 2018
Yeah, Cyteen is intrigue, but it's not thrilling, and it doesn't have any space battles. (Actually, does Chanur have space battles? ISTR only battles on station docksides.)
posted by suelac at 2:25 PM on March 27, 2018
I remembered when this list first went up, as I was linking over, I thought to myself "I wonder if I'll be on this list somewhere?"
And then when the page popped up the first image was from the cover of The Ghost Brigades, the second OMW novel. Then I thought, "Huh. Chances seem slightly better now."
posted by jscalzi at 2:52 PM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
And then when the page popped up the first image was from the cover of The Ghost Brigades, the second OMW novel. Then I thought, "Huh. Chances seem slightly better now."
posted by jscalzi at 2:52 PM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
There are a couple of truly execrable choices in that list (Donaldson's sadistic, poorly-written Gap Cycle being one of them).
As has been pointed out, "essential" and "very good" aren't necessarily the same. A lot of classic SF is essential to understand the genre but, frankly, isn't very well written. This includes a bunch of stuff from the Big 3, Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein.
I'd say Cherryh's epic Chanur books are better examples of space opera
Yes. Though Cherryh's best work isn't space opera at all; the FOREIGNER sequence. Which in a just world would be recognized as a masterwork. Cherryh was finally named SFWA Grandmaster in 2015 and I believe I first called online for her to be so named in the early 90s on RASFW. Which was before she had even begun what I think is her masterwork. So that's how awesome she is.
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
As has been pointed out, "essential" and "very good" aren't necessarily the same. A lot of classic SF is essential to understand the genre but, frankly, isn't very well written. This includes a bunch of stuff from the Big 3, Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein.
I'd say Cherryh's epic Chanur books are better examples of space opera
Yes. Though Cherryh's best work isn't space opera at all; the FOREIGNER sequence. Which in a just world would be recognized as a masterwork. Cherryh was finally named SFWA Grandmaster in 2015 and I believe I first called online for her to be so named in the early 90s on RASFW. Which was before she had even begun what I think is her masterwork. So that's how awesome she is.
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I agree with both sides of the Bujold issue. First, a Vorkosigan novel should absolutely be on the list. One cannot claim to be current on Space Opera, or SF in general, without familiarity with Bujold. But Shards of Honor is pretty dang bad. Should have been Mirror Dance or maybe The Vor Game.
I have a strong affection for A Civil Campaign but it's the least Space Operay of them all.
posted by Justinian at 3:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have a strong affection for A Civil Campaign but it's the least Space Operay of them all.
posted by Justinian at 3:01 PM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
The list does seem to consistently default to first-in-the-series, or first-in-the-series-based-on-a-hasty-Google. At least go with Warrior's Apprentice, you know?
posted by restless_nomad at 3:10 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by restless_nomad at 3:10 PM on March 27, 2018
Yeah. Just... Shards of Honor? Pls no.
I was actually quite impressed with this list overall. And I have STRONG FEELINGS on this matter. I would like to see the author's list of essential epic/heroic fantasy.
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on March 27, 2018
I was actually quite impressed with this list overall. And I have STRONG FEELINGS on this matter. I would like to see the author's list of essential epic/heroic fantasy.
posted by Justinian at 3:20 PM on March 27, 2018
The Stars my Destination - I know, I know, I don't think I've ever read this but if I have I'll know after picking it up and perusing through the first chapter.
It's a good book; it has a problematic segment, but it's good and worth a read. I'm just thrilled to see this list call it out as "arguably the first cyberpunk novel", which has long been my thought about it.
I think of space opera as "big" science fiction that is short on characterization beyond the broadly drawn archetypes and long on aliens, spaceships, enormous space lasers, action, and adventure, on a big scale. If it takes place on one planet, it's not space opera. One solar system probably isn't. One galaxy is more like it...
If the term "thought provoking" is used to describe the book, it's not space opera.
That's...really dismissive? I mean, I enjoy forms of entertainment I wouldn't call "though provoking", only to find that others have found that same thing quite "thought provoking", engaging, and inspiring. Which is great; not everything has to work for everyone on the same level.
Beyond that, are the Culture books (included on this list) not space opera? Aliens, spaceships, big weapons, action and adventure and yet we're getting books published analyzing them and their meaning. It's entirely possible for space opera (for any "genre") to be both entertaining and thought provoking, is my point.
posted by nubs at 3:22 PM on March 27, 2018
It's a good book; it has a problematic segment, but it's good and worth a read. I'm just thrilled to see this list call it out as "arguably the first cyberpunk novel", which has long been my thought about it.
I think of space opera as "big" science fiction that is short on characterization beyond the broadly drawn archetypes and long on aliens, spaceships, enormous space lasers, action, and adventure, on a big scale. If it takes place on one planet, it's not space opera. One solar system probably isn't. One galaxy is more like it...
If the term "thought provoking" is used to describe the book, it's not space opera.
That's...really dismissive? I mean, I enjoy forms of entertainment I wouldn't call "though provoking", only to find that others have found that same thing quite "thought provoking", engaging, and inspiring. Which is great; not everything has to work for everyone on the same level.
Beyond that, are the Culture books (included on this list) not space opera? Aliens, spaceships, big weapons, action and adventure and yet we're getting books published analyzing them and their meaning. It's entirely possible for space opera (for any "genre") to be both entertaining and thought provoking, is my point.
posted by nubs at 3:22 PM on March 27, 2018
Good lord...the Darkstalker series? The writing is terribad. Characters never develop, they use the same silly lines, and the plots alternate between wtf and blindingly obvious.
Then again, I read six or seven of the things so I guess it was effective?
posted by mfu at 3:33 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Then again, I read six or seven of the things so I guess it was effective?
posted by mfu at 3:33 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure I'd call much of Alastair Reynolds's work "space opera." There's no FTL travel, he's very conscientious about the laws of physics, his characters are less like oversized heroic personalities, and more like the parties in a particularly vicious and long-running academic dispute.
On the other hand, Ann Leckie's books fit the bill perfectly, and are great fun.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, Ann Leckie's books fit the bill perfectly, and are great fun.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure I'd call much of Alastair Reynolds's work "space opera." There's no FTL travel
There is, but it's a deeply unwise thing to do.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:03 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
There is, but it's a deeply unwise thing to do.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:03 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I odn;t think "SF Harness" is a useful measure at all here - The Expanse is pretty much a hard SF universe, or at least is to begin with, but is still Space Opera AF.
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
No, IMHO some of the factors that make something Space Opera are that (a) the story takes place IN SPACE -- so, spaceships, stations, other planets; (b) the story is inherently dramatic: political intrigue, family drama, big sweeping emotions; (c) the story has narrative momentum, like the horse/soap operas the name comes from -- there are thrills and chills, chases and battles, last-minute rescues and desperate defeats.
I don't really think scientific plausibility is a criteria in determining whether something is space opera. In fact, I tend to think it goes the other way, because a really plausible space drive results in very slow transit times, and it's hard to have a galactic empire when it takes decades to get between your colonies.
posted by suelac at 4:16 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't really think scientific plausibility is a criteria in determining whether something is space opera. In fact, I tend to think it goes the other way, because a really plausible space drive results in very slow transit times, and it's hard to have a galactic empire when it takes decades to get between your colonies.
posted by suelac at 4:16 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't really think scientific plausibility is a criteria in determining whether something is space opera.
The ur-space-opera is indeed the Lensman series wherein the bad guys have a magnetic space gun that's so powerful it sucks the iron out of your hemoglobin.
So yes, scientific plausibility is not a criteria for most people's definition of space opera.
posted by GuyZero at 4:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
The ur-space-opera is indeed the Lensman series wherein the bad guys have a magnetic space gun that's so powerful it sucks the iron out of your hemoglobin.
So yes, scientific plausibility is not a criteria for most people's definition of space opera.
posted by GuyZero at 4:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
In either direction.
posted by Artw at 5:10 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 5:10 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's...really dismissive? I mean, I enjoy forms of entertainment I wouldn't call "though provoking", only to find that others have found that same thing quite "thought provoking", engaging, and inspiring. Which is great; not everything has to work for everyone on the same level.
Probably not the best term, but I'm struggling to come up with a better one. Let's take Ringworld as an example. The Ringworld is one of the greatest constructs in science fiction and it's spawned a lot of discussion, but I wouldn't consider Ringworld to be a really "deep" book (doesn't mean I don't love it). The ideas are great, but the ideas are there in service to the plot, which is paper thin. Or maybe it's that the ideas are about cool things rather than about people. Maybe it's the difference between "neat" and "deep".
Or maybe the distinction is completely wrong and I should just drop it. That's possible, too.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 5:37 PM on March 27, 2018
Probably not the best term, but I'm struggling to come up with a better one. Let's take Ringworld as an example. The Ringworld is one of the greatest constructs in science fiction and it's spawned a lot of discussion, but I wouldn't consider Ringworld to be a really "deep" book (doesn't mean I don't love it). The ideas are great, but the ideas are there in service to the plot, which is paper thin. Or maybe it's that the ideas are about cool things rather than about people. Maybe it's the difference between "neat" and "deep".
Or maybe the distinction is completely wrong and I should just drop it. That's possible, too.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 5:37 PM on March 27, 2018
Are you thinking perhaps of pulp SF as a classification?
posted by inconstant at 5:39 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by inconstant at 5:39 PM on March 27, 2018
I'd say space opera is extroverted, if that makes sense. The focus of a character in any given moment is going to be something external to themselves. Another character, their mission, the breathtaking environment, how do I kill an inhumanly fast, strong, and smart alien that's would have been the second phase of natural human biological development, had the symbiotic microorganism that triggers the change been amenable to life on earth. The spectrum from pulp to hard sci-fi are on a different axis.
Trying to come to a descriptor: Space opera is high stakes, large scale, extroverted, and (there should be a word for this) concerns itself with a narrative with a large number of events, locations, and incidental characters. The smaller the scale, more limited the events, and more concerned something is with the inner lives of the characters, the less space opera it is.
Actually Ringworld is a perfect example of what makes Space Opera space opera. The setup is practically Lovcraftian "Hey, here's a giant, ancient, impossibly advanced alien construct, that more or less proves just about everything you think you know about human beings, and their place in the universe is wrong". Ringworld acknowledges this, but doesn't get hung up on it. There are cultural misunderstandings with Kizinti and two headed three legged horse people kicking some poor bugger's chest in that are much more interesting. Ringworld is far more concerned with the journey. It's far more focused on rolling through this giant world on hoverbikes having laser-fights with killer sunflowers than anything else.
posted by Grimgrin at 6:22 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Trying to come to a descriptor: Space opera is high stakes, large scale, extroverted, and (there should be a word for this) concerns itself with a narrative with a large number of events, locations, and incidental characters. The smaller the scale, more limited the events, and more concerned something is with the inner lives of the characters, the less space opera it is.
Actually Ringworld is a perfect example of what makes Space Opera space opera. The setup is practically Lovcraftian "Hey, here's a giant, ancient, impossibly advanced alien construct, that more or less proves just about everything you think you know about human beings, and their place in the universe is wrong". Ringworld acknowledges this, but doesn't get hung up on it. There are cultural misunderstandings with Kizinti and two headed three legged horse people kicking some poor bugger's chest in that are much more interesting. Ringworld is far more concerned with the journey. It's far more focused on rolling through this giant world on hoverbikes having laser-fights with killer sunflowers than anything else.
posted by Grimgrin at 6:22 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
I wonder who's reading whose blog because I just saw on tor.com (a publishing label affiliated with a different media entity) "Space Opera Revenge: Corey J. White’s Void Black Shadow"
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:58 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:58 PM on March 27, 2018
Space opera is in right now. Editors are looking for it, there is a lot of cool stuff out recently and on the way, and it hasn't hit the retread/cash-in point yet, at least for me.
posted by restless_nomad at 7:07 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by restless_nomad at 7:07 PM on March 27, 2018
Trying to come to a descriptor: Space opera is high stakes, large scale, extroverted, and (there should be a word for this) concerns itself with a narrative with a large number of events, locations, and incidental characters.
Romance. See Masters of the English Novel by the more dashing Richard Burton; he names the poles of novelistic approach realism and romance (and, in fact, is just old-fashioned enough in his day not to assume that realism is the more serious artistic approach, which is fun for a SFF reader).
posted by clew at 8:04 PM on March 27, 2018
Romance. See Masters of the English Novel by the more dashing Richard Burton; he names the poles of novelistic approach realism and romance (and, in fact, is just old-fashioned enough in his day not to assume that realism is the more serious artistic approach, which is fun for a SFF reader).
posted by clew at 8:04 PM on March 27, 2018
Wait, "Void Black Shadow" by Corey J. White is a real thing and not a fake review to parody the pseudonymous James. A. Corey?
posted by Justinian at 8:17 PM on March 27, 2018
posted by Justinian at 8:17 PM on March 27, 2018
I wonder if Greg Egan's Diaspora could be considered a Space Opera. It has the spaceships, the planets, the aliens, and the epic scale. It fails Lurgi's "thought provoking" criterion pretty hard.
posted by Loudmax at 8:52 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Loudmax at 8:52 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
clew: Yes. Romance is exactly the right word. Which kind of annoys me as I was quite literally just reading a translation of "Romance of the Three Kingdoms", and couldn't make the connection.
edit: IIRC Diaspora is what I'd call an 'introverted' book it spends a lot of it's time on the charachter's inner lives and how they grapple with philosophical issues that come up.
posted by Grimgrin at 8:54 PM on March 27, 2018
edit: IIRC Diaspora is what I'd call an 'introverted' book it spends a lot of it's time on the charachter's inner lives and how they grapple with philosophical issues that come up.
posted by Grimgrin at 8:54 PM on March 27, 2018
Fortune’s Pawn, by Rachel Bach - I was looking for a light sci-fi to read and read this on a recommendation (it was described as Mass Effect-esque). It's an action-romance about a tough space marine. Something about it nagged at me, and I realized that in this series multiple aliens in their crew are outcast from their own cultures because they don't fit their cultural gender norms. Which is great and all, right up until you notice that every single human main character is white and blue eyed and straight and it's not 1967 and we don't need TOS style alien metaphors anymore. Like, have a male human crew member who outwardly displays feminine characteristics despite being raised in a very machismo culture. Have a non-binary human crew member. Don't leave those roles to aliens alone because despite thinking you're being progressive what you're actually doing is continuing to other those characters and characteristics with their literal alienness.
posted by thecjm at 8:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by thecjm at 8:57 PM on March 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
As has been pointed out, "essential" and "very good" aren't necessarily the same. A lot of classic SF is essential to understand the genre but, frankly, isn't very well written.
So what in the world does the Crap-err, Gap Cycle have to do with either "essential" or "very good"?
posted by happyroach at 8:58 PM on March 27, 2018
So what in the world does the Crap-err, Gap Cycle have to do with either "essential" or "very good"?
posted by happyroach at 8:58 PM on March 27, 2018
Apparently I'm a member of the orthodox church of space opera and it matters to me more than I'd have thought. I would exclude about as much as anyone here from the genre.
I definitely agree on those who want a grand scale, more than one planet, and a bit of melodrama. (It is analogous to "soap opera" after all.) I would not count City of Illusions (underrated) or even Dune as space opera because they are basically single planet stories.
I get that a definition that veers towards "low quality" in some way feels wrong. It is a sub-genre like "whodunnit". A whodunnit can have all the same elements as the parent genre of "crime" but if someone recommends a book as a whodunnit the focus better be on the crime as a sort of puzzle. That's got to be more central than the bleak existing of the detective who is turning into the monster they hunt or something. There's a definite tone thing involved. This makes "quality" more challenging to come by, or at least it's scored on a different axis.
I ended up over-analyzing A Long Way to a Small Angry Planet (not space opera in my head) and Trading in Danger (space opera in my head, with a somewhat similar plot about a relatively inexperienced woman on a new commercial spaceship). Both have some wartime scenes. If you list plot elements out there's no difference. But when I read it I pegged ALWtaSAP as a travelogue--go someplace, meet new cultures, move on. TiD cared way more about the naval intelligence connections of the main character, the conflict was sort of the capstone of the plot, and it also had POV changes that gave us major political and military players.
posted by mark k at 10:24 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I definitely agree on those who want a grand scale, more than one planet, and a bit of melodrama. (It is analogous to "soap opera" after all.) I would not count City of Illusions (underrated) or even Dune as space opera because they are basically single planet stories.
I get that a definition that veers towards "low quality" in some way feels wrong. It is a sub-genre like "whodunnit". A whodunnit can have all the same elements as the parent genre of "crime" but if someone recommends a book as a whodunnit the focus better be on the crime as a sort of puzzle. That's got to be more central than the bleak existing of the detective who is turning into the monster they hunt or something. There's a definite tone thing involved. This makes "quality" more challenging to come by, or at least it's scored on a different axis.
I ended up over-analyzing A Long Way to a Small Angry Planet (not space opera in my head) and Trading in Danger (space opera in my head, with a somewhat similar plot about a relatively inexperienced woman on a new commercial spaceship). Both have some wartime scenes. If you list plot elements out there's no difference. But when I read it I pegged ALWtaSAP as a travelogue--go someplace, meet new cultures, move on. TiD cared way more about the naval intelligence connections of the main character, the conflict was sort of the capstone of the plot, and it also had POV changes that gave us major political and military players.
posted by mark k at 10:24 PM on March 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’ve always thought of Space Opera as opera happening in space. Opera is not about deep meaningful thoughts or even morality tales really. It’s sung and acted and the goal is for the drama or humor to be felt viscerally — not logically processed but just experienced. Opera is a feeling.
Space Opera is that feeling, in space.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:32 PM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Space Opera is that feeling, in space.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:32 PM on March 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Gotta agree about The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet not really fitting the bill as space opera. This isn't a slight against it (didn't do much for me though I get why people enjoyed it) but nothing about the book is big or galaxy-scale dramatic or packed with lots stuff happening. It's a small, sweet, character-centric novel. Grimgrin's note on space opera being extroverted is a useful one here and Chambers did not write a particularly grandiose or extroverted book.
The same applies to On A Red Station, Drifting. There's definitely a fine space opera happening somewhere else in the Dai Viet empire - Linh is the connecting thread to that big war of rebels and emperors - but it's all backdrop, motive and worldbuilding. The book is a beautiful, confined, small-scale story about Quyen and Linh negotiating a difficult situation.
posted by ocular shenanigans at 8:56 AM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
The same applies to On A Red Station, Drifting. There's definitely a fine space opera happening somewhere else in the Dai Viet empire - Linh is the connecting thread to that big war of rebels and emperors - but it's all backdrop, motive and worldbuilding. The book is a beautiful, confined, small-scale story about Quyen and Linh negotiating a difficult situation.
posted by ocular shenanigans at 8:56 AM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Huh. I've always vaguely intened to look at EE Smith's stuff, and it's on Gutenberg so I just finished reading Triplanetary.
And yow that's bad.
His prose is passable, a bit too fond of certain obscure of just non-standard words (Tellus for Earth, for example), but not Lovecraftian type purple prose or even just plain bad.
But his characters... To call them cardboard would be an insult to cardboard, and they are utterly and completely identical, including the bad guys. All are bold, brave, focused, scientist/engineers with square jaws and so on. Literally the only way to tell one from another is by the names.
And the plot is awful. He preaches about democracy being good, but his setup involves a nominally democratic world government but things really being run by a secretive bunch of self selecting "good" people who are appointed for life. And their biggest, most pressing, concern is how to devise a completely non-falsifiable form of ID so they can identify themselves to the peasants and know they will get instant obedience and cooperation in whatever they need. Its ok, they're the good guys.
Plus a plot that's entirely built on successive deus ex mechana. Is there a new problem involving previously completely unknown and unsuspected scientific principles? No worries, we can whip up something in five minutes that will counter it!
I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why he's so highly regarded as a grand master of early SF. Even Heinlein wrote better stories and had more varied characters. And Heinlein is infamous for having only four characters (Heinlein Heroic Male, Heinlein Heroic Female, Heinlein Opposition Male, Heinlein Opposition Female).
posted by sotonohito at 1:55 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
And yow that's bad.
His prose is passable, a bit too fond of certain obscure of just non-standard words (Tellus for Earth, for example), but not Lovecraftian type purple prose or even just plain bad.
But his characters... To call them cardboard would be an insult to cardboard, and they are utterly and completely identical, including the bad guys. All are bold, brave, focused, scientist/engineers with square jaws and so on. Literally the only way to tell one from another is by the names.
And the plot is awful. He preaches about democracy being good, but his setup involves a nominally democratic world government but things really being run by a secretive bunch of self selecting "good" people who are appointed for life. And their biggest, most pressing, concern is how to devise a completely non-falsifiable form of ID so they can identify themselves to the peasants and know they will get instant obedience and cooperation in whatever they need. Its ok, they're the good guys.
Plus a plot that's entirely built on successive deus ex mechana. Is there a new problem involving previously completely unknown and unsuspected scientific principles? No worries, we can whip up something in five minutes that will counter it!
I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why he's so highly regarded as a grand master of early SF. Even Heinlein wrote better stories and had more varied characters. And Heinlein is infamous for having only four characters (Heinlein Heroic Male, Heinlein Heroic Female, Heinlein Opposition Male, Heinlein Opposition Female).
posted by sotonohito at 1:55 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I think Dune probably shouldn't be discounted as space opera on the basis that it is largely set on Arrakis, since it is a story about grand empire politics and also parts of the story take place on Caladan, Giedi Prime, and Salusa Secundus, but maybe I am nitpicking.
posted by walrus at 2:27 PM on March 28, 2018
posted by walrus at 2:27 PM on March 28, 2018
I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why he's so highly regarded as a grand master of early SF
It’s easy to squish the timeline from this distance, but E.E. Smith started getting this stuff published in 1928. Heinlein and the rest of the Golden Age folks didn’t start in until 1938. He was first by quite a length. If you find him hackneyed it’s because, much like Shakespeare, all he did was throw a bunch of old well known quotations together.
Which isn’t to say he belongs in the same sentence or even on the same website as Shakespeare. This is not literature.
I’m not sure where your complaint about exulting democracy while keeping the military as a dictatorship is coming from. That’s how it works?
What’s interesting to me about the focus on finding 100% incorruptible and trustworthy LEOs is how little things have changed over the years. We all want that and it remains the stuff of fantasy.
Anyway, the guy was born in 1890 and had remarkable vision for someone of that era. Laser beams, spaceships, mechanized warfare, psionics, alien races, FTL — none of these were even concepts when he grew up, but when they came along he ran long and hard with them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:43 PM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s easy to squish the timeline from this distance, but E.E. Smith started getting this stuff published in 1928. Heinlein and the rest of the Golden Age folks didn’t start in until 1938. He was first by quite a length. If you find him hackneyed it’s because, much like Shakespeare, all he did was throw a bunch of old well known quotations together.
Which isn’t to say he belongs in the same sentence or even on the same website as Shakespeare. This is not literature.
I’m not sure where your complaint about exulting democracy while keeping the military as a dictatorship is coming from. That’s how it works?
What’s interesting to me about the focus on finding 100% incorruptible and trustworthy LEOs is how little things have changed over the years. We all want that and it remains the stuff of fantasy.
Anyway, the guy was born in 1890 and had remarkable vision for someone of that era. Laser beams, spaceships, mechanized warfare, psionics, alien races, FTL — none of these were even concepts when he grew up, but when they came along he ran long and hard with them.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:43 PM on March 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
More on tor.com... a new book coming out with the title "Space Opera", and based on the blurb, it's about an interplanetary version of the Eurovision song contest. Mmmkay...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:21 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:21 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sotonohito: you could do worse, after reading E.E. "Doc" Smith, to seek out Harry Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers to serve as a chaser. Some of it hasn't aged particularly gracefully but it'll certainly let you know that Smith's shortcomings were the subject of parody even 45 years ago..
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:01 PM on March 28, 2018
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:01 PM on March 28, 2018
More on tor.com... a new book coming out with the title "Space Opera", and based on the blurb, it's about an interplanetary version of the Eurovision song contest. Mmmkay...
I don't know about that novel but Cat Valente is widely respected and well regarded for both her fiction and her non-fiction. She's won a ton of awards for someone as young as she is. (under 40 is practically an infant in the quickly greying world of SF!).
posted by Justinian at 4:32 PM on March 28, 2018
I don't know about that novel but Cat Valente is widely respected and well regarded for both her fiction and her non-fiction. She's won a ton of awards for someone as young as she is. (under 40 is practically an infant in the quickly greying world of SF!).
posted by Justinian at 4:32 PM on March 28, 2018
Nerd I read Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers about 15 or 20 years ago, which is why I feel foolish for not reading Smith earlier as I knew Harrison was writing a pastiche/parody of him.
Tell Me No Lies The problem isn't that the military is a dictatorship, but that the secretive, self selecting, appointed for life, types overrule the democracy and are basically the real political power with the democratic government being basically a figurehead for the true rulers.
posted by sotonohito at 4:53 PM on March 28, 2018
Tell Me No Lies The problem isn't that the military is a dictatorship, but that the secretive, self selecting, appointed for life, types overrule the democracy and are basically the real political power with the democratic government being basically a figurehead for the true rulers.
posted by sotonohito at 4:53 PM on March 28, 2018
Huh so it's like the Galactic Republic...
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:59 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:59 PM on March 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh, was that a scoffing "mmkay"?
posted by inconstant at 5:04 PM on March 28, 2018
posted by inconstant at 5:04 PM on March 28, 2018
The problem isn't that the military is a dictatorship, but that the secretive, self selecting, appointed for life, types overrule the democracy and are basically the real political power with the democratic government being basically a figurehead for the true rulers.
Ah, yeah. In First Lensman a lot of attention is paid to a civilian government, but I’m pretty sure it’s never mentioned again for the rest of the series. Certainly there’s never a hint that they answer to anyone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:46 PM on March 28, 2018
Ah, yeah. In First Lensman a lot of attention is paid to a civilian government, but I’m pretty sure it’s never mentioned again for the rest of the series. Certainly there’s never a hint that they answer to anyone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:46 PM on March 28, 2018
That was a 'mmmkay' the likes of which I give to all science fiction that appears not intended to be taken fully seriously... Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Scalzi's Redshirts, Galaxy Quest... which are among my favorite science fiction, including the infamous Piers Anthony's "Prostho Plus", about an earth dentist recruited to work on teeth throughout the galaxy, and which inadvertently helped me through a personal dental crisis. I'm hoping "Space Opera" will do the same for this year's Eurovision.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:46 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:46 PM on March 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Tell Me No Lies I only read Triplanetary, and there it is explicitly stated in a bullying, bragging, abusive way, by the head of the precursor to the Galactic Patrol, that they are not answerable to any civilian government, only to their appointed for life self selected secretive star chamber bosses. He stated this while blackmailing a senator from the North American government who had the temerity to ask for some explanations of the Triplanetary Organization's actions and the desire to exercise some oversight over the group headquartered in his continent and (presumably) getting a great deal of taxpayer money.
A few paragraphs earlier the same character had "reluctantly" decided that the best course of action was extrajudicial killing of an unspecified number of people suspected of crimes because letting the matter come to trial or even be known to the general public would have bad consequences as the people involved were all highly influential and powerful. This, mind you, was explicitly described in the text as an illegal act and one that he "regretted" but viewed as a necessary part of his duties as the defacto dictator of three planets.
Which leads me to view the peans to democracy as more than a bit hypocritical. Democracy is fine, Smith seems to be arguing, as a way for the plebes to imagine they are free while true power is exercised by the elite supermen with no accountability, oversight, or restraint.
Having checked the wiki, it seems that later this gets even worse once the Lens comes into play, as a bearer of a Lens is basically authorized to do absolutely anything, seize any property, draft anyone into their service, use invasive telepathy to violate the sanctity of the mind of anyone they choose, and that's all totally ok because they're good guys who will never abuse this inherently abusive set of powers.
posted by sotonohito at 4:33 AM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
A few paragraphs earlier the same character had "reluctantly" decided that the best course of action was extrajudicial killing of an unspecified number of people suspected of crimes because letting the matter come to trial or even be known to the general public would have bad consequences as the people involved were all highly influential and powerful. This, mind you, was explicitly described in the text as an illegal act and one that he "regretted" but viewed as a necessary part of his duties as the defacto dictator of three planets.
Which leads me to view the peans to democracy as more than a bit hypocritical. Democracy is fine, Smith seems to be arguing, as a way for the plebes to imagine they are free while true power is exercised by the elite supermen with no accountability, oversight, or restraint.
Having checked the wiki, it seems that later this gets even worse once the Lens comes into play, as a bearer of a Lens is basically authorized to do absolutely anything, seize any property, draft anyone into their service, use invasive telepathy to violate the sanctity of the mind of anyone they choose, and that's all totally ok because they're good guys who will never abuse this inherently abusive set of powers.
posted by sotonohito at 4:33 AM on March 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Which leads me to view the peans to democracy as more than a bit hypocritical. Democracy is fine, Smith seems to be arguing, as a way for the plebes to imagine they are free while true power is exercised by the elite supermen with no accountability, oversight, or restraint.
This is kind of par for the course for American scifi of that era. Lots of books had themes of übermensch, "scientific" training that analyzes your brain to determine you optimal career, authoritarianism, wacko libertarianism, all kinds of stuff. Again, good, appealing, etc - all different from being early examples of the field. The Golden Age of scifi gave us Ted Sturgeon who gave us Sturgeon's Law: "Ninety percent of [science fiction] is crud, but then, ninety percent of everything is crud."
But gross politics is pretty much true of all the authors of the era I've read - Asimov, del Rey, Heinlein, Hubbard (I mean, geez), Sturgeon, van Vogt... maybe there were some authors of the era who were better but a lot of the big names all wrote the same manly-men-being-men-in-space schtick.
posted by GuyZero at 9:47 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is kind of par for the course for American scifi of that era. Lots of books had themes of übermensch, "scientific" training that analyzes your brain to determine you optimal career, authoritarianism, wacko libertarianism, all kinds of stuff. Again, good, appealing, etc - all different from being early examples of the field. The Golden Age of scifi gave us Ted Sturgeon who gave us Sturgeon's Law: "Ninety percent of [science fiction] is crud, but then, ninety percent of everything is crud."
But gross politics is pretty much true of all the authors of the era I've read - Asimov, del Rey, Heinlein, Hubbard (I mean, geez), Sturgeon, van Vogt... maybe there were some authors of the era who were better but a lot of the big names all wrote the same manly-men-being-men-in-space schtick.
posted by GuyZero at 9:47 AM on March 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
True. And I didnt mean to imply that Smith was any particularly worse than the others.
posted by sotonohito at 11:58 AM on March 29, 2018
posted by sotonohito at 11:58 AM on March 29, 2018
This is kind of par for the course for American scifi of that era. Lots of books had themes of übermensch
See also "The Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad for the definitive commentary on this.
posted by Justinian at 12:18 PM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
See also "The Iron Dream" by Norman Spinrad for the definitive commentary on this.
posted by Justinian at 12:18 PM on March 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is kind of par for the course for American scifi of that era.
He was born in the 19th century -- how inaccurate was it for the American politics of that era?
posted by clew at 5:16 PM on March 29, 2018
He was born in the 19th century -- how inaccurate was it for the American politics of that era?
posted by clew at 5:16 PM on March 29, 2018
This was the era of a very sincere belief that eugenics programs were a good thing so it's not surprising to see that reflected in the fiction of the time. Post-depression strong leaders were in vogue all over the place. And heck, one doesn't have to look very hard to find, shall we say, "unenlightened" scifi writers even today, so no big surprise they were around then too.
posted by GuyZero at 5:44 PM on March 29, 2018
posted by GuyZero at 5:44 PM on March 29, 2018
Very surprised to see no mention of anything by Jack Vance. How about the The Demon Princes series, the Alastor books: Trullion, Wyst, and Marune and of course Space Opera ?
posted by jellacious at 2:59 PM on March 30, 2018
posted by jellacious at 2:59 PM on March 30, 2018
Glad to see Stross and Scalzi on that list, Singularity Sky and Old Man's War (along with Hyperion and A Fire Upon the Deep) really reinvigorated my interest in sci-fi in the early 2000's, having originally burned out on it in my teens (because of Heinlein, Card, and Dick).
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:01 PM on April 2, 2018
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:01 PM on April 2, 2018
Err... is Three Body Problem really Space Opera? I have to admit, I got bored and bailed on it, but it seemed to be some VR conspiracy business in the parts I got up to.
Artw, I really struggled with that one as well, hoping to be rewarded at the end, but apart from the bit with the boat...I guess I'm just not the audience for that one, politely.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:05 PM on April 2, 2018
Artw, I really struggled with that one as well, hoping to be rewarded at the end, but apart from the bit with the boat...I guess I'm just not the audience for that one, politely.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:05 PM on April 2, 2018
Ditto to happyroach and jellacious:
Emphyrio
The Dogtown Tourist Agency
or any other novel of his set in the Gaean Reach -- shit, you could do a 50 space opera novels list of Jack Vance alone.
posted by y2karl at 1:11 PM on April 7, 2018
NEEDS MORE JACK VANCE....And I would add to their citations,
NO, FUCK IT, NEEDS ANY JACK VANCE
Emphyrio
The Dogtown Tourist Agency
or any other novel of his set in the Gaean Reach -- shit, you could do a 50 space opera novels list of Jack Vance alone.
posted by y2karl at 1:11 PM on April 7, 2018
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posted by seanmpuckett at 9:46 AM on March 27, 2018 [5 favorites]