American Beauties - The story of the plastic bag.
August 28, 2018 1:52 PM Subscribe
Essay examining the history and impact of the humble plastic bag. They catch in the wind, gather on the street, and clog our trash cans. How plastic bags came to rule our lives, and why we can’t quit them.
Of course you can quit them. Here in Ireland we added a government levy on plastic bags back in 2002, with revenue used to support environmental projects. After that point you had to specifically ask for them, and pay for them. It was a great success and was expanded - now you can't get non-reusable plastic bags in supermarkets (except very occasionally as wrappers for raw meat or fish). Food to go comes exclusively in cardboard containers and paper bags. When I buy something in my local fish shop, it comes in a biodegradable packet. The policy was even a victim of its own success in some ways, as the money from the levy has now reduced to a trickle, as people hoard reusable bags under the kitchen sink or in drawers.
Don't confuse can't with won't.
posted by kersplunk at 2:23 PM on August 28, 2018 [70 favorites]
Don't confuse can't with won't.
posted by kersplunk at 2:23 PM on August 28, 2018 [70 favorites]
And cat poop.
As for quitting them...I cannot get my husband to use any form of bring-your-own bag, which maddens me. He's not alone, evidently: "Our own research suggests an additional possibility: men may shun eco-friendly behavior because of what it conveys about their masculinity. It’s not that men don’t care about the environment. But they also tend to want to feel macho, and they worry that eco-friendly behaviors might brand them as feminine."
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:26 PM on August 28, 2018 [18 favorites]
As for quitting them...I cannot get my husband to use any form of bring-your-own bag, which maddens me. He's not alone, evidently: "Our own research suggests an additional possibility: men may shun eco-friendly behavior because of what it conveys about their masculinity. It’s not that men don’t care about the environment. But they also tend to want to feel macho, and they worry that eco-friendly behaviors might brand them as feminine."
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:26 PM on August 28, 2018 [18 favorites]
If he wants to feel muy macho, tell him to load his whole order into one bag, it's a "test of strength."
posted by Marky at 2:30 PM on August 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Marky at 2:30 PM on August 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Yup, I can see that. My male relative hates any form of recycling, and only does it because he'll get fined where he lives. He has this 19th-century Manifest Destiny type of attitude: we conquered, we took, therefore we are strong, and I'm entitled to keep on taking. Or something like that.
posted by Melismata at 2:31 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:31 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
This was an enjoyable and enlightening read. Thanks for posting it.
When I first started using reusable bags, I had to overcome some squicky feels that it gave me, not because being environmentally conscious isn't "macho", but because I felt I was putting the cashiers and baggers in a bad spot having to deal with a bunch of bags that don't retain their shape. Most common reusable bags don't stand up by themselves the way paper bags do, nor do they generally work well with the plastic bag holders that allow those to keep their shape until they're filled. When I first started bringing my own bags, got a bunch of sad looks from people when they had to use them, and as someone who worked bagging groceries for several years during a time when reusable bags were very uncommon, I had some understanding of their pain. Those items are coming *fast*, and it's nerve-wracking to have the items piling up while you fumble to get the first few things in.
Eventually I found bags with some kind of plastic at the bottom that help the bag keep its shape a bit, and decided that even a tiny incremental step toward saving the planet is worth whatever hassle I might add to that person's day. Seems to be one of those things that, over time, they'll come to just get used to. Wouldn't mind some effort to standardize the bags themselves, though, so that maybe some kind of reusable bag holding thing could keep them upright. (Yes, I've thought a lot about this.)
posted by tonycpsu at 2:43 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
When I first started using reusable bags, I had to overcome some squicky feels that it gave me, not because being environmentally conscious isn't "macho", but because I felt I was putting the cashiers and baggers in a bad spot having to deal with a bunch of bags that don't retain their shape. Most common reusable bags don't stand up by themselves the way paper bags do, nor do they generally work well with the plastic bag holders that allow those to keep their shape until they're filled. When I first started bringing my own bags, got a bunch of sad looks from people when they had to use them, and as someone who worked bagging groceries for several years during a time when reusable bags were very uncommon, I had some understanding of their pain. Those items are coming *fast*, and it's nerve-wracking to have the items piling up while you fumble to get the first few things in.
Eventually I found bags with some kind of plastic at the bottom that help the bag keep its shape a bit, and decided that even a tiny incremental step toward saving the planet is worth whatever hassle I might add to that person's day. Seems to be one of those things that, over time, they'll come to just get used to. Wouldn't mind some effort to standardize the bags themselves, though, so that maybe some kind of reusable bag holding thing could keep them upright. (Yes, I've thought a lot about this.)
posted by tonycpsu at 2:43 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I pick up my dog's poop with a plastic bag every single time he goes, so if they start charging for grocery bags I guess I'll pay, because the alternative is paying for dog poo bags somewhere else and I don't know if it's better to buy a roll of 100 manufactured specifically to pick up dog poo a single time, or pay one at a time for a plastic bag that gets used for two useful purposes.
My only other issue is: how do I know how many reusable grocery sacks do I need to bring with me to the store?
This isn't about masculinity or macho-ness about not considering the environment, but another more male-attribute that gets me into trouble: you mean I have to plan to go to the grocery store? Like, know I'm going to buy twenty things that fit into four bags, and also make sure I have four bags with me when I enter the store?
I maybe have a list of the five things that got me to go to the store, but how do I estimate what I'm going to find on sale, or sounds tasty? My shopping trips range from two bags to twenty bags when I get home, and I genuinely had no idea how much I was going to buy when I walked into the store, let alone planning before I leave the house.
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:52 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
My only other issue is: how do I know how many reusable grocery sacks do I need to bring with me to the store?
This isn't about masculinity or macho-ness about not considering the environment, but another more male-attribute that gets me into trouble: you mean I have to plan to go to the grocery store? Like, know I'm going to buy twenty things that fit into four bags, and also make sure I have four bags with me when I enter the store?
I maybe have a list of the five things that got me to go to the store, but how do I estimate what I'm going to find on sale, or sounds tasty? My shopping trips range from two bags to twenty bags when I get home, and I genuinely had no idea how much I was going to buy when I walked into the store, let alone planning before I leave the house.
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:52 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I dunno, seems to me that bringing ten bags in it isn't substantially more difficult than bringing in four bags. Kind of undercuts the "dudes can't possibly plan stuff" trope.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:00 PM on August 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 3:00 PM on August 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Men caused the world to be this disposable and they don't want to change to make it less so. And so our inevitable slide towards premature extinction continues.
posted by agregoli at 3:02 PM on August 28, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 3:02 PM on August 28, 2018 [19 favorites]
I love our reusable bags. They're sturdy and have long straps. I can carry an ton of crap in each one and the bottoms never fall out. We stuff 3 or 4 in our Trader Joe's insulated bag a d keep put it back in the car after we unload. The hardest part for me is remembering to take them from the car to the store. I've been known to go back.
Seriously, if your guy thinks they are wimpy, show him how heavy you can make them and how much crap you can haul. It didn't occur to me until I read this thread, but I think that may be what my wife did to me...
posted by cccorlew at 3:06 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Seriously, if your guy thinks they are wimpy, show him how heavy you can make them and how much crap you can haul. It didn't occur to me until I read this thread, but I think that may be what my wife did to me...
posted by cccorlew at 3:06 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
We can definitely quit them: in Austin, they've been banned for years, and while the novelty tends to cause us to hoard the disposable kind when we encounter them (free poop bags for the dog! Small trash can liners! Things we definitely will use, absolutely! Except not), I don't think anyone misses them too much.
The solution to "how many reusable grocery sacks to bring into a store?" is suddenly much more solvable when you know you'll be faced with paying a small fee--either ten cents or a dollar; I genuinely can't recall--per bag. You keep all your reusable bags stuffed into one mutated, lumpy bag of bags, and then you shove it in your cart and fill the cart with groceries. Then you draw bags out as needed. None of this estimating bags in advance nonsense. If you forget, you pays your fee to buy a bag, and then it joins the collective of bags when you're done.
If the bags become overwhelming and hateful, there are recycling stations at the grocery store that you can dump some of the surplus in. (One of my roommates works at this chain, and we also sometimes fold up bags to give to her so that folks who can't afford a bag can have one free. Sometimes we also do things like hand out bags to kids who don't have one at Halloween--usually teenagers who decided they were too old for Halloween before the lure of free candy drove them sheepishly into the streets--or use them for storage around the house, at least temporarily.)
The mutant bag of bags lives, of course, in the car.
posted by sciatrix at 3:06 PM on August 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
The solution to "how many reusable grocery sacks to bring into a store?" is suddenly much more solvable when you know you'll be faced with paying a small fee--either ten cents or a dollar; I genuinely can't recall--per bag. You keep all your reusable bags stuffed into one mutated, lumpy bag of bags, and then you shove it in your cart and fill the cart with groceries. Then you draw bags out as needed. None of this estimating bags in advance nonsense. If you forget, you pays your fee to buy a bag, and then it joins the collective of bags when you're done.
If the bags become overwhelming and hateful, there are recycling stations at the grocery store that you can dump some of the surplus in. (One of my roommates works at this chain, and we also sometimes fold up bags to give to her so that folks who can't afford a bag can have one free. Sometimes we also do things like hand out bags to kids who don't have one at Halloween--usually teenagers who decided they were too old for Halloween before the lure of free candy drove them sheepishly into the streets--or use them for storage around the house, at least temporarily.)
The mutant bag of bags lives, of course, in the car.
posted by sciatrix at 3:06 PM on August 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
not because being environmentally conscious isn't "macho", but because I felt I was putting the cashiers and baggers in a bad spot having to deal with a bunch of bags that don't retain their shape
Another odd one for us in large parts of Europe because you're expected to pack your own bag, and discount grocers like Aldi and Lidl fire purchases at you at 2-4 items a second.
posted by kersplunk at 3:08 PM on August 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Another odd one for us in large parts of Europe because you're expected to pack your own bag, and discount grocers like Aldi and Lidl fire purchases at you at 2-4 items a second.
posted by kersplunk at 3:08 PM on August 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
One huge plus of many (though not all) reusable bags is that the handles are much, much more comfortable than the ones on disposable plastic bags. Some have straps that can go on your shoulders. Both of these can be a big help when it's painful to use your hands, but you still need to bring your groceries home. I wish I'd been carrying some to give away the last time I helped a neighbor carry her groceries home from the bus stop (the plastic bags were just not working for her.)
posted by asperity at 3:09 PM on August 28, 2018
posted by asperity at 3:09 PM on August 28, 2018
(Also, when they charge for reusable plastic grocery bags, the results suck for dog poop bags. They're larger and more capacious and thicker so they hold up over time, making it rather like trying to gently tap your dog's leavings into a large beach tote. It's better to buy a roll of the purpose-made ones, which are also helpfully smaller and therefore use less plastic to produce than single-use grocery bags as well as fitting neatly into a handy roll that can be clipped to a dog lead. Single-use grocery bags also accumulate over time to the point that no one I know successfully reuses all of them, and bags-of-bags still accumulate and grow unused.
I miss my free poop bags, but if you're really that cheap you can usually get free ones at dog parks and apartment complexes desperate to stem the tide of unconsidered dogshit.)
posted by sciatrix at 3:12 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I miss my free poop bags, but if you're really that cheap you can usually get free ones at dog parks and apartment complexes desperate to stem the tide of unconsidered dogshit.)
posted by sciatrix at 3:12 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Purpose-made dog poop bags are so much better, y'all. They don't have holes from use and the rolls fit neatly into a convenient little dispenser. Plus they're smaller (though still plenty big - think the size of a produce-department bag rather than a handled bag) so they use less plastic. Going back to reused ones would be such a pain now.
posted by mosst at 3:23 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by mosst at 3:23 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
Also a $15 pack of 1000 lasts me around a year - it's really not too bad, price-wise. Definitely cheaper than paying the 5 cent fee every time.
posted by mosst at 3:26 PM on August 28, 2018
posted by mosst at 3:26 PM on August 28, 2018
They should make the dog poop bags out of paper or paper with wax on it as an even better improvement.
posted by agregoli at 3:27 PM on August 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 3:27 PM on August 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Biodegradable dog bags are a thing. A cheap thing.
posted by q*ben at 3:30 PM on August 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 3:30 PM on August 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Biodegradable rarely actually IS biodegradable in a landfill.
posted by agregoli at 3:31 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 3:31 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Looking around my room, I can see half-a-dozen of the large re-useable "bags for life" that the UK supermarkets sell. The shops charge you 10p for the first one, then when they develop holes or the handles fall off they replace them with a new one and recycle the old one. The problem is that all of mine are being used for storage of other things (mainly fabric sorted for patchwork projects), because they are nice and sturdy, and only cost 10p.
I have several of the dinky re-useable bags that come in their own little wallet , because they seem to be popular as small presents. Most of them are too small and floppy and the little wallet invariably gets lost. I have found the perfect bag, though, from a company called Trashy Bags, who make them from discarded water pouches in Ghana. Their smart bag is big, strong (tested to 20 kg), stands up on its own and has a built-in pouch it zips into. I bought mine at a fair but I think you can get them via Amazon.
posted by Fuchsoid at 3:39 PM on August 28, 2018
I have several of the dinky re-useable bags that come in their own little wallet , because they seem to be popular as small presents. Most of them are too small and floppy and the little wallet invariably gets lost. I have found the perfect bag, though, from a company called Trashy Bags, who make them from discarded water pouches in Ghana. Their smart bag is big, strong (tested to 20 kg), stands up on its own and has a built-in pouch it zips into. I bought mine at a fair but I think you can get them via Amazon.
posted by Fuchsoid at 3:39 PM on August 28, 2018
Biodegradable rarely actually IS biodegradable in a landfill.<>
You can find out exactly how they will break down thanks to people who check. Plus you can even get water soluble dog waste bags that can be flushed...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 3:43 PM on August 28, 2018
You can find out exactly how they will break down thanks to people who check. Plus you can even get water soluble dog waste bags that can be flushed...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 3:43 PM on August 28, 2018
When Austin first went bagless, free bags were every where. It's an excellent way for businesses to advertise because they know you'll use them!
My boyfriend keeps the bag of bags in his car but since I use the bus i keep some that collapse very small in my purse.
I have no problem getting bags to clean the litter box because there are still way too many around in general. Once neighboring cities go bagless, I might have more trouble finding them, but for now I don't.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:03 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
My boyfriend keeps the bag of bags in his car but since I use the bus i keep some that collapse very small in my purse.
I have no problem getting bags to clean the litter box because there are still way too many around in general. Once neighboring cities go bagless, I might have more trouble finding them, but for now I don't.
posted by tofu_crouton at 4:03 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
i am trying to be better wrt bags and it's actually become a lot easier to remember reusable bags now that i can't carry more than a single full bag at a time, so silver-ish linings i guess.
HOWEVER. fresh direct has switched over to big insulated reusable bags for deliveries, which??? i guess??? is maybe better than recyclable cardboard boxes?? somehow?? idk man. a lot of things that were formerly stacked neatly inside cardboard boxes are now individually wrapped in small grocery-produce-section sized plastic bags that accumulate in astonishing numbers after a month of deliveries and i'm trying to reuse them as bathroom bin bags but soon i'm going to be out on the street chasing dog owners and saying hey bro do you need some bags, i got some bags right here, pls take these bags.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:08 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
HOWEVER. fresh direct has switched over to big insulated reusable bags for deliveries, which??? i guess??? is maybe better than recyclable cardboard boxes?? somehow?? idk man. a lot of things that were formerly stacked neatly inside cardboard boxes are now individually wrapped in small grocery-produce-section sized plastic bags that accumulate in astonishing numbers after a month of deliveries and i'm trying to reuse them as bathroom bin bags but soon i'm going to be out on the street chasing dog owners and saying hey bro do you need some bags, i got some bags right here, pls take these bags.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:08 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
"This isn't about masculinity or macho-ness about not considering the environment, but another more male-attribute that gets me into trouble: you mean I have to plan to go to the grocery store? Like, know I'm going to buy twenty things that fit into four bags, and also make sure I have four bags with me when I enter the store?"
I don't think it's tied to my maleness, but I recently discovered with ex who made it clear how much she hated shopping with me, how many idiotic shopping habits I have. She didn't particularly enjoy doing it with anyone, but I in particular hit pretty much every note of a bad grocery shopper, even if she did like shopping with a partner. She liked to go in with a well defined list of items to get and immediately set out to get them. By all accounts, her methods were inarguably more efficient and effective for the purposes of avoiding impulse purchases and various other psychological tricks employed in grocery stores. I tend to go into the store with a vague mental list of things I can remember thinking I needed to re-up on, sometimes I'll write a list to cut down on things I forget. Generally though, I tend to pick up lots of this or that on a whim if it look good to me or I think I might want it later. I enjoyed being made very aware of my deeply problematic shopping methods, even if I pretty much shop the same way now. Planning in general is not a quality of mine, I live every day like I don't want to have to see tomorrow. A prudent shopper will have a defined list of items to get as well as vessels to bring them home.
Regarding bags, I have one bigass tote I like to try and remember to bring when I go shopping, if I actually plan the shopping trip ahead of time. My main goal after shopping is to get everything in the house in one trip, including unlocking the door and carrying Special Cup at the same time. Big Ass Tote really helps when I have larger items that usually demand personal attention, like a box of lacroix. I think for effective change to take place regarding bag use, more places have to adopt policies mentioned above that already work in areas. If bringing your own bags becomes the path of least resistance, it will become the path most tread.
posted by GoblinHoney at 4:13 PM on August 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's tied to my maleness, but I recently discovered with ex who made it clear how much she hated shopping with me, how many idiotic shopping habits I have. She didn't particularly enjoy doing it with anyone, but I in particular hit pretty much every note of a bad grocery shopper, even if she did like shopping with a partner. She liked to go in with a well defined list of items to get and immediately set out to get them. By all accounts, her methods were inarguably more efficient and effective for the purposes of avoiding impulse purchases and various other psychological tricks employed in grocery stores. I tend to go into the store with a vague mental list of things I can remember thinking I needed to re-up on, sometimes I'll write a list to cut down on things I forget. Generally though, I tend to pick up lots of this or that on a whim if it look good to me or I think I might want it later. I enjoyed being made very aware of my deeply problematic shopping methods, even if I pretty much shop the same way now. Planning in general is not a quality of mine, I live every day like I don't want to have to see tomorrow. A prudent shopper will have a defined list of items to get as well as vessels to bring them home.
Regarding bags, I have one bigass tote I like to try and remember to bring when I go shopping, if I actually plan the shopping trip ahead of time. My main goal after shopping is to get everything in the house in one trip, including unlocking the door and carrying Special Cup at the same time. Big Ass Tote really helps when I have larger items that usually demand personal attention, like a box of lacroix. I think for effective change to take place regarding bag use, more places have to adopt policies mentioned above that already work in areas. If bringing your own bags becomes the path of least resistance, it will become the path most tread.
posted by GoblinHoney at 4:13 PM on August 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I use our own bags when I go to Trader Joe's but the local supermarkets make it so difficult that I don't usually bother. The bagging is usually done on the cashier's side of the counter and they usually go so fast that they've got half the stuff bagged in plastic before you can pull out your bags.
posted by octothorpe at 4:36 PM on August 28, 2018
posted by octothorpe at 4:36 PM on August 28, 2018
I live on the Colorado river in Austin. There were always always always always (no kidding -- always!) bags caught up in the trees. They were ugly, they were annoying, they were a sign that ppl care way less about our town than about their little conveniences.
Almost immediately after "free" plastic bags were/are no longer available, the hike/bike trail is so much nicer. No more plastic bags in the trees.
(Nothing is free, though big plastic (ie big oil) wants us to think so. It all has a cost, even if just getting all of that garbage out of our trees.)
I'm not sure which state it was that I was in on a run up the west coast, though I think it was Oregon; they had a return fee if you bought a coke in a plastic bottle -- was it a buck? Put the burden back on big oil, make them participate in the cleanup of the nightmare they promulgate.
If items wrapped or bottled in plastic *really* cost what they cost us, people would become very, very conscious of conspicuous consumption.
Related: Maybe six years ago, the cost of gasoline shot through the roof, maybe double what it is today. It was really great -- I could actually ride my bicycle down the street without fear of getting run down, because pretty much no one was driving. People even began to ride on the buses! I wished that the price would have doubled again; it really was nice to be able to enjoy Austin in that way.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:53 PM on August 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
Almost immediately after "free" plastic bags were/are no longer available, the hike/bike trail is so much nicer. No more plastic bags in the trees.
(Nothing is free, though big plastic (ie big oil) wants us to think so. It all has a cost, even if just getting all of that garbage out of our trees.)
I'm not sure which state it was that I was in on a run up the west coast, though I think it was Oregon; they had a return fee if you bought a coke in a plastic bottle -- was it a buck? Put the burden back on big oil, make them participate in the cleanup of the nightmare they promulgate.
If items wrapped or bottled in plastic *really* cost what they cost us, people would become very, very conscious of conspicuous consumption.
Related: Maybe six years ago, the cost of gasoline shot through the roof, maybe double what it is today. It was really great -- I could actually ride my bicycle down the street without fear of getting run down, because pretty much no one was driving. People even began to ride on the buses! I wished that the price would have doubled again; it really was nice to be able to enjoy Austin in that way.
posted by dancestoblue at 4:53 PM on August 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
Obligatory: FUTURESTATES | Plastic Bag
(voiced by Werner Herzog)
posted by dancestoblue at 4:54 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
(voiced by Werner Herzog)
posted by dancestoblue at 4:54 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I love when you buy potato chips at the 7-11 and they stick the bag of chips in a bag and hand it to you.
posted by octothorpe at 4:58 PM on August 28, 2018
posted by octothorpe at 4:58 PM on August 28, 2018
i hold my chips under a napkin to hide my shame from god
posted by poffin boffin at 5:08 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:08 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
I hate to sound like the village old fart, but I grew up before plastic anything. We got along just fine and did not miss the damn bags,
posted by charlesminus at 5:09 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by charlesminus at 5:09 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
charelsminus: We're in the process of banning single use plastic bags here in Queensland, Australia and man alive the amount of bitching from the old people about how will they line their bins or pick up pet poo or whatever is mindboggling. Like, calm down, Merthyr, you'd over 70 and used to exist just fine without them.
posted by Jilder at 5:17 PM on August 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Jilder at 5:17 PM on August 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
From the comments above my own experience in DC where we and neighboring Montgomery County (a total population of nearly 2 million people) have implemented a tax on these disposable plastic bags, this trend ought to have been noted in the otherwise fine article.
posted by exogenous at 5:21 PM on August 28, 2018
posted by exogenous at 5:21 PM on August 28, 2018
The shame is that none of this matters in any real sense. I’ve actually gotten more and more pissed at how the responsibility for polluting falls on those of us who are least responsible. We know that all pollution, including plastic pollution, is overwhelmingly the result of industry. But our solutions are focused on, and have an impact on, consumers. We are made to feel like WE are responsible, that the inconveniences visited upon us are for our own good, when the reality is that downstream efforts are really worthless. IOW, we bear the burden while the real pollution goes on unabated. Fuck that shit.
posted by OmieWise at 6:05 PM on August 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 6:05 PM on August 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
I use our own bags when I go to Trader Joe's but the local supermarkets make it so difficult that I don't usually bother. The bagging is usually done on the cashier's side of the counter and they usually go so fast that they've got half the stuff bagged in plastic before you can pull out your bags.
The convention where I live is to load all your groceries onto the conveyor belt and then lay your bag(s) on top of them so that it's the first thing the cashier/bagger sees.
posted by mannequito at 6:12 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
The convention where I live is to load all your groceries onto the conveyor belt and then lay your bag(s) on top of them so that it's the first thing the cashier/bagger sees.
posted by mannequito at 6:12 PM on August 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
you mean I have to plan to go to the grocery store? Like, know I'm going to buy twenty things that fit into four bags, and also make sure I have four bags with me when I enter the store?
That's exactly the sort of thing that would be second nature to you if you went grocery shopping on a regular basis, and also put together a shopping list beforehand.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:18 PM on August 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
That's exactly the sort of thing that would be second nature to you if you went grocery shopping on a regular basis, and also put together a shopping list beforehand.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:18 PM on August 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Kenya has banned plastic bags. If a country in which many, many people have few alternatives or extra money for alternatives can manage, I'd imagine that the US can figure out something to do.
posted by ChuraChura at 6:29 PM on August 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 6:29 PM on August 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I'm old enough to know when paper bags gave way to plastic. There's no reason for plastic. The only thing I can think of that is a small benefit is that plastic can hold bloody dripping meat--and that wouldn't be necessary if it were packaged right to begin with!
Vegetables? We don't need plastic around them or plastic bags to put them in. They're better in paper anyway. Checker can't see into them? Open the damn top. Drives me nuts when I go to WinCo, and I have 2 2/2 feet of plastic bag to put a bunch of bananas or a head of cabbage in. I'm going to take it out when I get home, as most veg and fruit doesn't keep well in plastic. WinCo bulk items could easily go into paper bags, also. If it really, really, really is an issue that cashiers need to see the items, then a small cellophane window could be inserted into the bag front, and that would still make a world of difference in pollution by plastic.
Can we get rid of plastic bottles for milk, juice, and sodas? Put milk and juices into heavy duty glass bottles that are returnable and refillable. We know how to make glass tough enough to stand up to the wear--shower doors and patio doors are incredibly hard to break.
Sodas in plastic bottles are evil. They should be in recyclable cans or back to reusable bottles with enough of a deposit on them to make it worth the while to return. Don't get me started on water.
Yogurt, cottage cheese, and other items should come in waxed cartons like ice cream.
We should use only reusable/recyclable items. Non-recyclable plastic is just evil.
And the guy that invented Styrofoam should spend eternity in hell.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:31 PM on August 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
Vegetables? We don't need plastic around them or plastic bags to put them in. They're better in paper anyway. Checker can't see into them? Open the damn top. Drives me nuts when I go to WinCo, and I have 2 2/2 feet of plastic bag to put a bunch of bananas or a head of cabbage in. I'm going to take it out when I get home, as most veg and fruit doesn't keep well in plastic. WinCo bulk items could easily go into paper bags, also. If it really, really, really is an issue that cashiers need to see the items, then a small cellophane window could be inserted into the bag front, and that would still make a world of difference in pollution by plastic.
Can we get rid of plastic bottles for milk, juice, and sodas? Put milk and juices into heavy duty glass bottles that are returnable and refillable. We know how to make glass tough enough to stand up to the wear--shower doors and patio doors are incredibly hard to break.
Sodas in plastic bottles are evil. They should be in recyclable cans or back to reusable bottles with enough of a deposit on them to make it worth the while to return. Don't get me started on water.
Yogurt, cottage cheese, and other items should come in waxed cartons like ice cream.
We should use only reusable/recyclable items. Non-recyclable plastic is just evil.
And the guy that invented Styrofoam should spend eternity in hell.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:31 PM on August 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
"And the guy that invented Styrofoam should spend eternity in hell."
I don't think that's the person to send to hell. It's whatever companies that decided to start stuffing the empty space in boxes with it and making trash out of it like cups and plates.
posted by GoblinHoney at 6:36 PM on August 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I don't think that's the person to send to hell. It's whatever companies that decided to start stuffing the empty space in boxes with it and making trash out of it like cups and plates.
posted by GoblinHoney at 6:36 PM on August 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
That's exactly the sort of thing that would be second nature to you if you went grocery shopping on a regular basis, and also put together a shopping list beforehand.
Seeing as I do, literally, all the shopping (and all the cooking), and go approximately 4 times a week on average, on a rough estimate, I'd say I'm on a pretty regular basis. The list thing, however, is my weak point. Plus, if I make a list, on the notepad next to the fridge (placed there specifically for the purpose of making a grocery list as we discover we're in need of items) the completed list has to make it into my pocket before I go to the store after work so I know what to buy. Bringing the list with is a skill I've gotten pretty good at, but am still a little weak on actually putting everything I intend to purchase on a pre-assembled list.
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list? I used to stop at the grocery store almost daily, because the idea of figuring out what I'd want to eat for dinner three days from now seemed absurd. I'm now at the point where I'll buy, like, five things, in hope that I feel like making some of them over the coming several days. We rarely throw out food, so I think I'm doing pretty good at it, but organizing future potential eating into shopping lists is still a bit of a mystery.
Edit: For example, if I know I need milk and eggs because the list in my pocket says so, it is nearly impossible to tell whether I'm going to come home with just milk and eggs, or if I come home with a bunch of on-sale steaks and pork chops to go in the freezer, or they have the pizzas we like in-stock so I buy ten of them, or Hamburger Helper is on sale so I buy five boxes for the pantry, or if ham sounds good so I also get a ten-pound bag of potatoes, or....and so on and so on.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:07 PM on August 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Seeing as I do, literally, all the shopping (and all the cooking), and go approximately 4 times a week on average, on a rough estimate, I'd say I'm on a pretty regular basis. The list thing, however, is my weak point. Plus, if I make a list, on the notepad next to the fridge (placed there specifically for the purpose of making a grocery list as we discover we're in need of items) the completed list has to make it into my pocket before I go to the store after work so I know what to buy. Bringing the list with is a skill I've gotten pretty good at, but am still a little weak on actually putting everything I intend to purchase on a pre-assembled list.
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list? I used to stop at the grocery store almost daily, because the idea of figuring out what I'd want to eat for dinner three days from now seemed absurd. I'm now at the point where I'll buy, like, five things, in hope that I feel like making some of them over the coming several days. We rarely throw out food, so I think I'm doing pretty good at it, but organizing future potential eating into shopping lists is still a bit of a mystery.
Edit: For example, if I know I need milk and eggs because the list in my pocket says so, it is nearly impossible to tell whether I'm going to come home with just milk and eggs, or if I come home with a bunch of on-sale steaks and pork chops to go in the freezer, or they have the pizzas we like in-stock so I buy ten of them, or Hamburger Helper is on sale so I buy five boxes for the pantry, or if ham sounds good so I also get a ten-pound bag of potatoes, or....and so on and so on.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:07 PM on August 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Almost immediately after "free" plastic bags were/are no longer available, the hike/bike trail is so much nicer. No more plastic bags in the trees.
One week after our city enacted a plastic bag ban, the tree outside our apartment became permanently inhabited by a canvas reusable grocery bag.
We've since moved but I bet it's still there.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:13 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
One week after our city enacted a plastic bag ban, the tree outside our apartment became permanently inhabited by a canvas reusable grocery bag.
We've since moved but I bet it's still there.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:13 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you drive to the store to do your grocery shopping, it's so easy to just have a few reusable bags in the trunk and grab them on your way into the store. The bags can hold so much that it isn't difficult to estimate how many you'll need on a given trip.
I love my reusable shopping bags. I got these nice ones at a Stop & Shop in New Jersey four years ago that I'm still using regularly. At that particular Stop & Shop, customers had the option of carrying a grocery scanner around the store with them so they could scan and bag their groceries as they shop, so then when you're done all you have to do is pay and leave.
This was in fact a great way to get comfortable with reusable shopping bags, because otherwise you'd have to grab a bunch of plastic bags at the front of the store and fumble around with them in the cart. I don't have that option where I live anymore, but I still like using my own bags in the self-checkout line. At Target, when you bring your own bags, you get 5 cents off for every bag you bring.
If you live near a Mitsuwa Marketplace, they sell nice reusable bags with a plastic flap at the bottom for added sturdiness.
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list?
Yes. Planning meals in advance can actually be quite liberating.
posted by bananana at 7:15 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
I love my reusable shopping bags. I got these nice ones at a Stop & Shop in New Jersey four years ago that I'm still using regularly. At that particular Stop & Shop, customers had the option of carrying a grocery scanner around the store with them so they could scan and bag their groceries as they shop, so then when you're done all you have to do is pay and leave.
This was in fact a great way to get comfortable with reusable shopping bags, because otherwise you'd have to grab a bunch of plastic bags at the front of the store and fumble around with them in the cart. I don't have that option where I live anymore, but I still like using my own bags in the self-checkout line. At Target, when you bring your own bags, you get 5 cents off for every bag you bring.
If you live near a Mitsuwa Marketplace, they sell nice reusable bags with a plastic flap at the bottom for added sturdiness.
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list?
Yes. Planning meals in advance can actually be quite liberating.
posted by bananana at 7:15 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
One issue I have around any anti-plastic is how it puts the shame and responsibility onto consumers - rather than were it belongs - on the producers. For example, it was companies that sold the idea to consumers in the first place.
But the biggest issue and onus should be on the producers, stores, manufacturers, to work on reducing waste and creating more eco friendly materials and then PROVIDING them, easily, to consumers. It feels very similar to the ableist discussions about straws as non-plastic straws are not accessible for everyone and yet the shame is forced on the consumers.
By all means, we should do what we can do reduce our impact on the environment. But the responsibility and consequences needs to shift more toward producers.
posted by Crystalinne at 7:35 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
“The Plastic Grocery Sack Council says plastic bags can be reused in more than 17 different ways,” the Los Angeles Times reported in 1986, “including as a wrap for frozen foods, a jogger’s wind breaker or a beach bag.”If a grocery store chain provides GOOD paper bags and reusable bags only, then it's done! But instead, consumers are shamed for not buying and bringing their own bags and shamed about recycling. Reusable bags and recycling are not always available to everyone.
They’re collected separately from other recyclables, typically at supermarkets, and are incompatible with commingled, curbside recycling, which rely on automated sorting machines.We do what we can to reduce plastic and recycle. We got some nice canvas bags, which means no more cans ripping through plastic and tumbling down 3 flights of stairs. But we still have to remember to bring them in, take them back out to the car, and hope that a store bagger doesn't just haphazardly throw stuff into them. We also don't have curbside recycling and only cardboard recycling at our apartment, which we do collect.
But the biggest issue and onus should be on the producers, stores, manufacturers, to work on reducing waste and creating more eco friendly materials and then PROVIDING them, easily, to consumers. It feels very similar to the ableist discussions about straws as non-plastic straws are not accessible for everyone and yet the shame is forced on the consumers.
By all means, we should do what we can do reduce our impact on the environment. But the responsibility and consequences needs to shift more toward producers.
posted by Crystalinne at 7:35 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I have two Chico bags attached to my purse that I use for whatever bag related need I have. It's rare that I'll need more than that at a time, since it'd have to be stuff I can carry for blocks/on the bus.
The biggest hassle with them is the arms race to make the cashier aware that I brought my own bag before they start bagging. It means unfurling the bags and blurting out "hello yes I brought my own bag please overwrite your muscle memory and give me my things", packing my own items while also getting payment ready to not hold up the line.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:02 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
The biggest hassle with them is the arms race to make the cashier aware that I brought my own bag before they start bagging. It means unfurling the bags and blurting out "hello yes I brought my own bag please overwrite your muscle memory and give me my things", packing my own items while also getting payment ready to not hold up the line.
posted by dinty_moore at 8:02 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
So successful has the ban been in Ireland, future generations of tourists are forever deprived of the sight of witches knickers on the wind....
posted by Wilder at 8:10 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Wilder at 8:10 PM on August 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Re: forgetting bags, as soon as I put away the groceries, I hang the bags on the doorknob, so next time I go out (if I'm going shopping), I can take them with. I don't always know when I'll be going shopping, though, and I don't want to take them with me everywhere I go.
posted by AFABulous at 8:15 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 8:15 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list? I used to stop at the grocery store almost daily, because the idea of figuring out what I'd want to eat for dinner three days from now seemed absurd. I'm now at the point where I'll buy, like, five things, in hope that I feel like making some of them over the coming several days. We rarely throw out food, so I think I'm doing pretty good at it, but organizing future potential eating into shopping lists is still a bit of a mystery.
My partner shops like this and it drives me a little bit nuts because I take the bus or have to cadge rides, and I never want to be in the grocery store after work because then I am tired and want to curl up in a corner and do nothing for a bit. But if I get a ride, I'm invariably doomed to wander the grocery aisles looking at what seems good, and to me nothing ever seems good at that time.
This does not mean that they don't pick up an awful lot of good deals I never would have seen, though. I just would honestly prefer to meal plan, cook a number of bulk things on the weekend, and eat them over the course of the week--which is what I did when I was single. Partner cooks, though, so partner gets to figure out how the shopping works, and I get to do other chores. It all works out in the end.
But that's why we bring a bag of bags with us on grocery trips instead of estimating everything we're going to grab. That way it doesn't matter if we use all of them; it's one fairly lightweight thing to grab as we move into the store, no further planning required. And we do sometimes forget--but the lure of avoiding the small bag tax usually encourages us to gather all our purchases in our arms or a cart and haul them out to the car, there to be transferred into the reusable bags.
Really, the small bag tax is the thing that makes change happen. I did not bother before the structural change of the new law made it easier to do this than to use a reusable bag; it's not that I don't care, but, well... I'm tired and it seemed like an awful lot to do and the change inertia is a powerful thing. And I was reusing the old bags! But, you know, purpose-made trash bags and dog bags are an awful lot nicer and easier to use, it turns out, and now when I get a plastic bag I hardly know what to do with it. The choices of an individual really don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things, but the choices of a large metropolitan area do, in the aggregate. Systematic changes like this on the level of a town or county or state are the things that actually enact change. I wonder how much more saleable those kinds of laws would be if they were paid with a corporate restriction of comparable annoyance--like, I'm doing my part to be sustainable, so why can't General Plastics do its?
posted by sciatrix at 8:20 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
My partner shops like this and it drives me a little bit nuts because I take the bus or have to cadge rides, and I never want to be in the grocery store after work because then I am tired and want to curl up in a corner and do nothing for a bit. But if I get a ride, I'm invariably doomed to wander the grocery aisles looking at what seems good, and to me nothing ever seems good at that time.
This does not mean that they don't pick up an awful lot of good deals I never would have seen, though. I just would honestly prefer to meal plan, cook a number of bulk things on the weekend, and eat them over the course of the week--which is what I did when I was single. Partner cooks, though, so partner gets to figure out how the shopping works, and I get to do other chores. It all works out in the end.
But that's why we bring a bag of bags with us on grocery trips instead of estimating everything we're going to grab. That way it doesn't matter if we use all of them; it's one fairly lightweight thing to grab as we move into the store, no further planning required. And we do sometimes forget--but the lure of avoiding the small bag tax usually encourages us to gather all our purchases in our arms or a cart and haul them out to the car, there to be transferred into the reusable bags.
Really, the small bag tax is the thing that makes change happen. I did not bother before the structural change of the new law made it easier to do this than to use a reusable bag; it's not that I don't care, but, well... I'm tired and it seemed like an awful lot to do and the change inertia is a powerful thing. And I was reusing the old bags! But, you know, purpose-made trash bags and dog bags are an awful lot nicer and easier to use, it turns out, and now when I get a plastic bag I hardly know what to do with it. The choices of an individual really don't amount to much in the grand scheme of things, but the choices of a large metropolitan area do, in the aggregate. Systematic changes like this on the level of a town or county or state are the things that actually enact change. I wonder how much more saleable those kinds of laws would be if they were paid with a corporate restriction of comparable annoyance--like, I'm doing my part to be sustainable, so why can't General Plastics do its?
posted by sciatrix at 8:20 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I just did a post on my blog, as a local supermarket's bag had caught in a lancewood tree by the library here in Gore, NZ. The logo was displayed very nicely. The supermarket stopped using branded bags almost overnight. Not quite the outcome I wanted, but it's hard living in a place that everyone knows is perfect.
posted by unearthed at 8:22 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by unearthed at 8:22 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
a jogger’s wind breaker
Really? Really? Tommy Lee Jones thinks this is bullshit look.jpeg
Another odd one for us in large parts of Europe because you're expected to pack your own bag, and discount grocers like Aldi and Lidl fire purchases at you at 2-4 items a second.
At my local US Aldi's you "rent" a grocery cart for 25 cents (you get the quarter back when you return the cart to the corral), and the cashier dumps everything in the cart and then against the wall there's a long counter where you can transfer your purchases to your reusable bags.
The MegaChain Grocery (Giant Eagle) near me has a sort of . . . . shed thing off to the side where you can dump your plastic bags for recycling, which, apparently, get recycled into a greyish sort of "fake wood" that the shed thing is made of. Better than nothing, I guess, but it looks like it would take about a zillion bags to make one plastic 2x4, so not very efficient.
I just had a Lucky's Market move in down the street from me and during the first few days they were open everyone got a free reusable bag. They bag with paper otherwise, unless you bring your own, in which case you can get a "wooden dime" for every reusable bag which you then drop into one of three slots in a big thingamambob by the exit. Each slot is for a different local charity, at the end of each quarter they double the amount collected & donate it and pick three new charities for the next quarter. A minor thing, but a nice incentive.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:58 PM on August 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Really? Really? Tommy Lee Jones thinks this is bullshit look.jpeg
Another odd one for us in large parts of Europe because you're expected to pack your own bag, and discount grocers like Aldi and Lidl fire purchases at you at 2-4 items a second.
At my local US Aldi's you "rent" a grocery cart for 25 cents (you get the quarter back when you return the cart to the corral), and the cashier dumps everything in the cart and then against the wall there's a long counter where you can transfer your purchases to your reusable bags.
The MegaChain Grocery (Giant Eagle) near me has a sort of . . . . shed thing off to the side where you can dump your plastic bags for recycling, which, apparently, get recycled into a greyish sort of "fake wood" that the shed thing is made of. Better than nothing, I guess, but it looks like it would take about a zillion bags to make one plastic 2x4, so not very efficient.
I just had a Lucky's Market move in down the street from me and during the first few days they were open everyone got a free reusable bag. They bag with paper otherwise, unless you bring your own, in which case you can get a "wooden dime" for every reusable bag which you then drop into one of three slots in a big thingamambob by the exit. Each slot is for a different local charity, at the end of each quarter they double the amount collected & donate it and pick three new charities for the next quarter. A minor thing, but a nice incentive.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:58 PM on August 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Why are people using grocery store bags to pick up dog poop? They have holes in the bottom to prevent suffocation. You are getting dog poop on your hands. Gross!!
posted by fshgrl at 9:04 PM on August 28, 2018
posted by fshgrl at 9:04 PM on August 28, 2018
Forgot -- when I shop Trader Joe's (and sometimes other outfits also but always Trader Joe's) I grab a few cardboard wine boxes to put my groceries into, then use the boxes as a recycle box in the kitchen, works out great. And free. And everything is getting recycled, and it's easy-peasy to do with a dang cardboard box handy.
posted by dancestoblue at 9:06 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by dancestoblue at 9:06 PM on August 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
You can totally do away with plastic bags...
Not allowed in Seattle, so bring your own or pay 5 cents for a compostable paper bag.
It's not rocket surgery.
posted by Windopaene at 10:21 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Not allowed in Seattle, so bring your own or pay 5 cents for a compostable paper bag.
It's not rocket surgery.
posted by Windopaene at 10:21 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Since I walk everywhere and live in a rainy area, I did/sometimes still do find plastic bags more reliable than paper. But I much prefer my string bag which can be compressed to a size that fits my pocket, either pants or coat, but stretches enough to hold a whole grocery store basket's worth of items and can be worn over my shoulder to carry home. As long as you are careful with objects that have sharp edges, the bags last for years, aren't expensive to buy, and are kinda rugged and manly looking being all raw and rope-like. You do have to put up with lots of people commenting on them though for being so effective.
posted by gusottertrout at 12:43 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by gusottertrout at 12:43 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
In my experience, my reusable back stock now takes up as much space as my previous disposable bag collection. I keep getting them free at fairs or baseball games or I forgot one and now have to buy one. I definitely have less by count but probably the same by volume because they never get folded as nice as they are when you first buy them. And because they’re reusable, I’m less likely to throw them away even though there’s only a couple I use regularly. What’s nice about German grocery stores is that there’s an option to buy a paper bag instead of only a plastic option. That’s really kept my reusable collection from growing.
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:51 AM on August 29, 2018
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:51 AM on August 29, 2018
dancestoblue: "Forgot -- when I shop Trader Joe's (and sometimes other outfits also but always Trader Joe's) I grab a few cardboard wine boxes to put my groceries into, then use the boxes as a recycle box in the kitchen, works out great. And free. And everything is getting recycled, and it's easy-peasy to do with a dang cardboard box handy."
Sigh. No wine at our TJs and thus no boxes.
posted by octothorpe at 4:18 AM on August 29, 2018
Sigh. No wine at our TJs and thus no boxes.
posted by octothorpe at 4:18 AM on August 29, 2018
Here in Arizona, they've banned plastic bag bans.
You read that right. It's illegal for towns in Arizona to ban plastic bags, or charge for recyclable bags.
posted by MrVisible at 5:02 AM on August 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
You read that right. It's illegal for towns in Arizona to ban plastic bags, or charge for recyclable bags.
posted by MrVisible at 5:02 AM on August 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
Plastic bag fee exists in the UK too. It's had an enormous impact (as well as the requisite amount of outrage and hypocrisy from the Daily Mail).
I think the key points have been covered above as to why this has been a massive non-issue in the end:
1) We tend to have to pack our own bags anyway
2) You can still buy bags if you need them
That second one is really the key driver of behavioral change. Because if it was a spontaneous shopping trip then no biggie, but if it was a conscious trip then even the manliest of men feels a bit stupid asking for bags all the time. Makes you look like you're incapable of even low-level planning. And that suggests to all and sundry that you're a crap hunter/gatherer, dude-bros.
Plus, over time, you realise you're hoarding Bags for Life and that takes cupboard space, and forces you to confront your own laziness.
I still end up buying them more than I should. But even I've now started keeping one carrier bag in my laptop bag on the off chance I need to pop into the supermarket on my way home from work.
Basically, the charge hasn't in any way eliminated the need for carrier bags, but what it has clearly done is massively impacted on the demand for them in situations that people could have easily anticipated. Because it's made using them a conscious, rather than subconscious action.
Indeed I do wonder if this is where most "sugar taxes" fail: the cost impact is hidden in the total consumer cost, so people don't really notice. Maybe following the same principle as the bag tax would be better - wait until checkout (in fast food places) and make the cashier have to specifically charge it:
"Coke Please"
"Sure. I'll have to add a sugar tax of 15p."
"Oh right. Actually, just gimmie a water instead."
God knows how you'd make that work in reality though!
posted by garius at 5:19 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think the key points have been covered above as to why this has been a massive non-issue in the end:
1) We tend to have to pack our own bags anyway
2) You can still buy bags if you need them
That second one is really the key driver of behavioral change. Because if it was a spontaneous shopping trip then no biggie, but if it was a conscious trip then even the manliest of men feels a bit stupid asking for bags all the time. Makes you look like you're incapable of even low-level planning. And that suggests to all and sundry that you're a crap hunter/gatherer, dude-bros.
Plus, over time, you realise you're hoarding Bags for Life and that takes cupboard space, and forces you to confront your own laziness.
I still end up buying them more than I should. But even I've now started keeping one carrier bag in my laptop bag on the off chance I need to pop into the supermarket on my way home from work.
Basically, the charge hasn't in any way eliminated the need for carrier bags, but what it has clearly done is massively impacted on the demand for them in situations that people could have easily anticipated. Because it's made using them a conscious, rather than subconscious action.
Indeed I do wonder if this is where most "sugar taxes" fail: the cost impact is hidden in the total consumer cost, so people don't really notice. Maybe following the same principle as the bag tax would be better - wait until checkout (in fast food places) and make the cashier have to specifically charge it:
"Coke Please"
"Sure. I'll have to add a sugar tax of 15p."
"Oh right. Actually, just gimmie a water instead."
God knows how you'd make that work in reality though!
posted by garius at 5:19 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
The bagging is usually done on the cashier's side of the counter and they usually go so fast that they've got half the stuff bagged in plastic before you can pull out your bags.
I put bags on the conveyer belt, followed by the stuff I want in that bag.
posted by zamboni at 5:38 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I put bags on the conveyer belt, followed by the stuff I want in that bag.
posted by zamboni at 5:38 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
We went to reusables years ago, but then switched to our grocery store's delivery service, so the plastic bags are back. We diligently recycle them at the store, but I wonder how efficient bag recycling is, and whether they'll figure out a way to do a bag exchange program or something so reusables can be used for the service. I imagine that online grocery shopping will become more popular over time and i hope they figure out a good solution.
posted by condour75 at 5:42 AM on August 29, 2018
posted by condour75 at 5:42 AM on August 29, 2018
We went to reusables years ago, but then switched to our grocery store's delivery service, so the plastic bags are back.
Morrisons (who we order from here) will take any bags you have off you at the end and then knock a bit off your next bill. So you hand back the last order's bags with this one, essentially. Think the other supermarkets do the same.
posted by garius at 5:50 AM on August 29, 2018
Morrisons (who we order from here) will take any bags you have off you at the end and then knock a bit off your next bill. So you hand back the last order's bags with this one, essentially. Think the other supermarkets do the same.
posted by garius at 5:50 AM on August 29, 2018
I love my string bags. I can carry a couple of them in my (small) purse, as they weigh next to nothing and don't take up a lot of space. They hold a TON, and they're washable. Together with one insulated bag, I'm pretty well covered.
My local cashiers have come to understand that I'm going to use them, and am happy to pack them myself; I hang the handles on the bag rack, or pack from the conveyor belt if the line allows and I just have a few things.
When I get in line, I put down the order divider, and then my bags, and then my groceries (frozen/cool items together for the insulated bag; boxes; cans and jars; shampoo/toothpaste/non-edibles; produce; squashables like bread and snacks.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:22 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
My local cashiers have come to understand that I'm going to use them, and am happy to pack them myself; I hang the handles on the bag rack, or pack from the conveyor belt if the line allows and I just have a few things.
When I get in line, I put down the order divider, and then my bags, and then my groceries (frozen/cool items together for the insulated bag; boxes; cans and jars; shampoo/toothpaste/non-edibles; produce; squashables like bread and snacks.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:22 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Tesco deliver without bags, or give the option to have bags and pay an extra 40p with the whole order.
It is amazing how much the 5p charge has reduced plastic bags - something like an 85% fall in bags. Was also fascinating to watch the tabloid press and so on lose it about how this would mean TOTAL CHAOS! just before the charge came in in England, when Wales and NI and Scotland were already doing it with no chaos in sight.
posted by Catseye at 6:24 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
It is amazing how much the 5p charge has reduced plastic bags - something like an 85% fall in bags. Was also fascinating to watch the tabloid press and so on lose it about how this would mean TOTAL CHAOS! just before the charge came in in England, when Wales and NI and Scotland were already doing it with no chaos in sight.
posted by Catseye at 6:24 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yes, we should have structural change that forces the worst polluters to stop. However, unlike with plastic straws, consumer use of plastic bags does make a noticeable difference in the immediate surroundings. The bags stuck in trees aren't there because of Big Plastic.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:56 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:56 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
The grocery chain Kroger (various names in the US) has declared that they will be phasing plastic bags out by 2025. So those of you who need to hoard them there is still time. It seems like a big deal to forget your reusable bags when you are not used to it, but southern California cities have banned them in grocery stores (and nowhere else) and I forgot to bring in a bag every time I went to the store. They still have carts, so you just put your purchases back in your cart and then cart to the car. Not really that big a deal.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:07 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:07 AM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
When I go to Costco they don't provide any bags, but they have all the boxes that things came to the store in, piled around the checkout area and unless you bring your reusable bags, they put your stuff in those boxes. So not only are the boxes being re-used at least one more time, but boxes are recyclable everywhere around here. With the size of the orders at Costco it would be ridiculous to put them in those tiny flimsy plastic bags, so no one bats an eye.
Gordon Food Service does this with boxes too. I would think most any store could; all the stuff is delivered to them in boxes so they do actually have them. It just takes the cultural shift to expect messy collections of mismatched boxes piled around the checkout area rather than just flattening them in a back room somewhere.
Also, the whole pre-consumer waste stream that is hidden from us is immense! Do you feel bad about the stacks of Amazon delivery boxes in your garage? Well, all those things you buy at the store are delivered to the store in not too many fewer boxes. And how many steps in the manufacturing stream, feature parts packed into boxed and transported? Boxes boxes boxes. Might as well use some of them more than once!
posted by elizilla at 7:24 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Gordon Food Service does this with boxes too. I would think most any store could; all the stuff is delivered to them in boxes so they do actually have them. It just takes the cultural shift to expect messy collections of mismatched boxes piled around the checkout area rather than just flattening them in a back room somewhere.
Also, the whole pre-consumer waste stream that is hidden from us is immense! Do you feel bad about the stacks of Amazon delivery boxes in your garage? Well, all those things you buy at the store are delivered to the store in not too many fewer boxes. And how many steps in the manufacturing stream, feature parts packed into boxed and transported? Boxes boxes boxes. Might as well use some of them more than once!
posted by elizilla at 7:24 AM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
i'm a man and i've been using reusable bags for at least ten years now. i'm kind of agog that anyone finds it difficult or unmanly but on the other hand nothing really surprises me anymore
posted by entropicamericana at 7:36 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 7:36 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
pre-emptive caveat: I do not actually find reusable bags overly burdensome, and am not complaining about them.
HOWEVER, I do not drive, and my store is ~1 mile from my house. There is no transit from here to there, so 100% of my shopping is done on foot. It is somewhat telling that most of the comments about "no seriously, this is so easy because..." end with "you just keep it/them/all the groceries loose in the car."
Carrying a beach-ball-sized nest of reusable bags with me literally everywhere I go, on foot, would in fact be a pretty substantial hassle. Obviously I will do so for a dedicated large shopping trip, but it obviates the "just stop in after the gym" trip or the "on the way home from work" trip.
The "fold up into a tiny pouch" bags are always in my purse, but they carry very little. The result is that a couple times a month, I have to purchase the 7-cent paper or plastic bag from the store to catch overflow.
This isn't an argument for free unlimited plastic grocery bags, just for the extremely low-cost (pennies) bag purchase/tax option at stores.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
HOWEVER, I do not drive, and my store is ~1 mile from my house. There is no transit from here to there, so 100% of my shopping is done on foot. It is somewhat telling that most of the comments about "no seriously, this is so easy because..." end with "you just keep it/them/all the groceries loose in the car."
Carrying a beach-ball-sized nest of reusable bags with me literally everywhere I go, on foot, would in fact be a pretty substantial hassle. Obviously I will do so for a dedicated large shopping trip, but it obviates the "just stop in after the gym" trip or the "on the way home from work" trip.
The "fold up into a tiny pouch" bags are always in my purse, but they carry very little. The result is that a couple times a month, I have to purchase the 7-cent paper or plastic bag from the store to catch overflow.
This isn't an argument for free unlimited plastic grocery bags, just for the extremely low-cost (pennies) bag purchase/tax option at stores.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
the original chicobag weighs 1,.5 oz empty and can carry 25 pounds of groceries *shrug*
posted by entropicamericana at 9:01 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 9:01 AM on August 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
My comments about putting them loose in the car were because the store I was going to basically required use of a car, but in my experience (somewhat limited but more than occasional) of walking those plastic bags fail so when I walk I do solid reusable bags exclusively.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:06 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:06 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Can we get rid of plastic bottles for milk, juice, and sodas? Put milk and juices into heavy duty glass bottles that are returnable and refillable. We know how to make glass tough enough to stand up to the wear--shower doors and patio doors are incredibly hard to break.
I am very pro-this idea but I have to note that it's only bc I am privileged enough to get my groceries delivered. Heavy containers for staples like milk and juice will make things more difficult for disabled people unless services for delivery and refill/return are as cheap as the cost of buying plastic disposables.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:22 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
I am very pro-this idea but I have to note that it's only bc I am privileged enough to get my groceries delivered. Heavy containers for staples like milk and juice will make things more difficult for disabled people unless services for delivery and refill/return are as cheap as the cost of buying plastic disposables.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:22 AM on August 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
I have spent approximately $4 on reuseable bags and keep two in my office and two at home. Two reuseable bags-worth is the maximum amount of groceries I can bring home with me at any given time when I walk to and from the grocery store. It's definitely easier to grocery shop in general with a car, but using reuseable bags doesn't really add any additional burden that plastic bags do not.
posted by ChuraChura at 9:26 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 9:26 AM on August 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I guess I don't understand why anyone aside from plastic bag manufacturers would be against the idea of anything being done to cut back on plastic bag waste. Inertia is real, but people adapt. A solution that works for most people seems better than doing nothing at all.
I'm really frustrated by this idea that it's somehow elitist, unmanly, or even un-American to care about this.
posted by bananana at 10:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm really frustrated by this idea that it's somehow elitist, unmanly, or even un-American to care about this.
posted by bananana at 10:25 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
The "fold up into a tiny pouch" bags are always in my purse, but they carry very little. The result is that a couple times a month, I have to purchase the 7-cent paper or plastic bag from the store to catch overflow.
Chico bags. Seriously. Take up little room in purse (no room if you hook them on the outside!), easier to deal with than the fold-in pouch kind, and two of them hold as much as I'm willing to walk with anyway (about 40-50 pounds, or the equivalent of four plastic bags). Have been using a rotation of four for three years and are only starting to show structural damage.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:43 AM on August 29, 2018
Chico bags. Seriously. Take up little room in purse (no room if you hook them on the outside!), easier to deal with than the fold-in pouch kind, and two of them hold as much as I'm willing to walk with anyway (about 40-50 pounds, or the equivalent of four plastic bags). Have been using a rotation of four for three years and are only starting to show structural damage.
posted by dinty_moore at 10:43 AM on August 29, 2018
(hi all I am the owner of 8 chico bags, I know what they're about.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:12 AM on August 29, 2018
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:12 AM on August 29, 2018
(would also direct all readers to the very first line of my post in which I explicitly stated that I do not find reusable bags a burden or subject for complaint in any way, just hey maybe having flexible options to accommodate the vastness of human experience isn't the worst of all possible worlds kthx.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:14 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:14 AM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
In Poland most adults are old enough to remember when disposable plastic bags appeared. Up until the early-mid 90s, when you went shopping, you carried your string tote or (if you were posh or had relatives abroad) a thicker plastic bag from a Western shop with the obligatory logo. In the 90s, people actually made bank on importing interesting logo-ed bags, to the point where our word for plastic bag is reklamówka - literally, advertising bag. This habit was so pervasive that today on the metro, there's an even split between women with actual canvas/leather totebags and those who carry their lunch/office shoes/etc in the cardboard and rope-handle bags posh shops have switched to.
We've had the levy from January this year and it really hasn't made waves apart from making Tesco delivery annoying (because the pack-in-bags option disappeared). Most people had some reusable bags anyway because the handles are comfier, they don't fall over when set on the floor in public transport or in the boot, and big-box grocery stores have whole collections of them. Currently the most popular model is this slightly creepy cat.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:11 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
We've had the levy from January this year and it really hasn't made waves apart from making Tesco delivery annoying (because the pack-in-bags option disappeared). Most people had some reusable bags anyway because the handles are comfier, they don't fall over when set on the floor in public transport or in the boot, and big-box grocery stores have whole collections of them. Currently the most popular model is this slightly creepy cat.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:11 PM on August 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
If you drive to the store to do your grocery shopping, it's so easy to just have a few reusable bags in the trunk and grab them on your way into the store.
Which is deeply hilarious, if you think about it. I remember reading in one of those "we should ban plastic bags" thinkpieces that the United States uses the amount of oil it takes to produce a year's worth of plastic bags IN ONE DAY on gasoline.
posted by Automocar at 1:17 PM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Which is deeply hilarious, if you think about it. I remember reading in one of those "we should ban plastic bags" thinkpieces that the United States uses the amount of oil it takes to produce a year's worth of plastic bags IN ONE DAY on gasoline.
posted by Automocar at 1:17 PM on August 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, absolutely either a model where you can return bags for a nearly-full-price deposit as they accumulate or else purchase another for a very small cost is essential. And if it's the second, you still need to have easily accessible and easy-to-accommodate recycling available for the inevitable bag overflows, so that when someone does wind up with more bags than they need, there's a place to put them. If this is an attempt to avoid waste, a lack of access to recycling options for the bags can actually worsen the problem, since the bags are thicker and larger and therefore can take up more waste if they're being used once and not again!
Part of the problem is also infrastructural--I do not drive most of the time, as I mentioned, and therefore there is no convenient way for me to access a grocery store. When buses come once every half hour, and that relatively unpredictably (with fifteen minutes' worth of lateness or earliness not being unusual), pausing my trip to stop off at the local grocery becomes a not-inconsiderable burden of time and effort. If I didn't have the option of a car trip to shop for groceries in a dedicated trip over the weekend, say, I would be right there with you. I mostly deal by carrying a backpack, which is similarly not great for everyone.
posted by sciatrix at 1:22 PM on August 29, 2018
Part of the problem is also infrastructural--I do not drive most of the time, as I mentioned, and therefore there is no convenient way for me to access a grocery store. When buses come once every half hour, and that relatively unpredictably (with fifteen minutes' worth of lateness or earliness not being unusual), pausing my trip to stop off at the local grocery becomes a not-inconsiderable burden of time and effort. If I didn't have the option of a car trip to shop for groceries in a dedicated trip over the weekend, say, I would be right there with you. I mostly deal by carrying a backpack, which is similarly not great for everyone.
posted by sciatrix at 1:22 PM on August 29, 2018
Heavy containers for staples like milk and juice will make things more difficult for disabled people...
Poffin Boffin, true dat.
In my perfect world of completely recyclable packaging, we would be a society that cares enough about people... whether disabled, pregnant, elderly, who ever is in need... to deliver these items without charge.
*sigh*
posted by BlueHorse at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2018
Poffin Boffin, true dat.
In my perfect world of completely recyclable packaging, we would be a society that cares enough about people... whether disabled, pregnant, elderly, who ever is in need... to deliver these items without charge.
*sigh*
posted by BlueHorse at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2018
Californian here. We voted in reusable plastic bags a year ago.
A few things to note:
o Did we go through a time and space warp where 10 cents is worth so much more than you would think? (Just 10 cents, folks, no big deal.)
o We can always undo shit we don't like: all these people who hate the reusable bags idea never seem to be enthused about an initiative to reverse the stupid thing. (Yeah, we can do that here.)
o So, instead of buying a fucking cheap bag, you're going to cart 25 or 50 items to your car, and you'll have to cart those very same items into your apartment or house.
o I have nothing to gain here either way. Just please stop the whining, it hurts my ears. ;-)
o The reusable bags say: reuse 125 times--maybe in another world, certainly not here.
posted by pjmoy at 2:45 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
A few things to note:
o Did we go through a time and space warp where 10 cents is worth so much more than you would think? (Just 10 cents, folks, no big deal.)
o We can always undo shit we don't like: all these people who hate the reusable bags idea never seem to be enthused about an initiative to reverse the stupid thing. (Yeah, we can do that here.)
o So, instead of buying a fucking cheap bag, you're going to cart 25 or 50 items to your car, and you'll have to cart those very same items into your apartment or house.
o I have nothing to gain here either way. Just please stop the whining, it hurts my ears. ;-)
o The reusable bags say: reuse 125 times--maybe in another world, certainly not here.
posted by pjmoy at 2:45 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
who ever is in need
i mean ideally it would be available to EVERYONE for the same low (or no) cost, because when a product or service is specified as only for X group, members of that group are always subject to intense and offensive scrutiny as to whether or not they legitimately deserve to have that product or service. frex: food stamps, disability income, &c. in the long run stuff like this will benefit everyone so default accessibility for all should be automatically be built into any kind of planning for the future of like. everything. humanity in general.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:30 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
i mean ideally it would be available to EVERYONE for the same low (or no) cost, because when a product or service is specified as only for X group, members of that group are always subject to intense and offensive scrutiny as to whether or not they legitimately deserve to have that product or service. frex: food stamps, disability income, &c. in the long run stuff like this will benefit everyone so default accessibility for all should be automatically be built into any kind of planning for the future of like. everything. humanity in general.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:30 PM on August 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese: You need a nanna cart on wheels. I have something very much like this one and if you get the style that's basically a huge sack on wheels it makes a huge difference to how much you can cart around after a shop.
posted by Jilder at 9:30 PM on August 29, 2018
posted by Jilder at 9:30 PM on August 29, 2018
I remember reading in one of those "we should ban plastic bags" thinkpieces that the United States uses the amount of oil it takes to produce a year's worth of plastic bags IN ONE DAY on gasoline.
And the counter to that, I suppose, is that mass-scale disposability is its own environmental problem additional to fossil fuels. (And plastic disposability specifically, given longevity of plastics and the harm they can do, but disposability is a problem in itself.)
I’m all for taking down car culture too, but given the drama we had over 5p carrier bags I fear that’s going to be a long-term goal.
posted by Catseye at 3:44 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
And the counter to that, I suppose, is that mass-scale disposability is its own environmental problem additional to fossil fuels. (And plastic disposability specifically, given longevity of plastics and the harm they can do, but disposability is a problem in itself.)
I’m all for taking down car culture too, but given the drama we had over 5p carrier bags I fear that’s going to be a long-term goal.
posted by Catseye at 3:44 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I agree with OmieWise, but I prefer reusables anyway. It helps avoid the massive accumulation of plastics in cupboards that are waiting to be reused. The reusables are more comfortable, hold a lot more, and hold a lot heavier stuff without breaking. They're easier to unpack than a cluster of 15 small bags with 1 or 2 things apiece in them. They're easier to carry, and if they go in the back of the car, they don't splay out and spill.
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list? I used to stop at the grocery store almost daily, because the idea of figuring out what I'd want to eat for dinner three days from now seemed absurd.
Not so specifically, but I do think about 3-4 dinners that week that are going to use similar clusters of ingredients - what night we eat them on isn't that important. Knowing that going into the store prevents splurging on something just because it looks good. I've had to have a long history of careful food budgeting, and part of what makes it work is getting away from the mentality that "what's for dinner" should be a daily audible call at 5 PM, and should obey whatever whim is passing at the moment. That seems like a habit driven by the capitalist consumer marketplace: cater to the id all the time! Indulge all impulse! It's not like planning takes any pleasure out of the eating. There are plenty of foods I like and look forward to eating, and nothing wrong with knowing in advance what they are. It also removes any internal debates about what I should be eating. It frees me from the tyranny of choice.
As far as petroleum use - like everything, these bags are pernicious on more than one level. I'd like to get rid of them because they penetrate the entire natural world, disfigure trees and landscapes, clog public utility drains and sewers, and harm wildlife, not just because they don't degrade, are inherently wasteful and are made of dinosaurs.
posted by Miko at 4:58 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Like, do people actually think, "I want to cook chicken Thursday, and steak Friday" and put it on their shopping list? I used to stop at the grocery store almost daily, because the idea of figuring out what I'd want to eat for dinner three days from now seemed absurd.
Not so specifically, but I do think about 3-4 dinners that week that are going to use similar clusters of ingredients - what night we eat them on isn't that important. Knowing that going into the store prevents splurging on something just because it looks good. I've had to have a long history of careful food budgeting, and part of what makes it work is getting away from the mentality that "what's for dinner" should be a daily audible call at 5 PM, and should obey whatever whim is passing at the moment. That seems like a habit driven by the capitalist consumer marketplace: cater to the id all the time! Indulge all impulse! It's not like planning takes any pleasure out of the eating. There are plenty of foods I like and look forward to eating, and nothing wrong with knowing in advance what they are. It also removes any internal debates about what I should be eating. It frees me from the tyranny of choice.
As far as petroleum use - like everything, these bags are pernicious on more than one level. I'd like to get rid of them because they penetrate the entire natural world, disfigure trees and landscapes, clog public utility drains and sewers, and harm wildlife, not just because they don't degrade, are inherently wasteful and are made of dinosaurs.
posted by Miko at 4:58 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
then there's those of us who would be okay with both banning single-use plastic bags and taxing the EVERLOVING FUCK out of gasoline
posted by entropicamericana at 6:35 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 6:35 AM on August 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I’m all for taking down car culture too, but given the drama we had over 5p carrier bags I fear that’s going to be a long-term goal.
Well, yeah. Lots of people live in areas that aren't walkable and aren't well-served by public transportation. I'd love for that to change too. Until it does, I'll keep driving to the store with my reusable bags.
posted by bananana at 6:55 AM on August 30, 2018
Well, yeah. Lots of people live in areas that aren't walkable and aren't well-served by public transportation. I'd love for that to change too. Until it does, I'll keep driving to the store with my reusable bags.
posted by bananana at 6:55 AM on August 30, 2018
« Older The river site, 63 years later | Star Wars Episode 8: Clark Griswold's Jedi... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Although they are great for picking up dog poo.
posted by Marky at 2:17 PM on August 28, 2018 [5 favorites]