Scoot The Future
April 26, 2019 8:23 AM Subscribe
Last year, people took 84 million trips on shared micromobility (ie bike and scooter share) in the United States, more than double the number of trips taken in 2017. This infographic-heavy report from the National Association of City Transportation Officials shows where and how these rapid increases are happening - including the stunning fact that almost all of that increase came from scooter share programs, which didn't even exist the year before. How are our cities grappling with this trend? And could it ultimately reshape the design of our streets?
Anything that’s not cars is great but...I wish we could go for a robust network of public transport that works for everyone. Scooters and rental bikes are not an option for many people (for ability and affordability reasons) and I‘m worried they‘ll lead to a decrease in pressure to build actual public transit.
posted by The Toad at 9:04 AM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by The Toad at 9:04 AM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I‘m worried they‘ll lead to a decrease in pressure to build actual public transit.
I don't think there could be a decrease in pressure (funding and support) to build public transit vs pressure to build infrastructure primarily for private transit.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:18 AM on April 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don't think there could be a decrease in pressure (funding and support) to build public transit vs pressure to build infrastructure primarily for private transit.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:18 AM on April 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
The social contract apparently does not extend to dockless scooters, which are just a plague all over the sidewalks in every city I've ever been to that has them. Woe betide you if you use a mobility device like a wheelchair or walker, or have a stroller, or are trying to take a run and wind up basically doing steeplechase.
And when you have young kids who need to travel with you.... ????????
We have docked bikes via a nonprofit/public partnership (if you have a public transit farecard you get a free 30 minutes on a bike daily, which is nice). The terrain here makes biking difficult for anyone who isn't in peak physical condition, though. You can look at a map of the bike stations and clearly make out the hilltop areas, because there's no docks there. No one would actually ride one of those heavy-ass bikeshare bikes up to any of those locations, but plenty of people do live there.
I'd honestly just prefer more buses.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
And when you have young kids who need to travel with you.... ????????
We have docked bikes via a nonprofit/public partnership (if you have a public transit farecard you get a free 30 minutes on a bike daily, which is nice). The terrain here makes biking difficult for anyone who isn't in peak physical condition, though. You can look at a map of the bike stations and clearly make out the hilltop areas, because there's no docks there. No one would actually ride one of those heavy-ass bikeshare bikes up to any of those locations, but plenty of people do live there.
I'd honestly just prefer more buses.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
The social contract apparently does not extend to dockless scooters, which are just a plague all over the sidewalks in every city I've ever been to that has them.
But should the response be to ban them, or to make more space for them (as discussed in the last link)? If the former - well, why? Especially when the demand for them is so clear?
The terrain here makes biking difficult for anyone who isn't in peak physical condition, though.
This is why I'm all for e-bikes. The AARP agrees - they are great options for people with limited mobility who would otherwise ride bikes if they could.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on April 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
But should the response be to ban them, or to make more space for them (as discussed in the last link)? If the former - well, why? Especially when the demand for them is so clear?
The terrain here makes biking difficult for anyone who isn't in peak physical condition, though.
This is why I'm all for e-bikes. The AARP agrees - they are great options for people with limited mobility who would otherwise ride bikes if they could.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on April 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
I live in San Francisco where these scooters are a fucking plague on our pedestrian population. It'll be a decade or more before the city finally starts any kind of enforcement of reasonable safety laws, as far as I can tell. Almost nobody wears a helmet, and many riders, smartly afraid of dealing with vehicular traffic, instead shift the risk to those of us on foot by deciding to ride on the sidewalks. I nearly get clipped by someone in the FiDi on one of these I'd say about once a week. When one does finally hit me (it's an if, not when, in my mind), you better believe I'll be lawyering up.
posted by allkindsoftime at 9:36 AM on April 26, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by allkindsoftime at 9:36 AM on April 26, 2019 [8 favorites]
so I used to be super cranky about rental scooters (I would speak at length about my desire to throw them into a lake), but upon reading some statistics that indicated that:
And like they are obviously unsafe, just palpably dangerous as hell, a recipe for full-body road rash, and not particularly useful for getting around (a typical scooter ride is way more expensive than bus fare, and often a little bit more expensive than app-based cab services), but also they are...
... gods help me...
... so fun. so, so fun. just a total blast to ride. Stupid, dangerous fun. but so fun.
And, like, I'm for a little bit of stupid dangerous fun. I'm completely 100% in support of things that turn cities into playgrounds. There needs to be regulatory work done to punish the rental companies when people park them in such a way as they block sidewalks — since you've got to take a picture of how you parked them to end a ride, it'd be relatively trivial for the companies to fine or ban bad parkers — but I would be sad if they were outlawed where I live. I like seeing packs of dumb kids scooting around on them. I like seeing packs of dumb office workers scooting around on them. I like 'em.
Buses for all, and scooters too.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:42 AM on April 26, 2019 [20 favorites]
- Wealthy people tend to disapprove of rental scooters, while working-class people tend to like them
- White people are more likely to dislike rental scooters, while PoC are more likely to like them
And like they are obviously unsafe, just palpably dangerous as hell, a recipe for full-body road rash, and not particularly useful for getting around (a typical scooter ride is way more expensive than bus fare, and often a little bit more expensive than app-based cab services), but also they are...
... gods help me...
... so fun. so, so fun. just a total blast to ride. Stupid, dangerous fun. but so fun.
And, like, I'm for a little bit of stupid dangerous fun. I'm completely 100% in support of things that turn cities into playgrounds. There needs to be regulatory work done to punish the rental companies when people park them in such a way as they block sidewalks — since you've got to take a picture of how you parked them to end a ride, it'd be relatively trivial for the companies to fine or ban bad parkers — but I would be sad if they were outlawed where I live. I like seeing packs of dumb kids scooting around on them. I like seeing packs of dumb office workers scooting around on them. I like 'em.
Buses for all, and scooters too.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 9:42 AM on April 26, 2019 [20 favorites]
But should the response be to ban them, or to make more space for them (as discussed in the last link)?
The problem, at least in my city, is not space, it is the fact that many of the users don't give a fuck about anyone else who uses the sidewalks. My section of the city has sidewalks with verges of equal width. Instead of putting them to the side on the verge, people regularly cast them down on the sidewalks blocking the whole thing. So all scooter companies need to start documenting the end position of the scooter and fining users who don't safely position them. It can be done, at least one company requires a photo of the park location.
Second, there needs to be enforcement of not riding them on sidewalks. My street is quiet, single-lane with wide bike lanes on either side, but again many scooter and some bike-share users ignore them for the sidewalk, sometimes riding two abreast even! The bike-share issue is not as bad as the scooters overall, I think people may be better socialized growing up that bikes should not be ridden on the sidewalk -- I do very occasionally see non-share bikes on the sidewalk, but not often.
But of course, enforcement isn't simple, because police mostly suck in the US. How do you set it up so that it is consistently enforced instead being used as another broken-window avenue to harass minorities? What do cops do when they try to stop someone for a ticket and some young idiot giggles and books off? I don't particularly want people killed or imprisoned in the name of teaching them to ride in the street. So there has to be thought put into it.
posted by tavella at 9:51 AM on April 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
The problem, at least in my city, is not space, it is the fact that many of the users don't give a fuck about anyone else who uses the sidewalks. My section of the city has sidewalks with verges of equal width. Instead of putting them to the side on the verge, people regularly cast them down on the sidewalks blocking the whole thing. So all scooter companies need to start documenting the end position of the scooter and fining users who don't safely position them. It can be done, at least one company requires a photo of the park location.
Second, there needs to be enforcement of not riding them on sidewalks. My street is quiet, single-lane with wide bike lanes on either side, but again many scooter and some bike-share users ignore them for the sidewalk, sometimes riding two abreast even! The bike-share issue is not as bad as the scooters overall, I think people may be better socialized growing up that bikes should not be ridden on the sidewalk -- I do very occasionally see non-share bikes on the sidewalk, but not often.
But of course, enforcement isn't simple, because police mostly suck in the US. How do you set it up so that it is consistently enforced instead being used as another broken-window avenue to harass minorities? What do cops do when they try to stop someone for a ticket and some young idiot giggles and books off? I don't particularly want people killed or imprisoned in the name of teaching them to ride in the street. So there has to be thought put into it.
posted by tavella at 9:51 AM on April 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
I don't think this is scooters versus transit, as much as it is both versus the private automobile and oil and construction industries. So, some ways forward for cities maybe:
- to plan on private auto ownership being a pretty big exception by 2050 (I honestly think that the privately owned 2000-3000 lb polluting box is finished; and if we don't sort this out, the planet is screwed)
- free public transit (including redesigned buses etc., frequent services, mass coverage, etc.)
- many car-free zones
- designated lanes for micro transport vehicles (they will feel safer with no cars and will use them)
- safe street design
- etc.
The scooters can be annoying, but currently that is because there is a certain tech bro macho disruption attitude to them. This will hopefully pass and they will become more useful.
posted by carter at 10:01 AM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
- to plan on private auto ownership being a pretty big exception by 2050 (I honestly think that the privately owned 2000-3000 lb polluting box is finished; and if we don't sort this out, the planet is screwed)
- free public transit (including redesigned buses etc., frequent services, mass coverage, etc.)
- many car-free zones
- designated lanes for micro transport vehicles (they will feel safer with no cars and will use them)
- safe street design
- etc.
The scooters can be annoying, but currently that is because there is a certain tech bro macho disruption attitude to them. This will hopefully pass and they will become more useful.
posted by carter at 10:01 AM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
The problem, at least in my city, is not space, it is the fact that many of the users don't give a fuck about anyone else who uses the sidewalks.
Yes, this. It's not so much where people are riding them (we don't have them in my city, so my experience is limited to visiting cities that do have them), it's where people leave them when they're done. THEY LEAVE THEM EVERYWHERE. It was the same when dockless bikes were a thing. Tossed into hedges, strewn all over the sidewalk, piled one on top of another as nonconsensual interactive art in the middle of public thoroughfares. I understand the advantages of dockless systems, but the disadvantage is that people just suck real hard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:02 AM on April 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
Yes, this. It's not so much where people are riding them (we don't have them in my city, so my experience is limited to visiting cities that do have them), it's where people leave them when they're done. THEY LEAVE THEM EVERYWHERE. It was the same when dockless bikes were a thing. Tossed into hedges, strewn all over the sidewalk, piled one on top of another as nonconsensual interactive art in the middle of public thoroughfares. I understand the advantages of dockless systems, but the disadvantage is that people just suck real hard.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:02 AM on April 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
The city of St Paul, MN got fed up with competing bike services a couple years ago and awarded a two year contract to one service (Lime) to see if it improved the situation. This winter, only one year into the deal and without much warning, Lime withdrew so there will be no bike sharing in the capital city this summer. There are a few scooter sharing services, including Lime, but no bikes. (Minneapolis will continue to have bike rentals concentrated in one company's hands.) It's not a huge loss to the companies because very little of the bike rental business originated in St Paul (reportedly only 7% for one vendor) but it leaves a hole for the residents. The city is considering its options for the summer of 2020.
I'm of two minds, because I like the idea of bike rentals. But the "leave them where it's convenient" model is not a great one, in my mind. There's been an unattended Lime bike parked outside my kids' school that hasn't moved since October. It was laying in the middle of the sidewalk for a few days, then parked on the boulevard, decorated for Christmas, frozen in a snowdrift, thawed back out, and recently gotten new "gifts" in its basket for Easter. It's been a half year and we're in the middle of the city. Scooters were almost worse last year because they were getting dumped all over the place and frequently fell over. They were deployed last week for 2019, so we'll see if this year goes better.
posted by Cris E at 10:03 AM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm of two minds, because I like the idea of bike rentals. But the "leave them where it's convenient" model is not a great one, in my mind. There's been an unattended Lime bike parked outside my kids' school that hasn't moved since October. It was laying in the middle of the sidewalk for a few days, then parked on the boulevard, decorated for Christmas, frozen in a snowdrift, thawed back out, and recently gotten new "gifts" in its basket for Easter. It's been a half year and we're in the middle of the city. Scooters were almost worse last year because they were getting dumped all over the place and frequently fell over. They were deployed last week for 2019, so we'll see if this year goes better.
posted by Cris E at 10:03 AM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
My city got the scooters last year but is getting rid of them. I think they could be good, but agree with the city council that the tech bro model of introduction is bullshit. These Silicon Valley elites just showed up and dumped them all over so they could disrupt ... whatever . They should have gone to the City government and asked permission for a trial . Then bid against the other vendors for a single contract , with docks. We don’t need 3 different brands of scooters piled all over the place .
posted by freecellwizard at 10:06 AM on April 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by freecellwizard at 10:06 AM on April 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
But should the response be to ban them, or to make more space for them (as discussed in the last link)? If the former - well, why? Especially when the demand for them is so clear?
I live in Providence, RI, a city that was founded in the 17th C and saw most of its central grid laid down in the 18th and 19th C. Sidewalks are really narrow; I’m not sure how we would “make space” for entrepreneurial scooters, especially since the scooter companies are predicated on looting, not building, infrastructure.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:20 AM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
I live in Providence, RI, a city that was founded in the 17th C and saw most of its central grid laid down in the 18th and 19th C. Sidewalks are really narrow; I’m not sure how we would “make space” for entrepreneurial scooters, especially since the scooter companies are predicated on looting, not building, infrastructure.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:20 AM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
I live in Providence, RI, a city that was founded in the 17th C and saw most of its central grid laid down in the 18th and 19th C. Sidewalks are really narrow
So your city's grid was mostly designed before the introduction of the car, and streets which were previously completely open to pedestrian traffic as well as horse-drawn vehicles are now exclusively reserved for cars. The space for scooters and other micromobility vehicles should be taken back from the space currently allocated for cars, not from the limited space pedestrians have been squeezed into.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:26 AM on April 26, 2019 [10 favorites]
So your city's grid was mostly designed before the introduction of the car, and streets which were previously completely open to pedestrian traffic as well as horse-drawn vehicles are now exclusively reserved for cars. The space for scooters and other micromobility vehicles should be taken back from the space currently allocated for cars, not from the limited space pedestrians have been squeezed into.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:26 AM on April 26, 2019 [10 favorites]
We do have a public-private bike program which selected its bases for locations that wouldn’t screw up pedestrian traffic. I don’t want to use it, but it was carefully designed at least, and people like and use it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:28 AM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:28 AM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
I live in Providence, RI, a city that was founded in the 17th C and saw most of its central grid laid down in the 18th and 19th C. Sidewalks are really narrow; I’m not sure how we would “make space” for entrepreneurial scooters, especially since the scooter companies are predicated on looting, not building, infrastructure.
We should carve out medium speed lanes, for bikes, skateboards, roller skates, rollerblades, scooters, e-bikes, e-scooters, Segways, hoverboards and the next dozen things that all fit the description of "smaller and slower than cars, but faster than pedestrians." But these should come from roadways -- most road lanes are wider than they should be, luckily.
For parking, here's a link to a scooter stand that costs all of 12 bucks. They are small and cheap enough you could put a handful on every block, and situate them in places where they don't disrupt the flow of pedestrian traffic, like next to mailboxes and utility cabinets and any of the other dozen things that appear on sidewalks. And once you started impounding all the scooters not parked on the stands, I reckon the companies would start to get serious about their own enforcement.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:34 AM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
We should carve out medium speed lanes, for bikes, skateboards, roller skates, rollerblades, scooters, e-bikes, e-scooters, Segways, hoverboards and the next dozen things that all fit the description of "smaller and slower than cars, but faster than pedestrians." But these should come from roadways -- most road lanes are wider than they should be, luckily.
For parking, here's a link to a scooter stand that costs all of 12 bucks. They are small and cheap enough you could put a handful on every block, and situate them in places where they don't disrupt the flow of pedestrian traffic, like next to mailboxes and utility cabinets and any of the other dozen things that appear on sidewalks. And once you started impounding all the scooters not parked on the stands, I reckon the companies would start to get serious about their own enforcement.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:34 AM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
At the Austin grocery store where I work, we have pretty good sized bike parking racks. But many people ride the scooters to the store then realize they can't carry their groceries and then call a Lyft or Uber or ride the bus home. This leaves our bike racks clogged with abandoned scooters and doesn't leave room for our bike riding shoppers to park their bikes. Our staff has to manually move them (they are heavy when unpowered) around to the side of the store to get them out of the way. They stack up until the various companies come to collect them whenever.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 10:37 AM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Or, I should add, you could set up larger bulk storage racks like this one; you could reduce a block's car storage by one and add storage for 60 scooters (or 20 scooters and 6 or 8 bikes).
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm still in the mostly honeymoon phase of them because I've only used them over the course of a weekend when I visited Detroit.
That said,
I think the public reaction and government reactions shouldn't be so much dissuade users from not using scooters on the sidewalk (via citations/tickets and scoffing at those users) that's visible in this thread
but focus more on:
"let's change the street layout so people feel more comfortable riding their bicycles or scooters in the street than they would on the sidewalk"
a humble nudibranch: maybe designate an additional spot or corral for scooters? (I understand you likely don't have agency to make that decision for the store)
posted by fizzix at 10:39 AM on April 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
And once you started impounding all the scooters not parked on the stands, I reckon the companies would start to get serious about their own enforcement.
Or they would just do what seems to have happened in quite a few cities and just fuck off forever in favor of a place where they won't have to hire extra employees to enforce policy and go around collecting scooters.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Or they would just do what seems to have happened in quite a few cities and just fuck off forever in favor of a place where they won't have to hire extra employees to enforce policy and go around collecting scooters.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
The linked report actually has some interesting conclusions in it; maybe nothing surprising if you've been paying attention to these systems but it's good to see some data behind it, such as:
-Network effect is real! I think this is an important point because there needs to be some realization that piecemeal rollout of new infrastructure can lead to its early demise. We see this a lot with bike lane implementation, where the city tries to remove some street parking to put it in and then they don't see the expected increased ridership because, well, the bike lane doesn't connect to anything. So they tear it out and put the parking back.
-Connections to other modes of transport are important. MassDOT actually released a bike plan recently that highlighted this exact issue, and they have plans to connect bike trails and lanes to commuter rail stations, increase bike parking, and offer bike share infrastructure at stations. Bikes and scooters can be effective "last mile" solutions for folks that live on the fringes of areas serviced by rail. In the Netherlands (Dutch biking mentioned in a post about transit, take a drink), the national rail system actually owns their own bike share program, and a lot of small town rail stations have what are essentially bike vending machines for these short-term rentals.
-Dockless scooters have beaten out dockless bikes. The report doesn't offer any conjectures as to why, but I would guess it's a combination of factors including cost (scooters are cheaper), size (easier to incentivize people to bring scooters home to charge), and possibly a novelty factor. Plus, we already have a societal paradigm of leaving bikes in designated bike places (I have to lock my personal bike up to something or it'll get stolen), so having docks doesn't really ask that much more of a bike share user.
-Docked bike share is cheaper than mass transit in many places. $1.25 per ride on average is certainly cheaper than riding the T, and that cost goes down with the low-income discounts the system provides. And around here, Blue Bikes is owned by the municipalities it operates in, which (I believe) eliminates a lot of the profit motive and encourages system penetration in to otherwise transit-poor areas. 85% of the greater Boston area is covered by Blue Bikes! And more expansions are planned!
I think the big takeaway here is that people want to use these systems if they have easy access to them. They're obviously not meant to replace buses and trains but to add another layer of transit accessibility on to the network.
posted by backseatpilot at 10:41 AM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
-Network effect is real! I think this is an important point because there needs to be some realization that piecemeal rollout of new infrastructure can lead to its early demise. We see this a lot with bike lane implementation, where the city tries to remove some street parking to put it in and then they don't see the expected increased ridership because, well, the bike lane doesn't connect to anything. So they tear it out and put the parking back.
-Connections to other modes of transport are important. MassDOT actually released a bike plan recently that highlighted this exact issue, and they have plans to connect bike trails and lanes to commuter rail stations, increase bike parking, and offer bike share infrastructure at stations. Bikes and scooters can be effective "last mile" solutions for folks that live on the fringes of areas serviced by rail. In the Netherlands (Dutch biking mentioned in a post about transit, take a drink), the national rail system actually owns their own bike share program, and a lot of small town rail stations have what are essentially bike vending machines for these short-term rentals.
-Dockless scooters have beaten out dockless bikes. The report doesn't offer any conjectures as to why, but I would guess it's a combination of factors including cost (scooters are cheaper), size (easier to incentivize people to bring scooters home to charge), and possibly a novelty factor. Plus, we already have a societal paradigm of leaving bikes in designated bike places (I have to lock my personal bike up to something or it'll get stolen), so having docks doesn't really ask that much more of a bike share user.
-Docked bike share is cheaper than mass transit in many places. $1.25 per ride on average is certainly cheaper than riding the T, and that cost goes down with the low-income discounts the system provides. And around here, Blue Bikes is owned by the municipalities it operates in, which (I believe) eliminates a lot of the profit motive and encourages system penetration in to otherwise transit-poor areas. 85% of the greater Boston area is covered by Blue Bikes! And more expansions are planned!
I think the big takeaway here is that people want to use these systems if they have easy access to them. They're obviously not meant to replace buses and trains but to add another layer of transit accessibility on to the network.
posted by backseatpilot at 10:41 AM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
hints of the faux scarcity arguments that i've heard some politicians bring up re: social programs.
we often find ourselves fighting over who gets to claim the small space left over after cars get everything, instead of kicking out the goddamn cars.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2019 [13 favorites]
we often find ourselves fighting over who gets to claim the small space left over after cars get everything, instead of kicking out the goddamn cars.
posted by lazaruslong at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2019 [13 favorites]
I agree that electric scooters shouldn’t be on the sidewalks. I also know that people are afraid of cycling as an alternative to driving due to safety worries. I hope someone can persuade more cities to invest in a network of cycle / scooter lanes which are properly segregated from traffic and pedestrians, as this solves both problems.
posted by Stark at 10:46 AM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by Stark at 10:46 AM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
Bird scooters have a 200 lb weight limit; I can't ride them. (My weight hovers around 200, maybe a bit less. With a backpack and jacket, it's more.)
Lime is 300 lbs, including 15 max for the basket. It also requires "a valid driver’s license (if required in your jurisdiction)." I don't have a license and am not up to researching the nuances of whether one is required, so that's out.
Spin has no weight limit but doesn't allow use during inclement weather or to transport animals, "living or otherwise." No grocery shopping that includes whole fish, I suppose.
Skip doesn't allow carrying a briefcase or backpack "if that item impedes your ability to operate the Scooter safely."
All of them require users to be over 18; as usual, children don't exist in the world of online commerce.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:02 AM on April 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
Lime is 300 lbs, including 15 max for the basket. It also requires "a valid driver’s license (if required in your jurisdiction)." I don't have a license and am not up to researching the nuances of whether one is required, so that's out.
Spin has no weight limit but doesn't allow use during inclement weather or to transport animals, "living or otherwise." No grocery shopping that includes whole fish, I suppose.
Skip doesn't allow carrying a briefcase or backpack "if that item impedes your ability to operate the Scooter safely."
All of them require users to be over 18; as usual, children don't exist in the world of online commerce.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:02 AM on April 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
From this news article:
The Cuomo plan...states that the devices could operate on public roads where speed limits have a posted maximum of 30 mph, though localities could let them operate on sidewalks...so long as electric scooter operators kept their speeds below 8 mph.
That seems reasonable to me, as that's a fast-ish human running speed.
I'd still prefer more people own e-scooters than rent, or at least use some type of dock. I suspect that engineering a dock to live in a former parking space and withstand weather might be a challenge.
posted by bagel at 11:10 AM on April 26, 2019
The Cuomo plan...states that the devices could operate on public roads where speed limits have a posted maximum of 30 mph, though localities could let them operate on sidewalks...so long as electric scooter operators kept their speeds below 8 mph.
That seems reasonable to me, as that's a fast-ish human running speed.
I'd still prefer more people own e-scooters than rent, or at least use some type of dock. I suspect that engineering a dock to live in a former parking space and withstand weather might be a challenge.
posted by bagel at 11:10 AM on April 26, 2019
All of them require users to be over 18
Your complaint there, if it is indeed genuine, is with the American legal system and tort law specifically.
posted by aramaic at 11:45 AM on April 26, 2019
Your complaint there, if it is indeed genuine, is with the American legal system and tort law specifically.
posted by aramaic at 11:45 AM on April 26, 2019
>> though localities could let them operate on sidewalks...so long as electric scooter operators kept their speeds below 8 mph.
> That seems reasonable to me, as that's a fast-ish human running speed.
The problem with 8 mph is that it is no fun whatsoever, which negates the point of the things. Better to ban them from sidewalks.
The ones around here seem to be capped around 15 mph, which is fast enough to be stupid and hilarious, but slow enough that falling off on asphalt would just be super painful rather than deadly. That seems reasonable to me.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:51 AM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
> That seems reasonable to me, as that's a fast-ish human running speed.
The problem with 8 mph is that it is no fun whatsoever, which negates the point of the things. Better to ban them from sidewalks.
The ones around here seem to be capped around 15 mph, which is fast enough to be stupid and hilarious, but slow enough that falling off on asphalt would just be super painful rather than deadly. That seems reasonable to me.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:51 AM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
> Lime is 300 lbs, including 15 max for the basket. It also requires "a valid driver’s license (if required in your jurisdiction)."
I know from personal experience that the Lime app is not smart enough to distinguish between a driver's license and a state-issued id for non-drivers.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:59 AM on April 26, 2019
I know from personal experience that the Lime app is not smart enough to distinguish between a driver's license and a state-issued id for non-drivers.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 11:59 AM on April 26, 2019
The space for scooters and other micromobility vehicles should be taken back from the space currently allocated for cars, not from the limited space pedestrians have been squeezed into.
Um, the streets here aren’t wide enough for cars. I live on a major artery, and it’s two lanes one way with some parking. One significant stretch is one rather roomy lane plus intermittent parking. Now the city is way too clogged with cars, and shifting to more mass transit and other options would be great, but there kind of isn’t any space to “carve out” unless you thinking of making major parts of the city car free, which seems like an extreme step. Instead, we get renter scooters making things worse.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:02 PM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
Um, the streets here aren’t wide enough for cars. I live on a major artery, and it’s two lanes one way with some parking. One significant stretch is one rather roomy lane plus intermittent parking. Now the city is way too clogged with cars, and shifting to more mass transit and other options would be great, but there kind of isn’t any space to “carve out” unless you thinking of making major parts of the city car free, which seems like an extreme step. Instead, we get renter scooters making things worse.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:02 PM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
> maybe designate an additional spot or corral for scooters?
“Bird Cage” corrals in Cincinnati via tactical urbanism
posted by Monochrome at 12:04 PM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
“Bird Cage” corrals in Cincinnati via tactical urbanism
posted by Monochrome at 12:04 PM on April 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'd still prefer more people own e-scooters than rent, or at least use some type of dock. I suspect that engineering a dock to live in a former parking space and withstand weather might be a challenge.
Most of the Blue Bike docks here in Boston were set up in former parking spaces. It works just fine. One parking space-sized docks fits something like a dozen bikes, and could fit probably twice as many scooters.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:31 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Most of the Blue Bike docks here in Boston were set up in former parking spaces. It works just fine. One parking space-sized docks fits something like a dozen bikes, and could fit probably twice as many scooters.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:31 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
There's been an unattended Lime bike parked outside my kids' school that hasn't moved since October.
And ( +1 888-546-3345 ) no one's called LimeBike about it ?
posted by y2karl at 1:08 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
And ( +1 888-546-3345 ) no one's called LimeBike about it ?
posted by y2karl at 1:08 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
> All of them require users to be over 18
Your complaint there, if it is indeed genuine, is with the American legal system and tort law specifically.
I don't think tort law disallows rental equipment to be used by minors.
All of the scooter companies have decided that "kids going to and from school," or more accurately, "parents of school-age kids," is not a market they're interested in. This tells me quite a bit about their business focus that they don't mention in their buzzword-laden web ads.
Bird: "make cities more livable by reducing car usage, traffic, and carbon emissions."
Lime: "enable smart micro mobility around the world."
Skip: "passionately working on last-mile transportation."
Spin: "get you where you need to go - whether you're commuting to work, going to class, running errands on the weekends, or exploring your city."
I do understand that providing any service to minors comes with liability issues. I don't have to be happy that their way of dealing with those issues is putting their devices in the same category as adult bookstores.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:10 PM on April 26, 2019
Your complaint there, if it is indeed genuine, is with the American legal system and tort law specifically.
I don't think tort law disallows rental equipment to be used by minors.
All of the scooter companies have decided that "kids going to and from school," or more accurately, "parents of school-age kids," is not a market they're interested in. This tells me quite a bit about their business focus that they don't mention in their buzzword-laden web ads.
Bird: "make cities more livable by reducing car usage, traffic, and carbon emissions."
Lime: "enable smart micro mobility around the world."
Skip: "passionately working on last-mile transportation."
Spin: "get you where you need to go - whether you're commuting to work, going to class, running errands on the weekends, or exploring your city."
I do understand that providing any service to minors comes with liability issues. I don't have to be happy that their way of dealing with those issues is putting their devices in the same category as adult bookstores.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:10 PM on April 26, 2019
So, do you need a driver's license to ride a Vespa ?
Yes, with a motorcycle endorsement on it. These electric scooters appear to be the skateboard with handlebars variety.
posted by Margalo Epps at 5:27 PM on April 26, 2019
Yes, with a motorcycle endorsement on it. These electric scooters appear to be the skateboard with handlebars variety.
posted by Margalo Epps at 5:27 PM on April 26, 2019
The scooters are all over the footpath because it's a given that cars have first claim on the street space, leaving all other transport modes to fight over the scraps instead of combining against the biggest space wasters.
Personally I favour dedicated "mid-speed" lanes for scooters, bikes, skateboards, monowheels, whatever is faster than a pedestrian but not too fast. And reduce the available car lanes and on-street parking to make it happen.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:25 PM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Personally I favour dedicated "mid-speed" lanes for scooters, bikes, skateboards, monowheels, whatever is faster than a pedestrian but not too fast. And reduce the available car lanes and on-street parking to make it happen.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:25 PM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
And as I pointed out, my street has bike lanes both ways, and scooters ignore them to blast down the sidewalks. I was watching this last weekend, when maybe 2 cars passed per half hour, because my street dead ends into the university and is very quiet during non-school hours. The repeated insistence that it's all the fault of evil cars and innocent scooter riders are forced, nay forced to use the sidewalks is starting to piss me off. They are not forced to go car speeds on the sidewalk. They are not forced to block the sidewalk with abandoned scooters -- I actually checked today, the verge on my street is actually *wider* than the sidewalk itself, but a large number of users cannot be bothered to do anything but drop the scooter in their tracks and walk away.
The only way *that* is going to be fixed is forcing the companies to track where their scooters are left, and enforcing fines on people who drive non-disability motorized vehicles on the sidewalk (and if those are on the sidewalk, they should be moving at pedestrian speeds not vehicular.) I don't doubt there are areas where the issue is lack of facilities,but we already have a medium-speed lane here, people are just being assholes.
posted by tavella at 8:08 PM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
The only way *that* is going to be fixed is forcing the companies to track where their scooters are left, and enforcing fines on people who drive non-disability motorized vehicles on the sidewalk (and if those are on the sidewalk, they should be moving at pedestrian speeds not vehicular.) I don't doubt there are areas where the issue is lack of facilities,but we already have a medium-speed lane here, people are just being assholes.
posted by tavella at 8:08 PM on April 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think bike lanes should be elevated like sidewalk sized Alaskan Way Viaducts. Only more elegantly and gracefully proportioned. An Alpha Ralpha Boulevard for every man, woman, homunculus and underperson: See you at the Abba Dingo.
posted by y2karl at 8:16 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 8:16 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
... so fun. so, so fun. just a total blast to ride. Stupid, dangerous fun. but so fun.
I was at a national conference for city planners in San Francisco about two weeks ago. I stayed in Oakland and rode all over on a Lime scooter and I just loved it. I'm a completely unathletic person in my late fifties who never had a scooter as a kid and it was easy after an initial moment of trepidation. I felt guilty about even sharing the bike lanes, which is allowed, and proved to be by far the best driving experience: smooth and safe. Going over rough roads, e.,g., in industrial areas, was hard on the wrists. I could see using them to get to BART in nice weather when I didn't have time to walk and didn't want to pay for an Uber.
Anyway, I was surprised how few planners had tried them, but in fairness, most of them were staying in SF which is a much scarier place for scooter use. And I didn't see many people my age on them either. So there may be a mismatch between who uses them and who decides whether to approve their use in a given city or invest in the venture.
posted by carmicha at 9:37 PM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
I was at a national conference for city planners in San Francisco about two weeks ago. I stayed in Oakland and rode all over on a Lime scooter and I just loved it. I'm a completely unathletic person in my late fifties who never had a scooter as a kid and it was easy after an initial moment of trepidation. I felt guilty about even sharing the bike lanes, which is allowed, and proved to be by far the best driving experience: smooth and safe. Going over rough roads, e.,g., in industrial areas, was hard on the wrists. I could see using them to get to BART in nice weather when I didn't have time to walk and didn't want to pay for an Uber.
Anyway, I was surprised how few planners had tried them, but in fairness, most of them were staying in SF which is a much scarier place for scooter use. And I didn't see many people my age on them either. So there may be a mismatch between who uses them and who decides whether to approve their use in a given city or invest in the venture.
posted by carmicha at 9:37 PM on April 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Just freshly posted, some accident stats and reports.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:44 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by ominous_paws at 11:44 PM on April 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
Bird: "make cities more livable by reducing car usage, traffic, and carbon emissions."
Lime: "enable smart micro mobility around the world."
Skip: "passionately working on last-mile transportation."
Spin: "get you where you need to go - whether you're commuting to work, going to class, running errands on the weekends, or exploring your city."
Walking: enjoy the benefits of healthy, safe exercise while getting to where you want to go!
posted by mygoditsbob at 7:15 AM on April 27, 2019
Lime: "enable smart micro mobility around the world."
Skip: "passionately working on last-mile transportation."
Spin: "get you where you need to go - whether you're commuting to work, going to class, running errands on the weekends, or exploring your city."
Walking: enjoy the benefits of healthy, safe exercise while getting to where you want to go!
posted by mygoditsbob at 7:15 AM on April 27, 2019
a large number of users cannot be bothered to do anything but drop the scooter in their tracks and walk away.
The app for the Lime scooters I used in Oakland required users to snap a photo of where they'd left their trusty steeds, allegedly to help other riders find them. I assumed this requirement was actually to encourage people to leave them somewhere appropriate and possibly even to enforce rules or punish bad behavior. However, I never once got provided a picture by the app. Maybe the photos were just to help the Lime employees who gather up the scooters for overnight maintenance, charging and re-locating. I suppose the people who are irresponsible about parking their scooters also fail to take the photos requested.
posted by carmicha at 10:37 AM on April 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
The app for the Lime scooters I used in Oakland required users to snap a photo of where they'd left their trusty steeds, allegedly to help other riders find them. I assumed this requirement was actually to encourage people to leave them somewhere appropriate and possibly even to enforce rules or punish bad behavior. However, I never once got provided a picture by the app. Maybe the photos were just to help the Lime employees who gather up the scooters for overnight maintenance, charging and re-locating. I suppose the people who are irresponsible about parking their scooters also fail to take the photos requested.
posted by carmicha at 10:37 AM on April 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
And as I pointed out, my street has bike lanes both ways, and scooters ignore them to blast down the sidewalks.
Last time you mentioned this, I had a question about what kind of bike lanes these are. I'm still curious.
The #RedCupProject post might make it clearer why it's worth distinguishing between bike lanes with physical protection from cars and bike lanes that are just paint.
posted by asperity at 12:20 AM on April 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Last time you mentioned this, I had a question about what kind of bike lanes these are. I'm still curious.
The #RedCupProject post might make it clearer why it's worth distinguishing between bike lanes with physical protection from cars and bike lanes that are just paint.
posted by asperity at 12:20 AM on April 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
I don't think tort law disallows rental equipment to be used by minors.
??
Uh, maybe re-think what's going on here vis-vis injury potential and who may be considered competent to electronically sign an agreement waiving their right to sue.
posted by aramaic at 11:21 AM on April 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
??
Uh, maybe re-think what's going on here vis-vis injury potential and who may be considered competent to electronically sign an agreement waiving their right to sue.
posted by aramaic at 11:21 AM on April 28, 2019 [2 favorites]
Again, there is almost zero traffic on my street except when there is activity at school -- and then it's usually a solid line of slow moving cars, where both scooters and bikes regularly outpace them. It is essentially impossible to speed on the my block because the street ends. Cars have a 10 foot wide lane each way, bikes have a six foot lane each way, more than enough space. And frankly, if they 'don't feel safe' then walk, 'not feeling safe' does not give you the right to endanger pedestrians by driving a motorized vehicle at high speeds in their space.
posted by tavella at 10:03 PM on April 28, 2019
posted by tavella at 10:03 PM on April 28, 2019
And again, none of that explains why scooter users are somehow forced to drop scooters blocking the sidewalk. Or why they were so obnoxious that SJSU banned them entirely from campus after a year of people being run into and scooters abandoned and blocking wheelchairs and other accessibility. SJSU has no roads at all -- it's a single downtown campus 4 blocks by 6.
This isn't all scooter users -- I see people using the lanes properly all the time. There may even have been a small improvement over last year, perhaps other people have taken up my habit of yelling at people "there's a bike lane, use it!" in a quest to embarrass the embarrassable ones into better behavior. But it doesn't take that large a percentage of bad users to be a burden on pedestrians.
posted by tavella at 10:18 PM on April 28, 2019
This isn't all scooter users -- I see people using the lanes properly all the time. There may even have been a small improvement over last year, perhaps other people have taken up my habit of yelling at people "there's a bike lane, use it!" in a quest to embarrass the embarrassable ones into better behavior. But it doesn't take that large a percentage of bad users to be a burden on pedestrians.
posted by tavella at 10:18 PM on April 28, 2019
That answer does cover width, but not physical protection or much of anything else. Is there a curb in between the general traffic lane and the bike lane? Are there cars parked on the street? If so, where? Those are huge factors in what novice riders feel safe doing. (All scooter riders are pretty much by definition novice riders; they haven't been around long enough for anything else.)
Of course it's not appropriate for people to ride scooters or bikes on sidewalks. Aside from the risk and annoyance to people walking, it's usually much less safe for the people biking (every driveway is an uncontrolled intersection). But the thing is that the feeling we have while we're walking and someone scoots past too close and too fast is exactly the feeling we have when we're biking and someone drives a car too close and too fast. Except that the cars are a hell of a lot more likely to maim or kill us, and also more likely to get away with no consequences for doing it.
As for the scooter parking problem, repurpose some car parking spaces for them. Done. Also, get manufacturers to improve the kickstands so the scooters don't fall over in a stiff breeze, or when parked on dirt or grass.
Scooters are still a hell of a lot less likely to be blocking every sidewalk I walk on than cars or other car-related crap, like temporary road signs advising of a lane closure a block ahead and obviously it made more sense to the contractors to put the sign on the sidewalk than to, OMG, inconvenience the almighty driver by forcing a slow down or lane change.
In conclusion, ban cars.
posted by asperity at 12:09 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
Of course it's not appropriate for people to ride scooters or bikes on sidewalks. Aside from the risk and annoyance to people walking, it's usually much less safe for the people biking (every driveway is an uncontrolled intersection). But the thing is that the feeling we have while we're walking and someone scoots past too close and too fast is exactly the feeling we have when we're biking and someone drives a car too close and too fast. Except that the cars are a hell of a lot more likely to maim or kill us, and also more likely to get away with no consequences for doing it.
As for the scooter parking problem, repurpose some car parking spaces for them. Done. Also, get manufacturers to improve the kickstands so the scooters don't fall over in a stiff breeze, or when parked on dirt or grass.
Scooters are still a hell of a lot less likely to be blocking every sidewalk I walk on than cars or other car-related crap, like temporary road signs advising of a lane closure a block ahead and obviously it made more sense to the contractors to put the sign on the sidewalk than to, OMG, inconvenience the almighty driver by forcing a slow down or lane change.
In conclusion, ban cars.
posted by asperity at 12:09 AM on April 29, 2019 [1 favorite]
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posted by tobascodagama at 8:57 AM on April 26, 2019 [4 favorites]