all your indie faves are jam bands now
June 7, 2019 8:57 AM Subscribe
Indie rock spent the past 20 years learning to love the Grateful Dead. Now what? (SL WAPO)
MAKE IT STOP
/returns to sulking, listening to Wire, leaving shows by bands I used to like early because life is almost always too short for a 12 minute song
posted by thivaia at 9:25 AM on June 7, 2019 [18 favorites]
/returns to sulking, listening to Wire, leaving shows by bands I used to like early because life is almost always too short for a 12 minute song
posted by thivaia at 9:25 AM on June 7, 2019 [18 favorites]
OK, but have you heard Built to Spill's 2000 live album? The one with 20-minute versions of Cortez the Killer and Broken Chairs?
posted by skymt at 9:27 AM on June 7, 2019 [11 favorites]
posted by skymt at 9:27 AM on June 7, 2019 [11 favorites]
Now what?
Now I’ve mostly given up indie rock and listen instead to metal, hip-hop, and country because endless tweedly bullshit is still endless tweedly bullshit
But whatever makes you happy, idgaf
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:36 AM on June 7, 2019 [7 favorites]
Now I’ve mostly given up indie rock and listen instead to metal, hip-hop, and country because endless tweedly bullshit is still endless tweedly bullshit
But whatever makes you happy, idgaf
posted by BitterOldPunk at 9:36 AM on June 7, 2019 [7 favorites]
Maybe....jam bands aren't the chocolate-dipped evil that people like to say they are?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on June 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on June 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
I Can tell the difference between insufferably wanky and evil.
Also I can't stand the Black Keys and I blame them for this.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also I can't stand the Black Keys and I blame them for this.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
Not my...jam
posted by salt grass at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by salt grass at 10:00 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
I too am a long time (old) Deadhead. I still love the Dead. Going to see Phil and Friends at the Cap next week and Dead & Company at SPAC the following week.
I read the article and still am not sure what is means or how the Dead fit into it. As far as I understand it, the Dead never wanted a label, they just played the music as they saw fit. If you liked it, great, if not, okay too. I think the effort to put labels on Indie or Jam Band music is a mistake. Just as bands play what they want, I always thought listeners listen to what appeals to them at that moment in time. 90% of what I listen to is the Dead, either on Sirus 23 or my TB hard drive of shows. But, I listen to and love The Four Tops, Johnny Cash, some DMB, Frank Sinatra, The Beach Boys, Tupac and all sorts of bands. Why are people worried about differentiating between Indie Rock and Jam Bands? Either you like the music or you don't. It is art. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I have seen the Grateful Dead enough to have seen some real clunkers of shows. It happens.
Btw, I may have the stat a little off, but 50% of the songs the Dead played were cover songs. Songs that became 'theirs' were not. Morning Dew, I know You Rider, Big River, Me and Bobby McGee, Promised Land, all the Bob Dylan covers, many blues covers, etc.
Sure, my favorite band sucks, but I did not know it was a competition.
posted by AugustWest at 10:02 AM on June 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
I read the article and still am not sure what is means or how the Dead fit into it. As far as I understand it, the Dead never wanted a label, they just played the music as they saw fit. If you liked it, great, if not, okay too. I think the effort to put labels on Indie or Jam Band music is a mistake. Just as bands play what they want, I always thought listeners listen to what appeals to them at that moment in time. 90% of what I listen to is the Dead, either on Sirus 23 or my TB hard drive of shows. But, I listen to and love The Four Tops, Johnny Cash, some DMB, Frank Sinatra, The Beach Boys, Tupac and all sorts of bands. Why are people worried about differentiating between Indie Rock and Jam Bands? Either you like the music or you don't. It is art. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I have seen the Grateful Dead enough to have seen some real clunkers of shows. It happens.
Btw, I may have the stat a little off, but 50% of the songs the Dead played were cover songs. Songs that became 'theirs' were not. Morning Dew, I know You Rider, Big River, Me and Bobby McGee, Promised Land, all the Bob Dylan covers, many blues covers, etc.
Sure, my favorite band sucks, but I did not know it was a competition.
posted by AugustWest at 10:02 AM on June 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
I will always nurture an abiding love of the Grateful Dead, but I deeply regret the time I spent in the 90s and early 2000s listening to jam bands. It was a poor musical investment.
I do think it's important to make the distinction between "jam bands" and bands that like to cut loose and improvise when they play live. For me, "jam band" will always refer to a certain kind of music that was deeply, deeply bad, with bands that lacked any semblance of songwriting skill or even the compositional skill necessary to craft a compelling instrumental.
Having said that, I still have the Dead on active rotation, and probably always will. I've long been super-annoyed by people who write off the Dead just because they didn't like "hippies." In fact, I used to make it a practice to play the Dead for people and wait for them to say, "Hey this is really good, who is this?" so I could tell them it was the Dead and watch them freak the fuck out. Heh heh heh.
But yeah, I do think one of the reasons people slag on the Dead is because they get thrown in with a lot of lesser bands, and get called a "jam band," when in fact the Dead was leagues better than all those other bands, and in fact probably shouldn't even be put in the same category. It's like calling Pink Floyd or King Crimson "prog rock."
posted by panama joe at 10:30 AM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
I do think it's important to make the distinction between "jam bands" and bands that like to cut loose and improvise when they play live. For me, "jam band" will always refer to a certain kind of music that was deeply, deeply bad, with bands that lacked any semblance of songwriting skill or even the compositional skill necessary to craft a compelling instrumental.
Having said that, I still have the Dead on active rotation, and probably always will. I've long been super-annoyed by people who write off the Dead just because they didn't like "hippies." In fact, I used to make it a practice to play the Dead for people and wait for them to say, "Hey this is really good, who is this?" so I could tell them it was the Dead and watch them freak the fuck out. Heh heh heh.
But yeah, I do think one of the reasons people slag on the Dead is because they get thrown in with a lot of lesser bands, and get called a "jam band," when in fact the Dead was leagues better than all those other bands, and in fact probably shouldn't even be put in the same category. It's like calling Pink Floyd or King Crimson "prog rock."
posted by panama joe at 10:30 AM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
life is almost always too short for a 12 minute song
But… Marquee Moon? Or the entirety of Lift Your Skinny Fists…? It’s not the length of jam that bothers me, it’s the overly relaxed structure and tone. Maybe that’s why Days or Merriwether Post Pavilion don’t feel overly jammy.
posted by a halcyon day at 10:45 AM on June 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
But… Marquee Moon? Or the entirety of Lift Your Skinny Fists…? It’s not the length of jam that bothers me, it’s the overly relaxed structure and tone. Maybe that’s why Days or Merriwether Post Pavilion don’t feel overly jammy.
posted by a halcyon day at 10:45 AM on June 7, 2019 [5 favorites]
terrapin
AugustWest
Trying to play The Grateful Dead, and trying to sound like them in concert and not on vinyl, taught me how to play piano and how to improvise. Will always have a place for them in my heart and in my piano song rotation. I still miss Jerry. But nowadays I am more looking for electronic jam bands, EDM, dubstep, etc. What the kids today listen to, who would have gone to Dead shows 30 years ago. The wheel keeps turning and it won't slow down.
posted by M-x shell at 10:52 AM on June 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
AugustWest
Trying to play The Grateful Dead, and trying to sound like them in concert and not on vinyl, taught me how to play piano and how to improvise. Will always have a place for them in my heart and in my piano song rotation. I still miss Jerry. But nowadays I am more looking for electronic jam bands, EDM, dubstep, etc. What the kids today listen to, who would have gone to Dead shows 30 years ago. The wheel keeps turning and it won't slow down.
posted by M-x shell at 10:52 AM on June 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
The guy who wrote this didn't live through the same 90's and early 2k's that I did. The Dead were an americana band with heavy psychedelic blues and bluegrass roots. They did their own thing and their fanbase grew organically from what they did. When Jerry died there was a void, and because Phish played long shows with songs that blended into one another, and Dead fans, used to touring with a band all summer had nowhere else to go so they went to Phish shows, people started considering them to be heirs to the Dead.
This all coincides with the resurgence of festivals, which draw large crowds that every band benefits from, and a scene that rewards bands that play long (tweedly) songs late at night so the trippers have something to do.
Okay, so now bands lacking any serious chops, like the String cheese Incident and Leftover Salmon come along and play kinda folksy, kinda rock music, and they intersect with DMB fans who like their pop in 12 minute doses and suddenly "jam bands" exist and headline these festivals. and yeah, that's a lowpoint.
In the meantime hardworking outfits like the Greyboy Allstars, medeski martin and wood, Stanton Moore and Charlie Hunter are killing it in small venues, mixing and matching members and exploring the space... and cringing because they are also being called jambands. The heirs to that scene are much more interesting (to some) than the "heirs" to the dead or phish and so forth.
Listen to what you like, your favorite band sucks anyway, but only complain if you're being forced to listen to a 12 minute song by musicians who don't know their craft, there's lots of great music still being made and played if you seek it out.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:53 AM on June 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
This all coincides with the resurgence of festivals, which draw large crowds that every band benefits from, and a scene that rewards bands that play long (tweedly) songs late at night so the trippers have something to do.
Okay, so now bands lacking any serious chops, like the String cheese Incident and Leftover Salmon come along and play kinda folksy, kinda rock music, and they intersect with DMB fans who like their pop in 12 minute doses and suddenly "jam bands" exist and headline these festivals. and yeah, that's a lowpoint.
In the meantime hardworking outfits like the Greyboy Allstars, medeski martin and wood, Stanton Moore and Charlie Hunter are killing it in small venues, mixing and matching members and exploring the space... and cringing because they are also being called jambands. The heirs to that scene are much more interesting (to some) than the "heirs" to the dead or phish and so forth.
Listen to what you like, your favorite band sucks anyway, but only complain if you're being forced to listen to a 12 minute song by musicians who don't know their craft, there's lots of great music still being made and played if you seek it out.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:53 AM on June 7, 2019 [8 favorites]
.... cringing because they are also being called jambands
John Scofield didn't seem to mind getting an audience from their fanbase
posted by thelonius at 10:59 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
John Scofield didn't seem to mind getting an audience from their fanbase
posted by thelonius at 10:59 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
medeski martin and wood
Damn I miss MMW and all of John Medeski's various side projects. He used to gig a lot around NYC, especially back when Tonic was a thing. Used to love going to his shows, because like half the crowd were jam band folks and the other half were like "serious" jazz people. And the jam band crowd would get up and dance during their funkier numbers, and then just kinda walk around confused when they'd do one of their more dissonant John Zorn-y numbers.
What's Medeski up to these days? I wonder if MMW will ever tour again.
posted by panama joe at 11:05 AM on June 7, 2019
Damn I miss MMW and all of John Medeski's various side projects. He used to gig a lot around NYC, especially back when Tonic was a thing. Used to love going to his shows, because like half the crowd were jam band folks and the other half were like "serious" jazz people. And the jam band crowd would get up and dance during their funkier numbers, and then just kinda walk around confused when they'd do one of their more dissonant John Zorn-y numbers.
What's Medeski up to these days? I wonder if MMW will ever tour again.
posted by panama joe at 11:05 AM on June 7, 2019
I toured a lot with Phish in the late 90s, and the only other band in that orbit that I at all enjoyed was MMW (would absolutely go on MMW tour A+). I fell asleep at a Moe show that I got dragged to once, I have a giant grudge against the Disco Biscuits because a bunch of my touring buddies got into them, then got into mollie and then turned into giant assholes, all the other jam bands just bore the piss out of me. "Plays long songs live with some improv of wildly varying quality" is not a meaningful genre classification.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:12 AM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:12 AM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
But… Marquee Moon? Or the entirety of Lift Your Skinny Fists…?
I have friends who like this sort of thing, but, it ain't for me.
You kids have fun, and watch crossing the street.
I'll be on my lawn yelling and listening to Xray Spex.
posted by evilDoug at 11:25 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
I have friends who like this sort of thing, but, it ain't for me.
You kids have fun, and watch crossing the street.
I'll be on my lawn yelling and listening to Xray Spex.
posted by evilDoug at 11:25 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
A lot of the bands I like get called "jam bands" and that doesn't really affect my liking them a bit. I play guitar and I've been studying improvisation for years so I have an appreciation for a good solo, regardless of length. We have so much choice in music these days it seems a waste to spend time hating something when you can listen to something you don't hate.
posted by tommasz at 11:28 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 11:28 AM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
OK, but have you heard Built to Spill's 2000 live album? The one with 20-minute versions of Cortez the Killer and Broken Chairs?
Yeah, anyone who ever heard Doug Martsch play live would never refer to Built to Spill as a jam band.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:31 AM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah, anyone who ever heard Doug Martsch play live would never refer to Built to Spill as a jam band.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:31 AM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
> The Dead were an americana band with heavy psychedelic blues and bluegrass roots.
On my mental map of music, they were foremost a rock band, though Jerry Garcia and Phil Lesh were essential to the band's uniqueness for starting from bluegrass and jazz, respectively. If you've ever been to a bluegrass fest -- and you should, even if you're a total cultural outsider, because they're a blast -- you'll quickly learn that long improvised jams have always been a part of that music. The pedigree makes it kind of obvious in hindsight that of course it's a band that would spend a long time in the air during numbers.
Phish, in contrast to the Dead, strikes me as starting from a foundation in songwriter-based rock and roll rather than rock's antecedents. This doesn't make them better nor worse than the Dead but it means they're going to have different approaches, or at least different working methods. When I listen to live tapes of these bands it seems to me that the Dead are frequently drifting into and out of improvisatory breaks (whether or not they're planned or rehearsed that way), while Phish tends to have a much more structured breakdown of where the verses, choruses and breaks are.
posted by ardgedee at 11:41 AM on June 7, 2019
On my mental map of music, they were foremost a rock band, though Jerry Garcia and Phil Lesh were essential to the band's uniqueness for starting from bluegrass and jazz, respectively. If you've ever been to a bluegrass fest -- and you should, even if you're a total cultural outsider, because they're a blast -- you'll quickly learn that long improvised jams have always been a part of that music. The pedigree makes it kind of obvious in hindsight that of course it's a band that would spend a long time in the air during numbers.
Phish, in contrast to the Dead, strikes me as starting from a foundation in songwriter-based rock and roll rather than rock's antecedents. This doesn't make them better nor worse than the Dead but it means they're going to have different approaches, or at least different working methods. When I listen to live tapes of these bands it seems to me that the Dead are frequently drifting into and out of improvisatory breaks (whether or not they're planned or rehearsed that way), while Phish tends to have a much more structured breakdown of where the verses, choruses and breaks are.
posted by ardgedee at 11:41 AM on June 7, 2019
The Dead and Phish are such different bands, I don't think any meaningful comparison can be made between the two. They weren't even trying to do the same thing.
posted by panama joe at 12:10 PM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by panama joe at 12:10 PM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
thivaia: Fortunately, there's plenty of post-punk revivalist bands that take their cues from groups like Wire. I'm particularly fond of the Brooklyn-based band Bootblacks.
posted by SansPoint at 12:13 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 12:13 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
I mean I think it's important to keep in mind that when the Dead were extant, they weren't a jam band because jam bands hadn't been invented yet. Bill Graham used to introduce them by saying, "They're not the best at what they do, they're the only ones who do what they do" which I think was salient. The Dead and Phish did coexist for a while, and Phish did start out with a number of Dead covers in their set, but I think they chucked them pretty early on specifically to avoid those types of comparisons.
And you can't really go to one band expecting what you'd get from another. The Dead's influences were more bluegrass, blues, rock, folk and country, where Phish's were more jazz and rock with a strong dose of Zappa. Personally I haven't listened to Phish since college, but I don't think Phish is a bad band or anything. They just come from a different songwriting and performing tradition than the Dead.
posted by panama joe at 12:18 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
And you can't really go to one band expecting what you'd get from another. The Dead's influences were more bluegrass, blues, rock, folk and country, where Phish's were more jazz and rock with a strong dose of Zappa. Personally I haven't listened to Phish since college, but I don't think Phish is a bad band or anything. They just come from a different songwriting and performing tradition than the Dead.
posted by panama joe at 12:18 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
A thing about the HORDE scene that I celebrate: Widespread Panic used their influence to force promoters to put Col. Bruce Hampton and The Aquarium Rescue Unit on the bill. So the Colonel finally got a decent payday.
posted by thelonius at 12:40 PM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 12:40 PM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
thivaia: Fortunately, there's plenty of post-punk revivalist bands that take their cues from groups like Wire. I'm particularly fond of the Brooklyn-based band Bootblacks.
That's a great song. Added to playlist!
posted by thivaia at 1:29 PM on June 7, 2019
That's a great song. Added to playlist!
posted by thivaia at 1:29 PM on June 7, 2019
I think the drugs have something to do with it as well...
posted by albion moonlight at 2:01 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by albion moonlight at 2:01 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
Is the jam band scene absorbing Ween and Primus as well? Seeing those bands at festivals in recent years, I noticed they stretched out a bit more and their audience had a bit of a jam band audience vibe,which surprised me.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:06 PM on June 7, 2019
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:06 PM on June 7, 2019
I'm not remotely surprised to hear that about Ween and Primus. Ween especially – they were well known for playing long improvisational versions of their songs live, and their fanbase was equally well known for huffing nitrous and trading tapes of live shows. Totally a jam band scene, minus any Deadesque idealism.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:16 PM on June 7, 2019
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:16 PM on June 7, 2019
Oh, wait – Ween reunited? Huh.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:17 PM on June 7, 2019
posted by escape from the potato planet at 2:17 PM on June 7, 2019
I apply the same criteria to music that I do to movies: immersion.
If I'm in the middle of a movie and I become self-aware that I'm watching a movie (start thinking about unpaid bills, or how that actor in background isn't really having a conversation) it's pretty much game over for me.
Same thing with music: I like a lot of Grateful Dead jams, when they're good, they're transformative maybe even transcendent, when they're bad- they're really bad and I find myself wanting to skip to next.
This is why the genre of "jam band" just seems weird to me: it's a pretty high bar to come out and say, yeah trust us, this 10 minute song is totally going to be worth your time. You'll love it, it's a way of life!
posted by jeremias at 2:25 PM on June 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
If I'm in the middle of a movie and I become self-aware that I'm watching a movie (start thinking about unpaid bills, or how that actor in background isn't really having a conversation) it's pretty much game over for me.
Same thing with music: I like a lot of Grateful Dead jams, when they're good, they're transformative maybe even transcendent, when they're bad- they're really bad and I find myself wanting to skip to next.
This is why the genre of "jam band" just seems weird to me: it's a pretty high bar to come out and say, yeah trust us, this 10 minute song is totally going to be worth your time. You'll love it, it's a way of life!
posted by jeremias at 2:25 PM on June 7, 2019 [4 favorites]
oh, you kids - do you think the grateful dead were the only 60s band that jammed out? quite a few bands did it back then although some limited it - but after the 75 hiatus, the dead limited it a bit too
even local bands did it as late as the mid 70s, although they tended to be bands that didn't get to play the bars much
the one thing that the grateful dead have always had above the other jam bands was the songs
posted by pyramid termite at 3:16 PM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
even local bands did it as late as the mid 70s, although they tended to be bands that didn't get to play the bars much
the one thing that the grateful dead have always had above the other jam bands was the songs
posted by pyramid termite at 3:16 PM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
cues from groups like Wire
Wire had its punk jam band moments, as excessive song length is relative to the genre. I mean, they repeated 'How many?' like 25 times in Pink Flag and it starts out slow. I think they could have cut back to a svelte 15 times and gotten it in under 3 minutes.
Also hot take: the solo in Marquee Moon starting around 4:30 could be cut back like the solo on Light My Fire and it'd be a better song.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:16 PM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
Wire had its punk jam band moments, as excessive song length is relative to the genre. I mean, they repeated 'How many?' like 25 times in Pink Flag and it starts out slow. I think they could have cut back to a svelte 15 times and gotten it in under 3 minutes.
Also hot take: the solo in Marquee Moon starting around 4:30 could be cut back like the solo on Light My Fire and it'd be a better song.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:16 PM on June 7, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am in the midst of a Dead appreciation phase. Quicksilver did a half album version of Who Do You Love, that still plays well with me. I had to search around for the quintessential Darkstar jam, but gladly, I found it. I don't go out much except to hear my son in law's band play, even that is rare. I thought I was too old to fall in love again but that Darkstar version did the trick. here
posted by Oyéah at 3:44 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 3:44 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
Also hot take: the solo in Marquee Moon starting around 4:30 could be cut back like the solo on Light My Fire and it'd be a better song.
As someone who considers Marquee Moon to be possibly the greatest album of all-time I just about had an aneurysm. That's the mark of a truly scorching hot take.
posted by dreamlanding at 3:50 PM on June 7, 2019 [9 favorites]
As someone who considers Marquee Moon to be possibly the greatest album of all-time I just about had an aneurysm. That's the mark of a truly scorching hot take.
posted by dreamlanding at 3:50 PM on June 7, 2019 [9 favorites]
I like a lot of Grateful Dead jams, when they're good, they're transformative maybe even transcendent, when they're bad- they're really bad
Right, that was the deal. I saw them like 4 times - one was outstanding, two were really good, and one was pretty dismal (on their last tour).
posted by thelonius at 4:15 PM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
Right, that was the deal. I saw them like 4 times - one was outstanding, two were really good, and one was pretty dismal (on their last tour).
posted by thelonius at 4:15 PM on June 7, 2019 [1 favorite]
I really didn't get the Grateful Dead or Phish from Vampire Weekend's Father of the Bride--I felt like they were bringing in a Laurel Canyon vibe, which is related, but not the same.
Anyway, the band I love doesn't have the technical skills to be a jam band even after more than 20 years of touring.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:48 PM on June 7, 2019
Anyway, the band I love doesn't have the technical skills to be a jam band even after more than 20 years of touring.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:48 PM on June 7, 2019
years ago, I read a Sonic Youth interview where Thurston Moore made it very clear to the interviewer that they were NOT a jam band. What they were doing when they strayed from the form of an existing song or just went sonically exploring was improvising. I can't remember exactly what his logic was, but the distinction stuck with me.
I suppose that improvisation means you're looking for something -- you're not just mucking around for the fun of it, you're after something that you probably couldn't find any other way, an accident of chords, harmonics, melody, rhythm, whatever that somehow leads to a higher, more potent form. Whereas jamming is more along the lines of falling into a groove and enjoying the ride, no grand ambition, no reward beyond the experience itself. And the thing is, I love both, depending on my mood, the situation, etc.
And a band like the Grateful Dead -- well, I'd say they do both. Or certainly, Dark Star and it's very many versions and excursions -- that's improvisation, that's wrestling with genuinely primal stuff, a resolutely existential piece. But most of their other live expansions that I've heard -- those feel more like jamming. For the good times.
I do love a "song" that doesn't know exactly where it's going.
posted by philip-random at 6:19 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
I suppose that improvisation means you're looking for something -- you're not just mucking around for the fun of it, you're after something that you probably couldn't find any other way, an accident of chords, harmonics, melody, rhythm, whatever that somehow leads to a higher, more potent form. Whereas jamming is more along the lines of falling into a groove and enjoying the ride, no grand ambition, no reward beyond the experience itself. And the thing is, I love both, depending on my mood, the situation, etc.
And a band like the Grateful Dead -- well, I'd say they do both. Or certainly, Dark Star and it's very many versions and excursions -- that's improvisation, that's wrestling with genuinely primal stuff, a resolutely existential piece. But most of their other live expansions that I've heard -- those feel more like jamming. For the good times.
I do love a "song" that doesn't know exactly where it's going.
posted by philip-random at 6:19 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
> listening to Wire, leaving shows by bands I used to like early because life is almost always too short for a 12 minute song
Wire's Kidney Bingos EP has a live version of "Drill" that's over 8 minutes long. Their Peel Sessions include a version of "Crazy About Love" that's over 15 minutes long.
posted by ardgedee at 6:59 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
Wire's Kidney Bingos EP has a live version of "Drill" that's over 8 minutes long. Their Peel Sessions include a version of "Crazy About Love" that's over 15 minutes long.
posted by ardgedee at 6:59 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
Two words for y'all:
Butthole.
Surfers.
posted by not_on_display at 8:38 PM on June 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
Butthole.
Surfers.
posted by not_on_display at 8:38 PM on June 7, 2019 [6 favorites]
Ugh, I was at the Eaux Claires Festival the year The National et al did all the Deac covers and personally I hated it. Let the millennial a embrace that crap, to this bitter old Gen Xer it’s still horrible. That being said, the midnight show of Cornelius doing 1997’s Fantasma in its entirety with accompanying video show was amazing. I saw it in ‘97 and in ‘17 and I am blessed. Now get off my lawn you hippies.
posted by misterpatrick at 11:20 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 11:20 PM on June 7, 2019 [2 favorites]
Haven't Sonic Youth and Pavement members both copped to loving the Grateful Dead? Fake news.
posted by es_de_bah at 11:26 PM on June 7, 2019
posted by es_de_bah at 11:26 PM on June 7, 2019
Lee Renaldo of Sonic Youth was definitely a Grateful Dead fan
posted by philip-random at 12:56 AM on June 8, 2019
posted by philip-random at 12:56 AM on June 8, 2019
Yeah, anyone who ever heard Doug Martsch play live would never refer to Built to Spill as a jam band.
Funny, but I think of live BTS as almost exclusively a jam band, but maybe my tolerance for it (the jam, not BTS) is a little short.
I was just discussing this very thing with my 18 year old last week, after he saw JRAD put on "the show of the year" -- specifically why I can love long jazz epics, dig indie music, but can't stomach the jam band. Is this a gift or an illness, I don't know.
posted by klausman at 6:34 AM on June 8, 2019
Funny, but I think of live BTS as almost exclusively a jam band, but maybe my tolerance for it (the jam, not BTS) is a little short.
I was just discussing this very thing with my 18 year old last week, after he saw JRAD put on "the show of the year" -- specifically why I can love long jazz epics, dig indie music, but can't stomach the jam band. Is this a gift or an illness, I don't know.
posted by klausman at 6:34 AM on June 8, 2019
Now get off my lawn you hippies.
My tastes have widely expanded over the course of my life, and I've become more tolerant. But still...I'm at "OK, you hippies can stay on my lawn, but turn it down and don't block the driveway." and then go inside and lock the door.
I don't really understand the distinctions people make in genres sometimes, but everyone sees things differently. The Doors were always a hippy jam band as far as I'm concerned. I had no idea My Morning Jacket was not considered a hippy jam band, or did I read that wrong? But "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" was always always one of my favorite Stones songs, and for the first half of my life I turned it off when the jam started, and literally never heard the whole thing. Nowadays I mostly listen to instrumental music, but not much Rock (as several friends say "I've heard it") and wheedling aint it. Someone I know says "Why would I want to listen to a band practice? Let me know when you get it worked out"
Is it really surprising that Millennial music is Boomer music?
I don't know what Indie means as a music genre. It seems to keep changing over the years. It sometimes seems to me like the "My SUV is not a mini van" of music.
Are we witnessing rock-and-roll’s last great quest for something new to say?
By copying a sound that people thought was the end of the line 50 years ago? At least 25 years late on that one chief. Nearly 30 years ago I worked with an old hippy guy that we used to tease because he literally didn't listen to any music made after 1972, he thought it was crap. He was wrong, but he did almost have a point. Glam, Punk, and many other forms were a lot of rehashing and looking back, even if they freshened things up, but Metal and other genres seemed to me to be bringing something new. 1989 seemed like such an exciting year in music with Dance music and Hip Hop and everything else blending with rock and it was hard to imagine things stagnating. But I had a discussion a few years ago with a guy and I said I thought Nirvana was the last big Rock band (although I wasn't a huge fan). I expected him to mock that, but he said him another friend had had a similar discussion and decided Rage Against the Machine was. I conceded his point as RATM was more original, and Nirvana was rehashing for the third time, but it was funny that we had the same time period. ("KLF - Chaos, Magic, Music, Money" has similar thoughts about the time period, so it's hard to deny it might just be men of a certain age.)
The problem when I say this is people think I'm saying there are no good Rock bands now, or since. I'm not. Many mid level bands today or from the last couple of decades are much better than the huge bands of the past they emulate. Better in every way, except originality. I often say it's like being the best Dixieland Jazz, or just Jazz band in the world. You may be, but it's not the same thing it was in the 50's or 60's. People have been saying Rock is dead for decades, and I used to laugh at that, but really didn't expect such a slow petering out.
posted by bongo_x at 5:54 PM on June 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
My tastes have widely expanded over the course of my life, and I've become more tolerant. But still...I'm at "OK, you hippies can stay on my lawn, but turn it down and don't block the driveway." and then go inside and lock the door.
I don't really understand the distinctions people make in genres sometimes, but everyone sees things differently. The Doors were always a hippy jam band as far as I'm concerned. I had no idea My Morning Jacket was not considered a hippy jam band, or did I read that wrong? But "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" was always always one of my favorite Stones songs, and for the first half of my life I turned it off when the jam started, and literally never heard the whole thing. Nowadays I mostly listen to instrumental music, but not much Rock (as several friends say "I've heard it") and wheedling aint it. Someone I know says "Why would I want to listen to a band practice? Let me know when you get it worked out"
Is it really surprising that Millennial music is Boomer music?
I don't know what Indie means as a music genre. It seems to keep changing over the years. It sometimes seems to me like the "My SUV is not a mini van" of music.
Are we witnessing rock-and-roll’s last great quest for something new to say?
By copying a sound that people thought was the end of the line 50 years ago? At least 25 years late on that one chief. Nearly 30 years ago I worked with an old hippy guy that we used to tease because he literally didn't listen to any music made after 1972, he thought it was crap. He was wrong, but he did almost have a point. Glam, Punk, and many other forms were a lot of rehashing and looking back, even if they freshened things up, but Metal and other genres seemed to me to be bringing something new. 1989 seemed like such an exciting year in music with Dance music and Hip Hop and everything else blending with rock and it was hard to imagine things stagnating. But I had a discussion a few years ago with a guy and I said I thought Nirvana was the last big Rock band (although I wasn't a huge fan). I expected him to mock that, but he said him another friend had had a similar discussion and decided Rage Against the Machine was. I conceded his point as RATM was more original, and Nirvana was rehashing for the third time, but it was funny that we had the same time period. ("KLF - Chaos, Magic, Music, Money" has similar thoughts about the time period, so it's hard to deny it might just be men of a certain age.)
The problem when I say this is people think I'm saying there are no good Rock bands now, or since. I'm not. Many mid level bands today or from the last couple of decades are much better than the huge bands of the past they emulate. Better in every way, except originality. I often say it's like being the best Dixieland Jazz, or just Jazz band in the world. You may be, but it's not the same thing it was in the 50's or 60's. People have been saying Rock is dead for decades, and I used to laugh at that, but really didn't expect such a slow petering out.
posted by bongo_x at 5:54 PM on June 8, 2019 [2 favorites]
RATM was more original
Well, it was basically Gil Scott-Heron crossed with Faith No More as far as I'm concerned, but you do you
posted by thelonius at 6:02 PM on June 8, 2019 [3 favorites]
Well, it was basically Gil Scott-Heron crossed with Faith No More as far as I'm concerned, but you do you
posted by thelonius at 6:02 PM on June 8, 2019 [3 favorites]
it was basically Gil Scott-Heron crossed with Faith No More as far as I'm concerned
Kiss me now you beautiful bastard.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:50 PM on June 8, 2019 [3 favorites]
Kiss me now you beautiful bastard.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:50 PM on June 8, 2019 [3 favorites]
Black Flag's Greg Ginn was a huge Deadhead. Do with that what you will...
posted by AJaffe at 9:23 AM on June 9, 2019
posted by AJaffe at 9:23 AM on June 9, 2019
Nearly 30 years ago I worked with an old hippy guy that we used to tease because he literally didn't listen to any music made after 1972, he thought it was crap. He was wrong, but he did almost have a point. Glam, Punk, and many other forms were a lot of rehashing and looking back, even if they freshened things up,
I do think it's somewhat of an age thing as I was thirteen in 1972 and glam etc seemed entirely revolutionary to me. And then a year later, American Graffiti hit and suddenly old school rock n roll was all the rage, Which I Hated (but that's a whole other sidetrack).
The first band who were big with the younger crowd that I remember writing off as entirely derivative was The Cult when they suddenly "hardened" their sound with Electric (1987) and started sounding like a Led Zeppelin cover band. I didn't hate what they were doing, but I had heard it all before. And done better. But as the 80s ran down and the 90s brought us grunge etc -- well there was way more of such stuff, bands who had obviously grown up with as much old Aerosmith and Black Sabbath in their collections as anything remotely current.
I remember a moment in around 1995, hanging out in a recording studio, getting called out by a young musician for my boring/predictable tendency to take every current band and immediately point out which older sounds they were emulating and/or ripping off. "So f***ing what," he said, "That's what rock n roll is, what it's always been. Taking what you love and trying to make it your own. And the people going to my gigs aren't in their thirties, so what do they care what happened twenty years ago? As long as it sounds cool to them now."
Which did drive home a point that I've been happy to accept ever since. Whatever rock-rap-pop-dance-disco-industrial-etc sounds are currently lighting a fire in younger folks -- that's their business, their call. It doesn't mean I still don't have my opinions and (I hope) a well-honed sense of what is actually fresh (at least to my weathered ears), I'm just in way less of a hurry to push those opinions, particularly if they run contrary to what people are loving. Because it's not as if any of this a science. Hell, so-called rock music is still barely a recognized art form in a lot of quarters. I'm just glad younger generations keep on messing with it, making noise, some of it superlative.
posted by philip-random at 10:07 AM on June 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
I do think it's somewhat of an age thing as I was thirteen in 1972 and glam etc seemed entirely revolutionary to me. And then a year later, American Graffiti hit and suddenly old school rock n roll was all the rage, Which I Hated (but that's a whole other sidetrack).
The first band who were big with the younger crowd that I remember writing off as entirely derivative was The Cult when they suddenly "hardened" their sound with Electric (1987) and started sounding like a Led Zeppelin cover band. I didn't hate what they were doing, but I had heard it all before. And done better. But as the 80s ran down and the 90s brought us grunge etc -- well there was way more of such stuff, bands who had obviously grown up with as much old Aerosmith and Black Sabbath in their collections as anything remotely current.
I remember a moment in around 1995, hanging out in a recording studio, getting called out by a young musician for my boring/predictable tendency to take every current band and immediately point out which older sounds they were emulating and/or ripping off. "So f***ing what," he said, "That's what rock n roll is, what it's always been. Taking what you love and trying to make it your own. And the people going to my gigs aren't in their thirties, so what do they care what happened twenty years ago? As long as it sounds cool to them now."
Which did drive home a point that I've been happy to accept ever since. Whatever rock-rap-pop-dance-disco-industrial-etc sounds are currently lighting a fire in younger folks -- that's their business, their call. It doesn't mean I still don't have my opinions and (I hope) a well-honed sense of what is actually fresh (at least to my weathered ears), I'm just in way less of a hurry to push those opinions, particularly if they run contrary to what people are loving. Because it's not as if any of this a science. Hell, so-called rock music is still barely a recognized art form in a lot of quarters. I'm just glad younger generations keep on messing with it, making noise, some of it superlative.
posted by philip-random at 10:07 AM on June 9, 2019 [2 favorites]
My casual use of words like "rehashed" reads a lot more negative than I intended. I don't actually mean anything negative by it. Revived? Freshash?
Which did drive home a point that I've been happy to accept ever since. Whatever rock-rap-pop-dance-disco-industrial-etc sounds are currently lighting a fire in younger folks -- that's their business, their call. It doesn't mean I still don't have my opinions and (I hope) a well-honed sense of what is actually fresh (at least to my weathered ears), I'm just in way less of a hurry to push those opinions,
Oh yeah, I'm not going to get into it unless there's a music history discussion going on.
In my experience, I don't see a lot of young people fired up about new music. Even ones that work in music. They seem to be more interested in movies and TV shows. Their responses about music are pretty much what I would have said if you asked about my favorite TV shows in the 70's & 80's.
The first band who were big with the younger crowd that I remember writing off as entirely derivative was The Cult when they suddenly "hardened" their sound with Electric (1987) and started sounding like a Led Zeppelin cover band. I didn't hate what they were doing, but I had heard it all before.
That's interesting, I had the exact same experience except I did sort of hate what they were doing. I remember sitting around with friends laughing out loud at it, and we were fans of the earlier stuff. 10 years later I loved it, and still like it, but by the late 90's I'd gotten used to the idea that that's what Rock bands were going to do now, revival.
I also think it funny you say Led Zeppelin, everyone I know said that, and in later years I listen and think where did we get Led Zeppelin from? I don't hear it now, some AC/DC, definitely Classic Rock revival. But there were other bands totally ripping Led Zeppelin at the time so maybe just it was in the air.
posted by bongo_x at 1:06 PM on June 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
Which did drive home a point that I've been happy to accept ever since. Whatever rock-rap-pop-dance-disco-industrial-etc sounds are currently lighting a fire in younger folks -- that's their business, their call. It doesn't mean I still don't have my opinions and (I hope) a well-honed sense of what is actually fresh (at least to my weathered ears), I'm just in way less of a hurry to push those opinions,
Oh yeah, I'm not going to get into it unless there's a music history discussion going on.
In my experience, I don't see a lot of young people fired up about new music. Even ones that work in music. They seem to be more interested in movies and TV shows. Their responses about music are pretty much what I would have said if you asked about my favorite TV shows in the 70's & 80's.
The first band who were big with the younger crowd that I remember writing off as entirely derivative was The Cult when they suddenly "hardened" their sound with Electric (1987) and started sounding like a Led Zeppelin cover band. I didn't hate what they were doing, but I had heard it all before.
That's interesting, I had the exact same experience except I did sort of hate what they were doing. I remember sitting around with friends laughing out loud at it, and we were fans of the earlier stuff. 10 years later I loved it, and still like it, but by the late 90's I'd gotten used to the idea that that's what Rock bands were going to do now, revival.
I also think it funny you say Led Zeppelin, everyone I know said that, and in later years I listen and think where did we get Led Zeppelin from? I don't hear it now, some AC/DC, definitely Classic Rock revival. But there were other bands totally ripping Led Zeppelin at the time so maybe just it was in the air.
posted by bongo_x at 1:06 PM on June 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
the Led Zep thing probably came from whatizizname singing, "baby-baby-baby" (was it in Love Removal Machine?) just like Robert Plant in Misty Mountain Hop.
posted by philip-random at 1:12 PM on June 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 1:12 PM on June 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
Improvisation had been in the dog house so long the indie rockers forgot why they were supposed to hate it. Actually, a lot of them were just pretending to hate it, and now that nobody cares about punk roots or the DIY ethos or "authenticity", they're jamming out because it's fun (and maybe to give the audience an experience they can't already stream on Spotify).
Meanwhile, neo-soul sounds like indie rock! Or at least like Radiohead or 90's Cure, but with golden-throated r n' b vocals on top. Music will survive and reproduce; maybe its the dogmas that will go extinct?
posted by ducky l'orange at 8:49 PM on June 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
Meanwhile, neo-soul sounds like indie rock! Or at least like Radiohead or 90's Cure, but with golden-throated r n' b vocals on top. Music will survive and reproduce; maybe its the dogmas that will go extinct?
posted by ducky l'orange at 8:49 PM on June 9, 2019 [4 favorites]
this is what you get when you don't aggressively filter out the dudes
posted by lescour at 1:40 AM on June 10, 2019
posted by lescour at 1:40 AM on June 10, 2019
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
1) The only Bonnaroo I attended was 2003... and I am still recovering. My Morning Jacket had a great event, but for me Flaming Lips at 1am in a cool mist after a long-ass day of heat was the highlight.
2) "With so much bootlegged material floating around in the universe, it’s amazing that the Grateful Dead still felt so protective of its output."
The Grateful Dead has stated they don't care what ANYONE does with their music as long as they don't profit from it. Record all the shows you want, and share them with as many people as you like. But don't repackage it and sell it. Simple.
So Animal Collective asked and received permission because they planned to release a song and make money (hopefully) from it. Simple.
3) I spent the 80s at university (6 years at least of uni) and on tour with the Dead. I still love what they did and still do, but my tastes have moved more to so-called Indie music over the last couple of decades, and most of the bands I listen to I still learned about from Relix. Relix does a great job introducing newer bands to we old heads, especially with a CD (haha) included in each edition for over a decade now. I only subscribe to 2 magazines. Relix and Brew Your Own.
4) Your favorite band/music/genre sucks. So does mine.
posted by terrapin at 9:23 AM on June 7, 2019 [7 favorites]