Facebook Politics
November 26, 2019 10:49 AM Subscribe
“Facebook promised to ban white nationalist content from its platform in March 2019, reversing a years-long policy to tolerate the ideology. But Red Ice TV is just one of several white nationalist outlets that remain active on the platform today. “ White nationalists are openly operating on Facebook. The company won't act (Guardian) “So the fear is that Zuckerberg is trying to appease the Trump administration by not cracking down on right-wing propaganda.” Inside Mark Zuckerberg's private meetings with conservative pundits (Politico) “Internal documents show Facebook’s own marketing strategy was influenced by what it learned from its valued customer, the Trump campaign.” (Buzzfeed) “After the 2016 presidential election, Republican Party officials credited Facebook Inc. with helping Donald Trump win the White House. One senior official singled out a then-28-year-old Facebook employee embedded with the Trump campaign, calling him an “MVP.” Now that key player is working for the other side—as national debate intensifies over Facebook’s role in politics.” (WSJ)
Seems like they need to be protested at their HQ: 1601 Willow Rd, Menlo Park, California 94025
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:02 AM on November 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 11:02 AM on November 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
Facebook was a mistake.
No, the mistake (as we've seen at Facebook, Uber, WeWork, Google, etc.) is the creation of unaccountable corporate governance. Mark Zuckerberg spent his entire adult life getting into a position where he is accountable to nobody, and now we're seeing what that means - he's going to do as he pleases, and who the fuck are you to tell him otherwise. This is why Warren terrifies him - she's actually saying "no, you are going to be held accountable by the people through the government."
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:13 AM on November 26, 2019 [46 favorites]
No, the mistake (as we've seen at Facebook, Uber, WeWork, Google, etc.) is the creation of unaccountable corporate governance. Mark Zuckerberg spent his entire adult life getting into a position where he is accountable to nobody, and now we're seeing what that means - he's going to do as he pleases, and who the fuck are you to tell him otherwise. This is why Warren terrifies him - she's actually saying "no, you are going to be held accountable by the people through the government."
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:13 AM on November 26, 2019 [46 favorites]
"White nationalists are openly operating on Facebook. The company won't act."
That's it. That's the action.
posted by haileris23 at 11:28 AM on November 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
That's it. That's the action.
posted by haileris23 at 11:28 AM on November 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
That's it. That's the action.
And they're taking that action because the white supremacists are more than happy to offer a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to him - he lets them do as he pleases, and they (for now) don't rein him in. Of course, fascists would never let Zuckerberg control the media forever.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:34 AM on November 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
And they're taking that action because the white supremacists are more than happy to offer a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact to him - he lets them do as he pleases, and they (for now) don't rein him in. Of course, fascists would never let Zuckerberg control the media forever.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:34 AM on November 26, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's not just that they won't act against user-made content, they're actively collaborating with fascist megaphones the Daily Caller and Breitbart.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:41 AM on November 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 11:41 AM on November 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
#deletefacebook
posted by sydnius at 11:43 AM on November 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by sydnius at 11:43 AM on November 26, 2019 [6 favorites]
My god, you could put ears and a tail on this statement and have a weasel:
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:49 AM on November 26, 2019 [8 favorites]
Instagram boss Adam Mosseri went so far as to say that he himself didn’t want Breitbart in Facebook News, but argued that Facebook should not exclude publications from the tab for ideological reasons.Opposing Nazis and deplatforming them is very much an ideological move. It is also the right thing to do. If you are opposed to fighting hate because we should not act "for ideological reasons", then your moral compass is broken.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:49 AM on November 26, 2019 [8 favorites]
Non-paywall link for the WSJ article
posted by neil pierce at 12:03 PM on November 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by neil pierce at 12:03 PM on November 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
Facebook was a mistake.
As someone with bipolar and social anxiety who is 2500 miles away from most of my family and friends, Facebook has literally saved my life more than once when dialing a phone number seemed impossible, but expressing myself through a status update released enough emotional tension to get me through a crisis. I’ve gotten some of my strongest support from people who I only had a nodding acquaintance with back home, and even people who I may have only met once or twice in person but who have gotten to know me better through my more extroverted online persona.
It’s popular to dismiss Facebook as a social evil that must be shunned (especially by people on Twitter, which... hello?), but Facebook’s not the problem, at least, not Facebook the concept. Facebook the company might be, but it’s a product of its culture - not just American culture, not even just American corporate culture, but Silicon Valley culture. James Barnes, who was featured in the WSJ article, had this to say in another article.
“One thing I want to be really clear on is that I voted for Hillary Clinton,” he added. “I despised Donald Trump from the moment I learned of him. And my commitment in the 2016 election had much less to do with supporting him or his platform and a lot more to do with supporting Facebook’s commitment to democracy.”
He might have actually believed that bullshit about democracy when he started, but reading what he actually did during the campaign in the WSJ article makes it a bit harder to swallow. Instead, the incredibly mercenary nature of Silicon Valley ran into the football-game competitive ethos of GOP politics. Barnes is like countless numbers of people here in the Valley who are absolutely brilliant, have been praised all their lives for being brilliant, and who find themselves most fulfilled when their intellectual ego is stroked by solving a problem that’s been presented to them in a novel technological way. The issue is that somewhere along the way, they’ve become so detached from what they’re actually doing that it ends up looking like some mundane version of Ender’s Game, with the difference being that they should know damn well that what they do has actual consequences.
Barnes may have learned his lesson. Others have not, and, yes, others don’t care as long as their check gets in the bank before their obscene mortgage or Tesla payment comes due. But in this election cycle, at least, nobody can feign ignorance as to the effects of social media persuasion.
posted by Meghamora at 12:08 PM on November 26, 2019 [12 favorites]
As someone with bipolar and social anxiety who is 2500 miles away from most of my family and friends, Facebook has literally saved my life more than once when dialing a phone number seemed impossible, but expressing myself through a status update released enough emotional tension to get me through a crisis. I’ve gotten some of my strongest support from people who I only had a nodding acquaintance with back home, and even people who I may have only met once or twice in person but who have gotten to know me better through my more extroverted online persona.
It’s popular to dismiss Facebook as a social evil that must be shunned (especially by people on Twitter, which... hello?), but Facebook’s not the problem, at least, not Facebook the concept. Facebook the company might be, but it’s a product of its culture - not just American culture, not even just American corporate culture, but Silicon Valley culture. James Barnes, who was featured in the WSJ article, had this to say in another article.
“One thing I want to be really clear on is that I voted for Hillary Clinton,” he added. “I despised Donald Trump from the moment I learned of him. And my commitment in the 2016 election had much less to do with supporting him or his platform and a lot more to do with supporting Facebook’s commitment to democracy.”
He might have actually believed that bullshit about democracy when he started, but reading what he actually did during the campaign in the WSJ article makes it a bit harder to swallow. Instead, the incredibly mercenary nature of Silicon Valley ran into the football-game competitive ethos of GOP politics. Barnes is like countless numbers of people here in the Valley who are absolutely brilliant, have been praised all their lives for being brilliant, and who find themselves most fulfilled when their intellectual ego is stroked by solving a problem that’s been presented to them in a novel technological way. The issue is that somewhere along the way, they’ve become so detached from what they’re actually doing that it ends up looking like some mundane version of Ender’s Game, with the difference being that they should know damn well that what they do has actual consequences.
Barnes may have learned his lesson. Others have not, and, yes, others don’t care as long as their check gets in the bank before their obscene mortgage or Tesla payment comes due. But in this election cycle, at least, nobody can feign ignorance as to the effects of social media persuasion.
posted by Meghamora at 12:08 PM on November 26, 2019 [12 favorites]
No, the mistake (as we've seen at Facebook, Uber, WeWork, Google, etc.) is the creation of unaccountable corporate governance. Mark Zuckerberg spent his entire adult life getting into a position where he is accountable to nobody
The failing of corporate governance is a big part of why Zuckerberg is accountable to nobody. Facebook as a corporation is registered in Delaware which has notoriously lax rules on corporate governance. Even though Zuckerberg owns around 10% of Facebook, he has over 50% of the votes. That is because he owns special Class B shares that get 10 votes for every share. So he gets a majority of votes even though he is a minority shareholder. He's a king. He can do anything he wants with impunity with his public corporation and the rest of the shareholders can do nothing about it.
The SEC should simply forbid corporations with undemocratic governance being traded in public markets.
posted by JackFlash at 12:17 PM on November 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
The failing of corporate governance is a big part of why Zuckerberg is accountable to nobody. Facebook as a corporation is registered in Delaware which has notoriously lax rules on corporate governance. Even though Zuckerberg owns around 10% of Facebook, he has over 50% of the votes. That is because he owns special Class B shares that get 10 votes for every share. So he gets a majority of votes even though he is a minority shareholder. He's a king. He can do anything he wants with impunity with his public corporation and the rest of the shareholders can do nothing about it.
The SEC should simply forbid corporations with undemocratic governance being traded in public markets.
posted by JackFlash at 12:17 PM on November 26, 2019 [11 favorites]
the News Feed was a mistake. The pre-September 6, 2006 Facebook was more quaint, less malignant.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:20 PM on November 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 12:20 PM on November 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
I always like to remember that Facebook is the multi-billion dollar corporation with more developers than most companies will ever employ in their entire history and their main News Feed still doesn't actually sort chronologically when you choose the Most Recent sort. Not having an accurate sort makes it harder to actually keep track of your friends but easier to intersperse ads, so we see where their priorities are. Everything extrapolates out from that basic carelessness.
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:32 PM on November 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by feloniousmonk at 12:32 PM on November 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
Facebook was a mistake.
As someone with bipolar and social anxiety who is 2500 miles away from most of my family and friends,
yeah, I'm not as disconnected from loved ones and have different reasons, but my situation is similar enough. Facebook has proven very useful to me since I finally joined about seven years ago.
I don't disagree that Facebook was mistake, but would counter that it was a necessary one. Some kind of almost ubiquitous (ie: massively scaled) social media platform was probably always going to happen, and it was going to bring ... problems. Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems pretty much the history of communications media, technology in general. We stumble into the future (backwards as Marshall McLuhan would have it, eyeing it via the rear view mirror), and evolve things from there.
So, knowing what we now know about F***book (unregulated social media in general), what do we do?
posted by philip-random at 12:33 PM on November 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
As someone with bipolar and social anxiety who is 2500 miles away from most of my family and friends,
yeah, I'm not as disconnected from loved ones and have different reasons, but my situation is similar enough. Facebook has proven very useful to me since I finally joined about seven years ago.
I don't disagree that Facebook was mistake, but would counter that it was a necessary one. Some kind of almost ubiquitous (ie: massively scaled) social media platform was probably always going to happen, and it was going to bring ... problems. Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems pretty much the history of communications media, technology in general. We stumble into the future (backwards as Marshall McLuhan would have it, eyeing it via the rear view mirror), and evolve things from there.
So, knowing what we now know about F***book (unregulated social media in general), what do we do?
posted by philip-random at 12:33 PM on November 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
the News Feed was a mistake. The pre-September 6, 2006 Facebook was more quaint, less malignant.
their main News Feed still doesn't actually sort chronologically when you choose the Most Recent sort. Not having an accurate sort makes it harder to actually keep track of your friends but easier to intersperse ads, so we see where their priorities are. Everything extrapolates out from that basic carelessness
The news feed is the part of the product that most of the users are there for. Most of the users desire the curation and would be frustrated by a pure chronological timeline. As well, a pure chronological timeline is ripe for malice.
posted by PMdixon at 12:40 PM on November 26, 2019
their main News Feed still doesn't actually sort chronologically when you choose the Most Recent sort. Not having an accurate sort makes it harder to actually keep track of your friends but easier to intersperse ads, so we see where their priorities are. Everything extrapolates out from that basic carelessness
The news feed is the part of the product that most of the users are there for. Most of the users desire the curation and would be frustrated by a pure chronological timeline. As well, a pure chronological timeline is ripe for malice.
posted by PMdixon at 12:40 PM on November 26, 2019
Couldn't you replace most of Facebook with just a simplified blogging platform and an RSS feed?
posted by JackFlash at 12:48 PM on November 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 12:48 PM on November 26, 2019 [4 favorites]
Most of the users desire the curation and would be frustrated by a pure chronological timeline
The chronological sort for the news feed is not the default. They're welcome to have whatever they think people want as the default sort but if they are going to offer a supposedly chronological sort, it needs to actually work as advertised. This gets at the heart of the matter: they don't care. Their priorities are elsewhere.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:05 PM on November 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
The chronological sort for the news feed is not the default. They're welcome to have whatever they think people want as the default sort but if they are going to offer a supposedly chronological sort, it needs to actually work as advertised. This gets at the heart of the matter: they don't care. Their priorities are elsewhere.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:05 PM on November 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
The chronological sort for the news feed is not the default.
Well no because they make more money from the personalized feed. I guess I'm confused why you would expect them to do anything but the thing that maximizes engagement and of course by engagement I mean behaviors commonly associated with addiction.
posted by PMdixon at 1:20 PM on November 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
Well no because they make more money from the personalized feed. I guess I'm confused why you would expect them to do anything but the thing that maximizes engagement and of course by engagement I mean behaviors commonly associated with addiction.
posted by PMdixon at 1:20 PM on November 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
Couldn't you replace most of Facebook with just a simplified blogging platform and an RSS feed?
That's just it. Those who want to use Medium or WordPress already do. But if you want to share your life and thoughts with those closest to you, and get their immediate responses, you would do so via Facebook. Nothing wrong with blogging, it's just for most people it's easier to create content and share them via platforms like Facebook. And so it lingers.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
That's just it. Those who want to use Medium or WordPress already do. But if you want to share your life and thoughts with those closest to you, and get their immediate responses, you would do so via Facebook. Nothing wrong with blogging, it's just for most people it's easier to create content and share them via platforms like Facebook. And so it lingers.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:50 PM on November 26, 2019 [3 favorites]
Facebook was a mistake.
As someone with bipolar and social anxiety who is 2500 miles away from most of my family and friends,
I feel for you and I'm not trying to take that away at all, but as someone who struggles with mental health stuff I've never been sure how Facebook is better than email or a direct SMS/txt/chat client or something.
It seems like the whole public/social aspect would be worse, though, with managing all of the complex privacy settings and feeds of stuff that have nothing to do with your family and friends or staying in touch with them and all of that.
I also would like people to question and ask if Facebook is taking advantage of or manipulating many forms of communication anxiety or management of that anxiety and further ask that people might want to consider being mad about that instead of grateful?
I can imagine that it can be easier due to contact management or that the friends or family don't or won't use anything except Facebook -- but this isn't necessarily and inherent positive argument for Facebook.
Sure, yeah, I have really strong opinions about this. I was fortunate or unfortunate to see some of the earliest original incarnations of TheFacebook when it was limited to EDU addresses and invitation-only networking and it was full of rich, pretty and popular students and dead-eyed bullies and I immediately thought "Oh this isn't going to end well at all."
It would give me a great deal of anxiety to have an account with that company with that knowledge, and watching the spread and growth of Facebook over the last 10-15 years has been utterly alarming and frightening, and as people adopted to using it it's felt like I have have been backed into little isolated pockets of the internet, and I have to work extra hard to maintain contacts with friends and family who mainly use Facebook. For nearly everything. From hosting photos to organizing parties to even organizing activism.
From here, from the outside, as someone who refuses to use it and deals with similar communications anxiety sometimes? It seems like I can barely get anyone to reply to even short emails any more, and have major difficulty trying to get anyone to just use non-Facebook group communications. I'm really lucky if I can get anyone in an SMS thread, and I'm talking about very close friends and family.
Things have changed so much out here on the outside of Facebook and it's alarming to me that most people don't seem to care and just shrug and keep using Facebook even though we know it, Zuckerberg and the whole company is totally fucked.
Facebook has been a horrible mistake. This statement isn't a judgement on anyone's character for using it. Almost everyone is using it.
Facebook has been a horrible mistake because these are the real problems and real risks of privatized, centralized, walled garden social media, data harvesting, advertising and manipulation come to horrifying real life in ways that are now so gigantic, complicated and Byzantine that it's difficult to even comprehend, and "social credit" is now been a real world dystopian thing.
It's actually worse than I imagined ten, twenty years ago.
Please, I beg people to stop using it en masse as soon as possible. I will keep asking this. I'm not saying all social media is terrible but Facebook is factually terrible and it has been a horrible mistake.
It's probably crucially important as a tool to preserve and promote democracy and restore some sanity and balance to the disinformation problem that Facebook itself is causing.
If everyone keeps using Facebook and saying "Yeah, it's horrible, but..." it's just going to get worse and worse as people keep using it and they find new, innovative and disruptive ways to use data and manipulate people.
posted by loquacious at 3:17 PM on November 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
As someone with bipolar and social anxiety who is 2500 miles away from most of my family and friends,
I feel for you and I'm not trying to take that away at all, but as someone who struggles with mental health stuff I've never been sure how Facebook is better than email or a direct SMS/txt/chat client or something.
It seems like the whole public/social aspect would be worse, though, with managing all of the complex privacy settings and feeds of stuff that have nothing to do with your family and friends or staying in touch with them and all of that.
I also would like people to question and ask if Facebook is taking advantage of or manipulating many forms of communication anxiety or management of that anxiety and further ask that people might want to consider being mad about that instead of grateful?
I can imagine that it can be easier due to contact management or that the friends or family don't or won't use anything except Facebook -- but this isn't necessarily and inherent positive argument for Facebook.
Sure, yeah, I have really strong opinions about this. I was fortunate or unfortunate to see some of the earliest original incarnations of TheFacebook when it was limited to EDU addresses and invitation-only networking and it was full of rich, pretty and popular students and dead-eyed bullies and I immediately thought "Oh this isn't going to end well at all."
It would give me a great deal of anxiety to have an account with that company with that knowledge, and watching the spread and growth of Facebook over the last 10-15 years has been utterly alarming and frightening, and as people adopted to using it it's felt like I have have been backed into little isolated pockets of the internet, and I have to work extra hard to maintain contacts with friends and family who mainly use Facebook. For nearly everything. From hosting photos to organizing parties to even organizing activism.
From here, from the outside, as someone who refuses to use it and deals with similar communications anxiety sometimes? It seems like I can barely get anyone to reply to even short emails any more, and have major difficulty trying to get anyone to just use non-Facebook group communications. I'm really lucky if I can get anyone in an SMS thread, and I'm talking about very close friends and family.
Things have changed so much out here on the outside of Facebook and it's alarming to me that most people don't seem to care and just shrug and keep using Facebook even though we know it, Zuckerberg and the whole company is totally fucked.
Facebook has been a horrible mistake. This statement isn't a judgement on anyone's character for using it. Almost everyone is using it.
Facebook has been a horrible mistake because these are the real problems and real risks of privatized, centralized, walled garden social media, data harvesting, advertising and manipulation come to horrifying real life in ways that are now so gigantic, complicated and Byzantine that it's difficult to even comprehend, and "social credit" is now been a real world dystopian thing.
It's actually worse than I imagined ten, twenty years ago.
Please, I beg people to stop using it en masse as soon as possible. I will keep asking this. I'm not saying all social media is terrible but Facebook is factually terrible and it has been a horrible mistake.
It's probably crucially important as a tool to preserve and promote democracy and restore some sanity and balance to the disinformation problem that Facebook itself is causing.
If everyone keeps using Facebook and saying "Yeah, it's horrible, but..." it's just going to get worse and worse as people keep using it and they find new, innovative and disruptive ways to use data and manipulate people.
posted by loquacious at 3:17 PM on November 26, 2019 [18 favorites]
I used to work in oil and gas accounting. We were pretty damn evil, but you needed us in order not to freeze to death in the winter.
FB is pretty damn evil, but it’s my best connection to the people on both coasts who matter to my stuck-in-flyover-country heart. Asking them all to text or email what’s going on in their lives would be a big ask, a serious demand of emotional labour, and remembering to send such updates to all of them would be hell on my ADHD-addled, workaholic brain.
It’s a pain in the ass to wade through all the nonsense garbage memes from people who live closer, care less, and have less going on. It’s also gut-wrenching to see that Melinda-from-work or first-cousin-once-removed is falling for DT45’s noxious poison.
But it’s easy enough to inversely correlate posting frequency with post quality, to make a list of people who fall in the right quadrant, and to curate a feed that includes them. Having lost enough of my local family to death, estrangement, and the cult of Trump, I am unwilling to give up these farther-flung connections. Maybe if enough of them defect, I will too.
We would probably lose touch, because some of us (either by dint of profession or sheer paranoia) only talk one-on-one offline, but we only know we’ll be in the same place because of social media. Maybe we just don’t love each other enough, but I don’t think that’s it. It’s become a utility, really; maybe we should regulate it like one. Or better.
It’s been a long time since my last paycheque from the gas company. I’m still afraid of the cold, I guess.
posted by armeowda at 5:58 PM on November 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
FB is pretty damn evil, but it’s my best connection to the people on both coasts who matter to my stuck-in-flyover-country heart. Asking them all to text or email what’s going on in their lives would be a big ask, a serious demand of emotional labour, and remembering to send such updates to all of them would be hell on my ADHD-addled, workaholic brain.
It’s a pain in the ass to wade through all the nonsense garbage memes from people who live closer, care less, and have less going on. It’s also gut-wrenching to see that Melinda-from-work or first-cousin-once-removed is falling for DT45’s noxious poison.
But it’s easy enough to inversely correlate posting frequency with post quality, to make a list of people who fall in the right quadrant, and to curate a feed that includes them. Having lost enough of my local family to death, estrangement, and the cult of Trump, I am unwilling to give up these farther-flung connections. Maybe if enough of them defect, I will too.
We would probably lose touch, because some of us (either by dint of profession or sheer paranoia) only talk one-on-one offline, but we only know we’ll be in the same place because of social media. Maybe we just don’t love each other enough, but I don’t think that’s it. It’s become a utility, really; maybe we should regulate it like one. Or better.
It’s been a long time since my last paycheque from the gas company. I’m still afraid of the cold, I guess.
posted by armeowda at 5:58 PM on November 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Asking them all to text or email what’s going on in their lives would be a big ask,
And through all the evil that FB has caused, this is still part of the worst of it. That it's too overwhelming or impossible to keep in touch without them. That it's easier to share with anyone who might listen instead of trying to personally connect with your loved ones.
I reject all of that. I want better, for myself, and for all of you.
posted by agregoli at 6:33 PM on November 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
And through all the evil that FB has caused, this is still part of the worst of it. That it's too overwhelming or impossible to keep in touch without them. That it's easier to share with anyone who might listen instead of trying to personally connect with your loved ones.
I reject all of that. I want better, for myself, and for all of you.
posted by agregoli at 6:33 PM on November 26, 2019 [7 favorites]
I respect your ideals. Again, for some of us, maybe it is a lot of artifice. If they really loved me, I could count on them to keep in touch if I deactivated tomorrow, and I kind of know how unlikely that is.
Not everyone’s loved ones are proactive about staying close. I’m usually the one getting on planes (also evil, don’t worry, I know this) to go visit mine, or the one buying dinner, or the one doing all the listening while they talk, and those are the ones who haven’t cut me dead. I already suspect it’s a one-sided fondness. Have suspected all my life. Leaving FB could confirm that fear, and I’m not ready right now.
For a lot of us, outside prescriptions for maintaining family togetherness are a touchy thing this time of year. I know you wouldn’t presume to know my situation better than I do. Hell, maybe you do know better. I’m too chicken right now, and also (this I know) too damn stretched. I have to think there are others like me.
posted by armeowda at 7:28 PM on November 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
Not everyone’s loved ones are proactive about staying close. I’m usually the one getting on planes (also evil, don’t worry, I know this) to go visit mine, or the one buying dinner, or the one doing all the listening while they talk, and those are the ones who haven’t cut me dead. I already suspect it’s a one-sided fondness. Have suspected all my life. Leaving FB could confirm that fear, and I’m not ready right now.
For a lot of us, outside prescriptions for maintaining family togetherness are a touchy thing this time of year. I know you wouldn’t presume to know my situation better than I do. Hell, maybe you do know better. I’m too chicken right now, and also (this I know) too damn stretched. I have to think there are others like me.
posted by armeowda at 7:28 PM on November 26, 2019 [5 favorites]
For a lot of us, outside prescriptions for maintaining family togetherness are a touchy thing this time of year. I know you wouldn’t presume to know my situation better than I do. Hell, maybe you do know better. I’m too chicken right now, and also (this I know) too damn stretched. I have to think there are others like me.
Again, I totally feel and get this and I want to be clear I'm not criticizing you or any individual here. Please don't take it personally. I'm not asking you or anyone to abandon Facebook right this instant. I want people to think about it, though.
Also, I'm definitely not expecting the vulnerable or marginalized to self advocate or lead the way or make the changes that might be easier for others to lead the way.
This isn't a contest or race but on the other side of this divide - try to think about it from my side outside of Facebook.
I basically miss out on tons of family and friend interactions and it's been that way for years because I don't use Facebook and effectively nearly everyone else does use it.
Both of the things we're talking about are symptoms of the same thing and problem. I don't get to participate in a lot of friend, family and local communication because I don't and won't Facebook, and many many people also can't communicate with friends and family without Facebook.
I am not attacking you or people who rely on Facebook. I'm attacking Facebook in the same way that criticizing aspects of late stage capitalism are meant to attack late stage capitalism itself, not punching sideways or down at the people who use it or rely on it.
I don't have prescriptions. I wish I had better solutions to offer. I wish there was some way to magically provide a better, easier option where people could just one-click export the parts of Facebook they need to an equal or better service with better ethics.
Which, ironically, is one of the ways Facebook grew so fast was auto-harvesting people's phone and email contact lists and effectively offering a one-click import. I am still really irritated and salty by the lack of consent and privacy this entails in the same way I would be irritated if someone gave my phone number to a marketer or a stranger without my permission.
I don't really have any solutions besides trying to have a dialog about how we can escape this and figure out what's next, and the only solution I can see at the moment seems to be to leave Facebook and find alternatives.
And it's like there's this giant abusive monster in the room everyone sees but is ignoring and tolerating. I know I sound like a luddite or an irritating mad street prophet or something because I want to scream and point at the abusive monster in the room - clearly I would like to stand on this proverbial monster's neck - and so it's also really stressful to hear almost everyone in my life effectively say the same thing. "Yeah, Facebook is evil, buuut..." and knowing and feeling that they're trapped and it's this... wall running through the whole of the internet.
And right now I don't really see yet another mass social media migration or exodus like there was with Friendster, MySpace, and so on.
My dystopian Science Fiction obsessed opinion is that Facebook may be one of the most dangerous things that's ever happened to humanity and it's ability to manipulate things and falsely intermediate the public dialog on a global scale with no regulation or oversight far exceeds television's wildest dreams or aspirations, and it's just getting started.
It's like watching drunk frat boys play with fire and making improvised fireworks and it makes me want to scream like the theater is on fire. And they're starting to learn how to make guided missiles and smartbombs and think it's real cool.
And I'm not even sure how you could regulate social media without killing off major portions of the best, healthiest parts of the internet without it.
And, well, it's probably going to get a lot worse as some major fraction of the global population keeps using it. This isn't a personal attack on anyone - I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about being on Facebook.
And, woah, it's probably telling that the language I have to use to talk about Facebook sounds almost exactly like talking about drug or alcohol abuse and trying to divide the complex problem itself from the real value and needs of the individuals involved.
posted by loquacious at 8:57 PM on November 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
Again, I totally feel and get this and I want to be clear I'm not criticizing you or any individual here. Please don't take it personally. I'm not asking you or anyone to abandon Facebook right this instant. I want people to think about it, though.
Also, I'm definitely not expecting the vulnerable or marginalized to self advocate or lead the way or make the changes that might be easier for others to lead the way.
This isn't a contest or race but on the other side of this divide - try to think about it from my side outside of Facebook.
I basically miss out on tons of family and friend interactions and it's been that way for years because I don't use Facebook and effectively nearly everyone else does use it.
Both of the things we're talking about are symptoms of the same thing and problem. I don't get to participate in a lot of friend, family and local communication because I don't and won't Facebook, and many many people also can't communicate with friends and family without Facebook.
I am not attacking you or people who rely on Facebook. I'm attacking Facebook in the same way that criticizing aspects of late stage capitalism are meant to attack late stage capitalism itself, not punching sideways or down at the people who use it or rely on it.
I don't have prescriptions. I wish I had better solutions to offer. I wish there was some way to magically provide a better, easier option where people could just one-click export the parts of Facebook they need to an equal or better service with better ethics.
Which, ironically, is one of the ways Facebook grew so fast was auto-harvesting people's phone and email contact lists and effectively offering a one-click import. I am still really irritated and salty by the lack of consent and privacy this entails in the same way I would be irritated if someone gave my phone number to a marketer or a stranger without my permission.
I don't really have any solutions besides trying to have a dialog about how we can escape this and figure out what's next, and the only solution I can see at the moment seems to be to leave Facebook and find alternatives.
And it's like there's this giant abusive monster in the room everyone sees but is ignoring and tolerating. I know I sound like a luddite or an irritating mad street prophet or something because I want to scream and point at the abusive monster in the room - clearly I would like to stand on this proverbial monster's neck - and so it's also really stressful to hear almost everyone in my life effectively say the same thing. "Yeah, Facebook is evil, buuut..." and knowing and feeling that they're trapped and it's this... wall running through the whole of the internet.
And right now I don't really see yet another mass social media migration or exodus like there was with Friendster, MySpace, and so on.
My dystopian Science Fiction obsessed opinion is that Facebook may be one of the most dangerous things that's ever happened to humanity and it's ability to manipulate things and falsely intermediate the public dialog on a global scale with no regulation or oversight far exceeds television's wildest dreams or aspirations, and it's just getting started.
It's like watching drunk frat boys play with fire and making improvised fireworks and it makes me want to scream like the theater is on fire. And they're starting to learn how to make guided missiles and smartbombs and think it's real cool.
And I'm not even sure how you could regulate social media without killing off major portions of the best, healthiest parts of the internet without it.
And, well, it's probably going to get a lot worse as some major fraction of the global population keeps using it. This isn't a personal attack on anyone - I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about being on Facebook.
And, woah, it's probably telling that the language I have to use to talk about Facebook sounds almost exactly like talking about drug or alcohol abuse and trying to divide the complex problem itself from the real value and needs of the individuals involved.
posted by loquacious at 8:57 PM on November 26, 2019 [9 favorites]
So since it seems that deleting Facebook is not an option for many, can we get back to talking about the very good idea Abehammerb Lincoln had way up thread, for a mass protest at their corporate offices?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:58 PM on November 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:58 PM on November 26, 2019 [2 favorites]
I've been planting the idea among progressive friends that relying exclusively on FB's hostile CEO, who's pals with dictator-wannabes, for our communications and mobilizing is bananas. At best, when push comes to shove, it'd be a piece of cake to disrupt our communications. At worst, we're sitting ducks for being rounded up.
I'm asking them to at least be able to contact their people/groups by some other route. So many people only do FB Messenger.
Applying some of Jane McAlevey's principles, I'm also listening to them about what FB does that works for them, and which other social media they've tried that didn't work, and why, and which social media they haven't tried yet but are open to.
Since most people's reasons for staying is "My friends and family are on FB," moving in groups is more likely to be effective than individuals leaving all by themselves. But that means having face to face, one-on-one motivating conversations and pointing people to viable replacements. "I'm on Diaspora [or wherever]. I can help you set up an account there, link you up with my friends there, you could try it out for a bit just to see how it feels to know that your data isn't feeding fascists" or something...
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:44 AM on November 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
I'm asking them to at least be able to contact their people/groups by some other route. So many people only do FB Messenger.
Applying some of Jane McAlevey's principles, I'm also listening to them about what FB does that works for them, and which other social media they've tried that didn't work, and why, and which social media they haven't tried yet but are open to.
Since most people's reasons for staying is "My friends and family are on FB," moving in groups is more likely to be effective than individuals leaving all by themselves. But that means having face to face, one-on-one motivating conversations and pointing people to viable replacements. "I'm on Diaspora [or wherever]. I can help you set up an account there, link you up with my friends there, you could try it out for a bit just to see how it feels to know that your data isn't feeding fascists" or something...
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 12:44 AM on November 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
There are tiny ways to subvert the far right on Facebook. A few years ago I tried it out by weaving a bunch of true stories about Ms. S, my son’s delightful and hilarious Montessori teacher. Her wisdom handed out at pickup was great and kind of folksy and some of my right-wing relatives were cheering her on.
After the spring concert I deliberately posted a few more and then a picture of her in abaya and hijab with my son. Now, I’ve evolved since and I’m not sure I would do the same without collaborating now but Ms. S has been a touchstone in our online family political discussions since, in discussing Harper’s “help” line, Quebec’s secularism law, etc.
I’m also for a protest and legislation.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:25 AM on November 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
After the spring concert I deliberately posted a few more and then a picture of her in abaya and hijab with my son. Now, I’ve evolved since and I’m not sure I would do the same without collaborating now but Ms. S has been a touchstone in our online family political discussions since, in discussing Harper’s “help” line, Quebec’s secularism law, etc.
I’m also for a protest and legislation.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:25 AM on November 27, 2019 [7 favorites]
For example, the Trump campaign needed a large credit line from Facebook, according to Mr. Barnes and others familiar with the situation. This issue posed special challenges. Facebook sometimes extends credit to a select group of digital agencies, but Mr. Parscale’s outfit didn’t qualify for a large line because it didn’t have a track record with Facebook, according to people familiar with the matter. The Trump team also wanted to pay for ads with a credit card, but Facebook’s transactions system wasn’t set up to handle payments of as much as $300,000 to $400,000 a day on a credit card, according to Mr. Barnes and others familiar with the matter.I'm surprised they got paid in the end at all.
posted by clawsoon at 3:33 AM on November 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
Stopped logging in sometime mid-Feb. Deleted the app from my devices about a month ago. I have missed out on a little bit of actual important stuff, but I have also missed out on pointless drama, political ads, people posting maudlin religious images, sports fans gloating that their team is better than my team, etc... it’s been quite refreshing not to see all that shit, not to be forever seeking after the adrenaline rush of the favorite count, and I am positive it has been better for my well-being and mental health not to be stuck in that garbage. Instead of hearing from people I barely know from high school, I’m paying attention to the community and family I see daily in actual real life.
Took a little for people to figure out I had gone radio-silent. But you know what? When Cousin X got married out of the blue, he called me to tell me. I didn’t need to see it in a Facebook post. The phone call felt a lot more personal.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:06 AM on November 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
Took a little for people to figure out I had gone radio-silent. But you know what? When Cousin X got married out of the blue, he called me to tell me. I didn’t need to see it in a Facebook post. The phone call felt a lot more personal.
posted by caution live frogs at 5:06 AM on November 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
At the risk of causing a firestorm here...to those of us on the blue repeatedly citing the argument that, despite the obvious problems with FB, how would I be able to insert thing that FB makes possible/easier for you, your friends, your family, here with out it, I would ask in return, rhetorically: perhaps you should ask the European Jews and other ethnic minorities who went into hiding (or worse) before and during WWII how they managed?
We are going to have to make increasingly difficult choices regarding certain comforts and conveniences going forward if we want some real changes, better options. So perhaps: get used to it?
(P.S. For perspective: I am the son of a man who’s family was decimated by the NAZIs, with relatives who “survived” Auschwitz.)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 9:01 AM on November 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
We are going to have to make increasingly difficult choices regarding certain comforts and conveniences going forward if we want some real changes, better options. So perhaps: get used to it?
(P.S. For perspective: I am the son of a man who’s family was decimated by the NAZIs, with relatives who “survived” Auschwitz.)
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 9:01 AM on November 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
I used to work in oil and gas accounting. We were pretty damn evil, but you needed us in order not to freeze to death in the winter.
FB is pretty damn evil, but [...] It’s become a utility, really; maybe we should regulate it like one.
Agreed. It's a utility and utilities are pretty much evil by default ... or they certainly have that tendency in their DNA. Because we come to need them. That gives them power over us, and power corrupts. Doesn't matter who has it. But I'd prefer it was some kind of regulated agency as opposed to a private initiative.
I've found over the years that the friendships (and this includes family members) that I can maintain are defined by basically two things, beyond our ability to get along with each other.
1. proximity (ie: we're neighbors, live or work close enough to each other that making some kind of regular contact isn't a chore, it's easy).
2. we share an active common interest-passion-concern, which could be work, could be a hobby, a club, a band, a team.
What I immediately like about Facebook is:
A. how it expands my relative proximity with people. For instance, my cousin whose company I've always enjoyed but whose work is as likely to have him in Africa as the far north. Before Facebook, we saw each other exactly once in more than thirty years and maybe talked on the phone a half dozen times. Now, we engage directly at least once a month and otherwise keep track of each other's movements on a more or less daily basis.
B. how it also expands the community of people with whom I share common interests-passions-concerns. For instance, I have friends I've never met who I "talk to" regularly about such vitally important matters as which phase of Jethro Tull's career is most relevant today, or whether it's cool to discuss Joni Mitchell among Bob Dylan fans (I'm in favor obviously) ... or whatever. The point being, Facebook has expanded the notion of the water cooler at work, or the corner store, or wherever I might just casually run into someone with whom I share a common concern-passion-interest. This enriches my day-to-day. I'm not in a hurry to give this up.
posted by philip-random at 9:01 AM on November 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
FB is pretty damn evil, but [...] It’s become a utility, really; maybe we should regulate it like one.
Agreed. It's a utility and utilities are pretty much evil by default ... or they certainly have that tendency in their DNA. Because we come to need them. That gives them power over us, and power corrupts. Doesn't matter who has it. But I'd prefer it was some kind of regulated agency as opposed to a private initiative.
I've found over the years that the friendships (and this includes family members) that I can maintain are defined by basically two things, beyond our ability to get along with each other.
1. proximity (ie: we're neighbors, live or work close enough to each other that making some kind of regular contact isn't a chore, it's easy).
2. we share an active common interest-passion-concern, which could be work, could be a hobby, a club, a band, a team.
What I immediately like about Facebook is:
A. how it expands my relative proximity with people. For instance, my cousin whose company I've always enjoyed but whose work is as likely to have him in Africa as the far north. Before Facebook, we saw each other exactly once in more than thirty years and maybe talked on the phone a half dozen times. Now, we engage directly at least once a month and otherwise keep track of each other's movements on a more or less daily basis.
B. how it also expands the community of people with whom I share common interests-passions-concerns. For instance, I have friends I've never met who I "talk to" regularly about such vitally important matters as which phase of Jethro Tull's career is most relevant today, or whether it's cool to discuss Joni Mitchell among Bob Dylan fans (I'm in favor obviously) ... or whatever. The point being, Facebook has expanded the notion of the water cooler at work, or the corner store, or wherever I might just casually run into someone with whom I share a common concern-passion-interest. This enriches my day-to-day. I'm not in a hurry to give this up.
posted by philip-random at 9:01 AM on November 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
And not to sputter or anything, but it's like, yeah that all sounds very nice indeed. For me, that's not worth supporting a company that enriches the activities of white supremacists and child pornographers, for only a severe corner of what's wrong with them. It's insidious, because Facebook has become a link to friends and family. But if even a tenth of what they are responsible for was attributed to, say, Target, none of my liberal friends would ever shop there again. But they all can't leave FB because that would be "leaving" part of their social circle.
****I am not angry with, or putting down anyone who still uses it. I understand that it's a hard thing to let go of. I hate THEM for leverging people's emotions and creating a problem where we have trouble letting go of it, because we would miss out on parts of our own life. It's a hijacking of normal human interaction. ****
posted by agregoli at 9:14 AM on November 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
****I am not angry with, or putting down anyone who still uses it. I understand that it's a hard thing to let go of. I hate THEM for leverging people's emotions and creating a problem where we have trouble letting go of it, because we would miss out on parts of our own life. It's a hijacking of normal human interaction. ****
posted by agregoli at 9:14 AM on November 27, 2019 [6 favorites]
The last new broadcast medium was radio and that's regulated out the wazoo, for historical context. It's a social, not technical, fact that we can't all be constantly running our own transmitter letting the world know what we're doing.
Also worth noting that the Rwandan genocide and I believe others were largely coordinated by radio.
Broadcast media are dangerous exactly because of their reach.
posted by PMdixon at 9:14 AM on November 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
Also worth noting that the Rwandan genocide and I believe others were largely coordinated by radio.
Broadcast media are dangerous exactly because of their reach.
posted by PMdixon at 9:14 AM on November 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
I’m also for a protest and legislation.
absolutely. Speaking of which, this just showed up in my Facebook news feed:
Mark Zuckerberg – Dead At 32 – Denies Facebook Has Problem With Fake News
I'd love to see this sort of thing truly catch hold. Stuff like Stephen Colbert referring to the "Late Mark Zuckerberg", memorials etc. Push it so hard it gets picked up by the flat-earthers ...
posted by philip-random at 9:17 AM on November 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
absolutely. Speaking of which, this just showed up in my Facebook news feed:
Mark Zuckerberg – Dead At 32 – Denies Facebook Has Problem With Fake News
I'd love to see this sort of thing truly catch hold. Stuff like Stephen Colbert referring to the "Late Mark Zuckerberg", memorials etc. Push it so hard it gets picked up by the flat-earthers ...
posted by philip-random at 9:17 AM on November 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
How will trolling Zuckerberg prevent the use of Facebook as a propaganda platform? How will trolling Zuckerberg prevent it being profitable for Facebook to choose to allow itself to be used as a propaganda channel?
posted by PMdixon at 9:20 AM on November 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by PMdixon at 9:20 AM on November 27, 2019 [1 favorite]
But if even a tenth of what they are responsible for was attributed to, say, Target, none of my liberal friends would ever shop there again. But they all can't leave FB because that would be "leaving" part of their social circle.
you're describing the difference between a retail outlet and a utility here. The first is at some level a luxury (there are certainly other options). There currently doesn't seem to be another option to Facebook. Nothing that can come close to matching it in terms of ubiquity and utility.
posted by philip-random at 9:21 AM on November 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
you're describing the difference between a retail outlet and a utility here. The first is at some level a luxury (there are certainly other options). There currently doesn't seem to be another option to Facebook. Nothing that can come close to matching it in terms of ubiquity and utility.
posted by philip-random at 9:21 AM on November 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
How will trolling Zuckerberg prevent the use of Facebook as a propaganda platform? How will trolling Zuckerberg prevent it being profitable for Facebook to choose to allow itself to be used as a propaganda channel?
I don't know. It's just one possible tactic. If the overall strategy is to build the sort of critical mass that will force Facebook to become a publicly owned utility, then I can see the trolling as part of that noise.
posted by philip-random at 9:24 AM on November 27, 2019
Yes, hello, that's my point. That's by design. That doesn't change anything I said. People who should reject what FB does, because of what they care about, wouldn't stand for it in other contexts because FB has made it personal and emotional to leave.
posted by agregoli at 9:25 AM on November 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 9:25 AM on November 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't know. It's just one possible tactic. If the overall strategy is to build the sort of critical mass that will force Facebook to become a publicly owned utility, then I can see the trolling as part of that noise.
see i prefer to do things because i have some articulable reason i expect them to result in a world more to my liking than the alternatives and it seems pretty clear just from this thread that there is much better reason to believe putting energy into making alternative comms channels attractive to people will accomplish things i want than some bizarre pretense that Zuckerberg is in a position that telling spurious obvious falsehoods about him in a rote fashion will result in anything whatsoever
posted by PMdixon at 9:35 AM on November 27, 2019
see i prefer to do things because i have some articulable reason i expect them to result in a world more to my liking than the alternatives and it seems pretty clear just from this thread that there is much better reason to believe putting energy into making alternative comms channels attractive to people will accomplish things i want than some bizarre pretense that Zuckerberg is in a position that telling spurious obvious falsehoods about him in a rote fashion will result in anything whatsoever
posted by PMdixon at 9:35 AM on November 27, 2019
People who should reject what FB does, because of what they care about, wouldn't stand for it in other contexts because FB has made it personal and emotional to leave.
... and that's my point. Emphasis mine obviously. And trust me, I'd leave in a second if I thought doing so would somehow strike a significant blow against the "white supremacists and child pornographers". But I somehow doubt it.
Maybe what we need is something like a strike. Come up with a list of demands. Spread them around. Get buy-in from a significant number of Facebook members (in the millions). Set a date for Facebook to respond to these demands ... or else. Losing very many active members all of a sudden for a very clear reason -- that might actually accomplish something.
and I'm out of this thread for a while. I've got some real life to attend to.
posted by philip-random at 9:42 AM on November 27, 2019
... and that's my point. Emphasis mine obviously. And trust me, I'd leave in a second if I thought doing so would somehow strike a significant blow against the "white supremacists and child pornographers". But I somehow doubt it.
Maybe what we need is something like a strike. Come up with a list of demands. Spread them around. Get buy-in from a significant number of Facebook members (in the millions). Set a date for Facebook to respond to these demands ... or else. Losing very many active members all of a sudden for a very clear reason -- that might actually accomplish something.
and I'm out of this thread for a while. I've got some real life to attend to.
posted by philip-random at 9:42 AM on November 27, 2019
Okay... so... wow. I’m not really a big part of this community - just one of the lurkers - so, I’m probably looking silly by flouncing out of this thread, but there is some really gross ableist shit going on here regarding communication and interconnection and the “healthiness” of different forms of outreach. Prefacing it with “I’m not attacking you, I’m attacking Facebook,” doesn’t really mitigate that.
posted by Meghamora at 9:43 AM on November 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Meghamora at 9:43 AM on November 27, 2019 [2 favorites]
Different communications methods have different externalities in exactly the same way that different transportation methods have different externalities.
posted by PMdixon at 9:45 AM on November 27, 2019
posted by PMdixon at 9:45 AM on November 27, 2019
You quoted me I hope, just to quote me. But I am not being hyperbolic about white supremacists on FB, nor about their support of child pornography. It's important people know what they are supporting.
It's also crazy to say, If I thought it would help, I would leave. That's the only thing, individually, you CAN do to help. And to help empower others to leave. Why do you think I'm not on Facebook and speak up here on Metafilter about it all the time? It's important to me to at least try to change minds. Shrugging does nothing. If you don't really care, that's fine, but no need to argue with the likes of me, then. Just continue using it.
posted by agregoli at 9:47 AM on November 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
It's also crazy to say, If I thought it would help, I would leave. That's the only thing, individually, you CAN do to help. And to help empower others to leave. Why do you think I'm not on Facebook and speak up here on Metafilter about it all the time? It's important to me to at least try to change minds. Shrugging does nothing. If you don't really care, that's fine, but no need to argue with the likes of me, then. Just continue using it.
posted by agregoli at 9:47 AM on November 27, 2019 [3 favorites]
I am not trying to be abelist. If people need Facebook for their mental or emotional health, have at it, and you won't get a peep out of me. But I hope an alternative comes along that is better for everyone.
(How can I talk about Facebook and how I think MOST people should leave it without being abelist? Honest question, and if that sucks to ask too, then I'm sorry).
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on November 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
(How can I talk about Facebook and how I think MOST people should leave it without being abelist? Honest question, and if that sucks to ask too, then I'm sorry).
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on November 27, 2019 [4 favorites]
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posted by Fizz at 10:53 AM on November 26, 2019 [30 favorites]