The upside-down world of the INS.
July 30, 2002 12:40 PM Subscribe
The upside-down world of the INS. On September 12th Deena Gilbey (the wife of Paul Gilbey, a EuroBroker that died when the towers collapsed) received a letter from the INS stating that she was now subject to arrest and deportation because her husband no longer retained a valid visa (he was dead). And so the story begins of one Deena Gilbey and of her two children (born in the U.S.) and of the Visa Express pilot program in Saudia Arabia and the UAE that permitted three of the hijackers to obtain a visa without having to go through a consular official.
I doubt she got that letter on September 12th...
Facts like that just get in the way.
posted by flatlander at 12:57 PM on July 30, 2002
Facts like that just get in the way.
posted by flatlander at 12:57 PM on July 30, 2002
Stifford: I didn't see any of the articles saying it was the 12th, the Post said it was "a few days later". I think titboy did a little bit of editorializing, which doesn't take away from the stories themselves.
posted by insomnyuk at 12:59 PM on July 30, 2002
posted by insomnyuk at 12:59 PM on July 30, 2002
Actually, it looks like the story is over, not just beginning. The article from your second link says she was granted the green card.
posted by misterioso at 12:59 PM on July 30, 2002
posted by misterioso at 12:59 PM on July 30, 2002
Here are a couple of links regarding Visa Express. The government's page is "under construction" (the heat's on, and such). I cannot claim that my linked articles are objective. They are simply points of information.
( .)(. ), your post is misleading. Your first article is pure opinionated drivel, and sounds like a transcript from 20/20 or DateLine. She did not receive that letter on the 12th. And the INS was following protocol when sending that letter. I see nothing wrong with deporting people if their visa is dependent upon someone who has recently died. That's SOP. The fact that it was 9/11 is what's helping this make headlines, along with the whole Visa Express scandal.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:04 PM on July 30, 2002
( .)(. ), your post is misleading. Your first article is pure opinionated drivel, and sounds like a transcript from 20/20 or DateLine. She did not receive that letter on the 12th. And the INS was following protocol when sending that letter. I see nothing wrong with deporting people if their visa is dependent upon someone who has recently died. That's SOP. The fact that it was 9/11 is what's helping this make headlines, along with the whole Visa Express scandal.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:04 PM on July 30, 2002
I see nothing wrong with deporting people if their visa is dependent upon someone who has recently died.
So you see nothing wrong with deporting a woman who has two children that were born in this country? If I get killed on the way home today, do you think my wife should be deported, even though she has lived here for 12 years and we have two sons that are American citizens?
Maybe you should get a job with the INS.
posted by norm29 at 1:13 PM on July 30, 2002
So you see nothing wrong with deporting a woman who has two children that were born in this country? If I get killed on the way home today, do you think my wife should be deported, even though she has lived here for 12 years and we have two sons that are American citizens?
Maybe you should get a job with the INS.
posted by norm29 at 1:13 PM on July 30, 2002
I wasn't trying to say "She didn't get the letter on the 12th, this story is shit". It was just in the first line of the FPP, and that was the first thing that popped in my mind. :)
posted by stifford at 1:18 PM on July 30, 2002
posted by stifford at 1:18 PM on July 30, 2002
If I get killed on the way home today, do you think my wife should be deported, even though she has lived here for 12 years and we have two sons that are American citizens?
What I would hope is that after 12 years in this country, your wife finally has a green card, or even citizenship. It's a difficult process, I understand because I've been there with plenty of relatives, but planning for your future isn't the INS's job. The fact that her two children, or your two children, are US citizens is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It's simply an emotional plea to sucker people into supporting her position.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:26 PM on July 30, 2002
What I would hope is that after 12 years in this country, your wife finally has a green card, or even citizenship. It's a difficult process, I understand because I've been there with plenty of relatives, but planning for your future isn't the INS's job. The fact that her two children, or your two children, are US citizens is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It's simply an emotional plea to sucker people into supporting her position.
posted by BlueTrain at 1:26 PM on July 30, 2002
I think something is wrong with a policy that allows someone to purchase a house and live in a country while being entirely dependent on someone else's visa if that visa can be so easily revoked, even when the situation is death. Surely this situation is likely as it is in no way dependent on terrorist attacks. Perhaps spouses of those awarded visas should be given them as well?
However, the problem is not the INS workers who sent the letter, it is the ridiculous rules & regulations surrounding immigration in the United States. It's ridiculous that a country pretty much founded on immigration still has not been able to get it's s#@& together, but lots of unfairness & idiocy happens with regards to immigration everyday, and not only in the US either.
posted by catfood at 1:30 PM on July 30, 2002
However, the problem is not the INS workers who sent the letter, it is the ridiculous rules & regulations surrounding immigration in the United States. It's ridiculous that a country pretty much founded on immigration still has not been able to get it's s#@& together, but lots of unfairness & idiocy happens with regards to immigration everyday, and not only in the US either.
posted by catfood at 1:30 PM on July 30, 2002
So you see nothing wrong with deporting a woman who has two children that were born in this country?
This has been an issue for a long time. Unfortuneately, the alternative creates an incentive for illegals to have children for the purpose of gaining citizenship. Many of these people may have wanted kids anyway, but the gov't incentive will skew their decisions away from prudent timing and concern for financial stability. And, god forbid, there might even be kids who are abandoned or murdered after the birth cert. is issued. This is not a cut and dried issue.
posted by plaino at 1:32 PM on July 30, 2002
This has been an issue for a long time. Unfortuneately, the alternative creates an incentive for illegals to have children for the purpose of gaining citizenship. Many of these people may have wanted kids anyway, but the gov't incentive will skew their decisions away from prudent timing and concern for financial stability. And, god forbid, there might even be kids who are abandoned or murdered after the birth cert. is issued. This is not a cut and dried issue.
posted by plaino at 1:32 PM on July 30, 2002
but planning for your future isn't the INS's job
By that logic, they should keep their fucking hands off and not "plan Mrs. Gilbey's future" by leaving her the hell alone, or issuing the damn green card. It takes a few weeks or months to get a passport, so why is it so difficult to get a greencard? This is where dumb laws and dumb bureuacrats get together and screw things up until enough people get hurt that the public stands up and says "enough is enough".
posted by insomnyuk at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2002
By that logic, they should keep their fucking hands off and not "plan Mrs. Gilbey's future" by leaving her the hell alone, or issuing the damn green card. It takes a few weeks or months to get a passport, so why is it so difficult to get a greencard? This is where dumb laws and dumb bureuacrats get together and screw things up until enough people get hurt that the public stands up and says "enough is enough".
posted by insomnyuk at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2002
Ok, let me defend myself ;-)
When I was writing the preview for the front page post I could swear I remembered that the date she received the letter was the 12th. Looks like some of my already disorderly and misbehaving synapses turned on me at the worst possible moment, that is when I was composing the post. Apologies. Do you accept BlueTrain?
Now back to the thread.
If she had never gone to the press for help she might have actually been deported if arrested. All this story illustrates is the abominal state of the INS and it's policies, and if it wasn't for the unthinkable Visa Express in the middle east, 911 could have possible been prevented (come on everybody, give that imagination a good stretch!).
posted by ( .)(. ) at 1:47 PM on July 30, 2002
When I was writing the preview for the front page post I could swear I remembered that the date she received the letter was the 12th. Looks like some of my already disorderly and misbehaving synapses turned on me at the worst possible moment, that is when I was composing the post. Apologies. Do you accept BlueTrain?
Now back to the thread.
If she had never gone to the press for help she might have actually been deported if arrested. All this story illustrates is the abominal state of the INS and it's policies, and if it wasn't for the unthinkable Visa Express in the middle east, 911 could have possible been prevented (come on everybody, give that imagination a good stretch!).
posted by ( .)(. ) at 1:47 PM on July 30, 2002
I apologize if I came off as harsh, Tats. I just didn't like the tone of your first article and took out my hostility on the messenger.
All this story illustrates is the abominal state of the INS and it's policies
I agree that the Visa Express needs to be investigated. However, I still fully support the INS's decision to send her a letter threatening deportation. 9/11 aside, that's SOP.
posted by BlueTrain at 2:10 PM on July 30, 2002
All this story illustrates is the abominal state of the INS and it's policies
I agree that the Visa Express needs to be investigated. However, I still fully support the INS's decision to send her a letter threatening deportation. 9/11 aside, that's SOP.
posted by BlueTrain at 2:10 PM on July 30, 2002
9/11 aside, that's SOP.
I just wanted to highlight that sentence, and the head-on collision between its two clauses. Thank you.
posted by riviera at 2:27 PM on July 30, 2002
I just wanted to highlight that sentence, and the head-on collision between its two clauses. Thank you.
posted by riviera at 2:27 PM on July 30, 2002
If you want to read other articles, I have created a Telegraph login: email address: metafilter@metafilter.com, password: metafilter.
It seems that the issue is resolved in terms of this woman in particular, and widows/widowers or people who died in the 9/11 attack in general. Part of the Patriot Act seems to cover it, but the truth seems to be that this is purely a post-facto solution: a woman in a similar situation whose husband might die in a traffic accident a month from now is still going to get deported. Maybe that's not as it should be, but if that's the case, we need to change the original law, not mandate exceptions for specific cases just because sentiment is running high.
posted by bingo at 3:18 PM on July 30, 2002
It seems that the issue is resolved in terms of this woman in particular, and widows/widowers or people who died in the 9/11 attack in general. Part of the Patriot Act seems to cover it, but the truth seems to be that this is purely a post-facto solution: a woman in a similar situation whose husband might die in a traffic accident a month from now is still going to get deported. Maybe that's not as it should be, but if that's the case, we need to change the original law, not mandate exceptions for specific cases just because sentiment is running high.
posted by bingo at 3:18 PM on July 30, 2002
I dunno, bingo, I don't have a problem with things as they are. There are already many routes of mitigation and appeal for people in that situation.
I'm skeptical of many of the particulars in this case. Gilbey was told what the law said, that much seems certain. Whether she was also given sufficient encouraging words regarding her personal circumstances seems to be a matter of debate. Examining the USA PATRIOT Act provisions regarding special circumstances for those victimized on September 11 (ss. 421-428), it would seem there is no question that she would not be covered by at least one of several exemptions, and in the most desperate case, by a temporary extension that the Attorney General himself could grant. The law explicitly says that aliens who had started a process -- green card, naturalization, etc. -- before 9/11 would be treated exactly as if the relative in question had not died. If INS folk were not telling her this, they're complete dopes bound by a bureaucratic process -- in fact, the form letters were probably sent by automated systems. We've learned a lot about those, haven't we?
I really think Gilbey has been manipulating the press and politicians to get her paperwork expedited in this matter; and to some extent she's also being used by people whose political interests are inimical to the INS. I actually don't think there's anything wrong with the former. Hell, she should fight. I'm just not sure she really needed to.
posted by dhartung at 4:49 PM on July 30, 2002
I'm skeptical of many of the particulars in this case. Gilbey was told what the law said, that much seems certain. Whether she was also given sufficient encouraging words regarding her personal circumstances seems to be a matter of debate. Examining the USA PATRIOT Act provisions regarding special circumstances for those victimized on September 11 (ss. 421-428), it would seem there is no question that she would not be covered by at least one of several exemptions, and in the most desperate case, by a temporary extension that the Attorney General himself could grant. The law explicitly says that aliens who had started a process -- green card, naturalization, etc. -- before 9/11 would be treated exactly as if the relative in question had not died. If INS folk were not telling her this, they're complete dopes bound by a bureaucratic process -- in fact, the form letters were probably sent by automated systems. We've learned a lot about those, haven't we?
I really think Gilbey has been manipulating the press and politicians to get her paperwork expedited in this matter; and to some extent she's also being used by people whose political interests are inimical to the INS. I actually don't think there's anything wrong with the former. Hell, she should fight. I'm just not sure she really needed to.
posted by dhartung at 4:49 PM on July 30, 2002
This is a double post.
Not so, the FPP you link is breaking the story, while on the other hand my post is updating the situation.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 5:55 PM on July 30, 2002
Not so, the FPP you link is breaking the story, while on the other hand my post is updating the situation.
posted by ( .)(. ) at 5:55 PM on July 30, 2002
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The State Department now claims to have shut the program down, but not before revealing the surreal immigration preferences of the United States government: Give them the best part of a decade and they cannot complete Paul Gilbey's green-card application, but give 'em two minutes and the word of a Saudi travel agent and they're happy to issue fast-track visas to three of Mr. Gilbey's murderers -- Salem al-Hamzi, Khalid al-Mihdar and Abdul Aziz al-Omari.
Appalling, but not surprising. The INS needs to be overhauled, now.
posted by insomnyuk at 12:51 PM on July 30, 2002