Amazon Prime: An Economy-Distorting Lie
May 30, 2021 9:30 AM Subscribe
A new antitrust case shows that Prime inflates prices across the board, using the false promise of 'free shipping' that is anything but free. An analysis of a recent antitrust case against Amazon by Big newsletter author Matt Stoller.
Free shipping is the God of online retail, so powerful that France actually banned the practice to protect its retail outlets. Free shipping is also the backbone of Prime. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos knew that the number one pain point for online buyers is shipping - one third of shoppers abandon their carts when they see shipping charges. Bezos helped invent Prime for this reason, saying the point of Prime was to use free shipping “to draw a moat around our best customers.” The goal was to get people used to buying from Amazon, knowing they wouldn’t have to worry about shipping charges. Once Amazon had control of a large chunk of online retail customers, it could then begin dictating terms of sellers who needed to reach them. ...
The high prices of overall marketplace access fees... is how Amazon generates cash from its Marketplace and retail operations. From 2014 to 2020, the amount it charges third party sellers grew from $11.75 billion to more than $80 billion. “Seller fees now account for 21% of Amazon’s total corporate revenue,” noted Racine, also pointing out that its profit margins for Marketplace sales by third party sellers are four times higher than its own retail sales. In addition, sellers are prohibited from charging for shipping from Prime members, though they are allowed to charge shipping from non-Prime members.
How do sellers handle these large fees from Amazon, and the inability to charge for shipping? Simple. They raise their prices on consumers. The resulting higher prices to consumers, paid to Amazon in fees by third party merchants, is why Amazon is able to offer ‘free shipping’ to Prime members. Prime, in other words, is basically a money laundering scheme. Amazon forces brands/sellers to bake the cost of Prime into their consumer price so it appears like Amazon offers free shipping when in reality the cost is incorporated into the consumer price.
Previously: It Made Amazon the Default (an oral history of Amazon Prime)
Free shipping is the God of online retail, so powerful that France actually banned the practice to protect its retail outlets. Free shipping is also the backbone of Prime. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos knew that the number one pain point for online buyers is shipping - one third of shoppers abandon their carts when they see shipping charges. Bezos helped invent Prime for this reason, saying the point of Prime was to use free shipping “to draw a moat around our best customers.” The goal was to get people used to buying from Amazon, knowing they wouldn’t have to worry about shipping charges. Once Amazon had control of a large chunk of online retail customers, it could then begin dictating terms of sellers who needed to reach them. ...
The high prices of overall marketplace access fees... is how Amazon generates cash from its Marketplace and retail operations. From 2014 to 2020, the amount it charges third party sellers grew from $11.75 billion to more than $80 billion. “Seller fees now account for 21% of Amazon’s total corporate revenue,” noted Racine, also pointing out that its profit margins for Marketplace sales by third party sellers are four times higher than its own retail sales. In addition, sellers are prohibited from charging for shipping from Prime members, though they are allowed to charge shipping from non-Prime members.
How do sellers handle these large fees from Amazon, and the inability to charge for shipping? Simple. They raise their prices on consumers. The resulting higher prices to consumers, paid to Amazon in fees by third party merchants, is why Amazon is able to offer ‘free shipping’ to Prime members. Prime, in other words, is basically a money laundering scheme. Amazon forces brands/sellers to bake the cost of Prime into their consumer price so it appears like Amazon offers free shipping when in reality the cost is incorporated into the consumer price.
Previously: It Made Amazon the Default (an oral history of Amazon Prime)
Duh.
But then, try buying car parts from Rock Auto and trying to optimize for shipping costs over their dozen or so warehouses, with just enough information to be confusing and make you feel like MAYBE it's possible if you just try hard enough. Some days it's worth the effort, but just as often I'll give up and go to Amazon
posted by wotsac at 9:48 AM on May 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
But then, try buying car parts from Rock Auto and trying to optimize for shipping costs over their dozen or so warehouses, with just enough information to be confusing and make you feel like MAYBE it's possible if you just try hard enough. Some days it's worth the effort, but just as often I'll give up and go to Amazon
posted by wotsac at 9:48 AM on May 30, 2021 [8 favorites]
The fact of free Prime shipping has definitely hurt my used game business. People are shocked, Shocked!, that shipping is going to be $15.05 more than the price listed...
posted by Windopaene at 9:58 AM on May 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 9:58 AM on May 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I've been moving away from selling on Amazon in part due to shipping fees, and eBay's not much better these days, though for different reasons.
Side note: one neat trick I've learned over time is that many large Marketplace sellers have completely separate storefronts. Thanks to finding them through Amazon, I now have accounts with, and have bought directly from, places like Wordery and ImportCDs.com.
posted by May Kasahara at 10:13 AM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
Side note: one neat trick I've learned over time is that many large Marketplace sellers have completely separate storefronts. Thanks to finding them through Amazon, I now have accounts with, and have bought directly from, places like Wordery and ImportCDs.com.
posted by May Kasahara at 10:13 AM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
Interesting. The implied claim that hearing aids prevent dementia makes me a bit skeptical of everything else. I don't know that it's not true; but, it's a really weird thing to include in an anti-trust article without comment or citation. The rest of it sure agrees with all of my assumptions.
posted by eotvos at 10:21 AM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by eotvos at 10:21 AM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I’ve noticed this dynamic on Reverb; often the difference in price between sellers is perfectly negated by shipping cost, but even though the total cost is the same the free shipping feels better to my lizard brain. I’ve been trying to maintain a “direct from store whenever possible” policy this year due to the myriad of ways Amazon is... Amazon but I still fail on the regular. My hope is that the tiny feeling of shame at seeing that logo will compound over time.
posted by q*ben at 10:29 AM on May 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 10:29 AM on May 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
What I like to do is to find the thing I want on Amazon (though the user reviews are more and more suspicious, Amazon is still the premier website for product reviews), dig up its part number, then throw that into Google and see if there's another website selling the same thing. This gives the added thrill of hunting thru different resellers and finding different coupon deals. I haven't bought anything off Amazon for maybe 2 years now and I love that.
I also watch Amazon Prime using a friend's login. Take that Bezos!
posted by cman at 10:51 AM on May 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
I also watch Amazon Prime using a friend's login. Take that Bezos!
posted by cman at 10:51 AM on May 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
The implied claim that hearing aids prevent dementia makes me a bit skeptical of everything else.
La la la la la! I can't hear you!
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:07 AM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
La la la la la! I can't hear you!
posted by Cardinal Fang at 11:07 AM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
i support burning amazon.com into the fucking ground
posted by glonous keming at 11:23 AM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 11:23 AM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
eotvos: https://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/features/hearing-loss-dementia
Anecdotally, a close friend's father was an airplane mechanic and had hearing loss from years of being too close to jet engines, he was forced into retirement by the sudden onset of dementia, and passed away just a few years later.
posted by aneel at 11:24 AM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Anecdotally, a close friend's father was an airplane mechanic and had hearing loss from years of being too close to jet engines, he was forced into retirement by the sudden onset of dementia, and passed away just a few years later.
posted by aneel at 11:24 AM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
I bought $1500 worth of hard drives off Amazon, signed up to Prime to avoid $300 worth of shipping charges from the US to Australia, then cancelled my Prime membership as soon as they arrived, which took about two weeks.
So I don't know whether my introductory month of Prime is now burnt, or whether I still have access to a leftover two weeks of it, or whether Prime can just be totally gamed by doing the signup and quit dance over and over indefinitely. I supposed I'll find out next time I need to ship something from the US.
If signing up to Prime again does reduce shipping charges to zero again, this time I'll try cancelling my membership as soon as the product shows as being in transit. If it doesn't, I'll cancel the order and try to buy from elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 11:46 AM on May 30, 2021
So I don't know whether my introductory month of Prime is now burnt, or whether I still have access to a leftover two weeks of it, or whether Prime can just be totally gamed by doing the signup and quit dance over and over indefinitely. I supposed I'll find out next time I need to ship something from the US.
If signing up to Prime again does reduce shipping charges to zero again, this time I'll try cancelling my membership as soon as the product shows as being in transit. If it doesn't, I'll cancel the order and try to buy from elsewhere.
posted by flabdablet at 11:46 AM on May 30, 2021
Amazon customers are only eligible for one free trial of Prime every 12 months.
posted by Lanark at 11:53 AM on May 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Lanark at 11:53 AM on May 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
fuck amazon, and i’m sure the market forces here are working as explained, but what i don’t get is that the prices paid on amazon are, in my experience, the same as i would find in store, say at target, or cheaper. I understand how amazon can distort the prices of other online sellers by more or less extorting the shipping cost, but this should then be a great opportunity for retail big box stores to win on in-store pricing, shouldn’t it? If the $10 item is really $6 + $4 for shipping, then why isn’t it $6 at the brick and mortar. (Maybe it is! But that hasn’t been my experience).
posted by dis_integration at 12:04 PM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 12:04 PM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
The place in my life I feel like this is clearest is when I was buying school supplies or art/craft supplies early in the pandemic -- low-cost, small items, that I needed for the kids' distance learning (and/or my sanity). Local retail outlets were initially not open even for curbside; from amazon you can either buy a dozen pencils for three times what they'd cost retail, or a dozen dozen pencils for about the same.
I was reminded of this today when I was looking for a spool of ribbon online, and I could get basically the same thing from JoAnn's for $2 +$2.95 shipping, or from Amazon for $5.09 + free shipping. Which means the "free shipping" adds up real quick if you need five spools of ribbon, or a bunch of small office supplies.
Frustratingly, the closest fabric store that isn't Hobby Lobby is 30 minutes away by car, which is fine when I need to buy several things, but too much gas to waste for small items. And I know this is a lot more down to changing patterns of clothing consumption and to Wal-Mart driving out local and specialty retailers, and not as much to Amazon specifically, but it's all of a piece that 20 years ago there were two (good!) fabric stores within ten minutes, and now I've got to drive half an hour away, and they're only hanging on in low-cost shopping centers that are typically pretty inconvenient. (And sewing so often involves, "shoot, I need one more spool of thread" or "ugh, I got the wrong interfacing" that needs a QUICK errand for a couple things.) On the one hand, online shopping has made it easy for me to shop from specialty embroidery retailers all over the country -- there are basically two importers in the US for one type of embroidery I like to do, and being able to buy directly from them is a real boon!
But my local needlework store is long gone, my nearest fabric store is far away, and I really have no choice but to shop online for tools and materials which are not "specialty" items -- but where is the nearest place to you that you can buy a book of assorted needles? My Target does NOT have them -- some do; my supermarket SOMETIMES does; the pharmacy sells "sewing kits" that include low-quality needles, but not books of hand needles. Most people are going to end up at Amazon, unless they're specifically committed to an individual fabric or needlework retailer with an online presence.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
I was reminded of this today when I was looking for a spool of ribbon online, and I could get basically the same thing from JoAnn's for $2 +$2.95 shipping, or from Amazon for $5.09 + free shipping. Which means the "free shipping" adds up real quick if you need five spools of ribbon, or a bunch of small office supplies.
Frustratingly, the closest fabric store that isn't Hobby Lobby is 30 minutes away by car, which is fine when I need to buy several things, but too much gas to waste for small items. And I know this is a lot more down to changing patterns of clothing consumption and to Wal-Mart driving out local and specialty retailers, and not as much to Amazon specifically, but it's all of a piece that 20 years ago there were two (good!) fabric stores within ten minutes, and now I've got to drive half an hour away, and they're only hanging on in low-cost shopping centers that are typically pretty inconvenient. (And sewing so often involves, "shoot, I need one more spool of thread" or "ugh, I got the wrong interfacing" that needs a QUICK errand for a couple things.) On the one hand, online shopping has made it easy for me to shop from specialty embroidery retailers all over the country -- there are basically two importers in the US for one type of embroidery I like to do, and being able to buy directly from them is a real boon!
But my local needlework store is long gone, my nearest fabric store is far away, and I really have no choice but to shop online for tools and materials which are not "specialty" items -- but where is the nearest place to you that you can buy a book of assorted needles? My Target does NOT have them -- some do; my supermarket SOMETIMES does; the pharmacy sells "sewing kits" that include low-quality needles, but not books of hand needles. Most people are going to end up at Amazon, unless they're specifically committed to an individual fabric or needlework retailer with an online presence.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
Didn't people in Nunavut benefit from Amazon Prime, at least briefly? They were able to buy groceries at normal prices without abnormal shipping prices. I expect Bezos found a way to cut them off.
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Bee'sWing at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
eotvos: https://www.webmd.com/healthy-aging/features/hearing-loss-dementiaFrom the paper by Dr. Lin, "In the present study, self-reported hearing aid use was not associated with a significant reduction in dementia risk, but data on other key variables (eg, type of hearing aid used, hours worn per day, number of years used, characteristics of participants choosing to use hearing aids, use of other communicative strategies, and adequacy of rehabilitation) that would affect the success of aural rehabilitation and affect any observed association were not gathered."
But, I'm 100% in favor of providing cheap (or free) hearing aids to everyone who could use them and creating policies that make that possible. And I don't have any reason to believe that hearing aids aren't helpful in this case. (They're clearly helpful for other reasons.) It just seems like a very strong and weird statement to make in the middle of an unrelated argument.
posted by eotvos at 12:15 PM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Amazon probably is using its market power, but the complaints in the main article aren't very convincing.
First, the complaint isn't really coherent. They claim both that 1. amazon's price fairness policy prevents other online retailers from succeeding because customers are overwhelmingly price sensitive 2. amazon's "monopoly" on consumer access makes it impossible to just take your business elsewhere. If 1 was true, then other retailers would have no problem undercutting them. If customers don't find other retailers (because they don't search elsewhere; they like the amazon system for reviews, search, purchasing, returns etc) then the price fairness policy doesn't have an effect.
I doubt that the headline complaint in the article, that retailers push up their prices by 30-40% elsewhere because of amazon policy, is even vaguely true. That 30-40% probably includes the shipping and fulfillment, which isn't a lot cheaper elsewhere. The website fees to sell by yourself are low, but the direct costs and payment processing adds up quickly. 50% of the market being non-amazon is enough that such a huge difference in costs would lead to stores just abandoning the amazon marketplace.
If you can (as others above recommend) use the work that goes into the marketplace to find an item and then buy it elsewhere cheaper, what keeps the marketplace alive? Instead of a percent of sales the other option is direct advertising fees, which is really charging for market access.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:29 PM on May 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
First, the complaint isn't really coherent. They claim both that 1. amazon's price fairness policy prevents other online retailers from succeeding because customers are overwhelmingly price sensitive 2. amazon's "monopoly" on consumer access makes it impossible to just take your business elsewhere. If 1 was true, then other retailers would have no problem undercutting them. If customers don't find other retailers (because they don't search elsewhere; they like the amazon system for reviews, search, purchasing, returns etc) then the price fairness policy doesn't have an effect.
I doubt that the headline complaint in the article, that retailers push up their prices by 30-40% elsewhere because of amazon policy, is even vaguely true. That 30-40% probably includes the shipping and fulfillment, which isn't a lot cheaper elsewhere. The website fees to sell by yourself are low, but the direct costs and payment processing adds up quickly. 50% of the market being non-amazon is enough that such a huge difference in costs would lead to stores just abandoning the amazon marketplace.
If you can (as others above recommend) use the work that goes into the marketplace to find an item and then buy it elsewhere cheaper, what keeps the marketplace alive? Instead of a percent of sales the other option is direct advertising fees, which is really charging for market access.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 12:29 PM on May 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
The hearing aid thing agrees with my assumptions. I assume that dementia onset would be hastened by lack of access to one of my senses. Like the "pandemic brain" there was an article on a while back, from lack of social interaction. Because then I'm not processing as much data; I'm not as mentally challenged.
posted by aniola at 12:31 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by aniola at 12:31 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I dunno, I kinda feel like it's less the attraction of "free" shipping and more the "the price I see is the price I pay".
...it's gotten to the point that if I can't get a shipping cost estimate right there on the product page, I'm probably not going to buy from your online store because I'm just going to assume it's astronomical (or else why would you hide it?). It's a late point in history to be making me fill out my entire credit card info before I can get a shipping cost, but a remarkable number of sites still try to do that.
posted by aramaic at 12:32 PM on May 30, 2021 [100 favorites]
...it's gotten to the point that if I can't get a shipping cost estimate right there on the product page, I'm probably not going to buy from your online store because I'm just going to assume it's astronomical (or else why would you hide it?). It's a late point in history to be making me fill out my entire credit card info before I can get a shipping cost, but a remarkable number of sites still try to do that.
posted by aramaic at 12:32 PM on May 30, 2021 [100 favorites]
I doubt that the headline complaint in the article, that retailers push up their prices by 30-40% elsewhere because of amazon policy, is even vaguely true.
From the Wired article (second link) in the post (emphasis mine):
The main form that this price discipline takes, according to sellers who have spoken out against Amazon either publicly or in anonymous testimony, is through manipulating access to the Buy Box—those Add to Cart and Buy Now buttons at the top right of an Amazon product listing. ...The upshot, Boyce said, is that sellers can’t lower their prices even when they’re selling on their own site or on other platforms, like Walmart.com, that don’t take as large a cut of sales or require sellers to spend as much on advertising—two costs that have increased in recent years on Amazon.
(Amazon search results tend to feature paid promotions at the top, which puts pressure on sellers to pay for ads if they want customers not to have to scroll down to see them. That appears to be a key reason why Amazon has become the third-largest digital advertising company, with more than double the ad revenue of Snap, Twitter, Roku, and Pinterest combined.)
“Because of its size and strength, and because sellers can’t keep their prices low on their own channels, Amazon is literally inflating the entire online economy,” said Boyce. “It’s insane. And any seller who tries to lower their prices is going to get their sales suppressed on Amazon within a week.”
posted by Bella Donna at 12:35 PM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
From the Wired article (second link) in the post (emphasis mine):
The main form that this price discipline takes, according to sellers who have spoken out against Amazon either publicly or in anonymous testimony, is through manipulating access to the Buy Box—those Add to Cart and Buy Now buttons at the top right of an Amazon product listing. ...The upshot, Boyce said, is that sellers can’t lower their prices even when they’re selling on their own site or on other platforms, like Walmart.com, that don’t take as large a cut of sales or require sellers to spend as much on advertising—two costs that have increased in recent years on Amazon.
(Amazon search results tend to feature paid promotions at the top, which puts pressure on sellers to pay for ads if they want customers not to have to scroll down to see them. That appears to be a key reason why Amazon has become the third-largest digital advertising company, with more than double the ad revenue of Snap, Twitter, Roku, and Pinterest combined.)
“Because of its size and strength, and because sellers can’t keep their prices low on their own channels, Amazon is literally inflating the entire online economy,” said Boyce. “It’s insane. And any seller who tries to lower their prices is going to get their sales suppressed on Amazon within a week.”
posted by Bella Donna at 12:35 PM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Also the returns policy. I know that if it arrives from Amazon and it's crap - and it increasingly may be so - then Amazon will actually take it back without too much BS. This is, to put it politely, not a universal experience for me with online retailers.
posted by jaduncan at 12:35 PM on May 30, 2021 [33 favorites]
posted by jaduncan at 12:35 PM on May 30, 2021 [33 favorites]
In related news, grocery store loyalty cards push up the prices for everybody who doesn't have one.
Ultimately this all comes down to advertising as privatized, regressive taxation.
posted by flabdablet at 12:36 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Ultimately this all comes down to advertising as privatized, regressive taxation.
posted by flabdablet at 12:36 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
A few recent Amazon experiences:
Buying a 10-speed bike chain: Amazon had one for $25 (free shipping, natch). The local specialty sports chain, in a very expensive metro, with excellent customer service, had the same exact chain for $18. Oh, but on Amazon I could buy a chain made by "ZHIQIU" (a brand whose web presence is apparently nine items, all sold on Amazon) for $16. Totally a good deal on something which, if it breaks unexpectedly, could seriously injure me.
Trying to buy ratchet straps: there are apparently over 2000 results. Can I filter by length, by width, by strength rating, by hook type? Nope. I can browse through page after page of random straps. Brand names are "Augo", "Sunferno", "Autofonder", "Fortem", "RHINO USA", "Everest", "Jaco", "ARTIPOLY", "PowerTye", "RPS Outdoors", "Bison Gear", "Partsam", "Camco", "Smartstraps", "AWELCRAFT", "SEAH", "Vulcan", "vehiclex", "Keeper", "rocket straps", "DC Cargo Mall", "XSTRAP", "STRAPINNO" (my favorite), "US Cargo Control", "Prasacco", "Stanley", "Husky", "DSV", "Cargo Buckle", "Seculok", a couple with no name at all, and of course Amazon Basics-- and these were all on the first page of results! The brand names I've searched for on Google give results that are seemingly for that one item, maybe a handful of others, and sites that purport to offer reviews but appear to be just auto-generated affiliate links. The only brands I recognize (Husky and Stanley) are the ones also available on homedepot.com (which also has useful filters), where they are ~30% cheaper, still with free shipping. I bought what I needed there, from a name-brand, at a price lower than pretty much anything on Amazon.
I did actually buy some LED garden lights on Amazon for $35. They seem to work fine. Again, the "brand" seemingly manufactures just two items, both sold only on Amazon, with no other online presence. They arrived with a note in the box offering a $10 Amazon gift card in exchange for a 5-star review-- just send an email with the review link to a gmail address-- which also worked just fine.
posted by alexei at 12:50 PM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
Buying a 10-speed bike chain: Amazon had one for $25 (free shipping, natch). The local specialty sports chain, in a very expensive metro, with excellent customer service, had the same exact chain for $18. Oh, but on Amazon I could buy a chain made by "ZHIQIU" (a brand whose web presence is apparently nine items, all sold on Amazon) for $16. Totally a good deal on something which, if it breaks unexpectedly, could seriously injure me.
Trying to buy ratchet straps: there are apparently over 2000 results. Can I filter by length, by width, by strength rating, by hook type? Nope. I can browse through page after page of random straps. Brand names are "Augo", "Sunferno", "Autofonder", "Fortem", "RHINO USA", "Everest", "Jaco", "ARTIPOLY", "PowerTye", "RPS Outdoors", "Bison Gear", "Partsam", "Camco", "Smartstraps", "AWELCRAFT", "SEAH", "Vulcan", "vehiclex", "Keeper", "rocket straps", "DC Cargo Mall", "XSTRAP", "STRAPINNO" (my favorite), "US Cargo Control", "Prasacco", "Stanley", "Husky", "DSV", "Cargo Buckle", "Seculok", a couple with no name at all, and of course Amazon Basics-- and these were all on the first page of results! The brand names I've searched for on Google give results that are seemingly for that one item, maybe a handful of others, and sites that purport to offer reviews but appear to be just auto-generated affiliate links. The only brands I recognize (Husky and Stanley) are the ones also available on homedepot.com (which also has useful filters), where they are ~30% cheaper, still with free shipping. I bought what I needed there, from a name-brand, at a price lower than pretty much anything on Amazon.
I did actually buy some LED garden lights on Amazon for $35. They seem to work fine. Again, the "brand" seemingly manufactures just two items, both sold only on Amazon, with no other online presence. They arrived with a note in the box offering a $10 Amazon gift card in exchange for a 5-star review-- just send an email with the review link to a gmail address-- which also worked just fine.
posted by alexei at 12:50 PM on May 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
The main issue with what Amazon is doing is that it (allegedly) punishes businesses that sell for less elsewhere. And it's interesting that the mechanism of punishment is "getting cut off from the Buy Box."
It sounds like Amazon can claim that they aren't really punishing anybody, that what goes in the buy box is just a marketing and UI decision and vendors are still free to make their own decisions.
It's ALSO interesting that users could make an end-run around this by just making a few more clicks, to always sift through the offers and pick the best one. Sometimes I'm doing that because I'm weighing whether to buy new or used media, or looking for a vendor that is geographically closer to me. If users did this more it would dilute the power of the monopoly scheme.
posted by anhedonic at 12:54 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
It sounds like Amazon can claim that they aren't really punishing anybody, that what goes in the buy box is just a marketing and UI decision and vendors are still free to make their own decisions.
It's ALSO interesting that users could make an end-run around this by just making a few more clicks, to always sift through the offers and pick the best one. Sometimes I'm doing that because I'm weighing whether to buy new or used media, or looking for a vendor that is geographically closer to me. If users did this more it would dilute the power of the monopoly scheme.
posted by anhedonic at 12:54 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
>It's ALSO interesting that users could make an end-run around this by just making a few more clicks, to always sift through the offers and pick the best one.
Versus the dark patterns verified against millions of customers? It's possible but unlikely.
posted by k3ninho at 1:20 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Versus the dark patterns verified against millions of customers? It's possible but unlikely.
posted by k3ninho at 1:20 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
. Free shipping is also the backbone of Prime. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos knew that the number one pain point for online buyers is shipping
I don't deny that free shipping is a big draw, but for me the biggest pain point is the checkout itself.
Having to create an account for a store I will never visit again, adding myself to yet another mailing list, typing in name/address/phone number, going into the other room to get a credit card, filling in the shipping information because the ordering process is poorly designed.
Doing all that and trusting that Jim's Pool Filters and Dingo Food is going to keep my information secure is sometimes more than I can accept.
More than once, I've decided to order something and been presented with a google form in which to enter all of my pertinent information.
And don't get me started on order forms that make you go through the entire process before they will tell you the shipping and handling fees.
If shopify or stripe or anyone-but-paypal would get together and form a coalition to standardize the ordering process, I think they'd do a lot of damage to Amazon and support smaller businesses.
Especially if it were a yes/no process where the merchant never sees your payment information.
posted by madajb at 1:50 PM on May 30, 2021 [79 favorites]
I don't deny that free shipping is a big draw, but for me the biggest pain point is the checkout itself.
Having to create an account for a store I will never visit again, adding myself to yet another mailing list, typing in name/address/phone number, going into the other room to get a credit card, filling in the shipping information because the ordering process is poorly designed.
Doing all that and trusting that Jim's Pool Filters and Dingo Food is going to keep my information secure is sometimes more than I can accept.
More than once, I've decided to order something and been presented with a google form in which to enter all of my pertinent information.
And don't get me started on order forms that make you go through the entire process before they will tell you the shipping and handling fees.
If shopify or stripe or anyone-but-paypal would get together and form a coalition to standardize the ordering process, I think they'd do a lot of damage to Amazon and support smaller businesses.
Especially if it were a yes/no process where the merchant never sees your payment information.
posted by madajb at 1:50 PM on May 30, 2021 [79 favorites]
I tried to buy a surge protector with a long cord (not even absurdly long, 9-12ft was my ideal) and found nothing over 6’ at so many places around town.
This kind of thing just keeps happening. If I want a specific thing, it absolutely seems to not exist in real life. On amazon, there were just hundreds.
I really tried. I drove to a hardware store (they had REALLY LONG outdoor ones), Target (nope) and two AV stores (really?! Not one over 6’???). So amazon won and I sadly remembered that instead of spending a few hours, I can have what I want ordered in a minute.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:54 PM on May 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
This kind of thing just keeps happening. If I want a specific thing, it absolutely seems to not exist in real life. On amazon, there were just hundreds.
I really tried. I drove to a hardware store (they had REALLY LONG outdoor ones), Target (nope) and two AV stores (really?! Not one over 6’???). So amazon won and I sadly remembered that instead of spending a few hours, I can have what I want ordered in a minute.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 2:54 PM on May 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
Bee'sWing, I don't know about Nunavut, but Prime is basically non-optional in Hawaii (especially off of Oahu). Even with their increasingly opaque rules about what they will and won't ship to PO Boxes or to the island at all, it's often functionally the only way to get things to here (Lots of places straight up won't ship, or charge overseas-type rates). I like to think that I'm actively costing them money in shipping, but, realistically, that may just be making myself feel better
posted by DebetEsse at 3:03 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by DebetEsse at 3:03 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Jeff Bezos is the most talented businessman of all time; but the minimum wage there should be at least $15 dollars or so.....basically....
posted by Broncos 1999 at 3:28 PM on May 30, 2021
posted by Broncos 1999 at 3:28 PM on May 30, 2021
If shopify or stripe or anyone-but-paypal would get together and form a coalition to standardize the ordering process, I think they'd do a lot of damage to Amazon and support smaller businesses.
I've bought lots of things from small shops which use Shopify over the last year, and the checkout process is very simple, consistent and reliable, so I don't know what's missing there.
posted by ambrosen at 3:31 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
I've bought lots of things from small shops which use Shopify over the last year, and the checkout process is very simple, consistent and reliable, so I don't know what's missing there.
posted by ambrosen at 3:31 PM on May 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Square's doing some things in that space as well.
posted by box at 3:34 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 3:34 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Jeff Bezos is the most talented businessman of all time
A lot of success these days isn't coming from talent so much as a brazen willingness to push laws to their breaking point, or to straight up break the law and challenge lawmakers to prosecute.
It's most obvious with the "disruptors" like Uber and the like who push their externalities onto their employees ("contractors") or the cities they're working in.
However, Amazon's not doing anything that "talented" or innovative. Bezos was just the one to decide to brazenly be a monopolistic presence on the Internet when its potential competitors thought that was a one-way ticket to government intervention.
Would that he were so talented and Amazon's market dominance came from just actually being better, rather than through sheer scale of exploitation.
posted by explosion at 3:42 PM on May 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
A lot of success these days isn't coming from talent so much as a brazen willingness to push laws to their breaking point, or to straight up break the law and challenge lawmakers to prosecute.
It's most obvious with the "disruptors" like Uber and the like who push their externalities onto their employees ("contractors") or the cities they're working in.
However, Amazon's not doing anything that "talented" or innovative. Bezos was just the one to decide to brazenly be a monopolistic presence on the Internet when its potential competitors thought that was a one-way ticket to government intervention.
Would that he were so talented and Amazon's market dominance came from just actually being better, rather than through sheer scale of exploitation.
posted by explosion at 3:42 PM on May 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
This is a small part of the issue but as a consumer I would rather pay a higher price for the item and get free shipping versus paying a lower price plus shipping, even if the latter option is the same total or slightly lower. It’s lower risk for me - as long as there is also free return shipping (and it’s rare for me there’s not), my risk is lower if I end up not liking the product - I’ll get all my money back and not have to pay shipping for nothing.
posted by Tandem Affinity at 4:04 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Tandem Affinity at 4:04 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
However, Amazon's not doing anything that "talented" or innovative. Bezos was just the one to decide to brazenly be a monopolistic presence on the Internet when its potential competitors thought that was a one-way ticket to government intervention.
I am absolutely *not* an Amazon fan, but I think this is more complicated than in the case of something like Uber. Under traditional terms, what sector does Amazon monopolize? They appear to have around 20% of the e-retail market. It's obviously even less for total retail. These aren't in the traditional monopoly levels of market value. Obviously they're benefitting from their size and network effects (plus early advantages like the sales tax exemption) but other competitors would have happily reached this level if they could have.
I suspect for the most part the scandal is what's legal, not what's illegal.
Different than the bastards at Uber, who basically dare municipalities to sue them.
posted by mark k at 4:15 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am absolutely *not* an Amazon fan, but I think this is more complicated than in the case of something like Uber. Under traditional terms, what sector does Amazon monopolize? They appear to have around 20% of the e-retail market. It's obviously even less for total retail. These aren't in the traditional monopoly levels of market value. Obviously they're benefitting from their size and network effects (plus early advantages like the sales tax exemption) but other competitors would have happily reached this level if they could have.
I suspect for the most part the scandal is what's legal, not what's illegal.
Different than the bastards at Uber, who basically dare municipalities to sue them.
posted by mark k at 4:15 PM on May 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Amazon gets a tax rebate rather than paying tax on its sales across Europe. It's a massive competitive advantage.
posted by biffa at 4:21 PM on May 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 4:21 PM on May 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
For those searching for musical instruments (especially guitars) and recording equipment, I've been really impressed with Sweetwater's online operation. Free shipping in the contiguous US and a little bag of candy in every package. I even got one once with a $15 cable. I have one store about 90 miles away that I do patronize (I got my dreadnought acoustic there) but there's just a lot they don't carry or can't get.
posted by Ber at 4:50 PM on May 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Ber at 4:50 PM on May 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
I am absolutely *not* an Amazon fan, but I think this is more complicated than in the case of something like Uber. Under traditional terms, what sector does Amazon monopolize? They appear to have around 20% of the e-retail market. It's obviously even less for total retail. These aren't in the traditional monopoly levels of market value. Obviously they're benefitting from their size and network effects (plus early advantages like the sales tax exemption) but other competitors would have happily reached this level if they could have.
The idea that the only way to measure if Amazon is a monopoly is to compare it to the sum total of the retail sector rather than its' role in a specific retail market like books or electronics makes the concept of a monopoly functionally impossible.
By that measure Standard Oil was never a monopoly since they never sold any other liquids, like milk or water or soda; Microsoft was never a monopoly since they never sold typewriters and barely sold video games; Walmart isn't a monopoly in a small town where it's the only store as long as there is other commerce happening somewhere in the nation.
By that measure, Amazon won't be a monopoly until every 9 year old's lemonade stand has an Amazon booth pop up next door offering XUQONF lemonade cheaper. (And in fact at that point they'd only have 50% of the lemonade market.) It's also the measure Amazon itself has used in trying to argue it has no monopoly power.
posted by Superilla at 5:22 PM on May 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
The idea that the only way to measure if Amazon is a monopoly is to compare it to the sum total of the retail sector rather than its' role in a specific retail market like books or electronics makes the concept of a monopoly functionally impossible.
By that measure Standard Oil was never a monopoly since they never sold any other liquids, like milk or water or soda; Microsoft was never a monopoly since they never sold typewriters and barely sold video games; Walmart isn't a monopoly in a small town where it's the only store as long as there is other commerce happening somewhere in the nation.
By that measure, Amazon won't be a monopoly until every 9 year old's lemonade stand has an Amazon booth pop up next door offering XUQONF lemonade cheaper. (And in fact at that point they'd only have 50% of the lemonade market.) It's also the measure Amazon itself has used in trying to argue it has no monopoly power.
posted by Superilla at 5:22 PM on May 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
Agree that having to sign up separately for individual stores and not knowing how secure my info is is a big reason I use Amazon. But I now get all of my books from local bookstores through bookshop.org. I have to pay for shipping and it costs more than Amazon, but I’m ok with that. The big draw is that it’s just as easy as Amazon. And the book covers are never torn, which happened with Amazon several times.
posted by FencingGal at 5:25 PM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 5:25 PM on May 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
I never viewed Prime as truly free, but more like Costco, where you pay upfront under the assumption that as the orders stack up, the savings will materialize, i.e., it's all about volume.
When I lived in the bay Area, I never bothered with either Prime or Costco. However, in small town Montana, I find them both worth the expense.
Amazon's policies are much more problematic than Costco's, but I wasn't really assuming I was getting anything for free.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:17 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
When I lived in the bay Area, I never bothered with either Prime or Costco. However, in small town Montana, I find them both worth the expense.
Amazon's policies are much more problematic than Costco's, but I wasn't really assuming I was getting anything for free.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:17 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm sort of on the brink of dropping Prime because I'm returning over half the stuff I buy on there. It all seems to be stuff that's marked up from AliExpress. Like I tried to buy a pair of workout leggings that weren't see-through and gave up after returning the eighth pair. Forget it, I'll buy name brand in store.
posted by Anonymous at 6:29 PM on May 30, 2021
posted by Anonymous at 6:29 PM on May 30, 2021
The idea that the only way to measure if Amazon is a monopoly is to compare it to the sum total of the retail sector rather than its' role in a specific retail market like books or electronics makes the concept of a monopoly functionally impossible.
Hmm. Well, it's not functionally impossible, because apparently I was wrong: The case DC is bringing *is* claiming 50% share in e retailing. A few other sources put it at close to that, with a ton of growth this year, so my number was way too low (partly because it was old, but it must have had other issues too.)
(I would say for broad solution to the abuses here you need to do more than just show dominance in books, as monopolizing books just means the solutions centers around that.)
posted by mark k at 6:43 PM on May 30, 2021
Hmm. Well, it's not functionally impossible, because apparently I was wrong: The case DC is bringing *is* claiming 50% share in e retailing. A few other sources put it at close to that, with a ton of growth this year, so my number was way too low (partly because it was old, but it must have had other issues too.)
(I would say for broad solution to the abuses here you need to do more than just show dominance in books, as monopolizing books just means the solutions centers around that.)
posted by mark k at 6:43 PM on May 30, 2021
Especially if it were a yes/no process where the merchant never sees your payment information.
FWIW, this is literally one of the selling points of Apple Pay -- Apple doesn't know what you bought, and the retailer has no idea what your payment info was; they each only have the information required to complete the transaction.
posted by aramaic at 6:54 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
FWIW, this is literally one of the selling points of Apple Pay -- Apple doesn't know what you bought, and the retailer has no idea what your payment info was; they each only have the information required to complete the transaction.
posted by aramaic at 6:54 PM on May 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
My biggest problem with Amazon these days is that so many of their third party sellers are practicing fraud. I only buy the most basic items there anymore because too many times, even slightly above bottom-of-the-barrel brand products have turned out to be not the item claimed, but rather cheap, low-quality alternatives in fake packaging.
I started noticing this with hair products that didn't smell right, and I contacted the actual company to ask if they'd changed their formula and they hadn't. I've noticed it with moisturizer that had the wrong texture, kitty litter that had formerly been low dust but now was making me gag with the clouds of dust that were kicked up by pouring out of the bag, and by products with misspelled labels (sometimes comically so) that I never bothered opening.
I was confused because I would only ever buy from sellers with good reviews. But often, when I would check the seller's reviews again, they had plummeted. Clearly, many "companies" are fly-by-night operations that intentionally start selling fake products after they've built up a decent number of good reviews.
Even though returns are low-hassle, they're not no hassle because I have to drive to Kohls and walk all the way to the back to drop off.
Unsurprisingly, Amazon isn't interested in even attempting to rectify this issue. Lose for the customer, lose for the honest sellers who have to compete with the turds, and win for the fraudsters and of course Amazon.
I hate having to go to separate places for everything. I hate having to be fleeced by buying hair care products at the salon to make sure they do what they're supposed to. My health doesn't allow me to lug kitty litter from the store most days, but thankfully alternatives like Chewy haven't seemed fraudulent...yet.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 7:12 PM on May 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
I started noticing this with hair products that didn't smell right, and I contacted the actual company to ask if they'd changed their formula and they hadn't. I've noticed it with moisturizer that had the wrong texture, kitty litter that had formerly been low dust but now was making me gag with the clouds of dust that were kicked up by pouring out of the bag, and by products with misspelled labels (sometimes comically so) that I never bothered opening.
I was confused because I would only ever buy from sellers with good reviews. But often, when I would check the seller's reviews again, they had plummeted. Clearly, many "companies" are fly-by-night operations that intentionally start selling fake products after they've built up a decent number of good reviews.
Even though returns are low-hassle, they're not no hassle because I have to drive to Kohls and walk all the way to the back to drop off.
Unsurprisingly, Amazon isn't interested in even attempting to rectify this issue. Lose for the customer, lose for the honest sellers who have to compete with the turds, and win for the fraudsters and of course Amazon.
I hate having to go to separate places for everything. I hate having to be fleeced by buying hair care products at the salon to make sure they do what they're supposed to. My health doesn't allow me to lug kitty litter from the store most days, but thankfully alternatives like Chewy haven't seemed fraudulent...yet.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 7:12 PM on May 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
I was confused because I would only ever buy from sellers with good reviews.
The issue has been that Amazon's warehouses consider all "same" items interchangeable. In the "Fulfilled by Amazon" system, the seller ships their product to Amazon, who keep it in their warehouses until it's bought. If another seller is selling the same item, their stock is mingled with the first seller's stock at the warehouse. If one of these sellers is sending fakes to Amazon, you as the customer have no way to avoid them when buying that item. Buying from seller A or seller B has no relationship to whether the item you receive is originally from one or the other.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:43 PM on May 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
The issue has been that Amazon's warehouses consider all "same" items interchangeable. In the "Fulfilled by Amazon" system, the seller ships their product to Amazon, who keep it in their warehouses until it's bought. If another seller is selling the same item, their stock is mingled with the first seller's stock at the warehouse. If one of these sellers is sending fakes to Amazon, you as the customer have no way to avoid them when buying that item. Buying from seller A or seller B has no relationship to whether the item you receive is originally from one or the other.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:43 PM on May 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
avoiding the "fulfilled by amazon" system, of course, cuts you off from free shipping
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:44 PM on May 30, 2021
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:44 PM on May 30, 2021
Bee'sWing, I don't know about Nunavut, but Prime is basically non-optional in Hawaii (especially off of Oahu). Even with their increasingly opaque rules about what they will and won't ship to PO Boxes or to the island at all, it's often functionally the only way to get things to here (Lots of places straight up won't ship, or charge overseas-type rates). I like to think that I'm actively costing them money in shipping, but, realistically, that may just be making myself feel bette
Same for Alaska; I literally do not know anyone without Prime. I know Amazon is not great but I also hate getting all the way through selecting a thing on a site and entering my information and whoops! They consider me international and won’t even ship here! Or (I’m looking at you, Costco) because they can’t offer me the free shipping they will offer me no shipping at all.
posted by charmedimsure at 12:25 AM on May 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
If one of these sellers is sending fakes to Amazon, you as the customer have no way to avoid them when buying that item. Buying from seller A or seller B has no relationship to whether the item you receive is originally from one or the other.
Thanks. This is good to know.
At one point during the pandemic, I couldn't find a Clorox cleaning product I wanted anywhere, so I ordered it from Amazon. It came from a third-party seller, so I was concerned it was fake. I posted this question, and after looking at the answers, I started ordering household supplies from Target (though it was a while before they had products with bleach available).
I do use Prime for streaming videos. They have a number of things I want to watch that aren't on Netflix or Hulu, and when I have to pay for them, I just think of it as being like the old days of renting videos (except they only give you two days to watch them once you start - instead of a week like the video stores did).
posted by FencingGal at 4:48 AM on May 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Thanks. This is good to know.
At one point during the pandemic, I couldn't find a Clorox cleaning product I wanted anywhere, so I ordered it from Amazon. It came from a third-party seller, so I was concerned it was fake. I posted this question, and after looking at the answers, I started ordering household supplies from Target (though it was a while before they had products with bleach available).
I do use Prime for streaming videos. They have a number of things I want to watch that aren't on Netflix or Hulu, and when I have to pay for them, I just think of it as being like the old days of renting videos (except they only give you two days to watch them once you start - instead of a week like the video stores did).
posted by FencingGal at 4:48 AM on May 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
Because I live in a well-stocked place, pre-Covid my family spent a year not ordering anything online. It worked fine although there were time trade offs and we drove some (our plans were to up the challenge via transit but...Covid.) We still had a Prime membership for streaming. Maybe we added to the bottom line.
During Covid I did order online, a bit from Amazon but mostly we tried to shop Canadian. It did cost more but we’ve found some neat places for things. (Manitobah Mukluks!)
I guess because I’m in Canada and postage is expensive (small country, large land mass! Decent wages for postal workers I hope!) I just...don’t understand why people would think their Prime fee would actually cover all the costs? I mean, I get why the predatory “you have to charge this elsewhere” pricing is an issue (and it is!) but — it seems a bit weird to know that Amazon workers are treated horribly and also expect super cheap merchandise. Same with the comment above that stores should be able to charge less - ok but they also have staff, rent, and supply management costs?
posted by warriorqueen at 4:52 AM on May 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
During Covid I did order online, a bit from Amazon but mostly we tried to shop Canadian. It did cost more but we’ve found some neat places for things. (Manitobah Mukluks!)
I guess because I’m in Canada and postage is expensive (small country, large land mass! Decent wages for postal workers I hope!) I just...don’t understand why people would think their Prime fee would actually cover all the costs? I mean, I get why the predatory “you have to charge this elsewhere” pricing is an issue (and it is!) but — it seems a bit weird to know that Amazon workers are treated horribly and also expect super cheap merchandise. Same with the comment above that stores should be able to charge less - ok but they also have staff, rent, and supply management costs?
posted by warriorqueen at 4:52 AM on May 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been trying to avoid Amazon by using a tightwad approach: I say I need Widget X, but do I really? Can I actually do without it, or can I MacGyver something I already have instead? I'm so used to being able to get anything I want online that it does me good to step back and remind myself of the days of my youth when if you couldn't get it you just had to deal.
This approach doesn't always work of course, but it works a lot, and when it does, it's In Your Face Amazon.
posted by JanetLand at 7:02 AM on May 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
This approach doesn't always work of course, but it works a lot, and when it does, it's In Your Face Amazon.
posted by JanetLand at 7:02 AM on May 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Flock of Cynthiabirds, like you, I noticed a lot of fraudulent products on Amazon, and reviews are filled with complaints about it. I rarely now buy anything from Amazon that could be a potential hazard for me or my cat. I would love to see mainstream media do some serious reporting on this topic, why hasn't that happened?
posted by nanook at 8:38 AM on May 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by nanook at 8:38 AM on May 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
Eyebrows McGee, I have a similar rant to yours. I went to Joann's a lot in the beforetimes (and sometimes Michaels), but they are terrible at online shipping. You pick out items that are IN A SPECIFIC STORE RIGHT NOW and then they sell live and in person in the store, and then your order is canceled and you don't even know why and they don't tell you. Bugger this. They just shouldn't offer online shopping at all if this is how they run it.
My favorite yarn (I don't care if you judge me, yarn snobs) is Caron Simply Soft. Comes in tons of colors, is genuinely soft, no dye lot to worry about (which is to say, if it has a dye lot, you have to buy all the yarn at once if you want to make sure it matches), and comes in at least 200-300 yards per $4 or less skein. For non-yarn people: I need about 1200 yards to make a sweater, so that's buying 4 balls for around $16 usually to do this. So during the pandemic, when I wanted more of this kind and I wasn't going shopping IRL (Joann's also had some skeevy stuff about using mask sewing as an excuse to do business as usual, sigh), I would find a 3 pack for sale, buy it on Amazon, all is well. The yarn selection there has been kind of random, but at least I've gotten what I was looking for.
Yesterday I decided I wanted to make a sweater out of teal yarn. Since I'm vaccinated, I was willing to actually drive to any store for this. However, Joann's is apparently out of ALL Caron Simply Soft throughout all of my end of the state. All of it. Everywhere. Not just the color I wanted, like all the colors. The fuck? I tried looking for a substitute at the fancy yarn store with good online inventory and found a suitable one, but they only sell that one in 200+ yards and only had 4 skeins of it, and if I have to worry about the dye lot matching, that's a problem. The problem with going to fancy yarn stores to make a big project is that they are primarily for the yarn snobs who can only afford to make socks and shawls and if you want more than a few skeins in the same color--say, 1200 yards of it--you probably can't get that without special ordering or something and that can take weeks and I know they've had plenty of issues with orders taking months to come in in the pandemic. Considered going to the other yarn stores without inventory online, but they're farther away and also unlikely to have 1200 yards in the same color.
This is the point where I said "oh bugger it" and hence why I went back to Amazon again. And for some crackassed reason they "refuse to deliver to my address" if I order 4 individual balls of yarn. Even if I ordered ONE ball of yarn. Even when I tried switching addresses. (The explanations online as to why they wouldn't....I have no idea.) All I have been able to deduce is that Amazon is refusing to sell single balls of this yarn. The ONLY way I got around this problem was ordering a 3-pack again, when this time I needed 4 balls. Could NOT order the 3 pack and then 1 more ball, noooooooooo. And the 3 pack cost the same as if I'd been able to order 4 balls. The hell? So I don't know what the hell is going on with this, but it's really weird.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:20 AM on May 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
My favorite yarn (I don't care if you judge me, yarn snobs) is Caron Simply Soft. Comes in tons of colors, is genuinely soft, no dye lot to worry about (which is to say, if it has a dye lot, you have to buy all the yarn at once if you want to make sure it matches), and comes in at least 200-300 yards per $4 or less skein. For non-yarn people: I need about 1200 yards to make a sweater, so that's buying 4 balls for around $16 usually to do this. So during the pandemic, when I wanted more of this kind and I wasn't going shopping IRL (Joann's also had some skeevy stuff about using mask sewing as an excuse to do business as usual, sigh), I would find a 3 pack for sale, buy it on Amazon, all is well. The yarn selection there has been kind of random, but at least I've gotten what I was looking for.
Yesterday I decided I wanted to make a sweater out of teal yarn. Since I'm vaccinated, I was willing to actually drive to any store for this. However, Joann's is apparently out of ALL Caron Simply Soft throughout all of my end of the state. All of it. Everywhere. Not just the color I wanted, like all the colors. The fuck? I tried looking for a substitute at the fancy yarn store with good online inventory and found a suitable one, but they only sell that one in 200+ yards and only had 4 skeins of it, and if I have to worry about the dye lot matching, that's a problem. The problem with going to fancy yarn stores to make a big project is that they are primarily for the yarn snobs who can only afford to make socks and shawls and if you want more than a few skeins in the same color--say, 1200 yards of it--you probably can't get that without special ordering or something and that can take weeks and I know they've had plenty of issues with orders taking months to come in in the pandemic. Considered going to the other yarn stores without inventory online, but they're farther away and also unlikely to have 1200 yards in the same color.
This is the point where I said "oh bugger it" and hence why I went back to Amazon again. And for some crackassed reason they "refuse to deliver to my address" if I order 4 individual balls of yarn. Even if I ordered ONE ball of yarn. Even when I tried switching addresses. (The explanations online as to why they wouldn't....I have no idea.) All I have been able to deduce is that Amazon is refusing to sell single balls of this yarn. The ONLY way I got around this problem was ordering a 3-pack again, when this time I needed 4 balls. Could NOT order the 3 pack and then 1 more ball, noooooooooo. And the 3 pack cost the same as if I'd been able to order 4 balls. The hell? So I don't know what the hell is going on with this, but it's really weird.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:20 AM on May 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
I have this naive thought that Amazon won't be Amazon forever. If I want a high or even middle quality item, I go directly to those companies. Shoes? Nike (yes, I know.) Computers? Apple (again, yes I KNOW.) Books? Powell's (ok, that one's ok.) Etc etc. For everyday items, I'm lucky enough to be in an urban area, so I pick those up a the once-locally owned Kroger outlet.
Amazon is, to me, only really good for cheap commodity items where brand/quality isn't an issue and those items are not available at the grocery. Which is virtually nothing.
Now, I'm a sample size of one - but my point is if I was Amazon, I'd be moving on from the online retail business. The smart play is to invest in logistics and AWS. Amazon runs the warehousing, fulfillment, delivery and software, but being an actual retailer is a sucker's game.
posted by elwoodwiles at 12:22 PM on May 31, 2021
Amazon is, to me, only really good for cheap commodity items where brand/quality isn't an issue and those items are not available at the grocery. Which is virtually nothing.
Now, I'm a sample size of one - but my point is if I was Amazon, I'd be moving on from the online retail business. The smart play is to invest in logistics and AWS. Amazon runs the warehousing, fulfillment, delivery and software, but being an actual retailer is a sucker's game.
posted by elwoodwiles at 12:22 PM on May 31, 2021
However, Joann's is apparently out of ALL Caron Simply Soft throughout all of my end of the state. All of it. Everywhere. Not just the color I wanted, like all the colors. The fuck?
I don’t know anything about yarn, but there are still supply chain disruptions all over my industry (art materials) due to the pandemic and the disruption to petroleum processing from the Texas freeze. And many vendors are raising prices in June and July, so it’s going to be a harsh awakening this summer/fall for a lot of creative people.
As a retailer who has been selling a lot more online because of the pandemic, I wish I knew the solution to reasonable shipping to Alaska and Hawaii. But once you’re outside the size of flat-rate USPS boxes, it gets expensive quick.
If the $10 item is really $6 + $4 for shipping, then why isn’t it $6 at the brick and mortar. (Maybe it is! But that hasn’t been my experience).
That was a pretty stupid/glib example in the article. Doing a real comparison of the overhead involved in online vs. in-person retail sales is... complex. And of course if you, as a retailer, were to really do that analysis rigorously and price things accordingly, including the real costs of shipping to one town over vs. the other side of the country vs. Alaska, Amazon is going to eat your lunch and you’ll still get emails from people asking why your shipping costs are such a rip-off. (A good rule of thumb is that someone will always accuse you of ripping them off if your price is different online vs. offline or different from other sellers, online or not.)
posted by jimw at 1:06 PM on May 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don’t know anything about yarn, but there are still supply chain disruptions all over my industry (art materials) due to the pandemic and the disruption to petroleum processing from the Texas freeze. And many vendors are raising prices in June and July, so it’s going to be a harsh awakening this summer/fall for a lot of creative people.
As a retailer who has been selling a lot more online because of the pandemic, I wish I knew the solution to reasonable shipping to Alaska and Hawaii. But once you’re outside the size of flat-rate USPS boxes, it gets expensive quick.
If the $10 item is really $6 + $4 for shipping, then why isn’t it $6 at the brick and mortar. (Maybe it is! But that hasn’t been my experience).
That was a pretty stupid/glib example in the article. Doing a real comparison of the overhead involved in online vs. in-person retail sales is... complex. And of course if you, as a retailer, were to really do that analysis rigorously and price things accordingly, including the real costs of shipping to one town over vs. the other side of the country vs. Alaska, Amazon is going to eat your lunch and you’ll still get emails from people asking why your shipping costs are such a rip-off. (A good rule of thumb is that someone will always accuse you of ripping them off if your price is different online vs. offline or different from other sellers, online or not.)
posted by jimw at 1:06 PM on May 31, 2021 [2 favorites]
I rarely now buy anything from Amazon that could be a potential hazard for me or my cat. I would love to see mainstream media do some serious reporting on this topic, why hasn't that happened?
I would love to see more stories that talked about what the structure of buying from Amazon really looks like, since it seems like many customers see the relationship as between them and Amazon, but it’s really Amazon sitting in the middle of a very complex ecosystem.
It is likely that you didn’t just buy that widget from Amazon that they had in a warehouse after the manufacturer shipped it to them, it was pulled from a warehouse stocked with that, some counterfeit widgets from a a sketchy supplier, some widgets that someone else recycled off a pallet of returned goods they bought, some that were shipped by someone into the warehouse after they worked a coupon scheme at Target, and who knows where else. All of those sellers are paying Amazon to warehouse the items, and they will just ship whatever is in the closest warehouse to you so you get two-day shipping, and they will credit the sale to whoever has set their price the lowest.
Have a problem with the widget? Amazon will take it back (or just refund it without bothering to get it back) and the seller pays for it all.
posted by jimw at 1:20 PM on May 31, 2021
I would love to see more stories that talked about what the structure of buying from Amazon really looks like, since it seems like many customers see the relationship as between them and Amazon, but it’s really Amazon sitting in the middle of a very complex ecosystem.
It is likely that you didn’t just buy that widget from Amazon that they had in a warehouse after the manufacturer shipped it to them, it was pulled from a warehouse stocked with that, some counterfeit widgets from a a sketchy supplier, some widgets that someone else recycled off a pallet of returned goods they bought, some that were shipped by someone into the warehouse after they worked a coupon scheme at Target, and who knows where else. All of those sellers are paying Amazon to warehouse the items, and they will just ship whatever is in the closest warehouse to you so you get two-day shipping, and they will credit the sale to whoever has set their price the lowest.
Have a problem with the widget? Amazon will take it back (or just refund it without bothering to get it back) and the seller pays for it all.
posted by jimw at 1:20 PM on May 31, 2021
Not all of Nunavut IIRC - but for Iqaluit, at one point in time - it was the biggest single city destination for Prime shipping in all of Canada (I was told "the world", but it was verbal and anecdotal).
When paying $12 for a jar of spaghetti sauce at the local grocery store, where that same jar would cost $2-3 "down-south", Prime was and is a lifeline.
Even with a shipping delay of 3-5 days (more I am sure during the pandemic), it was and is a deal. End of last year, they opened a pickup hub at the airport - everyone is a little relieved, as people have been constantly on edge, hoping that free shipping to Iqaluit would not be cancelled.
posted by rozcakj at 2:06 PM on May 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
When paying $12 for a jar of spaghetti sauce at the local grocery store, where that same jar would cost $2-3 "down-south", Prime was and is a lifeline.
Even with a shipping delay of 3-5 days (more I am sure during the pandemic), it was and is a deal. End of last year, they opened a pickup hub at the airport - everyone is a little relieved, as people have been constantly on edge, hoping that free shipping to Iqaluit would not be cancelled.
posted by rozcakj at 2:06 PM on May 31, 2021 [4 favorites]
Buying from seller A or seller B has no relationship to whether the item you receive is originally from one or the other.
That's with Fulfilled by Amazon. With Seller Fulfilled Prime, you get free shipping, two day delivery, and your item comes from the actual seller from whom you chose to buy it.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:40 PM on May 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
That's with Fulfilled by Amazon. With Seller Fulfilled Prime, you get free shipping, two day delivery, and your item comes from the actual seller from whom you chose to buy it.
posted by Flock of Cynthiabirds at 2:40 PM on May 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
Or, if you were any way smart you'd have seen that was the plan and got in on early Prime deals. No matter what, I've saved money. Make it a household of purchases and we all save money.
I remember paying $5 per shipping book or CD, and their savings incentive was 'ship these items together', which is what I still do for all items that aren't urgent (as a green choice).
If they were urgent, I'd be spending that money (and time) and head into the nearest city to try find it immediately.
posted by FranzKanner at 4:30 PM on May 31, 2021
I remember paying $5 per shipping book or CD, and their savings incentive was 'ship these items together', which is what I still do for all items that aren't urgent (as a green choice).
If they were urgent, I'd be spending that money (and time) and head into the nearest city to try find it immediately.
posted by FranzKanner at 4:30 PM on May 31, 2021
On the subject of fraudulent Amazon sellers:
At the beginning of the pandemic, I decided it was finally time to invest in a bidet attachment for my toilet. I was looking around on Amazon at a number of different brands, but then I started noticing a disturbing trend in the customer reviews... there were dozens of complaints from people claiming they'd been sent used bidets with pee pee and poo poo stains on them. That's pretty freakin' gross, so I ordered directly from the manufacturer's website (Luxe) -- same price as on Amazon, also with free shipping, and guaranteed UNUSED!!
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:46 PM on May 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
At the beginning of the pandemic, I decided it was finally time to invest in a bidet attachment for my toilet. I was looking around on Amazon at a number of different brands, but then I started noticing a disturbing trend in the customer reviews... there were dozens of complaints from people claiming they'd been sent used bidets with pee pee and poo poo stains on them. That's pretty freakin' gross, so I ordered directly from the manufacturer's website (Luxe) -- same price as on Amazon, also with free shipping, and guaranteed UNUSED!!
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:46 PM on May 31, 2021 [3 favorites]
"Showrooming" at Amazon and buying from the manufacturer seems poetic.
posted by clew at 6:45 PM on May 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 6:45 PM on May 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hmm. Well, it's not functionally impossible, because apparently I was wrong: The case DC is bringing *is* claiming 50% share in e retailing. A few other sources put it at close to that, with a ton of growth this year, so my number was way too low (partly because it was old, but it must have had other issues too.)
To this in perspective, here's Tim Bray, former Amzon VP with a relevant quote on 2021 Q1:
Now, I'm a sample size of one - but my point is if I was Amazon, I'd be moving on from the online retail business. The smart play is to invest in logistics and AWS. Amazon runs the warehousing, fulfillment, delivery and software, but being an actual retailer is a sucker's game.
I'm not even sure the logistics part is that valuable. Amazon retail is what the kids in online communities call "the carry." Revenue is up a ton, but their overall profit margin is 6 percent. And that's with AWS's 30 percent margins contributing about half of all profits. I'm actually kinda laughing as I type this next bit-- the right business move here seems to be shut down Amazon.com, all the warehouses and liquidate inventory tomorrow and reassign all employees possible to AWS. It would be the most epic Monkey's Paw wish ever in, the midst of a pandemic.
posted by pwnguin at 9:09 PM on May 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
To this in perspective, here's Tim Bray, former Amzon VP with a relevant quote on 2021 Q1:
Amazon’s gross revenue increased 41% year-over-year, to $108.5B. To use a technical term: HOLY SHIT!And yet it was Wal-Mart who bought jet.com for 3 billion dollars and then seemingly round-filed the entire acquisition and sent the founder in search of new work this year. It's one thing to light money on fire buying companies and shutting them down, and another thing entirely for your competition to do so for you.
Now, I'm a sample size of one - but my point is if I was Amazon, I'd be moving on from the online retail business. The smart play is to invest in logistics and AWS. Amazon runs the warehousing, fulfillment, delivery and software, but being an actual retailer is a sucker's game.
I'm not even sure the logistics part is that valuable. Amazon retail is what the kids in online communities call "the carry." Revenue is up a ton, but their overall profit margin is 6 percent. And that's with AWS's 30 percent margins contributing about half of all profits. I'm actually kinda laughing as I type this next bit-- the right business move here seems to be shut down Amazon.com, all the warehouses and liquidate inventory tomorrow and reassign all employees possible to AWS. It would be the most epic Monkey's Paw wish ever in, the midst of a pandemic.
posted by pwnguin at 9:09 PM on May 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Showrooming" at Amazon and buying from the manufacturer seems poetic.
I do use Amazon to organize lists of books I want to read, then either get them from the library or order from bookshop.org. One of my Amazon lists is even called "get from library."
And Amazon is how I found the wonderful Palouse brand of garbanzo beans and split peas, which I now order in 25-pound bags directly from the company.
posted by FencingGal at 4:06 AM on June 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
I do use Amazon to organize lists of books I want to read, then either get them from the library or order from bookshop.org. One of my Amazon lists is even called "get from library."
And Amazon is how I found the wonderful Palouse brand of garbanzo beans and split peas, which I now order in 25-pound bags directly from the company.
posted by FencingGal at 4:06 AM on June 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
My health doesn't allow me to lug kitty litter from the store most days, but thankfully alternatives like Chewy haven't seemed fraudulent...yet.
I quit buying from Chewy because the dog food and treats did not look/smell like the same quality as the same brands bought at the store. Reading around online, this is not uncommon.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:17 AM on June 1, 2021
I quit buying from Chewy because the dog food and treats did not look/smell like the same quality as the same brands bought at the store. Reading around online, this is not uncommon.
posted by LooseFilter at 7:17 AM on June 1, 2021
The only things I buy on Amazon are things I can't get in any local store, and generally spend plenty of time shopping at competitors websites. The prices are generally worse on competitors websites and others have mentioned security and shipping costs are higher. I don't even have Prime, so I pay for shipping at Amazon.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:36 AM on June 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:36 AM on June 1, 2021 [1 favorite]
Showrooming" at Amazon and buying from the manufacturer seems poetic.
That's the primary way I use it. I get ebooks there, and old stamps (I write Postcards to Voters and it's fun to have unusual stamps, and a lot of stamp shops are on there), and the occasional thing that just isn't available anywhere else for whatever reason, but mostly I look through reviews there and then buy directly from the manufacturer.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:04 PM on June 1, 2021
That's the primary way I use it. I get ebooks there, and old stamps (I write Postcards to Voters and it's fun to have unusual stamps, and a lot of stamp shops are on there), and the occasional thing that just isn't available anywhere else for whatever reason, but mostly I look through reviews there and then buy directly from the manufacturer.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:04 PM on June 1, 2021
I recently cancelled my Amazon Prime account, and began to be inundated with requests from Amazon to open a Prime Student account and claim a free six month trial. So I did. Now Amazon feebly requests that I confirm my student status every time I order something, but has yet to rescind my free trial or deny me any Prime benefits.
Not having prime is good, but having prime and not paying for it? That's fantastic.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
Not having prime is good, but having prime and not paying for it? That's fantastic.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2021 [4 favorites]
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Prime thus looks like a good deal, but only because sellers are prohibited from offering customers a better one anywhere else.
posted by eustatic at 9:44 AM on May 30, 2021 [6 favorites]