a shift from irony to sincerity
July 27, 2021 1:17 AM Subscribe
How TV Went From David Brent to Ted Lasso (NYT – non-paywalled link) – Two decades ago, TV’s most distinctive stories were defined by a tone of ironic detachment. Today, they’re more often sincere and direct. How did we get here?
The article has a bit of a flimsy premise. Ricky Gervais' humor didn't really ever resonate well with American audiences, his award show appearances were famous flops. I can't find numbers but The Office UK wasn't really a big hit in the United States and certainly nowhere near the meteoric success of the US version. If anything the UK Office was a bit of a cult hit.
The US Michael Scott is Ted Lasso. Seemingly incompetent, oblivious to everyone around him how dorky he is, yet sympathetic and somehow gets the job done. That's the Television Dad trope that's been around forever. Even Jerry on Rick and Morty is a parody of this.
But really we were in sort of a rare golden age of television: 30 Rock, The Wire, Sopranos, Parks and Recreation, The Office and the Daily Show were all required viewing and on at the same time. Outside of Ted Lasso, for live action sitcoms and dramas we don't really have any. Everything seems to be a comic book spinoff or Netflix style b-movies.
posted by geoff. at 2:36 AM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]
The US Michael Scott is Ted Lasso. Seemingly incompetent, oblivious to everyone around him how dorky he is, yet sympathetic and somehow gets the job done. That's the Television Dad trope that's been around forever. Even Jerry on Rick and Morty is a parody of this.
But really we were in sort of a rare golden age of television: 30 Rock, The Wire, Sopranos, Parks and Recreation, The Office and the Daily Show were all required viewing and on at the same time. Outside of Ted Lasso, for live action sitcoms and dramas we don't really have any. Everything seems to be a comic book spinoff or Netflix style b-movies.
posted by geoff. at 2:36 AM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]
I thought this was obvious.
Writing rooms not jam packed with straight white men.
posted by fullerine at 2:43 AM on July 27, 2021 [66 favorites]
Writing rooms not jam packed with straight white men.
posted by fullerine at 2:43 AM on July 27, 2021 [66 favorites]
Bingo, Fullerine, perhaps that is precisely why such a key insight remains unknowable for this particular writer...
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:49 AM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:49 AM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
Thank you for the post, and thank you for the non-paywalled version so I could actually read it. There are lots of those shows that I have not watched, but I have watched Ted Lasso. So I appreciated the article.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:03 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:03 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I thought this was obvious. Writing rooms not jam packed with straight white men.
Nice assumption, but here’s the writing staff.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:42 AM on July 27, 2021 [30 favorites]
Nice assumption, but here’s the writing staff.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:42 AM on July 27, 2021 [30 favorites]
In the US, at least, we are only just emerging from nearly six years of an abusive relationship, wherein the Republican Party openly tried to harm as many women, people of color, immigrants, and liberals as they could. (I mean, they are still doing that, but less openly.) We had to endure years of gaslighting -- "the President's just saying that, he doesn't mean it" -- while watching human rights abuses, treasonous embezzlement, and a literal and figurative assault on the embodiment of democracy. And on top of that, a global pandemic that cost more than ten times as many American lives as the Vietnam War in less than one-tenth the time, most of those deaths wholly preventable had the government cared even a smidge about its own people.
We could use a little sincerity and kindness right now, is what I'm saying.
posted by basalganglia at 3:57 AM on July 27, 2021 [36 favorites]
We could use a little sincerity and kindness right now, is what I'm saying.
posted by basalganglia at 3:57 AM on July 27, 2021 [36 favorites]
For what it's worth, the article addresses both the "white guy" and "trump era" thoughts if you're interested. It's asking something a bit more about how we frame stories and understand characters in the question around the article's premise.
In some cases, it’s also a question of who has gotten to make TV since 2001. Antiheroes like David Brent and Tony Soprano, after all, came along after white guys like them had centuries to be heroes. The voices and faces of the medium have diversified, and if you’re telling the stories of people and communities that TV never made room for before, skewering might not be your first choice of tone. I don’t want to oversimplify this: Series like “Atlanta,” “Ramy,” “Master of None” and “Insecure” all have complex stances toward their protagonists. But they also have more sympathy toward them than, say, “Arrested Development.”
Beyond TV, we’ve just been through several years of a political troll war, with hate and vitriol laundered through winking memes and an antihero-styled president who excused his wishes for election interference and an unconstitutional third term as “jokes,” as if his own presidency were a performance he could distance himself from by saying he was playing a character. With the “Joker” era of the presidency given way to one focused on empathy and catharsis, sincerity may be a better cultural fit for now.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:36 AM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
In some cases, it’s also a question of who has gotten to make TV since 2001. Antiheroes like David Brent and Tony Soprano, after all, came along after white guys like them had centuries to be heroes. The voices and faces of the medium have diversified, and if you’re telling the stories of people and communities that TV never made room for before, skewering might not be your first choice of tone. I don’t want to oversimplify this: Series like “Atlanta,” “Ramy,” “Master of None” and “Insecure” all have complex stances toward their protagonists. But they also have more sympathy toward them than, say, “Arrested Development.”
Beyond TV, we’ve just been through several years of a political troll war, with hate and vitriol laundered through winking memes and an antihero-styled president who excused his wishes for election interference and an unconstitutional third term as “jokes,” as if his own presidency were a performance he could distance himself from by saying he was playing a character. With the “Joker” era of the presidency given way to one focused on empathy and catharsis, sincerity may be a better cultural fit for now.
posted by gusottertrout at 4:36 AM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
In order to fix something, you kind of have to begin from a place of sincerity.
posted by firstdaffodils at 4:38 AM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by firstdaffodils at 4:38 AM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
We had all manner of "sincere" TV in the '90s and earlier; it was called "everything on TV."
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:54 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:54 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
We had all manner of "sincere" TV in the '90s and earlier; it was called "everything on TV."
Ok, but the pre-90s weren't generally considered to be a great era for television, so from that perspective, it marks something of a regression, if one holds the shows of today as being of like sincerity as that earlier era, so that seems worth thinking about too. And if there are differences, which seems likely, then noting those is also important.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:13 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ok, but the pre-90s weren't generally considered to be a great era for television, so from that perspective, it marks something of a regression, if one holds the shows of today as being of like sincerity as that earlier era, so that seems worth thinking about too. And if there are differences, which seems likely, then noting those is also important.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:13 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
My early-Millennial friends have been saying for a decade or more that "sincerity is the new irony" -- we feel burned out of the ironic detachment that we inherited in the culture of our cool late-Gen-X older siblings and then further cultivated ourselves through post-college life and our variously successful attempts at art and media careers. There is a craving in my (urban, largely but not entirely White, variable-socioeconomic-class) circles for something to fight *for* and not *against*, and I have noticed a lot of positivity toward Gen Z culture on these grounds despite all the media efforts to frame us up for another generational war.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:31 AM on July 27, 2021 [40 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 5:31 AM on July 27, 2021 [40 favorites]
Nice assumption, but here’s the writing staff.
That is a very incomplete picture.
Quoting myself from a previous Ted Lasso thread:
That is a very incomplete picture.
Quoting myself from a previous Ted Lasso thread:
2 of the 10 season 1 episodes were directed by MJ Delaney. 4 of the episodes were written by women: Jane Becker, Jamie Lee, Leann Bowen (a woman of color with "FTP:ACAB — ABOLISH ICE" in her Twitter profile), and Phoebe Walsh.posted by jedicus at 5:37 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
A show that sign-posts a big showdown about the fundamental lie one of the characters keeps from the main character, but then just resolves it with an "aw shucks, don't worry yourself about it" doesn't feel sincere to me. When David Brent is not on screen the rest of the characters of the UK office are achingly sincere by contrast.
posted by Space Coyote at 5:43 AM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 5:43 AM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
Previous generations of sincere TV: "Touched by an Angel," say, had a strong whiff of naivete. Like, the world is not really that complicated, you just have to be good. The same sort of attitude that gave rise to "Just say no to drugs." Sophisticated people rightly rejected this attitude as overly simplistic. And yes, for a lot of us that meant a period of ironic detachment culturally.
I haven't seen Ted Lasso, but my impression is that the new artistic sincerity runs deeper, that it acknowleges that the world is complicated, not simple (I felt that way about Master of None, for instance). I do like having a protagonist I can root for. It gets very wearying to watch Don Draper and Pete Campbell just be awful week after week, even if they are building a rich and compelling world.
My favorite current show, The Expanse, has a character, Jim Holden, who holds that "the world is not that complicated, you just have to do good" while all around him the show is proving him wrong. It's a little bit sad and funny, but the rest of his crew is sincerely trying to do good while recognizing that the world around them really is that complicated.
posted by rikschell at 5:56 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
I haven't seen Ted Lasso, but my impression is that the new artistic sincerity runs deeper, that it acknowleges that the world is complicated, not simple (I felt that way about Master of None, for instance). I do like having a protagonist I can root for. It gets very wearying to watch Don Draper and Pete Campbell just be awful week after week, even if they are building a rich and compelling world.
My favorite current show, The Expanse, has a character, Jim Holden, who holds that "the world is not that complicated, you just have to do good" while all around him the show is proving him wrong. It's a little bit sad and funny, but the rest of his crew is sincerely trying to do good while recognizing that the world around them really is that complicated.
posted by rikschell at 5:56 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Ashley Nicole Black, who is a comic genius, joined the Ted Lasso writing staff this year too.
posted by gladly at 6:22 AM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by gladly at 6:22 AM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
This article is perplexingly absent the comedies of Mike Schur. I feel like one major turning point in all this was literally between Season One and Season Two of "Parks and Rec." Ted Lasso is sweeter and certainly less complicated that "The Good Place," but Schur really nailed the whole "absolutely flawed humans sincerely trying (and sometimes failing) to be better, kinder humans, despite the all the setbacks and odds" model. And I'm not sure if you go from "Arrested Development" to "Ted Lasso" without a decade+ of Schur in between.
posted by thivaia at 6:32 AM on July 27, 2021 [60 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 6:32 AM on July 27, 2021 [60 favorites]
A show that sign-posts a big showdown about the fundamental lie one of the characters keeps from the main character, but then just resolves it with an "aw shucks, don't worry yourself about it" doesn't feel sincere to me.
It may not have been handled in the most artful manner, but having the main victim of the lie take in the perpetrator’s clear regret, and then forgive her, despite the pain and humiliation it clearly caused was one of the most astounding things I’ve seen on television in years. And it seemed clear that the characters didn’t forget about the betrayal, just because it was forgiven. I think that demonstrates a pretty brash sincerity, actually. It’s a character living up to his own ideals, even when that’s not easy.
posted by heyitsgogi at 6:41 AM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
It may not have been handled in the most artful manner, but having the main victim of the lie take in the perpetrator’s clear regret, and then forgive her, despite the pain and humiliation it clearly caused was one of the most astounding things I’ve seen on television in years. And it seemed clear that the characters didn’t forget about the betrayal, just because it was forgiven. I think that demonstrates a pretty brash sincerity, actually. It’s a character living up to his own ideals, even when that’s not easy.
posted by heyitsgogi at 6:41 AM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
Outside of Ted Lasso, for live action sitcoms and dramas we don't really have any. Everything seems to be a comic book spinoff or Netflix style b-movies.
Ehh I mean, is this really a case of "tv now is bad" or is it "the way we watch TV is different now, nobody watches television in real time anymore"? Because I can think of at least 5 shows I watched over the course of the pandemic that fit at least to some degree the profile of Sincere Television that are in fact really, really good, and fairly popular, but they are kind of squirreled away within Hulu or Amazon or whatnot.
(Or maybe I've misread you and that's the argument you're making, that we are lacking in the kind of unifying, everyone-watches-and-talks-about-it-at-work TV experience.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:43 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Ehh I mean, is this really a case of "tv now is bad" or is it "the way we watch TV is different now, nobody watches television in real time anymore"? Because I can think of at least 5 shows I watched over the course of the pandemic that fit at least to some degree the profile of Sincere Television that are in fact really, really good, and fairly popular, but they are kind of squirreled away within Hulu or Amazon or whatnot.
(Or maybe I've misread you and that's the argument you're making, that we are lacking in the kind of unifying, everyone-watches-and-talks-about-it-at-work TV experience.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:43 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I think it's a lot simpler. You can only go so far doing retreads of 20 year old shows, that are often in syndication on over the air tv and streaming services, and as familiar as an old shoe. You gotta rework the formula constantly to get the most eyes to stick around for the commercials. This age of sincerity and directness is going to be pretty tired in 20 years, too.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:44 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
posted by 2N2222 at 6:44 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
I don't think this writer really understands some of the shows they mention. At the very least, Gervais' Brent is fundamentally alone and wants desperately to be loved. The comedy comes from his painful, if earnest attempts to get others to appreciate him. He is a superstar (albeit only in his mind) who is trapped in a paper company in Slough. It isn't a show trying to get laughs through irony, but through tragedy and pathos.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:49 AM on July 27, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:49 AM on July 27, 2021 [12 favorites]
burnout with cringe comedies and antihero stories
I didn't know anyone else felt as I do about those things, thank you.
posted by hypnogogue at 6:52 AM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
I didn't know anyone else felt as I do about those things, thank you.
posted by hypnogogue at 6:52 AM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
I don't think this writer really understands some of the shows they mention. At the very least, Gervais' Brent is fundamentally alone and wants desperately to be loved
I don't see a misunderstanding so much as a different focus. The author even calls the Office as sentimental and maudlin and about kindness and empathy. But their overall "irony" point is about the tone of the shows rather than individual character analysis.
posted by mark k at 7:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I don't see a misunderstanding so much as a different focus. The author even calls the Office as sentimental and maudlin and about kindness and empathy. But their overall "irony" point is about the tone of the shows rather than individual character analysis.
posted by mark k at 7:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I should note that most of the shows the author mentioned, and ones I mentioned were the first in the era of HD. They were certainly not the very first in HD, but it shouldn't be understated how big an upgrade HD was. Sopranos was the first sitcom HBO aired in HD starting in season three. The Wire famously was not but many shows tended to chew up the television with all that HD offered. 30 Rock comes to mind as having complex visuals. And lets not forget about Deadwood.
(Or maybe I've misread you and that's the argument you're making, that we are lacking in the kind of unifying, everyone-watches-and-talks-about-it-at-work TV experience.)
A bit of both, the most talked about shows outside of Ted Lasso's surprising success (early reviews were very mixed and some very negative) seem to be Mandalorian and WandaVision, the experience of talking about last night's Sopranos certainly isn't there. It is the balkanization of television watching coupled with the binge nature of shows. I agree that "all television is bad" is generally lazy and we tend to lionize the past, but there's ebbs and flows where we get good television and bad television.
The forerunner to all these comedy shows is The Larry Sanders Show in my opinion. Narcissistic and oblivious without having to resort to the cringe factor. It even had a proto version of the faux documentary style with the show on film and the writer's room using handheld cameras. But this was largely forgotten or not talked about in the same breath. Maybe we just all collectively forgot about Gen X's ability to produce things? Though it felt like it was attempting to bridge the gap from Carson-era old boys club to something more modern. Completely personified by Jeffrey Tambor and Rip Torn contrasting with Janeane Garofalo and Penny Johnson.
posted by geoff. at 7:05 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
(Or maybe I've misread you and that's the argument you're making, that we are lacking in the kind of unifying, everyone-watches-and-talks-about-it-at-work TV experience.)
A bit of both, the most talked about shows outside of Ted Lasso's surprising success (early reviews were very mixed and some very negative) seem to be Mandalorian and WandaVision, the experience of talking about last night's Sopranos certainly isn't there. It is the balkanization of television watching coupled with the binge nature of shows. I agree that "all television is bad" is generally lazy and we tend to lionize the past, but there's ebbs and flows where we get good television and bad television.
The forerunner to all these comedy shows is The Larry Sanders Show in my opinion. Narcissistic and oblivious without having to resort to the cringe factor. It even had a proto version of the faux documentary style with the show on film and the writer's room using handheld cameras. But this was largely forgotten or not talked about in the same breath. Maybe we just all collectively forgot about Gen X's ability to produce things? Though it felt like it was attempting to bridge the gap from Carson-era old boys club to something more modern. Completely personified by Jeffrey Tambor and Rip Torn contrasting with Janeane Garofalo and Penny Johnson.
posted by geoff. at 7:05 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Perhaps a good non-TV parallel for the main character in The Office is Max Fischer in Rushmore. A main character also earnest and sincere, and so focused on his own greatness that he is blind to the damage and pain he causes around him. Just like David Brent, Max doesn't really have any kind of epiphany about it, until at the end.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:05 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:05 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
My favorite current show, The Expanse, has a character, Jim Holden, who holds that "the world is not that complicated, you just have to do good" while all around him the show is proving him wrong. It's a little bit sad and funny, but the rest of his crew is sincerely trying to do good while recognizing that the world around them really is that complicated.
That's probably the best description of Holden I've read.
I thought originally that Amos was going to be the Jayne Cobb of the show, but instead he turned out to be the most interesting character in the series. Jayne is naive, simple and amoral; Amos is jaded, complex, and even moral and generous in his unique way, and very sincere.
posted by Foosnark at 7:17 AM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
That's probably the best description of Holden I've read.
I thought originally that Amos was going to be the Jayne Cobb of the show, but instead he turned out to be the most interesting character in the series. Jayne is naive, simple and amoral; Amos is jaded, complex, and even moral and generous in his unique way, and very sincere.
posted by Foosnark at 7:17 AM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'll believe the dominant tone of TV has changed only after some major network offers a neo-noir crime series with a lead detective who isn't a deeply damaged mess.
posted by PhineasGage at 7:19 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 7:19 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
They could redo Columbo. He seemed pretty normal. Except for the eye thing.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:23 AM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:23 AM on July 27, 2021 [9 favorites]
For a peculiarly unsettling mix of irony and sincerity (and I mean that in a generally good way), I'll put in a plug for Enlightened. I hesitate a bit because oh geez does it play up a lot of stereotypes in problematic ways... but somehow the sincerity seems to win through, just like the main character goes from totally lacking self-awareness to having genuine humility and trying to do real good. (It also stars Laura Dern acting with her mother, Diane Ladd, as her character's mother, so there's that)
posted by treepour at 7:25 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by treepour at 7:25 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
I thought this was obvious.
Writing rooms not jam packed with straight white men.
fullerine
But this doesn't answer the question posed by the article of "How did we get from the dominant mode of ironic detachment 20 years ago to sincerity and directness today?" There's some weird assumptions in this reply, along the lines of "of course our company culture is more caring and understanding, we've hired more women".
If we accept the article's premises as true regarding the dominant modes of TV now and 20 years ago, then why does having more diverse writing rooms lead to the current mode? Do non-straight, non-white, non-male writers not like or not do ironic detachment? Do straight white male writers not like sincere directness? But that era of TV in the 2000s was itself a distinctive period and mode that wasn't true in, say, the 70s or 80s, which were also periods where writing rooms were jam packed with straight white men. There certainly have been earlier eras of TV where sincerity reigned supreme. So why the shift again now?
I think 2N2222 is right: this is simply a natural cycle of the current generation of writers reacting against what they grew up with. Something similar happened in the 90s, in fact, when harsher, more ironic shows like Seinfeld or The Simpsons arose in reaction to the sincere schmaltz of 80s TV like The Cosby Show or Full House. The kids today who will grow up to write TV shows in 20 years (if such things still exist) will probably swing back towards irony and cynicism and there will be think pieces pondering the meaning of this refreshing new turn.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:37 AM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]
Writing rooms not jam packed with straight white men.
fullerine
But this doesn't answer the question posed by the article of "How did we get from the dominant mode of ironic detachment 20 years ago to sincerity and directness today?" There's some weird assumptions in this reply, along the lines of "of course our company culture is more caring and understanding, we've hired more women".
If we accept the article's premises as true regarding the dominant modes of TV now and 20 years ago, then why does having more diverse writing rooms lead to the current mode? Do non-straight, non-white, non-male writers not like or not do ironic detachment? Do straight white male writers not like sincere directness? But that era of TV in the 2000s was itself a distinctive period and mode that wasn't true in, say, the 70s or 80s, which were also periods where writing rooms were jam packed with straight white men. There certainly have been earlier eras of TV where sincerity reigned supreme. So why the shift again now?
I think 2N2222 is right: this is simply a natural cycle of the current generation of writers reacting against what they grew up with. Something similar happened in the 90s, in fact, when harsher, more ironic shows like Seinfeld or The Simpsons arose in reaction to the sincere schmaltz of 80s TV like The Cosby Show or Full House. The kids today who will grow up to write TV shows in 20 years (if such things still exist) will probably swing back towards irony and cynicism and there will be think pieces pondering the meaning of this refreshing new turn.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:37 AM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]
Can someone who knows more about television put this in a longer context? Like... what came before the syrupy sitcoms that Letterman and Seinfeld were reacting against? And what came before that? Is there any long term rhythm to this?
posted by clawsoon at 7:44 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 7:44 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
A bit of both, the most talked about shows outside of Ted Lasso's surprising success (early reviews were very mixed and some very negative) seem to be Mandalorian and WandaVision
Can't speak to Mandalorian, but I would hesitate to tag WandaVision with a broad, "this is just a dumb comic book show" kind of brush. WandaVision and Loki aren't perfect shows by any stretch but I have noticed them using the serial tv format to really dig into character and emotion in a way the films don't. In my opinion those shows are head-and-shoulders above any of the movies in terms of their emotional resonance.
I also definitely agree with the above argument that this current crop of more sincere shows (the Schur-verse included) is managing to skirt outright schmaltz without going full-bore ironic detachment. Not that every episode of every series succeeds brilliantly, but the sincerity level overall is grounded in the real world. I feel like Hacks might be the best example of a show that is legitimately sincerely affecting while still casting a critical, snarky eye at ideas and people that deserve it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:54 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Can't speak to Mandalorian, but I would hesitate to tag WandaVision with a broad, "this is just a dumb comic book show" kind of brush. WandaVision and Loki aren't perfect shows by any stretch but I have noticed them using the serial tv format to really dig into character and emotion in a way the films don't. In my opinion those shows are head-and-shoulders above any of the movies in terms of their emotional resonance.
I also definitely agree with the above argument that this current crop of more sincere shows (the Schur-verse included) is managing to skirt outright schmaltz without going full-bore ironic detachment. Not that every episode of every series succeeds brilliantly, but the sincerity level overall is grounded in the real world. I feel like Hacks might be the best example of a show that is legitimately sincerely affecting while still casting a critical, snarky eye at ideas and people that deserve it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:54 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
My early-Millennial friends have been saying for a decade or more that "sincerity is the new irony" -- we feel burned out of the ironic detachment that we inherited in the culture of our cool late-Gen-X older siblings and then further cultivated ourselves through post-college life and our variously successful attempts at art and media careers.
Echoing this. I'm not sure exactly when it started, but as a theater-oriented person I definitely felt like it was undeniable by the time Hamilton came around.
posted by Expecto Cilantro at 8:00 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Echoing this. I'm not sure exactly when it started, but as a theater-oriented person I definitely felt like it was undeniable by the time Hamilton came around.
posted by Expecto Cilantro at 8:00 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
How did we get here?
I am seemingly out of touch with broadcast tv; I had never even heard of Ted Lasso until just now. My immediate reaction, then, to the quest above is, “This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife.”
As for the heavily ironic things in the wake of The Office, while I grant that The Larry Sanders Show prefigured the single-camera, laugh-track-free comedy boom by a decade, I remain an evangelist for the Australian show The Games (which follows the difficulties faced by an organizing committee for the Sydney Olympics). I only ever learned of it by happenstance because CBC stuck it in some weird 10:30 PM Wednesday slot in the summer before the Sydney games, but I thought it fantastic. John Clarke, the co-writer and star, observed once that it was filmed as a documentary, scripted as a satire, and acted as a drama, which is absolutely a winning combination as it turns out.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:17 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am seemingly out of touch with broadcast tv; I had never even heard of Ted Lasso until just now. My immediate reaction, then, to the quest above is, “This is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife.”
As for the heavily ironic things in the wake of The Office, while I grant that The Larry Sanders Show prefigured the single-camera, laugh-track-free comedy boom by a decade, I remain an evangelist for the Australian show The Games (which follows the difficulties faced by an organizing committee for the Sydney Olympics). I only ever learned of it by happenstance because CBC stuck it in some weird 10:30 PM Wednesday slot in the summer before the Sydney games, but I thought it fantastic. John Clarke, the co-writer and star, observed once that it was filmed as a documentary, scripted as a satire, and acted as a drama, which is absolutely a winning combination as it turns out.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:17 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
The US Michael Scott is Ted Lasso. Seemingly incompetent, oblivious to everyone around him how dorky he is, yet sympathetic and somehow gets the job done. That's the Television Dad trope that's been around forever. Even Jerry on Rick and Morty is a parody of this.
I really disagree with this. They share a lot of elements, sure, but Ted Lasso isn't at all oblivious to how everyone around him thinks of him. His whole speech in the dart throwing scene was him explaining exactly that. Ted is actually very competent and is confident in his ability and he's also just very comfortable being the goofy dork that he is and simply does not care that other people are more self conscious. He doesn't think everyone else should be like him, but he does every should be free to be themselves which, as I write this, really strikes me a central theme of the show.
Michael Scott is very competent at managing the overall moral of his office (at least in the later seasons after they give him a better haircut and make him more sympathetic) but completely incompetent at everything else and most of the time things get done despite Michael's antics, not because of them.
But people often think Ted Lasso is like Michael Scott and he takes advantage of people underestimating him.
posted by VTX at 8:21 AM on July 27, 2021 [18 favorites]
I really disagree with this. They share a lot of elements, sure, but Ted Lasso isn't at all oblivious to how everyone around him thinks of him. His whole speech in the dart throwing scene was him explaining exactly that. Ted is actually very competent and is confident in his ability and he's also just very comfortable being the goofy dork that he is and simply does not care that other people are more self conscious. He doesn't think everyone else should be like him, but he does every should be free to be themselves which, as I write this, really strikes me a central theme of the show.
Michael Scott is very competent at managing the overall moral of his office (at least in the later seasons after they give him a better haircut and make him more sympathetic) but completely incompetent at everything else and most of the time things get done despite Michael's antics, not because of them.
But people often think Ted Lasso is like Michael Scott and he takes advantage of people underestimating him.
posted by VTX at 8:21 AM on July 27, 2021 [18 favorites]
FWIW I've got a producer friend in LA who lost the show they were working on due to COVID (and other things, but mostly COVID) and they said every new pitch meeting for the last six months has been execs saying "Can you give us another Ted Lasso?"
posted by O Time, Thy Pyramids at 8:24 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by O Time, Thy Pyramids at 8:24 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am seemingly out of touch with broadcast tv; I had never even heard of Ted Lasso until just now
Ted Lasso is not broadcast, it’s delivered over the Internet on the paid (not free like broadcast TV) subscription service Apple TV+.
posted by Monochrome at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Ted Lasso is not broadcast, it’s delivered over the Internet on the paid (not free like broadcast TV) subscription service Apple TV+.
posted by Monochrome at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
Irony dies at the beginning of every decade - or at least the declaration of its death pops up when it's time comes on some journalists schedule.
Here's an article from the Atlantic from 2011 tracing the death of irony that was declared after 911.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
Here's an article from the Atlantic from 2011 tracing the death of irony that was declared after 911.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
As wotsac and thatwhichfalls point out, this same debate happens every decade. Here’s a more historically-oriented article from about a decade ago about the version of the debate that was happening then, and the one from about a decade before. It’s not just focused on TV but on the broader media landscape that the OP is using TV to stand in for. At any given time you can cherry-pick enough enough ‘sincere’ things and ‘ironic’ things to make the argument that we are entering some kind of new era. A decade ago it was Wes Anderson and folk music that were supposed to be ushering it in.
posted by demonic winged headgear at 8:30 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by demonic winged headgear at 8:30 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
O Time, Thy Pyramids: and they said every new pitch meeting for the last six months has been execs saying "Can you give us another Ted Lasso?"
And thus is the seed planted for the anti-sincerity backlash which will bloom a decade from now...
posted by clawsoon at 8:36 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
And thus is the seed planted for the anti-sincerity backlash which will bloom a decade from now...
posted by clawsoon at 8:36 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Here's an article from the Atlantic from 2011 tracing the death of irony that was declared after 911.
And I know he's cancelled or whatever, but I remember David Foster Wallace talking in the 90s about a trend he saw where real, brave artists were eschewing irony for sincerity, and how this was kind of ground-breaking for gen x. Pretty sure I read a thing from Dave Eggers in The Believer around the same time all about how snark was keeping people from being able to participate in artistic acts, both creation and consumption.
I remember talking with a friend about it and she admitted the entire concept of approaching a piece of art without any ironic baggage attached seemed as impossible to her as levitating.
posted by nushustu at 8:39 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
And I know he's cancelled or whatever, but I remember David Foster Wallace talking in the 90s about a trend he saw where real, brave artists were eschewing irony for sincerity, and how this was kind of ground-breaking for gen x. Pretty sure I read a thing from Dave Eggers in The Believer around the same time all about how snark was keeping people from being able to participate in artistic acts, both creation and consumption.
I remember talking with a friend about it and she admitted the entire concept of approaching a piece of art without any ironic baggage attached seemed as impossible to her as levitating.
posted by nushustu at 8:39 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
And thus is the seed planted for the anti-sincerity backlash which will bloom a decade from now...
I'll bite. Is it really a sincerity backlash when the TV executives are only sincere insofar as they want to make money, and they're asking for another Ted Lasso because it's popular, not because of what kind of television it is? Because the backlash against "sincerity" in media has basically always been around the fact that media can't be sincere when it is only interested in profit. In other words can you really call it backlash when it's usually that the times have changed but TV hasn't and what used to be sincere no longer seems sincere.
See: The Simpsons being an average middle class family but in the modern world their lifestyle is basically completely out of reach for adults of roughly the same assumed age of Homer and Marge Simpson. What initially seemed sincere (At the time of conception, the Simpsons' home was actually relatively humble) now seems insincere, not because the original changed but because the world changed and the media stayed the same making the media seem less sincere over time.
Culture changes, so do our standards for "sincerity" and "irony."
Would Ted Lasso still seem sincere 30 seasons later?
posted by deadaluspark at 8:45 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I'll bite. Is it really a sincerity backlash when the TV executives are only sincere insofar as they want to make money, and they're asking for another Ted Lasso because it's popular, not because of what kind of television it is? Because the backlash against "sincerity" in media has basically always been around the fact that media can't be sincere when it is only interested in profit. In other words can you really call it backlash when it's usually that the times have changed but TV hasn't and what used to be sincere no longer seems sincere.
See: The Simpsons being an average middle class family but in the modern world their lifestyle is basically completely out of reach for adults of roughly the same assumed age of Homer and Marge Simpson. What initially seemed sincere (At the time of conception, the Simpsons' home was actually relatively humble) now seems insincere, not because the original changed but because the world changed and the media stayed the same making the media seem less sincere over time.
Culture changes, so do our standards for "sincerity" and "irony."
Would Ted Lasso still seem sincere 30 seasons later?
posted by deadaluspark at 8:45 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Like... what came before the syrupy sitcoms that Letterman and Seinfeld were reacting against? And what came before that? Is there any long term rhythm to this?
They were reacting against the late 1980s and early 1990s, which were extremely sincere and wholesome. ABC had an entire Friday night of family comedies where troubles were experienced and a helpful adult (or a few) helped get through them. The sincerity was actually fine - the comedy beats were really repetitive - everyone had a catchphrase, and since so many children were featured in the context of loving families the subject matter wasn't very deep.
What initially seemed sincere (At the time of conception, the Simpsons' home was actually relatively humble) now seems insincere,
Not sure about this -back then, living in a 2 story house with a basement (3 stories!) with a giant front and back yard was upper middle class signifiers, and the money problems [like struggling to buy Christmas presents] seemed more like financial ineptness than some version of lower middle class solidarity.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
They were reacting against the late 1980s and early 1990s, which were extremely sincere and wholesome. ABC had an entire Friday night of family comedies where troubles were experienced and a helpful adult (or a few) helped get through them. The sincerity was actually fine - the comedy beats were really repetitive - everyone had a catchphrase, and since so many children were featured in the context of loving families the subject matter wasn't very deep.
What initially seemed sincere (At the time of conception, the Simpsons' home was actually relatively humble) now seems insincere,
Not sure about this -back then, living in a 2 story house with a basement (3 stories!) with a giant front and back yard was upper middle class signifiers, and the money problems [like struggling to buy Christmas presents] seemed more like financial ineptness than some version of lower middle class solidarity.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Oh and Glee! Glee was supposed to start the New Sincerity.
posted by demonic winged headgear at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by demonic winged headgear at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
I don't know; certainly I agree there are cycles to this, but also I think there's something to the idea that this particular correction towards sincerity is driven by the internet. I think the author is not sufficiently online enough to work out what it is, and so blames Twitter. I, however, badly need to log off, and so I recognise that the author seems to be grasping for irony poisoning, where you ironically detach from your ironic detachment and it's no longer clear what the underlying point is - for instance, when 4chan ironically decided to embrace My Little Pony. Some people on 4chan realised that you could use irony poisoning to advocate for fascism and white supremacy, which was a handy dodge because they could claim when challenged that this was just a joke you didn't get.
Irony became a lot less fun at that point.
Pretty sure I read a thing from Dave Eggers in The Believer around the same time all about how snark was keeping people from being able to participate in artistic acts, both creation and consumption.
There is a famous piece, On Smarm, that challenges Eggers on this specific front; irony poisoning might be the point where the ironic mode has gone too far and needs to be attacked with sincerity, but smarm - the assumption of sincerity and inclusion as an empty gesture, without any genuine truth, warmth or insight, is probably the point where sincerity goes too far and needs to be attacked with irony. It spends quite a bit of time on Eggers, actually.
posted by Merus at 8:57 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Irony became a lot less fun at that point.
Pretty sure I read a thing from Dave Eggers in The Believer around the same time all about how snark was keeping people from being able to participate in artistic acts, both creation and consumption.
There is a famous piece, On Smarm, that challenges Eggers on this specific front; irony poisoning might be the point where the ironic mode has gone too far and needs to be attacked with sincerity, but smarm - the assumption of sincerity and inclusion as an empty gesture, without any genuine truth, warmth or insight, is probably the point where sincerity goes too far and needs to be attacked with irony. It spends quite a bit of time on Eggers, actually.
posted by Merus at 8:57 AM on July 27, 2021 [11 favorites]
Sopranos was the first sitcom HBO aired in HD starting in season three.
Sorry, I have to ask, is this an alternate reality bit, or did I deeply misunderstand what the Sopranos was as a show?
posted by solotoro at 9:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [17 favorites]
Sorry, I have to ask, is this an alternate reality bit, or did I deeply misunderstand what the Sopranos was as a show?
posted by solotoro at 9:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [17 favorites]
(or do I deeply misunderstand what a sitcom is?)
posted by solotoro at 9:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 9:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
My biggest complaint about "Ted Lasso" is that you have to have AppleTV to watch it. I don't enjoy mean tv, which covers 'reality' tv and a lot of other shows. A lot of shows I start out liking end up going for melodrama and conspiracy theories. "Ted Lasso," the show and the character, look kind of unimpressive at the start, and both prove to have a lot more going on. I haven't read much about the role of football (what we call soccer), but it's a real supporting actor.
IMDB listlicle of the best American tv shows since 2000 is a real mix of sincere, mean, violent, sweet, interesting. (there are odd omissions; this is not that thread) The NYT article is juxtaposing the British "Office" against the mostly American "Ted Lasso,' and I think it fails to make its point. Fuck yeah, after 4 years of that previous Guy, decency and honesty are very much what I need. But, like Ted, the show brings more than that to the table. Between "Ted Lasso" and "The Good Place," I have renewed hope for American tv.
posted by theora55 at 9:05 AM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
IMDB listlicle of the best American tv shows since 2000 is a real mix of sincere, mean, violent, sweet, interesting. (there are odd omissions; this is not that thread) The NYT article is juxtaposing the British "Office" against the mostly American "Ted Lasso,' and I think it fails to make its point. Fuck yeah, after 4 years of that previous Guy, decency and honesty are very much what I need. But, like Ted, the show brings more than that to the table. Between "Ted Lasso" and "The Good Place," I have renewed hope for American tv.
posted by theora55 at 9:05 AM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
The amount of sincerity generated by an entertainment product seems analogous to whatever you want to make of the Seattle Kraken franchise in hockey. Is this really cool? Will the jerseys be cool? Who will end up on the t-- oh, it's gone.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:17 AM on July 27, 2021
posted by elkevelvet at 9:17 AM on July 27, 2021
See: The Simpsons being an average middle class family but in the modern world their lifestyle is basically completely out of reach for adults of roughly the same assumed age of Homer and Marge Simpson. What initially seemed sincere (At the time of conception, the Simpsons' home was actually relatively humble) now seems insincere, not because the original changed but because the world changed and the media stayed the same making the media seem less sincere over time.
deadaluspark
You're getting this exactly backwards. The Simpsons wasn't a sincere portrayal of middle class life in 1989, it was explicitly a mockery of older idealized TV portrayals of American family life that the writers grew up with. You don't have to take my word for it, read what Matt Groening et al say about the conception of the show. Springfield is supposed to be a twisted version of Mayberry where everything is stupid and corrupt instead of wholesome and pure, The Simpsons themselves a broken version of the stereotypical nuclear family of the 50s/60s where father doesn't know best. In the early years Jim Brooks did work hard to keep the show relatively grounded and focused on the family itself, but it was never some kind of sincere depiction of the reality of life at that time, it was intentionally a throwback.
Younger people today are now wrongly looking back at the early show and not understanding that it wasn't trying to show what life was like then, it was parodying it.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:18 AM on July 27, 2021 [33 favorites]
deadaluspark
You're getting this exactly backwards. The Simpsons wasn't a sincere portrayal of middle class life in 1989, it was explicitly a mockery of older idealized TV portrayals of American family life that the writers grew up with. You don't have to take my word for it, read what Matt Groening et al say about the conception of the show. Springfield is supposed to be a twisted version of Mayberry where everything is stupid and corrupt instead of wholesome and pure, The Simpsons themselves a broken version of the stereotypical nuclear family of the 50s/60s where father doesn't know best. In the early years Jim Brooks did work hard to keep the show relatively grounded and focused on the family itself, but it was never some kind of sincere depiction of the reality of life at that time, it was intentionally a throwback.
Younger people today are now wrongly looking back at the early show and not understanding that it wasn't trying to show what life was like then, it was parodying it.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:18 AM on July 27, 2021 [33 favorites]
As a dude in his early 40s, I am so, so fucking tired of Gen X cynicism masquerading as “just irony, bro.” The young white cishet male media landscape of the late 90s and early 2000s was so gross, and I loathed all the cringe porn that followed it so much.
I don’t know what’s driving this change — and neither does this writer, and neither do any of us, judging by this thread — but I am all for sincere, kind media.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:19 AM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
I don’t know what’s driving this change — and neither does this writer, and neither do any of us, judging by this thread — but I am all for sincere, kind media.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:19 AM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
Springfield is supposed to be a twisted version of Mayberry where everything is stupid and corrupt instead of wholesome and pure, The Simpsons a broken version of the stereotypical nuclear family of the 50s/60s where father doesn't know best.
I literally thought that aspect of the Simpsons is what made it more sincere? It isn't a twisted Mayberry. It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time. The struggling to afford the modest house and working yourself to death and not really being happy about and knowing you're just average and you suck at most things including taking care of your family and home.
Mayberry was never sincere, it was a lie, and the Simpsons may have also been a lie, but it was used to expose the lie that was Mayberry and show the darker underbelly that truly existed in American life. So, sincere, in my book.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:23 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I literally thought that aspect of the Simpsons is what made it more sincere? It isn't a twisted Mayberry. It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time. The struggling to afford the modest house and working yourself to death and not really being happy about and knowing you're just average and you suck at most things including taking care of your family and home.
Mayberry was never sincere, it was a lie, and the Simpsons may have also been a lie, but it was used to expose the lie that was Mayberry and show the darker underbelly that truly existed in American life. So, sincere, in my book.
posted by deadaluspark at 9:23 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
A one episode Glee mashup (cheerleaders, music numbers, Sue Sylvester) would be fabulous. Maybe as a special on Oscar night, since the Oscars is kind of dull lately.
posted by theora55 at 9:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by theora55 at 9:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Can someone who knows more about television put this in a longer context? Like... what came before the syrupy sitcoms that Letterman and Seinfeld were reacting against?
You can go a fair ways towards that by just looking at the top shows in the US by year. Top sitcoms that premiered in the 80s and weren't spinoffs/remakes/retreads of earlier things include:
Newhart, 9 to 5, Kate & Allie, Cosby Show, Family Ties, Cheers, Night Court, Growing Pains, Who's the Boss, Alf, Amen, and Roseanne, with Roseanne being the odd man out there.
The Simpsons and Seinfeld both premiered in 89 but Seinfeld didn't become a top-10 show until the mid 90s and the Simpsons never was (which surprised me to see; it appears it topped out at 27th place).
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:35 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
You can go a fair ways towards that by just looking at the top shows in the US by year. Top sitcoms that premiered in the 80s and weren't spinoffs/remakes/retreads of earlier things include:
Newhart, 9 to 5, Kate & Allie, Cosby Show, Family Ties, Cheers, Night Court, Growing Pains, Who's the Boss, Alf, Amen, and Roseanne, with Roseanne being the odd man out there.
The Simpsons and Seinfeld both premiered in 89 but Seinfeld didn't become a top-10 show until the mid 90s and the Simpsons never was (which surprised me to see; it appears it topped out at 27th place).
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:35 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
When I asked about "what came before the syrupy sitcoms," I was asking about what came before the '80s stuff that I grew up on. Was the Cosby Show a counterreaction to stuff that was on TV in the '70s or late '60s? What *was* on TV in the '70s and late '60s? And was it in turn a reaction to what was on TV in the '50s?
posted by clawsoon at 9:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 9:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Was the Cosby Show a counterreaction to stuff that was on TV in the '70s or late '60s? What *was* on TV in the '70s and late '60s?
Yes, to All in the Family , which started in 1971 and MASH.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:55 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, to All in the Family , which started in 1971 and MASH.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:55 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
So is that why so many young Americans are Fascists? Irony is difficult, so I'll embrace all these parades and flags and pledges (and then the implied xenophobia)?
Nah, I'd say there has always been a pretty prominent component of ironic detachment in the alt-right, even before it was weaponized by the former president (literally but not seriously? seriously but not literally?). Recall all the "God Emperor" language they were using before the 2016 election, and now watch us struggling with exactly how *sincere* of an attempt to overthrow the government occurred on Jan 6.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:03 AM on July 27, 2021
Nah, I'd say there has always been a pretty prominent component of ironic detachment in the alt-right, even before it was weaponized by the former president (literally but not seriously? seriously but not literally?). Recall all the "God Emperor" language they were using before the 2016 election, and now watch us struggling with exactly how *sincere* of an attempt to overthrow the government occurred on Jan 6.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:03 AM on July 27, 2021
Was the Cosby Show a counterreaction to stuff that was on TV in the '70s or late '60s?
Yes, inasmuch as Cosby was a hugely popular crossover act, and when producing the sitcom he insisted that his character and Phylicia Rashad's character would be portrayed as educated, upper-middle class Black parents.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Yes, inasmuch as Cosby was a hugely popular crossover act, and when producing the sitcom he insisted that his character and Phylicia Rashad's character would be portrayed as educated, upper-middle class Black parents.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Family strife and economic diversity were more evident in 1970s comedies including One Day at a Time, Sanford and Son, Chico and the Man, Good Times, etc. Everybody watched the same comedies, no matter whether they starred Black actors (What's Happening, The Jeffersons) or mixed casts (Diff'rent Strokes, Facts of Life) or white. Barney Miller (which I will extol the virtues of all day long) had not just a rotating mixed cast (including a few women detectives), but also regular gay characters (and a story line about being gay and working as a cop in a time when that wasn't looked upon kindly) and characters who disagreed politically but who could still work together and respect each other. As a whole, I'd put 1970s sitcoms above 1980s more saccharine sitcoms any day of the week, even if they could be broader in their jokey tone.
posted by sardonyx at 10:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by sardonyx at 10:04 AM on July 27, 2021 [19 favorites]
What *was* on TV in the '70s and late '60s?
I semi-recently started watching Taxi with a friend, and it's strange, because it's got some of the weird syrupy crap in it (including some syrupy crap that just plays as totally awkward and weird watching it with fresh eyes in 2020-2021), but it also has strong dark comedic performances from Danny DeVito and Tony Danza that definitely veer into the "mean TV" range. Hell, DeVito's "Louie" on Taxi is basically a prototypical "Frank" from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. He is just as rude, crude and socially unacceptable, a jerk of a loser who lives with his mom and relishes in ruining other people's days. Danza is happily the dumb jock and makes a great show of it, starting off kind of slow but quickly building into one of the series best characters.
The amount of casual racism played for laughs is too damn high, of course.
I hope Andy Kaufman hated Latka as much as I have. Fucking insufferable especially when he is speaking his bullshit gibberish ass language against actors speaking real foreign languages, (only happens once, cringey as fuck) on top of the fact that there are basically no speaking roles for people of color, who are basically the majority of the background cast. From what I've read though, he did hate the role. So, sorry Andy. Maybe they should have let you do you.
Marilu Henner didn't go real dark, but her character represented something that was building in that time, which was the financially struggling single mother working some blue collar work like taxi driving to provide for her children. The Equal Credit Opportunity Act banning denying credit based on gender had only just passed in 1974, four years before Taxi began airing. Women had only just recently begun to have access to their own bank accounts in the 1960's, so her character was representing a lot of more real economics issues women were facing at the time.
Anyway, yeah, it seems to me that TV of the 70's was a little more sincere. Didn't Sesame Street start in the late 1960's? Wasn't a big theme of it focused on showing life for people in the inner city that didn't usually get represented on television so children could feel like they identified with the children on screen? I believe it was actually aimed at helping prepare those children for school in ways their families were perhaps unable to, due to economic and social constraints.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:20 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
I semi-recently started watching Taxi with a friend, and it's strange, because it's got some of the weird syrupy crap in it (including some syrupy crap that just plays as totally awkward and weird watching it with fresh eyes in 2020-2021), but it also has strong dark comedic performances from Danny DeVito and Tony Danza that definitely veer into the "mean TV" range. Hell, DeVito's "Louie" on Taxi is basically a prototypical "Frank" from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. He is just as rude, crude and socially unacceptable, a jerk of a loser who lives with his mom and relishes in ruining other people's days. Danza is happily the dumb jock and makes a great show of it, starting off kind of slow but quickly building into one of the series best characters.
The amount of casual racism played for laughs is too damn high, of course.
I hope Andy Kaufman hated Latka as much as I have. Fucking insufferable especially when he is speaking his bullshit gibberish ass language against actors speaking real foreign languages, (only happens once, cringey as fuck) on top of the fact that there are basically no speaking roles for people of color, who are basically the majority of the background cast. From what I've read though, he did hate the role. So, sorry Andy. Maybe they should have let you do you.
Marilu Henner didn't go real dark, but her character represented something that was building in that time, which was the financially struggling single mother working some blue collar work like taxi driving to provide for her children. The Equal Credit Opportunity Act banning denying credit based on gender had only just passed in 1974, four years before Taxi began airing. Women had only just recently begun to have access to their own bank accounts in the 1960's, so her character was representing a lot of more real economics issues women were facing at the time.
Anyway, yeah, it seems to me that TV of the 70's was a little more sincere. Didn't Sesame Street start in the late 1960's? Wasn't a big theme of it focused on showing life for people in the inner city that didn't usually get represented on television so children could feel like they identified with the children on screen? I believe it was actually aimed at helping prepare those children for school in ways their families were perhaps unable to, due to economic and social constraints.
posted by deadaluspark at 10:20 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ted Lasso is pleasant to watch but I wouldn't describe it as funny, per se.
Amusing, genial, heartwarming...sure. All good things, but I certainly don't want or need these elements in every comedy show.
And I don't think it somehow makes a show better or more virtuous just because all of its characters are fundamentally nice.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:26 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Amusing, genial, heartwarming...sure. All good things, but I certainly don't want or need these elements in every comedy show.
And I don't think it somehow makes a show better or more virtuous just because all of its characters are fundamentally nice.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:26 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Yes, to All in the Family , which started in 1971 and MASH.
Other things that might fit as "things the 80s were reacting against" but that I don't remember very well might include the Jeffersons, Sanford and Son, maybe Three's Company.
Still plenty of sincere and/or treacly stuff then too, though. Happy Days, Good Times (IIRC), Welcome Back Kotter, Laverne and Shirley... Not sitcoms, but this was the heyday of the Waltons and Little House.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Other things that might fit as "things the 80s were reacting against" but that I don't remember very well might include the Jeffersons, Sanford and Son, maybe Three's Company.
Still plenty of sincere and/or treacly stuff then too, though. Happy Days, Good Times (IIRC), Welcome Back Kotter, Laverne and Shirley... Not sitcoms, but this was the heyday of the Waltons and Little House.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
A lot of the better 70’s tv (Norman Lear’s shows in particular) made a sincere effort to sort through the cultural wake of the late 60’s which had left middle America pretty freaked out. There were also a ton of shows set in the 50’s like Happy Days and Laverne and Shirley that seemed intended to comfort an anxious mainstream audience while gently explaining why change had to come (early episodes of L and S have pretty good politics until the tone of the show changed). And so, so many of these shows were focused on working class people, who basically vanished from TV in the 90’s.
But these are sit coms. I’m really not aware of serious dramas that kept America riveted in the 70’s and 80’s. I think you went to the movies for that. I know there was a ton of melodramas and cop shows. And then, very often, an edited-for-tv feature length movie at 11 PM.
I think that’s part of what made the boom of long-form drama feel so refreshing in the late 90’s. You could finally have tragic arcs, protagonists you didn’t “like”, all that literary stuff.
posted by ducky l'orange at 10:29 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
But these are sit coms. I’m really not aware of serious dramas that kept America riveted in the 70’s and 80’s. I think you went to the movies for that. I know there was a ton of melodramas and cop shows. And then, very often, an edited-for-tv feature length movie at 11 PM.
I think that’s part of what made the boom of long-form drama feel so refreshing in the late 90’s. You could finally have tragic arcs, protagonists you didn’t “like”, all that literary stuff.
posted by ducky l'orange at 10:29 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
(And of course all that got done to death, but that’s just the industry doing it’s thing. As observed upthread, in 10 years a substantial portion of the public will be truly sick of the New Sincerity, assuming we’re all still here).
posted by ducky l'orange at 10:33 AM on July 27, 2021
posted by ducky l'orange at 10:33 AM on July 27, 2021
I just started watching Ted Lasso and I am enjoying its good hearted sincerity which I do believe is a reflection of the times, much like nature horror is making a comeback. A film I find brimming with optimism and friendly humans is the romp that is Eurovision: Song of Fire and Ice. Seriously, go watch it, it’s such a glorious piece of wonderful trash. There are seriously no bad people, well one, it it. You expect the Russians to be horrible back Stab er’s, but no, they’re all just nice people. It’s really refreshing and wonderful. Ja ja Ding Dong.
posted by misterpatrick at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I fully expect a NY Times clickbaiter to write a trend piece heralding the return of mean TV when Succession S3 finally appears. Remember the 2000s when we had lovable workplaces like Dunder Mifflin? What does the toxic culture of Waystar RoyCo say about the way we work now? Something, something, post-pandemic anxiety, boar on the floor, etc.
There you go, Style section, I've written the article for you.
It's interesting that Apple TV is so vague about how many people actually watch Ted Lasso? I know more people who didn't know their Apple devices came with Apple TV than people who have clicked on it. Anecdotal, but I have a feeling that "most popular on Apple TV" is like being the tallest kindergartner.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
There you go, Style section, I've written the article for you.
It's interesting that Apple TV is so vague about how many people actually watch Ted Lasso? I know more people who didn't know their Apple devices came with Apple TV than people who have clicked on it. Anecdotal, but I have a feeling that "most popular on Apple TV" is like being the tallest kindergartner.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:45 AM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
"But this doesn't answer the question posed by the article of "How did we get from the dominant mode of ironic detachment 20 years ago to sincerity and directness today?" […] why does having more diverse writing rooms lead to the current mode? Do non-straight, non-white, non-male writers not like or not do ironic detachment? Do straight white male writers not like sincere directness?"
I don't think it's as simple as drawing straight (ha) lines between gender and writing styles. Nor is it one factor resulting in the style we have now. That said, I imagine that diverse writing rooms would have a huge impact. Mainly because you now have new perspectives in the room, challenging and questioning what's considered relatable and funny. Privilege has an obliviousness to it that went unchecked for a looong time (and in some pockets, still does). Inclusivity is kinder.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:54 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's as simple as drawing straight (ha) lines between gender and writing styles. Nor is it one factor resulting in the style we have now. That said, I imagine that diverse writing rooms would have a huge impact. Mainly because you now have new perspectives in the room, challenging and questioning what's considered relatable and funny. Privilege has an obliviousness to it that went unchecked for a looong time (and in some pockets, still does). Inclusivity is kinder.
posted by iamkimiam at 10:54 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
On the topic of the shift in sensibilities in television from the 1970s to the 1980s, there's a good podcast called Gayest Episode Ever in which they discuss the one-off episodes of classic TV sitcoms which attempted to address LGBTQ themes. One thing the hosts have discovered over the course of the series is how much bolder and more upfront 1970s TV shows—even mainstream family sitcoms—were about depicting gay subjects (and actual gay people) than shows from the subsequent decade.
It can't be overstated just how much the election of Ronald Reagan did to set back the hard-won progress that had been fought for in the 60s and 70s.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:15 AM on July 27, 2021 [13 favorites]
It can't be overstated just how much the election of Ronald Reagan did to set back the hard-won progress that had been fought for in the 60s and 70s.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:15 AM on July 27, 2021 [13 favorites]
I literally thought that aspect of the Simpsons is what made it more sincere? It isn't a twisted Mayberry. It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time.
That's how I feel about The West Wing and Veep. The satire feels more truthful and sincere than the patriotic drama.
posted by gladly at 11:21 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
That's how I feel about The West Wing and Veep. The satire feels more truthful and sincere than the patriotic drama.
posted by gladly at 11:21 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Sorry, I have to ask, is this an alternate reality bit, or did I deeply misunderstand what the Sopranos was as a show?
The article specifically mentions The Sopranos. It meandered into anti-heroes for a bit. It was a confusing article. It was more or less “TV I liked in the early 2000s is gone.”
I have several good friends who are writers in LA. I can confirm that Ted Lasso copycats are coming. It is a fairly inexpensive show to produce: small cast, no special effects.
posted by geoff. at 11:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
The article specifically mentions The Sopranos. It meandered into anti-heroes for a bit. It was a confusing article. It was more or less “TV I liked in the early 2000s is gone.”
I have several good friends who are writers in LA. I can confirm that Ted Lasso copycats are coming. It is a fairly inexpensive show to produce: small cast, no special effects.
posted by geoff. at 11:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ted Lasso is not broadcast, it’s delivered over the Internet on the paid (not free like broadcast TV) subscription service Apple TV+.
Well, that’d be it, then. I’m typing this on an iPhone and have a iPad a few steps from me and I have never bothered to look at Apple TV, despite four or five other streaming services coming into this house.
I have been reading articles for twenty-five years about the fragmenting television landscape, and I understand that runaway successes have half the viewership of a mediocre third-place-in-its-time-slot tv show forty years ago, but I don’t recall anyone foreseeing this aspect. Imagine trying to communicate to someone fifty years ago that, “no, your aerial does not get NBC.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:32 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Well, that’d be it, then. I’m typing this on an iPhone and have a iPad a few steps from me and I have never bothered to look at Apple TV, despite four or five other streaming services coming into this house.
I have been reading articles for twenty-five years about the fragmenting television landscape, and I understand that runaway successes have half the viewership of a mediocre third-place-in-its-time-slot tv show forty years ago, but I don’t recall anyone foreseeing this aspect. Imagine trying to communicate to someone fifty years ago that, “no, your aerial does not get NBC.”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:32 AM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
The article specifically mentions The Sopranos.
Reasonably sure that solotoro’s query is in regards to classifying The Sopranos as a sitcom. Like solotoro, I am from the universe where it’s a crime drama.
posted by zamboni at 11:44 AM on July 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
Reasonably sure that solotoro’s query is in regards to classifying The Sopranos as a sitcom. Like solotoro, I am from the universe where it’s a crime drama.
posted by zamboni at 11:44 AM on July 27, 2021 [10 favorites]
but I don’t recall anyone foreseeing this aspect. Imagine trying to communicate to someone fifty years ago that, “no, your aerial does not get NBC.”
It's not directly related, but in the early 2000's, a lot of people wrote a great deal about ISPs like Comcast (very relevant in this case because Comcast literally bought NBC) in effect becoming content providers and how, if they managed to shut down net neutrality, they could conceivably shut out competition by slowing or blocking competition entirely while giving their own service premium speed and access, and possibly for a cheaper price, since the customer is already a cable internet subscriber. In other words, since the FCC previously gutted net neutrality, it potentially gave Comcast license to potentially lock up NBC content and limit its access to only Comcast internet subscribers. They didn't do that, but technically the legal potential is there, without net neutrality.
So, while it wasn't explicitly about this exact subject, I think a fair bit of thought has been put to paper about how moving all communications from over-the-air (TV, radio) and copper wire (phone) to digitized access was a big deal, because it then (and to an extent also now) was legally distinct and handled very differently than over-the-air or copper wire mediums, and as such doesn't have the same protections for fair distribution of the medium. You can't control radio waves the way you can control bits going through a wire, so anyone with a receiver can receive them. With bits through a wire you can effectively create a digital lock that needs to be paid to access, so you can have a receiver, but still need to go through a paywall to access the content. Cable TV, also provided via wire, operated on similar principles of blocking access behind paywalls just with a lot less security in the old days.
This is also why WiFi is inherently insecure, because anyone can technically see the data stream since its just radio waves, all they have to do is crack the security and they have every piece of data flowing through the WiFi network.
Consumers want wired connections because they offer more stability, and businesses want wired connections because they allow them to effectively meter the connection. You can meter wireless networks as well, of course, but they're just overall less desirable.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:47 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's not directly related, but in the early 2000's, a lot of people wrote a great deal about ISPs like Comcast (very relevant in this case because Comcast literally bought NBC) in effect becoming content providers and how, if they managed to shut down net neutrality, they could conceivably shut out competition by slowing or blocking competition entirely while giving their own service premium speed and access, and possibly for a cheaper price, since the customer is already a cable internet subscriber. In other words, since the FCC previously gutted net neutrality, it potentially gave Comcast license to potentially lock up NBC content and limit its access to only Comcast internet subscribers. They didn't do that, but technically the legal potential is there, without net neutrality.
So, while it wasn't explicitly about this exact subject, I think a fair bit of thought has been put to paper about how moving all communications from over-the-air (TV, radio) and copper wire (phone) to digitized access was a big deal, because it then (and to an extent also now) was legally distinct and handled very differently than over-the-air or copper wire mediums, and as such doesn't have the same protections for fair distribution of the medium. You can't control radio waves the way you can control bits going through a wire, so anyone with a receiver can receive them. With bits through a wire you can effectively create a digital lock that needs to be paid to access, so you can have a receiver, but still need to go through a paywall to access the content. Cable TV, also provided via wire, operated on similar principles of blocking access behind paywalls just with a lot less security in the old days.
This is also why WiFi is inherently insecure, because anyone can technically see the data stream since its just radio waves, all they have to do is crack the security and they have every piece of data flowing through the WiFi network.
Consumers want wired connections because they offer more stability, and businesses want wired connections because they allow them to effectively meter the connection. You can meter wireless networks as well, of course, but they're just overall less desirable.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:47 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Oh whoops didn’t mean to call it a sitcom.
posted by geoff. at 11:48 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 11:48 AM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Was the Cosby Show a counterreaction to stuff that was on TV in the '70s or late '60s?
In a sense. It was aspirational/comedy, as opposed to the working class conflict humor of some earlier shows like Sanford and Son or Good Times. George Jefferson made it by being a shrewd businessman and remaining a huge asshole. But the comedy of these shows had a large sense of class/race awareness of not being on top, trying to stay afloat, or succeeding despite the stacked deck. Cosby, on the other hand, depicted a situation on a higher rung of the ladder, in that they got to a place by their intellectual ability. You could understand why the show held a special place for so long in their depiction of an African American family.
It's funny how Letterman is brought up in relation to the 90s. He was doing the irony way ahead of the curve here. Of course, he wasn't a sitcom, and he really only survived by being a show that could be broadcast in the middle of the night. I think it should be said, a lot of people hated, or simply could not comprehend his humor. But there wasn't much in the way of comparable prime time humor on TV in the early 80s when he really got traction. And boy, was he a reaction to sincere television.
TV in the 70s seemed to be dominated more or less by sincerity. There were certainly some edgy characters, but we're talking about the age of peak Variety Show here. And you started to get shows that were deemed important, though probably mostly by execs keen to get viewers tuning in. The only show I can think of off the top of my head that stood out in contrast was Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman.
I literally thought that aspect of the Simpsons is what made it more sincere? It isn't a twisted Mayberry. It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time.
You might be thinking of King of the Hill here.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
In a sense. It was aspirational/comedy, as opposed to the working class conflict humor of some earlier shows like Sanford and Son or Good Times. George Jefferson made it by being a shrewd businessman and remaining a huge asshole. But the comedy of these shows had a large sense of class/race awareness of not being on top, trying to stay afloat, or succeeding despite the stacked deck. Cosby, on the other hand, depicted a situation on a higher rung of the ladder, in that they got to a place by their intellectual ability. You could understand why the show held a special place for so long in their depiction of an African American family.
It's funny how Letterman is brought up in relation to the 90s. He was doing the irony way ahead of the curve here. Of course, he wasn't a sitcom, and he really only survived by being a show that could be broadcast in the middle of the night. I think it should be said, a lot of people hated, or simply could not comprehend his humor. But there wasn't much in the way of comparable prime time humor on TV in the early 80s when he really got traction. And boy, was he a reaction to sincere television.
TV in the 70s seemed to be dominated more or less by sincerity. There were certainly some edgy characters, but we're talking about the age of peak Variety Show here. And you started to get shows that were deemed important, though probably mostly by execs keen to get viewers tuning in. The only show I can think of off the top of my head that stood out in contrast was Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman.
I literally thought that aspect of the Simpsons is what made it more sincere? It isn't a twisted Mayberry. It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time.
You might be thinking of King of the Hill here.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:51 AM on July 27, 2021 [5 favorites]
It is a fairly inexpensive show to produce: small cast, no special effects.
It surely lacks the effects of flashier shows, but like almost all modern shows, digital effects are used in many scenes of Ted Lasso. This is a neat Ted Lasso greenscreen and VFX breakdown video.
posted by Monochrome at 12:03 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
It surely lacks the effects of flashier shows, but like almost all modern shows, digital effects are used in many scenes of Ted Lasso. This is a neat Ted Lasso greenscreen and VFX breakdown video.
posted by Monochrome at 12:03 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I especially noticed part of this shift toward sincerity when I was watching The Queen's Gambit. My cynical brain kept expecting bad things to happen to the main character, or for her to be taken advantage of. I was pleasantly surprised when it didn't happen. This shift, to me, feels large. It's great to not always have to look for the bad in people.
I think a lot of American society is shifting away from sarcasm and irony. As someone for whom sarcasm is my first language, I'm fine with it. Parks and Rec and Brooklyn 99 both paved the way for Ted Lasso. It's such a refreshing change to be able to just kinda relax while watching a show - not always feeling on edge is awesome. If I want that, I'll watch senate hearings about insurrection.
As for Michael Scott on The Office, he makes a lot of super-cringey statements even in later episodes. Although most of his colleagues somewhat embrace him, he's still awkward and very uncomfortable at times. There are some moments that are just too reminiscent of the orange cheetoh, that I need to change the channel.
posted by hydra77 at 12:08 PM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think a lot of American society is shifting away from sarcasm and irony. As someone for whom sarcasm is my first language, I'm fine with it. Parks and Rec and Brooklyn 99 both paved the way for Ted Lasso. It's such a refreshing change to be able to just kinda relax while watching a show - not always feeling on edge is awesome. If I want that, I'll watch senate hearings about insurrection.
As for Michael Scott on The Office, he makes a lot of super-cringey statements even in later episodes. Although most of his colleagues somewhat embrace him, he's still awkward and very uncomfortable at times. There are some moments that are just too reminiscent of the orange cheetoh, that I need to change the channel.
posted by hydra77 at 12:08 PM on July 27, 2021 [7 favorites]
Anecdotal, but I have a feeling that "most popular on Apple TV" is like being the tallest kindergartner.
Here is a chart that basically says the same thing. Apple doesn't even rate the breakout in the streaming category.
It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time.
A lost episode described by BR-549 details the seedy underbelly of Mayberry.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:37 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Here is a chart that basically says the same thing. Apple doesn't even rate the breakout in the streaming category.
It's what Mayberry had hiding underneath the surface the whole time.
A lost episode described by BR-549 details the seedy underbelly of Mayberry.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:37 PM on July 27, 2021 [2 favorites]
Sincerity, sentimentality and irony are probably the rock, paper and scissors of popular art, but sincerity is the only one that’s truly non-toxic, and we could all use a break from mean.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:42 PM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:42 PM on July 27, 2021 [8 favorites]
Mare of Easttown is an interesting show to consider, and is not mentioned in the article. Bad stuff happens over and over again to decent people, and yet there is still a sincerity and kindness that you might not get from a show made 10 years earlier. I think if anything the trend has been the same for years-- to break through, you have to do something different. That then becomes what everyone copies, and then the next big goalpost is the first big hit to go against the grain. Rinse and repeat.
posted by chaz at 1:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by chaz at 1:12 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
We could use a little sincerity and kindness right now, is what I'm saying.
This is what I think too; everyone I know was exhausted and drained before the pandemic and it's only gotten worse. Speaking at least for myself, I am simply not interested in anything depressing; I already feel worn out and ground down by the political situation and capitalism and covid and any number of things. Life right now is really hard for a lot of people, I think it's understandable that we want what leisure time we have to be happy and uplifting.
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:56 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is what I think too; everyone I know was exhausted and drained before the pandemic and it's only gotten worse. Speaking at least for myself, I am simply not interested in anything depressing; I already feel worn out and ground down by the political situation and capitalism and covid and any number of things. Life right now is really hard for a lot of people, I think it's understandable that we want what leisure time we have to be happy and uplifting.
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:56 PM on July 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
In my media choices, I’ve been alternating between horror and comfort recently. I’ve always found supernatural or cosmic horror to be reassuring, as it’s not coming true at all.
posted by stoneegg21 at 4:05 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by stoneegg21 at 4:05 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
I'm still not sure why so much of this thread conflates sincerity with kindness. They're different things. Insincere kindness may be more common than it's sincere version.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:29 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 4:29 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Is it really kindness if it's insincere? Seems more accurate to call that fake niceness.
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:33 PM on July 27, 2021
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:33 PM on July 27, 2021
I don't even judge kindness and sincerity on the same axis, I take them as action and emotion. Warmth could be insincere, or kindness could be perfunctory, but a kind action is kind in itself.
We're quick enough to condemn interpersonal aggression based on its effect on the target, let's at least allow kindness the same leeway. Makes it possible for people to practice kindness without double-guessing their own intent.
posted by clew at 4:58 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
We're quick enough to condemn interpersonal aggression based on its effect on the target, let's at least allow kindness the same leeway. Makes it possible for people to practice kindness without double-guessing their own intent.
posted by clew at 4:58 PM on July 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
"Sincerity, sentimentality and irony are probably the rock, paper and scissors of popular art" this is very cute.
And yes, after a pandemic and political fallout, the comfort of sincerity is probably a huge deal. No one is interested in a ton of snarky or sardonic comments after a huge fight (funny or non), this isn't very different. Sincerity usually shows a matter is taken, well, seriously.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:59 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
And yes, after a pandemic and political fallout, the comfort of sincerity is probably a huge deal. No one is interested in a ton of snarky or sardonic comments after a huge fight (funny or non), this isn't very different. Sincerity usually shows a matter is taken, well, seriously.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:59 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
On the drama side, I do think it’s worth noting that for all its gore and adult content, Game of Thrones for several years seemed like a shift from more cynical prestige dramas like The Sopranos to something where the protagonists were perceived by audiences largely as sincere, world-saving do-gooders: Jon Snow was presented for several years as purely heroic and good, and seemed incapable of irony or detachment. Those years coincided with the show’s reign at the top of the pop culture heap. A lot of the backlash to the last season was directed at writing decisions, but I think part of that had to do with how muddied some of those heroic and good characters were by the end. Not what audiences wanted; not what most had an appetite for; the most obvious take-away messages seemed to be cynical after all.
Anyway, I am mentioning this because I think if The Sopranos is in the conversation as what was happening on the drama side 15+ years ago, it’s worth looking at what was popular in the interim and what that thing was like at the top of its popularity. But GoT obviously also lacked the feel-good lightness of the sitcoms under discussion.
Succession is a very predictable show with a nasty tone, but do we know how popular it is? My impression is that it’s admired in the critical class and by people who like serious dramas, particularly for its writing and characterization, but it hasn’t really been a mass cultural phenomenon. In some ways it’s Veep played at half-speed. I enjoy it, but I don’t think it has anything near the ratings success of the other two HBO dramas I’ve just discussed.
I definitely would draw a through line to Ted Lasso from Parks and Rec, but also from some of the warmer-hearted British comic novels and films of the early 2000s (About A Boy, for example). Very similar tone, but probably not intentional. I also think that most Ted fans probably haven’t seen the recent sitcom The Unicorn, which has some similar DNA.
posted by verbminx at 9:21 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I am mentioning this because I think if The Sopranos is in the conversation as what was happening on the drama side 15+ years ago, it’s worth looking at what was popular in the interim and what that thing was like at the top of its popularity. But GoT obviously also lacked the feel-good lightness of the sitcoms under discussion.
Succession is a very predictable show with a nasty tone, but do we know how popular it is? My impression is that it’s admired in the critical class and by people who like serious dramas, particularly for its writing and characterization, but it hasn’t really been a mass cultural phenomenon. In some ways it’s Veep played at half-speed. I enjoy it, but I don’t think it has anything near the ratings success of the other two HBO dramas I’ve just discussed.
I definitely would draw a through line to Ted Lasso from Parks and Rec, but also from some of the warmer-hearted British comic novels and films of the early 2000s (About A Boy, for example). Very similar tone, but probably not intentional. I also think that most Ted fans probably haven’t seen the recent sitcom The Unicorn, which has some similar DNA.
posted by verbminx at 9:21 PM on July 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Community as kind of straddling that line between irony and sincerity. Community had its cynical moments, and could sometimes tip into being mean-spirited, or just be about riffing on tropes and jokes, but it was very sincere about its core message of, well, community, IMO.
posted by yasaman at 11:01 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 11:01 PM on July 27, 2021 [3 favorites]
Game of Thrones for several years seemed like a shift from more cynical prestige dramas like The Sopranos to something where the protagonists were perceived by audiences largely as sincere, world-saving do-gooders: Jon Snow was presented for several years as purely heroic and good, and seemed incapable of irony or detachment. Those years coincided with the show’s reign at the top of the pop culture heap.
I'm not sure about this. Danaerys was certainly celebrated for being fairly naively committed to the Right Thing, so her inevitable turn to tyranny made a lot of people angry. The characters who were celebrated by the show - Tyrion, Arya, Sansa in the later seasons - were those who had their hearts in the right place while constantly lying and scheming to not be around when the swords came out.
posted by Merus at 1:49 AM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure about this. Danaerys was certainly celebrated for being fairly naively committed to the Right Thing, so her inevitable turn to tyranny made a lot of people angry. The characters who were celebrated by the show - Tyrion, Arya, Sansa in the later seasons - were those who had their hearts in the right place while constantly lying and scheming to not be around when the swords came out.
posted by Merus at 1:49 AM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
My feeling is that ironic detachment simply doesn't work for a considerable part of the audience in any circumstance, for it being difficult to distinguish between what is said and what may be meant or referenced. With TV I think this difficulty becomes even greater as the desire for personal attachment to characters seen embodied by actors in their situations makes detachment even more difficult. A show may start off by pushing the audience to take a more detached view, something I think Game of Thrones did most palpably in its first couple seasons, with the first season being virtually defined by its irony, the way the characters started being completely flipped by the way they ended with their beliefs being the fulcrum of that revision and, of course, by the way the show gained its notice by killing off characters because the events suggested it regardless of their beliefs. Innocent, sincere, well-meaning, bad, dishonest, or anywhere inbetween didn't really matter, the way of the show's world was the determining factor that the characters were tasked with facing up to or dying from.
At the same time, there has been a considerable rise in people demanding art better reflect the world as people want it to be rather than the world as it might be seen from a given standpoint. There's been a decided turn to thinking of art's role as being that of demonstrating improvement or "best" outcomes as a major part of its purpose. Some of that surely came from art long having been dominated by white men and the faults in their vision having become ever more transparent. Even if that vision was a personal one, something that had been considered as being of major import to art in the 20th century, the sheer bulk of it speaking from roughly similar experience made the "personal" feel constricting in ways that created a counter demand for something else that went beyond opening up the art worlds to more voices for their personal visions, towards a demand for more societal consideration in art.
That is a tricky path to manage though since by making the plea for one of "sincerity and society" it opens the path for greater Disneyfication as well, as that is at the heart of the corporate business plan, making minimally challenging art based around "universal themes" like family and friendship that tries hard not to upset anyone. That's fine to an extent, but by doing that the corporation values become the stand in for societal goals, to often questionable effect in practice. There is also the issue that much of the art that has best maintained a sense of fascination about it is of the more ambiguous sort, where it continues to draw audiences to it because it can't be easily resolved, where art that is popular in the moment may fade for being easy to "get" immediately and only interested in its specific place in time.
Reading/viewing different people talking about movies and shows brings out how readily we treat characters from a variety of works in the same way, even if some of those works emphasize ironic detachment and others personal investment and "sincerity". The desire to extrapolate the worlds of the shows and the characters to form a more intense attachment is hard to overcome and they all start to be discussed and attended to in the same way, with fandom only amplifying that to ever more intense levels. The corporate interest in pleasing fans and avoiding alienating any potential viewer makes moving away from detachment an easy sell as there is less chance for fandom backlash when the attitude is one of betterment of some sort. How "sincere" any of it is at the level of the artists making it is difficult to say at times, but if the characters are portrayed that way, it moots any discussion with plausible deniability. None of which is to say the desire to make such shows isn't sincere, for some creators it surely is, while for others its just the new path to the buck now that the old one has gone stale.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:25 AM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
At the same time, there has been a considerable rise in people demanding art better reflect the world as people want it to be rather than the world as it might be seen from a given standpoint. There's been a decided turn to thinking of art's role as being that of demonstrating improvement or "best" outcomes as a major part of its purpose. Some of that surely came from art long having been dominated by white men and the faults in their vision having become ever more transparent. Even if that vision was a personal one, something that had been considered as being of major import to art in the 20th century, the sheer bulk of it speaking from roughly similar experience made the "personal" feel constricting in ways that created a counter demand for something else that went beyond opening up the art worlds to more voices for their personal visions, towards a demand for more societal consideration in art.
That is a tricky path to manage though since by making the plea for one of "sincerity and society" it opens the path for greater Disneyfication as well, as that is at the heart of the corporate business plan, making minimally challenging art based around "universal themes" like family and friendship that tries hard not to upset anyone. That's fine to an extent, but by doing that the corporation values become the stand in for societal goals, to often questionable effect in practice. There is also the issue that much of the art that has best maintained a sense of fascination about it is of the more ambiguous sort, where it continues to draw audiences to it because it can't be easily resolved, where art that is popular in the moment may fade for being easy to "get" immediately and only interested in its specific place in time.
Reading/viewing different people talking about movies and shows brings out how readily we treat characters from a variety of works in the same way, even if some of those works emphasize ironic detachment and others personal investment and "sincerity". The desire to extrapolate the worlds of the shows and the characters to form a more intense attachment is hard to overcome and they all start to be discussed and attended to in the same way, with fandom only amplifying that to ever more intense levels. The corporate interest in pleasing fans and avoiding alienating any potential viewer makes moving away from detachment an easy sell as there is less chance for fandom backlash when the attitude is one of betterment of some sort. How "sincere" any of it is at the level of the artists making it is difficult to say at times, but if the characters are portrayed that way, it moots any discussion with plausible deniability. None of which is to say the desire to make such shows isn't sincere, for some creators it surely is, while for others its just the new path to the buck now that the old one has gone stale.
posted by gusottertrout at 3:25 AM on July 28, 2021 [2 favorites]
Anecdotal, but I have a feeling that "most popular on Apple TV" is like being the tallest kindergartner.
Apple TV (actually Apple TV+) is also a bit odd to me, in that I, a tech-enthusiast cord-cutting millennial, thought for the longest time that the service was exclusive to Apple hardware. Part of the confusion was around the fact that new iPhones came with free service, but also I was confused by the Apple TV name (the device that plugs into a TV) vs the Apple TV+ name (the streaming service). And also the exclusiveness of iMessage (which will likely get me to move off of Android).
I actually wasted a lot of time tracking down alternative ways of viewing the first season of Ted Lasso because I was so sure there was no way for me to watch it without spending $150 up front. Maybe I'm just too smart for my own ignorance.
I only figured it out when I starting thinking about why I kept seeing Apple TV+ commercials on Hulu, and then Target had an offer for 4 months of free service. I'm slightly vindicated by the fact that there's no app on Android devices, but now I'm happily watching season 2 of Ted Lasso on the Roku and my PCs.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 6:50 AM on July 28, 2021
Apple TV (actually Apple TV+) is also a bit odd to me, in that I, a tech-enthusiast cord-cutting millennial, thought for the longest time that the service was exclusive to Apple hardware. Part of the confusion was around the fact that new iPhones came with free service, but also I was confused by the Apple TV name (the device that plugs into a TV) vs the Apple TV+ name (the streaming service). And also the exclusiveness of iMessage (which will likely get me to move off of Android).
I actually wasted a lot of time tracking down alternative ways of viewing the first season of Ted Lasso because I was so sure there was no way for me to watch it without spending $150 up front. Maybe I'm just too smart for my own ignorance.
I only figured it out when I starting thinking about why I kept seeing Apple TV+ commercials on Hulu, and then Target had an offer for 4 months of free service. I'm slightly vindicated by the fact that there's no app on Android devices, but now I'm happily watching season 2 of Ted Lasso on the Roku and my PCs.
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 6:50 AM on July 28, 2021
Well bless your heart, thatwhichfalls... (grin)
posted by PhineasGage at 6:57 AM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 6:57 AM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
I have several good friends who are writers in LA. I can confirm that Ted Lasso copycats are coming.
Producers no doubt recalling the age old showbiz saw about sincerity, "if you can fake that...".
Haven't seen the show, but from clips, if we're talking Simpsons, I'm thinking Ned Flanders.
posted by BWA at 8:33 AM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
Producers no doubt recalling the age old showbiz saw about sincerity, "if you can fake that...".
Haven't seen the show, but from clips, if we're talking Simpsons, I'm thinking Ned Flanders.
posted by BWA at 8:33 AM on July 28, 2021 [1 favorite]
What *was* on TV in the '70s and late '60s?
I've been watching Bewitched on and off with my 10 year old; it started by me showing him a few clips after we watched WandaVision and talked about physical effects on TV (and indeed, Bewitched had the magic show scene!!) I also watched this video on witchcraft in Bewitched standing in for being closeted. (The algorithm showed it to me, I have no idea about the vlogger.)
Anyways, I have to admit I was a fan of that show growing up (in reruns) and I found I still am. Elizabeth Montgomery is electrifying to watch even against the bad Darrin, and Endora's clothes!!! (We had a black and white TV.)
Anyways, I remember that one, I Dream of Jeannie, The Brady Bunch, The Waltons, Little House on the Prairie, The Bionic Man, The Bionic Woman, OF COURSE Wonder Woman, Shazam!, the OG Batman, Mork and Mindy...all pretty much earnest stuff.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:11 AM on July 29, 2021
I've been watching Bewitched on and off with my 10 year old; it started by me showing him a few clips after we watched WandaVision and talked about physical effects on TV (and indeed, Bewitched had the magic show scene!!) I also watched this video on witchcraft in Bewitched standing in for being closeted. (The algorithm showed it to me, I have no idea about the vlogger.)
Anyways, I have to admit I was a fan of that show growing up (in reruns) and I found I still am. Elizabeth Montgomery is electrifying to watch even against the bad Darrin, and Endora's clothes!!! (We had a black and white TV.)
Anyways, I remember that one, I Dream of Jeannie, The Brady Bunch, The Waltons, Little House on the Prairie, The Bionic Man, The Bionic Woman, OF COURSE Wonder Woman, Shazam!, the OG Batman, Mork and Mindy...all pretty much earnest stuff.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:11 AM on July 29, 2021
I also watched this video on witchcraft in Bewitched standing in for being closeted
Then you might be interested in the discussion about that vid as it was a FPP a little while back.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2021
Then you might be interested in the discussion about that vid as it was a FPP a little while back.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2021
Thanks, I missed that one! Abusing edit window to add: I think Elizabeth Montgomery 'turned me bi' as a kid. (I know it doesn't work that! But first crush.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:33 AM on July 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 8:33 AM on July 29, 2021 [2 favorites]
Not a terribly relevant, but since Bewitched came up... It has one of those theme songs that mimics the rhythm of the spoken title. When I hear it, I'm always imaging lyrics that just go "be-WITCHED ... be-WITCHED... bewitched bewitched bewitched...". The My Three Sons theme song (which I absolutely loathe and now it will be in my head all day) also does this, to my ear at least. "My Three Soooons, they're my three sooons, oh my three soooons..." Not sure if I'm explaining in a way that will make sense to anyone but me!
posted by treepour at 11:06 AM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by treepour at 11:06 AM on July 29, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hey, if we're tossing around classic sitcom recs, I'd like to put in a good word for the early seasons of Laverne and Shirley. I recently started watching old episodes on YouTube (sadly they were recently taken down) and was surprised by how well they've held up, which is something that can definitely not be said of its parent show, Happy Days.
As a child I watched both shows religiously, so in my mind, they were interchangeable. But whereas Happy Days is pure audience-pandering nostalgia, with corny jokes and lots of mugging for the cameras, L&S is comparatively subtle, with more character-driven humor, great chemistry between the two leads (both Penny Marshall and Cindy Williams are gifted physical comedians) and much less of a reliance on period-specific cultural references as a crutch for the writing. Plus on a few occasions, David Lander and Michael McKean get to perform songs from their actual stage act at the time that are surprisingly transgressive and funny.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:08 AM on July 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
As a child I watched both shows religiously, so in my mind, they were interchangeable. But whereas Happy Days is pure audience-pandering nostalgia, with corny jokes and lots of mugging for the cameras, L&S is comparatively subtle, with more character-driven humor, great chemistry between the two leads (both Penny Marshall and Cindy Williams are gifted physical comedians) and much less of a reliance on period-specific cultural references as a crutch for the writing. Plus on a few occasions, David Lander and Michael McKean get to perform songs from their actual stage act at the time that are surprisingly transgressive and funny.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:08 AM on July 29, 2021 [1 favorite]
treepour, "Indi ANA, Indi AN NA JONES! Indi ANA, Indi AN NA JONES!"
posted by Chitownfats at 3:12 PM on August 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Chitownfats at 3:12 PM on August 1, 2021 [2 favorites]
Treepour, that's because you're absolutely right:
Bewitched, Bewitched,
You've got me in your spell.
Bewitched, Bewitched,
You know your craft so well.
Before I knew what I was doing
I looked in your eyes
That brand of woo you've been brewin'
Took me by surprise.
You witch, you witch,
One thing is for sure.
That stuff you pitch
Just hasn't got a cure.
My heart was under lock and key,
But somehow it got unhitched.
I never thought that I could be had
But now I'm caught and I'm kinda glad
To be Bewitched.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:01 AM on August 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
Bewitched, Bewitched,
You've got me in your spell.
Bewitched, Bewitched,
You know your craft so well.
Before I knew what I was doing
I looked in your eyes
That brand of woo you've been brewin'
Took me by surprise.
You witch, you witch,
One thing is for sure.
That stuff you pitch
Just hasn't got a cure.
My heart was under lock and key,
But somehow it got unhitched.
I never thought that I could be had
But now I'm caught and I'm kinda glad
To be Bewitched.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:01 AM on August 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
REALLY I_Love_Bananas?!? I had no idea!
posted by treepour at 3:50 PM on August 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by treepour at 3:50 PM on August 2, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by pxe2000 at 2:28 AM on July 27, 2021 [21 favorites]