How many COVID rage incidents are caused by COVID itself?
October 26, 2021 8:27 AM Subscribe
Three California teens developed severe psychiatric symptoms after COVID. Here's what scientists say about the cases. "Spinal taps revealed anti-neural antibodies in the spinal fluid of two of the teens. But instead of attacking a viral invader as antibodies are supposed to do, they were mistakenly targeting the brain."
The symptoms varied: rage and aggression, psychosis, brain fog, elation, depression, suicidal ideation, paranoia, loss of working memory, and more. Some recovered more than others with steroid and immunoglobulin treatments.
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Which got me thinking... How many of the crazy incidents relating to COVID and masking (which can be called "COVID rage") are caused by COVID itself?
I'm not linking to all the incidents, but off top of my head I can think of:
* Nurse punched by husband who's enraged because wife got vaccinated without permission
* Antimasker decided to literally PISS on the fast-food counter when told to mask up
Thoughts?
The symptoms varied: rage and aggression, psychosis, brain fog, elation, depression, suicidal ideation, paranoia, loss of working memory, and more. Some recovered more than others with steroid and immunoglobulin treatments.
-----
Which got me thinking... How many of the crazy incidents relating to COVID and masking (which can be called "COVID rage") are caused by COVID itself?
I'm not linking to all the incidents, but off top of my head I can think of:
* Nurse punched by husband who's enraged because wife got vaccinated without permission
* Antimasker decided to literally PISS on the fast-food counter when told to mask up
Thoughts?
This post was deleted for the following reason: Post is a question and it's editorializing the source. -- loup
I'm not sure we need to posit a COVID-related cause for these people's actions when the likelihood was that they were already assholes, but they have been unleashed and have been given social license by their propaganda puppet-masters. They've been liberated to be their true selves -- aggrieved, put-upon, freedom-loving and persecuted. Can you imagine how freeing it must be to have been given license to do and say the things you always felt, but you had to keep under tight wraps for fear of social sanction? It must be intoxicating, and that intoxication surely lowers their inhibitions to "defend themselves" against the people who are "infringing on their freedoms."
Occam's razor applies, here.
posted by tclark at 8:38 AM on October 26, 2021 [20 favorites]
Occam's razor applies, here.
posted by tclark at 8:38 AM on October 26, 2021 [20 favorites]
The paper in question: Anti–SARS-CoV-2 and Autoantibody Profiles in the Cerebrospinal Fluid of 3 Teenaged Patients With COVID-19 and Subacute Neuropsychiatric Symptoms.
Appears to be Open Access, unlike the SF Chronicle article. Note the Limitations section:
Appears to be Open Access, unlike the SF Chronicle article. Note the Limitations section:
This study has limitations. This study was an uncontrolled convenience sample with a small sample size. Patients 1 and 2 had preexisting neuropsychiatric symptoms. We cannot rule out that patients 1 and 2 improved independent of immunotherapy, owing either to concurrent treatment with psychiatric medications or to the passage of time. It is unclear whether these antineural antibodies are pathogenic or specific to these clinical syndromes.posted by zamboni at 8:48 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
In the article they mention mood swings, agression, and paranoia. There's definitely been a rise in conspiratorial thinking in the US. But it's just such a small study - only 3 people - that you can't really draw any conclusions except that psychiatric doctors who know their patients had COVID should be aware of this and possibly testing for it.
posted by subdee at 8:48 AM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by subdee at 8:48 AM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Antimasker decided to literally PISS on the fast-food counter when told to mask up
Having worked good service, I have no problem believing that this would happen independent of covid.
posted by corey flood at 8:57 AM on October 26, 2021 [14 favorites]
Having worked good service, I have no problem believing that this would happen independent of covid.
posted by corey flood at 8:57 AM on October 26, 2021 [14 favorites]
There are already quite a few studies cataloguing post COVID symptoms and most of them show fatigue, brain fog, and related symptoms are the most common (as well as respiratory symptoms), while symptoms like paranoia, psychosis, etc are a lot less common. We also know that other post-viral and post-infectious illnesses tend to cause similar long-term symptoms.
But rarer cases like these do tend to get written up in news articles a lot more.
posted by ssg at 8:59 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
But rarer cases like these do tend to get written up in news articles a lot more.
posted by ssg at 8:59 AM on October 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
The symptoms sound a lot like anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis.
COVID does apparently attack the ovaries in some women who are infected, and maybe this is similar, but the article does not specify sex, and anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis is rare among men.
posted by jamjam at 9:22 AM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
COVID does apparently attack the ovaries in some women who are infected, and maybe this is similar, but the article does not specify sex, and anti-NMDA receptor encephalitis is rare among men.
posted by jamjam at 9:22 AM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
How many of the crazy incidents relating to COVID and masking (which can be called "COVID rage") are caused by COVID itself?
so 1) crazy is an ableist term and it'd be nice if we stopped using it to connote instances of abnormal behavior
2) because of the stigma surrounding mental health, particularly with personality disorders (PD) and psychosis, there's evidence that things like borderline and anti-social PD are underdiagnosed:
Personality disorders are underdiagnosed. When people with personality disorders seek treatment, their chief complaints are often of depression or anxiety rather than of the manifestations of their personality disorder
it should be noted that the underdiagnosis is for people seeking treatment for depression/anxiety already and that an estimated 60%+ of people who have anxious/depressive symptoms don't ever seek treatment
3) we live in a world where we have police brutality, war, a military-industrial complex, mass environmental pollution, mass displacement, vitriolic hate towards the unhoused, where acts of racism and violence occur every single day and have occurred without fail for millenia. chalking up instances of irrational violence perpetrated by the public to mental illness rather than people acting in accordance to the shitty, oppressive systems and cultural understandings we have seems... foolish
it's certainly uglier and tougher to live in a reality full of suffering, of totally unjustified and irrational cruelty. how we react to this world, and whether or not we take responsibility for the society we live in VS walling ourselves off and imagining historic, unalterable phenomena as the cause for all of this suffering is an ethical decision we make, whether consciously or not
posted by paimapi at 9:41 AM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
so 1) crazy is an ableist term and it'd be nice if we stopped using it to connote instances of abnormal behavior
2) because of the stigma surrounding mental health, particularly with personality disorders (PD) and psychosis, there's evidence that things like borderline and anti-social PD are underdiagnosed:
Personality disorders are underdiagnosed. When people with personality disorders seek treatment, their chief complaints are often of depression or anxiety rather than of the manifestations of their personality disorder
it should be noted that the underdiagnosis is for people seeking treatment for depression/anxiety already and that an estimated 60%+ of people who have anxious/depressive symptoms don't ever seek treatment
3) we live in a world where we have police brutality, war, a military-industrial complex, mass environmental pollution, mass displacement, vitriolic hate towards the unhoused, where acts of racism and violence occur every single day and have occurred without fail for millenia. chalking up instances of irrational violence perpetrated by the public to mental illness rather than people acting in accordance to the shitty, oppressive systems and cultural understandings we have seems... foolish
it's certainly uglier and tougher to live in a reality full of suffering, of totally unjustified and irrational cruelty. how we react to this world, and whether or not we take responsibility for the society we live in VS walling ourselves off and imagining historic, unalterable phenomena as the cause for all of this suffering is an ethical decision we make, whether consciously or not
posted by paimapi at 9:41 AM on October 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
Here's a paywall-free link for the article
posted by signsofrain at 9:46 AM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by signsofrain at 9:46 AM on October 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
I haven't thought seriously about your particular question, but I have been thinking about how wide-scale brain fog and memory loss could affect the political affiliations of a large number of people... Since political affilitation in the US can be predicted by personality traits, with conscientiousness being a big Republican marker and openness being a big Democratic marker, for instance.
Not to pick on you, but just a reminder that folks with COVID related brain-fog and memory loss are in fact reading your comments, and that nobody likes to be told they're a scary thought experiment.
But look, I've been suffering from poor emotional regulation during my recovery, it sucks. Nothing as bad as the teens studied, but still it was a lot and had a really deep impact on my family life. It's not like I'm angry all the time, but more like my body reacts to outside stimulation in a much more intense way then I'm used to, and takes a much longer time to ratchet back down to a non-stressed state. So it's easy for my brain to think "Oh I must be really ______ right now", and start looking for something to feel that emotion about. Combined with the general awfulness of the other symptoms, it's very easy to just be a grouchy asshole if I'm not careful. I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I've been able to do some tele-therapy, and self aware enough to know that I needed too. It's helped a lot to figure out how to be aware enough of the situation to be stop and ask myself if I'm really feeling that way, or maybe take time away from the situation to let myself reset. There's a lot of people who don't have that self awareness, so yeah getting the word out there that folks could be having these kinds of symptoms is probably a good thing.
It's just... this framing of turning other people's real life trauma and illness into a the subject of college dorm style BSing really only accomplishes making folks like me have a worse day, and like I've got enough crap in my life that I'm not exactly complaining that my days are TOO good, you know?
posted by Gygesringtone at 10:07 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Not to pick on you, but just a reminder that folks with COVID related brain-fog and memory loss are in fact reading your comments, and that nobody likes to be told they're a scary thought experiment.
But look, I've been suffering from poor emotional regulation during my recovery, it sucks. Nothing as bad as the teens studied, but still it was a lot and had a really deep impact on my family life. It's not like I'm angry all the time, but more like my body reacts to outside stimulation in a much more intense way then I'm used to, and takes a much longer time to ratchet back down to a non-stressed state. So it's easy for my brain to think "Oh I must be really ______ right now", and start looking for something to feel that emotion about. Combined with the general awfulness of the other symptoms, it's very easy to just be a grouchy asshole if I'm not careful. I'm lucky enough to be in a position where I've been able to do some tele-therapy, and self aware enough to know that I needed too. It's helped a lot to figure out how to be aware enough of the situation to be stop and ask myself if I'm really feeling that way, or maybe take time away from the situation to let myself reset. There's a lot of people who don't have that self awareness, so yeah getting the word out there that folks could be having these kinds of symptoms is probably a good thing.
It's just... this framing of turning other people's real life trauma and illness into a the subject of college dorm style BSing really only accomplishes making folks like me have a worse day, and like I've got enough crap in my life that I'm not exactly complaining that my days are TOO good, you know?
posted by Gygesringtone at 10:07 AM on October 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Occam's razor doesn't apply when talking about the fact that this virus does a lot of damage in ways we don't fully understand. It's not letting someone get away with something to want to study how their behavior could be affected by a dangerous virus that a lot of people got exposed to. It just feels unusual to read about someone studying something that really needs studying right at this moment.
posted by bleep at 10:25 AM on October 26, 2021
posted by bleep at 10:25 AM on October 26, 2021
Which got me thinking... How many of the crazy incidents relating to COVID and masking (which can be called "COVID rage") are caused by COVID itself?
Occam's razor doesn't apply when talking about the fact that this virus does a lot of damage in ways we don't fully understand.
I was applying Occam's razor to anecdotal accounts of people acting out with violence when A) a woman chose to get vaccinated without her husband's "permission" and B) an anti-masker pissing on a fast food counter.
Research into the neurological effects of COVID are desperately needed, but I firmly believe Occam's razor applies in the vast, vast majority of similar cases to these, and there is no need to sweep politically motivated belligerent and violent behavior into the same category as COVID-related neurological and psychological effects -- far from it. I think adding these instances of petty terrorism needlessly clouds the discussion and complicates the investigation.
posted by tclark at 10:38 AM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Occam's razor doesn't apply when talking about the fact that this virus does a lot of damage in ways we don't fully understand.
I was applying Occam's razor to anecdotal accounts of people acting out with violence when A) a woman chose to get vaccinated without her husband's "permission" and B) an anti-masker pissing on a fast food counter.
Research into the neurological effects of COVID are desperately needed, but I firmly believe Occam's razor applies in the vast, vast majority of similar cases to these, and there is no need to sweep politically motivated belligerent and violent behavior into the same category as COVID-related neurological and psychological effects -- far from it. I think adding these instances of petty terrorism needlessly clouds the discussion and complicates the investigation.
posted by tclark at 10:38 AM on October 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Gygesringtone, I apologize. My dad also has the long term COVID side affects and he's been getting more conservative... But you're right that the speculation is harmful and I'm sorry for not thinking about that enough before commenting carelessly. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
Recently many many students at the school where I work are out sick with COVID, and coming back to school after getting medical clearance. I could probably be a lot more careful in general about how I talk about this.
posted by subdee at 10:46 AM on October 26, 2021
Recently many many students at the school where I work are out sick with COVID, and coming back to school after getting medical clearance. I could probably be a lot more careful in general about how I talk about this.
posted by subdee at 10:46 AM on October 26, 2021
Not to derail, but …
posted by sudogeek at 10:46 AM on October 26, 2021
conscientiousness being a big Republican marker and openness being a big Democratic markerCitation? This seems false ime. Of course, that may be because of my years in US health care where conscientiousness is nearly universal and political leanings are at least equally split but, again ime, a center to left view is more common.
posted by sudogeek at 10:46 AM on October 26, 2021
Here's one on links between the big five personality traits, and political affiliation.
posted by subdee at 10:51 AM on October 26, 2021
posted by subdee at 10:51 AM on October 26, 2021
Anecdotally, I know of one case where COVID triggered a major psychotic break about two weeks after a positive test (with the official symptoms being mild).The woman in question told me about it personally and it sounded horrific, including intrusive thoughts and attitudes that are absolutely opposite of what she usually believes - in particular she's an extremely family-first person and she thought her family were trying to kill her.
It can attack so many organs, the brain is really no surprise. And long-COVID people are in a vulnerable state to any manipulation.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:14 AM on October 26, 2021
It can attack so many organs, the brain is really no surprise. And long-COVID people are in a vulnerable state to any manipulation.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:14 AM on October 26, 2021
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It's pretty scary to speculate about, and it's just speculation without evidence, so I try not to think about it.
posted by subdee at 8:37 AM on October 26, 2021