"It's like putting your hand on the third rail of the universe."
February 27, 2022 4:49 PM Subscribe
"If you play Go seriously there is a chance that you will get exposed to this experience that is kind of like nothing else on the planet. Go is putting you in a place where you're always at the very farthest reaches of your capacity." --Frank Lantz, director of the NYU game center, from the opening of the AlphaGo documentary. The film chronicles the historic Go match between DeepMind's AlphaGo and Lee Sedol in 2016, and is available in its entirety on YouTube.
Go is a two player abstract strategy game, where the goal is to surround a larger area of the board than your opponent. The basics of the rules are easy to learn, but they give way to complex emergent properties, and the result is a wonderfully deep game. Originating in China, where it's called weiqi/围棋, which means "surrounding game", it was popularized in the west via Japan, which is where English borrows "Go" from (igo/囲碁), but it's also popular in Korea (baduk/바둑).
If you'd prefer to learn from a video, this one from professional player Michael Redmond is a good, clear explanation in less than 15 minutes. If that's too long, InSente's video is only 5 minutes long, and Mikkgo covers every rule in a single, blistering minute. But is it any fun to play? Shut Up And Sit Down's Quinns tried to answer that in his review for players of contemporary board games. His conclusion? Maybe. The video is worth watching in full because he gets to the heart of what makes Go compelling, but runs into the problem of niche hobbies: no one to play with but strangers and AI.
Speaking of AI, let's address that elephant in the room. Since Ke Jie's defeat in 2017 (previously) and AlphaZero's mastery of not just Go but also chess and shogi (previously, previously), there have been some developments in computer Go programs. KataGo is one of the strongest open source Go programs, and can run on a laptop with or without a beefy GPU. KaTrain wraps it up in an easy to use GUI with beginner friendly features like calibrated difficulty levels, and can also be used to review your games. But maybe you'd like to study the deep learning techniques behind AlphaGo-era AI, in which case there's a book for you.
What about playing with those strangers? There are a lot of options, so NY Institute of Go's Ryan Li walks you through the various Go servers. These days the Online Go Server is a great way to play right in your browser and supports both live and correspondence games. KGS is still around though, and has a web interface too. Still, playing on Asian servers like Fox and Tygem is popular because the large player populations mean it's easy to get a match. If you're looking for in person opponents, BadukClub's map is a great resource for local players and meetups.
Once you've learned the rules, playing lots of games (maybe on the smaller 9x9 board) is the best way to get a feel for things. But once you've lost your first 50-100 games it might be time for some structured learning. You could do a lot worse than starting with this beginner lecture series from Shawn Ray (Clossius). After that, there's a wealth of great content out there, from basics with Dwyrin, modern Go with Nick Sibicky, or post-AI joseki with Yeonwoo. For better or worse, one of the surest ways to get stronger is by solving lots of Go problems (tsumego). Luckily there are countless sites and apps out there for puzzles (English language guide for the last link). Of course there are also lots of books and interactive e-books. But maybe you just need advice on how to teach your friends.
Go is a game with thousands of years of culture, so there is more to it than just playing games and leveling up. Maybe you missed the early Go boom caused by the anime Hikaru no Go, about a boy possessed by the spirit of a Heian-era Go player. It was more about the culture of Go in Japan than about the game itself, but it did feature a series of short tutorials in every episode. If anime is not your thing, maybe the recent Chinese remake of Hikaru no Go as a live action drama or the Korean action movie The Divine Move would be of interest. If these are too contemporary for your tastes, Go is the subject of many Japanese wood block prints (previously). The British Museum's website has high resolution scans of many, including Utagawa Kuniyoshi's famous Earth Spider triptychs. But if ukiyo-e are too refined for you, enjoy the state of the art in Go memes.
Finally, one more quote about the sublime nature of the game from Frank Lantz, this time from a lecture about Go and poker called Life and Death and Middle Pair: "Go is like a single note, a sound created by striking a tiny corner of the universe and it reverberates forever and fills your head with something that's like silence."
Go has been covered many times on Metafilter, but mostly in the context of AI. Since one of the most recent posts I could find that centered on the game itself was a long time ago, I figured the Doubles Jubilee is a good time to revisit it.
Go is a two player abstract strategy game, where the goal is to surround a larger area of the board than your opponent. The basics of the rules are easy to learn, but they give way to complex emergent properties, and the result is a wonderfully deep game. Originating in China, where it's called weiqi/围棋, which means "surrounding game", it was popularized in the west via Japan, which is where English borrows "Go" from (igo/囲碁), but it's also popular in Korea (baduk/바둑).
If you'd prefer to learn from a video, this one from professional player Michael Redmond is a good, clear explanation in less than 15 minutes. If that's too long, InSente's video is only 5 minutes long, and Mikkgo covers every rule in a single, blistering minute. But is it any fun to play? Shut Up And Sit Down's Quinns tried to answer that in his review for players of contemporary board games. His conclusion? Maybe. The video is worth watching in full because he gets to the heart of what makes Go compelling, but runs into the problem of niche hobbies: no one to play with but strangers and AI.
Speaking of AI, let's address that elephant in the room. Since Ke Jie's defeat in 2017 (previously) and AlphaZero's mastery of not just Go but also chess and shogi (previously, previously), there have been some developments in computer Go programs. KataGo is one of the strongest open source Go programs, and can run on a laptop with or without a beefy GPU. KaTrain wraps it up in an easy to use GUI with beginner friendly features like calibrated difficulty levels, and can also be used to review your games. But maybe you'd like to study the deep learning techniques behind AlphaGo-era AI, in which case there's a book for you.
What about playing with those strangers? There are a lot of options, so NY Institute of Go's Ryan Li walks you through the various Go servers. These days the Online Go Server is a great way to play right in your browser and supports both live and correspondence games. KGS is still around though, and has a web interface too. Still, playing on Asian servers like Fox and Tygem is popular because the large player populations mean it's easy to get a match. If you're looking for in person opponents, BadukClub's map is a great resource for local players and meetups.
Once you've learned the rules, playing lots of games (maybe on the smaller 9x9 board) is the best way to get a feel for things. But once you've lost your first 50-100 games it might be time for some structured learning. You could do a lot worse than starting with this beginner lecture series from Shawn Ray (Clossius). After that, there's a wealth of great content out there, from basics with Dwyrin, modern Go with Nick Sibicky, or post-AI joseki with Yeonwoo. For better or worse, one of the surest ways to get stronger is by solving lots of Go problems (tsumego). Luckily there are countless sites and apps out there for puzzles (English language guide for the last link). Of course there are also lots of books and interactive e-books. But maybe you just need advice on how to teach your friends.
Go is a game with thousands of years of culture, so there is more to it than just playing games and leveling up. Maybe you missed the early Go boom caused by the anime Hikaru no Go, about a boy possessed by the spirit of a Heian-era Go player. It was more about the culture of Go in Japan than about the game itself, but it did feature a series of short tutorials in every episode. If anime is not your thing, maybe the recent Chinese remake of Hikaru no Go as a live action drama or the Korean action movie The Divine Move would be of interest. If these are too contemporary for your tastes, Go is the subject of many Japanese wood block prints (previously). The British Museum's website has high resolution scans of many, including Utagawa Kuniyoshi's famous Earth Spider triptychs. But if ukiyo-e are too refined for you, enjoy the state of the art in Go memes.
Finally, one more quote about the sublime nature of the game from Frank Lantz, this time from a lecture about Go and poker called Life and Death and Middle Pair: "Go is like a single note, a sound created by striking a tiny corner of the universe and it reverberates forever and fills your head with something that's like silence."
Go has been covered many times on Metafilter, but mostly in the context of AI. Since one of the most recent posts I could find that centered on the game itself was a long time ago, I figured the Doubles Jubilee is a good time to revisit it.
I used to be quite into go and still have my 2" Tibetan spruce board and a set of decent stones. I really enjoy how unconstrained the game is, and how play can wander around the big 19x19 space. But while I once read Sensei's Library daily I haven't looked at it in years. After I learned that the best way to get better was to memorize countless joseki, the game lost some of its magic and became more seemingly tedious. It's why I don't like puzzles, becausse they have known answers. When a friend and I were playing regularly, we once boggled the much more competitive Dr. Indexy when we would regularly stop a game that had become definitive and go back to key moves to see how the game would have developed with different choices. In most things I'm more about exploring possibilities rather than winning. Finite and Infinite Games really resonated with me :)
posted by indexy at 5:45 PM on February 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by indexy at 5:45 PM on February 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is one of my favorite documentaries of all time. Please watch it!!!!
posted by capnsue at 6:49 PM on February 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by capnsue at 6:49 PM on February 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
I've played it a few times with a friend. Go is great fun, but it's definitely a long game--set aside many hours for play--and the rules can be a little grey. At least, my amateur understanding of the rules had my friends and I asking "Can we do this....?" a lot.
posted by zardoz at 7:04 PM on February 27, 2022
posted by zardoz at 7:04 PM on February 27, 2022
I recently watched Alpha Go again, perhaps for the fourth time. It is surprisingly emotional. I cry when I watch it. It is also a surprisingly optimistic take on the John Henry myth. Like capnsue, I really recommend you watch it, even if the topics of AI and Go do not interest you. They certainly didn't interest me before I watched this documentary.
posted by ferdydurke at 7:56 PM on February 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ferdydurke at 7:56 PM on February 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I hadn't seen that documentary before. Great stuff. I'll have to explore some of these links then learn some Go and see if I can do my part to defeat our robot overlords.
posted by col_pogo at 9:50 PM on February 27, 2022
posted by col_pogo at 9:50 PM on February 27, 2022
A simpler version of Go is Pente that we played in the 70's. It was wrapped up in a lot of silly Grecian foo foo but was so easy to learn and fun for me to play.
And there is also Grandmother’s Peg Solitaire game I should give a try!
posted by jabo at 10:37 PM on February 27, 2022
And there is also Grandmother’s Peg Solitaire game I should give a try!
posted by jabo at 10:37 PM on February 27, 2022
Fun fact about Lee Sedol - he's a self-professed big fan of Oh My Girl. Not sure why this was left out in the docu.
posted by dogstoevski at 12:55 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by dogstoevski at 12:55 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have been trying to play Go more frequently. It's been, oh, almost 15 years since I really made an effort to study and improve my game, and eventually I started getting so much anxiety over playing that I intentionally stepped back from the game for my mental health.
But Go will always be my favorite game, the best game, the most pure, interesting, artistic, and pointless game for me. A big chunk of my brain knows how to interpret the "shapes" and "movements" of pieces which are all identical and never move.
"Lose your first fifty games as fast as possible" is my favorite Go proverb, and some of the best life advice I've ever heard. When you're a beginner, it's faster to learn what doesn't work than to learn what does. And the key is learning.
When I was 20, my goal was to hit SDK - Single Digit Kyu. It was the push to 9 kyu that did me in, and I knew I didn't have the energy or interest to push to an amateur Dan ranking. Never will. But, although I don't have the skills in my brain for what stones to play, somehow I'm still in the 9-12 k skill area.
posted by rebent at 4:57 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
But Go will always be my favorite game, the best game, the most pure, interesting, artistic, and pointless game for me. A big chunk of my brain knows how to interpret the "shapes" and "movements" of pieces which are all identical and never move.
"Lose your first fifty games as fast as possible" is my favorite Go proverb, and some of the best life advice I've ever heard. When you're a beginner, it's faster to learn what doesn't work than to learn what does. And the key is learning.
When I was 20, my goal was to hit SDK - Single Digit Kyu. It was the push to 9 kyu that did me in, and I knew I didn't have the energy or interest to push to an amateur Dan ranking. Never will. But, although I don't have the skills in my brain for what stones to play, somehow I'm still in the 9-12 k skill area.
posted by rebent at 4:57 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
rebent: "Lose your first fifty games as fast as possible"
This is where I'm stuck. I've done the tsumego app thing, played against bots, but somehow haven't been able to summon the nerve to play against a human opponent! (except for a MeFite that one time)
posted by dhruva at 8:31 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is where I'm stuck. I've done the tsumego app thing, played against bots, but somehow haven't been able to summon the nerve to play against a human opponent! (except for a MeFite that one time)
posted by dhruva at 8:31 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I highly recommend that everyone, no matter their level of game experience, try out Go and similar games! Don't be intimidated by the competitive/strategic aspects highlighted by competitive play. Go can be a wonderfully relaxing, meditative puzzle at any level. For beginners who aren't super serious yet, playing with another beginner is especially great, because it can feel like a collaborative exploration game as you both figure out little tricks and insights.
A Go board can also be used like a pack of cards, in that a large variety of games can be played with it: connect-four variations, checkers variations, Ayu, Emulsion, Breakthrough, etc.
Any of these games are especially good for playing with children, beginner players, and across language/cultural barriers; you can also invent your own games and puzzles for the board. These games are usually extremely simple rule-wise but have lots of surface area for playing with strategic ideas, so even if a game gets dragged out for a long time, it's rarely boring.
posted by miniraptor at 9:50 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
A Go board can also be used like a pack of cards, in that a large variety of games can be played with it: connect-four variations, checkers variations, Ayu, Emulsion, Breakthrough, etc.
Any of these games are especially good for playing with children, beginner players, and across language/cultural barriers; you can also invent your own games and puzzles for the board. These games are usually extremely simple rule-wise but have lots of surface area for playing with strategic ideas, so even if a game gets dragged out for a long time, it's rarely boring.
posted by miniraptor at 9:50 AM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is a fantastic documentary; I bought it on Youtube, and I've watched it twice, and watched favorite scenes from it probably 10 or more times. It helps that I was once an avid Go player, and that my career has been spent either writing code, or in some capacity managing those who do.
Maybe five years before the match with Lee Sedol, I confidently proclaimed to whoever was talking at the time, that no Go program would beat a professional in our lifetime. I was sure of myself because of the math: if the problem was approached the same way that Chess programs worked at that time, there just wasn't going to be enough computing power, barring some miracle breakthrough in quantum computing or some other esoteric technology. I was entirely ignorant of neural networks, and even if I hadn't been, I still might have predicted the same thing, because Deep Mind solved some pretty thorny mathematical problems on their way to building a neural network powerful enough to pull this off.
It briefly revived my interest in playing the game, but I'm still stuck at the same level I have been for years, and I'm not willing to put in the necessary effort to improve-- form me the 1 kyu barrier is a mountain. Maybe when I retire.
But what has stayed with me is a love of watching professional games, as the professionals seek to make sense of what Alpha Zero and its imitators have taught them are superior moves. The programs can show them the moves, but have no capacity to tell them *why*; and unlike a traditional deep tree search (for example, traditional Chess programs), there's no way to examine the algorithm variable weights or scores and say, "Oh, it analyzes this position as better because of the passed pawn". So watching the pros make moves they don't understand (or don't even agree with!), such as the early 3-3 invasion, has been super interesting, and kept me watching some games on Youtube.
If Alpha Go interests you, you might look up AlphaZero and chess. They took their generic neural network (not one made for Chess, or trained for Chess, or in any way specialized), and didn't even teach it the rules; it would try to make a move, and if it was legal, it was allowed, if it wasn't legal, it wasn't allowed. They didn't program in any idea of Checkmate; the computer was simply informed if it won as the result of a move it just made. It taught itself the rules by playing a staggering amount of games against itself, and was more powerful than the until-then most powerful Chess playing program (which was basically undefeatable by a human) *within four hours*. The games it played were beautiful; a game we thought we knew almost everything about, was shown to have still unexplored areas. There are some games against the strongest Chess program at that time which are literally laugh-outloud funny. AlphaZero was fine giving up material and making sacrifices, as if it were playing a swashbuckling style from a hundred years prior, because it was capable of creating positions in which the other player's extra pieces were locked down with nowhere useful to move. Their were a number of games in which an opposing Rook, or even Rook Bishop pair, were still in their starting squares when the game was 2/3 over. Fun stuff!
posted by andrewgr at 1:06 PM on February 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Maybe five years before the match with Lee Sedol, I confidently proclaimed to whoever was talking at the time, that no Go program would beat a professional in our lifetime. I was sure of myself because of the math: if the problem was approached the same way that Chess programs worked at that time, there just wasn't going to be enough computing power, barring some miracle breakthrough in quantum computing or some other esoteric technology. I was entirely ignorant of neural networks, and even if I hadn't been, I still might have predicted the same thing, because Deep Mind solved some pretty thorny mathematical problems on their way to building a neural network powerful enough to pull this off.
It briefly revived my interest in playing the game, but I'm still stuck at the same level I have been for years, and I'm not willing to put in the necessary effort to improve-- form me the 1 kyu barrier is a mountain. Maybe when I retire.
But what has stayed with me is a love of watching professional games, as the professionals seek to make sense of what Alpha Zero and its imitators have taught them are superior moves. The programs can show them the moves, but have no capacity to tell them *why*; and unlike a traditional deep tree search (for example, traditional Chess programs), there's no way to examine the algorithm variable weights or scores and say, "Oh, it analyzes this position as better because of the passed pawn". So watching the pros make moves they don't understand (or don't even agree with!), such as the early 3-3 invasion, has been super interesting, and kept me watching some games on Youtube.
If Alpha Go interests you, you might look up AlphaZero and chess. They took their generic neural network (not one made for Chess, or trained for Chess, or in any way specialized), and didn't even teach it the rules; it would try to make a move, and if it was legal, it was allowed, if it wasn't legal, it wasn't allowed. They didn't program in any idea of Checkmate; the computer was simply informed if it won as the result of a move it just made. It taught itself the rules by playing a staggering amount of games against itself, and was more powerful than the until-then most powerful Chess playing program (which was basically undefeatable by a human) *within four hours*. The games it played were beautiful; a game we thought we knew almost everything about, was shown to have still unexplored areas. There are some games against the strongest Chess program at that time which are literally laugh-outloud funny. AlphaZero was fine giving up material and making sacrifices, as if it were playing a swashbuckling style from a hundred years prior, because it was capable of creating positions in which the other player's extra pieces were locked down with nowhere useful to move. Their were a number of games in which an opposing Rook, or even Rook Bishop pair, were still in their starting squares when the game was 2/3 over. Fun stuff!
posted by andrewgr at 1:06 PM on February 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Go is the only game that I think would have a chance of interesting alien visitors.
posted by hypnogogue at 1:29 PM on February 28, 2022
posted by hypnogogue at 1:29 PM on February 28, 2022
Go is a major theme in one of my favorite movies, Pi.
posted by bendy at 2:14 PM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bendy at 2:14 PM on February 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
AndrewGR - I am interested in learning more about how strategy has changed as a result of AI players
posted by rebent at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2022
posted by rebent at 2:32 PM on February 28, 2022
In 2016 when the game in Korea was playing I got very interested in this game Waiqi, But I lost all the interest with time. This post has opened my interest and with all the information given, I got hooked once again. Thank you for posting this great article.
posted by CRESTA at 2:33 PM on February 28, 2022
posted by CRESTA at 2:33 PM on February 28, 2022
I'm glad some people have enjoyed this post because I almost didn't make it, thinking that a FPP about Go in 2022 might be ignored, and it seems like such a frivolous topic at the moment.
dhruva: haven't been able to summon the nerve to play against a human opponent
I sympathize with this a lot, I have pretty bad competition anxiety playing online with strangers. if I had any good resources to help with it, I definitely would have included them
rebent: I am interested in learning more about how strategy has changed as a result of AI players
I wasn't sure if you're asking about chess or go, but if you're asking about go, here's a few links.
two professionals on the early 3-3 invasion: Michael Redmond and Go Pro Yeonwoo, both of these videos go into some of the reasons why this wasn't played before, and what AI showed was wrong about that
posted by okonomichiyaki at 3:50 PM on February 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
dhruva: haven't been able to summon the nerve to play against a human opponent
I sympathize with this a lot, I have pretty bad competition anxiety playing online with strangers. if I had any good resources to help with it, I definitely would have included them
rebent: I am interested in learning more about how strategy has changed as a result of AI players
I wasn't sure if you're asking about chess or go, but if you're asking about go, here's a few links.
two professionals on the early 3-3 invasion: Michael Redmond and Go Pro Yeonwoo, both of these videos go into some of the reasons why this wasn't played before, and what AI showed was wrong about that
posted by okonomichiyaki at 3:50 PM on February 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Question: There is any place in the web where one or all those games are step by step, play by play indicated (shown), so you can use them to replicate those on a board. That probably may help - by seen the strategies used - to learn more about the game? - Something similar to the Chess games played by great players. Thank you.
posted by CRESTA at 5:17 PM on February 28, 2022
posted by CRESTA at 5:17 PM on February 28, 2022
I know thread sitting is discouraged, but I hope posting a few more links is okay!
CRESTA: There is any place in the web where one or all those games are step by step, play by play indicated (shown), so you can use them to replicate those on a board.
I wasn't sure if you're asking specifically about the games played by AlphaGo against Lee Sedol, but if that's the case you can find the games here with some commentary by Fan Hui (featured in the doc) and other pros. The original live commentary is still on YT, but it's real time so close to 4 hours long, so maybe these short contemporary summaries would be better.
if you're asking about pro games generally, there's of course lots of places to find game records (kifu). Waltheri is a pattern search engine, you can explore a sequence of moves and find pro games where that occurred, but it also makes its database available for browsing. Sensei's Library has list of some famous games, and Go4Go has a (paid) database, some with commentary.
That's going to be the challenge with these games, without commentary beginners (or even intermediate amateurs) are going to have a hard time making sense of some of the moves. conventional wisdom is that beginners shouldn't spend a lot of time on pro games, because they'll get more benefit from playing games and doing puzzles. personally, I play Go not only because it's a challenging mind sport, but also because of the cultural history, and replaying old games is a way to engage with that, so I wouldn't discourage it. Those interested in Japanese history might enjoy the books Invincible or The Master of Go
If you're a brand new player just looking to get a feel for what a Go game is like, I think this might be the best option, a two part video from Michael Redmond where he talks through a 19x19 game and explores moves and discusses their signifigance. part one, part two
posted by okonomichiyaki at 6:11 AM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
CRESTA: There is any place in the web where one or all those games are step by step, play by play indicated (shown), so you can use them to replicate those on a board.
I wasn't sure if you're asking specifically about the games played by AlphaGo against Lee Sedol, but if that's the case you can find the games here with some commentary by Fan Hui (featured in the doc) and other pros. The original live commentary is still on YT, but it's real time so close to 4 hours long, so maybe these short contemporary summaries would be better.
if you're asking about pro games generally, there's of course lots of places to find game records (kifu). Waltheri is a pattern search engine, you can explore a sequence of moves and find pro games where that occurred, but it also makes its database available for browsing. Sensei's Library has list of some famous games, and Go4Go has a (paid) database, some with commentary.
That's going to be the challenge with these games, without commentary beginners (or even intermediate amateurs) are going to have a hard time making sense of some of the moves. conventional wisdom is that beginners shouldn't spend a lot of time on pro games, because they'll get more benefit from playing games and doing puzzles. personally, I play Go not only because it's a challenging mind sport, but also because of the cultural history, and replaying old games is a way to engage with that, so I wouldn't discourage it. Those interested in Japanese history might enjoy the books Invincible or The Master of Go
If you're a brand new player just looking to get a feel for what a Go game is like, I think this might be the best option, a two part video from Michael Redmond where he talks through a 19x19 game and explores moves and discusses their signifigance. part one, part two
posted by okonomichiyaki at 6:11 AM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Superb post, okonomichiyaki, thank you.
I couldn't find an existing MeFiGo group on OGS (online-go.com), so I just created one.
MeFiGo.
Come join, if you too are on OGS. We could... play Go? All welcome.
posted by motty at 6:20 PM on March 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
I couldn't find an existing MeFiGo group on OGS (online-go.com), so I just created one.
MeFiGo.
Come join, if you too are on OGS. We could... play Go? All welcome.
posted by motty at 6:20 PM on March 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
To: okonomichiyaki : Yes! Thank you; my request was about those games played by AlphaGo against Lee Sebol and you have provided the location where I can access those games. Once again Thank you so much. I do have this post as one of my favorites so I can access the information when I need it.
posted by CRESTA at 1:52 PM on March 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by CRESTA at 1:52 PM on March 2, 2022 [1 favorite]
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The culture around it also includes wonderful stories, rich in drama: such as the Blood-Vomiting Game. I wish I could wrap my head around it - I've made a few attempts to get into it more seriously, but can't seem to develop a proper sensibility around shape.
posted by curious.jp at 5:12 PM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]