I’m better at this than you are at everything you do.
April 27, 2022 6:26 AM Subscribe
Damon Young is a writer, critic, humorist, satirist, and professional Black person. He is also a contributing columnist at the Washington Post, and people send emails to comment on his columns. One of those comments was a complaint about his use of "ain't" and "them white boys". Young was not having it.
God damn that's good. Young takes you on an absolute tour in that piece.
posted by entropone at 6:47 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by entropone at 6:47 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
You would know that writing a thing like that just proves you’re a living anachronism. But not in a romantic way, like a streetcar or a Ferris wheel. But like cigarette smoke indoors.Beautiful.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:49 AM on April 27, 2022 [39 favorites]
YES.
posted by cooker girl at 6:49 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by cooker girl at 6:49 AM on April 27, 2022
This was amazing on so many levels. A great takedown to be sure. But also a great peel back of what it can feel like to be skilled in a creative field (or in any field probably...but I'm in a creative field.) This part hit me right in the graphic design envy/anxiety/admiration junction:
But I’m forever awed by the writers who sometimes make me feel like what I do is just typing. You can’t not be awestruck if you’re good at this, because you know what greatness looks like.....I’m most stunned by the writers, like Raven Leilani, Cole Arthur Riley, Doreen St. Félix and Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah, who are so preternaturally gifted and so young that my calling them peers feels like one of them lies you wish were true.
posted by Wink Ricketts at 6:52 AM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
But I’m forever awed by the writers who sometimes make me feel like what I do is just typing. You can’t not be awestruck if you’re good at this, because you know what greatness looks like.....I’m most stunned by the writers, like Raven Leilani, Cole Arthur Riley, Doreen St. Félix and Nana Kwame Adjei-Brenyah, who are so preternaturally gifted and so young that my calling them peers feels like one of them lies you wish were true.
posted by Wink Ricketts at 6:52 AM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
posted by gee_the_riot at 6:52 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by gee_the_riot at 6:52 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was dithering on whether to post this. (I've never made a post on the Blue before, so I feel super anxious about it.)
Nonsense attitudes like the letter-writer's sometimes demand a response, and this is a darn good one.
As always, ignore the comments beneath the article.
posted by xenization at 6:53 AM on April 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
Nonsense attitudes like the letter-writer's sometimes demand a response, and this is a darn good one.
As always, ignore the comments beneath the article.
posted by xenization at 6:53 AM on April 27, 2022 [26 favorites]
Reading this, I was thinking of students who I want to show this to. Damn, this is good.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:55 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by Ghidorah at 6:55 AM on April 27, 2022
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
Yes, it's fun to stand up to racists. And important!
posted by entropone at 6:59 AM on April 27, 2022 [65 favorites]
Yes, it's fun to stand up to racists. And important!
posted by entropone at 6:59 AM on April 27, 2022 [65 favorites]
I am glad you did post this, it was wonderful, thanks!
posted by Grither at 7:00 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by Grither at 7:00 AM on April 27, 2022
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
Why yes, it is fun that he held bigoted nonsense and the person who spoke it to task in a pointed and amusing manner. My question to you is why do you think that this is a bad thing, and why are you so unsure of this position that you felt it necessary to wrap it in euphemistic language?
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:17 AM on April 27, 2022 [27 favorites]
Why yes, it is fun that he held bigoted nonsense and the person who spoke it to task in a pointed and amusing manner. My question to you is why do you think that this is a bad thing, and why are you so unsure of this position that you felt it necessary to wrap it in euphemistic language?
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:17 AM on April 27, 2022 [27 favorites]
Just a plug for anyone who liked this to immediately go read his essay collection "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Blacker."
posted by minervous at 7:21 AM on April 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by minervous at 7:21 AM on April 27, 2022 [10 favorites]
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
Yeah, it is. Because despite you trying so desperately to equate the two things, they aren't at all the same thing.
For one thing, that missive to Young was a bog-standard way of dismissing and denigrating Black people -- well, all non-upper-middle-class nonwhite nonmale nonstraight noncis etc. etc. etc. people, but this particular case was absolute goddamn* textbook Black Person Dismissal And Denigration 101. And wrapping it in "I like you, but..." terms is like the professor giving a glowing recommendation for enrollment in Performative Fake Allyship (Honors) 102.
For another thing, commenting on the way Black people are treated is literally. Damon. Young's. job. It is why he gets a Contributing Columnist credit with the Washington Post. It is the basis for his book. This other person is not employed by the Society To Get Those People To Talk More Like Us. This other person is just some random person who decided for no reason whatsoever that his policing of a Black man's language was so important that he needed to type it all out and click "Send".
And last of all, Young didn't name this dude. He could have. He absolutely, 100 percent could have. Some people would say that he should have, that he had a moral duty to shine a light on this particular cockroach to see him scuttle. But he didn't. Because he's not "mean". He's just trying to show people what he has to deal with, and maybe some of those people, maybe even you, might be able to learn a lesson from this.
That's some of the differences.
* -- I specifically included this naughty word so you could haughtily dismiss my entire point because of its tone. You're welcome.
posted by Etrigan at 7:27 AM on April 27, 2022 [63 favorites]
Yeah, it is. Because despite you trying so desperately to equate the two things, they aren't at all the same thing.
For one thing, that missive to Young was a bog-standard way of dismissing and denigrating Black people -- well, all non-upper-middle-class nonwhite nonmale nonstraight noncis etc. etc. etc. people, but this particular case was absolute goddamn* textbook Black Person Dismissal And Denigration 101. And wrapping it in "I like you, but..." terms is like the professor giving a glowing recommendation for enrollment in Performative Fake Allyship (Honors) 102.
For another thing, commenting on the way Black people are treated is literally. Damon. Young's. job. It is why he gets a Contributing Columnist credit with the Washington Post. It is the basis for his book. This other person is not employed by the Society To Get Those People To Talk More Like Us. This other person is just some random person who decided for no reason whatsoever that his policing of a Black man's language was so important that he needed to type it all out and click "Send".
And last of all, Young didn't name this dude. He could have. He absolutely, 100 percent could have. Some people would say that he should have, that he had a moral duty to shine a light on this particular cockroach to see him scuttle. But he didn't. Because he's not "mean". He's just trying to show people what he has to deal with, and maybe some of those people, maybe even you, might be able to learn a lesson from this.
That's some of the differences.
* -- I specifically included this naughty word so you could haughtily dismiss my entire point because of its tone. You're welcome.
posted by Etrigan at 7:27 AM on April 27, 2022 [63 favorites]
"You would know that writing a thing like that just proves you’re a living anachronism. But not in a romantic way, like a streetcar or a Ferris wheel. But like cigarette smoke indoors." NICE
posted by Jake DeNiro at 7:27 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Jake DeNiro at 7:27 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
The writer had me well before the first half, then the cigarette smoke was a time machine to my childhood trapped in a car with the windows up or blinking furiously at a kitchen table, and I cannot believe we all lived through that bullshit (I also watched my mom breathe her last days hooked up to oxygen: still puffin' away, sorry to say). But then the writer closes with Super Mario and I'm just going to have to keep floating on into the cosmos because this has been a fine moment indeed. Thank you for sharing.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:29 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 7:29 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Link to the original article (OP link goes to archive.ph which wants me to enable scripts and do captchas and has some other issues)
posted by trig at 7:29 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by trig at 7:29 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
It's awfully reductive to classify either of them as "mean." The emailer was civil but condescendingly enforcing notions of grammatical "correctness" that literally rest on the assumed supremacy of white diction; Young was civil but uninterested in perpetuating racist rules, and instead offered a better standard for writing quality. Rather than being "mean," each was politely but firmly correcting the other—Young was just, as advertised, much MUCH better at it.
posted by babelfish at 7:32 AM on April 27, 2022 [35 favorites]
It's awfully reductive to classify either of them as "mean." The emailer was civil but condescendingly enforcing notions of grammatical "correctness" that literally rest on the assumed supremacy of white diction; Young was civil but uninterested in perpetuating racist rules, and instead offered a better standard for writing quality. Rather than being "mean," each was politely but firmly correcting the other—Young was just, as advertised, much MUCH better at it.
posted by babelfish at 7:32 AM on April 27, 2022 [35 favorites]
But then the writer closes with Super Mario
As a non-hockey fan, I literally re-opened the article to find the Nintendo reference I missed.
Love this article. Thank you for posting it, Etrigan!
posted by solotoro at 7:33 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a non-hockey fan, I literally re-opened the article to find the Nintendo reference I missed.
Love this article. Thank you for posting it, Etrigan!
posted by solotoro at 7:33 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
Young's not even being that mean though. This piece is more educational than anything else, demonstrating that his writing choices, even when not "grammatically correct," are deliberate and used for a specific effect, and that as a skilled writer, he knows this and he knows what effects he wants to achieve.
posted by yasaman at 7:42 AM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Young's not even being that mean though. This piece is more educational than anything else, demonstrating that his writing choices, even when not "grammatically correct," are deliberate and used for a specific effect, and that as a skilled writer, he knows this and he knows what effects he wants to achieve.
posted by yasaman at 7:42 AM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
I was being glib, and for that I apologize. I had a bad taste in my mouth from having read this earlier without the full context of Young's race and without that context, it just came across as a screed against prescriptivist grammar, which, sure is bad, but hardly deserves an entire column taking someone down over.
Naturally, a racist getting knocked down a peg is quite different than a tedious grammarian, I just hadn't fully updated my perception of the article to account for the context.
posted by gee_the_riot at 7:43 AM on April 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
Naturally, a racist getting knocked down a peg is quite different than a tedious grammarian, I just hadn't fully updated my perception of the article to account for the context.
posted by gee_the_riot at 7:43 AM on April 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
Thank you for posting this. I really enjoy the cadence of his writing.
"Microbursts of energy clustered and cut and culled to find balance" was particularly scintillating.
posted by rustybullrake at 7:47 AM on April 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
"Microbursts of energy clustered and cut and culled to find balance" was particularly scintillating.
posted by rustybullrake at 7:47 AM on April 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Nice. Also, the idea of writing to a journalist to correct their grammar when you don't claim to disagree with their content is astonishing. I imagine the complaints run deeper and they've been trained to avoid saying such things. But, who sends a note like that? Get a life!
(I'm not convinced that sentences are music. Or, as others have said elsewhere, that music is math. They're all good things, but very different. But, I recognize smart, thoughtful people disagree.)
posted by eotvos at 7:54 AM on April 27, 2022
(I'm not convinced that sentences are music. Or, as others have said elsewhere, that music is math. They're all good things, but very different. But, I recognize smart, thoughtful people disagree.)
posted by eotvos at 7:54 AM on April 27, 2022
It's fun how he's mean to the person that was mean to him!
Know what's even more fun? Watching people completely miss his point and not even know that they did!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Know what's even more fun? Watching people completely miss his point and not even know that they did!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Grammar Nazis are like, the second worst kind of Nazis...
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:57 AM on April 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:57 AM on April 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Skill always speaks the same language. Pretension does too. Anti-Blackness does too.
You are so easy to read, fam. This was fun to write. But I feel bad for you now. Because I wish you had better sentences.
Am I the only one who read this as the email came from a person Young knew was black and expressing internalized racism?
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:06 AM on April 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
You are so easy to read, fam. This was fun to write. But I feel bad for you now. Because I wish you had better sentences.
Am I the only one who read this as the email came from a person Young knew was black and expressing internalized racism?
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:06 AM on April 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
Am I the only one who read this as the email came from a person Young knew was black and expressing internalized racism?I am a bit embarrassed that this did not occur to me. Thanks!
posted by eotvos at 8:12 AM on April 27, 2022
Am I the only one who read this as the email came from a person Young knew was black and expressing internalized racism?
I also got this feeling. Especially the use of “that man” in the title, which itself has a very long history
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:17 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I also got this feeling. Especially the use of “that man” in the title, which itself has a very long history
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:17 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
That was my first reading of it, too, PBtC. But then I questioned myself and decided I couldn't really tell. It was just my initial response.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:18 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:18 AM on April 27, 2022
I found it fairly gentle (as far as rants go) and informative AND a delicious takedown. Adroit combination!
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:22 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:22 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I 100% agree that sentences are music. Might not be particularly pleasant music. Might be jangly. Discordant. Some sentences manage to ignore rhythmicality more than other sentences and run on way, way too long and contain unnecessary moist words that completely destroy the meter. Some sentences soothe and sway.
Is music math? Well, sure. All experience is math.
Until the music pauses, and we all drop our maths.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:38 AM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Is music math? Well, sure. All experience is math.
Until the music pauses, and we all drop our maths.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:38 AM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think anyone believing the original commentor's letter deserved a polite response missed the line at the end.
"...don't try to sound like you're still in the street."
"Still"? "in the street"?
posted by koucha at 8:50 AM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
"...don't try to sound like you're still in the street."
"Still"? "in the street"?
posted by koucha at 8:50 AM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's actually really difficult to write while you're still in the street. The honking is sooo distracting!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:54 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 8:54 AM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
"ain’t do what you think it did"
I died. thank you for posting!! truly a delight
posted by skrozidile at 9:13 AM on April 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
I died. thank you for posting!! truly a delight
posted by skrozidile at 9:13 AM on April 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Perfectly cromulent.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 9:16 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 9:16 AM on April 27, 2022
this is brilliant on every level. I had not heard of Young before but will be checking out his work. that is some keen writing!
posted by supermedusa at 9:16 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 9:16 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
"ain’t do what you think it did"
is sublime.
posted by zenon at 9:34 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
is sublime.
posted by zenon at 9:34 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best takedown since the classic 1974 response from the Cleveland Browns' legal team:
Dear Mr. Cox:
Attached is a letter that we received on November 19, 1974. I feel that you should be aware that some asshole is signing your name to stupid letters.
Very truly yours,
CLEVELAND STADIUM CORP.Grammar Nazis are like, the second worst kind of Nazis...
Well, third, if you're including Illinois Nazis...
"don't try to sound like you're still in the street"
My god, how f'ing insulting. What a self-righteous, racist prick.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:51 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, third, if you're including Illinois Nazis...
"don't try to sound like you're still in the street"
My god, how f'ing insulting. What a self-righteous, racist prick.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:51 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Am I the only one who read this as the email came from a person Young knew was black and expressing internalized racism?
I don't know about internalized racism but it definitely read to me as coming straight from the Black Respectability Politics handbook.
posted by fuse theorem at 10:05 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know about internalized racism but it definitely read to me as coming straight from the Black Respectability Politics handbook.
posted by fuse theorem at 10:05 AM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
But I feel bad for you now. Because I wish you had better sentences.
hahaha love this hit and the rest too
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:12 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
hahaha love this hit and the rest too
posted by GoblinHoney at 10:12 AM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know about internalized racism but it definitely read to me as coming straight from the Black Respectability Politics handbook.
Respectability politics is internalized bigotry. It is saying that to be "accepted", you must kill your authentic self.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:16 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Respectability politics is internalized bigotry. It is saying that to be "accepted", you must kill your authentic self.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:16 AM on April 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I can already see this essay being assigned in future writing classes, and I am excited just imagining the ensuing discussion.
posted by cheshyre at 10:59 AM on April 27, 2022
posted by cheshyre at 10:59 AM on April 27, 2022
I've been a fan of his for years since the early days of VSBs and it's been fun to watch him rise from the blog getting bought to him putting out his book to the Washington Post gig. It's also nice when an artist comes from Pittsburgh and then actually stays here.
posted by octothorpe at 1:15 PM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 1:15 PM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thanks for posting this. It's absolutely inspiring. It's not just a takedown, either. It's a very solid lesson about skill, talent and creativity.
posted by snsranch at 1:49 PM on April 27, 2022
posted by snsranch at 1:49 PM on April 27, 2022
Respectability politics is internalized bigotry
They can be. But they evolved out of a need to survive. Respectability politics kept you out of the eye of white folks and hopefully out of trouble. Yes, it involves an assimilationist attitude, but at most times in our history, indirect defenses were all that we could afford.
Ignoring respectability politics is a privilege that folks have now 'cause of the battles fought by earlier generations who were bound by them - which is probably why Damon calls dude an anachronism.
posted by anansi at 2:08 PM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
They can be. But they evolved out of a need to survive. Respectability politics kept you out of the eye of white folks and hopefully out of trouble. Yes, it involves an assimilationist attitude, but at most times in our history, indirect defenses were all that we could afford.
Ignoring respectability politics is a privilege that folks have now 'cause of the battles fought by earlier generations who were bound by them - which is probably why Damon calls dude an anachronism.
posted by anansi at 2:08 PM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I've been a fan of his for years since the early days of VSBs and it's been fun to watch him rise from the blog getting bought to him putting out his book to the Washington Post gig.
Yes! I realized I haven't read The Root at all since he left.
One of my more recent favorites from Damon.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:16 PM on April 27, 2022
Yes! I realized I haven't read The Root at all since he left.
One of my more recent favorites from Damon.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:16 PM on April 27, 2022
Young's not even being that mean though. This piece is more educational than anything else, demonstrating that his writing choices, even when not "grammatically correct," are deliberate and used for a specific effect, and that as a skilled writer, he knows this and he knows what effects he wants to achieve.
This is exactly what I thought! I am also a writer—a very good one—and I loved seeing him name and claim his own expertise, as well as demonstrating it.
posted by Well I never at 4:47 PM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is exactly what I thought! I am also a writer—a very good one—and I loved seeing him name and claim his own expertise, as well as demonstrating it.
posted by Well I never at 4:47 PM on April 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
God Francois damn! Kudos in spades, especially for this: “But not in a romantic way, like a streetcar or a Ferris wheel. But like cigarette smoke indoors.” Consider that line stolen, thank you very much.
posted by lometogo at 5:14 PM on April 27, 2022
posted by lometogo at 5:14 PM on April 27, 2022
Like I’m in a H&M fitting room trying to smuggle my 43-year-old thigh into an extra skinny pant leg.
I feel seen, and not in a good way.
posted by Literaryhero at 5:20 PM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
I feel seen, and not in a good way.
posted by Literaryhero at 5:20 PM on April 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
The rules of grammar are mostly suggestions...
Good article.
I'm not saying that Damon's view on grammar is incorrect but I do think grammar rules are very worthy suggestions. The key here is if you know the rules then they can be broken. In this case, Damon knows the rules well and breaks them to develop his own style. In much the same way, Thelonious Monk knew classic piano style but found his own style by hitting three-quarter and angular notes that challenged music convention. And his music is awesome because of it. But I wouldn't want students learning piano to just bang away at the keys with no skill and call it music.
In this way, grammar rules, in my view, are more than just suggestions. They help develop a writer's skill so they can get their ideas across better to their readers. Without them it leads to people writing any way they see fit, which can ultimately undermine what is being written. Spelling rules are much the same.
I would tell students that it is best to learn the grammar rules, apply them and then in time break them as one sees fit. And also to ignore the turkeys who accuse you of sounding like you are still in the street when you do break the rules.
posted by Rashomon at 5:23 PM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Good article.
I'm not saying that Damon's view on grammar is incorrect but I do think grammar rules are very worthy suggestions. The key here is if you know the rules then they can be broken. In this case, Damon knows the rules well and breaks them to develop his own style. In much the same way, Thelonious Monk knew classic piano style but found his own style by hitting three-quarter and angular notes that challenged music convention. And his music is awesome because of it. But I wouldn't want students learning piano to just bang away at the keys with no skill and call it music.
In this way, grammar rules, in my view, are more than just suggestions. They help develop a writer's skill so they can get their ideas across better to their readers. Without them it leads to people writing any way they see fit, which can ultimately undermine what is being written. Spelling rules are much the same.
I would tell students that it is best to learn the grammar rules, apply them and then in time break them as one sees fit. And also to ignore the turkeys who accuse you of sounding like you are still in the street when you do break the rules.
posted by Rashomon at 5:23 PM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I had to stop reading mid-way to go put on my favorite soundtrack for joyous and blindingly skillful assertion of one's merits in the face of critique from mediocrity.
UNH
I'm so far ahead of y'all
man, I'm on top of the stars
I don't care none of y'all are
blahblahblahblah
you best to go rewrite your bars
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 5:44 PM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
UNH
I'm so far ahead of y'all
man, I'm on top of the stars
I don't care none of y'all are
blahblahblahblah
you best to go rewrite your bars
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 5:44 PM on April 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
that was fire.
posted by dudemanlives at 7:40 PM on April 27, 2022
posted by dudemanlives at 7:40 PM on April 27, 2022
The key here is if you know the rules then they can be broken
I dunno. Native speakers have implicit mastery of their language, but often cannot articulate the constituent rules very well at all. And outside of a handful of poets and authors, most successful writers don't really break grammar rules to demonstrate virtuosity or even as a basic expressive strategy? Writing in a different dialect or employing a bit of slang isn't breaking rules, it's just using another ruleset.
I have serious doubts there is any value in trying to learn the rules explicitly. Have you ever leafed through A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language by Randolph Quirk? You think learning all that shit will make you a better writer? I don't. Writing will though. Know what discourages people from writing? Telling them their writing is bad and wrong and making them memorize endless shibboleths of dubious origin about using language "properly".
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:55 PM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I dunno. Native speakers have implicit mastery of their language, but often cannot articulate the constituent rules very well at all. And outside of a handful of poets and authors, most successful writers don't really break grammar rules to demonstrate virtuosity or even as a basic expressive strategy? Writing in a different dialect or employing a bit of slang isn't breaking rules, it's just using another ruleset.
I have serious doubts there is any value in trying to learn the rules explicitly. Have you ever leafed through A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language by Randolph Quirk? You think learning all that shit will make you a better writer? I don't. Writing will though. Know what discourages people from writing? Telling them their writing is bad and wrong and making them memorize endless shibboleths of dubious origin about using language "properly".
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:55 PM on April 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Because if you were actually good at something worth mentioning, you wouldn’t have had the time, the bandwidth, the audacity, to write that to me. Because you would’ve had the perspective when you’re actually good at something.
Perfection.
posted by travertina at 8:55 PM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Perfection.
posted by travertina at 8:55 PM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
> In this way, grammar rules, in my view, are more than just suggestions. They help develop a writer's skill so they can get their ideas across better to their readers.
The perspective I have found most useful as a writer, especially of a language as mutable as English, is that grammar rules are a tool, one of several, for teaching people not to accidentally cause impressions in their readers. Grammar is a tool for training and a tool for analysis and automation. The actual recognition of neutrality or affiliation or departure in a reader isn't something governed by formal structure. From this point of view they are less than suggestions for writers. They are training wheels.
(This is all something else than using grammar as a shortcut to foreign language acquisition.)
posted by madhadron at 9:26 PM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
The perspective I have found most useful as a writer, especially of a language as mutable as English, is that grammar rules are a tool, one of several, for teaching people not to accidentally cause impressions in their readers. Grammar is a tool for training and a tool for analysis and automation. The actual recognition of neutrality or affiliation or departure in a reader isn't something governed by formal structure. From this point of view they are less than suggestions for writers. They are training wheels.
(This is all something else than using grammar as a shortcut to foreign language acquisition.)
posted by madhadron at 9:26 PM on April 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
You beat me to posting it! I quite enjoyed it, glad others did too.
posted by Toddles at 9:35 PM on April 27, 2022
posted by Toddles at 9:35 PM on April 27, 2022
A wondrous put down wrapped up in a fabulous writing lesson. Don't know whether to bookmark under rhetoric (effecting state change in the listener through word use) or under writing & racism. Thanks for posting
posted by glasseyes at 1:33 PM on April 29, 2022
posted by glasseyes at 1:33 PM on April 29, 2022
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posted by johnxlibris at 6:42 AM on April 27, 2022 [7 favorites]