some of the pictures could only be described as “disastrous”
June 8, 2022 7:01 PM Subscribe
In A Guide To Asking Robots To Design Stained Glass Windows, Scott Alexander has a desire to make some very specific images. But, as he finds out, "the artists I’ve asked to design this all balk. I need an artist who works for free and isn’t allowed to say no. Enter DALL-E-2, the new art-generating AI."
There are too many great little bits that could be quoted, but for me it comes down to this part of the conclusion:
There are too many great little bits that could be quoted, but for me it comes down to this part of the conclusion:
Every object in a scene influences everything else in a scene. If you add a moose, the entire scene will look more like the sort of scene where mooses might appear. If you add a razor, all the characters will look a bit more like the characters in shaving ads, even if they are medieval monks.DALL-E previously
To get a subject depicted in a specific style, you need to balance the attention paid to style and subject. Talk too much about the style, and you’ll get the sort of scene which is typically depicted in that style, regardless of what scene you want. Talk too much about the scene, and you’ll get the sort of style that scene is usually depicted in, regardless of what style you told it.
Also, I think the last "Thomas Bayes in a hot air balloon, Art Nouveau" image is my favorite of all of them.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:18 PM on June 8, 2022
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:18 PM on June 8, 2022
MeFi does not like Scott Alexander as, charitably, he's eugenics-adjacent
posted by lalochezia at 7:36 PM on June 8, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 7:36 PM on June 8, 2022 [29 favorites]
It's been over two months since DALL-E 2 was announced and I'm still riveted by the images coming out of it (and still stuck on the waitlist, sadly). Vox recently came out with a fantastic explainer for the whole thing, plus a bonus video: What AI art means for human artists.
Along the same lines, Dallery.gallery has a great introductory FAQ, plus illustrated guides like Physical Art Types and Photography Prompt Ideas
There are not one but two search engines for finding publicly-posted DALL-E images: dalle2.gallery and dalle2.app
Prompt Engineering Google Doc, for collecting promising descriptors to insert into prompts
Aaron Hertzman: Creative Explorations with DALL-E 2
What would Mona Lisa look like with a body? DALL-E 2 has an answer
Characters in multiple universes: Kermit the Frog - Big Bird - Homer Simpson
@hardmaru: "Our children will grow up taking for granted that computers can “simply” produce realistic images, entire stories, or chat with them naturally, while we think that it is magic. Just like how our previous generations thought the radio, telephone, TV, video calls seem like magic."
Theatrical set designs based on TV shows, games + artists
In other news, Google unveiled competitor Imagen, a similar system that's much better at rendering text (although aesthetically I think it leans on the flat-lit/"corporate pop art" side). Smaller-scale systems like DALL-E Mini and Midjourney are also gaining steam, at least until the main event is open to the public.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:40 PM on June 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
Along the same lines, Dallery.gallery has a great introductory FAQ, plus illustrated guides like Physical Art Types and Photography Prompt Ideas
There are not one but two search engines for finding publicly-posted DALL-E images: dalle2.gallery and dalle2.app
Prompt Engineering Google Doc, for collecting promising descriptors to insert into prompts
Aaron Hertzman: Creative Explorations with DALL-E 2
What would Mona Lisa look like with a body? DALL-E 2 has an answer
Characters in multiple universes: Kermit the Frog - Big Bird - Homer Simpson
@hardmaru: "Our children will grow up taking for granted that computers can “simply” produce realistic images, entire stories, or chat with them naturally, while we think that it is magic. Just like how our previous generations thought the radio, telephone, TV, video calls seem like magic."
Theatrical set designs based on TV shows, games + artists
In other news, Google unveiled competitor Imagen, a similar system that's much better at rendering text (although aesthetically I think it leans on the flat-lit/"corporate pop art" side). Smaller-scale systems like DALL-E Mini and Midjourney are also gaining steam, at least until the main event is open to the public.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:40 PM on June 8, 2022 [14 favorites]
"I need an artist who works for free and isn’t allowed to say no."
This is what plagues art for hire and more specifically, commercial art, in a nutshell.
posted by Zedcaster at 7:40 PM on June 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is what plagues art for hire and more specifically, commercial art, in a nutshell.
posted by Zedcaster at 7:40 PM on June 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is cool, Scott Alexander is still someone who makes the world a poorer place every time he writes. Rhaomi, thanks for posting non SSC mk2 content.
posted by Hactar at 7:59 PM on June 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Hactar at 7:59 PM on June 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Tycho Brahe looking through a telescope ... The most salient fact about Tycho Brahe is that he had a pet moose."
Hell, why not Tycho Brahe riding his pet moose to Mars?
posted by Reverend John at 8:20 PM on June 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hell, why not Tycho Brahe riding his pet moose to Mars?
posted by Reverend John at 8:20 PM on June 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
Can you really say the MOST salient fact about Tycho Brahe was that he had a pet moose when he also had A NOSE MADE OUT OF GOLD???
posted by rikschell at 8:25 PM on June 8, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:25 PM on June 8, 2022 [26 favorites]
The most salient facts about Tycho Brahe are that he wore a prosthetic nose made of gold, silver, or bronze, and that was the last great astronomer who never touched a telescope. Also “moose” is an American name for the animal known in Europe as the “elk.”
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2022 [10 favorites]
Even dalle-mini seems to understand quite a lot, including Columbo for the Nintendo 64, in Disco Elysium, GTA Vice City, in Sesame Street, on the Obra Dinn, as a Scary Story to Tell in the Dark, in Team Fortress 2 etc (more in that thread).
posted by BungaDunga at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
oh, look, here i come at the tail of the tycho brigade
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 8:28 PM on June 8, 2022 [5 favorites]
The most salient fact about Tycho Brahe is that he had a pet moose.
Yeah, I literally thought this was a joke and the punchline was going to be something about a gold nose, but nope. We're just going to hope the future forgets that whole unfortunate business with the duel and remembers Tycho as a cool dude with a drunk moose.
And I guess maybe I'm okay with that?
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:38 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I literally thought this was a joke and the punchline was going to be something about a gold nose, but nope. We're just going to hope the future forgets that whole unfortunate business with the duel and remembers Tycho as a cool dude with a drunk moose.
And I guess maybe I'm okay with that?
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:38 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also “moose” is an American name for the animal known in Europe as the “elk.”
Not to be confused with the North American elk, which is different from a moose.
Key differences: a moose is larger, darker fur, has plate-like (flat) antlers, a bulbous nose, and a long dewlap/“beard”. North American elk are smaller, more golden colored, have more slender noses (more like a deer), with no dewlap/beard.
posted by darkstar at 8:38 PM on June 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not to be confused with the North American elk, which is different from a moose.
Key differences: a moose is larger, darker fur, has plate-like (flat) antlers, a bulbous nose, and a long dewlap/“beard”. North American elk are smaller, more golden colored, have more slender noses (more like a deer), with no dewlap/beard.
posted by darkstar at 8:38 PM on June 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
"What I’d really like is a giant twelve-part panel depicting the Virtues Of Rationality."
Come on, man: This stained glass sucks. Basically exactly those windows hang at (the Indiana version of) Notre Dame, in the liberal arts building (O'Shaughnessy Hall, an architectural catastrophe in general but with nice stained glass -- Skidmore, Owings, & Merrill can build skyscrapers like whoa but they fucking suck at classroom buildings, and "they're Catholic and we can afford them" is a very bad reason), only they don't suck as comprehensively. A shit-ton of stained glass after 1850 or so features the virtues of modern science (there's a bunch before 1850 too, but it tends not to be as systematic), and a bunch of it after 1898 features labor unions as holy. My favorite are the post-WWII windows at the Duomo in Milan, but just about any cathedral that's had stained glass replaced since 1870 will have some cool-ass stained-glass windows with modern themes.
This is boring, Scott Alexander. Know your antecedents (and pay artists). This is just a bunch of scientists in variegated stained-glass robes, which is ultra-Puritan as stained-glass art goes, and not very modern or innovative at all. LITERALLY EVERYONE CAN MAKE A PHOTOREALISTIC DUDE IN ROBES, snore. The reason the AI is making it is IT'S THE WORST POSSIBLE FORM OF STAINED GLASS THAT ANY IDIOT CAN MANAGE. I mean, yes, graphics programs have been able to convert photos into "stained glass" since the early 2000s, I guess it's good a cutting-edge AI can do what photoshop did 20 years ago? But a good window needs hella more symbolism and way less "photo of a dude in robes," which is the laziest possible form of stained glass. (I mean, I literally grew up in a hastily-built 60s Catholic church with COOL-ASS modernist Wright-inflected stained glass with clear Chagall influences set behind cheap stock statutes of St. Peter and Jesus that super-effectively managed to use the low-cost modernist stained glass and the stock statuary to tell a story of salvation.) If you just want to put a realistic portrait into stained glass, well, yes, you've found your tool. But it's dumb and you don't need glass to do that.
Anyway, DALL-E is cool, Scott Alexander is boring, Tycho Brahe rocks, and there's a lot of extant stained glass about science being awesome.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:44 PM on June 8, 2022 [24 favorites]
Come on, man: This stained glass sucks. Basically exactly those windows hang at (the Indiana version of) Notre Dame, in the liberal arts building (O'Shaughnessy Hall, an architectural catastrophe in general but with nice stained glass -- Skidmore, Owings, & Merrill can build skyscrapers like whoa but they fucking suck at classroom buildings, and "they're Catholic and we can afford them" is a very bad reason), only they don't suck as comprehensively. A shit-ton of stained glass after 1850 or so features the virtues of modern science (there's a bunch before 1850 too, but it tends not to be as systematic), and a bunch of it after 1898 features labor unions as holy. My favorite are the post-WWII windows at the Duomo in Milan, but just about any cathedral that's had stained glass replaced since 1870 will have some cool-ass stained-glass windows with modern themes.
This is boring, Scott Alexander. Know your antecedents (and pay artists). This is just a bunch of scientists in variegated stained-glass robes, which is ultra-Puritan as stained-glass art goes, and not very modern or innovative at all. LITERALLY EVERYONE CAN MAKE A PHOTOREALISTIC DUDE IN ROBES, snore. The reason the AI is making it is IT'S THE WORST POSSIBLE FORM OF STAINED GLASS THAT ANY IDIOT CAN MANAGE. I mean, yes, graphics programs have been able to convert photos into "stained glass" since the early 2000s, I guess it's good a cutting-edge AI can do what photoshop did 20 years ago? But a good window needs hella more symbolism and way less "photo of a dude in robes," which is the laziest possible form of stained glass. (I mean, I literally grew up in a hastily-built 60s Catholic church with COOL-ASS modernist Wright-inflected stained glass with clear Chagall influences set behind cheap stock statutes of St. Peter and Jesus that super-effectively managed to use the low-cost modernist stained glass and the stock statuary to tell a story of salvation.) If you just want to put a realistic portrait into stained glass, well, yes, you've found your tool. But it's dumb and you don't need glass to do that.
Anyway, DALL-E is cool, Scott Alexander is boring, Tycho Brahe rocks, and there's a lot of extant stained glass about science being awesome.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:44 PM on June 8, 2022 [24 favorites]
Speaking of Tycho, Penny Arcade is NOT a fan (blog post is below the comic).
posted by Rhaomi at 8:46 PM on June 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 8:46 PM on June 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
The most salient facts about Tycho Brahe are that he wore a prosthetic nose made of gold, silver, or bronze, and that was the last great astronomer who never touched a telescope. Also “moose” is an American name for the animal known in Europe as the “elk.”
I just googled pictures of elk and they look nothing like moose. On preview, I tried googling "European Elk" and I guess they body shape is a little more moose like but the antlers are still different.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:49 PM on June 8, 2022
I just googled pictures of elk and they look nothing like moose. On preview, I tried googling "European Elk" and I guess they body shape is a little more moose like but the antlers are still different.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:49 PM on June 8, 2022
The salient fact about the "Twelve Virtues of Rationality" post that Alexander links to is that it's by Eliezer Yudkowsky, which, uh, barf. But does this mean that the simulation ends (and the screaming begins) when we ask DALL-E to draw Roko's Basilisk?
posted by what does it eat, light? at 9:16 PM on June 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by what does it eat, light? at 9:16 PM on June 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I tried googling "European Elk" and I guess they body shape is a little more moose like but the antlers are still different.
Oh, those Europeans - gotta do EVERYTHING their OWN darn way!
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:18 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, those Europeans - gotta do EVERYTHING their OWN darn way!
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:18 PM on June 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
To kill the derail, or perhaps to prompt a related post somewhere else: the species Alces alces, known in North America by the Algonquin name “moose” but in Europe as “elk” (whence the “alc” of Alces) seems to be a single subarctic species of deer with an enormous range. A less-large deer from a different genus, Cervus canadensis, known in Cree as “wapiti,” is commonly called “elk” in North America.
Apparently the confusion in English arose because the European elk went extinct in Britain sometime before the colonization of the Americas, but the English word “elk” was still around, waiting to be used by the colonists to describe large deer. Furthermore, wapiti have disappeared from the eastern US while moose have not, which makes the colonization story confusing to people who think of wapiti as creatures of the Rocky Mountains.
The fact that a quick web or image search reveals only muddled fragments of this complicated history is one of the weaknesses of search-based machine learning.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:23 PM on June 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
Apparently the confusion in English arose because the European elk went extinct in Britain sometime before the colonization of the Americas, but the English word “elk” was still around, waiting to be used by the colonists to describe large deer. Furthermore, wapiti have disappeared from the eastern US while moose have not, which makes the colonization story confusing to people who think of wapiti as creatures of the Rocky Mountains.
The fact that a quick web or image search reveals only muddled fragments of this complicated history is one of the weaknesses of search-based machine learning.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 9:23 PM on June 8, 2022 [12 favorites]
How many posts to go until the “a møøse once bit my sister” jokes start?
posted by holborne at 9:51 PM on June 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by holborne at 9:51 PM on June 8, 2022 [7 favorites]
…but did Brahe really have a pet “moose” of the North American variety or was it actually a European elk? The latter seems more likely, but then he also had a metal nose prothesis and seemed to be a bit eccentric, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by Doleful Creature at 9:54 PM on June 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Doleful Creature at 9:54 PM on June 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
They are the same thing: a European elk is the same species as an American moose. There are some slight differences in the subspecies. Here's a map of Alces alces distribution.
Anyway, I skimmed unti l I got to the part where the writer said there are unlikely to be stained glass images of moose, but quite a lot of men with telescopes; and I realized he was clueless and I stopped reading.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:08 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Anyway, I skimmed unti l I got to the part where the writer said there are unlikely to be stained glass images of moose, but quite a lot of men with telescopes; and I realized he was clueless and I stopped reading.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:08 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Doleful Creature: he also had a metal nose prothesis and seemed to be a bit eccentric
Eccentric/syphilitic, epicyclic/elliptic, tomaytoes/tomahtoes...
Nose/Off is the forthcoming prequel set in the Renaissance.
(The Yudkovsky link marked this as kook territory. "Artists are kinda expensive" was there in the doc, which unpacks as "this is a pretext for these images and you don't want to hear someone expert in art or stained glass, you want to hear from me on this.")
posted by k3ninho at 11:54 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Eccentric/syphilitic, epicyclic/elliptic, tomaytoes/tomahtoes...
Nose/Off is the forthcoming prequel set in the Renaissance.
(The Yudkovsky link marked this as kook territory. "Artists are kinda expensive" was there in the doc, which unpacks as "this is a pretext for these images and you don't want to hear someone expert in art or stained glass, you want to hear from me on this.")
posted by k3ninho at 11:54 PM on June 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
Everyone is talking about the prosthetic nose like that's more remarkable than the fact that he died because he refused to excuse himself from the King's presence to piss as it would have been rude to do so.
posted by Dysk at 1:05 AM on June 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:05 AM on June 9, 2022 [6 favorites]
wow I am learning so much about Tycho Brahe!
posted by taquito sunrise at 1:21 AM on June 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by taquito sunrise at 1:21 AM on June 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
I thought the first disastrous Darwin and finches windows were awesome. Now I want to make a few but won't, all elementary school like, food coloring and white glue on tin foil over pictures cut out from magazines. Could be quite fun.
posted by zengargoyle at 4:07 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by zengargoyle at 4:07 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
he died because he refused to excuse himself from the King's presence to piss as it would have been rude to do so
That’s what Kepler (not a doctor) claimed*. He’s more likely to have had kidney stones or possibly heavy metal poisoning from his alchemical work. Also, it wasn’t the king, it was the Holy Roman Emperor, Rudolph II.
*Kepler wanted the (now vacant) job of Royal Mathematician, so he had his own reasons for wanting to make Tycho look foolish.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:19 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
That’s what Kepler (not a doctor) claimed*. He’s more likely to have had kidney stones or possibly heavy metal poisoning from his alchemical work. Also, it wasn’t the king, it was the Holy Roman Emperor, Rudolph II.
*Kepler wanted the (now vacant) job of Royal Mathematician, so he had his own reasons for wanting to make Tycho look foolish.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:19 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
"This solves the problem, at the cost of the Reverend’s head."
Isn't that always the way?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:30 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Isn't that always the way?
posted by Paul Slade at 4:30 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh, those Europeans - gotta do EVERYTHING their OWN darn way!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:32 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:32 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is the premise of an unwritten William Golding novel, and cannot end well.
posted by howfar at 5:19 AM on June 9, 2022
posted by howfar at 5:19 AM on June 9, 2022
I half remember a picture of Tycho Brahe with a structure I took to be an observatory. Even Galileo's telescope was larger than hand-held.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:25 AM on June 9, 2022
posted by SemiSalt at 5:25 AM on June 9, 2022
it's always astounding to me that, given the level of moderation and sensitivity on this website (which I frankly support), we still get the odd non-sneering link to rationalists and their content.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:34 AM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 5:34 AM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
That’s what Kepler (not a doctor) claimed*. He’s more likely to have had kidney stones or possibly heavy metal poisoning from his alchemical work. Also, it wasn’t the king, it was the Holy Roman Emperor, Rudolph II.
Results from a 2010 exhumation have put that theory on the periphery. No evidence of kidney stones (which is what was claimed as cause of death at the time), no fatal mercury levels, current working theory is uremia.
posted by Dysk at 5:36 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Results from a 2010 exhumation have put that theory on the periphery. No evidence of kidney stones (which is what was claimed as cause of death at the time), no fatal mercury levels, current working theory is uremia.
posted by Dysk at 5:36 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I keep being amazed at what machine learning is doing, especially in the supposedly "creative" fields. There's a fair amount of news content that's machine produced these days, the algorithms to make music are getting really good.
I'm wondering how long before the future Charles Stross (MeFi's own!) had in mind with Rule 34 where AI produces unique adventures in online games will become reality and we'll look back on the human produced "quests" that everyone gets as quaint and a weird relic of a limited past. "You mean every person who played games back then had to do exactly the same thing? That's so weird grandparent!"
posted by sotonohito at 5:40 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering how long before the future Charles Stross (MeFi's own!) had in mind with Rule 34 where AI produces unique adventures in online games will become reality and we'll look back on the human produced "quests" that everyone gets as quaint and a weird relic of a limited past. "You mean every person who played games back then had to do exactly the same thing? That's so weird grandparent!"
posted by sotonohito at 5:40 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
it wasn’t the king, it was the Holy Roman Emperor, Rudolph II.
Well, if we're getting picky, while it is my understanding that Brahe was imperial astronomer, the events are claimed to have happened in Prague, the seat of Rudolph/f II in his capacity as King of Bohemia. Given this, and the fact that the titles "King of the Romans" (until the C. 19th) and "King of/in Germany" are supervenient on "Holy Roman Emperor", even I think that insisting on this last title is perhaps a little pedantic.
posted by howfar at 5:42 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, if we're getting picky, while it is my understanding that Brahe was imperial astronomer, the events are claimed to have happened in Prague, the seat of Rudolph/f II in his capacity as King of Bohemia. Given this, and the fact that the titles "King of the Romans" (until the C. 19th) and "King of/in Germany" are supervenient on "Holy Roman Emperor", even I think that insisting on this last title is perhaps a little pedantic.
posted by howfar at 5:42 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think what’s going on here is - nobody depicts a moose in stained glass.
Not with that attitude they don't. Be the change you want to see in the world, Scott.
posted by Mayor West at 5:44 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Not with that attitude they don't. Be the change you want to see in the world, Scott.
posted by Mayor West at 5:44 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've got a sort of burnout on articles about how much fun AI is, look at this cool and whacky thing I made, without touching on any of the political and social inequities the tech is based upon and is already doing its best to perpetuate.
Also, the fact that all of the people Alexander chose to represent 'rationality' are white and almost all men is certainly a surprising, not meaningful at all coincidence.
posted by signal at 6:05 AM on June 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
Also, the fact that all of the people Alexander chose to represent 'rationality' are white and almost all men is certainly a surprising, not meaningful at all coincidence.
posted by signal at 6:05 AM on June 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
It's not AI until it knows what a stained glass window is.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 6:13 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 6:13 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
When I was a kid, I was a big fan of Cosmos, in which the story of Tycho Brahe and his bladder bursting was recounted. This terrified me. I had shy bladder, among all the other social problems you can imagine a kid has if they read Cosmos, and I was afraid that some day I would be put in a Situation where I simply could not go, and I would die over days like he did.
Anyway, Scott Alexander is a fellow traveler to racists, if not one himself, and I'm disappointed to see this was about him. I was hoping for a fun thread to share DALL-E's results about the Waffle House signs (WOTE CAFESE) and Strong Bad answering his email (which he loved).
And yet as much as I adore AI shenanigans, it increasingly feels like whistling past the graveyard. A lot of creative careers will be destroyed as careers, I think, although not as hobbies. This already happened to commercial illustration, and before that to jobbing musicians. As to writing, I've seen a program (I forget its name) that, with the guiding hand of a writer/editor (for now), could turn out a genre novel. Will it be as good? Well, what's "good"? It can hit the story beats and offer some fascinating turns of phrase. People will like that well enough.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:37 AM on June 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Anyway, Scott Alexander is a fellow traveler to racists, if not one himself, and I'm disappointed to see this was about him. I was hoping for a fun thread to share DALL-E's results about the Waffle House signs (WOTE CAFESE) and Strong Bad answering his email (which he loved).
And yet as much as I adore AI shenanigans, it increasingly feels like whistling past the graveyard. A lot of creative careers will be destroyed as careers, I think, although not as hobbies. This already happened to commercial illustration, and before that to jobbing musicians. As to writing, I've seen a program (I forget its name) that, with the guiding hand of a writer/editor (for now), could turn out a genre novel. Will it be as good? Well, what's "good"? It can hit the story beats and offer some fascinating turns of phrase. People will like that well enough.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:37 AM on June 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
Scott Alexander has a follow-up post here, although most of it is not terribly relevant to the original post on the stained glass windows.
Also, for whatever it's worth, I'm a longtime reader of Slate Star Codex (now called Astral Codex Ten), and I dispute that the author is racist or otherwise offensive/regressive. Readers are encouraged to check out the blog and decide for themselves.
posted by alex1965 at 7:06 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also, for whatever it's worth, I'm a longtime reader of Slate Star Codex (now called Astral Codex Ten), and I dispute that the author is racist or otherwise offensive/regressive. Readers are encouraged to check out the blog and decide for themselves.
posted by alex1965 at 7:06 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Automation is coming for all jobs, including tech support and other jobs people would like to pretend are immune to automation. And definitely including creative jobs. Turns out that "creativity" and "imagination", whatever we mean by those, are not actually human exclusive traits. Or at least they can be faked well enough by machines for our purposes.
In the short run, as long as we're trying to make the zombie corpse of Capitalism work, that's going to make a lot of people unemployed.
In the longer term I think people will keep creating for the same reason people keep gardening despite food being available at the grocery store: because they like it. But that's assuming we get the good post-automation future and not the one that the billionaire class wants us to have.
posted by sotonohito at 7:10 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
In the short run, as long as we're trying to make the zombie corpse of Capitalism work, that's going to make a lot of people unemployed.
In the longer term I think people will keep creating for the same reason people keep gardening despite food being available at the grocery store: because they like it. But that's assuming we get the good post-automation future and not the one that the billionaire class wants us to have.
posted by sotonohito at 7:10 AM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
AI researcher Gary Marcus has a good reply to Alexander's post (discussing both GPT-3, as below, and DALL-E 2):
Now it is true that GPT-3 is genuinely better than GPT-2... But I see no reason whatsoever to think that the underlying problem — a lack of cognitive models of the world — have been remedied. The improvements, such as they are, come, primarily because the newer models have larger and larger sets of data about how human beings use word sequences, and bigger word sequences are certainly helpful for pattern matching machines. But they still don’t convey genuine comprehension, and so they are still very easy for Ernie [Davis] and me (or anyone else who cares to try) to break.
As Marcus has been saying for years, there's a lack of basic reliability to these deep learning systems that will limit how much you can use them to automate the world -- recall, for example, that AI was supposed to have made radiologists obsolete by now, but in fact there is currently a shortage of radiologists in the job market. So it's important not to get taken in by Silicon Valley hype, even when the hype is really impressive, like DALL-E 2.
posted by Cash4Lead at 7:17 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
Now it is true that GPT-3 is genuinely better than GPT-2... But I see no reason whatsoever to think that the underlying problem — a lack of cognitive models of the world — have been remedied. The improvements, such as they are, come, primarily because the newer models have larger and larger sets of data about how human beings use word sequences, and bigger word sequences are certainly helpful for pattern matching machines. But they still don’t convey genuine comprehension, and so they are still very easy for Ernie [Davis] and me (or anyone else who cares to try) to break.
As Marcus has been saying for years, there's a lack of basic reliability to these deep learning systems that will limit how much you can use them to automate the world -- recall, for example, that AI was supposed to have made radiologists obsolete by now, but in fact there is currently a shortage of radiologists in the job market. So it's important not to get taken in by Silicon Valley hype, even when the hype is really impressive, like DALL-E 2.
posted by Cash4Lead at 7:17 AM on June 9, 2022 [4 favorites]
alex1965 No one is asserting that he's a Klansman, if you read the link you'll note that they're discussing the fact that his blog is one of those techbro/debate club places where the topics "are Black people really people" and "are women actually people" are up for debate. Not framed quite so explicitly, but there.
When everything is treated as a topic for dry academic debate and we're expected to accept that it's entirely proper to debate the humanity of people then that's going to a) drive away people who's humanity is questioned, and b) welcome racists, misogynists, and other bigots. Which then becomes a vicious circle and results in the community becoming increasingly hostile to anyone who isn't a cis het white man but in an insidious way where the presence of people who aren't cis het white men is presented as inherently "political" or disruptive. Thus allowing the people there to believe that they aren't tolerating racism, they're just not putting up with BS from disruptive outsiders who want to force an SJW agenda on them.
Either you actively chase out the regressive white supremacist scum, or your place becomes a haven for regressive white supremacist scum. There's no neutrality when oppression is the status quo.
posted by sotonohito at 7:22 AM on June 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
When everything is treated as a topic for dry academic debate and we're expected to accept that it's entirely proper to debate the humanity of people then that's going to a) drive away people who's humanity is questioned, and b) welcome racists, misogynists, and other bigots. Which then becomes a vicious circle and results in the community becoming increasingly hostile to anyone who isn't a cis het white man but in an insidious way where the presence of people who aren't cis het white men is presented as inherently "political" or disruptive. Thus allowing the people there to believe that they aren't tolerating racism, they're just not putting up with BS from disruptive outsiders who want to force an SJW agenda on them.
Either you actively chase out the regressive white supremacist scum, or your place becomes a haven for regressive white supremacist scum. There's no neutrality when oppression is the status quo.
posted by sotonohito at 7:22 AM on June 9, 2022 [19 favorites]
Scott Alexander suffers so greatly from Rationalist over-confidence in his own understanding of the world that the possibility that Brahe never used a telescope doesn't ever occur to him.
I'm a little disappointed he didn't go ahead and put this stained glass in his home, so that any time a person with a brain visited they would immediately become aware that they are dealing with a buffoon.
posted by dsword at 7:37 AM on June 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm a little disappointed he didn't go ahead and put this stained glass in his home, so that any time a person with a brain visited they would immediately become aware that they are dealing with a buffoon.
posted by dsword at 7:37 AM on June 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's not AI until it knows what a stained glass window is.
I mean, it's pretty clear from the results that it knows what a stained glass window is. What it doesn't know is whether that guy wants a design for a stained glass window or a picture of a stained glass window, which more than anything seems to be a problem with the way the interface is built -- failing to separate content requests from style requests.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:40 AM on June 9, 2022
I mean, it's pretty clear from the results that it knows what a stained glass window is. What it doesn't know is whether that guy wants a design for a stained glass window or a picture of a stained glass window, which more than anything seems to be a problem with the way the interface is built -- failing to separate content requests from style requests.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:40 AM on June 9, 2022
I mean, it's pretty clear from the results that it knows what a stained glass window is.
It's clear from the results that it's found a statistical association between the words "stained glass windows" and patterns in a data matrix that humans can visualize as an image.
It doesn't know what a stained glass window is. Without access to full GPT-3, I can only guess but I'll guess that it doesn't know that stained glass windows are solid objects, that stained glass windows aren't food, that stained glass windows filter sunlight, that the things portrayed in stained glass windows are merely images and not the actual objects, etc. Where each of those "know"s is only finding a statistical association between those words and other features of a matrix, not even actually knowing anything.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:59 AM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's clear from the results that it's found a statistical association between the words "stained glass windows" and patterns in a data matrix that humans can visualize as an image.
It doesn't know what a stained glass window is. Without access to full GPT-3, I can only guess but I'll guess that it doesn't know that stained glass windows are solid objects, that stained glass windows aren't food, that stained glass windows filter sunlight, that the things portrayed in stained glass windows are merely images and not the actual objects, etc. Where each of those "know"s is only finding a statistical association between those words and other features of a matrix, not even actually knowing anything.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:59 AM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
No one is asserting that he's a Klansman, if you read the link you'll note that they're discussing the fact that his blog is one of those techbro/debate club places where the topics "are Black people really people" and "are women actually people" are up for debate. Not framed quite so explicitly, but there.
It's also worth pointing out that when Scott Alexander Siskind (yes, that's his full name, and shows how lazy his pen name was) had his professional and online personas connected, he cried "doxing" while expecting us to ignore that he had been actively concealing critical information from potential patients.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:05 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's also worth pointing out that when Scott Alexander Siskind (yes, that's his full name, and shows how lazy his pen name was) had his professional and online personas connected, he cried "doxing" while expecting us to ignore that he had been actively concealing critical information from potential patients.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:05 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thank you for this post and thread; I am very much here for anything/everything to do with stained glass windows.
posted by Wordshore at 8:18 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Wordshore at 8:18 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nose/Off is the forthcoming prequel set in the Renaissance.
My favorite part is in the second act when they flip the charts around and show us the orbits from the Sun's perspective!
posted by traveler_ at 8:20 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
My favorite part is in the second act when they flip the charts around and show us the orbits from the Sun's perspective!
posted by traveler_ at 8:20 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I didn't want to threadsit or frame the post too much or anything, and I hesitate even to post this comment, but:
I had a lot of thoughts about something that could be seen as maybe an endorsement of Scott Alexander (who is not specifically known to me, but is part of the whole Rationalist thing and links to Yudkowsky, and ugh). So I was thinking maybe I shouldn't post this.
I thought, despite that view of the world (or more likely, because of it), he went through this project and wrote up this post that was interesting and would foster discussion. The idea of futzing with DALL-E in a particular way and learning how it interprets your desires is fascinating. Also, he apparently knows one little tidbit about Tycho Brahe but not the two (IME) most-commonly-cited things? And also not that he didn't even use a telescope?
And he non-ironically (I'm guessing) thinks it's a good thing to crap on artists and use AI instead? And thinks Charles Darwin's head on a bird body is a bad thing? I personally prefer Dr. Kate Compton's view on how tech should intersect with art. (threadreader)
Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this again before it looks like I'm trying to save my reputation. Continue engaging with the post for what it is and discuss to your heart's content. You're all doing great.
posted by cardioid at 8:40 AM on June 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
I had a lot of thoughts about something that could be seen as maybe an endorsement of Scott Alexander (who is not specifically known to me, but is part of the whole Rationalist thing and links to Yudkowsky, and ugh). So I was thinking maybe I shouldn't post this.
I thought, despite that view of the world (or more likely, because of it), he went through this project and wrote up this post that was interesting and would foster discussion. The idea of futzing with DALL-E in a particular way and learning how it interprets your desires is fascinating. Also, he apparently knows one little tidbit about Tycho Brahe but not the two (IME) most-commonly-cited things? And also not that he didn't even use a telescope?
And he non-ironically (I'm guessing) thinks it's a good thing to crap on artists and use AI instead? And thinks Charles Darwin's head on a bird body is a bad thing? I personally prefer Dr. Kate Compton's view on how tech should intersect with art. (threadreader)
Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this again before it looks like I'm trying to save my reputation. Continue engaging with the post for what it is and discuss to your heart's content. You're all doing great.
posted by cardioid at 8:40 AM on June 9, 2022 [11 favorites]
I want to play with it too dang it.
posted by jquinby at 8:57 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jquinby at 8:57 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
and I dispute that the author is racist or otherwise offensive/regressivei think it’s worth re-highlighting these emails from the other thread lalochezia linked, in which Scott Alexander describes Human Biodiversity and other racist neoreactionary theories as “probably correct”
posted by rlio at 9:10 AM on June 9, 2022 [8 favorites]
John Calvin Eating KFC
John Calvin Drinking Mountain Dew Baha Blast
Karl Barth Playing a Nintendo Switch
A still of Kermit the Frog in The Matrix (1999)
A still of Kermit the Frog in Spirited Away (2001)
A still of Kermit the Frog in Star Wars (1977)
A still of Kermit the Frog in The Grand Budapest Hotel (2014)
A still of Homer Simpson in Psycho (1960)
A still of Homer Simpson in The Godfather (1972)
Annie Leibovitz-style photo portrait of Nyan Cat
posted by straight at 9:59 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
John Calvin Drinking Mountain Dew Baha Blast
Karl Barth Playing a Nintendo Switch
A still of Kermit the Frog in The Matrix (1999)
A still of Kermit the Frog in Spirited Away (2001)
A still of Kermit the Frog in Star Wars (1977)
A still of Kermit the Frog in The Grand Budapest Hotel (2014)
A still of Homer Simpson in Psycho (1960)
A still of Homer Simpson in The Godfather (1972)
Annie Leibovitz-style photo portrait of Nyan Cat
posted by straight at 9:59 AM on June 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am enthralled with Janelle Shane's logo hacking on DALL-E. I'd totally eat an ice cream cone from Qui Rearn (aka Dairy Queen).
It is also neat that some of DALL-E's attempts at language come close to the Splatoon universe.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:32 AM on June 9, 2022
It is also neat that some of DALL-E's attempts at language come close to the Splatoon universe.
posted by JoeZydeco at 10:32 AM on June 9, 2022
Nose/Off is the forthcoming prequel set in the Renaissance.
Not to be confused with the "Noses Off" stage play.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:49 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not to be confused with the "Noses Off" stage play.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:49 AM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Stained glass windows from the State Church on Coruscant (nitter link)
Darth Vader-themed kid’s bedroom, designed by Keith Haring (nitter)
Dancing with the Star Wars (nitter)
posted by BungaDunga at 11:11 AM on June 9, 2022
Darth Vader-themed kid’s bedroom, designed by Keith Haring (nitter)
Dancing with the Star Wars (nitter)
posted by BungaDunga at 11:11 AM on June 9, 2022
Can we stop laundering the reputations of alt-right figures? What next? Steve Bannon's desert island discs?
posted by acb at 12:37 PM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by acb at 12:37 PM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
So if the moose was drunk all the time was it an elkaholic?
posted by The otter lady at 12:52 PM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by The otter lady at 12:52 PM on June 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
That's probably why it was denied membership in the Elks Club.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:16 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:16 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
(I have now thought/read/written the word "elk" enough times that it has become a random nonsense noise)
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:17 PM on June 9, 2022
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:17 PM on June 9, 2022
Alces alces alcoholensis, the filthy English pig-dog sister-biting møøse, smelling of elderberry wine
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 1:18 PM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 1:18 PM on June 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Well, it's good to see the rationalists continue their predicted trajectory toward unambiguous cult-hood.
posted by pan at 4:09 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by pan at 4:09 PM on June 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Noting that it’s possible to peruse hilarious pictures on Twitter using the hashtag #dalle and not have to give Scott Alexander a single click.
I briefly dated a rationalist (math PhD, long tenure at Google, high on his own supply.) He was dead set against democracy, to the point that “not voting was the closest thing to religion” to him. Also he believed that people who froze their heads in hopes of being reinstantiated in some way post death were “rational”. In sum, those fuckers are crazy and dangerous.
posted by Sublimity at 9:34 AM on June 10, 2022
I briefly dated a rationalist (math PhD, long tenure at Google, high on his own supply.) He was dead set against democracy, to the point that “not voting was the closest thing to religion” to him. Also he believed that people who froze their heads in hopes of being reinstantiated in some way post death were “rational”. In sum, those fuckers are crazy and dangerous.
posted by Sublimity at 9:34 AM on June 10, 2022
> (I have now thought/read/written the word "elk" enough times that it has become a random nonsense noise)
Semantelk satiation
posted by Pronoiac at 2:47 AM on June 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Semantelk satiation
posted by Pronoiac at 2:47 AM on June 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't really know that much backstory on Alexander or Yudkowsky and I'm not sure I really care to; I thought the post was reasonably fun, and to be honest I'm not seeing all that much in Yudkowsky's "Twelve Virtues" that's offensive, either. (Beats the hell out of the Ten Commandments, at least, not that being better guidelines than something from the Late Bronze Age ought to really be a high bar.)
This strikes me as yet another variant of the Orson Scott Card Problem. Shitty people occasionally produce worthwhile stuff. This doesn't make them not-shitty, but their personal shittiness also doesn't make the thing they produced necessarily subjectively bad, either. I refuse to commercially support such people, but it seems self-defeating to me to refuse to engage with what might be a good idea or interesting creative product because the person who produced it was an asshole. (These days, if I recommend Enders Game to someone, it comes with a warning and a followup email with a pirated MOBI of the book. Suck on that, Card.) And honestly, the number of good ideas and interesting creative products produced by demonstrably good people seems... smaller than I'd want to limit myself to, personally.
And in fields where we have the ability to judge ideas as being correct (or at least predictive, which is defined as correct within the bounds of those fields), there doesn't seem to be a strong relationship between being a good person and being right. Simultaneously, being correct in one area doesn't seem to be any sort of assurance about another. Newton was right about mechanics and orbits; he was also a believer in young-earth creationism. Voltaire "stamped out the fires of fanaticism and ignorance", but was also a proponent of racist polygenism. Darwin ably described evolution, but also found spurious reasons to justify male domination of women. Einstein was pretty racist. Heisenberg aided the Nazis. Feynman... was Feynman. Etc.
You can pick and choose from the intellectual buffet without making a three-course meal out of any one offering.
If reading some guy's milquetoast treatise on rationalism (or AI-generated stained glass) is all that it takes to turn you into a eugenicist or a racist, well, there's a good chance you were probably headed that way to begin with.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:59 PM on June 11, 2022
This strikes me as yet another variant of the Orson Scott Card Problem. Shitty people occasionally produce worthwhile stuff. This doesn't make them not-shitty, but their personal shittiness also doesn't make the thing they produced necessarily subjectively bad, either. I refuse to commercially support such people, but it seems self-defeating to me to refuse to engage with what might be a good idea or interesting creative product because the person who produced it was an asshole. (These days, if I recommend Enders Game to someone, it comes with a warning and a followup email with a pirated MOBI of the book. Suck on that, Card.) And honestly, the number of good ideas and interesting creative products produced by demonstrably good people seems... smaller than I'd want to limit myself to, personally.
And in fields where we have the ability to judge ideas as being correct (or at least predictive, which is defined as correct within the bounds of those fields), there doesn't seem to be a strong relationship between being a good person and being right. Simultaneously, being correct in one area doesn't seem to be any sort of assurance about another. Newton was right about mechanics and orbits; he was also a believer in young-earth creationism. Voltaire "stamped out the fires of fanaticism and ignorance", but was also a proponent of racist polygenism. Darwin ably described evolution, but also found spurious reasons to justify male domination of women. Einstein was pretty racist. Heisenberg aided the Nazis. Feynman... was Feynman. Etc.
You can pick and choose from the intellectual buffet without making a three-course meal out of any one offering.
If reading some guy's milquetoast treatise on rationalism (or AI-generated stained glass) is all that it takes to turn you into a eugenicist or a racist, well, there's a good chance you were probably headed that way to begin with.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:59 PM on June 11, 2022
Shitty people occasionally produce worthwhile stuff. This doesn't make them not-shitty, but their personal shittiness also doesn't make the thing they produced necessarily subjectively bad, either.
Here's the thing - there's also a lot of worthwhile stuff made by non-shitty people, that we could be promoting instead of the product of people who are profoundly bigoted, and whose bigotries potentially inform their work (and so their work can't be trusted to not be transmitting bigoted ideals.) So instead of giving someone a pirated copy of Card's work, a better answer would be to introduce them to authors like Ursula LeGuin, Octavia Butler, and N.K. Jemisin, to name a few. As was pointed out once, perhaps we'd have more art by women and other marginalized groups if we had fewer assholes making it.
Feynman... was Feynman.
This attitude can go fuck off. Feynman was a sexist, misogynistic asshole, as his practice of using his female students as nude models should make abundantly clear. And as the story of Rosalind Franklin illustrates, turning a blind eye to the misogyny and other bigotries in science has had a dear price born by the dispossessed. How many brilliant minds have been squandered because a man's ego was considered more important?
If reading some guy's milquetoast treatise on rationalism (or AI-generated stained glass) is all that it takes to turn you into a eugenicist or a racist, well, there's a good chance you were probably headed that way to begin with.
This fundamentally misunderstands the problem. It's a pipeline, and these are the entry points in. Furthermore, writing off people because they get caught in that pipeline (which is designed to lure people in) is the height of indolence in my opinion.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:08 PM on June 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Here's the thing - there's also a lot of worthwhile stuff made by non-shitty people, that we could be promoting instead of the product of people who are profoundly bigoted, and whose bigotries potentially inform their work (and so their work can't be trusted to not be transmitting bigoted ideals.) So instead of giving someone a pirated copy of Card's work, a better answer would be to introduce them to authors like Ursula LeGuin, Octavia Butler, and N.K. Jemisin, to name a few. As was pointed out once, perhaps we'd have more art by women and other marginalized groups if we had fewer assholes making it.
Feynman... was Feynman.
This attitude can go fuck off. Feynman was a sexist, misogynistic asshole, as his practice of using his female students as nude models should make abundantly clear. And as the story of Rosalind Franklin illustrates, turning a blind eye to the misogyny and other bigotries in science has had a dear price born by the dispossessed. How many brilliant minds have been squandered because a man's ego was considered more important?
If reading some guy's milquetoast treatise on rationalism (or AI-generated stained glass) is all that it takes to turn you into a eugenicist or a racist, well, there's a good chance you were probably headed that way to begin with.
This fundamentally misunderstands the problem. It's a pipeline, and these are the entry points in. Furthermore, writing off people because they get caught in that pipeline (which is designed to lure people in) is the height of indolence in my opinion.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:08 PM on June 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
Further, no one (or at least very few people) is saying to ignore the value created by people with problematic views.
It is entirely possible to appreciate the work, artistic or intellectual, done by people with problematic views and attitudes.
The first step is to acknowledge the problematic part, recognize that criticism of that person for their views is valid, and recognizing that people have the right to choose for themselves where they draw the line and which work they can/will continue to appreciate despite the creator's problems and which they will not.
We must acknowledge that it is OK, and valid, for a person to say "no, I won't read or don't like X because the creator is Y".
The proper response to that statement is "I see, thanks for telling me. I'll stop bringing them up." And then to stop bringing them up around that person.
For an example, I personally enjoy HP Lovecraft. I also acknowledge that he was a white supremacist so extreme that even other white people of his era took exception to his extremism, his paralytic terror of race mixing permeates his work and is foundational for some of his cosmic horror ideas. If anyone out there chooses not to read Lovecraft because of his extreme racism that's entirely valid and I would never dream of trying to tell such a person that they really should try to push past it and appreciate it despite how awful Lovecraft was.
Everyone draws the line somewhere, even you. The place each person individually chooses to draw that line is valid and you shouldn't argue with them about it. Their mind, their choice.
Where it starts going bad, and where people have legitimate beef with other people's appreciation of a problematic creator, is if the people appreciating the problematic creator try to deny, downplay, or ignore the problems of the creator.
Someone who reads Lovcraft and tries to avoid talking about his white supremacy, or who tries to tell you it wasn't really all that bad, or that it was normal for people of his era, or whatever, that's a person who's making a mistake and someone who is appreciating problematic media wrong.
Because the biggest thing about appreciating problematic works is acknowledging the problems of the creator.
So yes, by all means feel free to appreciate the work produced by Scott Alexander if you choose. But a) acknowledge that he's got problems, b) don't deny that he's got problems, and c) don't tell others that they should ignore his problems because you think is work is great.
posted by sotonohito at 7:26 PM on June 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
It is entirely possible to appreciate the work, artistic or intellectual, done by people with problematic views and attitudes.
The first step is to acknowledge the problematic part, recognize that criticism of that person for their views is valid, and recognizing that people have the right to choose for themselves where they draw the line and which work they can/will continue to appreciate despite the creator's problems and which they will not.
We must acknowledge that it is OK, and valid, for a person to say "no, I won't read or don't like X because the creator is Y".
The proper response to that statement is "I see, thanks for telling me. I'll stop bringing them up." And then to stop bringing them up around that person.
For an example, I personally enjoy HP Lovecraft. I also acknowledge that he was a white supremacist so extreme that even other white people of his era took exception to his extremism, his paralytic terror of race mixing permeates his work and is foundational for some of his cosmic horror ideas. If anyone out there chooses not to read Lovecraft because of his extreme racism that's entirely valid and I would never dream of trying to tell such a person that they really should try to push past it and appreciate it despite how awful Lovecraft was.
Everyone draws the line somewhere, even you. The place each person individually chooses to draw that line is valid and you shouldn't argue with them about it. Their mind, their choice.
Where it starts going bad, and where people have legitimate beef with other people's appreciation of a problematic creator, is if the people appreciating the problematic creator try to deny, downplay, or ignore the problems of the creator.
Someone who reads Lovcraft and tries to avoid talking about his white supremacy, or who tries to tell you it wasn't really all that bad, or that it was normal for people of his era, or whatever, that's a person who's making a mistake and someone who is appreciating problematic media wrong.
Because the biggest thing about appreciating problematic works is acknowledging the problems of the creator.
So yes, by all means feel free to appreciate the work produced by Scott Alexander if you choose. But a) acknowledge that he's got problems, b) don't deny that he's got problems, and c) don't tell others that they should ignore his problems because you think is work is great.
posted by sotonohito at 7:26 PM on June 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
An Imgur bot account running Dall-E mini. Output under “comments”; standard warnings about internet rando comments apply.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:10 AM on June 23, 2022
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 2:10 AM on June 23, 2022
PSA: I'VE FINALLY GAINED ACCESS TO DALL-E 2 OMG
I'm still learning the ropes and seeing what works and what doesn't, but tomorrow afternoon (CST) I'll post a MetaTalk thread where I'll fulfill up to 50 image generation requests (that's the daily limit). So if you're interested start thinking of some good good prompts!
posted by Rhaomi at 11:10 AM on June 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm still learning the ropes and seeing what works and what doesn't, but tomorrow afternoon (CST) I'll post a MetaTalk thread where I'll fulfill up to 50 image generation requests (that's the daily limit). So if you're interested start thinking of some good good prompts!
posted by Rhaomi at 11:10 AM on June 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Note: I'm postponing this in light of today's horrible Court news; it doesn't feel right to run a light/fun thing like this when so many people are reeling and in pain. Maybe next week; in the meantime, support your local funds if you can.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:45 PM on June 24, 2022
posted by Rhaomi at 12:45 PM on June 24, 2022
Update: After accidentally getting stuck in the queue overnight, the DALL-E demo thread I mentioned last week should be going live on MetaTalk in about 3-4 hours. I've been hearing rumblings that the free beta period may be coming to an end soon, so definitely check it out if you have an interest in experimenting with AI art -- there's no telling how exclusive, expensive, limited, or delayed the final product will be!
posted by Rhaomi at 12:37 PM on July 1, 2022
posted by Rhaomi at 12:37 PM on July 1, 2022
Whoops, had another miscommunication re:the MetaTalk queue -- the DALL-E live demo thread should now be going up around 7:30 PM Eastern Time tomorrow (Saturday). Hopefully the beta will still be available through the weekend!
posted by Rhaomi at 6:21 PM on July 1, 2022
posted by Rhaomi at 6:21 PM on July 1, 2022
« Older He was told he held “too much influence” in the... | Nobel Endeavours Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:16 PM on June 8, 2022 [4 favorites]