Reading this on Phone? In the DB already.

July 18, 2022 10:28 AM

It’s no secret that U.S. government agencies have been obtaining and using location data collected by Americans’ smartphones. However, new documents obtained by the ACLU through an ongoing Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit now reveal the extent of this warrantless data collection. The 6,000-plus records reviewed by the civil rights organization contained approximately 336,000 location points across North America obtained from people’s phones. (a small example to be sure)
posted by sammyo (19 comments total)

I've always been suspicious of the Department of Homeland Security. I mean, what the heck is this organization? What do you want to bet that most of these phone records are of Democrats, and none are of the many homegrown terrorists that seem to be in the news every week massacring citizens?

How come no one seemed to notice that the Department of Homeland Security has its own army(!!) that they sent out against Portland racial justice protesters last year?
posted by eye of newt at 12:08 PM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]

Homeland Security. I mean the name screams fascist police state and yet here we are, 20 years later still acting as if everything's totally fine.
posted by flamk at 12:13 PM on July 18, 2022 [31 favorites]

Is it accurate to say that agencies don't need a warrant if:

1. You gave your private information voluntarily to a third party
2. The third party sells, gives away, or leaks your private information to the government
posted by meowzilla at 12:50 PM on July 18, 2022

I keep location off but still I know it is there. This phone has body sensors, I tuened them off, but the little running person, still shows up. Samsing has all kinds of need to know. I will never get a Samsung phone again. It is like you buy a refrigerator, and the refrigerator wants your phone number, and would lime you to read it's version of the news. My phone is an appliance. I have so much disabled on this phone. And it still doesn't matter.
posted by Oyéah at 12:54 PM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]

I'd consider myself fairly well-informed about this stuff, and I only recently discovered that the iPhone can keep a log of all the location/contact/photo/network requests that apps are doing in the background. It clearly works better than checking to see what apps have lit up the "location icon" in the settings app every minute.

It's a feature that Apple added seven months ago: About App Privacy Report but it wasn't enabled on my phone.

I think some versions of Android may have had this (or I might be remembering my brief foray into CyanogenMod).

Kind of horrifying to see I have some apps which are checking my location every five minutes for unclear reasons.
posted by meowzilla at 1:05 PM on July 18, 2022 [10 favorites]

I have so much disabled on this phone. And it still doesn't matter.

Yeah, I mean I've recently switched to LineageOS with MicroG, but that's to reduce data leakage of all types to Google and other companies, rather than the government. I think the only reasonable way to really stop data leakage as much as possible is to use a linux distro like Ubuntu Touch, but wow is that barely usable as a smartphone. And of course the cell companies still have rough location data just from triangulation.

Like so many other problems, it just feels insurmountable, especially on a macro scale.
posted by god hates math at 1:06 PM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]

Even if you disable all location services on your phone, and prevent all leakage from the apps or operating system... if you connect to towers your cellphone provider has pretty accurate location data anyways, and they can and do sell/share this information.
posted by Lafe at 1:26 PM on July 18, 2022 [9 favorites]

acting as if everything's totally fine.

I completely agree with the sentiment, but in fairness, an awful lot of us are not acting as if everything's totally fine. 20 years of knowing full well that things are not fine but never seeing it change is a part of why many of us are as messed up as we are now.
posted by biogeo at 1:42 PM on July 18, 2022 [27 favorites]

Can someone please post something I can sign or send to a public representative or something?
posted by aniola at 2:39 PM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]

Question: If I power the phone off, they still track my stuff and talk to cell towers? Or not while it's off?
posted by Glinn at 2:58 PM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]

Note that if you use Tile trackers, they were acquired last year by a company who is “one of the largest sources of data” for location brokers.
posted by credulous at 3:20 PM on July 18, 2022 [4 favorites]

Question: If I power the phone off, they still track my stuff and talk to cell towers?

<paranoia mode> There are for very good reasons lots of research on very low power technologies. So, if the phone is fully powered down it's not transmitting. Now how does one really know that the power is totally off? Can't remove an iphone battery. But even if the battery is removed, could there be another micro battery? Legitimately to maintain time but also for very low power transmissions? I assume that tricks like that are not occurring as folks with test equipment are testing phones and would scream if seriously nefarious stuff was occurring but it's conceivable that a passive tracker could be added to phones that could be sensed by passing near a node or other phone. So I think the answer is "no one really knows".
posted by sammyo at 3:36 PM on July 18, 2022 [3 favorites]

Glinn, if the phone is completely off. Meaning that you have powered it down and it is no longer drawing power. The phone is not be able to communicate or track you.

Depending on the phone and carrier, connecting the phone to a charger may allow the baseband PMIC (the "cell phone" part of the phone) to communicate without any externally visible signs.

The best way of avoiding tracking is to purchase iPhones or Google branded phones, not from a carrier, only use a carrier that is based in a GDPR country, and never install carrier apps or software. This prevents the easiest way to access your data, which is the bulk collection and resale route.

Realistically, there is no way for a "normal" adult to avoid bulk location gathering because of the way that cell tower monetization and DPI works, combined with electronic payments, in-car entertainment, and automated license plate scanners. You would need to walk everywhere, pay cash, never use the internet.

The only way out is to elect politicians that will slow or reverse the police state.

Source: I used to run AT&T's data collection business
posted by pdoege at 3:44 PM on July 18, 2022 [29 favorites]

Not to thread sit, but...

Sammyo, lots of people know. We (big carriers that sell phones) specifically back door the baseband and AP in order to collect and send location data. Paying customers agree to this as part of their service contracts. All of this is above board and very, very legal.

The only way out is to buy phones directly from manufacturers who refuse to allow access to their baseband and AP codebase. As far as I know, the only two companies that do so are Apple and Google.

In all honesty this only moves the issue to the cell tower, electronic payment, IVI, license plate level. So it is not much of a win, and I would not panic and buy an iPhone because of my advice.
posted by pdoege at 3:49 PM on July 18, 2022 [2 favorites]

Question: If I power the phone off, they still track my stuff and talk to cell towers?

Apple has a "feature" that allows you to find a turned-off iPhone: iOS 15: Find My network can still find your iPhone when it is powered off, or factory reset

It's using a very low power setting, and and the bluetooth radios and location data of everyone else in the area with an iPhone, to find it.

Granted, this location information should only exist in Apple's private "Find" database (not through the normal app channels), and you can turn it off entirely in the link. But the info is still there.
posted by meowzilla at 4:07 PM on July 18, 2022 [8 favorites]

But even if the battery is removed, could there be another micro battery? Legitimately to maintain time but also for very low power transmissions?

i'm not sure how useful very low power transmissions would be, but i suppose a micro battery could write location data to the memory and send it later when you turned the phone back on

i have no idea whether anyone's doing that, but i think it would be possible
posted by pyramid termite at 6:13 PM on July 18, 2022

I wonder if there are RFID-like cases for phones that can have their shape mechanically changed to alternatively "hide" or "expose" the device inside.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:57 PM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]

Question: If I power the phone off, they still track my stuff and talk to cell towers?

The NSA has been able to since 2004. If I understand correctly, the phones had to be compromised after which they would "play dead" but keep transmitting instead of powering down. Who knows how far the tech has been developed since then. And per meowzilla, the phone doesn't have to be compromised if it's a feature.
posted by l.t.smash at 10:23 PM on July 18, 2022 [1 favorite]

There’s a lot of hand-wringing here about a lot of things that are personal doomsday level, like the entire apparatus of an agency being directed at you. What’s being reported is perhaps more pernicious - a private data aggregator Venntech, subject to no real oversight, specialize in collecting phone location data on millions of people from second party apps, and it’s for sale to apparently anyone who can afford it.

That DHS bought it is alarming, but these are on some level government agencies theoretically subject to public oversight. The fact that the collection is happening through shadowy private entities instead, and the marketplace exists at all, is/remains more terrifying to me. I suppose it’s possible some of these companies may even be cutouts set up to help the agencies avoid accountability, but I don’t know that we’ve seen any evidence of that.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:52 AM on July 19, 2022 [5 favorites]