Who doesn't want you to remember the SS Eastland?
October 14, 2022 10:21 AM Subscribe
Recently, Caitlin Doughty and her team at the YouTube channel Ask A Mortician published a long-form documentary about the disastrous sinking of the SS Eastland, one of the worst passenger shipping accidents in U.S. history. After being viewed several hundred thousand times, YouTube determined that the video violated its community guidelines. The explanation for the decision seems at odds with the video's actual content, but appeals have been met with automated responses or silence.
The SS Eastland was a passenger ship on the Great Lakes that sank in 1915, killing 844 people. The sinking is attributed to corporate greed, negligence, and corruption, with the owners prioritizing profits over passenger safety. Despite the magnitude of the disaster, it has been largely forgotten in the public consciousness, perhaps in part due to the fact that the victims were mostly working-class immigrants.
The designation of the documentary as in violation of community guidelines means that while the video is still available to view with a direct link, it is no longer recommended by YouTube's algorithm, effectively throttling its reach. Doughty describes her frustration that the work of both her team and the historians she worked with to produce the documentary is capriciously curtailed by a corporation without due process or appeal. The documentary includes historical photographs of dead bodies, presented within context and without gratuitous detail, similar to what would be found in a typical historical documentary on broadcast television.
MetaFilter has remembered the SS Eastland, previously, previously.
The SS Eastland was a passenger ship on the Great Lakes that sank in 1915, killing 844 people. The sinking is attributed to corporate greed, negligence, and corruption, with the owners prioritizing profits over passenger safety. Despite the magnitude of the disaster, it has been largely forgotten in the public consciousness, perhaps in part due to the fact that the victims were mostly working-class immigrants.
The designation of the documentary as in violation of community guidelines means that while the video is still available to view with a direct link, it is no longer recommended by YouTube's algorithm, effectively throttling its reach. Doughty describes her frustration that the work of both her team and the historians she worked with to produce the documentary is capriciously curtailed by a corporation without due process or appeal. The documentary includes historical photographs of dead bodies, presented within context and without gratuitous detail, similar to what would be found in a typical historical documentary on broadcast television.
MetaFilter has remembered the SS Eastland, previously, previously.
no warnings for me, it autoplayed when I clicked it.
posted by youthenrage at 10:38 AM on October 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 10:38 AM on October 14, 2022 [9 favorites]
YT has a history of demonetising content by women that doesn't suit traditional western femme roles.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:43 AM on October 14, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:43 AM on October 14, 2022 [23 favorites]
Unrelated to the S.S. Eastland, but related to the Youtube algorithm being all screwy -
There's a Youtube channel called How To Cook That, which started off as more of a simple cooking channel - but the host Ann Reardon has expanded out into debunking other Youtube craft and food videos. Recently one thing she debunked were other videos offering craft tutorials about "fractal woodburning" - a method to use electrical charges to burn tree patterns onto planks of wood. Ann's original video went into why this is extraordinarily dangerous, since most tutorials involve people trying to rewire the electrical unit from a microwave just willy-nilly. Ann's video explained why this was so dangerous and reported that there were 34 known deaths so far of people who had been trying to follow such a tutorial.
But shortly after she posted it, Youtube took it down for promoting dangerous practices. She was baffled - since she was explaining why they were dangerous and telling people NOT to do it, but she still found several videos that DID encourage people to do fractal woodburning. She made another quick video appealing to her followers explaining what was going on, and asking for their help. The public outcry resulted in Youtube reversing its decision about Ann's warning video - but there are still several "fractal wood burning" videos up on Youtube.
Youtube's algorithim and security system is seriously wack.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:45 AM on October 14, 2022 [55 favorites]
There's a Youtube channel called How To Cook That, which started off as more of a simple cooking channel - but the host Ann Reardon has expanded out into debunking other Youtube craft and food videos. Recently one thing she debunked were other videos offering craft tutorials about "fractal woodburning" - a method to use electrical charges to burn tree patterns onto planks of wood. Ann's original video went into why this is extraordinarily dangerous, since most tutorials involve people trying to rewire the electrical unit from a microwave just willy-nilly. Ann's video explained why this was so dangerous and reported that there were 34 known deaths so far of people who had been trying to follow such a tutorial.
But shortly after she posted it, Youtube took it down for promoting dangerous practices. She was baffled - since she was explaining why they were dangerous and telling people NOT to do it, but she still found several videos that DID encourage people to do fractal woodburning. She made another quick video appealing to her followers explaining what was going on, and asking for their help. The public outcry resulted in Youtube reversing its decision about Ann's warning video - but there are still several "fractal wood burning" videos up on Youtube.
Youtube's algorithim and security system is seriously wack.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:45 AM on October 14, 2022 [55 favorites]
I learned about this disaster at the Chicago History Museum, they have a really good exhibit about it. I've always been particularly struck by stories about people who died believing they were safe, being killed by people who knew they were not safe.
posted by bleep at 11:06 AM on October 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by bleep at 11:06 AM on October 14, 2022 [8 favorites]
Interesting - and rather bizarre move by YT. But as she pointed out, YT is just a distributor - they did not remove the video, they just aren't "promoting" it as they would other videos - which is really weird, because even I - a disinterested third-party - can tell that her video really is educational, not gratuitous, etc.
But she has many other distribution options - her website, Facebook, Vimeo, Reddit, etc, etc.
And FWIW - the video played fine for me, no warnings at all.
posted by davidmsc at 11:34 AM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
But she has many other distribution options - her website, Facebook, Vimeo, Reddit, etc, etc.
And FWIW - the video played fine for me, no warnings at all.
posted by davidmsc at 11:34 AM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
YT is just a distributor
That’s nonsense no matter who says it.
YouTube content is very actively managed at all levels, and they have made it almost impossible for creators, viewers, and commenters to find out what’s going on — and there is nothing unintentional about that, either.
Shadow bans of commenters are common, and I’ve seen videos by three creators whose channels I subscribe to agonizing over the possibility that some video of theirs might have been shadow banned, but YouTube refuses to give them any information.
YouTube desperately needs a powerful ombudsman system, but that’s about as likely to happen as Amazon endorsing unionization of all its distribution systems.
posted by jamjam at 12:10 PM on October 14, 2022 [39 favorites]
That’s nonsense no matter who says it.
YouTube content is very actively managed at all levels, and they have made it almost impossible for creators, viewers, and commenters to find out what’s going on — and there is nothing unintentional about that, either.
Shadow bans of commenters are common, and I’ve seen videos by three creators whose channels I subscribe to agonizing over the possibility that some video of theirs might have been shadow banned, but YouTube refuses to give them any information.
YouTube desperately needs a powerful ombudsman system, but that’s about as likely to happen as Amazon endorsing unionization of all its distribution systems.
posted by jamjam at 12:10 PM on October 14, 2022 [39 favorites]
It appears one must be signed-in to YT in order to view the video. Age-restricted, it says.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:22 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 1:22 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
People I know have been banned from YT (though successfully reversed on appeal) when they had nothing hosted on it but anodyne personal content. I’m pretty sure one problem is that the moderation system gets abused in targeted ways but it’s also just a mess.
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 1:23 PM on October 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've seen varied estimates but according to some sources roughly 80 years (~700,000 hours) of video are uploaded to YouTube daily. It's not that surprising that content moderation is largely automated in ways that are vulnerable to malicious abuse. An abdication of responsibility by Google yes, but not a simple problem to solve.
posted by Wretch729 at 1:33 PM on October 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 1:33 PM on October 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Telling you again that channels by chumps (the vast majority) are moderated by algorithm; channels with any significant reach are absolutely moderated by humans with a heavy handed socio-norming agenda. You want prima facie example of how humans will hide their own shitty decisions behind "the algorithm" YT is absolutely 100% it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:43 PM on October 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:43 PM on October 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
There was a brief period when pro-Ukrainian channels were demonetized, or at least I saw a couple of them talking about it. It was quickly reversed on appeal, but it's weird that it happened.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:55 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:55 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
No content warning for me. The video was really well done and informative. I'm a lifelong, 51 year old Chicagoan, and I had heard about this story but never in this detail. As a side note, I've been to the Bohemian National Cemetery and have seen the Eastland monument.
I've subscribed to this channel. Thanks for the post.
posted by SoberHighland at 2:04 PM on October 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I've subscribed to this channel. Thanks for the post.
posted by SoberHighland at 2:04 PM on October 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think the issue is that you don't need a very big discord channel to coordinate a flood of false reports, and it's not hard to auto-trigger an age restriction or content warning.
Youtube is either ignoring the problem or actively making it worse, I'm sure.
posted by ryanrs at 2:21 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Youtube is either ignoring the problem or actively making it worse, I'm sure.
posted by ryanrs at 2:21 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
well, it's had 660,576 views (as of 2:33 pm, Oct-14) so something's working ...
posted by philip-random at 2:33 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 2:33 PM on October 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm so glad to see this posted here. Ask a Mortician and Order of the Good Death are doing excellent work and seek to tell stories and support communities that are often overlooked.
Ask A Mortician long-form videos take months of work and can get over 6M views; 600,000 views (most prior to the notification of the "violation") is low.
If you're a goth, history nerd or just kind of curious, I highly recommend subscribing. Also, they made an excellent death positive podcast called Death in the Afternoon.
posted by annaramma at 3:00 PM on October 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
Ask A Mortician long-form videos take months of work and can get over 6M views; 600,000 views (most prior to the notification of the "violation") is low.
If you're a goth, history nerd or just kind of curious, I highly recommend subscribing. Also, they made an excellent death positive podcast called Death in the Afternoon.
posted by annaramma at 3:00 PM on October 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
I don't buy the youtube conspiratorial notions. The big problem Youtube seems to have is that moderation is so opaque, nobody knows what will be demonitised or pulled. Which is probably the algorithm. And things seem to get demonitised and pulled when a video gets flagged by viewers, for all kinds of reasons up to and including fuckery, which is probably by actual moderators. So on the whole moderation appears to be (and may very well be) arbitrary. And still opaque.
It makes things hard for people trying to earn a living doing Youtube videos. Then again, nobody ever said making Youtube videos for a living was supposed to be easy.
FWIW, the page demands that one sign in to view. My work computer, which is not signed into any site, wouldn't show me the video unless I signed in to verify my age. My home computer, which is always signed into my Youtube account, goes straight to the video, no barriers.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:09 PM on October 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
It makes things hard for people trying to earn a living doing Youtube videos. Then again, nobody ever said making Youtube videos for a living was supposed to be easy.
FWIW, the page demands that one sign in to view. My work computer, which is not signed into any site, wouldn't show me the video unless I signed in to verify my age. My home computer, which is always signed into my Youtube account, goes straight to the video, no barriers.
posted by 2N2222 at 4:09 PM on October 14, 2022 [5 favorites]
Is there any credible info on what constitutes the threshold for "significant reach" leading to human moderation? I'd be interested to read more about that.
posted by Wretch729 at 4:19 PM on October 14, 2022
posted by Wretch729 at 4:19 PM on October 14, 2022
I watched the video shortly after it was released, and shared it on my own social media. Short of copyright or participant release violations, there was nothing offensive, gruesome or beyond a twelve year old child's understanding. In fact, it was well done, and a good jumping off point to learn more about this event -- and no account I read was significantly different from Doughty's video. In other words, short of pedantic examination., the video appeared to be factually correct.
It makes me wonder the reason the YouTube took the action they did. Doughty is a relatively high earner on the platform, so it is puzzling why they are not giving her specific information.
posted by wolpfack at 4:35 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
It makes me wonder the reason the YouTube took the action they did. Doughty is a relatively high earner on the platform, so it is puzzling why they are not giving her specific information.
posted by wolpfack at 4:35 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
it's just like anything else in our 21st century world - they just want to rake in the cash and not be bothered with actually thinking about what they're doing
posted by pyramid termite at 7:55 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 7:55 PM on October 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't buy the youtube conspiratorial notions. The big problem Youtube seems to have is that moderation is so opaque, nobody knows what will be demonitised or pulled. Which is probably the algorithm.
This belief that algorithms are neutral and every problem is just some "mistake" really, really needs to die. This has been discussed endlessly on metafilter, to the point that I don't even know where to start. The metric is engagement. Ragebait, conspiracies, right-wing beliefs about how the world is being taken over by "lefties", anger, resentment all drive engagement. The "algorithm" (there is no such single thing as "the algorithm", so, youtube in general) absolutely encourages this, because it is designed to do that: push videos that increase engagement.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:37 PM on October 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
This belief that algorithms are neutral and every problem is just some "mistake" really, really needs to die. This has been discussed endlessly on metafilter, to the point that I don't even know where to start. The metric is engagement. Ragebait, conspiracies, right-wing beliefs about how the world is being taken over by "lefties", anger, resentment all drive engagement. The "algorithm" (there is no such single thing as "the algorithm", so, youtube in general) absolutely encourages this, because it is designed to do that: push videos that increase engagement.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:37 PM on October 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
One way or another, it looks like this is getting some traction again. It's up from 650k views this morning to 711k now.
posted by Braeburn at 3:59 AM on October 15, 2022
posted by Braeburn at 3:59 AM on October 15, 2022
A creator I watch, Jessie Gender, did a four hour video about Christian Fascist Matt Walsh (no, he really calls himself that!) and debunking his transphobic movie “What Is A Woman?”, and it got taken down for sexual content - of which there was none - about two hours later. Along with warnings that if she got another hit like this, she could be demonetized or just completely deleted. The prevailing belief is that the TERF-to-fascist pipeline groups went into mass report mode and used the worse possible option (which to them is ‘true’) because in the marketplace of ideas, they’re selling rotten onions and she was showing the details of it.
This is after a takedown of a video she did on queer content in “House of the Dragon” for copyright violation for using clips from the show, despite it falling under fair use rules.
And there doesn’t seem to be a good option for her to get it fixed. YouTube desperately needs something like a decent appeals system.
posted by mephron at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is after a takedown of a video she did on queer content in “House of the Dragon” for copyright violation for using clips from the show, despite it falling under fair use rules.
And there doesn’t seem to be a good option for her to get it fixed. YouTube desperately needs something like a decent appeals system.
posted by mephron at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
mehpron, I was just going to mention that. It's probably a coincidence that this happened at the same time to two longform video essayists with leftish politics, but it triggers the conspiracy part of my brain.
posted by giltay at 8:09 AM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by giltay at 8:09 AM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Any thoughts about alternatives to youtube? Vevo, Nebula, etc.?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:42 AM on October 15, 2022
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:42 AM on October 15, 2022
Just here to say that Caitlin Doughty has books, and I have read (and loved) "Will my cat eat my eyeballs."
No viewer warnings to click through on those books.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 10:56 AM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
No viewer warnings to click through on those books.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 10:56 AM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just now I was able to play the video. No age or content warnings, but I'm logged in.
I like Ask a Mortician very much. This is a stupid move by YT.
posted by doctornemo at 4:19 PM on October 15, 2022
I like Ask a Mortician very much. This is a stupid move by YT.
posted by doctornemo at 4:19 PM on October 15, 2022
People forget that an algorithm is nothing more than the assumptions of those who create it, frozen into place; at best, it is inevitable that it will fail at some point to "judge" appropriately, as it encounters situations that those encoding those assumptions failed to consider; and at worst, it is a way of entrenching bias and venal motivations behind a façade of rational neutrality. It doesn't matter how thoroughly its creators think they account for all contingencies, even with the best of intentions; it will be as flawed as they are.
Final judgments need to be made, transparently and accountably, by people who can respond to new information and the increased understanding that comes from it, rather than by those hiding behind frozen code and pretending that it is some sort of infallible demi-god to which they can defer responsibility.
Never send an algorithm to do a human's job.
posted by Philofacts at 6:19 PM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Final judgments need to be made, transparently and accountably, by people who can respond to new information and the increased understanding that comes from it, rather than by those hiding behind frozen code and pretending that it is some sort of infallible demi-god to which they can defer responsibility.
Never send an algorithm to do a human's job.
posted by Philofacts at 6:19 PM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've met her and say without reservation that Caitlin Doughty is a mensch, a remarkably charismatic human being, and a gloriously gifted speaker, too. She does Hawaii proud and is one of my Honolulu circle's current heroes.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:07 PM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:07 PM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
« Older Mystical Kaleidoscope | Sociologist. Artist. Digital Humanist. Musician.... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Gelatin at 10:25 AM on October 14, 2022 [5 favorites]