It might only taste like meat
December 21, 2022 6:02 AM Subscribe
Most meat substitutes might have a serious bioavailability problem for iron and zinc Most meat substitutes other than seitan and mushroom-based substitutes have high levels of phytates, presumably a way that plants defend themselves from animals. The zinc and iron can be present at high levels, but not for humans. Archive link.
It's possible that meat substitutes without phytates are feasible, and people might like them better, but meanwhile, I think the feeling of satiation from animal products should be studied rather than just trying to imitate the flavor and texture.
It's possible that meat substitutes without phytates are feasible, and people might like them better, but meanwhile, I think the feeling of satiation from animal products should be studied rather than just trying to imitate the flavor and texture.
Interesting but not concerning? Millions of vegetarians in the world already getting enough iron and zinc from plants and fungi.
posted by latkes at 6:41 AM on December 21, 2022 [33 favorites]
posted by latkes at 6:41 AM on December 21, 2022 [33 favorites]
I suppose it might be a problem if you decide to go vegetarian by getting all-in on meat substitutes without enough alternate sources of iron.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:49 AM on December 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 6:49 AM on December 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
> The body doesn't usually do well
What exactly does this mean? I’m a plant-based person who has eaten “fake meats” a few times a week for the past decade or so and my body seems to be doing fine?
posted by paulcole at 6:52 AM on December 21, 2022 [30 favorites]
What exactly does this mean? I’m a plant-based person who has eaten “fake meats” a few times a week for the past decade or so and my body seems to be doing fine?
posted by paulcole at 6:52 AM on December 21, 2022 [30 favorites]
I think this study is both interesting, and liable to be mis- or over-interpreted. It's not particularly surprising that legume-based foods would have phytates, since it's something you encounter whenever you're cooking with beans (as a vegetarian you'll often come across scare-articles with, like, did you realize you were eating ANTI-nutrients?). I suppose the surprising part is that they weren't being processed out, considering all the tortures the poor beans go through on their way to becoming burgers or whatever. Just cooking will reduce phytates to some degree.
As more people try out low-meat or meat-free diets, we do need more awareness of the nutritional needs that come up because of that--B12 probably the best-known example of something you may need to supplement. It's not particularly scary, or a reason to avoid a meat-free diet, since the benefits far outweigh the risks and costs of meat. That awareness should also involve the idea that you don't have to replace meat 1:1 with a processed plant protein, because processing itself is going to bring up other problems (salt content, as the study rightly points out, can be really high on some of these foods).
posted by mittens at 7:01 AM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
As more people try out low-meat or meat-free diets, we do need more awareness of the nutritional needs that come up because of that--B12 probably the best-known example of something you may need to supplement. It's not particularly scary, or a reason to avoid a meat-free diet, since the benefits far outweigh the risks and costs of meat. That awareness should also involve the idea that you don't have to replace meat 1:1 with a processed plant protein, because processing itself is going to bring up other problems (salt content, as the study rightly points out, can be really high on some of these foods).
posted by mittens at 7:01 AM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
I hope this means restaurants consider going back to bean/grain/legume/potato/etc burgers instead of the let's-pretend-it's-meat stuff. I like me a good veggie burger with all the fixin's, but Impossible Burgers are not it.
*kicks dirt* One of the main reasons I'm vegetarian is straight-up that I never much liked meat -- neither the texture nor the taste appeals. I don't want pretend-meat stuff to be my only option on restaurant menus, and I'm seeing that much more often than I used to.
posted by humbug at 7:14 AM on December 21, 2022 [31 favorites]
*kicks dirt* One of the main reasons I'm vegetarian is straight-up that I never much liked meat -- neither the texture nor the taste appeals. I don't want pretend-meat stuff to be my only option on restaurant menus, and I'm seeing that much more often than I used to.
posted by humbug at 7:14 AM on December 21, 2022 [31 favorites]
I'm with you, Humbug. Veggie burgers have actual inherent flavor. Impossible burgers... do not. The rush to industrial meat analogs seems to be taking us in the wrong direction, since vegetables are a sustainable source of food and stuff made in a lab is probably not. Not because Labs Are Bad, but because Labs Are Expensive And Don't Scale Well. And the lack of nutritional studies is also a bit of a red flag, though those will invariably come out in time.
Anyone in Austin who wants a truly mind-blowing veggie burger should check out Arlo's.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:26 AM on December 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Anyone in Austin who wants a truly mind-blowing veggie burger should check out Arlo's.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:26 AM on December 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think it is still true that Impossible/Beyond Burgers as we know them in the US are not available in the EU because the key ingredient, soy leghemoglobin (plant heme), is produced by genetically modified yeast that have not yet met EU approval. Plant heme gives those products much more iron than most other plant-based burgers, so their exclusion from this study (of products from a Swedish grocery store) affects the results of this study compared to the US market.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:29 AM on December 21, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 7:29 AM on December 21, 2022 [24 favorites]
Oh no! Well, that's it. Maybe one day we'll figure out how to add things like iron, zinc, or b12 to our bodies. Until then, dead animals it is. However, did you know that the best way to get all the nutrients out of meat is to go down to the slaughterhouse and do the dirty work youself, as opposed to paying for it through the supermarket meat aisle?
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:30 AM on December 21, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 7:30 AM on December 21, 2022 [14 favorites]
Fake meat products are designed for people who would never become vegetarian or even eat vegetarian once in a while. I'm a vegetarian and I do eat them occasionally, but only occasionally. I also lament the takeover of Impossible/Beyond burgers because it has meant the disappearance of veggie burgers, which taste a lot better.
Lab-grown meat is coming and I don't think the fake meats have much of a future, to be honest.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:30 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
Lab-grown meat is coming and I don't think the fake meats have much of a future, to be honest.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:30 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
The body doesn't usually do well with digesting such highly processed foods
Are you really confused about this? Do you think your body runs most efficiently on highly processed foods as opposed to whole foods?
Have you ever noticed the amount of indigestion and gas people report from eating chemistry lab concoctions of fake meats?
We didn't evolve as animals to eat this stuff and that makes a huge difference in the way we use it as fuel.
I'm not promoting meat, I think the world should be as vegetarian as possible. But if you think your boca burgers will supply you with a fraction of the energy and nutrition (especially iron) that even a hamburger will then you're seriously uninformed.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2022
Are you really confused about this? Do you think your body runs most efficiently on highly processed foods as opposed to whole foods?
Have you ever noticed the amount of indigestion and gas people report from eating chemistry lab concoctions of fake meats?
We didn't evolve as animals to eat this stuff and that makes a huge difference in the way we use it as fuel.
I'm not promoting meat, I think the world should be as vegetarian as possible. But if you think your boca burgers will supply you with a fraction of the energy and nutrition (especially iron) that even a hamburger will then you're seriously uninformed.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2022
I hope this means restaurants consider going back to bean/grain/legume/potato/etc burgers instead of the let's-pretend-it's-meat stuff. I like me a good veggie burger with all the fixin's, but Impossible Burgers are not it.
I'm with you on this. Ever since Beyond Burgers became a thing that is all that anyone does, it seems. I quite like a good garden burger or mushroom burger and I've often thought it was a great opportunity to have fun and try something interesting: the burger does not have to approximate meat, you can do anything in that form factor.
posted by selenized at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
I'm with you on this. Ever since Beyond Burgers became a thing that is all that anyone does, it seems. I quite like a good garden burger or mushroom burger and I've often thought it was a great opportunity to have fun and try something interesting: the burger does not have to approximate meat, you can do anything in that form factor.
posted by selenized at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Note that tempeh is good for iron and low in pthalates, in their conclusion: Eat more tempeh!
posted by kaibutsu at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by kaibutsu at 7:33 AM on December 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
Oh good Lord. My vegetarian kids grew up eating what seemed like little more than frozen veggie chicken nuggets, and they grew up healthy.
It's odd to me how much people seem concerned about the nutritional needs of vegetarians. We've been taking care of ourselves and our families just fine since... Well, forever.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 7:34 AM on December 21, 2022 [34 favorites]
It's odd to me how much people seem concerned about the nutritional needs of vegetarians. We've been taking care of ourselves and our families just fine since... Well, forever.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 7:34 AM on December 21, 2022 [34 favorites]
It's odd to me how much people seem concerned about the nutritional needs of vegetarians. We've been taking care of ourselves and our families just fine since... Well, forever.
It depends on your body type. Veg diet doesn't work for everyone, including many who are vegetarians.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:38 AM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
An animal-based diet doesn't work for everyone, including many who eat mostly meat and dairy.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:43 AM on December 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 7:43 AM on December 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
Are you really confused about this? Do you think your body runs most efficiently on highly processed foods as opposed to whole foods?
I'm not confused, I'm just pro evidence and against poorly-defined, natural-fallacy-laden harmful BULLSHIT WOO, even if it is meat flavored.
Anti "lab food" sentiment is an example of the basest form of ignorance. Some things that are natural are healthful, others harmful. Some things that are made in a lab with SCARY BEAKERS and MACHINES are healthful, others harmful. Any other statement based on "processing" or "artificiality" is a LIE, unsupported by evidence. We have words for people who promote lies.
posted by lalochezia at 7:46 AM on December 21, 2022 [23 favorites]
While we're voicing our more strident opinions, I'll mention that all of y'all who are disparaging Beyond Meat are wroooooooong. It's so tasty--but you have to cook it right! Just like anything else! You wouldn't mash unseasoned black beans into a burger shape and call it a day!
posted by mittens at 7:48 AM on December 21, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by mittens at 7:48 AM on December 21, 2022 [16 favorites]
My aunt took me out to a fancy and expensive restaurant that had nothing on the menu but meat, except for an Impossible Burger. I had recalled seeing a video where they cut into an Impossible Burger and red juice ran out, looking just like blood. No thanks! If I wanted something that bled when I stabbed it, I would just eat meat. Got the salad instead. Even it wasn't good.
posted by jabah at 7:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jabah at 7:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not confused, I'm just pro evidence and against poorly-defined, natural-fallacy-laden harmful BULLSHIT WOO, even if it is meat flavored.
Anti "lab food" sentiment is an example of the basest form of ignorance. Some things that are natural are healthful, others harmful. Some things that are made in a lab with SCARY BEAKERS and MACHINES are healthful, others harmful. Any other statement based on "processing" or "artificiality" is a LIE, unsupported by evidence. We have words for people who promote lies.
Huh? Quite the strawman argument you made there. Read about whole foods and nutrition if you care. Good luck.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:51 AM on December 21, 2022
Anti "lab food" sentiment is an example of the basest form of ignorance. Some things that are natural are healthful, others harmful. Some things that are made in a lab with SCARY BEAKERS and MACHINES are healthful, others harmful. Any other statement based on "processing" or "artificiality" is a LIE, unsupported by evidence. We have words for people who promote lies.
Huh? Quite the strawman argument you made there. Read about whole foods and nutrition if you care. Good luck.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:51 AM on December 21, 2022
1) Black bean veggie burgers are delicious. 2) Impossible burgers can also be delicious, especially if you're on a road trip 3) I have no real pony in this fight because it's been actual decades since I was a real vegetarian 4) It's almost Christmas which means standing rib roast and Yorkshire pudding for me and YUM 5) Weirdly, this thread has just made me crave french fries.
posted by thivaia at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 7:52 AM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Again, neither Beyond nor Impossible plant-heme burgers (yes, the ones with the red juices) would have been included in the Swedish study because they are not allowed in the EU, and they are, actually, quite high in bioavailable iron.
You can rant about whatever you want, I guess.
(Some people like them, especially people who have chosen not to eat meat for health or environmental reasons.)
posted by hydropsyche at 7:53 AM on December 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
You can rant about whatever you want, I guess.
(Some people like them, especially people who have chosen not to eat meat for health or environmental reasons.)
posted by hydropsyche at 7:53 AM on December 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
We didn't evolve as animals to eat this stuff and that makes a huge difference in the way we use it as fuel.
Do you think that chickens are a natural species?
Not to mention the antibiotics, ground up chicks, and fear that are cooked into every bite
posted by rhymedirective at 7:59 AM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Do you think that chickens are a natural species?
Not to mention the antibiotics, ground up chicks, and fear that are cooked into every bite
posted by rhymedirective at 7:59 AM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Read about whole foods and nutrition if you care. Good luck.
I feel like we can take it as read that someone posting on a metafilter thread about fake meats as a vegetarian is probably aware of how basic nutrition works. Bodies are different and most people eat a diet encompassing both optimally nutritious and non-optimally nutritious components, in varying balances, and are coping with that just fine.
And nothing in the article suggests our bodies can't "deal" with these fake meats, just that we are not getting the same nutrients from them as we would from real meat, which...okay? Not terrifically surprising? I don't get the same nutrients from a cookie shaped like a turkey as I do from a turkey, itself, and that doesn't mean my body can't "deal with" the cookie.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:59 AM on December 21, 2022 [35 favorites]
I feel like we can take it as read that someone posting on a metafilter thread about fake meats as a vegetarian is probably aware of how basic nutrition works. Bodies are different and most people eat a diet encompassing both optimally nutritious and non-optimally nutritious components, in varying balances, and are coping with that just fine.
And nothing in the article suggests our bodies can't "deal" with these fake meats, just that we are not getting the same nutrients from them as we would from real meat, which...okay? Not terrifically surprising? I don't get the same nutrients from a cookie shaped like a turkey as I do from a turkey, itself, and that doesn't mean my body can't "deal with" the cookie.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:59 AM on December 21, 2022 [35 favorites]
Have you ever noticed the amount of indigestion and gas people report from eating chemistry lab concoctions of fake meats?
Luckily beans and other legumes definitely never produce gas in the human body, certainly not enough for them to have a whole song about it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:01 AM on December 21, 2022 [52 favorites]
Luckily beans and other legumes definitely never produce gas in the human body, certainly not enough for them to have a whole song about it.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:01 AM on December 21, 2022 [52 favorites]
I'm totally cool with people who like Impossible Burgers having them. Go for it! I'm just sad at my restaurant horizons shrinking further.
If y'all are ever in the Perrot State Park area of southwest Wisconsin, I strongly recommend stopping off at the Trempealeau Hotel for their walnut burgers (also available as not-meatballs). I buy those retail because I can and they're a tasty treat.
posted by humbug at 8:03 AM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
If y'all are ever in the Perrot State Park area of southwest Wisconsin, I strongly recommend stopping off at the Trempealeau Hotel for their walnut burgers (also available as not-meatballs). I buy those retail because I can and they're a tasty treat.
posted by humbug at 8:03 AM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
I've been a vegan for 10+ years now and I will say that I like the Beyond/Impossible burger options especially during travel. It is a bummer that these analogues have replaced just a standard veggie burger, but to be honest, I'd only want a veggie burger done at a vegetarian/vegan place as most omni places serve a dry sad veggie burger. (YMMV where you are.)
Mushrooms are a no-go texture for me so I do not miss the portobello mushroom cap options.
posted by Kitteh at 8:10 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
Mushrooms are a no-go texture for me so I do not miss the portobello mushroom cap options.
posted by Kitteh at 8:10 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
We did "evolve" to eat processed foods, evolution created these processed foods and the internet too, you can tell because it's here.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:17 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:17 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
As far as I can tell, not only is there a lot of variation in which foods are good for people, there's also a lot of variation in whether people can tell how well-nourished they are.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:46 AM on December 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:46 AM on December 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have no idea why this subject drives so many people nuts, but I really wish it didn't.
posted by kyrademon at 8:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 8:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
Regarding the availability of Impossible/Beyond Meat in the EU, I have no problem finding Beyond products here in Barcelona, where there is quite an active local meat-alternatives industry providing homegrown options too. To my taste, the Flax&Kale burgers are better than Beyond, less salty.
posted by fellorwaspushed at 8:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by fellorwaspushed at 8:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
There are valid concerns with highly processed foods, specifically nutrient content (or lack thereof in many cases), but the notion that our bodies "can't handle them" is without merit. Preferences vary significantly among people.
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:51 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dark Messiah at 8:51 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
My wife is vegan, about 90% of my meals are vegan, and we both enjoy fake meat in certain contexts (the "chicken" and "beef" shreds in soups and stews, especially), but we weren't under any illusion that this stuff was healthy and as such we don't eat it that often. I don't know about the nutritional content, but the quality/taste of even the stuff you can buy at a regular supermarket has gone way up over the past five years; some of it is what I would consider prohibitively expensive, though.
A couple of friends of ours who aren't vegan serve their kids Beyond Burgers, which the kids actually prefer to beef, probably because those things are basically salt delivery systems and for a lot of kids that age (I was one of them) there's no such thing as "too salty."
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:55 AM on December 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
A couple of friends of ours who aren't vegan serve their kids Beyond Burgers, which the kids actually prefer to beef, probably because those things are basically salt delivery systems and for a lot of kids that age (I was one of them) there's no such thing as "too salty."
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:55 AM on December 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm indifferent to whether you want to eat meat: it's none of my business, really. But fake meats are ghastly abominations, both from a taste/texture perspective and from that of... I don't know, call it consistency, for lack of a better word. You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat. Just eat vegetables or whatever: that's fine. I live in a pretty "progressive" area, so any pre-Covid public gathering inevitably had at least one ardent proselytizing vegan trying to foist off fake meat as somehow "better". It is not: that "quorn" or whatever the fuck it is "chicken" does not feel, smell or taste like chicken.
I was at a holiday party just a few days ago and had a great bonding moment with a person whose preachy vegan-ness normally bemuses me, as it turned out she had the exact same reaction: "I gave up meat; why would I need fake meat?" So, that was nice.
[edit for clarity: a bean burger is not "fake meat" in this context: it's not pretending to be anything other than what it is. A bean burger can be pretty tasty, but I'll pick a real burger every time.]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:00 AM on December 21, 2022
I was at a holiday party just a few days ago and had a great bonding moment with a person whose preachy vegan-ness normally bemuses me, as it turned out she had the exact same reaction: "I gave up meat; why would I need fake meat?" So, that was nice.
[edit for clarity: a bean burger is not "fake meat" in this context: it's not pretending to be anything other than what it is. A bean burger can be pretty tasty, but I'll pick a real burger every time.]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:00 AM on December 21, 2022
I'm indifferent to whether you want to eat meat: it's none of my business, really. But fake meats are ghastly abominations, both from a taste/texture perspective and from that of... I don't know, call it consistency, for lack of a better word. You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat
I'm a vegan. I used to enjoy eating meat. Now I enjoy fake meat, and I like both Beyond and Impossible burgers.
It's just a dietary preference. You are welcome to your preference too, just please stop telling me that mine is an "abomination". I get this flack from meat eaters and vegans alike.
When vegans do this, I don't get it. Maybe it's meant to show superiority over other vegans? We're all on the same team, relax. Anything that moves the needle toward more people eating less meat is a win.
With meat eaters, perhaps this some attempt to exorcise cognitive dissonance over eating meat by telling me that my choices are "abominations"? Pot, meet kettle.
You do you, I'll do me.
posted by sheax0r at 9:12 AM on December 21, 2022 [43 favorites]
I'm a vegan. I used to enjoy eating meat. Now I enjoy fake meat, and I like both Beyond and Impossible burgers.
It's just a dietary preference. You are welcome to your preference too, just please stop telling me that mine is an "abomination". I get this flack from meat eaters and vegans alike.
When vegans do this, I don't get it. Maybe it's meant to show superiority over other vegans? We're all on the same team, relax. Anything that moves the needle toward more people eating less meat is a win.
With meat eaters, perhaps this some attempt to exorcise cognitive dissonance over eating meat by telling me that my choices are "abominations"? Pot, meet kettle.
You do you, I'll do me.
posted by sheax0r at 9:12 AM on December 21, 2022 [43 favorites]
I like to imagine people don’t change and it was campfire discussions like this that finally got some folks worked up enough that we ended up with Leviticus.
posted by meinvt at 9:13 AM on December 21, 2022 [28 favorites]
posted by meinvt at 9:13 AM on December 21, 2022 [28 favorites]
My body does not uptake plant heme, plant based B12, or plant proteins in any meaningful amounts. Mushroom protein is slightly better, but if I don't eat red meat AND supplement with the right types of iron and B12 I'm in a miserable brain fog until I do.
My doctor said this is actually fairly common, and people just get used to feeling that way. Even to the point of taking SSRIs and Adderall etc, not realizing their low mood and low energy isn't caused by depression or ADHD or whatever. She said she sees a lot of patients who are taking those meds but not getting consistent relief and she always tests them for nutrient uptake and that usually a big part of the issue.
posted by ananci at 9:13 AM on December 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
My doctor said this is actually fairly common, and people just get used to feeling that way. Even to the point of taking SSRIs and Adderall etc, not realizing their low mood and low energy isn't caused by depression or ADHD or whatever. She said she sees a lot of patients who are taking those meds but not getting consistent relief and she always tests them for nutrient uptake and that usually a big part of the issue.
posted by ananci at 9:13 AM on December 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
ananci, same here. So much so that I have to have iron infusions, which aren't without their drawbacks. I also take a multi-vitamin with folate and B-12. And if anyone wants to tell me that one weird trick for being unable to uptake plant heme but also being able to be a vegetarian, kindly keep that to yourself. Trust me that I've tried. Seriously, just don't.
posted by cooker girl at 9:17 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 9:17 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
The study. I'll note that everything about processing is being brought in by us commenters, it's not a subject of the study, which included falafel and other products they categorized as "whole bean". So yeah legumes and meat are different and neither subs 1:1 for the other.
It's fair to ask whether some products encourage that 1:1 substitution, and how this shapes whole diets, but that's not studied here.
(They tested falafel and tempeh but not tofu, I guess it wasn't in their supermarkets' fake-meat aisle?)
The "main meat with side veg and refined grains" diet was poor for many people's cardiovascular and cancer risks, but accidentally lots of iron. Sub in legume products 1:1, spin the wheel of nutrition!
(Is it odd that they didn't cook anything before analyzing?)
posted by away for regrooving at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2022
It's fair to ask whether some products encourage that 1:1 substitution, and how this shapes whole diets, but that's not studied here.
(They tested falafel and tempeh but not tofu, I guess it wasn't in their supermarkets' fake-meat aisle?)
The "main meat with side veg and refined grains" diet was poor for many people's cardiovascular and cancer risks, but accidentally lots of iron. Sub in legume products 1:1, spin the wheel of nutrition!
(Is it odd that they didn't cook anything before analyzing?)
posted by away for regrooving at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2022
With meat eaters, perhaps this some attempt to exorcise cognitive dissonance over eating meat by telling me that my choices are "abominations"? Pot, meet kettle.
See, this is what I mean by "I'm indifferent" to whether you want to eat meat or not. When you start making it a point of moral superiority? That's when I stop taking you seriously.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
See, this is what I mean by "I'm indifferent" to whether you want to eat meat or not. When you start making it a point of moral superiority? That's when I stop taking you seriously.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 9:19 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
This thread is a bit tense, so here's a joke to lighten up.
There's always been a thread of "DID YOU KNOW???" articles put out by the meat industry to spread FUD about a diet millions of people enjoy and/or benefit from in some way. Famously, the Cattlemen's Association tried to destroy the Food Pyramid back when the USDA had done a survey of nutrition and was about to recommend a vegetarian diet to all Americans.
We still hear echoes of the great misguided "BuT wHaT aBoUt PrOtEiN???" propaganda war from the same period. And it's still true that if you, like, eat an egg, you get enough amino acids to make more proteins than you do from a giant steak, and you can also just...eat some beans one day, and some grains another day, and you're most likely set for the week?
So yeah, listen to the vegetarians who say "It's genuinely not that big a deal, folks!" Sure I dunno, manage your b12 or balance calcium over iron if it soothes your anxieties, but are you actually anæmic? Maybe just vary your diet instead of worrying about the fact that no, you can't survive on only one ingredient, meat or otherwise and accept that nobody is actually doing that. It's cool.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:23 AM on December 21, 2022 [14 favorites]
- Q
- How do you know if someone is a self-important Steak Bro who hates vegetarians?
- A
- Oh, don't worry: they'll tell you!
There's always been a thread of "DID YOU KNOW???" articles put out by the meat industry to spread FUD about a diet millions of people enjoy and/or benefit from in some way. Famously, the Cattlemen's Association tried to destroy the Food Pyramid back when the USDA had done a survey of nutrition and was about to recommend a vegetarian diet to all Americans.
We still hear echoes of the great misguided "BuT wHaT aBoUt PrOtEiN???" propaganda war from the same period. And it's still true that if you, like, eat an egg, you get enough amino acids to make more proteins than you do from a giant steak, and you can also just...eat some beans one day, and some grains another day, and you're most likely set for the week?
So yeah, listen to the vegetarians who say "It's genuinely not that big a deal, folks!" Sure I dunno, manage your b12 or balance calcium over iron if it soothes your anxieties, but are you actually anæmic? Maybe just vary your diet instead of worrying about the fact that no, you can't survive on only one ingredient, meat or otherwise and accept that nobody is actually doing that. It's cool.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 9:23 AM on December 21, 2022 [14 favorites]
if it soothes your anxieties, but are you actually anæmic? is maybe not serving your tension-lowering goals?
Fair number of menstruating people are anemic BTW.
posted by away for regrooving at 9:39 AM on December 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Fair number of menstruating people are anemic BTW.
posted by away for regrooving at 9:39 AM on December 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Kyrademon, the subject is supposed to drive people to nuts, not nuts. He he he♡
posted by Oyéah at 9:45 AM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 9:45 AM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Speaking as an omnivore seeking to reduce my consumption of meat (for environmental and health reasons mostly, with ethics as a secondary purpose): I'm grateful for the existence of vegetable-based foods that are drop-in replacements for ground beef or sausage in recipes I make, and they come out pretty satisfactory. Vegetable-based patties in a context where they're supposed to really be front-and-center with meat flavor (e.g. a burger) don't do it for me—their differences from meat become too conspicuous in that context—but that's a matter of personal opinion and I can well see it scratching the itch for others who are reducing/eliminating meat from their diet.
But I also get that it's frustrating that the "vegetarian options" in dining are being replaced by "meat options with all the meat swapped out for non-meat", because, yeah, there are interesting things to be done with vegetables which don't hinge on starting from a meat-based dish and removing things (I cook a fair number of those things too; the existence of meat substitutes has not changed how I do them a single bit), and I get and concur with the frustrations that a lot of vegetarians (or non-vegetarians! sometimes you just want some tasty vegetables!) have with how "fake meat" has transformed the culinary landscape.
So, I guess my point is that there's a lot to be said both for and against imitation meat, and it's all valid. There's no real contradiction between "this makes being vegetarian easier for many people" and "this makes the options provided for vegetarians complacent and lazy".
posted by jackbishop at 9:49 AM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
But I also get that it's frustrating that the "vegetarian options" in dining are being replaced by "meat options with all the meat swapped out for non-meat", because, yeah, there are interesting things to be done with vegetables which don't hinge on starting from a meat-based dish and removing things (I cook a fair number of those things too; the existence of meat substitutes has not changed how I do them a single bit), and I get and concur with the frustrations that a lot of vegetarians (or non-vegetarians! sometimes you just want some tasty vegetables!) have with how "fake meat" has transformed the culinary landscape.
So, I guess my point is that there's a lot to be said both for and against imitation meat, and it's all valid. There's no real contradiction between "this makes being vegetarian easier for many people" and "this makes the options provided for vegetarians complacent and lazy".
posted by jackbishop at 9:49 AM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Fake meat products are designed for people who would never become vegetarian
This is accurate and Beyond Meat has even admitted as much. While it may not have been their original intention, their own research shows that most people who buy their products (the burger patties, at least, since the last I heard about this was before they expanded the product line) are meat eaters.
posted by asnider at 9:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is accurate and Beyond Meat has even admitted as much. While it may not have been their original intention, their own research shows that most people who buy their products (the burger patties, at least, since the last I heard about this was before they expanded the product line) are meat eaters.
posted by asnider at 9:50 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
> Any other statement based on "processing" or "artificiality" is a LIE, unsupported by evidence.
But there's plenty of evidence showing that ultraprocessed food is bad. It's pretty much the scientific consensus at this point.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:57 AM on December 21, 2022
But there's plenty of evidence showing that ultraprocessed food is bad. It's pretty much the scientific consensus at this point.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:57 AM on December 21, 2022
You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat
When my family goes out with my kids' friends or to birthday parties or to sports barbecues or to fundraisers, what they are offered are hot dogs, hamburgers, and pizza. My area is a very diverse one and at home kids are eating dal and roti and jollof rice...but the lingua franca of the community is burgers, hot dogs, and pizza.
It's perfectly okay to give people stepping stones or to produce look-alikes. Food is very complicated - it exists in a culture and in a food ecosystem.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:57 AM on December 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
When my family goes out with my kids' friends or to birthday parties or to sports barbecues or to fundraisers, what they are offered are hot dogs, hamburgers, and pizza. My area is a very diverse one and at home kids are eating dal and roti and jollof rice...but the lingua franca of the community is burgers, hot dogs, and pizza.
It's perfectly okay to give people stepping stones or to produce look-alikes. Food is very complicated - it exists in a culture and in a food ecosystem.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:57 AM on December 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
fellorwaspushed: This article from May won't let me copy and paste text (weird), but it is in particular the plant heme products, which I think are just the flagship burger patty, that are the GMO problem. All the other Beyond/Impossible products (crumbles, meatballs, chicken, sausage) don't include plant heme or any other GMO so they are being sold in the EU. And maybe the plant heme has been approved now? I just can't find any info more recent than May.
posted by hydropsyche at 9:57 AM on December 21, 2022
posted by hydropsyche at 9:57 AM on December 21, 2022
My doctor said this is actually fairly common, and people just get used to feeling that way.
Your doctor sounds like a quack, to be honest.
To be sure, there are medical conditions that mean you have an inability to digest or absorb certain things, but to say it is "fairly common" like 35% of vegetarians/vegans are wandering around barely missing stepping into traffic every day is completely ridiculous.
It sounds like the latest version of "plant proteins aren't complete" which has been shown to be incorrect.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:01 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
Your doctor sounds like a quack, to be honest.
To be sure, there are medical conditions that mean you have an inability to digest or absorb certain things, but to say it is "fairly common" like 35% of vegetarians/vegans are wandering around barely missing stepping into traffic every day is completely ridiculous.
It sounds like the latest version of "plant proteins aren't complete" which has been shown to be incorrect.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:01 AM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
My meat eating household bought a bag of Impossible breakfast sausage recently and it is so effing delicious that I started wondering, what is the carbon footprint of this ridiculous thing, because it fills the niche I am looking to fill so well that surely I must be going to hell for it?
Lots of sympathies to meat-avoiders like humbug who just don't like the stuff and don't want facsimiles either. Kinda like "gluten friendly" options on a menu: if the market moves to appeasing people who don't need a thing but simply want it, the people who need it lose something key.
posted by eirias at 10:22 AM on December 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Lots of sympathies to meat-avoiders like humbug who just don't like the stuff and don't want facsimiles either. Kinda like "gluten friendly" options on a menu: if the market moves to appeasing people who don't need a thing but simply want it, the people who need it lose something key.
posted by eirias at 10:22 AM on December 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do think some vegetarians and vegans are just…not honest about the potential nutritional drawbacks of their diet. They clearly don’t work for everyone and veganism especially opens the door for some nutritional deficiencies if you aren’t careful. I read the Reddit vegan boards sometimes and people can be really unforgiving to those having problems.
Fake meats are really not to blame for this though? And I don’t know anyone who eats them everyday. I see them as a delicious treat, I haven’t had red meat in 15 years but sometimes I just crave a burger or bacon or breakfast sausage, which aren’t exactly health foods anyway.
The best fake meat though is the stuff from vegetarian Chinese restaurants! And it has a long history in Buddhist cuisine — fake meats are nothing new under the sun.
posted by vanitas at 10:54 AM on December 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
Fake meats are really not to blame for this though? And I don’t know anyone who eats them everyday. I see them as a delicious treat, I haven’t had red meat in 15 years but sometimes I just crave a burger or bacon or breakfast sausage, which aren’t exactly health foods anyway.
The best fake meat though is the stuff from vegetarian Chinese restaurants! And it has a long history in Buddhist cuisine — fake meats are nothing new under the sun.
posted by vanitas at 10:54 AM on December 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
There's plenty of evidence showing that red meat is associated with colorectal cancer and some links to pancreatic cancer and prostate cancer. So?
Of course there are different health risks for different foods. Of course different diets will suit different people for different reasons.
But let's at least be aware that the livestock industry is currently facing existential challenges from non-animal meats, from consumers choosing to eat less meat, from increased awareness of the health impacts of meat, and from increased awareness and regulation of the environmental impacts of meat.
The Netherlands is currently proposing to buy out 3,000 farms due to the water pollution caused by those farms. Ireland is pushing for a 20% cut in cattle numbers. New Zealand might finally make farmers pay a tiny amount for their greenhouse gas emissions. The biggest emitters like the China and the US are ... ok, they ain't doing shit yet.
But point is, we're going to see plenty of articles claiming that either meat isn't as bad as [INSERT STRAW MAN ARGUMENT HERE] or that alternatives are unexpected terrible coz [INSERT THREATENINGLY VAGUE STATEMENT HERE]. And that this is all a matter of personal choice and not the consequence of political lobbying by large agricultural companies that represent a status quo that's more frightened than ever.
So let's read such articles with an awareness of this context.
posted by happyinmotion at 11:08 AM on December 21, 2022 [14 favorites]
Of course there are different health risks for different foods. Of course different diets will suit different people for different reasons.
But let's at least be aware that the livestock industry is currently facing existential challenges from non-animal meats, from consumers choosing to eat less meat, from increased awareness of the health impacts of meat, and from increased awareness and regulation of the environmental impacts of meat.
The Netherlands is currently proposing to buy out 3,000 farms due to the water pollution caused by those farms. Ireland is pushing for a 20% cut in cattle numbers. New Zealand might finally make farmers pay a tiny amount for their greenhouse gas emissions. The biggest emitters like the China and the US are ... ok, they ain't doing shit yet.
But point is, we're going to see plenty of articles claiming that either meat isn't as bad as [INSERT STRAW MAN ARGUMENT HERE] or that alternatives are unexpected terrible coz [INSERT THREATENINGLY VAGUE STATEMENT HERE]. And that this is all a matter of personal choice and not the consequence of political lobbying by large agricultural companies that represent a status quo that's more frightened than ever.
So let's read such articles with an awareness of this context.
posted by happyinmotion at 11:08 AM on December 21, 2022 [14 favorites]
See, this is what I mean by "I'm indifferent" to whether you want to eat meat or not. When you start making it a point of moral superiority? That's when I stop taking you seriously.
@outgrown_hobnail, you don't sound indifferent, particularly when you toss around the word "abomination".
My intent is not to cast aspersions on meat eaters: That's a debate that never goes anywhere good. I apologize for and withdraw my "pot, meet kettle" comment (but nothing else in my post).
I still don't understand why you care so much about the existence of fake meat: That is what I'm trying to figure out , with you and with all the other times I have encountered this. It seems like people *care* that this stuff exists, and they think it shouldn't.
Why does fake meat cause people to react so strongly?
posted by sheax0r at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
@outgrown_hobnail, you don't sound indifferent, particularly when you toss around the word "abomination".
My intent is not to cast aspersions on meat eaters: That's a debate that never goes anywhere good. I apologize for and withdraw my "pot, meet kettle" comment (but nothing else in my post).
I still don't understand why you care so much about the existence of fake meat: That is what I'm trying to figure out , with you and with all the other times I have encountered this. It seems like people *care* that this stuff exists, and they think it shouldn't.
Why does fake meat cause people to react so strongly?
posted by sheax0r at 11:15 AM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do think some vegetarians and vegans are just…not honest about the potential nutritional drawbacks of their diet. They clearly don’t work for everyone and veganism especially opens the door for some nutritional deficiencies if you aren’t careful. I read the Reddit vegan boards sometimes and people can be really unforgiving to those having problems.
This is definitely my experience in knowing a mix of evangelical and non-evangelical vegans. The ones who aren't actively promoting veganism will readily admit that eating a diet that covers all their nutritional needs can be a lot harder, especially if they have any other food sensitivities. I was a baker for a while and vegan baked goods: doable; gluten free baked goods, doable; vegan gluten free baked goods? Orders of magnitude harder than either on it's own, and that's just creating the food, much less covering the nutritional needs of the person eating it.
posted by Ferreous at 11:17 AM on December 21, 2022 [13 favorites]
This is definitely my experience in knowing a mix of evangelical and non-evangelical vegans. The ones who aren't actively promoting veganism will readily admit that eating a diet that covers all their nutritional needs can be a lot harder, especially if they have any other food sensitivities. I was a baker for a while and vegan baked goods: doable; gluten free baked goods, doable; vegan gluten free baked goods? Orders of magnitude harder than either on it's own, and that's just creating the food, much less covering the nutritional needs of the person eating it.
posted by Ferreous at 11:17 AM on December 21, 2022 [13 favorites]
Wow, this is intense. But I get it, I have been on the intense side of this for ages, and it took MetaFilter debates to teach me to see how there are many ways to deal with the need for change, when it comes to meat consumption.
Disgust is a very strong emotion, and disgust is on all sides of this discussion. Some find meat disgusting, others hate broccoli, and others again hate highly processed food. This is not a subject where people are easily converted: disgust is a primal feeling, beyond the rational.
About the nutrition element, it is safe to say that we humans are omnivores, not carnivores. We can get our proteins and vitamins B and D from an egg or two a week, or from a herring on buttered rye bread. Or a bit of yogurt or cheese. Or we can think a bit more over it and get it from a balanced vegan diet, perhaps with supplements.
For me, supplements don't work at all. I don't know how common that is, haven't bothered to look it up, but except for vitamin C, which I don't need as a supplement, all supplements lead to serious digestive issues. It was only a problem when I was pregnant, because normally I don't mind eating that weekly egg and herring. Or whatever works. And for most adults, supplements aren't needed.
In our family, we eat mostly vegetables because of the climate and because industrial farms are disgusting. We can't afford to eat organic free range meat seven days a week, and that is a feature, not a bug. There are tens of thousands of delicious recipes with no animal products and we haven't tried them all yet. But if we want meat or dairy or eggs, we splurge and eat them.
When one of the kids went vegan, we discussed faux meats and tried a couple of products, and most of us preferred not to eat them. No one actively hated them, but no one felt they were value for money either.
If I crave hotdogs, which I do once a year or something, I eat a hotdog, and discover how shitty it is, and then it takes another year until I forget and crave again. I can live with that, and if hotdogs are outlawed, it will cause me no distress. I'm much more sad about the loss of wild Baltic salmon and eels, and there are no substitutes for them.
I agree that the biggest issue is the lack of vegan/vegetarian options on the road. But I can't see it will become any better or worse with faux meat products. Now the cafeteria on the ferry I take regularly has shitty vegan burgers alongside their shitty meat burgers. Before, the vegetarian option was a shitty reheated pizza. I should get used to packing a lunch. I wish we all could have Japanese convenience stores.
posted by mumimor at 11:34 AM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Disgust is a very strong emotion, and disgust is on all sides of this discussion. Some find meat disgusting, others hate broccoli, and others again hate highly processed food. This is not a subject where people are easily converted: disgust is a primal feeling, beyond the rational.
About the nutrition element, it is safe to say that we humans are omnivores, not carnivores. We can get our proteins and vitamins B and D from an egg or two a week, or from a herring on buttered rye bread. Or a bit of yogurt or cheese. Or we can think a bit more over it and get it from a balanced vegan diet, perhaps with supplements.
For me, supplements don't work at all. I don't know how common that is, haven't bothered to look it up, but except for vitamin C, which I don't need as a supplement, all supplements lead to serious digestive issues. It was only a problem when I was pregnant, because normally I don't mind eating that weekly egg and herring. Or whatever works. And for most adults, supplements aren't needed.
In our family, we eat mostly vegetables because of the climate and because industrial farms are disgusting. We can't afford to eat organic free range meat seven days a week, and that is a feature, not a bug. There are tens of thousands of delicious recipes with no animal products and we haven't tried them all yet. But if we want meat or dairy or eggs, we splurge and eat them.
When one of the kids went vegan, we discussed faux meats and tried a couple of products, and most of us preferred not to eat them. No one actively hated them, but no one felt they were value for money either.
If I crave hotdogs, which I do once a year or something, I eat a hotdog, and discover how shitty it is, and then it takes another year until I forget and crave again. I can live with that, and if hotdogs are outlawed, it will cause me no distress. I'm much more sad about the loss of wild Baltic salmon and eels, and there are no substitutes for them.
I agree that the biggest issue is the lack of vegan/vegetarian options on the road. But I can't see it will become any better or worse with faux meat products. Now the cafeteria on the ferry I take regularly has shitty vegan burgers alongside their shitty meat burgers. Before, the vegetarian option was a shitty reheated pizza. I should get used to packing a lunch. I wish we all could have Japanese convenience stores.
posted by mumimor at 11:34 AM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
I still don't understand why you care so much about the existence of fake meat: That is what I'm trying to figure out , with you and with all the other times I have encountered this. It seems like people *care* that this stuff exists, and they think it shouldn't.
Why does fake meat cause people to react so strongly?
Once you've been on the Blue long enough you will find that ALL foods cause people to react this strongly. Food is core to our existence and woven deeply into all of our cultures and into our shared humanity, and there is no super chill way to talk about making huge, disruptive changes to that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2022 [13 favorites]
Why does fake meat cause people to react so strongly?
Once you've been on the Blue long enough you will find that ALL foods cause people to react this strongly. Food is core to our existence and woven deeply into all of our cultures and into our shared humanity, and there is no super chill way to talk about making huge, disruptive changes to that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2022 [13 favorites]
(I mean there IS, in theory, if you had like 2 mostly likeminded individuals coming from the same perspective on all axes but it won't happen given more than 2 individuals and an internet)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:41 AM on December 21, 2022
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:41 AM on December 21, 2022
If I crave hotdogs, which I do once a year or something, I eat a hotdog, and discover how shitty it is, and then it takes another year until I forget and crave again. I can live with that, and if hotdogs are outlawed, it will cause me no distress.
This is me and Shamrock Shakes from McDonald's. Every year or two I'm like "it's time to satisfy my Shamrock Shake craving" and I get a small one and that does me until the next time the craving strikes.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:04 PM on December 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is me and Shamrock Shakes from McDonald's. Every year or two I'm like "it's time to satisfy my Shamrock Shake craving" and I get a small one and that does me until the next time the craving strikes.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:04 PM on December 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is not a subject where people are easily converted: disgust is a primal feeling, beyond the rational.
self-cannibalism: "I imagine passionate lovers literally eating each other, growing sausages from their co-mingled tissues overnight in tabletop appliances similar to bread-making machines." :P
industrial farms are disgusting
insect farms!
posted by kliuless at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2022
self-cannibalism: "I imagine passionate lovers literally eating each other, growing sausages from their co-mingled tissues overnight in tabletop appliances similar to bread-making machines." :P
industrial farms are disgusting
insect farms!
posted by kliuless at 12:12 PM on December 21, 2022
kinks are weird per definition
posted by mumimor at 12:21 PM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 12:21 PM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I went vegan nearly four years ago. I'm lucky in that (a) I am a decent cook and (b) I like pretty much all vegetables. Yet still I found myself eating fake meat products, I think largely for the novelty value. For example, Greggs (UK bakery chain) brought out a vegan sausage roll to huge media fanfare, and I ate a ton of them before I realised I didn't actually like them very much. They're greasy and salty. I never used to eat sausage rolls before I was vegan, so why was I eating them now?
But even four years ago vegan options were few and far between in mainstream places, and they were always expensive. So to be able to grab a £1 Greggs sausage roll when I was out shopping was such a bonus, rather than having to spend £12 for some fairly poor vegan option in a cafe. I noticed, though, that I was getting heartburn, headaches and digestion issues whenever I ate too much fake meat. So now it's a rarity, and I'm picky about what I have.
Now there are many more options for vegans (in the UK anyway, where veganism has taken off in a big way), and most supermarkets do grab & go vegan options, so I don't have to rely on Greggs if I need a snack when I'm out.
At home I try to cook from fresh every day, but for 'convenience' food I have a stock of those vacuum-sealed pouches of Indian food that I get from a local Indian supermarket - like these (but obvs not the paneer ones). They are pretty good and don't contain preservatives or chemicals.
posted by essexjan at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
But even four years ago vegan options were few and far between in mainstream places, and they were always expensive. So to be able to grab a £1 Greggs sausage roll when I was out shopping was such a bonus, rather than having to spend £12 for some fairly poor vegan option in a cafe. I noticed, though, that I was getting heartburn, headaches and digestion issues whenever I ate too much fake meat. So now it's a rarity, and I'm picky about what I have.
Now there are many more options for vegans (in the UK anyway, where veganism has taken off in a big way), and most supermarkets do grab & go vegan options, so I don't have to rely on Greggs if I need a snack when I'm out.
At home I try to cook from fresh every day, but for 'convenience' food I have a stock of those vacuum-sealed pouches of Indian food that I get from a local Indian supermarket - like these (but obvs not the paneer ones). They are pretty good and don't contain preservatives or chemicals.
posted by essexjan at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2022 [8 favorites]
I agree that the biggest issue is the lack of vegan/vegetarian options on the road. But I can't see it will become any better or worse with faux meat products.
I actually like both Beyond Burgers and Impossible Burgers. I became vegetarian when I was living in NYC, and had options, but now that I'm living in rural central Iowa - I can get a grilled cheese sandwich at Dunkin, I can get a mostly lettuce sandwich at Jimmy Johns, I can get sesame tofu at Ocean City, or I can get an Impossible Burger at Burger King, and while none of those are great daily lunch options, the Impossible Burger is the only one that lets me get some protein without going over my 30-minute lunch break.
And yeah, BK had a vegetarian burger before, but I find the Impossible Burger much better. And Panda Express has tried out a Beyond Meat option, and KFC has tried out a Beyond Meat option, and Hardee's tried out a Beyond Meat option, and maybe in two or three years one of those trial runs is going to stick, and whenever I go to that godforsaken mall in West Des Moines it's nice to be able to order the Beyond Burger at Zombie Burger, although I think there's a falafel place too now...
To make a good meal out of vegetables is beyond the ambitions or capabilities of just about every fast food and fast casual chain. I wish that it weren't so. But many restaurants that would never exert the effort or imagination to have an actual vegetable entree on the menu are very happy to sub in a patty of fake meat for a patty of real meat. And if that lets me eat something besides gas station egg sandwiches and candy on a road trip from Marshalltown to Kansas City, I'm honestly pretty happy about that.
posted by Jeanne at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
I actually like both Beyond Burgers and Impossible Burgers. I became vegetarian when I was living in NYC, and had options, but now that I'm living in rural central Iowa - I can get a grilled cheese sandwich at Dunkin, I can get a mostly lettuce sandwich at Jimmy Johns, I can get sesame tofu at Ocean City, or I can get an Impossible Burger at Burger King, and while none of those are great daily lunch options, the Impossible Burger is the only one that lets me get some protein without going over my 30-minute lunch break.
And yeah, BK had a vegetarian burger before, but I find the Impossible Burger much better. And Panda Express has tried out a Beyond Meat option, and KFC has tried out a Beyond Meat option, and Hardee's tried out a Beyond Meat option, and maybe in two or three years one of those trial runs is going to stick, and whenever I go to that godforsaken mall in West Des Moines it's nice to be able to order the Beyond Burger at Zombie Burger, although I think there's a falafel place too now...
To make a good meal out of vegetables is beyond the ambitions or capabilities of just about every fast food and fast casual chain. I wish that it weren't so. But many restaurants that would never exert the effort or imagination to have an actual vegetable entree on the menu are very happy to sub in a patty of fake meat for a patty of real meat. And if that lets me eat something besides gas station egg sandwiches and candy on a road trip from Marshalltown to Kansas City, I'm honestly pretty happy about that.
posted by Jeanne at 12:30 PM on December 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
Well, I did mention Japanese convenience stores, and in Italy there are quite a few truck stops with great vegetarian options (though not always vegan). It's not entirely impossible. And in that sense, perhaps the drama is good for something: if those of us who aren't happy with faux meat or reheated pizza can get heard, maybe the big food chain executives will make some study trips to Japan and Italy.
(I've also had great truckstop food in Africa and the Middle East, but that wasn't from franchises).
posted by mumimor at 12:55 PM on December 21, 2022
(I've also had great truckstop food in Africa and the Middle East, but that wasn't from franchises).
posted by mumimor at 12:55 PM on December 21, 2022
You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat.
I’m mostly in agreement with this until somebody gets it right :) I’ll take fake meat that tastes good and feels like the real thing any day. Now it probably won’t be more healthy than the real deal but if it has lower carbon footprint that’s a win.
Processed food usually goes along with lower quality ingredients and added salt/sugar/fat, and that’s why I’m weary of it. But nature isn’t magical and sometimes processing is necessary. For example, cooking corn kernels with lime water is known to make the niacin more available and has a bunch of other dietary benefits.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:36 PM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m mostly in agreement with this until somebody gets it right :) I’ll take fake meat that tastes good and feels like the real thing any day. Now it probably won’t be more healthy than the real deal but if it has lower carbon footprint that’s a win.
Processed food usually goes along with lower quality ingredients and added salt/sugar/fat, and that’s why I’m weary of it. But nature isn’t magical and sometimes processing is necessary. For example, cooking corn kernels with lime water is known to make the niacin more available and has a bunch of other dietary benefits.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:36 PM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
BK had a vegetarian burger before
When I first heard about it, I was curious and went into BK and ordered the veggie burger. The worker sighed and said, "I'll have to get the manager." The manager showed up and, gesticulating, said, "The veggie patties are in the freezer…frozen!" His voice rose in volume as he added, "We'd have to thaw them out!"
"Never mind," I said. To me, that experience pretty much encapsulates being a vegetarian in the Midwest.
posted by jabah at 2:20 PM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
When I first heard about it, I was curious and went into BK and ordered the veggie burger. The worker sighed and said, "I'll have to get the manager." The manager showed up and, gesticulating, said, "The veggie patties are in the freezer…frozen!" His voice rose in volume as he added, "We'd have to thaw them out!"
"Never mind," I said. To me, that experience pretty much encapsulates being a vegetarian in the Midwest.
posted by jabah at 2:20 PM on December 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
See, this is what I mean by "I'm indifferent" to whether you want to eat meat or not. When you start making it a point of moral superiority? That's when I stop taking you seriously.
posted by outgrown_hobnail
You are soooo not indifferent. Strident, I'd say.
But fake meats are ghastly abominations, both from a taste/texture perspective and from that of... I don't know, call it consistency, for lack of a better word. You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat. Just eat vegetables or whatever: that's fine. I<>
Or like...people can do what they want cause they feel differently about things, including food? Why cran at them about something they like and you don't? I truly will never understand why the (potato?) chip on the shoulder.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:01 PM on December 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail
You are soooo not indifferent. Strident, I'd say.
But fake meats are ghastly abominations, both from a taste/texture perspective and from that of... I don't know, call it consistency, for lack of a better word. You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat. Just eat vegetables or whatever: that's fine. I<>
Or like...people can do what they want cause they feel differently about things, including food? Why cran at them about something they like and you don't? I truly will never understand why the (potato?) chip on the shoulder.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:01 PM on December 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat.
That presumes that a person actually WANTS to give up meat, as a positive choice, though, and I think increasingly we're getting to a point where that's not going to be the majority of meat-giver-uppers. I'll never WANT to give up meat, I fucking love it. But at a certain point in my lifetime I'm not really going to have a choice about it.
I think part of the reason the fake meat conversation in particular gets so screwy is that in this arena, you have a big intersection of people who are doing the same thing but for very different motivations. You've got folks who gave up meat 30 years ago for ethical reasons, folks who gave up meat last month because their doctor said "no more, my dude," folks who just think meat is gross and never even had to give it up because they hated it, folks who are considering giving it up because of the carbon footprint, etc.
Some of these people will be well-served by fake meat and others won't, but for whatever reason that level of nuance never makes it to the internet conversations about it. I don't need my fake meat to be healthier than my real meat, because real meat isn't a "health food" for me anyway. Someone who's giving up meat for health reasons might need that. There...can be both?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:01 PM on December 21, 2022 [22 favorites]
That presumes that a person actually WANTS to give up meat, as a positive choice, though, and I think increasingly we're getting to a point where that's not going to be the majority of meat-giver-uppers. I'll never WANT to give up meat, I fucking love it. But at a certain point in my lifetime I'm not really going to have a choice about it.
I think part of the reason the fake meat conversation in particular gets so screwy is that in this arena, you have a big intersection of people who are doing the same thing but for very different motivations. You've got folks who gave up meat 30 years ago for ethical reasons, folks who gave up meat last month because their doctor said "no more, my dude," folks who just think meat is gross and never even had to give it up because they hated it, folks who are considering giving it up because of the carbon footprint, etc.
Some of these people will be well-served by fake meat and others won't, but for whatever reason that level of nuance never makes it to the internet conversations about it. I don't need my fake meat to be healthier than my real meat, because real meat isn't a "health food" for me anyway. Someone who's giving up meat for health reasons might need that. There...can be both?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 3:01 PM on December 21, 2022 [22 favorites]
The best fake meat though is the stuff from vegetarian Chinese restaurants! And it has a long history in Buddhist cuisine — fake meats are nothing new under the sun.
I'm a fan of such dishes but keep in mind seitan, what most of those analogs are made from, is wheat gluten so...not an option for everyone.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:15 PM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a fan of such dishes but keep in mind seitan, what most of those analogs are made from, is wheat gluten so...not an option for everyone.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 3:15 PM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am a vegetarian, and I've never had a good bean patty or veggie patty at a non-veg restaurant, so I have been happy with Beyond Burgers/Impossible burgers as occasional foods. Really what I eat too much of is Trader Joe's Soy Chorizo, I have that maybe twice a month.
Maybe because meat eaters tend to eat meat with every meal, they imagine we vegetarians are eating fake meat with every meal?
posted by muddgirl at 3:23 PM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Maybe because meat eaters tend to eat meat with every meal, they imagine we vegetarians are eating fake meat with every meal?
posted by muddgirl at 3:23 PM on December 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Let’s at least agree that portobello burgers are nasty. I tried to go veggie for a while and ate a lot of these. I still shudder thinking of biting into that weird rubbery puck. Bleah.
I eat meat, but probably 90% of my dinners and breakfasts are veggie or vegan. I’ve given up being absolutist about it, because I think if my meat consumption was the norm in the US , we’d be doing ok and could avoid factory farming. I don’t want to feel like a fallen angel if I eat bacon once in a while or eat something that turns out to have animal ingredients. For me personally that’s too much like the Puritan virginity fetish, where you’re pure until you aren’t. But …. I will say that there’s so much good non-meat food out there these days that meat and 2 veg doesn’t need to be the default.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:25 PM on December 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
I eat meat, but probably 90% of my dinners and breakfasts are veggie or vegan. I’ve given up being absolutist about it, because I think if my meat consumption was the norm in the US , we’d be doing ok and could avoid factory farming. I don’t want to feel like a fallen angel if I eat bacon once in a while or eat something that turns out to have animal ingredients. For me personally that’s too much like the Puritan virginity fetish, where you’re pure until you aren’t. But …. I will say that there’s so much good non-meat food out there these days that meat and 2 veg doesn’t need to be the default.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:25 PM on December 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
You want to give up meat, do that: don't spend time, effort and money creating fake meat.
That's one approach. But not only is that not the only approach for people giving up meat, that's not the full market for these foods, either. I am a person who eats meat, but I find the newest fake-meat burgers to be just as good as a basic meat-patty burger (though not as good as a gourmet burger made from fresh-ground meat, but how often do you get one of those?). I'm perfectly happy to order this when it's on the menu, since it tastes just as good and has less moral and ecological impacts.
We also frequently use the ground fake-meat for things like spaghetti sauce -- it's not exactly the same but it's close enough and tastes satisfying.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:36 PM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's one approach. But not only is that not the only approach for people giving up meat, that's not the full market for these foods, either. I am a person who eats meat, but I find the newest fake-meat burgers to be just as good as a basic meat-patty burger (though not as good as a gourmet burger made from fresh-ground meat, but how often do you get one of those?). I'm perfectly happy to order this when it's on the menu, since it tastes just as good and has less moral and ecological impacts.
We also frequently use the ground fake-meat for things like spaghetti sauce -- it's not exactly the same but it's close enough and tastes satisfying.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:36 PM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
It occurred to me just the other day that I might be deficient in zinc as a result of my (mostly) plant-based diet; just happened to stumble upon symptoms of zinc deficiency and had a lightbulb moment.
So I bought some tinned oysters and made a basic soup with radish. Eating them was a bit weird to say the least, but more than happy to adjust to eating them once or twice a week and seeing if I feel better from it. Was mostly thrilled not to find out about some previously unknown shellfish allergy in the moment.
Of course, when I thought of vitamin deficiencies, iron also came to mind, so back to eating oatmeal with blackstrap molasses for breakfast.
In general, though I like the faux meat offerings, I never consider them as a "healthy option" in any way, but rather an indulgence. I'd appreciate more care taken in their development to accommodate common deficiencies in plant-based diets.
Fortunately, it's not particularly ethically challenging to consider eating oysters, I feel like, so it's a good compromise for now.
posted by otsebyatina at 4:01 PM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
So I bought some tinned oysters and made a basic soup with radish. Eating them was a bit weird to say the least, but more than happy to adjust to eating them once or twice a week and seeing if I feel better from it. Was mostly thrilled not to find out about some previously unknown shellfish allergy in the moment.
Of course, when I thought of vitamin deficiencies, iron also came to mind, so back to eating oatmeal with blackstrap molasses for breakfast.
In general, though I like the faux meat offerings, I never consider them as a "healthy option" in any way, but rather an indulgence. I'd appreciate more care taken in their development to accommodate common deficiencies in plant-based diets.
Fortunately, it's not particularly ethically challenging to consider eating oysters, I feel like, so it's a good compromise for now.
posted by otsebyatina at 4:01 PM on December 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
> My doctor said this is actually fairly common, and people just get used to feeling that way. Even to the point of taking SSRIs and Adderall etc, not realizing their low mood and low energy isn't caused by depression or ADHD or whatever.
Got so excited to talk about oysters I overlooked this comment, but it's very reassuring to hear that.
It's been ~15 years since I've eaten meat (except the occasional sardine or anchovy). Combine that with bad food habits while cooped up all pandemic that got me stuck in a feedback loop of malnutrition -> too bleh to put in the effort to diversify, amplified by the awesome/unfortunate fact that pasta = plant-based.
I was fully prepared to seek treatment for ADHD if deemed necessary (and yet might), but with several weeks between now and my next annual physical, I think I have time in which to tell whether dietary changes will make a marked difference.
As an aside, it was somewhat amusing that a lot of articles about zinc deficiency I came across were on carnivore blogs; the sort of place where a guy would be mourning that he was born in the wrong generation because there are no longer woolly mammoths to tackle and gnaw at raw.
posted by otsebyatina at 4:25 PM on December 21, 2022
Got so excited to talk about oysters I overlooked this comment, but it's very reassuring to hear that.
It's been ~15 years since I've eaten meat (except the occasional sardine or anchovy). Combine that with bad food habits while cooped up all pandemic that got me stuck in a feedback loop of malnutrition -> too bleh to put in the effort to diversify, amplified by the awesome/unfortunate fact that pasta = plant-based.
I was fully prepared to seek treatment for ADHD if deemed necessary (and yet might), but with several weeks between now and my next annual physical, I think I have time in which to tell whether dietary changes will make a marked difference.
As an aside, it was somewhat amusing that a lot of articles about zinc deficiency I came across were on carnivore blogs; the sort of place where a guy would be mourning that he was born in the wrong generation because there are no longer woolly mammoths to tackle and gnaw at raw.
posted by otsebyatina at 4:25 PM on December 21, 2022
However, did you know that the best way to get all the nutrients out of meat is to go down to the slaughterhouse and do the dirty work youself, as opposed to paying for it through the supermarket meat aisle?
I usually just put a straw right in the steer.
posted by atoxyl at 6:55 PM on December 21, 2022
I usually just put a straw right in the steer.
posted by atoxyl at 6:55 PM on December 21, 2022
Rhymedirective, the idea that Americans are eating too little red meat is… certainly a unique perspective for a doctor to hold.
posted by Selena777 at 9:09 PM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:09 PM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
woolly mammoths
Hehehe--I was just thinking, the one viewpoint these threads always miss out on, is the "vegetables secrete their own insecticide so they are deadly poisonous; you should only eat organ meat and the testicles of whatever mammal you most wish to emulate" guy.
posted by mittens at 4:32 AM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Hehehe--I was just thinking, the one viewpoint these threads always miss out on, is the "vegetables secrete their own insecticide so they are deadly poisonous; you should only eat organ meat and the testicles of whatever mammal you most wish to emulate" guy.
posted by mittens at 4:32 AM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
kaibutsu: Eat more tempeh!
A couple of years ago I tried out David Zilber's quinoa tempeh burger method. It takes a couple of days to make, but I was home during the pandemic anyways, so perfect cooking project... His suggestion of adding a bit of acid to tone down the tempeh funk is a winner. The burger was surprisingly delicious.
Inside the Creation of Noma’s New Vegan Quinoa Tempeh Burger
posted by Surely This at 7:51 AM on December 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
A couple of years ago I tried out David Zilber's quinoa tempeh burger method. It takes a couple of days to make, but I was home during the pandemic anyways, so perfect cooking project... His suggestion of adding a bit of acid to tone down the tempeh funk is a winner. The burger was surprisingly delicious.
Inside the Creation of Noma’s New Vegan Quinoa Tempeh Burger
posted by Surely This at 7:51 AM on December 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not the one who posted the article, but here is a youtube video by someone who attempted to replicate it. Might be a good starting point at least if you're feeling up to experimentation.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:33 AM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by otsebyatina at 8:33 AM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
the "vegetables secrete their own insecticide so they are deadly poisonous; you should only eat organ meat and the testicles of whatever mammal you most wish to emulate" guy.
I am personally still scarred by learning about the "high meat" people on Reddit. Yeesh.
I do have to say, from experience with multiple anemic friends as well as friends in a wide variety of diets that turned out to be deficient in one thing or another, I fully believe that things like that can be more common than we think and that not all people are equally good at extracting necessary nutrients from all foods. What this means is ideal diets for Person X might not be the same as ideal diets for Person Y, and that's okay. I just think that people presenting with something like fatigue or concentration issues should routinely be screened for metabolic deficiencies and adjust based on that if necessary.
Food science is very much in its infancy. Additionally, in medicine there's this weird idea that there's one ideal way to do things, or some uniform "healthy" body that all "unhealthy" bodies deviate from. But that's not really what studying individual variation in nonhuman species tells us: there are a ton of good enough ways to make a person, all of which are subtly different at even the most basic levels. Especially in the context of an opportunistic omnivorous generalist like humans, it does not surprise me to consider that there might be massive variation in how well we can extract nutrients from various foods, and that we are used to sufficiently varied diets that we can sometimes fail to notice that such variation exists.
posted by sciatrix at 8:47 AM on December 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I am personally still scarred by learning about the "high meat" people on Reddit. Yeesh.
I do have to say, from experience with multiple anemic friends as well as friends in a wide variety of diets that turned out to be deficient in one thing or another, I fully believe that things like that can be more common than we think and that not all people are equally good at extracting necessary nutrients from all foods. What this means is ideal diets for Person X might not be the same as ideal diets for Person Y, and that's okay. I just think that people presenting with something like fatigue or concentration issues should routinely be screened for metabolic deficiencies and adjust based on that if necessary.
Food science is very much in its infancy. Additionally, in medicine there's this weird idea that there's one ideal way to do things, or some uniform "healthy" body that all "unhealthy" bodies deviate from. But that's not really what studying individual variation in nonhuman species tells us: there are a ton of good enough ways to make a person, all of which are subtly different at even the most basic levels. Especially in the context of an opportunistic omnivorous generalist like humans, it does not surprise me to consider that there might be massive variation in how well we can extract nutrients from various foods, and that we are used to sufficiently varied diets that we can sometimes fail to notice that such variation exists.
posted by sciatrix at 8:47 AM on December 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
What sciatrix said. Barring genetically engineering people from birth to optimize nutrient consumption from any edible substance in future, I like to think that someday, science will wave its tricorder over me and go "welp, *you* need to eat X, Y, Z to optimize your nutrition. You may not like that it is different from Person over there, but that's what ya gotta do."
Or perhaps... food that knows how to optimize itself for you. : )
posted by bitterkitten at 9:14 AM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or perhaps... food that knows how to optimize itself for you. : )
posted by bitterkitten at 9:14 AM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Here's a very simple piece of evidence of not everyone getting the same nutrition from the same food. Lactose intolerance. If you're got lactose intolerance, you obviously aren't getting the calories from the lactose, and digestive upset may mean you're missing nutrients from other food, too.
Of course, there are also subtle variations, too, and some of them are in the rest of the body, not necessarily the digestive tract.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:20 AM on December 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Of course, there are also subtle variations, too, and some of them are in the rest of the body, not necessarily the digestive tract.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:20 AM on December 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Adam Ragusea had an interesting episode on his podcast where he pointed out that lactose intolerance is the norm, when one looks at the entire world population. So we shouldn't describe it as an illness.
He didn't go into it, but it made me relax a bit to think that there is no reason 11 billion of us should eat cow-products.
I like a lot of dairy foods, but I hate drinking fresh milk. And after listening to the podcast, I realized that it was both racist and generally evil when we were forced to drink milk at school as children. I mean, they probably had good intentions, but they were so wrong, and for many kids it must have been literally painful.
posted by mumimor at 10:48 AM on December 22, 2022
He didn't go into it, but it made me relax a bit to think that there is no reason 11 billion of us should eat cow-products.
I like a lot of dairy foods, but I hate drinking fresh milk. And after listening to the podcast, I realized that it was both racist and generally evil when we were forced to drink milk at school as children. I mean, they probably had good intentions, but they were so wrong, and for many kids it must have been literally painful.
posted by mumimor at 10:48 AM on December 22, 2022
We didn't evolve as animals to eat this stuff and that makes a huge difference in the way we use it as fuel.
We also didn't evolve to eat the masses of meat that many do or drink wine or drive cars or do any number of things we do for taste, convenience or a range of other things.
I too don't understand why fake meat gets people going as if it were made of babies and causing climate change. It's handy at times to have something you can quickly cook up or order in a regular restaurant, but apparently as we didn't have it in 10,000 BCE vegans and vegetarians should never swallow a morsel...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 11:01 AM on December 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
We also didn't evolve to eat the masses of meat that many do or drink wine or drive cars or do any number of things we do for taste, convenience or a range of other things.
I too don't understand why fake meat gets people going as if it were made of babies and causing climate change. It's handy at times to have something you can quickly cook up or order in a regular restaurant, but apparently as we didn't have it in 10,000 BCE vegans and vegetarians should never swallow a morsel...
posted by lesbiassparrow at 11:01 AM on December 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
As much as people appeal to our evolutionary history in regards to what we're physically capable of tolerating well, I think they're often shy to admit how much they evaluate their habits in terms of the culture that's evolved alongside them. It would be nice to convince these people that they have the power (and responsibility) to play a role in that development.
posted by otsebyatina at 11:25 AM on December 22, 2022
posted by otsebyatina at 11:25 AM on December 22, 2022
I had recalled seeing a video where they cut into an Impossible Burger and red juice ran out, looking just like blood. No thanks!
The "blood" is just beet juice.
I think it's more than a little silly that they made their fake burgers bleed, but I'm not upset about consuming beet juice.
posted by nosewings at 1:15 PM on December 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
The "blood" is just beet juice.
I think it's more than a little silly that they made their fake burgers bleed, but I'm not upset about consuming beet juice.
posted by nosewings at 1:15 PM on December 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyway, count me as someone who has been well-served by fake meat since going vegetarian. My partner and I make some truly excellent burgers now, too---better than anything we made when we were carnists. Vegan "mayo", gouda "cheese", mashed avocados, sliced habaneros, minced garlic, and fancy mustard.
Also, impossible burgers have dramatically expanded the range of restaurants that we can go to with friends and family.
Frankly, I'm not sure why so many places have them---the population of vegetarians around here can't be large enough for it to make much of a difference. I suspect the restaurants are making money off of people who somehow think these fake meats are healthier than actual meat, which I don't think is very true. The most important nutritional difference in their favor is that they have much less cholesterol, but last I heard it was unclear whether dietary cholesterol actually matters. And maybe impossible burgers don't raise your colorectal cancer risk like processed red meats do, though I don't think anyone has done that study.
posted by nosewings at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2022
Also, impossible burgers have dramatically expanded the range of restaurants that we can go to with friends and family.
Frankly, I'm not sure why so many places have them---the population of vegetarians around here can't be large enough for it to make much of a difference. I suspect the restaurants are making money off of people who somehow think these fake meats are healthier than actual meat, which I don't think is very true. The most important nutritional difference in their favor is that they have much less cholesterol, but last I heard it was unclear whether dietary cholesterol actually matters. And maybe impossible burgers don't raise your colorectal cancer risk like processed red meats do, though I don't think anyone has done that study.
posted by nosewings at 1:22 PM on December 22, 2022
latkes, I don't have a recipe for the quinoa burgers, but you basically just steam the quinoa and inoculate it with the tempeh spores the same way you would with any grain or legume. I did add a touch of lactic acid per Zilber's recommendation, and it made the mildest, nuttiest-tasting tempeh. I do that now whenever I make tempeh.
I used perforated ring molds to form the patties until they were solid enough to hold up on their own. Here's what they look like after removing the molds.
posted by Surely This at 1:44 PM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
I used perforated ring molds to form the patties until they were solid enough to hold up on their own. Here's what they look like after removing the molds.
posted by Surely This at 1:44 PM on December 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
if it soothes your anxieties, but are you actually anæmic?
Yes. Yes I am. Proven by many, many lab tests and specialist visits. Is that good enough for you or do you want to see my medical chart? FFS.
Maybe just vary your diet
I DO. I used to cook professionally and I have a culinary degree. I cannot uptake plant heme and I am so anemic that I have to endure getting poked and IV'd and infused with iron at least every two years just to feel almost human. But please, do go on about how I'm an idiot and my doctors are quacks and I clearly don't know anything about nutrition or how to feed myself a varied diet.
I have no more fucks to give.
posted by cooker girl at 2:33 PM on December 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yes. Yes I am. Proven by many, many lab tests and specialist visits. Is that good enough for you or do you want to see my medical chart? FFS.
Maybe just vary your diet
I DO. I used to cook professionally and I have a culinary degree. I cannot uptake plant heme and I am so anemic that I have to endure getting poked and IV'd and infused with iron at least every two years just to feel almost human. But please, do go on about how I'm an idiot and my doctors are quacks and I clearly don't know anything about nutrition or how to feed myself a varied diet.
I have no more fucks to give.
posted by cooker girl at 2:33 PM on December 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
cooker girl, I think you misunderstood me. My point was if you're actually anæmic, then you actually have stuff to take care of! But Steak Bros act like everyone eating a vegetarian diet is somehow dying of a deficiency of iron or "protein", and it's tiresome refuting this day in and day out.
That's why I asked. Are you worried about iron because you're anæmic, or is it just a cultural trend sold by the cattlemen's association? You're actually anæmic, so that's a solid answer!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 8:57 AM on December 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's why I asked. Are you worried about iron because you're anæmic, or is it just a cultural trend sold by the cattlemen's association? You're actually anæmic, so that's a solid answer!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 8:57 AM on December 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Late to the party (because ... Christmas) but here is a link to a podcast with Briana Pobiner of the Smithsonian on Did Meat Make Us Human?
posted by gudrun at 11:20 AM on December 27, 2022
posted by gudrun at 11:20 AM on December 27, 2022
Association between meatless diet and depressive episodes: "We found a positive association between the prevalence of depressive episodes and a meatless diet. Meat non-consumers experienced approximately twice the frequency of depressive episodes of meat consumers."
posted by mittens at 11:32 AM on December 28, 2022
posted by mittens at 11:32 AM on December 28, 2022
"Conclusions: ... Nutrient deficiencies do not explain this association..."
I should probably stop here, but why not spitball a bit:
Here, I have a causal link: people inclined to care about the fate of other creatures more likely to be 1) vegetarian 2) depressed. Weird.
posted by tigrrrlily at 6:50 PM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
I should probably stop here, but why not spitball a bit:
Here, I have a causal link: people inclined to care about the fate of other creatures more likely to be 1) vegetarian 2) depressed. Weird.
posted by tigrrrlily at 6:50 PM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
Yeah that's a pretty interesting correlation and looks like some other research came to same conclusion. I feel like my vegetarianism and my depression are linked: I carry around some pretty deep feelings of despair about the condition of the world. This is what motivates and animates my life choices including my choice to be vegetarian.
posted by latkes at 9:10 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 9:10 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
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I'm not vegetarian anymore but even when I was I stopped eating that stuff after a while.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:40 AM on December 21, 2022 [3 favorites]