I told him, “You’re not allowed to believe in Santa, we’re Jews.”
January 8, 2023 8:01 PM Subscribe
My impression of Christmas—now that I actually celebrate it with my non-Jewish partner—is that the entire affective structure of the holiday is one of high expectations that are inevitably disappointed. It’s a day that promises to grant you access to the ideal version of your family—which of course is always out of reach. When I was on the outside of Christmas, I got to just enjoy the manic optimism that radiated off of other people in the lead-up. I didn’t have anything at stake.
LOL, I have known one of the people in this conversation since childhood and just skimmed the whole piece looking to see if that person mentioned any of my family Christmas stuff. Nope! Whew! Haha.
Great and thought-provoking conversation, thanks for sharing it, very glad my dad's not in it
posted by potrzebie at 9:22 PM on January 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Great and thought-provoking conversation, thanks for sharing it, very glad my dad's not in it
posted by potrzebie at 9:22 PM on January 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
That's a fun and interesting discussion. Pieces of it made me think about my childhood (and my resulting adulthood); my mom is a laid-back hippie Catholic, my dad is a laid-back reform Jew, and our winter holidays were always a mix of Christmas and Hanukkah but there's no question that mom's impulse to celebrate Christmas and to ground it somewhat in Christian belief and tradition was the dominant theme every year. Plus she came from a large family, mostly local, who celebrated family get-togethers at Thanksgiving and Christmas whereas Dad's family is basically all out of state by a significant margin, so there really wasn't any other casual reinforcement of Jewish traditions.
I remember it being a little revelatory for me that I was the only Jewish kid in in my grade school class, and sort or revelatory for my classmates and teachers that there was a Jew in class, in a way I had never anticipated until I was teaching everybody how to play dreidel (which is just the shittiest game for the record, just an absolute tedious never-ending clunker, worse than Monopoly). But then I also remember only understanding years later that Catholicism wasn't the same as broader Christianity and many of the things I took as just universal small-c christian practice and ritual were regarded as deeply weird and suspect by non-Catholics. My childhood was a treasure trove that way.
And I feel like it says something about the endemic nature of American Christianity and the specific complicated secular-but-religious nature of Christmas in at least some families that my otherwise chill hippie laid-back Catholic mom still got into a brinksmanship sort of "well maybe we just shouldn't CELEBRATE Christmas [and you therefore won't get presents] if you don't believe!" "yeah uh okay, maybe we shouldn't?" thing with me when I, the quiet non-confrontational Good Kid finally broached to her that I wasn't really on board with the whole implicit-to-my-childhood Christian thing and didn't want to keep going to church every week. It was such a weird curtain-pull moment, collapsing the holiday patina and the religious dogma into this terrible nucleus of cultural mess at the core of some of our family traditions and her relationship with her own faith, and how unprepared she was to confront any real difference of opinion there with her kid even as she was otherwise part of a genuinely loving inter-religious marriage.
I took out of the weird soup of my childhood an increasingly dedicated (but still basically non-confrontational, I am who I am) atheism coupled with a greater appreciation for my dad and his family's Jewish culture and history. The strongest argument my dad ever made for his religious and cultural background was not arguing the point and never making it feel like an obligation; I grew up appreciating my Jewish heritage without being made to feel like I had to conform to any expectations or engage in any proof of faith, and I'm not sure the result is a particularly deep grounding in my Jewishness but it's not a bitter one and did nothing to precipitate a rejection of it. I just felt...quietly welcomed. That has grown on me over the years.
I always feel a little outside on deeply Jewish conversations because I know I operate culturally at the margins and with a weird, confusing personal context based on the muddy religious/cultural admixture of my childhood and my circumstantial isolation from most of my dad's already pretty religiously relaxed family. If I were to throw in with the folks in the linked conversation I don't think I'd be either anti-Christmas or anti-anti-Christmas, and I feel slightly embarrassed about that conspicuously neutral position but also feel okay about it: I think I'm allowed to just roll casually with the unavoidable American spectacle and momentum of Christmas while basically not actually giving a shit about it or feeling obliged to play along. Light some lights, give each other presents, don't invite the racist uncle over, and don't give anybody any shit.
posted by cortex at 9:26 PM on January 8, 2023 [37 favorites]
I remember it being a little revelatory for me that I was the only Jewish kid in in my grade school class, and sort or revelatory for my classmates and teachers that there was a Jew in class, in a way I had never anticipated until I was teaching everybody how to play dreidel (which is just the shittiest game for the record, just an absolute tedious never-ending clunker, worse than Monopoly). But then I also remember only understanding years later that Catholicism wasn't the same as broader Christianity and many of the things I took as just universal small-c christian practice and ritual were regarded as deeply weird and suspect by non-Catholics. My childhood was a treasure trove that way.
And I feel like it says something about the endemic nature of American Christianity and the specific complicated secular-but-religious nature of Christmas in at least some families that my otherwise chill hippie laid-back Catholic mom still got into a brinksmanship sort of "well maybe we just shouldn't CELEBRATE Christmas [and you therefore won't get presents] if you don't believe!" "yeah uh okay, maybe we shouldn't?" thing with me when I, the quiet non-confrontational Good Kid finally broached to her that I wasn't really on board with the whole implicit-to-my-childhood Christian thing and didn't want to keep going to church every week. It was such a weird curtain-pull moment, collapsing the holiday patina and the religious dogma into this terrible nucleus of cultural mess at the core of some of our family traditions and her relationship with her own faith, and how unprepared she was to confront any real difference of opinion there with her kid even as she was otherwise part of a genuinely loving inter-religious marriage.
I took out of the weird soup of my childhood an increasingly dedicated (but still basically non-confrontational, I am who I am) atheism coupled with a greater appreciation for my dad and his family's Jewish culture and history. The strongest argument my dad ever made for his religious and cultural background was not arguing the point and never making it feel like an obligation; I grew up appreciating my Jewish heritage without being made to feel like I had to conform to any expectations or engage in any proof of faith, and I'm not sure the result is a particularly deep grounding in my Jewishness but it's not a bitter one and did nothing to precipitate a rejection of it. I just felt...quietly welcomed. That has grown on me over the years.
I always feel a little outside on deeply Jewish conversations because I know I operate culturally at the margins and with a weird, confusing personal context based on the muddy religious/cultural admixture of my childhood and my circumstantial isolation from most of my dad's already pretty religiously relaxed family. If I were to throw in with the folks in the linked conversation I don't think I'd be either anti-Christmas or anti-anti-Christmas, and I feel slightly embarrassed about that conspicuously neutral position but also feel okay about it: I think I'm allowed to just roll casually with the unavoidable American spectacle and momentum of Christmas while basically not actually giving a shit about it or feeling obliged to play along. Light some lights, give each other presents, don't invite the racist uncle over, and don't give anybody any shit.
posted by cortex at 9:26 PM on January 8, 2023 [37 favorites]
Yes, an interesting discussion. Lots of mention of 'Jewish Christmas', which sounds like a good way to spend the day.
It mentions that the holiday is more of a generic civic holiday in the UK, and this is true of several other countries too. In Hong Kong, it is almost like practice for Chinese New Years in terms of huge displays and mall sales. In Japan it is more of a romantic day. With both, though, it is lots of Christmas trees and Santa.
posted by eye of newt at 12:07 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
It mentions that the holiday is more of a generic civic holiday in the UK, and this is true of several other countries too. In Hong Kong, it is almost like practice for Chinese New Years in terms of huge displays and mall sales. In Japan it is more of a romantic day. With both, though, it is lots of Christmas trees and Santa.
posted by eye of newt at 12:07 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was interested to read the perspective on the UK, because that’s how it seems to me — my own Christmas is certainly completely secular — but than I’m from a vaguely culturally Christian background, so I’m never sure if I’m just being oblivious to the tensions for people from religious minorities.
Obviously there’s a much higher proportion of Christians in the UK than in Japan, and some religious stuff is certainly there for those who want it, but it’s very easy to ignore (although again, I’m from the nominally Christian majority, and these religious traditions are sort of my traditions even if I don’t want them).
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:52 AM on January 9, 2023
Obviously there’s a much higher proportion of Christians in the UK than in Japan, and some religious stuff is certainly there for those who want it, but it’s very easy to ignore (although again, I’m from the nominally Christian majority, and these religious traditions are sort of my traditions even if I don’t want them).
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 12:52 AM on January 9, 2023
In New Zealand where I live, slightly over 50% reported "no religion" at the 2018 census, and Christmas is largely presents, overeating, summer holidays (cause geography) and huge sales and consumerism the next day. There is enough residual Christianity to it to make a Jewish person a little uncomfortable though. "Not our yontiff", my mother used to say. Plus the ham at the in-laws was a bit much.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:05 AM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:05 AM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have a complicated relationship to Christmas as I was abused during family trips to my grandparents’. My grandfather was in fact of Jewish descent but his family had buried that heritage and original last name on immigrating to the US. His father had married a Christian Scientist, and my grandfather had experienced religious abuse under that banner. It was all very weird. After I married a Catholic who gradually became non-practicing, as a couple we mostly went to other people’s houses, did Meals on Wheels, or else I mostly zoned out on the holiday. (We’re in Canada.)
For my eldest son’s first Christmas that he was old enough to remember, we were really torn on whether to introduce Santa. I’m not fond of a lot of that. So one day, my son comes home from Montessori 100% out of his mind with joy because he’s been informed that Santa will come to our house and bring presents. We didn’t own a tree or ornaments or anything.
So who told him this?
His hijab-wearing pretty strict Muslim teacher.
Anyways, we did introduce our downplayed version of Santa, and then my son cried for an hour because he thought Santa would come to our house to visit, like his favourite relatives.
We still kinda do Christmas. I’m not sorry about it but it feels a bit like we got bulldozed into it.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:42 AM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
For my eldest son’s first Christmas that he was old enough to remember, we were really torn on whether to introduce Santa. I’m not fond of a lot of that. So one day, my son comes home from Montessori 100% out of his mind with joy because he’s been informed that Santa will come to our house and bring presents. We didn’t own a tree or ornaments or anything.
So who told him this?
His hijab-wearing pretty strict Muslim teacher.
Anyways, we did introduce our downplayed version of Santa, and then my son cried for an hour because he thought Santa would come to our house to visit, like his favourite relatives.
We still kinda do Christmas. I’m not sorry about it but it feels a bit like we got bulldozed into it.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:42 AM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
and Christmas is largely presents, overeating, summer holidays (cause geography)
I've always wondered - the winter holidays in the northern hemisphere are often loved for the coziness factor and feel partly like a celebration of sitting in a warm home consuming hot things while it's cold out. Are there any local southern hemisphere winter coze-fest-type celebrations?
posted by trig at 4:21 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've always wondered - the winter holidays in the northern hemisphere are often loved for the coziness factor and feel partly like a celebration of sitting in a warm home consuming hot things while it's cold out. Are there any local southern hemisphere winter coze-fest-type celebrations?
posted by trig at 4:21 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I grew up in a family that was very lightly culturally Christian (like, we went to a very loosey-goosey branch of the Unitarian church occasionally for a year or so when I was young), but was mostly hippy-ish, anti-consumer, slightly pagan, etc. So Christmas was a total non-event in our house, at best a sideshow to the solstice. For a present I would usually get a book, which in hindsight was great but at the time made me resentful and jealous of my friends who would get stacks and stacks of presents.
In our house, Santa was described just like Jesus was described: as a figure maybe loosely based on a real historical person, but now more of a symbol with all kinds of new meaning added. I can remember being about 8 years old and visiting a friend, and somehow casually mentioning that Santa wasn't real (not in a revelatory, "let me tell you!" way, just somehow it came up in a conversation) and he burst into tears, his parents were really mad, and I was sent home. Until that moment, I genuinely had no idea that many parents were telling their kids Santa was real.
So I still feel very on the outside of how Christmas is practiced here, but outside in a very different way than the people in the linked article are describing. (Like, I am stuck on the outside of it and happy that way, but without a good excuse, maybe.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In our house, Santa was described just like Jesus was described: as a figure maybe loosely based on a real historical person, but now more of a symbol with all kinds of new meaning added. I can remember being about 8 years old and visiting a friend, and somehow casually mentioning that Santa wasn't real (not in a revelatory, "let me tell you!" way, just somehow it came up in a conversation) and he burst into tears, his parents were really mad, and I was sent home. Until that moment, I genuinely had no idea that many parents were telling their kids Santa was real.
So I still feel very on the outside of how Christmas is practiced here, but outside in a very different way than the people in the linked article are describing. (Like, I am stuck on the outside of it and happy that way, but without a good excuse, maybe.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Today I learned that some Jewish households don't participate in Halloween. Not anything I have ever witnessed- in our area they tend to be great spots to hit up. Any lack of participation is pretty much a generational or cult thing at this point on our block. But reading this conversation makes me realize I might be a little too into Halloween.
Xmas on the other hand is steadily getting beaten down. When we choose to skip the whole Santa thing we actually leaned pretty heavy on our Jewish and Hindu friends. I worried about 'ruining' other kids 'experience*' so we emphasized how Santa was super important to other households. Like angels. So when Elf on a Shelf came along we just slotted that alongside Santa.
This year we didn't put up any xmas lights - it was just too much. I though I would have more feelings about it, but I just don't. I used to feel that a bunch of lights were just generally festive. A minimum effort sort of thing, and yes, a little cheugy.
*just the pure disneyfication of reality
posted by zenon at 6:51 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Xmas on the other hand is steadily getting beaten down. When we choose to skip the whole Santa thing we actually leaned pretty heavy on our Jewish and Hindu friends. I worried about 'ruining' other kids 'experience*' so we emphasized how Santa was super important to other households. Like angels. So when Elf on a Shelf came along we just slotted that alongside Santa.
This year we didn't put up any xmas lights - it was just too much. I though I would have more feelings about it, but I just don't. I used to feel that a bunch of lights were just generally festive. A minimum effort sort of thing, and yes, a little cheugy.
*just the pure disneyfication of reality
posted by zenon at 6:51 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
the manic optimism that radiated off of other people in the lead-up
I'm always struck by how abruptly the Christmas holidays end. December 26th comes and suddenly an entire two months of anticipation suddenly crashes into nothing. The trees get dragged out to the curb, the lights come down, and everything that was nice and cozy just stops and we're left adrift in the bleakness of January.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:53 AM on January 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm always struck by how abruptly the Christmas holidays end. December 26th comes and suddenly an entire two months of anticipation suddenly crashes into nothing. The trees get dragged out to the curb, the lights come down, and everything that was nice and cozy just stops and we're left adrift in the bleakness of January.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:53 AM on January 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
That's because we're doing it wrong and Christmas is supposed to be twelve days. Modern full time workers generally work way more hours a year than the typical medieval European peasant.
posted by coolname at 7:15 AM on January 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by coolname at 7:15 AM on January 9, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'm Jewish (married to a Catholic) and I love Christmas -- the secular American version where it's much more about Santa Claus and gift-giving than it is religious. Maybe it's consumerist but I enjoy thinking about what to get people and seeing what people think to get me. Emotion made physical.
posted by Galvanic at 8:50 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Galvanic at 8:50 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
The key to doing secular Christmas (and really ANY holiday or special occasion) "right" is to stop having exorbitant expectations. If all you're looking for is a nice day with family/friends/alone/whatever, chances are you'll get that. If you're looking for THE BEST DAY EVAR, well, probably not so much.
posted by cooker girl at 10:12 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 10:12 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I really enjoyed this convo, especially interested in the history piece because we tend to understand current conceptions of Christmas as natural and always having been thus - learning that US Protestants may have been less likely to celebrate in the past, and understanding the rise of Chanukah as corresponding with the rise of Zionism are really interesting.
I grew up with a mom who was an assimilated Jew who grew up celebrating Christmas, and we in turn celebrated too, but I came to hate the pressure and consumption of the holiday and I didn't celebrate for about 20 years until I was with a partner who really wanted to and I started to feel like a jerk for refusing. This resonated so much for me: : Once you actually get behind the lit-up window, though, it’s a consumer nightmare, and no matter how much money you spend, you never get what you want in return. My impression of Christmas—now that I actually celebrate it with my non-Jewish partner—is that the entire affective structure of the holiday is one of high expectations that are inevitably disappointed. It’s a day that promises to grant you access to the ideal version of your family—which of course is always out of reach. .
posted by latkes at 10:22 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I grew up with a mom who was an assimilated Jew who grew up celebrating Christmas, and we in turn celebrated too, but I came to hate the pressure and consumption of the holiday and I didn't celebrate for about 20 years until I was with a partner who really wanted to and I started to feel like a jerk for refusing. This resonated so much for me: : Once you actually get behind the lit-up window, though, it’s a consumer nightmare, and no matter how much money you spend, you never get what you want in return. My impression of Christmas—now that I actually celebrate it with my non-Jewish partner—is that the entire affective structure of the holiday is one of high expectations that are inevitably disappointed. It’s a day that promises to grant you access to the ideal version of your family—which of course is always out of reach. .
posted by latkes at 10:22 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ha, I insist on keeping the tree up until January 6th, coolname. Good to see I'm doing it properly.
posted by freethefeet at 11:17 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by freethefeet at 11:17 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
"I've always wondered - the winter holidays in the northern hemisphere are often loved for the coziness factor and feel partly like a celebration of sitting in a warm home consuming hot things while it's cold out. Are there any local southern hemisphere winter coze-fest-type celebrations?"
Not in NZ for the Anglo-descended population. There is a Māori celebration, Matariki, which became an official holiday last year, but it doesn't have those kinds of practices nor has it stabilised in wider society how it should be observed.
In fact Xmas is physically as well as culturally uncomfortable here in that traditional foods from the UK are still a big part of the culture, but it feels a bit wrong to prepare and consume them in summer temperatures. Some people actually organise "midwinter christmas" in NZ as an excuse to eat a big xmas dinner when it's dark and cold (and up until Matariki became a public holiday, there was an odd lack of winter holidays here, nothing to break up the cold and grey and keep you going).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:33 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not in NZ for the Anglo-descended population. There is a Māori celebration, Matariki, which became an official holiday last year, but it doesn't have those kinds of practices nor has it stabilised in wider society how it should be observed.
In fact Xmas is physically as well as culturally uncomfortable here in that traditional foods from the UK are still a big part of the culture, but it feels a bit wrong to prepare and consume them in summer temperatures. Some people actually organise "midwinter christmas" in NZ as an excuse to eat a big xmas dinner when it's dark and cold (and up until Matariki became a public holiday, there was an odd lack of winter holidays here, nothing to break up the cold and grey and keep you going).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:33 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Via the very first Mefi post on this subject. Hilarious.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:59 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 11:59 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really enjoyed the article. When I was growing up we didn't celebrate Christmas because we're Muslim so why would we? No Santa Claus, tree at home or presents. We would still take part in the general holiday and bake cookies and cut them out into Christmas shapes and I remember taking photos with mall Santas as well but I always knew that Santa wasn't real and also that I shouldn't tell any of my friends/classmates. I identify with the statements about looking at the Christmas displays from outside and also of that feeling of being other but being superior at the same time and I think I hold on to that to this day.
I'm still pretty ambivalent towards Christmas but my wife is really into it even though she grew up as a secular person in Japan. Her lens is that Christmas is a fun tradition and is exciting for kids so why not take part in it? So our kids believed in Santa Claus, the younger one still does although I think this will be his last year for that, and for a couple of years we bought a tree for Christmas, but now we just decorate some light up birch trees. Surprisingly my mom is into it and gives presents to everyone too. I can't take Christ out of Christmas so I'll get gifts for the family but it's more a chore for me than anything else. I get that a lot of Christmas is now secular, but why is it that we're supposed to enjoy this "secular" holiday that happens to also be a Christian one and aren't say enjoying a secular holiday during Ramadan or Rosh Hashanah?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:08 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm still pretty ambivalent towards Christmas but my wife is really into it even though she grew up as a secular person in Japan. Her lens is that Christmas is a fun tradition and is exciting for kids so why not take part in it? So our kids believed in Santa Claus, the younger one still does although I think this will be his last year for that, and for a couple of years we bought a tree for Christmas, but now we just decorate some light up birch trees. Surprisingly my mom is into it and gives presents to everyone too. I can't take Christ out of Christmas so I'll get gifts for the family but it's more a chore for me than anything else. I get that a lot of Christmas is now secular, but why is it that we're supposed to enjoy this "secular" holiday that happens to also be a Christian one and aren't say enjoying a secular holiday during Ramadan or Rosh Hashanah?
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:08 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
The opinion that follows will probably get me ostracized, but I want to speak my truth.
Midwinter is the coldest, darkest period of the year. It is the time when nothing can grow, and people die of starvation, hypothermia, or being eaten by wolves. Under these circumstances, practices such as lighting decorative lights, singing cheerful melodies, and feasting are unseemly and demonstrate a frivolous disrespect for propriety. We shouldn't be hosting parties and exchanging gifts; we should be huddling under blankets in terror that the sun will never rise again.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:44 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Midwinter is the coldest, darkest period of the year. It is the time when nothing can grow, and people die of starvation, hypothermia, or being eaten by wolves. Under these circumstances, practices such as lighting decorative lights, singing cheerful melodies, and feasting are unseemly and demonstrate a frivolous disrespect for propriety. We shouldn't be hosting parties and exchanging gifts; we should be huddling under blankets in terror that the sun will never rise again.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:44 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Midwinter is the coldest, darkest period of the year. It is the time when nothing can grow, and people die of starvation,
That's March, actually, and this reads like a parody.
posted by Galvanic at 2:57 PM on January 9, 2023
That's March, actually, and this reads like a parody.
posted by Galvanic at 2:57 PM on January 9, 2023
FTA, regarding Santa:
“And then schools are making the myth compulsory by calling parents and saying, 'Your kid can’t tell people that this isn’t real.'”
Seriously? This isn't the school's business.
Is it insensitive for me to say that a lot of this resonates with me as an atheist?
And — as those who know me well on MeFi — I'm definitely not a strident atheist. In fact, I think matters of religious faith are things to take seriously and part of why I'm uncomfortable with Christmas is that it strikes as disingenuous to pretend it's a secular holiday. The only reason anyone thinks it can be secular is because they live in a culture that's so hegemonically Christian that a deracinated Christmas seems "secular" even though it's CHRIST MASS.
I'm not comfortable, as an atheist, "pretending" that this isn't the second-holiest Christian holiday. It's okay for believers, but if you're an unbeliever who isn't comfortable celebrating, you're a grinch.
Neither sides of my family are churchgoers (with a handful of exceptions) and so for them it really seems very secular, so they find my discomfort with Christmas off-putting. I've tried to disengage from the holiday, and that didn't go well.
The thing is, just like the Jewish commenters in the article and especially as someone who celebrated Christmas as a child, I very much still feel the attraction to the magic coziness, family togetherness, and pretty sparkling lights of the holiday, which leaves me very ambivalent.
That said, this year as has been the case with about half of the time in the last 25 years, I spent Christmas at home alone, and I always find it very quiet and restful and I especially appreciate how the world outside kind of stops.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:49 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
“And then schools are making the myth compulsory by calling parents and saying, 'Your kid can’t tell people that this isn’t real.'”
Seriously? This isn't the school's business.
Is it insensitive for me to say that a lot of this resonates with me as an atheist?
And — as those who know me well on MeFi — I'm definitely not a strident atheist. In fact, I think matters of religious faith are things to take seriously and part of why I'm uncomfortable with Christmas is that it strikes as disingenuous to pretend it's a secular holiday. The only reason anyone thinks it can be secular is because they live in a culture that's so hegemonically Christian that a deracinated Christmas seems "secular" even though it's CHRIST MASS.
I'm not comfortable, as an atheist, "pretending" that this isn't the second-holiest Christian holiday. It's okay for believers, but if you're an unbeliever who isn't comfortable celebrating, you're a grinch.
Neither sides of my family are churchgoers (with a handful of exceptions) and so for them it really seems very secular, so they find my discomfort with Christmas off-putting. I've tried to disengage from the holiday, and that didn't go well.
The thing is, just like the Jewish commenters in the article and especially as someone who celebrated Christmas as a child, I very much still feel the attraction to the magic coziness, family togetherness, and pretty sparkling lights of the holiday, which leaves me very ambivalent.
That said, this year as has been the case with about half of the time in the last 25 years, I spent Christmas at home alone, and I always find it very quiet and restful and I especially appreciate how the world outside kind of stops.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 4:49 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
The only reason anyone thinks it can be secular is because they live in a culture that's so hegemonically Christian that a deracinated Christmas seems "secular" even though it's CHRIST MASS.
August is named after Caesar Augustus. Words lose their original meaning.
posted by Galvanic at 7:19 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
August is named after Caesar Augustus. Words lose their original meaning.
posted by Galvanic at 7:19 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can assure you as a former Jewish child the etymology of Christmas was extremely salient to me.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:43 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:43 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
the lights come down, and everything that was nice and cozy just stops
In my parts I've been appreciating how people's various decorations just... stay up until whatever lol. Granting that it may be a psychic effect of this being Month N??? 2020, I do enjoy it. The dangling skulls under snow. The lit trees of spring returning.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:54 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my parts I've been appreciating how people's various decorations just... stay up until whatever lol. Granting that it may be a psychic effect of this being Month N??? 2020, I do enjoy it. The dangling skulls under snow. The lit trees of spring returning.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:54 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
The only reason anyone thinks it can be secular is because they live in a culture that's so hegemonically Christian that a deracinated Christmas seems "secular" even though it's CHRIST MASS.
It is definitely possible to celebrate it with absolutely no reference to religion, though. Trees, lights, Father Christmas, presents, turkey, Christmas pudding, mince pies, Christmas jumpers, crackers, robins, advent calendars, Wham, Slade, TV Christmas specials, The Snowman… there’s no shortage of Christmassy stuff available.
Meanwhile the percentage of people in the UK who identify as Christian has been declining for decades — below 50% for the first time at the last census — and the percentages who believe that Christ was the son of God or who ever go to church are much lower than that.
There has been no decline in the popularity of Christmas. I can’t see any reason to think the UK would stop celebrating Christmas however secular the country became.
How much would people’s celebration of Christmas have to be decoupled from Christianity before it made more sense to think of it as a secular festival which happened at the same time as, and shared a historical origin with, the religious festival?
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:04 AM on January 10, 2023
It is definitely possible to celebrate it with absolutely no reference to religion, though. Trees, lights, Father Christmas, presents, turkey, Christmas pudding, mince pies, Christmas jumpers, crackers, robins, advent calendars, Wham, Slade, TV Christmas specials, The Snowman… there’s no shortage of Christmassy stuff available.
Meanwhile the percentage of people in the UK who identify as Christian has been declining for decades — below 50% for the first time at the last census — and the percentages who believe that Christ was the son of God or who ever go to church are much lower than that.
There has been no decline in the popularity of Christmas. I can’t see any reason to think the UK would stop celebrating Christmas however secular the country became.
How much would people’s celebration of Christmas have to be decoupled from Christianity before it made more sense to think of it as a secular festival which happened at the same time as, and shared a historical origin with, the religious festival?
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:04 AM on January 10, 2023
I suppose I value the idea of a secular Christmas because I don’t think that Christian institutions should be able to claim ownership of Christmas. Clearly Christmas wouldn’t be so culturally important in the UK if we weren’t a historically Christian country; but the explosion of Christmas stuff every year is not a flowering of religiosity, or even of Christian identity.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:32 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:32 AM on January 10, 2023
Apologies for going off-topic, I know this post was a US article about Jewish perspectives on Christmas, and my perspective as a secular non-Jew in the UK is really not the point.
I liked the article! Thanks for posting it!
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:41 AM on January 10, 2023
I liked the article! Thanks for posting it!
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:41 AM on January 10, 2023
This was a really interesting and thoughtful piece - thanks for posting it. I wish they had included at least one Orthodox (or a more religious non-Orthodox) person’s perspective in the mix. While demographically it’s more likely for an American Jew to marry outside the faith than affiliate as someone religious, it still felt a bit much to have a conversation about Jewish views on Christmas that was so weighted with perspectives of people who celebrate it with family members.
I grew up religious (Conservative) in a very Christian area, where Christmas was very much about Jesus. In school we all had to sing the explicitly-religious Christmas carols, not the secular ones, and as anyone who prays silently knows, that means just mouthing along with those while everyone else is singing isn’t actually a significantly better option. But when you stand there not singing, everyone notices and makes it super uncomfortable for you. In a place where “Happy holidays” has lately translated into “War on Christmas,” outright rejecting Christmas was an invitation to proselytizing at best and being seen as an inherently bad person at worst. There wasn’t a middle ground. I was even told at an impressionable age by someone that Xmas trees were religious - ‘the trunk is the wood of the cross, the evergreen represents his eternal life, the red balls symbolize his blood’ - which in retrospect I think is pretty out there even for a hugely evangelical town, but what do I know? So while I’m not sure I was raised in our home to be anti-Christmas - I’m pretty sure it was simply “Jews don’t do that” mixed with “toys don’t come from Santa Claus, they come from the top shelf of the closet if you know where to look when mom’s not home,” to Christmas lights are pretty, plus watching all the TV specials like everyone else did (and getting super uncomfortable or going for a snack when Linus broke out the scriptures), I became extremely anti-Christmas by my experiences outside the house. Outside of a few pop songs, Christmas music makes me viscerally uncomfortable. Seeing mangers in corporate or public spaces makes me furious. But I still love seeing the lights and watching the movies. Or at least the comedies. I’ve never actually seen It’s a Wonderful Life the whole way through. For what it’s worth, in my opinion the hands-down best take on the Jewish view of Christmas is The Latke Who Couldn’t Stop Screaming, which encapsulates my youth perfectly and frankly needs its own animated special as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, fun fact for the religiously-inclined Jews out there: Maoz Tzur fits perfectly to the tune of Deck the Halls.
posted by Mchelly at 8:12 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I grew up religious (Conservative) in a very Christian area, where Christmas was very much about Jesus. In school we all had to sing the explicitly-religious Christmas carols, not the secular ones, and as anyone who prays silently knows, that means just mouthing along with those while everyone else is singing isn’t actually a significantly better option. But when you stand there not singing, everyone notices and makes it super uncomfortable for you. In a place where “Happy holidays” has lately translated into “War on Christmas,” outright rejecting Christmas was an invitation to proselytizing at best and being seen as an inherently bad person at worst. There wasn’t a middle ground. I was even told at an impressionable age by someone that Xmas trees were religious - ‘the trunk is the wood of the cross, the evergreen represents his eternal life, the red balls symbolize his blood’ - which in retrospect I think is pretty out there even for a hugely evangelical town, but what do I know? So while I’m not sure I was raised in our home to be anti-Christmas - I’m pretty sure it was simply “Jews don’t do that” mixed with “toys don’t come from Santa Claus, they come from the top shelf of the closet if you know where to look when mom’s not home,” to Christmas lights are pretty, plus watching all the TV specials like everyone else did (and getting super uncomfortable or going for a snack when Linus broke out the scriptures), I became extremely anti-Christmas by my experiences outside the house. Outside of a few pop songs, Christmas music makes me viscerally uncomfortable. Seeing mangers in corporate or public spaces makes me furious. But I still love seeing the lights and watching the movies. Or at least the comedies. I’ve never actually seen It’s a Wonderful Life the whole way through. For what it’s worth, in my opinion the hands-down best take on the Jewish view of Christmas is The Latke Who Couldn’t Stop Screaming, which encapsulates my youth perfectly and frankly needs its own animated special as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, fun fact for the religiously-inclined Jews out there: Maoz Tzur fits perfectly to the tune of Deck the Halls.
posted by Mchelly at 8:12 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can assure you as a former Jewish child the etymology of Christmas was extremely salient to me.
Are you speaking for everyone?
posted by Galvanic at 3:54 PM on January 10, 2023
Are you speaking for everyone?
posted by Galvanic at 3:54 PM on January 10, 2023
I also grew up very religious, and am now married to a non Jew. As a child, we did not celebrate non-Jewish holidays, including most secular holidays. So no Christmas, Valentine’s Day or thanksgiving. Yes to all the fun minor Jewish holiday like Tu B’Shvat.
I now have Christmas with my in-laws, and frankly, I hate Christmas. It’s been a struggle to not ruin it for my kids, but I’ve done well.
I prefer religious Christmas. A holiday that’s not for me,, but celebrates your religion? Fine with me. Being told that Christmas is now secular and I need to enjoy? Hate it. The thing I hate the most is when a well-meaning person tells me that it is only natural to celebrate the darkest time of the year with lights and trees. Really? Your traditions are natural and somehow universal, but mine aren’t?
I will stop ranting. I survived Christmas and another won’t come for almost a year.
posted by Valancy Rachel at 3:55 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
I now have Christmas with my in-laws, and frankly, I hate Christmas. It’s been a struggle to not ruin it for my kids, but I’ve done well.
I prefer religious Christmas. A holiday that’s not for me,, but celebrates your religion? Fine with me. Being told that Christmas is now secular and I need to enjoy? Hate it. The thing I hate the most is when a well-meaning person tells me that it is only natural to celebrate the darkest time of the year with lights and trees. Really? Your traditions are natural and somehow universal, but mine aren’t?
I will stop ranting. I survived Christmas and another won’t come for almost a year.
posted by Valancy Rachel at 3:55 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
" Are you speaking for everyone?"
Nope. I do think it's odd to not see it if you come from outside. That was phrased over-confidently though, you're right, and I'm sorry.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:02 PM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nope. I do think it's odd to not see it if you come from outside. That was phrased over-confidently though, you're right, and I'm sorry.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:02 PM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I grew up as a half-Jewish kid who also celebrated Christmas - with most of the traditions we used for Christmas also coming from the same side of my family as my Judaism. My mom was Israeli-American, and many of my Jewish experiences were far different than the typical American Jewish experience, which gave me a lot of discomfort with my Jewish identity. Even my mom more or less hid the fact that we celebrated Christmas and had a tree from certain family friends. Suffice to say that this is a complicated topic for me.
I enjoy our Christmas traditions and I do still celebrate it, as does my husband, who is a recent immigrant with a Hindu background. He loves Christmas (our traditions are things like Christmas trees, baking, decorating our home, visiting family, and cozy things - we don't really do lavish gifts in our family, and definitely nothing remotely Jesus-y) and he is quick to point out how many other non-Christian immigrant communities (particularly Hindu ones) have adopted Christmas traditions, perhaps as a form of assimilation. He actually struggles to understand the typical Jewish perspective on Christmas. This conversation is thoughtful and helpful, especially as we think about potentially having kids and handling tradition & holidays for them. I don't personally feel like my family's version of Christmas is a particularly Christian holiday, even if others want to tell me it is.
posted by mosst at 6:57 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I enjoy our Christmas traditions and I do still celebrate it, as does my husband, who is a recent immigrant with a Hindu background. He loves Christmas (our traditions are things like Christmas trees, baking, decorating our home, visiting family, and cozy things - we don't really do lavish gifts in our family, and definitely nothing remotely Jesus-y) and he is quick to point out how many other non-Christian immigrant communities (particularly Hindu ones) have adopted Christmas traditions, perhaps as a form of assimilation. He actually struggles to understand the typical Jewish perspective on Christmas. This conversation is thoughtful and helpful, especially as we think about potentially having kids and handling tradition & holidays for them. I don't personally feel like my family's version of Christmas is a particularly Christian holiday, even if others want to tell me it is.
posted by mosst at 6:57 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The comments from non-Christians here are very relatable. I grew up as a Hindu in the UK, and I find it hard to separate the religious aspects of Christmas from the secular aspects, both because my school emphasised the Christian side of it and because my parents drilled into me that Christmas just isn't something we do.
I find it ironic when people try and tell me it's completely divorced from religion and therefore I should be totally OK celebrating it. As another commenter said, why are your traditions universal and mine aren't? I try to keep a respectful distance from Christmas; it will never be my celebration, but I'll take part when necessary to show my goodwill to my friends and family who do.
I actually went to my first one ever this year. My partner and his family celebrate it in a secular way. The overall cosy winter aesthetic is beautiful, but the food associated with Christmas is bland and buying unique & fair presents for everyone is a nightmare. Still, surprisingly, it was alright.
posted by wandering zinnia at 4:25 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I find it ironic when people try and tell me it's completely divorced from religion and therefore I should be totally OK celebrating it. As another commenter said, why are your traditions universal and mine aren't? I try to keep a respectful distance from Christmas; it will never be my celebration, but I'll take part when necessary to show my goodwill to my friends and family who do.
I actually went to my first one ever this year. My partner and his family celebrate it in a secular way. The overall cosy winter aesthetic is beautiful, but the food associated with Christmas is bland and buying unique & fair presents for everyone is a nightmare. Still, surprisingly, it was alright.
posted by wandering zinnia at 4:25 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
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