September 6, 2002
10:11 PM Subscribe
That was the lamest FPP I've seen in the two years of reading MeFi. So, in that sense, congrats, sudama, you've accomplished something.
posted by jonson at 10:27 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by jonson at 10:27 PM on September 6, 2002
Well, I was gonna say, "I'll be interested in the responses to this." Personally, I don't have a problem with any of these suggestions. They all seem pretty common sense to me.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:31 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by octobersurprise at 10:31 PM on September 6, 2002
*pretty commonsensical*
posted by octobersurprise at 10:32 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by octobersurprise at 10:32 PM on September 6, 2002
Jumping Jesus on a Pogo stick. I couldn't begin to live up to the requirements made on this list, and I'm a feminist woman!!
I picture this list being written on a dry-erase board at a seminar, while people called out ideas from the audience. It's a beginning of a discussion. To me, it seems like a poor instruction guide, because: 1. The entries are contradictory (part "get rid of your gender role assumptions" and part "you men always..." 2. They're too numerous to adhere to, and 3. They don't stop to discuss how to do all these things, or to clarify what they mean exactly. I mean "Do not sexually objectify us" is something I can get behind (as are many if not most of the other entries), but sexual objectification means wildly different things to different people (yes, even different women), and the real problem is, we're all (men and women alike) taught to sexually objectify women from the get-go, so how do you just stop? Not so easy.
So like I said, this seems like a good springboard for a discussion, because a lot of the ideas here are right on or at least interesting and vital. But I have a feeling most men confronted with this, presented in a "Do this right now!" light, are going to feel angry and on the defensive, because they're being given impossible orders instead of a chance to join the discussion.
(On preview: however, I don't think it was a lame post. I mean, it's catching people's interest, making them want to talk about the subject, right? What's so bad?)
posted by hilatron at 10:33 PM on September 6, 2002
I picture this list being written on a dry-erase board at a seminar, while people called out ideas from the audience. It's a beginning of a discussion. To me, it seems like a poor instruction guide, because: 1. The entries are contradictory (part "get rid of your gender role assumptions" and part "you men always..." 2. They're too numerous to adhere to, and 3. They don't stop to discuss how to do all these things, or to clarify what they mean exactly. I mean "Do not sexually objectify us" is something I can get behind (as are many if not most of the other entries), but sexual objectification means wildly different things to different people (yes, even different women), and the real problem is, we're all (men and women alike) taught to sexually objectify women from the get-go, so how do you just stop? Not so easy.
So like I said, this seems like a good springboard for a discussion, because a lot of the ideas here are right on or at least interesting and vital. But I have a feeling most men confronted with this, presented in a "Do this right now!" light, are going to feel angry and on the defensive, because they're being given impossible orders instead of a chance to join the discussion.
(On preview: however, I don't think it was a lame post. I mean, it's catching people's interest, making them want to talk about the subject, right? What's so bad?)
posted by hilatron at 10:33 PM on September 6, 2002
Some of my favorites:
- Don't be egotistical because you're "better" than mainstream guys
- Give us more mad props
- Don't act as if you can understand our oppression (what's the list for, then?)
- Don't force women to be "nags" (oh, that's how it happens)
- Write stuff down!
- Don't make it so hard to be friends
- Don't ask us to cuddle if we're in a platonic relationship
- Encourage women to do adventurous stuff (as long as it's not out-of-relationship cuddling, of course)
Come on, this has to be a joke. If not, it's a shame that so many of them seem to pigeonhole women as being sexually repressed and unable to pursue some sort of physical relationship sans "intimacy." I had a good laugh either way.
posted by The God Complex at 10:43 PM on September 6, 2002
- Don't be egotistical because you're "better" than mainstream guys
- Give us more mad props
- Don't act as if you can understand our oppression (what's the list for, then?)
- Don't force women to be "nags" (oh, that's how it happens)
- Write stuff down!
- Don't make it so hard to be friends
- Don't ask us to cuddle if we're in a platonic relationship
- Encourage women to do adventurous stuff (as long as it's not out-of-relationship cuddling, of course)
Come on, this has to be a joke. If not, it's a shame that so many of them seem to pigeonhole women as being sexually repressed and unable to pursue some sort of physical relationship sans "intimacy." I had a good laugh either way.
posted by The God Complex at 10:43 PM on September 6, 2002
yes, a "list of demands from women" doesn't make me angry, but that phrasing, and the poor structure will make me ignore it. i'd say most of those "demands" are asinine and simplistic. i'll try not to let it further worsen my view of the people that practice that form of "girlz rule!" feminism though.
posted by rhyax at 10:49 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by rhyax at 10:49 PM on September 6, 2002
I don't want to sound flip, so I'll elaborate. On the whole the list sounds like commonsensical ways to treat anyone, male or female. That said, of course, every group's and every individual's milage will vary a little. I think it's up to me to use a little native intelligence, empathy, and humor to determine when following those suggestions are just good manners and when blindly following them makes me a dull boring shrew. Sometimes I might be wrong. It's all about communications, people.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:52 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by octobersurprise at 10:52 PM on September 6, 2002
Could someone... anyone... female, male, feminist, dominatrix I don't care,
What the hell is Mad Props and how do I give to someone?
Supposedly, men have already given women some mad props, and now they're demanding more? Is there a "Mad Props" gauge I should know about on women? Should I give Mad Props to strangers? Does my mom deserve my Mad Props? How much Mad Props do I have to give???
I'm SO CONFUSED!
posted by Stan Chin at 10:53 PM on September 6, 2002
What the hell is Mad Props and how do I give to someone?
Supposedly, men have already given women some mad props, and now they're demanding more? Is there a "Mad Props" gauge I should know about on women? Should I give Mad Props to strangers? Does my mom deserve my Mad Props? How much Mad Props do I have to give???
I'm SO CONFUSED!
posted by Stan Chin at 10:53 PM on September 6, 2002
Focus on areas of disagreement. (That's conversation. That's how progress is made.)
posted by Wood at 10:56 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by Wood at 10:56 PM on September 6, 2002
This was obviously a brainstorming session, as hilatron mentions. As such, it's necessary to do two things:
1. Figure out what's universal and correct amongst all those ideas (many of them looked specific to their community and to activism).
2. Recognize that the concept, that men are as important to the women's movement as women, is valid.
My favorite picks that may meet #1:
· Take sexism on as your struggle
· Don't act as if you can understand our oppression (even my feminist hubby realizes he doesn't fully understand how life is for women)
· Fight sexual violence in your community
· Realize that women don't hate men
· Don't make excuses for your sexism, deal with it
· Realize that women don't always feel comfortable or empowered enough to stand up for themselves (awful, but true)
· Stand up to each other
· Be mindful of the language you use (i.e., girls, boys, guys, women, men)
Furthermore, a short list for women:
-It is disrespectful to not confront a man you feel has harassed you. Men are not idiots or animals; no man can change his behavior if he isn't aware of it.
-Let men be men. Let them watch boxing and drink beer and hang out with other men.
-Learn about men. Knowledge breeds respect.
posted by frykitty at 10:57 PM on September 6, 2002
1. Figure out what's universal and correct amongst all those ideas (many of them looked specific to their community and to activism).
2. Recognize that the concept, that men are as important to the women's movement as women, is valid.
My favorite picks that may meet #1:
· Take sexism on as your struggle
· Don't act as if you can understand our oppression (even my feminist hubby realizes he doesn't fully understand how life is for women)
· Fight sexual violence in your community
· Realize that women don't hate men
· Don't make excuses for your sexism, deal with it
· Realize that women don't always feel comfortable or empowered enough to stand up for themselves (awful, but true)
· Stand up to each other
· Be mindful of the language you use (i.e., girls, boys, guys, women, men)
Furthermore, a short list for women:
-It is disrespectful to not confront a man you feel has harassed you. Men are not idiots or animals; no man can change his behavior if he isn't aware of it.
-Let men be men. Let them watch boxing and drink beer and hang out with other men.
-Learn about men. Knowledge breeds respect.
posted by frykitty at 10:57 PM on September 6, 2002
Shit! I wish I had said "Don't focus on areas of disagreement." Sarcasm just wasn't the right hammer for that particular screw.
posted by Wood at 10:58 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by Wood at 10:58 PM on September 6, 2002
-Let men be men. Let them watch boxing and drink beer and hang out with other men.
Not at Augusta though, right? ;)
posted by The God Complex at 10:59 PM on September 6, 2002
Not at Augusta though, right? ;)
posted by The God Complex at 10:59 PM on September 6, 2002
Not at Augusta though, right? ;)
Ha! :)
I'm obviously not into exclusion; however, I am a fan of sports bars because they attract an almost exclusively male clientele into an atmosphere that doesn't demean women like, say, Augusta or a strip joint.
I don't think there's a damned thing wrong with hanging out with your own gender, provided you aren't spending that time belittling the other one.
posted by frykitty at 11:05 PM on September 6, 2002
Ha! :)
I'm obviously not into exclusion; however, I am a fan of sports bars because they attract an almost exclusively male clientele into an atmosphere that doesn't demean women like, say, Augusta or a strip joint.
I don't think there's a damned thing wrong with hanging out with your own gender, provided you aren't spending that time belittling the other one.
posted by frykitty at 11:05 PM on September 6, 2002
Stand up for women; assume that they're right.
Recognize women for all work that is done, even yours.
Don't be egotistical because you're "better" than mainstream guys
Don't make it so hard to be friends
Realize that we will help you with your mistakes
Don't be defensive
Why would I be defensive?
posted by 4easypayments at 11:14 PM on September 6, 2002
Recognize women for all work that is done, even yours.
Don't be egotistical because you're "better" than mainstream guys
Don't make it so hard to be friends
Realize that we will help you with your mistakes
Don't be defensive
Why would I be defensive?
posted by 4easypayments at 11:14 PM on September 6, 2002
Men are not idiots or animals
Let them... drink beer
See why I married this wonderful woman? FWIW, I agree with octobersurprise above. The list seems mostly commonsense to me, once you get past the strident tone.e
posted by sennoma at 11:23 PM on September 6, 2002
Let them... drink beer
See why I married this wonderful woman? FWIW, I agree with octobersurprise above. The list seems mostly commonsense to me, once you get past the strident tone.e
posted by sennoma at 11:23 PM on September 6, 2002
Reduces all to don't be egotistical... on both all every side.
posted by mblandi at 11:30 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by mblandi at 11:30 PM on September 6, 2002
So, in that sense, congrats, sudama, you've accomplished something.
Actually, sudama has accomplished a great deal in the way of bringing an important, but sadly unusual, viewpoint to the community. I suspect that one of the reasons he posts far less frequently than I'd like is the sniping from clueless assholes that his posts so often draw. So in that sense, congrats, jonson, you've accomplished something.
posted by sennoma at 11:38 PM on September 6, 2002
Actually, sudama has accomplished a great deal in the way of bringing an important, but sadly unusual, viewpoint to the community. I suspect that one of the reasons he posts far less frequently than I'd like is the sniping from clueless assholes that his posts so often draw. So in that sense, congrats, jonson, you've accomplished something.
posted by sennoma at 11:38 PM on September 6, 2002
au contraire; if he never posts again, then perhaps I can feel like I've accomplished something. Till then, we clueless assholes must remain vigilant against the ever present threat of important viewpoints, no matter how sadly unusual they may be.
posted by jonson at 11:54 PM on September 6, 2002
posted by jonson at 11:54 PM on September 6, 2002
Jonson, get over your ego and think through your actions, taking all of our views into account. Don't get defensive and admit when you fuck up. Don't be egotistical because you're "better" than sudama, and I wish you didn't make it so hard to be friends.
Oh, and don't ask to cuddle sudama, because you're in a platonic relationship.
posted by Stan Chin at 12:08 AM on September 7, 2002
Oh, and don't ask to cuddle sudama, because you're in a platonic relationship.
posted by Stan Chin at 12:08 AM on September 7, 2002
Inflammatory content aside, I *have* often wondered how I, as a man, can really participate in eliminating sexism beyond changing my own behavior. This list does highlight a few things I'm *not* doing in regards to my own behavior. It also highlights many things that everyone could do to make things better for each other. It also comes off as a little obnoxious. So sayeth Banky, anyway.
posted by Banky_Edwards at 12:16 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by Banky_Edwards at 12:16 AM on September 7, 2002
Stan, dammit, you give me mad props, and you give them to me now!!!
Seriously people, I don't mean to be one of those dicks that derails threads, but I really honestly felt this to be an amazingly poorly thought through collection of "suggestions" for the very real issue of gender bias that women face daily. I just hate when I see something so foolishly stated that it makes me ashamed to support its general intent. I mean, seriously, sudama views this as a list of ideas of how men can "take sexism on as their own struggle" and then the list contains "give us more mad props" and "Don't make it so hard to be friends". Gloria Steinem this is not.
So, once again, let the record state: Jonson = in favor of enlightenment re: gender inequality, Jonson != in favor of collection of lame obvious brainstorming session callouts
posted by jonson at 12:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Seriously people, I don't mean to be one of those dicks that derails threads, but I really honestly felt this to be an amazingly poorly thought through collection of "suggestions" for the very real issue of gender bias that women face daily. I just hate when I see something so foolishly stated that it makes me ashamed to support its general intent. I mean, seriously, sudama views this as a list of ideas of how men can "take sexism on as their own struggle" and then the list contains "give us more mad props" and "Don't make it so hard to be friends". Gloria Steinem this is not.
So, once again, let the record state: Jonson = in favor of enlightenment re: gender inequality, Jonson != in favor of collection of lame obvious brainstorming session callouts
posted by jonson at 12:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Then you should probably stop jumping all over sudama and settle whatever the fuck it is you have against him somewhere else and focus on the idiocy of the link content. If you didn't notice there's a pretty good discussion going on, and if you stripped your last post of all the sudama references you'd actually be contributing and making some very good points (Most of which I agree with you on).
No mad props for you.
posted by Stan Chin at 12:26 AM on September 7, 2002
No mad props for you.
posted by Stan Chin at 12:26 AM on September 7, 2002
Fair enough, Stan, you're right; for what it's worth, I have nothing against sudama, and have never noticed him before this post. In the future, in comments, I'll try to focus on the content, not the poster.
posted by jonson at 12:29 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by jonson at 12:29 AM on September 7, 2002
Holy shit did self-policing just work? It's a Metafilter miracle! That was incredibly civil of you jonson, once I figure out how to give mad props you've got them all.
Feeble attempt to get back on topic: Yeah, so what do you chicks want?
posted by Stan Chin at 12:34 AM on September 7, 2002
Feeble attempt to get back on topic: Yeah, so what do you chicks want?
posted by Stan Chin at 12:34 AM on September 7, 2002
I, for one, feel that the list would be more useful if all the suggestions were gender-neutral. Then we could just try to apply them to everyone.
Dilbert author Scott Adams had this to say in his offbeat e-book-turned-hardcover God's Debris:
1. Men see women as defective versions of men.
2. Women see men as defective versions of women.
Anyone here guilty of this, besides myself?
posted by plexiwatt at 12:34 AM on September 7, 2002
Dilbert author Scott Adams had this to say in his offbeat e-book-turned-hardcover God's Debris:
1. Men see women as defective versions of men.
2. Women see men as defective versions of women.
Anyone here guilty of this, besides myself?
posted by plexiwatt at 12:34 AM on September 7, 2002
It reads like it should be spoken by a robot on a radiohead track.
This is progress?
posted by holloway at 12:41 AM on September 7, 2002
This is progress?
posted by holloway at 12:41 AM on September 7, 2002
Mad props, hilatron. I was starting to feel a little ganged up on, since I just read a Emma Goldwoman article on Indymedia and I recognized it as either a troll or the ravings of a clearly insane person. Nevertheless, nearly half of the comments attached there were positive. Then I read this list, which seemed ranty and unorganized, but sincere and scary and I did get defensive and angry.
I'm still kind of worried about how many people in the activist community don't have their heads on straight, though.
Also, is it really that wrong of me to think that gender role socialization is as important as sexism and that, in fact, gender role socialization and sexism are exactly the same thing?
posted by Skwirl at 12:50 AM on September 7, 2002
I'm still kind of worried about how many people in the activist community don't have their heads on straight, though.
Also, is it really that wrong of me to think that gender role socialization is as important as sexism and that, in fact, gender role socialization and sexism are exactly the same thing?
posted by Skwirl at 12:50 AM on September 7, 2002
The chicks can't hold their smoke. That's what it is.
posted by bingo at 1:04 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by bingo at 1:04 AM on September 7, 2002
I for one welcome our new matriarchal overladies.
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:10 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by WolfDaddy at 1:10 AM on September 7, 2002
in an attempt to enlighten myself, i did a gis for "mad props."
heres what i found.
posted by joedan at 1:40 AM on September 7, 2002
heres what i found.
posted by joedan at 1:40 AM on September 7, 2002
Don't force women to be "nags"
Yes, this list is proof positive that some women can do it just fine on their own. It's so refreshing to find such an independent thinker.
posted by fatbobsmith at 2:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Yes, this list is proof positive that some women can do it just fine on their own. It's so refreshing to find such an independent thinker.
posted by fatbobsmith at 2:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Recognize women for all work that is done, even yours
Recognize PEOPLE for the work THEY DO. This line is what made me think the list was a parody at first. It, and a few others, make the good suggestions look like filler between punch lines.
Most of the rest, if stripped of the patronizing and stereotyping (which, to be fair, is probably in the context of venting frustration, and should be taken as such), amounts to: "respect people, recognize problems and work to solve them, help people when you can, and be thoughtful of your actions. All good advice.
posted by Nothing at 2:24 AM on September 7, 2002
Recognize PEOPLE for the work THEY DO. This line is what made me think the list was a parody at first. It, and a few others, make the good suggestions look like filler between punch lines.
Most of the rest, if stripped of the patronizing and stereotyping (which, to be fair, is probably in the context of venting frustration, and should be taken as such), amounts to: "respect people, recognize problems and work to solve them, help people when you can, and be thoughtful of your actions. All good advice.
posted by Nothing at 2:24 AM on September 7, 2002
"Here you are dear - it's a large papier maché apple, I bought it from a touring theatre company."
Oh, and:
· Don't force women to be "nags"
Because you do, you know, you make them do it. If you weren't so wrong all the time, they wouldn't have to go on repeating their rightness.
Honestly.
Don't psychoanalysts have a word to describe this phenomenon - when you assign the quality of Otherness to a person or group and then proceed to decorate them with all the blame and responsibility - your own saintliness buoyed up by their increasing demonification?
(There's a lot of other funny stuff on that site. For example, I noticed that the real test of neologisms is their repeated incidence. Sad to say, the overuse of the phrase "of color" had me giggling several paragraphs into Where was the Color in Seattle?, particularly the phrase "experienced activists of color", which made me think of the person who does the lights at a Pink Floyd gig. Lest you think I'm needlessly flippant, I think the problem stems from the phrase needing to signify too widely - essentially it stands for "anyone who isn't white who wants to come along to the meetings on a regular basis" - without wishing to offend - because if you invert the phrase into the non-odd-sounding adjective you get "colored", which is bad. Poor little phrase is carrying more baggage than a coach-load of Indiana senior citizens on a six-month world tour)
posted by Grangousier at 2:30 AM on September 7, 2002
Oh, and:
· Don't force women to be "nags"
Because you do, you know, you make them do it. If you weren't so wrong all the time, they wouldn't have to go on repeating their rightness.
Honestly.
Don't psychoanalysts have a word to describe this phenomenon - when you assign the quality of Otherness to a person or group and then proceed to decorate them with all the blame and responsibility - your own saintliness buoyed up by their increasing demonification?
(There's a lot of other funny stuff on that site. For example, I noticed that the real test of neologisms is their repeated incidence. Sad to say, the overuse of the phrase "of color" had me giggling several paragraphs into Where was the Color in Seattle?, particularly the phrase "experienced activists of color", which made me think of the person who does the lights at a Pink Floyd gig. Lest you think I'm needlessly flippant, I think the problem stems from the phrase needing to signify too widely - essentially it stands for "anyone who isn't white who wants to come along to the meetings on a regular basis" - without wishing to offend - because if you invert the phrase into the non-odd-sounding adjective you get "colored", which is bad. Poor little phrase is carrying more baggage than a coach-load of Indiana senior citizens on a six-month world tour)
posted by Grangousier at 2:30 AM on September 7, 2002
Let them watch boxing and drink beer and hang out with other men.
My first demand of women is to let me hang out with them instead. Anyway, out of all the demands, this one made me most 'mwuh?':
Realize that "youth gone wild" is not necessarily radical
Youth Gone Wild?
posted by robself at 2:32 AM on September 7, 2002
My first demand of women is to let me hang out with them instead. Anyway, out of all the demands, this one made me most 'mwuh?':
Realize that "youth gone wild" is not necessarily radical
Youth Gone Wild?
posted by robself at 2:32 AM on September 7, 2002
you get "colored", which is bad
Colored is so very good, though. Don't unfairly discriminate against the Easter eggs.
Pretty eggs are good.
posted by hama7 at 5:11 AM on September 7, 2002
Colored is so very good, though. Don't unfairly discriminate against the Easter eggs.
Pretty eggs are good.
posted by hama7 at 5:11 AM on September 7, 2002
Sorry, but after the writer used the word gender, I had trouble taking them seriously.
I also believe that Grangousier makes a good point about the word color. Why is the term colored people offensive, but the term people of color acceptable. It's that sort of silliness that makes political correctness such an easy target for criticism.
Beholder
posted by Beholder at 5:18 AM on September 7, 2002
I also believe that Grangousier makes a good point about the word color. Why is the term colored people offensive, but the term people of color acceptable. It's that sort of silliness that makes political correctness such an easy target for criticism.
Beholder
posted by Beholder at 5:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Wow. I don't even know how to respond to that list, except to agree that the first item really makes it difficult to follow the rest seriously. I think there are some worthwhile items hidden in here (especially if applied to both sexes), but as a whole it seems to me pretty alienating to both genders (Don't force women to be "nags". What?!). As a woman, I resent blanket statements about the sensitivity and awareness of men; my husband is not a being that should be addressed in these patronizing (excuse the expression) terms, my (imaginary, potential) male child should not be automatically subjected to these sort of assumptions. I defend the equality of women on every level, and try to provide proof of that stance daily, but I will never agree to a line of thought that vilifies half the human population.
posted by taz at 5:25 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by taz at 5:25 AM on September 7, 2002
Amen, taz.
Blanket statements worsen the problems. Treat people as individuals. Don't expect a woman to act in a specific way, just because you've seen other women act in that way. Don't expect a man to think in a specific way, just because other men have thought in that way. And most important of all, get rid of the Victorian view that the sexes are opposite; don't think that because women feel about certain things in one way, men feel about them in another way. That there is specific female or male traits; i.e. that men are extroverts and women are introverts.
The biggest problem of sexism is that people think in sexes when they have no reason to. They think of individuals as either male or female and give those characteristics weight where it should have no importance.
posted by cx at 6:12 AM on September 7, 2002
Blanket statements worsen the problems. Treat people as individuals. Don't expect a woman to act in a specific way, just because you've seen other women act in that way. Don't expect a man to think in a specific way, just because other men have thought in that way. And most important of all, get rid of the Victorian view that the sexes are opposite; don't think that because women feel about certain things in one way, men feel about them in another way. That there is specific female or male traits; i.e. that men are extroverts and women are introverts.
The biggest problem of sexism is that people think in sexes when they have no reason to. They think of individuals as either male or female and give those characteristics weight where it should have no importance.
posted by cx at 6:12 AM on September 7, 2002
I would like to say
what a load of bollocks
thank you.
posted by johnnyboy at 6:34 AM on September 7, 2002
what a load of bollocks
thank you.
posted by johnnyboy at 6:34 AM on September 7, 2002
Mental note to self: Activism Chicks == bad attitude
posted by stbalbach at 6:35 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by stbalbach at 6:35 AM on September 7, 2002
Do no sexually objectify us
First off, if you want to be taken seriously, a thorough study of English grammar and spelling would go a very long way.
Second, stbalbach is right: Activism Chicks == bad attitude
Not entirely, I mean, I know some girls... sorry, wymyn... that are actually reasonable (though they're the ones that wouldn't mind being referred to as girls... I know I don't go ape if someone calls me a "guy" or a "boy"). But for the most part, it's true. I mean, what kind of power-starved people would write such a list? They just want to subjugate men (perhaps not conciously, but come on! Read the list!). I know this has been hashed over already, but I just feel so incredulous that I had to repeat it. The scary thing is that a lot of so-called critical theory is like this--critical race theory, critical gender theory, etc--and the white male is the devil and really should be confined to prisons and servant positions. Feh.
posted by The Michael The at 6:51 AM on September 7, 2002
First off, if you want to be taken seriously, a thorough study of English grammar and spelling would go a very long way.
Second, stbalbach is right: Activism Chicks == bad attitude
Not entirely, I mean, I know some girls... sorry, wymyn... that are actually reasonable (though they're the ones that wouldn't mind being referred to as girls... I know I don't go ape if someone calls me a "guy" or a "boy"). But for the most part, it's true. I mean, what kind of power-starved people would write such a list? They just want to subjugate men (perhaps not conciously, but come on! Read the list!). I know this has been hashed over already, but I just feel so incredulous that I had to repeat it. The scary thing is that a lot of so-called critical theory is like this--critical race theory, critical gender theory, etc--and the white male is the devil and really should be confined to prisons and servant positions. Feh.
posted by The Michael The at 6:51 AM on September 7, 2002
They just want to subjugate men
That would be a no. Unless you're into that sort of thing.
The scary thing is that a lot of so-called critical theory is like this--critical race theory, critical gender theory, etc--and the white male is the devil and really should be confined to prisons and servant positions. Feh.
If I thought you knew what the hell you were talking about I might take you a little more seriously. Feh. But I don't. Name all these theorists and books that advocate confining white men to prisons and servant positions.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:30 AM on September 7, 2002
That would be a no. Unless you're into that sort of thing.
The scary thing is that a lot of so-called critical theory is like this--critical race theory, critical gender theory, etc--and the white male is the devil and really should be confined to prisons and servant positions. Feh.
If I thought you knew what the hell you were talking about I might take you a little more seriously. Feh. But I don't. Name all these theorists and books that advocate confining white men to prisons and servant positions.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:30 AM on September 7, 2002
· Don't gawk at our body parts
do you even begin to realize how hard that is?
i mean, take our struggle seriously too!
posted by NekulturnY at 7:40 AM on September 7, 2002
do you even begin to realize how hard that is?
i mean, take our struggle seriously too!
posted by NekulturnY at 7:40 AM on September 7, 2002
I had seen the list and tried my hardest to ractise each and every one listed! And I was proud to say I was able to. My wife called me a friggin wimp and left me.
posted by Postroad at 7:48 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by Postroad at 7:48 AM on September 7, 2002
I find it very telling that 99% of the people commenting here are men. The list was made for men who ASKED WOMEN what they could do to counteract sexism. It was printed in a zine FOR MEN. So, believe it or not, some men actually are taking this list into account in their struggle to eliminate sexism.
Again, this list was a group effort by women with different experiences, translating their experiences into a set of guidelines to eliminate oppression. If you believe that sexism is a problem, my suggestion would be that you find something on the list that resonates with you and work on it. It's a diverse list, so I'm sure there's something on there you agree with and can do something about.
If you do not believe that sexism is a problem, I can see why this list would seem "strident" - and I doubt anything anyone says on the subject (particularly not a woman) will help you get over that.
But I can guarantee that as long as there are people who think sexism is not a problem...sexism will remain a problem, and there will be a need for activist chicks with "bad" attitudes.
Oh, and if you feel that white men are oppressed, I would encourage you to make your own list.
posted by Drublood at 7:51 AM on September 7, 2002
Again, this list was a group effort by women with different experiences, translating their experiences into a set of guidelines to eliminate oppression. If you believe that sexism is a problem, my suggestion would be that you find something on the list that resonates with you and work on it. It's a diverse list, so I'm sure there's something on there you agree with and can do something about.
If you do not believe that sexism is a problem, I can see why this list would seem "strident" - and I doubt anything anyone says on the subject (particularly not a woman) will help you get over that.
But I can guarantee that as long as there are people who think sexism is not a problem...sexism will remain a problem, and there will be a need for activist chicks with "bad" attitudes.
Oh, and if you feel that white men are oppressed, I would encourage you to make your own list.
posted by Drublood at 7:51 AM on September 7, 2002
Don't just be "not surprised" about our Silent Witness
Realize that our activism is restricted
Don't expect us to wait for you to be comfortable with your oppression of us before we make demands
What a confusing mish-mash of inarticulate, unfocused thoughts. What I cannot figure out is why this list got published in the first place...why not the finished list? If there is one thing that really threw me for a loop it is this:
Women don't want to be represented and referred to as partners of men
My man and I are partners-- that is the great payoff of our relationship. We are united us against the rest of the world. I've got his back and he has mine.
I would love to debate the topic of What Women Want And Is It Reasonable? but first we need to start with the finished list.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:55 AM on September 7, 2002
Realize that our activism is restricted
Don't expect us to wait for you to be comfortable with your oppression of us before we make demands
What a confusing mish-mash of inarticulate, unfocused thoughts. What I cannot figure out is why this list got published in the first place...why not the finished list? If there is one thing that really threw me for a loop it is this:
Women don't want to be represented and referred to as partners of men
My man and I are partners-- that is the great payoff of our relationship. We are united us against the rest of the world. I've got his back and he has mine.
I would love to debate the topic of What Women Want And Is It Reasonable? but first we need to start with the finished list.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:55 AM on September 7, 2002
I don't know that anyone's saying sexism is no problem. Just that this list is all over the place. E.g.
Learn how to have one healthy relationship before having more
What planet would this be applicable on?
posted by robself at 8:04 AM on September 7, 2002
Learn how to have one healthy relationship before having more
What planet would this be applicable on?
posted by robself at 8:04 AM on September 7, 2002
I find it very telling that 99% of the people commenting here are men.
In a list of less than fifty comments, that would mean less than half of one comment was written by a woman. This is not the case. There may be more men than women, but it still seems like a fairly balanced crowd to me.
I agree that the list was pretty meaningless and embarassing. I do sometimes get frustrated by gender issues in my life, but for the most part it's a larger question of getting along with and respecting other human beings. We're all different from one another; gender is just one attribute which can divide us. I often don't fit the gender stereotypes that well anyway, so any list which attempts to separate Us and Them, and make blanket statements about what We do and don't like, isn't gonna work for me.
posted by mdn at 8:16 AM on September 7, 2002
In a list of less than fifty comments, that would mean less than half of one comment was written by a woman. This is not the case. There may be more men than women, but it still seems like a fairly balanced crowd to me.
I agree that the list was pretty meaningless and embarassing. I do sometimes get frustrated by gender issues in my life, but for the most part it's a larger question of getting along with and respecting other human beings. We're all different from one another; gender is just one attribute which can divide us. I often don't fit the gender stereotypes that well anyway, so any list which attempts to separate Us and Them, and make blanket statements about what We do and don't like, isn't gonna work for me.
posted by mdn at 8:16 AM on September 7, 2002
I find it very telling that 99% of the people commenting here are men.
Might I suggest you ask yourself whether it is telling you something or merely providing you with the opportunity to confirm your own prejudices.
The list was made for men who ASKED WOMEN what they could do to counteract sexism.
Precisely. So speaking as a man (or at least a male), even if I've never made that specific request, it seems entirely appropriate and unsurprising that males should respond, however they see fit.
The list is described at the link thus: "These are a list of demands". Demands. Not advice, nor requests nor suggestions.
I find it telling that a group who asked for advice were presented with a list of demands.
posted by Grangousier at 8:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Might I suggest you ask yourself whether it is telling you something or merely providing you with the opportunity to confirm your own prejudices.
The list was made for men who ASKED WOMEN what they could do to counteract sexism.
Precisely. So speaking as a man (or at least a male), even if I've never made that specific request, it seems entirely appropriate and unsurprising that males should respond, however they see fit.
The list is described at the link thus: "These are a list of demands". Demands. Not advice, nor requests nor suggestions.
I find it telling that a group who asked for advice were presented with a list of demands.
posted by Grangousier at 8:18 AM on September 7, 2002
Here are some I know I particularly need to work on:
- Do not sexually objectify us
- Recognize women for all work that is done, even yours
- Take reproductive responsibility
- Don't be egotistical because you're "better" than mainstream guys
- Be more self-sufficient; nurture each other
- Don't act as if you can understand our oppression
- Take part in intimate relationships without sex
- Don't force women to be "nags"
- Be proactive, not reactive
- Don't expect us to wait for you to be comfortable with your oppression of us before we make demands
- Don't force us to take on traditional gender roles
Will somebody pin a non sexist gold-star on sudama, please?
Oppressed women everywhere are sleeping more soundly tonight, dude.
posted by jonmc at 8:58 AM on September 7, 2002
Oppressed women everywhere are sleeping more soundly tonight, dude.
posted by jonmc at 8:58 AM on September 7, 2002
Hear hear, Secret Life of Gravy. Interesting ideas, worthy notion, piss-poor presentation.
However, as Sudama's comment makes clear, there are some men who are finding something useful in this list. So I guess it's not a loss. It's just no way to reach the masses (IMHO).
Will everyone please stop picking on Sudama? It's tiresome and offtopic, and it looks petty. From where I sit he's just trying to contribute to the discussion by providing an example of how this was enlightening to him, rather than offputting. Why is this not valid?
posted by hilatron at 9:04 AM on September 7, 2002
However, as Sudama's comment makes clear, there are some men who are finding something useful in this list. So I guess it's not a loss. It's just no way to reach the masses (IMHO).
Will everyone please stop picking on Sudama? It's tiresome and offtopic, and it looks petty. From where I sit he's just trying to contribute to the discussion by providing an example of how this was enlightening to him, rather than offputting. Why is this not valid?
posted by hilatron at 9:04 AM on September 7, 2002
I know someone asked above, but what the hell is a prop? And why is it mad? PLEASE I'm serious ...
posted by carter at 9:39 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by carter at 9:39 AM on September 7, 2002
mad: crazy, insane, much, many
props: respect, dues, recognition (from proper)
If someone gives you mad props, don't worry - it's not a disease, it's a compliment!
posted by madprops at 10:01 AM on September 7, 2002
props: respect, dues, recognition (from proper)
If someone gives you mad props, don't worry - it's not a disease, it's a compliment!
posted by madprops at 10:01 AM on September 7, 2002
Don't psychoanalysts have a word to describe this phenomenon - when you assign the quality of Otherness to a person or group and then proceed to decorate them with all the blame and responsibility - your own saintliness buoyed up by their increasing demonification?
Heh heh. Thomas Pynchon does something like this very frequently in his novels. Makes for good plots, but not for good interrelations between flesh-and-blood people.
posted by entrope at 10:51 AM on September 7, 2002
Heh heh. Thomas Pynchon does something like this very frequently in his novels. Makes for good plots, but not for good interrelations between flesh-and-blood people.
posted by entrope at 10:51 AM on September 7, 2002
Perhaps I've been listening to too much Le Tigre (although maybe they're the "youth gone wild" I shouldn't mistake for radicals -- damn!), but I didn't mind the screaming incoherence -- screaming incoherence is kind of a blast if you can relax about it a little bit (come on, people; this isn't a UN charter, it's a screed).
But I do offer a special foam-bat-over-the-head to whatever confused soul proffered the following:
Realize that when you're off traveling and train-hopping, women are the ones staying at home and building community
Which A) might have been written by Phyllis Schlafly; and B) must come as a shock to all of those traveling, train-hopping women (shame on them?).
posted by argybarg at 10:54 AM on September 7, 2002
But I do offer a special foam-bat-over-the-head to whatever confused soul proffered the following:
Realize that when you're off traveling and train-hopping, women are the ones staying at home and building community
Which A) might have been written by Phyllis Schlafly; and B) must come as a shock to all of those traveling, train-hopping women (shame on them?).
posted by argybarg at 10:54 AM on September 7, 2002
My man and I are partners-- that is the great payoff of our relationship. We are united us against the rest of the world. I've got his back and he has mine.
Gravy--a big part of the problem with the list is that it's unclear. I interpreted the "don't refer to us as partners" thing as don't refer to women as merely an adjunct to a man. As in he's a doctor, she's his wife. That kind of thing.
Taking the next step with the list would be great.
*wanders off to make a weblog post*
I'll be back.
posted by frykitty at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2002
Gravy--a big part of the problem with the list is that it's unclear. I interpreted the "don't refer to us as partners" thing as don't refer to women as merely an adjunct to a man. As in he's a doctor, she's his wife. That kind of thing.
Taking the next step with the list would be great.
*wanders off to make a weblog post*
I'll be back.
posted by frykitty at 10:57 AM on September 7, 2002
Hey...I'm a traveling woman (not necessarily train-hopping) and I can still relate to that, particularly as it applies to women with young children. I'm convinced that even in my relationship where my husband is responsible for at least half of the childcare (he works from home and I work outside the home and the children stay at home and homeschool) there is a definite difference in how men and women are viewed as parents. And a definite difference in the way the non-parents interact with us.
How can there not be? It's totally ingrained in us from birth!
So, yeah...from my experience, that's how I relate to that one. I didn't write it, but I can TOTALLY relate to it.
posted by Drublood at 11:01 AM on September 7, 2002
How can there not be? It's totally ingrained in us from birth!
So, yeah...from my experience, that's how I relate to that one. I didn't write it, but I can TOTALLY relate to it.
posted by Drublood at 11:01 AM on September 7, 2002
"Don't act as if you can understand our oppression". What does that mean?
Men can't understand why women oppresses men? Men can't understand why women oppresses other women? Men can't understand why they oppress women? Men can't understand why they oppress other men? Men can't understand why women allow themselves to be oppressed by other women? Men can't understand why women allow themselves to be oppressed by men? All of the above?
Why is that? Is the male mind less capable of understanding certain concepts than women?
posted by cx at 11:06 AM on September 7, 2002
Men can't understand why women oppresses men? Men can't understand why women oppresses other women? Men can't understand why they oppress women? Men can't understand why they oppress other men? Men can't understand why women allow themselves to be oppressed by other women? Men can't understand why women allow themselves to be oppressed by men? All of the above?
Why is that? Is the male mind less capable of understanding certain concepts than women?
posted by cx at 11:06 AM on September 7, 2002
It's not that we men have less capable minds, it's just that we don't have vaginas.
posted by Stan Chin at 11:09 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by Stan Chin at 11:09 AM on September 7, 2002
I have but one demand: don't assume this list applies to me just because I have a willy.
posted by walrus at 11:22 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by walrus at 11:22 AM on September 7, 2002
That was the most misandrist thing I've read in a long while.
posted by HTuttle at 11:34 AM on September 7, 2002
posted by HTuttle at 11:34 AM on September 7, 2002
That was the most misandrist thing I've read in a long while.
What the heck is misandrist?
posted by littlegirlblue at 12:04 PM on September 7, 2002
What the heck is misandrist?
posted by littlegirlblue at 12:04 PM on September 7, 2002
One chick's rude, crude and socially unacceptable ranting response. (self link, and I'm afraid I'll be gone till Monday, so further debate from my end will be put off until then)
posted by romakimmy at 12:14 PM on September 7, 2002
posted by romakimmy at 12:14 PM on September 7, 2002
Here's my take on the list. I've tried to take the next step from brainstorming and separate the wheat from the chaff.
Romakimmy: it looks like you dismissed the entire list out of hand. So you're saying that there's nothing that men can do to stop sexism? I certainly ridiculed many things on the list, but some of it has merit. Your response seemed flip.
It's not that we men have less capable minds, it's just that we don't have vaginas.
Sort of. Men can certainly have empathy, but men have no idea what it is to face prejudice for your gender every day. You don't have that experience, any more than I have the experience of being black. I can empathize, but I can't live it from the inside.
posted by frykitty at 12:31 PM on September 7, 2002
Romakimmy: it looks like you dismissed the entire list out of hand. So you're saying that there's nothing that men can do to stop sexism? I certainly ridiculed many things on the list, but some of it has merit. Your response seemed flip.
It's not that we men have less capable minds, it's just that we don't have vaginas.
Sort of. Men can certainly have empathy, but men have no idea what it is to face prejudice for your gender every day. You don't have that experience, any more than I have the experience of being black. I can empathize, but I can't live it from the inside.
posted by frykitty at 12:31 PM on September 7, 2002
What the heck is misandrist?
OED: misandrist n., one who hates men, a man-hater (esp. in feminist usage).
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to apply it to this piece though. There were some good points in there, amongst the dreck.
posted by walrus at 12:36 PM on September 7, 2002
OED: misandrist n., one who hates men, a man-hater (esp. in feminist usage).
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to apply it to this piece though. There were some good points in there, amongst the dreck.
posted by walrus at 12:36 PM on September 7, 2002
Ok, thinking more about this, it seems to me that sexism on an individual scale is only a problem if women make it a problem. I'm sure many people will find that idea offensive, but I think it's true. I'll go a step further, and say that the list, when used at an individual level (which is was obviously intended for) is sexist in and of itself, against women. In many of the items there is an underlying assumption that women are still not entirely free agents. "Don't force women to be 'nags'" is, of course, the main example. Being a "nag" is, like everything, a product of action and perception. If you are with a person that perceives you as acting like a nag, you can change your behavior, or they can change their perception. They are not "forcing you" however, the process is mutual. To say someone is forcing you is to objectify yourself to the point that you are nothing but an automaton being controlled by men.
This also applies for, "Don't force us to take on traditional gender roles" If you do not want to take on traditional roles, then don't. There is no need to tell an individual not to force you, because they cannot force you. Systematic gender discrimination, as well as the role of women in other cultures are other things entirely, examples of this would be wage disparity, institutionalized female circumcision etc. This list does little to nothing to combat these issues however.
Heterosexism is a much more prevalent prejudice in our society (although I would argue less important than sexism as it doesn't effect as many people), but when a person assumes I am straight I do not see that as the person "forcing" me into a traditional gender role. Assuming I am straight no more forces me to be straight than clapping your hands and wishing it true. Likewise people assuming that women will perform traditional roles in no way "forces" them to do so.
on preview: romakimmy mentioned the "force into polyamory" ditto all the arguments above for that. Her blog has a nice play-by-play of the points too.
posted by rhyax at 12:44 PM on September 7, 2002
This also applies for, "Don't force us to take on traditional gender roles" If you do not want to take on traditional roles, then don't. There is no need to tell an individual not to force you, because they cannot force you. Systematic gender discrimination, as well as the role of women in other cultures are other things entirely, examples of this would be wage disparity, institutionalized female circumcision etc. This list does little to nothing to combat these issues however.
Heterosexism is a much more prevalent prejudice in our society (although I would argue less important than sexism as it doesn't effect as many people), but when a person assumes I am straight I do not see that as the person "forcing" me into a traditional gender role. Assuming I am straight no more forces me to be straight than clapping your hands and wishing it true. Likewise people assuming that women will perform traditional roles in no way "forces" them to do so.
on preview: romakimmy mentioned the "force into polyamory" ditto all the arguments above for that. Her blog has a nice play-by-play of the points too.
posted by rhyax at 12:44 PM on September 7, 2002
To elaborate further (sorry: I know I should put it all in one comment, but my mind won't work like that):
I'd much rather see an objective anti-sexism manifesto. If you direct such a list at one sex or the other, then you are being sexist. Our behaviours come on a sliding scale, and to say that one sex is this thing and one sex the other is polarisation. The facts are that we shouldn't treat each other differently because of our sex and we shouldn't assume anything about anyone because of their sex. We all have room for some improvement.
posted by walrus at 12:47 PM on September 7, 2002
I'd much rather see an objective anti-sexism manifesto. If you direct such a list at one sex or the other, then you are being sexist. Our behaviours come on a sliding scale, and to say that one sex is this thing and one sex the other is polarisation. The facts are that we shouldn't treat each other differently because of our sex and we shouldn't assume anything about anyone because of their sex. We all have room for some improvement.
posted by walrus at 12:47 PM on September 7, 2002
sexism on an individual scale is only a problem if women make it a problem
So if my boss calls me "sweetie", asks me to make coffee and clean up the office (even though I'm a web designer), and promotes less qualified men over me, it's only a problem if I make it one?
If you direct such a list at one sex or the other, then you are being sexist.
But the list is about what men can do. There are plenty of lists about what women can do. There are sexist elements to the list, but the focus is a valid one. Just because this is focusing on men doesn't mean the entire responsibility for eradicating sexism falls on their shoulders. This is just one aspect.
posted by frykitty at 12:52 PM on September 7, 2002
So if my boss calls me "sweetie", asks me to make coffee and clean up the office (even though I'm a web designer), and promotes less qualified men over me, it's only a problem if I make it one?
If you direct such a list at one sex or the other, then you are being sexist.
But the list is about what men can do. There are plenty of lists about what women can do. There are sexist elements to the list, but the focus is a valid one. Just because this is focusing on men doesn't mean the entire responsibility for eradicating sexism falls on their shoulders. This is just one aspect.
posted by frykitty at 12:52 PM on September 7, 2002
How men can force women to nag:
Say the female partner (or female roommate, or mother, etc) asks her male counterpart to do something. Let's use "take out the trash because the can is full and smells bad." Assume for this example that household chores are divided evenly and an agreement has been forged prior that trash disposal is the responsibility of the man in this example.
The man takes the trash out.
One week later, the can is so full it won't close, fruit flies are buzzing, and the whole house smells of garbage. Once again, the women has to remind the man to complete his agreed responsibility.
Another week passes and the cycle repeats itself. Since the man in this example has made no effort to take up his end of the bargain without prompting, the woman, who merely wants the man to shoulder his agreed on sense of responsibilities and a house that doesn't smell like a landfill, has been forced to nag (or repeatedly request) to get the job done.
Therefore, a man could be said to force a woman to nag by not taking the initiative to complete tasks that he knows need to be done by someone or are his agreed responsibility without being reminded, prompted, or asked over and over again.
The difficulting addressed by this list item is the choice for women in that situation between nagging (thus being percieved as a harpie or other negative stereotype) or shouldering the additional responsibility herself.
posted by jennyb at 1:05 PM on September 7, 2002
Say the female partner (or female roommate, or mother, etc) asks her male counterpart to do something. Let's use "take out the trash because the can is full and smells bad." Assume for this example that household chores are divided evenly and an agreement has been forged prior that trash disposal is the responsibility of the man in this example.
The man takes the trash out.
One week later, the can is so full it won't close, fruit flies are buzzing, and the whole house smells of garbage. Once again, the women has to remind the man to complete his agreed responsibility.
Another week passes and the cycle repeats itself. Since the man in this example has made no effort to take up his end of the bargain without prompting, the woman, who merely wants the man to shoulder his agreed on sense of responsibilities and a house that doesn't smell like a landfill, has been forced to nag (or repeatedly request) to get the job done.
Therefore, a man could be said to force a woman to nag by not taking the initiative to complete tasks that he knows need to be done by someone or are his agreed responsibility without being reminded, prompted, or asked over and over again.
The difficulting addressed by this list item is the choice for women in that situation between nagging (thus being percieved as a harpie or other negative stereotype) or shouldering the additional responsibility herself.
posted by jennyb at 1:05 PM on September 7, 2002
I would suggest that since the state of the rubbish bin is obviously more of an issue for this woman than this man, the duties have been inappropriately distributed and should be renegotiated. When I was a teen I was "given" the duty of mowing the lawn, which I loathed (even though it only applied during summer months) and had to be repeatedly requested to complete the task, often failing to do it for several weeks at a time. I also acquired my sister's chore which was the ironing - she hated ironing (still does) whereas I enjoyed it and actually found it to be a productive activity in a Zen sort of way - and did it even though it applied all the year round.
The chore of emptying the trash would be better given to the person who has more of an issue with overflowing trash, or the criteria that govern the dispostion of the trash should be defined by the person who is required to do it. Otherwise we have one person being required to work according to the standards of the other, in effect working for that person.
And if the tasks can't be distributed evenly or fairly, that might suggest that there's an issue in that relationship.
And the example you give is not gender specific except in that example, or haven't you ever met tidy men or messy women?
posted by Grangousier at 1:26 PM on September 7, 2002
The chore of emptying the trash would be better given to the person who has more of an issue with overflowing trash, or the criteria that govern the dispostion of the trash should be defined by the person who is required to do it. Otherwise we have one person being required to work according to the standards of the other, in effect working for that person.
And if the tasks can't be distributed evenly or fairly, that might suggest that there's an issue in that relationship.
And the example you give is not gender specific except in that example, or haven't you ever met tidy men or messy women?
posted by Grangousier at 1:26 PM on September 7, 2002
walrus, I'm with you. Or I think I am. =)
Sort of. Men can certainly have empathy, but men have no idea what it is to face prejudice for your gender every day. You don't have that experience, any more than I have the experience of being black. I can empathize, but I can't live it from the inside.
No, you've got that wrong. Oppression is a relationship there is the oppressor and the oppressed, the oppressed have no greater understanding of the nature of the oppression than the oppressor. Saying men, because they oppress women, cannot understand the oppression is bollocks if you don't at the same time propose that women cannot understand the oppression. I appologize if people think I'm being to much of a foucoultian about this, but this really takes the biscuit for me)
So if my boss calls me "sweetie", asks me to make coffee and clean up the office (even though I'm a web designer), and promotes less qualified men over me, it's only a problem if I make it one?
Yes. I suppose your boss is woman, or is that irrellevant?
Or rather; it is only a problem if you let it be one. If you object - as I am sure you do - it stops being oppression, because you are no longer being oppressed. Is it then the woman's fault she's being oppressed? Absolutely not!!! However, both man and woman is living under a discourse that they both reproduce. The way to break out of this discourse, the way to break out of the oppression, is not by defining a new discourse, but to abolish the discourse completely: In other words to stop acting towards other people based on their sex. Should your boss do that? Absolutely. Does this list make you do that? No, no it doesn't. What it does do, however, is gendering. It focuses on men acting towards women instead of focusing on individuals acting towards individuals.
posted by cx at 2:48 PM on September 7, 2002
Sort of. Men can certainly have empathy, but men have no idea what it is to face prejudice for your gender every day. You don't have that experience, any more than I have the experience of being black. I can empathize, but I can't live it from the inside.
No, you've got that wrong. Oppression is a relationship there is the oppressor and the oppressed, the oppressed have no greater understanding of the nature of the oppression than the oppressor. Saying men, because they oppress women, cannot understand the oppression is bollocks if you don't at the same time propose that women cannot understand the oppression. I appologize if people think I'm being to much of a foucoultian about this, but this really takes the biscuit for me)
So if my boss calls me "sweetie", asks me to make coffee and clean up the office (even though I'm a web designer), and promotes less qualified men over me, it's only a problem if I make it one?
Yes. I suppose your boss is woman, or is that irrellevant?
Or rather; it is only a problem if you let it be one. If you object - as I am sure you do - it stops being oppression, because you are no longer being oppressed. Is it then the woman's fault she's being oppressed? Absolutely not!!! However, both man and woman is living under a discourse that they both reproduce. The way to break out of this discourse, the way to break out of the oppression, is not by defining a new discourse, but to abolish the discourse completely: In other words to stop acting towards other people based on their sex. Should your boss do that? Absolutely. Does this list make you do that? No, no it doesn't. What it does do, however, is gendering. It focuses on men acting towards women instead of focusing on individuals acting towards individuals.
posted by cx at 2:48 PM on September 7, 2002
I would suggest that since the state of the rubbish bin is obviously more of an issue for this woman than this man
Yes, this is a big problem in modern relationships, if the evidence of me and my friends is anything to go by. Men simply don't care as much as women about house stuff. They don't notice when the house is dirty, or if they do, they don't connect it with a responsibility to clean. They're not the ones who consider what has to be bought for dinner that night, they're don't notice when toilet paper or cleaning products are running out, they don't care if the bed linen is dirty and they only put washing on when they've literally got nothing left to wear.
I know I'll be accused of generalising and reverse sexism but the evidence is overwhelming. I've never met a woman who says her partner does an equal amount of housework. Show me a man in a relationship who voluntarily gets on his hands a knees and cleans the bathroom floor and I'll show you a statistical freak.
There are a number of reasons for why this is. Men simply don't see cleaning and cooking as their sphere. It really doesn't occur to them that work has to be done every day to keep the house in order. Also men don't think that a dirty house reflects on them the same way women do. Women know that if guests come round and the house is a mess, they'll be the ones seen as unhygenic and lazy, not the man.
A woman's got three choices: nag, let the house get dirty or just get on with it and do it herself. But as long as the man doesn't care and doesn't notice and the woman does, the woman has no bargaining power, so in the end she'll just get on with it.
"Nagging is just complaining that isn't being listened to" - Germaine Greer.
posted by Summer at 2:56 PM on September 7, 2002
Yes, this is a big problem in modern relationships, if the evidence of me and my friends is anything to go by. Men simply don't care as much as women about house stuff. They don't notice when the house is dirty, or if they do, they don't connect it with a responsibility to clean. They're not the ones who consider what has to be bought for dinner that night, they're don't notice when toilet paper or cleaning products are running out, they don't care if the bed linen is dirty and they only put washing on when they've literally got nothing left to wear.
I know I'll be accused of generalising and reverse sexism but the evidence is overwhelming. I've never met a woman who says her partner does an equal amount of housework. Show me a man in a relationship who voluntarily gets on his hands a knees and cleans the bathroom floor and I'll show you a statistical freak.
There are a number of reasons for why this is. Men simply don't see cleaning and cooking as their sphere. It really doesn't occur to them that work has to be done every day to keep the house in order. Also men don't think that a dirty house reflects on them the same way women do. Women know that if guests come round and the house is a mess, they'll be the ones seen as unhygenic and lazy, not the man.
A woman's got three choices: nag, let the house get dirty or just get on with it and do it herself. But as long as the man doesn't care and doesn't notice and the woman does, the woman has no bargaining power, so in the end she'll just get on with it.
"Nagging is just complaining that isn't being listened to" - Germaine Greer.
posted by Summer at 2:56 PM on September 7, 2002
there is a definite difference in how men and women are viewed as parents.
How can there not be? It's totally ingrained in us from birth!
Is there a chance that it's ingrained in us even farther back than that? Could it be nature instead of nurture? Could men and women really be different?
Damn it jeff, take the garbage out.
posted by Mick at 3:01 PM on September 7, 2002
How can there not be? It's totally ingrained in us from birth!
Is there a chance that it's ingrained in us even farther back than that? Could it be nature instead of nurture? Could men and women really be different?
Damn it jeff, take the garbage out.
posted by Mick at 3:01 PM on September 7, 2002
a man could be said to force a woman to nag by not taking the initiative to complete tasks that he knows need to be done by someone or are his agreed responsibility without being reminded, prompted, or asked over and over again.
The difficulting addressed by this list item is the choice for women in that situation between nagging (thus being percieved as a harpie or other negative stereotype) or shouldering the additional responsibility herself.
Or you could take option 3, which is to dump the garbage in his bed (or car, or on his desk or favorite chair - something that you don't have to deal with).
Bet that garbage won't be forgotten again. See? No nagging at all there. :) But then, I've never felt compelled by my gender socialization to be a "nice girl..."
Also, allow me to introduce you to a woman whose man takes on half the housework (and sometimes more, if I'm having a lazy or busy week). But I realize that my sweetie is unusually super-duper in this regard. I think there'd be lots of trouble if he were not, because I hate housework more than anything and would keep an eagle eye out for inequalities, just to weasel out of doing the dishes more than necessary.
posted by hilatron at 3:18 PM on September 7, 2002
The difficulting addressed by this list item is the choice for women in that situation between nagging (thus being percieved as a harpie or other negative stereotype) or shouldering the additional responsibility herself.
Or you could take option 3, which is to dump the garbage in his bed (or car, or on his desk or favorite chair - something that you don't have to deal with).
Bet that garbage won't be forgotten again. See? No nagging at all there. :) But then, I've never felt compelled by my gender socialization to be a "nice girl..."
Also, allow me to introduce you to a woman whose man takes on half the housework (and sometimes more, if I'm having a lazy or busy week). But I realize that my sweetie is unusually super-duper in this regard. I think there'd be lots of trouble if he were not, because I hate housework more than anything and would keep an eagle eye out for inequalities, just to weasel out of doing the dishes more than necessary.
posted by hilatron at 3:18 PM on September 7, 2002
Good one jennyb, I can definitely see how nagging can be perceived in such an instance.
Would you consider my repeated requests of a former female roommate to hold up her end of a housecleaning agreement--namely to dispose of her unique feminine wastes in a manner that didn't make our shared bathroom smell like an abattoir or cause serious plumbing problems--also to be nagging?
I should point out that my end of the bargain forced me to realize what an inaccurate marksman I was, behavior I chose to correct. She chose not to modify her own behavior--despite repeatedrequests nagging, instead telling me that her excretions were (somehow) more "natural" than my own messes.
You did nothing but buttress rhyax's argument that sexism happens on an individual and personal level. And that it cuts both ways.
posted by WolfDaddy at 4:07 PM on September 7, 2002
Would you consider my repeated requests of a former female roommate to hold up her end of a housecleaning agreement--namely to dispose of her unique feminine wastes in a manner that didn't make our shared bathroom smell like an abattoir or cause serious plumbing problems--also to be nagging?
I should point out that my end of the bargain forced me to realize what an inaccurate marksman I was, behavior I chose to correct. She chose not to modify her own behavior--despite repeated
You did nothing but buttress rhyax's argument that sexism happens on an individual and personal level. And that it cuts both ways.
posted by WolfDaddy at 4:07 PM on September 7, 2002
Nature vs. Nurture: There is ABSOLUTELY no way to find out where certain behaviors arise. I know that studies have shown that IN THE WOMB boy babies and girl babies are treated differently.
I do want to stress that men and women ARE very definitely different, and we should not strive to treat men and women the same. In fact, I think that's one of our problems as a society - assuming that marginalized groups must necessarily assimilate into the mainstream to be given equal treatment.
And the idea that sexism only exists on an individual level gives me a hearty gut laugh.
Keep in mind, too, that words often take on different meaning when applied to different sexes. A nagging man brings to mind an entirely different picture to most people than a nagging woman. Likewise with strident. Likewise with aggressive.
Argybarg: I'm not sure if I can help you to get me in my previous comment in 20 words or less. I might consider putting something in my blog.
posted by Drublood at 4:33 PM on September 7, 2002
I do want to stress that men and women ARE very definitely different, and we should not strive to treat men and women the same. In fact, I think that's one of our problems as a society - assuming that marginalized groups must necessarily assimilate into the mainstream to be given equal treatment.
And the idea that sexism only exists on an individual level gives me a hearty gut laugh.
Keep in mind, too, that words often take on different meaning when applied to different sexes. A nagging man brings to mind an entirely different picture to most people than a nagging woman. Likewise with strident. Likewise with aggressive.
Argybarg: I'm not sure if I can help you to get me in my previous comment in 20 words or less. I might consider putting something in my blog.
posted by Drublood at 4:33 PM on September 7, 2002
So if my boss calls me "sweetie", asks me to make coffee and clean up the office (even though I'm a web designer), and promotes less qualified men over me, it's only a problem if I make it one?
Well, as someone stated above you can say no. If this negatively impacts your career however it would no longer be an example of individual sexism, it would be you, the individual, versus the company you work for. If you are forced to do something not agreed to for fear of threats that is coercion, which I would say is much worse than sexism.
Most of these examples about taking out the trash and nagging seem to be more about interpersonal relationships. If someone really feels that they are shouldering more of the responsibility for housecare, and that bothers them a lot, they should be able to discuss this with their partner and come to a satisfactory conclusion. This is off topic now from sexism, but nagging in a normal equal relationship is a failure to communicate. If however your partner thinks that taking out the trash is an priority, but it is a priority meant for the "role of a woman" or some silliness, and the woman doesn't think that, I would wonder why they are partners at all.
on preview:
And the idea that sexism only exists on an individual level gives me a hearty gut laugh.
Well, I didn't really see anyone say that, and since I used the word individual a lot I hope you don't think I was saying that. I think systematic sexism is very real and is a problem not at all caused by the woman experiencing it. Maybe you missed that part of the comment, or maybe you're not talking about me at all, of course. :)
posted by rhyax at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2002
Well, as someone stated above you can say no. If this negatively impacts your career however it would no longer be an example of individual sexism, it would be you, the individual, versus the company you work for. If you are forced to do something not agreed to for fear of threats that is coercion, which I would say is much worse than sexism.
Most of these examples about taking out the trash and nagging seem to be more about interpersonal relationships. If someone really feels that they are shouldering more of the responsibility for housecare, and that bothers them a lot, they should be able to discuss this with their partner and come to a satisfactory conclusion. This is off topic now from sexism, but nagging in a normal equal relationship is a failure to communicate. If however your partner thinks that taking out the trash is an priority, but it is a priority meant for the "role of a woman" or some silliness, and the woman doesn't think that, I would wonder why they are partners at all.
on preview:
And the idea that sexism only exists on an individual level gives me a hearty gut laugh.
Well, I didn't really see anyone say that, and since I used the word individual a lot I hope you don't think I was saying that. I think systematic sexism is very real and is a problem not at all caused by the woman experiencing it. Maybe you missed that part of the comment, or maybe you're not talking about me at all, of course. :)
posted by rhyax at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2002
walrus:>The facts are that we shouldn't treat each other differently because of our sex and we shouldn't assume anything about anyone because of their sex.
I've got to disagree with you most vociferously there. It is possible that I am an unreformed pig, though. It is my tendency in general to respond to 'I'm a victim' with 'Shut the fuck up,' so you can take my disagreement for what it's worth...
>We all have room for some improvement.
Amen,brother sister sibling.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:15 AM on September 8, 2002
I've got to disagree with you most vociferously there. It is possible that I am an unreformed pig, though. It is my tendency in general to respond to 'I'm a victim' with 'Shut the fuck up,' so you can take my disagreement for what it's worth...
>We all have room for some improvement.
Amen,
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:15 AM on September 8, 2002
I think they left this one off the list:
"Lay in a big supply of Midol."
posted by Wet Spot at 6:56 PM on September 8, 2002
"Lay in a big supply of Midol."
posted by Wet Spot at 6:56 PM on September 8, 2002
Don't make excuses for your sexism, deal with it
Because, you know, all men are sexist.
Oops, was that sexist?
posted by hurkle at 1:42 PM on September 9, 2002
Because, you know, all men are sexist.
Oops, was that sexist?
posted by hurkle at 1:42 PM on September 9, 2002
It is not PC to refer to the penis-challenged as "women." The preferred term is "gyno-American."
posted by Wet Spot at 2:20 PM on September 9, 2002
posted by Wet Spot at 2:20 PM on September 9, 2002
I think they left this one off the list:
"Lay in a big supply of Midol."
That's truly pathetic.
posted by Summer at 4:30 PM on September 9, 2002
"Lay in a big supply of Midol."
That's truly pathetic.
posted by Summer at 4:30 PM on September 9, 2002
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