“...mourning the loss of yet more games that will soon be lost to time,”
February 4, 2023 1:35 PM Subscribe
The Live-Service Game Bubble Looks Ready To Burst [Gamespot]
• EA and Meta weren’t the only companies to ax games this week [The Verge]
“Fortnite is several weeks into the first season of its fourth chapter. In real time, it's been going strong since the summer of 2017, and though Epic doesn't share player counts, by any available metric it seems to still be doing incredibly well. But in the live-service world, Fortnite's success feels increasingly rare. While there do exist other major successes in the pocket of the games industry where studios operate one game for years on end, many others are closing their proverbial doors for good, which is extremely scary both for players worried about gaming history and future developers concerned with the trends they may be tasked with chasing. Can live-service games survive modest successes, or must they all be as massive as Fortnite to make it?”Amid a host of live-service games announcing their shutdowns, it's starting to feel like there's no safe middle ground between Fortnite and foreclosed.
• EA and Meta weren’t the only companies to ax games this week [The Verge]
“Over the course of this week, the developers of several major live service titles announced that their games would be shutting down. That means that players who actively enjoyed those games — and possibly spent money on them — might have to move on to something else. The shutdowns are a reminder of the challenges facing these ambitious online titles. If they don’t quickly become massive hits, they might be closed down before they really have time to find their footing. Any new entrants have to fight an uphill battle to compete against juggernauts like Destiny 2, Call of Duty: Warzone, and Fortnite. That means, for many of these newer games, they’re stuck in a chicken-and-egg situation: they need players to become a hit, but players may not want to jump in given the glut of other options available.”• In Live Service, It’s All or Nothing [The Escapist]
“As much as we rail about the overuse of live-service games, lately I’ve been questioning what happens to these projects when they’re shut down. People put years of work into these titles, regardless of their quality, and if they fail to catch on after release, they’re often just shut down and delisted, never to be heard from again. Rumbleverse, Knockout City, Marvel’s Avengers, Echo VR, CrossfireX… these are all just from the past few weeks, and the list goes on with live-service games that have come and gone, with years’ worth of work just thrown away and forgotten about. And that’s not to mention the high-profile games like Anthem that have come and gone in the past. While I’m sure a lot of people are more than happy to see these games fail, I’ve often felt that many of these projects have at least an interesting foundation or mechanics that could be utilized elsewhere. It seems a bit crazy to me how willing companies are to just throw away years of work rather than repurposing what’s done into something new.”• It’s OK If A Game Wraps Up, They Don’t All Have To Be Fortnite [Kotaku]
“Now, to be clear, online games shutting servers down after only a year or two is terrible and should be criticized. (I’m looking at Epic and its recent shutdown of Rumbleverse.) But beyond that, I just don’t think it’s needed or healthy for the game industry to become focused only on creating “service”-oriented Fortnites and Rainbow Six Sieges. Not every game—even multiplayer games—needs to be updated endlessly for years and years. This would also mean fewer games would need to be pumped full of in-game stores or cosmetic skins to help offset years of never-ending development. [...] Look, I love a good live-service game. I play Destiny 2 all the time. It’s awesome having a game that grows and expands over time. However, not all of my games need to do this. Surprise-hit musical action platformer Hi-Fi Rush is awesome and if it never gets any DLC or expansions, it will still be awesome. This constant hunger for content isn’t what we need right now and it would really help if more people were okay with games not going on forever.”
Wondering what a live service game is?
posted by zamboni at 1:51 PM on February 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
This feels like a repeat of what happened with MMO's back in the day. Every studio saw World of Warcraft's massive success and said, "we can do that!" instead of realizing WoW basically controlled the whole MMO market. Most MMO players were already committed to WoW, they didn't have enough time and money to play multiple MMO games, and so all of the also-rans had to fight over WoW's scraps. It wasn't until almost ten years later that there was a real contender in the market, with Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn.
Like a lot of investors in general, big game studios seem to be intent on chasing the dragon of big profits instead of taking smaller, safer bets that are more likely to pay off. Share Enix has been especially bad about this recently. It's really frustrating how they botched a slam-dunk like Marvel's Avengers, which had absolutely no need to be a live service game. They could have just made a simple AAA co-op action game in the vein of Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, and it would have been awesome. Instead, they compromised the entire gameplay loop to cram in a bunch of live service junk to try and force people to buy fake currency or endlessly replay the same levels... and the game flopped, hard.
There's a similar story with Babylon's Fall. Platinum Games had turned out amazing single-player game after amazing single-player game... And then Square Enix shot for the moon and hired them to make a live-service coop game. It got terrible reviews. The player count peaked at barely over 1,000 concurrent players on steam, and got as low as a single player online within just a few months. In six months, the whole thing was scrapped, which almost no one seemed to be disappointed by. It's only a slightly less depressing fate for a beloved game studio than Konami... which turned franchises like Castlevania and Metal Gear Solid into pachinko machines and predatory mobile games.
Hopefully the latest wave of failures convince game developers to stop chasing that dragon... but it's more likely they just find another dragon to chase. Hell, just a few months ago, Square Enix sold off the rights to Tomb Raider, one of their biggest franchises, to invest more into NFT games... right as the crypto market crashed.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:55 PM on February 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
Like a lot of investors in general, big game studios seem to be intent on chasing the dragon of big profits instead of taking smaller, safer bets that are more likely to pay off. Share Enix has been especially bad about this recently. It's really frustrating how they botched a slam-dunk like Marvel's Avengers, which had absolutely no need to be a live service game. They could have just made a simple AAA co-op action game in the vein of Marvel: Ultimate Alliance, and it would have been awesome. Instead, they compromised the entire gameplay loop to cram in a bunch of live service junk to try and force people to buy fake currency or endlessly replay the same levels... and the game flopped, hard.
There's a similar story with Babylon's Fall. Platinum Games had turned out amazing single-player game after amazing single-player game... And then Square Enix shot for the moon and hired them to make a live-service coop game. It got terrible reviews. The player count peaked at barely over 1,000 concurrent players on steam, and got as low as a single player online within just a few months. In six months, the whole thing was scrapped, which almost no one seemed to be disappointed by. It's only a slightly less depressing fate for a beloved game studio than Konami... which turned franchises like Castlevania and Metal Gear Solid into pachinko machines and predatory mobile games.
Hopefully the latest wave of failures convince game developers to stop chasing that dragon... but it's more likely they just find another dragon to chase. Hell, just a few months ago, Square Enix sold off the rights to Tomb Raider, one of their biggest franchises, to invest more into NFT games... right as the crypto market crashed.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 1:55 PM on February 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
One of the problems I have with a lot of live service games is their push to keep the player numbers up. You need to do your daily tasks if you want to keep up on the progress treadmill. And once you reach the top, you start all over again. That's why I dropped DC Universe Online and Genshin Impact. They wanted too much of my time. I still play Warframe, but most missions take less than 5 minutes, so I can just hop in and out, or skip a couple of days without the game trying to make me feel guilty.
There's also a ton of single player content out there for free, or at least cheap. I did the itch.io bundles for Ukraine and Texas Trans Youth last year. I now have a ton of games and visual novels that I'm slowly going through. I know people who buy humble bundles, and trade steam keys for duplicates (or just give them away). And Epic gives away one or two games a week.
With this embarrassment of riches, I have a hard time being excited over games which are trying to milk me for money slowly over time, usually with lootboxes.
posted by Spike Glee at 2:15 PM on February 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's also a ton of single player content out there for free, or at least cheap. I did the itch.io bundles for Ukraine and Texas Trans Youth last year. I now have a ton of games and visual novels that I'm slowly going through. I know people who buy humble bundles, and trade steam keys for duplicates (or just give them away). And Epic gives away one or two games a week.
With this embarrassment of riches, I have a hard time being excited over games which are trying to milk me for money slowly over time, usually with lootboxes.
posted by Spike Glee at 2:15 PM on February 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Hell is other people"
One more reason to have an .exe on my drive that will be there so long as bitrot doesn't take it. I guess I am old enough that "computer game" has just always meant to me hours and hours piddling on my own. Why would I want other people around fucking up my shit? And why would I want my playtime to be contingent on an Internet connection, and even moreso on an ongoing financial commitment? Fuck that. SC4, Generals: Zero Hour, all kinds of stuff from 15+ years ago I still enjoy from time to time.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:26 PM on February 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
One more reason to have an .exe on my drive that will be there so long as bitrot doesn't take it. I guess I am old enough that "computer game" has just always meant to me hours and hours piddling on my own. Why would I want other people around fucking up my shit? And why would I want my playtime to be contingent on an Internet connection, and even moreso on an ongoing financial commitment? Fuck that. SC4, Generals: Zero Hour, all kinds of stuff from 15+ years ago I still enjoy from time to time.
posted by Meatbomb at 2:26 PM on February 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
Same, Meatbomb. But thanks to this post, I finally understand the business model in the TV show Mythic Quest! Thanks Fizz.
posted by happyfrog at 2:30 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by happyfrog at 2:30 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
It sucks at the content mill. Development never ends, it's always crunch time. There's no union. Then there's all the sacrifices that art makes in service of commercialism. And if the players don't come, and they don't stay, and they don't pay, you're out of work.
The players resent it too. Daily tasks! Every fucking day? The grinding, the treadmill. The leering over your piggy bank.
It seems like the only people having fun are the greedy bastards.
posted by adept256 at 3:44 PM on February 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
The players resent it too. Daily tasks! Every fucking day? The grinding, the treadmill. The leering over your piggy bank.
It seems like the only people having fun are the greedy bastards.
posted by adept256 at 3:44 PM on February 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
ways to monetize video games
...Yeah, that's the problem right there. I hate what the idea did to Overwatch. Now instead of being able to earn all the dumb cosmetic items by playing the game, they want people to buy a battle pass every two months, or just pay for things outright. But then I hated $27 hats in TF2 too.
posted by zompist at 4:02 PM on February 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
...Yeah, that's the problem right there. I hate what the idea did to Overwatch. Now instead of being able to earn all the dumb cosmetic items by playing the game, they want people to buy a battle pass every two months, or just pay for things outright. But then I hated $27 hats in TF2 too.
posted by zompist at 4:02 PM on February 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Square Enix sold off the rights to Tomb Raider, one of their biggest franchises, to invest more into NFT games... right as the crypto market crashed.
The deal included the Legacy of Kain franchise, which hasn't had a game in twenty fucking years. Squatting on that IP and doing nothing with it was super shitty of Square Enix.
posted by adept256 at 4:24 PM on February 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
The deal included the Legacy of Kain franchise, which hasn't had a game in twenty fucking years. Squatting on that IP and doing nothing with it was super shitty of Square Enix.
posted by adept256 at 4:24 PM on February 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Like, maybe if Raziel had famous boobs they would have funded it? No, let's do Tomb Raider again. Inhale their souls to power the reaver.
posted by adept256 at 4:28 PM on February 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 4:28 PM on February 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Something that hasn't been discussed nearly enough is the fact that Epic recently shuttered the servers for several old games---including Unreal Tournament (!!!)---in addition to removing them from storefronts. It is no longer possible to legally obtain a copy of Unreal (outside of the secondhand market).
posted by nosewings at 4:33 PM on February 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by nosewings at 4:33 PM on February 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Warframe needs to be the model. It's one of the top revenue earners on Steam, but it does it without (paid) lootboxes, battlepasses, or a required subscription (everything a subscription gets you can be accessed in the game, just with more grinding, and it actually exploits the psychology of gambling in such a way that many people find it much more fun and enticing to grind for free than to just click a button to pay for the item). Digital Extremes is also known for having excellent salary, benefits, and work-life balance and declining to participate in the "crunch" model. They've been going strong since 2013. They aren't on the level of Fortnite but that's because everything I've seen suggests they aren't focused on growth and profits, just on making a good game with a community they love.
They do keep costs low by not using central servers, and I don't know how feasible that is for every live service game, but the few issues it causes in gameplay are more than worth it IMHO.
posted by brook horse at 5:04 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
They do keep costs low by not using central servers, and I don't know how feasible that is for every live service game, but the few issues it causes in gameplay are more than worth it IMHO.
posted by brook horse at 5:04 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Indeed, if you're lamenting the demise of Unreal Tournament, that was a Digital Extremes game. They're all working on Warframe now. A very different game, of course. I haven't played for a few years now, but I did have fun. I found a map I could solo as Ember and just AoE firebomb for hands-free grinding. It felt like cheating. Sometimes people would drop in and start chasing mobs, I'm just there hovering in the lotus position. I'd tell them to relax and chill with me, the firebombs would take care of the mobs.
They've probably fixed that by now.
posted by adept256 at 5:16 PM on February 4, 2023
They've probably fixed that by now.
posted by adept256 at 5:16 PM on February 4, 2023
They've probably fixed that by now.
I asked my Warframe veteran partner and they said "they toned it down but it's still a viable strategy for midlevel grinding," so, there you go!
posted by brook horse at 5:22 PM on February 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I asked my Warframe veteran partner and they said "they toned it down but it's still a viable strategy for midlevel grinding," so, there you go!
posted by brook horse at 5:22 PM on February 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
They've probably fixed that by now.
I still play Warframe quite a bit. I'd say if anything, there's more "murder everything with one button" strats than ever.
That's what you get when the developers prioritize fun over competitive balancing. It's all co-op, so no one cares if you're overpowered.
I want to work for Digital Extremes SO BAD.
posted by Laura Palmer's Cold Dead Kiss at 6:55 PM on February 4, 2023
I still play Warframe quite a bit. I'd say if anything, there's more "murder everything with one button" strats than ever.
That's what you get when the developers prioritize fun over competitive balancing. It's all co-op, so no one cares if you're overpowered.
I want to work for Digital Extremes SO BAD.
posted by Laura Palmer's Cold Dead Kiss at 6:55 PM on February 4, 2023
It wasn't until almost ten years later that there was a real contender in the market, with Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn.
FFXIV was decidedly an also-ran until Heavensward. The first real contender was Guild Wars 2, which managed to be influential just from its beta test. Unfortunately it stumbled on figuring out its post-launch support, doubling down on frequent releases of often broken content that was removed when the next stuff was added, which made it difficult to grow the playerbase.
The deal included the Legacy of Kain franchise, which hasn't had a game in twenty fucking years.
There actually was one in 2014 but you won't like to hear that it was also a live service games, Nosgoth.
posted by Merus at 7:18 PM on February 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
FFXIV was decidedly an also-ran until Heavensward. The first real contender was Guild Wars 2, which managed to be influential just from its beta test. Unfortunately it stumbled on figuring out its post-launch support, doubling down on frequent releases of often broken content that was removed when the next stuff was added, which made it difficult to grow the playerbase.
The deal included the Legacy of Kain franchise, which hasn't had a game in twenty fucking years.
There actually was one in 2014 but you won't like to hear that it was also a live service games, Nosgoth.
posted by Merus at 7:18 PM on February 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of the issues here is that Live Service/GaaS games really reward large investments of time. And often they tie time to actual real dollars. By example, Fortnite has a battle pass- You pay them ~7 bucks and everytime you play a round or complete a quest you get points. You can redeem points for all kinds of stuff- New characters, songs, emotes etc.
The real issue is that the Battle Pass is only good until the end of the Fortnite Season. Seasons are usually 3-4 months long. At the end of the season, you'll need to cough up another $7 bucks.
This means that if you've paid for a battlepass, playing Fortnite is literally more valuable than playing anything else. This games encourage devotion and commitment even beyond being addictive/enjoyable in their own right. Point being: Most folks only have the energy for a single commitment, since having more than one reduces the value of your investment. Viewed in that way, its not so weird that GaaS can only support a few behemoths.
posted by GilloD at 7:56 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The real issue is that the Battle Pass is only good until the end of the Fortnite Season. Seasons are usually 3-4 months long. At the end of the season, you'll need to cough up another $7 bucks.
This means that if you've paid for a battlepass, playing Fortnite is literally more valuable than playing anything else. This games encourage devotion and commitment even beyond being addictive/enjoyable in their own right. Point being: Most folks only have the energy for a single commitment, since having more than one reduces the value of your investment. Viewed in that way, its not so weird that GaaS can only support a few behemoths.
posted by GilloD at 7:56 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not to continue to shill for Warframe but that just made me realize that Prime Access is “pay us money so you can play the game less.” It gives you items that otherwise you have to spend a number of hours in-game to get. So the opposite of what you’re describing.
It’s fascinating that this seems to work so well as a model. I wonder if it captures an entirely different audience of people (those short on time but with cash to spare) or if people in general would prefer that set-up to the “pay us money so that you can play the game more.”
posted by brook horse at 8:23 PM on February 4, 2023
It’s fascinating that this seems to work so well as a model. I wonder if it captures an entirely different audience of people (those short on time but with cash to spare) or if people in general would prefer that set-up to the “pay us money so that you can play the game more.”
posted by brook horse at 8:23 PM on February 4, 2023
That gets at my abiding frustration with basically all games operating on a live service model: there's not just the core design sin of compromising the actual fun and mechanical strength of a game to insert longevity and grind, but the fact that in a lot of cases the upsell of paid bonuses in the game comes down to "for $x we will let you see a clearer picture of the game we were actually going to make except we wanted money". Double whammy of making an intentionally worse game experience in the name of profits, and then offering to take more cash in exchange for clawing back a pittance of what could have been.
posted by cortex at 9:29 PM on February 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by cortex at 9:29 PM on February 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I deeply resent Destiny for being GaaS. What an incredible single player scifi epic that setting could have been. Instead its GRRM style dropped plot points and an ever expanding skybox of pretty locations, tantalizing scifi greebles, and zero closure.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:35 PM on February 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 9:35 PM on February 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
(And, I mean, there are odd exceptions: Rocket League is a game whose core gameplay experience has been shockingly untouched by the vicissitudes of a live-service model and a move to freemium. A round of RL is the same pure sweet car soccer it always was, with no intrusive fuckery spoiling it. You're as good as it as you actually are, and you aren't punished in any meaningful way for not laying out for DLC or battle pass or whatever. But for every Rocket League there's a dozen Fallout 76s where a solid, established game model gets fucked in a bunch of little frustrating ways to make that round peg fit the nice square monetizable hole of an MMO model. Not because it makes the game better; it's demonstrably worse at being a Fallout game in most ways that matter to people who like the mainline games.)
posted by cortex at 9:37 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex at 9:37 PM on February 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
This feels like a repeat of what happened with MMO's back in the day. Every studio saw World of Warcraft's massive success and said, "we can do that!" instead of realizing WoW basically controlled the whole MMO market. Most MMO players were already committed to WoW, they didn't have enough time and money to play multiple MMO games, and so all of the also-rans had to fight over WoW's scraps. It wasn't until almost ten years later that there was a real contender in the market, with Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn.
Of course, part of the problem there is that WoW is designed to invoke things like FOMO to hoover up player attention - ABK wants you to just be playing WoW, and the game is full of design choices to push that. As I said in another recent thread, part of why the player base has a lot of respect for the FFXIV dev team and the game's producer in particular is because they believe it is healthy for the player base to "touch grass", so to speak and go play other games - even other MMOs. (It blew people's minds recently when Yoshida publicly talked up the upcoming MMO Blue Protocol - it really shouldn't have been given his past statements on playing other games as well as the fact the new MMO has a number of his former staff developing it.)
It should come as no surprise either that a lot of toxicity in WoW is tied up in those mechanisms as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:37 PM on February 4, 2023
Of course, part of the problem there is that WoW is designed to invoke things like FOMO to hoover up player attention - ABK wants you to just be playing WoW, and the game is full of design choices to push that. As I said in another recent thread, part of why the player base has a lot of respect for the FFXIV dev team and the game's producer in particular is because they believe it is healthy for the player base to "touch grass", so to speak and go play other games - even other MMOs. (It blew people's minds recently when Yoshida publicly talked up the upcoming MMO Blue Protocol - it really shouldn't have been given his past statements on playing other games as well as the fact the new MMO has a number of his former staff developing it.)
It should come as no surprise either that a lot of toxicity in WoW is tied up in those mechanisms as well.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:37 PM on February 4, 2023
Double whammy of making an intentionally worse game experience in the name of profits, and then offering to take more cash in exchange for clawing back a pittance of what could have been.
So, are you going to pay $70 for a title? Because I'm reminded of the sorts of discussions about ads at theaters back when I worked in one - everyone loved to complain about how there were all these ads before movies. But the thing was, the trade mags asked the question that mattered - are you willing to pay $1-2 extra to not have ads? And the answer was a very clear no.
Now, I will point out that yes, corporate greed is part of this as well. But I don't think it's the whole story, either - especially given that we've seen gamers abuse Steam's refund policies so badly that it forced an indie developer out of the business because they had the temerity to make a game experience that wrapped up within that window. So yes, publishers need to be a lot less greedy - but on the other hand, gamers need to also accept that if we want nice things, we do need to pay for them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:50 PM on February 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
So, are you going to pay $70 for a title? Because I'm reminded of the sorts of discussions about ads at theaters back when I worked in one - everyone loved to complain about how there were all these ads before movies. But the thing was, the trade mags asked the question that mattered - are you willing to pay $1-2 extra to not have ads? And the answer was a very clear no.
Now, I will point out that yes, corporate greed is part of this as well. But I don't think it's the whole story, either - especially given that we've seen gamers abuse Steam's refund policies so badly that it forced an indie developer out of the business because they had the temerity to make a game experience that wrapped up within that window. So yes, publishers need to be a lot less greedy - but on the other hand, gamers need to also accept that if we want nice things, we do need to pay for them.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:50 PM on February 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another nice thing about Warframe is that they're willing to wait until it's ready to release content. The "next" big piece of story content is Divuri Paradox, which they teased 4 years ago. When will it be released? Hopefully this year, but DE isn't making any promises, other than that they're working on it.
The other online games I've seen have to hit their mark, regardless of the state it's in. Occasionally I'll see a release be delayed, and the users have been generally OK with that, but management seems to still prefer hitting their dates and dealing with the fallout later.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:12 PM on February 4, 2023
The other online games I've seen have to hit their mark, regardless of the state it's in. Occasionally I'll see a release be delayed, and the users have been generally OK with that, but management seems to still prefer hitting their dates and dealing with the fallout later.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:12 PM on February 4, 2023
And the answer was a very clear no.
Seconding this. I love the concept of Elden Ring, Final Fantasy VII Remake, The Last of Us, and I'm glad those games exist. I might even watch some of the gameplay on YouTube. But I'm not going to pay A$90 for something I might not even like, when there's so much free stuff to try out.
Even World of Warcraft needs you to play A$20 per month plus buy the latest expansion for A$50. I'll just play Lost Ark instead, which is free.
There are just so many incredible free games in every genre. It's also easier to rope multiple friends into trying out a new game together if it's free. Genshin Impact, League of Legends, Hearthstone, the list goes on. I could not in good conscience rope someone into paying $100 to start playing a game with me when I couldn't even guarantee that I am going to be still playing it next month, maybe I end up not liking the game.
posted by xdvesper at 10:14 PM on February 4, 2023
Seconding this. I love the concept of Elden Ring, Final Fantasy VII Remake, The Last of Us, and I'm glad those games exist. I might even watch some of the gameplay on YouTube. But I'm not going to pay A$90 for something I might not even like, when there's so much free stuff to try out.
Even World of Warcraft needs you to play A$20 per month plus buy the latest expansion for A$50. I'll just play Lost Ark instead, which is free.
There are just so many incredible free games in every genre. It's also easier to rope multiple friends into trying out a new game together if it's free. Genshin Impact, League of Legends, Hearthstone, the list goes on. I could not in good conscience rope someone into paying $100 to start playing a game with me when I couldn't even guarantee that I am going to be still playing it next month, maybe I end up not liking the game.
posted by xdvesper at 10:14 PM on February 4, 2023
A$100 is a week of groceries. The ramen crowd arrrren't going to pay that.
posted by adept256 at 12:05 AM on February 5, 2023
posted by adept256 at 12:05 AM on February 5, 2023
I used to play a flight combat simulator that cost $15 a month, played for several years, played it in its heyday till the player population started to shrink, till tumbleweeds would blow through the sandbox except for an hour a day. I'm still paying $15 a month because I feel like I got more out of it than I paid for it. Been a few years. It is hard to imagine there aren't at least a couple hundred people like me in the entire world but I guess not. What is weird is that when I stopped it was as if a switch had flipped, I had no desire to play, at all.
posted by Pembquist at 12:08 AM on February 5, 2023
posted by Pembquist at 12:08 AM on February 5, 2023
Seconding this. I love the concept of Elden Ring, Final Fantasy VII Remake, The Last of Us, and I'm glad those games exist. I might even watch some of the gameplay on YouTube. But I'm not going to pay A$90 for something I might not even like, when there's so much free stuff to try out.
I think, for me, I don't really have a lot of appetite for 'free' games. I find 95% of them gravitate towards a few models that are proven to be most effective at converting users to customers, and the remainder are either a) games that are free because the creator isn't interested in making a living off it, or b) games with very generous free trials, whose business model is such that they can carve off whole chunks of game that used to be paid because the costs have been recouped. Among the larger majority you find free-to-play games like Warframe and Path of Exile, which are both very complicated games as a result of the live service, but joke's on you I'm into that shit, and I don't entirely understand how they manage to make money.
But then, I'm in the apparent minority who would pay an extra buck for an ad-free movie experience.
posted by Merus at 1:48 AM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think, for me, I don't really have a lot of appetite for 'free' games. I find 95% of them gravitate towards a few models that are proven to be most effective at converting users to customers, and the remainder are either a) games that are free because the creator isn't interested in making a living off it, or b) games with very generous free trials, whose business model is such that they can carve off whole chunks of game that used to be paid because the costs have been recouped. Among the larger majority you find free-to-play games like Warframe and Path of Exile, which are both very complicated games as a result of the live service, but joke's on you I'm into that shit, and I don't entirely understand how they manage to make money.
But then, I'm in the apparent minority who would pay an extra buck for an ad-free movie experience.
posted by Merus at 1:48 AM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are just so many incredible free games in every genre.
That’s not my experience at all. There are good free games of certain kinds of genres, mostly multiplayer games and some grindy stuff. And a lot of them have rather annoying monetization. There are very few good free single player games with stories that actually go anywhere. What is the good free alternative to Elden Ring?
At least on PC you fortunately have the option to play a bit behind the release curve and game for very cheap. For example, Disco Elysium is currently 10€ on GoG. That’s an amazing deal for another game that has no good free competitors that I know of.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 2:11 AM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
That’s not my experience at all. There are good free games of certain kinds of genres, mostly multiplayer games and some grindy stuff. And a lot of them have rather annoying monetization. There are very few good free single player games with stories that actually go anywhere. What is the good free alternative to Elden Ring?
At least on PC you fortunately have the option to play a bit behind the release curve and game for very cheap. For example, Disco Elysium is currently 10€ on GoG. That’s an amazing deal for another game that has no good free competitors that I know of.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 2:11 AM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
What is the good free alternative to Elden Ring?
Genshin Impact is a gigantic single player narrative / exploration / puzzle / combat driven game that can be easily (even, best) completed using your starter character, for free. The storylines and characters and world building is incredible, people are so drawn into it that most of the posts on the subreddit are fan art and cosplays.
Of course, no game is EXACTLY like another game, but from my point of view - the sheer visual scale of world building, the fluidity and joy of the combat system, down to the personal character arcs - it just works for me.
The Scaramouche storyline has been the best villain redemption arcs I've come across. You meet him for the first time in 2020 and he's a stone cold killer who is definitely a bad guy. You find out more about his origin in the second expansion in 2021 - that he was an experimental, artificial construct created by the Electro Archon in Inazuma. Her intention was to eventually create a construct for herself - an artificial God - so she could retire to another plane of universe in solitude and leave the running of the kingdom to her construct. She didn't have the heart to kill her experiment, so he lived forgotten in the palace for hundreds of years, eventually leaving to explore the world. First abandoned by his creator, then experiencing betrayal and cruelty at the hands of other humans, he was later recruited and given purpose by the Fatui - a ruthless organization furthering the designs of the Tsaritsa, the Cryo Archon.
The Fatui are stealing / obtaining the Gnoses of each of the Archons for the Tsaritsa. Every nation has an Archon leading them, and each Archon has a Gnosis, the symbol of their power and authority. Scaramouche obtains the Gnosis from the Electro Archon, but instead of turning it over to the Fatui, he disappears. There is a plot to turn Scaramouche's body into the incarnation of the Dendro Archon in Sumeru. The plot is led by the Sumeru scholars who want their Archon back, and also by Dottore, a mad scientist from the Fatui, whose true intentions are unknown. After all, Scaramouche's artificial body was meant to be the prototype for the Electro Archon's physical body, and he accepts his part in this, because it would allow him to gain the power of a God and allow him to get revenge on those who betrayed him.
You (The Traveler) defeat him, and then Nahida (sort of a spiritual echo of the Dendro Archon, though not quite) hides him and helps him recover. Scaramouche realises he has no more allies since the Fatui think he's betrayed them - so he makes a deal with Nahida - that he will delve into Irminsul to search for the answers that the Traveler seeks. Irminsul is a sort of "world tree" connected to all the ley-lines in the world, serving as a record of all knowledge in the world, and only Archons have the ability to access it.
Scaramouche enters the Irminsul and discovers the truth about his origin - the "betrayal" he experienced was orchestrated by Dottore all along. He begins to regret all the people he killed as part of his vengeance plot, all the suffering he caused, and most of all, the fact that all the suffering and bitterness he endured over hundreds of years was pointless in the end.
So the trick with Irminsul is that it's not just a record of the world, it IS the world as well - think of it like the data repository of an MMOPRG. He uses his powers in Irminsul to erase himself, and he expects that history and reality would be altered, that he would have never existed, and all the pain he caused would never happen and the lives he ended would be restored.
It turns out that's not how it works, the consequences of what he did were still in the world, but no one remembers who he is or what he did, and the "causality" of those events were severed. Instead of a person being murdered by him, people just remember that they died of a random accident.
Scaramouche still exists in the world, but he has no memory of who he was before. He starts as a blank slate, and spends his time wandering the world, helping other people and doing good. Later on, the Traveler meets him - and the Traveler, being from another world, and not having a connection to Irminsul, is the only one who can remember who he is. You bring him to Nahida, and you explain that you know reality has been altered, but you're not sure how or why, or whether Scaramouche should know the truth about himself.
Scaramouche says that he wants to know his past - if he did indeed do evil things, then it is only right that he know about it to atone for it, rather than living freely ignorant of his evil deeds. Nahida shows him a parable or myth that was recorded, written in an allegorical form with very indirect references, that would survive the reality edit that Scaramouche did to himself, because Irminsul would not have known to erase it as well.
The entire emotional story - the pain of abandonment and betrayal, the rage against the world, then rage against a lifetime of pointless suffering, then that rage turned inwards - into the ultimate act of self destruction, a suicide so complete it erases your existence from the world itself and from everyone who ever knew you - and then the completion of the arc, where a "good" Scaramouche willingly takes on the burden of knowledge of his crimes so he can spend his lifetime atoning for it - it's just astonishing. Holy moly. And that's just one out of dozens of characters in the game, with intersecting stories.
posted by xdvesper at 3:22 AM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Genshin Impact is a gigantic single player narrative / exploration / puzzle / combat driven game that can be easily (even, best) completed using your starter character, for free. The storylines and characters and world building is incredible, people are so drawn into it that most of the posts on the subreddit are fan art and cosplays.
Of course, no game is EXACTLY like another game, but from my point of view - the sheer visual scale of world building, the fluidity and joy of the combat system, down to the personal character arcs - it just works for me.
The Scaramouche storyline has been the best villain redemption arcs I've come across. You meet him for the first time in 2020 and he's a stone cold killer who is definitely a bad guy. You find out more about his origin in the second expansion in 2021 - that he was an experimental, artificial construct created by the Electro Archon in Inazuma. Her intention was to eventually create a construct for herself - an artificial God - so she could retire to another plane of universe in solitude and leave the running of the kingdom to her construct. She didn't have the heart to kill her experiment, so he lived forgotten in the palace for hundreds of years, eventually leaving to explore the world. First abandoned by his creator, then experiencing betrayal and cruelty at the hands of other humans, he was later recruited and given purpose by the Fatui - a ruthless organization furthering the designs of the Tsaritsa, the Cryo Archon.
The Fatui are stealing / obtaining the Gnoses of each of the Archons for the Tsaritsa. Every nation has an Archon leading them, and each Archon has a Gnosis, the symbol of their power and authority. Scaramouche obtains the Gnosis from the Electro Archon, but instead of turning it over to the Fatui, he disappears. There is a plot to turn Scaramouche's body into the incarnation of the Dendro Archon in Sumeru. The plot is led by the Sumeru scholars who want their Archon back, and also by Dottore, a mad scientist from the Fatui, whose true intentions are unknown. After all, Scaramouche's artificial body was meant to be the prototype for the Electro Archon's physical body, and he accepts his part in this, because it would allow him to gain the power of a God and allow him to get revenge on those who betrayed him.
You (The Traveler) defeat him, and then Nahida (sort of a spiritual echo of the Dendro Archon, though not quite) hides him and helps him recover. Scaramouche realises he has no more allies since the Fatui think he's betrayed them - so he makes a deal with Nahida - that he will delve into Irminsul to search for the answers that the Traveler seeks. Irminsul is a sort of "world tree" connected to all the ley-lines in the world, serving as a record of all knowledge in the world, and only Archons have the ability to access it.
Scaramouche enters the Irminsul and discovers the truth about his origin - the "betrayal" he experienced was orchestrated by Dottore all along. He begins to regret all the people he killed as part of his vengeance plot, all the suffering he caused, and most of all, the fact that all the suffering and bitterness he endured over hundreds of years was pointless in the end.
So the trick with Irminsul is that it's not just a record of the world, it IS the world as well - think of it like the data repository of an MMOPRG. He uses his powers in Irminsul to erase himself, and he expects that history and reality would be altered, that he would have never existed, and all the pain he caused would never happen and the lives he ended would be restored.
It turns out that's not how it works, the consequences of what he did were still in the world, but no one remembers who he is or what he did, and the "causality" of those events were severed. Instead of a person being murdered by him, people just remember that they died of a random accident.
Scaramouche still exists in the world, but he has no memory of who he was before. He starts as a blank slate, and spends his time wandering the world, helping other people and doing good. Later on, the Traveler meets him - and the Traveler, being from another world, and not having a connection to Irminsul, is the only one who can remember who he is. You bring him to Nahida, and you explain that you know reality has been altered, but you're not sure how or why, or whether Scaramouche should know the truth about himself.
Scaramouche says that he wants to know his past - if he did indeed do evil things, then it is only right that he know about it to atone for it, rather than living freely ignorant of his evil deeds. Nahida shows him a parable or myth that was recorded, written in an allegorical form with very indirect references, that would survive the reality edit that Scaramouche did to himself, because Irminsul would not have known to erase it as well.
The entire emotional story - the pain of abandonment and betrayal, the rage against the world, then rage against a lifetime of pointless suffering, then that rage turned inwards - into the ultimate act of self destruction, a suicide so complete it erases your existence from the world itself and from everyone who ever knew you - and then the completion of the arc, where a "good" Scaramouche willingly takes on the burden of knowledge of his crimes so he can spend his lifetime atoning for it - it's just astonishing. Holy moly. And that's just one out of dozens of characters in the game, with intersecting stories.
posted by xdvesper at 3:22 AM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Scaramouche storyline has been the best villain redemption arcs I've come across.
Is this like that situation where no-one at Nintendo knew that wee is a synonym for piss?
I just tried Warframe for the first time in a few years. First I had to download 20gb of updates. Then I was confronted with such an overwhelming avalanche of new content that I'm too intimidated to play it. I can see myself studying the wiki for a week like I'm prepping for an exam. It took me a while to remember that special keystroke combo that let's you anti-grav parkour around the map.
I recently completed A Plague's Tale: Requiem. It's not a long game. The graphics are - no shit - the best I've ever seen. It's a mixed bag, some of it is traipsing across a floral meadow, then later you're wading chest deep in a river of rotting corpses. The gore is very intense. It uses photogrammetry from Quixel Megascans, which I haven't seen before. It's just as amazing as the promo videos.
I finished it. Then I burped and patted my belly contentedly. There was a satisfying conclusion. I can move on!
Different medium - but I stopped reading Game of Thrones halfway through book five. When is the next Arya chapter? Oh god - not forever. Nothing ever resolves, and more characters are being added. Doesn't this fucking thing end? What if George dies?
I dunno, for narrative reasons, for satisfaction, for a sense of achievement - whatever. I think a game should end at some point. Like, two Scaramucci's at the max.
posted by adept256 at 3:55 AM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this like that situation where no-one at Nintendo knew that wee is a synonym for piss?
I just tried Warframe for the first time in a few years. First I had to download 20gb of updates. Then I was confronted with such an overwhelming avalanche of new content that I'm too intimidated to play it. I can see myself studying the wiki for a week like I'm prepping for an exam. It took me a while to remember that special keystroke combo that let's you anti-grav parkour around the map.
I recently completed A Plague's Tale: Requiem. It's not a long game. The graphics are - no shit - the best I've ever seen. It's a mixed bag, some of it is traipsing across a floral meadow, then later you're wading chest deep in a river of rotting corpses. The gore is very intense. It uses photogrammetry from Quixel Megascans, which I haven't seen before. It's just as amazing as the promo videos.
I finished it. Then I burped and patted my belly contentedly. There was a satisfying conclusion. I can move on!
Different medium - but I stopped reading Game of Thrones halfway through book five. When is the next Arya chapter? Oh god - not forever. Nothing ever resolves, and more characters are being added. Doesn't this fucking thing end? What if George dies?
I dunno, for narrative reasons, for satisfaction, for a sense of achievement - whatever. I think a game should end at some point. Like, two Scaramucci's at the max.
posted by adept256 at 3:55 AM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think a game should end at some point.
Definitely. Genshin Impact and Honkai Impact have a planned story arc with definite ends (all their live service games do, GGZ story has ended, and Honkai Impact is almost at the end, Genshin is about halfway through, and they have more games in the pipeline - Star Rail, Zenless Zone Zero, etc).
I think the best analogy I have is probably TV streaming formats - you have shows which dump all 12 episodes in the season in a single day, so people can binge watch it, and you have shows which dole it out slowly over 12 weeks.
The ones which dole it out slowly are inherently more accessible and build a better community - you can have watercooler conversations over the next week, individual threads on Fanfare where people discuss what happened and speculate on future episodes.
The ones which dump everything at once? You can't really talk to anyone because everyone is at different points in the series, and conversation about the entire series at once is kind of limited, some people have binged the whole thing and just sort of want to move on to the next thing.
I prefer series which drop episodes one per week, and I think that's why I like live service games as well - the slower pace of content suits me.
posted by xdvesper at 4:40 AM on February 5, 2023
Definitely. Genshin Impact and Honkai Impact have a planned story arc with definite ends (all their live service games do, GGZ story has ended, and Honkai Impact is almost at the end, Genshin is about halfway through, and they have more games in the pipeline - Star Rail, Zenless Zone Zero, etc).
I think the best analogy I have is probably TV streaming formats - you have shows which dump all 12 episodes in the season in a single day, so people can binge watch it, and you have shows which dole it out slowly over 12 weeks.
The ones which dole it out slowly are inherently more accessible and build a better community - you can have watercooler conversations over the next week, individual threads on Fanfare where people discuss what happened and speculate on future episodes.
The ones which dump everything at once? You can't really talk to anyone because everyone is at different points in the series, and conversation about the entire series at once is kind of limited, some people have binged the whole thing and just sort of want to move on to the next thing.
I prefer series which drop episodes one per week, and I think that's why I like live service games as well - the slower pace of content suits me.
posted by xdvesper at 4:40 AM on February 5, 2023
If games never die, there can’t be new games.
Why would I want other people around fucking up my shit?
100%. I didn’t buy a PC in order to interact with human beings. They are the worst. (I’m completely serious here.)
posted by Phanx at 4:59 AM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why would I want other people around fucking up my shit?
100%. I didn’t buy a PC in order to interact with human beings. They are the worst. (I’m completely serious here.)
posted by Phanx at 4:59 AM on February 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean, I doubt that Genshin Impact (which I've played some of, up to Liyue, and I'd be surprised if it was able to do better than average in the storytelling department) is able to top some of the best work I've seen in gaming. But maybe it does! I certainly didn't think much of Warframe's story until The Second Dream, where it pulled an absolutely bold plotline out of nowhere that worked better because it was a live service game. It was able to seed in details that I'd already absorbed because it was gameplay-related or just how the game was. Recontextualising the labels for various mod types as my character's latent memories? Absolute chills. Oh, the moon has been gone, I don't know why I didn't think that was weird.
Genshin Impact is a gigantic single player narrative / exploration / puzzle / combat driven game that can be easily (even, best) completed using your starter character, for free. The storylines and characters and world building is incredible, people are so drawn into it that most of the posts on the subreddit are fan art and cosplays.
Genshin's monetised through a gacha system, which you can interact with using currency you earn through gameplay, but is absolutely designed to psychologically manipulate a minority of people into sinking thousands of dollars into it. What's probably more egregious for this conversation is how high-level play works, and how its fortnightly updates work.
At high-level play, increasing your character's level cap requires you to collect three different currencies, from about sixty, the combinations of which are different for every character. Some of these currencies are higher tier than others, and can be promoted up and down, and they all come from different places. The problem is, at high levels, you run out of tiers, and thus have to fight the same boss over and over again, blowing time-limited energy (oh yeah, it also has an energy mechanic) to summon the boss, or grinding out hundreds of enemies, or doing multiple farming trips to the spawn point for the lilies you might need.
Like many games, Genshin Impact also has fortnightly updates, which introduce additional little bits of story that disappear after two weeks. Theoretically, this gives players at the cap something to do to log in; in practice, there's some lovely FOMO going on - in particular because some of these updates (I personally noticed this in Dragonspine, the mountain area) are direct sequels of others, so if you don't catch all of them since launch, you're permanently behind on the story.
posted by Merus at 5:07 AM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Genshin Impact is a gigantic single player narrative / exploration / puzzle / combat driven game that can be easily (even, best) completed using your starter character, for free. The storylines and characters and world building is incredible, people are so drawn into it that most of the posts on the subreddit are fan art and cosplays.
Genshin's monetised through a gacha system, which you can interact with using currency you earn through gameplay, but is absolutely designed to psychologically manipulate a minority of people into sinking thousands of dollars into it. What's probably more egregious for this conversation is how high-level play works, and how its fortnightly updates work.
At high-level play, increasing your character's level cap requires you to collect three different currencies, from about sixty, the combinations of which are different for every character. Some of these currencies are higher tier than others, and can be promoted up and down, and they all come from different places. The problem is, at high levels, you run out of tiers, and thus have to fight the same boss over and over again, blowing time-limited energy (oh yeah, it also has an energy mechanic) to summon the boss, or grinding out hundreds of enemies, or doing multiple farming trips to the spawn point for the lilies you might need.
Like many games, Genshin Impact also has fortnightly updates, which introduce additional little bits of story that disappear after two weeks. Theoretically, this gives players at the cap something to do to log in; in practice, there's some lovely FOMO going on - in particular because some of these updates (I personally noticed this in Dragonspine, the mountain area) are direct sequels of others, so if you don't catch all of them since launch, you're permanently behind on the story.
posted by Merus at 5:07 AM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
At high-level play, increasing your character's level cap
But that's not even a thing you need to do, arguably, it's not connected to the "game" in any real way. So there's the Abyss which you can clear every 2 weeks, which takes maybe 1 hour, with some variation of difficult enemies, which... just rewards you with more materials, so you can clear the same Abyss faster. That minigame is totally unconnected to the story and world, and yeah you get some bragging rights if you clear it "quickly" but - yeah I'm happy if I kill Nergigante in Monster Hunter World within 5 minutes or do it without taking damage, but that's entirely stuff I'm doing for my own satisfaction. And, ironically, the whole point of "high level play" is to do it with LESS resources, not more - what people are bragging about is, hey, I smashed the Abyss with 4 star characters, or I did it with less characters, or I did it with an underlevelled weapon, or I killed Nergigante with a joke equipment set up.
There are people who spend thousands on the game who don't even play the Abyss.
Like, I feel, in concept, Lost Ark is more problematic - it's an MMORPG where the main activity is raiding, and those raids have a minimum level requirement, and social conventions enforce a minimum gear requirement, both of which are locked behinds an RNG system, gacha system, whatever, where if you end up with bad luck you can be very behind the curve and feel pressured to spend money to keep up with your friends.
Not the case in Genshin which is essentially single player narrative / world exploration and doesn't really lock any story or world exploration elements. I'd argue it's closer to League of Legends, where their gacha is purely cosmetic and irrelevant to the actual game being played.
The few people I've known who have dropped major cash on Genshin - taking about $1000 to $2000 - has done it purely out of love for a particular character. They're not buying it for anything functional. It's not helping them clear the Abyss any faster, or progress through the story any better. It's just... damn I think this guy is cute, I like his backstory, let me max out his constellations and get him his signature because I really like him and he's like a child / virtual boyfriend to me.
If you were "really" a high-level player interested in beating the Abyss for maximum rewards or whatever you'd quickly realise spending money on the game is pointless.
Is fast food or junk food designed to be psychologically addictive? By definition, yes. There can't be any that aren't, Genshin included.
Though, missing some of the story (even a year of the story - I've taken a break of well over a year before coming back) isn't a huge issue since I can easily catch up to it on YouTube. And from a team building point of view, my old optimized teams from over a year ago are still "ok" to use, not top tier anymore, but certainly in a much better state than you would be in an MMORPG where you'd have to re-grind everything from scratch once the expansion hits.
posted by xdvesper at 6:01 AM on February 5, 2023
But that's not even a thing you need to do, arguably, it's not connected to the "game" in any real way. So there's the Abyss which you can clear every 2 weeks, which takes maybe 1 hour, with some variation of difficult enemies, which... just rewards you with more materials, so you can clear the same Abyss faster. That minigame is totally unconnected to the story and world, and yeah you get some bragging rights if you clear it "quickly" but - yeah I'm happy if I kill Nergigante in Monster Hunter World within 5 minutes or do it without taking damage, but that's entirely stuff I'm doing for my own satisfaction. And, ironically, the whole point of "high level play" is to do it with LESS resources, not more - what people are bragging about is, hey, I smashed the Abyss with 4 star characters, or I did it with less characters, or I did it with an underlevelled weapon, or I killed Nergigante with a joke equipment set up.
There are people who spend thousands on the game who don't even play the Abyss.
Like, I feel, in concept, Lost Ark is more problematic - it's an MMORPG where the main activity is raiding, and those raids have a minimum level requirement, and social conventions enforce a minimum gear requirement, both of which are locked behinds an RNG system, gacha system, whatever, where if you end up with bad luck you can be very behind the curve and feel pressured to spend money to keep up with your friends.
Not the case in Genshin which is essentially single player narrative / world exploration and doesn't really lock any story or world exploration elements. I'd argue it's closer to League of Legends, where their gacha is purely cosmetic and irrelevant to the actual game being played.
The few people I've known who have dropped major cash on Genshin - taking about $1000 to $2000 - has done it purely out of love for a particular character. They're not buying it for anything functional. It's not helping them clear the Abyss any faster, or progress through the story any better. It's just... damn I think this guy is cute, I like his backstory, let me max out his constellations and get him his signature because I really like him and he's like a child / virtual boyfriend to me.
If you were "really" a high-level player interested in beating the Abyss for maximum rewards or whatever you'd quickly realise spending money on the game is pointless.
Is fast food or junk food designed to be psychologically addictive? By definition, yes. There can't be any that aren't, Genshin included.
Though, missing some of the story (even a year of the story - I've taken a break of well over a year before coming back) isn't a huge issue since I can easily catch up to it on YouTube. And from a team building point of view, my old optimized teams from over a year ago are still "ok" to use, not top tier anymore, but certainly in a much better state than you would be in an MMORPG where you'd have to re-grind everything from scratch once the expansion hits.
posted by xdvesper at 6:01 AM on February 5, 2023
So, are you going to pay $70 for a title?
Yes? I don't buy many AAA games at retail, and I'm as annoyed as anyone at a living-my-life level that AAA pricing is jumping again the same way I'm annoyed that gas gets more expensive and stamp prices go up, but prices go up. You want criticism about the priorities of the AAA games industry practices that contribute to that, I'm here for it as well. But retail is retail, you do or you don't buy a thing at the price its listed at. I don't buy many big games at retail -- maybe twice a year, tops -- but when I do it's because it's a game I think I'm gonna get my money's worth. Because I want to play that game, not some intentionally compromised, watered-down money spigot homunculus of it.
I would have paid $70 (or, really, at the time, $60) on day one for a single-player Fallout 5 if they'd made that instead of Fallout 76. Ditto a new proper Elder Scrolls game instead of Elder Scrolls Online. I paid retail for Elden Ring because I knew it was right up my alley; I wouldn't have if it were a "hmm, maybe that'd be fun" thing. But in the mean time, both the Fallout and Elder Scrolls franchises have had their resources tied up in their MMO projects that by definition are such big investments that they've got to be made to pay themselves off, which means its that much longer before a new single-player, pay-retail-once title comes out. I've put 100+, sometimes 200+ hours into each of these games, far more than I've ever been able to find the enthusiasm for in an MMO.
But there's also an entire world of smaller indie stuff out there which is where most of my gaming money goes, stuff I spend $5 or $10 or $25 on; there's no binary between escalating full retail price and freemium dark patterns. Which makes it that more frustrating when either publishers or players pretend like those are the only two options. And it's not the indie developers setting up multi-year GaaS grindfests; they don't have the resources to even try.
posted by cortex at 9:43 AM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes? I don't buy many AAA games at retail, and I'm as annoyed as anyone at a living-my-life level that AAA pricing is jumping again the same way I'm annoyed that gas gets more expensive and stamp prices go up, but prices go up. You want criticism about the priorities of the AAA games industry practices that contribute to that, I'm here for it as well. But retail is retail, you do or you don't buy a thing at the price its listed at. I don't buy many big games at retail -- maybe twice a year, tops -- but when I do it's because it's a game I think I'm gonna get my money's worth. Because I want to play that game, not some intentionally compromised, watered-down money spigot homunculus of it.
I would have paid $70 (or, really, at the time, $60) on day one for a single-player Fallout 5 if they'd made that instead of Fallout 76. Ditto a new proper Elder Scrolls game instead of Elder Scrolls Online. I paid retail for Elden Ring because I knew it was right up my alley; I wouldn't have if it were a "hmm, maybe that'd be fun" thing. But in the mean time, both the Fallout and Elder Scrolls franchises have had their resources tied up in their MMO projects that by definition are such big investments that they've got to be made to pay themselves off, which means its that much longer before a new single-player, pay-retail-once title comes out. I've put 100+, sometimes 200+ hours into each of these games, far more than I've ever been able to find the enthusiasm for in an MMO.
But there's also an entire world of smaller indie stuff out there which is where most of my gaming money goes, stuff I spend $5 or $10 or $25 on; there's no binary between escalating full retail price and freemium dark patterns. Which makes it that more frustrating when either publishers or players pretend like those are the only two options. And it's not the indie developers setting up multi-year GaaS grindfests; they don't have the resources to even try.
posted by cortex at 9:43 AM on February 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would also like to take this opportunity to shill for Warframe, where I am a backflipping purple cyber ninja who will never face a student loan, controlled by a happy human who will never have to buy a battle pass or loot box.
I bounced off WoW and then held out against live service games in general until quarantine. Then Rockstar gave us all something like $500,000 - $1M to play around with online in the name of public safety. I already had GTAV installed for the single player, and it was so easy to fall into. Most other players being unreliable dirtbags only enhanced the simulation. I won't admit to how long I spent with it, but to say that my character is now a semi retired criminal kingpin who wakes up on a yacht whenever a new expansion comes out.
I've kept coming back to it because of how strangely uncynical it is compared to the market it helped invent. There's nothing important in the game you can't buy with the money in the game, and everything you do in the game racks it up. By the late midgame, you're making money actively while waiting on the money you have cooking passively. By late game your main problem is keeping up to how fast your money could be coming in, making GTAO a potent fantasy of long term financial security.
You are welcome to spend your real money buying this fake money, but will never need to. You are also welcome to walk that fake money into a fake casino, and place bets with it, which feels weird. Also, this is an online game that should probably only be played alone or with a few trusted friends, on account of the extremely toxic community overrun with cheaters and hackers. I will probably keep playing it as long as Take Two's shareholders let me, since I don't think there will ever be another one like it.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:31 AM on February 5, 2023
I bounced off WoW and then held out against live service games in general until quarantine. Then Rockstar gave us all something like $500,000 - $1M to play around with online in the name of public safety. I already had GTAV installed for the single player, and it was so easy to fall into. Most other players being unreliable dirtbags only enhanced the simulation. I won't admit to how long I spent with it, but to say that my character is now a semi retired criminal kingpin who wakes up on a yacht whenever a new expansion comes out.
I've kept coming back to it because of how strangely uncynical it is compared to the market it helped invent. There's nothing important in the game you can't buy with the money in the game, and everything you do in the game racks it up. By the late midgame, you're making money actively while waiting on the money you have cooking passively. By late game your main problem is keeping up to how fast your money could be coming in, making GTAO a potent fantasy of long term financial security.
You are welcome to spend your real money buying this fake money, but will never need to. You are also welcome to walk that fake money into a fake casino, and place bets with it, which feels weird. Also, this is an online game that should probably only be played alone or with a few trusted friends, on account of the extremely toxic community overrun with cheaters and hackers. I will probably keep playing it as long as Take Two's shareholders let me, since I don't think there will ever be another one like it.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:31 AM on February 5, 2023
I've been thinking about—really, haunted by—Tevis Thompson's mammoth essay It's Not Coming Back, which is specifically about the original Fortnite no longer existing as an experience. One of the points he returns to, again and again, is that Fortnite as it originally existed is deader even than old retro games are, because you can still pirate ancient games or buy them on GOG; to the best of my knowledge, you can't play Fortnite in its original incarnation, no matter how hard you try. Which is interesting on one level, but a little melancholy on another.
The comparison to MMORPGs definitely feels partly right, but where it changes, for me, is that Fortnite is a game designed by a pretty fast-paced one-off play loop. Changing the design of the game fundamentally changes the game, in different ways than expanding its world or its systems. (To some extent, that exists when games get patched or things get nerfed, etc, but it feels different to me here.)
Based on the last time "It's Not Coming Back" got posted to the blue, I'd caution that it's not everybody's cup of tea—Thompson can come off as abrasive and even petty unless you really have faith in him as a critic, or understand the basic tenets that he operates on. But it's the best thing I've read in ages, and makes some points about the relationship between gaming culture and politics that I found extremely illuminating, if disturbing.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:07 AM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The comparison to MMORPGs definitely feels partly right, but where it changes, for me, is that Fortnite is a game designed by a pretty fast-paced one-off play loop. Changing the design of the game fundamentally changes the game, in different ways than expanding its world or its systems. (To some extent, that exists when games get patched or things get nerfed, etc, but it feels different to me here.)
Based on the last time "It's Not Coming Back" got posted to the blue, I'd caution that it's not everybody's cup of tea—Thompson can come off as abrasive and even petty unless you really have faith in him as a critic, or understand the basic tenets that he operates on. But it's the best thing I've read in ages, and makes some points about the relationship between gaming culture and politics that I found extremely illuminating, if disturbing.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:07 AM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I guess the tl;dr is that art and commerce have always made for a real bastard chimera, but when the commerce side extends as far as to have the power to fundamentally change or remove the art in question, I start getting really uncomfortable.
(Though there's a storied tradition of that in the arts, too. The Magnificent Ambersons, anybody?)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:09 AM on February 5, 2023
(Though there's a storied tradition of that in the arts, too. The Magnificent Ambersons, anybody?)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:09 AM on February 5, 2023
I'm another who almost exclusively buys and plays indie games. Occasionally I buy a big name game, but they tend to be overly drawn out and grindy and kinda boring, making the same safe choices as the other AAA games. Innovation is in the indie space, which makes it a lot more fun, and they don't have the budgets for capitalist buggery.
I often think of the economics of creativity in terms of graphic novels and movies. You need a bigger team to land a movie, and a really well produced movie requires a really big team and giant piles of money, which almost certainly means sticking to safer choices. A graphic novel can be done by a team of one to four people, which greatly reduces the need for initial investment, and opens up the floodgates for more creative risks.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:56 AM on February 5, 2023
I often think of the economics of creativity in terms of graphic novels and movies. You need a bigger team to land a movie, and a really well produced movie requires a really big team and giant piles of money, which almost certainly means sticking to safer choices. A graphic novel can be done by a team of one to four people, which greatly reduces the need for initial investment, and opens up the floodgates for more creative risks.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:56 AM on February 5, 2023
So, are you going to pay $70 for a title?
Sure? I mean why wouldn't I pay $70 for Starfield? Video and computer games are stupidly cheap per hour.
(If you meant $70 for this kind of game, they've never held any interest for me)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:11 PM on February 5, 2023
Sure? I mean why wouldn't I pay $70 for Starfield? Video and computer games are stupidly cheap per hour.
(If you meant $70 for this kind of game, they've never held any interest for me)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:11 PM on February 5, 2023
$70 for a game is more than fair, considering (a) we paid 50 bucks for them in the mid-80s, which is $120-130 in today's money, and (b) AAA games have become massively more expensive to produce since then
posted by rifflesby at 6:56 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rifflesby at 6:56 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even if you don't think that AAA games are worth what they're asking (many aren't, IMO), it's not like sales are exactly rare. You may have to wait a while, but if you're like me and are constantly a year or two behind that's no problem. If anything, it's a better experience since you miss out on all the brokenness that often plagues the initial release these days and get a discount of 33-80% off the initial release price.
Thankfully there are still enough games out there that have little to no online component that I'm not fussed by all the online griefer bullshit keeping me away from some games. I give No Man's Sky a pass because it's easy enough to never see another person because vast universe or turn off multiplayer entirely.
posted by wierdo at 10:04 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thankfully there are still enough games out there that have little to no online component that I'm not fussed by all the online griefer bullshit keeping me away from some games. I give No Man's Sky a pass because it's easy enough to never see another person because vast universe or turn off multiplayer entirely.
posted by wierdo at 10:04 PM on February 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m going to be up front that I am not willing to pay 70$ for a game, and I don’t care that they are more expensive to produce, because they’re not spending that money on shit I actually fucking care about. They are largely spending it on cooler graphics or cooler combat, and neither of those things is what I play games for. Thus why I spend a lot of money on Steam, where you can still get interesting plot and story, without hyper-realistic graphics, for reasonable prices.
This is also why I’m not playing these online live games. I’m absolutely within the target audience for this. The amount of time I spent on MUDs and MUSHes and MOOs is absolutely unreal. But that stuff was centered in story and community, not on making you jump through hoops so somebody else could make a continuing quick buck. These game developers don’t want you to be satisfied with a game, because if you are, you won’t keep paying extra. So yeah, I refuse to pay retail because I have no interest in rewarding that shit. And I have no interest in putting my energy into a world that they’re not going to commit to keeping open.
posted by corb at 12:22 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is also why I’m not playing these online live games. I’m absolutely within the target audience for this. The amount of time I spent on MUDs and MUSHes and MOOs is absolutely unreal. But that stuff was centered in story and community, not on making you jump through hoops so somebody else could make a continuing quick buck. These game developers don’t want you to be satisfied with a game, because if you are, you won’t keep paying extra. So yeah, I refuse to pay retail because I have no interest in rewarding that shit. And I have no interest in putting my energy into a world that they’re not going to commit to keeping open.
posted by corb at 12:22 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
The always great James Stephanie Sterling: I Was 100% Right About The Stupid Live Service Gold Rush.
posted by Pendragon at 10:15 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 10:15 AM on February 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is this like that situation where no-one at Nintendo knew that wee is a synonym for piss?
Scaramouche is one big Bohemian Rhapsody reference. His theme song is "Ominous Fandango" and his backstory is basically the plot of the song.
I've been playing Genshin Impact since last Feb and I'm 100% free to play. You only really need to care about one specific currency if you care about the gacha (primogems) and that currency is very easy to get free. Different in-game activities, version updates & maintenance, check ins, other streamers, sometimes just for the hell of it. I've accumulated a number of 5 stars for free as well as almost every 4 star available (I'm just missing Razor and Faruzan) but honestly I get by on a core group of like 7. I don't care about the Abyss or in hitting ridiculous numbers - I'm here for the story and for the fun activities, and if I'm missing out on lore or events there's always the Genshin YouTube community to fill me in. I've taken breaks from it too and it's fine, I don't feel like I've lost out too much - hell they give you bonuses for coming back after a hiatus.
As far as paying for games goes: I have found the Xbox Game Pass (and more recently the PlayStation subscription library) super useful in trying out games before I buy them. There's been a ton of games on my wishlist that I've gotten to try, some of which I liked and some of which I'm glad I didn't end up buying permanently because it turns out I wasn't into them. Sometimes those games lead to more permanent purchases - I bought My Time at Sandrock on early access because I loved My Time at Portia which I tried on Game Pass. A lot of the games I enjoy are smaller indie titles that don't have a ton of replayability but also don't have a physical version, so trying to borrow them from my local library (which does have games but only the bigger ones) wasn't an option - but the subscriptions help me engage with them like I would a library book. I don't really have much in the way of disposable income and these services have made gaming way more accessible to me. (My kingdom for a more extensive Nintendo or PC subscription)
I wish second hand digital sales, especially on console, were more viable. I bought Disco Elysium at almost full price but couldn't stand it - that's a game I wished I'd tried on a subscription service first, with money that could have been way better spent on anything else.
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:32 PM on February 6, 2023
Scaramouche is one big Bohemian Rhapsody reference. His theme song is "Ominous Fandango" and his backstory is basically the plot of the song.
I've been playing Genshin Impact since last Feb and I'm 100% free to play. You only really need to care about one specific currency if you care about the gacha (primogems) and that currency is very easy to get free. Different in-game activities, version updates & maintenance, check ins, other streamers, sometimes just for the hell of it. I've accumulated a number of 5 stars for free as well as almost every 4 star available (I'm just missing Razor and Faruzan) but honestly I get by on a core group of like 7. I don't care about the Abyss or in hitting ridiculous numbers - I'm here for the story and for the fun activities, and if I'm missing out on lore or events there's always the Genshin YouTube community to fill me in. I've taken breaks from it too and it's fine, I don't feel like I've lost out too much - hell they give you bonuses for coming back after a hiatus.
As far as paying for games goes: I have found the Xbox Game Pass (and more recently the PlayStation subscription library) super useful in trying out games before I buy them. There's been a ton of games on my wishlist that I've gotten to try, some of which I liked and some of which I'm glad I didn't end up buying permanently because it turns out I wasn't into them. Sometimes those games lead to more permanent purchases - I bought My Time at Sandrock on early access because I loved My Time at Portia which I tried on Game Pass. A lot of the games I enjoy are smaller indie titles that don't have a ton of replayability but also don't have a physical version, so trying to borrow them from my local library (which does have games but only the bigger ones) wasn't an option - but the subscriptions help me engage with them like I would a library book. I don't really have much in the way of disposable income and these services have made gaming way more accessible to me. (My kingdom for a more extensive Nintendo or PC subscription)
I wish second hand digital sales, especially on console, were more viable. I bought Disco Elysium at almost full price but couldn't stand it - that's a game I wished I'd tried on a subscription service first, with money that could have been way better spent on anything else.
posted by creatrixtiara at 5:32 PM on February 6, 2023
In some games the crazy graphics do add to the experience in a very enjoyable way. Cyberpunk 2077, for example, is what I'd call somewhere from middling to above average in terms of story, but when you can go full send on the graphics it really nails the hyperreal cyberpunk feeling.
No way I'd spend what it costs to buy a gaming PC capable of playing it at 4k with all the raytraced lighting and shadows maxed out, but it was totally worth spending $30 plus another $20 on a month of GeForce Now's 3080 tier. (Maybe not if that was literally the only game I'd played using the service that month, but there were others, too)
posted by wierdo at 7:21 PM on February 6, 2023
No way I'd spend what it costs to buy a gaming PC capable of playing it at 4k with all the raytraced lighting and shadows maxed out, but it was totally worth spending $30 plus another $20 on a month of GeForce Now's 3080 tier. (Maybe not if that was literally the only game I'd played using the service that month, but there were others, too)
posted by wierdo at 7:21 PM on February 6, 2023
> I deeply resent Destiny for being GaaS. What an incredible single player scifi epic that setting could have been. Instead its GRRM style dropped plot points and an ever expanding skybox of pretty locations, tantalizing scifi greebles, and zero closure.
It was pretty bad early on, but in the last couple of years (where, ironically they have really leaned into the live service model) have been pretty great in terms of plot. Stuff is happening. Characters are changing. The story is clearly going somewhere (slowly, but ymmv). It's like a tv show where I can shoot things.
posted by goddess_eris at 11:23 AM on February 7, 2023
It was pretty bad early on, but in the last couple of years (where, ironically they have really leaned into the live service model) have been pretty great in terms of plot. Stuff is happening. Characters are changing. The story is clearly going somewhere (slowly, but ymmv). It's like a tv show where I can shoot things.
posted by goddess_eris at 11:23 AM on February 7, 2023
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