Thread for practicing pronouns: Pet photo show and tell, etc.
November 27, 2023 3:31 PM Subscribe
This is pronouns.page. This is a thread for everyone who feels like they need a place to expand their pronoun usage. Y'all can come here and maybe even feel a little awkward while pretending it's perfectly normal. And then it will BE perfectly normal because you have helped build the future. Need a place to start? Try using new pronouns to talk about your pets: they/them or ki/kin.
Retell your favorite fairy tale using pronouns you'd like practice with. Etc.
Retell your favorite fairy tale using pronouns you'd like practice with. Etc.
This seems as good a place as any to talk about how I feel about sharing pronouns in introductions (I am trans, but I very much do not speak for all trans people so of course please take what I say with a grain of salt).
I think my ideal situation is about 80% of people sharing pronouns in meetings and email signatures and so on because I really want to normalize the idea that no one is owed someone else's pronouns and there are lots of reasons that people would prefer not to share pronouns including safety (physical/emotional/social), not knowing, and not being ready to talk about it (I have been in all of these situations), and some people not sharing pronouns to provide cover for others who aren't sure or don't feel safe can be helpful. I also really prefer the phrasing "what pronouns would you like me/us to use for you?" because, again, I've had times where I didn't know what my pronouns were or I knew but couldn't share them publicly. I suspect other people have a broad range of feelings about this too but this is where I am at this point (and have been for a while).
I do very much appreciate people practicing correct pronoun usage on their own time. I think it's easy to miss how very very shitty it feels for many of us to get misgendered; I know it can be an easy mistake to make but it just really really sucks especially if you're already in a fragile place. Please if you think you might screw up put in the time and energy because it actually does matter.
posted by an octopus IRL at 4:37 PM on November 27, 2023 [33 favorites]
I think my ideal situation is about 80% of people sharing pronouns in meetings and email signatures and so on because I really want to normalize the idea that no one is owed someone else's pronouns and there are lots of reasons that people would prefer not to share pronouns including safety (physical/emotional/social), not knowing, and not being ready to talk about it (I have been in all of these situations), and some people not sharing pronouns to provide cover for others who aren't sure or don't feel safe can be helpful. I also really prefer the phrasing "what pronouns would you like me/us to use for you?" because, again, I've had times where I didn't know what my pronouns were or I knew but couldn't share them publicly. I suspect other people have a broad range of feelings about this too but this is where I am at this point (and have been for a while).
I do very much appreciate people practicing correct pronoun usage on their own time. I think it's easy to miss how very very shitty it feels for many of us to get misgendered; I know it can be an easy mistake to make but it just really really sucks especially if you're already in a fragile place. Please if you think you might screw up put in the time and energy because it actually does matter.
posted by an octopus IRL at 4:37 PM on November 27, 2023 [33 favorites]
I do actually use they/them pronouns for my* dog, since I can't ask my dog what pronouns to use. They are adorable. I don't have pictures so maybe you have no way to know they're really real. But they are. (BYO pictures of cute pets.) I got them from a rescue a few years back, right before the start of the ongoing pandemic. They were already older, and they've learned plenty of new vocabulary since then. You can totally teach an old dog new tricks! There is only one of them, though sometimes people look around for a second dog.
I don't use ki/kin pronouns for my* dog. But if I did, I might tell you that ki is adorable. That you have no way of knowing ki is real (but ki is). My dog never talks about kinself, being a dog, but if ki did, ki might have opinions on topics such as food (chicken), leisure activities (many short walks), and baths (unnecessary). Ki likes me to cover kin with a blanket when it's cold out, and is particular about kins blanket arrangements.
*language usage note: "my" as in "my roommate" or "my friend" not as in ownership.
posted by aniola at 5:52 PM on November 27, 2023
I don't use ki/kin pronouns for my* dog. But if I did, I might tell you that ki is adorable. That you have no way of knowing ki is real (but ki is). My dog never talks about kinself, being a dog, but if ki did, ki might have opinions on topics such as food (chicken), leisure activities (many short walks), and baths (unnecessary). Ki likes me to cover kin with a blanket when it's cold out, and is particular about kins blanket arrangements.
*language usage note: "my" as in "my roommate" or "my friend" not as in ownership.
posted by aniola at 5:52 PM on November 27, 2023
I'm in much the same place as an Octopus IRL, as I've probably said, oh, nine thousand times on Metafilter before. "Let's all share 'our' pronouns" in cis-dominated spaces genuinely triggers flight or fight for me and it's been, I don't know, like fifteen years since such a scenario posed problems for me.
Pronouns are merely an API. They're not "my" pronouns, they're not my gender, you're not entitled to my gender because you've decided you're an ally.
posted by hoyland at 6:09 PM on November 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
Pronouns are merely an API. They're not "my" pronouns, they're not my gender, you're not entitled to my gender because you've decided you're an ally.
posted by hoyland at 6:09 PM on November 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
>I also really prefer the phrasing "what pronouns would you like me/us to use for you?" because, again, I've had times where I didn't know what my pronouns were or I knew but couldn't share them publicly.
Thanks for the tip, Octopus! As another trans person, I agree with your ideas. I can't stress how practical pronoun pins also are for day-to-day, considering its a safe environment. Much easier to simply tap it then explain it all verbally.
posted by lianove3 at 6:25 PM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thanks for the tip, Octopus! As another trans person, I agree with your ideas. I can't stress how practical pronoun pins also are for day-to-day, considering its a safe environment. Much easier to simply tap it then explain it all verbally.
posted by lianove3 at 6:25 PM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
My workplace considered making it part of Zoom room ground rules that we all had to share our pronouns, and I pushed back on grounds similar to an octopus IRL's, and won.
posted by eirias at 6:45 PM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eirias at 6:45 PM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
And not everybody even wants any pronouns at all. Probably interesting information to a lot of people! Worth leaving in!
But I made this post only indirectly for people who are pronoun-competent for whatever reason. I made it with an intentional focus on the people who (for example) have an acquaintance with a kid who has started using they/them pronouns, and they're not confident talking about their friend's kid and they want to be supportive but it's new and new things are hard. It seems like people find it easier to talk about how it's hard than to just practice they/them-ing the kid.
People who feel awkward and like you have nothing meaningful to contribute, this thread is for you! Show up. Practice. Pronouns.page can model it, but nobody can practice for you. Practice is the only way to get through the awkward learning-a-new-thing phase and into the part where it's no big deal for you to mention to your partner that you liked your cashier's new hairdo and that they had an interesting shade of pink in their hair or whatever.
Even if you're pronoun competent, third person left and right in this thread! Talk about your pets, too! Am I the only person with a cute dog around here? They're napping, by the way. Dinner happened, their day is over until they get their bedtime snack.
posted by aniola at 7:10 PM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
But I made this post only indirectly for people who are pronoun-competent for whatever reason. I made it with an intentional focus on the people who (for example) have an acquaintance with a kid who has started using they/them pronouns, and they're not confident talking about their friend's kid and they want to be supportive but it's new and new things are hard. It seems like people find it easier to talk about how it's hard than to just practice they/them-ing the kid.
People who feel awkward and like you have nothing meaningful to contribute, this thread is for you! Show up. Practice. Pronouns.page can model it, but nobody can practice for you. Practice is the only way to get through the awkward learning-a-new-thing phase and into the part where it's no big deal for you to mention to your partner that you liked your cashier's new hairdo and that they had an interesting shade of pink in their hair or whatever.
Even if you're pronoun competent, third person left and right in this thread! Talk about your pets, too! Am I the only person with a cute dog around here? They're napping, by the way. Dinner happened, their day is over until they get their bedtime snack.
posted by aniola at 7:10 PM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I admit, I am utterly rusty with pronoun usage, but my general rule of thumb is that I try and be as neutral as possible with people I don't know and respect any requests or preferences I know. It's just simple courtesy and kindness. If I fall flat on my face, I'll apologize and try harder the next time.
The one thing that does rub me the wrong way in the pronoun sharing discussion - it's not the meaning behind the discussion - that's important. It's the performance, which can feel like a ritual, demonstrating how righteous the group is - like a loud public prayer service.
I think what bothers me is how often it feels completely insincere - "we've checked the box on the DEI worksheet - good job team!" The HR equivalent of an FCA huddle on the football field before going back to being a bunch of jerks and you can read smug holiness on some participant's faces.
I can't really determine how much my cynicism about this is a genuine read on the situation or if it's reflecting some internal discomfort on my part.
In the end I just table my feelings and remember that if it makes the world a slightly less crap place for folks, a bit of insincerity can still serve a purpose.
On the dog front - all four of the canine inhabitants of Casa Verde are in their winter sweaters and are snoring away. Except for the monkey who's worrying their paws again. The 19 year old half-chihuahua, half-pomeranian, half-demon is happily snoozing away once presented with a fresh pillow case to lay on. They're preferred pronouns are whatever gets them food faster.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:19 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The one thing that does rub me the wrong way in the pronoun sharing discussion - it's not the meaning behind the discussion - that's important. It's the performance, which can feel like a ritual, demonstrating how righteous the group is - like a loud public prayer service.
I think what bothers me is how often it feels completely insincere - "we've checked the box on the DEI worksheet - good job team!" The HR equivalent of an FCA huddle on the football field before going back to being a bunch of jerks and you can read smug holiness on some participant's faces.
I can't really determine how much my cynicism about this is a genuine read on the situation or if it's reflecting some internal discomfort on my part.
In the end I just table my feelings and remember that if it makes the world a slightly less crap place for folks, a bit of insincerity can still serve a purpose.
On the dog front - all four of the canine inhabitants of Casa Verde are in their winter sweaters and are snoring away. Except for the monkey who's worrying their paws again. The 19 year old half-chihuahua, half-pomeranian, half-demon is happily snoozing away once presented with a fresh pillow case to lay on. They're preferred pronouns are whatever gets them food faster.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:19 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I try to use what I hear people use when talking about themselves, or if their (decent!) family or friends talk about them try to go with that, but I just try to default to they/them these days. It's not too hard and seems the most polite approach without getting into someone's business. Old habits are hard to break, so I'm not 100%, but trying...
posted by maxwelton at 9:55 PM on November 27, 2023
posted by maxwelton at 9:55 PM on November 27, 2023
Pronouns are unexpectedly hard. A friend is non-binary and I thought it would be easy to use the right pronouns consistently, but for some reason it's not! This has caused a minor identity crisis for me. I guess if you were born in a certain place and time the programming is pretty strong. Either way, I have decided to just... relax... and do my best and keep practicing.
posted by keep_evolving at 10:26 PM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by keep_evolving at 10:26 PM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
you know what i want? an entirely neutral pronoun, that does not indicate gender, sex, or even species. i have wanted that since i was a little being; when, as a baby feminist, i realized the disadvantages and disenfranchisement of being born female into a man's man's man's world.
i want THAT to be the norm. all other pronouns would then be one's free choice, to share however they felt like doing.
i also considered making my pronouns it/that, but held back, because i didn't want to be misunderstood as being flippant or insulting about the issue.
posted by lapolla at 11:18 PM on November 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
i want THAT to be the norm. all other pronouns would then be one's free choice, to share however they felt like doing.
i also considered making my pronouns it/that, but held back, because i didn't want to be misunderstood as being flippant or insulting about the issue.
posted by lapolla at 11:18 PM on November 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Huh. Turns out my cats are *strongly* gendered in my head, even if I intellectually like the "they can't tell me, so default to they/them" approach. I'm more bothered that my additional nicknames for them are also gender stereotyped (e.g. princess/handsome/sweetie/buddy), though at least their actual names aren't.
Anyways, moving on to the topic of the post ... I generally don't have problems getting pronouns right, and the communities I hang out in give me plenty of practice, but my brain has decided to concentrate all of its weirdness about this issue on one particular person. I don't think I've ever misgendered her publicly, but I'm constantly correcting my brain when it tries to use they/them instead. And every time, I practice assiduously and silently think of several sentences about her. I shan't write any further here, because publicly writing about a real person feels wrong in this context, and I'd hate for her to recognize herself. So instead, I'll just send her good wishes, wherever she is now, since it's been a while since I heard from her. Thanks to aniola for the reminder and space to work on this =)
Oh, I just thought of another, where I'm not sure if I get her pronouns right, but I also think that's kind of the point. His request is "use whatever makes you most uncomfortable", which rules out "they", since that's my comfy default for don't know / doesn't matter. So do I just pick whichever is the worst match for her physical presentation? Or a neo pronoun that I've never used enough to get comfortable with? Or switch back and forth every time I refer to him because that makes me grammatically VERY uncomfortable? (Despite my confusion, I appreciate and am amused by this approach.)
I'm also delighted by how quickly language has evolved. I remember when people were making a big deal that we should use the cludgy "he or she" to replace the default "he" as subject. Now, using "they/them" when gender is unknown feels so _natural_, with a slight annoyance that it's ambiguous between "this anecdote is about somebody whose gender is irrelevant" and "this is referring to a specific person who identifies as nonbinary".
posted by Metasyntactic at 1:07 AM on November 28, 2023
Anyways, moving on to the topic of the post ... I generally don't have problems getting pronouns right, and the communities I hang out in give me plenty of practice, but my brain has decided to concentrate all of its weirdness about this issue on one particular person. I don't think I've ever misgendered her publicly, but I'm constantly correcting my brain when it tries to use they/them instead. And every time, I practice assiduously and silently think of several sentences about her. I shan't write any further here, because publicly writing about a real person feels wrong in this context, and I'd hate for her to recognize herself. So instead, I'll just send her good wishes, wherever she is now, since it's been a while since I heard from her. Thanks to aniola for the reminder and space to work on this =)
Oh, I just thought of another, where I'm not sure if I get her pronouns right, but I also think that's kind of the point. His request is "use whatever makes you most uncomfortable", which rules out "they", since that's my comfy default for don't know / doesn't matter. So do I just pick whichever is the worst match for her physical presentation? Or a neo pronoun that I've never used enough to get comfortable with? Or switch back and forth every time I refer to him because that makes me grammatically VERY uncomfortable? (Despite my confusion, I appreciate and am amused by this approach.)
I'm also delighted by how quickly language has evolved. I remember when people were making a big deal that we should use the cludgy "he or she" to replace the default "he" as subject. Now, using "they/them" when gender is unknown feels so _natural_, with a slight annoyance that it's ambiguous between "this anecdote is about somebody whose gender is irrelevant" and "this is referring to a specific person who identifies as nonbinary".
posted by Metasyntactic at 1:07 AM on November 28, 2023
you know what i want? an entirely neutral pronoun, that does not indicate gender, sex, or even species
Honestly, this is why I am so enamored with Spivak pronouns (species bit aside). Both Elverson and Spivak (and probably the like three other people who came up with the same idea) were fighting a default masculine. In my head it's very "You're going to complain about the singular they? Well fuck you, I made my own pronoun".
(In my head, most of the older neopronouns are in a similar vein--"we are not specifying a gender here" and, thus, appropriate for anyone, albeit generally an unspecified person--but it wouldn't shock me if this is a narrative proto-trans-me projected onto them, vs how others understand then.)
posted by hoyland at 4:48 AM on November 28, 2023
Honestly, this is why I am so enamored with Spivak pronouns (species bit aside). Both Elverson and Spivak (and probably the like three other people who came up with the same idea) were fighting a default masculine. In my head it's very "You're going to complain about the singular they? Well fuck you, I made my own pronoun".
(In my head, most of the older neopronouns are in a similar vein--"we are not specifying a gender here" and, thus, appropriate for anyone, albeit generally an unspecified person--but it wouldn't shock me if this is a narrative proto-trans-me projected onto them, vs how others understand then.)
posted by hoyland at 4:48 AM on November 28, 2023
The Hungarian language (Magyar) does not have gendered pronouns. There's the third person singular "ő" for "he/she/it", and the third person plural "ők" for "they". Simple and elegant!
posted by trip and a half at 5:11 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by trip and a half at 5:11 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pronouns are unexpectedly hard.
QFT. And thanks for posting the site, which is clearly going to provide a few hours of learning.
Question: what should we do in languages where there are genders structurally baked in?
I had this discussion just a few nights ago with some people who are considerably younger than I, but they didn't have a solution.
In my case the language is Portuguese; it is a Latin-based "Romance" language with gendering built in.
ele = him/they / ela = her/they
eles = them (males or mixed group) / elas = them (females (yes it's patriarchal))
O = "the" for a gendered male word (i.e. O carro = the car) / A = "the" for a gendered female word (i.e. A casa = the house)
How to refer to someone whose English pronouns are they/them?
(I expect this is a similar issue in the language family (Spanish/French/Italian etc.) with a possible resolution in Germanic languages as they have a "neutral" case (der/die/das)).
posted by chavenet at 5:53 AM on November 28, 2023
QFT. And thanks for posting the site, which is clearly going to provide a few hours of learning.
Question: what should we do in languages where there are genders structurally baked in?
I had this discussion just a few nights ago with some people who are considerably younger than I, but they didn't have a solution.
In my case the language is Portuguese; it is a Latin-based "Romance" language with gendering built in.
ele = him/they / ela = her/they
eles = them (males or mixed group) / elas = them (females (yes it's patriarchal))
O = "the" for a gendered male word (i.e. O carro = the car) / A = "the" for a gendered female word (i.e. A casa = the house)
How to refer to someone whose English pronouns are they/them?
(I expect this is a similar issue in the language family (Spanish/French/Italian etc.) with a possible resolution in Germanic languages as they have a "neutral" case (der/die/das)).
posted by chavenet at 5:53 AM on November 28, 2023
Question: what should we do in languages where there are genders structurally baked in?
Depends on the language. This is a thing people have been grappling with for a long time and different languages have done different things (and the solution for individuals is not always the same as the solution for avoiding a default masculine). When it comes to usage for/by/about individuals, it's a question best left to queer and trans communities using that language.
posted by hoyland at 6:39 AM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Depends on the language. This is a thing people have been grappling with for a long time and different languages have done different things (and the solution for individuals is not always the same as the solution for avoiding a default masculine). When it comes to usage for/by/about individuals, it's a question best left to queer and trans communities using that language.
posted by hoyland at 6:39 AM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Question: what should we do in languages where there are genders structurally baked in?The answers, as always, lie with the trans/nonbinary/feminist communities that speak those languages, and in many cases are still emerging, evolving quickly, or facing bigoted (fr) opposition even as dictionaries start to recognise words which gain widespread traction. Especially in languages where many words of a sentence agree with a person's gender, the language people have come up with may not yet have a neat prewritten summary in English.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 6:47 AM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Okay, here goes. And so I'm not misunderstood, I'm going to lay out the facts as clearly as I can.
• I am trans. I am a transfeminine person who uses she/her pronouns.
• I have friends, whom I respect and about whom I care deeply, who use they/them pronouns, and I always, always use they/them pronouns when referring to them, or to any other person who uses they/them pronouns, whether or not they are present, because that is the kind and respectful thing to do, and I always strive to be kind and respectful.
Am I clear? Good. Now I'll come to my actual point: I do not like the singular they*. I do not like it because it is the only pronoun that takes a different verb conjugation from its antecedent. This makes me very uncomfortable because I am autistic and among the things about which I care deeply are consistency and English grammar and vocabulary. Consider these examples, involving a hypothetical nonbinary person named Sam:
"Where is Sam?" "Sam is in the kitchen."
"Where is Sam?" "They are in the kitchen."
See the inconsistency? See the abrupt change? The singular they is the only pronoun in English that does this. Why must it be an exception? Can this discrepancy be resolved, or is it to be one more of the many, many things about which I must pretend not to care, but I do because I can't just stop caring about things, and which will continue to be a persistent stressor upon my mental health until the day I am finally enfolded in the merciful arms of Thanatos? The truth is that I want to stop worrying and love the singular they! I would even consider using it myself if I could feel comfortable with it, as I don't always feel aligned with a binary feminine identity (although it's a damn sight better for me than a binary masculine identity; that's for certain). But I can't. I just can't.
* I am very aware of the ambiguous they: "Someone left their wallet." The ambiguous they works because it obfuscates both gender and number, and because it takes no antecedent. The singular they is different, as it obfuscates gender but is limited to a single individual, and because it does take an antecedent. I am also very aware of the common belief that the singular they predates the singular you**. I do not believe this is true; I believe that people are confusing the singular they with the ambiguous they, which does have a long history. If you can show me a historical usage of the singular they, with a named antecedent, then some of my concerns will be laid to rest and I will greatly appreciate it.
** I am also very angry about the singular you. I would love to have second-person pronouns that distinguished between a single addressee and multiple addressees, but thou/thee was stolen from our linguistic heritage, so apparently we're not allowed to have that unless we invent new second-person plural pronouns such as y'all or yinz, and I'm not a member of a culture that has one of those. I envy those of you who are.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:53 AM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
• I am trans. I am a transfeminine person who uses she/her pronouns.
• I have friends, whom I respect and about whom I care deeply, who use they/them pronouns, and I always, always use they/them pronouns when referring to them, or to any other person who uses they/them pronouns, whether or not they are present, because that is the kind and respectful thing to do, and I always strive to be kind and respectful.
Am I clear? Good. Now I'll come to my actual point: I do not like the singular they*. I do not like it because it is the only pronoun that takes a different verb conjugation from its antecedent. This makes me very uncomfortable because I am autistic and among the things about which I care deeply are consistency and English grammar and vocabulary. Consider these examples, involving a hypothetical nonbinary person named Sam:
"Where is Sam?" "Sam is in the kitchen."
"Where is Sam?" "They are in the kitchen."
See the inconsistency? See the abrupt change? The singular they is the only pronoun in English that does this. Why must it be an exception? Can this discrepancy be resolved, or is it to be one more of the many, many things about which I must pretend not to care, but I do because I can't just stop caring about things, and which will continue to be a persistent stressor upon my mental health until the day I am finally enfolded in the merciful arms of Thanatos? The truth is that I want to stop worrying and love the singular they! I would even consider using it myself if I could feel comfortable with it, as I don't always feel aligned with a binary feminine identity (although it's a damn sight better for me than a binary masculine identity; that's for certain). But I can't. I just can't.
* I am very aware of the ambiguous they: "Someone left their wallet." The ambiguous they works because it obfuscates both gender and number, and because it takes no antecedent. The singular they is different, as it obfuscates gender but is limited to a single individual, and because it does take an antecedent. I am also very aware of the common belief that the singular they predates the singular you**. I do not believe this is true; I believe that people are confusing the singular they with the ambiguous they, which does have a long history. If you can show me a historical usage of the singular they, with a named antecedent, then some of my concerns will be laid to rest and I will greatly appreciate it.
** I am also very angry about the singular you. I would love to have second-person pronouns that distinguished between a single addressee and multiple addressees, but thou/thee was stolen from our linguistic heritage, so apparently we're not allowed to have that unless we invent new second-person plural pronouns such as y'all or yinz, and I'm not a member of a culture that has one of those. I envy those of you who are.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:53 AM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
hoyland, polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice, thanks for the answers & links. much to think about there.
posted by chavenet at 7:11 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by chavenet at 7:11 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This comment concerns those who refer to themselves with the pronoun "I", a word which makes me very angry. When using this allegedly-singular pronoun, such people ignore the standard present-singular form of "to be", replacing what "is" with the ridiculous "am". "I am"? What is this new third-number, the reflexingular? Not satisfied with this linguistic vandalism, some such neologism-users go so far as to break the English language's standard contraction for negation of the most common verbs, "not" -> "n't". Instead of allowing this "am" form to negate neatly as "amn't" they opt to preserve the "not" in full while contracting their two nonsense words - "I" and "am" into the obscene "I'm", which they often write with a capital letter even in the middle of a sentence. This usage has been spreading uncontrollably, and it pains me every time to watch an "I'm" being broadcast on television. It even seems to have developed a cult following - every day my so-called friends on the internet are posting the letters "I" and "m" and apostrophes, and even - horror of horrors - pictures of people dressed up as these characters from an "I'm".
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:13 AM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:13 AM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
[It's a long time since I've woken up the self-righteously prescriptivist part of my brain but I think they had fun writing that]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:16 AM on November 28, 2023
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:16 AM on November 28, 2023
If you can show me a historical usage of the singular they, with a named antecedent, then some of my concerns will be laid to rest and I will greatly appreciate it.
Named antecedent might be hard, but referential uses are common, even though we usually talk about the singular they as if it's used only for generic people (i.e. as opposed to a default masculine).
Honestly, though, Faint of Butt, I'd try to let this one go. Languages are weird and messy and evolve in ways that don't necessarily make sense. (Like... why does English maintain grammatical gender distinct from person gender in very specific cases (baby and ship being the obvious ones--pay attention and you'll hear someone call a baby it)? Why does German distinguish the second person formal (both singular and plural) from the third person plural only in capitalization)?)
I'll admit to disliking the zie/hir set because of interference from German (it started as sie, but then people noticed the collision).
posted by hoyland at 8:24 AM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Named antecedent might be hard, but referential uses are common, even though we usually talk about the singular they as if it's used only for generic people (i.e. as opposed to a default masculine).
Honestly, though, Faint of Butt, I'd try to let this one go. Languages are weird and messy and evolve in ways that don't necessarily make sense. (Like... why does English maintain grammatical gender distinct from person gender in very specific cases (baby and ship being the obvious ones--pay attention and you'll hear someone call a baby it)? Why does German distinguish the second person formal (both singular and plural) from the third person plural only in capitalization)?)
I'll admit to disliking the zie/hir set because of interference from German (it started as sie, but then people noticed the collision).
posted by hoyland at 8:24 AM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
“I” is actually incredibly weird. “I’m a MeFite, aren’t I?” That’s a construction I grew up using, and it wasn’t until like five years ago that I thought: what the hell?
posted by eirias at 8:32 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by eirias at 8:32 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
You're almost onto something there, polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice. The inconsistency of "she isn't"/"we aren't"/"they aren't"/"you aren't"/"I'm not" is very weird, but "I amn't" isn't pronounceable in modern English. I've seen "I ain't" proposed as a standardized alternative.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:46 AM on November 28, 2023
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:46 AM on November 28, 2023
"Amn't" is in fact a real thing in Scotland and Ireland, including in the 20th and 21st centuries. Language is a beautiful, varied, and irregular mess.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:53 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 8:53 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thank you so much for posting this! And thanks for the ki/kin mention. Pronouns.page added it recently; I was the last of several people to ask them about it.
I have been practicing my friend's kid's pronouns by talking with my friend _about_ her kid, which has other benefits (but also dangers, of course).
lapolla: ki/kin is there for you!
posted by amtho at 8:57 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have been practicing my friend's kid's pronouns by talking with my friend _about_ her kid, which has other benefits (but also dangers, of course).
lapolla: ki/kin is there for you!
posted by amtho at 8:57 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Amn't" is in fact a real thing in Scotland and Ireland, including in the 20th and 21st centuries.
Then I've been misled, and that makes me even more furious.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:57 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Then I've been misled, and that makes me even more furious.
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:57 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Real-life occasional user of "amn't" here!
posted by Klipspringer at 9:13 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Klipspringer at 9:13 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
https://pronouns.page/ has options in 17 languages, including Portuguese (Add whatever pronoun you're looking for after the slash. I picked the first one from the chart in the wikipedia page linked above). Pronouns.page runs on volunteers, so if anyone wants to contribute something that's missing, go for it.
pay attention and you'll hear someone call a baby it
I wonder if this has to do with not wanting to get attached to a baby before they make it out of the dangerous baby stage of life.
“I” is actually incredibly weird. “I’m a MeFite, aren’t I?”
aye
posted by aniola at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
pay attention and you'll hear someone call a baby it
I wonder if this has to do with not wanting to get attached to a baby before they make it out of the dangerous baby stage of life.
“I” is actually incredibly weird. “I’m a MeFite, aren’t I?”
aye
posted by aniola at 9:19 AM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wonder if this has to do with not wanting to get attached to a baby before they make it out of the dangerous baby stage of life.
Nah, baby is/was quite consistently neuter across Germanic languages. Grammatical gender really isn't person gender. They happen to sometimes coincide, but that's it. (It's like when people comment on girl being neuter in German. Mädchen is a diminutive (of Magd which is gone in modern German) and diminutives are neuter, just because.) There's a whole fascinating arc of noun genders in Germanic languages (with a geographic pattern!), where over the course of centuries they go (IIRC) from an animate/inanimate gender, to (what gets called) masculine and neuter, then the feminine emerges and then collapses. Dutch is actually in the middle of losing its feminine at the moment. But other than some variation in what moves to the feminine (this has the geographic pattern that I can never remember), the noun genders tend to remain consistent across languages if you look at the same "stage" of the arc.
posted by hoyland at 9:33 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nah, baby is/was quite consistently neuter across Germanic languages. Grammatical gender really isn't person gender. They happen to sometimes coincide, but that's it. (It's like when people comment on girl being neuter in German. Mädchen is a diminutive (of Magd which is gone in modern German) and diminutives are neuter, just because.) There's a whole fascinating arc of noun genders in Germanic languages (with a geographic pattern!), where over the course of centuries they go (IIRC) from an animate/inanimate gender, to (what gets called) masculine and neuter, then the feminine emerges and then collapses. Dutch is actually in the middle of losing its feminine at the moment. But other than some variation in what moves to the feminine (this has the geographic pattern that I can never remember), the noun genders tend to remain consistent across languages if you look at the same "stage" of the arc.
posted by hoyland at 9:33 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Of course I start out defensively, being straight and cis, and also wanting to get pronouns right -- but this is the aspect of pronouns I struggle with, which I haven't seen addressed:
If you tell me your pronouns, you're not telling me so that I use them when speaking to you.
Pronouns are for when I am speaking with other people about you and you are, generally, not here.
if I'm talking about you and telling a friend that your name is "Gary" -- people usually understand what a name is, even if I refer to you as "Asterisk" they'll generally get it , and if you now go by 'she' or 'he', regardless of what you were assigned at birth, a stranger generally understands those and it doesn't take clarification.
But, if I have to explain the pronoun "zim" or that you want to be called "it", now I'm carrying the weight of having to explain to one casual acquaintance the new definition of words that are integral to the life of another casual acquaintance, and I'm a little uncomfortable being given that responsibility. If I get it wrong now not only am I incorrect, but I spread the same error to another person.
And the odds of me getting it incorrect are there. My only apology is that I'm old and stupid, but it's not out of malice. I've always used the singular 'they' from time to time so I'm just trying to use that more in general, even if I'm pretty sure you're cis, to miss the minefields a bit more.
I'm sure it's the same if you're "William" and like to be called "Will", but I mishear it once and call you "Bill" to someone, who now calls you "Bill" too -- some people are fine with casually correcting these errors, some people block you and write you off completely for such an insult.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:35 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you tell me your pronouns, you're not telling me so that I use them when speaking to you.
Pronouns are for when I am speaking with other people about you and you are, generally, not here.
if I'm talking about you and telling a friend that your name is "Gary" -- people usually understand what a name is, even if I refer to you as "Asterisk" they'll generally get it , and if you now go by 'she' or 'he', regardless of what you were assigned at birth, a stranger generally understands those and it doesn't take clarification.
But, if I have to explain the pronoun "zim" or that you want to be called "it", now I'm carrying the weight of having to explain to one casual acquaintance the new definition of words that are integral to the life of another casual acquaintance, and I'm a little uncomfortable being given that responsibility. If I get it wrong now not only am I incorrect, but I spread the same error to another person.
And the odds of me getting it incorrect are there. My only apology is that I'm old and stupid, but it's not out of malice. I've always used the singular 'they' from time to time so I'm just trying to use that more in general, even if I'm pretty sure you're cis, to miss the minefields a bit more.
I'm sure it's the same if you're "William" and like to be called "Will", but I mishear it once and call you "Bill" to someone, who now calls you "Bill" too -- some people are fine with casually correcting these errors, some people block you and write you off completely for such an insult.
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:35 AM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
But, if I have to explain the pronoun "zim" or that you want to be called "it", now I'm carrying the weight of having to explain to one casual acquaintance the new definition of words that are integral to the life of another casual acquaintance, and I'm a little uncomfortable being given that responsibility.
But that's the best part of human interaction! You're privy to a new fact, which you now have the opportunity to share with others! And then they can share it in turn, and so on until everyone knows! If, upon reflection, you think that your memory may be faulty, just preface it with a disclaimer. "I may be misremembering this, but..." Nothing brings me more joy than conveying information! Don't you get it?
I've yet to meet anyone who calls themself "they" who actually seems non-binary: every such person I've met was clearly female.
Friend, you are treading into some very dangerous conversational territory, and for your own sake I strongly urge you to back up and find a different route.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:44 AM on November 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
But that's the best part of human interaction! You're privy to a new fact, which you now have the opportunity to share with others! And then they can share it in turn, and so on until everyone knows! If, upon reflection, you think that your memory may be faulty, just preface it with a disclaimer. "I may be misremembering this, but..." Nothing brings me more joy than conveying information! Don't you get it?
I've yet to meet anyone who calls themself "they" who actually seems non-binary: every such person I've met was clearly female.
Friend, you are treading into some very dangerous conversational territory, and for your own sake I strongly urge you to back up and find a different route.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:44 AM on November 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
> I've yet to meet anyone who calls themself "they" who actually seems non-binary: every such person I've met was clearly female.
In case personal testimony will help you broaden your perspective: I know an awful lot of people who were probably called "he" as a child but request "they" now. And, their presentation varies dramatically (gentle reminder: presentation is not gender identity) from pretty traditionally masculine to goth-y to androgynous to preppy to femme.
Heck, I don't even know whether people are choosing their pronouns based on identity, or political statements, or something else entirely. It doesn't matter, in the same way that you wouldn't question why somebody prefers a different name -- referring to people how they want to be referred is a pretty basic courtesy.
posted by Metasyntactic at 11:03 AM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In case personal testimony will help you broaden your perspective: I know an awful lot of people who were probably called "he" as a child but request "they" now. And, their presentation varies dramatically (gentle reminder: presentation is not gender identity) from pretty traditionally masculine to goth-y to androgynous to preppy to femme.
Heck, I don't even know whether people are choosing their pronouns based on identity, or political statements, or something else entirely. It doesn't matter, in the same way that you wouldn't question why somebody prefers a different name -- referring to people how they want to be referred is a pretty basic courtesy.
posted by Metasyntactic at 11:03 AM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In case personal testimony will help you broaden your perspective: I know an awful lot of people who were probably called "he" as a child but request "they" now.
I don't doubt you: like I said, small sample size.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:43 AM on November 28, 2023
I don't doubt you: like I said, small sample size.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:43 AM on November 28, 2023
Mod note: One comment and its reply deleted. Gender identity and gender expression are two separate things and people with non-binary identities don't have to look a certain way for their identity to be respected and valid.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:56 AM on November 28, 2023
posted by loup (staff) at 11:56 AM on November 28, 2023
I rarely use intentionally gendered pronouns outside of close friendships and family relationships (I am a fan of the singular non-gendered they despite the is/are incongruency). Even when addressing a person directly or when they are in the room and part of the conversation, I'll refer to people by their first name consistently, even if it gets a bit clunky.
When telling anecdotes about someone not known to my conversational partner, I try to always use they/their because almost always their gender, whether trans or cis or unknown by me, is not relevant to the story. I talk about niblings, not nieces or nephews, or spouses and not husbands or wives (I might have an extreme aversion to gendered terms of reference in marriages due to how this plays out in the Korean language).
I have also let my students know that I use the singular they when referring to the authors of the readings I assign them. It just seems very unnecessary to guess the gender of academics and activists and other people that we've never met.
But.... like some others in this thread.... I have a hard time not gendering the cats. They are littermates but I struggle to use the word sibling. Instead I always scold them "Stop pestering your brother!"
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
When telling anecdotes about someone not known to my conversational partner, I try to always use they/their because almost always their gender, whether trans or cis or unknown by me, is not relevant to the story. I talk about niblings, not nieces or nephews, or spouses and not husbands or wives (I might have an extreme aversion to gendered terms of reference in marriages due to how this plays out in the Korean language).
I have also let my students know that I use the singular they when referring to the authors of the readings I assign them. It just seems very unnecessary to guess the gender of academics and activists and other people that we've never met.
But.... like some others in this thread.... I have a hard time not gendering the cats. They are littermates but I struggle to use the word sibling. Instead I always scold them "Stop pestering your brother!"
posted by spamandkimchi at 12:07 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I studied Danish for a semester abroad in undergrad. The word "kæreste" means romantic partner and is ungendered, and I really, really like that.
In day to day conversation, I use "they/them" for just about everybody - because why should anybody tell me their pronouns? It's not my business unless they feel safe and want to share them. I hope that I'm not offending others by using they/them, and if they are offended, they tell me the pronouns they want me to use.
Also, this imgur just makes me happy and seems relevant to this conversation, so I thought I would share:
https://imgur.com/t/aww/mGEQi8h
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:16 PM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
In day to day conversation, I use "they/them" for just about everybody - because why should anybody tell me their pronouns? It's not my business unless they feel safe and want to share them. I hope that I'm not offending others by using they/them, and if they are offended, they tell me the pronouns they want me to use.
Also, this imgur just makes me happy and seems relevant to this conversation, so I thought I would share:
https://imgur.com/t/aww/mGEQi8h
posted by Ms Vegetable at 12:16 PM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I might have an extreme aversion to gendered terms of reference in marriages due to how this plays out in the Korean language).
This sounds interesting, can you explain?
I have no problem ignoring pronouns for my dog and cat, they have so many fun nicknames seems like a waste! But its endlessly hilarious how friends and relatives stumble over themselves trying to get the pronouns right. There's a strong gendered coding for dogs and cats, at least in my west coast USA experience, and some people can't wrap their heads around a female dog and a male cat.
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:29 PM on November 28, 2023
This sounds interesting, can you explain?
I have no problem ignoring pronouns for my dog and cat, they have so many fun nicknames seems like a waste! But its endlessly hilarious how friends and relatives stumble over themselves trying to get the pronouns right. There's a strong gendered coding for dogs and cats, at least in my west coast USA experience, and some people can't wrap their heads around a female dog and a male cat.
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:29 PM on November 28, 2023
Pronouns.page runs on volunteers
Soylent Green are people!
posted by chavenet at 12:31 PM on November 28, 2023
Soylent Green are people!
posted by chavenet at 12:31 PM on November 28, 2023
(I might have an extreme aversion to gendered terms of reference in marriages due to how this plays out in the Korean language).
i always laugh when uninformed westerners say (somewhat correctly) that korean doesn't have gendered pronouns and thus the language is a model for non-gendering. (the pronoun that translates to "she" is "그녀" and is a fairly modern construction combining the previous agendered "that person" + female)
the gendering is pretty much everywhere else. in how people refer to each other in marriage (i mean, one of the terms for *wife* can be read as meaning "inside", as in "inside the house"), in kinship terms (which have the delightful effect of gendering the speaker, too, which is why it's so fun in queer spaces, and now, occasionally, in workplaces that that boundary is bent and broken), and even in the vocabulary choices and formality registers expected.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:36 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
i always laugh when uninformed westerners say (somewhat correctly) that korean doesn't have gendered pronouns and thus the language is a model for non-gendering. (the pronoun that translates to "she" is "그녀" and is a fairly modern construction combining the previous agendered "that person" + female)
the gendering is pretty much everywhere else. in how people refer to each other in marriage (i mean, one of the terms for *wife* can be read as meaning "inside", as in "inside the house"), in kinship terms (which have the delightful effect of gendering the speaker, too, which is why it's so fun in queer spaces, and now, occasionally, in workplaces that that boundary is bent and broken), and even in the vocabulary choices and formality registers expected.
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:36 PM on November 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
as far as gendering cats goes, i find it easy not to gender mine, i just use "asshole" and "bastard" and "adorable little shit" for it almost all the time
actually, thinking about it, one term i use is literally the korean term for "dog whelp"/"개새끼", which makes even less sense
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:38 PM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
actually, thinking about it, one term i use is literally the korean term for "dog whelp"/"개새끼", which makes even less sense
posted by i used to be someone else at 12:38 PM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I studied Danish for a semester abroad in undergrad. The word "kæreste" means romantic partner and is ungendered, and I really, really like that.
To reiterate the "grammatical gender is not person gender" point, when I took Danish (in the US using a textbook meant for teaching Danish as a second language in Denmark, which was a whole fascinating thing), rather than use "common" and "neuter" (which is how Danish noun genders are typically called in English), the textbook used "N-word" and T-word", i.e. whether the indefinite article is en or et. (Much like declensions in Latin.)
posted by hoyland at 1:05 PM on November 28, 2023
To reiterate the "grammatical gender is not person gender" point, when I took Danish (in the US using a textbook meant for teaching Danish as a second language in Denmark, which was a whole fascinating thing), rather than use "common" and "neuter" (which is how Danish noun genders are typically called in English), the textbook used "N-word" and T-word", i.e. whether the indefinite article is en or et. (Much like declensions in Latin.)
posted by hoyland at 1:05 PM on November 28, 2023
Until recently, I defaulted to using “they” when referring to someone I did not know/someone whose pronouns were unknown to me. When I learn the person’s pronouns, I use those. I did that one day at work when I needed help with a customer’s issue and explained the situation to my coworker. The customer heard me refer to her using “they” and started yelling at me while saying she was not multiple people and then said I offended her.
Since then, I’ve been told by several nonbinary acquaintances that using “they” instead of a gendered pronoun (when the pronoun is unknown) is bad practice.
At this point, I don’t know what to do.
posted by Four-Eyed Girl at 3:46 PM on November 28, 2023
Since then, I’ve been told by several nonbinary acquaintances that using “they” instead of a gendered pronoun (when the pronoun is unknown) is bad practice.
At this point, I don’t know what to do.
posted by Four-Eyed Girl at 3:46 PM on November 28, 2023
Since then, I’ve been told by several nonbinary acquaintances that using “they” instead of a gendered pronoun (when the pronoun is unknown) is bad practice.
To clarify, your non-binary acquaintances told you that you should use a gendered pronoun for a person of unknown gender? That you should just - guess? Based on ... what?
I would also be confused in that situation because it's extremely odd. It's something that I've never encountered before and my circles are heavily queer, including many non-binary people. Preferred solutions to the "unknown pronoun" problem do vary, but "they" is by far the gender-neutral preference and I have never heard someone suggest that you should just gender everybody you don't know. Where do you live? Are you sure this is what you were told?
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:51 PM on November 28, 2023
To clarify, your non-binary acquaintances told you that you should use a gendered pronoun for a person of unknown gender? That you should just - guess? Based on ... what?
I would also be confused in that situation because it's extremely odd. It's something that I've never encountered before and my circles are heavily queer, including many non-binary people. Preferred solutions to the "unknown pronoun" problem do vary, but "they" is by far the gender-neutral preference and I have never heard someone suggest that you should just gender everybody you don't know. Where do you live? Are you sure this is what you were told?
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:51 PM on November 28, 2023
This is brilliant and useful to me: I often use neopronouns when writing SFF.
posted by signal at 4:52 PM on November 28, 2023
posted by signal at 4:52 PM on November 28, 2023
Question: what should we do in languages where there are genders structurally baked in?
In Chile, we use "e" instead of "a" or "o":
Les alumnes están enojades.
My students (20ish) can do it fluently. Us old people have more trouble, but it's generally accepted/expected among liberal young people.
posted by signal at 5:04 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In Chile, we use "e" instead of "a" or "o":
Les alumnes están enojades.
My students (20ish) can do it fluently. Us old people have more trouble, but it's generally accepted/expected among liberal young people.
posted by signal at 5:04 PM on November 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
To reiterate the "grammatical gender is not person gender" point
However, it's important not to go too far in the other direction.
In most (but not all) Indo-European languages with grammatical gender, there's a clear correlation between the grammatical gender of a word and the social gender of people it refers to. There are exceptions - but the reason why the same exceptions (such as German "mädchen") are always brought up in these discussions is because they are exceptions.
Online, you'll come across a lot of reactionaries who insist that grammatical gender and social gender have nothing to do with each other, and that inclusive language is therefore stupid and invalid, political correctness going too far, or - most frustratingly - anglophone imperialism. They'll point to exceptions; they'll tell you it's stupid to think that a chair has gender; they'll bring up languages where the noun class system has nothing to do with gender as though those languages determine how other languages work.
But the fact remains that in languages like French, German, and Russian, nouns referring to female people will tend to fall into one class, while nouns referring to male people will tend to fall into another. It's a real challenge that non-binary and other people who wish to avoid specifying a binary gender find themselves with, not some imaginary invention of woke idiots who don't understand or speak them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:10 PM on November 28, 2023
However, it's important not to go too far in the other direction.
In most (but not all) Indo-European languages with grammatical gender, there's a clear correlation between the grammatical gender of a word and the social gender of people it refers to. There are exceptions - but the reason why the same exceptions (such as German "mädchen") are always brought up in these discussions is because they are exceptions.
Online, you'll come across a lot of reactionaries who insist that grammatical gender and social gender have nothing to do with each other, and that inclusive language is therefore stupid and invalid, political correctness going too far, or - most frustratingly - anglophone imperialism. They'll point to exceptions; they'll tell you it's stupid to think that a chair has gender; they'll bring up languages where the noun class system has nothing to do with gender as though those languages determine how other languages work.
But the fact remains that in languages like French, German, and Russian, nouns referring to female people will tend to fall into one class, while nouns referring to male people will tend to fall into another. It's a real challenge that non-binary and other people who wish to avoid specifying a binary gender find themselves with, not some imaginary invention of woke idiots who don't understand or speak them.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:10 PM on November 28, 2023
Linguist John McWhorter (who I think used to write occasionally for Language Log) had an essay in NYT today about singular they.
posted by eirias at 5:42 PM on November 28, 2023
posted by eirias at 5:42 PM on November 28, 2023
In most (but not all) Indo-European languages with grammatical gender, there's a clear correlation between the grammatical gender of a word and the social gender of people it refers to.
True, but the tendency is person gender implies grammatical gender, but not the other way round. I spent a mind-boggling amount of time at a previous job trying to explain to people that Fachkraft is feminine. The idea that a noun could be feminine, refer to a person, and not carry information about the person's gender just did not compute.
posted by hoyland at 8:22 PM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
True, but the tendency is person gender implies grammatical gender, but not the other way round. I spent a mind-boggling amount of time at a previous job trying to explain to people that Fachkraft is feminine. The idea that a noun could be feminine, refer to a person, and not carry information about the person's gender just did not compute.
posted by hoyland at 8:22 PM on November 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
but it's just in the rules of german?
-kraft and -schaft are die, basically always because kraft and schaft are feminin (so the nickname for the german men's fussball team is "die mannschaft"); essentially the gender almost always follows the terminal noun in a compound
-ling, -ich, -ant are der, basically always
-ung, -heit, -keit are die, basically always
-chen, -lein, -icht are das, basically always
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:26 PM on November 28, 2023
-kraft and -schaft are die, basically always because kraft and schaft are feminin (so the nickname for the german men's fussball team is "die mannschaft"); essentially the gender almost always follows the terminal noun in a compound
-ling, -ich, -ant are der, basically always
-ung, -heit, -keit are die, basically always
-chen, -lein, -icht are das, basically always
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:26 PM on November 28, 2023
In Spanish, "mi pareja" (my significant other) is always female, regardless of the gender of the person it refers to. So is "una pareja" (a couple).
posted by signal at 3:05 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 3:05 AM on November 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
but it's just in the rules of german?
And yet... First, I had to break it to them that German nouns for people often come in a masculine/feminine pair that follows person gender. Having grasped that, they just could not comprehend that all nouns referring to people don't work that way.
essentially the gender almost always follows the terminal noun in a compound
Afaik, compounds always follow the terminal noun. The examples below are the suffix rules/tendencies, rather than parts of compounds. (For those who've followed this whole German tangent, -chen and -lein show up in diminutives.)
posted by hoyland at 6:55 AM on November 29, 2023
And yet... First, I had to break it to them that German nouns for people often come in a masculine/feminine pair that follows person gender. Having grasped that, they just could not comprehend that all nouns referring to people don't work that way.
essentially the gender almost always follows the terminal noun in a compound
Afaik, compounds always follow the terminal noun. The examples below are the suffix rules/tendencies, rather than parts of compounds. (For those who've followed this whole German tangent, -chen and -lein show up in diminutives.)
posted by hoyland at 6:55 AM on November 29, 2023
Since then, I’ve been told by several nonbinary acquaintances that using “they” instead of a gendered pronoun (when the pronoun is unknown) is bad practice.
It's extremely common for cis people to mysteriously start using 'they' when they encounter a person they perceive as trans or gender non-conforming and, I don't know, claim they're being polite or something. It's decidedly not subtle when you're on the receiving end. Even if you're not doing this, you're potentially putting trans people in the position of requesting you misgender them (i.e. the general problem with demanding pronouns from people willy nilly). It hurts (me) a hell of lot more to ask to be misgendered than it does if you're just wrong.
posted by hoyland at 3:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's extremely common for cis people to mysteriously start using 'they' when they encounter a person they perceive as trans or gender non-conforming and, I don't know, claim they're being polite or something. It's decidedly not subtle when you're on the receiving end. Even if you're not doing this, you're potentially putting trans people in the position of requesting you misgender them (i.e. the general problem with demanding pronouns from people willy nilly). It hurts (me) a hell of lot more to ask to be misgendered than it does if you're just wrong.
posted by hoyland at 3:20 PM on November 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
also, as a sidebar, it's also extremely common for people to suddenly start degendering trans people with known or unsurprising/expected pronouns and use "they" when they hear anything remotely negative about them because it plays into cultural prejudices about how weird and awful they are
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:16 AM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by i used to be someone else at 8:16 AM on November 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
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posted by hoyland at 3:39 PM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]