Size Matters, Also Thrust
January 12, 2024 2:18 PM Subscribe
I thought the title read "Also Trust", and thought yeah, that's definitely a part of any, er, size-related activity.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:00 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:00 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Bezos & Musk are looking at these pics like, "naw, needs to be even more phallic! put some balls on em! a foreskin! pubes!"
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:06 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:06 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
That's neat! It would be nice if you could sort them by kg-to-leo and/or cost per kg-to-leo
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:18 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:18 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
I wanna know what's the shortest rocket to achieve escape velocity.
posted by clawsoon at 3:24 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 3:24 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
That's neat! It would be nice if you could sort them by kg-to-leo and/or cost per kg-to-leo
There's a huge table on Wikipedia that already has this.
I wanna know what's the shortest rocket to achieve escape velocity.
While there was a funny looking stubby rocket from China that just made its debut yesterday, the table I linked to above shows that it'll be one of the smallsat launchers, like RocketLab's Electron or countless Chinese vehicles. Note that Pegasus and others are carried up to 40,000 feet or so on an aircraft before being lit. And I'm assuming you mean escaping up into LEO; if you meant literally escape velocity from Earth and thus interplanetary flight, then you'd have to refine whether the Moon qualifies, or do you mean all the way out of the Earth-Moon system. That's a much smaller club of course, but RocketLab aims to get there pretty soon.
posted by intermod at 3:43 PM on January 12 [5 favorites]
There's a huge table on Wikipedia that already has this.
I wanna know what's the shortest rocket to achieve escape velocity.
While there was a funny looking stubby rocket from China that just made its debut yesterday, the table I linked to above shows that it'll be one of the smallsat launchers, like RocketLab's Electron or countless Chinese vehicles. Note that Pegasus and others are carried up to 40,000 feet or so on an aircraft before being lit. And I'm assuming you mean escaping up into LEO; if you meant literally escape velocity from Earth and thus interplanetary flight, then you'd have to refine whether the Moon qualifies, or do you mean all the way out of the Earth-Moon system. That's a much smaller club of course, but RocketLab aims to get there pretty soon.
posted by intermod at 3:43 PM on January 12 [5 favorites]
The Estes mosquito.
posted by clavdivs at 3:46 PM on January 12 [12 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 3:46 PM on January 12 [12 favorites]
And I'm assuming you mean escaping up into LEO; if you meant literally escape velocity from Earth and thus interplanetary flight, then you'd have to refine whether the Moon qualifies, or do you mean all the way out of the Earth-Moon system.
Definitely one or both of the last two categories. I assume (wrongly?) that most of these can make it to LEO. I wanna know which ones can make it to the moon, or beyond.
posted by clawsoon at 4:03 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Definitely one or both of the last two categories. I assume (wrongly?) that most of these can make it to LEO. I wanna know which ones can make it to the moon, or beyond.
posted by clawsoon at 4:03 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
One of my favorite World Book Encyclopedia articles growing up was the one that had a bunch of images of all the different rockets used for launch vehicles. I would look at the humble Scout and imagine that it wasn't *so* big and maybe I could build one myself.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:10 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 4:10 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Not what was asked I guess, but since it came up, the smallest orbital launcher is the Japanese SS-520-5. 4kg to LEO on a 3 ton, 9 metre launcher. That's 9 metres in height; you could lay it down across the diameter of a Saturn V!
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 4:10 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 4:10 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
But which one looks the coolest? Definitely not Starship or the N1.
Starship looks like a bad retro design and ridiculously long for no good reason, while the N1 looks like it's going to tip over.
What's up with Starship being so singularly silo like? I'm an experienced Kerbalnaut, surely MOAR BOOSTERS on the sides would give a more capacity, right? Could the actual engineers and rocket scientists enlighten us with why that isn't happening with Starship?
Now the Delta IV Heavy, that's looks like a bruiser of a rocket, ready to throw anything you want up into LEO and beyond. Ariane 6 has a similar but more modern look. It's going to gently toss something into LEO, not anything as neanderthal as throwing, nono, it's way too sophisticated to do that.
The Soyuz rockets have a certain brutish and retro look, sure, but those more aerodynamic side boosters add a certain something, you know? Yes, it's all about the raw power, but the slick boosters are a great acknowledgement of science and flight.
That smart brute aesthetic is carried over in my favorite looking rocket, the Energia. Large and bold, with the smooth lines that pay respect to the science of going as fast a possible, while having the raw power to get you there in a hurry. Oh you poor sweet thing, you only flew once, but it was magnificent. Sometimes I get lost in daydreams, thinking of what could have been, if we ignore the fact there was no real practical reason for the Buran. But those boosters! Those were damn sweet and sorely missed!
Yes, I'm in therapy, why do you ask?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:14 PM on January 12 [10 favorites]
Starship looks like a bad retro design and ridiculously long for no good reason, while the N1 looks like it's going to tip over.
What's up with Starship being so singularly silo like? I'm an experienced Kerbalnaut, surely MOAR BOOSTERS on the sides would give a more capacity, right? Could the actual engineers and rocket scientists enlighten us with why that isn't happening with Starship?
Now the Delta IV Heavy, that's looks like a bruiser of a rocket, ready to throw anything you want up into LEO and beyond. Ariane 6 has a similar but more modern look. It's going to gently toss something into LEO, not anything as neanderthal as throwing, nono, it's way too sophisticated to do that.
The Soyuz rockets have a certain brutish and retro look, sure, but those more aerodynamic side boosters add a certain something, you know? Yes, it's all about the raw power, but the slick boosters are a great acknowledgement of science and flight.
That smart brute aesthetic is carried over in my favorite looking rocket, the Energia. Large and bold, with the smooth lines that pay respect to the science of going as fast a possible, while having the raw power to get you there in a hurry. Oh you poor sweet thing, you only flew once, but it was magnificent. Sometimes I get lost in daydreams, thinking of what could have been, if we ignore the fact there was no real practical reason for the Buran. But those boosters! Those were damn sweet and sorely missed!
Yes, I'm in therapy, why do you ask?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:14 PM on January 12 [10 favorites]
SpaceX have talked about finding that separating and landing side-mounted boosters was really hard during the Falcon Heavy program. They've mostly ended up expending the centre core on those flights, intentionally or otherwise, and want Starship to be fully reusable. You may also enjoy ULA's Vulcan once they start launching those with the 6 strap-on boosters.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 4:25 PM on January 12 [2 favorites]
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 4:25 PM on January 12 [2 favorites]
The smallest ground-launched rocket to reach solar escape velocity is probably not a 900-kg iron cap, propelled by a 300t atomic bomb. But it might be.
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 5:57 PM on January 12 [4 favorites]
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 5:57 PM on January 12 [4 favorites]
You may also be interested in the McDonnell Douglas DC-X , the vertical takeoff and landing prototype that actually invented all the things that Musk and SpaceX claim to have been all ground breaking and innovative about.
posted by pdoege at 5:57 PM on January 12 [4 favorites]
posted by pdoege at 5:57 PM on January 12 [4 favorites]
You may also enjoy ULA's Vulcan once they start launching those with the 6 strap-on boosters.
No. Those strap-on boosters don't appear very powerful. They look like they're muttering "I think I can, I think I can, I'm Kenough" while the main booster gently pats the various side booster heads even as it makes a note to talk to their department head about their performance.
None of above has anything to do with actual science of course, we're just talking looks
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:16 AM on January 13 [2 favorites]
No. Those strap-on boosters don't appear very powerful. They look like they're muttering "I think I can, I think I can, I'm Kenough" while the main booster gently pats the various side booster heads even as it makes a note to talk to their department head about their performance.
None of above has anything to do with actual science of course, we're just talking looks
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:16 AM on January 13 [2 favorites]
I wanna know which ones can make it to the moon, or beyond.
Going by this list, I think from 1958 to 2022 the record was held by the Juno II at 55 tons and 24m length for the partially successful Pioneer 4 mission. Rocketlab's Electron took it down to 12.5 tons and 18m length in 2022 with the CAPSTONE mission.
I couldn't find anything particularly small on interplanetary launches although, as intermod mentioned upthread, Rocketlab also have designs on Venus.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:04 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Going by this list, I think from 1958 to 2022 the record was held by the Juno II at 55 tons and 24m length for the partially successful Pioneer 4 mission. Rocketlab's Electron took it down to 12.5 tons and 18m length in 2022 with the CAPSTONE mission.
I couldn't find anything particularly small on interplanetary launches although, as intermod mentioned upthread, Rocketlab also have designs on Venus.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:04 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
N1 is the coolest looking rocket, but this site doesn’t do it justice. The N1’s cross-bracing between stages, profusion of nozzles, and weird crenellations of the lower stage give it an abundance of detail that hammer home its hugeness. Aesthetically, it seems to reference the unfared framework of a Goddard rocket mixed with the mass and complexity of a Tsiolkovsky sketch. It looked retro in the late ‘60s and is the most otherworldly launch rocket ever constructed.
posted by Headfullofair at 7:38 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
posted by Headfullofair at 7:38 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
A taller rocket has less gravity well to climb. I'm honestly surprised so many US-based launches happen at sea level rather than near Denver or even higher up. But what do I know.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:15 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:15 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
A taller rocket has less gravity well to climb.
Well, no, because the thrust is always at the bottom of it regardless of its size. Also taller generally equals heavier, requiring additional thrust.
My amateur guess is that most launches are next to the sea so that if the rocket fails it will just fall into the sea, not potentially on top of humans.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:34 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Well, no, because the thrust is always at the bottom of it regardless of its size. Also taller generally equals heavier, requiring additional thrust.
My amateur guess is that most launches are next to the sea so that if the rocket fails it will just fall into the sea, not potentially on top of humans.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:34 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Orion mk 2 would have been only 35m high, 40m in diameter. Steel frame. It would have carried 4000 tons to LEO, a crew of eight in a single stage trip to the moon and back. You can be pretty compact when then intended fuel is energy-dense plutonium bombs...
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:00 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 10:00 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
I'm honestly surprised so many US-based launches happen at sea level rather than near Denver or even higher up.
It’s about getting the a boost from being near the equator!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:27 AM on January 13 [2 favorites]
It’s about getting the a boost from being near the equator!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:27 AM on January 13 [2 favorites]
I'm still waiting impatiently for the launch systems to get built into Chimborazo / Kilimanjaro / Mt Kenya / etc.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:57 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:57 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Although, thanks to the Japanese SS-520-5, it is no longer the shortest rocket to send a payload to orbit, the UK's Black Arrow is almost certainly the stubbiest!
It also has the dubious distinction of almost certainly the only rocket ever to put a payload in orbit after the project it was part of had been cancelled. (The launcher was already at the launch site, and the UK Government agreed that it might as well be launched, despite having pulled the plug.)
posted by Major Clanger at 11:57 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
It also has the dubious distinction of almost certainly the only rocket ever to put a payload in orbit after the project it was part of had been cancelled. (The launcher was already at the launch site, and the UK Government agreed that it might as well be launched, despite having pulled the plug.)
posted by Major Clanger at 11:57 AM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Why Don't They Launch Rockets From Mountains Or The Equator?
IIRC, it's mostly the logistical difficultly of getting everything that's needed to the launch site. Equators are far away, mountains are hard to climb. Although the Europeans get the closest in Guiana.
posted by clawsoon at 12:02 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
IIRC, it's mostly the logistical difficultly of getting everything that's needed to the launch site. Equators are far away, mountains are hard to climb. Although the Europeans get the closest in Guiana.
posted by clawsoon at 12:02 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
Headline is the name of a book
The book (by Peter Alway) is fantastic. As is his poster. Get the poster if you can find it, I think it's long out of print. I have a framed one on my office wall and it gets a lot of comments.
posted by neuron at 2:56 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
The book (by Peter Alway) is fantastic. As is his poster. Get the poster if you can find it, I think it's long out of print. I have a framed one on my office wall and it gets a lot of comments.
posted by neuron at 2:56 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
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Tim Dodd at Everyday Astronaut makes entertaining and informative videos that explain these rockets and their differences. For example, here's his take on SpaceX Starship vs the Soviet N1, and here's his longform piece on how Starship will make Artemis better than Apollo. If you prefer to read text rather than watch videos, his website has excellent, thorough articles that are basically the scripts for those videos, with tons of great graphics.
posted by intermod at 2:43 PM on January 12 [5 favorites]