Joe Biden's final State of the Union (before the 2024 election)
March 7, 2024 5:01 PM Subscribe
With dismissing the also-rans and cementing a rematch few wanted, the 2024 presidential race has officially entered the general election stage -- just in time to watch Joe Biden's 2024 State of the Union address (in about an hour -- 9PM Eastern). The first before Speaker Mike Johnson (and potentially the last of his presidency), the address is especially high-stakes this year, with anxious Democrats counting on Biden to demonstrate competence, energy, and a hopeful vision amidst a slew of dismal polling. Anticipated topics include Ukraine funding, abortion and personal freedom, fighting corporate price-gouging, the GOP-blocked border bill, and a new plan to construct a humanitarian seaport in Gaza.
Alternate livestreams
Liveblogs: WaPo - NYT - ABC - NBC - CNN
Designated survivor: TBA
A look at the special guests, including "a woman from Alabama whose in vitro fertilization treatments were stopped after a state court decision, and another from Texas who was denied an abortion in the state despite what her doctors said would be health complications from the pregnancy [...] the head of the United Automobile Workers and a number of union members [...] a mayor, a police officer and the prime minister of Sweden [...] The White House had hoped that Olena Zelenska, the first lady of Ukraine, and Yulia Navalnaya, the widow of the Russian opposition leader Aleksei A. Navalny, would attend, but both said they could not make it."
The Republican response: Alabama Sen. Katie Britt
Biden’s State of the Union report card: Here’s where Biden stands on last year’s promises
Mike Johnson Tells Republicans To Behave During State Of The Union Address
The 7 Worst Instances of Bad Behavior at the State of the Union
Alternate livestreams
Liveblogs: WaPo - NYT - ABC - NBC - CNN
Designated survivor: TBA
A look at the special guests, including "a woman from Alabama whose in vitro fertilization treatments were stopped after a state court decision, and another from Texas who was denied an abortion in the state despite what her doctors said would be health complications from the pregnancy [...] the head of the United Automobile Workers and a number of union members [...] a mayor, a police officer and the prime minister of Sweden [...] The White House had hoped that Olena Zelenska, the first lady of Ukraine, and Yulia Navalnaya, the widow of the Russian opposition leader Aleksei A. Navalny, would attend, but both said they could not make it."
The Republican response: Alabama Sen. Katie Britt
Biden’s State of the Union report card: Here’s where Biden stands on last year’s promises
Mike Johnson Tells Republicans To Behave During State Of The Union Address
The 7 Worst Instances of Bad Behavior at the State of the Union
You’re killing it with the USPolitics posts, Rhaomi, thanks for this.
posted by box at 5:27 PM on March 7 [27 favorites]
posted by box at 5:27 PM on March 7 [27 favorites]
C'mon Joe. we need this from you...
posted by Windopaene at 5:28 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 5:28 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
I don't know why polls are so weird these days but I really appreciate people like Jay Kuo helping me put polls in perspective. His two latest columns on polls (sorry, Substack):
About That Poll...
To my mind, the polls are misleading, and thus harmful. I will do everything I can between now and January to focus on the only polls that actually matter: actual votes.
Thank you for posting this, Rhaomi. I appreciate all your links, and your taking the initiative to create this thread to hold us all.posted by kristi at 5:30 PM on March 7 [52 favorites]
About That Poll...
It seems no matter how often I beat the drum about the polls being unreliable, premature and wrong, it doesn’t allay people’s fears enough. ... we shouldn’t trust any polls to be predictive of the final result when there are still more than 200 days to go till the election and a whole lot of unknowns. But let me focus in particular on this poll ... I hope you come away with the same conclusion I did: that this is some data, yes, but it’s not very reliable or useful except to make big headlines.The Polls Were Wrong
...
As LSU professor and political historian Robert Mann noted,I do not believe Biden is tied with women nationally 46-46… Biden got 57% of women in 2020. You're telling me that, post-Dobbs, his support among that demo group will drop to 46? Not credible....
The NYT/Siena poll has Phillips at 12 percent support among Democrats.
Really? Because last time I checked, in the actual official contests that have been held, his actual vote haul averages 1.5 percent.
...
When the Times interviewed Latino voters, an important part of the Democratic base especially in the battleground states of Nevada and Arizona, it focused nearly completely on English-speaking respondents.
NBC News’s Adrian Carrasquillo took strong issue with the NYT’s approach.I’m a broken record on this but the problem with these numbers is the lack of interviewing Spanish-speaking Latinos. Univision had a poll of 1400 Latinos in the fall that showed Biden doubling Trump with Spanish-speakers but up only 46%-43% with English-speakers.
Super Tuesday is over, and the polls were wrong. Again.I think it's unlikely - even with gerrymandering and vote suppression - that Biden will lose, especially given voter anger post Dobbs. I'm doing my best to remember that nothing is certain, we have to give it everything we can to ensure the largest possible margin of victory, and I can't afford to be distracted or discouraged by polls or any other unhelpful narrative. We have to win, and we have to take all the many many actions that are needed to make that happen.
...
The pollsters got voter sentiment so badly wrong in Vermont that Trump actually lost the state to Haley, where he was supposed to win by around 30 points.
...
Joe Biden performed well on Tuesday, outpacing Obama’s support as an incumbent in 2012.
...
... before Super Tuesday ... Trump had underperformed the polls in Iowa by 23 points, New Hampshire by 7, South Carolina by 8 and Michigan by a whopping 20.
...
In Virginia, according to the 538 polling averages, Trump was supposed to beat Haley by 49 points. Instead he won by a little over 28 points. That’s a huge polling miss of 21 points.
In Maine, Trump was supposed to win by 58 points, according to the latest poll from the University of New Hampshire Survey Center. Instead he won by 47. Again, a double digit miss in the polls.
...
G. Elliott Morris of 538 wrote up his thoughts on primary polling, and this caught my attention:POTUS primary polls are by far the least accurate type of poll in 538’s pollster rating database going back to 1999. But error is different than bias, and when most of the polls are off in the same direction, something has gone awry.
To my mind, the polls are misleading, and thus harmful. I will do everything I can between now and January to focus on the only polls that actually matter: actual votes.
Thank you for posting this, Rhaomi. I appreciate all your links, and your taking the initiative to create this thread to hold us all.posted by kristi at 5:30 PM on March 7 [52 favorites]
Well now we get to see if he's still got enough marbles to get through a 2 hour complex speech. Obviously nothing will convince the Republicans he's not senile, but a good speech will reassure Democrats.
Yet again, this is an entirely self created problem that could easily have been avoided if the Democrats weren't so foolish and so devoted to gerontocracy.
So here's to hoping he's going to look competent and non-addled. Because he's what we're running.
posted by sotonohito at 5:53 PM on March 7 [10 favorites]
Yet again, this is an entirely self created problem that could easily have been avoided if the Democrats weren't so foolish and so devoted to gerontocracy.
So here's to hoping he's going to look competent and non-addled. Because he's what we're running.
posted by sotonohito at 5:53 PM on March 7 [10 favorites]
I think it's incumbency not gerontocracy...
posted by Windopaene at 5:56 PM on March 7 [12 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 5:56 PM on March 7 [12 favorites]
WaPo's feed is scanning the crowd -- every third person appears to be chewing Nicorette?
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:03 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:03 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
George Santos! If that's his real name.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:04 PM on March 7 [9 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:04 PM on March 7 [9 favorites]
Lol yes, I'm enjoying the extra flexibility, though probably not going to make it a regular thing.
Update: Designated survivor is reportedly Education Secretary Miguel Cardona.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:14 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Update: Designated survivor is reportedly Education Secretary Miguel Cardona.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:14 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
I think the last SotU speech I saw any significant part of was one of Gerald Ford's. I got so fed up with the cheer-leading and haven't come back.
But tonight I want to watch.
posted by MtDewd at 6:20 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
But tonight I want to watch.
posted by MtDewd at 6:20 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
WaPo's feed is scanning the crowd -- every third person appears to be chewing Nicorette?
probably zyn, which has become a partisan bugaboo
posted by dis_integration at 6:24 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
probably zyn, which has become a partisan bugaboo
posted by dis_integration at 6:24 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
i have to say, everyone in that room is so OLD. they’re all ancient
posted by dis_integration at 6:25 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:25 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
And further proof that MTG is nothing more than an attention seeking moron.
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:25 PM on March 7 [14 favorites]
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:25 PM on March 7 [14 favorites]
how does one watch if one wants to start at the beginning? is it possible to start watching [from the beginning] before the livestream is over and no longer live?
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 6:26 PM on March 7
posted by jerome powell buys his sweatbands in bulk only at 6:26 PM on March 7
C-Span, probably
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:27 PM on March 7
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:27 PM on March 7
inspired I believe by a heckle from MTG
Mike Johnson has asked the House Republicans to show respect. Let's see how long it takes before MTG ignores that plea.
posted by dannyboybell at 6:29 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Mike Johnson has asked the House Republicans to show respect. Let's see how long it takes before MTG ignores that plea.
posted by dannyboybell at 6:29 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Is it just me or did Johnson skip the whole "I have the high privilege and distinct honor of introducing the President of the United States" thing?
posted by Rhaomi at 6:29 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 6:29 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
Holy geez, Mike Johnson gives me the creeps.
posted by Crane Shot at 6:34 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
posted by Crane Shot at 6:34 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
He’s killing it
posted by bq at 6:34 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 6:34 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Holy geez, Mike Johnson gives me the creeps.
he’s doing jim halpern shit back there, i can’t stand him
posted by dis_integration at 6:36 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
he’s doing jim halpern shit back there, i can’t stand him
posted by dis_integration at 6:36 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Mike Johnson has the vibe of "I don't disagree with you but I can't be SEEN not disagreeing with you."
posted by dannyboybell at 6:36 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
posted by dannyboybell at 6:36 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
White = suffragette standard; current bodily autonomy rights struggle & it's women's history month
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:36 PM on March 7 [26 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:36 PM on March 7 [26 favorites]
Members of Democratic Women's Caucus wear white, pins for reproductive freedom at State of the Union
(The fact that there are that many women in the group should be your first clue, heh.)
posted by Rhaomi at 6:37 PM on March 7 [16 favorites]
(The fact that there are that many women in the group should be your first clue, heh.)
posted by Rhaomi at 6:37 PM on March 7 [16 favorites]
Johnson needs a better tailor, that sleeve is wonky
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:37 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:37 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
If he's smart he is going to hammer on abortion and roe v. wade like this as much as damn possible for the next 8 months.
posted by windbox at 6:38 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
posted by windbox at 6:38 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
(The fact that there are that many women in the group should be your first clue, heh.)
Plus, they're on the side that's applauding.
posted by MtDewd at 6:38 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Plus, they're on the side that's applauding.
posted by MtDewd at 6:38 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Is is just me or is Kamala looking directly into camera? If so, it's working.
posted by Sphinx at 6:40 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 6:40 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
‘Turning setback into comeback, that’s what America does,’ that’s a good line.
posted by box at 6:40 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
posted by box at 6:40 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
I do like a president whose spouse is willing to appear in public with them.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:43 PM on March 7 [57 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:43 PM on March 7 [57 favorites]
Biden: "On my watch, all federal projects are made with American products and built by American workers!"
Johnson: :I
posted by Rhaomi at 6:43 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
Johnson: :I
posted by Rhaomi at 6:43 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
"Americans pay more for prescription drugs than anywhere else in the world. It's wrong, and I'm ending it."
You're not the only one, hippybear. I'm impressed and pleasantly surprised.
posted by mmoncur at 6:50 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
You're not the only one, hippybear. I'm impressed and pleasantly surprised.
posted by mmoncur at 6:50 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
This is like something out of a movie.
posted by Jarcat at 6:52 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 6:52 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
I mean even Taylor Swift spends months rehearsing for her tours so I’m not going to knock someone for doing the prep
posted by Jarcat at 6:55 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 6:55 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Not even half over and Drudge is a bit of a fan?
BIDEN ROARS ON BIG NIGHTposted by Rhaomi at 6:55 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
HOPES AND FEARS
LAUNCHES 'FREEDOM' CAMPAIGN
POPULIST AGENDA
Mike Johnson is trying to look smugly superior but he keeps nodding and clapping under the table by mistake.
posted by mmoncur at 6:57 PM on March 7 [14 favorites]
posted by mmoncur at 6:57 PM on March 7 [14 favorites]
NBC News has a bubble chart populating with the duration he speaks on various topics herei
posted by jeoc at 6:59 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by jeoc at 6:59 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
The way this speech is going so far, when it's done I want Biden to pee in a cup to test for steroids. -- WaPo's Jim Geraghty
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:01 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:01 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
He's just trolling the Republicans at this point and I am here for it.
posted by vverse23 at 7:05 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 7:05 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
Who did they bring in to punch this up?
Capra, I think
posted by MtDewd at 7:05 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Capra, I think
posted by MtDewd at 7:05 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Biden’s text refers to Trump 13 times as “my predecessor” — clearly a choice to not use his name, and instead to use a term that connotes the past. - WaPo's Isaac Arnsdorf
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:06 PM on March 7 [17 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:06 PM on March 7 [17 favorites]
End shrinkflation now! More chips in bags.
posted by Molesome at 7:06 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 7:06 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
Lmao how did these GOP chucklefucks walk into literally the exact same trap they did last year? I guess maybe their memories are getting foggy, lost a step, etc.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:06 PM on March 7 [16 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:06 PM on March 7 [16 favorites]
I was going to skip this and watch the highlights tomorrow, but this really is like watching Prince play basketball, isn't it?
posted by Catblack at 7:06 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 7:06 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Accusations that Biden has been replaced by a double are inevitable.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:08 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:08 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
James Lankford sitting there nodding and thinking "That's my president."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:09 PM on March 7
posted by Rhaomi at 7:09 PM on March 7
he’s doing pretty well, verbal tumbles aside, but this border bill is terrible, but not for the reasons that mtg is screaming. what we do to migrants is terrible and this would make that worse.
posted by dis_integration at 7:09 PM on March 7 [21 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:09 PM on March 7 [21 favorites]
You know how to read.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:10 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:10 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Biden defending my right to have a properly-sized bag of Doritos now.
I WILL STOP YOU
That was a chilling whisper, I loved it.
I think the Republicans really lowered expectations with the "old man Biden" narrative and now they're getting smacked.
To Republicans: "Look at the facts. I know you know how to read."
MTG screeching in the foreground now. Sigh.
posted by mmoncur at 7:11 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
I WILL STOP YOU
That was a chilling whisper, I loved it.
I think the Republicans really lowered expectations with the "old man Biden" narrative and now they're getting smacked.
To Republicans: "Look at the facts. I know you know how to read."
MTG screeching in the foreground now. Sigh.
posted by mmoncur at 7:11 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
lol did dude just say "an illegal"?? multiple times?? (biden voice) cmon man
posted by windbox at 7:13 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
posted by windbox at 7:13 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Shrinkflation is Bob Casey's obsession. Too much like "low-flow toilet" carping, for the legit prez
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:13 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:13 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
I mean, honestly, I'm very glad he seems as awake and cogent and feisty as I've seen him in months. A+ on style (so far..)
posted by flamk at 7:15 PM on March 7
posted by flamk at 7:15 PM on March 7
calling people illegal and then trying to get civil rights bona fides is cynical and gross
posted by dis_integration at 7:15 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:15 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
End shrinkflation now! More chips in bags.
FOUR MORE CHIPS
posted by StarkRoads at 7:16 PM on March 7 [35 favorites]
FOUR MORE CHIPS
posted by StarkRoads at 7:16 PM on March 7 [35 favorites]
"Instead of erasing history, let's make history."
posted by Rhaomi at 7:16 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:16 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
who tf was that screaming
posted by slater at 7:17 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by slater at 7:17 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
he’s doing pretty well, verbal tumbles aside, but this border bill is terrible, but not for the reasons that mtg is screaming. what we do to migrants is terrible and this would make that worse.
Yeah, I noticed Matt Gatez smirking as Biden was cheerleading that bill... almost as if he's happy to see a Democratic President and the Democratic Party pretend to win by cheerleading what is, essentially, a rightwing fascist Republican bill.
posted by flamk at 7:18 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Yeah, I noticed Matt Gatez smirking as Biden was cheerleading that bill... almost as if he's happy to see a Democratic President and the Democratic Party pretend to win by cheerleading what is, essentially, a rightwing fascist Republican bill.
posted by flamk at 7:18 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Mike Johnson stood and clapped at the reference to John Lewis. I have to give him credit for being a civil human opponent instead of a shrieking loon in this moment.
Someone's screaming incomprehensibly and I think being kicked out. No idea who.
posted by mmoncur at 7:18 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Someone's screaming incomprehensibly and I think being kicked out. No idea who.
posted by mmoncur at 7:18 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Johnson really trying to do his best TrumpReactionFace.gif (it's not very good).
posted by Rhaomi at 7:19 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:19 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
If I heard properly, he also said "legals" perform murders too. Not sure if this was meant a "common man" parallelism to previous use of "illegals" but yeah, proper terminology would be good.
posted by beaning at 7:20 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by beaning at 7:20 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
"When you get to be my age..."
Owning it!
"In my career I've been told I'm too young, and I've been told I'm too old."
"It's not how old you are, it's how old your ideas are."
posted by mmoncur at 7:31 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
Owning it!
"In my career I've been told I'm too young, and I've been told I'm too old."
"It's not how old you are, it's how old your ideas are."
posted by mmoncur at 7:31 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
Is someone going to congratulate Sam Seaborn and Toby Ziegler on this address?
posted by Molesome at 7:33 PM on March 7 [44 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 7:33 PM on March 7 [44 favorites]
The full text of Biden's 2024 State of the Union address
posted by Rhaomi at 7:34 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:34 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
Pretty good speech, I think. There's basically 3 major appearances this year: this SOTU, his speech at the convention, and any debates. Hopefully he nails the other ones too, because he has to.
posted by netowl at 7:36 PM on March 7
posted by netowl at 7:36 PM on March 7
I was going to skip this and watch the highlights tomorrow, but this really is like watching Prince play basketball, isn't it?
Game. Blouses.
posted by Jarcat at 7:38 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Game. Blouses.
posted by Jarcat at 7:38 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Somebody better check on Ezra Klein, I fear he may not be able to handle this.
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on March 7 [38 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 7:49 PM on March 7 [38 favorites]
Guys I really tried to listen to the Republican response but instead the first line had me screaming and reaching for the keyboard.
posted by bq at 7:56 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 7:56 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Katie Britt delivering the Republican response and weirdly sounds like she's about to cry. Laying it on a little thick. (Also love that she made a verbal flub like two sentences in).
posted by Rhaomi at 7:57 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:57 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
yeah the fake, breathless, almost-crying of Katie Britt is Oscar-worthy.
posted by slater at 7:58 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by slater at 7:58 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
She’s interchangeable with a thousand other ranting right wing moms on TikTok.
posted by Sublimity at 8:02 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 8:02 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
"Please, do not man-terrupt me when I’m wo-making a point, Michael! This election is a misgrace, okay? This is a colastamy, Micahel Che. And I’m sorry, if I can play double’s abacus for just a second, and if we all know the real reason Julian Assange is in jail, and that’s coz she’s a woman. Do you even know what women have to do when we go vote, Michael? We have to show our IUD. I’m sorry, that’s outrageous. That’s called the bubble standard! You know what I have to say to that?"
credit
posted by os tuberoes at 8:03 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
credit
posted by os tuberoes at 8:03 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
"She told me not only that she was raped every day, but how many times she was raped."
And do you think she should be forced to birth the product of that rape, senator?
posted by Rhaomi at 8:03 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
And do you think she should be forced to birth the product of that rape, senator?
posted by Rhaomi at 8:03 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
Yikes. She is major cringe. What's with the glossed-on smile that peeks out now and again between the fearmongering stuff.
posted by storybored at 8:05 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by storybored at 8:05 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Sally Struthers has some serious competition.
posted by flamk at 8:06 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
posted by flamk at 8:06 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
God they're just gonna go extremely hard on "illegals will rape and kill and sex traffic our women" this year aren't they. Refreshed this time with pseudo-activist calls to "Say Her Name" reappropriated from BLM so they have something to chant and heckle and go extremely nuts with as a rallying cry in the vein of Lock Her Up. It's gonna be so annoying and awful.
posted by windbox at 8:07 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
posted by windbox at 8:07 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
I can’t they’re trotting out that “Are you better off four years ago” line. Dude, four years ago there were field hospitals in Central Park and the federal government was stealing covid safety supplies that the states had to competitively bid to acquire, because the feds refused to coordinate.
posted by Sublimity at 8:09 PM on March 7 [28 favorites]
posted by Sublimity at 8:09 PM on March 7 [28 favorites]
The notoriously policed /r/Conservative live thread is absolutely roasting this response.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:11 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 8:11 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
That’s this week’s SNL cold open.
posted by sageleaf at 8:12 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
posted by sageleaf at 8:12 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Christ Republicans are literally doing tearful "We See You We Hear You" bits...I knew it was a matter of time
posted by windbox at 8:13 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by windbox at 8:13 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
The notoriously policed /r/Conservative live thread is absolutely roasting this response.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:11 PM on March 7 [+] [⚑]
I thought I was just being biased but one comment from that thread shows this is a bipartisan thing: "I want to cut off my ears with a dull butter knife after listening to that"
posted by storybored at 8:19 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 11:11 PM on March 7 [+] [⚑]
I thought I was just being biased but one comment from that thread shows this is a bipartisan thing: "I want to cut off my ears with a dull butter knife after listening to that"
posted by storybored at 8:19 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Did he ad-lib the illegals/legals bit? I didn't find that via CTRL F in the linked speech.
posted by beaning at 8:20 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by beaning at 8:20 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
I understand why Republicans went with the optics of having the youngest woman elected to the senate deliver the response, but their actual candidate is none of those things.
posted by jedicus at 8:20 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 8:20 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
Biden knocked it out of the park. He did everything he had to do, and more. And the "response" was... a creepy white woman sitting at her kitchen table listing all the problems her party caused in a "join my cult" voice while ultimately saying nothing noteworthy whatsoever? Vapidity in response to substance. That summarizes so much of how I see my choice in 2024.
posted by lock robster at 8:23 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
posted by lock robster at 8:23 PM on March 7 [15 favorites]
Is someone going to congratulate Sam Seaborn and Toby Ziegler on this address?
I can almost picture Joey Lucas and the wall of dials.
posted by ApathyGirl at 8:33 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
I can almost picture Joey Lucas and the wall of dials.
posted by ApathyGirl at 8:33 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Biden: "On my watch, all federal projects are made with American products and built by American workers!"
Johnson: :I
posted by Rhaomi at 6:43 PM
The loud groan and collective sigh you just heard was Canadians once again getting ready to trek down to Washington to remind a certain allied nation that we've got a continent-wide free-trade agreement with them, and that shutting out Canadian produced products is not just a bad thing for the Canadian economy but also a really stupid thing to do as Americans, especially as there are certain goods and raw materials that you tend to import from north of the border. It's just going to be another endless round of negotiations, costing time and money and causing all sorts of anxiety, but I guess c'est la vie. I mean it's not as if this issue doesn't come up every time one of these speeches happens. I mean it's getting pretty old and tiring at this point--so old, in fact, it feels nearly as old as the dudes that are running for a certain political office.
And I'm also curious as to who got booted out for heckling or causing a disturbance.
posted by sardonyx at 8:35 PM on March 7 [20 favorites]
Johnson: :I
posted by Rhaomi at 6:43 PM
The loud groan and collective sigh you just heard was Canadians once again getting ready to trek down to Washington to remind a certain allied nation that we've got a continent-wide free-trade agreement with them, and that shutting out Canadian produced products is not just a bad thing for the Canadian economy but also a really stupid thing to do as Americans, especially as there are certain goods and raw materials that you tend to import from north of the border. It's just going to be another endless round of negotiations, costing time and money and causing all sorts of anxiety, but I guess c'est la vie. I mean it's not as if this issue doesn't come up every time one of these speeches happens. I mean it's getting pretty old and tiring at this point--so old, in fact, it feels nearly as old as the dudes that are running for a certain political office.
And I'm also curious as to who got booted out for heckling or causing a disturbance.
posted by sardonyx at 8:35 PM on March 7 [20 favorites]
Biden came out like a hillside of burning barns. And the way he can suck them into rhetorical binds on a dime. So nimble on his feet: he has a stutter not syphlitic brain disease. Imagine TFG getting heckled like that. Who can barely form a sentence anymore what with sn ever shrinking vocabulary.
I think he hit his target audience and more. I feel better after seeing that.
posted by y2karl at 8:42 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
I think he hit his target audience and more. I feel better after seeing that.
posted by y2karl at 8:42 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
Katie Britt looks and sounds like a blander version of Denise Richard's character in Drop Dead Gorgeous and you will not convince me otherwise.
posted by honeybee413 at 8:43 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc():focal(674x339:676x341)/denise-richards-ddg-2-50c3186645b4418ebcb2b1f07a812ed2.jpg){kind=link}
posted by honeybee413 at 8:43 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
CNN instant poll results of speech watchers (37% Dem, 30% Rep, 33% Indy):
Reaction to the speech:
35% very positive
29% somewhat positive
35% negative
(Similar to last year, but lower than his first couple of SOTUs)
Biden's policies will move the country in the:
62% right direction (up from 45% pre-speech)
38% wrong direction
posted by Rhaomi at 8:44 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
Reaction to the speech:
35% very positive
29% somewhat positive
35% negative
(Similar to last year, but lower than his first couple of SOTUs)
Biden's policies will move the country in the:
62% right direction (up from 45% pre-speech)
38% wrong direction
posted by Rhaomi at 8:44 PM on March 7 [11 favorites]
Age/shmage that was a good speech.
posted by mazola at 8:45 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
posted by mazola at 8:45 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
That Republican response was… something
posted by mazola at 8:51 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by mazola at 8:51 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Fox News pre-speech: doddering old man Biden is an enfeebled fool
Fox News post-speech: thunderous gigachad Biden is clearly J U I C I N G
posted by Rhaomi at 8:54 PM on March 7 [25 favorites]
Fox News post-speech: thunderous gigachad Biden is clearly J U I C I N G
posted by Rhaomi at 8:54 PM on March 7 [25 favorites]
Another thing about that speech was born going viral. It was intricate, brilliant and cunningly constructed. He owned them. We will see thousands of sliced and diced clips mushrooming up across social media. Let's see what public opinion is tomorrow. I suspect his numbers will rise.
posted by y2karl at 9:01 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 9:01 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
For a guy who supposedly has serious dementia he sure seems to be able to deliver a pretty solid SOTU and campaign speech. I’m sure the people who are pushing the story that he’s old and feeble minded will ignore this.
posted by interogative mood at 9:04 PM on March 7 [10 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:04 PM on March 7 [10 favorites]
The question everyone should be asking is why isn’t Trump as presumptive Republican nominee the one giving the Republican response tonight? Are they afraid of the contrast?
posted by interogative mood at 9:06 PM on March 7 [28 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:06 PM on March 7 [28 favorites]
New CNN instant poll results:
Biden's economic policies will move the country:
56% right direction
44% wrong direction
That "right direction" is up from 45% pre-speech, albeit lower than previous years.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:10 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
Biden's economic policies will move the country:
56% right direction
44% wrong direction
That "right direction" is up from 45% pre-speech, albeit lower than previous years.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:10 PM on March 7 [4 favorites]
Truth Social Suffers Outage in Middle of Trump's Furious Live-Tweeting About Biden Speech: "THE DRUGS ARE WEARING OFF!" Trump wrote without any further context, making it's unclear if he was talking about Biden or himself.
posted by mazola at 9:13 PM on March 7 [39 favorites]
posted by mazola at 9:13 PM on March 7 [39 favorites]
Rare whiff from the Onion, obviously pre-written: Biden Crumbles To Dust During State Of Union
Meanwhile, NYTimesPitchbot asks: "Was Biden’s State of the Union speech too energetic?"
posted by Rhaomi at 9:15 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
Meanwhile, NYTimesPitchbot asks: "Was Biden’s State of the Union speech too energetic?"
posted by Rhaomi at 9:15 PM on March 7 [7 favorites]
Is someone going to congratulate Sam Seaborn and Toby Ziegler on this address?
I can almost picture Joey Lucas and the wall of dials.
you know, i was kidding about this, and then he went and promised tocure end cancer.
Maybe Sorkin and O'Donnell did do some doctoring?
posted by ApathyGirl at 9:17 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
I can almost picture Joey Lucas and the wall of dials.
you know, i was kidding about this, and then he went and promised to
Maybe Sorkin and O'Donnell did do some doctoring?
posted by ApathyGirl at 9:17 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
More CNN instant poll results:
Biden's Ukraine aid proposals:
34% too much
49% about right
16% not enough
...and Israel:
28% too much
53% about right
20% not enough
(Younger voters less supportive on the latter.)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:28 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
Biden's Ukraine aid proposals:
34% too much
49% about right
16% not enough
...and Israel:
28% too much
53% about right
20% not enough
(Younger voters less supportive on the latter.)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:28 PM on March 7 [2 favorites]
CNN instant poll results of speech watchers:
I somehow managed to read that as "poll of speech writers" and thought that was a pretty interesting take on things. Heh. I would actually kinda like to see that poll.
posted by kristi at 9:46 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
I somehow managed to read that as "poll of speech writers" and thought that was a pretty interesting take on things. Heh. I would actually kinda like to see that poll.
posted by kristi at 9:46 PM on March 7 [8 favorites]
Last CNN instant poll result (I think):
Confidence in Biden's ability to protect US democracy:
36% a lot
27% some
37% none
Confidence in Biden's ability to carry out his duties:
31% a lot (up from 25% pre-speech)
28% some (up from 27%)
41% none (down from 48%)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:54 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
Confidence in Biden's ability to protect US democracy:
36% a lot
27% some
37% none
Confidence in Biden's ability to carry out his duties:
31% a lot (up from 25% pre-speech)
28% some (up from 27%)
41% none (down from 48%)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:54 PM on March 7 [3 favorites]
> And I'm also curious as to who got booted out for heckling or causing a disturbance.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/08/state-of-the-union-biden-speech-heckler-charged
posted by Clowder of bats at 10:14 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/08/state-of-the-union-biden-speech-heckler-charged
posted by Clowder of bats at 10:14 PM on March 7 [5 favorites]
Well I wasn’t going to watch it but then I read this thread so I watched it. It was pretty good. So much better than I feared and expected! That is pretty cool.
posted by Glinn at 10:47 PM on March 7 [9 favorites]
posted by Glinn at 10:47 PM on March 7 [9 favorites]
Nikoui is the father of Lance Cpl Kareem Nikoui and was a guest of Rep. Brian Mast (R-Fla.).
Hope they lock up Mast as an accomplice.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:48 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Hope they lock up Mast as an accomplice.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:48 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
Dan Cluchey, "a speechwriter on the 2020 Biden campaign and a senior presidential speechwriter in the first two years of President Biden’s White House," interview.
Q: What makes Biden’s style distinct?
A: He’s someone who has a really keen understanding of the power that a president holds in the time that they have to make a positive difference in people’s lives. That gives him a real skill for cutting through the clutter and getting to the core of ‘I want to speak plainly to people about the things that keep them up at night.’
And if it doesn’t reflect that, you’re going to be rewriting it.
-- The State of the Union, "A pain in the ass speech to write" (Politico, Mar. 6, 2024)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:50 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
Q: What makes Biden’s style distinct?
A: He’s someone who has a really keen understanding of the power that a president holds in the time that they have to make a positive difference in people’s lives. That gives him a real skill for cutting through the clutter and getting to the core of ‘I want to speak plainly to people about the things that keep them up at night.’
And if it doesn’t reflect that, you’re going to be rewriting it.
-- The State of the Union, "A pain in the ass speech to write" (Politico, Mar. 6, 2024)
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:50 PM on March 7 [13 favorites]
Biden had his Dr. Feelgood moment tonight.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 10:59 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
posted by abraxasaxarba at 10:59 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]
dis_integration: he’s doing pretty well, verbal tumbles aside, but this border bill is terrible, but not for the reasons that mtg is screaming. what we do to migrants is terrible and this would make that worse.
flamk: Yeah, I noticed Matt Gatez smirking as Biden was cheerleading that bill... almost as if he's happy to see a Democratic President and the Democratic Party pretend to win by cheerleading what is, essentially, a rightwing fascist Republican bill.
This is a good example of Stupid Evil (Taylor-Greene) vs. Cunning Evil (Gaetz).
It's always easier to move that Overton window when you can convince the guy on the other side to pick up his end.
posted by non canadian guy at 11:35 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
flamk: Yeah, I noticed Matt Gatez smirking as Biden was cheerleading that bill... almost as if he's happy to see a Democratic President and the Democratic Party pretend to win by cheerleading what is, essentially, a rightwing fascist Republican bill.
This is a good example of Stupid Evil (Taylor-Greene) vs. Cunning Evil (Gaetz).
It's always easier to move that Overton window when you can convince the guy on the other side to pick up his end.
posted by non canadian guy at 11:35 PM on March 7 [6 favorites]
Analysis: Trump election win could add 4bn tonnes to US emissions by 2030
A victory for Donald Trump in November’s presidential election could lead to an additional 4bn tonnes of US emissions by 2030 compared with Joe Biden’s plans, Carbon Brief analysis reveals.posted by Rhaomi at 12:07 AM on March 8 [16 favorites]
This extra 4bn tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent (GtCO2e) by 2030 would cause global climate damages worth more than $900bn, based on the latest US government valuations.
For context, 4GtCO2e is equivalent to the combined annual emissions of the EU and Japan, or the combined annual total of the world’s 140 lowest-emitting countries.
Put another way, the extra 4GtCO2e from a second Trump term would negate – twice over – all of the savings from deploying wind, solar and other clean technologies around the world over the past five years.
If Trump secures a second term, the US would also very likely miss its global climate pledge by a wide margin, with emissions only falling to 28% below 2005 levels by 2030. The US’s current target under the Paris Agreement is to achieve a 50-52% reduction by 2030.
you know, i was kidding about this, and then he went and promised to end cancer.
That was the line that caused me to comment.
posted by Molesome at 12:21 AM on March 8 [2 favorites]
That was the line that caused me to comment.
posted by Molesome at 12:21 AM on March 8 [2 favorites]
Analysis: Trump election win could add 4bn tonnes to US emissions by 2030
This exercise in bullshitting could will kill millions of people. Maybe billions, given climate change and what Republicans think about environmental laws.posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:27 AM on March 8 [5 favorites]
The styling on the captions of the C-SPAN video really capture the mood of the rebuttal:
GOOD EVENING, AMERICA. MY NAME IS KATIE BRITT, AND AT THE GUNNER OBSERVING THE PEOPLE OF THE GREAT STATE OF ALABAMA IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE. THAT IS NOT THE JOB THAT MATTERS MOST. I AM A PROUD WIFE AND MOM OF TWO SCHOOL-AGE KIDS. MY DAUGHTER BENNETT AND MY SON BRIDGE ARE WHY I RAN FOR THE SENATE. I AM WORRIED ABOUT THEIR FUTURE AND THE FUTURE OF CHILDREN IN EVERY CORNER OF OUR NATION, AND THAT IS WHY I INVITED YOU INTO OUR HOME TONIGHT. ...posted by autopilot at 1:14 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
Biden's been a really strong orator at least since I started paying attention (which was back when he was vice president). Like, really strong. People always come away impressed by his speeches and yet it's interesting how no one ever seems to expect it and how strong oratory skill isn't seen as a defining trait of his, when it sure seems to be.
posted by trig at 2:16 AM on March 8 [18 favorites]
posted by trig at 2:16 AM on March 8 [18 favorites]
Biden farking nailed it. Left his critics, on both the left and right, nothing to work with.
posted by Pouteria at 3:03 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
posted by Pouteria at 3:03 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
Biden farking nailed it. Left his critics, on both the left and right, nothing to work with.
He called some residents of the U.S. illegal, and no human is illegal.
I hear the rest of the speech was very strong though.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:03 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
He called some residents of the U.S. illegal, and no human is illegal.
I hear the rest of the speech was very strong though.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:03 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
MY DAUGHTER BENNETT AND MY SON BRIDGE
How on earth did the daughter escape being named Intersection or Sidewalk?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:17 AM on March 8 [11 favorites]
How on earth did the daughter escape being named Intersection or Sidewalk?
posted by Dip Flash at 5:17 AM on March 8 [11 favorites]
> Biden farking nailed it. Left his critics, on both the left and right, nothing to work with.
His delivery was good, for an 80 year old. There’s still plenty to complain about from the left, starting with continued support for the ongoing genocide. He’s way off the mark there. The right will always have something to work with because they make their own material out of thin air
posted by dis_integration at 5:22 AM on March 8 [28 favorites]
His delivery was good, for an 80 year old. There’s still plenty to complain about from the left, starting with continued support for the ongoing genocide. He’s way off the mark there. The right will always have something to work with because they make their own material out of thin air
posted by dis_integration at 5:22 AM on March 8 [28 favorites]
I really, really, REALLY think we need to not focus on his (few) missteps and worry MUCH more about making sure that the other guy will not be re-elected.
posted by Melismata at 6:24 AM on March 8 [26 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 6:24 AM on March 8 [26 favorites]
For those polls, when they ask "Confidence in Biden's ability to [do the thing]", are any of those things he really has control over? Most seem to have a hidden 2nd line that says 'if congress and the supreme court and corporate america let him".
I didn't watch the speech, but everything I've seen so far is awesome. Yeah, he's not as far to the left as I'd like but if he's willing to confidently own standing so far to the left of the assholes, I can live with that.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:28 AM on March 8 [12 favorites]
I didn't watch the speech, but everything I've seen so far is awesome. Yeah, he's not as far to the left as I'd like but if he's willing to confidently own standing so far to the left of the assholes, I can live with that.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:28 AM on March 8 [12 favorites]
I want to take a minute to acknowledge the brave people who took to the streets to block the motorcade route to protest the genocide in Gaza (Al Jazeera story with pictures: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/8/state-of-the-union-is-genocide-gaza-protesters-challenge-biden-speech). It was a very courageous thing to do and I hope it gets some attention.
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:47 AM on March 8 [24 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 6:47 AM on March 8 [24 favorites]
dis_integration Sure, but that's because Biden is a Democrat, not a leftist. I have lots of policy, and philosophic, differences with him.
But dude showed he wasn't actually losing his marbles and that was what he really needed to do in order to have a chance at beating Trump
I WANT leftist policy. I'll SETTLE for the usual Democratic "not quite so bad as the Republicans". I'm not sure if Trump really is an exestential threat to democracy itself or if that's just my own paranoia talking, but he's definitely representative a worse policy and philosophy than Biden so I'll take Biden.
And I've got to admit, it was nice to see Biden looking energetic. Compare that to Trump's... eccentric... performance lately and I have some hope that Trump will lose in November by a large enough margin the Republicans can't steal the election.
posted by sotonohito at 7:05 AM on March 8 [33 favorites]
But dude showed he wasn't actually losing his marbles and that was what he really needed to do in order to have a chance at beating Trump
I WANT leftist policy. I'll SETTLE for the usual Democratic "not quite so bad as the Republicans". I'm not sure if Trump really is an exestential threat to democracy itself or if that's just my own paranoia talking, but he's definitely representative a worse policy and philosophy than Biden so I'll take Biden.
And I've got to admit, it was nice to see Biden looking energetic. Compare that to Trump's... eccentric... performance lately and I have some hope that Trump will lose in November by a large enough margin the Republicans can't steal the election.
posted by sotonohito at 7:05 AM on March 8 [33 favorites]
The loud groan and collective sigh you just heard was Canadians once again getting ready to trek down to Washington to remind a certain allied nation that we've got a continent-wide free-trade agreement with them, and that shutting out Canadian produced products is not just a bad thing for the Canadian economy but also a really stupid thing to do as Americans, especially as there are certain goods and raw materials that you tend to import from north of the border.
Brian Mulroney's fresh corpse just rolled over
posted by Kitteh at 7:20 AM on March 8 [4 favorites]
Brian Mulroney's fresh corpse just rolled over
posted by Kitteh at 7:20 AM on March 8 [4 favorites]
Oh, I hadn't looked at it that way, Kitteh. Disturbing Brian's eternal rest might actually be worth going through a few more rounds of trade negotiations.
posted by sardonyx at 7:35 AM on March 8 [5 favorites]
posted by sardonyx at 7:35 AM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Imagine a neighbor who constantly switches between landscaping companies A & B.
Company A does things like thatch, aerate, weed, fertilize, and plant native perennials.
Company B does things like hang seasonal flags and plant expensive annuals from the wrong climate. They don't weed or trim or replenish the soil. Their guys take long breaks on his lawn furniture.
Every now and then, your neighbor fires the company that does good work, because he remembers all of the nice perennials that came up during the flag guy's time. And he's mad that weeds came up during company A's time and that all of the non-native annuals died.
Anywho, sure is a blast hearing undecided voters talk about why the GOP might be better for the economy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:59 AM on March 8 [41 favorites]
Company A does things like thatch, aerate, weed, fertilize, and plant native perennials.
Company B does things like hang seasonal flags and plant expensive annuals from the wrong climate. They don't weed or trim or replenish the soil. Their guys take long breaks on his lawn furniture.
Every now and then, your neighbor fires the company that does good work, because he remembers all of the nice perennials that came up during the flag guy's time. And he's mad that weeds came up during company A's time and that all of the non-native annuals died.
Anywho, sure is a blast hearing undecided voters talk about why the GOP might be better for the economy.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:59 AM on March 8 [41 favorites]
We can acknowledge that Biden isn't perfect without advocating for Trump. In fact, we should, because we aim to elect representatives and not dictators.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:02 AM on March 8 [11 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:02 AM on March 8 [11 favorites]
It really has astonished me the last month or so just how willing some Metafilterites, including many who consider themselves too radical and independent-minded to be Democrats, are to pipeline whatever hot take the GOP/MAGA pipeline is pushing. Without any basis! The last month the push has been all out for 'Biden's so demented' and like clockwork it appeared here too.
posted by tavella at 8:52 AM on March 8 [31 favorites]
posted by tavella at 8:52 AM on March 8 [31 favorites]
look sometimes taking a principled and uncompromising progressive stand means uncritically parroting right-wing talking points
posted by logicpunk at 8:55 AM on March 8 [36 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 8:55 AM on March 8 [36 favorites]
It's become crystal clear that TFG doesn't go away unless he's beat in an election. The SOTU gave me some optimism about that outcome.
The SOTU might not (indeed doesn't) reach everyone, but it should energize the politically engaged and the message extends from there. It beats creeping dread and giving up.
posted by mazola at 9:00 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
The SOTU might not (indeed doesn't) reach everyone, but it should energize the politically engaged and the message extends from there. It beats creeping dread and giving up.
posted by mazola at 9:00 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
TFG doesn't go away unless he's beat in an election
I get what you're saying, and it is the best we can shoot for right now, but given that he didn't go away after he lost the last election, that still makes me recoil.
Experience has taught us there's no guarantee he'll go away even if he loses the next election. He won't even admit to losing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:14 AM on March 8 [13 favorites]
I get what you're saying, and it is the best we can shoot for right now, but given that he didn't go away after he lost the last election, that still makes me recoil.
Experience has taught us there's no guarantee he'll go away even if he loses the next election. He won't even admit to losing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:14 AM on March 8 [13 favorites]
He won't go away until he dies. I'd love to say "or if he goes to jail," but we all know better.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 AM on March 8 [14 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 AM on March 8 [14 favorites]
If TFG wins he's empowered. If he loses, he's diminished. Court cases proceed. There is a path away from him and what he represents. It's as simple as that I think.
posted by mazola at 9:23 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
posted by mazola at 9:23 AM on March 8 [8 favorites]
look sometimes taking a principled and uncompromising progressive stand means uncritically parroting right-wing talking points
Sometimes being engaged with reality means not ignoring a concern just because it was repeated by your enemies.
He won't go away until he dies. I'd love to say "or if he goes to jail," but we all know better.
Win or lose, I don't think he'll be around in 2028. Not that a victory in 2024 wouldn't be catastrophic, or have long ranging, potentially fatal consequences for civil rights in the US. But the man himself has a reasonably short shelf-life, I think.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:25 AM on March 8 [7 favorites]
Sometimes being engaged with reality means not ignoring a concern just because it was repeated by your enemies.
He won't go away until he dies. I'd love to say "or if he goes to jail," but we all know better.
Win or lose, I don't think he'll be around in 2028. Not that a victory in 2024 wouldn't be catastrophic, or have long ranging, potentially fatal consequences for civil rights in the US. But the man himself has a reasonably short shelf-life, I think.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:25 AM on March 8 [7 favorites]
But the man himself has a reasonably short shelf-life, I think.
Two words: Family dynasty. Only his ego and self-centeredness will hinder him from putting the blocks in place for a Trump dynasty. We’ll have to see who he picks as his vice president. I will not be at all surprised if it isn’t a family member.
In very real terms, people need to vote as if Trump winning means that will be the last vote you ever get to cast.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:33 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
Two words: Family dynasty. Only his ego and self-centeredness will hinder him from putting the blocks in place for a Trump dynasty. We’ll have to see who he picks as his vice president. I will not be at all surprised if it isn’t a family member.
In very real terms, people need to vote as if Trump winning means that will be the last vote you ever get to cast.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:33 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
Thorzdad, I saw some conjecture that Katie Britt's rebuttal was a test balloon positioning her to be Trump's running mate so she can lock down the suburban mom crowd, but who knows with Trump?
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:36 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:36 AM on March 8 [1 favorite]
> Sometimes being engaged with reality means not ignoring a concern
See, you've fallen into their own framing! It's already "a concern." A problem. Something that needs to be discussed. Discussed on TV and in newspapers, every day. It's a disqualifying problem, even! It's now clear that voting for Trump is just clear-headed practical politics, because he's younger.
Remember the wisdom of Garfield the cat: You are not immune to propaganda.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:38 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
See, you've fallen into their own framing! It's already "a concern." A problem. Something that needs to be discussed. Discussed on TV and in newspapers, every day. It's a disqualifying problem, even! It's now clear that voting for Trump is just clear-headed practical politics, because he's younger.
Remember the wisdom of Garfield the cat: You are not immune to propaganda.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:38 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
And let me be even clearer: I do not give a single shit about Biden's age. I would vote for the 140 year old mummy of FDR before I'd vote for Trump. Age doesn't matter at all in this election! Yes, if Biden were running against his identical clone, who is 15 years younger then maybe we should have a discussion about age and how it affects Biden The Elder's performance. But we don't live in Battling Clone World. We live in the world where the alternative to Biden is fucking TRUMP. A racist, sexist criminal and traitor who wants to end democracy.
I swear to god, "his age!" is going to be the "but her emails!" of 2024.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:50 AM on March 8 [37 favorites]
I swear to god, "his age!" is going to be the "but her emails!" of 2024.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:50 AM on March 8 [37 favorites]
> Katie Britt's rebuttal was a test balloon positioning her to be Trump's running mate so she can lock down the suburban mom crowd
As a suburban mom, I am offended.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:50 AM on March 8 [26 favorites]
As a suburban mom, I am offended.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:50 AM on March 8 [26 favorites]
My favorite line: "You can’t love your country only when you win."
posted by luckynerd at 9:57 AM on March 8 [16 favorites]
posted by luckynerd at 9:57 AM on March 8 [16 favorites]
Katie's voice sounds like she's trying to both invoke Marilyn Monroe and Edith Bunker.
posted by luckynerd at 10:08 AM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by luckynerd at 10:08 AM on March 8 [3 favorites]
Can't wait for the SNL skit on her.
posted by Melismata at 10:13 AM on March 8 [2 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 10:13 AM on March 8 [2 favorites]
But we don't live in Battling Clone World.
Yet.
posted by y2karl at 10:14 AM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Yet.
posted by y2karl at 10:14 AM on March 8 [5 favorites]
See, you've fallen into their own framing! It's already "a concern." A problem.
It was a concern before the right wing touched it. Biden's age has been a concern since the 2020 primaries. And the perception of him as mentally unfit was seriously hurting him after the classified documents report. Hopefully his performance will be perceived as solid enough to neutralize that problem,because the window for him to step aside has passed. But it would be foolish to pretend he never had any issue in the first place.
Age doesn't matter at all in this election!
Unfortunately, it might. There shouldn't be any reasonable person who considers voting for Trump for any reason, but lots of Americans are still acting like this is a normal presidential campaign rather than a strict binary referendum on whether we want to retain any vestiges of a functioning government.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:30 AM on March 8 [7 favorites]
It was a concern before the right wing touched it. Biden's age has been a concern since the 2020 primaries. And the perception of him as mentally unfit was seriously hurting him after the classified documents report. Hopefully his performance will be perceived as solid enough to neutralize that problem,because the window for him to step aside has passed. But it would be foolish to pretend he never had any issue in the first place.
Age doesn't matter at all in this election!
Unfortunately, it might. There shouldn't be any reasonable person who considers voting for Trump for any reason, but lots of Americans are still acting like this is a normal presidential campaign rather than a strict binary referendum on whether we want to retain any vestiges of a functioning government.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:30 AM on March 8 [7 favorites]
The reason why Biden being an elderly person who shows mild to moderate signs of age-related decline is irrelevant is because the alternative is another elderly person who shows advanced signs of severe dementia.
I do not know why this is not enough to put it to bed on its own. The solution to a leaky boat is not one that is already underwater and sinking.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:40 AM on March 8 [31 favorites]
I do not know why this is not enough to put it to bed on its own. The solution to a leaky boat is not one that is already underwater and sinking.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:40 AM on March 8 [31 favorites]
And I will say this for the fourth (fifth? sixth?) time: the Republicans pushing the "81 is unacceptably old for a president!" narrative largely want term limits to be struck down if 77 year-old Trump wins, so that he can serve again four years later.
Go ahead and do that arithmatic. I'll wait.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:42 AM on March 8 [13 favorites]
Go ahead and do that arithmatic. I'll wait.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:42 AM on March 8 [13 favorites]
(Of course, these are also the same people who claimed that how careful a person was when handling classified documents was the critical issue of the 2016 campaign but also that it's really not a big deal if you just steal a bunch, discuss them over dinner in mixed company, or store them next to the toilet in a golf course bathroom. They also said you needed to vote against a literal war hero in 2004 and for a guy who evaded active duty because of their military records. Please stop treating any argument originating from these people as being in good faith.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:56 AM on March 8 [32 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:56 AM on March 8 [32 favorites]
...but lots of Americans are still acting like this is a normal presidential campaign rather than a strict binary referendum on whether we want to retain any vestiges of a functioning government.
Which is why all the pearl-clutching about {insert concern du-jour} needs to be roundly shouted-down and the clutchers told over and over and over about why defending the democracy outstrips anything else in this election. Full-stop.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:03 AM on March 8 [15 favorites]
Which is why all the pearl-clutching about {insert concern du-jour} needs to be roundly shouted-down and the clutchers told over and over and over about why defending the democracy outstrips anything else in this election. Full-stop.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:03 AM on March 8 [15 favorites]
Hope they lock up Mast as an accomplice.
You want to put people in a cage for heckling? What the actual fuck?
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:13 AM on March 8 [6 favorites]
You want to put people in a cage for heckling? What the actual fuck?
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:13 AM on March 8 [6 favorites]
Which is why all the pearl-clutching about {insert concern du-jour} needs to be roundly shouted-down and the clutchers told over and over and over about why defending the democracy outstrips anything else in this election. Full-stop.
I have a few problems with this.
First off, no one you are able to "shout down" will have any meaningful effect on the 2024 presidential election.
More importantly, conflating those critical of Biden because they think he is not the best candidate to oppose Trump, and those considering voting for Trump is not very useful. these are two very different groups. Biden's mental fitness worried me because I am afraid he will lose, not because I am thinking the other guy might be better.
That ship has sailed at this point, but so long as the Democratic party is going to pretend to be concerned about the opinions of Democratic voters, they will have to put up with criticism of their candidates and arguments about who should be running.
But most importantly, given that the US under Biden is engaged in directly supporting a genocide, demanding people just stop criticizing Biden is a non-starter. The moral requirement that all possible pressure is applied to end the mass murder in Gaza does not pause until November.
I am scared of a Trump administration. I will certainly lose friends and family, and I might not survive it myself. I am not looking for some reason to weaken Joe Biden. But I don't think that makes silence in the face of evil morally permissible.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:19 AM on March 8 [19 favorites]
I have a few problems with this.
First off, no one you are able to "shout down" will have any meaningful effect on the 2024 presidential election.
More importantly, conflating those critical of Biden because they think he is not the best candidate to oppose Trump, and those considering voting for Trump is not very useful. these are two very different groups. Biden's mental fitness worried me because I am afraid he will lose, not because I am thinking the other guy might be better.
That ship has sailed at this point, but so long as the Democratic party is going to pretend to be concerned about the opinions of Democratic voters, they will have to put up with criticism of their candidates and arguments about who should be running.
But most importantly, given that the US under Biden is engaged in directly supporting a genocide, demanding people just stop criticizing Biden is a non-starter. The moral requirement that all possible pressure is applied to end the mass murder in Gaza does not pause until November.
I am scared of a Trump administration. I will certainly lose friends and family, and I might not survive it myself. I am not looking for some reason to weaken Joe Biden. But I don't think that makes silence in the face of evil morally permissible.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:19 AM on March 8 [19 favorites]
the clutchers told over and over and over about why defending the democracy outstrips anything else in this election
Except in their minds (dirtbag left or whatever group they are called now) they think the election is a false binary and so participating in it is reinforcing this binary, which will work against defending democracy. There is a flawed logic to their thinking, I hope that the Dem response is to correct them, rather than shout them down which would be further alienating and divisive. There's still time to reach those groups till November.
posted by polymodus at 11:22 AM on March 8 [2 favorites]
Except in their minds (dirtbag left or whatever group they are called now) they think the election is a false binary and so participating in it is reinforcing this binary, which will work against defending democracy. There is a flawed logic to their thinking, I hope that the Dem response is to correct them, rather than shout them down which would be further alienating and divisive. There's still time to reach those groups till November.
posted by polymodus at 11:22 AM on March 8 [2 favorites]
Which is why all the pearl-clutching about {insert concern du-jour} needs to be roundly shouted-down and the clutchers told over and over and over about why defending the democracy outstrips anything else in this election. Full-stop.
Wait, is the "concern du jour" here, the unfolding genocide that the US is offering unconditional military aid for? Just wanted to clarify!
If so, I'm afraid I'll keep clutching those pearls. And will make sure that my Palestinian friends know that "defending the democracy," whatever that means, means more than their loved ones lives.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:27 AM on March 8 [10 favorites]
Wait, is the "concern du jour" here, the unfolding genocide that the US is offering unconditional military aid for? Just wanted to clarify!
If so, I'm afraid I'll keep clutching those pearls. And will make sure that my Palestinian friends know that "defending the democracy," whatever that means, means more than their loved ones lives.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:27 AM on March 8 [10 favorites]
I started to post this comment here when I meant to post it elsewhere, but holy shit, it still works, so I'll add it to this anyway:
This is a horrible fucking show and I'm only still watching because after this many years, I want to know how it ends.posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:29 AM on March 8 [14 favorites]
demanding people just stop criticizing Biden is a non-starter.
Nope, not happening, until after the November election. After that, criticize away.
posted by Melismata at 11:32 AM on March 8 [3 favorites]
Nope, not happening, until after the November election. After that, criticize away.
posted by Melismata at 11:32 AM on March 8 [3 favorites]
Nope, not happening, until after the November election. After that, criticize away.
That is an understandable personal choice. It is not something that can be reasonably demanded of others.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:38 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
That is an understandable personal choice. It is not something that can be reasonably demanded of others.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:38 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
"we shouldn't do what the republicans do, because that drags us down to their level"!
"Shut up about the genocide Biden is enabling! Just be loyal to the party until we win, and then you can go back to being ignored!"
Wow, centrist democrats really are paragons of virtue.
posted by sagc at 11:40 AM on March 8 [12 favorites]
"Shut up about the genocide Biden is enabling! Just be loyal to the party until we win, and then you can go back to being ignored!"
Wow, centrist democrats really are paragons of virtue.
posted by sagc at 11:40 AM on March 8 [12 favorites]
You do realize that the Palestinians will be much worse off under Trump, right?
posted by Melismata at 11:52 AM on March 8 [15 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 11:52 AM on March 8 [15 favorites]
So... don't criticize the person with power, because of a hypothetical future scenario? Good that truly everything is just an abstract to some people, but I don't think you can expect everyone to be so callous toward the people currently being murdered by Israel using American munitions.
posted by sagc at 11:54 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:54 AM on March 8 [9 favorites]
Remember, you're not saying "vote for him anyway", you're saying "Don't you dare criticize him, or else you're actually the problem".
posted by sagc at 11:55 AM on March 8 [12 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:55 AM on March 8 [12 favorites]
You do realize that the Palestinians will be much worse off under Trump, right?
The goal isn't to get Trump elected. It is to stop the genocide.
I know it is easy to get tunnel focused on US politics, but the concern is that the president has power right now to stop the ongoing mass murder and it is going unused. His election chances being hurt by the criticism is not the most important issue.
These people are dying right now. They can't wait for November.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:58 AM on March 8 [15 favorites]
The goal isn't to get Trump elected. It is to stop the genocide.
I know it is easy to get tunnel focused on US politics, but the concern is that the president has power right now to stop the ongoing mass murder and it is going unused. His election chances being hurt by the criticism is not the most important issue.
These people are dying right now. They can't wait for November.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:58 AM on March 8 [15 favorites]
American middle of the road voters are fucking stupid, y'all. If you tell them the car on the left has bald tires and a missing headlight, they will cheerfully climb into the car on the right even if it has a visible ticking bomb tied to the ignition and Ghostface from Scream seated in the backseat hacking wildly with a butcher knife. I wish they were not like this, but they really fucking are and you know they are.
Do you own math about when you think it makes sense to drag on Biden, but keep in mind you're going to end up riding in the car those fucking dipshits choose.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:08 PM on March 8 [20 favorites]
Do you own math about when you think it makes sense to drag on Biden, but keep in mind you're going to end up riding in the car those fucking dipshits choose.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:08 PM on March 8 [20 favorites]
The stakes are high enough to me that, yeah, I'm going to side-eye anyone laying into Biden with criticism that comes across as a deliberate attempt to convince people not to vote for him in November.
What I find callous is the functionally accelerationist mindset I've seen take hold among some of those I've seen on social media saying they could never vote for Biden because of the genocide in Gaza. It's a short-sighted perspective and hardly virtuous.
posted by otsebyatina at 12:12 PM on March 8 [17 favorites]
What I find callous is the functionally accelerationist mindset I've seen take hold among some of those I've seen on social media saying they could never vote for Biden because of the genocide in Gaza. It's a short-sighted perspective and hardly virtuous.
posted by otsebyatina at 12:12 PM on March 8 [17 favorites]
Can't wait for the SNL skit on [Britt].
What can they possibly do with it that isn’t, as they say, putting a hat on a hat?
posted by non canadian guy at 12:14 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
What can they possibly do with it that isn’t, as they say, putting a hat on a hat?
posted by non canadian guy at 12:14 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
When Palin gave possibly her most ridiculous interview (was it with Couric?) SNL had Tina Fey give some of Palin's actual answers in the skit IIRC.
posted by Justinian at 12:16 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:16 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
So, how are people figuring out who's trying to get people to stop voting for Biden, and who just has, like, compassion for non-American, non-white lives? Because there are multiple people in this thread who seem to view literally any criticism of Biden as purely pro-Trump. That seems... wildly anti-democratic to me? But I guess I don't inhabit the mirror world where accurate critiques are definitely, definitely the thing that we need to stomp out the most in this campaign.
posted by sagc at 12:17 PM on March 8 [18 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:17 PM on March 8 [18 favorites]
It's usually signified to me by insinuations that any vote for Biden is an affirmative vote for genocide. To a lesser extent I side-eye people who insist that any development that seems positive is actually doomed from the outset, or a nefarious strategy to actually make the situation worse.
posted by otsebyatina at 12:23 PM on March 8 [8 favorites]
posted by otsebyatina at 12:23 PM on March 8 [8 favorites]
You do realize that the Palestinians will be much worse off under Trump, right?
I suggest you maybe take a look at the opinions of actual Palestinians (including Palestinian-Americans) and others impacted by the genocide in Gaza. They largely don't seem to think being completely silent on Biden's complicity in the murders of their families is a great move. So rather than deciding you know what's best for them, maybe follow their lead if you're so worried about who they'll be worse off under?
Palestinians and other Arab and Muslim-Americans are leading the many (wildly successful--especially given most of them have had like three weeks of lead time) 'uncommitted' protest vote campaigns around the country and have been brutally critical of Biden. Palestinian organizers coined "Genocide Joe."
Also, would love a definition of "much worse off"! Like, worse than genocide and mass starvation worse off?
posted by lizard2590 at 12:28 PM on March 8 [12 favorites]
I suggest you maybe take a look at the opinions of actual Palestinians (including Palestinian-Americans) and others impacted by the genocide in Gaza. They largely don't seem to think being completely silent on Biden's complicity in the murders of their families is a great move. So rather than deciding you know what's best for them, maybe follow their lead if you're so worried about who they'll be worse off under?
Palestinians and other Arab and Muslim-Americans are leading the many (wildly successful--especially given most of them have had like three weeks of lead time) 'uncommitted' protest vote campaigns around the country and have been brutally critical of Biden. Palestinian organizers coined "Genocide Joe."
Also, would love a definition of "much worse off"! Like, worse than genocide and mass starvation worse off?
posted by lizard2590 at 12:28 PM on March 8 [12 favorites]
Also, would love a definition of "much worse off"! Like, worse than genocide and mass starvation worse off?
Yeah, probably! Trump & his buds would love nothing more than to have a reason to start war with Iran. So not only would any inkling of concern for the Palestinian people evaporate with Trump in office, there'd be a push to escalate the regional conflict into something I don't think we want to imagine.
And then just complete carte blanche to Netanyahu. Gaza becomes an Israeli vacation destination. That kind of thing.
posted by knotty knots at 12:39 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
Yeah, probably! Trump & his buds would love nothing more than to have a reason to start war with Iran. So not only would any inkling of concern for the Palestinian people evaporate with Trump in office, there'd be a push to escalate the regional conflict into something I don't think we want to imagine.
And then just complete carte blanche to Netanyahu. Gaza becomes an Israeli vacation destination. That kind of thing.
posted by knotty knots at 12:39 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
It's usually signified to me by insinuations that any vote for Biden is an affirmative vote for genocide.
How about it's an affirmative vote for someone who is currently providing unconditional financial support for a genocide? Like, is there a part of that statement that's untrue? Especially if your vote for Biden is unaccompanied by any act of protest, donations, a call to your Congressman, anything in recognition of the evil he is responsible for?
To a lesser extent I side-eye people who insist that any development that seems positive is actually doomed from the outset, or a nefarious strategy to actually make the situation worse.
Side-eye away but this isn't knee-jerk childish cynicism--it's having paid attention to this issue for many years and knowing that US intervention in Palestine has historically only ever had one goal.
And also, taking Biden, who has many, many times claimed to be an ardent Zionist who has repeatedly justified Israeli war crimes over many decades, at his word.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:40 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
How about it's an affirmative vote for someone who is currently providing unconditional financial support for a genocide? Like, is there a part of that statement that's untrue? Especially if your vote for Biden is unaccompanied by any act of protest, donations, a call to your Congressman, anything in recognition of the evil he is responsible for?
To a lesser extent I side-eye people who insist that any development that seems positive is actually doomed from the outset, or a nefarious strategy to actually make the situation worse.
Side-eye away but this isn't knee-jerk childish cynicism--it's having paid attention to this issue for many years and knowing that US intervention in Palestine has historically only ever had one goal.
And also, taking Biden, who has many, many times claimed to be an ardent Zionist who has repeatedly justified Israeli war crimes over many decades, at his word.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:40 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
It's a bit annoying to see the idea of Israeli vacation developments as something that Trump would permit where Biden would not. Under Biden, there are organizations using synagogues in the US (and Canada) to promote exactly those projects, and I haven't seen any evidence that the Biden administration (or, for that matter, any level of Canadian government) do any more than pay lip service to the idea that these settlements are bad.
People seem willing to ignore things Biden has done and said, in order to make the differences between him and Trump look more drastic.
posted by sagc at 12:50 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
People seem willing to ignore things Biden has done and said, in order to make the differences between him and Trump look more drastic.
posted by sagc at 12:50 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
Because there are multiple people in this thread who seem to view literally any criticism of Biden as purely pro-Trump. That seems... wildly anti-democratic to me?
And "when people show you who they are, believe them."
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:54 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
And "when people show you who they are, believe them."
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 12:54 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
How about I grant all of that, and still think it's foolish to consider Biden's Israel/Palestine record as the single issue worth considering this election?
posted by otsebyatina at 12:56 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
posted by otsebyatina at 12:56 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
People seem willing to ignore things Biden has done and said
Things like imposing sanctions on Israeli settlers by executive order?
And it's not a giant stretch of the imagination to think that Trump would try to stake out a piece of that resort property to put his name on a golf course or something similar. Are we having amnesia about how much of his foreign policy was based on personal grifting??! The only principle is how much Trump can personally benefit. He doesn't even pretend to give a shit!
Oh, sorry, forgot--the other principle is what will please his Dominionist death cult voter base. And they certainly don't have any thought for the wellbeing of Palestine, at all, not even a little bit.
And these aren't hypotheticals--they're things that Trump and his supporters have already done and said. There is zero reason to believe they'd proceed more gently.
posted by knotty knots at 1:03 PM on March 8 [15 favorites]
Things like imposing sanctions on Israeli settlers by executive order?
And it's not a giant stretch of the imagination to think that Trump would try to stake out a piece of that resort property to put his name on a golf course or something similar. Are we having amnesia about how much of his foreign policy was based on personal grifting??! The only principle is how much Trump can personally benefit. He doesn't even pretend to give a shit!
Oh, sorry, forgot--the other principle is what will please his Dominionist death cult voter base. And they certainly don't have any thought for the wellbeing of Palestine, at all, not even a little bit.
And these aren't hypotheticals--they're things that Trump and his supporters have already done and said. There is zero reason to believe they'd proceed more gently.
posted by knotty knots at 1:03 PM on March 8 [15 favorites]
I like to remind myself that voting doesn’t have to be "select your champion.” It can also be “select your opponent.” Like, I can be opposed to both candidates and still want to choose which one of them I’d rather have in power. I can vote for that person and continue to oppose them.
posted by mbrubeck at 1:07 PM on March 8 [28 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 1:07 PM on March 8 [28 favorites]
1933.
"My Serious Reservations About Otto Wels & Ernst Thälmann"
In this essay, I will
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:08 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
"My Serious Reservations About Otto Wels & Ernst Thälmann"
In this essay, I will
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:08 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
"SWEETIE, please DON’T go in the KITCHEN. I am delivering my State of the Union response!
"Fellow MOMS, if you are like me, you lie awake at 2 a.m., wondering how you can BE in three places at once: this KITCHEN, the Senate and the opening monologue of a Purge movie. But you see, we CAN do it, by WHISPERING slowly with an intensity usually reserved for WASP moms trying to prevent their daughters from making a SCENE in the J. Crew fitting rooms. (We’re not LEAVING yet PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER.)" (Alexandra Petri column)
Why Biden cited FDR’s ‘Four Freedoms’ speech in his State of the Union (by Frederic J. Frommer, a writer and a sports and politics historian)
Biden buys new ads, hits the trail after State of the Union address. The president will travel to at least four states in a week, with stops in Pennsylvania, Georgia, New Hampshire and Michigan. The heavy schedule will be accompanied by a series of campaign announcements of office openings, volunteer opportunities and coalition groups meant to trigger the involvement of Biden supporters in the eight targeted swing states where the campaign is operating. The $30 million ad campaign will run on television, radio, streaming services and other digital networks, including outlets focused on Black, Hispanic and Asian American audiences in key states, officials said. The buy follows a more than $25 million ad campaign that ran over the last five months of 2023.
Biden will also appear at a March 28 fundraiser with former presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, along with comedian Stephen Colbert, who will moderate the discussion. (all, Washington Post)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:11 PM on March 8 [12 favorites]
"Fellow MOMS, if you are like me, you lie awake at 2 a.m., wondering how you can BE in three places at once: this KITCHEN, the Senate and the opening monologue of a Purge movie. But you see, we CAN do it, by WHISPERING slowly with an intensity usually reserved for WASP moms trying to prevent their daughters from making a SCENE in the J. Crew fitting rooms. (We’re not LEAVING yet PULL YOURSELF TOGETHER.)" (Alexandra Petri column)
Why Biden cited FDR’s ‘Four Freedoms’ speech in his State of the Union (by Frederic J. Frommer, a writer and a sports and politics historian)
Biden buys new ads, hits the trail after State of the Union address. The president will travel to at least four states in a week, with stops in Pennsylvania, Georgia, New Hampshire and Michigan. The heavy schedule will be accompanied by a series of campaign announcements of office openings, volunteer opportunities and coalition groups meant to trigger the involvement of Biden supporters in the eight targeted swing states where the campaign is operating. The $30 million ad campaign will run on television, radio, streaming services and other digital networks, including outlets focused on Black, Hispanic and Asian American audiences in key states, officials said. The buy follows a more than $25 million ad campaign that ran over the last five months of 2023.
Biden will also appear at a March 28 fundraiser with former presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, along with comedian Stephen Colbert, who will moderate the discussion. (all, Washington Post)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:11 PM on March 8 [12 favorites]
Maybe it hits different for me, as someone who lives in Texas and has Hispanic family, when Biden uses the same border rhetoric as Trump.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:15 PM on March 8 [21 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:15 PM on March 8 [21 favorites]
(and as a Texas of resident, my vote for President is utterly meaningless)
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:16 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:16 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Everybody realizes that Putin had his friends in Iran engineer the Hamas attacks to drive wedges into NATO and US elections, right?
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:24 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:24 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
I am concerned about domestic issues, I’m concerned about how it’s been barely 4 years and they’re already doing away with middling progress they made after George Floyd’s murder. I am concerned as an Ohioan too. I don’t want trump anywhere near the White House. I don't really know how to square that with concerns about Gaza. Nothing feels “right” for lack of a better statement.
posted by girlmightlive at 1:28 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
posted by girlmightlive at 1:28 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
(and as a Texas of resident, my vote for President is utterly meaningless)
I wonder what would happen if Biden won the EC but lost the popular vote…
posted by girlmightlive at 1:29 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
I wonder what would happen if Biden won the EC but lost the popular vote…
posted by girlmightlive at 1:29 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Yeah this is very classic metafilter liberal "Listen! To! Non! White! Voters!" followed by "Noooo....not like thatt!!!"
My take is that Biden proved that he does, in fact, got that dog in him last night. He delivered a really strong speech. I was genuinely glad and relieved as a Biden cynic myself! But everyone seems to be acting like he hit a home run when in reality he finally hit a single after striking out all year. Biden has been suffering from perception issues. That is the real world that people seem to be refusing to acknowledge. He had been generally avoiding the public much more than other presidents at this juncture of their re-election campaign, and leaving everyone to speculate more over his mental faculties with every newly released video of him spacing out. When Biden spoke last night, we all know that he was speaking directly to those concerns. We also all know that he's going to have to get a lot more hits like this in if he wants to get some actual runs on the board and win.
On matters of Israel and Gaza, there are voter concerns ranging from "he has zero handle on this mess of a situation" to "he is directly arming and funding a genocide". Like his performance last night, it is completely on Biden to hear out those concerns and figure out a way to address them - if he even finds those concerns and those voters important, that is! Or maybe he doesn't - I brought this up in another thread but still confused about which one it is, these oh so problematic single-issue Gaza voters - are they a significant voting bloc and a serious threat to his re-election? Or do they not matter, ignore it, keep chugging along with this cynical bare-minimum PR shit that him and his administration has been doing the past five months?
In either case, it is on him and his team to either deliver something to this group or not. Squawking about how "Trump Worse" or "Biden Is Good Actually, You Idiots" or "Everyone shut the fuck up and just join our Biden Positive PR Internet Team" is not gonna cut it and I'm wondering when liberals are ever going to realize this. I can see how it's frustrating but at a certain point you have to just concede that people don't care - call them ignorant or privileged or tools of the GOP and Russia all you want! And then when it's all out of your system time to accept that many of these people aren't going to operate the way you want them to, and then from there have a serious think about what the next move is. Does Biden need to be pushed to address these concerns? Or do they not matter at all, fuck 'em, throw 'em in the fire and take the gamble. Which one is it?
posted by windbox at 1:34 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
My take is that Biden proved that he does, in fact, got that dog in him last night. He delivered a really strong speech. I was genuinely glad and relieved as a Biden cynic myself! But everyone seems to be acting like he hit a home run when in reality he finally hit a single after striking out all year. Biden has been suffering from perception issues. That is the real world that people seem to be refusing to acknowledge. He had been generally avoiding the public much more than other presidents at this juncture of their re-election campaign, and leaving everyone to speculate more over his mental faculties with every newly released video of him spacing out. When Biden spoke last night, we all know that he was speaking directly to those concerns. We also all know that he's going to have to get a lot more hits like this in if he wants to get some actual runs on the board and win.
On matters of Israel and Gaza, there are voter concerns ranging from "he has zero handle on this mess of a situation" to "he is directly arming and funding a genocide". Like his performance last night, it is completely on Biden to hear out those concerns and figure out a way to address them - if he even finds those concerns and those voters important, that is! Or maybe he doesn't - I brought this up in another thread but still confused about which one it is, these oh so problematic single-issue Gaza voters - are they a significant voting bloc and a serious threat to his re-election? Or do they not matter, ignore it, keep chugging along with this cynical bare-minimum PR shit that him and his administration has been doing the past five months?
In either case, it is on him and his team to either deliver something to this group or not. Squawking about how "Trump Worse" or "Biden Is Good Actually, You Idiots" or "Everyone shut the fuck up and just join our Biden Positive PR Internet Team" is not gonna cut it and I'm wondering when liberals are ever going to realize this. I can see how it's frustrating but at a certain point you have to just concede that people don't care - call them ignorant or privileged or tools of the GOP and Russia all you want! And then when it's all out of your system time to accept that many of these people aren't going to operate the way you want them to, and then from there have a serious think about what the next move is. Does Biden need to be pushed to address these concerns? Or do they not matter at all, fuck 'em, throw 'em in the fire and take the gamble. Which one is it?
posted by windbox at 1:34 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
I’m not trying to be an asshole but I really don’t understand what your last paragraph means
posted by bq at 1:39 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 1:39 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
It's highlighting the contradiction between saying "your concerns are niche and ignorable" and "you've got enough power that we're going to need you to stop voicing your concerns". (imo)
posted by sagc at 1:42 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:42 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
I dunno I feel like most of this discussion on MF is just battling fears and anger. One side is screaming about people dying right now pay attention to the people dying and the other side is screaming but what if he wins holy shit and nobody is wrong in this screaming match. But it’s not like we have anyone else to scream at so we end up screaming at each other.
To move back to the speech itself - strong start, he wavered several times as the speech went longer, got a lot of good sound bites in that will play well with the press, and had some stumbles that had me on the edge of my seat until he got back on track. B+. More importantly the press coverage is excellent and positive. A lot more people will see the headlines and hear the vibe than watched the speech itself. So I’m very happy about that.
posted by bq at 1:55 PM on March 8 [34 favorites]
To move back to the speech itself - strong start, he wavered several times as the speech went longer, got a lot of good sound bites in that will play well with the press, and had some stumbles that had me on the edge of my seat until he got back on track. B+. More importantly the press coverage is excellent and positive. A lot more people will see the headlines and hear the vibe than watched the speech itself. So I’m very happy about that.
posted by bq at 1:55 PM on March 8 [34 favorites]
Trump breaks silence on Israel's military campaign in Gaza: 'Finish the problem': The former president has largely avoided weighing in on Gaza as President Joe Biden has faced criticism from within the Democratic coalition over his support for Israel.
...
“You’ve got to finish the problem,” Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war. “You had a horrible invasion that took place that would have never happened if I was president.”
—
Not much to go on in terms of specifics, mostly preening about how none of this would have happened if he were in charge. Not any mention of relief for Palestinians either.
posted by mazola at 2:01 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
...
“You’ve got to finish the problem,” Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war. “You had a horrible invasion that took place that would have never happened if I was president.”
—
Not much to go on in terms of specifics, mostly preening about how none of this would have happened if he were in charge. Not any mention of relief for Palestinians either.
posted by mazola at 2:01 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
I think it was a strong performance for the most part. The section on Israel/Palestine wasn't great-- I'm glad he at least talked about Palestinians, more than I actually expected him to, but it's frustrating that the baseline in mainstream American politics when it comes to Israel is still uncritical, unthinking support to the expense of all else, including Palestinian lives. Biden is far from alone in that and I do think he's shifting that window inch by inch, but it's still frustrating. I also wasn't a fan of him borrowing right-wing verbiage for undocumented immigrants.
But overall, the guy delivered a knockout blow to all the whinging about him being too old and too frail and too addled-- not in the sense that the speech will end those concerns outright, but in the sense that I think most sincerely undecided voters who aren't super engaged but have picked up on the constant media circus about Biden's age and clarity would, if they watched this, find those concerns allayed. They would see a president perfectly capable not only of speaking forcefully and with moral clarity but of sparring with Republican hecklers and beating them at their own game. You might say that's a low bar, but Americans are being fed headlines all the time about how Biden is at best a "well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" (to quote the notorious Hur report) and at worst a dementia-addled senior who doesn't know where or who he is.
This speech was an opportunity to change that narrative. And if you look at the headlines-- calling the speech fiery or feisty, highlighting his willingness to shoot back when Republicans take shots, even accusing him of having too much energy-- I'd say he did that and more. He implicitly framed the choice between himself and Trump as a choice between moving forward and being dragged back (even referring to Trump as 'my predecessor' was a small but smart choice to reinforce that sense) and drew exactly the kinds of sharp contrasts between his vision and Trump's/Republicans' that he needed to draw.
Your average voter won't watch this speech, but they'll read the headlines and think twice about the image Republicans (and frankly the media at large) have thus far successfully presented, and that gives Biden a foundation to really launch his reelection campaign in earnest. And considering he's following the speech with barnstorming visits to swing states and a massive ad buy, that seems to be exactly what he's doing.
(Also, can I just say... it's astounding that congressional Republicans somehow fell for the same trap twice in a row. At some point they're gonna have to learn that heckling Joe Biden during a State of the Union address never ends up working out for them.)
posted by Method Man at 2:06 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
But overall, the guy delivered a knockout blow to all the whinging about him being too old and too frail and too addled-- not in the sense that the speech will end those concerns outright, but in the sense that I think most sincerely undecided voters who aren't super engaged but have picked up on the constant media circus about Biden's age and clarity would, if they watched this, find those concerns allayed. They would see a president perfectly capable not only of speaking forcefully and with moral clarity but of sparring with Republican hecklers and beating them at their own game. You might say that's a low bar, but Americans are being fed headlines all the time about how Biden is at best a "well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory" (to quote the notorious Hur report) and at worst a dementia-addled senior who doesn't know where or who he is.
This speech was an opportunity to change that narrative. And if you look at the headlines-- calling the speech fiery or feisty, highlighting his willingness to shoot back when Republicans take shots, even accusing him of having too much energy-- I'd say he did that and more. He implicitly framed the choice between himself and Trump as a choice between moving forward and being dragged back (even referring to Trump as 'my predecessor' was a small but smart choice to reinforce that sense) and drew exactly the kinds of sharp contrasts between his vision and Trump's/Republicans' that he needed to draw.
Your average voter won't watch this speech, but they'll read the headlines and think twice about the image Republicans (and frankly the media at large) have thus far successfully presented, and that gives Biden a foundation to really launch his reelection campaign in earnest. And considering he's following the speech with barnstorming visits to swing states and a massive ad buy, that seems to be exactly what he's doing.
(Also, can I just say... it's astounding that congressional Republicans somehow fell for the same trap twice in a row. At some point they're gonna have to learn that heckling Joe Biden during a State of the Union address never ends up working out for them.)
posted by Method Man at 2:06 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
I was really upset by the "illegals" comment and wasn't entirely sure what he was responding to - did he echo language used by the person who heckled right before him? I just had an emotional response to the term. Obviously it won't effect how I vote.
posted by joannemerriam at 2:10 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by joannemerriam at 2:10 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
I was really upset by the "illegals" comment and wasn't entirely sure what he was responding to - did he echo language used by the person who heckled right before him? I just had an emotional response to the term. Obviously it won't effect how I vote.
I've heard at least a couple of folks speculate that it was his stutter kicking in and causing him to, as you said, echo the language used by the heckler.
Did you not hear the part of the speech where he said he's directing the US Military to build a temporary harbor/dock/pier something so they can delivery aid by the water since the land borders are being blockaded?
I did hear it and I think that's great. But I wish he were more willing to publicly take Netanyahu-- a guy who, on top of his astonishing crimes against Palestinians, absolutely would not hesitate to throw Biden under the bus to elect Republicans the way he has consistently done to Democratic presidents-- to task the way, according to private reports, he sincerely wants to. I've gotten into my views on Biden, Israel, and Palestine on this site lots and I don't really want to get drawn into it again here, so I'll leave that there.
posted by Method Man at 2:16 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
I've heard at least a couple of folks speculate that it was his stutter kicking in and causing him to, as you said, echo the language used by the heckler.
Did you not hear the part of the speech where he said he's directing the US Military to build a temporary harbor/dock/pier something so they can delivery aid by the water since the land borders are being blockaded?
I did hear it and I think that's great. But I wish he were more willing to publicly take Netanyahu-- a guy who, on top of his astonishing crimes against Palestinians, absolutely would not hesitate to throw Biden under the bus to elect Republicans the way he has consistently done to Democratic presidents-- to task the way, according to private reports, he sincerely wants to. I've gotten into my views on Biden, Israel, and Palestine on this site lots and I don't really want to get drawn into it again here, so I'll leave that there.
posted by Method Man at 2:16 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Let's talk about Hungary for a minute.
Let's talk about Viktor Orbán, but let's talk briefly first about Attila Mesterházy.
Attila Mesterházy ran against Orbán in 2010. (Orbán who had served as PM before, was ousted in an election he complained about and then ran again.) It's a multi-party system, so other people ran too, but Mesterházy was the one who had a chance to win.
We knew Hungarian leftists who hated Mesterházy. They talked about it all the time. He was a relentless cronyist. His campaign was uninspired and did not speak to left-wing causes. He was beholden to a relentless group of aging careerists who took voters for granted.
Orbán ran on a platform specifying the many ways in which he was going to permanently cement its power beyond its term, force its Christian ideology on the country ("fetal protection" was a big focus), limit civil liberties. The people who hated Mesterházy heard them as they said these things about what they were planning to do to the country, but I don't think it really registered that if he lost this election, they'd be living in a different country afterward.
Pretty soon they really were living in a different country. Well, under a different constitution, anyway. Orbán's party, upon assuming power, drafted a new Constitution that suited them better. They limited the number of rounds of voting to reduce the power of opposition parties. They halved the number of MPs. They gerrymandered the hell out of everything. They made it illegal to campaign for office on TV or radio, but reserved the right for the sitting government to release "important messages about issues" via the same outlets. They limited party budgets, but outsourced their own advertising to the government.
In later years, they amended the Constitution again to further cement their power. They stripped powers and rights from municipal and regional governments to punish liberal cities and quash opposition. Recently, they've given the PM the right to rule by decree, to suspend elections, to issue prison sentences on reporters for items he deems "fake news." He assumed control of 11 public universities and restructured them to educate the next generation of Hungarian conservatives.
Don't take my word on how bad this is, because I'm not Hungarian myself, I'm only related to Hungarians. They can probably list five times as many outrages, all fully baked into the government, nearly impossible to undo.
Donald Trump's Project 25 is based on what Orbán has done. He plans on doing the same thing, on enacting an agenda whose primary purpose is to change laws, office holders, judges, appointees, and regulations to make sure his side never loses power again. The GOP keeps inviting leaders from Fidesz to events and literally asking for advice on how to do what they did. Project 25 is step one.
So getting back to the point, yes, it is absolutely your right to call Joe Biden on the carpet for any damn thing you want.
You may not have rights like these for much longer, though, if Biden fails to beat Trump in 2024. That's not an exaggerated scenario, that's a hard reality that people are living with in Hungary, people who once though their most important duty as a citizen was to exopose what a flawed, damaging leader Attila Mesterházy would be.
So maybe keep that in mind.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:17 PM on March 8 [62 favorites]
Let's talk about Viktor Orbán, but let's talk briefly first about Attila Mesterházy.
Attila Mesterházy ran against Orbán in 2010. (Orbán who had served as PM before, was ousted in an election he complained about and then ran again.) It's a multi-party system, so other people ran too, but Mesterházy was the one who had a chance to win.
We knew Hungarian leftists who hated Mesterházy. They talked about it all the time. He was a relentless cronyist. His campaign was uninspired and did not speak to left-wing causes. He was beholden to a relentless group of aging careerists who took voters for granted.
Orbán ran on a platform specifying the many ways in which he was going to permanently cement its power beyond its term, force its Christian ideology on the country ("fetal protection" was a big focus), limit civil liberties. The people who hated Mesterházy heard them as they said these things about what they were planning to do to the country, but I don't think it really registered that if he lost this election, they'd be living in a different country afterward.
Pretty soon they really were living in a different country. Well, under a different constitution, anyway. Orbán's party, upon assuming power, drafted a new Constitution that suited them better. They limited the number of rounds of voting to reduce the power of opposition parties. They halved the number of MPs. They gerrymandered the hell out of everything. They made it illegal to campaign for office on TV or radio, but reserved the right for the sitting government to release "important messages about issues" via the same outlets. They limited party budgets, but outsourced their own advertising to the government.
In later years, they amended the Constitution again to further cement their power. They stripped powers and rights from municipal and regional governments to punish liberal cities and quash opposition. Recently, they've given the PM the right to rule by decree, to suspend elections, to issue prison sentences on reporters for items he deems "fake news." He assumed control of 11 public universities and restructured them to educate the next generation of Hungarian conservatives.
Don't take my word on how bad this is, because I'm not Hungarian myself, I'm only related to Hungarians. They can probably list five times as many outrages, all fully baked into the government, nearly impossible to undo.
Donald Trump's Project 25 is based on what Orbán has done. He plans on doing the same thing, on enacting an agenda whose primary purpose is to change laws, office holders, judges, appointees, and regulations to make sure his side never loses power again. The GOP keeps inviting leaders from Fidesz to events and literally asking for advice on how to do what they did. Project 25 is step one.
So getting back to the point, yes, it is absolutely your right to call Joe Biden on the carpet for any damn thing you want.
You may not have rights like these for much longer, though, if Biden fails to beat Trump in 2024. That's not an exaggerated scenario, that's a hard reality that people are living with in Hungary, people who once though their most important duty as a citizen was to exopose what a flawed, damaging leader Attila Mesterházy would be.
So maybe keep that in mind.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:17 PM on March 8 [62 favorites]
We did a gigantic one on Normandy after we secured the beachfront.
That were the UK.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:20 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
That were the UK.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:20 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Good job providing no evidence that it was somehow majorly the fault of left-wing criticisms of Mesterházy that Orban won, DirtyOldTown!
posted by sagc at 2:22 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:22 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
Okay. Good luck.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:23 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:23 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
Seriously, that's a gross comment. Is the idea that you're going to be going around telling Muslim-Americans after the election that whatever is happening to them is their fault because they weren't sufficiently deferent to Biden?
posted by sagc at 2:23 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:23 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
I'm saying some elections are about what type of leader our government should have today and what their positions should be right now and some are about what the shape of the government will be for the foreseeable future and whether that can ever be changed again.
I don't know that improved support of Mesterházy could have helped him win, this is true.
Maybe nothing can save Biden. But if Biden loses, I have legitimate concern that we may never get to have the same conversations about power in the United States ever again. From a structural level, we will not be living in the same place. And keeping that from happening is my number one voting issue.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:27 PM on March 8 [28 favorites]
I don't know that improved support of Mesterházy could have helped him win, this is true.
Maybe nothing can save Biden. But if Biden loses, I have legitimate concern that we may never get to have the same conversations about power in the United States ever again. From a structural level, we will not be living in the same place. And keeping that from happening is my number one voting issue.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:27 PM on March 8 [28 favorites]
And these aren't hypotheticals--they're things that Trump and his supporters have already done and said. There is zero reason to believe they'd proceed more gently.
Republicans functionally conspired to murder a trans child in Oklahoma.
Republicans have promised to hunt down and prosecute women who leave red states to get life-saving abortions, if not allow pregnant women to die even if they need healthcare.
Republicans and border control conspired to keep Muslims out of the country and prevent Muslim-Americans from re-entering the country during the Trump administration.
If the reins are taken off Fascist Republicanism, get ready for more of that on a much broader scale.
Say whatever you please about Biden, and some of it I'll agree with, but there's a pretty stark, life-or-death choice being offered to (royal) you.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:29 PM on March 8 [23 favorites]
Republicans functionally conspired to murder a trans child in Oklahoma.
Republicans have promised to hunt down and prosecute women who leave red states to get life-saving abortions, if not allow pregnant women to die even if they need healthcare.
Republicans and border control conspired to keep Muslims out of the country and prevent Muslim-Americans from re-entering the country during the Trump administration.
If the reins are taken off Fascist Republicanism, get ready for more of that on a much broader scale.
Say whatever you please about Biden, and some of it I'll agree with, but there's a pretty stark, life-or-death choice being offered to (royal) you.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:29 PM on March 8 [23 favorites]
When he said “Wall Street didn’t build America, the middle class did. And unions built the middle class!” I gasped. I hadn’t thought I’d ever hear that from a president in a SOTU address.
My father’s ancestors came to Chicago from northeastern Germany when times were hard in the late 1800’s. They were in the trades over there and here.
Our last name was pretty rare there and here. The ones who stayed in Germany were trade unionists through and through. They were eventually rounded up by the Nazis and worked to death in the camps. Now the name is vanishingly rare in Germany.
I live in Japan where the rationale for trashing unions is the same as the Nazis’, that unions are communists and communists are North Koreans or Soviets, respectively.
I consider it a family tradition to support unions because if we don’t, they will kill us all.
So, fuck yeah Joe Biden!
I care about the deeply problematic US stances and entangling alliances that mean my country supports genocide by Israel against the Palestinians, but I also can see that refusing to support Biden means risking a presidency that encourages a second ongoing genocide, that of Russia against the Ukrainians.
I see it as an easy and bitter choice between on one hand, one major genocide, and on the other hand, two major genocides plus an encouragement for more from Russia, as well as a high probability of major engagement with Iran…
I guess if that’s not your calculus, do what you want with your vote. I hope you live somewhere that your protest doesn’t tip the scale towards the horror and chaos.
Yes, we’re running out of time in a lot of ways, and no, we should never support genocide. It’s a bad choice but the choice is clear. Stay home if it doesn’t matter but don’t let the predecessor back in. They will kill us all.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:38 PM on March 8 [19 favorites]
My father’s ancestors came to Chicago from northeastern Germany when times were hard in the late 1800’s. They were in the trades over there and here.
Our last name was pretty rare there and here. The ones who stayed in Germany were trade unionists through and through. They were eventually rounded up by the Nazis and worked to death in the camps. Now the name is vanishingly rare in Germany.
I live in Japan where the rationale for trashing unions is the same as the Nazis’, that unions are communists and communists are North Koreans or Soviets, respectively.
I consider it a family tradition to support unions because if we don’t, they will kill us all.
So, fuck yeah Joe Biden!
I care about the deeply problematic US stances and entangling alliances that mean my country supports genocide by Israel against the Palestinians, but I also can see that refusing to support Biden means risking a presidency that encourages a second ongoing genocide, that of Russia against the Ukrainians.
I see it as an easy and bitter choice between on one hand, one major genocide, and on the other hand, two major genocides plus an encouragement for more from Russia, as well as a high probability of major engagement with Iran…
I guess if that’s not your calculus, do what you want with your vote. I hope you live somewhere that your protest doesn’t tip the scale towards the horror and chaos.
Yes, we’re running out of time in a lot of ways, and no, we should never support genocide. It’s a bad choice but the choice is clear. Stay home if it doesn’t matter but don’t let the predecessor back in. They will kill us all.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:38 PM on March 8 [19 favorites]
Yeah, they will kill us all. That's the threat now, not just marginalized groups. So the anti-genocide folks (me included) are very much practicing Mutually Assured Destruction over the very worst type of crime that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. There's no use in trying anything with the GOP, leveraging the Democrats into a position that's back over the line from genocide agnostic is the only play.
And maybe by November things are improved, Israel hasn't bombed the pier, and other minor miracles happen. Or maybe by November there's fewer than a million Palestinians in Rafah, settlements are going up in North Gaza, and a horrific echoing silence exists in the land between the two as ~5% of the voting electorate gives the ballot a thousand yard stare.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:51 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
And maybe by November things are improved, Israel hasn't bombed the pier, and other minor miracles happen. Or maybe by November there's fewer than a million Palestinians in Rafah, settlements are going up in North Gaza, and a horrific echoing silence exists in the land between the two as ~5% of the voting electorate gives the ballot a thousand yard stare.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:51 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
I've heard at least a couple of folks speculate that it was his stutter kicking in and causing him to, as you said, echo the language used by the heckler.
He made it clear today that he stands by his use of the term "illegal," saying "technically, he's not supposed to be here."
Biden is who he always was, and that's someone with very little empathy for disaffected populations.
Nothing will fundamentally change, after all.
posted by Gadarene at 2:59 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
He made it clear today that he stands by his use of the term "illegal," saying "technically, he's not supposed to be here."
Biden is who he always was, and that's someone with very little empathy for disaffected populations.
Nothing will fundamentally change, after all.
posted by Gadarene at 2:59 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
I really wish there was a way I could conduct myself in this election that would be guaranteed to help the people of Palestine, to free them from this horrible war and genocide. I don't see one. Biden wins: it's bad. Trump wins: at least as bad, unless he can find a way to make it worse.
But I'll take the chances that we can push Biden into coming around on I/P if he wins this election over the alarming possibility that there won't truly be another election as we know them now if he loses.
In addition to my Palestinian friends, I'm also losing sleep over my trans friends, the people I know who can get pregnant and want to control their bodies, my Black friends who are having a hard enough time with the ground lost already. I cannot risk hanging them out to dry, all for the comfort of knowing I sent a message, even a vitally important one.
I'm not faulting anyone for not doing the math the same way. It's a horrible fucking choice.
I fucking hate 2024.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:59 PM on March 8 [22 favorites]
But I'll take the chances that we can push Biden into coming around on I/P if he wins this election over the alarming possibility that there won't truly be another election as we know them now if he loses.
In addition to my Palestinian friends, I'm also losing sleep over my trans friends, the people I know who can get pregnant and want to control their bodies, my Black friends who are having a hard enough time with the ground lost already. I cannot risk hanging them out to dry, all for the comfort of knowing I sent a message, even a vitally important one.
I'm not faulting anyone for not doing the math the same way. It's a horrible fucking choice.
I fucking hate 2024.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:59 PM on March 8 [22 favorites]
I'm gonna shut up now, but I want to make one thing clear: I'm not mad at anybody here.
All of these choices suck and we're doing our best.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:05 PM on March 8 [17 favorites]
All of these choices suck and we're doing our best.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:05 PM on March 8 [17 favorites]
Perhaps you should consider Biden’s current immigration policies vs his word choice last night when discussing an alleged murderer. For example Biden has processed record numbers of asylum applications and enabled millions of people to be obtain legal status to live and work here.
posted by interogative mood at 3:07 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:07 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
Perhaps you should consider Biden’s current immigration policies vs his word choice last night when discussing an alleged murderer. For example Biden has processed record numbers of asylum applications and enabled millions of people to be obtain legal status to live and work here.
The Biden administration is championing making it even harder to claim asylum than it already is, fwiw, and it is already extremely burdensome and difficult.
Like, saying that we should consider his immigration policies when he is standing fully behind the Stephen Miller-esque border bill is a little bonkers.
posted by Gadarene at 3:41 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
The Biden administration is championing making it even harder to claim asylum than it already is, fwiw, and it is already extremely burdensome and difficult.
Like, saying that we should consider his immigration policies when he is standing fully behind the Stephen Miller-esque border bill is a little bonkers.
posted by Gadarene at 3:41 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
His current policy preference is FULLY consonant with his use of the term "illegal" as a noun, in other words.
posted by Gadarene at 3:43 PM on March 8 [8 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 3:43 PM on March 8 [8 favorites]
According to CBSNews the number is over 1 million for the parole program alone. Paroled individuals have the right to reside and work in the US on a temporary basis.
posted by interogative mood at 3:47 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:47 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
Despite our desires, the US is a country that is shitty and weird about the Middle East just like we're a country that elected Donald f-ing Trump to be our president. It's who we are, like it or not, and while the conversation shouldn't end there, the logic of deciding your vote on just that one thing that all candidates are going to do...seems also weird. That strengthening political divisions in this country over I-P issues that are both hard and unlikely to be solved by either candidate (due to personal disposition, avarice, or w/e) feels like a kayfabe and/or meddling, and at any rate can be discarded as a deciding factor. I mean, Trump said "finish the problem," so how come that isn't wholly disqualifying, preferring to decide on "isn't finishing the problem" instead?!
George Lakoff had some good stuff to say about some of the ways political discussions are being waged in the US these days.
posted by rhizome at 4:04 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
George Lakoff had some good stuff to say about some of the ways political discussions are being waged in the US these days.
posted by rhizome at 4:04 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
I mean, Trump said "finish the problem," so how come that isn't wholly disqualifying, preferring to decide on "isn't finishing the problem" instead?!
I mentioned this in another thread, but Biden ("finish the job") and Linda Thomas-Greenfield ("final solution") (!!!) have also used problematic language when discussing the Biden administration's preferred outcomes in Gaza.
Trump is a huge piece of shit and should be wholly disqualified for dozens upon dozens of reasons, but on this particular topic Biden is not much better.
posted by Gadarene at 4:09 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
I mentioned this in another thread, but Biden ("finish the job") and Linda Thomas-Greenfield ("final solution") (!!!) have also used problematic language when discussing the Biden administration's preferred outcomes in Gaza.
Trump is a huge piece of shit and should be wholly disqualified for dozens upon dozens of reasons, but on this particular topic Biden is not much better.
posted by Gadarene at 4:09 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
(Also, can I just say... it's astounding that congressional Republicans somehow fell for the same trap twice in a row. At some point they're gonna have to learn that heckling Joe Biden during a State of the Union address never ends up working out for them.)
posted by Method Man
That was a weird moment. Very pleased they did fall for it again. But also more than a little disturbing that they did. Apparently they really are that fucking stupid.
posted by Pouteria at 4:17 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
posted by Method Man
That was a weird moment. Very pleased they did fall for it again. But also more than a little disturbing that they did. Apparently they really are that fucking stupid.
posted by Pouteria at 4:17 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
Among other things, Biden: ended anti-Muslim travel bans, halted the building of the border wall, revoked the expansion of "immigration enforcement," reinstated undocumented immigrants in the census, endorsed the US Citizens Act, reinstated the Consideration of Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA/"Dreamers") program, and revoked the order justifying family separations at the border.
Via pen. On his first day in office.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:29 PM on March 8 [20 favorites]
Via pen. On his first day in office.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:29 PM on March 8 [20 favorites]
Family separations are still routinely happening, as far as I'm aware. Or I might just be thinking of kids in cages.
posted by Gadarene at 5:35 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 5:35 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Maybe this is a small aside...
I just watched "The Republican Response" because so many people and websites have mentioned it.
1. How the heck is that a response? Britt did "respond" to some of the SOTU, but largely got a free campaign ad in for the Rs?
2. To be fair, Biden's SOTU also did come across as a campaign speech. I'll agree with a lot of people that have said he was actually looking great, held the room, reinforced a lot of the things actually accomplished, etc. but, geez.... those were sprinkles on the campaign speech cookie.
3. Back to Senator Britt. She said at the start and end of her "response" that she was in her kitchen. The background was CLEARLY added in. It was so clear that, watching the CBS feed, when they cut back to the anchors, you could see the same exact line around the commenters.
I know that would be a small point for some. Probably not a point at all for anyone deep in the R tank. But, seriously, if you are trying to persuade me to your point of view don't lie to me from the very start and then remind me at the very end you have lied to me.
I'll be having a meal or two with fam that... may be influenced by the response. I'll share when I hear what they say (without prompting. They'll just bring up the conversation.) either here or in the next related thread (as we're probably getting into megathread zone)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:45 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
I just watched "The Republican Response" because so many people and websites have mentioned it.
1. How the heck is that a response? Britt did "respond" to some of the SOTU, but largely got a free campaign ad in for the Rs?
2. To be fair, Biden's SOTU also did come across as a campaign speech. I'll agree with a lot of people that have said he was actually looking great, held the room, reinforced a lot of the things actually accomplished, etc. but, geez.... those were sprinkles on the campaign speech cookie.
3. Back to Senator Britt. She said at the start and end of her "response" that she was in her kitchen. The background was CLEARLY added in. It was so clear that, watching the CBS feed, when they cut back to the anchors, you could see the same exact line around the commenters.
I know that would be a small point for some. Probably not a point at all for anyone deep in the R tank. But, seriously, if you are trying to persuade me to your point of view don't lie to me from the very start and then remind me at the very end you have lied to me.
I'll be having a meal or two with fam that... may be influenced by the response. I'll share when I hear what they say (without prompting. They'll just bring up the conversation.) either here or in the next related thread (as we're probably getting into megathread zone)
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:45 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
a non mouse: The Fundie Baby Voice (Jess Piper, Substack)
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:14 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:14 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
halted the building of the border wall
He's approved building up the border wall since then.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:24 PM on March 8 [8 favorites]
He's approved building up the border wall since then.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:24 PM on March 8 [8 favorites]
polling clearly indicates that americans are (stupidly) anxious about immigration from latin america. it's a stupid concern. latin american migrants are a net positive for the country, and not just because i love taco trucks. we need the population growth, the labor inflow, the stimulus. They're on the whole great people we should welcome amongst us, and at a macro level, elder and peak millienials aren't having children (i'm not!), so the tax base is drying up, if we don't grow our population there will be nobody, of any provenance, to support the healthcare and social security benefits for people in their 30s now, 30 years from now. If people want to come here and seek a better life, and start families, and contribute to our society, we should encourage it, we should be offering them tax incentives and childcare benefits, or cash payments. the fear is pure stupidity. but the polls are clear: americans don't like immigrants. so biden, like democratic politicos before him, is enslaved to polls. he even moderated (slightly) his clear full backing of the genocide in gaza by mention of the death toll and with the worthless proposal of some adhoc pier for aid delivery, as if tying an MRE onto a clusterbomb evened the score. the polls took him there too (not his sincere belief, that much is clear, since he's done nothing at all to dam up the rivers of blood).
have some dignity, have some courage of your convictions. when we lose it won't be because of some marginal group of voters who are too disgusted with biden to vote at all (they won't be voting for trump), it will be because the weasels followed the polls, when they were supposed to lead
posted by dis_integration at 7:01 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
have some dignity, have some courage of your convictions. when we lose it won't be because of some marginal group of voters who are too disgusted with biden to vote at all (they won't be voting for trump), it will be because the weasels followed the polls, when they were supposed to lead
posted by dis_integration at 7:01 PM on March 8 [13 favorites]
I'm sorry, what?
posted by schmod at 8:45 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
posted by schmod at 8:45 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Back to Senator Britt. She said at the start and end of her "response" that she was in her kitchen. The background was CLEARLY added in. It was so clear that, watching the CBS feed, when they cut back to the anchors, you could see the same exact line around the commenters.This is a weird thing to be a truther about. I'm in no way defending her, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to disbelieve this portion of her performance. Even if she filmed this from the Senate TV Studio (which did not have a green screen, definitely does not have a kitchen set, and did not stay open late on the night of the SOTU back when I worked there), why on earth would you fake this, and why would it matter?
I guess she wasn't on The Hill for SOTU, but the photos of her house from a prior real estate listing seem authentic (and, again, why on earth would you bother faking being in a suburban kitchen? It is damn near the easiest thing in the world in 2024 to film yourself speaking in some random, actual suburban kitchen)
George W Bush went to his ranch a bunch or times "to clear brush." The conceit was bullshit, and the entire narrative was manufactured. But I have no reason to believe that he didn't have a minute to pose with a pair of pruning shears. It doesn't forgive or absolve him of anything. It's just that the actual photo op is far, far easier than a complete fraud would have been.
posted by schmod at 8:58 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Deadline: Joe Biden’s State Of The Union Address Draws 32.2 Million Viewers, Up 18% Over Last Year
posted by Rhaomi at 9:23 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 9:23 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
Let's talk about Hungary for a minute.
Let's talk about Viktor Orbán, but let's talk briefly first about Attila Mesterházy.
Attila Mesterházy ran against Orbán in 2010. (Orbán who had served as PM before, was ousted in an election he complained about and then ran again.) It's a multi-party system, so other people ran too, but Mesterházy was the one who had a chance to win.
That is not how Hungarian elections work. It’s a parliamentary system, coalition governments were common, there is not even a minimum number of seats in Hungarian parliament. (National Assembly elections in Hungary). So Mesterházy could have just formed a coalition government with whatever leftist party your leftist friends elected. The system is a bit convoluted, but as far as Orbán becoming PM, all votes left of Orbán are mostly the same.
But it didn’t matter because Fidesz got more than 50% of the vote all on it’s own. I don’t know why that is the fault of leftists.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 10:53 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Let's talk about Viktor Orbán, but let's talk briefly first about Attila Mesterházy.
Attila Mesterházy ran against Orbán in 2010. (Orbán who had served as PM before, was ousted in an election he complained about and then ran again.) It's a multi-party system, so other people ran too, but Mesterházy was the one who had a chance to win.
That is not how Hungarian elections work. It’s a parliamentary system, coalition governments were common, there is not even a minimum number of seats in Hungarian parliament. (National Assembly elections in Hungary). So Mesterházy could have just formed a coalition government with whatever leftist party your leftist friends elected. The system is a bit convoluted, but as far as Orbán becoming PM, all votes left of Orbán are mostly the same.
But it didn’t matter because Fidesz got more than 50% of the vote all on it’s own. I don’t know why that is the fault of leftists.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 10:53 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
It probably also didn't help that Mesterházy was repping the party whose previous leader was caught on a hot mic saying essentially "we're lying incompetents who've accomplished nothing, go f*ck yourself, San Diego Budapest."
posted by Rhaomi at 11:28 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 11:28 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
The Fundie Baby Voice
Yeah which I think is why that came across as so weird to so many people. The content of the speech was largely American Carnage - everything in America is terrible, crime death and destruction and it's all Biden's fault and you should be ANGRY about it. But Britt for whatever reason chose to deliver the speech as the Good Christian Momfluencer character, sweet and submissive and just so happy to be "blessed". So she's talking about all this horrible stuff in the fundie baby voice and smiling every time she paused for a breath, and the closest that character can get to "angry" is sort of almost-crying or a slight emphasis on random words. (There are multiple jokes out there along the lines of "when does the Sarah McLachlan arms of an angel song start?") The contrast between the content and the delivery was jarring.
It was a speech written for a MAGA firebrand delivered by a woman making a TikTok about how joyful she is to be baking bread with her adorable children.
And I 100% believe this is an intentional choice by Britt, to present as this character. She's a lawyer, she's spent a large chunk of her career as a political staffer, she was the CEO of a major business lobbying organization (The Business Council of Alabama, basically Alabama's Chamber of Commerce), and on her Wikipedia page you can listen to a sample of her in a Congressional hearing using a totally normal voice. Clearly she could have presented this speech in "regular person" mode, maybe even headed into "firebrand" territory, but for god knows what reason she chose this speech to code-switch to Evangelical Millenial Mom persona.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:44 AM on March 9 [13 favorites]
Yeah which I think is why that came across as so weird to so many people. The content of the speech was largely American Carnage - everything in America is terrible, crime death and destruction and it's all Biden's fault and you should be ANGRY about it. But Britt for whatever reason chose to deliver the speech as the Good Christian Momfluencer character, sweet and submissive and just so happy to be "blessed". So she's talking about all this horrible stuff in the fundie baby voice and smiling every time she paused for a breath, and the closest that character can get to "angry" is sort of almost-crying or a slight emphasis on random words. (There are multiple jokes out there along the lines of "when does the Sarah McLachlan arms of an angel song start?") The contrast between the content and the delivery was jarring.
It was a speech written for a MAGA firebrand delivered by a woman making a TikTok about how joyful she is to be baking bread with her adorable children.
And I 100% believe this is an intentional choice by Britt, to present as this character. She's a lawyer, she's spent a large chunk of her career as a political staffer, she was the CEO of a major business lobbying organization (The Business Council of Alabama, basically Alabama's Chamber of Commerce), and on her Wikipedia page you can listen to a sample of her in a Congressional hearing using a totally normal voice. Clearly she could have presented this speech in "regular person" mode, maybe even headed into "firebrand" territory, but for god knows what reason she chose this speech to code-switch to Evangelical Millenial Mom persona.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:44 AM on March 9 [13 favorites]
...but for god knows what reason she chose this speech to code-switch to Evangelical Millenial Mom persona.
Which is the person the right desperately needs to activate into a loyal voting block. Suburban women are a major battlefield for the parties, and killing-off Roe did not help the GOP, even among evangelical women. The speech was aimed at them, not men, and delivered in their voice, and it’s pretty ironic that it’s largely far-right men who are angry about her speech.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:27 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
Which is the person the right desperately needs to activate into a loyal voting block. Suburban women are a major battlefield for the parties, and killing-off Roe did not help the GOP, even among evangelical women. The speech was aimed at them, not men, and delivered in their voice, and it’s pretty ironic that it’s largely far-right men who are angry about her speech.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:27 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed at poster's request and with that deletion, a response to said comment.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:32 AM on March 9
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:32 AM on March 9
Circular Firing Squad, meet the Circular Virtue Signaling Squad.
posted by y2karl at 7:44 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 7:44 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
I apologize that I am going to comment on this at length, but when someone calls another a "truther"* that another should reply.
Even if she filmed this from the Senate TV Studio (which did not have a green screen, definitely does not have a kitchen set, and did not stay open late on the night of the SOTU back when I worked there), why on earth would you fake this, and why would it matter?
There was nothing in my comment that said that Britt was at the Senate TV Studio (didn't even know that was a thing, but it makes sense that they would.)
Green screens are a thing. All stations that show the weather use them. They are so well known that all the way in 1993(!) Andie MacDowell did a bit on it for Groundhog Day.
The pics you sent do not match the "kitchen" you mention at all. In fact, it would take some renovation work to have the faucet where it is.
Here. Compare your pics to this one that I did a random screencap of. Do those two kitchens look anything similar? Do you not see how Sen Britt looks like she is pasted on top of a background? Have you not been in a Teams meeting or Zoom meeting where people used backgrounds? This looks just like it, only better with keeping up the artifice.
I watched via CBS, I think, and as soon as they cut away it had a view of an historic building in the background, tilted with the same outline around the newscaster. That was clearly "fake".
I'm in no way defending her, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to disbelieve this portion of her performance.
Other than it was an easy hook to show every word out of her mouth was a lie? We are probably getting into a small argument in the fact that she maybe messed up her chance of being VP. But, if she didn't... performance is the right word and I believe holding her accountable to her "performance" vs. her "values".
George W Bush went to his ranch a bunch or times "to clear brush." The conceit was bullshit, and the entire narrative was manufactured. But I have no reason to believe that he didn't have a minute to pose with a pair of pruning shears.
I'm a Texan. Thank you for "educating" me on bullshit that has happened in my state. If only I had ever heard of Molly Ivins!
tl;dr: Bring receipts if you call a fellow MeFite a "truther". It's really disgusting to presume someone on the blue is a conspiracy theorist.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:45 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
Even if she filmed this from the Senate TV Studio (which did not have a green screen, definitely does not have a kitchen set, and did not stay open late on the night of the SOTU back when I worked there), why on earth would you fake this, and why would it matter?
There was nothing in my comment that said that Britt was at the Senate TV Studio (didn't even know that was a thing, but it makes sense that they would.)
Green screens are a thing. All stations that show the weather use them. They are so well known that all the way in 1993(!) Andie MacDowell did a bit on it for Groundhog Day.
The pics you sent do not match the "kitchen" you mention at all. In fact, it would take some renovation work to have the faucet where it is.
Here. Compare your pics to this one that I did a random screencap of. Do those two kitchens look anything similar? Do you not see how Sen Britt looks like she is pasted on top of a background? Have you not been in a Teams meeting or Zoom meeting where people used backgrounds? This looks just like it, only better with keeping up the artifice.
I watched via CBS, I think, and as soon as they cut away it had a view of an historic building in the background, tilted with the same outline around the newscaster. That was clearly "fake".
I'm in no way defending her, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to disbelieve this portion of her performance.
Other than it was an easy hook to show every word out of her mouth was a lie? We are probably getting into a small argument in the fact that she maybe messed up her chance of being VP. But, if she didn't... performance is the right word and I believe holding her accountable to her "performance" vs. her "values".
George W Bush went to his ranch a bunch or times "to clear brush." The conceit was bullshit, and the entire narrative was manufactured. But I have no reason to believe that he didn't have a minute to pose with a pair of pruning shears.
I'm a Texan. Thank you for "educating" me on bullshit that has happened in my state. If only I had ever heard of Molly Ivins!
tl;dr: Bring receipts if you call a fellow MeFite a "truther". It's really disgusting to presume someone on the blue is a conspiracy theorist.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:45 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
(Looks like she was sitting in front of the island at the kitchen table so microwave appears to the upper right of her FWIW)
To me the oddest thing in that response was…well, her, actually.
posted by mazola at 9:10 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
To me the oddest thing in that response was…well, her, actually.
posted by mazola at 9:10 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
Do you not see how Sen Britt looks like she is pasted on top of a background?
I think that might be the lighting? I don't know any, like, filming terms, but it's like they're trying to make her kind of glow with no shadows, but that contrasts with the dull blurry background that makes her pop out in a weird way?
posted by mittens at 9:12 AM on March 9
I think that might be the lighting? I don't know any, like, filming terms, but it's like they're trying to make her kind of glow with no shadows, but that contrasts with the dull blurry background that makes her pop out in a weird way?
posted by mittens at 9:12 AM on March 9
Which is the person the right desperately needs to activate into a loyal voting block. Suburban women are a major battlefield for the parties, and killing-off Roe did not help the GOP, even among evangelical women. The speech was aimed at them, not men, and delivered in their voice,
I got doubts - I think the fundamentalist white suburban & exurban christian women whose voice this was delivered in are mostly fine with Dobbs and are already a loyal voting block. The suburban women they're trying to reach don't, I think, really speak this language - they get glimpses and pieces of it via various not-explicitly-christian social media (Anne Helen Petersen has written about this pretty extensively, first at BuzzFeed News and now on her SubStack, and Amanda Marcotte at Salon.com has dug into it periodically) but they're not immersed in the conservative Christian culture that uses fundie baby voice. The white suburban women the Republicans pissed off with Dobbs and who they need to recover are, like, Methodists and Presbyterians who go to church once a week on Sunday and volunteer for church food drives, not the ones who commit to being explicitly subservient to their husbands in the name of God. (Admittedly, even old mainstream churches can be pretty patriarchical, so there's undoubtedly some cultural bleed - even in the 80's my staid Presbyterian mom was a regular listener to the Focus on the Family radio programs.)
But so yeah, that's what makes it weird - either Britt (or her speechwriters & handlers) thought that somehow any suburban woman would find this explicitly evangelical delivery compelling (which is . . . pretty dumb and patronizing) or they just decided to preach to the choir. Which also seems pretty dumb considering the eyeballs and attention it would get.
(Actually, I strongly suspect the Republicans mostly just panicked - given all the recent bad press and reactions to Alabama declaring IVF illegal as a more-or-less direct result of Dobbs, they went, "Oh shit we better get a woman from Alabama up in public quick to pretend everything's normal, nothing to see here folks. Look, here's a Senator! She's young, too!")
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 AM on March 9 [7 favorites]
I got doubts - I think the fundamentalist white suburban & exurban christian women whose voice this was delivered in are mostly fine with Dobbs and are already a loyal voting block. The suburban women they're trying to reach don't, I think, really speak this language - they get glimpses and pieces of it via various not-explicitly-christian social media (Anne Helen Petersen has written about this pretty extensively, first at BuzzFeed News and now on her SubStack, and Amanda Marcotte at Salon.com has dug into it periodically) but they're not immersed in the conservative Christian culture that uses fundie baby voice. The white suburban women the Republicans pissed off with Dobbs and who they need to recover are, like, Methodists and Presbyterians who go to church once a week on Sunday and volunteer for church food drives, not the ones who commit to being explicitly subservient to their husbands in the name of God. (Admittedly, even old mainstream churches can be pretty patriarchical, so there's undoubtedly some cultural bleed - even in the 80's my staid Presbyterian mom was a regular listener to the Focus on the Family radio programs.)
But so yeah, that's what makes it weird - either Britt (or her speechwriters & handlers) thought that somehow any suburban woman would find this explicitly evangelical delivery compelling (which is . . . pretty dumb and patronizing) or they just decided to preach to the choir. Which also seems pretty dumb considering the eyeballs and attention it would get.
(Actually, I strongly suspect the Republicans mostly just panicked - given all the recent bad press and reactions to Alabama declaring IVF illegal as a more-or-less direct result of Dobbs, they went, "Oh shit we better get a woman from Alabama up in public quick to pretend everything's normal, nothing to see here folks. Look, here's a Senator! She's young, too!")
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 AM on March 9 [7 favorites]
Do you not see how Sen Britt looks like she is pasted on top of a background?
The slight blur on background is bokeh and may be produced via optics using a good production system or via software if produced on an iPhone or something. The fake bokeh will produce artifacts around edges sometimes, because it's produced via software rather than optics.
posted by mazola at 9:18 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
The slight blur on background is bokeh and may be produced via optics using a good production system or via software if produced on an iPhone or something. The fake bokeh will produce artifacts around edges sometimes, because it's produced via software rather than optics.
posted by mazola at 9:18 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
Hey man I just painted and did a weak-ass Reno on my kitchen so I’ve been looking at a lot of before and after kitchen photos. Those pics are consistent. There are three issues tingling your spider-senses. first, the pics from the real estate listing are taken in natural lighting and the video has terrible lighting. Second, after they bought the house they painted the cabinets the most boring shade of grey beige they could find (WHY) AND bonus weird decision, painted the wainscoting on the reverse of the kitchen island a slightly different color (or it’s possible this vertical area is highlighted by whatever spot they have on her which makes it look different from the rest of the cabinets). Second, the way the shot is framed, the faucet on the kitchen island is JUST out of frame on the right, which makes it look like there isn’t a sink there at all. Third, in ALL of the RE and the family photo as well, the sink in the corner that’s visible behind her in the video is blocked. the angle omits that corner next to the fridge in the staged photos and the family is standing in front of it in the family photo. Fourth, they’ve replaced the cabinet doors along the L of the wall behind her with windowed cabinet doors with built in lighting to look classy. Hard to tell if this was done before or after the family photo because that entire corner is blocked by her family but why would anyone replace half the cabinet doors? I don’t know but 8 know know why anyone would choose this color either. Fifth (sorry) this kitchen follows the new-ish trend of covering every possible flat vertical surface of an appliance with a cupboard door to make it look like it’s a house that doesn’t actually have people living it. That makes the cabinets hard to parse and the flow of the kitchen looks weird. If you compare the family photo to the Re photo that includes the fridge, you can spot the only uncovered narrow vertical panel on the front of the fridge barely visible to the left of her son’s neck. Every single cabinet and fixture layout feature that’s available to compare is the same. There’s no difference between those photos that I couldn’t have done to my kitchen in the past six weeks. They haven’t even changed the countertops, the color and edging match, as does the square rough tile backsplash, which is one of the things that makes me think this may be the worlds worst lighting job and not a repainting.
posted by bq at 9:19 AM on March 9 [10 favorites]
posted by bq at 9:19 AM on March 9 [10 favorites]
I think Britt was selected, and staged, as VP Harris's opposite number.
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:27 AM on March 9
posted by Iris Gambol at 9:27 AM on March 9
VP Harris's opposite number
That fits, as Harris is also known for concerning cabinet decisions.
posted by mittens at 9:39 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
That fits, as Harris is also known for concerning cabinet decisions.
posted by mittens at 9:39 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
I think Britt was selected, and staged, as VP Harris's opposite number.
It's part of a pattern from the GOP for a while now to use the state of the union responses to highlight their supposed diversity. From the NY Times article about it:
Her selection made for a stark contrast with Mr. Biden, 81, the nation’s oldest president, who is facing skepticism within his party about whether he is too old for a second term.
She also symbolized the latest Republican attempt to broaden the appeal of a party represented overwhelmingly in Washington by white men.
Last year, the Republican response was given by Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders of Arkansas, a former Trump White House press secretary, who became the nation’s youngest governor when she took office early last year. The previous Republican responses to Mr. Biden’s speech came from Gov. Kim Reynolds, Iowa’s first female governor, and Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, the only Black Republican in the chamber.
They're basically trotting out anyone they have who isn't an old white dude, but that's not a deep bench.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:40 AM on March 9 [6 favorites]
It's part of a pattern from the GOP for a while now to use the state of the union responses to highlight their supposed diversity. From the NY Times article about it:
Her selection made for a stark contrast with Mr. Biden, 81, the nation’s oldest president, who is facing skepticism within his party about whether he is too old for a second term.
She also symbolized the latest Republican attempt to broaden the appeal of a party represented overwhelmingly in Washington by white men.
Last year, the Republican response was given by Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders of Arkansas, a former Trump White House press secretary, who became the nation’s youngest governor when she took office early last year. The previous Republican responses to Mr. Biden’s speech came from Gov. Kim Reynolds, Iowa’s first female governor, and Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina, the only Black Republican in the chamber.
They're basically trotting out anyone they have who isn't an old white dude, but that's not a deep bench.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:40 AM on March 9 [6 favorites]
Journalist catches Sen. Katie Britt in an 'out and out lie' in her State of Union response: A reporter accused Sen. Katie Britt (R-AL) of making false statements when she discussed the horrors of a girl sex-trafficked by Mexican cartel members. [RawStory]
posted by mazola at 9:51 AM on March 9 [9 favorites]
posted by mazola at 9:51 AM on March 9 [9 favorites]
Raw Story, reporting on a TikTok, and a Talking Points Memo shout-out on X -- I thought it would be days before mainstream media caught up and by then we'd be on to another fresh hell, but lo: WaPo's Fact-Checker, "Katie Britt’s false linkage of a sex-trafficking case to Joe Biden," appeared an hour ago, archived link, & credits the "viral TikTok by journalist Jonathan Katz". WaPo also links to a May 2023 press release on Britt's senate.gov page, "It is Open Season for Human Traffickers, Drug Cartels, and Terrorists," which excerpts her congressional testimony.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:54 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:54 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
Speaking of Viktor Orban, Trump met with him at Mar-a-Lago yesterday. On Thursday, Orban was in DC and delivered remarks at the Heritage Foundation; on April 11, 2018, the Foundation published "Why the U.S. Must Befriend Hungary’s Populist Leader."
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:49 PM on March 9 [6 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:49 PM on March 9 [6 favorites]
Raw Story, reporting on a TikTok, and a Talking Points Memo shout-out on X -- I thought it would be days before mainstream media caught up and by then we'd be on to another fresh hell, but lo: WaPo's Fact-Checker, "Katie Britt’s false linkage of a sex-trafficking case to Joe Biden," appeared an hour ago, archived link, & credits the "viral TikTok by journalist Jonathan Katz". WaPo also links to a May 2023 press release on Britt's senate.gov page, "It is Open Season for Human Traffickers, Drug Cartels, and Terrorists," which excerpts her congressional testimony.
It's on the front page of the NY Times as well: Britt Faces Accusations of Misleading on Border in State of the Union Response, and credits the same source. At least for the moment, it looks like Britt's team is doubling down:
A spokesman for Ms. Britt, Sean Ross, stood behind her speech.
“The story Senator Britt told was 100 percent correct,” he said in a statement.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:11 PM on March 9 [2 favorites]
It's on the front page of the NY Times as well: Britt Faces Accusations of Misleading on Border in State of the Union Response, and credits the same source. At least for the moment, it looks like Britt's team is doubling down:
A spokesman for Ms. Britt, Sean Ross, stood behind her speech.
“The story Senator Britt told was 100 percent correct,” he said in a statement.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:11 PM on March 9 [2 favorites]
Whether Britt was actually in her kitchen or greenscreened in could not matter less to me. It's such a tiny lie in the midst of such damaging and mendacious ones, I struggle to understand what conclusions could be acted on from an answer. It's more a red herring.
posted by rhizome at 1:38 PM on March 9 [5 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 1:38 PM on March 9 [5 favorites]
Speaking of Viktor Orban, Trump met with him at Mar-a-Lago yesterday. On Thursday, Orban was in DC and delivered remarks at the Heritage Foundation; on April 11, 2018, the Foundation published "Why the U.S. Must Befriend Hungary’s Populist Leader."
If RAPIST Donald Trump has emptied his wallet getting the 100 Million bond to stay the execution of the E. Jean Carroll II judgement, then RAPIST Donald Trump needs an irrevocable letter of credit to get a bondsman to put up the $500 Million Bond that's due in a few weeks to stay Leticia James' execution of The People's judgement against him.
Now RAPIST Donald Trump -- if they win the election -- would be in a very, very good position to do whatever his creditors tell him to do, and this would be a very good position for any foreign leader to be in. I'm sure the Saudis have taken note of this.
I think being in debt to a foreign power is a huge security risk. But these days, voting for a rapist isn't a show-stopper for Republicans, so why wouldn't they vote for a foreign puppet?
posted by mikelieman at 2:15 PM on March 9 [7 favorites]
If RAPIST Donald Trump has emptied his wallet getting the 100 Million bond to stay the execution of the E. Jean Carroll II judgement, then RAPIST Donald Trump needs an irrevocable letter of credit to get a bondsman to put up the $500 Million Bond that's due in a few weeks to stay Leticia James' execution of The People's judgement against him.
Now RAPIST Donald Trump -- if they win the election -- would be in a very, very good position to do whatever his creditors tell him to do, and this would be a very good position for any foreign leader to be in. I'm sure the Saudis have taken note of this.
I think being in debt to a foreign power is a huge security risk. But these days, voting for a rapist isn't a show-stopper for Republicans, so why wouldn't they vote for a foreign puppet?
posted by mikelieman at 2:15 PM on March 9 [7 favorites]
I take this as strong evidence she was actually in her kitchen.
posted by mazola at 2:52 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
posted by mazola at 2:52 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
It's on the front page of the NY Times as well: Britt Faces Accusations of Misleading on Border in State of the Union Response
Looks like the NYT is back to being unable to call lying right-wing liars when caught lying.
Worse still was the inability of the mainstream press to report on Trump's Waco speech, in which he led the crowd to recite the anthem with the help of Jan 6 traitors. Even worse, why Waco and why on that day? Branch Dividians.
The press is simply not taking these Fascists seriously.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:58 PM on March 9 [11 favorites]
Looks like the NYT is back to being unable to call lying right-wing liars when caught lying.
Worse still was the inability of the mainstream press to report on Trump's Waco speech, in which he led the crowd to recite the anthem with the help of Jan 6 traitors. Even worse, why Waco and why on that day? Branch Dividians.
The press is simply not taking these Fascists seriously.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:58 PM on March 9 [11 favorites]
Looks like the NYT is back to being unable to call lying right-wing liars when caught lying.
I agree. On the front page, the link for that story is more direct: "It was misleading." (Still short of calling it a lie, but at least it is stating a fact, since it was clearly misleading.) But then if you click on the link, the article itself has the weasely "faces accusations" headline. Good old NYT, never disappoints on this issue.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
I agree. On the front page, the link for that story is more direct: "It was misleading." (Still short of calling it a lie, but at least it is stating a fact, since it was clearly misleading.) But then if you click on the link, the article itself has the weasely "faces accusations" headline. Good old NYT, never disappoints on this issue.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:09 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
I'm a Texan. Thank you for "educating" me on bullshit that has happened in my state. If only I had ever heard of Molly Ivins!I’m sorry if that’s how you read my comment. It was not my intention. Please stop this weird aggressive thing that you’re doing.
tl;dr: Bring receipts if you call a fellow MeFite a "truther". It's really disgusting to presume someone on the blue is a conspiracy theorist.
posted by schmod at 5:44 PM on March 9 [4 favorites]
I’m sorry if that’s how you read my comment. It was not my intention. Please stop this weird aggressive thing that you’re doing.
I apologize. I became very heated by being called a truther. After reading other's comments, it does appear that she actually was in her kitchen, so I was wrong and my whole argument was wrong.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:12 AM on March 10 [5 favorites]
I apologize. I became very heated by being called a truther. After reading other's comments, it does appear that she actually was in her kitchen, so I was wrong and my whole argument was wrong.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:12 AM on March 10 [5 favorites]
Funny hot mic mentioned in one of the Pod Save America links above:
Biden saying to Nadler, 'I kind of wish sometimes I was in cognitive decline.'
posted by MtDewd at 7:20 AM on March 10 [9 favorites]
Biden saying to Nadler, 'I kind of wish sometimes I was in cognitive decline.'
posted by MtDewd at 7:20 AM on March 10 [9 favorites]
...aaaaaand the Republican reply was an SNL sketch (Twitter/X).
(not as weird as the real thing IMO but how do you parody any of this?)
posted by mazola at 7:40 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
(not as weird as the real thing IMO but how do you parody any of this?)
posted by mazola at 7:40 AM on March 10 [1 favorite]
From the Oscars (via Crooks and Liars):
JIMMY KIMMEL: This show is not about me, and I appreciate you having me. It's really about you, and Emma, and all these great actors and actresses and filmmakers, but I was told we had like an extra minute, and I'm really proud of something, and I was wondering if I could share it with you. I just got a review and ummm...
“Has there ever been a worse host than Jimmy Kimmel at The Oscars. His opening was that of a less than average person trying too hard to be something which he is not, and never can be. Get rid of Kimmel and perhaps replace him with another washed up, but cheap, ABC ‘talent,’ George Slopanopoulos. He would make everybody on stage look bigger, stronger, and more glamorous. Blah. Blah. Blah. Make America Great Again.”
See if you can guess which former president just posted that on Truth Social. Anyone? No? Well thank you President Trump. Thank you for watching. I’m surprised you’re still up. Isn’t it past your jail time?
So perfect a burn: if only Kimmel let us know up front that that "review" from Trump was 100% real.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:31 AM on March 11 [9 favorites]
JIMMY KIMMEL: This show is not about me, and I appreciate you having me. It's really about you, and Emma, and all these great actors and actresses and filmmakers, but I was told we had like an extra minute, and I'm really proud of something, and I was wondering if I could share it with you. I just got a review and ummm...
“Has there ever been a worse host than Jimmy Kimmel at The Oscars. His opening was that of a less than average person trying too hard to be something which he is not, and never can be. Get rid of Kimmel and perhaps replace him with another washed up, but cheap, ABC ‘talent,’ George Slopanopoulos. He would make everybody on stage look bigger, stronger, and more glamorous. Blah. Blah. Blah. Make America Great Again.”
See if you can guess which former president just posted that on Truth Social. Anyone? No? Well thank you President Trump. Thank you for watching. I’m surprised you’re still up. Isn’t it past your jail time?
So perfect a burn: if only Kimmel let us know up front that that "review" from Trump was 100% real.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:31 AM on March 11 [9 favorites]
Karla Jacinto, whose experiences Britt referenced in her State of the Union response, was reached for comment: Jacinto told CNN that Mexican politicians took advantage of her by using her story for political purposes and that it’s happened again in the United States.
“I work as a spokesperson for many victims who have no voice, and I really would like them to be empathetic: all the governors, all the senators, to be empathetic with the issue of human trafficking because there are millions of girls and boys who disappear all the time. People who are really trafficked and abused, as she [Britt] mentioned. And I think she [Britt] should first take into account what really happens before telling a story of that magnitude,” Jacinto said.posted by Iris Gambol at 10:45 AM on March 11 [8 favorites]
Jacinto said she met the senator at an event at the southern border with other government officials and anti-human-trafficking activists, instead of one-on-one as Britt stated. She also said that she was never trafficked in the United States, as Britt appeared to suggest. She was not trafficked by Mexican drug cartels, but by a pimp who operated as part of a family that entrapped vulnerable girls to force them into prostitution, she said.
Jacinto said she was kept in captivity from 2004 to 2008, when President George W. Bush was in office and when Biden was a senator.
Senator Britt's official position on immigration is that a woman, like Jacinto, who was trafficked in Mexico and is seeking asylum in the US, should be denied refuge in the United States.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:57 PM on March 13 [9 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:57 PM on March 13 [9 favorites]
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posted by Rhaomi at 5:20 PM on March 7 [1 favorite]