Conservatives, on average, trust everything less
March 13, 2024 1:50 AM Subscribe
What changed since 2008 is a vivid example of a larger upheaval in American politics. The Food and Drug Administration and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention still say raw milk is dangerous and the state dairy lobby sent lobbyists to the Iowa Capitol to defeat Schultz’s bill. But Iowa has flipped — it’s a Republican state now, from the presidential vote to the governor’s office to the near-supermajority Legislature — and that flip has occurred alongside even larger shifts in national politics, spurred on by the rise of Donald Trump. With Trump has come a new GOP electorate, one more rural, more working class, less ideological and generally more distrustful of lobbyists, big business and “the experts.” And that has been a big help for a cause that is bucking just about every one of those groups. from How Raw Milk Went from a Whole Foods Staple to a Conservative Signal [Politico]
Yeah, I'm seeing this as a stopped clock being right a couple times a day. And I'm also glad that THIS is the thing the stopped clock is right about.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:51 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:51 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Because the article never spells it out, and because it's important context to understand the issue, the big concern with raw milk is listeriosis, and the big concern with that is especially in pregnant people and infants, the elderly, and people with weakened immune systems, groups that people may think will be "healthier" from drinking unpasteurized milk rather than at very high risk of getting sick.
I also am not a huge fan of the focus of the article only on death rates from different illnesses. Surely if there's one thing we've all learned over the past 4 years is that there's more to public health concerns than just dying. In the case of listeriosis, the death rate is higher for infants, the immunocompromised, and old people (groups the US doesn't care about the deaths of). In pregnant people, the risk is miscarriage, pre-term labor, and still birth (which, oh wait, the US has also decided not to care about).
posted by hydropsyche at 4:25 AM on March 13 [65 favorites]
I also am not a huge fan of the focus of the article only on death rates from different illnesses. Surely if there's one thing we've all learned over the past 4 years is that there's more to public health concerns than just dying. In the case of listeriosis, the death rate is higher for infants, the immunocompromised, and old people (groups the US doesn't care about the deaths of). In pregnant people, the risk is miscarriage, pre-term labor, and still birth (which, oh wait, the US has also decided not to care about).
posted by hydropsyche at 4:25 AM on March 13 [65 favorites]
The new conservative ideology is purely oppositional, enraged by the idea that someone might suggest, hey, don’t do this if don’t want to die. If you want a picture of the future, imagine an angry teenager shouting “YOU CANT TELL ME WHAT TO DO, YOURE NOT MY REAL DAD” forever.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:38 AM on March 13 [67 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 4:38 AM on March 13 [67 favorites]
I can't believe people are drinking raw milk to own the libs/conservatives... imagine ending up like the man in the Flannery O'Connor story and it's not even because you're defying God but because you're defying X the app formerly known as Twitter. Embarrassing!
posted by kingdead at 4:40 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 4:40 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]
Conservatives (or their more correct name, reactionaries) should hope that not sticking a fork in the electrical outlet doesn't become a politically polarizing issue. I can just see some plant on TikTok with a fake electrical outlet "proving" that "it doesn't kill you, I take a zap a day to stay healthy" and then a wave of electrocution deaths.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:56 AM on March 13 [19 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:56 AM on March 13 [19 favorites]
I've been slightly encouraged to find some on the left to re-examine a few of the flakier positions as conservatism has veered close in some key areas. Even if the motivation is still oppositional rather than rational. It's a little like hearing a recording of your own voice, and realizing, "Do I really sound like that?" The big worry is the number deciding, "Hey, we are having more in common than not".
Conservatives (or their more correct name, reactionaries) should hope that not sticking a fork in the electrical outlet doesn't become a politically polarizing issue. I can just see some plant on TikTok with a fake electrical outlet "proving" that "it doesn't kill you, I take a zap a day to stay healthy" and then a wave of electrocution deaths.
After Covid, I think we know how this would turn out.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:01 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Conservatives (or their more correct name, reactionaries) should hope that not sticking a fork in the electrical outlet doesn't become a politically polarizing issue. I can just see some plant on TikTok with a fake electrical outlet "proving" that "it doesn't kill you, I take a zap a day to stay healthy" and then a wave of electrocution deaths.
After Covid, I think we know how this would turn out.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:01 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
It's so funny to me that reactionary conservatives have given up on (or at least claimed to have given up on) football and Bud Light, and instead what they've adopted in exchange is hippies and raw milk. What a hilarious bargain.
posted by saladin at 5:12 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
posted by saladin at 5:12 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]
I can just see some plant on TikTok with a fake electrical outlet "proving" that "it doesn't kill you, I take a zap a day to stay healthy" and then a wave of electrocution deaths.
Ahhhh…So banning TikTok is a proactive safety move. Clever!
posted by Thorzdad at 5:16 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Ahhhh…So banning TikTok is a proactive safety move. Clever!
posted by Thorzdad at 5:16 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Not really surprised. Smoking was a big hit with the You're Not My Real Dad crowd for a while; that united reactionaries with diehard hipsters (and, if you've known anyone with lung cancer or COPD, you know that the dying could be very hard, indeed).
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:22 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:22 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
“Cycle after cycle, we find new officeholders are just becoming more freedom-oriented and less trusting of government at all levels.”
Yes, because it is sane and logical to explicitly seek to be employed by the very organization you do not personally trust
posted by caution live frogs at 5:31 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
Yes, because it is sane and logical to explicitly seek to be employed by the very organization you do not personally trust
posted by caution live frogs at 5:31 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
The better to drown it.
posted by MtDewd at 5:42 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by MtDewd at 5:42 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
"be the institutional incompetence you want to see in the world"
posted by glonous keming at 5:44 AM on March 13 [24 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 5:44 AM on March 13 [24 favorites]
I don't think it would be the end of the world for informed people to drink raw milk from local dairies - there are even benefits. But I also think that the second that it becomes legal, big corporations will push raw milk as the next big thing. Maybe they'll spin off tiny subsidiaries to count as "small local dairies", or maybe they'll sue and say it's illegal to discriminate based on business size, or just appeal to 'common sense' that legal means legal. All to save, what, 5 cents a gallon? And mark it up as premium? That's big profit, and all it costs is a few people getting sick or dying (which is less than 5 cents a gallon).
posted by Garm at 5:45 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
posted by Garm at 5:45 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
Dairies are dying out, the benefit to local business would seem to outweigh the public health risk for what is a very niche market
As with a lot of things involving "local" farms, how much of this is about letting roadside stands sell bespoke bottles of milk and how much is this about lowering standards across the dairy industry so that big players have an opportunity to sell raw, unprocessed milk nationally? Because as the article points out, there is demand for it.
Just the other day we were reading about a dude who tried to disrupt marshmallows by offering a product wrapped in all the same half-truth promises of being better, more natural, and less industrialized. Do you honestly think there aren't at least a dozen more people out there who are chomping at the bit to disrupt milk?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on March 13 [17 favorites]
As with a lot of things involving "local" farms, how much of this is about letting roadside stands sell bespoke bottles of milk and how much is this about lowering standards across the dairy industry so that big players have an opportunity to sell raw, unprocessed milk nationally? Because as the article points out, there is demand for it.
Just the other day we were reading about a dude who tried to disrupt marshmallows by offering a product wrapped in all the same half-truth promises of being better, more natural, and less industrialized. Do you honestly think there aren't at least a dozen more people out there who are chomping at the bit to disrupt milk?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:51 AM on March 13 [17 favorites]
In a different timeline, I could support the sale of raw milk. In this hypothetical timeline, everyone knows that unpasteurized milk is dangerous, much like bargain grocery store ground beef. No reasonable person would consume raw milk.
That ship has sailed for us. We have to protect kids from the egotistically stupid.
That said.... I did let my 6 year old eat raw oysters at Christmas. Because what the heck, a 6 year old likes oysters?? MIL took him around and showed everyone his little party trick. I was ignorant of vibriosis at the time and trusted that the person who'd brought the oysters had gotten Really Good Ones. So maybe I shouldn't be commenting on the hue of the kettle.
Would I let my kid eat oysters in the future? The occasion hadn't come up to consider that, but this piece is making me think. Do I really understand the risk? I can read the statistics and percentages, but it's hard to grok what they mean.
If I put a preferential weight on anecdotes, oysters from a reputable company harvested in "good areas" during cold months has never gotten anyone I know sick. I'd have to trust my oyster-eating in-laws for all this information...but they've always been fine. And when I'm with them, in their community as it were, the risk feels small and a bit silly to worry about. Even insulting to the person who brought the oysters, because of course they wouldn't get bad ones.
If I believed there were real health benefits to raw oysters, the risk/benefit equation would get even fuzzier. The weight of emotional and community influence on evaluating risk seems like it would naturally be pretty heavy, that's a human thing isn't it? Throw in a mistrust of experts (I mean, look what they said about marijuana) and I see how drinking raw milk can be not just a "stupid person" thing but also a "misguided/ignorant person thing".
Compassionate education seems like the best approach, but how do you separate the well-meaning from the merely defiant? How do you reach them?
posted by Baethan at 6:00 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
That ship has sailed for us. We have to protect kids from the egotistically stupid.
That said.... I did let my 6 year old eat raw oysters at Christmas. Because what the heck, a 6 year old likes oysters?? MIL took him around and showed everyone his little party trick. I was ignorant of vibriosis at the time and trusted that the person who'd brought the oysters had gotten Really Good Ones. So maybe I shouldn't be commenting on the hue of the kettle.
Would I let my kid eat oysters in the future? The occasion hadn't come up to consider that, but this piece is making me think. Do I really understand the risk? I can read the statistics and percentages, but it's hard to grok what they mean.
If I put a preferential weight on anecdotes, oysters from a reputable company harvested in "good areas" during cold months has never gotten anyone I know sick. I'd have to trust my oyster-eating in-laws for all this information...but they've always been fine. And when I'm with them, in their community as it were, the risk feels small and a bit silly to worry about. Even insulting to the person who brought the oysters, because of course they wouldn't get bad ones.
If I believed there were real health benefits to raw oysters, the risk/benefit equation would get even fuzzier. The weight of emotional and community influence on evaluating risk seems like it would naturally be pretty heavy, that's a human thing isn't it? Throw in a mistrust of experts (I mean, look what they said about marijuana) and I see how drinking raw milk can be not just a "stupid person" thing but also a "misguided/ignorant person thing".
Compassionate education seems like the best approach, but how do you separate the well-meaning from the merely defiant? How do you reach them?
posted by Baethan at 6:00 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
Your Childhood Pet Rock: I can just see some plant on TikTok with a fake electrical outlet "proving" that "it doesn't kill you, I take a zap a day to stay healthy" and then a wave of electrocution deaths.
As a teen, I was big into ham radio and subscribed to 73 Magazine. The publisher, Wayne Green, was an old-school New Hampshire small-l libertarian who was always into conspiracy theories, unschooling, alternate energy, orgone, anything that fit that iconoclastic mold. One thing he espoused was the work of Bob Beck, who had discovered the field of bio-electrification, the act of putting a low voltage current through an extremity that would supposedly clean the blood and wilder claims of regrown hair/teeth. The device was marketed as a “plant growth stimulator” to avoid the FDA scrutiny. If I recall, he even published the schematic in one of the issues.
If everything old is becoming new again, I would fully expect to see this making the rounds for a new generation.
posted by dr_dank at 6:18 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
As a teen, I was big into ham radio and subscribed to 73 Magazine. The publisher, Wayne Green, was an old-school New Hampshire small-l libertarian who was always into conspiracy theories, unschooling, alternate energy, orgone, anything that fit that iconoclastic mold. One thing he espoused was the work of Bob Beck, who had discovered the field of bio-electrification, the act of putting a low voltage current through an extremity that would supposedly clean the blood and wilder claims of regrown hair/teeth. The device was marketed as a “plant growth stimulator” to avoid the FDA scrutiny. If I recall, he even published the schematic in one of the issues.
If everything old is becoming new again, I would fully expect to see this making the rounds for a new generation.
posted by dr_dank at 6:18 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
when whole foods sold raw milk i would buy it specifically for making yogurt, although part of the process there is cooking milk to 140F which is basically pasteurization. i did think that yogurt was better than any made from most other milks but that’s probably because the raw milk still has all the cream in it.
in general i wouldn’t be against the sale of raw milk except that the oppositional defiance disorder of conservatives means that because you warn them of the dangers of it it makes them more likely to do the dangerous thing, like feeding raw milk to their children. paternalism becomes justified if your citizens act like stupid babies .
posted by dis_integration at 6:20 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
in general i wouldn’t be against the sale of raw milk except that the oppositional defiance disorder of conservatives means that because you warn them of the dangers of it it makes them more likely to do the dangerous thing, like feeding raw milk to their children. paternalism becomes justified if your citizens act like stupid babies .
posted by dis_integration at 6:20 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Dairies are dying out, the benefit to local business would seem to outweigh the public health risk for what is a very niche market
A few sick or dead children is a small price to pay to support local businesses!
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:33 AM on March 13 [15 favorites]
A few sick or dead children is a small price to pay to support local businesses!
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:33 AM on March 13 [15 favorites]
A few sick or dead children is a small price to pay to support local businesses!
This is, unironically, how American car culture and the local businesses that depend on it work.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:38 AM on March 13 [30 favorites]
This is, unironically, how American car culture and the local businesses that depend on it work.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:38 AM on March 13 [30 favorites]
Next: "You can't tell me not to feed honey to my infant! If God wants my baby to catch the botulism and die, it's on me to provide God what to smite with."
The reason for relaxing the pasteurization mandate is cheese, not milk. We're deprived of all kinds of cheeeeeese. We can't import the same cheese jillions of Europeans eat by the tonne every day because apparently we can't be trusted not to eat it while pregnant or feed it to end-stage liver disease patients or whatever. Oysters, sushi, tequila, a wide array of tobacco products, all legal to buy, but not cheese unless it's been boiled to death. If I'm remembering right even aged cheese was on the chopping block for a minute, which is ridiculous; there's no risk of listeria from parmesan.
Raw milk is whatever unless you get it straight from the cow. I had that once in my life and the scales fell and I understood the hoopla about milk, but days-old fridge milk, whether it's pasteurized or raw does not have the ambrosial quality of really fresh. I want local dairies to be able to make all the varieties of cheese. Either that or to be free to get it shipped to me from wherever.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:43 AM on March 13 [19 favorites]
The reason for relaxing the pasteurization mandate is cheese, not milk. We're deprived of all kinds of cheeeeeese. We can't import the same cheese jillions of Europeans eat by the tonne every day because apparently we can't be trusted not to eat it while pregnant or feed it to end-stage liver disease patients or whatever. Oysters, sushi, tequila, a wide array of tobacco products, all legal to buy, but not cheese unless it's been boiled to death. If I'm remembering right even aged cheese was on the chopping block for a minute, which is ridiculous; there's no risk of listeria from parmesan.
Raw milk is whatever unless you get it straight from the cow. I had that once in my life and the scales fell and I understood the hoopla about milk, but days-old fridge milk, whether it's pasteurized or raw does not have the ambrosial quality of really fresh. I want local dairies to be able to make all the varieties of cheese. Either that or to be free to get it shipped to me from wherever.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:43 AM on March 13 [19 favorites]
I eat like a deranged raccoon - I have no fewer than three different recycled containers full of fermenting trash sitting on my counter right now.
I also eat a lot of animal products that sane humans wouldn't allow in their kitchens - a lot of raw and fermented meat, organ tissues, etc. I'm looking at a hanging sock full of fermenting goat ribs as I type this.
I will taste everything before I die.
I have yet to have someone explain the benefit of drinking raw milk. I use a lot of bacteria and yeast to process food and I've never encountered a recipe or tradition that explicitly benefited from raw milk. Maybe some kind of yak cheese? Any other cheese doesn't require raw milk unless you're trying to cosplay as a bronze-age cave dweller.
I can't figure out why they hate pasteurization. The only two benefits that make any sense whatsoever is the nebulous "it tastes better" - which, ok? I don't believe you - and I don't think you could reliably pass a taste test.
The other is the matter of allergens, the notion that raw milk confers resistance to local diseases... and that shit flies right out the window when the risk is dead kids.
My meemaw taught me how to put up food, grew up on a farm during the depression, ate dirt and weeds, blah blah blah, and she laughed out loud at the idea of raw milk. I think her exact words were, "knock yourself out."
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:17 AM on March 13 [24 favorites]
I also eat a lot of animal products that sane humans wouldn't allow in their kitchens - a lot of raw and fermented meat, organ tissues, etc. I'm looking at a hanging sock full of fermenting goat ribs as I type this.
I will taste everything before I die.
I have yet to have someone explain the benefit of drinking raw milk. I use a lot of bacteria and yeast to process food and I've never encountered a recipe or tradition that explicitly benefited from raw milk. Maybe some kind of yak cheese? Any other cheese doesn't require raw milk unless you're trying to cosplay as a bronze-age cave dweller.
I can't figure out why they hate pasteurization. The only two benefits that make any sense whatsoever is the nebulous "it tastes better" - which, ok? I don't believe you - and I don't think you could reliably pass a taste test.
The other is the matter of allergens, the notion that raw milk confers resistance to local diseases... and that shit flies right out the window when the risk is dead kids.
My meemaw taught me how to put up food, grew up on a farm during the depression, ate dirt and weeds, blah blah blah, and she laughed out loud at the idea of raw milk. I think her exact words were, "knock yourself out."
posted by Baby_Balrog at 7:17 AM on March 13 [24 favorites]
Tired: anti-government contrarians
Wired: dairy perverts
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:24 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
Wired: dairy perverts
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:24 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
I've had raw milk on a couple of occasions, on small farms. I would say that the biggest gap in taste is between regular pasteurised milk that has a week or two of shelf life and has to be refrigerated and the super-pasteurised stuff that keeps for a year in room temperature, not between raw and regular pasteurised.
posted by Harald74 at 7:29 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Harald74 at 7:29 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Surprised to see no mention of the travails of Amish organic farmer Amos Miller.
posted by BWA at 7:33 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by BWA at 7:33 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: turn a FA about political manifestations of adult Oppositional Defiance Disorder into a thread of rants about whether you should let kids eat oysters, and whether there is such a thing as a trustworthy seller of raw milk, and whether any sane person has a use for raw milk anyway(1).
@Horace Rumpole et seq. what you are observing is Cleek's Law in action.
(1) Yes, if they want to make Devon-style clotted cream, they do have that use.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:39 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
@Horace Rumpole et seq. what you are observing is Cleek's Law in action.
(1) Yes, if they want to make Devon-style clotted cream, they do have that use.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:39 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Between this and the anti-vax stuff I'm beginning to think that they all just have some weird grudge against Louis Pasteur.
And like not to appeal to authority, but, if it's good enough for that dude, it's got enough for me.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:43 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
And like not to appeal to authority, but, if it's good enough for that dude, it's got enough for me.
posted by Gygesringtone at 7:43 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
what if they made a raw milk PSA with the "you can't eat at everybody's house" guy (tiktok link)
Aardvark Cheeselog oh crap sorry, am I doing conversation wrong? Genuine question, I do tend to wander
posted by Baethan at 7:45 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Aardvark Cheeselog oh crap sorry, am I doing conversation wrong? Genuine question, I do tend to wander
posted by Baethan at 7:45 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
cooking milk to 140F which is basically pasteurization
Only *and this is an important ONLY* if you keep it at 140F for quite some time. Looks like the FDA minimum recommended temp for this is 145F, and you have to maintain that for 30 minutes.
You're basically sous-viding it, and from what I can see on my handy table (Myrvhold's Modernist Cuisine, p. 173), 140F is going to require 50 minutes. I'm also not sure I'd even trust that...
[My grandmother almost died from ungulate fever (Brucellosis) from raw milk when she was a girl. Oh, did she ever have fun stories about that experience.]
posted by yellowcandy at 7:54 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
Only *and this is an important ONLY* if you keep it at 140F for quite some time. Looks like the FDA minimum recommended temp for this is 145F, and you have to maintain that for 30 minutes.
You're basically sous-viding it, and from what I can see on my handy table (Myrvhold's Modernist Cuisine, p. 173), 140F is going to require 50 minutes. I'm also not sure I'd even trust that...
[My grandmother almost died from ungulate fever (Brucellosis) from raw milk when she was a girl. Oh, did she ever have fun stories about that experience.]
posted by yellowcandy at 7:54 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]
This is not new conservative behavior, though it's possible it's newly mainstreamed. I worked for a food co-op in a reddish midwestern state from the mid-1990s through 2005, and there was a thriving network of raw milk sellers and consumers, many of whom were very conservative. We tolerated their meeting in our not-visible-from-the-street parking lot to conduct transactions.
I bought unpasteurized goat's milk to make cheese with a few times and at the time felt like it was kind of a weird thing to (I assumed; I never actually confirmed the existence of a law concerning goat's milk) make illegal. But even then, I wouldn't feed the milk or cheese to anyone else. The cheese was very good.
The rub was that most of the conservative customers were also religious, with big vans full of children, all the women in ankle-length denim skirts, etc., so there were a lot of kids involved, and they were absolutely just giving raw cow's milk to their children as a beverage and even a formula substitute because they didn't trust big dairies. At the time there was a lot of confusion and anxiety about bovine growth hormone and mad cow disease, but folks somehow couldn't manage to cut dairy out of their diet, and instead looked for what they believed would be a safer alternative. As far as I know nobody involved was ever harmed, which is more than I can say for people being "treated" by chiropractors, a population that overlapped the raw milk purchasers fairly substantially. But I suspect this was only due to luck and possibly the care taken by the farmers to not sell tainted milk.
Ultimately these hijinks (and the general high tolerance for any sort of grifty nonsense, as long as it wasn't endorsed or validated by mainstream medicine) were what pushed me out of the natural foods world and into the sciences. I still regularly shop at another co-op--I moved away from the reddish state and the co-op where I worked more than a decade ago--but I hold the community at arm's length.
posted by pullayup at 8:12 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
I bought unpasteurized goat's milk to make cheese with a few times and at the time felt like it was kind of a weird thing to (I assumed; I never actually confirmed the existence of a law concerning goat's milk) make illegal. But even then, I wouldn't feed the milk or cheese to anyone else. The cheese was very good.
The rub was that most of the conservative customers were also religious, with big vans full of children, all the women in ankle-length denim skirts, etc., so there were a lot of kids involved, and they were absolutely just giving raw cow's milk to their children as a beverage and even a formula substitute because they didn't trust big dairies. At the time there was a lot of confusion and anxiety about bovine growth hormone and mad cow disease, but folks somehow couldn't manage to cut dairy out of their diet, and instead looked for what they believed would be a safer alternative. As far as I know nobody involved was ever harmed, which is more than I can say for people being "treated" by chiropractors, a population that overlapped the raw milk purchasers fairly substantially. But I suspect this was only due to luck and possibly the care taken by the farmers to not sell tainted milk.
Ultimately these hijinks (and the general high tolerance for any sort of grifty nonsense, as long as it wasn't endorsed or validated by mainstream medicine) were what pushed me out of the natural foods world and into the sciences. I still regularly shop at another co-op--I moved away from the reddish state and the co-op where I worked more than a decade ago--but I hold the community at arm's length.
posted by pullayup at 8:12 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
"I've never encountered a recipe or tradition that explicitly benefited from raw milk. Maybe some kind of yak cheese? Any other cheese doesn't require raw milk unless you're trying to cosplay as a bronze-age cave dweller."
You sound like a pretty adventurous eater and food adventurer, but this cheese thing is a weird, and weirdly USian, gap in knowledge.
Unless you’ve traveled in France (or Canada, who has less strict laws about this), you’ve likely never tasted real camembert. Cheesemakers often produce separate products to meet the U.S. requirements, so while you may have had some kind of camembert domestically, it is a far cry from its native French version, where the raw milk backbone produces much deeper flavors than the mild, mushroomy quality present in domestic camembert.
https://www.ice.edu/blog/what-is-raw-milk-cheese
Pasteurization can also kill good bacteria, the type that creates the nuances of flavor in cheese
Consumers who must wait 60 days to eat raw-milk cheeses are missing out on the authentic flavors and textures of young, traditional raw-milk European cheeses such as Brie and Reblochon
Instead, they must settle for the less-flavorful pasteurized versions allowed into the US
https://www.thespruceeats.com/raw-vs-pasteurized-cheese-591573
the risk of developing listeriosis is very nominal. In a country like France, where raw milk cheeses are the norm, the last serious outbreak reported by the World Health Organization was in 2000, when 7 people died (and that outbreak wasn’t even caused by raw milk cheese). Considering how much raw milk brie and camembert the country consumes, these are pretty slim odds.
The problem with the almost total ban on raw milk cheeses is that pasteurization is not the solution. Back in 2002, cheese from the Abbott’s Choice company was found to have Listeria, even though the cheeses were pasteurized. Listeria can not only survive in temperatures up to 150 degrees (and the minimum temperature for pasteurization is 145), but milk can be contaminated after the pasteurization process.
...Personally, I would not (and have not) hesitate to eat raw milk cheese, as well as sushi and all of the other “dangerous foods”. In fact, if you haven’t guessed, I am a very strong supporter of the superior flavor of raw milk cheeses. I feel that anyone who has done a comparison between pasteurized and raw milk versions will find it hard to disagree in this respect.
https://www.thekitchn.com/raw-vs-pasteuri-18517
posted by Don Pepino at 8:27 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
You sound like a pretty adventurous eater and food adventurer, but this cheese thing is a weird, and weirdly USian, gap in knowledge.
Unless you’ve traveled in France (or Canada, who has less strict laws about this), you’ve likely never tasted real camembert. Cheesemakers often produce separate products to meet the U.S. requirements, so while you may have had some kind of camembert domestically, it is a far cry from its native French version, where the raw milk backbone produces much deeper flavors than the mild, mushroomy quality present in domestic camembert.
https://www.ice.edu/blog/what-is-raw-milk-cheese
Pasteurization can also kill good bacteria, the type that creates the nuances of flavor in cheese
Consumers who must wait 60 days to eat raw-milk cheeses are missing out on the authentic flavors and textures of young, traditional raw-milk European cheeses such as Brie and Reblochon
Instead, they must settle for the less-flavorful pasteurized versions allowed into the US
https://www.thespruceeats.com/raw-vs-pasteurized-cheese-591573
the risk of developing listeriosis is very nominal. In a country like France, where raw milk cheeses are the norm, the last serious outbreak reported by the World Health Organization was in 2000, when 7 people died (and that outbreak wasn’t even caused by raw milk cheese). Considering how much raw milk brie and camembert the country consumes, these are pretty slim odds.
The problem with the almost total ban on raw milk cheeses is that pasteurization is not the solution. Back in 2002, cheese from the Abbott’s Choice company was found to have Listeria, even though the cheeses were pasteurized. Listeria can not only survive in temperatures up to 150 degrees (and the minimum temperature for pasteurization is 145), but milk can be contaminated after the pasteurization process.
...Personally, I would not (and have not) hesitate to eat raw milk cheese, as well as sushi and all of the other “dangerous foods”. In fact, if you haven’t guessed, I am a very strong supporter of the superior flavor of raw milk cheeses. I feel that anyone who has done a comparison between pasteurized and raw milk versions will find it hard to disagree in this respect.
https://www.thekitchn.com/raw-vs-pasteuri-18517
posted by Don Pepino at 8:27 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
Ignoring invisible dangers and scientific risk assessments is the latest branding of religious faith in action.
posted by Brian B. at 8:40 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 8:40 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
But Iowa has flipped — it’s a Republican state now, from the presidential vote to the governor’s office to the near-supermajority Legislature — and that flip has occurred alongside even larger shifts in national politics, spurred on by the rise of Donald Trump.
No no no, this was spurred on by the election of a black man as President. All else follows.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:44 AM on March 13 [13 favorites]
No no no, this was spurred on by the election of a black man as President. All else follows.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:44 AM on March 13 [13 favorites]
No no no, this was spurred on by the election of a black man as President. All else follows.
The election of a black man as president, the fact that you can be gay (and sometimes even trans) and live a good life rather than being totally marginalized and crushed, the fact that women are allowed to say on TV even that they don't like being harassed and sexually assaulted, etc.
It's not that they don't trust "government" or mainstream media or whatever, it's that they've stopped trusting the world to deliver nothing but approval for racist Christian patriarchy. That's what destabilized them - if you can't trust the world to make women shut up about rape and take away gay people's children, can you really trust it to deliver milk?
posted by Frowner at 8:53 AM on March 13 [34 favorites]
The election of a black man as president, the fact that you can be gay (and sometimes even trans) and live a good life rather than being totally marginalized and crushed, the fact that women are allowed to say on TV even that they don't like being harassed and sexually assaulted, etc.
It's not that they don't trust "government" or mainstream media or whatever, it's that they've stopped trusting the world to deliver nothing but approval for racist Christian patriarchy. That's what destabilized them - if you can't trust the world to make women shut up about rape and take away gay people's children, can you really trust it to deliver milk?
posted by Frowner at 8:53 AM on March 13 [34 favorites]
But I also think that the second that it becomes legal, big corporations will push raw milk as the next big thing.
No, the push will be to de-regulate - defund food and factories inspections, reporting of health issues and recalls, etc. Which will allow the big food companies to squeeze more profits out.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:20 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
No, the push will be to de-regulate - defund food and factories inspections, reporting of health issues and recalls, etc. Which will allow the big food companies to squeeze more profits out.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:20 AM on March 13 [11 favorites]
Pasteurization was developed because of the risk of acquiring Tuberculosis from milk consumption. Raw milk is capable of transmitting Campylobacter, Cryptosporidium, E. coli, Listeria, Brucella, Salmonella, Staphylococcus, Yersinia enterocolitica, diphtheria, and scarlet fever. Vaccination for Tb is uncommon in the US, because the rate of infection dropped so much, because of vaccination. Dairy farms must maintain extremely high standards for cleanliness. Raw milk is probably pretty safe, until there's a farm where somebody isn't as rigorous as they should be, or a worker at a farm is a non-vaxxer and gets diphtheria or, or. There are now strains of Tb that are quite drug-resistant. Pasteur is responsible for saving so, so many lives.
If dairies want to sell raw milk, they should be certified, at the very least. I'd be happy for the FDA to limit additives that other countries recognize as unsafe, to require that egg and chicken farms be safer, esp. against salmonella. Food safety depends on regulation and inspection, I'm for it.
posted by theora55 at 9:39 AM on March 13 [23 favorites]
If dairies want to sell raw milk, they should be certified, at the very least. I'd be happy for the FDA to limit additives that other countries recognize as unsafe, to require that egg and chicken farms be safer, esp. against salmonella. Food safety depends on regulation and inspection, I'm for it.
posted by theora55 at 9:39 AM on March 13 [23 favorites]
It's not that they don't trust "government" or mainstream media or whatever, it's that they've stopped trusting the world to deliver nothing but approval for racist Christian patriarchy. That's what destabilized them - if you can't trust the world to make women shut up about rape and take away gay people's children, can you really trust it to deliver milk?
These folks were around long before a woman could have a credit card and a man and a man could hold hands in public, and they'll be around as long as there's some sort of authority telling them not to do something. En masse germy dairy drinking by political party is something else, although I don't think it's actually happening.
posted by kingdead at 10:17 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
These folks were around long before a woman could have a credit card and a man and a man could hold hands in public, and they'll be around as long as there's some sort of authority telling them not to do something. En masse germy dairy drinking by political party is something else, although I don't think it's actually happening.
posted by kingdead at 10:17 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
I think the thing that will ultimately frighten people away from raw milk and its products is possibility the of getting bovine leukemia virus (BLV). A couple of studies showed 59% of US women with breast cancer had Bovine Leukemia Virus DNA (it’s actually a retrovirus) in their breast tissue compared to 29% of controls, and figures for Australian women were 80% and 41% respectively.
posted by jamjam at 10:19 AM on March 13 [15 favorites]
Bovine leukemia virus (BLV) is a virus that infects cattle around the world and is very similar to the human T-cell leukemia virus (HTLV), which causes adult T-cell leukemia/lymphoma (ATL). Recently, presence of BLV DNA and protein was demonstrated in commercial bovine products and in humans. BLV DNA is generally found at higher rates in humans who have or will develop breast cancer, according to research done with subjects from several countries. These findings have led to a hypothesis that BLV transmission plays a role in breast cancer oncogenesis in humans.If I knew for certain that a dairy was certified as BLV free, and that the milk from the dairy or dairies in the raw milk product I was consuming had been tested for BLV, I would consider eating it. Otherwise not.
[…]
BLV is present in buffy coat cells in 38% of subjects from the West Coast of the United States [18]. Authors did not test specifically for breast cancer. However, they analyzed the circumstances of BLV and possible links to leukemia and breast cancer and noted that “In the USA, 84% of US dairy herds and 39% of beef herds are infected” by BLV [18]. The researchers concluded that the primary transmission route of BLV to humans is zoonotic and foodborne, and circulation of BLV infected blood cells could carry BLV to various organs for later cancer genesis. The results are significant because they show that BLV can infect platelets and leukocytes, in addition to CD5+ B lymphocytes, T cells, and mammary epithelium cells.[…]
posted by jamjam at 10:19 AM on March 13 [15 favorites]
Raw milk, like raw eggs and bad ground beef, is unattractive to me because of the likelihood of carrying Bad Germs.
Yes, this means that I will miss out on certain cheeses, buuuuuut... Look, I was in France a few months ago and didn't eat those cheeses then, and I am 100% OK with that. I also don't eat the ones that are crawling with maggots because I get to choose what goes into my mouth.
But there are plenty of people who aren't thoughtful about risk, and we need to put some guardrails around those folks. I know there are also folks who want to distill their own hard liquor, but it's forbidden because they have (or had) a tendency to blow themselves up.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:29 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Yes, this means that I will miss out on certain cheeses, buuuuuut... Look, I was in France a few months ago and didn't eat those cheeses then, and I am 100% OK with that. I also don't eat the ones that are crawling with maggots because I get to choose what goes into my mouth.
But there are plenty of people who aren't thoughtful about risk, and we need to put some guardrails around those folks. I know there are also folks who want to distill their own hard liquor, but it's forbidden because they have (or had) a tendency to blow themselves up.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:29 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Ditto on the whole cheese thing. Thanks to Quebec and its cultural connections to France, raw milk cheese is legal in Canada. A local high-end grocer that I frequent for treats has a big cheese counter -- the contents of which count as some of the aforementioned treats -- and I'd say that about 15-20% of the items on sale are made from raw milk.
They're not that expensive and I haven't died yet, so there must be a relatively cheap way to make the milk safe, presumably a food standards choice that isn't being followed in the US. I know for a fact eggs in Europe are from chickens vaccinated for salmonella, for example, while that's not required here or in the US.
posted by Quindar Beep at 10:29 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
They're not that expensive and I haven't died yet, so there must be a relatively cheap way to make the milk safe, presumably a food standards choice that isn't being followed in the US. I know for a fact eggs in Europe are from chickens vaccinated for salmonella, for example, while that's not required here or in the US.
posted by Quindar Beep at 10:29 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Vaccination for Tb is uncommon in the US, because the rate of infection dropped so much, because of vaccination.
No, the existing TB vaccine (the BCG) is nowhere near that good and was never commonly used in the US. Our strategy was public education and legally-enforceable quarantine, treatment, and testing of contacts (with the tuberculin skin test).
The BCG is a lot cheaper than all that and is reasonably useful for protecting children from severe TB, though. Here's hoping our new vaccine development techniques will finally get us a good one for TB...
posted by McBearclaw at 10:41 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
No, the existing TB vaccine (the BCG) is nowhere near that good and was never commonly used in the US. Our strategy was public education and legally-enforceable quarantine, treatment, and testing of contacts (with the tuberculin skin test).
The BCG is a lot cheaper than all that and is reasonably useful for protecting children from severe TB, though. Here's hoping our new vaccine development techniques will finally get us a good one for TB...
posted by McBearclaw at 10:41 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]
there are plenty of people who aren't thoughtful about risk, and we need to put some guardrails around those folks.
?! Well, then we need to stop permitting the sale of raw chicken, beef, turkey, fish, and eggs, and those rigs to deep fry your turkey that unthoughtful-about-risk people use to burn down X houses a year by throwing frozen birds into boiling oil and we need to shut down the sushi restaurants and the oyster bars (not a moment too soon for that, given we've all but wacked the oyster fishery). Why are we weirdly restrictive about just this one risky food and not all the others why can I order steak tartar or softboiled egg in a restaurant and it's all legal as long as they put a "this could kill you" warning on the menu could it possibly have something to do with a million lobbyists thronging DC on behalf of the giant Ag conglomerates who knows it's a mystery
posted by Don Pepino at 10:51 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
?! Well, then we need to stop permitting the sale of raw chicken, beef, turkey, fish, and eggs, and those rigs to deep fry your turkey that unthoughtful-about-risk people use to burn down X houses a year by throwing frozen birds into boiling oil and we need to shut down the sushi restaurants and the oyster bars (not a moment too soon for that, given we've all but wacked the oyster fishery). Why are we weirdly restrictive about just this one risky food and not all the others why can I order steak tartar or softboiled egg in a restaurant and it's all legal as long as they put a "this could kill you" warning on the menu could it possibly have something to do with a million lobbyists thronging DC on behalf of the giant Ag conglomerates who knows it's a mystery
posted by Don Pepino at 10:51 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Needs that "turns out rebellion in 2020 is drinking raw milk, having big families, homeschooling our kids, nurturing our feminimity, and starting online businesses" instagram screenshot thats circulating ironically on tumblr.
posted by subdee at 11:07 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by subdee at 11:07 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Well, then we need to stop permitting the sale of raw chicken, beef, turkey, fish, and eggs
Not for nothing but you're not buying any of those foods in an unprocessed state, and every step of that processing has regulations and testing attached to it. IF we were being sold on Raw Milk with equally stringent testing and regulations, then I'd be more on board, but that's not what these folks are suggesting.
I mean I get that other places get to have unpasteurized cheeses that are better than our cheeses, they also have way more robust regulatory systems around food production including the quality and production of the milk used to make those specific cheeses.
Anyway, I can't help but wonder if this has something to do with the weird racist "I Drink MILK" internet dog whistle that went around awhile back.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:10 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
Not for nothing but you're not buying any of those foods in an unprocessed state, and every step of that processing has regulations and testing attached to it. IF we were being sold on Raw Milk with equally stringent testing and regulations, then I'd be more on board, but that's not what these folks are suggesting.
I mean I get that other places get to have unpasteurized cheeses that are better than our cheeses, they also have way more robust regulatory systems around food production including the quality and production of the milk used to make those specific cheeses.
Anyway, I can't help but wonder if this has something to do with the weird racist "I Drink MILK" internet dog whistle that went around awhile back.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:10 AM on March 13 [12 favorites]
other places get to have unpasteurized cheeses that are better than our cheeses, they also have way more robust regulatory systems around food production including the quality and production of the milk used to make those specific cheeses.
Yep, totally. They'd have to completely redo the whole system. Expensive, untenable in the short term. But I just wanna be able to buy imported cheese that doesn't suck, though. I really don't think that's going to break Kraft. I think Kraft will be fine.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:13 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
Yep, totally. They'd have to completely redo the whole system. Expensive, untenable in the short term. But I just wanna be able to buy imported cheese that doesn't suck, though. I really don't think that's going to break Kraft. I think Kraft will be fine.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:13 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]
The whole thread really is about what kind of threats raw milk pose to human health, dominated by very US-centric views about food health standards. Much of the world (including some very definitely first-world parts) consumes raw milk products without noticeable public health problems resulting. Some people need to update their priors.
Now, probably the practices of the dairy have significant influence on how safe the products are. Dairy farming practices that might be acceptable under the assumption that all the product will be pasteurized might not be acceptable for making products to be consumed raw.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 11:26 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
Now, probably the practices of the dairy have significant influence on how safe the products are. Dairy farming practices that might be acceptable under the assumption that all the product will be pasteurized might not be acceptable for making products to be consumed raw.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 11:26 AM on March 13 [14 favorites]
Dairy farming practices that might be acceptable under the assumption that all the product will be pasteurized might not be acceptable for making products to be consumed raw.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog
eponysterical?
posted by Gadarene at 11:34 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog
eponysterical?
posted by Gadarene at 11:34 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]
Between this and the anti-vax stuff I'm beginning to think that they all just have some weird grudge against Louis Pasteur.
Here's two eminent intellectuals debunking Louis Pasteur's germ theory to support their opposition to vaccines.
posted by betaray at 11:50 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Here's two eminent intellectuals debunking Louis Pasteur's germ theory to support their opposition to vaccines.
posted by betaray at 11:50 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Holy Moley, jamjam, I didn't know about that. and, thanks, McBearclaw, for the update.
posted by theora55 at 11:51 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:51 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]
As a kid who grew up with Raw Milk for 18 years from our landlords across the street, dunking into the tank and grabbing a pail of milk, 100% milkfat and all.
I have mixed feelings. I agree with local use and the understanding that risk is there. IDK what should be done between individuals in this case, I'm sure there is bad blood between someone somewhere who got sick from Raw Milk at this local level and probably took someone to court, IDK.
But beyond a local level you get the multiplier effects and risk etc. There's a reason we invented pasteurization.
There should be a happy medium that can be had, but as long as this is framed as "big bad nanny state vs freedumb loving amerishits" it's never gonna be solved.
I also have a feeling that there are a lot of city dwellers who pass judgement on this precisely because "look at these dumb anti-science hicks" which is pretty infuriating to hear if you have actually done this over the years and taken that risk. Frankly letting me drive at 16 was as bad or worse. And don't get me started about how we have no problem selling Alcohol to people with hardly any concern (in WI, not saying other states).
This might be "another market" but those who think this will save the family farm are fooling themselves. I don't trust any political org pushing this sort of thing, because the rhetoric always seems to amplify the anti-human protective measures needed to help society at scale.
I hate that we can't have reasonably sensible debate without a particular side always acting offended at the very thought of having to have responsibility for society. On the other hand, there are ways and reasons to do this sort of thing without being heavy handed or scaling. Petty Bureaucrats can make that harder. IDK.
I just know I liked Raw Milk. For all I know it's that and not the lead paint chips I ate that fucked me up. But I'm pretty sure it was the lead paint in the old houses.
posted by symbioid at 12:22 PM on March 13 [8 favorites]
I have mixed feelings. I agree with local use and the understanding that risk is there. IDK what should be done between individuals in this case, I'm sure there is bad blood between someone somewhere who got sick from Raw Milk at this local level and probably took someone to court, IDK.
But beyond a local level you get the multiplier effects and risk etc. There's a reason we invented pasteurization.
There should be a happy medium that can be had, but as long as this is framed as "big bad nanny state vs freedumb loving amerishits" it's never gonna be solved.
I also have a feeling that there are a lot of city dwellers who pass judgement on this precisely because "look at these dumb anti-science hicks" which is pretty infuriating to hear if you have actually done this over the years and taken that risk. Frankly letting me drive at 16 was as bad or worse. And don't get me started about how we have no problem selling Alcohol to people with hardly any concern (in WI, not saying other states).
This might be "another market" but those who think this will save the family farm are fooling themselves. I don't trust any political org pushing this sort of thing, because the rhetoric always seems to amplify the anti-human protective measures needed to help society at scale.
I hate that we can't have reasonably sensible debate without a particular side always acting offended at the very thought of having to have responsibility for society. On the other hand, there are ways and reasons to do this sort of thing without being heavy handed or scaling. Petty Bureaucrats can make that harder. IDK.
I just know I liked Raw Milk. For all I know it's that and not the lead paint chips I ate that fucked me up. But I'm pretty sure it was the lead paint in the old houses.
posted by symbioid at 12:22 PM on March 13 [8 favorites]
I mean, it's an article purely about raw milk in America, so naturally the discussion would be US-centric, no?
I do have to revise my standpoint that drinking raw milk is bad period. As a blanket statement, that's not really fair. In the US though... considering it, I have to assume there are some dairy farmers who care & know what they're doing enough for raw milk to be reasonably safe. I have to assume there's some raw milk drinkers who have an understanding of the risks. Generally in the US though, it's not really like sushi, is it? It's pretty easy to find easily understandable info on the risks of raw fish, best practices, & who should avoid eating it. Are there best practices for the production of raw milk in the US? How do you identify whether a source is reasonably safe in the US? Do most people drinking raw milk (...in the US) know?
My general perception that an American drinking raw milk in the US is either stupid, defiant, or misguided/ignorant probably comes from an unconscious bias I didn't realize I had. Raw milk is strongly associated with essential oil parents, who are strongly coded as bad in my head due to the doctor shunning and accidentally killing cats and stuff.
Now raw milk is associated with "good cheese" which obviously completely changes the unconscious bias landscape. Dunno if I'd eat cheese made with raw milk in the US, not sure the standards are up to scratch and my knowledge certainly isn't. Probably wouldn't vote for a complete legalisation of raw milk sales in my state without some regulations.
Side question: how different does raw milk taste from unhomogenized pasteurized milk?
posted by Baethan at 12:36 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
I do have to revise my standpoint that drinking raw milk is bad period. As a blanket statement, that's not really fair. In the US though... considering it, I have to assume there are some dairy farmers who care & know what they're doing enough for raw milk to be reasonably safe. I have to assume there's some raw milk drinkers who have an understanding of the risks. Generally in the US though, it's not really like sushi, is it? It's pretty easy to find easily understandable info on the risks of raw fish, best practices, & who should avoid eating it. Are there best practices for the production of raw milk in the US? How do you identify whether a source is reasonably safe in the US? Do most people drinking raw milk (...in the US) know?
My general perception that an American drinking raw milk in the US is either stupid, defiant, or misguided/ignorant probably comes from an unconscious bias I didn't realize I had. Raw milk is strongly associated with essential oil parents, who are strongly coded as bad in my head due to the doctor shunning and accidentally killing cats and stuff.
Now raw milk is associated with "good cheese" which obviously completely changes the unconscious bias landscape. Dunno if I'd eat cheese made with raw milk in the US, not sure the standards are up to scratch and my knowledge certainly isn't. Probably wouldn't vote for a complete legalisation of raw milk sales in my state without some regulations.
Side question: how different does raw milk taste from unhomogenized pasteurized milk?
posted by Baethan at 12:36 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
how different does raw milk taste from unhomogenized pasteurized milk?
I've purchased raw milk from a local dairy in the past year, to make my own cheese. During the pandemic and with work from home, I started to think about preparing and cooking food differently, and as many of us did, I engaged in prepping, smoking and fermenting foods at home often with a great deal of success.
Reader, I did successfully make cheese. It was perfectly adequate cheese. However, unlike my experiments with smoking or fermenting, it did not yield any benefit - either financial or gustatorial - compared with simply going to my local specialty grocer and buying some nice cheese off the shelf.
But how did the milk taste? tl;dr: Like milk.
For years, I've been a discount milk buyer, buying the cheapest possible milk with a good expiration date at the grocery, whether "Bargain Pastures" or "Sunnydale Farms" or whatever brand is there that makes you bend way, way down and reach into the deep recesses of the refrigerated case in order to save 57 cents (or more).
When making cheese, however, I was going to spring for the best in hopes that great ingredients and a certain amount of confidence would imbue my cheese with flavor beyond that of the imports. It didn't, but I'd be remiss in saying I didn't take a tipple of each of these pricy milks that came through my kitchen, and I'm a big middle-aged dude where a mere shot of raw milk would be unlikely to lay me low, and if it did it'd be entirely my own fault.
I had several in my fridge; raw milk from a local farm, low-heat pasteurized local milk, medium-heat pasteurized organic milk, and yes, Great Value ultra-pasteurized milk from Wal-Mart, already in the fridge to add accompaniment to cereal or help whip eggs. I performed my own taste test, and I do understand that this is my opinion alone here, but I assure you that I was completely ready to give extra points to the milk I paid more for and spent more time obtaining.
Great Value won. It was milky, it was refreshing, it had a flavor very similar to the other milks.
At the end of the day, this was all a tale told by an idiot, full of milk and boiling, signifying nothing.
posted by eschatfische at 1:27 PM on March 13 [17 favorites]
I've purchased raw milk from a local dairy in the past year, to make my own cheese. During the pandemic and with work from home, I started to think about preparing and cooking food differently, and as many of us did, I engaged in prepping, smoking and fermenting foods at home often with a great deal of success.
Reader, I did successfully make cheese. It was perfectly adequate cheese. However, unlike my experiments with smoking or fermenting, it did not yield any benefit - either financial or gustatorial - compared with simply going to my local specialty grocer and buying some nice cheese off the shelf.
But how did the milk taste? tl;dr: Like milk.
For years, I've been a discount milk buyer, buying the cheapest possible milk with a good expiration date at the grocery, whether "Bargain Pastures" or "Sunnydale Farms" or whatever brand is there that makes you bend way, way down and reach into the deep recesses of the refrigerated case in order to save 57 cents (or more).
When making cheese, however, I was going to spring for the best in hopes that great ingredients and a certain amount of confidence would imbue my cheese with flavor beyond that of the imports. It didn't, but I'd be remiss in saying I didn't take a tipple of each of these pricy milks that came through my kitchen, and I'm a big middle-aged dude where a mere shot of raw milk would be unlikely to lay me low, and if it did it'd be entirely my own fault.
I had several in my fridge; raw milk from a local farm, low-heat pasteurized local milk, medium-heat pasteurized organic milk, and yes, Great Value ultra-pasteurized milk from Wal-Mart, already in the fridge to add accompaniment to cereal or help whip eggs. I performed my own taste test, and I do understand that this is my opinion alone here, but I assure you that I was completely ready to give extra points to the milk I paid more for and spent more time obtaining.
Great Value won. It was milky, it was refreshing, it had a flavor very similar to the other milks.
At the end of the day, this was all a tale told by an idiot, full of milk and boiling, signifying nothing.
posted by eschatfische at 1:27 PM on March 13 [17 favorites]
Raw milk and raw milk aged cheese is legal in Pennsylvania with some additional permitting (Penn State PDF). You can probably mail order some of the cheese, too.
posted by sepviva at 2:08 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by sepviva at 2:08 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
So, so, many people died from bad and/or adulterated milk before pasteurization (and refrigeration). Maybe the taste is AMAZING, but I hear that fugu is too. It will still kill you a lot of the time.
"But Europe does it!" The European food system is very different from ours. Maybe they are capable of walking the fine line of safety + profit to make amazing cheeses without anyone dying. Maybe they are able to do that due to a long artisanal tradition instead of whackjob semireligious whoopdedoo plus a dash of "heh heh THIS will show those libs!"
I mean: I would love to know more about how they do all that, it would be cool if we could learn those lessons here. If someone had a genuine plan that showed how it was safe to do, I'd listen.
In the meantime, the whole thing gives me shivers. It would be beyond stupid to risk dying that way.
posted by emjaybee at 3:32 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
"But Europe does it!" The European food system is very different from ours. Maybe they are capable of walking the fine line of safety + profit to make amazing cheeses without anyone dying. Maybe they are able to do that due to a long artisanal tradition instead of whackjob semireligious whoopdedoo plus a dash of "heh heh THIS will show those libs!"
I mean: I would love to know more about how they do all that, it would be cool if we could learn those lessons here. If someone had a genuine plan that showed how it was safe to do, I'd listen.
In the meantime, the whole thing gives me shivers. It would be beyond stupid to risk dying that way.
posted by emjaybee at 3:32 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
emjaybee: I mean: I would love to know more about how they do all that
I don't know. We get some raw milk every week, from a farm; it's cooled, but that's all that's happened to it. There is a little sign that says you should boil the milk before using it.
My partner drinks half a liter every weekend, as a special weekend treat; he doesn't boil it. He doesn't get sick either. It does taste more milky than pasteurized milk.
It's odd to hear all y'all talking about raw milk as if it's something totally exotic and far away. For me, it's right in our fridge, every week.
In short, raw milk is a land of contrasts.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:52 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
I don't know. We get some raw milk every week, from a farm; it's cooled, but that's all that's happened to it. There is a little sign that says you should boil the milk before using it.
My partner drinks half a liter every weekend, as a special weekend treat; he doesn't boil it. He doesn't get sick either. It does taste more milky than pasteurized milk.
It's odd to hear all y'all talking about raw milk as if it's something totally exotic and far away. For me, it's right in our fridge, every week.
In short, raw milk is a land of contrasts.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:52 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Apparently in Australia, where pasteurization for cheese has been mandated only since 1998, they recently relaxed the rule and now may sell raw milk cheese if they test the cheese they make or import for pathogens. They're now importing a few unpasteurized cheeses.
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/jul/29/australia-uk-raw-milk-cheese-deal-fromageries-celebrate-melting-rules
The rule in Canada is only if aged 60 days, so apparently no brie for them, either.
https://thecheesewedge.ca/blogs/all-things-cheese/pasteurized-vs-unpasteurized-cheese
Scotland has some sensible ideas about it.
https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2018/12/fss-report-suggests-ways-to-improve-pathogen-control-in-raw-milk-cheeses/
This snapshot of the raw milk situation in the US in 2018 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6140832/) appears to indicate that the growing trend was not resulting in increased outbreaks of foodborne illness in the US in 2018, but 2018 is six years in the rearview and things change fast. Who's producing the milk? If it's the lady I used to buy cream and (absolutely divine) Turkish yogurt from at the farmar who began showing up in a black rifle coffee t-shirt and no COVID mask at the height of the pandemic, I'd say--in fact I did say--hell no to that. She clearly doesn't believe in germ theory, so she's probably not vaccinating the cows plus I don't want to fund Trump via the local antivax zealot dairymaid, so I'll skip cream or buy the substandard guar gummy pasteurized bullshit cream from the grocery store. But would I buy some raw milk cheese from a goatherd in the Swiss alps whose ancestors have been herding goats and making cheese since prehistoric times? Sure. Would I pay the import fees and buy it locally if a store near me started carrying it? Yes, I sure would.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:24 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/jul/29/australia-uk-raw-milk-cheese-deal-fromageries-celebrate-melting-rules
The rule in Canada is only if aged 60 days, so apparently no brie for them, either.
https://thecheesewedge.ca/blogs/all-things-cheese/pasteurized-vs-unpasteurized-cheese
Scotland has some sensible ideas about it.
https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2018/12/fss-report-suggests-ways-to-improve-pathogen-control-in-raw-milk-cheeses/
This snapshot of the raw milk situation in the US in 2018 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6140832/) appears to indicate that the growing trend was not resulting in increased outbreaks of foodborne illness in the US in 2018, but 2018 is six years in the rearview and things change fast. Who's producing the milk? If it's the lady I used to buy cream and (absolutely divine) Turkish yogurt from at the farmar who began showing up in a black rifle coffee t-shirt and no COVID mask at the height of the pandemic, I'd say--in fact I did say--hell no to that. She clearly doesn't believe in germ theory, so she's probably not vaccinating the cows plus I don't want to fund Trump via the local antivax zealot dairymaid, so I'll skip cream or buy the substandard guar gummy pasteurized bullshit cream from the grocery store. But would I buy some raw milk cheese from a goatherd in the Swiss alps whose ancestors have been herding goats and making cheese since prehistoric times? Sure. Would I pay the import fees and buy it locally if a store near me started carrying it? Yes, I sure would.
posted by Don Pepino at 4:24 PM on March 13 [3 favorites]
Between this and the anti-vax stuff I'm beginning to think that they all just have some weird grudge against Louis Pasteur.
Here's yt two eminent intellectuals debunking Louis Pasteur's germ theory to support their opposition to vaccines.
Oh yeah. They do have a grudge against Louis Pasteur! In addition to the germ theory thing, I caught a glimpse of a theory about how one of the Rothschilds funded Pasteur's research in order to advance the Rothschild cause of total world domination. I'd google it but I don't want to. It's fundamentally antisemitic, and you could probably guess the broad strokes of it anyway.
posted by knotty knots at 8:26 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
Here's yt two eminent intellectuals debunking Louis Pasteur's germ theory to support their opposition to vaccines.
Oh yeah. They do have a grudge against Louis Pasteur! In addition to the germ theory thing, I caught a glimpse of a theory about how one of the Rothschilds funded Pasteur's research in order to advance the Rothschild cause of total world domination. I'd google it but I don't want to. It's fundamentally antisemitic, and you could probably guess the broad strokes of it anyway.
posted by knotty knots at 8:26 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
There's a whole lot of "I never wore a bicycle helmet when I was a kid and I grew up fine!" in this thread.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:35 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 8:35 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]
Well I do have an uncommon urge to discuss the fact that I live in a culture where it s extremely common to eat raw oysters in totally gluttonous amounts, and I'm just confused because I don't think I've ever gotten sick from it, or known people to get sick, what am I missing
posted by eustatic at 9:26 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 9:26 PM on March 13 [2 favorites]
There's a whole lot of "I never wore a bicycle helmet when I was a kid and I grew up fine!" in this thread.
posted by Literaryhero at 8:35 PM on March 13 [+] [⚑]
It's true! A couple years ago we drove down the street we, as kids, used to ride on and holy cow! It was one blind corner after another. We regularly have conversations about the f*cking helmet issue because 1. helmets suck and yet 2. Antje, a friend of ours, wasn't wearing a helmet when she crashed and lost her sense of smell for a good number of years and so, you know - there's a reason!
Also, fucking "Conservatives" it's like, I don't understand something so it's wrong! Because I can feel it's wrong! I get that, I feel the same way about the Lotto (this time I'm gonna win!) and the speed of light (Aliens totally have FTL, it just makes sense.) The trick is knowing what you're stupid about, cf: German tax law/ immigration rules of all stripes. Pasteurisation. For those points you turn to smart people. Unless you're "Conservative."
posted by From Bklyn at 1:48 AM on March 14 [3 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 8:35 PM on March 13 [+] [⚑]
It's true! A couple years ago we drove down the street we, as kids, used to ride on and holy cow! It was one blind corner after another. We regularly have conversations about the f*cking helmet issue because 1. helmets suck and yet 2. Antje, a friend of ours, wasn't wearing a helmet when she crashed and lost her sense of smell for a good number of years and so, you know - there's a reason!
Also, fucking "Conservatives" it's like, I don't understand something so it's wrong! Because I can feel it's wrong! I get that, I feel the same way about the Lotto (this time I'm gonna win!) and the speed of light (Aliens totally have FTL, it just makes sense.) The trick is knowing what you're stupid about, cf: German tax law/ immigration rules of all stripes. Pasteurisation. For those points you turn to smart people. Unless you're "Conservative."
posted by From Bklyn at 1:48 AM on March 14 [3 favorites]
Antivax Zealot Dairymaid would be a great name for a Plasmatics cover band.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:04 AM on March 14 [5 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 7:04 AM on March 14 [5 favorites]
So is it official metafilter policy recreational drugs should be legal and regulated, but raw milk should be banned? That's.......odd.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:28 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:28 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]
I mean, there's no official metafilter anything, but personally I see nothing contradictory about being for consumer protections and against racist drug enforcement policies. They seem to be pretty unrelated.
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:10 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:10 PM on March 14 [5 favorites]
That makes a giant assumption that consumer protections and or regulations can't be racist, if that's the angle you are going for, which is just incredibly wrong.
Also how on earth do you square 'for consumer protections' when talking about drugs that kill about 100,000 people per year vs milk which (as far as I can tell) killed 2 people between 2002-2022?
Maybe Republicans are occasionally right about stupid minor stuff like milk, and Democrats are right that regulating things (perhaps harshly, depending on the product) is better than outright bans, at least for products that aren't expressly designed to kill, which I believe includes the liquid from a cow's teat.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:42 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
Also how on earth do you square 'for consumer protections' when talking about drugs that kill about 100,000 people per year vs milk which (as far as I can tell) killed 2 people between 2002-2022?
Maybe Republicans are occasionally right about stupid minor stuff like milk, and Democrats are right that regulating things (perhaps harshly, depending on the product) is better than outright bans, at least for products that aren't expressly designed to kill, which I believe includes the liquid from a cow's teat.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:42 PM on March 14 [1 favorite]
People in the US don't die from raw milk (or have miscarriages, early delivery, or still births) in high numbers because we regulate the shit out of milk. Removing those regulations could change things. We know that because these regulations, like so many, are written in blood.
From the FPP article:
From the FPP article:
By the 1920 census, America had become a majority-urban country. People moving to cities still wanted to drink milk, and the market provided — with smelly, bacteria-infested urban dairies. Many of these dairies were attached to distilleries, where cows could eat the waste left over from making whiskey and other alcohol. The so-called swill milk that was produced teemed with so much bacteria it was estimated to have killed 8,000 infants in New York City in a single year.posted by hydropsyche at 1:43 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
That makes a giant assumption that consumer protections and or regulations can't be racist, if that's the angle you are going for, which is just incredibly wrong.
No, it's saying that generally speaking Consumer protections are good things and that without exception racism is a bad thing. If you want to provide some reason you think that this particular regulation is enforced in such a way that targets racial minorities, I'm willing to listen. But since this is an article about a white nationalist movement being anti-regulation, I'm willing to dismiss them out of hand since I believe that a) Racist movements are bad and b) Consumer Protections are good.
posted by Gygesringtone at 1:57 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
No, it's saying that generally speaking Consumer protections are good things and that without exception racism is a bad thing. If you want to provide some reason you think that this particular regulation is enforced in such a way that targets racial minorities, I'm willing to listen. But since this is an article about a white nationalist movement being anti-regulation, I'm willing to dismiss them out of hand since I believe that a) Racist movements are bad and b) Consumer Protections are good.
posted by Gygesringtone at 1:57 PM on March 14 [3 favorites]
Out of curiosity I checked the regulations for selling raw milk in my EU country. Apparently you need certificates for the milking machine, your water source, the employees (with frequent health testing), the animals' health (inspected by government vets), and the animals (ear-tagged). Milk storage rooms have to be fully washable, insect- and rat-proof, with lockers and showers and and protective clothing for the employees. General farm cleanliness and frequent inspections, and all that just for the milk production - processing and selling are regulated separately unless you're under 1000 litres per week and selling the milk and cream yourself. Honestly with this amount of certificates and inspections I'd feel pretty safe drinking the milk from such a farm, but man it's expensive and takes an army of vets and inspectors. I assume the American approach would be "the market will sort it out" instead.
(On the other hand in communist Poland all milk was unpasteurised and you can bet pediatricians in particular were Very Particular about only ever giving kids boiled milk. I remember being boggled at American movies where people just poured it from the bottle into the glass. I also hated milk until the pasteurised kind showed up and I could drink it without boiling.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 3:05 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
(On the other hand in communist Poland all milk was unpasteurised and you can bet pediatricians in particular were Very Particular about only ever giving kids boiled milk. I remember being boggled at American movies where people just poured it from the bottle into the glass. I also hated milk until the pasteurised kind showed up and I could drink it without boiling.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 3:05 PM on March 14 [8 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Dairies are dying out, the benefit to local business would seem to outweigh the public health risk for what is a very niche market
If the laws are written to localize the markets and have labelling it could work
People in the USA have no idea how shit the Farm Bill is, and I believe there could be a rural - liberal consensus against how consolidated food production has gotten. A USA United against Tyson.
I get where the article is going but food production is so consolidated, and corporations are messing with prices so much
I do think anyone with any kind of ideology is going to dislike the food system in the USA right now
posted by eustatic at 2:57 AM on March 13 [25 favorites]