Russian Disinformation: Anti-Semitism, Hamas, Ukraine, the Border
March 18, 2024 3:20 PM Subscribe
Disinformation has one goal: To change the perception of reality of every American....[F]ake news ... [is] actually an old term used by the Soviet Union as a reference to disinformation campaigns that the Soviets and now the Russians have long used to destabilize the West.... The Kremlin’s messaging has an extraordinary reach: In the first year of the Ukraine war alone, posts by Kremlin-linked accounts were viewed at least 16 billion times by Westerners."Bots, trolls, targeted ad campaigns, fake news organizations, and doppelganger accounts of real Western politicians and pundits spread stories concocted in Moscow." The purpose of the propaganda is to further Putin's policy goals: to recolonize Ukraine, to destabilize the West and to power the rise of fascist-friendly governments. How does Putin expect to achieve that? Through conventional warfare, indoctrination, and covert anti-semitic and anti-migrant propaganda.
Russia has a long history of disinformation and antisemitism. Because Putin had positive experiences with Jews in his private life, anti-semitism abated under his rule. But all of that has recently been up-ended. Using Jews as the "gateway" sacrifice to create division in the United States and Europe, the intention is to "prime" the West for the "othering" of migrant populations flooding both continents. The othering of Jews breeds violence, division and fear. The othering of migrants also breeds nativist resentment, which is highly correlated with the rise of right-wing governments, and even — in the US, Italy, Finland, Sweden, Belgium, Holland and elsewhere — the fascist right.
What makes this campaign so scary is Americans are terrible at identifying disinformation, especially younger Americans who, as a demographic, spend the most time on social media platforms riddled with propaganda.
The Brookings Institution's What is Russia’s role in the Israel-Gaza crisis? and the Wilson Center's Putin Hints at a Mediator Role but Sides with Hamas both provide readable primers on some of Russia's "hi-jinks." The most thorough read, however, comes courtesy of the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism's How Russia uses the Israel-Gaza Crisis in its disinformation campaign against the West.
For more information on disinformation and propaganda, see the Brookings' multi-parter on Parsing disinformation in the Israel-Hamas conflict and the transcript to Fresh Air's interview with Peter Pomerantsev on his latest book How to Win an Information War.
An excellent historical primer on this topic is The Folly and the Glory: America, Russia, and Political Warfare 1945–2020 by Tim Weiner (he also wrote the Pulitzer-winning "Legacy of Ashes" about the sordid history of the CIA)
Just one example from the book: For those who grew up in the 1980s, you may have heard rumors about the CIA "inventing" AIDS as a way to destroy African American communities? Russian disinformation compaign.
posted by gwint at 3:53 PM on March 18 [14 favorites]
Just one example from the book: For those who grew up in the 1980s, you may have heard rumors about the CIA "inventing" AIDS as a way to destroy African American communities? Russian disinformation compaign.
posted by gwint at 3:53 PM on March 18 [14 favorites]
I still think Russian TikTok troll farms are why the ban passed the House with such bipartisan support.
posted by lock robster at 4:47 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
posted by lock robster at 4:47 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
For the record, I really am a rootless cosmopolitan.
I don't desire a tattoo, bit if I did.....
posted by atomicstone at 5:02 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
I don't desire a tattoo, bit if I did.....
posted by atomicstone at 5:02 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
Per ICCT: Putin has welcomed a Hamas delegation into the Kremlin.
You mean the one reported by Reuters as Russia calls on Palestinians to unite at Moscow talks, which noted, "The talks between representatives of Hamas and the Fatah political faction come days after Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh resigned."
The one that regional analysts apparently noted as a talkshop with no major consensus reached, which you may have noticed in the last week with Fatah's announcement that was immediately parried by the "resistance" groups?
The other red flag in that report is how, even American intelligence briefs would have in their preamble that "Hamas" is a catch-all term for the current band of militants and their political wings.
Finally, remember when Soviet Union were distributing all those whataboutism pamphlets aimed at Black Americans about how in America, "you'd be lynched"? Did that mean American racism and Jim Crow-era laws were fake?
And with that said, when does it become disinformation?
In any case, I have no doubt the Russian trolls are on this, not to mention outright Russian-funded American antisemites like Jackson Hinkle. Politically though, it's been a dud so far. Not even Iran had much to do, well at least according to American intel (ODNI PDF report) - fwiw that took a look at Russia's work on the ground, and I'd be interested why then American intelligence community barely mentioned their involvement if any in Palestine right now, while the same names who are much more stronger in commentating on Russia as shared in the FPP (Fiona Hill) are more confident to speculate and comment on Russia's relationship with Israel actually, unlike that Dutch ICCT report.
posted by cendawanita at 5:03 PM on March 18 [27 favorites]
You mean the one reported by Reuters as Russia calls on Palestinians to unite at Moscow talks, which noted, "The talks between representatives of Hamas and the Fatah political faction come days after Palestinian Prime Minister Mohammad Shtayyeh resigned."
The one that regional analysts apparently noted as a talkshop with no major consensus reached, which you may have noticed in the last week with Fatah's announcement that was immediately parried by the "resistance" groups?
The other red flag in that report is how, even American intelligence briefs would have in their preamble that "Hamas" is a catch-all term for the current band of militants and their political wings.
Finally, remember when Soviet Union were distributing all those whataboutism pamphlets aimed at Black Americans about how in America, "you'd be lynched"? Did that mean American racism and Jim Crow-era laws were fake?
And with that said, when does it become disinformation?
In any case, I have no doubt the Russian trolls are on this, not to mention outright Russian-funded American antisemites like Jackson Hinkle. Politically though, it's been a dud so far. Not even Iran had much to do, well at least according to American intel (ODNI PDF report) - fwiw that took a look at Russia's work on the ground, and I'd be interested why then American intelligence community barely mentioned their involvement if any in Palestine right now, while the same names who are much more stronger in commentating on Russia as shared in the FPP (Fiona Hill) are more confident to speculate and comment on Russia's relationship with Israel actually, unlike that Dutch ICCT report.
posted by cendawanita at 5:03 PM on March 18 [27 favorites]
And that Wilson Center brief, for that matter.
(In the interest of not metastasizing the thread, the ones specifically on Israel and the US (and the West) and Palestine are still open)
posted by cendawanita at 5:06 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
(In the interest of not metastasizing the thread, the ones specifically on Israel and the US (and the West) and Palestine are still open)
posted by cendawanita at 5:06 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
...when your average griefer can cook up the infowar equivalent of smallpox in their basement.
As Carly Simon once put it, these are the good old days.
posted by y2karl at 5:25 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
As Carly Simon once put it, these are the good old days.
posted by y2karl at 5:25 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
Does "the west" have disinfo social media troll farms working against Russia? That we are aware of?
posted by Windopaene at 5:32 PM on March 18 [3 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 5:32 PM on March 18 [3 favorites]
And with that said, when does it become disinformation?
The whole point is that Russian psyops aren't interested in the well being of the Palestinians, the Israelis, or anyone else in the world. The point is to weaken their perceived enemies by any means necessary. In the context of the I/P conflict, that means amping up the rhetoric on both sides to sow discord in the West. A peaceful outcome to the conflict is not in Russias interests unless that outcome somehow harms the West and strengthens Russia.
posted by gwint at 5:41 PM on March 18 [26 favorites]
The whole point is that Russian psyops aren't interested in the well being of the Palestinians, the Israelis, or anyone else in the world. The point is to weaken their perceived enemies by any means necessary. In the context of the I/P conflict, that means amping up the rhetoric on both sides to sow discord in the West. A peaceful outcome to the conflict is not in Russias interests unless that outcome somehow harms the West and strengthens Russia.
posted by gwint at 5:41 PM on March 18 [26 favorites]
You mean to tell me Russia is a failed state of degenerates and criminals, desperately trying to cling to some kind of relevance before their filthy worthless shit country slips under the waves of Time forever, remembered only as a cautionary tale if they are remembered at all?
Dang!
posted by chronkite at 6:11 PM on March 18 [9 favorites]
Dang!
posted by chronkite at 6:11 PM on March 18 [9 favorites]
The interesting thing is seeing people online repeating things that obviously stem from disinformation campaigns, but that they genuinely feel they came to organically. There's clearly a through-line from the disinformation to the person repeating it, but there are a lot of secondary steps along the way that disambiguate the pathway.
Finally, remember when Soviet Union were distributing all those whataboutism pamphlets aimed at Black Americans about how in America, "you'd be lynched"? Did that mean American racism and Jim Crow-era laws were fake?
I'm currently reading the recent Martin Luther King Jr biography by Jonathan Eig (which I strongly recommend) which is about exactly this time period and about precisely the events that were a feature in those old USSR campaigns. The parallels between then and now are really strong, including the complex interplay of US and Russian propaganda campaigns. Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:17 PM on March 18 [22 favorites]
Finally, remember when Soviet Union were distributing all those whataboutism pamphlets aimed at Black Americans about how in America, "you'd be lynched"? Did that mean American racism and Jim Crow-era laws were fake?
I'm currently reading the recent Martin Luther King Jr biography by Jonathan Eig (which I strongly recommend) which is about exactly this time period and about precisely the events that were a feature in those old USSR campaigns. The parallels between then and now are really strong, including the complex interplay of US and Russian propaganda campaigns. Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:17 PM on March 18 [22 favorites]
A peaceful outcome to the conflict is not in Russias interests unless that outcome somehow harms the West and strengthens Russia.
Agreed. And so, the question isn't that if this sort of effort exists at all (it clearly does) but if it is substantive ands effective (this is less clear, to the point it barely makes a blip as an immediate flag but people are definitely noting). In part because Palestine as an actual plank of American politics took everyone by surprise, so if there's work it's powered by scrambled resources (as opposed to the work done with and about Israel that's long and established).
Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch.
Correct. The state of play that genuinely changed way faster than anticipated is the valence and salience of Palestine as an issue at all. This makes it hard to say in the near-term if Russia has made any headway, not to mention the privatised nature of its foreign legion (as it were) meant Palestinians were never a market of interest.
Does "the west" have disinfo social media troll farms working against Russia? That we are aware of?
No, if you're thinking about the sort that Reuters just did an expose of, about Trump-era campaign against China (that's not clear if it's been discontinued). Two possible explanations: 1) if there's anything worth leaking, it won't happen now as there's high consensus about the necessity for the war (or at least checking Russia, which may not be the same as supporting Ukraine); 2) based on previous history, this exact sort of thing is unusual compared to established American practice with regards to propagandizing against Russia, which is well-placed in other spheres of mainstream consensus-formation institutions.
posted by cendawanita at 6:25 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
Agreed. And so, the question isn't that if this sort of effort exists at all (it clearly does) but if it is substantive ands effective (this is less clear, to the point it barely makes a blip as an immediate flag but people are definitely noting). In part because Palestine as an actual plank of American politics took everyone by surprise, so if there's work it's powered by scrambled resources (as opposed to the work done with and about Israel that's long and established).
Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch.
Correct. The state of play that genuinely changed way faster than anticipated is the valence and salience of Palestine as an issue at all. This makes it hard to say in the near-term if Russia has made any headway, not to mention the privatised nature of its foreign legion (as it were) meant Palestinians were never a market of interest.
Does "the west" have disinfo social media troll farms working against Russia? That we are aware of?
No, if you're thinking about the sort that Reuters just did an expose of, about Trump-era campaign against China (that's not clear if it's been discontinued). Two possible explanations: 1) if there's anything worth leaking, it won't happen now as there's high consensus about the necessity for the war (or at least checking Russia, which may not be the same as supporting Ukraine); 2) based on previous history, this exact sort of thing is unusual compared to established American practice with regards to propagandizing against Russia, which is well-placed in other spheres of mainstream consensus-formation institutions.
posted by cendawanita at 6:25 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
You mean to tell me Russia is a failed state of degenerates and criminals, desperately trying to cling to some kind of relevance before their filthy worthless shit country slips under the waves of Time forever, remembered only as a cautionary tale if they are remembered at all?
The Russian Federation, or Russia?
Russia will still be there, and so will Russians.
Nations predate states and, at that size, are rather durable.
This may be the final end of the remnant of their empire; but that's different.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:26 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
The Russian Federation, or Russia?
Russia will still be there, and so will Russians.
Nations predate states and, at that size, are rather durable.
This may be the final end of the remnant of their empire; but that's different.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:26 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
I’m glad we’re in agreement on everything but the naming formalities.
posted by chronkite at 6:30 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 6:30 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
Plus there is that possessing the.world's largest nuclear arsenal also currently undergoing an upgrade blue whale in the living room part.
posted by y2karl at 6:35 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 6:35 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
Hmm. Probably not quite. I don't think it's just going to vanish from the world stage and be forgotten, any more than China could be.
Like when Petey Z-Man declares 'China won't be there in ten years.'
OK, well what and who will? I bet we'll still be calling it China and calling them Chinese.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:35 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
Like when Petey Z-Man declares 'China won't be there in ten years.'
OK, well what and who will? I bet we'll still be calling it China and calling them Chinese.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:35 PM on March 18 [4 favorites]
For those who grew up in the 1980s, you may have heard rumors about the CIA "inventing" AIDS as a way to destroy African American communities? Russian disinformation compaign.
The thing is, the American intelligence/security/military apparatus did spend decades doing terrible shit to the Black community like the Tuskegee Experiment, COINTELPRO, etc. These aren't Russian disinformation campaigns, they are real, documented activities of various organs of the United States government. For fuck's sake, we have a letter from the FBI to Martin Luther King strongly implying that he should kill himself!
So maybe these disinformation campaigns wouldn't be so effective if we ourselves weren't constantly engaged in so much evil shit that it's easy to accept seemingly yet another instance of it.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:40 PM on March 18 [50 favorites]
The thing is, the American intelligence/security/military apparatus did spend decades doing terrible shit to the Black community like the Tuskegee Experiment, COINTELPRO, etc. These aren't Russian disinformation campaigns, they are real, documented activities of various organs of the United States government. For fuck's sake, we have a letter from the FBI to Martin Luther King strongly implying that he should kill himself!
So maybe these disinformation campaigns wouldn't be so effective if we ourselves weren't constantly engaged in so much evil shit that it's easy to accept seemingly yet another instance of it.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:40 PM on March 18 [50 favorites]
Does "the west" have disinfo social media troll farms working against Russia? That we are aware of?
of course you're going to laugh but that's the point.
posted by clavdivs at 6:53 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
of course you're going to laugh but that's the point.
posted by clavdivs at 6:53 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
LMAO, now I feel it's appropriate to relate what's been told to me: sure the yanks can do it, but they're bad at it.
posted by cendawanita at 6:57 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:57 PM on March 18 [6 favorites]
Who is financing the disinformation campaign that’s trying to muddy the waters about why people are up in arms about the genocide Israel is perpetrating in Gaza? Is Russia a weak state that’s in imminent danger of collapse or is a supremely powerful enemy that works their mystery, shadowy propaganda ways to convince all us westerners that up is down, left is right, Trump is good and Israel is bad actually? Good thing that the US empire and its goons don’t have any actually effective propaganda operations manipulating good ol red white and blue Americans…
Thank goodness we’ve got the fucking Brookings Institute out here putting in work to help us understand, they certainly wouldn’t know anything about manufacturing consent would they? ::spends two minutes googling and finds this::
“ Michael O’Hanlon, a senior fellow in the foreign policy studies program at the Brookings Institution, told an audience at Bates College on Sept. 19 that war with Iraq might be the only way to forestall Saddam Hussein’s employment of weapons of mass destruction”
Weird, I guess it takes a disinformation campaign to know one?
posted by youthenrage at 7:02 PM on March 18 [27 favorites]
Thank goodness we’ve got the fucking Brookings Institute out here putting in work to help us understand, they certainly wouldn’t know anything about manufacturing consent would they? ::spends two minutes googling and finds this::
“ Michael O’Hanlon, a senior fellow in the foreign policy studies program at the Brookings Institution, told an audience at Bates College on Sept. 19 that war with Iraq might be the only way to forestall Saddam Hussein’s employment of weapons of mass destruction”
Weird, I guess it takes a disinformation campaign to know one?
posted by youthenrage at 7:02 PM on March 18 [27 favorites]
Is Russia a weak state that’s in imminent danger of collapse
On behalf of all the people who live in or had to flee former Russian/Soviet colonies, many of whom still live every day with concerted Russian campaigns to undermine their countries and the threat of Russian violence (or are actively suffering Russian violence as we speak)-- god, I wish this was the case.
posted by Method Man at 7:20 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
On behalf of all the people who live in or had to flee former Russian/Soviet colonies, many of whom still live every day with concerted Russian campaigns to undermine their countries and the threat of Russian violence (or are actively suffering Russian violence as we speak)-- god, I wish this was the case.
posted by Method Man at 7:20 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
sure the yanks can do it, but they're bad at it.
Bad is good and up is sideways. the obvious flaws within the video, it seemingly cheap Hollywood production, it's unlikely message to reach the average soldier or intelligence officer is exactly the point. intended messages to reach those who are thinking of defection, when they see this they think, well America is a bunch of clowns and I just figured out the flaws in their video but I still want to defect and how am I going to defect to the Americans while I'll just go to ukrainians all the while thinking why in the hell did they put this out in the first place they're f****** with my head, my country in dramatic mocking way.
posted by clavdivs at 7:22 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
Bad is good and up is sideways. the obvious flaws within the video, it seemingly cheap Hollywood production, it's unlikely message to reach the average soldier or intelligence officer is exactly the point. intended messages to reach those who are thinking of defection, when they see this they think, well America is a bunch of clowns and I just figured out the flaws in their video but I still want to defect and how am I going to defect to the Americans while I'll just go to ukrainians all the while thinking why in the hell did they put this out in the first place they're f****** with my head, my country in dramatic mocking way.
posted by clavdivs at 7:22 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
in the trade it is called diversion.
posted by clavdivs at 7:25 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 7:25 PM on March 18 [1 favorite]
So maybe these disinformation campaigns wouldn't be so effective if we ourselves weren't constantly engaged in so much evil shit that it's easy to accept seemingly yet another instance of it.
As Dip Flash said above: "Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch."
Again, the whole way "political warfare"/"active measures"/psyops/disinformation campaigns work is to take some element of truth, add some exaggeration, mix it with some hard to disprove lies, and package it in a way that increases its chance of going viral. In Russia's case, success is when the West becomes more divided, more angry and distrustful at each other and our institutions. That's why you play both sides (i.e. Russians Staged Rallies For and Against Trump to Promote Discord)
posted by gwint at 7:32 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
As Dip Flash said above: "Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch."
Again, the whole way "political warfare"/"active measures"/psyops/disinformation campaigns work is to take some element of truth, add some exaggeration, mix it with some hard to disprove lies, and package it in a way that increases its chance of going viral. In Russia's case, success is when the West becomes more divided, more angry and distrustful at each other and our institutions. That's why you play both sides (i.e. Russians Staged Rallies For and Against Trump to Promote Discord)
posted by gwint at 7:32 PM on March 18 [11 favorites]
>> A peaceful outcome to the conflict is not in Russias interests unless that outcome somehow harms the West and strengthens Russia.
> Agreed. And so, the question isn't that if this sort of effort exists at all (it clearly does) but if it is substantive ands effective (this is less clear, to the point it barely makes a blip as an immediate flag but people are definitely noting).
If you just read some of the links provided in the FPP, I'm not sure you would be minimizing this as "a blip"
posted by gwint at 7:35 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
> Agreed. And so, the question isn't that if this sort of effort exists at all (it clearly does) but if it is substantive ands effective (this is less clear, to the point it barely makes a blip as an immediate flag but people are definitely noting).
If you just read some of the links provided in the FPP, I'm not sure you would be minimizing this as "a blip"
posted by gwint at 7:35 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
Why do you miss out on my temporal adverbs though? I mean them not to equivocate.
when they see this they think, well America is a bunch of clowns and I just figured out the flaws in their video but I still want to defect and how am I going to defect to the Americans while I'll just go to ukrainians all the while thinking why in the hell did they put this out in the first place they're f****** with my head, my country in dramatic mocking way.
I don't want to give the impression of 3-D chess, but it's a bit more subtle than that. There's a certain international brand in Americans being doofuses. It's disarming.
posted by cendawanita at 7:45 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
when they see this they think, well America is a bunch of clowns and I just figured out the flaws in their video but I still want to defect and how am I going to defect to the Americans while I'll just go to ukrainians all the while thinking why in the hell did they put this out in the first place they're f****** with my head, my country in dramatic mocking way.
I don't want to give the impression of 3-D chess, but it's a bit more subtle than that. There's a certain international brand in Americans being doofuses. It's disarming.
posted by cendawanita at 7:45 PM on March 18 [5 favorites]
There's a lot more going on than just disinformation. Guilt and proud entitlement are targeted for effect, the former among liberals who feel fortunate compared to the rest of the world, and the latter among conservatives who feel unrewarded. Both tactics require a moralizing tone of authority to sway any feelings of inferiority to strangers, which is a sign of fraud.
posted by Brian B. at 7:48 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 7:48 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
I don't want to give the impression of 3-D chess, but it's a bit more subtle than that. There's a certain international brand in Americans being doofuses. It's disarming.
For a country that is supposedly full of rubes, we do manage to get a certain amount of mischief done, quite consistently.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
For a country that is supposedly full of rubes, we do manage to get a certain amount of mischief done, quite consistently.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:52 PM on March 18 [2 favorites]
Ding ding. It's helped by other democratic processes too - whistleblowers, leaks, investigative journalism, civil society. Dissidents to the west value and appreciate this in its entirety, and usually helps them to work past the inconsistencies (e.g. "if they're so goofy, why so many extra judicial interventions?") because those processes are missing back home. But sometimes even that's not enough when they hit on certain shibboleths, like how Ai Weiwei concluded: Ai Weiwei Says Western Censorship Is ‘More Concealed’ and Poses a Greater Threat.
posted by cendawanita at 7:57 PM on March 18 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:57 PM on March 18 [8 favorites]
One of the most carefully used, and historically consistent anti-western propaganda tropes is that only the West ever has agency, such as that Ukraine is reduced in this to a proxy force fighting on behalf of NATO, which in turn is a paw of the United States, and so on and so forth. In this model, populist opposition to dictators in e.g. the Arab Spring and post-Soviet republics are only ever CIA-linked 'colour revolutions', once again, maximising Western agency and eliminating that of the dictators, of the local opposition, and of ordinary people. Like all propaganda, it doesn't rely on alternative facts, just alternative narratives. If you're primed to see Western perfidy everywhere, you're probably also going to find yourself defeatist and sceptical that things could be better.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:51 PM on March 18 [19 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:51 PM on March 18 [19 favorites]
People in the west have been getting "information" from Yevgeny Prigozhin, the guy who was walking around making his social videos, up to his chin in dead bodies in Ukraine before he took his final plunge. For years we've allowed him and other mafia cronies to have open access to spew whatever garbage they wanted on the internet.
Back in the day it was just "Russian hackers" but it turned out to be state actors.
And, years later, we still have no solution to it.
Meanwhile, their propagandists are threatening us with nuclear destruction every single day. On television.
posted by romanb at 12:01 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Back in the day it was just "Russian hackers" but it turned out to be state actors.
And, years later, we still have no solution to it.
Meanwhile, their propagandists are threatening us with nuclear destruction every single day. On television.
posted by romanb at 12:01 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
It's possible for Russia to be a failing state and still have a competent disinformation arm. Troll farms are cheaper than maintaining national infrastucture.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:11 AM on March 19 [22 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:11 AM on March 19 [22 favorites]
The reporting on Russian disinfo by hawkish orgs like Brookings and Foreign Policy is itself misleading, in that it serves primarily to reinforce how important it is to never question the establishment narrative. Because such pieces rarely if ever reflect on the countless, often quite brazen, propaganda campaigns spearheaded by the US. This one-sided perspective makes them frankly useless for understanding the conflict space. Case in point in the FPP link to PBS is the reference to Bezmenov, without comment or discussion, when Bezmenov was an absolutely rabid right-wing figure, associated with the John Birch Society, who made a name for himself by stoking the fear of the Soviet menace right up until the Soviet Union collapsed.
It's convenient to blame Putin for everything from rising antisemitism to anti-migrant sentiments to the election of Trump. Not only does it mean budgets for think tanks on disinformation expertise go up, it also avoids having to face up to the fact that large swathes of the voting public, in the US and throughout Europe, are angry and disaffected quite apart from any Russian influence.
posted by dmh at 4:58 AM on March 19 [16 favorites]
It's convenient to blame Putin for everything from rising antisemitism to anti-migrant sentiments to the election of Trump. Not only does it mean budgets for think tanks on disinformation expertise go up, it also avoids having to face up to the fact that large swathes of the voting public, in the US and throughout Europe, are angry and disaffected quite apart from any Russian influence.
posted by dmh at 4:58 AM on March 19 [16 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Let's keep the focus on the subject and be considerate and respectful about other others, per the Guidelines.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:24 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:24 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Hi again, if you object to a deletion in this thread, you can submit a MetaTalk thread or use the Contact Us form, but arguing about it in this original thread is not a possibility, so please refrain from doing so, thank you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:34 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:34 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
dmh saying it better than I could. The US is as guilty, if not more, of all the evil shit Russia does (I’ll see your Ukraine and raise you Iraq and Afghanistan! We just rubber stamped a totally corrupt election in Pakistan! The US IS TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTIN BEING IN POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE!) Brookings is a completely corrupt institution that exists to provide sinecures for the mouthpieces of empire, funded by the arms industry. They are not good faith actors, they are writing ad copy for people who sell bombs and guns. The suggestion that when we see a picture of a dead Palestinian kid we should not focus so much on the facts that the US built and delivered the bombs and the jets that dropped them, maybe even the targeting data, or the fact that the most moral army of the only democracy in the Middle East is doing a genocide but instead scrutinize the username to make sure Ivan76347865 isn’t doing dezinformatsya on us is ridiculous.
posted by youthenrage at 6:31 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 6:31 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
Just to be clear, fuck Russian disinfo. I notice it online, anyone can, it's absolutely noxious garbage that's vertiginously stupid, sometimes in a sick way well-made. There's also a lot of noxious, stupid garbage that's not Russian disinfo, as indeed, quite close to home.
posted by dmh at 6:42 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
posted by dmh at 6:42 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
Certainly we have a century plus of the US government meddling in foreign affairs. This doesn’t mean we can’t be concerned what Russian disinformation is doing in the west.
Ironically it is American made social media need to amplify emergent of ad dollars that really makes some of this propaganda effective/viral.
I have been mostly off Facebook since the 2016 election, but I temper being absolutely shocked by some of the things that get shared, many things that are easily proven false with a quick google. As DMH noted that’s not all Russian, but it helps Steve Brannon flood the zone with shit.
We need need be bring up the next generation with better media literacy too.
posted by CostcoCultist at 7:01 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
Ironically it is American made social media need to amplify emergent of ad dollars that really makes some of this propaganda effective/viral.
I have been mostly off Facebook since the 2016 election, but I temper being absolutely shocked by some of the things that get shared, many things that are easily proven false with a quick google. As DMH noted that’s not all Russian, but it helps Steve Brannon flood the zone with shit.
We need need be bring up the next generation with better media literacy too.
posted by CostcoCultist at 7:01 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
In the Kate Middleton FPP the other day, someone linked an interview with a Bellingcat researcher. The key quote is in this comment, with the article itself linked a few comments above:
"It reminds me a lot of other conspiracy theories where they’re clearly building the analysis around a theory rather than building a theory from analysis,” he said. As an example of this faulty reasoning, Higgins pointed to Aston’s incorrect claim that Kate’s sweater comes in only cream and camel: “It’s really poor analysis, but I usually see that stuff about terrible war crimes, so at least it’s not that.”
This is exactly what makes misinformation campaigns so powerful. People are frequently looking for information that supports their existing theory, rather than evaluating a lot of evidence to develop a theory. So misinformation/propaganda that draws on a basis of fact, and is tailored towards people's preexisting theories and beliefs, is going to find a ready audience. It's easy to see when it is people repeating things that you don't believe, but a lot harder to see when people are repeating things that align with your own views.
And if your goals are creating tensions and divisions, then you can do this agnostically, finding issues on all sides to amplify since everyone is at least somewhat vulnerable to this.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
"It reminds me a lot of other conspiracy theories where they’re clearly building the analysis around a theory rather than building a theory from analysis,” he said. As an example of this faulty reasoning, Higgins pointed to Aston’s incorrect claim that Kate’s sweater comes in only cream and camel: “It’s really poor analysis, but I usually see that stuff about terrible war crimes, so at least it’s not that.”
This is exactly what makes misinformation campaigns so powerful. People are frequently looking for information that supports their existing theory, rather than evaluating a lot of evidence to develop a theory. So misinformation/propaganda that draws on a basis of fact, and is tailored towards people's preexisting theories and beliefs, is going to find a ready audience. It's easy to see when it is people repeating things that you don't believe, but a lot harder to see when people are repeating things that align with your own views.
And if your goals are creating tensions and divisions, then you can do this agnostically, finding issues on all sides to amplify since everyone is at least somewhat vulnerable to this.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:15 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
CostcoCultist I agree! What drives me crazy with this post and thread in particular and this kind of conversation more generally is that most people don’t seem to make the leap that organizations like Brookings are doing the EXACT SAME SHIT they’re accusing Russia/Hamas/whoever of doing. They’re trying to shape the info space towards their interest which is to get as close to war as possible with (for now) Russia and China in order to maximize money flowing towards the military industrial complex, with a side goal of sowing suspicion about people who support or sympathize with Palestinians. The fucking call is coming from inside the house.
posted by youthenrage at 7:19 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 7:19 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
As semantic spaces are subject to ever greater chaos, attempting to build up counter-reactions will be fraught.
Critical media literacy approaches (e.g., PDF) offer one way of interrogating disinformation while preserving institutional critiques of power and systems of oppression, which disinformation tries to weaponize and neutralize.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:50 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Critical media literacy approaches (e.g., PDF) offer one way of interrogating disinformation while preserving institutional critiques of power and systems of oppression, which disinformation tries to weaponize and neutralize.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:50 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
I notice it online, anyone can,
It bears saying that a lot of people who think they can spot all disinfo all the time are among the likely targets
It's what we don't notice that should concern us
posted by elkevelvet at 8:06 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
It bears saying that a lot of people who think they can spot all disinfo all the time are among the likely targets
It's what we don't notice that should concern us
posted by elkevelvet at 8:06 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
Remember that time 45 replied to putin's murders with "‘You think our country is so innocent?". Some of y'all sound just like that.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:12 AM on March 19 [16 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:12 AM on March 19 [16 favorites]
(reposting from the Israel and the US thread) I still don't have new news on American disinfo, but if you like, here's Haaretz today: Israeli Influence Operation Targets U.S. Lawmakers on Hamas-UNRWA - Hundreds of fake accounts amplified three mysterious 'news sites' to advance Israeli interests. Their target: U.S. Democratic lawmakers
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
a lot of people who think they can spot all disinfo all the time are among the likely targets
For example, I sent this thread to a prolific and well educated sustainable agriculture activist, and their response was to dismiss the entire thing as disseminating globalist zionist propaganda in concert with the imperial NATO war machine. They personally believe in the forced dissolution of Israel, even as they insist they are immune to the influence of Putin.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:25 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
For example, I sent this thread to a prolific and well educated sustainable agriculture activist, and their response was to dismiss the entire thing as disseminating globalist zionist propaganda in concert with the imperial NATO war machine. They personally believe in the forced dissolution of Israel, even as they insist they are immune to the influence of Putin.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:25 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Israeli government disinformation is US disinformation IMO, and according to the Washington Post, using disinformation or a lack of information to defend Israel has been Biden administration policy for months now.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
is that most people don’t seem to make the leap that organizations like Brookings are doing the EXACT SAME SHIT they’re accusing Russia/Hamas/whoever of doing.
The question isn't about general influence in the media but specifically about undue influence in the media. Comparing Brookings to Putin only means we are under reporting Putin's secret influence by an order of magnitude.
posted by Brian B. at 8:39 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
The question isn't about general influence in the media but specifically about undue influence in the media. Comparing Brookings to Putin only means we are under reporting Putin's secret influence by an order of magnitude.
posted by Brian B. at 8:39 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Propaganda/disinformation works best when it draws on things that are real, like US racism or Israeli malfeasance, say, rather than things that are 100% fictional from scratch.
Yes, but the best way to defang such propaganda is to fix the situation, not complain about someone else making hay while the sun shines out of it.
posted by corb at 8:39 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
Yes, but the best way to defang such propaganda is to fix the situation, not complain about someone else making hay while the sun shines out of it.
posted by corb at 8:39 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
While the US has been engaging in efforts to destabilize and overthrow governments since basically forever, it seems to be worse at the more subtle approaches.
When the US engages in interference with foreign governments it seems to be most effective at giving money and weapons to right wing insurrectionists and not so good at disinformation. Or perhaps that's a deliberately cultivated image? But I kinda doubt it. 'Murca is a bit of a blunt insturment on the world stage.
I think it's also important to remember that while disinformation is real that Putin isn't some genius manipulator using near supervillain levels of management and control. He's a fucker with a bunch of trolls. I suspect he's not nearly as good at this as he would like to believe he is.
Plus there is one other thing: mostly disinfo only works when it's building on existing attitudes.
Convincing a group of people who are already xenophobic bigots with a strong nationalist streak that Evil Immigrants are coming to take their precious bodily fluids or whatever is fairly straightforward. Trying to convince people not already predisposed to that position is more difficult.
posted by sotonohito at 8:40 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
When the US engages in interference with foreign governments it seems to be most effective at giving money and weapons to right wing insurrectionists and not so good at disinformation. Or perhaps that's a deliberately cultivated image? But I kinda doubt it. 'Murca is a bit of a blunt insturment on the world stage.
I think it's also important to remember that while disinformation is real that Putin isn't some genius manipulator using near supervillain levels of management and control. He's a fucker with a bunch of trolls. I suspect he's not nearly as good at this as he would like to believe he is.
Plus there is one other thing: mostly disinfo only works when it's building on existing attitudes.
Convincing a group of people who are already xenophobic bigots with a strong nationalist streak that Evil Immigrants are coming to take their precious bodily fluids or whatever is fairly straightforward. Trying to convince people not already predisposed to that position is more difficult.
posted by sotonohito at 8:40 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
There's a certain international brand in Americans being doofuses. It's disarming.
Now your getting it.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Now your getting it.
posted by clavdivs at 8:48 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
As flawed as the Brookings Institute and other think tanks are, I don't think they're responsible for having Navalny poisoned then exiled to death, Nemtsov shot, assassinating defectors, or defenestrating potentially embarrassing targets.
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:56 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:56 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
Agreed. That's par of the course for the country and how they treat dissent.
Specific to the contention that Russia have an actual strategy beyond opportunism on the current Palestine stuff, meh.
posted by cendawanita at 9:05 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Specific to the contention that Russia have an actual strategy beyond opportunism on the current Palestine stuff, meh.
posted by cendawanita at 9:05 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
And that has implications on budgets and resources.
posted by cendawanita at 9:06 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:06 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
While the US has been engaging in efforts to destabilize and overthrow governments since basically forever, it seems to be worse at the more subtle approaches.
They should hire the social media managers for the Merriam-Webster, the Portland District US Army Corps of Engineers, and various state parks.
It's not like we don't have the talent.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:13 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
They should hire the social media managers for the Merriam-Webster, the Portland District US Army Corps of Engineers, and various state parks.
It's not like we don't have the talent.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:13 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
I feel like there's a reverse-survivor bias going on here. We don't know about (or can reasonably deny) any success with a 'more subtle approach'. We mostly know about the dramatic failures that blew up in our faces.
posted by whm at 9:23 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
posted by whm at 9:23 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
A really smart person to read about Russian state-sanctioned anti-Semitism, as well as about manipulation of the claim of anti-Semitism for pro-Israeli state ends, is Russian-American Jewish writer Masha Gessen, who has both been attacked by Russia and by supporters of Zionist ideology.
posted by latkes at 9:36 AM on March 19 [20 favorites]
posted by latkes at 9:36 AM on March 19 [20 favorites]
They’re trying to shape the info space towards their interest which is to get as close to war as possible with (for now) Russia and China in order to maximize money flowing towards the military industrial complex
I keep hearing things like this from people around me, and don't know what to make of it. War with Russia and China? Where exactly are these calls happening? For comparison we could look at the war on terror and its extremely explicit, constant, televised calls to violence. There's really nothing like that happening.
posted by mittens at 9:51 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
I keep hearing things like this from people around me, and don't know what to make of it. War with Russia and China? Where exactly are these calls happening? For comparison we could look at the war on terror and its extremely explicit, constant, televised calls to violence. There's really nothing like that happening.
posted by mittens at 9:51 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Comparing Brookings to Putin only means we are under reporting Putin's secret influence by an order of magnitude.
Brookings isn't operating alone, though, anymore than any one social media account working for Putin is. They are one part of a propaganda system designed to promote a particular neoconservative/neoliberal pro-US hegemony agenda.
As flawed as the Brookings Institute and other think tanks are, I don't think they're responsible for having Navalny poisoned then exiled to death, Nemtsov shot, assassinating defectors, or defenestrating potentially embarrassing targets.
Neither does Russia Today.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:54 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Brookings isn't operating alone, though, anymore than any one social media account working for Putin is. They are one part of a propaganda system designed to promote a particular neoconservative/neoliberal pro-US hegemony agenda.
As flawed as the Brookings Institute and other think tanks are, I don't think they're responsible for having Navalny poisoned then exiled to death, Nemtsov shot, assassinating defectors, or defenestrating potentially embarrassing targets.
Neither does Russia Today.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:54 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Remember that time 45 replied to putin's murders with "‘You think our country is so innocent?". Some of y'all sound just like that.
It is striking (but not very surprising) that you simply cannot have a conversation about Russian malfeasance on the internet without somebody, probably a few somebodies, trying to wrestle it into a conversation about American malfeasance. It's one thing to point out rightly that Russian disinformation plays on existing prejudices, bigotries, and patterns in American society and politics. It's another thing to come into that conversation and try to derail it with whataboutism about Brookings and "the US empire."
Like, even if you take at face value that both are equally bad, it's like charging into the middle of a conversation about cancer so you can say "what about heart disease, huh?"
posted by Method Man at 10:07 AM on March 19 [25 favorites]
It is striking (but not very surprising) that you simply cannot have a conversation about Russian malfeasance on the internet without somebody, probably a few somebodies, trying to wrestle it into a conversation about American malfeasance. It's one thing to point out rightly that Russian disinformation plays on existing prejudices, bigotries, and patterns in American society and politics. It's another thing to come into that conversation and try to derail it with whataboutism about Brookings and "the US empire."
Like, even if you take at face value that both are equally bad, it's like charging into the middle of a conversation about cancer so you can say "what about heart disease, huh?"
posted by Method Man at 10:07 AM on March 19 [25 favorites]
It is striking (but not very surprising) that you simply cannot have a conversation about Russian malfeasance on the internet without somebody, probably a few somebodies, trying to wrestle it into a conversation about American malfeasance.
It's because the issue is often framed and people often react as if this is some abberant behavior practiced by our enemies, and influencing people benighted enough to disagree with them.
It isn't. It is a tool used by every state that attempts to wield significant power outside its own borders, and it is very influential on mainstream US political opinion.
I think people are right to prevent that sort of misrepresentation of the situation. Especially given how appealing it seems to be for many to pretend otherwise.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:20 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
It's because the issue is often framed and people often react as if this is some abberant behavior practiced by our enemies, and influencing people benighted enough to disagree with them.
It isn't. It is a tool used by every state that attempts to wield significant power outside its own borders, and it is very influential on mainstream US political opinion.
I think people are right to prevent that sort of misrepresentation of the situation. Especially given how appealing it seems to be for many to pretend otherwise.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:20 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
It bears saying that a lot of people who think they can spot all disinfo all the time are among the likely targets
That's entirely fair, I should have said something different when I said that everyone can see Russian disinfo. What I should have said is that everyone experiences its effects; it poisons the discourse in a way that may be hard to pin down, but after exposure you do get the rash, the burning sensation, the feeling of malaise. It's out there and it's rubbish, and we practice good info hygiene by not spreading it. But it's not in itself what's killing us. It feeds on hunger and hatred already there.
posted by dmh at 10:33 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
That's entirely fair, I should have said something different when I said that everyone can see Russian disinfo. What I should have said is that everyone experiences its effects; it poisons the discourse in a way that may be hard to pin down, but after exposure you do get the rash, the burning sensation, the feeling of malaise. It's out there and it's rubbish, and we practice good info hygiene by not spreading it. But it's not in itself what's killing us. It feeds on hunger and hatred already there.
posted by dmh at 10:33 AM on March 19 [6 favorites]
That Wilson Center article in the OP is filled with so much bizarre right-wing garbage providing such ahistorical background along the lines of "Israel was close to a two-state solution...but then Hamas came into power and ruined it :(". It's genuinely no surprise when you look up the org you can see it's headed by a Republican ex-congressman and co-founder of the "Victory In Iraq" caucus.
Gotta admit it's pretty funny for a post about "disinformation" and "propaganda"!
posted by windbox at 10:39 AM on March 19 [21 favorites]
Gotta admit it's pretty funny for a post about "disinformation" and "propaganda"!
posted by windbox at 10:39 AM on March 19 [21 favorites]
Like, even if you take at face value that both are equally bad, it's like charging into the middle of a conversation about cancer so you can say "what about heart disease, huh?"
Exactly, and with the implication that we shouldn't be concerned with either. I suppose it works on some to imagine a tsunami effect in the information landscape and freely surrender their side to an adversary. Also noting that to pile on offenses in order to minimize them is tipping one's hand.
posted by Brian B. at 10:41 AM on March 19
Exactly, and with the implication that we shouldn't be concerned with either. I suppose it works on some to imagine a tsunami effect in the information landscape and freely surrender their side to an adversary. Also noting that to pile on offenses in order to minimize them is tipping one's hand.
posted by Brian B. at 10:41 AM on March 19
Exactly, and with the implication that we shouldn't be concerned with either. I suppose it works on some to imagine a tsunami effect in the information landscape and freely surrender their side to an adversary.
I don't think anybody who is concerned about American/"Western" propaganda in these comments is suggesting we shouldn't be concerned about it or authoritarian states' propaganda. That implication is I think read in unfairly.
I will say deciding one set of these manipulators is an adversary and the other isn't strikes me as a very different point of view from my own.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:47 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
I don't think anybody who is concerned about American/"Western" propaganda in these comments is suggesting we shouldn't be concerned about it or authoritarian states' propaganda. That implication is I think read in unfairly.
I will say deciding one set of these manipulators is an adversary and the other isn't strikes me as a very different point of view from my own.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:47 AM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Exactly, and with the implication that we shouldn't be concerned with either.
This is an assumption, and an awfully bad faith one at that. In fact, the whole idea that people here are disagreeing on Gaza because they're Russian plants rather than any concerns in preventing another Holocaust is flat-out bigotry and should be treated as such.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:49 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
This is an assumption, and an awfully bad faith one at that. In fact, the whole idea that people here are disagreeing on Gaza because they're Russian plants rather than any concerns in preventing another Holocaust is flat-out bigotry and should be treated as such.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:49 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
It's because the issue is often framed and people often react as if this is some abberant behavior practiced by our enemies, and influencing people benighted enough to disagree with them.
In fact, the whole idea that people here are disagreeing on Gaza because they're Russian plants rather than any concerns in preventing another Holocaust is flat-out bigotry and should be treated as such.
It's hard to buy these explanations for the knee-jerk need to make the conversation about America when nobody in this thread, so far as I can tell, has said that only Russia does these things or that America is innocent of them, and sure as hell nobody in this thread has said people disagree on Gaza because they're Russian plants.
posted by Method Man at 11:02 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
In fact, the whole idea that people here are disagreeing on Gaza because they're Russian plants rather than any concerns in preventing another Holocaust is flat-out bigotry and should be treated as such.
It's hard to buy these explanations for the knee-jerk need to make the conversation about America when nobody in this thread, so far as I can tell, has said that only Russia does these things or that America is innocent of them, and sure as hell nobody in this thread has said people disagree on Gaza because they're Russian plants.
posted by Method Man at 11:02 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
Lies are lies. Lies are not truth. Neither of these assertions' truth value is affected by whom is telling the lies.
The Russian government and their well-documented troll farms are liars; when they say true things those truths are deployed in the service of lies.
The equally well-documented fact that the US government does lies too (even if they are more and bigger super whopper lies) does not change the previous fact. If the US government started telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth from now on, that does not affect the truth value of their prior statements nor any statements of the Russian government.
Russians and Americans are not, by and large, more inclined to lie than anyone else. This is a governments thing, not a trait of populations. All governments lie a lot, and goverments are largely composed of people we would call "criminals" if laws were not specifically in place to insulate them from consequences. That is, in addition to lying, they are constantly criming. Governments steal, kill, extort and enslave, all the time, all over the world.
The fact that anyone believes differently is the result of successful propaganda.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:19 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
The Russian government and their well-documented troll farms are liars; when they say true things those truths are deployed in the service of lies.
The equally well-documented fact that the US government does lies too (even if they are more and bigger super whopper lies) does not change the previous fact. If the US government started telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but truth from now on, that does not affect the truth value of their prior statements nor any statements of the Russian government.
Russians and Americans are not, by and large, more inclined to lie than anyone else. This is a governments thing, not a trait of populations. All governments lie a lot, and goverments are largely composed of people we would call "criminals" if laws were not specifically in place to insulate them from consequences. That is, in addition to lying, they are constantly criming. Governments steal, kill, extort and enslave, all the time, all over the world.
The fact that anyone believes differently is the result of successful propaganda.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:19 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
Pointing out that the authors and organizations behind many of the links in the post are engaged in a real life hybrid of the Spider-Man pointing / hot dog man “we’re all trying to find the person who did this” memes and their reasons for doing so is fair game I think
posted by youthenrage at 11:26 AM on March 19 [17 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 11:26 AM on March 19 [17 favorites]
well, in older times it is seen, in general as the Soviets took a lie and bulit truth into it, whereas United States would start off with a truth and build it around lies.
truth is key here as opposed to facts because truth takes more energy to ascertain it's foundation in fact then mere common fact itself.
one example of this would be the planned and used orbital spy stations from the 1970s.
posted by clavdivs at 11:29 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
truth is key here as opposed to facts because truth takes more energy to ascertain it's foundation in fact then mere common fact itself.
one example of this would be the planned and used orbital spy stations from the 1970s.
posted by clavdivs at 11:29 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
It's hard to buy these explanations for the knee-jerk need to make the conversation about America when nobody in this thread, so far as I can tell, has said that only Russia does these things or that America is innocent of them, and sure as hell nobody in this thread has said people disagree on Gaza because they're Russian plants.
What do you propose is the actual motivation then?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:40 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
What do you propose is the actual motivation then?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:40 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Russians and Americans are not, by and large, more inclined to lie than anyone else. This is a governments thing, not a trait of populations. All governments lie a lot, and goverments are largely composed of people we would call "criminals" if laws were not specifically in place to insulate them from consequences.
There's a nihilistic binarism to this which is frustratingly commonplace. The argument serves no purpose other than to numb one into acceptance of the actions of the most hideous people on the planet. Putin wins with 99.8% of the vote BUT so what, Bush Jr. lied so the US is just as fake etc etc. Oh an activist got murdered on the street by spies using polonium? Sure BUT did you not know health insurance is hard to get in the US?
I don't get what the point is and why people repeat this kind of thing all the time. Half the internet is just a big senseless mind rabble that goes on and on and on.
posted by romanb at 11:48 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
There's a nihilistic binarism to this which is frustratingly commonplace. The argument serves no purpose other than to numb one into acceptance of the actions of the most hideous people on the planet. Putin wins with 99.8% of the vote BUT so what, Bush Jr. lied so the US is just as fake etc etc. Oh an activist got murdered on the street by spies using polonium? Sure BUT did you not know health insurance is hard to get in the US?
I don't get what the point is and why people repeat this kind of thing all the time. Half the internet is just a big senseless mind rabble that goes on and on and on.
posted by romanb at 11:48 AM on March 19 [11 favorites]
You can, and in fact should, hate both the US and Russian governments.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:50 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:50 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
You can, and in fact should, hate both the US and Russian governments.
Anarchism is the flat earth of politics.
posted by Brian B. at 11:53 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
Anarchism is the flat earth of politics.
posted by Brian B. at 11:53 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
Anarchism is the flat earth of politics.
You shouldn't have to be an anarchist to object to mass murder and slavery.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:55 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
You shouldn't have to be an anarchist to object to mass murder and slavery.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:55 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
You can, and in fact should, hate both the US and Russian governments.
The Russian government has repeatedly invaded multiple countries my family is from, facilitated ethnic cleansing and genocide, and continues to actively undermine their attempts to democratize. Two of those countries are former colonies that Russia, to this day, continues to exert imperialist power over. One of them was saved many years ago from the prospect of complete Russian annexation only by US action.
But I guess I'll just take your word for it that I should hate them both equally! Thanks for opening my eyes.
What do you propose is the actual motivation then?
I'm not sure. I think folks who reflexively feel the need to respond to criticism of Russia or to references to Russian imperialism/colonialism by bringing up America should question that impulse in themselves.
posted by Method Man at 11:56 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
The Russian government has repeatedly invaded multiple countries my family is from, facilitated ethnic cleansing and genocide, and continues to actively undermine their attempts to democratize. Two of those countries are former colonies that Russia, to this day, continues to exert imperialist power over. One of them was saved many years ago from the prospect of complete Russian annexation only by US action.
But I guess I'll just take your word for it that I should hate them both equally! Thanks for opening my eyes.
What do you propose is the actual motivation then?
I'm not sure. I think folks who reflexively feel the need to respond to criticism of Russia or to references to Russian imperialism/colonialism by bringing up America should question that impulse in themselves.
posted by Method Man at 11:56 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
I think folks who reflexively feel the need to respond to criticism of Russia or to references to Russian imperialism/colonialism by bringing up America should question that impulse in themselves.
Reflex is a good word for this and that's what this feels like.
In every post about the USA we should have a bot that jumps in with comments like "WELL in Russia elections are fake, soooo how about that!"
posted by romanb at 11:59 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Reflex is a good word for this and that's what this feels like.
In every post about the USA we should have a bot that jumps in with comments like "WELL in Russia elections are fake, soooo how about that!"
posted by romanb at 11:59 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
The Russian government has repeatedly invaded multiple countries my family is from, facilitated ethnic cleansing and genocide, and continues to actively undermine their attempts to democratize.
I'm sorry for what you have suffered, but many, many others can say the same thing about the US. This isn't a fight between a good guy and a bad guy. It is two amoral empires fighting for power, and whether they help you or crush you is entirely dependent on what benefits those in power.
I'm not sure. I think folks who reflexively feel the need to respond to criticism of Russia or to references to Russian imperialism/colonialism by bringing up America should question that impulse in themselves.
If you want to accuse people of being advocates for Russian imperialism, you could at least have enough respect to say it directly.
In every post about the USA we should have a bot that jumps in with comments like "WELL in Russia elections are fake, soooo how about that!"
I think that need is already well addressed by enthusiastic volunteers.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:04 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry for what you have suffered, but many, many others can say the same thing about the US. This isn't a fight between a good guy and a bad guy. It is two amoral empires fighting for power, and whether they help you or crush you is entirely dependent on what benefits those in power.
I'm not sure. I think folks who reflexively feel the need to respond to criticism of Russia or to references to Russian imperialism/colonialism by bringing up America should question that impulse in themselves.
If you want to accuse people of being advocates for Russian imperialism, you could at least have enough respect to say it directly.
In every post about the USA we should have a bot that jumps in with comments like "WELL in Russia elections are fake, soooo how about that!"
I think that need is already well addressed by enthusiastic volunteers.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:04 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
I don't get what the point is and why people repeat this kind of thing all the time.
Because cynicism demands no action.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:15 PM on March 19 [10 favorites]
Because cynicism demands no action.
posted by joannemerriam at 12:15 PM on March 19 [10 favorites]
There's a reason that Eastern Europe is objectively more committed to democracy than the slew of Western Europeans and Americans currently flirting with fascist authoritarianism. Eastern Europe has live under authoritarian rule. They know the difference. Maybe that's worth listening to, especially in an era of fragile democracy.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:16 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
posted by Violet Blue at 12:16 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
Because cynicism demands no action.
It isn't cynical to acknowledge the truth. It is cynical to ignore the truth when it makes your political stances uncomfortable.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:17 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
It isn't cynical to acknowledge the truth. It is cynical to ignore the truth when it makes your political stances uncomfortable.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:17 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I think that need is already well addressed by enthusiastic volunteers.
Not at all. There are people who complain about election meddling and that sort of thing. But what we don't have is people justifying US government actions because 'Russia is doing it too! Both are evil!'
That's a massive difference.
posted by romanb at 12:19 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Not at all. There are people who complain about election meddling and that sort of thing. But what we don't have is people justifying US government actions because 'Russia is doing it too! Both are evil!'
That's a massive difference.
posted by romanb at 12:19 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
If anyone is defending Russia here, please point them out.
A defense of Russian crimes would justify the levels of outrage being displayed.
All it took to provoke this response was pointing out that people here may have been influenced by propaganda and the that the US employs it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:22 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
A defense of Russian crimes would justify the levels of outrage being displayed.
All it took to provoke this response was pointing out that people here may have been influenced by propaganda and the that the US employs it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:22 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
If you want to accuse people of being advocates for Russian imperialism, you could at least have enough respect to say it directly.
If I wanted to "accuse people of being advocates for Russian imperialism" I would have done that.
There's a reason that Eastern Europe is objectively more committed to democracy than the slew of Western Europeans and Americans currently flirting with fascist authoritarianism. Eastern Europe has live under authoritarian rule. They know the difference. Maybe that's worth listening to, especially in an era of fragile democracy.
The same goes for Russia's former colonies in Asia. More Kyrgyz youth tell pollsters they support democracy than American youth. Armenians took to the streets to demand a more democratic government and brought down an autocrat while, if 2024 polls are any indication, American voters aren't sure if it's worth voting to keep a fascist out of power because the other guy's old. We know what it means to live under autocracy and how hard it is to fight for democracy (and for what it's worth, we've also had frontline seats to Russian disinformation for generations-- we know a thing or two about that, too).
posted by Method Man at 12:24 PM on March 19 [8 favorites]
If I wanted to "accuse people of being advocates for Russian imperialism" I would have done that.
There's a reason that Eastern Europe is objectively more committed to democracy than the slew of Western Europeans and Americans currently flirting with fascist authoritarianism. Eastern Europe has live under authoritarian rule. They know the difference. Maybe that's worth listening to, especially in an era of fragile democracy.
The same goes for Russia's former colonies in Asia. More Kyrgyz youth tell pollsters they support democracy than American youth. Armenians took to the streets to demand a more democratic government and brought down an autocrat while, if 2024 polls are any indication, American voters aren't sure if it's worth voting to keep a fascist out of power because the other guy's old. We know what it means to live under autocracy and how hard it is to fight for democracy (and for what it's worth, we've also had frontline seats to Russian disinformation for generations-- we know a thing or two about that, too).
posted by Method Man at 12:24 PM on March 19 [8 favorites]
Domestic US authoritarianism was not evenly distributed. But certain groups definitely lived under authoritarian rule and the threat of state violence much more recently than three centuries ago.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:33 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:33 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
All it took to provoke this response was pointing out that people here may have been influenced by propaganda and the that the US employs it.
The point was repeated over & over again without any actual engagement with the actual topic until the derail became the discussion. A classic example of Whataboutism.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:40 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
The point was repeated over & over again without any actual engagement with the actual topic until the derail became the discussion. A classic example of Whataboutism.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:40 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Whataboutism is employed as a defense. Do you genuinely think people here aren't pointing out the existence of US and western European propaganda because it is necessary to give context, or because it is far more of a problem for those of us living in those places, but just because they want to defend Vladimir Putin's government?
Because that seems both really offensive and honestly disconnected from reality.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:45 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Because that seems both really offensive and honestly disconnected from reality.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:45 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
I have no idea why people did it. Just that they did.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:47 PM on March 19
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:47 PM on March 19
I have no idea why people did it. Just that they did.
Then it isn't whataboutism, it is just people pointing out something that other people don't like to hear.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:49 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Then it isn't whataboutism, it is just people pointing out something that other people don't like to hear.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:49 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Well at least they're saying the quiet part out loud now.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:51 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:51 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
Then it isn't whataboutism, it is just people pointing out something that other people don't like to hear.
It absolutely is whataboutism. The thread was created to talk about Russian disinformation. A bunch of people came in and insisted on talking about American disinformation instead. The end result was the thread got derailed and now nobody is talking about Russian disinformation, which is the point of whataboutism-- to derail conversations so they stop being about the initial topic. Which is why it's such a favored tactic of Kremlin disinformation, and why it's so annoying when people on the internet, driven by what is often a sincere desire to talk about American transgressions, insist on doing it whenever Russian transgressions are talked about.
But hey, it worked. Thread successfully derailed.
posted by Method Man at 12:54 PM on March 19 [19 favorites]
It absolutely is whataboutism. The thread was created to talk about Russian disinformation. A bunch of people came in and insisted on talking about American disinformation instead. The end result was the thread got derailed and now nobody is talking about Russian disinformation, which is the point of whataboutism-- to derail conversations so they stop being about the initial topic. Which is why it's such a favored tactic of Kremlin disinformation, and why it's so annoying when people on the internet, driven by what is often a sincere desire to talk about American transgressions, insist on doing it whenever Russian transgressions are talked about.
But hey, it worked. Thread successfully derailed.
posted by Method Man at 12:54 PM on March 19 [19 favorites]
But hey, it worked. Thread successfully derailed.
The thread got derailed by a bunch of people getting defensive over the fact that people pointed out that these tactics are in use by some of the very elements linked in the post, and that that attempts to push the line that support for Gaza was a result of young people being led astray by sinister foreigners was, in fact, bullshit.
No one made any attempt to prevent anyone from talking about Russian crimes. In fact, much of the discussion of US abuses was in the context of discussing how they differed from Soviet and Russian versions of the same.
What did happen was that as soon as the US, Europe, or Israel were criticized, people began throwing veiled accusations and complaining they were being prevented from discussing the topic of the thread.
Sorry, but you can't discuss propaganda by unironically linking the US State Department and not expect people to point out the hypocrisy. You can't link to an article insinuating people opposed to genocide are all misled dupes, without those people getting offended.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:03 PM on March 19 [20 favorites]
The thread got derailed by a bunch of people getting defensive over the fact that people pointed out that these tactics are in use by some of the very elements linked in the post, and that that attempts to push the line that support for Gaza was a result of young people being led astray by sinister foreigners was, in fact, bullshit.
No one made any attempt to prevent anyone from talking about Russian crimes. In fact, much of the discussion of US abuses was in the context of discussing how they differed from Soviet and Russian versions of the same.
What did happen was that as soon as the US, Europe, or Israel were criticized, people began throwing veiled accusations and complaining they were being prevented from discussing the topic of the thread.
Sorry, but you can't discuss propaganda by unironically linking the US State Department and not expect people to point out the hypocrisy. You can't link to an article insinuating people opposed to genocide are all misled dupes, without those people getting offended.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:03 PM on March 19 [20 favorites]
Are Alex Jones and Steve Bannon working as Russian disinfo manure spreaders? Because they sure seem to be doing exactly that, especially the lying part.
posted by nofundy at 1:16 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
posted by nofundy at 1:16 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I don't know about Jones, but I am convinced Bannon has been on Putin's payroll since he left the Trump administration. Maybe before. He has spent the last half dozen years praising Russian imperialism in the guise of "realpolitik" and cozying up to every strongman and fascist available.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:21 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:21 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
A bunch of the links in the original post are to articles posted on the website of the STATE DEPARTMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. They are literally STATE PROPAGANDA. A bunch of the other links are posted on the websites of think tanks like Brookings, etc… organizations with the explicit goals of shaping the policy of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - propaganda parallel to the state? The post is ostensibly about Russian propaganda but the United States and it’s propaganda are the entire subtext of the post, so much so that I’ve wondered more than once since first reading it, if this was done subtly but intentionally. It’s not whataboutism to talk about this, it’s engaging with the post itself. Pointing out “hey the guys who wrote this post on Russian propaganda are ALSO PAID PROPAGANDISTS OF A RIVAL GOVERNMENT” is not whataboutism its fucking CONTEXT.
posted by youthenrage at 1:26 PM on March 19 [18 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 1:26 PM on March 19 [18 favorites]
There's a reason that Eastern Europe is objectively more committed to democracy than the slew of Western Europeans and Americans currently flirting with fascist authoritarianism.
This is Rumsfeld's "New Europe" all over again. The red-blooded Eastern Europeans, so much more vital and democratic than stuffy "Old Europe", with their compromised piffle about intractable conflict and the dangers of using military means to solve diplomatic problems.
It's hard to see how Eastern Europe is "objectively" more "committed to democracy" given that Poland is still struggling to recover from an 8 year stint of illiberalism, and both Hungary and Slovakia openly challenge EU style liberalism, and most of the support for Germany's far-right AfD still comes from what used to be East Germany. It might be simpler to argue the opposite, that it's the West that's catching up to Eastern European style nationalism and authoritarianism. Nothing shows commitment to democracy like CIA-run torture prisons.
posted by dmh at 1:37 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
This is Rumsfeld's "New Europe" all over again. The red-blooded Eastern Europeans, so much more vital and democratic than stuffy "Old Europe", with their compromised piffle about intractable conflict and the dangers of using military means to solve diplomatic problems.
It's hard to see how Eastern Europe is "objectively" more "committed to democracy" given that Poland is still struggling to recover from an 8 year stint of illiberalism, and both Hungary and Slovakia openly challenge EU style liberalism, and most of the support for Germany's far-right AfD still comes from what used to be East Germany. It might be simpler to argue the opposite, that it's the West that's catching up to Eastern European style nationalism and authoritarianism. Nothing shows commitment to democracy like CIA-run torture prisons.
posted by dmh at 1:37 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
So many arguments about 'WhatAboutIsm' are confusing to me. I get that is has a use case describing a specific behavior, like one country committing war crimes, being called out on it by another, then saying 'no, what about you!' as a reason to not change what they're doing.
I struggle when it's used internally though. I'm not convinced, and never will be, that it's a bad thing when my own government says 'Hey, those guys are evil because they did X', and I know for a fact that we did something nearly identical, and say 'If that's so evil, can we PLEASE stop doing it as well'. It doesn't mean 'don't hold the other party accountable'. And a lot of legitimate criticism of our own behavior gets written off as 'Whataboutism' almost reactively.
That's simply holding your own government accountable, which in a democracy is probably allowed. And if we have no argument other than 'but it's OK when we do it' that's beyond messed up.
posted by whm at 1:45 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
I struggle when it's used internally though. I'm not convinced, and never will be, that it's a bad thing when my own government says 'Hey, those guys are evil because they did X', and I know for a fact that we did something nearly identical, and say 'If that's so evil, can we PLEASE stop doing it as well'. It doesn't mean 'don't hold the other party accountable'. And a lot of legitimate criticism of our own behavior gets written off as 'Whataboutism' almost reactively.
That's simply holding your own government accountable, which in a democracy is probably allowed. And if we have no argument other than 'but it's OK when we do it' that's beyond messed up.
posted by whm at 1:45 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
To be fair, that comment ignores at least a half-dozen authoritarian regimes within living memory in both the US and Western Europe, including those of both Spain and Portugal, two of the westernmost countries in the continent.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:46 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:46 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, born on 7 October 1952, President of the Russian Federation, is allegedly responsible for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population (children) and that of unlawful transfer of population (children) from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation (under articles 8(2)(a)(vii) and 8(2)(b)(viii) of the Rome Statute).
Putin is a disgusting man who needs to sit behind bars.
posted by romanb at 2:12 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Putin is a disgusting man who needs to sit behind bars.
posted by romanb at 2:12 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
The United States, of course, never deports or steals children.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:24 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:24 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I did not have to wait long for that.
posted by romanb at 2:33 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
posted by romanb at 2:33 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
Putin is a disgusting man who needs to sit behind bars.
Putin is a criminal. I don't know what happens once he is gone. I am anxious to find out, there is no good path forward for Russia or its neighbors where Putin is still at large.
But I am concerned that he might ultimately be a replaceable cog. He is powerful, but his power rests on the consent of the oligarchs that empower him. I think any long term solution to Russia's dissent into fascism will have to involve dismantling their economic powerbase without throwing Russia into another horrific depression.
I don't know how to do that, short of a successful revolution by Russian socialists, which seems unthinkably far away right now.
The United States, of course, never deports or steals children.
Every American president also deserves prison. We should treat ICE like the SS after WWII, recognizing that all of them are complicit in atrocity.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:33 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
Putin is a criminal. I don't know what happens once he is gone. I am anxious to find out, there is no good path forward for Russia or its neighbors where Putin is still at large.
But I am concerned that he might ultimately be a replaceable cog. He is powerful, but his power rests on the consent of the oligarchs that empower him. I think any long term solution to Russia's dissent into fascism will have to involve dismantling their economic powerbase without throwing Russia into another horrific depression.
I don't know how to do that, short of a successful revolution by Russian socialists, which seems unthinkably far away right now.
The United States, of course, never deports or steals children.
Every American president also deserves prison. We should treat ICE like the SS after WWII, recognizing that all of them are complicit in atrocity.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:33 PM on March 19 [7 favorites]
Idk, let's be fair, what becomes not useful is immediately parrying on what Putin/Russia does with what the USA also it's doing. It's like when I share from disparate sources and immediately have to contend with those problematizing the sources rather than addressing the content--
--because stopped clock being right is an actual possibility.
But how could I say that right, being the first to find issues with a number of the links? Because I'm trying to communicate what's not passing the smell test for me. If only analysts' work is so easy by only checking the label of the source.
posted by cendawanita at 2:36 PM on March 19 [8 favorites]
--because stopped clock being right is an actual possibility.
But how could I say that right, being the first to find issues with a number of the links? Because I'm trying to communicate what's not passing the smell test for me. If only analysts' work is so easy by only checking the label of the source.
posted by cendawanita at 2:36 PM on March 19 [8 favorites]
The United States, of course, never deports or steals children.
This is the quintessential example of whataboutism. Functionally, it serves to deflect attention from and downplay the observation that Putin has been charged in the ICC. Geez louise, you can do better than this.
Just like it's possible to keep two ideas in one's head at once, it's possible to consider one bad thing (say, Putin's war crimes), and simultaneously have the knowledge that there is another bad thing (say, Trump's "lock the migrant children in cages" policy), without immediately whatabouting the two.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:37 PM on March 19 [17 favorites]
This is the quintessential example of whataboutism. Functionally, it serves to deflect attention from and downplay the observation that Putin has been charged in the ICC. Geez louise, you can do better than this.
Just like it's possible to keep two ideas in one's head at once, it's possible to consider one bad thing (say, Putin's war crimes), and simultaneously have the knowledge that there is another bad thing (say, Trump's "lock the migrant children in cages" policy), without immediately whatabouting the two.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:37 PM on March 19 [17 favorites]
I mean, one possible reason the US hasn't been charged in the ICC for our multiple very bad crimes against humanity is because we've made it clear that we'll invade the fucking Hague if we ever are?
There's so much American exceptionalism on Metafilter, and it's so bad. I'm a fucking American and it's obvious to me; it's frankly astonishing to me that anyone who isn't an American puts up with the site at all.
Russia is very bad! The US is also very bad! The badness is unevenly distributed but we have way more than our share of slavery, institutionalized child abuse, political prisoners, genocides, and propaganda!
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:42 PM on March 19 [8 favorites]
There's so much American exceptionalism on Metafilter, and it's so bad. I'm a fucking American and it's obvious to me; it's frankly astonishing to me that anyone who isn't an American puts up with the site at all.
Russia is very bad! The US is also very bad! The badness is unevenly distributed but we have way more than our share of slavery, institutionalized child abuse, political prisoners, genocides, and propaganda!
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:42 PM on March 19 [8 favorites]
And this bit about Putin/Russia by The Manwich Horror, which is absolutely true, is also true of the United States.
But I am concerned that he might ultimately be a replaceable cog. He is powerful, but his power rests on the consent of the oligarchs that empower him. I think any long term solution to Russia's dissent[sic] into fascism will have to involve dismantling their economic powerbase without throwing Russia into another horrific depression.posted by adrienneleigh at 2:45 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
So I'm an American leftist (I guess) who's been around the block many times, and I've slowly figured out that the only people who annoy me as much as the MAGA crowd are online dude leftists like those clowns from Chapo Trap House/TrueAnon/various X threads. One of the smartest things I ever did was tell a good RL friend that I didn't want to talk about politics with him ever again - my blood pressure went down and our friendship greatly improved. This thread is similar to a lot of our prior arguments. These dudes (and it's almost all dudes) love to pop in to say Russia had to invade Ukraine because of NATO, what about the Iraq war, people in China are super happy, African militias are heroically expelling colonialists, 9/11 was an inside job, I know who blew up the pipeline, I know who bombed the hospital, the deep state "won't let Bernie be president", "we do it too" ... it's fucking annoying, and also patronizing. As if I don't know the US has a terrible militaristic past and, to some extent, present, or that just like *every other country ever* we employ dubious means to be the #1 gosh-darn best country, or that capitalism causes a lot of problems. There's also no sense of proportion with these people, as if Putin murdering Navalny and holding a sham election is somehow just the same as it being hard to get the Jacobin ding-dong party on the ballot in Florida.
And these are people who live in the US. Like, if you're an adult, it's your fucking job to try to make things better here in the US where you actually live instead of dicking around on the internet and sending me RT retweets. Considering how angry I am with the state of corporate power, misinformation, right-wing think tanks, car and gun culture, the two-party system, Evangelicalism - the list goes on - it takes a *lot* for me to think "If you love Russia/China so much, why don't you move there?" but I've come close to saying it to a few people. Spoiler: IF they were in those places they'd be bitching even more, except they'd end up in a gulag or Chinese patriotic motherland camp.
This is not directed at any specific person in this thread - it's an observation that I have not had any more luck discussing rational solutions to social/political/financial issues with people on the left than with Trumpy workplace acquaintances. Everyone's picking an -ism and doing their own dubious research to prop it up. Double hate points for people who love to pop up with "secret knowledge" and see what I think about it. JESUS CHRIST WE KNOW ABOUT COINTELPRO AND THE CIA.
(I am also an atheist who finds most other atheists insufferable)
posted by caviar2d2 at 2:52 PM on March 19 [23 favorites]
And these are people who live in the US. Like, if you're an adult, it's your fucking job to try to make things better here in the US where you actually live instead of dicking around on the internet and sending me RT retweets. Considering how angry I am with the state of corporate power, misinformation, right-wing think tanks, car and gun culture, the two-party system, Evangelicalism - the list goes on - it takes a *lot* for me to think "If you love Russia/China so much, why don't you move there?" but I've come close to saying it to a few people. Spoiler: IF they were in those places they'd be bitching even more, except they'd end up in a gulag or Chinese patriotic motherland camp.
This is not directed at any specific person in this thread - it's an observation that I have not had any more luck discussing rational solutions to social/political/financial issues with people on the left than with Trumpy workplace acquaintances. Everyone's picking an -ism and doing their own dubious research to prop it up. Double hate points for people who love to pop up with "secret knowledge" and see what I think about it. JESUS CHRIST WE KNOW ABOUT COINTELPRO AND THE CIA.
(I am also an atheist who finds most other atheists insufferable)
posted by caviar2d2 at 2:52 PM on March 19 [23 favorites]
This is all extremely silly. To the comparison that the US had slavery which retains profound effects, you can easily say that Alexander III emancipated the serfs, and wind up in favour of Tsarism. This kind of relentless comparisonism robs any conversation about what is right and what should be done of any power.
If you want to talk about American exceptionalism, I’d offer as an observation that it’s very frustrating, as a citizen of neither the US nor Russia, for Americans to constantly downplay the real achievements of the oldest self governing republic, and not to see that the rest of the world really does draw a difference between the two places. One’s a democracy, the others a dictatorship. Some things are really very simple.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:54 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
If you want to talk about American exceptionalism, I’d offer as an observation that it’s very frustrating, as a citizen of neither the US nor Russia, for Americans to constantly downplay the real achievements of the oldest self governing republic, and not to see that the rest of the world really does draw a difference between the two places. One’s a democracy, the others a dictatorship. Some things are really very simple.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:54 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
We've a couple decades (at least) of being clearly in an environment, to refer to gwint's point, past when the baseline assumption is that at least the US machinery wraps their propa with at least a kernel of truth - in part because the legal and normative guardrails have weakened so much it's hard to make a generalisation that doesn't recognise how coopted the soft power propagandizing part of the American system is in service to state without acknowledging the democratic processes that are still alive (and I *am* speaking as a southeast asian who's not diaspora ie I'm living in the "periphery" where I noticed what's on the ground is of a different character and feature than what most Americans are used to, even those from more dissident backgrounds). It does make the ability to survey the quality of info being received to be extremely fraught. Within the space of this thread I don't believe there's space to conclude on how to get around this. I can't argue on morality because hey, imo, the only reason other countries are less bad is simply for want of opportunity. There's a reason why 1) non-Americans are still willing to caucus with Americans, even as 2) it's a treacherous ally.
My only *contention* for this FPP's argument is the 'airtime' being given to Palestine because Russia under Putin operates like an entity that believes the operational premise about great power politics and relations. Palestine is situationally opportunistic for Russia but I am making a claim here, based on past performance, that it's not a longterm track (yet). There is no real political affinity within their political class for Palestine either - not the least of which Islamic-based resistance is the ideological fodder for their separatists that's not yet been coopted by the Wagner Group architecture. This is extremely not what I would say for their long-term support of and being supported by Israel. I've also been arguing on budgeting like an accounting nerd for reason - informational warfare is still subject to the same conditions for logistics as anything else.
Budget is also where I'll agree why the think tank ecosystem is responding to how Palestine is a current policy black hole by making the argument that brings it in. But even the Brookings one (which is not the wall-eyed loon like the Wilson Center, which is still useful but you have to adjust your parameters) doesn't make the argument as so strongly as the FPP seems to think.
And I also know that it's been a critical plank to use Russia as a boogeyman to discredit Palestinian support and sympathy. We see this play out with China as well when it comes to banning tiktok - the energy didn't come until lobby money properly activated for it.
Always look for the money, I guess, is my one conclusion.
posted by cendawanita at 2:56 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
My only *contention* for this FPP's argument is the 'airtime' being given to Palestine because Russia under Putin operates like an entity that believes the operational premise about great power politics and relations. Palestine is situationally opportunistic for Russia but I am making a claim here, based on past performance, that it's not a longterm track (yet). There is no real political affinity within their political class for Palestine either - not the least of which Islamic-based resistance is the ideological fodder for their separatists that's not yet been coopted by the Wagner Group architecture. This is extremely not what I would say for their long-term support of and being supported by Israel. I've also been arguing on budgeting like an accounting nerd for reason - informational warfare is still subject to the same conditions for logistics as anything else.
Budget is also where I'll agree why the think tank ecosystem is responding to how Palestine is a current policy black hole by making the argument that brings it in. But even the Brookings one (which is not the wall-eyed loon like the Wilson Center, which is still useful but you have to adjust your parameters) doesn't make the argument as so strongly as the FPP seems to think.
And I also know that it's been a critical plank to use Russia as a boogeyman to discredit Palestinian support and sympathy. We see this play out with China as well when it comes to banning tiktok - the energy didn't come until lobby money properly activated for it.
Always look for the money, I guess, is my one conclusion.
posted by cendawanita at 2:56 PM on March 19 [6 favorites]
I wasn't talking about the US' past history of slavery. I was talking about our present practice of slavery, most of it in the form of prison labor.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:58 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:58 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I wasn't talking about the US' past history of slavery. I was talking about our present practice of slavery, most of it in the form of prison labor.
Then that's an even dumber whataboutism, given Russia's own gulag/prison system. These just aren't the zingers you think they are, but congratulations on thoroughly derailing the conversation. As a tactic, it still definitely works and I'm the world's biggest sucker for playing along.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:18 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Then that's an even dumber whataboutism, given Russia's own gulag/prison system. These just aren't the zingers you think they are, but congratulations on thoroughly derailing the conversation. As a tactic, it still definitely works and I'm the world's biggest sucker for playing along.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:18 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Even then the comparisonism of prison to prison society fails, and serves to elude the genuine differences. The US has an extensive prison industrial complex. It does not yet offer pardons at a mass scale, to inmates willing to join storm-Z units for meat infantry attacks. The rest of the world really does draw a distinction here.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:20 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:20 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Please note that i did not say "more than Russia". I said "more than our share".
Two things can both be very bad.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:26 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Two things can both be very bad.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:26 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
If you want to talk about American exceptionalism, I’d offer as an observation that it’s very frustrating, as a citizen of neither the US nor Russia, for Americans to constantly downplay the real achievements of the oldest self governing republic, and not to see that the rest of the world really does draw a difference between the two places.
I think it might be a bit broad to say the rest of the world sees it that way. France and Vietnam both have long, complex histories with the US and Russia but I imagine the populations of the two countries have very different associations with each. (And neither would be wholly positive or negative in either case.) A Chilean and a Pole have likely had very different experiences informing their opinion of what US or Soviet power meant. For a white man like myself, the US is far more comfortable, safer, and far freer than Russia. But in terms of how they effect the larger world, both are horrible. Both have shed oceans of blood to secure their empires, and both employ armies of paid liars to manipulate public opinion.
This is emphatically not a reason to ignore Russian crimes. But it is grounds to treat American plans and American proxies with a great deal of skepticism. Sometimes, like with support for Ukraine, US interests and human rights overlap. In other cases, like support for the Khmer Rouge, they do not.
(Also San Marino and the Netherlands might quibble about the oldest republic bit.)
With regards to the subject of this thread, you have a great example of a US proxy using the reality of Russian propaganda to portray anti-fascist positions as the result of outside manipulations, casting support for Gazans under threat of genocide as an unamerican, subversive idea that can be discarded as a trick of the enemy. And at the same time Russia genuinely is producing propaganda about the situation in Gaza. The US is happy to engage in pro-Ukrainian propaganda, which does nothing to delegitimize the Ukrainian cause.
And sadly some people respond to recognizing propaganda by deciding it is all false. If Zelensky were a fascist and Ukrainians of Russian descent were in danger, the reporting we see in the US would look largely the same. The US funneling arms and money to a far right government is a familiar, comfortable narrative, and so those folks are soft targets for Russian propaganda. I know my knee jerk reaction was to disbelieve the US line, especially when I caught them papering over real issues. Confirmatuon bias is a hell of a thing.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:02 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
I think it might be a bit broad to say the rest of the world sees it that way. France and Vietnam both have long, complex histories with the US and Russia but I imagine the populations of the two countries have very different associations with each. (And neither would be wholly positive or negative in either case.) A Chilean and a Pole have likely had very different experiences informing their opinion of what US or Soviet power meant. For a white man like myself, the US is far more comfortable, safer, and far freer than Russia. But in terms of how they effect the larger world, both are horrible. Both have shed oceans of blood to secure their empires, and both employ armies of paid liars to manipulate public opinion.
This is emphatically not a reason to ignore Russian crimes. But it is grounds to treat American plans and American proxies with a great deal of skepticism. Sometimes, like with support for Ukraine, US interests and human rights overlap. In other cases, like support for the Khmer Rouge, they do not.
(Also San Marino and the Netherlands might quibble about the oldest republic bit.)
With regards to the subject of this thread, you have a great example of a US proxy using the reality of Russian propaganda to portray anti-fascist positions as the result of outside manipulations, casting support for Gazans under threat of genocide as an unamerican, subversive idea that can be discarded as a trick of the enemy. And at the same time Russia genuinely is producing propaganda about the situation in Gaza. The US is happy to engage in pro-Ukrainian propaganda, which does nothing to delegitimize the Ukrainian cause.
And sadly some people respond to recognizing propaganda by deciding it is all false. If Zelensky were a fascist and Ukrainians of Russian descent were in danger, the reporting we see in the US would look largely the same. The US funneling arms and money to a far right government is a familiar, comfortable narrative, and so those folks are soft targets for Russian propaganda. I know my knee jerk reaction was to disbelieve the US line, especially when I caught them papering over real issues. Confirmatuon bias is a hell of a thing.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:02 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
There's a nihilistic binarism to this which is frustratingly commonplace.
There isn't a "nihilistic binarism" to pointing out that governments are not the same as populations, as in the specific sentence you quoted:
Russians and Americans are not, by and large, more inclined to lie than anyone else. This is a governments thing, not a trait of populations. All governments lie a lot, and goverments are largely composed of people we would call "criminals" if laws were not specifically in place to insulate them from consequences.
In what way is the "binarism" of governments vs. populations nihilistic? Do you believe that governments and their subject populations are identical, in the USA or in Russia or elsewhere? Does the proposition that these are not identical annihilate the meaning of life somehow?
The fact that the USA is bad sometimes does not invalidate the fact that other countries are also sometimes bad. If you disagree, perhaps you could explain your reasoning behind that.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 4:10 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
There isn't a "nihilistic binarism" to pointing out that governments are not the same as populations, as in the specific sentence you quoted:
Russians and Americans are not, by and large, more inclined to lie than anyone else. This is a governments thing, not a trait of populations. All governments lie a lot, and goverments are largely composed of people we would call "criminals" if laws were not specifically in place to insulate them from consequences.
In what way is the "binarism" of governments vs. populations nihilistic? Do you believe that governments and their subject populations are identical, in the USA or in Russia or elsewhere? Does the proposition that these are not identical annihilate the meaning of life somehow?
The fact that the USA is bad sometimes does not invalidate the fact that other countries are also sometimes bad. If you disagree, perhaps you could explain your reasoning behind that.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 4:10 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
This discussion thread should win an award for most derails (with some insightful comments mixed in).
Despite the fact that we don't really have Putinites or Putin-bots here on MetaFilter, Putin has succeeded in spreading confusion even here. Which doesn't mean that he's invincible. It just means that we all still have lots of work to do.
(I think the top post has some good sources and some questionable sources, but I'd like to just re-iterate the ICCT article).
posted by ovvl at 4:36 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Despite the fact that we don't really have Putinites or Putin-bots here on MetaFilter, Putin has succeeded in spreading confusion even here. Which doesn't mean that he's invincible. It just means that we all still have lots of work to do.
(I think the top post has some good sources and some questionable sources, but I'd like to just re-iterate the ICCT article).
posted by ovvl at 4:36 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
You mean to tell me Russia is a failed state of degenerates and criminals, desperately trying to cling to some kind of relevance before their filthy worthless shit country slips under the waves of Time forever, remembered only as a cautionary tale if they are remembered at all?
Dang!
Horrifying fascist rhetoric, down to the use of "degenerates." Only "dang" differentiates this from an excerpt from Hitler's dinner-table transcripts. We only need to kick in Russia's door and the whole degenerate rotten shitheap will come crashing down!
Shocking but not surprising that such a statement is tolerated here. It wouldn't be tolerated about Israel, Palestine, or the USA* but when a country is the universally-designated Bad Guy the hardest-core liberals show their true colors and the moderate liberals stand by.
*despite being an equally accurate descriptor of 2 out of oops almost did a dang ol whataboutism
posted by Coeliac McCarthy at 4:51 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
Accusing people of doing Putin's work because you believe they're all stupid children who are doing evil accidentally instead of on purpose, just because they're disagreeing with you, does not make the accusations any better or provide any sort of moral high ground.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:01 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:01 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
This discussion thread should win an award for most derails (with some insightful comments mixed in).
The funny thing is that everyone here will agree with this sentence, but with quite different ideas of which comments are insightful and which are derails.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:09 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
The funny thing is that everyone here will agree with this sentence, but with quite different ideas of which comments are insightful and which are derails.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:09 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
My milquetoast contribution to the debate—it is entirely possible for multiple things to be true:
1. Russian disinformation has made use of the situation in Gaza to its disadvantage. Perhaps it has swayed people to be more critical of Israel and the US—at the very least, it is fanning the flames of domestic discontent within the latter.
2. US disinformation has done similarly (perhaps without the end goal of exacerbating domestic disturbances).
3. In either case, it is entirely possible for people to have reached conclusions broadly mirroring either the Russian or American positions without having been duped by their respective propaganda outlet.
The question then becomes: is it incumbent on these good-faith partisans on either side to grapple with and dispute disinformation campaigns that would otherwise support their position? Here's where I think the strongest case can be made for the US stuff as something other than a derail: it seems hypocritical to expect pro-Palestinian advocates to disavow "allied" disinformation campaigns if we don't expect the same from pro-Israel advocates. (That said, the thread hasn't exactly instilled confidence in me that many people have the will to engage in this sort of housekeeping.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 5:15 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
1. Russian disinformation has made use of the situation in Gaza to its disadvantage. Perhaps it has swayed people to be more critical of Israel and the US—at the very least, it is fanning the flames of domestic discontent within the latter.
2. US disinformation has done similarly (perhaps without the end goal of exacerbating domestic disturbances).
3. In either case, it is entirely possible for people to have reached conclusions broadly mirroring either the Russian or American positions without having been duped by their respective propaganda outlet.
The question then becomes: is it incumbent on these good-faith partisans on either side to grapple with and dispute disinformation campaigns that would otherwise support their position? Here's where I think the strongest case can be made for the US stuff as something other than a derail: it seems hypocritical to expect pro-Palestinian advocates to disavow "allied" disinformation campaigns if we don't expect the same from pro-Israel advocates. (That said, the thread hasn't exactly instilled confidence in me that many people have the will to engage in this sort of housekeeping.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 5:15 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I dunno, you’ve got people who agree with the USian/Liberal/Western Propaganda line making their arguments, many of them invoking the straw people who supposedly support the Russian/Anti Western propaganda line and then you’ve got people who see both Western and Russian sources disseminating propaganda. Pretty deep in the thread the stuff about prison culture and some intentionally dangled bait might be slightly derailed but most of the comments seem to reflected or react directly to the post.
PS: if anybody is even still on here, read the WSJ article linked in the initial write up as indoctrination (and the comments on it, unless you have a weak stomach or low tolerance for insanity.) and tell me nobody is trying to stir up domestic (USian) discontent.
posted by youthenrage at 5:20 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
PS: if anybody is even still on here, read the WSJ article linked in the initial write up as indoctrination (and the comments on it, unless you have a weak stomach or low tolerance for insanity.) and tell me nobody is trying to stir up domestic (USian) discontent.
posted by youthenrage at 5:20 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
In what way is the "binarism" of governments vs. populations nihilistic?
The binarism in the quote is that government = bad, people = good. Nihilistic because government = bad no matter the degree of the lie or the level of corruption in the system: there's nothing worth saving.
posted by romanb at 5:45 PM on March 19
The binarism in the quote is that government = bad, people = good. Nihilistic because government = bad no matter the degree of the lie or the level of corruption in the system: there's nothing worth saving.
posted by romanb at 5:45 PM on March 19
Putin spreading confusion has (mostly) won on MetaFilter here tonight.
posted by ovvl at 6:15 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 6:15 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
and tell me nobody is trying to stir up domestic (USian) discontent.
Looks boilerplate to me. I don't think you'll find enough westerners to honestly say that stirring up discontent is not normal, but at least it usually and freely admits its viewpoint rather than cagey denials. Most people also know what a missionary does, and that they only create doubts about other religions and are very much indoctrinated to that process. Politics, though, is a paid gig.
posted by Brian B. at 6:20 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Looks boilerplate to me. I don't think you'll find enough westerners to honestly say that stirring up discontent is not normal, but at least it usually and freely admits its viewpoint rather than cagey denials. Most people also know what a missionary does, and that they only create doubts about other religions and are very much indoctrinated to that process. Politics, though, is a paid gig.
posted by Brian B. at 6:20 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Putin spreading confusion has (mostly) won on MetaFilter here tonight.
lol oh come the fuck on
posted by windbox at 6:29 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
lol oh come the fuck on
posted by windbox at 6:29 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
Yea, I think most of us don't think Putin is great.
"But, the USA is bad too"
We get that, but both sides...?
posted by Windopaene at 6:41 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
"But, the USA is bad too"
We get that, but both sides...?
posted by Windopaene at 6:41 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
of course Putin must be enjoying this thread - free publicity, and even get to burnish unearned cred for being such a grandmaster. American own goal (supporting a country's bad intelligence to violent ends - as reported by Washington Post, known Russian plant) leading to the American public being split enough it's an electoral risk is somehow due to the machinations of Putin.
posted by cendawanita at 6:42 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:42 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
tell me nobody is trying to stir up domestic (USian) discontent.
I guess I'll say that, at least on the basis of the linked article? To be clear: I think there's a real distinction to be drawn between trying to enforce a policy position (and stir up discontent in the process) and trying to stir up discontent (and enforce a policy position in the process). The US government's goals—with respect to domestic politics, at least—seem more clearly aligned with the former than the latter.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:50 PM on March 19
I guess I'll say that, at least on the basis of the linked article? To be clear: I think there's a real distinction to be drawn between trying to enforce a policy position (and stir up discontent in the process) and trying to stir up discontent (and enforce a policy position in the process). The US government's goals—with respect to domestic politics, at least—seem more clearly aligned with the former than the latter.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:50 PM on March 19
Why no sympathy for the Uighur, or criticism of the Chinese? Where's the love for Ukraine, or criticism of Russia?
Just lots of Russian rationalization, American disdain, Palestinian empathy and criticism for the Jews. What are Putin's goals here? Hmm. Let's see: to invoke anti-semitism to fit almost any situation, to attack a sovereign country without interference, to encourage rightward swings in Europe and America.
posted by Violet Blue at 7:19 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Just lots of Russian rationalization, American disdain, Palestinian empathy and criticism for the Jews. What are Putin's goals here? Hmm. Let's see: to invoke anti-semitism to fit almost any situation, to attack a sovereign country without interference, to encourage rightward swings in Europe and America.
posted by Violet Blue at 7:19 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
What is to be done about this glut of Palestinian empathy
posted by Coeliac McCarthy at 7:22 PM on March 19 [16 favorites]
posted by Coeliac McCarthy at 7:22 PM on March 19 [16 favorites]
Uyghurs and China's treatment of them is part of this thread?
posted by cendawanita at 7:25 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:25 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
Putin's principal end goal has always been that the average person, no matter where they are in the world, draws a moral equivalence between Russia and America-- that their first thought when they hear about something terrible Russia did is not "that's awful, how do we stop it?" but "America does it too." I suppose in that sense, yeah, there'd be a smile on his face if he read this thread (which seems unlikely, but hey, MetaFilter brings some interesting characters together).
Personally, I do think that the best thing America can do to take the wind out of Putin's sails when he tries to put that moral equivalence into people's heads is simply to be better-- to do right by the people it has historically done wrong by, both within and outside its borders, to be a better country and a better global neighbor. Arguing on the internet, though it's fun and I'm sure all of us look back on our internet arguments and find them time well spent, isn't one hundredth as effective. But (and I guess this is why I found myself arguing anyway) I also think:
1. It does indeed help the Putin regime when people, typically westerners or Americans themselves, respond to discussions about Russia's crimes by bringing up America's. Not in a big way, I don't think The Manwich Horror is, like, single-handedly propping up Russian imperialism (Manwich, if it turns out you're a Kremlin agent and it actually is your job to prop up Russian imperialism, I apologize for offering such a scathing assessment of your talents-- I promise it's nothing personal). But Russia does invest quite a bit in efforts to derail any conversation about its malfeasance by turning it into a conversation about American malfeasance, so I doubt they're unhappy if people on the internet are willing to do it for free. This is not to say that we should never talk about America's mistakes, sins, crimes, and assorted miscreancy-- we absolutely should. We have to. It's the only way we avoid making the same mistakes, sins, crimes, and assorted miscreancy in the future. But I wish people were more thoughtful about when that conversation happens. Not to borrow my own analogy, but it really does feel like interrupting a conversation about cancer because I'm sorry, are you saying heart disease isn't bad too? No, we're not, we're just trying to talk about cancer, and you're making it harder to have that conversation.
2. If America started being a paragon of virtue this very minute and continued to be one for the next fifty years, in 2074 Russia would still be actively being terrible and yet you would still have people on the internet who feel the need to respond to criticisms of Russia with "but America used to do it too!" I believe that sincerely, although sadly America doesn't seem to be on the cusp of becoming a paragon and we don't seem likely to be able to test the hypothesis any time soon.
3. Even bearing those points in mind, fundamentally, America and Russia are not the same amount of bad. They're not even about the same amount of bad. Maybe I'm alone in holding that view, but it's just not one I'm going to be parted from. America has a lot of problems and we have done some appalling things to our own people and to others', but certainly in this moment, and I think also in the long view of history, it's not at all comparable to the unimaginable abuse to which Russian regimes-- whether in the form of the Tsar, the General Secretary, or the President-- have almost without fail subjected their own citizens and the citizens of any country unfortunate enough to be around them (or, by virtue of colonialism, within their borders).
Anyway, that's my last piece on this, a probably way too long ramble that's only tangentially related to the subject of the thread. Sorry!
posted by Method Man at 7:25 PM on March 19 [12 favorites]
Personally, I do think that the best thing America can do to take the wind out of Putin's sails when he tries to put that moral equivalence into people's heads is simply to be better-- to do right by the people it has historically done wrong by, both within and outside its borders, to be a better country and a better global neighbor. Arguing on the internet, though it's fun and I'm sure all of us look back on our internet arguments and find them time well spent, isn't one hundredth as effective. But (and I guess this is why I found myself arguing anyway) I also think:
1. It does indeed help the Putin regime when people, typically westerners or Americans themselves, respond to discussions about Russia's crimes by bringing up America's. Not in a big way, I don't think The Manwich Horror is, like, single-handedly propping up Russian imperialism (Manwich, if it turns out you're a Kremlin agent and it actually is your job to prop up Russian imperialism, I apologize for offering such a scathing assessment of your talents-- I promise it's nothing personal). But Russia does invest quite a bit in efforts to derail any conversation about its malfeasance by turning it into a conversation about American malfeasance, so I doubt they're unhappy if people on the internet are willing to do it for free. This is not to say that we should never talk about America's mistakes, sins, crimes, and assorted miscreancy-- we absolutely should. We have to. It's the only way we avoid making the same mistakes, sins, crimes, and assorted miscreancy in the future. But I wish people were more thoughtful about when that conversation happens. Not to borrow my own analogy, but it really does feel like interrupting a conversation about cancer because I'm sorry, are you saying heart disease isn't bad too? No, we're not, we're just trying to talk about cancer, and you're making it harder to have that conversation.
2. If America started being a paragon of virtue this very minute and continued to be one for the next fifty years, in 2074 Russia would still be actively being terrible and yet you would still have people on the internet who feel the need to respond to criticisms of Russia with "but America used to do it too!" I believe that sincerely, although sadly America doesn't seem to be on the cusp of becoming a paragon and we don't seem likely to be able to test the hypothesis any time soon.
3. Even bearing those points in mind, fundamentally, America and Russia are not the same amount of bad. They're not even about the same amount of bad. Maybe I'm alone in holding that view, but it's just not one I'm going to be parted from. America has a lot of problems and we have done some appalling things to our own people and to others', but certainly in this moment, and I think also in the long view of history, it's not at all comparable to the unimaginable abuse to which Russian regimes-- whether in the form of the Tsar, the General Secretary, or the President-- have almost without fail subjected their own citizens and the citizens of any country unfortunate enough to be around them (or, by virtue of colonialism, within their borders).
Anyway, that's my last piece on this, a probably way too long ramble that's only tangentially related to the subject of the thread. Sorry!
posted by Method Man at 7:25 PM on March 19 [12 favorites]
Americans definitely have no mental framework to think about and live with propaganda and influence campaigns that's for sure.
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 PM on March 19 [16 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 PM on March 19 [16 favorites]
Americans definitely have no mental framework to think about and live with propaganda and influence campaigns that's for sure.
Innocence is valued, a feature not a bug. Most Americans are shocked that Putin yanks the horns out of living deer to treat his chronic disease. Not for his mental illness though, the blood one.
posted by Brian B. at 7:41 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Innocence is valued, a feature not a bug. Most Americans are shocked that Putin yanks the horns out of living deer to treat his chronic disease. Not for his mental illness though, the blood one.
posted by Brian B. at 7:41 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Americans definitely have no mental framework to think about and live with propaganda and influence campaigns that's for sure.
I had a whole comment typed up arguing with you on this. But, just based on reading a bunch of the comments here, I'd 100% believe you. So...
posted by Dip Flash at 7:43 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
I had a whole comment typed up arguing with you on this. But, just based on reading a bunch of the comments here, I'd 100% believe you. So...
posted by Dip Flash at 7:43 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Just lots of Russian rationalization, American disdain, Palestinian empathy and criticism for the Jews. What are Putin's goals here? Hmm. Let's see: to invoke anti-semitism to fit almost any situation, to attack a sovereign country without interference, to encourage rightward swings in Europe and America.
"The Jews" aren't committing war crimes in Gaza, the IDF and the Israeli government are committing atrocities. Conflating them with "the Jews" is actually anti-Semitic.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:56 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
"The Jews" aren't committing war crimes in Gaza, the IDF and the Israeli government are committing atrocities. Conflating them with "the Jews" is actually anti-Semitic.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:56 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
Just lots of Russian rationalization, American disdain, Palestinian empathy and criticism for the Jews.
What the fuck are you talking about? Russian rationalization where? Criticism for the "the Jews" where? Seriously what are you on about
posted by windbox at 7:59 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
What the fuck are you talking about? Russian rationalization where? Criticism for the "the Jews" where? Seriously what are you on about
posted by windbox at 7:59 PM on March 19 [11 favorites]
What the fuck are you talking about?
Maybe RTFA — or two?
@ The Manwich Horror
Likewise.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:08 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Maybe RTFA — or two?
@ The Manwich Horror
Likewise.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:08 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Russian rationalization where?
In a free and open society avoiding the point is more telling than anything, because nobody relies on the government to decide. They unwittingly identify themselves as complicit.
posted by Brian B. at 8:10 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
In a free and open society avoiding the point is more telling than anything, because nobody relies on the government to decide. They unwittingly identify themselves as complicit.
posted by Brian B. at 8:10 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Likewise.
If this is a bit, I'm not getting it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:12 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
If this is a bit, I'm not getting it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:12 PM on March 19 [4 favorites]
What is to be done about this glut of Palestinian empathy
I mean that's pretty transparently the actual point of this post
posted by windbox at 8:25 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
I mean that's pretty transparently the actual point of this post
posted by windbox at 8:25 PM on March 19 [14 favorites]
Give me a fucking break, the point of the post was to show how Putin uses (and how Russia has used for over a century) world events as propaganda tools to sow discord amongst his perceived enemies. And boy did Metafilter get 0wned.
posted by gwint at 8:59 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
posted by gwint at 8:59 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
gwint: i don't know if you're aware, but we're not required to ignore people's contributions in other threads when determining their intent and good faith. Which is to say, windbox is absolutely correct about the actual point of this post.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:45 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:45 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
I thought we *were* required to ignore contributions in other threads, and that was the only way this thread would come across as neutral and even-handed to anyone.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:54 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:54 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
*shrug* That might matter if i were interested in being neutral or even-handed, i suppose.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:58 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:58 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
the point of the post was to show how Putin uses (and how Russia has used for over a century) world events as propaganda tools to sow discord amongst his perceived enemies.
Given the heated exchanges about attempts to downplay the genocide in Gaza here recently, I don't think it is an especially wild notion that someone linking reports about how pro-Palestinian teachers are "indoctrinating" students, and how Putin is using propaganda to turn people against Israel might be making some commentary on the legitimacy of support for the people of Gaza rather than discussing Russian propaganda generally. Especially when several of the articles make no mention of Russia, but just vague "disinformation" about the ongoing conflict. And when they have to go far afield enough to be invoking the Wilson Center and the Brookings Institute on MetaFilter. (Not to mention the US State Department!)
That they later complain about "Palestinian empathy and criticism for the Jews" makes that reading even harder to refute.
Perhaps that is incorrect and this is genuinely an unrelated meditation on Putin's manipulation of public opinion, but you can hardly fault someone for thinking otherwise.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:01 PM on March 19 [10 favorites]
Given the heated exchanges about attempts to downplay the genocide in Gaza here recently, I don't think it is an especially wild notion that someone linking reports about how pro-Palestinian teachers are "indoctrinating" students, and how Putin is using propaganda to turn people against Israel might be making some commentary on the legitimacy of support for the people of Gaza rather than discussing Russian propaganda generally. Especially when several of the articles make no mention of Russia, but just vague "disinformation" about the ongoing conflict. And when they have to go far afield enough to be invoking the Wilson Center and the Brookings Institute on MetaFilter. (Not to mention the US State Department!)
That they later complain about "Palestinian empathy and criticism for the Jews" makes that reading even harder to refute.
Perhaps that is incorrect and this is genuinely an unrelated meditation on Putin's manipulation of public opinion, but you can hardly fault someone for thinking otherwise.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:01 PM on March 19 [10 favorites]
The Russian state strategically and frequently uses propaganda with the intent of manipulating their own citizens and to attempt to win power on the world stage. The Russian state is antisemitic and amplifies antisemitic tropes toward its own cynical ends. These are factual statements that nobody on on this thread disputes.
There's no rule on metafilter.com that says comments should be limited to affirming the poster's intended message though. I already agree that Putin is terrible and doing terrible things. But the point of posts is to have conversations.
posted by latkes at 10:11 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
There's no rule on metafilter.com that says comments should be limited to affirming the poster's intended message though. I already agree that Putin is terrible and doing terrible things. But the point of posts is to have conversations.
posted by latkes at 10:11 PM on March 19 [5 favorites]
Putin condemned for saying Jews may have manipulated U.S. election
Jewish groups and U.S. lawmakers condemned Russian President Vladimir Putin’s suggestion that the 2016 U.S. presidential election may have been manipulated by Russian Jews.posted by romanb at 11:24 PM on March 19
Putin’s remarks came during a long and occasionally surreal interview with NBC News on Saturday, in which he speculated that nearly anyone other than the Russian government could have been behind a program to disrupt the election. U.S. intelligence agencies believe Putin ordered the effort to undermine faith in the U.S. election and help elect Donald Trump as president.
“Maybe they’re not even Russians,” Putin told Megyn Kelly, referring to who might have been behind the election interference. “Maybe they’re Ukrainian, Tatars, Jews — just with Russian citizenship.”
"The really dangerous American fascist... is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power... They claim to be super-patriots, but they would destroy every liberty guaranteed by the Constitution. They demand free enterprise, but are the spokesmen for monopoly and vested interest. Their final objective, toward which all their deceit is directed, is to capture political power so that, using the power of the state and the power of the market simultaneously, they may keep the common man in eternal subjection."
Henry A. Wallace.New York Times, April 9, 1944. (vice President of the United States at that time)
Operation Trust (Russian: операция "Трест", tr. Operatsiya "Trest")
posted by clavdivs at 12:35 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
Henry A. Wallace.New York Times, April 9, 1944. (vice President of the United States at that time)
Operation Trust (Russian: операция "Трест", tr. Operatsiya "Trest")
posted by clavdivs at 12:35 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
Pretty deep in the thread the stuff about prison culture and some intentionally dangled bait might be slightly derailed
If you're referring to my comment, it was about Putin having children kidnapped and given away as presents to loyal Russians. The response was about US deportation. It's hilariously predictive, in that the two things aren't even the same thing. But something has to be said against the US government.
Someone holds up an apple, gets pelted with a bunch of oranges.
They want us all to live in a house of mirrors that they themselves put up. Any and every criticism of Vladimir Vladimorovich Putin gets instantly shielded — no evil can be left un-reflected. It's a strange type of self-brainwashing; it could use an upgrade to make the conversation more interesting.
Like the FPP says, Disinformation has one goal: To change the perception of reality of every American.
posted by romanb at 1:14 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
If you're referring to my comment, it was about Putin having children kidnapped and given away as presents to loyal Russians. The response was about US deportation. It's hilariously predictive, in that the two things aren't even the same thing. But something has to be said against the US government.
Someone holds up an apple, gets pelted with a bunch of oranges.
They want us all to live in a house of mirrors that they themselves put up. Any and every criticism of Vladimir Vladimorovich Putin gets instantly shielded — no evil can be left un-reflected. It's a strange type of self-brainwashing; it could use an upgrade to make the conversation more interesting.
Like the FPP says, Disinformation has one goal: To change the perception of reality of every American.
posted by romanb at 1:14 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
There's a time and a place. There is a genocide happening right now. I, and I believe others, feel the goal of this post is to deflect focus from that in the discourse.
I want food in Palestinian mouths and someone to hold back the IDF rifle butts. Does focusing on how Russia is probably capitalising on Western failure here help achieve that?
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:24 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
I want food in Palestinian mouths and someone to hold back the IDF rifle butts. Does focusing on how Russia is probably capitalising on Western failure here help achieve that?
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:24 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Russia inflaming the situation and spreading disinformation is surely not helping Palestinians, or is it?
posted by romanb at 2:09 AM on March 20
posted by romanb at 2:09 AM on March 20
Convincing you that we should all pay less attention to news coming out of the conflict, give it less weight, automatically assume that claims about Israeli crimes might just be Russian propaganda, definitely doesn't help Palestinians.
The last in-person conversation I had with an avowed pro-Israel person, he walked away in disgust at the idea that the IDF would ever use sexual assault to inspire terror. That was simply beyond the pale for him. He had been so thoroughly indoctrinated, the mere suggestion that the IDF weren't being completely respectful to Palestinian bodily autonomy was a line too far; I had clearly been co-opted by antisemitic propaganda.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:16 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
The last in-person conversation I had with an avowed pro-Israel person, he walked away in disgust at the idea that the IDF would ever use sexual assault to inspire terror. That was simply beyond the pale for him. He had been so thoroughly indoctrinated, the mere suggestion that the IDF weren't being completely respectful to Palestinian bodily autonomy was a line too far; I had clearly been co-opted by antisemitic propaganda.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:16 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
So we shouldn't talk about Russian disinformation campaigns or criticize Putin, or how they're abusing the war in Gaza for their purposes, because you believe people can't keep track of two or three or four issues at once. Interesting.
posted by romanb at 2:22 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by romanb at 2:22 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Clearly some people in this thread can't keep track of both things, or we wouldn't be worrying about whether Putin has provoked an unfair surfeit of compassion for starving children.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:27 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:27 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
You're putting a lot of this on me, and not the people who have drawn the conclusion from this post that we're too worried about Palestinians.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:30 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:30 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Ok, for arguments sake, let's say someone or some in this thread can't keep track of two issues. In that case, the end justifies the means, and the logical consequence is that criticism of Russian disinfo campaigns gets bombarded with US government criticism?
If two issues are hard to keep track of, you're adding a third and a fourth, for what, clarity?
I mean "you" in the plural, there are a few posters with similar comments, I'm not picking out anyone specifically.
posted by romanb at 2:30 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
If two issues are hard to keep track of, you're adding a third and a fourth, for what, clarity?
I mean "you" in the plural, there are a few posters with similar comments, I'm not picking out anyone specifically.
posted by romanb at 2:30 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Who here has approved of Putin, or the modern Russian state's tactics? It seems like everyone agrees that's bad. The core truths are sometimes good, stopped clock and all, the Russian Federation wrapping is terrible.
Sometimes people criticise the wrapping, when they want to discount the truths.
I just see people staying on task, and refusing to be distracted.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:49 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Sometimes people criticise the wrapping, when they want to discount the truths.
I just see people staying on task, and refusing to be distracted.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:49 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
No one writes things like "Putin is #1!" on the internets. That's for the most part a red herring because that's not usually the complaint. It's the whataboutisms.
There's a bit of back and forth here, but I think we're being somewhat civil and it seems on-topic to me, so I hope we're OK. I'm OK if you're OK!
posted by romanb at 3:18 AM on March 20
There's a bit of back and forth here, but I think we're being somewhat civil and it seems on-topic to me, so I hope we're OK. I'm OK if you're OK!
posted by romanb at 3:18 AM on March 20
What fascinates me so much about Russian disinformation is how eerily good they are at it. Between troll farms and oligarchs paying millions to amplify certain messages across the Internet, Putin has combined Смекалка and soft power into a deadly new weapon that, while not powerful enough to overthrow nations, is certainly enough to put Putin's thumb on the scale. Russians know that about him, and love him for it. The country might be an economic shit show, but showing bravery and a bit of smarts against a powerful enemy speaks to the heart of Russian nationalism. For many Russian voters, he's "our President," and it doesn't matter how many Russians he kills in Ukraine. So long as he continues to project Russian ideology and superiority onto the world, he's a national hero.
This is part of the cultural legacy that has kept Moscow running the largest nation on Earth even after its colonial empire's collapse. It's also why I think the US is just so bad at disinformation. To be an effective propagandist, you have to bypass peoples' brains and speak directly to deeper emotional truth. And as a culture, the US is a fresh-faced baby compared to the rest of the world, and we largely don't understand the deeply interwoven narratives that drive cultures in another nations. We don't have enough tools in our arsenal. And really, we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them? So when it comes to even understanding how such a disinformation scale could work, let alone at a large scale, our leaders have been lost. Obama didn't even know what he was looking at when it came to the 2016 election interference, let alone what to do about it. And while we've gotten better at naming the culprit, we're still Junior Varsity watching Premier League games.
I've stayed out of the I/P threads for my own mental health, but the world has changed. The old norms are dead and not coming back. The future will be decided by large amounts of money and how many eyeballs you can draw with an algorithm. And it has been no surprise to watch the pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian bots take immediate advantage to enflame the situation. That was the reality Putin saw coming, and it's the reality we still don't have an answer to. Sure, Patriot batteries can shoot down Kinzhal hypersonic missiles, but what do you do when the US won't fund more ammunition because Putin spent the last two years successfully courting MAGA extremists? From either a military or political standpoint, we still don't have any adequate responses to that. Our utter failure here is what both fascinates me and terrifies me about how Russia projects its power abroad. In the US, we're still playing checkers on a chess board that has long-since been flipped over during a knife fight. Eastern Europe will continue to suffer until we get our shit together, but I see little reason to believe we will ever do so. The incentives are still stacked towards enabling more disinformation and thuggery in the future.
posted by lock robster at 3:55 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
This is part of the cultural legacy that has kept Moscow running the largest nation on Earth even after its colonial empire's collapse. It's also why I think the US is just so bad at disinformation. To be an effective propagandist, you have to bypass peoples' brains and speak directly to deeper emotional truth. And as a culture, the US is a fresh-faced baby compared to the rest of the world, and we largely don't understand the deeply interwoven narratives that drive cultures in another nations. We don't have enough tools in our arsenal. And really, we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them? So when it comes to even understanding how such a disinformation scale could work, let alone at a large scale, our leaders have been lost. Obama didn't even know what he was looking at when it came to the 2016 election interference, let alone what to do about it. And while we've gotten better at naming the culprit, we're still Junior Varsity watching Premier League games.
I've stayed out of the I/P threads for my own mental health, but the world has changed. The old norms are dead and not coming back. The future will be decided by large amounts of money and how many eyeballs you can draw with an algorithm. And it has been no surprise to watch the pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian bots take immediate advantage to enflame the situation. That was the reality Putin saw coming, and it's the reality we still don't have an answer to. Sure, Patriot batteries can shoot down Kinzhal hypersonic missiles, but what do you do when the US won't fund more ammunition because Putin spent the last two years successfully courting MAGA extremists? From either a military or political standpoint, we still don't have any adequate responses to that. Our utter failure here is what both fascinates me and terrifies me about how Russia projects its power abroad. In the US, we're still playing checkers on a chess board that has long-since been flipped over during a knife fight. Eastern Europe will continue to suffer until we get our shit together, but I see little reason to believe we will ever do so. The incentives are still stacked towards enabling more disinformation and thuggery in the future.
posted by lock robster at 3:55 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
I would be a lot more okay if I felt confident that no matter what Putin has to say about anything, we all agreed that what is happening in Gaza right now is wrong and must stop.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:05 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:05 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
The basic, implicit assertion behind invoking disinformation basically amounts to "Don't talk about x, that's what they want you to do! Trust us, not them!" and of course when people quite reasonably object to this, it ends up a metaconversation talking around x but not about it. Everybody - especially nation states - tries to influence everybody. Just in the past week the CIA was just outed doing an anti-China influence op, Israel ran one on US Democrats about the UNRWA, Russia is doing what it does, Ukraine does them desperately so they can get support and stay in the fight, etc. Even "disinformation" as most commonly applied is in itself an attempt to influence you by labeling certain topics/narratives as illegitimate! I hate the "information war" framing because it boils it down to a fight between just two sides instead of having something to with, you know, the truth. If your framework is just "It's good when we do it but bad when they do it" that's a little too intellectually bankrupt for me. I can already foresee objections to my examples as a false equivalence; ok, so what is a good criteria for how we categorize attempts to influence others as legitimate or illegitimate? My guess is it leads to the intractable realm of epistemology.
Personally, I think calling something disinformation is probably the worst possible way to persuade somebody to change course. If you doubt that, just look at this thread. "Disinformation" is the equivalent of tossing a match into a pool of gasoline - you might blame the culprit, but it's probably more useful to address why that pool of gasoline exists in the first place. And despite all the furor, I've yet to see any measurements on its effectiveness.
It's probably worth noting that persuasion is hard. For instance, I doubt anybody will read this post and do a 180 on their position. The most effective use of mass propaganda is to anchor the agenda and have people talking about things advantageous to the propagandist while avoiding inconvenient topics (e.g. accepting Israel's "right to exist", "self-defense" and avoiding 30k+ dead Palestinians).
Anyways, old Cold War joke: What's the difference between Soviet and American propaganda? The Americans actually believe theirs. Most Americans find it funny because they think it's a case of mirror imaging where the Soviets mistakenly think our system is not free. Non-Americans find it funny for another reason.
posted by ndr at 4:07 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
Personally, I think calling something disinformation is probably the worst possible way to persuade somebody to change course. If you doubt that, just look at this thread. "Disinformation" is the equivalent of tossing a match into a pool of gasoline - you might blame the culprit, but it's probably more useful to address why that pool of gasoline exists in the first place. And despite all the furor, I've yet to see any measurements on its effectiveness.
It's probably worth noting that persuasion is hard. For instance, I doubt anybody will read this post and do a 180 on their position. The most effective use of mass propaganda is to anchor the agenda and have people talking about things advantageous to the propagandist while avoiding inconvenient topics (e.g. accepting Israel's "right to exist", "self-defense" and avoiding 30k+ dead Palestinians).
Anyways, old Cold War joke: What's the difference between Soviet and American propaganda? The Americans actually believe theirs. Most Americans find it funny because they think it's a case of mirror imaging where the Soviets mistakenly think our system is not free. Non-Americans find it funny for another reason.
posted by ndr at 4:07 AM on March 20 [8 favorites]
The logic of arguing against talking about disinformation while pointing at all other states for contributing to disinformation — it’s circular.
posted by romanb at 4:23 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
posted by romanb at 4:23 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
ok, so what is a good criteria for how we categorize attempts to influence others as legitimate or illegitimate? My guess is it leads to the intractable realm of epistemology.
I had a long response written out but accidentally deleted it. Now I just feel like Old Man Yells At Cloud.
posted by lock robster at 4:42 AM on March 20
I had a long response written out but accidentally deleted it. Now I just feel like Old Man Yells At Cloud.
posted by lock robster at 4:42 AM on March 20
This thread reminds me of the time that a bunch of people desperately wanted to "rerail" conversations about the Harper's Letter to be about how leftists were indoctrinating us with the woke mind virus to destroy Western civilization, and then absolutely lost their shit when people wanted to talk about it being a transphobic harassment campaign led by supposedly-liberal fascist sympathizers trying to shut down free speech.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:55 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:55 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Everyone's got their reference points. This thread reminds me of the time when, those who say they know what propaganda is, were saying the Americans were lying about Putin's coming invasion of Ukraine. Putin, at the time, was saying it was a ridiculous claim. Then the invasion happened. And, like magic, the memory of that incident was erased and here we are ... the same people are talking about how Putin's lies are the same as everyone else's lies. Yay.
posted by romanb at 6:00 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
posted by romanb at 6:00 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
...were saying the Americans were lying about Putin's coming invasion of Ukraine. Putin, at the time, was saying it was a ridiculous claim.
Phew. Glad that wasn't me. And my reference point being in both instances is not being credulous of Russian claims. And following the money (in that case, the amassing of military assets at the border).
posted by cendawanita at 6:03 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Phew. Glad that wasn't me. And my reference point being in both instances is not being credulous of Russian claims. And following the money (in that case, the amassing of military assets at the border).
posted by cendawanita at 6:03 AM on March 20 [4 favorites]
(literally remembered raising the matter in a work call because it might impact silly work stuff.)
posted by cendawanita at 6:04 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 6:04 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Well those certainly are some, uh, extraordinary claims.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:09 AM on March 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:09 AM on March 20 [2 favorites]
Anyways, old Cold War joke: What's the difference between Soviet and American propaganda? The Americans actually believe theirs. Most Americans find it funny because they think it's a case of mirror imaging where the Soviets mistakenly think our system is not free. Non-Americans find it funny for another reason.
Yep. Though I think there'll be a difference between ex-Second World states and Third Worlders, to use the Cold War terminology. (And even third worlders are themselves varied, being very much dependent on which pole they're more partial to. Maybe it's one of those Non-Aligned Movement things).
What fascinates me so much about Russian disinformation is how eerily good they are at it
They're not. The entire thesis of this is very much American projection. They barely worked outside the Soviet Union, and even then it looked like it did it's usually the locals going along with it as long as they get access to military aid (adjusting for variances where local belief in international communism was fairly sincere). And Russia isn't the USSR.
And as a culture, the US is a fresh-faced baby compared to the rest of the world, and we largely don't understand the deeply interwoven narratives that drive cultures in another nations. We don't have enough tools in our arsenal. And really, we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them?
There it is, the "we're so goofy, we can't possibly mean harm, mistakes were made," worldview.
So, do you know Black History Month was borne out in part of the experience of Black American leaders who were teaching in the colonial holdings of the Philippines, and saw how American propaganda and colonisation worked there? I didn't either, until this year.
posted by cendawanita at 6:14 AM on March 20 [16 favorites]
Yep. Though I think there'll be a difference between ex-Second World states and Third Worlders, to use the Cold War terminology. (And even third worlders are themselves varied, being very much dependent on which pole they're more partial to. Maybe it's one of those Non-Aligned Movement things).
What fascinates me so much about Russian disinformation is how eerily good they are at it
They're not. The entire thesis of this is very much American projection. They barely worked outside the Soviet Union, and even then it looked like it did it's usually the locals going along with it as long as they get access to military aid (adjusting for variances where local belief in international communism was fairly sincere). And Russia isn't the USSR.
And as a culture, the US is a fresh-faced baby compared to the rest of the world, and we largely don't understand the deeply interwoven narratives that drive cultures in another nations. We don't have enough tools in our arsenal. And really, we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them?
There it is, the "we're so goofy, we can't possibly mean harm, mistakes were made," worldview.
So, do you know Black History Month was borne out in part of the experience of Black American leaders who were teaching in the colonial holdings of the Philippines, and saw how American propaganda and colonisation worked there? I didn't either, until this year.
posted by cendawanita at 6:14 AM on March 20 [16 favorites]
This thread reminds me of the time when, those who say they know what propaganda is, were saying the Americans were lying about Putin's coming invasion of Ukraine. Putin, at the time, was saying it was a ridiculous claim. Then the invasion happened. And, like magic, the memory of that incident was erased and here we are ... the same people are talking about how Putin's lies are the same as everyone else's lies.
this is akin to Trump and his "people say" thing. maybe we don't do that, if we can avoid it. maybe be specific about who, exactly, said the Americans were lying about the invasion of Ukraine.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:05 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
this is akin to Trump and his "people say" thing. maybe we don't do that, if we can avoid it. maybe be specific about who, exactly, said the Americans were lying about the invasion of Ukraine.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:05 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
we all agree that what is happening in Gaza right now is wrong and must stop.
Wow. Ummm, okayyy. You know who else thinks what is happening in Gaza right now is wrong and must stop, right? Hamas. And you know who sides with Hamas? Putin. You know what all of them do? They all do antisemitism. So maybe just think about what kind of talking points you are spreading and what kind of ideas you are aligning yourself with.
posted by windbox at 8:21 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Wow. Ummm, okayyy. You know who else thinks what is happening in Gaza right now is wrong and must stop, right? Hamas. And you know who sides with Hamas? Putin. You know what all of them do? They all do antisemitism. So maybe just think about what kind of talking points you are spreading and what kind of ideas you are aligning yourself with.
posted by windbox at 8:21 AM on March 20 [6 favorites]
Well that's a take...
You are saying what is happening in Gaza is not wrong?
posted by Windopaene at 8:30 AM on March 20
You are saying what is happening in Gaza is not wrong?
posted by Windopaene at 8:30 AM on March 20
Seems like satire to me, what with the baseless accusations of antisemitism/foreign agents/clueless pawns and disturbing lack of knowledge about 20th century authoritarian regimes being thrown around here.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on March 20 [10 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on March 20 [10 favorites]
You are saying what is happening in Gaza is not wrong?
No, windbox is just distorting/twisting what the people they disagreed with were saying.
posted by Method Man at 8:49 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
No, windbox is just distorting/twisting what the people they disagreed with were saying.
posted by Method Man at 8:49 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Most Americans find it funny because they think it's a case of mirror imaging where the Soviets mistakenly think our system is not free
Interesting.
"On 19 September 1974, Yuri Andropov approved a large-scale operation to discredit Solzhenitsyn and his family and cut his communications with Soviet dissidents."
posted by clavdivs at 11:23 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
Interesting.
"On 19 September 1974, Yuri Andropov approved a large-scale operation to discredit Solzhenitsyn and his family and cut his communications with Soviet dissidents."
"The plan was jointly approved by Vladimir Kryuchkov, Philipp Bobkov, and Grigorenko (heads of First, Second and Fifth KGB Directorates).[68] The residencies in Geneva, London, Paris, Rome and other European cities participated in the operation. Among other active measures, at least three StB agents became translators and secretaries of Solzhenitsyn (one of them translated the poem Prussian Nights), keeping the KGB informed regarding all contacts by Solzhenitsyn.[68]
The KGB also sponsored a series of hostile books about Solzhenitsyn, most notably a "memoir published under the name of his first wife, Natalia Reshetovskaya, but probably mostly composed by Service A", according to historian Christopher Andrew.[68] Andropov also gave an order to create "an atmosphere of distrust and suspicion between Pauk[c] and the people around him" by feeding him rumors that the people around him were KGB agents, and deceiving him at every opportunity. Among other things, he continually received envelopes with photographs of car crashes, brain surgery and other disturbing imagery. After the KGB harassment in Zürich, Solzhenitsyn settled in Cavendish, Vermont, reduced communications with others. His influence and moral authority for the West diminished as he became increasingly isolated and critical of Western individualism. KGB and CPSU experts finally concluded that he alienated American listeners by his "reactionary views and intransigent criticism of the US way of life", so no further active measures would be required.[68]
The KGB also sponsored a series of hostile books about Solzhenitsyn, most notably a "memoir published under the name of his first wife, Natalia Reshetovskaya, but probably mostly composed by Service A", according to historian Christopher Andrew.[68] Andropov also gave an order to create "an atmosphere of distrust and suspicion between Pauk[c] and the people around him" by feeding him rumors that the people around him were KGB agents, and deceiving him at every opportunity. Among other things, he continually received envelopes with photographs of car crashes, brain surgery and other disturbing imagery. After the KGB harassment in Zürich, Solzhenitsyn settled in Cavendish, Vermont, reduced communications with others. His influence and moral authority for the West diminished as he became increasingly isolated and critical of Western individualism. KGB and CPSU experts finally concluded that he alienated American listeners by his "reactionary views and intransigent criticism of the US way of life", so no further active measures would be required.[68]
posted by clavdivs at 11:23 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
If you go read the post title, it's about Russian disinformation. Not specifically Gaza, and not about American disinformation. My earlier rant was based on extensive RL and online relationships with "online leftists" in the US, who have deliberately self-programmed into their brains and equivalence between the current US (exclude Trump please) and the current Putin-led Russian regime. Yes, disinformation campaigns work best when there's a grain of truth (like, yes, there are/were some Nazis in the Azov battalion) they can use to get people mad so they can then lead you the rest of the way there. Just like Trumpers, the leftists I know are extremely susceptible to this and make it worse by deciding that:
* Every accredited news outlet in the US or Europe that has, you know, fact checkers (and journalists on the ground and ombudsmen and people with journalism degrees) is somehow parroting some deep state talking points.
* Therefore I like to do my own research so here's a retweet from the X "leftist community" with some totally unverifiable information delivered by a 26-year-old white American nerd with delusions of grandeur. Guess what? I was hanging out in the local anarchist bookstore way back in the 80s (the one referenced by Sonic Youth). This shit ain't new!
I feel like people trying to cobble together their own truth from a bunch of social media nuggets would be better served by going to journalism school and putting in the work instead of armchair quarterbacking the world. Just like in the complexity thread, they imagine that an in-depth BBC interview with Ukrainian refugees is somehow the same as the above Twitter/X guy. MAGA people do this too: OANN, Fox, various right-wing talk shows. Same problem, different sources.
Here's an example from above:
What fascinates me so much about Russian disinformation is how eerily good they are at it
They're not. The entire thesis of this is very much American projection. They barely worked outside the Soviet Union, and even then it looked like it did it's usually the locals going along with it as long as they get access to military aid (adjusting for variances where local belief in international communism was fairly sincere). And Russia isn't the USSR.
The idea that Russian disinformation isn't very good and/or they didn't influence recent elections is itself Russian propaganda. I had this argument with a friend of mine and despite telling him of many cases where I personally had to alter network rules to block visible cyberattacks from St. Petersburg and/or FSB/GRU, he was like "well I don't know about that". He also "didn't know much" about the Uighur internment camps but was happy to tell me that the US is a fading power and that the Chinese belt and road initiative was an example of a truly great country. He had no answer to why China supports Russia other than that they "have to" because, guess what, everyone's just an automation being directed by the inexorable force of the US capitalist deep state. Which is stupid. The irony is I think the US should drastically cut down it's international military presence, adopt privacy laws, ditch the CIA and start over with a new agency with less power and more transparency, etc. But people believe in these vague, self-definable -isms that they can use to justify whatever they want.
In short, yes Russia is constantly using disinformation and cyber warfare globally. While the US does those things, I think that:
* As long as we aren't holding sham elections, controlling and disbanding non-state media, and murdering the Bernie Sanders types, the US is 100x better as a democracy than Russia.
* Putin is not and has never done anything because we "made" him, any more than we invaded Iraq because they "made" us.
* Bringing up examples from more than say 20 years ago is helpful for historical context and for diplomats who need to understand countries' attitudes towards the US, but they are not really relevant as a "what about this?" when discussing stuff going on in the world today. Also, if you are in the US you can agitate and vote for change, or even run for office, whereas you can't change what Putin is doing directly.
For the Gaza part of the post - I am not at all satisfied with what the US has done so far, but having been around a jillion years, the fact that *mainstream* US media is overwhelmingly focused on the plight of Palestinians is a gigantic sea change and not something I've seen. Small comfort if you get bombed by the IDF tomorrow, but it is absolutely seeping into the minds of average Americans, especially the youth. I hope that it leads to a more equitable I/P policy sooner rather than later. I mean, Chuck Schumer practically called for regime change in Israel, and it's 95% likely that this was coordinated with the Biden administration.
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:59 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
* Every accredited news outlet in the US or Europe that has, you know, fact checkers (and journalists on the ground and ombudsmen and people with journalism degrees) is somehow parroting some deep state talking points.
* Therefore I like to do my own research so here's a retweet from the X "leftist community" with some totally unverifiable information delivered by a 26-year-old white American nerd with delusions of grandeur. Guess what? I was hanging out in the local anarchist bookstore way back in the 80s (the one referenced by Sonic Youth). This shit ain't new!
I feel like people trying to cobble together their own truth from a bunch of social media nuggets would be better served by going to journalism school and putting in the work instead of armchair quarterbacking the world. Just like in the complexity thread, they imagine that an in-depth BBC interview with Ukrainian refugees is somehow the same as the above Twitter/X guy. MAGA people do this too: OANN, Fox, various right-wing talk shows. Same problem, different sources.
Here's an example from above:
What fascinates me so much about Russian disinformation is how eerily good they are at it
They're not. The entire thesis of this is very much American projection. They barely worked outside the Soviet Union, and even then it looked like it did it's usually the locals going along with it as long as they get access to military aid (adjusting for variances where local belief in international communism was fairly sincere). And Russia isn't the USSR.
The idea that Russian disinformation isn't very good and/or they didn't influence recent elections is itself Russian propaganda. I had this argument with a friend of mine and despite telling him of many cases where I personally had to alter network rules to block visible cyberattacks from St. Petersburg and/or FSB/GRU, he was like "well I don't know about that". He also "didn't know much" about the Uighur internment camps but was happy to tell me that the US is a fading power and that the Chinese belt and road initiative was an example of a truly great country. He had no answer to why China supports Russia other than that they "have to" because, guess what, everyone's just an automation being directed by the inexorable force of the US capitalist deep state. Which is stupid. The irony is I think the US should drastically cut down it's international military presence, adopt privacy laws, ditch the CIA and start over with a new agency with less power and more transparency, etc. But people believe in these vague, self-definable -isms that they can use to justify whatever they want.
In short, yes Russia is constantly using disinformation and cyber warfare globally. While the US does those things, I think that:
* As long as we aren't holding sham elections, controlling and disbanding non-state media, and murdering the Bernie Sanders types, the US is 100x better as a democracy than Russia.
* Putin is not and has never done anything because we "made" him, any more than we invaded Iraq because they "made" us.
* Bringing up examples from more than say 20 years ago is helpful for historical context and for diplomats who need to understand countries' attitudes towards the US, but they are not really relevant as a "what about this?" when discussing stuff going on in the world today. Also, if you are in the US you can agitate and vote for change, or even run for office, whereas you can't change what Putin is doing directly.
For the Gaza part of the post - I am not at all satisfied with what the US has done so far, but having been around a jillion years, the fact that *mainstream* US media is overwhelmingly focused on the plight of Palestinians is a gigantic sea change and not something I've seen. Small comfort if you get bombed by the IDF tomorrow, but it is absolutely seeping into the minds of average Americans, especially the youth. I hope that it leads to a more equitable I/P policy sooner rather than later. I mean, Chuck Schumer practically called for regime change in Israel, and it's 95% likely that this was coordinated with the Biden administration.
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:59 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
It's rediculous to blame Russia for right-wing victories in the EU & US, much less for westerners "othering" people. We're doing that ourselves, primarily through neo-liberals eroding social systems, brealking solidarity organizations like unions, etc.
Yes, there exists an ocean of money pushing awful things here, which comes from diverse personal, corporate, and national interests. Yes, Russia is one of those national interests, but not the largest, richest, or most important, and not even the worst ethically: You know the FBI rolled up the Saudi inflitration of Twitter in 2015, right? After this, the Saudis backed Musk's Twitter purchase, which gives them information on dissidents, and who knows what else.
Russia influenced Trump's victory in 2016 primarily by paying US & UK advertising companies, likely because advertisors were better. Also nothing form their intelegance agencies really mattered. As advertising worked in 2016, and Russia was a smart buyer then, it's clear Russia should've brought this advertising work in-house by now, so yes surely they've become much better at western propaganda.
> "Every accredited news outlet in the US or Europe .. is somehow parroting some deep state talking points."
Yes exactly, including this post. As stated we'd this problem before of course, but now either (1) ones illusions have been really broken, or else one winds up bilked into either (2) said deep state talking points, or (3) the other side's talking points. I've no idea if the Israel-Gaza war caused much migration from (2) to (1), although that'd be funny.
At a guess, Russian ultra-nationalist theorists like Alexander Dugin caused the Ukraine war, maybe the ultra-nationalists exploited NATO expansion, but that's on them.
We'd wiser people in the CIA, NSA, etc in the past, who made clever choices like advising Lyndon Johnson that MLK's Civil Rights movement needed to win, otherwise they'd face more Marxist-Lenonist efforts like the Black Panthers. If the CIA was wise today, then they'd directly counter Alexander Dugin et al by funding people who dumb down modern western social theory and publish in Russian. It'd never unseat Putin but it'd alter how his own people interpert information. Instead, we've starry eyed tech idiots in the CIA today who equate better information with the larger information pool supplied by mass surveillance.
Anyways..
Among all this mess what actually matters? It's mostly if the fossil fuels get burnned or stay in the ground, if we continue destroying the planet or if trade collapse reigns in our consumption. We need Russia and other fossil fuel exporters to "take their ball and go home", in that they hoard their fossil fuels for themselves. Is this plausible from here? It's messy, but we're making progress when governments blow up others pipelines. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 2:20 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Yes, there exists an ocean of money pushing awful things here, which comes from diverse personal, corporate, and national interests. Yes, Russia is one of those national interests, but not the largest, richest, or most important, and not even the worst ethically: You know the FBI rolled up the Saudi inflitration of Twitter in 2015, right? After this, the Saudis backed Musk's Twitter purchase, which gives them information on dissidents, and who knows what else.
Russia influenced Trump's victory in 2016 primarily by paying US & UK advertising companies, likely because advertisors were better. Also nothing form their intelegance agencies really mattered. As advertising worked in 2016, and Russia was a smart buyer then, it's clear Russia should've brought this advertising work in-house by now, so yes surely they've become much better at western propaganda.
> "Every accredited news outlet in the US or Europe .. is somehow parroting some deep state talking points."
Yes exactly, including this post. As stated we'd this problem before of course, but now either (1) ones illusions have been really broken, or else one winds up bilked into either (2) said deep state talking points, or (3) the other side's talking points. I've no idea if the Israel-Gaza war caused much migration from (2) to (1), although that'd be funny.
At a guess, Russian ultra-nationalist theorists like Alexander Dugin caused the Ukraine war, maybe the ultra-nationalists exploited NATO expansion, but that's on them.
We'd wiser people in the CIA, NSA, etc in the past, who made clever choices like advising Lyndon Johnson that MLK's Civil Rights movement needed to win, otherwise they'd face more Marxist-Lenonist efforts like the Black Panthers. If the CIA was wise today, then they'd directly counter Alexander Dugin et al by funding people who dumb down modern western social theory and publish in Russian. It'd never unseat Putin but it'd alter how his own people interpert information. Instead, we've starry eyed tech idiots in the CIA today who equate better information with the larger information pool supplied by mass surveillance.
Anyways..
Among all this mess what actually matters? It's mostly if the fossil fuels get burnned or stay in the ground, if we continue destroying the planet or if trade collapse reigns in our consumption. We need Russia and other fossil fuel exporters to "take their ball and go home", in that they hoard their fossil fuels for themselves. Is this plausible from here? It's messy, but we're making progress when governments blow up others pipelines. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 2:20 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
If you go read the post title, it's about Russian disinformation. Not specifically Gaza, and not about American disinformation.
There is a lot in the linked pieces about the genocide in Gaza (or rather equivocating about the genocide.) The framing is clearly that attitudes about Gaza are shaped by Russian disinformation campaigns and indoctrination of silly young people, and not moral horror at the atrocities being committed.
I feel like people trying to cobble together their own truth from a bunch of social media nuggets would be better served by going to journalism school and putting in the work instead of armchair quarterbacking the world. Just like in the complexity thread, they imagine that an in-depth BBC interview with Ukrainian refugees is somehow the same as the above Twitter/X guy.
Suggesting that you can't form a realistic view of the world without a journalism degree is a weird notion. Suggesting that having a journalism degree would help is perhaps even weirder.
The BBC interviews are the same as a post on Twitter, not in degree, but in kind. They are both curated slices of information designed to present a view of the world. Maybe one or the other is motivated out of a desire to present the truth to the greatest extent they can, but that isn't a safe assumption in either case. There are no sources so trustworthy they can be accepted wholecloth without skepticism, and there is no point where you have enough sources to be one hundred percent certain about your beliefs. Epistemological certainty is always a matter of degrees.
That isn't to say some sources aren't more trustworthy than others, but even that is conditional. I think Al-Jazeera is a relatively solid source, but you can bet I am going to take their reporting on Qatar and neighboring states with a lot more skepticism than their reporting on South America. Every news agency on Earth has interests that influence objectivity. Some are composed of nothing but service to those interests. Others are pretty good in most places. But none of them are shining beacons of truth that will never steer you wrong. Certainly not the BBC, which is happy to peddle bigoted trash from transphobes and helped undermine the safety of trans folks in the UK.
And social media is no longer entirely an anonymous collection of anonymous voices. Professors, journalists, politicians, and experts in a large variety of fields use social media to fact check and comment on the news, or to state their perceptions on the state of the world. Some of them are propagandists, or right wing buffoons, of course. Just like anything else, you have to show some discernment. But the idea that there is trustworthy traditional media for serious people and vapid, propaganda filled social media for the rest no longer holds up, if it ever did.
The idea that Russian disinformation isn't very good and/or they didn't influence recent elections is itself Russian propaganda.
There is a difference between saying something was completely ineffectual and saying that the Russians are "eerily good" at disinformation. Russia uses externally directed propaganda and interferes in elections, in much the same way other states do. They rely on large numbers of unsubtle accounts repeating their talking points, which is both reasonably effective at corralling idiots and leaves a very visible footprint. They are directing it fairly aggressively at the US, which makes it even more visible to us. That doesn't make Russian intelligence brilliant manipulators, just loud and aggressive.
I think there is far more danger in the attitude I have seen developing where centrist liberals convince themselves every idea they disagree with is a plot from Russia (or china, or Iran, or some other "adversary"). That there is no genuine dissent from pro-US neoliberal hegemony and polite social conservatism that isn't the result of sinister foreign puppetmasters. There is no need to grapple with facts, ideas, or positions. No need to consider what interests or biases might influence one's thinking. If it feels uncomfortable, it is a plot by the omnipresent enemy. It's essentially how the MAGA types think.
I mean, Chuck Schumer practically called for regime change in Israel, and it's 95% likely that this was coordinated with the Biden administration.
Changing leaders via election is a very different thing from invading a country and toppling its government to install your own. If regime change can refer to both notions, it is not a useful term. And I don't think Schumer was suggesting American troops were going to be dragging Netanyahu out of a spider hole any time soon.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:21 PM on March 20 [10 favorites]
There is a lot in the linked pieces about the genocide in Gaza (or rather equivocating about the genocide.) The framing is clearly that attitudes about Gaza are shaped by Russian disinformation campaigns and indoctrination of silly young people, and not moral horror at the atrocities being committed.
I feel like people trying to cobble together their own truth from a bunch of social media nuggets would be better served by going to journalism school and putting in the work instead of armchair quarterbacking the world. Just like in the complexity thread, they imagine that an in-depth BBC interview with Ukrainian refugees is somehow the same as the above Twitter/X guy.
Suggesting that you can't form a realistic view of the world without a journalism degree is a weird notion. Suggesting that having a journalism degree would help is perhaps even weirder.
The BBC interviews are the same as a post on Twitter, not in degree, but in kind. They are both curated slices of information designed to present a view of the world. Maybe one or the other is motivated out of a desire to present the truth to the greatest extent they can, but that isn't a safe assumption in either case. There are no sources so trustworthy they can be accepted wholecloth without skepticism, and there is no point where you have enough sources to be one hundred percent certain about your beliefs. Epistemological certainty is always a matter of degrees.
That isn't to say some sources aren't more trustworthy than others, but even that is conditional. I think Al-Jazeera is a relatively solid source, but you can bet I am going to take their reporting on Qatar and neighboring states with a lot more skepticism than their reporting on South America. Every news agency on Earth has interests that influence objectivity. Some are composed of nothing but service to those interests. Others are pretty good in most places. But none of them are shining beacons of truth that will never steer you wrong. Certainly not the BBC, which is happy to peddle bigoted trash from transphobes and helped undermine the safety of trans folks in the UK.
And social media is no longer entirely an anonymous collection of anonymous voices. Professors, journalists, politicians, and experts in a large variety of fields use social media to fact check and comment on the news, or to state their perceptions on the state of the world. Some of them are propagandists, or right wing buffoons, of course. Just like anything else, you have to show some discernment. But the idea that there is trustworthy traditional media for serious people and vapid, propaganda filled social media for the rest no longer holds up, if it ever did.
The idea that Russian disinformation isn't very good and/or they didn't influence recent elections is itself Russian propaganda.
There is a difference between saying something was completely ineffectual and saying that the Russians are "eerily good" at disinformation. Russia uses externally directed propaganda and interferes in elections, in much the same way other states do. They rely on large numbers of unsubtle accounts repeating their talking points, which is both reasonably effective at corralling idiots and leaves a very visible footprint. They are directing it fairly aggressively at the US, which makes it even more visible to us. That doesn't make Russian intelligence brilliant manipulators, just loud and aggressive.
I think there is far more danger in the attitude I have seen developing where centrist liberals convince themselves every idea they disagree with is a plot from Russia (or china, or Iran, or some other "adversary"). That there is no genuine dissent from pro-US neoliberal hegemony and polite social conservatism that isn't the result of sinister foreign puppetmasters. There is no need to grapple with facts, ideas, or positions. No need to consider what interests or biases might influence one's thinking. If it feels uncomfortable, it is a plot by the omnipresent enemy. It's essentially how the MAGA types think.
I mean, Chuck Schumer practically called for regime change in Israel, and it's 95% likely that this was coordinated with the Biden administration.
Changing leaders via election is a very different thing from invading a country and toppling its government to install your own. If regime change can refer to both notions, it is not a useful term. And I don't think Schumer was suggesting American troops were going to be dragging Netanyahu out of a spider hole any time soon.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:21 PM on March 20 [10 favorites]
The idea that Russian disinformation isn't very good and/or they didn't influence recent elections is itself Russian propaganda.
I'm inclined to take that seriously if the rest of the paragraph doesn't read to me as a non-westerner as bogstandard western ignorance as a result of your media ecosystem. Jeffburdges's take is where I'm at for the most part. Messaging that counters the establishment worldview finds purchase if there's something to get a foothold on to and that's usually in the arena of low-information coupled with an existing grievance and you pick (like a woodpecker) at that confluence (ie with effort = resources) , which is another strand of thought I think but relevant here.
The rest of the world still exists you know. It wasn't like western democracy was so principally incredible that most of the domino theory idea didn't pan out. The Soviet Union wasn't fizzling out just because people don't care for communism that much more. Even currently, people in the global south have more positive views of China compared to Russia principally because of economic spending overseas, comparatively speaking. Russia is a non-entity here unless there is some historical alliance eg Vietnam, or it was an ex-USSR state and even then money talks more than predisposition to some incredible Russian messaging (Azerbaijan). If there're influence campaigns running out Russia or Belarussia it's because it's paid for by the southies for their local agitation, not because Russia has some grand strategy. If Russian weaponry is the choice it's usually because of the cost.
And even with China, authoritarians feel interested to laud their political system (it's aspirational for them) post-economic deal but it's not like there's much buy-in there even as there's a strong sentiment of admiration for the "stability".
posted by cendawanita at 3:14 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
I'm inclined to take that seriously if the rest of the paragraph doesn't read to me as a non-westerner as bogstandard western ignorance as a result of your media ecosystem. Jeffburdges's take is where I'm at for the most part. Messaging that counters the establishment worldview finds purchase if there's something to get a foothold on to and that's usually in the arena of low-information coupled with an existing grievance and you pick (like a woodpecker) at that confluence (ie with effort = resources) , which is another strand of thought I think but relevant here.
The rest of the world still exists you know. It wasn't like western democracy was so principally incredible that most of the domino theory idea didn't pan out. The Soviet Union wasn't fizzling out just because people don't care for communism that much more. Even currently, people in the global south have more positive views of China compared to Russia principally because of economic spending overseas, comparatively speaking. Russia is a non-entity here unless there is some historical alliance eg Vietnam, or it was an ex-USSR state and even then money talks more than predisposition to some incredible Russian messaging (Azerbaijan). If there're influence campaigns running out Russia or Belarussia it's because it's paid for by the southies for their local agitation, not because Russia has some grand strategy. If Russian weaponry is the choice it's usually because of the cost.
And even with China, authoritarians feel interested to laud their political system (it's aspirational for them) post-economic deal but it's not like there's much buy-in there even as there's a strong sentiment of admiration for the "stability".
posted by cendawanita at 3:14 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
the fact that *mainstream* US media is overwhelmingly focused on the plight of Palestinians is a gigantic sea change
Yes, indeed. What's been interesting is how little mainstream institutions and people who rightly were depending on them to make sense of the world were prepared for it, and that still for me, is an indication of the incredible epistemic closure brought on by incredible resources being borne on them. Lacking any other way to understand this, Main Characters try to grok it in the only frame they know how. Enter the other Main Character. Who's barely been spending on this specific plank and is caught out as much as anyone, sending out for the tea service to host meetings in Moscow notwithstanding.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
Yes, indeed. What's been interesting is how little mainstream institutions and people who rightly were depending on them to make sense of the world were prepared for it, and that still for me, is an indication of the incredible epistemic closure brought on by incredible resources being borne on them. Lacking any other way to understand this, Main Characters try to grok it in the only frame they know how. Enter the other Main Character. Who's barely been spending on this specific plank and is caught out as much as anyone, sending out for the tea service to host meetings in Moscow notwithstanding.
posted by cendawanita at 3:22 PM on March 20 [5 favorites]
So suppose that I accept Russian disinformation is a dire and pernicious threat - what would you like me to do with this? On many issues, such as Gaza, I can nominally exert a bit of influence through voting, advocacy, etc, especially where my government (American) is providing active support. My influence on Russian society is basically nil.
posted by ndr at 3:35 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by ndr at 3:35 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
So suppose that I accept Russian disinformation is a dire and pernicious threat - what would you like me to do with this?
I think in theory the answer is "be careful to check the sources of your news, pay attention to who funds them, and to seek additional independent confirmation".
In reality it seems to be "listen to approved channels and ignore anything outside them."
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:43 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
I think in theory the answer is "be careful to check the sources of your news, pay attention to who funds them, and to seek additional independent confirmation".
In reality it seems to be "listen to approved channels and ignore anything outside them."
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:43 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
(The approved channels, of course, being AMERICAN propaganda outlets. Because the worst thing in the world is to make Americans less contented with their corrosive, world-destroying neoliberal system; that's "divisive".)
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:00 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:00 PM on March 20 [6 favorites]
While we're on the subject of state propaganda:
NYT, WSJ Laundering Israel's Obviously Bogus UN "Hamas Links" Story Helped Starve Gaza (Adam Johnson)
NYT, WSJ Laundering Israel's Obviously Bogus UN "Hamas Links" Story Helped Starve Gaza (Adam Johnson)
Central to Israel’s smear campaign against UNRWA were the New York Times and Wall Street Journal, which laundered unsubstantiated Israeli claims in the most credulous and tabloid terms time and time again. Their role would kick off in earnest on January 27, when both publications did breaking news stories about alleged UNRWA Hamas “links” and claims that “12 UNRWA employees” were involved in the October 7 attack on southern Israel. These sensationalist claims came, suspiciously, just hours after the International Court of Justice ruling that found Israel was committing “plausible genocide.” The most basic journalistic skepticism would have noted the timing as exceedingly convenient, but journalistic skepticism is for directing at US enemies, not at allies—who, despite months and months of baseless accusations and self-serving lies, are treated as Neutral Government Officials making sober, reasonable claims.posted by adrienneleigh at 5:40 PM on March 20 [10 favorites]
So suppose that I accept Russian disinformation is a dire and pernicious threat - what would you like me to do with this? On many issues, such as Gaza, I can nominally exert a bit of influence through voting, advocacy, etc, especially where my government (American) is providing active support.
You can also support and advocate for those who oppose Putin's Russia. Liev Schreiber's Blue Check is considered a transparency model for getting 90% of the money directly to Ukrainian-run aide organizations on the ground. Nobel Prize-winning Novaya Gazeta and Meduza are both examples of influential independent Russian media. Novaya Gazeta's interview with economist Thomas Picketty actually shifted my opinion on the Ukraine war. Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen focuses solely on feeding people in Ukraine, Gaza and elsewhere. The Trust Fund for Victims (TFV) at the International Criminal Court (ICC) also relies on donations.
My influence on Russian society is basically nil.
It's not though. Anything you do to oppose MAGA helps, especially those holding up Ukraine aide, talking up Putin or Orban publicly — or not understanding how the democratic process benefits them personally. Talking to your friends or on the interwebs also matters. The news media, in general, is tanking, and foreign news is first to go. That makes the hard task of understanding how geopolitics could possibly affect you even harder. It doesn't help that it is also tough for people to believe disinformation is real when, in fact, they really need to take it as a given.
Dissident Russia — There was, of course, no election in Russia because Putin had Navalny, his chief opposition, killed, but Navalny's opposition movement lives on, and Lithuania is making a practice of taking in Russian dissidents. If you want to learn a little bit more about Putin's Russia, you might find some of Navalny's videos, the documentary about him or his organization the Anti-Corruption Foundation interesting.
The Presidential Election — Robert Mueller’s team indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies during their lengthy investigation on Russian election interference and other crimes. Candidate Trump is talking about rehiring Paul Manafort who was one of his links to Russia and did jail-time. Manafort isn't particularly interesting, but his business partner Roger Stone is. Stone is a charismatic egoist, a former jailbird, as well as advisor to presidents dating back to Nixon, who starred in his own documentary, the chilling but highly watchable Get Me Roger Stone.
Central and Eastern Europe — It's worth paying attention to how Europe is handling Putin to get a grasp on how serious this is. Lithuania is currently aiming to supply half of its 3 million people with bomb shelters. Latvia has reintroduced compulsory conscription. Poland doubled its defense spending in 2023. Finland and Sweden joined NATO, and Sweden's commander-in-chief recently said the Swedes should prepare for war. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia recently set up a common Baltic defense zone on their borders with Russia and Belarus amid growing security concerns. Germany, France and Poland have established the Weimar Triangle. The Czech Republic, meanwhile, has just undertaken an initiative along with 18 other countries to gather artillery for Ukraine.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:17 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
You can also support and advocate for those who oppose Putin's Russia. Liev Schreiber's Blue Check is considered a transparency model for getting 90% of the money directly to Ukrainian-run aide organizations on the ground. Nobel Prize-winning Novaya Gazeta and Meduza are both examples of influential independent Russian media. Novaya Gazeta's interview with economist Thomas Picketty actually shifted my opinion on the Ukraine war. Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen focuses solely on feeding people in Ukraine, Gaza and elsewhere. The Trust Fund for Victims (TFV) at the International Criminal Court (ICC) also relies on donations.
My influence on Russian society is basically nil.
It's not though. Anything you do to oppose MAGA helps, especially those holding up Ukraine aide, talking up Putin or Orban publicly — or not understanding how the democratic process benefits them personally. Talking to your friends or on the interwebs also matters. The news media, in general, is tanking, and foreign news is first to go. That makes the hard task of understanding how geopolitics could possibly affect you even harder. It doesn't help that it is also tough for people to believe disinformation is real when, in fact, they really need to take it as a given.
Dissident Russia — There was, of course, no election in Russia because Putin had Navalny, his chief opposition, killed, but Navalny's opposition movement lives on, and Lithuania is making a practice of taking in Russian dissidents. If you want to learn a little bit more about Putin's Russia, you might find some of Navalny's videos, the documentary about him or his organization the Anti-Corruption Foundation interesting.
The Presidential Election — Robert Mueller’s team indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies during their lengthy investigation on Russian election interference and other crimes. Candidate Trump is talking about rehiring Paul Manafort who was one of his links to Russia and did jail-time. Manafort isn't particularly interesting, but his business partner Roger Stone is. Stone is a charismatic egoist, a former jailbird, as well as advisor to presidents dating back to Nixon, who starred in his own documentary, the chilling but highly watchable Get Me Roger Stone.
Central and Eastern Europe — It's worth paying attention to how Europe is handling Putin to get a grasp on how serious this is. Lithuania is currently aiming to supply half of its 3 million people with bomb shelters. Latvia has reintroduced compulsory conscription. Poland doubled its defense spending in 2023. Finland and Sweden joined NATO, and Sweden's commander-in-chief recently said the Swedes should prepare for war. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia recently set up a common Baltic defense zone on their borders with Russia and Belarus amid growing security concerns. Germany, France and Poland have established the Weimar Triangle. The Czech Republic, meanwhile, has just undertaken an initiative along with 18 other countries to gather artillery for Ukraine.
posted by Violet Blue at 9:17 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
I think there's something, in a post about disinformation, slightly odd about saying
"If you go read the post title, it's about Russian disinformation. Not specifically Gaza, and not about American disinformation."
I think it's more useful to say: Consider the context. Why are you hearing this? What responses might the provider of this information want to elicit? What's their publishing history? What's the media environment it exists in and is responding to? Why *these* particular facts? Is there a particular language this is couched in?
Everything so much more than the bare denotation.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:07 AM on March 21 [12 favorites]
"If you go read the post title, it's about Russian disinformation. Not specifically Gaza, and not about American disinformation."
I think it's more useful to say: Consider the context. Why are you hearing this? What responses might the provider of this information want to elicit? What's their publishing history? What's the media environment it exists in and is responding to? Why *these* particular facts? Is there a particular language this is couched in?
Everything so much more than the bare denotation.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:07 AM on March 21 [12 favorites]
You can also support and advocate for those who oppose Putin's Russia. Liev Schreiber's Blue Check is considered a transparency model for getting 90% of the money directly to Ukrainian-run aide organizations on the ground. Nobel Prize-winning Novaya Gazeta and Meduza are both examples of influential independent Russian media. Novaya Gazeta's interview with economist Thomas Picketty actually shifted my opinion on the Ukraine war. Jose Andres' World Central Kitchen focuses solely on feeding people in Ukraine, Gaza and elsewhere. The Trust Fund for Victims (TFV) at the International Criminal Court (ICC) also relies on donations.These are good, but aside from maybe supporting the aforementioned news orgs, I'm not sure there's a direct connection to Russian propaganda here. Indeed, I think it's unlikely that the thing that pushes somebody off the fence to support these things is going to be "disinformation" rather than, say, the invasion of Ukraine. I also notice your response pointing out my influence with respect to Russia is limited is basically that I can raise general awareness among people. This doesn't actually combat the effects of Russian disinformation and is more of a laundry list of topics, some with a tenuous relationship with Russia. The US has been at loggerheads with Russia for a long time, it's not like there's even a public campaign for reorienting our relationship to make - we did try to prevent the invasion and failed. We are already trying to combat perceived Russian narratives - see all the State Department press releases you linked.
You appear to see Russian "disinformation" as a Gordian knot that if we could just agree to cut, solves all our problems. In my view, you can't even define it will never be able to build a consensus on what it is. A hydra is more like it - once everything is framed in terms of an information war between two sides, the truth takes a backseat to winning and it becomes permissible to bend, ignore, or falsify it. And the more you rally selective truths and ignore inconvenient ones in service of winning, the more you delude yourself and the further you drift from objective reality.
posted by ndr at 4:58 AM on March 21 [10 favorites]
These are good, but
I'm not sure you are providing terms that yield a viable alternative to the person you've responded to
posted by elkevelvet at 8:08 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure you are providing terms that yield a viable alternative to the person you've responded to
posted by elkevelvet at 8:08 AM on March 21 [1 favorite]
This thread is wild.
lock robster: And as a culture, the US is a fresh-faced baby compared to the rest of the world, and we largely don't understand the deeply interwoven narratives that drive cultures in another nations. We don't have enough tools in our arsenal. And really, we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them?
cendawanita: There it is, the "we're so goofy, we can't possibly mean harm, mistakes were made," worldview.
To my read, lock robster was saying that the US is bad at disinformation because it's a young country with so much power it can afford to ignore other countries' cultures. That's more dangerously ignorant than goofy, and definitely not we don't mean harm.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:04 AM on March 21 [9 favorites]
lock robster: And as a culture, the US is a fresh-faced baby compared to the rest of the world, and we largely don't understand the deeply interwoven narratives that drive cultures in another nations. We don't have enough tools in our arsenal. And really, we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them?
cendawanita: There it is, the "we're so goofy, we can't possibly mean harm, mistakes were made," worldview.
To my read, lock robster was saying that the US is bad at disinformation because it's a young country with so much power it can afford to ignore other countries' cultures. That's more dangerously ignorant than goofy, and definitely not we don't mean harm.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:04 AM on March 21 [9 favorites]
we've had the luxury of not caring about such things throughout most of our country's existence, so why build them?
Necessity might change that, just as it has for many, many non-white populations following a couple centuries of extremely intimate contact with Western Capitalism.
Perhaps once the self-fulfilling prophecy of making/raping the world whiter more clearly fails to pass, and learning non-english languages and ways of doing things becomes reasonably important simply because the sheer number of non-white non-english-speaking members in our species requires it, the impetus to build such things will magically appear just as it has for many other peoples' ancestors.
Perhaps then, after a meaningful effort by this species to understand itself as a species has actually been made, our susceptibility to indoctrination by disinformation will decrease too. It's almost as if choosing not to know things and being vulnerable to "disinformation" could be related. Who knows.
posted by human ecologist at 11:54 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
Necessity might change that, just as it has for many, many non-white populations following a couple centuries of extremely intimate contact with Western Capitalism.
Perhaps once the self-fulfilling prophecy of making/raping the world whiter more clearly fails to pass, and learning non-english languages and ways of doing things becomes reasonably important simply because the sheer number of non-white non-english-speaking members in our species requires it, the impetus to build such things will magically appear just as it has for many other peoples' ancestors.
Perhaps then, after a meaningful effort by this species to understand itself as a species has actually been made, our susceptibility to indoctrination by disinformation will decrease too. It's almost as if choosing not to know things and being vulnerable to "disinformation" could be related. Who knows.
posted by human ecologist at 11:54 AM on March 21 [2 favorites]
this is akin to Trump and his "people say" thing. maybe we don't do that, if we can avoid it. maybe be specific about who, exactly, said the Americans were lying about the invasion of Ukraine.
Fair enough, I think you're right about that. Apologies for that. The war in Ukraine hit close to home and I've been in a general state of frustration and anger for a couple of years now. My brain isn't working as well as it used to. It's basically Tucker Carlson and Vladimir Putin swimming around a pool of their own diarrhea somewhere in my skull. Seeing straight is pretty much out of the question. The war has taken its toll, mentally.
posted by romanb at 12:23 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
Fair enough, I think you're right about that. Apologies for that. The war in Ukraine hit close to home and I've been in a general state of frustration and anger for a couple of years now. My brain isn't working as well as it used to. It's basically Tucker Carlson and Vladimir Putin swimming around a pool of their own diarrhea somewhere in my skull. Seeing straight is pretty much out of the question. The war has taken its toll, mentally.
posted by romanb at 12:23 PM on March 21 [4 favorites]
For the podcast-friendly, WBUR's On Point just released a show on How disinformation 'sabotages America.'
posted by Violet Blue at 12:58 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Violet Blue at 12:58 PM on March 21 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure you are providing terms that yield a viable alternative to the person you've responded toTo be clear, I think "Russian disinformation" as commonly formulated is a moral panic, it is not on me to propose a solution to a problem I think is overblown. When one accuses something of being "disinformation", there's an implicit assertion that the speaker is qualified to determine what is true (and it's implied whoever disagrees is a naive fool at best). It should be obvious why recipients of this message are rarely convinced. When I've tried to drill down on why something I thought was true was "disinformation", it almost always boils down to "because this supports their narrative!", not because they dispute the actual facts. And when one tries to actually define and combat it on a societal level, it becomes a nebulous mess and the proposed cures are worse than the poison. If you want my opinion, the only solution is a society where the influential people who generate, evaluate, and disseminate ideas value critical thinking and the truth. And since people are given influence by an audience who don't necessarily share these values, you can start to see the problem...
Anyways, earlier in the thread somebody suggested getting a journalism degree in order to better understand the world. Leaving aside the numerous veteran journalists who have bemoaned the dying profession and actively discourage aspiring journalists from pursuing one, I tracked it down an old interview I was reminded of:
“All these newspapers used to have foreign bureaus,” he said. “Now they don’t. They call us to explain to them what’s happening in Moscow and Cairo. Most of the outlets are reporting on world events from Washington. The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns. That’s a sea change. They literally know nothing.”Worth keeping in mind as somebody suggests we should just defer to our epistemic superiors who know better.
In this environment, Rhodes has become adept at ventriloquizing many people at once. Ned Price, Rhodes’s assistant, gave me a primer on how it’s done. The easiest way for the White House to shape the news, he explained, is from the briefing podiums, each of which has its own dedicated press corps. “But then there are sort of these force multipliers,” he said, adding, “We have our compadres, I will reach out to a couple people, and you know I wouldn’t want to name them — ”
“I can name them,” I said, ticking off a few names of prominent Washington reporters and columnists who often tweet in sync with White House messaging.
Price laughed. “I’ll say, ‘Hey, look, some people are spinning this narrative that this is a sign of American weakness,’ ” he continued, “but — ”
“In fact it’s a sign of strength!” I said, chuckling.
“And I’ll give them some color,” Price continued, “and the next thing I know, lots of these guys are in the dot-com publishing space, and have huge Twitter followings, and they’ll be putting this message out on their own.”
This is something different from old-fashioned spin, which tended to be an art best practiced in person. In a world where experienced reporters competed for scoops and where carrying water for the White House was a cause for shame, no matter which party was in power, it was much harder to sustain a “narrative” over any serious period of time. Now the most effectively weaponized 140-character idea or quote will almost always carry the day, and it is very difficult for even good reporters to necessarily know where the spin is coming from or why.
posted by ndr at 3:23 PM on March 21 [13 favorites]
ndr: flagged as fucking fantastic, because that comment says everything i wish i could say but i'm not eloquent enough.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:25 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:25 PM on March 21 [6 favorites]
Yes, ndr nails the moral panic aspect: When I've tried to drill down on why something I thought was true was "disinformation", it almost always boils down to "because this supports their narrative!", not because they dispute the actual facts.'
We do risk some wider war in Europe of course: Afaik the Ukraine war was caused by Russian ultra-nationalism, ala Alexander Dugin, who still hold considerable sway. As noted above, the CIA has become stupid, but if the west was smart, they'd counter this ultra-nationalism narative directly, by producing ideological alternatives written in Russian. Putin himself, and his advisors, would even be convinced if these texts were truthful & direct.
Putin's PhD thesis “Mineral And Raw Materials Resources And The Development Stratgey For The Russian Economy” discusses how the west exploited Russia for resources. We could turn this around on him:
Argue that peak oil places Russia into a strong poisiton, but that Russia should "take its ball and go home", in that they should disengage from trade with the west, and that fossil fuels are too valuble to export, except in exchange for tech transfer (provided by China). In fact, they risk everything by starting wars now, which everyone else still has oil, but they should instead conserve resources, and develop their internal economy for 50ish years.
Also, they should carefully reassess their nuclear weapons stockpile, so they can be sure the US cannot come take their oil. Fogbank anyone? Also, climate change creates a risk of China conquering eastern Russia, so they should play the US and China off one another, but they're fucking this up by invading Ukraine.
Any petro-state like Russia "taking its ball and going home" would be the last thing the US wants, but it's really what always makes sense for pedtro-states, and it especially makes sense for Russia. It also keeps more oil in the ground longer, so good for everyone else longer term.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:18 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
We do risk some wider war in Europe of course: Afaik the Ukraine war was caused by Russian ultra-nationalism, ala Alexander Dugin, who still hold considerable sway. As noted above, the CIA has become stupid, but if the west was smart, they'd counter this ultra-nationalism narative directly, by producing ideological alternatives written in Russian. Putin himself, and his advisors, would even be convinced if these texts were truthful & direct.
Putin's PhD thesis “Mineral And Raw Materials Resources And The Development Stratgey For The Russian Economy” discusses how the west exploited Russia for resources. We could turn this around on him:
Argue that peak oil places Russia into a strong poisiton, but that Russia should "take its ball and go home", in that they should disengage from trade with the west, and that fossil fuels are too valuble to export, except in exchange for tech transfer (provided by China). In fact, they risk everything by starting wars now, which everyone else still has oil, but they should instead conserve resources, and develop their internal economy for 50ish years.
Also, they should carefully reassess their nuclear weapons stockpile, so they can be sure the US cannot come take their oil. Fogbank anyone? Also, climate change creates a risk of China conquering eastern Russia, so they should play the US and China off one another, but they're fucking this up by invading Ukraine.
Any petro-state like Russia "taking its ball and going home" would be the last thing the US wants, but it's really what always makes sense for pedtro-states, and it especially makes sense for Russia. It also keeps more oil in the ground longer, so good for everyone else longer term.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:18 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
Putin's PhD thesis “Mineral And Raw Materials Resources And The Development Stratgey For The..."
did he even write that. Brookings says it's plagiarism as does radio free Europe, Washington Post, Time, The Atantic. Not rushing ya here but
you misunderstand the craft of stupidity for actual stupidity. this is a common assumption and quite confusing. I should provide at least 10 sources of information, you deserve it, but I'm tired right now.
have you ever seen a man Chase his own hat. read aloud the cat in the hat. publish a falsehood and call it a fact.
concerning the war, why produce propaganda when the ukrainians do it 10 times better than us, I haven't seen a personality that is dominated serious Western media attention as Zelinskyy has.
has. hmmm. dude
doesn't wear a suit and I think that's cool. we had a president that was an actor who in 1940 made a movie called Santa Fe in which a young Jeb Stewart and George Custer join forces to prevent the murderous rage of one John Brown. how did that work out for the nonfictional characters symbolizing the fictitious world.
Foreign Policy: "Paralyzed by free speech concerns, Western governments are loath to act."
MARCH 9, 2024,
All the right adjectives,
"As of 2023, the United States is still the single largest crude oil producer in the world, a position it has held since 2018."
American business School one enters finance. and when graduates, one learns to pronounce it finance.
In 2022, the United States imported about 8.33 million barrels per day (b/d) of petroleum from 80 countries....
In 2022, the United States exported about 9.52 million b/d of petroleum to 180 countries and 4 U.S. territories.
What is that about, Russia's petrol state dream fund is becoming cheaper by the day accepting cases of war or disaster... and greed I think we all can agree about greed.
but I have to totally agree at this juncture about your peak oil and the Russian market
50 year petroleum reserves. China making military moves into Russia. America is Rich with 33 trillion in debt. Russia is a force to be reckoned with. same ole/same ole from since 1983 it's just regurgitated with touches of the latest modernity and technological updates.
two armies in Kamchatka.
posted by clavdivs at 11:50 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
did he even write that. Brookings says it's plagiarism as does radio free Europe, Washington Post, Time, The Atantic. Not rushing ya here but
you misunderstand the craft of stupidity for actual stupidity. this is a common assumption and quite confusing. I should provide at least 10 sources of information, you deserve it, but I'm tired right now.
have you ever seen a man Chase his own hat. read aloud the cat in the hat. publish a falsehood and call it a fact.
concerning the war, why produce propaganda when the ukrainians do it 10 times better than us, I haven't seen a personality that is dominated serious Western media attention as Zelinskyy has.
has. hmmm. dude
doesn't wear a suit and I think that's cool. we had a president that was an actor who in 1940 made a movie called Santa Fe in which a young Jeb Stewart and George Custer join forces to prevent the murderous rage of one John Brown. how did that work out for the nonfictional characters symbolizing the fictitious world.
Foreign Policy: "Paralyzed by free speech concerns, Western governments are loath to act."
MARCH 9, 2024,
All the right adjectives,
"As of 2023, the United States is still the single largest crude oil producer in the world, a position it has held since 2018."
American business School one enters finance. and when graduates, one learns to pronounce it finance.
In 2022, the United States imported about 8.33 million barrels per day (b/d) of petroleum from 80 countries....
In 2022, the United States exported about 9.52 million b/d of petroleum to 180 countries and 4 U.S. territories.
What is that about, Russia's petrol state dream fund is becoming cheaper by the day accepting cases of war or disaster... and greed I think we all can agree about greed.
but I have to totally agree at this juncture about your peak oil and the Russian market
50 year petroleum reserves. China making military moves into Russia. America is Rich with 33 trillion in debt. Russia is a force to be reckoned with. same ole/same ole from since 1983 it's just regurgitated with touches of the latest modernity and technological updates.
two armies in Kamchatka.
posted by clavdivs at 11:50 PM on March 21 [2 favorites]
It's mostly irrelevant if Putin wrote his PhD thesis, because his advisors believe it, and likely he himself does.
Russia has an epic density of kleptocrats, but they still rule by ideology, like everybody does. And ideologies are essential for war. Ideologies can be shifted slightly, which then somewhat changes leaders behavior, even if it does not replace them.
"Russia's great destiny can more easily be realized after America collapses" would not be an unreasonable shift.
> "As of 2023, the United States is still the single largest crude oil producer in the world, a position it has held since 2018."
Yes, but entirely due to exploiting better oil extration technology, which makes sense in some places but not others. At some point we exhaust this technology, which Art Berman & others thinks happens realtively soon. As a species, we need the US to take this technology to its grave, so that others never use it.
In principle "the last one with oil wins" could mean the US tries to ensure others never get the last of their own oil, or claime it for itself with an increasing lack of success, while Russia tries to squirl away the last of its oil.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:15 AM on March 22
Russia has an epic density of kleptocrats, but they still rule by ideology, like everybody does. And ideologies are essential for war. Ideologies can be shifted slightly, which then somewhat changes leaders behavior, even if it does not replace them.
"Russia's great destiny can more easily be realized after America collapses" would not be an unreasonable shift.
> "As of 2023, the United States is still the single largest crude oil producer in the world, a position it has held since 2018."
Yes, but entirely due to exploiting better oil extration technology, which makes sense in some places but not others. At some point we exhaust this technology, which Art Berman & others thinks happens realtively soon. As a species, we need the US to take this technology to its grave, so that others never use it.
In principle "the last one with oil wins" could mean the US tries to ensure others never get the last of their own oil, or claime it for itself with an increasing lack of success, while Russia tries to squirl away the last of its oil.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:15 AM on March 22
Jared Kushner in the news for revealing his plans about Gaza as expensive beachfront. Their grand strategy of leveling Gaza will only succeed if they can also use it to blame Biden and deny their hand in it, establishing the planners as weird saviors.
posted by Brian B. at 6:01 AM on March 22
posted by Brian B. at 6:01 AM on March 22
ISIS attack in Moscow.
"Earlier this month, the US embassy in Russia said it was “monitoring reports that extremists have imminent plans to target large gatherings in Moscow,” including concerts. The embassy warned US citizens to avoid large gatherings.
In a speech Tuesday to Russia’s federal security agency, Putin called the embassy’s warnings about potential terror attacks in Moscow “provocative,” saying “these actions resemble outright blackmail and the intention to intimidate and destabilize our society.”
This is terrible and I dont see why Putin is blaming the messenger.
posted by clavdivs at 3:45 PM on March 22
"Earlier this month, the US embassy in Russia said it was “monitoring reports that extremists have imminent plans to target large gatherings in Moscow,” including concerts. The embassy warned US citizens to avoid large gatherings.
In a speech Tuesday to Russia’s federal security agency, Putin called the embassy’s warnings about potential terror attacks in Moscow “provocative,” saying “these actions resemble outright blackmail and the intention to intimidate and destabilize our society.”
This is terrible and I dont see why Putin is blaming the messenger.
posted by clavdivs at 3:45 PM on March 22
Because he can? And points the blame somewhere other than himself and the country he is the head of?
posted by Windopaene at 4:23 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 4:23 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
rather mendacious.
"On 7 March 2024, the FSB (Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation) announced that it had neutralized a terrorist cell linked to the Islamic State (IS) in Moscow, which had intended to attack a synagogue in the city."
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
"On 7 March 2024, the FSB (Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation) announced that it had neutralized a terrorist cell linked to the Islamic State (IS) in Moscow, which had intended to attack a synagogue in the city."
posted by clavdivs at 4:38 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
I’m sure some of our resident Max Blumenthals will be along shortly to blame the west for this too
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:00 PM on March 22
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:00 PM on March 22
Why?
posted by cendawanita at 5:04 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:04 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
Because idiocy
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:12 PM on March 22
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:12 PM on March 22
That's very brave of you to admit.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:13 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:13 PM on March 22 [7 favorites]
Because idiocy
I see.
Well, I did say Russia has as much of an issue with separatists and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, which makes the angle with Hamas in disinfo campaigns if there are opportunistic (not to mention, as I've mentioned, the physical meetings and diplomacy was with Palestinians in general including Fatah. Though that's gone cold now) but unlikely as a strategic plank. Feel free to ctrl-f, it felt like I was the one loony person pointing out the obvious. (Me and the random CIA analyst prepping the brief I guess)
Armenian media are blaming Azeris, there's russian media blaming right-wing cells, if you want to have a sense of how not applicable American/western popular understanding of what's going down.
posted by cendawanita at 5:19 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
I see.
Well, I did say Russia has as much of an issue with separatists and Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, which makes the angle with Hamas in disinfo campaigns if there are opportunistic (not to mention, as I've mentioned, the physical meetings and diplomacy was with Palestinians in general including Fatah. Though that's gone cold now) but unlikely as a strategic plank. Feel free to ctrl-f, it felt like I was the one loony person pointing out the obvious. (Me and the random CIA analyst prepping the brief I guess)
Armenian media are blaming Azeris, there's russian media blaming right-wing cells, if you want to have a sense of how not applicable American/western popular understanding of what's going down.
posted by cendawanita at 5:19 PM on March 22 [6 favorites]
More seriously, it isn't exactly a stretch to blame the US for ISIS. They are a direct result of the invasion of Iraq and the Syrian civil war. Although Russia definitely contributed to the latter as well.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:20 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:20 PM on March 22 [5 favorites]
"ISIS-K has been fixated on Russia for the past two years,” frequently criticizing President Vladimir V. Putin in its propaganda, said Colin P. Clarke, a counterterrorism analyst at the Soufan Group, a security consulting firm based in New York. “ISIS-K accuses the Kremlin of having Muslim blood in its hands, referencing Moscow’s interventions in Afghanistan, Chechnya and Syria".posted by Violet Blue at 6:19 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
Though that's gone cold now) but unlikely as a strategic plank. Feel free to ctrl-f, it felt like I was the
You lost me And that's rare unless it was internal dialogue equivocating Hamas with ISIS. or Jahafil Al-Tawhid Wal-Jihad fi Filastin?
More seriously, it isn't exactly a stretch to blame the US for ISIS
you're not being serious, you being facile go to Wikipedia and look at the fight against Islamic State and look at the amount of countries that have fought the Islamic State over the years. it's a complete stretch as isis was formed in 1999 as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad. By Zarqawi. At which point in time do you choose that isis was created by the United States... Iraq, he was there, beheading, assassination, chemical weapons,etc. Zarqawi was fighting everybody since he was a kid.
The Master Plan
Lawrence Wright.
one of the finest Western analysis of al-Qaeda and Zarqawi for its time and still a chilling read.
but you're saying Al-Qaeda didn't do it.
there is always blood in the gun oil.
posted by clavdivs at 7:42 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
You lost me And that's rare unless it was internal dialogue equivocating Hamas with ISIS. or Jahafil Al-Tawhid Wal-Jihad fi Filastin?
More seriously, it isn't exactly a stretch to blame the US for ISIS
you're not being serious, you being facile go to Wikipedia and look at the fight against Islamic State and look at the amount of countries that have fought the Islamic State over the years. it's a complete stretch as isis was formed in 1999 as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad. By Zarqawi. At which point in time do you choose that isis was created by the United States... Iraq, he was there, beheading, assassination, chemical weapons,etc. Zarqawi was fighting everybody since he was a kid.
The Master Plan
Lawrence Wright.
one of the finest Western analysis of al-Qaeda and Zarqawi for its time and still a chilling read.
but you're saying Al-Qaeda didn't do it.
there is always blood in the gun oil.
posted by clavdivs at 7:42 PM on March 22 [1 favorite]
And that's rare unless it was internal dialogue equivocating Hamas with ISIS. or Jahafil Al-Tawhid Wal-Jihad fi Filastin?
If I get you correctly, the equivocation isn't from me - the general position internationally (and in this FPP) that Hamas is a terrorist organisation is what I'm speaking to, tho like my country Russia doesn't follow that designation (I've read it's to do with their relations with Iran), but what I meant more specifically is that much more than the US, Russia has been facing actual physical risk of separatists and Islamic terrorists (as we're seeing now). If they are angling to be nicer faces to Palestinians it's towards Palestinians as a whole.
"Hamas is ISIS" is also a currently active talking point if you follow pro-Israel (esp domestically and in the diaspora) discourse.
posted by cendawanita at 11:26 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
If I get you correctly, the equivocation isn't from me - the general position internationally (and in this FPP) that Hamas is a terrorist organisation is what I'm speaking to, tho like my country Russia doesn't follow that designation (I've read it's to do with their relations with Iran), but what I meant more specifically is that much more than the US, Russia has been facing actual physical risk of separatists and Islamic terrorists (as we're seeing now). If they are angling to be nicer faces to Palestinians it's towards Palestinians as a whole.
"Hamas is ISIS" is also a currently active talking point if you follow pro-Israel (esp domestically and in the diaspora) discourse.
posted by cendawanita at 11:26 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Armenian media are blaming Azeris, there's russian media blaming right-wing cells,
The Russians are already televising interrogations with a couple of the attackers, one apparently speaking in Tajik, so perhaps some level of clarity will emerge beyond the immediate claims/counterclaims.
(As an aside, I'm always fascinated by such different approaches to investigation of these kinds of attacks. The US and European approach is typically to disappear the suspect into either a regular police interrogation system, or sometimes into the parallel "black site" system, and then they only surface much later after the desired information has been wrung out of them. But in some other countries, like Russia, the first priority is to show the suspect on camera confessing, usually to the official version of events. Different approaches with different goals; both seem to work politically if not necessarily in terms of public safety.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:20 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
The Russians are already televising interrogations with a couple of the attackers, one apparently speaking in Tajik, so perhaps some level of clarity will emerge beyond the immediate claims/counterclaims.
(As an aside, I'm always fascinated by such different approaches to investigation of these kinds of attacks. The US and European approach is typically to disappear the suspect into either a regular police interrogation system, or sometimes into the parallel "black site" system, and then they only surface much later after the desired information has been wrung out of them. But in some other countries, like Russia, the first priority is to show the suspect on camera confessing, usually to the official version of events. Different approaches with different goals; both seem to work politically if not necessarily in terms of public safety.)
posted by Dip Flash at 6:20 AM on March 23 [1 favorite]
uhh, ya. notice when the prisoners are in those I want to call them cages but they seem more like a armored dunk tanks generally with fresh faced guards.
ISIS-K, al-Baghdadis old branch as far as I've read, isis k is not including any message for the support of Palestinian people as in retaliation.
Death toll has risen, this is horrible. Putin going to go ballistic on someone
posted by clavdivs at 1:48 PM on March 23
ISIS-K, al-Baghdadis old branch as far as I've read, isis k is not including any message for the support of Palestinian people as in retaliation.
Death toll has risen, this is horrible. Putin going to go ballistic on someone
posted by clavdivs at 1:48 PM on March 23
Well, with what's happening in Gaza, I look forward to seeing how the "self-defence" argument is going to be applied and how that's received.
posted by cendawanita at 2:58 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 2:58 PM on March 23 [3 favorites]
You do realize this would be the 10th ceasefire/pause/truce between Israel and Hamas since 2008, not the first, right?
posted by Violet Blue at 3:06 PM on March 23
posted by Violet Blue at 3:06 PM on March 23
I was reading about that, too, it's a fascinating policy, and from what I'm seeing I'm pleased that it exists.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:33 PM on March 23
posted by Violet Blue at 3:33 PM on March 23
Well, with what's happening in Gaza, I look forward to seeing how the "self-defence" argument is going to be applied and how that's received.
Given that it seems like Putin's approach appears to be to blame the Ukrainians, and Russia is already at war with them, it does seem a bit complex as to how that would be applied, particularly given the likely falsity of that accusation.
And also foolish, if the Russians don't also take concrete steps to deal with their ongoing ISIS-ish violence/separatist problem which is clearly an ongoing issue that will only worsen. They aren't doing all that hot in Ukraine despite the US's failing to assist recently, and I have my doubts about their capacity to take on another threat simultaneously if any of their separatist issues heated up beyond occasional moments of violence.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:49 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
Given that it seems like Putin's approach appears to be to blame the Ukrainians, and Russia is already at war with them, it does seem a bit complex as to how that would be applied, particularly given the likely falsity of that accusation.
And also foolish, if the Russians don't also take concrete steps to deal with their ongoing ISIS-ish violence/separatist problem which is clearly an ongoing issue that will only worsen. They aren't doing all that hot in Ukraine despite the US's failing to assist recently, and I have my doubts about their capacity to take on another threat simultaneously if any of their separatist issues heated up beyond occasional moments of violence.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:49 PM on March 23 [1 favorite]
You do realize this would be the 10th ceasefire/pause/truce between Israel and Hamas since 2008, not the first, right?
So... The occupation and siege will just be an interminable drain on resources with no security assurances in sight? Good lessons for Russia.
posted by cendawanita at 9:05 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
So... The occupation and siege will just be an interminable drain on resources with no security assurances in sight? Good lessons for Russia.
posted by cendawanita at 9:05 PM on March 23 [4 favorites]
Comment on ex-twitter:
"I've honestly never seen a terrorist organization fight so hard to take credit for its actions. ISIS fighting russian disinformation was not in my bingo card."
posted by Kabanos at 6:15 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
"I've honestly never seen a terrorist organization fight so hard to take credit for its actions. ISIS fighting russian disinformation was not in my bingo card."
posted by Kabanos at 6:15 AM on March 24 [1 favorite]
Violet Blue Yes. And?
How does that justify ongoing genocide in Gaza?
posted by sotonohito at 11:17 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
How does that justify ongoing genocide in Gaza?
posted by sotonohito at 11:17 AM on March 24 [6 favorites]
Do you talk about the "hostages" too, Sotonohito?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:54 AM on March 25
posted by Violet Blue at 6:54 AM on March 25
Just to clarify and make sure I'm not leaping to conclusions or strawmanning or putting words in people's mouths, what exactly are you saying?
I ask because the only way I can prase what you've so it makes any sense at all in this context would require a point of view arguing that genocide of over 1 million completely innocent people is a perfectly rational and justified response to a militant group oppressing said people taking less than 100 completely innocent Jewish people as hostages.
I am certain you are not expressing a worldview so monstrously ethnocentric and callous towards innocent Gazan lives, so I assume I misunderstanding something. May I request that you rephrase your position here using less snark and more clarity?
posted by sotonohito at 10:19 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I ask because the only way I can prase what you've so it makes any sense at all in this context would require a point of view arguing that genocide of over 1 million completely innocent people is a perfectly rational and justified response to a militant group oppressing said people taking less than 100 completely innocent Jewish people as hostages.
I am certain you are not expressing a worldview so monstrously ethnocentric and callous towards innocent Gazan lives, so I assume I misunderstanding something. May I request that you rephrase your position here using less snark and more clarity?
posted by sotonohito at 10:19 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
To quote @Dip Flash in amended form:
Just like it's possible to keep two ideas in one's head at once, it's possible to consider one bad thing (say, Palestinian loss of life), and simultaneously have the knowledge that there is another bad thing (say, Israel's hostage situation), without immediately whatabouting the two.posted by Violet Blue at 11:43 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
It is, but treating them as remotely comparable suggests something very wrong with how the situation is being understood.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:08 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:08 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
“If this is what passes for the left today, God help us," Sasha Abramsky writes in this week's Nation magazine about the mass resignations at Guernica magazine in response to Guernica's publication of a piece by an Israeli peace activist. "Guernica’s cringeworthy backpedaling is redolent of the self-denunciations of Stalin’s purge victims or the coerced linguistic self-flagellations of academics during Mao’s Cultural Revolution. There’s no effort at genuine debate, no room for competing opinions, no space for historical nuance or complexity; there’s simply a demand that the party line be followed and that those who don’t be immediately censored.”
posted by Violet Blue at 1:14 PM on March 25
posted by Violet Blue at 1:14 PM on March 25
I'll own that. The party line is no genocide, no ethnic cleansing, no starving a people as collective punishment.
That seems like a fair demand, and I'm not ashamed to make it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:44 PM on March 25 [9 favorites]
That seems like a fair demand, and I'm not ashamed to make it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:44 PM on March 25 [9 favorites]
OK, so again though I'm not understanding your meaning other than in rather negative terms.
I'm quite certain you had no intention of comparing opposition to genocide to Mao's Cultural Revolution, for example, yet the roundabout quote heavy indirect way you're talking makes it quite difficult to tell what you're actually trying to say.
To clarify my own position and provide an example rather than the original two word reply I had to your comment about ceasefires.
I take the position that the known pattern of Hamas ignoring or breaking ceasefires is irrelevant to the question of whether Israel will stop bombing Gaza before starvation kills around a million innocent people.
It does not matter whether Hamas will abide by a ceasefire or not. There are a million lives at stake here.
I value Jewish and Gazan lives exactly the same.
I reject utterly the proposition that it is morally acceptable to bomb civilians in hopes that maybe, there might be a soldier somewhere near those civilians. People don't bomb refugee camps, food deliveries, and people trying to get food being delivered because they suspect there might be a soldier somewhere in the crowd. People do that because they want to kill refugees and starving people.
And finally, regardless of intent the simple fact is that as long as Israel is bombing Gaza and killing people delivering relief supplies to the Gazan people then there is going to be a genocide via starvation.
Based on all that, I believe an immediate, no conditions, ceasefire is a moral imperitive. That moral imperitive exists entirely independent of any questions about historic ceasefires or Jewish hostages.
When the issue is the potental death of around one million people, basic morality requires that it override all other concerns. We can talk hostages after everyone in Gaza is fed and will continue to be fed for the forseeable future. We can talk about ceasefires and how to deal with Hamas once everyone in Gaza is fed and will continue to be fed.
I do indeed have a bright, sharp, uncrossable line there: genocide is wrong. If you don't then I think you should reevaluate your ethical philosophy.
posted by sotonohito at 1:52 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I'm quite certain you had no intention of comparing opposition to genocide to Mao's Cultural Revolution, for example, yet the roundabout quote heavy indirect way you're talking makes it quite difficult to tell what you're actually trying to say.
To clarify my own position and provide an example rather than the original two word reply I had to your comment about ceasefires.
I take the position that the known pattern of Hamas ignoring or breaking ceasefires is irrelevant to the question of whether Israel will stop bombing Gaza before starvation kills around a million innocent people.
It does not matter whether Hamas will abide by a ceasefire or not. There are a million lives at stake here.
I value Jewish and Gazan lives exactly the same.
I reject utterly the proposition that it is morally acceptable to bomb civilians in hopes that maybe, there might be a soldier somewhere near those civilians. People don't bomb refugee camps, food deliveries, and people trying to get food being delivered because they suspect there might be a soldier somewhere in the crowd. People do that because they want to kill refugees and starving people.
And finally, regardless of intent the simple fact is that as long as Israel is bombing Gaza and killing people delivering relief supplies to the Gazan people then there is going to be a genocide via starvation.
Based on all that, I believe an immediate, no conditions, ceasefire is a moral imperitive. That moral imperitive exists entirely independent of any questions about historic ceasefires or Jewish hostages.
When the issue is the potental death of around one million people, basic morality requires that it override all other concerns. We can talk hostages after everyone in Gaza is fed and will continue to be fed for the forseeable future. We can talk about ceasefires and how to deal with Hamas once everyone in Gaza is fed and will continue to be fed.
I do indeed have a bright, sharp, uncrossable line there: genocide is wrong. If you don't then I think you should reevaluate your ethical philosophy.
posted by sotonohito at 1:52 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I've read Chen's essay and the responses to it. It isn't war crimes apologia or an attempt at white washing genocide.
It also shouldn't be being published in Guernica right now. It is fundamentally about the point of view of an Israeli at the fringes of the conflict, her complex feelings and the virtuous things she is doing. There is a lot of time devoted to explanations of how she has Palestinian friends and drives Palestinian children to hospital.
What there is none of is any anger. She is very sad about hostages and sad about people dying by bombing. She is sad the Israeli poets she knows (and makes sure to tell us she knows) are likely dead or in Israeli prison. But those are just things that happen. There is no sense of outrage at the injustice and cruelty. Everyone is just equally passive victims of a system no one gets a say in.
There is a genocide going on right now. There are millions affected by it. The point of view of a nice middle class Israeli lady is not the one we need to hear. We don't need her complex feelings about the conflict. Not in a publication that intends to show solidarity with colonized peoples and the victims of genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:52 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
It also shouldn't be being published in Guernica right now. It is fundamentally about the point of view of an Israeli at the fringes of the conflict, her complex feelings and the virtuous things she is doing. There is a lot of time devoted to explanations of how she has Palestinian friends and drives Palestinian children to hospital.
What there is none of is any anger. She is very sad about hostages and sad about people dying by bombing. She is sad the Israeli poets she knows (and makes sure to tell us she knows) are likely dead or in Israeli prison. But those are just things that happen. There is no sense of outrage at the injustice and cruelty. Everyone is just equally passive victims of a system no one gets a say in.
There is a genocide going on right now. There are millions affected by it. The point of view of a nice middle class Israeli lady is not the one we need to hear. We don't need her complex feelings about the conflict. Not in a publication that intends to show solidarity with colonized peoples and the victims of genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:52 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
There's sort of a gap between not urgently "needing" it right now as much as other discourse may be needed, and asserting that it "shouldn't" be published right now.
If it is in fact being published instead of something else, that has more to do with the editors. Likewise, pieces that could be published alongside it, but aren't.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:02 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
If it is in fact being published instead of something else, that has more to do with the editors. Likewise, pieces that could be published alongside it, but aren't.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:02 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
There's sort of a gap between not urgently "needing" it right now as much as other discourse may be needed, and asserting that it "shouldn't" be published right now.
I'm not sure there is. What points of view to center right now as the genocide is happening is an important question with real consequences. Especially for one of the few publications with any reach that might reflect the point of view of the actual victims.
And I think the volunteers working for the magazine are the right people to decide whether their publication is the place for a work like this. And they have done so.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:13 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure there is. What points of view to center right now as the genocide is happening is an important question with real consequences. Especially for one of the few publications with any reach that might reflect the point of view of the actual victims.
And I think the volunteers working for the magazine are the right people to decide whether their publication is the place for a work like this. And they have done so.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:13 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless yet be determined to make them otherwise.”
-F Scott Fitzgerald.
or, or
“You need all kinds of influences, including negative ones, to challenge what you believe in.”
— Bill Murray.
I see the stuff going around that Russian soldiers have been torturing the isis terrorists in public and behind closed doors led to this story today which I hold skepticism.
"ISIS Issues Fresh Threat To Putin: Reports"
posted by clavdivs at 3:51 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
-F Scott Fitzgerald.
or, or
“You need all kinds of influences, including negative ones, to challenge what you believe in.”
— Bill Murray.
I see the stuff going around that Russian soldiers have been torturing the isis terrorists in public and behind closed doors led to this story today which I hold skepticism.
"ISIS Issues Fresh Threat To Putin: Reports"
posted by clavdivs at 3:51 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
A number of writers (including at least two Palestinians) have in fact pulled pieces from Guernica in the wake of Chen's piece being published, and something like 9/10 of the magazine's all-volunteer editorial staff resigned. (Seriously; here's their masthead as of January; here's their masthead today.)
Writers & staff are, as The Manwich Horror notes, the constituencies best placed to decide whether Guernica fucked up or not, and they have overwhelmingly done so.
(Also, i do respectfully disagree with TMH in regard to it being genocide apologia. It is! It's just the Nice Liberal kind of genocide apologia where it's all a tragedy and nobody can possibly be held accountable for Israel inflicting their "good booms"‡ on Palestine until the Palestinians are all erased.)
‡ Yes, this is a real phrase from the article; Chen quotes a friend of hers, an Israeli mother, who tells her frightened child that the sounds of the bombs eradicating Palestine are "good booms".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
Writers & staff are, as The Manwich Horror notes, the constituencies best placed to decide whether Guernica fucked up or not, and they have overwhelmingly done so.
(Also, i do respectfully disagree with TMH in regard to it being genocide apologia. It is! It's just the Nice Liberal kind of genocide apologia where it's all a tragedy and nobody can possibly be held accountable for Israel inflicting their "good booms"‡ on Palestine until the Palestinians are all erased.)
‡ Yes, this is a real phrase from the article; Chen quotes a friend of hers, an Israeli mother, who tells her frightened child that the sounds of the bombs eradicating Palestine are "good booms".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
LOL at the idea that magazine workers voluntarily resigning from their jobs in protest is "redolent of the self-denunciations of Stalin’s purge victims or the coerced linguistic self-flagellations of academics during Mao’s Cultural Revolution". This is disingenuous horseshit.
We don't have to agree about Palestine or politics, but the editors of Guernica are not Stalin - who even IS Stalin in this analogy?
posted by latkes at 4:20 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
We don't have to agree about Palestine or politics, but the editors of Guernica are not Stalin - who even IS Stalin in this analogy?
posted by latkes at 4:20 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
latkes: while it's no less laughable either way, i think it's the retraction of the essay, rather than the resignations, that's being described as Stalinesque. Leadership did in fact retract the essay with an apology, after several writers pulled pieces and 90% of the editorial staff left. Presumably they retracted it because they genuinely did come to realize that they fucked up, not because they were "coerced" by … people voluntarily withdrawing their labor.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:47 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:47 PM on March 25 [4 favorites]
what makes this sort of ironic is that Guernica would not be allowed to publish under Stalin or cultural revolution.
the magazine takes its name from Picasso's masterpiece Guernica "is to painting what Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is to music: a cultural icon that speaks to mankind not only against war but also of hope and peace. It is a reference when speaking about genocide from El Salvador to Bosnia."
-Alejandro Escalona.
if the piece that was censored was going to be controversial for the magazines Mission statement, why did the editors publish it in the first place. I thought the piece itself was good. all voices that express doubt, pain, bewilderment of a situation that's taking place within their country that is a war crime, than it is relevant, interjecting that someone should have massive anger included to the article seems disingenuous is it denies the author that chance to have that anger it also ignores that sometimes people are in a State of shock or disbelief at what their country is doing. denial is a strong drug.
I generally don't agree with the Stalin or mao reference especially coming from the nation and words expressed in hyperbole should also be listened too.
in 1967 when Detroit had its riots, my father helped shuttle supplies and one incident, his car was attacked and became angry because he turned around and drove straight home after delivering the supplies at the side of the road. he wasn't mad at the people who threw bottles at the car he was mad at himself for the car being damaged. when he realized the juxtaposition of his moral compass he doubled down and returned the next day but was stopped by a military checkpoint.
the situation does not compare anything to what's going on in Gaza it's more of a comparative analysis on one's feelings when they're trying to help or feel helpless.
posted by clavdivs at 5:02 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
the magazine takes its name from Picasso's masterpiece Guernica "is to painting what Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is to music: a cultural icon that speaks to mankind not only against war but also of hope and peace. It is a reference when speaking about genocide from El Salvador to Bosnia."
-Alejandro Escalona.
if the piece that was censored was going to be controversial for the magazines Mission statement, why did the editors publish it in the first place. I thought the piece itself was good. all voices that express doubt, pain, bewilderment of a situation that's taking place within their country that is a war crime, than it is relevant, interjecting that someone should have massive anger included to the article seems disingenuous is it denies the author that chance to have that anger it also ignores that sometimes people are in a State of shock or disbelief at what their country is doing. denial is a strong drug.
I generally don't agree with the Stalin or mao reference especially coming from the nation and words expressed in hyperbole should also be listened too.
in 1967 when Detroit had its riots, my father helped shuttle supplies and one incident, his car was attacked and became angry because he turned around and drove straight home after delivering the supplies at the side of the road. he wasn't mad at the people who threw bottles at the car he was mad at himself for the car being damaged. when he realized the juxtaposition of his moral compass he doubled down and returned the next day but was stopped by a military checkpoint.
the situation does not compare anything to what's going on in Gaza it's more of a comparative analysis on one's feelings when they're trying to help or feel helpless.
posted by clavdivs at 5:02 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Look, I'm sure everyone is well-intentioned in here, and many are well-intentioned out there. We don't have to agree on everything, but I do feel an unduely aggressive pounce anytime I say anything even mildly pro-Israel. The war in Israel-Gaza has had secondary effects in many countries, not least in the United States — and they haven't been pretty.
posted by Violet Blue at 5:03 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
US-based advocacy groups are reporting a sustained spike in hate incidents against Jewish and Muslim individuals since the outbreak of war between Israel and Hamas. The Anti-Defamation League found that in the eight weeks since the Oct. 7 Hamas attack, antisemitic incidents ... increased 337%," with 2,031 incidents.
The Council on American-Islamic Relations also reported an increase in Islamophobic incidents. Between October 7 and December 2, CAIR recorded a 2,171 reports of bias or requests for help 172% more than the 2022 two-month average.Both groups told CNN they're experiencing a growing fear of bigotry and hatred in the wake of the Hamas attack, and you can certainly feel it if you're a member of one of those groups. As I've said elsewhere, I think it's important that there has been strong advocacy for the Palestinians. It is long overdue. But if the fervent condemn the actors as well as the action, the spillover effect adds to the hate and negativity to no good end.
posted by Violet Blue at 5:03 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Well, yes. I would also, for instance, be hostile to a mefite expressing "pro-Belgian-Congo" or "pro-East-India-Company" sentiment.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:15 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:15 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
clavdivs:
if the piece that was censored was going to be controversial for the magazines Mission statement, why did the editors publish it in the first place.
Per at least a couple of the staff who resigned (including the co-publisher of the magazine), the piece did not go through normal editorial channels before publication. It's pretty clear that it was pushed through by one high-up person without consultation.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:21 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
if the piece that was censored was going to be controversial for the magazines Mission statement, why did the editors publish it in the first place.
Per at least a couple of the staff who resigned (including the co-publisher of the magazine), the piece did not go through normal editorial channels before publication. It's pretty clear that it was pushed through by one high-up person without consultation.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:21 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
well I can also be hostile towards any country at any time in any place for their war crimes and reiterate them over and over again. but I think that's a derail because what we're doing is lumping in other atrocities without any analysis, historical context, or what we have learned from those situations. I think you're in flaming the situation and I think this is what violet blue is alluding too.
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 5:24 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
It's pretty clear that it was pushed through by one high-up person without consultation.
to rerail a conversation, kind of like Pravda yeah.
posted by clavdivs at 5:28 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
to rerail a conversation, kind of like Pravda yeah.
posted by clavdivs at 5:28 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
y'all need to get your analogies straight. Was publishing the piece in the first place Stalinist, or was retracting it Stalinist?
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:36 PM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:36 PM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Oh, and speaking of Russian disinformation, the ostensible topic of this post: Russia has been absolutely flooding the zone on social media (i'm seeing a LOT of it on Twitter, and i'm sure it's happening elsewhere too) with memes in multiple languages (i've seen English, French, and Spanish) casting blame either explicitly or implicitly on Britain and Ukraine for the concert attack the other day, completely omitting that ISIS-K has claimed responsibility.
I've never denied that Russia (like all governments) uses propaganda and disinformation.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:45 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I've never denied that Russia (like all governments) uses propaganda and disinformation.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:45 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I've never denied that Russia (like all governments) uses propaganda and disinformation
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Was publishing the piece in the first place Stalinist, or was retracting it Stalinist?
cum hoc ergo propter hoc
posted by clavdivs at 6:19 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Was publishing the piece in the first place Stalinist, or was retracting it Stalinist?
cum hoc ergo propter hoc
posted by clavdivs at 6:19 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Wow! The Moscow attacks provide an amazingly quick lesson in a propaganda-driven blame game. The Kremlin crowd blamed Ukraine for it. The Russian Telegram crowd blamed Tajikistan. The Russia Today head said the West was trying to convince the world that ISIS was behind it, when actually, it was the U.S. and Ukraine. Ukraine, meanwhile, argued that it was the work of Putin, eager to provide a pretext for an acceleration of the war.
posted by Violet Blue at 7:07 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
posted by Violet Blue at 7:07 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Spinning Wheel got to go 'round
Talkin' 'bout your troubles
It's a cryin' sin.
Ride a painted pony
Let the Spinning Wheel spin
posted by clavdivs at 8:03 PM on March 25
Talkin' 'bout your troubles
It's a cryin' sin.
Ride a painted pony
Let the Spinning Wheel spin
posted by clavdivs at 8:03 PM on March 25
We really are at a global nadir of leadership, a slough of evil when Isis/daesh plaintively try to claim their horror (& Israel commits genocide - while NZ's new christo-fascist govt moves to destroy nature).
Several times recently, with Gaza, Moscow, others, Joy Division's Atrocity Exhibition* has come to mind - musicians and poets are the real prophets.
* Lyrics alone suffice, need a bright sunny day to listen to that track.
posted by unearthed at 8:09 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Several times recently, with Gaza, Moscow, others, Joy Division's Atrocity Exhibition* has come to mind - musicians and poets are the real prophets.
* Lyrics alone suffice, need a bright sunny day to listen to that track.
posted by unearthed at 8:09 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
This is terrible and I dont see why Putin is blaming the messenger.
This post is about Russian disinformation.
posted by orange ball at 9:17 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
This post is about Russian disinformation.
posted by orange ball at 9:17 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
In principle, ISIS should learn to make hash commitments, but against this level of propoganda blame game even that might not suffice. lol
posted by jeffburdges at 9:47 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 9:47 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
This is terrible and I dont see why Putin is blaming the messenger.
This post is about Russian disinformation.
In the trade, this is called a provocative elongation. It reorientates the original comment containing two diametrically opposed ideas and conflating them into one amalgamation namely to have the original quote expanded to further explain.
In "diplomacy" of condolence, one of the central tenants is to raise your shoulder and ask an innocent question all the while Madman flutter their jaws spitting gerbil food that no one's going to buy because he's waging an illlegal War.
.
posted by clavdivs at 11:22 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
This post is about Russian disinformation.
In the trade, this is called a provocative elongation. It reorientates the original comment containing two diametrically opposed ideas and conflating them into one amalgamation namely to have the original quote expanded to further explain.
In "diplomacy" of condolence, one of the central tenants is to raise your shoulder and ask an innocent question all the while Madman flutter their jaws spitting gerbil food that no one's going to buy because he's waging an illlegal War.
.
posted by clavdivs at 11:22 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
What trade? Not many results coming up for "provocative elongation", although it is a very funny phrase.
posted by sagc at 4:13 AM on March 26
posted by sagc at 4:13 AM on March 26
How does that justify ongoing genocide in Gaza?
posted by sotonohito at 11:17 AM on March 24 [4 favorites −] [⚑]
Do you talk about the "hostages" too, Sotonohito?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:54 AM on March 25 [+] [⚑]
Am I missing something? This is not "anything even mildly pro-Israel.". This is deflecting straight from genocide into hostages. I must be missing readings here; how can this be interpreted as not suggesting that the genocide will continue until the hostage situation is addressed?
I don't think the food and meds blockade is helping the hostages. I don't see this posted yet: Israeli hostage dies in Gaza due to lack of medicine, food (MEM)
“We announce the death of the Zionist captive Yejiv Bukhattaf, 34, due to shortages of medicine and food,” Al-Qassam stated via Telegram.
“We previously warned that enemy captives suffer from the same conditions as our people; hunger, deprivation, shortages of food and medicine, and that illness now threatens the lives of many of them,” the armed wing added
I think that if you take someone captive you have a very high level of duty to ensure their good health, but if there's no food, there's no food.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:30 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 11:17 AM on March 24 [4 favorites −] [⚑]
Do you talk about the "hostages" too, Sotonohito?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:54 AM on March 25 [+] [⚑]
Am I missing something? This is not "anything even mildly pro-Israel.". This is deflecting straight from genocide into hostages. I must be missing readings here; how can this be interpreted as not suggesting that the genocide will continue until the hostage situation is addressed?
I don't think the food and meds blockade is helping the hostages. I don't see this posted yet: Israeli hostage dies in Gaza due to lack of medicine, food (MEM)
“We announce the death of the Zionist captive Yejiv Bukhattaf, 34, due to shortages of medicine and food,” Al-Qassam stated via Telegram.
“We previously warned that enemy captives suffer from the same conditions as our people; hunger, deprivation, shortages of food and medicine, and that illness now threatens the lives of many of them,” the armed wing added
I think that if you take someone captive you have a very high level of duty to ensure their good health, but if there's no food, there's no food.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:30 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
Violet Blue It seems almost as if there are parallel conversations going on here, and perhaps that's where you're getting the perception that being "pro-Israael" is viewed as bad by the horrible left?
See, I'm trying to talk about a genocide, you know, an entire population being shattered, killed, expelled, and their former land and livelihood utterly demolished.
You seem to want to have a high level erudite sort of academically disinterested and emotionless talk about nations and their "right to exist" (whatever that means). Or you want to talk about how you think Israel should exist or has good reasons to exist. Or something.
I'm utterly baffled that you seem be framing this as a pro-Israel vs anti-Israel debate [1]. As if you think it's necessary to counter (? wtf?) people syaing "it is wrong for Israel to commit genocide" with "pro-Israel" talk about self determination or something.
It's like... if we were in 1940 and talking about how it really is pretty awful for Japan to be brutally conquering most of East Asia and committing all sorts of war crimes and you keep popping up to remind us that Japan also has really great cuisine because you thought it was necessary to counter all the stuff about Japan's war crimes with "pro-Japan" talk.
The fact that you see any need to "counter" the fact that Israel is committing genocide with "pro-Israel" stuff is really disturbing.
[1] If you'd told me two years ago that I'd be having a DEBATE over the morality of genocide I'd have said you were bonkers.
posted by sotonohito at 6:41 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
See, I'm trying to talk about a genocide, you know, an entire population being shattered, killed, expelled, and their former land and livelihood utterly demolished.
You seem to want to have a high level erudite sort of academically disinterested and emotionless talk about nations and their "right to exist" (whatever that means). Or you want to talk about how you think Israel should exist or has good reasons to exist. Or something.
I'm utterly baffled that you seem be framing this as a pro-Israel vs anti-Israel debate [1]. As if you think it's necessary to counter (? wtf?) people syaing "it is wrong for Israel to commit genocide" with "pro-Israel" talk about self determination or something.
It's like... if we were in 1940 and talking about how it really is pretty awful for Japan to be brutally conquering most of East Asia and committing all sorts of war crimes and you keep popping up to remind us that Japan also has really great cuisine because you thought it was necessary to counter all the stuff about Japan's war crimes with "pro-Japan" talk.
The fact that you see any need to "counter" the fact that Israel is committing genocide with "pro-Israel" stuff is really disturbing.
[1] If you'd told me two years ago that I'd be having a DEBATE over the morality of genocide I'd have said you were bonkers.
posted by sotonohito at 6:41 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
Violet Blue It seems almost as if there are parallel conversations going on here,
now I'm starting to backtrack comment. I realize this is between you and violet blue but I'm confused as to what brought upon:
Violet Blue Yes. And?
How does that justify ongoing genocide in Gaza?
posted by sotonohito at 2:17 PM on March 24
was it
"You do realize this would be the 10th ceasefire/pause/truce between Israel and Hamas since 2008, not the first, right?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:06 PM on March"
if this is the comment of contention as I see the previous ones do not merit that kind of follow-up question.
normally I wouldn't ask that and all I'm looking for is that the correct timeline of comment and rebuttal.
Just saying it for the sake of clarity with no further comment where within.
What trade? Not many results coming up for "provocative elongation", although it is a very funny phrase.
posted by sagc at 7:13 AM on March 26
I know that you know that I know that you know, I shouldn't do that anymore, sounds kind of pithy. In my spy novel is about seven pages are devoted to intelligence tactics that are reworded for satirical effect. nonetheless it is more akin to Hypophora rhetorical strategy. stems from an old CIA article about the hotels and intelligence operations, defense department manual on"speaking Cambodian'" which I think is the nadar of military intelligence/ignorance built right f****** in.
The 1940 Japanese analogy is a bit lite, you could have used a better subject matter than cuisine how about one of our reactions to their aggression in Asia was not to sell them oil and other materials, increased shipbuilding in the United States Naval yards, culminating to December 7th 1941 a fairly good example is "oil" as a pretext War. I mean you got to admit the United States went from a Podunk military to most powerful the world has ever seen in span of 7 years give or take a year too.
posted by clavdivs at 2:57 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
now I'm starting to backtrack comment. I realize this is between you and violet blue but I'm confused as to what brought upon:
Violet Blue Yes. And?
How does that justify ongoing genocide in Gaza?
posted by sotonohito at 2:17 PM on March 24
was it
"You do realize this would be the 10th ceasefire/pause/truce between Israel and Hamas since 2008, not the first, right?
posted by Violet Blue at 6:06 PM on March"
if this is the comment of contention as I see the previous ones do not merit that kind of follow-up question.
normally I wouldn't ask that and all I'm looking for is that the correct timeline of comment and rebuttal.
Just saying it for the sake of clarity with no further comment where within.
What trade? Not many results coming up for "provocative elongation", although it is a very funny phrase.
posted by sagc at 7:13 AM on March 26
I know that you know that I know that you know, I shouldn't do that anymore, sounds kind of pithy. In my spy novel is about seven pages are devoted to intelligence tactics that are reworded for satirical effect. nonetheless it is more akin to Hypophora rhetorical strategy. stems from an old CIA article about the hotels and intelligence operations, defense department manual on"speaking Cambodian'" which I think is the nadar of military intelligence/ignorance built right f****** in.
The 1940 Japanese analogy is a bit lite, you could have used a better subject matter than cuisine how about one of our reactions to their aggression in Asia was not to sell them oil and other materials, increased shipbuilding in the United States Naval yards, culminating to December 7th 1941 a fairly good example is "oil" as a pretext War. I mean you got to admit the United States went from a Podunk military to most powerful the world has ever seen in span of 7 years give or take a year too.
posted by clavdivs at 2:57 PM on March 26 [1 favorite]
Bribery scheme uncovered: EU politicians are paid by Moscow to spread the Kremlin's propaganda using via a "news" website in six countries. Politicians are from Germany, France, Poland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Hungary.
Article is in German (sorry) and behind a pay wall (sorry).
posted by UN at 10:31 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
Article is in German (sorry) and behind a pay wall (sorry).
posted by UN at 10:31 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
UN's German Spiegel article can be seen in full through an archive link. Browsers built on Chrome software offer automatic translation. There are also several good translation apps for FireFox. My favorite is one called TWP, which is short for Translate Web Pages. It attaches to your cursor, so you can translate sections of pages or, if you set it for automatic translation, whole websites.
In a far less important side note, the BBC and NYT are now reporting that the online rumors about Princess Kate are also linked to Russian disinformation.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:05 PM on March 27 [4 favorites]
In a far less important side note, the BBC and NYT are now reporting that the online rumors about Princess Kate are also linked to Russian disinformation.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:05 PM on March 27 [4 favorites]
Relatedly: The data is clear: Israel-Hamas war hurt Ukraine in DC
posted by Violet Blue at 2:10 PM on March 27
posted by Violet Blue at 2:10 PM on March 27
The Palestinian genocide (i'm not going to use the obvious euphemism "Israel-Hamas war") hurt Ukraine because Joe Biden and congress absolutely insist, for a variety of reasons, on tying "weapons for Ukraine to fight a power bent on conquest and genocide" to "weapons for Israel to continue to commit conquest and genocide". That isn't the fault of "Russian disinformation"; at literally any point the US government could decide to decouple the two conflicts and fund (or not fund) them separately!
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:18 PM on March 27 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:18 PM on March 27 [9 favorites]
You're partly right. Some of the linkage was to get around the Republicans, but it was also likely for bureaucratic reasons since all of the money is coming out of the same defense pot. The part I differ with is foremost the support was for Israel, which immediately had to respond to Hamas on Oct. 7, as well as protect its border with Lebanon for fear of Hezbollah and, second, Biden had to respond to pro-Palestinian protesters, which is important, obviously, but becomes more problematic if Ukraine gets lost in it all, which is, of course, always Russia's goal.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:31 PM on March 27
posted by Violet Blue at 2:31 PM on March 27
EU politicians are paid by Moscow to spread the Kremlin's propaganda using via a "news" website in six countries. Politicians are from Germany, France, Poland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Hungary.@UN Any idea if this an EU issue or a country-specific issue? Has the EU even had many (any?) scandals involving politicians from multiple countries it had to address?
posted by Violet Blue at 2:34 PM on March 27
NYT: Russia Amps Up Online Campaign Against Ukraine Before U.S. Elections
Russia has intensified its online efforts to derail military funding for Ukraine in the United States and Europe, largely by using harder-to-trace technologies to amplify arguments for isolationism ahead of the U.S. elections, according to disinformation experts and intelligence assessments.posted by gwint at 3:36 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
In recent days, intelligence agencies have warned that Russia has found better ways to hide its influence operations, and the Treasury Department issued sanctions last week against two Russian companies that it said supported the Kremlin’s campaign.
The stepped-up operations, run by aides to President Vladimir V. Putin and Russian military intelligence agencies, come at a critical moment in the debate in the United States over support for Ukraine in its war against Russia. While opposition to additional aid may have started without Russian influence, the Kremlin now sees an opportunity.
Russian operatives are laying the groundwork for what could be a stronger push to support candidates who oppose aiding Ukraine, or who call for pulling the United States back from NATO and other alliances, U.S. officials and independent researchers say.
@olliecarrol:
A Russian phones his cousin in Odessa to ask whether his relative has become one of the Nazis that Russian state television was telling him about. “Yes,” confirms the cousin. “And the whole synagogue has too.”
Odessa humour. You can’t beat it.
posted by Kabanos at 3:56 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
A Russian phones his cousin in Odessa to ask whether his relative has become one of the Nazis that Russian state television was telling him about. “Yes,” confirms the cousin. “And the whole synagogue has too.”
Odessa humour. You can’t beat it.
posted by Kabanos at 3:56 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
The border with Lebanon that Israel has spent months blanketing with (banned under international law) white phosphorus in order to make it uninhabitable? The border with Lebanon that everyone is pretty sure Israel plans to invade soon? It seems to me that none of that has much to do with "fear of Hezbollah".
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:58 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:58 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)
my favorite is when Hezbollah claimed responsibility for an attack on a bulldozer.
No, Hezbollah killed three American soldiers, and we shut them right the f*** down.
Russian disinformation is about immigration. The real aim is to undercut Ukraine aid
posted by clavdivs at 7:45 PM on March 27
my favorite is when Hezbollah claimed responsibility for an attack on a bulldozer.
No, Hezbollah killed three American soldiers, and we shut them right the f*** down.
Russian disinformation is about immigration. The real aim is to undercut Ukraine aid
posted by clavdivs at 7:45 PM on March 27
@UN Any idea if this an EU issue or a country-specific issue? Has the EU even had many (any?) scandals involving politicians from multiple countries it had to address?
I'd say it's definitely an issue for the EU, in that these investigations pop up every few months in one country or another with a certain regularity. A politician gets paid by agents here, a journalist takes bribes there, and so on. I've posted about a few of such occurrences in the various Ukraine threads in the last couple of years.
The EU (as an institution) has funded several projects to fight disinformation. But it's an uphill battle. Russia has the cash and the bitcoins, people want those things.
posted by UN at 11:02 PM on March 27
I'd say it's definitely an issue for the EU, in that these investigations pop up every few months in one country or another with a certain regularity. A politician gets paid by agents here, a journalist takes bribes there, and so on. I've posted about a few of such occurrences in the various Ukraine threads in the last couple of years.
The EU (as an institution) has funded several projects to fight disinformation. But it's an uphill battle. Russia has the cash and the bitcoins, people want those things.
posted by UN at 11:02 PM on March 27
I doubt twitter.com/LostWeapons represents a trustworthy source, but he thinks Sudan has become a minor front in the Ukraine war.
I suppose this thread represents a claim that Gaza was already a front in the same war, so interesting how far it all spreads..
posted by jeffburdges at 4:20 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
I suppose this thread represents a claim that Gaza was already a front in the same war, so interesting how far it all spreads..
posted by jeffburdges at 4:20 AM on March 28 [1 favorite]
[H]e thinks Sudan has become a minor front in the Ukraine war.
It has, and I just realized that the African immigrants I've been noticing recently must have been Sudanese. The U.S. recently opened its doors to 1 million of them.
Sudan has been sending Ukraine weapons since the start of the war. They not only have plentiful gold mines, they also happen to be the largest weapons manufacturer in the Middle East and North Africa. From 2019-2021, they were also transitioning to democracy, with the assistance and encouragement of the U.S. Then Prigozhin showed up, and began backing the rebels. Civil war broke out and the military ruler who had been helping Sudan transition to democracy, suddenly found himself besieged. He called Zelensky.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:38 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
It has, and I just realized that the African immigrants I've been noticing recently must have been Sudanese. The U.S. recently opened its doors to 1 million of them.
According to the UN, Sudan is currently suffering from the largest humanitarian crisis in the world, with more than 8 million people newly displaced since the conflict began last April, and nearly 25 million people – half of Sudan’s population – needing aid. More than 1 million Sudanese refugees have fled to ... Chad, Egypt, Ethiopia, South Sudan, and the Central African Republic. The U.S. is pushing for peace, however, and there's some chance of Peace Talks in April.The WSJ broke the story that Ukraine Is Now Fighting Russia in Sudan. (Archive link) The short version is Russia has been plundering Africa for gold and training fighters in several African nations (to help them fight for it) for years, but it is now stepping up economic pressure — because of the war in Ukraine — to deter smaller countries from sending weapons to Kyiv, even indirectly.
Sudan has been sending Ukraine weapons since the start of the war. They not only have plentiful gold mines, they also happen to be the largest weapons manufacturer in the Middle East and North Africa. From 2019-2021, they were also transitioning to democracy, with the assistance and encouragement of the U.S. Then Prigozhin showed up, and began backing the rebels. Civil war broke out and the military ruler who had been helping Sudan transition to democracy, suddenly found himself besieged. He called Zelensky.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:38 PM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Just published, long but very worth a read: From Panic to Policy: The Limits of Foreign Propaganda and the Foundations of an Effective Response
American leaders and scholars have long feared the prospect that hostile foreign powers could subvert democracy by spreading false, misleading, and inflammatory information by using various media. Drawing on both historical experience and empirical literature, this article argues that such fears may be both misplaced and misguided. The relationship between people’s attitudes and their media consumption remains murky, at best, despite technological advances promising to decode or manipulate it. This limitation extends to foreign foes as well. Policymakers therefore risk becoming pessimistic toward the public and distracted from the domestic, real-world drivers of their confidence in democratic institutions. Policy interventions may also prove detrimental to democratic values like free expression and to the norms that the United States aims to foster in the information environment.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:29 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
…
Yet this rise of interest and effort is based on potentially misleading views about the prospects for propaganda. Contrary to prevailing assumptions, a range of recent empirical studies have failed to validate any uniform, causal relationship between online media and major changes in human attitudes and behaviors. Moreover, research in this area remains limited in scope and beset by methodological challenges. Attempting to trace or wield influence is difficult, even with the help of systematic data collection. Both would-be online propagandists and policymakers often fail to appreciate this complexity.
This failure may lead to ineffective policy prescriptions, relying on military, foreign policy, and national security tools to address what are likely homegrown domestic issues. Insofar as policymakers aim to protect democracy from such subversion, outsized fears of foreign encroachment, undue faith in the power of media and technology, and pessimism toward the American public may prove equally corrosive to the trust in institutions ostensibly under greatest threat. Political leaders and institutions thus risk losing faith in the very public they exist to serve.
DENYING RUSSIA’S ONLY STRATEGY FOR SUCCESS
Mar 27, 2024 - ISW Press
"The notion that the war is unwinnable because of Russia’s dominance is a Russian information operation, which gives us a glimpse of the Kremlin’s real strategy and only real hope of success. The Kremlin must get the United States to the sidelines, allowing Russia to fight Ukraine in isolation and then proceed to Moscow’s next targets, which Russia will also seek to isolate. "
posted by clavdivs at 4:48 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
Mar 27, 2024 - ISW Press
"The notion that the war is unwinnable because of Russia’s dominance is a Russian information operation, which gives us a glimpse of the Kremlin’s real strategy and only real hope of success. The Kremlin must get the United States to the sidelines, allowing Russia to fight Ukraine in isolation and then proceed to Moscow’s next targets, which Russia will also seek to isolate. "
posted by clavdivs at 4:48 PM on March 28 [2 favorites]
We can maybe share all the genocides equally between the US and Russian alogned sides then.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:06 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 1:06 AM on March 29 [1 favorite]
NYT: Czechs Accuse Men of ‘Russian Influence Operation’ in Europe: "Amid news reports that European politicians received payments to promote Russian interests, the Czech government froze the assets of the men and a website, Voice of Europe."
posted by gwint at 4:07 PM on March 29 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 4:07 PM on March 29 [1 favorite]
60 Minutes (full episode): "Havana Syndrome" in Vietnam: Possible Russian role in attack on Americans, new evidence suggests. Eleven U.S. officials were injured in a Havana Syndrome-style attack ahead of VP Kamala Harris's 2021 trip to Hanoi. A newly discovered document suggests Russia may have been involved. From 2019 and 2022, Scott Pelley's investigation into neurological symptoms and serious brain injuries reported by U.S. diplomats, intelligence agents and troops around the world and even on the grounds of the White House.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:26 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Violet Blue at 3:26 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
I read that the Russians have also invented a laser that makes you gay, a Gayser, if you will. When will people start taking them seriously?
I mean seriously, Russia is so all-powerful, they've even convinced people that people in Gaza, the land of fat and honey, are starving! And they're also making up lies that IDF troops are looting, when we all know that the destitute Gaza has nothing worth taking (if this isn't true, why do they need all that UN aid, huh?).
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:39 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
I mean seriously, Russia is so all-powerful, they've even convinced people that people in Gaza, the land of fat and honey, are starving! And they're also making up lies that IDF troops are looting, when we all know that the destitute Gaza has nothing worth taking (if this isn't true, why do they need all that UN aid, huh?).
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:39 AM on April 1 [5 favorites]
More seriously, if we're talking about disinformation, the big story I'm waiting for to break is about what's going on in Israel. Given the opprobrium of the rest of the world, how is that getting conveyed to people there?
From the outside, ideas that this is Russian disinformation, pan-Arabist disinformation, disinformation from a vast network of international leftist antisemitic media, seem common.
Some people in the US and the Commonwealth are getting distorted information, sure, and Russia may be to blame. But people in Israel are either monsters (and I refuse to believe that) or currently subject to a highly advanced and targeted disinformation scheme which is warping their perspectives away from the inherent dignity of the human being
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:49 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
From the outside, ideas that this is Russian disinformation, pan-Arabist disinformation, disinformation from a vast network of international leftist antisemitic media, seem common.
Some people in the US and the Commonwealth are getting distorted information, sure, and Russia may be to blame. But people in Israel are either monsters (and I refuse to believe that) or currently subject to a highly advanced and targeted disinformation scheme which is warping their perspectives away from the inherent dignity of the human being
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:49 AM on April 1 [3 favorites]
The NIH could not find Havana syndrome injuries. Five different American intelegence agencies concluded "the available intelligence consistently points against the involvement of US adversaries in causing the reported incidents" (and a sixth said similar). All these guys would've increased funding if Havana syndrome existed so.. It's sufficently well debunked folks.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:59 AM on April 1 [6 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 4:59 AM on April 1 [6 favorites]
a Gayser, if you will
Mike Rothschild's gonna have to update his book!
posted by mittens at 5:13 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
Mike Rothschild's gonna have to update his book!
posted by mittens at 5:13 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
I mean seriously, Russia is so all-powerful, they've even convinced people that people in Gaza, the land of fat and honey, are starving! And they're also making up lies that IDF troops are looting, when we all know that the destitute Gaza has nothing worth taking (if this isn't true, why do they need all that UN aid, huh?).
Is anyone (or at least, anyone here) actually saying that those things are Russian disinformation? I get your broader rhetorical point, that you think people are exaggerating the power and extent of Russian propaganda/disinformation, but your specific example seems very disconnected from how actual disinformation campaigns are occurring currently.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
Is anyone (or at least, anyone here) actually saying that those things are Russian disinformation? I get your broader rhetorical point, that you think people are exaggerating the power and extent of Russian propaganda/disinformation, but your specific example seems very disconnected from how actual disinformation campaigns are occurring currently.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 AM on April 1 [2 favorites]
France24 has a web program called Truth or Fake. It's a little rough around the edges, but their goal is to help people identify disinformation online. In one segment, they created a short program on Russian bots using Israel-Hamas war to discredit Ukraine that shows examples of pages to well-known international websites, including Fox, that Russia spoofed, and replaced with their own messaging. Another segment shows how images of war in Ukraine were used to falsely illustrate an Israeli ground offensive in Gaza.
Common Sense Media offers a few basic media questions to help distinguish between true and false stories.
The "non-lethal acoustic weapons" story, broken by Der Spiegel, and used against American officials in multiple places, including Washington DC, was updated in last night's installment of 60 Minutes, which I thought was included above, but perhaps wasn't.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:32 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
Common Sense Media offers a few basic media questions to help distinguish between true and false stories.
- Who made this?
- Who is the target audience?
- Who paid for this? Or, who gets paid if you click on this?
- Who might benefit or be harmed by this message?
- What is left out of this message that might be important?
- Is this credible (and what makes you think that)?
The "non-lethal acoustic weapons" story, broken by Der Spiegel, and used against American officials in multiple places, including Washington DC, was updated in last night's installment of 60 Minutes, which I thought was included above, but perhaps wasn't.
posted by Violet Blue at 10:32 AM on April 1 [1 favorite]
Dip Flash: the framing of the post, plus OP's various comments in this thread and others, have made very clear that that's the inference we're supposed to make. That's the thing about propaganda, right? It's not always about what you say, it's often about what you imply.
Audreynachrome: I also really want to talk about Israeli disinformation and propaganda. I want to talk about the decades-long practice of hasbara, long before anyone had even coined the term "troll farm/bot farm" and applied it to Russia and other state actors. I want to talk about the strategy of "flooding the zone" with disinformation to create doubt, and how there's a clear throughline from Israel convincing the entire world that they didn't bomb Al Ahli last November (it was a "failed Hamas rocket") to the colossal massacre that happened at Al Shifa over the last two weeks. I want to talk about internal vs external propaganda/disinformation, and about how propaganda is a signal in many ways beyond the obvious: for instance, what it means that Israel barely bothers to make up plausible lies for external consumption, assembling small groups of weapons & brand-new-from-the-package enemy flags & absolutely unbelievable "found" documents for photo opportunities -- as if they were American cops bragging about their "big drug bust" on Twitter when it's one handgun, five nickel bags and some mysterious white powder that's probably baking soda.
I'd like to talk about all of those things, but i've been seeing images from Al Shifa all day, and i can't stop weeping with rage and grief. This comment alone has probably exhausted my capacity to be coherent for the next 24 hours.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:53 PM on April 1 [8 favorites]
Audreynachrome: I also really want to talk about Israeli disinformation and propaganda. I want to talk about the decades-long practice of hasbara, long before anyone had even coined the term "troll farm/bot farm" and applied it to Russia and other state actors. I want to talk about the strategy of "flooding the zone" with disinformation to create doubt, and how there's a clear throughline from Israel convincing the entire world that they didn't bomb Al Ahli last November (it was a "failed Hamas rocket") to the colossal massacre that happened at Al Shifa over the last two weeks. I want to talk about internal vs external propaganda/disinformation, and about how propaganda is a signal in many ways beyond the obvious: for instance, what it means that Israel barely bothers to make up plausible lies for external consumption, assembling small groups of weapons & brand-new-from-the-package enemy flags & absolutely unbelievable "found" documents for photo opportunities -- as if they were American cops bragging about their "big drug bust" on Twitter when it's one handgun, five nickel bags and some mysterious white powder that's probably baking soda.
I'd like to talk about all of those things, but i've been seeing images from Al Shifa all day, and i can't stop weeping with rage and grief. This comment alone has probably exhausted my capacity to be coherent for the next 24 hours.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:53 PM on April 1 [8 favorites]
Knesset passes law to shut down Al Jazeera in Israel
posted by jeffburdges at 10:34 AM on April 2 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 10:34 AM on April 2 [1 favorite]
The kind of single-mindedness I’m seeing from a few of you here is alarming.
If the Biden Israel-Hamas protest vote and the Republican refusal to sign off on a border bill are taken to their logical conclusion, the U.S. may well re-elect Trump, the author of the 2017 Muslim Ban, which gave him “a license to discriminate."
Who would you have helped in this scenario? Oh, yeah, Putin.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:52 PM on April 2 [2 favorites]
If the Biden Israel-Hamas protest vote and the Republican refusal to sign off on a border bill are taken to their logical conclusion, the U.S. may well re-elect Trump, the author of the 2017 Muslim Ban, which gave him “a license to discriminate."
Who would you have helped in this scenario? Oh, yeah, Putin.
posted by Violet Blue at 1:52 PM on April 2 [2 favorites]
If the Biden Israel-Hamas protest vote and the Republican refusal to sign off on a border bill are taken to their logical conclusion
Somebody'd better tell Biden he's at risk of helping Putin, do you think he knows?
posted by CrystalDave at 2:49 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
Somebody'd better tell Biden he's at risk of helping Putin, do you think he knows?
posted by CrystalDave at 2:49 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
Violet Blue, given what you're posting in this thread, I'd appreciate if you owned your position: To what degree to you believe support for Palestinians is being driven by Putin? Because as many people have pointed out, you seem to be making an awful lot of insinuations both here and in other threads that the answer is "significantly", and that attempts to draw attention to the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank are somehow illegitimate.
posted by sagc at 2:53 PM on April 2 [7 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:53 PM on April 2 [7 favorites]
To what degree to you believe support for Palestinians is being driven by Putin?
I'm not the person you are asking, but my guess is that this is something we'll only know in hindsight, and the answer will be "somewhat, but playing to both sides" Obviously people develop their own opinions by seeing photos and videos and articles and feeling horror or shame, either pro-P or pro-I, plus picking up sentiments from their milieu, right? But I'm reminded of what were later documented to be Russian troll farms working to incite strong feelings on both sides (i.e., create divisiveness) during the BLM protests. That's my guess for how Russian (or other) disinformation is working in this conflict, by trying to amp up feelings and disconnections that create divisiveness and conflict, not by planting full false narratives which seems unlikely to succeed.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:15 PM on April 2
I'm not the person you are asking, but my guess is that this is something we'll only know in hindsight, and the answer will be "somewhat, but playing to both sides" Obviously people develop their own opinions by seeing photos and videos and articles and feeling horror or shame, either pro-P or pro-I, plus picking up sentiments from their milieu, right? But I'm reminded of what were later documented to be Russian troll farms working to incite strong feelings on both sides (i.e., create divisiveness) during the BLM protests. That's my guess for how Russian (or other) disinformation is working in this conflict, by trying to amp up feelings and disconnections that create divisiveness and conflict, not by planting full false narratives which seems unlikely to succeed.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:15 PM on April 2
I'm starting to get the feeling this FPP might not have been made entirely in good faith...
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:16 PM on April 2 [8 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:16 PM on April 2 [8 favorites]
I'm not the person you are asking, but my guess is that this is something we'll only know in hindsight, and the answer will be "somewhat, but playing to both sides"
Do you really believe there is any meaningful number of people outraged at deliberate, merciless genocide against a defenseless population including children who'd be fine with it if it weren't for the sinister influence of Russia? The "divisiveness and conflict" result from some people wanting to stop this genocide and others either not caring or actively supporting it. How exactly is Putin supposed to be making that worse?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:31 PM on April 2 [8 favorites]
Do you really believe there is any meaningful number of people outraged at deliberate, merciless genocide against a defenseless population including children who'd be fine with it if it weren't for the sinister influence of Russia? The "divisiveness and conflict" result from some people wanting to stop this genocide and others either not caring or actively supporting it. How exactly is Putin supposed to be making that worse?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:31 PM on April 2 [8 favorites]
Atom Eyes: yeah, that's been quite clear from jump to some of us!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:46 PM on April 2 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:46 PM on April 2 [3 favorites]
Do you really believe there is any meaningful number of people outraged at deliberate, merciless genocide against a defenseless population including children who'd be fine with it if it weren't for the sinister influence of Russia? T
That's like asking if anyone's outrage about the violence that led to the BLM protests was manufactured. That just isn't how the campaigns work, by Russia or any other state actor. You're setting up a strawman so sure, your statement is correct, but also completely ignores the actual phenomenon.
I'm fine not agreeing on this (and again, I'm not the person you were actually asking this of, so I'll shut up at this point), just that I think we are speaking orthogonally here and what you are responding to isn't the point I was making (perhaps poorly).
posted by Dip Flash at 3:49 PM on April 2 [1 favorite]
That's like asking if anyone's outrage about the violence that led to the BLM protests was manufactured. That just isn't how the campaigns work, by Russia or any other state actor. You're setting up a strawman so sure, your statement is correct, but also completely ignores the actual phenomenon.
I'm fine not agreeing on this (and again, I'm not the person you were actually asking this of, so I'll shut up at this point), just that I think we are speaking orthogonally here and what you are responding to isn't the point I was making (perhaps poorly).
posted by Dip Flash at 3:49 PM on April 2 [1 favorite]
Actually, maybe some of you should own your positions. Do you care if there’s a genocide going on Ukraine? Do you care what happens to Ukraine’s European neighbors? Do you have any idea the how much they fear the return of Trump will make the prospect of expanding war even worse?
Do you care if Trump wins the next election? Do you remember how racism and discrimination rose during his presidency? Don’t the Muslim Ban or the March on Charlottesville ring any bells, if the potential loss of democracy doesn’t?
Because what happens in Israel/Hamas and with the Palestinians impacts what happens in Ukraine and what happens in Ukraine impacts what happens in the Baltics and what happens in the U.S. election impacts all of it.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:50 PM on April 2
Do you care if Trump wins the next election? Do you remember how racism and discrimination rose during his presidency? Don’t the Muslim Ban or the March on Charlottesville ring any bells, if the potential loss of democracy doesn’t?
Because what happens in Israel/Hamas and with the Palestinians impacts what happens in Ukraine and what happens in Ukraine impacts what happens in the Baltics and what happens in the U.S. election impacts all of it.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:50 PM on April 2
So... That's a no, then?
posted by sagc at 3:52 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 3:52 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
Not that it deserves a more serious response, but: what changes in behaviour would you have people make, given that the most factual accounts still describe a genocide happening before our eyes? Do you want information not to be shared? Opinions to be vetted by the DNC? Every post to start with "Hamas is worse, and you should still vote for Biden" before describing the latest killing of aid workers?
Again: what do you think the actual intersection of Putin and Israel banning Al Jazeera is? Because you seem to be implying that posting about somehow plays into Putin's hands... but is that somehow the poster's fault?
posted by sagc at 3:57 PM on April 2 [5 favorites]
Again: what do you think the actual intersection of Putin and Israel banning Al Jazeera is? Because you seem to be implying that posting about somehow plays into Putin's hands... but is that somehow the poster's fault?
posted by sagc at 3:57 PM on April 2 [5 favorites]
Liberals going full HUAC and re-embracing post-9/11 racist bellicosity is going to do a million times more damage to Biden than a bunch of people rightfully angry at an ongoing genocide, and both the US and Israeli governments' denials of said genocide, on a dying website.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:59 PM on April 2 [9 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:59 PM on April 2 [9 favorites]
Yeah, if you're upset about this you could always direct your anger at, I don't know, Israel for doing this shit that gets us so angry. Or, you could ask your Democratic representative to pressure Biden to do literally anything to stop Israel from doing this. I would be happy to vote for him then.
posted by corb at 6:04 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:04 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
Palestinians, as a people, do not deserve to be sacrificed for any other people's futures, whether it's Israeli futures, Ukrainian futures or Polish futures.
They owe us nothing, and most of the rest of us owe them a great deal for ignoring decades of suffering because it was convenient.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:05 PM on April 2 [8 favorites]
They owe us nothing, and most of the rest of us owe them a great deal for ignoring decades of suffering because it was convenient.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:05 PM on April 2 [8 favorites]
Like, here's the non-glib response. I, like everyone else, have hard lines. There are things I'm not willing to do. And I'm not willing to back a genocide. That's my hard line. I'm just weird about that, I guess. I participated in an occupation once, feel a lot of deep shame about it, and I'm not going to do something worse now. Not with my dollars, and not with my votes.
You can call me a traitor. I've been called a traitor before, when I protested the Iraq War. It's all pretty familiar, as a matter of fact. Been told I was destroying America before too. It's not really going to move me on this. Nothing can move me on this. I'm not backing a genocide. If you want my support, then stop backing a genocide.
posted by corb at 6:08 PM on April 2 [9 favorites]
You can call me a traitor. I've been called a traitor before, when I protested the Iraq War. It's all pretty familiar, as a matter of fact. Been told I was destroying America before too. It's not really going to move me on this. Nothing can move me on this. I'm not backing a genocide. If you want my support, then stop backing a genocide.
posted by corb at 6:08 PM on April 2 [9 favorites]
Do you care if Trump wins the next election? Do you remember how racism and discrimination rose during his presidency? Don’t the Muslim Ban or the March on Charlottesville ring any bells, if the potential loss of democracy doesn’t?
Not at all! Literally only you do. All the rest of us are brainwashed dupes and only you are uniquely immune to propaganda. All the thousands of Muslims marching on the streets begging for a ceasefire and end to the genocide of the Palestinians have no notion of what the Muslim Ban was or what racism and discrimination are. They are Putin-addled robots salivating for another Trump presidency.
Or...possibly the people you disagree with (many of whom have far more to potentially lose than you do under a Trump presidency) just disagree with you for reasons that have nothing to do with Russian disinformation.
posted by lizard2590 at 6:34 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
Not at all! Literally only you do. All the rest of us are brainwashed dupes and only you are uniquely immune to propaganda. All the thousands of Muslims marching on the streets begging for a ceasefire and end to the genocide of the Palestinians have no notion of what the Muslim Ban was or what racism and discrimination are. They are Putin-addled robots salivating for another Trump presidency.
Or...possibly the people you disagree with (many of whom have far more to potentially lose than you do under a Trump presidency) just disagree with you for reasons that have nothing to do with Russian disinformation.
posted by lizard2590 at 6:34 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
Because what happens in Israel/Hamas and with the Palestinians impacts what happens in Ukraine and what happens in Ukraine impacts what happens in the Baltics and what happens in the U.S. election impacts all of it.
I am sorry. I don't mean this to be an attack. This is just what your post genuinely seems to me to be saying and I would like you to tell me if I am wrong:
Are you suggesting we should support Israel's genocide of Palestinians in order to help Joe Biden's electoral chances?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:38 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
I am sorry. I don't mean this to be an attack. This is just what your post genuinely seems to me to be saying and I would like you to tell me if I am wrong:
Are you suggesting we should support Israel's genocide of Palestinians in order to help Joe Biden's electoral chances?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:38 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
That's like asking if anyone's outrage about the violence that led to the BLM protests was manufactured. That just isn't how the campaigns work, by Russia or any other state actor. You're setting up a strawman so sure, your statement is correct, but also completely ignores the actual phenomenon.
I don't see how that is a strawman, The question was whether anger about Palestine was the result of Russian propaganda. The obvious answer is no.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:42 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
I don't see how that is a strawman, The question was whether anger about Palestine was the result of Russian propaganda. The obvious answer is no.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:42 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
Awkward time to have to read the assertions in this thread and then have the New Yorker interview with Aaron David Miller on another tab (h/t from the other threads).
CrystalDave: Somebody'd better tell Biden he's at risk of helping Putin, do you think he knows?
Couldn't say it better myself.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
CrystalDave: Somebody'd better tell Biden he's at risk of helping Putin, do you think he knows?
Couldn't say it better myself.
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on April 2 [6 favorites]
Are you suggesting we should support Israel's genocide of Palestinians in order to help Joe Biden's electoral chances?"
I'm not sure this is a good question: hopefully answering in the positive would be an immediately removed and grounds for site expulsion. So we can only ever have negative answers in the thread.
I do think the dominant blue-MAGA impulse though is to say "Yes! Do you want Putin/Trump to win? We don't *desire* the genocide, but it may be politically necessary" and I'm yet to see any evidence to the contrary, on X, in state media, in the posting of this thread or on the blue more widely.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:54 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure this is a good question: hopefully answering in the positive would be an immediately removed and grounds for site expulsion. So we can only ever have negative answers in the thread.
I do think the dominant blue-MAGA impulse though is to say "Yes! Do you want Putin/Trump to win? We don't *desire* the genocide, but it may be politically necessary" and I'm yet to see any evidence to the contrary, on X, in state media, in the posting of this thread or on the blue more widely.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:54 PM on April 2 [4 favorites]
Appears Israel specifically targetted those WCK workers.
Anyways..
Israel is ultimately just a pawn which the US shall eventually sacrifice, or partially so, but when?
Biden supports Israel beause Israel's loby looks more agile & powerful than anti-genocide protestors, aka hippie punching. As always, the hippies must proove they have "the power to destroy" before the Democrats listen.
If Israel costs too much, then Biden can abandon Israel, and face Israel's lobyists. In theory, if Israel's lobyists would support Trump, then Biden could jail them under S.1469 etc, given all their past illegal foreign infleunce upon US ellections, and that they never even hid their purposes. Ain't likely democrats jail billionaires though, so..
It's more likely a democrat would choose some middle road: Israel's genocide makes arms exports to Israel illegal under the War Crimes Act of 1996, so exporters can be prosicuted without direct involvement by the executive branch. And even Trump winning cannot necessarily derail those prosicutions.
Although evangelicals have typically supported Israel, under the idea that regional wars there help bring about the end times. At the same time, if Trump wins & wishes to abandon Israel, then evangelicals could descide that disengagement helps escalate the conflict there differently, or be happy with other offerings. All this fits because Trump had a passive/peaceful foreign policy last time.
I've no idea if this particular genocide by Israel triggers serious reprocusions for Israel, but maybe so. Israel is definitely someone's strategic sacrifice eventually, just not important.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:04 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Anyways..
Israel is ultimately just a pawn which the US shall eventually sacrifice, or partially so, but when?
Biden supports Israel beause Israel's loby looks more agile & powerful than anti-genocide protestors, aka hippie punching. As always, the hippies must proove they have "the power to destroy" before the Democrats listen.
If Israel costs too much, then Biden can abandon Israel, and face Israel's lobyists. In theory, if Israel's lobyists would support Trump, then Biden could jail them under S.1469 etc, given all their past illegal foreign infleunce upon US ellections, and that they never even hid their purposes. Ain't likely democrats jail billionaires though, so..
It's more likely a democrat would choose some middle road: Israel's genocide makes arms exports to Israel illegal under the War Crimes Act of 1996, so exporters can be prosicuted without direct involvement by the executive branch. And even Trump winning cannot necessarily derail those prosicutions.
Although evangelicals have typically supported Israel, under the idea that regional wars there help bring about the end times. At the same time, if Trump wins & wishes to abandon Israel, then evangelicals could descide that disengagement helps escalate the conflict there differently, or be happy with other offerings. All this fits because Trump had a passive/peaceful foreign policy last time.
I've no idea if this particular genocide by Israel triggers serious reprocusions for Israel, but maybe so. Israel is definitely someone's strategic sacrifice eventually, just not important.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:04 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Although evangelicals have typically supported Israel, under the idea that regional wars there help bring about the end times. At the same time, if Trump wins & wishes to abandon Israel, then evangelicals could descide that disengagement helps escalate the conflict there differently, or be happy with other offerings. All this fits because Trump had a passive/peaceful foreign policy last time.
Coincidentally, from last week, American rightwing media (Newsmax et al) were busy making hay about a proposed bill in the Knesset from far-right lawmakers to ban proselytising of Jesus (that's my understanding trying to parse and filter out the reporting language). It didn't pass, but eventually ethnonationalists cannot function together in a system of commonalities, I reckon.
posted by cendawanita at 2:18 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
Coincidentally, from last week, American rightwing media (Newsmax et al) were busy making hay about a proposed bill in the Knesset from far-right lawmakers to ban proselytising of Jesus (that's my understanding trying to parse and filter out the reporting language). It didn't pass, but eventually ethnonationalists cannot function together in a system of commonalities, I reckon.
posted by cendawanita at 2:18 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
It's getting difficult to untangle the flow of conversation here — maybe it's just me. Trump had a peaceful foreign policy, Democrats are hippie punching, powerful Israeli lobbyists own US foreign policy, but actually the US dictate Israeli policy... But really it's the Evangelicals...?
I'm not saying there's no connection between these various groups, but....
It's odd that so many various interest groups get listed out for causing/influencing politics and that's well and good to discuss. But a mere mention of Russian disinfo and a number of people will immediately shout out NO Putin did not cause this or that. Why is this a no-go for some commentators? The existence of the Internet Research Agency amongst other things was well established.
posted by UN at 3:32 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying there's no connection between these various groups, but....
It's odd that so many various interest groups get listed out for causing/influencing politics and that's well and good to discuss. But a mere mention of Russian disinfo and a number of people will immediately shout out NO Putin did not cause this or that. Why is this a no-go for some commentators? The existence of the Internet Research Agency amongst other things was well established.
posted by UN at 3:32 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Interestingly, Biden urged Ukraine to halt strikes on Russian oil refineries, which suggests Biden himself takes Russia less seriously than suggested here and by democrats.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:03 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 4:03 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Can anyone show me where exactly Putin's telling top-level US officials to lie to the press at least once a day to support Israel's ongoing genocide? Here's a video of Kirby claiming Israel hasn't violated international law despite it happening live and in 4K on pretty much an hourly basis, and I'm pretty sure no one in the Internet Research Agency told him to do it.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:10 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:10 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
despite it happening live and in 4K on pretty much an hourly basis
I suppose this, fundamentally, is what has confused me about the thread and its underlying premise. On the one hand we have the idea that Russia has some bots posting tweets that are changing the underlying narrative of the war. On the other, we have--if you can stomach it--a live feed into absolute atrocity. Even if you accept that the disinformation exists (which, sure) and has a measurable impact (trickier), it's like telling a 3-pack-a-day smoker that the twinkies he's eating might also contribute to his cancer. What is the disinformation? Who is seeing it, and what impact is it having? And how does it compare to what we're seeing in every legitimate news source out there?
posted by mittens at 4:56 AM on April 3 [6 favorites]
I suppose this, fundamentally, is what has confused me about the thread and its underlying premise. On the one hand we have the idea that Russia has some bots posting tweets that are changing the underlying narrative of the war. On the other, we have--if you can stomach it--a live feed into absolute atrocity. Even if you accept that the disinformation exists (which, sure) and has a measurable impact (trickier), it's like telling a 3-pack-a-day smoker that the twinkies he's eating might also contribute to his cancer. What is the disinformation? Who is seeing it, and what impact is it having? And how does it compare to what we're seeing in every legitimate news source out there?
posted by mittens at 4:56 AM on April 3 [6 favorites]
Glegrinof the Pig-Man: your response it is a perfect example of the type of comment I am talking about.
You don't respond to my content, but take an indirect swipe at something I didn't say at all (who said Putin is "telling" US officials what to do here? Nobody).
Why lie about what I wrote? A fabrication is a fabrication.
posted by UN at 4:59 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
You don't respond to my content, but take an indirect swipe at something I didn't say at all (who said Putin is "telling" US officials what to do here? Nobody).
Why lie about what I wrote? A fabrication is a fabrication.
posted by UN at 4:59 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
What is the disinformation? Who is seeing it, and what impact is it having? And how does it compare to what we're seeing in every legitimate news source out there?
What's interesting is even for the battlefronts we can establish reasonably well that known actors operate (US elections in 2016), per one of the links way up above, current studies show the effect or impact is less clear than speculated, despite the money spent. And if you've been following at all any sort of political communications studies this follows established literature on propaganda and influence campaigns (activation is defined as something having political valence and that very much is a conditional factor dependent on other parts of the person's profile, which then indicates if there're contestable grounds you won't be far off in making projections based on the same methodology the US State Dept etc did with regards to capitalising on the disaffection of Soviet citizens and vice versa).
And on the front that is being contested (Palestine), what's being centred is a claim that really is difficult to take seriously (with regards to indications of resources being spent), when, if we want to seriously talk about propaganda and disinfo in this space, Russia is at best a third-place state actor in this discourse, to such a point for me that to call it a distraction is a compliment on the grip Putin has on people in the west (though probably a valid one if they're basing their heuristics from another theatre of war - I've just always been saying, it's the wrong front).
posted by cendawanita at 5:19 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
What's interesting is even for the battlefronts we can establish reasonably well that known actors operate (US elections in 2016), per one of the links way up above, current studies show the effect or impact is less clear than speculated, despite the money spent. And if you've been following at all any sort of political communications studies this follows established literature on propaganda and influence campaigns (activation is defined as something having political valence and that very much is a conditional factor dependent on other parts of the person's profile, which then indicates if there're contestable grounds you won't be far off in making projections based on the same methodology the US State Dept etc did with regards to capitalising on the disaffection of Soviet citizens and vice versa).
And on the front that is being contested (Palestine), what's being centred is a claim that really is difficult to take seriously (with regards to indications of resources being spent), when, if we want to seriously talk about propaganda and disinfo in this space, Russia is at best a third-place state actor in this discourse, to such a point for me that to call it a distraction is a compliment on the grip Putin has on people in the west (though probably a valid one if they're basing their heuristics from another theatre of war - I've just always been saying, it's the wrong front).
posted by cendawanita at 5:19 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
It's absolutely a reference to your content, specifically the assertion that "[i]t's odd that so many various interest groups get listed out for causing/influencing politics". The facts on the ground are the current policy of the American government is to offer full financial and military support for a genocide while spreading disinformation about the genocide in order to further the goals of the ones doing the genocide. No one in Russia is forcing them to do this, Putin isn't whispering into their ears, it's just the usual centrist bigotry at work. For evidence, look no further than Isaac Chotiner's recent interview with Aaron David Miller, which ends thusly:
Oh, if you’re asking me: Do I think that Joe Biden has the same depth of feeling and empathy for the Palestinians of Gaza as he does for the Israelis? No, he doesn’t, nor does he convey it. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:19 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
You reference my comment but invent what it actually contained.
You don't see why that's a problem?
posted by UN at 5:23 AM on April 3
You don't see why that's a problem?
posted by UN at 5:23 AM on April 3
Example of misinformation, specific to this claim of Palestine being a front for Russian op, and a significant one: ground reports that eight people died from drowning at sea trying to collect air dropped parcels. This was in the confusion of that moment - the actual number is twelve. Regardless, initial reports are amplified and tweeted out, with bots or known paid accounts being part of that virality.
Example of disinformation in the same front: despite established UN Security Council documentation, legalese, and precedence, the US ambassador to the UN states that a passed resolution is "non-binding". This is repeated by major broadsheets and their equivalent mostly unchallenged.
No one in the IRA* has to do anything, BUT, viral up the tweets about this fact.
*Heh, yes Sinn Fein too.
posted by cendawanita at 5:39 AM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Example of disinformation in the same front: despite established UN Security Council documentation, legalese, and precedence, the US ambassador to the UN states that a passed resolution is "non-binding". This is repeated by major broadsheets and their equivalent mostly unchallenged.
No one in the IRA* has to do anything, BUT, viral up the tweets about this fact.
*Heh, yes Sinn Fein too.
posted by cendawanita at 5:39 AM on April 3 [5 favorites]
It's odd that so many various interest groups get listed out for causing/influencing politics and that's well and good to discuss. But a mere mention of Russian disinfo and a number of people will immediately shout out NO Putin did not cause this or that. Why is this a no-go for some commentators? The existence of the Internet Research Agency amongst other things was well established.
I guess I'm waiting to see examples of how Russian disinfo has influenced people's perspectives on the genocide. Personally, I think you're getting such a heated emotional response because most folks on this thread are really outraged by their country's support of a genocide and having it insinuated that that outrage is partly a result of Russian disinformation makes them feel insulted and gaslit. That's certainly how I'm feeling. And the feeling is exacerbated by the complete lack of evidence or examples.
I feel like people who are skeptical that Russian disinformation has meaningfully influenced public opinion on the genocide are being dismissed as naive dupes--but no evidence is offered for why.
posted by lizard2590 at 7:27 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I guess I'm waiting to see examples of how Russian disinfo has influenced people's perspectives on the genocide. Personally, I think you're getting such a heated emotional response because most folks on this thread are really outraged by their country's support of a genocide and having it insinuated that that outrage is partly a result of Russian disinformation makes them feel insulted and gaslit. That's certainly how I'm feeling. And the feeling is exacerbated by the complete lack of evidence or examples.
I feel like people who are skeptical that Russian disinformation has meaningfully influenced public opinion on the genocide are being dismissed as naive dupes--but no evidence is offered for why.
posted by lizard2590 at 7:27 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I guess I'm waiting to see examples of how Russian disinfo has influenced people's perspectives on the genocide. Personally, I think you're getting such a heated emotional response because most folks on this thread are really outraged by their country's support of a genocide and having it insinuated that that outrage is partly a result of Russian disinformation makes them feel insulted and gaslit. That's certainly how I'm feeling. And the feeling is exacerbated by the complete lack of evidence or examples.
Why demand proof of disinformation if so inclined to the premise of being insulted and gaslit? Trump responded to a question at a low key event, after months of strategic silence, that Israel should finish the job, which means that anti-Biden rhetoric on the matter, during an election year, is precisely what it calculates to in a zero sum race. Never mind that Jared Kushner is already eyeballing the Gaza beachfront for profit. This reminds me of a quote by Wm. Burroughs, who famously said that if you don't know who the mark at the table is (the target of the con) then it's you. Point being that skepticism is your only defense, you don't have to gamble or invest your feelings. Rhetorically replacing a cast of known villains with Biden is not just exploiting emotions, but frankly assumes a high level of naivete.
posted by Brian B. at 10:47 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Why demand proof of disinformation if so inclined to the premise of being insulted and gaslit? Trump responded to a question at a low key event, after months of strategic silence, that Israel should finish the job, which means that anti-Biden rhetoric on the matter, during an election year, is precisely what it calculates to in a zero sum race. Never mind that Jared Kushner is already eyeballing the Gaza beachfront for profit. This reminds me of a quote by Wm. Burroughs, who famously said that if you don't know who the mark at the table is (the target of the con) then it's you. Point being that skepticism is your only defense, you don't have to gamble or invest your feelings. Rhetorically replacing a cast of known villains with Biden is not just exploiting emotions, but frankly assumes a high level of naivete.
posted by Brian B. at 10:47 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
what
What, specifically, should we be skeptical about? Whether he made end runs around Congress? Huh?
posted by sagc at 10:54 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
What, specifically, should we be skeptical about? Whether he made end runs around Congress? Huh?
posted by sagc at 10:54 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
This reminds me of a quote by Wm. Burroughs, who famously said that if you don't know who the mark at the table is (the target of the con) then it's you.
Okay. I'm the mark. In what way am I being had? How am I being conned? What are the con artists trying to convince me of?
To vote for Trump? I'm a brown nonbinary immigrant from a Muslim country lol, good luck to them!
That Biden's Palestine policy is inhumane and merits protest? Is that the con? Is that what I've been fooled into believing?
Here's a former State Department shill describing Biden's feelings about Palestine:
Oh, if you’re asking me: Do I think that Joe Biden has the same depth of feeling and empathy for the Palestinians of Gaza as he does for the Israelis? No, he doesn’t, nor does he convey it. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.
Is he a Putin disinfo agent too?
Point being that skepticism is your only defense, you don't have to gamble or invest your feelings. Rhetorically replacing a cast of known villains with Biden is not just exploiting emotions, but frankly assumes a high level of naivete.
I'd like to respond to this but I have no idea what it means. What is the "cast of known villains"? How have I "rhetorically replaced" them? What am I not meant to gamble or invest feelings in? No offense but this is just word salad to me.
The people most invested in convincing me that my opinions are a result of Russian disinfo seem to want me to disregard obvious facts (many of them reported by 'mainstream' news sources!) that are right in front of my face.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:11 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
Okay. I'm the mark. In what way am I being had? How am I being conned? What are the con artists trying to convince me of?
To vote for Trump? I'm a brown nonbinary immigrant from a Muslim country lol, good luck to them!
That Biden's Palestine policy is inhumane and merits protest? Is that the con? Is that what I've been fooled into believing?
Here's a former State Department shill describing Biden's feelings about Palestine:
Oh, if you’re asking me: Do I think that Joe Biden has the same depth of feeling and empathy for the Palestinians of Gaza as he does for the Israelis? No, he doesn’t, nor does he convey it. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.
Is he a Putin disinfo agent too?
Point being that skepticism is your only defense, you don't have to gamble or invest your feelings. Rhetorically replacing a cast of known villains with Biden is not just exploiting emotions, but frankly assumes a high level of naivete.
I'd like to respond to this but I have no idea what it means. What is the "cast of known villains"? How have I "rhetorically replaced" them? What am I not meant to gamble or invest feelings in? No offense but this is just word salad to me.
The people most invested in convincing me that my opinions are a result of Russian disinfo seem to want me to disregard obvious facts (many of them reported by 'mainstream' news sources!) that are right in front of my face.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:11 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I'd like to respond to this but I have no idea what it means.
In that case replace my word skepticism with cynicism: An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others. It helps in these lose-lose situations. Alternatively, stick with your best hopes.
posted by Brian B. at 11:19 AM on April 3
In that case replace my word skepticism with cynicism: An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others. It helps in these lose-lose situations. Alternatively, stick with your best hopes.
posted by Brian B. at 11:19 AM on April 3
This is just puffery that says nothing. Just come out and say what you mean in plain language.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:23 AM on April 3 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:23 AM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Like, if you think that being upset about genocide makes you a mark and also an enemy of the Democrats, or that you think the people here that disagree with you are Russian agents, just fucking say it. I'm sick and tired of y'all playing these rhetorical word games full of innuendo and implications about other members.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:25 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:25 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
Brian, how many babies in Gaza are you willing to kill in order to prevent Trump from being elected? You clearly have an answer to that question, and you don’t like our answer to the question, so what’s yours?
posted by corb at 1:00 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:00 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
By example you nailed my take on the manipulation, Corb, with a bonus for copping to team effort. What you are really asking is how many dead babies it would take to blame Biden and get his supporters to switch to Trump. So ask Iran and Hamas and others because they shrewdly calculated that number when they planned their election year war.
posted by Brian B. at 2:17 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 2:17 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
That still makes absolutely no sense to me. Does Biden have zero agency? Again, you keep suggesting that people are going to vote for Trump, which no-one here has said they will do.
I'd like to pose a different question: if we were to imagine a total absence of Russian interference, idk, they're busy, their internet went down, how do you imagine that all of this would be different?
Do you think that absent Russian influence, no-one would think the US role in the conflict was significant? That it wouldn't have affected how anyone feels about Biden? That we wouldn't be upset about the genocide? That we'd only be 90% as upset? Half as upset? Happy to turn a blind eye?
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:43 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
I'd like to pose a different question: if we were to imagine a total absence of Russian interference, idk, they're busy, their internet went down, how do you imagine that all of this would be different?
Do you think that absent Russian influence, no-one would think the US role in the conflict was significant? That it wouldn't have affected how anyone feels about Biden? That we wouldn't be upset about the genocide? That we'd only be 90% as upset? Half as upset? Happy to turn a blind eye?
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:43 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
how many dead babies it would take to blame Biden and get his supporters to switch to Trump
It really seems like someone should be letting Biden know about all this, so he can shrewdly foil Iran & Hamas's plans by putting an end to this genocide. Doesn't he know that all these backdoor weapons deals are playing right into their hands??
posted by CrystalDave at 2:48 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
It really seems like someone should be letting Biden know about all this, so he can shrewdly foil Iran & Hamas's plans by putting an end to this genocide. Doesn't he know that all these backdoor weapons deals are playing right into their hands??
posted by CrystalDave at 2:48 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
So ask Iran and Hamas and others because they shrewdly calculated that number when they planned their election year war.
Believe it or not, many political actions are taken my other states without any consideration of internal US politics.
And it might be worth remembering that neither Iran nor Hamas are carrying out a genocide with the help of the US.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:55 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Believe it or not, many political actions are taken my other states without any consideration of internal US politics.
And it might be worth remembering that neither Iran nor Hamas are carrying out a genocide with the help of the US.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:55 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Even if Putin called up Iran and said, "Hey, tell Hamas the US is coming up on an election year so it's perfect timing to take some hostages," that still wouldn't answer the question about disinformation and its effects.
posted by mittens at 3:05 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
posted by mittens at 3:05 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Maybe the Omelas bargain is just not worth making? Maybe we don't actually deserve to live safe and uncomplicated lives that are bought with torture?
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:46 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:46 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
Even if Putin called up Iran and said, "Hey, tell Hamas the US is coming up on an election year so it's perfect timing to take some hostages," that still wouldn't answer the question about disinformation and its effects.
If Putin phoned in a war, it implies disinformation to deny it. Might as well say that Putin denies using disinformation, therefore it doesn't happen. Trump did the same.
posted by Brian B. at 3:48 PM on April 3
If Putin phoned in a war, it implies disinformation to deny it. Might as well say that Putin denies using disinformation, therefore it doesn't happen. Trump did the same.
posted by Brian B. at 3:48 PM on April 3
Might as well say that Putin denies using disinformation, therefore it doesn't happen.
The problem with disinformation is that it creates an environment where nothing can really be believed, making everyone more susceptible to emotional appeals. Unsupported claims about disinformation contribute to that atmosphere. Thus, clarity is needed: What is the breadth and effect of the disinformation efforts? That is, we should move away from the rhetoric of "might as well say," away from point-scoring and from a metaconversation that dwells on tone rather than answering these clear and basic questions. We are asked to believe a proposition: Putin has used certain tools to turn us against Israel, in a way we would not normally have turned against Israel if only faced with the bare facts of this war. And those tools are specifically not the tools of foreign policy, the push-and-shove of favors and influence, but rather of a certain kind of propaganda.
So this should be very easy: Demonstrate the tools in use, and their impact.
posted by mittens at 4:20 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
The problem with disinformation is that it creates an environment where nothing can really be believed, making everyone more susceptible to emotional appeals. Unsupported claims about disinformation contribute to that atmosphere. Thus, clarity is needed: What is the breadth and effect of the disinformation efforts? That is, we should move away from the rhetoric of "might as well say," away from point-scoring and from a metaconversation that dwells on tone rather than answering these clear and basic questions. We are asked to believe a proposition: Putin has used certain tools to turn us against Israel, in a way we would not normally have turned against Israel if only faced with the bare facts of this war. And those tools are specifically not the tools of foreign policy, the push-and-shove of favors and influence, but rather of a certain kind of propaganda.
So this should be very easy: Demonstrate the tools in use, and their impact.
posted by mittens at 4:20 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
So this should be very easy: Demonstrate the tools in use, and their impact.
There are 3 links in the penultimate paragraph of the original post which provide the requested information, including a very sensible and plainly stated interview with Impeachment I hero Fiona Hill linked as "What is Russia’s role in the Israel-Gaza crisis?". I suggest it as a good starting point.
One thing Hill says which I think sums up the disconnect here: "What Putin does is he attempts to ride a wave that’s already there." The argument is not that anger about Gaza isn't real, it's that it is being amplified to assist Putin's goals of sowing discord and distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 4:43 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
There are 3 links in the penultimate paragraph of the original post which provide the requested information, including a very sensible and plainly stated interview with Impeachment I hero Fiona Hill linked as "What is Russia’s role in the Israel-Gaza crisis?". I suggest it as a good starting point.
One thing Hill says which I think sums up the disconnect here: "What Putin does is he attempts to ride a wave that’s already there." The argument is not that anger about Gaza isn't real, it's that it is being amplified to assist Putin's goals of sowing discord and distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 4:43 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
If Putin phoned in a war, it implies disinformation to deny it.
Yes. Putin might lie. This is not a novel insight.
The argument is not that anger about Gaza isn't real, it's that it is being amplified to assist Putin's goals of sowing discord and distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya.
What, exactly is being done to "amplify" this anger? What could possibly do more to outrage people than engaging in a deliberate campaign of mass murder that targets those attempting to prevent a famine?
There is no need for an elaborate plot. Benjamin Netanyahu is carrying out a genocide, because he wants to carry out a genocide against Palestinians. Joe Biden is assisting him in doing so, because he wants to do so. People are disgusted and enraged because their behavior is despicable. Netanyahu and Biden have blood on their hands, and in a just world they'd be treated like Milosevic or Tojo.
The disinformation campaign people are falling for is the one claiming Israel is acting in self-defense, or that Biden isn't actively worsening the genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:01 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Yes. Putin might lie. This is not a novel insight.
The argument is not that anger about Gaza isn't real, it's that it is being amplified to assist Putin's goals of sowing discord and distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya.
What, exactly is being done to "amplify" this anger? What could possibly do more to outrage people than engaging in a deliberate campaign of mass murder that targets those attempting to prevent a famine?
There is no need for an elaborate plot. Benjamin Netanyahu is carrying out a genocide, because he wants to carry out a genocide against Palestinians. Joe Biden is assisting him in doing so, because he wants to do so. People are disgusted and enraged because their behavior is despicable. Netanyahu and Biden have blood on their hands, and in a just world they'd be treated like Milosevic or Tojo.
The disinformation campaign people are falling for is the one claiming Israel is acting in self-defense, or that Biden isn't actively worsening the genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:01 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
The argument is not that anger about Gaza isn't real, it's that it is being amplified to assist Putin's goals of sowing discord and distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya.
Okay, but let's assume the counterfactual, arguendo: what if Putin weren't "amplifying" this anger and discontent? What would that look like in practice? Is the proposition simply that fewer people would be seeing the horrors on social media and becoming angry/radicalized by them? And/or that people would be less equipped to counter Israeli disinformation (of which there is a lot), and therefore would stay more quiescent? It really seems like "acquiescence to the status quo" is the underlying unstated desire of all these links.
(I mean, the Brookings link from the OP, the "Parsing Disinformation" one, actively repeats Israeli propaganda, questions the value of independent analysis by domain experts, and heavily implies that if you fail to endorse the American state narrative you are Doing What Putin Wants.)
Fundamentally, it seems to me that if you are doing something evil, and your enemies are making hay of it via propaganda, the easiest way to counter that is to stop doing the thing.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:03 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Okay, but let's assume the counterfactual, arguendo: what if Putin weren't "amplifying" this anger and discontent? What would that look like in practice? Is the proposition simply that fewer people would be seeing the horrors on social media and becoming angry/radicalized by them? And/or that people would be less equipped to counter Israeli disinformation (of which there is a lot), and therefore would stay more quiescent? It really seems like "acquiescence to the status quo" is the underlying unstated desire of all these links.
(I mean, the Brookings link from the OP, the "Parsing Disinformation" one, actively repeats Israeli propaganda, questions the value of independent analysis by domain experts, and heavily implies that if you fail to endorse the American state narrative you are Doing What Putin Wants.)
Fundamentally, it seems to me that if you are doing something evil, and your enemies are making hay of it via propaganda, the easiest way to counter that is to stop doing the thing.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:03 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
On reload: yes, exactly what The Manwich Horror said.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:03 PM on April 3
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:03 PM on April 3
How Russia uses the Israel-Gaza Crisis in its disinformation campaign against the West.
"we [Russia] can only help Palestine in the fight against those who are behind this tragedy [Gaza]…. We, Russia, are fighting them within the framework of the Special Military Operation."
posted by clavdivs at 5:04 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
"we [Russia] can only help Palestine in the fight against those who are behind this tragedy [Gaza]…. We, Russia, are fighting them within the framework of the Special Military Operation."
posted by clavdivs at 5:04 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
That is, we should move away from the rhetoric of "might as well say," away from point-scoring and from a metaconversation that dwells on tone
Might as well say you disagreed.
posted by Brian B. at 5:05 PM on April 3
Might as well say you disagreed.
posted by Brian B. at 5:05 PM on April 3
Oh, also:
distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya
Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Syria on Sunday and has been spreading lots of disinformation (there's that word again!) about it. Is their disinformation good because Russia is mad about it? Or is it bad because disinformation is bad?
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:06 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
distracting from Ukraine/Syria/Chechnya
Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Syria on Sunday and has been spreading lots of disinformation (there's that word again!) about it. Is their disinformation good because Russia is mad about it? Or is it bad because disinformation is bad?
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:06 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
* Young Britons exposed to online radicalisation following Hamas attack
* Growing Oct. 7 ‘truther’ groups say Hamas massacre was a false flag
* Misinformation about the Israel-Hamas war is flooding social media.
* Doppelganger: How a Russian disinformation campaign is exploiting the Israel-Hamas war
* Examples of Russian disinformation and the facts
posted by Violet Blue at 5:10 PM on April 3
* Growing Oct. 7 ‘truther’ groups say Hamas massacre was a false flag
* Misinformation about the Israel-Hamas war is flooding social media.
* Doppelganger: How a Russian disinformation campaign is exploiting the Israel-Hamas war
* Examples of Russian disinformation and the facts
posted by Violet Blue at 5:10 PM on April 3
Fundamentally, it seems to me that if you are doing something evil, and your enemies are making hay of it via propaganda, the easiest way to counter that is to stop doing the thing.
I agree, Putin should immediately withdraw from Ukraine.
posted by clavdivs at 5:10 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
I agree, Putin should immediately withdraw from Ukraine.
posted by clavdivs at 5:10 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
I agree, Putin should immediately withdraw from Ukraine.
Yeah, everybody thinks that.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:13 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Yeah, everybody thinks that.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:13 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
The bombing of a foreign embassy is concerning, because it widens the war as feared by Biden. It is not feared by Trump because his far right supporters are hoping for Armageddon as a fulfillment of ancient prophecy, because it validates their beliefs.
posted by Brian B. at 5:16 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 5:16 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
clavdivs: Okay, but functionally nobody who's angry about Palestine thinks that Russia is "helping" by fucking invading Ukraine. Putin and his goons can try to sell whatever stupid bullshit they want about that! I am at this point pretty fucking plugged in to what pro-Palestinian activists are doing, spanning the whole spectrum of activism from "normie liberal who thinks genocide is icky" all the way to "hardcore tankie", and nobody—even the hardcore tankies who think Russia is fine and good—even bothers to repeat this set of talking points because it's such obvious bullshit!
(Now, if Russia started actually helping Palestine by, you know, sending weapons or materiel to the PFLP and Hamas? I suspect that'd move the needle on pro-Russia sentiment among Palestinian activists! But they're not doing that, and nobody with two braincells to rub together thinks they are ever going to do that, and even if they did, most pro-Palestinian activists would likely critically support them on that issue while still thinking they need to stop fucking invading Ukraine.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:16 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
(Now, if Russia started actually helping Palestine by, you know, sending weapons or materiel to the PFLP and Hamas? I suspect that'd move the needle on pro-Russia sentiment among Palestinian activists! But they're not doing that, and nobody with two braincells to rub together thinks they are ever going to do that, and even if they did, most pro-Palestinian activists would likely critically support them on that issue while still thinking they need to stop fucking invading Ukraine.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:16 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile: Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
posted by Violet Blue at 5:17 PM on April 3
posted by Violet Blue at 5:17 PM on April 3
I agree, Putin should immediately withdraw from Ukraine.
I agree too!
Meanwhile: Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
Yeah, that's really bad news! Seems like Biden & Congress should send materiel to Ukraine rather than Israel, and—crucially—stop tying both funding & public opinion about Israel's genocide together with Ukraine's fighting a defensive war!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:20 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
I agree too!
Meanwhile: Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
Yeah, that's really bad news! Seems like Biden & Congress should send materiel to Ukraine rather than Israel, and—crucially—stop tying both funding & public opinion about Israel's genocide together with Ukraine's fighting a defensive war!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:20 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile: Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing.
That's specifically the fault of Mike Johnson currently. There keep being articles saying he's about ready to allow movement on the aid, but it keeps not happening because most of the GOP is behind Trump, and Trump is fully backing Putin, and Johnson is a wuss, so...
posted by Dip Flash at 5:20 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
That's specifically the fault of Mike Johnson currently. There keep being articles saying he's about ready to allow movement on the aid, but it keeps not happening because most of the GOP is behind Trump, and Trump is fully backing Putin, and Johnson is a wuss, so...
posted by Dip Flash at 5:20 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Meanwhile: Ukraine is at great risk of its front lines collapsing
If only there were some way for the president to send them weapons without going through congress.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:22 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
If only there were some way for the president to send them weapons without going through congress.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:22 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
If only there were some way for the president to send them weapons without going through congress.
They've already used a bunch of math games to go way beyond what they are "supposed" to be able to simply send over to Ukraine (like revaluing what was sent to be cheaper, to then allow sending more). The House needs to step up and vote for aid, but see the comment above about Trump/Russia/etc. and here we are.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
They've already used a bunch of math games to go way beyond what they are "supposed" to be able to simply send over to Ukraine (like revaluing what was sent to be cheaper, to then allow sending more). The House needs to step up and vote for aid, but see the comment above about Trump/Russia/etc. and here we are.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:26 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
There are 3 links in the penultimate paragraph of the original post which provide the requested information
I wish there were! This conversation would be so much easier if there were! And I really like Fiona Hill! But one thing her interview did not do is support the thesis of the FPP ("Disinformation has one goal: To change the perception of reality of every American"). She talked a lot about foreign policy, and that's fine, but it doesn't answer the question.
Some of the links reference RT or Sputnik, and I think those would be great examples, but again, the other half of the question is trying to find some analysis of the impact. Are people sharing RT links outside of, like, tankie tweetstorms? (Or, I guess, Telegram foreign policy discussions attended by holistic healers, if we look to the WaPo piece?) The BBC piece Violet Blue just posted gestures to an effect (young people who don't normally post about antisemitism, suddenly posting racist material), but focuses on algorithms pushing engagement rather than Russian efforts, and does not really address people's positions on genocide or Ukraine.
posted by mittens at 5:29 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
I wish there were! This conversation would be so much easier if there were! And I really like Fiona Hill! But one thing her interview did not do is support the thesis of the FPP ("Disinformation has one goal: To change the perception of reality of every American"). She talked a lot about foreign policy, and that's fine, but it doesn't answer the question.
Some of the links reference RT or Sputnik, and I think those would be great examples, but again, the other half of the question is trying to find some analysis of the impact. Are people sharing RT links outside of, like, tankie tweetstorms? (Or, I guess, Telegram foreign policy discussions attended by holistic healers, if we look to the WaPo piece?) The BBC piece Violet Blue just posted gestures to an effect (young people who don't normally post about antisemitism, suddenly posting racist material), but focuses on algorithms pushing engagement rather than Russian efforts, and does not really address people's positions on genocide or Ukraine.
posted by mittens at 5:29 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Syria on Sunday and has been spreading lots of disinformation (there's that word again!) about it. Is their disinformation good because Russia is mad about it? Or is it bad because disinformation is bad?
First: Why did Israeli bomb the embassy. what disinformation is being spread. who is doing the disinformation. what's the subject matter of the disinformation.
if the subject matter is the attack on the Iranian embassy in Syria perhaps it's retaliation for this.
posted by clavdivs at 5:31 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
First: Why did Israeli bomb the embassy. what disinformation is being spread. who is doing the disinformation. what's the subject matter of the disinformation.
if the subject matter is the attack on the Iranian embassy in Syria perhaps it's retaliation for this.
posted by clavdivs at 5:31 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
And to be fair, while yes, the US GOP is a serious problem in terms of supporting Ukraine right now, Europe's near-complete inability to restart its own arms industry is, in the long term a much more serious problem. Versus Gaza, where the Europeans are, on average, saying supportive things but not doing a whole lot aside from helping keep shipping lanes open.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:33 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 5:33 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
if the subject matter is the attack on the Iranian embassy in Syria perhaps it's retaliation for this.
I'll admit to not being an expert, but I think that bombing an embassy full of civilians in a neutral country is generally frowned upon. Admittedly, it pales in comparison to the horror of deliberately starving and bombing a million plus civilians.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:44 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
I'll admit to not being an expert, but I think that bombing an embassy full of civilians in a neutral country is generally frowned upon. Admittedly, it pales in comparison to the horror of deliberately starving and bombing a million plus civilians.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:44 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
if the subject matter is the attack on the Iranian embassy in Syria perhaps it's retaliation for this.
It doesn't fucking matter if it was "retaliation". Embassies are so completely fucking off limits that this is only the second time in a hundred years that a state actor has (openly) done so. (The last time it was the US bombing the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999; we claimed it was a mistake, apologized profusely, and paid extensive reparations.)
The disinformation being spread by Israel is primarily "it wasn't really an embassy, it was just a building next to the embassy" (not true, the entire street is consulates & embassies, and anything on the grounds of an embassy is part of the fucking embassy), and "and anyway it was okay because they're harboring terrorists" (also not fucking true under international law). They're flogging that shit everywhere on social media.
Iran and Russia have predictably denounced the attack on the embassy. The absolute shame of the global north is that nobody else has. Israel is actively trying to start WWIII and the rest of the West is pretty obviously just going to let them.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:49 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
It doesn't fucking matter if it was "retaliation". Embassies are so completely fucking off limits that this is only the second time in a hundred years that a state actor has (openly) done so. (The last time it was the US bombing the Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999; we claimed it was a mistake, apologized profusely, and paid extensive reparations.)
The disinformation being spread by Israel is primarily "it wasn't really an embassy, it was just a building next to the embassy" (not true, the entire street is consulates & embassies, and anything on the grounds of an embassy is part of the fucking embassy), and "and anyway it was okay because they're harboring terrorists" (also not fucking true under international law). They're flogging that shit everywhere on social media.
Iran and Russia have predictably denounced the attack on the embassy. The absolute shame of the global north is that nobody else has. Israel is actively trying to start WWIII and the rest of the West is pretty obviously just going to let them.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:49 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
Embassies are so completely fucking off limits that this is only the second time in a hundred years that a state actor has (openly) done so.
Iran once stormed an embassy on their own soil and took hostages. I forgot which embassy (and which party lost an election because of it).
posted by Brian B. at 5:53 PM on April 3
Iran once stormed an embassy on their own soil and took hostages. I forgot which embassy (and which party lost an election because of it).
posted by Brian B. at 5:53 PM on April 3
But it's really depressing to me that the very clear position of a lot of the people in this thread is "it's only disinformation if it's perpetrated by people we call our enemies; otherwise it's just sparkling statecraft".
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:53 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:53 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Brian B: yes, and that sucked and was terrible! And Iran was punished with crippling sanctions by most of the international community for decades afterward! Do you think that's likely to happen here?
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:56 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:56 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
A Vox Explainer on Disinformation
Worst Online Offenders
Worst Online Offenders
Plenty of blue-checked X users have indeed been sharing misinformation about the Israel-Hamas war. Some claim to be sharing footage of the war in action when in fact they are just repurposing clips from a video game and getting millions of views. Those videos are also getting views on TikTok.
TikTok has, in some ways, stepped into the role Twitter once had as the key social media app that people turn to in order to follow a major news event. The app, which many think of as an entertainment platform, is very different from Twitter in the 2010s, when it was a must-read for breaking news. While Twitter anointed its share of expert influencers, creators are the main conduit for news on TikTok. The app’s news creators build fandoms around their personalities and promise of independence from, say, mainstream sources. All that said, TikTok also has issues with misinformation.The Sift Method
The SIFT method, developed by digital literacy expert Mike Caulfield, is a good framework for learning how to evaluate emotionally charged or outrage-inducing online posts in the middle of an unfolding crisis.
The SIFT method breaks down to four steps: “Stop, Investigate the source, Find better coverage, and Trace claims, quotes, and media to the original context.” That “Stop” step can do a lot of work during a major, violent conflict like the Israel-Hamas war. People get engagement on questionable or untrue posts during breaking news by tugging on your emotions and beliefs. So if a video, photograph, or post about the war seems to confirm everything you’ve ever believed about a topic or makes you immediately furious or hopeful or upset, stop yourself from instantly sharing it.
Then, investigate the source. This can be done pretty quickly. Click on the account sharing the thing you saw and glance at their information and previous posts. You’re not launching a full-scale investigation here. You’re just trying to get a sense of who has ended up in your feed. Next, find better coverage. That means you open up a bunch of tabs. Is this being reported anywhere else by trustworthy news sources? Has this claim been fact-checked? And finally, trace the source. Open up the news article and run a search for a phrase in the quote you’re about to share. See if you can find that image attributed elsewhere, and make sure the captions describe the same thing.From an earlier article by the same author:
Your attention matters …
First, realize that what you do online makes a difference. “People often think that because they’re not influencers, they’re not politicians, they’re not journalists, that what they do [online] doesn’t matter,” Whitney Phillips, an assistant professor of communication and rhetorical studies at Syracuse University, told me in 2020. But it does matter. Sharing dubious information with even a small circle of friends and family can lead to its wider dissemination.
… and so do your angry quote tweets and duets.posted by Violet Blue at 6:05 PM on April 3
While an urgent news story is developing, well-meaning people may quote, tweet, share, or duet with a post on social media to challenge and condemn it. Twitter and Facebook have introduced new rules, moderation tactics, and fact-checking provisions to try to combat misinformation. But interacting with misinformation at all risks amplifying the content you’re trying to minimize, because it signals to the platform that you find it interesting. Instead of engaging with a post you know to be wrong, try flagging it for review by the platform where you saw it.
Phew. Good thing I've been looking at and sharing news from establishment media (with explanation and tone tags as needed to establish provenance and angle).
posted by cendawanita at 6:09 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:09 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Iran is not a neutral country. It funds Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houti, among others.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:10 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Violet Blue at 6:10 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
Iran is not a neutral country. It funds Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houti, among others.
The United States is also not a neutral country. It funds Israeli settlers, the Taliban, anti-Assad rebels, and many others.
(If AnsarAllah are "terrorists", then the anti-Assad rebels are "terrorists". Both the Syrian and Yemeni official governments are oppressive and terrible; saying that one set of rebels are "terorrists" and the other are "freedom fighters" because in one case the US supports the official government and in the other case it doesn't is, well.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:15 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
The United States is also not a neutral country. It funds Israeli settlers, the Taliban, anti-Assad rebels, and many others.
(If AnsarAllah are "terrorists", then the anti-Assad rebels are "terrorists". Both the Syrian and Yemeni official governments are oppressive and terrible; saying that one set of rebels are "terorrists" and the other are "freedom fighters" because in one case the US supports the official government and in the other case it doesn't is, well.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:15 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Also, yes, the SIFT method is good advice! Everyone i know follows it, whether or not they call it that or not! The thing is, when the bad stuff is in fact really happening, people are going to get angry about it! And they're going to get even angrier when Official Media Outlets gaslight them about it! You can't actually blame that on the fucking Russians or the Chinese or whoever the villain of the week is!
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:16 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:16 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Here's the thing: if the Iranian embassy is fair game, then US embassies are also fair game. And that's fine! If you want every anti-American country on earth to decide that they have carte blanche to bomb US civilians and wreck international diplomacy forever because they're mad at the US government (which certainly does a whole shitload of things to be justifiably mad at), well, that's certainly a choice.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:18 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:18 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Brian B: yes, and that sucked and was terrible! And Iran was punished with crippling sanctions by most of the international community for decades afterward! Do you think that's likely to happen here?
Minus the spare military parts in question, see Ollie North saga. But let's back up. Those revolutionary guards were rewarded with Iran itself, all other would-be post-Shah dreamers and democratic allies were killed or banned, brutally betrayed after supporting the theocrats. I would even wager that among those three commanders killed in the recent bombing at least one or more were involved with the embassy storming in 1979, done by radical "students" hellbent on rolling back the calendar on women by a hundred years. Regardless, the effect it had on American politics derailed progress forever perhaps, starting with Reagan, the political beneficiary, and shaped every conversation we are having. They know it worked to achieve their goals.
posted by Brian B. at 6:25 PM on April 3
Minus the spare military parts in question, see Ollie North saga. But let's back up. Those revolutionary guards were rewarded with Iran itself, all other would-be post-Shah dreamers and democratic allies were killed or banned, brutally betrayed after supporting the theocrats. I would even wager that among those three commanders killed in the recent bombing at least one or more were involved with the embassy storming in 1979, done by radical "students" hellbent on rolling back the calendar on women by a hundred years. Regardless, the effect it had on American politics derailed progress forever perhaps, starting with Reagan, the political beneficiary, and shaped every conversation we are having. They know it worked to achieve their goals.
posted by Brian B. at 6:25 PM on April 3
I would even wager that among those three commanders killed in the recent bombing at least one or more were involved with the embassy storming in 1979, done by radical students hellbent on rolling back the calendar on women by a hundred years.
That's possible! And it still doesn't fucking mean bombing an embassy is acceptable. You don't get to commit war crimes because someone else did it first! This isn't goddamn kindergarten!
(Also, yes, but Oliver North was crucified about the weapons, right up until it became official policy to basically pretend the whole thing never happened.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:29 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
That's possible! And it still doesn't fucking mean bombing an embassy is acceptable. You don't get to commit war crimes because someone else did it first! This isn't goddamn kindergarten!
(Also, yes, but Oliver North was crucified about the weapons, right up until it became official policy to basically pretend the whole thing never happened.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:29 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I'll admit to not being an expert, but I think that bombing an embassy full of civilians in a neutral country is generally frowned upon. Admittedly, it pales in comparison to the horror of deliberately starving and bombing a million plus civilians.
I agree. it does pale, it even seems like the old days when Israel was merely an apartheid state trading missles with it's neighbors. The moral imperative, the basis for an attack is rooted in a military culture from both sides. Proxy tries to take out a ship, state actor breaks more international laws to kill terrorists.
I understand, you might not come from military culture, and I don't mean one's family, oh that does not preclude them being part of a military culture. a military culture would for example be the United States or Iran. this doesn't excuse or explain any of that and events that have gone on but it does isolate a sociological aspect that humans need to reexamine.
response of the United States to the attack the Iranian embassy in Syria was"we had nothing with it"⁰ which I think is an even and measured response also a lot of the air activity in the last couple days in Iraq serves as a deterrent to Iran if they choose to attack a United States Target.
em>I forgot which embassy
let's see was it January 7th when the Vietnamese took over Phnom Penh. which could have escalated the China Vietnamese War later on that year in which Vietnam was a client state to the Soviet Union. did the Soviet Union take the embassy in Kabul in 1979 or 1980.
it's all so very confusing.
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
I agree. it does pale, it even seems like the old days when Israel was merely an apartheid state trading missles with it's neighbors. The moral imperative, the basis for an attack is rooted in a military culture from both sides. Proxy tries to take out a ship, state actor breaks more international laws to kill terrorists.
I understand, you might not come from military culture, and I don't mean one's family, oh that does not preclude them being part of a military culture. a military culture would for example be the United States or Iran. this doesn't excuse or explain any of that and events that have gone on but it does isolate a sociological aspect that humans need to reexamine.
response of the United States to the attack the Iranian embassy in Syria was"we had nothing with it"⁰ which I think is an even and measured response also a lot of the air activity in the last couple days in Iraq serves as a deterrent to Iran if they choose to attack a United States Target.
em>I forgot which embassy
let's see was it January 7th when the Vietnamese took over Phnom Penh. which could have escalated the China Vietnamese War later on that year in which Vietnam was a client state to the Soviet Union. did the Soviet Union take the embassy in Kabul in 1979 or 1980.
it's all so very confusing.
posted by clavdivs at 6:31 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
if the Iranian embassy is fair game, then US embassies are also fair game. And that's fine! If you want every anti-American country on earth to decide that they have carte blanche to bomb US civilians and wreck international diplomacy forever
That dynamic isn't new, e.g. 1998 East Africa embassy bombings.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:34 PM on April 3
That dynamic isn't new, e.g. 1998 East Africa embassy bombings.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:34 PM on April 3
Official Media Outlets
Journalism is really not in good shape in the U.S., and it's often reflected in foreign coverage, which can be ignorant, cursory or otherwise lacking. The easiest workaround is to see (even very quickly) what multiple "Official Media Outlets" say, not just one.
if the Iranian embassy is fair game, then US embassies are also fair game.
I can't disagree with you there. I also expect we agree on the fact that Bibi is a genuinely terrible leader.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:36 PM on April 3
Journalism is really not in good shape in the U.S., and it's often reflected in foreign coverage, which can be ignorant, cursory or otherwise lacking. The easiest workaround is to see (even very quickly) what multiple "Official Media Outlets" say, not just one.
if the Iranian embassy is fair game, then US embassies are also fair game.
I can't disagree with you there. I also expect we agree on the fact that Bibi is a genuinely terrible leader.
posted by Violet Blue at 6:36 PM on April 3
The easiest workaround is to see (even very quickly) what multiple "Official Media Outlets" say, not just one.
Yes, but that doesn't help when all of them are parroting the official line of US or Israeli (or Russian, i suppose, in theory) disinformation. Which, in the case of Israel's genocide, they very frequently are!
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:39 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Yes, but that doesn't help when all of them are parroting the official line of US or Israeli (or Russian, i suppose, in theory) disinformation. Which, in the case of Israel's genocide, they very frequently are!
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:39 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
if the Iranian embassy is fair game, then US embassies are also fair game
huh.
I don't think anybody in this thread has suggested that bombing and embassy is fair game. I think you created the fair game scenario to use the United States as an example of a similar action expecting a different result.
posted by clavdivs at 6:39 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
huh.
I don't think anybody in this thread has suggested that bombing and embassy is fair game. I think you created the fair game scenario to use the United States as an example of a similar action expecting a different result.
posted by clavdivs at 6:39 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
Dip Flash: yes, and certainly US embassies have been targets of other groups in the past and will continue to be so. But the East Africa bombings were by non-state actors. Do people really want to add official state actors to the list of "people who may just decide to bomb our embassy on a bad day"?
Honestly, i think the last six months have put paid to the last shreds of credibility IHL and the laws of war ever had (which was never much more than vestigial, unfortunately) and we are all going to be living with the consequences of that for the rest of our lives.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:42 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Honestly, i think the last six months have put paid to the last shreds of credibility IHL and the laws of war ever had (which was never much more than vestigial, unfortunately) and we are all going to be living with the consequences of that for the rest of our lives.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:42 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Taking one salient share from the links I just posted in the Gaza thread:
Le Monde is finally surfacing journalism that debunked the 40 beheaded babies disinfo: « Quarante bébés décapités » : itinéraire d’une rumeur au cœur de la bataille de l’information entre Israël et le Hamas - my french isn't great so my quick scan isn't necessarily showing anything new to me.
Comment cette fausse information est-elle née ? Peut-on la comparer à l’affaire des couveuses du Koweït, un récit fabriqué de toutes pièces de bébés kidnappés et massacrés, qui avait en partie servi à justifier la première guerre du Golfe ? L’enquête du Monde met en lumière une rumeur née de manière organique, d’un mélange d’émotion, de confusion et d’exagération macabre. Mais Israël n’a rien fait pour lutter contre, et a plus souvent tenté de l’instrumentaliser que de la démentir, alimentant les accusations de manipulation médiatique. Emphasis for me: "But Israel did nothing to fight against it, and more often tried to exploit it than to deny it, fueling accusations of media manipulation."
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Le Monde is finally surfacing journalism that debunked the 40 beheaded babies disinfo: « Quarante bébés décapités » : itinéraire d’une rumeur au cœur de la bataille de l’information entre Israël et le Hamas - my french isn't great so my quick scan isn't necessarily showing anything new to me.
Comment cette fausse information est-elle née ? Peut-on la comparer à l’affaire des couveuses du Koweït, un récit fabriqué de toutes pièces de bébés kidnappés et massacrés, qui avait en partie servi à justifier la première guerre du Golfe ? L’enquête du Monde met en lumière une rumeur née de manière organique, d’un mélange d’émotion, de confusion et d’exagération macabre. Mais Israël n’a rien fait pour lutter contre, et a plus souvent tenté de l’instrumentaliser que de la démentir, alimentant les accusations de manipulation médiatique. Emphasis for me: "But Israel did nothing to fight against it, and more often tried to exploit it than to deny it, fueling accusations of media manipulation."
posted by cendawanita at 6:44 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
If the Iranian embassy was not "fair game", why have we not seen international condemnation for this blatant, intentional strike *by a state*.
The 1998 East Africa bombings are very significantly different, in that whether, say, the Sudanese government was involved or not, they didn't put it on their own letterhead and dare the rest of the world to say anything about it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:45 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
The 1998 East Africa bombings are very significantly different, in that whether, say, the Sudanese government was involved or not, they didn't put it on their own letterhead and dare the rest of the world to say anything about it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:45 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
You don't get to commit war crimes because someone else did it first! This isn't goddamn kindergarten!
I was taught in kindergarten that all war is a crime. I think I need to go back to kindergarten.
posted by clavdivs at 6:46 PM on April 3
I was taught in kindergarten that all war is a crime. I think I need to go back to kindergarten.
posted by clavdivs at 6:46 PM on April 3
Minus the spare military parts in question, see Ollie North saga. But let's back up. Those revolutionary guards were rewarded with Iran itself
and they kick the s*** out of Saddam Hussein. outnumbered and outgun they still faught like lions.
(there I go, anthromorphizing war
good night, and good luck
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
and they kick the s*** out of Saddam Hussein. outnumbered and outgun they still faught like lions.
(there I go, anthromorphizing war
good night, and good luck
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
Do you think that's likely to happen here?
To answer this directly, assuming it means here and now, yes, Iran wishes to cause a giant world war in the entire middle east to radicalize everyone possible and create an Iranian empire. They know they will win any stupid war called Armageddon, by the numbers, and receive a lot of aid and assistance in doing so. I have a hard time believing what causes anyone to think otherwise. Underestimating ambition and advantage of foes is due to entitlement, distance, and cost arrogance. This informs Biden as he relates to Israel, no doubt, because the CIA knows all this.
posted by Brian B. at 6:52 PM on April 3
To answer this directly, assuming it means here and now, yes, Iran wishes to cause a giant world war in the entire middle east to radicalize everyone possible and create an Iranian empire. They know they will win any stupid war called Armageddon, by the numbers, and receive a lot of aid and assistance in doing so. I have a hard time believing what causes anyone to think otherwise. Underestimating ambition and advantage of foes is due to entitlement, distance, and cost arrogance. This informs Biden as he relates to Israel, no doubt, because the CIA knows all this.
posted by Brian B. at 6:52 PM on April 3
yes, Iran wishes to cause a giant world war in the entire middle east to radicalize everyone possible and create an Iranian empire
...Israel bombed the Iranian embassy, not vice versa.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:53 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
...Israel bombed the Iranian embassy, not vice versa.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:53 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
Iran wishes to cause a giant world war in the entire middle east
To the best of my understanding of The Blob and people adjacent to it + the actions of Iran (and Iran vis-a-vis Hezbollah in the last... month), this assertion doesn't have any real analytical heft.
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
To the best of my understanding of The Blob and people adjacent to it + the actions of Iran (and Iran vis-a-vis Hezbollah in the last... month), this assertion doesn't have any real analytical heft.
posted by cendawanita at 6:54 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
(betrayed by autocorrect... Saved by the edit window...)
posted by cendawanita at 6:55 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 6:55 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
This informs Biden as he relates to Israel, no doubt, because the CIA knows all this.
The same CIA that has presumably told him that Israel hasn't violated international humanitarian law?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:00 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
The same CIA that has presumably told him that Israel hasn't violated international humanitarian law?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:00 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Iran wishes to cause a giant world war in the entire middle east
To the best of my understanding of The Blob and people adjacent to it + the actions of Iran (and Iran vis-a-vis Hezbollah in the last... month), this assertion doesn't have any real analytical heft.
Yeah, if Iran wanted to have a for-real hot war, they could have one in about five minutes by either attacking Israel directly or attacking US forces which are within easy range. They (and the US, and Israel, and to a lesser extent Russia in Syria) have been extremely careful to not have that happen. Everything stays at a slight remove, via proxies mostly, and there are a lot of back-channel communications happening to keep the tension "only" at a very high level, not actually bubbling over. There's a lot of risk of someone doing something that triggers an open conflict, since everyone is pushing right up to the line and sometimes slightly past it, but so far it hasn't happened (which is very, very good for everyone).
I hate the dynamic, because it is so risky and is also causing harm to actual, real people, not just abstractions like "nation states." But all sides are fully participating in it, so it's going to have to be some kind of negotiated pathway to less tensions. No one's going to bomb their way to peace.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:06 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
To the best of my understanding of The Blob and people adjacent to it + the actions of Iran (and Iran vis-a-vis Hezbollah in the last... month), this assertion doesn't have any real analytical heft.
Yeah, if Iran wanted to have a for-real hot war, they could have one in about five minutes by either attacking Israel directly or attacking US forces which are within easy range. They (and the US, and Israel, and to a lesser extent Russia in Syria) have been extremely careful to not have that happen. Everything stays at a slight remove, via proxies mostly, and there are a lot of back-channel communications happening to keep the tension "only" at a very high level, not actually bubbling over. There's a lot of risk of someone doing something that triggers an open conflict, since everyone is pushing right up to the line and sometimes slightly past it, but so far it hasn't happened (which is very, very good for everyone).
I hate the dynamic, because it is so risky and is also causing harm to actual, real people, not just abstractions like "nation states." But all sides are fully participating in it, so it's going to have to be some kind of negotiated pathway to less tensions. No one's going to bomb their way to peace.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:06 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
@ BrianB is correct.
Saudi Arabia wanted a U.S. security guarantee for fear of Iran. The U.S. was already beginning to broker the deal, making a guarantee contingent on a Saudi-Israeli peace accord and the creation of a Israeli-Palestinian two-state framework when Hamas attacked. Hamas attacked when they did because Saudi is the last major Sunni state to not have a peace accord with Israel. Saudi doesn't want a war with Israel to last long because in a Sunni-Shiite war, they want Israel on their side.
posted by Violet Blue at 7:07 PM on April 3
Saudi Arabia wanted a U.S. security guarantee for fear of Iran. The U.S. was already beginning to broker the deal, making a guarantee contingent on a Saudi-Israeli peace accord and the creation of a Israeli-Palestinian two-state framework when Hamas attacked. Hamas attacked when they did because Saudi is the last major Sunni state to not have a peace accord with Israel. Saudi doesn't want a war with Israel to last long because in a Sunni-Shiite war, they want Israel on their side.
posted by Violet Blue at 7:07 PM on April 3
Yes, that's the Saudi dynamic. Iran is still its own country and needs analysis on what they're actually doing.
There is a lot of bobbing and weaving here. I'm really trying to stay on the points that keep being used and then discarded with no comment.
posted by cendawanita at 7:10 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
There is a lot of bobbing and weaving here. I'm really trying to stay on the points that keep being used and then discarded with no comment.
posted by cendawanita at 7:10 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
The same CIA that has presumably told him that Israel hasn't violated international humanitarian law?
Burns says cease-fire is needed to help starving children in Gaza.'
huh. My inner warface tells me Iranian leadership hates to hate America were as Putin loves to hate America.
we need to exploit that.
posted by clavdivs at 7:43 PM on April 3
Burns says cease-fire is needed to help starving children in Gaza.'
huh. My inner warface tells me Iranian leadership hates to hate America were as Putin loves to hate America.
we need to exploit that.
posted by clavdivs at 7:43 PM on April 3
Israel bombed the Iranian embassy, not vice versa.
That's the point. Netanyahu likely thinks his job and legacy depends on widening the war and creating US bases in Israel. Three commanders of terrorist units not in a bunker is Israel exposing their thoughts about pretending they aren't combatants during a conflict. It reveals their position and planning about all of it. Meanwhile, Trump declared this election to likely be the last, an encoded message to rapture doomers and theocrats.
posted by Brian B. at 7:47 PM on April 3
That's the point. Netanyahu likely thinks his job and legacy depends on widening the war and creating US bases in Israel. Three commanders of terrorist units not in a bunker is Israel exposing their thoughts about pretending they aren't combatants during a conflict. It reveals their position and planning about all of it. Meanwhile, Trump declared this election to likely be the last, an encoded message to rapture doomers and theocrats.
posted by Brian B. at 7:47 PM on April 3
Three commanders of terrorist units not in a bunker
Three officers of a regular army (and several civilians) in an embassy. These parts really are important, no matter how much you seem to want them not to be.
(If every former terrorist is fair game no matter what, then someone should probably assassinate Benny Gantz. If officers of a regular army who commit war crimes are automatically terrorists, then someone should probably assassinate every officer in the IOF.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:06 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Three officers of a regular army (and several civilians) in an embassy. These parts really are important, no matter how much you seem to want them not to be.
(If every former terrorist is fair game no matter what, then someone should probably assassinate Benny Gantz. If officers of a regular army who commit war crimes are automatically terrorists, then someone should probably assassinate every officer in the IOF.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:06 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Iran is not a neutral country. It funds Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houti, among others.
Last I checked, whether Iran was neutral or not had very little to do with whether it is acceptable to bomb an embassy in Syria.
And the US has been backing the Saudi's and aligned forces in Yemen, which are at least as murderous as the Houthis.
But all of this is actual whataboutism. Nothing Iran does justifies the genocide of the people of Gaza. Nothing Iran, or Russia, or Ukraine or anybody else does justifies the US helping murder innocent men, women, and children.
The moral vacuity required to shrug off the horrors being perpetrated right now because acknowledging them might hurt the poll numbers of the people carrying them out is staggering. If Biden doesn't want to lose votes over genocide, it is entirely within his power to stop committing it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:09 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
Last I checked, whether Iran was neutral or not had very little to do with whether it is acceptable to bomb an embassy in Syria.
And the US has been backing the Saudi's and aligned forces in Yemen, which are at least as murderous as the Houthis.
But all of this is actual whataboutism. Nothing Iran does justifies the genocide of the people of Gaza. Nothing Iran, or Russia, or Ukraine or anybody else does justifies the US helping murder innocent men, women, and children.
The moral vacuity required to shrug off the horrors being perpetrated right now because acknowledging them might hurt the poll numbers of the people carrying them out is staggering. If Biden doesn't want to lose votes over genocide, it is entirely within his power to stop committing it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:09 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
And if the answer is going to be: "he'll lose voters whichever way he goes", then why on earth are people not badgering those who might not vote for Biden if he *stops* supporting the genocide about what huge secret Trump and Putin fans they are, how naive and dumb they are about electoral politics.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:12 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:12 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Three officers of a regular army (and several civilians) in an embassy. These parts really are important, no matter how much you seem to want them not to be.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quds-Force
They were the QUDS force regional leadership, the main embassy was not targeted it seems, but whether they are terrorists or not depends on how you view their influence or control over Houti terrorists and ISIS. Those are their clients. And Hamas. I should note that regular army institutions usually hate these guys for terrorizing them.
posted by Brian B. at 8:18 PM on April 3
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Quds-Force
They were the QUDS force regional leadership, the main embassy was not targeted it seems, but whether they are terrorists or not depends on how you view their influence or control over Houti terrorists and ISIS. Those are their clients. And Hamas. I should note that regular army institutions usually hate these guys for terrorizing them.
posted by Brian B. at 8:18 PM on April 3
They were the QUDS force regional leadership
Yes, the Quds force is an official state military entity. It isn't Iran's regular army, but it is also not a paramilitary or non-state force.
the main embassy was not targeted it seems
Oh, there's thatRussian Israeli disinformation again!
A building on the grounds of a diplomatic mission is part of the fucking mission. The NYTimes points out that Israel is likely going to make the argument that it did nothing wrong because the embassy was in Syria, not in Israel—but in practice that would mean that Israel just attacked a different sovereign country (Syria, rather than Iran). Now, Israel has already been randomly bombing Syria, for years (and has significantly escalated since October 7). But seriously, this is a big fucking deal, and the more Israel gets to shit on international law the worse it is for all of us.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:26 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Yes, the Quds force is an official state military entity. It isn't Iran's regular army, but it is also not a paramilitary or non-state force.
the main embassy was not targeted it seems
Oh, there's that
A building on the grounds of a diplomatic mission is part of the fucking mission. The NYTimes points out that Israel is likely going to make the argument that it did nothing wrong because the embassy was in Syria, not in Israel—but in practice that would mean that Israel just attacked a different sovereign country (Syria, rather than Iran). Now, Israel has already been randomly bombing Syria, for years (and has significantly escalated since October 7). But seriously, this is a big fucking deal, and the more Israel gets to shit on international law the worse it is for all of us.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:26 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Like, apparently some of you think that i want Trump to win and establish an American dictatorship, and that i want US and Israeli embassies all over the world to be targeted, i guess? In fact, i want literally none of that, which is why i would like the people who are most responsible for setting us up for that shit to fucking stop.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:27 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:27 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Oh, there's that Russian Israeli disinformation again!
It was on the news, just passing it along. And official state military is making an Iranian legal argument about operating on foreign soil.
posted by Brian B. at 8:29 PM on April 3
It was on the news, just passing it along. And official state military is making an Iranian legal argument about operating on foreign soil.
posted by Brian B. at 8:29 PM on April 3
The Iranians opposed ISIS and the Quds Force was one of the leading elements of that opposition. ("Quds" is a word in Arabic and Farsi that means "holy", and is often used to refer to Jerusalem. It isn't an acronym.)
And if being a member of a military that supports terrorists groups is grounds for summary execution, consistency demands a more radical response to the US military than I expect to be forthcoming.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:29 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
And if being a member of a military that supports terrorists groups is grounds for summary execution, consistency demands a more radical response to the US military than I expect to be forthcoming.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:29 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
The Iranians opposed ISIS and the Quds Force was one of the leading elements of that opposition.
That's true, I was thinking of this group, called Islamic Resistance, attacking US troops, my bad.
posted by Brian B. at 8:39 PM on April 3
That's true, I was thinking of this group, called Islamic Resistance, attacking US troops, my bad.
posted by Brian B. at 8:39 PM on April 3
Nothing Iran, or Russia, or Ukraine or anybody else does justifies the US helping murder innocent men, women, and children.
I see what (about) you did there.
an ugly view the United States sells weapons legally to its own people, and to other countries that wind up killing well a lot.
I've always considered the most interesting question is why would anybody need to buy them.
asymmetrical warfare, geopolitical instability, paradigm shift of technological aspects in warfare concerning space, time, computation. going awareness of the scarcity of resources, man-made natural disasters. for Christ sakes Norway is planning a drone base in the Arctic and what surprises me is I don't have a problem with that. it's a reflexive response rather than a reactionary response. as related historically to disinformation, Andrpov, someone who Putin admires, used disinformation extensively and acts as a modern template, applied with the new technological aspect of mass media to help formulate the same results that being to momentarily confuse, threaten, and Warn as pure propaganda or AGITPROP was becoming more deluded, ineffectual, and often had to reverse effect of creating counter perhaps this is why pure propaganda is intensely so bad. Perhaps this is why Russia shelved alot of Soviet statues.
The disinformation is latching on to the same Narrative this bringing both target and originator in the same moral Narrative. in this case, the United States supplying weapons to Israel whose committing genocide and to Ukraine who are still "Nazis." and are hopelessly lost because of Biden and not the obviously pro-russian politicians holding up the aid under the guise of keeping the Homeland safe.
posted by clavdivs at 9:36 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
I see what (about) you did there.
an ugly view the United States sells weapons legally to its own people, and to other countries that wind up killing well a lot.
I've always considered the most interesting question is why would anybody need to buy them.
asymmetrical warfare, geopolitical instability, paradigm shift of technological aspects in warfare concerning space, time, computation. going awareness of the scarcity of resources, man-made natural disasters. for Christ sakes Norway is planning a drone base in the Arctic and what surprises me is I don't have a problem with that. it's a reflexive response rather than a reactionary response. as related historically to disinformation, Andrpov, someone who Putin admires, used disinformation extensively and acts as a modern template, applied with the new technological aspect of mass media to help formulate the same results that being to momentarily confuse, threaten, and Warn as pure propaganda or AGITPROP was becoming more deluded, ineffectual, and often had to reverse effect of creating counter perhaps this is why pure propaganda is intensely so bad. Perhaps this is why Russia shelved alot of Soviet statues.
The disinformation is latching on to the same Narrative this bringing both target and originator in the same moral Narrative. in this case, the United States supplying weapons to Israel whose committing genocide and to Ukraine who are still "Nazis." and are hopelessly lost because of Biden and not the obviously pro-russian politicians holding up the aid under the guise of keeping the Homeland safe.
posted by clavdivs at 9:36 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
There is no "what about" here.
Either you condemn genocide or you don't.
You either stand with the people of Gaza, or you fail the most basic moral test, and accept the sacrifice countless human lives because they hand holding the blade is "our side".
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:43 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Either you condemn genocide or you don't.
You either stand with the people of Gaza, or you fail the most basic moral test, and accept the sacrifice countless human lives because they hand holding the blade is "our side".
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:43 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Either you condemn genocide or you don't.
I condemn famine and disasters too. I rarely get blamed for them though.
posted by Brian B. at 10:00 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
I condemn famine and disasters too. I rarely get blamed for them though.
posted by Brian B. at 10:00 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
There is a famine going on in Gaza right now. One caused by Israel with the support of the United States. It shouldn't be hard to say this is wrong.
I always thought "Blue MAGA" was an exaggeration. I am sorry to learn otherwise.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:03 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
I always thought "Blue MAGA" was an exaggeration. I am sorry to learn otherwise.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:03 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
I always thought "Blue MAGA" was an exaggeration. I am sorry to learn otherwise.
Trump won't solve it, Putin is involved. Biden has a conscience, so there's that.
posted by Brian B. at 10:28 PM on April 3
Trump won't solve it, Putin is involved. Biden has a conscience, so there's that.
posted by Brian B. at 10:28 PM on April 3
Trump won't solve it, Putin is involved. Biden has a conscience, so there's that.
Has anyone here suggested Trump would be better? Even one?
If Biden has a conscience, he's done an exceptional job hiding it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:29 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
Has anyone here suggested Trump would be better? Even one?
If Biden has a conscience, he's done an exceptional job hiding it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:29 PM on April 3 [6 favorites]
Has anyone here suggested Trump would be better? Even one?
The silence is deafening, as we say.
posted by Brian B. at 10:35 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
The silence is deafening, as we say.
posted by Brian B. at 10:35 PM on April 3 [1 favorite]
The silence is deafening, as we say.
So the answer is no.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:39 PM on April 3 [10 favorites]
There is no reason to think Trump wouldn't be at least as bad as Biden for the people of Gaza and much worse for American minorities.
Do you think that means we should just smile and ignore Joe Biden actively aiding in an ongoing act of mass murder?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:40 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Do you think that means we should just smile and ignore Joe Biden actively aiding in an ongoing act of mass murder?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:40 PM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Has anyone here suggested Trump would be better? Even one?
The above comment comes to mind: "All this fits because Trump had a passive/peaceful foreign policy last time", which was a statement framed in the context of Biden being a stooge for Israeli lobbyists. So yeah, I don't think most commentators here are pro Trump, but they do exist. I recall Noam Chomsky making similar remarks in an interview —while making pro-Putin/anti-Ukraine points, he also mentioned Trump being the peace candidate. So maybe this is where this sentiment is coming from, I don't know.
posted by UN at 1:48 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
The above comment comes to mind: "All this fits because Trump had a passive/peaceful foreign policy last time", which was a statement framed in the context of Biden being a stooge for Israeli lobbyists. So yeah, I don't think most commentators here are pro Trump, but they do exist. I recall Noam Chomsky making similar remarks in an interview —while making pro-Putin/anti-Ukraine points, he also mentioned Trump being the peace candidate. So maybe this is where this sentiment is coming from, I don't know.
posted by UN at 1:48 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
The sentiment has absolutely nothing to do with one line out of a drive-by comment you scraped as an excuse and everything to do with American two-party politics.
It's disgusting and shameful.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:54 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
It's disgusting and shameful.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:54 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
Someone asked for one example. I specifically wrote that I don't think it's representative of everyone here, but it exists.
If it's a drive by comment you also don't agree with, I get it. Why is it shameful for me to point it out?
posted by UN at 2:00 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
If it's a drive by comment you also don't agree with, I get it. Why is it shameful for me to point it out?
posted by UN at 2:00 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Seriously, there's a clear drive here to acknowledge the genocide, and you pick a line out of the mouth of someone who has also said
can maybe share all the genocides equally between the US and Russian alogned sides
As representative of the secret motives of the anti-genocide commenter? Try reading the thread again. Some people view this as all a big arcane complex game of international politics and intrigue and Realpolitik, and some people are sickened by any support for or ignoring of an ongoing genocide.
Read it again and tell me I'm secretly backing Putin with a straight face.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:00 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
can maybe share all the genocides equally between the US and Russian alogned sides
As representative of the secret motives of the anti-genocide commenter? Try reading the thread again. Some people view this as all a big arcane complex game of international politics and intrigue and Realpolitik, and some people are sickened by any support for or ignoring of an ongoing genocide.
Read it again and tell me I'm secretly backing Putin with a straight face.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:00 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
When did I say you're backing Putin? I am truly confused.
posted by UN at 2:03 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by UN at 2:03 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
If you honestly can't tell why that's a very poor example of the secret motives of the people who condemn genocide... I think there's nothing I can do.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:04 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:04 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
When did I say you're backing Putin? I am truly confused.
I'm so done. If you can't read the thread, maybe back out. This whole thread is an example of people who refuse to condemn the genocide claiming that they're doing so because they feel there pro-Putin and pro-Trump propaganda which is exacerbating matters and somehow that means the genocide isn't worth condemning, because that's playing into Putin/Trump's hands.
And given an opportunity to clearly condemn the genocide, you've chosen to hunt for a vague excuse to play "both sides, propaganda" again.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:08 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
I'm so done. If you can't read the thread, maybe back out. This whole thread is an example of people who refuse to condemn the genocide claiming that they're doing so because they feel there pro-Putin and pro-Trump propaganda which is exacerbating matters and somehow that means the genocide isn't worth condemning, because that's playing into Putin/Trump's hands.
And given an opportunity to clearly condemn the genocide, you've chosen to hunt for a vague excuse to play "both sides, propaganda" again.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:08 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Do I need to show up with a certificate of condemnation to have this discussion? Where's yours? And yes, I do condemn the genocide.
So what do we do from here, now that that's established?
posted by UN at 2:15 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
So what do we do from here, now that that's established?
posted by UN at 2:15 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
Maybe the Omelas bargain is just not worth making? Maybe we don't actually deserve to live safe and uncomplicated lives that are bought with torture?
This is essentially my point, but I would like other people to quantify the Omelas bargain they are willing to accept, out loud, even once.
posted by corb at 5:08 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
This is essentially my point, but I would like other people to quantify the Omelas bargain they are willing to accept, out loud, even once.
posted by corb at 5:08 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. Let's stop the back and forth and move on in the conversation
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:38 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I am not sure what more is left to say. It is clear the intent of this post was to frame criticism of and anger at the genocide in Gaza as Russian disinformation. That framing has thoroughly discredited.
If there is no willingness denounce the actions of Israel and the Biden administration at this point, it is clear that no line exists. There is not even the slightest effort to mitigate the harm. Nothing is beyond the pale.
For Trump's supporters, there is no crime so brazen, cruel, and wantonly immoral that will ever provoke any devoation from full throated support. What can you say to sway a Trump supporter who looks at his death toll, his blatant collaboration with murderous, authoritarian regimes, his willingness to spread lies in the service of mass murder and continues to support him?
Ultimately they either give up their fascism or they don't. That sort of uncrossable moral divide proclides any meaningful conversation that doesn't start with repentance.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:02 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
If there is no willingness denounce the actions of Israel and the Biden administration at this point, it is clear that no line exists. There is not even the slightest effort to mitigate the harm. Nothing is beyond the pale.
For Trump's supporters, there is no crime so brazen, cruel, and wantonly immoral that will ever provoke any devoation from full throated support. What can you say to sway a Trump supporter who looks at his death toll, his blatant collaboration with murderous, authoritarian regimes, his willingness to spread lies in the service of mass murder and continues to support him?
Ultimately they either give up their fascism or they don't. That sort of uncrossable moral divide proclides any meaningful conversation that doesn't start with repentance.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:02 AM on April 4 [4 favorites]
It is clear the intent of this post was to frame criticism of and anger at the genocide in Gaza as Russian disinformation. That framing has thoroughly discredited.
If that's your only rhetorical strategy, it's a weak one. If you are confident in your position, be confident. If you think others are wrong here, argue like a grown up. You've discredited nothing. No one was saying there is no genocide, and you know it. What they — and I have said — clearly and repeatedly is that some of the pro-Palestinian passion is heedless of limits and careless about both hate speech and democracy (see the uncommitted vote in some parts of the country) — and that heedlessness is likely stoked by Russian disinformation — something you read, your friend read, someone told you, a meme you saw.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:01 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
If that's your only rhetorical strategy, it's a weak one. If you are confident in your position, be confident. If you think others are wrong here, argue like a grown up. You've discredited nothing. No one was saying there is no genocide, and you know it. What they — and I have said — clearly and repeatedly is that some of the pro-Palestinian passion is heedless of limits and careless about both hate speech and democracy (see the uncommitted vote in some parts of the country) — and that heedlessness is likely stoked by Russian disinformation — something you read, your friend read, someone told you, a meme you saw.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:01 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
We all know it is essential in a democracy that no one fail to support the leader in a primary election. The only way to combat hate speech is of course to be silent when decades of propaganda and apartheid explode into the deliberate murder of an entire population.
If only I and all those Palestinian Americans hadn't seen memes on the TikTok, we wouldn't have gotten so work upped by watching a deliberate starvation of family and coreligionists and fellow human beings and the murder of anyone who tried to help them.
There will come a day when this is long passed, and the true horrors in Gaza will be well documented and roundly condemned. And those who are alive now who remain on that day will have to remember and live with where we stood.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:23 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]
If only I and all those Palestinian Americans hadn't seen memes on the TikTok, we wouldn't have gotten so work upped by watching a deliberate starvation of family and coreligionists and fellow human beings and the murder of anyone who tried to help them.
There will come a day when this is long passed, and the true horrors in Gaza will be well documented and roundly condemned. And those who are alive now who remain on that day will have to remember and live with where we stood.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:23 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]
Accusing the uncommitted movement of being dupes, patsies, Russian agents, or some combination thereof, is exactly the kind of bigoted harassment campaign Dem leadership has been stoking for months now. No Russians required, just the usual political fuckery.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:38 AM on April 4 [12 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:38 AM on April 4 [12 favorites]
If that's your only rhetorical strategy, it's a weak one. If you are confident in your position, be confident. If you think others are wrong here, argue like a grown up. You've discredited nothing. No one was saying there is no genocide, and you know it. What they — and I have said — clearly and repeatedly is that some of the pro-Palestinian passion is heedless of limits and careless about both hate speech and democracy (see the uncommitted vote in some parts of the country) — and that heedlessness is likely stoked by Russian disinformation — something you read, your friend read, someone told you, a meme you saw.
I'm glad you at least finally offered something approaching specifics amid all the weasel words and ad hominem ("argue like a grown-up" "be confident" etc.).
So this is the argument: "the uncommitted vote in some parts of the country...is likely stoked by Russian disinformation — something you read, your friend read, someone told you, a meme you saw."
If this is the claim, can you please provide any evidence of it? Like literally even a link to a newspaper article? Because I feel like right now, the only evidence I've gotten of this claim in this thread is like, vibes. Sandwiched amid a bunch of hyper-defensiveness and demands to be confident and act like a grown-up.
This is anecdotal (though considerably more than you've offered), so perhaps of limited utility but as someone who will vote uncommitted in the Dem primary and has convinced many friends to do so, I can tell you how I was convinced. By speaking to Palestinian-American friends and organizers who told me that they believed it was a good strategy. Maybe they are all Russian disinfo agents and liars but you know, I know someone who's lost several dozen members of their family in Gaza, so that's what pushed me over the line.
But no, it was definitely the memes. That's what's motivating people.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:39 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]
I'm glad you at least finally offered something approaching specifics amid all the weasel words and ad hominem ("argue like a grown-up" "be confident" etc.).
So this is the argument: "the uncommitted vote in some parts of the country...is likely stoked by Russian disinformation — something you read, your friend read, someone told you, a meme you saw."
If this is the claim, can you please provide any evidence of it? Like literally even a link to a newspaper article? Because I feel like right now, the only evidence I've gotten of this claim in this thread is like, vibes. Sandwiched amid a bunch of hyper-defensiveness and demands to be confident and act like a grown-up.
This is anecdotal (though considerably more than you've offered), so perhaps of limited utility but as someone who will vote uncommitted in the Dem primary and has convinced many friends to do so, I can tell you how I was convinced. By speaking to Palestinian-American friends and organizers who told me that they believed it was a good strategy. Maybe they are all Russian disinfo agents and liars but you know, I know someone who's lost several dozen members of their family in Gaza, so that's what pushed me over the line.
But no, it was definitely the memes. That's what's motivating people.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:39 AM on April 4 [8 favorites]
I am begging the very Smart Liberals to understand that Joe Biden is the fucking President. He did this. This week.
Go stand outside the Washington Post and see if you can get them to stop printing the news, I guess.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:46 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]
Go stand outside the Washington Post and see if you can get them to stop printing the news, I guess.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:46 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]
"If you are confident in your position, be confident", says someone who has spent the entire thread evading direct questions
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:53 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:53 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
This is anecdotal (though considerably more than you've offered), so perhaps of limited utility but as someone who will vote uncommitted in the Dem primary and has convinced many friends to do so, I can tell you how I was convinced. By speaking to Palestinian-American friends and organizers who told me that they believed it was a good strategy.
Speaking personally, as someone who is not a political operative or activist, I think the voting-uncommitted campaign is a fantastic approach (much more so than I expected when it started) and has provided some real pressure on the Biden administration. Everyone involved is smart enough to understand that whatever the failings of Biden, that Trump would be far, far worse for Gaza, so I'm not personally worried about it turning into some sort of massive wave of support for Trump despite the occasional overheated postings online. Biden does need to triangulate on this issue simply because there is pressure from both sides in his coalition and he can't afford to lose all of one or the other, in a way that doesn't matter to Trump who is just trying to a) peel off a percentage ofJewish voters and b) hope that pro-Gaza voters stay home. So that means that Biden isn't going to be able to give the activists everything they want, while Trump can say pretty much whatever he wants because he's not in power and he's not relying on the same coalition.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:08 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
Speaking personally, as someone who is not a political operative or activist, I think the voting-uncommitted campaign is a fantastic approach (much more so than I expected when it started) and has provided some real pressure on the Biden administration. Everyone involved is smart enough to understand that whatever the failings of Biden, that Trump would be far, far worse for Gaza, so I'm not personally worried about it turning into some sort of massive wave of support for Trump despite the occasional overheated postings online. Biden does need to triangulate on this issue simply because there is pressure from both sides in his coalition and he can't afford to lose all of one or the other, in a way that doesn't matter to Trump who is just trying to a) peel off a percentage ofJewish voters and b) hope that pro-Gaza voters stay home. So that means that Biden isn't going to be able to give the activists everything they want, while Trump can say pretty much whatever he wants because he's not in power and he's not relying on the same coalition.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:08 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
I'm just so sickened and saddened by this. We've reached a point where the president of the United States is directly assisting in the commission of war crimes.
And it alienates politically active young people and key minorities in swing states. And rather than say he needs to stop, the establishment is angry with those disgusted by what is happening for not giving the Democratic nominee the votes he is due.
And even the mildest protest vote in an election that does not mattee is seen as a threat to democracy. Because democracy is when tou vote how you're told, no matter what we do to you.
I used to think crushing the Republicans would prevent the rise of fascism in the US. I am mot sure that is sufficient any more.
I just hate that it has come to this.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:10 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
And it alienates politically active young people and key minorities in swing states. And rather than say he needs to stop, the establishment is angry with those disgusted by what is happening for not giving the Democratic nominee the votes he is due.
And even the mildest protest vote in an election that does not mattee is seen as a threat to democracy. Because democracy is when tou vote how you're told, no matter what we do to you.
I used to think crushing the Republicans would prevent the rise of fascism in the US. I am mot sure that is sufficient any more.
I just hate that it has come to this.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:10 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
in a way that doesn't matter to Trump who is just trying to a) peel off a percentage ofJewish voters and b) hope that pro-Gaza voters stay home
And to expand on my comment a little here relative to the actual subject of this FPP, this is exactly what a disinformation/troll campaign would be trying to magnify and regardless of whatever the Russians are doing, you can see some of this coming from the GOP already. A few more pro-Gaza people feeling alienated enough to stay home plus a few more pro-Israel people choosing to vote R or stay home, could, in theory, help tip a close election. It's a push at the margins, which maybe works and maybe doesn't and is just working with emotions and beliefs that people are already strongly feeling on their own.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:19 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
And to expand on my comment a little here relative to the actual subject of this FPP, this is exactly what a disinformation/troll campaign would be trying to magnify and regardless of whatever the Russians are doing, you can see some of this coming from the GOP already. A few more pro-Gaza people feeling alienated enough to stay home plus a few more pro-Israel people choosing to vote R or stay home, could, in theory, help tip a close election. It's a push at the margins, which maybe works and maybe doesn't and is just working with emotions and beliefs that people are already strongly feeling on their own.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:19 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
There will come a day when this is long passed, and the true horrors in Gaza will be well documented and roundly condemned.
I would agree, except that nobody has history by the tail. If Putin green lit this war, it will be framed differently by historians. Same with Iran. Never mind Hamas, where a student fifty years from now will assume far more blame to them than anyone here ever did. I think Hamas regrets their decision though, which indicates a gamble they weren't ready for, which indicates outside pressure. Either way, it will forever be described locally however they want it to appear, one way on conservative news, another way on each state media somewhere, etc. Objective history doesn't exist where despots take over. That's why they take over, then keep it in the family.
posted by Brian B. at 9:28 AM on April 4
I would agree, except that nobody has history by the tail. If Putin green lit this war, it will be framed differently by historians. Same with Iran. Never mind Hamas, where a student fifty years from now will assume far more blame to them than anyone here ever did. I think Hamas regrets their decision though, which indicates a gamble they weren't ready for, which indicates outside pressure. Either way, it will forever be described locally however they want it to appear, one way on conservative news, another way on each state media somewhere, etc. Objective history doesn't exist where despots take over. That's why they take over, then keep it in the family.
posted by Brian B. at 9:28 AM on April 4
Putin will be remembered as a monster because he is a monster. His actions have more than proved it.
But nothing he did or did not do absolves Biden and Netanyahu for the genocide in Gaza. Anymore than Hitler makes Stalin the "good guy". But I am not talking about nations. I mean as individuals we will have to live with having tried to prevent genocide, or having excused it. I can live with the choices I am making.
A few more pro-Gaza people feeling alienated enough to stay home plus a few more pro-Israel people choosing to vote R or stay home, could, in theory, help tip a close election.
Genocide isn't a wedge issue. This isn't a dress rehearsal. The point of having political power is to use it. I can't think of a better possible use than preventing genocide. If your political coalition demands you commit genocide, you either reject that coalition, or you are judged one of the participants in genocide. You can't point to Israel or AIPAC and say they made you do it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:55 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
But nothing he did or did not do absolves Biden and Netanyahu for the genocide in Gaza. Anymore than Hitler makes Stalin the "good guy". But I am not talking about nations. I mean as individuals we will have to live with having tried to prevent genocide, or having excused it. I can live with the choices I am making.
A few more pro-Gaza people feeling alienated enough to stay home plus a few more pro-Israel people choosing to vote R or stay home, could, in theory, help tip a close election.
Genocide isn't a wedge issue. This isn't a dress rehearsal. The point of having political power is to use it. I can't think of a better possible use than preventing genocide. If your political coalition demands you commit genocide, you either reject that coalition, or you are judged one of the participants in genocide. You can't point to Israel or AIPAC and say they made you do it.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:55 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
When the blood of Palestine cries out to accuse us, I don't think "it was an election year" will be adequate defense.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:05 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:05 AM on April 4 [7 favorites]
Genocide isn't a wedge issue. This isn't a dress rehearsal. The point of having political power is to use it. I can't think of a better possible use than preventing genocide. If your political coalition demands you commit genocide, you either reject that coalition, or you are judged one of the participants in genocide. You can't point to Israel or AIPAC and say they made you do it.
I hate to break it to you, but genocide is absolutely a wedge issue and you can already see Trump experimenting with how to approach it in a way that can peel off some of Biden's coalition. You can say it shouldn't be used that way and I'll agree, but it is, as we speak. I'm not saying Biden is doing it all right (he isn't, at all), just that this isn't ever going to play out like the activists want because of electoral realities. Trump is going to figure out his messaging on this sooner or later and it will be interesting to see where he lands, but for him it's just messaging and in reality he and his base are 100% behind brown people getting killed, especially if it seems like it will move the End Times along towards the True Believers being brought into heaven or whatever it is that gets them all turned on.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:35 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I hate to break it to you, but genocide is absolutely a wedge issue and you can already see Trump experimenting with how to approach it in a way that can peel off some of Biden's coalition. You can say it shouldn't be used that way and I'll agree, but it is, as we speak. I'm not saying Biden is doing it all right (he isn't, at all), just that this isn't ever going to play out like the activists want because of electoral realities. Trump is going to figure out his messaging on this sooner or later and it will be interesting to see where he lands, but for him it's just messaging and in reality he and his base are 100% behind brown people getting killed, especially if it seems like it will move the End Times along towards the True Believers being brought into heaven or whatever it is that gets them all turned on.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:35 AM on April 4 [2 favorites]
I hate to break it to you
This addition was unnecessary and I apologize; there's enough heat in the discussion already.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:00 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
This addition was unnecessary and I apologize; there's enough heat in the discussion already.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:00 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying Biden is doing it all right (he isn't, at all), just that this isn't ever going to play out like the activists want because of electoral realities.
I am not sure electoral realities are all there is to it. I think Biden is likely essentially ideologically on board with what is being done. He has taken unnecessary additional steps to support the continuation of the genocide when he could have simply done nothing. I can't know his heart, but his actions suggest something beyond mere calculation.
Also, if he is calculating, he has significantly erred. He is angering key demographics he needs in 2024.
But all of that is irrelevant. There is never a justification for genocide. There is never justification for creating famine. There cannot ever be any excuse for abetting these crimes. No electoral math can give anyone the right to do these things
If it impossible to win a US election without participating in genocide, then the US needs to be regarded like Nazi Germany, the enemy of every decent human being. Voting is an insufficient response.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:25 PM on April 4 [7 favorites]
I am not sure electoral realities are all there is to it. I think Biden is likely essentially ideologically on board with what is being done. He has taken unnecessary additional steps to support the continuation of the genocide when he could have simply done nothing. I can't know his heart, but his actions suggest something beyond mere calculation.
Also, if he is calculating, he has significantly erred. He is angering key demographics he needs in 2024.
But all of that is irrelevant. There is never a justification for genocide. There is never justification for creating famine. There cannot ever be any excuse for abetting these crimes. No electoral math can give anyone the right to do these things
If it impossible to win a US election without participating in genocide, then the US needs to be regarded like Nazi Germany, the enemy of every decent human being. Voting is an insufficient response.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:25 PM on April 4 [7 favorites]
I also strongly disagree that Biden is primarily motivated by electoral realities. I think he's motivated by ideology and all evidence and reporting indicates that he feels a very strong personal commitment to Zionism and to Israel. If this is an electoral strategy, it's a catastrophically terrible one.
As someone who knows a lot of Gen Z folks, this is going to be one of the most significant political coming-of-age moments in many of their lives--and this is how they'll grow up understanding the Democratic party and its mainstream.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:34 PM on April 4 [8 favorites]
As someone who knows a lot of Gen Z folks, this is going to be one of the most significant political coming-of-age moments in many of their lives--and this is how they'll grow up understanding the Democratic party and its mainstream.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:34 PM on April 4 [8 favorites]
I think Biden's ideology is built on a lifetime of responding to those very electoral realities. That's why he's causing so much cognitive dissonance. Nothing he's doing makes sense, unless we understand him as trying to appeal to a (possibly imaginary) mainstream Democratic voter who has, maybe, humanitarian concerns about things happening elsewhere, but whose concerns can be quelled by promises of food aid and stern phone calls to Netanyahu. I think the most disheartening thing of all, seeing just how many people do care, deeply, about Palestine--and who maybe never really cared before, or weren't aware before--they are still vastly outnumbered by the voters who would like us to just put a big wall around Israel and let the two sides fight it out. They would like to get back to normal so much. They would like to stop hearing about the trouble, the dead and starving children.
Our problem isn't disinformation, it's our immunity to information. Nothing gets through. The pandemic didn't, Palestine won't, god only knows what the next huge crisis will be, and our response will be entirely about how to just get back to the way we were five minutes ago, before we knew what was happening.
Someone brought up the other day in one of these threads, I can't remember which one, that this isn't even the only genocide going on right now. And it's not even just genocide! God, when you think that we're still using slave labor for things--we haven't even solved the coltan problem for our cell phones! Corb's question about Omelas becomes unanswerable when there's an infinite population of children suffering so we can just feel normal.
Anyway. That's enough doom for one comment. I'm glad people care.
posted by mittens at 1:15 PM on April 4 [8 favorites]
Our problem isn't disinformation, it's our immunity to information. Nothing gets through. The pandemic didn't, Palestine won't, god only knows what the next huge crisis will be, and our response will be entirely about how to just get back to the way we were five minutes ago, before we knew what was happening.
Someone brought up the other day in one of these threads, I can't remember which one, that this isn't even the only genocide going on right now. And it's not even just genocide! God, when you think that we're still using slave labor for things--we haven't even solved the coltan problem for our cell phones! Corb's question about Omelas becomes unanswerable when there's an infinite population of children suffering so we can just feel normal.
Anyway. That's enough doom for one comment. I'm glad people care.
posted by mittens at 1:15 PM on April 4 [8 favorites]
Our problem isn't disinformation, it's our immunity to information. Nothing gets through. The pandemic didn't, Palestine won't, god only knows what the next huge crisis will be, and our response will be entirely about how to just get back to the way we were five minutes ago, before we knew what was happening.
Over at the Eurovision thread, Kutsuwamushi pointed out the extreme dehumanisation Palestinians have been dished out to which goes hand-in-hand with how deeply embedded Israel is in the international arena and how it's treated as part of the West culturally. We are going to encounter this expression of immunity more and more especially as it's no longer considered verboten to bring up in "polite" company. I've not thought to phrase it that way but the mention of the pandemic reminded me of how I've always understood it as the fact that there is a certain mental paradigm that made diseases as not being a foreign problem to read about and an ally being a human rights abuser that makes people would rather consider just about anything else.
God knows it's not a western problem, but a specific western facet seems to hinge on the fantasy that such stubbornness to facts is a resolved cultural condition which ALWAYS makes the disrupting message to be at fault rather than an opportunity to review your priors. At least in other political cultural groups, it's a lot more personally apparent how much that stubbornness is tribalism and aggrievement that they have to conduct themselves to some other set of standards so you're more likely to find people who will straddle the contradictions, not to be better moral actors but at least they're not in denial why they just will not agree.
posted by cendawanita at 3:31 PM on April 4 [6 favorites]
Over at the Eurovision thread, Kutsuwamushi pointed out the extreme dehumanisation Palestinians have been dished out to which goes hand-in-hand with how deeply embedded Israel is in the international arena and how it's treated as part of the West culturally. We are going to encounter this expression of immunity more and more especially as it's no longer considered verboten to bring up in "polite" company. I've not thought to phrase it that way but the mention of the pandemic reminded me of how I've always understood it as the fact that there is a certain mental paradigm that made diseases as not being a foreign problem to read about and an ally being a human rights abuser that makes people would rather consider just about anything else.
God knows it's not a western problem, but a specific western facet seems to hinge on the fantasy that such stubbornness to facts is a resolved cultural condition which ALWAYS makes the disrupting message to be at fault rather than an opportunity to review your priors. At least in other political cultural groups, it's a lot more personally apparent how much that stubbornness is tribalism and aggrievement that they have to conduct themselves to some other set of standards so you're more likely to find people who will straddle the contradictions, not to be better moral actors but at least they're not in denial why they just will not agree.
posted by cendawanita at 3:31 PM on April 4 [6 favorites]
If it impossible to win a US election without participating in genocide, then the US needs to be regarded like Nazi Germany, the enemy of every decent human being. Voting is an insufficient response.
This is where I'm at.
Look, I can't tell you how bad the Iraq War was, and the fact that what Israel is doing to Gaza is horrifying Iraq War veterans to the point that nobody can sleep at night should give at least some people fucking pause?
When I was a kid growing up in NYC there were still people's grandparents with numbers on their arms, and we all made our moral compass by asking each other 'what would you do if there was a genocide happening?' And maybe I'm failing this test because I'm not personally flying to Gaza with a fucking rifle and I stopped like three vets I know from doing it because I was pretty sure Mossad would pull their fingernails out before they even got to the border, but I'm still sure as fuck not going to fucking participate in it and be part of the cheering goddamned crowd.
posted by corb at 6:58 PM on April 4 [8 favorites]
This is where I'm at.
Look, I can't tell you how bad the Iraq War was, and the fact that what Israel is doing to Gaza is horrifying Iraq War veterans to the point that nobody can sleep at night should give at least some people fucking pause?
When I was a kid growing up in NYC there were still people's grandparents with numbers on their arms, and we all made our moral compass by asking each other 'what would you do if there was a genocide happening?' And maybe I'm failing this test because I'm not personally flying to Gaza with a fucking rifle and I stopped like three vets I know from doing it because I was pretty sure Mossad would pull their fingernails out before they even got to the border, but I'm still sure as fuck not going to fucking participate in it and be part of the cheering goddamned crowd.
posted by corb at 6:58 PM on April 4 [8 favorites]
I would like to make an extremely pedantic correction to my comment above, because i do not in fact like to spread misinformation even by accident. Rather than "Benny Gantz", it should read "Itamar Ben-Gvir"—i had misremembered which Israeli minister was convicted on terrorism charges.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:42 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:42 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Also, speaking of propaganda and disinformation, i just resurfaced this great post by Adam Johnson from last month:
For the Biden Campaign, Gaza Is a PR Annoyance to Manage, Not a Genocide to End
For the Biden Campaign, Gaza Is a PR Annoyance to Manage, Not a Genocide to End
As a professional media critic I am, of course, incentivized to say everything is a P.R. war. But this conflict is different from others in that virtually every conspicuous public action and public use of language the US engages in is motivated entirely by duping conflicted liberals. It’s not that the White House and partisan media is simply focusing on P.R. as a subset of larger policy aims or messaging narrative—the P.R. has become the policy aim. The P.R. is everything. The hollowed out men and women milling about the corridors of the White House and State Department no longer even maintain the pretense of a broader moral narrative, or a greater good. Perception has become the North Star, indeed the only star left in the sky. Nihilism reigns as never before. From the White House press room to USAID statements to partisan media organs to bought-and-paid-for TikTok influencers, every decision over the past few months—and, indeed, likely the next few months—is entirely about thinking of the headline, or the CNN chyron, and reverse-engineering messaging around that.posted by adrienneleigh at 8:09 PM on April 4 [6 favorites]
The most recent and nakedly cynical example, as I detailed in The Nation yesterday, is the White House’s rhetorical shift in nominally supporting a “ceasefire” over the past couple of weeks. The Biden administration assumed, correctly it turns out, that most people will be confused and see this as a concession or a “step in the right direction,” rather than what it: a co-option of the term. So the White House went from banning low-level staff from using the c-word to embracing it, hoping no one would notice that their definition of a “ceasefire” was just a temporary pause for hostage exchanges followed by an explicit endorsement of Israel continuing to bomb and siege Gaza indefinitely. This, as I laid out, was a largely successful gambit—in that many otherwise smart people fell for it, and it generated dozens of favorable headlines.
Don't blame me, I'm just the guy sharing links:
(Current Affairs) Israel’s Propaganda Machine is Filling the Internet with Misinformation
So far, the Washington Post is one of the only prominent news outlets to touch this subject. In an eye-opening January 25 article for the paper, Taylor Lorenz describes a variety of websites and apps that “help automate pro-Israel activism online.” As it turns out, this is an understatement. One website uncovered by Lorenz, called “Project T.R.U.T.H.,” claims to generate AI “fact check” responses to posts about Israel, ready-made for the user to copy and paste online. (The acronym stands for “Timely Responses for Unbiased Transparency and Honesty.”) Two others are called “Moovers” and “Words of Iron.” On these sites, users are not only supplied with pro-Israel content to post, but encouraged to report as “hate speech” designated posts that criticize Israel or express sympathy for Palestinians. When I first read it back in January, I found Lorenz’s article incredibly disturbing. So I decided to visit a few of these websites and see for myself how they operate. What I found only increased my alarm.
(...) Let’s return, for a moment, to Noam Chomsky. One of his great lessons is that moral and political standards must be applied consistently. If we condemn an action committed by our official enemies—whether it’s terrorism, torture, or the use of propaganda and misinformation—then we must condemn that action in all cases. When we encounter a conflict or controversy in international affairs, we should ask how it would look if the roles were reversed, or if the same actions were taken by some other party. In the case of the pro-Israel propaganda machine, the double standard at work couldn’t be more obvious. Ever since Hillary Clinton’s electoral defeat in 2016, U.S. politicians and media figures have been screaming to the heavens about the threat of misinformation on the internet. National publications like Foreign Policy run hysterical headlines like “The West Is Still Oblivious to Russia’s Information War,” and the Biden administration even had a short-lived “Disinformation Governance Board” to counter the supposed menace. Even the possibility of Chinese disinformation campaigns has been enough to rush a TikTok ban through the House of Representatives, despite there being little or no evidence that such campaigns actually exist. But there’s plenty of evidence that supporters of Israel and its assault on Gaza are spreading misinformation and manipulating online platforms that millions of people use, and nobody in power seems to care. If supporters of Cuba or North Korea started a website like Words of Iron, members of Congress would be falling over each other to denounce it and demand it be banned. But apparently, Israel gets a pass. If our leaders actually cared about the integrity of the internet and the information the public consumes, their response to these sites would be very different. Until something changes, we can only conclude their rhetoric about misinformation is exactly that: empty rhetoric.
posted by cendawanita at 11:58 PM on April 4 [5 favorites]
(Current Affairs) Israel’s Propaganda Machine is Filling the Internet with Misinformation
So far, the Washington Post is one of the only prominent news outlets to touch this subject. In an eye-opening January 25 article for the paper, Taylor Lorenz describes a variety of websites and apps that “help automate pro-Israel activism online.” As it turns out, this is an understatement. One website uncovered by Lorenz, called “Project T.R.U.T.H.,” claims to generate AI “fact check” responses to posts about Israel, ready-made for the user to copy and paste online. (The acronym stands for “Timely Responses for Unbiased Transparency and Honesty.”) Two others are called “Moovers” and “Words of Iron.” On these sites, users are not only supplied with pro-Israel content to post, but encouraged to report as “hate speech” designated posts that criticize Israel or express sympathy for Palestinians. When I first read it back in January, I found Lorenz’s article incredibly disturbing. So I decided to visit a few of these websites and see for myself how they operate. What I found only increased my alarm.
(...) Let’s return, for a moment, to Noam Chomsky. One of his great lessons is that moral and political standards must be applied consistently. If we condemn an action committed by our official enemies—whether it’s terrorism, torture, or the use of propaganda and misinformation—then we must condemn that action in all cases. When we encounter a conflict or controversy in international affairs, we should ask how it would look if the roles were reversed, or if the same actions were taken by some other party. In the case of the pro-Israel propaganda machine, the double standard at work couldn’t be more obvious. Ever since Hillary Clinton’s electoral defeat in 2016, U.S. politicians and media figures have been screaming to the heavens about the threat of misinformation on the internet. National publications like Foreign Policy run hysterical headlines like “The West Is Still Oblivious to Russia’s Information War,” and the Biden administration even had a short-lived “Disinformation Governance Board” to counter the supposed menace. Even the possibility of Chinese disinformation campaigns has been enough to rush a TikTok ban through the House of Representatives, despite there being little or no evidence that such campaigns actually exist. But there’s plenty of evidence that supporters of Israel and its assault on Gaza are spreading misinformation and manipulating online platforms that millions of people use, and nobody in power seems to care. If supporters of Cuba or North Korea started a website like Words of Iron, members of Congress would be falling over each other to denounce it and demand it be banned. But apparently, Israel gets a pass. If our leaders actually cared about the integrity of the internet and the information the public consumes, their response to these sites would be very different. Until something changes, we can only conclude their rhetoric about misinformation is exactly that: empty rhetoric.
posted by cendawanita at 11:58 PM on April 4 [5 favorites]
National publications like Foreign Policy run hysterical headlines like “The West Is Still Oblivious to Russia’s Information War,” and the Biden administration even had a short-lived “Disinformation Governance Board” to counter the supposed menace.
This, to me, is the core sticking point that is the source of a lot of what is perplexing in this thread and causes much misunderstanding. Not blaming you, cendawanita, thank you for sharing the link!
Understanding that Russian disinfo did not cause or create anger for the atrocities happening in Gaza now, what is the basis for refusing that Russian disinfo campaigns exist, in general?
There have been countless examples of paid politicians and news media agents working for the Kremlin, some of which even admitted to doing so. Off the top of my head, Germany's well positioned "top Russia expert" who was interviewed on public television on many occasions for years admitted to receiving 600,000 Euro from Russia, which he kept secret until he was finally exposed recently. These are people shaping public opinion, and there are other corruption scandals relating to disinformation campaigns happening in real time, in Europe and elsewhere.
Even if one argues that one is impervious to disinformation, it doesn't mean it doesn't influence others, or that the perpetrators aren't trying their best to do so.
The flaw in the reasoning of the article seems very blatant to me: the author wants me to 'apply moral and political standards consistently' — I should take Israeli and US disinformation seriously. And yet, Russian propaganda is a “supposed menace” and talking about it is being “hysterical.” That does not seem consistent to me at all.
posted by UN at 1:46 AM on April 5
This, to me, is the core sticking point that is the source of a lot of what is perplexing in this thread and causes much misunderstanding. Not blaming you, cendawanita, thank you for sharing the link!
Understanding that Russian disinfo did not cause or create anger for the atrocities happening in Gaza now, what is the basis for refusing that Russian disinfo campaigns exist, in general?
There have been countless examples of paid politicians and news media agents working for the Kremlin, some of which even admitted to doing so. Off the top of my head, Germany's well positioned "top Russia expert" who was interviewed on public television on many occasions for years admitted to receiving 600,000 Euro from Russia, which he kept secret until he was finally exposed recently. These are people shaping public opinion, and there are other corruption scandals relating to disinformation campaigns happening in real time, in Europe and elsewhere.
Even if one argues that one is impervious to disinformation, it doesn't mean it doesn't influence others, or that the perpetrators aren't trying their best to do so.
The flaw in the reasoning of the article seems very blatant to me: the author wants me to 'apply moral and political standards consistently' — I should take Israeli and US disinformation seriously. And yet, Russian propaganda is a “supposed menace” and talking about it is being “hysterical.” That does not seem consistent to me at all.
posted by UN at 1:46 AM on April 5
Cendawanita, would it be possible for you to post the Project T.R.U.T.H. article in this thread? I don't want to just copy your comment, but I think this thread really deserves it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:00 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:00 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Oh, I see, you have but without the excerpt. I will add that then, because I think its really very important for those who won't click through.
I devised a simple test: give the site a statement that is straightforwardly true but reflects badly on Israel, and see what it says. This is the prompt I used:
Benjamin Netanyahu has referred to Palestinians as “Amalek,” a reference to a Biblical nation that was exterminated in an act of genocide.
For the record, it’s undisputed that Netanyahu said this, and his inflammatory statement was widely reported in both the Israeli press and internationally. But when I asked Project T.R.U.T.H. to weigh in, I got the following response:
Netanyahu never called Palestinians “Amalek”. Spreading lies won’t change facts. Israel wants peace, repeatedly offering compromises. Focus on Hamas’s recent massacre of Israelis instead of distorting reality. #Truth #IsraelUnderFire #StandWithIsrael
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:01 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
I devised a simple test: give the site a statement that is straightforwardly true but reflects badly on Israel, and see what it says. This is the prompt I used:
Benjamin Netanyahu has referred to Palestinians as “Amalek,” a reference to a Biblical nation that was exterminated in an act of genocide.
For the record, it’s undisputed that Netanyahu said this, and his inflammatory statement was widely reported in both the Israeli press and internationally. But when I asked Project T.R.U.T.H. to weigh in, I got the following response:
Netanyahu never called Palestinians “Amalek”. Spreading lies won’t change facts. Israel wants peace, repeatedly offering compromises. Focus on Hamas’s recent massacre of Israelis instead of distorting reality. #Truth #IsraelUnderFire #StandWithIsrael
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:01 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
UN: i think we should take Russian disinformation and propaganda as seriously as any other nation-state's disinformation and propaganda, but you still have to actually point to it happening. Like, if there's no action items, what is it we're supposed to "take seriously"?
I can certainly point to lots of Russian bullshit on the net, and a lot of it is spread by bot/troll farms. Fairly far upthread i mentioned seeing a LOT of bot/troll activity on social media related to the concert bombing last week. (By and large the obvious Russian operations i see are a lot less polished than Israeli hasbara, fwiw. Of course i can't falsify the idea that the more polished ones are escaping my notice as being propaganda!)
But if you, like OP, actually want to make the case that Russia is amplifying bad information about the US-backed, Israeli-perpertrated genocide of Palestinians in order to "amplify tension" or "be divisive" or whatever, you have to be able to, at minimum, show which information is bad.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:07 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
I can certainly point to lots of Russian bullshit on the net, and a lot of it is spread by bot/troll farms. Fairly far upthread i mentioned seeing a LOT of bot/troll activity on social media related to the concert bombing last week. (By and large the obvious Russian operations i see are a lot less polished than Israeli hasbara, fwiw. Of course i can't falsify the idea that the more polished ones are escaping my notice as being propaganda!)
But if you, like OP, actually want to make the case that Russia is amplifying bad information about the US-backed, Israeli-perpertrated genocide of Palestinians in order to "amplify tension" or "be divisive" or whatever, you have to be able to, at minimum, show which information is bad.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:07 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
U.N. - I'm working from the position that no-one I know or value believes much of anything they can identify as Russian in origin, whereas there are plenty of people I would otherwise respect who repeat Israeli talking points regularly.
So to me, one *is* a supposed menace people are being hysterical about, and one is a real issue that is misleading people in my daily life.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:35 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
So to me, one *is* a supposed menace people are being hysterical about, and one is a real issue that is misleading people in my daily life.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:35 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
I have a bit about a fake Russian fiance I used to use regularly, but I've had to stop using it as much since the hot war in Ukraine, because it's not good for the comedy to have to add in to the backstory that the fake fiance definitely isn't a Putin fan and my audience isn't supposed to have negative views of them just for being Russian.
I don't think there's any comparable response to "Israeli" as an identity for most people, as their propaganda said, its just a nice "Western" place you could go for a holiday, although we'll see whether the murder of an aid worker shifts the dial on that at all.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:44 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
I don't think there's any comparable response to "Israeli" as an identity for most people, as their propaganda said, its just a nice "Western" place you could go for a holiday, although we'll see whether the murder of an aid worker shifts the dial on that at all.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:44 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
UN: i think we should take Russian disinformation and propaganda as seriously as any other nation-state's disinformation and propaganda, but you still have to actually point to it happening. Like, if there's no action items, what is it we're supposed to "take seriously"?
There are a number of active disinformation campaigns exploiting the war in Gaza used by the Kremlin to push their own goals.
posted by UN at 3:46 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
There are a number of active disinformation campaigns exploiting the war in Gaza used by the Kremlin to push their own goals.
posted by UN at 3:46 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
But there is a common theme: the suggestion that the financial support coming from Western powers has been diverted from Ukraine to Israel. And that Ukraine will soon lose all military and financial support from the West.
Wait, am I going mad, or hasn't a common theme in this very thread, repeated by the people most concerned about Russian propaganda, been that an excess of Palestinian empathy risks undermining support for Ukraine?
Also, Macron, in my eyes, while better later, *does* have Palestinian blood on his hands, albeit relatively little for a European leader.
October 12,
Macron said in an address to the nation that Israel had the right to defend itself "by eliminating terrorist groups, including Hamas, with targeted actions but preserving the civilian population"," adding that the "only response to terrorism is one that is... strong but fair."
Given that it was obvious to any observer that Israel was going to respond with disproportionate and genocidal violence, this statement was clearly recklessly disregarding the value of Palestinian lives. Israel was already well into their "AI"-excused civilian bombing campaign.
"Israel has the right to defend itself", will, at least for me, probably go down as the defining statement on the genocide for a lot of leaders. They knew full well Israel wasn't going to just defend themselves, the genocidal rhetoric was in full swing.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:07 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
Wait, am I going mad, or hasn't a common theme in this very thread, repeated by the people most concerned about Russian propaganda, been that an excess of Palestinian empathy risks undermining support for Ukraine?
Also, Macron, in my eyes, while better later, *does* have Palestinian blood on his hands, albeit relatively little for a European leader.
October 12,
Macron said in an address to the nation that Israel had the right to defend itself "by eliminating terrorist groups, including Hamas, with targeted actions but preserving the civilian population"," adding that the "only response to terrorism is one that is... strong but fair."
Given that it was obvious to any observer that Israel was going to respond with disproportionate and genocidal violence, this statement was clearly recklessly disregarding the value of Palestinian lives. Israel was already well into their "AI"-excused civilian bombing campaign.
"Israel has the right to defend itself", will, at least for me, probably go down as the defining statement on the genocide for a lot of leaders. They knew full well Israel wasn't going to just defend themselves, the genocidal rhetoric was in full swing.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:07 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
Also given that "eliminating" Hamas through violence has always been impossible, has included the idea that the Gazan Ministry of Health are all "Hamas operatives", down to the most junior nurse.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:09 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:09 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
So...
UN: There are a number of active disinformation campaigns exploiting the war in Gaza used by the Kremlin to push their own goals.
Audreynachrome: (quoting the linked article) But there is a common theme: the suggestion that the financial support coming from Western powers has been diverted from Ukraine to Israel. And that Ukraine will soon lose all military and financial support from the West.
Audreynachrome: Wait, am I going mad, or hasn't a common theme in this very thread, repeated by the people most concerned about Russian propaganda, been that an excess of Palestinian empathy risks undermining support for Ukraine?
*Checks FPP*
*Scans comments*
Anyone else feeling like they're in the middle of a Benoit Blanc moment?
posted by cendawanita at 5:04 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
UN: There are a number of active disinformation campaigns exploiting the war in Gaza used by the Kremlin to push their own goals.
Audreynachrome: (quoting the linked article) But there is a common theme: the suggestion that the financial support coming from Western powers has been diverted from Ukraine to Israel. And that Ukraine will soon lose all military and financial support from the West.
Audreynachrome: Wait, am I going mad, or hasn't a common theme in this very thread, repeated by the people most concerned about Russian propaganda, been that an excess of Palestinian empathy risks undermining support for Ukraine?
*Checks FPP*
*Scans comments*
Anyone else feeling like they're in the middle of a Benoit Blanc moment?
posted by cendawanita at 5:04 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
It is very personally embarassing to have underestimated the power of Russian propaganda so severely.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:43 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:43 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
I mean, more directly, speaking only for me, that's why---
what is the basis for refusing that Russian disinfo campaigns exist, in general?
-- is never a claim I made, and what I contended was that the claimed direction of influence doesn't make sense (both in terms of Russian ops are very for-hire -- my own country hire Russians; Palestinians, famously a dispossessed people tho now I'm waiting for a gotcha by linking to the Hadids' net worth or something -- as well as they don't fuck/get with islamic-based movements on a sympathetic basis + there is more societal links at population level with the mainstream Russian society ie not separatist/dissident and Israel) and in fact that article actually explained why the pro-Ukrainian accounts (eg Visegrad24) I noted on my algos suddenly changed tack post-October 2023.
posted by cendawanita at 6:04 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
what is the basis for refusing that Russian disinfo campaigns exist, in general?
-- is never a claim I made, and what I contended was that the claimed direction of influence doesn't make sense (both in terms of Russian ops are very for-hire -- my own country hire Russians; Palestinians, famously a dispossessed people tho now I'm waiting for a gotcha by linking to the Hadids' net worth or something -- as well as they don't fuck/get with islamic-based movements on a sympathetic basis + there is more societal links at population level with the mainstream Russian society ie not separatist/dissident and Israel) and in fact that article actually explained why the pro-Ukrainian accounts (eg Visegrad24) I noted on my algos suddenly changed tack post-October 2023.
posted by cendawanita at 6:04 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
I feel like such a dupe, I fell for the assumption that in anglosphere minds, Russia=bad and Palestine=bad and therefore Russian propaganda must necessarily be on some level "pro-Palestine" in nature.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:21 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:21 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
It's okay, that's definitely what the FPP is arguing. Just following the terms of engagement.
posted by cendawanita at 6:27 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:27 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
I feel like such a dupe, I fell for the assumption that in anglosphere minds, Russia=bad and Palestine=bad and therefore Russian propaganda must necessarily be on some level "pro-Palestine" in nature.
I would say that Russian policy is currently strongly pro-Iran and also somewhat anti-semitic, so therefore Russian policy is very mildly pro-Palestinian not because of any particular feelings towards the Palestinians, but because of their place in the broader geo-social conflicts of the region. (There's also the long history of how the PLO and others were trained, housed, and armed 50+ years ago, and Russia's role in that time, that sort of shapes things in the background.)
But that doesn't mean that Russian propaganda is going to be simplistically pro-Palestine. Most likely, in my opinion, to the extent that Russia is engaged in disinformation, it is on the same model as they did during BLM protests here, where they tried to amplify feelings on both sides, rather than promoting one side over the other.
And, as pointed out in numerous comments here including just above, the Russians are far from the only party engaged in disinformation-type work around Gaza. It's a crowded information space for sure.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
I would say that Russian policy is currently strongly pro-Iran and also somewhat anti-semitic, so therefore Russian policy is very mildly pro-Palestinian not because of any particular feelings towards the Palestinians, but because of their place in the broader geo-social conflicts of the region. (There's also the long history of how the PLO and others were trained, housed, and armed 50+ years ago, and Russia's role in that time, that sort of shapes things in the background.)
But that doesn't mean that Russian propaganda is going to be simplistically pro-Palestine. Most likely, in my opinion, to the extent that Russia is engaged in disinformation, it is on the same model as they did during BLM protests here, where they tried to amplify feelings on both sides, rather than promoting one side over the other.
And, as pointed out in numerous comments here including just above, the Russians are far from the only party engaged in disinformation-type work around Gaza. It's a crowded information space for sure.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
I had never considered the idea that there is plenty of outrage at what's happening in Gaza, and there was a prime opportunity to create a divide between more left-wing people upset about genocide and the people they usually hope to strategically ally with by influencing more liberal and mainstream people to support, deny or ignore the genocide.
People who believe that a genocide is taking place are unlikely to be shaken in that belief. What is movable are people whose primary objectives are defined by polls and vibes and electoral fears.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:10 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
People who believe that a genocide is taking place are unlikely to be shaken in that belief. What is movable are people whose primary objectives are defined by polls and vibes and electoral fears.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:10 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
anglosphere minds
I believe this is a reference to my post; I linked articles from Czech and French media, and further up in German as well. While those are nonetheless Eurocentric, still, I'm personally not from the anglosphere, neither born there nor do I live in an anglosphere country. I speak one very non-Euro language as well and am familiar with perspectives outside of that realm....to frame my comments as "anglo mind", well it's simply wrong. We're all writing in English here, so we're all somewhat guilty maybe?
But I feel like I shouldn't have to defend who I am, right? I'm not the OP nor did I make the FPP, so, I don't think I deserve the glib responses in either case.
I gave an example of a disinfo campaign and the response is "well, anglosphere". But...what about the content?
posted by UN at 7:50 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I believe this is a reference to my post; I linked articles from Czech and French media, and further up in German as well. While those are nonetheless Eurocentric, still, I'm personally not from the anglosphere, neither born there nor do I live in an anglosphere country. I speak one very non-Euro language as well and am familiar with perspectives outside of that realm....to frame my comments as "anglo mind", well it's simply wrong. We're all writing in English here, so we're all somewhat guilty maybe?
But I feel like I shouldn't have to defend who I am, right? I'm not the OP nor did I make the FPP, so, I don't think I deserve the glib responses in either case.
I gave an example of a disinfo campaign and the response is "well, anglosphere". But...what about the content?
posted by UN at 7:50 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I feel like such a dupe, I fell for the assumption that in anglosphere minds, Russia=bad and Palestine=bad and therefore Russian propaganda must necessarily be on some level "pro-Palestine" in nature.
One of the initial claima of likely Russian propaganda was the false report that Ukraine sent weapons to arm Hamas.
posted by UN at 8:00 AM on April 5
One of the initial claima of likely Russian propaganda was the false report that Ukraine sent weapons to arm Hamas.
posted by UN at 8:00 AM on April 5
What about the content? Revelatory. The idea that people are only upset about Gaza because of Russia is dumb and insanely partisan.
The idea that Russia *wants* people to equivocate and fight about it, wants to make sure American liberals utterly and completely forsake their moral principles to value white Ukrainians over Palestinian lives and split any possible coalition against Trump by forcing support for genocide?
Morbidly fascinating and kinda smart.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:22 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
The idea that Russia *wants* people to equivocate and fight about it, wants to make sure American liberals utterly and completely forsake their moral principles to value white Ukrainians over Palestinian lives and split any possible coalition against Trump by forcing support for genocide?
Morbidly fascinating and kinda smart.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:22 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
U.N. - I'm working from the position that no-one I know or value believes much of anything they can identify as Russian in origin, whereas there are plenty of people I would otherwise respect who repeat Israeli talking points regularly.
Yeah, this is also why all of this heat and attention around Russian disinformation bothers me, when the incredibly sophisticated and pervasive Israeli hasbara machine doesn't tend to be painted with such a sinister brush by the same people.
And that bothers me because I fucking see it everywhere! As someone who follows a bunch of celebrities on Instagram, you read the comments for any post on Israel or Palestine and it's a bunch of obvious bots. I read Reddit regularly and though it's no longer so bad as it was, R/worldnews, a hugely, hugely influential and massive subreddit was banning anyone who posted fairly mild pro-Palestinian perspectives and deleting comments that were anti-Zionist as hate speech in October and November. For God's sake, this site used to ban discussions of Israel and Palestine because it was "too complicated," which is fully a product of hasbara bullshit.
I've grown up with such an insane degree of misinformation around Palestine and Palestinians. It's really what has honed my media literacy more than anything else. If I wasn't from a formerly colonized non-Western country, I'm pretty sure I would have fallen for it. And yet I rarely see Israeli misinformation efforts, which are so insanely pervasive and have completely framed the terms of the conflict in America and most Western countries, get the level of analysis and unmasking that they merit.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:28 AM on April 5 [10 favorites]
Yeah, this is also why all of this heat and attention around Russian disinformation bothers me, when the incredibly sophisticated and pervasive Israeli hasbara machine doesn't tend to be painted with such a sinister brush by the same people.
And that bothers me because I fucking see it everywhere! As someone who follows a bunch of celebrities on Instagram, you read the comments for any post on Israel or Palestine and it's a bunch of obvious bots. I read Reddit regularly and though it's no longer so bad as it was, R/worldnews, a hugely, hugely influential and massive subreddit was banning anyone who posted fairly mild pro-Palestinian perspectives and deleting comments that were anti-Zionist as hate speech in October and November. For God's sake, this site used to ban discussions of Israel and Palestine because it was "too complicated," which is fully a product of hasbara bullshit.
I've grown up with such an insane degree of misinformation around Palestine and Palestinians. It's really what has honed my media literacy more than anything else. If I wasn't from a formerly colonized non-Western country, I'm pretty sure I would have fallen for it. And yet I rarely see Israeli misinformation efforts, which are so insanely pervasive and have completely framed the terms of the conflict in America and most Western countries, get the level of analysis and unmasking that they merit.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:28 AM on April 5 [10 favorites]
what is the basis for refusing that Russian disinfo campaigns exist, in general
So no one is claiming that Russian disinformation claims don't exist. But what some people are saying is that disinformation is a highly technical word, and it doesn't mean what is being claimed here.
Disinformation, by definition, is a deliberate lie with the intent to deceive. You cannot put out disinformation about the truth. It could be propaganda to put out the truth, but it cannot be disinformation.
Two closely similar words are malinformation and misinformation - misinformation is wrong, but not intentional, whereas malinformation may be true, but is used in a deceptive way.
When people are saying that Russia is putting out disinformation about Palestine, they are saying that what is being said about Palestine is a lie.
posted by corb at 11:46 AM on April 5 [7 favorites]
So no one is claiming that Russian disinformation claims don't exist. But what some people are saying is that disinformation is a highly technical word, and it doesn't mean what is being claimed here.
Disinformation, by definition, is a deliberate lie with the intent to deceive. You cannot put out disinformation about the truth. It could be propaganda to put out the truth, but it cannot be disinformation.
Two closely similar words are malinformation and misinformation - misinformation is wrong, but not intentional, whereas malinformation may be true, but is used in a deceptive way.
When people are saying that Russia is putting out disinformation about Palestine, they are saying that what is being said about Palestine is a lie.
posted by corb at 11:46 AM on April 5 [7 favorites]
People certainly want the bombing on Gaza to stop and for humanitarian aid to be supplied.
The idea that it makes sense to pressure Biden so much as to risk a Trump victory might have something to do with Russian influence.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:13 PM on April 5
The idea that it makes sense to pressure Biden so much as to risk a Trump victory might have something to do with Russian influence.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:13 PM on April 5
Funny how it's always the people pressuring Biden not to be genocidal who are the ones needing these condescending lectures.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:22 PM on April 5 [11 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:22 PM on April 5 [11 favorites]
When people are saying that Russia is putting out disinformation about Palestine, they are saying that what is being said about Palestine is a lie.
This is, in fact, not what people are saying.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:48 PM on April 5
This is, in fact, not what people are saying.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:48 PM on April 5
The idea that it makes sense to pressure Biden so much as to risk a Trump victory might have something to do with Russian influence.
I think I see where you're going, the pressure that Biden is feeling is from his own people and from allies around the world that should be his number one focus and he is totally been blurred for that for months and that's on him and it will reflect on his foreign policy legacy that sounds kind of quaint...reflect on his foreign policy, he's going to get lambasted historically on this.
part of the disinformation is taking a truth and spinning it that reflects or rejects back on the media narrative.
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM on April 5
I think I see where you're going, the pressure that Biden is feeling is from his own people and from allies around the world that should be his number one focus and he is totally been blurred for that for months and that's on him and it will reflect on his foreign policy legacy that sounds kind of quaint...reflect on his foreign policy, he's going to get lambasted historically on this.
part of the disinformation is taking a truth and spinning it that reflects or rejects back on the media narrative.
posted by clavdivs at 1:53 PM on April 5
The idea that it makes sense to pressure Biden so much as to risk a Trump victory might have something to do with Russian influence.
Personally, I think he needs to be pressured and it is good that people are doing so. At least currently I don't think any of this is putting his reelection at risk since his opposition is so much worse and also the pressure is forcing him to shift, albeit extremely slowly, so there's ever reason to continue the pressure. If it crossed over into people actively supporting Trump, I'd question their intelligence for sure. There have been some overheated comments in previous threads here about that (that I was stupid enough to respond to, that was my bad), but in reality there just aren't many people who are genuinely that foolish.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:26 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Personally, I think he needs to be pressured and it is good that people are doing so. At least currently I don't think any of this is putting his reelection at risk since his opposition is so much worse and also the pressure is forcing him to shift, albeit extremely slowly, so there's ever reason to continue the pressure. If it crossed over into people actively supporting Trump, I'd question their intelligence for sure. There have been some overheated comments in previous threads here about that (that I was stupid enough to respond to, that was my bad), but in reality there just aren't many people who are genuinely that foolish.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:26 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I don't either, the noncommitted vote campaign has been one of the most effective Democratic choice I've seen in a while in this country. what makes it effective is that other people that aren't voting none committed are starting to freak out or worry rather that people will carry this into the general election but why would they if the pressure that they have mounted is having an effect I believe that's how democracy should work in a republic. it doesn't cover up the blunders that Biden has made but it could show a more healthy redirection and perhaps an eventual apology.
posted by clavdivs at 2:54 PM on April 5
posted by clavdivs at 2:54 PM on April 5
The idea that it makes sense to pressure Biden so much as to risk a Trump victory might have something to do with Russian influence.
The pressure being applied hasn't been sufficient to stop Biden from actively supporting genocide in Gaza.
The idea we should do less amounts to saying we should support this genocide, lest it hurt Joe Biden's electoral chances.
I am not willing to do that. I have no respect for anyone who believes we have the right to permit genocide to prevent bad PR for the president. This is the worst of atrocities. If we can only respond to that in terms of internal electoral politics, then we are completely morally bankrupt. Just MAGA with a different paint job.
If the concern is dividing the party, then I would suggest the establishment stop abetting genocide and the apologists join those protesting. Because no decent person is going to go the other way to save Biden from himself.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:13 PM on April 5 [10 favorites]
The pressure being applied hasn't been sufficient to stop Biden from actively supporting genocide in Gaza.
The idea we should do less amounts to saying we should support this genocide, lest it hurt Joe Biden's electoral chances.
I am not willing to do that. I have no respect for anyone who believes we have the right to permit genocide to prevent bad PR for the president. This is the worst of atrocities. If we can only respond to that in terms of internal electoral politics, then we are completely morally bankrupt. Just MAGA with a different paint job.
If the concern is dividing the party, then I would suggest the establishment stop abetting genocide and the apologists join those protesting. Because no decent person is going to go the other way to save Biden from himself.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:13 PM on April 5 [10 favorites]
Audreynachrome:
It is very personally embarassing to have underestimated the power of Russian propaganda so severely.
If by "power" you mean "actual changing of attitudes and/or fomenting of distrust", there's a lot of open questions about how effective any propaganda is at that. I linked a really good recent paper on it upthread.
Certainly Russian propaganda is very prevalent and often very obvious! Although, again, at least some of it is because their current propaganda strategy is very throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks, flood-the-zone action. The US, China, and Israel (to pick three other major powers under discussion in the thread) don't do any less of it, they just spend more money and do it more subtly.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:32 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
It is very personally embarassing to have underestimated the power of Russian propaganda so severely.
If by "power" you mean "actual changing of attitudes and/or fomenting of distrust", there's a lot of open questions about how effective any propaganda is at that. I linked a really good recent paper on it upthread.
Certainly Russian propaganda is very prevalent and often very obvious! Although, again, at least some of it is because their current propaganda strategy is very throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks, flood-the-zone action. The US, China, and Israel (to pick three other major powers under discussion in the thread) don't do any less of it, they just spend more money and do it more subtly.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:32 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
One thing in particular wrt Israel's genocide that i'm pretty sure i've seen Russian operations making a lot of hay out of, although it didn't originate with them, is the "Israel did 10/7" truther bullshit. The problem is that there is just enough truth in it—Israel was, in fact, responsible for many (although by no means most) of the Israeli casualties on 10/7—to make a particularly good conspiracy theory for those already susceptible.
And i don't think the Russians are the only ones making hay out of it, at all (i strongly suspect Israel of doing so, as well, for different purposes.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:35 PM on April 5 [4 favorites]
And i don't think the Russians are the only ones making hay out of it, at all (i strongly suspect Israel of doing so, as well, for different purposes.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:35 PM on April 5 [4 favorites]
The idea that it makes sense to pressure Biden so much as to risk a Trump victory might have something to do with Russian influence.
Might, might, might! Where is the evidence? I'm just so tired of people making unsupported claims and not producing a shred of evidence to substantiate them and then acting like I'm the one who needs a condescending lecture on media literacy.
And it hits harder because I literally know Palestinian organizers developing 'uncommitted' campaigns in my state and have connected with folks working on it nationally and the idea that they're so stupid as to be motivated by Russian influence, rather than, you know, watching their families die is so deeply insulting.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:06 AM on April 6 [11 favorites]
Might, might, might! Where is the evidence? I'm just so tired of people making unsupported claims and not producing a shred of evidence to substantiate them and then acting like I'm the one who needs a condescending lecture on media literacy.
And it hits harder because I literally know Palestinian organizers developing 'uncommitted' campaigns in my state and have connected with folks working on it nationally and the idea that they're so stupid as to be motivated by Russian influence, rather than, you know, watching their families die is so deeply insulting.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:06 AM on April 6 [11 favorites]
When people are saying that Russia is putting out disinformation about Palestine, they are saying that what is being said about Palestine is a lie.
This is an argument of convenience that smashes any idea one doesn't like. If every discussion were like this:
'My favorite color is red'
'You say red, but you mean blue.'
'I like to eat apples.'
' You say you like apples, but really you like oranges.'
And so on.
What's the point?
posted by UN at 2:59 AM on April 12 [3 favorites]
This is an argument of convenience that smashes any idea one doesn't like. If every discussion were like this:
'My favorite color is red'
'You say red, but you mean blue.'
'I like to eat apples.'
' You say you like apples, but really you like oranges.'
And so on.
What's the point?
posted by UN at 2:59 AM on April 12 [3 favorites]
This is an argument of convenience that smashes any idea one doesn't like. If every discussion were like this:
No, it is a logical consequence of the definition of "disinformation". If someone says reports about the genocide in Gaza are "Russian disinformation", then they are saying "these reports are Russian lies." If they are lies then they are, obviously, untrue.
Now reports might be true and still be presented as Russian propaganda, but there is no reason to think people angry about actual circumstances learned that information from Russian propaganda, and even if they did, it remains true, and worthy of outrage.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:36 PM on April 12 [7 favorites]
No, it is a logical consequence of the definition of "disinformation". If someone says reports about the genocide in Gaza are "Russian disinformation", then they are saying "these reports are Russian lies." If they are lies then they are, obviously, untrue.
Now reports might be true and still be presented as Russian propaganda, but there is no reason to think people angry about actual circumstances learned that information from Russian propaganda, and even if they did, it remains true, and worthy of outrage.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:36 PM on April 12 [7 favorites]
Sorry, you're saying we've "Drunk the Cool-aide [sic]"? Cool reference! Describe how we're part of a cult, which falsehoods we believe, and how they're leading to our mass suicide.
And maybe, if you're not going to do that, reflect on why you thought it was a good analogy? You keep on saying "I'm not saying you're Putin supporters", then coming right around and saying it anyway.
posted by sagc at 11:15 AM on April 14 [3 favorites]
And maybe, if you're not going to do that, reflect on why you thought it was a good analogy? You keep on saying "I'm not saying you're Putin supporters", then coming right around and saying it anyway.
posted by sagc at 11:15 AM on April 14 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Reminder that thread sitting is not allowed. Neither is the OP picking apart the points made by other posters of their own thread. Utilize the flag feature if something is against guidelines, otherwise please disengage.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 11:26 AM on April 14 [1 favorite]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 11:26 AM on April 14 [1 favorite]
The repeat “misunderstanding” of how Russian disinformation is defined or what Putin’s aims are is disingenuous. This is not good faith argumentation.
At this point, I'm willing to believe that it's not a misunderstanding for you, given that I've provided sources in this thread and you haven't, about why disinformation is specifically a different thing than malinformation or misinformation. The reason it's being repeated is because some posters are failing to acknowledge they have been corrected. However, on the off chance that people simply missed the links from the election protection resources, I'll also paste this in:
posted by corb at 11:27 AM on April 14 [5 favorites]
At this point, I'm willing to believe that it's not a misunderstanding for you, given that I've provided sources in this thread and you haven't, about why disinformation is specifically a different thing than malinformation or misinformation. The reason it's being repeated is because some posters are failing to acknowledge they have been corrected. However, on the off chance that people simply missed the links from the election protection resources, I'll also paste this in:
Mis-, dis-, and mal-information have become a pervasive threat to the election environment. Each has a specific definition. Together, we call them MDM.Providing new facts so that your opponent can educate themselves, in the assumption that they would change their mind if offered new facts, is the very definition of good faith argumentation. But the question of "How do we define disinformation" is absolutely relevant to the issue of Russian disinformation. And it's also worth noting that the article that started off the post is very clear that it is referring only to false, created stories - genuine disinformation.
Misinformation is inaccurate but not created or shared with the intention of causing harm.
Disinformation is false, and deliberately created to mislead, harm, or manipulate a person, social group, organization, or country.
Malinformation is based on fact, but intentionally used out of context to mislead, harm, or manipulate.
posted by corb at 11:27 AM on April 14 [5 favorites]
Google fired 28 workers who protested Israeli government cloud contract
posted by jeffburdges at 4:58 AM on April 18 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 4:58 AM on April 18 [1 favorite]
At this point, I'm fairly convinced the Biden administration, and Democrat foreign policy elites, think Russia does not represent a serious threat (to themselves).
1) Russian & Iranian oil were never sanctioned through recent years. Iran might face sanctions even on oil, but not Russia. Also Biden critisized Ukraine for attacking Russian refineries. We know multiple concerns apply here, but Russia could still export crude oil if Ukraine destroyed some of their refineries.
2) Biden & Democrats abandonded millitary aid to Ukraine, presumably because capitulating stores points against Republicans. It's fairly clear Democrats could've tied together millitary aid for Israel & Ukraine, increased aid to Israel contingent upon Israel aiding Ukraine, etc.
3) Israel has extensive political & media resources, which Ukraine largely lacks, but overall the "policy adults" have seemingly fallen in line behind Israel far more than they did behind Ukraine.
4) Ukraine has actual natural gas resources used by NATO members, unlike Israel. I suppose Biden prefers Europe buying American gas, but this still suggests how seriously they take Russia.
All sorts of 12 dimensional chess stories make sense too, like maybe they want Europe to pay for the Ukraine war, or maybe Ukraine is unwinnable, maybe American really needs Israel somehow, etc. It's more likely though that Russia remains only a secondary concern for the Biden administration and Democrat foreign policy elites.
All the above suggests that "Russia disinformation in the Israel-Gaza conflict" stories have the ultimate purpose of creating Israel support from rank-n-file Democrats dislike for Trump & Putin, with the ultimate aim of prioritizing millitary aid for Israel above Ukraine. It's interesting if Russia pursuaded Hamas into attacking Israel, but even if so they merely want a distraction, so these stories all play into their hand.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:40 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
1) Russian & Iranian oil were never sanctioned through recent years. Iran might face sanctions even on oil, but not Russia. Also Biden critisized Ukraine for attacking Russian refineries. We know multiple concerns apply here, but Russia could still export crude oil if Ukraine destroyed some of their refineries.
2) Biden & Democrats abandonded millitary aid to Ukraine, presumably because capitulating stores points against Republicans. It's fairly clear Democrats could've tied together millitary aid for Israel & Ukraine, increased aid to Israel contingent upon Israel aiding Ukraine, etc.
3) Israel has extensive political & media resources, which Ukraine largely lacks, but overall the "policy adults" have seemingly fallen in line behind Israel far more than they did behind Ukraine.
4) Ukraine has actual natural gas resources used by NATO members, unlike Israel. I suppose Biden prefers Europe buying American gas, but this still suggests how seriously they take Russia.
All sorts of 12 dimensional chess stories make sense too, like maybe they want Europe to pay for the Ukraine war, or maybe Ukraine is unwinnable, maybe American really needs Israel somehow, etc. It's more likely though that Russia remains only a secondary concern for the Biden administration and Democrat foreign policy elites.
All the above suggests that "Russia disinformation in the Israel-Gaza conflict" stories have the ultimate purpose of creating Israel support from rank-n-file Democrats dislike for Trump & Putin, with the ultimate aim of prioritizing millitary aid for Israel above Ukraine. It's interesting if Russia pursuaded Hamas into attacking Israel, but even if so they merely want a distraction, so these stories all play into their hand.
posted by jeffburdges at 5:40 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
Regarding your point 2, that's complicated by Republicans having control of the House, no?
posted by mittens at 5:43 AM on April 18
posted by mittens at 5:43 AM on April 18
Point #2 seems entirely disjointed from reality.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:44 AM on April 18 [3 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:44 AM on April 18 [3 favorites]
Point #2 seems entirely disjointed from reality.
That's the nuttiest one, but that whole post is disconnected from reality, including the conclusion.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:06 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
That's the nuttiest one, but that whole post is disconnected from reality, including the conclusion.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:06 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
No, I saw this documentary a while back where this dude was suffering under the baleful effects of misinformation and this geezer walked up and gently bopped him on the head with his walking stick and boom he was fine. Dunno why Biden keeps refusing to do this for the gopers. He's at least got golf clubs pretty sure they'd do in a pinch.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:11 AM on April 18
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:11 AM on April 18
I'd think 2 could work in many ways, including under the table moves like I mentioned, just depends how much Biden's administraiotion cares. Israel aid was their first priority, so they avoided risks there.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:28 AM on April 18
posted by jeffburdges at 6:28 AM on April 18
There is literally nothing that Biden or Democrats more broadly could offer that would get Trump or the hard core of magahat Republicans to approve aid to Ukraine.
They've been rejecting Israel+Ukraine for a long time now, because it would aid Ukraine. They've already rejected the Ukraine aid + rabid xenophobia bill they were offered and for no better reason than Trump said to and because it would aid Ukraine.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:53 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
They've been rejecting Israel+Ukraine for a long time now, because it would aid Ukraine. They've already rejected the Ukraine aid + rabid xenophobia bill they were offered and for no better reason than Trump said to and because it would aid Ukraine.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:53 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
To be clear: because Trump and that hard core of magahat republicans are traitors.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:54 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:54 AM on April 18 [2 favorites]
From Brian Beutler:
It’s darkly funny to me that a pincer movement of MAGAns and leftists mock liberals for claiming the GOP works hand in glove with Russia, and then multiple conservative Republican dissenters are like “no it’s true, we’re lousy with Russian influence.”posted by Justinian at 12:22 PM on April 18 [2 favorites]
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posted by tclark at 3:25 PM on March 18 [8 favorites]