The Great AirBnB Crackdown*
April 3, 2024 4:50 AM Subscribe
AirBnB should be responsible for vetting every rental property, owner, manager, etc and in the hook for their malfeasance. If the business model only works by evading laws or offloading costs to… nowhere, then it’s less a “tech unicorn” and more a “criminal conspiracy.” We need to shut down contractor loopholes everywhere.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:27 AM on April 3 [49 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:27 AM on April 3 [49 favorites]
In Canada employers and supervisors are personally responsible under the criminal (ie not regulatory) code for violations of the safety code. The implementation / enforcement of that changed in the 2010s and boy howdy did it change how things are done. Supervisors all the way up to directors going to jail for years for giving the nod to safety violations is now a thing and most of them don't want that to happen.
It's sad that if Sears had been an AirB&B employee his AirB&B managers and directors would be facing gaol time for rampant willful violation of both safety codes and lack of implementation of company policy but because he was a mere customer no such liability attaches. Violations of building safety codes should carry the same penalty.
posted by Mitheral at 5:52 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
It's sad that if Sears had been an AirB&B employee his AirB&B managers and directors would be facing gaol time for rampant willful violation of both safety codes and lack of implementation of company policy but because he was a mere customer no such liability attaches. Violations of building safety codes should carry the same penalty.
posted by Mitheral at 5:52 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
every tech company operates by virtue of breaking laws until they're forced to change because legacy infrastructure cannot compete with billions of dollars of venture capital.
and they still aren't profitable.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:23 AM on April 3 [42 favorites]
and they still aren't profitable.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 6:23 AM on April 3 [42 favorites]
We used to use the service heavily through 2010-2014 because it used to be cheap and we liked the accessibility of having a kitchen so we could go to farmer's markets and/or grocery stores to make our meals (trying to save more money). Often we stayed in someone's guest room; we stayed in a really lovely old farmhouse on the edge of Montpelier, VT for a MeFi Meetup. The older lady made her own bread and stained glass window ornaments. It was nice! But then we bought a house so trips anywhere become more infrequent. When I have tried in the recent past--two years or so--to look for AirBnB accomodations for weekend trips, my jaw dropped. How much??? Then we abandoned the Air BnB altogether and have gone back to looking for hotel room deals for weekend trips to Toronto or Montreal.
I know that savvy folks are aware that this is how these things start: Air BnB and Uber start out really cheap on purpose. But I didn't know that. I mean, I feel a little foolish for not understanding that but hindsight is 20/20.
posted by Kitteh at 6:27 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
I know that savvy folks are aware that this is how these things start: Air BnB and Uber start out really cheap on purpose. But I didn't know that. I mean, I feel a little foolish for not understanding that but hindsight is 20/20.
posted by Kitteh at 6:27 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
Where I live, Clackamas County Oregon, there are strict rules and an unofficial reward for snitching on your neighbors who are running STR’s without proper licensing, inspections, and fees. Many townships have also instituted additional taxes and disclosure rules that make casual STR operations more hassle that they are worth. As a result, there aren’t many STR’s - even in towns where they would clean up if they were available. The few that exist are as expensive as staying in a proper hotel or resort. There are also near bans on building ADU’s to house such operations. I personally wish there was more balance here and less emphasis on keeping progress out, but stories like this are the fuel that feeds the anti-progressive fire that burns bright in these far flung outposts.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 6:46 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 6:46 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
And the pressure to keep things cheap is how we get things like “every space that can be made minimally habitable will be rented, fire codes be damned.” Because someone will make that money. And people will keep dying.
I’m not sure AirBnB is less culpable than, say, Tether, which seems to indirectly support human trafficking for Pig Butchering scams in SE Asia. If you build a platform that enables crime, and you don’t work to combat that, you should be liable for your part in that crime.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on April 3 [9 favorites]
I’m not sure AirBnB is less culpable than, say, Tether, which seems to indirectly support human trafficking for Pig Butchering scams in SE Asia. If you build a platform that enables crime, and you don’t work to combat that, you should be liable for your part in that crime.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:49 AM on April 3 [9 favorites]
A little less seriously, AirBnB should get hefty fines for the capitalization in their name.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:51 AM on April 3 [9 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:51 AM on April 3 [9 favorites]
FWIW HotWire is the best thing I've ever used for finding professionally managed overnight accommodations on the [relative] cheap. They offer underbooked hotel rooms with the brand name filed off so you can't actually pick the chain you'll stay in, but with a little guessing and research you can usually figure it out, and the rates are significantly less than elsewhere. And once you commit to the booking it's usually like a Hampton Inn or something, probably with thin walls, but it's clean and safe and legal.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:54 AM on April 3 [10 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:54 AM on April 3 [10 favorites]
Airbnb has been in the "enshittification" phase of its life cycle for about a decade now.
posted by JohnFromGR at 6:55 AM on April 3 [13 favorites]
posted by JohnFromGR at 6:55 AM on April 3 [13 favorites]
.
Jesus. The price jarred me because it was almost exactly what I paid for a scary AirBnB outside of Boston. It was an apartment building behind a nice Edwardian stone front, and it looked so incredibly gross and ancient that you would think they put the dust and cobwebs on for a carnival dark ride. It was full of male graduate students (?), which could have posed a danger to a younger woman. But they were just going about their lives, and the most obnoxious thing they did was let the bathroom get into such a state that I didn't bother using it again when I woke up.
I was just there for a night, so I left at dawn, and there was too much going on in my life for me to make a formal complaint. But the hallway itself was a terrible fire hazard to the whole building, and all the dust and cobwebs would have gone up in a moment.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:56 AM on April 3 [5 favorites]
Jesus. The price jarred me because it was almost exactly what I paid for a scary AirBnB outside of Boston. It was an apartment building behind a nice Edwardian stone front, and it looked so incredibly gross and ancient that you would think they put the dust and cobwebs on for a carnival dark ride. It was full of male graduate students (?), which could have posed a danger to a younger woman. But they were just going about their lives, and the most obnoxious thing they did was let the bathroom get into such a state that I didn't bother using it again when I woke up.
I was just there for a night, so I left at dawn, and there was too much going on in my life for me to make a formal complaint. But the hallway itself was a terrible fire hazard to the whole building, and all the dust and cobwebs would have gone up in a moment.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:56 AM on April 3 [5 favorites]
. to begin with, tragic
anecdotally My wife and I stopped using AirBnB when, on our wedding anniversary trip, we were told upon check out to "empty the sawdust toilet" and place the offending bag in the city trash can.
1. The sawdust toilet was not mentioned in the listing
2. April 1 in Minnesota was particularly icy and snowy so the trash bin was upended by the county snow plow and burried in the ice/snow mound aside the road.
3. fucking gross
4. in the end she got a bad review for not moving a chair back into place.
Never again.
posted by djseafood at 7:09 AM on April 3 [15 favorites]
anecdotally My wife and I stopped using AirBnB when, on our wedding anniversary trip, we were told upon check out to "empty the sawdust toilet" and place the offending bag in the city trash can.
1. The sawdust toilet was not mentioned in the listing
2. April 1 in Minnesota was particularly icy and snowy so the trash bin was upended by the county snow plow and burried in the ice/snow mound aside the road.
3. fucking gross
4. in the end she got a bad review for not moving a chair back into place.
Never again.
posted by djseafood at 7:09 AM on April 3 [15 favorites]
This is going to sound like AirB&B apologia, which is bad, because AirB&B definitely doesn't need defending and it sucks mightily and it has done horrible things to our cities but the biggest issue in the Montreal fire is that the building was owned by a slumlord. Nothing I've read suggests that it was a less shitty or better inspected place back when it was properly tenanted.
There's a real push-pull in housing regulation right now where municipalities want to enforce fire codes and building codes, but they know that if they do, they will lose thousands of illegal basement suits and slumlord-run places and cities can't afford the hit to their housing supply. So they kinda look the other way. And then people die. But people die of homelessness, too.
Government funding to get things to code would help with a lot of the illegal basement suites, but the slumlords would just find a way to steal it and do nothing for their buildings.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:14 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
There's a real push-pull in housing regulation right now where municipalities want to enforce fire codes and building codes, but they know that if they do, they will lose thousands of illegal basement suits and slumlord-run places and cities can't afford the hit to their housing supply. So they kinda look the other way. And then people die. But people die of homelessness, too.
Government funding to get things to code would help with a lot of the illegal basement suites, but the slumlords would just find a way to steal it and do nothing for their buildings.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:14 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
Those Clackamas County ant-STR regulations must not have very sharp teeth.
We stayed at an Air BnB there that was in a building purpose built for renting. There was a caretaker and the owner lives in Provo, Utah.
There was also a blizzard in which two trees fell down across the street (I'm talking Doug firs several feet in diameter). Aside from slicing an entire hole in half, there was a power outage. The rental lost power, which meant no heat. We couldn't leave because of the blizzard. The caretaker kindly tried to help us by letting us use the wood burning stove that was explicitly off limits, but we could hear the owner didn't want him to let us do that when they were on the phone.
The owner wound up sending us a nasty email about a small mess left behind.
posted by keep_evolving at 7:18 AM on April 3 [6 favorites]
We stayed at an Air BnB there that was in a building purpose built for renting. There was a caretaker and the owner lives in Provo, Utah.
There was also a blizzard in which two trees fell down across the street (I'm talking Doug firs several feet in diameter). Aside from slicing an entire hole in half, there was a power outage. The rental lost power, which meant no heat. We couldn't leave because of the blizzard. The caretaker kindly tried to help us by letting us use the wood burning stove that was explicitly off limits, but we could hear the owner didn't want him to let us do that when they were on the phone.
The owner wound up sending us a nasty email about a small mess left behind.
posted by keep_evolving at 7:18 AM on April 3 [6 favorites]
The only place I have still been using AirBnB is Eastern Europe, where the nearly-everything-here-is-10-to-15-years-behind-the-US thing means they're at the point in the AirBnB cycle where it's still mostly just people renting a unit they own but don't live in, because of inheritance, relocation, etc. My MiL lives in a studio in Cluj-Napoca, Romania and it had been nice to be able to have an apartment with separate bedrooms for us and the kid when we go to visit. (In leaner years, we used to pile into the studio for a week at a time.)
I can already recognize that they're cresting the bell curve, though. There are ownership groups with portfolios of properties starting to pop up. They're not at the stage that it's breaking down into unsafe conditions and chaos yet, but they have tipped into the line where the owners seem to be competitively courting Instagram people with grammable details, and my recollection is that the one wave followed the other pretty closely.
I think we'll have to switch to staying in pensions, probably, or maybe "aparthotels" booked through Hotels.com or the like. We're getting older and our kid is the size of a grown-ass adult. I don't think we can go back to sharing 40 square meters for a week anymore.
VRBO used to be a less sketchy alternative in the US & Canada, but I'm wary it's maybe going the same way now, chasing that AirBnB money. The last few times I've visited that site, it has felt less like where reasonable Boomers occasionally let out their vacation home or mother-in-law suite (which is what it used to feel like to me) and more like the Pepsi to AirBnB's Coca-Cola.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:54 AM on April 3 [12 favorites]
I can already recognize that they're cresting the bell curve, though. There are ownership groups with portfolios of properties starting to pop up. They're not at the stage that it's breaking down into unsafe conditions and chaos yet, but they have tipped into the line where the owners seem to be competitively courting Instagram people with grammable details, and my recollection is that the one wave followed the other pretty closely.
I think we'll have to switch to staying in pensions, probably, or maybe "aparthotels" booked through Hotels.com or the like. We're getting older and our kid is the size of a grown-ass adult. I don't think we can go back to sharing 40 square meters for a week anymore.
VRBO used to be a less sketchy alternative in the US & Canada, but I'm wary it's maybe going the same way now, chasing that AirBnB money. The last few times I've visited that site, it has felt less like where reasonable Boomers occasionally let out their vacation home or mother-in-law suite (which is what it used to feel like to me) and more like the Pepsi to AirBnB's Coca-Cola.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:54 AM on April 3 [12 favorites]
Like all of these "disruptors" (Uber, Grubhub, etc.), these things only take off because they fill a real need for people. No, the legacy infrastructure can't compete with venture capital. But also: a lot of the time that legacy infrastructure (cabs!) sucked, because it was the only game in town with no apparent will or need to actually adapt and meet the needs of people.
The original iteration of AirBnB was a godsend to me as a non-driver, because I could finally stay actually near the places I was going instead of a 15 minute drive away. In a lot of US cities the only hotels are along a highway drag or right in a downtown that empties out by 6pm--and most of them have negligible at best mass transit. Being able to stay in the neighborhood where my friends or relatives actually lived and not need expensive cabs or endless rides was fantastic.
It was also great for large family gatherings; better, easier, and cheaper than a block of hotel rooms for a wedding. For my cousin, whose kids have myriad severe allergies, being able to store and prep food is critical.
It's a shame it's only being done by outright criminals.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:00 AM on April 3 [23 favorites]
The original iteration of AirBnB was a godsend to me as a non-driver, because I could finally stay actually near the places I was going instead of a 15 minute drive away. In a lot of US cities the only hotels are along a highway drag or right in a downtown that empties out by 6pm--and most of them have negligible at best mass transit. Being able to stay in the neighborhood where my friends or relatives actually lived and not need expensive cabs or endless rides was fantastic.
It was also great for large family gatherings; better, easier, and cheaper than a block of hotel rooms for a wedding. For my cousin, whose kids have myriad severe allergies, being able to store and prep food is critical.
It's a shame it's only being done by outright criminals.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:00 AM on April 3 [23 favorites]
Yeah, the central locations were great. In Cluj, we can either pay Important US Businessperson prices for a hotel on the edge of the city center, pay a reasonable rate but stay far enough out that it involves driving, or... AirBNB a few blocks from Mama's place, right smack in the heart of the city center and just walk everywhere.
We might squeak out one more year this way, but then we'll probably have to do something that involves renting a car.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:16 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
We might squeak out one more year this way, but then we'll probably have to do something that involves renting a car.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:16 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
AirBnB has forced me into an uncomfortable position of being more pro-HOA (at least for my HOA which is a very low key chill variety of HOA it seems). Our HOA already had a ban on STR but recently we passed a stricter (and more legally sound we are lead to believe) rule against any rentals under 30 days. I live in a touristy mountain town, yet we have never had any issues that some non-HOA areas near us have had (parties all night, snow clearing not being able to happen due to cars parked illegally etc). HOA fee of $100 a year worth it just for that…..even if I did annoyingly need to email them to request approval for putting up some nets behind a basketball hoop…(which they approved)..
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:28 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:28 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
* lol AirBnB will never face a reckoning, imo
In my area homeowners are rejecting it and supporting restrictions because they don’t like living next to them (NIMBY?), and this is a red pro business region.
posted by Selena777 at 8:33 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
In my area homeowners are rejecting it and supporting restrictions because they don’t like living next to them (NIMBY?), and this is a red pro business region.
posted by Selena777 at 8:33 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
VRBO is absolutely on the steep downslope of an enshittification curve as they've replaced the huge AirBnB ads on the side of the tower at Yonge/Carlton with VRBO ads making fun of AirBnB's even-further-along the enshittification curve practices. That ad space isn't cheap.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:40 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:40 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
Yeah, VRBO used to be a really different landscape, and it was basically the next-gen iteration of "vacation rentals" like you used to do with a phone number to call a single owner or property management company to book your yearly family beach/ski/desert/etc vacation.
The landscape in airbnb's monthly-plus business is still pretty different from truly short-short, at least in the US. We are staying generally 2 months at a time, with a dollar amount filter that excludes the party palaces and megatourist hot spots, and I don't know what the shorty-shorts are doing but almost every one we've booked in the past year and a half has literally forbidden us from letting anyone else into the property - like, you can't have someone over for dinner - without adding them to the reservation so they're covered by insurance. (And I don't know what the hell kind of trouble Albuquerque is getting into, but airbnbs there all have a clause saying they only rent to locals on a case-by-case basis, you have to contact them first, absolutely no parties or gatherings.)
Until hotels start offering comparably-priced monthly two-bedroom units with a kitchen (and accepts cats), that remains not an option for us. STR absolutely fills a need that other businesses are declining to serve. The only thing that comes close are some luxury apartment complexes that maintain a few furnished units, but they clearly expect you to be putting it on your daddy's/corporate Black Card given the rates they charge and the priority placed on various amenities.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:55 AM on April 3 [10 favorites]
The landscape in airbnb's monthly-plus business is still pretty different from truly short-short, at least in the US. We are staying generally 2 months at a time, with a dollar amount filter that excludes the party palaces and megatourist hot spots, and I don't know what the shorty-shorts are doing but almost every one we've booked in the past year and a half has literally forbidden us from letting anyone else into the property - like, you can't have someone over for dinner - without adding them to the reservation so they're covered by insurance. (And I don't know what the hell kind of trouble Albuquerque is getting into, but airbnbs there all have a clause saying they only rent to locals on a case-by-case basis, you have to contact them first, absolutely no parties or gatherings.)
Until hotels start offering comparably-priced monthly two-bedroom units with a kitchen (and accepts cats), that remains not an option for us. STR absolutely fills a need that other businesses are declining to serve. The only thing that comes close are some luxury apartment complexes that maintain a few furnished units, but they clearly expect you to be putting it on your daddy's/corporate Black Card given the rates they charge and the priority placed on various amenities.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:55 AM on April 3 [10 favorites]
In my area homeowners are rejecting it and supporting restrictions because they don’t like living next to them (NIMBY?)
When I moved to Chicago in 2012 we lived in a condo apartment across from a airbnb'ed unit. It was extremely unpleasant. There were constant parties, smoking in a non-smoking building and people constantly tried to enter our apartment because they were confused or drunk. So it is a bit NIMBY but also a bit practical. A lot of people AIRBNB so they can be asshole neighbors for a couple of days and then leave without consequences.
The funny part was that we were also undesirables in the building because we were renters in a condo building and the only reason we were allowed in was because it was still in the shadow of the 2008 crash and the building had not yet re-tightened its restrictions on unit use. The property manager was such an asshole about renters that he wanted us to use the freight elevator rather than the passenger elevators! In the end we were offered to buy the unit which was not expensive thanks to 2008's crash but said no and specifically said it was because of the property manager's unpleasantness. (also it was on the third floor and we woken up every morning by the buses stop announcements).
posted by srboisvert at 9:00 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
When I moved to Chicago in 2012 we lived in a condo apartment across from a airbnb'ed unit. It was extremely unpleasant. There were constant parties, smoking in a non-smoking building and people constantly tried to enter our apartment because they were confused or drunk. So it is a bit NIMBY but also a bit practical. A lot of people AIRBNB so they can be asshole neighbors for a couple of days and then leave without consequences.
The funny part was that we were also undesirables in the building because we were renters in a condo building and the only reason we were allowed in was because it was still in the shadow of the 2008 crash and the building had not yet re-tightened its restrictions on unit use. The property manager was such an asshole about renters that he wanted us to use the freight elevator rather than the passenger elevators! In the end we were offered to buy the unit which was not expensive thanks to 2008's crash but said no and specifically said it was because of the property manager's unpleasantness. (also it was on the third floor and we woken up every morning by the buses stop announcements).
posted by srboisvert at 9:00 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
I found a place on AirBnB in Paris that hotels simply couldn't offer: space for eight people (reduced to six), with a kitchen and an elevator. And with a couple of senior citizens in the group, we couldn't be too far out.
Hotel rooms there in our price range were small, so we couldn't all gather, and lacked a kitchen, so we couldn't cook. The "aparthotels" were farther out and cost a lot. *shrug* It was the difference between going on the trip or bailing out.
(It was quite clear from the listings which places are where someone actually lives/spends time, and which were just scraps of real estate with a lot of white paint and a few pieces of Ikea furniture.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:02 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Hotel rooms there in our price range were small, so we couldn't all gather, and lacked a kitchen, so we couldn't cook. The "aparthotels" were farther out and cost a lot. *shrug* It was the difference between going on the trip or bailing out.
(It was quite clear from the listings which places are where someone actually lives/spends time, and which were just scraps of real estate with a lot of white paint and a few pieces of Ikea furniture.)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:02 AM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Kingston is trying to regulate STRs (and by extension, AirBnB) but it's pretty toothless in terms of penalties. Basically, they are relying on people being honest about owning/renting them out so they can put them on a register. There was a really brokedown house catty-corner across the street from me for years--the kind of place where there were holes in the floors and the paint was peeling off in strips--and one summer I saw construction work on it. "Oh cool! New neighbours!" I thought. Cut to a handful of months later and the house is listed on AirBnB with two separate apartments going for $300/night. It sucks because housing is so precarious and expensive for people, and they have 24-hour fucking floodlight attached to the side that faces our street. And then another house near us was turned into AirBnB full time. (If I do search in my neighbourhood, there are A LOT of them. Some are the spare rooms in people's house, but it seems that most are just full time STRs.)
posted by Kitteh at 9:07 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:07 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Good luck to the folks trying to regulate AirBnB and other STRs. This is a big fight in Texas because it pits homeowners (a big voting constituency), who don't like having their neighborhoods wrecked by STRs, against big companies who make lots of campaign contributions.
When I lived in Austin, we were in a new development of small houses that was legally a condo regime. Sort of like an apartment complex, with the amenities like a pool, but most of the houses were freestanding (some were above detached garages for other units). The condo rules/HOA rules specifically said no STRs, but of course nobody paid attention to that. Some folks even bought units to use as STRs. These houses were perfect for bachelorette parties and between Uber and the bus system it was a short hop to Dirty Sixth. You can imagine what kind of STR experience we had as neighbors to these buildings: not so bad for us but we were far from the pool and none of the houses immediately around us were rented out. There was a lot of complaining from people who bought houses to live in but it was very clear that folks who wanted to live in a neighborhood faced a lot of opposition from folks who bought houses to use as investment rental properties. This fight wasn't why we left, but it was a factor in deciding to do it.
I think there's space for STR flats in the market but the "we're gonna buy a random house in a neighborhood and turn it into a party house", which was the model we saw in Austin, isn't it. But we're never going to solve the problems of housing (and this falls into that sphere, along with homelessness) as long as houses are financial investments and the biggest one most of us who have houses make.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:23 AM on April 3 [10 favorites]
When I lived in Austin, we were in a new development of small houses that was legally a condo regime. Sort of like an apartment complex, with the amenities like a pool, but most of the houses were freestanding (some were above detached garages for other units). The condo rules/HOA rules specifically said no STRs, but of course nobody paid attention to that. Some folks even bought units to use as STRs. These houses were perfect for bachelorette parties and between Uber and the bus system it was a short hop to Dirty Sixth. You can imagine what kind of STR experience we had as neighbors to these buildings: not so bad for us but we were far from the pool and none of the houses immediately around us were rented out. There was a lot of complaining from people who bought houses to live in but it was very clear that folks who wanted to live in a neighborhood faced a lot of opposition from folks who bought houses to use as investment rental properties. This fight wasn't why we left, but it was a factor in deciding to do it.
I think there's space for STR flats in the market but the "we're gonna buy a random house in a neighborhood and turn it into a party house", which was the model we saw in Austin, isn't it. But we're never going to solve the problems of housing (and this falls into that sphere, along with homelessness) as long as houses are financial investments and the biggest one most of us who have houses make.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:23 AM on April 3 [10 favorites]
A little less seriously, AirBnB should get hefty fines for the capitalization in their name.
You don't have to capitalize it that way if you don't want to. If the slumlord-as-a-service app is sad that you haven't followed branding guidelines that's good, because it should be sad.
You also have my permission to deadname twitter.
posted by Vulgar Euphemism at 9:46 AM on April 3 [11 favorites]
You don't have to capitalize it that way if you don't want to. If the slumlord-as-a-service app is sad that you haven't followed branding guidelines that's good, because it should be sad.
You also have my permission to deadname twitter.
posted by Vulgar Euphemism at 9:46 AM on April 3 [11 favorites]
I don’t think opposition to short-term rentals is NIMBY at all. People don’t generally live in hotels for a reason. This isn’t the same thing at all as someone knowingly buying a house next to a bar, or something.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:47 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 9:47 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
I'm wrong plenty of times but I do take pride in being anti-airBnB (and anti-Uber) before it was cool to be anti those things!
posted by Justinian at 10:18 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:18 AM on April 3 [3 favorites]
(nb: I'm not anti everything like uber; one could imagine running an ethical rideshare/taxi company. Uber is not that company.)
posted by Justinian at 10:20 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:20 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
People don’t generally live in hotels for a reason.
People do generally live in hotels, because hotels don't require credit checks. The 'extended stay' hotels in most cities are filled with people who otherwise would be homeless. Higher income people don't generally live in hotels, but that's a soft rule too, and even if they live in them temporarily they don't live in them for long periods.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:35 AM on April 3 [13 favorites]
People do generally live in hotels, because hotels don't require credit checks. The 'extended stay' hotels in most cities are filled with people who otherwise would be homeless. Higher income people don't generally live in hotels, but that's a soft rule too, and even if they live in them temporarily they don't live in them for long periods.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:35 AM on April 3 [13 favorites]
In the past, higher-income people did sometimes live in hotels, like Eloise at the Plaza. I'm not privy to what they do now, but extended-stay hotels can be a godsend for anyone who needs more room and use of a kitchen. On the other hand, they're not always built well or in safe neighborhoods.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:43 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 10:43 AM on April 3 [7 favorites]
People do generally live in hotels, because hotels don't require credit checks.
Just because some people live in hotels does not mean that people generally live in hotels.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:58 AM on April 3 [6 favorites]
Just because some people live in hotels does not mean that people generally live in hotels.
posted by rhymedirective at 10:58 AM on April 3 [6 favorites]
These sorts of debates are why I tend not to use ‘NIMBY’, and just call stuff classist when it’s classist, or racist when it’s racist. Like, is it NIMBYism when a racialized community is fighting against having the most polluting industries or dumps zoned near their neighborhood due to environmental racism? Or when the First Nations group doesn’t want the pipeline going over their ancestral territory or reservation? Or when a long standing working class community doesn’t want to be forced out and have their community dissolved due to smaller apartment houses being torn down for larger but more expensive condo buildings? I’ve seen all of these things, as well as people who oppose fracking or other mining practices that can potentially cause serious health issues for people living nearby where the eventual cleanup and decommissioning costs aren’t set aside up front, and tenant groups fighting against airbnbs/short term rentals, described as NIMBYism. But they are very different situations from the wealthier folks who don’t want mixed income housing in their neighborhood, or increasing density that doesn’t force them out of their neighborhood but just infills or allows larger apartment buildings on currently empty lots, etc.
It is useful to be able to recognize when people say they support something positive like housing for those who are homeless in theory, but never seem to be able to bring themselves to agree to any specific actual proposal in real life, as a problem. But the problem in those cases is that the actual actions are classist or racist or both, despite the theoretical rhetoric sounding good. It’s the problem of people talking the talk but not walking the walk. The phrase NIMBY is only useful if it can help people focus on outcomes and actions over rhetoric and if it doesn’t prevent us from making connections between the same type of problem in different contexts, or enable say business lobbying groups with ulterior motives to create confusion in recognizing and instantiating our values.
posted by eviemath at 11:00 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
It is useful to be able to recognize when people say they support something positive like housing for those who are homeless in theory, but never seem to be able to bring themselves to agree to any specific actual proposal in real life, as a problem. But the problem in those cases is that the actual actions are classist or racist or both, despite the theoretical rhetoric sounding good. It’s the problem of people talking the talk but not walking the walk. The phrase NIMBY is only useful if it can help people focus on outcomes and actions over rhetoric and if it doesn’t prevent us from making connections between the same type of problem in different contexts, or enable say business lobbying groups with ulterior motives to create confusion in recognizing and instantiating our values.
posted by eviemath at 11:00 AM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I know of an anti STR vigilante group that goes to known AirBnBs and sets off air horns and fireworks and other general nuisance style stuff (scattering into the woods when the cops come)...eventually the AirBnB listings get such bad reviews that they stop getting rented then the houses get sold or rented long term. I think this was initially a reaction to the party AirBnbs that were ruining neighborhoods, but it's gained some traction.
posted by schyler523 at 11:01 AM on April 3 [17 favorites]
posted by schyler523 at 11:01 AM on April 3 [17 favorites]
You don't have to capitalize it that way if you don't want to. If the slumlord-as-a-service app is sad that you haven't followed branding guidelines that's good, because it should be sad.
Wait, are you really “complaining on MetaFilter about something truly dumb that I could easily ignore”-shaming me? Because that’s next level.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:17 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Wait, are you really “complaining on MetaFilter about something truly dumb that I could easily ignore”-shaming me? Because that’s next level.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:17 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
BC is introducing rules limiting AirBnBs to primary residences and one secondary suite in most places (municipalities over 10,000 people and surroundings), and making it easier for municipalities to impose their own, stricter rules (such as requiring AirBnB listings to include business license numbers). Municipalities can opt out if they have a rental vacancy rate of 3% or more for two consecutive years. There's only a handful that would qualify.
Vancouver has limited AirBnBs to primary residences and requires displaying a business license number, but AirBnB refused to take down listings without these new provincial rules.
There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth among a certain crowd. There has been longstanding treatment of condos like investment commodities, where using AirBnB to rent them out has been a profitable source of additional income for those who buy and sell condos on a whim, and aren't willing to accept long-term renters and have to comply with tenancy laws.
I have little sympathy. So long as people need homes to live in and can't get them, homes should be for living in.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:26 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
Vancouver has limited AirBnBs to primary residences and requires displaying a business license number, but AirBnB refused to take down listings without these new provincial rules.
There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth among a certain crowd. There has been longstanding treatment of condos like investment commodities, where using AirBnB to rent them out has been a profitable source of additional income for those who buy and sell condos on a whim, and aren't willing to accept long-term renters and have to comply with tenancy laws.
I have little sympathy. So long as people need homes to live in and can't get them, homes should be for living in.
posted by lookoutbelow at 11:26 AM on April 3 [16 favorites]
In Canada we've got a housing shortage so even though the initial use case of AirBnB, someone renting out a spare room in their house for a short-term stay, would be something I broadly agree with, right now it would be better to have that spare room rented out to someone to live in.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:27 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:27 AM on April 3 [2 favorites]
right now it would be better to have that spare room rented out to someone to live in.
I mean, okay, but most people in the original AirBnB setup were not in fact looking for permanent roommates and they would not have made their spare rooms available for that.
There's no question short-term rentals are bad in a housing crisis but I have to think that "people who would otherwise rent to a full time roommate won't do that" is a pretty small sliver of the issue.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:47 AM on April 3
I mean, okay, but most people in the original AirBnB setup were not in fact looking for permanent roommates and they would not have made their spare rooms available for that.
There's no question short-term rentals are bad in a housing crisis but I have to think that "people who would otherwise rent to a full time roommate won't do that" is a pretty small sliver of the issue.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:47 AM on April 3
Yeah I don't think that people renting out a spare room are the main users of AirBnBs now but I'm easily against all the other uses, that's the only one that gives me a bit of pause.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:27 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:27 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
I used to think my situation was actually kind of ideal for AirBnB; I had a cute studio apartment in a fun neighborhood, but I travel ~10 days per month and it just sat there empty all of that time. Consideration for my neighbors, and my problems with the company, were enough to prevent me doing it, but if that is where the AirBnB model had basically stayed, I don't think anyone would consider them the same kind of active menace that we currently do.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:45 PM on April 3 [9 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:45 PM on April 3 [9 favorites]
Like all of these "disruptors" (Uber, Grubhub, etc.), these things only take off because they fill a real need for people. No, the legacy infrastructure can't compete with venture capital. But also: a lot of the time that legacy infrastructure (cabs!) sucked, because it was the only game in town with no apparent will or need to actually adapt and meet the needs of people.
I think one of the things going on is that: it's not actually that hard to run these businesses on a model that creates a reasonable profit. But in this country, we don't accept that there's any reason to ever limit the amount that a company can charge for something. The argument is "Well, someone will come along with a cheaper option if it's feasible", but that doesn't address the de facto price fixing that happens. I know these places can be run more cheaply because these places used to be run more cheaply. Costs have not gone up that much.
Twenty years ago, it was trivially easy for me to find a 50$ low grade hotel. And a lot of the hotels had stoves and refrigerators so you could cook food. Even with the inflation problem we have going on, where are the 80$ a night hotels? I look online and the fucking Holiday Inn is now 150$ a night. And they only offer a mini fridge, so you have to use their restaurant or order out if you want to eat, because that's how they get their profit margins. Or more likely, because they don't want people living there, because then they have to offer renter protections and go through eviction processes.
posted by corb at 12:48 PM on April 3 [11 favorites]
I think one of the things going on is that: it's not actually that hard to run these businesses on a model that creates a reasonable profit. But in this country, we don't accept that there's any reason to ever limit the amount that a company can charge for something. The argument is "Well, someone will come along with a cheaper option if it's feasible", but that doesn't address the de facto price fixing that happens. I know these places can be run more cheaply because these places used to be run more cheaply. Costs have not gone up that much.
Twenty years ago, it was trivially easy for me to find a 50$ low grade hotel. And a lot of the hotels had stoves and refrigerators so you could cook food. Even with the inflation problem we have going on, where are the 80$ a night hotels? I look online and the fucking Holiday Inn is now 150$ a night. And they only offer a mini fridge, so you have to use their restaurant or order out if you want to eat, because that's how they get their profit margins. Or more likely, because they don't want people living there, because then they have to offer renter protections and go through eviction processes.
posted by corb at 12:48 PM on April 3 [11 favorites]
> corb: I know these places can be run more cheaply because these places used to be run more cheaply. Costs have not gone up that much.
I believe that this is actually a point of contention. Specifically, I think that there is a general sense among some observers that these places (e.g.: Uber, AirBnB, DoorDash, etc...) were only able to offer lower consumer prices because they were essentially being subsidized with VC money. The idea being that once they'd achieved market dominance, they could jack up their prices and stop burning up their VC money. So, an alternative to a cost-based explanation for increasing prices is the idea that these companies have either reached that sufficient level of market dominance or they're running out of VC money (and/or patience) to burn.
posted by mhum at 1:26 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I believe that this is actually a point of contention. Specifically, I think that there is a general sense among some observers that these places (e.g.: Uber, AirBnB, DoorDash, etc...) were only able to offer lower consumer prices because they were essentially being subsidized with VC money. The idea being that once they'd achieved market dominance, they could jack up their prices and stop burning up their VC money. So, an alternative to a cost-based explanation for increasing prices is the idea that these companies have either reached that sufficient level of market dominance or they're running out of VC money (and/or patience) to burn.
posted by mhum at 1:26 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
I'm interested in the difference between AirBnB and Uber on that pricing from. We know Uber was subsidizing rideshare with Saudi oil money, etc, which they could do because Uber was setting the rates they were paying drivers and the rates they were collecting from passengers.
But AirBnB isn't setting the rates for hosts, as far as I know? They might be driving up the share that they take as their VC funding runs out, and thus driving up prices, but were they ever directly subsidizing hosts (other than perhaps by offering some forms of insurance?)
It seems like the factors increasing prices between Uber and AirBnB might be very different. Or, tbh, they might not be, because I am only guessing.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:30 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
But AirBnB isn't setting the rates for hosts, as far as I know? They might be driving up the share that they take as their VC funding runs out, and thus driving up prices, but were they ever directly subsidizing hosts (other than perhaps by offering some forms of insurance?)
It seems like the factors increasing prices between Uber and AirBnB might be very different. Or, tbh, they might not be, because I am only guessing.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:30 PM on April 3 [3 favorites]
where are the 80$ a night hotels? I look online and the fucking Holiday Inn is now 150$ a night
Sometimes, I think the United States is prisoner to constantly accelerating standards of luxury. Hotels are like homes that way. Formica and linoleum and 20 inch CRTs have been replaced by marble and tile and 65 inch LCDs. Everything has to have can lights and dimmers now, built-ins and espresso makers. Enough people exepct all of that stuff, so it goes in, even at the Holiday Inn, so then prices go up.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:33 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Sometimes, I think the United States is prisoner to constantly accelerating standards of luxury. Hotels are like homes that way. Formica and linoleum and 20 inch CRTs have been replaced by marble and tile and 65 inch LCDs. Everything has to have can lights and dimmers now, built-ins and espresso makers. Enough people exepct all of that stuff, so it goes in, even at the Holiday Inn, so then prices go up.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:33 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
where are the 80$ a night hotels? I look online and the fucking Holiday Inn is now 150$ a night
Sometimes, I think the United States is prisoner to constantly accelerating standards of luxury.
Or maybe it's that wages never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever go up?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:37 PM on April 3 [18 favorites]
Sometimes, I think the United States is prisoner to constantly accelerating standards of luxury.
Or maybe it's that wages never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever go up?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:37 PM on April 3 [18 favorites]
Or maybe it's that wages never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever go up?
That too, for sure. But for real, haven't you ever stayed in a hotel that was a "luxury" hotel room in 1920 that had simpler and less expensive finishes than say, a fucking Best Western in 2024? Why does everything have to go that way?
We're trying to cope with declines in spending power and meanwhile the Holiday Inn wants you to know they have a fully equipped gym and giant smart TVs in every room.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:43 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
That too, for sure. But for real, haven't you ever stayed in a hotel that was a "luxury" hotel room in 1920 that had simpler and less expensive finishes than say, a fucking Best Western in 2024? Why does everything have to go that way?
We're trying to cope with declines in spending power and meanwhile the Holiday Inn wants you to know they have a fully equipped gym and giant smart TVs in every room.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:43 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
(Those TVs are cheap as hell though, way cheaper than the 20 inch CRTs were in their day. I have a winter coat that cost more than my TV and it's only a so-so winter coat.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:51 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 1:51 PM on April 3 [8 favorites]
where are the 80$ a night hotels? I look online and the fucking Holiday Inn is now 150$ a night
Hotels are underbuilt, same as homes. The demand has gone up, supply has not. Jacksonville FL has more hotel rooms than NYC. Atlanta only has slightly fewer hotel rooms than LA, with Atlanta being the 9th largest metro in the US and LA #2.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:52 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Hotels are underbuilt, same as homes. The demand has gone up, supply has not. Jacksonville FL has more hotel rooms than NYC. Atlanta only has slightly fewer hotel rooms than LA, with Atlanta being the 9th largest metro in the US and LA #2.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:52 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
> jacquilynne: "I'm interested in the difference between AirBnB and Uber on that pricing from. [...] But AirBnB isn't setting the rates for hosts, as far as I know? [...]
It seems like the factors increasing prices between Uber and AirBnB might be very different."
Ah, that's a very good point. I lazily neglected to recall that AirBnB is fundamentally different from companies like Uber because, as you observe, they don't directly set the prices on their platform (which should have been everyone's first clue that Uber was always just a cab company with an app and never actually a "platform" or "transportation network company" or whatever).
Upon further reflection, I can't help but wonder if, in AirBnB's case, it was less about VC money/patience running out causing the increase in prices and perhaps more about the professionalization of AirBnB hosts. I can imagine AirBnB prices being relatively low when it was mainly people renting spare rooms out of their existing, already-occupied dwellings, essentially reaping some extra money out of a previously sunk cost. But once people started taking out mortgages to acquire properties to rent out as AirBnBs and hiring cleaning & management companies to manage these properties, that feels like it could shift prices upwards.
posted by mhum at 2:56 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
It seems like the factors increasing prices between Uber and AirBnB might be very different."
Ah, that's a very good point. I lazily neglected to recall that AirBnB is fundamentally different from companies like Uber because, as you observe, they don't directly set the prices on their platform (which should have been everyone's first clue that Uber was always just a cab company with an app and never actually a "platform" or "transportation network company" or whatever).
Upon further reflection, I can't help but wonder if, in AirBnB's case, it was less about VC money/patience running out causing the increase in prices and perhaps more about the professionalization of AirBnB hosts. I can imagine AirBnB prices being relatively low when it was mainly people renting spare rooms out of their existing, already-occupied dwellings, essentially reaping some extra money out of a previously sunk cost. But once people started taking out mortgages to acquire properties to rent out as AirBnBs and hiring cleaning & management companies to manage these properties, that feels like it could shift prices upwards.
posted by mhum at 2:56 PM on April 3 [4 favorites]
Airbnb is a big part of the reason I left Asheville. The city tried to regulate them. It put in an ordinance saying a homeowner or tenant - the tenant part is very key - had to live on the property for it to be an Airbnb. Investment firms promptly bought swathes of West Asheville (formerly known as a comfortable, slightly run down, artsy working class neighborhood) demolished the old houses and built huge houses with decks and hot tubs on every level and a small dark apartment in the basement. Then they installed someone as a long term tenant in that basement flat and turned the rest of the 4000 square foot vertical McMansion into an Airbnb - rent one apartment or all four! Party down, bachelors and bachelorettes! They took over my neighborhood - there are at least six on my old street - and made it essentially unlivable. It drove the cost of housing to astronomical and unlivable heights and anyway, I hate them.
Which is not to say I am not using them, hypocrite that I am. We're having an open house at my house this weekend and the residents are not welcome to attend. Where else am I supposed to go with a large dog and a toddler in tow while my daughter and son are at work? Where else can I just cook meals and not try to find a restaurant that will accommodate a pescetarian, a vegan, a celiac and a two year old with an egg allergy for three meals a day? Actually at this point in my fury at this entire situation I feel the real estate company should just give us a loaner apartment and I question why that is not a thing, but failing that, I found a probably illegal airbnb that will be slightly cheaper than two hotel rooms and booked it. The thing is, where do you go when your house is being fumigated or shown or for whatever reason you can't live there for several days and you can't get off work or afford an actual vacation? I hate that I feel forced into an unethical choice.
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:04 PM on April 3 [13 favorites]
Which is not to say I am not using them, hypocrite that I am. We're having an open house at my house this weekend and the residents are not welcome to attend. Where else am I supposed to go with a large dog and a toddler in tow while my daughter and son are at work? Where else can I just cook meals and not try to find a restaurant that will accommodate a pescetarian, a vegan, a celiac and a two year old with an egg allergy for three meals a day? Actually at this point in my fury at this entire situation I feel the real estate company should just give us a loaner apartment and I question why that is not a thing, but failing that, I found a probably illegal airbnb that will be slightly cheaper than two hotel rooms and booked it. The thing is, where do you go when your house is being fumigated or shown or for whatever reason you can't live there for several days and you can't get off work or afford an actual vacation? I hate that I feel forced into an unethical choice.
posted by mygothlaundry at 3:04 PM on April 3 [13 favorites]
For those curious about what VRBO is like these days: my last interaction with them was in 2021, when one of their property owners threatened me with violence, had exterior cameras pointed inside the windows of mouse-infested, rotting cabin I was renting with my friends and family, and who remotely shut off the hot water supply multiple times during our stay.
VRBO customer service was absolutely useless in dealing with any of this: "we are just a middle-man, we just connect you with the property owner, we have no other role."
As for Air BnB being regulated in Montreal - as a long time resident, I assure you that the city and the province have done next to nothing about shutting down short term rentals, which are everywhere and have dramatically reduced long term rental supply and security.
posted by jordantwodelta at 4:04 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
VRBO customer service was absolutely useless in dealing with any of this: "we are just a middle-man, we just connect you with the property owner, we have no other role."
As for Air BnB being regulated in Montreal - as a long time resident, I assure you that the city and the province have done next to nothing about shutting down short term rentals, which are everywhere and have dramatically reduced long term rental supply and security.
posted by jordantwodelta at 4:04 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
AirBnB is (often) cheaper because they don't have to find appropriately zoned property, buy or construct a suitable building, obtain business licences, maintain that property, pay staff, pay local tax rates, and otherwise operate as a member of any given community. They take their cut while doing little of value. They just deflect accountability onto other individuals and companies who are harder to regulate.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:18 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:18 PM on April 3 [7 favorites]
.
posted by ageispolis at 8:14 PM on April 3
posted by ageispolis at 8:14 PM on April 3
Short-term accommodation is part of the service industry.
Hotels have service departments. Even at a no-name motel in the middle of nowhere the proprietor will eventually trudge to the front desk.
Try talking to someone at airbnb.
I had some fun times at a few 'bnbs in the teens, but the covid-era places have all been money-grubbing disasters. Now we stay at hotels in desolate suburbs by malls or freeway interchanges, (because downtown prices are surreal) and spend a little more on vacation, but we get to try interesting restaurants. And the towels and sheets are always clean.
posted by morspin at 10:02 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
Hotels have service departments. Even at a no-name motel in the middle of nowhere the proprietor will eventually trudge to the front desk.
Try talking to someone at airbnb.
I had some fun times at a few 'bnbs in the teens, but the covid-era places have all been money-grubbing disasters. Now we stay at hotels in desolate suburbs by malls or freeway interchanges, (because downtown prices are surreal) and spend a little more on vacation, but we get to try interesting restaurants. And the towels and sheets are always clean.
posted by morspin at 10:02 PM on April 3 [2 favorites]
STR absolutely fills a need that other businesses are declining to serve.
They are declining because it's illegal.
The vast majority of AirBnBs don't have legal fire suppression, exit provisions, ADA accommodation, commercial hallway and stairwell sizing, emergency lighting, etc. that we require of short term rentals. There is a reason hotels don't look like homes.
AirBnBs tend to be in locations not zoned for that use. Like half the comments in this thread are either props or rants for them being in residential neighbourhoods.
Most won't be paying commercial rates for water, sewer, garbage pick up, or property taxes (effectively recieving a subsidy from everyone one else for their illegal business). Most won't have road infrastructure we require of hotels. Or meet commercial landscaping requirements. Or parking minimums.
They usually aren't paying hotel sales taxes. Or paying a hotel business licence.
They enable discrimination against protected classes.
They don't pass fire department inspections. Or have fire alarm panels. Or get those systems regularly inspected.
They'll often have handymen instead of licenced tradespeople perform regulated work.
Electrical provisioning is always insufficient. And they aren't paying commercial hydro rates.
Their spas aren't equipped withe the safety features required of public spas.
Basically I'm not sure there are any hotel specific laws or regulations they are in compliance with so of course they are cheaper.
posted by Mitheral at 10:36 PM on April 3 [23 favorites]
They are declining because it's illegal.
The vast majority of AirBnBs don't have legal fire suppression, exit provisions, ADA accommodation, commercial hallway and stairwell sizing, emergency lighting, etc. that we require of short term rentals. There is a reason hotels don't look like homes.
AirBnBs tend to be in locations not zoned for that use. Like half the comments in this thread are either props or rants for them being in residential neighbourhoods.
Most won't be paying commercial rates for water, sewer, garbage pick up, or property taxes (effectively recieving a subsidy from everyone one else for their illegal business). Most won't have road infrastructure we require of hotels. Or meet commercial landscaping requirements. Or parking minimums.
They usually aren't paying hotel sales taxes. Or paying a hotel business licence.
They enable discrimination against protected classes.
They don't pass fire department inspections. Or have fire alarm panels. Or get those systems regularly inspected.
They'll often have handymen instead of licenced tradespeople perform regulated work.
Electrical provisioning is always insufficient. And they aren't paying commercial hydro rates.
Their spas aren't equipped withe the safety features required of public spas.
Basically I'm not sure there are any hotel specific laws or regulations they are in compliance with so of course they are cheaper.
posted by Mitheral at 10:36 PM on April 3 [23 favorites]
To add to what Mitheral says: in a way, AirBnB is a return to form. People used to "take lodgings" like this all the time, before modern zoning regulations and fire codes. Widows or hard-up families would take in boarders to make ends meet, or sometimes rent extra space for special occasions in the town. (For Black people in the US, these customs lasted longer than otherwise because of Jim Crow.) Hotels were for the fancy types; inns weren't somewhere you wanted to spend more time than it took to rest horses.
This isn't to say I think we should return to ad-hoc rentals because it's "natural" or some damn thing. We have regulations for a reason, and I wish we didn't have to reinvent them just because living memory died out.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:29 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
This isn't to say I think we should return to ad-hoc rentals because it's "natural" or some damn thing. We have regulations for a reason, and I wish we didn't have to reinvent them just because living memory died out.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:29 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
Thing is, lodging houses of the bygone era didn't have the internet to pre-sell rooms. A traveller would arrive in town and look for a place to stay. Lodging houses would be operated by people on-site, to take cash. You could get a feel for each place before you committed to one. There would be reputations on the line; one could ask at a bar or tavern where a decent place to stay was. Maybe your lodging house was a rat-infested firetrap, but everyone knew it was, and you could only charge bottom dollar for it. Well run places had rules, like no guests, or no men. The super would be extremely careful about who they rented to, because letting obnoxious/dangerous/thieving/noisy people into your lodging house would affect their reputation and income directly. And even so, there were often inspections and regulations.
The internet has made pre-selling garbage to chumps with little recourse of refund a viable business model, and it sucks.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:54 AM on April 4 [9 favorites]
The internet has made pre-selling garbage to chumps with little recourse of refund a viable business model, and it sucks.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:54 AM on April 4 [9 favorites]
Basically I'm not sure there are any hotel specific laws or regulations they are in compliance with so of course they are cheaper.
Most of the those 'hotel specific' laws were created to make multi-family housing more expensive, not because they are required for any quantifiable safety reason. New build single-family homes (maybe in Canada, not in the US) are not required to be ADA complaint either, but they should be. California is the only US state that requires new build single-family homes to have fire suppression systems, but I believe you can get out of it pretty easily there. Most other states only require fire suppression systems for houses that surpass 3000-4000 sq ft and larger.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:27 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
Most of the those 'hotel specific' laws were created to make multi-family housing more expensive, not because they are required for any quantifiable safety reason. New build single-family homes (maybe in Canada, not in the US) are not required to be ADA complaint either, but they should be. California is the only US state that requires new build single-family homes to have fire suppression systems, but I believe you can get out of it pretty easily there. Most other states only require fire suppression systems for houses that surpass 3000-4000 sq ft and larger.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:27 AM on April 4 [1 favorite]
We have regulations for a reason, and I wish we didn't have to reinvent them just because living memory died out.
I think the solution to this is government-run rooming houses, so that people who need to travel can do so inexpensively. No television, no coffee maker, everything painted government grey, each room has one bed but you can get extra cots if you ask for it. The guy at the desk is a surly GS-4 who checks you in without service or a smile. You cannot get a wakeup call or information about neighboring restaurants. The mattresses are thin and the blankets are government issue Army wool. But they are 50$ or less a night.
posted by corb at 7:42 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
I think the solution to this is government-run rooming houses, so that people who need to travel can do so inexpensively. No television, no coffee maker, everything painted government grey, each room has one bed but you can get extra cots if you ask for it. The guy at the desk is a surly GS-4 who checks you in without service or a smile. You cannot get a wakeup call or information about neighboring restaurants. The mattresses are thin and the blankets are government issue Army wool. But they are 50$ or less a night.
posted by corb at 7:42 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
They are declining because it's illegal.
I am unaware of any jurisdiction where it is illegal for a hotel to offer multiple bedrooms with a kitchen at a price that isn't geared to corporate expense write-offs. There was a time when cabin or condo complexes geared to vacationing families was really normal - Poconos, Florida, most of the Eastern seaboard - and most of them only fell out of favor because they were generally too self-contained, too resort-y for a population that wanted to go do their own activities.
But I think the truth is that hotels (excluding maybe the disneyverse) don't want to do this because they'd have to justify their overinflated single-room price in comparison to what they've happily rarefied as a "suite". This is why you see airbnb fucking up the local legislation in every city and Hilton et all surprisingly quiet on the lobbying front. I suspect they are waiting for the inevitable collapse and regulatory backlash to step into that market vacuum, but they could choose to kill it if they wanted to. But if they can't charge $800+ a night, it won't Increase Shareholder Value.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:40 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
I am unaware of any jurisdiction where it is illegal for a hotel to offer multiple bedrooms with a kitchen at a price that isn't geared to corporate expense write-offs. There was a time when cabin or condo complexes geared to vacationing families was really normal - Poconos, Florida, most of the Eastern seaboard - and most of them only fell out of favor because they were generally too self-contained, too resort-y for a population that wanted to go do their own activities.
But I think the truth is that hotels (excluding maybe the disneyverse) don't want to do this because they'd have to justify their overinflated single-room price in comparison to what they've happily rarefied as a "suite". This is why you see airbnb fucking up the local legislation in every city and Hilton et all surprisingly quiet on the lobbying front. I suspect they are waiting for the inevitable collapse and regulatory backlash to step into that market vacuum, but they could choose to kill it if they wanted to. But if they can't charge $800+ a night, it won't Increase Shareholder Value.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:40 AM on April 4 [5 favorites]
I used to read a lot of nineteenth c fiction and memoir for Project Gutenberg and there were lots and lots of rural room-and-board rented for as much as a season. It was planned ahead, though, by mail. Possibly advertised in city newspapers. Possibly vetted both ways by some chain of acquaintances.
(The other bit that sticks in my head is that people happily took in tuberculosis patients. Oh, sure, take them to the dairy farms…)
posted by clew at 9:30 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
(The other bit that sticks in my head is that people happily took in tuberculosis patients. Oh, sure, take them to the dairy farms…)
posted by clew at 9:30 AM on April 4 [3 favorites]
I should have said illegal at the price point of AirBnB. To take the example of a two bedroom with kitchen. That room is going to cost at least 2.5-3x what a two queen single room plus bath is going to cost on building frontage alone because each bedroom needs a window and the vast majority of people aren't going to rent a hotel room where the only windows are in the bedrooms.
Putting even a two burner induction cook top in the suite will increase power requirements by 50% (most hotel rooms have a single circuit for the microwave/coffee maker and another for everything else; the hot plate will add another circuit)1. It increases the wet fixture count by 30%. It doubles make up air requirements for the kitchen ventilation verses only a bathroom fan. And it increases turn over cleaning costs because a kitchen counter gets food splatter and becomes greasy.
Really if a regular hotel room costs $200 a night $500 a night for a two bedroom with kitchen is a bargain.
[1] That's a minimum. When you let people cook in rooms you have to be prepared for them to bring their own rice cookers, bread makers, dim sum steamers, electric frying pans, slow cookers, panini presses, blenders, insta pots, sous vid elements, air fryers, expresso machine or deep fryers to name a few, These are the things I've personally seen in hotel rooms that did not allow cooking, I can't imagine what people would bring to a full fledged kitchen. (I see them because I get called to reset the general purpose circuits guests have plugged their high draw small appliances into). Preparation that entails heat resistant surfaces and sufficient circuits (IE: at least one additional).
New build single-family homes (maybe in Canada, not in the US) are not required to be ADA complaint either, but they should be
I agree to a limited degree but they aren't and we hold short term rental business to a higher standard.
The fire suppression in a small residential building even where required by law is nothing like what is in a commercial hotel.
Anyways I'm not wanting to defend late stage capitalism as it is expressed in legal short term rentals. Just make clear that the reason AirBnB can deliver a cheaper product in "better" (for guests) locations is because of their flagrant disregard for safety, infrastructure and zoning codes that externalize significant costs and risks to guests, surrounding residents and municipalities while also contributing to the fucked housing markets in Canada and the US. AirBnB doesn't even have the fig leaf of wanting to drive change by a reduction in regulation. Their whole business model depends on the status quo. They want their competitors to incur the costs of regulation while they profit off an illegal service.
posted by Mitheral at 9:35 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
Putting even a two burner induction cook top in the suite will increase power requirements by 50% (most hotel rooms have a single circuit for the microwave/coffee maker and another for everything else; the hot plate will add another circuit)1. It increases the wet fixture count by 30%. It doubles make up air requirements for the kitchen ventilation verses only a bathroom fan. And it increases turn over cleaning costs because a kitchen counter gets food splatter and becomes greasy.
Really if a regular hotel room costs $200 a night $500 a night for a two bedroom with kitchen is a bargain.
[1] That's a minimum. When you let people cook in rooms you have to be prepared for them to bring their own rice cookers, bread makers, dim sum steamers, electric frying pans, slow cookers, panini presses, blenders, insta pots, sous vid elements, air fryers, expresso machine or deep fryers to name a few, These are the things I've personally seen in hotel rooms that did not allow cooking, I can't imagine what people would bring to a full fledged kitchen. (I see them because I get called to reset the general purpose circuits guests have plugged their high draw small appliances into). Preparation that entails heat resistant surfaces and sufficient circuits (IE: at least one additional).
New build single-family homes (maybe in Canada, not in the US) are not required to be ADA complaint either, but they should be
I agree to a limited degree but they aren't and we hold short term rental business to a higher standard.
The fire suppression in a small residential building even where required by law is nothing like what is in a commercial hotel.
Anyways I'm not wanting to defend late stage capitalism as it is expressed in legal short term rentals. Just make clear that the reason AirBnB can deliver a cheaper product in "better" (for guests) locations is because of their flagrant disregard for safety, infrastructure and zoning codes that externalize significant costs and risks to guests, surrounding residents and municipalities while also contributing to the fucked housing markets in Canada and the US. AirBnB doesn't even have the fig leaf of wanting to drive change by a reduction in regulation. Their whole business model depends on the status quo. They want their competitors to incur the costs of regulation while they profit off an illegal service.
posted by Mitheral at 9:35 AM on April 4 [6 favorites]
the vast majority of people aren't going to rent a hotel room where the only windows are in the bedrooms.
Uh, why not? Seems like the most reasonable solution; two small bed-only rooms with small windows and a larger cooking/living area with attached bathroom with none. Why do you need a window in the cooking/living area? The point of bedroom windows is to escape fire when you’re sleeping, right?
posted by corb at 10:21 AM on April 4
Uh, why not? Seems like the most reasonable solution; two small bed-only rooms with small windows and a larger cooking/living area with attached bathroom with none. Why do you need a window in the cooking/living area? The point of bedroom windows is to escape fire when you’re sleeping, right?
posted by corb at 10:21 AM on April 4
Zoning regulations contributed to killing off lodging houses, also.
In an ideal world, it would be nice to be able to have the benefits one gets from renting an AirBnB. But with the current situation, those who would want to provide similar services while complying with all the rules would get killed off by competition that doesn't have to pay those costs. We can't get alternatives without creating a fair playing field.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:07 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
In an ideal world, it would be nice to be able to have the benefits one gets from renting an AirBnB. But with the current situation, those who would want to provide similar services while complying with all the rules would get killed off by competition that doesn't have to pay those costs. We can't get alternatives without creating a fair playing field.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:07 PM on April 4 [3 favorites]
California is the only US state that requires new build single-family homes to have fire suppression systems, but I believe you can get out of it pretty easily there. Most other states only require fire suppression systems for houses that surpass 3000-4000 sq ft and larger.
I have several friends who are firefighters, and they all want these laws changed. McMansions are death traps to the people who live there and the firefighters who have to try to save them when they burn, exactly the same way that illegally subdivided AirBnBs like those in the FPP article are. Big buildings need fire suppression, regardless of their use.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:44 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
I have several friends who are firefighters, and they all want these laws changed. McMansions are death traps to the people who live there and the firefighters who have to try to save them when they burn, exactly the same way that illegally subdivided AirBnBs like those in the FPP article are. Big buildings need fire suppression, regardless of their use.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:44 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
« Older Liberation from fear is possible through the... | The End of the Road: John Barth dies at 93 Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
tldr; fuck AirBnB, I'll never use it again
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:11 AM on April 3 [45 favorites]