Six months and counting
April 13, 2024 9:25 AM Subscribe

Gaza in a Million Pieces - Arwa Damon, founder and president of the charity INARA, writes for New Lines Magazine of her observations now that she's able to enter Gaza || Le Monde: Despite promises, Israel still restricts aid to Gaza (ungated) || Washington Post: Crutches and chocolate croissants: Gaza aid items Israel has rejected (ungated) || New Yorker (Isaac Chotiner interview with Yuval Abraham): Inside Israel’s Bombing Campaign in Gaza || Haaretz: Israel Has Declared Record Amount of West Bank Land as State-owned in 2024 || Mondoweiss: ‘Come out, you animals’: how the massacre at al-Shifa Hospital happened || Sydney Morning Herald (12 April): Australian former reporter, now aid worker, shot at in Gaza

This is a fresh thread regarding Palestine and Israel.
(Apologies for the brief post - I'm not actually at home, and it looks like I've just missed the cutoff for posting a bridge link in the previous serial post; there are other more specific posts, the current active one being on the Lavender AI, iirc)

posted by cendawanita (388 comments total) 33 users marked this as a favorite

My heart just hurts all the time reading about this.

A bunch of West Bank "settlers" murdered a Palestinian and injured several others while looking for a missing Israeli teen.

Israelis are degrading themselves and their culture in a way that will take generations under favorable conditions to repair.
posted by praemunire at 9:43 AM on April 13 [24 favorites]

Iran seizing a ship felt like the lamest possible response...but maybe that's a good thing.
posted by mittens at 10:05 AM on April 13 [1 favorite]

This question has been asked multiple times right here in MetaFilter: "Is Israel not allowed to defend itself? Does Israel not have a right to existence?" and giving the most charitable space for this question possible, I would like the people asking it to tell me how this will make the world safer for Israelis. How will this make the world a better place for Jewish people. Is the fact of Israel's existence as a political and legal entity made more secure now, than e.g. 2 years ago? 10 years ago?

Senseless doesn't capture this, adequately.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:09 AM on April 13 [23 favorites]

Depends on whether Hamas remains in charge, or whether a different Palestinian organization with different priorities ends up in power, permitting Gaza to develop a civil society.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 10:19 AM on April 13 [3 favorites]

USAID Mourns the Loss of a USAID Staff Member (usaid.gov):

USAID is devastated to learn that a staff member of our USAID/West Bank and Gaza Mission was killed on Friday in Jaffa, Israel. He was a dedicated member of our team for more than two decades, and our thoughts are with his family, friends, and colleagues. We are working with the U.S. Embassy to ascertain further details about this fatal incident and how it will be investigated.

Note the phrasing: "was killed on Friday in Jaffa, Israel"

The video of his execution by an Israeli police officer on twitter (Laleh Khalili):

9 shots. For a USAID worker who stopped to help a person inhyred in a car accident and got into an argument with the Israeli policeman. Then Samantha Power issues a non-statement of "thoughts and prayers" for their murdered employee of 20 years.

But Hamas, right?
posted by kmt at 10:32 AM on April 13 [20 favorites]

Hamas was never the major impediment to stability and security for Gaza. The undermining of any governmental authority to rival Hamas was an explicit part of Netanyahu's policy, and the years of blockades, bombing, and travel restrictions in Gaza weren't carried out by Hamas.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:53 AM on April 13 [29 favorites]

My heart just hurts all the time reading about this.

A bunch of West Bank "settlers" murdered a Palestinian and injured several others while looking for a missing Israeli teen.

The update to that story is also really sad, with the body of the 14 year old having been found.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:19 AM on April 13 [3 favorites]

The undermining of any governmental authority to rival Hamas was an explicit part of Netanyahu's policy

It's a policy that precedes Netanyahu, even. Going back to the 70s, there is solid documentation of Israeli policymakers seeking to elevate Hamas and its progenitor organizations as an alternative and rival to the Palestinian Authority-- Israeli security agencies funneled funds and resources to Hamas, and used media and information to undermine the PA and diminish its credibility with Palestinians. Israel perceived Hamas to be more easily controlled and less ambitious than the PA; its policymakers had gotten so used to thinking of the PA as "the enemy" that pretty much anybody that could be built into a viable rival was worth investing in. It was a myopic policy whose consequences have played out time and time again in the decades since, probably never more tragically for Israeli civilians than on October 7th 2023.

So yeah, the implication that if not for Hamas Gaza would have a vibrant civil society badly, badly obfuscates Israel's deliberate actions to prevent the emergence of a civil society in Gaza. Aside from propping up Hamas and paving the way for the organization's seizure of power back in 2006, Israel restricted trade into Palestine in order to force Palestinian reliance on Israel, trapped large segments of the Palestinian population in poverty with minimal prospects for upward mobility, and imposed stifling restrictions on the ability of Palestinians to move freely, to work, even to receive medical care. Hamas is a terrorist, oppressive organization that abuses Palestinians and Israelis alike, I'd like to see their entire leadership from Ismail Haniyeh and Yahya Sinwar down put in front of a tribunal for their crimes, but they neither emerged from, nor do they exist in, a vacuum. Israeli policies directly and deliberately contributed to, laid the foundation for, facilitated the rise to power of Hamas, and if we fail to talk about that (or worse, respond to that discussion with accusations of Hamas sympathy or antisemitism) how are we ever going to get to a real, lasting, sustainable peace?
posted by Method Man at 11:21 AM on April 13 [30 favorites]

>Going back to the 70s, there is solid documentation of Israeli policymakers seeking to elevate Hamas and its progenitor organizations as an alternative and rival to the Palestinian Authority

Not as an alternative to the Palestinian Authority, as an alternative to the PLO, which was at war with Israel. This obviously turned out to be a mistake, but at that time the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas was promoting civil society, relief work, etc. Netanyahu can fairly be accused of cynically propping up Hamas to benefit his own career. Assistance to Hamas before him was much better intentioned if no less disastrous.
posted by Easy problem of consciousness at 11:31 AM on April 13 [7 favorites]

This is horrible for all the innocent children and others who have died and continue to die each day and night. Not to mention the starvation. I am not excluding civilian Israelis who have died in this radioactive disaster. Then there are The Rapture contingent who are waiting for the whole damn world to go up in flames.
posted by DJZouke at 11:59 AM on April 13 [1 favorite]

The update to that story is also really sad, with the body of the 14 year old having been found.

Absolutely. But you build a culture where armed civilians feel (and, frankly, are) licensed to go on killing and burning sprees against the local minority every time something like this happens, it takes a goddamned long time to heal. We aren't over Jim Crow yet ourselves; the corruption still festers in our bones.

This wasn't cops looking for the (purported, I don't know if the circumstances have been made clear yet) kidnap victim and getting into a firefight, where there's at least some chance the death might have been justifiable. Just people killing their neighbors in alleged obedience to their god as if it were still 500 BC.
posted by praemunire at 12:15 PM on April 13 [18 favorites]

The ship Iran seized was the MSC Aries owned by Zodiac Maritime which has a dodgy history of Israeli Intelligence operations. More via X
posted by adamvasco at 12:21 PM on April 13 [7 favorites]

NYT editorial, "Military Aid to Israel Cannot Be Unconditional" (gift link)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:44 PM on April 13 [5 favorites]

This is horrible for all the innocent children and others who have died and continue to die each day and night.

I know you probably didn't intend this effect but I'm really trying to resist this framing and this language because it acts as though the dead just dropped dead of a natural disaster that couldn't be helped.. It's how mainstream Western media has consistently framed the genocide (while the Hamas murder of Israelis is always described as heinous and barbaric and their actions always framed as active).

They didn't just die. They were killed by Israel. Not naming the murderer gives them a pass.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:59 PM on April 13 [25 favorites]

Iran seizing a ship felt like the lamest possible response...but maybe that's a good thing.

Unfortunately it seems they didn't stop there: Iran launches drones from Iran headed for Israel (bne Intellinews)
posted by kmt at 1:43 PM on April 13 [4 favorites]

It’s like the Israeli government and military leadership took some Elie Wiesel off the shelf, gave it half a read then tossed it across the room saying, “Nah, this only applies to white people. Let’s get to the unjustified and ultimately counter-productive revenge-killing, boys. We’ll feel better when the voters feel better!”

No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgments are wrong. Only racists make them.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 2:23 PM on April 13 [7 favorites]

"this only applies to white people"

Your occasional reminder that most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi and about as "white" or non-white as their neighbours, Palestinians are sometimes blonde etc, and Nazi race science explicitly others Jews as not like other Europeans. It would be really great to not yet again apply US racial categories universally.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:23 PM on April 13 [12 favorites]

Your occasional reminder that most Israeli Jews are Mizrahi and about as "white" or non-white as their neighbours, Palestinians are sometimes blonde etc, and Nazi race science explicitly others Jews as not like other Europeans. It

Oh for God’s sake, race has very little to do with literal skin color. Race is about power and positionality—and in this case, relationships with colonialism and the West. And if you don’t think that white Americans generally perceive Israelis as ‘whiter’ than Palestinians, I don’t know what to tell you.

Also it has not escaped my notice that every person I’ve ever known to pop up with this helpful reminder that Israelis are oppressed POC too is themselves white. And completely lacking any sense of nuance or appreciation of history when discussing race and what it actually means in the world.

Would you prefer global South and North? Because Israelis fall on one side of that line and Palestinians on another, regardless of their pigmentation or where their grandparents lived.

It’s why I feel such tremendous appreciation for the Irish, the only Global North country to have displayed consistent solidarity with Palestine—perhaps because they, for very good reasons, understand race is more than just what color you turn in the sun.
posted by lizard2590 at 4:51 PM on April 13 [34 favorites]

It's frightening and alarming how quickly "Never again" can turn into just plain "Again".
posted by euphorb at 5:22 PM on April 13 [13 favorites]

I'm not sure Easy problem of consciousness's comment needs any engagement. The comment serves to illustrate a type of thinking, I'm just not sure the content of the thought (such as it is) merits a response.

And this is why Jews are leaving Metafilter. As though "a government that doesn't want the elimination of the state of Israel" is somehow not germaine to the discussion.
posted by rouftop at 6:08 PM on April 13 [3 favorites]

I want Israel to stop existing(just as Canada should stop existing), will you kill me too?
posted by Yowser at 6:39 PM on April 13 [3 favorites]

Here's my problem these days with trying to engage with the argument that any kind of conversation about what the Palestinians have had to endure is automatically or reflexively a question of Israel's right to exist, and I really want proponents of maintaining this position to grapple honestly: isn't this a kind of projection, an admission that there is a type of Israel that cannot exist without decimating the inhabitants of the lands being claimed? What is it that is fundamentally an inalienable right? It's that sort of position that gives credence to analyses that've observed there is tragedy of Israel's founding in that it arrived too late in world history, and once again indicates a continuation of the elevation of the Holocaust as a genocide worth remembering simply because it happened to Europeans (worth remembering that it was the Armenians who unfortunately faced a destruction that moved Raphael Lemkin to advocate it as a crime against humanity) and with that, the reparations as it were in fact has been read as (just like with Liberia - indicating if there is whiteness it's proximity to European civilization) well, you too, can have some colonialism as a treat.

Why is that? Why must any conversation about Israel's current misdeeds be a referendum on Israel's existence? Is it an acknowledgement that its founding itself is a crime?

Because then we get into the weeds of history, an area of great comfort for such proponents because the familiarity that the only interlocutors that matter are westerners, they can then lobby the historical pasts of other settler colonial states as whataboutism. But the process of decolonisation while imperfect (and postcolonial states are arguably a descendant of imperial politics, just like Israel) has now produced other people worth talking to. But the proponents aren't prepared, aren't able to engage, and so resort to antisemitism accusations, just like my own ethnofascist politicians who point to legitimate Islamophobia elsewhere to justify their own political misdeeds back home, the incitement to violence, the land grabs.

Israel isn't special from my pov. I understand why there's a stubbornness otherwise. I disregard it.
posted by cendawanita at 7:08 PM on April 13 [36 favorites]

>> It would be really great to not yet again apply US racial categories universally.

But it's highly relevant. I'll admit my earlier comment was poorly constructed (it hinged far too much on the lift I'd hope was bestow on the first two words). But, though as I have as much respect for the Israeli power apparatus as I do for Germany's in the late 30's, I have to give them their due. They're portraits of evil but no dummies; no question their calculations factored in the guarantee that American racism -- completely ignorant of the demographic and racial realities of the peoples of Israel and Palestine -- would bring them essential support politically and militarily. I'd bet some high-nineties percent of Fox News watchers, and a lesser but still very significant portion of the rest of the populace, think that Israelis are as white as the fair-skinned, practically-blonde Jesus of Nazareth whose supposed likeness adorns the walls of any Christian church in the country, and likewise believe Palestinians look like relatives of that no-good Barack HUSSEIN Obama (good lord I shouldn't have to clarify right now that the preceding statement reflects not MY beliefs, but, doing it just in case). And that's a powerful foundation upon which the American arms industry, that Israel has long relied upon and needs now more than ever, has built its success. The Israeli leadership knew all this when they turned up the Palestinian-obliteration machine -- the Final Solution to the problem of Hamas -- the Americans will have our back, just like the world had their when they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Just like my fellow Americans bulldozing over Iraqis, Israel's success in perpetrating the decimation of a people won't happen without Racism, if not at the wheel then sitting in the front seat.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 7:45 PM on April 13 [4 favorites]

"a government that doesn't want the elimination of the state of Israel" is somehow not germaine to the discussion.

I don't see how you think slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians and destroying every last bit of civil infrastructure in sight is going to produce that, unless you believe (as I hope you do not, as I don't think most Israelis actually do) that the Palestinians in Gaza should be wiped out entirely. It seems to me that Netanyahu has just restocked the pool of next-generation Hamas.

Many of Israel's neighbors also desire its elimination. Does that justify their destruction and mass civilian killings, based, say, on the drone attacks of this evening?
posted by praemunire at 8:01 PM on April 13 [5 favorites]

And this is why Jews are leaving Metafilter. As though "a government that doesn't want the elimination of the state of Israel" is somehow not germaine to the discussion.

Why should the state of Israel, which was founded on ethnic cleansing and is presently engaged in genocide, exist at all? What right has it to? The fact that the Jewish people are victims of historical persecution doesn't give Zionists the right to inflict those horrors on another people. (Or to maintain a Jewish supremacist ethnostate that denies non-Jews equal rights, for that matter.) The idea that historical trauma conveys a perpetual shield against any and all criticism, or that the only possible reason that anyone at all could possibly criticise the actions of Israel with regard to the Palestinians is antisemitism (or the laughable idea that it's because they're influenced by Russian propaganda) is grotesque and absurd.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:36 PM on April 13 [22 favorites]

It has exactly the same right to exist as, say, the United States. Which is to say that regardless of how it was founded, it exists now and has for more than 75 years. Whatever you think should have happened a near century ago, its existence is now a fait accompli. Basically no other country has to justify its own existence in the way you are demanding and many others would fail if they did.
posted by Justinian at 9:37 PM on April 13 [11 favorites]

It has exactly the same right to exist as, say, the United States.

I don't think the United States has a right to exist, either, and I don't really think its existence as a state founded on genocide and built with slave labour is justifiable. However, unlike the USA, Israel is committing genocide right now.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:53 PM on April 13 [16 favorites]

And there you go, the trap is sprung again. Anarchists who can legitimately maintain a coherent position regarding the legitimacy of nation-states are clearly the only and favourite opposing counsel for pro-Israel (and Zionist) positions because it's a deeply unfavourable stand and can be pointed to as being unfair.

But South Africa is now known as the rainbow nation. Afro-Liberians (on paper at least) have the same political and civic rights as Americo-Liberians. For all the failure of the Voice referendum, Australia is far beyond the country of the 1950s with its White Australia policy. Do I need to remind Americans of the Civil Rights Act?

The character of a country can change. Israel won't be the first ethnonationalist state that has to be dragged kicking and screaming into something resembling an actual democracy. Or else sure, I'll save a seat in the 'nominally democratic functionally theocratic' club. (Surely it must be embarassing that according to a recent ranking of a democracy index, "even" Malaysia is higher along the electoral democracy tier.)
posted by cendawanita at 10:24 PM on April 13 [24 favorites]

Re: Democracy Index, I understand the Economist Intelligence Unit publishes the more prominent metric globally, at least in my circles.

29. United States
30. Israel
40. Malaysia
45. South Africa

Israel is the number 1 ranked in the Middle East by a gigantic gap, the other contenders in the region are, variously,

82. Tunisia (second best)
111. Qatar
115. Palestine
122. Jordan
127. Egypt
154. Iran
157. Syria
posted by xdvesper at 12:02 AM on April 14

Congratulations? I like how we can now move into competing indexes though.
posted by cendawanita at 12:30 AM on April 14 [9 favorites]

In any case, from our man in Tel Aviv:
Barak Ravid: This is an amazing story by @talshalev1: Ahead of a possible attack from Iran Netanyahu moved over the weekend to the house of Simon Falic in Jerusalem which according to previous reports has a fortified bunker. Falic is a U.S. billionaire, a GOP donor and the owner of Duty Free America. Netanyahu stayed at his house at the beginning of the war after rockets were fired on Jerusalem

Ori Goldberg:
1/ Israel is undergoing a live double fear attack. On the Iranian "front", full paralysis- pretty much ordered to stay at home, educational activities suspended, air force and air defense on full alert - presented as "utmost readiness to make Iran pay". As "1984" as it gets. --->

2/ In the West Bank, fear of ourselves, of who we've become. A young settler was murdered in the hills around his outpost. "In response" (as though that's a thing) settlers have begun razing nearby village, shooting and burning, and have already shot one Palestinian dead. --->

3/ IDF forces have been mobilized and the authorities have been pleading (I swear; it is humiliating) with the settlers to "calm down". A parliamentarian from the center-left tweeted that "civilian revenge" is "not the way". The state of Israel is mortified of its own sons. --->

4/ The Iranians have made it clear they have no intention of starting a war. The Gazans couldn't mount an offensive even if they wanted to. Palestinians in the West Bank are wedged tightly under the IDF/settler boot. Still, Israel is hooked on fear and is unraveling. --->

5/ We need to be restrained for our own good. Our government has imploded, generating terror (fright) against a foreign enemy while genuflecting in terror against in-house terrors. We are caught up in a whirlwind of fear, mindless, destroying ourselves in the bargain.

On racialised violence, and as always the means of colonial violence will always return home: (ToI) ‘They had hate in their eyes’ Israeli photographer beaten by settlers while documenting attack of Palestinian town

The Nation: How US Intelligence and an American Company Feed Israel’s Killing Machine in Gaza
It's about Palantir, I should share it in the Lavender AI thread, where I shared: (Time) Exclusive: Google Contract Shows Deal With Israel Defense Ministry

+972: The spiraling absurdity of Germany’s pro-Israel fanaticism. Which btw: (MEE) Germany detains Gaza surgeon Ghassan Abu Sittah and 'refuses him entry' and per Yanis Varoufakis: "Germany's Interior Ministry has issued a “Betätigungsverbot” against me, a ban on any political activity. Not just a ban on visiting Germany but also from participation via Zoom. Here is the speech whose publication caused this ban. Judge for yourselves!"
posted by cendawanita at 12:43 AM on April 14 [16 favorites]

Today's Israel is always going to exist in some form, I mean look at South Africa. White South Africans lost control of the government and their special privileges 30 years ago and they still control the economy and own most of the property.

Even if Palestinians won the right to vote and took power in the Knesset tomorrow they wouldn't be able to redistribute any of the stolen land back without triggering Cuba level sanctions at the absolute minimum.
posted by zymil at 12:46 AM on April 14 [6 favorites]

I suppose that's the plausible deniability that liberal Zionists would have liked, but in today's Israel even that is unimaginable.

Trita Parsi: There is a historical example that shows that the Iranian retaliation against Israel could perhaps have been evaded.

The US, UK, and France prevented the UN Security Council from condemning the Israeli attack on the Iranian consulate in Damascus despite it being a flagrant violation of international law. The Iranians have hinted that had the UNSC strongly condemned Israel, Iran might have refrained from retaliating against it. Most observers have dismissed the Iranian claim, assessing that Tehran would have acted anyway.

But there is a historical example involving Iran and an attack on an Iranian consulate in which the UNSC acted swiftly and prevented an Iranian retaliation.

It was September 1998. The Taliban had just taken Mazar-e Sharif in Afghanistan and attacked the Iranian consulate there, executing several Iranian diplomats. I was working for the Swedish Permanent UN Mission at the time and Sweden was not only in the UNSC, it held the presidency of the Council that month.

The Iranian demand on Sweden was clear: Although Iran had mobilized on the border to Afghanistan and was ready to attack, a strong condemnation by the UNSC and its presidency could provide Iran with a face-saving exit and the larger war could be avoided.
Sweden ensured that the attack on the consulate - a flagrant violation of the Vienna Convention - was appropriately condemned, and Iran never retaliated against the Taliban militarily, despite the Taliban's clear aggression.

In both cases, an Iranian consulate had been attacked and several Iranian officials had been killed. In both cases, Iran did not want to go to war. But in one case, the UNSC condemned the aggression and Iranian retaliation was evaded. On the other, the US, UK, and France put their support for Israel above international law and prevented the UNSC from condemning the attack, and we are now in the middle of the Iranian retaliation.

Certainly, the 1998 episode does not prove that Iran's retaliation against Israel today could have been prevented. But it does suggest that there was an opportunity to de-escalate that the US/UK/FR ignored or dismissed.

Then again, that fits perfectly with Biden's record of the past 7 months as opportunity after opportunity to de-escalate and end the war in Gaza has been actively dismissed by him.

Does that mean one can lob the tired maxim, "never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity," to Biden now?
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 AM on April 14 [12 favorites]

For all the failure of the Voice referendum, Australia is far beyond the country of the 1950s with its White Australia policy. Do I need to remind Americans of the Civil Rights Act?

“We still get all the land and wealth, we still have large swathes of minorities with no generational wealth and no prospects, we continue violating treaties we signed when we unfairly took the land, we still have police routinely violating civil rights of minorities but look at this shiny bit of paper that says we want to change! In theory at least… #rainbownation”
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:34 AM on April 14 [10 favorites]

Yep, and Israel can't even clear that bar. Embarrassing.
posted by cendawanita at 5:14 AM on April 14 [6 favorites]

Yep, and Israel can't even clear that bar. Embarrassing.

No colonial nation has ever cleared that bar. The second that South Africa decolonized the white hegemons with the wealth 1) got the fuck out and 2) tried to figure out any way to get around the capital controls to stop that illegitimate white wealth from leaving the country with the white hegemons.

I remember as a kid my grandparents talking about how their South African friends could only take "so much out at once" and that they were ever trying to figure out how to get more out.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 5:26 AM on April 14 [3 favorites]

Indeed. But people aren't actively being killed. Or rather, what conclusions should Israel draw from that analogy? Should the fact that the American 13th Amendment came to be means slavery shouldn't be abolished? Let's just leave the status as quo since after all as power persists justice will never be possible?
posted by cendawanita at 5:32 AM on April 14 [8 favorites]

Is this line of inquiry's goal to establish just how unfair it must be for Israel, to be getting this specific amount of attention and criticism? Is the point then to say, unless other countries step up then why the attention in the first place? Now that just sounds like China at the international stage when it comes to climate-related concerns, for example. Naturally no one wants to accused of having a blinkered point of view, borne out of racism, perhaps. It does feel easier to apply a historical lens when it's a straightforward white European character like Nazi Germany or even Imperial Germany when it came to their treatment of the Herero and the Nama. Since after all, despite the continued extraction of the African continent no one is seriously saying why can't we just stay with colonialism. At least that's my understanding of the argument.
posted by cendawanita at 5:40 AM on April 14 [3 favorites]

The majority of white Australians are incredibly racist, but they still can't usually get away with saying that Indigenous Australian children should all be killed out of hand and then suffer zero social or professional consequences. I certainly know I'd be fired, and quite rightly.

Let me know when Israel gets there! Maybe I'll lay off a little.
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:27 AM on April 14 [17 favorites]

I think you're possibly misreading YCPR's intent here, cendawanita, which (to me at least) seems to be less "Israel is being asked to do more than US/AU/SA, and UK/FR/DE with respect to former colonies, and that's unfair to Israel" and more "Those countries did not do enough, and now the right wing has firmly lodged itself in the way of any further reparations or protections; any proposal for how Palestinians can get their human rights and citizenship, especially within a single state that has legislative continuity with the current Israel, must be informed by the failures in those countries".
Not a very actionable concern compared to the immediate need for a ceasefire during an active, ongoing genocide, and should also be balanced with the need not to minimise the oppression prior to those changes or the work of activists who achieved those changes, but still very valid.
I think there's also some confusion in what each of you referred to as the bar that Israel is failing to clear. To me it looked like you meant "Israel does not even have a shiny bit of paper saying they want to change", YCPR seems to have been referring to something more meaningful (actual intent to change? police not violating civil rights of minorities?) when saying "No colonial nation has ever cleared that bar", since obviously that wouldn't mean the "shiny bit of paper" that they do have.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 6:49 AM on April 14 [4 favorites]

That might well be true.

What's horribly fascinating to me though is that Israel does not appear, from the outside, to even pay the lip service. I don't know that the average Israeli is more personally racist than the average Australian. What I do seem to see, is that there is no interest in Israeli society in censoring that, even just publicly.

When someone is racist in Australia, a thousand defences emerge, their background, their estimable position, they had a bad hair day, let's not ruin their lives over a little slip of the tongue, whatever. But it feels to me like most politicians, at least, feel obligated to say "obviously being racist is bad".

It seems like Israel can't be bothered with these fig leaves. Did they say Palestinians are subhuman? They were right to, their workplace supports them, there appears to be no anti-discrimination laws, no codes of conduct, and actually disagreeing makes you Hamas.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:08 AM on April 14 [16 favorites]

Yes, (white) European Australians are polite, but they've already pretty much "won" their genocidal conquest (as other Europeans have in other countries). It's easy to be righteous after the fact.

The last and only extensive contact with an Aboriginal Australian, she was practically begging for help, her partner jailed for defending his land, nobody would help them.

People know how to pay lip service, that's all well and good — but they get extremely defensive and use every law available at their disposal if white Australian privilege is challenged in the slightest.

A model for Israel? If an attempt at near total elimination of Palestine is the goal..
posted by UN at 7:24 AM on April 14 [4 favorites]

I'm not suggesting models for Israel and I don't think anyone else here is either.

I'm pushing back against the suggestion, made implicitly on Metafilter and very frequently and explicitly elsewhere, that it's not fair to criticise Israel because other countries also have racism.

If I was suggesting models for the future, it would probably be closer to de-radicalisation modules for previous Israeli citizens to learn how not be explicitly racist to their fellow Palestinian citizens.

Maybe the first module could just be "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood" and you can't pass it until you mark that as correct.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:34 AM on April 14 [13 favorites]

I think there's also some confusion in what each of you referred to as the bar that Israel is failing to clear. To me it looked like you meant "Israel does not even have a shiny bit of paper saying they want to change", YCPR seems to have been referring to something more meaningful (actual intent to change? police not violating civil rights of minorities?) when saying "No colonial nation has ever cleared that bar", since obviously that wouldn't mean the "shiny bit of paper" that they do have.

That's definitely what I meant ("shiny paper"); I'm also familiar with diversionary arguments where the fact that the progress is either arrested or not substantive or both aims to demotivate calls for change (it's not the same as the "not as bad" argument but it comes from the same habitude to normalise). Global South politics are rife with that push and pull (you *do* get people nostalgic for colonial times; eg even black South Africans have been known to be nostalgic for apartheid era, to stay with a cited country), so you may be right if I'm responding to something that looks like it but isn't it. Would welcome clarifications.

---

Itay Epshtain's thread from a day ago (threadreader):
BREAKING: #Israel's Attorney General Gali Baharav-Miara admits, in a legal opinion submitted for review by the government tomorrow (Sunday), that it has annexed the occupied West Bank (in grave breach of international law). See for details: [screenshot of Hebrew text of document] - this is in order to provide funding to a university in a settlement area that's been excluded from international academic collaboration, and down the thread he notes Israel's domestic courts rejected the law on belligerent occupation and Palestinian self-determination.
---

Younis Tirawi: Gaza |

Israeli soldier from the Givati Brigade setting fire to a Palestinian home in Gaza for fun, the video was published as part of a war diary song on YouTube.

The video was published days ago

---

Good Shepherd Collective: This morning Israeli forces announced that women and children under the age of 14 could return to their devastated communities in northern Gaza, barring men from returning. Shortly after, Israeli forces attacked those moving north. The number of injuries is not yet known.

Some Palestinian news outlet reported that Israeli forces had made this explicit announcement, but now it seems less clear whether that was the case or displaced Palestinians decided to return to their homes without any such announcement.

Either way, Israel continues to use deadly force to prevent displaced Palestinians from reaching their own homes—something it has done since its founding and will continue to do until we have decolonization.

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To the news that Israel calls for an emergency UNSC meeting, @AManInTheSun (runs decolonizepalestine.com): "Too bad they decided security council resolutions are non binding."

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Guardian: German university rescinds Jewish American’s job offer over pro-Palestinian letter

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A short retrospective link of about 3 days ago: (WaPo) Pentagon frustrated by lack of notice from Israel in Syria strike - Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has complained directly to his Israeli counterpart, officials say, the latest sign of strain between the two allies

Also same date stamp: (The Cradle) The US dangles Yemen bait, but Ansarallah doesn’t bite - The US has secretly offered a stunning array of concessions to Ansarallah to halt its naval operations in support of Gaza – to no avail.

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Speaking of Australia: (ABC) Penny Wong looks beyond the Israel-Gaza war in advancing Labor's long-held Palestinian state plans - that beauty of a headline managed to sink the key point: Speaking at the Australian National University on Tuesday evening and reading from a prepared speech, Wong said her government was contemplating recognising Palestinian statehood.

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The Independent (exclusive): [US] State department sees unprecedented flood of internal dissent memos over Gaza war - Exclusive: Eight internal dissent memos were sent by State Department staff during the first two months of the Gaza war, compared to just one sent during the first three years of the Iraq War

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AP: Palestinians returning to Khan Younis after Israeli withdrawal find an unrecognizable city; and

UN: Widespread destruction across Khan Younis as Gazans ‘struggle to survive’
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 AM on April 14 [10 favorites]

"Those countries did not do enough, and now the right wing has firmly lodged itself in the way of any further reparations or protections; any proposal for how Palestinians can get their human rights and citizenship, especially within a single state that has legislative continuity with the current Israel, must be informed by the failures in those countries".

I guess the core of the point was that even though the characters of colonial countries have changed (which is arguable at best), the original sin still remains. It was never atoned for and remains forever dyed in the wool that is the social fabric of every colonial nation and colonial master. But since the only path to true atonement for that original sin is the giving up of all the ill-gotten wealth derived from the deplorable actions of our ancestors, we continue sleepwalking through land acknowledgements and rainbow washing. We do everything but giving back what our ancestors stole, trying to comfort ourselves that because things are better now we are entitled to keep stolen wealth because it's merely some fait accompli.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:43 AM on April 14 [12 favorites]

Israel's right to exist!
Everyone picks on Israel!
Jewish MeFites are leaving the site!

am I missing anything? what else do we want to put on the Greatest Hits album

comparative judgements on the sins and culpability of other colonialist states, as interesting as that might be for some, continually distracts from the ongoing genocide happening this very moment. it has been over 100 years since the Tulsa Race Massacre. Do you suppose if it happened today we'd be saying "oh but what about the shameful record of residential schooling in Canada"

think about the period in the 1980s when enough countries finally dragged their asses into action to impose meaningful sanctions that helped end apartheid in South Africa. So yes, Israel is getting special treatment. The growing opprobrium and outrage is bubbling up, despite all the special treatment from the US, Canada, France, etc. It's just that bad, and people can't ignore it anymore, no matter what special relationships their colonial states have with Israel.

and by the way, there's a stench of the very worst kind of white liberal guilt with the way some people point to Bad Colonialism. the history of human migration is quite often a history of empire and colonialization, and after a point it's simply not enough to simply gesture at it. What are we doing now, what actions are you and I taking today, about this situation? Because shaking your finger at what happened and insinuating "we're all kind of the Baddies" is pure indulgence in the absence of positive action. And again: a distraction, in the current context.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:57 AM on April 14 [23 favorites]

.. there's a stench of the very worst kind of white liberal guilt with the way some people point to Bad Colonialism. the history of human migration is quite often a history of empire and colonialization, and after a point it's simply not enough to simply gesture at it. What are we doing now, what actions are you and I taking today, about this situation? Because shaking your finger at what happened and insinuating "we're all kind of the Baddies" is pure indulgence in the absence of positive action. And again: a distraction, in the current context.

I strongly agree with this! Most of the (online and physical) spaces I'm in that discuss and coordinate action around the genocide are more multiracial than this site seems to be and I never see this kind of endless white liberal hand-wringing over which colonizer is the worst and have we punished ourselves enough for our ancestors' sins to be allowed to criticize an ongoing genocide. And Zionists completely fucking weaponize this rhetorical tendency among white liberals, who want to be the least racist and most guilty people at all times. To me, it honestly feels like another way that white liberals try to center themselves and their guilt and their identities, rather than actually taking action to fight horrors that are currently happening.

This is not hard! You don't need to do a thorough historical accounting of every sin that the US and Australia has ever committed to oppose not just the current genocide but the brutal occupation and settler colonialism and apartheid that Israel has been culpable for throughout its history. For this purposes of this discussion, it doesn't fucking matter that the US is terrible too and the only purpose these long tangents serve is to distract from any kind of moral clarity or action.
posted by lizard2590 at 9:28 AM on April 14 [17 favorites]

I can’t recall the words used but a JVP organized protest I went to acknowledged the historical and current racism and genocide that created the city I live in as a reason to stand up for Palestinians. We aren’t free till everyone is free. If you look at the roster of organizers at most protests it’s a broad coalition and many groups whose main work may be addressing injustices not directly related to Palestine are there. But they still show up because the work is related.
posted by R343L at 9:59 AM on April 14 [5 favorites]

I can’t recall the words used but a JVP organized protest I went to acknowledged the historical and current racism and genocide that created the city I live in as a reason to stand up for Palestinians.

You are describing direct action. That's a far cry from the self-flagellation that seems to creep into these discussions and divert the focus from the genocide happening now with a sort of moral relativism of the worst kind.. It's like, colonialism exists, we are all guilty, why pick on Israel.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:20 AM on April 14 [4 favorites]

It's like, colonialism exists, we are all guilty, why pick on Israel

Whataboutism and crybullying are the standard rhetorical tools of Zionists, and that's an example of both.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:28 AM on April 14 [9 favorites]

Really, how hard is it to say “Israel is engaged in an indefensible war and should stop” without also saying “Israel should be destroyed”? If you’re going the irredentist route then obviously Israel is just going to *fight harder.* If you can’t acknowledge that Israel as a political jurisdiction will continue to exist, then you’re justifying Israel’s continuing attacks on Gaza.
posted by haptic_avenger at 11:21 AM on April 14 [1 favorite]

That seems... Like a not very politically informed take? As has been started again and again, there are lots of reasons to be against states - Israel is just the committing the actions people are protesting. As seen above - these aren't people who are totally cool with the American or Canadian states, either, often for very clear reasons.
posted by sagc at 11:27 AM on April 14 [6 favorites]

And there's a difference between acknowledging that it *will* exist, and arguing that it has an inherent right to exist as currently constituted.
posted by sagc at 11:28 AM on April 14 [9 favorites]

I do not think we should tolerate a rhetoric that says, "Israel should not exist, but it's okay that I'm saying that because I don't think the US should exist either." Because while those words are very easy to string together into something that sounds like a sentence, there's a horrible intellectual and moral vacuum at the center of it. Someone trying to make the point that Israel should not exist, because no state should exist, should require themselves to explain how might one go about dismantling a modern state in a way less harmful than the harm currently being done by that state. They should be able to explain the politics and economics of it. What are you going to replace Israel with, and how are you going to do it within the current balance of powers in the region? Because if there's no plan, then it's just spouting a science fiction idea. "I think Palestinians should each be given a personal force-field that protects them from Israeli bullets." It's pointless. Israel is a state, will remain a state for the foreseeable future, and this handwavy critique of its statehood does not help stop the genocide.
posted by mittens at 11:46 AM on April 14 [9 favorites]

Does the same apply to, say, indigenous people protesting the Canadian state, calling it founded on genocide, etc? For some people, the illegitimacy of the state is part of a wider constellation of beliefs about how they should be treated *by* that state.
posted by sagc at 11:56 AM on April 14 [10 favorites]

Really, how hard is it to say “Israel is engaged in an indefensible war and should stop” without also saying “Israel should be destroyed”?

Really sorry you're incapable of understanding the distinction between "shouldn't exist as a genocidal ethnonationalist state" and "should be destroyed" (no-one has called for the latter).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:11 PM on April 14 [9 favorites]

Sorry, I am such a fool that I have not realised that any #abolishaustralia Indigenous Activists I've protested beside wants me dead and gone. I feel such a fool to have fallen for their Egalitarian rhetoric about an "Australia" wherein we all work together to recognise the appropriate ecological capacity of the land and value all lives equally.

They must all be secretly seeking mass white genocide.
posted by Audreynachrome at 12:36 PM on April 14 [14 favorites]

Israelis are degrading themselves and their culture in a way that will take generations under favorable conditions to repair.

I would argue that the murder of the Palestinian person by Israeli settlers is not a degradation of Israeli culture but rather a perfect example of Israeli culture. To believe that there is a degradation involved here would require believing Israeli culture was ever anything but genocidal and hateful towards the indigenous people of Palestine.
posted by sotonohito at 12:44 PM on April 14 [12 favorites]

My experience is that people seldom say "Israel should stop committing genocide, and should also not exist (because states should not exist)".

Generally people say "Israel should stop committing genocide", and then a genocide apologist replies "are you saying Israel doesn't have a right to exist!?" Because at one point, that position was strongly associated with anti-Semitism, and bringing up Israel's "right to exist" was a good way of putting critics on the back foot.

I don't know if it works on other people anymore. I suspect not many of them. But it definitely doesn't work on anarchists who just tell the apologist "no state should exist, you aren't special".
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:03 PM on April 14 [10 favorites]

I will say again and my comment got deleted but here's the crux of it: Do not a give a shit if "people" are saying "Israel shouldn't exist" or "should be destroyed" etc or what have you. Who fucking cares! This is some "how dare you say ACAB, my daddy is a cop!" crybaby kabuki theater nonsense that just does not matter in any capacity and you can tell the people choosing to fixate on it are making a deliberate choice to do so for deliberate reasons. They want people to stop criticizing the thing they like, and they want to change the subject and make it sound like Israel's "destruction" is at stake. Once again: Don't care. People need to stop taking this shit seriously.

Contemporary examples of actions by China, Turkey, Azerbaijan against local ethnic minority populations do not seem to have created the same widespread public anger

Cool get back to me when America and nearly all of Congress and every President trumpets their "special relationship" with these countries and have to fund their military. Get back to me when public school teachers in Texas have to sign a creepy pledge that they won't criticize China, Turkey and Azerbaijan.
posted by windbox at 3:09 PM on April 14 [22 favorites]

I mean, if you are arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist, you’re arguing for its destruction, and hence for Israel’s persistent pursuit of this war, as well as the US’s persistent support of its ally. Not sure why this is unclear.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:14 PM on April 14 [1 favorite]

I mean, if you are arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist, you’re arguing for its destruction, and hence for Israel’s persistent pursuit of this war, as well as the US’s persistent support of its ally. Not sure why this is unclear.

Israel isn't going anywhere so maybe focus on a real problem instead of a pretend problem
posted by windbox at 3:17 PM on April 14 [18 favorites]

Contemporary examples of actions by China, Turkey, Azerbaijan against local ethnic minority populations do not seem to have created the same widespread public anger or acceptance of calls that those countries do not have a right to exist or demands that they abandon the Turkish, Chinese, etc character of their laws and culture. Nor is there this constant refrain that their existence and residency in their country is itself illegitimate.

Israel is the one actively engaged in a genocide that American liberals defend as necessary, and which we are made a party to by our government's active complicity. If Turkey were killing tens of thousands and displacing millions of Kurds over the span of a few months, and the US were funding it directly, and genocide apologists were oozing up to dehumanize the victims and defend the atrocities, you would see a great deal more anger.

If China was openly slaughtering the Uighur population, while the US sold it arms to do so, and Americans came out making partisan arguments why we should support the president's involvement in mass murder, you would see a great deal of anger.

And if you don;t see China, or Turkey, or Azerbaijan criticized by the left, or arguments they should get rid of their ethnocentric legal systems, I would suggest it is because you aren't engaging in the conversations leftists have about those places. Because I have seen every one of these places criticized for human rights abuses, both against minority populations, and political dissidents. It's just that liberals don't rush out to defend them the way they do Israel, or the US, or France when they choose to engage in atrocities.

I know the point is to argue that critics of Israel must be secret anti-Semites, but the truth is people just get really mad when you tell them to support genocide.

I mean, if you are arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist, you’re arguing for its destruction, and hence for Israel’s persistent pursuit of this war, as well as the US’s persistent support of its ally. Not sure why this is unclear.

Well, no. Israel will choose to kill rather than end its apartheid, and the US will choose to support it, but no one's criticism is forcing them to do so. That's just inane.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:21 PM on April 14 [17 favorites]

I mean, if you are arguing that Israel shouldn’t exist

As an ethnonationalist state. Nothing but bad faith arguments from Zionists. Find a new schtick, this one is old and people are onto it.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:22 PM on April 14 [8 favorites]

To demand that any statement in support of the human rights of Palestinians must come with a disclaimer asserting the right of existence of a state — Israel — that currently is violating the rights of Palestinians (and has my entire life) is to privilege a specific government — a transitory creation of a group of humans — over actual human beings. The demands for qualifiers is a way of deflecting from the core issue which is that certain people are right now today being hurt and killed. I do not concede that I have to always acknowledge that other people’s lives also matter when asserting that Palestinian lives matter. Anyone who cares about human rights already believes that and typically says so in many different ways. The demands for a qualifiers exist to de-center Palestinian lives as being worthwhile equally to all other human beings in discussions about them. It is a tactic of continuing the othering of Palestinians as not quite the same kind of human — a tactic that has been around since before the state of Israel as the othering of Arabs broadly was a favorite of many European people for centuries.
posted by R343L at 3:29 PM on April 14 [20 favorites]

Pseudonymous Cognomen! Please explain! When you say, "Why should the state of Israel, which was founded on ethnic cleansing and is presently engaged in genocide, exist at all?", I cannot find a possible reading of that sentence that suggests Israel should exist. But now you say it should only not exist as an ethnonationalist state. Are you implying Israel should, then, exist, but in some other form? (I feel like the various twists and turns of these threads has defeated my ability to read, or keep track of anyone's opinions!)
posted by mittens at 3:31 PM on April 14

There's some tiny percentage of people who are genuine committed anarchists and believe all states should be abolished (and we even have a couple here, which is great). Bringing that up as a witty response to criticisms of the notable uniqueness of the question of Israel's legitimacy has all of the persuasion of, I don't know, Trump on his worst day?

Again, the topic of Israel's "right to exist" is virtually never raised by Israel's critics. It is raised by apologists attempting to imply the critic is an anti-Semite. Israel has no more right to exist than the US, or Australia. Which is to say none at all. That doesn't mean the descendants of settlers need to be ethnically cleansed (as is obvious to anyone approaching the conversation in good faith), but it does mean there is no just society possible without fundamentally uprooting the colonial structures that robbed the native population of their autonomy and homes.

"Israel's right to exist" is a rhetorical gambit several decades past its sell by date.

You're the dude who prefers Hitler over Biden (and doubled down on that over multiple comments). Sorry, but I'm not seeing you as a particularly insightful thinker on these issues.

That is very obviously not what was said in the post you linked. There was nothing about "preferring" Hitler. The statement was an assertion of an absolute bright line the poster would not cross. Namely voting for someone actively supporting genocide. You can think that is wrong, but saying they "prefer Hitler" is actively misrepresenting the conversation.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:42 PM on April 14 [14 favorites]

You're the dude who prefers Hitler over Biden

Case in point; weaponised bad faith arguments and intentional misreadings. (I clearly said that in that instance I wouldn't vote at all because they're both genocidal pieces of shit.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:42 PM on April 14 [6 favorites]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that absolutely nobody wants to relitigate the "what if Biden were running against Hitler?" hypothetical that went so well one month ago.

I would have assumed that you'd have sufficient mental capacity to work out my meaning from context; my apologies for overestimating you.

Can you please stop insulting everybody who even sort of disagrees with you? Good lord.
posted by Method Man at 3:50 PM on April 14 [5 favorites]

(I feel like the various twists and turns of these threads has defeated my ability to read, or keep track of anyone's opinions!)

For my part:

No state (including Israel) should exist.

Even if we accept the existence of states, settler-colonialist states (including the US, Israel, Australia, Canada, etc.) should not exist and justice can only be done when the displaced populations of those places are returned their sovereignty and autonomy.

If we accept that settler states will persist, then they cannot be permitted to exist as apartheid states that do not grant full rights to all inhabitants of the territory of that state.

No resolution to these issues can rely on ethnic cleansing as a solution, and everyone has a right to live and function freely where they live, regardless of how they or their parents got there.

And most importantly, GENOCIDE CANNOT BE TOLERATED BY ANYONE FOR ANY REASON. Not China or Israel to "guarantee security", not the US to pursue its "manifest destiny", not anywhere, not ever, and justice and redress must be pursued when it has been allowed to occur.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:53 PM on April 14 [14 favorites]

If participating in genocide costs a candidate votes, the blame does not lay with the people who can't stomach voting for genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:03 PM on April 14 [8 favorites]

y'all this "legitimacy of states" thing is so fucking dumb i wish people bringing it up would either say exactly what it even means, or, alternatively, at least reheat a different expired shit sandwich from the hasbara pantry when setting out to well-actually about a manufactured famine and summary executions at hospitals. i'm not even an anarchist (i just like some of them); that isn't necessary in order to be aware that the idea of a state having some sort of inherent "legitimacy" (in what way? at an ethical level? what meaning does the assertion that a state is "legitimate" or not even have in the mouth of a normally-powerful person?) is a dumb category error (somewhat analogous to the category error inherent in, say, electoral propaganda that analogises government finances to household finances) that i can't believe anyone makes in good faith.

whether one is looking at a genuine, valid state or not is a factual question about some collection of institutions and their ability and willingness to apply coercive force of one kind or another. states are crystallised leverage, so they all fall on some sort of continuum of stateness based on that accumulated ability and willingness to make shit happen (much of which is extremely bad, much of which isn't). whether something is a real state is a factual political question, not an ethical one; what form a state ought to take, and who is entitled to participate in it and on what terms, is a different matter, and is an ethical question (partly). it's on one hand extremely disingenuous to willfully misunderstand opinions about the latter question as being calls to destroy, displace, etc. any of the peoples currently populating the territory of the state of israel.

what is a matter for ethics is mass murder, and also the equally, or even more, serious matter of wholesale destruction of the infrastructure of civilisation. the instances of most urgent priority being the presently ongoing ones. it's rude to call people stupid, so i'm not willing to entertain the idea that there's genuine confusion on this point, which is why i think that the "states' rights" distraction are not in fact the product of confusion. unfortunately, given the murder and displacement of the palestinian people and the destruction of their society taking place at this very moment, the "legitimacy of the state of israel" thing looks quite a lot like a mirror argument, unfortunately.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:10 PM on April 14 [11 favorites]

Comments removed which go against our content policy. Take a step back please and try to have a civil discussion in here. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 4:48 PM on April 14 [3 favorites]

casting vehemence as incivility but giving technically polite weaselly bad faith a pass is like the type species of the tone-policing genus but your site i guess
posted by busted_crayons at 5:13 PM on April 14 [6 favorites]

Comments removed which go against our content policy

Not all of them; nice selective enforcement of that policy you have there.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:24 PM on April 14 [3 favorites]

I have to say, the conversation has been more active that it's been since the last few rounds, even if it's back to rehashing a point people against genocide (at least on this site) weren't really making, and I wonder if it's coming down to some sense of anxiety in the face of indefensible and indelible crimes against humanity that you can't delegitimize the sources of reporting...? Something to sit with though - in the meantime good idea to contribute to the multiple gofundmes if one's moral character is at stake. You get to contribute to removing people from danger even as coincidentally you get to do your bit to clear the land.
posted by cendawanita at 5:26 PM on April 14 [6 favorites]

(which I realised, didn't occur to the people who keep doing mass reporting to take down fundraisers eg what happened to Taleed el-Sabawi, or just outright stole money from people who they approached to partner, to set up the GFMs)
posted by cendawanita at 5:30 PM on April 14 [4 favorites]

Whether you think it's the right policy or not, I think yesterday's Iran action shows exactly why Biden is acting the way he is.

A planned Israeli retaliatory strike against Iran was reportedly called off by Prime Minister Benjamin @Netanyahu following a phone call with US President Joe Biden.

We also had reporting from the beginning of the invasion of Gaza that Biden was personally responsible for preventing much more robust action against Hezbollah up in Lebanon, which also had huge potential for a widening war in the region. So it seems clear that Biden is retaining a lot of influence on Israeli actions outside the borders of Israel or the occupied territories while apparently being very frustrated about the lack of influence his support is buying him on Israeli actions inside Gaza and to some extent the West Bank.

Whether you think potentially preventing a wider regional war is worth (what many folks see as) complicity in Israeli war crimes might well be a question to which most of those same folks would answer "no" to, but based on the reporting it is the dynamic at play. Biden's team apparently thinks it is worth it and I don't believe it's because they are unaware of how strongly some people disagree.

I assume some people would also reject the premise that Biden is preventing a wider war via his influence but it's at least the reporting we currently have.
posted by Justinian at 6:06 PM on April 14 [2 favorites]

Why isn’t he preventing the narrower war with his influence though?
posted by youthenrage at 6:47 PM on April 14 [2 favorites]

Why isn’t he preventing the narrower war with his influence though?

Maybe 50% Biden not trying hard enough, 50% Bibi not giving a shit because the minute he stops he's out of a job?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:56 PM on April 14

The notion that Biden is playing some elaborate long game to influence Israeli policy seems like a real reach. A much better way of preventing a regional conflict would have been to make it clear to Israel they don't have carte blanche to commit war crimes, like blowing up an embassy in a neutral country, or genocide.

It seem far more likely he is just very on board with the genocide of Palestinians, but recognizes a wider war would be politically awkward.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:15 PM on April 14 [11 favorites]

youthenrage: The reporting (which backs up my gut feeling) is that Biden tried and failed to get Netanyahu to scale back the war in Gaza. There could be lots of reasons for that but it's not unreasonable to think that the Israelis are able to be persuaded on external stuff in ways they are not willing to be persuaded on what the perceive as internal stuff.

TMH: That's just an assumption you're making and one that conflicts with the reporting. (That Biden hasn't tried to rein in Israel in Gaza rather than the reporting which has been that he has been trying and is frustrated that it has not worked to anyone's satisfaction).
posted by Justinian at 7:19 PM on April 14

Oh, in the interest of fairness I have seen some reporting that (particularly) some folks at State think that Biden definitely leans towards the Israeli position on a personal level. But that doesn't mean he hasn't tried to use his influence to rein in their actions in Gaza. All the reporting is that he has (and has not been particularly successful). But I'm sure others have seen the same reporting about his personal attitudes.
posted by Justinian at 7:25 PM on April 14

TMH: That's just an assumption you're making and one that conflicts with the reporting. (That Biden hasn't tried to rein in Israel in Gaza rather than the reporting which has been that he has been trying and is frustrated that it has not worked to anyone's satisfaction).

He has made ineffectual gestures that no one actually thinks have any weight. He let a toothless resolution be passed in the UN and then loudly made it clear he didn't expect the Israelis to actually abide by it. He expressed disapproval of the invasion of Rafah, and has been completely ignored without consequence. His fake "hot mic" declaration that he was going to take Netanyahu to task was obviously theater.

Maybe Biden really is powerless to do anything but provide weapons to the perpetrators of an ongoing genocide in the hopes that they will maybe be slightly less murderous if he asks nicely. But it would be really nice if he tried.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:31 PM on April 14 [8 favorites]

Honestly, Israel saying they backed off for Biden serves everyone's interests. Israel avoids an escalation that doesn't provide them any real benefit without looking like they backed down from Iran. Iran gets their retaliation for the embassy bombing, so they can say they stood up to Israel without fighting a war, and Biden gets to wipe the blood off his mouth and pretend to be a peacemaker. I doubt much "convincing" was really required.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:42 PM on April 14 [3 favorites]

...that Biden definitely leans towards the Israeli position on a personal level. But that doesn't mean he hasn't tried to use his influence to rein in their actions in Gaza.

I've said before, that for me, the fact that his administration is willing to burn to the ground the point of the various international articles through the example of establishing precedent that UNSC resolutions can somehow be non-binding says it all about his "leanings". You think about what a Republican President can do with that. Think about the various American aid workers if you don't care about the civilians who've been killed and how that shifted nothing in public. Thank the Democrats for being the lesser evil until they're not.

(And if I was an American, I'd still vote for the candidate! What a poison pill!)
posted by cendawanita at 8:21 PM on April 14 [12 favorites]

The Not-So-Hidden Climate Risks for Gaza's Displaced
"Gaza is one of the world’s most densely populated places. A narrow strip of land only 141 sq. miles (365 sq. km.), it is home to 2.1 million Palestinians, 81 percent of whom are refugees. In addition to the humanitarian and political crises created by multiple years of recurring conflict, Gaza is also highly vulnerable to climate change. This includes experiencing more frequent and increased cold snaps in winter months and temperatures rising 20 percent faster than anywhere else in the world."

'As Conflict Rages On, Israel and Gaza’s Environmental Fates May Be Intertwined
Sewage from Gaza is inundating the Mediterranean Sea, and may soon flow into Israel, reports say.'

'The UN is investigating the environmental impact of the war in Gaza.'

"War Has Poisoned Gaza’s Land and Water. Peace Will Require Environmental Justice'

'Ecocide in Gaza’: does scale of environmental destruction amount to a war crime?'

IRAN’S ATTEMPT TO HIT ISRAEL WITH A RUSSIAN-STYLE STRIKE PACKAGE FAILED...FOR NOW
Apr 14, 2024 - ISW Press

wait, wait

Israel and its partners are discussing possible responses to the Iranian attack on Israel. Israeli President Isaac Herzog said that the Iranian attack was “like a declaration of war” but emphasized that Israelis “are not war seekers.”[10] Israeli War Cabinet member Benny Gantz stated that Israel would respond to the attack at a time of its choosing.

there's nothing quite limeborrowing more time on borrowed time.
posted by clavdivs at 9:20 PM on April 14 [1 favorite]

limeborrowing, see that's a good thing. we all need to be borrowing more limes and less weapons.
posted by clavdivs at 9:27 PM on April 14 [2 favorites]

Oh, in the interest of fairness I have seen some reporting that (particularly) some folks at State think that Biden definitely leans towards the Israeli position on a personal level.

This significantly understates the reporting on the intensity and long-standing nature of Biden's empathy towards Israel and commensurate lack thereof towards Palestinians.
posted by Gadarene at 10:27 PM on April 14 [10 favorites]

BBC: US tells Israel it won't join any retaliatory strikes on Iran
(Also on Axios)

Same story, multiple reports:
Diaa Mahmoud: As reported from people in Nusierat, there is a recorded voice of a woman asking for help comes from the Israeli quadcopters in Nuseirat and when people go out to follow the sound to help, the quadcopters start shooting at them.

Nour Naim: (English summary of Arabic post) 🚨HORRIBLE: Israeli quadcopters in Al Nuseirat refugee camp in central #Gaza broadcast pre-recorded voices of people and children calling for help to ambush residents and force them to leave their houses then they open fire at them !

Evil .. pure evil ‼️

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Yesh Din: (with video) During last night’s riots, settlers were caught on camera setting a vehicle on fire in Deir Dobwan, right in front of soldiers guarding them. This was filmed by the owner's security camera. As seen in the video, the soldiers don't intervene - contrary to their duty & authority:

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(This account is hit or miss and NEVER provides citations but this one is reported elsewhere I just lost those tweets) Spectator Index: ISRAEL: Ynet news reports Brigadier General Reem Aminoach, an economic advisor to the former IDF chief of staff, says that overnight's defense against Iran's attack cost between 4-5 billion shekels, equivalent to between $1 billion to $1.3 billion. - Ynet is in Hebrew and I don't speak it at all to even guess by googling so I have no links here.

Anyway, Murtaza Hussein: Assuming these costs were mostly related to Iron Dome interceptors this means that the U.S. was paying for it. This is another way in which the U.S. is critical to Israel's defense as it would otherwise be economically unsustainable.

---
Ahmed Alnaouq: I'm deeply saddened. Three days ago, I shared the link to help evacuate Zain from Gaza, only to receive the heartbreaking news today that he was killed when an airdrop aid fell on him.
(Two more boys were saved from drowning, in trying to get to the aid boxes)

---

Commenting on his appearance on MSNBC (clip), Akbar Shahid Ahmed: My clip on Samantha Power admitting famine is underway in Gaza after she was asked about a USAID doc I revealed. Key:
1) speed of the crisis is unprecedented—we don't know how bad it'll get
2) Israeli aid restrictions still severe
3) Biden's team knows what they're enabling+risks

Here's my story, with details on the devastating internal assessment on suffering among Palestinians + the toll of US-Israeli policy choices that USAID experts shared with top officials at the White House & beyond last week but aren't yet sharing publicly:
'Unprecedented In Modern History': U.S. Aid Experts Warn Gaza Likely Already Experiencing Famine
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on April 14 [7 favorites]

Re: cost of defense - Iron Dome wasn't part of that calculation. All 170 Shahed drones and 30 Paveh-351 cruise missiles were shot down by regular air defense and fighter jets within neighbouring countries before reaching Israel's border.

The 100 high speed ballistic missiles which did make it across the border were shot down by a combination of Arrow interceptors ($3.5 mil per shot) and David Sling interceptors ($1.0 mil per shot). These are far more expensive than Iron Dome interceptors ($50k per shot) because they need to be able to destroy ballistic missiles while they are in outer space before they begin their terminal trajectory. That's how they get to the $1 bil number - the 100 ballistic missiles times the cost of Arrow and David Sling interceptors, plus other costs of the air defense campaign. (The Guardian reported on that YNET source)

This is what an exo-atmospheric interception by an Arrow interceptor looks like - the explosion causes a rapidly expanding cloud of colored plasma as gases are dispersed at high speed in the near vacuum of the outer atmosphere, very similar to Space-X rockets maneuvering to return to land.

Size of an Iranian ballistic missile intercepted over the Dead Sea - it's huge.

Iron Dome was probably firing at low level targets that night as Hezbollah operatives across the border would obviously take the opportunity to fire their own rockets at the same time.

100 ballistic missiles - all nuclear capable - screaming towards your country at 3,000 miles per hour from outer space - is one of those doomsday scenarios during the Cold War that would absolutely have both the Soviet and the US leaders pressing the nuclear counterstrike button. I have to imagine that Iran knew for sure that Israel knew for sure that Iran didn't have nukes.
posted by xdvesper at 4:17 AM on April 15 [3 favorites]

I know you probably didn't intend this effect but I'm really trying to resist this framing and this language because it acts as though the dead just dropped dead of a natural disaster that couldn't be helped.. It's how mainstream Western media has consistently framed the genocide (while the Hamas murder of Israelis is always described as heinous and barbaric and their actions always framed as active).
@lizard2590 You are correct. I should have been more explicit. The innocent women, men and children are being killed by the IDF.
posted by DJZouke at 5:08 AM on April 15 [4 favorites]

Found the Ynet article in their English version (I got another set of algorithms feeding me stuff, so I wasn't even looking), which presented the same facts under this angle: Global clients flock to Israeli defense firms following Iran attack - Israel Aerospace Industry CEO Boaz Levy says staggering success in countering Iranian assault proves air defenses invaluable in quest for security
"In my previous role in the IAI, I was the program manager and chief engineer of Arrow, and I know the system intimately. The Arrow project, which began in the late 80s as a feasibility study to determine if it was possible to intercept a missile with another missile, was the first of its kind in the world and was developed in partnership with the U.S. government. This was followed by the development of Arrow 2 and Arrow 3.

"I anticipate that after the war there will be further orders for the Iron Beam system, which includes the radars that detect the missiles and the launchers. The system isn't cheap, but it's essential for those who want to defend themselves (IAI does require American approval for system sales deals).

So not necessarily Iron Dome for sure, but American partnership tends to be a generous umbrella in indicating money or technical support. Western media continues to play interference and filtration for the grandstanding Israelis conduct amongst themselves.

(I supposed can be read with this Oct 2023 Intercept piece: U.S. Quietly Expands Secret Military Base in Israel - Government documents pointing to construction at a classified U.S. base offer rare hints about a little noted U.S. military presence near Gaza.)

In any case, that is reminding me to share this report from the Tor Project (out last week): Surveillance as a Service: The Global Impact of Israeli “Defense” Technologies on Privacy and Human Rights
posted by cendawanita at 8:12 AM on April 15 [7 favorites]

Intercept: Leaked NYT Memo Tells Journalists Terms to Avoid when Reporting on Palestine

The New York Times instructed journalists covering Israel’s war on the Gaza Strip to restrict the use of the terms “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” and to “avoid” using the phrase “occupied territory” when describing Palestinian land, according to a copy of an internal memo obtained by The Intercept.

The memo also instructs reporters not to use the word Palestine “except in very rare cases” and to steer clear of the term “refugee camps” to describe areas of Gaza historically settled by internally displaced Palestinians, who fled from other parts of Palestine during previous Israeli–Arab wars. The areas are recognized by the United Nations as refugee camps and house hundreds of thousands of registered refugees.

posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:51 AM on April 15 [15 favorites]

Oh, in the interest of fairness I have seen some reporting that (particularly) some folks at State think that Biden definitely leans towards the Israeli position on a personal level. But that doesn't mean he hasn't tried to use his influence to rein in their actions in Gaza. All the reporting is that he has (and has not been particularly successful). But I'm sure others have seen the same reporting about his personal attitudes.

Thank you for your interest in fairness. Here's a report from a former State Department staffer (who is all in on the genocide in Gaza) on how Biden feels about Palestinians:

Oh, if you’re asking me: Do I think that Joe Biden has the same depth of feeling and empathy for the Palestinians of Gaza as he does for the Israelis? No, he doesn’t, nor does he convey it. I don’t think there’s any doubt about that.

From 1982:

In 1982, shortly before Reagan bluntly ordered Begin to cease his ‘holocaust’ in Lebanon, a young US senator who revered Elie Wiesel as his great teacher met the Israeli prime minister. In Begin’s own stunned account of the meeting, the senator commended the Israeli war effort and boasted that he would have gone further, even if it meant killing women and children. Begin himself was taken aback by the words of the future US president, Joe Biden. ‘No, sir,’ he insisted. ‘According to our values, it is forbidden to hurt women and children, even in war ... This is a yardstick of human civilisation, not to hurt civilians.’

And from last week, during a Ramadan meeting that included physicians who have been to Gaza:

Another doctor who attended was taken aback when she showed Biden prints of photos of malnourished children and women in Gaza — to which Biden responded that he had seen those images before. The problem, the doctor said, was that she had printed the photos from her own iPhone.

There are innumerable reports that Biden is simply uninterested in Palestinian suffering--even if that disinterest harms him politically. There are reports that he even understands what his support for Israel is costing him but just thinks it's the right thing to do because he is a Zionist and feels a strong emotional connection to the state of Israel. That is what practically every report of Biden's personal beliefs indicates. He is willing to potentially lose an election that will land us with Trump just so he can continue to live out his career-long commitment to Israel.

Take him at his word. He just doesn't care.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:17 PM on April 15 [26 favorites]

I've always admired your rhetorical strategies on this site because they're the literal embodiment of the hasbara playbook! Whataboutism (but but but what about China!), ad hominem insults, calling your critics Nazis and rapidly slinking away when confronted. It's so neat to have such a perfect demonstration.

This is the sort of dishonest and passive aggressive comment that will never get deleted, but gets people to quit the site. It's crappy.

Speaking to just this one piece: rapidly slinking away when confronted.

That's nicely passive aggressive, but there's nothing more boring than back and forths. People can be wrong, or they can be making a great response that changes your mind, but neither requires a back and forth response. You can interpret it your way, sure, but everyone following the "I must respond when people are wrong on the internet" doesn't lead to good results.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:25 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]

In 1982, shortly before Reagan bluntly ordered Begin to cease his ‘holocaust’ in Lebanon . . .

This is a story Menachem Begin (of all people!) told 40 years after the meeting occurred. I don't think it can be accepted as solid fact. At the time the NYT reported Biden was critical of Israel's West Bank settlements.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:41 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]

Only Kahanists and rightwing and religious Zionists think settlements are a great idea. Especially in the 1980s it would be a misrepresentation to say liberal Zionists won't criticize them. Even in these more right-wing times, even someone like Fania Oz-Salzberg would say they're a bad idea. "end the occupation" is a longstanding slogan which does include all these outposts.
posted by cendawanita at 4:47 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]

to use another, non-Israeli and diaspora, example, Chuck Schumer also have had words to say about the settlements. Haaretz is pretty much the pulse of liberal Zionists as well, which is how I picked up on the angle. Those settlements are pretty much the only topic, for a long time, pro-Palestinian statehood people and committed Zionists - therefore I'm not counting the tiny Israeli radical bloc - could find a common ground about. With that understanding in mind, it explains why the only "critical" move Biden took is sanctioning some settlers, something in 2020s Israel is received with much outcry, except for the liberals (of which the numbers have shrunk thus why the outcry looked huge)
posted by cendawanita at 4:55 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]

And now we're getting to the point that the mods will come in with a note, so let's get back to business: arguing about Israel rather than ourselves.
posted by cendawanita at 5:24 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]

NBP: Intercept: Leaked NYT Memo Tells Journalists Terms to Avoid when Reporting on Palestine

I have to dig up links or maybe I'm recalling my personal summary of the material I've read but this feels familiar to what's happening in Australia (what I've seen for Canada and the UK are external analysis of the coverage, with some evidence of editorial decisions when responding to inquiries but not such clear evidence like a memo).
posted by cendawanita at 5:38 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]

A few deleted. A few left standing. Reminder that this thread has an intended topic of discussion and derailing it by going back and forth with other users you don't agree with is not OK. In the future, flag and move on and do not get into it by addressing users directly. Let's keep the space welcoming and open to everyone, and remember that insulting users is against our guidelines.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 5:43 PM on April 15

I have a link request: Is there anything substantive to read about how/whether Jordan's assistance in repelling the Iranian retaliation ties in with Jordan's request that Israel extend their water deal for another year?
posted by mittens at 6:06 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]

Haven't seen that exact angle yet, but will keep an eye out!
posted by cendawanita at 6:10 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]

In 1982, shortly before Reagan bluntly ordered Begin to cease his ‘holocaust’ in Lebanon . . .

This is a story Menachem Begin (of all people!) told 40 years after the meeting occur

I've ways doubted that story. I have no doubt who the president United States favors. I think the narrative now will be shifting towards preventing a wider War which contains elements of Truth, for example, telling netanyahu not to/won't help retaliate for the big fireworks show that I ran launched. I think the only strategy was to test Israelis air defenses and to wear down the ammunition. I'm sure Joe top off their ammunition.

I pretty much addressed the Reagan magic phone call in another thread here and here.

just in case anybody questions Reagan's real motivation here's what he said months later:
"they will not take over any part of the world"
I would posit this has been part of the unofficial strategy the United States and some of its partners for nearly 50 years.

here's a nice little typo from wkar reporting on Governor Gretchen Whitmer's conversation on meet the press the other day.:

"I’m not going to weigh in where I know that a lot of these terms are used to inflame and divide us,” she said. “I’m not going to stay focused on doing, on being productive and hoping that we can have some peace very soon.”

from DN
"I am going to stay focused on ... being productive and hoping that we can have some peace very soon."

what a difference a word makes..

mittens link request:
it really doesn't spell it out but I think the writing's on the wall.
posted by clavdivs at 6:44 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]

but I found this story interesting from November 2023.
"We will not sign this agreement any longer. Can you imagine a Jordanian minister sitting next to an Israeli minister to sign a water and electricity agreement, all while Israel continues to kill children in Gaza?” asked the top diplomat of Jordan, which borders Israel to the east"

good question mittens
posted by clavdivs at 6:52 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]

Al-Jazeera (live updates): Mass graves discovered at al-Shifa Hospital and in Beit Lahiya; news broadcast version.

From the updates: Two mass graves have been discovered by Gaza’s Health Ministry and the Civil Defence Forces in the north of the Gaza Strip.

The first mass grave was discovered at al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, and the second was found in Beit Lahiya.

Al Jazeera Arabic correspondent Ismail al-Ghoul, reporting from al-Shifa Hospital, said nine bodies were found before the health officials stopped digging, fearing that they could get targeted by the Israeli drones hovering in the skies above them.

The uncovered bodies had not fully decomposed, which indicated that they had been killed recently.

Some of the people who had been killed and buried appear to have been patients at the hospital and had medical bandages and catheters attached to their bodies.

Family members of the deceased who identified the bodies confirmed that some of those killed were patients. They include an elderly man, a woman, and a man in his 20s.

Doctors and staff from the hospital said that some people were killed outside the main gate (building number 80) of the hospital. Medical staff said they witnessed killings and burials.

In Beit Lahiya, northern Gaza, another mass grave containing about 20 decomposed bodies was discovered.

Residents said the bodies belong to the Al-Assaf family, and said they were killed during an incursion by the Israeli military forces in the area four months ago.
posted by cendawanita at 7:51 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]

Heard tell about a possible in-Iran operations (in exchange it seems for an ops on Rafah) - so while I congratulate [/s] Biden on his regional policy there and anticipate a frustrating rise in support for the IRGC (who, as the Syrians have been noting as I've been noting with Israel's Lebanon strikes, apparently can do precision strikes after all), a report on The Intercept:
U.S., Not Israel, Shot Down Most Iran Drones and Missiles - American forces did most of the heavy lifting responding to Iran’s retaliation for the attack on its embassy in Damascus.

More than half of Iran’s weapons were destroyed by U.S. aircraft and missiles before they ever reached Israel. In fact, by commanding a multinational air defense operation and scrambling American fighter jets, this was a U.S. military triumph.

The extent of the U.S. military operation is unbeknownst to the American public, but the Pentagon coordinated a multination, regionwide defense extending from northern Iraq to the southern Persian Gulf on Saturday. During the operation, the U.S., U.K., France, and Jordan all shot down the majority of Iranian drones and missiles. In fact, where U.S. aircraft originated from has not been officially announced, an omission that has been repeated by the mainstream media. Additionally, the role of Saudi Arabia is unclear, both as a base for the United States and in terms of any actions by the Saudi military.

In calculating the size of Iran’s attack and the overwhelming role of the United States, U.S. military sources say that the preliminary estimate is that half of Iran’s weapons experienced technical failures of some sort.

“U.S. intelligence estimates that half of the weapons fired by Iran failed upon launch or in flight due to technical issues,” a U.S. Air Force senior officer told The Intercept. Of the remaining 160 or so, the U.S. shot down the majority, the officer said. The officer was granted anonymity to speak about sensitive operational matters.

Asked to comment on the United States shooting down half of Iran’s drones and missiles, the Israel Defense Forces and the White House National Security Council did not respond at the time of publication. The Pentagon referred The Intercept to U.S. Central Command, which pointed to a press release saying CENTCOM forces supported by U.S. European Command destroyers “successfully engaged and destroyed more than 80 one-way attack uncrewed aerial vehicles (OWA UAV) and at least six ballistic missiles intended to strike Israel from Iran and Yemen.”

(...)Israel’s statement that it shot down the majority of Iranian “cruise missiles” is probably an exaggeration. According to U.S. military sources and preliminary reporting, U.S. and allied aircraft shot down the majority of drones and cruise missiles. U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said that the Royal Air Force Typhoons intercepted “a number” of Iranian weapons over Iraqi and Syrian airspace.

The Jordanian government has also hinted that its aircraft downed some Iranian weapons. “We will intercept every drone or missile that violates Jordan’s airspace to avert any danger. Anything posing a threat to Jordan and the security of Jordanians, we will confront it with all our capabilities and resources,” Jordan’s Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi said during an interview on the Al-Mamlaka news channel.

French fighters also shot down some drones and possibly cruise missiles.

Need me a ride-or-die posse like this. A girl can do a lot of things with friends like these. In the meantime I'm left parsing political statements the way celebrity gossip ppl parse publicists.
posted by cendawanita at 8:06 PM on April 15 [9 favorites]

Not South Gaza, north: This area was "neutralized", yet Beit Hanoun is currently under siege (ground reports - the closest news I have is Al-Mayadeen). Not particularly looking to do live updates, but just noting and asking, where exactly is safe?

Mosab Abu Toha: Ok, what’s happening in Beit Hanoun, north Gaza, right now is that the Israeli tanks withdrew from the city three months ago. Displaced families slowly returned to live in school shelters, just a few hundred meters away from their bombed houses. You know we are humans, we love to be close to our homes, even if they got bombed.
Now the israeli tanks and soldiers are besieging a number of school shelters, shooting at people inside. It’s 1AM right now.

And the army cut off the telephone signal in the city.

In the meantime Younis Tirawi (apologies, no threadreader yet): 🧵 Dozens of Gaza residents reached out seeking assistance, either to leave the area or to fulfill their basic needs after the devastating war. Feeling unsure about what steps to take, I opted to select 10 families from 10 areas across Gaza, spanning from south to north

This is to ensure that your support would make a tangible difference. After verifying their details, I'll provide some info about each family (1/12)
posted by cendawanita at 8:21 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]

almayadeen is carrying that. And here.

Israeli military again tells displaced Palestinians not to return to northern Gaza.

9:46 a.m. April 15. roughly 9 hours before the 7:00 time stamp for the 1:00 a.m. time frame from Mosab Abu Toha.

April is the cruelest month indeed. if Eliot were alive today, he'd just be trying to sell us something. they're all cruel months now.

I'm going to say maybe what some of our thinking is Israel should do nothing in retaliation of course I don't know if anybody died from these attacks but their best option is to do nothing and that is not weakness or strength it's just plain freaking advice as Israel is militarily strong their politically weak. the problem with Iran's response is it's more of a demonstration than an actual, actual warning or retaliation.
posted by clavdivs at 10:11 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]

Checking in on Younis Tirawi's account and... It's been six months plus. What kind of opsec is this? Still, what's galling is that it's evident for a significant proportion of people all this material isn't enough. Shudder to think if this attitude was present at institutional levels when the Abu Ghraib photos came out.

Gaza |

(machine translation) An exclusive video showing the port of Baidar, "the so-called American dock,"' as it appeared today. From one of the posts of a female soldier in the occupation army on social media. It seems that the dredging work stopped a while ago because the length of the sidewalk is still the same as it was several weeks ago. What is on the mind of the Israeli army?

---
Beit Hanoun |

It's hard to believe, but tonight I'm currently watching a live public stream from inside an Israeli tank (I am the only one watching), broadcasting the invasion into the town.

They're casually discussing their direction & movements. An undisciplined army🙄

---

🧵Susya, Hebron |

“"If there weren’t lefties, I would k*** you"

Israeli settler terrorists not only tragically indoctrinate their children for future acts of terrorism but also already employ them in terror attacks & as widespread human shields.

Here is an excerpt from today:

---

“Spit on Ahmad”. The mini-settler spits on the Palestinian. In another video he said to the locals: "Do you want to get arrested? Come and beat me! The army is with us!"

---

West Bank | Wave of Israeli settler terrorism

Israeli settlers attack Palestinian houses & cars in Brukin, west Selfit. In Masafer Yatta, south Hebron, terrorist settlers burned a car to a Palestinian.

In both cases, the illegal settlers fled back to their terror outposts

---

(11 hours ago) It appears that Moshe Sharvit, who has already been sanctioned by both the US and the UK for being involved in terrorism, was also present at the scene of the heinous terrorist attack hours ago.

Two Palestinians were murdered by his fellow terrorist settlers
posted by cendawanita at 12:52 AM on April 16 [4 favorites]

but their best option is to do nothing and that is not weakness or strength it's just plain freaking advice as Israel is militarily strong their politically weak. the problem with Iran's response is it's more of a demonstration than an actual, actual warning or retaliation

On that note, from our man in Tel Aviv: Israel vows to retaliate against Iran for missile attacks
Some Iannucci-grade material here
- Ahead of a meeting Monday with Iraq's deputy prime minister, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the U.S. is coordinating a diplomatic response to the Iranian attack intended to prevent further escalation.

- "Strength and wisdom must be the two sides of the same coin," Blinken said in what appeared to be a message for Israel.

(...) - "[Biden] is certainly not looking for a war with Iran and I am confident that Prime Minister Netanyahu is aware of the president's concerns," White House spokesman John Kirby told reporters.

The other side: Iran's Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian told U.K. Foreign Secretary David Cameron in a phone call Monday that Iran does not want escalation — but that if Israel "seeks adventure, our next response will be immediate, stronger and more extensive," Iran's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

[Wait for it]
Behind the scenes: Gallant told Austin in a phone call Sunday that Israel can't allow ballistic missiles to be launched against its territory without a response, the U.S. official and the source briefed on the call said.

- Israel won't accept an equation in which Iran responds with a direct attack every time Israel strikes targets in Syria, Gallant added.

Read that again. Just savour the tactical mind who would say that.
posted by cendawanita at 1:22 AM on April 16 [15 favorites]

The Wrap: USC Cancels Valedictorian’s Commencement Address [for pro-Palestine views] (statement from the student)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:49 AM on April 16 [10 favorites]

- Israel won't accept an equation in which Iran responds with a direct attack every time Israel strikes targets in Syria, Gallant added.

Read that again. Just savour the tactical mind who would say that.

This just highlights how stupid and dangerous the tit-for-tat dynamic is, both through proxies and directly between Israel and Iran. Everyone is thinking they are playing 4-D chess and that they are thinking three steps ahead of the others, but none of them are. The leadership on both sides feel that continuing to ratchet up tensions is strategically smart, and it certainly plays very well domestically, so they keep doing it. It honestly scares me because the risk of a major screw up is so high.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:59 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]

HEH, this just showed up on my feed: (The Cradle) EXCLUSIVE: US makes failed bid for Iran to allow 'symbolic strike' by Israel - Washington used diplomatic backchannels to ask Tehran not to retaliate to an Israeli strike, which would allow Tel Aviv to 'save face' following the massive retaliatory attack launched by Iran
An Iranian military security official has revealed exclusively to The Cradle that the US contacted the Islamic Republic, asking the nation to allow Israel "a symbolic strike to save face” following Iran's retaliatory drone and missile barrage this weekend.

“Iran has received messages from mediators to let the regime do a symbolic strike to save face and asked Iran not to retaliate,” the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, revealed to The Cradle.

I'm sorry. But. What.
posted by cendawanita at 7:31 AM on April 16 [12 favorites]

I'm sorry but this all sounds like a bunch of middle school idiots with bombs. And the middle schoolers I know are more mature.
posted by toastyk at 7:44 AM on April 16 [9 favorites]

I'm sorry but this all sounds like a bunch of middle school idiots with bombs. And the middle schoolers I know are more mature.

Calling it "middle school" is an insult to tweens everywhere, who I agree show more maturity every day. It would be funny except that real people are being hurt and killed.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:12 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]

Israel won't accept an equation in which Iran responds with a direct attack every time Israel strikes targets in Syria, Gallant added.

Iran's attack was the eye for an eye. We are now entering in the "making everyone blind" stage.
posted by charred husk at 8:35 AM on April 16 [4 favorites]

The sheer arrogance involved in insisting on an ongoing right to kill diplomats in neutral nations with impunity. It is simply deranged.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:13 AM on April 16 [11 favorites]

The sheer arrogance involved in insisting on an ongoing right to kill diplomats in neutral nations with impunity. It is simply deranged.

Syria isn't a neutral country. It is still at war with Israel and has been since 1948. A UN force -- UNDOF -- is deployed along the 1973 cease fire line. This agreement has largely deterred ground forces from attacking, but attacks by rocket, aircraft/drones, and artillery have never fully stopped and increased during the Syrian civil war. Iran's military plays an active role in Syria and is one of its major backers.

In 1983 Iran bombed the US Embassy in Lebanon. In 1992 Iran bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aries, Argentina. In 2011 the US thwarted an attempt to have the Saudi Ambassador assassinated on US soil.
posted by interogative mood at 12:59 PM on April 16 [1 favorite]

I should think Syria's relationship with Hezbollah in Lebanon weighs prominently, also.

To what extent was Iran involved in preparations leading to the Oct. 7th offensive into Israel?

The attack on the Iranian consulate in Syria didn't make a lot of sense to me initially, but if Israeli intelligence had identified key figures with involvement in planning Oct. 7th I can see why they'd hasten to send that particular message. Otherwise, it seems overly provocative.. and at a time Israel could scarcely seem more unhinged and poorly led in the eyes of many.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:20 PM on April 16

The sheer arrogance involved in insisting on an ongoing right to kill diplomats in neutral nations with impunity.

Yeah so many problems with this statement, besides the fact that Israel and Syria are currently at war, so hardly "neutral".

16 killed in the consulate annex building adjacent to the Iranian embassy -

- Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Zahedi (Quds Force commander of the IRGC)
- Deputy Brigadier General Mohammad Hadi Haji Rahimi
- 5 other Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps soldiers
- 5 Iran-backed militiamen
- 1 Hezbollah fighter
- 1 Iranian advisor
- 2 civilians

as per Wikipedia.

Zahedi

- spearheads the relationship between the IRGC and Hezbollah
- is coordinating operations against Israel in an active warzone
- Hezbollah has launched thousands of attacks against Israel in the past year
- those attacks are still ongoing

Completely valid target in my view. There is no expectation that a consulate annex building has any diplomatic protections when it is not used for consular activities but is instead used by generals and soldiers that are actively coordinating ongoing strikes against your country.

Is it an "escalation"? If you argue 6 rockets are an escalation when Hezbollah has launched - and is launching - thousands of rockets into Israel already - then yes, in a trivial sense of the word, it is an escalation.

I would even see a precision decapitation strike against the highest level of enemy leadership to cripple their offensive operations as a preferred option.
posted by xdvesper at 3:09 PM on April 16

I'm sorry, I didn't realize there was a nearly three quarters of a century old declaration of war. That totally makes the unannounced attack on an embassy normal and good.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:31 PM on April 16 [10 favorites]

Any building on embassy or consulate property is a protected part of the diplomatic mission. Israel's action unambiguously violated the Vienna Convention. And if that doesn't sway you, you might at least consider the practical argument instead: As many, many other people have pointed out all over social media, MI6 and the CIA get up to all kinds of hostile shenanigans in UK and US embassies all over the world. If the new normal is that meetings of military and/or espionage personnel make a diplomatic mission and its premises fair game for bombing, i'm not sure the global north is going to like the consequences of that.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:37 PM on April 16 [16 favorites]

In 1992 Iran bombed the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aries, Argentina.

For which crime Iran was declared a "terrorist state" by the Argentine courts. If anyone here suggested this attack was anything but an act of unjustifiable mass murder, they would be rightly judged to be a supporter of terrorism and an apologist for murderous government.

I would be delighted if Israel killing civilians on consulate grounds received the same outrage and sanction. Instead we have attempts to justify how clever it was to kill so many people in cold blood.

I suppose in an absolute sense it is better than waiting till they come home for Eid so their children can be murdered too.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:12 PM on April 16 [16 favorites]

Without assigning any particular moral value to the IRGC and knowing the incredible levels of terrible intelligence that the Israeli has (confirmed or reiterated in coded language or anonymous leaks by the Americans themselves; reported and reiterated by both independent Israeli press and those with access journalism esp with the military), this good-faith assumption--

To what extent was Iran involved in preparations leading to the Oct. 7th offensive into Israel?

The attack on the Iranian consulate in Syria didn't make a lot of sense to me initially, but if Israeli intelligence had identified key figures with involvement in planning Oct. 7th

-- at the present moment, cannot be taken seriously. If there is any agreement at all, and I'm including the ones who wants a war in the cabinet, in veiled language or direct, Iran is a long-standing enemy and this swerve is opportunistic. If it has anything to do with the flailing Gaza operations or the continuing encroachment in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, it's to serve as a distraction.
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 PM on April 16 [11 favorites]

To what extent was Iran involved in preparations leading to the Oct. 7th offensive into Israel?

Yeah, I'm with cendawanita on this one. If there was even half-assed intelligence suggested that Iran was behind the attacks specifically (vs just general Hamas support over time), it would have been trumpeted from the rooftops for months. The silence on this speaks volumes.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:27 PM on April 16 [6 favorites]

There is no expectation that a consulate annex building has any diplomatic protections

If it's a consulate annex building, it's part of the consulate, in my eyes. I don't think we'd split hairs if it was an annexe to an Australian consulate or a yank one.

Also, my understanding is that every embassy and consulate is full of military officers doing what they do, no matter what state they belong to. Also seems like shaky ground for declaring it no longer a valid consulate.

That's all of course assuming I trust Israel even slightly, when they've shown that they'll lie about just about anything.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:47 PM on April 16 [12 favorites]

Great news everybody! Congress has clarified whether "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is antisemitic!
posted by mittens at 6:17 PM on April 16 [3 favorites]

I'm struck by a line from the Trojans For Israel instagram page celebrating canceling the commencement speech at USC. They said it was antisemitic and wrong to "deny the Jewish people their right to self determination".

What, I must ask, of the Palestinian people's right to self determination?

xdvesper how many civilians can a rogue state murder in a terrorist attack on an embassy before it becomes problematic in your opinion?

Can you name the civilian workers at the US embassy to Japan you think can be killed without an attack on that embassy being a problem?
posted by sotonohito at 7:05 PM on April 16 [12 favorites]

This Le Figaro piece (in French, by Sébastien Boussois cited as a 'docteur en sciences politiques, chercheur monde arabe et géopolitique, enseignant en relations internationales à l'IHECS ( Bruxelles), collaborateur scientifique au Cnam Paris (Équipe Sécurité Défense),au Nordic Center For Conflict Transformation (NCCT Stockholm) et à l'Observatoire stratégique de Genève.') makes the claim that repeats the talking point of 99% success so then it's worth noting he's also saying that the Israeli defence IS being attributed to the Iron Dome, something the US is on the hook for: Les médias occidentaux comme les officiels se sont empressés ce matin d'affirmer que l'attaque iranienne était un échec puisque «Dôme de fer» (et sa version maritime) avait stoppé net près de 99% des missiles et drones, avec l'aide des USA, de la France et de la Grande-Bretagne..

The larger argument is if the attack is a failure, which I'll read and maybe comment here, but I am aware that if this is a distraction from Palestine then I have to keep an eye out on how much attention it's taking me.

But let me just share the cluster of articles I have open:

Foreign Policy:
America Fueled the Fire in the Middle East
Israel is in growing danger—but the responsibility lies more in Washington than in Tehran.
(By Stephen M. Walt, a columnist at Foreign Policy and the Robert and Renée Belfer professor of international relations at Harvard University)
Opens with: Iran’s decision to retaliate against an Israeli attack on its consulate in Damascus, Syria, by launching drone and missile strikes reveals just how badly the Biden administration has mishandled the Middle East. Having convinced itself on the eve of Hamas’s Oct. 7, 2023, attack against Israel that the region was “quieter than it has been for decades,” U.S. officials have since responded in ways that made a bad situation worse. The most one can say in their defense is that they have plenty of company; the Trump, Obama, Bush, and Clinton administrations mostly made a hash of things, too.
(which is the same tenor of that Le Figaro piece)

The irony that Biden's outdated Zionism (because arguably there's a Zionist position that's comfortable for America but not necessarily for me) will be what that ruins his foreign diplomacy rep isn't lost on me, someone who's been avoiding watching Zelenskyy's video asking for the same anti-missile deterrence out of secondhand embarrassment. And I'm willing to say this, because I refuse to be a stan for politicians, having to come up with conspiratheories about 10-D chess. I reserve that for my current era of accepting that I genuinely like Tom Cruise movies.

Also relevant to current tangent: Because Americans are accustomed to hearing that Iran is the embodiment of evil, some readers may be inclined to blame Tehran for all this trouble. Just last week, for example, the lead story in the New York Times announced that Iran was “flooding” the West Bank with weapons in the hopes of stirring up unrest there.

In this view, Iran is pouring gasoline on a region that is already in flames. But there’s a lot more to this story, and most of it reflects poorly on the United States.

Also FP:
Why Israel-Iran War Is a Lifeline for Netanyahu - An isolated leader who faced widespread criticism a week ago now has the backing of the West and has deflected global attention from Gaza.
(By Mairav Zonszein, the senior Israel analyst at the International Crisis Group.)
Note date re: any Oct 7 speculation - But that cautious approach appears to have gone out the window after Israel decided to kill a senior Quds Force commander inside an Iranian consular compound in Syria. It is true that Israel has targeted Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps officers in Syria before, most recently when a missile strike killed Iranian official Sayyed Razi Mousavi in Damascus on Christmas Day last year. But the fact that the April 1 strike was on the Iranian consulate—considered by Iran and others to be a violation of international treaties—was a significant escalation.

There appears to be consensus among Israeli military experts, analysts, and some former security officials that this was a miscalculation by Israel; that it saw an operational opportunity and took it without considering all the repercussions. That is certainly plausible. Israel has become accustomed to attacking Iranian military officers without being confronted with direct retaliation from Tehran.

At the same time, the strike and Iranian retaliation have had a clear upside for Israel, reducing its growing diplomatic isolation—at least from Western capitals—and offering a lifeline to Netanyahu specifically.

+972: Iran is acting more rationally than Israel — for now
Had Iran wanted to seriously escalate its conflict with Israel, its response to the Damascus embassy bombing would have looked very different.
(By 'Prof. Lior Sternfeld teaches modern Iranian history in the Department of History and the Jewish Studies Program at Penn State University. He is the author of "Between Iran and Zion: Jewish Histories of Twentieth-Century Iran."')

FWIW Katullus posted about a LRB piece by Eyal Weizmann on Germany and its genocides, and how it's obligated itself to Israel but not Namibia.
posted by cendawanita at 7:56 PM on April 16 [7 favorites]

Meanwhile Israel is quietly invading Lebanon. Not just bombing; the Golani Brigade was ambushed on the Lebanon side of the border yesterday.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:15 PM on April 16 [6 favorites]

Audreynachrome (and others): yes, an annex building is still part of the consulate. Also, the Israeli attack additionally hit a building two doors down belonging to the Canadian diplomatic mission (it's been unoccupied for a decade because of the Syrian civil war, fortunately).
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:17 PM on April 16 [7 favorites]

Back in Palestine:

Reuters: Israeli tanks push back in northern Gaza, warplanes hit Rafah, say residents
Beit Hanoun, home to 60,000 people, was one of the first areas targeted by Israel's ground offensive in Gaza last October. Heavy bombardment turned most of Beit Hanoun, once known as 'the basket of fruit' because of its orchards, into a ghost town comprising piles of rubble.

Many families who had returned to Beit Hanoun and Jabalia in recent weeks after Israeli forces withdrew, began moving out again on Tuesday because of the new raid, some residents said.

CNN: Thousands of Palestinians attempt to return home to northern Gaza, but face Israeli fire
In the video shot for CNN, an elderly woman named Um Mohammad walks along the road carrying a heavy bag on her head and two others in her arms, attempting to reach her home.

She cries and prays for God to protect them.

“I don’t know anything about my house. It’s our home and our land. The Israelis displaced us and humiliated us,” she said.

“We are tired here. We have been displaced for 191 days,” Malak Abu Nada, a woman from Jabalya, told CNN.

(...) Video shows several people with what appear to be gunshot wounds. One man is seen carrying another man who has blood streaming along his face from a head injury.

Another man is seen carrying a 5-year-old girl named Sally Abu Laila, who is bleeding from her head and surrounded by people trying to help.

Her mother Sabreen told CNN her daughter was in her arms when Israeli soldiers shot at her. They had attempted to cross into the north with Sabreen’s husband, but the soldiers turned him back, leaving her and her four children to face the journey alone.

+972: Why do Israelis feel so threatened by a ceasefire?
Halting the Gaza war means recognizing that Israel’s military goals were unrealistic — and that it cannot escape a political process with the Palestinians.
The opposition to a ceasefire may seem strange to some. Many Israelis accept the claim that Netanyahu is continuing the war to further his political and personal interests. The families of the Israeli hostages, for instance, are growing more critical of Netanyahu’s “foot-dragging” and amplifying their calls for a “deal now.”

Even within the Israeli security establishment, more people are openly saying that “eliminating Hamas” is not an achievable goal. “[T]o say that one day there will be a complete victory in Gaza — this is a complete lie,” former IDF spokesman Ronen Manelis recently said. “Israel cannot completely eliminate Hamas in an operation that lasts only a few months.”

So if the view that Netanyahu is continuing the war for personal interests is growing; if the futility of continuing the war is becoming clearer, with regard to both toppling Hamas and releasing the hostages; if it is becoming obvious that continuing the war is liable to damage relations with the United States — how can one explain the consensus in Israel around the “danger” of a ceasefire?

One explanation is the trauma inflicted by Hamas’s October 7 massacre. Many Israelis tell themselves that, as long as Hamas exists and commands popular support, there is no alternative to war. A second explanation involves Netanyahu’s undeniable rhetorical talent, which, despite his political weakness, has succeeded in instilling the slogan of “total victory” even among those who do not believe a word he speaks, and those who understand, consciously or unconsciously, that this victory is not possible.

But there is another explanation. Until October 6, the consensus among the Jewish-Israeli public was that the “Palestinian issue” should not bother them too much. October 7 shattered this myth. The “Palestinian issue” returned, in full, bloody force, to the agenda.

There were two ostensible responses to the destruction of this status quo: a political arrangement that genuinely recognized the presence of another people in this land and their right to a life of dignity and freedom, or a war of extinction against the enemy beyond the wall. The Jewish public, which never really internalized the first option, chose the second.

Truth out: Israeli Firms Are Working Overtime to Sell Stolen Palestinian Land to US Jews

The real estate events peddling land in Israeli settlements in the West Bank appear to flout US and international law.
Interesting: Gillian Stoll, a member of the New Jersey chapter of IfNotNow, who tried to register for the Teaneck, New Jersey, event on March 31, received a series of phone calls. On the first call, Stoll admits to being caught off guard by a slew of questions including the name of her temple and rabbi, his direct number as well as what the reading was at the temple that week. She gave the name of her old rabbi and temple, and the man calling seemed satisfied for the moment, offering that they had to cancel previously “because of protestors.” She then “got a second call from another not so nice guy saying he called the rabbi and he hadn’t heard of me … and asked how old I was … and if I’d been to Israel.” Stoll was also not allowed into the event.

Needless to say, I — as a secular Jew who hasn’t been to temple since about 2007 and whose most recent run-in with a rabbi involved one chanting alongside me at an anti-Zionist action — didn’t even get a phone call. And while these discriminatory practices might be necessary to avoid a bunch of anti-Zionist protestors in your midst, they are, in fact, illegal.

Congratulations to the Zionist set for practicing the same takfir behaviour Islamists use on their fellow Muslims. *gasps and boos from the crowd that I keep drawing analogies between the two camps of religious zealotry*

Guardian: ‘It’s death there’: babies and children hit hardest as famine tightens hold on Gaza

Estimated 27 children killed by famine, with fears many more will suffer lifelong effects, despite Israel’s promise of more aid
Nuzha Awad’s triplets, Malek, Khader and Moustafa, born two months before the war began when Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October, did not stop crying as she spoke to the Guardian. She fled Gaza City when food and formula for her babies began to run out; in their new home, a makeshift tent in the central town of Deir al-Balah, she is still desperately afraid for their futures.

“At this age a child should weigh 8 kilos. They weigh 2 kilos … They don’t have thighs yet. At this stage they are supposed to be crawling and preparing to walk. And now you can see the state they’re in,” she said.

“Are these the arms of an eight-month-old child? … It’s death there, death, death. Death in the literal meaning of the word.”

UN-backed food insecurity experts assessed in mid-March that famine n Gaza could set in between later that month and mid-May. Last week, Samantha Power, the head of the US humanitarian and development agency, USAid, became the first American official to confirm publicly that in some areas, famine had already taken hold.

Foreign Affairs (by Ami Ayalon, former Shin Bet): The Only Way for Israel to Truly Defeat Hamas
Why the Zionist Dream Depends on a Two-State Solution

Lawfare podcast (Apple link): Conditioning Arms to Israel with Sarah Harrison
Last week, 40 Democratic members of the House of Representatives wrote a letter to President Biden expressing concern and outrage over an Israeli airstrike that killed seven aid workers from the World Central Kitchen. The lawmakers urged the president to reconsider his recent authorization of an arms transfer package to Israel and withhold any future offensive arms transfers if the strike was found to have violated U.S. or international law. They also urged Biden to withhold arms transfers if the humanitarian situation in Gaza continues to deteriorate.
Lawfare Managing Editor Tyler McBrien sat down with Sarah Harrison, a Senior Analyst with the International Crisis Group’s U.S. program and former Associate General Counsel at the Defense Department’s Office of General Counsel, International Affairs. They talked about the laws and policies that govern U.S. security assistance, what recent reporting may or may not tell us about Israel’s law of war compliance, and the difficulty of some of these assessments. They also discussed what President Biden risks by not applying conditions on military aid abroad.

Democracy Now: “I’m Jewish, and I’ve Covered Wars. I Know War Crimes When I See Them”: Reporter Peter Maass on Gaza - this introduced me to his family's "Non-Zionism" which is that Jewish people ought to be able to reside in the holy land, but not to the extent of setting up a Jewish state.

Now with the Washington Post imprimatur: Visual Forensics
Palestinian paramedics said Israel gave them safe passage to save a 6-year-old girl in Gaza. They were all killed. (I got a gift link)
In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces said they conducted a preliminary investigation and that its forces were “not present near the vehicle or within the firing range” of the Hamada family car. Nor, they said, had they been required to provide the ambulance permission to enter the area. The State Department said it has raised the case repeatedly with the Israelis. “The Israelis told us there had, in fact, been IDF units in the area, but the IDF had no knowledge of or involvement in the type of strike described,” said spokesman Matt Miller.

A Washington Post investigation found that Israeli armored vehicles were present in the area in the afternoon, and that gunfire audible as Hind and her cousin Layan begged for help, as well as extensive damage caused to the ambulance, are consistent with Israeli weapons. The analysis is based on satellite imagery, contemporaneous dispatcher recordings, photos and videos of the aftermath, interviews with 13 dispatchers, family members and rescue workers, and more than a dozen military, satellite, munitions and audio experts who reviewed the evidence, as well as the IDF’s own statements.

PRCS as well as representatives from Euro-Med Monitor and the Civil Defense who visited the scene on Feb. 10 provided visuals to The Post, which it verified by independently confirming the location using satellite imagery, open-source maps and eyewitness interviews.

The Post’s review also found that the ambulance was discovered along a route provided by COGAT, an arm of the Israeli Defense Ministry that generally coordinates safe passage for medical vehicles with the IDF. COGAT initially referred specific questions about the ambulance to the IDF. In mid-March, Elad Goren, head of Coordination and Liaison Administration at COGAT, told The Post that the agency “coordinated everything … including the ambulance that wanted to go and find Hind,” but said he was “not aware” of the specifics. COGAT did not respond to repeated requests to clarify.

The IDF denied that any coordination had taken place, repeating its assertion that its forces were not in the area. It did not comment on two detailed timelines of the incident, or on the expert findings, provided by The Washington Post.

The Intercept: Democrats Question U.S. Claims That Israel Isn’t Violating International Law Using American Weapons

Biden campaign co-chair Rep. Veronica Escobar co-led a congressional letter questioning the administration's compliance with its own arms transfer memo.
posted by cendawanita at 9:31 PM on April 16 [14 favorites]

During one of my trips to Gaza I was told there was a taboo about even discussing emigrating / leaving Gaza. It was like announcing publicly that you were giving up and surrendering a bit more of Palestine to Israel. It is a sign of just how bad it is that people are calling their relatives in exile and begging for help to get out. Behind the scenes there are deals being worked out with a few broke countries who might be willing to take in a large number of refugees.

It is incredibly depressing. Netanyahu will get away with it. Gaza will be emptied and they'll say it was voluntary -- they totally would have rebuilt Gaza as soon as Hamas was eliminated -- but people choose to leave. The classic we killed the village to save it sir. Checks will be written to Christmas Island or wherever to take in the refugees.

The forgetfulness of western voters will allow Israel to rehabilitate itself. After all New Yorkers elected a cop as mayor in the last election and voters are seriously considering returning Trump to the White House.

I've cried every day since October 7th at the anticipation of what would be lost and it seems that we are here. The predicable outcome of Hamas' Oct 7th attack.
posted by interogative mood at 11:12 AM on April 17 [2 favorites]

I find it impossible to believe that Israel will rehabilitate itself in the eyes of American voters. I am a cynical person but I'm pretty sure my generation and younger will not forget what happened here in a hurry.

I don't think there is a direct comparison here with police violence or with Trump. Cop unions and copaganda prey on people's fears of violence and street crime. Trump has always been a popular figure with conservatives, whatever we believe about him and his popularity has never waned. But what message can the Israel lobby use now that Americans will buy?

American support of Israel was only sustained for so long because very few people (and the only ones with any power were fully aligned with the Zionist consensus) were really paying attention. Very few people cared. Now people care. And they don't see any real benefit to America's relationship with Israel but they certainly see the cost.
posted by lizard2590 at 11:30 AM on April 17 [10 favorites]

The latest Gallup poll from March says that 58% of Americans have a favorable or very favorable view of Israel, down from 68%. Only among those between 18-34 is there a net negative view of Israel only 38% have a similarly favorable views. However if you dig into the cross tabs 10% of the sample of 18-34 year olds had no opinion. The least likely to change are the 27% of 18-34 year olds who said they had a very unfavorable view of Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 11:56 AM on April 17 [1 favorite]

We can't forget Biden's (and Democratic politicians and voters) full-throated support and complicity in the ongoing genocide and ethnic cleansing. The fact that people that worked with him keep on talking about his decades-long inability to see Palestinians as humans can't just be explained away as nth-dimensional chess or being trapped by Bibi.

They have had multiple opportunities to do the right thing, and at nearly every turn have not only made the wrong decision, but the fucking gall to try and try and make their critics out to be either deluded fools or Russian agents. Any electoral responsibility for his fuck-ups rest squarely in his lap.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:13 PM on April 17 [8 favorites]

“Together We Will”…Speak the Truth. Only Then Can We “Win.”
by Joel Carmel

It was only a day or two into this war, long before the initial shock of the horrific October 7th attacks had even set in fully, that a new slogan came to symbolize the Israeli zeitgeist that would accompany this military campaign: Yachad nenatze’ach, together we will win. The slogan was, and remains, everywhere: from bumper stickers to large banners draped on buildings, residential and commercial alike; featured in every form of advertisement (I’ve seen it on a packet of frozen chicken wings); plastered on the sides of buses and trains, and so on. It’s unavoidable. Together we will win.

While international attention has focused heavily on the events as they unfold in the Gaza Strip, and rightly so, it’s worth taking a moment to consider the atmosphere on the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv too, the cities where our decision makers formulate and hand down policies and commands, which are in turn translated into the massive and devastating death toll in the Gaza Strip, just a 90-minute drive away from each. The yachad nenatze’ach culture plays its part in informing this decision making process, one that has led to the killing of at least 32,000 people – mostly civilians – in Gaza so far.

And perhaps more importantly, the flip side of yachad nenatze’ach serves as a very clear message to anyone who seeks to criticize this war: don’t. We’re all in this together; don’t ruin it for us. Those who do not conform to the militaristic fervor are seen as having effectively removed themselves from that ‘togetherness’. Questioning the goals of this war, criticizing its strategy or tactics, or making any statement that undermines the dominant narrative here, that any loss of life in Gaza is entirely the responsibility of Hamas – not to mention going all out and calling for a ceasefire: in today’s Israel these are all deeply unpopular positions and saying any of this publicly can even be dangerous.
posted by lalochezia at 12:18 PM on April 17 [5 favorites]

Leaked cables show White House opposes Palestinian statehood - AHEAD OF THE United Nations Security Council action to consider the Palestinian Authority’s application to become a full member of the international body, the United States is lobbying nations to reject such membership, hoping to avoid an overt “veto” by Washington. The lobbying effort, revealed in copies of unclassified State Department cables obtained by The Intercept, is at odds with the Biden administration’s pledge to fully support a two-state solution.

Lyz Lenz has an interview with Nada, a single mother in Gaza: A typical day in the life nowadays is full of running around to secure bare necessities. We spend most of the day filling water tanks so we'd get to use the bathroom and shower and do laundry. I've been washing clothes by hand for seven months now and it's my most hated activity during any day. It's ruined my skin and my back. I hate it.

We also need to go out and buy drinking water, which can be a hassle. We obviously don't have any form of electricity so my siblings and I cook our meals day by day because food can go bad outside fridges. We're also always stuck in a limbo of, how are we going to charge all our devices? We managed to buy a solar panel a few weeks ago and we've been using it to charge a large battery and then we charge our phone from the battery. It's an annoying process but we feel blessed to have been able to buy a solar panel in the first place. One of the things my son Majdi misses the most is being able to watch TV and have movie nights like we used to do. He keeps asking me if we can go back home so he'd get to do all the things he likes, but home is just a distant memory now.

An update on how PEN America's doing (not great) - With the PEN America Literary Awards ceremony less than two weeks away, 29 writers and translators (out of 87 nominees) have now withdrawn from consideration for 10 different awards due to what they see as PEN’s inadequate response to the unfolding genocide in Gaza. This includes 9 of the 10 nominees for the $75,000 PEN/Jean Stein Award, the most lucrative and prestigious of the five major awards. (The esteemed translator Esther Allen, who co-founded the PEN World Voices Festival in 2005, has also declined the 2024 PEN/Ralph Manheim Award for Translation.)
posted by toastyk at 1:16 PM on April 17 [8 favorites]

The lobbying effort, revealed in copies of unclassified State Department cables obtained by The Intercept, is at odds with the Biden administration’s pledge to fully support a two-state solution.

I literally do not understand. I mean, multiple administrations have worked time and again to facilitate a solution and now we're just gonna...refuse? What's the alternative? Other than more death?
posted by mittens at 1:28 PM on April 17 [1 favorite]

I think we're seeing the alternative play out right now.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:29 PM on April 17 [2 favorites]

I literally do not understand. I mean, multiple administrations have worked time and again to facilitate a solution and now we're just gonna...refuse? What's the alternative? Other than more death?

If the Intercept article is to be believed (I don't know if it is, a quick look yielded no other reporting or articles about this and I'm a little skeptical of the Intercept) the Biden administration's position is that the vote, rather than result in actual statehood or self-determination for Palestinians, would be largely symbolic, inflame tensions, produce a political backlash, and possibly cause Republicans in Congress to cut US funding to the UN, and that the best way to secure a two-state solution is through bilateral agreements between Israelis and Palestinians and not "by [UN] fiat" as one of the experts quoted in the article put it.
posted by Method Man at 1:52 PM on April 17 [1 favorite]

People can continue to believe that this is all just Biden's 200 IQ plan that us n00bs just can't understand, but it really is just pure, undiluted bigotry with these assholes:

Blinken Is Sitting on Staff Recommendations to Sanction Israeli Military Units Linked to Killings or Rapes

A special State Department panel recommended months ago that Secretary of State Antony Blinken disqualify multiple Israeli military and police units from receiving U.S. aid after reviewing allegations that they committed serious human rights abuses.

But Blinken has failed to act on the proposal in the face of growing international criticism of the Israeli military’s conduct in Gaza, according to current and former State Department officials.

The incidents under review mostly took place in the West Bank and occurred before Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel. They include reports of extrajudicial killings by the Israeli Border Police; an incident in which a battalion gagged, handcuffed and left an elderly Palestinian American man for dead; and an allegation that interrogators tortured and raped a teenager who had been accused of throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails.

Recommendations for action against Israeli units were sent to Blinken in December, according to one person familiar with the memo. “They’ve been sitting in his briefcase since then,” another official said.

IIRC they already backtracked on the whole "sanctions on murderous Israeli settlers" thing, which was just about the only good thing the administration has done in the last six months, and even that was so narrow and watered-down that it would have been useless anyway.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:08 PM on April 17 [13 favorites]

The UN story from Axios. Can someone please explain this part: The Biden administration made clear to the Palestinians that current U.S. law compels the administration to veto such a resolution or defund the UN, a U.S. official said. - what law are they referring to?

Also, WTF kind of consolation prize is this: A senior Palestinian official said the Biden administration asked whether Abbas would suspend the bid if he is invited to meet with Biden at the White House.
posted by toastyk at 3:14 PM on April 17 [6 favorites]

>I've cried every day since October 7th at the anticipation of what would be lost and it seems that we are here.

Your concern for Palestine is touching so I wanted to assure you that, while it is depressing and enraging that Israel will continue their mass murder campaign for the time being, Gaza will not be lost. Hamas has defeated Israel militarily, and Israel can't continue prosecuting the war without drawing in the United States (hence the threats to invade Lebanon and attacks on Iran). Israel seems intent on going down the Rhodesia ethnostate path of constant border wars where people with dual citizenship or means will emigrate as the violence increases and the economy deteriorates. Fewer and fewer people will move there and the population will decline to the point it won't be able to support a military or economy, and the Israeli state will be replaced by a democracy.

The horrors will continue but Gaza is going nowhere. Don't be defeatist you're just doing Israel's job for them.
posted by grigg at 5:14 PM on April 17 [5 favorites]

In the spirit of "are these people actually toddlers?", check out this article in the NYT, which reports that a) the Israeli government didn't think that Iran would consider the missile strike on the consulate and killing of a bunch of generals an escalation; b) didn't bother to notify the US until right before, via a low-level contact; and c) didn't think the Iranian response would amount to much. The layers of miscalculation and hubris are too much.

As with so much of this, it would be funny and/or completely unbelievable, except that it's really happening and people are suffering.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:14 PM on April 17 [7 favorites]

Can someone please explain this part: The Biden administration made clear to the Palestinians that current U.S. law compels the administration to veto such a resolution or defund the UN, a U.S. official said. - what law are they referring to?

I just woke up but iirc you see it in the recent spending bills that people were critical/upset about - the UNRWA one, where there's a clause that funding to the PA will be cut if there's any attempt to bring Israel to the ICC, which has been in place since 2015. And that's just part of it - recognizing Palestinian statehood is also a trigger for a funding cut.

Hold on I just googled, here's a VOA piece about it two weeks back: Under longstanding legislation by the U.S. Congress, the United States is required to cut off funding to U.N. agencies that give full membership to a Palestinian state.

The law has been applied selectively. The United States cut off funding in 2011 and later withdrew from the U.N. cultural and scientific agency UNESCO, but Biden's administration returned, saying it was better to be present.

Robert Wood, the U.S. deputy representative to the United Nations, said that recognition of a Palestinian state by the world body would mean "funding would be cut off to the U.N. system, so we're bound by U.S. law."

"Our hope is that they don't pursue that, but that's up to them," Wood said of the Palestinians' bid.

Well, can't blame Bibi for this one. It's been striking to notice the helpless language as this matter got closer and closer to the point of no return (diplomatically).
posted by cendawanita at 5:41 PM on April 17 [9 favorites]

I'm a little skeptical of the Intercept

It's always good to stay skeptical of journalism but when I read such a sophisticated position for a fact that's longstanding but apparently personally new and personally odious even if it's in character, it's just another reminder for myself that even for governments that I'm largely in agreement with can never not be morally dubious.
posted by cendawanita at 5:53 PM on April 17 [4 favorites]

Under longstanding legislation by the U.S. Congress, the United States is required to cut off funding to U.N. agencies that give full membership to a Palestinian state.

I think this is referring to a 1990 amendment to 22 USC 287e that says this:

No funds authorized to be appropriated by this Act or any other Act shall be available for the United Nations or any specialized agency thereof which accords the Palestine Liberation Organization the same standing as member states.

Note that the PLO is still the official representative of the State of Palestine at the UN.
posted by netowl at 6:12 PM on April 17 [2 favorites]

A role 'inherited' (the technical term escapes me) by the PA, and also gives just enough diplomatic word games leeway to say the law can't really be applied anymore, but it's always very important to either develop diplomatic cataracts or illiteracy if you can't justify to yourself why this party gets the letter of the law and the other one the spirit of the law.
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on April 17 [4 favorites]

The Intercept is misrepresenting a longstanding albeit somewhat questionable position of the US. There is an effort almost every year to try to get the UN to immediately recognize that an independent Palestinian State exists and admit it to the UN. The US has never supported and always opposed these efforts. That isn’t the same as supporting or opposing a two state solution as the result of a negotiated agreement between the parties. Of course these policies were put in place under different circumstances when officially the US withheld recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, did not recognize Israeli annexation claims and officially objected to settlement. Official recognition of Palestinian statehood, capitals, final borders, etc were all supposed to be incentives to get the parties to an agreement. Trump gave Netanyahu Jerusalem and recognized a bunch of settlement as legitimate. So maybe it’s time to revisit recognizing Palestine. Of course that makes a messy situation of which Palestinian government is the one who appoints the UN ambassador and a bunch of other issues.
posted by interogative mood at 7:28 PM on April 17 [2 favorites]

'Somewhat questionable' does do a lot of heavy lifting, no? At least imo anyway.

Before I forget and my browser hangs and loses my tabs again:

Guardian: Revealed: Israel has sped up settlement-building in East Jerusalem since Gaza war began
Exclusive: Government ministries and offices behind most contentious of projects, which will create thousands of housing units
The rapid approval or construction of settlements that are illegal under international law is likely to further damage Israel’s relationship with the Biden administration.

At this point I'm even willing to consider that it's a kink.

Wired: Google Workers Protest Cloud Contract With Israel's Government
Google employees are staging sit-ins and protests at company offices in New York and California over “Project Nimbus,” a cloud contract with Israel's government, as the country's war with Hamas continues - iirc they managed for about ten hours of sit-ins before the cops were called.

Rolling Stone: Wallace Shawn Narrates Ad for Coalition Opposing America’s Biggest Israel Lobby
“Reject AIPAC” is a union of more than two dozen progressive activist groups, including Justice Democrats, US Campaign for Palestinian Rights Action, Jewish Voice for Peace Action, and the IfNotNow Movement. The coalition seeks to lead “a seven-figure electoral defense campaign across paid media and field organizing efforts to defend members of Congress targeted by AIPAC,” in the face of the pro-Israel lobbying groups’ $100 million influence campaign in this year’s election.
(Though I believe the biggest on the American donor landscape are actually the Christians via CUFI)

Independent: State department sees unprecedented flood of internal dissent memos over Gaza war

Exclusive: Eight internal dissent memos were sent by State Department staff during the first two months of the Gaza war, compared to just one sent during the first three years of the Iraq War
Mitchell Reiss, a former director of the office that handled dissent memos between 2003 and 2005, the first three years of the Iraq war, said he received one such dissent memo during his tenure.

“It’s not just sort of a paper-pushing exercise. It was taken very seriously by the highest levels of the department,” Mr Reiss, who served under secretary of state Colin Powell, said.

But he cautioned that it would be impossible to know if all the memos had taken an anti-war stance without seeing them.

The most recent dissent memorandum was sent last month from the US embassy in Amman, Jordan, and focused on the destabilising effect of Israel’s actions in that country and across the region, one source said.

A memo that was leaked to Axios in November that was signed by 100 state department and USAID employees, urged for the department to reassess its policy toward Israel and demand a ceasefire in Gaza.

(...) Brian Finucane, who worked for a decade in the office of the legal adviser at the state department advising on issues related to the laws of war, arms transfers and war crimes, told The Independent that there was a huge gap between the department’s rank-and-file and the messaging coming from the White House.

“Based on my conversations since October with people at the department, there is a real disconnect between the analysis and policy recommendations of state department personnel relating to Gaza and Israel-Palestine generally and decisions ultimately being made by the White House,” he said.

Reuters: U.N. commission accuses Israel of obstructing Oct. 7 probe
U.N.-mandated commission of inquiry that probes violations of international human rights law on Tuesday accused Israel of obstructing its efforts to collect evidence from the victims of the attack by Hamas in southern Israel on Oct. 7.

"So far as the government of Israel is concerned, we have not only seen a lack of cooperation, but active obstruction of our efforts to receive evidence from Israeli witnesses and victims to the events that occurred in southern Israel," said Chris Sidoti, one of three members of a commission of inquiry into abuses committed in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

"We have contact with many, but we would like to have contact with more."
Sidoti appealed to the government of Israel, as well as victims and witnesses of the attack, to aid the commission in conducting its probe.

In response to Sidoti's comments, the Israeli diplomatic mission in Geneva said it had been carrying out its own investigation into the crimes, and that representatives of the United Nations and other institutions had been to Israel and met with survivors and victims.

Victims would "never get any justice or the dignified treatment they deserve from the Commission of Inquiry and its members", it said, describing the commission as having "a track record of anti-Semitic and anti-Israel statements".

---
Gaza Journalists: APPEAL: BOYCOTT THE WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENTS’ DINNER & STAND WITH YOUR COLLEAGUES IN GAZA

JTA: Israeli academics face backlash after signing letter accusing Israel of ‘plausible genocide’ in Gaza
--

AP (Mar 28): Doctors visiting a Gaza hospital are stunned by the war’s toll on Palestinian children

Also on Common Dreams (Apr 11): As Surgeons, We Have Never Seen Cruelty Like Israel’s Genocide in Gaza

We urge anyone who reads this to publicly oppose sending weapons to Israel as long as this onslaught continues.
As humanitarian trauma surgeons we have both seen incredible suffering. Collectively, we were present at Ground Zero on 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, the Boston Marathon bombing, and the 2010 earthquake in Haiti on the first day of these disasters. We have worked in the deprivation of southern Zimbabwe and the horrors of the war in Ukraine. Together we have worked on more than 40 surgical missions in developing countries on three continents in our combined 57 years of volunteering. This long experience taught us that there was no greater pain as a humanitarian surgeon than being unable to provide needed care to a patient.

But that was before coming to Gaza. Now we know the pain of being unable to treat a child who will slowly die, but also alone, because she is the only surviving member of an entire extended family. We have not had the heart to tell these children how their families died: burned until they resembled blistered hotdogs more than human beings, shredded to pieces such that they can only be buried in mass graves, or simply entombed in their former apartment buildings to die slowly of asphyxia and sepsis.

The United States has heavily funded and overwhelmingly armed what is called “the occupation” of Palestine, but the term is misleading. Israel’s first president, Chaim Weizmann, declared that the existence of the Palestinians was simply “a matter of no consequence.” Thirty years later, Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan told the Israeli cabinet that the Palestinians “would continue to live like dogs…and we will see where this process leads.”

Now we know: This is where it leads. It leads to Gaza European Hospital, and to two surgeons realizing that the blood on the floor of the trauma bay and the operating room is dripping from our own hands. We Americans provide the crucial funding, weapons, and diplomatic support for a genocidal assault on a helpless population.

Guardian: A WHO photographer in Gaza: ‘There’s just an overwhelming need for peace’

Chris Black, who spent more than a month documenting the situation in Gaza for the World Health Organization, talks about the trauma and destruction he witnessed
Chris Black, who recently returned after five and a half weeks in the Palestinian territory, said the most shocking moment came during a mission to a hospital.

“It was the first time I went to the Nasser hospital in Khan Younis. We were waiting there for the green light to leave and return to Rafah. There was a woman there holding a child. She kept asking: ‘Are we safe here?’ Asking over and over again. She’s in a hospital that is a protected place under international humanitarian law. I wanted to say: ‘Yes, you should be safe.’” But Black couldn’t. “I won’t forget that,” he said.

The assignment had a profound impact on Black. “I’ve been working in the humanitarian field for 30 years – conflicts, health emergencies and disasters. But this felt like a life-changing experience. If you talk to any humanitarian worker in Gaza at the moment, they will say the same.

“You don’t want to compare emergencies but this has taken to another level. I don’t usually cry but don’t think I’ve ever cried so much on a mission. We were staying in Rafah where there are incredible numbers of people and everyone you meet has a story of trauma, loss and multiple displacement. But it was when you left to travel elsewhere that you really see the destruction. I found myself doing stuff you don’t usually do as comms person, helping transfer people from ambulances. But I wanted to help.”

The conditions that Black and his colleagues saw in the Gaza hospitals they visited were horrific, including at the besieged al-Amal hospital in Khan Younis.

AOAV UK reports on:
Total civilian casualties from explosive violence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories since 07 Oct 2023*: 21, 076
– Killed: 14, 695
– Injured: 6, 381
Last updated: 11 April 2024

Telegraph:
Top IDF commander in [WCK] aid strike wanted to block humanitarian supplies into Gaza

Investigation shows officer signed a letter to Israel’s War Cabinet demanding a ‘siege’ of Gaza City
posted by cendawanita at 8:56 PM on April 17 [9 favorites]

I got many comments but nvm:
Saw a screenshot from Haaretz but ToI came up first in my search results: US agreed to Israel’s plan for Rafah in return for not carrying out large Iran strike – report

Cynically I can say that in face of abject evil any other party can promise anything knowing the basic nature of their opposing side will never consider it, but also, you can say this is a pretty reasonable offer: (MEE - and also Al-Jazeera Arabic) Turkish foreign minister says Hamas accept two-state solution [1967 borders], [proposes] dismantlement of armed wing. I'm comfortable in expecting Israel will go with the stupidest most murderous response possible. But it's still the month of Eid. Maybe miracles will happen.

Or not - The Verge: Google fires 28 employees after sit-in protest over Israel cloud contract / In an internal memo, Google warns that “if you’re one of the few who are tempted to think we’re going to overlook conduct that violates our policies, think again.”

Re: that story about Blinken sitting on pre-Oct 7 Israeli crimes with no action, Taleed El-Sabawi claims: Shout out to the career bureaucrats at the U.S. State Department who know how FOIA requests work & purposely created a paper trail for media to find so that this story could be written. ✊🏽 This is what resistance from the inside looks like and we appreciate you.

In any case, BBC: Qatar reassessing role as mediator in Gaza ceasefire talks

This Paul Biggar post has been making the rounds: Meta and Lavender
A little-discussed detail in the Lavender AI article is that Israel is killing people based on being in the same Whatsapp group [1] as a suspected militant [2]. Where are they getting this data? Is WhatsApp sharing it?

(...) One input to the AI is whether you're in a WhatsApp group with a suspected member of Hamas. There's a lot wrong with this - I'm in plenty of WhatsApp groups with strangers, neighbours, and in the carnage in Gaza you bet people are making groups to connect.

But the part I want to focus on is whether they get this information from Meta. Meta has been promoting WhatsApp as a "private" social network, including "end-to-end" encryption of messages.

Providing this data as input for Lavender undermines their claim that WhatsApp is a private messaging app. It is beyond obscene and makes Meta complicit in Israel's killings of "pre-crime" targets and their families, in violation of International Humanitarian Law and Meta's publicly stated commitment to human rights. No social network should be providing this sort of information about its users to countries engaging in "pre-crime".

It's important to note that already Meta is taking extensive part in the Israeli-led and US-backed genocide, including significant and well-reported suppression of content supporting Palestinian freedom, as well a new anti-"anti-zionist" policy that is used to shut down dissent of Israel's crimes [4].

Why is Meta doing this? Why is Meta so happy to share metadata about group membership with Israel – a run-around the idea of a "private" social network – and to be complicit in the genocide?
posted by cendawanita at 3:23 AM on April 18 [9 favorites]

Columbia University has sent a letter to NYPD asking them to clear out the pro-Palestinian student encampment, citing "safety".

Ilhan Omar's daughter has been suspended from Columbia for protesting.
posted by toastyk at 10:50 AM on April 18 [10 favorites]

The House had Columbia University President Shafik on the stand to be grilled for almost 3 hours yesterday. Seems like the timing of the letter is part of a PR plan. She doesn’t want to end up fired like Gay was at Harvard. She’s chosen to bend the knee instead of falling on her sword.
posted by interogative mood at 3:51 PM on April 18

For those who are wondering if Israel is going to escalate against Iran again, I think the answer is yes. Imagine this: you are Bibi and are, if nothing else, a shrewd politician and consummate survivor. You ran on a platform of security for Israel and 7 Oct happened on your watch. Even before that Israeli society was highly divided by your judicial reforms. The only reason you're not already out on your ass is because of the ongoing (mostly one-sided) fighting. The only way to stay in power is to deliver such a big win that it will erase the stench and shame of your failure. So, you play to win, which looks like remaking the map - I'm not well informed enough to know exactly what this entails, but it probably looks like solving the Palestinian "problem", destroying Hezbollah, and neutralizing Iran. Problem: Israel isn't powerful enough to do this by itself, so what to do? You try to drag in the USA on your side and hope their military and diplomatic heft will bail you out in the end.
posted by ndr at 6:15 PM on April 18 [3 favorites]

Narrative shift.

'Why you can't be and Iran hawk and a Russian dove.'
Apr 18, 2024 - ISW Press

"A Russian victory is an Iranian victory. Moscow and Tehran have formed a military bloc with the aim of defeating the United States and its allies in the Middle East, Europe, and around the world"

the UN today.
"Again, the United States continues to strongly support a two-state solution. This vote does not reflect opposition to Palestinian statehood, but instead is an acknowledgement that it will only come from direct negotiations between the parties."

"Navy ship underway for Gaza pier mission suffers fire, returns to US"

"Iran is likely engaging in a coordinated information effort to deter an Israeli strike targeting its nuclear facilities and reassure its domestic population about Iran’s ability to protect such facilities."
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on April 18

Breaking.

israeli missiles hit site in Iran, explosions heard in Isfahan: Report
20 minutes ago.Isfahan
posted by clavdivs at 7:33 PM on April 18

Iran AND Syria and Iraq:
i24: Simultaneous Israeli strikes on Iran, Iraq, and Syria- reports
posted by cendawanita at 8:03 PM on April 18 [3 favorites]

Isfahan is a jewel of Islamic art and architecture.
posted by interogative mood at 8:30 PM on April 18

This March FP article stays relevant: Israel Is a Strategic Liability for the United States
The special relationship does not benefit Washington and is endangering U.S. interests across the globe. (from someone at the Cato Institute fwiw - so there's that angle)
A regional war would be disastrous for the Middle East and the interests of the United States. Nor would such a war be a matter of Israel’s survival. No state—including Iran—is about to push Israel into the sea. Israel’s military superiority, nuclear arsenal, and strategic alignment with the majority of governments in the region guarantee its security against existential challenges.

Washington’s stance allows Israel to act with impunity while bending U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East in pursuit of objectives that lie well beyond Washington’s interests. U.S. interests in the region include protecting the safety and prosperity of the American people and preventing the emergence of a regional hegemon while upholding the values that the country claims to stand for. Knee-jerk support for Israel does not advance any of these.

The pathologies of the special relationship with Israel have hindered Washington’s strategic maneuverability in the Middle East and inhibited U.S. leaders’ ability to even think clearly about the region. In late 2023, for example, Biden defamed his own country when he declared that “were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe.”

This kind of thinking makes sound statecraft impossible.

Anyway (if we can say anyway):

Al-Jazeera report of the UNSC proceedings and the US veto.
Abu Amr also dismissed claims that the resolution would imperil political negotiations and prospects for peace.

“To those who say that recognising the Palestinian state must happen through negotiations and not through a UN resolution, we say: ‘How was the State of Israel established? Wasn’t that through a UN resolution, which was Resolution 181?'” Abu Amr said.

Comments of note:
Khalil Sayegh: For so long, Hamas has mobilized Palestinians with slogans like “the peaceful path has failed” and "UN can deliver nothing.” For Palestinians living under the repression of the occupation and seeing such an American vote, try not to convince them otherwise.

Peter Beinart QT: Such a crucial point. The more horrified you were by Oct 7, the greater your obligation to support Palestinian resistance to oppression that respects human dignity + intl law. Again + again, the US does the opposite. It thus makes violence, against Israelis + Palestinians, more likely

Just before the news of the military strikes, this was taking the relevant people in a tizzy: (Jpost) ICC considering issuing war crimes arrest warrants for Netanyahu, others - report

A short thread by Mark Kersten, who thinks as there's been intelligence operations on the ICC, advance news like this is not unlikely, and it's likely enough to cause ministers to meet and American backers to panic (eg I first saw it on a Tom Cotton tweet). So with that established:
Why the urgency now?

Israel has likely been distracted by the ICJ cases + the quiet operations of the ICC Prosecutor in recent weeks. If so, that is a smart play by Prosecutor Khan.

Any warrants issued need to be based on exceedingly strong evidence - trial ready, really.

(...) Reports say 🇮🇱 is actively lobbying Western states, incl ICC members 🇩🇪 +🇬🇧 .

Surely Netanyahu is relying on them acting against the Court. Not convinced they will, which is amazing.

With its support for the ICC in 🇺🇦, we'll have to wait to see likely double-speak from 🇺🇸

(...) But I highly doubt that the ICC Prosecutor will care much if states do try to interfere.

The evidence against Hamas + 🇮🇱 officials is overwhelming + exceptionally well catalogued. As the Prosecutor said: if warnings aren't heeded, offenders shouldn't be surprised w ICC action.

(...) Of course, if the ICC issues warrants, nothing will happen immediately.

The Court has no police force. It can't enforce warrants.

BUT that doesn't meant they don't matter.

For one, warrants matter politically as much as legally. The world + freedom of the accused will shrink. (...) As importantly, just because ICC warrants are not enforced does not mean they don't matter.

There is justice in the pursuit of justice and in the acknowledgement of atrocity.

Warrants for all sides will indicate the ICC believes victims and survivors. As it should.

The man with the ideas has another idea: (MEE)
Israeli minister Ben Gvir calls for execution of Palestinian prisoners to ease overcrowding -
The far-right national security minister says the death penalty is a 'partial solution' to prisons bursting with Palestinian captives
- speaking of such prisoners and recalling that article about amputations being normal: (Ramy Abdu) The Palestinian Sufian Abu Salah was arrested by the Israeli army while standing on his feet, but he left prison with only one foot due to torture and medical neglect against Palestinian prisoners. (with video)

Ok: (ToI) ‘We’re not like the Nazis’: Netanyahu reportedly bickered with German FM over ‘famine’ in Gaza
Channel 13 reports that when the Baerbock offered to show Netanyahu and Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer “photos of hungry [Gazan] children on my phone,” Netanyahu told the German official, “Come and see the pictures of the markets in Gaza, the beaches in Gaza, there’s no famine there.”

The report comes as photos circulating on social media show stocked market stalls and Gazans enjoying a hot day on the beach, after the Israel Defense Forces withdrew all of its maneuvering ground forces from the Strip two weeks ago, prompting displaced Palestinians to attempt to return to their homes.

Baerbock reportedly recommended that Israel stop circulating the photos of life supposedly returning to normal in the Palestinian enclave “as they don’t portray the real situation in Gaza. There is hunger in Gaza.”

At this point, Netanyahu is said to have raised his voice and insisted, “It’s real. It’s reality. It’s not like what the Nazis staged, we’re not like the Nazis who produced fake images of a manufactured reality.”

According to the Channel 13 report, the German foreign minister responded, “Are you saying that our doctors in the field in Gaza aren’t telling the truth? Are you saying that the international media is lying?”

The Intercept: New York Times Brass Moves to Staunch Leaks Over Gaza Coverage -
An internal leak investigation ended without a “definitive conclusion,” as the Times cuts ties with a controversial Israeli freelancer.
Yet the Times stuck by its reporting. The paper’s story on the U.N. report said the special forces paramedic’s account in “Screams” was not in question: “First responders told The New York Times they had found bodies of women with signs of sexual assault at those two kibbutzim, but The Times, in its investigation, did not refer to the specific allegations that the U.N. said were unfounded.”

The newspaper never explained the basis for its assertion that the U.N. had not actually debunked the paper’s reporting on the incident, but evidence soon came to light indicating that the reporting was false: There was video. On March 25, the Times itself reported that it had reviewed video taken by an Israeli soldier of the scene’s aftermath, showing three fully clothed bodies with no signs of sexual violence — making clear the paramedic’s description offered in “Screams Without Words” was false.

The Times’s new article on the video did not feature Gettleman’s byline. “New video has surfaced that undercuts the account of an Israeli military paramedic who said two teenagers killed in the Hamas-led terrorist attack on Oct. 7 were sexually assaulted,” the paper reported. “The unnamed paramedic, from an Israeli commando unit, was among dozens of people interviewed for a Dec. 28 article by The New York Times that examined sexual violence on Oct. 7.”

The Times, after submitting its article for a prestigious George Polk Award — and winning — suddenly began looking to share credit for its erroneous reporting. “The Associated Press, CNN, and the Washington Post reported similar accounts from a military paramedic who spoke on condition of anonymity,” reported the Times. (Eylon Levy, who at the time was an Israeli government spokesperson, had publicly offered to connect the paramedic with Western media outlets.)

The Times also walked back its claim that the previous U.N. report had not referred to its reporting. The Times article on the video said: “The report said the U.N. team was unable to establish whether sexual violence occurred in Be’eri and that at least two Be’eri cases reported in the news media were determined to be ‘unfounded,’ but it did not explicitly specify a military paramedic’s account.” It was a departure from its previous claim of certainty that the U.N. wasn’t referencing the account reported in the paper.

Instead of issuing a correction, the Times simply updated its “Screams Without Words” with the bracketed revelation that an entire section of its article was incorrect.

Which is reminding me to at least share these open tabs (oldish news):
- JPost: IDF finds female Nir Oz resident likely killed by helicopter fire on October 7
Mondoweiss: Another Israeli soldier admits to implementing the ‘Hannibal Directive’ on October 7 -
Captain Bar Zonshein recounts firing tank shells on vehicles carrying Israeli civilians on October 7. "I decide that this is the right decision, that it's better to stop the abduction and that they not be taken," he told Israeli media outlets.
- Electronic Intifada (picking out one specific interview from the Al-Jazeera documentary linked): Israeli source of “executed children” lie admits story was untrue

- Mind you there was coverage on this hostage about sexual assault during her time as a hostage but I think because it's not from Oct 7 *and* grotesquely, people couldn't use descriptive mentions of rape (as she didn't say there was, but she was groped), I just don't see her story being slung back and forth: (CNN) Israeli woman who was held hostage by Hamas speaks out on her abduction and sexual assault in Gaza
--
This is an early March report from Haaretz that's worth bringing up considering how trigger-happy today is becoming: 'It's a War of Cruel Rich People. Israel's Form of Combat in Gaza Is Unusually Wasteful' -

Munitions-related issues that have emerged in the war in Gaza will be investigated later. In the meantime they're dictating the army's strategy and leaving Israel totally dependent on its American ally
The defense establishment was aware of the issue of inferior armaments munitions from the start. Moreover, according to a source who sells military equipment to the army, the high proportion of unexploded bombs and artillery shells is a problem that's likely to persist. "As a lesson from the 2006 Lebanon war, in which we ran through our high-quality weapons already at the start," the source explains, "at the beginning of the Gaza war the IDF used old ammunition dating back to the Yom Kippur War and so on."

According to another prominent figure in Israel's military industries, who has conducted business with the army for years, bombs that were not American-made were responsible for many failures. "It's not just a matter of old merchandise. When you roam the world looking for ammunition from all and sundry, the manufacturers give you anything they have stockpiled, and sometimes you lose."

The same account of scrounging around for ammunition was repeated by a number of sources in the industry, with whom TheMarker, Haaretz's business newspaper, spoke in the past few weeks. The interviewees also mentioned the fact that ordnance that had previously been disqualified for possible procurement because of its low quality, was purchased and put into use after October 7.

(...) In any case, the story of Israel's so-called ammunition economy begins in Ukraine. Already in early 2023, less than a year after the Russian invasion, the U.S. military had begun to empty out the warehouses of ammunition it stockpiles in Israel.

(...) The result when the war broke out was that Israel was in need of a massive airlift of ammunition from the United States, which was indeed provided. "The airlift to replenish the stock wasn't a 'favor' the Americans did us – it was all anchored in the agreement between us," Kalisky explains. "But the 28,000 tons of equipment, ammunition, special vehicles and medical equipment that arrived here on 280 flights and via 40 to 60 huge ships, show how vital it was to restock. Especially because this is a bomb-saturated war."

Now we come to the normal country behaviour bit: Aggravating the situation of depleted stores of ammunition that existed on October 7 is the fact that Israel is not handling the Gaza campaign economically. According to a former ranking IDF officer, "Our form of combat at the moment is unusually wasteful. You could term it 'a war of cruel rich people.' We're attacking innumerable targets, without asking whether it's worth attacking them, and artillery is being used in places where it's not really obligatory."

He adds: "The fact that we are demolishing everything before entering is being manifested in the duration of the operation. If you'd asked before the war how long it would take us to conquer Gaza, the answer would've been that we were talking about a situation that could be accomplished in far less than four months. In principle, it would be possible to arrive at similar achievements with 10 percent of the destruction we have caused. Our assumption is that if we had sown less destruction, we would have sustained more casualties. On the other hand, however, less destruction would have meant that we would be on the ground there for less time – and less time means fewer casualties.

(...) This reckless conduct apparently reflects Israel's absolute assumption that the United States will continue to arm and finance it. Last month, the U.S. Senate approved an aid package of $14 billion for Israel, as part of a $95-billion foreign aid bill, though the House has yet to pass the legislation. Israel's 2024 budget is based on the premise that the money will arrive in the course of the year. However, there is concern in the Finance Ministry, voiced in internal discussions, that political instability in the United States in advance of the upcoming elections will delay the transfer of the funds.

Moreover, not all the money will be channeled to Israel even if the legislation is passed. About $6 billion has been earmarked for underwriting the post-October 7 deployment of the U.S. military in the Middle East. Israeli Treasury officials tried to argue that the cost of dispatching U.S. Navy aircraft carriers and other warships to the Mediterranean could not be considered direct aid – an approach that was not well received by their American interlocutors.

(...) The limitations of Israel's ammunition economy become even more acute in light of a possible heightened confrontation in Lebanon. Knowledgeable sources estimate that replenishing stockpiles to a level that would enable the IDF to act unimpeded on the northern front as well as in the south will take time, and that for deployment on all other fronts, even more time will be needed.

(...) Israel is currently working intensively to bring its ammunition stores up to par. The production lines of IMI Systems (formerly Israel Military Industries) for shells, which had waned in recent years for business reasons, have been reinvigorated and are working at high intensity. Still, opening a new production lines is a process that takes more than a few months. The big arms manufacturers in the United States have tripled their activity, and industry figures are favorably surprised by the rate at which Israel's ammunition supplies are being replenished by local and foreign entities alike. But Israel is still insufficiently prepared for a multi-arena war, when it comes to the quantities of muitions at its disposal.

Israeli officials who deal with the American arms industries have their finger on the pulse of developments there. They worry about the impact of every militant statement by Netanyahu or his cabinet ministers criticizing the United States, and about every report of President Joe Biden taking a swipe at the prime minister. Every delay in the supply of munitions is a cause for concern. The insiders note that if and when the United States gets to the point where it tries to pressure Israel about its conduct in the war using the ammunition it supplies as leverage, it will be done at first under the radar.

According to a senior figure who is in close touch with the American side, "It won't happen like a guillotine. No one will say, 'We are stopping supplies to Israel.' It's a process that will begin very slowly. First a directive will be issued there to step up the checks on a particular product they are supposed to deliver to us. Then someone will discover that it's necessary to renew the export license for a part in some sort of ammunition system that we need – and it will be delayed. There are all sorts of methods. An atmosphere that's not pleasant to work in will arise. When we ask [representatives of] the American side whether they would like to meet up with us, they'll say 'In another two months,' or 'We're prohibited from traveling to Israel.' And when we send parts or systems for repair there, we'll be told, 'There are three clients ahead of you in line.'"

Turn. Off. The. Tap.
posted by cendawanita at 9:17 PM on April 18 [14 favorites]

"Israel Is a Strategic Liability for the United States"

This is what I find so genuinely bizarre about Biden all but abandoning Ukraine for the sake of going all in on helping Israel with genocide. I mean, even if you are the coldest of strategists and don't care about the difference between a relatively egalitarian democracy defending itself against conquest and an ethnonationalist colonial power trying to steal more land, Israel is useless baggage, while letting Russia take over Ukraine threatens the stability of all of Europe.
posted by tavella at 10:01 PM on April 18 [9 favorites]

Wasn’t that through a UN resolution, which was Resolution 181?'” Abu Amr said

Interesting. concerning that vote Truman noted: "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."
United States (Vote: For)
posted by clavdivs at 10:02 PM on April 18 [2 favorites]

Oh well that means I can look forward to "Biden angy" news tomorrow -

CNN's Alex Marquadt (2H): A US official confirms to me that Israel has carried out a strike against Iran. Both the official and another senior US official say Israel indicated they would not attack nuclear targets. US didn't "green light" this attack, the 2nd official told me.
posted by cendawanita at 10:57 PM on April 18 [3 favorites]

Also from CNN, it appears the strike was deflected by Iran. If that's all--just a few drones and it's over--I think we can be grateful. Of course, if Iran says "this unprovoked attack must not be countenanced," then who knows what happens next.
posted by mittens at 4:49 AM on April 19 [3 favorites]

I don't have a link rn but from what i saw earlier Iran's official response seems to be dismissive, like "yeah, it was a few quadcopters, we shot them all down". Which i think is good.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:05 AM on April 19 [4 favorites]

This is what I find so genuinely bizarre about Biden all but abandoning Ukraine for the sake of going all in on helping Israel with genocide.

The "abandoning Ukraine" part of that is factually wrong (obviously, both parties in the US are all-in on helping Israel). The Ukraine aid has been stalled entirely because of the portion of the GOP who are in hock to the Russians (i.e., MT Green and cohorts). Biden's team bundled the Ukraine and Israel aid in the theory that the GOP, who are fully behind Israel for biblical end-times reasons, would be willing to accept the Ukraine aid in order to get the Israel aid; that gambit has obviously not worked. Thankfully there seems to finally be movement in the House because Johnson might have grown part of a spine and is listening to the more traditional wing of his party. I'm very, very cautiously optimistic that they'll finally get the aid released soon.

Is there more that Biden could be doing for Ukraine despite the GOP intransigence? Probably, but they are the roadblock for the major aid that is needed. And the elephant in the room is still Europe's continuing inability to restart its own arms industry, making everyone dependent on internal US politics in an awkward way.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:46 AM on April 19 [4 favorites]

Over 100 people arrested at Columbia for protesting.

On the Columbia students: According to student journalists reporting from WKCR, Columbia University’s student radio station, one arrested student protestor asked the police to be allowed to go to their dorm to collect medication and was denied; as a result, they went into shock. The arrested students were charged with “trespassing” on the campus that they are charged more than $60,000 a year to attend.

It is worth stating plainly what happened at Columbia: the raid was nothing less than the product of collusion between a university administration and rightwing politicians to suppress politically disfavored speech.

Knight Institute comments: We were surprised and dismayed by the University’s decision to engage the NYPD to dismantle a student encampment and arrest dozens of students who were involved in a protest that by all available accounts was peaceful. The University has a legitimate interest in enforcing reasonable restrictions on the time, place, and manner of protests. Its own rules also make clear, however, that external authorities should be engaged to end a protest only as a last resort—only when there is a clear and present danger to persons, property, or the substantial functioning of any division of the University.

Is Columbia in crisis? When the NYPD Strategic Response Group—which the New York Civil Liberties Union has repeatedly characterized as “notoriously violent”—is welcomed onto campus with open arms, it is Shafik who “disrupts campus life” and infringes on her supposedly paramount principle of safety. How can students, especially those of color, feel safe when their campus is flooded by a police force infested with systemic racism and armed with riot gear? Clearly, “care and compassion” are not being extended equally to everyone.

Also a call to action for Columbia alumni.

Interview with one of the Google workers who was fired - by the way, it was his first job out of college, he's 23: And lots of people came by and asked us what was going on. People were given flyers. And a lot of people were just concerned about the things that we were talking about. They expressed solidarity with us. There was a lot of support from Google employees.

Yeah, this was retaliation, like completely indiscriminate—people who had just walked by just to say hello and maybe talk to us for a little bit. They were fired. People who aren't affiliated with No Tech For Apartheid at all, who just showed up and were interested in what was going on. And then security asked to see their badge and they were among the 28 fired.
posted by toastyk at 7:20 AM on April 19 [11 favorites]

NYT feature on college graduates who finished training in Gaza one week before the war started. (Gift link)

War in Gaza causes surprising rift within Japanese American group - In the letter, the activists called Israel’s actions in Gaza — which have killed more than 33,000 people, according to Gazan health authorities — a “genocidal campaign.” They drew a comparison between the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans and the dire living conditions that Palestinians in Gaza experienced before the war.

“In our community, we often say ‘never again,’” they wrote in the letter, which has been signed by more than 360 people, including many young J.A.C.L. members. “But we must ask, ‘never again’ for whom?”

USC has cancelled all commencement speakers.

Gaza has exposed the shameful hypocrisy of Western feminism: While Clinton is a particular breed of war-mongering feminist – the kind who gave speeches supporting the anti-hijab protests in Iran but continuously refuses to call for a ceasefire or press Israel on its wanton slaughter of women and children in Gaza – many Western feminists seem to have found themselves tongue-tied to the point of incoherence when it comes to the rights of Palestinian women. Brené Brown, the author and corporate motivator, wrote a rambling word salad of utter nonsense titled, ‘Not Looking Away: Thoughts on the Israel-Hamas War’ in February. (A note: this is from Zeteo, Mehdi Hasan's new media outlook hosted on Substack. This article is by Fatima Bhutto, and is part of a series in which a topic on the Global South is discussed each month.)

Al-Jazeera feature on the destruction of hospitals in Gaza. Includes before and after pictures.

Students at more universities plan solidarity rallies after arrests of students at Columbia.
posted by toastyk at 6:31 AM on April 20 [9 favorites]

(U.S.)House passes key foreign aid package.
posted by clavdivs at 2:17 PM on April 20

The vote for the portion of the bill providing aid to Israel ($17B) and aid to Gaza ($9B) was 366 to 58, with 37 D's and 21 R's voting no. That's about as bipartisan as it gets these days.
posted by Dip Flash at 3:21 PM on April 20

Good morning, I just woke up and here's what's been going on so far - I am deliberately not listing the Columbia/US universities encampments/protest news because I think that should probably be a separate front page post as it's ongoing and ballooning in scope.

NYT Gift link on how all everyone voted - includes graphics and names if you want to look up your rep. (Side note: the Bluesky Gift Links/Articles feed is an awesome resource.)

WAPO gift link on how Americans view the conflict in Gaza - That CBS poll also posed several questions meant to gauge support for possible actions by the U.S. government. Three options had the support of at least 6 in 10 respondents: sending humanitarian aid to Israelis and Palestinians and fostering a diplomatic resolution. Only among Republicans was there more support for providing weapons to Israel than providing humanitarian aid to Palestinians in Gaza.

US expected to sanction IDF unit for human rights violation in the West Bank - U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is expected to within days announce sanctions against the Israel Defense Forces "Netzah Yehuda" battalion for human rights violations in the occupied West Bank, three U.S. sources with knowledge of the issue told Axios. The news comes two days after ProPublica reported that Secretary of State Anthony Blinken had been sitting on State Department recommendations to sanction Israeli military units linked to killings or rape. The Netzah Yehuda battalion is made up of Haredi Jewish men and allows them to serve without compromising their religious beliefs. An 80 year old Palestinian American died in their custody after being handcuffed, gagged and forced to lie on his stomach for between 20 minutes and an hour, dying from a stress-induced cardiac arrest.

Israel is said to be "aghast" at the announcement. Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich said imposing sanctions “while Israel is fighting for its existence is utter madness.”

“This is part of a planned move to force the State of Israel to agree to the establishment of a Palestinian state and to forsake Israel’s security,” Smotrich charged in a post on X.

The UN has decried the intentional destruction of complex and hard-to-obtain medical equipment in Gaza’s beleaguered hospitals and maternity wards, further deepening risks to women already giving birth in “inhumane, unimaginable conditions.”

Recent UN-led missions to 10 Gaza hospitals found many “in ruins” and just a couple capable of providing any level of maternal health services, said Dominic Allen, the UN Population Fund or UNFPA representative for the state of Palestine.

Ambulance driver killed while aiding Palestinians injured in attack by Israeli settlers in the West Bank - The 50-year-old driver, Mohammed Awad Allah Mohammed Musa, was killed when the ambulance was hit by gunfire, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) told CNN. Israeli settlers fired the shots, it said.

In a separate incident the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) detained another ambulance crew at the entrance of the Thabet Thabet hospital in Tulkarm, West Bank, the PRCS reported.
posted by toastyk at 7:19 AM on April 21 [7 favorites]

while Israel is fighting for its existence

Wow. That, I think, kind of sums up the total disassociation from reality that the pro-genocide faction is working under. The idea that Israel is "fighting for its existence" against a tiny handful of terrorist types equipped with some shitty rockets is delusional. The idea of Hamas as an existential threat to Israel is absurd on the face of it.

And yet, that's the assumptions they're operating under in order to justify the ongoing genocide. They want to portray it as, at worst perhaps distasteful, but necessary in order to destroy a threat that might eradicate Israel and exterminate all Jews worldwide.

I don't know if Genocide Joe actually buys into that blatant lie or if he just really likes genocide so he's pretending to, or what. But I do think that based on the polling we see coming out of Israel that it does appear a strong majority of the Israeli population DOES believe that they're in existential battle for the continued survival of Jews worldwide and that to falter, to show mercy, or to do anything but kill as many Palestinians as possible is to sign their own death warrant. We could argue about whether or not they REALLY believe it or are just pretending to, but they are acting as if they believe it.

Which is why they're going to continue until the Palestinian population is gone. I'd like to hope that many/most of the people advocating for continuing the genocide would prefer the Palestinian population to vanish via expulsion rather than death, but even at my most hopeful I believe they'd accept killing every Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank if that was the only way to achieve their goal of ethnic cleansing and finalizing the land theft that started back in the 1940's.

I am increasingly convinced that the only way any Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank will survive is if they flee. Israel is not going to stop even if America yanks all support, and America is clearly hellbent on supporting Israel until the last Palestinian infant is slaughtered.
posted by sotonohito at 8:43 AM on April 21 [8 favorites]

Wow. That, I think, kind of sums up the total disassociation from reality that the pro-genocide faction is working under. The idea that Israel is "fighting for its existence" against a tiny handful of terrorist types equipped with some shitty rockets is delusional. The idea of Hamas as an existential threat to Israel is absurd on the face of it.

It's a little shocking to me how consistent genocidal rhetoric is across genocides. It's always this notion that a besieged vulnerable minority with very little actual material power or resources is a terrifying existential threat that must be exterminated for the safety of the group committing the genocide. It's the same playbook over and over again.

We could argue about whether or not they REALLY believe it or are just pretending to, but they are acting as if they believe it.

I personally absolutely think they believe it. I really think that very genuine fear is what makes genocide possible.
posted by lizard2590 at 9:36 AM on April 21 [11 favorites]

I am increasingly convinced that the only way any Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank will survive is if they flee. Israel is not going to stop even if America yanks all support and America is clearly hellbent on supporting Israel until the last Palestinian infant is slaughtered.

This is just doomerism. It's been 6 months and some people are estimating Hamas is a larger force than on October 7. Armed resistance in the West Bank is increasing, Yemen is still blockading the Red Sea, Iran has demonstrated its strike capabilities and willingness to blockade the Strait of Hormuz if the need arises, Hezbollah has its claimed massive arsenal of missiles and are picking apart Israeli border installations, and the American military just isn't what it was 20 years ago. The U.S. and Israel will continue the attempted genocide but they will hit a limit eventually. Palestinians are here to stay in Palestine.
posted by grigg at 10:53 AM on April 21 [10 favorites]

It's always this notion that a besieged vulnerable minority with very little actual material power or resources is a terrifying existential threat that must be exterminated for the safety of the group committing the genocide

Is there a proper term for this kind of scapegoating -- for this dire need to create an enemy out of strangers, when the parent figure absolutely cannot do?
--right? because there pretty much is no culture on earth that allows the offspring to hold parents accountable for any evils committed upon them, particularly abuses of the sexual variety including genital mutilation, incest and pedophilia

Is there a proper term for how this kind of scapegoating can basically go oroboros on itself as a forever-spinning cycle (or samsara, if you will) wherein the existential threat is never, ever found or identified in concrete terms (conveniently), allowing the genocide-committing group to carry on in their delusions unchecked, utterly unable to self-regulate its nursery ghosts, for generations? It doesn't have to be forever, but due to the human condition of not being born with a mature cerebral cortex, it generally goes on "forever" until some saving divine miracle (i.e. a new collective mass delusion puts the group on a new course), environmental intervention (e.g. ecological population collapse or extinction), or succession of the demographic transition cycle for humans (e.g. as the group has its material needs met and its offspring follow the natural course of the life cycle, as part of the self-reflection that comes with being humanity's "leaders" the group understands that violence was never necessary for getting their needs met and agree as part of humanity to change course before their offspring reject them over the many "original" sins they will now inherit).

Are there proper english words to succinctly explain how some adults experienced trauma at the hands of their caregivers in early childhood, and then as a result of cultural conditioning, grow up believing there is a deity that divinely accepts their desire to take out the pain of that parent-originating trauma on someone else who that deity has deemed 'less worthy' of life, consciousness and a soul? Is it shadow projecting? Is it poison container-ing? What are the english words needed?

What are the words for explaining that a person who is abused at home by their parents may wind up going out into society to act out that violence unto others? What are we not-seeing when it comes to people whose experience of abusive parenting has implicitly given them a green light to go out and do violence in society in general? Is it attachment blindness? Attachment scabbing? [Destructive] fantasy bonding? Apologies if I've missed the obvious answers somewhere, but John Bradshaw, Alice Miller, Lloyd De Mause and other writers have tried describing this dynamic when it came to German society and the rise of the Nazis... yet in these threads, I'm not seeing the connections being made even though they would probably help.

In care you're reading this but not-understanding, consider how acceptable it's been in Canada for Euro-Settlers (i.e. unwanted, abused and rejected children of European Nations) to be magically at total ease with the rape of children throughout Canada's indigenous populations over centuries. Right? Because if those adults were mistreated as kids, then it stands to reason that they deserve to molest other people's kids -- but it's got to be other people's kids, right, because then otherwise we run the risk of that child-sex-poison polluting our own, hence using minorities as "poison containers" for the feelings about our parents we would rather not feel.
posted by human ecologist at 4:56 PM on April 21 [2 favorites]

sorry, nevermind, I guess there is a term for all that, i.e. GOP political engagement strategy
posted by human ecologist at 5:24 PM on April 21

The attack on Hilary Clinton and western feminists reads like every other bit of anti-feminist propaganda I’ve read in the last decade. As Secretary of State, Senator and First Lady HRC put in a lot of time and effort attempting to get the parties to negotiate and end to this conflict. She didn’t decide to attack Israel on October 7th and is currently retired. If people had listened to her and voted for her maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess today. Pretending western feminists are closely aligned to Israeli policy is also simply incorrect.
posted by interogative mood at 9:27 PM on April 21 [2 favorites]

(there really should be another thread on the USA student protests)

Reuters short news burst showing that today the West Bank is on strike to protest the IDF raid in Tulkarem that killed 14 Palestinians.

Mairav Zonsvein commenting on a Benny Gantz tweet which disagrees with the application of the Leahy Act: This illustrates my point that
Gantz is a political rival to Netanyahu only in that he is not Netanyahu.

Gantz : The ‘Netzah Yehuda’ battalion is an inseparable part of the Israel Defense Forces. It is subject to military law and is responsible for operating in full compliance with International law.

The State of Israel has a strong, independent judicial system that evaluates meticulously any claim of a violation or deviation from IDF orders and code of conduct, and will continue to do so.

I have great appreciation for our American friends, but the decision to impose sanctions on an IDF unit and its soldiers sets a dangerous precedent and conveys the wrong message to our shared enemies during war time.

I intend on acting to have this decision changed.

A +972 piece from 2 years ago: The unexceptional violence of Israel’s ‘Haredi battalion’
After the killing of a Palestinian elder, the Netzah Yehuda army unit is again in the spotlight. But the violent system it is part of still escapes scrutiny.
When the story first broke, the details largely focused on Asad’s age and the fact that he was an American citizen — both factors that contributed to the higher-than-usual international media attention on the killing of a Palestinian by Israeli forces. The U.S. State Department asked for a “thorough criminal investigation”; Israel, after its initial customary hand-waving that included denying any connection between Asad’s death and his treatment at the hands of the army, removed two officers from their posts and announced a military police investigation.

As these developments unfolded, a further detail came to light in the course of the media’s reporting: that the soldiers responsible for Asad’s death were members of an army battalion called Netzah Yehuda (“Eternal Judea”). Netzah Yehuda’s grim track record of abuses soon came under fresh scrutiny, along with criticisms of the battalion that resurface every time it is involved in a new scandal.

Yet while those criticisms are necessary and merited, they unduly focus on the specificity of Netzah Yehuda’s identity as a religious military outfit, while almost universally failing to address the wider system in which the battalion carries out its abuses — and which cultivates the ideology that leads to such violence.

Understanding Netzah Yehuda’s history and background is undoubtedly important, but that examination should be a prelude to addressing the battalion’s place in Israel’s apparatus of domination over Palestinians — not to extricate it from that regime altogether.

(...) The intensity of the criticisms against Netzah Yehuda has not gone unremarked upon in the Israeli media. Among the backlash to the condemnations — backlash which has largely come from the battalion’s army peers — has been the suggestion that while other Israeli military units have caused more harm, it is perhaps “more comfortable for people to speak out against a… mainly Haredi battalion,” in the words of a former Netzah Yehuda commander.

There is merit to this accusation. The majority of Netzah Yehuda’s recruits are from backgrounds that are routinely “othered” by Israel’s largely Ashkenazi social and political elites — not only Haredim and Hardalim, but specifically Mizrahi Orthodox soldiers, who form a central component of the battalion. Here, as in other high-profile incidents involving deadly violence against Palestinians, Israel’s tendency to outsource the ugliest functions of its colonizing apparatus to marginalized social groups is a fundamental, yet frequently overlooked, piece of the puzzle.

Even as these criticisms get at part of the bigger picture, however, they still hit a wall: they rest on the assumption that the battalion’s composition and behavior, as contrasted with that of the rest of the army, are uniquely deviant.

There is, by extension, a two-fold implication here: firstly, that physical state violence against Palestinians is somehow exceptional and purely reactive, rather than being a constitutive element of apartheid and occupation; and, secondly, that within those exceptions, Netzah Yehuda is enacting the “wrong” kind of violence — with the unspoken corollary that there is a “correct” mode of violence to which the battalion is failing to adhere.

Worth thinking about how, and can be seen even in Mefi's threads to date, how non-ashkenazi Israelis become convenient shields even totems against charges of racism or colonialism. (Lest it becomes too on the nose, consider who is presiding over the management of Columbia Uni right now as well)

On that note: (Vox) The untold story of Arab Jews — and their solidarity with Palestinians
This “outpost of civilization” ideology is key to understanding how Israel justified Palestinian dispossession to Israelis and to the world as Jews seeking refuge from persecution settled in Palestine in the 19th and 20th centuries. When Israel was founded in 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or forced to flee their homes in what is now the Jewish state.

But from the early days of the state, there was a group that didn’t buy the justification: Jews with roots in the Arab and Muslim world.

Called Mizrahim in Israel, these Jews today make up the largest ethnic group in the country. They mostly immigrated to Israel after 1948, and for much of the country’s history, they’ve been victims of the same kind of anti-Arab ideology that is wielded against the Palestinians.

For centuries, Mizrahi Jews had enjoyed high status in their countries of origin in the Middle East and North Africa, which ranged from Iraq to Egypt to Morocco. But when they landed in Israel, they found that the new state was ruled by European Jews, called Ashkenazim, who overwhelmingly viewed them as primitive and culturally backward.

Mizrahi intellectuals at the time were quick to link the discrimination against them to the discrimination against Palestinians. Orientalism — Palestinian scholar Edward Said’s term for a European tendency to portray “the East” as exotic, irrational, and uncivilized — was being used to cast both groups as inferior and deny them equal rights. Their struggle was one and the same. And so, starting in the 1950s, Mizrahim and Palestinians formed a solidarity movement, producing everything from joint magazines to joint street protests.

This movement offers a counterpoint to the “villa in the jungle” view of Israel — an alternative vision for how Jews and Palestinians can live together on the land. It also offers a more nuanced way to think about contemporary debates on the meaning of indigeneity, nationhood, and colonialism in Israel-Palestine.

The vision of Mizrahi-Palestinian solidarity seems even more important in light of what has actually happened in more recent decades: Mizrahim drastically moved to the political right, and solidarity with Palestinians became Israel’s road not taken. Understanding that swerve is key to understanding what went wrong in Israel’s history that made it unable to imagine coexistence with an Arab people. And it may be key to building a better future for all.

The author, Sigal Samuel, also has a thread talking about her piece through the lens of her family's history.
---
In the midst of water supplies being affected as the fuel powering the system ran out: (CBC) Canada contacts Israel after aid agency says water truck bombed in 'targeted' attack -
International Development and Relief Foundation calling on federal government to investigate
The truck was bombed in the early hours of Wednesday morning, the relief agency said. It was parked outside the Tuffah district in the northern part of Gaza at the time, and was clearly marked with the organization's name and a maple leaf, it added.

CBC News asked Global Affairs Canada how it will ensure that information from Israel on the incident is accurate and whether it will provide its own investigators. Hussen's office did not address those questions in its response.(...) Ali said the water truck was paid for entirely from Canadian donor dollars, and that thousands will be without water as a result of the bombing.

"That truck was a staple in providing people with clean drinking water on a daily basis," he said.

The relief agency said on X that over the last six months, the truck delivered clean drinking water to tens of thousands, "serving as a lifeline" in northern and central Gaza.

This is still ongoing news, and to beat a dead horse, it's very likely the death undercount is real: (MEE) Hundreds of bodies found in Khan Younis mass graves
Keep in mind that this is posted yesterday, as you read the numbers: Palestinian civil defence teams continue to recover bodies of Palestinians believed to have been buried by Israeli forces in mass graves in the courtyard of Nasser hospital in Khan Younis.

The Gaza government media office says two mass graves have been discovered so far.

At least 170 bodies have been recovered, with the number of bodies found reaching nearly 400, according to civil defence workers. . I'm seeing elsewhere numbers of up to 200.
posted by cendawanita at 9:39 PM on April 21 [9 favorites]

She didn’t decide to attack Israel on October 7th and is currently retired. If people had listened to her and voted for her maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess today

At which avenues? The only ones she's showing up for in the last six months were mainly Israel-sympathetic and had barely anything to say about rapes and sexual violence and reproductive harms being faced by Palestinians, and not in the historical past of her tenure (of which she didn't comment) but in the news bursts that's come out in the last half year. Do they need to be Israeli? Well, nothing to say about the arrest of Dr Nadera Shalhoub Kevorkian? Perhaps because she was merely tortured? Luckily the district judge threw out the case but apparently that's enough time (threadreader):

Dr. Nadera Shalhoub-Kevorkian's family and colleagues would like it shared widely that while detained, Israeli police subjected her to torture and interrogated her. They spent an hour asking about an article she wrote in 2020. They shackled her feet and hands, put her in solitary - a urine and cockroach-infested space - and gave her blankets with vomit on them. They kept the light on all night long and kept her room freezing. Her ear started bleeding from high blood pressure and they denied her medication. They confiscated her computer, phone, every piece of new scholarship she was working on, and books from her home. They also questioned her about her academic colleagues.

They ask that we remain vigilant even though a judge ordered her release. Her own university facilitating the arrest through their own repression
is yet another reason for committing to an academic boycott of Israeli universities.
posted by cendawanita at 11:10 PM on April 21 [7 favorites]

This is a blog article version of the various posts I've seen: (Abolition Media) Tulkarem Brigade Commander, Abu Shujaa, Returns Alive, Sending Palestine Into Celebration (sharing this one since related to the raid that's killed many in Tulkarem. truly, the IDF has such an aiming problem in Palestine.)

Unsurprising announcement: (BBC) US-Israel: Netanyahu vows to reject any US sanctions on army units - it's been noted elsewhere it's not sanctions, but an actual application of the Leahy Act.

Still outside Gaza: (EI) Genocide alert issued over Israeli violence in West Bank
The Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention has issued an “active genocide alert” over the situation for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.

“Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians across Palestine,” the Lemkin Institute said earlier this month.

Last weekend, violence against Palestinians escalated sharply as large groups of Israeli settler mobs launched attacks on at least 17 Palestinian villages following the disappearance of an Israeli teenager.

EC: Extremist settlers in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem: Council sanctions four individuals and two entities over serious human rights abuses against Palestinians
The listed entities are Lehava, a radical right-wing Jewish supremacist group, and Hilltop Youth, a radical youth group consisting of members known for violent acts against Palestinians and their villages in the West Bank. Two leading figures of Hilltop Youth, Meir Ettinger and Elisha Yered, are also listed. Both were involved in deadly attacks against Palestinians in 2015 and 2023.

Today’s designations also include Neria Ben Pazi, who has been accused of repeatedly attacking Palestinians in Wadi Seeq and in Deir Jarir since 2021, and Yinon Levi, who has taken part in multiple violent acts against neighbouring villages from his residence in the Mitarim farm illegal outpost.

With today’s listings, restrictive measures under the EU’s Global Human Rights Sanctions Regime now apply to 108 natural and legal persons and 28 entities from a range of countries.

HRW: West Bank: Israel Responsible for Rising Settler Violence -Entire Palestinian Communities Displaced Months After Attacks (this report has descriptions of specific incidents)

Over the weekend, HuffPost: Israel’s Strike On Iran Prolongs An Excruciating Limbo For Palestinians -
An attack on Rafah, the last refuge in Gaza, appears imminent — and ongoing Israel-Iran tensions are complicating hopes President Joe Biden will stop it

Today, AP: Israeli strikes on southern Gaza city of Rafah kill 22, mostly children, as US advances aid package

Have this UNRWA report been shared? This came out last week: DETENTION AND ALLEGED ILL-TREATMENT OF DETAINEES FROM GAZA DURING ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR -
Harrowing read but since many people have no issues not seeing or parsing sexual violence reports when it happens to Palestinians, I'll just quote:
In most reported detention incidents, the IDF forced males, including children, to strip down to their underwear. UNRWA also documented at least one occasion where males sheltering in an UNRWA installation were forced to strip naked and were detained while naked.

Both men and women reported threats and incidents that may amount to sexual violence and harassment by the IDF while in detention. Male victims reported beatings to their genitals, while one detainee reported being made to sit on an electrical probe.

"They made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like re – I have burns [in the anus]. The soldiers hit me with their shoes on my chest and used something like a metal stick that had a small nail on the side...They asked us to drink from the toilet and made the dogs attack us…There were people who were detained and killed – maybe nine of them. One of them died after they put the electric stick up his [anus]. He got so sick; we saw worms coming out of his body and then he died." - Adult male detainee, aged 41 years.

Also: Detention of UNRWA staff and reports of forced confessions
UNRWA recorded cases of Palestinian UNRWA staff in Gaza detained by the IDF – including some detained during the performance of their official duties for
the UN, including while working at UNRWA installations and in one case during a coordinated humanitarian movement. UNRWA staff were reportedly held incommunicado and subjected to the same conditions and ill-treatment as other detainees, both in Gaza and in Israel.

UNRWA staff members reported being interrogated about the work performed by UNRWA, and the specific functions they perform on behalf of UNRWA. They also reported being subjected to threats and coercion while in detention and being pressured during interrogations to make forced confessions against the Agency, including that the Agency has affiliations with Hamas and thatUNRWA staff took part in the 7 October attacks against Israel.

The ill-treatment and abuse against UNRWA staff included severe physical beatings and treatment akin to waterboarding, resulting in extreme physical suffering; beatings by doctors when referred for medical assistance; exposure to and being attacked by dogs; threats of rape and electrocution; threats of violence with guns pointed at them; verbal and psychological abuse; threats of murder, injury or harm
to family members; humiliating and degrading treatment; being forced to strip naked and being photographed while they are undressed; and being forced to hold stress positions.

UNRWA has made official protests to the Israeli authorities about the reported treatment of Agency staff members while they were in Israeli detention
centers. UNRWA has not received any response to these protests to date.

It has been a week now, and a busy news week. I must have missed the official statements from known western feminists and their institutions.
posted by cendawanita at 12:10 AM on April 22 [7 favorites]

The attack on Hilary Clinton and western feminists reads like every other bit of anti-feminist propaganda I’ve read in the last decade. As Secretary of State, Senator and First Lady HRC put in a lot of time and effort attempting to get the parties to negotiate and end to this conflict. She didn’t decide to attack Israel on October 7th and is currently retired. If people had listened to her and voted for her maybe we wouldn’t be in this mess today. Pretending western feminists are closely aligned to Israeli policy is also simply incorrect.

I'm sure feminist critique of Israel's behavior in the Palestinian territories exists, but remarkably little of receives mainstream media attention or makes its way into most discussions. Regardless of how much this can be attributed to western feminists themselves (one suspects at least a little - I can find the National Organization for Women, the largest feminist organization in the US, condemning 7 Oct but no press releases on Gaza) one can't help but note how easily it can be hijacked in service of causes that demonstrably harm women and mostly mobilized against geopolitical rivals. The one that lives in my mind is the US freezing Afghanistan's central bank funds, thus cratering their economy, then turning around to criticize the Taliban for their treatment of women, as if they were not at the same time causing those same women widespread privation.

In any case, HRC's hawkishness is well documented. She and Bill weren't on speaking terms for 8 months after the Monica Lewinsky affair and she broke it only to urge him to bomb Serbia.
posted by ndr at 1:01 AM on April 22 [6 favorites]

Not sure how/why Hillary Clinton is relevant here, but she's got a long history of aligning with official US / Israeli policy on Palestine. And if you doubt that, you can read what she recently wrote on the subject ("Hamas Must Go"). Or read about all the people protesting her for her position on Palestine. (Actually, it's rather notable how often she has been commenting on Palestine in the past half year and how much people are protesting her for her anti-Palestinian views when she shows up anywhere!)

Pretending western feminists are closely aligned to Israeli policy is also simply incorrect

I'm drawing a blank trying to think of any mainstream feminist individual or organization in the US who has advocated for Palestinians in any way.

Contrast that with the way that people who have been lauded (rightly or wrongly) as feminists in the US have contributed to inciting genocide against the Palestinians using the (now debunked) idea that there was a Palestinian campaign of rape on Oct 7th. Sheryl Sandberg's recent performance (with Hillary Clinton -- since she was mentioned -- as a supporting cast member) comes to mind.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:37 AM on April 22 [10 favorites]

The attack on Hilary Clinton and western feminists reads like every other bit of anti-feminist propaganda I’ve read in the last decade.

What bizarre rock have you been living under that the most common anti-feminist propaganda is that a feminism which fails to critique war and imperialism and their incredibly negative effects on women's lives is a false feminism? You've spent the last decade living in an anarcho-feminist commune?

You can't shout your feminist credentials to the sky and also advocate for, if not genocide, then at least the mass processing of an entire population as potential terrorists. I don't think it's "no true scotsman" to say that I think feminists these days are expected to be skeptical of military power and authority and how women come out the other end of that process.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:00 AM on April 22 [7 favorites]

Earlier article I didn't get around to share: (Mondoweiss) I resigned from World Central Kitchen because it refused to tell the truth about the Israeli genocide in Gaza -
For months World Central Kitchen leadership censored material coming out of its Gaza operation and refused to honor staff concerns about our work there. They are finally taking a stand after personnel were killed, but it is much too late.
As Assistant Video Editor, I cataloged all of the copious footage coming in from Gaza. WCK had daily media uploads coming in from two Palestinian videographers for weeks early on in the activation. When combined with the phone footage from the ground team, it’s plausible WCK has more footage of post-October 7 Gaza than any other aid organization. However, the use of this footage, as well as external communications regarding the response, were extremely restricted. While it is unclear where along the chain of command these restrictions, almost always unexplained, originated, they were demanded of me by Linda Roth.

These restrictions included the removal of key context from videos. One video, highlighting WCK’s trucks entering Gaza via the Rafah crossing, had the story of a driver living out of his truck removed. The published video had no remaining detail of the Kafkaesque process of waiting for days or weeks to enter, and then starting the process again. In another instance, a video of a WCK kitchen caught in an IDF bombing was put on hold entirely. It appears this incident, as well as the fact that WCK personnel were aboard a UN convoy that was bombed, have not been mentioned anywhere externally. I resigned in early March following Roth’s time-dependent demand to share a version of a video that I was not comfortable with – it omitted references to previous Palestinian displacements, the overcrowding of Rafah, the commonality of death in Gaza, a reference to Palestinian death as a “crime,” and footage of the North.

(...) Save the possibility of genuine incompetence, the WCK leadership’s decisions were not made to maintain neutrality, did not increase effectiveness, and, as April 1 demonstrated, did not protect personnel. The leadership’s failure to honestly portray the dire reality in Gaza, and lack of an attempt to influence the genocide in Gaza via its status and close ties with the Biden administration, means that they bear responsibility for its outcomes. Let no one say they did everything they could.

Mine was only one experience. When I resigned, there was a palpable, widespread atmosphere of disappointment and anger among employees, stemming from issues that began long before I signed on. I am calling on current and former World Central Kitchen employees, contractors, and volunteers to publicly share their stories and force accountability and change.

News being filed of Berlin police throwing their hat in to be even more weird than American private unis: (Irish Independent) Berlin police ban Irish protesters from speaking or singing in Irish at pro-Palestine ‘ciorcal comhrá’ near Reichstag (the backstory is that the unlawful decree against non-German langugaes was to prevent Arabic being spoken. So the Irish activists came in to test.)
Irish woman Caoimhe McAllister, who was attending the protest, said the group of approximately 40 people gathered at 6pm at the protest camp in front of the German parliament, the Reichstag, on Friday evening, April 19.

“At that camp, especially in the last days of Ramadan, there was a crackdown on any Arabic-speaking, including arresting someone,” she said.

“So we decided to highlight what we see as a really worrying human rights concern. We just had to highlight this by speaking in Irish.”

The Palestine Institute for Public Diplomacy: Public Opinion Poll: How 5 European countries see Palestinian issues (administered by YouGov) - polling based on their understanding of media coverage

Update from the newly discovered mass grave in Khan Younis from Al-Jazeera indicates that they have found about 210 bodies so far.

CNN: Biden administration secures key agreement for aid distribution from US military pier being built off Gaza coast - it's WFP
Speaking of, as reported by Rami Ayari: .@WFP regarding CNN reporting that the UN agency has agreed to support aid distribution via the #US pier off the coast of #Gaza: "Given the catastrophic hunger situation in Gaza, #WFP is open to exploring any opportunity to safely reach people in desperate need. Our priority is sustained and scaled-up overland access to all parts of Gaza, especially the north. Any decision regarding the #UN’s participation in the maritime corridor set-up needs to be fully agreed on with the humanitarian agencies operating in Gaza, under conditions that allow for safe, sustained, and scaled up assistance to reach people in need."

Earlier today @BiesanAK asked #UNSG Spox @StephDujarric about this and he stressed need for land access and that any involvement in aid delivery has to be done within UN's humanitarian principles including independence: "Obviously we are ready to support any delivery of humanitarian aid by air, by sea, but most importantly, by land, because that's the most productive. But any aid distribution that the UN is involved in needs to be done within the parameters of the humanitarian principles of the United Nations, which is notably independence."

Back to the CNN reporting: At the same time, a private company called Fogbow, an advisory firm run by former US military and intelligence officials, is in the process of setting up its own maritime aid operation that will run parallel to — but separate from — the US military-led process, according to several people familiar with the plan.

People familiar with Fogbow’s plan say the firm has identified a construction company owned by a Palestinian-American with hundreds of trucks and a vast storage facility near Israel’s border to move the aid. Some aid groups would prefer all the distribution to be handled by the UN, and have raised concerns about the idea of concentrating so much power and responsibility into the hands of one wealthy Palestinian entrepreneur, whom sources identified as Bashar al Masri.

Fogbow’s initial plan is for much of the aid to be moved by Masri’s trucks to a zone in Gaza called the Gaza Industrial Estate that was developed by a company Masri now chairs called the Palestine Development and Investment Company.

Masri declined a request for comment.

Please insert distracted boyfriend meme here for UNRWA.

Younis Tirawi is quoted in this ABC US article: IDF's conduct, ethics under scrutiny following soldiers' social media posts

His recent socmed finds:
22 April: Gaza |

Israeli military captain from the 6646th Patrol Battalion posting a picture moments before he burned the Holy Quran back in January.

Also 22 April: 🧵Khan Younis |

“This is our work for today.. burning of all these places.. it’s been fire…. Hahaha”

Israeli officer Giladi jokes with his fellow officer Moradov about the fact that they torched Palestinian homes they resided in after leaving them back in late Dec->

This 21 Apr thread: (with video of interview) Sammy Ben, a U.S. citizen from LA, who is involved in serious war crimes in the occupied Palestinian territories, shockingly confessed on a talk show that he served in the military while on a Tourist Visa and is not even Israeli.

He fought in Gaza for two months!

But these are just rank and file right? Speaking of Israeli media:
@ireallyhateyou: (video with captions) "These people there (in Gaza) deserve death. A hard death, an agonizing death. And instead we see them enjoying on the beach, having fun... There are no innocent people there in the Gaza Strip... They are now enjoying on the beach, instead of starving, being jerked around, being severely tormented and hiding from shelling... We should have seen a lot more revenge, a lot more rivers of Gazans' blood"
Veteran Israel Hayom pseudo-journalist Yehuda Schlesinger goes on a maniacal genocidal rant, live on Channel 12, the most watched TV channel in Israel.

And Shai Davidai keeping Columbia relevant to this thread, i24: Over 100 arrested at anti-Israel protests at Columbia University

'What we are seeing now at Columbia is not ideological war, we are not seeing support for terrorism, we are seeing terrorism' @ShaiDavidai tells @Calev_i24

Yanyway, The Economist: The IDF is accused of military and moral failures in Gaza -
Its generals botched the strategy, and discipline among troops has broken down

Oh no not the troop discipline.
posted by cendawanita at 3:45 AM on April 22 [9 favorites]

I've made a post on the US university protests, specifically Columbia University.

Meanwhile, a baby was saved from her dying mother's womb after the Israeli airstrike in Rafah. Her mother, father, and 3 year old older sister were all killed in the airstrike. The baby was named Sabreen Erooh by her aunt, which means "soul of Sabreen," after her mother.
posted by toastyk at 7:27 AM on April 22 [6 favorites]

I'm sure feminist critique of Israel's behavior in the Palestinian territories exists, but remarkably little of receives mainstream media attention or makes its way into most discussions.

Feminist critique of Israel behavior in the Palestinian territories comes almost exclusively from Third World and women of color feminists. But it most definitely exists, even if NOW isn't doing it (though when was the last time NOW was relevant? 1980?).

Here's a great place to start.

To me and many other women of color feminists, Hillary Clinton is and long has been the embodiment of white feminism: a carceral, imperialist feminism rooted in white supremacy that focuses on the protection of (rich) white women's security over women of color's lives. It's people who think that the biggest problems Arab and Muslim women face is not being able to wear miniskirts and screeched a lot about "Woman, Life, Freedom" in Iran but have been completely silent about Palestine.

I think it's super similar to pinkwashing and how some major queer orgs (though they've largely back away from this claim) have been using the fact that Tel Aviv has a Pride Parade to justify Palestinian genocide. Fortunately, queer and trans folks are pretty ubiquitous in the movement for Palestinian freedom and largely haven't fallen for that nonsense.
posted by lizard2590 at 8:31 AM on April 22 [17 favorites]

Before I go to sleep, AJE live is showing the press conference of the Colonna report. Earlier Guardian reporting: Israel has yet to provide evidence of Unrwa staff terrorist links, Colonna report says -
Exclusive: Review finds government has yet to substantiate claims UN relief agency staff have ties to Hamas or Islamic Jihad

This is the investigation whose report the UK said it will base its decision to unfreeze their UNRWA funding or not.
posted by cendawanita at 10:12 AM on April 22 [6 favorites]

This isn't a direct response to anyone in this thread, but i'm putting it in here to try to rerail the other threads)

As i keep saying in, i think, every single one of the Gaza threads so far: a whole lot of you need to look up the word "bantustan", because the Palestinians have never actually been offered a state.

When Palestinians say they support a two-state solution, they mean they support an actual, autonomous, self-governing polity, with the usual prerogatives of a state (securing its own borders, setting its own domestic and foreign policy, maintaining a military, establishing a currency), with Israel withdrawing entirely behind the Green Line (or at least the 1967 borders). Israel is willing to offer literally none of that: not at Oslo, not at Camp David, and not now.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:08 PM on April 22 [12 favorites]

adrienneleigh, could you say a little more about this? My understanding was that Oslo was a framework for a future, better-defined agreement, but were these limitations you're describing baked into that initial agreement? The lack of military speaks for itself--but the proposed state would lack a currency as well?
posted by mittens at 5:26 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]

At the time, Edward Said called Oslo a "Palestinian Versailles":

What is particularly mystifying is how so many Palestinian leaders and their intellectuals can persist in speaking of the agreement as a ‘victory’. Nabil Shaath has called it one of ‘complete parity’ between Israelis and Palestinians. The fact is that Israel has conceded nothing, as former Secretary Of State James Baker said in a TV interview, except, blandly, the existence of ‘the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people’. Or as the Israeli ‘dove’ Amos Oz reportedly put it in the course of a BBC interview, ‘this is the second biggest victory in the history of Zionism.’

Rashid Khalidi, with the benefit of hindsight, wrote in 2015 (archive link):

Oslo was not designed to lead to Palestinian statehood or self-determination, in spite of what the P.L.O.’s leaders at the time appear to have believed. Rather, it was intended by Israel to streamline its occupation, with the Palestinian Authority acting as a subcontractor. In Oslo and subsequent accords, the Israelis were careful to exclude provisions that might lead to a Palestinian political entity with actual sovereignty. Palestinian statehood and self-determination are never mentioned in the text, nor were the Palestinians allowed jurisdiction over the entirety of the occupied territories. Israel’s intention is even more clearly visible in the expansion of illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, which followed the start of the Oslo process. There were fewer than two hundred thousand Israeli colonists in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem when negotiations began. Now, according to the Times, there are about six hundred and fifty thousand of them.
posted by i like crows very much at 7:27 PM on April 22 [11 favorites]

So you’ve finally identified the real(tm) villains — western feminists, particularly wealthy white ones, Chef Andres and World Central Kitchen.
posted by interogative mood at 8:49 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]

Lol. Anyway--

Re: the Colonna report - (UN) UNRWA report: UN chief stands with agency, backs findings of probe into 7 October attacks in Israel
The Final Report, led by former French foreign minister Catherine Colonna, was due to be released later on Monday; Ms. Colonna was also preparing to speak to journalists at a scheduled noon briefing in New York as Chair of the Independent Review Group on UNRWA.

“The Secretary-General accepts the recommendations contained in Ms. Colonna's report,” Mr. Guterres’s Spokesperson said in a statement. “He has agreed with (UNRWA) Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini that UNRWA - with the Secretary-General’s support - will establish an action plan to implement the recommendations contained in the Final Report.”

The independent review group presented interim report findings and recommendations to the UN Secretary-General four weeks ago. These included evidence that UNRWA had “a significant number of mechanisms and procedures to ensure compliance with the humanitarian principle of neutrality”, although “critical areas…still need to be addressed,” Mr. Guterres’s office noted at the time.

The review panel – working with respected research organizations the Raoul Wallenberg Institute, the Chr. Michelsen Institute and the Danish Institute for Human Rights – announced that it would proceed with developing concrete and realistic recommendations to strengthen and improve the agency.

Also on ABC (Aus): UNRWA report finds Palestinian aid group has robust neutrality framework, no evidence for Israeli claims of terrorist infiltration

Reuters: Israeli troops storm back into eastern Khan Younis (do they need the cardio?)
Of interest to note here: In the ruins of what had been Nasser hospital, the biggest in southern Gaza, Reuters saw emergency workers in white hazmat suits digging corpses out of the ground with hand tools and a digger truck.
The emergency services said 73 more bodies had been found at the site in the past day, raising the number found over the week to 283.

Israel says it was forced to battle inside hospitals because Hamas fighters operated there, which medical staff and Hamas deny.

Gaza authorities say the bodies recovered so far are from just one of at least three mass graves they have found at the site.

"We expect to find another 200 bodies at the same mass grave in the coming two days before we will begin working at the two other cemeteries," Ismail Al-Thawabta, director of the Hamas-run government media office, told Reuters.
He accused Israel of carrying out "executions" at the hospital and covering up the crimes by burying bodies with a bulldozer. Israel strongly denies having carried out executions.

B'tselem: Manufacturing Famine: Israel is Committing the War Crime of Starvation in the Gaza Strip
I n this document, we review the current scale of the hunger crisis in the Gaza Strip, its short and long term impacts, Israel’s conduct with respect to this issue and the legal implications of this conduct. We rely on the most recent figures and data available.

Based on various reports from international bodies about the situation in Gaza and on testimonies gathered by B'Tselem's field researchers, we unfortunately conclude that for months, Israel has been committing the crime of starvation under international law in the Gaza Strip.

New Arab: Exclusive: Pro-Palestine activists defy Israel with Gaza-bound aid flotilla -
TNA meets activists from Freedom Flotilla Coalition on the Akdeniz ship seeking to break the Israeli siege on Gaza, hoping to bring relief to its people
The acquisition of the Akdeniz was made possible through the support of four million donors worldwide. Organised by the Freedom Flotilla Coalition (FFC), a coalition of 12 countries including Turkey, in partnership with İnsani Yardım Vakfı (IHH), the mission aims to break the deadly siege that has severely impacted the lives of the people of Gaza for years amid Israel's genocidal war that has killed over 33,000 Palestinians since October 7.

I can't seem to easily find the full press conference the FF people gave, outside their tweet here.

There's also this interview with Dylan Saba, one of the Palestinian activists on board the flotilla: The Coming Freedom Flotilla: An Interview With Dylan Saba -
A new aid flotilla to Gaza will be sailing to break the blockade on the Strip. Palestinian-American lawyer, writer, and journalist Dylan Saba will be on that flotilla.

(In Malaysia also there's some coverage because of the local connection)
--

Al-Jazeera: Israeli spy chief quits as pressure over October 7 failures rises - Aharon Haliva is first Israeli official to take responsibility for failing to prevent Hamas attack or recent Iranian counterstrike.
Speaking to Al Jazeera, political analyst Yossi Mekelberg said as the conflict drags on with no end in sight, Haliva’s move to quit seemed inevitable.

“Something is rotten in the kingdom of Israeli intelligence,” Mekelberg, associate fellow at the British think tank Chatham House, said.

“The pressure on Haliva was immense”, he said, adding, not just for the October 7 failures, but also for failing to gauge the Iranian response to the Israeli attack on its consular building in the Syrian capital, Damascus, which pushed the region to the brink of war.

“They left the country and the region on edge – it seems that no one warned [of] the possibility of more than 300 missiles, including ballistic, [being launched] against Israel,” Mekelberg added.

While Haliva and others have accepted blame for failing to stop the attack, others have stopped short, most notably Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who has said he will answer tough questions about his role but has not outright acknowledged direct responsibility for allowing the attack to unfold.

Instead, he continues to present a bullish front, insisting on pushing forward with the military campaign in Gaza in an apparent bid to outlast the political pressure, which has grown both at home and internationally.

Omar Ashour, from the Doha Institute for Graduate Studies suggested Haliva’s resignation letter was “a clear nudge or dig” at Israel’s leader to follow suit and quit.

“But knowing Netanyahu it’s highly unlikely to shift his position,” the analyst continued. “We’ll have to wait and see, there are always surprises in this war.”
posted by cendawanita at 9:22 PM on April 22 [10 favorites]

For Americans:
Jennifer Jajeh: BREAKING: the US is pressuring the Turkish government to prevent @GazaFFlotilla from departing & bringing 1000 activists and urgent humanitarian aid to Gaza. The US is repeatedly blocking all life saving attempts to protect Gaza’s 2 million civilians & aiding Israel’s genocide.

(...) Call STATE DEPT to demand they stop blocking the #gazafreedomflotilla : Correct number is 202-647-4000, press option 4 to speak to an operator and ask them to transfer you to comment line. Once they transfer you, press option 8 to record a comment.

Also suggesting calls to US Consulate in Istanbul:
+90 212 335 9000
Also suggesting calls to US Embassy in Ankara:
+90 312 294 0000
Turkey is 10 hours ahead, so call tonight after 9 or 10PM PST
posted by cendawanita at 12:10 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]

So you’ve finally identified the real(tm) villains — western feminists, particularly wealthy white ones, Chef Andres and World Central Kitchen.

I genuinely love you and your comments. After a fashion. Please never change!
posted by lizard2590 at 3:23 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]

BBC: UNRWA: Restart aid to Palestinian UN agency, EU urges

Al-Jazeera : Israeli military intelligence chief resignation will put peers on the spot -
Haliva also called for establishing an investigative committee, in what would be a first step towards accountability for failures surrounding October 7.
Hmmm: "The 57-year-old, a 38-year veteran of the Israeli military, said he would leave his post once a replacement is found."

It is not clear what led Halavi to make such a move now – with Israel’s assault on Gaza still ongoing, exchanges of fire between Hezbollah and Israel increasing, and tensions with Iran at an all-time high.

But by deciding to resign, observers say, Halavi sent a signal that the time for accountability has come.

“Authority comes with responsibility,” Haliva wrote in his letter, in what some believe was a hint, and an invite, to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Micah Sirfry in his newsletter: Palestine and the "Anti-Imperialism of Fools" -
And why we should applaud Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD) for his courageous No vote on unconditional supplemental military aid to the Israel of Bibi Netanyahu
Voices of the American Jewish establishment, like the JCRC of DC, are continuing to show terrible political judgment. Instead of continuing to line up slavishly behind the Netanyahu government and its disastrous policies of endless war, settlement expansion and humiliation of Palestinians, they should be searching for ways to de-escalate the conflict. We shouldn’t applaud arsonists; we should applaud fire-fighters. And friends don’t let friends drive drunk. For the last several years, Raskin has been one of most effective and important leaders we have in Congress working to defend the rule of law and democracy in America. I’m not surprised to see him extend that concern to insisting that American and international law be followed by American allies, as these concerns are all threads in the same weave. Instead of chastising him, the JCRC should have backed him. For if signals like Raskin’s aren’t followed, the fragile coalition behind Biden’s current presidency may not be strong enough to prevent a second Trump term. Which will make the current carnage look like a picnic.

His second half is basically about what he thinks of the current Jewish activism for Palestine (with his sympathies being shown by echoing/quoting Noah Smith, so YMMV), and I think misrepresents the implications of a one-step solution that he was hearing and this is reminding me to share the following longreads from the liberal zionist set (that he also linked to):

(Haaretz; Yuval Noah Harari): From Gaza to Iran, the Netanyahu Government Is Endangering Israel's Survival -
Israel is facing a historic defeat, the bitter fruit of years of disastrous policies. If the country now prioritizes vengeance over its own best interests, it will put itself and the entire region in grave danger

(NYT; Nicholas Kristoff): What Happened to the Joe Biden I Knew?
---
In any case, when I had these tabs open it's been noted the mass graves haven't been given any prominence in NYT coverage. Has that changed?

CNN: More than 300 bodies found in mass grave at Gaza hospital, says Gaza Civil Defense
A CNN stringer who visited the scene Sunday said people had buried the bodies of family members who had been killed in the grounds of the hospital in January as a temporary measure. When they returned after the Israeli withdrawal they found the bodies had been exhumed – apparently because the IDF was using DNA testing to determine whether any of the hostages held in Gaza were among the dead.

The bodies were then placed in at least one collective grave, the stringer said.

(...) Saqr told CNN Sunday that Civil Defence personnel had been searching for bodies at the medical complex for three days so far and the operation was ongoing.

“We have information that there are 400 missing people, and we are continuing to search for the rest of the bodies.”

UN : Mass graves in Gaza show victims’ hands were tied, says UN rights office
The development follows the recovery of hundreds of bodies “buried deep in the ground and covered with waste” over the weekend at Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, central Gaza, and at Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City in the north. A total of 283 bodies were recovered at Nasser Hospital, of which 42 were identified.

“Among the deceased were allegedly older people, women and wounded, while others were found tied with their hands…tied and stripped of their clothes,” said Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Open Canada: Can a Watered-Down Motion Really Make a Difference? On Accountability for War Crimes in Israel-Palestine, the Answer is Yes -
While Canada’s House of Commons won’t recognize Palestinian statehood it has reversed direction on the role of the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court
It has now been confirmed by sources involved in the negotiations over the motion as well as by Stephen Brown, CEO of the National Council of Canadian Muslims, that the Liberals sought to kibosh any mention of support for the ICC’s work in Palestine.

Against the backdrop of an ever-growing trove of credible allegations of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocidal acts by Hamas and Israeli forces, the government’s reluctance to support the ICC has been staggering. But it also fits a pattern: neither Conservative nor Liberal governments have ever supported the ICC (or the International Court of Justice) when it comes to Palestine because it does not recognize Palestine as a state, unlike many other countries.

But now the Liberal government has officially said it supports the work of both in Palestine. In the wake of the motion’s passage Foreign Minister Melanie Joly announced that Canada is committed to its contents: “This is clearly the intent of this government, to make sure that we follow what is written in this motion. And that is why we’ve worked very hard to make sure that we could get to a text where we could abide by it.”

This is a potential game changer. It represents the first time ever that a Canadian government has expressed support for any accountability process for war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide committed in Palestine and Israel. Before the motion passed, Canadian governments of both Conservative and Liberal stripes, as mentioned, had opposed every single independent, impartial, and international effort to investigate and prosecute international crimes carried out in Palestine and Israel.

The question that remains is: what will “support the work” of the ICC and the “prosecution of all crimes” mean?

New Arab: The four-country push in Europe to recognise Palestine as a state -
Analysis: Amid an often-paralysing need for unanimity in EU foreign policy decisions, four countries are pushing ahead to recognise Palestine.
The current push for Palestine’s recognition promoted by Spain, Ireland, Malta, and Slovenia stems from a critical position regarding Israel’s occupation of Palestine and the ongoing war in Gaza. This is somewhat of a new development, as the map of EU countries recognising Palestine has not until now necessarily reflected their stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The bulk of EU members recognising Palestine are Eastern European countries that took the step in 1988 when these countries still belonged to the Soviet bloc. The group known as the Visegrád Four (Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, and Slovakia) all recognise Palestine but are among the staunchest supporters of Israel within the EU. The ties between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán are particularly close and long-standing.

(...)Convincing countries in the Global South that Russia needed to be shunned due to its full-scale invasion of Ukraine was already complicated enough before the beginning of the war in Gaza. The conflict in Ukraine has often been perceived as a European matter, although its ramifications in terms of food security and energy prices have been global.

Some European leaders, as observed in several speeches by Spanish Prime Minister Sánchez, are concerned that Europe’s inaction regarding the Gaza War is endangering support for Ukraine in its war against Russia. Indeed, Europe is highly vulnerable to claims of double standards every time it condemns Russian attacks against civilians in Ukraine but remains silent in the face of similar Israeli attacks in Gaza.

The recognition of Palestine by some EU countries will not have direct practical implications. However, it might succeed in delivering two key messages. First, that an increasingly radical Israeli government that expands the occupation of the West Bank and subjects Gaza to inhuman conditions cannot dictate the timing and form of Palestine’s recognition. Second, that there are relevant differences in how different EU countries approach the occupation of Palestine and the ongoing war in Gaza.

Invezz: S&P ratings agency has downgraded Israel. What does it mean?
The agency released a statement on the matter saying:

On April 18, 2024, S&P Global Ratings lowered its long-term foreign and local currency sovereign credit ratings on Israel to ‘A+’ from ‘AA-‘ and the short-term ratings to ‘A-1’ from ‘A-1+’. The outlook on the long-term ratings is negative. We also revised the transfer and convertibility assessment to ‘AA’ from ‘AA+’.”

Unsurprisingly, the decision was based on Israel’s continuing conflict with Iran and the financial instability caused by the costs of the war for the nation.
The Moody’s agency decision

This is Israel’s second vote of no confidence from a ratings agency, after fellow ratings agency Moody’s Investors Service downgraded Israel on February 9th.
With Moody’s, Israel’s foreign-currency and local-currency senior unsecured ratings went from an A1 to an A2 rating, and the foreign-currency senior unsecured shelf and senior unsecured MTN programme ratings both went from a (P)A1 to a (P)A2 rating, with a negative outlook.

This was Israel’s first-ever ratings downgrade in the history of the nation, only to be swiftly followed by a second one within less than three months.

Meanwhile, the third of the world’s major bond-rating agencies, Fitch Ratings, upgraded its rating of Israel earlier this month on April 2nd.

The agency has removed Israel from Rating Watch Negative (RWN), after having given it the negative rating in October last year. Fitch also affirmed the Long-Term Foreign-Currency Issuer Default Rating (IDR) at ‘A+’, albeit with a Negative Outlook.

Random but my nose is itching: (AA) Türkiye's President Erdogan, Iraqi counterpart discuss Gaza, counterterrorism - Recep Tayyip Erdogan meets with Abdul Latif Rashid for first official visit to Iraq by a Turkish president in 13 years
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 PM on April 23 [6 favorites]

Hmm, I wonder if this means that the Berlin police will have to arrest Germany: (Reuters) Germany to resume cooperation with Palestinian UNRWA agency
posted by cendawanita at 1:58 AM on April 24 [4 favorites]

Guardian: ‘Smokescreen’: officials voice concern over US plans for Gaza aid pier -
Fears Israel is influencing location of dock away from the north, where famine threat is most severe
The dock has been built off US naval vessels and is expected to be in position by early May. According to several aid officials, the current plan is to anchor it not off northern Gaza, where the threat of famine is most severe, but at a point halfway up the strip where the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have a stronghold.

That would mean that food aid brought in via the dock would still have to pass through an IDF checkpoint at the Netzarim corridor, a military road that bisects the strip, and which has been a choke-point stopping humanitarian deliveries reaching the north.

Some UN and other humanitarian officials fear that the aid will be diverted south to camps set up for the more than 1 million people now sheltering in Rafah. The IDF wants them to move out so that it can conduct an offensive against Hamas units in Gaza’s southernmost city.

Such an offensive would inevitably mean the temporary closure of Rafah and Kerem Shalom crossings in southern Gaza, so the US-made floating dock would serve as a substitute, while at the same time diverting pressure on Israel to open northern crossing points to substantial aid traffic.

“One of the key arguments for having a dock was to put it further north so that suppliers could come in more directly to the north,” a UN official said, adding that what was actually being proposed looked more like a “smokescreen to enable the Israelis to invade Rafah”.

(...) The question of who should deliver food around Gaza had been argued over for some weeks before Friday, when the US humanitarian and development agency USAid announced an agreement with the UN’s World Food Programme (WFP).

The agreement was controversial within the UN as its agencies had previously agreed that all aid operations in Gaza should involve the Unrwa, the relief agency for Palestinian refugees across the region, which Israel is trying to sideline.

It was clear from the announcements on Friday that not everything had been worked out.

“Operational conversations continue with WFP to ensure safe and sustainable delivery of humanitarian assistance to Palestinian civilians in Gaza in an independent, neutral, and impartial manner,” a USAid spokesperson said. “This is a complex operation that requires coordination between many partners, and our conversations are ongoing.”

The WFP announcement was even more tentative. “The UN has agreed to work with the US and other partners on the maritime corridor as an additional route for relief to Gaza, on the condition that humanitarian principles can be ensured and that land access is also expanded,” a spokesperson said.

The UN agencies are nervous about becoming too identified with an IDF mechanism for delivering aid.

“The perception that would be created of humanitarians operating alongside the IDF in any way, shape, or form, would be ruinous for the reputation of humanitarians in Gaza. We would be seen to be collaborating,” a UN official said. “It would of course have knock-on consequences in terms of our safety and acceptance inside of Gaza.”

Stephen Morrison, senior vice-president at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said the UN was highly resistant to the idea, but that they were “getting pushed and pulled”.

“What is unclear is: does this lead to the further degradation and marginalisation of UNRWA?” he said.

So, in this interview with The New Arab (in Arabic) with a Hamas top future, the claim is that Yahya Sinwar isn't just still around, but he's not even in the tunnels exclusively - man's walking around in the open air in Gaza. Man, what is with the targeting sights for the IDF in Gaza?

Coincidentally this might offer some insight, only came out today, a whistleblower account from someone who served in this current operations: (Channel 4 exclusive) Israeli soldier speaks out on war in Gaza: It’s rare to hear from soldiers who’ve served on the ground, but tonight one Israeli soldier tells us that what he witnessed turned him against Israel’s war.

He’s voiced by an actor to protect his ID

And just posted on The Nation:
“The Bulldozer Kept Coming”: A Girl Stares Down Death in Gaza -
The extraordinary story of a 14-year-old, her mother, and what happened when the Israeli military came to destroy their house.
Note from the translator: This story was originally written in Arabic by a 14-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza named Lujayn. Along with one of Lujayn’s relatives, I have translated it into English. She initially wrote this story for her mother and then decided to share it with the world. It recounts her family’s forced displacement from the house where they were sheltering in Khan Younis. This was the fourth time Lujayn had been displaced since Israel’s assault on Gaza began.

Lujayn describes an increasingly common tactic of the Israeli military in her narrative: bulldozing buildings with people still inside. In addition, Lujayn’s story serves as a warning to the world about the dangers of Israel’s threatened invasion of Rafah. If she were displaced again, she and her family would have nowhere to go.

Lujayn is a brilliant student. She had been planning to go to university to study mathematics. But there are no more universities left in Gaza, and Lujayn has no permanent home. All she can do right now is survive and tell her story. For Lujayn as for many Palestinians, storytelling is a form of resistance. She asks the international community to take action to stop the Israeli military from killing her friends and threatening to kill her mother, her family, and herself. She particularly asks that the people of the United States of America pressure their elected representatives to stop funding Israel’s genocide.

—Rebecca Ruth Gould
posted by cendawanita at 9:52 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]

Hamas released a video on telegram of one of the hostages American Hersh Goldberg-Polin who was living with his family in Jerusalem and was taken at the Nova music festival. This article contains the full video. Previous graphic video from the festival had shown Hersh losing his arm as he attempted to protect other from a grenade. In this video his arm appears to have healed but he had lost his hand and part of his forearm. Hersh begs the Israeli government to accept cease fire proposals from Hamas so that he and his fellow hostages can return to their families. He also states that over 70 hostages have died during Israeli bombardment. He is probably reading from a script, written or approved by his captors. We don’t know exactly when the the video was created; but it is likely fairly recent. It has been reported that Israeli authorities got the video about 2 days ago and have been working to authenticate it and extract other information.
posted by interogative mood at 3:56 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]

Yeah, statements made in hostage videos should never be taken at face value -- this applies to the video of Goldberg-Polin just as much as to Israel's many instances of video "confessions" by captured Palestinians .

Still, there are a few noteworthy things about the video: for instance, despite being in an area actively under siege and bombardment, he is clearly being fed adequately and he obviously got vastly better medical care than Palestinian hostages ever get from Israel.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:54 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]

(I should note that by "fed adequately" i mean "at least as well as any actual Palestinian civilians are being fed", which isn't really adequate. Gaza residents weren't being allowed enough calories even BEFORE October 7. But it means that despite absolutely dire circumstances, Hamas is not letting the hostages starve.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:58 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]

I think that no matter what crimes Israel has committed this is one of those circumstances where you don't actually under any circumstances have to hand it to Hamas, as dril put it in his famous tweet. It's Hamas. They know how to do propaganda just like Israel does.
posted by Justinian at 7:06 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]

Al-Jazeera: Satellite images show new Israeli military outposts near Gaza -
Nine Israeli military outposts have been established near Gaza during the war according to satellite images verified by Al Jazeera, as experts warn an Israeli invasion of Rafah could be imminent.
posted by cendawanita at 7:58 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]

Reuters (via Malay Mail): Israel says it is poised to move on Rafah
But Israel’s closest ally Washington has called on it to set aside plans for an assault, and says Israel can combat Hamas fighters there by other means.

“We could not support a Rafah ground operation without an appropriate, credible, executable humanitarian plan precisely because of the complications for delivery of assistance,” David Satterfield, US special envoy for Middle East humanitarian issued, told reporters on Tuesday.

“We continue discussions with Israel on what we believe are alternate ways of addressing a challenge which we recognise, which is Hamas military present in Rafah.”

Egypt says it will not allow Gazans to be pushed across the border onto its territory. Cairo had warned Israel against moving on Rafah, which “would lead to massive human massacres, losses (and) widespread destruction”, its State Information Service said.

Finally saw the NYT coverage on the mass graves yesterday: U.N. Calls for Inquiry Into Mass Graves at 2 Gaza Hospitals -
Palestinian officials said scores of bodies had been found, some shot in the head, at one hospital after Israeli forces withdrew. Israel said it had dug up and reburied some bodies in a search for hostages.

The count as it stood in that article is 283 (recall that CNN filed 300). And 3 hours ago, Mohammad Alsaafin: "The number of bodies recovered from the mass grave in Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis is 348 as of Wednesday, but local rescue crews are still digging."

Gallup: Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza -
Approval has dropped from 50% to 36% since November
Seventy-four percent of U.S. adults say they are following news of the Israeli-Hamas situation closely, similar to the 72% Gallup measured in November. One-third of Americans (34%) say they are following the situation “very closely.”

Disapproval of Israel’s military action is similar regardless of how much attention Americans are paying to the conflict. However, those paying less attention are more likely than their counterparts to have no opinion on the matter, resulting in lower approval than seen among people paying greater attention.

+972: I got out of Gaza. But I’m still trapped by the war -
I left my family in Shuja’iya, crossed an Israeli army checkpoint, and spent weeks in a tent in Rafah in order to leave the Strip. The decision still haunts me.
posted by cendawanita at 9:34 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]

Democracy Now: Bodies Recovered at Mass Graves in Nasser Hospital Bear Signs of Torture, Mutilation & Execution
Quoting specifically this bit because I'm thinking about the earlier threads: Some of the bodies were extremely mutilated, which means that those bodies, some of their organs were taken by the Israeli occupation.
posted by cendawanita at 10:26 AM on April 25 [5 favorites]

Still, there are a few noteworthy things about the video: for instance, despite being in an area actively under siege and bombardment, he is clearly being fed adequately and he obviously got vastly better medical care than Palestinian hostages ever get from Israel.

This is such an absurd level of minimization of a war crime with a side of whataboutism that it reads like something that the Israeli spokesperson would say about a Palestinian captive. Making a video of a captive is considered a war crime, making the subject the video beg for their life is torture.

As for the claims of adequate nourishment and medical care. We have no actual medical assessment of his initial injury. He suffered what appeared to be a significant injury at the festival prior to being captured. We see in the video that the limb was amputated somewhere in the middle of the forearm. The ICRC has not had access to Palestinian or Israeli captives and no one knows if specific interventions like this amputation were medically necessary or even the result of a complication related to how the wound was treated.

A simple comparison of old photos with Mr Goldberg-Polin and the video shows he has experienced chronic undernourishment. As evidence one can point to the loss of fatty tissues on his face, shrinking of his neck width, the loss of musculature on his arms (ignoring the fact that he's lost part of one of his lower forearms), as well as how his shirt hangs down from his shoulders.

None of this excuses or justifies Israel treatment of its own captives. Just as Israel's conduct does not justify the behavior of Hamas towards its captives.
posted by interogative mood at 1:52 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]

A simple comparison of old photos with Mr Goldberg-Polin and the video shows he has experienced chronic undernourishment.

Yes; and i'm not sure if you've noticed, but so is literally everyone else in Gaza.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]

(Also, I'm not justifying or whatabouting. I agree that taking civilian hostages is a war crime. I agree that taking film and video of hostages is a war crime. Nobody's war crimes justify anyone else's war crimes. But it's still the case that he has obviously received medical care, whereas Palestinian hostages kept by Israel are abused and brutalized.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:17 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]

All of them? Israel abuses and brutalizes literally all prisoners? And all of the Israeli hostages are treated "well"? You know this for a fact?

Come on, you do not, under any circumstances, gotta hand it to Hamas.
posted by Justinian at 8:30 PM on April 25

Without handing it to Hamas, I do look forward to being able to validate either claim once the Israeli hostages are returned, because right now we have a trickle of Palestinian ones (among whom are getting rekidnapped) and they don't look so good.

Speaking of the Israelis, this one came out yesterday in Hebrew press, and I'll just use Prem Thakker's summary that has a translated screenshot (I double checked with mine):
Wow—Former spokesperson for hostage families says Hamas offered to immediately release all hostages if IDF didn't invade Gaza "but the government rejected the proposal."
Says families weren't notified about invasion + risks it could pose.
"Netanyahu has thwarted" hostage release.

In the meantime, in ethnic cleansing news, tweet from Hind Khoury: Over 80,000 Palestinians have fled to Egypt since 7 October.
Source: Palestinian ambassador to Egypt

Related: (Al-Jazeera) What is Israel’s bulldozer strategy in the occupied West Bank?

Israeli soldiers raiding the occupied West Bank are regularly accompanied by bulldozers razing their way through Palestinian neighbourhoods. Al Jazeera’s Nada Qaddourah looks at what’s behind this bulldozer strategy.

TL;DR building a coercive environment that induces people to leave.
posted by cendawanita at 8:42 PM on April 25 [10 favorites]

Addressing this sleight-of-hand: Israel abuses and brutalizes literally all prisoners? - I don't suppose testimonies of systemic violence and treatment will do? You'll only need one example of good treatment after all. This is like talking about the rapes and sexual violence. Only one instance is enough for Palestinians but nothing is ever sufficiently systemic if it's Israeli? Because it's not like it's not been reported... Is it because only liberal Israel press eg Haaretz reports about it? Does it not exist if American media isn't there to mediate reality?
posted by cendawanita at 8:53 PM on April 25 [15 favorites]

All of them? Israel abuses and brutalizes literally all prisoners? And all of the Israeli hostages are treated "well"? You know this for a fact?

What's the point of this conversational tangent? I'm very confused about why we went from talking about mass graves to having to prove whether or not "Israel abuses and brutalizes literally all prisoners"? Like for what purpose? As a fun logic game?
posted by lizard2590 at 9:02 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]

I'm really enjoying liberal takes and liberal framings getting less and less traction here on the blue.
posted by CPAnarchist at 9:10 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]

I'm very confused about why we went from talking about mass graves to having to prove whether or not "Israel abuses and brutalizes literally all prisoners"? Like for what purpose? As a fun logic game?

i think you said it yourself: the point of the tangent is just that someone wants us all to talk about absolutely anything except the mass graves.
posted by busted_crayons at 9:18 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]

There has been a lot of breaking news. Hamas released a video of one of their captives and people reacted to it and we've discussed that reaction. Mass graves have been found in the rubble of Gaza's hospitals.

Torture, abuse and rape of those held captive by Israel and Palestine/Hamas is widespread. Pretending that one side is doing a better job than the other is not supported by evidence. It bothers me that some of you think it is ok to justify it when what you perceive as "your side" is doing it.

The UN is investigating the graves. Israel denies that they were responsible and claims these graves were made by Hamas/ Palestinians. I don't believe their denial; but we'll see how the investigation plays out.
posted by interogative mood at 9:40 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]

A day ago: (AP) Hamas official says group would lay down its arms if an independent Palestinian state is established
But it’s unlikely Israel would consider such a scenario. It has vowed to crush Hamas following the deadly Oct. 7 attacks that triggered the war, and its current leadership is adamantly opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state on lands Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war.

Chinhands:

- Reuters (2 days ago): Israeli push to legalize settlements in West Bank 'dangerous and reckless,' US says

- Guardian (today): US troops begin construction of Gaza aid pier as questions remain over distribution - About 1,000 US troops will support the military construction efforts, but Joe Biden has ordered them not to set foot on the Gaza shore
Concerns about the risk to American troops getting caught up in the conflict were underscored on Thursday as news emerged of a mortar attack near the area where the pier will eventually touch ground. No US forces were present, however a UN team inspecting the site were forced to take shelter.

- Axios (3 hours ago): State Department reviewing plans to sanction IDF unit
The State Department has put on hold its intention to impose sanctions on the Israel Defense Forces "Netzah Yehuda" battalion for human rights violations in the occupied West Bank and is reviewing the issue in light of information Israel provided in recent days, U.S. sources familiar with the issue said.

Why it matters: The review is part of a consultation process outlined in an agreement between the U.S. and Israel. But Secretary of State Antony Blinken has also been under extensive pressure from the Israeli government, members of Congress and some senior Biden administration officials to reconsider the possible sanctions.

(...) Behind the scenes: In recent days, there have been several phone calls between IDF and Israeli Foreign Ministry lawyers and State Department officials, during which Israel shared new information about the Netzah Yehuda battalion, Israeli and U.S. officials said.

- An Israeli official said the new information focused on a Tik-Tok video from 2022 in which soldiers from the battalion filmed themselves abusing Palestinian detainees.
- The Israeli official noted that the video was a central part of the U.S. claim against the battalion and said Israel presented the State Department with information about the investigations into the incident and the disciplinary steps taken.
- Israel clarified there were no civil law suits against the soldiers because no complaint was filed by Palestinians.

Mmhmm: (Haaretz, 2 days ago) Top Israeli Officials Acknowledge Failure of Campaign to Halt UNRWA International Funding - Germany joined the list of countries that announced they will be renewing funding to the UN agency for Palestinian refugees. Israel is concerned that the U.K. and U.S. will also reverse their decision to freeze funding
Political sources in Israel have acknowledged in talks with foreign diplomats in recent days that Jerusalem had not succeeded in influencing the report in the way it had had hoped, and that it is clear following the report's publication, other countries will join Germany and renew funding for the agency. According to reports published over the weekend, the United Kingdom is also now considering renewing funding to UNRWA.

(...) An Israeli source involved in the diplomatic effort to halt funding to UNRWA told Haaretz that the failure was not in the field of public relations and communications, but rather stemmed from the lack of a convincing alternative to UNRWA.

Why worry about the US tho? Look at the student protest thread.
posted by cendawanita at 10:12 AM on April 26 [5 favorites]

Axios (3 hours ago): State Department reviewing plans to sanction IDF unit

Even the smallest attempt to do anything is apparently too much for the monsters in the White House.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:55 AM on April 26 [5 favorites]

The Hamas proposal is similar to the one they’ve made in the past. In return for a Palestinian State using 1967 border they will agree to a truce of at least 5 years. There is one minor change in that they’ve changed from offering a “a long term cease fire”, to putting a minimum time limit of 5 years.

When the leaders are serious about peace they will come with offers that includes recognition and borders. At the moment the PA is the only entity that has put anything like that on the table in the last 20 years.

A border proposal and mutual recognition is the most straightforward part of negotiations. The hard problems are things like return of refugees, water fishing and mineral rights, security agreements, the holy sites, status of minority communities within the other territory, trade and labor agreements, etc

When Egypt and Israel got serious about peace Sadat got on a plane and flew to Israel met with Begen and put a line on a map.
posted by interogative mood at 11:54 AM on April 26

Torture, abuse and rape of those held captive by Israel and Palestine/Hamas is widespread. Pretending that one side is doing a better job than the other is not supported by evidence. It bothers me that some of you think it is ok to justify it when what you perceive as "your side" is doing it.

Oh okay, got it! Thanks for the recap.

I remain beyond perplexed by why we are comparing 'sides' and which 'side' is doing less or more "torture, abuse and rape" of those they've imprisoned. I thought this thread was about the unfolding genocide and not some sort of bizarre compare/contrast of Israeli and Hamas war crimes. In what way would it be helpful or meaningful to decide who is doing a "better job" of not torturing, abusing and raping their prisoners?
posted by lizard2590 at 11:57 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]

What's the point of this conversational tangent?

It's not a tangent when somebody brings up a Hamas video and tries to use it as an example of Hamas purportedly behaving better than Israel. That will always deserve pushback.

It's a comment thread, multiple simultaneous things can be talked about at once. And in fact are being talked about at once.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]

Gaza pier: US begins building floating base to boost aid

Expected to be operational in the next couple of weeks and be able to deliver enough aid per day to feed almost the entire population of Gaza.
posted by Justinian at 1:28 PM on April 26

It's a comment thread, multiple simultaneous things can be talked about at once. And in fact are being talked about at once.

Cool, thanks for clarifying.

Anyway, here's an interesting article about the 2016 film, "The Occupation of the American Mind"--around media coverage of the Israeli occupation. The movie was widely condemned as 'anti-Semitic' apparently (by the usual suspects--ADL etc.--it clearly isn't actually and includes mostly interviews with anti-Zionist Jews working against the occupation) when it came out but given the major Overton window shifts around this issue over the last few months, it seems like it's being screened more widely.

The directors connect media coverage of Gaza with coverage of Vietnam and Iraq:

DZ: You are experts on how the media shapes the Israel-Palestine narrative. What have you seen the media do since October 7?

SJ: As we show in our film, which came out in 2016, US and Israeli officials have been able to routinely transmit pro-Israel propaganda through the mainstream media without any kind of real pushback or debate for decades. Well, since October 7, pro-Israel propaganda has been on steroids. Over the past few months, a number of studies have shown consistent pro-Israel bias in leading newspapers and news broadcasts, allowing atrocity propaganda like the now-debunked beheaded babies stories to circulate without challenge. We’ve also seen journalists at CNN and The New York Times leak memos and release anonymous statements blasting editorial restrictions on their reporting, criticizing tight controls on the kinds of language they’re allowed to use, and talking about how these restrictions and controls have worked to dehumanize Palestinians and create an overwhelming pro-Israel slant.

LA: These are the same propaganda patterns we’ve been analyzing in our films for years when it comes to wars waged by the US or with US backing, from Vietnam to Iraq. First and foremost, there’s been no sustained coverage of the US’s role in Israel’s mass killing of Palestinians. Instead, it appears the US is doing everything in its power to help protect Palestinian civilians and restrain Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The extent of US complicity in Israeli atrocities in Gaza, especially the fact we’re supplying most of the weapons to carry them out, is mostly hidden from view. Likewise, in keeping with media coverage of other US and US-backed wars in the past, the killing of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians has been repeatedly described as “unintended” and “unfortunate” rather than the entirely predictable result of Israel dropping tens of thousands of US-made bombs on civilian centers in Gaza. In addition, we now know that reporters have been encouraged by their bosses to use sanitizing language to describe the horrors unfolding in Gaza, to avoid using words and phrases like “ethnic cleansing,” “genocide,” and “occupied territories.” As media critic Norman Solomon has argued, the result is a dominant media narrative that tells Americans that Israeli lives matter a lot more than Palestinian lives.
posted by lizard2590 at 1:49 PM on April 26 [8 favorites]

lizard2590: i think it's mostly because i'm just not willing anymore to stipulate that Hamas is 10% more evil than Israel or whatever.

Look. I don't like Hamas! As a party, they are a bunch of repressive right-wing shitheads! But i'm sick to death of pretending that they are—or have ever been—more than like 1/1000 of the problem. And i'm also sick to death of pretending that, in a world where the US is happily allied with Saudi fucking Arabia, the designation of Hamas as a "terrorist organization" has a single goddamn thing to do with them being repressive right-wing shitheads!

Look, i'm a leftist, and in some hypothetical reality where Palestinians gave a shit about my opinion on who should be elected to govern a free Palestine, i would tell them to vote for the PFLP. (Which is also, btw, designated a "terrorist organization" by the US and Israel.) But currently, do you know who's the only organized and ground-effective force that is working at all toward the idea of there ever being future elections in Palestine—or, for that matter, for the existence of a Palestine to hold elections in? Hamas! Do you know who else fucking knows that? The PFLP. "Hamas is a vital part of the Palestinian national movement, and this is the position of the PFLP."

I, too, definitely wish Hamas would stop committing war crimes! War crimes: not even once!!! But they do have the absolute right, under international law, to wage armed resistance against soldiers and settlers.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:42 PM on April 26 [12 favorites]

Exclusive: USAID officials say Israel breached US directive on Gaza aid

Not an outlet I am familiar with, but looks credible based on a cursory examination. Not really news in terms of revelations, just who is willing to say it - will be interesting to see if there's enough internal dissent among US agencies to force some kind of action.
posted by ndr at 5:44 PM on April 26 [7 favorites]

Huh - Devex. That's basically a decent no-waves shop talk comms site in my line of work (international development), with a jobs board etc. It's legit.
posted by cendawanita at 6:00 PM on April 26 [6 favorites]

lizard2590: i think it's mostly because i'm just not willing anymore to stipulate that Hamas is 10% more evil than Israel or whatever.

Oh yeah, I'm totally with you on that. Obviously, I'm not a Hamas fan--as a queer and AFAB person, Islamist extremists are not really my favorite thing. But they've caused about one millionth of the damage that the IOF has to Gaza and at this point, seven months into a genocide committed by the IOF, demanding rote condemnations of their behavior is clearly just a diversionary tactic.

Also, we talk a lot about the trauma of the Shoah and how it has formed Israeli national character but very little about how the extraordinary trauma of the last 75 years has formed Palestinian national character--how the vast majority of Hamas fighters are certainly living with that trauma and it, without question, informs their politics and behavior. That is a bit of a third rail in Western-dominated discussions of Palestine because we don't want to humanize terrorists or whatever. But, you know, many of the little boys watching their parents and siblings get blown up and starved to death are the Hamas fighters of tomorrow and I have very little sense of who I would be and what my politics would be if I had grown up the way they have.

There is very little data out there about who Hamas fighters actually are (perhaps partly because of the Israeli tendency to identify every Gazan male over the age of like 15 as a Hamas fighter) but I did remember seeing a survey that the vast majority had lost parents or close family to the IOF.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:01 PM on April 27 [7 favorites]

This article suggests that Palestinian civilians in Gaza are souring on Hamas. I’m not sure how much of this is wishful thinking in the part of the writers and how much of it reflects a genuine mood. It may also reflect the efforts of Israeli spin and propaganda penetrating into Palestinian thinking.
posted by interogative mood at 4:30 PM on April 27 [1 favorite]

glad to see 7 months into an ongoing genocide we still have folks trying to manufacture consent on Metafilter of all places
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:45 PM on April 27 [10 favorites]

Leaked State Department questions Israel's compliance with humanitarian law

Again, no new revelations in terms of what's happening on the ground. I spent a bit of time working with government and it wasn't uncommon to see diplomatic fictions across organizational boundaries, where everybody pretended to believe in a polite version of reality instead the obvious because it would otherwise be difficult to accomplish the work and also as a way to diffuse responsibility. That's what Israel's "assurances" are.

Israel, US said working to prevent ICC arrest warrant against Netanyahu

It's remarkable how much effort the US invested into trying to make Ukraine a universal issue, particularly among the global South, by appealing to international law, and are now torpedoing all the traction they managed to build.
posted by ndr at 3:14 AM on April 28 [8 favorites]

The baby I posted about upthread who was rescued from her mother's womb has now passed after 5 days in an incubator. Her name was Sabreen Jouda. Her uncle said: “God had taken something from us but given us something in return” with the baby surviving after her family died, he said. “But (now) he has taken them all. My brother’s family is completely wiped out. It’s been deleted from the civil registry. There is no trace of him left behind.”

Is there any direct reporting on whether ICC is going to issue an arrest warrant for Netanyahu? Even that article is quoting other Israeli media about worries, but I haven't seen any reporting that quotes actual sources at the ICC saying they're going to do anything.

The White House Correspondents dinner was yesterday; many showed up to protest and chant "shame on you" at the guests. Biden himself made a speech making fun of Trump but did not address the "ongoing war or the growing humanitarian crisis in Gaza".
posted by toastyk at 7:52 AM on April 28 [5 favorites]

The baby I posted about upthread who was rescued from her mother's womb has now passed

There is never going to be enough blood to sate the appetites of elders who were never meant to live as long as they do now. No matter what ethnocultural pool we are situated in on this planet, once we recognize this pattern of behavior emerge in our elder generations, what can we collectively do to effectively address it? How can we shift our culture so that as a species we can better mature?

Far be it for us wallowing in North American culture to develop any humility whatsoever that how we got here was by the dumb luck of chance. If we really mean to live meaningful lives such that we demonstrate we continue to deserve such privilege on an ongoing basis, then what is it we can (start to) do to address the paradoxical behaviors characteristic of a population emerging from demographic transition for the first time on this planet? How can we achieve sustainable emergence without the undercutting by elders who have never been and will never be taught how to cope with their unacknowledged rage over the wasted time in the lives as it relates to overt jealousy of the gifts of youth?

In case you missed it, I am firmly in the no-genital-mutilation-is-required-for-a-better-future camp. Behaviors which no other population on Earth require for managing sexual dysfunction and/or the human condition in general, such as gun tolerance, ought to be examined carefully rather than seamlessly integrated into any "solution" in which we work together to preserve a meaningful existence on this planet for future generations.
posted by human ecologist at 1:22 PM on April 28

i'm so tired and broken, i've been falling down on posting links. i did just see this tweet from Séamus Malekafzali, though (there's a video in the tweet):

The Houthi movement has released a highly-produced video of Yemeni soldiers training to conduct a military operation in Israel, examining satellite images of the Eilat Port, moving through tunnels, before detonating and driving military vehicles through an Israeli border wall.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:48 PM on April 28

This seems promising, though of course other potential deals have fallen through before:

A Hamas official told AFP, "There are no substantial disputes with the deal for a ceasefire and the release of hostages that Israel proposed."
posted by Justinian at 4:40 PM on April 28

This seems promising, though of course other potential deals have fallen through before:

Maybe the threat of ICC arrest warrants for leaders on both sides will focus their efforts towards a ceasefire? I can hope, anyway.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:51 PM on April 28

Bellingcat has published a new investigation, following the social media of track a single IDF combat engineering battalion, 8219 Commando, as they demolished buildings across Gaza. A tour video from 8219 Commando claims that in 84 days of fighting they destroyed 49 tunnels and 662 buildings. Our partners at Scripps News interviewed a member of 8219, Yonatan Segal, who said “I think we are the unit, at least until we left, that blew up the most amount of houses in Gaza.”

The anxiety over ICC arrests has made it to NYT reporting (gift link): One of the Israeli officials said that the possibility of the court issuing arrest warrants had informed Israeli decision-making in recent weeks.

The Israeli and foreign officials said they didn’t know what stage the process was in. Any warrants would require approval from a panel of judges and would not necessarily result in a trial or even the targets’ immediate arrest.

Karim Khan, the court’s chief prosecutor, has previously confirmed that his team is investigating incidents during the war, but his office declined to comment for this article, saying that it does not “respond to speculation in media reports.”

Spencer Ackerman writes for Zeteo on Israel's Armed Quadcopters and how it marks a dangerous new era in drone warfare: The battlefield emergence of the armed quadcopter is an uncomfortable reminder that the scale of destruction that has prompted observers of Gaza to compare it to 20th-century warfare is being accomplished with the weapons of the 21st – weapons often purported to make warfare more precise, or even more "humane." Instead, the Israeli assault on Gaza is showing us a glimpse of wars simultaneously fought at the scale of AI-generated target selection and, as with the armed quadcopter, with terrifying intimacy.

No comment: Yahel Vilan, the Israeli ambassador to Serbia, recently told the Russian State-owned news agency Sputnik that applying the term “genocide” to the July 1995 mass killings of more than 8,000 Bosnian Muslim (Bosniak) men and boys in and around the town of Srebrenica in eastern Bosnia presented a distorted picture of the events in question. Vilan declared explicitly that, in his view, “Srebrenica should not be called genocide.”
posted by toastyk at 6:03 AM on April 29 [10 favorites]

Also, World Central Kitchen will resume operations in Gaza.
posted by toastyk at 6:14 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]

The BBC has more details on the current ceasefire proposal.

It appears to offer a 40 day truce and negotiations for a more lasting ceasefire along with a release of captives and letting Palestinians return to northern Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 10:46 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]

Jose Andres posted an opinion article in WaPo detailing their expectations for Israel as they resume operations and calling out their anti-Palestinian discrimination:

We expect and insist that the Israel Defense Forces protect and respect the lives and work of our Palestinian team members, just like citizens from other nations.

That sort of treatment has been rare since we have been in the region. For example, though every team member is vetted and cleared before every food delivery mission, our Palestinian team members have been stripped and humiliated by Israeli soldiers while engaged in work that has been coordinated with, and approved by, the IDF.

Congress also worried about possible ICC arrests: House Foreign Affairs Committee Chair Michael McCaul (R-Texas) told Axios he expects a House version of Sen. Tom Cotton's (R-Ark.) bill to sanction ICC officials involved in investigating the U.S. and its allies, but added: "We hope it doesn't come to that."

More than 90 lawyers inside and outside the Biden admin are urging Biden to cut off military aid to Israel.
posted by toastyk at 10:25 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]

The Israeli ambassador to Serbia was engaging in genocide denialism because Israel plans to follow the Srebrenica playbook in Gaza and has planned checkpoints to prevent any male of "military age" from leaving (so they can all be killed, one assumes).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:20 PM on April 30 [5 favorites]

Guardian: Children in Gaza underplaying their pain due to extent of trauma around them, say doctors

International medics met in Doha, Qatar, on Saturday to discuss plans for a new trauma pain management manual to support professionals treating children in Gaza and other conflict zones.

Dr Paul Reavley, a paediatric emergency medicine consultant and former British Army medic is leading the project. He said attenders who originated from Gaza, and are in close contact with colleagues there, had passed on descriptions of how child patients behaved.

“The children sort of underplay their pain,” he said. “There has been so much around them, that it’s almost [as if] expression of pain and complaints about pain seem trivial.”

They feel “they have to be stronger”, Reavley said. “They’re observing children who are being treated next to their parents who’ve been resuscitated and dying. Compared with that, they lie there and think ‘I have pain’, but if someone asked about it, they don’t want to express it.”

Easy enough to say, "fuck Israel, and fuck the West," and I do, but truly for me, fuck everyone with a mealy-mouthed disposition about this still, but even a month in, with hindsight, who'd rather bleat about how things are complicated or reorient focus about their own discomfort or phantom terrorists in the rubble, or other hypothetical things like a colonial project ever truly being dismantled. To such people, I hope your comfortable beautiful life stays that way.
posted by cendawanita at 5:16 AM on May 1 [16 favorites]

NBC: NBC News investigation reveals Israel strikes on Gaza areas it said were safe -
NBC News found Palestinians were killed in seven deadly airstrikes in areas of southern Gaza that the Israeli military had explicitly designated as safe zones.

Biden's man: (ABC) Netanyahu vows to invade Rafah 'with or without a deal' as cease-fire talks with Hamas continue

I'm geolocked from accessing the Walla article, but as according to Dimi Reider (and someone posted translated screencaps - ""The machine" and "the hammer": the unit in the AMN [IDF intelligence branch] that provides thousands of targets for attack in Gaza"): Too late in the day for me to translate the text, but a pretty astonishing piece has IDF effectively confessing to the overall picture of the Lavender AI algorithmic butchery piece in @972mag. Except they use Israel's most credulous military reporter to spin it as tech triumph.

SCMP: Chinese satellites detail scale of destruction in besieged Palestinian territory
About 60 per cent of all the buildings in Gaza have been damaged in the past six months, according to analysis of Chinese satellite images presented at a space conference.
The estimate is the first to come from China and examines the destruction in detail over time.

“Comparative analysis shows that as of March 2, 2024, 58.4 per cent of buildings and 34.1 per cent of farmland in the Gaza Strip were damaged,” Li Deren, a professor of remote sensing at Wuhan University, told the China Space Conference in the central Chinese city of Wuhan on Wednesday.

The estimate was based on comparison of observations by the university’s Luojia-3 and Dongfang Huiyan Gaofen01 satellites taken since October 17, before Israeli forces invaded the Gaza Strip.

Using advanced automated recognition algorithms, the satellites detected and assessed damage to various types of structures including schools, universities, hospitals, and places of worship. They then categorised the destruction.

Li said that before November 10, 18.7 per cent of buildings in Gaza had been damaged. This increased to 32.6 per cent by November 29, and 56 per cent by January 22, before stabilising at 58.4 per cent by March.

(...) At 365 sq km (140 square miles), the Gaza Strip is roughly the size of Nagasaki, the Japanese city targeted by a US atomic bomb in 1945. In that blast, about 39 per cent of the municipality’s buildings were damaged or destroyed, according to the city – a level that has been surpassed in Gaza.

The Chinese estimate helps fill in some of the holes in knowledge about the extent of damage in Gaza, with surveys on the ground not possible.

Google satellite imagery, for example, does not reveal the level of destruction to Gaza, with streets and buildings in the city appearing to be intact on its maps.

+972: Why human agency is still central to Israel’s AI-powered warfare -
Following +972’s 'Lavender' exposé, international law and AI experts explain how Israel's top brass and global tech firms are implicated in the slaughter

Freedom Flotilla: Underhanded Israeli Tactic Delays Flotilla Departure
The Freedom Flotilla is ready to sail. All the required paperwork has been submitted to the port authority, and the cargo has been loaded and prepared for the trip to Gaza.

However, today we received word of an administrative roadblock initiated by Israel in an attempt to prevent our departure. Israel is pressuring the Republic of Guinea Bissau to withdraw its flag from our lead ship—Akdeniz (“Mediterranean”). This triggered a request for an additional inspection, this one by the flag state, that delays our April 26 planned departure.

WashPo: Journalism professors call on New York Times to review Oct. 7 report
In full: More than 50 tenured journalism professors from top universities have signed a letter (PDF) calling on the New York Times to address questions about a major investigative report that described a “pattern of gender-based violence” in the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks on Israel.

The letter follows months of criticism and concerns raised by outside critics as well as some Times staffers about the credibility of its sourcing and the editorial process for the story.

Oh okay: (Reuters) US implicates 5 Israeli units in rights violations before Gaza war, no restrictions on assistance
The United States found five units of Israel's security forces responsible for gross violations of human rights, the first time Washington has reached such a conclusion about Israeli forces, the State Department said on Monday, though it has not barred any of the units from receiving U.S. military assistance.

Israel has conducted "remediation" in the cases of four of the units in compliance with U.S. law prohibiting military assistance to security force units that commit such abuses and have not been brought to justice, State Department deputy spokesperson Vedant Patel told reporters.
posted by cendawanita at 6:08 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]

fuck everyone with a mealy-mouthed disposition about this still

I'm not sure what to say about this, but of the MeFites who have consistently brought information on the invasion and genocide, and ensured the media diet introduced to the discussions was more varied, you have really raised the bar in just keeping this visible and you mostly let the reporting speak for itself

I can see how a person just can't take it after a while. I think of the dozens upon dozens of derails about antisemitism, whether comparisons to Nazis or other conflicts were valid, those very stupid back-and-forths re: "so what you're saying is Israel isn't allowed to defend itself??" just fucking exhausting

I really appreciate what you bring.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:22 AM on May 1 [19 favorites]

Seconded.
posted by flabdablet at 8:10 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]

Thirded. Thank you very much for your contributions, cendawanita, it's kept me feeling sane in a lot of ways.
posted by toastyk at 8:20 AM on May 1 [7 favorites]

Thank you to you guys as well, I really appreciate the mutual work we're all doing as well (especially as I'm not going to be as on top of my feeds in May for irl reasons).

Anyway, back to normal country behaviour, a report from our man in Tel Aviv who got to enjoy a nice warm handshake from Biden for winning some award at that WH correspondent dinner: Israel tells U.S. it will punish Palestinian Authority if ICC issues warrants
The Israeli government warned the Biden administration that if the International Criminal Court issues arrest warrants against Israeli leaders, it will take retaliatory steps against the Palestinian Authority that could lead to its collapse, two Israeli and U.S. officials said.

Why it matters: Israeli officials have grown increasingly concerned over the last two weeks that the International Criminal Court (ICC) is preparing to issue arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Yoav Gallant and Israel Defense Forces chief of staff Herzi Halevi.

Driving the news: The ICC, which is based in The Hague, Netherlands, has been investigating since 2021 possible war crimes by both Israeli forces and Palestinian militants dating back to the 2014 Israel-Hamas war.

- That investigation has been extended to the Oct. 7 attacks and the war that has been raging in Gaza since then, according to the prosecutor's office.

What is this behaviour: State of play: Two U.S. officials said the Biden administration has conveyed to ICC officials in private that arrest warrants against Israeli leaders would be a mistake and that the U.S. doesn't support the action.

- "We are quietly encouraging the ICC no to do it. It will blow up everything. Israel will retaliate against the Palestinian Authority," a U.S. official said.

- The official added that while there is pressure on the ICC prosecutor to issue such arrest warrants, the Biden administration doesn't think the move is as imminent as the Israelis think.

Earlier, from Reuters: Exclusive: Gaza hospital staff questioned by ICC war crimes prosecutors, sources say
Prosecutors from the International Criminal Court have interviewed staff from Gaza's two biggest hospitals, two sources told Reuters, the first confirmation that ICC investigators were speaking to medics about possible crimes in the Gaza Strip.

The sources, who asked not to be identified due to the sensitivity of the subject, told Reuters ICC investigators had taken testimony from staff who had worked in the main hospital in Gaza City in the north of the enclave, Al Shifa, and the main hospital in Khan Younis in the south, Nasser.

The sources declined to provide more details, citing concerns about the safety of potential witnesses.

One of the sources said that events surrounding the hospitals could become part of the investigation by the ICC, which hears criminal cases against individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and aggression.
The ICC's office of the prosecutor refused to comment on operational matters in ongoing investigations citing the need to ensure the safety of victims and witnesses.

Also, Colombia just announced it's cutting off ties with Israel beginning May 2. Colombia has been interesting for me - its president has been the first in the world stage at his stature to raise the double standards of a country under the aegis of the West or otherwise.

Also new, from +972, an investigation of Palestinian telecom workers who'd been attacked by Israeli forces as they attempt repairs to the telecommunications infrastructure, if those who were tracking the news will recall:
A Gaza team went to repair a telecoms machine. An Israeli tank fired at them -
In January, Israeli soldiers attacked a convoy of Paltel technicians in Khan Younis, killing two. Contrary to the army’s account, an investigation shows the workers coordinated every step of the journey along an approved route.

I'll be frank, considering Gaza is where IDF has also managed to kill its own soldiers and Israeli civilian hostages, I'm just waiting for the bootlicking Biden will be doing once the inevitable casualty rate hits American soldiers on the ground tasked with building that pier.
posted by cendawanita at 11:25 AM on May 1 [6 favorites]

Haaretz on latest ceasefire proposal: According to the proposal, in the first phase, the IDF's activities in the Gaza Strip will be suspended for 40 days, during which the forces will withdraw from the populated areas and those close to the border with Israel, but not from the Netzarim corridor in the center of the Gaza Strip.

During this time period, three hostages will be released every three days, first women – including female soldiers, until the 33rd day. Israel will at the same timeframe release Palestinian prisoners according to a list that will be agreed upon by the parties.

On the seventh day of the deal, Hamas will submit a list of all the living hostages, except for the 33 that will be released in the first stage.

Israeli demonstrators recorded themselves attacking an aid convoy from Jordan headed to Gaza.

An interview with a pro-Palestinian activist in Taiwan: I am extremely ashamed of my government, but also about the Taiwanese media coverage, and the ignorance of our civil society. Regarding our government, I don't think things are going to change. The current Foreign Minister Joseph Wu seems to personally support Israel. In February 2024, that is four months into the war, there was also the confirmation of the establishment of a Taiwan–Israel congressional alliance. No Taiwanese official will say anything supportive of Palestine in a public forum. What is disappointing is that this alliance is of the DPP, and includes people who are indeed progressive.

I am very critical of my government, but also recognize that Taiwan received undue scrutiny in its attitudes towards Palestine, compared to European countries that are also silent on Gaza. Taiwan cannot be held to the same standards as it is an unrecognized state. We have an existential threat, so we can't always choose the powers we are in bed with — the US.

posted by toastyk at 12:26 PM on May 1 [7 favorites]

The northern Erez crossing has been reopened today for the first time since Oct 7th.
posted by interogative mood at 2:04 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]

Taiwan cannot be held to the same standards as it is an unrecognized state. We have an existential threat, so we can't always choose the powers we are in bed with — the US.

At least Taiwan can use that reasoning - heck if I know what's Singapore's excuse (other than latent Islamophobia and anti-Malay/indigenous colonial racism - not helped at all by the fact this matter is framed largely in terms of public opinion as a relational thing from their Malaysian and Indonesian neighbours).
posted by cendawanita at 6:05 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]

Today the US House voted overwhelming (320-91) to require the Department of Education to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of anti-semitism in Title 9 investigations. Text of the bill here. This definition includes as an example calling the existence of the state of Israel a racist endeavor.

70 democrats and 21 Republicans voted against the bill. Included in the opposition were It is unclear if the bill will be taken up by the Senate. Jerry Nadler who is a Jewish member of Congress was among the most outspoken critics of the bill. The most prominent Republican against the bill was Margery Taylor “Jewish Space Lasers” Greene who did not approve of the definition because it also gives the example of saying Jews killed Jesus.
posted by interogative mood at 6:33 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]

Today the US House voted overwhelming (320-91) to require the Department of Education to the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of anti-semitism

A definition which leading scholars of antisemitism say "has been hijacked to shield the Israeli government" (PDF link).

This definition includes as an example calling the existence of the state of Israel a racist endeavor.

The existence of any ethnonationalist state is fundamentally a racist endeavour. True for apartheid South Africa, true for the Jim Crow South, true for Israel. Can't legislate facts, unfortunately.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:58 AM on May 2 [11 favorites]

Can too.
posted by flabdablet at 8:42 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]

Turkey...of all countries, is halting trade with Israel: Turkey said late Thursday that it had halted all trade with Israel until “uninterrupted and adequate humanitarian aid is allowed into Gaza,” signaling further deterioration in relations between the two countries.

Turkey’s Trade Ministry said in a statement that exports and imports “for all products” would pause.

The move, which was initially reported by Bloomberg, had prompted the Israeli foreign minister, Israel Katz, to lash out at Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, accusing him of “blocking ports for Israeli imports and exports.”

Where is the Palestinian Gandhi? A profile of Issa Amro, who is still championing nonviolent resistance - The settler continued to taunt Amro. She told him he was a pedophile. She called him a terrorist. I scanned his face, waiting for a reaction. This was a man who had lost his brother, and a Palestinian who had been forced out of his home time and again. But all that was visible was the man who had spent years telling people to turn the other cheek. He asked us to keep moving.

“Thank you,” he said to the woman as we left.
posted by toastyk at 2:44 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]

Turkey...of all countries, is halting trade with Israel

Bibi ironically outperforming his self-admitted bestie (well, pre-Oct 2023 anyway). Anyway, that's Biden's man.
posted by cendawanita at 3:03 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]

The existence of any ethnonationalist state is fundamentally a racist endeavour

Under that logic Irish independence was fundamentally a racist endeavor. It’s an ethno-nationalist state? Was South Sudan or Eritrea’s independence from Sudan and Ethiopia also a racist endeavor, shall we undo those decisions?

The dominant nation state model is one where borders are drawn based on cultural and ethnic similarities. The idea that those communities have a right to self determination is one of the core human rights defined by the United Nations.

It isn’t my preferred model. I prefer systems like the US, Canada, South Africa, etc that have at least on paper aspired to be multi-cultural and race agnostic. This isn’t the norm though.

I think to call those countries racist endeavors would tend to ignore the other factors that went into the reasons that the particular cultural/ethnic group sought their independence and exercised their right of self determination. If one is singling out Israel alone then I think the argument can be made that the statement is antisemitic as it seems to be denying Israelis the same rights as others.
posted by interogative mood at 9:43 AM on May 3 [1 favorite]

Irish independence was fundamentally a racist endeavor. It’s an ethno-nationalist state?

No it isn't? It doesn't privilege citizens of Irish ancestry over citizens of non-Irish ancestry (see recent PM Leo Varadkar, for instance). Get back to me when Israel doesn't privilege Jews over non-Jews, or elects an Arab prime minister.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:58 AM on May 3 [7 favorites]

I can't speak to the example of Ireland with any authority, but I think a comparison there would benefit from acknowledging the way modern Ireland is in part a result of resistance to efforts by the English to occupy and control people and land. In other words, to focus on the 'ethno-nationalist' aspect seems to be missing the more important, and more apt, comparison?

Canada is absolutely trying to shrug off its ethno-nationalist origins. The nation building of Canada may differ in a number of aspects, but a good period of Canada's history (and this echoes in our continued membership in the Commonwealth of Nations, and with our continued recognition of England's royal family on currency etc.) is a history where white English settlers were the ones who made the rules and represented the elite, Quebec notwithstanding.

The most terrible human crime in my lifetime is happening while we discuss these finer points. Ending the deaths would be a good starting point to any further discussion, and somewhere down the road I think we either grapple with what race and statehood will mean for our century or we will perish, because this is looking a lot like the way we've been fighting over resources and killing each other from last century.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:19 AM on May 3 [10 favorites]

And since you want to talk about Ireland, here is Article 2 of the Irish Constitution:

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation.

Contrast with Israel, which is "the nation-state of the Jewish people" (a narrow, ethno-religious definition, which excludes Arab Muslims and Christians who are also citizens of Israel).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:47 AM on May 3 [5 favorites]

Further, no-one has the right to "self-determine" in territory already occupied by other people, where they constitute a minority of the population. Zionist definitions of "self-determination" and "indigineity" make a mockery of both concepts.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:55 AM on May 3 [9 favorites]

honest to god lol at the idea that Ireland is somehow basically the same as Israel. they're both countries, I guess.
posted by sagc at 11:06 AM on May 3 [9 favorites]

One deleted. Let's not make this thread's comments about other members, let's stick to the subject.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:38 AM on May 3

Ireland grants special immigration status to people with Irish ancestry, while it has sought to further limit non-Irish immigration. In 2004 they eliminated birthright citizenship. African immigrants and international students report that they frequently experience racism and discrimination. Even the UN has called them out over the treatment of canon-Irish children in their childcare and child welfare systems.

Israel and Ireland both have legal systems thst officially offer equal protection and rights to all citizens regardless of ethnic background. Arabs serve in political, military and government offices in Israel. There are Arab members of parliament. The same is true in Ireland. This does not mean that the day to day experience of Arabs or non-Irish people is free from state supported racism and discrimination.

This is separate from Israel’s status as an occupying power in the West Bank and Gaza where it exercises administrative control over a number of people who are not its citizens and has no intention for ever allowing them a path to citizenship while it also seeks to claim the land they are living on as its own.
posted by interogative mood at 11:38 AM on May 3

OK, it has racism. It still doesn't establish itself as a christosupremacist state, which it would have to do in order for this comparison to make any sort of sense.

And you can't just say "this is separate from the open-air prison they maintain". I mean, you can (and often do), but it doesn't exactly strengthen your argument.

I can't figure out if you're trolling, or if you think Ireland is as racist as Israel? Or maybe the comparison doesn't really illuminate much, given that Ireland isn't currently engaged in genocide?
posted by sagc at 11:45 AM on May 3 [7 favorites]

Ireland's necessary relation to Western white supremacist systems of liberalized power is so off topic right now that it can only be interpreted as a deliberate attempt to obfuscate from the very real and very horrific genocide being perpetrated by Israel that is now facilitating McCarthyism level dracony in the States.
posted by CPAnarchist at 11:49 AM on May 3 [12 favorites]

It's also somewhere between bad faith and an outright lie to compare the right of return to Israel - which is religiously based - to whether someone has an ancestor from Ireland which grants them citizenship. You can see that, right? Otherwise, Palestinians would, y'know, also have that right.
posted by sagc at 11:49 AM on May 3 [5 favorites]

lol at the idea that Ireland is somehow basically the same as Israel

If a couple of million Irish-Americans went to Ireland, asserted their right to "self-determine" on the basis of "indigeneity", enacted a new constitution that said that only Roman Catholics could enjoy the full rights of Irish citizenship, and forced the native Irish to live a ghettoised existence in refugee camps while subject to apartheid, sure. In reality, not so much.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:54 AM on May 3 [6 favorites]

“Why Israel Should Declare a Unilateral Cease-Fire in Gaza,”Dennis Ross and David Makovsky , Foreign Affairs, 01 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 1:12 PM on May 3

From NYT: Israeli Officials Weigh Sharing Power With Arab States in Postwar Gaza.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on May 3

It wasn’t until this spring’s referendum that Ireland removed the last elements of Catholic doctrine from its constitution. At its inception in 1937 the constitution was labeled a fascist instrument of oppression by Irish feminist Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington.

Anyway my point is that countries that are based on some ethnic majority are not just racist endeavors — the basis of their existence is complicated and to reduce the history of a country to an insult or invective is wrong.
posted by interogative mood at 3:37 PM on May 3

I'm still wildly confused about how you think this has any bearing on Israel as constituted today. Saying that other states have been racist doesn't somehow make it good when Israel does it.

Love to hear your response about the right of return, and how excluding Palestinians is not a relevant point in your opinion.
posted by sagc at 4:07 PM on May 3 [9 favorites]

It wasn’t until this spring’s referendum that Ireland removed the last elements of Catholic doctrine from its constitution

And Israel's "Basic Law" passed in 2018 with the opposition of every Arab party in the Knesset, and Israel is actively engaged in settler colonialism in the West Bank in contravention of international law. Do you have an actual point that isn't just whataboutism?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:23 PM on May 3 [9 favorites]

From that article Justinian posted:

Behind the scenes, however, senior officials in his office have been weighing an expansive plan for postwar Gaza, in which Israel would offer to share oversight of the territory with an alliance of Arab countries, including Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, as well as the United States, according to three Israeli officials and five people who have discussed the plan with members of the Israeli government.
…
Under the proposal, the Arab-Israeli alliance, working with the United States, would appoint Gazan leaders to redevelop the devastated territory, overhaul its education system and maintain order. After between seven and 10 years, the alliance would allow Gazans to vote on whether to be absorbed into a united Palestinian administration that would govern in both Gaza and the Israeli-occupied West Bank, according to the proposal. In the meantime, the plan suggests, the Israeli military could continue to operate inside Gaza.

...i notice that one party is conspicuously fucking absent from these theoretical discussions, yet again. You know, the actual Palestinians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:32 PM on May 3 [12 favorites]

Is there a non-Hamas organization with enough support to represent Gaza in the plans? That's not rhetorical... who can do it?
posted by Justinian at 7:12 PM on May 3

The article itself notes that this seems like a pie in the sky pseudoplan in any case. Arab states aren't going to sign on unless Israel commits to a full two state solution and as long as Netanyahu maintains his death grip on power that seems like a non starter.
posted by Justinian at 7:20 PM on May 3

Is there a non-Hamas organization with enough support to represent Gaza in the plans? That's not rhetorical... who can do it?

For about five minutes there was a proposal that after the shake-up within the Palestinian Authority, that they were going to be positioned for a leadership role in Gaza. But Bibi gave that an emphatic thumbs down, and it wasn't like they necessarily had a lot of credibility anyway.

But while there is no perfect option sitting there ready in the wings, it's not like you can't reconstitute civil society any number of ways -- but it takes being willing to do it, and Netanyahu's government is unwilling to allow that at all currently.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:25 PM on May 3 [1 favorite]

Is there a non-Hamas organization with enough support to represent Gaza in the plans?

You're already begging the question, right in your first sentence! Why does it have to be a "non-Hamas" organization?

(But also, there's PIJ, the PFLP, etc. with some level of support in Gaza. Israel and the US hate all of them equally, though!)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:37 PM on May 3 [4 favorites]

You're already begging the question, right in your first sentence! Why does it have to be a "non-Hamas" organization?

My first instinct is to say "no way, Hamas is basically permanently disqualified." But there was a time in my own memory when the IRA was in that category and Sinn Fein was barely an iota closer to respectable, and the same with a number of other conflicts where the "terrorists" managed to go from pariah to political legitimacy and the world didn't end. (Yasser Arafat completed most of that trajectory, just as an easy example also within my own memory.) So I'm not going to say never; people adapt and change and sometimes necessity means sucking it up and talking to people you despise.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:14 PM on May 3

On what grounds would you disqualify Hamas that don't apply equally to Likud, is the thing? The whole point is that Palestinians have the right to choose their own governance! They're not Israel's to dispose of or "appoint leadership" for!
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:27 PM on May 3 [6 favorites]

Maybe I'm writing unclearly; I think we are actually agreeing here. My point is that at some point, if dialog is going to happen, it's going to have to happen with whomever is in the room, which is going to include Hamas. We've all watched this multiple times over the past decades, where it starts as "they are evil terrorists and you can't negotiate with terrorists" and at some point people finally end up dealing with the actual situation, not their desired situation. To make it work, it takes movement on the both sides towards away from the all-or-nothing positions where they are now.

There have been so many examples of this in my lifetime, but it is a hard process and it will require people on both sides coming to the point where they realize there is a smarter option. Right now I feel really pessimistic, but eventually the situation will shift, I hope.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:15 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]

Peace is only possible if the leaders on both sides sit down and negotiate. They have to accept that both sides are going to get to pick their own leaders. For Palestinians it will probably be Hamas and for Israelis it will probably be Netanyahu or Gantz. None of them would be my pick. Unfortunately none of them seems willing to enter into serious negotiations.
posted by interogative mood at 9:37 PM on May 3

Unfortunately none of them seems willing to enter into serious negotiations.

This is simply not true, though? Hamas has been signaling a willingness to enter into serious negotiations basically the whole fucking time! You can certainly choose to assert that they're lying, of course, but it would be that—an assertion, not backed by evidence. The problem for Israel is, Hamas has also signaled that they're unwilling to sell out either full sovereignty for Palestine (as part of either a one- or two-state solution, with Hamas preferring two states and other Palestinian groups preferring one state) or the right of return.

For fuck's sake, just last week they were signaling that they are potentiallly willing to disarm the Al Qassam Brigades (and potentially fold them into a regular army) in return for sovereignty!
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:46 PM on May 3 [10 favorites]

Israeli establishment (and with it the West) bears the most responsibility of the intractability of both this current round of violence (against the backdrop of an almost-decade-long siege against the backdrop of almost 60 years of belligerent occupation against the backdrop of territorial seizure and disruption of self-determination of just under 80 years), both in kind, in degree, and in magnitude. The temptation to equivocate is natural but these aren't even the same sort of entities. One is barely a nation-state, the accepted form of political entity for this example of equivocation to work. You don't even have to adjudicate on the context (what I've described in the backdrop bracket), as the current facts are sufficient - no matter what Hamas has been saying, no one within the Israeli political class (that DC/WH is speaking to) have even tried to compromise on their redlines (well except this weekend, I guess we'll see) which includes undifferentiated slaughter of civilians [normative fact as I see it] because they cannot admit their counterterrorism strategy (and one that's been exported internationally) has failed [observational conclusion I'm making].

That last bit of finally correlating our realities remains the necessary work of acknowledging that Israel as a nation-state is a functionally different entity than the multitude of parties that attempt to normatively administrate the occupied territories. When you can make the reorientation you can see which arguments becomes less useful to volley.
posted by cendawanita at 1:05 AM on May 4 [4 favorites]

Wow checked back in for the first time in awhile and was flummoxed to see a longish derail about Ireland in a thread about a genocide. Great work derailing from the inconvenient subject of the post!!
posted by kensington314 at 1:31 AM on May 4 [10 favorites]

Hamas’ proposal was a temporary truce of at least 5 years and to turn the defacto army into the official army. In exchange they just want full sovereignty, withdrawal to 67 borders and not be required to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the remainder or commit to negotiating an actual peace treaty. That’s the same proposal they’ve made for years. That isn’t an offer to begin serious negotiations.

Meanwhile negotiations for a ceasefire are currently waiting on Hamas’ response to the latest Israeli offer.
posted by interogative mood at 1:41 AM on May 4

not be required to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the remainder or commit to negotiating an actual peace treaty

Is this a paraphrase of the current round of terms? Have I missed something? (No really, have I? Since Israel keeps turning down every single proposal I've only been keeping a light eye, and proposals that've been mediated by the third countries whom I assumed would have at least started with baseline recognition of statehood before they'd even go on to negotiate, this seems like trying to say Qatar, US, France, Egypt are stupid and/or bad faith parties in the proceedings). I don't know why 1967 borders are bad. I don't know why a nation setting the terms of its own security apparatus are bad. I feel like I know why Israel wants us to think it's bad but Israel also startles so badly if other neighbours so much as holds up a pointed stick (eg like the current bombing of Lebanon). I don't know why full sovereignty is bad. I don't know why all of this (pending the claim of not normatively recognising Israeli statehood - because then who are they negotiating with? Djinns?) means these are not serious positions. Unacceptable why?
posted by cendawanita at 1:55 AM on May 4 [5 favorites]

I cannot accept the baseline position of a treaty being a condition where one party gets to compromise on nothing. Which school of international relations is this?
posted by cendawanita at 1:59 AM on May 4 [10 favorites]

I don't know why 1967 borders are bad.

To disagree with myself: well obviously, if you're for a one-state solution, a democratic and united Palestine or New Philistine or Palrael or whatever, I suppose such borders are bad....
posted by cendawanita at 2:03 AM on May 4 [6 favorites]

One of the criticisms I've seen of 1967 borders, that I haven't had the time, opportunity or frankly expertise to properly assess, is that due to extensive illegal Israeli settlement, the likely result of such proposals is a Palestine riven by strange exclaves and border irregularities, with implication that much of the most economically valuable land will be given to Israel on the grounds that "the settlers are there now, asking them to move would be ethnic cleansing".

Which all leads into imagining a future where Palestinians still have to regularly navigate border walls and Israeli checkpoints, are still relatively impoverished, while Israelis cruise cybertrucks through elaborate tunnels and protected highways. Which might be better than now, but does seem like just kicking the can down the road.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:51 AM on May 4 [8 favorites]

due to extensive illegal Israeli settlement, the likely result of such proposals is a Palestine riven by strange exclaves and border irregularities, with implication that much of the most economically valuable land will be given to Israel on the grounds that "the settlers are there now, asking them to move would be ethnic cleansing".

One proposal I've seen for addressing that issue involves two states with the 1967 borders, and an agreement made between them whereby existing West Bank settlers retain their Israeli citizenship and are also granted permanent resident status inside what would then become Palestine. The quid pro quo would be that an equal number of Palestinian citizens get a right to migrate to Israel and likewise gain permanent resident status, though not citizenship, there.
posted by flabdablet at 3:03 AM on May 4 [3 favorites]

Noura Erakat on The Dig: Scholars Against Genocide panel, she starts speaking at about 50m:

Force protection is the idea that in assessing proportionality or the military advantage, how much force a belligerent can use, which measures the military advantage to be achieved by an operation and the harm caused to civilians and civilian infrastructure and protected units. So here— the military advantage versus the harm. Military advantage includes how many soldiers as part of the belligerent state are spared from harm. The more soldiers you lose in combat, the less your military advantage is diminishing.

The traditional approach is that your soldiers' lives are worth less than the lives of your civilians. Israel has no problem with this. Its Israeli soldiers' lives are worth less than Israeli civilians. Typically, the lives of the enemy civilians are also worth more than the lives of the belligerent state. But what Kasher and Yadlin propose is that enemy civilians'— Palestinians'— lives are worth less than the soldiers, and then the enemy militants are worth even less than them. This is a radical proposition. This is a radical, dehumanizing, dangerous proposition because it says that protecting the lives of your soldiers is now worth more than the protecting the lives of the civilians who are not trained in war, who cannot pick up arms to defend themselves, who do not have the right to kill and be killed, but should be given immunity in all of these operations. Yet Kasher and Yadlin argued that the lives of prioritizing Palestinian civilians was, "immoral, and that an Israeli combatant is a civilian in uniform whose blood is worth just as much as, just as precious as, the blood of all Israeli civilians."

Note that this also is going to the heart of how Israel creates and stands its army which is a force of conscription— a forced conscription— and so for them they are not only militarizing and securitizing Palestinians but they're also turning their soldiers into civilians and even infantilizing them in need of protection. Hence, we get a liberal killing policy that includes declaring large areas as kill zones to kill anything that moves.

According to a soldier following the 2014 offensive, the longest offensive before this one, 51 days. So this is with significant precedent. The soldier in 2014 says, "The working assumption states"— and I want to stress this as a quote of sorts— "that anyone located in an IDF area and areas that the IDF took over is not considered a civilian." There is no status assessment here. The declaration of an area becomes the declaration of a kill zone.

Somehow the revelation of this right now in 2023 seems as shocking to people who are reading it, but they have been telling us this for some time, almost two decades now. This is how three Israeli hostages were shot dead as they were holding up their white flags and speaking in Hebrew. This is why we witnessed four unarmed Palestinian men walking on a road in Khan Yunis to their homes to check on their status were shot down as if we were watching a video game. Four times. The first strike killed two of them immediately. The second strike killed the second one who was stumbling. The third strike didn't kill the third Palestinian man, but he had to be struck twice in order to kill him. They were in a kill zone and thus presumed to not be civilians.

Her entire speech is fantastic and worth a listen.
posted by i like crows very much at 3:07 AM on May 4 [10 favorites]

I mean logically the settlers should be prosecuted for theft, evicted and their assaults on Palestinians and be forced to leave because they stole Palestinians' houses and property out from them.

But hey, consequences for illegal and immoral actions are just "too difficult".
posted by toastyk at 6:17 AM on May 4 [6 favorites]

Is there any actual, real, serious, reason to believe that unless Israel is forcibly stopped by an outside power it's going to stop before it either openly possesses Gaza as an official Israeli territory or (as in the West Bank) is covertly in possession while using "settlers" to slowly take official possession of it bit at a time?

I feel like either I'm being overly cynical (which I don't believe is even possible in regards to Israel) or the rest of the world is gaslighting me because even people who aren't fans of Israel keep talking like this future in which Israel doesn't claim Gaza one way or the other is going to happen.

Justinian unless Israel commits to a full two state solution and as long as Netanyahu maintains his death grip on power that seems like a non starter.

I'm curious about why you pin that on Netanyahu? A couple months 10/7 a plurality of Israelis were opposed to a two state solution with only around 24% actually in favor. And post 10/7 that's become a supermajority (65%) of Israelis who oppose a two state solution.

The problem isn't Netanyahu. Or, at least not JUST Netanyahu.
posted by sotonohito at 6:58 AM on May 4 [5 favorites]

I'm curious about why you pin that on Netanyahu? A couple months 10/7 a plurality of Israelis were opposed to a two state solution with only around 24% actually in favor. And post 10/7 that's become a supermajority (65%) of Israelis who oppose a two state solution.

And yet the government of Israel, holding all the cards, could go all-in on Greater Israel, annexing everything from the river to the sea. Of course, "One Nation" that has "liberty and justice for all" would mean that everyone in Greater Israel would have to be Israeli citizens, with equal protection and due process of law.

One effect of this would be that Hamas would be finally treated as nothing more than a criminal gang, using terror tactics, and the full force of law enforcement would descend. As would it upon the the criminal gangs of settlers also using terror tactics.

But I hear of some so called "demographic problem" as if not getting the "consent of the governed" in free and fair elections is a problem with the electorate somehow and not the fault of the government seeking consent.
posted by mikelieman at 7:18 AM on May 4 [4 favorites]

Haaretz: Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending -
According to the report, Hamas was guaranteed by the U.S. for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and that Israeli forces will not continue fighting once the hostages are released ■ An Israeli official told Haaretz that 'Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal' and is determined to enter Rafah
Another Israeli official told Haaretz that, contrary to reports, "Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal to release the hostages" and is determined to enter Rafah "either if the cease-fire will be temporary or not."

Minister Benny Gantz said that Hamas has not yet given an official answer to the Egyptian proposal for a hostage deal, and if Hamas accepts it, the war cabinet will meet to discuss the matter.

"I suggest to 'political sources' and all the decision-makers that they wait for official updates, to act calmly and not fall into hysteria for political reasons," he said.

Ahead of their arrival in Egypt on Friday, senior Hamas officials told Haaretz that according to the Egyptian proposal, Israel and the United States are committed to a cease-fire, but the question for Hamas is whether Israel will resume fighting after the hostages are released.

The officials added that the organization is asking for guarantees from the intermediaries that Israel will not resume fighting.

A Hamas delegation is set to visit Cairo on Saturday to respond to Israel's latest cease-fire proposal, Reuters reported Friday. CIA Director William Burns has also arrived in Cairo on Friday, an Egyptian security source and three sources at Cairo airport said.

Senior Hamas officials told Haaretz on Saturday that, according to the Egyptian proposal, Israel and the United States are committed to a cease-fire, but the question for Hamas is whether Israel will resume fighting after the hostages are released.

On Friday, Hamas emphasized its positive approach in reviewing the cease-fire proposal received recently and will go to Cairo with the same spirit to reach an agreement.

"We are determined to secure an agreement in a way that fulfills Palestinians' demands," a statement by the group added.

Sure, it's the Palestinians who are being unreasonable. In the meantime Israelis in the army can barely shoot straight on the ground compared to air force strikes even if those make no real attempt to avoid civilians like a worse dollar store version of a Samson reenactment. But they're definitely winning this war. What are they winning? Providing me with comedy material with news like this: US says Hamas briefly seized 1st aid shipment that entered Gaza via reopened crossing?

State Department says UN ‘in the process or has by now recovered’ the humanitarian assistance stolen by terror group, the ‘first widespread case of diversion’ acknowledged by US - TL;DR Palestinians "stole" aid so it won't get held up, destroyed, blocked and can magically reappear at UN warehouses. But, Khamas.

What's my read? Can't control your settlers, can't control your troops scrapbooking their war crimes, can't even stamp out the terrorists whom you've pinned your military objective around. But sure, go over the negotiated terms, find something to be mad about so you can walk away.
posted by cendawanita at 7:29 AM on May 4 [6 favorites]

I mean, it also worked in Northern Ireland, as you pointed out, and in South Africa, as you didn't. :) (The ANC also killed civilians! They were designated a terrorist organization by the US and the UK!)

Yes, exactly, and there is a much longer list than that just in the past decades alone, never mind further back in history. And again, it goes both ways -- it takes the nation-state being willing to shift from calling, say, the ANC terrorists to treating them as legitimate political actors with whom you can talk, and it also takes the insurgent side moving away from "the government are war criminals and must be destroyed" and instead being willing to sit and talk with bad people who have done bad things. (And this kind of process can be contingent and shift around rather than being simple and linear, like with Spain's fluctuating approaches to dealing with its various separatists.)

So it's by no means impossible, it happens all the time. But right now there does not appear to be interlocutors on either side who are willing or able to take those steps with enough backing and legitimacy to have it mean anything. We're still at the stage where both sides are just laying out pretty absolutist demands (i.e., everyone wants "from the river to the sea" completely on their own terms and fuck anyone else who doesn't like it) as pseudo-negotiation start points. Actual negotiation would look very different, and definitely won't result in either side getting everything they way.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:31 AM on May 4 [2 favorites]

But right now there does not appear to be interlocutors on either side--

Sure, everyone loves collecting frequent flier miles for the hell of it. we're getting to the seventh month. We already know at this point Oct 7 was a botched episode of what's been a sorry dance of hostage negotiations, hence the readiness to exchange hostages from within those first weeks from Hamas. I understand that it's tough but Israel has sailed well into being a rogue state for years now, and if you want to pin this on Bibi's rule, I will go along and only because that was when I could see the hard right tack the political establishment took (not that previous Labour and more liberal times were necessarily not belligerent) in terms of the international friends they were making, while the US just keeps telling itself delusional stories about their ex-bestie. Bibi declaring himself besties with Putin wasn't a miscalculation. And again, between a state and an occupied people you cannot put them on a scale and expect it to balance.
posted by cendawanita at 7:58 AM on May 4 [4 favorites]

And the fact that these periodic hostage taking had become custom, stop and pause and consider how fucking insane that is, why the fuck that became a tactical lever at all, and why the fuck it never lead to any kind of break in the political standoff. Do Israelis enjoy being occasionally captured and killed just so the occupied Palestinians could have a slim shot at petitioning for the release of their family and friends? Take a pause and consider which side is the actual nation-state and what is the insane political culture that's allowed this to be a norm?
posted by cendawanita at 8:02 AM on May 4 [5 favorites]

Is there any actual, real, serious, reason to believe that unless Israel is forcibly stopped by an outside power it's going to stop

No.
posted by flabdablet at 8:03 AM on May 4 [10 favorites]

NYT: Parts of Gaza Are in Famine, World Food Program Chief Says (archived)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:23 AM on May 4 [6 favorites]

Parts of Gaza Are in Famine, World Food Program Chief Says

Deliberately engineered famine as a means of genocide. Israel just can't stop with the crimes against humanity.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:05 PM on May 4 [5 favorites]

And, Israel is 100% committed to genocide. That Haaretz article makes it very clear.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:13 PM on May 4 [3 favorites]

Well at least they are still talking and things are sort of quiet; even if there isn’t a full ceasefire and lots of threats being made. There is still some hope. I expect the worst.
posted by interogative mood at 1:27 PM on May 4

I can read this WSJ article on my phone but it's paywalled on my computer. It's one of the more hopeful articles I've seen in recent days about the ceasefire negotiations, but at this point I just can't get my hopes up much given all the false starts and refusals. According to the article, there is a threat to boot the Hamas political wing out of Qatar if they don't reach a deal; that's probably a major incentive for the political guys but I can't see the military wing sitting in the tunnels feeling very sympathetic that the political guys might have to relocate to a different luxury villa.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:59 PM on May 4

I think it's probably more significant than that; if the Hamas guys get booted out of Qatar it's quite possible Israel will kill them.
posted by Justinian at 3:53 PM on May 4

Re: that WSJ article (found an MSN copy) and the hope that they're talking -

Heh: Israeli war cabinet minister Benny Gantz on Saturday said Israel has yet to receive an official Hamas response. Israel has yet to send a delegation to the talks, an Israeli official said.

I like how the pressure is being put to bear mostly on Hamas apparently, those really stubborn folks! Man why can't they just accept that, "The deal continues to be hung up on Hamas’s demand for a path to a permanent end to the fighting, while Israel insists on retaining the right to continue its campaign to destroy the group militarily."

if the Hamas guys get booted out of Qatar it's quite possible Israel will kill them.

Relevant risk for sure, considering that as long as they're outside occupied Palestine* the Israelis can apparently target accurately enough.

*getting sloppy in Lebanon though. Pity about that growing cataract condition.
posted by cendawanita at 6:52 PM on May 4 [4 favorites]

Well at least they are still talking and things are sort of quiet

Israel has been bombing Rafah basically continuously for weeks now. Your "sort of quiet" is doing a lot of work.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on May 4 [7 favorites]

By sort of quiet I mean officially only 9 people were killed in air strikes today instead of hundreds.
posted by interogative mood at 7:33 PM on May 4

Only 9.

Today.

Shall I file this under the Overton Window?
posted by cendawanita at 7:48 PM on May 4 [6 favorites]

"All Quiet on the Western Front".
posted by Justinian at 9:08 PM on May 4

Only 9.

Today.

To be fair, they were only Palestinians.
posted by flabdablet at 10:13 PM on May 4 [6 favorites]

Lol. LMAO even: (ToI - so not even liberal rag Haaretz) Journalists say Netanyahu is the ‘diplomatic official’ issuing statements on hostage talks
Several Israeli journalists are naming the “diplomatic official” who issued a pair of statements during Shabbat on the hostage deal being negotiated in Cairo as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

In this evening’s primetime broadcast, Channel 12’s Yaron Avraham says he won’t take part “in this game,” identifying Netanyahu as the official who issued the statements.

“These statements are not based on the view of the entire war cabinet,” Avraham adds, while saying that the anonymous official insisting in recent days that the IDF will enter Rafah is also Netanyahu.

As part of his report, Avraham says Netanyahu did not invite war cabinet member Benny Gantz and observer Gadi Eisenkot to a phone consultation today during which it was decided not to send a delegation to Cairo. Present on the call were Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, Strategic Affairs Minister Ron Dermer and National Security Adviser Tzachi Hanegbi.

The Haaretz daily’s military analyst Amos Harel also says the premier issued the statements, in a piece titled “the negotiations on a hostage deal have reached a critical point, and Netanyahu’s statement is hindering the chances of a deal.”

Biden's man.
posted by cendawanita at 11:59 PM on May 4 [4 favorites]

Really? Seems to me that Biden has been falling into line with whatever Netanyahu wants to a much greater extent than the other way around.

Biden, if anything, cares more about Israel's future than Netanyahu does; that prick only cares about himself.
posted by flabdablet at 1:09 AM on May 5 [2 favorites]

It is true that the last half year plus have been like I'm a non-consensual participant in a kink livestream....
posted by cendawanita at 1:40 AM on May 5 [4 favorites]

Stuff worth flagging:

HuffPost (Akbar Shahid Ahmed piece): Joe Biden Is Days From A Key Statement On Israel and Gaza. Here’s What The Ally Who Sought It Expects -
Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) spoke to HuffPost about a "warning sign" ahead of a deadline for Biden to say if Israel is violating international and U.S. law.
Starting in December, Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-Md.) rallied 19 senators to support legislation demanding assurances that all countries receiving American weaponry — including Israel — are complying with international and U.S. statutes barring violence against civilians and efforts to block humanitarian aid. In response, President Joe Biden in February issued a new policy known as NSM-20, which required federal agencies to send a report to Congress on Israel’s conduct during its Gaza operation by May 8.

The report poses a test for the White House: Will it acknowledge the alarming actions taken by its ally, strengthening calls for the U.S. to reassess its support for Israel, or will the administration risk embarrassment and outrage by misrepresenting Israeli behavior?

The administration appears to be split. The U.S. Agency for International Development and several State Department bureaus believe the administration cannot credibly say Israel is respecting either international law or the U.S. laws that require recipients of American military support to allow the free flow of U.S. humanitarian aid, according to Reuters and Devex — raising the prospect that Biden would have to withdraw military assistance. But the State Department team leading the report side-stepped the question of whether violations are occurring and instead emphasized the risks of cutting off support for Israel, per Reuters.

Meanwhile, other top State Department officials, like U.S. Ambassador to Israel Jack Lew, are internally endorsing Israel’s promises to abide by the law, despite broad skepticism of those claims from outside analysts, as HuffPost revealed in March.

Van Hollen said he’s alarmed by the disclosures about the administration’s handling of the report.

“The credibility of the U.S. government depends on it being honest and based in fact and law,” the Biden ally told HuffPost in a Thursday interview.

So far, Van Hollen said, “the reporting on the internal dynamics at the State Department clearly indicated that those who were most expert in applying the facts and the law were ignored and overlooked by those pushing a particular policy agenda.”

Together, the recent developments represent “a big warning sign, like a big flare,” with respect to the upcoming report, Van Hollen said.

The senator spoke approvingly of an alternative assessment of Israel’s actions that is already public: an independent analysis performed by an ad-hoc group of outside experts that investigated scores of examples of Israeli military actions in Gaza — incidents which, the authors said, violated international law and U.S. directives in “a clear pattern.”

Van Hollen called that assessment “a very important yardstick against which to compare what the Biden administration comes out with.” He told HuffPost he asked five of its authors to brief senators on Wednesday in a previously unreported private meeting.

“We had a total of 13 members — that’s more members than you get for a regular hearing in the United States Senate. So I think it was an expression of the depth of concern,” the senator said.

The assessment’s authors in attendance included former State Department official Josh Paul, who quit over Biden’s policy in a development first reported by HuffPost, and prominent Palestinian American attorney Noura Erakat.

The lawmakers’ openness to the assessment’s conclusions, even if they prove to run counter to the State Department’s, is extremely notable because of the pathway that Paul and his colleagues endorse. They say Israel’s military is showing “systematic disregard” for the international and U.S. norms, note “grave concerns” that the Biden administration is violating the law via prolonged backing for Israel’s offensive and urge “appropriate steps to prevent further violations” — which could range from limiting the procurement of weapons for specific Israeli units to a broad reset in U.S.-Israel cooperation.

Elsewhere the ping-pong between KSA and USA re: normalisation with Israel continues with the notable absence of Palestine for all it's about KSA not going ahead if there's no pathway to a 2SS (something not very pushy that today's Israel won't even consider, and USA meanwhile is going around like that friend who keeps telling other people they don't really mean it):
- Guardian: Saudis push for ‘plan B’ that excludes Israel from key deal with US - Riyadh seeks more modest agreement with Washington in absence of Gaza ceasefire and Netanyahu resistance to Palestinian state

- FT: US says defence pact with Saudi Arabia not possible without Israel deal -
National security adviser Jake Sullivan tells FT Weekend Festival three-way pact necessary for Mideast peace
Who's who's man? Heh: He added: “All we can do is work out what we think makes sense, [and] try to get as many countries in the region on board with it and then present it, and it will ultimately be up to the Israeli leadership and frankly ultimately the Israeli people can decide whether that’s a path they want to take or not.”

The Biden administration was edging towards a deal for Saudi Arabia to normalise relations with Israel before October 7, which would have led to Washington agreeing to a defence pact with Riyadh and supporting its civilian nuclear ambitions in return for Israel making concessions to the Palestinians.

Hamas’s attack and Israel’s retaliatory offensive in Gaza upended that process, but the US and Saudi Arabia have continued to discuss a potential deal as part of wider postwar plans to secure peace in the region.

But Saudi Arabia has made it clear that after October 7 it would require Israel to make far more significant concessions to Palestinians, insisting it would need to see “irreversible steps” towards the establishment of Palestinian state.

I mean, it's KSA, who's functional difference in this matter with the USA is apparently the initial: (Bloomberg) Saudi Arabia Steps Up Arrests Of Those Attacking Israel Online
Recent Saudi detentions have included an executive with a company involved in the kingdom’s Vision 2030 economic transformation plan — a cornerstone of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s agenda — according to people inside and outside Saudi Arabia with knowledge of the matter. The detainee expressed views on the Gaza conflict deemed by authorities to be incendiary, they said.

A media figure who said Israel should never be forgiven has also been arrested, the people said, as has an individual calling for the boycott of American fast food restaurants in the kingdom. The people shared information on condition that neither they nor those arrested be identified.

The Saudi Ministry of Interior and the government’s Human Rights Commission did not respond to requests for comment.

A person familiar with the Saudi government’s thinking acknowledged the arrests and attributed them to what he called a high level of alertness post-Oct. 7 and a desire by authorities to deter people from making online statements about the war that might impact national security.
posted by cendawanita at 3:15 AM on May 5 [5 favorites]

Only democracy in the Middle East has banned Al-Jazeera from operations.

Thousands of Israelis protest to demand a ceasefire to bring hostages back after rumors of Netanyahu scuttling a ceasefire deal.
posted by toastyk at 6:39 AM on May 5 [8 favorites]

Re: that WSJ article (found an MSN copy) and the hope that they're talking - ...

I like how the pressure is being put to bear mostly on Hamas apparently, those really stubborn folks! Man why can't they just accept that, "The deal continues to be hung up on Hamas’s demand for a path to a permanent end to the fighting, while Israel insists on retaining the right to continue its campaign to destroy the group militarily."

I agree. I'm so much wanting to see good news that even a piece like that gets my hopes up. But the majority of what I read is much more pessimistic on the ceasefire talks (much less any possibility of negotiating for a long term resolution). This update piece in the NYT is pretty typical of the pessimism:

A group representing families of the Israeli hostages in Gaza expressed concerns Sunday that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, under pressure from hard-line members of his governing coalition, was trying to stall or even sabotage a possible deal that could lead to a cease-fire and the release of captives held by Hamas. ...

Nahum Barnea, a prominent political columnist said in a column Sunday in Yediot Ahronot, a popular Hebrew daily news outlet, that he felt that the statements were “designed to scuttle the chances of a deal.”
posted by Dip Flash at 7:00 AM on May 5 [1 favorite]

They’ll probably delay the report citing national security and the sensitive nature of ongoing negotiations. If there is a ceasefire then the there will be some negotiations about more training for Israeli soldiers, policies etc. If Bibi succeeds in blowing up the ceasefire deal then a negative report might be issued; but without a ceasefire I don’t think Biden can hold his coalition together and win re-election. Trump will simply throw out the report and encourage Bibi to get his genocide over with quickly — his current position.

The grim reality we find ourselves in. A bunch of Americans will once again make things even worse because of the strength of “doing their own research”. Yes by all means pretend your uncompromising idealism isn’t going to result in more dead Palestinians, just as you take no responsibility for your votes for Jill Stein and Nader. Or how you think that Hamas’ October 7th attack wasn’t going to result in exactly this catastrophe, so it isn’t in any way Hamas’ fault this shit that everyone knew would happen, happened. I look forward to the lengthy retorts, and have a new sense of empathy for what health care workers endured during the height of the pandemic.
posted by interogative mood at 12:09 PM on May 5

The only American making things worse in Gaza in a significant way is Joe Biden. There is one simple trick to not losing the anti-genocide vote.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:12 PM on May 5 [8 favorites]

Apparently a shipment of ammunition has been put on hold by the US with no explanation. So we'll see.
posted by toastyk at 1:43 PM on May 5 [7 favorites]

how you think that Hamas’ October 7th attack wasn’t going to result in exactly this catastrophe,

You heard it here first, Israel is a rabid dog for which doing war crimes is not reasonably in its control.

Seems like a pretty good reason to argue against their existence to me.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:33 PM on May 5 [5 favorites]

pretend your uncompromising idealism isn’t going to result in more dead Palestinians

How did the realpolitik and compromising camp feel about the last... 56 years then, or even from 1982? Maybe even 2018's March of Return? It's always so inevitable coddling Israel has to be so fatal? Other allies have done less for more sanctions or at least more than a heavy frown. It feels good to say so if history only began in Oct 7 and even then presupposes a nation who's even more clownishly murderous by default than the USA post-9/11. What are the shared values here? Come straight out and admit that having been admitted to the echelons of civilized elite countries no other issue of sovereignty matters. If that's not true then cancel all sanctions against Russia for example, except of course, my mistake, Russia isn't part of the friend group. Of course also, my second mistake, Ukraine is after all a proper nation-state.

Then remove all arguments about the right of self-defence or moral warfare. Because we're just back to imperial geopolitics and the only thing that makes all this aggravation against genocide stupid is clearly people not understanding that the occupied territories have no right to claim sovereignty at all and it's been a particularly protracted and bloody episode of territorial expansion unlike China claiming most of the South China Sea. The only objection is clearly an aesthetic one. It's just not cricket to kill so clearly and unseemly. We were doing so well with the paperwork.

But always, some part of America is either blameless or to blame for everything at the same time. Never Israel. They just can't help it. Saying so isn't antisemitic.
posted by cendawanita at 5:53 PM on May 5 [8 favorites]

But seriously what are the shared values that make closing Al-Jazeera okay (of which Israel can be friend2 with Malaysia since we also had a prime minister who closed the KL office in a huff. However I don't need a VPN to check news on the website though.)? Is it the same values that's now caused British-Palestinian doctor and University of Glasgow rector Ghassan Abu Sitta persona non grata in all of Europe? (I guess that's one benefit of Brexit; or else he'd be displaced again). At least he's well-known, as the gang of shared values extends all the way here in Oceania too (Relatives ‘surprised and shocked’ after 68-year-old Gaza woman’s Australian visa cancelled on security grounds - Palestinian Australian advocates call for transparency after home affairs department cancels visa of Fatma Almassri, a diabetic living in a displaced persons’ camp, without warning).

It's not so much how foolish idealism is causing the death of Palestinians. It's just that foolish idealism is stupid enough to consider Palestinians as people, deserving the same rights, which of course as with every other instance of status threat, is perceived as being given MORE rights by the bootwearers and bootlickers. How dare these fools indeed.
posted by cendawanita at 6:18 PM on May 5 [7 favorites]

Anyway, this finally is posted on English-language Haaretz (analysis piece): Netanyahu Hoped Hamas Would Reject the Cease-fire Offer. When It Didn't, He Turned to Sabotage -
Israel's criminal defendant prime minister, more focused on saving his incompetent far-right government than saving the hostages who have spent seven months trapped in Gaza, is doing everything he can to torpedo Israel's last and best chance at bringing the hostages home
Gantz hit the nail on the head this time. Netanyahu is fleeing from a hostage deal. The closer it gets, the faster he runs to avoid it. At least twice in recent months he has sabotaged the sensitive moves toward a deal, whether through public statements or covert messages, or by curbing the mandate of the negotiating team. It was no different this time.

What was the point of these statements, before Hamas had even responded to the proposal, if not to thwart and sabotage.

(...) Netanyahu had hoped that the Egyptian proposal, which was more far-reaching than anything he had been willing to accept in the past, would be rejected by Hamas. Over the weekend, when the negotiations took a positive turn, Netanyahu found himself in distress, as was expressed by his flurry of statements. Given our familiarity with his family environment, including his pampered son on the front in Miami, his fright is indeed understandable.

If Hamas says "yes" and even if it adds a "but" in one form or another, Netanyahu will have no choice but to carry through what he agreed with Egypt and the United States. Doing so could lead his Kahanist right flank to bring down the government. On the other hand, if his attempts at sabotage succeed, the National Union could pull out of the government and its leaders, who still have the trust of a large section of the public, would join the growing calls for early elections.

Is it any wonder he is hysterical? His other options aren't promising either. If the deal doesn't go through, he is already committed to ordering the IDF to begin an operation in Rafah. That would cause trouble with the Egyptians and Americans. And if he does opt for an operation in Rafah, then what kind of operation? An intense, broad campaign of the kind the IDF waged in Khan Yunis and Gaza City will be the final straw that will make Israel an outcast and lead to Netanyahu being accused of war crimes. A 'feeble' operation will make him a regional and global joke.

Netanyahu's well known conduct showed itself vis-a-vis the International Criminal Court in The Hague, which is considering issuing arrest warrants against him (and other senior government and IDF officials). Instead of taking discreet action through diplomatic channels, is lashed out at the court, threatening and cursing it, contrary to all the advice he received from the professional legal echelons. The court ended up putting out an extraordinary statement over the weekend in which it rejected the threats and scare tactics.

One may ask, what leads Netanyahu to shoot himself in the foot over and again. The answer is connected to his psyche. His default is to exercise force. Just as he applied force in the dealings with the judicial system, the State Prosecutor's Office and the Attorney General before charges were filed against him, he is doing the same thing now with an international legal forum.

Pressure, incitement and threats didn't prevent an indictment being filed against him. Neither will they prevent arrest warrants being issued – if the ongoing inquiry comes to the conclusion that they should be issued.

Netanyahu, however, doesn't learn, he doesn't draw conclusions. His flawed personality, his temper tantrums, his submission to his wife and his son's craziness, drag him into humiliation every time, and humiliates the country that has the misfortune to have Netanyahu as its leader.

The total failure who sits in the Prime Minister's Office has succeeded over the past 211 days in leading Israel out of the frying pan and into the fire.

The total failure whose singular achievements is showing everyone else that it's an entire nation of war crime scrapbookers and meme lords I guess. It's probably a fool's bet to guess who I think is being foolish. But ride or die, huh.
posted by cendawanita at 6:29 PM on May 5 [12 favorites]

One may ask, what leads Netanyahu to shoot himself in the foot over and again. The answer is connected to his psyche. His default is to exercise force. Just as he applied force in the dealings with the judicial system, the State Prosecutor's Office and the Attorney General before charges were filed against him, he is doing the same thing now with an international legal forum.

That link won't open for me so I can't read the full piece, but at this point I think he has no option but to ride the tiger to stay in power (and with that, out of legal trouble). If he even pauses the fighting with a ceasefire, much less negotiates a longer peace, he runs a high risk of getting booted from office. But what a crap person, to hold everyone hostage to his petty desires.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:22 PM on May 5

Or how you think that Hamas’ October 7th attack wasn’t going to result in exactly this catastrophe, so it isn’t in any way Hamas’ fault this shit that everyone knew would happen, happened.

Not sure if strawman or merely irrelevant.
posted by flabdablet at 8:36 PM on May 5 [5 favorites]

Ceasefire talks have broken down. Israel rejected Hamas’ latest round of revisions to the deal and it seems the Hamas negotiation team has left Cairo. Biden seems to be holding up an arms shipment to try to get Israel to delay the attack in Rafah while everyone tries to get the sides back to the negotiating table.

Hamas also fired rockets at a humanitarian aid crossing from Israel today, killing three soldiers and injuring others. Israel has closed the crossing point in response. The BBC has the details.
posted by interogative mood at 9:36 PM on May 5

Let me be the first to fail to leap to Hamas's defence over that, despite having been given more than ample reason to assume that everything Israel says about it is lies except for the part where they've closed down a humanitarian aid corridor.
posted by flabdablet at 9:50 PM on May 5 [5 favorites]

As noted by this Israeli tweet, Israeli media is pretty matter of fact where the rocket hit (military assets meant for the Rafah invasion, not the crossing): per Ynet, "The forces that were attacked were at two locations – a security post near the Amitai military base and an open area near a tent or bomb shelter. One rocket struck an electricity pole at the Base, another hit an empty house in Kibbutz Kerem Shalom, and another hit a building near Sufa Outpost.

"The forces were deployed to guard the equipment and tanks of battalions preparing to enter Rafah. In recent weeks, dozens of tanks and armored personnel carriers have been deployed in the area as part of ground operation preparations. The IDF issued a general alert due to the exposed position of the soldiers, leading to the deployment of shelters and the consolidation of forces."

But yeah, the crossing is closed. Never let a good excuse go to waste.

ToI (last Friday): Report: US rejected proposed plan by PA, Arab nations for Palestinian statehood -
Proposal said to include 180-day deadline for negotiations, release of all Palestinian prisoners, PA receiving control of West Bank and Gaza; Blinken said to call it unrealistic

Back to Ynet, out today: Top Secret: In a 2018 letter, Netanyahu asks Qatar to fund Hamas -
In letter seen by handful of people, PM urges Doha to deliver $30 million to Gaza monthly, claiming funding Hamas would preserve regional stability and avert humanitarian crisis

The funding thing is old news but I guess the letter is yet another piece of material evidence.
posted by cendawanita at 11:30 PM on May 5 [8 favorites]

Reports are in that civilians are being told to evacuate from Rafah.
posted by cendawanita at 11:37 PM on May 5 [6 favorites]

Mohammad Alsaafin on Twitter

Another indictment of how bad so much Western media has been on this story is that the Kerem Shalom military base (which Hamas attacked) is not the same as the Kerem Shalom crossing (which Israel shut in retaliation).
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:59 AM on May 6 [9 favorites]

what a crap person, to hold everyone hostage to his petty desires.

Makes him the perfect leader for a Zionist state, honestly. "If you don't support our campaign of ethnic cleansing we'll call you an antisemite!"
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:18 AM on May 6 [1 favorite]

Norman Finkelstein sees this clearly for what it is

"Now, they don't want to mow the lawn, they want to extirpate all the blades of grass in Gaza.. They want to render Gaza uninhabitable"
posted by elkevelvet at 9:45 AM on May 6 [6 favorites]

Al-Jazeera and i24 reports that Hamas has accepted a ceasefire deal brokered by Qatar and Egypt.
posted by toastyk at 10:10 AM on May 6 [4 favorites]

Same AJE link 3 mins later, is basically an update of Israel not accepting the proposal.

JFC.
posted by cendawanita at 10:19 AM on May 6 [4 favorites]

Sigh. I was really hoping for an end to bloodshed. I'm tired.
posted by toastyk at 10:25 AM on May 6 [4 favorites]

Ceasefire Hamas agreed to is similar to proposal Israel approved (Haaretz) - what are we even doing here:

According to a foreign diplomatic source familiar with the negotiations, the outline Hamas accepted Monday night is, at its core, the same as the Egyptian proposal which Israel has already approved.
posted by toastyk at 11:14 AM on May 6 [4 favorites]

what are we even doing here

At the expense of tens of thousands of lives, apparently to watch the western order just flame out into derangement trying to defend an apartheid colonial regime.
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on May 6 [6 favorites]

I'm just relaying information reported on the BBC. I suggest you send them your editorial complaints, objections and revisions.

CNN has an article up about the obstacles to finalizing a ceasefire agreement.

Hamas' negotiating team has left Cairo but will return tomorrow for more talks.

These kind of negotiations always come down to the wire. It is possible this is all just posturing and theater to prove to their own side that they got the best deal. It is also possible both sides are just putting on a show for the cameras, so they can retain the high ground in the minds of their supporters. If the last Hamas proposal was really that close to the Israeli proposal then I think we'll see a ceasefire at the last minute; but we'll see.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 AM on May 6

“‘Are Jews Indigenous?’ A Quechua Jew Weighs In,” Daniel Delgado, Life is a Sacred Text, 06 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 12:01 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]

Talks are going to resume on the latest proposal from Hamas. The Israeli war cabinet has said the Rafah operation will continue. Israel launched a number of airstrikes today in southern Gaza and Rafa1h including on an UNRWA compound they claimed was used by Hamas. Supposedly Netanyahu committed to reopening the Kerem Shalom crossing, but no timetable has been given. The IDF claims to have setup a more robust humanitarian area in southern Gaza where civilians in areas targeted by the latest operation can flee where they claim there are tents, field hospitals, food and water. I'm sure the truth of what they've actually done in terms of setting up this area will be reported on soon. Given the IDF's track record it is unlikely to be anything more than spin, and probably an area they will bomb.
posted by interogative mood at 4:23 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]

I'm just relaying information reported on the BBC. I suggest you send them your editorial complaints, objections and revisions.

You are here on MetaFilter and the BBC is not. Your obligation to correct misinformation here is entirely separate from theirs over there.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:54 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]

From Yair Rosenberg:

Reportedly, one major difference between Hamas's hostage/ceasefire proposal today and previous proposals is that Hamas is refusing to commit to releasing only *living* hostages in the first phase of the deal. It is insisting that the 33 hostages released can be alive *or* dead.

posted by Justinian at 5:00 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]

I guess we found the small detail to justify enacting more state violence on civilians.
posted by cendawanita at 5:39 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]

My understanding is that it's been very difficult for Hamas to keep track of which hostages are in fact still alive, given that Israel keeps bombing indiscriminately (and some of the hostages are in the hands of other groups like PIJ).
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:14 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]

Oh, you and your endless reality-based excuses.
posted by flabdablet at 7:01 PM on May 6 [4 favorites]

These hostages are only their most valuable bargaining chip. Hamas has held onto power in Gaza for 20 years because they are a disciplined and well organized group. Months into this assault and they still are mostly intact as a fighting force and their soldiers are not lacking for ammunition or supplies, even if civilians are struggling.

The idea that they can’t produce a list and don’t know exactly how many they hold, and their status is not credible.
posted by interogative mood at 7:50 PM on May 6

It's presupposes the idea that Hamas has incredible levels of superpower and shielding previously unknown to man (or other actual security and war analysts), as well as resources, and I'll just caution that I've noted that even (or especially?) in liberal Zionist spaces I've observed a similar *-philic sentiment that tends to arise in colonial societies in trying to reason out why their intractable terrorism problem seems so intractable. Hamas and other Palestinian fighters are still just people. If you had been occasionally watching Abu Obeidah clips you'll see even he has lost weight. (Now, IDF analysts watching the same clips may conclude and that's why current strategy must continue but I'm not and I don't.)

Reorienting to the fact that these are (just) guerilla fighters with uneven coverage, support, and the attendant cons of having to operate as independent mobile cells + the levels of destruction we can objectively assess + IDF themselves not being particularly strategic in their flushing out tactics, the idea that they would have trouble producing such a coordinated and coherent list isn't so unreasonable. It requires a diff set of factors as opposed to mobilizing infantry cells.

Anyway with that said --

Poor bb: (BBC) Tough choices for Netanyahu after Hamas upends expectations

I'll let Ori Goldberg say his piece:
1/ It is maddening and astounding how quickly Israel's house of cards threatens to collapse. All Hamas had to do was take the first step. Now Hamas seems practical and level-headed and Israel, hemming and hawing, seems like an uninspired villain in third-rate thriller. --->

2/ For days we've been hearing about Israel's lack of choice forcing it to "operate" (perpetrate genocide) in Rafah. Turns out that where there's a will, there's a way The problem? Hamas had the will and found a way. Israel will shed more blood but it has lost control. --->

3/ "Destroying Hamas", "returning the hostages", "not compromising on security"; all lies. Israel had no plan as it tried to be both ultimate victim and ultimate predator. It failed abysmally in both tasks, cheapening the memories of Israel's dead and keeping Hamas alive. --->

4/ Israel under Netanyahu will, as ever, pay the highest price for the cheapest prize at the worst possible time. Like Civil War general Ambrose Burns, Israel had managed to wring one last spectacular defeat from the jaws of victory.

Tough choices. In the movie Idle Hands, the protag eventually had to cut off his demon-possessed hand - but this is not a movie. No one *has* to keep killing, especially not very strategically. But we're all reaping the dividends of not thinking of Palestinians as people aren't we. They're either human animals or beings made of shadow and fire.
posted by cendawanita at 8:10 PM on May 6 [7 favorites]

"Why won't you just die??!" is the thing you say to both the cockroach problem or an incoming armoured tank, as you frantically deplete your rounds. Either way, the mental picture isn't human.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 PM on May 6 [3 favorites]

It has to be considered if perhaps Bibi is actually Hamas's greatest hypeman. Because now Hamas is casually sauntering to the moral high ground, and do things like repeating their call to the ICC to also investigate them and also, via Al-Jazeera, release the full text of the ceasefire terms Israel said no to.

The US has experience being punked by guerilla movements though, so I hope there'll be a G2G peer exchange symposium soon.

Anyway: ...The framework agreement aims at: The release of all Israeli captives in the Gaza Strip, civilians or military, alive or otherwise, from all periods, in exchange for a number of prisoners held by Israel as agreed upon, and a return to a sustainable calm that leads to a permanent ceasefire and a withdrawal of Israeli forces from the Gaza Strip, its reconstruction and the lifting of the siege...
posted by cendawanita at 8:22 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]

interogative mood: I think it's plausible that Hamas doesn't know the status of every hostage. There are almost certainly some held by other only loosely affiliated groups for which they don't have visibility. But the idea that they don't know the status of at least 33 hostages is not at all credible. If they have at least 33 living hostages then there's no reason not to agree to return living hostages in a ceasefire agreement. If they don't have at least 33 living hostages then they have to come clean about that which obviously they wouldn't want to do because it removes their biggest bargaining chip.

I feel like it should be utterly obvious why you can't agree to a deal in which the initial 33 hostages can be returned dead or alive in the absence of an admission by the other party that they don't have alive hostages. But apparently it isn't judging by some of the comments.

They won't agree to accept dead hostages without that admission because Hamas could just kill any hostages they intend to return, give back bodies, and technically be in compliance with the terms of the deal. How is that not obvious? I get that a bunch of people's position is that Israel should just do a unilateral ceasefire no matter what Hamas does because the entire operation is considered illegitimate but if we're talking about trying to get to an agreement that could actually happen, the "returned hostages have to be returned alive" stipulation is like... fundamental and obvious.
posted by Justinian at 9:51 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]

They won't agree to accept dead hostages without that admission because Hamas could just kill any hostages they intend to return, give back bodies, and technically be in compliance with the terms of the deal.

Absolutely possible, depending on how and what is being understood of their psychology. I don't know enough to claim, I am noting that this needs to be considered plausible to even be considered. Now, I don't know enough, as I said, certainly not to the extent with what we know about how Israel the state treats Palestinians in captivity (from rekidnapping to holding bodies in detention to serve out sentences in full). So right now is it possible isn't the same question as is it plausible. But if we're getting into movie villain logic then honestly it's seems valid to start thinking there's no point negotiating because nothing will be true and everything is a ruse - which, if I extend my own conclusions, means Palestinians ought never to start negotiating with Israel at all. But that's bleak and unproductive and genuinely leads us nowhere.

And let's say we can at least go with, Hamas won't be able to quickly coordinate and validate 33 statuses because different groups and other factors. It doesn't negate or make suspicious the point about being able to produce hostages both alive and dead. It can just mean, within their immediate purview they can guarantee 33 bodies can be produced. You don't have to invent James Bond twists where people are ferried out and shot to death on the way out.

But I can see this is a sticking point which goes back to earlier rounds where the contention sticks on the fact that you can't trust the other guy, and other historical examples have been raised.

Because, does Israel care for the hostages or not? Even dead bodies provide closure with the opportunity for their families to give them decent burials, something you can't say is a given for Palestinians. What if the Bond villain version of Hamas only kills 75% of the 33 "only"? The other 25% still alive mean nothing? You either value a life or you don't at all. Treating people like numbers and being more partial to doomsday hypotheticals of third-act kills rather than the reality of sick and definitely dying still-alive people seems to be a genuine issue of not wanting to lose any upper hand, except now the only nation-state in occupied Palestine stands to lose everything.
posted by cendawanita at 11:08 PM on May 6 [5 favorites]

I'm sure they do eventually want the bodies of any deceased hostages back, cendawanita, but if there are at least 33 living hostages it makes no sense to accept bodies while people are still being held. That doesn't mean they don't care, it means that for what should be obvious reasons its way more important to get a hostage back from captivity sooner than a dead body. A dead body isn't suffering. A captive is and is at risk of becoming a dead body. If Israel's offer was that they would hand over dead Palestinian prisoners in any swap I don't think you'd be making the same argument?
posted by Justinian at 11:35 PM on May 6 [2 favorites]

You know, in my less charitable moments, i keep arriving at the conclusion that Hamas should, indeed, just release all the hostages. Every single one, soldier and civilian alike! --right out the front door of wherever they happen to be at the moment. Give them all white flags and some provisions, notify the Israeli government, and see how many make it home alive without being massacred by the IOF.

Israel doesn't care about the hostages. The government has been extremely clear that they were never anything other than an excuse!
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:44 PM on May 6 [7 favorites]

If Israel's offer was that they would hand over dead Palestinian prisoners in any swap I don't think you'd be making the same argument?

You underestimate how horrified I had been to discover the lengths of time Israel holds on to Palestinian bodies (years in fact) and not allowing their families to them (the latest most famous one in fact being the recently deceased Walid Daqqa). I absolutely would say yes to those bodies, and so would the families begging for their return.

Now I'm thinking pro-Israelis keep trying to come up with nightmare scenarios not realising they already exist, on the state's side.

Also note, you cannot divorce this detail from what the larger negotiations are about, which is about not killing any more civilians. Even as this supposed haggling is happening, people are actively harmed and killed. Haggle if you want but pause the violence, but that's a bridge too far which makes the haggling a distraction.

On distraction, now who's the one who didn't send a delegation to Cairo and is crying that the USA betrayed them? Well, it's on Axios, so: Israelis frustrated with U.S. handling of hostage talks

On compromises, as Nour Odeh noted: 2. Hamas showed flexibility but will not get everything it wanted: Not all Palestinian detainees & captives will be released. A clear cut commitment to cessation of war is not in the text but they’re banking on promises from US & mediators that there would be no going back to war

Hamas is already signing on not getting back everyone. Israel could have.

A dead body isn't suffering.

Don't make this argument in front of religious Jews and Muslims. Or at least those to whom at the very least the final rites will matter to them then.
posted by cendawanita at 11:55 PM on May 6 [6 favorites]

(now, I believe this is a shared belief but I'll let you in on this bit of Muslim belief - a dead body feels pain, feels pain at levels multiplied compared to when that person is alive - according to some scholars (there are varied agreements on to what extent) but it underlines the final rites where you're meant to handle the body very gently and how decomposition is felt and how even before the final days or the apocalypse, a resting body in their graves can still be faced with a preview of their final fate - such as a constricted and hot grave compared to a spacious and cool one, though I think this last is more of a Muslim one. So you don't have to believe this but for someone who does, a dead body isn't just a physical object. Now extend your imagination and empathy to someone whose family member or friend is undergoing this for years without any relief of the final rites.)
posted by cendawanita at 12:16 AM on May 7 [10 favorites]

So you don't have to believe this but for someone who does, a dead body isn't just a physical object. Now extend your imagination and empathy to someone whose family member or friend is undergoing this for years without any relief of the final rites.)

At the risk of furthering a tangent, I think this is a blind-spot for US/European historically Christian countries, which have their own hang ups about dead bodies (like displaying them in churches and museums) but don't consider dead bodies in quite the same way you describe, or in the ways that Native Americans do, just for a couple of examples.

About the negotiations, one of the articles I was reading last night made the point that both sides have reasons for not fully wanting a ceasefire. Bibi's incentives for continuing the fighting are obvious, but Hamas has some potential benefit as well, such as the expectation that world opinion will continue to shift as long as the violence continues. But they also both have pressures and incentives to reach a ceasefire, and I just don't know how that all balances out. Every time I've confidently made a prediction in this war, I've been wrong, so I'm not going to try and predict this. Personally, I want them to sign a ceasefire, even if it is imperfect, immediately so that people stop being killed; the longer-term details can get worked out over time, particularly if trust is regained through good-faith ceasefire negotiations.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:55 AM on May 7 [1 favorite]

I’m kind of horrified at this back and forth questioning the motives of Hamas here. They have made a proposal that fairly quickly, if not in the first exchange, results in all hostages, regardless of status, being returned. What motivation is there — especially given the world watching and previous offers from them — is there for them to construct the first exchange in this matter except then being honest about their own capabilities? It’s kind of hard to go find semi-affiliated groups and make them give up their hostages, even if you know where they are, while under constant attack. It’s possible that those groups won’t even talk with Hamas about hostage return without Hamas leaders proving they can get a ceasefire. Whereas if Hamas agreed to only return living folks in the first round and then FAILED to do so, it would tank the deal immediately — and again it would be Hamas’ fault and be seen as a sign of them intentionally making the deal fail. Nitpicking and guessing at Hamas leadership’s capabilities like this feels very much like giving Israel all the credit and grace and understanding while expecting Hamas and Palestinians to somehow — despite being the obviously lower resourced group — able to manage all complexities and difficulties and if they fail to then they aren’t “serious” about peace.
posted by R343L at 7:55 AM on May 7 [5 favorites]

And after all, as Bassem Youssef patiently attempted to point out to the reliably thick-headed Piers Morgan over two painful hours six months ago, this isn't really about Hamas and never has been.

October 7th was Hamas handing the Israeli Government a golden opportunity to advance its longstanding agenda of creating a land without a people while shedding crocodile tears over both the fate of its own citizens and a worldwide rise in antisemitism.

Every time I've confidently made a prediction in this war, I've been wrong

Here's mine: Israel is much more gratified by dead Palestinians than live Israeli hostages, and it will keep on killing and killing and maiming and disappearing and displacing and telling barefaced lies about all of it for as long as the US keeps on choosing not to force it to stop. Which is exactly what the US will keep on choosing for at least as long as either Biden or TFG occupies the Oval Office.

Biden might stop short of invading The Hague once Bibi, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir eventually get arrested.
posted by flabdablet at 8:56 AM on May 7 [8 favorites]

Husam Zomlot interviewed by Krishnan Guru-Murthy in November of last year:

Zomlot: The moment your colleagues ask that question [to condemn October 7th], before I answer, our audience and viewers will immediately get the impression that violence comes from our side and Israel is always in a state of self-defense. Maybe sometimes it overreacts, but in self-defense. Nothing, nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing. It's the other way around.

Guru-Murthy: I mean, this has obviously been going on for decades, which is what—

Zomlot: Every act of violence, every act of terrorism comes from the occupying state and everything else is a reaction to that. That's the truth.

Guru-Murthy: But in every instance, in every eruption, there is something that sets it off. And of course as I have said to the Israeli Ambassador, this is not something that started on October the 7th, this is something that is set in decades of history, a century of history. But on October the 7th, there was an attack; there was a reaction to that attack. I'm not saying anything started on October 7th—

Zomlot: No, no, no, there was no reaction to that attack. I just explained to you what happened since then was not a reaction, was an action by Israel for ethnic cleansing. So it was not a reaction to what Hamas did on the 7th. It wasn't. It was a plan on the table—

Guru-Murthy: That's a matter of opinion, you can't say that as fact..

Zomlot: Opinion? Opinion? Ask the UN. Ask the UN, they will tell you what has taken place since the 7th. You are talking about a very classic case. Go back to the Balkans and see what happened. It's the same. Of course, in our case—

Guru-Murthy: You're saying it was designed, the fact that people—

Zomlot: Of course it was designed. We have to correct this. It was not a reaction to the 7th of October, it was an act of aggression designed before. They used the 7th of October to unfold it. They used the 7th of October to play it out. That's it.
posted by i like crows very much at 9:55 AM on May 7 [10 favorites]

Like, I am sure the attacks on wagon trains by Indigenous braves was terrifying and there were deaths and often brutal deaths

I am sure the occasional slaughter of entire frontier family households was terrifying to the settlers in an area. I am sure this seemed like acts of terror.

Is it the space we have since these events, the distance to see more clearly what was happening? These last futile acts, during a time when the only answer to Right or Wrong was: Manifest Destiny

so, it's the 21st century. When we are all close to death, will we have more or less wisdom about this stuff. and again, what does this matter now, where hunger and sickness will claim many lives well after a ceasefire is declared, whenever that actually happens.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:13 AM on May 7 [5 favorites]

I just saw.Biden's remarks at today's ceremony at the Capitol on the nightly news. My eyebrows raised up so high they are still above the altitude of the ISS.
posted by ob1quixote at 4:24 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]

That is such an incredibly racist depiction of indiginious men.. Wow. Braves attacking wagon trains and frontier settlers. Really and all the self described anti-colonizers who favorited it. Good grief.
posted by interogative mood at 4:27 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]

The word "braves" is a problem, to be sure. Is it your contention that native peoples did NOT resist colonialism by attacking settlers, sometimes including civilians? (Because that definitely did happen!) Or that, regardless of its truth value, it is racist to invoke native peoples in such a way?
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:50 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]

That is such an incredibly racist depiction of indiginious men.. Wow. Braves attacking wagon trains and frontier settlers.

Violence between Native Americans and European settlers was a historical reality. There were also plenty of Native groups that interacted nonviolently with settlers, because they involved different social and political groups at different points across a long period of time and a lot of space. And many interactions began peacefully and turned significantly violent only with the beginning of the ethnic cleansing and genocide campaigns of the US government.

But there were definitely periods of violent resistance by Native groups in response to the devastation of game, acts of violence against Native communities, and unilateral seizures of land by settlers or the US government.

In particular during the "Sioux War", when the Lakota and Cheyenne responded to the murder of a chief and several other deliberate provocations with fighting against both the military and settlers. Most of the archetypal wagon train attacks occurred during this conflict. It was a period of violent resistance by Indigenous people against both civilian settlers and the military backing them. One in which both contemporary and later media portrayals frequently portrayed civilian targets as uninvolved innocents and the attackers as mindlessly hateful.

I am not Indigenous myself, but nothing about the evocation of the period seems particularly out of line, other than the use of the word "braves". (Which while I believe was intended to emphasize what the narrative of conflict with indigenous peoples would be among white audience of the time, could probably have been done more thoughtfully.)

The point being that resistance to colonization almost always comes from a place of desperation, and the people actually engaging in colonization, despite nominally being noncombatants, are very often targets of brutal violence. That violence is very often perceived as irrational terrorism or savagery by those subject to it, when it is in fact the product of a long period of violence against the colonized population. Any attempt to draw clear parallels between Indigenous American resistance to colonization and the resistance to Israeli colonization will be deeply flawed, of course. The world, the participants, and the history are very different, but the colonialist double standard about violence is very much intact.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:11 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]

interogative mood, I favorited it, and did so believing that elkvelvet used the term "braves" semi-ironically or referring to the tropes of the era . . . I'm open to being corrected by elkvelvet . . . regardless, the substance of the comment is pretty spot on.

Also, I don't think "braves" is so much racist as it is reductive, as in the indigenous warrior who can be reduced to a simple attribute. Not great, but not necessarily racist.

So did you have a critique of the substance of the comment . . . ?
posted by pt68 at 6:52 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]

(n.b., I am happy to be corrected about the term "brave" . . . )
posted by pt68 at 6:57 PM on May 7

all the self described anti-colonizers who favorited it.

It's almost as if there are people capable of alluding to the language of oppression without swallowing the framing baked into that language hook, line and sinker.
posted by flabdablet at 7:05 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]

Idk if it's the same impulse as I've seen here which is an overcorrection that then prefers references to the other cliche, the noble savage trope - in part because it helps to establish the civilized nature of the indigenous but it also means you start ranking on who's worthy of being talked to on how decorous they are and not because they're humans, and residents and have claims on that basis. IMO.

Yeah indigenous* people fight. They rebel. They revolt. They too can commit violence.

*Speaking as someone no longer indigenous, just native.
posted by cendawanita at 7:14 PM on May 7 [2 favorites]

Between 1840-1860 during the peak of the wagon train era between 300,000-500,000 people took the route. According to historian John Urah there were only about 351 settlers killed vs 425 natives killed by settlers. This isn’t to say that attacks never happened; but the more common interaction between settlers and indigenous people was of trade and hiring of guides. As migration shifted from the west coast into the Great Plains there was more fighting but that was mostly the army vs the tribes. Settlers usually didn’t arrive until after the area was cleared — with some exceptions in the Dakotas, Oklahoma and Texas.
posted by interogative mood at 7:14 PM on May 7

Yes, and yet those attacks plainly became a fabric of the mainstream imagination in order to deny native people their rights. Such attacks also needed coordination so how many natives were tarred as collaborators? Reorienting it to Palestinians, how many % of them actually picked up a weapon and actually attacked Israeli and Zionist forces (as well as civilians) in the last 100 years? How many % of them were involved on Oct 7?

Did that stop Israelis and international Zionists (one of whom just scored a Vanity Fair cover) to tar them all as rapists, terrorists, and "Hamas"? Hasn't this impression drove a lot of ill will that presented a case that negotiations with them would be impossible? Just in the last 48 hours in this thread we're contending "Hamas" would just kill hostages since after all the ceasefire terms could accept dead bodies as well.
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 PM on May 7 [11 favorites]

Between 1840-1860 during the peak of the wagon train era between 300,000-500,000 people took the route. According to historian John Urah there were only about 351 settlers killed vs 425 natives killed by settlers.

A relatively very small amount of violence against noncombatants was used as an emotional rallying cry to justify genocide and territorial expansion the settler government was already planning. Can't imagine what parallel there could be.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:22 PM on May 7 [8 favorites]

Despite the fact that the ceasefire terms as shared above regarding the hostages, when in detail goes something like this:
------
Exchange of captives and prisoners between the two sides:

During the first phase, Hamas shall release 33 Israeli captives (alive or dead), including women (civilians and soldiers), children (under the age of 19 who are not soldiers), those over the age of 50, and the sick, in exchange for a number of prisoners in Israeli prisons and detention centres, according to the following [criteria]:

Hamas shall release all living Israeli captives, including civilian women and children (under the age of 19 who are not soldiers). In return, Israel shall release 30 children and women for every Israeli detainee released, based on lists provided by Hamas, in order of detention.
Hamas shall release all living Israeli captives (over the age of 50), the sick, and wounded civilians. In return, Israel shall release 30 elderly (over 50) and sick prisoners for every Israeli captive, based on lists provided by Hamas, in order of detention.
Hamas shall release all living Israeli female soldiers. In return, Israel shall release 50 prisoners (30 serving life sentences, 20 sentenced) for every Israeli female soldier, based on lists provided by Hamas.

Scheduling the exchange of captives and prisoners between the parties in the first stage:

Hamas shall release three Israeli detainees on the third day of the agreement, after which Hamas shall release three other detainees every seven days, starting with women as much as possible (civilians and female soldiers). In the sixth week, Hamas shall release all remaining civilian detainees included in this phase. In return, Israel shall release the agreed-upon number of Palestinian prisoners, according to lists Hamas will provide.
Hamas will provide information about the Israeli detainees who will be released at this stage by the seventh day (if possible).
On the 22nd day, the Israeli side shall release all prisoners from the Shalit deal who have been re-arrested.
If there are fewer than 33 living Israeli detainees to be released, a number of bodies from the same categories shall be released to complete this stage. In return, Israel will release all women and children who were arrested from the Gaza Strip after October 7, 2023 – provided this is done in the fifth week of this stage.
The exchange process is linked to the extent of commitment to the agreement, including the cessation of military operations, the withdrawal of Israeli forces, the return of displaced persons, as well as the entry of humanitarian aid.
All necessary legal procedures to ensure that freed Palestinian prisoners are not re-arrested on the same charges are to be completed.
The steps of the first stage above do not constitute a basis for negotiating the second stage. Punitive measures and penalties that were taken against prisoners and detainees in Israeli prisons and detention camps after October 7, 2023, are to be lifted and their conditions improved, including individuals who were arrested after this date.
No later than the 16th day of the first phase, indirect talks will begin between the parties to agree on the details of the second phase of this agreement, with regard to the exchange of prisoners and captives from both parties (soldiers and remaining men), provided that they are completed and agreed upon before the end of the fifth week of this stage.
----

Ctrl+F where is "living" is grouped together with "(or dead)" or similar phrasing, and count them.
posted by cendawanita at 7:24 PM on May 7 [3 favorites]

Like, my god, even with all the debunking (that Haaretz the paper itself published), we have this article from yesterday revolving around a documentary on Oct 7 and the sexual violence on that day being presented with this headline: 'We're Dealing With a Sexual Shoah as It's Happening'

Like jfc, racism callouts? The call is coming from inside the house.
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 PM on May 7 [6 favorites]

In the meantime, Gideon Levy tries his best, and had this published, and where's the outrage?
Palestinian Released From Israeli Prison Describes Beatings, Sexual Abuse and Torture -
Amer Abu Halil, a West Bank resident who was active in Hamas and was jailed without trial, recalls the wartime routine he endured in Israel's Ketziot Prison

He's not even Gazan. Is it because he's a man? Or really just a Palestinian. This came out last week, to little or no reflection on the part of the jailers.

How relevant to the current tangent on racial epithets: On October 26, large forces of the Prison Service's Keter unit, a tactical intervention unit, accompanied by dogs, one of them unleashed, stormed into the prison. The wardens and the dogs went on a rampage, attacking the inmates whose screams left the whole prison in a state of terror, Abu Halil recalls. The walls were soon covered with inmates' blood. "You are Hamas, you are ISIS, you raped, murdered, abducted and now your time has come," said one warden to the prisoners. The blows that followed were brutal, the inmates were shackled.

The beatings became a daily affair. Occasionally the guards demanded of prisoners that they kiss an Israeli flag and declaim, "Am Yisrael Chai!" – "The People of Israel live." They were also ordered to curse the prophet Mohammed. The usual call to prayer in the cells was prohibited. The prisoners were afraid to utter any word starting with the sound "h" lest the guards suspect they had said "Hamas."

I've opted not to copy the bit with the anal rape and violation involving dogs.

But yeah, a "sexual Shoah".
posted by cendawanita at 7:43 PM on May 7 [9 favorites]

2 hours ago: (ToI) US signals backing for ‘limited op’ after IDF takes over Gazan side of Rafah crossing -
State Department says legitimate for Israel to prevent Hamas from collecting revenue at border gate with Egypt, while urging quick reopening of crossing so aid deliveries continue

1 hour ago: (WashPo) U.S. signals optimism for Gaza cease-fire as Israel moves into Rafah -
As negotiations resumed, the administration struggled to define Israel’s military advance as less than the major assault President Biden has warned against.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[new thread will be up in the next day or so, just to note - thanks for taking up the baton, human ecologist!]
posted by cendawanita at 8:15 PM on May 7 [6 favorites]

From the BBC: US reveals it paused shipment of bombs for Israel over Rafah concerns.

The pause was linked earlier but there are a few more details in this report.
posted by Justinian at 9:34 PM on May 7 [1 favorite]

interrogative mood, please collect your winnings: (Politico) US report on Israel’s wartime conduct in Gaza delayed, aides say
But the report won’t be finished by an initial Wednesday deadline, said the aides, granted anonymity to discuss internal communications. In an email, the Biden administration notified the Hill that it will miss the date — without providing a clear reason why.

The email said the report is “briefly delayed,” but doesn’t provide a specific timeline.

That’s more definitive than the message from State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller to reporters on Tuesday afternoon. He said that the report wasn’t yet finished, but added: “We are trying very hard to meet that deadline … It’s possible it slips just a little bit, but we are trying to get it done by tomorrow.” Miller noted that the deadline was a self-imposed one rather than a requirement.

A senior administration official, granted anonymity to discuss the internal process, said they expect it will “be delayed by less than a week.”

Asked why the report is taking longer, the National Security Council deferred to State. The State Department didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.
posted by cendawanita at 10:10 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]

Surely there's some tactic that State could deploy to take the public eye off that missing report?

Maybe their Middle Eastern ally and bastion of democracy could help out by finding some suitably spectacular and popcorn-worthy way to kill more children.
posted by flabdablet at 10:25 PM on May 7 [4 favorites]

You know, there's been so much horror that i don't think it even made it to this thread that Israel tortured Al Shifa's head of orthopedics, Adnan Al-Bursh, to death in prison last week. (CNN downplays & bothsideses the torture allegations but they're prominent in other reports; i'm just too sick to go digging right now.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:29 PM on May 7 [8 favorites]

Adam Johnson on Twitter, in re the delayed shipment:

This idea that “delaying” a shipment that isn’t due for a few weeks anyway as a symbiotic[sic] gesture or “shot across the bow” is nonsensical. We are seven months in. Either the WH uses leverage to impact behavior or it doesn’t. This silly ritual is largely for headlines
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:33 PM on May 7 [6 favorites]

New post started.
posted by human ecologist at 11:45 PM on May 7

(Politico) US report on Israel’s wartime conduct in Gaza delayed, aides say

That photo of Blinken depicts a man who has been put through the wringer, not merely spun dry. Spending all day every day trying to launder the bloodstains out of Israel's lies looks exhausting. I wonder why he does it.
posted by flabdablet at 1:11 AM on May 8 [5 favorites]

There are no winnings to be had in this catastrophe @cendawanita. Everything is always bukra, baad bukra inshallah.
posted by interogative mood at 10:00 AM on May 8 [1 favorite]

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