"I Spent Three Years Talking to Boys. Here’s What I Found"
June 5, 2024 6:01 AM Subscribe
"I Spent Three Years Talking to Boys. Here’s What I Found" This is not to say that people who aren't male aren't struggling. It just says, people who are male are, and in these specific ways.
"For many progressives, weary from a pileup of male misconduct, the refusal to engage with men’s feelings has now become almost a point of principle. For every right-wing tough guy urging his crying son to “man up,” there’s a voice from the left telling him that to voice his concerns is to take airtime away from a woman or someone more marginalized. In many cases, the same people who are urging boys and men to become more emotionally expressive are also taking a moral stand against hearing how they actually feel. For many boys, it can seem as though their emotions get dismissed by both sides. This political isolation has combined with existing masculine norms to push a worrying number of boys into a kind of resentful, semi-politicized reclusion."
"For many progressives, weary from a pileup of male misconduct, the refusal to engage with men’s feelings has now become almost a point of principle. For every right-wing tough guy urging his crying son to “man up,” there’s a voice from the left telling him that to voice his concerns is to take airtime away from a woman or someone more marginalized. In many cases, the same people who are urging boys and men to become more emotionally expressive are also taking a moral stand against hearing how they actually feel. For many boys, it can seem as though their emotions get dismissed by both sides. This political isolation has combined with existing masculine norms to push a worrying number of boys into a kind of resentful, semi-politicized reclusion."
It's so fucking weird to fault "progressives" (which I guess is this article's euphemism for scary ol 'feminists') for this. Progressive feminists are literally the only people who are talking about the problem, the only people who are doing something to correct it. Progressive feminists pioneered the field of masculine studies and deconstructing masculinity. The only time progressive feminists tell men to shut up is when they invoke the politics of male grievance to *shut women up*.
posted by MiraK at 6:11 AM on June 5 [154 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 6:11 AM on June 5 [154 favorites]
I'd suggest reading Caitlin Moran's What About Men? on this topic.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:14 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:14 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
That is such a vague and uninformative nothing of a piece, that provides so little information that all anyone can do is sort of handwave about whose fault something is. I think there is an underlying cultural problem leading boys to incelism, but this article sure as fuck isn't doing anything to help address it. Its poster boy example of someone who is unable to have an emotionally honest conversation is someone who has had hundreds of emotionally honest conversations.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:18 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 6:18 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
I think it’s complicated.
The problems created by toxic masculinity also have solutions within what I will call “toxic-adjacent” masculinity. But we are largely eliminating the toxic-adjacent masculinity as a way to eliminate toxic masculinity- eliminating the coping mechanisms rather than the actual problem.
My partner’s father is from the Midwest. He grew up as conservative as you can grow up, and rarely talks publicly about his emotions. But he participates in church, and goes on long men-only fishing and hunting trips, where in the eight hours of waiting, he *does* talk about emotions. It acts as a pressure valve - and lets him be a considerate husband, a caring father, and a man who wouldn’t even begin to consider himself lonely. Some other men used bars as a “third space” where they developed community.
We stigmatize male-only environments because in certain spaces, they have acted as creators and replicators of privilege and ostracism. But we are doing so before we have eliminated the toxic masculinity that necessitates them as a safety valve, and we haven’t replaced them with anything equivalent. We are destroying first with the hope we will eventually create second, rather than creating alternatives before we destroy.
I think it is a problem, a deep one. And it’s why so many of the incels are not, in fact, from conservative spaces, but progressive-adjacent spaces - places where the stigma has reached enough that they feel they can’t participate in those spaces, but not enough leftism to eliminate the toxic masculinity entirely.
posted by corb at 6:22 AM on June 5 [111 favorites]
The problems created by toxic masculinity also have solutions within what I will call “toxic-adjacent” masculinity. But we are largely eliminating the toxic-adjacent masculinity as a way to eliminate toxic masculinity- eliminating the coping mechanisms rather than the actual problem.
My partner’s father is from the Midwest. He grew up as conservative as you can grow up, and rarely talks publicly about his emotions. But he participates in church, and goes on long men-only fishing and hunting trips, where in the eight hours of waiting, he *does* talk about emotions. It acts as a pressure valve - and lets him be a considerate husband, a caring father, and a man who wouldn’t even begin to consider himself lonely. Some other men used bars as a “third space” where they developed community.
We stigmatize male-only environments because in certain spaces, they have acted as creators and replicators of privilege and ostracism. But we are doing so before we have eliminated the toxic masculinity that necessitates them as a safety valve, and we haven’t replaced them with anything equivalent. We are destroying first with the hope we will eventually create second, rather than creating alternatives before we destroy.
I think it is a problem, a deep one. And it’s why so many of the incels are not, in fact, from conservative spaces, but progressive-adjacent spaces - places where the stigma has reached enough that they feel they can’t participate in those spaces, but not enough leftism to eliminate the toxic masculinity entirely.
posted by corb at 6:22 AM on June 5 [111 favorites]
For every right-wing tough guy urging his crying son to “man up,” there’s a voice from the left telling him that to express his concerns is to take airtime away from a woman or someone more marginalized.
Really? There's an exact 1:1 ratio between the two? Does she provide the proof in the book that she's hawking via this editorial? Or is that just more both-sides-do-it-ism in America's most both-sides-do-it-ist paper? Because, as far as I can tell, the former is a literal industry (and a very profitable one at that) and the latter is probably a few randos on social media.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:26 AM on June 5 [47 favorites]
Really? There's an exact 1:1 ratio between the two? Does she provide the proof in the book that she's hawking via this editorial? Or is that just more both-sides-do-it-ism in America's most both-sides-do-it-ist paper? Because, as far as I can tell, the former is a literal industry (and a very profitable one at that) and the latter is probably a few randos on social media.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:26 AM on June 5 [47 favorites]
Previously: "Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:26 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:26 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
On preview: this is not to invalidate or resond to comments above about complexity. I was thumbtyping coincidentally that I find one weird track that snaps this into place for me.
Lefties have done both things, to shush and to encourage, but there is a method to the madness which may resonate with MiraKs comment. The volume tolerated from the dude is relative to the power or exclusivity held by dude, and a tacit agreement to a future listening to speaking ratio. In other words, to tell cis white dudes to step down from making speeches, or to ask dudes to pipe down about feelings when there is no listening happening - this is not at all confusing to me, cis het white dude.
posted by drowsy at 6:27 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Lefties have done both things, to shush and to encourage, but there is a method to the madness which may resonate with MiraKs comment. The volume tolerated from the dude is relative to the power or exclusivity held by dude, and a tacit agreement to a future listening to speaking ratio. In other words, to tell cis white dudes to step down from making speeches, or to ask dudes to pipe down about feelings when there is no listening happening - this is not at all confusing to me, cis het white dude.
posted by drowsy at 6:27 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
The assertion that progressive feminists “only” tell men to shut up when they are trying to shut up women is a huuuuge fave of radfems everywhere. It’s used both against trans women and trans men (who are both considered men when convenient only) and has been extensively used when cis women are shoving themselves fully into trans spaces to yell at us about our own discussions re: gender.
I have had women identifying as progressive feminists come into discussions about trans men being shut out of their queer communities once they start presenting more masculine and tell the people sharing their experiences that they are just trying to take away women’s spaces (when these spaces are ostensibly for all queer people) and to say otherwise is misogyny and talking over women. Same for trans women who experience the same if they are not ‘appropriately femme’.
Like yes progressive feminists are very much involved in the discussion and solution in a positive way. But there’s a huge swath of women who use that ideology both bioessentially and as a weapon against trans or otherwise marginalized individuals. I am sure they are also using it against cis men and not just when those men are “trying to shut up” women, but I can’t speak to that as
well.
posted by brook horse at 6:36 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
I have had women identifying as progressive feminists come into discussions about trans men being shut out of their queer communities once they start presenting more masculine and tell the people sharing their experiences that they are just trying to take away women’s spaces (when these spaces are ostensibly for all queer people) and to say otherwise is misogyny and talking over women. Same for trans women who experience the same if they are not ‘appropriately femme’.
Like yes progressive feminists are very much involved in the discussion and solution in a positive way. But there’s a huge swath of women who use that ideology both bioessentially and as a weapon against trans or otherwise marginalized individuals. I am sure they are also using it against cis men and not just when those men are “trying to shut up” women, but I can’t speak to that as
well.
posted by brook horse at 6:36 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
Positing the most toxic, harmful, damaging, misogynistic phrase in the English language is "boys will be boys." As an excuse for bullshit behaviour from AMAB children from birth until they leave the home as young adults. Twenty years of permission to be an asshole; twenty years of excuses for not raising thoughtful, kind, conscientious men.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:37 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:37 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
I'm hearing a lot about what feminists are doing to treat toxic masculinity. What are women doing... what are leftists doing... what are progressives doing...
What I never hear is what the fuck MEN are doing. What responsibility do men have for their own behavior? What responsibility to men have to teach boys better coping strategies? What can men do on a personal level to be better people?
Men are not, by nature, children incapable of emotional regulation. It's not everyone else's job to make them behave. They're making choices... like grown-ass adults... and we're not responsible for them. They know better, but so many are choosing not to be better because it's easier or more lucrative or grants them more privilege. I refuse to feel sympathy for people like that.
posted by Laura Palmer's Cold Dead Kiss at 6:40 AM on June 5 [89 favorites]
What I never hear is what the fuck MEN are doing. What responsibility do men have for their own behavior? What responsibility to men have to teach boys better coping strategies? What can men do on a personal level to be better people?
Men are not, by nature, children incapable of emotional regulation. It's not everyone else's job to make them behave. They're making choices... like grown-ass adults... and we're not responsible for them. They know better, but so many are choosing not to be better because it's easier or more lucrative or grants them more privilege. I refuse to feel sympathy for people like that.
posted by Laura Palmer's Cold Dead Kiss at 6:40 AM on June 5 [89 favorites]
Presumably, the men are doing leftist, feminist work? I'd consider myself both of those.
posted by sagc at 6:48 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:48 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
Thank you for sharing this, reality_is_benign.
posted by doctornemo at 6:51 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 6:51 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
And it’s why so many of the incels are not, in fact, from conservative spaces, but progressive-adjacent spaces - places where the stigma has reached enough that they feel they can’t participate in those spaces, but not enough leftism to eliminate the toxic masculinity entirely.
I'd like to kindly request citations. The two notable incel incidents that have led to deaths here in Ontario were not young men rejected by progressive spaces; they pre-emptively decided progressive spaces wouldn't have them or did not believe in them, and killed people as a result.
posted by Kitteh at 6:51 AM on June 5 [41 favorites]
I'd like to kindly request citations. The two notable incel incidents that have led to deaths here in Ontario were not young men rejected by progressive spaces; they pre-emptively decided progressive spaces wouldn't have them or did not believe in them, and killed people as a result.
posted by Kitteh at 6:51 AM on June 5 [41 favorites]
We stigmatize male-only environments because in certain spaces, they have acted as creators and replicators of privilege and ostracism. But we are doing so before we have eliminated the toxic masculinity that necessitates them as a safety valve, and we haven’t replaced them with anything equivalent.
But with what, though? Because the whole thing about the toxic-masculinity industrial complex is that, even though it's a lie, it's tremendously appealing to its recipients. It promises power, it promises privilege, or at least asserts that men should have all that. What do you replace that with?
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:51 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
But with what, though? Because the whole thing about the toxic-masculinity industrial complex is that, even though it's a lie, it's tremendously appealing to its recipients. It promises power, it promises privilege, or at least asserts that men should have all that. What do you replace that with?
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:51 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
The TFA's conclusion sounds good to me:
We need to acknowledge boys’ feelings, to talk with our sons in the same way we do our daughters, to hear them and empathize rather than dismiss or minimize, and engage with them as fully emotional beings.
They are more than ready to talk. We just need to make sure we are listening.
posted by doctornemo at 6:53 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
We need to acknowledge boys’ feelings, to talk with our sons in the same way we do our daughters, to hear them and empathize rather than dismiss or minimize, and engage with them as fully emotional beings.
They are more than ready to talk. We just need to make sure we are listening.
posted by doctornemo at 6:53 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
It promises power, it promises privilege, or at least asserts that men should have all that. What do you replace that with?
I mean what we propose is: happiness and full human connection
but apparently they are not interested in that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:57 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
I mean what we propose is: happiness and full human connection
but apparently they are not interested in that.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:57 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
What I never hear is what the fuck MEN are doing.
They’re going to therapy more. They’re building support groups. They’re reaching out to friends and family and seeking out information on their own.
And they’re still killing themselves at an astronomical rate. I work with these men (as well as women and others) every day. It is so easy to assign all of the worst traits of the group to those struggling the most, but I can tell you that these are more often progressive, kind, considerate men who hear how you talk about male feelings and decide they don’t want to be part of the problem. Sometimes permanently.
posted by brook horse at 7:09 AM on June 5 [122 favorites]
They’re going to therapy more. They’re building support groups. They’re reaching out to friends and family and seeking out information on their own.
And they’re still killing themselves at an astronomical rate. I work with these men (as well as women and others) every day. It is so easy to assign all of the worst traits of the group to those struggling the most, but I can tell you that these are more often progressive, kind, considerate men who hear how you talk about male feelings and decide they don’t want to be part of the problem. Sometimes permanently.
posted by brook horse at 7:09 AM on June 5 [122 favorites]
Like yes progressive feminists are very much involved in the discussion and solution in a positive way. But there’s a huge swath of women who use that ideology both bioessentially and as a weapon against trans or otherwise marginalized individuals.
To me the latter group sound like regressive feminists, to be fair. A bit No True Scotsman perhaps, but still.
posted by Dysk at 7:10 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
To me the latter group sound like regressive feminists, to be fair. A bit No True Scotsman perhaps, but still.
posted by Dysk at 7:10 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
It will always be on women, not men, to do the "work" of sorting their shit out. I do not wish to do this. I won't do it for my narcissistic father and I won't do it for men I don't know. Own your bad behaviour. Work on it. But it's gotta be you and not whatever women are in your orbit. I watch my younger sister do this with her husband and it drives me mad.
posted by Kitteh at 7:11 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 7:11 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
I mean, it is, but the article isn’t talking about “only people who pass the Standardized Progressive Test.”
posted by brook horse at 7:11 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 7:11 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
not gonna lie, the fact that men are lonely & struggle to find community played a small part in my decision to stop being a man. still working on the finding community bit, though.
imho i see it tied to the death of public & third spaces, the atomization of households, that sort of thing.
posted by pmv at 7:14 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
imho i see it tied to the death of public & third spaces, the atomization of households, that sort of thing.
posted by pmv at 7:14 AM on June 5 [28 favorites]
Yeesh, this thread is such a perfect example of what the article is talking about that it's almost self-parody.
There's a reason adolescent and young men are being drawn to the Andrew Tates and Joe Rogans of the world. Sure, part of that is misogyny and racism and privilege and the like. But there really is a deep, genuine need in boys and young men for help and guidance in a world where you're still raised to believe that emotions are weakness and to never show vulnerability in front of others.
And when they look around for help and guidance in good faith and are met on the one hand with...well, this, and on the other the Tates and Rogans who, however unpleasant or weird a young boy may find what they're saying, are at least offering a welcoming hand, it's not a surprise which way they gravitate.
This isn't a topic MetaFilter is going to be able to discuss well because part of the problem is an ideological inability to acknowledge the problem.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:15 AM on June 5 [145 favorites]
There's a reason adolescent and young men are being drawn to the Andrew Tates and Joe Rogans of the world. Sure, part of that is misogyny and racism and privilege and the like. But there really is a deep, genuine need in boys and young men for help and guidance in a world where you're still raised to believe that emotions are weakness and to never show vulnerability in front of others.
And when they look around for help and guidance in good faith and are met on the one hand with...well, this, and on the other the Tates and Rogans who, however unpleasant or weird a young boy may find what they're saying, are at least offering a welcoming hand, it's not a surprise which way they gravitate.
This isn't a topic MetaFilter is going to be able to discuss well because part of the problem is an ideological inability to acknowledge the problem.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:15 AM on June 5 [145 favorites]
I mean, I'm trying to quietly do the work on myself here without bothering anyone else except for the nice man I pay £50 a week to to work on things, because I'm a bit of a disaster zone. And my first reaction to the article was to see the excerpt and be like “hey, no fair, the right is the only problem”.
And that's broadly correct. But from what everyone else has written here, it sure doesn't look like it.
posted by ambrosen at 7:15 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
And that's broadly correct. But from what everyone else has written here, it sure doesn't look like it.
posted by ambrosen at 7:15 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Yeah, but I was narrowly responding to:
The assertion that progressive feminists “only” tell men to shut up when they are trying to shut up women is a huuuuge fave of radfems everywhere.
And like, I think that it is possible for the first part of that to be true, even as TERFs and other regressive elements try to bad-faith exploit that.
posted by Dysk at 7:16 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
The assertion that progressive feminists “only” tell men to shut up when they are trying to shut up women is a huuuuge fave of radfems everywhere.
And like, I think that it is possible for the first part of that to be true, even as TERFs and other regressive elements try to bad-faith exploit that.
posted by Dysk at 7:16 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
The two notable incel incidents that have led to deaths here in Ontario were not young men rejected by progressive spaces; they pre-emptively decided progressive spaces wouldn't have them or did not believe in them, and killed people as a result.
I think we’re saying the same thing; I may have worded things badly. I don’t think it’s mainly leftist men who are having these issues - it’s more the middle ground who are adjacent to progressive spaces but not actually a part of them. There’s a lot of community in mutual aid groups, or in activist movements; those guys aren’t having as many issues. It’s the ones who don’t have that who seem to be suffering. One way I’ve seen this manifest as well is by male sons of progressive parents who haven’t actively involved them in politics. It’s not about whether they actually *are* rejected from progressive spaces, it’s about them *feeling* like they would be.
Though I think there’s actually some reality as well, with the younger generation, that I don’t quite know how to solve. I was talking to one of my children recently, about why they didn’t want to spend time with an older somewhat progressive person - think center-left but trying. And they said because that person said the right things out loud, but were still committing micro aggressions, and they felt in their heart that person was not on board, so they wanted to protect themselves from that energy.
And I don’t think that child is wrong necessarily to want to protect themselves, but I also see dangers in excluding the people who are in the middle and trying, but not achieving well enough, because as a poster says above, the fash and the incels are welcoming those guys with open fucking arms.
I think one of the problems that the left faces is that we want a solution that works for everyone, and so we can sometimes be kind of defensive when that solution or mid range solution leaves people out. We don’t like admitting that we are leaving people out, so we argue that we’re not. But the evidence is all around us that these young men are lost, and putting our heads in the sand isn’t going to change that.
posted by corb at 7:19 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
I think we’re saying the same thing; I may have worded things badly. I don’t think it’s mainly leftist men who are having these issues - it’s more the middle ground who are adjacent to progressive spaces but not actually a part of them. There’s a lot of community in mutual aid groups, or in activist movements; those guys aren’t having as many issues. It’s the ones who don’t have that who seem to be suffering. One way I’ve seen this manifest as well is by male sons of progressive parents who haven’t actively involved them in politics. It’s not about whether they actually *are* rejected from progressive spaces, it’s about them *feeling* like they would be.
Though I think there’s actually some reality as well, with the younger generation, that I don’t quite know how to solve. I was talking to one of my children recently, about why they didn’t want to spend time with an older somewhat progressive person - think center-left but trying. And they said because that person said the right things out loud, but were still committing micro aggressions, and they felt in their heart that person was not on board, so they wanted to protect themselves from that energy.
And I don’t think that child is wrong necessarily to want to protect themselves, but I also see dangers in excluding the people who are in the middle and trying, but not achieving well enough, because as a poster says above, the fash and the incels are welcoming those guys with open fucking arms.
I think one of the problems that the left faces is that we want a solution that works for everyone, and so we can sometimes be kind of defensive when that solution or mid range solution leaves people out. We don’t like admitting that we are leaving people out, so we argue that we’re not. But the evidence is all around us that these young men are lost, and putting our heads in the sand isn’t going to change that.
posted by corb at 7:19 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
We don’t like admitting that we are leaving people out, so we argue that we’re not.
People are being left out, but I would argue that it isn't really fair to put that entirely on the communities in question. You say yourself that a lot of it is actually pre-emptive self-exclusion, which may or may not be based in anything warranted.
We may not be welcoming them on their terms, but we aren't excluding them either, even if we do 'miss' them.
posted by Dysk at 7:25 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
People are being left out, but I would argue that it isn't really fair to put that entirely on the communities in question. You say yourself that a lot of it is actually pre-emptive self-exclusion, which may or may not be based in anything warranted.
We may not be welcoming them on their terms, but we aren't excluding them either, even if we do 'miss' them.
posted by Dysk at 7:25 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
> We need to acknowledge boys’ feelings, to talk with our sons in the same way we do our daughters, to hear them and empathize rather than dismiss or minimize, and engage with them as fully emotional beings.
Again, it's worth noting that only progressive feminist parents are doing this. It's literally just us. Apolitical people aren't doing it. Radfems aren't doing it. Fucking conservatives sure as fuck aren't doing it. It's 100% only progressive feminist parents who are trying to raise boys this way.
> We just need to make sure we are listening.
so that's the issue, right, WHO exactly is "not listening", and TO WHAT are they "not listening"?
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about grief and loss over a loved one's death or a friendship that ended badly? (I have never heard of men being shut down over this - unless you consider it 'getting shut down' when they're encouraged to process these feelings with male friends, in support groups, and with therapists in addition to - rather than solely with - wives/girlfriends/mothers.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about their anger against someone who bullied them, or their anger about some structural injustice like workplace policies that kept them from taking paternity leave and from going home to spend time with their children? (Never heard of men getting shut down for this - unless you consider it 'getting shut down' when they're told they're not alone, and invited to join forces with everyone else who has been fighting these same battles for several decades.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about their feelings of helplessness and uselessness when they're unemployed and not able to find a job/earn a living? (No way - but conservatives DO shut them down in these cases.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about being constrained by patriarchy and the "man box"? (Nope - but conservatives do.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about how unfair and hurtful and irrational it is for women to choose the bear? (... YES. Now we're cooking. While men and boys can legitimately feel hurt by this, they're getting shut down from talking about their feelings because this conversation is about women's experience of male violence and so they need to get over their hurt feelings on their own and *listen*.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about how difficult it is to date women, and how women's standards are too high these days, and how hard life is when men can't get sex from women? (YES. Looked at through a particular lens, some men may have a valid reason for grievance: men as a whole have not been given the tools to cope without easily available sex objects, and so they're floundering in a time when women increasingly have agency in romantic and sexual relationships. However, there is simply no way for men to talk about this issue without sexually objectifying women. So we shut them down. And that is a tragedy for men from an "objective", contextless, ahistorical standpoint. But it's certainly not the fault of progressives and feminists that men talking about these particular feelings literally victimizes women, and therefore they can't be allowed to talk about them.)
It's worth noticing the particulars and specifics of who is shutting men down when they want to talk about their feelings, and under what conditions exactly. Without this specificity, there is no meaningful conversation to be had.
And BTW: I don't see this article talking about research done in groups for queer people where trans men have been shut down for talking about their feelings. None of these articles - by which I mean, articles that talk about how "boys these days are in trouble" etc - are giving us any research or insights or reported experiences from queer spaces or from trans men. There are very good books and articles that DO talk about trans and nb and queer men's experiences of being shut down by cis women in queer spaces, and that is absolutely worth discussing. That is an excellent example of cis/straight privilege in action. But critiquing cis/straight privilege is decidedly not what THIS article is about (and therefore not what my comment was about).
posted by MiraK at 7:34 AM on June 5 [76 favorites]
Again, it's worth noting that only progressive feminist parents are doing this. It's literally just us. Apolitical people aren't doing it. Radfems aren't doing it. Fucking conservatives sure as fuck aren't doing it. It's 100% only progressive feminist parents who are trying to raise boys this way.
> We just need to make sure we are listening.
so that's the issue, right, WHO exactly is "not listening", and TO WHAT are they "not listening"?
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about grief and loss over a loved one's death or a friendship that ended badly? (I have never heard of men being shut down over this - unless you consider it 'getting shut down' when they're encouraged to process these feelings with male friends, in support groups, and with therapists in addition to - rather than solely with - wives/girlfriends/mothers.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about their anger against someone who bullied them, or their anger about some structural injustice like workplace policies that kept them from taking paternity leave and from going home to spend time with their children? (Never heard of men getting shut down for this - unless you consider it 'getting shut down' when they're told they're not alone, and invited to join forces with everyone else who has been fighting these same battles for several decades.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about their feelings of helplessness and uselessness when they're unemployed and not able to find a job/earn a living? (No way - but conservatives DO shut them down in these cases.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about being constrained by patriarchy and the "man box"? (Nope - but conservatives do.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about how unfair and hurtful and irrational it is for women to choose the bear? (... YES. Now we're cooking. While men and boys can legitimately feel hurt by this, they're getting shut down from talking about their feelings because this conversation is about women's experience of male violence and so they need to get over their hurt feelings on their own and *listen*.)
Are men and boys getting shut down by progressives and/or feminists when they talk about how difficult it is to date women, and how women's standards are too high these days, and how hard life is when men can't get sex from women? (YES. Looked at through a particular lens, some men may have a valid reason for grievance: men as a whole have not been given the tools to cope without easily available sex objects, and so they're floundering in a time when women increasingly have agency in romantic and sexual relationships. However, there is simply no way for men to talk about this issue without sexually objectifying women. So we shut them down. And that is a tragedy for men from an "objective", contextless, ahistorical standpoint. But it's certainly not the fault of progressives and feminists that men talking about these particular feelings literally victimizes women, and therefore they can't be allowed to talk about them.)
It's worth noticing the particulars and specifics of who is shutting men down when they want to talk about their feelings, and under what conditions exactly. Without this specificity, there is no meaningful conversation to be had.
And BTW: I don't see this article talking about research done in groups for queer people where trans men have been shut down for talking about their feelings. None of these articles - by which I mean, articles that talk about how "boys these days are in trouble" etc - are giving us any research or insights or reported experiences from queer spaces or from trans men. There are very good books and articles that DO talk about trans and nb and queer men's experiences of being shut down by cis women in queer spaces, and that is absolutely worth discussing. That is an excellent example of cis/straight privilege in action. But critiquing cis/straight privilege is decidedly not what THIS article is about (and therefore not what my comment was about).
posted by MiraK at 7:34 AM on June 5 [76 favorites]
one of the earliest discussions i ever had with other activists about feminism, in the 80s, was that the patriarchy hurts men differently than it hurts women and others, but it does hurt them. this isn't a new idea in progressive spaces. a lot of men have internalised patriarchy so deeply, and woven it into their own self-perception so thoroughly, that even the most gentle imploring to unlearn patriarchy is interpreted by a lot of men to be an attack against masculinity in general and themselves in particular. and so grifters like tate or peterson prey upon these men in particular telling them no, there is nothing wrong with patriarchy; it is right and natural and all those people telling you otherwise want to emasculate you and disrupt the natural order of things. they know exactly what they're doing when they shill this toxicity, and they know who they're directing it at
there is a wealth of knowledge and emotional support out there for men who want to unlearn patriarchy, but it takes work and self-awareness to do so. it takes little effort to nod along with a social media influencer who says the only "work" one needs doing is to act on their worst instincts. we can absolutely devise new ways to reach out to men who have the desire to free themselves of the alienation that patriarchy creates for them, but it's important also to acknowledge that the resources are there, and that some people will simply opt to do less for themselves rather than more
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:36 AM on June 5 [63 favorites]
there is a wealth of knowledge and emotional support out there for men who want to unlearn patriarchy, but it takes work and self-awareness to do so. it takes little effort to nod along with a social media influencer who says the only "work" one needs doing is to act on their worst instincts. we can absolutely devise new ways to reach out to men who have the desire to free themselves of the alienation that patriarchy creates for them, but it's important also to acknowledge that the resources are there, and that some people will simply opt to do less for themselves rather than more
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:36 AM on June 5 [63 favorites]
Flagging Aya Hirano and MiraK's comments as fantastic. It is actual work to undo all the ingrained shit men have been taught. The key word is work. But if it is easier to nod along with the grifters than do the work, then most folks will choose the grifter.
If you are a dude who is doing the work, fuck yeah my friend. But if you encounter the slightest obstacle or pushback, sit with it instead of deciding women and/or progressives are the problem. It's not a big ask.
posted by Kitteh at 7:39 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
If you are a dude who is doing the work, fuck yeah my friend. But if you encounter the slightest obstacle or pushback, sit with it instead of deciding women and/or progressives are the problem. It's not a big ask.
posted by Kitteh at 7:39 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
I think you're right, star gentle uterus. What you describe comes up every time MeFi discusses problems afflicting men and boys.
posted by doctornemo at 7:41 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 7:41 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Anyway, I think this here looks like a conversation about men, not for men.
posted by ambrosen at 7:41 AM on June 5 [16 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 7:41 AM on June 5 [16 favorites]
Father of only daughters, have male friends who are fathers of sons. It is quite easy in the 2020s to raise daughters who aren't compelled to manifest toxic femininity: Daughter 1 has all kinds of traditionally girly interests (costume design, bread baking), but came upon them out of genuine interest; Daughter 2 is way more androgynous but also way straighter than D1. Neither one of them gives a shit about Tik Tok, makeup trends, or boys who are future toxic men.
My friends who have sons constantly complain about how it's next to impossible to raise their boys to be anything other than toxic: that despite their desires and efforts, their sons get caught up in massive peer pressure to conform to this very narrow and toxic concept of what it means to be a man. Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, all of that crap. One guy has had some success by pointing out the extent to which girls hate all that crap and won't date them if they exhibit it, but for the most part, it's this constant, fatiguing battle to try to convince their sons that the sons will be much happier if they stop caving to the peer pressure that anything outside of guns, cars, sports, violent video games, shitty misogynist porn, refusal to take school seriously, misogyny, and bad hygiene and domestic skills makes you Not A Man and therefore someone who can be victimized freely. The weird part is that it's totally okay to be gay, just so long as you're the super masculine kind of gay.
What's consistently demoralizing about it is how often the peer pressure comes from women and girls: the fathers' own mothers, wives, mothers-in-law and the sons' classmates and teachers.
But I can simultaneously think both that the majority of the peer pressure and toxic role models come from conservative people and discourses AND that progressive people and discourses are also Not Very Good at trying to change this dynamic and/or have sympathy for young (straight, white-adjacent) men who have come of age in a toxic environment and are now left without a lot of quality coping mechanisms for it.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:42 AM on June 5 [47 favorites]
My friends who have sons constantly complain about how it's next to impossible to raise their boys to be anything other than toxic: that despite their desires and efforts, their sons get caught up in massive peer pressure to conform to this very narrow and toxic concept of what it means to be a man. Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, all of that crap. One guy has had some success by pointing out the extent to which girls hate all that crap and won't date them if they exhibit it, but for the most part, it's this constant, fatiguing battle to try to convince their sons that the sons will be much happier if they stop caving to the peer pressure that anything outside of guns, cars, sports, violent video games, shitty misogynist porn, refusal to take school seriously, misogyny, and bad hygiene and domestic skills makes you Not A Man and therefore someone who can be victimized freely. The weird part is that it's totally okay to be gay, just so long as you're the super masculine kind of gay.
What's consistently demoralizing about it is how often the peer pressure comes from women and girls: the fathers' own mothers, wives, mothers-in-law and the sons' classmates and teachers.
But I can simultaneously think both that the majority of the peer pressure and toxic role models come from conservative people and discourses AND that progressive people and discourses are also Not Very Good at trying to change this dynamic and/or have sympathy for young (straight, white-adjacent) men who have come of age in a toxic environment and are now left without a lot of quality coping mechanisms for it.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:42 AM on June 5 [47 favorites]
This reminds me a little bit of a recent Slate piece about ostensible liberals doing sex-selection during IVF to try to ensure that their child would be a girl, for "feminist" reasons.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:43 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 7:43 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Started in evangelical fundie extreme conservativism, passed through a bunch of spaces that were well below “incel” but deeply misogynistic and incredibly toxic, ended at Metafilter, intersectional marxism and FALGSC.
My lived experience is that it is a far fucking cry from 1:1, but it is way, way more than a few social media randos. YMMV.
Iain Banks and the Culture novels sometimes get brushed off as “progressive training wheels for Star Trek dudes,” and that is both accurate and desperately needed. The reason they work is the combination of radically progressive politics in a no-longer zero-sum socio-economic calculus combined with the reassurance that when the current swinging pendulum of the zeitgeist settles down there will be a place for dudes like them. Not a position of superiority - Gurgeh represents them and lives his life catching some side-eye for not being trans or pan - but just held as peers, period. That is not the vibe in Leftist spaces where we are, on the whole, much more unwelcome than welcome no matter how consistent or lengthy the history of good faith. And deservedly so, but the history that makes it deserved doesn’t speak to the future arc.
It’s a lot like impact > intent in a way: impact being far more important than intent does not mean intent is fully worthless. It tells you what people will probably do in the future. Any dude (where dude = cis male, on most sides of privilege but not necessarily all) engaging with progressive spaces and progressive thought in good faith will almost immediately recognize that the current mistrust comes from centuries and even millenia of men like themselves treating everyone else like slaves and subhumans. From this: it follows that the impact they experience - the mistrust and constant, daily drumbeat of dozens of memes featuring them as irredeemable monsters across every aspect of life - is in no way unjustified behavior on everyone else’s part. But you fucking well need some measure of honest-to-god hope that eventually there will be a place, a belonging, some acceptance or what the fuck is the point?
And this is why so many men who are hellbent on doing the right thing disengage entirely: even if they are determined to do right, even if they are determined to not be part of the problem, the future in which they are not consistently the butt of all jokes within progressive spaces is over the horizon of their lifespan. You can’t go back to being a Tate-like monster if you’ve truly woken up, sticking around is just an endless litany of pain… so you walk away.
The male loneliness epidemic is entirely real and its scope is vastly undersold. The people most hurt by it are would-be allies who’ve disengaged because they feel that acceptance will not happen until centuries after they are dead. And they are probably correct.
If I saw a solution I’d be talking about it here. I will say “why aren’t men doing this work?” is not at all helpful: the relatively few who manage to overcome the massive societal conditioning to not talk about their feelings understand that the place to do that work is not in spaces where centering men’s perspectives would be immediately rejected and potentially hurtful to everyone else. And the only reason I am writing this, a centering of men’s perspectives, in this space is that this thread is specifically designated for it. Again: I do not see any answers beyond time, measured in centuries.
posted by Ryvar at 7:43 AM on June 5 [69 favorites]
My lived experience is that it is a far fucking cry from 1:1, but it is way, way more than a few social media randos. YMMV.
Iain Banks and the Culture novels sometimes get brushed off as “progressive training wheels for Star Trek dudes,” and that is both accurate and desperately needed. The reason they work is the combination of radically progressive politics in a no-longer zero-sum socio-economic calculus combined with the reassurance that when the current swinging pendulum of the zeitgeist settles down there will be a place for dudes like them. Not a position of superiority - Gurgeh represents them and lives his life catching some side-eye for not being trans or pan - but just held as peers, period. That is not the vibe in Leftist spaces where we are, on the whole, much more unwelcome than welcome no matter how consistent or lengthy the history of good faith. And deservedly so, but the history that makes it deserved doesn’t speak to the future arc.
It’s a lot like impact > intent in a way: impact being far more important than intent does not mean intent is fully worthless. It tells you what people will probably do in the future. Any dude (where dude = cis male, on most sides of privilege but not necessarily all) engaging with progressive spaces and progressive thought in good faith will almost immediately recognize that the current mistrust comes from centuries and even millenia of men like themselves treating everyone else like slaves and subhumans. From this: it follows that the impact they experience - the mistrust and constant, daily drumbeat of dozens of memes featuring them as irredeemable monsters across every aspect of life - is in no way unjustified behavior on everyone else’s part. But you fucking well need some measure of honest-to-god hope that eventually there will be a place, a belonging, some acceptance or what the fuck is the point?
And this is why so many men who are hellbent on doing the right thing disengage entirely: even if they are determined to do right, even if they are determined to not be part of the problem, the future in which they are not consistently the butt of all jokes within progressive spaces is over the horizon of their lifespan. You can’t go back to being a Tate-like monster if you’ve truly woken up, sticking around is just an endless litany of pain… so you walk away.
The male loneliness epidemic is entirely real and its scope is vastly undersold. The people most hurt by it are would-be allies who’ve disengaged because they feel that acceptance will not happen until centuries after they are dead. And they are probably correct.
If I saw a solution I’d be talking about it here. I will say “why aren’t men doing this work?” is not at all helpful: the relatively few who manage to overcome the massive societal conditioning to not talk about their feelings understand that the place to do that work is not in spaces where centering men’s perspectives would be immediately rejected and potentially hurtful to everyone else. And the only reason I am writing this, a centering of men’s perspectives, in this space is that this thread is specifically designated for it. Again: I do not see any answers beyond time, measured in centuries.
posted by Ryvar at 7:43 AM on June 5 [69 favorites]
okay so i’m hella covidey over here and drugged into quasi-oblivion so the tangents i introduce might not quite touch the circle at the number of points a tangent is supposed to, but the word “boys” in the headline here got me thinking about the charli xcx song of that title and particularly the video for it and maybe there’s something in there, right, maybe a way out of the trap of equating masculinity with toxic masculinity and then being real mean to yes all men / saddling the lovable but sadly unloved boys with the sins of their gender compatriots is to build space for adorable masculinity.
I don’t know if this makes any sense outside of the nonconsensual hallucinations in my head that have been produced by what turns out to be a remarkably nasty respiratory illness indeed, like, wow we were not wrong to make such a big deal about this one, but maybe, just maybe, a way to support and love the masculine folks in yr life without letting in toxic masculinity is instead to focus on adorable masculinity. or even delicious masculinity!
the age of toxic masculinity is over! the age of tasty masculinity has begun!
okay maybe it’s not the best idea but even so maybe it’s kenough?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:43 AM on June 5 [29 favorites]
I don’t know if this makes any sense outside of the nonconsensual hallucinations in my head that have been produced by what turns out to be a remarkably nasty respiratory illness indeed, like, wow we were not wrong to make such a big deal about this one, but maybe, just maybe, a way to support and love the masculine folks in yr life without letting in toxic masculinity is instead to focus on adorable masculinity. or even delicious masculinity!
the age of toxic masculinity is over! the age of tasty masculinity has begun!
okay maybe it’s not the best idea but even so maybe it’s kenough?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:43 AM on June 5 [29 favorites]
My friends who have sons constantly complain about how it's next to impossible to raise their boys to be anything other than toxic: that despite their desires and efforts, their sons get caught up in massive peer pressure to conform to this very narrow and toxic concept of what it means to be a man.
Has this just gotten much, much worse than when I was growing up in the 2000s? Because I somehow missed all of that, and so did my friends. We were nerds and a lot of us turned out to be queer, to be fair, but we weren't even bullied particularly! None of us talked about "being a man" or whatever, not that masculinity standards didn't exist, but they were not stuff we talked about.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:54 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Has this just gotten much, much worse than when I was growing up in the 2000s? Because I somehow missed all of that, and so did my friends. We were nerds and a lot of us turned out to be queer, to be fair, but we weren't even bullied particularly! None of us talked about "being a man" or whatever, not that masculinity standards didn't exist, but they were not stuff we talked about.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:54 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Bring back Rites of Passage for young men. Something to at least psychologically separate young men from adults and make the transition into the next phase or life so they don't end up stuck as overgrown teenagers.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:56 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:56 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
This reminds me of a local story I spotted on Reddit yesterday. A far-right activist who branded himself "Patriot, Lion, Ultra-MAGA, Pureblood, Advocate for Educational Freedom & more toxic masculinity" died by suicide. His achievements in the public sphere included disrupting many a school board meeting, talking about "hardcore anal sex" in children's books, and hiring a far-right speaker who turned out to be a convicted pedophile. (The Reddit post was taken down, so this is all from memory.)
Clearly, this man was no loss to this world. He was suffering when he died. So were we, of course -- that is, the public at large -- because toxic masculinity dictates that if you're in pain, you inflict as much of that pain on other people as possible. And when that's not possible anymore, you end your life.
The time to make him not be that kind of person was thirty-five years ago. The second best time is now. It's too late for him, but not for most boys and young men. They need to understand what's at the end of that road.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:56 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
Clearly, this man was no loss to this world. He was suffering when he died. So were we, of course -- that is, the public at large -- because toxic masculinity dictates that if you're in pain, you inflict as much of that pain on other people as possible. And when that's not possible anymore, you end your life.
The time to make him not be that kind of person was thirty-five years ago. The second best time is now. It's too late for him, but not for most boys and young men. They need to understand what's at the end of that road.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:56 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
Trans men face men’s issues and deciding that an article about men’s issues is “not about them” is one way to approach it. But I’m not digging any further into that.
Anyway, as I said I work with suicidal men every day and I have in fact heard of or witnessed live every one of MiraK’s examples, including from proclaimed progressive feminists. I have also seen my progressive peers do it to their husbands. Many progressive women have not unlearned nearly as much about gender roles as they would like; men are still expected to be the “rock” for women and emotional vulnerability threatens that.
You are welcome to argue it is not their job to fix men’s issues or their job to police their reactions to genuine male vulnerability, but the argument that this is “not happening” in progressive circles is just wishful thinking or No True Scotsmanning your way out of a reality that I am witness to every day as a mental health professional.
posted by brook horse at 7:58 AM on June 5 [97 favorites]
Anyway, as I said I work with suicidal men every day and I have in fact heard of or witnessed live every one of MiraK’s examples, including from proclaimed progressive feminists. I have also seen my progressive peers do it to their husbands. Many progressive women have not unlearned nearly as much about gender roles as they would like; men are still expected to be the “rock” for women and emotional vulnerability threatens that.
You are welcome to argue it is not their job to fix men’s issues or their job to police their reactions to genuine male vulnerability, but the argument that this is “not happening” in progressive circles is just wishful thinking or No True Scotsmanning your way out of a reality that I am witness to every day as a mental health professional.
posted by brook horse at 7:58 AM on June 5 [97 favorites]
I think that, if you were growing up in the 2000s, you probably weren't existing in the same media environment as kids today. If I had had instagram, tiktok, and twitch as constituted today when I was in junior high (~2005-2008), I can absolutely imagine being exposed to a lot more heinous shit, faster, and with more peer pressure.
I'd argue that visual culture exploded over the time since then, and it's been getting more and more youth-oriented.
posted by sagc at 7:58 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
I'd argue that visual culture exploded over the time since then, and it's been getting more and more youth-oriented.
posted by sagc at 7:58 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
This was a good article, and unfortunately this thread had gone pretty much the way these threads always do. Some of you could learn a lot if you'd turn down the defensiveness and listen.
I really appreciate brook horse's contributions here.
posted by biogeo at 8:02 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
I really appreciate brook horse's contributions here.
posted by biogeo at 8:02 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
It's not that complicated really. Everything happens in extremes these days. Almost every movement today has its reaction.
The "extreme male" craze is just a reaction to the Feminism movement, and since everything is exploited and monetized some cretins have figured out ways to profit from the "toxic male" trope, just like people profit from every other idiotic lifestyle or trend that comes along. It's a typical consequence of a self centered and overly Capitalist society.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:04 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
The "extreme male" craze is just a reaction to the Feminism movement, and since everything is exploited and monetized some cretins have figured out ways to profit from the "toxic male" trope, just like people profit from every other idiotic lifestyle or trend that comes along. It's a typical consequence of a self centered and overly Capitalist society.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:04 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
So much of this thread is about what men can and should do, and not about what boys—children, even into teenagerhood—are being exposed to, largely online and from friends who are getting it online.
We have great sympathy for girls who are caught up in, say, pro-ana content, and we don't generally blame their mothers for it with such vitriol. I propose that we also have sympathy for boys who are caught up in, say, the Andrew Tate-iverse, and don't blame their fathers in a vitriolic way.
Yes, of course, the Tate-iverse makes adherents actively awful to other people in obvious ways than starving oneself does; anorexia is a mental illness and being a misogynist is not; etc. I'm not saying they're totally equivalent. But being exposed to toxic shit online, especially in the context of social media, is a doozy, and we are asking young boys to overcome a LOT here if we just say "they're men and they're responsible for themselves."
posted by branca at 8:06 AM on June 5 [29 favorites]
We have great sympathy for girls who are caught up in, say, pro-ana content, and we don't generally blame their mothers for it with such vitriol. I propose that we also have sympathy for boys who are caught up in, say, the Andrew Tate-iverse, and don't blame their fathers in a vitriolic way.
Yes, of course, the Tate-iverse makes adherents actively awful to other people in obvious ways than starving oneself does; anorexia is a mental illness and being a misogynist is not; etc. I'm not saying they're totally equivalent. But being exposed to toxic shit online, especially in the context of social media, is a doozy, and we are asking young boys to overcome a LOT here if we just say "they're men and they're responsible for themselves."
posted by branca at 8:06 AM on June 5 [29 favorites]
Has this just gotten much, much worse than when I was growing up in the 2000s?
My very unscientific sample would say "oh gods, yes it has".
Cloned or alternate-universe me with infinite free time would love to set myself up as a YouTube/internet Masculinity Guru that would provide teen boys and young men positive, non-exploitive, progressive models of masculinity, but actual this-universe me has zero free time.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:06 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
My very unscientific sample would say "oh gods, yes it has".
Cloned or alternate-universe me with infinite free time would love to set myself up as a YouTube/internet Masculinity Guru that would provide teen boys and young men positive, non-exploitive, progressive models of masculinity, but actual this-universe me has zero free time.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:06 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Probably could do with a bunch of PSAs on the theme of "not cool, dude" and "you can do better; you can be better" with traditionally masculine men pushing back on the shitty male behaviour of their peers. Toxic men will really only listen to behavioural feedback from men of the same or higher status level.
Of course, if you look like a traditionally masculine man and you see shitty behaviour around you, you should absolutely push back in real life, but modelling this behaviour in ads and psas is about the only way to combat the incredible amounts of garbage force-fed to men (and boys) by traditional and social media.
Teaching men how to teach men is one of the clearest paths forward.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:07 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
Of course, if you look like a traditionally masculine man and you see shitty behaviour around you, you should absolutely push back in real life, but modelling this behaviour in ads and psas is about the only way to combat the incredible amounts of garbage force-fed to men (and boys) by traditional and social media.
Teaching men how to teach men is one of the clearest paths forward.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:07 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
I think the societal pressures are worse than they were for me. I remember my earlyish childhood being a time of more and more gender neutral toys and clothing for younger kids especially, for example. Sometime over the last 25 years or so, toy shops have gone back to one half aggressively pink, the other half aggressively blue and camo print. Gender reveal parties became a thing.
Maybe it's more the late 80s and 90s, but there was definitely a time when, at least where I lived, where there was something of a focus on not indoctrinating literal children into a regressive gender binary before they could even talk, in a way that is very far from the cultural zeitgeist of the moment.
Maybe it was already starting to turn by the time I was a teenager in the 2000s, but I was also done with being a young child by then, and had already had many formative experiences.
posted by Dysk at 8:08 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
Maybe it's more the late 80s and 90s, but there was definitely a time when, at least where I lived, where there was something of a focus on not indoctrinating literal children into a regressive gender binary before they could even talk, in a way that is very far from the cultural zeitgeist of the moment.
Maybe it was already starting to turn by the time I was a teenager in the 2000s, but I was also done with being a young child by then, and had already had many formative experiences.
posted by Dysk at 8:08 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
brook horse, it was not my intent to say that literally not a single instance of [those things I listed] has ever happened anywhere. I was talking about the culture at large. There is no culture at large in progressive feminist circles that it's unacceptable for men to talk about grief about the death of loved ones, or anger over having been bullied at school, etc. But there is a culture at large in progressive feminist circles, an accepted orthodoxy, that it's unacceptable for men to talk about how it's unfair that women choose the bear. This isn't a "no true scotsman", I'm not arguing that these people aren't True Progressive Feminists because they do that. I'm saying, progressive feminism didn't teach them to do that - patriarchy did. Progressive feminism does not encourage that. Indeed, progressive feminism wants us to cultivate the opposite behaviors, and cultivating these new behaviors is an uphill task in our world. None of us are perfect feminists or perfect progressives. You can't just opt out of patriarchy - if we could, then patriarchy wouldn't be oppressive.
From your comments it seems like you're suggesting that as long as there are some people who call themselves progressive feminists who shut down men's expressions of grief or whatever, that means it's fair to blame progressive feminists for shutting down men's feelings. This is ... reaching. Also holding progressive feminists to a wild standard of universal perfection. I'm really not sure what your point even is, if what you're arguing is "That one progressive feminist did a bad thing one time in my presence."
posted by MiraK at 8:08 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
From your comments it seems like you're suggesting that as long as there are some people who call themselves progressive feminists who shut down men's expressions of grief or whatever, that means it's fair to blame progressive feminists for shutting down men's feelings. This is ... reaching. Also holding progressive feminists to a wild standard of universal perfection. I'm really not sure what your point even is, if what you're arguing is "That one progressive feminist did a bad thing one time in my presence."
posted by MiraK at 8:08 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
Pick-up artists, "nice guy" self-hate (which morphed into the incel movement), and Men's Rights Movement were definitely around in the early 2000s. 4Chan launched, with its toxicity, at this time. You're lucky you didn't run into it, but it was definitely there. It has become far more mainstream today and integrated into the larger conservative movement, though, so although it is a bit worse now, finding those pockets of the internet wasn't fringe stuff, it was around.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:08 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:08 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
I don't have the full emotional energy to engage with this thread right now, but I want to say the following:
This thread is making me sad. star gentle uterus speaks for me here, as does brook horse. Pretending that progressive feminist (or, if you prefer, "progressive feminist" with scare quotes because there are no true scotsmen) circles are not often part of the problem is just not my own lived experience. I've actually experienced far more derision and invalidation of my manhood and value as a man from ostensibly feminist progressive women than I have from men, at least beyond my teen years. I truly despair for this generation of boys and young men and if this thread represents the people who are supposed to be my fucking allies in building a better masculinity for the men and boys who come after, well, I'm pretty well fucked and I may as well give up right now.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:09 AM on June 5 [62 favorites]
This thread is making me sad. star gentle uterus speaks for me here, as does brook horse. Pretending that progressive feminist (or, if you prefer, "progressive feminist" with scare quotes because there are no true scotsmen) circles are not often part of the problem is just not my own lived experience. I've actually experienced far more derision and invalidation of my manhood and value as a man from ostensibly feminist progressive women than I have from men, at least beyond my teen years. I truly despair for this generation of boys and young men and if this thread represents the people who are supposed to be my fucking allies in building a better masculinity for the men and boys who come after, well, I'm pretty well fucked and I may as well give up right now.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:09 AM on June 5 [62 favorites]
Trans men face men’s issues and deciding that an article about men’s issues is “not about them” is one way to approach it.
I appreciate this as a trans man who is posting despite extreme trepidation about engaging in this thread. I have definitely had to deal with a lot of internalized toxic masculinity, made worse by the fact that when I was presenting as a woman I think I got away with at minimum not being called out on some really really shitty behavior. I'm far from perfect but I have also done a TON of work to divest myself of that, including joining a group of cis men actively working to combat their own toxic masculinity who were doing real, hard work on themselves. There are men working on this including trans men at least some of whom can and should be included when talking about truly horrible outlooks and behavior from men. I don't know that I find this to be a space in which I want to participate more or be any more vulnerable than I have been in this comment but I do think it's incredibly important to include trans men when we talk about men.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:16 AM on June 5 [52 favorites]
I appreciate this as a trans man who is posting despite extreme trepidation about engaging in this thread. I have definitely had to deal with a lot of internalized toxic masculinity, made worse by the fact that when I was presenting as a woman I think I got away with at minimum not being called out on some really really shitty behavior. I'm far from perfect but I have also done a TON of work to divest myself of that, including joining a group of cis men actively working to combat their own toxic masculinity who were doing real, hard work on themselves. There are men working on this including trans men at least some of whom can and should be included when talking about truly horrible outlooks and behavior from men. I don't know that I find this to be a space in which I want to participate more or be any more vulnerable than I have been in this comment but I do think it's incredibly important to include trans men when we talk about men.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:16 AM on June 5 [52 favorites]
> I've actually experienced far more derision and invalidation of my manhood and value as a man from ostensibly feminist progressive women than I have from men
I wish you'd give us some examples. Something concrete, some instance, some specific experience, that led you to make this statement. If you're too emotionally exhausted to engage with the thread, that's fine, but then don't hang around making blatantly misogynistic general statements like this one! Either be in the conversation properly or don't.
You may not have meant this to be misogynistic, you may have meant it in some completely different way, and you may have some specifics in mind that somehow add up to this statement - but standing on its own, without context and without specifics, this statement is hella misogynistic and indistinguishable from incel rhetoric. Your emotional exhaustion doesn't excuse it.
posted by MiraK at 8:17 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
I wish you'd give us some examples. Something concrete, some instance, some specific experience, that led you to make this statement. If you're too emotionally exhausted to engage with the thread, that's fine, but then don't hang around making blatantly misogynistic general statements like this one! Either be in the conversation properly or don't.
You may not have meant this to be misogynistic, you may have meant it in some completely different way, and you may have some specifics in mind that somehow add up to this statement - but standing on its own, without context and without specifics, this statement is hella misogynistic and indistinguishable from incel rhetoric. Your emotional exhaustion doesn't excuse it.
posted by MiraK at 8:17 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
AzraelBrown, I think there's a different between "fringe pockets of the internet" and "algorithmically served up in the same feed as my friend's dance videos".
Also, just want to voice my support for brook horse's comments in this thread, which are absolutely insightful, and not trying to imply some impossible perfect standards for progressive feminists to strive for. They just seem to be saying that maybe some listening to the sometimes-suicidal men in question might be important.
posted by sagc at 8:17 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
Also, just want to voice my support for brook horse's comments in this thread, which are absolutely insightful, and not trying to imply some impossible perfect standards for progressive feminists to strive for. They just seem to be saying that maybe some listening to the sometimes-suicidal men in question might be important.
posted by sagc at 8:17 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
this statement is hella misogynistic and indistinguishable from incel rhetoric.
I thought we weren't supposed to preëmptively invalidate people's statements about their lived experiences.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:18 AM on June 5 [73 favorites]
I thought we weren't supposed to preëmptively invalidate people's statements about their lived experiences.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:18 AM on June 5 [73 favorites]
anyway some bits from that Slate piece I linked by way of evidence that some liberal types are very weird about sex
Grace, a 31-year-old who works in human resources (I’m referring to her by her middle name), told me, “When I think about having a child that’s a boy, it’s almost a repulsion, like, Oh my God, no.”...
What’s so bad about boys? “Toxic masculinity,” said many women I spoke to, even those who were, sadly, already boy moms. For many, going through all the trouble to ensure a girl feels like a social good. Amy’s partner, Guthrie, believes that because oldest children tend to be more successful, if everyone did sex selection we could squash inequality by manipulating birth order... Among the moms I spoke to who already have boys, many want to give their sons sisters to make them into better men. They believe that girls can do anything—a conviction that often comes with the subtext that boys are incapable of doing their own laundry, calling their moms, expressing empathy, or even really being part of the family as they get older. “I don’t know a guy who has a strong relationship with his mother or his father,” Grace told me...
To many, the prospect of raising a girl just feels as if it will be easier. She’s far less likely to commit a mass shooting or to idolize Andrew Tate. She’s also, points out Moayeri, less likely to be diagnosed with autism [CITATION NEEDED]...
Many American ethicists argue that sex selection can’t be discriminatory if some parents—even most—opt for daughters...
The women I spoke to are open to many different gender expressions—Lexi, Amy, and Grace would all be thrilled to raise a queer, athletic engineer—but at the end of the day, they expect their daughters to be compassionate, to relate well with their moms, and, once they fly the nest, to FaceTime their parents. They don’t expect the same things from sons.
“Boy children tend to be less caring towards their parents,” Lexi explained.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:19 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
It makes me wonder what progressive pressures are causing every home or private gym on social media to have US, Gadsen and thin blue line flags in the background.
posted by brachiopod at 8:19 AM on June 5 [15 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 8:19 AM on June 5 [15 favorites]
What lived experiences, though??
I fully get that there may have been good reasons for Tommorrowful to say that, but they didn't mention any reasons, they didn't provide context. Without context it is indistinguishable from an incel statement.
posted by MiraK at 8:20 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
I fully get that there may have been good reasons for Tommorrowful to say that, but they didn't mention any reasons, they didn't provide context. Without context it is indistinguishable from an incel statement.
posted by MiraK at 8:20 AM on June 5 [4 favorites]
IDK, I thought it was a bad article - it's far too full of generalizations to be actually helpful. "Over a quarter of men under 30 say they have no close friends. " so around 75% do have close friends? That seems pretty decent.
"Teenage boys now spend two hours less a week socializing than girls and they also spend about seven hours more per week than their female peers on screens."
"Overall, teens (ages 15 to 17) spend an hour a day, on average, doing homework during the school year, up from 44 minutes a day about a decade ago and 30 minutes in the mid-1990s."
So an extra 15 minutes a day of homework * 5 school days = we just accounted for all but 45 minutes of socializing differential. Also comparing screen time generically is not helpful - screens can be 'socializing' now.
Also I have daughters younger than the group - a lot of the 'emotional' and 'socializing' time they spend is actively harmful, as actively harmful as their harmful screen time. I don't think it would necessarily be a net positive for boys to get more of that. Maybe you can say that they are learning emotional things -but an adult most assuredly has to guide them through that, same as with some kind of toxic masculinity thing for young boys.
I actually agree about the loss of 3rd spaces, and the loss of kids just hanging out (and therefore being shunted into 'guided and often gendered' activities, like sports, to keep them from being miscreants. My kids boys and girls jr high school teams don't even play together at the same schools, I find that kind of extreme. I think in the name of safety, so of this has gone too far. Guided activities also basically 'sorts' kids, making it far easier to only hang out with peers far more like them physically, which decreases personal variety..
But how do we get that back? That's the hard part. I don't think it has anything to do with just *talking about it* personally.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:22 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
"Teenage boys now spend two hours less a week socializing than girls and they also spend about seven hours more per week than their female peers on screens."
"Overall, teens (ages 15 to 17) spend an hour a day, on average, doing homework during the school year, up from 44 minutes a day about a decade ago and 30 minutes in the mid-1990s."
So an extra 15 minutes a day of homework * 5 school days = we just accounted for all but 45 minutes of socializing differential. Also comparing screen time generically is not helpful - screens can be 'socializing' now.
Also I have daughters younger than the group - a lot of the 'emotional' and 'socializing' time they spend is actively harmful, as actively harmful as their harmful screen time. I don't think it would necessarily be a net positive for boys to get more of that. Maybe you can say that they are learning emotional things -but an adult most assuredly has to guide them through that, same as with some kind of toxic masculinity thing for young boys.
I actually agree about the loss of 3rd spaces, and the loss of kids just hanging out (and therefore being shunted into 'guided and often gendered' activities, like sports, to keep them from being miscreants. My kids boys and girls jr high school teams don't even play together at the same schools, I find that kind of extreme. I think in the name of safety, so of this has gone too far. Guided activities also basically 'sorts' kids, making it far easier to only hang out with peers far more like them physically, which decreases personal variety..
But how do we get that back? That's the hard part. I don't think it has anything to do with just *talking about it* personally.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:22 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
I'm saying, progressive feminism didn't teach them to do that. They're in contravention of progressive feminist principles when they do these things you've seen them do.
Your progressive feminist principles are not everyone’s progressive principles. I have been in many progressive spaces where the behavior I’ve described is not in contrast to the principles of the group. Again, many progressives have not actually unlearned gender roles particularly in day to day behavior. If you have developed principles that are contrary to this, then you’re fine and it’s not about you. But many progressives do in fact believe that men should not burden women with their feelings regardless of the context or content due to the power and privilege they hold. This is the progressive culture in many spaces, particularly ones that do not tackle theory too deeply.
if what you're arguing is "That one progressive feminist did a bad thing one time in my presence."
I’m arguing what the article is arguing: that “many progressive … silence or demonize boys in the name of progressive ideals.” It happens, even if it’s in contradiction to your principles—or often even their own. People don’t always act in accordance with their principles. Many progressive women expect their partners to conform to gender roles despite this being agains their values. We recognize that this can also happen with progressive men—there is much discussion about how progressive men will uphold gender roles in their relationships. Women do this as well. Progressives of all genders do this, and frequently. I know more progressives like this than those who actively work to dismantle all gender roles in their relationships (both romantic and platonic). This is not the fault of progressivism itself, and the article never said that it was. But it is something that progressive people are doing that needs to change.
posted by brook horse at 8:25 AM on June 5 [42 favorites]
Your progressive feminist principles are not everyone’s progressive principles. I have been in many progressive spaces where the behavior I’ve described is not in contrast to the principles of the group. Again, many progressives have not actually unlearned gender roles particularly in day to day behavior. If you have developed principles that are contrary to this, then you’re fine and it’s not about you. But many progressives do in fact believe that men should not burden women with their feelings regardless of the context or content due to the power and privilege they hold. This is the progressive culture in many spaces, particularly ones that do not tackle theory too deeply.
if what you're arguing is "That one progressive feminist did a bad thing one time in my presence."
I’m arguing what the article is arguing: that “many progressive … silence or demonize boys in the name of progressive ideals.” It happens, even if it’s in contradiction to your principles—or often even their own. People don’t always act in accordance with their principles. Many progressive women expect their partners to conform to gender roles despite this being agains their values. We recognize that this can also happen with progressive men—there is much discussion about how progressive men will uphold gender roles in their relationships. Women do this as well. Progressives of all genders do this, and frequently. I know more progressives like this than those who actively work to dismantle all gender roles in their relationships (both romantic and platonic). This is not the fault of progressivism itself, and the article never said that it was. But it is something that progressive people are doing that needs to change.
posted by brook horse at 8:25 AM on June 5 [42 favorites]
You know, I just took a tour back through this thread, and none of us are talking about many detailed specifics. Maybe that's not ideal. It's probably not. But I am sure as fuck not feeling terribly obligated to "go first" like my own broad declarative statements are less valid than anybody else's broad declarative statements in a thread that consists almost entirely of broad declarative statements.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:25 AM on June 5 [64 favorites]
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:25 AM on June 5 [64 favorites]
There is a young man in my local subreddit who asked where to get his nails done as he bites them, and the women are going, "Oh, don't worry about it! Salons have male customers too. Just call! Good luck!" and the men are, uh, not responding well to a man wanting to have nice nails. Let this gentleman get his nails done in peace!
The simple act of nail care shouldn't be something toxic men need to put their two cents in on.
posted by Kitteh at 8:27 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
The simple act of nail care shouldn't be something toxic men need to put their two cents in on.
posted by Kitteh at 8:27 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
> I’m arguing what the article is arguing: that “many progressive … silence or demonize boys in the name of progressive ideals.”
So, what progressive ideals were invoked in shutting men down in the ways I described in my comment, brook horse? This is what I was getting at exactly, thank you for focusing the conversation on it. You clearly have more experience of working directly with men, and you know how this is manifesting IRL, and my curiosity is genuine. I'd like to know in the name of exactly what progressive ideal are feminists shutting down men when they discuss grief about losing loved ones, or anger about bullies.
I'm sorry for phrasing my earlier comment in a way that excludes trans men from men's issues, btw. Your point is well taken.
> the women are going, "Oh, don't worry about it! Salons have male customers too. Just call! Good luck!" and the men are, uh, not responding well to a man wanting to have nice nails.
Yep, this has been my personal lived experience too. Almost all of the policing of young men comes from other young men (and older men), not from women or progressive feminists. I'd really like to hear from articles like these or from comments by men some specific examples if they're having the opposite experience.
posted by MiraK at 8:28 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
So, what progressive ideals were invoked in shutting men down in the ways I described in my comment, brook horse? This is what I was getting at exactly, thank you for focusing the conversation on it. You clearly have more experience of working directly with men, and you know how this is manifesting IRL, and my curiosity is genuine. I'd like to know in the name of exactly what progressive ideal are feminists shutting down men when they discuss grief about losing loved ones, or anger about bullies.
I'm sorry for phrasing my earlier comment in a way that excludes trans men from men's issues, btw. Your point is well taken.
> the women are going, "Oh, don't worry about it! Salons have male customers too. Just call! Good luck!" and the men are, uh, not responding well to a man wanting to have nice nails.
Yep, this has been my personal lived experience too. Almost all of the policing of young men comes from other young men (and older men), not from women or progressive feminists. I'd really like to hear from articles like these or from comments by men some specific examples if they're having the opposite experience.
posted by MiraK at 8:28 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
you know as a trans woman i am a little miffed seeing this much ink on this subject from the new york times of all publications. we have whole generations of trans kids that way too many states are trying to legislate out of existence, a suicide epidemic amongst trans people, and our murder numbers, especially the most marginalised amongst us, are horrifying. the nyt has consistently fed into this hate through their mealy-mouthed Just Asking Questions that more often than not doesn't even quote any of us, so i would be over the moon to see them publish an article asking what cis people can do better to listen to us, make us feel less alienated and suicidal but yeah. i too want to do what i can to help men unlearn patriarchy; for their sake, and to live in a safer world in general
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:30 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:30 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
MiraK, this has been explicitly stated? The progressive ideal is that men take up too much space, are aggressive, unsensitive, and likely to hurt people if they express themselves - and so they should always be watching themselves for any sort of taking up space, and avoid taking up that space. The principle is that men should be giving up space in these conversations about men because...??? You disagree that they're suffering? Their suffering can never be centred?
posted by sagc at 8:30 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:30 AM on June 5 [22 favorites]
MiraK, for you to describe the quote you pulled from Tomorrowful as "misogynistic" is about the clearest example of what the article is talking about that one could want. The problem is not with "progresive feminists," and I don't think anyone here thinks that. The problem is what you, specifically, are doing, right here, right now. You, specifically, love to claim the mantle of true feminism any time a thread about the problems men face comes up. You've been doing it for many years, and your closed-minded attacks on men's discussions of their lived experiences is exactly what drove my (progressive! feminist!) wife to decide that MetaFilter is not a place worth engaging with. Please, please, please, please think about what you're doing here.
posted by biogeo at 8:33 AM on June 5 [72 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 8:33 AM on June 5 [72 favorites]
Social Circles historical comparison
Look at this chart too - look how many more friends men had than women when misogyny was far more 'present' than it is now. Sure is easy to have more friends when you have more time to hang out, maybe because you aren't making dinner and wife handles all the kids' stuff and cleaning....easy to see how men think getting that back is preferable. Men in 2021 are still doing better than women in 1991!
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:34 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Look at this chart too - look how many more friends men had than women when misogyny was far more 'present' than it is now. Sure is easy to have more friends when you have more time to hang out, maybe because you aren't making dinner and wife handles all the kids' stuff and cleaning....easy to see how men think getting that back is preferable. Men in 2021 are still doing better than women in 1991!
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:34 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
the progressive ideal is that men take up too much space
I don't think that's so much the progressive _ideal_ as it is what often happens in practice.
As far as US politics is concerned, what's deeply weird is that conservatives, whose whole philosophy is intolerance, are super welcoming to new people: "just vote red, and we're good", and only now in the full sunset of Trump has that started to change, whereas progressives, whose philosophy is tolerance for and delight in diversity, are generally really INtolerant toward new people: look at the number of progressives who use "centrist" as a smear for anyone not fully aboard their train.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:36 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
I don't think that's so much the progressive _ideal_ as it is what often happens in practice.
As far as US politics is concerned, what's deeply weird is that conservatives, whose whole philosophy is intolerance, are super welcoming to new people: "just vote red, and we're good", and only now in the full sunset of Trump has that started to change, whereas progressives, whose philosophy is tolerance for and delight in diversity, are generally really INtolerant toward new people: look at the number of progressives who use "centrist" as a smear for anyone not fully aboard their train.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:36 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
> The progressive ideal is that men take up too much space, are aggressive, unsensitive, and likely to hurt people if they express themselves - and so they should always be watching themselves for any sort of taking up space, and avoid taking up that space.
Ohhhh right, thank you for helping me connect the dots here. It might seem obvious to you all but it was not, to me, until this second.
I can see how the constant repetition of "men take up too much space" and "stop centering men" etc. in progressive spaces might cause men to feel like claiming ANY space for themselves is wrong. I can also see how it might join in resonance with the patriarchal notion of "men should not express feelings" and act as a double-strength lid on men to keep their feelings shut down.
Thank you so much for this lightbulb moment.
posted by MiraK at 8:37 AM on June 5 [44 favorites]
Ohhhh right, thank you for helping me connect the dots here. It might seem obvious to you all but it was not, to me, until this second.
I can see how the constant repetition of "men take up too much space" and "stop centering men" etc. in progressive spaces might cause men to feel like claiming ANY space for themselves is wrong. I can also see how it might join in resonance with the patriarchal notion of "men should not express feelings" and act as a double-strength lid on men to keep their feelings shut down.
Thank you so much for this lightbulb moment.
posted by MiraK at 8:37 AM on June 5 [44 favorites]
I have mentioned a couple of times in this thread, as explicitly as possible, that it's not men who are taking up all the space in the specific discussion in this thread, and people don't seem to have noticed.
posted by ambrosen at 8:38 AM on June 5 [34 favorites]
posted by ambrosen at 8:38 AM on June 5 [34 favorites]
I do apologize for my aggressive earlier comment.
posted by Kitteh at 8:41 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:41 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
> what are men doing
I want to clarify this question and re-ask it differently, in a way that pins down more precisely where I see further development needed:
What are men doing about other men?
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:43 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
I want to clarify this question and re-ask it differently, in a way that pins down more precisely where I see further development needed:
What are men doing about other men?
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:43 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
Thank you so much for this lightbulb moment.
posted by MiraK
Gentle encouragement to annotate sarcasm in threads that are this fraught, for the benefit of the significant percentage of Mefites on the spectrum. Not saying always, just when knives are fully out at this level, please. I have literally no way to tell.
posted by Ryvar at 8:44 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
posted by MiraK
Gentle encouragement to annotate sarcasm in threads that are this fraught, for the benefit of the significant percentage of Mefites on the spectrum. Not saying always, just when knives are fully out at this level, please. I have literally no way to tell.
posted by Ryvar at 8:44 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
But many progressives do in fact believe that men should not burden women with their feelings regardless of the context or content due to the power and privilege they hold.
Yes, men should not burden women with their feelings. This should not be controversial! But here's the thing - "talking about" != "burdening". There are ways to talk about - hell, to even center - men's feelings and emotions without placing the burden of those emotions and feelings on women.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:47 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Yes, men should not burden women with their feelings. This should not be controversial! But here's the thing - "talking about" != "burdening". There are ways to talk about - hell, to even center - men's feelings and emotions without placing the burden of those emotions and feelings on women.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:47 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
My lens is as a former boy of the 198s and participating in the raising of two boys, nephews, both of whom fell into NEET status and what's being done to pull them out of that.
Social pressures have always existed. Male role models are important to boys, but equally important are the reinforcements boys get from mothers, aunts and grandmothers. There are many "traditional", "ethnic" and religious traditions that embed boys in very toxic cultural expectations. There is not one of these, but many.
In the 1980s, RL peer groups and overlapping peer groups provided somewhat of a check on this---kids from conservative households had a real chance of escaping into peer groups, from school and through readily-available employment. Peer groups tended, IME to be mixed gender too. Kids had more external correction from more sources, and had less chance to fall into isolated and individual metal traps.
In the 2010s, peer groups are much more structured, based on externally-imposed choices (soccer teams or afterschool programs), or on line and so much more isolated from each other. Peer groups seem, IME, to be more strongly gendered than in prior generations. Boys do one activity and girls do another. Further more, if you're on one discord with your friend circle, you don't ever have to deal with others. There are fewer non-intentional "collisions" and social interactions.
As boys lose connections---school transitions are huge for this--- from their already meager friend groups, they tend to turn more inward and become isolated, depressed and hopeless. I've watched this happen twice now.
What has worked for my family is more or less the old recipes: get the boys into situations, out of home employment can be ideal, when they have to encounter and deal with a greater variety of people. That can help fill the immediate social needs. Have genuine discussion about long term goals. These feelings of helplessness are not just imagined. They are reinforced by the increasingly bad hand they've been dealt economically. Both felt they have no future because they perceive will never succeed as a breadwinner, and that the only model of success society gives them. If you can't provide for a family, meaning car, house etc..., you are effectively unlovable. So that needs addressing too.
I don't know what the answers are. These are superhard questions no one has good answers for right now.
Boys can be easy to miss slipping into this too, because they don't talk about these problems. They don't want to be problems for other people. Real Men solve their own problems right? But these boys, at least the two I know were both overwhelmed by expectations they had absorbed, and felt helpless and hopeless in the face of them. Shysters on the internet offering simple answers become very attractive and the Youtube algorithm is too willing to become not just a pipeline by a greased chute to Toxic Man Island.
I don't know if there is a more general lesson to be drawn from these anecdotes, but the pieces resonated with me in seeing the on-going experiences we have been dealing with as a family and are still wrestling with.
posted by bonehead at 8:48 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
Social pressures have always existed. Male role models are important to boys, but equally important are the reinforcements boys get from mothers, aunts and grandmothers. There are many "traditional", "ethnic" and religious traditions that embed boys in very toxic cultural expectations. There is not one of these, but many.
In the 1980s, RL peer groups and overlapping peer groups provided somewhat of a check on this---kids from conservative households had a real chance of escaping into peer groups, from school and through readily-available employment. Peer groups tended, IME to be mixed gender too. Kids had more external correction from more sources, and had less chance to fall into isolated and individual metal traps.
In the 2010s, peer groups are much more structured, based on externally-imposed choices (soccer teams or afterschool programs), or on line and so much more isolated from each other. Peer groups seem, IME, to be more strongly gendered than in prior generations. Boys do one activity and girls do another. Further more, if you're on one discord with your friend circle, you don't ever have to deal with others. There are fewer non-intentional "collisions" and social interactions.
As boys lose connections---school transitions are huge for this--- from their already meager friend groups, they tend to turn more inward and become isolated, depressed and hopeless. I've watched this happen twice now.
What has worked for my family is more or less the old recipes: get the boys into situations, out of home employment can be ideal, when they have to encounter and deal with a greater variety of people. That can help fill the immediate social needs. Have genuine discussion about long term goals. These feelings of helplessness are not just imagined. They are reinforced by the increasingly bad hand they've been dealt economically. Both felt they have no future because they perceive will never succeed as a breadwinner, and that the only model of success society gives them. If you can't provide for a family, meaning car, house etc..., you are effectively unlovable. So that needs addressing too.
I don't know what the answers are. These are superhard questions no one has good answers for right now.
Boys can be easy to miss slipping into this too, because they don't talk about these problems. They don't want to be problems for other people. Real Men solve their own problems right? But these boys, at least the two I know were both overwhelmed by expectations they had absorbed, and felt helpless and hopeless in the face of them. Shysters on the internet offering simple answers become very attractive and the Youtube algorithm is too willing to become not just a pipeline by a greased chute to Toxic Man Island.
I don't know if there is a more general lesson to be drawn from these anecdotes, but the pieces resonated with me in seeing the on-going experiences we have been dealing with as a family and are still wrestling with.
posted by bonehead at 8:48 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
I'd like to know in the name of exactly what progressive principle are feminists shutting down men when they discuss grief about losing loved ones, or anger about bullies.
It varies. Sometimes it’s incorrectly applied emotional labor, theory other times it’s claiming that because men have so much power and privilege in society, they should not expect women to do anything to help them which includes in individual interpersonal interactions. It’s also included, in mental health spaces, claiming that because women’s issues get so little time, and that men generally speak more than women, that the men in the group should not take any time or attention from the women in the group. There is also a belief that we should prioritize women’s feelings of safety—regardless of the actual, and in my cases literally psychologically assessed danger of the man in question—over men’s access to services and community, which can include significantly limiting male participation in settings that are intended to serve the entire community (not services specifically designed to be for women only). By progressives, this is considered regrettable but the “cost” of male privilege and violence, which they are expected to bear.
As a very concrete example, I work with a number of residential mental health programs. I have been in many situations where staff decide against admitting a male resident because their current therapy group is entirely women, and these women would feel unsafe having a male patient around (none of these programs are women-focused, just happen to sometimes only have women at a given point in time). This happens most commonly in the trauma program, but I’ve also seen it happen in DBT and depression programs as well. Again, from very progressive people, who are trying to do the right thing but which does in fact end up very literally shutting men out. Then, often if men do get admitted they have to police themselves very carefully regarding their emotions in ways that women on the unit do not, lest they be deemed too disruptive to the milieu and asked to leave.
This does not negate male privilege. But they are examples of ways men are commonly expected to shut down and minimize their emotions or help-seeking behaviors in service of progressive ideals. I happen to think all the people doing this are incorrect, obviously, but it is unfortunately a large chunk of the progressive population engaging in this. At least in my area.
might cause men to feel like claiming ANY space for themselves is wrong
To be clear it isn’t just men hearing this and incorrectly assuming they aren’t welcome. It also plays out exactly as they would expect in many situations.
posted by brook horse at 8:49 AM on June 5 [65 favorites]
It varies. Sometimes it’s incorrectly applied emotional labor, theory other times it’s claiming that because men have so much power and privilege in society, they should not expect women to do anything to help them which includes in individual interpersonal interactions. It’s also included, in mental health spaces, claiming that because women’s issues get so little time, and that men generally speak more than women, that the men in the group should not take any time or attention from the women in the group. There is also a belief that we should prioritize women’s feelings of safety—regardless of the actual, and in my cases literally psychologically assessed danger of the man in question—over men’s access to services and community, which can include significantly limiting male participation in settings that are intended to serve the entire community (not services specifically designed to be for women only). By progressives, this is considered regrettable but the “cost” of male privilege and violence, which they are expected to bear.
As a very concrete example, I work with a number of residential mental health programs. I have been in many situations where staff decide against admitting a male resident because their current therapy group is entirely women, and these women would feel unsafe having a male patient around (none of these programs are women-focused, just happen to sometimes only have women at a given point in time). This happens most commonly in the trauma program, but I’ve also seen it happen in DBT and depression programs as well. Again, from very progressive people, who are trying to do the right thing but which does in fact end up very literally shutting men out. Then, often if men do get admitted they have to police themselves very carefully regarding their emotions in ways that women on the unit do not, lest they be deemed too disruptive to the milieu and asked to leave.
This does not negate male privilege. But they are examples of ways men are commonly expected to shut down and minimize their emotions or help-seeking behaviors in service of progressive ideals. I happen to think all the people doing this are incorrect, obviously, but it is unfortunately a large chunk of the progressive population engaging in this. At least in my area.
might cause men to feel like claiming ANY space for themselves is wrong
To be clear it isn’t just men hearing this and incorrectly assuming they aren’t welcome. It also plays out exactly as they would expect in many situations.
posted by brook horse at 8:49 AM on June 5 [65 favorites]
What are men doing about other men?
I don’t have a link on hand because my exposure to it has been directly within communities and I’m not sure the overarching term for them, but there are growing “healthy masculinity” groups that focus on teaching each other emotional skills and how to better show up for people in their lives, which typically includes unlearning sexism and learning how to be feminists even if it’s not named as such. Many of these in my area are by and for black men, though I’ve seen others led by male therapists or community leaders of various backgrounds.
(There’s probably also things men are doing online and in various other forms of communication but I am terminally offline individual who never reads the newspaper so I can’t speak to that. Most of my information is from in-person community groups and advocacy work, so I’m not familiar with the internet activism landscape.)
posted by brook horse at 8:56 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
I don’t have a link on hand because my exposure to it has been directly within communities and I’m not sure the overarching term for them, but there are growing “healthy masculinity” groups that focus on teaching each other emotional skills and how to better show up for people in their lives, which typically includes unlearning sexism and learning how to be feminists even if it’s not named as such. Many of these in my area are by and for black men, though I’ve seen others led by male therapists or community leaders of various backgrounds.
(There’s probably also things men are doing online and in various other forms of communication but I am terminally offline individual who never reads the newspaper so I can’t speak to that. Most of my information is from in-person community groups and advocacy work, so I’m not familiar with the internet activism landscape.)
posted by brook horse at 8:56 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
There are ways to talk about - hell, to even center - men's feelings and emotions without placing the burden of those emotions and feelings on women.
Okay but even in this thread which is ostensibly about men's feelings, we're having the debate about whether it's okay to talk about those feelings at all.
I'm AMAB and the amount of hedging and acknowledging of women's feelings and historical context and power imbalance I'd need to preface any statement I'd make about my own lived experiences to be able to contribute to this thread is just entirely too exhausting to deal with. It feels like if I don't come in with full solutions to every problem and a deep apology for patriarchy then it's not a subject I can talk about.
I've thought a lot about this over decades and done a lot of work on myself and with those around me, but this isn't a space that feels like I can talk about any of that as anything other than a side note about women in society.
Some of understanding what men are doing about this is expressing a willingness to listen when the topic comes up. Shutting down the discussion preemptively with "why haven't you fixed this already" doesn't make that possible.
posted by fader at 9:02 AM on June 5 [41 favorites]
Okay but even in this thread which is ostensibly about men's feelings, we're having the debate about whether it's okay to talk about those feelings at all.
I'm AMAB and the amount of hedging and acknowledging of women's feelings and historical context and power imbalance I'd need to preface any statement I'd make about my own lived experiences to be able to contribute to this thread is just entirely too exhausting to deal with. It feels like if I don't come in with full solutions to every problem and a deep apology for patriarchy then it's not a subject I can talk about.
I've thought a lot about this over decades and done a lot of work on myself and with those around me, but this isn't a space that feels like I can talk about any of that as anything other than a side note about women in society.
Some of understanding what men are doing about this is expressing a willingness to listen when the topic comes up. Shutting down the discussion preemptively with "why haven't you fixed this already" doesn't make that possible.
posted by fader at 9:02 AM on June 5 [41 favorites]
Almost all of the policing of young men comes from other young men (and older men), not from women or progressive feminists. I'd really like to hear from articles like these or from comments by men some specific examples if they're having the opposite experience.
My loved one was raised by a lesbian mother who constantly shamed him for having sexual urges as a teenager, telling him "you men are all alike" and such. He died at age 30 due to drugs. I cringed at the Emily Dickinson poem she put on his gravestone.
Another friend was also raised by a lesbian with a partner and her daughter, and she didn't think growing boys needed to eat any more food than she did. He described to me how "she would make four pork chops for four people." He now battles food hoarding issues.
My sister is a bisexual flake who for a few years decided to live in a commune with other lesbians and her only son, my 14-year-old nephew. He was the only male and only teenager there. The other women in the commune berated him for acting like a boy (too loud, sometimes messy, etc.). He acted out by taking my sister's car and crashing it. Thankfully, she realized it wasn't a good environment for him and left that situation (though she might have left anyway since she hasn't lived in any one place for more than a few years at a time).
I have more stories.
posted by sockerpup at 9:03 AM on June 5 [40 favorites]
My loved one was raised by a lesbian mother who constantly shamed him for having sexual urges as a teenager, telling him "you men are all alike" and such. He died at age 30 due to drugs. I cringed at the Emily Dickinson poem she put on his gravestone.
Another friend was also raised by a lesbian with a partner and her daughter, and she didn't think growing boys needed to eat any more food than she did. He described to me how "she would make four pork chops for four people." He now battles food hoarding issues.
My sister is a bisexual flake who for a few years decided to live in a commune with other lesbians and her only son, my 14-year-old nephew. He was the only male and only teenager there. The other women in the commune berated him for acting like a boy (too loud, sometimes messy, etc.). He acted out by taking my sister's car and crashing it. Thankfully, she realized it wasn't a good environment for him and left that situation (though she might have left anyway since she hasn't lived in any one place for more than a few years at a time).
I have more stories.
posted by sockerpup at 9:03 AM on June 5 [40 favorites]
I keep thinking about this clip from a tumblr thread about "chronic emotional malnutrition".
posted by xedrik at 9:05 AM on June 5 [23 favorites]
posted by xedrik at 9:05 AM on June 5 [23 favorites]
> staff decide against admitting a male resident because their current therapy group is entirely women, and these women would feel unsafe having a male patient around (none of these programs are women-focused, just happen to sometimes only have women. ... it isn’t just men ... incorrectly assuming they aren’t welcome.
Right! Again, thank you so much for helping me connect the dots on things I've ~known vaguely of~ but never truly considered.
> There are ways to talk about - hell, to even center - men's feelings and emotions without placing the burden of those emotions and feelings on women.
With the benefit of my newfound lightbulb moment, Nox, I can see there is a need to educate men (and everyone else) about how to make this happen, to invite men explicitly to do it, to make an active effort rather than leaving a passive door open. There has to be a way to balance this against the undue burdens of community-building labor women shoulder, which we will need to learn through trial and error I think. And as brook horse notes, there is increasingly leadership being shown by men to create these spaces for men.
posted by MiraK at 9:06 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
Right! Again, thank you so much for helping me connect the dots on things I've ~known vaguely of~ but never truly considered.
> There are ways to talk about - hell, to even center - men's feelings and emotions without placing the burden of those emotions and feelings on women.
With the benefit of my newfound lightbulb moment, Nox, I can see there is a need to educate men (and everyone else) about how to make this happen, to invite men explicitly to do it, to make an active effort rather than leaving a passive door open. There has to be a way to balance this against the undue burdens of community-building labor women shoulder, which we will need to learn through trial and error I think. And as brook horse notes, there is increasingly leadership being shown by men to create these spaces for men.
posted by MiraK at 9:06 AM on June 5 [13 favorites]
I think the piece is pinpointing a real problem, but it has the wrong diagnosis, because it characterizes feminists and/or progressive as silencing or demonizing boys writ large, but I think the problem is more about indifference than malice. The fact that the core problem for boys is isolation and loneliness also suggests the problem is not rooted in hostility, but in indifference. If it were rooted in hostility and animus, boys writ large would all be having experience akin to what young black men experience with respect to police harassment and brutality. I'd expect some young black men would prefer isolation, if it meant the police left them alone.
posted by jonp72 at 9:07 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 9:07 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
I dunno, indifference can be worse than hostility. At least you can build an identity around being unfairly maligned; indifference just ends in feeling like a non-person who doesn't rate enough to be hostile towards.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:10 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:10 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
so that's the issue, right, WHO exactly is "not listening", and TO WHAT are they "not listening"?
Well, have you asked men and boys in your life the series of questions you're posing? Are they specifically having these experiences? I think it's worth asking, because I don't think this is about "progressive feminists" so much as it is about how men and women enact these things and hold each other to these standards fairly unconsciously, habitually, and reflexively, regardless of their political priors.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:11 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Well, have you asked men and boys in your life the series of questions you're posing? Are they specifically having these experiences? I think it's worth asking, because I don't think this is about "progressive feminists" so much as it is about how men and women enact these things and hold each other to these standards fairly unconsciously, habitually, and reflexively, regardless of their political priors.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:11 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
anyway one very specific thing for me personally is that are aren't non-toxic "scripts" for how to get dates with women. Men are still assumed to be the initiators (fine) but how do you do that while feministly taking up the exact right amount of space but also not being stilted and weird? Online dating is even worse, because men are assured that every woman is being bombarded by a constant flow of grasping men online (true), and the prospect of joining that is not appealing either. So other than hoping that someone else initiates, I don't know what's left.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:11 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:11 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
I dunno, indifference can be worse than hostility. At least you can build an identity around being unfairly maligned; indifference just ends in feeling like a non-person who doesn't rate enough to be hostile towards.
I definitely agree it can be worse, but that wasn't the argument the author of the article was making. The article stated, "Silencing or demonizing boys in the name of progressive ideals is only reinforcing this problem, pushing them further into isolation and defensiveness," which assumes they view the problem among progressives as rooted in hostility to boys not indifference.
That being said, of course indifference is bad! If progressives or feminists aren't reaching boys and young men, then Andrew Tate or Joe Rogan is going to step into the gap. That's how hegemony works.
posted by jonp72 at 9:14 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I definitely agree it can be worse, but that wasn't the argument the author of the article was making. The article stated, "Silencing or demonizing boys in the name of progressive ideals is only reinforcing this problem, pushing them further into isolation and defensiveness," which assumes they view the problem among progressives as rooted in hostility to boys not indifference.
That being said, of course indifference is bad! If progressives or feminists aren't reaching boys and young men, then Andrew Tate or Joe Rogan is going to step into the gap. That's how hegemony works.
posted by jonp72 at 9:14 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I don't have a lot to say right now, but for eight years I (cishet white male) was part of a program that was designed to create a space where men could talk about things like gender socialization, power and oppression and healthy relationships. The nature of the program was that most participants were not their by choice, and also exactly the kind of people tho think Tate and Peterson have something important to say. I witnessed a number of guys having "lightbulb moments", which was heartening. But approaching these discussion groups with compassion and understanding (because we were trying to model the behaviors and relationships we wanted to encourage) was fucking exhausting, and I had to eventually step back. I've been trying to create more groups where participantion is more voluntary. But even with men who want to be there, this shit is so thick and pervasive that it feels overwhelming.
posted by Gorgik at 9:15 AM on June 5 [32 favorites]
posted by Gorgik at 9:15 AM on June 5 [32 favorites]
I think the big, big problem here is that the New York Times is reactionary and only publishes stuff like this in the hopes of influencing policy against women and against feminists. They don't give a good goddamn about boys except the children of the rich, or they wouldn't advocate for the policies that they do. They're just mobilizing "will no one think of the poor boys, so silenced and oppressed by eeeeeeevil feminists" in order to provide cover for all kinds of initiatives that decrease gender equality.
Would this conversation have gone this route if this post were about something published on a feminist blog? It wouldn't have been absolutely 100% different, but starting from a known source of reaction is always going to tip the discussion.
posted by Frowner at 9:16 AM on June 5 [47 favorites]
Would this conversation have gone this route if this post were about something published on a feminist blog? It wouldn't have been absolutely 100% different, but starting from a known source of reaction is always going to tip the discussion.
posted by Frowner at 9:16 AM on June 5 [47 favorites]
Jonp72, I don’t quite agree with your framing, but men of any race are significantly more likely to experience police brutality than women.
posted by brook horse at 9:17 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Estimated deaths due to police violence were also orders of magnitude higher for males of any race or ethnicity than females of any race or ethnicity, with 30 600 deaths (30 100–31 000) in males and 1420 deaths (1400–1440) in females from 1980 to 2019, a difference of 2054% (2054–2054; figure 3).Re: hostility vs indifference, it is also in many cases literally hostility, as in actively shutting men out, not just “not inviting them in.”
posted by brook horse at 9:17 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
> We need to acknowledge boys’ feelings, to talk with our sons in the same way we do our daughters, to hear them and empathize rather than dismiss or minimize, and engage with them as fully emotional beings.
Again, it's worth noting that only progressive feminist parents are doing this. It's literally just us. Apolitical people aren't doing it. Radfems aren't doing it. Fucking conservatives sure as fuck aren't doing it. It's 100% only progressive feminist parents who are trying to raise boys this way.
Bluntly, this is bullshit. No, regressive right-wing parents are not doing this but a LOT of parents are, without having anything like the bona fides MeFi would require to wear the progressive feminist label. Like...the sole person in my entire extended family who ever votes republican* has a trans child and has raised that child in a fully emotionally supportive household, because a school counselor was like "this is what you have to do if you love your kid" and capital-P Progressives aren't the only people capable of love.
*less and less every year that passes, but still.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:18 AM on June 5 [36 favorites]
Again, it's worth noting that only progressive feminist parents are doing this. It's literally just us. Apolitical people aren't doing it. Radfems aren't doing it. Fucking conservatives sure as fuck aren't doing it. It's 100% only progressive feminist parents who are trying to raise boys this way.
Bluntly, this is bullshit. No, regressive right-wing parents are not doing this but a LOT of parents are, without having anything like the bona fides MeFi would require to wear the progressive feminist label. Like...the sole person in my entire extended family who ever votes republican* has a trans child and has raised that child in a fully emotionally supportive household, because a school counselor was like "this is what you have to do if you love your kid" and capital-P Progressives aren't the only people capable of love.
*less and less every year that passes, but still.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:18 AM on June 5 [36 favorites]
Yeah if you think progressive feminists are the only people trying to address mental health in their communities and children… you would be mistaken.
Most of the highly engaged parents who were doing this work at the clinic I worked at were at the very least apolitical, because they had minimal education or time to engage in politics (even though this impacts them greatly). And many of the rest were centrists as progressive feminist principles would define them.
posted by brook horse at 9:20 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Most of the highly engaged parents who were doing this work at the clinic I worked at were at the very least apolitical, because they had minimal education or time to engage in politics (even though this impacts them greatly). And many of the rest were centrists as progressive feminist principles would define them.
posted by brook horse at 9:20 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
There is a young man in my local subreddit who asked where to get his nails done as he bites them, and the women are going, "Oh, don't worry about it! Salons have male customers too. Just call! Good luck!" and the men are, uh, not responding well to a man wanting to have nice nails. Let this gentleman get his nails done in peace!
This. I'm a cishet adult male. While there have times when I've felt a little uncomfortable for being a man in "progressive spaces" (and I've even been called out a couple times for acting insensitively--we all make mistakes and then learn from those mistakes) those experiences pale in comparison to how anxious I can feel around other men.
Even though I try very hard to be confident in who I am, I'll catch myself checking to make sure my swim trunks are sufficiently long enough or that I'm speaking with a deep enough voice or that I'm getting my hair cut at a place where other dudes get their hair cut or that I'm meeting some other arbitrary standard of "manliness" lest I be judged and made fun of by guys I don't even know.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:23 AM on June 5 [16 favorites]
This. I'm a cishet adult male. While there have times when I've felt a little uncomfortable for being a man in "progressive spaces" (and I've even been called out a couple times for acting insensitively--we all make mistakes and then learn from those mistakes) those experiences pale in comparison to how anxious I can feel around other men.
Even though I try very hard to be confident in who I am, I'll catch myself checking to make sure my swim trunks are sufficiently long enough or that I'm speaking with a deep enough voice or that I'm getting my hair cut at a place where other dudes get their hair cut or that I'm meeting some other arbitrary standard of "manliness" lest I be judged and made fun of by guys I don't even know.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:23 AM on June 5 [16 favorites]
Another problem is that people are capable of great subtlety in life but not so capable of it on the internet. Just imagine for a minute that your student, your child, your nephew or some other kid to whom you had a connection seemed unhappy or were spouting garbage Tate talking points. Wouldn't you worry a lot and try to help? I think most of us would, and I don't think most of us would respond by saying, "you're worried about Thing, well shut up, other people have it harder, especially women". I think that most of us would feel that a person responding like that was abusive.
A problem with online in all its forms is that people assume it's life, just online. I've suffered a lot from this myself in terms of both left and right issues - internalizing hateful and bad right wing statements about whether I had value and what I was capable of, and internalizing left-wing "virtually everything you do, say or think is extremely oppressive unless you aggressively self-monitor every waking minute" tumblr-isms. And yet, on those occasions when I've actually been in society with actual individuals, I have pretty much never encountered people who truly hold those views when faced with a living person.
I can certainly see that a young man who spent most of his time online could easily have the same experience - truly believing that Andrew Tate was something other than a scam artists, talking to women is gay, etc, or truly believing that if he didn't shut up and suppress every naturally occurring thought or interest he was trampling others.
This does not seem like a problem of progressivism so much as a problem of online that is expressed on both the left and the right. (Although it's the right that really tries to weaponize this on and grift on it; you do encounter left grifters in this sphere, but they are more the "let me stay with you for free forever or you are an oppressive monster" types than well organized and wealthy.)
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on June 5 [34 favorites]
A problem with online in all its forms is that people assume it's life, just online. I've suffered a lot from this myself in terms of both left and right issues - internalizing hateful and bad right wing statements about whether I had value and what I was capable of, and internalizing left-wing "virtually everything you do, say or think is extremely oppressive unless you aggressively self-monitor every waking minute" tumblr-isms. And yet, on those occasions when I've actually been in society with actual individuals, I have pretty much never encountered people who truly hold those views when faced with a living person.
I can certainly see that a young man who spent most of his time online could easily have the same experience - truly believing that Andrew Tate was something other than a scam artists, talking to women is gay, etc, or truly believing that if he didn't shut up and suppress every naturally occurring thought or interest he was trampling others.
This does not seem like a problem of progressivism so much as a problem of online that is expressed on both the left and the right. (Although it's the right that really tries to weaponize this on and grift on it; you do encounter left grifters in this sphere, but they are more the "let me stay with you for free forever or you are an oppressive monster" types than well organized and wealthy.)
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on June 5 [34 favorites]
One of the programs that saved my life in high school was peer counseling. A select group of sophomores would spend a summer studying some pretty basic counseling material. At the start of their junior year, they’d be paired with another student counselor of the opposite gender and then freshmen could apply to join their weekly discussion group, and the group would continue to meet until the counselors graduated. This was way back in the 2000’s. It was the first experience I ever had with what would later be known as a safe space. At the time I didn’t understand my parents personality disorders, the way they interacted, and the emotional world I had been locked out of. I had never, ever ventured near some emotional waters - here there be dragons - but over years, the boy and girl who lead that group established trust and rapport, and slowly drew it out. The kindness and generosity of those two mature children quite literally saved my life, and when sophomore year drew to a close, I immediately applied to train as a peer counselor myself.
The curriculum was pretty grueling, just as hard as my regular hyper competitive school load. But I will never forget the absolutely earth-shattering book I read on men’s emotional vocabulary, or lack thereof. So, so much made sense after that. There were so many feelings and concepts that I literally didn’t have the words for until I read that book. I was suddenly, keenly aware that I was able to see dynamics that were functionally invisible to the men around me, that the knowledge I possessed was never taught to them (if it wasn’t actively hidden), and that even if many were suffering, they had no hope of digging themselves out of their own hole with the tools available to them. They literally didn’t have the words.
In no case was this more true than my father. I could see with stunning clarity what he endured from my borderline mother, I could see the unnamable emotions welling up inside him, and disastrous ways he relieved this tension. It was a surreal experience realizing that I had a greater emotional vocabulary and ability to regulate my own emotions than my father did. His development had been stunted in a way I had just overcome. When he turned to alcohol, this ability to model and predict his behavior was very much a survival skill.
Men are not, by nature, children incapable of emotional regulation.
Children are not, by nature, incapable of emotional regulation. But if we don’t allow boys to express their emotions, if we don’t teach them how regulate them (and give them practice!), if they don’t even have the vocabulary to identify their own emotions, let alone the safety to express them.. then pray tell, by what mechanism and at what age should we expect them to gain these skills? Are they imbued at 18? Do we have to wait until their brains are done growing around 24-25? These boys who have never been taught how to handle their emotions and have been actively punished when they’ve tried – where are they supposed to learn and practice the skills necessary to build up their capacity for emotional regulation? The fire of puberty fades and minds mature, but I’m not positive these skills just emerge endogenously and fully formed as a routine part of biological development. Which I guess leaves, IDK, osmosis?
In all matters of emotional regulation, my early experience as a peer counselor has given me an enormous leg up over other most every single other man I’ve ever met in my life. That is not because I am good or special. It’s because I was taught early, as part of my curriculum. I work as hard as I can to share what I know wherever I can, because seriously how else are men supposed to be learning this stuff? I’ve been an executive in a male-dominated field for many, many years now, and an enormous part of my job is weekly or bi-weekly 1:1 meetings with the men who report to me. In most of these meetings, we spend maybe 15 minutes discussing work or deliverables, and then 45 minutes with me checking in on how they’re doing, how they’re feeling, what their hopes are, what they fear. This is part of a structured process I have developed over many years to build trust, safety and rapport so we can get to the real stuff (if they want!!), which I’ll then transfer off-channel. And then the tears come.
I am telling you from personal experience that men are dying for this. So, so many of the men I meet are keenly aware that a part of themselves is off-limits, and that part hurts, but they aren’t allowed to touch it. I know my approach has changed lives, because people tell me all the time. Compound this with corporate patriarchy bullshit and most of these men have never in their lives had another man take an interest in them as full human beings.
For a long, long time, whenever someone would ask “what about the menz!?” I’d respond with some variation on “sure buddy, maybe, but where do you think the pendulum is now? We are so far in the red, talk to me when the pendulum has clearly, unambiguously swung past the line in the opposite direction.”
I’ve been working with more Gen Zs in the last few years, and it’s been a real eye opener. Whatever mental goalpost I had in mind, I think the pendulum may be past that.
posted by 1024 at 9:30 AM on June 5 [94 favorites]
The curriculum was pretty grueling, just as hard as my regular hyper competitive school load. But I will never forget the absolutely earth-shattering book I read on men’s emotional vocabulary, or lack thereof. So, so much made sense after that. There were so many feelings and concepts that I literally didn’t have the words for until I read that book. I was suddenly, keenly aware that I was able to see dynamics that were functionally invisible to the men around me, that the knowledge I possessed was never taught to them (if it wasn’t actively hidden), and that even if many were suffering, they had no hope of digging themselves out of their own hole with the tools available to them. They literally didn’t have the words.
In no case was this more true than my father. I could see with stunning clarity what he endured from my borderline mother, I could see the unnamable emotions welling up inside him, and disastrous ways he relieved this tension. It was a surreal experience realizing that I had a greater emotional vocabulary and ability to regulate my own emotions than my father did. His development had been stunted in a way I had just overcome. When he turned to alcohol, this ability to model and predict his behavior was very much a survival skill.
Men are not, by nature, children incapable of emotional regulation.
Children are not, by nature, incapable of emotional regulation. But if we don’t allow boys to express their emotions, if we don’t teach them how regulate them (and give them practice!), if they don’t even have the vocabulary to identify their own emotions, let alone the safety to express them.. then pray tell, by what mechanism and at what age should we expect them to gain these skills? Are they imbued at 18? Do we have to wait until their brains are done growing around 24-25? These boys who have never been taught how to handle their emotions and have been actively punished when they’ve tried – where are they supposed to learn and practice the skills necessary to build up their capacity for emotional regulation? The fire of puberty fades and minds mature, but I’m not positive these skills just emerge endogenously and fully formed as a routine part of biological development. Which I guess leaves, IDK, osmosis?
In all matters of emotional regulation, my early experience as a peer counselor has given me an enormous leg up over other most every single other man I’ve ever met in my life. That is not because I am good or special. It’s because I was taught early, as part of my curriculum. I work as hard as I can to share what I know wherever I can, because seriously how else are men supposed to be learning this stuff? I’ve been an executive in a male-dominated field for many, many years now, and an enormous part of my job is weekly or bi-weekly 1:1 meetings with the men who report to me. In most of these meetings, we spend maybe 15 minutes discussing work or deliverables, and then 45 minutes with me checking in on how they’re doing, how they’re feeling, what their hopes are, what they fear. This is part of a structured process I have developed over many years to build trust, safety and rapport so we can get to the real stuff (if they want!!), which I’ll then transfer off-channel. And then the tears come.
I am telling you from personal experience that men are dying for this. So, so many of the men I meet are keenly aware that a part of themselves is off-limits, and that part hurts, but they aren’t allowed to touch it. I know my approach has changed lives, because people tell me all the time. Compound this with corporate patriarchy bullshit and most of these men have never in their lives had another man take an interest in them as full human beings.
For a long, long time, whenever someone would ask “what about the menz!?” I’d respond with some variation on “sure buddy, maybe, but where do you think the pendulum is now? We are so far in the red, talk to me when the pendulum has clearly, unambiguously swung past the line in the opposite direction.”
I’ve been working with more Gen Zs in the last few years, and it’s been a real eye opener. Whatever mental goalpost I had in mind, I think the pendulum may be past that.
posted by 1024 at 9:30 AM on June 5 [94 favorites]
Children are not, by nature, incapable of emotional regulation. But if we don’t allow boys to express their emotions, if we don’t teach them how regulate them (and give them practice!), if they don’t even have the vocabulary to identify their own emotions, let alone the safety to express them.. then pray tell, by what mechanism and at what age should we expect them to gain these skills?
Interestingly, my nephew (who is 8, and not 7, as I mistakenly suggested recently and was corrected about at great length) goes to a school that spends a lot of time on emotional stuff -- how to identify your emotions and how to share them in a safe way and how to react to other people's emotions. It's a fancy pants school, so maybe that's not working its way into the mainstream curriculum but I do think it's the kind of thing that can and should be taught early on.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:38 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
Interestingly, my nephew (who is 8, and not 7, as I mistakenly suggested recently and was corrected about at great length) goes to a school that spends a lot of time on emotional stuff -- how to identify your emotions and how to share them in a safe way and how to react to other people's emotions. It's a fancy pants school, so maybe that's not working its way into the mainstream curriculum but I do think it's the kind of thing that can and should be taught early on.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:38 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
^ can confirm that the elementary school kids in my circles are doing a lot of social-emotional learning, but this has actually been entirely banned in some states (e.g., Florida -- literally, you cannot ask a child to identify or use a feeling word in an educational product in the state of Florida)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:40 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:40 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
other times it’s claiming that because men have so much power and privilege in society, they should not expect women to do anything to help them which includes in individual interpersonal interactions.
Well yes, because they shouldn't expect the labor of others (unless that person is obliged by their position to provide aid.) And this principle goes across the board for everyone, and it doesn't mean "don't ask", but "accept that the answer may be 'no'." And on the same token, we as a society pretty much suck across the board on helping people in mental crisis for a number of reasons, and that's something we need to address.
Again, from very progressive people, who are trying to do the right thing but which does in fact end up very literally shutting men out.
They are not doing the "right thing", they are doing the expedient thing - and they absolutely should be called out for it, especially because they are in a position where they are obliged to provide aid.
anyway one very specific thing for me personally is that are aren't non-toxic "scripts" for how to get dates with women. Men are still assumed to be the initiators (fine) but how do you do that while feministly taking up the exact right amount of space but also not being stilted and weird?
The "script" is simple - treat women as people, take no for an answer, and realize that women are just as interested in connections of all sorts as men, as long as they know they can be safe. (Also, realizing that we're all "stilted and weird" when it comes to dating, and to just embrace your inner doofus.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:43 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
Well yes, because they shouldn't expect the labor of others (unless that person is obliged by their position to provide aid.) And this principle goes across the board for everyone, and it doesn't mean "don't ask", but "accept that the answer may be 'no'." And on the same token, we as a society pretty much suck across the board on helping people in mental crisis for a number of reasons, and that's something we need to address.
Again, from very progressive people, who are trying to do the right thing but which does in fact end up very literally shutting men out.
They are not doing the "right thing", they are doing the expedient thing - and they absolutely should be called out for it, especially because they are in a position where they are obliged to provide aid.
anyway one very specific thing for me personally is that are aren't non-toxic "scripts" for how to get dates with women. Men are still assumed to be the initiators (fine) but how do you do that while feministly taking up the exact right amount of space but also not being stilted and weird?
The "script" is simple - treat women as people, take no for an answer, and realize that women are just as interested in connections of all sorts as men, as long as they know they can be safe. (Also, realizing that we're all "stilted and weird" when it comes to dating, and to just embrace your inner doofus.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:43 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
For a lot of people, on both sides of the equation, being asked/asking is in fact seen as a burden.
posted by sagc at 9:48 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:48 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
To be clear, I’m talking about people who think it’s reasonable to expect (but not demand) your social circle to provide you some emotional support, unless you’re a man asking a woman, in which case the asking alone is derided because women already deal with so much more than men.
posted by brook horse at 9:48 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 9:48 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
Laura Palmer's Cold Dead Kiss: "What I never hear is what the fuck MEN are doing. What responsibility do men have for their own behavior? What responsibility to men have to teach boys better coping strategies? What can men do on a personal level to be better people?"
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I agree with you that men need to take responsibility.
Personally, I have spent the last 15 years trying to teach my son not to be an entitled asshole (including being forthright about ensuring he learns from MY mistakes). I've spent the past 10 years working with male youth groups, volunteering an awful lot of my time to hang out with boys as they go from grade school to high school. I have to say, these boys? They're FAR better than boys were when I was their age. They are more kind, more aware, more accepting, and working with them has been truly great. They're a good influence on my son, and I am glad he has this group to socialize with.
I know that a lot of the reason why these kids are going to be alright is because of where we live and because their parents are largely involved, caring, decent people. I'm not under any illusion that the boys we know inside this lefty-leaning city are representative of the boys elsewhere in our state or country. But these kids, they're alright. And I am happy to be one of the people helping them figure out what kind of men they want to be as they grow up.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:56 AM on June 5 [30 favorites]
I can't speak for everyone of course, but I agree with you that men need to take responsibility.
Personally, I have spent the last 15 years trying to teach my son not to be an entitled asshole (including being forthright about ensuring he learns from MY mistakes). I've spent the past 10 years working with male youth groups, volunteering an awful lot of my time to hang out with boys as they go from grade school to high school. I have to say, these boys? They're FAR better than boys were when I was their age. They are more kind, more aware, more accepting, and working with them has been truly great. They're a good influence on my son, and I am glad he has this group to socialize with.
I know that a lot of the reason why these kids are going to be alright is because of where we live and because their parents are largely involved, caring, decent people. I'm not under any illusion that the boys we know inside this lefty-leaning city are representative of the boys elsewhere in our state or country. But these kids, they're alright. And I am happy to be one of the people helping them figure out what kind of men they want to be as they grow up.
posted by caution live frogs at 9:56 AM on June 5 [30 favorites]
One study from 2014 showed that parents were more likely to use emotional words when talking with their 4-year-old daughters than those speaking to their 4-year-old sons. (Right from birth, mothers were less likely to chat back to boys’ early sounds.)
I'd heard that too... also that babies DRESSED as girls were picked up and talked to more often than babies DRESSED as boys (so not even about the actual gender of the babies). Babies dressed as boys were allowed to take more physical risks to develop their motor skills, but babies dressed as girls had more chances to learn language. The socialization into gender roles starts from birth.
posted by subdee at 10:02 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
I'd heard that too... also that babies DRESSED as girls were picked up and talked to more often than babies DRESSED as boys (so not even about the actual gender of the babies). Babies dressed as boys were allowed to take more physical risks to develop their motor skills, but babies dressed as girls had more chances to learn language. The socialization into gender roles starts from birth.
posted by subdee at 10:02 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
I think another important thing to foreground is how much we are performing for our in-groups. (And how rapidly this spirals out of control when it's monetized for clicks.)
Whenever someone says something incredibly, obviously stupidly harmful on tumblr/twitter/etc, they are doing it for pats on the back from their social circle and in order to shore up the social circle - "we're all like This, except those Feahful Outsidahs who are like That". Their social circle may be toxic, their social circle may be afraid of being attacked in their turn or they may have a totally incorrect understanding of their audience, but away they go, reinforcing terrible stupid ideas. They're not really even speaking to the targets of their comments; they're performing Being Exceptionally Correct for the people they think of as peers, and the people they think of as peers may not even really exist.
unless you’re a man asking a woman, in which case the asking alone is derided because women already deal with so much more than men.
Again, most of the places I see this kind of derision are on social media, where the terrible, stupid emotional point isn't to deride men, it's to show off to your audience how bold and badass you are. This is the intellectual equivalent of Andrew Tate insisting that it's gay to spend social time with women.
I can certainly believe that there are individual instances where people actually respond to their friends' average, normal emotional needs with "stop bothering me, men take up too much space", but I would bet that almost all of those people are performing for the Big Internet in their heads, not responding out of genuine belief that we should treat an individual as a sort of average of all their type.
The internet is a huge norming machine and we all line up to be normed, and in very specific situations (queer people getting to know other queer people, BIPOC artists getting to connect with other BIPOC artists, etc) it is good, but most of us are getting normed by an incredibly toxic internet where people are constantly performing for others out of fear and the need for affirmation.
posted by Frowner at 10:05 AM on June 5 [36 favorites]
Whenever someone says something incredibly, obviously stupidly harmful on tumblr/twitter/etc, they are doing it for pats on the back from their social circle and in order to shore up the social circle - "we're all like This, except those Feahful Outsidahs who are like That". Their social circle may be toxic, their social circle may be afraid of being attacked in their turn or they may have a totally incorrect understanding of their audience, but away they go, reinforcing terrible stupid ideas. They're not really even speaking to the targets of their comments; they're performing Being Exceptionally Correct for the people they think of as peers, and the people they think of as peers may not even really exist.
unless you’re a man asking a woman, in which case the asking alone is derided because women already deal with so much more than men.
Again, most of the places I see this kind of derision are on social media, where the terrible, stupid emotional point isn't to deride men, it's to show off to your audience how bold and badass you are. This is the intellectual equivalent of Andrew Tate insisting that it's gay to spend social time with women.
I can certainly believe that there are individual instances where people actually respond to their friends' average, normal emotional needs with "stop bothering me, men take up too much space", but I would bet that almost all of those people are performing for the Big Internet in their heads, not responding out of genuine belief that we should treat an individual as a sort of average of all their type.
The internet is a huge norming machine and we all line up to be normed, and in very specific situations (queer people getting to know other queer people, BIPOC artists getting to connect with other BIPOC artists, etc) it is good, but most of us are getting normed by an incredibly toxic internet where people are constantly performing for others out of fear and the need for affirmation.
posted by Frowner at 10:05 AM on June 5 [36 favorites]
> Even though I try very hard to be confident in who I am, I'll catch myself checking to make sure my swim trunks are sufficiently long enough or that I'm speaking with a deep enough voice or that I'm getting my hair cut at a place where other dudes get their hair cut or that I'm meeting some other arbitrary standard of "manliness" lest I be judged and made fun of by guys I don't even know.
the thing that helped me get over that sort of thing was realizing that i am dead sexy, like, that i am to use shellstropian language a total smokeshow, and as such if anyone wants to judge me for the things i do and how i do them i can simply refer them to the long trail of people of all genders so overwhelmed by lust that they have passed out on the street that i leave in my wake wherever i go
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:07 AM on June 5 [24 favorites]
the thing that helped me get over that sort of thing was realizing that i am dead sexy, like, that i am to use shellstropian language a total smokeshow, and as such if anyone wants to judge me for the things i do and how i do them i can simply refer them to the long trail of people of all genders so overwhelmed by lust that they have passed out on the street that i leave in my wake wherever i go
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:07 AM on June 5 [24 favorites]
like yes yes if my swim trunks are too short or my haircut too stylish i might cause a few extra car crashes but i lay the blame for that on car culture rather than on my personal magnificence
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:13 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:13 AM on June 5 [25 favorites]
I guess also there's this: virtually no parent teaches boys that they, too, can give and withdraw sexual consent—that they can say no to sex they don't want. The message is almost always, at least implicitly, that consent is a gendered transaction. And that has nothing to do with politics—we all know parents who have fallen into this trap and men to whom this has never occurred, even when they have been victims of sexual violence or even just bad sexual experiences themselves.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:15 AM on June 5 [23 favorites]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:15 AM on June 5 [23 favorites]
The "script" is simple - treat women as people, take no for an answer, and realize that women are just as interested in connections of all sorts as men, as long as they know they can be safe.
I have a lot more to say on the broader topic, but I want to explain: *this is not a script*.
The script many people my age grew up with is something like: “A man decides he likes a woman. He is responsible for going over to her and asking her out to a date. At early stages, it’s okay for this date to be either a movie or dinner - the easy version of dates. At later stages, after more dates, he might have to be more creative, but for a first date, a movie is fine. The man should pick up the woman in some way. He should pay for this movie or for dinner. During the date he should open doors for her and pull out her chair for her to demonstrate chivalry and that he respects her. At the end of the date, he should walk her home or to her train but in some way deliver her “home” safely. If the date has gone well, he can choose to reach out and try for a kiss. The girl may not want to kiss him; if so he needs to accept that gracefully, and call her some days later to see if she still wants another date. If she kisses him, he can assume she wants another date and can call the next day.
We may see problems with that script, but do you see how it’s a step by step approach, that gives all the tools to get from the interest in the woman to the end of the date?
“Just treat women like humans” is a proscription, not a script. It doesn’t say how the asking out happens, or who does it, or when. It doesn’t say what to do before the date, or on the date, or after the date. It assumes people “just know”. But where are they supposed to learn? They’ve been told the previous script is invalid - so what is the new one?
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on June 5 [50 favorites]
I have a lot more to say on the broader topic, but I want to explain: *this is not a script*.
The script many people my age grew up with is something like: “A man decides he likes a woman. He is responsible for going over to her and asking her out to a date. At early stages, it’s okay for this date to be either a movie or dinner - the easy version of dates. At later stages, after more dates, he might have to be more creative, but for a first date, a movie is fine. The man should pick up the woman in some way. He should pay for this movie or for dinner. During the date he should open doors for her and pull out her chair for her to demonstrate chivalry and that he respects her. At the end of the date, he should walk her home or to her train but in some way deliver her “home” safely. If the date has gone well, he can choose to reach out and try for a kiss. The girl may not want to kiss him; if so he needs to accept that gracefully, and call her some days later to see if she still wants another date. If she kisses him, he can assume she wants another date and can call the next day.
We may see problems with that script, but do you see how it’s a step by step approach, that gives all the tools to get from the interest in the woman to the end of the date?
“Just treat women like humans” is a proscription, not a script. It doesn’t say how the asking out happens, or who does it, or when. It doesn’t say what to do before the date, or on the date, or after the date. It assumes people “just know”. But where are they supposed to learn? They’ve been told the previous script is invalid - so what is the new one?
posted by corb at 10:17 AM on June 5 [50 favorites]
I think you’re on to something Frowner; unfortunately it has really pervaded offline life, so for me most of these interactions have sadly been in-person and often also with people who don’t spend a lot of time online. I don’t know if it’s specific to women in white collar professions, but I hear a lot of comments and discussion like this in my workplace and others like it.
I mean, I’ve had a whole group of highly progressive women I respect talk about how it’s okay to go through their partner’s phone because of how common cheating is among men so it’s justified and understandable. Which isn’t an example of this specific phenomenon, but the general idea of “because men do x on average, it is OK for me to treat an individual man as if he does x” even in situations that are not about safety (which is a different context). And these are women who are actively advocating with me on trans rights and anti-racism! Not just passive “well I call myself liberal” people!
posted by brook horse at 10:19 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
I mean, I’ve had a whole group of highly progressive women I respect talk about how it’s okay to go through their partner’s phone because of how common cheating is among men so it’s justified and understandable. Which isn’t an example of this specific phenomenon, but the general idea of “because men do x on average, it is OK for me to treat an individual man as if he does x” even in situations that are not about safety (which is a different context). And these are women who are actively advocating with me on trans rights and anti-racism! Not just passive “well I call myself liberal” people!
posted by brook horse at 10:19 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
See, only one side of this conversation is allowed. Everything else gets deleted! Welcome to the echo-chamber of people who think they're liberals, but are just grifters.
posted by Redfield at 10:22 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Redfield at 10:22 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
I cringed at the Emily Dickinson poem she put on his gravestone.
sockerpup, I don't want to pry, but if you feel like answering, I'd really like to know which one that was.
I keep thinking about this clip from a tumblr thread about "chronic emotional malnutrition".
This is one of the many reasons that I have not seriously considered transition as an adult. I am almost never misgendered, but when I have been -- briefly and due only to heavy winterwear -- I could sense that people were unsure whether I was a threat or not. Not in a cool way, in a "what the hell do you want" way.
It's not something I would wish on other people, but men who see a lot of strangers have to accept it every day, even more so if they are minoritized or appear homeless. Maybe it begins to explain why so many guys make asses of themselves over female customer service workers who are required to smile and be nice to them. Doesn't excuse it, of course, but still.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:24 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
sockerpup, I don't want to pry, but if you feel like answering, I'd really like to know which one that was.
I keep thinking about this clip from a tumblr thread about "chronic emotional malnutrition".
This is one of the many reasons that I have not seriously considered transition as an adult. I am almost never misgendered, but when I have been -- briefly and due only to heavy winterwear -- I could sense that people were unsure whether I was a threat or not. Not in a cool way, in a "what the hell do you want" way.
It's not something I would wish on other people, but men who see a lot of strangers have to accept it every day, even more so if they are minoritized or appear homeless. Maybe it begins to explain why so many guys make asses of themselves over female customer service workers who are required to smile and be nice to them. Doesn't excuse it, of course, but still.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:24 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Are comments getting deleted? Usually that is accompanied by a mod note.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:25 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:25 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Yes they are.
posted by hototogisu at 10:26 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by hototogisu at 10:26 AM on June 5 [1 favorite]
> See, only one side of this conversation is allowed. Everything else gets deleted!
omg i am so fascinated re: what it is that’s getting deleted. because, like, the comments that are up seem a) nuanced b) not one-sidey
(if of course the things getting deleted are about me not being sexy then it is correct to delete them, because that is a ridiculous stance to take)
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:29 AM on June 5 [11 favorites]
omg i am so fascinated re: what it is that’s getting deleted. because, like, the comments that are up seem a) nuanced b) not one-sidey
(if of course the things getting deleted are about me not being sexy then it is correct to delete them, because that is a ridiculous stance to take)
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:29 AM on June 5 [11 favorites]
Redfield, I expect the deletion was due to invoking the “angry feminists” trope, which I think was not a good choice though I understand your frustrations.
I am also tired of women coming into men’s mental health discussions and centering women’s perspectives while simultaneously claiming we are burdening them and should not expect them to “do the work” which typically refers to things no one in the discussion asked them to do. But I think this is done by many women who are neither angry nor feminists (or rather, it is not “angry feminists” driving this phenomenon). It’s just an inappropriate thing that many women do and we don’t need to lean on stereotypes to make that point.
posted by brook horse at 10:31 AM on June 5 [30 favorites]
I am also tired of women coming into men’s mental health discussions and centering women’s perspectives while simultaneously claiming we are burdening them and should not expect them to “do the work” which typically refers to things no one in the discussion asked them to do. But I think this is done by many women who are neither angry nor feminists (or rather, it is not “angry feminists” driving this phenomenon). It’s just an inappropriate thing that many women do and we don’t need to lean on stereotypes to make that point.
posted by brook horse at 10:31 AM on June 5 [30 favorites]
We may see problems with that script, but do you see how it’s a step by step approach, that gives all the tools to get from the interest in the woman to the end of the date?
And what happens when things go off script? Because the reality of scripts is that they don't give you all the tools - which is why scripts are bad, and instead you should just treat women as people and recognize that they can say no...and they can say yes. People are better served by giving them the tools to deal with all sorts of situations - not scripts that can leave them adrift when life throws them a curveball, like the lady asking the man if he'd like to see her etchings.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:34 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
And what happens when things go off script? Because the reality of scripts is that they don't give you all the tools - which is why scripts are bad, and instead you should just treat women as people and recognize that they can say no...and they can say yes. People are better served by giving them the tools to deal with all sorts of situations - not scripts that can leave them adrift when life throws them a curveball, like the lady asking the man if he'd like to see her etchings.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:34 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
I mean, I’ve had a whole group of highly progressive women I respect talk about how it’s okay to go through their partner’s phone because of how common cheating is among men so it’s justified and understandable. Which isn’t an example of this specific phenomenon, but the general idea of “because men do x on average, it is OK for me to treat an individual man as if he does x” even in situations that are not about safety (which is a different context). And these are women who are actively advocating with me on trans rights and anti-racism! Not just passive “well I call myself liberal” people!
I think that for well-meaning and mild-mannered people, especially people with low self-esteem, it's really easy to feel that other people are better than you, and therefore if there is a group of other people who are Good in some way they must always be right, or at least you should probably treat them as if they are right and just put the whole thing down to social differences because look at you, you're probably wrong and kind of garbage anyway. I think this is particularly likely to happen if you spend a lot of time in ideologically consistent spaces.
I've definitely made mistakes in life through assuming that because of people's identity or political commitments, they must be correct even when I had the strong feeling that they were wrong. I've also given myself a lot of unnecessary heartache, sometimes over things where I perceived a much stronger consensus than really existed - assuming that a bad or just unkind practice was really strongly endorsed by everyone when in fact only a few people were really into it and the others were just sort of going along. I tend to assume that if I think differently from other people, unless it's something obviously bad like they want to deport refugees, etc, I'm probably wrong.
This has shifted for me in the last couple of years. Some of that is due to aging, but I think a lot of it has been due to working as part of an on the ground mutual aid project where not only have we had serious internal disagreements but we've worked with and continue to work with other groups that we don't agree with at all in the larger sense. Also I met a couple of give-no-fucks people who somehow....do a lot of activist stuff but aren't really immersed in activist culture? And somehow this has osmosed into being able to shrug a bit and say "maybe I'm wrong" or "that's just the way it is" or "this isn't really that important, too bad", at least to myself when I'm worrying about something. Sometimes this response makes me feel bitter and old, but at least I seldom wind myself into knots about how I'm probably awful and if I resent being made to feel that I'm awful that's just a sign that I am extremely awful, etc.
Also, in this project I've had to make on the fly decisions where there isn't always a really great answer, and while I've occasionally messed things up, in general I haven't ruined anything and that has put my focus more on making the best judgement possible rather than trying to game out what is ideologically right and whether I am terrible or not.
In short, spying on people's phones on general principles is bad, it's bad even if progressives dress it up in progressive language, and while these folks may be delightful companions and good activists most of the time, it is okay to try to get your head around the belief that they should sometimes be challenged or ignored, and ignored in your heart too.
I think "online" and "highly formally ideologized" can end up being pretty similar. It's kind of like everyone is a platformist Maoist now, only about, like, whether men should get their nails done.
posted by Frowner at 10:35 AM on June 5 [19 favorites]
I think that for well-meaning and mild-mannered people, especially people with low self-esteem, it's really easy to feel that other people are better than you, and therefore if there is a group of other people who are Good in some way they must always be right, or at least you should probably treat them as if they are right and just put the whole thing down to social differences because look at you, you're probably wrong and kind of garbage anyway. I think this is particularly likely to happen if you spend a lot of time in ideologically consistent spaces.
I've definitely made mistakes in life through assuming that because of people's identity or political commitments, they must be correct even when I had the strong feeling that they were wrong. I've also given myself a lot of unnecessary heartache, sometimes over things where I perceived a much stronger consensus than really existed - assuming that a bad or just unkind practice was really strongly endorsed by everyone when in fact only a few people were really into it and the others were just sort of going along. I tend to assume that if I think differently from other people, unless it's something obviously bad like they want to deport refugees, etc, I'm probably wrong.
This has shifted for me in the last couple of years. Some of that is due to aging, but I think a lot of it has been due to working as part of an on the ground mutual aid project where not only have we had serious internal disagreements but we've worked with and continue to work with other groups that we don't agree with at all in the larger sense. Also I met a couple of give-no-fucks people who somehow....do a lot of activist stuff but aren't really immersed in activist culture? And somehow this has osmosed into being able to shrug a bit and say "maybe I'm wrong" or "that's just the way it is" or "this isn't really that important, too bad", at least to myself when I'm worrying about something. Sometimes this response makes me feel bitter and old, but at least I seldom wind myself into knots about how I'm probably awful and if I resent being made to feel that I'm awful that's just a sign that I am extremely awful, etc.
Also, in this project I've had to make on the fly decisions where there isn't always a really great answer, and while I've occasionally messed things up, in general I haven't ruined anything and that has put my focus more on making the best judgement possible rather than trying to game out what is ideologically right and whether I am terrible or not.
In short, spying on people's phones on general principles is bad, it's bad even if progressives dress it up in progressive language, and while these folks may be delightful companions and good activists most of the time, it is okay to try to get your head around the belief that they should sometimes be challenged or ignored, and ignored in your heart too.
I think "online" and "highly formally ideologized" can end up being pretty similar. It's kind of like everyone is a platformist Maoist now, only about, like, whether men should get their nails done.
posted by Frowner at 10:35 AM on June 5 [19 favorites]
The "script" is simple - treat women as people, take no for an answer, and realize that women are just as interested in connections of all sorts as men, as long as they know they can be safe.
This is all great as far as it goes, and it has certainly led me to many acquaintance-ships and friendships with women, especially women that I'm not interested in dating. I am generally better at being friends with women than with men (is that unfeminist of me? possibly!).
However, this does not naturally and automatically result in being able to date successfully. I see this sort of thing expressed a lot, on here and elsewhere ("just be a good person and relate to women as people!") and I find it pretty alienating, since in my experience it is not sufficient for dating.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:35 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
This is all great as far as it goes, and it has certainly led me to many acquaintance-ships and friendships with women, especially women that I'm not interested in dating. I am generally better at being friends with women than with men (is that unfeminist of me? possibly!).
However, this does not naturally and automatically result in being able to date successfully. I see this sort of thing expressed a lot, on here and elsewhere ("just be a good person and relate to women as people!") and I find it pretty alienating, since in my experience it is not sufficient for dating.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:35 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
why scripts are bad
sure, but that doesn't mean people don't need them, learn them, and use from them. they are how people organize what's expected of them in the world. "hi, how are you?" "fine, thanks" is a script. are people better when they can be flexible? sure. can lots of people do that all the time, even in high stakes situations? no. i get your objection but i don't think you're describing a world we really live in.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:37 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
sure, but that doesn't mean people don't need them, learn them, and use from them. they are how people organize what's expected of them in the world. "hi, how are you?" "fine, thanks" is a script. are people better when they can be flexible? sure. can lots of people do that all the time, even in high stakes situations? no. i get your objection but i don't think you're describing a world we really live in.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:37 AM on June 5 [21 favorites]
“Just treat women like humans” is a proscription, not a script.
They're people. They have preferences. The way a man can appropriately (and possibly successfully) approach a woman for a date and what that date should look like is going to vary based on how and how well he knows her. That might end up increasing the burden on men, but that burden is incidental to ensuring that women's interests, habits, emotional needs and safety are taken into account.
I suspect even back in the day when that script existed, it only ever clearly applied to men of certain cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds who were asking out women of the same cultural and socioeconomic background. If you narrow everyone's frame of reference enough, you can get to a script.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:37 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
They're people. They have preferences. The way a man can appropriately (and possibly successfully) approach a woman for a date and what that date should look like is going to vary based on how and how well he knows her. That might end up increasing the burden on men, but that burden is incidental to ensuring that women's interests, habits, emotional needs and safety are taken into account.
I suspect even back in the day when that script existed, it only ever clearly applied to men of certain cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds who were asking out women of the same cultural and socioeconomic background. If you narrow everyone's frame of reference enough, you can get to a script.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:37 AM on June 5 [8 favorites]
virtually no parent teaches boys that they, too, can give and withdraw sexual consent—that they can say no to sex they don't want. The message is almost always, at least implicitly, that consent is a gendered transaction
In my early adulthood, I’d prided myself on having an “I’ll try anything twice” outlook. I have some non-standard desires myself, and the GGGgarbage that was very much the rage at the time felt like a move in the right direction. So when a trusting partner finally shared her lifelong unfulfilled CNC fantasy to me, I agreed. Not exactly my cup of tea, but that wasn’t the point, and she had certainly indulged me in ways I doubt were her first choice. I did some reading, we had an extensive talk about what boundaries were real, hard boundaries and what boundaries she wanted to feign and for me to ignore. It was extremely important to her that it feel real. She wanted to feel scared, she wanted to fight back, and she wanted me to overpower her. That was the fantasy. If she wasn’t explicitly saying the safe word, I was explicitly instructed to ignore what she was saying and continue, any check-ins would ruin the scene.
Later that night, after a few hours of aftercare, she let me know how completely blissed out she was and thanked me for the experience. When she left, I threw up immediately and sobbed for the rest of the night, well into the next day. Full body shaking, couldn’t stop. Lost all sexual function for several weeks after that. And as I’m sitting here now remembering the look in her eyes and my fucking horror at myself in the process while everything in my brain is screaming STOP and how I kept begging to a god I didn’t believe in that she’d say the safe word and how I forced myself to continue because that’s what she’d explicitly asked but OMFG it feels 100% like I am raping a woman I care about she is fighting back what the fuck agh
Agh
I hadn’t thought about that for years. I’d done plenty of stuff I wasn’t thrilled about at other peoples’ behest before then, and generally been happy to please a partner and honored by their trust. But that’s what it took for me to actually give myself permission to say no, firmly. JFC it seems that is still a very clear memory and I think I have to leave this thread for a bit.
posted by 1024 at 10:39 AM on June 5 [57 favorites]
In my early adulthood, I’d prided myself on having an “I’ll try anything twice” outlook. I have some non-standard desires myself, and the GGGgarbage that was very much the rage at the time felt like a move in the right direction. So when a trusting partner finally shared her lifelong unfulfilled CNC fantasy to me, I agreed. Not exactly my cup of tea, but that wasn’t the point, and she had certainly indulged me in ways I doubt were her first choice. I did some reading, we had an extensive talk about what boundaries were real, hard boundaries and what boundaries she wanted to feign and for me to ignore. It was extremely important to her that it feel real. She wanted to feel scared, she wanted to fight back, and she wanted me to overpower her. That was the fantasy. If she wasn’t explicitly saying the safe word, I was explicitly instructed to ignore what she was saying and continue, any check-ins would ruin the scene.
Later that night, after a few hours of aftercare, she let me know how completely blissed out she was and thanked me for the experience. When she left, I threw up immediately and sobbed for the rest of the night, well into the next day. Full body shaking, couldn’t stop. Lost all sexual function for several weeks after that. And as I’m sitting here now remembering the look in her eyes and my fucking horror at myself in the process while everything in my brain is screaming STOP and how I kept begging to a god I didn’t believe in that she’d say the safe word and how I forced myself to continue because that’s what she’d explicitly asked but OMFG it feels 100% like I am raping a woman I care about she is fighting back what the fuck agh
Agh
I hadn’t thought about that for years. I’d done plenty of stuff I wasn’t thrilled about at other peoples’ behest before then, and generally been happy to please a partner and honored by their trust. But that’s what it took for me to actually give myself permission to say no, firmly. JFC it seems that is still a very clear memory and I think I have to leave this thread for a bit.
posted by 1024 at 10:39 AM on June 5 [57 favorites]
hey, 1024, thank you for sharing that and please take care of yourself.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:40 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:40 AM on June 5 [27 favorites]
why scripts are bad, and instead you should just treat women as people
just speaking for myself, insisting that scripts are bad is enormously unpleasant, as an autistic person, since there is a great deal of stuff out there that implicitly or explicitly act like autistic people aren't quite people, because they rely on stuff like scripts. neurotypical people rely on scripts too, they just don't realize it
posted by BungaDunga at 10:43 AM on June 5 [53 favorites]
just speaking for myself, insisting that scripts are bad is enormously unpleasant, as an autistic person, since there is a great deal of stuff out there that implicitly or explicitly act like autistic people aren't quite people, because they rely on stuff like scripts. neurotypical people rely on scripts too, they just don't realize it
posted by BungaDunga at 10:43 AM on June 5 [53 favorites]
I keep thinking about this clip from a tumblr thread about "chronic emotional malnutrition".
Yeah, I think this is a huge mess to discuss if we talk about adults because nobody got what they needed in their developmental stages, and the distribution on recovery is really uneven for the exact same reasons most distributions of anything are really uneven.
The original article above is about boys, and quality of that particular article aside I think that's important. Not adults, not men, boys. Though I think it also could have said "kids" just fine - I still had a somewhat unsympathetic initial response to that because 1) we don't necessarily know who is a boy and who isn't when we talk about young people 2) we need to tell all developing humans how to manage their own emotions and be responsive to the feelings of others using the same curriculum because that's how you avoid telling one group quietly how to shit on the other.
My understanding from parents of younger children and my teacher friends at the elementary level is that there IS some of this happening at the educational level, and increasingly showing up in para-educational environments (daycare, sunday school, afterschool care) and to some extent (unevenly, I don't doubt) extending into the home. That is a Good Thing, and I think it absolutely is a result of the hard messy discourse we have as adults with the very different culture most of us are struggling with. I'd love to see more articles about how that teaching and culture-development is being done.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:45 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Yeah, I think this is a huge mess to discuss if we talk about adults because nobody got what they needed in their developmental stages, and the distribution on recovery is really uneven for the exact same reasons most distributions of anything are really uneven.
The original article above is about boys, and quality of that particular article aside I think that's important. Not adults, not men, boys. Though I think it also could have said "kids" just fine - I still had a somewhat unsympathetic initial response to that because 1) we don't necessarily know who is a boy and who isn't when we talk about young people 2) we need to tell all developing humans how to manage their own emotions and be responsive to the feelings of others using the same curriculum because that's how you avoid telling one group quietly how to shit on the other.
My understanding from parents of younger children and my teacher friends at the elementary level is that there IS some of this happening at the educational level, and increasingly showing up in para-educational environments (daycare, sunday school, afterschool care) and to some extent (unevenly, I don't doubt) extending into the home. That is a Good Thing, and I think it absolutely is a result of the hard messy discourse we have as adults with the very different culture most of us are struggling with. I'd love to see more articles about how that teaching and culture-development is being done.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:45 AM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Has this just gotten much, much worse than when I was growing up in the 2000s?
Yeah, in the ‘90s and 2000s male role models were just famous guys who were good at stuff, actors and athletes and musicians. Teen boys quoted silly comedy movies and TV, not right wing rhetoric. For a long time, it felt like media including men’s media laughed with men about being undersexed horndogs instead of making it out to be a crisis of involuntary celibacy. And the mainstream message toward awkward lonely boys was, high school sucks but go to college and/or move to a big city, you’ll meet people like you.
Right wing guys were saying this kind of gender stuff on talk radio and then on forums like 4chan, but that wasn’t mainstream yet. Kids weren’t listening to Rush Limbaugh or watching The O’Reilly Factor or whatever, they were watching MTV and ESPN and maybe Jon Stewart.
That being said there was a lot of casual misogyny and, especially, just endless putting down of women for their looks in media aimed at young men and in mainstream comedy.
posted by smelendez at 10:47 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
Yeah, in the ‘90s and 2000s male role models were just famous guys who were good at stuff, actors and athletes and musicians. Teen boys quoted silly comedy movies and TV, not right wing rhetoric. For a long time, it felt like media including men’s media laughed with men about being undersexed horndogs instead of making it out to be a crisis of involuntary celibacy. And the mainstream message toward awkward lonely boys was, high school sucks but go to college and/or move to a big city, you’ll meet people like you.
Right wing guys were saying this kind of gender stuff on talk radio and then on forums like 4chan, but that wasn’t mainstream yet. Kids weren’t listening to Rush Limbaugh or watching The O’Reilly Factor or whatever, they were watching MTV and ESPN and maybe Jon Stewart.
That being said there was a lot of casual misogyny and, especially, just endless putting down of women for their looks in media aimed at young men and in mainstream comedy.
posted by smelendez at 10:47 AM on June 5 [17 favorites]
The original article above is about boys, and quality of that particular article aside I think that's important. Not adults, not men, boys.
boys are also considered less vulnerable than girls are much earlier in childhood. “boys will be boys” doesn’t mean boys are treated as children, and it is a gendered script that is pernicious not only because of what it teaches boys about violence and boundaries, but because it is also proof that we do not treat them like children in important ways—as vulnerable, tender, innocent, unformed.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:48 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
boys are also considered less vulnerable than girls are much earlier in childhood. “boys will be boys” doesn’t mean boys are treated as children, and it is a gendered script that is pernicious not only because of what it teaches boys about violence and boundaries, but because it is also proof that we do not treat them like children in important ways—as vulnerable, tender, innocent, unformed.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 10:48 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
I'm very much of the generation of "boys don't cry". I got relentlessly bullied in school for being the different, sick, smart and ungodfully poor kid with a dead dad in a small private Catholic school. My mom and I both got told by my teachers that "you're a good kid, but you're too sensitive - that's why they pick on you". I went through a couple of years where my default reaction to any provocation after my dad died was to throw hands, quickly, repeatedly and without regard to the fact that the kid I was swinging on was bigger than me and I was probably going to get the worst of it. (because that was way more acceptable than crying)
I grew out of that. Found companionship in structured groups - like theater, film, my fraternity, my hobby clubs, but even in my relationships with other folks I know are progressive, I'm tight as a drum because I learned those lessons when I was a kid. I learned that sharing vulnerabilities with a partner will get it used as a weapon when you argue. I learned that even very progressive women like my mom and my wife will absolutely panic if I ever express any real doubts, anxieties, etc. (I'm supposed to be a rock after all).
I use this space as a valve in ways that I can't elsewhere and even here I find that I have to be very careful about what I say to avoid being misunderstood or taken in the least charitable way.
I'd kill to walk around with the unconcerned open confidence of the "manly man" I know, but with the same ideals I have for others rights and concerns. It's hard to be blissfully confident and happy when you know there's mines all around you and it just makes me tired.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:52 AM on June 5 [31 favorites]
I grew out of that. Found companionship in structured groups - like theater, film, my fraternity, my hobby clubs, but even in my relationships with other folks I know are progressive, I'm tight as a drum because I learned those lessons when I was a kid. I learned that sharing vulnerabilities with a partner will get it used as a weapon when you argue. I learned that even very progressive women like my mom and my wife will absolutely panic if I ever express any real doubts, anxieties, etc. (I'm supposed to be a rock after all).
I use this space as a valve in ways that I can't elsewhere and even here I find that I have to be very careful about what I say to avoid being misunderstood or taken in the least charitable way.
I'd kill to walk around with the unconcerned open confidence of the "manly man" I know, but with the same ideals I have for others rights and concerns. It's hard to be blissfully confident and happy when you know there's mines all around you and it just makes me tired.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:52 AM on June 5 [31 favorites]
I mean, I’ve had a whole group of highly progressive women I respect talk about how it’s okay to go through their partner’s phone because of how common cheating is among men so it’s justified and understandable.
They're wrong, they're using their ideology to "justify" their frankly abusive behavior, and they need to be called out on it. (And frankly, that's the sort of thing that should make you lose all respect for those individuals.) Being "progressive" doesn't mean someone can't be an abuser (and there's a lot of history of predators using the "progressive" label to camouflage themselves.)
just speaking for myself, insisting that scripts are bad is enormously unpleasant
This is fair, and calling scripts bad was wrong on my part, because they are useful tools (as you point out!) My point is that scripts are ultimately limited tools, and as such the goal should be to get someone to the point where they don't need to rely on them as such, because they have other tools that let them handle unforseen situations.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:53 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
They're wrong, they're using their ideology to "justify" their frankly abusive behavior, and they need to be called out on it. (And frankly, that's the sort of thing that should make you lose all respect for those individuals.) Being "progressive" doesn't mean someone can't be an abuser (and there's a lot of history of predators using the "progressive" label to camouflage themselves.)
just speaking for myself, insisting that scripts are bad is enormously unpleasant
This is fair, and calling scripts bad was wrong on my part, because they are useful tools (as you point out!) My point is that scripts are ultimately limited tools, and as such the goal should be to get someone to the point where they don't need to rely on them as such, because they have other tools that let them handle unforseen situations.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:53 AM on June 5 [12 favorites]
I think maybe another way of thinking about things w/r/t scripts is that it's probably not wise to approach someone with the "I'd like to date you" script . I've started to try opening with a more abstract "I'd like to get to know you" script with appropriate branches for if some sparks seem to be developing, or if this person would do better as a friend, or a distant memory, whatever.
I am not neurotypical and I discovered pretty early on that scripts I learned weren't working for me, or if they were they weren't giving me what I actually desired because they were too generic to be useful. Part of the problem here is that people - and especially men - are not given much grace to fail publicly. I'd imagine that part of the reason people stick to the scripts that don't work is because they're broadly considered acceptable by the community. It takes courage to swing and miss and yet more to try again. It's exhausting work and it requires support and care to continue to push yourself through it.
It honestly feels pretty similar to my unpacking of my internalized homophobia (which makes enough sense, stepped as it was in toxic masculinity) - figuring out what part of me is "me" versus which part of me was put there by someone else required years of therapy and an extremely strong support system that helped validate that despite stumbling I was on the right path.
If boys and men today are saying they don't feel like they have those things, I don't see the point in arguing with them that they should - even if they ostensibly have access to them through feminist spaces or whatever. Regardless of the reason why, this group that desperately needs support to work through some extremely difficult psychological knots do not feel like they are being given what they need to do it.
posted by gee_the_riot at 11:06 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
I am not neurotypical and I discovered pretty early on that scripts I learned weren't working for me, or if they were they weren't giving me what I actually desired because they were too generic to be useful. Part of the problem here is that people - and especially men - are not given much grace to fail publicly. I'd imagine that part of the reason people stick to the scripts that don't work is because they're broadly considered acceptable by the community. It takes courage to swing and miss and yet more to try again. It's exhausting work and it requires support and care to continue to push yourself through it.
It honestly feels pretty similar to my unpacking of my internalized homophobia (which makes enough sense, stepped as it was in toxic masculinity) - figuring out what part of me is "me" versus which part of me was put there by someone else required years of therapy and an extremely strong support system that helped validate that despite stumbling I was on the right path.
If boys and men today are saying they don't feel like they have those things, I don't see the point in arguing with them that they should - even if they ostensibly have access to them through feminist spaces or whatever. Regardless of the reason why, this group that desperately needs support to work through some extremely difficult psychological knots do not feel like they are being given what they need to do it.
posted by gee_the_riot at 11:06 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
METAFILTER: the intellectual equivalent of Andrew Tate insisting that it's gay to spend social time with women.
... but seriously, this is a good thread. Lots of listening going on. Thanks to all involved.
posted by philip-random at 11:08 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
... but seriously, this is a good thread. Lots of listening going on. Thanks to all involved.
posted by philip-random at 11:08 AM on June 5 [2 favorites]
Presumably, the men are doing leftist, feminist work? I'd consider myself both of those.
I'm totally with you here and consider myself the same. But my take is that it sounds too much like a "not all men" appeal and that doesn't further our shared goals.
FWIW, as much as I 100% welcome any all contributions to this cause and will take any opportunity to back anyone else that steps up, I firmly believe this on men, including or especially men like us, to solve. Basically every other demographic group you care to mention is a victim of toxic masculinity and it doesn't feel right for me to ask victims to solve the cause of that victimization (victim might be too strong here but I hope you get what I mean). But taking the lead doesn't exactly feel right either.
We're men, this is our problem to deal with so I'll muddle my through as best I can with open ears and open minds. And often things become much clearer in any specific situation anyways.
posted by VTX at 11:09 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
I'm totally with you here and consider myself the same. But my take is that it sounds too much like a "not all men" appeal and that doesn't further our shared goals.
FWIW, as much as I 100% welcome any all contributions to this cause and will take any opportunity to back anyone else that steps up, I firmly believe this on men, including or especially men like us, to solve. Basically every other demographic group you care to mention is a victim of toxic masculinity and it doesn't feel right for me to ask victims to solve the cause of that victimization (victim might be too strong here but I hope you get what I mean). But taking the lead doesn't exactly feel right either.
We're men, this is our problem to deal with so I'll muddle my through as best I can with open ears and open minds. And often things become much clearer in any specific situation anyways.
posted by VTX at 11:09 AM on June 5 [3 favorites]
They're wrong, they're using their ideology to "justify" their frankly abusive behavior, and they need to be called out on it. (And frankly, that's the sort of thing that should make you lose all respect for those individuals.) Being "progressive" doesn't mean someone can't be an abuser (and there's a lot of history of predators using the "progressive" label to camouflage themselves.)
I agree and I did call it out, which helped them realize that it was coming from a place of fear and past experiences being projected onto current partners and propped up by social narratives. Perspectives changed. On some level they already recognized it wasn’t really okay but thought that the “reality” of dating as a woman necessitated it. There is a lot of inappropriate behavior women are taught to do in their relationships because “men are like x” and many people have not ever thought to examine or unlearn that. That does not make them immediately and forever Evil Predators Camouflaging As Progressives.
It did impact my respect for them, but their response to it being called out and willingness to self-reflect and change was more important to building that back up. Regardless, this is an example of how progressives can still internalize harmful ideals around gender even if it’s in contradiction to their principles, which causes them to engage in harmful behavior.
posted by brook horse at 11:10 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
I agree and I did call it out, which helped them realize that it was coming from a place of fear and past experiences being projected onto current partners and propped up by social narratives. Perspectives changed. On some level they already recognized it wasn’t really okay but thought that the “reality” of dating as a woman necessitated it. There is a lot of inappropriate behavior women are taught to do in their relationships because “men are like x” and many people have not ever thought to examine or unlearn that. That does not make them immediately and forever Evil Predators Camouflaging As Progressives.
It did impact my respect for them, but their response to it being called out and willingness to self-reflect and change was more important to building that back up. Regardless, this is an example of how progressives can still internalize harmful ideals around gender even if it’s in contradiction to their principles, which causes them to engage in harmful behavior.
posted by brook horse at 11:10 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
It's hard to be blissfully confident and happy when you know there's mines all around you and it just makes me tired.
So rare to see a dude just flat out say they share what is basically exactly my entire lifelong experience being a woman, and thank you for this! I am sorry the women in your immediate life are not ready to hear that and see the parallels.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:12 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
So rare to see a dude just flat out say they share what is basically exactly my entire lifelong experience being a woman, and thank you for this! I am sorry the women in your immediate life are not ready to hear that and see the parallels.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:12 AM on June 5 [18 favorites]
1024, if you can remember the title of the book you mentioned that was so helpful to you, I'd love to know.
posted by orrnyereg at 11:13 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 11:13 AM on June 5 [7 favorites]
Has this just gotten much, much worse than when I was growing up in the 2000s?
Yeah, in the ‘90s and 2000s male role models were just famous guys who were good at stuff, actors and athletes and musicians. Teen boys quoted silly comedy movies and TV, not right wing rhetoric.. I consumed most of this as a teenager/young adult, and never understood the dynamics that were being portrayed. I won't say that the messages are as bad as say, Tate, but the groundwork is there, and because they are wrapped up deep inside COOL ACTION HERO I think in some ways they are worse.
I have mixed feelings about this. I think definitely there's more shitty rhetoric out in the open, it's more blatant and pervasive. But the shitty messages have always been there. Pop Culture Detective has some good videos deconstructing messages about masculinity in movies/TV shows, and this one hit me particularly hard Predatory Romance in Harrison Ford Movies (cw rape, abuse, misogyny)
posted by Gorgik at 11:16 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
Yeah, in the ‘90s and 2000s male role models were just famous guys who were good at stuff, actors and athletes and musicians. Teen boys quoted silly comedy movies and TV, not right wing rhetoric.. I consumed most of this as a teenager/young adult, and never understood the dynamics that were being portrayed. I won't say that the messages are as bad as say, Tate, but the groundwork is there, and because they are wrapped up deep inside COOL ACTION HERO I think in some ways they are worse.
I have mixed feelings about this. I think definitely there's more shitty rhetoric out in the open, it's more blatant and pervasive. But the shitty messages have always been there. Pop Culture Detective has some good videos deconstructing messages about masculinity in movies/TV shows, and this one hit me particularly hard Predatory Romance in Harrison Ford Movies (cw rape, abuse, misogyny)
posted by Gorgik at 11:16 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
We're men, this is our problem to deal with
and once you were boys and did not get the help you needed or the tools you needed and it wasn’t just the adult men in your lives who failed you.
and, again, we keep talking about men in this thread and not boys.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 11:17 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
and once you were boys and did not get the help you needed or the tools you needed and it wasn’t just the adult men in your lives who failed you.
and, again, we keep talking about men in this thread and not boys.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 11:17 AM on June 5 [14 favorites]
So rare to see a dude just flat out say they share what is basically exactly my entire lifelong experience being a woman, and thank you for this! I am sorry the women in your immediate life are not ready to hear that and see the parallels.Thanks for seeing that. I know the mines are different and except for those in the dominant class position, completely non-optional. The nonchalantly unconcerned manly man types don't see them and don't feel them except in rare cases.
I really do hope for the current generation of boys that they're given the tools and the social acceptance to use them because I'd like for the world to be a better place. That's really the core of my progressivism.
Life is hard, cold and mean and the only way we get through it is by extending kindness to each other. I can't know what it is to be of a different race, gender or orientation, but I can know pain. If you can find a way to make your world a little brighter (with enthusiastic consent and not at the expense of others), I can't fault you for it even if I don't always understand.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:26 AM on June 5 [9 favorites]
Thank you for the reminder knock my socks and i’ll clean your clock.
Seems an appropriate time to share a song that has resonated with me since I was a child. Boys (Lesson One) - Jars of Clay. In case it resonates with anyone else, especially those who have shared their experiences with boyhood.
posted by brook horse at 11:30 AM on June 5
Seems an appropriate time to share a song that has resonated with me since I was a child. Boys (Lesson One) - Jars of Clay. In case it resonates with anyone else, especially those who have shared their experiences with boyhood.
posted by brook horse at 11:30 AM on June 5
Samaritans* by Idles
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, just lie
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, don't whine
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
The mask
Of masculinity
Is a mask
A mask that's wearing me
The mask, the mask, the mask
I'm a real boy
Boy, and I cry
I like myself
And I want to try
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father
Yeah
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, just lie
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, don't whine
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
The mask
Of masculinity
Is a mask
A mask that's wearing me
The mask, the mask, the mask
I'm a real boy
Boy and I cry
I love myself
And I want to try
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father
I kissed a boy and I liked it
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, don't whine
This is why
This is why
This is why
This is why
This is why
This is why
*Samaritans is also the name of a UK charity dealing with suicide and emotional distress.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:37 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, just lie
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, don't whine
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
The mask
Of masculinity
Is a mask
A mask that's wearing me
The mask, the mask, the mask
I'm a real boy
Boy, and I cry
I like myself
And I want to try
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father
Yeah
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, just lie
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, don't whine
"Grow some balls, " he said
"Grow some balls"
The mask
Of masculinity
Is a mask
A mask that's wearing me
The mask, the mask, the mask
I'm a real boy
Boy and I cry
I love myself
And I want to try
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father cry
This is why you never see your father
I kissed a boy and I liked it
Man up, sit down
Chin up, pipe down
Socks up, don't cry
Drink up, don't whine
This is why
This is why
This is why
This is why
This is why
This is why
*Samaritans is also the name of a UK charity dealing with suicide and emotional distress.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:37 AM on June 5 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure if this was discussed up-thread (I skimmed a lot) but I'd like to add another bit from personal experience of how progressive ideals can inadvertently work to silence men (and boys).
One of the goals for progressive men is to acknowledge our privilege. As a straight, white, able-bodied man, I've pretty much hit the privilege jackpot. Thousands of years of societal norms have worked to my benefit. On paper, I have it all - a beautiful family, great kids, a good job.
Because of that, the progressive ideals I have been instilled with -- and which have been communicated to me repeatedly over the years -- send the message that no one wants to hear about my stresses and anxieties and sadness and loneliness. I've got it so much better than people in marginalized communities, so it seems ridiculous and egocentric to ever complain. I've even avoided therapy for the same reason, because of the thought that I should just acknowledge my privileges and shut the hell up.
I can't say that any progressive women in my life have expressly told me not to complain, but at the same time, I am rarely asked my thoughts or feelings about things. And (as was mentioned upthread) I don't want to be perceived as a man taking up too much space, so I just keep quiet.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:52 AM on June 5 [51 favorites]
One of the goals for progressive men is to acknowledge our privilege. As a straight, white, able-bodied man, I've pretty much hit the privilege jackpot. Thousands of years of societal norms have worked to my benefit. On paper, I have it all - a beautiful family, great kids, a good job.
Because of that, the progressive ideals I have been instilled with -- and which have been communicated to me repeatedly over the years -- send the message that no one wants to hear about my stresses and anxieties and sadness and loneliness. I've got it so much better than people in marginalized communities, so it seems ridiculous and egocentric to ever complain. I've even avoided therapy for the same reason, because of the thought that I should just acknowledge my privileges and shut the hell up.
I can't say that any progressive women in my life have expressly told me not to complain, but at the same time, I am rarely asked my thoughts or feelings about things. And (as was mentioned upthread) I don't want to be perceived as a man taking up too much space, so I just keep quiet.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 11:52 AM on June 5 [51 favorites]
I think maybe another way of thinking about things w/r/t scripts is that it's probably not wise to approach someone with the "I'd like to date you" script . I've started to try opening with a more abstract "I'd like to get to know you" script with appropriate branches for if some sparks seem to be developing, or if this person would do better as a friend, or a distant memory, whatever.
This is advice I see a lot, but (1) it doesn’t work for how everyone experiences romantic attraction, and (2) it is actively upsetting for many people and so is often advised *against*.
First, for some of us it’s not “wait to see if sparks fly”, it’s “the sparks may blind us and they are happening right now.” The experience of “love at first sight” may seem made up to some, but I promise “extreme limerance” is how some of your fellow humans (especially sometimes neurodivergent humans) experience the world. I fell head over heels in love with my current partner in about ten minutes to the point where every moment I didn’t know whether my feelings were returned was actively painful. The idea of trying to conceal my strong attraction would have felt actively and viscerally dishonest to the point that I shudder to even think about it. I can’t even imagine having to mask in order to conceal them for some nebulous and unknown “getting to know you” period of time, and would have absolutely needed 100% explicit instructions in order to know how many days I needed to wait to get to the next step, then been functionally useless for the intervening time.
Secondly: I don’t know when this changed for others, but something I’m familiar with among many women is specifically frustration at men approaching them “for friendship” when they actually already know that they want to date them. I share that frustration- I would much rather be asked up front so it’s out of the way and off the table, rather than have a relationship where the other person is actively concealing something from me. It leaves me feeling gaslit and unhappy and doubting my own perception that the person is interested and my own perceptions overall, and with no appropriate way of telling them they’re wasting their time when they haven’t broached the subject.
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
This is advice I see a lot, but (1) it doesn’t work for how everyone experiences romantic attraction, and (2) it is actively upsetting for many people and so is often advised *against*.
First, for some of us it’s not “wait to see if sparks fly”, it’s “the sparks may blind us and they are happening right now.” The experience of “love at first sight” may seem made up to some, but I promise “extreme limerance” is how some of your fellow humans (especially sometimes neurodivergent humans) experience the world. I fell head over heels in love with my current partner in about ten minutes to the point where every moment I didn’t know whether my feelings were returned was actively painful. The idea of trying to conceal my strong attraction would have felt actively and viscerally dishonest to the point that I shudder to even think about it. I can’t even imagine having to mask in order to conceal them for some nebulous and unknown “getting to know you” period of time, and would have absolutely needed 100% explicit instructions in order to know how many days I needed to wait to get to the next step, then been functionally useless for the intervening time.
Secondly: I don’t know when this changed for others, but something I’m familiar with among many women is specifically frustration at men approaching them “for friendship” when they actually already know that they want to date them. I share that frustration- I would much rather be asked up front so it’s out of the way and off the table, rather than have a relationship where the other person is actively concealing something from me. It leaves me feeling gaslit and unhappy and doubting my own perception that the person is interested and my own perceptions overall, and with no appropriate way of telling them they’re wasting their time when they haven’t broached the subject.
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on June 5 [5 favorites]
I'm late to this thread and haven't read all of the discussion (but have read a bit), and my overall take is that while it's a shame the article in the FPP focuses on progressivism (since there is clearly lots of forces at play), what is true (and demonstrated in this thread) is that any suggestion that boys and young adult men are in crisis and are deserving of special care in this moment does get a lot of pushback/eye-rolls from progressives. And that's a problem.
My own experience: I taught in college classrooms from 2012–2023. Across several divides - class, race, etc. the male students on the whole struggled compared to their female peers. Even in 2012 this was noticeable, but it became more so as time went on - which is to say, if you're basing your views on your own experience growing up in the 90s/00s, you're a bit dated. The young adult men in my classroom struggled more not just in terms of academics, but also socially - they would be less likely to have friends with them in the classroom, more likely to sit quietly in the back of the classroom all term. I'm a woman, but I've talked with male colleagues, and they've noticed the same thing so it's not like these young men in my classroom were shy just in front of female authority figures.
But then what's a bit hard to square is that while the quiet/sad/academic struggling students in my classroom were mostly male, so too were the highly entitled/rude/conversation monopolizers. Not surprisingly, the students belonging to this latter camp were mostly white. Young men seem to exist in the extremes, and I think it's easy to overlook those that are struggling when brash overconfident young men still exist and are quite comfortable proclaiming their "greatness." The one's who are really struggling tend to be much less vocal.
posted by coffeecat at 12:02 PM on June 5 [57 favorites]
My own experience: I taught in college classrooms from 2012–2023. Across several divides - class, race, etc. the male students on the whole struggled compared to their female peers. Even in 2012 this was noticeable, but it became more so as time went on - which is to say, if you're basing your views on your own experience growing up in the 90s/00s, you're a bit dated. The young adult men in my classroom struggled more not just in terms of academics, but also socially - they would be less likely to have friends with them in the classroom, more likely to sit quietly in the back of the classroom all term. I'm a woman, but I've talked with male colleagues, and they've noticed the same thing so it's not like these young men in my classroom were shy just in front of female authority figures.
But then what's a bit hard to square is that while the quiet/sad/academic struggling students in my classroom were mostly male, so too were the highly entitled/rude/conversation monopolizers. Not surprisingly, the students belonging to this latter camp were mostly white. Young men seem to exist in the extremes, and I think it's easy to overlook those that are struggling when brash overconfident young men still exist and are quite comfortable proclaiming their "greatness." The one's who are really struggling tend to be much less vocal.
posted by coffeecat at 12:02 PM on June 5 [57 favorites]
Fair points, corb. What I meant to do (and realize now in retrospect I did not) was to offer another perspective not try to be prescriptivist about the correct path forward. Like I said, I am also neuroatypical and personally found myself extremely frustrated with the fact that the scripts I was taught seemed completely divorced from who I was or what I want that even when they went "right" I ended up nowhere closer to a relationship I'd want.
Ultimately I was trying to argue for a plurality of ways of engaging with each other, and while I personally would be extremely put off by anyone that came up to me and immediately made it clear that they were interested in dating me, it's clear that that isn't universal.
posted by gee_the_riot at 12:15 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
Ultimately I was trying to argue for a plurality of ways of engaging with each other, and while I personally would be extremely put off by anyone that came up to me and immediately made it clear that they were interested in dating me, it's clear that that isn't universal.
posted by gee_the_riot at 12:15 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
Coffeecat, i’m extremely interested in the problem you described, both as an educator and as someone who, as a teenage boy, experienced some bruising because of this dichotomy. I think some of my teachers read my academic struggles, disengagement and escapist tendencies (which began manifesting after my parents’ divorce) as arrogance, laziness and entitlement, when in fact i was struggling with grief, bullying and low self esteem. The fact that i was a tall, blond, middle-class (albeit precariously) male might have confounded a lot of well-intentioned adults who were trained to look elsewhere for signs of distress.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:28 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:28 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Because of that, the progressive ideals I have been instilled with -- and which have been communicated to me repeatedly over the years -- send the message that no one wants to hear about my stresses and anxieties and sadness and loneliness.
This is a very unhealthy take. First of all, a therapist absolutely does want to hear all about your stresses, anxieties, sadness, and loneliness. That's what they're there for.
Outside of therapists, relating to someone else is a two-way street. As long as you're sincere and you take the time to see things from their perspective, you shouldn't have a problem even if you live a privileged life. When people say you should acknowledge your privileges and shut up, that's usually a sign that you either weren't considerate enough of someone else's relative lack of privilege or you aren't seeing that your privilege provides solutions that are unavailable to others.
Don't "complain down".
Do find common ground and be relatable.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:43 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
This is a very unhealthy take. First of all, a therapist absolutely does want to hear all about your stresses, anxieties, sadness, and loneliness. That's what they're there for.
Outside of therapists, relating to someone else is a two-way street. As long as you're sincere and you take the time to see things from their perspective, you shouldn't have a problem even if you live a privileged life. When people say you should acknowledge your privileges and shut up, that's usually a sign that you either weren't considerate enough of someone else's relative lack of privilege or you aren't seeing that your privilege provides solutions that are unavailable to others.
Don't "complain down".
Do find common ground and be relatable.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:43 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
So... basically, don't complain in interpersonal relationships due to structural privilege, and always be self-abnegating in assuming that your problems aren't actually real, and are just your own misunderstanding/could have already been solved?
posted by sagc at 12:45 PM on June 5 [25 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:45 PM on June 5 [25 favorites]
I would say that that is generally good advice for an adult man. I think I would have seriously struggled to apply it as a teenage boy.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:46 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:46 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
Not sure who you're replying to ducky l'orange, but that's pretty much what I was getting at (in what I'll admit is a somewhat reductive way). If it's coming from authority figures or people who are held up as examples of progressivism to be emulated, it's hard to find a way through that doesn't make you feel like you're inherently flawed.
posted by sagc at 12:49 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:49 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Late to the thread and can only speak to my personal experience, but here goes.
In my life, the only people that ever told me to not express feelings and to be a man were other men, almost exclusively except for one girl in my high school years.
My father demonstrated that it was a man’s job to just get up and walk away when any conversation could produce outcomes. He would leave the house every time there was an argument, even if it was just about leaving the stove on. I’ll never forget him saying to me, “it’s better to shut up and walk away than hurt a woman.” I never saw my dad as particularly menacing but the anger on that statement stuck with me and changed how I saw my mother. After all, she must’ve done something to make him that mad, right? Right?
In my later years of childhood after the divorce, my dad would spend most of his time laying on the couch doing nothing. At the time I took it as my dad being irreparably harmed by the divorce. So I never blamed him for not playing with me, taking me fishing, or any other activity that dads should do. Wasn’t even his fault for not talking to me. It wasn’t until high school that I put two and two together that he was a terrible dad and a bad role model.
I took that first lesson everywhere. I was angry about the divorce but I didn’t know it. I just kept quiet instead of saying how I felt. So grade school was full of violent attacks against me, because other angry boys had to be angry at someone else. I had 7 concussions from 3rd to 7th grade. For no other reason it felt because being quiet made me a target. Or that’s what the teachers said in several meetings over the years. The other boys would call me variations of female genitalia and other things. It wasn’t until 8th grade that I fought back. But not at other kids, I almost killed my stepdad because he was a hateful drunk that broke my feet by running them over with a truck, my wrist by twisting it the wrong way, and my spirit over a 6 year period, all because as he put it, I was “a pansy”.
In high school I calmed down, a bit, until 3 quarters of the year later I had endured a whole different group of boys thought I was gay, but not in such nice terms. The rest of my high school years were filled with constant violence to and from myself, almost always centered around being told to “man up” or several negative names for women. Never got in trouble for anything of course, boys will be boys they said. It didn’t matter that we were all so aggressive that we’d brawl with the football team during their practices and I gave the captain of the wrestling team a concussion because as I put it “he looked girly in that unitard”.
The one single instance of emasculation I can attribute to a girl was actually my girlfriend at the time. She called me a girl because I didn’t want to put my beer down and fight some random guy. Which of course I ended up doing anyway.
But as I got older, joined the ARMY and afterward, the only people that told me to be a man was other men. I mellowed out eventually. I went to therapy and put names to these crappy things I did and crappy ways I felt. But looking back, the only people who ever asked me how I was feeling were my mother, grandmother, sister, my best friends mother, and my therapist. All women. Never once has a man ever asked me if I was okay. All I’ve ever heard is jokes any time I ever brought up feelings. I’m not innocent of this either. Just 2 days ago a cycling buddy of mine asked if I was his friend and my response was to ask if he was drinking. Reading through some of this thread did make me reach out but that’s not the norm.
Looking back at my rambling I wonder if had someone spoke with my dad or stepfather, would my life had been different? If someone made me talk instead of shutting out those who asked would I have been so shitty? Yeah I learned later and try to keep myself to the cycle of change but… I feel it’s still too late for me. I needed these lessons as a kid. I needed my dad to talk to me. I needed to listen to my mother. She’s not a leftist but she could see I was struggling. If more men would’ve told me talking is okay, my life could’ve been different. The negative impact I had on others could’ve been smaller. I say men because that’s who I was listening to.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:51 PM on June 5 [34 favorites]
In my life, the only people that ever told me to not express feelings and to be a man were other men, almost exclusively except for one girl in my high school years.
My father demonstrated that it was a man’s job to just get up and walk away when any conversation could produce outcomes. He would leave the house every time there was an argument, even if it was just about leaving the stove on. I’ll never forget him saying to me, “it’s better to shut up and walk away than hurt a woman.” I never saw my dad as particularly menacing but the anger on that statement stuck with me and changed how I saw my mother. After all, she must’ve done something to make him that mad, right? Right?
In my later years of childhood after the divorce, my dad would spend most of his time laying on the couch doing nothing. At the time I took it as my dad being irreparably harmed by the divorce. So I never blamed him for not playing with me, taking me fishing, or any other activity that dads should do. Wasn’t even his fault for not talking to me. It wasn’t until high school that I put two and two together that he was a terrible dad and a bad role model.
I took that first lesson everywhere. I was angry about the divorce but I didn’t know it. I just kept quiet instead of saying how I felt. So grade school was full of violent attacks against me, because other angry boys had to be angry at someone else. I had 7 concussions from 3rd to 7th grade. For no other reason it felt because being quiet made me a target. Or that’s what the teachers said in several meetings over the years. The other boys would call me variations of female genitalia and other things. It wasn’t until 8th grade that I fought back. But not at other kids, I almost killed my stepdad because he was a hateful drunk that broke my feet by running them over with a truck, my wrist by twisting it the wrong way, and my spirit over a 6 year period, all because as he put it, I was “a pansy”.
In high school I calmed down, a bit, until 3 quarters of the year later I had endured a whole different group of boys thought I was gay, but not in such nice terms. The rest of my high school years were filled with constant violence to and from myself, almost always centered around being told to “man up” or several negative names for women. Never got in trouble for anything of course, boys will be boys they said. It didn’t matter that we were all so aggressive that we’d brawl with the football team during their practices and I gave the captain of the wrestling team a concussion because as I put it “he looked girly in that unitard”.
The one single instance of emasculation I can attribute to a girl was actually my girlfriend at the time. She called me a girl because I didn’t want to put my beer down and fight some random guy. Which of course I ended up doing anyway.
But as I got older, joined the ARMY and afterward, the only people that told me to be a man was other men. I mellowed out eventually. I went to therapy and put names to these crappy things I did and crappy ways I felt. But looking back, the only people who ever asked me how I was feeling were my mother, grandmother, sister, my best friends mother, and my therapist. All women. Never once has a man ever asked me if I was okay. All I’ve ever heard is jokes any time I ever brought up feelings. I’m not innocent of this either. Just 2 days ago a cycling buddy of mine asked if I was his friend and my response was to ask if he was drinking. Reading through some of this thread did make me reach out but that’s not the norm.
Looking back at my rambling I wonder if had someone spoke with my dad or stepfather, would my life had been different? If someone made me talk instead of shutting out those who asked would I have been so shitty? Yeah I learned later and try to keep myself to the cycle of change but… I feel it’s still too late for me. I needed these lessons as a kid. I needed my dad to talk to me. I needed to listen to my mother. She’s not a leftist but she could see I was struggling. If more men would’ve told me talking is okay, my life could’ve been different. The negative impact I had on others could’ve been smaller. I say men because that’s who I was listening to.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:51 PM on June 5 [34 favorites]
This is a very unhealthy take.
Yes, that's my point.
When people say you should acknowledge your privileges and shut up, that's usually a sign that you either weren't considerate enough of someone else's relative lack of privilege or you aren't seeing that your privilege provides solutions that are unavailable to others.
I'm not saying people have said that to my face. I'm saying that it's a message that I have internalized by being active in progressive politics my entire life (and more fundamentally just trying not to be a jerk). There's an internal voice saying "no one cares that your job is stressful when many people don't even have a job and you should just consider yourself lucky to have one at all." So I don't say anything.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:52 PM on June 5 [29 favorites]
Yes, that's my point.
When people say you should acknowledge your privileges and shut up, that's usually a sign that you either weren't considerate enough of someone else's relative lack of privilege or you aren't seeing that your privilege provides solutions that are unavailable to others.
I'm not saying people have said that to my face. I'm saying that it's a message that I have internalized by being active in progressive politics my entire life (and more fundamentally just trying not to be a jerk). There's an internal voice saying "no one cares that your job is stressful when many people don't even have a job and you should just consider yourself lucky to have one at all." So I don't say anything.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:52 PM on June 5 [29 favorites]
yeah the fact that this has defaulted to talking about adult men and how they should take responsibility for themselves and not about boys, which is what the article is about, might be proof of the extent of the problem.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 1:03 PM on June 5 [14 favorites]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 1:03 PM on June 5 [14 favorites]
Can confirm article personally. Living in a foreign country with wife and child, have never been so lonely and miserable in all my life at the age of 50. Growing up as a ethnic minority I became happier once racism abated and things opened up, only to feel leap-frogged as attention (not unreasonably, at all) went straight to women. Churlish and entitled to complain so I just spend all my time online and alone, apart from family responsibilities which I take extremely seriously. Honestly I would welcome swift terminal cancer right now.
posted by bookbook at 1:04 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by bookbook at 1:04 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Nobody should be engaging with anything that the NYT publishes about gender. At this point there is overwhelming evidence that their goals are regressive, antifeminist, and transphobic.
One thing I will say about the article is that this anecdotal perspective from a 20-year-old man:
[I]t was the boys who seemed the most desperately lonely and isolated. On the site, he said, he found “a lot more unhealthy men than unhealthy women.”
Does not seem to align with the actual research on the subject of gender disparities in adolescent depression, which shows that although rates of depression increased from 2009 to 2019 among both girls and boys, the percentage change was larger for girls (12.0%) than boys (3.7%).
Rates of sexual violence against teenage girls have also increased dramatically. The CDC reported that the number of teenage girls who have experienced sexual violence increased by 20% between 2017 and 2021. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that a lot of this sexual violence teenage girls are experiencing is being perpetrated by their male peers (and often enabled and intensified by technology — see, the many stories of teenage boys spreading revenge porn or making deepfake porn of their female peers).
The decrease in young men's mental health is perceived as a crisis of civilizational import. However, the even greater decrease in young women's mental health and physical wellbeing is not treated with nearly the same level of seriousness and thinkpieceing, even when the stats are there to back it up. Why?
posted by cultanthropologist at 1:08 PM on June 5 [20 favorites]
One thing I will say about the article is that this anecdotal perspective from a 20-year-old man:
[I]t was the boys who seemed the most desperately lonely and isolated. On the site, he said, he found “a lot more unhealthy men than unhealthy women.”
Does not seem to align with the actual research on the subject of gender disparities in adolescent depression, which shows that although rates of depression increased from 2009 to 2019 among both girls and boys, the percentage change was larger for girls (12.0%) than boys (3.7%).
Rates of sexual violence against teenage girls have also increased dramatically. The CDC reported that the number of teenage girls who have experienced sexual violence increased by 20% between 2017 and 2021. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that a lot of this sexual violence teenage girls are experiencing is being perpetrated by their male peers (and often enabled and intensified by technology — see, the many stories of teenage boys spreading revenge porn or making deepfake porn of their female peers).
The decrease in young men's mental health is perceived as a crisis of civilizational import. However, the even greater decrease in young women's mental health and physical wellbeing is not treated with nearly the same level of seriousness and thinkpieceing, even when the stats are there to back it up. Why?
posted by cultanthropologist at 1:08 PM on June 5 [20 favorites]
Growing up in the south, to me there was an undercurrent of violence constantly present in the culture. Like there was a friend of a friend who was stabbed in the chest, but went on to beat down his attacker. Bars that were way to dangerous to visit. Police who pulled kids out of their car and beat the tar out of them. Disagreements that were 'taken outside'. Fag bashing. Insulting 'joking' banter between coworkers. And of course bullying, even among adults.
This is the kind of thing young men have to deal with in male culture, a culture that responds to vulnerability with ridicule and the prospect of physical violence. To me emotional distance among men is no mystery.
In adulthood, its compounded by our silo oriented culture with its lack of third spaces.
Feminist or progressive rhetoric has mostly not been on my radar emotionally. I do think there are a lot of miserable men out there and that a lot of male culture sucks. Maybe its basically generational trauma from western culture with its history of constant warfare.
posted by Ansible at 1:09 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
This is the kind of thing young men have to deal with in male culture, a culture that responds to vulnerability with ridicule and the prospect of physical violence. To me emotional distance among men is no mystery.
In adulthood, its compounded by our silo oriented culture with its lack of third spaces.
Feminist or progressive rhetoric has mostly not been on my radar emotionally. I do think there are a lot of miserable men out there and that a lot of male culture sucks. Maybe its basically generational trauma from western culture with its history of constant warfare.
posted by Ansible at 1:09 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Sorry to hear that ducky l'orange, but not terribly surprised. In graduate school while a TA (2012-2019), it was common when getting together with peers over drinks for the subject of "students these days" to come up. Most of my circle were progressive millennials, with a few younger Gen Xers. Compared to the faculty, on the whole we were more sympathetic to students with learning disabilities, mental health struggles, more cognizant about how first-gen/racial identities could impact a student's experience in the classroom, etc. But there was a general lament of "Man, why do so many of the male students suck?" or "Thank god my discussion sessions this semester are mostly women" - Again, good to keep in mind these were private conversations over drinks, but I do think on the whole, myself (at least initially) and many of my peers had less sympathy for struggling male students. Of course, if a male student opened up and said "Hey, I was struggling in class because I was really depressed but I'm on meds now and is there anything I can do to still pass the class" I think people would react a lot different, but obviously not every student that's struggling gets to that point. All that said, when I talk of overconfident male students, I'm thinking of say, the student who yelled and cursed at me during my office hours because I had the audacity to subtract points from an essay because it lacked a conclusion, giving him a...gasp...B+
I think one reason we're failing at this is also that this is corresponding to a broader youth mental health crisis. One pedagogic practice that I eventually developed was just to send a personal email to every student that seemed checked out to just be like "Hey, I've noticed you seem not fully present in class, anything I can do to help or anything going on outside of the classroom that I should be aware of? Happy to help, even if that's figuring out the minimum you need to do to pass the class." That got good results until the pandemic hit and then (in part because of the racial/economic demographics of my institution's student body and how that intersected with the impact of COVID), I was spending hours a day just sending out those emails and eventually burned out hard.
posted by coffeecat at 1:12 PM on June 5 [18 favorites]
I think one reason we're failing at this is also that this is corresponding to a broader youth mental health crisis. One pedagogic practice that I eventually developed was just to send a personal email to every student that seemed checked out to just be like "Hey, I've noticed you seem not fully present in class, anything I can do to help or anything going on outside of the classroom that I should be aware of? Happy to help, even if that's figuring out the minimum you need to do to pass the class." That got good results until the pandemic hit and then (in part because of the racial/economic demographics of my institution's student body and how that intersected with the impact of COVID), I was spending hours a day just sending out those emails and eventually burned out hard.
posted by coffeecat at 1:12 PM on June 5 [18 favorites]
I'm saying that it's a message that I have internalized by being active in progressive politics my entire life (and more fundamentally just trying not to be a jerk). There's an internal voice saying "no one cares that your job is stressful when many people don't even have a job and you should just consider yourself lucky to have one at all." So I don't say anything.
And people are pointing out that this is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of progressive politics. It turns out that people do actually care about your job being stressful, because a) that's how solidarity works, and b) it turns out that bad labor practices roll downhill, so it's in our collective best interest to push back on these.
The jerkbrain relies on you taking its misinterpretation as truth. Sometimes, you need to smack it around to remind it to stop lying to you.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:16 PM on June 5 [6 favorites]
And people are pointing out that this is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of progressive politics. It turns out that people do actually care about your job being stressful, because a) that's how solidarity works, and b) it turns out that bad labor practices roll downhill, so it's in our collective best interest to push back on these.
The jerkbrain relies on you taking its misinterpretation as truth. Sometimes, you need to smack it around to remind it to stop lying to you.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:16 PM on June 5 [6 favorites]
1024, if you can remember the title of the book you mentioned that was so helpful to you, I'd love to know.
Yes, me too.
posted by kristi at 1:20 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Yes, me too.
posted by kristi at 1:20 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Sorry, NoxAeternum, but can you maybe leave some space for people to say that this is happening in progressive spaces, from progressive people, and often under the guise of instructions on how to be a better progressive man?
No true Scotsman indeed.
posted by sagc at 1:20 PM on June 5 [26 favorites]
No true Scotsman indeed.
posted by sagc at 1:20 PM on June 5 [26 favorites]
And people are pointing out that this is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of progressive politics.
Which is gaslighting bullshit, but whatever.
posted by The Bellman at 1:22 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Which is gaslighting bullshit, but whatever.
posted by The Bellman at 1:22 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Like, is the contention here that anyone who does any of these things is immediately branded as "Not Progressive"? Because that absolutely doesn't reflect how it actually seems to work in real life. People do all sorts of fucked up shit in the name of being progressive, and you can't just say "whoops, guess they don't have anything to do with me" without... actually doing something about them.
posted by sagc at 1:22 PM on June 5 [18 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:22 PM on June 5 [18 favorites]
Does not seem to align with the actual research on the subject of gender disparities in adolescent depression, which shows that although rates of depression increased from 2009 to 2019 among both girls and boys, the percentage change was larger for girls (12.0%) than boys (3.7%).
So, skimmed the data, and it also suggests that white youth are the most depressed (albeit slightly more), which.....well, I think that suggests that measuring this stuff can be tricky, and it's possible girls are perhaps more likely to be encouraged to do body scans/understand their emotions, and thus may be more adept and recognizing themselves as in distress. I think it's also worth noting the study here is measuring not rates of depression but rates of having a "major depressive episode" in the last year. Learning to recognize mild depression is perhaps harder. Like I say in my previous post, I'm well aware of the youth mental health crisis as a whole, but my observation is that girls/young women are getting into therapy/able to advocate for themselves better compared to boys/young men (at least in my classroom and the classrooms of peers I've talked about this with). I don't think anyone here is suggesting young girls aren't struggling in specific ways - there are lots of thinks pieces on how Instagram has particularly damaged body image among young girls - the point is just that trying to understand why young boys are struggling is worth our attention too.
posted by coffeecat at 1:26 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
So, skimmed the data, and it also suggests that white youth are the most depressed (albeit slightly more), which.....well, I think that suggests that measuring this stuff can be tricky, and it's possible girls are perhaps more likely to be encouraged to do body scans/understand their emotions, and thus may be more adept and recognizing themselves as in distress. I think it's also worth noting the study here is measuring not rates of depression but rates of having a "major depressive episode" in the last year. Learning to recognize mild depression is perhaps harder. Like I say in my previous post, I'm well aware of the youth mental health crisis as a whole, but my observation is that girls/young women are getting into therapy/able to advocate for themselves better compared to boys/young men (at least in my classroom and the classrooms of peers I've talked about this with). I don't think anyone here is suggesting young girls aren't struggling in specific ways - there are lots of thinks pieces on how Instagram has particularly damaged body image among young girls - the point is just that trying to understand why young boys are struggling is worth our attention too.
posted by coffeecat at 1:26 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
53 year old white cis male here. Gave up drinking 5.5 years ago, which meant I gave up my friends almost entirely. I'm reading this thread and tearing up. Yes, I grew up with and still enjoy privilege that most folks will never have. But there's a giant hollow in my soul. It's been there for many decades but now it rarely even gets filled in, even just a little temporarily. Now I just notice it more clearly staring back into me.
posted by SoberHighland at 1:34 PM on June 5 [41 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 1:34 PM on June 5 [41 favorites]
There's an internal voice saying "no one cares that your job is stressful when many people don't even have a job and you should just consider yourself lucky to have one at all." So I don't say anything.
So don't complain about your job to people who are unemployed?
I'm not saying that privilege itself isn't a source of anxiety because it totally is. Being aware that you benefit while others are challenged is hella stressful. And there are people who are so completely unaware of their own privilege that they deserve to be reminded of it because their complaints are insincere and tone deaf (i.e. Canadian grocery magnates who complain about being poor, people who suggest that cake be eaten instead of bread, etc)
Regardless of whether you're in a progressive space or not, you can't expect to relate with someone unless they can relate to you.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:34 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
So don't complain about your job to people who are unemployed?
I'm not saying that privilege itself isn't a source of anxiety because it totally is. Being aware that you benefit while others are challenged is hella stressful. And there are people who are so completely unaware of their own privilege that they deserve to be reminded of it because their complaints are insincere and tone deaf (i.e. Canadian grocery magnates who complain about being poor, people who suggest that cake be eaten instead of bread, etc)
Regardless of whether you're in a progressive space or not, you can't expect to relate with someone unless they can relate to you.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:34 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
The author does touch on this, but I am thinking this is as much about how so much of the stuff young men are into has moved online than anything to do with politics. Video games are an obvious example—they've gone from requiring that you be in the same room to play together to being designed assuming you're not. And TikTok is designed for individual viewing—I don't even think you can easily watch it on a TV without screencasting from another device. Even meeting women (or whoever you're into dating) is now somehow something you do from the privacy of your home, thanks to dating apps, when it used to require going to some kind of a place full of young people.
Movies, books, music all also used to require that you be in a certain place to access them, which gave young men an outing to do together and a place to meet other likeminded guys.
Obviously there are still hobbies young men can have that bring them physically together and give them something to do, like sports or playing music or tinkering with cars or robots, but most kids aren't athletes, mechanics or musicians and many don't have the equipment or the space for these kinds of hobbies. The sort of baseline stuff that young men are into all involves sitting in front of a screen by yourself.
posted by smelendez at 1:37 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
Movies, books, music all also used to require that you be in a certain place to access them, which gave young men an outing to do together and a place to meet other likeminded guys.
Obviously there are still hobbies young men can have that bring them physically together and give them something to do, like sports or playing music or tinkering with cars or robots, but most kids aren't athletes, mechanics or musicians and many don't have the equipment or the space for these kinds of hobbies. The sort of baseline stuff that young men are into all involves sitting in front of a screen by yourself.
posted by smelendez at 1:37 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
Does not seem to align with the actual research on the subject of gender disparities in adolescent depression, which shows that although rates of depression increased from 2009 to 2019 among both girls and boys, the percentage change was larger for girls (12.0%) than boys (3.7%).
That may be because the criteria for major depression are based on presentation in women. While historically melancholia was considered a disorder of learned men, by the time the DSM came around it had firmly shifted to being a “women’s disorder.” Particularly affluent white women. Thus, from its conception, it has been described and measured based on what depression looks like in women, and only particular women at that.
When symptoms that are more common in men’s presentation of depression are taken into consideration, then the gender gap vanishes and in fact men would qualify for diagnosis at an even higher rate than women.
However, the even greater decrease in young women's mental health and physical wellbeing is not treated with nearly the same level of seriousness and thinkpieceing, even when the stats are there to back it up. Why?
Teen Girls Report Record Levels of Sadness, CDC Finds - NYT
The Devastating Decline in Girls’ Mental Health: 7 Ways You Can help - Forbes
How American Institutions Are Failing Teenage Girls
I don’t know about you but I see people talking about the adolescent girl mental health crisis all the time. We don’t have to write thinkpieces about why we should maybe consider teen girls’ mental health, because it is largely part of the cultural consciousness already. That doesn’t mean it’s not important, just that attention is already being paid to it. I guess maybe not in your circles? I realize mine are skewed. But this seems like a standard topic that comes up a lot.
posted by brook horse at 1:39 PM on June 5 [33 favorites]
That may be because the criteria for major depression are based on presentation in women. While historically melancholia was considered a disorder of learned men, by the time the DSM came around it had firmly shifted to being a “women’s disorder.” Particularly affluent white women. Thus, from its conception, it has been described and measured based on what depression looks like in women, and only particular women at that.
When symptoms that are more common in men’s presentation of depression are taken into consideration, then the gender gap vanishes and in fact men would qualify for diagnosis at an even higher rate than women.
However, the even greater decrease in young women's mental health and physical wellbeing is not treated with nearly the same level of seriousness and thinkpieceing, even when the stats are there to back it up. Why?
Teen Girls Report Record Levels of Sadness, CDC Finds - NYT
The Devastating Decline in Girls’ Mental Health: 7 Ways You Can help - Forbes
How American Institutions Are Failing Teenage Girls
I don’t know about you but I see people talking about the adolescent girl mental health crisis all the time. We don’t have to write thinkpieces about why we should maybe consider teen girls’ mental health, because it is largely part of the cultural consciousness already. That doesn’t mean it’s not important, just that attention is already being paid to it. I guess maybe not in your circles? I realize mine are skewed. But this seems like a standard topic that comes up a lot.
posted by brook horse at 1:39 PM on June 5 [33 favorites]
I'm confused
someone shared information about their internal voice and their experience of something related to being male
it's okay to look at things differently, but why are we telling that person to do this, don't do that, he is describing his internal voice. I didn't get that he was complaining to anyone about anything
posted by elkevelvet at 1:39 PM on June 5 [34 favorites]
someone shared information about their internal voice and their experience of something related to being male
it's okay to look at things differently, but why are we telling that person to do this, don't do that, he is describing his internal voice. I didn't get that he was complaining to anyone about anything
posted by elkevelvet at 1:39 PM on June 5 [34 favorites]
Honestly I would welcome swift terminal cancer right now.
I know exactly what you mean - that ideal of having the decision taken out of your hands so that you are not forever after regarded as weak or uncaring about your family, while still having just enough time to say goodbye to everyone, wrap up financials and maybe cross that one final super important item off your bucket list before you go. It’s an illusion masking incredible pain and horror that would come with the reality, but most days it just seems like such a perfect dream.
I’m really sorry to hear that you are in this headspace, I think a lot of us are right now.
posted by Ryvar at 1:42 PM on June 5 [29 favorites]
I know exactly what you mean - that ideal of having the decision taken out of your hands so that you are not forever after regarded as weak or uncaring about your family, while still having just enough time to say goodbye to everyone, wrap up financials and maybe cross that one final super important item off your bucket list before you go. It’s an illusion masking incredible pain and horror that would come with the reality, but most days it just seems like such a perfect dream.
I’m really sorry to hear that you are in this headspace, I think a lot of us are right now.
posted by Ryvar at 1:42 PM on June 5 [29 favorites]
Coffeecat, those are super-relatable examples. My parter teaches at an institution with a lot of wonderful kids but also a lot of true twerps, and she describes how hard it is sometimes to distinguish between them when they both look like a generic dude (and the underperforming kids are generally, though not always, dudes).
How do you tell who needs help and who’s shining you on? Writing those check-in emails can be exhausting, especially when so many go unreturned. (Not to make this all about poor me, but as a student, I remember being utterly baffled by a photography professor who wanted to know why I had such a bad attitude in her class - why I was just sitting there silently with an unhappy expression on my face - when the truth is that was… just… my face, because I was… unhappy!).
Meanwhile, Overconfident Guy might be a dyed-in-the-wool jerk, or he might be compensating for something painful in his life, or might just be tone deaf or awkward in his own way, and the line between facilitating full participation from the whole group vs. discouraging participation from specific kids can get a little blurry unless you’re a pretty experienced teacher.
posted by ducky l'orange at 1:43 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
How do you tell who needs help and who’s shining you on? Writing those check-in emails can be exhausting, especially when so many go unreturned. (Not to make this all about poor me, but as a student, I remember being utterly baffled by a photography professor who wanted to know why I had such a bad attitude in her class - why I was just sitting there silently with an unhappy expression on my face - when the truth is that was… just… my face, because I was… unhappy!).
Meanwhile, Overconfident Guy might be a dyed-in-the-wool jerk, or he might be compensating for something painful in his life, or might just be tone deaf or awkward in his own way, and the line between facilitating full participation from the whole group vs. discouraging participation from specific kids can get a little blurry unless you’re a pretty experienced teacher.
posted by ducky l'orange at 1:43 PM on June 5 [4 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed earlier. "Angry feminists” is an insensitive stereotype that goes directly against the Content Policy
Apologies for the late moderation note.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:44 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
Apologies for the late moderation note.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:44 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
FWIW, Ben Trismegistus' stated experience matches some of my own; it's not unique. I have encountered plenty of penis-oriented bio-essentialism in progressive spaces, often in ways which we would obviously recognize as misogynistic or transphobic if they were directed towards women or trans people. And, like a woman in a sexist workplace, there's some calculus to do on when to bring it up versus when to shrug it off and get on with the work.
On the bright side, I do think that many of the basic tools of feminism are completely relevant to the problem. Making the connection that we should relate to people as people, instead of representatives of their gender, race, and class, is sometimes enough to get people to understand. Or that we should listen to and accept people's lived experiences.
Sometimes that conversation goes well and there's a lightbulb moment, and sometimes there's a big upsurge of defensiveness, denial, and deflection. You don't know which is going to happen, so, again, calculus. Seems like we've seen examples of that conversation going both ways, in this very thread.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:45 PM on June 5 [24 favorites]
On the bright side, I do think that many of the basic tools of feminism are completely relevant to the problem. Making the connection that we should relate to people as people, instead of representatives of their gender, race, and class, is sometimes enough to get people to understand. Or that we should listen to and accept people's lived experiences.
Sometimes that conversation goes well and there's a lightbulb moment, and sometimes there's a big upsurge of defensiveness, denial, and deflection. You don't know which is going to happen, so, again, calculus. Seems like we've seen examples of that conversation going both ways, in this very thread.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:45 PM on June 5 [24 favorites]
So don't complain about your job to people who are unemployed?
This is such a bizarro extension of “dump out, not in” that I honestly cannot believe it. This is simply not how relationships work on a day-to-day basis; you don’t complain to someone in crisis when you are less affected by the crisis, true. But in your regular, day to day conversations, abiding by a rule of “if this person suffers worse than you on x metric, you should never expect emotional support from them about it” is FUCKING WILD. Don’t complain to someone about your job the day after they became unemployed, but don’t just never talk to them about that source of stress ever again until they get a job?? What???
Like, oh my god. I am the poorest and most disabled person in my friend group. When my much richer friend is stressed out about whether she’s going to get her job offer in writing soon enough to buy a house before she has to move, I don’t go, “You asshole, I’ll never be able to buy a house!” I go “jesus that sounds stressful, I hate the uncertainty that comes with moving between jobs, I hope you get answers soon.” When my friends who don’t have chronic migraines have headaches I don’t tell them to shut up about it, I go, “Ugh that sucks, bet the weather is making it worse too. Do you want some of my alleve?” Because they support me when I’m stressed about housing, or migraines, or whatever, so I’m gonna give that support back even if they “have more resources” or whatever.
What is actually wrong with—? Sorry, my emotion regulation skills are failing me, but literally, what the fuck. Obviously there are ways to be totally obnoxious about it but a blanket “don’t complain down” is just not how a functional friendship works. It in fact marginalizes the marginalized friend further because friendships are built on shared vulnerability and if you categorically remove certain people from sharing your struggles, you will not be able to have as deep a friendship.
Ben Trismegistus, I am specifically trained in the development of social skills and friendship in adolescents and adults. I am here to tell you that RonButNotStupid is completely and totally wrong about how social support and friendships work, and to please share your struggles with your friends, including your unemployed ones. I can tell by your writing that you are sensitive to their experiences and would do so in the right way and context for your friendship. Please reach out to your friends. My inbox is open too (it’s also open to all of the rest of the men in here who feel like they need to keep things to themselves).
posted by brook horse at 2:00 PM on June 5 [104 favorites]
This is such a bizarro extension of “dump out, not in” that I honestly cannot believe it. This is simply not how relationships work on a day-to-day basis; you don’t complain to someone in crisis when you are less affected by the crisis, true. But in your regular, day to day conversations, abiding by a rule of “if this person suffers worse than you on x metric, you should never expect emotional support from them about it” is FUCKING WILD. Don’t complain to someone about your job the day after they became unemployed, but don’t just never talk to them about that source of stress ever again until they get a job?? What???
Like, oh my god. I am the poorest and most disabled person in my friend group. When my much richer friend is stressed out about whether she’s going to get her job offer in writing soon enough to buy a house before she has to move, I don’t go, “You asshole, I’ll never be able to buy a house!” I go “jesus that sounds stressful, I hate the uncertainty that comes with moving between jobs, I hope you get answers soon.” When my friends who don’t have chronic migraines have headaches I don’t tell them to shut up about it, I go, “Ugh that sucks, bet the weather is making it worse too. Do you want some of my alleve?” Because they support me when I’m stressed about housing, or migraines, or whatever, so I’m gonna give that support back even if they “have more resources” or whatever.
What is actually wrong with—? Sorry, my emotion regulation skills are failing me, but literally, what the fuck. Obviously there are ways to be totally obnoxious about it but a blanket “don’t complain down” is just not how a functional friendship works. It in fact marginalizes the marginalized friend further because friendships are built on shared vulnerability and if you categorically remove certain people from sharing your struggles, you will not be able to have as deep a friendship.
Ben Trismegistus, I am specifically trained in the development of social skills and friendship in adolescents and adults. I am here to tell you that RonButNotStupid is completely and totally wrong about how social support and friendships work, and to please share your struggles with your friends, including your unemployed ones. I can tell by your writing that you are sensitive to their experiences and would do so in the right way and context for your friendship. Please reach out to your friends. My inbox is open too (it’s also open to all of the rest of the men in here who feel like they need to keep things to themselves).
posted by brook horse at 2:00 PM on June 5 [104 favorites]
Parent of young, disabled boy here.
My kid began getting suspended from school while still in kindergarten; by first grade he burned out of the system and now hardly leaves the house owing to cumulative school trauma.
I'm not blaming any individual here; people had good intentions and even tried to act kindly (and the schools of my generation were undoubtedly worse) but my child was nonetheless failed by the system.
Why is *any* kid getting suspended from kindergarten, whether disabled or not? Why are kids asked to be silent, sit still, or pay attention, without regard to their individual circumstances, needs, and abilities? Why aren't children taught that they are people and deserve agency and autonomy? Why are there sticker charts, rewards, punishments, and always an enforcement of authority at all costs? Why are kids constantly surveilled and disrespected? Why are schools so regimented, authoritarian, and large? In short why do schools exist in their current form?
It seems inevitable, but it wasn't always so. What we know of some primitive hunter gatherer societies suggests that prior to agriculture children's autonomy was respected, "classroom" ratios were tiny, instruction was individualized, and punishment or even angry words were non-existent. In some cases we know that disabilities like autism were appreciated and respected. Our current system is not inevitable but rather a result of agricultural/industrial capitalism and authoritarianism: in short patriarchy.
So boys are hurt by patriarchy, not feminism. So why do boys blame feminism rather than patriarchy? Because people in these systems identify as feminists, but their feminism is not sufficiently radical. It still demands compliance, authoritarianism, dominance, and incentivization. It denies people's agency and autonomy. And it prizes the status quo.
We need a more radical feminism than this.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:30 PM on June 5 [33 favorites]
My kid began getting suspended from school while still in kindergarten; by first grade he burned out of the system and now hardly leaves the house owing to cumulative school trauma.
I'm not blaming any individual here; people had good intentions and even tried to act kindly (and the schools of my generation were undoubtedly worse) but my child was nonetheless failed by the system.
Why is *any* kid getting suspended from kindergarten, whether disabled or not? Why are kids asked to be silent, sit still, or pay attention, without regard to their individual circumstances, needs, and abilities? Why aren't children taught that they are people and deserve agency and autonomy? Why are there sticker charts, rewards, punishments, and always an enforcement of authority at all costs? Why are kids constantly surveilled and disrespected? Why are schools so regimented, authoritarian, and large? In short why do schools exist in their current form?
It seems inevitable, but it wasn't always so. What we know of some primitive hunter gatherer societies suggests that prior to agriculture children's autonomy was respected, "classroom" ratios were tiny, instruction was individualized, and punishment or even angry words were non-existent. In some cases we know that disabilities like autism were appreciated and respected. Our current system is not inevitable but rather a result of agricultural/industrial capitalism and authoritarianism: in short patriarchy.
So boys are hurt by patriarchy, not feminism. So why do boys blame feminism rather than patriarchy? Because people in these systems identify as feminists, but their feminism is not sufficiently radical. It still demands compliance, authoritarianism, dominance, and incentivization. It denies people's agency and autonomy. And it prizes the status quo.
We need a more radical feminism than this.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:30 PM on June 5 [33 favorites]
Why are there sticker charts, rewards, punishments, and always an enforcement of authority at all costs? Why are kids constantly surveilled and disrespected? Why are schools so regimented, authoritarian, and large?
IMO (only): people get tired of having to spend so much effort on one kid (or a few) who can't follow orders in a reasonable manner, regardless of gender, and simple compliance in a group of 10 or more is far easier, and far less stressful, than individualized treatment. Taking care of one wild kid takes a lot out of you, and by the end of the year, even the most compassionate have run out of energy. It's still a job afterall, with institutional goals beyond behavioral improvement. Is a teacher who has a classroom full of happy, well-adjusted children who can't read or do math doing a good job? Not really, depending I guess on the age.
Also kids are not dumb - they know how to take advantage of lapses in authority (and with less understanding of consequences than adults because they are children) and how to act contrite and dial up and back to minimize punishment.
I don't think patriarchy or feminism have anything to do with that particular aspect of it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:49 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
IMO (only): people get tired of having to spend so much effort on one kid (or a few) who can't follow orders in a reasonable manner, regardless of gender, and simple compliance in a group of 10 or more is far easier, and far less stressful, than individualized treatment. Taking care of one wild kid takes a lot out of you, and by the end of the year, even the most compassionate have run out of energy. It's still a job afterall, with institutional goals beyond behavioral improvement. Is a teacher who has a classroom full of happy, well-adjusted children who can't read or do math doing a good job? Not really, depending I guess on the age.
Also kids are not dumb - they know how to take advantage of lapses in authority (and with less understanding of consequences than adults because they are children) and how to act contrite and dial up and back to minimize punishment.
I don't think patriarchy or feminism have anything to do with that particular aspect of it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:49 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
no, but nearly everything else they said has to do with both of those things
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:57 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:57 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
people get tired of having to spend so much effort on one kid
Did you seriously just type that in response to me, after I said I was parent to a disabled kid?
Trust me, I know how much effort it is. You don't have to splain to me.
I will leave this conversation now.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:08 PM on June 5 [19 favorites]
Did you seriously just type that in response to me, after I said I was parent to a disabled kid?
Trust me, I know how much effort it is. You don't have to splain to me.
I will leave this conversation now.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:08 PM on June 5 [19 favorites]
I can see there's a number of men giving witness to the ways this lack of accommodation in our culture hurts them, and this often gets expressed alongside a sentiment that they feel they can't or aren't allowed to have these feelings or share them with anyone.
I know our culture says that, and I know depression - a professional liar - says that. I also know that even knowing HOW to articulate them even internally may be a skillset that you've been denied access to from early childhood. (And then find that in contemporary progressive society that's a liability because it makes it very easy to fuck up in a system of rules you can't intuit because you did not get the primer, and then there goes the shame spiral and the shutting down.)
Out of a few years of volunteer grief support in a world where therapy is incredibly hard to attain either for financial or just scarcity reasons, I've accumulated a pretty extensive reading list plus a few additional resources on grief, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, trauma, CPTSD and other facets of childhood trauma and parenting injury, etc. I keep the list in a google doc I've got linked in my profile, if anyone is reading this from a place where you've decided fuck this, I need a starting point or a direction or some kind of place I can begin wrangling with this. Maybe something on that list lights a spark. A book can't fix everything, but I will tell you a book can actually fix some things, or at least put your foot on the path, when that direction was definitely not going to just manifest out of thin air. They can't replace a therapist, but I think they actually CAN replace a number of early sessions.
If I can help point you to a starting point or help find some more specific resources, or just provide friendly reassurance that it really is worth the effort to crack open the trunks of stuff you locked away feelings in and hoped they'd deal with themselves, please memail me.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:16 PM on June 5 [36 favorites]
I know our culture says that, and I know depression - a professional liar - says that. I also know that even knowing HOW to articulate them even internally may be a skillset that you've been denied access to from early childhood. (And then find that in contemporary progressive society that's a liability because it makes it very easy to fuck up in a system of rules you can't intuit because you did not get the primer, and then there goes the shame spiral and the shutting down.)
Out of a few years of volunteer grief support in a world where therapy is incredibly hard to attain either for financial or just scarcity reasons, I've accumulated a pretty extensive reading list plus a few additional resources on grief, emotional regulation, emotional intelligence, trauma, CPTSD and other facets of childhood trauma and parenting injury, etc. I keep the list in a google doc I've got linked in my profile, if anyone is reading this from a place where you've decided fuck this, I need a starting point or a direction or some kind of place I can begin wrangling with this. Maybe something on that list lights a spark. A book can't fix everything, but I will tell you a book can actually fix some things, or at least put your foot on the path, when that direction was definitely not going to just manifest out of thin air. They can't replace a therapist, but I think they actually CAN replace a number of early sessions.
If I can help point you to a starting point or help find some more specific resources, or just provide friendly reassurance that it really is worth the effort to crack open the trunks of stuff you locked away feelings in and hoped they'd deal with themselves, please memail me.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:16 PM on June 5 [36 favorites]
I wish I could add something of value to this conversation, but just thinking about any of this sends me into a depression spiral.
posted by GiantSlug at 4:10 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
posted by GiantSlug at 4:10 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
It is bleakly funny that we're having a discussion of whether "progressives" can reach young men on this leftish forum, and I'm not sure we've had any comments from any men under 30.
It's also interesting that we're in the middle of a huge wave of youth organizing for Palestine, which seems to include plenty of young men, but because that's way too hot button a topic to casually drop in a trend story—or even, I think for a lot of outlets, to try to compare to or contextualize with any other current or past activism—it's just treated as its own separate thing and not informing any larger media discussions of the youth today.
posted by smelendez at 4:10 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
It's also interesting that we're in the middle of a huge wave of youth organizing for Palestine, which seems to include plenty of young men, but because that's way too hot button a topic to casually drop in a trend story—or even, I think for a lot of outlets, to try to compare to or contextualize with any other current or past activism—it's just treated as its own separate thing and not informing any larger media discussions of the youth today.
posted by smelendez at 4:10 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
Reading this article made me sad because it feels like the boat sailed a long time ago. The gender roles + culture war has been flaming for over 50 years. Men who doubled down on misogyny and winner-take-all politics post-feminism did not have the wisdom to understand the truth - by denying the feminine part of themselves they hurt everyone - women, daughters, sons including generations of boys who are not able to find outlets for experiencing the full spectrum of human emotion publically and with dignity. We could have had a partnership and instead, we have a war. When I see a man cry I cheer him and think it is one of the most beautiful things in the world. One person who is somewhat divisive but who embodies this is Scott Galloway of the Prof G Pod/ Pivot. He talks about boys crying a lot, for instance in this post.
posted by Word_Salad at 5:15 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Word_Salad at 5:15 PM on June 5 [2 favorites]
a therapist absolutely does want to hear all about your stresses, anxieties, sadness, and loneliness. That's what they're there for.
We are currently in a therapist supply crisis in this country, which is another part of the problem.
I used to have extremely severe depression and PTSD. That was able to be moved to moderate, because at the time it happened, I was in the military, and was able to access twice a week therapy for months until I was ready to move to once a week therapy, and then once every two weeks, and then once a month. And the therapist was available in between sessions for emergencies
Most therapists now schedule once a month or once every two week appointments, because they're so massively overbooked. That is not enough time for many people in crisis to see therapeutic value. Worse, there's waiting lists for even that, as many therapists are not accepting new patients.
people are pointing out that this is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of progressive politics
The thing is: saying this is about as effective as people saying that being hateful to others is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of Christianity. It may make Christians feel better, but it's not going to help the people who are outside the group feel better about the treatment they're receiving.
Does not seem to align with the actual research on the subject of gender disparities in adolescent depression, which shows that although rates of depression increased from 2009 to 2019 among both girls and boys, the percentage change was larger for girls (12.0%) than boys (3.7%).
Unfortunately, the lethality of suicide attempts is higher for boys, especially when they grow up into men. Girls and women may be more depressed, but they're also more likely to recognize that and get treatment. "Men would rather do X than go to therapy" is a meme/joke, but it's based in real facts, as well. And that's not to mention that their methods of attempted suicide are usually more effective and more difficult to correct (Weapons, cars vs medication overdose)
IMO (only): people get tired of having to spend so much effort on one kid (or a few) who can't follow orders in a reasonable manner, regardless of gender, and simple compliance in a group of 10 or more is far easier, and far less stressful, than individualized treatment...
I don't think patriarchy or feminism have anything to do with that particular aspect of it.
I want to dig in on this, because it's a great example of how people aren't always aware of the assumptions that go into their beliefs.
Obedience to authority is absolutely gendered and related to patriarchy. How people respond to authority is affected by gender and gender expectations, and how their resistance to authority manifests is also often gendered.
One of the complaints that is often made that I think has a lot of validity is that boys are now punished for and prevented from what is normative behavior for them, especially for neurodivergent people like those who have ADHD. That might not be the intention of it, but things like "not letting people run or wrestle or do heavy physical activity during recess because of liability fears" cause more problems for boys. Similarly, expecting absolute obedience and no fidgeting or open defiance is harder for boys than girls, who often have more subtle methods of defiance and other ways of venting energy or having focus issues. ADHD girls who read or use their phone in class, are treated far differently than ADHD boys who are engaging in consensual physical horseplay, for example.
posted by corb at 5:24 PM on June 5 [27 favorites]
We are currently in a therapist supply crisis in this country, which is another part of the problem.
I used to have extremely severe depression and PTSD. That was able to be moved to moderate, because at the time it happened, I was in the military, and was able to access twice a week therapy for months until I was ready to move to once a week therapy, and then once every two weeks, and then once a month. And the therapist was available in between sessions for emergencies
Most therapists now schedule once a month or once every two week appointments, because they're so massively overbooked. That is not enough time for many people in crisis to see therapeutic value. Worse, there's waiting lists for even that, as many therapists are not accepting new patients.
people are pointing out that this is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of progressive politics
The thing is: saying this is about as effective as people saying that being hateful to others is a horrible, harmful misinterpretation of Christianity. It may make Christians feel better, but it's not going to help the people who are outside the group feel better about the treatment they're receiving.
Does not seem to align with the actual research on the subject of gender disparities in adolescent depression, which shows that although rates of depression increased from 2009 to 2019 among both girls and boys, the percentage change was larger for girls (12.0%) than boys (3.7%).
Unfortunately, the lethality of suicide attempts is higher for boys, especially when they grow up into men. Girls and women may be more depressed, but they're also more likely to recognize that and get treatment. "Men would rather do X than go to therapy" is a meme/joke, but it's based in real facts, as well. And that's not to mention that their methods of attempted suicide are usually more effective and more difficult to correct (Weapons, cars vs medication overdose)
IMO (only): people get tired of having to spend so much effort on one kid (or a few) who can't follow orders in a reasonable manner, regardless of gender, and simple compliance in a group of 10 or more is far easier, and far less stressful, than individualized treatment...
I don't think patriarchy or feminism have anything to do with that particular aspect of it.
I want to dig in on this, because it's a great example of how people aren't always aware of the assumptions that go into their beliefs.
Obedience to authority is absolutely gendered and related to patriarchy. How people respond to authority is affected by gender and gender expectations, and how their resistance to authority manifests is also often gendered.
One of the complaints that is often made that I think has a lot of validity is that boys are now punished for and prevented from what is normative behavior for them, especially for neurodivergent people like those who have ADHD. That might not be the intention of it, but things like "not letting people run or wrestle or do heavy physical activity during recess because of liability fears" cause more problems for boys. Similarly, expecting absolute obedience and no fidgeting or open defiance is harder for boys than girls, who often have more subtle methods of defiance and other ways of venting energy or having focus issues. ADHD girls who read or use their phone in class, are treated far differently than ADHD boys who are engaging in consensual physical horseplay, for example.
posted by corb at 5:24 PM on June 5 [27 favorites]
Nobody should be engaging with anything that the NYT publishes about gender. At this point there is overwhelming evidence that their goals are regressive, antifeminist, and transphobic.
this is a really convenient way to suggest that the issue isn’t real or important! why is it so threatening to talk about this?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 6:08 PM on June 5 [13 favorites]
this is a really convenient way to suggest that the issue isn’t real or important! why is it so threatening to talk about this?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 6:08 PM on June 5 [13 favorites]
Just caught up on what's happened in this thread today, and it seems like some folks have learned some things, which is great. But I feel like several people have also been unfairly harangued in the course of others' learning in this thread, and some have chosen not to engage further so as not to get hurt. It seems a bit ironic. Like society can do better than this, and so can MetaFilter.
posted by limeonaire at 6:27 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 6:27 PM on June 5 [10 favorites]
"not letting people run or wrestle or do heavy physical activity during recess because of liability fears" cause more problems for boys.
I'd have to see actual data the 'liability fears' are false and not real money before I'd agree with this. School budgets are already notoriously tight. A few percent fighting cases, even ones they eventually win, could be draining. Also 'consensual physical horseplay' is doing a lot of work in a thread where people are saying they were ostracized for not participating in general 'male bonding' rituals. You can't have it both ways.
posted by The_Vegetables at 6:32 PM on June 5
I'd have to see actual data the 'liability fears' are false and not real money before I'd agree with this. School budgets are already notoriously tight. A few percent fighting cases, even ones they eventually win, could be draining. Also 'consensual physical horseplay' is doing a lot of work in a thread where people are saying they were ostracized for not participating in general 'male bonding' rituals. You can't have it both ways.
posted by The_Vegetables at 6:32 PM on June 5
This thread made me feel kind of yucky.
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:45 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:45 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
Thanks. I was worried that didn't come across the first several hundred times it was brought up unprompted in this and every other thread about boys' and men's issues. If we repeat it a few more times here maybe we can really focus on how this issue impacts women.
posted by fader at 6:54 PM on June 5 [58 favorites]
Thanks. I was worried that didn't come across the first several hundred times it was brought up unprompted in this and every other thread about boys' and men's issues. If we repeat it a few more times here maybe we can really focus on how this issue impacts women.
posted by fader at 6:54 PM on June 5 [58 favorites]
I think we had gotten the idea by the time men started expressing their wishes to die by cancer, and anyone who feels the need to bring it up again should reread that.
posted by brook horse at 7:14 PM on June 5 [33 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 7:14 PM on June 5 [33 favorites]
Want to talk about boys? OK. I'll mention two.
GenX man here, born 1967 in New York City. Childhood and teen years trained me *thoroughly* never to express nearly all emotions. Sadness, love, confusion, even whimsy: parents, teachers, fellow kids, popular culture took pains to make sure I knew those were Very Bad Moves, signs of weakness, open cries for the vultures to descend and tear my flesh.
One of the painful parts of reading this thread and thinking how to respond was looking back into the memories it brought up. The 5th grade teacher who became furious with me when I couldn't stop crying. The boys and girls laughing with delight (ditto the coach) when the 6th grade jocks ganged up on me in gym class for a beating, then making sure not to be anywhere near me afterwards lest I need some support. Discovering something which gave me delight - a book, learning BASIC, a skill - and fighting very hard to quash those feelings down, good and hard.
Teen years revealed the two emotions I could share. Anger, fury, even wrath was good - not good, but epically good, if staged correctly. Done wrong and it was just another dumb emotion, an exposure to the rending claws. And triumph was good, especially if it was a victory over other people. Now, you couldn't wallow in those too long, nor examine them closely, lest it become tiresome and another sign of weakness.
Teen years also featured extensive homophobia programming, especially once AIDS took off.
I found I could experience some emotions in private, through reading. And playing in a symphony orchestra authorized a shared, wordless series of feelings.
What did that boyhood do for me as an adult? It prepared me well, to be honest. The world of higher education, the world of work, the world of civic life usually played by those rules. The colder and most closed off I got, the better. It's easy for me to recall scenes when other adults mocked me for being emotional, or just stared blankly before disengaging. Several times getting emotional cost me professionally. And these were putatively liberal and progressive spaces.
As a father, I fought this training very hard. I made a point of being there for my son's tidal waves of feelings. I tried to make sure he could be open in social situations when we were both present. I gladly supported him when he got into stuff not coded masculine, like knitting. I cheered on his Brony fandom.
As an adult now he's very emotionally grounded, very empathetic and caring, always in touch with his feelings. But still, even today, I feel the deep programming telling me to guard him from those vultures, to shield him from exposure. I want him to be armored and strong and remorseless.
So: two boys.
posted by doctornemo at 7:15 PM on June 5 [60 favorites]
GenX man here, born 1967 in New York City. Childhood and teen years trained me *thoroughly* never to express nearly all emotions. Sadness, love, confusion, even whimsy: parents, teachers, fellow kids, popular culture took pains to make sure I knew those were Very Bad Moves, signs of weakness, open cries for the vultures to descend and tear my flesh.
One of the painful parts of reading this thread and thinking how to respond was looking back into the memories it brought up. The 5th grade teacher who became furious with me when I couldn't stop crying. The boys and girls laughing with delight (ditto the coach) when the 6th grade jocks ganged up on me in gym class for a beating, then making sure not to be anywhere near me afterwards lest I need some support. Discovering something which gave me delight - a book, learning BASIC, a skill - and fighting very hard to quash those feelings down, good and hard.
Teen years revealed the two emotions I could share. Anger, fury, even wrath was good - not good, but epically good, if staged correctly. Done wrong and it was just another dumb emotion, an exposure to the rending claws. And triumph was good, especially if it was a victory over other people. Now, you couldn't wallow in those too long, nor examine them closely, lest it become tiresome and another sign of weakness.
Teen years also featured extensive homophobia programming, especially once AIDS took off.
I found I could experience some emotions in private, through reading. And playing in a symphony orchestra authorized a shared, wordless series of feelings.
What did that boyhood do for me as an adult? It prepared me well, to be honest. The world of higher education, the world of work, the world of civic life usually played by those rules. The colder and most closed off I got, the better. It's easy for me to recall scenes when other adults mocked me for being emotional, or just stared blankly before disengaging. Several times getting emotional cost me professionally. And these were putatively liberal and progressive spaces.
As a father, I fought this training very hard. I made a point of being there for my son's tidal waves of feelings. I tried to make sure he could be open in social situations when we were both present. I gladly supported him when he got into stuff not coded masculine, like knitting. I cheered on his Brony fandom.
As an adult now he's very emotionally grounded, very empathetic and caring, always in touch with his feelings. But still, even today, I feel the deep programming telling me to guard him from those vultures, to shield him from exposure. I want him to be armored and strong and remorseless.
So: two boys.
posted by doctornemo at 7:15 PM on June 5 [60 favorites]
In my kid's kindergarten class, his teacher related consequences of "not following the group plan", which includes things like sitting in their assigned chair, listening, and not distracting classmates or disrupting the class. For example, my kid didn't listen to the teacher's directions and then found that he was quickly lost when working on some project while everyone else knew what to do and he felt anxious about it as a natural consequence. It includes artificial consequences like not being allowed to play with a toy at free time, timeouts or whatever else is appropriate for the situation.
So that's one reason why kid's are taught to sit still and be quiet and listen. And it's a way to teach that without infringing on ideas about agency and the like as well as an example of why children need to learn these kinds of things. Those skills then set the stage for 1st grade and some more serious learning. It's all about building skills to enable more and better learning. I've been very impressed with his teachers and school.
They're also taught things about respecting other's personal space and talking about feelings. Lessons we reinforce at home (and talk to his teacher about how to reinforce each other). There are also a lot of things we try to teach for a LOT of reasons, a big one, "it's not fun unless everyone is having fun" and we talk about what that means and how he needs to consider other's feelings and if he notices someone not having fun, he (and his friends I hope) should figure out what the problem is and work to find a solution. Great thing to teach generally but a piece of it is so he carries that same attitude into his sex life when he's older. Just part of being a parent.
posted by VTX at 7:31 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]
So that's one reason why kid's are taught to sit still and be quiet and listen. And it's a way to teach that without infringing on ideas about agency and the like as well as an example of why children need to learn these kinds of things. Those skills then set the stage for 1st grade and some more serious learning. It's all about building skills to enable more and better learning. I've been very impressed with his teachers and school.
They're also taught things about respecting other's personal space and talking about feelings. Lessons we reinforce at home (and talk to his teacher about how to reinforce each other). There are also a lot of things we try to teach for a LOT of reasons, a big one, "it's not fun unless everyone is having fun" and we talk about what that means and how he needs to consider other's feelings and if he notices someone not having fun, he (and his friends I hope) should figure out what the problem is and work to find a solution. Great thing to teach generally but a piece of it is so he carries that same attitude into his sex life when he's older. Just part of being a parent.
posted by VTX at 7:31 PM on June 5 [8 favorites]
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
weird how, again, the article is about boys— who women, i’m given to understand, share some role in raising and socializing, notwithstanding that they also need more and better raising and socializing from men as well.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 7:36 PM on June 5 [35 favorites]
weird how, again, the article is about boys— who women, i’m given to understand, share some role in raising and socializing, notwithstanding that they also need more and better raising and socializing from men as well.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 7:36 PM on June 5 [35 favorites]
I'm an early GenXer and it's heartening to see how far we have come in addressing these issues, which were considered shameful when I was growing up. It might not feel like we've made progress since we're in a painful transitional time between the old days when women were responsible for most of the emotional labour and girls were expected to step aside for boys' needs and a--hopefully--more egalitarian future.
It will be tough while that future comes into focus but the amount of work being done by the men here in particular makes me optimistic. There are many people who see the need for change and are working towards it in concrete ways. I just hope it can happen fast enough.
posted by rpfields at 7:58 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
It will be tough while that future comes into focus but the amount of work being done by the men here in particular makes me optimistic. There are many people who see the need for change and are working towards it in concrete ways. I just hope it can happen fast enough.
posted by rpfields at 7:58 PM on June 5 [3 favorites]
But I feel like several people have also been unfairly harangued in the course of others' learning in this thread, and some have chosen not to engage further so as not to get hurt.
Agreed. I don't want to wade back into who said what to whom, in case that stirs things up again, but I'd have liked to see people give more grace to one another and not jump to the worst possible interpretation, especially if someone has said they're feeling vulnerable.
posted by Zumbador at 8:01 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Agreed. I don't want to wade back into who said what to whom, in case that stirs things up again, but I'd have liked to see people give more grace to one another and not jump to the worst possible interpretation, especially if someone has said they're feeling vulnerable.
posted by Zumbador at 8:01 PM on June 5 [5 favorites]
Wow. Just caught up. As the father of a boy I’m pretty discouraged. I’m not sure that a boy who read this thread would get the impression that talking about his feelings was a good idea.
Interesting callback to the famous emotional labor thread. My takeaway from that thread was Don’t Talk to Women, so I stopped doing it. Most of my friends and family are women so it meant I kind of stopped talking but them’s the breaks.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:05 PM on June 5 [19 favorites]
Interesting callback to the famous emotional labor thread. My takeaway from that thread was Don’t Talk to Women, so I stopped doing it. Most of my friends and family are women so it meant I kind of stopped talking but them’s the breaks.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:05 PM on June 5 [19 favorites]
My takeaway from that thread was Don’t Talk to Women, so I stopped doing it. Most of my friends and family are women so it meant I kind of stopped talking but them’s the breaks.
this ain’t it, chief. you chose that takeaway. and it’s not a great model for your boy, i don’t think. what’s he learning from you? to stop talking to the girls and women around him as he gets older?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:23 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
this ain’t it, chief. you chose that takeaway. and it’s not a great model for your boy, i don’t think. what’s he learning from you? to stop talking to the girls and women around him as he gets older?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:23 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
1024 I'd also like to get the title of that book! I've got a son in middle school and that sounds like a great resource (I'd like to read it for myself too).
posted by technodelic at 9:01 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
posted by technodelic at 9:01 PM on June 5 [1 favorite]
If we want to get rid of Toxic Masculinity, we need to create a Healthy Masculinity for people who identify as male.
posted by jb at 9:05 PM on June 5 [6 favorites]
posted by jb at 9:05 PM on June 5 [6 favorites]
My youngest boy is 22. And like his two older brothers - a heaving volcano of emotions. The nastiest thing that patriarchy has done to boys is tell them that they are purely rational beings and that rationality is better than emotions.
So I spend my time talking to him, and his brothers, about emotions - getting my boys to identify, taxonomise, examine and deal with emotions, and then use that information to make better decisions. I try and teach them how to make a home - a safe space, welcoming, where they can be vulnerable and their authentic selves.
I do worry about technology. My analogy is cars - it took two generations of dead, young, predominantly male victims to introduce seat belts, etc. I think computers pose similar risks, and having worked with computers for over thirty years, I encourage critical engagement.
As far as schools are concerned, my sons were not particularly teachable, but I am still annoyed at how little was expected of them.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 9:22 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
So I spend my time talking to him, and his brothers, about emotions - getting my boys to identify, taxonomise, examine and deal with emotions, and then use that information to make better decisions. I try and teach them how to make a home - a safe space, welcoming, where they can be vulnerable and their authentic selves.
I do worry about technology. My analogy is cars - it took two generations of dead, young, predominantly male victims to introduce seat belts, etc. I think computers pose similar risks, and having worked with computers for over thirty years, I encourage critical engagement.
As far as schools are concerned, my sons were not particularly teachable, but I am still annoyed at how little was expected of them.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 9:22 PM on June 5 [11 favorites]
This thread to me suggests one of the great limitations of the metaphor of privilege to describe structural arrangements benefiting men (and other groups). Privilege is an extraordinarily useful way, and a true way, to describe power in society, and is particularly good at pointing out invisibilities, but not many people when they're thinking about privileges remember that the reverse of privilege is obligation.
Higher statuses always come with expectations, and in the case of men and manhood it's the obligation to perform that status, as Butler would say, as gender, or rather, experience gender through performing everyday life, which is not something anyone chooses. Convincing men and boys of the privilege of their manhood isn't difficult, it's just a matter of looking out the window at [points to the world], but the catch is that the more compelling the notion of one's privilege, and the reality that you can't just give it up or pretend it's not there, there's so much more felt responsibility to discharge the implied obligations.
Even when, ironically and perversely, those obligations are performed as maleness in ways---abnegate, repress, be silent, pretend, keep calm, be a rock, lead---that reinforce the harm. So much for 'just do the work'.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:05 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
Higher statuses always come with expectations, and in the case of men and manhood it's the obligation to perform that status, as Butler would say, as gender, or rather, experience gender through performing everyday life, which is not something anyone chooses. Convincing men and boys of the privilege of their manhood isn't difficult, it's just a matter of looking out the window at [points to the world], but the catch is that the more compelling the notion of one's privilege, and the reality that you can't just give it up or pretend it's not there, there's so much more felt responsibility to discharge the implied obligations.
Even when, ironically and perversely, those obligations are performed as maleness in ways---abnegate, repress, be silent, pretend, keep calm, be a rock, lead---that reinforce the harm. So much for 'just do the work'.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:05 PM on June 5 [12 favorites]
This thread made me feel kind of yucky.
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
Maybe examine that feeling some?
Because I think you should absolutely feel uncomfortable coming into a space where people are being vulnerable, expressing how progressive spaces have failed them, *specifically* by denying them help or even the space to ask for help, and then dropping that turd of a comment.
It isn't comfortable to hear how you have failed someone. Progressive men are expected to endure that discomfort and listen when they are told about male privilege and the ways they have been unconsciously hurting the women in their lives. And this is right, because enduring that discomfort is the only way to become conscious of the behaviors that they need to change.
It is your responsibility to do the same: to listen and endure the discomfort of being told you are hurting people, and to do your best to not hurt them again.
posted by JDHarper at 12:30 AM on June 6 [49 favorites]
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
Maybe examine that feeling some?
Because I think you should absolutely feel uncomfortable coming into a space where people are being vulnerable, expressing how progressive spaces have failed them, *specifically* by denying them help or even the space to ask for help, and then dropping that turd of a comment.
It isn't comfortable to hear how you have failed someone. Progressive men are expected to endure that discomfort and listen when they are told about male privilege and the ways they have been unconsciously hurting the women in their lives. And this is right, because enduring that discomfort is the only way to become conscious of the behaviors that they need to change.
It is your responsibility to do the same: to listen and endure the discomfort of being told you are hurting people, and to do your best to not hurt them again.
posted by JDHarper at 12:30 AM on June 6 [49 favorites]
The right wing grifters want men to be their meal-ticket, their voters and their soldiers/terrorists. They sell these men and boys a fantasy of social, career and sexual success. Is there any evidence their offensive dating and behavior advice works? I'd bet its positively maladaptive. rich and powerful men get to be assholes and sociopaths, but probably being an asshole doesnt lead to being rich and powerful.
When the crops fail and the lights go out, we will all need to rely on community much more, and it doesn't seem like the misogyny-social-media complex is going to churn out sigma-winners or whatever ridiculous branding they have now.
Do we have evidence that training boys to perform public emotional displays and undergo medical treatment (therapy) for their politically contested approach to masculinity actually improves their success rate in pursuing their own or society's goals? And how will these detoxified men perform in a collapsing world? I think they will do much better. I guess we will all find out together.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 1:58 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
When the crops fail and the lights go out, we will all need to rely on community much more, and it doesn't seem like the misogyny-social-media complex is going to churn out sigma-winners or whatever ridiculous branding they have now.
Do we have evidence that training boys to perform public emotional displays and undergo medical treatment (therapy) for their politically contested approach to masculinity actually improves their success rate in pursuing their own or society's goals? And how will these detoxified men perform in a collapsing world? I think they will do much better. I guess we will all find out together.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 1:58 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
All I want to say is that it is in no way the responsibility of women to fix, educate or include men. Thank you.
You know, I used to feel that way, as a reaction to having spent my life told it was my job to fix men. But now that I’ve gotten a little older and seen the societal consequences of leaving men to their own devices, I feel that while it is not my *exclusive* job to fix men, that part of my job as a human in life is to fix societal problems, and one of those societal problems is what’s happening to men right now, so it is partially my job to at least try to come up with solutions.
posted by corb at 3:46 AM on June 6 [49 favorites]
You know, I used to feel that way, as a reaction to having spent my life told it was my job to fix men. But now that I’ve gotten a little older and seen the societal consequences of leaving men to their own devices, I feel that while it is not my *exclusive* job to fix men, that part of my job as a human in life is to fix societal problems, and one of those societal problems is what’s happening to men right now, so it is partially my job to at least try to come up with solutions.
posted by corb at 3:46 AM on June 6 [49 favorites]
What is the takeaway then? There appear to be mixed reviews on the subject judging by this thread.
As for the kid, why would my child be witnessing me have conversations about emotions with anyone? That’s not parenting. You don’t dump your feelings on your kids or in front of your kids. They’re kids.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 3:53 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
As for the kid, why would my child be witnessing me have conversations about emotions with anyone? That’s not parenting. You don’t dump your feelings on your kids or in front of your kids. They’re kids.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 3:53 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I think it's up to men to fix masculinity. That's my point. I'm not saying masculinity isn't broken; masculinity is broken. But when I see a flood of comments that are essentially, "Why are you blaming feminists for this," I think it's a legit point. I don't think women broke masculinity and I don't think it's up to women to fix masculinity. It's up to men. I identify as a man. This stuff makes me sad.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:01 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:01 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
You show your kids how to deal with difficult things as a role model - by dealing with them yourself calmly and positively. You show the coping strategy. Don’t hide the struggles. Manage them.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:01 AM on June 6 [22 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:01 AM on June 6 [22 favorites]
I think it can be quite healthy for children to learn that adults have feelings too. I know I was witness to my parents having and talking emotions when I was a kid (several of my aunts and uncles passed away when I was between 3 and 8) and subsequent conversations with my parents and other adults in my life about that. I don't think it's good for children to see their parents as emotionless stoics - it can be one way of sending the message that repressing your feelings is what it means to be an adult (or a man).
posted by Dysk at 4:01 AM on June 6 [16 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:01 AM on June 6 [16 favorites]
So much of socializing and raising boys is done by women that the solution for boys can’t just be the domain of men. That’s just as silly as saying that men have no role in raising daughters.
We all have responsibility to trying to make a better world with less suffering for those in it.
We all also have values and preferences that were instilled by our upbringing and continued existence in this imperfect world. These can often be in conflict with our political beliefs or the angels of our better natures. I don’t know what I do about that let alone everybody.
I think this gets into “stopping patterns of the past”. For very stark things like “I’m not going to hit my kids” it’s obvious when you fail. However for things like signaling to boys that they can be mad or stoic and not any other way it’s hard to not send that signal sometimes. The best I think we can do is counter program and interrogate what parts of what we do, even in jest, sends the wrong signals to all our kids.
YMMV
posted by creiszhanson at 5:32 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
We all have responsibility to trying to make a better world with less suffering for those in it.
We all also have values and preferences that were instilled by our upbringing and continued existence in this imperfect world. These can often be in conflict with our political beliefs or the angels of our better natures. I don’t know what I do about that let alone everybody.
I think this gets into “stopping patterns of the past”. For very stark things like “I’m not going to hit my kids” it’s obvious when you fail. However for things like signaling to boys that they can be mad or stoic and not any other way it’s hard to not send that signal sometimes. The best I think we can do is counter program and interrogate what parts of what we do, even in jest, sends the wrong signals to all our kids.
YMMV
posted by creiszhanson at 5:32 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
Talking about feelings is important! Especially if your kid happens to be neurodivergent. Not talking about feelings with kids is about as sensible as "if we don't tell them about sex they won't have any."
I've enjoyed this thread personally. The only thing I would add that I haven't seen here yet is the importance of increasing gender diversity in education, especially in elementary school. People need to see themselves in the people who are showing them how to be, along every axis. Elementary school is where most of the formal feelings education happens, and the gender balance in K-12 favors women at all levels, but especially in elementary school: see NCES data (most recent available on this question is from 2017-18).
Raise your sons to teach kindergarten!
posted by eirias at 5:39 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
I've enjoyed this thread personally. The only thing I would add that I haven't seen here yet is the importance of increasing gender diversity in education, especially in elementary school. People need to see themselves in the people who are showing them how to be, along every axis. Elementary school is where most of the formal feelings education happens, and the gender balance in K-12 favors women at all levels, but especially in elementary school: see NCES data (most recent available on this question is from 2017-18).
Raise your sons to teach kindergarten!
posted by eirias at 5:39 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
I am... enjoying is not the right word, but very engaged in this thread, and I'd like to thank you all for sharing your experiences and emotions in this space. Hugs, fist-bumps, shoulder pats,high-fives, or whatever physical affirmations of affection you prefer to you all.
As a parent to a 5th grade kid in a suburban public school, social-emotional learning has been and is a huge part of the school curriculum to the point it's just called "SEL" (pronounced like the verb 'sell').
My observation is that the boys are equally adept as girls in a classroom setting but are more likely to fall back on more 'traditional' behavior patterns outside of the classroom. I'm curious to see if this pattern continues in middle/high school environments, and anxious to see how my kid's cohort handles adolescence and aging into adulthood. I hope that the SEL work taught early has been internalized enough to avoid the gaping-hole experiences verbalized up-thread.
posted by eriphyle at 6:03 AM on June 6 [10 favorites]
As a parent to a 5th grade kid in a suburban public school, social-emotional learning has been and is a huge part of the school curriculum to the point it's just called "SEL" (pronounced like the verb 'sell').
My observation is that the boys are equally adept as girls in a classroom setting but are more likely to fall back on more 'traditional' behavior patterns outside of the classroom. I'm curious to see if this pattern continues in middle/high school environments, and anxious to see how my kid's cohort handles adolescence and aging into adulthood. I hope that the SEL work taught early has been internalized enough to avoid the gaping-hole experiences verbalized up-thread.
posted by eriphyle at 6:03 AM on June 6 [10 favorites]
Two of the math courses I teach (university level) are for students who want to go into elementary education and need more (or more directly relevant) math credits. The students in these course are almost exclusively women - some are all women, sometimes there’s one male student; once or twice I had two male students starting out, but only one who finished the course. Children have less power than adults, even cis male young children versus cis women adults, so it is absolutely the responsibility of the adults in kids’ lives to listen to children and help them develop their emotional skills. Regardless of the gender of the adult.
The university students I teach haven’t started their education programs yet, so hopefully they learn more before they begin teaching. But they for sure have a lot of internalized patriarchal attitudes and although it’s explicitly not my job (I’m supposed to stick to teaching them math, since that’s my area of professional expertise), I worry about how they will be as teachers (while at the same time worrying for them, going into what is often a fairly exploitative career path). We all are awash in internalized patriarchy, of course: for example, research on gender equity in math and science education has shown that even teachers who try to enact gender equity eg. in calling on students in classes often don’t, without an intervention involving recording their classes and specifically measuring time spent in different demographics of students, followed up by a specific remediation plan designed in consultation with experts in that area, with check-ins to see how the plan is going and help problem-solve any obstacles from a non-punitive, supportive position. That is, it’s not necessarily enough to be well-intentioned; parents, teachers, and other adults who work with kids need access to education about specific strategies to support gender equitable parenting/teaching/coaching/etc., and effective support in practicing those strategies.
And, as another commenter mentioned above, everyone who is trying to raise healthy kids of all genders is doing so in the context of cultural and institutional systems that are actively working against that goal. Elementary educators, in particular, are some of the worst-paid and most under-resourced in at least North America.
(Blaming feminists or progressives or whatever is a bit of a red herring. The underlying problem is heteronormative patriarchal white supremacy, but there is way more than enough of it to go around - we’re not yet at the point where there are ideal feminists or progressives who were raised entirely without such influences and can perfectly instantiate their idealized values. It’s much more useful to identify the cultural and structural obstacles and how we can best work together to overcome them than to worry about assigning individual blame.)
posted by eviemath at 6:21 AM on June 6 [14 favorites]
The university students I teach haven’t started their education programs yet, so hopefully they learn more before they begin teaching. But they for sure have a lot of internalized patriarchal attitudes and although it’s explicitly not my job (I’m supposed to stick to teaching them math, since that’s my area of professional expertise), I worry about how they will be as teachers (while at the same time worrying for them, going into what is often a fairly exploitative career path). We all are awash in internalized patriarchy, of course: for example, research on gender equity in math and science education has shown that even teachers who try to enact gender equity eg. in calling on students in classes often don’t, without an intervention involving recording their classes and specifically measuring time spent in different demographics of students, followed up by a specific remediation plan designed in consultation with experts in that area, with check-ins to see how the plan is going and help problem-solve any obstacles from a non-punitive, supportive position. That is, it’s not necessarily enough to be well-intentioned; parents, teachers, and other adults who work with kids need access to education about specific strategies to support gender equitable parenting/teaching/coaching/etc., and effective support in practicing those strategies.
And, as another commenter mentioned above, everyone who is trying to raise healthy kids of all genders is doing so in the context of cultural and institutional systems that are actively working against that goal. Elementary educators, in particular, are some of the worst-paid and most under-resourced in at least North America.
(Blaming feminists or progressives or whatever is a bit of a red herring. The underlying problem is heteronormative patriarchal white supremacy, but there is way more than enough of it to go around - we’re not yet at the point where there are ideal feminists or progressives who were raised entirely without such influences and can perfectly instantiate their idealized values. It’s much more useful to identify the cultural and structural obstacles and how we can best work together to overcome them than to worry about assigning individual blame.)
posted by eviemath at 6:21 AM on June 6 [14 favorites]
I’ve taught preschool myself, hard as it is to believe. I had a whole life before I adopted the persona of the engineer.
But upon review of the EL thread and this one I still get the message that men should take care of themselves and others if possible but not ask women for anything because they are done taking care of men. Also don’t ask them if they are done because even asking imposes emotional labor on them. It’s not their job to say no, it’s men’s job to not ask.
So I work with women and spend time with women as friends and we talk about technical matters and fun things and nobody gets to hear how I actually feel about anything. I don’t call attention to that because that would also be the imposition of emotional labor.
Is Tiny Monster going to pick up on that? I don’t know. I think he’d have started talking by now if he were ever going to so what, if anything, he picks up from me may always be a bit of a mystery.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:21 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
But upon review of the EL thread and this one I still get the message that men should take care of themselves and others if possible but not ask women for anything because they are done taking care of men. Also don’t ask them if they are done because even asking imposes emotional labor on them. It’s not their job to say no, it’s men’s job to not ask.
So I work with women and spend time with women as friends and we talk about technical matters and fun things and nobody gets to hear how I actually feel about anything. I don’t call attention to that because that would also be the imposition of emotional labor.
Is Tiny Monster going to pick up on that? I don’t know. I think he’d have started talking by now if he were ever going to so what, if anything, he picks up from me may always be a bit of a mystery.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:21 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
Your power relationship to (most, if not all of) the women in your life is very different from your young son’s power relationship to those same women, or other adult women in his life, however. And yes, that’s a detail that folks who parent or work with kids need to be prepared to discuss. I don’t know very many people of any age who have too much difficulty with the distinctions between peer-to-peer versus adult-child or boss-employee or similar relationships with formalized power differentials, however. (Not in our current, fairly hierarchically structured society.) So I don’t think you need to over-think that one too much.
posted by eviemath at 6:28 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:28 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
sockerpup, I don't want to pry, but if you feel like answering, I'd really like to know which one that was.
The Heart asks Pleasure—first—
And then—Excuse from Pain—
And then—those little Anodynes
That deaden suffering—
And then—to go to sleep—
And then—if it should be
The will of its Inquisitor
The privilege to die—
posted by sockerpup at 6:47 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
The Heart asks Pleasure—first—
And then—Excuse from Pain—
And then—those little Anodynes
That deaden suffering—
And then—to go to sleep—
And then—if it should be
The will of its Inquisitor
The privilege to die—
posted by sockerpup at 6:47 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
I think some people are rushing in here with misguided advice because, well, there's the stereotype of men who rush in to the Problem That Must Be Solved.
I'm like that too so no judgment, but yes check first to make sure you're not shaming anyone.
posted by sockerpup at 6:50 AM on June 6
I'm like that too so no judgment, but yes check first to make sure you're not shaming anyone.
posted by sockerpup at 6:50 AM on June 6
What I'm getting out of this is that people are afraid (maybe even unconsciously afraid) to read the room and are replacing room-reading with internet rubrics. Of course men should not randomly burden women with emotional labor or have friendships where the friend labor is obviously disproportionate/gendered, but as a broad generality, if you have a close friendship with someone, they will want to know about your problems and feelings.
This does, however, require reading the room and building that friendship, and that is legitimately difficult and scary and time-consuming and also hard to do as a busy adult, so we tend to fall back on internet rubrics because they are straightforward and told to us in firm tones.
I'm a transmasculine person, but much more on the nerdy/femmey side than the conventionally masculine side. I've got four close to fairly close male friends I made before I realized that I was trans. I don't find hearing about their feelings to be a giant burden or imposition. Sometimes, I can't be as present as I'd like because I'm also going through stuff, but that isn't because I think "oh why must these MEN be telling me their feelings".
Things that are in place:
- We have real friendships. We spend time together or talk somewhat regularly depending on our schedules, and I feel confident that if we don't talk for a while, it's because we're both busy and we'd like to talk. One of us might need to initiate hang-outs more often, but the other responds with enthusiasm
- We have known each other for a while and the emotional closeness developed over time. It's not that we talked robotically about rational things until a certain point was reached, but we did sort of get a sense of each other as we went - it's a relationship, like dating is a relationship
- We share values. No one is going to feelings-dump about how they actually hate women or how it's "woke" to be against domestic violence or how horrible it is to have to work with immigrants, etc
I think that if you have genuine friendships with women and you feel that you'd like to share more about your inner life, you should try to do that.
I've found, by the way, that the arts are a great way to open up friendships with men - talking about books you've both read, going to a museum, watching movies that maybe aren't nonstop feelings-fests but that go beyond just, like, a heist comedy, etc. That's an easy way to start talking about feelings and emotional values in general, so it bridges between "we always talk about work and science" and "here is how I feel about my break-up". You can strengthen a shared connection by talking about shared values about emotional things in general and go on from there.
Also: this is not women's fault or women's burden to fix. I think there's a background assumption that specific men feel that they can't talk about their feelings with specific women because those specific women are at fault in some way, and that's what people are picking up on here.
Women who actually say, "no, don't burden me with your feelings" are either being really honest or kind of assholes, and are probably not good choices for close friends.
If you have friendships with women and you would like to establish greater emotional intimacy, it is not on the women to pick up on this and elicit your feelings, because how could it be? You have to take that risk of nudging things along to talk about what you're feeling. That's something that only you can do in a fair and equal relationship.
What's holding you back is the cop inside your head, not your women friends (again, unless they specifically told you to shut up, in which case, you need different friends). It's the patriarchy in your head which says, "no one wants to hear about my feelings".
It can change a relationship when greater emotional intimacy is established, and this may take some negotiation/actual talking. When my dad started opening up about feelings more, yes, sometimes it seemed scary because he never did this in the past and I had always grown up with him as the decider/authority who wasn't questioned, so yes, that was a change. But it wasn't a bad change, or a change I didn't want. People do react to change - if everyone is always used to you being a silent rock, they will notice if you change. But people who care about you will change with you!
Also, just friends opening up about their feelings frankly was an uncomplicated good. Family, because it's more intimate and there's a longer history, takes some thinking through. But that doesn't mean it's bad.
posted by Frowner at 7:04 AM on June 6 [25 favorites]
This does, however, require reading the room and building that friendship, and that is legitimately difficult and scary and time-consuming and also hard to do as a busy adult, so we tend to fall back on internet rubrics because they are straightforward and told to us in firm tones.
I'm a transmasculine person, but much more on the nerdy/femmey side than the conventionally masculine side. I've got four close to fairly close male friends I made before I realized that I was trans. I don't find hearing about their feelings to be a giant burden or imposition. Sometimes, I can't be as present as I'd like because I'm also going through stuff, but that isn't because I think "oh why must these MEN be telling me their feelings".
Things that are in place:
- We have real friendships. We spend time together or talk somewhat regularly depending on our schedules, and I feel confident that if we don't talk for a while, it's because we're both busy and we'd like to talk. One of us might need to initiate hang-outs more often, but the other responds with enthusiasm
- We have known each other for a while and the emotional closeness developed over time. It's not that we talked robotically about rational things until a certain point was reached, but we did sort of get a sense of each other as we went - it's a relationship, like dating is a relationship
- We share values. No one is going to feelings-dump about how they actually hate women or how it's "woke" to be against domestic violence or how horrible it is to have to work with immigrants, etc
I think that if you have genuine friendships with women and you feel that you'd like to share more about your inner life, you should try to do that.
I've found, by the way, that the arts are a great way to open up friendships with men - talking about books you've both read, going to a museum, watching movies that maybe aren't nonstop feelings-fests but that go beyond just, like, a heist comedy, etc. That's an easy way to start talking about feelings and emotional values in general, so it bridges between "we always talk about work and science" and "here is how I feel about my break-up". You can strengthen a shared connection by talking about shared values about emotional things in general and go on from there.
Also: this is not women's fault or women's burden to fix. I think there's a background assumption that specific men feel that they can't talk about their feelings with specific women because those specific women are at fault in some way, and that's what people are picking up on here.
Women who actually say, "no, don't burden me with your feelings" are either being really honest or kind of assholes, and are probably not good choices for close friends.
If you have friendships with women and you would like to establish greater emotional intimacy, it is not on the women to pick up on this and elicit your feelings, because how could it be? You have to take that risk of nudging things along to talk about what you're feeling. That's something that only you can do in a fair and equal relationship.
What's holding you back is the cop inside your head, not your women friends (again, unless they specifically told you to shut up, in which case, you need different friends). It's the patriarchy in your head which says, "no one wants to hear about my feelings".
It can change a relationship when greater emotional intimacy is established, and this may take some negotiation/actual talking. When my dad started opening up about feelings more, yes, sometimes it seemed scary because he never did this in the past and I had always grown up with him as the decider/authority who wasn't questioned, so yes, that was a change. But it wasn't a bad change, or a change I didn't want. People do react to change - if everyone is always used to you being a silent rock, they will notice if you change. But people who care about you will change with you!
Also, just friends opening up about their feelings frankly was an uncomplicated good. Family, because it's more intimate and there's a longer history, takes some thinking through. But that doesn't mean it's bad.
posted by Frowner at 7:04 AM on June 6 [25 favorites]
I hear you, The Monster at the End of of this Thread.
Sometimes - and especially if you spend a lot of time in spaces like the Emotional Labour thread, or Metafilter at large - it's very clearly communicated that the mere presence of a man with feelings is an imposition on others. To ask other people to interact with you is to place the burden of saying no on to them, and that, too, is an imposition. And the worst thing one can do is impose on others, isn't it? Because they're tired, and it's not their problem, and don't you know it's on men to fix themselves?
posted by sagc at 7:05 AM on June 6 [18 favorites]
Sometimes - and especially if you spend a lot of time in spaces like the Emotional Labour thread, or Metafilter at large - it's very clearly communicated that the mere presence of a man with feelings is an imposition on others. To ask other people to interact with you is to place the burden of saying no on to them, and that, too, is an imposition. And the worst thing one can do is impose on others, isn't it? Because they're tired, and it's not their problem, and don't you know it's on men to fix themselves?
posted by sagc at 7:05 AM on June 6 [18 favorites]
Progressive spaces built the cop inside my head.
posted by sagc at 7:06 AM on June 6 [13 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:06 AM on June 6 [13 favorites]
But let's not forget that patriarchy set the laws!
posted by jonnay at 7:15 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
posted by jonnay at 7:15 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
When one of my sexual assailants, a former friend, decided to tell stories from my life on a text-based community message board, getting the details wrong, but still including my real first name and other identifiers, from behind a screen name, I was much too upset to be of much use at my peer support gig. I took my troubles to the local food banks’ peer support operation, where a male worker listened to me and then pointed out it would be so much worse for me if I wasn’t white and male.
I am grateful, brook horse, for your contributions to this conversation. I’m heartened that it continues to pop up in the unlikeliest of places.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 7:16 AM on June 6 [13 favorites]
I am grateful, brook horse, for your contributions to this conversation. I’m heartened that it continues to pop up in the unlikeliest of places.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 7:16 AM on June 6 [13 favorites]
Also, I think people aren't afraid of reading the room, they're afraid of getting it wrong, and then becoming judged as intentionally harmful. And again, the more time you spend in spaces like MeFi, the more time you're going to spend stories people tell of when someone failed to read the room and it harmed them. Who would want to cause harm?
posted by sagc at 7:18 AM on June 6 [12 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:18 AM on June 6 [12 favorites]
I think that’s what the pull quote at the top of the thread was getting at. These boys already have two cops in their heads and red cop and blue cop are both threatening to beat them if they talk about their feelings. Maybe neither cop is real but the effect doesn’t change.
I talked about this with my wife a bit last night and it’s interesting that her impression of Gen Z, mostly from TikTok and YouTube and our nephew and niece, is that they’re open and sociable and in touch with their feelings. My impression of Gen Z, mostly from Reddit, Twitter, 4Chan, different corners of YouTube, and the same nephew and niece, is that most of them are not OK.
I think part of it is just sampling. Young people who hide behind a keyboard are different from young people who step in front of a camera.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:21 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
I talked about this with my wife a bit last night and it’s interesting that her impression of Gen Z, mostly from TikTok and YouTube and our nephew and niece, is that they’re open and sociable and in touch with their feelings. My impression of Gen Z, mostly from Reddit, Twitter, 4Chan, different corners of YouTube, and the same nephew and niece, is that most of them are not OK.
I think part of it is just sampling. Young people who hide behind a keyboard are different from young people who step in front of a camera.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:21 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
What's holding you back is the cop inside your head, not your women friends (again, unless they specifically told you to shut up, in which case, you need different friends). It's the patriarchy in your head which says, "no one wants to hear about my feelings".
Many women get very uncomfortable when men share their feelings even if they are not telling them actively to shut up. I have actively seen women react negatively to emotional expression that is accepted or even encouraged in women. The obvious example is anger. In mental health groups, men talking about their anger or god forbid raising their voices (not at anyone in the group) is met with a flurry of “that made me so uncomfortable” and “I don’t feel safe around him now.” Women talking about the same, and even screaming and yelling at staff, often doesn’t elicit the same response.
Is this a fair response to trauma (the emotional reaction, not necessarily the behavior)? Sure. Is it understandable and reasonable that women are afraid around men expressing any kind of anger? Yeah. Does it also disproportionately impact men’s ability to share their emotions? Yes. It’s not made up. It’s not in our heads.
And it’s not just friends—it’s teachers, it’s coworkers, it’s bosses, it’s family, it’s all sorts of people you can’t get away from. And also, as a trans man, I have some really good female friends who I love and trust whose reactions to my emotions changed when I came out. It was absolutely not intentional, but it is a very ingrained reaction that doesn’t magically disappear just because you’re a feminist or even when you’re a good friend. They just don’t talk about my emotions with me the same way viewing me as a man. And I’m not abandoning my friends because of that, we are still close, just not in the same way as before. So I’m looking for people I can share my emotions more deeply with, but both my career and hobbies are extremely female dominated, so it takes a lot of extra effort.
posted by brook horse at 7:25 AM on June 6 [38 favorites]
Many women get very uncomfortable when men share their feelings even if they are not telling them actively to shut up. I have actively seen women react negatively to emotional expression that is accepted or even encouraged in women. The obvious example is anger. In mental health groups, men talking about their anger or god forbid raising their voices (not at anyone in the group) is met with a flurry of “that made me so uncomfortable” and “I don’t feel safe around him now.” Women talking about the same, and even screaming and yelling at staff, often doesn’t elicit the same response.
Is this a fair response to trauma (the emotional reaction, not necessarily the behavior)? Sure. Is it understandable and reasonable that women are afraid around men expressing any kind of anger? Yeah. Does it also disproportionately impact men’s ability to share their emotions? Yes. It’s not made up. It’s not in our heads.
And it’s not just friends—it’s teachers, it’s coworkers, it’s bosses, it’s family, it’s all sorts of people you can’t get away from. And also, as a trans man, I have some really good female friends who I love and trust whose reactions to my emotions changed when I came out. It was absolutely not intentional, but it is a very ingrained reaction that doesn’t magically disappear just because you’re a feminist or even when you’re a good friend. They just don’t talk about my emotions with me the same way viewing me as a man. And I’m not abandoning my friends because of that, we are still close, just not in the same way as before. So I’m looking for people I can share my emotions more deeply with, but both my career and hobbies are extremely female dominated, so it takes a lot of extra effort.
posted by brook horse at 7:25 AM on June 6 [38 favorites]
A thing about Metafilter is that over time, I build up an impression of who various people are, and it's based only on what they say, (and maybe their username) instead of avatar image, bio, etc.
And I hope it's not out of line for me to say that Frowner, you have such strong kind dad or thoughtful older brother energy, I always appreciate your clearly articulated and insightful comments.
As a nonbinary person who's married to a man, I'm particularly interested in this "if someone shares their problems with me, that means they want me to fix those problems" thing.
It's a stereotype of male interaction, right? Women commiserate, men go straight to "well maybe you should..."?
(weirdly, also an autistic thing, not sure if that's related)
It's definitely a problem that me and my husband have at times. Does it come from the idea that the masculine version of caring is all about practical solutions, guarding, providing for, instead of nurturing and healing, which are seen to be more feminine?
posted by Zumbador at 7:27 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
And I hope it's not out of line for me to say that Frowner, you have such strong kind dad or thoughtful older brother energy, I always appreciate your clearly articulated and insightful comments.
As a nonbinary person who's married to a man, I'm particularly interested in this "if someone shares their problems with me, that means they want me to fix those problems" thing.
It's a stereotype of male interaction, right? Women commiserate, men go straight to "well maybe you should..."?
(weirdly, also an autistic thing, not sure if that's related)
It's definitely a problem that me and my husband have at times. Does it come from the idea that the masculine version of caring is all about practical solutions, guarding, providing for, instead of nurturing and healing, which are seen to be more feminine?
posted by Zumbador at 7:27 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
Blaming feminists or progressives or whatever is a bit of a red herring. The underlying problem is heteronormative patriarchal white supremacy, but there is way more than enough of it to go around - we’re not yet at the point where there are ideal feminists or progressives who were raised entirely without such influences and can perfectly instantiate their idealized values. It’s much more useful to identify the cultural and structural obstacles and how we can best work together to overcome them than to worry about assigning individual blame
While I broadly agree with this point, I think it's actually because I believe I am most likely to be heard by those who I am closely aligned with (feminist/leftist/progressive spaces) that I want to call out those areas as not, I think, aligning with what would be most helpful or what I think would be more idealized values. It's not that I think this is feminists' fault, or progressives' fault, so much as that I think we all bear both the blame and the struggle of not doing better, but I don't know how helpful it is for me to critique areas I'm not a part of.
This does, however, require reading the room and building that friendship, and that is legitimately difficult and scary and time-consuming and also hard to do as a busy adult
You know, we've all spent so long on Metafilter that we expect "reading the room" to be a thing people can and should do normatively. But I think it's worth pointing out that "reading the room" is particularly hard for autistic people, or people who don't have a lot of experience or skill at recognizing facial expressions and intonations. And I think that if we are to be truly inclusive, then we need to find a way to make space for people who have difficulty with "just look at the emotional nuance and figure out what the right thing to do is". We need to provide some basic scripts for appropriate interaction. We need to provide some questions that people can ask to check in on emotional levels and correct themselves. And we need to add some tolerance as people are trying.
And even though it is a common way to build friendships, I also don't think that "just start out with sharing values" is super helpful. We have got to create some kind of pathway for people of different values to communicate appropriately, because the alternative is not fully understanding how to model the other people and making decisions that hurt those people and exacerbating the problem.
posted by corb at 7:29 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
While I broadly agree with this point, I think it's actually because I believe I am most likely to be heard by those who I am closely aligned with (feminist/leftist/progressive spaces) that I want to call out those areas as not, I think, aligning with what would be most helpful or what I think would be more idealized values. It's not that I think this is feminists' fault, or progressives' fault, so much as that I think we all bear both the blame and the struggle of not doing better, but I don't know how helpful it is for me to critique areas I'm not a part of.
This does, however, require reading the room and building that friendship, and that is legitimately difficult and scary and time-consuming and also hard to do as a busy adult
You know, we've all spent so long on Metafilter that we expect "reading the room" to be a thing people can and should do normatively. But I think it's worth pointing out that "reading the room" is particularly hard for autistic people, or people who don't have a lot of experience or skill at recognizing facial expressions and intonations. And I think that if we are to be truly inclusive, then we need to find a way to make space for people who have difficulty with "just look at the emotional nuance and figure out what the right thing to do is". We need to provide some basic scripts for appropriate interaction. We need to provide some questions that people can ask to check in on emotional levels and correct themselves. And we need to add some tolerance as people are trying.
And even though it is a common way to build friendships, I also don't think that "just start out with sharing values" is super helpful. We have got to create some kind of pathway for people of different values to communicate appropriately, because the alternative is not fully understanding how to model the other people and making decisions that hurt those people and exacerbating the problem.
posted by corb at 7:29 AM on June 6 [17 favorites]
Zumbador, what you've shared seems pretty accurate to me
my time with my local union has helped me realize that there is value in just bearing witness: listening, expressing sympathy. because gods know I can't find solutions to every single issue
some of my worst qualities stem from the deeply embedded notion I need to solve or fix things, not only in how that projects outward but in the countless little ways I'm wielding it inwards at myself.. because so much of life is definitely solving problems and taking care of things, that's just how we get through life, but there's a lot of accepting and moving on. Not too sure men are great at that, I think it manifests in emotional immaturity among young males especially. They think they have all the answers, but they're also terrified about everything they can't possibly know or do, and they do stupid shit and act out to compensate. rinse and repeat
posted by elkevelvet at 7:32 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
my time with my local union has helped me realize that there is value in just bearing witness: listening, expressing sympathy. because gods know I can't find solutions to every single issue
some of my worst qualities stem from the deeply embedded notion I need to solve or fix things, not only in how that projects outward but in the countless little ways I'm wielding it inwards at myself.. because so much of life is definitely solving problems and taking care of things, that's just how we get through life, but there's a lot of accepting and moving on. Not too sure men are great at that, I think it manifests in emotional immaturity among young males especially. They think they have all the answers, but they're also terrified about everything they can't possibly know or do, and they do stupid shit and act out to compensate. rinse and repeat
posted by elkevelvet at 7:32 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
It was absolutely not intentional, but it is a very ingrained reaction that doesn’t magically disappear just because you’re a feminist or even when you’re a good friend. They just don’t talk about my emotions with me the same way viewing me as a man. And I’m not abandoning my friends because of that, we are still close, just not in the same way as before. So I’m looking for people I can share my emotions more deeply with, but both my career and hobbies are extremely female dominated, so it takes a lot of extra effort.
Have you brought this up with them specifically and it hasn't changed anything? Maybe my experience is just weird - that would not be the first time. I also believed that "men should be tall, anything under 6 feet is short" was just obvious internet bullshit and lies because it is so outside my experience, but apparently there are many people in the real world who believe this.
posted by Frowner at 7:40 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
Have you brought this up with them specifically and it hasn't changed anything? Maybe my experience is just weird - that would not be the first time. I also believed that "men should be tall, anything under 6 feet is short" was just obvious internet bullshit and lies because it is so outside my experience, but apparently there are many people in the real world who believe this.
posted by Frowner at 7:40 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
I think it's good to remember that in online spaces, people often dip into talking in the abstract - I think this can be especially true when a new concept is introduced, like emotional labor, that produces a lightbulb moment in many people - "ah, this explains so much!" Sometimes in these moments people are more likely to feel emotional raw and vent - part of being a human (I think) is being able to know when to take things people say with a bit of a grain of salt - like, I remember getting into a small fight with my partner about something gender related during the Christine Blasey Ford hearing, and while yeah, he had done something not ideal, the scale of my reaction was misplaced and I owed him an apology. So, anyone in the emotional labor thread saying things like "I'm done with men expecting me to do emotional labor for them!" was likely venting, and it's a gesture of empathy to assume they were venting out of genuine stress. But that doesn't mean you should absorb it as capital T truth.
But sort of to sagc's point, it's been my observation (so, not quantifiable) that while women on Twitter are more likely to be the target of regular vitriol, it's rarely from people they might consider their peers, at least not at a large scale (i.e. occasional disrespect/meanness from an individual or two). Still upsetting and scary, but the one time something I had tweeted went semi-viral and the misogynist trolls found me, it was an alarming blocking spree but I didn't consider it a loss. Whereas the "main characters" I've seen get publicly shamed on Twitter by people they'd consider their peers have been mostly men - not exclusively, I can think of exceptions - but I think a lot of people feel (perhaps unconsciously) more comfortable joining in a mob when it's directed at a guy. Perhaps because we still live in a patriarchy many assume "boys and men are fine, they can handle [x]," which can have consequences even at a small scale (like in a classroom), but can be dangerous in the era of virality.
posted by coffeecat at 7:51 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
But sort of to sagc's point, it's been my observation (so, not quantifiable) that while women on Twitter are more likely to be the target of regular vitriol, it's rarely from people they might consider their peers, at least not at a large scale (i.e. occasional disrespect/meanness from an individual or two). Still upsetting and scary, but the one time something I had tweeted went semi-viral and the misogynist trolls found me, it was an alarming blocking spree but I didn't consider it a loss. Whereas the "main characters" I've seen get publicly shamed on Twitter by people they'd consider their peers have been mostly men - not exclusively, I can think of exceptions - but I think a lot of people feel (perhaps unconsciously) more comfortable joining in a mob when it's directed at a guy. Perhaps because we still live in a patriarchy many assume "boys and men are fine, they can handle [x]," which can have consequences even at a small scale (like in a classroom), but can be dangerous in the era of virality.
posted by coffeecat at 7:51 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
Have you brought this up with them specifically and it hasn't changed anything? Maybe my experience is just weird - that would not be the first time. I also believed that "men should be tall, anything under 6 feet is short" was just obvious internet bullshit and lies because it is so outside my experience, but apparently there are many people in the real world who believe this.
I’m not going to play-by-play my relationships, but yes we’ve talked about it. I’m also not the only transmasculine person in my friend group this has happened to.
You mentioned up thread that you’re transmasculine but much more on the “nerdy/femme” side. Some context that might help is I am six feet tall and over 200 lbs (so: a build people associate with men more than women), and I dress and cut my hair in traditionally masculine styles. I don’t pass as a man due to a completely unhideable chest, but I am definitely “read” as very butch. I have also heard butch women describe a similar reaction to their exploration of masculinity. Many trans men have described how this experiences happens the more masculinely they have presented.
posted by brook horse at 8:00 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
I’m not going to play-by-play my relationships, but yes we’ve talked about it. I’m also not the only transmasculine person in my friend group this has happened to.
You mentioned up thread that you’re transmasculine but much more on the “nerdy/femme” side. Some context that might help is I am six feet tall and over 200 lbs (so: a build people associate with men more than women), and I dress and cut my hair in traditionally masculine styles. I don’t pass as a man due to a completely unhideable chest, but I am definitely “read” as very butch. I have also heard butch women describe a similar reaction to their exploration of masculinity. Many trans men have described how this experiences happens the more masculinely they have presented.
posted by brook horse at 8:00 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
Apropos of nothing: the Awkward Yeti/Heart and Brain comic addresses these issues a lot, including this one (the one where the big scary Emotion comes sniffing around).
posted by sockerpup at 8:08 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
posted by sockerpup at 8:08 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
As for the kid, why would my child be witnessing me have conversations about emotions with anyone?
sir children also see who you do not talk to and how you talk to everyone
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:27 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
sir children also see who you do not talk to and how you talk to everyone
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:27 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
Does it come from the idea that the masculine version of caring is all about practical solutions, guarding, providing for, instead of nurturing and healing, which are seen to be more feminine?
well, yes, and we are socialized to enact those ideas every day in our interactions with all kinds of people. there’s a reason there is a shortage of men working as therapists and preschool teachers (for ex.) and it’s not because they don’t have the range.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:38 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
well, yes, and we are socialized to enact those ideas every day in our interactions with all kinds of people. there’s a reason there is a shortage of men working as therapists and preschool teachers (for ex.) and it’s not because they don’t have the range.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:38 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
So a child should see a parent tell a friend about his pains and anxieties and fears? That’s the conversation to have with kids in the room? No.
I’m not on board with that. That conversation happens after bedtime.
Dad, as a fixture in a child’s life, isn’t a person the way the child and his friends are. Dad doesn’t wonder where the rent money is coming from or wish for swift cancer or regret not going out west to that friend’s wedding the summer before she got sick and died. Dad’s a resource, not a Very Special Episode of Bluey.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:43 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
I’m not on board with that. That conversation happens after bedtime.
Dad, as a fixture in a child’s life, isn’t a person the way the child and his friends are. Dad doesn’t wonder where the rent money is coming from or wish for swift cancer or regret not going out west to that friend’s wedding the summer before she got sick and died. Dad’s a resource, not a Very Special Episode of Bluey.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 8:43 AM on June 6 [3 favorites]
Patrick Melrose is good; if you haven't seen it, skip this comment to avoid spoilers.
I've been reading this thread and binging Patrick Melrose at the same time and learning from both. It was interesting in the context of the thread to watch the titular character petition various women at various stages of his life, sometimes for rescue and then sometimes for help to rescue himself as he matured and gained wisdom and--sometimes--the capacity to help himself. It's easy to want to rescue children saddled with abusive and neglectful parents and much harder to sympathize with adults who need rescue, but everyone, regardless of age and gender, is sometimes going to need help, and all people who need help will ask for it, some effectively, and some in ways that will ensure they will not receive it. People who are convinced they are never supposed to be in need of rescue but who are, nevertheless, in need of that exact thing, can't not express that need. It's like the infant grip reflex, except this one we never lose. Sometimes that expression is destructive and unsympathetic and doesn't look like what it is.
There are going to be good parents and bad parents among all groups and taxonomies including among feminists and progressives. But some stripes of bad parenting do in fact boot a person out of the class "progressive." Patrick Melrose's mother was known as a rescuer of children, but she pretty much deliberately abandoned her own child and other children to hideous abuse. So it's not "no true Scotsman" in that case: she was just lying about who she was. It's like self-avowed feminist men who, it later is revealed, were rapists who figured out that saying you're a feminist gives you access to more victims. That's not "no true Scotsman," it's people who are in fact not feminist saying that they are feminist.
As for the lesbian who teased and humiliated her son and then carved
The Heart asks Pleasure—first—
And then—Excuse from Pain—
And then—those little Anodynes
That deaden suffering—
And then—to go to sleep—
And then—if it should be
The will of its Inquisitor
The privilege to die—
on his gravestone. Okay, she may have been a lesbian separatist, but she was also very clearly a narcissistic monster, and that, not the lesbianism, was what made the parenting bad. Plenty of lesbians and bisexuals are going to be bad parents for boys or girls simply because parenting is impossibly hard and tends to start when we're technically but barely adults, so it's easy to say and do stupid harmful shit before you realize how stupid and harmful the shit is, but teasing your kid and telling him you hate him and then carving "not my fault, all" on his gravestone isn't specifically lesbian bad parenting; it's narcissistic monster bad parenting.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:49 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I've been reading this thread and binging Patrick Melrose at the same time and learning from both. It was interesting in the context of the thread to watch the titular character petition various women at various stages of his life, sometimes for rescue and then sometimes for help to rescue himself as he matured and gained wisdom and--sometimes--the capacity to help himself. It's easy to want to rescue children saddled with abusive and neglectful parents and much harder to sympathize with adults who need rescue, but everyone, regardless of age and gender, is sometimes going to need help, and all people who need help will ask for it, some effectively, and some in ways that will ensure they will not receive it. People who are convinced they are never supposed to be in need of rescue but who are, nevertheless, in need of that exact thing, can't not express that need. It's like the infant grip reflex, except this one we never lose. Sometimes that expression is destructive and unsympathetic and doesn't look like what it is.
There are going to be good parents and bad parents among all groups and taxonomies including among feminists and progressives. But some stripes of bad parenting do in fact boot a person out of the class "progressive." Patrick Melrose's mother was known as a rescuer of children, but she pretty much deliberately abandoned her own child and other children to hideous abuse. So it's not "no true Scotsman" in that case: she was just lying about who she was. It's like self-avowed feminist men who, it later is revealed, were rapists who figured out that saying you're a feminist gives you access to more victims. That's not "no true Scotsman," it's people who are in fact not feminist saying that they are feminist.
As for the lesbian who teased and humiliated her son and then carved
The Heart asks Pleasure—first—
And then—Excuse from Pain—
And then—those little Anodynes
That deaden suffering—
And then—to go to sleep—
And then—if it should be
The will of its Inquisitor
The privilege to die—
on his gravestone. Okay, she may have been a lesbian separatist, but she was also very clearly a narcissistic monster, and that, not the lesbianism, was what made the parenting bad. Plenty of lesbians and bisexuals are going to be bad parents for boys or girls simply because parenting is impossibly hard and tends to start when we're technically but barely adults, so it's easy to say and do stupid harmful shit before you realize how stupid and harmful the shit is, but teasing your kid and telling him you hate him and then carving "not my fault, all" on his gravestone isn't specifically lesbian bad parenting; it's narcissistic monster bad parenting.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:49 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
The Monster at the End of This Thread, I am trained in child psychology and have taught child development at the college level. You are wrong. Suppressing your emotions around your children is well-studied and known to be harmful to children. Modeling is an extremely important part of child learning, and “we don’t talk about it until the children go to bed” is not modeling healthy emotion regulation skills.
posted by brook horse at 9:19 AM on June 6 [21 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 9:19 AM on June 6 [21 favorites]
I’m not going to play-by-play my relationships, but yes we’ve talked about it. I’m also not the only transmasculine person in my friend group this has happened to.
Oh, please don't think I'm asking for proof or a play by play! I'm curious because it sounds like my experience/feelings about this are actually outliers and therefore my advice is bad or at least needs to be modified.
I'm usually read as a very butch woman or a not especially normie man (barbershop cut, men's clothes, binder, etc, but I tend toward vintage shirts and earrings) but I only truly get read as a cis man in a bad light. I'm short, though, and have a goofy/nerd affect that people pick up on immediately. I wonder how differently we read and if it's mostly down to height, which it could be.
This whole thing is making me wonder if I'm looking at this backward - how I interact with cis male friends rather than how women friends interact with me. I do know that I'm not the world's most forthcoming feelings person and went to therapy about that, but not being forthcoming about feelings is what I...uh....got from my dad...and so, um, this is really more about masculinity than I was assuming?
Anyway, thank you for your comments - they're extremely enlightening.
posted by Frowner at 9:35 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Oh, please don't think I'm asking for proof or a play by play! I'm curious because it sounds like my experience/feelings about this are actually outliers and therefore my advice is bad or at least needs to be modified.
I'm usually read as a very butch woman or a not especially normie man (barbershop cut, men's clothes, binder, etc, but I tend toward vintage shirts and earrings) but I only truly get read as a cis man in a bad light. I'm short, though, and have a goofy/nerd affect that people pick up on immediately. I wonder how differently we read and if it's mostly down to height, which it could be.
This whole thing is making me wonder if I'm looking at this backward - how I interact with cis male friends rather than how women friends interact with me. I do know that I'm not the world's most forthcoming feelings person and went to therapy about that, but not being forthcoming about feelings is what I...uh....got from my dad...and so, um, this is really more about masculinity than I was assuming?
Anyway, thank you for your comments - they're extremely enlightening.
posted by Frowner at 9:35 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
So a child should see a parent tell a friend about his pains and anxieties and fears? That’s the conversation to have with kids in the room? No.
I’m not on board with that. That conversation happens after bedtime.
you’re not getting it. kids are socialized by watching what their parents do and what their relationships are like and who cares for them and how. which grownups help them with which things. how grownups respond to them. all of that happens without expressing a single feeling in front of your child, who also sees that other adults do do that sometimes, in good and bad ways, and you do not, in good and bad ways. this is not about bad boundaries. the home is, as child psychologists say, the first school—regardless of what it is that happens there. surely you can think of stuff you noticed at home as a child?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:37 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I’m not on board with that. That conversation happens after bedtime.
you’re not getting it. kids are socialized by watching what their parents do and what their relationships are like and who cares for them and how. which grownups help them with which things. how grownups respond to them. all of that happens without expressing a single feeling in front of your child, who also sees that other adults do do that sometimes, in good and bad ways, and you do not, in good and bad ways. this is not about bad boundaries. the home is, as child psychologists say, the first school—regardless of what it is that happens there. surely you can think of stuff you noticed at home as a child?
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:37 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
I think they do get it, and are telling you what lessons they've absorbed from society. How does condescension help?
posted by sagc at 9:43 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:43 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
nah, after spending this thread making clear my great sympathy for how men are socialized and what they are given and permitted in terms of masculinity, safety, and security, i am not apologizing for being forceful that the lessons he has absorbed have given him bad information about how to parent. thanks, though!
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:46 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 9:46 AM on June 6 [1 favorite]
One of the classic parent/child bonding games is Rose, Bud, Thorn. It’s a classic for a reason: you model for the child a simple set of positive and negative emotions (joy/happiness, sorrow/upset, excitement about tomorrow) and containers to put them in. Adults playing this game with kids — which is all about disclosing your emotions! — is completely uncontroversial and it’s wild (and more than a little sad) to see assertions to the contrary.
posted by eirias at 9:59 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
posted by eirias at 9:59 AM on June 6 [9 favorites]
Dad, as a fixture in a child’s life, isn’t a person the way the child and his friends are. Dad doesn’t wonder where the rent money is coming from or wish for swift cancer or regret not going out west to that friend’s wedding the summer before she got sick and died. Dad’s a resource, not a Very Special Episode of Bluey.
I have post traumatic stress and depression. The child I raised the longest is now 21 years old. I made sure to be clear - in age-appropriate ways - about my fears and anxieties and mental health struggles. That child is now old enough to tell me, as an adult, how much they appreciated it and how it helped them when they had their own mental health struggles, to know that the mother they viewed as a near mythological creature also struggled with those things.
I modeled how to handle emotions because if I wasn’t going to teach it, who would?
Again, it’s important to be age appropriate. When I was broken up with by the love of my life when my child was in elementary school, I said “Mama is sad because her best friend doesn’t want to be her best friend anymore, and he isn’t going to spend as much time with her. That’s why mama is watching movies about being sad on TV and crying a lot and calling her other friends to have long phone calls with them.” And that was totally understandable and made sense to a kid.
Similarly, I didn’t say “I’m worried I can’t pay the electricity bill”, I said, “Mama is worried because we don’t have a lot of money, and trying to figure out how to use the money we do have to get all the things we need and then get the things that we want that we can.” And that made sense, and taught lessons about saving money they still use.
Modeling no emotions at all is only a variant on the traditional toxic masculinity of “I can have emotions but can only express them obliquely.” It is worse even than “I have emotions and sadnesses and fears, but I talk about them with my friends, not you.”
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on June 6 [35 favorites]
I have post traumatic stress and depression. The child I raised the longest is now 21 years old. I made sure to be clear - in age-appropriate ways - about my fears and anxieties and mental health struggles. That child is now old enough to tell me, as an adult, how much they appreciated it and how it helped them when they had their own mental health struggles, to know that the mother they viewed as a near mythological creature also struggled with those things.
I modeled how to handle emotions because if I wasn’t going to teach it, who would?
Again, it’s important to be age appropriate. When I was broken up with by the love of my life when my child was in elementary school, I said “Mama is sad because her best friend doesn’t want to be her best friend anymore, and he isn’t going to spend as much time with her. That’s why mama is watching movies about being sad on TV and crying a lot and calling her other friends to have long phone calls with them.” And that was totally understandable and made sense to a kid.
Similarly, I didn’t say “I’m worried I can’t pay the electricity bill”, I said, “Mama is worried because we don’t have a lot of money, and trying to figure out how to use the money we do have to get all the things we need and then get the things that we want that we can.” And that made sense, and taught lessons about saving money they still use.
Modeling no emotions at all is only a variant on the traditional toxic masculinity of “I can have emotions but can only express them obliquely.” It is worse even than “I have emotions and sadnesses and fears, but I talk about them with my friends, not you.”
posted by corb at 10:03 AM on June 6 [35 favorites]
And I should add - this isn’t your *fault* that you feel this way, but it is *tragic*, and I beg you to reconsider so that your child doesn’t repeat this cycle of heartbreak.
posted by corb at 10:04 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:04 AM on June 6 [11 favorites]
God I will take all the grar in this and every other thread today as a blessing if one dad changes his child rearing style to one based on modelling emotional caretaking of oneself and others, rather than stoicism. If Metafilter does one thing right today, let it be this.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:25 AM on June 6 [22 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:25 AM on June 6 [22 favorites]
It is your responsibility to do the same: to listen and endure the discomfort of being told you are hurting people, and to do your best to not hurt them again.
Thank you for this! I like the way this is worded and I can change the wording just a bit to relate this concept to my 6yo son!
posted by VTX at 10:43 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Thank you for this! I like the way this is worded and I can change the wording just a bit to relate this concept to my 6yo son!
posted by VTX at 10:43 AM on June 6 [4 favorites]
Similarly, I didn’t say “I’m worried I can’t pay the electricity bill”, I said, “Mama is worried because we don’t have a lot of money, and trying to figure out how to use the money we do have to get all the things we need and then get the things that we want that we can.” And that made sense, and taught lessons about saving money they still use.
I wish my parents had someone tell them this approach was an option, corb. I knew money was a major source of stress and conflict for my parents, but they wouldn't talk about it with us kids. And now I'm an adult with a whole mess of financial anxiety. I know they were doing the best with the models they were given. I wish they'd had the chance to learn there were other ways.
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:46 AM on June 6 [7 favorites]
Until I was about 30 years old or so, I too would have said something like "So a child should see a parent tell a friend about his pains and anxieties and fears? That’s the conversation to have with kids in the room? No. I’m not on board with that." One of the misconceptions I had was that there is no difference between DISCLOSING my feelings to someone vs. MAKING THEM RESPONSIBLE for my feelings (or for fixing my feelings).
Maybe if I share why and how I am overcoming this, it might help someone.
I had this misconception because I had a very inappropriate parent who disclosed far too much of their life struggles to me, emotional or otherwise, from far too young an age, and I was trying too hard not to be like them. My parent who suffered from severe mental health disorders needed me to listen to them, hold them, comfort them, pat/sing them to sleep (they had insomnia), and to participate in all their personal vendettas and frequent altercations/reconciliations with people. By the time I was a tween or a very young teen, I was writing in my diary that this was absolutely NOT the way I wanted to raise my kids. Without any concept of nuance, I vowed to myself that my kids would never know it if I was struggling, that I'd always present a calm, stable, happy, satisfied face to my children.
I think it was actually having kids and dealing with my kids every day and feeling challenged to show up for my kids in an authentic way, which taught me that it's NECESSARY to be truthful with them when I am struggling (because otherwise I would be implicitly stigmatizing struggles, showing them through my example that it was not okay to be open about struggles). Through trial and error I also learned how to share my feelings without asking for support - saying "I'm sad right now, that's why I was crying. I'll feel better later," for example, is a way to disclose feelings without asking for support.
These days my kids are teenagers, and I'm learning .... very slowly and very hesitantly .... that it's okay to ask for extra consideration and support from my kids when I am struggling, in some very limited ways like "I'm so upset about my job, ugh, I could really use a hug," or "I'm sick, honey, would you make me some tea?" Otherwise how will they learn that it's their job to support others who are struggling? How will they learn to see me (and other responsible adults) as human?
Other parents may see these things (asking for hugs, asking for tea) as a normal everyday thing in their homes, something they've taught their kids to do from a young age, a natural part of parenting. But I had to first unlearn about 15 or 20 years of constant everyday vows to myself that I would never show a crack in my facade, I would never do to my kids what my parent did to me. It takes time and hard hard work facing up to my fears and a LOT of destigmatization to overcome the absolute horror of sharing feelings with kids that I instilled for so long in myself, the terror of turning into my parent.
posted by MiraK at 10:47 AM on June 6 [26 favorites]
Maybe if I share why and how I am overcoming this, it might help someone.
I had this misconception because I had a very inappropriate parent who disclosed far too much of their life struggles to me, emotional or otherwise, from far too young an age, and I was trying too hard not to be like them. My parent who suffered from severe mental health disorders needed me to listen to them, hold them, comfort them, pat/sing them to sleep (they had insomnia), and to participate in all their personal vendettas and frequent altercations/reconciliations with people. By the time I was a tween or a very young teen, I was writing in my diary that this was absolutely NOT the way I wanted to raise my kids. Without any concept of nuance, I vowed to myself that my kids would never know it if I was struggling, that I'd always present a calm, stable, happy, satisfied face to my children.
I think it was actually having kids and dealing with my kids every day and feeling challenged to show up for my kids in an authentic way, which taught me that it's NECESSARY to be truthful with them when I am struggling (because otherwise I would be implicitly stigmatizing struggles, showing them through my example that it was not okay to be open about struggles). Through trial and error I also learned how to share my feelings without asking for support - saying "I'm sad right now, that's why I was crying. I'll feel better later," for example, is a way to disclose feelings without asking for support.
These days my kids are teenagers, and I'm learning .... very slowly and very hesitantly .... that it's okay to ask for extra consideration and support from my kids when I am struggling, in some very limited ways like "I'm so upset about my job, ugh, I could really use a hug," or "I'm sick, honey, would you make me some tea?" Otherwise how will they learn that it's their job to support others who are struggling? How will they learn to see me (and other responsible adults) as human?
Other parents may see these things (asking for hugs, asking for tea) as a normal everyday thing in their homes, something they've taught their kids to do from a young age, a natural part of parenting. But I had to first unlearn about 15 or 20 years of constant everyday vows to myself that I would never show a crack in my facade, I would never do to my kids what my parent did to me. It takes time and hard hard work facing up to my fears and a LOT of destigmatization to overcome the absolute horror of sharing feelings with kids that I instilled for so long in myself, the terror of turning into my parent.
posted by MiraK at 10:47 AM on June 6 [26 favorites]
Modeling no emotions at all is only a variant on the traditional toxic masculinity of “I can have emotions but can only express them obliquely.” It is worse even than “I have emotions and sadnesses and fears, but I talk about them with my friends, not you.”
A realization I had when I was starting the (ever-ongoing) work of unpacking the patriarchal masculine assumptions, especially around my emotions and what I was allowed to express to others about them and my needs, that I hadn't realized I had internalized was that for all that I had good masculine role models as a child, very much including my father, who taught me how to be kind, curious, and funny, not a single man in my life when I was a boy was emotionally open with me or in the other relationships I could see. It would have been unbelievably powerful to the sensitive boy I was to see a man model the fact that men have emotions and that is good and right, as I was inundated with messages from society and peers about how boys don't cry and how to man up with no counterprogramming to teach me that my emotions were normal, not a problem to be hidden and managed. The idea that a father's job is to provide and guide but not to show emotions is exactly one of the ways that patriarchal masculinity harms while perpetuating itself.
posted by lhputtgrass at 10:48 AM on June 6 [14 favorites]
A realization I had when I was starting the (ever-ongoing) work of unpacking the patriarchal masculine assumptions, especially around my emotions and what I was allowed to express to others about them and my needs, that I hadn't realized I had internalized was that for all that I had good masculine role models as a child, very much including my father, who taught me how to be kind, curious, and funny, not a single man in my life when I was a boy was emotionally open with me or in the other relationships I could see. It would have been unbelievably powerful to the sensitive boy I was to see a man model the fact that men have emotions and that is good and right, as I was inundated with messages from society and peers about how boys don't cry and how to man up with no counterprogramming to teach me that my emotions were normal, not a problem to be hidden and managed. The idea that a father's job is to provide and guide but not to show emotions is exactly one of the ways that patriarchal masculinity harms while perpetuating itself.
posted by lhputtgrass at 10:48 AM on June 6 [14 favorites]
This isn't a topic MetaFilter is going to be able to discuss well because part of the problem is an ideological inability to acknowledge the problem.
I have fond* memories of bringing my abusive girlfriend to a MeFi meetup when I was 23, having a moment where she said something really shitty and hurtful to me, and the moment I expressed feeling hurt by it, a MeFite basically took her in under her wing, so they could talk about the many ways in which I totally definitely deserved her treatment of me, in front of me, while making it clear that me trying to express my feelings or my point of view would be taken as defensive, toxic, and misogynist.
Like, I'm not reading deep into this thread because you're absolutely right—this is an issue with progressive communities that most progressive feminists I know have acknowledged and discussed for the better part of a decade. And the issue still exists here, among very smart and lovely and well-meaning people with a blind spot that can be understandably hard to recognize or acknowledge. But: as a man and as a strident feminist, this article says important things, and it's (not really) a shock to me that these things are either new to folks or that they're met so defensively.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:53 AM on June 6 [31 favorites]
I have fond* memories of bringing my abusive girlfriend to a MeFi meetup when I was 23, having a moment where she said something really shitty and hurtful to me, and the moment I expressed feeling hurt by it, a MeFite basically took her in under her wing, so they could talk about the many ways in which I totally definitely deserved her treatment of me, in front of me, while making it clear that me trying to express my feelings or my point of view would be taken as defensive, toxic, and misogynist.
Like, I'm not reading deep into this thread because you're absolutely right—this is an issue with progressive communities that most progressive feminists I know have acknowledged and discussed for the better part of a decade. And the issue still exists here, among very smart and lovely and well-meaning people with a blind spot that can be understandably hard to recognize or acknowledge. But: as a man and as a strident feminist, this article says important things, and it's (not really) a shock to me that these things are either new to folks or that they're met so defensively.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:53 AM on June 6 [31 favorites]
The term getting thrown around in progressive parenting spaces at the moment for a lot of the attitudes described here is "gentle parenting", and it features at least two points I think are germane to this conversation:
- Teaching your child labels for how they are feeling, and practicing with them to notice how their behavior is impacting their peers' feelings. Explicitly practicing things to do when feeling sad, mad, tired, scared, etc. Instagram and reddit as well as the rest of the Internet are full of examples modeling what this could look like for kids of different ages from toddler to teenager. People mentioned looking for scripts above to change how they relate to others, and the gentle painting crowd is *great* for scripts. Obviously they are kid focused, but it *really is possible* to turn "just be sensitive to the person in front of you and treat them well according to the specific emotional nuances required" into example vignettes that help you connect those principles to concrete actions.
- The rupture/repair cycle. No parent in the history of humanity has ever not gotten angry and snapped at their child. Ideally, as mentioned above, the adult's anger and other emotions get discussed with the child in an age appropriate way. But if you snap at your child, the idea is you find them afterwards to give a real honest to god apology. Again, this is age appropriate but needs include e.g. that you made a mistake because you were angry, and it's okay to be angry but it's not okay to do X. And that next time you want to use coping skills Y rather than yelling, because they deserve to not be yelled at.
Finally, the main thing that made me want to bring thing into this thread is that a *key theme* that everyone discusses with gentle parenting is how difficult this work is for people *who were not parented this way themselves*. Even if you had exceptionally emotionally intelligent parents, and even if you were female and grew up socialized to emote and be empathetic, it probably wasn't explicitly spelled out in words. And many people, and especially men, did not grow up this way.
For all genders of both parent and child, this work is important enough that you can't wait to heal yourself fully, or get to where you want to be emotionally, or build the perfect society. You have to parent yourself and parent your child, simultaneously, as well as grieve for the nurturing you missed out on at earlier stages of your life. It is fundamentally unfair to have to be the person who tries to break this cycle, knowing that you still will be imperfect and make mistakes and don't have the guarantee that your children will grow up and thank you. But it's still worth it.
Childrearing aside, trying to simultaneously heal your own wounds and heal others/prevent doing harm to others is *incredibly difficult* and I want to end by stressing my appreciation for everyone who takes it on.
posted by heyforfour at 11:02 AM on June 6 [35 favorites]
- Teaching your child labels for how they are feeling, and practicing with them to notice how their behavior is impacting their peers' feelings. Explicitly practicing things to do when feeling sad, mad, tired, scared, etc. Instagram and reddit as well as the rest of the Internet are full of examples modeling what this could look like for kids of different ages from toddler to teenager. People mentioned looking for scripts above to change how they relate to others, and the gentle painting crowd is *great* for scripts. Obviously they are kid focused, but it *really is possible* to turn "just be sensitive to the person in front of you and treat them well according to the specific emotional nuances required" into example vignettes that help you connect those principles to concrete actions.
- The rupture/repair cycle. No parent in the history of humanity has ever not gotten angry and snapped at their child. Ideally, as mentioned above, the adult's anger and other emotions get discussed with the child in an age appropriate way. But if you snap at your child, the idea is you find them afterwards to give a real honest to god apology. Again, this is age appropriate but needs include e.g. that you made a mistake because you were angry, and it's okay to be angry but it's not okay to do X. And that next time you want to use coping skills Y rather than yelling, because they deserve to not be yelled at.
Finally, the main thing that made me want to bring thing into this thread is that a *key theme* that everyone discusses with gentle parenting is how difficult this work is for people *who were not parented this way themselves*. Even if you had exceptionally emotionally intelligent parents, and even if you were female and grew up socialized to emote and be empathetic, it probably wasn't explicitly spelled out in words. And many people, and especially men, did not grow up this way.
For all genders of both parent and child, this work is important enough that you can't wait to heal yourself fully, or get to where you want to be emotionally, or build the perfect society. You have to parent yourself and parent your child, simultaneously, as well as grieve for the nurturing you missed out on at earlier stages of your life. It is fundamentally unfair to have to be the person who tries to break this cycle, knowing that you still will be imperfect and make mistakes and don't have the guarantee that your children will grow up and thank you. But it's still worth it.
Childrearing aside, trying to simultaneously heal your own wounds and heal others/prevent doing harm to others is *incredibly difficult* and I want to end by stressing my appreciation for everyone who takes it on.
posted by heyforfour at 11:02 AM on June 6 [35 favorites]
1024 said he was leaving the thread for a bit, so I reached out to ask whether he happened to recall the book he mentioned - "I will never forget the absolutely earth-shattering book I read on men’s emotional vocabulary, or lack thereof. So, so much made sense after that" - and I asked if I could post the info here in the thread.
He graciously said yes - he had tracked down the book. It’s called “Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys”, and 1024 supplied the extract:
posted by kristi at 11:26 AM on June 6 [39 favorites]
He graciously said yes - he had tracked down the book. It’s called “Raising Cain: Protecting the Emotional Life of Boys”, and 1024 supplied the extract:
In Raising Cain, Dan Kindlon, Ph.D., and Michael Thompson, Ph.D., two of the country's leading child psychologists, share what they have learned in more than thirty-five years of combined experience working with boys and their families. They reveal a nation of boys who are hurting--sad, afraid, angry, and silent. Kindlon and Thompson set out to answer this basic, crucial question: What do boys need that they're not getting? They illuminate the forces that threaten our boys, teaching them to believe that "cool" equals macho strength and stoicism. Cutting through outdated theories of "mother blame," "boy biology," and "testosterone," the authors shed light on the destructive emotional training our boys receive--the emotional miseducation of boys.My massive thanks to 1024 for sharing that with us, and to the many commenters in this thread who are offering such personal insights. And, of course, to reality_is_benign, for creating this post and making space for this conversation. Thank you, reality_is_benign.
Kindlon and Thompson make a compelling case that emotional literacy is the most valuable gift we can offer our sons, urging parents to recognize the price boys pay when we hold them to an impossible standard of manhood. They identify the social and emotional challenges that boys encounter in school and show how parents can help boys cultivate emotional awareness and empathy--giving them the vital connections and support they need to navigate the social pressures of youth.
posted by kristi at 11:26 AM on June 6 [39 favorites]
As for the kid, why would my child be witnessing me have conversations about emotions with anyone? That’s not parenting. You don’t dump your feelings on your kids or in front of your kids. They’re kids.
On the contrary, modeling the expression and processing of emotions is very much a part of parenting. Like, sure, don't trauma-dump on your kids like they're your BFF, but trying to pretend you're made of stone isn't going to do them any favors.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:30 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
On the contrary, modeling the expression and processing of emotions is very much a part of parenting. Like, sure, don't trauma-dump on your kids like they're your BFF, but trying to pretend you're made of stone isn't going to do them any favors.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:30 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
Thank you kristi, and 1024!
posted by orrnyereg at 11:46 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 11:46 AM on June 6 [2 favorites]
There is at least one episode of Mr. Rogers where he struggles and fails to setup a tent and gets visibly frustrated specifically because he wanted to make sure that children saw an adult fail and struggle and deal with the emotions that come with it in a healthy way and then talk to the viewers about what happened.
That's always seemed like an excellent model for parents to follow.
posted by VTX at 11:50 AM on June 6 [20 favorites]
That's always seemed like an excellent model for parents to follow.
posted by VTX at 11:50 AM on June 6 [20 favorites]
I wrote and deleted something flippant about the studies brook horse linked but I did find it interesting that dads were successfully suppressing their stress in the study while moms weren’t.
I’m a millennial raised by a Silent Generation dad. I saw him cry once the morning my mom died.
We didn’t talk about it. My feelings got talked about all the time. They were for him to help me with. The reverse wasn’t true. He was a great dad.
My dad was born in the Depression as a mostly-white kid in the South. He grew up, got sent to Korea, and got shot. He came back and worked in factories and prisons, got married, had kids, retired, and got widowed. As far back as I can remember he even had two friends who came by the house sometimes.
He probably had feelings about all of that. I don’t think my childhood would have been better if he had told me about all of them.
I’ll agree that boys need explicit lessons about how to handle their emotions. They need support. I can’t buy into the idea that they need adults’ emotions dumped on them. Not the big ones. Be mad about a tree falling on your house or disappointed that the movie is sold out. Great. Teach from that. Don’t mourn your wasted life in front of your kid. They don’t need that lesson yet.
I could be openly sad around my Tiny Monster all day if I let it happen, but I refuse. It’s not going to help him, and he’s not going to understand.
Tbh I have to kind of tap out right about here and say I’m stressed out talking about the hypothetical normally developing kid I absolutely do not have who has conversations with his parents and is going to grow up and have relationships with peers. Someday soon everyone who loves him will be dead and all he will have is what I leave him and if he remembers me at all he will not remember me sad and that’s that.
I shouldn’t join parenting conversations when I’m not on the same path as other parents. I think everyone means well but I’ve wasted your time. I may wander off for a year or two after this thread. Less internet is usually a good thing.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 11:54 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
I’m a millennial raised by a Silent Generation dad. I saw him cry once the morning my mom died.
We didn’t talk about it. My feelings got talked about all the time. They were for him to help me with. The reverse wasn’t true. He was a great dad.
My dad was born in the Depression as a mostly-white kid in the South. He grew up, got sent to Korea, and got shot. He came back and worked in factories and prisons, got married, had kids, retired, and got widowed. As far back as I can remember he even had two friends who came by the house sometimes.
He probably had feelings about all of that. I don’t think my childhood would have been better if he had told me about all of them.
I’ll agree that boys need explicit lessons about how to handle their emotions. They need support. I can’t buy into the idea that they need adults’ emotions dumped on them. Not the big ones. Be mad about a tree falling on your house or disappointed that the movie is sold out. Great. Teach from that. Don’t mourn your wasted life in front of your kid. They don’t need that lesson yet.
I could be openly sad around my Tiny Monster all day if I let it happen, but I refuse. It’s not going to help him, and he’s not going to understand.
Tbh I have to kind of tap out right about here and say I’m stressed out talking about the hypothetical normally developing kid I absolutely do not have who has conversations with his parents and is going to grow up and have relationships with peers. Someday soon everyone who loves him will be dead and all he will have is what I leave him and if he remembers me at all he will not remember me sad and that’s that.
I shouldn’t join parenting conversations when I’m not on the same path as other parents. I think everyone means well but I’ve wasted your time. I may wander off for a year or two after this thread. Less internet is usually a good thing.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 11:54 AM on June 6 [6 favorites]
I'm one of the younger Gen X folks and I have a four-year-old son. Also, I'm a Times subscriber (and share a lot of the major critiques of the paper), but planned to avoid this opinion piece when I saw it in the app. However, I have been following this thread pretty extensively and certainly share some of the feelings expressed about where men can feel comfortable talking about their feelings and needs in primarily online spaces. I am also not that fussed about that part of the conversation.
In response to TFA, I am not sure how to replicate the good parts of my upbringing with my father. He was born in the early 30s and definitely shared some of the sexist attitudes you'd expect from someone of that era. There are many things from my upbringing with him that I would want to avoid, including modeling the angry, shouting man; emotionally manipulative, and a womanizer. There are also really wonderful things he modeled for me, including, somehow given the previous, excellent professional relationships with women, and talking about and sharing feelings, honesty, and being ethical.
I'm not sure how exactly to put this into words, but he never presented me with "masculinity" in the same way it seems like many other men received it from their Dads. It never seemed to be something he was concerned about demonstrating, something he ever felt was questioned, and the lessons I got about being good were about being a good person and not a good man. This definitely left holes for me to fill in on my own as a teenager, young adult, and adult, but I have mostly never had to think about demonstrating manliness or feeling much at all about the wider cultural pressure of how to be a man.
I would love for our son to get a lot of the same things out of our relationship that I learned out of mine with my Dad, but I really worry because it's a very different era with different pressures, information infrastructure, and I have no idea what it will be like over the next 20 years. I was able to figure things out in an era largely before social media, but absolutely on the Internet, so I just hope he develops a good sense of empathy and a willingness to talk things through. I hope he learns that being silly is totally fine and that being a good person is paramount to being a good gender.
posted by Captaintripps at 11:55 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
In response to TFA, I am not sure how to replicate the good parts of my upbringing with my father. He was born in the early 30s and definitely shared some of the sexist attitudes you'd expect from someone of that era. There are many things from my upbringing with him that I would want to avoid, including modeling the angry, shouting man; emotionally manipulative, and a womanizer. There are also really wonderful things he modeled for me, including, somehow given the previous, excellent professional relationships with women, and talking about and sharing feelings, honesty, and being ethical.
I'm not sure how exactly to put this into words, but he never presented me with "masculinity" in the same way it seems like many other men received it from their Dads. It never seemed to be something he was concerned about demonstrating, something he ever felt was questioned, and the lessons I got about being good were about being a good person and not a good man. This definitely left holes for me to fill in on my own as a teenager, young adult, and adult, but I have mostly never had to think about demonstrating manliness or feeling much at all about the wider cultural pressure of how to be a man.
I would love for our son to get a lot of the same things out of our relationship that I learned out of mine with my Dad, but I really worry because it's a very different era with different pressures, information infrastructure, and I have no idea what it will be like over the next 20 years. I was able to figure things out in an era largely before social media, but absolutely on the Internet, so I just hope he develops a good sense of empathy and a willingness to talk things through. I hope he learns that being silly is totally fine and that being a good person is paramount to being a good gender.
posted by Captaintripps at 11:55 AM on June 6 [8 favorites]
VTX, I was JUST debating whether to mention Mister Rogers here.
From the Mister Rogers website:
I'm glad there seems to be so much more helpful emotional education in public schools today, but I also wish everybody (of all ages) got to spend more time with Mister Rogers.
posted by kristi at 12:01 PM on June 6 [22 favorites]
From the Mister Rogers website:
“Nobody knows what you’re thinking or feeling unless you tell them.” Young children think adults know everything – even what children are thinking or feeling. Mister Rogers helped us know that when we can talk about our feelings, others can understand us and help us find ways to manage.Mister Rogers isn't even broadcast on PBS anymore (although the foundation puts up a full week of episodes twice a month at https://www.misterrogers.org/watch/), and I suspect that lots of little boys have been bullied out of watching Mister Rogers when they're still quite young. But Fred Rogers spent his whole life trying to help little boys (and little girls) name, understand, and value their emotions.
Giving names to feelings is the first step to managing them, so Mister Rogers used words like angry, sad, and scared, and even more complex words like frustrated, disappointed, worried. He even told children about the word ambivalent – feeling two different ways about the same thing.
I'm glad there seems to be so much more helpful emotional education in public schools today, but I also wish everybody (of all ages) got to spend more time with Mister Rogers.
posted by kristi at 12:01 PM on June 6 [22 favorites]
For the record, I don't think anyone is suggesting telling your 5-year-old son that you are an empty shell of a man who wasted his youth on pointless dreams only to stagger into middle age full of regrets, or, you know, whatever.
Someone upthread said "age appropriate" and that's the key. Your 5-year-old should know that you're sad when a pet dies or mad when you stub your toe. My son is 21 and we can talk about pretty much anything, including how shitty toxic masculinity is and how even good men have trouble combating internalized socialization.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:19 PM on June 6 [20 favorites]
Someone upthread said "age appropriate" and that's the key. Your 5-year-old should know that you're sad when a pet dies or mad when you stub your toe. My son is 21 and we can talk about pretty much anything, including how shitty toxic masculinity is and how even good men have trouble combating internalized socialization.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 12:19 PM on June 6 [20 favorites]
I shouldn’t join parenting conversations when I’m not on the same path as other parents. I think everyone means well but I’ve wasted your time. I
A. you haven't wasted my time
B. I'm glad you spoke up.
I’m a millennial raised by a Silent Generation dad. I saw him cry once the morning my mom died.
We didn’t talk about it. My feelings got talked about all the time. They were for him to help me with. The reverse wasn’t true. He was a great dad.
My dad was born in the Depression as a mostly-white kid in the South. He grew up, got sent to Korea, and got shot.
My dad was born in 1924, so the war that he got caught up in was WW2, and though he was never seriously wounded he very much experienced horrific front line action. So yeah, lots of similarity. And also in his parenting. He was just always there, supportive, protective, loving.
It Was Never About Him.
I think this was very war related. As he described it to me, after his first battle (Caen in Normandy) where he'd been paralyzed with terror, he finally just surrendered to fatalism. He would probably die and there was nothing he could do about it, so best just get on with the job he'd volunteered to do. So when he survived the war with barely a scratch in spite of all manner of insanely close calls, he couldn't help but feel he was on borrowed time, that he somehow wasn't supposed to be here anymore ... (and now this is me extrapolating) ... so whatever ambitions, other ego driven stuff he may have had as a kid -- those were all long gone, irrelevant. He was just here to do the best that he could with this miraculous life he had. And yeah, most of that ended up revolving around being a husband, a father, a provider. And oh yeah, a pacifist.
posted by philip-random at 12:22 PM on June 6 [16 favorites]
A. you haven't wasted my time
B. I'm glad you spoke up.
I’m a millennial raised by a Silent Generation dad. I saw him cry once the morning my mom died.
We didn’t talk about it. My feelings got talked about all the time. They were for him to help me with. The reverse wasn’t true. He was a great dad.
My dad was born in the Depression as a mostly-white kid in the South. He grew up, got sent to Korea, and got shot.
My dad was born in 1924, so the war that he got caught up in was WW2, and though he was never seriously wounded he very much experienced horrific front line action. So yeah, lots of similarity. And also in his parenting. He was just always there, supportive, protective, loving.
It Was Never About Him.
I think this was very war related. As he described it to me, after his first battle (Caen in Normandy) where he'd been paralyzed with terror, he finally just surrendered to fatalism. He would probably die and there was nothing he could do about it, so best just get on with the job he'd volunteered to do. So when he survived the war with barely a scratch in spite of all manner of insanely close calls, he couldn't help but feel he was on borrowed time, that he somehow wasn't supposed to be here anymore ... (and now this is me extrapolating) ... so whatever ambitions, other ego driven stuff he may have had as a kid -- those were all long gone, irrelevant. He was just here to do the best that he could with this miraculous life he had. And yeah, most of that ended up revolving around being a husband, a father, a provider. And oh yeah, a pacifist.
posted by philip-random at 12:22 PM on June 6 [16 favorites]
VTX, I was JUST debating whether to mention Mister Rogers here.
Great minds think alike! The same ideals that drove Mr. Rogers Neighborhood are still alive and well in series "Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood" and is excellent. My kid is six and we still sing the potty song.
When you have to go potty stop. and go right away.
Flush and wash and be on your way!
On your way I said, stop playing with the water!
It's also just catchy as hell.
There are a lot of episode themes that speak to the issue in this thread as well, recognizing, naming, and talking about emotions, being respectful and inclusive of others, diversity, healthy ways to express and deal with emotions adults and children alike. It's an excellent show for kids and I have definitely picked up or improved some parenting techniques from watching the show with him.
posted by VTX at 1:05 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
Great minds think alike! The same ideals that drove Mr. Rogers Neighborhood are still alive and well in series "Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood" and is excellent. My kid is six and we still sing the potty song.
When you have to go potty stop. and go right away.
Flush and wash and be on your way!
On your way I said, stop playing with the water!
It's also just catchy as hell.
There are a lot of episode themes that speak to the issue in this thread as well, recognizing, naming, and talking about emotions, being respectful and inclusive of others, diversity, healthy ways to express and deal with emotions adults and children alike. It's an excellent show for kids and I have definitely picked up or improved some parenting techniques from watching the show with him.
posted by VTX at 1:05 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
You can teach your boys to communicate emotionally, but it's going to suck for them when they grow up and find that "progressive" women view most of their displays of emotion as a threat.
posted by tovarisch at 1:08 PM on June 6 [9 favorites]
posted by tovarisch at 1:08 PM on June 6 [9 favorites]
Thank you for doing that, kristi (and 1024).
posted by doctornemo at 1:17 PM on June 6
posted by doctornemo at 1:17 PM on June 6
For the record, I don't think anyone is suggesting telling your 5-year-old son that you are an empty shell of a man who wasted his youth on pointless dreams only to stagger into middle age full of regrets, or, you know, whatever.
Exactly this.
I think a precondition to this is having an emotional landscape that feels manageable enough that there are age-appropriate ways to talk about (some of) the stuff in it. I definitely don’t want to shame anyone for whom that’s not true. I stand my my position that it’s terribly sad, though.
posted by eirias at 1:22 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Exactly this.
I think a precondition to this is having an emotional landscape that feels manageable enough that there are age-appropriate ways to talk about (some of) the stuff in it. I definitely don’t want to shame anyone for whom that’s not true. I stand my my position that it’s terribly sad, though.
posted by eirias at 1:22 PM on June 6 [6 favorites]
Note: this is a generalized response to The Monster At The End of This Thread and not a personal judgement, but it's a really common sentiment that hurts not just yourself and the people in your immediate vicinity but it also perpetuates exactly the thing that needs to not be given even more oxygen.
"I did a thing wrong so I will NEVER DO ANYTHING LIKE IT AGAIN" is not aligned with intimacy and is in fact a shirking of duty. Not to the world in general - most of them do not actually rely on you for anything and won't notice - but to the specific people in YOUR world actually affected by this policy.
When my partner comes to me and says he is having complicated thoughts about some specific thing and wants to hear my thoughts about the thing and then wants to percolate on it and work on some ways to make that easier or better or stay more informed or whatever is required by the nature of the thing, that is intimacy!!! That is the good stuff!!! It's thrilling to hear, because what it's not is creating such an adverse environment around the thing that I have to keep the thing away from him, handle the responsibility of the thing all by myself, sit by while he sulks about the thing or yells at me in lieu of the thing. When my coworker asks me my thoughts on how to solve the frustrating Widget problem or manage the Widget client, we talk about it, and he takes those results and goes and deals with the problem instead of abandoning it to me to solve the problem and deliver it to the client - or just does nothing until the client freaks out and now I'm handling the escalation - I'm fucking STOKED.
(And yes this is also a common neurodivergent response to confusing rules, but it's not good practice even for us! There are better tools for handling feelings! We can learn them.)
Refusing to collaborate is not a point of pride and it's not a true progressive value even if you see it demonstrated by humans you might classify as progressive in some ways or environments. If you won't ever bring a casserole to the potlucks because a couple of coworkers are weird about cheese, don't walk the world wounded to the bone that your casein-loving ways have put you on the outside of your entire industry. Put down that burden and work with the truly important people in your life/work - who had hoped you might break bread (and cheese) with them - to develop a joint vocabulary and style of communication that you both find manageable and even fulfilling.
Deciding not to collaborate with your partners, kids, colleagues etc because mean old Lyn Never said she was sick of handing out gold stars for taking out the trash and not punching another hole in the door is nobody's win, and it does nothing to punish me for imposing these terrible restrictions on you. None of the people who live with you know who I am to be mad at me or come take it up with me. If I have taken away the joys of door-punching or doing one sixth-grade-level chore for every 10 domestic management tasks someone else has to manage, I...I guess let them know so they can take that information under consideration but if it doesn't go well I don't think that's my fault.
Don't strawman the people in your actual life. Don't...seriously, this Big Flounce That Actually Spares You Having To Do Any Work that men are prone to doing to women is the exaaaaact same BFTASYHTDAW white women do to people of color when challenged to do anything more than one molecule better. Like, I know exactly what that sting feels like, and the inclination to go FINE I JUST WON'T but in a personal relationship, that's not loving stewardship, and in a social contract that's not good faith.
And of course nobody is advising parents should tell their kids their anxieties if they are grown-up burdens. But yes you should of course tell your kid ABOUT anxiety, or they're going to learn about it on the street from influencers. Yes, even non-verbal or pre-verbal kids, it's totally a thing now to bring that into your communication to help THEM identify and understand, as they are developmentally able, their big feelings (which exist whether you want them to or not) and start providing a narrative about things we can do when we feel sad or frustrated or sick or hurt. And to share in the course of empathy, like yeah, I get frustrated too sometimes when things don't go the way I planned, I like to do a silly dance (demonstration) or do a biiiiig stretch or I take some slow calming breaths in through my nose (demo) and then out through my mouth (demo).
And along with being developmentally detrimental to not shepherd your kid's emotional wellbeing, it's not fair to leave all the teaching about feelings to the womenfolk.
It is also possible to choose for yourself to start doing things a different way because you recognize you are suffering from how you're doing it now. That's what that list of books in my profile are largely oriented toward: easing your own pain, or at least easing your own first so you can also not create more for someone else.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:23 PM on June 6 [16 favorites]
"I did a thing wrong so I will NEVER DO ANYTHING LIKE IT AGAIN" is not aligned with intimacy and is in fact a shirking of duty. Not to the world in general - most of them do not actually rely on you for anything and won't notice - but to the specific people in YOUR world actually affected by this policy.
When my partner comes to me and says he is having complicated thoughts about some specific thing and wants to hear my thoughts about the thing and then wants to percolate on it and work on some ways to make that easier or better or stay more informed or whatever is required by the nature of the thing, that is intimacy!!! That is the good stuff!!! It's thrilling to hear, because what it's not is creating such an adverse environment around the thing that I have to keep the thing away from him, handle the responsibility of the thing all by myself, sit by while he sulks about the thing or yells at me in lieu of the thing. When my coworker asks me my thoughts on how to solve the frustrating Widget problem or manage the Widget client, we talk about it, and he takes those results and goes and deals with the problem instead of abandoning it to me to solve the problem and deliver it to the client - or just does nothing until the client freaks out and now I'm handling the escalation - I'm fucking STOKED.
(And yes this is also a common neurodivergent response to confusing rules, but it's not good practice even for us! There are better tools for handling feelings! We can learn them.)
Refusing to collaborate is not a point of pride and it's not a true progressive value even if you see it demonstrated by humans you might classify as progressive in some ways or environments. If you won't ever bring a casserole to the potlucks because a couple of coworkers are weird about cheese, don't walk the world wounded to the bone that your casein-loving ways have put you on the outside of your entire industry. Put down that burden and work with the truly important people in your life/work - who had hoped you might break bread (and cheese) with them - to develop a joint vocabulary and style of communication that you both find manageable and even fulfilling.
Deciding not to collaborate with your partners, kids, colleagues etc because mean old Lyn Never said she was sick of handing out gold stars for taking out the trash and not punching another hole in the door is nobody's win, and it does nothing to punish me for imposing these terrible restrictions on you. None of the people who live with you know who I am to be mad at me or come take it up with me. If I have taken away the joys of door-punching or doing one sixth-grade-level chore for every 10 domestic management tasks someone else has to manage, I...I guess let them know so they can take that information under consideration but if it doesn't go well I don't think that's my fault.
Don't strawman the people in your actual life. Don't...seriously, this Big Flounce That Actually Spares You Having To Do Any Work that men are prone to doing to women is the exaaaaact same BFTASYHTDAW white women do to people of color when challenged to do anything more than one molecule better. Like, I know exactly what that sting feels like, and the inclination to go FINE I JUST WON'T but in a personal relationship, that's not loving stewardship, and in a social contract that's not good faith.
And of course nobody is advising parents should tell their kids their anxieties if they are grown-up burdens. But yes you should of course tell your kid ABOUT anxiety, or they're going to learn about it on the street from influencers. Yes, even non-verbal or pre-verbal kids, it's totally a thing now to bring that into your communication to help THEM identify and understand, as they are developmentally able, their big feelings (which exist whether you want them to or not) and start providing a narrative about things we can do when we feel sad or frustrated or sick or hurt. And to share in the course of empathy, like yeah, I get frustrated too sometimes when things don't go the way I planned, I like to do a silly dance (demonstration) or do a biiiiig stretch or I take some slow calming breaths in through my nose (demo) and then out through my mouth (demo).
And along with being developmentally detrimental to not shepherd your kid's emotional wellbeing, it's not fair to leave all the teaching about feelings to the womenfolk.
It is also possible to choose for yourself to start doing things a different way because you recognize you are suffering from how you're doing it now. That's what that list of books in my profile are largely oriented toward: easing your own pain, or at least easing your own first so you can also not create more for someone else.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:23 PM on June 6 [16 favorites]
Someday soon everyone who loves him will be dead and all he will have is what I leave him and if he remembers me at all he will not remember me sad and that’s that.
You know, my dad was very sad. HIs whole life. And it was clear to me, and I wanted to help him, but I couldn't. He held on to things for way too long and refused to divest himself of negative emotions. And I feel some of that in me! It is genetic, because he didn't raise me. He was a kind and helpful person, really loved talking to strangers and saluting people he thought deserved salutation. We had a bunch of good times together. But the way he talked about the past, and clung to it, it was clear that he was unsatisfied with his present. But! He was also a very, very good listener and exactly the person you wanted to go to when you were feeling sad yourself, unless it was about him.
When my FIL passed away I was in a weird emotional space because I had been staying at the family compound for around 2 months as he slowly deteriorated. It was an extremely emotionally complex experience since I was there to support grumpybearbride and her family, which meant that I couldn't center (or even really express) my own emotions surrounding my FIL. There was a lot of excusing myself to the bedroom to sob silently. And then, once he passed, being almost immediately unwelcome. It fucking sucked. But anyway, when he passed, I called my mom and stepfather, and they got off the phone with me very quickly, totally unprepared and seemingly unwilling to help me deal with the grief I was feeling in isolation. It was horrible. Then I called my dad, and he stayed on the phone with me for a long time, listening and totally Being There. Because he knew sadness and grief, and he was comfortable expressing it and receiving its expression. It was a watershed moment for me with regards to my perspective on him, since most of the sadness I had previously expressed was surrounding our relationship, something he did not handle well.
So when my dad died, and I called my mom and stepdad, and they were once again completely useless in terms of being there for me in a time of need, it was doubly difficult because the person I most needed to speak to was now dead and unavailable. Thankfully I was able to talk to my aunt and uncle, both good listeners, but it was of course not the same. And, of course, I was able to express my grief to grumpybearbride. She is also a very good listener, and not at all put off by me expressing my emotions to her. That's one of the reasons we are married.
Anyway, I'm sure my dad would be a little disappointed to know that I viewed him as a man infused with sadness, but that's the deal. You can't really control how your kids perceive you. And it doesn't make my dad any less of a person or a disappointment or in anyway compromised as a memory for this to be true. If anything, seeing and understanding and accepting his sadness made him more three-dimensional to me. I certainly wish that he hadn't been so sad, because it must have sucked, but there's nothing to be done about that. And it gave him the power to help people. For that I am grateful.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:43 PM on June 6 [25 favorites]
You know, my dad was very sad. HIs whole life. And it was clear to me, and I wanted to help him, but I couldn't. He held on to things for way too long and refused to divest himself of negative emotions. And I feel some of that in me! It is genetic, because he didn't raise me. He was a kind and helpful person, really loved talking to strangers and saluting people he thought deserved salutation. We had a bunch of good times together. But the way he talked about the past, and clung to it, it was clear that he was unsatisfied with his present. But! He was also a very, very good listener and exactly the person you wanted to go to when you were feeling sad yourself, unless it was about him.
When my FIL passed away I was in a weird emotional space because I had been staying at the family compound for around 2 months as he slowly deteriorated. It was an extremely emotionally complex experience since I was there to support grumpybearbride and her family, which meant that I couldn't center (or even really express) my own emotions surrounding my FIL. There was a lot of excusing myself to the bedroom to sob silently. And then, once he passed, being almost immediately unwelcome. It fucking sucked. But anyway, when he passed, I called my mom and stepfather, and they got off the phone with me very quickly, totally unprepared and seemingly unwilling to help me deal with the grief I was feeling in isolation. It was horrible. Then I called my dad, and he stayed on the phone with me for a long time, listening and totally Being There. Because he knew sadness and grief, and he was comfortable expressing it and receiving its expression. It was a watershed moment for me with regards to my perspective on him, since most of the sadness I had previously expressed was surrounding our relationship, something he did not handle well.
So when my dad died, and I called my mom and stepdad, and they were once again completely useless in terms of being there for me in a time of need, it was doubly difficult because the person I most needed to speak to was now dead and unavailable. Thankfully I was able to talk to my aunt and uncle, both good listeners, but it was of course not the same. And, of course, I was able to express my grief to grumpybearbride. She is also a very good listener, and not at all put off by me expressing my emotions to her. That's one of the reasons we are married.
Anyway, I'm sure my dad would be a little disappointed to know that I viewed him as a man infused with sadness, but that's the deal. You can't really control how your kids perceive you. And it doesn't make my dad any less of a person or a disappointment or in anyway compromised as a memory for this to be true. If anything, seeing and understanding and accepting his sadness made him more three-dimensional to me. I certainly wish that he hadn't been so sad, because it must have sucked, but there's nothing to be done about that. And it gave him the power to help people. For that I am grateful.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:43 PM on June 6 [25 favorites]
grumpybear69, thank you for sharing that story. I'm sorry you went through that situation with your FIL. It's also interesting that someone like your dad could have a hard time moving past his own sadness while also being just the right person to help you with yours.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 2:31 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 2:31 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
He liked - or at least had a habit of - dwelling on sadness, so it was an emotional space where he felt comfortable. And I think he experienced a sense of kinship when he saw it in others. He was extremely empathetic.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:46 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:46 PM on June 6 [1 favorite]
The thing about metaphors is that they carry a freight; parsing men’s obligation to correctly express emotions, and to endure discomfort, as a progressive duty, will always wind up dutifully back at the masculine expectations of rugged silence patriarchy imposes, against intimacy and honesty. What’s a duty if not a role to be performed?
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:53 PM on June 6 [8 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:53 PM on June 6 [8 favorites]
It is also possible to choose for yourself to start doing things a different way because you recognize you are suffering from how you're doing it now.
this this this this this this and it is one of the hardest things to do and one of the best things you could ever model for a child
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 4:15 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
this this this this this this and it is one of the hardest things to do and one of the best things you could ever model for a child
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 4:15 PM on June 6 [5 favorites]
[Late to the thread, but after some back-and-forth I decided to post this from a sockpuppet for privacy]
I (cis male) can identify only three moments in my life where I've experienced panic attacks, all rapid-onset physically-consuming experiences that made me extremely confused and scared and were accompanied by a physical sensation of the floor beneath me disappearing and struggling suddenly to maintain my balance. All of those experiences happened when I was alone with a (cis female) partner, in each case a different but equally supportive, progressive partner who I loved a lot.
In the first at age 19, I was so afraid I spontaneously started crying. My then-partner immediately attended to me, tried to coax me into explaining what was wrong. When I told her I didn't know and I had just gotten scared and confused out of nowhere, she got upset abruptly and told me I can't expect her to deal with that, and walked out of the house, leaving me alone in the living room.
In the second around age 31, my then-partner and I were about to head into a party. I said, "I'm sorry, I think I'm having a panic attack, I don't know why, and I don't know what to do." My partner said oh no, what do you need from me? I said I didn't know, maybe a few minutes to get my bearings? She got suddenly angry and said, "Well my friends are at this party, and I'm sorry but you're not going to keep me from seeing them, so just deal with whatever you need to deal with and come in if you can pull yourself together." Then she turned her back and walked inside, leaving me alone on the sidewalk.
In the most recent case, I told a partner I thought I was having a panic attack, and couldn't do what I needed to do to put together a plan for dealing with an issue at work. Her mood went immediately from buoyant to weary, and she said, "I'm sorry, I love you but I'm not going to be a very supportive person for you right now -- I'm tired, and this is triggering for me. I need you to stop trying to control your situation and just deal with it as it is. I care about you a lot, but I'm going to bed now." And she left me alone at the kitchen table.
In all of these cases, I had never asked for anything like that prior. In every case I realized that mine was a big and burdensome request. And in every other situation these were all wonderful, generous, supportive, loving women, each of whom was consistently outspoken about the harms the patriarchy does to men alongside women.
And: all of them had been through abusive experiences in previous relationships where men had emotionally manipulated them. When I see that empathy switch flip in a partner while I'm at my most vulnerable, it feels awful but I do feel like I get it. So many people in the world have been taught by their abuse that they need to reflexively raise their shields in self-protection when confronted with a sudden emotional outpouring from a man.
And the fact that I would never give myself reciprocal permission to walk out on them in their moments of crisis doesn't make me superior, but instead comes fundamentally from my privilege of never having been put through the gendered mistreatment they have. I truly believe that. But what's just as clear to me is that it'll continue to be my job in relationships to manage my panic attacks alone.
posted by undesignated at 4:23 PM on June 6 [41 favorites]
I (cis male) can identify only three moments in my life where I've experienced panic attacks, all rapid-onset physically-consuming experiences that made me extremely confused and scared and were accompanied by a physical sensation of the floor beneath me disappearing and struggling suddenly to maintain my balance. All of those experiences happened when I was alone with a (cis female) partner, in each case a different but equally supportive, progressive partner who I loved a lot.
In the first at age 19, I was so afraid I spontaneously started crying. My then-partner immediately attended to me, tried to coax me into explaining what was wrong. When I told her I didn't know and I had just gotten scared and confused out of nowhere, she got upset abruptly and told me I can't expect her to deal with that, and walked out of the house, leaving me alone in the living room.
In the second around age 31, my then-partner and I were about to head into a party. I said, "I'm sorry, I think I'm having a panic attack, I don't know why, and I don't know what to do." My partner said oh no, what do you need from me? I said I didn't know, maybe a few minutes to get my bearings? She got suddenly angry and said, "Well my friends are at this party, and I'm sorry but you're not going to keep me from seeing them, so just deal with whatever you need to deal with and come in if you can pull yourself together." Then she turned her back and walked inside, leaving me alone on the sidewalk.
In the most recent case, I told a partner I thought I was having a panic attack, and couldn't do what I needed to do to put together a plan for dealing with an issue at work. Her mood went immediately from buoyant to weary, and she said, "I'm sorry, I love you but I'm not going to be a very supportive person for you right now -- I'm tired, and this is triggering for me. I need you to stop trying to control your situation and just deal with it as it is. I care about you a lot, but I'm going to bed now." And she left me alone at the kitchen table.
In all of these cases, I had never asked for anything like that prior. In every case I realized that mine was a big and burdensome request. And in every other situation these were all wonderful, generous, supportive, loving women, each of whom was consistently outspoken about the harms the patriarchy does to men alongside women.
And: all of them had been through abusive experiences in previous relationships where men had emotionally manipulated them. When I see that empathy switch flip in a partner while I'm at my most vulnerable, it feels awful but I do feel like I get it. So many people in the world have been taught by their abuse that they need to reflexively raise their shields in self-protection when confronted with a sudden emotional outpouring from a man.
And the fact that I would never give myself reciprocal permission to walk out on them in their moments of crisis doesn't make me superior, but instead comes fundamentally from my privilege of never having been put through the gendered mistreatment they have. I truly believe that. But what's just as clear to me is that it'll continue to be my job in relationships to manage my panic attacks alone.
posted by undesignated at 4:23 PM on June 6 [41 favorites]
Dad, as a fixture in a child’s life, isn’t a person the way the child and his friends are. … Dad’s a resource, not a Very Special Episode of Bluey.
So I get the idea being conveyed here, but the language hit me particularly hard because this was very much how my father thought of himself. He modeled himself always as a resource for others, giving whenever possible. But not because he was generous, but because he felt he deserved nothing.
And I modeled myself on this, and as a result I spent a long time not thinking of myself as a person. Not just undeserving, but as not capable of needing or deserving. As an object, something that may be useful but not valuable.
And, er… that was really bad. It took me a long time and a lot of therapy to get past that mindset. I still fall into it when I’m having a rough time, or when I find myself failing at something I’m trying to do for someone else. It’s not a mindset I would wish on anyone else.
So… I guess one of the fundamental things I’d love to see men do for their children is to even model the idea that they are people, that they have value, and that other people do as well. Treating yourself as worthless can be almost as damaging to people who love you, as treating them that way.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 5:23 PM on June 6 [27 favorites]
So I get the idea being conveyed here, but the language hit me particularly hard because this was very much how my father thought of himself. He modeled himself always as a resource for others, giving whenever possible. But not because he was generous, but because he felt he deserved nothing.
And I modeled myself on this, and as a result I spent a long time not thinking of myself as a person. Not just undeserving, but as not capable of needing or deserving. As an object, something that may be useful but not valuable.
And, er… that was really bad. It took me a long time and a lot of therapy to get past that mindset. I still fall into it when I’m having a rough time, or when I find myself failing at something I’m trying to do for someone else. It’s not a mindset I would wish on anyone else.
So… I guess one of the fundamental things I’d love to see men do for their children is to even model the idea that they are people, that they have value, and that other people do as well. Treating yourself as worthless can be almost as damaging to people who love you, as treating them that way.
posted by learning from frequent failure at 5:23 PM on June 6 [27 favorites]
Yeah, my father was a model of doing right by others, and in doing so, killed many dreams of his own, in order to be a good provider. He had a limited emotional range that only really broadened out when encroaching dementia started to disinhibit him. I never saw him ask for help and the only times I was able to help him without being rebuffed, even dangerous tasks which were clearly two-person tasks, were when he was physically incapacitated.
It has taken me into my 50s to realise that is not a good model for life.
"Your father will not say he loves you but he will build you a bookcase", said my mother. I found this comforting and even charming for many years, before I started to find it horrifying.
Personally I have done my best with my child to model emotional range, safely and in a modulated way. I have not always succeeded because in the early years, like my dad, I would find suppressing it all too much and at some point of maximum fatigue and stress, explode. Unlike my dad, I apologised after and made it clear I knew I had behaved badly. Then I got my shit together and stopped doing that.
It wasn't easy to get there because I was brought up in a school and wider cultural environment where masculinity was ruthlessly policed. My dad never cried and neither did I, not after I learned that was the gateway to relentless bullying that would try to make you cry more. Violence between boys was common and adults turned a blind eye because "boys will be boys". God forbid you got labelled a poof or a homo, the only recourse would be to vigorously deny and thereby hurt anyone who actually was heading that way.
My mother was a committed second wave feminist but a raised consciousness and Andrea Dworkin and Kate Millett did not prepare her for this whether or not you think this is a responsibility she should have taken on.
I learned very little about how to relate to women and a lot of what I did learn from my equally ignorant peers, books and songs etc was frankly horrifying. (Good work Metafilter, you filled in a lot of gaps for me over the years).
I knew something was very wrong by the time Iron John came out and I read it and found it equal parts illuminating and cringe. I guess the appeal of the far-right and the incels and the manosphere to some males is that they have got the emotional appeal down but don't seem cringe if you are already deeply soaked in toxic masculinity. Come join us and we will feel your pain (and get you to blame it on women instead of all the stunted dudes who actually shaped you).
By accident and a little design I now have supportive friendships with other men and we talk, and for one reason and another, I think we have a good and defensible outlook. How you would bootstrap that if you don't move in the right circles I have no idea, you would have to know what to want which is kind of the problem. Am not sure if I want to be or could be a missionary for this (which I know cedes the ground to fundy Christians and cookers and incels).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:05 PM on June 6 [12 favorites]
It has taken me into my 50s to realise that is not a good model for life.
"Your father will not say he loves you but he will build you a bookcase", said my mother. I found this comforting and even charming for many years, before I started to find it horrifying.
Personally I have done my best with my child to model emotional range, safely and in a modulated way. I have not always succeeded because in the early years, like my dad, I would find suppressing it all too much and at some point of maximum fatigue and stress, explode. Unlike my dad, I apologised after and made it clear I knew I had behaved badly. Then I got my shit together and stopped doing that.
It wasn't easy to get there because I was brought up in a school and wider cultural environment where masculinity was ruthlessly policed. My dad never cried and neither did I, not after I learned that was the gateway to relentless bullying that would try to make you cry more. Violence between boys was common and adults turned a blind eye because "boys will be boys". God forbid you got labelled a poof or a homo, the only recourse would be to vigorously deny and thereby hurt anyone who actually was heading that way.
My mother was a committed second wave feminist but a raised consciousness and Andrea Dworkin and Kate Millett did not prepare her for this whether or not you think this is a responsibility she should have taken on.
I learned very little about how to relate to women and a lot of what I did learn from my equally ignorant peers, books and songs etc was frankly horrifying. (Good work Metafilter, you filled in a lot of gaps for me over the years).
I knew something was very wrong by the time Iron John came out and I read it and found it equal parts illuminating and cringe. I guess the appeal of the far-right and the incels and the manosphere to some males is that they have got the emotional appeal down but don't seem cringe if you are already deeply soaked in toxic masculinity. Come join us and we will feel your pain (and get you to blame it on women instead of all the stunted dudes who actually shaped you).
By accident and a little design I now have supportive friendships with other men and we talk, and for one reason and another, I think we have a good and defensible outlook. How you would bootstrap that if you don't move in the right circles I have no idea, you would have to know what to want which is kind of the problem. Am not sure if I want to be or could be a missionary for this (which I know cedes the ground to fundy Christians and cookers and incels).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:05 PM on June 6 [12 favorites]
Dad, as a fixture in a child’s life, isn’t a person the way the child and his friends are. … Dad’s a resource, not a Very Special Episode of Bluey.
Dad, like Mom, can and should be a source of safety and closeness. One of the biggest disservices we do to men is claim that gestating and birth parents have some sort of intuitive and superior claim to being an idealized object for infant attachment and all of the research tells us that it’s just not true. Any competent caregiver can be that for a child, and kids can have more than one! And should! Dads as fixtures and resources is a myth created by cultural conditioning, rigid gender roles, and gatekeeping.
I’m just never gonna say that there isn’t so much more for everyone when everyone has their needs met and can express a full range of emotions and care and be cared for.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 7:52 PM on June 6 [13 favorites]
Dad, like Mom, can and should be a source of safety and closeness. One of the biggest disservices we do to men is claim that gestating and birth parents have some sort of intuitive and superior claim to being an idealized object for infant attachment and all of the research tells us that it’s just not true. Any competent caregiver can be that for a child, and kids can have more than one! And should! Dads as fixtures and resources is a myth created by cultural conditioning, rigid gender roles, and gatekeeping.
I’m just never gonna say that there isn’t so much more for everyone when everyone has their needs met and can express a full range of emotions and care and be cared for.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 7:52 PM on June 6 [13 favorites]
The thing about not talking to your kids about what you’re feeling (in an age-appropriate way, not dumping on them) is that kids can tell that something is up. Especially younger kids, they’re pretty observant. So pretending like nothing is going on just ends up being confusing and emotionally destabilizing and runs the risk of inadvertently teaching kids actively inaccurate or harmful things about their own emotions. There are some good scripts or examples in several of the comments above for how to talk to kids about your emotions in a way that maintains their sense of stability and safety. As another commenter noted, acknowledging your feelings to a child is not the same as dumping on the child - one can acknowledge or name/describe one’s feelings without making them someone else’s responsibility.
This applies in relationships between two adults, as well. I certainly know women who are not good at listening to men’s emotions (mostly due to the combo of their own internalized patriarchy along with the abysmally low general level of knowledge about mental health in North America - side note that everyone should take a mental health first aid course if it’s available to you, and that this should be as common as standard first aid), but based on my lifetime of experiences, I also wonder if there is sometimes a misunderstanding or disconnect between one partner wishing the other would talk about their emotions more in the verbalizing and acknowledging sense, while the other partner interprets that in the emotional dumping/offloading of responsibility sense.
posted by eviemath at 9:15 PM on June 6 [14 favorites]
This applies in relationships between two adults, as well. I certainly know women who are not good at listening to men’s emotions (mostly due to the combo of their own internalized patriarchy along with the abysmally low general level of knowledge about mental health in North America - side note that everyone should take a mental health first aid course if it’s available to you, and that this should be as common as standard first aid), but based on my lifetime of experiences, I also wonder if there is sometimes a misunderstanding or disconnect between one partner wishing the other would talk about their emotions more in the verbalizing and acknowledging sense, while the other partner interprets that in the emotional dumping/offloading of responsibility sense.
posted by eviemath at 9:15 PM on June 6 [14 favorites]
What a lovely thread this has become in the last 24 hrs. Thank you for all the personal stories all contributors.
posted by creiszhanson at 3:13 AM on June 7 [5 favorites]
posted by creiszhanson at 3:13 AM on June 7 [5 favorites]
I'm gonna say it: this thread has been an emotional rollercoaster.
posted by grubi at 5:25 AM on June 7 [6 favorites]
posted by grubi at 5:25 AM on June 7 [6 favorites]
But what's just as clear to me is that it'll continue to be my job in relationships to manage my panic attacks alone.You might have dodged bullets?
Look, I'm not saying they they're wrong. Clearly they're allowed to set boundaries they need. But, can't imagine just...Doing that to a person.
"I'm in distress!"
"I need you to pull your shit together so I can visit my friends."
Sound kinda patriarchal to me. Even if it didn't come from a place of unexamined patriarchy, a single instance of a panic attack is not a pattern of abuse.
But then, I will grant the women of your story the similae grace. All three likely have gone through some harrowing emotional abuse.
But she responsibility is also on them to work though that. Turning around and displaying a stunning lack of empathy for someone like that? Yikes.
Though, building in some coping skills for panic attacks won't be a bad thing!
posted by jonnay at 6:07 AM on June 7 [9 favorites]
You might have dodged bullets?
Dang, I'll say.
When I was in high school there was a brief period during which my boyfriend and I both worked at movie theaters, but different ones, so we could see movies for free in TWO PLACES. It was amazing. One weekend we went to his theater and saw The Killing Fields. He could not stop crying after that movie. We sat in the parking lot for a long time because he couldn't see to drive or think about doing anything but cry. He'd stop for a while and get ready to get going and then be swamped again. There was no comfort to be offered: that's why he was unable to stop crying in the first place, but I held his hand and hugged and kissed him.
I did not feel contempt for him at all: quite the opposite. I don't remember what, if anything, we said to each other but I do remember knowing to the depths of me that I was very lucky to know him and that I loved him and that he was a better person than I and too good for me because I cried at ATT's "reach out and touch someone" commercials and every bit of pandering trash I ran across but this movie about actual tragedy did not make me cry. He grew up to be exactly the man I predicted in the movie theater parking lot. He became a biologist and went Viet Nam to try to save cranes and turtles and then he became a nurse practitioner and a gentle and loving and excellent father like his own dear father before him.
In conclusion, if you cry and they turn their back on you, great: thank God for small favors. Know your own worth; turn your own back; walk away in any direction; search for someone worthy of you.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:32 AM on June 7 [24 favorites]
Dang, I'll say.
When I was in high school there was a brief period during which my boyfriend and I both worked at movie theaters, but different ones, so we could see movies for free in TWO PLACES. It was amazing. One weekend we went to his theater and saw The Killing Fields. He could not stop crying after that movie. We sat in the parking lot for a long time because he couldn't see to drive or think about doing anything but cry. He'd stop for a while and get ready to get going and then be swamped again. There was no comfort to be offered: that's why he was unable to stop crying in the first place, but I held his hand and hugged and kissed him.
I did not feel contempt for him at all: quite the opposite. I don't remember what, if anything, we said to each other but I do remember knowing to the depths of me that I was very lucky to know him and that I loved him and that he was a better person than I and too good for me because I cried at ATT's "reach out and touch someone" commercials and every bit of pandering trash I ran across but this movie about actual tragedy did not make me cry. He grew up to be exactly the man I predicted in the movie theater parking lot. He became a biologist and went Viet Nam to try to save cranes and turtles and then he became a nurse practitioner and a gentle and loving and excellent father like his own dear father before him.
In conclusion, if you cry and they turn their back on you, great: thank God for small favors. Know your own worth; turn your own back; walk away in any direction; search for someone worthy of you.
posted by Don Pepino at 6:32 AM on June 7 [24 favorites]
based on my lifetime of experiences, I also wonder if there is sometimes a misunderstanding or disconnect between one partner wishing the other would talk about their emotions more in the verbalizing and acknowledging sense, while the other partner interprets that in the emotional dumping/offloading of responsibility sense.
I think - and this is something I am newly thinking about - that some of the problem and disconnect comes from the fact that we are not that far out from romantic relationships being necessary for survival for many women, and in fact some women are still in those places. And I think for women who feel like they are making an economic bargain, it feels rather like your boss is asking you to do more work, rather than a genuine human relationship.
And I can tell this, because I spent a long period of time in what I’ll call a transactional romantic relationship, even if it wasn’t primarily economic. I was engaging in it with the intention of having children, and he was engaging in it with the expectation that I would do the cooking and cleaning and hosting and make him look good. And in that relationship, I bitterly resented feeling like he “dumped” emotions on me, because it felt like another thing I was being asked to do for a payout that I wasn’t receiving. (He refused to do physical testing for kids for several years) And if I am being honest about it, that relationship was not primarily a human relationship, it was an employer-employee relationship. And I was scared by his anger, because I had no faith that he wouldn’t hurt me after it. We did not have a base of trust.
But I am now in a non-transactional romantic relationship, and I am genuinely excited to take on emotional difficulties of my male partner. I want to help him, I want to know him further. When he’s angry, I don’t even perceive it as a threat because I know absolutely he would never hurt me. We are not employee and employer, we are two humans building something beautiful. Sex is in fact “better under socialism”, and so are human relationships and the ability to care for emotional needs.
It makes me realize that that first model of interaction is actively poisonous and taints human relations. And I say this in this particular thread especially because it also taints men’s reactions and where they can go for safety and help. Because I think that many men of my generation have no way to even tell which kind of relationship they’re in, and so reaching out to their female partner is a mess of land mines. They don’t know whether their partner will be reacting as an employee or an equal. And if they started as the first, they’re not sure how to change it to the second.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on June 7 [26 favorites]
I think - and this is something I am newly thinking about - that some of the problem and disconnect comes from the fact that we are not that far out from romantic relationships being necessary for survival for many women, and in fact some women are still in those places. And I think for women who feel like they are making an economic bargain, it feels rather like your boss is asking you to do more work, rather than a genuine human relationship.
And I can tell this, because I spent a long period of time in what I’ll call a transactional romantic relationship, even if it wasn’t primarily economic. I was engaging in it with the intention of having children, and he was engaging in it with the expectation that I would do the cooking and cleaning and hosting and make him look good. And in that relationship, I bitterly resented feeling like he “dumped” emotions on me, because it felt like another thing I was being asked to do for a payout that I wasn’t receiving. (He refused to do physical testing for kids for several years) And if I am being honest about it, that relationship was not primarily a human relationship, it was an employer-employee relationship. And I was scared by his anger, because I had no faith that he wouldn’t hurt me after it. We did not have a base of trust.
But I am now in a non-transactional romantic relationship, and I am genuinely excited to take on emotional difficulties of my male partner. I want to help him, I want to know him further. When he’s angry, I don’t even perceive it as a threat because I know absolutely he would never hurt me. We are not employee and employer, we are two humans building something beautiful. Sex is in fact “better under socialism”, and so are human relationships and the ability to care for emotional needs.
It makes me realize that that first model of interaction is actively poisonous and taints human relations. And I say this in this particular thread especially because it also taints men’s reactions and where they can go for safety and help. Because I think that many men of my generation have no way to even tell which kind of relationship they’re in, and so reaching out to their female partner is a mess of land mines. They don’t know whether their partner will be reacting as an employee or an equal. And if they started as the first, they’re not sure how to change it to the second.
posted by corb at 9:22 AM on June 7 [26 favorites]
And I say this in this particular thread especially because it also taints men’s reactions and where they can go for safety and help. Because I think that many men of my generation have no way to even tell which kind of relationship they’re in, and so reaching out to their female partner is a mess of land mines. They don’t know whether their partner will be reacting as an employee or an equal. And if they started as the first, they’re not sure how to change it to the second.
Yes, I was going to say this myself but didn't: there are, I think, a lot of men out there who want a relationship of equals with women (romantic or otherwise), but don't know how to enact that. If you're afraid you might not be in an equal relationship, one way to feel like you're "equalizing" it is to not ask for help or ask how to help them.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:35 AM on June 7 [6 favorites]
Yes, I was going to say this myself but didn't: there are, I think, a lot of men out there who want a relationship of equals with women (romantic or otherwise), but don't know how to enact that. If you're afraid you might not be in an equal relationship, one way to feel like you're "equalizing" it is to not ask for help or ask how to help them.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:35 AM on June 7 [6 favorites]
I think that many men of my generation have no way to even tell which kind of relationship they’re in, and so reaching out to their female partner is a mess of land mines.
I think this is absolutely the case, and I also think it's telling that the only emotion you name your male partners having is anger. A lot of men have been socialized to be much more emotionally incoherent to themselves than they realize.
A book that was truly life-changing for me in unpacking some gendered emotional architecture in myself was bell hooks' The Will to Change. She talks a lot about how patriarchal masculinity often traps men in an emotional cycle where 1) Men aren't allowed to have any emotion but anger 2) A man feels an emotion that isn't anger 3) Said man is embarassed to feel such an unmanly emotion so 4) The embarassment and emotion are transmuted into anger at whatever caused the man to feel that way instead of having to directly grapple with the original emotion itself.
I resonated a lot with some of the descriptions of emotionally withdrawn fathers in this thread because I had such a father, but also because I did not realize how much I myself fell into a similar trap for quite a while. I saw my role, especially in my closest relationships, as being a stable, reliable rock. There is something beautiful in being able to be that for others, but it can also cause you to completely neglect the idea that you yourself have needs or that it might be good and right to seek help from others sometimes. I've never been an angry person, but am all too familiar with internalizing my emotions via embarassment into guilt and shame instead of feeling and dealing with them. I was raised feminist and like to think I've always been a respectful and empathetic person in my relationships, but I was unknowingly quite cruel to myself for a long time because it was easier to play the role I'd learned than to honestly engage with my pain, and I think I'm far from unique in that. There was real grief in unpacking how much I'd hurt myself and also (indirectly but truly) shortchanged my partners by withholding. However good my intentions were, playing that role I couldn't even see caused plenty of pain.
A lot of male anger, I think, comes from a place of fear and embarassment and avoidance of broader feelings of negative emotion. I mean in no way to excuse it or to minimize the very real harm that male anger causes all across society, but even in relationships where the anger isn't toxic or destructive it's so sad that men are not socialized or taught to have any sort of emotional toolkit, that often they not only don't have many or any relationships where they can be open and vulnerable but they also don't see this lack because they are too busy working to avoid having to see their emotional pain.
I think the only way to a better place, as has been mentioned variously here, is to educate everyone to be more emotionally intelligent inwards and outwards both, and to dismantle the patriarchy in their heads. (I mean ideally to never learn it, but we gotta get there.)
posted by lhputtgrass at 10:37 AM on June 7 [21 favorites]
I think this is absolutely the case, and I also think it's telling that the only emotion you name your male partners having is anger. A lot of men have been socialized to be much more emotionally incoherent to themselves than they realize.
A book that was truly life-changing for me in unpacking some gendered emotional architecture in myself was bell hooks' The Will to Change. She talks a lot about how patriarchal masculinity often traps men in an emotional cycle where 1) Men aren't allowed to have any emotion but anger 2) A man feels an emotion that isn't anger 3) Said man is embarassed to feel such an unmanly emotion so 4) The embarassment and emotion are transmuted into anger at whatever caused the man to feel that way instead of having to directly grapple with the original emotion itself.
I resonated a lot with some of the descriptions of emotionally withdrawn fathers in this thread because I had such a father, but also because I did not realize how much I myself fell into a similar trap for quite a while. I saw my role, especially in my closest relationships, as being a stable, reliable rock. There is something beautiful in being able to be that for others, but it can also cause you to completely neglect the idea that you yourself have needs or that it might be good and right to seek help from others sometimes. I've never been an angry person, but am all too familiar with internalizing my emotions via embarassment into guilt and shame instead of feeling and dealing with them. I was raised feminist and like to think I've always been a respectful and empathetic person in my relationships, but I was unknowingly quite cruel to myself for a long time because it was easier to play the role I'd learned than to honestly engage with my pain, and I think I'm far from unique in that. There was real grief in unpacking how much I'd hurt myself and also (indirectly but truly) shortchanged my partners by withholding. However good my intentions were, playing that role I couldn't even see caused plenty of pain.
A lot of male anger, I think, comes from a place of fear and embarassment and avoidance of broader feelings of negative emotion. I mean in no way to excuse it or to minimize the very real harm that male anger causes all across society, but even in relationships where the anger isn't toxic or destructive it's so sad that men are not socialized or taught to have any sort of emotional toolkit, that often they not only don't have many or any relationships where they can be open and vulnerable but they also don't see this lack because they are too busy working to avoid having to see their emotional pain.
I think the only way to a better place, as has been mentioned variously here, is to educate everyone to be more emotionally intelligent inwards and outwards both, and to dismantle the patriarchy in their heads. (I mean ideally to never learn it, but we gotta get there.)
posted by lhputtgrass at 10:37 AM on June 7 [21 favorites]
It makes me realize that that first model of interaction is actively poisonous and taints human relations
🎵 patriarchy hurts everyone 🎵& costs everyone, even if the prices we each pay are not the same
ok done now but anyone who wants to talk more can memail me :)
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 12:24 PM on June 7 [1 favorite]
🎵 patriarchy hurts everyone 🎵& costs everyone, even if the prices we each pay are not the same
ok done now but anyone who wants to talk more can memail me :)
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 12:24 PM on June 7 [1 favorite]
1) Men aren't encouraged to identify any emotion but anger
2) A man feels an emotion that isn't anger
3) Said man is embarassed to feel such an unmanly emotion so
4) The embarassment and emotion are transmuted into anger at whatever caused the man to feel that way instead of having to directly grapple with the original emotion itself
5) The underlying emotion continues to disrupt his life until he bottoms out and seeks help
6) The man learns anger is often a mask and learns to identify the underlying emotion
7) The man expresses the underlying emotion, probably unskillfully
8) The man is told he’s demanding emotional labour and speaking over the problems that actually matter, unlike his
9) Return to step 1.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 12:41 PM on June 7 [12 favorites]
2) A man feels an emotion that isn't anger
3) Said man is embarassed to feel such an unmanly emotion so
4) The embarassment and emotion are transmuted into anger at whatever caused the man to feel that way instead of having to directly grapple with the original emotion itself
5) The underlying emotion continues to disrupt his life until he bottoms out and seeks help
6) The man learns anger is often a mask and learns to identify the underlying emotion
7) The man expresses the underlying emotion, probably unskillfully
8) The man is told he’s demanding emotional labour and speaking over the problems that actually matter, unlike his
9) Return to step 1.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 12:41 PM on June 7 [12 favorites]
From what I've seen, kind and thoughtful men who are trying to undo the patterns of patriarchy also struggle with expressing anger, because they (and a lot of non-men too) are terrified of anger and it's potential to do harm.
Being angry, expressing anger, is seen to be dangerous and something only harmful people do. You're supposed to deal with anger in private and not impose on anyone else, or that seems to be the belief.
Many of us who aren't men also struggle with this, but I think there's a particularly difficult aspect of this for men, who might fear that expressing anger = abuse.
posted by Zumbador at 1:07 PM on June 7 [10 favorites]
Being angry, expressing anger, is seen to be dangerous and something only harmful people do. You're supposed to deal with anger in private and not impose on anyone else, or that seems to be the belief.
Many of us who aren't men also struggle with this, but I think there's a particularly difficult aspect of this for men, who might fear that expressing anger = abuse.
posted by Zumbador at 1:07 PM on June 7 [10 favorites]
Being angry, expressing anger, is seen to be dangerous and something only harmful people do. You're supposed to deal with anger in private and not impose on anyone else, or that seems to be the belief.
This is because our society vilifies anger - and it does that because it fears rightful, righteous anger. And this is horrible, because a) there are horrible, monstrous things in this world that should make you angry and make you want to make them right, and b) the problem with hurtful people is that they hurt people - not that they might get angry while doing it, or use their anger as an excuse for their harms.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:20 PM on June 7 [1 favorite]
This is because our society vilifies anger - and it does that because it fears rightful, righteous anger. And this is horrible, because a) there are horrible, monstrous things in this world that should make you angry and make you want to make them right, and b) the problem with hurtful people is that they hurt people - not that they might get angry while doing it, or use their anger as an excuse for their harms.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:20 PM on June 7 [1 favorite]
This is because our society vilifies anger - and it does that because it fears rightful, righteous anger.
I would say the opposite. I think society glorifies ‘righteous’ anger, for certain values of ‘righteous’.
posted by bq at 2:00 PM on June 7 [7 favorites]
I would say the opposite. I think society glorifies ‘righteous’ anger, for certain values of ‘righteous’.
posted by bq at 2:00 PM on June 7 [7 favorites]
I literally just had a dude in my local subreddit accuse my husband of being secretly "gay" and "cringe af" because he likes to get pedicures. Christ. He said straight dudes don't do that.
posted by Kitteh at 4:10 PM on June 7 [5 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:10 PM on June 7 [5 favorites]
I'm a straight male, and I routinely get pedicures for fucking foot health.
(eyetwitch)
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:56 PM on June 7 [4 favorites]
(eyetwitch)
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:56 PM on June 7 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this article has a real "but what about Black-on-Black crime?" vibe followed by "are you saying Black-on-Black crime doesn't happen?"
The NYT has got their progressive-bashing ragebait down to a science at this point.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:29 AM on June 8 [10 favorites]
The NYT has got their progressive-bashing ragebait down to a science at this point.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:29 AM on June 8 [10 favorites]
All of this was really underlined for me this morning as I reflected on the smug celebration in response to new reporting that the Gaza death toll has been revised to reflect more male deaths than deaths of “women and children” (though surely kids in their late teens are among those “male deaths”) & the fact that new reporting on torture in IDF facilities has mentioned that Palestinian men are being sexually assaulted with hot metal rods is only a minor disclosure in these stories.
It’s not just about American boys and men, but how we think about boys and men everywhere.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 7:13 AM on June 8 [6 favorites]
It’s not just about American boys and men, but how we think about boys and men everywhere.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 7:13 AM on June 8 [6 favorites]
I'm a straight male, and I routinely get pedicures for fucking foot health.
I got my first pedicure at the beginning of the year, at the suggestion of my girlfriend, and it was great, would highly recommend! It was a basic one, about $40 not including the tip, but it felt absolutely fantastic to be cared for in healthy and non-relationship way that left me and my feet feeling and looking better. Just as one can go the gym for self care, one can also go get a pedicure. Note, a pedicure which does not have to include getting your toes painted. You can if you want to and that's totally fine if you do, but you don't have to.
I've carried the lessons from pedicure forward, to where i'm exfoliating my feet about 1-3 times a week in the shower with a pumice stone, getting rid of the hard dead skin, leaving my feet feeling soft and looking so much and it's great! Plus it takes all of 2-3 minutes and can be done in the shower. Another tool in the self care toolbox!
The pumice stone came with an in house foot massager, which ultimately I gave away after one use because it was too small for my size 11 feet. But still, it was overall relaxing and will probably get a larger one. It felt good to just chill for 15-20 minutes with getting the feet gently massaged in warm water.
Have also been using this facial scrubber for men with beards, along with Nivea moisturizer for men, to keep my face feeling and looker softer.
These things only take a little bit of time and it feels great mentally to know that I'm doing little things to take care of myself.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on June 8 [8 favorites]
I got my first pedicure at the beginning of the year, at the suggestion of my girlfriend, and it was great, would highly recommend! It was a basic one, about $40 not including the tip, but it felt absolutely fantastic to be cared for in healthy and non-relationship way that left me and my feet feeling and looking better. Just as one can go the gym for self care, one can also go get a pedicure. Note, a pedicure which does not have to include getting your toes painted. You can if you want to and that's totally fine if you do, but you don't have to.
I've carried the lessons from pedicure forward, to where i'm exfoliating my feet about 1-3 times a week in the shower with a pumice stone, getting rid of the hard dead skin, leaving my feet feeling soft and looking so much and it's great! Plus it takes all of 2-3 minutes and can be done in the shower. Another tool in the self care toolbox!
The pumice stone came with an in house foot massager, which ultimately I gave away after one use because it was too small for my size 11 feet. But still, it was overall relaxing and will probably get a larger one. It felt good to just chill for 15-20 minutes with getting the feet gently massaged in warm water.
Have also been using this facial scrubber for men with beards, along with Nivea moisturizer for men, to keep my face feeling and looker softer.
These things only take a little bit of time and it feels great mentally to know that I'm doing little things to take care of myself.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:07 AM on June 8 [8 favorites]
Mental health interventions like therapy and peer support are much like pedicures: the men who’ve availed themselves of the services enjoy and celebrate the benefits and will advocate that they are in no way emasculating, while the service providers themselves make no effort to market their services to men in a way that would help men overcome their misgivings. Could the mascu-bro barbershops in my neighbourhood not also be offering pedicures and changing the femme aura around them without losing customers? Soap and bodywash companies have figured it out.
But when the NHL wants to talk about men's mental health, they put on their solemn Very Special Episode faces and make it clear that men are to blame for thinking it’s weak to ask for help. The responsibility for men not reaching out is never shared with the service providers who’ve done nothing to dispel the idea that what’s being offered is a Permanent Victim Identity. I was repelled by the idea of Sitting In A Circle And Wallowing In Your Pain, and so were the men who couldn’t take my word for it that it wasn’t actually that.
This is not to say that men can't make a difference here. A fellow raging lunatic and I were going at it about this sort of issue in the laundromat one day when a guy came over and calmly explained to us in not so many words that there is actually something on the other side of the pain, but unfortunately the only way out is through. I still only signed up for what worked once everything else I’d attempted had failed miserably, but his intervention that day had stayed with me and it gave me some faith that staring down the ways I’d been harmed didn’t mean I was opting for a lifetime of victimhood status. We already know it gives you the ick.
I don’t know if it’s the Deficit frame around mental ‘illness’ or the commodification of trauma or what, but quite apart from sometimes demonstrating a willingness to shut down or otherwise abuse vulnerable men, mental health services seem to have very little interest in presenting themselves to the men in need of them in a way that would make it easier for them to buy in.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 1:11 PM on June 8 [5 favorites]
But when the NHL wants to talk about men's mental health, they put on their solemn Very Special Episode faces and make it clear that men are to blame for thinking it’s weak to ask for help. The responsibility for men not reaching out is never shared with the service providers who’ve done nothing to dispel the idea that what’s being offered is a Permanent Victim Identity. I was repelled by the idea of Sitting In A Circle And Wallowing In Your Pain, and so were the men who couldn’t take my word for it that it wasn’t actually that.
This is not to say that men can't make a difference here. A fellow raging lunatic and I were going at it about this sort of issue in the laundromat one day when a guy came over and calmly explained to us in not so many words that there is actually something on the other side of the pain, but unfortunately the only way out is through. I still only signed up for what worked once everything else I’d attempted had failed miserably, but his intervention that day had stayed with me and it gave me some faith that staring down the ways I’d been harmed didn’t mean I was opting for a lifetime of victimhood status. We already know it gives you the ick.
I don’t know if it’s the Deficit frame around mental ‘illness’ or the commodification of trauma or what, but quite apart from sometimes demonstrating a willingness to shut down or otherwise abuse vulnerable men, mental health services seem to have very little interest in presenting themselves to the men in need of them in a way that would make it easier for them to buy in.
posted by Paddle to Sea at 1:11 PM on June 8 [5 favorites]
You can teach your boys to communicate emotionally, but it's going to suck for them when they grow up and find that "progressive" women view most of their displays of emotion as a threat.
The outside world may change, or not. Our children may carry the home with them in their minds for the rest of their lives. I think this points to making the home an accepting place, even if it is a little out of step with the culture.
Separately, (I haven't heard this expressed by anyone else in this exact way, so I might be very off-base) but I think being able to express anger humanely is a good skill to develop, making anger less frightening to be around (and express!).
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 4:42 PM on June 8 [13 favorites]
The outside world may change, or not. Our children may carry the home with them in their minds for the rest of their lives. I think this points to making the home an accepting place, even if it is a little out of step with the culture.
Separately, (I haven't heard this expressed by anyone else in this exact way, so I might be very off-base) but I think being able to express anger humanely is a good skill to develop, making anger less frightening to be around (and express!).
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 4:42 PM on June 8 [13 favorites]
I think it's up to men to fix masculinity
...And it should also be up to sick people to fix germs. I mean, they're the one making the germs, and they're the ones who are complaining about them making them "feel bad". They're really the most motivated and authoritative, and even if the rest of us might potentially suffer from germs, we're not the cause of them, right?
posted by amtho at 12:26 PM on June 9 [7 favorites]
...And it should also be up to sick people to fix germs. I mean, they're the one making the germs, and they're the ones who are complaining about them making them "feel bad". They're really the most motivated and authoritative, and even if the rest of us might potentially suffer from germs, we're not the cause of them, right?
posted by amtho at 12:26 PM on June 9 [7 favorites]
Sick people don't collectively define germs.
posted by Dysk at 4:48 PM on June 9 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:48 PM on June 9 [4 favorites]
(Also we do sometimes give sick people responsibility for not continuing to pass on their sickness! e.g. Covid mask mandates, quarantine/self-isolation requirements, staying off work if you're contagious, etc., the obverse of which is the negative Typhoid Mary style figure precisely for a sick person who doesn't take their responsibilities with regard to their sickness seriously.)
posted by Dysk at 5:09 PM on June 9 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 5:09 PM on June 9 [4 favorites]
Definitely! We definitely do sometimes. But why should any of the rest of us not-sick people be expected to spend any of our time dealing with their disgusting and dangerous illnesses when they are not our fault. We just want to be left alone to get our work done and maybe travel some, if the sickos haven't ruined travel for everyone.
posted by amtho at 12:30 AM on June 10
posted by amtho at 12:30 AM on June 10
Outside of pandemic times that's exactly what we do? Trained professionals treat sick people, who are otherwise expected to take responsibility for their own illness, while everyone else continues to go to work, school play?
It's not a great analogy anyway.
posted by Dysk at 1:06 AM on June 10 [2 favorites]
It's not a great analogy anyway.
posted by Dysk at 1:06 AM on June 10 [2 favorites]
Exactly what I was saying, as long as all the trained professionals are sick people, and the well people are all doing more important things!
posted by amtho at 2:20 AM on June 10
posted by amtho at 2:20 AM on June 10
Oh, also, everybody writing and talking about sickness, and the sick people know better than to mention or ask about their sickness with non-sick people -- and if they do, they're thoroughly shamed and condemned and reminded, forcefully, that nobody wants to deal with their sicky sick grossness.
posted by amtho at 2:21 AM on June 10
posted by amtho at 2:21 AM on June 10
At this point the analogy has broken down so far that you might as well just say the thing directly. It's not serving any function.
posted by Dysk at 2:52 AM on June 10 [13 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:52 AM on June 10 [13 favorites]
Thanks for engaging on this, though, Dysk. You're helping me refine and improve my communication around this issue -- it's challenging, because every time I say one thing, people tend to assume I don't know about all the issues I'm not mentioning at the same time. This way I learn about some of those assumptions, so I know which need to be mentioned and can plan how to do so most efficiently. Thanks!
posted by amtho at 5:53 AM on June 11 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 5:53 AM on June 11 [1 favorite]
I have to admit I started reading this thread with trepidation, given my past experiences in threads on the blue around boys/men's issues (on the bright side, those past experiences led me to seek out r/menslib, which is a great, pro-feminist space on men's issues that also keeps the focus on the men's issues rather than positioning them as less important than other groups' issues). But I've been impressed by the dialog, and the maturity with which some folks who early on came on pretty strong were able to hear other views and come to some more nuanced positions. Nice job, metafilter!
posted by mabelstreet at 10:26 PM on June 12 [2 favorites]
posted by mabelstreet at 10:26 PM on June 12 [2 favorites]
...And it should also be up to sick people to fix germs.
Sick people can't just decide to stop having germs or being sick. Toxic men can just decide to stop being shitty.
posted by VTX at 8:50 AM on June 13
Sick people can't just decide to stop having germs or being sick. Toxic men can just decide to stop being shitty.
posted by VTX at 8:50 AM on June 13
Toxic men can just decide to stop being shitty.
I want to push back on this, because it’s actually astonishingly hard to unlearn your every way of acting and being in all aspects of your life. This is made even harder when, as I noted above, there are few to no positive role models to follow.
Men who are trying still struggle - and honestly, a lot of our tolerance for this has gone radically down at a swifter pace than any societal change in history that I can think of.
posted by corb at 8:53 AM on June 13 [6 favorites]
I want to push back on this, because it’s actually astonishingly hard to unlearn your every way of acting and being in all aspects of your life. This is made even harder when, as I noted above, there are few to no positive role models to follow.
Men who are trying still struggle - and honestly, a lot of our tolerance for this has gone radically down at a swifter pace than any societal change in history that I can think of.
posted by corb at 8:53 AM on June 13 [6 favorites]
I came late to this thread, it was linked in a askme. Just finished reading. This thread has been amazing in all its grar and vulnerability, and clashing and listening and honesty. I am grateful to everyone for sharing their honest selves. It’s inspired me to be mindful of the ways I may be unconsciously shutting down the emotional expression of the boys and men in my life, and not just immediately presume I am not doing it because I’m not “one of those” people from whatever group is presumed to do it. We all have emotions we’re not comfortable with as we detangle our conditioning, which so many people spoke so sensitively about here, I felt very seen. Like it’s cruel biology that women’s fertility window is so short and there is so much growing up to do to be ready for the job of parenting, and some of it doesn’t show up till you have kids anyway, so you end up doing in parallel as someone mentioned above. “Why do parents have multiple kids? So at least someone isn’t raised by an amateur!” is true for me definitely.
Have seen first hand via my kiddos how much feeling a part of the brotherhood (or the sisterhood) impacts self esteem for the good. Even through in most cases the brotherhood is just Lego/minecraft and fart jokes. Like we all just want to feel like we belong somewhere and that we matter. We can put a lot of ideological wrappers around that but the base is we want to be part of the tribe.
These days schools and parenting is doing a lot to grow ourselves up so the tribe is healthy. We are only a few generations out from a massive world war, so it will be maybe my kid's kids who start to see it, or maybe even their kids. So, halfway through the 7 generations, which is a legit way of looking at it in my experience.
As they say in my circles, We are all just walking each other home.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:21 AM on June 13 [4 favorites]
Have seen first hand via my kiddos how much feeling a part of the brotherhood (or the sisterhood) impacts self esteem for the good. Even through in most cases the brotherhood is just Lego/minecraft and fart jokes. Like we all just want to feel like we belong somewhere and that we matter. We can put a lot of ideological wrappers around that but the base is we want to be part of the tribe.
These days schools and parenting is doing a lot to grow ourselves up so the tribe is healthy. We are only a few generations out from a massive world war, so it will be maybe my kid's kids who start to see it, or maybe even their kids. So, halfway through the 7 generations, which is a legit way of looking at it in my experience.
As they say in my circles, We are all just walking each other home.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:21 AM on June 13 [4 favorites]
it’s actually astonishingly hard to unlearn your every way of acting and being in all aspects of your life
Yeah, I can tell you that from first hand experience. Point is that it's something that a person actively chooses one way or the other. That choice might seem inevitable but it's still a choice. There aren't any actual biologic factors preventing someone from making a different choice.
Unlike being sick where your immune system works whether or not you want it to.
posted by VTX at 5:39 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I can tell you that from first hand experience. Point is that it's something that a person actively chooses one way or the other. That choice might seem inevitable but it's still a choice. There aren't any actual biologic factors preventing someone from making a different choice.
Unlike being sick where your immune system works whether or not you want it to.
posted by VTX at 5:39 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]
Raise your sons to teach kindergarten!
It’s probably extremely gauche to quote myself, but: the world listened to me! Well, the New York Times did, anyhow: Boys Are Struggling. Male Kindergarten Teachers Are Here to Help.
posted by eirias at 6:43 AM on June 27 [1 favorite]
It’s probably extremely gauche to quote myself, but: the world listened to me! Well, the New York Times did, anyhow: Boys Are Struggling. Male Kindergarten Teachers Are Here to Help.
posted by eirias at 6:43 AM on June 27 [1 favorite]
Tim Winton (Australian writer) did a marvelous article for Father's Day probably 20 years ago now. His father was a cop in Western Australia and young Tim was with him in the police car when they were notified of a car accident.
Dad and Tim get to the accident and it was a young man in the crashed car. The father of the victim then drives up and Tim's Dad gets in front of the crashed car stopping the victim's father from punching the injured young man. Tim's Dad calms the other father down until the ambulance drives off with the injured young man and makes sure that the father is not going to the hospital on his own.
Afterwards, Dad can see that Tim is stunned by what just happened. Dad explains, "There are men who only have one emotion that they can express - anger. So no matter what other emotion they SHOULD have, that is the only emotion they express. The father was really upset about seeing his injured son, but all he can do is get angry. I knew that was what he was going to do - that's why I got between him and his son."
I expect Tim Winton enjoys fatherhood as much as Tim Winton's children enjoy childhood.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 10:13 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]
Dad and Tim get to the accident and it was a young man in the crashed car. The father of the victim then drives up and Tim's Dad gets in front of the crashed car stopping the victim's father from punching the injured young man. Tim's Dad calms the other father down until the ambulance drives off with the injured young man and makes sure that the father is not going to the hospital on his own.
Afterwards, Dad can see that Tim is stunned by what just happened. Dad explains, "There are men who only have one emotion that they can express - anger. So no matter what other emotion they SHOULD have, that is the only emotion they express. The father was really upset about seeing his injured son, but all he can do is get angry. I knew that was what he was going to do - that's why I got between him and his son."
I expect Tim Winton enjoys fatherhood as much as Tim Winton's children enjoy childhood.
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 10:13 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]
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posted by HearHere at 6:11 AM on June 5