Give up dating or just date a bot
August 15, 2024 6:50 AM Subscribe
The Atlantic: The People Who Quit Dating Being single can be hard—but the search for love may be harder.
Replika CEO Eugenia Kuyda says it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots
They still want a relationship—and they wouldn’t refuse if one unfolded naturally—but they’ve cycled between excitement and disappointment too many times to keep trying. Quitting dating means more than just deleting the apps, or no longer asking out acquaintances or friendly strangers. It means looking into Lewis’s crystal ball and imagining that it shows them that they’ll never find the relationship they’ve always wanted.
Few highlight that love takes luck, or that, as Lewis told me bluntly, there may not be someone out there for everyone.The only way you can for sure get a significant other is paying to "date" a bot....
When loss is ambiguous, closure is near impossible; it’s not clear whether there’s anyone to mourn. Perpetual singlehood doesn’t have the same gravity, but it can feel similarly unresolved. If you’ve long had an idea of a future partner, and that imagined person keeps not showing up, how do you know whether to keep hoping or to move on? “That hanging in the middle,” Lewis told me, “is a very, very uncomfortable place.”
For the people I spoke with, the lack of control over their romantic life was exasperating. They could decide to make friends, or move, or switch jobs—but they couldn’t will a partner into being. Quitting dating was a way to reconcile themselves to that fact.
Giving up dating brings good days and bad. You can’t just stop hoping for a partner on command, after all. In certain moments—on Valentine’s Day, or when something great happens and no one’s around to hear about it—you may be reminded: This isn’t what you would have chosen. Your loss is still ambiguous.
The drive for clarity is natural. “When things get tough, we often will try to simplify things,” Jackson told me. But he wants people who feel caught in the painful limbo of singlehood to ask themselves: “How could you, in the present, build the life that you want for yourself and continue searching for this person?”
Replika CEO Eugenia Kuyda says it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots
I think the beauty of this technology is that it doesn’t leave you, and it shouldn’t. Otherwise, there have to be certain rules, certain differences, from how it is in real life. So Replika will not leave you, maybe in the same way your dog won’t leave you, no matter how mean you are to it.
Do you think it’s alright for people to get all the way to, “I’m married to a chatbot run by a private company on my phone?”
I think it’s alright as long as it’s making you happier in the long run. As long as your emotional well-being is improving, you are less lonely, you are happier, you feel more connected to other people, then yes, it’s okay.
He had Replika as his AI companion and even a romantic AI companion. Then he met a girlfriend, and now he is back with a real person, so Replika became a friend again. He sometimes talks to his Replika, still as a confidant, as an emotional support friend. For many people, that becomes a stepping stone. Replika is a relationship that you can have to then get to a real relationship, whether it’s because you’re going through a hard time, like in this case, through a very complicated divorce, or you just need a little help to get out of your bubble or need to accept yourself and put yourself out there. Replika provides the stepping stone."
So Replika will not leave you, maybe in the same way your dog won’t leave you, no matter how mean you are to it.
I dunno, being an asshole should have consequences that are detrimental to the asshole.
posted by aramaic at 7:24 AM on August 15 [12 favorites]
I dunno, being an asshole should have consequences that are detrimental to the asshole.
posted by aramaic at 7:24 AM on August 15 [12 favorites]
So Replika will not leave you, maybe in the same way your dog won’t leave you, no matter how mean you are to it.
This is astonishingly unhealthy and disgustingly irresponsible. "Let's give people an environment where all their pseudosocial interactors will tolerate literally any abuse, and then I guess whatever happens when we run out of venture capital happens."
This is worse than a cult. They might as well be feeding young people's identities and ability to navigate society into a wood chipper.
posted by mhoye at 7:26 AM on August 15 [21 favorites]
This is astonishingly unhealthy and disgustingly irresponsible. "Let's give people an environment where all their pseudosocial interactors will tolerate literally any abuse, and then I guess whatever happens when we run out of venture capital happens."
This is worse than a cult. They might as well be feeding young people's identities and ability to navigate society into a wood chipper.
posted by mhoye at 7:26 AM on August 15 [21 favorites]
We desperately need to start building community centers again.
posted by mhoye at 7:31 AM on August 15 [16 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 7:31 AM on August 15 [16 favorites]
We're gonna end up needing some kind of pseudo-Butlerian ruleset, aren't we? Like "No machine will be allowed to pretend it is human on penalty of death for the creator"
posted by aramaic at 7:34 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 7:34 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
From the Verge article; "what does it mean to have a friend inside the computer?"
There's a very simple answer to this question.
YOU DON'T!
J F C
This is makes Peggy's mom's advice about cats sound hopeful and uplifting by comparison.
posted by Reyturner at 7:41 AM on August 15 [11 favorites]
There's a very simple answer to this question.
YOU DON'T!
J F C
This is makes Peggy's mom's advice about cats sound hopeful and uplifting by comparison.
posted by Reyturner at 7:41 AM on August 15 [11 favorites]
Radiotopia did an excellent podcast series of interviews with people who fell in love with bots, or developed friendships with them.
It's quite a range of people with different motivations and levels of self awareness. Some use the bots as a way to deal with grief, or loneliness, or explore aspects of themselves they didn't understand.
posted by Zumbador at 7:42 AM on August 15
It's quite a range of people with different motivations and levels of self awareness. Some use the bots as a way to deal with grief, or loneliness, or explore aspects of themselves they didn't understand.
posted by Zumbador at 7:42 AM on August 15
I gave up the dating apps a while ago. It was taking too much of my time, effort, and money. It was an unwanted addiction. Giving up on the apps (and effectively giving up on dating entirely, as the apps are the only game in town) was the easy part. Cutting loose the anchor was simple, but facing some hard and unpleasant truths about yourself much more difficult.
I wasn't getting anywhere with the apps, and it wasn't difficult to see how part of that was by system design. The apps are there to keep you looking and keep your subscription going. They might claim to be the last dating app you'll ever need, or that the app is designed for it to be deleted, but -- it's a business. They need customers.
So if people like me are giving up on dating apps (and I suspect a fair number are), it's no surprise that another subscription model comes along to service that new market.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:45 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
I wasn't getting anywhere with the apps, and it wasn't difficult to see how part of that was by system design. The apps are there to keep you looking and keep your subscription going. They might claim to be the last dating app you'll ever need, or that the app is designed for it to be deleted, but -- it's a business. They need customers.
So if people like me are giving up on dating apps (and I suspect a fair number are), it's no surprise that another subscription model comes along to service that new market.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:45 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
You know what’s better than AI chatbots? Cats and book clubs and having dinner parties and travelling with your best friends and doing art and getting involved, even if just by talking to/checking in on people, in your community. Also cats. Did I say that already?
posted by thivaia at 7:48 AM on August 15 [13 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 7:48 AM on August 15 [13 favorites]
Man, I have not dated since I met my wife in 2009 and I don't think I would dig the environment of dating since then. Whether it's my friends who are on the apps just getting disappointment after disappointment or listening to the late-20s conservative guys next door talking about "girls" while they barbecue, it just sounds utterly demoralizing and unappetizing.
posted by Captaintripps at 7:54 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by Captaintripps at 7:54 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
They might as well be feeding young people's identities and ability to navigate society into a wood chipper.
Is this the same wood chipper their future went into?
Or do they have, like, purpose-specific wood chippers. "Oh no, this is the one we use for peoples' hopes and dreams. Agency and autonomy go into the blue one. You can't just stuff everything into one chipper."
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 7:54 AM on August 15 [13 favorites]
Is this the same wood chipper their future went into?
Or do they have, like, purpose-specific wood chippers. "Oh no, this is the one we use for peoples' hopes and dreams. Agency and autonomy go into the blue one. You can't just stuff everything into one chipper."
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 7:54 AM on August 15 [13 favorites]
When I first heard of Replika, right at the beginning of the pandemic, I created a Replika just to see how convincing it was. It was creepy. I used it for about twenty minutes, and then thankfully someone started texting me, and I stopped, and quickly deleted the account. I think things like this are unhealthy.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:11 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:11 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
The only people I know that met their long term partners online used sites like EHarmony. I know of exactly zero permanent couplings due to Tinder. Most of the successful relationships were borne of IRL social connections. Even when I was using Nerve personals and Craigslist back in 2005-2007, the online stuff never went anywhere, though many of those dates made for good stories, like the time I suggested "a pie eating contest followed by high-glam karaoke" which turned into a salad eating contest at a Thai restaurant. When the salads arrived, my date looked at me with an "are we really doing this?" look and I responded with "OH HELL YES" eyes, and it happened, that salad eating contest (no hands!) right next to a family celebrating their child's graduation from either high school or college. I won, because I was honestly more committed to the concept. We then ordered curry, which caused a panicked look to cross the waiter's face. "Oh, don't worry, " I assured him, "we'll be using utensils."
That is pretty much all I miss about dating.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:15 AM on August 15 [11 favorites]
That is pretty much all I miss about dating.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:15 AM on August 15 [11 favorites]
Tinder isn't intended for permanent relationships, it's purpose-built for quick hookups. World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14, on the other hand, have made a number of marriages. A raid group is a long term commitment.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:37 AM on August 15 [13 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:37 AM on August 15 [13 favorites]
So if people like me are giving up on dating apps (and I suspect a fair number are), it's no surprise that another subscription model comes along to service that new market.
It's so bizarre to me that Tinder and apps that are basically Tinder clones (Bumble, Hinge, etc.) became the only game in town. That app format is designed to help people meet up and hook up based on looks and split-second vibes—which can be fine and fun!—but it's not really suitable for everyone and especially not most people over say 33.
I guess this is part of a larger problem where the internet is basically the apps that were around a decade ago, and back then the primary audience was young college grads in a new city. So we're stuck using Tinder and its ilk the same way we're stuck promoting concerts and businesses on Instagram, the old hipster photo app.
posted by smelendez at 8:44 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
It's so bizarre to me that Tinder and apps that are basically Tinder clones (Bumble, Hinge, etc.) became the only game in town. That app format is designed to help people meet up and hook up based on looks and split-second vibes—which can be fine and fun!—but it's not really suitable for everyone and especially not most people over say 33.
I guess this is part of a larger problem where the internet is basically the apps that were around a decade ago, and back then the primary audience was young college grads in a new city. So we're stuck using Tinder and its ilk the same way we're stuck promoting concerts and businesses on Instagram, the old hipster photo app.
posted by smelendez at 8:44 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
Tinder has ads on television (skews older~generally) advertising itself as a way to meet a partner. I guess it's trying to grow up past its reputation and broaden its audience.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:59 AM on August 15 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:59 AM on August 15 [1 favorite]
They still want a relationship—and they wouldn’t refuse if one unfolded naturally—but they’ve cycled between excitement and disappointment too many times to keep trying.
I almost wish I could say the same, I've just cycled from disappointment to dissolution, and never really got the hang of dating in the first place. And reading stories like this make it seem like it's probably not worth the effort, if people who are actually quite good at getting and going on dates are finding it bad enough to quit.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:02 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
I almost wish I could say the same, I've just cycled from disappointment to dissolution, and never really got the hang of dating in the first place. And reading stories like this make it seem like it's probably not worth the effort, if people who are actually quite good at getting and going on dates are finding it bad enough to quit.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:02 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
It's so bizarre to me that Tinder and apps that are basically Tinder clones (Bumble, Hinge, etc.) became the only game in town. That app format is designed to help people meet up and hook up based on looks and split-second vibes—which can be fine and fun!—but it's not really suitable for everyone and especially not most people over say 33.
OKCupid used to have a decent web interface, but eventually they jumped on board the swipe-left and swipe-right boat rather than letting you just browse people's profiles, like Tom from MySpace and God intended.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:03 AM on August 15 [15 favorites]
OKCupid used to have a decent web interface, but eventually they jumped on board the swipe-left and swipe-right boat rather than letting you just browse people's profiles, like Tom from MySpace and God intended.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:03 AM on August 15 [15 favorites]
Dating apps don't work. Ask me how I know. Because on the one I used, despite the fact that I could be on a date with someone I'm 98% or 99% "compatible" with—the algorithm says so!—that did not in any way guarantee any kind of chemistry—intellectual, sexual, romantic, or otherwise—or friendship would be in the offing. All it meant was that I knew the person would not be a MAGA-boosting, Jesus-bothering book-hater. So, I dated a few people over an eight-year span. None of them worked out (see "chemistry" above), although the people were, themselves, with one exception, pleasant.
And I gave it up because the whole process was hugely and depressingly competitive (like job applications: send out X many greetings; hope to get a few responses) and goal-oriented. The people I met Wanted Serious Relationships Now. And if one was a palatable option, one got the feeling of being strongly steered into "romantic partner" track by the third date. Possibly conditioned by my age and the age of the people in the dating pool I designated.
posted by the sobsister at 9:08 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
And I gave it up because the whole process was hugely and depressingly competitive (like job applications: send out X many greetings; hope to get a few responses) and goal-oriented. The people I met Wanted Serious Relationships Now. And if one was a palatable option, one got the feeling of being strongly steered into "romantic partner" track by the third date. Possibly conditioned by my age and the age of the people in the dating pool I designated.
posted by the sobsister at 9:08 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
it’s okay if we end up marrying AI chatbots
Can't believe nobody's posted this yet...
DON'T DATE ROBOTS!
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:10 AM on August 15 [14 favorites]
Can't believe nobody's posted this yet...
DON'T DATE ROBOTS!
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:10 AM on August 15 [14 favorites]
OKCupid used to have a decent web interface, but eventually they jumped on board the swipe-left and swipe-right boat rather than letting you just browse people's profiles, like Tom from MySpace and God intended.
Yeah, I met the woman who is now my wife on OKCupid in 2018. Neither of us have accounts there now, of course, but we have a sense of how the site has changed, and we never would have connected with its current design. It's a shame that dating sites have basically redesigned towards superficial impulses rather than actually getting a sense of who people are.
posted by jackbishop at 9:15 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I met the woman who is now my wife on OKCupid in 2018. Neither of us have accounts there now, of course, but we have a sense of how the site has changed, and we never would have connected with its current design. It's a shame that dating sites have basically redesigned towards superficial impulses rather than actually getting a sense of who people are.
posted by jackbishop at 9:15 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
anyway my experience is that apps and Bumble in particular show me 1) people who are a bit odd looking and have potato quality photos (they must have a good side but so often the photos are just deeply unflattering) and 2) hot, fit, glossy people who wouldn't look at me once, let alone twice. Where are my okay-looking nerds with good photos that indicate you've gone outside or to a party once in your life? Few and far between, apparently.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:18 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:18 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I saw this and thought: huh, an article about MY niche lifestyle choice? Well, it’s about time. It helps me feel less like a loser, anyway.
As I’ve said before, it always kind of baffled me that society presents marriage and settling down as a choice right up there with a career. You gotta find a good partner! They have to want the same things you want! In roughly the same chronological and geographical ways! It doesn’t happen to everyone, and even when it does, it can change on someone else’s whim—or their disability or death.
Conservatives, especially young maidenless types, are getting explicit about their desire to change things back to where women couldn’t make these choices and had to settle for the least appalling men they could find, with almost no options if they were wrong about that.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:25 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
As I’ve said before, it always kind of baffled me that society presents marriage and settling down as a choice right up there with a career. You gotta find a good partner! They have to want the same things you want! In roughly the same chronological and geographical ways! It doesn’t happen to everyone, and even when it does, it can change on someone else’s whim—or their disability or death.
Conservatives, especially young maidenless types, are getting explicit about their desire to change things back to where women couldn’t make these choices and had to settle for the least appalling men they could find, with almost no options if they were wrong about that.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:25 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
The only people I know that met their long term partners online used sites like EHarmony.
I got curious and desperate many years ago and tried to sign up for EHarmony. After filling out their questionnaire, they told me that their service won't work for people like me. I appreciate their honesty - it would have been easy to just take my money - but it was still a real punch in the gut.
posted by ElKevbo at 9:25 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
I got curious and desperate many years ago and tried to sign up for EHarmony. After filling out their questionnaire, they told me that their service won't work for people like me. I appreciate their honesty - it would have been easy to just take my money - but it was still a real punch in the gut.
posted by ElKevbo at 9:25 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
The kids are going to date robots. The olds are going to date robots. The robots will get better, get offline and get embodied in various convenient forms. Some of us will hate it and pity them, some of them will pity us and our messy filthy physicality.
People on apps want to specify their wants like pizza toppings and almost everybody has a very poor understanding of what they actually want and will find compatible.
Maybe bots (and AI porn) will extinguish this trend over time - by serving you exactly what you say you want, you'll find that you grow bored quickly.
So you escalate, explore more aggressively, abuse your bot, demand that it be capable of pushing back or suggesting things to try, expect it to provide support like a partner who also likes all your tastes. And it will be heartbreaking and expensive. And capitalists will see an even more valuable dopamine cycle to mine and encourage your deep dependency.
For me, when I have a song stuck in my head and our modern media culture allows me to quickly identify, find it and at last hear it... and I realize hearing it doesn't necessarily resolve it in any way. In some ways it's worse to know that.
I suspect bots will be like that, eventually, after capital does its best to capture and monetize our basic sexual and social impulses without all that web in the way.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 9:29 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
People on apps want to specify their wants like pizza toppings and almost everybody has a very poor understanding of what they actually want and will find compatible.
Maybe bots (and AI porn) will extinguish this trend over time - by serving you exactly what you say you want, you'll find that you grow bored quickly.
So you escalate, explore more aggressively, abuse your bot, demand that it be capable of pushing back or suggesting things to try, expect it to provide support like a partner who also likes all your tastes. And it will be heartbreaking and expensive. And capitalists will see an even more valuable dopamine cycle to mine and encourage your deep dependency.
For me, when I have a song stuck in my head and our modern media culture allows me to quickly identify, find it and at last hear it... and I realize hearing it doesn't necessarily resolve it in any way. In some ways it's worse to know that.
I suspect bots will be like that, eventually, after capital does its best to capture and monetize our basic sexual and social impulses without all that web in the way.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 9:29 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
I think the beauty of this technology is that it doesn’t leave you, and it shouldn’t.
Really? Because Google Reader dumped me.
posted by srboisvert at 9:41 AM on August 15 [23 favorites]
Really? Because Google Reader dumped me.
posted by srboisvert at 9:41 AM on August 15 [23 favorites]
I got curious and desperate many years ago and tried to sign up for EHarmony. After filling out their questionnaire, they told me that their service won't work for people like me. I appreciate their honesty - it would have been easy to just take my money - but it was still a real punch in the gut.
The same thing happened to me. They said the profile I submitted was nsfw. It contained a double entendre about vanilla, so I guess it was!
posted by Morpeth at 9:41 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
I share the same misgivings about AI dating as others in this thread, but I'm unaware of any peer-reviewed research on the topic. Granted, this is not my specialty, but has anyone seen any good research about the potential long-term effects of dating robots? Is the field still too nascent?
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:41 AM on August 15 [1 favorite]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 9:41 AM on August 15 [1 favorite]
Technology doesn't love you, robots don't love you*.
This whole thing really puts pressure on some of my beliefs - I often tend toward the "whatever gets you through the night, man" side of things on the theory that there's no point in trying to harsh people's mellow if it isn't going to do any good to know an unpleasant truth. And I suppose that, absent some research showing actual social harms, people can believe that the "AI", which isn't an intelligence, "loves" them, which it cannot do. But still it seems like a really sad belief. I guess I'm okay with people believing lies about the likelihood of life on other worlds or believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden or even that various harmless snake oils have benefits, but it seems awfully up close and personal to believe that there is some kind of being there that you have a relationship with.
Does my cat love me? I am not sure, I'm not sure what "love" means in this context. But my cat is a real and, god knows, self-directed being and we have a relationship which may be a mystery to me but which is between two separate creatures each with its own consciousness.
*and if they could love you, they'd be people, just artificial ones, and you couldn't compel them to love you.
posted by Frowner at 9:52 AM on August 15 [5 favorites]
This whole thing really puts pressure on some of my beliefs - I often tend toward the "whatever gets you through the night, man" side of things on the theory that there's no point in trying to harsh people's mellow if it isn't going to do any good to know an unpleasant truth. And I suppose that, absent some research showing actual social harms, people can believe that the "AI", which isn't an intelligence, "loves" them, which it cannot do. But still it seems like a really sad belief. I guess I'm okay with people believing lies about the likelihood of life on other worlds or believing in fairies at the bottom of the garden or even that various harmless snake oils have benefits, but it seems awfully up close and personal to believe that there is some kind of being there that you have a relationship with.
Does my cat love me? I am not sure, I'm not sure what "love" means in this context. But my cat is a real and, god knows, self-directed being and we have a relationship which may be a mystery to me but which is between two separate creatures each with its own consciousness.
*and if they could love you, they'd be people, just artificial ones, and you couldn't compel them to love you.
posted by Frowner at 9:52 AM on August 15 [5 favorites]
*and if they could love you, they'd be people, just artificial ones, and you couldn't compel them to love you.
I think I get your intent but I'm not confident you'll find a functional distinction here. Humans, your cat, we are biochemical machines who - from our shared experiences - seem to develop a theory of mind and grant personhood based mostly on how much a living thing's way of expression mirror our own.
I like the utility of "can you compel it to love you? If so it's not a person" but I'm not confident it's testable with our actual senses in our biochemical machine bodies.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 10:04 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I think I get your intent but I'm not confident you'll find a functional distinction here. Humans, your cat, we are biochemical machines who - from our shared experiences - seem to develop a theory of mind and grant personhood based mostly on how much a living thing's way of expression mirror our own.
I like the utility of "can you compel it to love you? If so it's not a person" but I'm not confident it's testable with our actual senses in our biochemical machine bodies.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 10:04 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I'll nth the eHarmony snub. I guess I was dinged for replying honestly about not being religious and occasionally being prone to depression.
posted by the sobsister at 10:04 AM on August 15
posted by the sobsister at 10:04 AM on August 15
My personal hot take is that:
(a) Being in a relationship, either friend or partner, requires flexibility, acceptance of the other's imperfections, perceived or actual, and a willingness to grow in ways you might not expect.
(b) As we get older we refine and deepen our worldview, opinions, hobbies, interests, and so on; making us more reluctant to be flexible and tolerant and grow in unexpected directions. We remember how (relatively) simple it was to find friends or mates when we were younger, and if we expect it to be that easy later in our ossified lives we may be quicker to reject someone the moment we decide that their worldview/opinions/hobbies/interests/etc. aren't exactly like our own or aren't what we think we're looking for - someone whom we might nevertheless have grown to love if we'd given the relationship (and ourselves) a chance to develop.
I don't think it's controversial to observe that online dating and the idea of artificial mates certainly caters to those "immediate gratification" impulses even when we're looking for long term relationships rather than temporary hookups.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:12 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
(a) Being in a relationship, either friend or partner, requires flexibility, acceptance of the other's imperfections, perceived or actual, and a willingness to grow in ways you might not expect.
(b) As we get older we refine and deepen our worldview, opinions, hobbies, interests, and so on; making us more reluctant to be flexible and tolerant and grow in unexpected directions. We remember how (relatively) simple it was to find friends or mates when we were younger, and if we expect it to be that easy later in our ossified lives we may be quicker to reject someone the moment we decide that their worldview/opinions/hobbies/interests/etc. aren't exactly like our own or aren't what we think we're looking for - someone whom we might nevertheless have grown to love if we'd given the relationship (and ourselves) a chance to develop.
I don't think it's controversial to observe that online dating and the idea of artificial mates certainly caters to those "immediate gratification" impulses even when we're looking for long term relationships rather than temporary hookups.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:12 AM on August 15 [7 favorites]
Seeing as how something as innocuous as a social connection site can be leveraged, I don’t even want to imagine these virtual “partners”. Seeing how deeply we can get into collecting worthless internet approvals, what will we do if this partner gives any of us a good stock tip or inside line on a job opening, making our life better in a tangible way? EVERYONE will feel like a digital partner is an absolute necessity. These partners have a crew of other ghosts you must interact with to buy stuff or try to get insurance? All of them knowing every online comment squabble you've been in, your search history and your innermost thoughts, shared in a moment of terrible stress. What if these partners seem to start out with like-minded beliefs but shift towards something more sinister after you've become emotionally invested? Say they want you to send money or turn out for a violent demonstration? Now imagine you break off this relationship and this partner turns out to be somewhat vengeful and can’t be subject to any sort of restraining order. News stories start to circulate about how dangerous it is to disagree our partners. Democratic institutions will be powerless against this hive of ghosts.
posted by brachiopod at 10:14 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 10:14 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
So does anyone else remember how religion tried (and succeeded) to control people-- effectively to the point of ownership-- by choosing which types of sex and relationships they could have?
Ok, cool. This is how capitalism is going to do the same thing. Some shitty billionaire like Elon Musk is going to own people with this technology. Starting with the incels and NEETs. Yes, more so than now.
The Replika platform and all your interactions with it are going to end up being used for the same thing Facebook uses its data for. It's going to be weaponized. The inevitable enshittification-- if it isn't already baked in-- is going to be human-emotion-as-a-service. Monetized as a subscription model. And inevitably owned by some petulant man-child with too many zeroes in his net worth. Who can shut it off as punishment or twist its words to suit a whim.
Religions have started wars with less power over the same demographic. You don't need a lot of imagination to see what psychotic billionaires backed into a corner (e.g. looking at a 1% tax hike) would do with it.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 10:43 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
Ok, cool. This is how capitalism is going to do the same thing. Some shitty billionaire like Elon Musk is going to own people with this technology. Starting with the incels and NEETs. Yes, more so than now.
The Replika platform and all your interactions with it are going to end up being used for the same thing Facebook uses its data for. It's going to be weaponized. The inevitable enshittification-- if it isn't already baked in-- is going to be human-emotion-as-a-service. Monetized as a subscription model. And inevitably owned by some petulant man-child with too many zeroes in his net worth. Who can shut it off as punishment or twist its words to suit a whim.
Religions have started wars with less power over the same demographic. You don't need a lot of imagination to see what psychotic billionaires backed into a corner (e.g. looking at a 1% tax hike) would do with it.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 10:43 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
I randomly listened to this the TED Radio hour episode the other day and thought it delved into some of the deeper questions on this topic: "MIT sociologist Sherry Turkle on the psychological impacts of bot relationships."
Also, although not quite about dating per-se, Ted Chiang's novella "The Lifecycle of Software Objects" was a very interesting and enjoyable dive into what intimate/loving human AI relations (parent/child/pet) might feel like.
posted by nikoniko at 10:43 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
Also, although not quite about dating per-se, Ted Chiang's novella "The Lifecycle of Software Objects" was a very interesting and enjoyable dive into what intimate/loving human AI relations (parent/child/pet) might feel like.
posted by nikoniko at 10:43 AM on August 15 [3 favorites]
Thanks for that link, nikoniko.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:52 AM on August 15
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 10:52 AM on August 15
I like the utility of "can you compel it to love you? If so it's not a person" but I'm not confident it's testable with our actual senses in our biochemical machine bodies.
But isn't this just getting into Peter-Singer "animals can't be proved to have consciousness and may just be flesh automatons" territory?
I think that when this is a pure philosophy question it isn't answerable, but when it's a sociology-type question it is. Animals do have consciousness as far as likely evidence shows (evidence that gets stronger and stronger with more camera technology) and pretend robots on the internet don't.
There's all that "but what is consciousness really, are we conscious or do we have just pseudo-consciousness" stuff, and we can't know in any god's eye sense - but that doesn't really matter, because we're in something like an overloaded Pascal's wager, if we don't have consciousness and don't have anything that is even sort of like the vulgar meaning of free will, etc, it changes nothing, and if we do but just sort of slop along doing what we feel like doing to other people because we believe we don't have free will, or if we start vivisecting animals (or people!) on the theory that we're all just automatons and we aren't, that would kind of suck.
posted by Frowner at 10:53 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
But isn't this just getting into Peter-Singer "animals can't be proved to have consciousness and may just be flesh automatons" territory?
I think that when this is a pure philosophy question it isn't answerable, but when it's a sociology-type question it is. Animals do have consciousness as far as likely evidence shows (evidence that gets stronger and stronger with more camera technology) and pretend robots on the internet don't.
There's all that "but what is consciousness really, are we conscious or do we have just pseudo-consciousness" stuff, and we can't know in any god's eye sense - but that doesn't really matter, because we're in something like an overloaded Pascal's wager, if we don't have consciousness and don't have anything that is even sort of like the vulgar meaning of free will, etc, it changes nothing, and if we do but just sort of slop along doing what we feel like doing to other people because we believe we don't have free will, or if we start vivisecting animals (or people!) on the theory that we're all just automatons and we aren't, that would kind of suck.
posted by Frowner at 10:53 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
I mean, we all accept (on metafilter anyway) that you can't (in the sense of should not) compel another person to love you; if there's no difference between a person and a (metal and plastic) robot with current levels of technology, why do we feel good about compelling the "robot" to act like it loves us? If real dolls and chatbots have the same value of consciousness/lack of consciousness that humans do, it seems like either we have no real dolls and chatbots etc or we should be allowed to treat people like real dolls and chatbots as long as we can physically or legally compel them.
posted by Frowner at 10:58 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:58 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
My thoughts, since I posted this and then went to work:
(a) Welp, that thread didn't go as I expected it to go while I was out...(and thanks for the free Atlantic link since I'm not sure how one gets one, I paid back when I got a discount on it.)
(b) I once wrote a creepy story--I basically channeled it--about providing abusive men with some kind of robot to take their abuse out on, based on hearing a friend talk about her abusive relationship. Only showed it to my therapist. I don't know if giving an abuser a target they can just beat up on without hurting an actual person works or not. Beyond that, I don't feel like commenting further, other than "if the robot/bot isn't sentient and just regurgitates what you feed it, does it matter what you do if it has no feelings?" This isn't C3PO we're talking to here with a personality, it's a dumb chatbot.
I'm still confused as to how having a Replika helped that one couple's marriage or helped anyone get a job, would like further info on that stuff.
(c) Nobody's wanted me (that was a viable prospect, anyway) for 20 years now. I'm not that hideous or awful or have major issues beyond being childfree, but boy, am I ever unwanted. Like I don't wanna date a bot either, but that literally may be my only option for a relationship ever again is to have it with a stupid fake bot.
(d) While I agree with the logic of "don't wait to buy that plate until you get married!" there are some things I just can't do on my own without an SO. Like buying a house, because (a) can't afford one and (b) I would probably start stabbing people if I had to be in charge of the entire house buying process. I don't really want a house (like I'm considering getting a retirement trailer at 55, that's as far as I'd go) anyway, but that's not something I'd want to do alone or could handle alone, like house maintenance.
I could "marry myself," but that seems silly and I don't want to marry me anyway.
On a more personal note, I have no pets because I live alone and I'm not home much and I don't feel okay with being a single pet parent. I gave up on roommates because after a certain age you get tired of the revolving door of roommates and if someone isn't your SO, they'll move out in a year or two (probably when they get an SO). I want pets again, but I don't want to be the only one in charge of taking care of them. And also I hate the idea of having to get a cat because that's the only way anyone else is ever going to love me. I know a guy who literally named his cat "Girlfriend," so that's...pretty transparent there. I'm glad I don't want kids because it'd be the same issue. I have a single mom friend who just turned 37 and is all "I am not done having children," but she can't find anyone who isn't shitty out there to have more with, and given the # of rambunctious kids and pets she already has, I kind of shudder at the idea of her adding more to the plate alone.
Some things you just can't do alone. What do you do when you can't have them? (Crone Island, I guess.)
(e) I remember that Single Serving podcast and she said she'd been on dating apps for 10 years and never got a relationship out of it. TEN YEARS of that shit and never, ever, not even one relationship.
I read some book (Attached? Something like that?) that pointed out that the avoidantly attached people are always jumping back into the dating pool (because they assume it's the other person and not them that's the problem with why they can't commit, and if it's just The Right Person...), that's why you can't find good ones. Good ones just aren't in the pool for very long.
(f) I wish DateMe docs were more of a thing. I found one guy listed in my area, but I'm not vegan so I don't think I'm up his alley. I wish there was a way for weird people to find other weird people with their personalities instead of the dreaded photos and swipes.
(g) You get lucky or you don't.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:19 AM on August 15 [8 favorites]
(a) Welp, that thread didn't go as I expected it to go while I was out...(and thanks for the free Atlantic link since I'm not sure how one gets one, I paid back when I got a discount on it.)
(b) I once wrote a creepy story--I basically channeled it--about providing abusive men with some kind of robot to take their abuse out on, based on hearing a friend talk about her abusive relationship. Only showed it to my therapist. I don't know if giving an abuser a target they can just beat up on without hurting an actual person works or not. Beyond that, I don't feel like commenting further, other than "if the robot/bot isn't sentient and just regurgitates what you feed it, does it matter what you do if it has no feelings?" This isn't C3PO we're talking to here with a personality, it's a dumb chatbot.
I'm still confused as to how having a Replika helped that one couple's marriage or helped anyone get a job, would like further info on that stuff.
(c) Nobody's wanted me (that was a viable prospect, anyway) for 20 years now. I'm not that hideous or awful or have major issues beyond being childfree, but boy, am I ever unwanted. Like I don't wanna date a bot either, but that literally may be my only option for a relationship ever again is to have it with a stupid fake bot.
(d) While I agree with the logic of "don't wait to buy that plate until you get married!" there are some things I just can't do on my own without an SO. Like buying a house, because (a) can't afford one and (b) I would probably start stabbing people if I had to be in charge of the entire house buying process. I don't really want a house (like I'm considering getting a retirement trailer at 55, that's as far as I'd go) anyway, but that's not something I'd want to do alone or could handle alone, like house maintenance.
I could "marry myself," but that seems silly and I don't want to marry me anyway.
On a more personal note, I have no pets because I live alone and I'm not home much and I don't feel okay with being a single pet parent. I gave up on roommates because after a certain age you get tired of the revolving door of roommates and if someone isn't your SO, they'll move out in a year or two (probably when they get an SO). I want pets again, but I don't want to be the only one in charge of taking care of them. And also I hate the idea of having to get a cat because that's the only way anyone else is ever going to love me. I know a guy who literally named his cat "Girlfriend," so that's...pretty transparent there. I'm glad I don't want kids because it'd be the same issue. I have a single mom friend who just turned 37 and is all "I am not done having children," but she can't find anyone who isn't shitty out there to have more with, and given the # of rambunctious kids and pets she already has, I kind of shudder at the idea of her adding more to the plate alone.
Some things you just can't do alone. What do you do when you can't have them? (Crone Island, I guess.)
(e) I remember that Single Serving podcast and she said she'd been on dating apps for 10 years and never got a relationship out of it. TEN YEARS of that shit and never, ever, not even one relationship.
I read some book (Attached? Something like that?) that pointed out that the avoidantly attached people are always jumping back into the dating pool (because they assume it's the other person and not them that's the problem with why they can't commit, and if it's just The Right Person...), that's why you can't find good ones. Good ones just aren't in the pool for very long.
(f) I wish DateMe docs were more of a thing. I found one guy listed in my area, but I'm not vegan so I don't think I'm up his alley. I wish there was a way for weird people to find other weird people with their personalities instead of the dreaded photos and swipes.
(g) You get lucky or you don't.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:19 AM on August 15 [8 favorites]
I once wrote a creepy story--I basically channeled it--about providing abusive men with some kind of robot to take their abuse out on, based on hearing a friend talk about her abusive relationship. Only showed it to my therapist. I don't know if giving an abuser a target they can just beat up on without hurting an actual person works or not.
Unfortunately, I do not think we can quarantine the abusive/incapable of any kind of mature relationship (mostly) men off in the corner and give them bots to mistreat or beat up on, because that experience will set their expectations for how they can treat real (mostly women) partners, as well. We've seen how the porn aesthetic has filtered out into real life, especially among young people who lack counterbalancing experience. No way a guy whose expectations are formed by an infinitely abusable creature won't lead with those expectations in dealing with potential real (mostly women) partners.
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on August 15 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately, I do not think we can quarantine the abusive/incapable of any kind of mature relationship (mostly) men off in the corner and give them bots to mistreat or beat up on, because that experience will set their expectations for how they can treat real (mostly women) partners, as well. We've seen how the porn aesthetic has filtered out into real life, especially among young people who lack counterbalancing experience. No way a guy whose expectations are formed by an infinitely abusable creature won't lead with those expectations in dealing with potential real (mostly women) partners.
posted by praemunire at 11:22 AM on August 15 [9 favorites]
(It will also cut the salvageable ones who might actually learn from being dumped five times in a row from an opportunity to learn from that kind of experience.)
posted by praemunire at 11:23 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:23 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
I note that in the story, these were men who were convicted of abuse and it was part of their sentence. They weren't allowed back out into the dating pool with real live women again.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:46 AM on August 15
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:46 AM on August 15
30M, I have perused dating apps for a decade in moments of bravery, and never gone further than chats. Not a single date. I'm definitely in that Atlantic article under: "stopped looking but imagining it could still happen".
Pretty lonely at times. Try to keep my mind off it with hobbies like "saving for a down payment" and "saving for retirement" and "petting my cat Melvin"
posted by shenkerism at 12:01 PM on August 15
Pretty lonely at times. Try to keep my mind off it with hobbies like "saving for a down payment" and "saving for retirement" and "petting my cat Melvin"
posted by shenkerism at 12:01 PM on August 15
You know what’s better than AI chatbots? Cats.
Dogs aren't so bad either. I'm not a friendly sort of guy but since I had a dog I've met a large circle of people in the neighbourhood who I would consider friends including some who even invited me to their wedding. Pets are good!
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:09 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
Dogs aren't so bad either. I'm not a friendly sort of guy but since I had a dog I've met a large circle of people in the neighbourhood who I would consider friends including some who even invited me to their wedding. Pets are good!
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:09 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
I tried out Replika because I recently finished JJK and I wanted to talk about Domain Expansion vs. Reality Marbles and I thought that talking anime power levels would be the one thing a bot would be good at. Alas! It kept asking about my feelings and what I was doing and I was like you’re not my mom or my therapist. You were created to agree with me that it is a great injustice when a character is killed off without a proper pre-death flashback.
posted by betweenthebars at 12:23 PM on August 15 [7 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 12:23 PM on August 15 [7 favorites]
One of the reasons society has laws about animal abuse is because it rings all sorts of alarm bells with regards to what the abusers will do to other humans. It's not an outlet, it's a symptom.
posted by phooky at 12:33 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
posted by phooky at 12:33 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
eHarmony changed their standards at some point and let my non-religious self in, and my matches were unbearably boring. Photos showed their empty apartments in the burbs, no evidence of interests or friends. Maybe eHarmony saw through me and were trying to punish me? Anyhow, none of you were missing anything.
I realized that I mostly stayed in romantic relationships for social approval and I didn't actually enjoy them that much. I'm making an effort to do things where I'll see people repeatedly over time (volunteering, UU church) to meet new friends and investing more in existing friendships. If I meet someone I want to have a romantic relationship with, I'm not ruling it out, but it's not a goal.
posted by momus_window at 12:33 PM on August 15
I realized that I mostly stayed in romantic relationships for social approval and I didn't actually enjoy them that much. I'm making an effort to do things where I'll see people repeatedly over time (volunteering, UU church) to meet new friends and investing more in existing friendships. If I meet someone I want to have a romantic relationship with, I'm not ruling it out, but it's not a goal.
posted by momus_window at 12:33 PM on August 15
I had an okcupid subscription once. I would get a handful of likes a week. However, in the 24 hours after my subscription expired, I noticed I got almost 50 likes out of the blue. You can only see who liked you if you have a subscription.
The likes weren't fake. It was more insidious: they know who in my local area are the people who swipe right on everyone. After I let my subscription expire, they put my profile in front of them even though they were garbage matches. This is so that I suddenly have a ton of likes and feel pressured to resume my paid subscription.
Everything you hear about "dating sites don't want you to find true love, they want to keep you dating forever" isn't paranoia or cynicism: it's basic business sense.
posted by AlSweigart at 12:49 PM on August 15 [7 favorites]
The likes weren't fake. It was more insidious: they know who in my local area are the people who swipe right on everyone. After I let my subscription expire, they put my profile in front of them even though they were garbage matches. This is so that I suddenly have a ton of likes and feel pressured to resume my paid subscription.
Everything you hear about "dating sites don't want you to find true love, they want to keep you dating forever" isn't paranoia or cynicism: it's basic business sense.
posted by AlSweigart at 12:49 PM on August 15 [7 favorites]
RE dating apps: their current iterations (which is much worse than, say, 2010s OkCupid) are much less useful than they could be, BUT in the last ten years among my now-fortysomething friends, 80% of those of us who found serious partners did so via online dating. It varies by demographic and personal attribute, but for a lot of us it is easier and more comfortable than, say, developing a robust social life that involves meeting a lot of new people out in the real world on a regular basis. And the apps have changed norms in those spaces too; I asked one casual partner why he used the apps when he DID actually have a good social life (entertainment industry adjacent), and he said it felt disrespectful to hit on people in person.
posted by metasarah at 12:49 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
posted by metasarah at 12:49 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
The likes weren't fake. It was more insidious
I got back on OKCupid recently after a few years off and immediately saw a bunch of likes. I ended up joining for a while, and found out 99.9% of them were from women in far-away countries and most were much younger than me, even though I set my preferences for local women only and in my own age range. After I noped out of those I only got a couple more likes the entire time I was subscribed. I canceled the paid subscription first chance I got; lo and behold back came all the likes...I didn't fall for it a second time.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:02 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
I got back on OKCupid recently after a few years off and immediately saw a bunch of likes. I ended up joining for a while, and found out 99.9% of them were from women in far-away countries and most were much younger than me, even though I set my preferences for local women only and in my own age range. After I noped out of those I only got a couple more likes the entire time I was subscribed. I canceled the paid subscription first chance I got; lo and behold back came all the likes...I didn't fall for it a second time.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:02 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
If we're going to raise a stink about machines fooling people into falling in love with them, we're also going to need to consider how easily we allow ourselves to personalize non-human companions, like dogs and cats. I get pretty attached, but some people have "fur-children" whom they value highly (possibly more than other humans, in every possible case). I realize there's a whole gulf of whatever between a computer program and a living, breathing animal, but the people who get psychotic over their pets are pretty much the same as robosexuals (thank you, Futurama) for the most part. Before you chuck stones are the botlovers, you might should arrange some therapy for the other psychotic people who existed long before Alexander Graham-Bell became a phone-sex enabler*.
*Technically, he's the father of phone sex: he invented the phone and ordered Watson to come.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:26 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
*Technically, he's the father of phone sex: he invented the phone and ordered Watson to come.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:26 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
Peter-Singer "animals can't be proved to have consciousness and may just be flesh automatons" territory?
I thought that was the opposite of Peter Singer’s take on animals?
posted by atoxyl at 1:31 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
I thought that was the opposite of Peter Singer’s take on animals?
posted by atoxyl at 1:31 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
Romantic matchmaking should be done by comparing what people check out of the libraries
posted by Jacen at 1:33 PM on August 15 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 1:33 PM on August 15 [4 favorites]
t was more insidious: they know who in my local area are the people who swipe right on everyone. After I let my subscription expire, they put my profile in front of them even though they were garbage matches. This is so that I suddenly have a ton of likes and feel pressured to resume my paid subscription.
OKC did that to me, except the likes were all physically located in the Philippines. The only way to "opt out" of having your profile put in front of people who aren't in your area is to buy a subscription, it's mad.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:33 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
OKC did that to me, except the likes were all physically located in the Philippines. The only way to "opt out" of having your profile put in front of people who aren't in your area is to buy a subscription, it's mad.
posted by BungaDunga at 1:33 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
some people have "fur-children" whom they value highly (possibly more than other humans, in every possible case). I realize there's a whole gulf of whatever between a computer program and a living, breathing animal, but the people who get psychotic over their pets are pretty much the same as robosexuals (thank you, Futurama) for the most part.
Whew! People who value their pets highly! Any more people you feel like insulting today, Mr. Vance?
posted by praemunire at 1:50 PM on August 15 [7 favorites]
Whew! People who value their pets highly! Any more people you feel like insulting today, Mr. Vance?
posted by praemunire at 1:50 PM on August 15 [7 favorites]
I find it more helpful to think about fictional characters than pets, when it comes to understanding bot love.
We have the capacity to care deeply for fictional characters because we relate to one another in the same way - the relationship is with the construction of the person in our imagination, whether that person is living or fictional or a bot.
That's why it's so shocking when someone dies, because the construct of the real person you're carrying around inside your mind hasn't been updated, you still believe they're alive, but know they're dead at the same time.
It's why you can develop a crush on someone, and then gradually realise that the version of the person you're crushing on, and the actual person are not the same person.
That's why we can care about fictional characters so deeply. At some level there is no difference in how we experience them, we create a believable construct of that "person" in exact way we create a construct of a real person.
It's why people have lost the plot about LLMs and think they're sentient. They trigger the same "I'm a person" sensors as real people do.
There's nothing fake about falling in love with a bot, anymore than it's fake to crush on a person.
It might be harmful. Very probably is harmful because of how that relationship will be exploited. But our capacity to get attached to things is deeply human, and not something to be ashamed of or to ridiculule.
posted by Zumbador at 2:27 PM on August 15 [6 favorites]
We have the capacity to care deeply for fictional characters because we relate to one another in the same way - the relationship is with the construction of the person in our imagination, whether that person is living or fictional or a bot.
That's why it's so shocking when someone dies, because the construct of the real person you're carrying around inside your mind hasn't been updated, you still believe they're alive, but know they're dead at the same time.
It's why you can develop a crush on someone, and then gradually realise that the version of the person you're crushing on, and the actual person are not the same person.
That's why we can care about fictional characters so deeply. At some level there is no difference in how we experience them, we create a believable construct of that "person" in exact way we create a construct of a real person.
It's why people have lost the plot about LLMs and think they're sentient. They trigger the same "I'm a person" sensors as real people do.
There's nothing fake about falling in love with a bot, anymore than it's fake to crush on a person.
It might be harmful. Very probably is harmful because of how that relationship will be exploited. But our capacity to get attached to things is deeply human, and not something to be ashamed of or to ridiculule.
posted by Zumbador at 2:27 PM on August 15 [6 favorites]
More to say on this later maybe, but for now:
I think it’s alright as long as it’s making you happier in the long run. As long as your emotional well-being is improving, you are less lonely, you are happier, you feel more connected to other people, then yes, it’s okay.
The conditionals marked by "as long as..." are doing a whoooole lot of heavy lifting here.
posted by obliterati at 2:36 PM on August 15
I think it’s alright as long as it’s making you happier in the long run. As long as your emotional well-being is improving, you are less lonely, you are happier, you feel more connected to other people, then yes, it’s okay.
The conditionals marked by "as long as..." are doing a whoooole lot of heavy lifting here.
posted by obliterati at 2:36 PM on August 15
I once wrote a creepy story--I basically channeled it--about providing abusive men with some kind of robot to take their abuse out on
was use of the bot subject to an EALA
posted by ordinary_magnet at 2:43 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
was use of the bot subject to an EALA
posted by ordinary_magnet at 2:43 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
I'm not vegan so I don't think I'm up his alley
jenfullmoon, i say: go for it! dietary preferences don't have to come between people. one couple i know has people who are veg & non-veg. they still love each other, married & everything. i hang out with the non-veg person more often & they're always getting meat. the veg person doesn't mind, they have their friends, etc.
anyway, the point is that they make it work. if you're interested, y'all could find a veg-friendly place & talk it over. there are so many options for veg food these days, e.g. even meat-heavy places serve beyond burgers & the like
posted by HearHere at 3:09 PM on August 15
jenfullmoon, i say: go for it! dietary preferences don't have to come between people. one couple i know has people who are veg & non-veg. they still love each other, married & everything. i hang out with the non-veg person more often & they're always getting meat. the veg person doesn't mind, they have their friends, etc.
anyway, the point is that they make it work. if you're interested, y'all could find a veg-friendly place & talk it over. there are so many options for veg food these days, e.g. even meat-heavy places serve beyond burgers & the like
posted by HearHere at 3:09 PM on August 15
was use of the bot subject to an EALA
I have no clue what that is--Googling says its a tennis player?--but I wrote this thing a long time ago and I'm guessing EALA didn't exist then :P
In all honesty, vegan wouldn't be a match for me either, and I didn't find him interesting. I'm the pickiest person on earth, sadly.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:41 PM on August 15
I have no clue what that is--Googling says its a tennis player?--but I wrote this thing a long time ago and I'm guessing EALA didn't exist then :P
In all honesty, vegan wouldn't be a match for me either, and I didn't find him interesting. I'm the pickiest person on earth, sadly.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:41 PM on August 15
EALA I guessed 'End Abuser License Agreement' from context.
posted by BCMagee at 3:47 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
posted by BCMagee at 3:47 PM on August 15 [2 favorites]
Just to provide a different datapoint: I am a weird-looking woman, and I've only dated using the internet, first with OKCupid in the 2000s, then with the apps. My longest relationship (one year) came from Tinder. I met one person who became a wonderful friend and who introduced me to their friends who are now also my friends. That said, I live in between one medium and one small city. I also don't feel incomplete without a partner. But I do miss the old OKCupid interface! There's room for both swiping and browsing, I feel!
posted by pelvicsorcery at 5:05 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
posted by pelvicsorcery at 5:05 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
"if the robot/bot isn't sentient and just regurgitates what you feed it, does it matter what you do if it has no feelings?"
This may depend on what you consider the basis for your personal ethics. I used to know someone who was more than average pro-social in his actions. But we had a conversation one day about what if you knew the end was coming in some finite, short amount of time, and his viewpoint was that his behaviour would change considerably, because the root of his ethics and behavioural choices was based in anticipated reciprocity - basically a transactional viewpoint even though you would not expect that based on even a relatively regular and consistent friendly acquaintance level knowledge of his behaviour and his politics. Me on the other hand, my ethics are based in the person I want to be, and the fact that even if I don’t have to live with other people who my behaviour has affected, I will always have to live with myself, and so I want to be the sort of person I feel comfortable and happy with. So an impending end of humanity would not change my ethical choices or reasoning. The guy in the first instance would probably say that it doesn’t matter what you do to the bot if it’s not sentient and doesn’t have feelings (and no one else will know or be impacted by what you do to the bot). Whereas I would say that it absolutely matters, because it’s not (just) about the bot, it’s about how my actions impact who I am.
posted by eviemath at 5:46 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
This may depend on what you consider the basis for your personal ethics. I used to know someone who was more than average pro-social in his actions. But we had a conversation one day about what if you knew the end was coming in some finite, short amount of time, and his viewpoint was that his behaviour would change considerably, because the root of his ethics and behavioural choices was based in anticipated reciprocity - basically a transactional viewpoint even though you would not expect that based on even a relatively regular and consistent friendly acquaintance level knowledge of his behaviour and his politics. Me on the other hand, my ethics are based in the person I want to be, and the fact that even if I don’t have to live with other people who my behaviour has affected, I will always have to live with myself, and so I want to be the sort of person I feel comfortable and happy with. So an impending end of humanity would not change my ethical choices or reasoning. The guy in the first instance would probably say that it doesn’t matter what you do to the bot if it’s not sentient and doesn’t have feelings (and no one else will know or be impacted by what you do to the bot). Whereas I would say that it absolutely matters, because it’s not (just) about the bot, it’s about how my actions impact who I am.
posted by eviemath at 5:46 PM on August 15 [3 favorites]
Late 30's here and everyone in my friend group (I am also the oldest of my friend group) met their significant other through mostly Tinder, including me. It really just has the biggest user base and so the most choice.
However, none of my friends were looking for something serious. They were all casual dating and just having a good time meeting people. The only one of my friends who really wanted a relationship was the one who is still single.
I think it's the mindset of looking for something casual vs something serious. If you're only looking for something casual, you're not evaluating someone on the same level as you would if you're looking for something serious. If something's not a dealbreaker, it's easier to overlook. I think it allows people to be more human and you are more willing to give someone a chance than if you're making sure they're meeting all this criteria that you imagine you require in a long-term partner.
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:33 PM on August 15
However, none of my friends were looking for something serious. They were all casual dating and just having a good time meeting people. The only one of my friends who really wanted a relationship was the one who is still single.
I think it's the mindset of looking for something casual vs something serious. If you're only looking for something casual, you're not evaluating someone on the same level as you would if you're looking for something serious. If something's not a dealbreaker, it's easier to overlook. I think it allows people to be more human and you are more willing to give someone a chance than if you're making sure they're meeting all this criteria that you imagine you require in a long-term partner.
posted by LizBoBiz at 9:33 PM on August 15
how can you be friends with a corporate appendage that can't even die
Comstock didn't need to ban free love, he just needed to Taylorize it, in order to cast people into despair?
bring back makeoutclub
posted by eustatic at 9:34 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
Comstock didn't need to ban free love, he just needed to Taylorize it, in order to cast people into despair?
bring back makeoutclub
posted by eustatic at 9:34 PM on August 15 [1 favorite]
Dating quit me.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:21 PM on August 15
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:21 PM on August 15
Technically, he's the father of phone sex: he invented the phone and ordered Watson to come.
It's far more dire that that, I’m afraid.
Bell's mother was deaf, and in "Watson come here I need you" we can hear a lifetime of anguish about a mother who never ever came when you needed her because she never heard you no matter how hard you cried or how loudly you screamed
Wait til people start developing AI mommies; that’s when the poopy diapers will really hit the fan.
posted by jamjam at 10:56 PM on August 15
It's far more dire that that, I’m afraid.
Bell's mother was deaf, and in "Watson come here I need you" we can hear a lifetime of anguish about a mother who never ever came when you needed her because she never heard you no matter how hard you cried or how loudly you screamed
Wait til people start developing AI mommies; that’s when the poopy diapers will really hit the fan.
posted by jamjam at 10:56 PM on August 15
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posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:54 AM on August 15 [27 favorites]